# Top 10 Strikers in MMA



## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

I wanna see how well you know your MMA strikers, so instead of the usual top 5, let's see your top 10.

I'm judging based on variety, affectiveness, power and technique.


Anderson Silva
Mirko Crocop
Lyoto Machida
Melvin Manhoef
Mark Hunt
Chuck Liddell
Fedor Emelienenko
Takanori Gomi
Aleksander Emelienenko
Tim Sylvia

As you can see, I'm having some trouble with mine, so let's see yours.


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## Okami-Fan (Jun 7, 2007)

1.Yushin Okami
2.Yushin Okami
3.Yushin Okami
4.Yushin Okami
5.Yushin Okami
6.Yushin Okami
7.Yushin Okami
8.Yushin Okami
9.Yushin Okami
10. Anderson Silva


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

1. Anderson Silva.
2. Lyoto Machida.
3. Rogerio Nogueira.
4. Fedor..
5. Mirko Cro Cop.
6. Frank Shamrock.
7. Mark Hunt.
8. Bang Ludwig.
9. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira.
10. Chris Lytle.


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## enceledus (Jul 8, 2007)

Anderson Silva
Fedor
GSP
Cung Le
Crocop
Chuck Liddell 
Shogun


hmm.... I dunno. I'm having trouble after this.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

Damone said:


> 1. Anderson Silva.
> 2. Lyoto Machida.
> 3. Rogerio Nogueira.
> 4. Fedor..
> ...


Big nog has improved a lot, but top 10 striker? I don't see how. In the HW division alone, Tim Sylvia is above him.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira has really solid, crisp boxing. Not as good as his brother's, but still, I think he's top 10.


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## Okami-Fan (Jun 7, 2007)

ok heres my real list
1. Lyoto Machida
2. Anderson Silva
3. Mirko Cro Cop 
4. Melvin Manhoef
5. Rampage
6. Andrei Arlovski
7. Shogun
8. Mark Hunt
9. Forrest Griffen
10. Marcus Davis or Takanori Gomi

as you can tell this is also a rough draft iwill put more thought in it during the day


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## burton_o6 (Oct 30, 2007)

1. Anderson Silva
2. Mirko Crocop
3. Lyoto Machida
4. Cung Le
5. Andrei Arlovski
6. Chuck Liddell
7. Fedor Emelienenko
8. Takanori Gomi
9. Aleksander Emelienenko
10. Tim Sylvia


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Ew, Shogun?


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## badguy (Sep 5, 2007)

Okami-Fan said:


> ok heres my real list
> 1. Lyoto Machida
> 2. Anderson Silva
> 3. Mirko Cro Cop
> ...


I dig your list you hit most of them on the nose, I would replace Griffen with Jardine though, other then that its great.


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## Okami-Fan (Jun 7, 2007)

ick i can't see Jardine he's decent butn ot top 10 i was kinda iffy on putting Forest in but i thought to myself he could hang with any of the top ten strikers and maybe beat them
but remember thats a rough draft of my list
the real one will come soon


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## Okami-Fan (Jun 7, 2007)

i might put Griffen in 10th
Gomi and Davis are good it's hard to pick between them


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## badguy (Sep 5, 2007)

I thought since Jardine beat Forest that I would put Jardine above him in the list. I hope Cro Cop does good in dream cause he could only live off his past accomplishments for so long.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Davis' boxing and defense are way better than Gomi's. Gomi relies on his chin way too much, and often throws sloppily.


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## Okami-Fan (Jun 7, 2007)

yeah thats true never really thought of it that way
and i just thought and i forgot big Nog he's good 
i will have the final list tomorrow


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

Damone said:


> Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira has really solid, crisp boxing. Not as good as his brother's, but still, I think he's top 10.


yeah, it's good.
But it's not 10 in all of MMA. Tim Sylvia, Cro cop, etc. CC is in a slump but he's still miles ahead of him. Theres probably a good 5 or 6 in the HW who are ahead of him.


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## Okami-Fan (Jun 7, 2007)

GMW i disagree Nog has really good Boxing Sylvia isn't that grea of a striker he's kinda sloppy
yeah CC is but who else would you put ahead Nog?


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

GMW said:


> yeah, it's good.
> But it's not 10 in all of MMA. Tim Sylvia, Cro cop, etc. CC is in a slump but he's still miles ahead of him. Theres probably a good 5 or 6 in the HW who are ahead of him.


Um, I did put Cro Cop above Nogueira.

You may want to watch his fights with Sergei & Barnett (The second fight). Both fights showcase Nogueira's boxing skills. He has really nice head movement, nice fake-outs, crisp boxing, and he slips punches really well.


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

I too wanted to put the Nog's in, and I should have, but not so much in the top 5.

As for Griffin and Jardine, I don't think they're as good as someone like Pulver, Rampage, Lawler or hell, even Akiyama.


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

1.Anderson Silva
2.Lyoto Machida
3.Mirko CroCop
4.Mark Hunt
5.Chuck Lidell
6.Robbie Lawler
7.Tim Sylvia
8.Semmy Schilt
9.Alistair Overeem
10.Wanderlei Silva


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## Cartheron (Sep 5, 2007)

Anderson Silva
Fedor Emelianenko
Rogerio Nogueira
Lyoto Machida
Mark Hunt
Mirko Crocop
Tim Sylvia
Chuck Liddell
Wanderlei Silva
Alistair Overeem


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

Robb2140 said:


> 1.Anderson Silva
> 2.Lyoto Machida
> 3.Mirko CroCop
> 4.Mark Hunt
> ...


I like this list and I forgot about Schilt and Overeem.

I'm kinda edgey on some guys though, I'm confused on whether to really consider someone a good striker based on only punches, such as Lawler, he doesn't have much kicks. I mean Pete Spratt beat him solely with leg kicks.


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## bigdog89 (Oct 17, 2007)

plazzman said:


> I wanna see how well you know your MMA strikers, so instead of the usual top 5, let's see your top 10.
> 
> I'm judging based on variety, affectiveness, power and technique.
> 
> ...


Id Put arlovski before sylvia and aleks up a few notchesand put mahoef before machide i mean i give him credit as a striker its just manhoef is better.
Gomis a wild striker and bang should be in his spot .And I do think the nog brothers should be up there ill write up the order when i have a chance to think bout it in the morning


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Dammit, I knew I forgot some people. Usually when I compile a list on the spot, I forget a couple of people, and in this case, I forgot Alistair Overeem and Semmy Schilt.


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## Alex_DeLarge (Sep 5, 2006)

I don't know but you have to include Silva and Machida at the two top slots. The beauty is they are two completely different strikers that utilize the stand-up in completely different ways. I'd still go with Silva because he has more well rounded skills standing up and has excellent defense. Machida confuses the **** out of people and has excellent defense.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Not to beat a dead horse or anything but why is Machida the #2 striker in the world for people? He doesn't have any KO power at all and hasn't really fought anyone impressive. And we still aren't sure about his chin. There are many people I would rank above him, I'm not sure if I'd even put him on a top 10 list.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

Biowza said:


> Not to beat a dead horse or anything but why is Machida the #2 striker in the world for people? He doesn't have any KO power at all and hasn't really fought anyone impressive. And we still aren't sure about his chin. There are many people I would rank above him, I'm not sure if I'd even put him on a top 10 list.


Tell Rich Franklin that Lyoto can put anyone on the canvas. Striking isn't JUST power, and Lyoto has the skill locked down.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

kds13 said:


> Tell Rich Franklin that Lyoto can put anyone on the canvas. Striking isn't JUST power, and Lyoto has the skill locked down.


I realise it is not just power, but knockout power and chin has to play a role when you are ranking top 10 strikers. Not saying he has a bad chin, but we haven't really seen it tested. Along with this, he hasn't really fought any strikers worth mentioning and aside from his black belt in karate I don't think he has many notable titles under his belt.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

Biowza said:


> I realise it is not just power, but knockout power and chin has to play a role when you are ranking top 10 strikers. Not saying he has a bad chin, but we haven't really seen it tested. Along with this, he hasn't really fought any strikers worth mentioning and aside from his black belt in karate I don't think he has no major titles under his belt.


Yeah, but you can also argue that his chin won't get tested very often because of how good he is at countering and not getting hit. 

Also, what kind of title's can you really get as a striker? Like, I know you can be a K-1 kickboxer or compete in Muay Thai, but you can't really get a black belt in "striking". I think Lyoto's fights speak for themselves on how good he really is. :dunno:


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

kds13 said:


> Yeah, but you can also argue that his chin won't get tested very often because of how good he is at countering and not getting hit.
> 
> Also, what kind of title's can you really get as a striker? Like, I know you can be a K-1 kickboxer or compete in Muay Thai, but you can't really get a black belt in "striking". I think Lyoto's fights speak for themselves on how good he really is. :dunno:


There are a few titles you can get. There are Muay Thai championships, K-1 of course, as well as kickboxing competitions, and boxing titles. But its not neccessarily about that, even entering a kickboxing competition or K-1 or doing some Muay Thai would be good. I'm not dissing karate, but you've got to have more than that and Sumo Wrestling to be a top 10 striker in MMA. 

His fights speak for himself...wait, who has he "schooled"? David Heath? Sam Hoger? Vernon White? an obese BJ Penn? that sort of competition doesn't need any help looking stupid. Compare that to other guys on that list like Mark Hunt, Semmy Schilt, Mirko Crocop, Anderson Silva, and Fedor and you'll see that Machida doesn't belong in the top 10.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

Biowza said:


> There are a few titles you can get. There are Muay Thai championships, K-1 of course, as well as kickboxing competitions, and boxing titles. But its not neccessarily about that, even entering a kickboxing competition or K-1 or doing some Muay Thai would be good. I'm not dissing karate, but you've got to have more than that and Sumo Wrestling to be a top 10 striker in MMA.
> 
> His fights speak for himself...wait, who has he "schooled"? David Heath? Sam Hoger? Vernon White? an obese BJ Penn? that sort of competition doesn't need any help looking stupid.


He made Franklin, Nakamura and Sokky look awful standing.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Yep, and each of those guys have solid striking.


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## Alex_DeLarge (Sep 5, 2006)

He hasent had his chin tested because it's impossible to hit the guy, which is what makes his stand-up scary.

Much like Anderson Silva, only he's been caught a few times and it hasent phased him one bit.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

kds13 said:


> He made Franklin, Nakamura and Sokky look awful standing.


Those guys are hardly at the level that the other guys in the top 10 have fought.

Franklin has decent striking, but he's a middleweight (I realise that he fought at LHW before)

Nakamura is meh and hardly on the level of other guys

and Sokky is a judoka who has two flash knockouts.

I just don't see how you could possibly compare Lyoto's wins against the likes that other guys in the top 10 have beat

Mark Hunt- Wanderlei Silva, Mirko Crocop, Jerome LeBanner, Gary Goodridge (I realise the last two aren't MMA bouts, but we are talking about striking)

Semmy Schilt- Ray Sefo, Eresto Hoost, Peter Aerts, Guy Mezger, Jerome LeBanner

Mirko Crocop- Heath Herring, Igor Vovy, Aleks E, Josh Barnett, Randleman, Coleman, and Wanderlei

Anderson Silva- Rich Franklin (fighting at 185), Travis Lutter, Nate Marquardt, Jeremy Horn, Carlos Newton

And thats just going through a few names, my point is that you really can't compare the level of competition that Machida has fought to the level that has been fought with the other names in the top 10. All those other guys have much more impressive records and they all have KO power and a tested chin. Like I've said before, it doesn't take much to make the guys Machida has fought "look stupid" (no disrespect intended to Sokky and Nak).

Seriously, the Machida nuthugging is out of this freaking world. You've got him ranked as the #2 LHW in the world on a few poster's rankings and he ended up being ranked higher than Forrest Griffin in the LHW rankings after UFC 81. It's crazy.


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

I didn't see Kid on one list, I think he's top 10 easily.


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

Rogerio Nogueira needs to be on any top ten strikers list. period.

I just bother with my top 5

1. Andy
2. Rampage (He KO'd Cyrril Abbidi in K1 2 times, common guys!) 
3. Machida
4. Little Nog
5. Schilt


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Why do i not see Kongo on anyone's list prob one of the best HW strikers right now, he tooled cro cop in the stand up yet alot of people still have cro cop high on the list.

I am not saying cro cop isn't a good striker but he got beat in a striking match by kongo.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

Damone, I know you put CC in your top 10, it was more just me just thinking and writing as I go.

