# Shamrock vs. Gracie



## Black Guy (Oct 16, 2006)

i wish i seen this!! i was watchin the play by play on sherdog...they said Gracie took first round, then in second round, Frank lands two knees to Renzo's head while on the ground...and Frank gets dusqualified!! FRANK LOST THE BOUT!! im so happy! but i wish i saw it..


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

One_Love said:


> i watched it and i dont think he did it on purpose.
> Shamrock would have won imo.


agree. IMO it wasnt intentional by frank. kind of got screwed over. apparently it seems like herbs not a fan of the shamrocks. owell frank would have ended up winning anyways.


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

I don't know, I didn't actually see it but from what I read it didn't really sound like an illegal maneuver. Seems retarded to not be able to knee to the head when you're in side mount. It's not realistic nor does it let fighters utilize all of their abilities. Many rules make sense (No gouging, hair pulling, small joint manipulation) for fighter safety, but things like that (And the UFC's "no kneeing downed opponents) are kind of retarded in my opinion.

It seems like the better fighter lost because of a technicality. Ah well, if Gracie can be proud of that win than that's sad for him.


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

I'm happy Renzo won but I'd rather had seen him submit Frank instead of winning by DQ. Anti jiu jutsu my a$$, Frank needs to work on that sh*t.


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## buo (Oct 15, 2006)

i just saw it..I don't know what the hell Shamrock was thinking...he was loosing the ground game to Renzo, so he got DQed w/ the illegal knees to the back of the head. All Frank was saying was he was "old school" and not aware of the "new" rules..really disapointing...I'm a fan of both, but the cheap shots (illegal knees)was, IMO intentional. Before the stoppage, Frank landed a few solid punches, but Renzo was able to neutralize him on the ground. I'm still iffy on the stand-up count they have...really works against bjj guys like Renzo...he was working on a submission but Herb Dean would stand em up...


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## baz00ca (Nov 22, 2006)

well...i wanted Gracie to win to shut up Frankie...but i would rather have a clean win than a DQ. Heard they put Renzo in a neck brace but he walked out under his own steam. how hard were the knees? did they look unintentional on the replay? could it be changed to a NC later


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## ShockeyTime (Oct 11, 2006)

Gotta Tell ya. This Smells!!!!! Shamrock won this fight, gracie gets shamrock down then proceeds to Lay on him Forever, Doing NOTHING!!!!! I Know none of us got hit but those knees looked rather harmless....

I Think one of 2 things, this fight was Smelly OR gracie QUIT!!!! gracie just layed on top of Shamrock and did NOTHING, Again this fight is either stinky or renzo Quit!!!!


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

Bonnar426 said:


> I'm happy Renzo won but I'd rather had seen him submit Frank instead of winning by DQ. Anti jiu jutsu my a$$, Frank needs to work on that sh*t.


IMO frank would have ended up winning anyways but thats just my opinion. kinda sad that another shamrock got screwed over..by the same referee. its getting old.


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

Lloyd said:


> Keep dreaming! Renzo was tired and quit! Shamrock got screwed!


Herb Dean warned him twice not to knee him in the head and he did it anyways. Frank screwed himself.


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

ShockeyTime said:


> Gotta Tell ya. This Smells!!!!! Shamrock won this fight, gracie gets shamrock down then proceeds to Lay on him Forever, Doing NOTHING!!!!! I Know none of us got hit but those knees looked rather harmless....
> 
> I Think one of 2 things, this fight was Smelly OR gracie QUIT!!!! gracie just layed on top of Shamrock and did NOTHING, Again this fight is either stinky or renzo Quit!!!!


yeah im thinking the same thing.


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## TheJame (Sep 3, 2006)

There seems to be a few different threads about this show floating around, but I think I'll stick to this one. Where da moderatin' at!?

The Bennett/Noons fight was actually pretty good, and ended with an awesome knockout. I thought Bennett was hurt too, but that dude has a head full of iron. The post-fight trash talk makes him all the more entertaining. 
Carano vs. Kedzie was an awesome war. Kedzie got desperate pretty early in the fight, but still managed to hang in there and take a hell of a beating. I don't think it's fully set in what the meaning of that fight has done for females in mixed martial arts. Carano is gonna make some noise. Major props to Kedzie, too. 
Loiseau looked exactly like he did in his fight with Mike Swick; he looked like he didn't want to be there. I was impressed with Joe, who's last name escapes me. I've never heard of him but it's apparent he's been around for a while. Wouldn't be surprised to see him fight in the UFC. 
Antonio Silva is another guy I've never heard of, but he put a hurtin' on Cabbage and put him away early. Anyone that can finish Cabbage has got to be tough. 
Gracie/Shamrock started out great. It was apparent that Gracie was doing a good job of controlling Shamrock on the ground, although the Elite XC's stand-up rule kind of interfered with his game-plan. Shamrock was also doing a good job of using his striking. It's unfortunate it ended the way it did, it could have ended up being a pretty damn good fight. 

Fight of the night definitely goes to Carano/Kedzie.


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## ShockeyTime (Oct 11, 2006)

Bonnar426 said:


> Herb Dean warned him twice not to knee him in the head and he did it anyways. Frank screwed himself.


>
>
I've always thought herb dean was an idiot, tonight sealed it, he let renzo lay there FOREVER on top of shamronk and do NOTHING!!!!!! Zippo, and if he were so worried about the knees, He did'nt seem to worried after he finally broke up renzo just laying there, but after renzo got up and started looking funny, err IMO acting n Quitting, dean then look confused on what to do...

Hell even when they asked dean what he thought, he looked clueless and scared to answer....

I'll say it, if i did'nt know better I'd say renzo QUIT or this fight WAS rigged for Future viewers, and I'm shocked to be truthfull...

ST


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

Lloyd said:


> LOL u mean he warned him once and stood there an watched as he done it again. He could have stepped in and prevented the second one! Gracie fighting is a thing of the past. Quit hanging on! Its kinda like how Mike tyson was washed up years before anyone could accept it! Dude its a new day, Renzo was very unimpressive!


Even if you were right and Herb only warned him once that should have been enough. Shamrock didn't listen. Besides, how was Herb suppose to pervent it. Did you want him to jump in front of Renzo and take the knee shots. Or maybe you just want him to hold Frankie's hand all night long because he didn't know the rules.


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## theboz19 (Jun 30, 2006)

While standing in the clinch Frank threw several punches to the back of the head, was warned, threw more punches to the back of the head, and was warned some more. Then when Renzo took him down he threw MORE punches to the back of the head. Was he trying to get DQ'd? 

Someone explain the decision to me. Is he DQ'd because they were knees to the head while in a down position or was he DQ'd because they were knees to the back of the head? Either way I do not understand the DQ and this is why: 1. If the rule is "NO KNEES TO THE HEAD OF A DOWN OPPONENT" there should clearly be an exception if YOU ARE ON THE BOTTOM. If the rule is no HITTING the back of the head/neck there has to be some forgiveness if the guy is turning his head. I know that this forgiveness is usually granted to punchers when their opponents turn their heads to avoid getting hit on the side of the face.

