# ***OFFICIAL*** Mauricio "Shogun" Rua vs. Chael Sonnen Thread



## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

*Light Heavyweight bout: 205 pounds*
*Main Event - Five round fight*


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## Big_Charm (Jan 7, 2011)

Very tough fight for either guy, as they have big strengths to counter weaknesses. It's not a question of whether or not Sonnen will take Rua down, he will. It's just a matter of time before Shogun can land a nice flurry and TKO Sonnen with knees and vicious GnP.

I think we see a stoppage in the 4th (if this is indeed a 5 rounder) by Shogun. I just hope Rua doesn't let Sonnen smother him and gas him out before the championship rounds (which could be a high probability).

:thumb03:


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

I don't see how Sonnen loses unless he has a complete brainfart, which isn't out of the question.

Sonnen wins a UD with one or two 10-8 rounds. I think Shogun gasses badly.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Shogun better bring his gas tank with him or he will go down. Either way he will be dangerous in that first round. But the way Shogun has been up and down and how suffocating Chael is, this is a tough one for Shogun.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

Sonnen does have the aggression and wrestling to give Shogun problems, but I think he's really lacking in physical strength and firepower in this fight. He can disrupt Shogun, but I don't think he can steamroll him like he's done to others.

Chael might be wise to actually go EASY in the first round or two, and turn it up as the fight goes on. Shogun is a beast everywhere when he's fresh and if Sonnen goes running at him hoping for a scrappy exchange and takedown, he might get knocked out or reversed surprisingly quickly.

Understandable that alot of people may pick Sonnen, but I don't think he can bully a well trained Shogun and I think the 5 rounds actually benefits Rua. Chael can score some points wrestling but overall is outgunned. At this point in their careers, most important thing is that its a great fight.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Ari said:


> I don't see how Sonnen loses unless he has a complete brainfart, which isn't out of the question.
> 
> Sonnen wins a UD with one or two 10-8 rounds. I think Shogun gasses badly.


Why is Sonnen regarded as such an elite guy? He has proven nothing at 205. He put up ZERO resistance vs. Bones and was easily beat at his own game. He lost bad to Anderson the 2nd time. He arguably lost to Bisping, at the very least Bisping gave him all he could handle. 

So what a near victory over a hurt Silva and a win over Brian Stann who is now retired means he is among the elite?

He may win, but to say you don't know how he loses??? Sonnen has had one foot out the door for a while now. He spends more time on the set of UFC Tonight than he does in the gym. 

Never understood where Sonnen became an elite fighter? He is good no doubt. But proven nothing what so ever at 205 and is not getting any younger.



HitOrGetHit said:


> Shogun better bring his gas tank with him or he will go down. Either way he will be dangerous in that first round. But the way Shogun has been up and down and how suffocating Chael is, this is a tough one for Shogun.


Shogun's lack of gas tank is so damn over-exaggerated. Listen, I'm not saying it is a strength of his. But come on. People act like he is Tito Ortiz. Who did he gas against? Bones? Who wouldn't gas vs. a extremely large, one of teh best in the world, wrestler? Hendo? Who wouldn't gas when taking that much damage? Several H-Bombs. He still went 5 rounds and pulled enough gas out at the end to over-come all those shots he took. GSP would be worn out too if he took those shots. Where else? The Vera fight where he found a finish in the 4th? Gustaf? Lets get real. Most of the 205 division wouldn't have the gas to go 5 rounds. He has gassed to guys who really have beat him up or are just that much better (Gustaf, Bones). Sonnen was as or more tired as Shogun has been in the 5th round vs. Anderson the first time. Anderson taking 500 "punches" out-lasted a guy who was on top the whole time. Chael gassed on top. Other than that he has been in a bunch of 3 round fights and sort of gasses in those. 

Why do people think Sonnen is this cardio machine (where is the proof) and Shogun can't even go 3 rounds? Sonnen isn't going to hurt Shogun as much as Hendo, Gustaf, Bones or hell even Vera did. Taking shots has something to do with gassing....

Totally exaggerated.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Why is Sonnen regarded as such an elite guy? He has proven nothing at 205. He put up ZERO resistance vs. Bones and was easily beat at his own game. He lost bad to Anderson the 2nd time. He arguably lost to Bisping, at the very least Bisping gave him all he could handle.
> 
> So what a near victory over a hurt Silva and a win over Brian Stann who is now retired means he is among the elite?
> 
> ...


I don't think very highly of Sonnen at 205 either, trust me. But I recognize that he will probably beat Shogun simply because he is such a nightmare matchup for him. Sonnen is a damn good wrestler and Shogun may quite possibly have one of the worst wrestling games not only in the UFC LHW division, but in the entire organization and no I am not exaggerating. You say that Shogun's bad cardio is exaggerated but it's really pretty terrible. He was a walking punching bag against Gustafsson after the first three minutes and gassed almost immediately once he tied up with Brandon Vera. I don't think Sonnen is a cardio god but it's been shown that his cardio is still much better than Shogun's.

I don't see Sonnen as elite at 205 either and I question where his status stands right now in the UFC MW division even, but he's facing a Shogun that's a shell of his former self complete with bad knees, bad cardio, terrible defensive wrestling and tremendously overrated jiu jitsu.


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## GDPofDRB (Apr 18, 2013)

Ari said:


> Shogun may quite possibly have one of the worst wrestling games not only in the UFC LHW division, but in the entire organization and no I am not exaggerating.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Ari said:


> I don't think very highly of Sonnen at 205 either, trust me. But I recognize that he will probably beat Shogun simply because he is such a nightmare matchup for him. Sonnen is a damn good wrestler and Shogun may quite possibly have one of the worst wrestling games not only in the UFC LHW division, but in the entire organization and no I am not exaggerating. You say that Shogun's bad cardio is exaggerated but it's really pretty terrible. He was a walking punching bag against Gustafsson after the first three minutes and gassed almost immediately once he tied up with Brandon Vera. I don't think Sonnen is a cardio god but it's been shown that his cardio is still much better than Shogun's.
> 
> I don't see Sonnen as elite at 205 either and I question where his status stands right now in the UFC MW division even, but he's facing a Shogun that's a shell of his former self complete with bad knees, bad cardio, terrible defensive wrestling and tremendously overrated jiu jitsu.


Shogun has a decent all around game IMO. That includes a decent clinch, I would think that's where this fight will be won or lost and I give Shogun a edge because he can end a fight from the clinch.

Of coarse Sonnen can win, I only slightly favor Shogun. I just believe Shogun should be somewhat favored until Sonnen beats him if he does.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Shogun's lack of gas tank is so damn over-exaggerated. Listen, I'm not saying it is a strength of his. But come on. People act like he is Tito Ortiz. Who did he gas against? Bones? Who wouldn't gas vs. a extremely large, one of teh best in the world, wrestler? Hendo? Who wouldn't gas when taking that much damage? Several H-Bombs. He still went 5 rounds and pulled enough gas out at the end to over-come all those shots he took. GSP would be worn out too if he took those shots. Where else? The Vera fight where he found a finish in the 4th? Gustaf? Lets get real. Most of the 205 division wouldn't have the gas to go 5 rounds. He has gassed to guys who really have beat him up or are just that much better (Gustaf, Bones). Sonnen was as or more tired as Shogun has been in the 5th round vs. Anderson the first time. Anderson taking 500 "punches" out-lasted a guy who was on top the whole time. Chael gassed on top. Other than that he has been in a bunch of 3 round fights and sort of gasses in those.
> 
> Why do people think Sonnen is this cardio machine (where is the proof) and Shogun can't even go 3 rounds? Sonnen isn't going to hurt Shogun as much as Hendo, Gustaf, Bones or hell even Vera did. Taking shots has something to do with gassing....
> 
> Totally exaggerated.


Shoguns lack of a gas tank isn't even remotely close to being an exaggeration. He gassed against Bones, he gassed horribly against Vera. Sure he finished the fight, but that doesn't somehow negate the fact that he looked like he had never seen a treadmill before. He gassed against Coleman who was older than dirt. He slowed down against Hendo, he didn't look particularly well against Gus or in the first Forrest Griffin fight. He has had one fight in the UFC that went the distance where he looked good and that was the first Machida fight. Chuck and the second Griffin fight didn't make it out of round 1. 

Shogun's level of cardio has been horrid since leaving Pride.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

GDPofDRB said:


>


Prove me wrong.


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## GDPofDRB (Apr 18, 2013)

lol yeah right you said it, back it up.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Sonnen pretty much defeated Anderson in their first fight, and to even the odds, Anderson had to cheat to win in their second fight. As much as I like Shogun, he's going down.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

GDPofDRB said:


> lol yeah right you said it, back it up.


His takedown defense rate in the UFC is something like 25%
The only people that come to mind that could rival a number that abysmal are Carlos Condit and Josh Neer. 
I'm not trying to diminish anything that Shogun has done in his career, I'm just stating a simple fact, his wrestling sucks and it always has. His ground game is pretty overrated too. Who has he subbed off his back. Randleman? Get the **** out.

Now it's your turn


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## GDPofDRB (Apr 18, 2013)

Ari said:


> His takedown defense rate in the UFC is something like 15%
> The only people that come to mind that could rival a number that abysmal are Carlos Condit and Josh Neer.
> I'm not trying to diminish anything that Shogun has done in his career, I'm just stating a simple fact, his wrestling sucks and it always has. His ground game is pretty overrated too. Who has he subbed off his back. Randleman? Get the **** out.
> 
> Now it's your turn


hmm nope, I still think that is the most ridiculous post I've seen in my short time here, but way to pull some numbers out of your ass in an attempt to prove your point that Shogun is definitely the worst wrestler in the UFC, strong argument. But it's funny you think, "Shogun is the worst wrestler in the UFC, no exaggeration" needs to be dis proven. Thanks.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

GDPofDRB said:


> hmm nope, I still think that is the most ridiculous post I've seen in my short time here, but way to pull some numbers out of your ass in an attempt to prove your point that Shogun is definitely the worst wrestler in the UFC, strong argument. But it's funny you think, "Shogun is the worst wrestler in the UFC, no exaggeration" needs to be dis proven. Thanks.


:sarcastic12:

Shogun has a 34% takedown defense rate for his entire career. For an "elite" fighter, that is pretty low and very indicative of how bad his wrestling actually is. Shogun has been taken down 24 times in ten UFC fights and in his entire UFC career, there have been 34 attempted takedowns on Shogun. That's really, really low. Especially for an "elite" fighter.

Are you too scared to offer up an actual rebuttal?

And here are my sources:
http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Mauricio-Rua
http://hosteddb.fightmetric.com/fights/index/271

EDIT: Just realized I typed 15% instead of 25%, which is what I originally estimated.
The math indicates that Shogun's TDD in the UFC is roughly 29%. Pretty damn bad.


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## GDPofDRB (Apr 18, 2013)

Ari said:


> :sarcastic12:
> 
> Shogun has a 34% takedown defense rate for his entire career. For an "elite" fighter, that is pretty low and very indicative of how bad his wrestling actually is. Shogun has been taken down 24 times in ten UFC fights and in his entire UFC career, there have been 34 attempted takedowns on Shogun. That's really, really low. Especially for an "elite" fighter.
> 
> ...


Takedown defense is not the best, and....


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Good knee Shogun was taken down at will by over the hill 45yo Coleman.
I see no problemas for TRT Sonnen to take bad knee Shogun down but i also can't see how Sonnen will avoid getting punched in the face


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

AmdM said:


> Good knee Shogun was taken down at will by over the hill 45yo Coleman.
> I see no problemas for TRT Sonnen to take bad knee Shogun down but i also can't see how Sonnen will avoid getting punched in the face


You mean the second fight? Shogun's knees were ****ed before that fight sir. He had already had two knee surgeries by the second Coleman fight.

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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Life B Ez said:


> You mean the second fight? Shogun's knees were ****ed before that fight sir. He had already had two knee surgeries by the second Coleman fight.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Not so sure about that. His knees seemed pretty fine in the 1st Machida fight.
I'm almost sure he became bad knee Shogun after Machida 2...

Edit - wiki, as good as that is when it comes to sources fide dignity, backs me on the timeline for the 2nd surgery:



> Due to the controversy of the decision, of his UFC 104 loss to Machida, a rematch was immediately announced and took place at UFC 113 on May 8, 2010 in Montreal, Canada. Rua won via knockout at 3:35 of round 1, after dropping Machida with a right and following up with punches on the ground, and was awarded the UFC Light Heavyweight Championship becoming the second fighter in MMA History to win a Pride Grand Prix Championship and a UFC Championship. Following the victory, Rua underwent surgery in June to repair a knee injured during the bout against Machida. Then, it was later revealed that Machida had entered their rematch with an injury to his left hand.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

GDPofDRB said:


> Takedown defense is not the best, and....


Of course it's not the best, it's ******* terrible. I've seen very few fighters at Shogun's level whose takedown defense is as unbelieveably bad as his. Sonnen will expose this, I guarantee you.

When has Shogun showed "good" wrestling? Please enlighten me.

It doesn't take much to see that Shogun's wrestling is pretty abysmal, that his gas tank sucks, and that he's nothing compared to what he used to be. I'd go as far to say that Shogun couldn't beat anyone in the top ten anymore.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Ari said:


> Of course it's not the best, it's ******* terrible. I've seen very few fighters at Shogun's level whose takedown defense is as unbelieveably bad as his. Sonnen will expose this, I guarantee you.
> 
> When has Shogun showed "good" wrestling? Please enlighten me.
> 
> It doesn't take much to see that Shogun's wrestling is pretty abysmal, that his gas tank sucks, and that he's nothing compared to what he used to be. I'd go as far to say that Shogun couldn't beat anyone in the top ten anymore.


There's no point of arguing with a delusional fool living in the past and probably thinks shogun is top 5. Fact is Shogun WAS great, but knee surgeries which probably largely contributed to his UFC fights mainly all having garbage cardio making him ripe for the picking.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Shogun has very solid trip takedowns, many times right to full mount. Therefor he cannot be the worst wrestler in all of the UFC.

Who has Sonnen taken down at 205 ever in his career? What good wrestlers has he beat at 205? Chael is now 36 and bulky. His shot isn't going to be what it once was, he may have to clinch first to get Shogun to the cage. Clinch is not good for him. Also, when did Chael automatically get better at BJJ? He has to have some of the worst sub defense of any top 10 fighter in the UFC. Hunt is about the only one that comes to mind that may be worse. Shogun isn't known for his triangle, but he is certainly capable of subbing the very subable Chael Sonnen. Or maybe even reversing/sweeping him a couple times. Plus Chael is mentally weak in big fights. Whether this is a big fight or not I don't know.

I find it odd that people are going up and down about Shogun's weaknesses. But don't bat an eye at Chael's. 

Chael does have a good chin. I hope we can see Shogun sweep or Thai Clinch a few times. Hopefully this can be a good fight and we can get off the little streak of lack luster events/fights besides the Mighty Mouse fight.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Sonnen pretty much defeated Anderson in their first fight, and to even the odds, Anderson had to cheat to win in their second fight.


Sonnen pretty much tapped if I remember correctly. And Chael +T Sonnen cheated first also.


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## GDPofDRB (Apr 18, 2013)

AmdM said:


> Not so sure about that. His knees seemed pretty fine in the 1st Machida fight.
> I'm almost sure he became bad knee Shogun after Machida 2...
> 
> Edit - wiki, as good as that is when it comes to sources fide dignity, backs me on the timeline for the 2nd surgery:


Shogun hurt his knee a month before the 1st griffin fight then shredded it fully during the fight. He had knee surgery afterwards but then busted it again training and had a 2nd surgery before getting to the coleman fight. Not the worst but not exactly ideal, it seemed to get better each fight after though, until the aftermath of the second Machida fight.

Ari, you can neg me as much as you need, PM me as much as you like, ignore what I reply to you as much as it takes, have as much of name calling fit as much as you want, sorry, it's not changing anything.


