# Best For Self Defense



## Obliterate (Dec 31, 2006)

HI All

Im a huge MMA fan and want to start getting into training (mainly for fitness and self Defense, dont want to get my head smashed in for a living.

While i was on youtube i came across this video:

YouTube - jkd

I was just interested to know which u thought was better for real life situations, JKD or a mixture of boxing, BJJ etc etc.

Also why is it that JKD has never been sucessful in something like UFC or pride? Are the moves shown in the video not going to work in real life situations?

Many thanks all!


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## Trainee (Nov 18, 2006)

Hey, man, I'm in the same position as you. If you look up some of my threads, that's all I'm interested in - Fitness and Defense.
But yeah, I'd stick to a combination of boxing, jiu-jitsu, muay thai, and krav maga. I take the first three (new to them though), and will start on Krav Maga after I get better at the other three. 
And I don't know much about JKD, but from the videos I've seen, I don't think it's too great. Also, I think it's more of a concept than a style. So if you take multiple arts, you're basically practicing JKD. :-\

Good luck in your training.


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## Zapatista (Dec 4, 2006)

Trainee said:


> Hey, man, I'm in the same position as you. If you look up some of my threads, that's all I'm interested in - Fitness and Defense.
> But yeah, I'd stick to a combination of boxing, jiu-jitsu, muay thai, and krav maga. I take the first three (new to them though), and will start on Krav Maga after I get better at the other three.
> And I don't know much about JKD, but from the videos I've seen, I don't think it's too great. Also, I think it's more of a concept than a style. So if you take multiple arts, you're basically practicing JKD. :-\
> 
> Good luck in your training.


JKD isn't just taking from multiple arts (that is what Mixed Martial Arts is), it was specific moves that Bruce Lee took from different martial arts and combined into his one system. 

If you're looking for just fitness and self-defense, I'd suggest something along the lines of Hapkido and possibly Krav Maga, but definitely not boxing. Boxing (and to some extent Western Kickboxing) are horrible, in my opinion, for self-defense since for boxing you are taught to keep your hands up and protect your head with your hands (which have huge gloves on them), but when you're in the real world it is very hard to protect your head when you are bare-fisted. BJJ is always a good option too.

The reason I say that you should try out Hapkido is this: it covers strikes (both kicks and punches) and blocks. It also covers throws and some joint manipulations (especially small joint manipulations). So basically, if you have a good teacher, you can go to one place to train for your self-defense art which saves money. If you want to do boxing and BJJ (which doesn't make much sense to me if you don't want to compete in MMA) then you have to pay on average twice as much and travel to (possibly) two different places to train, which eats up time.


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## Assassin (Dec 31, 2006)

You should into krav maga!!!


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## brooks211 (Dec 31, 2006)

Krav Maga is a completely modern martial art (it was developed by the Israeli army), and was designed to be as effective as possible in a street fight (so it focuses a lot on moves that are illegal in MMA competition, like groin strikes and headbutting), and also intended to be effective even with minimal training. It includes moves to deal with armed attackers. It is brutally efficient, and that's what I would recommend if you're only interested in self-defense. 

Go for a mixture of boxing and BJJ if you want to be able to spar more and possibly compete. A few months of MMA will be adequate for basic self-defense, and you'll have the opportunity to participate in the sport of MMA.

There are MMA gyms that offer classes in a variety of different styles (the one I've been going to recently is kick boxing, BJJ and Judo), usually for a monthly fee (which is usually around $100-200. While that's not cheap by any means, it's a great workout and you'll have a great time, not to mention learn some pretty cool stuff.


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## GroundAndPound (Dec 31, 2006)

some will, depends. Its not gonna be that easy to get your opponent down though.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

krav is good but it doesnt hold the anything go's attitude that JKD does.
This place I know of teaches krav muytai jui jitsu and kick boxing. Krave is not as phisical as the others they dont do much sparing like you saw in the movie.
My opinion JKD is the best in self defence


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

GroundAndPound said:


> some will, depends. Its not gonna be that easy to get your opponent down though.


yha it takes a while before you get that good.


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## CashKola (Jul 7, 2006)

The best for self defense? 

I am going to have to go with the old Colt 45 and a CCW. :thumbsup:


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

CashKola said:


> The best for self defense?
> 
> I am going to have to go with the old Colt 45 and a CCW. :thumbsup:


lol thats true. When a gun comes out Crouching Tiger turns in to Craping Monkey. But for hand to hand combat its the best style.


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## Trainee (Nov 18, 2006)

> JKD isn't just taking from multiple arts (that is what Mixed Martial Arts is), it was specific moves that Bruce Lee took from different martial arts and combined into his one system.


Oh, sorry. I said I didn't know much about it, lol.
I read up on JKD a little bit, and it's a little wierd. It doesn't seem like a style, really. Each individual practitioner can add his own thing to his fighting style, and can adapt at will. No Katas, just all out sparring. It doesn't really seem like a style, just a self-defense class where you can do whatever's necessary to survive. The idea is really good, but how much can one person accomplish, you know? One practitioner might stress more on stand-up fighting, while another might be mostly ground. It's wierd. And if you try evening it out, you won't really be a good fighter until you practice for a very long time. Dunno, I might be wrong, just my thoughts. Don't kill me for them. XD


> Go for a mixture of boxing and BJJ if you want to be able to spar more and possibly compete. A few months of MMA will be adequate for basic self-defense, and you'll have the opportunity to participate in the sport of MMA.


Yeah, except I would replace boxing with Muay Thai. To get some kicking in there...just in case. You really don't use many kicks in real street defense...and I don't mean you can't use them against some punk that messed with you at school, lol. I mean like when you're confronted by a dude you've never seen before, or if you step on someone's foot in a party. 

Good luck. 

P.S. I'm new to this stuff, too. So everything I've posted so far might be completely wrong. However, I think that's the right way to go...it goes well with everything I've ever read or everything anyone's ever told me.


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## Zapatista (Dec 4, 2006)

Trainee said:


> Yeah, except I would replace boxing with Muay Thai. To get some kicking in there...just in case. You really don't use many kicks in real street defense...and I don't mean you can't use them against some punk that messed with you at school, lol. I mean like when you're confronted by a dude you've never seen before, or if you step on someone's foot in a party.


Muay Thai teaches more than just kicks and punches though, it teaches the clinch (which is extremely important in MMA). If you learn that through Muay Thai (instead of Judo, they take different philosophies on it) then if you were in the situation like you mentioned and you couldn't use a kick you could always get into a clinch and then knee the hell out of the person. If you're going against somebody completely oblivious to martial arts (especially anything with a clinch such as MMA, Kyokushin Karate, Muay Thai, etc.) then you should be able to get some knees to the head and end the fight early. If the person knows what to do, you should be able to get some knees to the gut of the person and then work from there.


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## Fang (Jan 4, 2007)

CashKola said:


> The best for self defense?
> 
> I am going to have to go with the old Colt 45 and a CCW. :thumbsup:


Haha, that's one way to go, on a more legal standpoint get a tazer, those are lots of fun.


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## kishiro (Dec 28, 2006)

Fang said:


> Haha, that's one way to go, on a more legal standpoint get a tazer, those are lots of fun.


if you carry, and pull something out, to use a tazer is the worst thing in the world, you must wait for them to come within your 25 ft range, then if you miss your ****ed, "the slowest time recorded at the 2006 combine was 5.41 seconds by offensive lineman Josh Hall" this is the slowest time for the 40, done by a 300lbs man, that ran 4.8 times farther than the range of your tazer.... one shot you think you can reload that fast, what if there is more that one target????


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## Fang (Jan 4, 2007)

Well, it's fun if you DO hit. Lol.


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

I wouldnt do any grappeling art for self defense and this is coming from a grappler ... 

Alot of people make the mistake of going BJJ for self defense but as I posted in another thread all of these grappeling martial arts are assuming that your only dealing with one attacker. To deal with multiple attackers in a grappeling situation you need to be very skilled and very conditioned. Ive done 2 person drills before in judo and jj. They wear you out five times faster then rolling with some one.

Thats how I used to prepare for tournaments. The problem is this in a real life situation if your fighting with one person on the ground their freind isnt going to say ok its a fair fight. If your fighting some one chances are they were looking for it and if they are that type of person most likely their freinds are too. So if you get some one in the mount and you go for a submition the freind will beat the crap out of you.

Also alot of people dont have that killer instinct that you need for street grappeling. people will put a person in the arm bar but they wont put forth the pressure it takes to finish the arm shoulder ankle or what ever your attacking with the exception of chokes.

in a street situation you want to stay on your feet so you always have the run away option if things get to dicey.

your best bet is some dirty style of fighting like krav maga . You have to keep in mind that the average person doesnt know shit about fighting or martial arts. So forms like krav maga will train you in 4 months to be able to take out most people on the street because most people dont know crap about strikes or defending.

So if you can cover decently and throw a couple of strikes decently you will devestate normal people


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## kishiro (Dec 28, 2006)

mrmyz said:


> I wouldnt do any grappeling art for self defense and this is coming from a grappler ...
> 
> Alot of people make the mistake of going BJJ for self defense but as I posted in another thread all of these grappeling martial arts are assuming that your only dealing with one attacker. To deal with multiple attackers in a grappeling situation you need to be very skilled and very conditioned. Ive done 2 person drills before in judo and jj. They wear you out five times faster then rolling with some one.
> 
> ...


i too am a grapple judo/bjj, but with a touch of boxing, due to sport jujitsu. pulling guard is a very bad idea. i keep almost all street fights on my feet, i will pound it out, then i will grab and grip fight, releasing to punch, arm drag you into a knee, and if i throw i will grip my hands around you. as for more than one attacker i would try to find an exit, keeping out of the circle would be my main tactic. most that attack in groups are done by scared, weak people.

your main weapon in any fight is the ability to stay calm and think.
"get back to the car... pop the trunk... even the odds!!!"


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## KillerG (Nov 14, 2006)

Street fight?
Kick to the nuts, strike to the throat, aim to break something, then make a swift exit.

If Bas Rutten says to kick to the nuts, then IMO thats a manly way to win, if you disagree talk to Bas, i dare you.


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## Zapatista (Dec 4, 2006)

I think it all depends on where you are. If you're in a crowded area I think (for legal reasons) grappling is better. If you're alone with the person in a dark alley, then standing up is the way to go.

The reason I think grappling is better in situations with more people around is simple, if people can identify then there can be criminal charges against you. If you stand and strike with an attacker, you may get "caught in the moment" or for whatever reason take it a step to far and throw a punch or kick that was "unneccesary" in your defense. Now with a crowd as a witness the attacker can go ahead and get assualt charges on you and you get screwed (it's happened before). If you grapple, you either choke the attacker into unconciousness and get away or you break the limb (or small joints if you're used to non-sport grappling) and you make your get away. All your doing is disabling the attacker from being able to do more damage to you. You aren't taking it too far. The problem comes like mrmyz said, the non "killer instinct" and not extending to break the limb/tendon in your submissions.


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## Hollywood6655 (Jan 7, 2007)

Easy answer.......just drop down to one knee.....everyone knows that


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## WouldLuv2FightU (Jul 17, 2006)

Hollywood6655 said:


> Easy answer.......just drop down to one knee.....everyone knows that


LOL 

I went to a school that taught a bunch of different self defense techniques all in one class. I did it for nine years. They called it Tae Kwon Do but it was so much more. We had kickboxing, judo, Hapkido, JKD also. The TKD was the least effective in a street fight. The only thing TKD helps you with is it teaches you the correct way to punch and kick so that it causes a lot of damage no matter how small or weak you are. It also helps with reflexes but so does every other MA. I found that the Hapkido and JKD were the most effective in street fights. After 9 years of that stuff I can anticipate a punch before it comes and I have fast enough reflexes to deflect it and submit the opponent right away using joint manipulation much like the guy in the video. He is a little better than me though  . All that stuff you saw in the video does work very well in street fights, I know from experience. I have been in 3 street fights and all 3 of them ended withing the first 2 minutes because I had my opponent's arms or wrists in a position to where I could break them if I wanted. One guy said "ok ok I give up dude" so I let him go, then he threw a punch at me again when my guard was down. I deflected it just like I did the first time (which is how I know I have good reflexes) and flipped him over my shoulder and when he landed he was already in a position to get his arm broken. I am 5'8'' and like 140 lbs and this guy was at least 6 foot and at least 190 pounds. I didn't think I was gonna execute the throw correctly at first, cuz I have never used it in a street fight before, but it worked out good for me and I gave his arm a good crank and punched him in the nose. He was the only guy I have ever had the chance to get a punch in on in a street fight. All the others were over basically as soon as they took a swing at me. I credit all my MA training to those 3 successful and quick street fights.


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## Onganju (May 26, 2006)

Best for Self-Defense? Short of a firearm, a can of pepper spray backed up with a folding baton. After you practice CQC tactics, start doing 2 mile runs for time, because you will want to know how to get the hell out of the situation. In fact, if you drive, install a remote starter and power locks. That'll help you get out of there even faster.

