# ***OFFICIAL*** Lyoto Machida vs. Mauricio Rua Pre/Post Fight



## Xerxes

*Please conduct ALL of your discussion in regards to Lyoto "The Dragon" Machida facing Mauricio "Shogun" Rua in this thread. All threads made in regards to this fight will be merged into this one.*​


----------



## JackAbraham34

Shogun (Along with Alves) is my faviroute fighter so maybe im biased, but i see him handing out an ass kicking in this fight :thumb02: War Shogun !!!! raise01:


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## Sicilian_Esq

I think this will be one hell of a fight. Mauricio Shogun Rua is claiming all his injuries are healed, and he was impressive in his last fight against an admittedly aged Liddell. 

Lyoto The Dragon Machida, on the other hand, is one of the most elusive and best defensive fighter today, and has shown he is in top form against even the quickest of opponents [Rashad Sugar Evans]. 

Personally, I see Lyoto taking this one, merely because Shogun is a bit slower. He'll hae to find some way to corner Lyoto Machida in the octagun before unleashing a fury, and that's been proven to be no easy feat.


----------



## joshua7789

Im going Shogun by second round TKO. Shogun has had two tune up fights and will be looking unbeatable like he did in Pride when he steps into the cage for this one. I think he is gonna kick lyoto's legs and slow him down enough to catch him with a big punch.


----------



## Hammerlock2.0

Damn, I hate this matchup. I will feel bad for whoever loses. In my eyes Machida will take it, but Shogun will pose more problems than anyone so far.


----------



## Kang-War

Machida is a lucky dude that he cant get stomp in the face in this fight. Shogun 3rd round KO


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## lpbigd4444

I think Machida is one of those guys that will continue to suprise people with his dominance. People will always know and admit that he is good but some will also say things like "well hes never faced this challenge before" only for Machida to dominate the fighter they think has a chance. I like Shogun very much and I think he is back to his PRIDE form but I dont think it matters because I think Machida and Anderson are in a league of their own. I got Machida winning by 2nd or 3rd round tko without ever being in serious danger throughout the fight. Of course he is not literally unbeatable and Shogun could do it but I really dont think Machida is losing on Oct. 24


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## SSD

I want Machida to win just because he is mysterious and brings a style that we don't see in this sport. Shogun is a very dangerous man and when he catches someone, they don't walk away from a fight without a few bruises. I see Lyoto winning by UD but only after taking a few hard shots from Shogun.


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## DropKicker

I like how everyone that posted so far is "potentially" thinking Shogun has "potential" for an upset. unlike somebody.. But I could'n't agree more, he has all the tools for an upset. Machida will be heavily be favored, no doubt. But I would'nt count out Shogun just yet. I say Shogun by mid rounds TKO stoppage GnP .... if they hit the ground...lol


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## UrbanBounca

This fight won't go to decision. Machida by destruction.


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## jdun11

I dont know how this fight is going to go. BUt I think it is going to be close. And Im picking Shogun.


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## lpbigd4444

I am actually a little suprised that Shogun has this many people picking him so far. I thought for sure Machida would garner like 70 to 75% of the opinions. Its not who we want to win but who we pick to win after all.


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## jeffmantx

I still don't understand why people say Shogun has all the tools to beat Machida like Shogun brings something to the table Machida isn't prepared for. He trains with A Silva who has the best muay thai in mma, he trains with the nog brothers so I gather his ground game is top notch. If anything Shogun should be worried about how hes going to prepare for Machida, who can you find to spar with? Just some thoughts. BTW doesn't Machida look pimping in that suit.


----------



## Dtwizzy2k5

Machida is going to absolutely dominate and probably finish Shogun in the first round. The fact that anybody is saying Shogun will win is not only laughable but it shows how effective the UFC hype machine is at hyping up fights and making even the worst fights seem interesting/competitive.


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## Xerxes

Lyoto all the way. 

I think he takes a UD though I wouldn't be shocked if he TKOd Shogun for the 1st time in his career.


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## Damone

Shogun is going to get his face beaten in. Awful match-up.

Machida will continue to amaze the masses with his swankness.


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## Rygu

Shoguns strategy for this fight im hoping is to close the distance. This is his only chance. Get Machida in the clinch and lay some good knees to Machida's legs to try and take his quickness and footwork away.

If this fight is just a standup fight with both trading, then Machida should win by the 2nd round.

Trying to stand-up with Machida is like trying to beat Tiger Woods in the final round of a major, or catch Adrian Peterson from behind after he breaks through the secondary. Not damn likely.


----------



## the ultimate

I'm desperate for Shogun to win but Machida is a horrible match-up for him. 

Lyoto by submission in the later rounds when Shogun is guessed.


----------



## chrisaldah

rygu said:


> Shoguns strategy for this fight im hoping is to close the distance. This is his only chance. Get Machida in the clinch and lay some good knees to Machida's legs to try and take his quickness and footwork away.
> 
> If this fight is just a standup fight with both trading, then Machida should win by the 2nd round.
> 
> Trying to stand-up with Machida is like trying to beat Tiger Woods in the final round of a major, or catch Adrian Peterson from behind after he breaks through the secondary. Not damn likely.


Unexpected things can happen. YE Yang beat Tiger, some 100 ranked South Korean player, but I'm still hoping that Machida will win this.


----------



## T.Bone

My original thoughts of this fight were that Lyoto was gonna win a hard fought decision, but the more I think about it, the more I see Shogun getting TKO'd. 

Shogun's gonna have to work double hard to land anything on Lyoto and is gonna spend a lot of energy doing so, all the while getting tagged.

I do think Shogun will find some success coming forward and if he can get it to the ground who knows, but somewhere in the mid stages of the fight I see Machida dropping him, overw-whelming him on the ground and getting the TKO. 

I know Shogun never gets dropped but Machida's precision is on another level and that will be the deciding factor in this fight.


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## LCRaiders

Damone said:


> Shogun is going to get his face beaten in. Awful match-up.
> 
> Machida will continue to amaze the masses with his swankness.


Agreed.. There is no way that Shogun can beat Machida. It's a bad match up for Shogun. He's an aggressive fighter and those are the fighters that Machida eats for breakfast..

Machida via whatever he wants :thumbsup:


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## k2monster

LCRaiders said:


> Agreed.. There is no way that Shogun can beat Machida. It's a bad match up for Shogun. He's an aggressive fighter and those are the fighters that Machida eats for breakfast..
> 
> *Machida via whatever he wants :thumbsup:*


i agreee lol
machida knocked out not one but 2 of the most vicious knockout artists (Thiago silva & evans)

i doubt shogun poses much of a threat, i see a knockout in the first round


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## LCRaiders

k2monster said:


> i agreee lol
> machida knocked out not one but 2 of the most vicious knockout artists (Thiago silva & evans)
> 
> i doubt shogun poses much of a threat, i see a knockout in the first round


I doubt Machida will KO Shogun in the rights but the second round sounds kind of reasonable..


----------



## Soojooko

rygu said:


> Shoguns strategy for this fight im hoping is to close the distance. This is his only chance. Get Machida in the clinch and lay some good knees to Machida's legs to try and take his quickness and footwork away.


Nice try but Machida has that covered as well. Nearly all fighters train the clinch and dirty boxing, but typical Lyoto strangeness has him training in Sumo. You can train the clinch all day long with Grecos and Thai fighters, but Lyotos discipline is different. People often talk about the difficulty in getting sparing partners with good enough karate to deal with Machida, but finding a worldclass fighter with wicked JuJitsu and Sumo? O dear.

Thats the biggest obstical against Lyoto. Yes, his skills are exceptional. But we can't underestimate what a closed shop his skill set combination is. The only way to prepare is to actually fight him a few times!


----------



## conmuswri

Lyoto The Dragon Machida, on the other hand, is one of the most elusive and best defensive fighter today, and has shown he is in top form against even the quickest of opponents [Rashad Sugar Evans].

Personally, I see Lyoto taking this one, merely because Shogun is a bit slower. He'll hae to find some way to corner Lyoto Machida in the octagun before unleashing a fury, and that's been proven to be no easy feat.
________________________
Used tennis ball machine for sale | Cheap lobster tennis ball machine | Little Prince, Tennis twist, Wilson and Playmate tennis ball machines review


----------



## RWMenace

My heart says Shogun but my brain tells me Machida.


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## glowboxboy

I chose Shogun by decision in the other thread.I will stick with Shogun, but even though he is healthy his cardio still worries me so therefor he is probably gonna need to finish Lyoto, a guy who is hard to hit, let alone knock out.Machida has fought alot of tough opponents, but Rua has faced an even higher level of competition over the years and I think he is gonna rise to the occasion for this fight; and If he gets taken apart by the Dragon I will buy into all the mma forum jocks saying Rua is washed up.I agree he has not looked great since being in the UFC, but the injury he recieved from Coleman in their Pride fight takes years to recover from.I certainly would not bet juniors college fund on this fight.


----------



## dtreidjr

Yep, no way that Lyoto loses this fight. As someone else said, there is simply no one else in LHW who has this skill set.

Shogun would be absolutely crazy to "bring the fight" to Lyoto. He won't make it past 4 times doing that. Lyoto is the best counter striker in the game and he will catch Rua enough with one of those to hop on him and finish it.


----------



## FredFish1

I had a big post about this a while ago, I'll dig it up later. I think Machida is a really safe bet, Shogun is going to get picked apart and made to look silly this fight. He presents no real danger to Machida.

Shogun throws looping hooks, telegraphed kicks and is wild and reckless. His footwork in the UFC has been flatfooted and his technical head movement is non-exsistant. We don't even know if his Cardio is really back. He was getting tagged with shots from coleman and liddell which were slow. Vs an elite counter-striker? Machida will finish this in the 3rd or 4th. For the first time ever Shogun will get TKO'd. 

I think Machida will shrug off and TD's. And frustrate shogun. In to sloppy mistakes. And no I'm not a Machida nuthugger. Shogun is my favourite fighter, and I see his style walking straight in to Machidas left straight. Good night shogun.

Shogun is really more of a grappler IMO, his clinch and trips and sweeps are what he should really aim for, considering Sokudjou sweeped Machida. On the ground, well I'm not sure. I don't think either of them will manage to sub the other. Ground and Pound it will be.


----------



## Tacx0911

Lyoto will take this fight via decision. I do not see any KO unless Shogun wrecklessly go into Lyoto's range. The best chance Shogun has is taking the fight into the ground, provided he can take Lyoto down. This is a good fight, but may not be the best fight ever for both. This will be a chess game.


----------



## Orangester

Judging by what I've seen from Machida that has turned me into such a fan of his...Machida by 3rd round KO via head kick. I'm calling it.


----------



## Danm2501

I see Machida winning by TKO/KO in the 2nd round, but I'll be cheering on Shogun. Been a big fan of his from his PRIDE days, so seeing him pick up a massive victory over Machida would be awesome. I don't see it happening though if I'm honest.


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## georgie17891

lyoto by tko round 2 or round 3. I see him dominating shogun


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## neoseeker

Shogun by TKO.


----------



## Smiley Face

Great fight. 

I'm gonna go with Lyoto though... His accuracy, speed, and superb counter striking ability will overcome Shogun Rua by the second or third round IMO. Shogun could come in with a game plan which involves being patient, picking his shots, and the usage of low kicks but the last time someone tried to do that it ended bad for them. Shogun can't be too aggressive but he also can't be too hesitant when trying to counter attack Lyoto. (Ala Rashad)

Shogun is an excellent fighter, has an aggressive exciting style that MMA fans rather hardcore or casual LOVE to watch, and owns a whole list of beating the whos who in the LHW Division but in the last 2 years he hasn't looked very good standing or on the ground... 

*1. Overeem was outstriking Shogun in their second fight and even took Shogun down a couple of times before Overeem was taken down himself and KO'd. 

2. Forrest basically tooled him in the second and third rounds, choking Shogun out 15 seconds before the fight made the distance. (Yes, I know Shogun was injured and didn't train properly for the fight, but FYI Forrest also went into the fight with a serious injury too)

3. Coleman... Not much to say about this fight... It was horrible. Shogun still won by TKO but he didn't look good doing it.

4. KO'd Chuck in the first round, but prior to this fight Chuck was 1-3 with 2 davestating (sp?) KOs and got picked apart by Jardine for 3 rounds. This fight showed that Shogun still has that fire in him but it also showed that Chuck hasn't been the same fighter since he lost his championship belt to Rampage back in May of 2007 and should've retired a long time ago. We didn't see Shogun's cardio tested past the first round in this fight.*

Adding to this: I'm not a Shogun Rua hater and I hope he does pull off the W someway, somehow. Machida is just looking so unstoppable at the moment.


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## diablo5597

> Mauricio “Shogun” Rua
> 
> • Third most KO/TKO wins in Pride history
> • Career 4-to-1 strike ratio, 455-103
> • Hasn’t been knocked down in over four years
> • Fifth-highest power-to-jab ratio (min. 500 strikes)
> 
> Shogun’s mystique comes from his years of dominance in Pride. In addition to winning the Middleweight Grand Prix in 2005, Shogun also comes in third all-time with nine Pride wins by way of KO or TKO. The only fighters with more KO/TKO wins in Pride are Wanderlei Silva and Mirko CroCop.
> 
> Over the course of his career, Shogun has proven to be a dominant striker. In his 21 career fights,
> 
> Shogun has outstruck his opponents by more than 4-to-1. He has landed 455 significant strikes while his opponents have landed just 103.
> 
> Shogun has traditionally been the scorer of knockdowns, notching 11 for his career. He has also proven to have a solid chin, only being knocked down himself twice in his whole career and not at all since Antonio Rogerio Nogueira did so more than four years ago. Watch Fight
> 
> While not known as a particularly accurate striker, Shogun is still well above-average with a 46% hit rate (the average fighter’s accuracy is 35%). He has also done much better in his last two fights, hitting on 61% of his strikes against Coleman and Liddell.
> 
> In typical Chute Boxe style, Shogun’s strikes come fast and hard. His striking stats confirm that he doesn’t have much time for jabbing. Among fighters with at least 500 career strikes landed, Shogun has the fifth-highest ratio of power strikes to jabs.


http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=Poll.pollResults&qid=137

Some Shogun stats.


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## neoseeker

Those are impressive stats. Good find.


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## IndependentMOFO

neoseeker said:


> Those are impressive stats. Good find.


Are you from the neoseeker forums? If so, what is your username over there?


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## neoseeker

I'm not. Are you talking neoseeker the computer hardware forum ? I heard about it though.


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## Vale_Tudo

I love Shogun, and I want him to win.
But that agressive Chute Box style doesnt really mix to well (_IMO_) against Machida Karate.

Machida by TKO 2nd round.


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## BigMuscleHead

Just like bodybuilding hard to tell who is peaking at the right time. I hope Shogun wins


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## Carlitoz3

UrbanBounca said:


> This fight won't go to decision. Machida by destruction.


Totally agree!


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## No_Mercy

It's interesting. If this was about four-five years ago Shogun would be the heavy favorite cuz at that time he was top three and Machida was still making a name. Funny thing is he's only 27. If this was with Pride rules and Shogun with his cardio that would be an insane fight. Shogun has a pretty solid chin and very strong strikes. Still think Machida is going to take it though cuz his style plays right into it. But in a twisted way I'd like to see Shogun win so that Anderson Silva can go for the immediate title challenge. Everybody knows that the UFC will let em have it. Rampage out of the picture, Rashad having to fight Thiago Silva, there's nobody in the near future to challenge for it. Wouldn't that be something...


----------



## Smiley Face

reedk said:


> I would like to see BJ Penn and Machida fight again. They did fight once before but not in the UFC. Anyone remember that one? Machida won by decision. Anyone have links to that fight on video?
> 
> mma fanatic
> http://www.hawaiiufc.com


I think its safe to say that we'll never see them fight again. 

Unless its in Japan or something. BJ would get finished.


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## Soojooko

My experience with Shogun is via Youtube. I didn't watch Pride in the day. I was somewhat uneducated.

The Shogun back then was like a bouncing loony. Wierd foot work and very fast at closing the distance and striking. Basically, he looked really interesting and full of dynamics and energy. In the UFC so far he's looked ok. The Chuck fight was pretty good but not like that zipperdee-doo mothafukker bouncing around the ring.

I want to see that guy fight Machida... is that too much to ask? Considering the improvement between the Coleman and Chuck fights, can I expect similar improvement again? I *really *want this fight to be competitive.


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## Jesy Blue

i'm the same field as Soojooko, only seen Rua in video past tense, and present tense he's not that guy from the video; not really worse, but different. 
the same can be said for Machida, but he's better than his past tense videos. much better.


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## JackAbraham34

I've got Shogun by head kick KO in the 4th. :thumb02:


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## Terry77

Narrow and straight punching is the new Karate. I want some flying kicks....NOW!!!


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## Toxic

BigMuscleHead said:


> Just like bodybuilding hard to tell who is peaking at the right time. I hope Shogun wins


Everybody say goodbye to BradySupaFan :bye01:


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## Roflcopter

Shogun KTFO FLEEoto by strikes from mount.


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## Smiley Face

Roflcopter said:


> Shogun KTFO FLEEoto by strikes from mount.












*Cool post bro! *

(Our bet is on, no worries)


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## SSD

Has anyone noticed that Shogun is becoming very, very serious for this fight--more than usual. I know this is big and he knows that by beating Machida, he will always have that aura about him (the first to solve Machida's karate style) and thus, will establish his place in the UFC as a top draw. As a Machida fan, I hope this doesn't happen but I won't be dead-shocked if Shogun just killed Machida.

This is the way I see it--if Machida wins, it will either be by UD or a later-round TKO; and if Shogun wins, it will either be by a first round TKO (overwhelm) or by flukily catching Machida with a punch. 

One thing I hope Machida takes into mind is that Shogun is the best striker that he has fought. Shogun is also one of the best (if not the best) BJJ fighters that Machida has fought as well. So I hope he stays away from the ground and also is extra careful and patient in the stand up.

I hope that he is slightly different from other fights just to throw off Shogun's "master plan." Remember, more and more people are starting to notice how when he moves backwards, he turns left and then counters in a reverse turn (don't know how to make gifs)--be sure to see Shogun try to take advantage of that if Machida doesn't modify it beforehand.


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## Smiley Face

SSD said:


> Has anyone noticed that Shogun is becoming very, very serious for this fight--more than usual. I know this is big and he knows that by beating Machida, he will always have that aura about him (the first to solve Machida's karate style) and thus, will establish his place in the UFC as a top draw. As a Machida fan, I hope this doesn't happen but I won't be dead-shocked if Shogun just killed Machida.
> 
> This is the way I see it--if Machida wins, it will either be by UD or a later-round TKO; and if Shogun wins, it will either be by a first round TKO (overwhelm) or by flukily catching Machida with a punch.
> 
> One thing I hope Machida takes into mind is that Shogun is the best striker that he has fought. Shogun is also one of the best (if not the best) BJJ fighters that Machida has fought as well. So I hope he stays away from the ground and also is extra careful and patient in the stand up.
> 
> I hope that he is slightly different from other fights just to throw off Shogun's "master plan." Remember, more and more people are starting to notice how when he moves backwards, he turns left and then counters in a reverse turn (don't know how to make gifs)--be sure to see Shogun try to take advantage of that if Machida doesn't modify it beforehand.


Agreed. But man... Machida has come too far and worked way too hard in the last 2 years just for it all to fall apart in his first title defense. He'll show Shogun Rua how much he has earned his Championship. Machida will defeat Shogun tomorrow.


*WAR THE DRAGON!*


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## SSD

Smiley Face said:


> Agreed. But man... Machida has come too far and worked way too hard in the last 2 years just for it all to fall apart in his first title defense. He'll show Shogun Rua how much he has earned his Championship. Machida will defeat Shogun tomorrow.
> 
> 
> *WAR THE DRAGON!*


Things falling apart just when you're about to blast off into space has happened to the best of athletes--GSP was embarrassed in his fight against Serra in a match EVERYONE (including hardcore fans) thought GSP would end within 2 rounds. I am hoping that Machida gets another KO/TKO/Sub (hopefully KO, so he can grow his profile among casual fans) but fans of every great fighter go through this period of doubt (even Fedor's fans, Lesnar's fans, etc.). The only group of fans that stand tough are Anderson Silva's fans--for obvious reasons: he is p4p the greatest fighter not only currently but so far in mma history. Fedor is great but he takes a lot of damage and I, along with his other fans, cringe every time he takes a punch or kick.

I left those big red letters in there just so that Shogun fans can make a last minute conversion--maybe through hypnotic advertising.


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## coldcall420

Im goin Machida...:confused05:

Lyoto looks mad focused in the stare down with Shogun....wow


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## swpthleg

He does, but the killer suit didn't hurt.

He's just absorbing energy as it flows into him from the cosmos.


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## coldcall420

swpthleg said:


> He does, but the killer suit didn't hurt.
> 
> He's just absorbing energy as it flows into him from the cosmos.


 
At the weigh in's booboo...:thumbsup:


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## swpthleg

coldcall420 said:


> At the weigh in's booboo...:thumbsup:


I know G. And I love when you call me boo. Promise you won't say it to Corn or DW.


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## khoveraki

SSD said:


> Fedor is great but he takes a lot of damage and I, along with his other fans, cringe every time he takes a punch or kick.


He's the statistically least hit fighter in MMA, infront of Lyoto.



coldcall420 said:


> Im goin Machida...:confused05:
> 
> Lyoto looks mad focused in the stare down with Shogun....wow



Wow agreed, he looks like he took this fight so seriously. I forgot which interview but he recently stated that he's treating this fight as if he's trying to win the title.


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## coldcall420

swpthleg said:


> I know G. And I love when you call me boo. Promise you won't say it to Corn or DW.


 
No prob boo, but if they se they see...




khoveraki said:


> He's the statistically least hit fighter in MMA, infront of Lyoto.
> 
> Wow agreed, he looks like he took this fight so seriously. I forgot which interview but he recently stated that he's treating this fight as if he's trying to win the title.


 
I know bro Im pumped...:thumbsup:


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## Dylanfsd

watch it live, and free here guys

http://www.muftmaza.info/1.html

rep me plz


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## swpthleg

Dylanfsd said:


> watch it live, and free here guys
> 
> http://www.muftmaza.info/1.html
> 
> rep me plz


I guess they did, as you're full green.


----------



## Dylanfsd

awesome.. lulz XD.. 

just thought i'd ask for rep... ya know, for saving you all 44 dollars. XD


----------



## coldcall420

Why am I payin 50 bucks for this????:confused02:


----------



## Dylanfsd

lmao.. yeah, my bad.. it took forever to find a legit stream of the ppv


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## swpthleg

coldcall420 said:


> Why am I payin 50 bucks for this????:confused02:


You're paying??


----------



## Dylanfsd

anyone whos watching my link make sure to say thanks than, it means alot..


----------



## Jesy Blue

okay, main event time!


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## coldcall420

Im watchin in my home office on my computer while watchin in HD on the 50 inch Plasma...:thumbsup: That way i have Lyoto in HD able to re-watch the fight like 100 times to break it down....


----------



## godson

Anderson Silva was teaching Machida something.. did anyone catch that?


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## cdtcpl

80% think a KO, either a lot of people have faith in Shogun or Machida changed a lot of minds about his fight style.


----------



## ZeroPRIDE

inserting Machida nuts in mouth now....


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## coldcall420

godson said:


> Anderson Silva was teaching Machida something.. did anyone catch that?


 
When???


----------



## ZeroPRIDE

in the back. He in was pink


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## godson

right after the cain vs rothwell fight.. it was really quick.. oh my god.. no one caught it....


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## swpthleg

godson said:


> Anderson Silva was teaching Machida something.. did anyone catch that?


I need new drawers.


----------



## khoveraki

Did the fight start yet? Who here is going to have the first breakdown?


----------



## Canadian Psycho

lol, Shogun entering the cage to some techno. 

I'm pretty amped for this one.


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## ZeroPRIDE

great stream starts to mess up NOW!


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## coldcall420

*cracks knuckles*


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## cdtcpl

What are Lyoto and Herb talking about? Can anyone make it out?


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## ZeroPRIDE

no clue


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## Jesy Blue

why are machida's toes taped up?


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## swpthleg

So he doesn't break a toe with his amazing powaaaaaa.


----------



## Guymay

i got feeling shogun tko this


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## cdtcpl

This is the most aggressive Lyoto we have seen. He is also getting caught, this is not starting out well for the Dragon, hopefully he adapts.


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## Jesy Blue

he's already taken more damage in this round than all other fights combined!


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## the ultimate

1-0 Shogun IMO.


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## palmerboy

round 1 shogun anyone ??


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## coldcall420

I dont understand why Joe isnt seeing the strikes Lyoto is landing...


----------



## Terror Kovenant

Very impressive showing by Shogun.


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## xeberus

holyshit.... shogun wow

/impressed

i have shogun winning round 1

whoever wins, machida is clearly no anderson silva.


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## ZeroPRIDE

good first round too tough to score


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## cdtcpl

Lyoto isn't escaping as fast, he needs to get his head back in the game.


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## swpthleg

Very impressed by the touching gloves mid round.


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## Guymay

2-0 shogun imo


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## Emericanaddict

Im thinking the same thing CC i swear I see Lyoto landing bombs and jOE JUST GOES ON ABOUT KICKS IM NOT EVEN NOTICING. LOL....oops caps lock sorry.


----------



## Terror Kovenant

Extremely impressed with Shogun. Machida doesn't seem to be focused.


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## xeberus

shogun winning both 1st and 2nd round

very impressed


----------



## 420atalon

So far so good.


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## UrbanBounca

They've said that Machida has never lost a round, but apparently Shogun killed that streak.


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## ZeroPRIDE

loving the muy thai on display


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## swpthleg

ZeroPRIDE said:


> loving the muy thai on display


as in, rotating the kicks all the way around? that's a MT thing isn't it?

OMG Shogun is charging the counterpuncher. OMFG


----------



## UrbanBounca

Can MMAF start a PBP? I didn't order the PPV, mainly 'cause it's not available in my area, and Sherdog is bogged down too much around main event time.


----------



## ZeroPRIDE

machida needs to be a little bit more agressive


----------



## limba

patience is the key to beating machida.

great fight.
hard to say...

seeing this fight, i can't scream loud enough how bad i want to see mousassi in UFC.


----------



## Guymay

Great Fight so far


----------



## palmerboy

good fight


----------



## Terror Kovenant

2 - 1 Shogun


----------



## Emericanaddict

How does Machida land like 20 shots in a flury yet Joe manages to think Shogun somehow landed just as many in the flurry when he clearly only landed one shot lol. Joe is so friggin biased in this fight and I have now idea why.


----------



## cdtcpl

Lyoto landed like 7 punches but they talk about the 1 Shogun punch, wtf. And Lyoto is starting to look gassed, a lot of first for Lyoto, but not good firsts.


----------



## chrisaldah

Man Rogan needs to get off Shogun's balls. The siding is obvious and getting annoying.


----------



## xeberus

3 rounds for shogun

im am really shocked, i had machida winning this ><


----------



## chrisaldah

I'm seeing a flashback to Forrest/Rampage.


----------



## cdtcpl

The face looks ANGRY!!!


----------



## The Dark Knight

Well I did tell you lot that Machida was human and could be got, but everybody thought it would be a good idea to bandwagon the shit out of him.


----------



## swpthleg

I will always be on that bandwagon anyway, and have been for a long time. I don't care what happens tonight.


----------



## Guymay

3-1 shogun


----------



## limba

rogan is kissing shogun's ass to much.


----------



## Spec0688

machida is losing this


----------



## Jesy Blue

gotta say not as exciting a fight as i thought it would be.


----------



## cdtcpl

I would hate to call this cause while Joe only seems to notice Shoguns strikes the first 3 rounds could be pretty even. But if I were Lyoto I would fight like I needed a KO.


----------



## rabakill

I had a feeling the injuries were why shogun was doing so bad. I think he takes this unless lyoto knocks him out.


----------



## 420atalon

Shoguns fight to lose now.


----------



## xeberus

4-0 shogun imo 

maybe 3rd went to machida, it was close but i gave it to shogun


----------



## Emericanaddict

OMG BODY KICK THAT SUPERMAN PUNCH DONT MEAN SHIAT!!!!!111 Rogan is REALLY on my nerves tonight.


----------



## The Dark Knight

I feel for Machida, though. And I won't shove it down the throat of you guys. It's just maybe some of you guys now know how I felt when I saw Machida take out my boy in May.


----------



## ZeroPRIDE

really disapointed in Machidas performance. Perhaps being champion has gotten to him


----------



## Walker

Holy shit- Machida seems frustrated. Shogun is fighting a great fight.:thumb02:


----------



## swpthleg

I believe the Pride Shogun is in the building.

*sigh*


----------



## MagiK11

Shogun is killing Machida with those leg kicks. Machida is limping like a wounded animal. 

Seems like Shogun is going to win a Unanimous decision.


----------



## Emericanaddict

This sucks im no machida fan but I cannot stand Shogun for some reason. I just wanna see some stability the LHW picture. Nothing is for sure anymore and it's getting old.


----------



## limba

what you say about this?
silva defends 185 title and then goes up to LHW and kicks shogun's ass???

coming soon. only on PPV :thumb02:


----------



## Spec0688

seems like beating machida is simple... have long legs and kick him


----------



## Guymay

limba said:


> what you say about this?
> silva defends 185 title and then goes up to LHW and kicks shogun's ass???
> 
> coming soon. only on PPV :thumb02:


dunno dude .

if the shogun we see tonight go vs a.silva ,i'm not sure silva got it


----------



## the ultimate

Shogun has gotta be the new champ.


----------



## Terror Kovenant

Well ladies and gentlemen.....0 just became 1, i think


----------



## joshua7789

Lmfao about people comparing Lyoto to Silva. With that said, its good to have Shogun back.


----------



## UrbanBounca

Emericanaddict said:


> This sucks im no machida fan but I cannot stand Shogun for some reason. I just wanna see some stability the LHW picture. Nothing is for sure anymore and it's getting old.


What!? Shogun was a 3/1 underdog, and is apparently going to take the UD. I hate a dominant fighter taking over _any_ division. I don't even like watching the MW division anymore, 'cause Silva is so dominant.


----------



## rabakill

UFC 104: Lyoto Machida, what the hell!!


----------



## Spec0688

very bad performance by machida, i was expecting a war but you can say it could be 4-1 for shogun right now..


----------



## Calminian

limba said:


> what you say about this?
> silva defends 185 title and then goes up to LHW and kicks shogun's ass???
> 
> coming soon. only on PPV :thumb02:


Is there any doubt Dana is thinking the same thing right now? In fact, drop the Vitor fight. I don't think they've signed yet.


----------



## Emericanaddict

You guys know what really sucks? When Forrest beats Tito he's gonna get a title shot and another crack at Shogun even though it's undeserved at this point, just because thats how the UFC rolls.


----------



## The Dark Knight

Good fight. Sucks Shogun is champ but good fight. I guess I will have to take back what I said about Shogun being overrated, which also sucks. Meh.


----------



## bedcommando

wonder if anyone in the lhw will be able to degend the belt once they get it... its changing hands like a las vegas hooker on new years eve


----------



## Jesy Blue

most boring title fight ever.... and I'M a Machida fan


----------



## xeberus

shogun = new champ

lol >< glad i didnt bet


----------



## Gonzo

Are they still fighting?


----------



## limba

very tactical fight. technical.
we have a new champion.

DANA for F**K. Bring Mousassi to the UFC.


----------



## Guymay

wtffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff


******* HELL


----------



## The Dark Knight

No/111


----------



## Terror Kovenant

Holy Crap..............


----------



## palmerboy

what a sham


----------



## callme1

What The Hell????????


----------



## 420atalon

Maybe this will wake up a few of the Machida nuthuggers. The guy showed weaknesses in his past fights and tonight Shogun took advantage of those weaknesses.


----------



## Jesy Blue

innnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnteresting........


----------



## bedcommando

wow... robbbbbbbed


----------



## Emericanaddict

Holy Shit Theyve Cloned Cecil Pepils Ten Times Over Adn Replaced All The Judges In The World!!?!?!?!?


----------



## The Dark Knight

tHAT IS FUCKED UP


----------



## the ultimate

That was a horrible decision.


----------



## joshua7789

Bullshit!!!!!


----------



## out 4 the count

no ******* way...

49-46 or 48-47 Shogun...

what the ****!?


----------



## rabakill

Booooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## PimpSasquatch

wow shogun just got robbed.


----------



## Steven831

Wow!!!


----------



## sicc

WOW! What a shit decision. God I am so sick of this guy and his "elusive" style. Such a boring fighter and everyone is on his dick like he's a god or something.


----------



## lagmonkey

WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT?!?!

:confused02:

For once, I gotta agree with the crowd booing.


----------



## MedicWanteD

wow..that was a little shocking.


----------



## Canadian Psycho

Emericanaddict said:


> You guys know what really sucks? When Forrest beats Tito he's gonna get a title shot and another crack at Shogun even though it's undeserved at this point, just because thats how the UFC rolls.


I don't see that at all. I could see UFC setting up Thiago vs. Evans as a Number One Contenders bout, if anything. Especially if Thiago Silva pulls off the victory. I don't think they'll be rushing Forrest back into a title fight.


----------



## 420atalon

What the ****. What a bull shit decision. Even the crowd is booing the hell out of this. Absolutely and utterly disgusting.


----------



## UrbanBounca

Who won the fight?


----------



## Assassin

Shogun got robbed!!!


----------



## Guymay

49-46 shogun


----------



## Smiley Face

What The F*ck Was That...


----------



## JiPi

This is the shitiest decision ever


----------



## Gonzo

Wow! Rua won? How crazy.... this sport is so unpredictable!

Rampage needs to come back and take on Rua!


----------



## k3232x

That is fucked up and I bet on Shogun too.


----------



## The Dark Knight

Omg. That's disgusting. I think i'm going to be sick. I now have NO CHOICE but to become a Shogun fan after that..**** me sideways.


----------



## Roflcopter

What The Hell Is This Shit?!!?? Robbry! Your Little Golden Boy Got Owned! Fuk Out Of Here!


----------



## k3232x

Gonzo said:


> Wow! Rua won? How crazy.... this sport is so unpredictable!
> 
> Rampage needs to come back and take on Rua!


No Shogun lost but he should have won.


----------



## deanmzi

Shogun got robbed - all 3 judges?? wtf


----------



## Rated

Wow, Shogun got robbed IMO.


----------



## callme1

Gonzo said:


> Wow! Rua won? How crazy.... this sport is so unpredictable!
> 
> Rampage needs to come back and take on Rua!


he lost dude, he got robbed.


