# Bas Rutten Rips the Shit Out of Overeem



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

From http://www.paullazenby.com/ 

No video, but it's a good read.




> PL: Strikeforce, K-1 and Dream champion (and your fellow countryman) Alistair Overeem will be battling Lesnar on December 30th with a UFC world title shot at stake. There has been a lot going on with Overeem lately, including the shocking news that Alistair was leaving the Golden Glory team and firing his managers. Have you discussed any of this with him, maybe found out his reasons for doing it?
> 
> BR: Oh no, you didn't go there! (laughs) I thought that if nobody asks, I won't say anything, but now that you ask me I have to! It's been bothering me a lot! OK, here I go.
> 
> ...


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Wow quite the read. Love me some Bas though, and as a non-Overeem nuthugger it does seem like his head is getting too big. He was not impressive against Werdum, yet people act like hes gonna go and beat down JDS lol. 

I believe he will beat Brock, but not easily, nor will he ever be top 3 in the UFC.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Bas needs to mind his own goddamn business...that diatribe was hard to read. Embarrassing.

It's quite obvious that with Alistair's new position in MMA, he's simply outgrown Golden Glory and has no use for it whatsoever. They are doing nothing but leeching off of Alistair at this point and he was really the whole team at that point...like a Fedor-M-1 type of deal they had going.

Yeah, Alistar wanted to readjust his trainer's wages because he was having a tremendous change in income. DUH.

He's literally going to be making millions of dollars....you think he's going to give away possibly 150k per fight to a TRAINER? No. That's ridiculous. 

GG has ripped him off and most importantly stole money from him(his UFC signing bonus)...Bas needs to shut the **** up and stay out of shit that has nothing to do with him.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

I feel Lesnar will just take him down and gorilla smash him and expose him, I feel he is probably number 5 at HW in the UFC.

1.JDS
2.Cain
3.Lesnar
4.Mir
5.Overeem


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

rygu said:


> Wow quite the read. Love me some Bas though, and as a non-Overeem nuthugger it does seem like his head is getting too big. He was not impressive against Werdum, yet people act like hes gonna go and beat down JDS lol.
> 
> I believe he will beat Brock, but not easily, nor will he ever be top 3 in the UFC.


lol at this post.....he beats Brock but won't be top 3.....then he's behind who? Frank Mir? :confused03:



UFC_OWNS said:


> I feel Lesnar will just take him down and gorilla smash him and expose him, I feel he is probably number 5 at HW in the UFC.
> 
> 1.JDS
> 2.Cain
> ...


Overeem would absolutely style on Frank Mir.


As far as Brock "exposing" anyone, hes not exposing anyone with nearly 50 fights on his record in a decade of combat. The only one that's being exposed is if Brock will do a pirouette in the octagon or not.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> lol at this post.....he beats Brock but won't be top 3.....then he's behind who? Frank Mir? :confused03:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think Mir would win, I also think Carwin would knock his ass out. I bet Struve even gives him a close fight. You're overrating this dude a little.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

rygu said:


> I think Mir would win, I also think Carwin would knock his ass out. I bet Struve even gives him a close fight. You're overrating this dude a little.


lmao...


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

I would put it like this for when SF hws come over

1.JDS
2.Cain
3.Barnett
4.Cormier
5.Lesnar
6.Mir
7.Overeem
8.Carwin
9.Griggs/Del Rosario
10.Silva


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> lmao...


Yeah he sure looked world-class against Werdum. JDS better watch out for the elite striking he showed that fight, or his title is in trouble.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Well that's probably because Werdum fell to his back every 5 seconds.

Unbelievably, a bunch of other strikers(including K1 Kickboxing legends) fought Overeem and didn't butt scoot for 90 percent of the fight and got knocked out. JDS should probably watch out for that.

Overeem doesn't have anything to watch out for, afterall yeah JDS sure looked world class against Mamute Ferreira. Overeem better watch out for the elite striking he showed in that fight, or he's in trouble.


See? I can post nonsense too!


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## dlxrevolution (Jul 16, 2009)

That was quite a story by Bas, who I respect as a fighter and a person. But it still doesn't change my opinion that Overeem will probably beat Lesner.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> Well that's probably because Werdum fell to his back every 5 seconds.
> 
> Unbelievably, a bunch of other strikers(including K1 Kickboxing legends) fought Overeem and didn't butt scoot for 90 percent of the fight and got knocked out. JDS should probably watch out for that.
> 
> ...


Comparing a fight 4 years ago to a fight 5 months ago? Word. When's the last time Overeem finished a striker in MMA with strikes?


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

It should be interesting the next time Overeem is on inside MMA.

I wonder if he'll reconsider things when he goes 0-3 in the UFC.

Top 3? I don't think he could beat Kongo or Meathead. He's too slow.