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## JWP (Jun 4, 2007)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Shogun has very solid trip takedowns, many times right to full mount. Therefor he cannot be the worst wrestler in all of the UFC.
> 
> Who has Sonnen taken down at 205 ever in his career? What good wrestlers has he beat at 205? Chael is now 36 and bulky. His shot isn't going to be what it once was, he may have to clinch first to get Shogun to the cage. Clinch is not good for him. Also, when did Chael automatically get better at BJJ? He has to have some of the worst sub defense of any top 10 fighter in the UFC. Hunt is about the only one that comes to mind that may be worse. Shogun isn't known for his triangle, but he is certainly capable of subbing the very subable Chael Sonnen. Or maybe even reversing/sweeping him a couple times. Plus Chael is mentally weak in big fights. Whether this is a big fight or not I don't know.
> 
> ...



good post, i think shogun is guna hurt chael


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Nope he won't this isn't 2005 shogun or at least 2009 shogun, this is 2013 always gasses and gets hit shogun


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

This really is a choose your own adventure type fight. 

Basically you are betting on Shogun's knees vs Chael's head.

I don't know if anyone watched the latest Best of Pride but Shogun had both an omoplata attempt on Nog and a head/arm choke on Overeem. He's got submissions, but he never seems to commit to them (likely for fear of gassing). Chael's also taken two brutal beatings at the hands of Jones/Silva and he's old with testosterone issues so his chin is really going to be a question mark for this fight.

On the other hand you never know what Shogun is going to show up or if/when he'll quit in the fight. Sonnen has changed camps and is now under the tutelage of Mark Munoz and we saw the shape Munoz was in in his last fight. Sonnen could go five rounds or look for a choke finish, he has to be motivated knowing that his path to a MW title fight is only one or two(easy) fights away.

We could see a FOTY, 
we could see either guy retired...brutally, 
we could see either guy give a performance that could lead to their cut from the UFC
You could see a submission, TKO or decision, you could even see a draw...

I know who I'm betting on but I'm pumped for this one. I think every fight leading up to this one will be short one rounders and feel like exhibition fights and this one will deliver.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Why is Sonnen regarded as such an elite guy? He has proven nothing at 205. He put up ZERO resistance vs. Bones and was easily beat at his own game. He lost bad to Anderson the 2nd time. He arguably lost to Bisping, at the very least Bisping gave him all he could handle.
> 
> So what a near victory over a hurt Silva and a win over Brian Stann who is now retired means he is among the elite?
> 
> ...


Ran through Marquardt back when Nate was number 2 in the division and dismantled Yushin. Those are his best wins. Not to mention Anderson cheated in the second fight. Chael was cutting too much weight to make 185 and thats why he looked 'bad' against Bisping even though he won all three rounds pretty clearly.

Chael grinds out Shogun for a lopsided decision or late finish. Shogun hasn't looked good in years.

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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

^ ahahah the chances of Sonnen finishing Shogun are less than 1%
and i'm being optimistic :laugh:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

you'd be surprised about how even the toughest men are turned into shells due to bad cardio, shogun already tapped to jon jones due to a bad beatdown and no cardio, and forrest subbed him because of his bad gas tank


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Hendo beated the crap out of Shogun for 3 rds and Shogun survived even being badly gassed. Jones beat him like if he was a sandbag for 3 rds until he finally gave up.
Comparing Jones and Sonnen GNP is delusional. 
Sonnen will NEVER finish Shogun, i recognize he may get a UD from being on top landing fake punches, but those punches don't cause damage. As himself advised his fighters on TUF, the plan is to "keep touching him", not beat the crap out of your opponent while gassing yourself doing so...


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Shogun isn't looking to win on points anyway. So all this talk is sort of for nothing. If he wins, it will be within 3 rounds.


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Picking Chael.


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

Shogun via tko.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

hellholming said:


> Shogun via tko.


Amen to that.


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## rebonecrusher (Nov 21, 2011)

I'm thinking Sonnen is able to stay on top of Shogun and control him for a lot of the fight earning him a 5 round decision. Interesting match up though its hard to picture these two fighting.


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

UFC_OWNS said:


> you'd be surprised about how even the toughest men are turned into shells due to bad cardio, *shogun already tapped to jon jones due to a bad beatdown* and no cardio, and forrest subbed him because of his bad gas tank


Chael Sonnen is no Jon Jones. Also, I'm pretty sure Shogun lasted longer then Chael in his fight with Jon Jones. While were on the subject Shogun did destroy Forrest in a rematch with a vengeance.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Not sure what to expect shogun doesn't have great td defense but a size and strength advantage might help him keep it on the feet a little more and a little more might be all he needs. I expect the fight to either end early and violently by Jo for Shogun or Sonnen cruises to a decision. Don't think shogun doesn't know the longer it goes the more it favors Chael look for him to really put it all in to his punches and kicks. 


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...Daniel Cormier hit the nail on the head with "A healthy Shogun is a handful for anybody to deal with". That's true but 2 things are certain: Chael will not run out of gas and Shogun will not be able to stop Sonnen's top notch power double. Chael is smart enough not to go into brawl mode with Shogun. Big mistake. Rua is gonna get dumped on his ass quite a few times and Sonnen is a complete beast in the top position. Unless Shogun can pull of a sub or catch Chael badly and finish him, I see Sonnen getting the UD...


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BrutalKO said:


> Chael is smart enough not to go into brawl mode with Shogun.


Sonnen? Not brawl?? Really???

Sonnen loves to brawl. He gets in your face and pushes you backwards. He loves all that close dirty boxing shit. We all know Sonnens bread and butter is his top control... but lets not underestimate his tenacious striking style.


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## Buakaw_GSP (Jan 9, 2011)

If shogun does not finish this in the first round it's going to be a battle where sonnen is going to win by decision. Seems to be the way shoguns fight usually go in the ufc.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

Soojooko said:


> Sonnen? Not brawl?? Really???
> 
> Sonnen loves to brawl. He gets in your face and pushes you backwards. He loves all that close dirty boxing shit. We all know Sonnens bread and butter is his top control... but lets not underestimate his tenacious striking style.


...Yeah---that is true as well but lets make no mistake who has some of the nastiest KO's in MMA under their belt and Shogun has a much higher % of finishing Sonnen on the feet. I'm certain Sonnen will eat the harder shots on the feet but he won't keep it there. That seems almost certain...


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

This really reminds me of a classic uFC match of style vs. style. Sure, these guys are way more well rounded that the early days, but if this fight stays standing I think Sonnen is for a world of hurt, and if it goes to the ground, I can't see Shogun's BJJ being strong enough to catch Sonnen. Would love to see Shogun take it but I think Sonnen takes the second two rounds after Rua slows down.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Ape City said:


> but if this fight stays standing I think Sonnen is for a world of hurt


I'm really not sure. We all saw how it affected Andersons ability to strike. Sonnen comes forward from moment one. Not something we see often from UFC fighters nowadays. Lots of fighters claim they are going to go for it - before proceeding to fight cautiously. Chaels most redeeming feature is forward brawling style. No fear. Straight in there. I honestly think Chael will beat Rua both standing and on the mat.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

I think if Chael tries to come forward against Shogun with strikes it is going to be bad for Chael. Shogun is the opposite of Anderson. Anderson is a counter striker and Shogun loves to rush forward with a flurry. I still think Chael takes it but he can't fight like he did vs Anderson.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Soojooko said:


> I'm really not sure. We all saw how it affected Andersons ability to strike. Sonnen comes forward from moment one. Not something we see often from UFC fighters nowadays. Lots of fighters claim they are going to go for it - before proceeding to fight cautiously. Chaels most redeeming feature is forward brawling style. No fear. Straight in there. I honestly think Chael will beat Rua both standing and on the mat.


If Sonnen is anything resembling a world class fighter he stops Fauxgun and sends him into retirement.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Shogun will gas after 3 minutes i predict


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

I at least give him round 1.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> Shogun will gas after 3 minutes i predict


This. The first time they are clinched on the fence or on the ground for longer than thirty seconds shogun will come away gassed. And in a Chael Sonnen fight that happens quite often and quite quickly.

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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

War Shogun!!!


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

Shogun walks out to some interesting music.

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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

No Armin again? I am disappoint.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Please Shogun, give that arse a new face!!!! 

War Shogun!!!!!


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

Sonnen via Spinning Backfist!


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## OHKO (Jul 11, 2010)

Lame walk-out music.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Sugar-Free_LizaG said:


> Sonnen via Spinning Backfist!


this heh war sonnen


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

War Chael!


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Fauxgun is the favourite?

What a terrible joke.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Well...here we go.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

Last thing I EVER expected to see was Shogun on top of Sonnen, haha.

Chael's back to doing what I expected.
Just sucks that one of the only Brazilian fighters I like is probably going to lose.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Womp womp Fauxgun.

Go home to your wife and kid.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Damn Son!!!


----------



## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

the GOAT with his 4th win in a row


----------



## rallyman (Mar 15, 2010)

wow

didn't see a round one sub 

just wow


----------



## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Well that's the last way I thought Sonnen would or could win. Crazy.


----------



## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

Holy Shit


----------



## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

Bring on wandy..


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I would have never thought Chael would end it in the first never mid he pulled guard 


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----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS WOOOOOOOOOOOO, nice guillotine and someone owes me a sig and some creds


----------



## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

I did NOT see that coming. 

just lost my creds and sig to UFC owns.


----------



## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

Bahahahaha!
Damn I feel bad but Shogun is done.


----------



## AJClark (Sep 19, 2010)

RD1 finish for Sonnen... heehee


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Well... Goodnight folks.....


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

There was never any doubt.

Run while you still can, Vitor.


----------



## Abrissbirne (Jul 4, 2010)

Just wow. Seriously i never expected this. i knew chael would win this by decision, but tapping him like that impresses me. Seriously that was cool.


----------



## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

Never mess with a gangster. 

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----------



## Hellboy (Mar 15, 2008)

Wanderlei will die. :thumbsup:


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

MagiK11 said:


> I did NOT see that coming.
> 
> just lost my creds and sig to UFC owns.


You bet on Fauxgun? :laugh:


----------



## BWoods (Apr 8, 2007)

Never would have expected that to happen. Is it an indication of how far Shogun has fallen or how good Chael is?


----------



## OHKO (Jul 11, 2010)

We were spared from watching Shogun gas. Hail Sonnen!


----------



## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

Roflcopter said:


> You bet on Fauxgun? :laugh:


I did lol


----------



## Shoegazer (Jun 23, 2007)

Very impressive, Shogun got schooled. This was a fun one for all the folks who think Chael is overrated.


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

BWoods said:


> Never would have expected that to happen. Is it an indication of *how far Shogun has fallen* or how good Chael is?


Ding ding, we have a winner!


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Okay. Sonnen via superior gas tank, seen that coming. Pulling guard to a guillotine....no....just no. Wow.

Also that is proof high fight IQ is important, Sonnen knew even if he didn't get it there was little time left in the round so why not, as opposed to a guy like uriah hall who is by far more talented but just doesn't have the game between his ears.

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----------



## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

WHERE YOU AT VANDERLEI?!

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----------



## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

Overeem and Shogun = irrelevant in their respective divisions.


----------



## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

LOL here's more Sonnen gold


----------



## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Yah not a good match up. Wrestlers has always been his kryptonite. Of course nobody really expected that type of outcome. 

What a night of unexpected results. 

Yes, Wanderlei will accept.


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

card of the year. nice chael. very nice.


----------



## jaycalgary (Jun 19, 2008)

WHat did he just say to Rogan? Something about a middle aged comedian?


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Not a Chael fan but that interview was awesome!


----------



## OHKO (Jul 11, 2010)

Gotta love Sonnen


----------



## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

Chael is the man.


----------



## Abrissbirne (Jul 4, 2010)

I will bet my ******* house on Chael vs Wanderlei


----------



## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> Womp womp Fauxgun.
> 
> Go home to your wife and kid.


This. I don't even get excited for Shogun fights anymore. His training regimen is doing curls with cans of beer and slices of pizza while taking a stroll on the beach. 

I didn't expect the sub I thought Chael would just hit him a bunch of times and he would give up like he did against Forrest and Bones.


----------



## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

Dammit, now will be hearing about this for weeks.


----------



## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

haha chael is gold!!!


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Wand deserves the next ass kicking, then rogerio and finally vitor


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

omg he dedicates his win to cancer. then advertises fox sports 1. what a politician.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

BWoods said:


> Never would have expected that to happen. Is it an indication of how far Shogun has fallen or how good Chael is?


If the fight went further and Shogun gassed again then it would have been a pretty good representation of how far he has fallen but that could have happened to any version of Shogun.



osmium said:


> This. I don't even get excited for Shogun fights anymore. His training regimen is doing curls with cans of beer and slices of pizza while taking a stroll on the beach.
> 
> I didn't expect the sub I thought Chael would just hit him a bunch of times and* he would give up like he did against Forrest and Bones*.


Well this is dumb as shit, get anyone in there to try and take the punishment Jones put on Shogun and they would have got knockout out or quit even sooner.


----------



## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Damn, I am so sad Shogun lost, but I take my hat to Sonnen for that was a real nice performance and plus: he did not lowered the level at Shogun during the prefight.


----------



## Black_S15 (Jul 14, 2010)

War sonnen. 

Glad to see the gangster back in the win column. His only losses recently coming to no1 and 2 p4p fighters is not bad. 

A smart man indeed, another big pay day for him against wandy indeed


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

osmium said:


> This. I don't even get excited for Shogun fights anymore. His training regimen is doing curls with cans of beer and slices of pizza while taking a stroll on the beach.
> 
> I didn't expect the sub I thought Chael would just hit him a bunch of times and he would give up like he did against Forrest and Bones.


The guy shouldn't even be considered a professional athlete anymore.

He literally doesn't train because of how bad his knee is...sad story and all but please stop wasting our time and money and go home to your beautiful family.

He hasn't been hungry since his kid was born anyway....nothing like the guy 4 years ago who wouldn't bat an eyelash if faced with a contract to fight Anderson Silva or anyone else.


Sub didn't really surprise me....honestly. Didn't "expect it" but certainly didn't rule it out....

It's not hard for a semi-world class fighter to beat a guy who doesn't train in a variety of ways.


----------



## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

UFC_OWNS said:


> Wand deserves the next ass kicking, then rogerio and finally vitor


Creds sent, send me the sig whenever.


----------



## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Can the Shogun hype finally die now?


----------



## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

I can not wait for the staredown between the two. Wand at 205 is a different beast. This is a very good fight for Wand.

I can see Chael taking Wand down for four rounds, but Wand going for wild knees and strikes in a mad scramble in the 5th. Question is if he can finish. Chael would be the smart bet, but I gotta roll with The Axe Murderer. He thrives when he's pissed off.


----------



## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Ape City said:


> omg he dedicates his win to cancer. then advertises fox sports 1. what a politician.


Guaranteed that gave Dana a hard on.


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Mauricio Rua is the MMA equivalent of Wilfred Benitez.


----------



## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Guy Incognito said:


> Well this is dumb as shit, get anyone in there to try and take the punishment Jones put on Shogun and they would have got knockout out or quit even sooner.


Anyone could get in there and fight as well as Shogun did against him. He got beaten up like that because he doesn't train. I don't have to respect the "efforts" of a guy just showing up for a huge paycheck. 

Think about who he has actually done something good against in the UFC it is all guys who were way past it or Lyoto who barely even engages.


----------



## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

I knew Sonnen would win, I was just praying for a quick fight. Sonnen more that met my expectations. Shogun just really doesn't appear to be taking it seriously anymore. He will always have a solid chance against strikers, but in the wrestler heavy UFC he just has kept using the bad knee excuse to explain his complete lack of TDD.

On a side note, I miss his soccer stomps. Those things were the very definition of brutal.


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> Mauricio Rua is the MMA equivalent of Wilfred Benitez.


And Chael Sonnen is Mitt Romney. But he can stil kick my ass...


----------



## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

Shogun needs to take a year off, fly to Germany and get that stem cell treatment Dana White and Kobe Bryant got, then pound down massive doses of HGH. Come back with new knees.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

No_Mercy said:


> I can not wait for the staredown between the two. Wand at 205 is a different beast. This is a very good fight for Wand.
> 
> I can see Chael taking Wand down for four rounds, but Wand going for wild knees and strikes in a mad scramble in the 5th. Question is if he can finish. Chael would be the smart bet, but I gotta roll with The Axe Murderer. He thrives when he's pissed off.


