# Who wins? Chael Sonnen vs...



## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

I made this thread on another forum and the results were very mixed. It amazes me the varying views on Chael.

Chael Sonnen vs Chris Weidman
Chael Sonnen vs Vitor Belfort
Chael Sonnen vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs Jacare
Chael Sonnen vs Luke Rockhold
Chael Sonnen vs Wanderlei
Chael Sonnen vs Costas Philippou
Chael Sonnen vs Forrest Griffin
Chael Sonnen vs Shogun
Chael Sonnen vs Hendo
Chael Sonnen vs Machida
Chael Sonnen vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs Gustafsson
Chael Sonnen vs Mousasi
Chael Sonnen vs Feijao
Chael Sonnen vs Rashad
Chael Sonnen vs Glover
Chael Sonnen vs Te Huna
Chael Sonnen vs Matt Hamill 
Chael Sonnen vs Rich Franklin


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
Chael Sonnen vs *Luke Rockhold*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
Chael Sonnen vs *Shogun*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
Chael Sonnen vs *Mousasi*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rashad
*Chael Sonnen* vs Glover
*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

Weidman
Sonnen
Sonnen
Jacare
Sonnen
Sonnen
Sonnen
Sonnen
Sonnen
Sonnen
Machida
Sonnen
Gustafsson
Mousasi
Sonnen
Sonnen
Teixeira
Sonnen
Sonnen
Sonnen

I think he wins most of those match ups.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

It seriously makes me sick how people view Sonnen. It's baffling. 

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
Chael Sonnen vs *Wanderlei*
Chael Sonnen vs *Costas Philippou*
Chael Sonnen vs *Forrest Griffin*
Chael Sonnen vs *Shogun*
Chael Sonnen vs *Hendo*
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
Chael Sonnen vs *Mousasi*
Chael Sonnen vs *Feijao*
Chael Sonnen vs *Rashad*
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
Chael Sonnen vs *Te Huna*
Chael Sonnen vs *Matt Hamill*
Chael Sonnen vs *Rich Franklin*


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Chael Sonnen vs Chris Weidman - Ask me again after Weidman vs. Silva 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort - Sonnen wins easily via wrestling. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard - Sonnen wins easily via wrestling.

Chael Sonnen vs Jacare - Could go either way, to be honest. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold - Sonnen shows Rockhold what real wrestling is. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei - lol... don't make me laugh. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou - I think Chael could get it to the ground, where Costas is pretty much useless. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin - Forrest is done. Complete mismatch. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Shogun - See above. Although not quite as 'done' as Forrest. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo - Jake Shields outwrestled this guy...

*Chael Sonnen* vs Machida - Tougher call, and I'd not be shocked to see Machida win. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader - Put Bader on his back, and he's lost. 

Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*

*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi - I don't think Mousasi has evolved that much since the King Mo loss. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao

*Chael Sonnen* vs Rashad - This version of Evans would get taken down and controlled. The Evans who fought Davis, however, could beat Sonnen. 

Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*

Chael Sonnen vs Te Huna - Honestly... I'm stumped on this one. I know some don't think Te Huna is the real deal, but I do. And he's pretty fecking strong. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin - Sonnen by a mile.


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## tommydaone (Feb 19, 2010)

I think Sonnen beats all middleweights there except maybe Weidman. Hard to tell against the LHWs seeing as he hasn't fought there yet, anyone know if Chael is planning to stay at LHW if he loses?


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

OU said:


> It seriously makes me sick how people view Sonnen. It's baffling.
> 
> Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
> Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
> ...


No offence, my friend, but the fact that you chose Wand and Henderson over Sonnen proves to me that you legitimately just don't like the man, and that blatantly clouds your judgement. You can tell me that's not the case, but it's clear as day. Just using plain old fashioned sense should tell you that Sonnen would easily outwrestle Hendo and Wand, cruising to a UD. 

I'm sorry it makes you 'sick' that some people can see passed their own personal distaste for a fighter.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
Chael Sonnen vs *Hector Lombard*
Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
Chael Sonnen vs *Luke Rockhold*
Chael Sonnen vs *Wanderlei*
Chael Sonnen vs *Costas Philippou*
Chael Sonnen vs *Forrest Griffin*
Chael Sonnen vs *Shogun*
Chael Sonnen vs *Hendo*
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
Chael Sonnen vs *Bader*
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
Chael Sonnen vs *Mousasi*
Chael Sonnen vs *Feijao*
Chael Sonnen vs *Rashad*
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
Chael Sonnen vs *Te Huna*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
Chael Sonnen vs *Rich Franklin*


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman* (by overpowering him, either Decision or KO)
Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort* (sub, hungry Belfort is hungry)
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard (if he can avoid being caught in the 1st)
Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare* (sub)
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei (PRIDE Silva would have won)
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou (if he can avoid being caught in the 1st & 2nd)
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
*Chael Sonnen* vs Shogun (PRIDE Rua would have won)
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida* (KO or Sub)
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson* (KO)
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
Chael Sonnen vs Feijao no idea
Chael Sonnen vs *Rashad* (Decision)
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover* (KO)
Chael Sonnen vs Te Huna no idea
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin (prime Franklin would be 50/50)

All of Sonnen's wins by decision.


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## Spite (Jul 7, 2009)

*Chael Sonnen* vs Chris Weidman
Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
*Chael Sonnen* vs Jacare
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
Chael Sonnen vs *Shogun*
Chael Sonnen vs *Hendo*
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
*Chael Sonnen* vs Gustafsson
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
Chael Sonnen vs *Rashad*
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
Chael Sonnen vs *Te Huna*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
Chael Sonnen vs *Rich Franklin*


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> No offence, my friend, but the fact that you chose Wand and Henderson over Sonnen proves to me that you legitimately just don't like the man, and that blatantly clouds your judgement. You can tell me that's not the case, but it's clear as day. Just using plain old fashioned sense should tell you that Sonnen would easily outwrestle Hendo and Wand, cruising to a UD.
> 
> I'm sorry it makes you 'sick' that some people can see passed their own personal distaste for a fighter.


Sersiously? You people are so delusional if you think Hendo couldn't knock Sonnens face off. The man just went on an epic run that Chael Sonnen could only dream about, Chael Sonnen could put plaster in his gloves and still not possess the ability to even phase Hendo. He would have to put Hendo on his back for the entire fight. I think the old man can find that chin, Sonnen ain't running away like Machida. He will come forward and eventually get KTFO. 

How picking Hendo over Chael Sonnen is controversial in any way says a hell of a lot more about you guys then is does me. ******* unreal how this man is overrated. He has struggled with much lesser fighters then the men listed.


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## OHKO (Jul 11, 2010)

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*

*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort

*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard

Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*

*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold

*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei

*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou

*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin

*Chael Sonnen* vs Shogun

*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo

Chael Sonnen vs Machida - Tough one. Could see it going either way.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader

*Chael Sonnen* vs Gustafsson

*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi

*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao

Chael Sonnen vs Rashad - Would have said Rashad if that Lil Nog fight didn't happen. No idea on this one. 

Chael Sonnen vs Glover - Can see it going either way. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna

*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin

I think it is pretty obvious you hate Sonnen when you actually think that Wanderlei, Shogun, Franklin and Matt Fecking Hamill will beat Sonnen.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

OU said:


> Sersiously? You people are so delusional if you think Hendo couldn't knock Sonnens face off. The man just went on an epic run that Chael Sonnen could only dream about, Chael Sonnen could put plaster in his gloves and still now possess the ability to even phase Hendo. He would have to put Hendo on his back for the entire fight. I think the old man can find that chin, Sonnen ain't running away like Machida. He will come forward and eventually get KTFO.
> 
> How picking Hendo over Chael Sonnen is controversial in any way says a hell of a lot more about you guys then is does me. ******* unreal how this man is overrated. He has struggled with much lesser fighters then the men listed.


First, relax. You're making yourself look like an arse getting as upset as you are. Second, I don't base my choices off of 'delusion'. Yes, Henderson could find Chael's chin. That's more than possible. But Dan could also get taken down and be entirely useless off of his back for three rounds. Jake Shields - Jake bloody Shields - ate a vicious H-Bomb and still managed to take Henderson down and control him with relative ease for four rounds. And I'm to believe that Chael Sonnen, a world class wrestler, could not do the same for three rounds? I stand by my original choice. Putting Henderson on his back for an entire fight is not impossible, as it's been done in the past by lesser grapplers than Sonnen. 

You think Sonnen is overrated. I and others don't and won't. That's the beauty of opinion, but again, your blatant overreactions and the fact that you're legitimately getting riled up over something so trivial proves to me just how biased you are. I'm a massive Sonnen fan, but you'll note that even I admitted that he'd lose against and have trouble with certain fighters. Whereas you essentially believe he'd lose to pretty much everyone. And anytime someone says otherwise, you fly off at the handle and talk about how ill it makes you, and how delusional the rest of us must be. What's the point of that style of debate?

I think this, but you think that, and so I'm delusional and wrong... yeah, I'll be showing myself out.


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## Shady1 (Jan 27, 2011)

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
*Chael Sonnen *vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
*Chael Sonnen* vs Shogun
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo
*Chael Sonnen* vs Machida
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rashad
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Chael Sonnen vs Chris Weidman - no idea ... make it happen!!!
*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs Jacare - very tough call I think
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
Chael Sonnen vs *Forrest Griffin* - Forrest by being 240 pounds
Chael Sonnen vs *Shogun* - Shogun via personal bias
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo - Chael via being a better wrestler than Jake Shields
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
Chael Sonnen vs *Mousasi* - Mousasi via beating Chael up from the guard and then losing another bad decision
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rashad - Chael via Rashad being with the Blackzillians
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin

12-6-2 in favor of Sonnen for me I guess.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> First, relax. You're making yourself look like an arse getting as upset as you are. Second, I don't base my choices off of 'delusion'. Yes, Henderson could find Chael's chin. That's more than possible. But Dan could also get taken down and be entirely useless off of his back for three rounds. Jake Shields - Jake bloody Shields - ate a vicious H-Bomb and still managed to take Henderson down and control him with relative ease for four rounds. And I'm to believe that Chael Sonnen, a world class wrestler, could not do the same for three rounds? I stand by my original choice. Putting Henderson on his back for an entire fight is not impossible, as it's been done in the past by lesser grapplers than Sonnen.
> 
> You think Sonnen is overrated. I and others don't and won't. That's the beauty of opinion, but again, your blatant overreactions and the fact that you're legitimately getting riled up over something so trivial proves to me just how biased you are. I'm a massive Sonnen fan, but you'll note that even I admitted that he'd lose and have trouble with certain fights. You essentially feel he'd lose to pretty much everyone, and anytime someone says otherwise, you fly off at the handle and talk about how ill it makes you, and how delusions the rest of us are. What's the point to that style of debate?
> 
> I think this, but you think that, and so I'm delusions and wrong... yeah, I'll be showing myself out.


I ain't even mad bro, this isn't that serious. But I think it's crazy that picking Hendo over Chael would be in any way shape or form a controversial pick. Seriously Hendo has a chance to win any fight he is in...except maybe vs Spider. But everyone else in the World can get put down. How is it a stretch to think that Hendo could beat Sonnen? That I can't wrap my head around. You specifically called me out on that matchup. Now the Wand call out I get. But Hendo? I think you are the one overreacting on that one.

Sonnen isn't some undefeated monster and unstoppable grappler. He can't put everyone down for the entire fight. I've seen him struggle to get and keep people down.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

OU said:


> It seriously makes me sick how people view Sonnen. It's baffling.
> 
> Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
> Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
> ...


This just reeks of bias. I'm not a huge Chael fan either but suggesting that he wouldn't beat most of these guys is just plain ridiculous. You know very well that I can't stand Nick Diaz and think he's one of the most overrated fighters in the sport, but if you gave me a similar list of WW's odds are I would favor Diaz in most of those contests.

It's okay not to like a fighter, that's part of what this sport is about, but if you don't think Sonnen could beat the likes of Wanderlei, Griffin, Hamill and Philppou then I would respectfully request you reconsider your analysis without bias.


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## Servatose (Apr 21, 2008)

After seeing how dominantly Chael was able to implement his game plan over Yushin Okami and Nate Marquardt, and Silva in their first fight the former being a very strong grappler, the later having a solid enough base and strength that it means a lot to have been smothered the way he was makes me think Chael would out work most of the guys in this list, especially fighters like Wanderlei and Shogun who would gas pretty quickly beneath a guy with that kind of work ethic.

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort (Johnson was able to hold Vitor down until he gassed himself out, I see no reason Chael wouldn't be able to do the same minus the gassing)
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
*Chael Sonnen* vs Jacare
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
*Chael Sonnen* vs Shogun
Chael Sonnen vs *Hendo*
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs Gustafsson (No idea where Gustaf's TDD is)
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rashad
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

I love Rich Franklin. My absolute favorite fighter ever. Only Cain and Faber even come close to the level of fandom I have for Rich. But I'll be the first to admit, Sonnen would WRECK Franklin at this stage.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Ari said:


> This just reeks of bias. I'm not a huge Chael fan either but suggesting that he wouldn't beat most of these guys is just plain ridiculous. You know very well that I can't stand Nick Diaz and think he's one of the most overrated fighters in the sport, but if you gave me a similar list of WW's odds are I would favor Diaz in most of those contests.
> 
> It's okay not to like a fighter, that's part of what this sport is about, but if you don't think Sonnen could beat the likes of Wanderlei, Griffin, Hamill and Philppou then I would respectfully request you reconsider your analysis without bias.


It goes well beyond not like Chael Sonnen. It's about watching him fight and not thinking he is that good really. In my honest opinion he is probably the 4th or 5th best MW in the World right now. But at LHW? I don't think he cracks the top 20 and I don't think I'm stretching by saying these things. I am pleased that just about everyone realized that Jacare would do him just as bad or worse then Maia did him. But I don't understand why people think he can just hold down these larger men for the entire fight. What have you guys seen that makes you think he can blanket these fighters? They are bigger, stronger and just better fighters then the men that Chael has done that to. Forget Chael's personality and how I feel about him. I feel he is extremely overrated as a fighter. Watching him fight, I have no idea how he gets the love he does as a fighter.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Ari said:


> I love Rich Franklin. My absolute favorite fighter ever. Only Cain and Faber even come close to the level of fandom I have for Rich. But I'll be the first to admit, Sonnen would WRECK Franklin at this stage.