----------



## BWoods

Total bullshit. Shogun won that fight.


----------



## xeberus

holy ****, they gave it to machida? how the ******* shit could anyone give that fight to machida. **** machida and **** those judges that is ******* bullshit.

:thumbsdown:

way worse than the bisping hamill fight, machida is no champ.


----------



## cdtcpl

Like I said, the first 3 rounds were sketchy and I think Rogan swayed some people. Shogun won the last 2, but for every leg kick Shogun landed Lyoto landed a body kick and a punch.


----------



## Walker

******* bullshit- absolute bullshit. Lyoto lost. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:


----------



## limba

This ******* Decision Is ******* Crap. 
Ufc Just Lost My ******* Respect.
The Crowd Has All The Right To Boo.
It's Not Machida's Fault. But This Decision Sucks Asssss.

**** You Dana. This Is The Real ******* Speach.


----------



## bedcommando

joe sounds/looks pissssssed at the decision


----------



## Spec0688

and dana just sees money falling out of his pocket.... silva vs rua would be a CASH MACHINE


----------



## Blitzz

What was that.......


----------



## RWMenace

I want some of what the judges were smoking.


----------



## MagiK11

THis is the worst decision I have ever seen. I love Lyoto but Shogun won hands down.

The judges should never ref a fight again!


----------



## ZeroPRIDE

420atalon said:


> Maybe this will wake up a few of the Machida nuthuggers. The guy showed weaknesses in his past fights and tonight Shogun took advantage of those weaknesses.


what was that?? lol


----------



## The Dark Knight

Shogun was kicking Machida's arse all over the place. Seriously this is wrong. Too wrong. It's not even funny how wrong that is. If I were Machida I would give that belt to Shogun.


----------



## rabakill

worst decision in the ufc of all time hands down. This will go down in infamy.


----------



## SerJ

No ******* way. **** that shit. No way he lost. It was like 4-1 for shogun. Unbeliveable!!!!


----------



## JiPi

cdtcpl said:


> Like I said, the first 3 rounds were sketchy and I think Rogan swayed some people. Shogun won the last 2, but for every leg kick Shogun landed Lyoto landed a body kick and a punch.


The crowd didn't get to hear Rogan you know...


----------



## truebluefan

OMG, Shogun was robbed


----------



## mohod1982

wtf?????


----------



## Drogo

Not that shocking a decision. I gave Machida the first two rounds for sure. Shogun won 4 and 5 for sure. 3 was razor close and I'm not that surprised to see the judges give it to Machida. I scored it 48-47 Shogun but I'm not surprised to see it 48-47 the other way.

Regardless, Machida looked human. Excellent fight by Rua, had a great gameplan and stuck to it. Very intelligent fight on his part.


----------



## Emericanaddict

Yeah i dont like Shogun but for **** sake the dude won the fight 4-1 rounds IMO. I cant wait to see the Fight Metric report o this fight.


----------



## truebluefan

SerJ said:


> No ******* way. **** that shit. No way he lost. It was like 4-1 for shogun. Unbeliveable!!!!


I had it 4-1 as well.


----------



## ThaFranchise

Worst decision ever


----------



## xbrokenshieldx

That is the most outrageous decision I have ever seen. Unbelievable. I always defend the judges saying it is part of the sport. I am embarassed right now to be a fan of the UFC. Really, really embarassed.

I had it 4-1 Shogun, and I only gave Machida te one because 2 and 3 were so close I just split them.

**** those judges. 

FYI, I am a bigger Machida fan than a Shogun fan.


----------



## coldcall420

I'm not sure what to say about the fight, I have to re watch it, but I will say that i felt like Joe Rogan only pointed out what Shogun was doing, like def crushing Lyoto's legs but there were punches being landed at the same time by Machida and no talk of them.....thats what i think the judges were seeing.....

I have to re watch, and there needs to be a rematch....


----------



## cdtcpl

limba said:


> This ******* Decision Is ******* Crap.
> Ufc Just Lost My ******* Respect.
> The Crowd Has All The Right To Boo.
> It's Not Machida's Fault. But This Decision Sucks Asssss.
> 
> **** You Dana. This Is The Real ******* Speach.


How is this the UFC or DW's fault?


----------



## Terror Kovenant

Honestly, this should have been a draw.


----------



## Guymay

This decision makes Hammil-Bisping looks legit


----------



## Tyson2011

im a HUGE machida fan, but shogun was clearly winning that fight, and got robbed. i see machida falling back down the rankings to number 5 or so, as its been shown that he is still human...


----------



## Smiley Face

That was bullshit.

Shogun won the decision... Not matter how much I love Machida, Shogun Rua is the LHW Champion.

**** you judges!


----------



## Mckeever

Is this shit fixed or what? Worst decision i have ever seen in my entire life. Im actually in shock.


----------



## joshua7789

Any one still thing Lyoto is on Andersons level? LMFAO!!!


----------



## Walker

I like Machida but this was total bullshit- :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:


Shogun was screwed royally. [email protected] this result and decision. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:


----------



## SimplyNate

I don't know I had Shogun at 3 rounds. I'm not sure it was "enough to take the belt" like they claim you need to do. Which I dont see why you need to beat them decisvely. If you beat the champion period you should get the belt.

Shogun should be champion.


----------



## The Horticulturist

Ugh..


----------



## 420atalon

coldcall420 said:


> I'm not sure what to say about the fight, I have to re watch it, but I will say that i felt like Joe Rogan only pointed out what Shogun was doing, like def crushing Lyoto's legs but there were punches being landed at the same time by Machida and no talk of them.....thats what i think the judges were seeing.....
> 
> I have to re watch, and there needs to be a rematch....


Lyoto gave up in this fight. He quit in the 5th round and this decision is absolutely disgusting.

Rogan did acknowledge Shogun more but it was obvious who was getting the worse of the exchanges, for a hint it was the guy that could barely walk at the end of the fight...


----------



## MagiK11

I feel just as robbed as Shogun for paying money for this!

I am really super upset now! If the UFC doesn't fix their refs I will really stop paying for events and just stop watching MMA.

I know that's a bold statement, but if they won't judge fights properly, it's pointless to watch them.

Just bs!


----------



## deanmzi

I will have to go back and watch it again, but I think Shogun won the fight. Maybe Machida did steal 1 round with a late flurry, but other then that not sure he won a round


----------



## slugfest

Wow, the blind folded judges ruined Shoguns chance of holding the belt, I can't believe i just saw that!


----------



## FredFish1

Man I'm a huge Lyoto nut hugger, and he got beat down. **** those judges, gift decision. When did UFC let Cecil peoples bring his family to the judging panel?


----------



## Emericanaddict

coldcall420 said:


> I'm not sure what to say about the fight, I have to re watch it, but I will say that i felt like Joe Rogan only pointed out what Shogun was doing, like def crushing Lyoto's legs but there were punches being landed at the same time by Machida and no talk of them.....thats what i think the judges were seeing.....
> 
> I have to re watch, and there needs to be a rematch....


You know CC i feel the same way to but ultimately I felt Shogun took it based on damage and octagon control aswell as landing atleast as many shots as machida. Machida had ALOT of good flurries but damage and control need to count for something.

Rogan wasnt mentioning ALOT of what machida was doing and who knows maybe I let the bias get to me. im gonna rewatch the fight tomorrow when im awake and then I'll weigh in once again. For now i just dont know what to think. I just feel like Shogun should have gotten the nod even though i dont like the guy...


----------



## deanmzi

well clearly leg kicks were not scored as much by the judges, but even if Lyoto landed some punches, not sure it would be enough to give him the fight


----------



## Mckeever

coldcall420 said:


> I'm not sure what to say about the fight, I have to re watch it, but I will say that i felt like Joe Rogan only pointed out what Shogun was doing, like def crushing Lyoto's legs but there were punches being landed at the same time by Machida and no talk of them.....thats what i think the judges were seeing.....
> 
> I have to re watch, and there needs to be a rematch....


Re watch my ass. Hop off your Machida bandwaggon, got battered and beaten throughout that fight, you dont have to re watch any thing.


----------



## The Dark Knight

Seriously there is something not quite right here. I hate to use the word 'fixed' but come on, this is a bit suspicious. Poor Shogun. 

That said, I guess I kinda got my wish, eh guys? I wanted Shogun to kick Lyoto Machida's arse but not become champion as a result. Guess I should be careful what I wish for..

but in all seriousness, I am really feeling for Shogun here. Never liked the guy but damn did the kid get robbed. Shame on the judges and BOO Machida :angry02:


----------



## Drogo

For everyone saying how bad this decision is, go watch the fight again tomorrow without the sound. Stop listening to Goldberg. Machida countered almost every time Shogun landed a leg kick. 

Again, I scored the fight 48-47 Shogun but I can see how Machida won it. It was a very close fight.


----------



## chaoyungphat

THAT WAS TOTAL BS!!! OMG! I can't believe what just happened. That was the worse judge scoring ever! WOW! I had Shogun winning ALL 5 ROUNDS, no way machida won that fight. NO WAY. The judges were bribed for sure.


----------



## Assassin

Im honestly thinking some of the UFC fights are beginning to be fixed. There was no way Machida legitly won 3 rounds.


----------



## Mjr

There is no question, that is a bad bad decision. Terrible.


----------



## taz1458

Exactly why I dont buy them. I am only getting 105 because Forrest is fighting...**** buying it when the judges rig this sh*t. Shogun is the UFC LHW Champion NOT Lyoto "The Judge Blower" Machida


----------



## chrisaldah

Machida won by one point 48-47 I think. Rogan was over exaggerating things way too much and it scewed our view on Machida's performance. Very close match up. I couldn't even decide who won which rounds.


----------



## sillywillybubba

coldcall420 said:


> I'm not sure what to say about the fight, I have to re watch it, but I will say that i felt like Joe Rogan only pointed out what Shogun was doing, like def crushing Lyoto's legs but there were punches being landed at the same time by Machida and no talk of them.....thats what i think the judges were seeing.....
> QUOTE] i agree with what you are saying....joe and goldie where all about pointing out anything shogun did...and didnt speak of anytime lyoto landed anything...giving the impression of one sided dominance. The judges dont listen to them therefore they see exactly what is happening in the fight rather than what goldie and joe are saying is happening.


----------



## rogi




----------



## DrHouse

Shogun was robbed, guy clearly won the fight. Machida was practically limping out of the octagon at the end of the fight. Non title fight and Shogun would have taken it.


----------



## taz1458

Assassin said:


> Im honestly thinking some of the UFC fights are beginning to be fixed. There was no way Machida legitly won 3 rounds.


I agree. The Griffin/Silva fight began the "fixed" wonders for me. Along with Hammil and Bisping.


----------



## DragonStriker

Very close decision but I had Shogun winning the fight.


----------



## godson

This was a really hard fight to call.. Rematch ASAP...


----------



## TraMaI

I had the rounds 2-2 after the fourth and I think Machida won the last one :\

The key is not listening to Rogan's Bias. Every time Shogun would land a body kick he'd get punched in the face and back off and cover like it hurt him, yet Rogan never said a word about Lyotos counters, so they basically negate each other. Add in the extra knees Lyoto threw, which were much more devastating in the judges eyes than Shogun trying to leg kick Machida into submission and I think that's why they scored it the way they did. I think it could've gone either way honestly and my hat is off to Shogun. He came up with an awesome game plan and gave Machida about as much as he can handle. If he would've been a little more aggressive he would've won that fight easily, but leg kicking someone thousands of times and getting punched in the face everytime you do it won't win you the fight IMO. Great fight none the less, I'm looking forward to a rematch soon.


----------



## BWoods

coldcall420 said:


> I'm not sure what to say about the fight, I have to re watch it, but I will say that i felt like Joe Rogan only pointed out what Shogun was doing, like def crushing Lyoto's legs but there were punches being landed at the same time by Machida and no talk of them.....thats what i think the judges were seeing.....
> 
> I have to re watch, and there needs to be a rematch....


I'm sorry cc420 but I have to disagree. Joe Rogan wasn't just pointing out Shogun's strikes, Lyoto wasn't landing anything that wasn't immediately punished by Rua. Every time he got a kick in Shogun answered with one of his own. The knees were the only thing that he landed that wasn't negated by a Shogun counter. I gave rounds 1,2,4, and 5 to Shogun. The one exchange at the end of round two, although Machida landed 5 or 6 good shots Shogun managed to land 2 to 3 hard shots of his own, one that stumbled Machida.

I am angry and a little disgusted with the CSAC judging staff right now.


----------



## 420atalon

chrisaldah said:


> Machida won by one point 48-47 I think. Rogan was over exaggerating things way too much and it scewed our view on Machida's performance. Very close match up. I couldn't even decide who won which rounds.


I think it becomes pretty obvious when one guy looks like he could run out of the ring and run a marathon while the other guy looks like he is going to limp home and cry.


----------



## M_D

chrisaldah said:


> Machida won by one point 48-47 I think. Rogan was over exaggerating things way too much and it scewed our view on Machida's performance. Very close match up. I couldn't even decide who won which rounds.


In my eyes it was 2nd 3rd and 4th for shogun but eh championship fight need to win it decisively


----------



## Emericanaddict

SHIIIIIAAAATTTTTTT! I just realised why Goldie was doin his Rampage impression of "You need to BEAT the Champion to Become the Champion" That there alone gives so much leeway.

we will probably hear alot more of this talk in the future. The scoring system DEFINITLY needs a revamp just as Joe said tonight.

Notice how MD is doing exactly what im talking about in the post above^^^^^ lol.


----------



## locnott

Safe to say Shogun is back..


----------



## Guymay

Rematch Please


----------



## prolyfic

Apparently people have seemed to not realize that Rua only threw 1, thats 1 shot (the leg kick to the leg or body) at a time. While everytime he threw that Machida threw about 3 or 4 shots that all LANDED. Because Rua hit the harder shot then those 3 or 4 he took are not supposed to score points. Shogun had a great game plan and thhought he could out point Lyoto, he never tried to finish it. Also if you ask me the knees that Rua took to the body was as bad if not worse than the body shots he gave Lyoto. Also the 1st and 2nd could have gone either way, every one was focusing on the fact that Lyoto's ribs were red but did anyone see Shogun's BACK it was lit up just as much and it was over a larger part of his body. Rua may have hit him with quite a few hard shots but he also took quite a bit himself. 

I know that Lyoto's legs were beat up by the end but Rua never tried to finish. He was content throwing 1 leg kick at a time. 

Last thing go back and watch the fight on MUTE so you wont hear Joe chocking on Rua's nuts!!!!


----------



## dontazo

coldcall420 said:


> I'm not sure what to say about the fight, I have to re watch it, but I will say that i felt like Joe Rogan only pointed out what Shogun was doing, like def crushing Lyoto's legs but there were punches being landed at the same time by Machida and no talk of them.....thats what i think the judges were seeing.....
> 
> I have to re watch, and there needs to be a rematch....


u should be dumb not to give that fight to shogun.
so please take out machidas dick out of ur mouth


----------



## Jesy Blue

how about Evans/Shogun for the first shot at the rematch?


----------



## DrHouse

You could see it in Lyoto's face he didn't believe he won the fight, he did not win that fight, but what an interesting one for fight metric.


----------



## 18573

That was bullshit on an astronomical scale. I feel so ******* bad for Shogun right now.


----------



## Mckeever

Any one see Rua crying just then in the dressing room. I actually feel for the guy, what a complete and utter joke of a decision.


----------



## slapshot

At this point its not about Machida or Rua, its about the judging. 

I dont think I even gave Machida a round but if you gave him one or two whatever. How can you score the fight for Machida, you really cant.

They need to rectify this somehow, he needs to get a immediate rematch. The thing is that will give Machida a advantage lol. This was the worst decision Ive ever seen in MMA not just because it was a robbery but because it was for the title.


----------



## Blitzz

Now to get ready for ufc 106, there will be no doubt in that main event.


----------



## rean1mator

was watching dana congratulate shogun after the fight and it sure did look like he was saying "i had you winning the fight" when he shook shoguns hand.

that's a tough bad decision loss for shogun for sure.


----------



## D.P.

:thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

DREAM is gonna be so amazing tonight after this freakin debacle.


----------



## Calminian

I'm a Machida fan, didn't see the fight, and even I'm pissed at the decision.


----------



## locnott

Machida was more suprised than anyone else that he won..


----------



## Smiley Face

I am so pissed at this, something must be done, something must be done.


----------



## SSD

I watched the fight and even I was leaning Shogun. However, don't think of it as if it was some beat-down. Shogun landed a lot of leg kicks but leg kicks are considered important in any judging critera. Also, Lyoto got a good % of shots landed on the face while Shogun missed quite a few. I also think my leaning towards Shogun was based on what the announcers were saying so it could be that we were all surprised that Shogun was landing an equal number of shots as Machida but to us it seemed a lot because Machida hardly gets hit.


----------



## DanMMAFan

Right before the fight started, I looked over to my dad and said "These three referee's are the worst in Mixed Martial Arts".


----------



## Walker

A champion needs to actually do more to win a fight when your opponent is clearly beating you. Lyoto can thank the judges for granting him a "win" since he lost the fight but it wasn't enough for blind judges to give the true winner a decision. 


Great job judges- :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:


----------



## Roflcopter

On this forum, a few nuthuggers are claiming that Joe Rogan influenced our decision. Like we couldn't see for ourselves, Machida getting kicked around the ring, responding with his pitter pat shit that Shogun blocked easily. Also, the what? Thousands in attendance that miraculous turned AGAINST Machida?

Machida! MACHIDA! MACHIDA! 

About round 5 that turns to

SHOGUN! SHOGUN!

Was that Joe Rogan too?


----------



## Terror Kovenant

rean1mator said:


> was watching dana congratulate shogun after the fight and it sure did look like he was saying "i had you winning the fight" when he shook shoguns hand.
> 
> that's a tough bad decision loss for shogun for sure.


Thats exactly what I was thinking. Dana definitely seemed sorry for Shogun


----------



## out 4 the count

prolyfic said:


> Apparently people have seemed to not realize that Rua only threw 1, thats 1 shot (the leg kick to the leg or body) at a time. While everytime he threw that Machida threw about 3 or 4 shots that all LANDED. Because Rua hit the harder shot then those 3 or 4 he took are not supposed to score points. Shogun had a great game plan and thhought he could out point Lyoto, he never tried to finish it. Also if you ask me the knees that Rua took to the body was as bad if not worse than the body shots he gave Lyoto. Also the 1st and 2nd could have gone either way, every one was focusing on the fact that Lyoto's ribs were red but did anyone see Shogun's BACK it was lit up just as much and it was over a larger part of his body. Rua may have hit him with quite a few hard shots but he also took quite a bit himself.
> 
> I know that Lyoto's legs were beat up by the end but Rua never tried to finish. He was content throwing 1 leg kick at a time.
> 
> Last thing go back and watch the fight on MUTE so you wont hear Joe chocking on Rua's nuts!!!!


Whilst I still think Shogun won, you make some very good points m8.

Rogan hardly ever mentioned the punch combos Machida was landing on Shogun's head.


----------



## SimplyNate

I think I'll stop ordering events for a while. Just watch them online.


----------



## M_D

slapshot said:


> At this point its not about Machida or Rua, its about the judging.
> 
> I dont think I even gave Machida a round but if you gave him one or two whatever. How can you score the fight for Machida, you really cant.
> 
> They need to rectify this somehow, he need to get a immediate rematch. The thing is that will give Machida a advantage again lol. This was the worst decision Ive ever seen in MMA not just because it was a robbery but because it was for the title.


I gave the first round to machida for the knees in the begining everything else in that round was even, same with teh last round I thought machida did just one or to good punches that swayed that round in my mind, the second 3rd and 4th I gave to shogun but eh..im not a judge


----------



## locnott

rean1mator said:


> was watching dana congratulate shogun after the fight and it sure did look like he was saying "i had you winning the fight" when he shook shoguns hand.
> 
> that's a tough bad decision loss for shogun for sure.


I saw that also and thought the same thing..


----------



## cabby

******* robbed! Bullshit call, unanimous even lol?!


----------



## thuggedout

For all of you people saying that Joe Rogan and Mike Goldberg were biased towards Shogun...I'm pretty sure that their commentary wasn't played live throughout the arena, so that the thousands of fans who RIGHTLY booed that decision could be swayed by the bias in commentary


----------



## deadmanshand

I watched that fight without sound and Shogun won that fight. Hands down. If you believe that Lyoto won that fight you are an idiot. He landed a fraction of the shots he threw. Shogun landed elbows, knees, punches, body kicks and a metric ass load of leg kicks. Lyoto did nothing besides one flurry. Not a god damn thing. This was bullshit.


----------



## slapshot

Jesy Blue said:


> how about Evans/Shogun for the first shot at the rematch?


News Flash, if you beat a fighter you shouldn't have to fight someone else to get a rematch and Shogun clearly won. 

Im still a bit shocked TBH.


----------



## limba

i woke up at 4 am for this fight.
i am dissapointed.
maybe we are not "experts" like those judges.
but i think we watch more fights than they do and we are not stupid.
shogun had a great game plan and the most important thing: patience.

machida took one round.
hatts off to shogun for beeing so humble in defeat although he had all the reasons in the world to step out off the cage right after the announcement of the decision.

i just can't think though at one thing.
having such a controversial decision makes a rematch much more interesting for the fans.
now everywone wants a rematch.


----------



## ZeroPRIDE

prolyfic said:


> Apparently people have seemed to not realize that Rua only threw 1, thats 1 shot (the leg kick to the leg or body) at a time. While everytime he threw that Machida threw about 3 or 4 shots that all LANDED. Because Rua hit the harder shot then those 3 or 4 he took are not supposed to score points. Shogun had a great game plan and thhought he could out point Lyoto, he never tried to finish it. Also if you ask me the knees that Rua took to the body was as bad if not worse than the body shots he gave Lyoto. Also the 1st and 2nd could have gone either way, every one was focusing on the fact that Lyoto's ribs were red but did anyone see Shogun's BACK it was lit up just as much and it was over a larger part of his body. Rua may have hit him with quite a few hard shots but he also took quite a bit himself.
> 
> I know that Lyoto's legs were beat up by the end but Rua never tried to finish. He was content throwing 1 leg kick at a time.
> 
> Last thing go back and watch the fight on MUTE so you wont hear Joe chocking on Rua's nuts!!!!


i will have to rewatch as i dont think machida won and this is comeing from a nutsucker. Rogan was WAY to bias to Shogun and was sickening though.


----------



## GMK13

i give machida 1 round maybe 2 but shogun def won that fight.


----------



## Cal2002

Personally, I am a HUGE fan of Machida, and, watching it with friends, we all felt like Machida was losing. Everything that he did was answered back by Shogun, and vice-versa. The difference being that Shogun landed the more powerful shots (or so it seemed) as well as all those devastating leg kicks. I think I will have to watch this fight alot more to see if Machida really did win, but I wouldn't be suprised if this was a gift decision...


----------



## Intermission

shogun should have won... wtf just happened?


----------



## Rick The Impelr

Yeah it was a bit dubious, BUT as the cliche goes, NEVER LEAVE IT IN THE HANDS OF THE JUDGES. Or else fighters run that risk of getting 'robbed'. Knock the guy out or sub the guy and you never have to worry about such things. Shogun based on attempts and pushing it won this fight, but he failed to finish i.e. KO.


----------



## D.P.

I still can't believe what I just witnessed. Seriously. 

I don't even know what to say right now.


----------



## BrianRClover

Facts:

Machida Lost, but he's the champ still... and nothing will change that

Joe Rogan needs to just suck Shogun's dick and get it over with

I believe there was something wrong with Machida before that fight even started, physcially or mentally

Shogun gained a lot of my respect, had the perfect gameplan, and I believe he deserves a second shot, immediately


----------



## machidaisgod

Machida wonwith precision head striking, all Rua did waskick likea girl. Made 20 easy dimes, Crystal anyone?????...mma is the best, Jerry, the BEST


----------



## Emericanaddict

Also I would like to point out that they do sell headsets to the crowd so they can hear the commentary. I would know since ive bought one last year in Birmingham and will again this year in manchester. Makes a damn good cheap souvenier...so there goes that theory.


----------



## Nipples10

That was the Shogun from Pride, he is back.


----------



## Emericanaddict

BrianRClover said:


> Facts:
> 
> Machida Lost, but he's the champ still... and nothing will change that
> 
> Joe Rogan needs to just suck Shogun's dick and get it over with
> 
> I believe there was something wrong with Machida before that fight even started, physcially or mentally
> 
> Shogun gained a lot of my respect, had the perfect gameplan, and I believe he deserves a second shot, immediately


Nominated for most truth filled post of the night:thumb02:


----------



## M_D

Emericanaddict said:


> SHIIIIIAAAATTTTTTT! I just realised why Goldie was doin his Rampage impression of "You need to BEAT the Champion to Become the Champion" That there alone gives so much leeway.
> 
> we will probably hear alot more of this talk in the future. The scoring system DEFINITLY needs a revamp just as Joe said tonight.
> 
> Notice how MD is doing exactly what im talking about in the post above^^^^^ lol.


:confused02: I gave it to Shogun :confused02: I was routing for machida. but its the job of the challenger to beat the champ the champ just has to survive so that was what I was saying that they need not to leave it up to the judges for I have seen it the past that they favor champs and they even said it during the fight. I am mad about the decision myself and actually lost money on the fight but (even though I was routing for machida the odds were to good lol) but yeah I think it was shoguns job to decisively win the fight he left it up in the air to much I guess in the judges eyes so they sided with the champ, if you leave close to being a tied round they will decide with the champ.


----------



## Intermission

yeah well shogun from pride should be the champ


----------



## rean1mator

aside from the piss poor judging that was one AMAZING fight. and the quality of the technique used by both fighters and the level of fighting that was just witnessed is sadly getting deeply buried under the questionable decision.


----------



## Smiley Face

Intermission said:


> yeah well shogun from pride should be the champ


This Canada, this.


----------



## ZeroPRIDE

BrianRClover said:


> Facts:
> 
> Machida Lost, but he's the champ still... and nothing will change that
> 
> Joe Rogan needs to just suck Shogun's dick and get it over with
> 
> I believe there was something wrong with Machida before that fight even started, physcially or mentally
> 
> Shogun gained a lot of my respect, had the perfect gameplan, and I believe he deserves a second shot, immediately


I agree with everything you said. This wasnt the Machida i saw in all his previous fights. Somthing wasnt right.


----------



## the ultimate

Instant rematch is definitely deserved. Shogun proved that Machida can be defeated and although he won tonight, hopefully he wins more decisively next time.


----------



## Walker

prolyfic said:


> Apparently people have seemed to not realize that Rua only threw 1, thats 1 shot (the leg kick to the leg or body) at a time. While everytime he threw that Machida threw about 3 or 4 shots that all LANDED. Because Rua hit the harder shot then those 3 or 4 he took are not supposed to score points. Shogun had a great game plan and thhought he could out point Lyoto, he never tried to finish it. Also if you ask me the knees that Rua took to the body was as bad if not worse than the body shots he gave Lyoto. Also the 1st and 2nd could have gone either way, every one was focusing on the fact that Lyoto's ribs were red but did anyone see Shogun's BACK it was lit up just as much and it was over a larger part of his body. Rua may have hit him with quite a few hard shots but he also took quite a bit himself.
> 
> I know that Lyoto's legs were beat up by the end but Rua never tried to finish. He was content throwing 1 leg kick at a time.
> 
> Last thing go back and watch the fight on MUTE so you wont hear Joe chocking on Rua's nuts!!!!



I actually watched most of the fight on mute since I couldn't get my headphones to work and I still think Shogun won without the Rogan nuthuggery that supposedly went on. Machida was completely frustrated and never was in control at all in the fight- Shogun implemented his gameplan was never in danger and controlled the fight. Rogan- aside Shogun won the fight- only Cecil Peoples can be proud of this decision.


----------



## K R Y

I'm really feeling for Shogun right now, he must be devastated. I'm big Lyoto fan, but jesus he can't honoustly think he won. 

I also think there was something up as he entered the ring. Alot of talk between him and Herb, and icing his elevated legs after the first round??

Either way, Shogun won and looked great. Insta rematch.


----------



## D.P.

One good thing to come out of that was what I saw from Shogun. It brought back memories. Memories of a certain organization. A certain organization that I am missing more and more everyday.


----------



## hitmachine44

Emericanaddict said:


> Also I would like to point out that they do sell headsets to the crowd so they can hear the commentary. I would know since ive bought one last year in Birmingham and will again this year in manchester. Makes a damn good cheap souvenier...so there goes that theory.


Yeah, every person there had a head set on and Joe Rogan influenced all of them. :sarcastic12:


----------



## Smiley Face

KryOnicle said:


> I'm really feeling for Shogun right now, he must be devastated. I'm big Lyoto fan, but jesus he can't honoustly think he won.
> 
> I also think there was something up as he entered the ring. Alot of talk between him and Herb, and icing his elevated legs after the first round??
> 
> Either way, Shogun won and looked great. Insta rematch.


Either give Shogun a rematch or just give him the Championship ASAP.


----------



## SimplyNate

Anyone else find it strange that the Fertitta's own casinos that likely get a large amount of bets for UFC events?


----------



## Danomac

Doesn't really matter. The judges had the best seat in the house and saw things much different than we did. That's why they judge and we don't. Shogun looked great. Machida not so much.

Shogun essentially threw a right kick the whole time. His right leg must be a noodle right now.

Machida punched him a lot but also Shogun opened the door to truly beating him in the future. 

I personally think Dana White isn't stupid and will grant an immediate rematch. It makes sense and people will pay to see... well, it depends on the rest of the card to be honest. I thought it was a really lackluster card. Some fights were really bad.

Decent card I guess with a wicked ending that will cause people to lose their shit for a LOOOONG time. I love it.


----------



## M_D

SimplyNate said:


> Anyone else find it strange that the Fertitta's own casinos that likely get a large amount of bets for UFC events?


so...they would have wanted shogun to win so they would have made more money


----------



## Emericanaddict

M_D said:


> :confused02: I gave it to Shogun :confused02: I was routing for machida. but its the job of the challenger to beat the champ the champ just has to survive so that was what I was saying that they need not to leave it up to the judges for I have seen it the past that they favor champs and they even said it during the fight. I am mad about the decision myself and actually lost money on the fight but (even though I was routing for machida the odds were to good lol) but yeah I think it was shoguns job to decisively win the fight he left it up in the air to much I guess in the judges eyes so they sided with the champ, if you leave close to being a tied round they will decide with the champ.


It was more of a joke dude nothing personal lol. But i do have to adisagree abit. If you win a fight you win a fight. IMO it was pretty dominant(Atleast before i take a second look) but going on what ive seen so far Shogun pretty much handled machida all night. 

Boxing pulled that for years to keep their inflated champs at the top but this is MMA and the sport and fighters need to be treated with respect and made up rules shouldnt even enter the heads of the judges.

There is way to much personal oppinion in the judging these days. We need to lay down some better criteria for the judges to go off of because everyone is a bit biased and that bias needs to be taken away in these circumstances.


----------



## SimplyNate

Still extremely shady lol.


----------



## MagiK11

SimplyNate said:


> Anyone else find it strange that the Fertitta's own casinos that likely get a large amount of bets for UFC events?


That is something to think about, and definitely food for thought. IF I ever find out it has anything to do with decisions I'll boycott the UFC for sure.


----------



## R.Doria

Not even lyoto belive that he won the fight!
thats was just dumb!
like wtf!
Lyoto won the 3 th round only n lost all the others! that is just ridiculous!
people say that shogun didnt tried to finish the fight but how about lyoto who just ran from the fight like always but this time he didnt konock the guy down or anything!
i am really disapointed and sab about it;;


----------



## xbrokenshieldx

Rick The Impelr said:


> Yeah it was a bit dubious, BUT as the cliche goes, NEVER LEAVE IT IN THE HANDS OF THE JUDGES. Or else fighters run that risk of getting 'robbed'. Knock the guy out or sub the guy and you never have to worry about such things. Shogun based on attempts and pushing it won this fight, but he failed to finish i.e. KO.


See, normally I agree with you. But Shogun did EVERYTHING to win that fight. He literally implemented a perfect gameplan, was aggressive, was the better counter fighter, pushed the pace, and the fight went where he wanted it to go. 

The real winner of tonight.... Strikeforce... I for one am not ordering another UFC for a long time. I am not going to pay 45 bucks for that bull shit.


----------



## The_Nightmare

i honestly can't see how machida won that fight. it was either a draw or a shogun win. ill need to watch it again before i decide which of the two. joe rogan really annoys me though and mike goldberg will just copy whatever he says. i think you can tell easily when they favour a particular fighter. 

joe rogan talked the whole night as if he discovered shogun and nobody knew who he was. and im not having the machida fanboy shite. joe rogan kept saying "great kick by shogun" when in reality machida landed an equally hard punch or kick at the same time. 

but still a poor decision. its quite annoying staying up so late just to watch a fight become victim to a poor judging decision.


----------



## Godzuki

I gave Shogun every round, it could be argued that Machida won the third, but that still makes it 4 rounds to one IMO! I can barely contain the indignant rage I'm feeling right now. I want to hurt those judges, so very, very badly. I want to tie them to a chair and make them re-watch the fight and every time Shogun hits Machida I would kick them in the face shouting "THERE! DO YOU SEE IT NOW F***FACE?!!" :fight02:

I think I need to go lie down. There's a possibility I may be taking all this far too personally/seriously.


----------



## TraMaI

MagiK11 said:


> That is something to think about, and definitely food for thought. IF I ever find out it has anything to do with decisions I'll boycott the UFC for sure.


NSAC (in this case the CSAC) governs fights, not the UFC. It has nothing to do wiht it. And besides I'm sure WAY more people took the easy bet on that fight.


----------



## Emericanaddict

hitmachine44 said:


> Yeah, every person there had a head set on and Joe Rogan influenced all of them. :sarcastic12:


Dont be a prick Im not saying that. But to disregard the fact that people there WERE able to hear what we heard is stupid. How do you think a chant starts? One person shouts a name and then others join in and with the headset being one of the cheapest things you can buy at the event, you have to realize MANY memebers of the HUGE audience would have made the purchase.

Almost everyone had one in Birmingham (not litterally but a bunch of peeps did) You have to take all facts into account when building a strong argument and i was just bringing another one into light. Im not saying it was the determining factor but it needs to be noted.:thumbsup:


----------



## cdtcpl

SimplyNate said:


> Anyone else find it strange that the Fertitta's own casinos that likely get a large amount of bets for UFC events?


