# What do Dan Henderson, Chael Sonnen, and Frank Mir all have in common?



## LL (Mar 12, 2011)




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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

What!? HOW DARE HE DO SOMETHING WITHIN THE RULES! MIR IS A CHEAT AND A PHONY! I'M NO LONGER A FAN!

herp derp


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Just makes JDS that much cooler for putting a whooping on someone who needed that to compete.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Seems legit.


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## tight (Aug 26, 2007)

I thought Mir looked kinda flabby and outta shape compared to some of his previous fights


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## Ludinator (Mar 15, 2012)

> The acceptance of testosterone replacement therapy in mixed martial arts continues to be a growing issue, and yet another very high profile UFC fighter has been approved for the treatment.
> 
> According to Nevada State Athletic Commission executive director Keith Kizer, Mir applied, and received a therapeutic use exemption for, the treatment for his fight with Junior dos Santos at UFC 146.*
> 
> ...


So they took a TRT user of the main event (Overeem) and replaced him with another one (Mir)....... Ohhh so that's how thing work. What a joke.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

Ludinator said:


> So they took a TRT user of the main event (Overeem) and replaced him with another one (Mir)....... Ohhh so that's how thing work. What a joke.


Mir was within the allowed levels, Overeem wasn't.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Not really a surprise. It was speculated that Mir was using steroids when he put on like 25lbs of muscle in between the Carwin fights...the dude got huge. Everyone already knew he was roiding.


MMA is pretty much a joke now.


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## Ludinator (Mar 15, 2012)

TheLyotoLegion said:


> Mir was within the allowed levels, Overeem wasn't.


There is a reason they need TRT in the first place ..... Steroids.


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## MikeHawk (Sep 11, 2009)

Almost every drug tested sport allows the use of steroids and TRT if you get a therapeutic exemption. Sometimes they are necessary due to medical conditions and sometimes they're needed because the guy was already taking steroids illegally and he'll get severely sick without them. There's a lot of grey area in between so people shouldn't be so quick to judge.

I think there just needs to be a much more rigorous process in place to get a therapeutic exemption for these types of things. The Athletic Commissions need to have their own doctors testing the fighters, not letting the fighters bring in their own paid doctors. They also need to be monitored so there is no abuse involved. If you're taking TRT or steroids for medical reasons you should be constantly tested. Of course, all of that costs money and I'm sure they don't have nearly enough to do it.


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## TheNinja (Dec 10, 2008)

This has to stop Thier is no way Mir also has hypogonadism...This damn loophole is just wrong... It won't be long untill every 30+ year old fighter has a TUE...:thumbsdown:


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## Abrissbirne (Jul 4, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> Not really a surprise. It was speculated that Mir was using steroids when he put on like 25lbs of muscle in between the Carwin fights...the dude got huge. Everyone already knew he was roiding.
> 
> 
> MMA is pretty much a joke now.


I was made fun of on these forums when i said the EXACT SAME THING. Its true and a shame really....


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

Frank met the requirements, was within the levels, why the hell are some people compaining? It isn't an abuse, he's within the levels....what's cheating about that? Big fuss over nothing!


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## Abrissbirne (Jul 4, 2010)

LizaG said:


> Frank met the requirements, was within the levels, why the hell are some people compaining? It isn't an abuse, he's within the levels....what's cheating about that? Big fuss over nothing!


How can you possibly not be complaining? LOOK AT THE ******* GUYS WHO TAKE FUKING TRT!!! Do they look weak or like roided up athletes? Seriously open your eyes. The stupidity of people annoys me so hard. The allowed levels are 6:1 from a normal man btw.


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

So? The commission sets the guidelines...he met them! Don't blame the fighters, blame the commission and get them to change the levels if you don't like it!


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## Abrissbirne (Jul 4, 2010)

LizaG said:


> So? The commission sets the guidelines...he met them! Don't blame the fighters, blame the commission and get them to change the levels if you don't like it!


Guidelines are bullshit when you know when you will get tested. Just like every other sport, people are cycling their roids or what ever they take.
How many times did Lance armstrong get tested positive while he was active? OH NEVER.
Still he did something that is literally impossible for a human being. What happened a few years later? They found roids in his frozen blood samples.
Do the same with the fighter, let them do bloodsampled every month, once a TRT license is in question, test those samples will be tested.

