# Is Fedor's legacy and relevancy fading?



## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

He hasn't re-signed with Strikeforce yet, so there're no fights in the foreseeable future. Given his loss to Werdum, and a noticable media absence since his loss, the question "is Fedor legacy and relevancy fading?" needs to be answered.


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## Adam365 (Jul 10, 2008)

i don't think so, I still think hes a great fighter. The problem everyone has is why doesn't he sign with the UFC? He'd be a great addition to the HW division and if he loses he could fight at LHW.


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

What does this have to do with the UFC?


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

I've been a huge Fedor fan in the past but I honestly think his legacy is in the toilet. In the last two plus years he has basically been a myth. He hasn't fought anyone relevant and has seemed satisfied to enjoy the esteem of his past conquest. He has had plenty opportunity to be in relevant fights but hasn't had the conviction to make them happen. It's hard to believe that Fedor himself believes he is the best HW fighter.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

lol

Do you people know what the word "legacy" means?


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

No, his legacy will always be there. That's why it's a legacy. What you leave behind, and what you leave behind cannot be changed. Thus, all the amazing things, his amazing career/record/ and win/loss ratio, etc, is all there and will never be removed.

How relevant he is in MMA will change, though. Everyone gets irrelevant at some point. Hughes, Liddell, Wandy, countless others. You cannot stay at the top forever, but just like Liddell who got knocked out in like his last 4-5 straight will always have his legacy.

Also, thread moved to STRIKEFORECE.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

M.C said:


> No, his legacy will always be there. That's why it's a legacy. What you leave behind, and what you leave behind cannot be changed. Thus, all the amazing things, his amazing career/record/ and win/loss ratio, etc, is all there and will never be removed.
> 
> How relevant he is in MMA will change, though. Everyone gets irrelevant at some point. Hughes, Liddell, Wandy, countless others. You cannot stay at the top forever, but just like Liddell who got knocked out in like his last 4-5 straight will always have his legacy.
> 
> Also, thread moved to STRIKEFORECE.


I disagree. I think he has seriously tarnished his legacy. He had the same opportunity as all the great Pride alumni had. He could have done what Henderson, Rampage, shogun and the rest chose to do. He could have tried to fight the best. He didn't . He had a couple freak-shows, fought some has-beens and lost to a Werdum. That's not the resume of an all time great.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> lol
> 
> Do you people know what the word "legacy" means?


And I've already thought that it was only my non-English-nativeness which made me wonder...


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Yojimbo said:


> I disagree. I think he has seriously tarnished his legacy. He had the same opportunity as all the great Pride alumni had. He could have done what Henderson, Rampage, shogun and the rest chose to do. He could have tried to fight the best. He didn't . He had a couple freak-shows, fought some has-beens and lost to a Werdum. That's not the resume of an all time great.


You can disagree all you want, that doesn't mean your definition of "legacy" is even remotely accurate.

What he's done in his career as a whole is far greater than 99% of fighters out there. His last few years has not been his best (although he's beaten a a top 10, a top 5, and #2 in the last few years), the same way Liddell's last 2 years was him getting knocked out almost every single fight in the first round, one being a jab against Franklin, and also losing a decison to Jardine.

Using your logic of "legacy", Liddell has one of the worst ones a person can possibly have, which is why your definiton of legacy is ridiculous.

Fedor will be remembered as the greatest HW of all time whose last few years weren't his best. That's how most great fighters end their career.

http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/85380-c...elianenko-best-all-time-would-love-fight.html

Cain, Shogun, GSP, Penn, Sheilds, Bas, Wandy, and probably many other great fighters believe Fedor is not only the best HW, but the greatest fighter of all time.

Trust me, Fedor's legacy is perfectly safe.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

M.C said:


> You can disagree all you want, that doesn't mean your definition of "legacy" is even remotely accurate.
> 
> What he's done in his career as a whole is far greater than 99% of fighters out there. His last few years has not been his best (although he's beaten a a top 10, a top 5, and #2 in the last few years), the same way Liddell's last 2 years was him getting knocked out almost every single fight in the first round, one being a jab against Franklin, and also losing a decison to Jardine.
> 
> ...


That he won against certain opponents is a fact that cannot be changed. But the quality of his past opponents has been questioned when compared to the quality of his would-be-UFC opponents. In that sense, people are questioning his legacy.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

A small portion of fans are questioning. The majority of hardcore MMA fans know and accept Fedor's legacy and what he's done in the sport.

The fighters themselves mostly agree that Fedor is the greatest of all time. Even the UFC's champions like GSP, Cain and Shogun all 3 of them agree Fedor is the greatest.

A portion of fans will always question a fighters legacy, that's how it goes. There are people who question Ali's legacy, does that mean that his legacy is fading? No, he will always go down as one of the greatest boxers of all time, regardless of what a portion of people think.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

M.C., with Ali, it's a little bit different, isn't it? When Ali was fighting in his prime, he fought people who were perceived to be the best. That's not the case with Fedor. He's still relatively young, so I wouldn't say he's over the hill. What is fact is that most people are saying he's not fighting the best right now. 

In fact, it's a lose/lose situation with him. He risks the chance of losing to lesser calibur opponents (which is what happened), or if he wins, then his wins get dismissed because they weren't against the highest-level calibur opponents. Thus, his legacy becomes questioned due to his lack of relevancy.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

His legacy isn't tranished at all. What is your definition of "tarnish", exactly?