Seeing as how the UFC has absolutely NOTHING to do with paying the refs, I say no. Also if I am correct you cannot bet on the UFC in their casino's by their own choice.


----------



## Mjr

hahaha oh man, this is going to be a big shit fight for weeks.

Shogun should be champion, he deserved it.

Hopefully lots of people on this forum can learn a lesson about jumping on bandwagons to early. 

Exhibit A - Machida
Exhibit B - Brock


----------



## SimplyNate

TraMaI said:


> NSAC (in this case the CSAC) governs fights, not the UFC. It has nothing to do wiht it. And besides I'm sure WAY more people took the easy bet on that fight.


Including very powerful friends of the Fertittas! I was half joking but it still seems rather shady.


----------



## Rick The Impelr

xbrokenshieldx said:


> See, normally I agree with you. But Shogun did EVERYTHING to win that fight. He literally implemented a perfect gameplan, was aggressive, was the better counter fighter, pushed the pace, and the fight went where he wanted it to go.
> 
> The real winner of tonight.... Strikeforce... I for one am not ordering another UFC for a long time. I am not going to pay 45 bucks for that bull shit.


I agree with you on the front of the PPV fights lately (I know this is off topic, but it seems as if the free Spike TV fight cards have been WAY more better than the PPV ones)

I know that in some of the other organizations (overseas), Shogun wins this fight simply on the fact that he landed better and was aiming with agression (take down attempts, moving forward, and the rib kicks landing). Showing a will to win is a big thing IMHO.


----------



## Emericanaddict

To tired to think about this anymore peace out guys ill rewatch in the morning.


----------



## M_D

MagiK11 said:


> That is something to think about, and definitely food for thought. IF I ever find out it has anything to do with decisions I'll boycott the UFC for sure.


ok again take into account that wayyy more people bet on machida even with the odds they way they were the casinos would have made way more money if shogun won the fight


----------



## palmerboy

Machida has lost respect all over the world according to forums/twitter etc. he should be embarrassed imo


----------



## SimplyNate

M_D said:


> ok again take into account that wayyy more people bet on machida even with the odds they way they were the casinos would have made way more money if shogun won the fight


It's not how much was bet on Machida but who bet on it. *Cough* the mob *Cough*. lol


----------



## ZeroPRIDE

Mjr180 said:


> hahaha oh man, this is going to be a big shit fight for weeks.
> 
> Shogun should be champion, he deserved it.
> 
> Hopefully lots of people on this forum can learn a lesson about jumping on bandwagons to early.
> 
> Exhibit A - Machida
> Exhibit B - Brock


lots of people on the forum have been a Machida fan for a long time...


----------



## slapshot

Machida landed very few punches what one strike for Rua's 10? just becasue they are mostly leg kicks means nothing. He did not counter every leg kick BTW and a lot of the time when he did he missed. 

This is what happens when you let boxing judges score MMA fights. Im so tired of these mistakes.


----------



## zath the champ

I watched the fight with several drunk people at the house. I didn't really hear the commentary, but the fight seemed fairly even for most of what I watched.

I gave it to Shogun (3 /2) but wasn't all that surprised by the decision. 

Feels like more was expected from Machida and less from Shogun; hence the shock.

Honestly, I don't want to watch a rematch simply because it felt like a 25 minute point sparring match. 

I'll re-watch it tonight though because of the way most feel about the fight.

Anyone know about how long we need to wait for Fightmetric to get stats up? I'd like to see what the final stats were.
.


----------



## Poland

Don't know if someone's thrown this ditty on, as I've read only the last several posts. Anyway, the fat comic book store owner on Simpons would say "Worst . . . Decision . . . Ever!"

:confused05:


----------



## Calminian

All the Sherdog guys picked Machida to win this, and all of them scored the fight for Rua. 

Jordan Breen scores the round 10-9 Rua (48-47 Rua)
Brian Knapp scores the round 10-9 Rua (48-47 Rua)
Mike Fridley scores the round 10-9 Rua (50-45 Rua)


----------



## CroCopPride

**** that 
UFC is a ******* joke
man im so pissed 

i dont see how he won 
ill give him the 3rd round
such bullshit


----------



## Mjr

ZeroPRIDE said:


> lots of people on the forum have been a Machida fan for a long time...


Yeah there is a few, CC and co, thats cool.

But after a few knockouts there were 300 other people blindly following the "Machida will never be beaten" bandwagon

I posted in a thread before the fight and mentioned that people shouldn't discount Shogun, the reaction I got was like I just clubbed a seal.


----------



## Crester

This decision was complete BULLSHIT!!!

How can this even happen?!?!?


----------



## MaZZacare

Shogun WON he was the aggressor and yeah MAchida fights defensivly but Shogun did mroe damage to the legs


----------



## zath the champ

Poland said:


> Don't know if someone's thrown this ditty on, as I've read only the last several posts. Anyway, the fat comic book store owner on Simpons would say "Worst . . . Decision . . . Ever!"
> 
> :confused05:


haha

So was it really that bad? I mean damn, I was distracted while the fight was on but the reaction feels like Bisping/Hamillx10.


----------



## Calminian

CroCopPride said:


> **** that
> UFC is a ******* joke
> man im so pissed
> 
> i dont see how he won
> ill give him the 3rd round
> such bullshit


The UFC has nothing to do with the judges.


----------



## R.Doria

The truth is that Lyoto sells much more than Shogun.
Lyoto is kind of a unic character diferent from Shogun another muay thai fighter...
Lyoto is everywhere since the rashads fight and the UFC is making a lot of money on his image an image that dana help to built so the dragon losing over his first belt defense is something unacceptable for danas plans...
The dragon is a great fighter... but he clearly lost!


----------



## Roflcopter

Like I said, unless you score blocked punches, Machida lost that fight clearly.

Machida didn't even land more WEAK strikes. Not only did Shogun do more damage, he was just the all around aggressor. Machida did nothing.


----------



## Smiley Face

zath the champ said:


> haha
> 
> So was it really that bad? I mean damn, I was distracted while the fight was on but the reaction feels like Bisping/Hamillx10.


x10? Not even close. x5000 you mean.

Shogun won that fight by leg kicks, speed, controlled aggression, and a smart gameplan. Unfortunately it is in the books so there's nothing we can do about it unless Shogun gets a rematch or has to get a few wins first.

Shame. I hope Lyoto can do better in his second title defense.


----------



## prolyfic

Its funny but the only decisive rounds were 3,4,5. With 3 going to Lyoto and 4 and 5 going to Shogun, I guess that can all be disputed but this seemed pretty cut and dry to me. None of those were 10-8 rounds so that leaves the deciding rounds 1 and 2. 

These could have gone either way. I just re watched them, on mute by the way, and I scored them for Machida, Shogun did land some hard shots but not nearly as much as Machida, pitter patty as they may have been. So for all yall that know hoe judging can go in close fights can you honestly say that Rua so dominated Lyoto in rounds 1 and 2 for this to be a BS decision.

I agree that Lyoto looked the more worse for wear but that doesnt earn Rua an extra round. I personally thought that the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round went to Lyoto and I am sure some might say maybe 2 but not 1 or maybe 1 but not 2. The point is if they weren't definitive rounds and those are the rounds that would've have swayed it to either fighter then this was not the horror story yall are making it out to be.


----------



## MagiK11

Calminian said:


> The UFC has nothing to do with the judges.


They need to get new judges, and change their fucked up system though.

That fight was such BS, and how many times have we seen a decision where 98% of us thought it was complete bull? Most of the times we're torn but this is proof that the judging system is flawed and if it's not fixed I'll just take up another sport, or start watching Strikeforce, and dream more.


----------



## andy_olinyk

machida was all out of fire when joe was talking to him,he had defeat in his voice, the dragon got slayed. quite honestly i was just waiting for machidas legs to split open.


----------



## No_Mercy

prolyfic said:


> Its funny but the only decisive rounds were 3,4,5. With 3 going to Lyoto and 4 and 5 going to Shogun, I guess that can all be disputed but this seemed pretty cut and dry to me. None of those were 10-8 rounds so that leaves the deciding rounds 1 and 2.
> 
> These could have gone either way. I just re watched them, on mute by the way, and I scored them for Machida, Shogun did land some hard shots but not nearly as much as Machida, pitter patty as they may have been. So for all yall that know hoe judging can go in close fights can you honestly say that Rua so dominated Lyoto in rounds 1 and 2 for this to be a BS decision.
> 
> I agree that Lyoto looked the more worse for wear but that doesnt earn Rua an extra round. I personally thought that the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round went to Lyoto and I am sure some might say maybe 2 but not 1 or maybe 1 but not 2. The point is if they weren't definitive rounds and those are the rounds that would've have swayed it to either fighter then this was not the horror story yall are making it out to be.


Lyoto landed a lot more shots than Rua. Rua landed mainly leg kicks while Lyoto mixed it up with lots of knees, crosses, leg kicks as well. Lyoto rocked Shogun a couple of times too and defended all of his takedowns. So yah Lyoto edged out the win although initially based on the wear and tear thought Rua won. Glad to see Shogun back though in top form.


----------



## The_Nightmare

no point in trying to make arguments that shogun won around what the crowd thought. its pretty obvious the crowd just support the most aggressive fighter. which on the night was shogun. remember this is the same crowd that boo when a fight spends more than a few seconds on the ground. this dosent mean they can't be right sometimes. it just means their opinion isn't particularly valuable.


----------



## deadmanshand

prolyfic said:


> Its funny but the only decisive rounds were 3,4,5. With 3 going to Lyoto and 4 and 5 going to Shogun, I guess that can all be disputed but this seemed pretty cut and dry to me. None of those were 10-8 rounds so that leaves the deciding rounds 1 and 2.
> 
> These could have gone either way. I just re watched them, on mute by the way, and I scored them for Machida, Shogun did land some hard shots but not nearly as much as Machida, pitter patty as they may have been. So for all yall that know hoe judging can go in close fights can you honestly say that Rua so dominated Lyoto in rounds 1 and 2 for this to be a BS decision.
> 
> I agree that Lyoto looked the more worse for wear but that doesnt earn Rua an extra round. I personally thought that the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round went to Lyoto and I am sure some might say maybe 2 but not 1 or maybe 1 but not 2. The point is if they weren't definitive rounds and those are the rounds that would've have swayed it to either fighter then this was not the horror story yall are making it out to be.


While most things here are simply opinion yours is definitely wrong. Shogun landed more strikes, did more damage, controlled the pace, and was never even vaguely in danger. I can see giving Lyoto round three but nothing else. Lyoto lost plain and simple. He looked tired and confused throughout that fight. Shogun won.


----------



## Roflcopter

prolyfic said:


> Its funny but the only decisive rounds were 3,4,5. With 3 going to Lyoto and 4 and 5 going to Shogun, I guess that can all be disputed but this seemed pretty cut and dry to me. None of those were 10-8 rounds so that leaves the deciding rounds 1 and 2.
> 
> These could have gone either way. I just re watched them, on mute by the way, and I scored them for Machida, Shogun did land some hard shots but not nearly as much as Machida, pitter patty as they may have been. So for all yall that know hoe judging can go in close fights can you honestly say that Rua so dominated Lyoto in rounds 1 and 2 for this to be a BS decision.
> 
> I agree that Lyoto looked the more worse for wear but that doesnt earn Rua an extra round. I personally thought that the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round went to Lyoto and I am sure some might say maybe 2 but not 1 or maybe 1 but not 2. The point is if they weren't definitive rounds and those are the rounds that would've have swayed it to either fighter then this was not the horror story yall are making it out to be.


Exhibit A.

MMA fan.

Quick question, have you ever watch boxing before?


----------



## CroCopPride

cecil peoples is a **** tard


----------



## Calminian

prolyfic said:


> Its funny but the only decisive rounds were 3,4,5. With 3 going to Lyoto and 4 and 5 going to Shogun, I guess that can all be disputed but this seemed pretty cut and dry to me. None of those were 10-8 rounds so that leaves the deciding rounds 1 and 2.
> 
> These could have gone either way. I just re watched them, on mute by the way, and I scored them for Machida, Shogun did land some hard shots but not nearly as much as Machida, pitter patty as they may have been. So for all yall that know hoe judging can go in close fights can you honestly say that Rua so dominated Lyoto in rounds 1 and 2 for this to be a BS decision.
> 
> I agree that Lyoto looked the more worse for wear but that doesnt earn Rua an extra round. I personally thought that the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round went to Lyoto and I am sure some might say maybe 2 but not 1 or maybe 1 but not 2. The point is if they weren't definitive rounds and those are the rounds that would've have swayed it to either fighter then this was not the horror story yall are making it out to be.


It's interesting, J Breene was just saying the same thing. He scored it for Rua, but was saying that some of those rounds were very indecisive.


----------



## Roflcopter

No_Mercy said:


> Lyoto landed a lot more shots than Rua. Rua landed mainly leg kicks while Lyoto mixed it up with lots of knees, crosses, leg kicks as well. *Lyoto rocked Shogun a couple of times too *and defended all of his takedowns. So yah Lyoto edged out the win although initially based on the wear and tear thought Rua won. Glad to see Shogun back though in top form.


I would say this nullified your post, but everything else about it was wrong too so I wont bother.


----------



## machidaisgod

prolyfic said:


> Its funny but the only decisive rounds were 3,4,5. With 3 going to Lyoto and 4 and 5 going to Shogun, I guess that can all be disputed but this seemed pretty cut and dry to me. None of those were 10-8 rounds so that leaves the deciding rounds 1 and 2.
> 
> These could have gone either way. I just re watched them, on mute by the way, and I scored them for Machida, Shogun did land some hard shots but not nearly as much as Machida, pitter patty as they may have been. So for all yall that know hoe judging can go in close fights can you honestly say that Rua so dominated Lyoto in rounds 1 and 2 for this to be a BS decision.
> 
> I agree that Lyoto looked the more worse for wear but that doesnt earn Rua an extra round. I personally thought that the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round went to Lyoto and I am sure some might say maybe 2 but not 1 or maybe 1 but not 2. The point is if they weren't definitive rounds and those are the rounds that would've have swayed it to either fighter then this was not the horror story yall are making it out to be.


Hey what are you talking with big words and that logic stuff, this forum is for cry babieswho know evrything


----------



## deadmanshand

No_Mercy said:


> Lyoto landed a lot more shots than Rua. Rua landed mainly leg kicks while Lyoto mixed it up with lots of knees, crosses, leg kicks as well. Lyoto rocked Shogun a couple of times too and defended all of his takedowns. So yah Lyoto edged out the win although initially based on the wear and tear thought Rua won. Glad to see Shogun back though in top form.


Shogun got rocked? What fight were you watching? WHat were you smoking while watching it?

Machida landed half the shots Shogun did. Shogun landed more knees, punches, elbows, and leg kicks than Machida even thought of throwing.


----------



## Roflcopter

I also highly doubt Lyoto outlanded Rua in the round one where Shogun pressed him up against the cage and landed several knees to the thigh and body. The only way you could've scored either round 1 or round 2 to Lyoto, is if you were 

1: Scoring blocked shots.
2: Felt Lyoto was more effective in striking.

Either case, you are a drunk moron.


----------



## Roflcopter

The only round Machida won. Was the round he stole off a flurry that he ended up getting stunned at the end of the combination.

He basically hit Shogun's elbows in his gay little pitter pat shit, then gets caught clean then clinches. I had Lyoto being shut out. But thats only because I score fights logically.


----------



## The_Nightmare

machidaisgod said:


> Hey what are you talking with big words and that logic stuff, this forum is for cry babieswho know evrything


the fact that your name is machidaisgod makes me question how neutral your post is haha but i thought your comment was quite funny.


----------



## Smiley Face

Roflcopter said:


> I would say this nullified your post, but everything else about it was wrong too so I wont bother.


At no point during the fight did Shogun get rocked... AT ALL.

Shogun connected more than Lyoto did.


----------



## No_Mercy

deadmanshand said:


> Shogun got rocked? What fight were you watching? WHat were you smoking while watching it?
> 
> Machida landed half the shots Shogun did. Shogun landed more knees, punches, elbows, and leg kicks than Machida even thought of throwing.


Lyoto landed a knee when Rua was shooting in, several times he landed crosses, but Rua has a very solid chin. They were clean shots. Based on statistics Machida landed more. Name a round where Rua had Machida in trouble. There were several occasions where Machida was wailing at him any other fighter would have succumbed. Again it was without a doubt FOTN. What did Rua do besides land the leg kicks? Take downs which never succeeded. This reminded me of the Jardine fight vs Liddell. Jardine was bleeding all over the place, but won on points. That's what it was for this fight.


----------



## footodors

Dana says shogun robbed:
http://mmafrenzy.com/ufc-video/


----------



## The_Nightmare

No_Mercy said:


> Lyoto landed a knee when Rua was shooting in, several times he landed crosses, but Rua has a very solid chin. They were clean shots. Based on statistics Machida landed more. Name a round where Rua had Machida in trouble. There were several occasions where Machida was wailing at him any other fighter would have succumbed. Again it was without a doubt FOTN. What did Rua do besides land the leg kicks? Take downs which never succeeded. This reminded me of the Jardine fight vs Liddell. Jardine was bleeding all over the place, but won on points. That's what it was for this fight.


where did you get you're statistics?


----------



## zath the champ

Re-watching now.


I still have it 3/2 Shogun, but not shocked by decision. It was closer than most are leading on.

Lyoto looked like shit, but hung in there during the exchanges and landed the flashier strikes.

Shogun looked like he wanted a decision, but was in good form kicking the @#$%ing quadriceps outta Machida. The blue print has been laid out for the next challenger.

People just expected more out of Machida and less out of Shogun.


----------



## the1nicko

I am a huge machida fan, have been for a while, he is probably my favorite fighter. But I was not impressed by this performance. I dont know if I can say Shogun deserves the belt, but I do think he definitely won the fight. I think the most decisive rounds were 1, 4, and 5 going to Shogun. I give 3 to Machida and 2 is arguable but still points going to Shogun. I think there should be a rematch and if the same thing happens belt should go to shogun no question, I think in the rematch Machida will have to CLEARLY show he is the champion.

On a side note I think Shoguns style was very tough for Machida. The game plan of taking out Machidas legs so he cant move is very obvious, but Shogun was able to execute it. Machida could not find Shoguns timing, and he was not able to allude.


----------



## Roflcopter

No_Mercy said:


> Lyoto landed a knee when Rua was shooting in, several times he landed crosses, but Rua has a very solid chin. They were clean shots. Based on statistics Machida landed more. Name a round where Rua had Machida in trouble. There were several occasions where Machida was wailing at him any other fighter would have succumbed. Again it was without a doubt FOTN. What did Rua do besides land the leg kicks? Take downs which never succeeded. This reminded me of the Jardine fight vs Liddell. Jardine was bleeding all over the place, but won on points. That's what it was for this fight.


Based on what statistics? You have them? I'd like to see. And no, Machida hit elbows half the time and the few times he did land, the punches had nothing on them.

Also, rounds 4 and 5 where Machida was just looking to make it out of there. And the rounds Shogun dominated.


----------



## The_Nightmare

zath the champ said:


> Re-watching now.
> 
> 
> I still have it 3/2 Shogun, but not shocked by decision. It was closer than most are leading on.
> 
> Lyoto looked like shit, but hung in there during the exchanges and landed the flashier strikes.
> 
> Shogun looked like he wanted a decision, but was in good form kicking the @#$%ing quadriceps outta Machida. The blue print has been laid out for the next challenger.
> 
> People just expected more out of Machida and less out of Shogun.


i can't argue with that. i think people just need to give the judges the benefit of the doubt that they saw something that the untrained eye wouldn't notice.


----------



## 10e

Shogun only got briefly rocked in the fifth by a knee that he walked into. Outside of that Machida was mostly ineffective. He landed some straight punches but they were concurrent with harder kicks to the gut from Shogun.

You look at the fighters at the end. Shogun has a slight mouse under his left eye. Machida had a split lip, a bleeding nose and a stomach that looked like it had been paddled by a wrecking ball.

Shogun won the fight but not the decision. He threw more, landed (hard) more, and plainly outworked Machida. Anyone who says differently needs to watch a complete replay. I had it minimum 3-2 for Shogun, though really I think only the third was Machida's.

It's too bad. I predicted Machida would win easy, and after being pleasantly surprised, the decision was a big let down. I vowed to never watch another UFC PPV if Machida got the decision, and I plan to stick to it.


----------



## No_Mercy

zath the champ said:


> Re-watching now.
> 
> 
> I still have it 3/2 Shogun, but not shocked by decision. It was closer than most are leading on.
> 
> Lyoto looked like shit, but hung in there during the exchanges and landed the flashier strikes.
> 
> Shogun looked like he wanted a decision, but was in good form kicking the @#$%ing quadriceps outta Machida. The blue print has been laid out for the next challenger.
> 
> People just expected more out of Machida and less out of Shogun.


You said it best here. Count up the strikes landed for each fighter then we can settle this. If it was based on wear and tear there's a lot of fights in the history of UFC that would have changed. Reality is it's based on a point system.


----------



## machidaisgod

No_Mercy said:


> Lyoto landed a knee when Rua was shooting in, several times he landed crosses, but Rua has a very solid chin. They were clean shots. Based on statistics Machida landed more. Name a round where Rua had Machida in trouble. There were several occasions where Machida was wailing at him any other fighter would have succumbed. Again it was without a doubt FOTN. What did Rua do besides land the leg kicks? Take downs which never succeeded. This reminded me of the Jardine fight vs Liddell. Jardine was bleeding all over the place, but won on points. That's what it was for this fight.


Excellent comparison...if Iceman was the Champion still would Jardine still have got the decision...??????


----------



## Roflcopter

I saw that knee, it was a knee to to the body that didn't even flinch Shogun. Shogun landed a ton of them.

Also another thing about fighting.

When you both land strikes, and you land a counter-strike that is harder.
You win the exchange.

Since some people and the judges didn't know that, I thought I'd point it out.

Since Shogun was doing it all night long to overrated ass Machida.


----------



## Roflcopter

No_Mercy said:


> You said it best here. Count up the strikes landed for each fighter then we can settle this. If it was based on wear and tear there's a lot of fights in the history of UFC that would have changed. Reality is it's based on a point system.


He said it best, Machida scored on his flashier, blocked shots.

Shogun wrecked him with power shots.

But since you obviously can't score fights, nor can the judges. I'm done discussing this.

Good night.

Your hero is a fraud.


----------



## Smiley Face

machidaisgod said:


> Excellent comparison...if Iceman was the Champion still would Jardine still have got the decision...??????


Jardine wouldn't have even fought Liddell if he was still the Champion by UFC 76 cuz Chuck wouldn't need to get a tune up fight because A. He didn't lose his belt B. Jardine got KTFO back then by a newcomer.


----------



## Roflcopter

I'll just add one more thing, flashy pitter pat strikes only beat power strikes if the numbers between the two is significant. I'm willing to bet if Machida even landed more strikes than Shogun(I'm not too sure to be honest) that it was a by a miniscule amount.

Machida by robbery.

See ya'll at 106.


----------



## KnockedTFO!

Roflcopter said:


> I saw that knee, it was a knee to to the body that didn't even flinch Shogun. Shogun landed a ton of them.
> 
> Also another thing about fighting.
> 
> When you both land strikes, and you land a counter-strike that is harder.
> You win the exchange.
> 
> Since some people and the judges didn't know that, I thought I'd point it out.
> 
> Since Shogun was doing it all night long to overrated ass Machida.


I could'nt had agreed more... but what can anyone of us do that truely know Shogun won that fight? It is what is.. horrible judging... but on the good side of it all is that these hardcore Machida nut huggers are left scarred by Shogun's assult on Machida... Their once thought to be invincible picture perfect video game comic book karate character got picked apart & left limping with a head held low & suprised as he was annouced winner...It's okay Machida fans.. we all know you had your head held down & about too before the decision was announce...


----------



## cdtcpl

Roflcopter said:


> I'll just add one more thing, flashy pitter pat strikes only beat power strikes if the numbers between the two is significant. I'm willing to bet if Machida even landed more strikes than Shogun(I'm not too sure to be honest) that it was a by a miniscule amount.
> 
> Machida by robbery.
> 
> See ya'll at 106.


That is all it takes, that is all it took in his first fights in the UFC when everyone was bored with him but the hardcore were already gargling his nuts. I am not a Lyoto fan, you can go back and read my old posts about him if you like, but watching the fight I thought the first 3 rounds looked way too close to just plain call. So if I thought they were that close then I can easily see Lyoto getting the decision. Landing 2 strikes to your opponents 1 is the basis of an older Machida fight.


----------



## No_Mercy

Roflcopter said:


> I'll just add one more thing, flashy pitter pat strikes only beat power strikes if the numbers between the two is significant. I'm willing to bet if Machida even landed more strikes than Shogun(I'm not too sure to be honest) that it was a by a miniscule amount.
> 
> Machida by robbery.
> 
> See ya'll at 106.


Scores were 48-47 across the board for Machida. www.UFC.com 

He won by points. That's the reality, not by wear and tear otherwise there would have been a lot of fights that would have had a different outcome. There's no doubting it was a close fight. Machida had cuts, but was NEVER in trouble. As the challenger he's gotta take it in dominating fashion. We'll wait for the actual statistics to come out.


----------



## The_Nightmare

No_Mercy said:


> Lyoto landed a knee when Rua was shooting in, several times he landed crosses, but Rua has a very solid chin. They were clean shots. Based on statistics Machida landed more. Name a round where Rua had Machida in trouble. *There were several occasions where Machida was wailing at him any other fighter would have succumbed.* Again it was without a doubt FOTN. What did Rua do besides land the leg kicks? Take downs which never succeeded. This reminded me of the Jardine fight vs Liddell. Jardine was bleeding all over the place, but won on points. That's what it was for this fight.


surely thats an advantage of having a solid chin? you make good punches look like nothing. it dosen't matter what the punch would have done to someone else. if the punch dosent do damage to the opponent thats the fighters fault. thats like me hitting a great shot in soccer and the keeper saves it and the refs just like "thats no problem have the goal anyway any other keeper wouldn't have saved that."


----------



## No_Mercy

The_Nightmare said:


> surely thats an advantage of having a solid chin? you make good punches look like nothing. it dosen't matter what the punch would have done to someone else. if the punch dosent do damage to the opponent thats the fighters fault. thats like me hitting a great shot in soccer and the keeper saves it and the refs just like "thats no problem have the goal anyway any other keeper wouldn't have saved that."


Point is it plays an effect on the judges mind in scoring the round. When did Rua rattle Lyoto other than the elbow late in the round. There were at least two occasions where Lyoto wobbled Rua; exchanges (punches) and the knee to the midsection when Rua was going for the takedown.


----------



## zath the champ

Roflcopter said:


> He said it best, Machida scored on his flashier, blocked shots.
> 
> Shogun wrecked him with power shots.
> 
> But since you obviously can't score fights, nor can the judges. I'm done discussing this.
> 
> Good night.
> 
> Your hero is a fraud.


Take your emotion out of the equation. 

Machida wasn't a fraud when he shit stomped:

Ortiz
Bonnar
Penn
Evans
Silva
Franklin
Nakamura
Heath

He isn't a fraud because people don't agree the scoring of one fight.

He looked like shit.

I didn't say he won. I scored it for Shogun, but hey....flame on if it makes you feel better.


----------



## footodors

This rematch will break records. It will be UFC's Superbowl


----------



## joshua7789

I still think Machida is a good fighter, this just confirmed my feelings that everyone was overrating him. I cant stress this enough. Lyoto is no where near Andersons level.


----------



## No_Mercy

joshua7789 said:


> I still think Machida is a good fighter, this just confirmed my feelings that everyone was overrating him. I cant stress this enough. Lyoto is no where near Andersons level.


It's true even his father has said it. Would like to see how A. Silva does against Shogun.


----------



## deadmanshand

No_Mercy said:


> Point is it plays an effect on the judges mind in scoring the round. When did Rua rattle Lyoto other than the elbow late in the round. There were at least two occasions where Lyoto wobbled Rua; exchanges (punches) and the knee to the midsection when Rua was going for the takedown.


I watched the fight very closely and at no point did Lyoto wobble Rua. At all. On points Shogun should have fun. He landed at least as many - if not more - strikes, controlled the pace and the octagon, and inflicted more damage. Lyoto did not control that fight. Shogun did.


----------



## prolyfic

cdtcpl said:


> That is all it takes, that is all it took in his first fights in the UFC when everyone was bored with him but the hardcore were already gargling his nuts. I am not a Lyoto fan, you can go back and read my old posts about him if you like, but watching the fight I thought the first 3 rounds looked way too close to just plain call. So if I thought they were that close then I can easily see Lyoto getting the decision. Landing 2 strikes to your opponents 1 is the basis of an older Machida fight.


This is exactly my point. Anyone who says the Rua won rounds 1 and 2 decisively is honestly guilty of whatever it was that got in to Joe tonight. So if it wasnt decisive then how can the decision be BS to extent that people are making it out to be.

Also the crowd booing I am not surprised. Shogun looked amazing in the last 2 rounds and that is what was in their minds. Honestly if Machida had completely dominated the 1st 3 rounds but in a boring way and then Rua looked like the Rua from pride for the last 2 they would've done the same thing but a real MMA fan knows that looking good for 2 rounds still loses to being technical for 3. PERIOD!


----------



## The_Nightmare

No_Mercy said:


> Point is it plays an effect on the judges mind in scoring the round. When did Rua rattle Lyoto other than the elbow late in the round. There were at least two occasions where Lyoto wobbled Rua; exchanges (punches) and the knee to the midsection when Rua was going for the takedown.


i honestly can't see your point. are you saying the judges took into account the fact that shogun had a strong chin? or that they didn't? plus the most rocked anybody was in the fight was the elbow to machida late in one of the rounds i can't remember which. and the right hand to machida after the scuffle at the end of round 3.


----------



## deadmanshand

prolyfic said:


> This is exactly my point. Anyone who says the Rua won rounds 1 and 2 decisively is honestly guilty of whatever it was that got in to Joe tonight. So if it wasnt decisive then how can the decision be BS to extent that people are making it out to be.
> 
> Also the crowd booing I am not surprised. Shogun looked amazing in the last 2 rounds and that is what was in their minds. Honestly if Machida had completely dominated the 1st 3 rounds but in a boring way and then Rua looked like the Rua from pride for the last 2 they would've done the same thing but a real MMA fan knows that looking good for 2 rounds still loses to being technical for 3. PERIOD!


except that Shogun won 4 rounds. Not two. And any mma fan would know that means he should win. And he did. In impressive fashion.


----------



## alizio

the most amusing thing im hearing from some ppl after this fight is "shogun didnt do enough to try to finish the fight".... i watched machida avoid going for KOs most of his fight, his entire career, and been applauded for being "Elusive" and fighting smart, not taking damage, least hit blah blah blah..... Shogun basically did that to him tonight, he out countered machidas counters, with MUCH harder kicks and punches, while keeping machida on the defensive. He was more patience, he picked his spots better and he controled the pace of the fight, something machida basically always does, so he out machida'd machida... but its not enough to win??? 

So the only way to beat Machida isnt to fight smarter then him, you must put yourself completely at risk in order to do fight ending or near ending damage to prove you won the round?? You must do sometihng Machida himself wont do unless he has you in real deep water?? It's pretty ridiculous, what's next, MMA is olympic style judging?? If i girl slap you 100x and you drop 81 power shots on me.... i win??? 

Im worried in a rematch Shogun will feel the need to be more "convincing" and leave himself at risk. I mean think about it, even employing what happened tonight, according to the judges he lost the 1st three rounds, so you do that leg damage, but now you must finish him or win a round 10-8....

a good striking wrestler (hello rashad, wanna wake up?? Come back page....) with good leg kicks is gonna take the crown, unless Shogun gets him again.


----------



## No_Mercy

The_Nightmare said:


> i honestly can't see your point. are you saying the judges took into account the fact that shogun had a strong chin? or that they didn't?


Again it was very close. At no point did Rua have Lyoto in trouble or rattle him. If you watched the fight closely there were at least two incidences where Lyoto wobbled him albeit slightly. One an exchange with punches (Shogun has a solid chin and quick recovery), and the knee to the midsection when he was going for the take down. What I'm saying is that could have played a role in the judges decision. Rua's take down attempts were all ineffective. The only major shots were the leg kicks too the midsection in which Lyoto answered back. Just look at both of their midsection. "It was 48-47 across the board for Machida." Rua looked a lot more flashier and was controlling the pace. But point wise Machida obviously took it. We'd have to see what the actual fight stats were when it comes out.


----------



## prolyfic

deadmanshand said:


> except that Shogun won 4 rounds. Not two. And any mma fan would know that means he should win. And he did. In impressive fashion.


You can say he won rounds 4 and 5 but 1 and 2 is debatable. I think Lyoto won round 1,2, and 3 but I can see why people could have given it to Shogun, but truth is that neither one of them made a serious impression in those rounds. Go back and watch 1 and 2 and tell it is as black and white as you claim.

MMA fans should know when a round is decisive and when it is not....if they are being real.


----------



## The_Nightmare

deadmanshand said:


> except that Shogun won 4 rounds. Not two. And any mma fan would know that means he should win. And he did. In impressive fashion.


but he actually didn't. he lost. in impressive fashion. honestly the first 2 rounds are nearly impossible to judge "correctly" cause its just completely down to personal opinion.


----------



## deadmanshand

No_Mercy said:


> Again it was very close. At no point did Rua have Lyoto in trouble or rattle him. If you watched the fight closely there were at least two incidences where Lyoto wobbled him albeit slightly. One an exchange with punches (Shogun has a solid chin and quick recovery), and the knee to the midsection when he was going for the take down. What I'm saying is that could have played a role in the judges decision. Rua's take down attempts were all ineffective. The only major shots were the leg kicks too the midsection in which Lyoto answered back. Just look at both of their midsection. "It was 48-47 across the board for Machida." Rua looked a lot more flashier and was controlling the pace. But point wise Machida obviously took it. We'd have to see what the actual fight stats were when it comes out.


You are a blatant idiot. Lyoto controlled nothing. He did not wobble Shogun. He did not out strike his opponent at any point except for that one flurry. He was controlled the entire fight. And he knows it. Dana White knows it. SHogun knows. All the reporters at the press conference know it. Lyoto even mentioned that his dad and Silva both said it.


----------



## No_Mercy

deadmanshand said:


> You are a blatant idiot. Lyoto controlled nothing. He did not wobble Shogun. He did not out strike his opponent at any point except for that one flurry. He was controlled the entire fight. And he knows it. Dana White knows it. SHogun knows. All the reporters at the press conference know it. Lyoto even mentioned that his dad and Silva both said it.