Why would you say that? Rich is game vs anyone that can't knock him out and Chael can't knock him out. Rich has very good TDD and is a much, much better standup fighter then Sonnen. I think he is a bad matchup for Chael. To beat Rich you need KO power or you need to have better standup. It's very hard to beat Rich by holding him down. How often have we seen that happen?


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## Jesy Blue (May 8, 2009)

are we basing this on current or are we basing this on their prime?

like i think he could take wanderlei currently, but middle of Pride wanerlei would be too fast.... the knees and punches would have chael out before the double leg attempt finished.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

OU said:


> Why would you say that? Rich is game vs anyone that can't knock him out and Chael can't knock him out. Rich has very good TDD and is a much, much better standup fighter then Sonnen. I think he is a bad matchup for Chael. To beat Rich you need KO power or you need to have better standup. It's very hard to beat Rich by holding him down. How often have we seen that happen?


LOL Chael would be on top of Rich all night. and win the decision. He wouldn't stop a lot of the guys on the list but he beats a good amount. I'll edit my post and add my thoughts when I get the chance


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Jesy Blue said:


> are we basing this on current or are we basing this on their prime?
> 
> like i think he could take wanderlei currently, but middle of Pride wanerlei would be too fast.... the knees and punches would have chael out before the double leg attempt finished.


Current. In their prime most of these guys would maul Sonnen badly. Prime Shogun would put Chael in a coma.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Stun Gun said:


> LOL Chael would be on top of Rich all night. and win the decision. He wouldn't stop a lot of the guys on the list but he beats a good amount. I'll edit my post and add my thoughts when I get the chance


Name 1 time someone beat Rich Franklin in his entire career by holding him down for 3 rounds. Name 1 time. Rich Franklin has one the toughest resumes in all of MMA. Yet he has never even 1 time lost a fight by being on his back for 3 rounds.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

OU said:


> Name 1 time someone beat Rich Franklin in his entire career by holding him down for 3 rounds. Name 1 time. Rich Franklin has one the toughest resumes in all of MMA. Yet he has never even 1 time lost a fight by being on his back for 3 rounds.


forrest griffin did it


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

OU said:


> Why would you say that? Rich is game vs anyone that can't knock him out and Chael can't knock him out. Rich has very good TDD and is a much, much better standup fighter then Sonnen. I think he is a bad matchup for Chael. To beat Rich you need KO power or you need to have better standup. It's very hard to beat Rich by holding him down. How often have we seen that happen?


I agree that Rich is tough and a much better striker than Chael, but I don't think Rich has the TDD to stop Sonnen at MW or LHW. The reason we haven't seen Franklin get held down is because he's never really faced a high level wrestler. Henderson's top control is overrated and stood with Rich (I thought Rich won that fight pretty convincingly too) for most of the fight. We saw Forrest Griffin control Rich on the ground not tremendously long ago, althuogh I agree there was a massive size difference.

Like I said I love me some Rich and if we were talking about prime Franklin vs. Sonnen then my opinion would be different, but today's Sonnen beats today's Rich, sadly.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

OU said:


> Sersiously? You people are so delusional if you think Hendo couldn't knock Sonnens face off. The man just went on an epic run that Chael Sonnen could only dream about, Chael Sonnen could put plaster in his gloves and still not possess the ability to even phase Hendo. He would have to put Hendo on his back for the entire fight. I think the old man can find that chin, Sonnen ain't running away like Machida. He will come forward and eventually get KTFO.
> 
> How picking Hendo over Chael Sonnen is controversial in any way says a hell of a lot more about you guys then is does me. ******* unreal how this man is overrated. He has struggled with much lesser fighters then the men listed.


Of course Henderson could find anyones chin and knock him out, but that's happening mostly only if his opponents stay at striking range which Sonnen usually doesn't. Sonnen tugs his chin and drives through the danger zone and than gets the TD.



Servatose said:


> *Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort (Johnson was able to hold Vitor down until he gassed himself out, I see no reason Chael wouldn't be able to do the same minus the gassing)


Yes, Johnson was able to hold Belfort down, but he was also way heavier than Belfort. Johnson walks around at HW (~235lb) and the fight originally was set to be at MW, which Johnson missed, so Belfort agreed before fightnight to do it at a catch weight for which he actually wasn't prepared.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

John8204 said:


> forrest griffin did it


He held Ace down for 3 rounds? Amazing that he still lost a round and almost lost the fight...


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## OHKO (Jul 11, 2010)

OU said:


> Why would you say that? Rich is game vs anyone that can't knock him out and Chael can't knock him out. Rich has very good TDD and is a much, much better standup fighter then Sonnen. I think he is a bad matchup for Chael. To beat Rich you need KO power or you need to have better standup. It's very hard to beat Rich by holding him down. How often have we seen that happen?


Uh...Griffin Vs Franklin? :confused02:

Griffin did it for a round. Sonnen will do it for all three.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

OU said:


> Name 1 time someone beat Rich Franklin in his entire career by holding him down for 3 rounds. Name 1 time. Rich Franklin has one the toughest resumes in all of MMA. Yet he has never even 1 time lost a fight by being on his back for 3 rounds.


name 1 time Rich fought someone with the level of wrestling that Chael has?


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Ari said:


> I agree that Rich is tough and a much better striker than Chael, but I don't think Rich has the TDD to stop Sonnen at MW or LHW. The reason we haven't seen Franklin get held down is because he's never really faced a high level wrestler. Henderson's top control is overrated and stood with Rich (I thought Rich won that fight pretty convincingly too) for most of the fight. We saw Forrest Griffin control Rich on the ground not tremendously long ago, althuogh I agree there was a massive size difference.
> 
> Like I said I love me some rich and if we were talking about Prim Franklin vs. Sonnen then my opinion would be different, but today's Sonnen beats today's Rich, sadly.


Matt Hamill's wrestling is pretty comparable to Sonnen's. Not too far off. How did that fight go down?


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Anoher fun question.
Out of those fighters, who do you see Chael finishing????


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Stun Gun said:


> name 1 time Rich fought someone with the level of wrestling that Chael has?


If you think Sonnen's wreslting is that much better then Hamill's then you are wrong. His wrestling is being pushed to Godlike levels. Go ahead and look at Chael's biggest wins and then look at this list again. Chael is not beating guys on the same level as the guys listed. He squeaked by an overrated Bisping that just got blasted in his last fight. Rich has beat multiple fighters that are much better then Chael.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

OU said:


> Matt Hamill's wrestling is pretty comparable to Sonnen's. Not too far off. How did that fight go down?


Matt Hamill is half the fighter that Chael is. 
His wrestling is more comparable to Bader than Chael
And Hamill is not an aggressive fighter, Chael is and would put Rich on his back and hold him there and beat him up


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

OU said:


> If you think Sonnen's wreslting is that much better then Hamill's then you are wrong. His wrestling is being pushed to Godlike levels. Go ahead and look at Chael's biggest wins and then look at this list again. Chael is not beating guys on the same level as the guys listed. He squeaked by an overrated Bisping that just got blasted in his last fight. Rich has beat multiple fighters that are much better then Chael.


What are you basing this off of? 
Chael has proven to be a better MMA wrestler and a amateur


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Stun Gun said:


> Matt Hamill is half the fighter that Chael is.
> His wrestling is more comparable to Bader than Chael
> And Hamill is not an aggressive fighter, Chael is and would put Rich on his back and hold him there and beat him up


Disagree that Chael Sonnen would be the 1st man in Ace's legendary career to hold him down for 3 rounds. You are both underrating Ace over a 3 round fight and overrating Chael's ability to take and keep people down. Ace is a better fighter then Bisping even today.


----------



## OHKO (Jul 11, 2010)

OU said:


> *Matt Hamill's wrestling is pretty comparable to Sonnen's.* Not too far off. How did that fight go down?


You gotta be kidding me. :confused03: Hamill competed in Division lll. Couldn't outwrestle Rampage and Gustafsson. Meanwhile Sonnen is a Division l All-American and is an Olympic alternate. Weird that you are the one calling others delusional.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

OU said:


> Disagree that Chael Sonnen would be the 1st man in Ace's legendary career to hold him down for 3 rounds. You are both underrating Ace over a 3 round fight and overrating Chael's ability to take and keep people down. Ace is a better fighter then Bisping even today.


I disagree on both accounts. Bisping would beat Rich, but that is for another thread. 

Rich would cause problems for chael keeping him down the entire time. But Chael would be taking him down, or putting Rich on the cage the entire fight, and would win.


----------



## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Chael Sonnen vs Chris Weidman
Don't know yet, need to see Weidman fight a few more times to know how he's coming along.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
Wrestling. It works. Those guys will get to spend 14:50 with their backs on the mat.

Chael Sonnen vs Jacare
Tossup. Has Chael learned to defend the triangle?

*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
Chael takes them down and works them. Though Forrest could pull another triangle out of his ass.

Chael Sonnen vs Shogun
Tossup. Shogun is remarkably good at getting back up after being taken down. I'd lean towards Chael gassing him out with non-stop takedowns, but I think Shogun will be upright long enough to do some serious damage.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo
Repeat the Jake Shields fight

*Chael Sonnen* vs Machida
Machida's takedown defence is overrated. Sokoudjou got him down, Chael will get him down and keep him there.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs Gustafsson
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rashad

Haven't seen enough of Gustafsson to know how he deals with wrestlers. The rest of them get worked. Rashad could win if he grows a brain, but he's been getting dumber with each fight.

Chael Sonnen vs Glover
Don't know. I haven't seen enough of Glover to come to any conclusions.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen *vs Matt Hamill 
*Chael Sonnen *vs Rich Franklin

Te Huna will be trouble early, but he gasses pretty fast and then it's Chael all the way.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Stun Gun said:


> What are you basing this off of?
> Chael has proven to be a better MMA wrestler and a amateur


Tell me again who Sonnen has beaten that makes him this beast? Bisping? The one that just got KTFO out and never won a top fight? Marquardt? The one that has lost back to back fights? Paulo? The one who just got outgrappled badly by Branch. Brian Stann? The one that just lost to Wand? Dan Miller? The one that just lost at WW? 

Who the **** has Chael beaten that makes him this damn overrated? I hope after this pointless BS fight with Jones he gets the fights with Weidman, Vitor, Ace or anyone on this list so you can see how much this man has tricked the shit out of you. Nothing, nothing in his actual fights suggest he should be this damn overrated.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

OHKO said:


> You gotta be kidding me. :confused03: Hamill competed in Division lll. Couldn't outwrestle Rampage and Gustafsson. Meanwhile Sonnen competed in Division l All-American and is an Olympic alternate. Weird that you are the one calling others delusional.


LOL this


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

AmdM said:


> Anoher fun question.
> Out of those fighters, who do you see Chael finishing????


I don't think Sonnen would finish any of those fighters. All his wins would be by decision.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Holy shit I had no idea he reached this LOLz level of overrated. He is now by far the most overrated athlete in the history of the world. Who the **** has he beat? His best win of his career is Yushin Okami. 
The man gets credit for nothing. His world class wrestling was barely enough to beat an incredibly average wrestler in Bisping. Yet his wrestling is now on some unstoppable level?


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

OU said:


> Tell me again who Sonnen has beaten that makes him this beast? Bisping? The one that just got KTFO out and never won a top fight? Marquardt? The one that has lost back to back fights? Paulo? The one who just got outgrappled badly by Branch. Brian Stann? The one that just lost to Wand? Dan Miller? The one that just lost at WW?
> 
> Who the **** has Chael beaten that makes him this damn overrated? I hope after this pointless BS fight with Jones he gets the fights with Weidman, Vitor, Ace or anyone on this list so you can see how much this man has tricked the shit out of you. Nothing, nothing in his actual fights suggest he should be this damn overrated.


Why are you avoiding my statements by going back to the same shit. What are you basing Hamills godly wrestling on?

Chael man handled Silva and lost because he lacks sub defense. 
Man handled a strong grappler named Yushin Okami 
Nate is great fighter whether you like him or not, losing back to back does not make him a shitty fighter, use some common sense. 

Paulo Filho is not the same fighter that he used to be, to completely ignore the fact that he was a great fighter is just stupid. 
Bisping is not an easy guy to hold down either, but you seem to forget this. Yes Bisping has average TDD, but the fact is he is great at scrambling back to his feet. 

You're more delusional than I am when it comes to asians


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

You guys are in for a serious wake up call. But unfortunitally he will probably retire when he gets destroyed by Bones. Which sucks because you guys obviously need to see him fight some of these guys so you can see just how LOL your warped views are on Sonnen. You would swear he was a top 5 LHW and #2 MW looking at these post. Which is just insane.


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## OHKO (Jul 11, 2010)

OU said:


> Tell me again who Sonnen has beaten that makes him this beast? Bisping? The one that just got KTFO out and never won a top fight? Marquardt? The one that has lost back to back fights? Paulo? The one who just got outgrappled badly by Branch. Brian Stann? The one that just lost to Wand? Dan Miller? The one that just lost at WW?
> 
> Who the **** has Chael beaten that makes him this damn overrated? I hope after this pointless BS fight with Jones he gets the fights with Weidman, Vitor, Ace or anyone on this list so you can see how much this man has tricked the shit out of you. Nothing, nothing in his actual fights suggest he should be this damn overrated.


And so Rich Franklin can actually beat Sonnen? Rich Franklin- the one that just got KTFO? The one who has won 1 fight in the past 3 years, while losing to Cung Le and Griffin? 

Matt Hamill? The one who had such a shitty fight with Roger freaking who Hollett in his last fight? Got dominated by Rampage and Gustafsson so badly that he decided to step away from the sport. Who has he won against? Tito Ortiz? The one who was on a 4 fight winless streak? Munoz? Who just got KTFOed? Tim Boetsch?