1. Anderson Silva
2. Lyoto Machida
3. cro cop
The rest aren't in a strict order
4. Mark hunt
5. Rogerio Nogeuira
6. Rampage
7. Tim sylvia
8. Aleksander Emelianenko
9. Fedor
10. Overeem


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## Uchaaa (Apr 22, 2007)

Why do you guys rank hunt not first?


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

anderson silva
cro-cop
chuck liddell
machida
wanderlei silva
andrei arlovski
gsp
Fedor
rampage
lil nog

these are in no order.


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## Okami-Fan (Jun 7, 2007)

omg i forgot kid
ok my final list will be down in 10-20min


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## 6sidedlie (Nov 19, 2006)

1. Anderson Silva
2. Lyoto Machida
3. Mirko Cro Cop
4. Chuck Liddell
5. Tim Sylvia
6. Fedor 
7. Mark Hunt
8. Semmy Schilt
9. Allastair Overeem
10. Jeff Joslin (my favourite striker to watch)


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## Okami-Fan (Jun 7, 2007)

ok here we god heres another try lol
1. Machida
2. A.Silva
3. Cro Cop
4. Melvin Manhoef 
5. Semmy Schilt
6. Mark Hunt
7. Alistair Overeem
8. Lil Nog
9. Rampage
10. Big Nog


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## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

1 A. Silva
2 L. Machida
3 R. Franklin
4 G. Pierre
5 F. Emelianenko

Going to think about it some more, be back later.


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## Shamrock-Ortiz (Sep 22, 2006)

yorT said:


> Why do i not see Kongo on anyone's list prob one of the best HW strikers right now, he tooled cro cop in the stand up yet alot of people still have cro cop high on the list.
> 
> I am not saying cro cop isn't a good striker but he got beat in a striking match by kongo.


The thing is though, when they are both at 100%, Cro Cop wins the striking battle, hence the first round of that fight which Cro Cop OBVIOUSLY won. Kongo won that fight for sure fair and square but he won the rounds in which Cro Cop had a broken rib and when his breathing problems started to come into affect. When both 100%, Mirko wins the striking battle, any ******* day.

You may say im making excuses, but who cares?? I am correct.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Shamrock-Ortiz said:


> The thing is though, when they are both at 100%, Cro Cop wins the striking battle, hence the first round of that fight which Cro Cop OBVIOUSLY won. Kongo won that fight for sure fair and square but he won the rounds in which Cro Cop had a broken rib and when his breathing problems started to come into affect. When both 100%, Mirko wins the striking battle, any ******* day.
> 
> You may say im making excuses, but who cares?? I am correct.


No, actually you are not correct. Kongo was the one to break his rib so it is a non issue. Thats like saying, "the only reason [fighter A] beat [fighter B] is because [fighter A] rocked [fighter B] with a massive overhard right at the start of the second" It doesn't make any sense at all. I would probably say that right now, Cheick Kongo has better striking. I can give Crocop the high kick advantage but thats pretty much it, in the muay thai department Kongo wins hands down. I think he has better body kicks, punches, knees and elbows.

Any why has no-one respoded to the fact that *Lyoto does not belong in the top 10*. He is being consistantly ranked #2 but why? He's beaten not even close to the level of strikers that the other guys have beaten, he's got no KO power, and his chin is untested. How that deserves a #2 spot is beyond me...


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Kongo was feeling cro cop out in the first round, sure cro cop won but when the second round started kongo took control of that fight. Kongo has better punches, elbows and knees but cro cop has the lhk, yet no one has ranked kongo on any list.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

Biowza said:


> No, actually you are not correct. Kongo was the one to break his rib so it is a non issue. Thats like saying, "the only reason [fighter A] beat [fighter B] is because [fighter A] rocked [fighter B] with a massive overhard right at the start of the second" It doesn't make any sense at all. I would probably say that right now, Cheick Kongo has better striking. I can give Crocop the high kick advantage but thats pretty much it, in the muay thai department Kongo wins hands down. I think he has better body kicks, punches, knees and elbows.
> 
> Any why has no-one respoded to the fact that *Lyoto does not belong in the top 10*. He is being consistantly ranked #2 but why? He's beaten not even close to the level of strikers that the other guys have beaten, he's got no KO power, and his chin is untested. How that deserves a #2 spot is beyond me...


I think you can use the rib break to argue who a better striker is, but not as a way to diminish the win itself.

As for Lyoto, he's completely outstruck Bonnar, Franklin and Sokky, and he did it to such an extent he deserves #2.


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

Biowza said:


> Any why has no-one respoded to the fact that *Lyoto does not belong in the top 10*. He is being consistantly ranked #2 but why? He's beaten not even close to the level of strikers that the other guys have beaten, he's got no KO power, and his chin is untested. How that deserves a #2 spot is beyond me...


Well, just about everybody here has Lyoto in their Top 3 and I would hardly consider us a bunch of n00bs. You seem to be the only person that disagrees with it. I'm not saying that your a n00b or anything but that is our oppinion, you feel he is not an elite striker thats your oppinion. I honestly can't fathom how you can't see that Lyoto is at least a top 5.

I guess Lyoto is going to have to run through the LHW division to earn your stamp of approval. I have a funny feeling that you will find a way to discredit his wins.

"Tito is washed up"

"Jardine was overrated"

"Chuck Lidell isn't the same fighter anymore"

"Rampage had the flu, I could tell he wasn't himself"

C'mon dude, Franklin is a huge MW, he is actually bigger than alot of the LHW's out there, Nakamura is a very solid fighter and a good win, He tooled Stephen Bonnar who is a solid fighter and Sokky KO'd two top 10 LHW's before getting absolutely destroyed by Machida.

All that aside, just watching Lyoto fight against other proffessional fighters his standup is clearly some of the best out there.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Robb2140 said:


> Well, just about everybody here has Lyoto in their Top 3 and I would hardly consider us a bunch of n00bs. You seem to be the only person that disagrees with it. I'm not saying that your a n00b or anything but that is our oppinion, you feel he is not an elite striker thats your oppinion. I honestly can't fathom how you can't see that Lyoto is at least a top 5.
> 
> I guess Lyoto is going to have to run through the LHW division to earn your stamp of approval. I have a funny feeling that you will find a way to discredit his wins.
> 
> ...


Yep, I seem to remember everyone talking up Sokky, but when Lyoto beat him, they went back to saying, "That guy who got beat by Glover? Him? So what that Lyoto beat him?!" It's sort of hilarious, actually. Good post, I agree

Lyoto has schooled his share of solid strikers, don't even pretend that he hasn't.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

Where's Jens Pulver and Hayato Sakurai on these lists?


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## ID06 (Dec 31, 2006)

1. Lyoto Machida
2. Anderson Silva
3. Tim Sylvia
4. Big Nog
5. Cro Cop
6. Robbie Lawler
7. Spencer Fisher
8. Jens Pulver
9. Alistair Overeem
10. Chris Lytle


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## Screwaside (Feb 11, 2008)

1. Anderson Silva
2. Chuck Lidell
3. Mirko
4. Robbie Lawler
5. Cung Le
6. GSP
7. Frank Shamrock
8. Fedor
9. Rampage
10. Kimbo Slice


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## ID06 (Dec 31, 2006)

Screwaside said:


> 1. Anderson Silva
> 2. Chuck Lidell
> 3. Mirko
> 4. Robbie Lawler
> ...


:confused03:


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

wukkadb said:


> Where's Jens Pulver and Hayato Sakurai on these lists?


Ah yes, I definitely consider Jens and Hayato seriously good strikers, in fact, I bet I can slip them in my list if I took out some dudes.


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## Alex_DeLarge (Sep 5, 2006)

I still wouldn't rank Lyoto #1 ahead of Anderson Silva like some people are doing, that's just ridiculous, but #2 definitely.


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

Another name that was left off everybody's list that should be on there is Sam Stout. The guy is definetly a top-10 pure striker in MMA.


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

Thats a good point Robb, Sam has crazy striking and a wicked chin.

Some other Honorable Mentions: Akihiro Gono, K-Taro Nakamura, Andre Dida

Shit how could I forget Dida?


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Damone said:


> Lyoto has schooled his share of solid strikers, don't even pretend that he hasn't.


I'm not saying that he hasn't beaten "solid" strikers, but compare that to the other people on the list for a second and try to tell me that those wins aren't as impressive as Lyoto's wins. I mean you HAVE to admit that guys like Mirko, Kongo, Hunt, Schilt, Silva, Liddell, and Sylvia have a much better list of wins than what Lyoto has. There really is no disputing that, imagine what guys like Hunt, or Kongo would do to a Stephan Bonnar or Rich Franklin equivalent in HW. There is a "solid" striker and there are amazing strikers like Jerome LeBanner and Ernesto Hoost (Who guys like Hunt and Schilt have beaten). Do you seriously think that Lyoto could hang in there with guys like Hoost, and LeBanner? I doubt it. Lyoto's highlight wins are against Bonnar, Franklin, Sokky, and Nakamura now this simply doesn't compare to the elite strikers that the other people in the top 10 have beaten. And that is a fact.

We are making a list of *elite strikers* and frankly, someone with *no KO power*, *an untested chin*, and an *unimpressive list of wins* simply doesn't cut it to hang in there on a list with guys like Schilt, Hunt, Anderson Silva, Mirko Crocop, Kongo, Liddell, Overeem, and the like. Any decent fighter could "school" guys like David Heath, Sam Hoger, and Vernon White, and an elite striker would demolish the guys that Lyoto has beat. So you can go on about how badly Lyoto "schooled" Rich Franklin and the likes, but look at those guys and then look at the level of strikers that people in the top 10 have beaten. You won't like the result, but I assure you its for the best.

Now onto the actual skills of Lyoto, it is quite evident that he has very minimal (if any) knockout power. He has pillows attached to his hands and feet and while I know knockouts aren't everything, if you are making a list of elite strikers in the world of MMA, you have to consider the factor of KO power. Over half of his wins a by decision, and while I realise that one can have a rather dominating decision, if we are talking about striking and where Lyoto stacks up, you have to see the fact that he couldn't finish a lot of people standing (guys like an obese BJ Penn, David Heath, and Sam Hoger) rather detrimental to his ranking. Once again, compare this to other people on that list who all have tried and tested KO power.

His chin is untested and while this might just be because he is so "elusive" you have to have a tried and tested chin to be ranked with the elite strikers in MMA. I'm not saying that all great strikers have granite chins (Arlovski comes to mind), but it certainly is something you have to consider when placing someone as the second best striker in the world. 

Oh, and could someone actually counter my points rather than just saying "its your opinion, but most of us 'pros' disagree"


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

Biowza said:


> I'm not saying that he hasn't beaten "solid" strikers, but compare that to the other people on the list for a second and try to tell me that those wins aren't as impressive as Lyoto's wins. I mean you HAVE to admit that guys like Mirko, Kongo, Hunt, Schilt, Silva, Liddell, and Sylvia have a much better list of wins than what Lyoto has. There really is no disputing that, imagine what guys like Hunt, or Kongo would do to a Stephan Bonnar or Rich Franklin equivalent in HW. There is a "solid" striker and there are amazing strikers like Jerome LeBanner and Ernesto Hoost (Who guys like Hunt and Schilt have beaten). Do you seriously think that Lyoto could hang in there with guys like Hoost, and LeBanner? I doubt it. Lyoto's highlight wins are against Bonnar, Franklin, Sokky, and Nakamura now this simply doesn't compare to the elite strikers that the other people in the top 10 have beaten. And that is a fact.
> 
> We are making a list of *elite strikers* and frankly, someone with *no KO power*, *an untested chin*, and an *unimpressive list of wins* simply doesn't cut it to hang in there on a list with guys like Schilt, Hunt, Anderson Silva, Mirko Crocop, Kongo, Liddell, Overeem, and the like. Any decent fighter could "school" guys like David Heath, Sam Hoger, and Vernon White, and an elite striker would demolish the guys that Lyoto has beat. So you can go on about how badly Lyoto "schooled" Rich Franklin and the likes, but look at those guys and then look at the level of strikers that people in the top 10 have beaten. You won't like the result, but I assure you its for the best.
> 
> ...


We have countered your points numerous times in many different threads, you seem to think that your oppinions are the only ones that hold any wieght. When 25 different people place Lyoto in thier top 5 and 1 person(you), says he's not it tells me one of two things, you either have a very biased hatred for Machida or you have no clue.

Lyoto took some heavy shots from Sokky in the 1st round and looked pretty unfazed, his chin looked good in that fight. He outstruck Sam Greco, who is a world class striker and beat Mike McDonald another world class striker.

Pillows in his hands?:confused03:

When you say stuff like that it makes it very hard to take your oppinion on him seriously. Granted he doesn't hit as hard as Lidell, but you make it seem like he's a total can. How many KO's does Kongo have over quality opponents? The answer is 0.