The last few years of most great fighters are all bad. Randy, if he retires now, if the only person I can think of that will come out of his career on a high note.

Every UFC champion outside of Anderson states Fedor is the greatest. The majortiy of hardcore MMA fans state Fedor is the greatest. If the majority of fighters and fans alike say Fedor is the greatest, how exactly is his legacy tarnished? 

There will ALWAYS be a portion of fans and the sports community that believe a fighter isn't as good as he is praised or is overhyped or whatever. You cannot help or stop that, that's how fans and people in general are.

However, when the majority of hardcore fans and definitely the majority of fighters themselves state he's the best, then his legacy is perfectly safe.

Also, no, Ali is the same. He's was amazing at his sport and there is a portion who think he is overrated. There's a portion that think Tom Brady is overrated, there's a portion that think Tiger Woods is overrated, Michael Jordan, etc. 

There will always be questions/comments about someone's legacy/career, always. However, when the majority of stars in the sport and the majority of real fans state that a certain person in that sport is the greatest or is amazing, you can conclude that his legacy is perfectly safe.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

By "tarnished" I more or less mean "questioned." So I'm saying people are questioning his legacy because they're questioning the quality of his past opposition, and criticizing his relevancy by questioning his current opposition. 

Now, back to Ali. Yes, I'm sure some people said he was overrated. But if they said without any good reason to back it up, then they can be easily dismissed. However, if they said Ali was overrated because he's not fighting the best at his prime, then they'd have a point if he truly was not fighting the best opponents. That's the difference between Ali and Fedor. Most people are saying Fedor is not fighting the best. I'm starting to agree with them on this, and I want to have a serious, sober conversation about it.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

If by questioning, then I agree. Everyone questions the greatest of each sport. People quesiton Tiger, people question Jordan, people question pretty much every great of every sport. 

Fedor's legacy is far from "tranished", as his legacy is to this day being priased by high level, super star fighters and fans alike as being the greatest in the sports history to this day. 

Fedor's not in his prime. Fedor is 34 years old and has been fighting for over a decade all around the world. He's not over the hill by any means, but he's not in his prime, either.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

M.C said:


> If by questioning, then I agree. Everyone questions the greatest of each sport. People quesiton Tiger, people question Jordan, people question pretty much every great of every sport.
> 
> Fedor's legacy is far from "tranished", as his legacy is to this day being priased by high level, super star fighters and fans alike as being the greatest in the sports history to this day.
> 
> Fedor's not in his prime. Fedor is 34 years old and has been fighting for over a decade all around the world. He's not over the hill by any means, but he's not in his prime, either.


Well, Ali was 33 when he beat Frazier and Foreman, and was 34 when he beat Frazier again. 

It doesn't matter whether people called Ali overrated. What matters is was Ali fighting the best. At Fedor's age, Ali was fighting the best. You cannot say the samething about Fedor. That's the problem. Another problem was did he fight the best in the PAST? I think he did at the time (I think Pride's HW division was much better than UFC's), but I'm not so sure about the best right NOW. The problem really is his legacy isn't finished. He's still 34 years young, and his current relevancy can affect his legacy when it is finally finished.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Is Ali fighting the best RIGHT NOW? Nope, he's retired. Let's say Fedor retired right now. Would he still be getting the same hate? Yup, you bet he would. You know why? People find reasons to hate on great fighters and question their legacy/career, it happens to all great sportsmen.

If Fedor retired last year, would we be having this conversation? Yup, cause people would be still saying "Fedor only beat Sylvia and Arlovski before he retired", even though they were both highly ranked. Why? Cause people will find a way or reason to disagree with someone's career.

What Fedor has done in his career cannot be forgotten, and if he was retired he'd be getting the same crap now as he would if he was retired. Just becasue he's still fighting does not mean that his legacy or career or anything is even slightly tarnished. What he's done is done, and what he's done is amazing and will always be amazing, no matter what he does right now or in the future, retired or not retired, here or there, it does not matter.

A legacy is what have you done in your career, and Fedor's career is being praised right now to this day by Legends, P4P contenders, current and former champions, as well as a very, very large portion of hardcore MMA fans as the best in the sport's history.

His legacy is set in stone, what he has done is there. What he does from now on will always be questioned, as it would be with any other great fighter, but that does not remove the past or his legacy as a whole.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/2/Sherdog-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-15631

Andrei Arlovski - Number 2 Heavyweight in the World.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/2/Sherdog-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-20584

Brett Rogers - Number 6 Heavyweight in the World.

His 09 campaign, keep in mind Affliction went under which kept him from fighting because Barnett was roided up, to say he doesn't fight the best, or atleast top ten guys is insane. He has the best resume of any Heavyweight and he's the most well rounded fighter in the history of the sport. He doesn't need the UFC, he was already the number one Heavyweight in PRIDE back when it was on top.

His legacy is safe, even with the Werdum loss, no one can compare to Fedor.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

tecnotut said:


> Well, Ali was 33 when he beat Frazier and Foreman, and was 34 when he beat Frazier again.
> 
> It doesn't matter whether people called Ali overrated. What matters is was Ali fighting the best. At Fedor's age, Ali was fighting the best. You cannot say the samething about Fedor. That's the problem. Another problem was did he fight the best in the PAST? I think he did at the time (I think Pride's HW division was much better than UFC's), but I'm not so sure about the best right NOW. The problem really is his legacy isn't finished. He's still 34 years young, and his current relevancy can affect his legacy when it is finally finished.