Watch the name calling. Merely pointing out what the judges ruled. It was close. Nuff said...


----------



## The_Nightmare

No_Mercy said:


> Again it was very close. At no point did Rua have Lyoto in trouble or rattle him. If you watched the fight closely there were at least two incidences where Lyoto wobbled him albeit slightly. One an exchange with punches (Shogun has a solid chin and quick recovery), and the knee to the midsection when he was going for the take down. What I'm saying is that could have played a role in the judges decision. Rua's take down attempts were all ineffective. The only major shots were the leg kicks too the midsection in which Lyoto answered back. Just look at both of their midsection. "It was 48-47 across the board for Machida." Rua looked a lot more flashier and was controlling the pace. But point wise Machida obviously took it. We'd have to see what the actual fight stats were when it comes out.


honestly i don't disagree with most of what you are saying. i just want to clear on thing up.

would you expect a judge to take into consideration the fact that shogun probably was hurt but his strong chin and quick recovery saved him?


----------



## The_Nightmare

deadmanshand said:


> You are a blatant idiot. Lyoto controlled nothing. He did not wobble Shogun. He did not out strike his opponent at any point except for that one flurry. He was controlled the entire fight. And he knows it. Dana White knows it. SHogun knows. All the reporters at the press conference know it.* Lyoto even mentioned that his dad and Silva both said it*.


source?


----------



## deadmanshand

It wasn't close. At all. Not even vaguely. 

I'm tired of arguing with you people. The fight was that black and white. The judges are morons. I've watched it three times now and still stand by my analysis. Considering analysis of people is what I do for a living I'm going to go with what I, Dana White, the fighters involved, and the vast majority of the people who watched believe.


----------



## deadmanshand

The_Nightmare said:


> source?


Post fight press conference.


----------



## No_Mercy

The_Nightmare said:


> honestly i don't disagree with most of what you are saying. i just want to clear on thing up.
> 
> would you expect a judge to take into consideration the fact that shogun probably was hurt but his strong chin and quick recovery saved him?


Gonna make it clear. Thought Shogun edged out Machida initially. Then after thinking about it realized Shogun pressed the pace, was the aggressor, but never really landed anything to put Machida in danger other than the leg kicks and the elbow in the later rounds in the clinch. His takedowns were all ineffective. There were at least two occasions where he had Shogun back pedalling. The fact is Shogun has extremely quick recovery and solid chin so he was stunned albeit very briefly. My thinking is that certainly played a role in the judges mind in scoring the round. It wasn't the usual Machida domination, but did enough to squeak out the win.


----------



## The_Nightmare

deadmanshand said:


> Post fight press conference.


cheers.


----------



## joshua7789

Lyoto looked pretty dejected at the press conference. The great ones (GSP, Anderson, Fedor has never been in that position) have come back from there poor performances and looked unstoppable, we are going to find out what he is truly made of in his next fight. Cant wait to see it. I feel bad for the next person not named Machida that Shogun fights, they should go ahead and thank God that the UFC does not allow face stomps and kicks on the ground.


----------



## The_Nightmare

No_Mercy said:


> Gonna make it clear. Thought Shogun edged out Machida initially. Then after thinking about it realized Shogun pressed the pace, was the aggressor, but never really landed anything to put Machida in danger other than the leg kicks and the elbow in the later rounds in the clinch. His takedowns were all ineffective. There were at least two occasions where he had Shogun back pedalling. The fact is Shogun has extremely quick recovery and solid chin so he was stunned albeit very briefly. My thinking is that certainly played a role in the judges mind in scoring the round. It wasn't the usual Machida domination, but did enough to squeak out the win.


don't you think that if that did play a part in judges thinking its absurd? if shogun has a strong chin thats his advantage. surely the judges should only score directly on how much damage the punch caused to the opponent. regardless of who the opponent is.


----------



## SSD

When all three judges score a fight, there's a reason for it. I can understand when one or two judges, by chance, score a fight for someone else, but when you have a unanimous decision, you have a unanimous decision. There's a reason there are three judges who sit there instead of one or two. My understanding is that Machida out-pointed Shogun even though he took more damage. I think the problem you guys have is that you don't understand what the judge's reasons were for awarding certain rounds.

Also, just for the record, Machida visibly rocked Shogun twice and Shogun rocked Machida only once. And Shogun didn't get much head shots as well. Shogun's face (at the presser) was black and blue.


----------



## No_Mercy

The_Nightmare said:


> don't you think that if that did play a part in judges thinking its absurd? if shogun has a strong chin thats his advantage. surely the judges should only score directly on how much damage the punch caused to the opponent. regardless of who the opponent is.


Not at all it was a power shot designed to end the fight that connected. Justifying what the judges' probably thought. Bottom line Rua looked great tonight and Lyoto looked normal. But he scored just enough shots/points to take the win. Waiting for the fight stats.


----------



## chelfy

*Join the Facebook group "Mauricio "Shogun" Rua beat Lyoto Machida at UFC 104"*

*http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=166349792820*


----------



## No_Mercy

SSD said:


> When all three judges score a fight, there's a reason for it. I can understand when one or two judges, by chance, score a fight for someone else, but when you have a unanimous decision, you have a unanimous decision. There's a reason there are three judges who sit there instead of one or two. My understanding is that Machida out-pointed Shogun even though he took more damage. I think the problem you guys have is that you don't understand what the judge's reasons were for awarding certain rounds.
> 
> Also, just for the record, Machida visibly rocked Shogun twice and Shogun rocked Machida only once. And Shogun didn't get much head shots as well. Shogun's face (at the presser) was black and blue.


Good to see someone who understands it. It certainly was FOTN and Shogun deserves a rematch.


----------



## The_Nightmare

No_Mercy said:


> *Not at all it was a power shot designed to end the fight that connected.* Justifying what the judges' probably thought. Bottom line Rua looked great tonight and Lyoto looked normal. But he scored just enough shots/points to take the win. Waiting for the fight stats.


we obviously just have different opinions on how a fight should be judged. my thinking would be if Machida's power shot designed to end the fight barely rocked shogun. that means his striking is ineffective. personally i thought it was a draw. but it'll be interesting to see the stats.


----------



## No_Mercy

After 25 minutes of action, neither fighter had done enough to run away with the call, and a split-decision appeared a near certainty. Instead, all three judges delivered the same score, 48-47, and Machida walked away with his belt firmly around his waist. 

Judge Nelson Hamilton awarded Machida rounds two, three and four, while judges Cecil Peoples and Marcos Rosales gave the champ the opening three frames.

http://mmajunkie.com/news/16613/lyo...ns-belt-with-decision-win-over-shogun-rua.mma


----------



## SideWays222

*Anyone else thought Dana said "i thought you won"*

To Shogun after the fight finished. Im talking about when he walks to him inside the octagon and shakes his hand i thought his Lips read "i thought you won this fight"


----------



## machidaisgod

Got to give credit to the greast one, he was exhausted, dragging his legs around like Kathy Bates had put the hammer to him, switching stances and guted out a 5 round decision, truly a warrior


----------



## Toxic

He defiantly did I watched the fight with a couple friends and everyone saw that.


----------



## SideWays222

Toxic said:


> He defiantly did I watched the fight with a couple friends and everyone saw that.


Good im not crazy then. Im glad Dana admitted it to him and this likely means the UFC is not going to consider this a loss. It just sucks that on paper it is....

Also

For all the Morons that think Dana is somehow rigging the decision's this should be proof that he isnt. If the man is willing to admit Shogun won even though "somehow" he is rigging the decisions then that wouldn't make any sense.


----------



## xeberus

+respect for dana


----------



## Smiley Face

+1 for Dana saying that.


----------



## SpoKen

Dana knew as well as everyone in the world who's not the judges, Shogun won that fight.


----------



## JCurtis876

Watching this fight, I was excited to see that Shogun was holding his own...he is a fave of mine, and I was surprised to see that he was beating Machida (and beating him, he was).

After the first 3 rounds, I had Shogun up 2-1 (some could say 3-0). I was a little surprised that Shogun was this precise with his leg and body kicks, and that Machida was this...I don't know, relucatant? in his striking.

I expected Shogun to gas and Machida to be ready to pounce and end it.

Instead...

Machida looked gassed. Machida, gassed? Not possible. Yet, the 4th round progressed and Shogun was on the attack and Machida looked to be...waiting for something. OK, Shougun up 3-1 in my book, but Machida is resting and gearing up to end the fight.

Only he didn't. Machida hung back, Shogun pressed the attack, winning exchanges, and as round 5 ended I had Shogun up 4-1.

Here is the interesting part...

I looked at my 8 buddies watching the PPV. I said "the fanboy in me says Shogun won 50-45. My score is 49-46. The unbiased score is 48-47."

In fact, I said "if Shogun loses this fight, it's a Job and I will not watch another UFC PPV".

Guess I'm done.

I am in shock on this scoring. Total shock.

I have never been more disappointed,


----------



## Judoka

He did, Dana doesn't hang off the judges nuts so I don't see why he wouldn't.

It sucks, hopefully Shogun gets the belt that he should have.


----------



## MMA Fan 101

does anyone have a link to the video post fight conference ?


----------



## Notoriousxpinoy

http://fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Shogun.html

Shogun outstruck him apparantly.


----------



## Poland

Maybe the reaction is strong . . .. I was actualy trying to be a little cute, which clearly did not go over well with Machida's following. I'm actually a fan, but wanted Shogun to win, and feel he's overcome a lot of adversity since his knee surgeries, but I digress 

I'm not watching it now, just listening to it in the adjacent room - definately Joe Rogan and 'ol Mike Goldberg hyped up Shogun's kicks against Machida quite a bit. I honestly felt Shogun hurt Machida a little more, and finished stronger, and could have gone longer as Machida's legs seemed to be giving at the end, but whatever. Shogun definately can hold his head high after that fight . . ..


----------



## Sterl

If anyone ever says Machida is on Anderson's level again until he proves himself against a great competitor ever again is just a plain nuthugger. Shogun probably would have ended that fight in round 6.. Machida took way more damage than Rua and Rua had Machida afraid of him. How can you win a decision if you block takedowns to keep the fight standing but get totally tooled standing up? It doesnt make any sense and there is no reason why Rua shouldnt have left that cage without that belt that that piss drinking overrated coward left with. Im distgusted people here actually think Machida earned that fight.. Rua came into that fight a clear underdog with everyone saying his days of glory are done and he only got the shot because he was the only guy to keep Machida from not fighting for to long. Rua did everything he had to to win the fight besides finish it. Machida came into the fight with everyone saying he is a true warrior and the greatest fighter in the world and competely sucking his **** and he did nothing.. its just mind boggling.


----------



## PrideFan123

just wanted to come out of the woodwork to say that that decision was bullshit; shogun should be wearing the belt.


----------



## WouldLuv2FightU

*Let's just agree on this shall we*

Instead of debating it for days on end...why don't we all just agree on this. Because personally I feel it's completely true. Everyone has their reasons as to why they think either Shogun or Lyoto won the fight. And it basically boils down to the Machida defenders and UFC judges saying that Machida landed more strikes and stuffed takedowns. Everyone else says Shogun landed harder strikes and visibly damaged Machida, and finished strong. So this is what I think:

Machida won according to UFC rules. Shogun won according to PRIDE rules. Everyone looks at how someone wins a decision differently. Some people look at visible damage and whoever is in less danger towards the end of the fight. These are the rules of PRIDE, and also the rules of street fighting. Others look at the accuracy and quantity of strikes, and takedowns/takedown defense. These are the rules of UFC unfortunately.


Agree?


EDIT: This post only holds water if it is indeed true that Machida landed a higher percentage and quantity of strikes like I have been hearing from some of the defenders. I haven't seen an official stat sheet yet so if I'm wrong about that, then disregard everything I said and consider me a member of the "shogun got robbed" bandwagon.


----------



## KnockedTFO!

wrong!... if you're talking "UFC" rules.. Shogun also clearly outstruck Machida with accuracy too.. hence the limping leg & change of stance with no more elusive jumping in & out to attack by the 3rd round... Machida wasn't gassed, he was just hurt dragging on til the last round to survive...


----------



## xeberus

Nay sir, I decline your offer.

I will however concede hot chicks.


----------



## Knees

PrideFan123 said:


> just wanted to come out of the woodwork to say that that decision was bullshit; shogun should be wearing the belt.


100 fuking percent agree. anybody with a brain knows that decision was horseshit. Shogun obliviously landed more damaging kicks and was waaaaaaayy more aggressive and had the octagon control.

Even Machida was shocked about the win..

Pridefan is right...Shogun should be wearing the belt.

Complete horseshit.


----------



## WouldLuv2FightU

KnockedTFO! said:


> wrong!... if you're talking "UFC" rules.. Shogun also clearly outstruck Machida with accuracy too.. hence the limping leg & change of stance with no more elusive jumping in & out to attack by the 3rd round... Machida wasn't gassed, he was just hurt dragging on til the last round to survive...


Yea but you're forgetting that Machida also nailed Shogun with a shit ton of leg and body kicks too. They just didn't land as hard, or mybe Shogun is just good at not showing pain. He may have technically landed more than Shogun did just they weren't as hard...which still gives him points on the UFC scorecards...sadly. And he also dodged, countered, and or checked a lot of Shoguns attempts.


----------



## wukkadb

Eh, I disagree. I think Shogun won by UFC rules too.


----------



## WouldLuv2FightU

wukkadb said:


> Eh, I disagree. I think Shogun won by UFC rules too.


If the stat sheet comes out and it shows that Lyoto landed more strikes and at a higher accuracy rate would you change your mind? Cuz I'm still on the fence until I see a stat sheet.


----------



## deadmanshand

Check out Fightmetric. It already has the stats up and Shogun landed 40 more strikes than Machida did.

Doesn't sound like much until you realize that Machida only landed 42 strikes in the entire fight.


----------



## wukkadb

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> If the stat sheet comes out and it shows that Lyoto landed more strikes and at a higher accuracy rate would you change your mind? Cuz I'm still on the fence until I see a stat sheet.


Lol stat sheet is already out and it is highly in favor of Shogun. 

Here's a link: http://fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Shogun.html


----------



## xeberus

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> Yea but you're forgetting that Machida also nailed Shogun with a shit ton of leg and body kicks too. They just didn't land as hard, or mybe Shogun is just good at not showing pain. He may have technically landed more than Shogun did just they weren't as hard...which still gives him points on the UFC scorecards...sadly. And he also dodged, countered, and or checked a lot of Shoguns attempts.





wukkadb said:


> Eh, I disagree. I think Shogun won by UFC rules too.


hrmmm

Not sure if im reading the chart right but it looks like shogun landed 82 strikes, while machida only landed 42. 

Once again not sure if I'm reading the chart correctly but it appears shogun was also on average more accurate with his strikes.


----------



## WouldLuv2FightU

wukkadb said:


> Lol stat sheet is already out and it is highly in favor of Shogun.
> 
> Here's a link: http://fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Shogun.html


Haha...someone should delete this thread and ban the jackass who created it and tell him to stop smokin blunts at 5am.


----------



## Vale_Tudo

Worst decision...


----------



## Carlitoz3

xeberus said:


> Nay sir, I decline your offer.
> 
> I will however concede hot chicks.


:thumb02:


----------



## WouldLuv2FightU

I've seen that girl on the rights pic so many times goddamnit I just wanna **** the shit out of her I love that picture


----------



## MikeHawk

No, we should keep this thread due to the quantity of hot women being greater than the quantity of jackassery


----------



## wukkadb

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> Haha...someone should delete this thread and ban the jackass who created it and tell him to stop smokin blunts at 5am.


Ya that FM page really makes you think...


----------



## WouldLuv2FightU

MikeHawk said:


> No, we should keep this thread due to the quantity of hot women being greater than the quantity of jackassery


Thanks pal. You're a true friend.

We should just turn this thread into a "Shogun got robbed" thread. Or is there already one like that? I'll have to search.

EDIT: Nevermind there's already 46 of them. Let's just agree that the girl on the right would be some badass snatch...and Shogun got robbed.


----------



## Carlitoz3

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> I've seen that girl on the rights pic so many times goddamnit I just wanna **** the shit out of her I love that picture


Seriously, does anyone know her name??
I want to stalk her


----------



## WouldLuv2FightU

Carlitoz3 said:


> Seriously, does anyone know her name??
> I want to stalk her


I'd split her like wet pine


----------



## xeberus

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> EDIT: Nevermind there's already 46 of them. Let's just agree that the girl on the right would be some badass snatch...and Shogun got robbed.


Hells yea, I thought her image was worthy of sharing :thumb02:



Carlitoz3 said:


> Seriously, does anyone know her name??
> I want to stalk her



I have no idea, random find for me. Although I'd like to know


----------



## TraMaI

deadmanshand said:


> Check out Fightmetric. It already has the stats up and Shogun landed 40 more strikes than Machida did.
> 
> Doesn't sound like much until you realize that Machida only landed 42 strikes in the entire fight.


I think that stat sheet is totally wrong TBH. The one exchange where Rogan said "let's go back and see who landed more" my uncle and I counted the strikes, Machida landed 10 shots. There's no way he landed 30 the rest of the fight as every time Shogun threw that body kick he get hit in the face. I think I might rewatch it tonight and count my own.


----------



## Freiermuth

Good fight! Was hoping Shogun would pull it off but he's still a young fighter and will have his chance again.


----------



## wukkadb

That's Arianny Celeste you noobs.


----------



## MikeHawk

wukkadb said:


> That's Arianny Celeste you noobs.


NO NUDES!?!? FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU---


----------



## xeberus

TraMaI said:


> I think that stat sheet is totally wrong TBH. The one exchange where Rogan said "let's go back and see who landed more" my uncle and I counted the strikes, Machida landed 10 shots. There's no way he landed 30 the rest of the fight as every time Shogun threw that body kick he get hit in the face. I think I might rewatch it tonight and count my own.


Really? I remember that and I think machida missed/got blocked almost all the shots he threw. 



wukkadb said:


> That's Arianny Celeste you noobs.


holyshit... guys... for shame... :sarcastic08:





































hmm guess you're right :thumb02:

(yes #3 is logan, seriously youre going to complain about an almost naked girl sitting on a bed? lol thats what I thought)


----------



## wukkadb

nom nom


----------



## name goes here

Look lets all just agree on this:

Ninja's > Pirates


----------



## xeberus

name goes here said:


> Look lets all just agree on this:
> 
> Ninja's > Pirates


Just one question good sir.

When was the last time you saw a ninja with wenches?

Good game sir.


----------



## Danm2501

Loved the fight, hated the decision. Was an epic battle between 2 high class counter strikers, and one of the better 5 round decision fights I've seen for a while. Shogun clearly deserved the decision, winning 4 rounds at least I thought. Don't see how the judges gave the win to Lyoto tbh, was an awesome performance from Shogun, really deserved the win!


----------



## MetalMunkey

I the people who are pro Shogun are being way too critical of the judges, rounds 1 and 2 were razor close. I thought Machida won round 3. The decision wasn't that rediculous. That being said I thought Shogun won 48-47. I'm glad Shogun showed us he could still perform at the highest level.


----------



## _JB_

*--Shogun Vs Machida Official Scorecard--*

http://www.mmaweekly.com/blog/2009/10/official-csac-scorecard-for-machida-vs.asp

I thought Rua only lost one round myself vey strange decision.


----------



## Mckeever

It is quite clear that No mercy you are a deluded, arrogant human being. Take your head out of Lyoto's ass, it isnt good for you. When i read "Rua was rocked and wobbled" I had given up all hope for you.


----------



## Danm2501

I've just watched the fight back, and I actually agree with the judges now tbh. I tried to ignore Rogan and Goldie's comments and watch the fight, and Machida definitely countered more efficiently, snuffed the takedowns, landed more shots (not as much power, but definitley more efficient in landing his strikes) and I think he won rounds 1, 3 and 4. Shogun won the other 2, but I can definitely see why Machida got the decision. I'd still like to see a rematch though.


----------



## Alex_DeLarge

*I really can't believe people...*

Jesus people, this fight was RAZOR thin and was in no way, shape, or form a terrible decision. You really could declare a clear cut winner in that? No, you couldn't.

Some of you people are really something. Why should Machida lose respect? The guy fought his heart out and took the most punishment he's ever received in his MMA career. He loses respect because he thought he won the fight? News flash, HE WON THE FIGHT, so obviously I think he has the right to believe he won.

Judges don't corrupt the UFC. Haha, I can see it now. "We need Lyoto to win this fight. He's one of our most marketable employees and is bringing in tons of money for us that we NEED him to win by any means necessary...." And as for the gambling aspect, really? To even think this is the one worst decisions in history is simply stupid because there have clearly been worse out there and I'm not just talking decisions. I'm talking decisions to stop the fight, keep the fighting going, etc. 

The funny thing is I had the fight scored exactly like the judges did, if I absolutely had to score that fight. I had Rounds 2, 3, and 5 to Machida and 1 and 4 to Shogun. But even I realize someone could easily make the argument Shogun could have won because it was so close and because there was no clear cut winner. If Shogun got the nod, I would have never said Machida got robbed or screwed or the UFC is corrupted or the worst decision in western MMA history. So ******* stupid, we see an absolute GREAT fight on our hands, maybe the best fight of the year, and all people can do is come online and discredit it and label it as robbery, worst decision ever, UFC is corrupted and all this bullshit.

How about this, the fight was ******* awesome. Shogun gained much, much respect because a lot of people gave him little chance to win this fight and he turned out to be in great shape and really took it to the champ. Machida gets his first title defense against a game and dangerous opponent and should deserve his credit. That's what people should be saying because that fight was so close no one has a single right to declare it as robbery when there was no clear cut winner.


----------



## Vale_Tudo

_Agression, Striking and Octagon control...
_
Only one person won that fight


----------



## wukkadb

> The funny thing is I had the fight scored exactly like the judges did, if I absolutely had to score that fight. I had Rounds 2, 3, and 5 to Machida and 1 and 4 to Shogun.


Well 2 of the 3 judges scored rounds 1-3 for Machida, and 4-5 for Shogun, so you didn't have it scored exactly as the judges did. The 3rd judge had rounds 1 and 5 for Shogun, rounds 2-4 for Machida.


----------



## Nefilim777

Gotta agree here and I'm glad someone is saying it. When I finished watching it I honestly had no clue which way it was gonna go. Yeah Shogun was the agressor most of the time, but that's just Lyoto's style man, he plays on the counter, which, IMO anyway, means he had octagon control, he made Shogun come to him. That said, Shogun was fantastic, he did really well and clearly had studied his oponent well. Great fight all round, I honestly had no clue who's hand was gonna be lifted at the end, and although I feel a little bad for Rua, I'm delighted Machida won.


----------



## TERMINATOR

wukkadb said:


> Eh, I disagree. I think Shogun won by UFC rules too.


I would say 99% of every human being on the planet says shougun won by every fricken rule.


----------



## The Dude Abides

Agreed, the fact so many people are giving rounds to Shogun and Machida that contradict each other kind of says as much to me. Because geuess what, IT WAS A REALLY CLOSE FIGHT. And sorry, you gots to BEAT the cha,mp. Some wont agree with that....well, i do.


----------



## Nefilim777

If someone's gonna neg rep me on my opinion [again] at least leave your fvcking name, *****.


----------



## hvendlor

*Rogan's commentary in Machida-Shogun fight*

OK, I was shocked at the decision but during the fight Rogan's bias toward Shogun was ridiculous. If Machida landed a punch at the same time as shogun landed a kick, Rogan just keep mentioning the kicks.

When Machida landed a fury of punches on Shogun and Shogun landed 1 on Machida, Rogan just mentions the 1 punch of shogun.

Bad commentary today from joe but Shogun defo won.


----------



## hellholming

Machida never landed a fury of punches on Shogun. The only punch that landed clean in that exhange was Shoguns right hook.


----------



## Emericanaddict

The Dude Abides said:


> Agreed, the fact so many people are giving rounds to Shogun and Machida that contradict each other kind of says as much to me. Because geuess what, IT WAS A REALLY CLOSE FIGHT. And sorry, *you gots to BEAT the cha,mp.* Some wont agree with that....well, i do.


Everyone just remember I told you guys this was gonna become the forums new favorite saying even though it's BULLSHIT TO KEEP INFLATED CHAMPS! It's a made up rule based solely on certain peoples oppinions which should have ZERO bearing on the outcome of a fight.

I mean for gods sake go ahead and define "beating the champ" as far as im concerned this is a statement that serves only to justify your oppinion because by definition and based on the RULES Shogun probably won that fight. I need to watch it again but yeah.


----------



## M_D

Alex_DeLarge said:


> Jesus people, this fight was RAZOR thin and was in no way, shape, or form a terrible decision. You really could declare a clear cut winner in that? No, you couldn't.
> 
> Some of you people are really something. Why should Machida lose respect? The guy fought his heart out and took the most punishment he's ever received in his MMA career. He loses respect because he thought he won the fight? News flash, HE WON THE FIGHT, so obviously I think he has the right to believe he won.
> 
> Judges don't corrupt the UFC. Haha, I can see it now. "We need Lyoto to win this fight. He's one of our most marketable employees and is bringing in tons of money for us that we NEED him to win by any means necessary...." And as for the gambling aspect, really? To even think this is the one worst decisions in history is simply stupid because there have clearly been worse out there and I'm not just talking decisions. I'm talking decisions to stop the fight, keep the fighting going, etc.
> 
> The funny thing is I had the fight scored exactly like the judges did, if I absolutely had to score that fight. I had Rounds 2, 3, and 5 to Machida and 1 and 4 to Shogun. But even I realize someone could easily make the argument Shogun could have won because it was so close and because there was no clear cut winner. If Shogun got the nod, I would have never said Machida got robbed or screwed or the UFC is corrupted or the worst decision in western MMA history. So ******* stupid, we see an absolute GREAT fight on our hands, maybe the best fight of the year, and all people can do is come online and discredit it and label it as robbery, worst decision ever, UFC is corrupted and all this bullshit.
> 
> How about this, the fight was ******* awesome. Shogun gained much, much respect because a lot of people gave him little chance to win this fight and he turned out to be in great shape and really took it to the champ. Machida gets his first title defense against a game and dangerous opponent and should deserve his credit. That's what people should be saying because that fight was so close no one has a single right to declare it as robbery when there was no clear cut winner.


raise01:raise01:raise01: eh.. I had shogun winning the second 3rd and 4th and machida winning 1st and 2nd but I still applaud your post. 

I was watching through a tv the judges were front row watching live and have been trained to watch fights with solely seeing points in every punch and kick thrown, 

it was a close fight either way it went, I was just happy I got to watch one of the few great stand up mma chess matches


----------



## leifdawg

wukkadb said:


> Well 2 of the 3 judges scored rounds 1-3 for Machida, and 4-5 for Shogun, so you didn't have it scored exactly as the judges did. The 3rd judge had rounds 1 and 5 for Shogun, rounds 2-4 for Machida.


How would you happen to know how the judges scored each round?



Nefilim777 said:


> If someone's gonna neg rep me on my opinion [again] at least leave your fvcking name, *****.


Shell out the $10 for a premium membership and you can see who reps you.


----------



## wukkadb

leifdawg said:


> How would you happen to know how the judges scored each round?


I know everything, duh. Plus it was posted here. :thumbsup:


----------



## Nefilim777

leifdawg said:


> Shell out the $10 for a premium membership and you can see who reps you.


Sweet, I didn't know this, lend me ten bucks?


----------



## M.C

I'm glad this thread is here. I was going to make my own thread on this tomorrow or the next day, I still might.

The fight was amazingly close, Shogun did a great job, but the judges scored it for Machida. Machida says he won(the pre-fight interviews and things), but he also said Shogun was his toughest fight so far, which is was, clearly.

Great fight, very close fight, but Machida getting the decision isn't that bad. Trust me Alex, I've been fighting this since the event has been over.

Good thread.


----------



## M_D

Emericanaddict said:


> Everyone just remember I told you guys this was gonna become the forums new favorite saying even though it's BULLSHIT TO KEEP INFLATED CHAMPS! It's a made up rule based solely on certain peoples oppinions which should have ZERO bearing on the outcome of a fight.
> 
> I mean for gods sake go ahead and define "beating the champ" as far as im concerned this is a statement that serves only to justify your oppinion because by definition and based on the RULES Shogun probably won that fight. I need to watch it again but yeah.


its not opinions, just in the case of really close fights judges usually go for the champ, they do it in allot of fighting sports, not saying its right by any means just kinda the way things are. 

there is many ...and i mean many things wrong with the scoring system in MMA plain and simple. But all the same it is the system that is in place, the fighters now that the judging is flawed and should not leave it to close decisions with the system of scoring that is in place now for decisions like the ones made tonight could happen


----------



## Danm2501

Alex_DeLarge said:


> Jesus people, this fight was RAZOR thin and was in no way, shape, or form a terrible decision. You really could declare a clear cut winner in that? No, you couldn't.
> 
> Some of you people are really something. Why should Machida lose respect? The guy fought his heart out and took the most punishment he's ever received in his MMA career. He loses respect because he thought he won the fight? News flash, HE WON THE FIGHT, so obviously I think he has the right to believe he won.
> 
> Judges don't corrupt the UFC. Haha, I can see it now. "We need Lyoto to win this fight. He's one of our most marketable employees and is bringing in tons of money for us that we NEED him to win by any means necessary...." And as for the gambling aspect, really? To even think this is the one worst decisions in history is simply stupid because there have clearly been worse out there and I'm not just talking decisions. I'm talking decisions to stop the fight, keep the fighting going, etc.
> 
> The funny thing is I had the fight scored exactly like the judges did, if I absolutely had to score that fight. I had Rounds 2, 3, and 5 to Machida and 1 and 4 to Shogun. But even I realize someone could easily make the argument Shogun could have won because it was so close and because there was no clear cut winner. If Shogun got the nod, I would have never said Machida got robbed or screwed or the UFC is corrupted or the worst decision in western MMA history. So ******* stupid, we see an absolute GREAT fight on our hands, maybe the best fight of the year, and all people can do is come online and discredit it and label it as robbery, worst decision ever, UFC is corrupted and all this bullshit.
> 
> How about this, the fight was ******* awesome. Shogun gained much, much respect because a lot of people gave him little chance to win this fight and he turned out to be in great shape and really took it to the champ. Machida gets his first title defense against a game and dangerous opponent and should deserve his credit. That's what people should be saying because that fight was so close no one has a single right to declare it as robbery when there was no clear cut winner.


Epic post dude! Basically summed up my thoughts perfectly. Was a truely awesome fight that I've watched twice already. People are massively over-reacting to what was in my eyes anyway a fair enough decision. If the judges had scored it 50/45 in favour of Machida, then criticism would have been justified, but it was a stupidly close fight that led to a decision I happen to agree with.

The proof that it was so close is the way different people have each of the rounds scored. I personally saw Machida winning rounds 1, 3 and 4, with Shogun taking 2 and 5. Superb fight all the same, and a nowhere near the worst decision we've seen. Bisping-Hamill was FAR worse.


----------



## wukkadb

Michael Carson said:


> I'm glad this thread is here. I was going to make my own thread on this tomorrow or the next day, I still might.
> 
> The fight was amazingly close, Shogun did a great job, but the judges scored it for Machida. Machida says he won(the pre-fight interviews and things), but he also said Shogun was his toughest fight so far, which is was, clearly.
> 
> Great fight, very close fight, but Machida getting the decision isn't that bad. Trust me Alex, I've been fighting this since the event has been over.
> 
> Good thread.


I agree it was a close fight, but you should still make a thread breaking down the fight :thumbsup: I'm curious to see if your decision remains the same or if it changes once you really break down the fight. 

Overall I think Shogun won the fight, but I don't really mind keeping Lyoto the champ, I just feel bad for Shogun.


----------



## tap nap or snap

prolyfic said:


> Its funny but the only decisive rounds were 3,4,5. With 3 going to Lyoto and 4 and 5 going to Shogun, I guess that can all be disputed but this seemed pretty cut and dry to me. None of those were 10-8 rounds so that leaves the deciding rounds 1 and 2.
> 
> These could have gone either way. I just re watched them, on mute by the way, and I scored them for Machida, Shogun did land some hard shots but not nearly as much as Machida, pitter patty as they may have been. So for all yall that know hoe judging can go in close fights can you honestly say that Rua so dominated Lyoto in rounds 1 and 2 for this to be a BS decision.
> 
> I agree that Lyoto looked the more worse for wear but that doesnt earn Rua an extra round. I personally thought that the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round went to Lyoto and I am sure some might say maybe 2 but not 1 or maybe 1 but not 2. The point is if they weren't definitive rounds and those are the rounds that would've have swayed it to either fighter then this was not the horror story yall are making it out to be.


this is exactly how i feel about the judging, rounds 1,2,3 machida, 4, 5 shogun


----------



## capjo

excellent fight but poor decision.


----------



## The Dude Abides

Emericanaddict said:


> Everyone just remember I told you guys this was gonna become the forums new favorite saying even though it's BULLSHIT TO KEEP INFLATED CHAMPS! It's a made up rule based solely on certain peoples oppinions which should have ZERO bearing on the outcome of a fight.
> 
> I mean for gods sake go ahead and define "beating the champ" as far as im concerned this is a statement that serves only to justify your oppinion because by definition and based on the RULES Shogun probably won that fight. I need to watch it again but yeah.


Look, personally, i gave Rua that fight, but it was a very close encounter that i GENUINELY feel can be scored either way.

I said that simply because its true to a large extent in combat sports. And something i agree with.


----------



## Nefilim777

I was gonna mention that actually. I didn't think it was TOTALLY bias but it was weird, plus it almost seemed he got it wrong sometimes, like Machida might throw a kick and then he'd say something like 'nice kick from shogun there', I though I was losing my mind for a minute.


----------



## Emericanaddict

M_D said:


> its not opinions, just in the case of really close fights judges usually go for the champ, they do it in allot of fighting sports, not saying its right by any means just kinda the way things are.
> 
> there is many ...and i mean many things wrong with the scoring system in MMA plain and simple. But all the same it is the system that is in place, the fighters now that the judging is flawed and should not leave it to close decisions with the system of scoring that is in place now for decisions like the ones made tonight could happen


But it is a personal oppinion dude. Think about it if it wasn't then it would be in the rules which are pretty clearly defined. Secondly if it wasn't then Rampage should have won his fight against Forrest and I know most people believe Forrest won the decision fair and square just as I do but if you were to go by stupid logic like this then we should be stripping Forrest of that win.