Also, since when is Kongo this great fighter? He beat an unmotivated CroCop, aside from that the level of competition he has faced has been pretty weak. 

Lyoto has faced much better competition than Kongo, Fact.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

Biowza said:


> I'm not saying that he hasn't beaten "solid" strikers, but compare that to the other people on the list for a second and try to tell me that those wins aren't as impressive as Lyoto's wins. I mean you HAVE to admit that guys like Mirko, Kongo, Hunt, Schilt, Silva, Liddell, and Sylvia have a much better list of wins than what Lyoto has. There really is no disputing that, imagine what guys like Hunt, or Kongo would do to a Stephan Bonnar or Rich Franklin equivalent in HW. There is a "solid" striker and there are amazing strikers like Jerome LeBanner and Ernesto Hoost (Who guys like Hunt and Schilt have beaten). Do you seriously think that Lyoto could hang in there with guys like Hoost, and LeBanner? I doubt it. Lyoto's highlight wins are against Bonnar, Franklin, Sokky, and Nakamura now this simply doesn't compare to the elite strikers that the other people in the top 10 have beaten. And that is a fact.


When we discuss something like this, to me, it's about skill and not as much pure accomplishments. Here's why imo, take Chuck liddell. He primarily counters takedowns and knocks out those with less striking then him. The top end strikers like Rampage and Overeem both beat him simply in the stand up. 



Biowza said:


> We are making a list of *elite strikers* and frankly, someone with *no KO power*, *an untested chin*, and an *unimpressive list of wins* simply doesn't cut it to hang in there on a list with guys like Schilt, Hunt, Anderson Silva, Mirko Crocop, Kongo, Liddell, Overeem, and the like. Any decent fighter could "school" guys like David Heath, Sam Hoger, and Vernon White, and an elite striker would demolish the guys that Lyoto has beat. So you can go on about how badly Lyoto "schooled" Rich Franklin and the likes, but look at those guys and then look at the level of strikers that people in the top 10 have beaten. You won't like the result, but I assure you its for the best.


So what, does rich franklin suck? I thought he was like the number 2 MW in the world. I don't get how Franklin, nakamura, and sokky mean so little. I think you are greatly reducing how good these fighters are too simply dislike Machida. 
Ok, maybe after he beat Heath he was overrated by some, but easily won fights later against top opponents, I don't see how. 



Biowza said:


> Now onto the actual skills of Lyoto, it is quite evident that he has very minimal (if any) knockout power. He has pillows attached to his hands and feet and while I know knockouts aren't everything, if you are making a list of elite strikers in the world of MMA, you have to consider the factor of KO power. Over half of his wins a by decision, and while I realise that one can have a rather dominating decision, if we are talking about striking and where Lyoto stacks up, you have to see the fact that he couldn't finish a lot of people standing (guys like an obese BJ Penn, David Heath, and Sam Hoger) rather detrimental to his ranking. Once again, compare this to other people on that list who all have tried and tested KO power.


I dont think power matters as much as you say. He dominates people standing, and makes them look amateur.His technique compensates for a lack of power, which isnt as extreme as you make it seem.That's all that matters.



Biowza said:


> His chin is untested and while this might just be because he is so "elusive" you have to have a tried and tested chin to be ranked with the elite strikers in MMA. I'm not saying that all great strikers have granite chins (Arlovski comes to mind), but it certainly is something you have to consider when placing someone as the second best striker in the world.


Let's look at the extreme end of the spectrum. He fights CC, Silva and Mark hunt. He beats them decisively and never gets hit once. Can we still not rank him simply because his chin is untested? Of course, against those three he would get hit most likely, but I think you see the point.
Btw, he was hit pretty solid by Sokky as I recall.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Robb2140 said:


> We have countered your points numerous times in many different threads, you seem to think that your oppinions are the only ones that hold any wieght. When 25 different people place Lyoto in thier top 5 and 1 person(you), says he's not it tells me one of two things, you either have a very biased hatred for Machida or you have no clue.
> 
> Lyoto took some heavy shots from Sokky in the 1st round and looked pretty unfazed, his chin looked good in that fight. He outstruck Sam Greco, who is a world class striker and beat Mike McDonald another world class striker.
> 
> ...


You're getting angry for no reason, I never said Lyoto is a can or even a bad striker. I'm just saying that he doesn't belong in a top 10 list for strikers, is that such a ridiculous statement to make? The Lyoto nuthuggery is out of control and I don't even hate Lyoto. I liked his fight with Nakamura and Sokky, and I think that if he wins his next fight, and if its against a good opponent (Tito would be fine, if they can make that match), he should certainly get a title shot. 

I sincerely doubt that you have countered my points numerous times in different threads since this is probably the only top 10 strikers thread I have posted in and I have been very careful to make my points only relevant to a thread about elite strikers. Once again, you're just saying "I have no clue" without actually countering my points. You think it was a suprise that Lyoto was voted as one of the most overrated fighters on this forum?

I just re-watched Sokky vs Machida and the only thing I could credit as being close to a clear shot was a plam-strike/punch that Sokky landed to Lyoto's cheek at 0:28 into the first round, apart from that the fight was kept on the ground. Regardless, it really doesn't constitute as evidence of Machida having a chin. I'm not saying that he has a glass chin and he very well could have a granite chin, but my point is that his chin is untested, and an untested chin isn't worthy of top 10 let alone a #2 spot in the world. Where exactly do you see a break in that logic?

So you're admitting that Machinda has no KO power? Or is this some sort of counter argument involving Kongo? Which as an aside I feel I have to remind you that you don't need to be a top fighter to have a great chin and Kongo has a kickboxing record (if his myspace is a combined record of MMA and kickboxing) of 25-0 with 23 wins by knockout. Sounds like some serious KO power to me. But thats not what we are talking about. You've offered to counter to suggest that Machida has KO power, and from his fights he hasn't shown any KO power so it seems reasonable to conclude that he infact does not have the KO power which makes an elite striker.

We're not talking about Kongo here, and your attempt to change the subject has failed.




GMW said:


> When we discuss something like this, to me, it's about skill and not as much pure accomplishments. Here's why imo, take Chuck liddell. He primarily counters takedowns and knocks out those with less striking then him. The top end strikers like Rampage and Overeem both beat him simply in the stand up.


It is about both, you take the skill and the record is a demonstration of the skill. You can call someone as skilled as you want but unless they have fought top competition, its pretty worthless. You have to prove yourself against excellent strikers and fighters to be ranked as an elite striker. That makes sense. Your argument doesn't make much sense since Chuck has proven himself against great strikers.



GMW said:


> So what, does rich franklin suck? I thought he was like the number 2 MW in the world. I don't get how Franklin, nakamura, and sokky mean so little. I think you are greatly reducing how good these fighters are too simply dislike Machida.
> Ok, maybe after he beat Heath he was overrated by some, but easily won fights later against top opponents, I don't see how.


Who said Rich Franklin sucks? I sure didn't. I'm just saying that we are ranking *striking* here and guys like Franklin, Sokky and Nakamura have no where near the striking ability that the other guys on the list have beat. I don't dislike Machida, I just get annoyed by blatant nuthuggery.



GMW said:


> I dont think power matters as much as you say. He dominates people standing, and makes them look amateur.His technique compensates for a lack of power, which isnt as extreme as you make it seem.That's all that matters.


I didn't say that it mattered a huge amount, but like it or not, KO power is a part of being a good striker and it doesn't make sense to rank Machida over guys like Hunt and CC when Machida doesn't have any KO power. And don't say for a second that KO power and technique are mutally exclusive, because there are lots of guys with both. 



GMW said:


> Let's look at the extreme end of the spectrum. He fights CC, Silva and Mark hunt. He beats them decisively and never gets hit once. Can we still not rank him simply because his chin is untested? Of course, against those three he would get hit most likely, but I think you see the point.
> Btw, he was hit pretty solid by Sokky as I recall.


Actually I don't see the point at all. You're saying this impossible hypothetical that doesn't really have much relevance at all.


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

Biowza said:


> You're getting angry for no reason, I never said Lyoto is a can or even a bad striker. I'm just saying that he doesn't belong in a top 10 list for strikers, is that such a ridiculous statement to make? The Lyoto nuthuggery is out of control and I don't even hate Lyoto. I liked his fight with Nakamura and Sokky, and I think that if he wins his next fight, and if its against a good opponent (Tito would be fine, if they can make that match), he should certainly get a title shot.
> 
> I sincerely doubt that you have countered my points numerous times in different threads since this is probably the only top 10 strikers thread I have posted in and I have been very careful to make my points only relevant to a thread about elite strikers. Once again, you're just saying "I have no clue" without actually countering my points. You think it was a suprise that Lyoto was voted as one of the most overrated fighters on this forum?
> 
> ...


you show up in every Machida thread and discredit the guy. Trust me your not making me mad, I don't take it personally If you don't like Machida, but you are the one desperetly trying to debate the issue, when we have debated it so many times. The problem is I can write a page of stuff explaining to you why Machida is a top striker and you will keep writing.

"Franklin is a MW"

"Bonnar's not that great"

"Sokky is untested"

"He doesn't finish enough"

These are all lame excuses that don't carry wieght, yet you think these are solid points.

You were the one who brought up Kongo, mentioning him in the same breath as Hunt, Machida and Lidell, which is very laughable. How is Kongo 25-0 combined Kickboxing/MMA when he has 3 MMA losses?:confused03:

Would you care to sig/avy or point bet on Machida vs Tito?

Put your money where your mouth is.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Robb2140 said:


> you show up in every Machida thread and discredit the guy. Trust me your not making me mad, I don't take it personally If you don't like Machida, but you are the one desperetly trying to debate the issue, when we have debated it so many times. The problem is I can write a page of stuff explaining to you why Machida is a top striker and you will keep writing.
> 
> "Franklin is a MW"
> 
> ...


You say that I have unfounded points, but you refuse to counter them. These points are very specific to this thread, we have talked before about him being a contender and him being ranked higher than Forrest but this is all about his striking. I don't know why you refuse to talk about this. I've said time and time again that I don't hate or dislike Machida, I really couldn't care less what happens to him. I've liked his past two fights and he does have serious striking skill, just not worthy of top 10.

Now with his kickboxing record, I went to his myspace page which mentions his MMA record as being 36-3 with 30 knockouts. Now we all know that his MMA record is 11-3 with 7 knockouts. So it is safe to assume that they included his kickboxing record with his MMA record to "beef it up" (which is what a lot of fighters do apparently). So I just subtracted his MMA record from the one on his site to get his kickboxing record...

36 wins on the site minus 11 wins for MMA = 25
3 losses on the site minus 3 losses in MMA = 0
30 KO's on the site minus 7 KO's in MMA = 23

Therefore I concluded that his kickboxing record is 25-0 with 23 knockouts. 

But feel free to find his real kickboxing record, because I'm certainly not 100% sure that this is it. 

So why don't you put your money where *your* mouth is and actually come up with an argument for once.


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## ID06 (Dec 31, 2006)

Robb2140 said:


> Another name that was left off everybody's list that should be on there is Sam Stout. The guy is definetly a top-10 pure striker in MMA.


I was thinking of ranking him, but, he pretty much got his ass beat in a straight striking battle with Fisher.


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## bigdog89 (Oct 17, 2007)

Biowza said:


> No, actually you are not correct. Kongo was the one to break his rib so it is a non issue. Thats like saying, "the only reason [fighter A] beat [fighter B] is because [fighter A] rocked [fighter B] with a massive overhard right at the start of the second" It doesn't make any sense at all. I would probably say that right now, Cheick Kongo has better striking. I can give Crocop the high kick advantage but thats pretty much it, in the muay thai department Kongo wins hands down. I think he has better body kicks, punches, knees and elbows.
> 
> Any why has no-one respoded to the fact that *Lyoto does not belong in the top 10*. He is being consistantly ranked #2 but why? He's beaten not even close to the level of strikers that the other guys have beaten, he's got no KO power, and his chin is untested. How that deserves a #2 spot is beyond me...



Franklin has only been beaten by two people..Machidas one of them and i actually think he might have knocked out franklin faster than silva did..Dont quote me on that cus i dont know the exact time...but it wasnt a long fight by any stretch


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## bigdog89 (Oct 17, 2007)

GMW said:


> When we discuss something like this, to me, it's about skill and not as much pure accomplishments. Here's why imo, take Chuck liddell. He primarily counters takedowns and knocks out those with less striking then him. The top end strikers like Rampage and Overeem both beat him simply in the stand up.
> 
> 
> So what, does rich franklin suck? I thought he was like the number 2 MW in the world. I don't get how Franklin, nakamura, and sokky mean so little. I think you are greatly reducing how good these fighters are too simply dislike Machida.
> ...