As far as I got into the English language "legacy" can be translated into "something which is left behind". Now, Emelianenko leaves behind that he dominated the HW devision of MMA over several *years* (you admit yourself that Pride's HW devision was better than UFC's at that time). Will that be changed in any way by the way he performs today¿ No. Will he not have dominated MMA's HW devision over years when he goes on a 10 loss streak from today on¿ No. In that case one can say that he wasn't smart enough to see the right point when to retire, but he will still leave behind that he dominated MMA's HW devision over years and that's something noone else can claim until now (how long did Lesnar rule UFC HW¿ Sylvia¿ Couture¿).

His "legacy" can only be overthrown if i.e. he openly admits that at that time he ate roided babies with the goal of getting superhuman powers or something like that, but until there isn't anything that puts his achievements into another light, his legacy persists.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Since M.C is doing an awesome work in this thread, i feel no need to express myself but to say that i agree.

Fedor's legacy isn't affected but he isn't as relevant as he used to be.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

M.C said:


> Is Ali fighting the best RIGHT NOW? Nope, he's retired. Let's say Fedor retired right now. Would he still be getting the same hate? Yup, you bet he would. You know why? People find reasons to hate on great fighters and question their legacy/career, it happens to all great sportsmen.
> 
> If Fedor retired last year, would we be having this conversation? Yup, cause people would be still saying "Fedor only beat Sylvia and Arlovski before he retired", even though they were both highly ranked. Why? Cause people will find a way or reason to disagree with someone's career.
> 
> ...


I'm curious, what do you consider Fedors Top 3 victories (most significant) in MMA. 

He is squandering his prime, he had the opportunity to fight the best but he chose to sit on the sidelines and fight some hacks 

Greatest of all Time? No. Because when the opportunity presented itself to be tested in the most competitive division he was nowhere to be found.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

Voiceless,*
I'm okay with saying that Fedor is the greatest HW during the Pride era, but not the greatest fighter now or ever. He's lost that top position not because he's over the hill, but because he's not fighting the best. If, for example, he fought in the UFC and won the belt, then I'd feel comfortable calling him the greatest now and the greatest ever.


M.C.
We seem to be going in circles. What's done is done. Fedor beat fighter X at such and such date. The question is whether that fighter is or was the best at that time. Arlovski and Sylvia wouldn't last long in the UFC. Neither Cro Cop nor Noguiera are serious contenders. Werdum is certainly not the best, wouldn't you agree? I think Werdum as as good as the above fighters, but I wouldn't say he's the best.

Ali fought the best at Fedor's age, and won. Fedor is not fighting the best at Ali's age, and lost. *Ali was still beating the best in his mid 30's, that's why his legacy is what it is. *Fedor's legacy is not over yet, and it's headed towards the wrong direction.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

tecnotut said:


> Fedor beat fighter X at such and such date. The question is whether that fighter is or was the best at that time. Arlovski and Sylvia wouldn't last long in the UFC. Neither Cro Cop nor Noguiera are serious contenders. Werdum is certainly not the best, wouldn't you agree?
> 
> *Fedor's legacy is not over yet, and it's headed towards the wrong direction.


Well played tecnotut. I have a feeling you have just ended this debate. Bravo!


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## FrodoFraggins (Oct 25, 2009)

His legacy is secured. His relevancy is certainly fading as he and his management stall on moving past his loss to Werdum. The guy needs to fight, otherwise he's just resting on his past accomplishments waiting for his rematch with Werdum.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Fedor's relevancy is rapidly fading and even more importantly yes his legacy is being destroyed. When people though of Fedor a year ago they thought of him as the ultimate bad ass and his legacy would have been that of one of the most respected and beloved fighters in the history of the sport. Now when many people think of Fedor they think of ducked fights and slime ball back door politics. Many people argued that Fedor's record can never be taken away from him and that is true but a fighters record does not directly correspond to his legacy. Chuck Lidell's legacy is just as rooted in the love and respect of the fans as it is in his win/loss record. Fedor's stock with fans is dropping because of political games and that will forever tarnish his legacy unless something drastic changes.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Fedor isn't ducking "the best" because "the best" aren't just in the UFC. The UFC's HW division is crap, so is SF's, but SF's is less crap than the UFC's which is filled with a bunch of overhyped fighters. Like I've said countless times, Dana's really gotten into your heads by making you think a guy has to be in the UFC to prove himself. Quit buying the hype and realize Fedor has been fighting top comp outside of the organization. If you do a little research you'll see that he's been facing the best outside of the UFC. Now don't go on and say the best HW's outside of the UFC are worse comp than the ones in the UFC...the only thing really hurting Fedor is that he's obviously ducking Overeem...


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

If I went unbeaten for 10 years as an MMA fighter and then retired, then my legacy is that I went unbeaten for 10 years.

If I went unbeaten for 10 years as an MMA fighter and then fought a bunch of cans for 5 years before retiring?... guess what?... my legacy is that I went unbeaten for 10 years.

Theres no fecking difference. Some of you need to wake up. For years and years Fedor fought the best HW's in the world and won. No other HW has done that since. I dont give a shit what happened in the last year or so. It doesnt take away from the fact that he did a Silva/GSP on the HW division and did it for longer than anybody else.

Of course, some whiney idiot is going to waffle on about how rubbish it HW's were back in the day. So, fecking, what? They were still the best HW's in the world at the time.

Should we write off Fangio because F1 cars were so slow back then? Or dismiss Pele as a rubbish footballer because the quality of football was rubbish in the 60's? How about we call Royce Gracie shite because Matt Hughes crushed him 8 years *after *he launched BJJ around the world.