I don't think Wand stands a chance if they fight. Wand is about as relevant as Shogun is these days.


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## OHKO (Jul 11, 2010)

Vitor Belfort ‏@vitorbelfort 10m
@sonnench let's fight 
Why u are asking for wand , u have to fight me.
Lets do it @danawhite @lorenzofertitta
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More


Vitor Belfort ‏@vitorbelfort 13m
@sonnench don't run from me.
Why are u asking for wand?
Let's fight.


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

There will be plenty of time for Wand, Vitor, and Anderson.

Chael Does Brazil. Coming soon to an Octagon near you.


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

The American Gangster does it again!! 

I remember when Chael had horrible BJJ defense and the thought of him submitting anyone was funny. Now he submitted Shogun who is considered to be very good at BJJ himself. How things change. Ofcourse im sure people will say he still has horrible BJJ Defense. But i think Chael is smart enough to fix his major glaring weakness. 


Sit down Wanderlei... dont let Sonnen humiliate you. You will never be able to live with yourself.

And shut your mouth Vitor. Quit turning down fights offered to you you *****. Maybe you are running from Lyoto??


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Being a black belt in jiu jitsu, and from the country where it was invented.

Must really hurt being subbed by a grapple retarded barbarian who never met a triangle choke they didn't like.

In before, "lol chael learn how to get out of triangle".


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## towwffc (Jan 1, 2008)

Wanderlei is on the backend of his career, probably won't fight for a title again, and is one of the most entertaining strikers in mma history.

I have nothing against Chael but I just don't want to see the same thing happen to Wanderlei that just happened to Shogun. Maybe without the sub, which will lead to 5 rounds of him on top.

His wrestling is just too good for these strikers who rarely if ever show they have any wrestling skills. Henderson will stand and trade, Chael most likely will not.


----------



## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...As expected Shogun didn't have an inch to breathe and spent most the fight on his back getting mauled cause Chael wanted no part of the stand up. Sonnen jumping guard for that Guillotine was pretty risky but well timed. I will always be a Shogun fan win or lose. He's put on some of the greatest fights ever. Where he goes from here dunno. I just hope he stays around the UFC a while longer. I think Rua still has some juice left, he just ran into a wrestling freight train...


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

420atalon said:


> I don't think Wand stands a chance if they fight. Wand is about as relevant as Shogun is these days.


As stated Chael is the smart bet, but there's already bad blood so the fight has to happen. 

Chael beats Wandy's henchman now it's time for them to step into the Octagon. We all know how this fight is most likely going to go. Wand doesn't quit though and has a much stronger chin at 205. So he's going to weather the storm on the ground and keep throwing wild loopy shots and knees til he catches Chael. It's going to be entertaining. 

I just hope it's main event status so they get five rounds of non stop action.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Very impressive victory by Sonnen. Shogun's TDD isn't that great but he's still a very solid grappler and can generally get back to his feet and compose himself. He couldn't do any of that tonight though and the fact that Sonnen finished it off with a sub was a victorious cherry on the top.

I'm down for Sonnen vs. Wandy, that fight needs to happen before one of them retire, IMO.


----------



## towwffc (Jan 1, 2008)

I'd much rather see Vitor vs Chael. Vitor is also calling Chael out and that fight would be much more beneficial for Chael if he wins. It's a fight that will actually mean something in the division and Vitor will (should) actually make it competitive and not get completely mauled on the ground like Shogun did and like Wandy probably would. In my opinion.


----------



## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

Wandy has been losing to guys who go toe to toe with him and are primarily strikes because he doesn't give shit about defense. 

He won't need to worry about Sonnen's power that much so it's pretty much about the grappling.

I think Wandy's bottom game is undderated but also not very well tested. I though he did well in the Bisping fight when he was on his back, but Bisping is not Sonnen.

Sonnen is stylistic favourite but Wandy just needs one Beserker raid to finish. He has a totally different mentality than Shogun these days. He's still a maniac in the octagon.


----------



## OHKO (Jul 11, 2010)

Lyoto Machida ‏@lyotomachidafw 8m
Since @vitorbelfort hasn't accepted our fight,I am sure that @danawhite can match me against @sonnench

Everybody wants a piece of the American Gangster.


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

see this is what they all do, they all say they want chael and then try to call him out when he picks one of the 5 who wants him.


----------



## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

This is funny. Very funny! Looks like Chael already picked Wandy though.

Machida should win pretty easily. They should allow Chael and Vitor TRT exemptions...then we're going to see some fireworks...haha.


----------



## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

No_Mercy said:


> This is funny. Very funny! Looks like Chael already picked Wandy though.
> 
> Machida should win pretty easily. They should allow Chael and Vitor TRT exemptions...then we're going to see some fireworks...haha.


:laugh:

But I think Chael would put a stamp ":bye02:" right on Wandy's forehead. I like me some Axe Murderer but he would get taken down and beat up, in my opinion.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

WHy not Machida vs. Sonnen???


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

MagiK11 said:


> :laugh:
> 
> But I think Chael would put a stamp ":bye02:" right on Wandy's forehead. I like me some Axe Murderer but he would get taken down and beat up, in my opinion.


I'd pick Sonnen but Wand has much better TDD and cardio then Shogun.


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> WHy not Machida vs. Sonnen???


Because vitor,wandy,lil nog, and everyone wants the fight. He can only pick one


----------



## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

Guy Incognito said:


> I'd pick Sonnen but Wand has much better TDD and cardio then Shogun.


Good point, and there is always the crazy wild haymakers Wandy throws. So regardless who wins, this is a fight i'd love to see.


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> WHy not Machida vs. Sonnen???


Because I'm kinda tired of watching Machida backpedal and cast spells while a guy chases him around the cage. The only way I'm watching another Machida fight is if they put him on that tiny ass WEC cage.

Sonnen would beat wand too. Probably not as bad as shogun but he'd still win cleanly at 205 or 185.

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----------



## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

That Shogun performance just brings to my mind how easy was to Jon Jones to get his LHW belt.


----------



## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

Phil Davis just called out Sonnen. I think it's safe to say that will never happen. It order of likeliness I think it goes

1. Belfort
2. Machida
3. Lil Nog
4. Davis

I didn't add Wandy to the list because he's terrified of Sonnen and I doubt that he'll suddenly have a change of heart.


----------



## AJClark (Sep 19, 2010)

AlphaDawg said:


> Phil Davis just called out Sonnen. I think it's safe to say that will never happen. .


Rashad wrestle-f*cked Davis so easily he doesn't pose a threat to Chael.


----------



## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

lol @ ppl underestimating Chael.

Shogun isn't that easy to beat.

Chael just made it look easy.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Trix said:


> lol @ ppl underestimating Chael.
> 
> Shogun isn't that easy to beat.
> 
> Chael just made it look easy.


Shogun beat Machida twice (you know what I mean), lost to Jones (who hasn't?), beat Forrest extremely easily (as someone of his caliber should), lost an extremely tough fight against Hendo while putting on one of the best fights I ever seen, beat Vera, and lost to Gus, an up and coming guy who is running through many and is fighting for the title.

No, Shogun has not looked "amazing" and he doesn't have the best gas tank out there, but he's fighting the very best guys in the division and I agree, it's not easy to beat Shogun, and the fact that Sonnen manhandled him from start to finish and then subs him in one round is impressive and should be treated as a great win for his career and shows that he's still at the top of his game. 

He'll never be the best in the world, but he's a top contender at both LHW or MW and a dangerous fight for anyone not named Jones/Anderson (and even then gave Anderson a tough fight).


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Trix said:


> lol @ ppl underestimating Chael.
> 
> Shogun isn't that easy to beat.
> 
> Chael just made it look easy.





M.C said:


> Shogun beat Machida twice (you know what I mean), lost to Jones (who hasn't?), beat Forrest extremely easily (as someone of his caliber should), lost an extremely tough fight against Hendo while putting on one of the best fights I ever seen, beat Vera, and lost to Gus, an up and coming guy who is running through many and is fighting for the title.
> 
> No, Shogun has not looked "amazing" and he doesn't have the best gas tank out there, but he's fighting the very best guys in the division and I agree, it's not easy to beat Shogun, and the fact that Sonnen manhandled him from start to finish and then subs him in one round is impressive and should be treated as a great win for his career and shows that he's still at the top of his game.
> 
> He'll never be the best in the world, but he's a top contender at both LHW or MW and a dangerous fight for anyone not named Jones/Anderson (and even then gave Anderson a tough fight).


Yeah Seriously.

Alexander Gustafsson is considered to be a top guy and one of the top up and comers in the division. He has 15 wins (7-1 in the UFC) and 1 loss and out of those 15 wins 9 are by KO/TKO 3 are by submission and 3 are by decision. Shogun fought him to a decision. If Shogun was easy to beat he would have lost by KO/TKO in the first or second round which most of Alexanders wins come by except the Shogun and Thiago fights which was round 3. 

Give Chael some credit where credit is due.


----------



## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

Chael Vs Davis make it happen


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Stun Gun said:


> Chael Vs Davis make it happen


No, davis can make anything boring


----------



## Andrus (Oct 18, 2011)

I was quite sure that Shogun would take this one and then I saw the fight...


----------



## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

As much as a fan I am, he simply does not do well against wrestlers. It's been like this since the Pride days. He always gets taken down. His weak knees could be a reason and his BJJ first mindset. Expected a UD loss, but certainly not a submission. The Reem on the other hand I fully expected to win and he almost did. He should have picked his shots a little bit better. He was so close in ending it.


----------



## Nomale (Apr 22, 2007)

Some people here describe it like Rua got "mauled" by Sonnen on the ground. No, he got mauled by Bones. If this was mauling what do you call that? This was a pretty general top control and gnp. Rua was losing the round but that was it. I was preparing for the second round to see if he could keep it standing and get some damage done when Sonnen locked in the choke. Hard to see as I'm a fan of Rua but good work by Sonnen.


----------



## Swp (Jan 2, 2010)

People forget that Sononen its the one of the best fighters in ufc just cuz he lost to The 2 BEST FIGHTERS IN THE WORLD ...


----------



## Proud German (Sep 28, 2012)

Beautiful, beautiful fight. I salivated while watching this. This was Sonnen at his best, Rua did not have a chance! Erstaunlichen Sieg!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

AlphaDawg said:


> Phil Davis just called out Sonnen. I think it's safe to say that will never happen. It order of likeliness I think it goes
> 
> 1. Belfort
> 2. Machida
> ...


Lol at someone thinking Wand is scared os Sonnen.
I don't think Wand is afraid of anyone in this world, m8 :thumbsup:


----------



## Swp (Jan 2, 2010)

AmdM said:


> Lol at someone thinking Wand is scared os Sonnen.
> I don't think Wand is afraid of anyone in this world, m8 :thumbsup:


I'm not a wanderlei fan ... but cmon guys lets be serious ... Why the f should he be scared or something .. he would never fight for the belt again anyway ...


----------



## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

No MMA fighter is terrified or scared of another man. They may fear the lostt but that's another story.


----------



## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

Never thought he'd beat Shogun. Hats off.


----------



## The Best Around (Oct 18, 2011)

I bet on Chael to win because I thought he would win in late rounds or decison. Who saw that coming? Well done.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Not a Chael fan, but congrats to him. I like that he saw an opening and went for it. I said as soon as he dropped that he wouldn't drop for a G-Tine to his back if he didn't have it. I bet he trained that a bunch, as Shogun would think the last thing he would do is drop to his back. Well executed.


----------



## TheNinja (Dec 10, 2008)

Wow... Great fight by Chael:thumbsup: I was really impressed. 

I hope he goes back to 185lbs though. The guy is a beast at that weight class and I feel he can beat anywhere their.

Chael finally told the truth during the UFC-PRE fight conference about his weight. He said he cuts 30 lbs to make 185, but only 10Lbs to make 205. 

Chael is just too small for 205 to compete for a title. I don't think he can hang with Big guys like Phil Davis, Glover, Jones, Cormier in the wrestling. That's why I love seeing him at 185.


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

AJClark said:


> Rashad wrestle-f*cked Davis so easily he doesn't pose a threat to Chael.


No....

Rashad used his speed and mobility to stay on the outside and defend Davis' takedowns. That and way better scrambling.

Evans mostly forced Davis into a long range striking battle and caught his kicks and took him down a few times.

That was probably the last time Rashad looked good in a fight.


----------



## cookiefritas (Jun 17, 2011)

Impressive fight. Chael looked more solid in this fight, you can tell he put on a little more muscle and is now ready to make another run at 205. He was just tossing shogun around like a little kid. He didn't look in his typical great shape against Jones .


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

TheNinja said:


> I hope he goes back to 185lbs though. The guy is a beast at that weight class and I feel he can beat anywhere their.


Don't agree. Sure Sonnen has a better chance at beating whoever is champ at 185 over ever beating Bones. But other than that? 

The man is like 36 and not getting younger. That weight cut was hard for him last few there and he looked iffy vs. Bisping. 

He should just not cut that weight and save his cardio. Tons more fun fights at 205. Wandy and Vitor seem to fight at 205 now. Machida is at 205. Phil, Rashad, Bader all solid fights.


----------



## sucrets (Jul 8, 2007)

chael is still a mediocre fighter. Don't get all excited fanboys. Once they put a solid fighter in front of him he will curl up like a baby like he did with Anderson.


----------



## steantera (Sep 7, 2011)

sucrets said:


> chael is still a mediocre fighter. Don't get all excited fanboys. Once they put a solid fighter in front of him he will curl up like a baby like he did with Anderson.


Anderson solid fighter? Ok.......


----------



## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

I would laugh so hard if he drops to 185 and beats Weidman.

There's two Chaels. WWE version in the Octagon and the competent commentator. 

Congratz...he's made himself into a ppv draw with a sleu of challengers.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

That right there is how much better a fighter Chael Sonnen is then Dan fecking old c*unt forward plodding zombie gums Henderson.

To the people who say Sonnen is mediocre... get a fecking dictionary and pick a more suitable word.


----------



## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Soojooko said:


> That right there is how much better a fighter Chael Sonnen is then Dan fecking old c*unt forward plodding zombie gums Henderson.
> 
> To the people who say Sonnen is mediocre... get a fecking dictionary and pick a more suitable word.


The MOTM has chimed in. Where ya been! 

I'd like to hear your comments on the other fights. Do so now , I need a laugh.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Sonnen is mediocre, he just beat a fighter who is a shadow of his former self and on his way to retirement.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Sonnen is mediocre, he just beat a fighter who is a shadow of his former self and on his way to retirement.


Ok. Let me put it this way. How many UFC LHWs could do to Rua what Sonnen did to him on Saturday? Right... now get a dictionary and look up "mediocre". Have a good read of the description. Thanks.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> Ok. Let me put it this way. How many UFC LHWs could do to Rua what Sonnen did to him on Saturday? Right... now get a dictionary and look up "mediocre". Have a good read of the description. Thanks.


Read my post over and let it sink in before you run off with this Sonnen has returned hype junk. He will lose to top fighters at 205 or 185 like he always has.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Read my post over and let it sink in before you run off with this Sonnen has returned hype junk. He will lose to top fighters at 205 or 185 like he always has.


Just answer the god damn question instead of skirting...

I'll repeat it since I dont want you to waste valuable time scrolling your browser: How many LHWs can do to the current day Shogun "husk" Rua what Sonnen did to him on Saturday night?


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Gustaf must be something less than mediocre. He couldn't even finish Shogun. And my God, Machida must be the worst fighter out there.


Don't feed the idiot trolls. I doubt they even know what mediocre means.


----------



## tomjones (Mar 18, 2007)

Big win for sonnen, the belfort fight has too happen.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Gustaf must be something less than mediocre. He couldn't even finish Shogun. And my God, Machida must be the worst fighter out there.
> 
> 
> Don't feed the idiot trolls. I doubt they even know what mediocre means.


The most mediocre thing that happened on saturday night was Rua getting subbed... like he always does.:sarcastic06:


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> Just answer the god damn question instead of skirting...
> 
> I'll repeat it since I dont want you to waste valuable time scrolling your browser: How many LHWs can do to the current day Shogun "husk" Rua what Sonnen did to him on Saturday night?