Overeem got caught on a random drugtest, what a suprise...
He should have known better and stopped raiding after the Brock incident.


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## Sports_Nerd (Apr 23, 2012)

Ludinator said:


> So they took a TRT user of the main event (Overeem) and replaced him with another one (Mir)....... Ohhh so that's how thing work. What a joke.


I try to be civil in these discussions, I think inflammatory comments do nobody any good.

That said, this is just stupid. Seriously stupid. Ralph Wiggum stupid. Overeem's T/E levels were 14 times the average levels, and he tried to pretend it was because there was synthetic T in his anti-inflammatory medication (Not TRT as you stupidly claim.)

Mir, on the other hand, has not been tested with abnormal levels of testosterone as defined by the commission, and hasn't tried to bypass the commission's regulations with childish excuses.

Your comparison is idiotic.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

MikeHawk said:


> Almost every drug tested sport allows the use of steroids and TRT if you get a therapeutic exemption.


This isn't even true you damn loon.




Abrissbirne said:


> I was made fun of on these forums when i said the EXACT SAME THING. Its true and a shame really....


Not really, I think a lot of naive people were talking about how it was totally plausible for a guy to get that huge in a short amount of time, but there were quite a few people who realized(myself included) that Mir was juicing


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Maybe I should go see my doctor about TRT. You know, find out what the fuzz is all about.


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

If it was abuse then the commission would've chosen a lower required ratio.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

LizaG said:


> If it was abuse then the commission would've chosen a lower required ratio.


That same commission does not think ADHD is an actual medical condition.


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## MikeHawk (Sep 11, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> This isn't even true you damn loon.





> Contrary to what many people seem to think, most drug-tested sports do allow athletes to use anabolic steroids if they qualify for a therapeutic use exemption (TUE). The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) and Major League Baseball (MLB) both have procedures in place for athletes to request permission to use steroids when medically indicated.
> 
> The Independent Program Administrator of MLB’s Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program is responsible for reviewing an athlete’s medical records and determining whether the otherwise banned performance-enhancing drug is medically necessary.
> 
> ...


http://thinksteroids.com/news/jose-canseco-testosterone-replacement-therapy/


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

TheLyotoLegion said:


>


Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but most of the heavier weight classes and a lot of the lighter weights use some form of PED's for workout recovery.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

TheLyotoLegion said:


> Mir was within the allowed levels, Overeem wasn't.


Just at the time of the test. All they do to test "normal" is to time their testosterone shots around the drug test. That's why Dana White was so mad at Overeem, because it's so simple to avoid a positive test.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

The MLB = most sports? Good to know.



Btw....from 2009.

http://www.mmaforum.com/1073943-post31.html



> Kongo is a damn good striker.
> 
> FrANABOLIC look good as hell when he KTFO him like that. I'd pick Mir over a lot of people at the moment. The roids allowed him to mantain his speed.



And this thread the OP accused him.

http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/68277-some-people-might-shoot-me-down-but.html



> People are generally defensive of athletes. I was saying the sane thing inntge discussion thread. Many inside sources state that many fighters cycle, and sometimes are encouraged to do so. Mir, IMO is juicing undoubtedly. That's just an unnatural size gain in that short of a time. Gaining that much muscle is ridiculous enough, then doing this while also training MMA. His body shouldvr been destroyed, unless you are of course taking a muscle rehabilitator....aka roids.
> 
> All this steroids body stuff is nonsense as well. Clemens, Barnett, Gatlin, etc didn't have WWE bodies because they didn't bodybuild. They were just big as shit. And in Barnett's case, not even.


http://www.mmaforum.com/1067704-post19.html


My commentary on it was pretty much spot on. You saw a lot of that typical fingers in your ears, hands over eyes "LALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU" kind of defensiveness....some dismissing it outright as "pathetic"....yet it was quite obvious and well...true.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

mastodon2222 said:


> Just at the time of the test. All they do to test "normal" is to time their testosterone shots around the drug test. That's why Dana White was so mad at Overeem, because it's so simple to avoid a positive test.


That test was random so no one knew it was happening, unless the UFC devised some sort of scheme to get Overeem and only Overeem caught.