No offense but in mma schilts knockout list isnt that impressive...well neither is his win list overrall


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

Biowza said:


> You say that I have unfounded points, but you refuse to counter them. These points are very specific to this thread, we have talked before about him being a contender and him being ranked higher than Forrest but this is all about his striking. I don't know why you refuse to talk about this. I've said time and time again that I don't hate or dislike Machida, I really couldn't care less what happens to him. I've liked his past two fights and he does have serious striking skill, just not worthy of top 10.
> 
> Now with his kickboxing record, I went to his myspace page which mentions his MMA record as being 36-3 with 30 knockouts. Now we all know that his MMA record is 11-3 with 7 knockouts. So it is safe to assume that they included his kickboxing record with his MMA record to "beef it up" (which is what a lot of fighters do apparently). So I just subtracted his MMA record from the one on his site to get his kickboxing record...
> 
> ...


The only point that you make that actually carries wieght is that he hasn't KO'd alot of guys, only 3.

As far as the competition that he has faced, Lyoto has faced some very solid competition and has primarily used his striking to get the win.

*Rich Franklin* - Huge MW who is bigger than alot of LHW's, Franklin is a top 5 MW and would be very solid in the LHW division, possibly top 10. Also keep in mind Lyoto tooled him standing up in only his 3rd fight, it was Franklin's 14th. People rag on Franklin because the way he was dominated by Silva twice, but it's friggin Anderson Silva, aside from him and Machida nobody else has beaten the guy they both dominated him. Machida is the reason Rich fights at MW now.

*Stephen Bonnar* - Lyoto's second fight. I don't know if you have actually seen this fight but he completely tools Bonnar, who is a Chicago Golden Gloves Champ(that's not some BS title, Chicago is a major US city and to win the Golden Gloves there you have to have some good hands). Lyoto cuts Bonnar up, hitting him with shot after shot, Stephen has no answer because he cannot connect on anything. The look of frusteration on Bonnars face is very obvious. I'm not saying that Bonnar is Jerome LeBanner, but he is a good striker, If you watch his fight with Lyoto you would never know it.

*Sam Greco* - you should be familier with this guy and his striking bieng that he is your fellow countryman. He is a world class K-1 level striker. Lyoto beat him in the standup in that fight, it was close, but Lyoto showed that he can stand with a K-1 guy and not only avoid getting put to sleep, but get the win. Now don't get me wrong Lyoto did win this fight by taking Greco down, but he did enough in the standup to set up TD's and wasn't put to sleep by a K-1 striker.

*BJ Penn* - I won't use as an example, I never do. BJ is a LW no sense using this fight to argue my case.

*Sam Hoger* - Alot of people are quick to jump all over Hoger, labeling him a can. We all know he isn't that great, but he is not as bad as alot of people think. IMO Hoger was robbed in his decision with Rashad, so he showed he can hang with real fighters. Hoger's standup is actually pretty good, he has good kicks and punches but its nothing special. Lyoto made him look like he was a Karate Whitebelt, beat Hoger bad for 3 rounds. Maybe he shoulda KO'd him, but Sam isn't the easiest guy to do that to, he actually has a good chin, nobody else was able to KO him either.

*David Heath* - IMO, in the same boat as Hoger, Not a really good fighter, but not horrible. His standup is pretty solid and Lyoto schooled him. Before being thrown on his head by Boetsch, he had lost to Machida and Babalu, those are 2 really really tough fights, before that he was on a 7 fight win streak.

*Nakamura* - Has wins over Igor Vovy(if he was still active would def be on this list), Cyborg, Yuki Kondo, Randleman and Bustamante. He has lost to guys like Shogun, Wandy, Barnett, Nog and Henderson. No question Nak has been in there with some of the best and was able to beat some of them. Machida made Nak look like an amature fighter, complete domination and the fight was standing the whole time. The only guy to ever KO Nak was Wandy so that tells me Naks chin is pretty damn good.

*Sokky* - Sokky showed in his previous fights to have very heavy hands, KOing lil Nog was unheard of until Sokky came around. You can call him untested but I disagree, lil Nog and Arona are 2 huge tests and he aced both of them. Alot of people were saying that Sokky would be a force and with good reason. Lyoto took some heavy shots from Sokky but was also able to avoid the majority of them. He was not afraid to stand and trade with him and clearly won the standup battle. Remember Lyoto didn't take Sokky down, he swept him, In fact it was Sokky who was trying to take this fight to the ground. Machida was more than happy to trade with him because he was that much better.

*Now lets look at Machidas technique.....*

When you talk about good strikers technique is one of the most important aspects. Lidell has awesome KO power but he is far from a technical striker, Dan Henderson KO's people but his punching isn't exactly textbook. If you want to look primarily at KO power and Chins, then Dan Henderson should be on the list going by your logic, 45% of his wins are by KO and he has never been Ko'd. I don't think anybody is going to be arguing that Hendo is a Top 10 striker, because despite his KO power and granite chin, he is not a great striker.

Lyoto is so technical that it's scary, the only other guy that you can argue is more technical is A. Silva. Machida mixes up punches, kicks and knees, he throws leg kicks, body kicks and head kicks with pinpoint accuracy. His knees out of the clinch are pretty textbook as well. Every aspect of Lyoto's striking is just Textbook.

The thing about Lyoto is that he has such a wierd style of counterpunching and it has been mentioned by alot of anylists and fighters. he waits till his opponent is about to throw a strike and before they can actually throw something, he moves in and throws a combo almost always beating his opponent to the punch. To be able to do that consistently you have to have some pretty unnatural reflexes. This is part of the reason why he makes his opponents look so foolish. His unorthadox approach coupled with his textbook striking is downright scary.

*Defense......*

This is a big part of striking as well.

You say Lyoto's chin hasn't been tested. In twelve fights he has never been KO'd, he has also taken big shots from Sokky and didn't wilt. He has been hit plenty of times, the thing is he has a good chin. To win 12 pro MMA fights and not lose or get KO'd you have to have a good chin. Is it as good as Hunt's or Hendo's?,I'm not saying it is, but it's definetly solid. The fact that he has never been KO'd or even rocked leads me to believe that your theory that we don't know about his chin isn't very solid at all.

Lyoto's biggest defensive asset is that he is so damn elusive. The guy dodges punches and kicks better than anybody, he knows where he is at all times and is able to keep out of harms way consistently. He has great footwork and headmovement as well. Not only is he avoiding damage, but he is also frusterating his opponent and beating him psychologicly. Imagine fighting a guy who can hit you when he wants, but you can't hit him? This takes his opponents totally out of thier game and is the mark of a great striker.

The one knock on Lyoto is that he hasn't KO'd alot of guys. Does he have Lidell like power? No he doesn't, but he does have power, evident in his fight with Franklin. His lack of Ko's has alot to do with the type of competition he has faced and his style of fighting. He's not a KO artist, but he is a very technical striker that will probably make most other strikers look foolish. Machida isn't going to KO guys as frequently as Lidell, but I believe if they fought, Machida would outstrike him based on technique, now that is pure speculation, but I really do believe that. So that could be the only knock on him, but I think all those other things I mentioned greatly trump his lack of KO's.

So there you go Biowza, I gave you a breakdown of why I believe Machida is the #2 striker in MMA, I have answerd your rebuttles with valid points. I would say alot more thorough than any of yours. I have been very fair and anylitical in my assesments, not a bunch of nutthugger BS.

One thing that I have noticed, is that you are quick to come on here and bash our top-10 lists, yet you haven't posted one. I would love to see who the All Knowing Biowza "MMA Guru" thinks is the real top 10 strikers?

Now that I have done that, what would you say about a sig/point or avy bet?

Are you going to put your money where your mouth is?


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## bigdog89 (Oct 17, 2007)

Biowza said:


> You're getting angry for no reason, I never said Lyoto is a can or even a bad striker. I'm just saying that he doesn't belong in a top 10 list for strikers, is that such a ridiculous statement to make? The Lyoto nuthuggery is out of control and I don't even hate Lyoto. I liked his fight with Nakamura and Sokky, and I think that if he wins his next fight, and if its against a good opponent (Tito would be fine, if they can make that match), he should certainly get a title shot.
> 
> I sincerely doubt that you have countered my points numerous times in different threads since this is probably the only top 10 strikers thread I have posted in and I have been very careful to make my points only relevant to a thread about elite strikers. Once again, you're just saying "I have no clue" without actually countering my points. You think it was a suprise that Lyoto was voted as one of the most overrated fighters on this forum?
> 
> ...


Ok all im going to say about any of this is machida beat greco and macdonald on the mat


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

Biowza said:


> It is about both, you take the skill and the record is a demonstration of the skill. You can call someone as skilled as you want but unless they have fought top competition, its pretty worthless. You have to prove yourself against excellent strikers and fighters to be ranked as an elite striker. That makes sense. Your argument doesn't make much sense since Chuck has proven himself against great strikers


It is about demonstration, but I think Machida has demonstrated enough, I jsut mean it's not as strict as a top 10 weight class ranking where its like 90% accomplishment. 
Chuck has outstruck some good strikers but for the most part he's made his career on beating wrestlers. "For the most part". Unless you are going to use kick boxing matches, its hard to just look at w-l to determine the best striker. 



Biowza said:


> Who said Rich Franklin sucks? I sure didn't. I'm just saying that we are ranking *striking* here and guys like Franklin, Sokky and Nakamura have no where near the striking ability that the other guys on the list have beat. I don't dislike Machida, I just get annoyed by blatant nuthuggery.


It isn't blatant nuthuggery, and you didn't have to say they suck, it just gives off that impression. 
They aren't the top echelon of strikers, sure, but i think he beat them bad enough where we can say he is top 10. 



Biowza said:


> I didn't say that it mattered a huge amount, but like it or not, KO power is a part of being a good striker and it doesn't make sense to rank Machida over guys like Hunt and CC when Machida doesn't have any KO power. And don't say for a second that KO power and technique are mutally exclusive, because there are lots of guys with both.


Why would I say they are mutually exclusive?
All I'm saying, is his technique, makes up for a lack of power. If he had the power of liddell, he'd be #1 over Silva, but for the time being, his combined striking attributes are better then those with power.
I see your point here, and I agree we just weight these attributes differently.



Biowza said:


> Actually I don't see the point at all. You're saying this impossible hypothetical that doesn't really have much relevance at all.


Past few weeks my posts have been pretty bad for whatever reason, rushed or something idk. 

Anyways heres my point, He's fought some very good strikers and barely gotten hit, that shows his skill as a striker and his ability to not get hit. So, I was just saying, on the extreme end of things, if he fought three of the best ever and didn't get hit, could we still not rank him, simply because his chin is untested, despite it being untested because of his skills?



bigdog89 said:


> No offense but in mma schilts knockout list isnt that impressive...well neither is his win list overrall


i didn't mention him I thought.


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

bigdog89 said:


> Ok all im going to say about any of this is machida beat greco and macdonald on the mat


true, but he was able to hold his own in the standup. He subbed McDonald pretty quick, but went the distance with Greco.

It wasn't a pure striking match, but Machida had a good gameplan, If you were a good ground fighter and a good striker and were fighting a guy with no groundgame and great striking, what would you do?


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## Sterling (Dec 14, 2006)

My list...

1. Anderson Silva
2. Lyoto Machida
3. Mirko CroCop
4. Chuck Liddell
5. GSP
6. Robbie Lawler
7. Andre Arlovski
8. Semmy Schilt
9. Alistair Overeem
10. Wanderlei Silva


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## bigdog89 (Oct 17, 2007)

GMW said:


> It is about demonstration, but I think Machida has demonstrated enough, I jsut mean it's not as strict as a top 10 weight class ranking where its like 90% accomplishment.
> Chuck has outstruck some good strikers but for the most part he's made his career on beating wrestlers. "For the most part". Unless you are going to use kick boxing matches, its hard to just look at w-l to determine the best striker.
> 
> 
> ...


Not in this quote no.
In a diff on that i quoted it had said schilt talking bout their knockout list


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## bigdog89 (Oct 17, 2007)

1)Anderson Silva
2)Fedor
3)Andrei Arlovski
4)Cheick Kongo
5)Cro Cop
6)Aleksander Emelianenko
7)Sergei Kharitonov
8)Rogerio Nog
9)Igor Vovchanchyn
10Rodrigo Nog


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

Robb2140 said:


> *Sam Greco* - you should be familier with this guy and his striking bieng that he is your fellow countryman. He is a world class K-1 level striker. Lyoto beat him in the standup in that fight, it was close, but Lyoto showed that he can stand with a K-1 guy and not only avoid getting put to sleep, but get the win. Now don't get me wrong Lyoto did win this fight by taking Greco down, but he did enough in the standup to set up TD's and wasn't put to sleep by a K-1 striker.