Thank goodness we have posters who can set things straight when Bas doesn't know what he's talking about regarding fighters and trainers.:laugh:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

the last striker overeem beat in MMA was kharitonov in 2006 at hw before kharitonov knew how to box good.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

How many times have we heard this before in the recording industry, film, and sports especially in boxing. 

Perhaps there's more than meets the eye here. I think the UFC pulled some strings and got into his (Overeem) ear. This all happened right after all the GG fighters were pretty much axed from SF. 

Anybody have articles from the GG camp.


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

The other fighters who left Golden Glory when they made it into the UFC were:

1. Heath Herring
2. Gilbert Yvel

Wouldn't be surprised if Overeem's run in the UFC goes similar to theirs.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

I don't see anything wrong with what Alistair did. He's probably making ten times the money now that he's with the UFC so it's only natural he wants to re-negotiate percentages. I sure as hell wouldn't want my manager and trainer to have 30% of every million I earn. Now if I was making considerably less, let's say 200k, 30% sounds fine since the real money I make comes from sponsors (unless that money goes to them too). Come to think of it, 30% is still 60k. And one third of that goes to my trainer, that is 20k. Now let's say I'm making a million. So they get 300k and the trainer gets one third of that, 100k, every time I fight. 

You'd have to be very stupid or very out of options to sign this contract.


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## Wookie (Jul 20, 2008)

I don't see Overeem getting opponents that match well with him stylistically. I really see him getting torn up pretty bad in the UFC but who knows?


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Overeem making millions and millions of dollars???

LMFAO

Who the hell do you guys think he is??

You guys know what the UFC pays and you still make dumb comments like that. Its hilarious.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> I would put it like this for when SF hws come over
> 
> 1.JDS
> 2.Cain
> ...


QFT

Though to be real it's going to be

1. JDS
2. Winner of Barnett/Cormier
3. Cain
4. Winner of Lesnar/Overeem
5. Barnett if he loses, Mir if he wins
6. Mir or Lesnar if he loses
7. Cormier if he loses Carwin if not
8. Carwin or Overeem if he loses
9. Overeem or by default Antonio Silva
10. Mike Russow



SideWays222 said:


> Overeem making millions and millions of dollars???
> 
> LMFAO
> 
> ...


Well the UFC likely signed him to somewhere in the 250,000 - 400,000 range, he's going to get a PPV cut and a huge sponsorship deal so I expect he'll bring in at-least 2 million from this fight win or lose, if Brock continues to draw a million PPV buys without the title it will be more than that.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

Top 5 currently in the UFC for me is:

1. JDS
2. Cain
3. Lesnar
4. Carwin
5. Overeem

For me, Overeem loses to Brock, and would get kncked out off Carwin. Even though Carwin has a questionable gas tank, so does Reem and he has shown that he isnt the best at taking a punch.

Brock Wrestles him and grinds him down on the floor and wins a UD or by late stoppage.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Bas can put whatever sob story he wants on it but the fact remains that 35% or even 30% is HIGHWAY ROBBERY for "managing" someone. They do almost no real work, most of that is the training camp which is getting less than a third of the money and even that is far too much for training costs when you're earning 100K+.

Still, Brock will probably smash him and then these douches will come out with their I told you sos.


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## Atras (Sep 12, 2011)

Liddellianenko said:


> Bas can put whatever sob story he wants on it but the fact remains that 35% or even 30% is HIGHWAY ROBBERY for "managing" someone. They do almost no real work, most of that is the training camp which is getting less than a third of the money and even that is far too much for training costs when you're earning 100K+.





Hammerlock2.0 said:


> I sure as hell wouldn't want my manager and trainer to have 30% of every million I earn.


The 30% is not only management fees according to Mr Rutten, but also agent and lawyer fees, and probably some other fees, like gym and trainer fees.

It is a sad commentary on society, greed and loyalty when people are still defending Mr Overeem after reading that interview - assuming it's accurate of course.


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## astrallite (Mar 14, 2010)

And this is why Tiger Wood's caddy is one of the richest men in the world.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Atras said:


> The 30% is not only management fees according to Mr Rutten, but also agent and lawyer fees, and probably some other fees, like gym and trainer fees.
> 
> It is a sad commentary on society, greed and loyalty when people are still defending Mr Overeem after reading that interview - assuming it's accurate of course.


This is reality, not some fairy tale. In reality 30% is too much for management, agents, lawyers and trainers. Lawyers and trainers don't get a percentage in the first place, they charge fixed fees and get paid by the hour like everyone else. It's absurd for a trainer to get 10% of the fighter's purse.

It's not like Overeem is the only fighter having problems with Golden Glory. Saki left Golden Glory the same day. Overeem, Aerts, Le Banner and Saki to this day have not even been paid for their recent K-1 fights.


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## pipe (Jun 15, 2008)

John8204 said:


> QFT
> 
> Though to be real it's going to be
> 
> ...