IMO it should have been declared a no contest. If I duck because I think you are throwing a punch but you are coming with an inside leg kick and you hit my groin, should you be disqualified?


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## baz00ca (Nov 22, 2006)

^as you explained it he broke the rules several times. several "accidents" turn into an intentional. so if he accidently kicks you in the groan, the ref will give you a moment to recover. if you can't continue i believe a DQ is what happens. but rarely does that happen as noone wants to win like that


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

Sounds like Renzo was tired and was taking the win no matter how he had to get it. Laugh out friggin' loud.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

frank was winning the fight. its not too big of a deal that he got dq'd. he needs the hit to his ego. renzo put up a good effort, but the gracie way is really falling by the wayside. they're all great fighters, but other fighters have not only caught up to them, they've surpased them in ability.


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## kwylogb (Oct 25, 2006)

Shamrock definitely hit him with illegal blows but that second knee only hit the back of his head because he turned his head after the first one landed. I agree with ShocketTime somewhat because Herb Dean should've jumped in when the first knee was landed and issued a warning right away. I think Herb said in the post fight interview that he had warened him earlier in the fight about rabbit punches to the head but I don't think Frank was intentionally aiming at the head. Oh well...pretty dissappointing overall.

Overall tonight's EliteXc was a C at best. The best fight was the women's. 
1. Noons vs. Bennett = quick KO for Bennett
2. Carano vs. Kedzie = Carano was too good but Kedzie at least fought back.
3. Loiseau vs. Villasenor = Loiseau should take a year or two off. He's just been outclassed his last 3 fights period. He doesn't fight until the last round.
4. Silva vs. Correira = Silva was too big for Cabbage. He didn't stand a chance. I know where Cabbage gets the name, he resembled a cabbage tonight. (ROUND)
5. Shamrock vs. Gracie = DQ, Gracie was doing a LNP with no GNP at all. Shamrock couldn't stop the takedown though so he was losing that fight. I don't think the "Warning" with the 15 second clock was used correctly.


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

Calibretto9 said:


> Sounds like Renzo was tired and was taking the win no matter how he had to get it. Laugh out friggin' loud.


he also had a grin on his face as he was walking out the building in the post fight footage. i bet he was thinking "yay i beat frank shamrock and i didnt have to do anything thank god!" pssh

btw i wonder if frank still wants to fight for the exc despite what happened. he looked pretty pissed and probably feels screwed. idk i guess we'll have to see.


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## TheJame (Sep 3, 2006)

It's too bad there's gonna be a lot of stupid, stupid talk about the main event.


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## Beeno (Jul 28, 2006)

I was so pissed I dvr'd this fight and it cut off! I went for 2hrs 15 mins as it was in the guide, but the last thing I saw was Renzo get a neck brace and that was it. Can anybody fill me in (that saw it) on what happened after that? I know it ended up being DQ'd but did they interview anybody? Was it a doctor stoppage thing or just Herb?


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## TheJame (Sep 3, 2006)

They didn't interview Renzo but showed him being helped away to the hospital. They interviewed Shamrock in the ring, who totally no sold the fact that he was repeatedly warned for illegal blows, then kneed Renzo twice more to get DQ'd. The majority of what he said was "I'm old school and I came to fight."


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## brief (Nov 19, 2006)

IMO Renzo was on his way to a decision victory. Shamrock's strike's weren't that crisp. He got taken down easily too many times. He is pretty tough to put a submission on, but he was still being controlled. It looked like the second round was going to look like the first, and I believe it would have, had the bout continued. And the third would look the same. Renzo by decision, had the bout continued. IMO


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

brief said:


> IMO Renzo was on his way to a decision victory. Shamrock's strike's weren't that crisp. He got taken down easily too many times. He is pretty tough to put a submission on, but he was still being controlled. It looked like the second round was going to look like the first, and I believe it would have, had the bout continued. And the third would look the same. Renzo by decision, had the bout continued. IMO


Interesting view. I'm still waiting for someone to post the fight so I can see it firsthand.


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## MMA1990 (Aug 1, 2006)

Now im not gonna say I know what exactly happened but I noticed acouple things. 
1. Renzo was definantly winning rounds 1 and 2

2.The knees looked intentinal (to me)

3.Shamrock didnt seem to care when he loss

So this leaves me with one question...Whats worst loosing fair and sqaure or getting DQed so you could get a second chance at a fight your appearing to loose?

Now this may not be the case but do you think its possible Frank knew he was loosing and DQed himself knowing he could get a rematch? I mean he didnt seem to give a crap he loss the fight, he could have actaully been releaved. Plus you can see him grabing around Renzos head and looking at his neck while he kneed it.Possibly Frank DQed himself so he wouldnt legitimently loose. Im definantly not saying this is what happend. Just something to think about. This fight was definantly odd and there are some unanswered questions.but the truth is only known by Frank and Renzo. Keep in mind I practice BJJ so I am biased towards Renzo.

Also I dont see why so many of you are saying "Frank would have won anyway" Renzo was basically taking Shammrock down at will and he may have not afflicted tons of damage on Frank but he was defiantly neutralizing him. Frank had no answer for Renzos ground game other than throughing illgeal knees.

The bottom line is Renzo got the win in a fight which looked like he was on his way to winning.


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## MMA1990 (Aug 1, 2006)

kds13 said:


> frank was winning the fight.


WHAT!? Did you watch this fight or just see the sherdog play-by-play. Its very apparent that Renzo was controlling Shamrock in the fight. You should watch the fight again Renzo was doing good IMO.


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## herton17 (Sep 13, 2006)

MMA1990 said:


> WHAT!? Did you watch this fight or just see the sherdog play-by-play. Its very apparent that Renzo was controlling Shamrock in the fight. You should watch the fight again Renzo was doing good IMO.


I dunno man, he might have landed the takedowns but Frank was certainly doing much more damage from the bottom. Those liver shot knees are brutal. Renzo was getting tired, and I m not just saying that cause Frank said so. 

The shots were more to the back of the neck, not head - I dont know what happened to the "tough" Renzo. He used to be cool. When Cesar came out, he had the "we just screwed you over" look on his face, it all seems awful sketchy to me. 
Renzo was really doing a lot of the Lay n Gay ... I dont think I ve ever dissed lay and pray guys like Arona, but Renzo had side control and couldnt do a damn thing. It was pathetic, I used to really like the guy - the Saku fight is legendary, but that was awful. Then again, the Gracies found a way to win. Whooooohoooo.
Mehhh...I m disgruntled and disappointed


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## Grabaka (Oct 5, 2006)

Renzo was definitely winning the fight IMO. He was taking Shamrock down almost at will, he controlled the fight on the ground, and I just don't think Shamrock did enough damage with strikes to win either round. I'm not saying Renzo was completely dominating, but I just see him winning on the scorecards. 

He definitely answered alot of questions about where Shamrock is as a fighter at this point in his career. It's sad that Renzo is the best fighter that Shamrock has fought since Tito in 99. I hope he wakes up now.