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

OU said:


> You guys are in for a serious wake up call. But unfortunitally he will probably retire when he gets destroyed by Bones. Which sucks because you guys obviously need to see him fight some of these guys so you can see just how LOL your warped views are on Sonnen. You would swear he was a top 5 LHW and #2 MW looking at these post. Which is just insane.


Are you going to continue to avoid that stupid comment about Hamill having better wrestling?



> And so Rich Franklin can actually beat Sonnen? Rich Franklin- the one that just got KTFO? The one who has won 1 fight in the past 3 years, while losing to Cung Le and Griffin?
> 
> Matt Hamill? The one who had such a shitty fight with Roger freaking who Hollett in his last fight? Got dominated by Rampage and Gustafsson so badly that he decided to step away from the sport. Who has he won against? Tito Ortiz? The one who was on a 4 fight winless streak? Munoz? Who just got KTFOed? Tim Boetsch?


He likes to avoid logic, forgive him


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Stun Gun said:


> Why are you avoiding my statements by going back to the same shit. What are you basing Hamills godly wrestling on?
> 
> Chael man handled Silva and lost because he lacks sub defense.
> Man handled a strong grappler named Yushin Okami
> ...


Anderson was badly hurt going into that fight and I think the 2nd fight domination and the x-rays pretty much proved that to be fact. But those 4 rounds vs a wounded Spider has caused fans to have a very warped view of Chael. 
Filho was fighting a ******* ghost in the ring, he was a shell of himself even at that point. 
Okami is his best win of his career. But that doesn't make him a world beater. 
Nate was a good win at the time and probably his 2nd best win. Solid win but not a great win.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Stun Gun said:


> Are you going to continue to avoid *that stupid comment about Hamill having better wrestling?*
> 
> 
> 
> He likes to avoid logic, forgive him


Why don't you work on your reading comprehension asshole, I called it comparable or not too far off at the least.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

OU said:


> Anderson was badly hurt going into that fight and I think the 2nd fight domination and the x-rays pretty much proved that to be fact. But those 4 rounds vs a wounded Spider has caused fans to have a very warped view of Chael.
> Filho was fighting a ******* ghost in the ring, he was a shell of himself even at that point.
> Okami is his best win of his career. But that doesn't make him a world beater.
> Nate was a good win at the time and probably his 2nd best win. Solid win but not a great win.


Still avoiding. You make stupid comments (serious ones) and then avoid them after you have been made a fool of.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

OU said:


> Why don't you work on your reading comprehension asshole, I called it comparable or not too far off at the least.


okay. my bad. How is it even comparable? He's not even half as good lol

Shit expected another foolish comment guess not


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm sorry OU but Chael Sonnen's wrestling is leagues better than Hamill's. Chael has a fast, explosive double and his ability to transition once on the floor is very good. Hamill is SLOOOOOOOOW, telegraphs his shots and has sloppy striking. Rich is a good enough defensive wrestler to keep guys like Hamill off of him, but Sonnen is one of the better wrestlers in the UFC.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

OU said:


> It goes well beyond not like Chael Sonnen. It's about watching him fight and not thinking he is that good really. In my honest opinion he is probably the 4th or 5th best MW in the World right now. But at LHW? I don't think he cracks the top 20 and I don't think I'm stretching by saying these things. I am pleased that just about everyone realized that Jacare would do him just as bad or worse then Maia did him. But I don't understand why people think he can just hold down these larger men for the entire fight. What have you guys seen that makes you think he can blanket these fighters? They are bigger, stronger and just better fighters then the men that Chael has done that to. Forget Chael's personality and how I feel about him. I feel he is extremely overrated as a fighter. Watching him fight, I have no idea how he gets the love he does as a fighter.


What sort of evidence do you have that would suggest that he's overrated? The Maia example was four years ago, both guys have improved significantly since then and have even changed divisions. I can agree with your assessment of Chael at LHW but he's beaten a solid bunch at 185. I'd like to see him against guys like Weidman, Jacare, etc to see how he'd do. I'm merely basing my opinions on how Sonnen's style would work vs. other LHW fighters. If he doesn't have much of a size discrepency then it's not unreasonable to say that he would beat most of the men mentioned.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

OU said:


> He held Ace down for 3 rounds? Amazing that he still lost a round and almost lost the fight...





> A brief play by play:
> 
> Griffin caught a Franklin kick attempt and took Franklin to the ground as the crowd chanted Griffin’s name.
> 
> ...


There was no "almost" losing, Forrest clearly won rounds 1&2 and he played it safe (and still should have won round 3). Franklin lost the fight because Forrest was able to lay on top of him plain and simple end of story. It's why three of us chimed in with that answer, because this is what we remember.


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## Mr Jeff 1 (Feb 14, 2013)

The bearded one must be high, sonnen beats most aqll of them


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

John8204 said:


> There was no "almost" losing, Forrest clearly won rounds 1&2 and he played it safe (and still should have won round 3). Franklin lost the fight because Forrest was able to lay on top of him plain and simple end of story. It's why three of us chimed in with that answer, because this is what we remember.


I forgot all about that fight lol. thank you lol


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## UKMMAGURU (Nov 15, 2009)

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs Jacare
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
Chael Sonnen vs Forrest Griffin
Chael Sonnen vs *Shogun*
Chael Sonnen vs *Hendo*
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
Chael Sonnen vs *Bader*
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
Chael Sonnen vs Feijao
Chael Sonnen vs *Rashad*
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin


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## Spite (Jul 7, 2009)

I can't believe so many people here think that Franlin has no chance against Sonnen.

It's not a foregone conclusion that Sonnen will take Franklin down and control him for 3 rounds. Forrest may have done it, but lets be honest, Franklin walks about at about 210 whereas Griffin walks about at around 240.

Franklin has been champ, and has a better resume than Sonnen. Sure he got flashed KO'd by Chug Le, but that can happen and has happened to most fighters.

Wrestling aside Franklin is much better rounded than Sonnen and beats him in every department other than wrestling.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Alright, cool down guys. I know you can discuss without throwing insults around.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Alright, cool down guys. I know you can discuss without *throwing insults around*.


Can we still throw kittens around?














BTW the kittens name..insult


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Coming close to beating Anderson once doesn't mean he can beat a bunch of these guys. The guys like Shogun, Mousasi, Vitor who have iffy wrestling, have more than enough BJJ/***** to pull something off from bottom. Guys like Gustaf, Feijao, Glover are strong enough, and have good enough TDD to light him up on the feet. He has a decent chance at beating anyone he can get down on paper...but his track record is terrible at staying out of subs. 



OU said:


> Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
> Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
> *Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
> Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
> ...


EDIT: Wow, I had no clue Sonnen was so overrated on this board. Yes he beat Nate Marquardt...who now fighst at 170. Yes he beat Okami when he was fit to make 185 and out-work guys. Yes, he almost beat Anderson, but got subb'd by a dead tired man while both were sweaty as hell. He has massive trouble getting and keeping Bisping down. Yet he is going to take a guy like Tex down? And keep him there? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Just because he ALMOST beat Silva at 185, doesn't mean he will be some top 5 LHW. He is probably going to get wrecked by Jones and then retire. He can't do what he did to guys at 185.at 205 also.

Anyone who thinks he beats Jacare is out of their minds. Sonnen has a bunch of people fooled. He beat some decent guys at 185...now a couple of years ago...and everyone thinks he can beat just about everyone at 185 and 205. He hasn't fought at 205 in how long? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh my this is a laugh.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

John8204 said:


> Can we still throw kittens around?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not within my power to make you stop throwing around kittens named insults. Go on, please. :thumbsup:


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Last I saw of Sonnen he was getting his TDs stuffed by Anderson Silva. The fight before that he was getting stuffed by Bisping...or Bisping was getting back to his feet. 

Now he is at 205. How old is he now? And he is just going to smother a bunch of stronger 205ers. He struggled with Bisping at 185 lbs. Yet he is going to beat Texeiria, a man with better TDD, stronger, more BJJ, and much scarier hands. Man, people must think highly of Bisping. 

What a laugh.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs* Jacare*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
Chael Sonnen vs* Shogun*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo
*Chael Sonnen* vs Machida
*Chael Sonnen *vs Bader
*Chael Sonnen* vs Gustafsson
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
Chael Sonnen vs *Feijao*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rashad
*Chael Sonnen *vs Glover
*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin

Chael beats most of these guys pretty easily I'd say. The only guys that would stop him would potentially be Shogun, Feijao, Weidman and the most likely, Jacare. Jacare's pretty much the worst possible match-up for Sonnen. Wicked stand-up, and ridiculous Jiu Jitsu. Shogun's very similar, awesome stand-up and a slick guard. Sonnen handily beats all the wrestlers, his takedowns are on another level, and no-one can handle his smothering top game. There is no way in hell Matt Hamill, or Ryan Bader would be able to handle Sonnen's wrestling.


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

Discuss this like adults please or the thread will get closed. Shock horror, people have different opinions on things. Who'd thunk it eh?

No insults. You know the score on this board. Banter is fine. Blatantly insulting people isn't. Going back through this thread to recheck some things.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Last I saw of Sonnen he was getting his TDs stuffed by Anderson Silva. The fight before that he was getting stuffed by Bisping...or Bisping was getting back to his feet.
> 
> Now he is at 205. How old is he now? And he is just going to smother a bunch of stronger 205ers. He struggled with Bisping at 185 lbs. Yet he is going to beat Texeiria, a man with better TDD, stronger, more BJJ, and much scarier hands. Man, people must think highly of Bisping.
> 
> What a laugh.


Anderson wasn't able to stuff Sonnen's takedowns in the first. And everyone knows that Silva held Chael's shorts in the second round - multiple times - to avoid a takedown. As for Mike, yes he performed very well, but he also got creamed in the third round. That fight ended with Chael on top, imposing his will. That's more or less fact. 

I also don't know why you're going on and on about Glover. Very few people here have said that Chael would go over Tex. I personally think Glover would beat the tar out of Chael (I even think he'll be the man to give Jones his toughest challenge). So, much like OU, you're getting riled up over nothing. 

What's truly funny is that some people think Sonnen would lose to Wand. Let's be honest. Most of these fights are speculative. Henderson could catch Sonnen, and Sonnen could control Henderson for three rounds. Both are entirely possible. Vitor could arm bar Sonnen, and Sonnen could smother Vitor and break him mentally. Again, both are entirely possible. 

But in reality, what are Shogun and Wand going to do? Shogun hasn't shown us anything off of his back in years, nor has Wand. You expect me to believe that either man has a shot at submitting Chael? They'd likely be taken down at will and easily controlled by someone who wouldn't gas ala Dan Henderson.

Yes, Maia submitted Sonnen. And yes, Anderson also did the same... but look at how long it took Silva to do it. Chael avoided several submission attempts over the course of 4.5 rounds. Look at how quickly Anderson submitted Lutter and Henderson, yet Chael, who has the 'worst submission defence in history' managed to avoid the triangle for 4.5 rounds. 

Frankly, the only opinion I could take seriously throughout this entire thread is that of Roflcopter. For all the smack he gets, there's a man who can at least put his own likes and dislikes aside and judge on the basis of actual strengths and weaknesses.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> Chael beats most of these guys pretty easily I'd say. The only guys that would stop him would potentially be Shogun, Feijao, Weidman and the most likely, Jacare. Jacare's pretty much the worst possible match-up for Sonnen. Wicked stand-up, and ridiculous Jiu Jitsu. Shogun's very similar, awesome stand-up and a slick guard. Sonnen handily beats all the wrestlers, his takedowns are on another level, and no-one can handle his smothering top game. There is no way in hell Matt Hamill, or Ryan Bader would be able to handle Sonnen's wrestling.


Where was the best wrestling the UFC has ever seen vs. Bisping? How about the 2nd round of the Anderson fight?

If he brings those same TDs vs. Tex, Hendo, Rashad, Gustaf, Feijao....he is getting stuffed. They are all better wrestlers or have better TDD than Bisping. All are stronger as well. All are better strikers. 

I'm so confused as to how people think Chael can just wrestle anyone because he did it to Marquardt, Okami, and Silva 1 of those fights. How does that mean he can just take down and control most of the top 205ers? Or stay out of subs for that matter? 

The man is getting old. He just changed divisions because he could no longer make 185. :dunno:


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Funny, I wasn't aware Jake Shields is a master wrestler.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Anderson wasn't able to stuff Sonnen's takedowns in the first.


Can't stand when people say this. Did you actually watch the round? Anderson ran at him like a wild man. Like he was Leonard Garcia. I could have take Anderson down. Was the easiest TD in the history of TDs. 

He wrestled Okami what like 3 years ago? So that means he is going to wrestle strong 205ers?

No one has an ounce of proof as to how Sonnen would do at 205...yet they pick him to beat most all of the top 10. I HOPE he does a couple more fights at 205 to prove this. 

Can't make this stuff up.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Funny, I wasn't aware Jake Shields is a master wrestler.


You probably also weren't aware that it was the last time Hendo was ever at 185. At 40 years old cutting to 185 was too much and it showed. Hendo was a pile of uselessness after he went for the finish in the 1st and didn't get it.

You are joking yourself if you think he is the same guy at 205.

Perhaps Sonnen could take Hendo down and keep him there. Or perhaps like Stann, Anderson, and Bisping Hendo can stuff 1 or 2 TDs early...giving him enough time to land a big shot. 

I bet if you asked Sonnen in the privacy without camera's...he would say Hendo whoops him in the gym all the time. He knows uncle Dan would have his way with little Chael.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Can't stand when people say this. Did you actually watch the round? Anderson ran at him like a wild man. Like he was Leonard Garcia. I could have take Anderson down. Was the easiest TD in the history of TDs.
> 
> He wrestled Okami what like 3 years ago? So that means he is going to wrestle strong 205ers?


Ah, yes, I sometimes forget - Anderson allowed himself to be taken down. Just like in the first fight, where he set out to make a point and purposely waited until the last round to submit Sonnen :laugh:

I don't know where you're getting this idea that Henderson, Shogun, Machida, Wand, Vitor, Mousasi, and Franklin are all mastodons in comparison to Chael. All of those men are comparable in size to Marquardt and Okami. Vitor and Wand bounce back and forth between MW and LHW, several people have called for Machida to move down to MW, Shogun is a soft 205, and Franklin was MW champion. Not to mention, Chael is quite clearly putting on weight himself, so how undersized is he really going to be against the men I just listed? I'm guessing not at all.