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## Ludinator (Mar 15, 2012)

Sports_Nerd said:


> I try to be civil in these discussions, I think inflammatory comments do nobody any good.
> 
> That said, this is just stupid. Seriously stupid. Ralph Wiggum stupid. Overeem's T/E levels were 14 times the average levels, and he tried to pretend it was because there was synthetic T in his anti-inflammatory medication (Not TRT as you stupidly claim.)
> 
> ...


This post is idiotic, Overeem was randomly drug tested when his levels were so high, Frank Mir how ever got his levels down just in time for fight night but who's to say he wernt training leading up to the fight with crazy levels higher than the reem's.


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

Innocent till proven guilty, lets flame Mir if he pisses hot, till then it's all personal opinion and speculation and no one can argue otherwise. Lets keep it civilized guys


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Oh, I GUARANTEE he was on freak superhuman levels while training. 

This is the same shit Nate Marquardt pulled....and he actually, amazingly enough got his suspension wiped out because he was able to prove his levels were trending down....which is so comical it's actually infuriating.



LizaG said:


> Innocent till proven guilty, lets flame Mir if he pisses hot, till then it's all personal opinion and speculation and no one can argue otherwise. Lets keep it civilized guys


No.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Maybe I should go see my doctor about TRT. You know, find out what the fuzz is all about.


I hear it's great. I know of two 40 year old people that started it, and can lift 100 lbs more. Which is why it should be kept far far away from competition sports.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

TheLyotoLegion said:


>


Can anyone name a top heavyweight who doesn't have at least one of the following signs of PED use?:

-overly muscular
-puffiness
-premature baldness
-back acne
-heavy brow
-oversized jaw

?


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Cain, Roy nelson, Mark Hunt, just to name a few.


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## TheNinja (Dec 10, 2008)

mastodon2222 said:


> Can anyone name a top heavyweight who doesn't have at least one of the following signs of PED use?:
> 
> -overly muscular
> -puffiness
> ...


All those symptoms made me think of Lebron James..LOL


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

If black was on that list, it would be a spitting image of Lebron.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

box said:


> I hear it's great. I know of two 40 year old people that started it, and can lift 100 lbs more. Which is why it should be kept far far away from competition sports.


TRT simply redistributes any livelihood you'll have at older ages and gives it you immediately. 

Take TRT at 40 and become 30...when you become 60 you are actually 80 and can barely climb a flight of steps.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

TheNinja said:


> All those symptoms made me think of Lebron James..LOL


I didn't see choking on that list.....

:trollface:


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

TheNinja said:


> All those symptoms made me think of Lebron James..LOL


None of them did for me. LeBron isn't going bald....he just has a receding hairline...but then again, so do Jaime Foxx, Wayne Brady, Ne-Yo and a myriad of other black celebrities....and at least three of that group isn't taking steroids.

He's not particularly puffy...although Dwyane Wade is...

I've never seen his back so it'd be news to me if he had back acne.

He's certainly "overly muscular"...but he's also freakishly large. He's actually 15lbs less than Mir and is 6'8. 

The jaw and the brow are unrelated to steroids and more related to genetics and/or HGH usage...


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

Roflcopter said:


> TRT simply redistributes any livelihood you'll have at older ages and gives it you immediately.
> 
> Take TRT at 40 and become 30...when you become 60 you are actually 80 and can barely climb a flight of steps.


Although this is an extremely oversimplified and misconstrued statement, I generally agree with the overall sentiment of it.

The body is resistant to change whether it be losing weight, gaining weight, etc. Same can be said at a cellular level. It is not natural to be supplementing your body with androgens whether they are synthetic or natural testosterone, fact remains the same, that it is not natural to your body. Hormones are the chemical messengers in our body and the negative side effects on the cellular machinery within the body is largely unknown. Additionally, when injecting your body with foreign androgens, you decrease the production of your own natural testosterone which has various side effects including decreased spermatogenesis. Who knows what other signal transduction pathways these unnatural hormones are causing. Surely they cannot be helping DNA replication machinery. 

In my opinion TRT is literally crippling cells in the long term and steadily increasing the aging process due to stress on cellular machinery. It should be banned because it is a performance enhancer, but more importantly, in my mind, it should be banned to protect fighters from decreasing the quality of life they will have when they are older. 

It's not an moral decision in sports we are dealing with here, it's an ethical decision for life. 

