# The Gracies On B.J. Penn



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Ralph and Renzo speak on BJ. "He's like teaching a snake"

And some other choice comments......






Thoughts......


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## Scarecrow (Mar 20, 2008)

Sounds like BJ has burned a few bridges in his past...


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

More gracie bullshit. Does anyone even care about this family anymore?


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## WestCoastPoutin (Feb 27, 2007)

Bazza89 said:


> More gracie bullshit. Does anyone even care about this family anymore?


Well, I dont really care that its the Gracies, but I do agree with them. If it were my family, I would feel the same way. 

I also really enjoyed the insult: "traitor [email protected]'". Its harsh and funny at the same time.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

WestCoastPoutin said:


> Well, I dont really care that its the Gracies, *but I do agree with them*. If it were my family, I would feel the same way.
> 
> I also really enjoyed the insult: "traitor [email protected]'". Its harsh and funny at the same time.


Why?

It's the fight game. just cos you trained with someone in the past doesn't mean you can't call them out in the future. It's not as if BJ was still training with Ralph when he fought other Gracies and it's not like he was disrespectful about it either.

This is just more crybaby gracie nonsense cos Penn beat them (when he was fighting at a higher weight), do you really think they'd be whining if they'd won those fights.

It's just Ralph throwing a little tantrum cos BJ showed that the gracies, for the most part, just don't really matter in MMA anymore now that people actually know WTF they're doing.


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

Bazza89 said:


> More gracie bullshit. Does anyone even care about this family anymore?


Thats pretty harsh considering the Gracie family helped create a big part of MMA as it is today.


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## WestCoastPoutin (Feb 27, 2007)

Bazza89 said:


> Why?
> 
> It's the fight game. just cos you trained with someone in the past doesn't mean you can't call them out in the future. It's not as if BJ was still training with Ralph when he fought other Gracies and it's not like he was disrespectful about it either.
> 
> ...


This seems to be more of a 'i hate the gracies' thing to you than a conversation about traitors. Like I said, I dont care that its the Gracies.
Perhaps we are having 2 completely different conversations and this will not conclude but I will explain my side anyways.

If I helped someone develop a business plan and then he decided to go and open a business in the city where my brother lives, it would bother me. I would think, there are tons of other cities out there where you can go and prove yourself, why use my brother as a stepping stone?
This is a better example for me because I do not own a gym or even train.
Yes, it may be my fault for trusting him etc. but I would still despise him.

That is why I agree with him being a 'traitor motherfucker'.


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## Jord -Jitsu (Nov 3, 2008)

It seems like the Gracies are just pissed cause BJ became successful after he left them and they didnt get a taste of his glory.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> Thats pretty harsh considering the Gracie family helped create a big part of MMA as it is today.


I don't think it's harsh at all. Yeah they had a big helping hand in starting MMA but they've also done nothing but bitch and moan and insist that fights involving them were fought under special rules ever since just cos they're in denial about the fact that MMA has passed them by.



WestCoastPoutin said:


> This seems to be more of a 'i hate the gracies' thing to you than a conversation about traitors. Like I said, I dont care that its the Gracies.
> Perhaps we are having 2 completely different conversations and this will not conclude but I will explain my side anyways.
> 
> If I helped someone develop a business plan and then he decided to go and open a business in the city where my brother lives, it would bother me. I would think, there are tons of other cities out there where you can go and prove yourself, why use my brother as a stepping stone?
> ...


Firstly I don't hate the gracies, I just hate the way they feel that they're still a force in MMA which they clearly aren't and the way that they expect special treatment when most of them haven't done anything for years.

And secondly, the comparison you made just doesn't translate to this situation at all. People fight against each other in MMA, that's just the way it is. Did Ralph expect BJ not to dare challenge anyone in his family ever just cos they'd trained together a few years before?

Like I said, he's just pissed off cos Penn showed just how ordinary most gracies are in MMA now that people know what BJJ is.