----------



## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

*Chael Sonnen* vs Chris Weidman
*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen *vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
*Chael Sonnen *vs Forrest Griffin
*Chael Sonnen* vs Shogun
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo
*Chael Sonnen* vs Machida
Chael Sonnen vs *Bader*
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rashad
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
*Chael Sonnen *vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Canadian Psycho said:


> But in reality, what are Shogun and Wand going to do? Shogun hasn't shown us anything off of his back in years, nor has Wand. You expect me to believe that either man has a shot at submitting Chael? They'd likely be taken down at will and easily controlled by someone who wouldn't gas ala Dan Henderson.


The problem with Shogun is keeping him down, Jones is the only one who's managed to do it and even then a gassed out & beaten up Shogun was still able to get back up to his feet. Shogun doesn't submit people, but he's great at creating scrambles & transitions which allow him to get to his feet. Now I did note that Shogun's gas tank is lacking these days which is why I lean a bit towards Chael winning the fight, the problem is Shogun has the one shot power to turn a fight around real fast.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Ah, yes, I sometimes forget - Anderson allowed himself to be taken down. Just like in the first fight, where he set out to make a point and purposely waited until the last round to submit Sonnen :laugh:
> 
> I don't know where you're getting this idea that Henderson, Shogun, Machida, Wand, Vitor, Mousasi, and Franklin are all mastodons in comparison to Chael. All of those men are comparable in size to Marquardt and Okami. Vitor and Wand bounce back and forth between MW and LHW, several people have called for Machida to move down to MW, Shogun is a soft 205, and Franklin was MW champion. Not to mention, Chael is quite clearly putting on weight himself, so how undersized is he really going to be against the men I just listed? I'm guessing not at all.


Never said he let him take him down. I said he ran wildly into a TD. 2nd round when he didn't he stuffed them. If a weak grab of the shorts totally stopped Chael in his tracks....then that is fairly sad wouldn't you say?

Only guy I picked out of fandom over Chael was Wandy. But even Wandy could pull a triangle. Wandy has decent BJJ and Chael has awful BJJ defense. It is fact. 

They aren't all huge. Machida has a hell of a base and TDD. Good BJJ as well. Gustaf is a big 205er. Tex is big. Hendo, Rashad, Feijao are all stronger than Bisping at 185. Point is he couldn't keep Bisping down. He won't be able to keep these guys down. 

Chael hasn't Chaeled anyone in a couple of years. He is old. He won't be nearly as good at 205. The guys at 205 are much better than Bisping. 

People have been fooled by Chael. Sad thing is this dumb Bones fight will tell us nothing. Then he will retire. Then his fans will go on and on about how he could still beat most of the top 10 205ers. The only Chael that makes me believe he can evern get many of these guys down and keep them there is the Okami fight. And how long ago was that?:dunno: What weight class was that in?:dunno:

I hope he fights Machida, Tex, Gustaf, or Shogun. It will be funny.


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Never said he let him take him down. I said he ran wildly into a TD. 2nd round when he didn't he stuffed them. If a weak grab of the shorts totally stopped Chael in his tracks....then that is fairly sad wouldn't you say?


Silva was against the cage, had the shorts, etc. It was the perfect cocktail. That and wedgies hurt. 



> Only guy I picked out of fandom over Chael was Wandy. But even Wandy could pull a triangle. Wandy has decent BJJ and Chael has awful BJJ defense. It is fact.


Wand's last submission victory was 13 years ago, but okay. 



> They aren't all huge. Machida has a hell of a base and TDD. Good BJJ as well. Gustaf is a big 205er. Tex is big. Hendo, Rashad, Feijao are all stronger than Bisping at 185. Point is he couldn't keep Bisping down. He won't be able to keep these guys down.


I reiterate - he took Bisping down and kept him there for the entire third round. I know everyone likes to assume that a fighter can't have an off night or be a slow starter, but the following is a factual statement - Sonnen took Mike down early in the third, dominated him for five minutes, and finished the fight on top. This 'he couldn't take Mike down' malarkey is greatly overstated. 



> Chael hasn't Chaeled anyone in a couple of years. He is old. He won't be nearly as good at 205. The guys at 205 are much better than Bisping.


That's nice. Shogun is shot. Franklin is old and shot. Machida is timid. Wand is old and shot. Henderson is old and has nothing off of his back. Vitor is old and needed a referee to stop Anthony Johnson from smothering him. Whatever King Mo can do to Mousasi, Chael can do better. Evans is as mentally shot as he's ever been. 

Listen, I get that fighters like Tex and Gustaf are going to give Sonnen a hell of a time. I don't debate that. I'd even take Rashad over Sonnen if Evans came in like he did against Phil Davis. But you're referring to Chael as old in a division filled with old, past their prime fighters. Which is funny. Aren't you also the same guy who's ranted and raved about how weak and shot the LHW division currently is? 



> People have been fooled by Chael. Sad thing is this dumb Bones fight will tell us nothing. Then he will retire. Then his fans will go on and on about how he could still beat most of the top 10 205ers. The only Chael that makes me believe he can evern get many of these guys down and keep them there is the Okami fight. And how long ago was that?:dunno: What weight class was that in?:dunno:


Again, very few are saying that he'd go out and 'Sonnen' the likes of Glover, Gustaf, Jones, or even Phil Davis (for some reason absent from this list). But for me to sit here and say that Chael has a good chance against the likes of Shogun, Machida, Henderson, Franklin, Wand, and even someone like Little Nog (another strange absentee) is hardly unreasonable. These aren't fresh, young, muscle bound monsters we're talking about.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Wand's last submission victory was 13 years ago, but okay.


This is why I can't discuss things with you. You, I believe are smart enough to use logic. But you choose not too.

As if Wandy takes fights to the ground...ever. As if a lot of guys have taken him down. Stann no. Franklin no. Le no. Leban no. Bisping he almost had at the bell. Franklin again no. Page no. Jardine no. Liddell no. Hendo no. CC no. 

So what is that 11 of his last fights I ran through? And they were basically all stand up fights with neither guy having any interest in the ground aspect. But sure, I guess he should pull off some standing guillotines to prove he has some BJJ. 

Get out of here.


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

jonnyg4508 said:


> This is why I can't discuss things with you. You, I believe are smart enough to use logic. But you choose not too.
> 
> As if Wandy takes fights to the ground...ever. As if a lot of guys have taken him down. Stann no. Franklin no. Le no. Leban no. Bisping he almost had at the bell. Franklin again no. Page no. Jardine no. Liddell no. Hendo no. CC no.
> 
> ...


Ah, but you seem so confident in Wand's submission abilities. If he never goes to the ground, then how do we know he actually has submissions? Fun fact - Silva has had one submission victory his entire career. And yet you want me to believe that he's a legitimate threat to Chael's proven wrestling and top control. 

Chael vs. Wand would look worse than Cain vs. JDS II, imo. JDS's black belt didn't do much for him in that fight.


----------



## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Bisping took Wand down 5 times, Franklin once, Liddel twice, Hendo 3 times, Fujita once, Arona 7 times in 2 fights, Yoshida twice, Rampage twice in 3 fights. Wanderlei definitely has been taken down by a lot of guys. Sonnen would take him down, and destroy him.


----------



## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Chael vs. Wand would look worse than Cain vs. JDS II, imo. JDS's black belt didn't do much for him in that fight.


But Velasquez can deliver a punch, also on the ground.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Voiceless said:


> But Velasquez can deliver a punch, also on the ground.


I seem to recall Chael knocking Anderson on his butt 2-3 times in their first fight 

I still think all Sonnen would have to do is smother Wand on the ground. I do believe Silva would be useless off of his back.


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I seem to recall Chael knocking Anderson on his butt 2-3 times in their first fight
> 
> I still think all Sonnen would have to do is smother Wand on the ground. I do believe Silva would be useless off of his back.


It was really more once. Maybe one and a half.

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I seem to recall Chael knocking Anderson on his butt 2-3 times in their first fight


Yep, Sonnen's work of 300+ powerful punches










is really comparable to Velasquez'

























I agree that Sonnen would most probably wrestle smother Wanderlei Silva to a decision win, but it won't look anything close to Velasquez vs Dos Santos II.


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Anderson's black. Black people don't show bruises as easily. Fact.

Trust me, Anderson is actually a mess in that picture.


----------



## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Come on CP.
You know that's not true.
Sonnen clearly just trows "touches" not punches as it became obvious in TUF,
when he keeps calling for fighters to "Keep touching him", "Score, score"...


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Out of that list I can see him losing to Weidman, Machida, Gustafsson and maybe Rashad or Teixeira.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Anderson's black. Black people don't show bruises as easily. Fact.
> 
> Trust me, Anderson is actually a mess in that picture.


Yeah, right :thumb02:


----------



## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

I think those guys just have some asian ancestry.


----------



## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

Who the Christ is the guy on the left?
Holy shit.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

*Chael Sonnen* vs Chris Weidman
Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonne*n vs Costas Philippou
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
Chael Sonnen vs *Shogun*
Chael Sonnen vs *Hendo*
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
*Chael Sonnen* vs Gustafsson
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
Chael Sonnen vs *Rashad* 
*Chael Sonnen* vs Glover
*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin


----------



## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

Can one or two of the guys who think Bader beats Sonnen explain why?


----------



## TheAuger (Jun 30, 2011)

Shady1 said:


> Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
> *Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
> *Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
> Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
> ...


^^This minus Jacare.


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Weidman hype is getting so ridiculous at this point. Can't wait for Silva to smash him and remind you all he is second tier. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Chris Weidman
Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
*Chael Sonnen* vs Jacare
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen *vs Costas Philippou
Chael Sonnen vs *Forrest Griffin*
Chael Sonnen vs *Shogun*
Chael Sonnen vs *Hendo*
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
Chael Sonnen vs *Rashad*
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin


----------



## the ultimate (Mar 5, 2007)

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
*Chael Sonnen *vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
*Chael Sonnen* vs Shogun
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
Chael Sonnen vs *Rashad*
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

How does Weidman beat Sonnen?


----------



## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

I don't know how anyone can possibly not rate Weidman, what has he done to prove himself to be anything other than immensely talented? Smashed Munoz, dominated Lawlor, dominated Maia on 2 weeks notice, he's never been in trouble once, and has walked through everyone he faced, especially when he's had a full camp. Weidman has looked fantastic. His wrestling is excellent, his Jiu Jitsu is high level, and his stand-up improves every time he gets in the octagon. When has he ever proven himself to be anything close to second tier? He's the biggest threat to Anderson's belt, by far. He might not beat Anderson, but, that doesn't mean he's a second tier fighter. If he fails to beat Anderson on this occasion, he'll be the belt holder when Anderson retires.


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

I don't think he has been tested. I would have liked to see him fight Chael, Okami, or Bisping before he got his shot.

Anyways you may be right that he has never looked second tier. I suppose I misspoke. What I mean is that Anderson Silva will once again show he is a level above everyone else in the division by making short work of Weidman.


----------



## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

He took out Maia on 2 weeks notice, and looked really good doing it. I'd say that's pretty impressive, and smashing Munoz the way he did was very impressive. He probably should have fought Bisping, or Belfort, or Okami, but I'm happy to see him get the shot. He's the Rory MacDonald of 185, so glad one of the 2 is getting a title shot soon!

Anderson being a level above someone doesn't make that someone second tier. Anderson's on a whole other Matrix level that only Jon Jones is anywhere close to. Weidman being another victim of the Anderson Silva matrix train would not make him a second tier fighter. Maybe we've got difference definitions of second tier.


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> He took out Maia on 2 weeks notice, and looked really good doing it. I'd say that's pretty impressive, and smashing Munoz the way he did was very impressive. He probably should have fought Bisping, or Belfort, or Okami, but I'm happy to see him get the shot. He's the Rory MacDonald of 185, so glad one of the 2 is getting a title shot soon!
> 
> Anderson being a level above someone doesn't make that someone second tier. Anderson's on a whole other Matrix level that only Jon Jones is anywhere close to. Weidman being another victim of the Anderson Silva matrix train would not make him a second tier fighter. Maybe we've got difference definitions of second tier.


Weidman definitely did not look good against Maia. He looked good for cutting 40lbs in two weeks but he gassed badly and it was a sloppy kick boxing match.

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## halifaxdonair (Aug 27, 2011)

*Chael Sonnen* vs Chris Weidman
Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
*Chael Sonnen* vs Jacare
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
*Chael Sonnen* vs Shogun
Chael Sonnen vs *Hendo*
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rashad
*Chael Sonnen* vs Glover
*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin

i think i am over rating Sonnen a bit.


----------



## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

Stun Gun said:


> Can one or two of the guys who think Bader beats Sonnen explain why?


I picked Bader because I think he would stuff the takedowns and beat Sonnen up on the feet. As much as I like Sonnen, his stand up is terrible. He just doesn't have any power. He rocked Silva but that's it IIRC. When you face a fighter with good TDD like Bader, you need them to respect your hands. Otherwise your takedowns are too predictable. I think Bader would actually get a few takedowns of his own, but the fight wouldn't stay there for long.

Bader would avoid Sonnen's wrestling while landing the harder shots. He'd coast his way to a boring/lackluster win.


----------



## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

AlphaDawg said:


> I picked Bader because I think he would stuff the takedowns and beat Sonnen up on the feet. As much as I like Sonnen, his stand up is terrible. He just doesn't have any power. He rocked Silva but that's it IIRC. When you face a fighter with good TDD like Bader, you need them to respect your hands. Otherwise your takedowns are too predictable. I think Bader would actually get a few takedowns of his own, but the fight wouldn't stay there for long.
> 
> Bader would avoid Sonnen's wrestling while landing the harder shots. He'd coast his way to a boring/lackluster win.


Good points, I was thinking that everyone was overlooking Bader, but I'm a big Bader fan so I wanted to see others opinion to make sure I wasn't being too biased lol 

I think it could be a fun fight though


----------



## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

I think it's hilarious some people think Wanderlei would beat Sonnen.