I'm not sure why you think anyone needs to lower their standards to answer any questions from a condescending poster.


----------



## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Read my post over and let it sink in before you run off with this Sonnen has returned hype junk. He will lose to top fighters at 205 or 185 like he always has.


He just beat a top fighter at 205. Shogun's last fight was a close decision loss to the guy that is about to fight for the belt. He is still an incredibly tough out for most people at LHW.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> I'm not sure why you think anyone needs to lower their standards to answer any questions from a condescending poster.


You have standards? Good on you breh. I wish I had me some of those.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

joshua7789 said:


> He just beat a top fighter at 205. Shogun's last fight was a close decision loss to the guy that is about to fight for the belt. He is still an incredibly tough out for most people at LHW.


Shogun has been mostly irrelevant at LHW for a long time now and he is definitely not a top fighter at 205 anymore. Shogun is middle of the pack just like most of the LHW division.


----------



## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

Shogun is on the way out (hell he's halfway out the door!) and Sonnen is back!

Watched the fight second time over today, was just as satisfying as Live


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Shogun is middle of the pack just like most of the LHW division.


Ok... so if Shogun is "middle of the pack" - aka mediocre - then what does that make Sonnen?


----------



## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Shogun has been mostly irrelevant at LHW for a long time now and he is definitely not a top fighter at 205 anymore. Shogun is middle of the pack just like most of the LHW division.


The only guy that Shogun wasn't competitive with (until last night at least) was Jones (that guy that makes everyone look terrible).


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> Ok... so if Shogun is "middle of the pack" - aka mediocre - then what does that make Sonnen?


The same as he always has been, mediocre.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> The same as he always has been, mediocre.


I rest my case.


----------



## Proud German (Sep 28, 2012)

sucrets said:


> chael is still a mediocre fighter. Don't get all excited fanboys. Once they put a solid fighter in front of him he will curl up like a baby like he did with Anderson.


No..just no.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

joshua7789 said:


> The only guy that Shogun wasn't competitive with (until last night at least) was Jones (that guy that makes everyone look terrible).


Shogun being competitive against other middle of the pack fighters over the last few years does'nt say much.


----------



## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

That was probably Chael's most impressive performance to date. He does well against guys with horrific wrestling.

Its insane that Chael looked like a million bucks this fight, but Jones made him look like a bum.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

BOOM said:


> Read my post over and let it sink in before you run off with this Sonnen has returned hype junk. He will lose to top fighters at 205 or 185 like he always has.


What? He beat Bisping, Stan, Okami, Nate, Miller, Shogun, he's only lost to the #1 and #2 P4P best fighters in the world and he almost beat Anderson in the first fight. He lost to Maia but both are ground fighters and Maia is one of the best in the world there if not the best.

Sonnen has proved he's a top fighter in the UFC before, and him manhandling Shogun and finishing him in a single round (which nobody has ever done, btw) is just more proof of it. Shogun's last fights were against Henderson/Gus, two top of the top guys who shogun went to decision with, one of which is now fighting for the title.

Shogun isn't the killer top dog anymore, but he's still a competitive fighter who while fighting the top guys in the division gives them a good fight.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

M.C said:


> What? He beat Bisping, Stan, Okami, Nate, Miller, Shogun, he's only lost to the #1 and #2 P4P best fighters in the world and he almost beat Anderson in the first fight...
> 
> ...him manhandling Shogun and finishing him in a single round (which nobody has ever done, btw) is just more proof of it. Shogun's last fights were against Henderson/Gus, two top of the top guys who shogun went to decision with, one of which is now fighting for the title.


Pfft... see it all the time. The very definition of average.*










* assuming you are incredibly thick.


----------



## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

While Sonnen put on a very fine performance and should be appropriately commended, I think people are overlooking the fact that Shogun is practically tailor made for him. 

I balked at the people that thought Shogun would win and the results from last night more than proved my point. Shogun has bad wrestling, bad cardio, and terrible knees. He's had a fantastic career that should be celebrated but he ran into another elite fighter who was just a bad match up for him.

I can't imagine what is going through Shogun's head right now. A BJJ black belt from Brazil, and you lose to a guy fighting up a weight class, reviled by Brazilian fans, and a historically poor submission game by submission in the first round? That HAS to sting.


----------



## Black_S15 (Jul 14, 2010)

BOOM said:


> Read my post over and let it sink in before you run off with this Sonnen has returned hype junk. He will lose to top fighters at 205 or 185 like he always has.


His last 2 losses in the last how many f***** years have been against only the GOAT and future GOAT. Ffs I'm sick of people hating on sonnen and being so biased. It was a solid win and he fought an excellent fight.


----------



## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

M.C said:


> What? He beat Bisping, Stan, Okami, Nate, Miller, Shogun, he's only lost to the #1 and #2 P4P best fighters in the world and he almost beat Anderson in the first fight. He lost to Maia but both are ground fighters and Maia is one of the best in the world there if not the best.
> 
> Sonnen has proved he's a top fighter in the UFC before, and him manhandling Shogun and finishing him in a single round *(which nobody has ever done, btw)* is just more proof of it. Shogun's last fights were against Henderson/Gus, two top of the top guys who shogun went to decision with, one of which is now fighting for the title.
> 
> Shogun isn't the killer top dog anymore, but he's still a competitive fighter who while fighting the top guys in the division gives them a good fight.


Coleman...by a bit of fluke.  Interesting note. Only other fighters to submit Shogun is his own trainer Babalu with none other than a guillotine and Griffin as well. 

A lot of old school fan favorites are getting upset lately. *smh* 

Some people seem to lose to specific submissions.
Chael - triangle
Matt Hughes - arm bar
Shogun - guillotine
Kevin Randleman - every kind of submission


----------



## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

This actually depresses the hell out of me and not just because Chael Sonnen won (trust me I really wanted to see him lose). Their was a time Shogun would have eaten guys like Sonnen for lunch. Last night, you would not think this was the same guy that won the 2005 Middleweight Grand Prix. Now it seems like he's getting his ass handed to him by everyone. So depressing. 

As much as I hate to admit this (I mean really hate to admit it) but this was a good performance by Chael. Not ready to call him the best let. Miller, Bisping, and Stann don't exactly scream top tier. I'd like to see him fight Machida (hopefully the Nick Diaz fight doesn't happen) or maybe Rashad and see how he does. If he can beat those guys then I'll shallow my Pride and admit he is the best.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

M.C said:


> What? He beat Bisping, Stan, Okami, Nate, Miller, Shogun, he's only lost to the #1 and #2 P4P best fighters in the world and he almost beat Anderson in the first fight. He lost to Maia but both are ground fighters and Maia is one of the best in the world there if not the best.
> 
> Sonnen has proved he's a top fighter in the UFC before, and him manhandling Shogun and finishing him in a single round (which nobody has ever done, btw) is just more proof of it. Shogun's last fights were against Henderson/Gus, two top of the top guys who shogun went to decision with, one of which is now fighting for the title.
> 
> Shogun isn't the killer top dog anymore, but he's still a competitive fighter who while fighting the top guys in the division gives them a good fight.



Whole bunch of mediocre and middle of the pack fighters you just named off there. Sonnen is not a top fighter at any weight class, he never was and never will be.




Black_S15 said:


> His last 2 losses in the last how many f***** years have been against only the GOAT and future GOAT. Ffs I'm sick of people hating on sonnen and being so biased. It was a solid win and he fought an excellent fight.


Exactly, and he got smoked against those top fighters. Something which Sonnen isn't.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

BOOM said:


> Whole bunch of mediocre and middle of the pack fighters you just named off there. Sonnen is not a top fighter at any weight class, he never was and never will be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So he defeats every middle of the road fighter he's ever faced (Shogun is above that btw, but I'm using your view), so logic dictates he's not middle of the road, he's above that, right? So... where would that put him? Using some logic and common sense, wouldn't that make him in the upper echelon of fighters, someone who defeats middle of the road guys every time 'cause he's better than that, he's beyond them, he needs to be facing top competition cause he runs through anyone below that...right?

You have lower tier fighters, middle of the road fighters, and then what is above that? I'm curious to know where you put Sonnen at, he's obviously not a low tier fighter, obviously better than middle of the pack as he beats everyone he faces there (in your opinion that is, Shogun is actually better than that), so where is he placed?


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

M.C said:


> So he defeats every middle of the road fighter he's ever faced (Shogun is above that btw, but I'm using your view), so logic dictates he's not middle of the road, he's above that, right? So... where would that put him? Using some logic and common sense, wouldn't that make him in the upper echelon of fighters, someone who defeats middle of the road guys every time 'cause he's better than that, he's beyond them, he needs to be facing top competition cause he runs through anyone below that...right?
> 
> You have lower tier fighters, middle of the road fighters, and then what is above that? I'm curious to know where you put Sonnen at, he's obviously not a low tier fighter, obviously better than middle of the pack as he beats everyone he faces there (in your opinion that is, Shogun is actually better than that), so where is he placed?



Sonnen is good enough to beat cans, other middle of the pack fighters and fighters past their prime but not good enough to beat top fighters because when he has it's clear he was nowhere near that level.

It couldn't be more obvious that he's middle of the pack. Sonnen is a glorified Bonnar because of his mouth. And no Shogun is not above middle of the pack, he hasn't been since 2007.


----------



## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

BOOM said:


> Sonnen is good enough to beat cans, other middle of the pack fighters and fighters past their prime but not good enough to beat top fighters because when he has it's clear he was nowhere near that level.
> 
> It couldn't be more obvious that he's middle of the pack. Sonnen is a glorified Bonnar because of his mouth*. And no Shogun is not above middle of the pack, he hasn't been since 2007.*


Lyoto Machida would disagree with you. That below middle of the pack gave Machida his first loss and won the UFC LHW title in the process. Tomato Cans don't KO fighters like Machida.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

BOOM said:


> Sonnen is good enough to beat cans, other middle of the pack fighters and fighters past their prime but not good enough to beat top fighters because when he has it's clear he was nowhere near that level.
> 
> It couldn't be more obvious that he's middle of the pack. Sonnen is a glorified Bonnar because of his mouth. And no Shogun is not above middle of the pack, he hasn't been since 2007.


Okay, so let me get this straight. A guy who beats middle of the road fighters consistently without fail is also a middle of the road fighter and not considered above them? So... wait, what?

Nevermind, I'm dropping out of this one, it's really not worth the headache trying to understand it.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Sonnen is good enough to beat cans, other middle of the pack fighters and fighters past their prime but not good enough to beat top fighters because when he has it's clear he was nowhere near that level.
> 
> It couldn't be more obvious that he's middle of the pack. Sonnen is a glorified Bonnar because of his mouth. And no Shogun is not above middle of the pack, he hasn't been since 2007.


You do realize that if you beat every average fighter put in front of you, then that makes you *above* average right? Its not rocket science.

EDIT

Damn you MC. Damn you hard.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

M.C said:


> Okay, so let me get this straight. A guy who beats middle of the road fighters consistently without fail is also a middle of the road fighter and not considered above them?


Pretty much, in fact this happens all the time. And then said fighter goes up against legitimate top fighters and gets whooped because they are not a top fighter like everyone believes.

The bottom line is that they just have wins against guys who are mostly irrelevant which does'nt make someone a top fighter, they have to actually beat a top fighter sometime in their lifetime to actually be considered one themselves.


----------



## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

Rauno said:


> No MMA fighter is terrified or scared of another man. They may fear the lostt but that's another story.


Well, people were scared of Palhares at one point for sure... Could be a career ending fight for you if he decides that is the day he wants to be a dick.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> You do realize that if you beat every average fighter put in front of you, then that makes you *above* average right? Its not rocket science.
> 
> EDIT
> 
> Damn you MC. Damn you hard.



I'll give Sonnen his dues if he beats someone like Texaria or even Gus. Top fighters, not fighters well past their prime and middle of the pack guys no one will remember.


----------



## Black_S15 (Jul 14, 2010)

BOOM said:


> Sonnen is good enough to beat cans, other middle of the pack fighters and fighters past their prime *but not good enough to beat top fighters because when he has it's clear he was nowhere near that level.*It couldn't be more obvious that he's middle of the pack. Sonnen is a glorified Bonnar because of his mouth. And no Shogun is not above middle of the pack, he hasn't been since 2007.


wow i didnt realised absolutely dominating the Greatest fighter of all time for 4.5 rounds was performing "nowhere near that level" of "top fighters"
:sarcastic12:

and agree with the other dude, Tomata cans dont knock out guys like machida, which at the time, his fighting style was still not figured by his opponents.


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

BOOM said:


> Pretty much, in fact this happens all the time. And then said fighter goes up against legitimate top fighters and gets whooped because they are not a top fighter like everyone believes.
> 
> The bottom line is that they just have wins against guys who are mostly irrelevant which does'nt make someone a top fighter, they have to actually beat a top fighter sometime in their lifetime to actually be considered one themselves.


Wouldnt that make Sonnen somewhere inbetween a middle of the road fight and a top fighter??? Since he beats middle of the road fighters but loses to the very best... 

Middle of the road< Sonnen < Jon Jones,Anderson Silva


----------



## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Pretty much, in fact this happens all the time. And then said fighter goes up against legitimate top fighters and gets whooped because they are not a top fighter like everyone believes.
> 
> The bottom line is that they just have wins against guys who are mostly irrelevant which does'nt make someone a top fighter, they have to actually beat a top fighter sometime in their lifetime to actually be considered one themselves.


Sonnen knocked off 3 number 1 contenders to get his mw title shots...


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

SideWays222 said:


> Wouldnt that make Sonnen somewhere inbetween a middle of the road fight and a top fighter??? Since he beats middle of the road fighters but loses to the very best...
> 
> Middle of the road< Sonnen < Jon Jones,Anderson Silva


You have to beat a top fighter to actually be considered one. It's like people want to invent new tiers for fighters just because Sonnen beat a well past his prime Shogun last night.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> You have to beat a top fighter to actually be considered one. It's like people want to invent new tiers for fighters just because Sonnen beat a well past his prime Shogun last night.


No, we dont invent new tiers. Those tiers are already there my friend. There is a MASSIVE chasm between what you could possible call mediocre and the elite fighters. But you want to bundle Sonnen in the same bracket as CB Dollaway... the very definition of mediocre.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> No, we dont invent new tiers. Those tiers are already there my friend. There is a MASSIVE chasm between what you could possible call mediocre and the elite fighters. But you want to bundle Sonnen in the same bracket as CB Dollaway... the very definition of mediocre.


Well seeing as Sonnen is not anywhere near elite and has only beat middle of the pack fighters but still is without a win over a top fighter at 185 or 205 that still leaves him lumped in there with the rest of them in that middle tier.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Well seeing as Sonnen is not anywhere near elite and has only beat middle of the pack fighters but still is without a win over a top fighter at 185 or 205 that still leaves him lumped in there with the rest of them in that middle tier.


Outside of Bones, Silva and Weidman, please tell me the other fighters you consider top level. And tell me how many of those have wins over the other top guys?

Please. Do tell.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> Outside of Bones, Silva and Weidman, please tell me the other fighters you consider top level. And tell me how many of those have wins over the other top guys?
> 
> Please. Do tell.


There isn't much outside of Gus and Glover at LHW. At MW it's even worse, a huge percentage of each weight class is not anywhere near top level. Tons of filler however.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> There isn't much outside of Gus and Glover at LHW. At MW it's even worse, a huge percentage of each weight class is not anywhere near top level. Tons of filler however.


Gus and Tex? What top guys have they beaten?

Your logic is absurdly flawed. Sonnen needs to beat a fighter, like Gus or Tex, to be considered a top guy. And yet neither of those two have ever beaten a top guy.

:confused02: x 170


----------



## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

Soojooko said:


> Gus and Tex? What top guys have they beaten?
> 
> Your logic is absurdly flawed. Sonnen needs to beat a fighter, like Gus or Tex, to be considered a top guy. And yet neither of those two have ever beaten a top guy.
> 
> :confused02: x 170


aaaaand we have logic...