Just because it is prescribed by physicians does not mean it is safe. Unfortunately the billion dollar pharmaceutical companies largely determine what is safe and unsafe for human use. Conflict of interest? I think so.


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## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

LizaG said:


> Frank met the requirements, was within the levels, why the hell are some people compaining? It isn't an abuse, he's within the levels....what's cheating about that? Big fuss over nothing!


Because they're complete idiots. I don't even really like Frank and I don't care if he's on TRT as long as he's within levels any time they test him.


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

MagiK11 said:


> Because they're complete idiots. I don't even really like Frank and I don't care if he's on TRT as long as he's within levels any time they test him.


Perfectly worded


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

I'm not even against steroids among professional athletes. I just want it to be the same rules for everyone. If Frank tested within the limits thats fine. JDS could have too and I could give 2 shits less.

These guys are paid to perform. To ask someone who does this for a living to not take supplements that drastically increase their performance is almost laughable. Of course some of them are going to do it regularly. Then you let the NSAC allow people to do it within the rules and people still demonize the athletes? How about demonizing NSAC instead?


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> Not really a surprise. It was speculated that Mir was using steroids when he put on like 25lbs of muscle in between the Carwin fights...the dude got huge. Everyone already knew he was roiding.
> 
> 
> MMA is pretty much a joke now.


Lmao... roiding???

He used TRT within the recommended levels. The reason he put on 25 pounds is because he WORKED OUT. Iv put on 20 pounds in a month before. And im not a big guy.


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## Ludinator (Mar 15, 2012)

SideWays222 said:


> Lmao... roiding???
> 
> He used TRT within the recommended levels. The reason he put on 25 pounds is because he WORKED OUT. Iv put on 20 pounds in a month before. And im not a big guy.


Hahaha funniest post ever. Ime a massive Mir fan but when he gained that weight it was down to 1 thing... Steroids. Mir didn't just put 20 pounds of fat on by eating crap, he had to do it properly and there's no way he got like that without help. And you putting 20 pounds on in a month I think is bull****, in a unhealthy way maybe, but you didn't put 20 pounds of muscle on in 1 month.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Ludinator said:


> Hahaha funniest post ever. Ime a massive Mir fan but when he gained that weight it was down to 1 thing... Steroids. Mir didn't just put 20 pounds of fat on by eating crap, he had to do it properly and there's no way he got like that without help. And you putting 20 pounds on in a month I think is bull****, in a unhealthy way maybe, but you didn't put 20 pounds of muscle on in 1 month.


He is a big guy and trained with a worlds strongest man. He could have easily put that weight on with Hard work and eating right and ofcourse off counter supplements.

Yeah you can call bullshit if you want but its the truth.

Until you have proof of him roiding u shud stfu. And him being within the levels of legal TRT is not proof.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

I see no problem with using TRT to get you within the acceptable levels. If two people have the same TRT levels neither has a unfair advantage.


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## Ludinator (Mar 15, 2012)

americanfighter said:


> I see no problem with using TRT to get you within the acceptable levels. If two people have the same TRT levels neither has a unfair advantage.



People are just not getting this at all. Yeah on fight night both will have similar levels but the month's leading upto the fight Mir could have crazy levels, so it's a massive disadvantage.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Ludinator said:


> People are just not getting this at all. Yeah on fight night both will have similar levels but the month's leading upto the fight Mir could have crazy levels, so it's a massive disadvantage.


As could have JDS or anyone else. So it is fair. The fact is, unless they randomly drug test every single fighter for months leading up to fights, this is the only way of keeping things fair.

Also, saw in a quote sideways claiming he gained 20 pounds in a month. Holy lulz. Yeah, the dork who posted his pictures and got so embarrassed by them he had to take them down and cry to mods about them being posted did something most body builders can't even do. Riiiiiiggghhhhtttt. Back in reality...


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## Ludinator (Mar 15, 2012)

PheelGoodInc said:


> As could have JDS or anyone else. So it is fair. The fact is, unless they randomly drug test every single fighter for months leading up to fights, this is the only way of keeping things fair.
> 
> Also, saw in a quote sideways claiming he gained 20 pounds in a month. Holy lulz. Yeah, the dork who posted his pictures and got so embarrassed by them he had to take them down and cry to mods about them being posted did something most body builders can't even do. Riiiiiiggghhhhtttt. Back in reality...