----------



## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

Sonnen is a god amongst men and he would beat everyone... except Hendo, he is a bigger god.


----------



## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

AmdM said:


> Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
> Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
> Chael Sonnen vs *Hector Lombard*
> Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
> ...


Lolz! This is indeed a funny thread for me. Chael is simply Chael. He's a decent fighter who puts on a show and makes people believe in him. There's a good chance he'll beat strikers who lack any sort of grappling background, but others' he'll run into difficulties. 

Unless he pulls an upset I think Chael is already preparing for a future career in commentating which he actually is pretty good at.


----------



## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

OU said:


> I made this thread on another forum and the results were very mixed. It amazes me the varying views on Chael.
> 
> Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
> Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
> ...



I agree That Sonnen is THE most overrated fighter ever, simply because of his mouth. People are actually dumb enough to buy into his BS. I think he beats mid-tiers and over the hill fighters. The rest he loses against.

His best win is an extremely close decision over Bisping, who many thought he lost. Other than that his best wins are Marquardt & Okami. Marquardt has the fighting IQ of Martin Kampmann & lost that fight mostly due to horrible gameplanning & Okami is mentally weak & folds under pressure, wich happens to be the strength of Sonnen.

The first Silva fight was a fluke as we clearly saw in the second fight & even then he lost & got finished.

He had a little run now and got alot of fans by simply being a corny cheeseball wrassling actor.

Also the fact that before he started TRT he used to be a timid, passive laynpray. Then he gets some testosteron and now he's adopted a totally new style of pressure-wrestling with this spastic pitterpatter groundNslap.

He's the definition of overrated. I totally agree with OP.


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

No_Mercy said:


> Lolz! This is indeed a funny thread for me. Chael is simply Chael. He's a decent fighter who puts on a show and makes people believe in him. There's a good chance he'll beat strikers who lack any sort of grappling background, but others' he'll run into difficulties.
> 
> Unless he pulls an upset I think Chael is already preparing for a future career in commentating which he actually is pretty good at.


I agree. I'm willing to bet that Chael fully intends for UFC 159 to be his swan song. 

It's a shame Jon Jones is going to mess up those plans by losing the fight.


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

mmaswe82 said:


> I agree That Sonnen is THE most overrated fighter ever, simply because of his mouth. People are actually dumb enough to buy into his BS. I think he beats mid-tiers and over the hill fighters. The rest he loses against.


Oh, man, how cool are you. To be able to dismiss others as 'dumb' purely because they don't share in your point of view. I'm in awe of your gargantuan, presumably American penis!

In all seriousness, I don't see why someone has to be 'dumb' to believe that Chael Sonnen is a good fighter who could beat certain names on this list - not all, mind you. I actually find the notion a tad insulting.


----------



## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Going into my picks.

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman* - Not to say Weidman isn't over-rated and a product of hype, but he's a giant wrestler who's good at chokes and Sonnen doesn't know how to properly defend such things, so Weidman. I think Chris might actually be better at beating Sonnen than Jones because he can just move forward, stuff a takedown and slip those giant arms in for a D'arce in under a minute.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort - Personally for me this is the best fight Chael can win. I love Vitor but you can wrestle him and Sonnen's chin is quality so I give him this one.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard - Chael's just a better version of Okami and he can just lift him up and lay and pray or pitter patter on him.

Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare* - Jacare subs him in under two minutes.

Chael Sonnen vs *Luke Rockhold* - Surprised to see so few are taking Rockhold in this. Luke is basically Babalu 2.0 and Chael won't be able handle a guy that can out scrap him.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei - Wanderlei is making his comeback, but unless his gaurd's improved I believe Chael wins a very entertaining five round fight.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou - This really depends on when these guys fight. Costas is getting better and Chael's getting older, but if they fought today I give the slight edge to Sonnen.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin - He'll finally get his TKO/KO since he fought Kyacey Uscola is 2007.

Chael Sonnen vs *Shogun* - This is tricky because both guys are on the downside of their careers and "motivated Shogun" can defeat anyone in the UFC 205 division.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo - Hopefully this will be both guys final fight. I think Chael might have a cardio and wrestling advantage over Hendo right now, so I go with him.

Chael Sonnen vs *Machida* - I believe if they fought Machida would make Chael look horrible.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader - It comes down to standup and while Chael doesn't have Bader's power he also doesn't have his chin, Chael wins.

Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson* - I see a repeat of the Te'Huna fight with Gustaf just waiting till the last minute in the first round to sink in the RNC and finish the fight.

Chael Sonnen vs *Mousasi* - Tough call, Chael could conceivably just grind the hell out of Mousasi, I mean Keith Jardine took him down five times in a round. But I feel like Mousasi has a huge BJJ advantage and Chael gets choked again.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao - Feijao is sort of a mini-Shogun, you don't know which one shows up, I believe Chael can beat him.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Rashad - I believe Rashad's already quit on MMA.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Glover - This is my upset pick, I believe Glover can finish him in three minutes, but I also think Glover can gas out and Chael can take advantage.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna - Basically the LHW version of Costa, he's going to pass Chael at some point but right now I would give the edge to Sonnen...barely.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill - I wouldn't sleep on Hamill, he's capable of surprising you and having good nights but...Chael wins.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin - I think Rich has entered the Chuck Liddell, lights go out portion of his career.

And going in order of how I think the fights would go from the worst beating/loss to the best win

<beating>
1. Machida
2. Weidman
3. Jacare
4. Gustafsson
5. Rockhold
6. Shogun
7. Mousasi
<close fights>
8. Costas Philippou
9. Hendo
10. Te'Huna
11. Glover
<questionable>
12. Evans
13. Silva
14. Feijao
<easy wins>
15. Belfort
16. Bader
17. Hamill
18. Lombard
19. Griffin
20. Franklin
<career enders>


----------



## dsmjrv (Jan 27, 2010)

i like sonnen, but after seeing him fight bisping i cant see him stopping any top 5 fighter.. he can beat most of them on points on his best night but he isnt going to finish anyone.. lets just be real here and say he has the wrestling to beat anyone point for point, but against guys like Silva and JBJ he will probably get finished..


----------



## JWP (Jun 4, 2007)

*Chael Sonnen* vs Chris Weidman
*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
*Chael Sonnen* vs Jacare
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
Chael Sonnen vs *Costas Philippou*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
*Chael Sonnen* vs Shogun
Chael Sonnen vs *Hendo*
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
Chael Sonnen vs *Mousasi*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
Chael Sonnen vs *Rashad*
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
Chael Sonnen vs *Te Huna*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
Chael Sonnen vs *Rich Franklin*


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## xxpillowxxjp (Aug 23, 2010)

Chael Sonnen vs Chris Weidman x
Chael Sonnen vs Vitor Belfort x
x Chael Sonnen vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs Jacare x
x Chael Sonnen vs Luke Rockhold
x Chael Sonnen vs Wanderlei
x Chael Sonnen vs Costas Philippou
x Chael Sonnen vs Forrest Griffin
x Chael Sonnen vs Shogun
x Chael Sonnen vs Hendo
Chael Sonnen vs Machida x
x Chael Sonnen vs Bader
x Chael Sonnen vs Gustafsson
x Chael Sonnen vs Mousasi
x Chael Sonnen vs Feijao
x Chael Sonnen vs Rashad
x Chael Sonnen vs Glover
x Chael Sonnen vs Te Huna
x Chael Sonnen vs Matt Hamill 
x Chael Sonnen vs Rich Franklin

some of you amaze me


----------



## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Sonnen beats them all at the same time if he feels like it.


----------



## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I'm in awe of your gargantuan, presumably American penis!


Swedish.


----------



## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Oh, man, how cool are you. To be able to dismiss others as 'dumb' purely because they don't share in your point of view. I'm in awe of your gargantuan, presumably American penis!
> 
> In all seriousness, *I don't see why someone has to be 'dumb' to believe that Chael Sonnen is a good fighter who could beat certain names on this list* - not all, mind you. I actually find the notion a tad insulting.


No not really at all, I mean if we knew who could beat who then what would be the point of this forum. I think however Sonnen and the way he talks random retarded rubbish tends to turn dumber people on alot because they can relate to his childish rants. There are ofcourse exceptions, like yourself. I think that you are an intelligent person and a solid poster when it comes to anything other than Sonnen, hence the +reps I give you at times.

What people like you could enjoy about the showman side of Sonnen baffles me. Same goes for some other posters on this forum who are overall cool, intelligent people. Perhaps you can claim you only like him as a fighter, wich could be true but I doubt it. 

I still think alot of the reason Sonnen is overrated is because dumb people listen to him talk, if he was a quite guy I think he would be rated around something like a Stephan Bonnar type fighter. 

No person is dumb because they think Sonnen or any fighter can beat another fighter at a certain point. But the hype of Sonnen as some unstoppable force to me is just riddiculous & is spawned from him talking himself up, his wrestling is overrated as is the rest of his game IMO ofcourse.



hellholming said:


> Swedish.


Yes exactly. Thank you


----------



## El Bresko (Mar 12, 2010)

Chael Sonnen vs Chris Weidman - 

can't call this one, it really comes down to whoever has the better wrestling, I feel like Weidman's timing is impeccable but Sonnen has that ability to just bullrush and drag people to the ground. This is probably the hardest fight to call out of the list.

Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort* -

I think Vitor would beat Chael, my guess would be submission off of his back or a flash KO. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard -

Chael beats Hector via UD, TD, control and GnP, rinse and repeat for 3 rounds.

Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare* -

Jacare wins by submission. Chael is a worse grappler and a worse striker. This is a nightmare matchup for him.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold -

Chael bullies Rockhold like he did Stann but without the finish. Rockhold looks like a fish out of water.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei -

Chael completely outgrapples Wanderlei but gets clipped and dropped at some point during the fight. Chael UD.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou -
Chael via UD, Costa cannot stuff the TD and he cannot submit Chael from his back. Chances for 10-8 rounds in this fight.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin -

Chael avenges the loss in a similar fight but it has been a long time and Chael has really worked on his jiujitsu game. Chael UD.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Shogun -

Chael and Shogun have an epic battle with Shogun hurting Chael in R1 and reversing him on the ground with a leg lock attempt, Chael's cardio takes over and Shogun loses a close decision.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo -

Credentials aside, Hendo's wrestling is not what it was when he was a younger man, Chael's is still very, very good. Chael drags Dan to the ground and avoids the H-Bomb for 3 rounds. Chael UD.

Chael Sonnen vs *Machida* -

Lyoto stuffs the TD and KOs Chael.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader -

Chael beats Bader by being better everywhere, although I could see this being similar to Mike Pierce V Josh Koscheck or Mike Pierce V Johny Hendricks with Bader being Pierce in both situations.. Another UD for Chael.

Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson* -

The goose puts Chael to sleep in a fight reminiscent of Hamill V Gustaf. 

Chael Sonnen vs *Mousasi*

Moose outclasses Chael in almost every aspect, he cannot stuff the TD but he hurts Chael badly on the ground and finishes him on the feet.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao -

Feijao is strong but he hasn't fought in a very long time and would undoubtedly be suffering from ring rust, I think Chael UDs him.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Rashad -

Similar to Weidman V Chael. I really don't know. Chael probably edges it and might even be bigger than Rashad on fight night. 

Chael Sonnen vs *Glover* -

I think Glover hurts Chael badly, he might not finish him but Chael will take a lot of damage.

Chael Sonnen vs *Te Huna* -

Te Huna stuffs the TD and outboxes Chael, he has very heavy hands so there is a good possibility of a finish. 

*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill -

Similar to the Bader fight, Chael is a better fighter than Hamill and it would be obvious if they ever fought.

*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin -

Rich has dealt well with wrestlers before, but I don't think he could beat Okami if they ever fought again and I don't think he'd beat Chael either. Very good fight, but Chael pulls out the UD yet again.


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
*Chael Sonnen* vs Shogun
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo
*Chael Sonnen* vs Machida
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rashad
*Chael Sonnen* vs Glover
Chael Sonnen vs *Te Huna*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin


----------



## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

UFC_OWNS said:


> Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
> *Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
> *Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
> Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
> ...


Soon as I saw you had posted I knew you'd have Chael winning the majority but Te Huna beating him :thumb02:

*Chael Sonnen *vs Chris Weidman
Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen *vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
*Chael Sonnen* vs Forrest Griffin
Chael Sonnen vs *Shogun*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hendo
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
*Chael Sonnen *vs Feijao
Chael Sonnen vs *Rashad*
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

K R Y said:


> Soon as I saw you had posted I knew you'd have Chael winning the majority but Te Huna beating him :thumb02:
> 
> *Chael Sonnen *vs Chris Weidman
> Chael Sonnen vs *Vitor Belfort*
> ...


heh of course and te huna is pretty dang good and you will all see that come ufc 160 i think it is along woth marku hunts KO of JDS im baffled to see people taking rashad over chael especially after how bad he has looked since the davis fight and arguably parts of the ortiz rematch. And same for slowgun


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Chael Sonnen would beat Mark Hunt. 

:confused04:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Chael Sonnen would beat Mark Hunt.
> 
> :confused04:


Mark Hunt would eat GSP :bye02::bye02::bye02::bye02::bye02:


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Anderson's black. Black people don't show bruises as easily. Fact.
> 
> Trust me, Anderson is actually a mess in that picture.


Laugh out loud....what a joke.

:thumb03: Yea right skippy. 

Just like all that damage Sonnen did in the first of the 2nd fight. He got on top and humped and hammer fisted him like a girl.


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

girls don't hump...


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

hellholming said:


> girls don't hump...


Excuse me...rode and hammerfisted him.

He got full mount and did close to nothing with it.


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

maybe he had a gassy stomach.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Laugh out loud....what a joke.
> 
> :thumb03: Yea right skippy.
> 
> Just like all that damage Sonnen did in the first of the 2nd fight. He got on top and humped and hammer fisted him like a girl.


You're just mad because your lord and saviour had to grease and grab Sonnen's shorts to have a shot at winning. 