I dont know why I'm responding to this hater rubbish... but hey... what else is there to do.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

M.C said:


> The last few years of most great fighters are all bad. Randy, if he retires now, if the only person I can think of that will come out of his career on a high note.


Yeah its true, only person i can think of is good old Bas Rutten


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

ptw said:


> Fedor isn't ducking "the best" because "the best" aren't just in the UFC. The UFC's HW division is crap, so is SF's, but SF's is less crap than the UFC's which is filled with a bunch of overhyped fighters. Like I've said countless times, Dana's really gotten into your heads by making you think a guy has to be in the UFC to prove himself. Quit buying the hype and realize Fedor has been fighting top comp outside of the organization. If you do a little research you'll see that he's been facing the best outside of the UFC. Now don't go on and say the best HW's outside of the UFC are worse comp than the ones in the UFC...the only thing really hurting Fedor is that he's obviously ducking Overeem...


The "best" outside the UFC is the Reem and Fedor has been ducking him harder than the drunken Uncle at the family reunion. If I do my research? Ah the best must be the guy who lost two in a row before barely being able to beat Reuben Vilreal? Don't get me wrong I am not shitting on Arlovski or Sylvia both were quality opponents at the time but since he joined SF he has not been fighting the best they have to offer.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Overeem hasn't exactly made it easy to setup a fight either, they both have the worst management it seems for making fights we want. Also, since Brock is no longer the god among men some people thought, the UFC HW division doesn't have a single threat to Fedor worse than Overeem. So if/when Fedor beats him, that's the final piece in cementing his legacy, no questions asked.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> The "best" outside the UFC is the Reem and Fedor has been ducking him harder than the drunken Uncle at the family reunion.


Keep thinking that go up to Fedor and ask him if he wants to fight Reem see if his answer is no.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Toxic said:


> The "best" outside the UFC is the Reem and Fedor has been ducking him harder than the drunken Uncle at the family reunion. If I do my research? Ah the best must be the guy who lost two in a row before barely being able to beat Reuben Vilreal? Don't get me wrong I am not shitting on Arlovski or Sylvia both were quality opponents at the time but since he joined SF he has not been fighting the best they have to offer.


If the best outside the UFC are only reem and Fedor then the best inside the UFC is only Cain Velazquez cuz you know as well as I do the division is an overhyped joke. When the previous champion is scared to get hit by punches like he was it says a lot about the quality of opponents in the HW division.


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## Nikkolai (Jan 7, 2008)

Fighting the best? He can't fight himself. I always thought that people go after the best, like king of the hill thing. You got to love marketing and hype (*cough*UFC*cough). I'd rather agree with fighters than so called "fans" who they think the best ever was. I have nothing against any organization btw.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Keep thinking that go up to Fedor and ask him if he wants to fight Reem see if his answer is no.


 Actions speak louder than words.



ptw said:


> If the best outside the UFC are only reem and Fedor then the best inside the UFC is only Cain Velazquez cuz you know as well as I do the division is an overhyped joke. When the previous champion is scared to get hit by punches like he was it says a lot about the quality of opponents in the HW division.


Say what you want Brock manned up signed the contract and stepped in the cage which is more than Fedor is doing these days.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Actions speak louder than words.
> 
> 
> 
> Say what you want Brock manned up signed the contract and stepped in the cage which is more than Fedor is doing these days.


Fedor's fought and beat more top ten opponents than Lesnar's had fights.

And after seeing how Brock goes into panic mode once someone touches him, all Fedor would have to do is land one shot and he'd send Brock to the floor and follow up with strikes.

Lesnar's just a big guy with wrestling, he got his shit jacked by Cain just be glad it wasn't by Fedor.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

EliteUndisputed said:


> Fedor's fought and beat more top ten opponents than Lesnar's had fights.


Oh sure he has about five years ago, if Silva beats him he's out of the top ten.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Silva won't beat him though, he was given huge trouble by Mike Kyle FFS. Fedor walks through him in the first round, TKO after knocking him down on the feet.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

John8204 said:


> Oh sure he has about five years ago, if Silva beats him he's out of the top ten.


Tim Syliva, Andrei Arlovski, Brett Rogers, and Werdum were all ranked in the top ten.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

EliteUndisputed said:


> Tim Syliva, Andrei Arlovski, Brett Rogers, and Werdum were all ranked in the top ten.


Maybe before...definitely not after.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

So....Whose better than Fedor then?


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

EliteUndisputed said:


> So....Whose better than Fedor then?


Who's better, who can say? Who would win in an MMA match? There's a long list of potentials. 

Cain I believe would beat Fedor. Brock may very well beat Fedor (here comes the hate). Overeem I believe might also beat Fedor. Everyone wants to point at Brock and say he was so overrated (bullshiit), Brock can give almost any fighter in the world a really hard time if he gets on top and that what he's trained to do. Right now I think there's a rather large handful of fighters that have an advantage and would likely beat Fedor.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Fedor will go down as the best HW of all time when he hangs them up.

However I think from an unbiased perspective you have to lose respect for the man. He was not in the twilight of his career after Pride...and he isn't now. Perhaps downside now, but lets be honest he isn't that old. I lose respect for him because it doesn't seem like he loves competition at the MMA level. Greats usually crumble at the end of their careers....to the best fighters in the world. Look how Chuck went out...Rampage, Shogun, Franklin...he only wanted the best fights. Look at Randy....sure his stint at 205 recently hasn't been great in terms of opponents...but the man is 4 freaking 6 years old. He was fighting the best 205s and ginats at HW when he was in his 40s....that is incredible. And he has recently said he would like a match with Machida or Shogun. You don't really see Fedor calling out the best and Randy is like 13 years his elder.