Aside from that, learn how to actively avoid bad situations. Common sense goes a long way in prolonging one's life.


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## asskicker (Aug 27, 2006)

Onganju said:


> Best for Self-Defense? Short of a firearm, a can of pepper spray backed up with a folding baton. After you practice CQC tactics, start doing 2 mile runs for time, because you will want to know how to get the hell out of the situation. In fact, if you drive, install a remote starter and power locks. That'll help you get out of there even faster.
> 
> Aside from that, learn how to actively avoid bad situations. Common sense goes a long way in prolonging one's life.


Once again playing the forum mom.:laugh: jk Onganju


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## JawShattera (Nov 1, 2006)

best for self defence just hurt there weak spot, there testicals!

just stick your hand down their pants, grab there nuts and sqeeze till they explode. its actually pretty easy to stick your hand down someones pants in a real fight and once you have there nuts its over.


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## Onganju (May 26, 2006)

asskicker said:


> Once again playing the forum mom.:laugh: jk Onganju


Hey! Nobody's paying me to lie here.


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## Heggi (Nov 6, 2006)

Zapatista said:


> I think it all depends on where you are. If you're in a crowded area I think (for legal reasons) grappling is better. If you're alone with the person in a dark alley, then standing up is the way to go.
> 
> The reason I think grappling is better in situations with more people around is simple, if people can identify then there can be criminal charges against you. If you stand and strike with an attacker, you may get "caught in the moment" or for whatever reason take it a step to far and throw a punch or kick that was "unneccesary" in your defense. Now with a crowd as a witness the attacker can go ahead and get assualt charges on you and you get screwed (it's happened before). If you grapple, you either choke the attacker into unconciousness and get away or you break the limb (or small joints if you're used to non-sport grappling) and you make your get away. All your doing is disabling the attacker from being able to do more damage to you. You aren't taking it too far. The problem comes like mrmyz said, the non "killer instinct" and not extending to break the limb/tendon in your submissions.


Ok.. lets say the fight goes to the ground, and the other guy is on top of you, you go for a submission..
What do you think hes friends will do when they see you choke him out?
they will most likely stomp you in the head over and over again.. well then your ****ed


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## Zapatista (Dec 4, 2006)

Heggi said:


> Ok.. lets say the fight goes to the ground, and the other guy is on top of you, you go for a submission..
> What do you think hes friends will do when they see you choke him out?
> they will most likely stomp you in the head over and over again.. well then your ****ed


I'd try to defend the grappling side of self-defense more but I really can't for two reasons: 1.) I haven't trained in it and have never been in a fight where I've used it and 2.) until recently I was like you and didn't think grappling was the way to go but people on a message board convinced me (but they banned me from the message board because of my political stance) so I can't get any more ideas from them.

I think that grappling has it benefits in self-defense (and so does striking) so it isn't a black and white thing where only striking works or only grappling work, which is why I suggested the original poster take Hapkido because they teach some grappling and joint manipulations along with chokes, throws and striking.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Krav is excellent for self defense very brutal has no other applications then doing serios damage to some with as little effort as possile.. if you are looking for strict self defense do the Krav 1st then add something else to it if you want "More style" 
As for JKD.. it is very hard to find real JKD teachers and places for teh simple fact bruce only allowed very few select people to teach it and they all had the understanding.. IT WAS NOT COMPLETE. Brue Lee the ever perfectionist was constantly changing and adapting what he knew to make it more effiecent and effective. JKD was designed to be quick and effective in a REAL fight.. it was never intented to be used in competitions hence not many JKD people do well in Martial arts competitions including MMA, though the mental aspects of JKD such as learing on to think on your feet and change instantly with the situation are very good.. as stated.. not many qualified experts out there to teach it.. regardless of what the shingle on the door says.. TO give you an Idea.. Kareem Abdual, Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace all trained with Bruce.. among other big names.. None walking around claiming to be able to teach it because they all knew bruce was not done with it.. There was still alot to go.. but if you do find one of the few qualified people, it is a good art to take.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

And can anyone see the pictures in my signature or is it just me not beain able to see them?????


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## Trainee (Nov 18, 2006)

> And can anyone see the pictures in my signature or is it just me not beain able to see them?????


Lol dude, you're supposed to put IMG tags around the link.


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## TheZar (Sep 23, 2006)

best for self defense? i would personally say a combination of eskrima/arnis/kali (to learn how to deal with weaponry like knives) in combination with boxing and some basic grapping would do you well...

best self defense though is to try and avoid such situations...

since we're talking about self defense however, i think you should take a look at this vid  (ppl have probably seen this before, but i dont care) :

YouTube - Bas Rutten Street Self Defense


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## Onganju (May 26, 2006)

The Don said:


> And can anyone see the pictures in my signature or is it just me not beain able to see them?????


Actually... Unless your a paying member, you aren't allowed pics in your sig.


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## Crocopride (Oct 16, 2006)

TheZar said:


> best for self defense? i would personally say a combination of eskrima/arnis/kali (to learn how to deal with weaponry like knives) in combination with boxing and some basic grapping would do you well...
> 
> best self defense though is to try and avoid such situations...
> 
> ...



Right away you say "I'm Sorry" bang..bang..bang.."NO I'M NOT!


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

I'd go with a JKD, BJJ and Kickboxing/Muay Thai mix. Kickboxing is very good for building power, speed and devastating striking power, provided you adapt the high hand stance and angles a little to account for the lack of gloves and the possibility of groin attacks. Muay Thai will get you the devastating knees and elbows. BJJ is for up close and takedown situations, although in general you wanna stay off the ground in streetfights. And JKD combines a lot of the others with some very effective locks, punches and traps, extremely effective in a streetfight. I've trained for a while in all of the above and have had to test them on the street more than once.
If you really want to push the barrier, train in Kali for knives.. nothing is more dangerous up close than a knife and someone who knows how to use it. Of course, it might be worse if you end up stabbing somebody rather than take a beating but in a life-or-death situation the knife skills are handy.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Trainee said:


> Lol dude, you're supposed to put IMG tags around the link.


Hmm ok .. Umm thanks ... THey used to show up I'll try that..


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## CashKola (Jul 7, 2006)

The Don said:


> Hmm ok .. Umm thanks ... THey used to show up I'll try that..


You have to pay for a year long, or lifetime membership to get pictures in your signature; or be a mod.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

yea I got that.. thanks though... I used to be a mod back in the day when the site had few people.. it has grown alot... Heck I was the first person to reach the 1,000 post mark.. now I see people with 2,000 plus this site is exploding... I was just glad to help move it along in its early days..


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## Zapatista (Dec 4, 2006)

Another art that I'd love to learn (but it may be hard to find depending on where you live) is Systema. It's a Russian martial art (similar to Krav Maga, but according to the Russians, it is much, much older and has roots hundreds of years ago). It can be devestating, but like I said, it can be hard to find a place that teaches it.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Zapatista said:


> Another art that I'd love to learn (but it may be hard to find depending on where you live) is Systema. It's a Russian martial art (similar to Krav Maga, but according to the Russians, it is much, much older and has roots hundreds of years ago). It can be devestating, but like I said, it can be hard to find a place that teaches it.


The Systema is awesome. It is one of the most effective scientific martial arts ever made.. deadly. Krav Maga is child's play in comparison; I was never very impressed by Krav Maga.. It seems they mostly stress on unrealistic disarms performed on unmoving, unreacting opponents that just stand and let it happen. There is never any sparring, no real test for it. Real situations are much more dynamic than the scenarios in those training exercises depict.


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## CashKola (Jul 7, 2006)

The Don said:


> yea I got that.. thanks though... I used to be a mod back in the day when the site had few people.. it has grown alot... Heck I was the first person to reach the 1,000 post mark.. now I see people with 2,000 plus this site is exploding... I was just glad to help move it along in its early days..


Ya I remember when I came here you, moldy, and ironman posted all the time, there is a lot more people now.

As for self defense if you are really worried about knives and guns I wouldn't even bother with martial arts. If you are over 18 and have a clean record get a CCW and a gun, if you are under 18 just carry a knife, most states let you carry one if the blade is under a certain length or if you can see it or something like that. 

Now if I guy attacks you and it does not warrant a gun or knife the I would just train in boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai (one of the three), and if you want Judo. I would pick Judo because in a street fight if it does go to the ground you are not going to be fighting against one of the Gracies, and you will not likely be on the ground for long so you would only need basic Jiu-Jitsu, which you will learn in Judo. There is no reason to go too far in depth with Jiu-Jitsu if your just using it for self defense. Also Judo has great throws that can do some real damage on concrete, and if you throw a guy real nice and his head lands right on the concrete I could see him giving up pretty fast.


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## Zapatista (Dec 4, 2006)

I've been thinking about this and while boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai is good for striking, I think people should learn at least basic blocking techniques from traditional martial arts (or at least train in boxing/kickboxing/muay thai MMA style with no gloves). The reason being this, in boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai matches you have big gloves to help defend your head and you can use that to your advantage but when you get into a fight outside the ring (similar to a MMA situation) you won't have your gloves and it becomes harder to block shots to the head. A lot of the traditional martial arts work on blocks and are taught without gloves, so you could work on your defense that way. Keeping that in mind, Kyokushin Karate is very similar to Muay Thai (with the exception of no gloves and no fist strikes to the head, but there are kicks) and it is full-contact karate. They work on the clinch and use knees too, so you get everything you would get from Muay Thai but you don't have to worry about adapting from gloves.


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## Mr. Bungle (Oct 17, 2006)

Zapatista said:


> JKD isn't just taking from multiple arts (that is what Mixed Martial Arts is), it was specific moves that Bruce Lee took from different martial arts and combined into his one system.
> 
> If you're looking for just fitness and self-defense, I'd suggest something along the lines of Hapkido and possibly Krav Maga, but definitely not boxing. Boxing (and to some extent Western Kickboxing) are horrible, in my opinion, for self-defense since for boxing you are taught to keep your hands up and protect your head with your hands (which have huge gloves on them), but when you're in the real world it is very hard to protect your head when you are bare-fisted. BJJ is always a good option too.
> 
> The reason I say that you should try out Hapkido is this: it covers strikes (both kicks and punches) and blocks. It also covers throws and some joint manipulations (especially small joint manipulations). So basically, if you have a good teacher, you can go to one place to train for your self-defense art which saves money. If you want to do boxing and BJJ (which doesn't make much sense to me if you don't want to compete in MMA) then you have to pay on average twice as much and travel to (possibly) two different places to train, which eats up time.



Okay first off Hapkido is totally gay and completely useless in real life situations and secondly if you're not intelligent enough to know that having solid boxing skills is one of the best forms of self defence and an absolute must in MMA then you should log off permanently and cram your keyboard up your ass. And you certainly shouldn't be giving anybody any advice.

Douche-bag.


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## Zapatista (Dec 4, 2006)

Mr. Bungle said:


> Okay first off Hapkido is totally gay and completely useless in real life situations and secondly if you're not intelligent enough to know that having solid boxing skills is one of the best forms of self defence and an absolute must in MMA then you should log off permanently and cram your keyboard up your ass. And you certainly shouldn't be giving anybody any advice.
> 
> Douche-bag.


When did I say boxing wasn't good for MMA? I simply said training in boxing and BJJ together isn't necessary if you're not planning on competing because there are arts out there that teach sufficient enough to be able to defend on the ground and stand up. Since we are talking strictly self-defense here, there are more options than just boxing that can work for a person. Arts such as Kenpo or Kyokushin Karate can work just as well as boxing or kickboxing in defending oneself. Remember, most people aren't trained in fighting so you don't have to be a black belt to successfully defend yourself (unlike in MMA).


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

While box is great for defense it is limited mainly to punching defense while what Zap said was there are other arts, more tradational ones that not only have great punching defense but have more defensive options in regards to takes downs kicks and such. 

At least that is what I got out of what he said. My opinion on that kinda matchs right upI've studided a little boxing plus a whole slew of tradational arts, all I really got out of boxing was a bit more emphisis on avoiding punches to the fac it was things I already knew. just stressed more, as a punch was all a boxer needs to worry about. I am am more along the lines that more can be learned from a solid Tradational MA when it comes to defense that would carry over more to MMA, Like Tang Soo Do, or ishnryu or some such hard form.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Zapatista said:


> When did I say boxing wasn't good for MMA? I simply said training in boxing and BJJ together isn't necessary if you're not planning on competing because there are arts out there that teach sufficient enough to be able to defend on the ground and stand up. Since we are talking strictly self-defense here, there are more options than just boxing that can work for a person. Arts such as Kenpo or Kyokushin Karate can work just as well as boxing or kickboxing in defending oneself. Remember, most people aren't trained in fighting so you don't have to be a black belt to successfully defend yourself (unlike in MMA).