How can you have Mike Russow on this list, id struggle to put him on a top 20. He would be behind Roy Nelson, Kongo, meat head, Nog, Schaub and probably Travis Browne. He's only really beat Duffee (after getting beat round the octagon for 3 rounds) and Madson (via cut stoppage I think)

My list at the moment:

1. Rob Emerson
2. JDS
3. Cain
4. Brock
5. Overeem
6. Barnett
7. Carwin
8. Cormier
9. Mir
10 Nelson

then you got your Khartirovs, Silva's, Kongo's etc


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

pipe said:


> How can you have Mike Russow on this list, id struggle to put him on a top 20. He would be behind Roy Nelson, Kongo, meat head, Nog, Schaub and probably Travis Browne. He's only really beat Duffee (after getting beat round the octagon for 3 rounds) and Madson (via cut stoppage I think)
> 
> My list at the moment:
> 
> ...


1. Kharitorov hasn't been and likely won't be signed

2. I have Silva ahead of Russow at 9

3. Roy Nelson is 3-4 in his last seven, Nog is 2-2, Schaub just got KO'd Mitrione and Kongo just gave a fight that proves that neither deserves to be in the top ten.

4. By the time Strikeforce folds itself into the UFC Russow will have won 11 or 12 fights in a row and at 16-1 should get a top fight.

5. I can see giving Travis Browne the 10th spot but I think he's going to lose his next fight.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Management and agencies differ from one another, but 10% would be huge. Thirty percent is unheard of unless of course you have the initials D.K. or B.A. 

Either way they should have worked out a compromise.


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## Hennessy (Feb 28, 2011)

Atras said:


> The 30% is not only management fees according to Mr Rutten, but also agent and lawyer fees, and probably some other fees, like gym and trainer fees.
> 
> It is a sad commentary on society, greed and loyalty when people are still defending Mr Overeem after reading that interview - assuming it's accurate of course.




Amen on that!


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Atras said:


> The 30% is not only management fees according to Mr Rutten, but also agent and lawyer fees, and probably some other fees, like gym and trainer fees.
> 
> It is a sad commentary on society, greed and loyalty when people are still defending Mr Overeem after reading that interview - assuming it's accurate of course.


No read carefully, Bas is saying that in his OWN case he has to spend that kind of money on lawyers, publicity etc., not that golden glory actually spent that money on legal fees etc. for Overeem. 

This is a complete diversion and not relevant to the situation at all, all that matters is what GG did for Overeem, not whatever dog and pony show Bas has going on in his own life and point in his career (which are very different from Overeem).

In all probability, Overeem is not getting jack from his management that his talent and rise wouldn't have gotten him anyway. He certainly hasn't been involved in any legal battles etc. that would account for 35% of his income going to legal fees etc. Actually no they're even worse than him managing himself because they couldn't even get him paid for all his K1 fights. They're leeching money for doing nothing, it's not about Overeem's greed, they're the greedy ones. 

Do his trainers deserve some credit for his improvement in fighting? Maybe. His management? Those are completely separate. What exactly did they do that any other top level fighter isn't getting on his own anyway? 

I mean let me get what you're saying ... a guy should give 35% of his hard work to his "management" (i.e. people who do nothing), another 30-40% of the remaining in direct income taxes to the government (i.e. people who also do nothing), the remaining money is taxed to shit ON TOP of all this in the form of sales taxes, VAT etc. for everything he buys, pays for his own (mandatory in Europe) health insurance etc., and he only gets to keep the handful of percents that's left from all his hard work, and HE'S the greedy one? Not all those parasites living off his hard work?


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Nonsensical rambling in defense of thieves.


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## Hennessy (Feb 28, 2011)

Man the thing is simple. You agreed to pay 30% to your trainer, managers, your camp basically.

Everyone agrees INCL Reem.

Then you start to be more successfull and you want to pay 1.5%?
That is simply disrespectful to the very people that helped you getting where you are.

I am not saying that a new contract cannot be issued and that 30% is a lot when you make a mill.

Its basically the same thing when it comes to taxes.
In Germany you pay quite some taxes alright? So a lot of succesful people like the formula 1 driver Micheal Schuhmacher piss off to Switzerland once they do the big bucks because they are not willing to pay taxes for the very country they owe everything to.
They still play the national anthem when they win which in my book is a joke.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

John8204 said:


> QFT
> 
> Though to be real it's going to be
> 
> ...


Overeem isnt a well known name and i seriously doubt he is getting a PPV %. Brock Lesnar is going to get a percentage but i doubt Overeem is. Its also very likely that his disclosed purse is something like 100k to show and 100k to win. He might get some under the table money but thats not anything we can logically discuss. Overeem isnt making the money you guys are talking about just yet. UFC wont risk paying him millions and millions for him to come in and lose. He has to prove himself in order to earn that.