Calling him a traitor MFer and implying he should cut off his head is a bitch move but TBH, I've come to expect nothing less from them over the last few years.



Jord -Jitsu said:


> It seems like the Gracies are just pissed cause BJ became successful after he left them and they didnt get a taste of his glory.


^^^
This is what they're really upset about.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

The Gracie's are the self proclaimed heirs apparent to the BJJ thrown and basically think anyone who has ever been associated with them in the BJJ world should grovel and bow at there feet, the Gracie bull shit is pathetic and I hope in ten years they are complelty irrellevant to BJJ.


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

Bazza89 said:


> I don't think it's harsh at all. Yeah they had a big helping hand in starting MMA but they've also done nothing but bitch and moan and insist that fights involving them were fought under special rules ever since just cos they're in denial about *the fact that MMA has passed them by*.
> 
> Firstly I don't hate the gracies, I just hate the way *they feel that they're still a force in MMA* which they clearly aren't and the way that they expect special treatment when most of them haven't done anything for years.


MMA hasn't passed anyone by thats still young enough to fight. The Gracie family has plenty of young fighters, just because they aren't in the UFC doesn't mean they don't matter. So Royce got old, so does everyone else. So Rickson got old, you will too and so will however you think is "force" in MMA now. And when they haven't done anything for years are you going to talk garbage about them?

Besides all that they deserve the credit for bringing BJJ and the idea of MMA to America so we could completely commercialize the shit out of it.


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## CashKola (Jul 7, 2006)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> MMA hasn't passed anyone by thats still young enough to fight. The Gracie family has plenty of young fighters, just because they aren't in the UFC doesn't mean they don't matter. So Royce got old, so does everyone else. So Rickson got old, you will too and so will however you think is "force" in MMA now. And when they haven't done anything for years are you going to talk garbage about them?
> 
> Besides all that they deserve the credit for bringing BJJ and the idea of MMA to America so we could completely commercialize the shit out of it.


The Gracies do deserve credit for bringing BJJ and MMA to the states as you said, but the guys can get pretty ridiculous at times. Like how Rickson is so full of himself and his whole 500-0 record bullshit. Or how some of the Gracies claim that all you need in a fight is Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and the only reason they lose now is because there are time limits and such. Sorry Gracies but Jiu-Jitsu alone can't get you to the top anymore.

Now I don't know exactly what they are referring to with BJ calling out a Gracie, unless its about BJs fight with Renzo a while back, so I can't comment too much on him being a "traitor motherfucka". Although, I can see where Ralph is coming from.

I still respect the Gracies, but they need to get off their high horse and step back down to reality sometimes.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

How are the Gracie's not a force in MMA? If you were to take out the Gracies then BJJ would degrade on the scale of Karate and the like. Weither you like it or not Bazza, the Gracies mean more to MMA than a lot of things and they're still a force. They are the family that built MMA and produced one of the most effective martial arts in the modern world. They are some of the best teachers of this art and are still highly respected in the MMA community for this very reason.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

I have to agree that Gracie BJJ remains prominent in MMA. 

Even the Gracie black belt students are creating splashes and racking up vicories in respected orgs and ranked top 5 in the world.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> MMA hasn't passed anyone by thats still young enough to fight. The Gracie family has plenty of young fighters, just because they aren't in the UFC doesn't mean they don't matter. So Royce got old, so does everyone else. So Rickson got old, you will too and so will however you think is "force" in MMA now. And when they haven't done anything for years are you going to talk garbage about them?
> 
> Besides all that they deserve the credit for bringing BJJ and the idea of MMA to America so we could completely commercialize the shit out of it.


Royce wasn't even that good of a fighter in the first place though, he was just proficient in BJJ when nobody else knew WTF it was. He has poor standup, poor wrestling and his BJJ isn't even that good.

Yeah Rickson got old but he never fought anyone worth fighting and continued to talk shit whilst running away from any real challenges.