I agree with Bungle. Hapkido, Tae-Kwon-do, Aikido and Judo are from the "-Do" (literal translation - form) school of eastern martial arts .. they are concerned more with the beauty of the form of martial arts and it's spiritual and personal development aspects. Read simply, they suck for real fighting. The "-Jutsu" (literal translation - technique) forms of martial arts are the actual warrior styles made for more practical application. So yes, Hapkido sucks. And don't even get me started on Krav Maga.. ugh, what a dumb choreographed "I do *this* reaaaal slow and you do this *hiiiyaaaa*!" piece of crap martial art. In the heat of a real fight you don't have time for most of that shit. And they advertise it as this super-dangerous form of dirty no-holds-barred fighting because of the eye-gouges and groin kicks they teach. Big f'in deal... anyone can do those given the opportunity, you don't need years of training to pull those dirty tactics off, just an opening. 

Kickboxing and boxing may have a slight flaw of conditioning use of big gloves for blocking, but with minor adjustments in style to account for that, they are still the most powerful forms of striking in MMA today (along with muay thai). Almost all top mma fighters nowadays train in those styles to some degree. When has anyone seen a professional Hapkido mma fighter??


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## kishiro (Dec 28, 2006)

Liddellianenko said:


> I agree with Bungle. Hapkido, Tae-Kwon-do, Aikido and Judo are from the "-Do" (literal translation - form) school of eastern martial arts .. they are concerned more with the beauty of the form of martial arts and it's spiritual and personal development aspects. Read simply, they suck for real fighting. The "-Jutsu" (literal translation - technique) forms of martial arts are the actual warrior styles made for more practical application. So yes, Hapkido sucks. And don't even get me started on Krav Maga.. ugh, what a dumb choreographed "I do *this* reaaaal slow and you do this *hiiiyaaaa*!" piece of crap martial art. In the heat of a real fight you don't have time for most of that shit. And they advertise it as this super-dangerous form of dirty no-holds-barred fighting because of the eye-gouges and groin kicks they teach. Big f'in deal... anyone can do those given the opportunity, you don't need years of training to pull those dirty tactics off, just an opening.
> 
> Kickboxing and boxing may have a slight flaw of conditioning use of big gloves for blocking, but with minor adjustments in style to account for that, they are still the most powerful forms of striking in MMA today (along with muay thai). Almost all top mma fighters nowadays train in those styles to some degree. When has anyone seen a professional Hapkido mma fighter??


you are a fool to think judo is in the same class as aikido, or hapkido. 
i have done aikido (yoshinkai) and have sparred with my friend that does hapkido so i can say they are diffrent from judo in many ways.. what have you studied to make you say any of these styles are not up to par for a fight? in a fight i feel comforable using judo. i belive most guys on this list feel the same as me...

Judo MMA Database

i also belive dave camarillo, ufc coach from aka. would agree with me, as judo being a very good part of fighting...


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## Zapatista (Dec 4, 2006)

Liddellianenko said:


> I agree with Bungle. Hapkido, Tae-Kwon-do, Aikido and Judo are from the "-Do" (literal translation - form) school of eastern martial arts .. they are concerned more with the beauty of the form of martial arts and it's spiritual and personal development aspects. Read simply, they suck for real fighting. The "-Jutsu" (literal translation - technique) forms of martial arts are the actual warrior styles made for more practical application. So yes, Hapkido sucks. And don't even get me started on Krav Maga.. ugh, what a dumb choreographed "I do *this* reaaaal slow and you do this *hiiiyaaaa*!" piece of crap martial art. In the heat of a real fight you don't have time for most of that shit. And they advertise it as this super-dangerous form of dirty no-holds-barred fighting because of the eye-gouges and groin kicks they teach. Big f'in deal... anyone can do those given the opportunity, you don't need years of training to pull those dirty tactics off, just an opening.
> 
> Kickboxing and boxing may have a slight flaw of conditioning use of big gloves for blocking, but with minor adjustments in style to account for that, they are still the most powerful forms of striking in MMA today (along with muay thai). Almost all top mma fighters nowadays train in those styles to some degree. When has anyone seen a professional Hapkido mma fighter??


There's another thread that is talking about this type of thing. You're equating MMA with the real world, which is completely false. MMA teaches you to fight against 1 enemy and 1 enemy only. Some of the traditional arts teach how to deal with more than 1 (you may not destroy all of them, but you'd get farther than with MMA). The chances are too, that in a self-defense situation (which this thread is all about) there is a chance that the attacker will have a weapon. Boxing or Muay Thai isn't going to help you and will get you in trouble. The traditional arts (such as Hapkido, even though it's more modern than others) teach how to disarm the attacker and then take down the person. 

Also, you won't see a Hapkido person do MMA for a couple reasons. 1.) Most traditional arts stress that the student isn't supposed to make money off of their training (with the exception of teaching) 2.) the person most likely to take Hapkido isn't the type of person that would want to get into MMA, if they wanted to they would do something else 3.) If you've seen anything other than UFC you'd realize that there are tons of traditional martial arts that are used in MMA. There are a lot of people who started (or still train) in Karate, TKD, Judo and others who do really well. Just look at K1 and you'll see traditional arts aren't bad. 4.) MMA has rules that restrict certain things whereas the self-defense arts have no rules. In real life, there are no rules. Sure you say that you can just "learn" or do the stuff in the heat of the moment when emotions kick in, but if you train heavily with the MMA rules you'll naturally revert to what you have trained in. That's what Krav Maga does. They teach a strike and repeat it until it is natural as a reflex, so when you need to fight you'll naturally know what to do.

Traditional arts aren't bad, and a lot of them are better at self-defense than the main arts of the UFC.


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## CashKola (Jul 7, 2006)

Why does everyone think boxing is so bad for self defense? I everyone says this stuff about how you can't block in a street fight like you do in boxing because of the big gloves (yet people except Muay Thai and kickboxing even though they almost always use gloves). 

People forget one major thing about boxing, you learn how to strike too. When does blocking really become a big factor in a street fight? When you get attacked on the street you can either run, or hit back, blocks are not a big factor in a street fight because it is just too quick, but you can slip a punch and counter (which boxing focuses a lot on). In boxing you focus a lot on fast and powerful combinations and that can be lethal on the street. I'm telling you right now if a skilled boxer is attacked on the street he will unleash such a fast and powerful combination and drop the guy before he even knows what hit him. 

And what is this shit about disarming people with knives and all that? If your getting attacked by a knife, get out of there as fast as possible, and if you can't then kick him in the nuts and try and parry the attack with one hand and use the other to start the combination. Who is really going to stand there and try and disarm the guy? This isn't Hollywood. If you are really afraid about knives and guns, carry your own.

This is a great article about a boxer who went to a traditional martial art class for self defense, and I think this would be a good read for some of you guys looking for self defense. 
Your Top Source For Boxing Training Advice


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## Zapatista (Dec 4, 2006)

CashKola said:


> Why does everyone think boxing is so bad for self defense? I everyone says this stuff about how you can't block in a street fight like you do in boxing because of the big gloves (yet people except Muay Thai and kickboxing even though they almost always use gloves).
> 
> People forget one major thing about boxing, you learn how to strike too. When does blocking really become a big factor in a street fight? When you get attacked on the street you can either run, or hit back, blocks are not a big factor in a street fight because it is just too quick, but you can slip a punch and counter (which boxing focuses a lot on). In boxing you focus a lot on fast and powerful combinations and that can be lethal on the street. I'm telling you right now if a skilled boxer is attacked on the street he will unleash such a fast and powerful combination and drop the guy before he even knows what hit him.
> 
> ...


Boxing may have fast and powerful combinations but so do other arts. Kenpo for example, has very fast combinations that are just as strong as a boxer's, but Kenpo also teaches more than just punches (with kicks and some styles teach some joint manipulations too). Some Kung Fu styles also focus on speed too. There isn't just one perfect art for self-defense, there are tons that are good for different people. I'd prefer to learn self-defense from an art that is a self-defense art and not a sport, but that's just me.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Zapatista said:


> Boxing may have fast and powerful combinations but so do other arts. Kenpo for example, has very fast combinations that are just as strong as a boxer's, but Kenpo also teaches more than just punches (with kicks and some styles teach some joint manipulations too). Some Kung Fu styles also focus on speed too. There isn't just one perfect art for self-defense, there are tons that are good for different people. I'd prefer to learn self-defense from an art that is a self-defense art and not a sport, but that's just me.


True.. and another thing no one seems to have mentioned is the individual doing the art from or style or whatever. What works for one person might not work for another . When I worked as a bouncer there was nothing in MMA that would have really helped me in some of the situations. AS a bouncer you were not allowed to throw a punch until one was thrown at you, though it was mazing how hard you could bring someone down with out throwing a puch, and most of what I used I learned from tradational martial arts. like Judo, Karate, Tang soo do, Ninjitsu Jujitsu and others. GRanted there were a few take downs I did that were just as home in an MMA ring as they are in tradational MA there was no ground and pound. It usually ended up in a controling joint lock or submission, again acceptable in MMA but learned in a tradational sense. SO yea SOme MMA is applicable in real life. But the tradational art fors have been around for decades and centuries for a simple reason. They still have applications in the real world. Plus MMA is taken from tradational MA its not a whole seperate thing. With out Tradational MA there would be NO MMA. MMA is just a sport application of what has been learned for hundreds of years in tradational styles.


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## LionsDen32 (Feb 4, 2007)

Krav Maga, some BJJ and Muy Thai is good 2. Some basic elements of boxing like slipping punches, how to throw a proper punch etc. are good but in a street fight some of the techniques taught to boxers will get ur ass kicked. For an example ik a few kids in my school that think there all bad ass cuz they take boxing and try bobbing and weaving during a fight only to get a knee to the face which by the way is very painful. Try looking for self defense based martial arts classes that are based on self defense in real life situations but also incoporate some Martial Arts as well.


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## Combat_HapKiDo (Jul 9, 2006)

The Don said:


> True.. and another thing no one seems to have mentioned is the individual doing the art from or style or whatever. What works for one person might not work for another . When I worked as a bouncer there was nothing in MMA that would have really helped me in some of the situations. AS a bouncer you were not allowed to throw a punch until one was thrown at you, though it was mazing how hard you could bring someone down with out throwing a puch, and most of what I used I learned from tradational martial arts. like Judo, Karate, Tang soo do, Ninjitsu Jujitsu and others. GRanted there were a few take downs I did that were just as home in an MMA ring as they are in tradational MA there was no ground and pound. It usually ended up in a controling joint lock or submission, again acceptable in MMA but learned in a tradational sense. SO yea SOme MMA is applicable in real life. But the tradational art fors have been around for decades and centuries for a simple reason. They still have applications in the real world. Plus MMA is taken from tradational MA its not a whole seperate thing. With out Tradational MA there would be NO MMA. MMA is just a sport application of what has been learned for hundreds of years in tradational styles.


I agree totally. Traditional martial arts are very effective in real-life situations. One of the drawbacks for certain styles is they take a long time to learn properly and require a tremendous amount of devotion and commitment. 

One of our sensei's runs a security firm which provides security to a lot of events around the Toronto area. He has a number of guys from our club that work for him part-time and a few others employed fulltime. All of you guys who say Hapkido is a "*****" MA obviously have never run into him or his employees. He can move anyone around with ease and make you feel as much pain as necessary to do what he says. I have seen him move giant guys around like they are babies. 

Joint locks are a very effective way to get people to modify their behaviour when they get out-of-line. In the real world, you can only use a reasonable amount of force to defend yourself and the ability to tailor your response to the situation is what makes traditional martial arts like Hapkido so useful. 

I laugh when I hear how Hapkido is not useful in real fights - part of our training is how to control and "convince" recalcitrant individuals to comply to our demands. Of course, we do not use these techniques to bully people or show how cool we are - strictly self-defense and security applications. Anyone who tries that crap is quickly shown the door at our school.

I am also have rank in Chito-Ryu Karate as well and there is no comparison between Karate and our style of Hapkido. Out of all of the martial art styles I have seen and experienced, our blend of Hapkido and Kempo is the most practical and the most effective means of self-defense and controlling individuals. I must admit that I still like the Karate for the Katas and some of the other techniques. Of course, I am not really interested in professional MMA in the UFC or elsewhere other than the fact that I enjoy watching the fights and different techniques the fighters use so that is probably some of the reason for my views. 

Please don't give me this crap about how ineffective they are or that all of the practitioners are "pussies" - you only showcase your own ignorance.


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## Trainee (Nov 18, 2006)

> Please don't give me this crap about how ineffective they are or that all of the practitioners are "pussies" - you only showcase your own ignorance.


I totally understand how you feel. People insult Karate all the time, saying it's useless in real-world situations. However, at my TKD/Karate place (I take Muay Thai and BJJ, too), they teach takedowns, grappling, what to do when you fall, various joint techniques, and much more than just stand-up, high kicks and punches. In fact, my instructor told the class that high kicks are a big no-no in a real work situation, so we've worked on effective low kicks in different areas (not the usual muay thai low kick to the thigh).