And based on what we know of the payouts, that is alot more likely then these millions and millions figures you guys are throwing out. It makes me laugh that you guys think a relative nobody in the mainstream MMA world is going to get that much.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

SideWays222 said:


> Overeem isnt a well known name and i seriously doubt he is getting a PPV %. Brock Lesnar is going to get a percentage but i doubt Overeem is. Its also very likely that his disclosed purse is something like 100k to show and 100k to win. He might get some under the table money but thats not anything we can logically discuss. Overeem isnt making the money you guys are talking about just yet. UFC wont risk paying him millions and millions for him to come in and lose. He has to prove himself in order to earn that.
> 
> And based on what we know of the payouts, that is alot more likely then these millions and millions figures you guys are throwing out. It makes me laugh that you guys think a relative nobody in the mainstream MMA world is going to get that much.


Your logic fails as you miss the biggest point. The UFC isn't paying fighters what the sponsers are paying fighters. GSP is getting between 4 and 5 million per fight.

http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/96769-gsp-says-he-makes-4-5-million-every-time-he-fights.html

His disclosed income from the UFC is less than a million, his sponsorship money is where he gets most of his income. The economic's we've seen from fighters is that sponsorship money is at the very least 2 times what the UFC guarantee's, for GSP it's 5 times. Overeem is going to be in the main event for a PPV that will do more business than GSP. 

And before you say well that's GSP, the UFC was willing to pay Fedor 5 million dollars to show. SO Overeem is getting less but how much? If they give him 40% of the 5 million they were going to give Fedor that's 2 million dollars.


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## ranja (Apr 12, 2010)

Atras said:


> The 30% is not only management fees according to Mr Rutten, but also agent and lawyer fees, and probably some other fees, like gym and trainer fees.
> 
> It is a sad commentary on society, greed and loyalty when people are still defending Mr Overeem after reading that interview - assuming it's accurate of course.


Well said, completely agree with your comments.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

John8204 said:


> Your logic fails as you miss the biggest point. The UFC isn't paying fighters what the sponsers are paying fighters. GSP is getting between 4 and 5 million per fight.
> 
> http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/96769-gsp-says-he-makes-4-5-million-every-time-he-fights.html
> 
> ...


I dont care about sponsors right now. We are talking about what the UFC is going to give him and if you think it is 2 million then you are....

ahh nvm. There isnt a point to this. You are just going to keep throwing out numbers you have nothing to back up with.

So you can say w/e u want. Well see what his disclosed payout is and then we'll go from there. I say its not more then 100k to show 100k to win. And Overeem isnt getting a PPV %. Lol. Randy Couture/Chuck/GSP/Brock those are the type of fighters that get that. Not Overeem.

and btw
UFC isnt going to give Overeem 40% of what they offered Fedor lol. Also the whole 5 million dollar business. Has that ever been confirmed by Dana White??? I remember an article stating that BUT i also remember Dana saying the offer was good but not that good. Though il admit i dont remember the exact conversation so i could be wrong. But still... if you have a video of Dana saying he offered Fedor 5mil then id like to watch it. (Educational purposes).


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## Big_Charm (Jan 7, 2011)

rygu said:


> I think Mir would win, I also think Carwin would knock his ass out. I bet Struve even gives him a close fight. You're overrating this dude a little.


I doubt Mir would win and mentioning that sad excuse of a fighter [Struve] in the same sentence with Overeem is really, really sad.

To ROFCopters point, maybe Bas shouldn't have said anything...but I do know he really cares for Alistair and is a good friend. Bas is highly respected in the MMA community and rarely goes over peoples heads to make them look bad.

This tells me Alistair POSSIBLY is letting the big $$ cloud his judgment.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

SideWays222 said:


> I dont care about sponsors right now. We are talking about what the UFC is going to give him and if you think it is 2 million then you are....
> 
> ahh nvm. There isnt a point to this. You are just going to keep throwing out numbers you have nothing to back up with.
> 
> ...


You've got it twisted, you are talking about the downside of contracts and using that as proof. At worst with the guys fighting on the prelims the downside of the contract is 30-40% of what they take home. Where the money is coming from is very important, the UFC is not the end all be all of the revenue stream...and this is the issue. Overeem doesn't want to give hundreds of thousands of dollars to Golden Glory.

In the last month we've just Dana talk about how 20 fighters are multi-millionaires and 40 millionaires.

Forrest Griffin talked about how he'll never have to work for the rest of his life thanks to the UFC.

GSP just gave us an exact estimate to how much he makes per fight.

We found out that Dana is claiming Diaz who got 200,000 k for his fight with Penn was going to make millions with his fight with GSP.

Dana hasn't given us exact data on contracts since the Dan Henderson issue 3 years ago.

BTW you are the person who is arguing against anecdotal facts you need to bring something better than what you think is going to happen with Overeem to convince us.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

30% seems pretty darn fair to the people who trained, promoted, and defended you so you could focus on fighting. If you aren't making money, then they aren't making money. If you make lots, their investments paid off. The surplus cash from the over-achievers helps offset the cost of investment in training and promoting up-and-coming fighters until they can generate a profit as well. 