What young gracies are making a splash on MMA anywhere right now. Roger's doing okay but he seems more focused on pure grappling.

I'm only talking crap about them because they talk crap about everyone else and see to think that they're special and require "special rules" to be able to fight. Like somebody else said they still claim that they are only beaten because of time limits and judging etc, of course it's got nothing to do with the fact that they're all pretty mediocre MMArtists.




TraMaI said:


> How are the Gracie's not a force in MMA? If you were to take out the Gracies then BJJ would degrade on the scale of Karate and the like. Weither you like it or not Bazza, the Gracies mean more to MMA than a lot of things and they're still a force. They are the family that built MMA and produced one of the most effective martial arts in the modern world. They are some of the best teachers of this art and are still highly respected in the MMA community for this very reason.


No they're not still a force. I don't care how many people train in gyms with the name gracie, how many actual family members have achieved anything even notable in MMA recently.

So what if their family helped created BJJ and helped to start the UFC, that doesn't give them the right to go round trashing world class fighters just because nobody in that family has ever been a real world class MMArtist.

Oh and DanO, neg repping me for having an opinion is one thing, but at least leave your name instead of acting like a complete coward. It will be returned in kind.

Man this place has gone downhill.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

2 things:
1.)The Gracies don't own grappling 
2.)Nothing new from them. The BJJ community can be absolutely childish.



Bazza89 said:


> More gracie bullshit.


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

Bazza89 said:


> Royce wasn't even that good of a fighter in the first place though, he was just proficient in BJJ when nobody else knew WTF it was. He has poor standup, poor wrestling and his BJJ isn't even that good.
> 
> Yeah Rickson got old but he never fought anyone worth fighting and continued to talk shit whilst running away from any real challenges.
> 
> ...


Wow, you must be really accomplished to feel you can say these things. What have you givien to MMA lately? I ask this because your talking as much crap as the Gracies presumably do. The only difference is they have earned some right to do so.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

Wrong.

They make outlandish claims regarding their own abilities as fighters and feel that they have some divine right to be revered by the rest of the MMA community. All I've done there is state simple facts.

Are you really gonna argue that Royce or Rickson were legitimate MMArtists???


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

I'm not saying Penn is a saint, but the Gracie's track record of hating on guys outside their family and school that are successful is pretty long. It probably rots them that they can't stamp their name on Penn like a product, while he goes and gets his black belt under the Nova Unaio school.


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## FunkYou (Apr 22, 2007)

Don't you know Bazza that ytou aren't allowed to talk bad about the Gracies? Especially when they're bitching about BJ Penn the MMA Fan's pet hate figure.

Seriously what are the Gracie's complaining about? That someone they trained with went on to be really succesful and beat the people he trained with despite belonging in a much lower weight class? There has never been a a better than average MMArtist, although I will admit enjoying the occasional Renzo fight.

Just because they are resposible for bringing BJJ to the attention of the masses doesn't mean that people should ignore their pathetic whinging.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

Honestly, the most accomplished Gracie mma trainer right now is Ceaser. If BJ had stayed training with Ralph, he wouldn't have excelled as a fighter. Not getting the opportunity to work with Frank Shamrock, Team Quest, etc. Basically the opposite gym policy that Randy Couture has


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

I not saying that the Gracies in general don't talk there fair amount of junk. What I am saying is that after everything is said and done the Gracie family has contributed enough to this sport that the comments like "who even cares about the Gracie family anymore?" are disrepectful. I wouldn't consider anyone in this forum a contributer to MMA in the same way as the Gracies.
Royce is no more cocky than the younger fighters out there now. 
Its stupid to say that he wasn't that good. 
Its stupid to think MMA would be the same without his influence. I would love to see you disrespect him in person.