It's only the way these things are taught in the majority of the area, not the art itself.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Trainee said:


> I totally understand how you feel. People insult Karate all the time, saying it's useless in real-world situations. However, at my TKD/Karate place (I take Muay Thai and BJJ, too), they teach takedowns, grappling, what to do when you fall, various joint techniques, and much more than just stand-up, high kicks and punches. In fact, my instructor told the class that high kicks are a big no-no in a real work situation, so we've worked on effective low kicks in different areas (not the usual muay thai low kick to the thigh).
> 
> It's only the way these things are taught in the majority of the area, not the art itself.


You said it yourself.. high kicks are a no-no in a real fight. There goes 90% of TKD then.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

> All of you guys who say Hapkido is a "*****" MA obviously have never run into him or his employees. He can move anyone around with ease and make you feel as much pain as necessary to do what he says. I have seen him move giant guys around like they are babies.


Yeah, when those giant guys just stand around waiting for him to demonstrate. Or even if they're "half-resisting", they're still not fighting back like in real life... I'd like to see him pull that shit when a giant is swinging for his face and nuts without anything to hold him back and the giant isn't drunk or slow as shit.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

> Krav Maga, some BJJ and Muy Thai is good 2. Some basic elements of boxing like slipping punches, how to throw a proper punch etc. are good but in a street fight some of the techniques taught to boxers will get ur ass kicked. For an example ik a few kids in my school that think there all bad ass cuz they take boxing and try bobbing and weaving during a fight only to get a knee to the face which by the way is very painful. Try looking for self defense based martial arts classes that are based on self defense in real life situations but also incoporate some Martial Arts as well.


No one who is not an idiot will try to bob and weave outside the boxing ring. Or block much for that matter.. unlike traditional Martial Artists, boxers and kickboxers can separate the sport aspects of the art from the practical aspects. For a lot of traditional martial arts, there IS no practical aspect so the separation is out of question.. flashy movie gimmicks, stupid jumping kicks, pitter-patter sparring kicks and punches, restricitive forms and katas crap. 

Even one of the greatest modern practioners of martial arts, Bruce Lee saw the inherent flashiness and fluff present in a lot of traditional MAs... hence the creation of JKD where he cuts away the fluff and keeps the substance. AND he borrows heavily from western boxing and kickboxing (his own words). 

Yes, there are some good practical traditional MA's .. Muay Thai, Kali, Jiu Jitsu, ***** etc. There are some traditional MAs that are part fluff and part practical .. Judo, and some forms of Karate and Kung Fu come to mind. There are MAs that masquerade as traditional MAs in order to brighten their name but are really MMA disciplines borrowing successful techniques from other disciplines like Muay Thai etc.. Kyokushin Karate and San Shou Kung Fu for example. There are truly scientific modern MAs that are devastating, like JKD and the Russian Systema. There are modern MAs that claim to be scientific and practical but are really a money-making way of convincing little kids and petite women that they can suddenly beat 6'8 300lbs giants armed with anything from knives to rocket launchers .. Krav Maga is one of those. AND THEN, there are the traditional martial arts that are ALL FLUFF ... TKD, Aikido, Hapkido, and most forms of Karate and Kung Fu.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

kishiro said:


> you are a fool to think judo is in the same class as aikido, or hapkido.
> i have done aikido (yoshinkai) and have sparred with my friend that does hapkido so i can say they are diffrent from judo in many ways.. what have you studied to make you say any of these styles are not up to par for a fight? in a fight i feel comforable using judo. i belive most guys on this list feel the same as me...
> 
> Judo MMA Database
> ...


I would agree partially.. of all the "-Do" forms, Judo is the by far the most practical. It still has a lot of stuff inapplicable in a real fight, but by and large it is adaptable to the real world and even the MMA ring. As for Aikido... if you feel comfortable using it in a fight, you're probably REAL comfortable. Like comfortably lying on the floor unconcious. Yes, I was unfortunate enough to take a couple of classes in it, and that was all I needed to see how ridiculous it was; 

"I am going to come at you THIS way.. and you casually move out of the way and 'redirect' my force. Also, did I mention I'm 6 years old and retarded?.. because I never alter my blows to follow you, I attack off balance, and never use combinations."


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

This is a thread that we've had before, but it's a good one. Anyway, this is how I see most of the styles you've mentioned on here.

TKD: Pretty much useless in street combat. It doesn't teach things that are really required for a great striker, like different head movement styles, effective blocking and more practical strikes (I mean spinning back kick, come on). I'm not say that TKD guys can't be good fighters, but the style doesn't really set you up to be really good at anything, and you're really f*cked once you end up on your back.

Karate: Teaches speed in striking and alot of things that are missed in styles like TKD, but it is still lacking, because it misses things that an MMA striker in this day and age thinks are pretty basic. (Knees, elbows and clinches) There is also no real preparation for the ground.

Muay Thai: Probably the best striking style around right now. Effective because it teaches the use of pretty much all of the bodies natural weapons (hands, feet, shins, knees and elbows), or at least all of the practical ones. With the addition of the clinch game it is a really solid standup style. Still, you don't really learn much about the ground game from studying pure Thai.

JKD: It's Bruce Lee. Generally, a very practical style and was developed for no holds barred. It's a great style, but I don't think that it is a good as Thai as far as an all-around striking style, but there is definitely alot to be learned from it.

BJJ: Great for the ground game, but alot of more traditional BJJ schools just do gi grappling and don't teach striking on the ground. More modern BJJ is basically constructed to be grappling for MMA, so it's really the most practical style for MMA style competitions. After all, MMA was started by the Gracies.

*****: A great grappling style with leg-locks, something that alot of BJJ practitioners don't pick up on. Some people would say that it's not really as practical as BJJ, but it add things that BJJ doesn't do completely and compliments BJJ really well because it adds the new dimension of leg locks.

Judo: A great grappling style. What is probably most notable about Judo is its takedowns, because they are on a higher level than any other MA style that I am aware of. It teaches submissions too, but there's nothing in the judo submission fighter's repetoire that you can't learn from a good BJJ fighter.

Wrestling: Good, but pretty one dimensional. You can't do much beyond groudnpound with just wrestling. Once you learn wrestling, however, you have a really good base for learning BJJ and other styles of submission fighting. The ground control and the strength that people build in wrestling is really key to building a good ground game.

Aikido: Alot of people think of Aikido as a spiritual practice, and it definitely is. However, there are parts of Aikido that can be really helpful in complimenting a good JJJ, BJJ or ***** backround. Some of the spiralling and circular principals are really uselful, but there are also techniques in Aikido that can really help to land solid submissions. (add Sankyo to an omoplata or triangle armbar, etc.)

I'm not going to say that any style is the best for combat, because that depends almost entirely on the practitioner, but I hope this gives a good look at the discussion so far.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

> Also, you won't see a Hapkido person do MMA for a couple reasons. 1.) Most traditional arts stress that the student isn't supposed to make money off of their training (with the exception of teaching) 2.) the person most likely to take Hapkido isn't the type of person that would want to get into MMA, if they wanted to they would do something else 3.) If you've seen anything other than UFC you'd realize that there are tons of traditional martial arts that are used in MMA. There are a lot of people who started (or still train) in Karate, TKD, Judo and others who do really well. Just look at K1 and you'll see traditional arts aren't bad. 4.) MMA has rules that restrict certain things whereas the self-defense arts have no rules. In real life, there are no rules. Sure you say that you can just "learn" or do the stuff in the heat of the moment when emotions kick in, but if you train heavily with the MMA rules you'll naturally revert to what you have trained in. That's what Krav Maga does. They teach a strike and repeat it until it is natural as a reflex, so when you need to fight you'll naturally know what to do.


You keep saying that MMA isn't a reflection of street fighting skills citing the small number of rules that it has as an excuse (most of which btw weren't in the early MMA like UFC 1-3). But then to validate crap like TKD, you cite it's success in K1 (which is debatable) .. K1 is 10 times more restrictive in terms of rules than regular MMA, how is that more a reflection of the street?? Hypocritical.

And I keep hearing how traditional martial arts aren't in MMA because they're too deadly, or they don't want to "sell" their noble arts for money, or they're better for streets because they concentrate on stuff not allowed by the rules blah blah blah. The real reason you won't see most of them is they plain suck. Don't want to sell for money? Why do we see them competing in other, more rule based fighting tournaments (like K1) which are just as much about the money then? Too deadly and rule breaking? Why did they get mauled during the first 3 UFCs which allowed groin-kicks, hair pulls and just about anything under the sun then? They need to stop making these excuses and show hard proof. But they can't, because in the end they suck, so they'll create the false mysticism and bloated rumors about their deadliness. And gain followers in the form of people who've never been in a real fight, just watch movies, and don't know the difference.


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## aGenius (Feb 5, 2007)

this thread was a really good read btw.

its my opinion that the combination of MT and BJJ would be the ultimate for someone wanting to learn self defence.


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## Onganju (May 26, 2006)

As insightful, and also mundanely shallow and predictable as this thread has become, I think the majority of the posters on boths sides of the TMA/MMA for Self-Defense debate have lost sight of many things. What exactly is best for defending one's self?

Well, let's be honest. If one gets into a altercation outside "on the street" (or "out in the wild" as I call it), it will most likely be themselves against multiple attackers, or an attacker that believes that they have a significant physical advantage because they are bigger, intoxicated or armed. Sometimes it is all those aspects combined. In which case, there are things above and beyond simple physical training and skills that would facilitate their own well-being. What would that be? Well, here's a short list:

1) *Common Sense*. You want to be able to increase your chances of survival out in the wild? How about not putting yourself in potentially dangerous situations? Regardless of what Martial Art one prescribes to, if they are taking it for the purpose of self-defense and the place they are learning it from does live sparring all day long and doesn't take at least 2 minutes to address discretion and better judgement, *then that place is full of shit and doing a grand disservice to those who train there*.

2) *A Prepared Precautionary Mindset*. This goes hand-in-hand with Common Sense. While one may be consciously going out of their way to avoid being put in dangerous situations, it helps a lot to be wary of the possiblity that the _meurde may hit the ventallitor_ at any given time. In which case being able to assess avenues of escape and taking into account surroundings, things that can be used for defense as weapons or shields and keeping in mind if you have any companions of your own that may be less capable of defending themselves mean the difference between life and death. You may be a macho man with the ability to take Fedor down with a sneeze in his direction, but if you end up in a situation where your friends or family end up hurt or dead because of your own machismo it's not going to do them any good and it's going to prove how powerless you really are.

3) *A Will to Survive*. Regardless of what walk in life you choose, if your will to survive is weak you will not be able to defend yourself. It is simply the law of nature. The reason why many Martial Arts practitioners do end up defending themselves well is that process of hardening oneself in body and mind engenders a strong will to survive. We must keep in mind that Humans are animals, and all animals will succumb to death without an avenue to defend themselves or a will to do so. Via the Martial Arts (regardless of style) many people are able equip themselves with tools they believe will help them survive and enforce in themselves a will to do so.

4) *Discretion*. This is related to Common Sense, and to be truthful sometimes the best alternative for survival is running. I will take it further in including that many times the best way to survive a fight is knowing not to start one in the first place. I'm not quite sure that it is a definite truism that "It takes a bigger man to walk away," but I know for damn sure that the man who walks away lives a longer life 9 times out of 10.

5) *Clarity of Thought*. Quick thinking and the ability to stay calm will save you faster than any quick punch, chokehold or trigger finger. You can be as physically powerful and imposing as a herd of stampeding oxen, but your strength and agression doesn't mean anything if you end up mindlessly charging off a steep cliff to your own demise.

What a lot of the posters in this thread have neglected to grasp is that there are reason why the Martial Arts exist. Each and every style was brought about from a situation that required their practitioners to defend their lives via hand-to-hand combat. Now we no longer live in an era where countries decide wars via the sword and shield (modern firearms have changed the landscape of warfare), so such skills eventually become sportative. Yes, that even applies to all the popular "modern" MMA styles. What people tend to forget is that it is not the *Content* of techniques for an individual style that determines its "usefulness" but the *Context* in which they are taught and practiced. It's the reason why an Olympic level Marksmen will lose in a gun-fight with a hardened soldier. They would be used to shooting at metal targets, not at human beings that shoot back.

Let's take into account Alex Gong the Middleweight MT monster who died on August 1, 2003. In all rights he would have been able to handle himself in any physical altercation on the street with well over 90% of the human populace. However, he lost his life because of one moment of indiscretion when he lost his temper and chased down a guy who hit his car. It just goes to prove that your legacy and prowess in your life or any martial art (whether it be Karate, Kung Fu, BJJ, MT, TKD, Hapkido, JKD, etc) only count as footnotes of tragedy if you end up dead. In the end, the Martial Arts tend to be deeper evidence of our own mortality and powerlessness not a gauranteed avenue to power or longevity.


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## Trainee (Nov 18, 2006)

Wow Onganju...that is so true.
Rep'd. Thanks for that.