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm exiling myself from this thread before OU returns and gets mad at me.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> You're just mad because your lord and saviour had to grease and grab Sonnen's shorts to have a shot at winning.
> 
> Now if you'll excuse me, I'm exiling myself from this thread before OU returns and gets mad at me.


Sonnen hasn't ever beat anyone that good. Perhaps Okami...who is as predictable as the sun. Okami is decent, Sonnen was just a better wrestler.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

That's bullshit and you know it. He's beaten Okami, who, until then, was on a tear, only being beaten by Rich Franklin in 10 fights. He beat Marquardt who sure, has dipped in recent years, but in 2010 was one of the best fighters in the division, coming off 3 finishes over Kampmann, Gouveia and Maia. He beat Bisping who as much as people like to dismiss it, is a top fighter, and he was the first man to dominate and finish Brian Stann at middleweight. He also stopped 11-1 Dan Miller in his tracks, who at the time was 3-0 in the UFC. Sonnen is a top fighter, who deserved both his title fights at 185, and has given Anderson Silva the worst time of anyone in the UFC. He doesn't deserve the shot at Jones, but, I'll watch it, and I give Sonnen a better chance at beating Jones than Gustafsson. I'm glad he's getting the shot.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> That's bullshit and you know it. He's beaten Okami, who, until then, was on a tear, only being beaten by Rich Franklin in 10 fights. He beat Marquardt who sure, has dipped in recent years, but in 2010 was one of the best fighters in the division, coming off 3 finishes over Kampmann, Gouveia and Maia. He beat Bisping who as much as people like to dismiss it, is a top fighter, and he was the first man to dominate and finish Brian Stann at middleweight. He also stopped 11-1 Dan Miller in his tracks, who at the time was 3-0 in the UFC. Sonnen is a top fighter, who deserved both his title fights at 185, and has given Anderson Silva the worst time of anyone in the UFC. He doesn't deserve the shot at Jones, but, I'll watch it, and I give Sonnen a better chance at beating Jones than Gustafsson. I'm glad he's getting the shot.


Don't bother dude sonnen haters are set in there ways and they sicken me because of that


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

Chael Sonnen vs *BJ Penn*

Yes.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

K R Y said:


> Chael Sonnen vs *BJ Penn*
> 
> Yes.


liar whore liar whore


----------



## RWCNT (Dec 16, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> That's bullshit and you know it. He's beaten Okami, who, until then, was on a tear, only being beaten by Rich Franklin in 10 fights. He beat Marquardt who sure, has dipped in recent years, but in 2010 was one of the best fighters in the division, coming off 3 finishes over Kampmann, Gouveia and Maia. He beat Bisping who as much as people like to dismiss it, is a top fighter, and he was the first man to dominate and finish Brian Stann at middleweight. He also stopped 11-1 Dan Miller in his tracks, who at the time was 3-0 in the UFC. Sonnen is a top fighter, who deserved both his title fights at 185, and has given Anderson Silva the worst time of anyone in the UFC. He doesn't deserve the shot at Jones, but, I'll watch it, and I give Sonnen a better chance at beating Jones than Gustafsson. I'm glad he's getting the shot.


Well said, it's an annoyingly common train of thought to rubbish a fighter's competition to imply they're somehow terrible, I saw someone do it in a thread on GSP last week. According to some people there are basically no accomplished MMA fighters outside of the top 3 p4p.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Chael Sonnen vs Machida
Chael Sonnen vs Gustafsson
Chael Sonnen vs Rashad
Chael Sonnen vs Glover

There are the only four fights where I can see Sonnen losing. I think Machida would absolutely destroy Sonnen, Gusta and glover is a toss up will have to see them fight some more. Depending on which Evans shows up this fight is interesting.


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## JWP (Jun 4, 2007)

UFC_OWNS said:


> Don't bother dude sonnen haters are set in there ways and they sicken me because of that



not entirely true. i used to be a sonnen hater and then i changed 

anderson is my man though so sometimes these threads hurt my head

like i heard the term hail-mary submission referring to their 1st fight. kind of hard to accept, its not like throwing a lucky punch

in my book if you want to call it a hail-mary sub you cant complain about the shorts grabbing 

anyway i can never tell if canadian psycho and lyoto legion are being sarcastic or not, hence the head hurt


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

JWP said:


> not entirely true. i used to be a sonnen hater and then i changed
> 
> anderson is my man though so sometimes these threads hurt my head
> 
> ...


I was more referring to people picking against chael every fight and calling him crap and a bad person when none of that is true its good that you and marcthegame and a few others get it though


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Sonnen's biggest win is Okami. lol
His biggest asset it's his mouth and in my book that doesn't make for a good martial artist. Other than that he's just a lay and pray guy, who likes to "keep touching" people so his stupid fans can say he throws hundreds of "punches" per fight.
He's getting his arse owned by he LW's if he decides to not retire after what Jones is gonna do with him.


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## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

Say want you want about Sonnen, At least he has sense enough not to drink his own piss...:drink01::drink01:


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## El Bresko (Mar 12, 2010)

locnott said:


> Say want you want about Sonnen, At least he has sense enough not to drink his own piss...:drink01::drink01:


Hey man.. without the piss drinking, who knows where the Machida family would be?


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

El Bresko said:


> Hey man.. without the piss drinking, who knows where the Machida family would be?


probably better off in the public eye.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

RWCNT said:


> Well said, it's an annoyingly common train of thought to rubbish a fighter's competition to imply they're somehow terrible, I saw someone do it in a thread on GSP last week. According to some people there are basically no accomplished MMA fighters outside of the top 3 p4p.


Pretty much. You can dismiss anyone as shit if you try hard enough. Lets take Anderson Silva:

*Chris Leben*: Sucks, nothing but a brawler
*Rich Franklin*: Meh, not that good, arguably lost to Wanderlei, and was getting smashed by Chuck. Never that great.
*Travis Lutter*: Never a top fighter, still managed to get to Mount against Anderson
*Nate Marquardt*: Much like Sonnen's win over him, not that impressive, dude lost to Yushin Okami who also apparently sucks.
*Dan Henderson*: Only good on TRT, lost to a welterweight, and lost to Rampage
*James Irvin*: Rubbish.
*Patrick Cote*: Lost to Cung Le, Tom Lawlor and Alan Belcher since, none of those are Top 3, so Cote sucks too.
*Thales Leites*: Sucks. Lost to Sakara and Horwich since. Rubbish fighter.
*Forrest Griffin*: Embarrassing fight, proved that Griffin was a lucky champion, never that good.
*Demian Maia*: Awful fighter, had to cut weight to escape the division, lost to Weidman coming in on 2 weeks notice.
*Chael Sonnen*: Check this thread, sucks.
*Vitor Belfort*: Never that good, TRT, shit fighter.
*Yushin Okami:* Even lost to Chael Sonnen, terrible
*Stephan Bonnar*: Lost to Griffin, steroids, never been Top 5. 

Anderson Silva sucks as a fighter, and has never beaten anyone good. See how easy it is to be a ****?


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

http://www.fightline.com/fl/news/2013/0329/554425/cain-velasquez/

Cain knows.


----------



## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

Ou must have given up


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Stun Gun said:


> Ou must have given up


Yeah I might just throw in the towel altogether. Not feeling it lately.


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## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

OU said:


> Yeah I might just throw in the towel altogether. Not feeling it lately.


Don't throw in the towel man. Just because some people have resorted to name calling and petulant shit like that. You made some good points and I just wish I was on here the past few days. I took like 5 days off or something. 

I honestly think its f'n ridiculous that some people on here feel they need to act like a child and call names just because other people have different opinions. Calling OU stupid is f'n crazy. He's a knowledgable member who ALWAYS contributes. This has annoyed me.


----------



## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Tyson Fury said:


> Don't throw in the towel man. Just because some people have resorted to name calling and petulant shit like that. You made some good points and I just wish I was on here the past few days. I took like 5 days off or something.
> 
> I honestly think its f'n ridiculous that some people on here feel they need to act like a child and call names just because other people have different opinions. Calling OU stupid is f'n crazy. He's a knowledgable member who ALWAYS contributes. This has annoyed me.


I did my share, I don't think anyone really crossed the line or anything. You have the "haters" who haven't seen anything that would make them think Chael is near as good of a fighter as his "fanboys" would like to believe. So it's just one extreme vs the other. Fanboys picking him to win fights that I can't imagine he would even be competitve in. But that makes me a "hater" because other then his mouth I don't find much to be impressed about with Chael. I think his wrestling is being massively overrated as well as his cardio and strength. But whatever, like many others have pointed out we will likely never know since Chael is likely to retire after Bones beats the breaks off him.


----------



## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

OU said:


> I did my share, I don't think anyone really crossed the line or anything. You have the "haters" who haven't seen anything that would make them think Chael is near as good of a fighter as his "fanboys" would like to believe. So it's just one extreme vs the other. Fanboys picking him to win fights that I can't imagine he would even be competitve in. But that makes me a "hater" because other then his mouth I don't find much to be impressed about with Chael. I think his wrestling is being massively overrated as well as his cardio and strength. But whatever, like many others have pointed out we will likely never know since Chael is likely to retire after Bones beats the breaks off him.


I don't know about Sonnen retiring but I'm 100% with you that Bones will smash him. Easy. I'm the fan boy of only one dude. Wandy. But I'm no 'hater' of any fighter. I'm not that myopic. I can't see Sonnen winning at all. I aslo agree he's overrated. Okami was a decent win but not impressive. I was impressed with the way he fought Anderson the first time but thats pretty much it. Winning a close decision against Bisping isn't impressive for a guy who's supposed to be a top contender. Neither is the win against Brain Stann. Who is almost as overrated than Sonnen. The win against Marquadt doesn't count in my eyes because Nate sucks. Never rated him.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

sonnen by decision or arm triangle


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## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> sonnen by decision or arm triangle


Lol, you wanna sig bet? I win. You gotta have a Man Utd sig for a month. I'd do the same with Chelsea if a miracle happens. :wink01:


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Tyson Fury said:


> Lol, you wanna sig bet? I win. You gotta have a Man Utd sig for a month. I'd do the same with Chelsea if a miracle happens. :wink01:


sorry nothing will bring my patrice sig down, ill cred bet you though hehe i want 6 to 1 odds though


----------



## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Tyson Fury said:


> Lol, you wanna sig bet? I win. You gotta have a Man Utd sig for a month. I'd do the same with Chelsea if a miracle happens. :wink01:


Sonnen fanboys are really just trolling, they know damn well there boy isn't that talented of a fighter and would never take any bet without very good odds in their favor. I'll take 10 to 1 odds though since I know Sonnen won't be competitive in this fight.

But LOL look at his credits, he isn't taking any risk at all since he knows damn well Sonnen isn't that good.


----------



## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> sorry nothing will bring my patrice sig down, ill cred bet you though hehe i want 6 to 1 odds though


Awww, spoil sport. I've never had a sig bet here before. I wanted the first one to be special. 6-1 eh? How would the cred bet work? I'm not a betting man unless its poker. 




OU said:


> Sonnen fanboys are really just trolling, they know damn well there boy isn't that talented of a fighter and would never take any bet without very good odds in their favor. I'll take 10 to 1 odds though since I know Sonnen won't be competitive in this fight.
> 
> But LOL look at his credits, he isn't taking any risk at all since he knows damn well Sonnen isn't that good.


Haha, yeah its all abit of fun. I just wanted him to admit his admiration for the great Man Utd. (A european thing) :thumb03:


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

oh you dont have enough creds well lets just say the loser has eat a flaming bag of african aids except if i lose i don't have to do it heh


----------



## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> oh you dont have enough creds well lets just say the loser has eat a flaming bag of african aids except if i lose i don't have to do it heh


Your on!!!!


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

heh admin status reachieved


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

UFC_OWNS said:


> oh you dont have enough creds well lets just say the loser has eat a flaming bag of african aids except if i lose i don't have to do it heh


Translation: You don't want to make any kind of real wager since you know Chael's chances in this fight are extremely slim. You have insane credits yet you want 6 to 1 odds and you don't want to put your Patrice sig to the side for even 1 week? It's not like it's gone for good when you lose.
You are proving that you have no faith in Chael and want no part of any real wager. So you are willing to bet, what 1 million of your 97? Yeah...way to show your faith in your boy lol


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

OU said:


> Translation: You don't want to make any kind of real wager since you know Chael's chances in this fight are extremely slim. You have insane credits yet you want 6 to 1 odds and you don't want to put your Patrice sig to the side for even 1 week? It's not like it's gone for good when you lose.
> You are proving that you have no faith in Chael and want no part of any real wager. So you are willing to bet, what 1 million of your 97? Yeah...way to show your faith in your boy lol


he said 1 month not a week


----------



## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

UFC_OWNS said:


> he said 1 month not a week


I'll say 1 week. If you are still too scared how about 1 day?


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

no im not betting with you, me and tyson will figure something out probably


----------



## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

UFC_OWNS said:


> no im not betting with you, me and tyson will figure something out probably


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Yeah, because losing to Jones will mean that Sonnen was never a good fighter. Machida, Shogun, Rampage, Vitor, and Evans - in reality, they all just suck :sarcastic09:

Losing to Jones is almost as bad as losing to Anderson. Only cans gets beaten by those two.


----------



## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Yeah, because losing to Jones will mean that Sonnen was never a good fighter. Machida, Shogun, Rampage, Vitor, and Evans - in reality, they all just suck :sarcastic09:
> 
> Losing to Jones is almost as bad as losing to Anderson. Only cans gets beaten by those two.


I never implied that losing to Jones would mean Chael was never good. I'm saying before the fight I don't think he is near as good as most of you seem to think. 
You will go into this fight with at win/win. If he gets dominated then so what? Jones is running through just about everyone. If he lands a couple take downs then you beat your chest like he accomplished something. 
My current view on Chael has nothing to do with me thinking he is totally outclassed by Jones. 
I can only hope he doesn't retire after the loss so we can see him potentially fight someone on the list in the OP. 

I never discredited Anderson, just Chael. Because IMO you are the one looking at this from a biased view. But that's just how I see it. I think your view is far more extreme then mine and much further from reality . That's just how I feel.