/thread


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Soojooko said:


> Gus and Tex? What top guys have they beaten?
> 
> Your logic is absurdly flawed. Sonnen needs to beat a fighter, like Gus or Tex, to be considered a top guy. And yet neither of those two have ever beaten a top guy.
> 
> :confused02: x 170


Gus beat Shogun, remember? Oh, nvm.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Black_S15 (Jul 14, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> Gus and Tex? What top guys have they beaten?
> 
> Your logic is absurdly flawed. Sonnen needs to beat a fighter, like Gus or Tex, to be considered a top guy. And yet neither of those two have ever beaten a top guy.
> 
> :confused02: x 170


BOOM, you have been completely owned and your theory is very is very silly. Infact if you applied it to many great fighters, according to your logic they aren't so great after all.

Your hate and biased against chael has completely clouded your judgment.


----------



## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

This is just ridiculous, Sonnen is world class and has proven it. Losing to Jones and Silva means he's not better than 2 of the best mma fighters of all time, you can still be elite and lose to the very best.


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

BOOM said:


> You have to beat a top fighter to actually be considered one. It's like people want to invent new tiers for fighters just because Sonnen beat a well past his prime Shogun last night.


Lol new tier??? From when is the tier between Middle and top a new tier??? What the hell goes on in that head of yours.


----------



## MCMAP Wizzard (Feb 5, 2012)

BOOM said:


> Well seeing as Sonnen is not anywhere near elite and has only beat middle of the pack fighters but still is without a win over a top fighter at 185 or 205 that still leaves him lumped in there with the rest of them in that middle tier.


Take it easy on BOOM you guise, it's pretty obvious Chael took his sister's anal virginity.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> Gus and Tex? What top guys have they beaten?
> 
> Your logic is absurdly flawed. Sonnen needs to beat a fighter, like Gus or Tex, to be considered a top guy. And yet neither of those two have ever beaten a top guy.
> 
> :confused02: x 170


If you cannot tell the difference between Sonnen and fighters like Gus or Glover it's not surprising you're still confused.





Black_S15 said:


> BOOM, you have been completely owned and your theory is very is very silly. Infact if you applied it to many great fighters, according to your logic they aren't so great after all.



Completely incorrect. Great fighters have actually beaten great fighters, held titles, defended their titles and the list goes on and on. Great fighter is a term that is reserved for very few individuals because of how rare they actually are. Sonnen has never accomplished anything close to great in this sport. Downplaying greatness to somehow lump Sonnen in there is what is outright silly on your behalf.




rabakill said:


> This is just ridiculous, Sonnen is world class and has proven it. Losing to Jones and Silva means he's not better than 2 of the best mma fighters of all time, you can still be elite and lose to the very best.


Beating middle of the pack fighters and fighters past their prime does not make you elite, especially when you go on to fight top fighters and are completely outclassed. Sonnen has excellent wrestling which works against mediocre fighters but against the top dogs he clearly stands no chance. This much everyone knows, the term elite and Sonnen do not belong in the sentence unless you are incredibly green to MMA.





SideWays222 said:


> Lol new tier??? From when is the tier between Middle and top a new tier??? What the hell goes on in that head of yours.


There never was a tier in between middle of pack and the clear cut fighters in the top tier.


----------



## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

So Chael Sonnen, who's beaten Yushin Okami, Shogun Rua, Michael Bisping, Nate Marquardt, absolutely mauled Anderson Silva for 4.5 rounds, and has only lost to Silva and Jon Jones in 4 years isn't world class; but Alexander Gustafsson who's best wins are Mauricio Rua, Thiago Silva and Vladamir Matyushenko, but has lost to Phil Davis is world class? and Glover Teixeira who's best wins are Rampage Jackson and Fabio Maldonado is world class? I think you need to re-define your definition of world class.


----------



## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Boom is having fun with y'all.:laugh:
He's not really stupid.:hug:


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

oldfan said:


> Boom is having fun with y'all.:laugh:
> He's not really stupid.:hug:


Its pretty mediocre fun, if im honest.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Danm2501 said:


> So Chael Sonnen, who's beaten Yushin Okami, Shogun Rua, Michael Bisping, Nate Marquardt, absolutely mauled Anderson Silva for 4.5 rounds, and has only lost to Silva and Jon Jones in 4 years isn't world class; but Alexander Gustafsson who's best wins are Mauricio Rua, Thiago Silva and Vladamir Matyushenko, but has lost to Phil Davis is world class? and Glover Teixeira who's best wins are Rampage Jackson and Fabio Maldonado is world class? I think you need to re-define your definition of world class.


No I'm saying Gus and Glover are the top dogs at LHW, something which Sonnen isn't.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> You have to beat a top fighter to actually be considered one.





BOOM said:


> I'll give Sonnen his dues if he beats someone like Texaria or even Gus. Top fighters.



I'm going to ask, for the third time, how the above two quotes don't totally contradict themselves?


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BOOM said:


> Completely incorrect. Great fighters have actually beaten great fighters, held titles, defended their titles and the list goes on and on. Great fighter is a term that is reserved for very few individuals because of how rare they actually are. Sonnen has never accomplished anything close to great in this sport. Downplaying greatness to somehow lump Sonnen in there is what is outright silly on your behalf.


 Using your logic, Shogun is a great fighter and Chael just beat him. I would also like to point out that the only reason Chael has never held a title is because Paul Fihlo failed to make weight for there WEC title fight. Losing to the greatest MW and the greatest LHW of all time does not mean you are not great.





> Beating middle of the pack fighters and fighters past their prime does not make you elite, especially when you go on to fight top fighters and are completely outclassed. Sonnen has excellent wrestling which works against mediocre fighters but against the top dogs he clearly stands no chance. This much everyone knows, the term elite and Sonnen do not belong in the sentence unless you are incredibly green to MMA.


 Two of the top 5 guys in the MW division, and a former UFC LHW champion on his resume and you say middle of the pack. What top fighter out classed him? Certainly not anyone in his weight class since he spent over 20 minutes looking like he was out classing Anderson Silva in the first fight. Jon Jones is the only guy that made Sonnen look bad. Your making absurd claims and then try to make it look like you would need to be ignorant to disagree when all the facts are right in front of you to make a more than valid argument to contradict you.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> I'm going to ask, for the third time, how the above two quotes don't totally contradict themselves?


They don't contradict themselves, unless you're blinded and believe Sonnen is in the same class as Gus or Glover because he beat a well past his prime Shogun and middle of the pack fighters at 185.




Toxic said:


> Using your logic, Shogun is a great fighter and Chael just beat him. I would also like to point out that the only reason Chael has never held a title is because Paul Fihlo failed to make weight for there WEC title fight. Losing to the greatest MW and the greatest LHW of all time does not mean you are not great.


Shogun was a great fighter, 5-6 years ago. Chael has never held a title because he's not that good, great and Sonnen do not belong in the same sentence unless there's some kind of award being given out to fighters for not accomplishing anything spectacular during their careers.




> Two of the top 5 guys in the MW division, and a former UFC LHW champion on his resume and you say middle of the pack. What top fighter out classed him? Certainly not anyone in his weight class since he spent over 20 minutes looking like he was out classing Anderson Silva in the first fight. Jon Jones is the only guy that made Sonnen look bad. Your making absurd claims and then try to make it look like you would need to be ignorant to disagree when all the facts are right in front of you to make a more than valid argument to contradict you.


Sonnen has never has a fought a top fighter and won decisively, also did you miss Silva vs Sonnen II?


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> They don't contradict themselves


Ok, so that's "mediocre" and "contradict" that you clearly have no idea how to use.

Please... carry on...


----------



## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

I've been telling you guys all along, Anderson Silva and Jon Jone are nothing special.

Neither one of them have ever beat Gus or Tex. They're as mediocre as their competition.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> Ok, so that's "mediocre" and "contradict" that you clearly have no idea how to use.
> 
> Please... carry on...



You would sort of have a point if your posts made a lick of sense, typically it's the people that try to hard because they can't keep up which lack this understanding thing you're trying to get around to.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BOOM said:


> They don't contradict themselves, unless you're blinded and believe Sonnen is in the same class as Gus or Glover because he beat a well past his prime Shogun and middle of the pack fighters at 185.


 Sonnen decimated the same Shgoun that a decision over is the biggest win of Gus's career. Chael has PROVEN more than Gus has using your own logic but then there is not formula to account for simple hatred. 




> Shogun was a great fighter, 5-6 years ago. Chael has never held a title because he's not that good, great and Sonnen do not belong in the same sentence unless there's some kind of award being given out to fighters for not accomplishing anything spectacular during their careers.


 I would think that having fought 3 times for UFC titles in two seperate weight classes against some of the GOAT, being the rightful final WEC middle weight champ and having beaten somme great MW's and dominated the former UFC LHW champ and Pride Legend like nobody before him all sound like some spectacular accomplishments beating the shit out of a man many consider the GOAT for 20 minutes is spectacular win lose or draw. That is far past the upper one percentile accomplishment wise.




> Sonnen has never has a fought a top fighter and won decisively, also did you miss Silva vs Sonnen II?


I can try to discredit evey victory Jones has because the older generation just got old, I can argue that Anderson Silva never beat a great fighter by your logic but the truth is every one knows that at this point your arguing more for the sake of a reaction than anything else.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> You would sort of have a point if your posts made a lick of sense, typically it's the people that try to hard because they can't keep up which lack this understanding thing you're trying to get around to.


... adds "sense" to the list.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I got a great bit of logic, if you need to beat a "great" fighter to become a "great" fighter than there has never been a "great" fighter. So now that you are all sufficiently mind blown carry on.


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Toxic said:


> Sonnen decimated the same Shgoun that a decision over is the biggest win of Gus's career. Chael has PROVEN more than Gus has using your own logic but then there is not formula to account for simple hatred.


They both beat a fighter well past his prime but Sonnen has not proven more than Gus at LHW. Using your logic Bigfoot should be considered a great fighter because he beat a past his prime Fedor, clearly that's not the case. 




> I would think that having fought 3 times for UFC titles in two seperate weight classes against some of the GOAT, being the rightful final WEC middle weight champ and having beaten somme great MW's and dominated the former UFC LHW champ and Pride Legend like nobody before him all sound like some spectacular accomplishments beating the shit out of a man many consider the GOAT for 20 minutes is spectacular win lose or draw. That is far past the upper one percentile accomplishment wise.


He talked his way to title fights and got embarrassed, even with the rounds he won against Silva in their first fight Sonnen still got tapped out and lost. Winning rounds means nothing if you don't win the fight. It certainly does'nt make you a great fighter either, "almost" means you weren't good enough yet Sonnen fans still cling onto this 20 minutes of fame like this accomplishment should be awarded a belt. How did the rematch work out for him? 






> I can try to discredit evey victory Jones has because the older generation just got old, I can argue that Anderson Silva never beat a great fighter by your logic but the truth is every one knows that at this point your arguing more for the sake of a reaction than anything else.


It would be foolish to try and discredit Jones and Silva's runs and then compare them to Sonnen's body of work, Jones and Silva are two of the elite of the elite in the game. Something which Sonnen will never come close to being. Wise choice not going there.


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## H33LHooK (Jul 13, 2011)

SideWays222 said:


> Wouldnt that make Sonnen somewhere inbetween a middle of the road fight and a top fighter??? Since he beats middle of the road fighters but loses to the very best...
> 
> Middle of the road< Sonnen < Jon Jones,Anderson Silva


There's another subjective term that compliments "Tier" nicely: "Gatekeeper".

I think that's the lable BOOM might be tagging Chael with.

While I don't see him as a title-challenger at LHW, Cheal is obviously intelligent, and just as obviously, still evolving as a fighter. 

He'll give fits to guys lacking elite striking/footwork, as well as guys who are deficient in wrasslin'/TDD. 

So yeah, IMO, Chael _is_ a gatekeeper-- but only in the sense that guys have to get past him to be considered Top 5 at LHW.


.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Toxic said:


> I got a great bit of logic, if you need to beat a "great" fighter to become a "great" fighter than there has never been a "great" fighter. So now that you are all sufficiently mind blown carry on.



Exactly. Brain twisting or what?

So, if I'm an average fighter and I need to beat a top fighter to be considered top myself... then surely the "top" fighter I just beat isnt really top because he just got beaten by an average fighter, right?

Welcome to planet BOOM. Where shit flies in magnificent directions. :thumbsup:


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BOOM said:


> They both beat a fighter well past his prime but Sonnen has not proven more than Gus at LHW. Using your logic Bigfoot should be considered a great fighter because he beat a past his prime Fedor, clearly that's not the case.


I never said that Sonnen was more proven at LHW than Gus I said over all he was as proven or more proven as a fighter. 


> He talked his way to title fights and got embarrassed, even with the rounds he won against Silva in their first fight Sonnen still got tapped out and lost. Winning rounds means nothing if you don't win the fight. It certainly does'nt make you a great fighter either, "almost" means you weren't good enough yet* Sonnen fans still cling onto this 20 minutes of fame* like this accomplishment should be awarded a belt. How did the rematch work out for him?


 And Sonnen haters like you still ignore them.






> It would be foolish to try and discredit Jones and Silva's runs and then compare them to Sonnen's body of work, Jones and Silva are two of the elite of the elite in the game. Something which Sonnen will never come close to being. Wise choice not going there.


I am not comparing there bodies of work my point was that if you choose to wrap everything up as either a mediocre fighter or a has been that there are few fighters that you could not bury using that logic. Here is an example, "Anderson Silva is way over rated the only world champions he ever beat were Rich Franklin who was only champion because the division was weak and has since lost half his fights. Dan Henderson was old and washed up I mean who has he beat since then? Same with Forrest I mean the could only beat a broken down Tito and a bloated MW after that. Nobody else Anderson fought was any good they all sucked and were mediocre which is proven because they never held the MW title, if they were any good they would have beaten Anderson but they didn't so obviously they suck. Hell Chris Weidman is obviously mediocre because he never beat a great fighter and he just beat Silva proving that Silva lost to a mediocre fighter in Weidman meaning Silva was never great and there fore Weidman still is mediocre because he has only beaten mediocre fighters" That is Boom's logic at work I just proved that Anderson Silva is mediocre and Weidman always will be.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Toxic said:


> I got a great bit of logic, if you need to beat a "great" fighter to become a "great" fighter than there has never been a "great" fighter. So now that you are all sufficiently mind blown carry on.


Faulty logic is more like it but you bring up a good point, one of the many things a fighter should have on their resume to even be in the "great" conversation is to beat a great fighter.

Does Sonnen have one win over a great fighter? No

Has Sonnen ever held or defended a belt? No

Was Sonnen completely outclassed against "great" fighters like Silva and Jones? Absolutely


If you're still wondering why this is it's because Sonnen is not even remotely close to a "great" fighter. Mind boggling isn't it?





H33LHooK said:


> There's another subjective term that compliments "Tier" nicely: "Gatekeeper".
> 
> I think that's the lable BOOM might be tagging Chael with.
> 
> ...



Someone gets it.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Does Tex/Gus have one win over a great fighter? No
> 
> Has Gus/Tex ever held or defended a belt? No
> 
> Have Gus/Tex ever had a title fight? No


Gus and Tex suck.:thumbsdown:




BOOM said:


> Someone gets it.


Eh? 
A minute ago you were accusing us of making up tiers. Now you are agreeing there *is* another tier called "gatekeeper". So Sonnen is a gatekeeper, yes?


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Toxic said:


> And Sonnen haters like you still ignore them.




I don't hate Sonnen but I have no problem calling him what he really is instead of over glorifying a fighter who is not great by anyone's standards. Fighters win rounds all the time and lose but the majority of them are not considered great fighters for doing this yet Sonnen is. That's quite the double standard.




> I am not comparing there bodies of work my point was that if you choose to wrap everything up as either a mediocre fighter or a has been that there are few fighters that you could not bury using that logic. Here is an example, "Anderson Silva is way over rated the only world champions he ever beat were Rich Franklin who was only champion because the division was weak and has since lost half his fights. Dan Henderson was old and washed up I mean who has he beat since then? Same with Forrest I mean the could only beat a broken down Tito and a bloated MW after that. Nobody else Anderson fought was any good they all sucked and were mediocre which is proven because they never held the MW title, if they were any good they would have beaten Anderson but they didn't so obviously they suck. Hell Chris Weidman is obviously mediocre because he never beat a great fighter and he just beat Silva proving that Silva lost to a mediocre fighter in Weidman meaning Silva was never great and there fore Weidman still is mediocre because he has only beaten mediocre fighters" That is Boom's logic at work I just proved that Anderson Silva is mediocre and Weidman always will be.