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## Combat_HapKiDo (Jul 9, 2006)

Liddellianenko said:


> Yeah, when those giant guys just stand around waiting for him to demonstrate. Or even if they're "half-resisting", they're still not fighting back like in real life... I'd like to see him pull that shit when a giant is swinging for his face and nuts without anything to hold him back and the giant isn't drunk or slow as shit.


Well, as a matter of fact that’s his job – he runs a security company that deals with people that get out of hand and become very aggressive. Some of them are big guys and some are small – it doesn’t matter what size they are. The concept of Chukido-Kwan is to use the most effective techniques to self-defend and control an attacker. As I mentioned Chukido-Kwan is a mixture of Hapkido and Chinese Kempo along with striking techniques from boxing and grappling techniques from both Jiu-jitsu and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. The areas that it uses from Hapkido are the three main principles: “Hwa” or non-resistance; “Won” or circular motion; and “Ryu” or the water principle. These can be referenced in Wikipedia under Hapkido.

Hwa requires you to stay relaxed and not oppose an opponent’s strength. When an attack is launched at you, you don’t necessarily retreat because doing so will only keep you in your opponent’s power zone. Instead, you change the angles and move out of the way (also called tai sabaki in Karate) – this can be as little as pivoting such that your body moves a few inches to one side you while at the same time you use a soft hand technique to deflect the strike so that the attack misses you. You are then in a position to use your opponents momentum against him. The bigger the opponent is the more momentum you can use against him. The principle is to use you opponent’s momentum to break his centreline or get him to over commit. When he is off-balance, then you can throw him or retaliate by a strike to a vital target. We practice striking pressure points to inflict maximum pain. This is similar to the US military combat training guide. The following is an actual except taken from the guide which states the following:

CHAPTER 4
MEDIUM-RANGE COMBATIVES
In medium-range combatives, two opponents are already within touching
distance. The arsenal of possible body weapons includes short punches and
strikes with elbows, knees, and hands. Head butts are also effective; do not forget
them during medium-range combat. A soldier uses his peripheral vision to
evaluate the targets presented by the opponent and choose his target. He should
be aggressive and concentrate his attack on the opponent's vital points to end the
fight as soon as possible.

4-1. VITAL TARGETS
The body is divided into three sections: high, middle, and low. Each
section contains vital targets (Figure 4-1, pages 4-5 and 4-6). The effects of
striking these targets follow:
a. High Section. The high section includes the head and neck; it is the most
dangerous target area.
(1) Top of the head. The skull is weak where the frontal cranial bones join.
A forceful strike causes trauma to the cranial cavity, resulting in
unconsciousness and hemorrhage. A severe strike can result in death.
(2) Forehead. A forceful blow can cause whiplash; a severe blow can
cause cerebral hemorrhage and death.
(3) Temple. The bones of the skull are weak at the temple, and an artery
and large nerve lie close to the skin. A powerful strike can cause
unconsciousness and brain concussion. If the artery is severed, the resulting
massive hemorrhage compresses the brain, causing coma and or death.
(4) Eyes. A slight jab in the eyes causes uncontrollable watering and
blurred vision. A forceful jab or poke can cause temporary blindness, or the
eyes can be gouged out. Death can result if the fingers penetrate through the
thin bone behind the eyes and into the brain.
(5) Ears. A strike to the ear with cupped hands can rupture the eardrum
and may cause a brain concussion.
(6) Nose. Any blow can easily break the thin bones of the nose, causing
extreme pain and eye watering.
(7) Under the nose. A blow to the nerve center, which is close to the
surface under the nose, can cause great pain and watery eyes.
(8) Jaw. A blow to the jaw can break or dislocate it. If the facial nerve is
pinched against the lower jaw, one side of the face will be paralyzed.
(9) Chin. A blow to the chin can cause paralysis, mild concussion, and
unconsciousness. The jawbone acts as a lever that can transmit the force of
a blow to the back of the brain where the cardiac and respiratory mechanisms
are controlled.
(10) Back of ears and base of skull. A moderate blow to the back of the
ears or the base of the skull can cause unconsciousness by the jarring effect
on the back of the brain. However, a powerful blow can cause a concussion
or brain hemorrhage and death.
(11) Throat. A powerful blow to the front of the throat can cause death
by crushing the windpipe. A forceful blow causes extreme pain and gagging
or vomiting.
(12) Side of neck. A sharp blow to the side of the neck causes
unconsciousness by shock to the carotid artery, jugular vein, and vagus nerve.
For maximum effect, the blow should be focused below and slightly in front
of the ear. A less powerful blow causes involuntary muscle spasms and
intense pain. The side of the neck is one of the best targets to use to drop an
opponent immediately or to disable him temporarily to finish him later.
(13) Back of neck. A powerful blow to the back of one’s neck can cause
whiplash, concussion, or even a broken neck and death.
b. Middle Section. The middle section extends from the shoulders to the
area just above the hips. Most blows to vital points in this region are not fatal
but can have serious, long-term complications that range from trauma to
internal organs to spinal cord injuries.
(1) Front of shoulder muscle. A large bundle of nerves passes in front of
the shoulder joint. A forceful blow causes extreme pain and can make the
whole arm ineffective if the nerves are struck just right.
(2) Collarbone. A blow to the collarbone can fracture it, causing intense
pain and rendering the arm on the side of the fracture ineffective. The
fracture can also sever the brachial nerve or subclavian artery.
(3) Armpit. A large nerve lies close to the skin in each armpit. A blow to
this nerve causes severe pain and partial paralysis. A knife inserted into the
armpit is fatal as it severs a major artery leading from the heart.
(4) Spine. A blow to the spinal column can sever the spinal cord, resulting
in paralysis or in death.
(5) Nipples. A large network of nerves passes near the skin at the nipples.
A blow here can cause extreme pain and hemorrhage to the many blood
vessels beneath.
(6) Heart. A jolting blow to the heart can stun the opponent and allow
time for follow-up or finishing techniques.
(7) Solar plexus. The solar plexus is a center for nerves that control the
cardiorespiratory system. A blow to this location is painful and can take the
breath from the opponent. A powerful blow causes unconsciousness by
shock to the nerve center. A penetrating blow can also damage internal
organs.
(8) Diaphragm. A blow to the lower front of the ribs can cause the
diaphragm and the other muscles that control breathing to relax. This causes
loss of breath and can result in unconsciousness due to respiratory failure.
(9) Floating ribs. A blow to the floating ribs can easily fracture them
because they are not attached to the rib cage. Fractured ribs on the right side
can cause internal injury to the liver; fractured ribs on either side can possibly
puncture or collapse a lung.
(10) Kidneys. A powerful blow to the kidneys can induce shock and can
possibly cause internal injury to these organs. A stab to the kidneys induces
instant shock and can cause death from severe internal bleeding.
(11) Abdomen below navel. A powerful blow to the area below the navel
and above the groin can cause shock, unconsciousness, and internal bleeding.
(12) Biceps. A strike to the biceps is most painful and renders the arm
ineffective. The biceps is an especially good target when an opponent holds
a weapon.
(13) Forearm muscle. The radial nerve, which controls much of the
movement in the hand, passes over the forearm bone just below the elbow.
A strike to the radial nerve renders the hand and arm ineffective. An
opponent can be disarmed by a strike to the forearm; if the strike is powerful
enough, he can be knocked unconscious.
(14) Back of hand. The backs of the hands are sensitive. Since the nerves
pass over the bones in the hand, a strike to this area is intensely painful. The
small bones on the back of the hand are easily broken and such a strike can
also render the hand ineffective.
c. Low Section. The low section of the body includes everything from the
groin area to the feet. Strikes to these areas are seldom fatal, but they can be
incapacitating.
(1) Groin. A moderate blow to the groin can incapacitate an opponent
and cause intense pain. A powerful blow can result in unconsciousness and
shock.
(2) Outside of thigh. A large nerve passes near the surface on the outside
of the thigh about four finger-widths above the knee. A powerful strike to
this region can render the entire leg ineffective, causing an opponent to drop.
This target is especially suitable for knee strikes and shin kicks.
(3) Inside of thigh. A large nerve passes over the bone about in the middle
of the inner thigh. A blow to this area also incapacitates the leg and can cause
the opponent to drop. Knee strikes and heel kicks are the weapons of choice
for this target.
(4) Hamstring. A severe strike to the hamstring can cause muscle spasms
and inhibit mobility. If the hamstring is cut, the leg is useless.
(5) Knee. Because the knee is a major supporting structure of the body,
damage to this joint is especially detrimental to an opponent. The knee is
easily dislocated when struck at an opposing angle to the joint’s normal range
of motion, especially when it is bearing the opponent’s weight. The knee can
be dislocated or hyperextended by kicks and strikes with the entire body.
(6) Calf. A powerful blow to the top of the calf causes painful muscle
spasms and also inhibits mobility.
(7) Shin. A moderate blow to the shin produces great pain, especially a
blow with a hard object. A powerful blow can possibly fracture the bone that
supports most of the body weight.
(8) Achilles tendon. A powerful strike to the Achilles tendon on the back
of the heel can cause ankle sprain and dislocation of the foot. If the tendon
is torn, the opponent is incapacitated. The Achilles tendon is a good target
to cut with a knife.
(9) Ankle. A blow to the ankle causes pain; if a forceful blow is delivered,
the ankle can be sprained or broken.
(10) Instep. The small bones on the top of the foot are easily broken. A
strike here will hinder the opponent’s mobility.

















There are over 700 pressure points on a human body that when attacked can incapacitate your opponent at least for a few moments, allowing the time to transition to another point of attack.

I suppose the next thing you are going to say is that military commandos are a bunch of pussies too and that these techniques cannot be used in fighting situations. Wake up! These techniques are designed to dispose of someone who is trying to kill you, not just punch you in the head. 

Won, the circular principle, is a way to gain momentum for executing the techniques in a natural and free-flowing manner. If an opponent attacks in linear motion with a strike or knife thrust, the opponent’s force is redirected by leading the attack in a circular pattern, thereby adding the attacker's power to your own. Once the power of the attack is redirected, any number of techniques can be executed to incapacitate your opponent (see above). The idea is to use your opponents energy against himself so the bigger the person is, the more energy a person has, the better it can be used against him.

Ryu, the water principle, can be thought of as the soft, adaptable strength of water. Hapkido is "soft" in that it does not rely on physical force alone, much like water is soft to touch. The idea here is to redirect or deflect your opponent’s strike, in a way that is similar to free-flowing water being divided around a stone only to return and envelop it.

"As the flowing stream penetrates and surrounds its obstructions and as dripping water eventually penetrates the stone, so does the hapkido strength flow in and through its opponents."

These techniques are very effective against any sized individual, although it is true that they are more difficult to utilize on a very large adversary – hence the need for softening up tactics which include the use of pressure point strikes (again see above).



Liddellianenko said:


> No one who is not an idiot will try to bob and weave outside the boxing ring. Or block much for that matter.. unlike traditional Martial Artists, boxers and kickboxers can separate the sport aspects of the art from the practical aspects. For a lot of traditional martial arts, there IS no practical aspect so the separation is out of question.. flashy movie gimmicks, stupid jumping kicks, pitter-patter sparring kicks and punches, restricitive forms and katas crap.
> 
> Even one of the greatest modern practioners of martial arts, Bruce Lee saw the inherent flashiness and fluff present in a lot of traditional MAs... hence the creation of JKD where he cuts away the fluff and keeps the substance. AND he borrows heavily from western boxing and kickboxing (his own words).
> 
> Yes, there are some good practical traditional MA's .. Muay Thai, Kali, Jiu Jitsu, ***** etc. There are some traditional MAs that are part fluff and part practical .. Judo, and some forms of Karate and Kung Fu come to mind. There are MAs that masquerade as traditional MAs in order to brighten their name but are really MMA disciplines borrowing successful techniques from other disciplines like Muay Thai etc.. Kyokushin Karate and San Shou Kung Fu for example. There are truly scientific modern MAs that are devastating, like JKD and the Russian Systema. There are modern MAs that claim to be scientific and practical but are really a money-making way of convincing little kids and petite women that they can suddenly beat 6'8 300lbs giants armed with anything from knives to rocket launchers .. Krav Maga is one of those. AND THEN, there are the traditional martial arts that are ALL FLUFF ... TKD, Aikido, Hapkido, and most forms of Karate and Kung Fu.


What you say here is ridiculous. Certainly if you do not know how to block and redirect your opponent’s strikes you are in big trouble. What do you think a fighter does when their opponent in the Octagon has mounted them. They block while they attempt to regain guard or roll out and regain their feet. If you can’t block you will get your ass kicked in short order. Karate teaches that blocks are actually offensive weapons, to be used to gain an advantage over your opponent. Soft hands techniques actually inflict significant pain to the person who is striking and are offensive weapons in their own right. As well, learning to weave is important because failing to do so means that you will eat a lot of strikes – if you watch any fight in the UFC, you will see the fighters moving their heads and shifting their bodies to make them more harder to hit and also to avoid any strikes.