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## baz00ca (Nov 22, 2006)

Grabaka said:


> Renzo was definitely winning the fight IMO. He was taking Shamrock down almost at will, he controlled the fight on the ground, and I just don't think Shamrock did enough damage with strikes to win either round. I'm not saying Renzo was completely dominating, but I just see him winning on the scorecards.
> 
> He definitely answered alot of questions about where Shamrock is as a fighter at this point in his career. It's sad that Renzo is the best fighter that Shamrock has fought since Tito in 99. * I hope he wakes up now.*


maybe he will wake up just on time for Baroni to put him to sleep :laugh:


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## mma1357 (Sep 24, 2006)

Calibretto9 said:


> Sounds like Renzo was tired and was taking the win no matter how he had to get it. Laugh out friggin' loud.


I can't believe so many of you are commenting on the fight when you haven't even seen it. 

Renzo was controlling the entire fight. He took Frank down multiple times and once they were on the ground Renzo was dominating Frank. Renzo always kept a very tight side control and was starting to set things up (such as an armbar). However, showtime apparently has a rule that if you are not active enough on the ground then they start a 15 sec timer. After the 15 seconds are up the ref stands them back up. When this happened, it looked like Renzo might have been working towards an armbar. These rules were a huge advantage to Frank. Let me ask you this, where is the rule that says if there is not enough action in the stand up the ref can stop the fight and put both fighters on the ground? All of this talk about "Renzo was tired and about to go out" is rediculous. Anyone in this thread that has said that has just proven to everyone they know nothing about this fight. Renzo was ON TOP of Frank for almost the ENTIRE FIGHT.

First, what you guys need to understand is that there are many steps in BJJ. Even basic things like armbars require steps you must take for it to work. You can't just grab a guys hand and try to throw your legs around him. Renzo was being patient because he didn't want to let Frank get back up.

Second, what none of you seem to know is that if you have someone in side control you can take your knee (the one closest to your opponents head) and just slam it down on his head. However, the rules dont allow that. So if there was no "no knees to the head" rule, Renzo could have done a lot of damage to Frank if he wanted to.



> but the gracie way is really falling by the wayside. they're all great fighters, but other fighters have not only caught up to them, they've surpased them in ability.


Wow. You couldn't be more wrong. This fight proved that the Gracie way still works just like it did years ago. I have already said this, but for the slow learners, Renzo closed the distance, took Frank down multiple times. Once they were on the ground Frank had no chance of getting up. All he could do was knee Renzo to the body and head. He couldn't get back to half guard, he couldn't go belly down and grab both of Renzo's leg to get out of side control, he couldn't do ANYTHING. If they were actually allowed to keep the fight on the ground then Renzo would have probably gotten a submission. 

You guys do know that one of the times Frank was on his back he actually looked up at the ref as if to say "Renzo is being active, please help me and stand the fight back up." That isn't a sign of a fighter who is about to win. That is a sign of a fighter who doesn't have a good enough ground game to get back to his feet and he wants the refs help. Renzo wasn't inactive, Frank was. This is happening more and more in MMA now. Fighters learn just enough BJJ to be able to defend a little bit. Once the fights hits the ground they do everything they can to stall. All they try to do is stall long enough so the fight can be stood back up. Frank was the one stalling.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

MMA1990 said:


> Now im not gonna say I know what exactly happened but I noticed acouple things.
> 1. Renzo was definantly winning rounds 1 and 2
> 
> 2.The knees looked intentinal (to me)
> ...


1. Agreed. Frank won the standup portions, but was taken down with ease, and controlled.

2. The knee's were definitely intentional. After getting warned by Herb Dean, Frank still throws them? What the hell?

3. Of course he doesn't care. Frank can now piss & moan about the DQ, and people will still believe in his carny folk talk. Frank is my all time favorite, but he didn't win me over last night. I will say that he was in full unintentional hilarity though. 

Frank really needs to release a comedy album. Just have him talk about how great he is, and how he likes to sword fight.

This main event sucked. I hope Baroni destroy's Frankie.


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## mma1357 (Sep 24, 2006)

Damone said:


> 2. The knee's were definitely intentional. After getting warned by Herb Dean, Frank still throws them? What the hell?


Exactly.

I just watched the fight again and noticed something very important. Frank had his arm around Renzo's head and was pulling his head towards him, after he would pull Renzo's head he would then move his arm completely out of the way and then knee Renzo in the same spot his arm used to be. He did this twice. He would pull his head, move his arm and then knee Renzo. If Frank didn't know where his knees were landing and was just "fighting" then how did he know to move his arm away from Renzo's head right before his knee would hit Renzo?


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

Gracie was winning that fight. How can you possibly think otherwise unless you dont understand mma or have never participated in it. Somebody said that shamrocks knees to the liver from being pinned in side control were devastating. Nobody I have ever seen has tapped because of knees from that position on the bottom. That said it was cool to see gracie pin franks arm and start to elbow franks face as frank was trapped in side control ALA Matt hughes Carlos newton, Frank was saved by the bell. Shamrocks anti jujitsu training was nothing. He has a better stand up game though.


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## TheJame (Sep 3, 2006)

I'm not going to question the motives of Frank Shamrock. Only he knew if he threw that fight, and frankly, I don't even care if he did. I'm more looking forward to his fight with Baroni, as it's all but official that these two will be fighting.


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## x2lacrosse (Sep 27, 2006)

It's a shame this fight ended the way it did. It looked pretty good 'til the end. True, Gracie got Frank on the ground a few times, BUT, he did pretty much nothing but lay on him. Frank at least threw some body knees.

Herb Dean needs to be sent back to MMA ref school or something. This should have been a N.C. if anything. After the 1st 'intentional, illegal knee to the head', Herb should have stopped the fight momentarily and either stood them up or given a more clear warning to Frank. The 2 knees were not that close in succession that he did not have time to do this. A complete crock in my opinion. If you ask me, Gracie quit. He had Frank where he wanted him several times and couldn't do squat with it. He knew this and knew he was screwed b/c he knew the fight would get to its feet again and then he could possibly be KO'ed like Cesar was. Let's do it again, that's all I can say.


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

IMO renzo may have taken frank down with ease but he didnt do anything at all, just laid there i.e lay n pray. *sighs* and we all know here that we dont like that type of fighting..unless your a fan of tito. i still think frank would have won that fight if it lasted longer. it would just have been a matter of time.


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

Frank would not have won that fight. Yeah, he was doing good standing up, but how long was he standing. His takedown defense sucked and his ground game sucked even worse. Thier are fighters out thier like Chuck Liddell who would have been able to scrambe and get up after being put on the ground. Frank couldn't do any of that. Its like I said before, his anti-BJJ sucked some serious a$$.


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## nhshmekel (Oct 30, 2006)

I'm neither a Gracie or Shamrock bandwagon rider...

The knees to Renzo's head landed by Frank looked downright nasty to me. I don't believe for a minute that Gracie quit like a coward. He was severely rocked, as anyone would have been (besides Mark Hunt or Cabbage?) after a couple of nasty heavy blows like that. 