You don't piss on your own roots; I'll be cheering for Lesnar even though I don't think he takes the fight.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> Well that's probably because Werdum fell to his back every 5 seconds.
> 
> Unbelievably, a bunch of other strikers(including K1 Kickboxing legends) fought Overeem and didn't butt scoot for 90 percent of the fight and got knocked out. JDS should probably watch out for that.
> 
> ...


Go re-watch the fight. Werdum outstruck the big goofball. Werdum pulled him into HIS guard and Overeem did NOTHING from top position. Yet he was awarded the fight. Werdum won that fight quite easily in my opinion.

Overeem is a piece of shit. It is funny when people forget where they come from. When you are an average fighter and your team is working with you every day driving a '91 Ford to work, some people don't realize what they are getting. Then they make it a bit and throw any and all friendships aside. Happens all the time in the world...but it is quite sad.


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## Freakshow (Aug 10, 2011)

The way I see things, it's his money, and his career. If all the best trainers etc. get paid a certain percentage, and he doesn't want to pay that percentage, he'll get a less talented group. I have no idea if 30% is an industry standard or not, but if he doesn't want to pay that much, he should be free to go elsewhere. However he needs to remember that you usually get what you pay for, and not much else.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

He is free to do what he wants. But he seems to have been pretty disrespectful in the process. Pretty good timing too. makes it to the UFC with more money and bails on them.

Who was there when he was a bum getting knocked out left and right? Golden Gloves was.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

karma's a bitch, I don't condemn or approve. If he really did this just out of pure greed his day will come, if he did it to expand his training options then whatever.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Big_Charm said:


> I doubt Mir would win and mentioning that sad excuse of a fighter [Struve] in the same sentence with Overeem is really, really sad.


Cool story bro, you haven't convinced me though. Like I said... name the LAST striker Overeem defeated in MMA by strikes? 

Ready.....GO!


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Liddellianenko said:


> I mean let me get what you're saying ... a guy should give 35% of his hard work to his "management" (i.e. people who do nothing), another 30-40% of the remaining in direct income taxes to the government (i.e. people who also do nothing), the remaining money is taxed to shit ON TOP of all this in the form of sales taxes, VAT etc. for everything he buys, pays for his own (mandatory in Europe) health insurance etc., and he only gets to keep the handful of percents that's left from all his hard work, and HE'S the greedy one? Not all those parasites living off his hard work?


Unless his accountants are retards, he's not giving away that much money. Management fees, training costs, and anything relating to his work including travel & PR expenses are all tax deductible, he's probably closer to a 10% tax rate than 30%. Health insurance in Europe comes out of the general income taxes, it's not like in the US where you get raped for $3k a month.

Overall he's probably giving up around 40-50% of his income to various parties, which is comparable to a doctor, businessman, or other professional making his salary.


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## music5x5 (Jun 9, 2010)

Fieos said:


> 30% seems pretty darn fair to the people who trained, promoted, and defended you so you could focus on fighting. If you aren't making money, then they aren't making money. If you make lots, their investments paid off.


Management is not an investment company though. They were paid after each fight for their services. I'm sure they didn't invest millions in him, hoping that he would make it to the UFC and they would be able to recoup the millions. Financially investing in a fighter is obviously stupid because one serious injury can end the fighter's career.

The trainers taught Overeem a lot and in return he put them on the map by winning. Now they are more in demand plus can command a higher price/rate from other fighters. 

Bas made a big deal of the management company sticking with Overeem when he was losing. The truth is, they were most likely still able to make money off Overeem during his losing streak. Overall, Golden Glory probably made more money off Overeem than the other fighters combined!

Overeem is the one risking everything in the ring. If he was paying 30% of his 100k purse in the past, it only makes sense to rethink paying 30% of 2 million. 

He has to save his money for the days when he can no longer fight. That could be a few years from now or tomorrow. The management company can definitely continue managing/training other fighters for many more years in the future

_I dare someone to disagree with my post!_


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

music5x5 said:


> Bas made a big deal of the management company sticking with Overeem when he was losing. The truth is, they were most likely still able to make money off Overeem during his losing streak. Overall, Golden Glory probably made more money off Overeem than the other fighters combined!
> _I dare someone to disagree with my post!_


Not when he's saying Golden Gloves MADE promotions let Overeem fight in exchange for guys like Schilt. 

Spin it the other way around and if he never had Golden Gloves he might of been some guy on the street, never making it to this age of MMA where the money is good. 

Without them he might have never seen a big pay day in his life. Then he turns around and compares them to a cleaning lady. Fat chance.