This is a terrible idea that helped destroy boxing and is slowly drifiting into MMA and will only break down the image of the sport. you cant tell me it's a good idea when it get's people this upset. Obviously not everyone agrees with it and since it's not an official rule or even in the guidelines that makes it, point and case here, a personal oppinion.

Ihave nothing againt machida getting the win if he truly did deserve it but I detest the fact that it may be on the pretense that Shogun didnt finnish him so he doesnt deserve the win.

It was close and I can see how you could score it for Machida IF he did land significantly more strikes but I dont think he did. Ontop o this Shogun was controlling the Octagon and dealing a LOT of damage. Machida looked like a borken man at the end of the fight and since those are judging criteria I don't see how it doesnt go to Shogun.

Like I said ima look at fight metric now to see but this whole thing just robs me the wrong way. It has nothing to do with Machida the judges just irk me.


----------



## BrianRClover

I watched the fight live, then jumped online. After reading the uproar, I watched the fight again.

I'm still a little torn to be honest, but here is what I caught.

All most EVER SINGLE TIME Shogun landed one of his leg or body kick Machida answered with a stiff jab or cross. Despite Joe Rogan not even recognizing it a little bit. There were three offensive flurries that had the crowd on their feet in a moment where it looked like one fighter was in trouble. Those were all Machida coming at Shogun.
My point is, I can see where it could have been scored either way... well said Alex.


EDIT- I wanted to add, for those of you Machida fans jumping off his wagon, get lost! We don't need you on here anyway.


----------



## M.C

wukkadb said:


> I agree it was a close fight, but you should still make a thread breaking down the fight :thumbsup: I'm curious to see if your decision remains the same or if it changes once you really break down the fight.
> 
> Overall I think Shogun won the fight, but I don't really mind keeping Lyoto the champ, I just feel bad for Shogun.


Yeah, I'm going to give it a day or two for the dust to clear, right now emotions are high and people are flipping out.

I think a large part of it is based on people thinking of the last two rounds where Shogun was really putting it on heavy, and sort of skipped passed all of Machida's countering and his own strikes he put on Shogun in the first 3 rounds.

I will have to watch it again to see exactly which rounds I think went where.

Also, I'm pretty sure a lot of this has to do with hype. What I mean by that is, Machida didn't look so amazing tonight because Shogun pulled out his badassary and took it to him, landing big kicks and did very well, but becasue of that, all the countering that Machida did didn't look nearly as impressive as it does when he dominates, so Shogun looked like the one who won(it was close anyways, no doubt).

It's 5:21 AM here, btw, I haven't slept. I figured I'd put that out there.


----------



## hellholming

Yeah, even before the fight started Rogan was referring to Shogun as Machida and vice versa.

I bet the weed was good.


----------



## wukkadb

:thumbsup:


Michael Carson said:


> Also, I'm pretty sure a lot of this has to do with hype. What I mean by that is, Machida didn't look so amazing tonight because Shogun pulled out his badassary and took it to him, landing big kicks and did very well, but becasue of that, all the countering that Machida did didn't look nearly as impressive as it does when he dominates, so Shogun looked like the one who won(it was close anyways, no doubt).
> 
> It's 5:21 AM here, btw, I haven't slept. I figured I'd put that out there.


Yup, this is exactly it. People were expecting Lyoto to just run through Shogun, and since he didn't look dominant as usual, he looks "bad." Shogun also looked really good in the fight, which didn't help.

It's 5:23 am here and I also haven't slept :thumbsup:


----------



## M.C

Nice, I'm glad I'm not the only one who stays up all night.

Shogun impressed me a great deal, especially his cardio and ability to cut the cage off when Machida circled.


----------



## hellholming

all of those judges have a very similar handwriting.


----------



## BrianRClover

hellholming said:


> Machida never landed a fury of punches on Shogun. The only punch that landed clean in that exhange was Shoguns right hook.


You're wrong... moving on. Rogan's commentary was disgusting tonight. For the first time ever I wanted him shut up and let Goldberg get a few more words in every now and again.


----------



## hellholming

BrianRClover said:


> You're wrong... moving on.


Watch the replay.


----------



## Danm2501

Think it's you that need to check the replay tbh. In that flurry of strikes, Shogun only landed 1, maybe 2 punches, whereas Machida landed at least 4 punches, probably more. Lyoto definitely got the best of that exchange, and did land a flurry of punches.


----------



## BrianRClover

hellholming said:


> Watch the replay.


I already did. The only moments of crowd eruption for the fight possibly coming to an end came from Machida attacking Shogun.

I'm not saying I agree with the judges. But the fact is, leg kicks do not win fights. We've seen that a million times. And honestly what did Shogun do other than kicks? A few failed takedowns.

He won the kick battle, and Machida won with the hands. If I had given it to Shogun it would have been for Octagon control, and that's it.

Machida didn't beat him, but Shogun didn't beat Machida either.


----------



## hellholming

Danm2501 said:


> Think it's you that need to check the replay tbh. In that flurry of strikes, Shogun only landed 1, maybe 2 punches, whereas Machida landed at least 4 punches, probably more. Lyoto definitely got the best of that exchange, and did land a flurry of punches.


Like I said the only punch that landed CLEAN was Shogun's hook. Machida's punches were slipping off and partially blocked.


----------



## The Dude Abides

Michael Carson said:


> Nice, I'm glad I'm not the only one who stays up all night.
> 
> Shogun impressed me a great deal, especially his cardio and ability to cut the cage off when Machida circled.


Usually 6 a.m here by the time the show is ended. So i've been to bed and gotten up since. :thumb02:

And yes, Shogun surprised everyone i think. Looked in great shape, but also because i don't think anyone was expecting him to come up with such a good gameplan. 

And why complain when the rematch is now setup to be an even bigger occasion? We all win there.


----------



## hellholming

The Dude Abides said:


> And why complain when the rematch is now setup to be an even bigger occasion? We all win there.


The Dude speaks the truth! :thumbsup:


----------



## Danm2501

I disagree. Shogun did land a big shot on Machida but Machida definitely got 4 or 5 clean shots in during that exchange. A few were blocked and deflected, but he did get those clean shots in; not as powerfully clean as Shogun's, but clean shots nonetheless.


----------



## wukkadb

The Dude Abides said:


> And why complain when the rematch is now setup to be an even bigger occasion? We all win there.


True dat. Also Lyoto is going to be motivated to not put on another questionable performance, and Shogun looks good after this fight since the decision was controversial. I'm curious to see if they really do an immediate rematch or not.


----------



## Hewhoismitch

*The entire living room I was in noticed.*

Glad it's not just me. Here is my take.

http://theathleticnerd.blogspot.com/2009/10/i-know-who-joe-rogan-has-crush-on.html


----------



## BrianRClover

*Machida is the reason Shogun impressed so many people last night*

Remove whatever you think about the judges call for just one second and think about this for a moment.

Shogun landed a lot of leg kicks, but all most every single time he did Machida countered with a jab or a cross. If you mute Rogan's commentary this is easier to pick up on. Machida landed as many unaswered knees and punches as Shogun did kicks.

Shogun also had a few takedown attempts, all of which were stuffed with ease by Machida. He never even rocked Machida, and I'm sorry but the right hand Joe was masturbating over doesn't count, Machida just went defensive at that point.

Other than that, he cut off the Octagon... and that's it.

This is not a thread saying I think Lyoto won, I believe there is a valid argument either way.

My point is this... had Shogun been fighting any other Light Heavyweight, a LHW that wasn't considered by many to be the best fighter in the world only 24 hours ago, his performance would have been considered lackluster... just like Machida's.


----------



## The Dude Abides

He really pissed me off. Machida would land a weedy little kick and Machida would land a jab straight after and it was "ANOTHER DEVASTATING KICK BY SHOGUN!!!!!!!"

jusy goes ot show, we all see fights a certain way. the fact the judges, and the commentary, both ringside can have such different takes. Just again shows me people really shouldn't be getting all up in arms about the decision. Sure, say you think Shogun won, but some of the posts i've read have been just utterly daft.


----------



## hellholming

Hewhoismitch said:


> Glad it's not just me. Here is my take.
> 
> http://theathleticnerd.blogspot.com/2009/10/i-know-who-joe-rogan-has-crush-on.html


haha! great writeup!


----------



## wukkadb




----------



## hvendlor

Thats put it this way, the fight with the sound off is a much closer fight than the one with the sound turned on.

Good job rogan doesnt do radio commentary


----------



## name goes here

xeberus said:


> Just one question good sir.
> 
> When was the last time you saw a ninja with wenches?
> 
> Good game sir.


If you see a ninja your already dead. Ergo I have seen no ninjas - boobed or not.

Also:
http://www.techdiversions.com/files/history/Ninja_Gaiden_NES_2.jpg


----------



## M.C

I agree.

A large part of this "Shogun was robbed" bullrush all has to do with Machida not looking unstoppable for once, and things like Joe's commentary, the fact that so many people were excited that Shogun was actually doing well against Machida, they started to not notice all the counters that Machida put on him everytime Shogun tried to attack.

I've also stated that Machida throwing Shogun off with ease also helped his score.

I don't think either performance was lackluster, I think they both went out there and had one of the most exciting fights all year, but this whole "Shogun was robbed" thing is not only getting old, but it's not true, it was a razor thin fight that could have gone either way.


----------



## hellholming

BrianRClover said:


> My point is this... had Shogun been fighting any other Light Heavyweight, a LHW that wasn't considered by many to be the best fighter in the world only 24 hours ago, his performance would have been considered lackluster... just like Machida's.


If Shogun was fighting someone else he would have a more aggressive gameplan, I can guarantee you that. And that would not have been the same fight at all.


----------



## vaj3000

^^^^agree. the title belongs to shogun IMHO.


----------



## name goes here

I'm glad this is posted in it's own thread and not one of the other threads already about the decision. I think it adds something not already mentioned, and deserving discusion in it's own right.


----------



## Hewhoismitch

This is all I got...

http://theathleticnerd.blogspot.com/2009/10/i-know-who-joe-rogan-has-crush-on.html


----------



## name goes here

Enough with the decision, it was bad, decisions are more often bad than good, at least when it matters. There are other threads to discuss the decision in, this thread is about hating Joe Rogan.

*I hate Joe Rogan*. His discussion of striking gets in the way because it is so wrong.


----------



## Phailbot

Lol, just no.


----------



## BrianRClover

name goes here said:


> I'm glad this is posted in it's own thread and not one of the other threads already about the decision. I think it adds something not already mentioned, and deserving discusion in it's own right.


Thank you, and that's exactly why I did it. The call by the judges will be discussed for months... my point is, Shogun was not impressive at all.


----------



## Mjr

.... I see the point, however watch some of Shoguns old fights, It is very rare for him to be beaten in stand up, and we saw that again tonight. 

He looked terrible against Coleman and Forrest, but what you saw tonight was a proven fighter implement a great game plan. 



> A large part of this "Shogun was robbed" bullrush all has to do with Machida not looking unstoppable for once, and things like Joe's commentary, the fact that so many people were excited that Shogun was actually doing well against Machida, they started to not notice all the counters that Machida put on him everytime Shogun tried to attack.


Please refer to the other thread, someone has made a list of every online scorecard, pretty much the ENTIRE reputable MMA community scored it for Rua.
You can't dismiss that as people being ignorant or scoring emotionally. 
Machida got the win fair enough, however pretty much the entire MMA community knows he didn't deserve it. There will always be people a few people that want to go against the grain and say otherwise and that would be you guys.

I don't mean offense but if you really think Machida deserved that you need to re watch the fight.

I love Machida, I love his style and I love his discipline and I think he is great for MMA, but the argument you are presenting here is ridiculous. The decision was wrong plain and simple.

You can't honestly believe that the whole community scored this bout the wrong way, come on dude re-watch it and re-watch it again. 

Shogun doesn't even have a big following on these forums, the fact there is overwhelming support for him now should speak for itself.


----------



## BouncyJones

Before this fight, Machida was considered almost untouchable. Shogun came in with exactly the right strategy: follow through with leg and body kicks because even if Machida counters, it won't be powerful enough to knock out Rua and Machida'll suffer the damage in the longer run.

Everyone else up until this point used to get stymied on precisely those counters.

It took a heck of a fighter and strategy to do that to Machida. And to do it consistently.


----------



## M.C

I don't think anyone scored it the wrong way. I think the fight was razor thin and could have gone either way, yet the judges who were 5 feet away who have been juding fights for years now, saw the edge for Machida, as did I.

Simple as that in my eyes.


----------



## BouncyJones

Michael Carson said:


> I don't think anyone scored it the wrong way. I think the fight was razor thin and could have gone either way, yet the judges who were 5 feet away *who have been juding fights for years now*, saw the edge for Machida, as did I.
> 
> Simple as that in my eyes.


Fallacy of authority. [Bold mine]


----------



## Rated

It's because when they were exchanging shots, Shogun was able to block a lot of the counters as he was landing the body kicks over and over again.


----------



## Mckeever

Mjr180 said:


> .... I see the point, however watch some of Shoguns old fights, It is very rare for him to be beaten in stand up, and we saw that again tonight.
> 
> He looked terrible against Coleman and Forrest, but what you saw tonight was a proven fighter implement a great game plan.
> 
> 
> 
> Please refer to the other thread, someone has made a list of every online scorecard, pretty much the ENTIRE reputable MMA community scored it for Rua.
> You can't dismiss that as people being ignorant or scoring emotionally.
> Machida got the win fair enough, however pretty much the entire MMA community knows he didn't deserve it. There will always be people a few people that want to go against the grain and say otherwise and that would be you guys.
> 
> I don't mean offense but if you really think Machida deserved that you need to re watch the fight.
> 
> I love Machida, I love his style and I love his discipline and I think he is great for MMA, but the argument you are presenting here is ridiculous. The decision was wrong plain and simple.
> 
> You can't honestly believe that the whole community scored this bout the wrong way, come on dude re-watch it and re-watch it again.
> 
> Shogun doesn't even have a big following on these forums, the fact there is overwhelming support for him now should speak for itself.


This, right here.


----------



## Seperator88

okay does anyone else remember Jardine beating Chuck? Chuck obviously did more damage, look at jardines face at the end, Chuck landed so many more punches, jardine just caught him that one time, but other than that it was all kicks and he won, so how did shogun not win, thats what he did and more, he landed the better punches at well, just doesnt make sense


----------



## Freelancer

I have to watch the fight again. I don't see how da hell Machida won that fight.:confused02:


----------



## Seperator88

I have to disagree i watched the fight unbiased because i really didn't care who won, and if you're going to talk counters like you, did you not notice shoguns counters, sure machida had some good coutners, but almost every strike shogun landed was a counter, and quick too. and he landed more than just one right hand, like when he split his lip open, or the counter left, or the right you mentioned, or the left elbow to the head against the cage, what did machida land that looked so significant to you


----------



## Guy

No. Machida is apperantly is "a student of technique, a master of discipline, a fighter as dangerous as they come" so he shouldn't have any so called "off nights." Machida looked bad because Shogun gave him a good fight and questionably beat him.


----------



## Devil_Bingo

Bullshit decision tbh. Shogun Won Rounds 1,2 and 5. Don't see how Machida won that fight.


----------



## KnockedTFO!

lol this is coming from a guy that's got Machida as one of his favorite fighters.. and any other one that agrees are also Machida nuthuggers that have been claiming since day one that Machida was going to run through Shogun with ease... I'm tired of the studdering but but's from all these Machida nuthuggers last attempt to save face for themselves & their paper champ that they themselves too know deep down inside lost that fight...


----------



## Phailbot

*Machida vs Shogun, honest evaluation.*

Okay, so here I go and try to dissect what I saw:
Leg kick, leg kick, leg kick, leg kick.*
Landed, landed, landed, landed.
Limping, limping, limping.
Ice, ice, ice, ice.
*
No but seriously, Shogun had a plan and that plan was to pick apart Machida, and he did, slowly we saw the wear and tear of those leg kicks affecting Machida’s stance, his kicks, his overall performance. Shogun put a lot of pressure on Machida, he kept pressing the assault, and he also waited for Machida to counter in order to counter.
*
HOWEVER…
*
Let’s not forget what Shogun also did that was DEFENDED by Machida, takedown attempts by Shogun stuffed by Machida, on in particular I have in mind Machida got a crotch lock in and stuffed a takedown.
*
We saw Shogun get a clinch and pressure Machida against the cage and use knee strikes to the thighs to wear him to the ground yet failed to capitalize.
*
Defensive goes to: Machida (takedown defense, clinch defense.)
Aggression: Shogun.
Striking: Shogun
Counterstriking: Shogun
Octagon Control/Awareness: Machida for avoiding clinch throw attempts by pressing against the cage.
*
Many times in this fight we saw Shogun clinch and break the clinch with some dirty boxing/elbows, I didn’t see Machida break out of the clinch with any offensive striking.
*
Whenever Machida landed a knee to the torso Shogun clinched to prevent Machida capitalizing with punches and strikes. 

Machida would get a flurry of punches out only to have them stopped almost instantly by a good defensive plan by Shogun.
*
Overall: I watched each round, I watched as my best friend who has Machida’s dick so far down his throat that he craps out Brazilian’s cringe after every single round. I saw him almost in tears in round four proclaiming it is all over. I sat there open minded watching each strike, each assault, each attempt to see a Machida that was dodging and running from a pressing Shogun win a bout that in all honesty he should have no won.

I mean…not even a split decision, nothing, not even a stinking majority. Unanimous, Shogun lost on points.
*
Consider the following:
*
Shogun Rua is a PRIDE fighter, he is a PRIDE golden boy, this is UFC and apparently UFC > PRIDE. Do we honestly believe the judges would give this fight, as close or one sided as it may be to a PRIDE fighter? Especially since there was no decisive way to judge, there was not TKO, KO, or Tap out, it was based solely on *points. Would UFC allow that to happen to their prized 15-0, now 16-0 Machida?
*
I would highly doubt it?
*
Such a close match means another fight, a rematch, a rematch means more money because we NEED to see Shogun win, we NEED to have him win the belt now because we FEEL that he was screwed (which I feel the same). So we WILL no matter what YOU say no matter how much you say it “I will never buy UFC again.” You WILL purchase it just because you want Shogun to get what is rightfully deserved the LHW belt.
*
And Dana will get what he wants….M-O-N-E-Y.


----------



## limba

nice thread.
i posted midway through the fight something like "rogan is kissing shogun's ass to much..."
i think that shogun took the fight, but the way rogan elevated rua through the fight was just ridiculous.
every 10 seconds joe was pronouncing shogun's name.
sick


----------



## Uchaaa

i was under the impression that shogun blocked machidas counterpunches. Videoquality sucks on mma-core though, I cant really see it.


----------



## MMAUK

Every other word with Joe is 'WOW'. That really annoys the hell out of me. 

Fuk Joe Rogan, Bring back Bas.


----------



## The Horticulturist

the crowd couldn't hear Rogan and they had the same feelings as most people listening to Joe. 

PLUS Rogan was one of the few people actually backing Shogun going into this fight, did people expect him to not get stoked when Shogun started winning? The guy is human for Christ's sake, and he was being honest with his opinion, adding color to the commentary.


----------



## MedicWanteD

Joe's such a phuckstick, coming in the ring and verbally slapping Machida in the face saying "do you agree with the decision" HELL YES Machida agrees with the decision, he's got the belt on his waist.

It was really disrespectfull no matter how the fight went.


----------



## kay_o_ken

shogun won that fight.


----------



## Drogo

Good post. I was going to make a post like this but you said everything I wanted to say. I scored it 48-47 for Shogun but I wasn't shocked to see Machida win, this was a very close fight.


----------



## chelfy

*Join the Facebook group "Mauricio "Shogun" Rua beat Lyoto Machida at UFC 104"*

*http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=166349792820*


----------



## creepjacker

I saw Machida landing a lot of hits to the head every time Shogun threw a body kick. Sure, they didn't "look" as impressive as the body kicks, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen. That is why Machida won. 

I understand why some people may think Shogun won, but the people who think it was one sided and a steal for Machida just don't know what they were really watching.


----------



## Smiley Face

No worries... Shogun will defeat Machida in the rematch.


----------



## flm74

*People who are screaming injustice.*

I think a lot of people are forgetting how they score fights. You score every round, not the entirety of the fight. If you look at the end of the fight pretty much everyone would agree that Shogun did more damage to Machida. However that's not how fighting works. It's one of the only sports where the person who was ahead at the end isn't necessarily the person who won the match. Rounds 1-3 all could have gone to Machida, with the take down defense, slick countering and damage done to Shogun you can make a case for this. And being the champion this is more than likely what happened. Machida also had Shogun in visible trouble where he was obviously shaken twice in that fight. Machida was just being worn down with nothing really dangerous thrown his way.

At the end of the fight I felt shogun was robbed, but after thinking about it I realized something important, judges judge rounds, not fights. I can't wait for the rematch.


----------



## Uchaaa

But wasnt shogun blocking the most counterpunches?


----------



## Finnsidious

I totally agree, I'm glad a lot of others noticed this too. I thought Shogun won a very close fight, but Rogan's commentary was just retarded.

I assume they were desperately talking up Shogun because they thought Machida was going to win easily, I've noticed they often do that when a fighter is an underdog to try to make a fight sound close that isn't.

However this actually was a really close fight, so Rogan just looks like a moron.


----------



## Canadian Psycho

I can definitely see why there are those who are making a case for Shogun, and I don't take issue with that. What I take issue with is all of the 'this fight was rigged' nonsense. What a ridiculous accusation to make. It's called poor judging people, and unfortunately, it sometimes happens. I happen to like Shogun, and I feel ha earned a great deal of respect and new fans last night, but some of these claims that judges were paid off, or that Dana secretly planned for Machida to win are absolutely asinine. Dana did everything in his power to keep Machida out of the title picture for the longest time, so why would he now go to the trouble of rigging this fight and paying off judges? Especially with what would happen were he ever found out!

Bloody ridiculous to make that claim, especially when any fan with half a brain knows that Rua is easily the more marketable of the two fighters. Logic people, I beg of you. This board has become a bit of a joke these past 12 hours, what with the ranting and raving of conspiracy touting lunatics. It was a case of poor judging (because even if we were to agree that Machida won, was it really a unanimous win? I'm not so sure, but respect that others might disagree). Dana White can't over-turn the decision, as some of you have rather ignorantly suggested, but he will give us a rematch. That alone proves that the man cares about what fans want, and that he knows himself the fight possibly could have gone to Rua.


----------



## D.P.

I know what I saw, Machida didn't win that fight.

Btw, for you silver and golds....replay is on vip lounge. Should be up all day.


----------



## locnott

Boxing judges might just hate MMA like boxers and most boxing fans do. We need trained MMA judges in a bad way, maybe 5 judges, 4 around the cage and 1 watching all the cameras..( just my thoughts on the subject )


----------



## 420atalon

2 of the 3 judges gave Lyoto the first 3 rounds.

Shogun definitely one at least 1 of the first or second round if not both.


----------



## SerJ

Well, I read most of the thread and seems some of you still think that machida earned the decision because Rua didn't do enough to take the belt from the champ. I find it stupid that the champ all ready has an advantage before going into the fight of not losing his belt. Shouldn't this be even when entering the cage? I also wonder, you guys that say the challenger needs to take the belt from the champ and has to work harder to take the belt then for the champ to keep his belt, I wonder what most of you thought of the Griffin-Jackson fight? That fight was pretty much like this one with the challenger winning on points and his leg kicks. Just like Jackson, it was obvious Machida was more then hurt with the kicks. I bet you guys all thought that Jackson lost the fight then, but are flipping on Rua with this fight. I only say that because I know most of this board was pro-Forrest after he got the belt. 

I feel bad for both of these guys though, because it was obvious to 95% of the people watching at home and that were live at the fights, that Shogun took this fight. Horrible judging in my opinion. I really think this crap of the challenger needs to show that he clearly won and took the belt is dumb. While Shogun mostly landed the leg kicks and was the most aggressive, I guess that wasn't enough to Machidas few flurrys that he was also hurt on, but I guess with him just standing and not bringing the fight is enough to keep the belt. That is just insane!

Also the other argument on this board about Rogans commentary influencing people; come on! Are you serious? You could think it was that way if you only saw the fight at home, but not if you were there. Just because a couple of you that went to UFC events and bought the headphones, doesn't mean everyone else did. I went to 103 and saw one person behind me that bought them. Of course I'm only talking about my section of what I could see, so obviously everyone doesn't buy them. It should also be noted that the majority of the crowd at the beggining was for Machida with Rua getting boos during the intro. During the fight, I mostly heard Machida chants. But please tell me who the majority of the crowd was cheering and booing for after the decision???

The CSAC is a disgrace and need to be held accountable. I'm sure both of the fighters are dissapointed since Rua knows he won and Machida knows deep down that he lost. What a disgrace this decision was. Forget the rematch, give the belt to Rua and give Lyoto the rematch to win the belt back b


----------



## The Horticulturist

I've spent the last 2 hours watching all 5 rounds over and over and over in full quality.

No one is going to convince me that Lyoto did what it took to deserve the win in this fight. Shogun did more damage, landed more shots, connected more, was the agressor for 90% of the fight, and did not look hurt once. For every shot lyoto managed to pull off, Shogun landed more, and was much more effective in this fight.

I thought the fight was awesome to watch, and I know Machida has world class skills to beat anyone, but he didn't deserve the W on this night.

For people playing it off as the fault of the commentary, listen to the crowd, and read the pbp judging from online. Those things should be a good indicator that it wasn't Rogan's fault.


----------



## HellRazor

flm74 said:


> I think a lot of people are forgetting how they score fights. You score every round, not the entirety of the fight.


I'm awae of that. But that's not all there is to it. The probelm with 'ten point must' scoring is that there's no such thing as an even round. You HAVE to give someone a one-point advantage.

Add that to the tendency/'unspoken rule' that ties go to the champ (I beleive the phrase is, 'you have to BEAT the champ'), and you get results like last night.

I could have scored that fight 49-46 Shogun. I _expected _ 48-47 SHogun. TO get 48-47 Machida, you have to give both close rounds to Machida, and the one where he had a solid flurry at the end.

The Compubox numbers on this fight will be interesting. TO my eye, Shogun landed more strikes, AND more power stikes. But in my experience, a lot of judges give leg kicks almost no value, and body kicks minimal value. Scored that way, Shogun wins the fight.


----------



## Uchaaa

SuicideJohnson said:


> I've spent the last 2 hours watching all 5 rounds over and over and over in full quality.


Can you share the link?


----------



## No_Mercy

You know I really wondered where all these Shogun "fans" came from. Last I saw the poll on the UFC, this site everyone was rooting him out including myself, but I was putting money on Machida. If you look at my old post I was incredulous of the odds against Shogun when I knew he was touted as the #1 or at least top 3 LHW several years ago. It was -200 for em. Although I have favorites I'm pretty unbiased. I look at fight videos and stats before I pick a winner. One thing is for certain nobody thought it would be that close. 

It was an incredible showing from Rua and he proved he can bang! Just because Lyoto looked normal for the first time doesn't mean he lost. 

Regardless, a the end of the night I even thought I lost albeit a split decision. But there's a lot more to look at a fight. Shogun was very crisp, but did not dominate enough to win it. Yah I think Lyoto being the champ played a small degree in it. Can't leave it to the judges. 

We have to see the official fight counter (not Fight Metrics) from the judges and UFC staticians. Bottom line if it was based on wear and tear a lot of rulings would have been different. History would have changed dramatically.

GSP vs BJ Penn - 1 (GSP was bloodied and BJ didn't have a scratch.)
Liddell vs Jardine (Jardine's head was cut up and bleeding)
Rampage vs Griffin (Griffin got knocked down twice, but won on points with the leg kicks.) 
Wand vs Franklin 

These are some of the examples where it would appear the winners lost because of wear and tear. Guess what...it's based on points. There's a lot of emotions when it comes to fights no doubt, but it is what it is. It's time for a rematch now. 

Mkeever - What's your intelligent analysis of the fight...


----------



## Alex_DeLarge

wukkadb said:


> Well 2 of the 3 judges scored rounds 1-3 for Machida, and 4-5 for Shogun, so you didn't have it scored exactly as the judges did. The 3rd judge had rounds 1 and 5 for Shogun, rounds 2-4 for Machida.


I meant I had it scored exactly like they did as in 48-47, not what rounds they gave each fighter.

I honestly can't believe it. I really can't believe it. This is Fight of the Year worthy...perhaps one of the greatest stand-up fights in the UFC EVER and all people can talk about was how much bullshit it was? I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.

My honest opinion? I would have preferred a draw. Like I said, the fight was so razor thin that it's damn near impossible to pick a winner. The only reason I even said I thought Machida won is because if I HAD to pick a winner, I had Machida 2, 3, and 5, and Shogun 1 and 4. Were they clear cut? Absolutely not. Therefore, I declare a draw and immediate rematch. 

I really can't believe some people on here can't appreciate this sort of fight that maybe..maybe happens twice a year and this is how they repay the fighters.


----------



## Jesy Blue

hahahah... someone neg repped me for calling it this the most boring title fight ever.

in my opinion it was. i expected a paced match, but at no point was there ever even a moment a threat of either one of them finishing or the ref jumping in. it was almost a sparing match.

my opinion, and a right to it.


----------



## Ehan82

(sigh)...refs stopping the velasquez rothwell fight while rothwell is standing up(he WAS getting beatdown but was on his way up and definetly not defenseless)....machida winning his fight via unanimous decision....lastnight is making my head spin thanks to bad officiating/judging. can we see fedor fight in ufc already, at least when he fights someone gets tapped or ktfo


----------



## Alex_DeLarge

Granted, it was no Frye/Takayama, superior striking ability shown by both men and more appealing to people like you. If you want to watch slop with no technique involved, just find your local venue and I'm sure you'll have some flash KO's there.


----------



## The Dude Abides

So are we moving ALL talk of Shogun Machida in here then?


----------



## Seperator88

or if you want exciting, just stop talking about making randy retire, he has never had a boring fight....ever, i say a month after randy beats verra he should fight machida, weather machida is the champ or not


----------



## Seperator88

The Dude Abides said:


> So are we moving ALL talk of Shogun Machida in here then?


i know its just not as fun when its here ya know, i wish we could just fill up the whole page with 18 different threads about the same thing


----------



## slapshot

SuicideJohnson said:


> I've spent the last 2 hours watching all 5 rounds over and over and over in full quality.
> 
> No one is going to convince me that Lyoto did what it took to deserve the win in this fight. Shogun did more damage, landed more shots, connected more, was the agressor for 90% of the fight, and did not look hurt once. For every shot lyoto managed to pull off, Shogun landed more, and was much more effective in this fight.
> 
> I thought the fight was awesome to watch, and I know Machida has world class skills to beat anyone, but he didn't deserve the W on this night.
> 
> For people playing it off as the fault of the commentary, listen to the crowd, and read the pbp judging from online. Those things should be a good indicator that it wasn't Rogan's fault.


I agree and Ive watched it four times now and I still struggle to give Lyoto a round much less three, this fight was a sham Im very disappointed.


----------



## The Dude Abides

HellRazor said:


> The probelm with 'ten point must' scoring is that there's no such thing as an even round.


No you don't. You can simply call a 10-10 round.


----------



## Jesy Blue

Seperator88 said:


> or if you want exciting, just stop talking about making randy retire, he has never had a boring fight....ever, i say a month after randy beats verra he should fight machida, weather machida is the champ or not


that would rule! Set up up for 110... i think that's the next open main event slot!
while it would be sad to have Machida's record beaten by a 46 year old guy........
.... the amazement of Randy taking the belt from Machida would blow the minds of the world as a whole!

and i can see randy actually doing it!


... and i have no doubt Vera will loose; it would be a walk in the park for Randy.


----------



## Danomac

The early stoppage in the co main event was much worse.

Too close to call. You may not like this but anyone who thinks Machida should be stripped of his title, you are a ******* idiot.


----------



## evzbc

Give Lyoto some time.

He had a lot of pressure and I thought he did a good job. The fight was a chess match and gave us fans a lot to talk about.

No one has defended that title since when, Liddell? So he broke the streak....just barely. He'll settle into a comfortable position and work the kinks out of his game.

He got into that 'don't take risks and lose the belt' mentality, like GSP, but he'll stomp some ass in his next fight.

Shogun definitely won some UFC fans, and it will be exciting to see him kick some more ass too. 

It was a great fight, good war boys!


----------



## Ehan82

Alex_DeLarge said:


> Granted, it was no Frye/Takayama, superior striking ability shown by both men and more appealing to people like you. If you want to watch slop with no technique involved, just find your local venue and I'm sure you'll have some flash KO's there.


Arizona Rage in a Cage baby! and i appreciatte u telling me what kind of "people" i am. how very kind of you


----------



## Jesy Blue

if Dana takes the belt and gives it Rua, he might as well call himself Vince McMahon and have bouts where Brock takes on guys the size of Frankie Edgar once a week leading up to the PPV like Brock used to do.

what happened happened.... no moaning/bitching/complaining/blogging/vlogging will change it, go forward from here.


----------



## slapshot

Danomac said:


> The early stoppage in the co main event was much worse.
> 
> Too close to call. You may not like this but anyone who thinks Machida should be stripped of his title, you are a ******* idiot.


I think you need to close your mouth and pull your head out. There is no reason to call people names for a opinion, one that is obviously the majority I might add. 

So far this is the most obtuse post in the thread and for that expect a incoming neg rep from me, cheers!


----------



## muse

Freelancer said:


> I have to watch the fight again. I don't see how da hell Machida won that fight.:confused02:


Watch it with the volume down and stop listening to farrking Rogan(the man was out an out supporting), every body shot landed by Shogun early was matched with a left hand from Machida, machida also landed kicks...Rua rarely landed hands..

Score it rnd by rnd and give the benefit of any doubt(as is done) to the champion...

I am a fan of neither Machida is boring IMO and Shogun has lost the blitz.....

I had Machida winning the first three narrowly simply because he landed more variety and Rua never imo CLEARLY one any of 1-3..

I had Rua winning 4 and 5 convincingly but not enough for a 10-8.

A different style of scoring prolly see's a Rua win as he over the whole 5 did more damage but on a rnd by rnd he suffers the loss.


----------



## No_Mercy

This sums it up best. Very good insight on the fight. Had Shogun won I would not have complained at all. In fact I would have lamented that I lost my bet, BUT as a consolation I knew the "SPIDER" would be entering to avenge the loss. 