On the other hand, there was really nothing Frank could have done besides what he did in the position he was in at the bottom except for laying there and doing nothing. If Gracie had used his left knee just one time to deliver a similar knee to the head blow while he was on top for the majority of the fight (and he had plenty of opportunity to do so) the fight would have been over long before the 2nd round began.

Before it ended I saw it pretty much as a draw. Gracie imposed his will and spent 80% of the fight on top. Then again, Frank's knees to the ribs looked like they were doing as much or more damage than Renzo did from the top. 

Bottom line is that Renzo could have ended the fight and gotten DQ'd the same way long before Frank if he had chosen to do so. He didn't. Not sure who would have won if it wasn't stopped. Renzo looked like he was tiring, but then again was still taking Frank down at will and doing his best to maneuver for a submission.

FWIW, I think Herb Dean made the only call he could. And it was the right call...


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

nhshmekel said:


> I'm neither a Gracie or Shamrock bandwagon rider...
> 
> The knees to Renzo's head landed by Frank looked downright nasty to me. I don't believe for a minute that Gracie quit like a coward. He was severely rocked, as anyone would have been (besides Mark Hunt or Cabbage?) after a couple of nasty heavy blows like that.
> 
> ...


renzo was doing nothing from the top, frank at least was landing shots and working. IMO frank would have somewhat gotten out of there and do something to renzo.


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## Ghizman (Oct 2, 2006)

***Re-Post from another thread***


Awesome card. the prelims online were good too. who the f*ck was that retard running around with the mic in the prelims? Krazy Horse came in an KO Noons with a huge right. Very impessive. Carrano kicked some ass. The Crow just looked like he's not in it anymore, it's really depressing as I was rooting for him. Props to "Smokin" Joe Villasenor, he dominated. My favorite fight was Bigfoot Silva VS Cabbage. WOW! 6'4" 298lbs throwing flying knees?! I was utterly amazed and in awe. Nobody has put Cabbage down like that, and that says A LOT. I know Cabbage is a giant punching bag but they guy is as tough as anyone and NEVER an I'll say it again NEVER gets KO'ed like that. 

Now Gracie vs Shamrock. Where do I start? Shamrock is a classlees pr*ck. He intentionally kneed a downed opponent in the head. Neck, back of the head, it wouldn't have mattered if he got caught flush in the jaw. Illegal move is an illegal move. Then he says that he was winning the fight and Gracie was 30 seconds from being KO'ed? (quoted from his post-fight video interview on sh*tdog.com) Come on now. Gracie was doing his thing and definitley winning the fight without a shadow of a doubt to any MMA fan. (BTW the stand-up in round 1 was bullsh*t, Gracie had his knee on Shamrock's belly either looking to mount or for an armbar) Shamrock knew he was losing I guarantee it. To say that Gracie took the easy way out is bullsh*t. His neck could be serously hurt. They put a neck brace on him for christ's sake! He took it off because of pride. At the end of the broadcast you can hear Gracie tell the EMT woman that he wouldn't get on the stretcher, no way. The man could have major neck problems. When Glazer was talking to Shamrock in the ring was I the only one that wanted someone to just kick what I think was Shamrock's wife in head? What a stupid b*tch. You can hear her call Gracie a "*****" in the background and that he "wussed out". I was just waiting for Cesar Gracie to cheap shot Frank and I woulda cheered him on. Shamrock is a classless pr*ck and nowhere near as good as he says he is and everyone now knows it.


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## producthead (Jan 9, 2007)

Renzo definitely did not quit.. You can see on the replay that Shamrock knew he hurt him. It seemed a bit 'dirty' to be kneeing to the back of the head from the bottom. Frank was getting dominated. The standup was even, and Renzo clearly won the first round. He was definitely up on points in the 2nd round as well. Renzo didn't look tired to me. He was clearly hurt from the illegal strike. If you can knee to the head of a downed opponent, all Renzo would have had to do was knee Frank's head to win. It seem odd that people say things like 'lay and gay'. Clearly you don't know very much about Jiu-Jitsu. It is a very methodical approach. My only issue with Renzo's performance was that it seemed that he easily could have mounted Frank multiple times, and didn't. He had knee on belly about 5 or 6 times, and Frank was flat on his back... Anti-Jiu-Jitsu...??? Right. More like.. getting your ass kicked by a Jiu Jitsu master.


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## ShockeyTime (Oct 11, 2006)

People sure put a LOT of empasis and stock n points on take downs, renzo got shamrock down But after thet, He just Laid on top of him like a Dead Fish, Doing NOTHING!!!!

If anything herb dean, who IMO is awful, let that crap of renzo laying there and doing Zippo go on to Loooong,This is a herb thing along with sometimes stopping fights to fast...

Again IMO, people put to much stock in take downs, they mean a Lot more when you do something with them, but taking someone down and then just laying there on top of your opponent and Doing Sh**, Squat, nada, IS'NT winning IMO, Hell shamrock did more with his knees to the sides and back, then renzo did all fight, If laying on your opponent and not doing anything and eating up time is the way to win, then renzo won big time.

I'm no fan of either but IMHO shamrock won and this fight to me at least, is the FIRST MMA fight that my eyebrows were raised with, IE it seems Smelly!!!

ST


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## Leviathan (Aug 21, 2006)

I watched this last night and you could see in Renzo eyes we was out of it after those knees to the back og the head. He could barely stand up without help. Shamrock was outclassed on the ground and those knees looked intentional.

Crazy Horse was a good fight the even mentioned rampage was there and supporting him. He sure is entertaining and loves to say the word shit.

Fight of the night was definately Carano/Kedzie at fight I was like female MMA, but damn those girls were better than the guys. Excellent fight


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Ghizman said:


> ***Re-Post from another thread***
> 
> 
> Awesome card. the prelims online were good too. who the f*ck was that retard running around with the mic in the prelims? Krazy Horse came in an KO Noons with a huge right. Very impessive. Carrano kicked some ass. The Crow just looked like he's not in it anymore, it's really depressing as I was rooting for him. Props to "Smokin" Joe Villasenor, he dominated. My favorite fight was Bigfoot Silva VS Cabbage. WOW! 6'4" 298lbs throwing flying knees?! I was utterly amazed and in awe. Nobody has put Cabbage down like that, and that says A LOT. I know Cabbage is a giant punching bag but they guy is as tough as anyone and NEVER an I'll say it again NEVER gets KO'ed like that.
> ...


Krazy Horse, Villasenor, & Silva impressed me a lot. Yea, Villasenor & Silva were taking on a gun shy Loiseau & current Cabbage, but they still looked awesome. Krazy Horse was fantastic in there. KO'ing Noons(Who smack talked big time pre-fight), and cutting an awesome post-fight promo. Krazy Horse is back, y'all. Hellz yea.

Frank and his wife were made for each other. No wonder Ken hasn't associated himself with Frank in almost a decade. 

I was hoping for some crazy Renzo, but no go. I wanted to see Renzo kick Frank in the face like he did to Marquardt. Sadly, that did not happen. Shamrock's wife, classless as ever, has the gall to say that Renzo "wussed out". Yea, you can keep that piece of filth, Frank.