As much as I love Lyoto I don't think he won it standing but only barely, he did really good though and was very close. But I would have to give the slight edge to Greco in the fight on the feet. But he was facing an amazing K-1 fighter who had probably around 50lbs on him and was obviously much stronger, not to mention this fight was over 4 years ago. Lyoto also pulled off some dope back kicks in this fight. In all though Lyoto had a solid decision on this, and did great on the ground, which Greco is no slouch in.


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## the ultimate (Mar 5, 2007)

1. Anderson Silva
2. Lyoto Machida
3. Fedor Emelianenko
4. Mirko Cro Cop
5. Chuck Liddell
6. Rampage Jackson
7. Andrei Arlovski
8. Aleksander Emelianenko
9. Wanderlei Silva
10. Robbie Lawler


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Robb2140 said:


> The only point that you make that actually carries wieght is that he hasn't KO'd alot of guys, only 3.
> 
> As far as the competition that he has faced, Lyoto has faced some very solid competition and has primarily used his striking to get the win.


Actually, those were TKO's caused by cuts and whatnot but whatever. I could go on and on about the competition that Lyoto have faced (I personally don't think its that impressive) but I would really just be beating a dead horse and we would get nowhere. Instead, I'd rather talk about what is relevant to the thread and that is striking, as well as the level of opponents with great striking. 



> *Rich Franklin* - Huge MW who is bigger than alot of LHW's, Franklin is a top 5 MW and would be very solid in the LHW division, possibly top 10. Also keep in mind Lyoto tooled him standing up in only his 3rd fight, it was Franklin's 14th. People rag on Franklin because the way he was dominated by Silva twice, but it's friggin Anderson Silva, aside from him and Machida nobody else has beaten the guy they both dominated him. Machida is the reason Rich fights at MW now.
> 
> *Stephen Bonnar* - Lyoto's second fight. I don't know if you have actually seen this fight but he completely tools Bonnar, who is a Chicago Golden Gloves Champ(that's not some BS title, Chicago is a major US city and to win the Golden Gloves there you have to have some good hands). Lyoto cuts Bonnar up, hitting him with shot after shot, Stephen has no answer because he cannot connect on anything. The look of frusteration on Bonnars face is very obvious. I'm not saying that Bonnar is Jerome LeBanner, but he is a good striker, If you watch his fight with Lyoto you would never know it.
> 
> ...


*Rich Franklin* - First off, I think that the majority of people here agree that Franklin looked terrible in that fight. Not to take away from Lyoto's win, but that was probably the worst Rich Franklin we have seen. Anyway, since we're talking about strikers I think its noteworthy to include that Franklin _doesn't have the level of striking as the opponents of other people in the top ten have._ <--Main point, since I'm not talking about whether Lyoto is a contender or not. Please note that to be a top 10 striker, you have to beat other top 10 strikers or at least, some of the best strikers in your division. I'm not trying to turn the UFC into K1 just for the purpose of ranking and of course great rounded fighters count as well but we need to look primarily at the *level* of strikers beaten.

*Stephan Bonnar* - I'm sure that the Golden Gloves award is a very presegious award, held by only the finest strikers in the world. Once again, my point is that Bonnar is simply not the level of striker that you beat in order to become the #2 ranked striker in the world of MMA. Don't try to turn this into the usual thing about the quality of opponents, because Bonnar is solid but his striking is not on the level you would expect to form a quality win for someone vying to be the #2 striker in the world.

*Sam Greco* - I went and watched that fight just then since I hadn't seen it and I have to say that Machida didn't win on the feet. He won on the ground. Although I will give Machida credit for beating him since Greco is a very decent kickboxer (I don't know about world class). However, although I see this as his most legitimate win when considering ranking strikers you have to consider that he did beat him on the ground primarily, Greco was 37 at the time and past his prime (and would go on the retire not long after), and it was only one win.

*Sam Hoger* and *David Heath* - I have no idea why you even bothered to bring these two up. You realise that we are talking about the great strikers that Lyoto has beaten right? These guys are total cans, Heath got schooled by a wrestler in the stand-up not long ago and Hoger's most notable win would probably be against Bobby Southworth. They are not even close to comparable to the guy's Hunt, Schilt, Crocop and the likes have beaten.

*Nakamura* - While he is a tough opponent, he wasn't even ranked in the top 10 LHW's when he fought Machida. Even less in the striking department, his style is judo and beating a judo fighter in the stand-up is really not that impressive (Do I need to remind you that we're ranking elite strikers?). Let alone by decision, when he was actually trying to finish him (I know Nak is hard to finish btw). But if Machida is such a great striker you would have expected him to finish him in the way that a technical striker like Anderson Silva would have.

*Sokoudjou* - Where to start with him. Now I know that this was a very big win for him, but let's not kid oursevles here. Sokky was beaten on the ground. He took Machida down, got sweeped and was kept down for the most part of round one, similar thing in round two and he ended up getting submitted. For the short time they were standing in round one it is hard to get a winner, however I will concede that Machida won the stand-up in round two. But once again, Sokky was largely untested (nearly everyone agreed on this before the UFC 79 fight, its only after that Lyoto fans say that Sokky was already tested) both in the stand-up and the ground game. Good win for Machida, however not really useful when ranking elite strikers.




> When you talk about good strikers technique is one of the most important aspects. Lidell has awesome KO power but he is far from a technical striker, Dan Henderson KO's people but his punching isn't exactly textbook. If you want to look primarily at KO power and Chins, then Dan Henderson should be on the list going by your logic, 45% of his wins are by KO and he has never been Ko'd. I don't think anybody is going to be arguing that Hendo is a Top 10 striker, because despite his KO power and granite chin, he is not a great striker.


I enjoy how you put words in my mouth as I made it crystal clear several times that I am not looking primarily at KO power and chins.

" I know knockouts aren't everything, if you are making a list of elite strikers in the world of MMA, you have to consider the factor of KO power." - Biowza

"I didn't say that it mattered a huge amount, but like it or not, KO power is a part of being a good striker" - Biowza

Like I've said, KO power and chin isn't what you should be ranking strikers primarily on. But it should at the very least be *a* factor when ranking fighters, surely a fighter with massive KO power should be ranked over a fighter with no KO power? Correct?



> Lyoto is so technical that it's scary, the only other guy that you can argue is more technical is A. Silva. Machida mixes up punches, kicks and knees, he throws leg kicks, body kicks and head kicks with pinpoint accuracy. His knees out of the clinch are pretty textbook as well. Every aspect of Lyoto's striking is just Textbook.


I realise that he is technical and this is probably his most "lethal" weapon. It would be crazy for me to say that Lyoto isn't technical, and I agree with you totally. However, you can't just rank fighters on one aspect of the stand-up, that is no different than you thinking I rank people just according to KO power and chin. You have to look at the whole picture, and when you look at the whole picture, Lyoto simply isn't in the top 10.



> The thing about Lyoto is that he has such a wierd style of counterpunching and it has been mentioned by alot of anylists and fighters. he waits till his opponent is about to throw a strike and before they can actually throw something, he moves in and throws a combo almost always beating his opponent to the punch. To be able to do that consistently you have to have some pretty unnatural reflexes. This is part of the reason why he makes his opponents look so foolish. His unorthadox approach coupled with his textbook striking is downright scary.


I wouldn't say "scary" due to his pillow hands, but yeah his reflexes and technical ability is impressive. I'm not doubting this at all, but being technical is just one part of the stand-up and like I've said you have to look at the whole picture. Also take into account who he is fighting, but I've already mentioned that.




> You say Lyoto's chin hasn't been tested. In twelve fights he has never been KO'd, he has also taken big shots from Sokky and didn't wilt. He has been hit plenty of times, the thing is he has a good chin. To win 12 pro MMA fights and not lose or get KO'd you have to have a good chin. Is it as good as Hunt's or Hendo's?,I'm not saying it is, but it's definetly solid. The fact that he has never been KO'd or even rocked leads me to believe that your theory that we don't know about his chin isn't very solid at all.
> 
> Lyoto's biggest defensive asset is that he is so damn elusive. The guy dodges punches and kicks better than anybody, he knows where he is at all times and is able to keep out of harms way consistently. He has great footwork and headmovement as well. Not only is he avoiding damage, but he is also frusterating his opponent and beating him psychologicly. Imagine fighting a guy who can hit you when he wants, but you can't hit him? This takes his opponents totally out of thier game and is the mark of a great striker.
> 
> The one knock on Lyoto is that he hasn't KO'd alot of guys. Does he have Lidell like power? No he doesn't, but he does have power, evident in his fight with Franklin. His lack of Ko's has alot to do with the type of competition he has faced and his style of fighting. He's not a KO artist, but he is a very technical striker that will probably make most other strikers look foolish. Machida isn't going to KO guys as frequently as Lidell, but I believe if they fought, Machida would outstrike him based on technique, now that is pure speculation, but I really do believe that. So that could be the only knock on him, but I think all those other things I mentioned greatly trump his lack of KO's.


Well, to be fair for the most part I have agreed with your other things that you think "trump" what you see as his only downfall being his lack of KO's (not to mention the level of strikers he has fought). But with the chin I have to disagree, once again this gets tied in with his competition. I'm not saying he has a bad chin, but it is untested. You seem to be going on the fact that he is 12-0 that he has a good chin. But I see this as flawed. Look at his fights; Obese BJ Penn, David Heath, Sam Hoger, etc these aren't the sort of fights that are going to test your chin. It's not even a bad thing that he hasn't had his chin tested, its actually a compliment to how he can avoid getting hit by that level of competition. (Let me just say as an aside once again that Machida was only really hit once by Sokky and that was a palm strike/punch to his cheek). 



> So there you go Biowza, I gave you a breakdown of why I believe Machida is the #2 striker in MMA, I have answerd your rebuttles with valid points. I would say alot more thorough than any of yours. I have been very fair and anylitical in my assesments, not a bunch of nutthugger BS.
> 
> One thing that I have noticed, is that you are quick to come on here and bash our top-10 lists, yet you haven't posted one. I would love to see who the All Knowing Biowza "MMA Guru" thinks is the real top 10 strikers?
> 
> ...


No need to patronise me, but yes I do feel I should post my own list of the top 10 strikers in MMA today.

1. Anderson Silva
2. Fedor
3. Mark Hunt
4. Semmy Schilt (although I'm not sure if he is still doing MMA)
5. Cheick Kongo
6. Mirko Filipovic
7. Robbie Lawler
8. Chuck Liddell
9. Tim Sylvia
10. Alastair Overeem

But its a pretty stacked list and I'm sure you could make a case for anyone. The people I think deserve to be there are Anderson Silva, Fedor, Hunt, Kongo, and CC, but I would have no objections to people moving around anyone else.

And since when did I think that Machida was a bad fighter, or even that he would lose to Ortiz? Where did this sig bet come from? I think that Ortiz is a bad matchup for him but I am not ready to actually do a sig bet on it, because I know that Machida is a very skilled fighter.


So let me just do a rundown once more on why I think that Machida shouldn't be in the top 10.
-Untested chin
-Little to no KO power
-Opponents beaten are not near the level of strikers that people in top 10 have beaten.


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

Your untested Chin theory has been blown out the water and you know it.

He has been hit before and has never been rocked or KO'd, that is a fact. i think you should rewatch the Sokky fight, because Sokky hit him more than once with some big shots and Machida didn't go down.

Bieng a great striker doesn't mean you have to beat great strikers, It's about ability and what has been demondtrated in fights. You can find a flaw for every Machida opponent, but the fact remains he has fought some tough guys.

I'll break down your list and explain my logic on why Machid deserves #2.

1. *Anderson Silva *- Agreed, he is my #1 also 

2. *Fedor* - Has some good hands but is not really a complete striker, he almost never uses kicks or knees. To be the #2 striker in MMA you really have to be well rounded in the striking department. Fedor throws heavy punches and has a good chin, but thats all.

3. *Mark Hunt* - He's high on my list too, Great Chin and very heavy hands, Hunt like Fedor is more of a puncher, he doesn't really utilize kick or knees.