"The men who should be facing the wrath of those who felt Rua had won should not be Hamilton, Peoples and Rosales, who rendered their opinions in a very technical, taut affair. Rather, Rua supporters should be angry at his corner men, who continually told him he was well ahead.

Rua said he didn’t press the action in the final two rounds because his corner had told him he was in control. If that’s true, it’s that advice that cost him the fight. And it’s always the worst kind of advice to give a fighter in any match, but particularly a technical fight like Machida-Rua.

Rather, the bad guys in this scenario are Rua’s friends, partners and coaches who were all too willing to pat him on the back and cheerlead rather than to encourage him and go and finish a fight he had within his grasp."

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=ki-machidarua102509&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


----------



## Tacx0911

No other guy in LHW deserves another shot, but Rua. Shogun clearly had a gameplan that worked. As a challenger though, he should have showed much more aggression during the closing seconds of each round. Machida is a counter puncher, but Shogun showed more patience and technical prowess in the fight. It was a close call, but we all have to respect the result. Most people may have seen a "Robbery", but a fight is a fight. I personally don't agree with the decision, but it was one hell of a performance by both fighters, specially by Rua.

Lyoto vs Rua 2 SHOULD be the next LHW title fight. Next outing, any of the 2 fighters SHOULD go for the finish.


----------



## Hammerlock2.0

Personally I had all 5 rounds for Shogun. I'm not kidding. I would have understood if the judges gave Machida round 2 or round 3, but that's still not enough to win.


----------



## Ansem

*Machida - Not indestructible.*

As we can see the fight yesterday, decision could have gone either way, Machida landing the golden hits while Shogun doing the actual damage primarily on the legs. What i noted from this fight either bad decision or not, Machida defintly wasn't the one we seen at UFC 98, do you think he lost his touch after winning the championship belt?


----------



## Pound&Mound

Thiago Silva + Rashad Evans skills + chins =/= Mauricio Shogun Rua with his cardio back last night.


----------



## Canadian Psycho

Ansem said:


> As we can see the fight yesterday, decision could have gone either way, Machida landing the golden hits while Shogun doing the actual damage primarily on the legs. What i noted from this fight either bad decision or not, Machida defintly wasn't the one we seen at UFC 98, do you think he lost his touch after winning the championship belt?


No, I don't think he's lost his touch. I keep telling people that last night is more telling of Shogun than it is of Machida. That very few gave Shogun a snowball's chance in hell is why last night is such a matter of discussion. Rua is and always has been a formidable opponent and top 205er, but a few lackluster performances made many lose sight of that. He obviously turned a few heads last night, yet Machida did very well in his own right, even if he did seem to fizzle out at the end. This isn't a case of Machida being gone. It's a case of Rua being back. And frankly, I'm quite looking forward to the rematch. No fighter is invincible. Not even Anderson Silva or Fedor. All it takes is the right fighter to prove this. Last night, Rua was the right fighter.


----------



## SSD

I am sure round 2 and 3, both, should have been awarded to Machida. Even if, I scored a 48-47 victory for Shogun. The thing with leg kicks is the same as pushing someone against the cage. They are great but shouldn't be worth much since they are designed to help you execute another more important attack (like KOing you opponent).


----------



## HeWillEnlarge

I watched the fight again, and Machida came out the winner. It was very close, the fight was nearly a toss up and the toss up always goes to the champion. People need to watch the fight again.


----------



## Hammerlock2.0

HeWillEnlarge said:


> I watched the fight again, and Machida came out the winner. It was very close, the fight was nearly a toss up and the toss up always goes to the champion. People need to watch the fight again.


I've watched it three times today and my final decision is 50-47 Rua. I gave rounds 1,4 and 5 to Shogun. Rounds 2 and 3 were so even that I decided to make them 10-10. Is there a fightmetric report already? I'd be really excited to see it.


----------



## Diokhan

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Personally I had all 5 rounds for Shogun. I'm not kidding. I would have understood if the judges gave Machida round 2 or round 3, but that's still not enough to win.


I had it 50-45 to Shogun too, but accepted that rounds 2 and 5 could have gone to Machida too in the eyes of bad judges. No way it could have been 48-47 to Machida though. *sigh*


----------



## Toxic

muse said:


> Watch it with the volume down and stop listening to farrking Rogan(the man was out an out supporting), every body shot landed by Shogun early was matched with a left hand from Machida, machida also landed kicks...Rua rarely landed hands..
> 
> *Score it rnd by rnd and give the benefit of any doubt(as is done) to the champion...*
> 
> I am a fan of neither Machida is boring IMO and Shogun has lost the blitz.....
> 
> I had Machida winning the first three narrowly simply because he landed more variety and Rua never imo CLEARLY one any of 1-3..
> 
> I had Rua winning 4 and 5 convincingly but not enough for a 10-8.
> 
> A different style of scoring prolly see's a Rua win as he over the whole 5 did more damage but on a rnd by rnd he suffers the loss.


There is absolutely zero benefit to the champion in an MMA fight, its a freaking sport not WWE wrassling. The fact people actually think this way blows my mind, when that cage door closes there is no champion, there is no challenger there is two guys fighting to see who is better and the judging and rules are completly impartial as to who the champion is.


----------



## frekwentflier

*Just watched the fight again*

This is my first post on this forum.

I watched it last night and my reaction to Machida winning was "WTF???". Now based on some very good advice given by many in this thread, I watched the fight again and paid special attention to Machida's countering as well as the commentary. I have now officially changed my mind and now understand why Machida got the decision.

Round 1 - Very very close. It looked to me that for everything Shogun gave, Machida gave back. So if it's a draw round, let's face it, it probably goes to the champ.

Commentary - "has Machida lost his first round?". 

Round 2 - Again very close, but I think Machida had the edge. Like the first round, if it's a draw, it'll probably goto the champ.

Commentary - When Shogun landed a leg kick and Machida landed a punch, Rogan goes "WHAT A KICK!!!" every time. Or when they both land kicks, he only mentions Shogun. Just like many have said in this thread.

Round 3 - Close again, but I would give the edge to Machida, especially for the last-minute flurry.

Commentary - consistently pro-Shogun until Machida's flurry, and even then they talk about how the exchange was even. 

Round 4 - Again very close. I think it could go to either fighter.

Commentary - "you whose name do you keep saying Joe? Shogun". Well no shit when you ignore everything Machida is doing. In all fairness Rogan did also say the round is close and he'd hate to score it.

Round 5 - Def Shogun. However if his corner hadn't told him he was winning, perhaps he might have done more b/c it was obvious Machida was tiring. Had he done more, he very well could've pulled it out.

So after watching the fight again with the knowledge I gained on here, I can now see how the judges gave it to Machida. Shogun kicked harder and did more damage, but Machida landed a lot of counters. Does damage not count for anything in scoring? 

My wife watched it with me and she said "the bald guy" should've won.  Of course, she's Thai, so she'll always root for the Muay Thai fighter. 

I can't wait for the rematch!!

I hope that eventually MMA gets its own scoring system instead of borrowing boxing's. It's fights like this that demonstrate just how necessary it is.

(On a side note, I also now understand how the judges could give the fight to Bisping over Hamill. Sure, Matt beat the crap out of The Countess, but Bisping did counter a LOT the entire fight.) 

Side-side note: Cain Valasquez is a beast!! Holy crap I can't wait for him to fight Brock or Shane!!


----------



## steveo412

I was actually very impressed with Machida last night. I never knew he could actually fit all 3 judges ***** in his mouth at the same time before the fight. That is more than impressive and well deserved of a victory in my eyes. LOl who does shogun think he even is, he didnt even try to give them a hand job before the fight. Poor guy thought he could win the fight on outstriking, outaggressiing and superior octagon control. Silly guy:sarcastic12:


----------



## Calminian

Just watched the fight w/o sound (for the first time).

Rnd 1: Machida 10-9
landed more power shots, many more point shots and made Shogun miss quite a bit. 

Rnd 2: Machida 10-9
Machida landed a power knee shot. Shogun landed a power shin kick to the body but Machida hit at the same time with a punch to the chin. Machida also stuffed several takedowns. Machida also scored to point winning kicks. Close, but I think Machida did more.

Rnd 3:Machida 10-9
Machida, even before the final flurry, out pointed Shogun. The flurry at the end made it decisive. I also noticed the Shogun would do this little move with his arms after he gets hit sort of indicating that he didn't get hit. This might have convinced the crowd, and Joe, but not me or the judges. But at this point I have Machida winning the first 3 rounds. I did not expect this, after reading the boards last night.

Rnd 4: 10-10
Wow, I didn't expect that. I was expecting this to be decisive for Rua, as all the Sherdog guys gave it to him, but he really didn't do anything. A few leg kicks landed and Machida landed a few strikes as well. If I'm a judge this is a difficult round to score. I can see a case for either fighter. 

Rnd 5: 10-9 Machida
Holy crap! I actually had Machida out pointing him in this round also. I'm utterly shocked I saw it this way. Rua swung at a lot of air this round. He had some moments right in the beginning of the round where he landed leg kicks. Machida came back with knees to the body, head strikes and a lot of defense

I don't know what to say. Very few decisive rounds, so I can see someone scoring it the other way, but I firmly believe Machida did enough to win this fight. Props to the judges. This was not a easy fight to score.

Here's a potential problem, though. I noticed on some replays that many simultaneous shots were landed, but I didn't notice until the replay. Since Machida was my guy, I tend to watch him striking and didn't notice the fact that he took one right as he gave one. If I was a shogun guy and watching him, I can see how I may not have noticed that he got one as he gave one. This may be why so many thought he was taking rounds.

My wife is a mma fan as well, and she thought Machida won every round (but said it was the most boring fight she's ever watched). Again we watched without the sound.

Take if for what it's worth.


----------



## D.P.




----------



## wukkadb




----------



## slapshot

This says it all, for though's that want to blabber about Lyoto's counter striking.
http://fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Shogun.html

After scoring the striking you have to remember octagon control and aggression plays a role in scoring a tight round.



wukkadb said:


>


ROFL, nice one.


----------



## Ansem

In the end we all wanted Machida to win but ofc not the way he did, overall who wud you say is a better fighter?


----------



## zath the champ

Alex_DeLarge said:


> Jesus people, this fight was RAZOR thin and was in no way, shape, or form a terrible decision. You really could declare a clear cut winner in that? No, you couldn't.
> 
> Some of you people are really something. Why should Machida lose respect? The guy fought his heart out and took the most punishment he's ever received in his MMA career. He loses respect because he thought he won the fight? News flash, HE WON THE FIGHT, so obviously I think he has the right to believe he won.
> 
> Judges don't corrupt the UFC. Haha, I can see it now. "We need Lyoto to win this fight. He's one of our most marketable employees and is bringing in tons of money for us that we NEED him to win by any means necessary...." And as for the gambling aspect, really? To even think this is the one worst decisions in history is simply stupid because there have clearly been worse out there and I'm not just talking decisions. I'm talking decisions to stop the fight, keep the fighting going, etc.
> 
> The funny thing is I had the fight scored exactly like the judges did, if I absolutely had to score that fight. I had Rounds 2, 3, and 5 to Machida and 1 and 4 to Shogun. But even I realize someone could easily make the argument Shogun could have won because it was so close and because there was no clear cut winner. If Shogun got the nod, I would have never said Machida got robbed or screwed or the UFC is corrupted or the worst decision in western MMA history. So ******* stupid, we see an absolute GREAT fight on our hands, maybe the best fight of the year, and all people can do is come online and discredit it and label it as robbery, worst decision ever, UFC is corrupted and all this bullshit.
> 
> How about this, the fight was ******* awesome. Shogun gained much, much respect because a lot of people gave him little chance to win this fight and he turned out to be in great shape and really took it to the champ. Machida gets his first title defense against a game and dangerous opponent and should deserve his credit. That's what people should be saying because that fight was so close no one has a single right to declare it as robbery when there was no clear cut winner.


I said the same in less words and neg rep came flying in.

I forgot my rule about not coming to the forums for a few days after a fight. Many don't come to discuss the fight, just to vent frustration.

It was close. It went to Lyoto. Nothing will change that.


----------



## Alex_DeLarge

slapshot said:


> This says it all, for though's that want to blabber about Lyoto's counter striking.
> http://fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Shogun.html
> 
> After scoring the striking you have to remember octagon control and aggression plays a role in scoring a tight round.


Yeah, cause Shogun landed 17 "effective punches."

I say we just say **** judgmental calls and let the fight metric system decide.


----------



## marcthegame

Ansem said:


> In the end we all wanted Machida to win but ofc not the way he did, overall who wud you say is a better fighter?


rua....more well rounded, that machida karate shit failed last night. If machida can adapt and ko rua in there next fight then machida is better. But on paper right now rua is better he actually hurted machida and made that not getting hit stat seem bs.


----------



## slapshot




----------



## vandalian

Big news here!

If anyone _did_ think Machida was indestructible, they were idiots.


----------



## xeberus

I gotta say shogun. He landed the harder blows, he was the more accurate striker and he landed almost twice as many strikes as machida. I also think he has an advantage on the ground and he showed better cardio last night.


----------



## SSD

NO ONE is indestructible. Even Fedor isn't indestructible. He clearly lost against Arona and was given a gift-wrapped decision so stop attacking Machida as if he is won the title by fluke and that he was fed opponents. Let's just get this straight, Shogun did so well because he, Machida, and Anderson Silva are the top three fighters in the 205 division. A lot didn't see it because Shogun was put to sleep by Griffin years back.


----------



## swpthleg

Why don't we not get snarky? Kthx.


----------



## thedogdanny

Shogun? HAHAHAHAHA He has better leg kicks, thats all. Machida OWN him in everything else


----------



## steveo412

steveo412 said:


> I was actually very impressed with Machida last night. I never knew he could actually fit all 3 judges penises in his mouth at the same time before the fight. That is more than impressive and well deserved of a victory in my eyes. LOl who does shogun think he even is, he didnt even try to give them a hand job before the fight. Poor guy thought he could win the fight on outstriking, outaggressiing and superior octagon control. Silly guy:sarcastic12:


I am sorry where are my manners? There all fixed


----------



## swpthleg

Gosh, you're mannerly.


----------



## Smiley Face

Alex_DeLarge said:


> Yeah, cause Shogun landed 17 "effective punches."
> 
> I say we just say **** judgmental calls and let the fight metric system decide.


fight metric said Shogun won. You FAIL. 

Great pictures DP.


----------



## steveo412

swpthleg said:


> Gosh, you're mannerly.


Gotta be I guess you get in trouble for saying the D word now who knew? Sorry mom


----------



## swpthleg

steveo412 said:


> Gotta be I guess you get in trouble for saying the D word now who knew? Sorry mom


Who said you were in trouble?


----------



## N-Como

BTW what was up with shogun spreading out his arms after every flurry?


----------



## swpthleg

N-Como said:


> BTW what was up with shogun spreading out his arms after every flurry?


See the "Why does Shogun think he's an eagle?" thread, also in the UFC section.


----------



## LCRaiders

thedogdanny said:


> Shogun? HAHAHAHAHA He has better leg kicks, thats all. Machida OWN him in everything else


You probably did not watch the fight, but after last night Machida would get demolished by Anderson Silva if they were to fight..

War Shogun!


----------



## steveo412

swpthleg said:


> Who said you were in trouble?


Got a warning from cheif Machida nuthugger


----------



## Smiley Face

steveo412 said:


> I was actually very impressed with Machida last night. I never knew he could actually fit all 3 judges ***** in his mouth at the same time before the fight. That is more than impressive and well deserved of a victory in my eyes. LOl who does shogun think he even is, he didnt even try to give them a hand job before the fight. Poor guy thought he could win the fight on outstriking, outaggressiing and superior octagon control. Silly guy:sarcastic12:


I laughed. HARD.

Repped.


----------



## D.P.

Clearly he isn't indestructible.


----------



## swpthleg

steveo412 said:


> Got a warning from cheif Machida nuthugger


I didn't warn you. Someone else must have.

I am a Machida fan, however.


----------



## steveo412

swpthleg said:


> I didn't warn you. Someone else must have.
> 
> I am a Machida fan, however.


No I wasnt talking about you. Who do you think would be the chief Machida nuthugger?


----------



## Smiley Face

steveo412 said:


> Got a warning from cheif Machida nuthugger


coldcall? He keeps us elusive huggers in line... :wink01:


----------



## D.P.

Let's keep the discussion on the Machida/Rua fight please. Everything else, keep it out of the thread and in pm. 

Thanks guys. :thumbsup:


----------



## swpthleg

steveo412 said:


> No I wasnt talking about you. Who do you think would be the chief Machida nuthugger?


I only use that term when referring to my own adulation of particular fighters, so I have no idea, and I don't see that it matters.


----------



## neoseeker

Shogun is the better fighter of the two. Don't take me wrong, Machida is a very good fighter too, but Shogun is more versatile. He proved it last night. I hope the fight goes to the ground at least once on the rematch.


----------



## coldcall420

steveo412 said:


> No I wasnt talking about you. Who do you think would be the chief Machida nuthugger?


 
You were infracted for talking about have three male genetalia in somones mouth on this forum. You know this as it was explained to you when you recieved the infraction, your "machida nutthugger" comments after the fact are bringing you close...

Dont play stupid about somthing you know darn well about and if you have an issue PM someone, dont post your instigating posts, "machida nutt hugger" they will not be tolerated considering what your infraction was based on.

Do not disrupt this thread again.


----------



## Calminian

Watching the fight _with_ sound this time, now I see what everyone was talking about. There were several exchanges where Machida and Shogun landed blows simultaneously, but Joe only mentioned Shogun's. I don't fault him, however, as he was probably looking at Shogun during the exchange. I was looking at Loyoto during the exchange and didn't noticed Shogun's strike. Joe, unfortunately, was getting very excited about Shogun and didn't stay objective. In fact as a Rogan fan, I have to say, he really blew this one. Way overboard, especially in round 3. it wasn't as lopsided as he lead on, in fact, I think Machida was getting the better strikes even in those rounds Joe was praising Rua. But, again, I wouldn't fault someone for seeing the other way. I would not want to be a judge for this fight. 

only one real solution. Rematch.


----------



## SimplyNate

I don't know if anyone has said this yet... Shogun should be champ.


----------



## D.P.

SimplyNate said:


> I don't know if anyone has said this yet... Shogun should be champ.


I really don't think it's been said enough. I'm not being sarcastic btw.


----------



## SimplyNate

So I wasn't the first?


----------



## coldcall420

SimplyNate said:


> I don't know if anyone has said this yet... Shogun should be champ.





D.P. said:


> I really don't think it's been said enough. I'm not being sarcastic btw.


 
Shogun fought last night???:confused02:


----------



## Sicilian_Esq

coldcall420 said:


> Shogun fought last night???:confused02:


What happened to Lee Murray? :dunno:

And has anyone heard from Forrest Griffin after he ran out of the octagon post-Silva fight? I hope he's ok...


----------



## Smiley Face

Sicilian_Esq said:


> What happened to Lee Murray? :dunno:


Currently sitting on some Moroccan dude's cock. 

*Source: Disclosed.*


----------



## Sicilian_Esq

Smiley Face said:


> Currently sitting on some Moroccan dude's cock.
> 
> *Source: Disclosed.*


I thought he was nursing his big toe after soccer kicking Tito in the head. 
:confused05:


----------



## joshua7789

Sicilian_Esq said:


> What happened to Lee Murray? :dunno:
> 
> And has anyone heard from Forrest Griffin after he ran out of the octagon post-Silva fight? I hope he's ok...


He is currently planning more "Super Robberies" from inside the belly of the beast.


----------



## muse

Toxic said:


> There is absolutely zero benefit to the champion in an MMA fight, its a freaking sport not WWE wrassling. The fact people actually think this way blows my mind, when that cage door closes there is no champion, there is no challenger there is two guys fighting to see who is better and the judging and rules are completly impartial as to who the champion is.


Remind again, me who goes home with the belt if the fight is deemed a draw?

This is where the conventional wisdom of to be the champ you have to beat the champ comes from....:bye02:

And i will dispute vigorously the fact that when the cage door closes you are no longer the champ..where'd you come up with this wisdom?


----------



## D.P.

I can't get over this...how the hell did Machida win that fight???


----------



## UrbanBounca

D.P. said:


> I can't get over this...how the hell did Machida win that fight???


----------



## Sicilian_Esq

UrbanBounca said:


>


No, Dana said he believed Rua won. 

The correct answer is:


----------



## MaZZacare

i went back and rewatched the fight with out sound an i can see how Machida won a couple of the rounds but it was still WAY TO CLOSE TO CALL . he counterd more but neither where aggersive enough i think to go for a finish


----------



## Smiley Face

Sicilian_Esq said:


> No, Dana said he believed Rua won.
> 
> The correct answer is:


GOD DAMN THAT MAN... HOW DOES HE STILL HAVE A JOB???

**** him.


----------



## Alex_DeLarge

THe commentating was pathetic. Everytime Lyoto flurried on Shogun, they said nothing of it and literally screamed into their mic "COUNTER BY SHOGUN!" Sickening.


----------



## slapshot

Alex_DeLarge said:


> THe commentating was pathetic. Everytime Lyoto flurried on Shogun, they said nothing of it and literally screamed into their mic "COUNTER BY SHOGUN!" Sickening.


So you had to hear nuthuggery once a round big deal.


----------



## Sphoeninx

Machida is not a god of martial arts. A lot of people beleive Machida will figure it out next time blah blah blah. Why didn't he figured it out way ahead before this fight?

It appears though that Machida is seen as so an intelligent fighter and would figure out a better game plan against Shogun.

Don't discount Shogun. Now, that Shogun had a fair estimate of Lyoto's "ELUSIVENESS" and countering, at least i can assume that... 

There will be blood flowing in one of these fighters when that match happens and Machida will be destroyed mercilessly. The Ninja Slaying the Dragon.

That's is my prediction........


----------



## michelangelo

Goldberg and Rogan figured out what Shogun figured out: the biggest targets are the torso and legs, and that's what Rua attacked systematically. To the point that by the fifth round, Machida was either dispirited or too badly battered to mount an effective offense.

Shogun's leg kicks were indeed nasty, and while Machida's lean all the way back style allowed him to dodge punches to the face effectively, he doesn't have the range to avoid strikes to the body and legs. 

I'd have to rate Anderson as a clearly superior fighter pound for pound, or even without the pound for pound equalization factor. 

It's astonishing, but literally every fighter now in MMA has at least one clear weakness or vulnerability which can be exploited for a loss:

*Fedor: a long range, and disciplined striking attack (Arlovski)

Brock Lesnar: standup/boxing

Lyoto: kicks to the torso and legs (Shogun Rua)

Anderson: superior wrestling (Dan Henderson)

GSP: fast hands/striking (BJ Penn, Matt Serra)

BJ Penn: superior wrestling and size (GSP)*


----------



## joshua7789

michelangelo said:


> Goldberg and Rogan figured out what Shogun figured out: the biggest targets are the torso and legs, and that's what Rua attacked systematically. To the point that by the fifth round, Machida was either dispirited or too badly battered to mount an effective offense.
> 
> Shogun's leg kicks were indeed nasty, and while Machida's lean all the way back style allowed him to dodge punches to the face effectively, he doesn't have the range to avoid strikes to the body and legs.
> 
> I'd have to rate Anderson as a clearly superior fighter pound for pound, or even without the pound for pound equalization factor.
> 
> It's astonishing, but literally every fighter now in MMA has at least one clear weakness or vulnerability which can be exploited for a loss:
> 
> *Fedor: a long range, and disciplined striking attack (Arlovski)
> 
> Brock Lesnar: standup/boxing
> 
> Lyoto: kicks to the torso and legs (Shogun Rua)
> 
> Anderson: superior wrestling (Dan Henderson)
> 
> GSP: fast hands/striking (BJ Penn, Matt Serra)
> 
> BJ Penn: superior wrestling and size (GSP)*


CharlieZ: Being to much of a badass (CharlieZ)


----------



## ufcrules

Lousy fight. Shogun won. Crap decision. 'Nuff said.


----------



## No_Mercy

Watched the fight over and realized it was very very close. Everytime Shogun landed a kick Machida would too and or countered with a head shot. The thing is the leg kicks to the mid section and leg looked a lot flashier and you could hear it. That's why nobody really paid attention to Machida's head counters. It was a tit for tat battle. 

First and third round was clearly Machidas.
Fourth and fifth was Shogun. 
Second round was close. Could have been a draw or split either way. Even with a draw the champ retains the belt I believe. 

Think what really made the difference was that Machida did try to end the fight with the knees in the first round, knee when Shogun tried taking him down, and especially late in the third round he came in with a flurry landing a lot of power shots and kick combination. Out of that exchange Rua landed one right over hand. Reality Rua never really had Machida in danger he wore him down, but that's it. Had he tried to finish it in the latter rounds it could have been viewed differently in the eyes of the judges. 

I'm just trying to interpret what the judges probably saw too. Certainly deserves a rematch. 

Bottom line the msg has been sent. Anyone is beatable and Shogun is back!


----------



## Mckeever

You still think Rua was rocked and wobbled twice? lol, i hate fanboys.


----------



## Notoriousxpinoy

michelangelo said:


> Goldberg and Rogan figured out what Shogun figured out: the biggest targets are the torso and legs, and that's what Rua attacked systematically. To the point that by the fifth round, Machida was either dispirited or too badly battered to mount an effective offense.
> 
> Shogun's leg kicks were indeed nasty, and while Machida's lean all the way back style allowed him to dodge punches to the face effectively, he doesn't have the range to avoid strikes to the body and legs.
> 
> I'd have to rate Anderson as a clearly superior fighter pound for pound, or even without the pound for pound equalization factor.
> 
> It's astonishing, but literally every fighter now in MMA has at least one clear weakness or vulnerability which can be exploited for a loss:
> 
> *Fedor: a long range, and disciplined striking attack (Arlovski)
> 
> Brock Lesnar: standup/boxing
> 
> Lyoto: kicks to the torso and legs (Shogun Rua)
> 
> Anderson: superior wrestling (Dan Henderson)
> 
> GSP: fast hands/striking (BJ Penn, Matt Serra)
> 
> BJ Penn: superior wrestling and size (GSP)*


Pray-tell how is Long Range and disciplined striking attack was Fedor's weakness? He won that convincingly. It was never a time where you can actually sit there and say Fedor has ever been in danger of losing... seriously..

Anderson Silva to Dan? Are you serious... what exactly did Dan's wrestling do when he had him on the ground? Nothing.. exactly...

All this I can pick apart but I won't.. the logic is flawed.


----------



## JohnnyCrisp22

I think the problem is that when viewing the fight on a holistic level it looks like Shogun clearly was the winner.

However, when you look at it from the perspective of who won each individual round, it was pretty damn close. (Although I still think Shogun won 3-2)

Regardless, within that specific criteria I don't think it's right to say that the decision was ridiculously bad. It was bad, no doubt, but not to the degree that people are saying.

If you want to say the scoring system is flawed, then fair enough. But within the criteria they use, it was very close. (But again, I still think Shogun won rounds 1, 4 and 5, and should have won the fight)


----------



## Clivey

*Respect lost for Machida*

Anyone else lost some respect for the guy? it was clear the way he looked after the fight that he thought he had lost and then when he heard the result he changed his tune defending the judges. A real warrior would have ignored the judges call and handed the belt to the true winner. 

Machida looked indestructable before this fight but now it's obvious he's not on such a higher level than everyone else it's just the fact his fight base is Karate which alot of inexperienced people aren't used to, Shogun had more experience than Lyoto in this fight and it showed. So I jump from the Lyoto wagon onto Shoguns, who's with me?


----------



## oordeel

Not jumping off or on anyone's wagon, but I agree with the part where Machida is all for doing the 'honorable' thing, yet looked like a hypocrite after this fight.

Practice what you preach, imo.


----------



## streetpunk08

I would have liked to see Machida forfeit the belt but I can't blame him for the bad judging. Every time I watch this fight I get more pissed. I've watched it without sound, watched it looking only at Machida and I'm sorry I know there's alot of hardcore Lyoto fans on this forum but there's no way he won that fight, Shogun did more damage, landed more strikes, and controlled the pace of the fight. A rematch is cool but this situation really sucks for everyone at the moment.


----------



## Soojooko

Clivey said:


> Anyone else lost some respect for the guy? it was clear the way he looked after the fight that he thought he had lost and then when he heard the result he changed his tune defending the judges. A real warrior would have ignored the judges call and handed the belt to the true winner.
> 
> Machida looked indestructable before this fight but now it's obvious he's not on such a higher level than everyone else it's just the fact his fight base is Karate which alot of inexperienced people aren't used to, Shogun had more experience than Lyoto in this fight and it showed. So I jump from the Lyoto wagon onto Shoguns, who's with me?


What are you going on about? If you expected Machida to walk through Shogun then I can understand the lack of respect. BUT, anybody with some sense would have known Shogun was going to be really tough and it was. We saw a lot of positives about both fighters. Machida is a hard bastard thats for sure. At no stage did he buckle eating all that damage. Impressive. And Shogun... well Shogun was so far improved from the Chuck fight that I dare not think how he will look next. IVe gained massive respect for both.

If those who thought Machida was indestructible are now disappointed, then that's their problem, not Lyotos.


----------



## streetpunk08

Soojooko said:


> What are you going on about? If you expected Machida to walk through Shogun then I can understand the lack of respect. BUT, anybody with some sense would have known Shogun was going to be really tough and it was. We saw a lot of positives about both fighters. Machida is a hard bastard thats for sure. At no stage did he buckle eating all that damage. Impressive. And Shogun... well Shogun was so far improved from the Chuck fight that I dare not think how he will look next. IVe gained massive respect for both.
> 
> If those who thought Machida was indestructible are now disappointed, then that's their problem, not Lyotos.


I thought Shogun looked good in the Chuck fight but it didn't answer the biggest question people had about him coming into that fight which was his cardio since it ended in the 1st round. Lyoto is a vastly different style than Lidell so I think he was alot more disciplined and patient and exectued his gameplan. If Shogun was matched up with say Thiago Silva or Jardine I think Shogun would throw alot more punches and be alot more aggressive and try and get an early KO which obviously he didn't try agaisnt Lyoto. It was a real chess match and even though the same few are picking Lyoto to run through Shogun in the rematch I'm expecting another chess match even though I think both fighters will have more urgency to not let it go to the judges.


----------



## BazDaManUk

lol at defending honour and forfeiting a close fight that he won. Shogun will get his rematch. Machida for me, looks uncomfortable with the belt, as do a few champions for some reason, they would rather not lose it than defend it with the same intensity how they won it.

First of all, Machida did look a little dejected but it's probably because he was tired and in pain from some of the punishment he took to the legs. 

Second of all, watch the fight again, without the commentary and score it. The first three rounds COULD have been Machida's. It seemed the champion got the advantage from the judges and they were no way clear that Shogun took them. Just giving leg kicks won't win you the rounds, you have to follow up with other attacks. However they COULD have been scored for Shogun as well but they were so close and it just happened that the judges gave Machida them (well 2 out of 3 judges). 

The last two rounds were Shoguns, but just because he took his rounds slightly more convincingly doesn't mean he took the close rounds as well or that they don't for as much!

It is arguable that Machida won 3-2 on rounds and it's not even a robbery, just that Shogun was more active and won his rounds a bit more decisively.


----------



## N1™

i think machida overrtrained for this fight. he weighed in at 202. i think hell do alot better next time. And the dec. isnt lyotos fault. " give his belt away " grow up


----------



## RUmbleBOnes

No not really, still lots of respect for Machida. He lost to a superior fighter with a better game plan. Wait a minute, Oh yeah, Machida won:confused02:

Rua won in all areas of the fight. Stikes, power, aggression... Machida did buckle at least a couple of times from Shoguns leg kicks, and it apeared Lyoto was limping a bit at the latter stages.

Shogun will make Machida a better fighter in the long run.
Just like Hughes made GSP a better fighter after there first fight; and Alves will become better after his loss to GSP.

IMO:thumb02:


----------



## Soojooko

RUmbleBOnes said:


> Shogun will make Machida a better fighter in the long run. Just like Hughes made GSP a better fighter after there first fight; and Alves will become better after his loss to GSP.IMO:thumb02:


Without a doubt Shogun and Machida are exactly what each other need to improve. The rest of the division have a long wait to get a sniff.


----------



## jasvll

> it was clear the way he looked after the fight that he thought he had lost and then when he heard the result he changed his tune defending the judges.


Machida raised his hands up as soon as the fight was over, and what he tried to say was that all the judges agreed and it was their decision. Find better reasons to lose respect, like if Machida were to turn his back on someone he said he respected for no reason.


----------



## Uchaaa

plz not another crybaby.


----------



## ZeroPRIDE

N1™ said:


> i think machida overrtrained for this fight. he weighed in at 202. i think hell do alot better next time. And the dec. isnt lyotos fault. " give his belt away " grow up


pwned. Yea from the get go i sinced something wasnt right with machida. I think it was mental more than anything eles. Now that he got his first defence outta the way i think the true Machida will be back in the rematch.


----------



## DrHouse

I haven't really lost any respect for Lyoto, but truth be told I now realise he may not be as good as I thought he was. I expected him to pick apart Shogun like he picked apart Rashad but it didn't happen. The guy didn't force the judges to give him the fight, but thinking back to when Rampage won a fight in Pride and was clearly perplexed by the judges decision and actually told his opponent that he didn't win, a great show of class. Lyoto knew he lost that fight, you could see it in his face, maybe he should have admitted he didn't think he won the fight or at least have said he would wait until he saw the fight again. But I haven't lost any respect for him.


----------



## CornbreadBB

jasvll said:


> Machida raised his hands up as soon as the fight was over, and what he tried to say was that all the judges agreed and it was their decision. Find better reasons to lose respect, like if Machida were to turn his back on someone he said he respected for no reason.


Oh God, I wuv you.

Yeah, I deff lose respect for people over somethign they have no control over...it juts wouldn't make sense not to....


----------



## enceledus

why would you lose respect for machida? It wasn't his fault the judges chose him. You all would do the same fuckin' thing so get outta here with this stupid bull-shit post. It's so lame the way everyone disses Machida now as if he has something to do with the judges.


----------



## shatterproof

bandwagon hopping = lame, and the biggest problem with fair weather fans of mma.

giving your belt to someone after the judges say you win = just plain stupid man. no offence... to each their own, but that is ludicris.

You've lost respect for Machida for putting on a great fight, and accepting a rematch immiedietly? Somehow... i don't think he'll lose sleep tonight.


----------



## K R Y

N1™ said:


> i think machida overrtrained for this fight. he weighed in at 202. i think hell do alot better next time. And the dec. isnt lyotos fault. " give his belt away " grow up


Pretty much sums up my thoughts. Thanks N1.