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

I dunno, after watching the fight several times, I've gotta say the decision was going Renzo's way, but Shamrock was definitely causing more damage. I agree with the DQ decision - I hate that that's how it ended, but rules are rules and at any time if you break the rules, your opponent can DQ you. Honestly though, the way Shamrock was using his hands, a KO was a definite possibility. On the ground, Shamrock was causing more damage but Renzo was definitely controlling it, so yeah, I'd have given it to Gracie if the fight continued.

Ahh well, but what a way to break a no losses streak.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

people in mma put to much emphasis on getting takedowns. takedowns are only positive things if you do something once you take it to the ground. renzo didnt do much of anything on the ground. i wasn't impressed with the main event at all. it was a lay and pray clinic. the other fights on this card were pretty good actually. had it not been for the disappointing main event, elite xc would have scored a huge opening event.


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## thickma (Aug 27, 2006)

IMO, Renzo was winning the fight and the knees to the back of the head were definitely intentional. If you watch the slow-mo you can see Frank stretching Renzo's neck out to expose it, and moving his hand out of the way just as he was delivering the knee to the back of the neck. He sets it up and does it twice.


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## Wise (Oct 8, 2006)

More of Frank Shamrock being, well, Frank Shamrock...


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

long story short, i couldn't get on this site for a while... so i'm just gunna post my feelings on that horrendous show put on by Shamrock...

anyone who knows **** about MMA and it's history, knows that Renzo is one classy guy... also, after watching him get his arm broke and refuse to tap... still arguing that the fight was stopped, anyone who doubts his integrity is a total moron. I've lost all respect for frank Shamrock for acting like he did... also, he obviously knew about the rules... so all his bullshit about "i'm oldschool, i came to fight" was so freaking full of crap i almost kicked my TV... i just don't understand... it's a travesty, and nobody can say Renzo wasn't controlling that fight. Frank was just laying on the ground while Renzo was working. and by the way, that stupid stand-up rule is idiotic... how is a guy supposed to work the ground if he gets the fight stood up?

all in all, if it's going to be like that all the time... MMA doesn't need Showtime!


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

pt447 said:


> Frank was just laying on the ground while Renzo was working.


i think u got that one twisted around there. idk if we were watching the same fight because what i saw was frank working on the ground and renzo just laying there..


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## mma1357 (Sep 24, 2006)

TKOSPIKE said:


> i think u got that one twisted around there. idk if we were watching the same fight because what i saw was frank working on the ground and renzo just laying there..


I think it depends on how much you know about BJJ. The people who are experienced or at least train bjj don't seem to think he was just laying there. If you don't know much about bjj then I can understand why it looks like he isn't doing anything (btw - I am in no way trying to put you down. I dont mean anything personal by it).


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## SupremeTapout (Feb 1, 2007)

put it this way... phils gonna get his ass kicked for what happened last night.


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

SupremeTapout said:


> put it this way... phils gonna get his ass kicked for what happened last night.


If Frankie fights Phil Baroni like he did with Renzo last night, he is going to get his a$$ handed to him.


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

mma1357 said:


> I think it depends on how much you know about BJJ. The people who are experienced or at least train bjj don't seem to think he was just laying there. If you don't know much about bjj then I can understand why it looks like he isn't doing anything (btw - I am in no way trying to put you down. I dont mean anything personal by it).


its ok man i understand what u mean. nothing personal.


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

SupremeTapout said:


> put it this way... phils gonna get his ass kicked for what happened last night.


ya im pretty sure IMO that franks gonna be pissed off coming into that fight lol. which of course will make things more interesting.  lets just hope we doesnt get too carried away like how ken did with tito at ufc 61.


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## thickma (Aug 27, 2006)

I also think the fence aided Shamrock's ability to deliver a knee to the back of the head. He was able to create that angle and leverage with his hips because his right foot was positioned high on the fence. If it had been Pride rules in a ring (you're not allowed to use the ropes also), they would have been put in the middle of the ring, those knees would have been legal but only landed on the side of Renzo's head, not the back of the head. And Renzo could have retaliated in kind. 
I don't recall Frank going for one submission attempt while on the bottom. It looked like he was simply trying to neutralize Renzo. At the highest level it takes time to work a submission and Renzo was slowly isolating Frank's arm the first time they were stood up.
I really thought Frank Shamrock was a great fighter until he dropped out of the game when the competition started getting better. He's been out of the fight game for 7 years and claims to be undefeated in 10 years. How do you defend that? If SHAMrock does fight Phil Baroni, he will have his hands full.


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## JawShattera (Nov 1, 2006)

man frank woulda kncoked renzo out. at no time was he in trouble on the ground and renzo was getting hit allot on the feet, my opinion is that frank woulda kncoked renzo out.


frank looked real good with his strikes, really crisp


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## dutch sauce (Sep 24, 2006)

frank woulda and shoulda won.


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

TKOSPIKE said:


> i think u got that one twisted around there. idk if we were watching the same fight because what i saw was frank working on the ground and renzo just laying there..


honestly, if you couldn't see Renzo working for position, then i'm not sure you're too versed on BJJ. frank kept on tossing light knees into Renzo's side, but wasn't doing anything to escape Renzo's sidemount. also, Renzo was working for position, as well as keeping Frank on the ground--not like he needed to work hard at that though.


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

thickma said:


> I also think the fence aided Shamrock's ability to deliver a knee to the back of the head. He was able to create that angle and leverage with his hips because his right foot was positioned high on the fence. If it had been Pride rules in a ring (you're not allowed to use the ropes also), they would have been put in the middle of the ring, those knees would have been legal but only landed on the side of Renzo's head, not the back of the head. And Renzo could have retaliated in kind.
> I don't recall Frank going for one submission attempt while on the bottom. It looked like he was simply trying to neutralize Renzo. At the highest level it takes time to work a submission and Renzo was slowly isolating Frank's arm the first time they were stood up.
> I really thought Frank Shamrock was a great fighter until he dropped out of the game when the competition started getting better. *He's been out of the fight game for 7 years and claims to be undefeated in 10 years. * How do you defend that? If SHAMrock does fight Phil Baroni, he will have his hands full.


i caught that to. how are you truly undefeated in 10 years if you haven't fought once in 7? come on... anyone who isn't aware of the shamrock's just doesn't get it. listen to what Ken said to Tito after their last fight... he said; "you know we made a lot of money together". the shamrmocks, all of them, are about getting paid. they don't really care about their records, only getting in the spotlight and getting in the main events, which they always are! Frank is just a scumbag who cheapens the integrity of the sport!


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

pt447 said:


> i caught that to. how are you truly undefeated in 10 years if you haven't fought once in 7? come on... anyone who isn't aware of the shamrock's just doesn't get it. listen to what Ken said to Tito after their last fight... he said; "you know we made a lot of money together". the shamrmocks, all of them, are about getting paid. they don't really care about their records, only getting in the spotlight and getting in the main events, which they always are! Frank is just a scumbag who cheapens the integrity of the sport!