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

We've been over this. I am able to list a handful of fighters at LHW, and even some at MW, who would give Sonnen fits if not outright defeat him. You, however, seem to think that Sonnen would lose to everyone, and you fly off at the handle whenever someone suggests that he might actually be a good fighter. If anything, you've demonstrated more bias than I have.

The fact that you went off on everyone who bolded Chael in this thread - many of whom aren't even Sonnen fans - is proof that you're the one not looking at this thing through clear eyes. You don't like Chael and think he's overrated... great... that doesn't mean you're right. 

Sonnen is a good fighter. Very few, even his fans, would use the term great. There is a difference. Dismissing his wins because Okami is 'mentally weak' and Nate Marquardt has since gone to WW is a pointless endeavour. Are you also willing to deny Anderson Silva his victories over those men?


----------



## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> We've been over this. I am able to list a handful of fighters at LHW, and even some at MW, who would give Sonnen fits if not outright defeat him. You, however, seem to think that Sonnen would lose to everyone, and you fly off at the handle whenever someone suggests that he might actually be a good fighter. If anything, you've demonstrated more bias than I have.
> 
> The fact that you went off on everyone who bolded Chael in this thread - many of whom aren't even Sonnen fans - is proof that you're the one not looking at this thing through clear eyes. You don't like Chael and think he's overrated... great... that doesn't mean you're right.
> 
> Sonnen is a good fighter. Very few, even his fans, would use the term great. There is a difference.


Funny I seem to remember you and other Chael fans calling out me and other posters for picking against Chael in specific fights. But when I do it I'm "flying off the handle"? You called me out for picking Dan Henderson to beat him. Dan Henderson. You thought it was crazy that I suggested Dan ******* Henderson would beat Chael Sonnen. 
But you are looking at it through clear eyes? Picking a man that barely scrapped by Bisping and got rolled up by Maia to beat almost every single top 10 LHW in the World. Chael Sonnen has done absolutely nothing to suggest that would be the likely outcome. He has never beat anyone that is even close to being ranked at LHW yet you think he beats just about everyone in the division? Based on what?

You picked him to win as many I picked him to lose yet I'm biased and you aren't? Get real man.


----------



## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> We've been over this. *I am able to list a handful of fighters at LHW, and even some at MW, who would give Sonnen fits if not outright defeat him.* You, however, seem to think that Sonnen would lose to everyone, and you fly off at the handle whenever someone suggests that he might actually be a good fighter. If anything, you've demonstrated more bias than I have.
> 
> The fact that you went off on everyone who bolded Chael in this thread - many of whom aren't even Sonnen fans - is proof that you're the one not looking at this thing through clear eyes. You don't like Chael and think he's overrated... great... that doesn't mean you're right.
> 
> *Sonnen is a good fighter. Very few, even his fans, would use the term great. There is a difference*. Dismissing his wins because Okami is 'mentally weak' and Nate Marquardt has since gone to WW is a pointless endeavour. Are you also willing to deny Anderson Silva his victories over those men?


Very well put. Good fighter, not great. Funny, I was readin Fighters Only magazine and Sonnen says the best 2 in the world right now are, aside from himself, GSP and Bones. Interesting. I'm not 100% sure Sonnen thinks he'll beat Bones. He obviously believes he has a chance though.


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

OU said:


> Funny I seem to remember you and other Chael fans calling out me and other posters for picking against Chael in specific fights. But when I do it I'm "flying off the handle"? You called me out for picking Dan Henderson to beat him. Dan Henderson. You thought it was crazy that I suggested Dan ******* Henderson would beat Chael Sonnen.
> But you are looking at it through clear eyes? Picking a man that barely scrapped by Bisping and got rolled up by Maia to beat almost every single top 10 LHW in the World. Chael Sonnen has done absolutely nothing to suggest that would be the likely outcome. He has never beat anyone that is even close to being ranked at LHW yet you think he beats just about everyone in the division? Based on what?
> 
> You picked him to win as many I picked him to lose yet I'm biased and you aren't? Get real man.


This is what I'm talking about. You're getting all riled up again. I didn't 'call you out' on your picks. Anyone who wishes to read back through this thread will see that you jumped on everyone who chose Sonnen over Henderson, and I simply responded that it's not impossible that Sonnen could take down and control Dan for 3 rounds. No where did I call you crazy. In fact, I'm positive it was the other way around. When you make the claim that Sonnen would likely get destroyed by Henderson, and I respond with, 'Well, Jake Shields managed to take Dan down and control him for four rounds, so it's not impossible that a larger, better wrestler in Chael Sonnen could do the same,' that's not me calling you crazy. It's called debate. 

Everyone here is basing their opinions on styles. I could ask you the same question - what do you base your opinion that Matt Hammill, Dan Henderson, Vitor Belfort, and Wand Silva could defeat Chael Sonnen on? Chael has walked through punches, taken down, and dominated elite strikers, so it's entirely possible that he could do the same to Henderson, Wand, and Belfort. Chael has also outwrestled and outworked men larger than himself, and half of the fighters on your list aren't even as big as Sonnen to begin with. People base their opinions off of styles. You ask me 'based off what', and I could ask the same of you. This isn't some one-way street where you magically have all the answers. 

Also, look at your list - Rich Franklin, Matt Hammill, and Wand Silva, yet no mention whatsoever of Phil Davis, Big Nog, or even Jimi Manuwa. Don't act as though your list is filled with nothing but the elite of the elite. If you're going to get all worked up when people propose that Chael has a good chance at beating the likes of Shogun, Matt Hammill, Rich Franklin, and Wand Silva, then create a better list. 

And the 'he barely got by Bisping' and 'he was defeated by Maia' lines are ridiculously tired - let them go. He beat Bisping. You can make up every excuse you want, but Mike lost. And if losing to Maia is somehow a knock on Chael, then I suppose Stun Gun and Jon Fitch should hang up their gloves as well. You go ahead and live in the past. Ignoring that fighters can improve and/or have bad nights is turning a blind eye to reality for the sake of bolstering one's arguments. You can believe whatever you like, but it's more than clear which party is biased here.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> This is what I'm talking about. You're getting all riled up again. I didn't 'call you out' on your picks. Anyone who wishes to read back through this thread will see that you jumped on everyone who chose Sonnen over Henderson, and I simply responded that it's not impossible that Sonnen could take down and control Dan for 3 rounds. No where did I call you crazy. In fact, I'm positive it was the other way around. When you make the claim that Sonnen would likely get destroyed by Henderson, and I respond with, 'Well, Jake Shields managed to take Dan down and control him for four rounds, so it's not impossible that a larger, better wrestler in Chael Sonnen could do the same,' that's not me calling you crazy. It's called debate.
> 
> Everyone here is basing their opinions on styles. I could ask you the same question - what do you base your opinion that Matt Hammill, Dan Henderson, Vitor Belfort, and Wand Silva could defeat Chael Sonnen on? Chael has walked through punches, taken down, and dominated elite strikers, so it's entirely possible that he could do the same to Henderson, Wand, and Belfort. Chael has also outwrestled and outworked men larger than himself. People base their opinions off of styles. You ask me 'based off what', and I could ask the same of you. This isn't some one-way street where you magically have all the answers.
> 
> ...


I'm not getting riled up also you are completely wrong about the Hendo-Chael situation. You called me out, not the other way around. You specifically highlighted that fight and Wand fight and called me out and said it was crazy I would make that pick. It wasn't until then that I even mentioned that specific fight.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> *No offence, my friend, but the fact that you chose Wand and Henderson over Sonnen proves to me that you legitimately just don't like the man, and that blatantly clouds your judgement.* You can tell me that's not the case, but it's clear as day. Just using plain old fashioned sense should tell you that Sonnen would easily outwrestle Hendo and Wand, cruising to a UD.
> 
> I'm sorry it makes you 'sick' that some people can see passed their own personal distaste for a fighter.


You were the first to bring up that fight and you were the one that suggest I was biased based on who I picked in that matchup. It was you sir, not me.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

OU said:


> Sersiously? You people are so delusional if you think Hendo couldn't knock Sonnens face off. The man just went on an epic run that Chael Sonnen could only dream about, Chael Sonnen could put plaster in his gloves and still not possess the ability to even phase Hendo. He would have to put Hendo on his back for the entire fight. I think the old man can find that chin, Sonnen ain't running away like Machida. He will come forward and eventually get KTFO.
> 
> How picking Hendo over Chael Sonnen is controversial in any way says a hell of a lot more about you guys then is does me. ******* unreal how this man is overrated. He has struggled with much lesser fighters then the men listed.


Fair enough - I said you were biased, yes. You then flew off at the handle and called me crazy and everyone else delusional. There's a stark contrast between my response and your reaction to it. I should know better than to get involved in these discussions with you, as we're on two different wavelengths to begin with. Once again, I propose we agree to disagree.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

seems like a ridiculous argument to me. Chael's a world class fighter that stands a chance against anyone in his weight class. He's the only guy to really challenge Anderson and that's enough. Whether he'd beat Dan Henderson is completely a moot point, Chael's unique ability to promote himself seems to polarize people more than any other fighter does. Even though he'll probably get annihilated I'm excited to see him fight Jones, I like Chael's fearless style.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I said you were biased, yes. You then flew off at the handle and called me crazy. There's a stark contrast between my response and your reaction to it. I should know better than to get involved in these discussions with you, as we're on two different wavelengths to begin with. Once again, I propose we agree to disagree.


No problem agreeing to disagree but as you can clearly see on page one you were the one that specifically mentioned my picks and the Hendo and Wand picks and called me biased based on picking them to win. You were the one that suggested I couldn't possibly pick Hendo over Chael without bias and went on to say that Chael would "obviously" and "easily" beat Hendo. Now you are backpedaling and falsely pointing the finger at me.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

OU said:


> No problem agreeing to disagree but as you can clearly see on page one you were the one that specifically mentioned my picks and the Hendo and Wand picks and called me biased based on picking them to win. You were the one that suggested I couldn't possibly pick Hendo over Chael without bias and went on to say that Chael would "obviously" and "easily" beat Hendo. Now you are backpedaling and falsely pointing the finger at me.


I'm not falsely accusing you of anything. I called you out for being biased, and I've just admitted that. You then got all sore at everyone and accused people of being crazy and delusional. You've done so several times throughout this thread. I owned up to my mistake, but you can't possibly act as though you've not attacked people throughout this thread. 

There's no sense in trying to cover your own arse. Just man up to it as I have. Chael Sonnen is clearly hostile territory with you. It's plain as day. You are biased, and you do get uppity during these discussions.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

You also made your picks with the qualifier 'It seriously makes me sick how people view Sonnen'. You invited accusations of bias.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I'm not falsely accusing you of anything. I called you out for being biased, and I've just admitted that. You then got all sore at everyone and accused people of being crazy and delusional. You've done so several times throughout this thread. I owned up to my mistake, but you can't possibly act as though you've not attacked people throughout this thread.
> 
> There's no sense in trying to cover your own arse. Just man up to it as I have. Chael Sonnen is clearly hostile territory with you. It's plain as day.


My very first post in this thread today says "I've done my share as well", how is that not owing up to it? It wasn't a one way thing with me being attacked, I did my share and I admit that. 


> Anyone who wishes to read back through this thread will see that you jumped on everyone who chose Sonnen over Henderson, and I simply responded that it's not impossible that Sonnen could take down and control Dan for 3 rounds.


That is a direct quote from you. But if you really go back you can clearly see that you didn't "clearly respond that is't not impossible that Sonnen could take down and control dan for 3 rounds". What you really did was take my pick of Hendo over Chael and called me biased for even suggesting Hendo could win the fight. You weren't suggesting Chael had a chance to win you flat out said picking Hendo to win clearly makes me biased. Which implies Hendo had no chance to win.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

I repeat - you qualified all of your choices with, 'It makes me sick how people view Chael Sonnen'. You invited criticisms. I've also admitted that I called you out first, so I'm not sure what you're still attempting to prove. None of this changes your attitude throughout this entire thread. You're still sore, even now. 

And the fact that I referred to you as biased gave you free reign to respond to me - instead, you referred to everyone here as 'delusional'. That goes beyond a simple back and forth with one person. You saw fit to drag everyone else into it, not I. 

So would you like to continue this Dr. Phil moment, or are we about ready to drop the curtain on this soap opera?


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I repeat - you qualified all of your choices with, 'It makes me sick how people view Chael Sonnen'. You invited criticisms. I've also admitted that I called you out first, so I'm not sure what you're still attempting to prove. None of this changes your attitude throughout this entire thread. You're still sore, even now.
> 
> And the fact that I referred to you as biased gave you free reign to respond to me - instead, you referred to everyone here as 'delusional'. That goes beyond a simple back and forth with one person. You saw fit to drag everyone else into it, not I.
> 
> So would you like to continue this Dr. Phil moment, or are we about ready to drop the curtain on this soap opera?


I'm ready to drop it. Chael Sonnen fans live in a alternate reality and there is no getting through.


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

Chael Sonnen vs *Chris Weidman*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Vitor Belfort
*Chael Sonnen* vs Hector Lombard
Chael Sonnen vs *Jacare*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Luke Rockhold
*Chael Sonnen* vs Wanderlei
*Chael Sonnen* vs Costas Philippou
Chael Sonnen vs *Forrest Griffin*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Shogun
Chael Sonnen vs *Hendo*
Chael Sonnen vs *Machida*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Bader
Chael Sonnen vs *Gustafsson*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Mousasi
*Chael Sonnen* vs Feijao
Chael Sonnen vs *Rashad*
Chael Sonnen vs *Glover*
*Chael Sonnen* vs Te Huna
*Chael Sonnen* vs Matt Hamill 
*Chael Sonnen* vs Rich Franklin


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Too bad Chael is gonna retire after being raped by Jones, cause i can see him easily going 0-5 in the LHW division and therefore opening the eyes of many people who think he is somehow a great fighter.

I ask again, out of the list in the initial post, who do you see Chael finishing?


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

AmdM said:


> Too bad Chael is gonna retire after being raped by Jones, cause i can see him easily going 0-5 in the LHW division and therefore opening the eyes of many people who think he is somehow a great fighter.
> 
> I ask again, out of the list in the initial post, who do you see Chael finishing?