4. *Semmy Schilt* - Like Hunt he's a great Kickboxer, unlike Hunt, Sem utilizes kicks as well as punches, The problem with Schilt is that he has never been able to carry over his dominance in K-1 and apply that to MMA. His list of fighters he has beaten is pretty soft as well. I put him on my list more for his K-1 credentials, I'm sure you did too, because let's face it, Sem's MMA record isn't too solid. 90% of his wins were against Japanese cans that had losing records.

5. *Cheick Kongo *- Kongo is a good striker who utilizes all aspects of standup. I know he has a good Kickboxing record but I don't know what type of competition he faced, that's irrelivent anyway because this is about MMA not Kickboxing. Kongo's only real opponents were CroCop and Assuerio. His win over CroCop was big, but everyone knows CroCop wasn't at the top of his game for that fight. He just barely beat Assuerio, who is not that great anymore and Kongo looked pretty bad in that fight despite getting the W. Machida has never been KO'd but Kongo has to Gilbert Yvel.

6. *Mirko Filipovic* - You can make a strong case for mirko>Lyoto, Crocop is very technicaly sound, he utilizes kicks, knees and punches effectively and accuretly. CroCop has had some stinkers though,(getting KO'd by Randleman and Gonzaga), thats why I rank Lyoto higher.

7. *Robbie Lawler* - Hits hard and has some fast hands, he's another guy who is more of a pure puncher rather than a complete striker. He's on my list as well, but definetly not higher up than Machida.

8. *Chuck Liddell* - Lidell has KO'd alot of guys on his feet, no question he belongs on the list, but he is mor of a KO artist than a technicly sound striker like Silva or Machida, he has been outstruck by Couture, Rampage and Jardine, 3 guys that aren'y on anybody's list. The only elite striker he has ever beaten is Wandy(remember this is a big criteria for you) Chuck made a career out of KOing grapplers. He deserves to be here but not ahead of Lyoto.

9. *Tim Sylvia* - Timmy has very good hands and can pull of a high kick and some knees on occasion, but he mainly utilizes his size, by jabbing away at opponents. Tims good and is deserving of bieng on the list but he is not ahead of Machida.

10. *Alastair Overeem* - Overeem is good and is on my list too, but he has been outstruck too many times to put him ahead of Lyoto. He has been Ko'd by Bobby Hoffman(lol), Chuck, Shogun, lil nog, Sergei. you wanna talk suspect chins, see Overeem.


*Lyoto* - He is a technicly sound striker who is well rounded in all aspects of striking, punches, kicks, knees, knees from the clinch. he is also extremely elusive, stays calm at all times, great footwork and head movement. He basicly dictates the tempo of the fight the whole time, he forces his opponent to play his game and he hasn't lost yet.


Your arguments are weak compared to mine, all you do is say that he has a suspect chin, which is totally unfounded and he hasn't beaten anyone, which just isn't true. By that Logic half the guys you listed shouldn't be on your list. Most of the guys you rate ahead of Lyoto are just punchers with good to average chins. 

I think part of the criteria to bieng a top 3 striker is to be a well rounded striker, Lyoto is as well rounded as they come.

Who has Schilt beaten thats so great?


BTW you have ignored my challenge, you care to bet on the Lyoto/Tito fight?

It seems like you are a little nervouse that Machida is going to win.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Robb2140 said:


> Your untested Chin theory has been blown out the water and you know it.


Well actually no, there is a difference between being hit and being hit hard. Kendall Grove has been hit, but he has a glass jaw, same with Arlovski. It seems the only fight you're bringing up is the Sokky fight, and I've watched that a few times and the only thing I would count as being nearly a direct hit is that plam/fist in the early stages of round 1. You're sort of tripping yourself over here, either Machida dodges everything and he has an untested chin, or he has a tested chin and gets hit a lot. Make up your mind.



> Being a great striker doesn't mean you have to beat great strikers, It's about ability and what has been demondtrated in fights. You can find a flaw for every Machida opponent, but the fact remains he has fought some tough guys.


Actually, yeah to be a great striker you have to beat great strikers. How else are your skills tested? Against guys like Sam Hoger and David Heath? It is just like to be a great MMA fighter you have to beat other great MMA fighters, its the same for a striking rank. I don't see why it would be any different. Imagine the destruction in the stand-up if Mirko, Hunt, Schilt, Kongo, Sylvia, and Liddell fought against guys like Heath, Franklin, Hoger, obese BJ Penn, old Sam Greco, Bonnar, and Nakamura. You can't just totally ignore the sort of fighters that Machida has been fighting. His list in terms of quality strikers is not really that impressive and you know it. There would be no point is ranking someone #1 HW fighter in the world if he has a record of 20-0 against total cans, so I don't see the point in ranking Machida #2 striker in the world when he hasn't faced near the level of competition that everyone else on that list has. 



> I'll break down your list and explain my logic on why Machid deserves #2.
> 
> 1. *Anderson Silva *- Agreed, he is my #1 also
> 
> ...


It's hard to disagree with that rundown and it is true what you say about the fighters such as Fedor, Hunt, and Lawler not really using kicks. But the point remains, and thats my main point, that *Lyoto hasn't beaten near the level of strikers that Anyone else on that list has.* Nor does he even have a K1 record, or similar striking equivalent. He also has no KO power (which is something everyone on that list possesses) and an untested chin.




> Your arguments are weak compared to mine, all you do is say that he has a suspect chin, which is totally unfounded and he hasn't beaten anyone, which just isn't true. By that Logic half the guys you listed shouldn't be on your list. Most of the guys you rate ahead of Lyoto are just punchers with good to average chins.
> 
> I think part of the criteria to bieng a top 3 striker is to be a well rounded striker, Lyoto is as well rounded as they come.


That's great debating, saying my arguments are weak compared to yours. Anyway, you seem to be missing the point totally. My main point is that *Machida hasn't beaten any great strikers in the stand-up, therefore he is unworthy of being ranked in a top 10. * I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here but compare the level of strikers that other people on that list have beat and them compare them to Machida. Just like being ranked in MMA, you have to have solid wins against great strikers and fighters to be ranked on a top 10 strikers list. I don't see how this isn't making sense to you. Just like Fedor being knocked off the #1 spot for heavyweights because he hasn't proven himself against top quality opponents, Lyoto shouldn't be ranked in a top 10 strikers list because he has never beaten any top quality strikers. Lyoto is well rounded, but who has he proven it against? Judo fighters? old kickboxers who he has taken down? Stephan Bonnar? David Heath? Now I'll just pick any name off my list, say Chuck Liddell. Look at who he has beaten, he has beaten Wanderlei Silva, Randy Couture, Babalu, Vitor Belfort, Guy Mezger etc. Not all of these guys are elite strikers but I'm guessing you get the point by now. _To be an elite striker you have to beat elite strikers._



> Who has Schilt beaten thats so great?


In MMA, not much. But he was an MMA fighter and an excellent MMA striker at that. But thats why I had my little aside note that he isn't really an MMA fighter at the moment and I was hesitant to put him up there. But in kickboxing it is hard to compete with his record.
-Ray Sefo x 2
-Ernesto Hoost x 2
-Jerome LeBanner x 2
-Peter Aerts x 2
-Mighty Mo



> BTW you have ignored my challenge, you care to bet on the Lyoto/Tito fight?
> 
> It seems like you are a little nervouse that Machida is going to win.


Maybe you should have read my post.


Biowza said:


> And since when did I think that Machida was a bad fighter, or even that he would lose to Ortiz? Where did this sig bet come from? I think that Ortiz is a bad matchup for him but *I am not ready to actually do a sig bet on it*, because I know that Machida is a very skilled fighter.


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

Biowza said:


> Well actually no, there is a difference between being hit and being hit hard. Kendall Grove has been hit, but he has a glass jaw, same with Arlovski. It seems the only fight you're bringing up is the Sokky fight, and I've watched that a few times and the only thing I would count as being nearly a direct hit is that plam/fist in the early stages of round 1. You're sort of tripping yourself over here, either Machida dodges everything and he has an untested chin, or he has a tested chin and gets hit a lot. Make up your mind..



I'm tripping over nothing, actually you are but I'll point that out later in this post.

First lets talk realisticly, nobody dodges everything, but Machida is the most elusive striker I have seen, His ability to avoid damage is very impressive and is part of bieng a great striker. While Machida is very elusive, he does get hit, and he has never been rocked or KO'd, fact. When that happens then you can use that as an argument.To say he has a suspect chin is pure speculation on your part, it is not fact.


Biowza said:


> Actually, yeah to be a great striker you have to beat great strikers. How else are your skills tested? Against guys like Sam Hoger and David Heath? It is just like to be a great MMA fighter you have to beat other great MMA fighters, its the same for a striking rank. I don't see why it would be any different. Imagine the destruction in the stand-up if Mirko, Hunt, Schilt, Kongo, Sylvia, and Liddell fought against guys like Heath, Franklin, Hoger, obese BJ Penn, old Sam Greco, Bonnar, and Nakamura. You can't just totally ignore the sort of fighters that Machida has been fighting. His list in terms of quality strikers is not really that impressive and you know it. There would be no point is ranking someone #1 HW fighter in the world if he has a record of 20-0 against total cans, so I don't see the point in ranking Machida #2 striker in the world when he hasn't faced near the level of competition that everyone else on that list has. .


So by your logic Randy Couture is an elite striker because he has beaten Tim Sylvia, Chuck Lidell, Vitor and Rizzo? All elite strikers who Randy holds wins over. Do you see the problem with your logic here? There are lots of instances where 2 great strikers fight and the fight turns into a grappling match or won by submission(Overeem vs Igor) is an example. Doesn't mean Overeem outstruck Igor, he caught him in a guillotine. So does that make Overeem a great striker because he beat another great striker by Guillotine. 


So let me get this straight, Nakamura, Franklin and Bonnar are all cans? If thats what you are saying you lose all credability in this debate because anybody who has been watching MMA for longer than 6 months knows that these guys are far from "cans" and are very solid fighters. Funny how you don't mention Sokky either, he certainly isn't a can.



Biowza said:


> It's hard to disagree with that rundown and it is true what you say about the fighters such as Fedor, Hunt, and Lawler not really using kicks. But the point remains, and thats my main point, that *Lyoto hasn't beaten near the level of strikers that Anyone else on that list has.* Nor does he even have a K1 record, or similar striking equivalent. He also has no KO power (which is something everyone on that list possesses) and an untested chin..


We are not talking about K-1, if you wanna talk best striker in the world anywhere its probably Buakaw Por Pramuk, but were not talking K-1, we are talking about MMA.

Your only argument is that Lyoto hasn't faced good competition, no he hasn't faced a who's who of strikers, but MMA is a pretty diverse sport with all different fighting styles, you face wrestlers, Judo guys, BJJ fighters, Freestyle fighters, submission wrestlers, muay thai guys, kickboxers. Remember this isn't K-1 it's MMA.

How many elite strikers has Lawler beaten or Schilt or Tim Sylvia, they have beaten some solid fighters, but nobody of K-1 caliber. 




Biowza said:


> That's great debating, saying my arguments are weak compared to yours. Anyway, you seem to be missing the point totally. My main point is that *Machida hasn't beaten any great strikers in the stand-up, therefore he is unworthy of being ranked in a top 10. * I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here but compare the level of strikers that other people on that list have beat and them compare them to Machida. Just like being ranked in MMA, you have to have solid wins against great strikers and fighters to be ranked on a top 10 strikers list. I don't see how this isn't making sense to you. Just like Fedor being knocked off the #1 spot for heavyweights because he hasn't proven himself against top quality opponents, Lyoto shouldn't be ranked in a top 10 strikers list because he has never beaten any top quality strikers. Lyoto is well rounded, but who has he proven it against? Judo fighters? old kickboxers who he has taken down? Stephan Bonnar? David Heath? Now I'll just pick any name off my list, say Chuck Liddell. Look at who he has beaten, he has beaten Wanderlei Silva, Randy Couture, Babalu, Vitor Belfort, Guy Mezger etc. Not all of these guys are elite strikers but I'm guessing you get the point by now. _To be an elite striker you have to beat elite strikers._.


This is the problem, you think your OPPINION is gold and you can't fathom that anybody would actually disagree with it. 

I am far from an idiot, I'm older, wiser and have been around the block a few times more than you have, trust me. I know what you are trying to say, the problem is that I don't agree and you won't convince me, because your argument is weak. So don't try to act like I don't get it, your the one who is like talking to a wall.

My criteria for best striker is obviously different than yours. Your criteria seems to be anything that would discredit Machida.

Your chin theory is nothing but speculation, you have nothing to substantiate that claim.

You also fail to realize that striking is more than punching, kicking and a solid chin. Bieng able to avoid bieng hit, footwork, head movement and awareness are all very important aspects.