Amen to that! I can't believe some of the posters here are trashing Renzo saying he is some washed up hack. What the hell is Frank Shamrock? Renzo goes out thier and takes on men like Carlos Newton, Pat Militech, and BJ Penn? Frank Shamrock disappeared for seven years and comes back to face some nobody. He is def overrated!


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Let's look at Renzo & Frank's past opponents in the last 7 years.

Renzo: Tamura, Sakuraba, Henderson, Ohara, Oyama, Newton(Twice), Penn, Miletich, and Frankie.

Frank: Elvis Sinosic, Bryan Pardoe, Cesar Gracie, and Renzo.

Renzo may not have the best record around, but he fights quality opponents. 

Frank still touts himself as the greatest, and has only faced 2 quality opponents(Sinosic & Renzo) in the past 7 years.

I will say that Frank did look pretty good standing. Probably the best he has ever looked. Sadly, he couldn't defend a takedown to save his life, and let Renzo control him. That is not a good sign for someone who still thinks he's the greatest.


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

Damone said:


> Let's look at Renzo & Frank's past opponents in the last 7 years.
> 
> Renzo: Tamura, Sakuraba, Henderson, Ohara, Oyama, Newton(Twice), Penn, Miletich, and Frankie.
> 
> ...


100% correct!:thumbsup:


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

Bonnar426 said:


> Amen to that! I can't believe some of the posters here are trashing Renzo saying he is some washed up hack. What the hell is Frank Shamrock? Renzo goes out thier and takes on men like Carlos Newton, Pat Militech, and BJ Penn? Frank Shamrock disappeared for seven years and comes back to face some nobody. He is def overrated!


Renzo is far from washed up... and a sleak physique don't make Shamrock a good fighter. his strikes were solid, but he had no takedown defense, nothing to offer on the ground and blatantly threw knees into Renzo's kneck... anyone who defends Shamrock in this deal has no knowledge of MMA's history and of the people/familys involved!!!


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

^Agreed. Renzo's the little engine that could. He can still go, and isn't that washed up. Hell, I'd say Frank is more washed up than Renzo, because Renzo still goes in and proves his worth. 

Shamrock is a good fighter(Was once a great fighter), but he(And the people who still buy into his bullshit) thinks he's the god of MMA. Sorry, Frankie, you're not.


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

Damone said:


> Renzo's the little engine that could. He can still go, and isn't that washed up. Hell, I'd say Frank is more washed up than Renzo, because Renzo still goes in and proves his worth.
> 
> Shamrock is a good fighter(Was once a great fighter), but he(And the people who still buy into his bullshit) thinks he's the god of MMA. Sorry, Frankie, you're not.


he was never a god of MMA... he took advantage of the times, which back them, was barely what the sport is today... he was more a Pancrase fighter than he ever was an MMA guy... it's all the classic Shamrock overhype for compensation of lacking skill!

just another example of how much bigger the Shamrock family's mouths are than their talent!


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## dutch sauce (Sep 24, 2006)

^^ thats partially true but dont be talkin like shamrock is a total bum or anything


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

dutch sauce said:


> ^^ thats partially true but dont be talkin like shamrock is a total bum or anything


he had his moments in MMA, but he's very far from Legend status... besides... how can you take 7 years off, claim to be undefeated in that time off, and take credit for being a legend? the guy is a self proported legend, nobody who knows anytying about MMA would call him that. he's a staple figure in MMA's early and middle history, but legend? no, sorry...


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

pt447 said:


> he had his moments in MMA, but he's very far from Legend status... besides... how can you take 7 years off, claim to be undefeated in that time off, and take credit for being a legend? the guy is a self proported legend, nobody who knows anytying about MMA would call him that. he's a staple figure in MMA's early and middle history, but legend? no, sorry...


well he has had more and better accomplishments than ken and kens a hall of famer and legend. so IMO i think frank is a legend. after all he was the first complete mma fighter for all of the fighters of today.


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

TKOSPIKE said:


> well he has had more and better accomplishments than ken and kens a hall of famer and legend. so IMO i think frank is a legend. after all he was the first complete mma fighter for all of the fighters of today.


Ken is a "legend" because he was around from the start and is recongized for that... but he's in no way "one of the best fighters ever". legend is all well and good, but he'd never stand up to the cream of the crop comparitively! And what better accomplishments has Frank had over Ken? not being a ****, just can't compile a list...:dunno:


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

pt447 said:


> Ken is a "legend" because he was around from the start and is recongized for that... but he's in no way "one of the best fighters ever". legend is all well and good, but he'd never stand up to the cream of the crop comparitively! And what better accomplishments has Frank had over Ken? not being a ****, just can't compile a list...:dunno:


well he is a 5 time undefeated middleweight champion in the ufc. and undefeated in the ufc. defeated enson inoue,minoru suzuki, jeremy horn, tito ortiz, elvis sinosic. and he is an overall better fighter, and a complete fighter. but thats why i think he is a legend IMO.


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

TKOSPIKE said:


> well he is a 5 time undefeated middleweight champion in the ufc. and undefeated in the ufc. defeated enson inoue,minoru suzuki, jeremy horn, tito ortiz, elvis sinosic. and he is an overall better fighter, and a complete fighter. but thats why i think he is a legend IMO.


well, you provided what i asked for... ok then, he can be considered a legend, but that still doesn't mean he get's a free pass at acting like an ingrate! he might have proven his worth, but i have no respect for guys who act like he did. and no matter what, he erased all his accomplishments by throwing those blatant knees to Renzo's neck... i'm sorry, but you dont' see that horribly blatant disrespect in MMA, and he showed it there...

and you could hear his ***** wife after the fight; "he pussied out"... yeah *****, like you're an acredited crtic of what just happened...


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## Ghizman (Oct 2, 2006)

All in all Frank shamrock is a classes pr*ck!! Whether you were rooting for Shamrock or Gracie, whether you thought Frank or Renzo was winning, knees to the head of a downed opponent is illegal. Mauro Ranallo was confused on the rules. In the United States, knees or kicks to a downed opponents head are illegal. Whether on top or bottom, if one of your knees is even slightly touching the mat you can't be struck in the head by a knee or kick. Herb Dean made the absolute correct call. Anyone who has seen a grappling match or knows ANYTHING absolutely ANYTHING about BJJ knew Renzo was in control of the entire match.

I don't remember anyone saying Royce Gracie employed a "Lay 'n' Pray" in the early UFC's. In a 60 minute round he would lay upon other fighters or have them in his guard for 30 minutes at a time. But oh ya, he was a badass no "lay n pray" there. Where's the difference? Renzo can snap peoples arm and choke guys tice his size out if you give hi 60 minutes on the ground. It's sad that Royce was a badass for his BJJ and when people employ it as good or better than him they get zero respect becuse they don't stand and get beat up like Cabbage. Enough said.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Ken drew more money though. Also, when you say "Shamrock" to an MMA fan, they'll 99% of the time say Ken. Ken's even recognized by casual fans. Frank is not. Ken can say that the UFC might not have taken off the way it did if it weren't for him. UFC 40 was a huge event, and Shamrock(And Ortiz) were the reasons why.