Great fighters love competition and aren't afraid to lose. I just feel Fedor has done the "Mayweather thing" after Pride. Perhaps he listens too much to his management, but that is his own fault. Would have been nice to see the guy who was labled the best fighter of all time, actually seek the best fighters after Pride went down. To me he has tried to protect his unbeaten record and even failed at that by losing to Werdum.

I've lost a little respect for the guy, but I realize as a whole, he is the best HW of all time. And that isn't changing until someone else comes along and has an amazing career.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

ptw said:


> If the best outside the UFC are only reem and Fedor then the best inside the UFC is only Cain Velazquez cuz you know as well as I do the division is an overhyped joke. When the previous champion is scared to get hit by punches like he was it says a lot about the quality of opponents in the HW division.


You can think what you want about who has better HWs. Truth is who knows until they actually fight. JDS has a win over Werdum...that is about the only fact you can throw out there.

At least in the UFC they try to match up the 2 best guys. 

Isn't it sort of pathetic that Overeem has been the title holder for 3 years and has defended once against Brett Rogers? Isn't it sort of sad that they brought Fedor in to SF and he and his management has demanded so much....yet he hasn't even fought for their belt...and hasn't even fought the best guy they have? Why was Fedor coming to SF such a big deal if he isn't even going to fight their champ?

You can't argue that this situation isn't pathetic.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

John8204 said:


> Maybe before...definitely not after.


Who cares about AFTER, WHEN HE FOUGHT THEM THEY WERE RANKED. That's all you need to know. Arlovski is a former UFC HW Champ, Sylvia former two time champ...honestly man you guys just like to talk shit. 



Toxic said:


> Say what you want Brock manned up signed the contract and stepped in the cage which is more than Fedor is doing these days.


It's not about manning up, signing the contract and stepping into the cage...it's about proving you deserve to be champ, and when your organizations champion is afraid to get hit it says a lot about the level of opposition in the organization. You know UFC HW division is all hype, quit dismissing my point and trying to make it about something completely irrelevant.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> You can think what you want about who has better HWs. Truth is who knows until they actually fight. JDS has a win over Werdum...that is about the only fact you can throw out there.
> 
> At least in the UFC they try to match up the 2 best guys.


They match up the 2 guys who everyone thinks are the best. Any argument that is made about the level of competition Fedor has faced can be made for anyone in the UFC, but for some reason everyone likes to quote Dana's fallacious statement that, "The best fighters are in the UFC." 



> Isn't it sort of pathetic that Overeem has been the title holder for 3 years and has defended once against Brett Rogers? Isn't it sort of sad that they brought Fedor in to SF and he and his management has demanded so much....yet he hasn't even fought for their belt...and hasn't even fought the best guy they have? Why was Fedor coming to SF such a big deal if he isn't even going to fight their champ?


That's all fight politics, not the fighters faults really more so the management of the fighters and the management of the organization. There's no doubt in my mind the UFC is ran in a much more professional manner than Strikeforce or other organizations around the world. My problem is that everyone seems to think that if you're not fighting someone in the UFC then you're fighting a can, unless you're fighting Overeem obv. Like, if Fedor fought Werdum or Rogers in the UFC those fighters would be more legit wins on his resume just because they were in the UFC, and not because they were riding impressive winning streaks...it's dumb.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

Yojimbo said:


> Who's better, who can say? Who would win in an MMA match? There's a long list of potentials.
> 
> Cain I believe would beat Fedor. Brock may very well beat Fedor (here comes the hate). Overeem I believe might also beat Fedor. Everyone wants to point at Brock and say he was so overrated (bullshiit), Brock can give almost any fighter in the world a really hard time if he gets on top and that what he's trained to do. Right now I think there's a rather large handful of fighters that have an advantage and would likely beat Fedor.


Could they beat him? Of course they could.

But as far as legacy, and overall career, who is the greatest Heavyweight in MMA history? Who is the best fighter in history? Who is the most dominant fighter in history? It's Fedor. He has a legit loss to Werdum yes, but so do Anderson and GSP. And I think people would rather take the submission to Werdum over Ryo Chonan and Takese. Anderson and GSP while they're amazing fighters and dominant champions, they haven't been on top for nearly as long as Fedor has.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

EliteUndisputed said:


> . Anderson and GSP while they're amazing fighters and dominant champions, they haven't been on top for nearly as long as Fedor has.


This statement is barely true and doesn't really hold much weight. Do you still consider Fedor to be on top? when did he fall off? When pride dissolved in 2006. 
Yes I agree that he is the best HW in history right now. I think Fedors win streak is the equivalent to defending a belt in the UFC 10 or so times. Both are tremendous fetes but lets acknowledge that not all of those 29 or so consecutive wins were against credible opponents.


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

EliteUndisputed said:


> So....Whose better than Fedor then?


Every single fighter in the top 10 besides Antonio Silva and Big Nog. Even with the right gameplan, Antonio Silva can probably beat Fedor.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

EliteUndisputed said:


> Fedor's fought and beat more top ten opponents than Lesnar's had fights.
> 
> And after seeing how Brock goes into panic mode once someone touches him, all Fedor would have to do is land one shot and he'd send Brock to the floor and follow up with strikes.
> 
> Lesnar's just a big guy with wrestling, he got his shit jacked by Cain just be glad it wasn't by Fedor.