And I still didn't get an answer to my question Bazza, "What have you done in MMA that gives you the right to say anything about Royce Gracies fighting proficiency?":dunno:


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## FunkYou (Apr 22, 2007)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> I not saying that the Gracies in general don't talk there fair amount of junk. What I am saying is that after everything is said and done the Gracie family has contributed enough to this sport that the comments like "who even cares about the Gracie family anymore?" are disrepectful. I wouldn't consider anyone in this forum a contributer to MMA in the same way as the Gracies.
> Royce is no more cocky than the younger fighters out there now.
> *Its stupid to say that he wasn't that good.*
> Its stupid to think MMA would be the same without his influence. I would love to see you disrespect him in person.
> ...


Its not stupid its fact. His jitz was slow and clumsy. Hell he couldn't even keep Kimo in his guard without pulling on his hair.

Just because someone isn't an accomplished MMartist themselves it doesn't mean you can't jusge a fighter's ability. That is what every person on this board and others lke it does every day.

Just because the Gracie's did a lot to help launch MMA does not mean they are still relevant and deserve special treatment.


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

FunkYou said:


> Its not stupid its fact. His jitz was slow and clumsy. Hell he couldn't even keep Kimo in his guard without pulling on his hair.
> 
> Just because someone isn't an accomplished MMartist themselves it doesn't mean you can't jusge a fighter's ability. That is what every person on this board and others lke it does every day.
> 
> Just because the Gracie's did a lot to help launch MMA does not mean they are still relevant and deserve special treatment.


In the first UFC events no one knew BJJ except Royce, but Royce didn't know anything about their styles either.
Kimo had a little bit of a weight advantage, like almost a hundred lbs. Can you hold a man that weighs a hundred lbs more in your guard without a GI? I can't and neither can most of the world.
Was Royce beating on school girls in UFC 1, 2 and 3?
I guess Babe Ruth doesn't deserve any respect either cause he hasn't done anything lately and he wasn't half of the hitter that the roid kings of today are. Right?
This has nothing to do with current relevence and everything to do with respect for your beginings.
BJ didn't just learn BJJ from a book. And the Gracies aren't the only fighters to talk shit. As a matter of fact there are very few that don't.
Ask yourself this. What would MMA be like today without BJJ?
Where do think it came from? Do other styles pay respect to their creators? 
Thats the big issue with arm chair QBs...they don't have to know anything personally to critique the pro. :thumbsdown:


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## FunkYou (Apr 22, 2007)

So by your argument BJ was being disrespectful for beating the Gracies? 

I agree that without the gracies modern MMA would be almost unrecognisable but that doesn't mean they are or ever were actually any good. I am also aware that the Gracie's aren't the only fighters to talk smack. they are the only ones however who act like they are owed a favour. BJ trained with them for a little while and then went elsewhere got better and went back and beat up a couple. The Gracie's reaction to this: BJ is a traitor.

So you have never commented on a fighter's skills? Or are you only not allowed to do that when talking about a member of the Gracie family?


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## judodude (Mar 27, 2009)

Bazza89 said:


> More gracie bullshit. Does anyone even care about this family anymore?


Not really..

I personally won't care again until I see them getting into 1.5 hour long fights or wanting to fight on with a broken arm.

You can say a lot about the Gracie's but they sure as hell bring the heart in the ring.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> Its stupid to say that he wasn't that good.
> Its stupid to think MMA would be the same without his influence. I would love to see you disrespect him in person.


No it's stupid to believe that he was that good. His striking and wrestling have always been awful and his average BJJ was exposed when he fought people who actually knew what it was.

Yeah Royce didn't know much about striking or wrestling (which is evident when you look at how bad he is at both) but nobody even knew what BJJ was, there's the difference between the two. Not to mention most of the early UFC's were set up to favour BJJ by not putting many strong grapplers in the rest of the field.

And do you realise how ridiculous it sounds to say "I would love to see you disrespect him in person" when this whole thing was started by Ralph talking shit about BJ behind his back.