But how is it fair?? We don't know Jds is doing that, so until we do know then Mir had a big advantage.

Also don't get second part, posted pictures?


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Ludinator said:


> But how is it fair?? We don't know Jds is doing that, so until we do know then Mir had a big advantage.
> 
> Also don't get second part, posted pictures?


Because. JDS has the option of using trt as does anyone else so long as they test within the limits. It's 100% fair. If one person opts to not use trt than that's their choice. That's like saying someone decides not to take protein while one fighter does therefore it's not a fair fight. JDS obviously didn't need trt as he whooped Mir rather easily. I don't see how Mir had any advantage at all in that fight.

Don't worry about the second part. Before your time. It still probably gives sideways nightmares.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

What ever happened to growing old gracefully?


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## MikeHawk (Sep 11, 2009)

Soojooko said:


> What ever happened to growing old gracefully?


Science happened.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

MikeHawk said:


> Science happened.


Yep. :thumbsdown:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

It isn't fair at all that is ridiculous. Their testosterone is that level because they abused their bodies with excessive and repeated weight cuts and steroid abuse. What is fair is making them fight with the results of their own actions or not fight at all if they have made themselves so ill they can't fight without using steroids.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

osmium said:


> It isn't fair at all that is ridiculous. Their testosterone is that level because they abused their bodies with excessive and repeated weight cuts and steroid abuse. What is fair is making them fight with the results of their own actions or not fight at all if they have made themselves so ill they can't fight without using steroids.


If they fight within the rules then it's 100% fair. I agree with you. I really do. However your issue should be with the NSAC, not the fighters.


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

normal person 1 : 1 ratio
Allowed TRT 6 : 1 ratio 

unless fighters on TRT get regularly tested to make sure they're around 1 : 1 ratio i will also consider it legal ROIDING. If people are naturally at 1 : 1 you shouldn't have to go any higher then that on TRT and i bet my left ball that Sonnen, henderson, mir, reem and more get 6 : 1 from TRT.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

americanfighter said:


> I see no problem with using TRT to get you within the acceptable levels. If two people have the same TRT levels neither has a unfair advantage.


Well a 23 year old up and coming fighter having his record ruined by a 37 year old fighter (with the physical attributes of a 23 year old due to TRT) isn't unfair? Age is a part of life - some people need to deal with it and move along. Your body produces less and less testosterone as you grow older, and guess what, that's the same for everyone as well. No need for TRT to make things fair.

TRT only results in old guys being around longer, taking up spots that young, new exciting fighters could be fighting for.

BTW another reason for lack of testosterone is previous abuse, just saying.



Soojooko said:


> What ever happened to growing old gracefully?


I wonder that as well


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

screw you all, Hendo rules! ^^


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> As could have JDS or anyone else. So it is fair. The fact is, unless they randomly drug test every single fighter for months leading up to fights, this is the only way of keeping things fair.
> 
> Also, saw in a quote sideways claiming he gained 20 pounds in a month. Holy lulz. Yeah, the dork who posted his pictures and got so embarrassed by them he had to take them down and cry to mods about them being posted did something most body builders can't even do. Riiiiiiggghhhhtttt. Back in reality...


Haha okay bud.

First of all i was never emberassed by my pictures and still looked way better then any off you. I never took them down lmao, you need to quit making stuff up. Only time i said something to mods is when they messaged me and told me they were gonna ban me if i keep it up cuz you guys were crying about me. Oh and those pics were when i was 17-18 lmao. I got Mono lost bunch of weight and got mad skinny. Healed went back to the gym and put on a bit over 20 pounds actually in probably a few days less then a month.

So as usual you got your FACTS ALLLL WRONG. As you always do since you aint nothing but a bitter dumb cop who goes around trying to humiliate fathers like a punk. 

Now keep my name out your silly ass posts cuz your pathological lying is getting annoying. And you always brag about me being on ignore anyway lmao.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

Now why do you guys have to make a discussion about TRT use personal? Jesus Christ.

And don't give me the "He started it" treatment, makes anyone look at least 20 years younger.