Absolutely Fedor has fought some great fighters but that doesn't change the fact that him and M-1 are ducking Overeem. Say what you want but but Brock fought who ever the UFC put in front of him. If the UFC wanted to put Brock/Fedor together tommorow I am 100% positive Brock would sign the contract, Fedor not so sure. I am not saying Brock is a better fighter than Fedor or that he would win but the fact is that it seems like M-1 and Fedor are putting his career in survival mode where they are more concerned with protecting his record than they are with fighting the best fighters available.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

I consider Fedor to be on top from the Big Nog win till the Werdum loss.

I wouldn't say they're ducking Overeem, he entered the K-1 under his own free will and M-1 began talking up the Werdum rematch. I'm sure he's not the first guy on the top of their list as he could beat Fedor, possibly easily? M-1 is very difficult, and you're probably right about the Brock/Fedor fight.

Why wasn't Fedor/Overeem made in the first place though? Instead of Overeem/Rogers, I still never figuered that one out. Was it M-1? These guys are screwing us over when it comes to Fedor.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

EliteUndisputed said:


> I consider Fedor to be on top from the Big Nog win till the Werdum loss.
> 
> I wouldn't say they're ducking Overeem, he entered the K-1 under his own free will and M-1 began talking up the Werdum rematch. I'm sure he's not the first guy on the top of their list as he could beat Fedor, possibly easily? M-1 is very difficult, and you're probably right about the Brock/Fedor fight.
> 
> Why wasn't Fedor/Overeem made in the first place though? Instead of Overeem/Rogers, I still never figuered that one out. Was it M-1? These guys are screwing us over when it comes to Fedor.


Because Fedor/M-1 wanted a longer break between fights. Then they were unhappy with the SF/M-1 co-promotion so SF went and found somebody with no hang ups to fight the Reem. Then Fedor fought Werdum and Werdum was injured so SF wanted to do Fedro/Overeem any way but Fedor wanted a second Werdum fight instead so Overeem went to K-1. Now Fedor is fighting BigFoot instead of Overeem or Werdum so my head hurts so bad its gonna explode. My only logical conclusion is that the real Fedor got sent on some top secret mission to another planet and M-1 built a robot to take his place but unfortunately they forgot to give the robot some balls.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

What legacy?

Fedor is history, nothing more.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Fedor has the best legacy in the HW division. Fedor was evolved, the sport wasn't.

BUT, the sport has evolved and Fedor has not fought as part of that evolution. 

Fedor was the best while the sport was in it's infancy, he hasn't prooven he is still the best now it has caught up with his skill-set. 

And it looks like Overeem will be in the UFC soon (Dana knows his drawing potential, he isn't averse to moving to UFC and Dana is loving the new K-1 Champ tag). So Fedor doesn't have the best competition left in SF, except for some solid potential up and comers. BTW, why all the love for Werdum? He got manhandled by Jacare in a grappling contest, he is so over-rated after the Fedor win it is not funny. Basically all the top UFC (apparently hyped heavyweights) would crush him.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Yes....when your not in the mix you quickly get forgotten....


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

The mix is completely a joke in the HW division though. Overeem and fedor are the two top HW's now. Cain is a close 3rd. Do we really believe, Mir, Carwin, Kongo, Lesnar are the elite top HW's? Fedor and Overeem would have a field day with them.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Again, who has Overeem beat again? As been said before, people are rating him on what he could do, not on what he has done. Big big difference.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

I'm not gonna defend Overeem, he's nowhere near the level Fedor has reached. I guess you could say, the entire HW division minus Fedor, are unproven. This is the reason Fedor is, and will be the greatest, and his legacy stands.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, Fedor's legacy will always stand. His relevancy however is a completely different story. Relevancy remember can change just like Ken Shamrock's relevancy has!


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Ken shamrock is a badass, we're talking chuck noris credentials.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

That badass has lost seven of his last nine fights in the past five years. If you are referring to back in the day when he won the UFC Superfight Championship, King of Pancrase, Pancrase Tournament, and WMMAA Heavyweight Championship then yeah back when we were little kids he was a badass. Then if you are talking about his prowrestling when he when the SAPW Heavyweight Championship, NWA World Heavyweight Championship, WWF Intercontenental Title, WWF Tag Team Championship, and King of the Ring then yeah he is a prowrestling badass!


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

Unfortunately for Fedor, he hasn't done much recently while such fighters as Overeem and Velasquez achieved some awesome accomplishments. They both are more than capable to beat him and I'm sure they would. But Fedor will always be associated with PRIDE era... kind of like Wanderlei Silva.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

ptw said:


> They match up the 2 guys who everyone thinks are the best. Any argument that is made about the level of competition Fedor has faced can be made for anyone in the UFC, but for some reason everyone likes to quote Dana's fallacious statement that, "The best fighters are in the UFC."
> 
> 
> 
> That's all fight politics, not the fighters faults really more so the management of the fighters and the management of the organization. There's no doubt in my mind the UFC is ran in a much more professional manner than Strikeforce or other organizations around the world. My problem is that everyone seems to think that if you're not fighting someone in the UFC then you're fighting a can, unless you're fighting Overeem obv. Like, if Fedor fought Werdum or Rogers in the UFC those fighters would be more legit wins on his resume just because they were in the UFC, and not because they were riding impressive winning streaks...it's dumb.