People really don't understand the work trainers put into fighters. Fighters are in combat...but trainers work harder than fighters while living a lot less lavish lifestyle. They are in the gym 7 days a week 365 days a year helping anyone from Joe Shmoe down the street to the big names like Overeem. They put the time and effort to teach guys a craft that allows them to make the money they make.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

aerius said:


> Unless his accountants are retards, he's not giving away that much money. Management fees, training costs, and anything relating to his work including travel & PR expenses are all tax deductible, he's probably closer to a 10% tax rate than 30%. Health insurance in Europe comes out of the general income taxes, it's not like in the US where you get raped for $3k a month.
> 
> Overall he's probably giving up around 40-50% of his income to various parties, which is comparable to a doctor, businessman, or other professional making his salary.


Um, all of those facts are dead wrong. Do you have any idea how taxation even works? 10%??? Do you realize the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM deductible he can get is per year is 15,000 Euros?

http://www.expatax.nl/taxtips.htm

Even rocket scientist accountants can't bring him into the 10% bracket.

First of all here are the tax rates in the Netherlands:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_Netherlands

So anything over 54,000 Euros is taxed at a whopping 52%!

Now lets assume Overeem gets a modest fight check of $125000 or so per UFC fight (which is a VERY conservative estimate, he's probably getting 4 times that much). @2 fights a year, that's $250000 a year or ~185000 Euros a year. Now lets give the whopping 35% to Golden Glory, that leaves him with 120000 Euros. Also, this covers ALL his management, training and PR costs, he can't claim more than this because he's not paying more to GG. Remember, all claims are cross-referenced, if he claims some expense paying some guy, then it counts as income for the other guy and he can't just make shit up without the other guy having to pay taxes on it.

Now of that 120000, lets say he claims the full 15000 in deductible. That leaves his taxable income at 105000 Euros. 
At the current slab, that's 11071 Euros (sum of cumulative slabs for income up to 54000 euros) + 51% of the remainder = 37400 Euros total income tax. That's about 35% like I had said earlier.

So after GG and tax, that leaves him with 67600 Euros. Now contrary to what you said, the insurance in Netherlands is not free. Only old age and mental illness etc. is covered by the govt., the rest is paid 50% by employers and 50% by the individual. So that will still set him back a few thousand Euros down to about 64000 Euros total in his hand. 

Pushing on that 64000 Euros is all the sales tax and inflation I mentioned. Sure, it's still more than what most of us make, but greedy it is not. Especially considering it is less than 35% of what he actually earned.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

What about sponsorship money?^


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## Atras (Sep 12, 2011)

Liddellianenko said:


> Um, all of those facts are dead wrong. Do you have any idea how taxation even works? 10%??? Do you realize the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM deductible he can get is per year is 15,000 Euros?
> ...


While all your examples are correct on the surface, there's much more to it than that. The reason payments were made to GG rather than directly to the fighters was probably due to taxation in part. Other part being that if Mr Overeem paid managers, agents, trainers etc. out of his pocket, he'd have to be the one doing the paperwork, ie. he'd be an employer. GG is probably better equipped for accountancy than Mr Overeem 

If GG or Mr Overeem had any sense they'd have a tax advisor and/or an accountant to advise them what is the best choice. What I'm saying is that your calculations are meaningless, but that a 30-50 tax alone out of anything he gets paid is a reasonable assumption. Then on top of that he has to pay management/agent/etc. fees.

Although I live in the Netherlands, I'm no tax expert. But I believe sportsmen (and artists) who don't get a steady paycheck have a different tax system than salaried persons.

Also, insurance for an MMA fighter is _much _more expensive than for a layperson.

Not sure what sales tax or inflation have to do with any of the above. We all have to pay those, not just Mr Overeem. If he doesn't like it, he's welcome to move to Monaco, as that seems to be the cool thing to do for athletes who feel they don't need to support the system that made it possible for them, their parents and all their other stakeholders to make him/her successful in the first place.


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

Carlson Gracie left Helio Gracie.

Murilo Bustamante, Ricardo Libório, Mário Sperry and Luis Roberto Duarte left Carlson Gracie to start BTT.

Anderson Silva, the Nogueira brothers, Ricardo Liborio, Mario Sperry, Hermes Franca, Vitor Belfort, and more all left BTT.

Anderson Silva, The Rua brothers, Wanderlei Silva, Assuerio Silva, Thiago Silva, Gabriel Gonzaga and others all left Chute Box.

I mean, we could go on and on about all the fighters who left their trainers or management. It's ridiculously common.

Hell, Fedor gets tons of shit for *not* leaving a camp/management team that people view as corrupt.

Alistair Overeem leaves a management team run by a drug trafficker who is in prison for double murder, and people hate on him for it?

It's a crazy world.


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## MikeHawk (Sep 11, 2009)

SmackyBear said:


> Carlson Gracie left Helio Gracie.
> 
> Murilo Bustamante, Ricardo Libório, Mário Sperry and Luis Roberto Duarte left Carlson Gracie to start BTT.
> 
> ...


