# So why did Shogun not throw



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

leg kicks??

That IMO was supposed to be a big part of the strategy Shogun applies against Jones. But i cant remember seeing that many?? :confused02: 

was he just worried about the takedown or was there more to it??

and im REwatching the fight. Really sad to see Shogun TAP there at the end. Looks like Bones really broke him...


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## anderton46 (Apr 23, 2010)

He seemed real worried about takedowns and he should have been because Bones on top is trouble for everyone, hes ridiculously big. I think it's a case of GSP syndrome for Jones Jones, in the fact I don't believe that his standup is brilliant but the fact his opponants know he can take them down with relative ease means their standup becomes more effective.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

jones reach was key.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

marcthegame said:


> jones reach was key.


Which is what Leg kicks are good for. Fighting people with a good reach.

Since he couldnt reach him with the punches then Low kicks is a good way to make up for it.

Personally.. i know im about to get flamed with "QUIT MAKING EXCUSES" but.... Shoguns knees are not healthy.

*Hides*


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> Which is what Leg kicks are good for. Fighting people with a good reach.
> 
> Since he couldnt reach him with the punches then Low kicks is a good way to make up for it.
> 
> ...


it is good for closing the gap but when the dude stands there waiting for you and when you get close he hits you, it makes you think and back away.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

marcthegame said:


> it is good for closing the gap but when the dude stands there waiting for you and when you get close he hits you, it makes you think and back away.


You dont get close for leg kicks. Thats the whole point. Plus Shogun kicks pretty damn hard. Messing up Jones legs would have had a drastic effect in that fight.

But hay.. im just speculating here. I have no proof to back up my theory that Shoguns knees are not healthy. Im just going by the amount of recent surgeries he has had on it and by the way he fought tonight. Kicks are shoguns best weapon.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Jones trained a lot for Shogun's kicks. Afterall, they are one of his biggest weapons.

When you train like a maniac, trying to anticipate that 0.001 of a second, when the kick is being started, you learn ho to time it down.

Shogun's kicks are very effective if they hit you. Otherwise they turn into a weakness of his. Especially against a guy like Jones, who has unorthodox ring movement and is extremely fast, being able to cover distances very fast.

Also, for Shogun's kicks to connect he should have been closer to Jones, than usually.
But by doing so, he exposed himself to Jones' kicks.

Re-watch the fight and you will see Jones working a lot with front kicks - wich connected really well - and a lot of quick-short kicks to Shogun's knee area.
Everytime Shogun tried to come forward Jones had an answer: whether it was kicks or punches.

And after doing so, he left Shogun guessing on what he's gonna do next. When Shogun thought a kick is coming and tried to close the distance differently - without kicks - Jones took advantage and took Shogun down.

Excellent strategy from Mr. Greg Jackson. And perfectly applied by Mr. Jon Jones.

_Just my interpretation on what i saw. _


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Sideway i'm going to bite, u may have a theory on those knees because jones looked like usain bolts speed wise out there. Shogun looked like roy neslon compare to jones.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

limba said:


> Jones tained a lot for Shogun's kicks. Afterall, they are one of his biggest weapons.
> 
> When you train like a maniac, trying to anticipate that 0.001 of a second, when the kick is being started, you learn ho to time it down.
> 
> ...


I dunno.. i dont think this is a reasonable explanation. 

Machida trained alot of Shoguns kicks but it didnt help. Every fighter trains alot for kicks but it doesn't help to that level. Timing Shoguns kick is alot harder then your making it out to be. If it was that easy then the kick would be a useless weapon.

Shoguns low kicks increase his range. So he very well could have thrown them and landed them. You are saying he didnt because he didnt want to come in close but the whole point of them is so you dont have to come in close. And to add to that Shogun was willing to rush in to throw strikes which left him alot more exposed and close then throwing a Low Kick would.

Shogun didnt throw alot of low kicks from the beginning of the fight. So for w/e reason he just wasnt willing to throw them. Jones didnt even make him pay for throwing them and he still wasnt throwing them like he normally does. But he was rushing in which was alot more stupid.

I truly dont think there is a reasonable explanation that has to do with Jones. It was Shogun that made himself not throw those low kicks.

lets be honest here. You WANT Jones to be the reason Shogun couldn't throw them. I on the other hand am neutral on the matter and just going by what i see.



marcthegame said:


> Sideway i'm going to bite, u may have a theory on those knees because jones looked like usain bolts speed wise out there. Shogun looked like roy neslon compare to jones.


He did look really slow. Even the people that dont want to take anything away from Jones performance have to admit to that. I used to think one of Shoguns attributes was his speed. But i didnt see any in that fight.