I don't see JDS or Cain going to Japan to fight straight cans. And JDS KO'd Werdum badly. That is the only fight where you can compare the 2 rosters. There is no fact you can throw out to say which side is better. But you can say the UFC #1 contender KO'd Werdum who beat Fedor. At least that is fact.

And politics my ass. Then man the hell up and get better management. It is straight up pathetic that the all might Fedor went to SF....it was a huge deal. And he hasn't even fought for the belt yet. Hasn't even fought the best guy in the promotion. Nevermind the UFC...he didn't sign with them. But at least he could fight the best fighter in the promotion that he did sign with....ya know?


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Yojimbo said:


> I disagree. I think he has seriously tarnished his legacy. He had the same opportunity as all the great Pride alumni had. He could have done what Henderson, Rampage, shogun and the rest chose to do. He could have tried to fight the best. He didn't . He had a couple freak-shows, fought some has-beens and lost to a Werdum. That's not the resume of an all time great.


What does a legacy of an "All time great" look like??

I would imagine it would look something like this.


+Going undefeated for 33 fights and going undefeated in over 10 years. This could possibly be a record in mma? 

_(We all know the DQ loss cant be counted because not only was it only a loss because the format said there had to be a winner/loser, it was actually an ILLEGAL elbow that caused the cut that stopped the fight. In reality Fedors opponent deserved to be disqualified or it should have been ruled a no contest. Fedor murdered this man in their rematch.)_

+Having wins over MMA legends such as
*Renato Sobral
Semmy Schilt
Heath Herring
Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira x2
Kazuyuki Fujita
Gary Goodridge
Kevin Randleman
Mirko Filipović*
*Mark Coleman* x2
*Mark Hunt
Matt Lindland*
*Tim Sylvia *_(Who at the time has to have a good record. I think something like 24-4 sounds good and also the loses have to be only to the best)_
*Andrei Arlovski* _(Must be on atleast a 5 fight win streak and 3 of those fights must be in the UFC.)
_

(I seriously doubt we are going to find someone who has fought all these people and who has beat them. This doesnt sound likely for any fighter so i doubt we will have a *All Time Great* legacy any time soon. 

Last person to have held the PRIDE Heavyweight title.


-Fighting Network RINGS
RINGS Openweight Championship (1 Time, Last)[91]
2001 RINGS World Heavyweight Class Tournament Winner
2002 RINGS Absolute Class Tournament Winner
-PRIDE Fighting Championships
PRIDE World Heavyweight Championship (1 Time, Last)
2004 PRIDE Heavyweight Grand Prix Winner
-Black Belt Magazine
2004 NHB Fighter of the Year [1]
-Sherdog
2009 Knockout of the Year vs Andrei Arlovski 
-World Alliance of Mixed Martial Arts
World Alliance of Mixed Martial Arts World Heavyweight Championship (1 Time, First)
-Wrestling Observer Newsletter
2005 Most Outstanding Fighter

_(I doubt anyone can have all those achievements in 1 life time.)_

Holds 12, 1'st place ***** Championships.

Holds wins over 5 different UFC champions. Including rematches 7-0.


Well now. Would you agree with me that if a fighter has done all this with their career that he would very well be considered one of the all time greats. It would be even more impressive if this man was still competing. But i think we are kidding ourself if we actually think someone like this will ever come along......  ...... WAIT a minute! :confused02: i have to read this :bye02: holy crap.. we do have a man with this resume. His name is Fedor Emelianenko.... raise01: raise01: 

He is still the best overall fighter in MMA. His recent activities haven't changed that. If GSP continues his tear for another 3-4 years, then GSP could hold that title and same goes to Anderson.

Il also go on record and say that if Fedor gets a rematch with Werdum ever, he would drop him like he did but this time he wouldn't get careless and would finish with the tko victory.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Goodridge, Randleman, Mark Hunt, Lindland, and Schilt are MMA legends?

lol.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Goodridge, Randleman, Mark Hunt, Lindland, and Schilt are MMA legends?
> 
> lol.


Well i could have used Fighting legends. Point being.. they are legends. You dont need to have a good record to become one. Randleman,hunt,lindland, Schilt i will certainly remember 50 years from now. Goodridge.. not so sure. But look at the fights he has had. Certainly has gave his life to the sport. Why shouldnt he be considered a legend?

also i just realized. Its weird that that is what you would comment on. hmm.. you must not be very smart so you dont feel you can actually contribute too much. Well thats ok.. dont feel bad buddy


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

SideWays222 said:


> Well i could have used Fighting legends. Point being.. they are legends. You dont need to have a good record to become one. Randleman,hunt,lindland, Schilt i will certainly remember 50 years from now. Goodridge.. not so sure. But look at the fights he has had. Certainly has gave his life to the sport. Why shouldnt he be considered a legend?


No. If that is your definition of legend...then I don't see how that is a relevant aspect of what you are trying to say. Beating Nog, CC, Coleman are big accomplishments. Collecting "named fighters" who aren't great MMA fighters isn't that big of an accomplishment.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, just beating big name fighters doesn't make you a legend. Beating big name fighters who have accomplished things that you have also accomplished is what makes you a legend. They can't just be good at one part of the game they need to be good at multiple parts of the game which Fedor is and Fedor has beat those guys!:thumbsup:


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

No one likes to give Fedor the credit he deserves because they want to see him REALLY lose, even after the loss to Werdum people aren't satisfied they want to see him dominated so they can dismiss his accomplishments. The guy refuses to go away, and even when he loses people aren't satisfied with the loss so he's still in people's minds pestering them, making them wonder..."shit, this guy could probably Cain, this guy could probably beat Lesnar, this guy could probably beat etc. but why isn't he fighting them...?" 