Finishing? None of them. Sonnen's style is about grinding out decisions, of which many of them I and others believe he could.

Now ask me how many people in the WW division do I see GSP finishing? You'll get a very similar answer.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

OU said:


> I did my share, I don't think anyone really crossed the line or anything. You have the "haters" who haven't seen anything that would make them think Chael is near as good of a fighter as his "fanboys" would like to believe. So it's just one extreme vs the other. Fanboys picking him to win fights that I can't imagine he would even be competitve in. But that makes me a "hater" because other then his mouth I don't find much to be impressed about with Chael. I think his wrestling is being massively overrated as well as his cardio and strength. But whatever, like many others have pointed out we will likely never know since Chael is likely to retire after Bones beats the breaks off him.


I never called OU stupid. He's made stupid comments, but most have lol. OU is in fact one of my favourite posters. 

And to clear something up I'm not even a Sonnen fan


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

AmdM said:


> Too bad Chael is gonna retire after being raped by Jones, cause i can see him easily going 0-5 in the LHW division and therefore opening the eyes of many people who think he is somehow a great fighter.
> 
> I ask again, out of the list in the initial post, who do you see Chael finishing?


actually he already has a win at lhw but facts never cross your mind I know that


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

M.C said:


> Finishing? None of them. Sonnen's style is about grinding out decisions, of which many of them I and others believe he could.
> 
> Now ask me how many people in the WW division do I see GSP finishing? You'll get a very similar answer.


I don't believe he could.
In LHW his shoot will be slower and he be in the average size, so his main weapons are automatically taken away.

The difference between GSP and Sonnen is that GSP has the ability to finish almost everyone in the WW div, although he plays the safe game so we are probably never going to see him finish someone again during his career.
Sonnen on the other hand i can't see him finishing anyone because he clearly doesn't have the tools for it.





UFC_OWNS said:


> actually he already has a win at lhw but facts never cross your mind I know that


I've actually managed to download and see the all UFC library.
Yes, i've seen Sonnen face Prangley and even was able not to fall asleep so i feel entitled to say that nowadays there are no guys in the UFC with the kind of holes Prangley had at the time.


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## MCMAP Wizzard (Feb 5, 2012)

Funny how Sonnen dominated the p4p #1 guy for 23 minutes, busted up his ribs and beat him up before the hail mary submission, yet some people have him losing to over half the guys on that list. LOL


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

This whole thread is a big old bucket of bait.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

MCMAP Wizzard said:


> Funny how Sonnen dominated the p4p #1 guy for 23 minutes, busted up his ribs and beat him up before the hail mary submission, yet some people have him losing to over half the guys on that list. LOL


The thing is, Andy had a bad rib before getting in the ring, it wasn't sonnen who did the damage. If anything sonnen's fat ass only worsened the injury.
Besides, people, when have you guys seen Silva walk in to a fight wearing a gi?
If that doesn't tell you that his goal was to submit the guy and defend Nog BJJ then by all means i don't consider you smart enough to even have this debate with you.
Silva wanted to be under Sonnen that fight. He wanted the sub BAD!


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

AmdM said:


> The thing is, Andy had a bad rib before getting in the ring, it wasn't sonnen who did the damage. If anything sonnen's fat ass only worsened the injury.
> Besides, people, when have you guys seen Silva walk in to a fight wearing a gi?
> If that doesn't tell you that his goal was to submit the guy and defend Nog BJJ then by all means i don't consider you smart enough to even have this debate with you.
> Silva wanted to be under Sonnen that fight. He wanted the sub BAD!


lol get help


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> lol get help


So in your opinion Silva wore the GI because it was cold that day?


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

AmdM said:


> So in your opinion Silva wore the GI because it was cold that day?


Ahh conspiracy theories are always fun


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> Ahh conspiracy theories are always fun


As the convenient lack of logic when needed!


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Annnnnnnnnd, this thread is done.


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

MCMAP Wizzard said:


> Funny how Sonnen dominated the p4p #1 guy for 23 minutes, busted up his ribs and beat him up before the hail mary submission, yet some people have him losing to over half the guys on that list. LOL


There is no such thing as a hail mary submission, atleast not at UFC level fights. That was some blackbelt-level stuff & calling it hail mary is like calling every sub or KO in MMA hail mary then. So I guess that's what finishes are? yea I know ur a Sonnen fan so you prefer that lay on top playing pattycake style I guess & not all that "hail mary" finishing BS. No no no sir, spasm-slap that's how a real man fights.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

it was a hail mary sub, silva lost every round and there was barely any time left and he got the sub, there couldn't be a better definition of hail mary than that fight


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

mmaswe82 said:


> *There is no such thing as a hail mary submission*, atleast not at UFC level fights. That was some blackbelt-level stuff & calling it hail mary is like calling every sub or KO in MMA hail mary then. So I guess that's what finishes are? yea I know ur a Sonnen fan so you prefer that lay on top playing pattycake style I guess & not all that "hail mary" finishing BS. No no no sir, spasm-slap that's how a real man fights.


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> it was a hail mary sub, silva lost every round and there was barely any time left and he got the sub, there couldn't be a better definition of hail mary than that fight


So finishes in the last round are all "hail mary"? Silva tried to sub Sonnen for an entire fight, he did what he wanted to do. Calling it that is like saying Sonnen *almost* got a hail mary decision. Sonnen wants to stay on top, not get stood up, not get subbed, Silva wants to sub Sonnen, in the end Silva did what he wanted and Sonnen did not, nothing hail mary about it. 

Then you will say but yea Sonnen did it for 4.5 rounds & silva only did what he did for a few seconds, well yeah that's what being a finisher vs being a point-fighter is all about. You either try to ride out the time, or you try to stop it. So who did what for how long is just down to styles & doesn't matter. It wasn't luck that made Silva sub Sonnen, it was skill.
Look at GSP vs Diaz, there the tables where turned in the decision-fighters favour, simply because GSP is more skilled than Diaz, just as Silva is more skilled than Sonnen.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

mmaswe82 said:


> So finishes in the last round are all "hail mary"?


When a fighter is clearly down on the cards and has lost the fight due to points a finish it is typically called a hail mary.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

John8204 said:


> When a fighter is clearly down on the cards and has lost the fight due to points a finish it is typically called a hail mary.


This. You have your logic all mixed up


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

John8204 said:


> When a fighter is clearly down on the cards and has lost the fight due to points a finish it is typically called a hail mary.


That's like saying anyone who is down on points and gets a late finish did it due to luck more than anything, wich I don't agree with at all. Luck or hail mary might apply if someone is getting dominated and lands a random punch that KO's the other guy, and even then it's a bit disrespectful as the guy did try to land that punch in the first place.
Sonnen didn't "dominate" Silva as in Sonnen just had so much skill that Silva didn't know how to counter it. It could probably have been a much closer fight up until the sub, had Silva chosen a different gameplan. He went the BJJ way and looked for the sub, wich puts you behind on the scorecard until you finish the guy.

The thing with being a BJJ guard-fighter vs being a topgame decision-fighter is that until you get that sub in you will most likely be behind on points as sub-attempts do not really score anything. So for it not to be a "lucky sub" you would have to sub the guy instantly, wich just isn't normally how it's done since BJJ require setups.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

mmaswe82 said:


> *That's like saying anyone who is down on points and gets a late finish did it due to luck more than anything, wich I don't agree with at all.*


Getting a finish is a big deal in MMA, and luck tends to be a factor in it. Their is a reason they give bonuses to finishes the more spectacular or "lucky" the finish the more likely the bonus. I've seen Tim Boetsch over Okami (1 minute into the third), Chris Leben subbing Okami (4 minutes in), Carlos Condit KOing Rory (10 seconds left) all called "Hail Mary's". You may not like the jargon and feel like their is some sort of negative co-notation to it. But I feel like this is more a psychological issue you have than something that is applicable to the sport. The sport has rules, the biggest one is the 10-9 must scoring system you must win rounds to win fights when you've lost on the 10-9 must scoring and pull out the win it's a Hail Mary.




mmaswe82 said:


> Sonnen didn't "dominate" Silva as in Sonnen just had so much skill that Silva didn't know how to counter it. It could probably have been a much closer fight up until the sub, had Silva chosen a different gameplan. He went the BJJ way and looked for the sub, wich puts you behind on the scorecard until you finish the guy.


It was perhaps the most one sided beat down scoring wise in UFC championship history. I get the bias, Silva has a lot of fans but three of those rounds the judges gave out 10-8's I just watched Filho/Branch fight and Filho did nothing for three rounds and only got 1 10/8. When they talk about Silva they will talk about the run, the kick, his LHW fights but they are also going to talk about the comeback.



> The thing with being a BJJ guard-fighter vs being a topgame decision-fighter is that until you get that sub in you will most likely be behind on points as sub-attempts do not really score anything. So for it not to be a "lucky sub" you would have to sub the guy instantly, wich just isn't normally how it's done since BJJ require setups.


You used a very important line earlier in this discussion you said "at this level". And you know what you really need to apply that here. Luck plays a huge roll you can look at Hughes/Trigg, Jackson/Arona, and Couture/Belfort getting those subs, beings a little stronger, or just getting a lucky swing can make all the difference in a fighters career.

Woody Allen said it best in Match Point about Tennis, I think he got it right.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

John8204 said:


> You used a very important line earlier in this discussion you said "at this level". And you know what you really need to apply that here. Luck plays a huge roll you can look at Hughes/Trigg, Jackson/Arona, and Couture/Belfort getting those subs, beings a little stronger, or just getting a lucky swing can make all the difference in a fighters career.
> 
> Woody Allen said it best in Match Point about Tennis, I think he got it right.


The difference between striking and grappling is reaction time. In striking there is much more out of the fighters' hands, because striking and bodymovement is faster than the brain's processing speed. There is an easy test where you can see that optical reaction time is slower than tactile reaction time: Try to catch a ruler between your thumb and index finger when someone else holds it, so the ruler hangs downwards. You close your thumb and index finger at the bottom of the ruler with an inch of distance. One time you don't touch the ruler and one time you touch it (both times leaving an inch of distance between thumb and index). When your buddy lets the ruler fall, you try to catch it. You will see that it's much harder to catch it with optical information alone when you don't touch it.

Because it's more out of the hands of the fighters is why you see quite often that a mediocre striker catches a good striker with a "lucky punch", while you very rarely see a mediocre grappler catching a good grappler with a "lucky submission".


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

The fact that it was a 'hail-mary' submission doesn't make it any less a victory. I don't see why someone would be bothered by the use of the term. Anderson still won. Call it a 'come-from-behind' victory if it makes you feel better.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Canadian Psycho said:


> 'come-from-behind'



:wink03:


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

John8204 said:


> Getting a finish is a big deal in MMA, and luck tends to be a factor in it. Their is a reason they give bonuses to finishes the more spectacular or "lucky" the finish the more likely the bonus. I've seen Tim Boetsch over Okami (1 minute into the third), Chris Leben subbing Okami (4 minutes in), Carlos Condit KOing Rory (10 seconds left) all called "Hail Mary's". You may not like the jargon and feel like their is some sort of negative co-notation to it. But I feel like this is more a psychological issue you have than something that is applicable to the sport. The sport has rules, the biggest one is the 10-9 must scoring system you must win rounds to win fights when you've lost on the 10-9 must scoring and pull out the win it's a Hail Mary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Scoring wise sure, I'm not dispuiting that, actually it kind off falls into the point I was making. 

I mean compare it to a fight like Cung Le vs Scott Smith one. That to me was lucky. Smith was clearly outmatched in striking-skill the whole fight and only landed that punch due to Le gassing. And even then I wouldn't say it was just luck since cardio is a big part of the game but still, Smitt was easily outclassed in skill and basicly was lucky to have better cardio if you have to call anything luck or hail mary, that's as close as you get imo.
Now compare this to a grappling situation where someone was outclassed, like Brian Stann vs Sonnen. There was no way in hell Stann would even come close to Subbing Sonnen since he had no idea what to do with different positions etc.


When it comes to the Silva/Sonnen fight, Silva wasn't outmatched in grapplingskills at all & what people call Silva getting dominated was only on the scoreboards. Like I stated before that was due to the styles of the fighters, ofcourse the pointfighter is going to be leading on the scoreboards until he gets finished or time runs out. But it wasn't Sonnen outclassing Silva in skill, Silva didn't even try to get up, who knows if he could have? He went for the sub in every round and because of that he fell behind on the scorecards since you can't score while trying to sub someone from your back. It's pretty much the big dilema of BJJ & the guard, that if you fail to sub the guy you are going to lose on points in MMA since the guy on top is scoring constantly.

That doesn't necessarily mean the guy on the bottom is ouclassed in skill in any way, it's just how the game works.

It's not like Silva was clueless on the ground, being dominated like Brian Stann or someone of that caliber, it just took him a while to get the setup for the win, but he was in the game the entire fight on the ground. Was it close? sure, but lucky hell no I don't agree with that at all.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

mmaswe82 knows it!


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

Hail Mary Submissions are cool.


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## The Best Around (Oct 18, 2011)

It's almost impossible to say because Sonnen is just getting to LHW now but if I were forced to put money down on these fights, I'd probably bet on Sonnen for all except Belfort, Machida, and Gus.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

The Best Around said:


> It's almost impossible to say because Sonnen is just getting to LHW now but if I were forced to put money down on these fights, I'd probably bet on Sonnen for all except Belfort, Machida, and Gus.


Why do you think Belfort wins? Not many picked him if I remember correctly


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Stun Gun said:


> Why do you think Belfort wins? Not many picked him if I remember correctly


I picked him, because his aggressive grappling against Jones impressed me and submissions have always been Sonnen's weakness. And Belfort looks hungry these days (other than Rua for example).


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## xxpillowxxjp (Aug 23, 2010)

Better question is why does anyone think gus wins? Creamed by davis but somehow has good enough wrestling to stop chael?... don't think so


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

xxpillowxxjp said:


> Better question is why does anyone think gus wins? Creamed by davis but somehow has good enough wrestling to stop chael?... don't think so


Gus has improved a lot since the Davis fight. Gus imo would probably lose.


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