LV 2 H8 U said:


> And I still didn't get an answer to my question Bazza, "What have you done in MMA that gives you the right to say anything about Royce Gracies fighting proficiency?":dunno:


What gives me the right? Sorry, if you have to have done more than a fighter in MMA to comment or express your opinion regarding their skill set then I'm confused as to why we're all posting on an MMAForum in the first place. What's the point in being on here if you can't give your opinion about fighters? Or is it just when I'm talking about the holy gracie family?




judodude said:


> Not really..
> 
> I personally won't care again until I see them getting into 1.5 hour long fights or wanting to fight on with a broken arm.
> 
> You can say a lot about the Gracie's but they sure as hell bring the heart in the ring.


They also insisted on special rules that made that fight 1.5 hrs long. Just another example of the gracies believing that they're above anyone else.

Besides, I'm not questioning Royces heart or desire to compete, just his skill set which is ridiculously overrated IMO. Rickson's the one who comes to mind when questioning someones heart or willingness to test themself in the ring.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Bazza89 said:


> Royce wasn't even that good of a fighter in the first place though, he was just proficient in BJJ when nobody else knew WTF it was. He has poor standup, poor wrestling and his BJJ isn't even that good.
> 
> Yeah Rickson got old but he never fought anyone worth fighting and continued to talk shit whilst running away from any real challenges.
> 
> ...


They're as much of a force in MMA as Greg Jackson, Mark DellaGrate and Shawn Tompkins are. They train some of the most elite fighters in the ******* world dude and there's no way you can deny that. Two champions in the UFC learned their BJJ from a Gracie and arguably 2 of the top 5 p4p learned from them. It's extremely ignorant to say the Gracie's aren't a force.

EDIT: Also, bazza, I want to say that I'm respecting your opinion because you're entitled to it. I'm just reiterating mine.


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## MKick (Jan 14, 2008)

Kind of funny seeing this. While I like BJ Penn, and enjoy and respect the Gracies, they are all kind of a bitter bunch. So one bitter person talking about another bitter person. 

Interesting, but I wouldn't put much stock in any of it.


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## Where'stheCrow? (Nov 28, 2007)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> I guess Babe Ruth doesn't deserve any respect either cause he hasn't done anything lately and he wasn't half of the hitter that the roid kings of today are. Right?
> This has nothing to do with current relevence and everything to do with respect for your beginings.


I don't get the reference to Babe Ruth at all. Half the hitter of today's roid kings? You do realize only Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds surpassed him on the all-time homerun list(Aaron did it the right way, Bonds not so much). Not to mention he was a pitcher during his early seasons and the season was shorter. Baseball is a terrible comparison to MMA, and Ruth was even worse when compared to the Gracies. 

The Gracies deserve respect, but they feel entitled to a level of respect that is undeserving of them or anyone else. This is MMA, not BJJ. Yes they helped bring the style to the public, but since then they haven't done anything to deserve being the 1st family of MMA which they act like. They are good teachers of BJJ to the fighters of today, but that alone does not make a mixed martial artist. They bitch and make excuses entirely too much and I wish they would chill out. BJ has accomplished more than them (also beat Rodrigo and Renzo) and they are just bitter.


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## haymaker85 (Aug 10, 2007)

How the hell do you people figure that BJ Penn would be half the fighter he is now without the jiu jitsu that he himself learned from a gracie.He trained years with them but most of you people just talk without knowing shit about anything.And no BJ has not accomplished more than them.


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## Where'stheCrow? (Nov 28, 2007)

I don't know how good BJ would be without the training and it's impossible to predict. On the other hand, BJ has accomplished more in MMA than any Gracie has. He has held titles and beaten Gracies that were trained to be MMA fighters, not just bjj competitors. As a whole, the Gracies have contributed greatly to MMA imo, but BJ has gone further fighting and is a better MMA fighter.