Only people I feel bad for are the trainers, they're the ones getting fucked out of money they deserve. Overeem's a douche bag, yeah. But, Golden Glory needs to quit being butt hurt over a fighter moving on after they get bigger. That's what happens in the management business every single day.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Atras said:


> While all your examples are correct on the surface, there's much more to it than that. The reason payments were made to GG rather than directly to the fighters was probably due to taxation in part. Other part being that if Mr Overeem paid managers, agents, trainers etc. out of his pocket, he'd have to be the one doing the paperwork, ie. he'd be an employer. GG is probably better equipped for accountancy than Mr Overeem
> 
> If GG or Mr Overeem had any sense they'd have a tax advisor and/or an accountant to advise them what is the best choice. What I'm saying is that your calculations are meaningless, but that a 30-50 tax alone out of anything he gets paid is a reasonable assumption. Then on top of that he has to pay management/agent/etc. fees.
> 
> ...


Large scale systems don't make people successful, individual hard work does. Systems are just there to claim credit for it and leech off it. Sure, Overeem owes stuff to his community, family, friends, trainers and partners. But community =/= government. Governments are self-serving and nothing more than necessary evils that eventually bloat and take more and more of the COMMUNITY'S resources for their own unnecessary crap. There is an important difference between the two.

IMO this is the difference between the American and the European mindset (although America seems to be changing for the worse too, which is the cause of our troubles). Do you know that for centuries after America was founded, even the roads and postal services were built run by private citizens? Power? Transport? Everything was built and run by the communities themselves, not some bloated centralized government. Do you know what the income tax was? NONE. 

Now that "lack of a system" must've made America the weakest country in the world right? WRONG. For the last 300 years, America grew to be the largest economy and the most powerful, influential and technologically developed country on the planet. Until now, when the glorious "system" has come to claim credit for all of this. This system that we apparently "owe" all our success to.

And "management" comes under that same self-serving parasitical banner that does nothing but claim credit for your work. His trainers and partners yes I believe deserve to benefit from his success, but remember they were only getting 10% from that 35%. The remaining 25%? Robbery. They deserve 5% at best.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Look if I'm fighting you pay me not the dojo, I think reem is being a cockslice but if you have a contract take him to court and get your money its that simple or just turn it over to collections that's what they do where I train no high-school drama or back and forth.

Not sure we are getting the full story but reem needs to pony up or all of the gyms should just black list him and I'm just talking about what he is contractually obligated to pay. The rest of the money thay want is not theirs to ask for, get it in writing or eat nonpayment everyone knows this.

Fn auto correct ..


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

John8204 said:


> *You've got it twisted, you are talking about the downside of contracts and using that as proof.* At worst with the guys fighting on the prelims the downside of the contract is 30-40% of what they take home. Where the money is coming from is very important, the UFC is not the end all be all of the revenue stream...and this is the issue. Overeem doesn't want to give hundreds of thousands of dollars to Golden Glory.
> 
> In the last month we've just Dana talk about how 20 fighters are multi-millionaires and 40 millionaires.
> 
> ...


I stopped there.

Im not using the downside of anything or claiming anything that isnt. Im talking about how much Overeem is going to make of the UFC. If i take in account the sponsor money then that might range between 200k-300k. (And that is only because Overeem is fighting Brock Lesnar) It still means Overeem isnt getting near these 2million dollar pay outs.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

SmackyBear said:


> Carlson Gracie left Helio Gracie.
> 
> Murilo Bustamante, Ricardo Libório, Mário Sperry and Luis Roberto Duarte left Carlson Gracie to start BTT.
> 
> ...


Maybe it has to do with the fact that he disrespected them on the way out and owes them money...

But lets not let those other things get in the way.

You were on a roll I won't stop you now...


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Maybe it has to do with the fact that he disrespected them on the way out and owes them money...
> 
> But lets not let those other things get in the way.
> 
> You were on a roll I won't stop you now...


Doesn't Golden Glory owe Overeem money?


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Rauno said:


> Doesn't Golden Glory owe Overeem money?


This. Everybody seems to ignore that Golden Glory has failed to pay Overeem for his K-1 HW tournament fights. Considering the won the whole thing that has to be a lot of money.

I've posted this before in this thread but I will post it again since nobody seems to notice/care. Overeem, Saki, Aerts and Le Banner all have not been paid for their recent K-1 fights. It's Golden Glory who owes money to all these fighters, not the other way around.


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## music5x5 (Jun 9, 2010)

Rauno said:


> Doesn't Golden Glory owe Overeem money?


LOL at us discussing who is right or wrong and we have absolutely no idea what's really going on. 

Man, I love the Internet.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

music5x5 said:


> LOL at us discussing who is right or wrong and we have absolutely no idea what's really going on.
> 
> Man, I love the Internet.