Just stop it or the thread will be closed, which would be a shame as it is a very interesting subject that is very debatable.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Budhisten said:


> Now why do you guys have to make a discussion about TRT use personal? Jesus Christ.
> 
> And don't give me the "He started it" treatment, makes anyone look at least 20 years younger.
> 
> Just stop it or the thread will be closed, which would be a shame as it is a very interesting subject that is very debatable.


He's on ignore. Unless someone quotes him I can't see his posts. Don't worry.



FYI, I gained 50 pounds of muscle last month. True story.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Budhisten said:


> Now why do you guys have to make a discussion about TRT use personal? Jesus Christ.
> 
> And don't give me the "He started it" treatment, makes anyone look at least 20 years younger.
> 
> Just stop it or the thread will be closed, which would be a shame as it is a very interesting subject that is very debatable.


But Bud... He did start it. :wink01:


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> First of all i was never emberassed by my pictures and still looked way better then any off you.












(I just had to.. )


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

hellholming said:


> (I just had to.. )


Haha.


My English teacher made me play Zeus cause i was into myself. I didnt mind cuz i got to kiss this little hottie Natasia for the part. (It actually led to a friend with benefits scenario for a little while) I know her for a long time so that was kind of the icebreaker if you will.
And tbh playing zeus felt epic.

I guess one of his flaws was him thinking he was perfect.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

MagiK11 said:


> Because they're complete idiots. I don't even really like Frank and I don't care if he's on TRT as long as he's within levels any time they test him.


Yes, your own terrible, simplistic, and childish opinion is the gold standard on people's intelligence.

:laugh:



SideWays222 said:


> Lmao... roiding???
> 
> He used TRT within the recommended levels. The reason he put on 25 pounds is because he WORKED OUT. Iv put on 20 pounds in a month before. And im not a big guy.


Right, Mir puts on massive gains at the peak of his physical fitness and suddenly his testosterone is low.

Man, I wish I could be that naive.


The other idea that is quite laughable is the idea that I shouldn't be angry with fighters for circumventing the rules instead of bowing out gracefully...as if the latter doesn't ever happen. (see Hughes, Matt)


I supposed I shouldn't care about Soccer and basketball players diving/flopping either....it's within da rulez!

I will say, that it definitely gives credence to what kind of person someone is if their only standard of ethical behaviour is what is legal or not....


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

So now the argumen has switched to the could have been roiding up and have high-T before the test well that's true for anyone. As Ken Shamrock said about steroids "it's like going to the grocery" anyone can get it easy abuse it the lower their T-levels before their fight. There are other types of steroids than TTR. The only difference is that guys like hendo Chael and Mir are legally cleared to use it because of medical conditions.

Also consider the following when they are cleared by the doctor they are prescribed a dose it's not free reign on using as much as you want. To get extradoses they would have to get them illegally like everyone else who isn't cleared.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

osmium said:


> It isn't fair at all that is ridiculous. Their testosterone is that level because they abused their bodies with excessive and repeated weight cuts and steroid abuse. What is fair is making them fight with the results of their own actions or not fight at all if they have made themselves so ill they can't fight without using steroids.


There are many reasons for low-T and if I remember correctly I think Chael said something in his hearing about him having it even at a younger age. 

I am 23 and I have Low-T and have to take TRT (small dose though) because of the chemo and radiation therapies I went through in my cancer treatment.


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## Ludinator (Mar 15, 2012)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Because. JDS has the option of using trt as does anyone else so long as they test within the limits. It's 100% fair. If one person opts to not use trt than that's their choice. That's like saying someone decides not to take protein while one fighter does therefore it's not a fair fight. JDS obviously didn't need trt as he whooped Mir rather easily. I don't see how Mir had any advantage at all in that fight.
> 
> Don't worry about the second part. Before your time. It still probably gives sideways nightmares.





americanfighter said:


> There are many reasons for low-T and if I remember correctly I think Chael said something in his hearing about him having it even at a younger age.
> 
> I am 23 and I have Low-T and have to take TRT (small dose though) because of the chemo and radiation therapies I went through in my cancer treatment.



But Mir has never needed it in the past so why now?


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## Old school fan (Aug 24, 2011)

Budhisten said:


> Now why do you guys have to make a discussion about TRT use personal? Jesus Christ.
> 
> And don't give me the "He started it" treatment, makes anyone look at least 20 years younger.
> 
> Just stop it or the thread will be closed, which would be a shame as it is a very interesting subject that is very debatable.