I also don't agree that Bonnar, Nakamura, Franklin and Sokky are easy opponents and bad strikers. It's simply not true.

Post a poll on this forum or any forum stating, "Are Bonnar, Franklin and Nakamura cans", you will see how wrong you are.




Biowza said:


> In MMA, not much. But he was an MMA fighter and an excellent MMA striker at that. But thats why I had my little aside note that he isn't really an MMA fighter at the moment and I was hesitant to put him up there. But in kickboxing it is hard to compete with his record.
> -Ray Sefo x 2
> -Ernesto Hoost x 2
> -Jerome LeBanner x 2
> ...


See this is where you are tripping over yourself, because we are not talking about Kickboxing, we are talking MMA. You wanna talk kickboxing or K-1 Buakaw is #1.


Biowza said:


> Maybe you should have read my post.



OK so you won't put your money where your mouth is, I figured all your talk was empty. Anytime I see a post by you stating that Lyoto is going to lose I will issue this challenge to you.


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## 6sidedlie (Nov 19, 2006)

Zero love for Jeff 'The Inferno' Joslin?

Disappointed in my fellow posters this evening.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

WOW, you are very, very consistant in putting words in my mouth and ignoring parts of my post, I think I might actually keep a tally.



Robb2140 said:


> I'm tripping over nothing, actually you are but I'll point that out later in this post.
> 
> First lets talk realisticly, nobody dodges everything, but Machida is the most elusive striker I have seen, His ability to avoid damage is very impressive and is part of bieng a great striker. While Machida is very elusive, he does get hit, and he has never been rocked or KO'd, fact. When that happens then you can use that as an argument.To say he has a suspect chin is pure speculation on your part, it is not fact.


Do you know what untested chin means? It hasn't been proven that he has a good chin, or a bad chin, thats the whole meaning of "untested". I have never said that Machida has a bad chin at all, and I have made an special effort to say that it is very possible that he has a rock solid chin. So what, he has never been rocked or KO'd? Having a chin means getting rocked, and keeping at it, it means to get in a hairy situation like Nogueira and pressing forward. I've stressed this quite a bit, but getting hit and having a solid chin are different things. Kendell Grove gets hit, but he has a glass jaw. Knowing you'll just take twist my words, let me say for clarity that Lyoto could very well have an iron jaw, just as well as it could be glass, it is untested. 



> So by your logic Randy Couture is an elite striker because he has beaten Tim Sylvia, Chuck Lidell, Vitor and Rizzo? All elite strikers who Randy holds wins over. Do you see the problem with your logic here? There are lots of instances where 2 great strikers fight and the fight turns into a grappling match or won by submission(Overeem vs Igor) is an example. Doesn't mean Overeem outstruck Igor, he caught him in a guillotine. So does that make Overeem a great striker because he beat another great striker by Guillotine.


Words in mouth count = 1. I don't see any problem in my logic, you somehow think that beating fighters who don't have elite striking qualifies yourself to be ranked as an elite fighter. That doesn't make sense to me. You know very well what my logic is, by you're just trying to make me sound stupid by twisting my words. Answer me this: How is a top 10 strikers ranking any different from any other top 10 ranking? You seem to think so, because with every other ranking, people take into account who was beaten and how. But for a striking list you don't seem to think that is neccessary. Why?



> So let me get this straight, Nakamura, Franklin and Bonnar are all cans? If thats what you are saying you lose all credability in this debate because anybody who has been watching MMA for longer than 6 months knows that these guys are far from "cans" and are very solid fighters. Funny how you don't mention Sokky either, he certainly isn't a can.


Words in mouth count = 2. You know very well that I don't think that they are cans, and I've made it very clear several times (although I'm not sure if you read my posts seeing as I have had to point out things in my posts to you several times). Again, you are totally missing the point, *this is a list of elite strikers* and while beating solid fighters could be good for a top 10 LHW ranking, they are not good enough strikers to warrant a top 10 strikers place.



> We are not talking about K-1, if you wanna talk best striker in the world anywhere its probably Buakaw Por Pramuk, but were not talking K-1, we are talking about MMA.


Words in mouth count = 3. I never said we were talking about K-1. Where did you get this from? I said that it helps to have some K-1 credentials if you are going to be ranked as a top 10 striker in MMA. Just like if Ernesto Hoost joined the UFC he would probably be considered the best striker in the heavyweight division due to his kickboxing record. 



> Your only argument is that Lyoto hasn't faced good competition, no he hasn't faced a who's who of strikers, but MMA is a pretty diverse sport with all different fighting styles, you face wrestlers, Judo guys, BJJ fighters, Freestyle fighters, submission wrestlers, muay thai guys, kickboxers. Remember this isn't K-1 it's MMA.


Words in mouth count = 4. Once again, I never said this was K-1. Or that K-1 records should be the only criteria for ranking, I've said that it helps, and it should be looked at if you have a K-1 or muay thai, or professional boxing record.



> How many elite strikers has Lawler beaten or Schilt or Tim Sylvia, they have beaten some solid fighters, but nobody of K-1 caliber.


Well, in MMA like I have said, Semmy Schilt's record isn't that great and I've said several times that I would have no problem taking him off (don't know why you keep bringing him up). But his K-1 record is pretty damn impressive, and I've already talked about it. Sylvia and Lawler have Lyoto-style wins (that is, against average/good strikers) as well as wins that are much bigger and impressive than anyone that Lyoto has beat. They've also both fought good/great strikers and come out on top and both demonstrated great KO power and decent chins.



> This is the problem, you think your OPPINION is gold and you can't fathom that anybody would actually disagree with it.
> 
> I am far from an idiot, I'm older, wiser and have been around the block a few times more than you have, trust me. I know what you are trying to say, the problem is that I don't agree and you won't convince me, because your argument is weak. So don't try to act like I don't get it, your the one who is like talking to a wall.


I see you've given up coming up with points and have decided rather to try and patronise me and tell me how much smarter you are than me. You've run out of my words to twist and take out of context and have no more ideas of what words you want to put in my mouth. 



> My criteria for best striker is obviously different than yours. Your criteria seems to be anything that would discredit Machida.


I stand corrected, words put in mouth count = 5. I'm not sure if you are blind or just refuse to read my posts but I have said about five times now that I have no problem with Machida and I think he is a good fighter. 



> Your chin theory is nothing but speculation, you have nothing to substantiate that claim.


Of course I don't, thats the whole point of having an "untested" chin. I never said he had a bad chin. 



> You also fail to realize that striking is more than punching, kicking and a solid chin. Bieng able to avoid bieng hit, footwork, head movement and awareness are all very important aspects.


Wow, you must be going for a record here, words in mouth count = 6. When did I say that striking was just punches, kicks and chin? Have I ever said that defense, footwork, and headmovement isn't a part of stand up? Have I said that Machida's technical ability isn't impressive? No. Everyone else has those abilities in the top 10 list of elite strikers. Machida isn't the only one.



> I also don't agree that Bonnar, Nakamura, Franklin and Sokky are easy opponents and bad strikers. It's simply not true.


Words in mouth count = 7. When did I say they were easy opponents and bad strikers? Please present a quote of mine to justify this.



> Post a poll on this forum or any forum stating, "Are Bonnar, Franklin and Nakamura cans", you will see how wrong you are.


Words in mouth count = 8. I never said any of them were cans.



> See this is where you are tripping over yourself, because we are not talking about Kickboxing, we are talking MMA. You wanna talk kickboxing or K-1 Buakaw is #1.


Who said I was talking K-1? I admitted at the very start that Semmy Schilt might not deserve to be on a top 10 MMA strikers list. And I've got no problem with taking him off. I said this from the very second I put him there. 



Biowza said:


> The people I think deserve to be there are Anderson Silva, Fedor, Hunt, Kongo, and CC, but *I would have no objections to people moving around anyone else*.





> OK so you won't put your money where your mouth is, I figured all your talk was empty. Anytime I see a post by you stating that Lyoto is going to lose I will issue this challenge to you.


What talk? I haven't even mentioned Ortiz vs Machida until you started to challenge me to a sig bet. I've said in this thread that I think Ortiz is a bad match-up for Machida, and that I wasn't comfortable betting on it because Machida is a very skilled fighter. How is this trash talk? You just came up with a sig bet for something that I didn't even say and when I said I wasn't comfortable betting on it you say that "my talk was empty". Seriously, you are being aggressive for no reason, I've got no problem with Machida.


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## Okami-Fan (Jun 7, 2007)

Robb2140 said:


> Your untested Chin theory has been blown out the water and you know it.
> 
> He has been hit before and has never been rocked or KO'd, that is a fact. i think you should rewatch the Sokky fight, because Sokky hit him more than once with some big shots and Machida didn't go down.
> 
> ...


i put Rampage on my list...and i think he's a better striker than Liddell and Wandy


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

your the one who keeps mentioning K-1, and although you might have not said those things outright you have implied them.

Did you not list Schilts K-1 record?



So basicly the only thing you have is that Machida's chin is untested and that he has not beaten elite strikers?

I love how I am putting all your arguments to bed one by one

A top ten best MMA fighters or a P4P list, IMO is different than say a best wrestler, striker or sub artist list. Because this is specific to an ability. When you talk about a p4p fighter, who he has fought and how he won are important factors, when talking about striking that could factor in a little bit, but IMO it really comes down to a demondtration of outstanding striking skills.

When you say "elite strikers", there really are only a handful of guys in MMA that would be considered elite.

I'll give you an example of how your argument is flawed....


Antoni Hardonk is an acccomplished kickboxer and a very good striker, no question about that. If he fights Brandon Vera and Vera takes him down controls the fight on the mat and subs him, does that make Vera an elite striker, since he has beaten an accomplished kickboxer in Hardonk?

No it doesn't

There are so many variables in MMA, If you go by that logic than Lyoto has beaten an elite striker in Sam Greco. Sokky's 2 KO's over Arona and lil Nog, would qualify him as a very dangerous striker as well.

untested chin?:confused05:

Are you kidding me? So a guy doesn't make the list because you have never seen him get hit because he is so elusive and is able to avoid damage? What do you expect Lyoto to do, sit there and take shots square on the chin, when the guy has the ability to avoid them.

Have you seen all 12 of Lyoto's fights?

If not, then you are not qualified to say that

I think you realize that you make no sense. Half the guys you listed have not beaten numerouse elite strikers, yet you feel they should be there over Lyoto. 

Like i said Biowza, you will not change my mind, certainly not with this logic. You are trying hard though, but reaching a little to far to prove your point when you have already failed.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Robb2140 said:


> your the one who keeps mentioning K-1, and although you might have not said those things outright you have implied them.
> 
> Did you not list Schilts K-1 record?


Yeah....I listed Schilt's K-1 record...so? I've said about four times now that I don't mind taking him off the list, since he doesn't really do MMA right now, whats the problem? I put his K-1 record so you could get a sense of what sort of competition he has beaten standing. It was meant to show how good of a striker he is, and what sort of strikers he has beaten. I'm really not sure how I can be more clear.



> So basicly the only thing you have is that Machida's chin is untested and that he has not beaten elite strikers?


Well, that and his lack of KO power. All those factors combined makes him not top 10 material.



> I love how I am putting all your arguments to bed one by one


Great debating, for someone "older and wiser" than me you sure are immature.



> A top ten best MMA fighters or a P4P list, IMO is different than say a best wrestler, striker or sub artist list. Because this is specific to an ability. When you talk about a p4p fighter, who he has fought and how he won are important factors, when talking about striking that could factor in a little bit, but IMO it really comes down to a demondtration of outstanding striking skills.


Yeah, it does. But to demonstrate striking skills against good striking opponents is very important. Lyoto hasn't been in any stand-up wars with anyone who possesses great stand-up. That is why its important, to consider who was beaten, because anyone can dominate Sam Hoger standing, but if Lyoto were to pick apart Liddell, or Wandy then that would weigh much more towards him being in the top 10.



> When you say "elite strikers", there really are only a handful of guys in MMA that would be considered elite.


Oh I'm sorry, wrong word. Is this meant to be an arguement?



> I'll give you an example of how your argument is flawed....
> 
> Antoni Hardonk is an acccomplished kickboxer and a very good striker, no question about that. If he fights Brandon Vera and Vera takes him down controls the fight on the mat and subs him, does that make Vera an elite striker, since he has beaten an accomplished kickboxer in Hardonk?
> 
> No it doesn't


No, of course it doesn't. That is why sometimes you have to consider things outside of MMA when deciding a top 10. Such as Hunt's kickboxing record, or Mirko's record, or Semmy Schilt's. As well as MMA bouts that the person has had where the majority of the fight was standing up against a great striker.