Unfortunately haymaker85, you are definately one of the retards you talked about in your post because you added absolutely nothing to the thread.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

haymaker85 said:


> How the hell do you people figure that BJ Penn would be half the fighter he is now without the jiu jitsu that he himself learned from a gracie.He trained years with them but most of you retards just talk without knowing shit about anything.And no BJ has not accomplished more than them.


Err, BJ's accomplished way more in MMA than any gracie and more in straight BJJ than a lot of them aswell.

Next time, before you come into a thread calling people retards, make sure you know what the hell you're talking about first cos you just make yourself look like an idiot.


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## ZeroPRIDE (Apr 12, 2006)

watch the insults guys.


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

Bazza89 said:


> Err, BJ's accomplished way more in MMA than any gracie and more in straight BJJ than a lot of them aswell.


Your right, where did he learn BJJ?


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> Your right, where did he learn BJJ?


What's that got to do with anything? 

My point is that his accomplishments in MMA have far surpassed any member of the gracie family and he's also achieved more in BJJ than the majority of them so why should he have to bow down to them like they expect him to.

I can't understand why they still feel everybody in the MMA world owes them a debt of gratitude just cos of what someone in their family did and I find it even harder to understand how people like you believe their BS and continue to perpetuate this gracie myth.


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

Bazza89 said:


> What's that got to do with anything?
> 
> My point is that his accomplishments in MMA have far surpassed any member of the gracie family and he's also achieved more in BJJ than the majority of them so why should he have to bow down to them like they expect him to.
> 
> I can't understand why they still feel everybody in the MMA world owes them a debt of gratitude just cos of what someone in their family did and I find it even harder to understand how people like you believe their BS and continue to perpetuate this gracie myth.


Honoring where you came from has everything to do with respect. And BJ has none. Thats why they don't like him. I find it hard to believe that people like you believe your own BS.
You must have first hand knowledge of the whole Gracie family right? Do you know any of them personally? Have you ever met or trained with any of them? I'm guessing thats a No. So with your media fed knowledge of the Gracie family I can see how you feel justified in passing judgment :sarcastic12:


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Paying respect to where you came from, or people and/or organizations who helped you, isn't terribly hard to do either.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> You must have first hand knowledge of the whole Gracie family right? Do you know any of them personally? Have you ever met or trained with any of them? I'm guessing thats a No. So with your media fed knowledge of the Gracie family I can see how you feel justified in passing judgment :sarcastic12:


You do realise how stupid it is to try and make this point when you're doing exactly the same thing about them and BJ don't you.:sarcastic12:


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

Bazza89 said:


> You do realize how stupid it is to try and make this point when you're doing exactly the same thing about them and BJ don't you.:sarcastic12:


I'm not passing judgment on BJ, thats between them. I am saying that they have a right to be upset with BJ. BJ and the Gracies have a personal history. You however, as far as you've let on, do not have any personal history with either. 

You are the one that is calling out "who even cares about the Gracie family anymore" and "Royce never really was that good". And your justifying it by saying that the whole Gracie family deserves to be slandered because they haven't done anything lately. Thats a bunch of convoluted BS.
Oh, and there is no myth. Royce really did win three UFC championships that kicked off MMA in America. Not too long afterward BJ decided to learn from the people that developed BJJ. It's ok though I realize that the UK is still a little behind the curve. (this is where the arguement moves to the USA vs. UK TUF season)


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Gentlemanly debate, you mean.


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

swpthleg said:


> Gentlemanly debate, you mean.


Of course. There has been no name calling or neg reps. Bazza and I are perfect gentlemen....so far.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Hokay so I can go off to point sparring then?


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

swpthleg said:


> Hokay so I can go off to point sparring then?


We will stay in different threads until you get back. MOM :laugh:


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## chopstickz (Dec 26, 2008)

considering the fact that both BJ and Gracies are F***King crying babies. i honestly dont give a damn.

*not taking any credit away from Gracie's legacy on BJJ and MMA


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