----------



## amoosenamedhank

Clivey said:


> Anyone else lost some respect for the guy? it was clear the way he looked after the fight that he thought he had lost and then when he heard the result he changed his tune defending the judges. A real warrior would have ignored the judges call and handed the belt to the true winner.
> 
> Machida looked indestructable before this fight but now it's obvious he's not on such a higher level than everyone else it's just the fact his fight base is Karate which alot of inexperienced people aren't used to, Shogun had more experience than Lyoto in this fight and it showed. So I jump from the Lyoto wagon onto Shoguns, who's with me?


I'm still reading through all of the responses... but your post was so ridiculous I just had to say something before I could even finish reading the entire thread... 

You have got to be kidding me...what, you honestly wanted him to walk across the ring, hand Shogun the belt and walk away? Were you dropped on your head?... no seriously? 

Agree with it or not, it was the official judges ruling.... so live with it.


----------



## vandalian

Look for an improved Machida to hit the cage for the rematch. Should be interesting stuff.


----------



## Ansem

I think you guys are all underestimating Machida after that one fight, i'm sure he wants to win this rematch with a noticeable difference and he's probably going to master catching leg kicks and throwing bombs just like Anderson. When this rematch is done Machida will be back on top undisputed, along with the respect he earned.


----------



## Sicilian_Esq

No, no respect lost. Most of these fighters think they are winning the fight, even when others clearly see he or she is losing. 

It's a matter of subjective perspective. Lyoto saw what he was doing, and it obviously would get more weight in his head. 

If any respect is lost, it should be once again for the refs. Make them explain their decisions and thought processes, and what they are looking for, so when these fighters come to the cage, they know how they should be fighting.

Using the most known ref available, "What does Cecil want?" Because, quite frankly, his opinion is all that matters. He dictates who wins and who loses. If he only cares about slugfests, well, you better be throwing punches, irregardless of how effective they are, b/c that's how you'll win... BJJ is out the door on him. Or you better submit your opponent.


----------



## HitOrGetHit

shatterproof said:


> bandwagon hopping = lame, and the biggest problem with fair weather fans of mma.
> 
> giving your belt to someone after the judges say you win = just plain stupid man. no offence... to each their own, but that is ludicris.
> 
> You've lost respect for Machida for putting on a great fight, and accepting a rematch immiedietly? Somehow... i don't think he'll lose sleep tonight.


I agree. How can you lose respect for a fighter for putting on a show like that? That is ridiculous.


----------



## Canadian Psycho

I also believe that Lyoto is as good as he ever was. You don't completely pick apart skilled fighters like Evans and Thiago without being skilled yourself. I keep saying this, yet some are unwilling to listen, because they refuse to think logically. Saturday's fight serves not as a reason to question Machida's skills, but more as a testament to Shogun's. Most UFC fans have opted to judge his career solely on the basis of his UFC bouts, completely ignorant to the fact that the man has an entire history pre-dating his run with Ultimate Fighting Championship. Do some research and it's quite clear that Shogun is more than capable of dealing with any LHW fighter.

Having said that, I still see Machida as being right up there, deserving of his place. For all the pressure that was on him, he did not fold, buckle, or quit. It was a razor thin fight, and though I personally scored it for Rua, I can understand why a decision might and indeed did go to Lyoto. I'd be willing to bet that if you place either fighter against any other LHW, you're likely to see a dominant performance from both. But put them against one another, and you'll consistently wind up with a fairly even playing field. One could easily say that if Shogun were that good, he would have finished Machida. If we're going to question Lyoto, then surely we have to question Shogun. Which is why I choose to question neither. They're both clearly the top of their division, and I cannot wait for their second encounter.


----------



## Notoriousxpinoy

Ansem said:


> As we can see the fight yesterday, decision could have gone either way, Machida landing the golden hits while Shogun doing the actual damage primarily on the legs. What i noted from this fight either bad decision or not, Machida defintly wasn't the one we seen at UFC 98, *do you think he lost his touch after winning the championship belt?*


Why are people so quick to make excuses for any fighter? Lyoto was getting beat down and the best you can say is that assume that Lyoto wasn't 100%?

I'm not a Shogun fan btw.. but it's appalling what some of the Machida fans have said about this fight. From "Lyoto looked different this fight" to "It wasn't even close" to "Shogun will get destroyed next fight". All of this are based on? The fact that Machida(who just doesn't lose composure and it's one of his strengths) was very frustrated. Just take a look at his face at round 5. He looked defeated.

How many of you Machida fans even said that Shogun would put up a fight before the fight?

Anyways, again, I'm not a huge Shogun fan but holy hell.. some people are ridiculous. I personally think that Shogun would get destroyed by Rashad, Rampage(In a rematch), and Anderson Silva due their ability to hit super hard with one punch.


----------



## Clivey

I think some of you misunderstand what I said, Lyoto put on an amazing performance but still got clearly beaten by Shogun. It would be more honourable to admit you think the judges were wrong than to just side with them because theyre the 'judges' 

Machida was cheered for heavily at the start of the fight but when it became clear he was losing the chants stopped and turned to jeers when the final result was announced that enough should let him know something isn't right. I'm not saying im pissed at Lyoto because hes still one of my favourite fighters I just imagined he wouldn't feel honourable keeping the belt when it's obvious Shogun won. I guess you shouldn't judge a book by its cover and maybe hes just as shallow as the rest of the world.


----------



## vandalian

He was hardly getting "beat down." Yeah, maybe he lost, but not beat down.


----------



## JWP

Soojooko said:


> Without a doubt Shogun and Machida are exactly what each other need to improve. The rest of the division have a long wait to get a sniff.



well said. your other post too

we should just be grateful that its not like the middleweight division has been forever with Anderson


----------



## Carlitoz3

All you bullies leave Machida alone!


----------



## Ansem

vandalian said:


> He was hardly getting "beat down." Yeah, maybe he lost, but not beat down.


Lol yeah, sure his legs were battered up but he was still giving Shogun second thoughts about whether to move in closer or not till the very end.


----------



## Canadian Psycho

Clivey said:


> I think some of you misunderstand what I said, Lyoto put on an amazing performance but still got clearly beaten by Shogun. It would be more honourable to admit you think the judges were wrong than to just side with them because theyre the 'judges'
> 
> Machida was cheered for heavily at the start of the fight but when it became clear he was losing the chants stopped and turned to jeers when the final result was announced that enough should let him know something isn't right. I'm not saying im pissed at Lyoto because hes still one of my favourite fighters I just imagined he wouldn't feel honourable keeping the belt when it's obvious Shogun won. I guess you shouldn't judge a book by its cover and maybe hes just as shallow as the rest of the world.


Perhaps the look on Machida's face was one of uncertainty, and not defeat. There's a difference.


----------



## jasvll

Clivey said:


> I think some of you misunderstand what I said, Lyoto put on an amazing performance but still got clearly beaten by Shogun. It would be more honourable to admit you think the judges were wrong than to just side with them because theyre the 'judges'
> 
> Machida was cheered for heavily at the start of the fight but when it became clear he was losing the chants stopped and turned to jeers when the final result was announced that enough should let him know something isn't right. I'm not saying im pissed at Lyoto because hes still one of my favourite fighters I just imagined he wouldn't feel honourable keeping the belt when it's obvious Shogun won. I guess you shouldn't judge a book by its cover and maybe hes just as shallow as the rest of the world.


The crowd chants went back and forth after Shogun's support started to grow. The cheers and boos were mixed after the announcement of the winner. Machida was in the ring during the fight, not watching at home, from the audience, or judging from ringside. Win or lose, he had just gone the distance in the toughest fight of his career, leaving him visibly exhausted and injured, making it highly unlikely that assessing whether or not the judges 48-47 unanimous decision in his favor should be overturned was his top priority, and it really shouldn't have been, even if it would have preserved mmaforum user 'Clivey''s respect for him.

Again:


Me said:


> Find better reasons to lose respect, like if Machida were to turn his back on someone he said he respected for no reason.


----------



## MMA Poser

*Judge Cecil Peoples Talks Machida vs. Shogun*



> First some background on Cecil Peoples. He has been a long time mixed martial artists who holds a black belt in Karate. He has both refereed and judged many mixed martial arts bouts including being one of the judges for the controversial Michael Bisping vs. Matt Hamil fight. Most importantly, he was one of the judges for the Machida vs. Shogun fight and he spoke about his decision:
> 
> “First of all what you need to understand is that from where the judges are sitting, we get to see things that the fans at home may miss. Mauricio Rua was being aggressive but it wasn’t effective aggressiveness which is what we as the judges look for when scoring a fight. The way I saw it, Lyoto was landing the more cleaner and damaging strikes throughout the fight – if you take a look at the judging criteria clean strikes are valued more-so than the quantity of strikes landed. Although Rua threw a lot of low kicks they were not as damaging as Lyotos diverse attack in the earlier rounds which is why I scored the first three rounds for Machida. You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don’t do that.”
> 
> “When both fighters are engaged in a striking match what I always look for is the fighter who is being judicious, picking his spots, being accurate and landing the cleaner strikes which ultimately is what Lyoto did more effectively than Rua. Lyoto made Shogun come after him, he determined where the fight took place which in my opinion constitutes as effective Octagon control. I recognize the fact that Rua did have a few takedown attempts during the course of the fight however Lyoto defended them all successfully which counts as effective grappling in his favour, where as ununsuccessful takedown attempts are not scored at all. Therefore going by that criteria, I believe Lyoto won the fight clearly. I’m just glad the other judges on the panel saw it the same way and I’m sure the fans who understand the technicalities of the sport agree with the decision too.” - mmaposers.com


Does this help with the anger or just piss you off even more?


----------



## Jammaster J

haven't lost respect but after that fight i think he's a bit overrated people putting him on andersons level is a joke and one of the best pound for pound. Shogun won that fight,i dunno what fight the judges were watching


----------



## Hammerlock2.0

So basically if your opponent blocks 5 out of 10 shots and lands 3 out of 3 he gets more points? And what is that stuff about the octagon control? That makes no sense at all!


----------



## Soojooko

The key quote for me:-

"You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don’t do that."

I agree here. Shogun never even once attempted to finish Lyoto or even got himself in the position to finish. Thats never going to look good in a championship bout.

However, he's talking rubbish if he didn't think Shogun was landing some meaningful kicks. He kind of contradicts himself, as he gave the last two rounds to Rua. This would imply that the damage Rua caused in the first 3 rounds did indeed have some serious impact on Lyotos performance.


----------



## amoosenamedhank

There is a legitimate argument for the decision to go either way.... get over it already. There is going to be a rematch... so Shogun will get his chance.

ONCE AGAIN... it is Shogun's fault for letting the judges decide his fate.


----------



## Toxie

I thought the fighter who lands the most hits wins. Plus, Shogun was going after Lyoto and Lyoto was trying to keep his distance. Kaleb Starnes should have won his fight if that's judging criteria. I think this is all BS. He also failed to notice the vicious knees to the body that Shogun landed and the damage he did to Lyoto's knee. And how do leg kicks not finish the fight? Watch Bas Rutten vs WarPath, among others. 

Reading this pissed me off even more. My mother could have judged that fight better.


----------



## imrik32

How do the judges see things that we at home miss? We have multiple camera angles that peer INSIDE the octagon with instant and slo-mo replay. If he thinks the judges have a better view then he's smoking something.


----------



## natryl21

Ansem said:


> Lol yeah, sure his legs were battered up but he was still giving Shogun second thoughts about whether to move in closer or not till the very end.


Yea he was giving Shogun second thoughts because Machida would back pedal like a Cornerback anytime he tried to move in closer. Shogun would of been winded just because of that if he decided to fight that fight.


----------



## Toroian

"Rua did have a few takedown attempts during the course of the fight however Lyoto defended them all successfully which counts as effective grappling in his favour, where as ununsuccessful takedown attempts are not scored at all"

If shogun didnt go for take downs he WOULD of won the fight as he failed and gave points to machida and also ate knees every time he went for it lolz

Also i agree with the ref on this fight after watching the fight and keeping the rules in mind


----------



## coldcall420

N1™ said:


> i think machida overrtrained for this fight. he weighed in at 202. i think hell do alot better next time. And the dec. isnt lyotos fault. " give his belt away " grow up


^^^THIS^^^

When has anyone ever given their belt up for what the general fans felt was a bad call. People mention Lyoto's Honor, he felt he won the fight...would you give the belt up if you thought you won....NO!!!


----------



## Toroian

Soojooko said:


> The key quote for me:-
> 
> "You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don’t do that."
> 
> I agree here. Shogun never even once attempted to finish Lyoto or even got himself in the position to finish. Thats never going to look good in a championship bout.
> 
> However, he's talking rubbish if he didn't think Shogun was landing some meaningful kicks. He kind of contradicts himself, as he gave the last two rounds to Rua. This would imply that the damage Rua caused in the first 3 rounds did indeed have some serious impact on Lyotos performance.


shogun only started going for machidas head in the last 2 rounds thats when machida got cut up in the first 3 he just weaked the legd and slowed machida down its SHOGUNS fault for not trying to finish when he had machida slowed down!


----------



## sk double i

Octagon control should not have gone mahcida's way. Cecil is just making excuses now. Shogun was the one stalking for the majority of the fight, machida was side stepping the entire time - that is not octagon control. 

Machida does time his kicks and punches very well. Though none of them were landing, except a few knees when shogun went in for a strike. You couldnt tell from the video of those were landing or doing any damage to Shogun's midsection. 

The fact that he has to come out and justify his decision makes me question him even more.


----------



## famoussd

MMA Poser said:


> Although Rua threw a lot of low kicks they were not as damaging as Lyotos diverse attack in the earlier rounds which is why I scored the first three rounds for Machida. You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don’t do that.”
> 
> "I recognize the fact that Rua did have a few takedown attempts during the course of the fight however Lyoto defended them all successfully which counts as effective grappling in his favour, where as ununsuccessful takedown attempts are not scored at all. Therefore going by that criteria, I believe Lyoto won the fight clearly.


Cecil Peoples is a TOOL. The leg kicks took Machida out of his game.. and takedown defense?? you get points for defending a takedown but not attempting. What kind of BS is that? It's clear that he already had Machida as the winner of this bout before the fight even started.


----------



## amoosenamedhank

famoussd said:


> Cecil Peoples is a TOOL. The leg kicks took Machida out of his game.. and takedown defense?? you get points for defending a takedown but not attempting. What kind of BS is that? It's clear that he already had Machida as the winner of this bout before the fight even started.


so you should get points for trying to punch someone... regardless if you hit them or not? :sarcastic05:


----------



## Mckeever

coldcall420 said:


> ^^^THIS^^^
> 
> When has anyone ever given their belt up for what the general fans felt was a bad call. People mention Lyoto's Honor, he felt he won the fight...would you give the belt up if you thought you won....NO!!!


Lyoto felt he had lost this fight, it was written all over his god damn face. You could see it during the interview wth Rogan and you could see it when it shown footage of him in the dressing room, head looking down to the floor, completely silent (is that the reaction you would expect to see from some one who truly believes they had won and just defended their title?

This nonsense about Machida handing his belt over to Rua is Ludicrous though. Please don't hate the guy for some thing he has no control over, thats just stupid.


----------



## flexor

Effective aggressiveness? Shogun's footwork and positioning wee severely limiting Machida's elusiveness. He did a better job of dictating the pace of the fight.

Landing the more cleaner and damaging strikes throughout the fight? I don't think it's out of line to say that Machida was more damaged after that fight than Shogun. 

"You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight" to "Lyoto made Shogun come after him"
Seems like somewhat of a contradiction.

"Lyoto won the fight clearly"

This is the problem with judging in MMA. While you can point out all the "technical" you want, the system needs fixed. I say this as a fan of the sport. 

Not impressed Cecil.


----------



## Davisty69

famoussd said:


> Cecil Peoples is a TOOL. The leg kicks took Machida out of his game.. and takedown defense?? *you get points for defending a takedown but not attempting. What kind of BS is that?* It's clear that he already had Machida as the winner of this bout before the fight even started.


Are you saying that based upon Octagon control, a failed takedown is equivalent to a defended takedown? That part, out of everything Peoples said, is the clearest.

I try and take you to the ground, I fail because you defended it. You controlled me.


----------



## Toroian

famoussd said:


> Cecil Peoples is a TOOL. The leg kicks took Machida out of his game.. and takedown defense?? you get points for defending a takedown but not attempting. What kind of BS is that? It's clear that he already had Machida as the winner of this bout before the fight even started.


Its called skill to defened a take down.... it means you dictate where the fight takes place and sgofun could not get machida down they had to fight a stand up war. asshole


----------



## Clivey




----------



## enufced904

Mckeever said:


> Lyoto felt he had lost this fight, it was written all over his god damn face. You could see it during the interview wth Rogan and you could see it when it shown footage of him in the dressing room, head looking down to the floor, completely silent (is that the reaction you would expect to see from some one who truly believes they had won and just defended their title?
> 
> This nonsense about Machida handing his belt over to Rua is Ludicrous though. Please don't hate the guy for some thing he has no control over, thats just stupid.


I think this just shows that he was disappointed in his performance. I think I would feel the same... as if I let myself down and all the fans.


----------



## Mckeever

enufced904 said:


> I think this just shows that he was disappointed in his performance. I think I would feel the same... as if I let myself down and all the fans.


Sorry man, but i completely disagree. Lyoto thought he had definitely lost that fight. Even if you were disappointed with your performance but still believed you had won, you wouldn't be hanging your head in the dressing room post fight, not in some kind of way celebrating.


----------



## vandalian

Clivey said:


>


Yeah, cause, you, know, great fighters never get punched.










This Machida guy must be a loser.


----------



## famoussd

I think an attempted takedown, then the blocking of the takedown should nullify each other. Doesn't make sense that you get points on one and not the other.

Does the same rule apply for submission attempts/escapes?



MMA Poser said:


> Does this help with the anger or just piss you off even more?





Davisty69 said:


> Are you saying that based upon Octagon control, a failed takedown is equivalent to a defended takedown? That part, out of everything Peoples said, is the clearest.
> 
> I try and take you to the ground, I fail because you defended it. You controlled me.


----------



## Mckeever

vandalian said:


> Yeah, cause, you, know, great fighters never get punched.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Machida guy must be a loser.


Calm down man, im sure he meant it as a joke and it is a funny picture.


----------



## famoussd

Toroian said:


> Its called skill to defened a take down.... it means you dictate where the fight takes place and sgofun could not get machida down they had to fight a stand up war. asshole


Uh yea, a stand up war that Shogun clearly won!


----------



## vandalian

Mckeever said:


> Calm down man, im sure he meant it as a joke and it is a funny picture.


I've never been more calm. I just wonder why Machida is suddenly being shit on from all angles.


----------



## Toroian

famoussd said:


> Uh yea, a stand up war that Shogun clearly won!


In rounds 4 and 5 yes in rounds 1-3 maybe not if shogun felt he was winning why he go for the takes down that in the end LOST him the fight ?


----------



## King JLB

vandalian said:


> I've never been more calm. I just wonder why Machida is suddenly being shit on from all angles.


because he's been the closest to a sure thing we've seen in quite some time, and he got owned. Maybe owned is a little harsh, but he was pretty beat up after wards. When you compare this elusive, unbeatable fighter to the guy who got his legs chopped and face cut open from Saturday, people are going to shit on him. His bandwagon lost a lot of members.

I was positive he'd destroy shogun but was really surprised/excited with how the fight went down. I don't agree with the decision, but i do think a rematch will most likely settle all this. And for the record I do NOT think the rematch will resemble the first fight at all. They will both come in with totally different game plans. I expect a knockout.


----------



## vandalian

Yeah, owned is a bit harsh. The fighter who wins doesn't always do more cosmetic damage.

But yeah, I imagine they will have something different to show us in a rematch. I just hope both guys stay healthy so it happens sooner rather than later.


----------



## HitOrGetHit

vandalian said:


> I've never been more calm. I just wonder why Machida is suddenly being shit on from all angles.


its simple. shogun has a big fanbase. so when he lost, all of his fangirls got their panties up in a bunch.

i mean c'mon im not a huge fan of either of these fighters so i am not being biased. its one thing to say you think your fighter won. but that doesnt mean that the other fighter is all of the sudden a bad fighter or overrated or whatever. 

it was a great fight all the way through. why cant everyone just be happy for the great show these fighters put on instead of constantly bashing them?


----------



## ZeroPRIDE

Toxie said:


> I thought the fighter who lands the most hits wins. Plus, Shogun was going after Lyoto and Lyoto was trying to keep his distance. Kaleb Starnes should have won his fight if that's judging criteria. I think this is all BS. He also failed to notice the vicious knees to the body that Shogun landed and the damage he did to Lyoto's knee. *And how do leg kicks not finish the fight? *Watch Bas Rutten vs WarPath, among others.
> 
> Reading this pissed me off even more. My mother could have judged that fight better.


Its just very rare to see leg kicks finish a fight(in MMA) which is why it might be scored less in the judges eyes.


----------



## HitOrGetHit

ZeroPRIDE said:


> Its just very rare to see leg kicks win a fight(in MMA) which is why it might be scored less in the judges eyes.


yeah but hey thats what got Jardine past Liddell and Forrest past Rampage


----------



## No_Mercy

HitOrGetHit said:


> its simple. shogun has a big fanbase. so when he lost, all of his fangirls got their panties up in a bunch.
> 
> i mean c'mon im not a huge fan of either of these fighters so i am not being biased. its one thing to say you think your fighter won. but that doesnt mean that the other fighter is all of the sudden a bad fighter or overrated or whatever.
> 
> it was a great fight all the way through. why cant everyone just be happy for the great show these fighters put on instead of constantly bashing them?


Yah it's unfortunate, but that's the way it goes. Here are the key points. I look at all points of views and angles. Justifying what the judges probably saw not what the masses wanted. 

- boxing judges vs MMA judges
- close rounds where Rua's cornerman said he won em all thus giving him a false sense of security. Rua already stated this in the interview that's why he played it safe. 
- Rua should have finished the fight if he truly wanted the belt. It's the only definitive way to do it. All of his previous fights have pretty much been KOs and TKOs. Why not this one. 

Too many jump the bandwagon fans in this game. Rather than say "he got robbed," "this or that," come up with an intelligent anlaysis.

Anthony Johnson getting poked in the eye and losing in a TKO was terrible. 

Rampage vs Griffin was pretty close up there although the latter won by points ironically by leg kicks. 

Fedor losing with a TKO by none other than a cut. 

In sports one has to consider the different perspectives and sometimes even human error. Each referee, judge, player, coach, TV analysis, and fan sees it from six different angles if not more. 

In this case it happens to be the former. If you can't deal with it then go watch WWE.


----------



## Alex_DeLarge

Sphoeninx said:


> Machida is not a god of martial arts. A lot of people beleive Machida will figure it out next time blah blah blah. Why didn't he figured it out way ahead before this fight?
> 
> It appears though that Machida is seen as so an intelligent fighter and would figure out a better game plan against Shogun.
> 
> Don't discount Shogun. Now, that Shogun had a fair estimate of Lyoto's "ELUSIVENESS" and countering, at least i can assume that...
> 
> There will be blood flowing in one of these fighters when that match happens and Machida will be destroyed mercilessly. The Ninja Slaying the Dragon.
> 
> That's is my prediction........


Nice. Next time, try making an account and talking your "I told you" speech BEFORE the fight actually occurs. Thanks.


----------



## ZeroPRIDE

HitOrGetHit said:


> yeah but hey thats what got Jardine past Liddell and Forrest past Rampage


While i agree with that i was talking about using leg kicks to finish a fight ie Pat Barry v who ever it was. 

edited post. Took out win and inserted finish.


----------



## HitOrGetHit

No_Mercy said:


> .
> - Rua should have finished the fight if he truly wanted the belt. It's the only definitive way to do it.


This is very true. If you leave the outcome of the fight in another person's hands then you cant blame them for having their opinion.


----------



## Sekou

reminds me of when Vitor poked Randy in the eye and got the belt......ehhhhh:thumbsdown:


----------



## Jimdon

> “ You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don’t do that.”


^^^ This.

I think most of us realize that Shogun outpointed Machida in the fight, and barring a draw, which it probably should have been called, Shogun won the fight. That being said, I would have hated to see a title change hands in a fight where the challenger posed no significant danger of ending the fight.

Legkicks are effective tools, and should be scored as such, but except for a few cases (usually involving opponents with mismatched skill-sets) they rarely finish fights, and i have always been of the opinion to take someones title you have to soundly beat them, which Shogun failed to do.

Regardless of the outcome of the fight, this one needs five more rounds to truly declare a victor.


----------



## alizio

how are you suppsoed to end the fight vs machida?? tell me?? lol this is ridic and what everybody is saying is that if your the champ, you should run away from exchanges the entire match, cuz even if u get outpointed, you cant lose.


----------



## Sicilian_Esq

alizio said:


> how are you suppsoed to end the fight vs machida?? tell me?? lol this is ridic and what everybody is saying is that if your the champ, you should run away from exchanges the entire match, cuz even if u get outpointed, you cant lose.


Not necessarily, but it does give deference to an evasive champion. 

Quite frankly, if Dana & Co. shrink the octagon, like they are thinking of doing, Machida is going to have one hell of a time keeping the belt.


----------



## alizio

a heart of discipline, a student of technique, Mauricio "Shogun" Rua is a fighter as dangerous as they come....

and now.... the Shogun.... is the Peoples Champion 


has a good ring to it, if Shogun has some funny sounding broken english.


----------



## Seperator88

This is why title fights shouldn't have a set number of rounds. Imagine if you had to fight until someone was finished, Shogun would've won the fight. Machida wouldn't have been able to walk soon and plus he was definetely the more tired. The fight would've looked similar to that Vegas commercial where the guy is celebrating a contest where you hit another man in the leg with a stick and the winner gets to wed the female.


----------



## name goes here

Body kicks do end fights though...


----------



## No_Mercy

HitOrGetHit said:


> This is very true. If you leave the outcome of the fight in another person's hands then you cant blame them for having their opinion.


Had money on Machida and knew it wasn't looking too good. Another round or two Rua would have taken Machida out. Noticed the huge welts on his thigh which hampered his movement. He'd step to the side after finishing his 1-2 with a lead in kick as Machida would circle or side step left. That was definitely tactics he studied. On top of that Shogun has such a high guard that he blocked a lot of counters. NOTE: Machida still hit em in the head, just didn't seem effective. 

Problem was he didn't go in for the kill. It's a catch 22. He goes in gets knocked out people will say "he was winning the fight, why did he do that." Actually very suprised that Shogun fought such a tactical and technical battle. He always comes in like a caged animal. I'm sure the betting odds will be a lot closer next time around. Not only that Shogun will come the killer instinct this time around. All in all great fight too bad there was so much supposed controversy behind it. 

LHW: BJ Penn subs out Joe Stevenson
WW: GSP TKOs Matt Hughes
MW: A. Silva KOs Franklin
LHW: Rampage KOs Liddell
Rashad TKOs Griffin
Lyoto KOs Rashad
HW: Lesnar TKOs Couture

Just like in Mortal Kombat gotta "FINISH EM!"


----------



## 420atalon

Cecil Peoples is a f***ing idiot.



> "First of all what you need to understand is that from where the judges are sitting, we get to see things that the fans at home may miss. Mauricio Rua was being aggressive but it wasn't effective aggressiveness which is what we as the judges look for when scoring a fight. The way I saw it, Lyoto was landing the more cleaner and damaging strikes throughout the fight - if you take a look at the judging criteria clean strikes are valued more-so than the quantity of strikes landed. Although Rua threw a lot of low kicks they were not as damaging as Lyotos diverse attack in the earlier rounds which is why I scored the first three rounds for Machida."


Yeah, Machida's punches being blocked by Shogun were really clean strikes... How come it was Machida limping like a wounded duck and having a beat up face after the fight not the other way around if he was the one inflicting the greater damage...



> "You have to keep in mind we always the favor the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don't do that."


Patrick Barry says hi... As well as Forrest Griffin. Leg kicks do win fights and cripple your opponent. 



> "When both fighters are engaged in a striking match what I always look for is the fighter who is being judicious, picking his spots, being accurate and landing the cleaner strikes which ultimately is what Lyoto did more effectively than Rua. Lyoto made Shogun come after him, he determined where the fight took place which in my opinion constitutes as effective Octagon control."


Lyoto controled the octagon by letting Shogun control the octagon? Wtf? Shogun pushed forward and pushed Lyoto where he wanted. 



> "I recognize the fact that Rua did have a few takedown attempts during the course of the fight however Lyoto defended them all successfully which counts as effective grappling in his favor, where as unsuccessful takedown attempts are not scored at all. Therefore going by that criteria, I believe Lyoto won the fight clearly. I'm just glad the other judges on the panel saw it the same way and I'm sure the fans who understand the technicalities of the sport agree with the decision too."


I can understand that takedown attempts don't con't for much but even when Shogun failed he usually let go with a good clean elbow to Machidas face. Maybe he should learn to not count blocked punches too...

As for the last sentence. Go f*** yourself Peoples, maybe if you understood the technicalities of the sport you wouldn't be considered a f***ing moron.


----------



## coldcall420

420atalon said:


> Cecil Peoples is a f***ing idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, Machida's punches being blocked by Shogun were really clean strikes... How come it was Machida limping like a wounded duck and having a beat up face after the fight not the other way around if he was the one inflicting the greater damage...
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick Barry says hi... As well as Forrest Griffin. Leg kicks do win fights and cripple your opponent.
> 
> 
> 
> Lyoto controled the octagon by letting Shogun control the octagon? Wtf? Shogun pushed forward and pushed Lyoto where he wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand that takedown attempts don't con't for much but even when Shogun failed he usually let go with a good clean elbow to Machidas face. Maybe he should learn to not count blocked punches too...
> 
> As for the last sentence. Go f*** yourself Peoples, maybe if you understood the technicalities of the sport you wouldn't be considered a f***ing moron.


 
420 You got a link for that source dude...thanks!!!!:thumbsup: FTR...leg kicks never finish fights, they may incapacitate a fighter and leave him a sitting duck to get finished off, but the only fight i ever saw end due to leg kicks was Robbie Lawler and he quit if I recall correctly, the leg kicks do however put your opponent in a position in which they can be finished....Shogun didnt finish him...


----------



## D.P.

Lol, I still don't get it. How the squirrel tongue did Machida win?


----------



## Mckeever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUW8PuNaLJw
There have been plenty of fights that ended via low kicks in MMA and Kickboxing orginizations. Dont assume that it doesnt hurt just because it doesnt look like it does.

Shogun took little to no damage when Machida countered and in the flurries that looked good for Machida actually went better for Shogun... Except very early in round 1. Also, a failed takedown counts as neutral, so Machida gets no points for defending them.

Machida was icing his legs after the first round, and well into the fight he could barely move around. Did you notice how Machida stayed stationary after a while while Shogun was floatin around?

It still baffles me as to how people can think Machda won this fight. Ceclils quote (makes absolutely zero sense);

"Lyoto made Shogun come after him, he determined where the fight took place which in my opinion constitutes as effective Octagon control"

That isn't Octagon control moron. Controlling the center of the ring and imposing offense is effective control. This is the first time I've ever seen someone say backing up, getting pinned on the cage, and attacked is "effective Octagon control."


----------



## 420atalon

coldcall420 said:


> 420 You got a link for that source dude...thanks!!!!:thumbsup: FTR...leg kicks never finish fights, they may incapacitate a fighter and leave him a sitting duck to get finished off, but the only fight i ever saw end due to leg kicks was Robbie Lawler and he quit if I recall correctly, the leg kicks do however put your opponent in a position in which they can be finished....Shogun didnt finish him...


http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog/ca...ples-Good-fans-understand-why-?urn=mma,198213

Maybe you should check out Patrick Barry's record...

3 kickboxing TKO's by low kick and 3 MMA TKO's by leg kicks including his win over Dan Evensen

Sure Shogun wasn't kicking that hard but it is still crippling the other fighter.

Are you telling me that if there were two fighters that boxed the whole fight and the one landed "cleaner" shots but could barely fight because his face was all swollen up and his body battered while the other guy although taking "cleaner" shots comes out unfazed and looking like he could fight again that the first guy should win? 

In simple words, the fighter that gets his ass kicked loses. That wasn't Shogun in this fight, and had Shogun known that he was going to get robbed I bet he could have finished Machida in the final round. Machida gave up, you could see it in his eyes and his movements. He didn't go for the win and when they were waiting for the judges decision he was broken and knew he should have lost.

Maybe some people will stick by Cecil Peoples decisions but I will go by the thousands of fans and by the fighters themselves. They knew/know who actually won that fight and it isn't the one that is wearing the belt right now.


----------



## coldcall420

Mckeever said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUW8PuNaLJw
> There have been plenty of fights that ended via low kicks in MMA and Kickboxing orginizations. Dont assume that it doesnt hurt just because it doesnt look like it does.
> 
> Shogun took little to no damage when Machida countered and in the flurries that looked good for Machida actually went better for Shogun... Except very early in round 1. Also, a failed takedown counts as neutral, so Machida gets no points for defending them.
> 
> Machida was icing his legs after the first round, and well into the fight he could barely move around. Did you notice how Machida stayed stationary after a while while Shogun was floatin around?
> 
> It still baffles me as to how people can think Machda won this fight. Ceclils quote (makes absolutely zero sense);
> 
> "Lyoto made Shogun come after him, he determined where the fight took place which in my opinion constitutes as effective Octagon control"
> 
> That isn't Octagon control moron. Controlling the center of the ring and imposing offense is effective control. This is the first time I've ever seen someone say backing up, getting pinned on the cage, and attacked is "effective Octagon control."


 
Is this post for me mckeever???


----------



## Mckeever

coldcall420 said:


> Is this post for me mckeever???


Its for everyone that still thinks Machida won the fight.


----------



## HitOrGetHit

man why are people getting so bent out of shape about this. at the end of the day its just a sport. to everyone calling each other names, i have two words...GROW UP!