Again it would be foolish to downplay Silva's run just so you can lump Sonnen in there as a great fighter, there's a ridiculous amount of separation between great fighters like Silva and fighters like Sonnen. Incredibly silly to even go there.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Jon Jones' best win is over Shogun.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

BOOM said:


> there's a ridiculous amount of separation between great fighters like Silva and fighters like Sonnen. Incredibly silly to even go there.


yeah, Anderson Silva is the greatest of all time, so... kind of a silly comparison. There's a huge gap between Jones/Silva and everyone (exception Weidman maybe, we'll see). Sonnen is one of the best fighters in the world fighting the top fighters in multiple divisions in the most talent rich company in the business and he will take any fight at the drop of a hat. 

There are less than 15 guys in the world that can beat him up at 205 or 185. When you are better than nearly everyone in the world but very few people you are elite. Being worse than the very best ever doesn't make you suck, Foreman lost to Ali but that doesn't mean he was a bum. I mean his record speaks for itself, he's fighting top guys all the time and he can't beat 2 of the very best ever, it's just ludicrous to give him so little credit. Maybe his style is boring to you but the man deserves credit for being one of the best in the business, he has one of the best takedowns in the entire sport and he's extremely well rounded. Find me some more guys besides Silva and Jones that will walk all over him.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Ape City said:


> Jon Jones' best win is over Shogun.


Well... theres an argument that Belfort was a better win. So Bones greatest moments came against a has-been husk and a middleweight.

So, Jones is average. Gus and Tex are mediocre. Machida just lost to Davis, so hes now lower-tier. Rua doesnt even exist anymore.

Technically, Chris Weidman is the only elite fighter at MW or LHW. Hes the only one with a win over another top fighter.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

Soojooko said:


> Well... theres an argument that Belfort was a better win. So Bones greatest moments came against a has-been husk and a middleweight.
> 
> So, Jones is average. Gus and Tex are mediocre. Machida just lost to Davis, so hes now lower-tier. Rua doesnt even exist anymore.
> 
> Technically, Chris Weidman is the only elite fighter at MW or LHW. Hes the only one with a win over another top fighter.


this is sarcasm... right?


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

rabakill said:


> this is sarcasm... right?


Clearly Sonnen is equal to Jones because they both beat Shogun.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> Well... theres an argument that Belfort was a better win. So Bones greatest moments came against a has-been husk and a middleweight.
> 
> So, Jones is average. Gus and Tex are mediocre. Machida just lost to Davis, so hes now lower-tier. Rua doesnt even exist anymore.
> 
> Technically, Chris Weidman is the only elite fighter at MW or LHW. Hes the only one with a win over another top fighter.





rabakill said:


> this is sarcasm... right?


Nope - it's textbook BOOM-logic. (or trolling, for most people out there)


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

I think some are struggling to identify sarcasm in this thread... if not, this thread has turned into a very sad case.

Tis year of the upset. Chael winning is not an upset, the manner of which he won... it is.

Doesn't actually mean anything, fight was even going in... mad shit happens. Shogun fights by this rule and should be respected for it.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

BOOM said:


> Clearly Sonnen is equal to Jones because they both beat Shogun.


Not a single person believes Sonnen is equal to Jones. But he is right under there with the rest of the top 5 guys.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> Not a single person believes Sonnen is equal to Jones. But he is right under there with the rest of the top 5 guys.


Top 5 is rubbish apparently. If you are not Gus, Tex or Bones then you are part of the LHW mediocrity posse.

If you want to join those elite 3, you need to beat one of them... Something none of them have actually done.

:laugh:

No matter how many times I write it down, it never gets old.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

SideWays222 said:


> Not a single person believes Sonnen is equal to Jones.* But he is right under there with the rest of the top 5 guys*.


Sonnen beating Shogun hardly qualifies him as top 5 at LHW. Who else has he beat at LHW?

Jones
Gus 
Glover
Davis
Machida 
Evans
Hendo
Nog
Bader


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Sonnen beating Shogun hardly qualifies him as top 5 at LHW. Who else has he beat at LHW?
> 
> Jones
> Gus
> ...


...and who have Gus and Glover beaten on that list?


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## GDPofDRB (Apr 18, 2013)

Much credit to Sonnen on his fight, he did what suited him best and jumped on the neck when an opening appeared. Clean. He deserves a lot of respect for getting the job done. 

However, it was interesting watching people's reaction to Sonnen post-fight. He went from hero to zero with his post fight speech for the 4 people having their MMA cherry popped at my place Saturday night, a few of my other friends who watch MMA where there also and knew what was coming. Everyone was entertained by the whole night of fights for the most part which was a surprising step forward for these new guys and gals, but the exposure to Sonnen was two steps back and the out needed to prompt subtle ridicule and pity for the MMA fans, "look at what they like, lol". Became a joke to them, only one of my friends is into Sonnen's act and I watched him really shrink trying to defend it as being cool to everyone else. It's a joke, they knew, but not the, "oh he does that on purpose though" joke people try to qualify to Sonnen's shtick. People getting their very first look at the guy were very aware he is acting and thought it was contrived and corny, turned them off to the guy. Thought it was interesting hearing that because it's what I argue, but not to noobs, to MMA people. They thought their children would of ate it up if they were watching though.

I like Sonnen against anyone he runs his mouth at. Wanderlei, Rogerio, Vitor, Machida, doesn't matter. I think securing this big win also landed him a spot on the bottom of the LHW top ten, he is in a wrestling tier at the moment a bit different then the other wrestlers at 205, in that because wrestling has to be his first option. That can get him places though and it will be very interesting to see what fight he ends up with. He isn't relevant to the rankings though really because to Zuffa he is bigger then rankings or divisions so me considering him to of broken into the top ten might not mean as much as it would for other fighters. Shogun also will be booked without consideration to logic in the same manner. Hendo, Machida, Vitor, Rogerio, anyone, they are gonna book him to fight to make money and to put on a show entertaining the audience in the cage, not to ascend professionally. That's fine. So long as he is doing what he wants, no problem at all.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> ...and who have Gus and Glover beaten on that list?


A lot more LHW's than Sonnen has ever beaten with career records to back it up. Which is also why they are top fighters in their division currently.

Now explain how Sonnen, a fighter who has 9 career wins but also has 8 career losses in the UFC is a top 5 LHW or even a top fighter like you have been proclaiming for the last two days when his record clearly indicates the opposite?


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Now explain how Sonnen, a fighter who has 9 career wins but also has 8 career losses in the UFC is a top 5 LHW or even a top fighter like you have been proclaiming for the last two days when his record clearly indicates the opposite?


Simple. Outside of Bones, Chaels performance on Saturday night was far more impressive then anything anybody has done at LHW for quite some time.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> Simple. Outside of Bones, Chaels performance on Saturday night was far more impressive then anything anybody has done at LHW for quite some time.


One win over a past his prime Shogun is not that impressive at LHW. Davis, Glover and Gus' runs at LHW are impressive and definitely disagree with your statement. These are guys who might have one loss or are unbeaten in their division and I'm not even including a plethora of other LHW's who have much better career records than Sonnen. Then there's fighters like Machida, Evans and even Shogun that have held the actual title and/or defended it compared to Sonnen at LHW who has done nothing of the sort. Aside from his win against Shogun he was Jones easiest defeat by far in this division.

Sonnen is an average fighter with above average wrestling who also comes with a very average career record. Definitely not a top fighter because he has lost as much as he has won in the UFC, his wins haven't come against top fighters aside from maybe Okami 3 or 4 years ago. He does'nt belong in the same breath as top fighters at MW or LHW and I'm guessing that's why you dodged my question again.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

just watch his fights. Only one guy has ever controlled him in the octagon, Chael has a likely chance of dominating Evans, Davis, Glover caliber guys purely because his wrestling is so good. Glover vs. Sonnen would be a great fight, the difference between the top guys that aren't the champ are much smaller than the difference between Jones and everyone else.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

rabakill said:


> just watch his fights. *Only one guy has ever controlled him in the octagon*, Chael has a likely chance of dominating Evans, Davis, Glover caliber guys purely because his wrestling is so good. Glover vs. Sonnen would be a great fight, the difference between the top guys that aren't the champ are much smaller than the difference between Jones and everyone else.


That statement is quite a ways off.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> One win over a past his prime Shogun is not that impressive at LHW. Davis, Glover and Gus' runs at LHW are impressive and definitely disagree with your statement. These are guys who might have one loss or are unbeaten in their division and I'm not even including a plethora of other LHW's who have much better career records than Sonnen. Then there's fighters like Machida, Evans and even Shogun that have held the actual title and/or defended it compared to Sonnen at LHW who has done nothing of the sort. Aside from his win against Shogun he was Jones easiest defeat by far in this division.
> 
> Sonnen is an average fighter with above average wrestling who also comes with a very average career record. Definitely not a top fighter because he has lost as much as he has won in the UFC, his wins haven't come against top fighters aside from maybe Okami 3 or 4 years ago. He does'nt belong in the same breath as top fighters at MW or LHW and I'm guessing that's why you dodged my question again.


Yet again you dont answer the question thrown at you. This game has run it course. I'm finally bored. Back under your bridge till next time, illogical creature.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

I can't believe y'all have spent the whole day entertaining this kid. 

This you :sarcastic07: 
this is him :happy03:

boomer wins:thumbsup:


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

oldfan said:


> I can't believe y'all have spent the whole day entertaining this kid.
> 
> This you :sarcastic07:
> this is him :happy03:
> ...


Trust me, old chap... my own entertainment is all that matters.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> Trust me, old chap... my own entertainment is all that matters.


then it's win/win:thumbsup:


....you should still bill his mom


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> Yet again you dont answer the question thrown at you. This game has run it course. I'm finally bored. Back under your bridge till next time, illogical creature.


You're not bored, you've just run out of shitty excuses for making crazy statements like Sonnen is a top fighter at LHW.

:laugh:


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> You're not bored, you've just run out of shitty excuses for making crazy statements like Sonnen is a top fighter at LHW.
> 
> :laugh:


Yes yes. I concede. * pats little Jimmy on the head *


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> Yes yes. I concede.


Well you haven't had much from the get go so that's not surprising.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I am still trying to figure out how a guy doesn't have to concede the fact that if Paul Fihlo had made weight Sonnen would have been a world champion especially considering Fihlo was basically the concesus #2 mw in the world at the time. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

BOOM said:


> Sonnen beating Shogun hardly qualifies him as top 5 at LHW. Who else has he beat at LHW?
> 
> Jones
> Gus
> ...


Wernt we talking about Sonnens skill level??? :confused02:

Because Sonnen has done more then enough to prove that he is an elite fighter.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Toxic said:


> I am still trying to figure out how a guy doesn't have to concede the fact that if Paul Fihlo had made weight Sonnen would have been a world champion especially considering Fihlo was basically the concesus #2 mw in the world at the time.


Because we're talking about the UFC and not some bush league. Besides Sonnen lost to Filho and then cried about how he did'nt give up after he squealed to the submission. Even Dana White said it was the correct decision because Sonnen was so blatantly full of it.




SideWays222 said:


> Wernt we talking about Sonnens skill level??? :confused02:
> 
> Because Sonnen has done more then enough to prove that he is an elite fighter.


Sonnen is one of the least accomplished if not the least accomplished fighters at LHW, hardly elite. He's above average at wrestling but still only has an average record at MW on his resume, this alone speaks volumes about what his skill level really is.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

BOOM said:


> Because we're talking about the UFC and not some bush league. Besides Sonnen lost to Filho and then cried about how he did'nt give up after he squealed to the submission. Even Dana White said it was the correct decision because Sonnen was so blatantly full of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


average resume at MW?? in 4 and a half years the only losses the guy has is to the two best fighters in the world in 2 different divisions and 1 of those guys he was 2 min away from beating. At MW he has some of the most dominating wrestling based wins in MMA history and this was when those guys had tons of momentum. One of the few guys to go UP in weight and not down in weight for competition and he just beat Shogun more impressively then any of his previous opponents have and Shogun has been facing some really tough competition and putting up competitive fights.

But he is just middle of the road same as all the guys he is beating left and right.

Okay Boom..... Okay.......


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BOOM said:


> Because we're talking about the UFC and not some bush league. Besides Sonnen lost to Filho and then cried about how he did'nt give up after he squealed to the submission. Even Dana White said it was the correct decision because Sonnen was so blatantly full of it.


Sonnen lost to Filho the first time, clearly one the second fight which should have been for the WEC MW title but Fihlo failed to make weight making it a non title fight. Fihlo actually sent Chael the belt he actually has the physical belt despite never being recognized as the champion. (The real one not like his UFC MW title) And WEC was hardly bush league and the guy he beat was the guy who would have won the 2006 WW GP in pride had the WEC not stole him since the guy he beat in the semi's got reinserted and won the whole thing. Hell he was the first person to ever beat Paul Filho and to be honest because of Fihlo the WEC MW title was probably more meaningful and legitimate than Pride's WW title was.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Toxic said:


> Sonnen lost to Filho the first time, clearly one the second fight which should have been for the WEC MW title but Fihlo failed to make weight making it a non title fight. Fihlo actually sent Chael the belt he actually has the physical belt despite never being recognized as the champion. (The real one not like his UFC MW title) And WEC was hardly bush league and the guy he beat was the guy who would have won the 2006 WW GP in pride had the WEC not stole him since the guy he beat in the semi's got reinserted and won the whole thing. Hell he was the first person to ever beat Paul Filho and to be honest *because of Fihlo the WEC MW title was probably more meaningful and legitimate than Pride's WW title was.*



Filho was left out by the UFC once the WEC was finally swallowed up for good. The WEC was at no point more legitimate than Pride during any era of MMA.




SideWays222 said:


> average resume at MW?? in 4 and a half years the only losses the guy has is to the two best fighters in the world in 2 different divisions and 1 of those guys he was 2 min away from beating. At MW he has some of the most dominating wrestling based wins in MMA history and this was when those guys had tons of momentum. One of the few guys to go UP in weight and not down in weight for competition and he just beat Shogun more impressively then any of his previous opponents have and Shogun has been facing some really tough competition and putting up competitive fights.
> 
> But he is just middle of the road same as all the guys he is beating left and right.
> 
> Okay Boom..... Okay.......



The good old let's leave out Sonnen's record prior to 2009 excuse. Sonnen has dominated nothing if people would take their blinders off for a second. He has lost to Sobral, got choked out by Maia and also lost to Jeremy Horn.

Sonnen has 5 wins and 4 losses in the UFC, not including his fights at LHW which I'm about to get to. At LHW Sonnen has one win over a well past his prime Shogun, a loss against Sobral and another loss in where he was decimated by Jones.

A fighter that has never held a belt in the UFC, is 5-4 at MW and 1-2 at LHW is the very definition of mediocrity, meaning there's nothing elite about Sonnen. A fringe top 10 fighter or gatekeeper is what Sonnen is, and that's even pushing it.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Filho was left out by the UFC once the WEC was finally swallowed up for good. The WEC was at no point more legitimate than Pride during any era of MMA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you're saying Chael is mediocre because he's lost in the past? That's like saying Anderson Silva is mediocre for losing to the guy's he did (okay bad example because his record is a lot better than Chaels) but you get the picture. Chael might not have the best overall record but to disregard his current roll which has lasted 4 years and calling him a gatekeeper is silly imo.

Sent from my GT-S5660 using VerticalSports.Com App


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

BOOM said:


> Filho was left out by the UFC once the WEC was finally swallowed up for good. The WEC was at no point more legitimate than Pride during any era of MMA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You do realize that a fighter evolves??? That a fighter gets better as time goes on??? That a fighter can add new skills to his arsenal and get better at the ones he already has??? That a fighter can figure out how to implement his strengths better?? That a fighter can work on his weaknesses?? And so much more???? 

Thats why generally speaking 5 year old losses are a dumb reason to judge someones skill by. 