Frank was the more naturally talented Shamrock, but Ken knew how business worked. When Ken cut a promo, it was to make money. When Frank cuts a promo, it's to stroke his own ego.

Also, I don't get the whole "Renzo did nothing on the ground". Like Ghizman & pt447 said, Renzo was looking for more dominant position's, and taking his time to make sure he'd get a submission. Renzo was in control, and there wasn't a damn thing Frank could do about it(Except throw illegal knee's). Hell, blame Frank for letting Renzo get those positions with ease.


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## TheJame (Sep 3, 2006)

Not only that, but he wasn't just holding him there, not trying to advance his positions. He was taking his time, and tried not to make mistakes. I think the quick stalling rule of the Elite XC really interfered with Renzo's gameplan, which was to work Shamrock on the ground, and beat him by outpositioning him. The times they were stood up, I really didn't understand why because Renzo was working to control him. I'd say Renzo was doing pretty well, up until the knees.


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## 2dmax (Dec 31, 2006)

Lloyd said:


> Yeah thats a good point he threw the knee from the bottom!
> The bottom line here is Renzo was exhausted and took the easy way out! The knee was unintentional. Its not like Frank knew where the knee would land, he was defending himself!


what do you mean he didnt know where the knees were landing...if you watched the fight shamrock had his hand right along side gracies head,,his knees were hitting right where his hand was...........he knew damn well where his hand was........i hope that loud mouth does fight baroni,,baroni will shut it once and for all......shamrock has no ****en class............


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## 2dmax (Dec 31, 2006)

mma1357 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I just watched the fight again and noticed something very important. Frank had his arm around Renzo's head and was pulling his head towards him, after he would pull Renzo's head he would then move his arm completely out of the way and then knee Renzo in the same spot his arm used to be. He did this twice. He would pull his head, move his arm and then knee Renzo. If Frank didn't know where his knees were landing and was just "fighting" then how did he know to move his arm away from Renzo's head right before his knee would hit Renzo?


you just hit the nail right on the head........frank dirty period,,they should ban his ass......he is a legend in his own mind..........he talks like he invented this shit,,wtf is up with that??? old man gracie was subin guys and frank s father wasnt even born yet for christ sakes......what a ****en tool.........


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## Ghizman (Oct 2, 2006)

2dmax said:


> what do you mean he didnt know where the knees were landing...if you watched the fight shamrock had his hand right along side gracies head,,his knees were hitting right where his hand was...........he knew damn well where his hand was........i hope that loud mouth does fight baroni,,baroni will shut it once and for all......shamrock has no ****en class............


BRAVO, BRAVO!!! Frank's arm was right where the knees landed. he pulled his arm away when he struck with the knees. Intentional knees to the head. i think Frank got caught in the moment and threw the illegal knees not thinking about the rules. he was out of his gameplan, renzo was doing his thing, not dominating but winning both rounds. I've been bashing Frank since the fight last nite really hard. Mainly because what he said afterwards, not the fight itself. He should've been a man about things and apologized for the illegal knees, then and only then should he have been hyping the re-match, after it all was said and done. but disrespecting the sport by unacknowledging the rules? come one frank....like someone said in this or an earlier thread we all now know why Ken and your adopted father (the one that saved him from a life of failure and ultimately maybe prison) has disassociated himself from you for ten years. Least Ken acknowledged to Tito after there third fight that they 'made alot of money together'. ddn't run his mouth like a punk b*tch. hope someones punches your wife in the ovaries frank


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

Ghizman said:


> BRAVO, BRAVO!!! Frank's arm was right where the knees landed. he pulled his arm away when he struck with the knees. Intentional knees to the head. i think Frank got caught in the moment and threw the illegal knees not thinking about the rules. he was out of his gameplan, renzo was doing his thing, not dominating but winning both rounds. I've been bashing Frank since the fight last nite really hard. Mainly because what he said afterwards, not the fight itself. He should've been a man about things and apologized for the illegal knees, then and only then should he have been hyping the re-match, after it all was said and done. but disrespecting the sport by unacknowledging the rules? come one frank....like someone said in this or an earlier thread we all now know why Ken and your adopted father (the one that saved him from a life of failure and ultimately maybe prison) has disassociated himself from you for ten years. Least Ken acknowledged to Tito after there third fight that they 'made alot of money together'. ddn't run his mouth like a punk b*tch. *hope someones punches your wife in the ovaries frank*


yeah, her comment right at the end really boiled my balls!!!


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

pt447 said:


> yeah, her comment right at the end really boiled my balls!!!


love him or hate him thats frank shamrock for ya. i can see why him and tito are really good friends. lol :laugh:


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

TKOSPIKE said:


> love him or hate him thats frank shamrock for ya. i can see why him and tito are really good friends. lol :laugh:


i just don't see how real fans of the sport, the ones who respect the fighters and the sport for it's artistry and respect, can think Frank is anything more than a loudmouth piece of trash! just because he's good doesn't mean he has free reign to act like a jackass and bring the sport to the level of boxing!


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## JawShattera (Nov 1, 2006)

pt comeon frank is ill as ****


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## Onganju (May 26, 2006)

Wow... This is an amusing thread. I watched the fight and here are my thoughts:

1) If you thought Renzo was doin' the Lay 'n' Pray, then you've never spent too much time on the gruond with anyone who knows what they're doing. It wasn't like Renzo took Frank down, sat in his full gaurd with his head buried in this chest hoping not to get hit. He took him down and would immediately transition to half-guard and then out to side mount. He was working. If you can't see that, get on the mat with someone who knows what they're doing, not your undersized cousins or siblings, and definitely not just your drunk buddies.

2) I don't know what to think about that warning timer. I was watching the fight, and Herb Dean stands them up while Renzo has moved to KoB. *The crowd didn't even start booing at that point*. Do you know how significant that is considering the nature of the Stateside audience? Hell, even the announcers were saying that Frank was just holding on (in their exact words "stalling) waiting for the warning to go off and get reset to their feet. I don't know on what side of the fence you are on as far as ground work goes, but they were definitely being stood up way too early.

3) When things were standing, Frank was scoring with strikes. But, this ain't boxing and the clinch (and following takedown) was par for the course. I was expecting a little more on Frank's end to keep it on his side of the game.

4) The knees were being thrown and hitting exactly where Frank wanted them to hit. He knew where Renzo's head was, and if you don't believe me get someone to pull side mount on you, close your eyes and tell me if you can't figure out their skull from their arsehole. The knees were fully intentional, and as the rules go they were foul shots.

5) Did it look to me like Renzo is hamming it up after Herb stops for the fouls? To be fair: Yes, completely. The knees, although fouls, were not that hard. He didn't have the room to fully extend his leg because of the fence, and Renzo's position didn't allow Frank to connect with his knee cap (more the top of his thigh). At that point, it has to be pointed out why Frank was DQ'd. Frank was DQ'd was because Renzo did not continue after given the time to recuperate after the foul. If he would have gotten back into the fight, then the fight would have went to a finish. BTW - If the fighter (or anyone) says to an EMT that their neck/head is hurting, that EMT will neckbrace them to fully protect them from further injury and to fully protect themselves from a lawsuit. 