----------



## coldcall420

Mckeever said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUW8PuNaLJw
> There have been plenty of fights that ended via low kicks in MMA and Kickboxing orginizations. Dont assume that it doesnt hurt just because it doesnt look like it does.
> 
> Shogun took little to no damage when Machida countered and in the flurries that looked good for Machida actually went better for Shogun... Except very early in round 1. Also, a failed takedown counts as neutral, so Machida gets no points for defending them.
> 
> Machida was icing his legs after the first round, and well into the fight he could barely move around. Did you notice how Machida stayed stationary after a while while Shogun was floatin around?
> 
> It still baffles me as to how people can think Machda won this fight. Ceclils quote (makes absolutely zero sense);
> 
> "Lyoto made Shogun come after him, he determined where the fight took place which in my opinion constitutes as effective Octagon control"
> 
> *That isn't Octagon control moron.* Controlling the center of the ring and imposing offense is effective control. This is the first time I've ever seen someone say backing up, getting pinned on the cage, and attacked is "effective Octagon control."


 
See the bold part, go ahead and let me know who you are calling a moron, just for clarification, you dont write that when your addressing everyone....so who was it meant for???


----------



## vandalian

HitOrGetHit said:


> man why are people getting so bent out of shape about this. at the end of the day its just a sport. to everyone calling each other names, i have two words...GROW UP!


Shut up, stupid!


----------



## HitOrGetHit

coldcall420 said:


> See the bold part, go ahead and let me know who you are calling a moron, just for clarification, you dont write that when your addressing everyone....so who was it meant for???


ok if you know it was for you then why are you digging more and more? just let it go man. this thread is about the fight, not about who called you a name.


----------



## Mckeever

coldcall420 said:


> See the bold part, go ahead and let me know who you are calling a moron, just for clarification, you dont write that when your addressing everyone....so who was it meant for???


You misinterpreted it man. I was quoting the judge Cecil and was referring to him as the moron. No one on this forum.


----------



## coldcall420

420atalon said:


> http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog/ca...ples-Good-fans-understand-why-?urn=mma,198213
> 
> Maybe you should check out Patrick Barry's record...
> 
> *3 kickboxing TKO's by low kick and 3 MMA TKO's *by leg kicks including his win over Dan Evensen
> 
> Sure Shogun wasn't kicking that hard but it is still crippling the other fighter.
> 
> Are you telling me that if there were two fighters that boxed the whole fight and the one landed "cleaner" shots but could barely fight because his face was all swollen up and his body battered while the other guy although taking "cleaner" shots comes out unfazed and looking like he could fight again that the first guy should win?
> 
> In simple words, the fighter that gets his ass kicked loses. That wasn't Shogun in this fight, and *had Shogun known that he was going to get robbed I bet he could have finished Machida in the final round. Machida gave up, you could see it in his eyes and his movements.* He didn't go for the win and when they were waiting for the judges decision he was broken and knew he should have lost.
> 
> Maybe some people will stick by Cecil Peoples decisions but I will go by the thousands of fans and by the fighters themselves. They knew/know who actually won that fight and it isn't the one that is wearing the belt right now.


 
I stand corrected with your Patrick barry's record, not very commen though, you gotta admit.

As far as Shogun def finishing if he knew he was gonna get robbed, I agree, but that seems like an obvious thing, but he has no way of knowing he would get robbed or the decision would be that close, so its his responsibility to finish it, not listen to corner and slack....

Machida did not give up, he kept moving forward when he could barely walk, thats not giving up, he didnt look crisp or like his timing was on point, but after 4 rounds of punishment to the legs thats to be expected....

Good points though from you dude and thanks for the Patrick Barry referrence.....:thumbsup:


----------



## HitOrGetHit

vandalian said:


> Shut up, stupid!


NO YOU!!!


----------



## name goes here

Just re-watched with the sound off. This way, I change my mind, Machida won.
I think more than having Rogan shut up (fire him), it was not being able to hear the kicks, and being swayed by that. Mach did look more fucked up at the end, but I think most of that was incured in the last round alone. I don't know if the cut lip even came from a punch, rather than head clashing in the clinch.
Most of Shoguns kicks were to the legs, more to the body would have helped his case.


----------



## vandalian

HitOrGetHit said:


> NO YOU!!!



Blast! Foiled again!


----------



## cassara31

I disagree with this decision. I only watched this fight once and did not analyze in the slightest, but it seemed to me like Shogun was the one who dealt the most damage. Lyoto seemed like he was constantly grimacing and Shogun was getting the better of the exchanges. You can say Lyoto was landing the cleaner shots or whatever, but I thought Shogun was more damaging. The ENORMOUS welt on his stomach and the cuts on his face showed more prominently than Shogun by far from what I remember. 

Also, the "Octagon Control" that's talked about before every event as judging criteria. Sure it's Lyoto's style to sit back on his heels and that's how he's controlled every fight so far, Shogun obviously pressed him more than anyone else ever has. After the third round, Lyoto's reactionary style sort of wore off on me. I thought Shogun made Lyoto go where he wanted him to go most of the time, isn't that the definition of control?

I didn't look very far back into the thread to see what was discussed, but just my two or three cents.


----------



## steveo412

Keith Jardine also finished one of his first UFC fights TKO via leg kicks.

Of course leg kicks arent meant to get the TKO stoppage. They are used to damage the legs making the other fighter less mobile. Cecil sounds like an idiot though for saying that Shoguns strikes werent meant to finish the fight. There was no time in this fight that either of them were close to being finished, so how can he take credit away from Shoguns kicks when Machidas punches never were close to finishing the fight either.

He also says Machida had the more damaging strikes in the earlier rounds. Just wondering when and where did he damage Shogun more than he was damaged by the kicks? Nowhere. Then he says Lyoto made Shogun come after him and controlled where the fight took place in the octogon. Shogun was chasing down and moving in this whole fight to push the pace. Not because Machida was making him come at him he was backing up and sidestepping. Honestly giving Machida the advantage in Octagon control is probably the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Cecil just shut up, we have known for years your the worst MMA Judge in the business dont put your foot in your mouth more trying to justify your terrible judgeing.


----------



## Calminian

name goes here said:


> Just re-watched with the sound off. This way, I change my mind, Machida won.
> I think more than having Rogan shut up (fire him), it was not being able to hear the kicks, and being swayed by that. Mach did look more fucked up at the end, but I think most of that was incured in the last round alone. I don't know if the cut lip even came from a punch, rather than head clashing in the clinch.
> Most of Shoguns kicks were to the legs, more to the body would have helped his case.


It's amazing how that works. The more you mute Rogan, the more the judges look like that came to the right decision.


----------



## cassara31

steveo412 said:


> Cecil just shut up, we have known for years your the worst MMA ref in the business dont put your foot in your mouth more trying to justify your terrible judgeing.


Are you not counting Mazzagatti? He's terrible.


----------



## steveo412

cassara31 said:


> Are you not counting Mazzagatti? He's terrible.


sorry meant Judge not ref. I fixed it


----------



## osmium

It was an absurdly close fight and the champ should always retain when that happens just like Rampage should have been awarded the decision against Forrest. In a ten point must system tie goes to the champ since no one gives a 10-10. If you want the belt you need to either finish the champ or definitively win 3 rounds Shogun didn't do that he had maybe 1 round that couldn't have been legitimately ruled a tie or a loss for him.


----------



## JackAbraham34

even if cecil scored the fight right on the criteria and Machida won, then I think the judging in general is total bullshit. Nobody can watch that fight (forget the criteria - Octagon control etc.) and think Shogun did anything but win.


----------



## BobbyCooper

Cecil scored the fight the same way like Marcos Rosales did!
So i dont really understand the hate on Cecil Peoples.

Marcos Rosales (Machida 48-47):

1stRound: Machida 10-9
2ndRound: Machida 10-9
3rdRound: Machida 10-9
4thRound: Rua 10-9
5thRound: Rua 10-9

Cecil Peoples (Machida 48-47):

1stRound: Machida 10-9
2ndRound: Machida 10-9
3rdRound: Machida 10-9
4thRound: Rua 10-9
5thRound: Rua 10-9


----------



## HitOrGetHit

BobbyCooper said:


> Cecil scored the fight the same way like Marcos Rosales did!
> So i dont really understand the hate on Cecil Peoples.
> 
> Marcos Rosales (Machida 48-47):
> 
> 1stRound: Machida 10-9
> 2ndRound: Machida 10-9
> 3rdRound: Machida 10-9
> 4thRound: Rua 10-9
> 5thRound: Rua 10-9
> 
> Cecil Peoples (Machida 48-47):
> 
> 1stRound: Machida 10-9
> 2ndRound: Machida 10-9
> 3rdRound: Machida 10-9
> 4thRound: Rua 10-9
> 5thRound: Rua 10-9


because people are looking for someone to blame shogun losing on.


----------



## M.C

I watched the fight again, and saw Machida winning the first 3 rounds, and losing the last two.

I swear, everytime I watch that fight, I see Shogun winning a different round and Machida winning a different round. The fight is too damn close.


----------



## SimplyNate

Guys I just watched that fight in slow motion while upside and backwards. Also I changed the color to black and white for a new perspective. Still I think Shogun won!


----------



## name goes here

JackAbraham34 said:


> even if cecil scored the fight right on the criteria and Machida won, then I think the judging in general is total bullshit. Nobody can watch that fight (forget the criteria - Octagon control etc.) and think Shogun did anything but win.


That is the inherent limitation of a judging criteria. It's narrow and slightly irrelevant. The alternative is a wishy washy system like Pride had - constantly being accused of favoritism.


----------



## alizio

it's w/e really, its only a belt... the part that really peeves me is saying Machida displayed Octogan control.... how is running away from every exchange Octogan control?? If you are the one being forced to stop takedowns, its because the other guy is imposing his will on you, not vice versa, same with backpedaling, if your the one doing it, you are obv not in control of the space in the ring.... can a Machida fan plz explain to me how his style contains "octogan control" whatsoever?? or maybe i just dont know what the true meaning is?


----------



## ZeroPRIDE

Any one eles thinK Machida might go to the ground vs Shogun II?


----------



## Soojooko

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/machida-i-was-superior-20576?



> Tuesday, October 27, 2009
> by Marcelo Alonso ([email protected])
> 
> Following his controversial unanimous decision over Mauricio “Shogun” Rua at UFC 104, UFC light heavyweight champion Lyoto Machida discussed the fight via phone with Sherdog.com’s Marcelo Alonso.
> 
> “I thought it was a very even and tough fight,” Machida said. “I had the opportunity to see the fight again and I thought I won four rounds and Shogun took the last one. Some people say he won the fourth and fifth round, but for sure I won at least the first three rounds. The American commentators were pretty much biased. If you see the fight without audio, you will probably see a different fight.
> 
> “Shogun was a great opponent and had a nice strategy. He deserves all my respect as a fighter, but I was superior. I had three or four chances to finish the fight, and he never put me in danger. I didn’t get (dazed) at any moment of the fight, but I put him in danger three or four times. He kicked my legs a couple of times, but he wouldn’t knock me out with that.”
> 
> Machida guaranteed that his disappointed expression immediately after the fight did not stem from a belief that he had lost.
> 
> “My leg started to hurt in the fifth round, and I was very upset that I couldn’t knock him out as I had planned,” Machida said. “I had two chances where I felt him really (dazed), but I lost it and I get really upset when I leave the decision in the judges’ hands.”
> 
> After confirming that he totally agrees with a rematch, Machida also addressed UFC President Dana White’s statement that he thought Shogun was the winner.
> 
> “Anyone who has a mouth can talk. I respect his opinion and I’m ready to fight Shogun or any other challenger UFC decides, but I would like to say that this fight was not judged by myself, my father or Anderson Silva,” Machida said. “This fight was judged by professionals, so I’m pretty much comfortable with the result.”
> 
> After taking two weeks vacation in Hawaii with his family, Lyoto is planning to return to his training routine in Belém.
> 
> “It’s time to celebrate the win and relax from the hard training routine,” he said. “After that I will check what happened to my hand (it’s hurt), if it needs some surgery, then analyze my mistakes in this fight carefully with my family to restart my training routine. No matter who is my next opponent, I’ll give some rest to my mind and body and return 100 percent to the training to get ready for my next challenge. If it’s Shogun again, I’ll study his game and make a different strategy to please the fans with a better fight.”
> 
> 
> Marcelo Alonso/Sherdog.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun, Ulisses Pereira, Wanderlei Silva and Lyoto Machida in 2005,when Machida trained at Chute Boxe.


----------



## TraMaI

alizio said:


> it's w/e really, its only a belt... the part that really peeves me is saying Machida displayed Octogan control.... how is running away from every exchange Octogan control?? If you are the one being forced to stop takedowns, its because the other guy is imposing his will on you, not vice versa, same with backpedaling, if your the one doing it, you are obv not in control of the space in the ring.... can a Machida fan plz explain to me how his style contains "octogan control" whatsoever?? or maybe i just dont know what the true meaning is?


You can successfully control the octagon while counter punching by circling the direction you want to go, backing to your corner instead of his etc. If someone is chasing you, you can make him go anywhere you want. It's not as it Shogun was showing fantastic control either, Machida wasn't getting cornered or anything and he wasn't letting Shogun cut him off at all, hence why he could dodge most of his shots and defend the take downs. Control really goes to neither fighter in that fight IMO, agression obviously goes to Shogun, but agression alone won't win you fights. Most of the exchanges were dead even and Machida also negated many of those kicks with successful counters, but Shogun landed exponentially more strikes. So effective striking lands in the eye of the beholder honestly. Machida won the grappling part for the sake of just shrugging off any attempts at a take down Shogun made and brushing off the clich like it was nothing, while Machida landed a few good knees to the body with a clinch intact, meaning that Shogun couldn't shrug his off. Not to mention that when Lyoto did pin Rua against the fence, he kept him there, and while he didn't do much with it aside from catch his breath, it's still seen as effective grappling. Judging by that:

Shogun: Wins Agression hands down, both striking and octagon control could've went either way depending on the judges view of it.

Machida: Wins grappling hands down, with again, both striking and grappling being somewhat of a toss up.

The fight is much closer than those who are claiming "ROBBERY!" from mountain tops. I personally had it scored for Machida as well, and all three judges had it UNANIMOUSLY for Machida, with at least two of them scoring it identically, I'm unsure of the third.


----------



## name goes here

reedk said:


> mma fanatic
> http://www.hawaiiufc.com


Shut up


----------



## alizio

TraMaI said:


> You can successfully control the octagon while counter punching by circling the direction you want to go, backing to your corner instead of his etc. If someone is chasing you, you can make him go anywhere you want. It's not as it Shogun was showing fantastic control either, Machida wasn't getting cornered or anything and he wasn't letting Shogun cut him off at all, hence why he could dodge most of his shots and defend the take downs. Control really goes to neither fighter in that fight IMO, agression obviously goes to Shogun, but agression alone won't win you fights. Most of the exchanges were dead even and Machida also negated many of those kicks with successful counters, but Shogun landed exponentially more strikes. So effective striking lands in the eye of the beholder honestly. Machida won the grappling part for the sake of just shrugging off any attempts at a take down Shogun made and brushing off the clich like it was nothing, while Machida landed a few good knees to the body with a clinch intact, meaning that Shogun couldn't shrug his off. Not to mention that when Lyoto did pin Rua against the fence, he kept him there, and while he didn't do much with it aside from catch his breath, it's still seen as effective grappling. Judging by that:
> 
> Shogun: Wins Agression hands down, both striking and octagon control could've went either way depending on the judges view of it.
> 
> Machida: Wins grappling hands down, with again, both striking and grappling being somewhat of a toss up.
> 
> The fight is much closer than those who are claiming "ROBBERY!" from mountain tops. I personally had it scored for Machida as well, and all three judges had it UNANIMOUSLY for Machida, with at least two of them scoring it identically, I'm unsure of the third.


 sorry, but that explanation of octogan control doesnt make sense to me.... it's like me saying im on the run from the cops, but since they are chasing me, im in control..... no, if i was in control, i wouldnt be running, get it?? Its a fight, your supposed to fight, i dont see how trying to engage somebody in a fight is them controling you?? You are saying backpedaling is controlling the space in the octogan?? so hypothetically if i ran away from brock lesnar all fight, never got cornered, just ran, no strikes, i win because i controlled the octogan?? i seriously dont get it and i appreciate your attempt to explain it, but that doesnt seem logical to me one bit..... you arent FORCING him to go where you want, you are backing up and he wants to FIGHT so he trys to get you.... all the while landing more strikes in the process.... that kind of countering doesnt seem too logical either...


----------



## Soojooko

This image pretty much sums up the whole fight.



alizio said:


> sorry, but that explanation of octogan control doesnt make sense to me.... it's like me saying im on the run from the cops, but since they are chasing me, im in control..... no, if i was in control, i wouldnt be running, get it?? Its a fight, your supposed to fight, i dont see how trying to engage somebody in a fight is them controling you?? You are saying backpedaling is controlling the space in the octogan?? so hypothetically if i ran away from brock lesnar all fight, never got cornered, just ran, no strikes, i win because i controlled the octogan?? i seriously dont get it and i appreciate your attempt to explain it, but that doesnt seem logical to me one bit..... you arent FORCING him to go where you want, you are backing up and he wants to FIGHT so he trys to get you.... all the while landing more strikes in the process.... that kind of countering doesnt seem too logical either...


Shogun back peddled after every single attack. How is that any different. The fight was close god damn it! Not accepting that is the most unreasonable argument of all.


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## coldcall420

Soojooko said:


> This image pretty much sums up the whole fight.
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun back peddled after every single attack. How is that any different. The fight was close god damn it! Not accepting that is the most unreasonable argument of all.


 
Dont waste your time all your gonna do is get frustrated...it actually feels pretty good to just ignore.....:thumbsup:


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## Soojooko

coldcall420 said:


> Dont waste your time all your gonna do is get frustrated...it actually feels pretty good to just ignore.....:thumbsup:


Word.


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## Diokhan

Cecil Peoples said:


> Lyoto made Shogun come after him. He determined where the fight took place, which, in my opinion, constitutes as effective Octagon control.


Wtf? With that logic Starnes should have beaten Nate like 30-20 instead of losing 30-25 or whatever the average score from judges was.



alizio said:


> sorry, but that explanation of octogan control doesnt make sense to me.... it's like me saying im on the run from the cops, but since they are chasing me, im in control..... no, if i was in control, i wouldnt be running, get it?? Its a fight, your supposed to fight, i dont see how trying to engage somebody in a fight is them controling you?? You are saying backpedaling is controlling the space in the octogan?? so hypothetically if i ran away from brock lesnar all fight, never got cornered, just ran, no strikes, i win because i controlled the octogan?? i seriously dont get it and i appreciate your attempt to explain it, but that doesnt seem logical to me one bit..... you arent FORCING him to go where you want, you are backing up and he wants to FIGHT so he trys to get you.... all the while landing more strikes in the process.... that kind of countering doesnt seem too logical either...


Well said!
I was going to make a long rant about it too, thanks for saving my time by doing it before me, hehe.


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## dacypher

I am beginning to think that leg kicks just don't impressive the judges that much. Does anyone else notice a trend of fighters losing the decision even when they were out connecting 2 to 1 (2 leg kicks to every 1 of your opponent's punches to the face)? I am not a big Shogun fan, but honestly I had him winning that fight because of utter domination with the leg kicks in at least 3 of the 5 rounds. 

And even if Machida did actually win octagon control by not getting cut off by Shogun (which I don't really agree with), he would have lost on the "aggression" criteria, so that would be canceled out. Honestly, I don't think you can even count "not getting cut off or cornered" as octagon control. It just means your opponent was controlling you, just not 100%.


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## BobbyCooper

coldcall420 said:


> Dont waste your time all your gonna do is get frustrated...it actually feels pretty good to just ignore.....:thumbsup:


#2

It is really funny to see how many Machida haters are coming out now! They couldn't really say anything befor this fight happend, cause Lyoto dominated the whole 205 so easily. Now everybody saw, that he really is a human being and can get some trouble in a fight, they finally have something to hate on so we have to let them have some fun with this short moment^^


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## Soakked

dacypher said:


> I am beginning to think that leg kicks just don't impressive the judges that much. Does anyone else notice a trend of fighters losing the decision even when they were out connecting 2 to 1 (2 leg kicks to every 1 of your opponent's punches to the face)?


Well if that was the case then Forrest would have lost against Rampage. Shogun landed far more leg shots than Forrest did against his fight with Page, and Rampage knocked Forrest down and almost finished him. Machida never came close to finishing Shogun. Obviously people are going to disagree about how they view the decision. 

The problem I believe is what gets scored what (head strikes, aggression, slick defense, prevention, oct control etc..). If judges count head shots moreso than body shots then the decision can be viewed a different way. My problem is consistency. If you are judging by a certain criteria, then it needs to be judged that way all the time. My comparison to the Page/Forrest fight shows that it's not.


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## coldcall420

You guys realize the night of the fight the poll was completely different....the number for shogun has steadily risen and the number for Lyoto I believe is the same....

Why would you vote after the fight??? It was like 82% lyoto and like 18% Shogun.....


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## swpthleg

coldcall420 said:


> You guys realize the night of the fight the poll was completely different....the number for shogun has steadily risen and the number for Lyoto I believe is the same....
> 
> Why would you vote after the fight??? It was like 82% lyoto and like 18% Shogun.....


BC there is an epic keyboard warrior battle to be fought, CC.


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## Soakked

Regardless how I viewed the first fight, I think Machida takes it in the rematch. I never thought he was unbeatable, but I do believe that he is still the best LHW. I think he will come out differently.

But honestly it's a bit much for me to swallow that Machida won that fight :dunno:


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## coldcall420

swpthleg said:


> BC there is an epic keyboard warrior battle to be fought, CC.


Bring me my Katana....


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## swpthleg

coldcall420 said:


> Bring me my Katana....


It's my turn still. *slashes an S in the air*


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## Ansem

Lol classic case of Ryu vs Sagat last saturday im sure Machida is gonna be ready this time, possibly with a hadouken


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## slapshot

Davisty69 said:


> Are you saying that based upon Octagon control, a failed takedown is equivalent to a defended takedown? That part, out of everything Peoples said, is the clearest.
> 
> I try and take you to the ground, I fail because you defended it. You controlled me.


So one two or even three failed TD's = octagon control for a full five minute round? uum no. Its just one part of a bigger picture and you have to total up the round. There were moments in every round that he did not have octagon control (as there are for every fighter) he did however control the majority of every round. Also in every round Shogun was the aggressor, for the most part the two seem to go hand in hand.



> Octagon Control 1. The fighter who is dictating the pace, place and position of the fight. 2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control. 3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control. 4. The fighter on the ground who creates submission, mount or clean striking opportunities


Notice they are numbered in order of gravity.

I dont think anyone can truly argue that shogun was not the winner but just in case.



> VIII. JUDGES
> 
> A. No judge will have a financial interest in any fighter he judges.
> 
> B. No judge will be a manager/trainer of any fighter he judges.
> 
> C. In a bout goes to it's full time limit, the outcome will be decided by a majority decision of three, (3), MMAC judges.
> 
> D. A judge is accredited, sanctioned and selected based upon his character, experience, stature in the MMA world, knowledge of MMA systems and impartiality.
> 
> E. Judging Criteria 1. Judges are required to determine the winner of a bout that goes to it's full time limit based upon the following criteria: -Clean Strikes -Effective Grappling -Octagon Control -Effective Aggressiveness
> 
> F. Clean Strikes 1. The fighter who is landing both effective and efficient clean strikes. 2. There are two ways of measuring strikes: -the total number of clean strikes landed (more efficient)
> 
> -the total number of heavy strikes landed (more effective)
> 
> G. The heavier striker who lands with efficiency, deserves more credit from the Judges than total number landed. 1. If the striking power between the fighters was equal, then the total number landed would be used as the criteria. 2. The total number of strikes landed, should be of sufficient quantity favoring a fighter, to earn a winning round.
> 
> H. Strikes thrown from the top position of the guard, are generally heavier and more effective than those thrown from the back. 1. Thus a Judge shall recognize that effective strikes thrown from the top guard position are of "higher quality", than thrown from the bottom. 2. The Judge shall recognize that this is not always the case. However, the vast majority of fighters prefer the top guard position to strike from. This is a strong indication of positional dominance for striking.
> 
> I. Effective Grappling 1. The Judge shall recognize the value of both the clean takedown and active guard position. 2. The Judge shall recognize that a fighter who is able to cleanly takedown his opponent, is effectively grappling. 3. A Judge shall recognize that a fighter on his back in an active guard position, can effectively grapple, through execution of repeated threatening attempts at submission and reversal resulting in continuous defense from the top fighter. 4. A Judge shall recognize that a fighter who maneuvers from guard to mount is effectively grappling. 5. A Judge shall recognize that the guard position alone shall be scored neutral or even, if none of the preceding situations were met.(items 2-4) 6. A Judge shall recognize that if the fighters remain in guard the majority of a round with neither fighter having an edge in clean striking or effective grappling, (items 2-4), the fighter who scored the clean takedown deserves the round. 7. A clean reversal is equal to a clean takedown in effective grappling
> 
> J. Octagon Control 1. The fighter who is dictating the pace, place and position of the fight. 2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control. 3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control. 4. The fighter on the ground who creates submission, mount or clean striking opportunities
> 
> K. Effective Aggressiveness 1. This simply means who is moving forward and finding success.(scoring) 2. Throwing a strike moving backwards is not as effective as a strike thrown moving forward. 3. Throwing strikes and not landing is not effective aggressiveness. 4. Moving forward and getting struck is not effective aggressiveness. 5. Shooting takedowns and getting countered and fended off is not effective aggressiveness.
> 
> L. Criteria Evaluation 1. Each judge is to evaluate which fighter was most effective. Thus striking and grappling skills are top priority. 2. Evaluating the criteria requires the use of a sliding scale. Fights can remain standing or grounded. Judges shall recognize that it isn't how long the fighters are standing or grounded, as to the scoring the fighters achieve ,while in those positions. 3. If 90% of the round is grounded one fighter on top, then: -effective grappling is weighed first. -clean striking is weighed next. If clean strikes scored in the round, the Judge shall factor it in. Clean Striking can outweigh Effective Grappling while the fighters are grounded. -octagon control is next (pace, place & position)
> 
> The same rational holds true if 90% of the round were standing. Thus: -clean striking would be weighed first (fighter most effective) -clean grappling second (any takedowns or effective clinching) -octagon control which fighter maintained better position? Which fighter created the situations that led to effective strikes?
> 
> If a round was 50% standing and 50% on the ground, then: -clean striking and effective grappling are weighed more equally. -octagon control would be factored next
> 
> In all three hypothetical situations, effective aggressiveness is factored in last. It is the criteria of least importance. Since the definition calls for moving forward and scoring, it is imperative for the Judges to look at the scoring first.
> 
> Thus for all Judges scoring UFC fights, the prioritized order of evaluating criteria is: -clean strikes and effective grappling are weighed first. -octagon control -effective aggressiveness M. Domination Criteria
> 
> A Judge may determine that a fighter dominated his opponent in a round. This can lead to a two point or more difference on a Judge's scorecard.
> The definition of a dominating round is a fighter's ability to effectively strike, grapple and control his opponent.
> A Judge may determine a round was dominating if a fighter was adversely affected by one of the following: -knocked down from standing position by clean strike -by submission attempt -from a throw -from clean strikes either standing or grounded.
> N. Judge's Scorecard Procedures After each round: 1. each Judge will determine and record a score each round 2. a MMAC official will collect the scorecard after each round 3. the MMAC official will track and add each Judges score by round 4. If the fight goes the time limit, the MMAC official will add each Judge's scorecard and double check total 5. the fighter with the greater number of points wins the fight on each Judges scorecard 6. the fighter who won on the majority of the Judges Scorecards, wins the fight 7. the MMAC official will hand the decision to the PA announcer
> 
> O. Types of Judge's Decisions 1. If all three scorecards agree Unanimous 2. If two of three scorecards agree Split 3. Two scorecards agree and one draw Majority 4. two scorecards agree on draw Draw 5. all scorecards different Draw
> 
> IX SCORING SYSTEM
> 
> A. The MMAC and UFC have adopted a 10 point must system. The Judge will use the criteria to determine a winner each round. The three step procedure per round is as follows: -determine winner of round (can be draw) -determine if winner dominated round
> 
> -fouls then factored in (subtract one point per foul from fighter)
> 
> B. Draws are again acceptable in MMAC events
> 
> C. Point Totals 1. two fighters who draw are given a score of 10-10 2. the fighter who wins a round is given a score of 10-9 3.The fighter who dominates a round is given a score of 10-8 (a score of 10-7 is possible for a dominant round) 4.For each foul a fighter commits, a point is subtracted. This deduction can change a winning round to a draw. 9-9
> 
> more useful facts can be found here...
> 
> http://boxing.nv.gov/index.htm


http://community.ufc.com/blog/member/HAD0K3N/all/know_your_mmascoring

If you score the striking correctly there can be no debate over who should have won, clearly shogun scored more strikes that they were leg kicks is irrelevant.
http://fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Shogun.html

Some people say how close every round was well watching the fight multiple times as I have and using this scoring system I still dont see how every round was close, to me the third round was the closest. Anyway you slice it at the least Shogun should have won three rounds.


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## Wookie

Damn that was a complicated read. Good info though hopefully that will clear up a lot of this B.S.


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## Chileandude

Holy crap this topic must have more posts than i do


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## Shoegazer

Very late here, I realize...

Just watched this fight tonight, due to being out of the country. I knew the controversy existed, I knew Rogan was being blamed for favoritism from talking to friends etc., so I watched the fight with no sound on a small, grainy computer feed with 5 shots of vodka (for enhaced clarity and concentration). 

Rd 1 = very close, I gave it to Machida.

Rd 2 = very close, I called it a draw. If I wasn't allowed to call it a draw, I guess I'd probably give it to Rua. 

Rd 3 = Machida

Rd 4 = Rua

Rd 5 = Rua

Granted, I don't consider myself an expert of MMA. I AM an avid fan. I _did_ expect Machida would win handily when the fight was announced. I don't think either was beaten soundly or convincingly. 

I don't feel outrage at the decision the way I did with Hamill Vs. Bisping, when I screamed at the tv. Coincidentally, I DID feel that particular fight was much closer when I watched with the sound off a second and third time (Hamill still won, though). It opened my eyes to the very real phenomenon of interpreting action through commentator bias, which is why I watched the Machida vs. Rua fight with sound off first.

I guess I accept the arguments from many here that Rua may have clearly outscored Machida when the video is analyzed very closely and repetitively, but on the first watch, Rua certainly did not do enough to make me feel he nor Machida outright won. :shame02:


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## jmacjer




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## cabby

jmacjer said:


>


Yeah it sucks Shogun didn't do any damage.............


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## Calminian

jmacjer said:


>


I can't believe this thread is not dead.

But hey, I thought Machida didn't land a single punch. :confused02:

And BTW, the bottom left one got no reaction by Rogan at all, because Shogun landed the leg kick.


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## Davisty69

I would say his point is against the people that argue that Machida didn't do much damage. Not that Machida did all the damage and shogun did none.


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## Soojooko

Seeing as the topic is still running and I'm in the mood to add...











Heres Lyoto finding his range for that counter counter kick. I believe he throws the initial punch only to trigger shoguns counter kick so he can attack the knee on the standing leg with a kick of his own. These types of kick were all missed by Rogan. ( and myself on first 2 watches. )










Heres Lyoto doing the above with more success. This time he connects with the initial punch, Shogun kicks and again Lyoto lands a sharp kick to the standing leg.










An even better example. Lyoto eats that body kick... Rogan has an orgasm, and completely misses the finishing kick to the inside of Shoguns standing knee.

I only bring up these particular clips because they show the work of a true martial artist. Name me one other fighter with the reactions and technique to land those kicks to the knee a millisecond after eating a body kick? In real time those kicks are so fast and sharp that they are very easily missed. Seeing as everybody only really talked about Lyotos counter punches and not the kicks, I suspect most of us missed them. I don't like that this stuff gets brushed over and suddenly everybody thinks Lyoto is somehow not the excellent martial artist many of us thought he was. He fu*king is! It's just that Shogun is pretty f*cking good also! Like it or not, rightly or wrongly, this type of thing impresses judges no end. It should impress all of us if we really are true MMA fans regardless of allegiances. Rogan not commenting on any of this juicy stuff did not help.










I only include this clip because I want to make a point that Rogan only says, "... again with that kick." and says not a thing about Lyotos hard right to Shoguns head.

*IT. WAS. A. VERY. CLOSE. FIGHT.*


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## Freelancer

Holy long thread Batman! I wasn't on the forum for a few weeks and this thread is still going!


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## T.Bone

Why do people have to watch it with the sound off? I was watching it live and could clearly see that Rogan was kissing Rua's balls. I was backing Machida heavily so was a little pissed at the level of Joe's bias. 

Machida was definately countering and landing but it wasn't enough, Shogun was the aggresor and his strikes were more effective. Machida did stuff pretty much every take down but this usually resulted in him against the cage eating knees. 

It *was* a close fight but Shogun definately did enough to get the win IMO.


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## name goes here

Makes me think of Akiyama v Belcher. Akiyama landed more, but Belcher hit a lot harder, and being bigger suffered less from the damage he took. But still the win went to Akiyama for landing more, even though Belcher was in better condition at the end. Damage in itself is not a determining criteria, effective striking is - determined by counting hits landed - See the above clips


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## coldcall420

Soojooko said:


> Seeing as the topic is still running and I'm in the mood to add...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heres Lyoto finding his range for that counter counter kick. I believe he throws the initial punch only to trigger shoguns counter kick so he can attack the knee on the standing leg with a kick of his own. These types of kick were all missed by Rogan. ( and myself on first 2 watches. )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heres Lyoto doing the above with more success. This time he connects with the initial punch, Shogun kicks and again Lyoto lands a sharp kick to the standing leg.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An even better example. Lyoto eats that body kick...* Rogan has an orgasm, and completely misses the finishing kick to the inside of Shoguns standing knee.*
> 
> I only bring up these particular clips because they show the work of a true martial artist. Name me one other fighter with the reactions and technique to land those kicks to the knee a millisecond after eating a body kick? In real time those kicks are so fast and sharp that they are very easily missed. Seeing as everybody only really talked about Lyotos counter punches and not the kicks, I suspect most of us missed them. I don't like that this stuff gets brushed over and suddenly everybody thinks Lyoto is somehow not the excellent martial artist many of us thought he was. He fu*king is! It's just that Shogun is pretty f*cking good also! Like it or not, rightly or wrongly, this type of thing impresses judges no end. It should impress all of us if we really are true MMA fans regardless of allegiances. Rogan not commenting on any of this juicy stuff did not help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I only include this clip because I want to make a point that Rogan only says, "... again with that kick." and says not a thing about Lyotos hard right to Shoguns head.
> 
> *IT. WAS. A. VERY. CLOSE. FIGHT.*


 
The bold is going in my sig....Repped for tight work and great points....


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