If it were up to you we would judge Sonnens very first fight and take that as an indication where he is at today.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Rauno said:


> So you're saying Chael is mediocre because he's lost in the past? That's like saying Anderson Silva is mediocre for losing to the guy's he did (okay bad example because his record is a lot better than Chaels) but you get the picture. Chael might not have the best overall record but to disregard his current roll which has lasted 4 years and calling him a gatekeeper is silly imo.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5660 using VerticalSports.Com App



I agree, comparing Sonnen to a legend like Silva is a terrible example. Silva and his reign will be cemented in the history books while Sonnen will never be in the conversation.


Sonnen's current roll includes 3 losses which have all come recently, so not much of a roll by anyone's standards. He has one win and two losses in his last three fights or 3 wins and 3 losses in his last six fights, again not much of a roll at all. Cherry picking only Sonnen's wins over the last 4 years and ignoring his losses is what's silly.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BOOM said:


> Filho was left out by the UFC once the WEC was finally swallowed up for good. The WEC was at no point more legitimate than Pride during any era of MMA.


 Fihlo was left out when the UFC folded the WEC MW division because he had some substance abuse issues and had just came into a title fight as the champion 7 pounds over weight and was having conversations with his imaginary freind during the fight. Fihlo was in a downward spiral out of control it had little to do with his status in the sport. Was the WEC MW title more legit than the Pride WW title? absolutely considering Dan Henderson never defended the WW title despite the fact he was in the 2006 WW GP losing in the opening round to the eventual winner who had actually lost to Fihlo in the semi finals before getting reinserted when Fihlo left. lineally speaking Fihlo was the Pride WW champion. The 205 and HW divisions may not have been close but Fihlo was more legitimate than anybody Pride had fighting under 205 at the time and its a huge shame how far he spiralled out of control.


----------



## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

BOOM said:


> I agree, comparing Sonnen to a legend like Silva is a terrible example. Silva and his reign will be cemented in the history books while Sonnen will never be in the conversation.
> 
> 
> Sonnen's current roll includes 3 losses which have all come recently, so not much of a roll by anyone's standards. He has one win and two losses in his last three fights or 3 wins and 3 losses in his last six fights, again not much of a roll at all. Cherry picking only Sonnen's wins over the last 4 years and ignoring his losses is what's silly.


But calling him a gatekeeper based on the recent losses is logical? Two of those (3 if you count AS twice) are against Jon Jones and Anderson Silva. 

Sent from my GT-S5660 using VerticalSports.Com App


----------



## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Toxic said:


> Fihlo was left out when the UFC folded the WEC MW division because he had some substance abuse issues and had just came into a title fight as the champion 7 pounds over weight and was having conversations with his imaginary freind during the fight. Fihlo was in a downward spiral out of control it had little to do with his status in the sport. Was the WEC MW title more legit than the Pride WW title? absolutely considering Dan Henderson never defended the WW title despite the fact he was in the 2006 WW GP losing in the opening round to the eventual winner who had actually lost to Fihlo in the semi finals before getting reinserted when Fihlo left. lineally speaking Fihlo was the Pride WW champion. The 205 and HW divisions may not have been close but Fihlo was more legitimate than anybody Pride had fighting under 205 at the time and its a huge shame how far he spiralled out of control.



So Sonnen beat a WEC fighter who got cut because he was on drugs, came in over weight and was also talking to an imaginary pigeon on his shoulder during their second fight. Yet somehow you stated this was a big accomplishment for Sonnen a few posts back and are now even saying that this washed up fighter (Filho) was better and more relevant then a Pride Hendo during his prime. Not sure about anyone else but something isn't adding up.




Rauno said:


> But calling him a gatekeeper based on the recent losses is logical? Two of those (3 if you count AS twice) are against Jon Jones and Anderson Silva.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5660 using VerticalSports.Com App



Losses don't seem to count when it comes to Sonnen but when other fighters lose no one takes issue with it because a loss is a loss. The issue I'm seeing here is Sonnen's losses are some kind of exception to the rule when they shouldn't be.

The bottom line is that Sonnen is on a one fight winning streak and that win was over a past his prime Shogun. He isn't on a roll or any kind of run in recent times as you stated. He's 1-2 at LHW and also has an average record at MW, it's not like this information isn't available for everyone to view at UFC.com, why would you spin it any other way?


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

BOOM said:


> So Sonnen beat a WEC fighter who got cut because he was on drugs, came in over weight and was also talking to an imaginary pigeon on his shoulder during their second fight. Yet somehow you stated this was a big accomplishment for Sonnen a few posts back and are now even saying that this washed up fighter (Filho) was better and more relevant then a Pride Hendo during his prime. Not sure about anyone else but something isn't adding up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Average?

Wins over Nate, Okami, and Bisping is average? Lol

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BOOM said:


> So Sonnen beat a WEC fighter who got cut because he was on drugs, came in over weight and was also talking to an imaginary pigeon on his shoulder during their second fight. Yet somehow you stated this was a big accomplishment for Sonnen a few posts back and are now even saying that this washed up fighter (Filho) was better and more relevant then a Pride Hendo during his prime. Not sure about anyone else but something isn't adding up.


 My point is he should have held a legitimate world title but was robbed of that by Fihlo being a fatty. Am I saying Filho was more relevant than Hendo during Fihlo's prime? Absolutley to compare there entire careers would be absurd as I would argue Dan kept getting better (he would go on to the biggest wins of his career over Vitor, Wandy, Franklin,Shogun, Fedor etc)but during Fihlo's prime he was considered the concensus #2 and by some even considered the #1 MW in the world, some people thought he would smoke Silva at the time. Chael Sonnen would have held a meaningful world title even if the guy he beat for it was having a full mental meltdown.



> Losses don't seem to count when it comes to Sonnen but when other fighters lose no one takes issue with it because a loss is a loss. The issue I'm seeing here is Sonnen's losses are some kind of exception to the rule when they shouldn't be.


 When you lose to the very best in the sport they don't count as much. He beats has beat top guys in both divisions but been unable to beast THE top guy. 


> The bottom line is that Sonnen is on a one fight winning streak and that win was over a past his prime Shogun. He isn't on a roll or any kind of run in recent times as you stated. He's 1-2 at LHW and also has an average record at MW, it's not like this information isn't available for everyone to view at UFC.com, why would you spin it any other way?


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

LL said:


> Average?
> 
> Wins over Nate, Okami, and Bisping is average? Lol



There are loads of fighters at MW with wins of similar quality. I'm sure BOOM can list some of them.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Toxic said:


> My point is he should have held a legitimate world title but was robbed of that by Fihlo being a fatty. Am I saying Filho was more relevant than Hendo during Fihlo's prime? Absolutley to compare there entire careers would be absurd as I would argue Dan kept getting better (he would go on to the biggest wins of his career over Vitor, Wandy, Franklin,Shogun, Fedor etc)but during Fihlo's prime he was considered the concensus #2 and by some even considered the #1 MW in the world, some people thought he would smoke Silva at the time. Chael Sonnen would have held a meaningful world title even if the guy he beat for it was having a full mental meltdown.


Beating a washed up fighter in the WEC does'nt make Sonnen legitimate. Sonnen got subbed by Filho at a time when Filho wasn't washed up for the record.



> When you lose to the very best in the sport they don't count as much. He beats has beat top guys in both divisions but been unable to beast THE top guy.


Sonnen has beat and lost to middle of pack fighters on top of losing to top fighters. Big difference, if you're going to count his wins you have to count his losses just like everyone else, unless you rather keep ignoring his record to convince yourself he's a much better fighter then what he really is.

Shogun is 3-5 in his last 8 fights, who exactly is this top fighter you're speaking of that Sonnen has beat at LHW?




LL said:


> Average?
> 
> Wins over Nate, Okami, and Bisping is average?


Most definitely average considering Sonnen has also lost to Sobral, Horn and Maia. Funny how everyone including yourself keeps leaving his losses out and names off only his wins, this seems to be a common theme around here.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

BOOM said:


> Beating a washed up fighter in the WEC does'nt make Sonnen legitimate. Sonnen got subbed by Filho at a time when Filho wasn't washed up for the record.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It has been four and a half years since he lost a non title fight, meaning he's obviously gotten better since he lost to those guys.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Cowgirl said:


> It has been four and a half years since he lost a non title fight, meaning he's obviously gotten better since he lost to those guys.


Whether or not Sonnen has gotten better is an entirely different discussion up for debate. I can make a lot of average fighters look elite by fudging the numbers and not counting their losses against top fighters. Unfortunately that's not the way it works because all wins and losses count, not just when you want them to.


----------



## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

BOOM said:


> Whether or not Sonnen has gotten better is an entirely different discussion up for debate. I can make a lot of average fighters look elite by fudging the numbers and not counting their losses against top fighters. Unfortunately that's not the way it works because all wins and losses count, not just when you want them to.


Except that he hasn't lost to any top guys that aren't champions in four and a half years and he has beaten consensus top fighters since. Is Anderson not the GOAT since he's lost some fights too?


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Sonnen dominated Marquardt when he was considered a top middleweight, beat Okami who is always near the top of that division, stopped Stann easily, beat Bisping and then subbed Shogun in round #1 looking much better than Gus did. So he lost to Silva and Jones... Is that bad? The only other person to beat Chael since returning to the UFC was Maia.

I'm not a Sonnen fan, but I am also not a blind hater.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

HitOrGetHit said:


> Sonnen dominated Marquardt when he was considered a top middleweight, beat Okami who is always near the top of that division, stopped Stann easily, beat Bisping and then subbed Shogun in round #1 looking much better than Gus did. So he lost to Silva and Jones... Is that bad? The only other person to beat Chael since returning to the UFC was Maia.
> 
> I'm not a Sonnen fan, but I am also not a blind hater.


Exactly. Anyone who wants to dismiss Sonnen as a great fighter, is just allowing emotion to get the better of him. Frankly, he's probably one of the top 10 p4p. If not, certainly top 15. Plus I admire the fact that he takes on anyone. Jones was a nightmare matchup for him, yet he went for it.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Cowgirl said:


> Except that he hasn't lost to any top guys that aren't champions in four and a half years and he has beaten consensus top fighters since. Is Anderson not the GOAT since he's lost some fights too?


Silva is the goat at MW because he's a legend of the sport. There's a huge difference between an elite champion like Silva who had a 17 win fight streak and defended his title for the better part of 7 years to someone like Sonnen. Sonnen has never and will never accomplish anything remotely close to this feat in his lifetime. Using Silva's one loss after his reign in the UFC and trying to show that Sonnen's losses are somewhat comparable is a mockery to MMA.

Without ignoring anything Sonnen has lost three times to top fighters over the last 3 years and has a 3-3 record in that same time span. Sonnen's wins which are Shogun, Bisping and Brian Stann are not top fighters by any stretch of the imagination.




Calminian said:


> Exactly. Anyone who wants to dismiss Sonnen as a great fighter, is just allowing emotion to get the better of him. Frankly, he's probably one of the top 10 p4p. If not, certainly top 15. Plus I admire the fact that he takes on anyone. Jones was a nightmare matchup for him, yet he went for it.


Top 10-15 and great fighter is quite the stretch, let alone including Sonnen in a P4P MMA conversation.


----------



## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

BOOM said:


> Beating a washed up fighter in the WEC does'nt make Sonnen legitimate. Sonnen got subbed by Filho at a time when Filho wasn't washed up for the record.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shogun lost to Babalu, Horn beat Liddell, and Maia fought for the title and is tearing up 170. In the last four years Chael has cemented himself as a top five Middleweight and just beat one of the sports best fighters of all time.

If you wanna bring losses into the equation, lets look at Anderson. Takase, Ryo Chonan? Total cans.

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

LL said:


> Shogun lost to Babalu, Horn beat Liddell, and Maia fought for the title and is tearing up 170. In the last four years Chael has cemented himself as a top five Middleweight and just beat one of the sports best fighters of all time....


And not only is Shogun no slouch on the ground, he was preparing from a grinding grappling match. He literally made it look easy, though I know it wasn't. 

I don't see any middleweights beating him except Silva and Weidman, and I actually think he could pull off the victory against Silva in a 3rd match (which Silva would be dumb to accept). I see him bearing Vitor and W Silva. 

I do think though, he's has some trouble at LHW. Both Machida and Davis are bad matchups for him.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...Chael has had that simple game plan that we've all known for quite some time----Plant you on your ass whenever he wants or perhaps drop you with a solid shot and maul you. He made Shogun look easy. Too easy in my book. I think the Hendo & Gus fights took a lot of steam out of Shogun. I don't think Rua can reinvent himself at this stage in his career. He's a famer for certain. I think Shogun has a little left in the tank. Not enough to regain the title but to finish his career strong.
...Sonnen on the other hand really has nowhere to go at 205. He won't ever take it from Bones but he can make some interesting fights. I'm sure Daniel Cormier would LOVE to get in the cage with Chael Sonnen. I would say that the MW division would be wide open with Weidman being champ but He has to face Anderson once more.....once more.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

LL said:


> Shogun lost to Babalu, Horn beat Liddell, and Maia fought for the title and is tearing up 170. In the last four years Chael has cemented himself as a top five Middleweight and just beat one of the sports best fighters of all time.
> 
> If you wanna bring losses into the equation, lets look at Anderson. Takase, Ryo Chonan? Total cans.


Silva's losses have nothing to do with a mediocre fighter like Sonnen. You're embarrassing yourself.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

BOOM said:


> Silva's losses have nothing to do with a mediocre fighter like Sonnen. You're embarrassing yourself.


It's the same principle as you are using to attempt to discredit Sonnen. 

They both lost to guys who were below average. 
They've only lost to the best since then.

The pendulum swings both ways, my friend.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Cowgirl said:


> It's the same principle as you are using to attempt to discredit Sonnen.
> 
> They both lost to guys who were below average.
> They've only lost to the best since then.
> ...



Sorry but that's just wrong.

Silva's and Sonnen's entire careers tell a much different story about how far apart these two fighters really are. Sonnen has never and will never accomplish anything remotely close to what Silva has done to even be mentioned in the same breath. Down playing one of the greatest fighters ever just so you can lump a middle of the pack fighter like Sonnen in there with a legend like Silva is beyond absurd.


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## Alessia (Sep 1, 2011)

BOOM said:


> Down playing one of the greatest fighters ever just so you can lump a middle of the pack fighter like Sonnen in there with a legend like Silva is beyond absurd.


Trying to down play and dismiss your own logic when it's used against is beyond absurd. Some might even call it hypocritical.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

BOOM said:


> Sorry but that's just wrong.
> 
> Silva's and Sonnen's entire careers tell a much different story about how far apart these two fighters really are. Sonnen has never and will never accomplish anything remotely close to what Silva has done to even be mentioned in the same breath. Down playing one of the greatest fighters ever just so you can lump a middle of the pack fighter like Sonnen in there with a legend like Silva is beyond absurd.


I'm not lumping anyone in with anyone else. I'm making a comparison between two fighters that have similar histories. They lost to cans, and haven't lost to not top guys since.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Cowgirl said:


> I'm not lumping anyone in with anyone else. *I'm making a comparison between two fighters that have similar histories*. They lost to cans, and haven't lost to not top guys since.


Silva's and Sonnen's careers are nothing alike, let alone similar in any way.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Yeah, you're right. Silva is nowhere near Chael's level. Chael's a two time Lineal Middleweight champion. Silva's only won it once. So Chael > Anderson at Middleweight; then at LHW a submission win over Shogun is far superior to wins over James Irvin, Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonnar. 'Nuff said. Chael > Anderson.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Sure, theres an argument that Cheal has done nothing at LHW, but to call him average at MW is feckwitted. Considering he currently has the best recent record at MW outside of Silva and Weidman. If somebody thinks he doest, then instead if talking a load of bollocks, how about actually giving us an example for once? Just one single name. Who are these fighters at MW that are so much better?