Your argument also is very simplistic in that it assumes that different schools teach pure martial arts styles only. This is totally untrue. A Grandmaster that has spent his entire life absorbing multiple styles and holds rank in many different forms of martial arts will usually construct his own system which will include what he considers the most effective of all of the different styles – hence our blend of Hapkido, Kempo, striking and grappling. The following link will take you to a ***** training video from Club Kozak which teaches ***** in Quebec Canada. 

Club Kozak Click on the videos tab 

Chukido-Kwan uses many of these same techniques which is not surprising since many of them have roots in Jiu-jitsu. Krav Maga also uses similar techniques and so do many other combat style schools.

Your classification of some martial arts as “ALL FLUFF” makes me believe one of two things about you: 1) you are totally ignorant of the teachings and techniques in these styles or 2) you are prone to hyperbole in order to try to influence people with your weak arguments. I’m sorry but the only people you will convince are people with no knowledge like yourself.



Liddellianenko said:


> I would agree partially.. of all the "-Do" forms, Judo is the by far the most practical. It still has a lot of stuff inapplicable in a real fight, but by and large it is adaptable to the real world and even the MMA ring. As for Aikido... if you feel comfortable using it in a fight, you're probably REAL comfortable. Like comfortably lying on the floor unconcious. Yes, I was unfortunate enough to take a couple of classes in it, and that was all I needed to see how ridiculous it was;
> 
> "I am going to come at you THIS way.. and you casually move out of the way and 'redirect' my force. Also, did I mention I'm 6 years old and retarded?.. because I never alter my blows to follow you, I attack off balance, and never use combinations."


I think it is hilarious that you took two classes and came to the opinion that Aikido is useless. Martial arts like Aikido and Hapkido take years of three or more three hour classes every week to master and yet you are apparently enough of a natural martial artist that you can dismiss them outright. You must be a very narrow minded and one-dimensional individual.

You also think that the use of the techniques I have described require someone to come at me one way – again this is a laughable remark from you. You imply that I cannot move out of your way …. Hmmm, I see MMA fighters in the ring constantly move out of the way by employing angles through sideways movement. By your rational, they wouldn’t be able to do but should just stay there and let you hit them. You also imply that the only way traditional martial arts are effective is if the same type of blows are utilized. I’m not sure who you have trained under but they must have got their black belt down at the local GAP store. As for opponents, usually they attack in balance but end up off balance because of the way the they are defended against. Combinations can only be effective if they can be landed – if you punch me with a jab and I hyper extend your elbow and end up to your side with you in a armbar and a choke, you’re going to have a hell of a time trying to land the right cross. Especially when I collapse your knee from the side and then put you in a guillotine choke.

You did make a point earlier that does have some merit. Generally, some martial arts schools that teach Aikido, Hapkido and other styles do not have much in the way of actual sparring. Part of the reason for that is that lower belts have a tendency to injure other people because they do not yet have control of the techniques yet. Higher level belts definitely do spar although this may not be true at all schools. We employ a situation where one individual is standing in the middle of the floor and surrounded in a circle by the rest of the class. Each member has been given a number and when his number is called he attacks the person in the center with no warning – from whatever side they may be on. The person in the centre must defend against the attack and finish the attacker. Then the next number is called. Depending on the belt level of the individual in the centre different attacking and striking techniques are used. This may include takedowns and grappling with submissions.



Liddellianenko said:


> You keep saying that MMA isn't a reflection of street fighting skills citing the small number of rules that it has as an excuse (most of which btw weren't in the early MMA like UFC 1-3). But then to validate crap like TKD, you cite it's success in K1 (which is debatable) .. K1 is 10 times more restrictive in terms of rules than regular MMA, how is that more a reflection of the street?? Hypocritical.
> 
> And I keep hearing how traditional martial arts aren't in MMA because they're too deadly, or they don't want to "sell" their noble arts for money, or they're better for streets because they concentrate on stuff not allowed by the rules blah blah blah. The real reason you won't see most of them is they plain suck. Don't want to sell for money? Why do we see them competing in other, more rule based fighting tournaments (like K1) which are just as much about the money then? Too deadly and rule breaking? Why did they get mauled during the first 3 UFCs which allowed groin-kicks, hair pulls and just about anything under the sun then? They need to stop making these excuses and show hard proof. But they can't, because in the end they suck, so they'll create the false mysticism and bloated rumors about their deadliness. And gain followers in the form of people who've never been in a real fight, just watch movies, and don't know the difference.


Again your ignorance is simply astounding. Some of us have no interest in fighting in the UFC – that is our choice, certainly if I wished to do so I would follow your advice and train with focus on Muay Thai and BJJ but I don’t. To categorize my style and the styles of other more traditional martial artists as “crap” and “fluff” is simply a way for you to try and inflate your own ego. 

Some arts are more suitable for fighting in the ring and that’s why they predominate. Certainly combat techniques and styles are not suitable because of the potential for severe trauma. As I mentioned in an earlier post, no one wants to see fighters maimed and unable to continue their careers. I don’t think that anyone is making any excuses for their styles – I certainly don’t feel that I have to. However, it does appear that you are very insecure about your own technique in that you feel that trying to belittle other styles will make people think that your chosen style is better.

I anxiously await your reply.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

> What you say here is ridiculous. Certainly if you do not know how to block and redirect your opponent’s strikes you are in big trouble. What do you think a fighter does when their opponent in the Octagon has mounted them. They block while they attempt to regain guard or roll out and regain their feet. If you can’t block you will get your ass kicked in short order. Karate teaches that blocks are actually offensive weapons, to be used to gain an advantage over your opponent. Soft hands techniques actually inflict significant pain to the person who is striking and are offensive weapons in their own right. As well, learning to weave is important because failing to do so means that you will eat a lot of strikes – if you watch any fight in the UFC, you will see the fighters moving their heads and shifting their bodies to make them more harder to hit and also to avoid any strikes.


Read my words... I said you shouldn't block too much in the streets, never said anything about parrying (minor redirection of force) and dodging. Blocking is when you absorb the full force of the attack, and that'll only work well and consistently with giant boxing gloves on or if the strike is simulated and predictable. In real life with no gloves, the punches will get through most of the time, and it only takes one good one. Parrying (swatting the hand away slightly when it approaches your face, but not meeting it WAAAY out there like most traditional martial arts do, which can be easily punched around or faked out) is very effective in real fights and gives you openings, as is dodging (pure weaving), sidestepping and footwork. On the same note, BOBBING and weaving, which involves lowering your head down and opening you up to knees,clinches, headlocks etc., is not that effective. THAT is what i stated. Maybe you should read my words carefully before making stupid assumptions. As for UFC Fighter's blocking when on the ground, that's another big myth about street fighting .. "All fights go to the ground eventually". No they don't... of the many street fights I've seen and the few I've been stupid enough to be in, NONE of them went to the ground. There's usually multiple attackers so you never want to do that, and if you have a guy down, you don't walk into his guard to punch or elbow him. You kick his head into the pavement. Or even his back, sides, whatever.. with shoes on, you never need to bother with anything except kicking the crap out of someone when they're on the ground. That's what Lee Murray did to the grappling king Tito Ortiz in a real bar fight. 




> Ryu, the water principle, can be thought of as the soft, adaptable strength of water. Hapkido is "soft" in that it does not rely on physical force alone, much like water is soft to touch. The idea here is to redirect or deflect your opponent’s strike, in a way that is similar to free-flowing water being divided around a stone only to return and envelop it.
> 
> "As the flowing stream penetrates and surrounds its obstructions and as dripping water eventually penetrates the stone, so does the hapkido strength flow in and through its opponents."


The exact type of false mysticism and mumbo-jumbo of traditional MAs that I was talking about. What tripe. I stand by my words.



> I suppose the next thing you are going to say is that military commandos are a bunch of pussies too and that these techniques cannot be used in fighting situations. Wake up! These techniques are designed to dispose of someone who is trying to kill you, not just punch you in the head.


The military kills with guns, not fists. When was the last time a soldier had to punch out a terrorist? They're tough, but that does nothing to validate their martial arts, that's a skill they barely use, if ever. Yes, a lot of us know where the lethal strikes are, and the pressure points. I'm not debating the effectiveness of striking those areas, and their lethal potential. I'm debating the traditional techniques used by traditional martial arts for hitting those points while protecting yourself. Not the techniques they've absorbed from other effective disciplines mind you, they have no right to claim those for to validate themselves, but their truly "traditional" ones.



> Hwa requires you to stay relaxed and not oppose an opponent’s strength. When an attack is launched at you, you don’t necessarily retreat because doing so will only keep you in your opponent’s power zone. Instead, you change the angles and move out of the way (also called tai sabaki in Karate) – this can be as little as pivoting such that your body moves a few inches to one side you while at the same time you use a soft hand technique to deflect the strike so that the attack misses you. You are then in a position to use your opponents momentum against him. The bigger the opponent is the more momentum you can use against him. The principle is to use you opponent’s momentum to break his centreline or get him to over commit. When he is off-balance, then you can throw him or retaliate by a strike to a vital target. We practice striking pressure points to inflict maximum pain. This is similar to the US military combat training guide. The following is an actual except taken from the guide which states the following


Straight out of boxing. I agree, this is very effective, but this seems like something absorbed from boxing / muay thai. Even the terms like "pivot" and "soft hand parry" are standard boxing terms. Like I said above, stealing effective modern techniques from other disciplines doesn't say anything about actual Karate. Most traditional arts I've trained in for small amounts of time don't propose anything like this... they'll usually teach a ridiculous "stick your arm out completely rigid and vertical" block. Even worse is when they propose blocking kicks with something like that ... the shin bone is so much bigger and thicker than the forearm, that's an automatic fracture if the kick has any real power in it (like a MT round kick). 



> Your argument also is very simplistic in that it assumes that different schools teach pure martial arts styles only. This is totally untrue. A Grandmaster that has spent his entire life absorbing multiple styles and holds rank in many different forms of martial arts will usually construct his own system which will include what he considers the most effective of all of the different styles – hence our blend of Hapkido, Kempo, striking and grappling. The following link will take you to a ***** training video from Club Kozak which teaches ***** in Quebec Canada.


Exactly.. the effective stuff is borrowed from the proven disciplines (Jiu-Jitsu, KickBoxing, MT, ***** etc), while the fluff comes from the tradional ones. This puts your school in the " There are MAs that masquerade as traditional MAs in order to brighten their name but are really MMA disciplines borrowing successful techniques from other disciplines like Muay Thai etc.."
category I outlined before. I'm guessing you have a good fighting capability because of the blend, but if you tell people to take Karate or Hapkido because of that, most of them will get jipped into a fluff filled waste of time.



> I think it is hilarious that you took two classes and came to the opinion that Aikido is useless. Martial arts like Aikido and Hapkido take years of three or more three hour classes every week to master and yet you are apparently enough of a natural martial artist that you can dismiss them outright. You must be a very narrow minded and one-dimensional individual.


I've seen enough of real fights and been in them to picture what would fall apart under pressure. I've seen TKD black belts get mauled by the average high-school bully, and I see the similarities with the unrealistic tactics right away. Don't need to waste 3 years for that.




> You also think that the use of the techniques I have described require someone to come at me one way – again this is a laughable remark from you. You imply that I cannot move out of your way …. Hmmm, I see MMA fighters in the ring constantly move out of the way by employing angles through sideways movement. By your rational, they wouldn’t be able to do but should just stay there and let you hit them. You also imply that the only way traditional martial arts are effective is if the same type of blows are utilized. I’m not sure who you have trained under but they must have got their black belt down at the local GAP store. As for opponents, usually they attack in balance but end up off balance because of the way the they are defended against. Combinations can only be effective if they can be landed – if you punch me with a jab and I hyper extend your elbow and end up to your side with you in a armbar and a choke, you’re going to have a hell of a time trying to land the right cross. Especially when I collapse your knee from the side and then put you in a guillotine choke.


Grab my jab and hyper-extend my elbow with it. Wonderful. Have you ever seen ANYONE in MMA (or even K1) EVER attempt to grab a jab?? Do you realize how quick fists are? With any decent fighter, there's barely enough time to get in a quick parry or a dodge/weave, and you propose a full GRAB of the arm WHILE it's extended for a split second AND the other arm is free to counter-punch you and knock you out?? Not to mention knees and takedowns. Armbars are effective when your opponents are not fully mobile and their kicks, punches are constrained in some way. Usually this means they're on the ground. Not when they're fully mobile and punching. Oh and I didn't imply that it's impossible to move out of a blow's way.. sitestepping is common in boxing/KB/MT as well. What I thought silly was the attempt to grab the arm after that and do stupid shit like try to flip the guy over or twist it. He'll just pull in for a hook or a knee. 



> You did make a point earlier that does have some merit. Generally, some martial arts schools that teach Aikido, Hapkido and other styles do not have much in the way of actual sparring.


Exactly. Whatever the reason, there's never any proof. They could come up with padded coverings or whatever to prevent the lethal potential of the strikes, and rule out some of the extreme stuff and still have a semi-proof worthy sparring session. But that would be MMA, and we all know how they do in MMA.