Saw this on Sherdog some time ago, seems to fit here


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

americanfighter said:


> So now the argumen has switched to the could have been roiding up and have high-T before the test well that's true for anyone. As Ken Shamrock said about steroids "it's like going to the grocery" anyone can get it easy abuse it the lower their T-levels before their fight. There are other types of steroids than TTR. The only difference is that guys like hendo Chael and Mir are legally cleared to use it because of medical conditions.
> 
> Also consider the following when they are cleared by the doctor they are prescribed a dose it's not free reign on using as much as you want. To get extradoses they would have to get them illegally like everyone else who isn't cleared.


Tell that to Chael "16 to 1" Sonnen. All these doctors care about is money, you are naive if you think they can't bolster themselves with unnecessary dosage. The standard dosage as it is is laughably high...even Victor Conte has gone on record stating it.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

Roflcopter said:


> Tell that to Chael "16 to 1" Sonnen. All these doctors care about is money, you are naive if you think they can't bolster themselves with unnecessary dosage. The standard dosage as it is is laughably high...even Victor Conte has gone on record stating it.


The point is that you don't have to be cleared by TRT to get to that level The fact that they are cleared for TRT is irrelevant. People can get to those levels and get the drugs without being officially cleared by TRT. When cleared for TRT they would be assigned officially the dosage to get to the normal level the what the get after that is just like any othe persongetting an extra dose. So just because someone is not officially cleared for TRT doesnt mean he isn't taking large amounts of steroids.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

Ludinator said:


> But Mir has never needed it in the past so why now?


I don't know much at all about Mir's individual case and am only speaking in general about fighters getting cleared for TRT.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

LizaG said:


> So? The commission sets the guidelines...he met them! Don't blame the fighters, blame the commission and get them to change the levels if you don't like it!


Who is saying he cheated?

People are just laughing at how guys "need" TRT. They really probably don't. It is just a loophole.

Roids and PEDs aren't illegal in MMA. Not if you get a little stupid note from the Doc.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

americanfighter said:


> There are many reasons for low-T and if I remember correctly I think Chael said something in his hearing about him having it even at a younger age.
> 
> I am 23 and I have Low-T and have to take TRT (small dose though) because of the chemo and radiation therapies I went through in my cancer treatment.


Not sure of the exact numbers because I'm not sure who all takes TRT in MMA.

But I want to see a national average of people who need TRT.

Then I want to see a % of UFC that take TRT.

I bet the UFC % would be higher. 

Sort of sad when a guy like Anderson or Machida don't use TRT. But then big ass muscled up fighters like Reem and Mir need to take it. It is because TRT is needed after Roid use. 

Can't tell me big ass Reem has low testosterone. Or Mir has low testosterone. Yet Anderson....or basically all Brazilian fighters don't.


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

jonnyg4508 said:


> *Who is saying he cheated?*
> 
> People are just laughing at how guys "need" TRT. They really probably don't. It is just a loophole.
> 
> Roids and PEDs aren't illegal in MMA. Not if you get a little stupid note from the Doc.


Not necessarily yourself but a lot of people are treating Mir like a Roid-Junky, it isn't the same thing like others are suggesting.

But if more fighters try and exploit such a loophole then maybe making the threshold a bit tighter, they can discourage fighters relying/applying on TRT


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Not sure of the exact numbers because I'm not sure who all takes TRT in MMA.
> 
> But I want to see a national average of people who need TRT.
> 
> ...


I am just saying don't throw them all in the same bag and say the only reason for low t is a history of steroid. 

I am glad you brought up reem because back to my original point was reem "cleared for TRT" if not then that proves my argument that people who are not are not "cleared for TRT" are just as likely to use steroids as those "cleared for TRT." so because someone is diagnosed low T and cleared for TRT you should not be any more suspicious of them than others.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

americanfighter said:


> I am just saying don't throw them all in the same bag and say the only reason for low t is a history of steroid.
> 
> I am glad you brought up reem because back to my original point was reem "cleared for TRT" if not then that proves my argument that people who are not are not "cleared for TRT" are just as likely to use steroids as those "cleared for TRT." so because someone is diagnosed low T and cleared for TRT you should not be any more suspicious of them than others.