I haven't taken any sides nor i've said who's right or wrong, just wanted to put that into the discussion as well.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Liddellianenko said:


> Um, all of those facts are dead wrong. Do you have any idea how taxation even works? 10%??? Do you realize the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM deductible he can get is per year is 15,000 Euros?


As far as I can tell that only refers to education costs. The passage in question reads as follows:



> Education costs can only be deductible if they are more then E 500. The first E 500 are not deductible. The maximum deductible amount per year is E 15.000. If the employer pays or reimburses part of the fees then this part is also not deductible.


There's nothing on those pages which says there's a limit of X amount in total which can be deducted each year.


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## Term (Jul 28, 2009)

Rauno said:


> Doesn't Golden Glory owe Overeem money?


Is it GG that owes or FEG. I always assumed FEG has never paid them.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Term said:


> Is it GG that owes or FEG. I always assumed FEG has never paid them.


I think FEG hasn't paid GG therefore GG hasn't paid Overeem? Hence why Overeem is not pleased because GG can't get his money. And to my understanding he shouldn't have to worry about that because the way GG operates, they owe Overeem money, not FEG.


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Maybe it has to do with the fact that he disrespected them on the way out and owes them money...
> 
> But lets not let those other things get in the way.
> 
> You were on a roll I won't stop you now...


According to Bas Rutten, yes. Though I will point out that a member of this forum wished for Overeem to get shot in the back of the head on the street after he left GG but before Bas said any of this. So to act like that's the only reason anyone is mad seems like you haven't been listening to people who are mad at him.



Rauno said:


> Doesn't Golden Glory owe Overeem money?


According to his lawsuit, they owe him about $150k. But that's from his side, just like Bas' story is from GG's side. I don't know the truth of either.



Term said:


> Is it GG that owes or FEG. I always assumed FEG has never paid them.


FEG supposedly owes him $400k for the grand prix win. I don't know if he got paid for his fight with Duffee at Dream. 

Since he's "only" suing GG for $150k, it may be a different issue. Or maybe they paid him part of what they owe and he's suing for the rest? Not sure.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Term said:


> Is it GG that owes or FEG. I always assumed FEG has never paid them.


GG owes Overeem his UFC signing bonus which was something like 200,000 dollars.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

I knew Overeem stunk of traitor form the very start.

Everything from the very start, from them pulling him out of the GP, ditching the rest of the GG team to him signing up and moving camp was a set up from the very start, all part of a deal he pre-planned out with Zuffa, once the deal was set then the pieces where all staged in chain, The Reem is a traitor who sold out his entire team in order to make more money for himself, he has no honour, and joins the ranks of Sonnen in the low stream of human values as a person, I hope he signed a blood contract with the devil himself and is destined to spend eternity in hell, I hope that is the cost of selling out others like that.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

im sure bas has some pals over at GG.


if this wasnt mentioned already


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

KillerShark1985 said:


> I knew Overeem stunk of traitor form the very start.
> 
> Everything from the very start, from them pulling him out of the GP, ditching the rest of the GG team to him signing up and moving camp was a set up from the very start, all part of a deal he pre-planned out with Zuffa, once the deal was set then the pieces where all staged in chain, The Reem is a traitor who sold out his entire team in order to make more money for himself, he has no honour, and joins the ranks of Sonnen in the low stream of human values as a person, I hope he signed a blood contract with the devil himself and is destined to spend eternity in hell, I hope that is the cost of selling out others like that.


That doesn't make any sense.

If Zuffa and he conspired to get him out of GG, why did Zuffa arrange his UFC contract with GG? Reem's contract states that GG gets 35% of any deals they negotiate for a year after he leaves.

So if it was always prearranged for him to leave, why wouldn't he leave them before he had them negotiate his contract?

He's suing to get that contract voided now, but he wouldn't even need to if he had dumped them a little earlier, but still well after this "preplanned deal" you're sure happened.

If your scenario is true, he'd be risking 35% of his money for a year for absolutely no reason. Does that make any sense to you? If you were planning to leave your management, would you let them negotiate the biggest deal of your life and risk them earning 35% commission on it? I think anyone would dump them before that.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

We are too far removed to be able to say who's on the right side of the fence. To me it sounds like gg and reem both acted unprofessionally so in my mind they both share some blame.

That's what's nice about having a legal system, if people owe you money you go to court and hash it out.

So how many of you would be willing to allow someone else to cash a check you risked life and limb for? Nobody takes those risks WITH you. To me its simple, pay your bills and if you don't off to collections with you but nobody should be allowed to cash a check for a fighter, too many financial blood suckers in this businesses to allow that next thing you know fighters will be back to getting nothing.

We owe doctors, directv and a few other bills I can only guess what it would be like to have someone pay the bills with there prioritys and give me what's left over, I'm not saying bas doesn't make some good points but that's more about personal responsibility. No way ill ever sign with a gym that makes me turn over my paycheck and I don't care who owns, teaches or trains there.


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