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

> "I've been talking all week about how disrespected Chael Sonnen has been by the media in their rankings,They had him ranked No. 8 or 9 at middleweight. They had him ranked under guys who he has beat already. He came out to finish (Mauricio) 'Shogun' (Rua), which does not happen, especially by submission, so hopefully now he'll get the respect he deserves." - Dana White


....I know...Dana isn't a member here with thousands of posts so what the hell does he know? ...still, I enjoy his semi-informed opinion sometimes

Here's an interesting analysis of this exact conversation by Ben Fowlkes from MMA junkie. ....I know it goes on far beyond the attention span of those who would benefit most from reading it, in a nutshell he says it's Chael and the UFC's own fault that small minded haters can't see reality.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

oldfan said:


> ....I know...Dana isn't a member here with thousands of posts so what the hell does he know? ...still, I enjoy his semi-informed opinion sometimes
> 
> Here's an interesting analysis of this exact conversation by Ben Fowlkes from MMA junkie. ....I know it goes on far beyond the attention span of those who would benefit most from reading it, in a nutshell he says it's Chael and the UFC's own fault that small minded haters can't see reality.


Let me guess...

That article had Chael as a top 5 middle weight, which is so ridiculous, Ive concluded its not worth reading the rest.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> Let me guess...
> 
> That article had Chael as a top 5 middle weight, which is so ridiculous, Ive concluded its not worth reading the rest.



:laugh: somebody rep this fool for me


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## H33LHooK (Jul 13, 2011)

oldfan said:


> :laugh: somebody rep this fool for me


LOL. Done.

.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Danm2501 said:


> Yeah, you're right. Silva is nowhere near Chael's level. Chael's a two time Lineal Middleweight champion. Silva's only won it once. So Chael > Anderson at Middleweight; then at LHW a submission win over Shogun is far superior to wins over James Irvin, Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonnar. 'Nuff said. Chael > Anderson.


And then you woke up.




Soojooko said:


> Let me guess...
> 
> That article had Chael as a top 5 middle weight, which is so ridiculous, Ive concluded its not worth reading the rest.


You mean the same article which also states the following,



> What's lost in the murky, muddied waters after all that stomping around is the truth. Sonnen? He can fight a little bit. Whether as a middleweight or a light heavyweight, he's a top-10 fighter in the UFC. He's good, even if he's not the best in either division.



It's no wonder you stopped reading. Top 10 fighters are a dime a dozen and the exact definition of mediocrity.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

BOOM said:


> And then you woke up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think Chael just go under your skin.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Top 10 fighters are a dime a dozen and the exact definition of mediocrity.


:laugh:

Your grasp of the English language and its terms is astoundingly shite.

I'll ask AGAIN... name me the fighters at MW that you consider not mediocre?


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Calminian said:


> I think Chael just go under your skin.


Not in the slightest, I'm just able to look at his and any other fighters entire body of work without bias. I actually like Sonnen when he's being down to earth and not putting on his WWE act which is what a lot of his fans try to mimic on internet forums for brownie points.




Soojooko said:


> Your grasp of the English language and its terms is astoundingly shite.



As usual a lot of potato and not enough meat in your posts which really isn't surprising.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> As usual a lot of potato and not enough meat in your posts which really isn't surprising.


Answer the question.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> Answer the question.


Everything you have asked has been answered in spades over the last 3-4 days within this thread. You might want to catch up on some reading instead of spending all your time playing the forum clown.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Everything you have asked has been answered in spades over the last 3-4 days within this thread. You might want to catch up on some reading instead of spending all your time playing the forum clown.


No. You havent.

Name them.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Not in the slightest, I'm just able to look at his and any other fighters entire body of work without bias......


Trust me you're not succeeding at this. There are fighters I don't like as well. But what I don't want to do is get emotional and try to diminish their worth as a fighter. I can't stand Nick Diaz. But the dude is a great fighter. Your arguments are not making sense even to other chael haters. You need to learn to separate emotion from reason (in all areas not just sports).


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Calminian said:


> Trust me you're not succeeding at this. There are fighters I don't like as well. But what I don't want to do is get emotional and try to diminish their worth as a fighter. I can't stand Nick Diaz. But the dude is a great fighter. Your arguments are not making sense even to other chael haters. * You need to learn to separate emotion from reason* (in all areas not just sports).


You got it backwards, I have no emotional attachment to Sonnen or any fighter. Emotion is something Sonnen fans have always had a hard time separating, which is why most of them blindly believe he is a great fighter and try to compare him to someone who actually is like Anderson Silva. 

Hand selecting or cherry picking only a few of Sonnen's wins from 4 years ago while ignoring his losses and mediocre career record is ignoring reality. And by the way Nick Diaz is not a great fighter, you're using the term much too loosely. There's very few fighters who can be coined great, a decade or more can easily go by before a great fighter comes along. Legitimate great fighters are an extreme rarity in MMA or any sport and is something which Diaz and Sonnen will never be.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

BOOM said:


> You got it backwards, I have no emotional attachment to Sonnen or any fighter. Emotion is something Sonnen fans have always had a hard time separating, which is why most of them blindly believe he is a great fighter and try to compare him to someone who actually is like Anderson Silva.
> 
> Hand selecting or cherry picking only a few of Sonnen's wins from 4 years ago while ignoring his losses and mediocre career record is ignoring reality. And by the way Nick Diaz is not a great fighter, you're using the term much too loosely. There's very few fighters who can be coined great, a decade or more can easily go by before a great fighter comes along. Legitimate great fighters are an extreme rarity in MMA or any sport and is something which Diaz and Sonnen will never be.


Then you should have no problem answering Sooj's question. If you keep refusing to answer, you are simply validating his point.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

BOOM said:


> Silva's losses have nothing to do with a mediocre fighter like Sonnen. You're embarrassing yourself.


How so?

No one is suggesting Chael is gonna go on a run and win a title, he has a loss to Jones and two to Anderson and I don't give him much of a chance against Weidman. But Chael is a top five middleweight and just stopped Shogun in the first and proved he's a top ten light heavyweight. This is not debatable its a fact, he's improved a lot in the last couple of years and he really has stepped it up in the jujitsu department. 

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Cowgirl said:


> Then you should have no problem answering Sooj's question. If you keep refusing to answer, you are simply validating his point.


Ignoring the forum clown does'nt make said clown credible. This information is free of charge.




LL said:


> How so?
> 
> No one is suggesting Chael is gonna go on a run and win a title, he has a loss to Jones and two to Anderson and I don't give him much of a chance against Weidman. But Chael is a top five middleweight and just stopped Shogun in the first and proved he's a top ten light heavyweight. This is not debatable its a fact, he's improved a lot in the last couple of years and he really has stepped it up in the jujitsu department.


One win at LHW over a well past his prime Shogun does not put Sonnen in the top 10 of the division. You sound like one of those Machida fans which have a hard time dealing with reality.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Answer. The. Question.


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## Spite (Jul 7, 2009)

BOOM said:


> It's no wonder you stopped reading. Top 10 fighters are a dime a dozen and the exact definition of mediocrity.


Are you serious? The UFC is the biggest MMA organisation in the world with the best fighters. Just to be able to establish yourself there takes you well above the definition of 'mediocre', never mind being ranked in the top 10.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Spite said:


> Are you serious? The UFC is the biggest MMA organisation in the world with the best fighters. *Just to be able to establish yourself there takes you well above the definition of 'mediocre'*, never mind being ranked in the top 10.


Hardly, if only it was that simple.

Using your logic Fabio Maldonado must be a top fighter just because he fights in the UFC, right? Only in reality he's a can like many others who fight or have fought in the UFC.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

*sigh*

Oh well...


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Hardly, if only it was that simple.
> 
> Using your logic Fabio Maldonado must be a top fighter just because he fights in the UFC, right? Only in reality he's a can like many others who fight or have fought in the UFC.


He isn't at the top, but he also isn't mediocre when you look at all of the fighters out there. He may be mediocre by UFC standards, but not in the grand scheme of things.


Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## Spite (Jul 7, 2009)

HitOrGetHit said:


> He isn't at the top, but he also isn't mediocre when you look at all of the fighters out there. He may be mediocre by UFC standards, but not in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com App


Thanks,

Thats exactly the point I'm making!


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

HitOrGetHit said:


> He isn't at the top, but he also isn't mediocre when you look at all of the fighters out there. He may be mediocre by UFC standards, but not in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com App


If he was mediocre, by UFC standards, then there should be at least 7 or 8 fighters ( out of 63 ) at MW with better records. However, nobody seems to be able to tell me who they are. Can you? :confused02:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Face it y'all boomer has won this argument. 
They are all mediocre fighters except for Anderson. Anderson is the GOAT and he has proven his greatness by.....
beating mediocre fighters.

anyone who thinks they can change boomboys mind should take on the tea party next.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

oldfan said:


> Face it y'all boomer has won this argument.
> They are all mediocre fighters except for Anderson. Anderson is the GOAT and he has proven his greatness by.....
> beating mediocre fighters.
> 
> anyone who thinks they can change boomboys mind should take on the tea party next.


But... didn't Anderson just lose to a mediocre fighter?


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> But... didn't Anderson just lose to a mediocre fighter?


you still don't get it. When I have deemed a fighter GREAT then his legacy cannot be tarnished by unimpressive wins or even losses to fighters that I have deemed mediocre. I need no facts for this. It is my belief and to challenge that is to challenge everything I stand for as a GREAT AMERICAN.

You obviously hate America


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

oldfan said:


> You obviously hate America


A mediocre country if I ever saw one...


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

lol everyone chill and just shut the **** up


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

All I have to say is


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

Man this is one of the best trolls I have seen in a while on these forums. Or at least I assume he is trolling for fun...


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Soojooko said:


> If he was mediocre, by UFC standards, then there should be at least 7 or 8 fighters ( out of 63 ) at MW with better records. However, nobody seems to be able to tell me who they are. Can you? :confused02:


Not Chael. I was responding to his example of Fabio.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

HitOrGetHit said:


> He isn't at the top, but he also isn't mediocre when you look at all of the fighters out there. He may be mediocre by UFC standards, but not in the grand scheme of things.


Fabio at minimum is as least as great as Sonnen, they both have an incredible one fight winning streak at LHW and both have also beaten other top fighters in the UFC because all fighters in the UFC are top fighters by default just because they fight in the UFC. 

If we take it another step further because we have to be completely fair to Fabio we must apply some more Sonnen logic to Fabio's recent losses and pretend they never happened, Fabio is now unbeaten in 3 years in the UFC. Quite an outstanding feat, clearly Fabio is giving can crushers like Jonny Bones and Anderson "Matrix" Silva a run for their money.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Fabio at minimum is as least as great as Sonnen, they both have an incredible one fight winning streak at LHW and both have also beaten other top fighters in the UFC because all fighters in the UFC are top fighters by default just because they fight in the UFC.
> 
> If we take it another step further because we have to be completely fair to Fabio we must apply some more Sonnen logic to Fabio's recent losses and pretend they never happened, Fabio is now unbeaten in 3 years in the UFC. Quite an outstanding feat, clearly Fabio is giving can crushers like Jonny Bones and Anderson "Matrix" Silva a run for their money.


Are you basically saying that Fabio would give Sonnen a competitive fight?


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> Are you basically saying that Fabio would give Sonnen a competitive fight?


No I'm saying Fabio is the real P4P MMA goat as I have already proven in my prior post. Sonnen would fake an injury on the eve of their fight if the UFC decided to feed Sonnen to an elite legend like Fabio Maldonado.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> No I'm saying Fabio is the real P4P MMA goat as I have already proven in my prior post. Sonnen would fake an injury on the eve of their fight if the UFC decided to feed Sonnen to an elite legend like Fabio Maldonado.


Oh, don't start being silly now. You was far more entertaining with your "I'm being serious" cap on. :hug:


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> Oh, don't start being silly now. You was far more entertaining with your "I'm being serious" cap on. :hug:


No idea what you're going on about chap, I've never stopped being serious from the start. 

If you can't handle Fabio "P4P Goat" Maldonado being a million times better than Chael "The Great" Sonnen you're going to have to prove it.


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## AJClark (Sep 19, 2010)

BOOM said:


> No idea what you're going on about chap, I've never stopped being serious from the start.
> 
> If you can't handle Fabio "P4P Goat" Maldonado being a million times better than Chael "The Great" Sonnen you're going to have to prove it.



In the last 3 years...

Maldonado












Sonnen













Done


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

AJClark said:


> In the last 3 years...
> 
> Maldonado
> 
> ...



Both fighters are unbeaten because losses don't count, so that's 6 wins for Fabio vs 4 wins for Sonnen according to your charts. Therefore Fabio is a legend and Sonnen is still on the outside looking up.

Done.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Maldonado beat Roger Hollet, who almost beat Matt Hammill, sorta. I see no reason to doubt Maldonado would be a tough match up for Bones or even Cain.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Ape City said:


> Maldonado beat Roger Hollet, who almost beat Matt Hammill, sorta. I see no reason to doubt Maldonado would be a tough match up for Bones or even Cain.


Fabio "P4P Goat" Maldonado KTFO an elite James "The Hammer" McSweeney. It would be best for Jones and Cain to forfeit their belts out of respect before Fabio unleashes his fury on them.


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## AJClark (Sep 19, 2010)

BOOM said:


> Fabio "P4P Goat" Maldonado KTFO an elite James "The Hammer" McSweeney. It would be best for Jones and Cain to forfeit their belts out of respect before Fabio unleashes his fury on them.


I honestly don't get what you're doing or getting at at this point lol.

Can I ask you to explain, please? As an adult human, could you please explain?


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

AJClark said:


> I honestly don't get what you're doing or getting at at this point lol.
> 
> Can I ask you to explain, please? As an adult human, could you please explain?


I'm being fair to a fighter which in this case happens to be Fabio Maldonado and using the Sonnen logic that others have been applying to Sonnen over the last few days. Pretty straight forward.


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## AJClark (Sep 19, 2010)

BOOM said:


> I'm being fair to a fighter which in this case happens to be Fabio Maldonado and using the Sonnen logic that others have been applying to Sonnen over the last few days. Pretty straight forward.


Could you clarify a little more please, I'm genuinely interested. Only answer if you're actually going to answer though, if that's okay?


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

AJClark said:


> Could you clarify a little more please, I'm genuinely interested. Only answer if you're actually going to answer though, if that's okay?


Sure, feel free to read over the entire thread pertaining to the logic being used if you're genuinely interested to how it arrived here.


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## AJClark (Sep 19, 2010)

BOOM said:


> Sure, feel free to read over the entire thread pertaining to the logic being used if you're genuinely interested how it arrived here.


I've read it. You shouldn't have answered. 

Last question. In your last 10 posts or so have you been at all serious?


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

AJClark said:


> I've read it. You shouldn't have answered.
> 
> Last question. In your last 10 posts or so have you been at all serious?


I've been serious right from the start to the very end, like everyone else has.


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## AJClark (Sep 19, 2010)

BOOM said:


> I've been serious right from the start to the very end, like everyone else has.


My apologies, actual last question. Name all the MWs you rank higher than Sonnen, if it please ya.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

AJClark said:


> My apologies, actual last question. Name all the MWs you rank higher than Sonnen, if it please ya.


He's a middle of the pack MW and not even a fringe top 10 LHW, kind of weird you're asking this because you should have known already considering you just stated you read the entire thread. For some reason I don't believe you actually did.


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## AJClark (Sep 19, 2010)

BOOM said:


> He's a middle of the pack MW and not even a fringe top 10 LHW, kind of weird you're asking this because you should have known already considering you just stated you read the entire thread. For some reason I don't believe you actually did.


...and yet, somewhat ironically, you didn't read my question.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Fun fact y'all. When a troll with a red bar gives you neg rep you actually gain a couple points. :laugh:


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

AJClark said:


> ...and yet, somewhat ironically, you didn't read my question.


That's because I play the game better than you can.




oldfan said:


> Fun fact y'all. When a troll with a red bar gives you neg rep you actually gain a couple points. :laugh:


A green bar, red bar or any kind of reputation system is to keep the dumb kids at bay on internet forums who aren't bright enough to realize it really does'nt mean anything in the first place. I'll let you read over your post and figure out the rest.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BOOM said:


> A green bar, red bar or any kind of reputation system is to keep the dumb kids at bay on internet forums who aren't bright enough to realize it really does'nt mean anything in the first place. I'll let you read over your post and figure out the rest.


And yet you use the rep system. Why bother?


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Soojooko said:


> And yet you use the rep system. Why bother?


This is about you being upset that I haven't given you any reputation, yet all you had to do was ask nicely instead of leaving me one liner cuss words in my comment field.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

All right guys, get it back on topic.

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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