> There are so many variables in MMA, If you go by that logic than Lyoto has beaten an elite striker in Sam Greco. Sokky's 2 KO's over Arona and lil Nog, would qualify him as a very dangerous striker as well.


You seem to completely miss my point, but thanks for admitting that Lyoto's wins against Greco and Sokky do not qualify as beating great strikers. 



> untested chin?:confused05:
> 
> Are you kidding me? So a guy doesn't make the list because you have never seen him get hit because he is so elusive and is able to avoid damage? What do you expect Lyoto to do, sit there and take shots square on the chin, when the guy has the ability to avoid them.


No-one said that he should just sit there and take punches, infact its probably a good thing that he has an untested chin because it means that he barely gets hit at all. And no, he doesn't not make the list just because of his untested chin, its a factor that is considered along with his record (or lack thereof) against great strikers and his demonstrated lack of knockout power.



> I think you realize that you make no sense. Half the guys you listed have not beaten numerouse elite strikers, yet you feel they should be there over Lyoto.


Why would I realise that I make no sense? Anyway regardless of how many people have been beaten, everyone on my list is a tried and tested good striker. All of their striking has been demonstrated against top opponents and great strikers. That's not to say that I am iron clad on my list, if you could find a good argument why someone shouldn't be there I would be happy to move them off. But I do know that my list won't have Machida on it. At least not yet.



> Like i said Biowza, you will not change my mind, certainly not with this logic. You are trying hard though, but reaching a little to far to prove your point when you have already failed.


Nice petty insults, and immaturity shown from a moderator.


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

Biowza said:


> Yeah....I listed Schilt's K-1 record...so? I've said about four times now that I don't mind taking him off the list, since he doesn't really do MMA right now, whats the problem? I put his K-1 record so you could get a sense of what sort of competition he has beaten standing. It was meant to show how good of a striker he is, and what sort of strikers he has beaten. I'm really not sure how I can be more clear.
> 
> 
> Well, that and his lack of KO power. All those factors combined makes him not top 10 material.
> ...



First of all Biowza, I have not insulted you, more or less have used sarcasm, because you seem to think your oppinion is the only one that matters.

I got news for you, 20+ people on this thread who are all knowledgable MMA fans have placed Machida on their list, 2 or 3 haven't, you and a guy who also has Kimbo on his list, so what does that tell you? You are entitled to believe whatever you like, but so is everyone else.

look at the members in this thread that disagree with you....

Plazzman
Damone
Okami-Fan
Myself
kds13
Alex_Delarge
Cartheron
GMW
6sidedlie
ebc_kyle
Iron Daisy

It's safe to say that we know what we are talking about and don't need to justify our lists to you. Who are you Dana White? what makes your oppinion so special, that we are all supposed to agree with you.

I have said it 10 times and I will say it one last time, you have convinced me of nothing, your argument does not make sense to me because it is primarily based on your oppinion and speculation.

Earlier in this thread I tried to avoid all of this because I know you can't debate without resorting to attacks. You get frusterated and lash out, you do it constantly.



Biowza said:


> Great debating, for someone "older and wiser" than me you sure are immature.
> 
> Nice petty insults, and immaturity shown from a moderator.


Now this here is uncalled for, you are the one who is being immature. Because I am a mod I am not allowed to debate with members, because I am a mod I am supposed to let somebody get nasty with me and not respond? I made those "older and wiser" comments in response to you saying that "I don't get it", Trust me I get your argument and I am insulted that you would suggest that I cannot comprehend what you are saying, I just don't agree with it. If you can't respect other peoples oppinions then I suggest you find a new MMA site to post on, because you won't last around here with that attitude. This started out as a perfectly innocent thread where people were listing there top-10 strikers and along you come and hijack it. Remember it was you that desperetly wanted to debate the issue and when someone fails to see things your way this is how you react.



Biowza said:


> Oh, and could someone actually counter my points rather than just saying "its your opinion, but most of us 'pros' disagree".





Biowza said:


> Any why has no-one respoded to the fact that Lyoto does not belong in the top 10. He is being consistantly ranked #2 but why?





Biowza said:


> So why don't you put your money where your mouth is and actually come up with an argument for once.



You were the one, calling everybody out and getting nasty, just because everybody else disagreed with you.

You need to grow up Biowza:confused03:


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## bigdog89 (Oct 17, 2007)

Robb2140 said:


> First of all Biowza, I have not insulted you, more or less have used sarcasm, because you seem to think your oppinion is the only one that matters.
> 
> I got news for you, 20+ people on this thread who are all knowledgable MMA fans have placed Machida on their list, 2 or 3 haven't, you and a guy who also has Kimbo on his list, so what does that tell you? You are entitled to believe whatever you like, but so is everyone else.
> 
> ...


Can i just ask one question in reality who has Machida beaten on the feet with strikes besides franklin and bonnar by cut?


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## CopperShark (May 13, 2006)

Biowza said:


> So why don't you put your money where *your* mouth is and actually come up with an argument for once.




LOL @ this whollllee thread. 

NO one would ever call me out like this, ahaha. That's funny. 

Robb did an exceptional job of keeping professional and engaging in a heated discussion. Congrats Robb, you've sucessfully made a knowledgeable member look like an idiot. :thumbsup:

Good thread though. 

P.S. Jeff Joslin is ******* sweet to watch. But not top ten, lol.


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## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

Ebc_Kyle said:


> 1 A. Silva
> 2 L. Machida
> 3 R. Franklin
> 4 G. Pierre
> ...


 Well, I've been gone, and am back to revamp my list a little bit. I've decided to take Fedor out, and instead I'm going to have Spencer Fisher at 5. Also, I'm just going to redo this to the top10 strikers in the UFC (my opinion only). 

5 S. Fisher
6 M. Rua
7 T. Silvia
8 C. Bennet (Exception, I LOVE watching this guy's standup)
9 S. Stout
10 R. Emerson


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Ebc_Kyle said:


> Well, I've been gone, and am back to revamp my list a little bit. I've decided to take Fedor out, and instead I'm going to have Spencer Fisher at 5. Also, I'm just going to redo this to the top10 strikers in the UFC (my opinion only).
> 
> 5 S. Fisher
> 6 M. Rua
> ...


You're taking Fedor out and replacing him with Spencer Fisher, and adding Charles Bennett to your list? 

Here's my list, I tried to comprise it of both technical and effective strikers.

1. Anderson Silva
2. Lyoto Machida
3. Mirko Cro Cop
4. Chuck Liddell
5. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira
6. Marios Zaromskis 
7. Georges St. Pierre 
8. Jeff Joslin
9. Cheick Kongo
10. BJ Penn

I'm surprised no one put Marios Zaromskis on their lists, he's definitely a top 10 striker, especially for the MMA WW division.


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## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

Yeah. I just don't think Fedor is a good striker. I mean, he pretty much runs forward flailing his arms and hits people.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Ebc_Kyle said:


> Yeah. I just don't think Fedor is a good striker. I mean, he pretty much runs forward flailing his arms and hits people.


How is Charles Bennett a good striker then? He does pretty much the same thing, but keeps his hands low.

Fedor's striking isn't typical technique, but the way he throws his punches from his hips works effectively.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

GMW said:


> When we discuss something like this, to me, it's about skill and not as much pure accomplishments. Here's why imo, take Chuck liddell. He primarily counters takedowns and knocks out those with less striking then him. The top end strikers like Rampage and Overeem both beat him simply in the stand up.


Chuck KO'd Overeem and the striking was very close.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

slapshot said:


> Chuck KO'd Overeem and the striking was very close.


I know he KO'd him, but until he gassed he was beating him in the striking. I've seen a couple people say Overeem was losing the striking, or that it was close, but I saw it as overeem winning the stand up easily.


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## leew11k (Nov 19, 2006)

1.Anderson Silva 
2.Fedor Emelianenko 
3.Rogerio Nogueira 
4.Lyoto Machida 
5.Mark Hunt 
6.Mirko Crocop 
7.Chuck Liddell 
8.Wanderlei Silva 
9.igor
10.aleks 

there my list but its to hard to put them in exact order,other guys bj,lawler,gomi,sylvia


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## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

Fedor>all said:


> How is Charles Bennett a good striker then? He does pretty much the same thing, but keeps his hands low.
> 
> Fedor's striking isn't typical technique, but the way he throws his punches from his hips works effectively.


 Because he's black and does backflips off the top of the cage.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

GMW said:


> I know he KO'd him, but until he gassed he was beating him in the striking. I've seen a couple people say Overeem was losing the striking, or that it was close, but I saw it as overeem winning the stand up easily.


Ya it was close but I'd give the slight edge to Overeem


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## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

I can't understand why people took Rich off their list. Rich has great stand-up. Yeah, he got beat by Anderson, but almost everyone has him at #1 on their striker's list.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

GMW said:


> I know he KO'd him, but until he gassed he was beating him in the striking. I've seen a couple people say Overeem was losing the striking, or that it was close, but I saw it as overeem winning the stand up easily.


Like I said the striking was very close. Ive watched that fight prob 100 times it was not a pure schooling by Overeem it was a close fight.



wukkadb said:


> Ya it was close but I'd give the slight edge to Overeem


I agree.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

slapshot said:


> Like I said the striking was very close. Ive watched that fight prob 100 times it was not a pure schooling by Overeem it was a close fight.


I've seen the fight several times, and I always thought it was a good size lead for overeem until he gassed.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Ebc_Kyle said:


> Because he's black and does backflips off the top of the cage.


Good enough for me.

Jeff Joslin's an excellent striker, but when I'm putting together a list really quickly, I tend to forget a lot of homeboys.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

Wow, I miss out on this thread for what...a day? In that short time Biowza goes completely off the deep end and bashes a Mod? Christ. 


:sarcastic10:


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## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

What did he get banned for? Too much text for my eyes.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

Ebc_Kyle said:


> What did he get banned for? Too much text for my eyes.


Bashing Robb repeatedly. It got way too heated and he said some stuff he shouldn't have. Its all in the post that is deleted, so you can't see it. Sorry. :dunno:


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## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

KDS, you're a loser, and adopted.


:confused05:


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

kds13 said:


> Wow, I miss out on this thread for what...a day? In that short time Biowza goes completely off the deep end and bashes a Mod? Christ.
> 
> 
> :sarcastic10:


Id say the thats no a fair statement, the mod is just as guilty as the member, it takes two to have a argument especially one thats a few pages long trust me Ive had a few myself:smoke02:. If you want to get picky both mods broke the tos as well as the member, IMO they look worse :dunno::sarcastic10:


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Ebc_Kyle said:


> Because he's black and does backflips off the top of the cage.


Touche.



slapshot said:


> Id say the thats no a fair statement, the mod is just as guilty as the member, it takes two to have a argument especially one thats a few pages long trust me Ive had a few myself:smoke02:. If you want to get picky both mods broke the tos as well as the member, IMO they look worse :dunno::sarcastic10:


I agree with this. The topic should have been closed or both guys should have been warned, or another moderator/admin should have intervened. I think it's wrong that Biowza's banned, as I've seen way worse responses by posters that haven't been punished at all.:dunno:

Can't you guys just agree to disagree? This is a frickin' opinion based topic for crying out loud.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

Ebc_Kyle said:


> KDS, you're a loser, and adopted.
> 
> 
> :confused05:


:bye02: :laugh:



slapshot said:


> Id say the thats no a fair statement, the mod is just as guilty as the member, it takes two to have a argument especially one thats a few pages long trust me Ive had a few myself:smoke02:. If you want to get picky both mods broke the tos as well as the member, IMO they look worse :dunno::sarcastic10:





Fedor>all said:


> I agree with this. The topic should have been closed or both guys should have been warned, or another moderator/admin should have intervened. I think it's wrong that Biowza's banned, as I've seen way worse responses by posters that haven't been punished at all.:dunno:
> 
> Can't you guys just agree to disagree? This is a frickin' opinion based topic for crying out loud.



I can see both sides. The argument got heated, it is what it is. The problem though is you guys can't see the post in question as for what Bio was temporarily banned for. The things Robb and Bio said in this thread was heated and probably a bit overboard, yes, but what was said in the deleted thread is what took it to that next level that deserved a banning. 

I understand where all you members are coming from, because Robb was talking down to him and shouldn't have. But Bio struck back too harshly and deserved what he got. 

If you guys have any questions, shoot me a pm or something and I'll be more than happy to talk it out, because this discussion deserves a proper Q and A, but we can't keep it going on within this thread. 


Thanks guys, and I really do appreciate your feedback and how you feel about the situations going on. :thumbsup:


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