I'm not saying they are all on roids. A guy like Hendo at age 41 may very well need it. 

But Reem? Mir? 

I'm not saying...but then again I am saying. It is a fact that TRT therapy is often used to help the body deal with the roids it is given. So knowing that it just seems pretty weird that these 32 year old men who fight other huge powerful men actually need testosterone. 

After a huge workout of course you will have lower testosterone. Levels fluctuate. But I won't believe for one second that everyone who uses TRT actually needs it. All fighters could benefit from it I'm sure. Most abuse the system in my opinion. Not to get their levels up to norm...but to take mass quantities of it to benefit in training....and then their levels become normal by fight week.

Would these guys be taking TRT if they were not fighters with an edge to gain? Is their testosterone that low all the time where they really need it? Maybe a few do...but I would bet that a good % of them don't.


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## jhizzy (Feb 4, 2007)

Obviously I need to find a way to lower my testosterone so I can get ripped like these dudes.


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

umm.... Frank at UFC 100 is the leanest he has ever been...


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## DanTheJu (Mar 3, 2007)

Ludinator said:


> So they took a TRT user of the main event (Overeem) and replaced him with another one (Mir)....... Ohhh so that's how thing work. What a joke.


While I do not agree with a TUE for TRT, your facts as well as many others in this thread are skewed...

*OVEREEM DID NOT USE TRT.*

He was busted with an elevated T:E ratio and claimed it was because of an anti-inflammatory med his doc gave him that had steroids in it. 



Ludinator said:


> This post is idiotic, Overeem was randomly drug tested when his levels were so high, Frank Mir how ever got his levels down just in time for fight night but who's to say he wernt training leading up to the fight with crazy levels higher than the reem's.


Again, people who know nothing of the facts spouting off inaccuracies!

*Mir took 2 urine tests and 5 blood tests before the fight and all came back within levels*



Ludinator said:


> People are just not getting this at all. Yeah on fight night both will have similar levels but the month's leading upto the fight Mir could have crazy levels, so it's a massive disadvantage.


And that is where you are wrong, Mirs levels were consistently monitored, as are ALL that have a TUE for TRT. So if anything, his opponent could have the advantage of juicing up during training and dropping back down to normal levels for the fight.



PheelGoodInc said:


> Because. JDS has the option of using trt as does anyone else so long as they test within the limits. It's 100% fair. If one person opts to not use trt than that's their choice. That's like saying someone decides not to take protein while one fighter does therefore it's not a fair fight. JDS obviously didn't need trt as he whooped Mir rather easily. I don't see how Mir had any advantage at all in that fight.
> 
> Don't worry about the second part. Before your time. It still probably gives sideways nightmares.


Your logic is confusing... The fighters with TUE for TRT are not just randomly opting to use it. They have proven a need for it and have been medically cleared to use it. You cant just choose to use it and all will be well.



Toroian said:


> normal person 1 : 1 ratio
> Allowed TRT 6 : 1 ratio
> 
> unless fighters on TRT get regularly tested to make sure they're around 1 : 1 ratio i will also consider it legal ROIDING. If people are naturally at 1 : 1 you shouldn't have to go any higher then that on TRT and i bet my left ball that Sonnen, henderson, mir, reem and more get 6 : 1 from TRT.


Again, not true. The T:E ratio is not what is tested for when they take blood tests of those using TRT. They test total testosterone and it has to be in a normal range!


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

> Again, people who know nothing of the facts spouting off inaccuracies!
> 
> Mir took 2 urine tests and 5 blood tests before the fight and all came back within levels



And what were the dates for these tests?


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## DanTheJu (Mar 3, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> And what were the dates for these tests?


I was not there for the tests myself, so I dont know the dates, but Keith Kizer said they happened and that it was during training camp.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Oh, I suppose that awesomely vague information clears everything up!


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Gotta love how people love to talk so much sht without any proof of wrong doing. Typical online people bullsht.


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

I love how some people can only respond in insults or just being totally condescending!


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## spaulding91 (Sep 23, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> Oh, I suppose that awesomely vague information clears everything up!


Well Keith Kizer is the head of the commission soooooo yeah. 

Also, if you use TRT you are randomly tested by the commission and the UFC is going to start random testing so one can make the argument that they will be the most tested athletes in the organization.


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