I think there isn't much to Fedor. He trains in his hometown in Russia, he has a blank expression during his fights, and when he wins he simply raises his fist in the air. I really don't think he cares who his opponent is, I don't think he's scared to fight anyone, I think it's just his management. They do a great job you gotta admit, I bet Fedor makes good money in all his fights, no doubt about it.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, Fedor made a mistake in that fight and the first loss in his career was a fluke as we all know. I think one of those guys could beat him but for right now that may not happen. Obviously he knows how to keep a poker face!


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> What does a legacy of an "All time great" look like??
> 
> I would imagine it would look something like this.
> 
> ...


If you want to give Fedor a break on the DQ loss due to technicalities than you have to give him one for the Arona fight since it was a travesty of a decision. You can't have your cake and eat it to.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well he still has a record win streak just the same. The fact that the win streak lasted as long as it did and span as long as it did is amazing. Forget counting the DQ loss!


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> If you want to give Fedor a break on the DQ loss due to technicalities than you have to give him one for the Arona fight since it was a travesty of a decision. You can't have your cake and eat it to.


A bad decision isnt the same as a against the rules loss. What Fedors opponent did was illegal. Did Fedor do anything that was illegal and was awarded the win?? No... he was just awarded the win.

Sorry but you are reaching trying categorize it was the same thing. We both know it isnt... Fedors opponent has control over whether he hits someone with an illegal blow but Fedor has no control over the judges. So sorry... in this case i can have my cake and eat it too.




jonnyg4508 said:


> No. If that is your definition of legend...then I don't see how that is a relevant aspect of what you are trying to say. Beating Nog, CC, Coleman are big accomplishments. Collecting "named fighters" who aren't great MMA fighters isn't that big of an accomplishment.


Because not only were these guys not that bad when Fedor beat them. He beat them without a single loss. This certainly adds to one of the greatest legacys of all time. Being a legend killer is a great thing to add to your resume. Though i can see that most of you would not agree that those people are legends but then dont take away from the fact that he beat all those guys without suffering a loss. Thats still an amazing feat.. and proves everything i want it to prove.


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## kay_o_ken (Jan 26, 2009)

fedor faded a while ago and his relevancy went with it


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> A bad decision isnt the same as a against the rules loss. What Fedors opponent did was illegal. Did Fedor do anything that was illegal and was awarded the win?? No... he was just awarded the win.
> 
> Sorry but you are reaching trying categorize it was the same thing. We both know it isnt... Fedors opponent has control over whether he hits someone with an illegal blow but Fedor has no control over the judges. So sorry... in this case i can have my cake and eat it too.
> 
> ...


Actually you don't you see I will give you a history lesson. The cut that Fedor had was not caused by that elbow the cut was from the Arona fight. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka was Japanese and the Japanese early on are renown for being crooked. This was an attempt IMO to get Kohsaka to advance because he was the "hometown" guy if you will. Why is it that Fedor was allowed to continue in the Arona fight and then advance with the cut? because they thought a wounded fighter made the easier opponent. Arona was already an accomplished grappler were Fedor had yet to make a name for himself. They screwed Arona so they could give Kohsaka an easier win which they did by then screwing Fedor. Yeah the crooked Japanese gave Fedor a screw job loss but it was in a fight he wouldn't have even been in had they not gave him a screw job win before that.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Actually you don't you see I will give you a history lesson. The cut that Fedor had was not caused by that elbow the cut was from the Arona fight. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka was Japanese and the Japanese early on are renown for being crooked. This was an attempt IMO to get Kohsaka to advance because he was the "hometown" guy if you will. Why is it that Fedor was allowed to continue in the Arona fight and then advance with the cut? because they thought a wounded fighter made the easier opponent. Arona was already an accomplished grappler were Fedor had yet to make a name for himself. They screwed Arona so they could give Kohsaka an easier win which they did by then screwing Fedor. Yeah the crooked Japanese gave Fedor a screw job loss but it was in a fight he wouldn't have even been in had they not gave him a screw job win before that.


Uhhh and you didnt change anything with this history lesson. 

Was the the elbow that opened up the cut on fedors face illegal or was it not illegal?? Was the fight stopped because of this cut?... ok moving on. Did Fedor bribe the judges during the arona fight, or possibly he could have used some jedi mind tricks??? Or is Fedor someone who simply came to fight and got mixed up in the middle of what you would call a "conspiracy theory".?? Your story changes nothing. Toxic just stop it... your pulling at straws and its pathetic. You can give me a history lesson dating back to the beginning of time and that still wouldnt change the fact that Fedor has nothing to do with bad judges. If you want to take it out on someone.. go take it out on the Japanese who set up your little conspiracy theory. Fedor got an L on his record because he was hit with an illegal elbow that REopened up a cut. In normal rules the opponent would have either been DQ or the fight would have been a NC. Once again i might point out that Fedor is just an innocent by-standard. 

mmmmmm thank you for the cake.
It is delicious!!!!!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, the fight was stopped because of the illegal elbow. As for the Arona fight, I'm more likely to believe the mind trick explanation. We all know that alot of what the Japanese do doesn't make sense!


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