> Again your ignorance is simply astounding. Some of us have no interest in fighting in the UFC – that is our choice, certainly if I wished to do so I would follow your advice and train with focus on Muay Thai and BJJ but I don’t. To categorize my style and the styles of other more traditional martial artists as “crap” and “fluff” is simply a way for you to try and inflate your own ego.


I'm not doing this for my ego. I am confident in my abilities yet humble enough to admit there's plenty of people out there that could beat the stuffing out of me. I'm doing this so that when people make a choice about learning martial arts, they get the real self-defence skills they want for all the the hard work, time, money and sweat they put into it, instead of some silly analogies with water and stones and a thousand ways to bow.


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## Zapatista (Dec 4, 2006)

Liddellianenko said:


> You keep saying that MMA isn't a reflection of street fighting skills citing the small number of rules that it has as an excuse (most of which btw weren't in the early MMA like UFC 1-3). But then to validate crap like TKD, you cite it's success in K1 (which is debatable) .. K1 is 10 times more restrictive in terms of rules than regular MMA, how is that more a reflection of the street?? Hypocritical.


I never said they had success in K1 because of the TKD. Somebody asked why, if the traditional arts are so good why aren't there MMA competitors training in them, to which I replied that there are people in MMA (such as K1) that have trained in a TA, it isn't rare. It only becomes rare in the UFC. 

But ya, I don't see how that is hypocritical. I said nothing about how the TKD people do amazing compared to others, I never said that TKD is superior to other arts because it's a TA. I just stated that people have done TA and then done MMA.


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## Zapatista (Dec 4, 2006)

IronMan said:


> Karate: Teaches speed in striking and alot of things that are missed in styles like TKD, but it is still lacking, because it misses things that an MMA striker in this day and age thinks are pretty basic. (Knees, elbows and clinches) There is also no real preparation for the ground.


You need to check out Kyokushin Karate (I've mentioned this art in other threads). Kyokushin Karate is similar to Muay Thai, and allows elbows,knees and the clinch.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Zapatista said:


> I never said they had success in K1 because of the TKD. Somebody asked why, if the traditional arts are so good why aren't there MMA competitors training in them, to which I replied that there are people in MMA (such as K1) that have trained in a TA, it isn't rare. It only becomes rare in the UFC.
> 
> But ya, I don't see how that is hypocritical. I said nothing about how the TKD people do amazing compared to others, I never said that TKD is superior to other arts because it's a TA. I just stated that people have done TA and then done MMA.


The fact that they trained in TKD before coming to MMA means nothing. I trained in TKD for a year as a kid, and I compete in amateur MMA. That doesn't validate TKD for me by any means, i still think it was a waste of my time. How many MMA fighters that trained in TKD actually use it in MMA is the question. Besides the occasional roundhouse kick, I never see ANY of it used. Usually they end up either being a "freestyler" or training in other disciplines.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Zapatista said:


> You need to check out Kyokushin Karate (I've mentioned this art in other threads). Kyokushin Karate is similar to Muay Thai, and allows elbows,knees and the clinch.


similar is an understatement. A direct copy of Muay Thai made in the 1960s is more like it.. it's 95% Muay thai (stance, kicks, elbows, everything) and 5% karate. That being said, it is effective.


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## Zapatista (Dec 4, 2006)

Liddellianenko said:


> The fact that they trained in TKD before coming to MMA means nothing. I trained in TKD for a year as a kid, and I compete in amateur MMA. That doesn't validate TKD for me by any means, i still think it was a waste of my time. How many MMA fighters that trained in TKD actually use it in MMA is the question. Besides the occasional roundhouse kick, I never see ANY of it used. Usually they end up either being a "freestyler" or training in other disciplines.


You don't seem to be getting my point. I never said anything about TKD effectiveness in the ring, somebody, it might have been you, asked about the TMA not going into MMA and I just stated that there are a lot that do TMA that progress into MMA, but you seem to be fixated on the effectiveness, which you didn't ask about.

If you look at the early UFC's, there was somebody who did well against strikers that trained in TKD. He lost to Shamrock because of the ground game.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Most people who train in a single style only reagardless of what it is in general will not do well in MMA, but on the street that will have an advantage over the majority of the untrained populace. 
Now as for saying TMA is not used in MMA ( I think I read that somewhere in this thread) Umm Just about everything used in the ring comes from some for of TMA . MMA is NOT its own style of fighting. Its a concept of competition that takes from all and every fighting art form there is. Its up to the individual competitor to take what he know and what he is capable of and apply it to his in ring performance. It is after all called Mixed MARTIAL ARTS. Mixed meaning to take different things and put them together. I mean were all arguing two sides of the same coin. Nearly every MMA competitor has some training in a TMA for instance, Muay Thai, BJJ, JJJ, TKD, JKD, Judo, Karate, Boxing (its centuries old and qualifies as a TMA) So really all this point is moot, AS I have said and I beleive Zapitista and Iron man have said.. The only factor that matters is the individual using the art that they have learned. . NO ONE style or training method is better then any other (except whatever it is Fedor does) EVERY style has a place somewhere weather in the real world or in the MMA ring. GRanted some techniques work better then others but again that all depends on the person performing them. 

Side note.. as for grabbing someones punch and using that into an arm bar. Well I did that in a real fight only the kid did not throw a punch he was doing a knife thrust and I ended up shattering his elbow. . And another time I did a great double leg take down into a mount which became a simple ground and pound . One a TMA technique that worked in the real world. the other a more common MMA technique that worked in the real world. Funny thing is I never "Offically" studied in any MMA class.. I just have about 24 years of various TMA training.. Hmm Go figure.


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## AtomDanger (Oct 7, 2006)

The main problem is in "real life" no one is going to warn you or follow the rules. You can get attached at anytime.
You can be bitten, kicked on the ground, etc...


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

the best thing for self defense is to not put yourself in bad situations where you may be in danger. and if you are, get the hell out of there.

second best for self defense is to fight as dirty as humanly possible. knee someone in the balls, spit, bite, pull hair, head butt. whatever it takes. if you're attacked, the only thing that matters is breaking loose and getting away.


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## DSGhST07 (Dec 22, 2007)

Any martial art is good for a street fight because the average guy is gonna throw a bunch of punches and wild hooks, try to grab you and keep hitting you, or pin you down. Thats how like 80% of the fights go, the other 20 with either using a weapon or jumping you. Even if you take up boxing your good because you actually know how to throw punches, unlike these thugs who think they are nasty fighters because they are mad and listen to rap.


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## Bolarbag (Feb 5, 2008)

Hi everyone!!Been reading for a while, couldnt pass up on adding to this one

That last quote is absolute bollocks,that any martial artist could beat a thug street fighter...
As has been said before, humans are animals, its instinct that we fight, it comes naturally to us, you are deluding yourself if you think you can take up any tma/mma and take on these thugs...
Thugs are thugs, because they live like thugs day in day out, which is almost equivalent to sparring in a tough gym(area and gang dependant) day in day out. They know how to survive and they are willing to fight to survive so learning some commercialised form of tma(i.e. one with belts) will just give you a deluded form of confidence. No matter what you train it all depends on 3main things;
1. Your trainer/teacher if their no good you've lost before you've even been confronted
2. Your attitude to your training, if you dont have a respect for what your doing and the reason your doing it, then whats the point? Again your deluding yourself.
3. Conditioning and training hard, everytime I train, I train as if I'm in the ring with an opponent, there are days where I lose focus so I go home to regain it before retraining.

I live in a pretty rough city,it aint no bronx but its pretty rough, everytime I'm confronted I have to respect this guy might be a trained fighter with a sh*ty attitude so no lazy punches no fancy sh*t, if there are several opponents then its smash and run.

I appreciate these grading styles for what they are and what they are meant to muster, but I dont respect them,you give give a guy a black belt and you give him a deluded confidence that he can take on the world.

Dont train for self defence, train to attack and run, I train Muay Thai,Muay Boran,BJJ,and wrestling,MMA. I'm also a black belt in shotokan karate(utterly pointless other than it kept me suptle and fit).

I would never train within a grading system again.


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## Zemelya (Sep 23, 2007)

DSGhST07 said:


> Any martial art is good for a street fight because the average guy is gonna throw a bunch of punches and wild hooks, try to grab you and keep hitting you, or pin you down. Thats how like 80% of the fights go, the other 20 with either using a weapon or jumping you. Even if you take up boxing your good because you actually know how to throw punches, unlike these thugs who think they are nasty fighters because they are mad and listen to rap.


Agree 100%... 
Also the main part of self defense is being aware of surroundings - doesn't mean you should become the guy who constantly looking around with crazy look, it of course takes time to train your brain to notice things. Say your come to a party - you notice who's aggressive looking/acting 
and try not to turn your back to them.
Boxing is very good as far as my experience - nothing discourages attackers like one punch KO. Comparing to boxer average people cant punch at all. there are arts with more discouraging moves of course like Muay Thai, Krav Maga or Systema.


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## DSGhST07 (Dec 22, 2007)

Bolarbag said:


> Hi everyone!!Been reading for a while, couldnt pass up on adding to this one
> 
> That last quote is absolute bollocks,that any martial artist could beat a thug street fighter...
> As has been said before, humans are animals, its instinct that we fight, it comes naturally to us, you are deluding yourself if you think you can take up any tma/mma and take on these thugs...
> ...


First off you really must not know much about thugs. Being a thug doesn't mean they go out and fight everyday for a living to survive. They do it because they choose to do it, they wanna be bad just like there favorite rappers. I live in Bridgeport, CT so I would know. "Thugs" fight off of instinct, so ok, whats the point of taking martial arts if instincts are better then being TRAINED HOW TO FIGHT? Being TRAINED TO FIGHT and THINKING YOU CAN FIGHT are 2 different things. Therefore you lost automatically. Second, if you take allll those martial arts like you claim you do, why bother posting what you did, because after your last sentence you just made whatever you said above not valid. "I will never take a grading system"..yet you take BJJ? Your a black belt in Shotokan yet think its useless, yet you stood there long enough to get a black belt which takes a couple years of hard training. Therefore you didnt think it was useless. Seriously, don't critize what I said if your gonna come up with all of that crap, and then acting like your Tony Jaa at the end of it.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

DSGhST07 said:


> First off you really must not know much about thugs. Being a thug doesn't mean they go out and fight everyday for a living to survive. They do it because they choose to do it, they wanna be bad just like there favorite rappers. I live in Bridgeport, CT so I would know. "Thugs" fight off of instinct, so ok, whats the point of taking martial arts if instincts are better then being TRAINED HOW TO FIGHT? Being TRAINED TO FIGHT and THINKING YOU CAN FIGHT are 2 different things. Therefore you lost automatically. Second, if you take allll those martial arts like you claim you do, why bother posting what you did, because after your last sentence you just made whatever you said above not valid. "I will never take a grading system"..yet you take BJJ? Your a black belt in Shotokan yet think its useless, yet you stood there long enough to get a black belt which takes a couple years of hard training. Therefore you didnt think it was useless. Seriously, don't critize what I said if your gonna come up with all of that crap, and then acting like your Tony Jaa at the end of it.



Actually, he has a good point about thugs. A lot of them are tough guys, and a lot of people know how to box and fight in general, particularly if they get in a lot fights on the street. Thinking you are gonna beat them because you take Kickboxing twice a week is as bad if not worse than thinking you are mad cos yo listen to rap or whatever. The type of people who go up an attack random strangers on the street, even the ones who only do it in large numbers, are generally the people who know how to fight.
Underestimating your opponent is quite likely to result in an asskicking.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

I guess I would say learn krav maga or sikal they teach you the no hold bars self defense combat. they teach you how to disarm people and defend yourself in situations like that. Sikal also teaches you to use just about anything as a weapon.


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## Bolarbag (Feb 5, 2008)

> Being TRAINED TO FIGHT and THINKING YOU CAN FIGHT are 2 different things. Therefore you lost automatically. Second, if you take allll those martial arts like you claim you do, why bother posting what you did, because after your last sentence you just made whatever you said above not valid. "I will never take a grading system"..yet you take BJJ?


How do you think these guys came up with these fighting systems...they have been developed over many years, due to instinct,its not rocket science, and do thugs not watch TV??Do they never have a member train at any fighting system?They have an unfortunate method of seeing if these systems work in full contact,on unsuspecting members of the public,I told you what I train so you knew my background as I'm not biased towards no fighting systems. I got my black belt from when I was 12until I was 16,just says it all...lucky I had a rough time at school and knew what worked and what didnt. I train BJJ because I like the methods not to gain belts, I'll join in on the gradin classes but only to add hours to my training,the belt system is a joke, period. I see it so many times in Muay Thai where schools try and implement a grading system and the attitude these guys have,then get ktfo sparring against non graders. Why is it so hard to understand that I train now in all of the above 6times a week?Dont all of you train in mma...as this is an mma forum?