All in all... That fight was definitely disappointing. Frank was confident on his feet and was scoring the significant shots, but Renzo was taking him down and controlling him at will. I was hoping that Frank would at least be able to pull gaurd, but he couldn't. I would have called it a draw up until the foul. After the foul, everything about this fight went down the toilet faster than last night's fried chicken and okra. No one was "clearly" winning in this fight, and we all got a finish that no one wanted.

But, please for the love of what you consider sacred, please don't give us a rematch. I'd sooner have bamboo shoved up under my finger nails than to have to witness something like this again. Shame on both Frank and Renzo for that.


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## daman5 (Oct 16, 2006)

there are 2 things very disapointing in this fight.

Herb gave notice to Frank after the 1st shot to the back of the neck that he shouldn't do that.. and then Frank did it again, so that deserves the DQ jsut for that!!

Second, Renzo said that he was willing to take this fight to a new level.. bla bla bla, this didn't look like a new level to me, it actually looked like a liar... he knows he was fine, and could have continued, but as the manager of Gracie said, "this is why we have rules, if we didn't have them we would have hair pulling and BITING!!!" thats what he said!!! WHAT?!?! 

So again, theres 2 sides to this coin, Frank disrepected the Refs warning, and did what he did almost right after he was warned, but Gracie LOOKED at the ref and put his had up ... like saying "common ref hes not allowed to do this".. and then put his hand back down and then a split second later he layed back not wanting to continue. So Frank came to fight, and Renzo came for the money.

And BOTH lost their pride of the families!! hahah


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## Kirkardo (Feb 7, 2007)

I really dislike herb dean. I never saw the fight but all you guys are telling that it was an accident. I agree with the person that said that Herb doesn't like the shamrocks becasue of this and tito vs ken herb stopped it after tito hit him with 3 elbows and ken got up and was like " What the HANK"


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

Kirkardo said:


> I really dislike herb dean. I never saw the fight but all you guys are telling that it was an accident. I agree with the person that said that Herb doesn't like the shamrocks becasue of this and tito vs ken herb stopped it after tito hit him with 3 elbows and ken got up and was like " What the HANK"


first off, "all us guys" aren't saying it was an accident. it clearly wasn't, not by a long shot. Plus, knowing Frank, you certainly know it wasn't. hell, it was probably his idea of a publicity stunt to make their next fight that much more hyped. thirdly, herb dean did a great job with the decision to disqualify Shamrock. he warned the jerk once about the exact same thing. and, if you haven't watched the fight, you have no right to comment on it because you don't know what happened. you're forming an opinion off of hearsay and other people's opinions. anyone who has watched MMA for more than a month knows what went down and nobody is really debating it. the only peole who are, have no idea what they're talking about!


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## JawShattera (Nov 1, 2006)

it was herbs fault for not interupting the fight after the first illegal knee




herb dean is a stinker


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

JawShattera said:


> it was herbs fault for not interupting the fight after the first illegal knee
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hear we go again with the Herb Dean bashing. If this was John McCarthy you people would be kissing his feet and praising what a wonderful job he did.

It's simple. Herb warned Frank about the knee's but Suck a$$ decided to ignore him. Just because Frank is an idiot doesn't mean Herb has to hold his hand all three rounds.


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

JawShattera said:


> it was herbs fault for not interupting the fight after the first illegal knee
> 
> 
> 
> ...


not at all... you don't just interrupt the fight at the first sing of something, because often, there are legitimate accidents and mistakes, and immidietly the fighter appologizes, and the fight goes on... but that wasn't the case here, Frank did it again and Herb couldn't give him the benefit of the doubt any longer. it was obvious what was going on.


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## mmaforum4life (Feb 5, 2007)

I think Herb is one of the best refs in the game. The guy is A+. Look at Sylvia vs Mir, everyone booed him and then they showed the replay and it turns out he was right. Shamrock/Ortiz 2, everyone booed him and then Shamrock/Ortiz 3 showed everyone he was right. 

Herb warned Frank and then Frank did it again and so Herb made the right decision.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

daman5 said:


> there are 2 things very disapointing in this fight.
> 
> Herb gave notice to Frank after the 1st shot to the back of the neck that he shouldn't do that.. and then Frank did it again, so that deserves the DQ jsut for that!!
> 
> ...


After Frank hits Renzo on the back of his head, you can hear Renzo say "F*ck, man?". Frank keeps on doing it. 

Renzo is a crazy dude, who happens to be nice as all hell. Renzo kicked Marquardt in the face after Marquardt hit Almeida. Then, Renzo goes over and is all nicey nice to Nate. Renzo rules.

YouTube - Renzo Gracie kicks Marquardt in the face


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

mmaforum4life said:


> I think Herb is one of the best refs in the game. The guy is A+. Look at Sylvia vs Mir, everyone booed him and then they showed the replay and it turns out he was right. Shamrock/Ortiz 2, everyone booed him and then Shamrock/Ortiz 3 showed everyone he was right.
> 
> Herb warned Frank and then Frank did it again and so Herb made the right decision.


yessir! people hate the guy, but he just happens to end up in the fights that have strange outcomes or odd happenstances. the guy wouldn't be the number 2 ref around and ref so many fights if he wasn't good. people just need to get their head's out of their poopshoots!


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## TKOSPIKE (Jul 7, 2006)

pt447 said:


> yessir! people hate the guy, but he just happens to end up in the fights that have strange outcomes or odd happenstances. the guy wouldn't be the number 2 ref around and ref so many fights if he wasn't good. people just need to get their head's out of their poopshoots!


lol i know this is gonna piss u off when i say this..but frank shamrock is still one of my favorite fighters. haha sorry man (please dont get on my case  )


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## Spartan42 (Sep 25, 2006)

the problem was not the the knee was from the bottom but that it was to the back of the head, this is potentially devastating and can cause permanent damage. This and the fact that frank was pushing his knees off of the fence.

I say this as objectively as I can because I train BJJ under one of Renzo's students.


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## Spartan42 (Sep 25, 2006)

not only were the knees off the back and to the back of the head, but my understanding is that frank also pushed them off of the fence which i guess is illegal as well. cannot stand frank shamrock and he got what he deserved in this fight.

I try to stay as objective as I can because I train under one of renzo's students


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

TKOSPIKE said:


> lol i know this is gonna piss u off when i say this..but frank shamrock is still one of my favorite fighters. haha sorry man (please dont get on my case  )


He's still my favorite fighter as well, but I can't defend Frank anymore.


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## B-Real (Oct 1, 2006)

Hmm.. I was a bit disappointed with the fight. How can people say Renzo wasn't doing anything and Frank was controlling the fight? Erh, what? Renzo is still the man!


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## light (Feb 13, 2007)

Hey I read some post on sherdog like

"knee wasn't hard"
"renzo was faking it"

Renzo was not faking. If you seen the second knee then Renzo got knocked out from the illegal knee and his head hit the mat. Frank loaded up the knee and it looked like a very powerful shot.

Renzo was controling the the fight. Renzo was impressive. Frank acted like most shamrocks with no class instead of apologizing.


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