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## HD209458B (Mar 19, 2011)

i dont get it either, i think first leg kick was in middle of round 2. i think he shoulda used low leg kicks he used in machida fights.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

HD209458B said:


> i dont get it either, i think first leg kick was in middle of round 2. i think he shoulda used low leg kicks he used in machida fights.


Same

I kept looking at Jones legs and just kept seeing a great target for Shoguns kicks. On the other hand he just didnt throw them. He could have done some damage with them. I dunno... could be that he didnt feel comfortable throwing them BUT someone with the experience Shogun has i seriously doubt that is the case. I cant help but believe that Shoguns knees are Shot. Its the only reasonable explanation imo.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> I dunno.. i dont think this is a reasonable explanation.
> 
> Machida trained alot of Shoguns kicks but it didnt help. Every fighter trains alot for kicks but it doesn't help to that level. Timing Shoguns kick is alot harder then your making it out to be. If it was that easy then the kick would be a useless weapon.
> 
> ...


If you want a better explanation, the best even - ask Shogun!



SideWays222 said:


> *I truly dont think there is a reasonable explanation that has to do with Jones.* It was Shogun that made himself not throw those low kicks.
> 
> lets be honest here. You WANT Jones to be the reason Shogun couldn't throw them. I on the other hand am neutral on the matter and just going by what i see.


WTF do you mean!
Of course Jones was the reason Shogun didn't use his kicks.
Because of the way Jones fought. Simple as that!
Wans't it Jones the guy who kept on pushing the pace, dominatting the stand-up, with kicks and punches?!

And on top of that: Shogun found himself on the floor most of the time.

I am a fan of Jones and i sound like one. That's for sure! Because i know what i saw!

But you claim to be neutral, wich you are not.
A neutral person wouldn't judge only Shogun's performance.
While trying to find an explanation for this, you are focusing only on Shogun, almost ignoring Jones' action in this fight.

Sorry!


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> jones reach was key.


This is the fight in a nutshell and will be every Jones fight at LHW in a nutshell.

Jones not so much moves fast, he can just cover an awful lot of ground. I reckon if Shogun kicked, he would be spinning around having hit nothing and would be tackled. Realising this and because of his aggressive nature, he chose to run in with his hands and try his luck at that; all Jones had to do was step back and he'd be 10 feet away again, though still able to land on Rua.

Jon's height and reach put's everything at a very manageable distance for him, and he really doesn't need to be a great striker. A lot of the time he can just throw without consequence, hence his creativity. A taller Shogun would have much more success, this is a job for The Reem. But of course, only if Jones goes HW; I've a feeling he'll continue fighting vastly smaller competion -_-.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

He was too tired to throw leg kicks, he was too tried to barley throw punches.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> He was too tired to throw leg kicks, he was too tried to barley throw punches.


It is possible he was not 100%, but I think he expended a lot of energy in the 1st. He was under Bones for 2-3 minutes, and unlike any of Bones' other opponents, Shogun was stalling him and controlling him, AND going for submissions. Then getting up, he took a hard kick to the head and a straight punch which were both pretty sharp, that would have made him feel like he'd been holding Jon for 3 rounds.

Having rewatched the fight, it is not such an awful beatdown as it seemed first time. In the 2nd or 3rd, Shogun had recovered quite a bit and was stalking Jon on the feet, land some shots and when they clinched he would break away. First round was more cardio heavy than it seemed though and it decided the fight.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Why would you throw leg kicks against a wrestler?


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## Finnsidious (Mar 14, 2009)

anderton46 said:


> He seemed real worried about takedowns and he should have been because Bones on top is trouble for everyone, hes ridiculously big. I think it's a case of GSP syndrome for Jones Jones, in the fact I don't believe that his standup is brilliant but the fact his opponants know he can take them down with relative ease means their standup becomes more effective.


 I think it was something like this. Everyone said Alves and Penn would outstrike GSP, but he just neutered them completely, because they were terrified of getting taken down. I thought it was evident right from the start Shogun was desperate to keep the fight standing, and that really affects your striking.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

SM33 said:


> It is possible he was not 100%, but I think he expended a lot of energy in the 1st. He was under Bones for 2-3 minutes, and unlike any of Bones' other opponents, Shogun was stalling him and controlling him, AND going for submissions. Then getting up, he took a hard kick to the head and a straight punch which were both pretty sharp, that would have made him feel like he'd been holding Jon for 3 rounds.
> 
> Having rewatched the fight, it is not such an awful beatdown as it seemed first time. In the 2nd or 3rd, Shogun had recovered quite a bit and was stalking Jon on the feet, land some shots and when they clinched he would break away. First round was more cardio heavy than it seemed though and it decided the fight.