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

DSGhST07 said:


> First off you really must not know much about thugs. Being a thug doesn't mean they go out and fight everyday for a living to survive. They do it because they choose to do it, they wanna be bad just like there favorite rappers. I live in Bridgeport, CT so I would know. "Thugs" fight off of instinct, so ok, whats the point of taking martial arts if instincts are better then being TRAINED HOW TO FIGHT? Being TRAINED TO FIGHT and THINKING YOU CAN FIGHT are 2 different things. Therefore you lost automatically. Second, if you take allll those martial arts like you claim you do, why bother posting what you did, because after your last sentence you just made whatever you said above not valid. "I will never take a grading system"..yet you take BJJ? Your a black belt in Shotokan yet think its useless, yet you stood there long enough to get a black belt which takes a couple years of hard training. Therefore you didnt think it was useless. Seriously, don't critize what I said if your gonna come up with all of that crap, and then acting like your Tony Jaa at the end of it.


You sound like someone who's never been in a real fight. YES, instinct is usually better in a real fight than stiff training hitting pads or choreographed routines with unresisting partners, or worst of all, choreographed katas with no one even responding, and techniques that are unrealistic and suicidal to begin with (like Karate/TKD's "blocking" of kicks with an extended arm or the stupid stance of keeping your hands at your side with your knees bent, Krav Maga's ludicrous knife "snatching" etc). Such "training" can be worse than none when it comes to a real fight, because it falls apart the second you realize your opponent is not going to stand there while you dandily walk around him and do your pretty aikido flip, he's gonna sock you right in the face. I've seen some such black belts get beaten pretty badly your average high school thug. Some MAs like Muay Thai/Boxing/KB/BJJ are somewhat useful even if you haven't sparred, because they give you stronger striking and conditioning, but most traditional MAs don't even give you that much. You should listen the the Shotokan BB when he confesses that. But IMO if a TMA guy hasn't sparred or tested his MA skills out against someone actually fighting him back, the "thugs" you condescend on will probably whup him 9 times out of 10. In general, the thug types tend to bigger, stronger and meaner than your average guy .. your TKD hop kick is usually quite useless against their actual fighting experience and instinct, and usually brute strength. Real life isn't like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Bolarbag has made some very legit points and he seems to know what he's talking about, through actual experience I would guess. If you don't believe me, sock one of your worthless Bridgeport thugs next time he's acting tough, and let us all know how it went.


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## DSGhST07 (Dec 22, 2007)

Liddellianenko said:


> You sound like someone who's never been in a real fight. YES, instinct is usually better in a real fight than stiff training hitting pads or choreographed routines with unresisting partners, or worst of all, choreographed katas with no one even responding, and techniques that are unrealistic and suicidal to begin with (like Karate/TKD's "blocking" of kicks with an extended arm or the stupid stance of keeping your hands at your side with your knees bent, Krav Maga's ludicrous knife "snatching" etc). Such "training" can be worse than none when it comes to a real fight, because it falls apart the second you realize your opponent is not going to stand there while you dandily walk around him and do your pretty aikido flip, he's gonna sock you right in the face. I've seen some such black belts get beaten pretty badly your average high school thug. Some MAs like Muay Thai/Boxing/KB/BJJ are somewhat useful even if you haven't sparred, because they give you stronger striking and conditioning, but most traditional MAs don't even give you that much. You should listen the the Shotokan BB when he confesses that. But IMO if a TMA guy hasn't sparred or tested his MA skills out against someone actually fighting him back, the "thugs" you condescend on will probably whup him 9 times out of 10. In general, the thug types tend to bigger, stronger and meaner than your average guy .. your TKD hop kick is usually quite useless against their actual fighting experience and instinct, and usually brute strength. Real life isn't like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Bolarbag has made some very legit points and he seems to know what he's talking about, through actual experience I would guess. If you don't believe me, sock one of your worthless Bridgeport thugs next time he's acting tough, and let us all know how it went.



Not at one point did I mention TKD because I know that it isnt useless in a real fight, nor did I mention Aikido? But w/e all you guys are right, all thugs can beat someone who is trained how to fight because this is what they do, there bigger and stronger and meaner. I am wrong, a thug can beat a boxer, forgive me for even bothering posting that, I should know better. I think i'll just join a gang and use that as my background in MMA competitions and i'll beat everyone. Cuz I mean being mean, strong and bigger will destroy everyone, just like brock lesnar beat frank mir in less than 2 minutes. Forgive me, thugs win.


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## norcalreppin (Oct 23, 2007)

Look into CKs excutive pfs pretty dope haha


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

DSGhST07 said:


> Not at one point did I mention TKD because I know that it isnt useless in a real fight, nor did I mention Aikido? But w/e all you guys are right, all thugs can beat someone who is trained how to fight because this is what they do, there bigger and stronger and meaner. I am wrong, a thug can beat a boxer, forgive me for even bothering posting that, I should know better. I think i'll just join a gang and use that as my background in MMA competitions and i'll beat everyone. Cuz I mean being mean, strong and bigger will destroy everyone, just like brock lesnar beat frank mir in less than 2 minutes. Forgive me, thugs win.


I'm amused that you used Frank Mir as an example .. the whole scenario I'm talking about is a guy who's trained a martial art (possibly an ineffective one) _without_ any real fighting or sparring going up against a thug who has. Frank Mir does not even compare to a guy like that ... he happens to fight for a living and spars/goes all out every week. A seasoned MMA guy like that would obviously tear apart your average thug in a one on one. Although a sub specialist like him that likes to go to the ground would still be more vulnerable on the streets compared to a good striker, if the thug had buddies around. 

But when did I say that an actual well trained mma/boxing/kickboxing/MT fighter with real sparring or fighting experience of a fluid fight situation wouldn't do well against a thug? I agree that guys like that would usually maul an untrained and unexperienced opponent, strength advantage or not. But the debate wasn't about a guy like that, or Frank mir. You were defending a statement that any guy trained in martial arts, no matter what martial art, would beat down the thugs because they don't even know how to throw a punch, and training > strength. I'm saying not all training > strength.. some martial arts just suck for real fighting, period, you admitted as much in your post. They're better in movies. And training without sparring or matchups of any kind will fall apart under pressure or the first time a guy gets hit.

Case in point, I remember my first sparring session very well.. I'd been working on technique for 7 months and hit the pads harder than any guy in the place (partially because I was one of the bigger guys there) and looked the smoothest doing it. I had worked all these elaborate parries and blocks and cool looking responses to any strike my opponent might throw at me, and they worked like clockwork when I knew they were coming. Then I got my first spar, and went up against a 3-0 mma fighter.. all my pad work fell apart, I got mauled. Even with my higher reach, strength and probably cleaner looking technique, the guy kept coming and I couldn't think .. the responses I'd been training against an unmoving pad or a complying opponent were getting me socked in the face here. Hard. A while after that first spar, I switched to an actual MMA/KB camp that spars as a regular part of their training.. among all the training I did, I happened to spar again with that first guy and took him apart, utilizing my strength and reach effectively now that I had actual seasoned fighting responses. The moral of my long story is: the thugs already have that seasoning .. you're not gonna beat em on technique without practising it in a semi-real situation.


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## DSGhST07 (Dec 22, 2007)

Absolutely, but I think you misunderstood what I said in the first post. Of course, I agree if you never sparred and you go up against someone who has fought u might get that behind whooped cuz u might buckle under pressure or forget all you learned. Also im not saying every martial art, the main one I pointed out (not nessicarily a martial art) is boxing. I still believe taking atleast 6 months of good boxing will be effective against someone who sticks to there wild throws, unless the thug knows some boxing thats a different story. TKD is good and all, but in a real fight u aint gonna be doing no spinning kicks. Same as Aikido, you have to realllyy good for it to work on the street. But striking arts such as boxing and muay thai, if trained correctly and put in some sparring time, could be very effective against someone on the street. I have similar situations such as urs, but in BJJ. I knew alot of sweeps, submissions, and counters before sparring, and when I first sparred, I wasnt able to excute anything kept getting tied up and armbarred. Anyways the point of it all was if trained awhile and you actually know how to correctly strike, rather than someone who just throws punches, I think you'll have a greater chance of winning. Not an arguement, just my honest opinion.


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## grkted55 (Dec 13, 2009)

just toughen yourself up, run, do push ups, sit ups, do neck exercises, hit a punching bag. SPAR! I would suggest boxing than learn a martial arts that would help you defend yourself in a real fight , I guess Brazilian Jujitsu would be best, it was proven to the world how effective it can be. Little guy beating the big guy.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, the Gracies promote BJJ as a self-defense system. They have the various replays of early UFC and PRIDE to prove it. Not to mention the Gracie challenge!:thumbsup:


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

i got to disagree here guys. BJJ although a great style would not be a great self defense style. There are underhanded tactics that could be used against bjj such as biting, or eye-gauging or stabbing. Also if you got more than one guy after you and all you got is BJJ your a pretty much screwed. 

Krav Maga is the way to go imo.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Krav Maga is a good martial art but I'm not totally sure it's the best of the martial arts. One you just don't see it that often in MMA. Second, this is me beating a Krav Maga guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsam5C5vwQo:thumbsdown:


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

kantowrestler said:


> Krav Maga is a good martial art but I'm not totally sure it's the best of the martial arts. One you just don't see it that often in MMA. Second, this is me beating a Krav Maga guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsam5C5vwQo:thumbsdown:


I am talking just for street self defense. A trained MMA fighter will beat a krav guy but when you are on the street fighting in bar fights or against thugs then you need to learn the no hold bars type of fighting that krav teaches.


edit: that guy you fought must of been real green or had a very bad teacher if he did train in krav.i mean he didnt spraw use head control go for sweeps and in pat two he didnt post on his arm and pull his leg back to get up like he should.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

In addition to that he was out of shape. He stopped before he could master it cause his father thought he was being disrespectfull. But yeah I can see how Krav Maga could be used properly!:thumbsup:


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

kantowrestler said:


> In addition to that he was out of shape. He stopped before he could master it :


either my gym trains 10 times harder than his or he stopped real early. i train in krav at my gym as well as other martial arts and the people that i see in the beginner class could beat him. in better shape know basic sweeps head control know how to sprawl can fight off their back with kicks before getting up and know clinch work.

anyway krav wont make you an mma champ but it is a great form of self defense.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, I know. I was watching some videos when I was studying for this fight and saw how it can be used. There is a reason Israel has kicked anyone's a** who has tried to conquer them since they've become a nation again!:thumb02:


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, I know. I was watching some videos when I was studying for this fight and saw how it can be used. *There is a reason Israel has kicked anyone's a** who has tried to conquer them since they've become a nation again!*:thumb02:


Yeah, it's called guns and American weapons technology. I highly doubt they've done it by kicking arabs in the nuts one at a time.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Boxing because all street fights start with punching some form of Wrestling because when the flurry doesn't work they tend to tackle you and i think that should do you.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

***** de Amigo said:


> Boxing because all street fights start with punching some form of Wrestling because when the flurry doesn't work they tend to tackle you and i think that should do you.


great choices. Wrestling is great (in fact my base style) the only problem is you don't know how to fight off your back. Krav will teach you some basic sweeps kicks off your back what to do if someone has mounted you how to move off your back and how to get up without exposing yourself. 

one thing that krav also does well (or at least the instructors at my guy do) is it also makes you think past the fight. In your fighting stance they teach you to keep your guard up but your hands open instead of a fist and make a fist just right before you punch. If your hands are open it doesn't make you look like the aggressor (may even look submissive) as apposed to when your hands are clinched in fists. this could make a difference if it gets to the point where the police shows up and ask witness what happened and if it was self defense or just a fight.


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## Trixter45 (Sep 29, 2010)

Obliterate said:


> HI All
> 
> Im a huge MMA fan and want to start getting into training (mainly for fitness and self Defense, dont want to get my head smashed in for a living.
> 
> ...


I don't know if someone has already said this or not being that I did not take the time to read through most of the replies on this forum haha. But Jeet Kune Do embodies formlessness. Meaning it is whatever style when it needs to be that style. So, in theory, yes it could work in the cage. Being that it is an open style developed mainly for self-defense, then it could be right up there for what you are looking for. If it were to work in a cage it would have to be adapted for that sort of competition, as it is not generally a competitive style. I train Kajukenbo (karate, jujitsu, judo, kenpo, kung fu) and Wing Chun with some freestyle grappling (which is what we would be considered I guess, being that it's just a mixture of all sorts of grappling styles). I have trained in Jeet Kune Do as well. My dad actually knows quite a bit about it (he owns our martial arts school and has been training/fighting for over 35 years now). But you know, it's really all up to you and what you feel would be best for self-defense. My advice would be to test the waters with multiple styles and see which you feel suits you best. Everything is effective, it just depends on the user 

Oh and about your question about the moves not working in real life situations... Well put it this way. No matter how you train a move or how good you get at working those moves, a real situation will never allow for it to go exactly like your training. But yes, most of those moves if applied with full force and proper technique will devastate a person.


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