Watch Alistair Overeem vs Shogun. Alistair starts off VERY similar to Jones did. Manhandles rua early on, controls him on the groumd, pounds him on the ground for like a good three minutes. He still wasnt close to gassing, infact it was his conditioning that pulled him through that fight when he came back and mauled Reem.

The two fights started off very similar, with shogun being over whelmed, both on the feet and on the ground, cardio and conditioning wasnt an issue there.



guy incognito said:


> Why would you throw leg kicks against a wrestler?


Ask Jose Aldo and Thiago Alves. :thumb02:


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

> Watch Alistair Overeem vs Shogun. Alistair starts off VERY similar to Jones did. Manhandles rua early on, controls him on the groumd, pounds him on the ground for like a good three minutes. He still wasnt close to gassing, infact it was his conditioning that pulled him through that fight when he came back and mauled Reem.
> 
> The two fights started off very similar, with shogun being over whelmed, both on the feet and on the ground, cardio and conditioning wasnt an issue there.


I know man, I know Rua's career very well he is my fave fighter but no fight is the same, Jon's GnP is especially vicious and there was a lot of urgency in this fight; Jones had to keep good position while defending subs, and Rua had to control Jones whilst avoiding GnP and being underneath.

That initial grappling in the first round was a struggle for both of them, a race to establish a lead and set the tone for the fight. Shogun did very well and got up with little damage... but it was the kick and punch to his head that turned the tide and made way for Jones. Those shots amplified the tiredness from getting out from under Jon - without those strikes, Shogun would have recovered like normal and it would have been a different fight.

The comparision with the Reem fights is still valid; for me it proves that if Shogun can't deal with Jon's size and style, then no one at LHW can. Jon is not more skilled than Rua in anything but wrestling, but wrestling when used right is very effective against any style, and Jon's size just makes it VERY hard to handle.

I think Rua did very well, that is the best Jon Jones we've seen so far and it was his most competitive bout so far, he really had to concentrate on the ground instead of just throwing machine gun elbows from in guard.


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

guy incognito said:


> Why would you throw leg kicks against a wrestler?


To take away the lead leg to take away some power and speed from the shot? Reduce movement? Make them heavy footed?

Loads of reasons. Obviously there's a big risk of being taken down, but Shogun's kicks are extremely fast and powerful, so worth that risk imo. If he felt rolling for a knee bar twice was worth the risk then surely the kicks should of been?


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## Zader (Mar 20, 2011)

*Jon Jones is Up and Coming*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_JxJyVOX7Y
...
THAT IS ALL

Though honestly, Jon Jones is doing his thing. Look at him, he's 23 WITH a title, this kid comes in with confidence ands swagger and he DELIVERS


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## HellRazor (Sep 24, 2006)

On the subject of leg kicks, Jones leg kicks may have something to do with Shogun not throwing his own. Those side kicks to Shogun's knees are a faster technique than tradition leg kicks, and Jones was throwing them from outside Shogun's kicking range.

Add in that, at Shogun's kicking range, Jones could PUNCH him, which is also a faster technique.

Last, look at the beginning of the fight. Flying knee, high kick, back kick. Jones established early that Shogun was going to have to defend from VERY far away. It hard to do a lot of damage with leg kicks when you're not in an offensive mode.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

Simple. That wasn't the Shogun that fought Chuck and Lyoto.

It doesn't matter if it was the surgery or Jones was too much for him, that just simply was not that same Shogun that we saw win the title. That was the Shogun that lost to Forrest and Coleman.

It'll be interesting to see what he does next.


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## tyler90wm (Oct 8, 2008)

HellRazor said:


> Last, look at the beginning of the fight. Flying knee, high kick, back kick. Jones established early that Shogun was going to have to defend from VERY far away. It hard to do a lot of damage with leg kicks when you're not in an offensive mode.


I agree. Jones started out very fast to begin the fight; I think that had an effect on Shogun not throwing as many kicks.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

A couple of reasons i believe contributed to the lack of leg kicks thrown by Shogun:

1 - Jones extreme reach advantage. They looked like they where in different weight classes out there, and along with having this huge reach Jones knows how to utilise it very effectively. He barely has to move to be well out of Shoguns range.

2 - Shogun learned very early in the fight that being on his back underneath Jones was (contrary to what i believed before the fight) a very bad place to be. He did well to avoid to much damage when taken down, but really Jones dominated the moment it hit the mat. Throwing kicks against a man with a huge reach, wrestling and speed advantage is inviting him to take you down. 

3 - Shogun looked slow and like he didnt know what to do out there. You can credit it to Jones speed and ability, or you can say it was Shogun's knees/ring rust etc. In all honesty, its most likely a combination of the two. Either way, this wasnt the same Shogun that decimated Lyoto.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Jones had an answer to everything Shogun attempted. Take a look at the fight again and pay attention to Shoguns movement. Everytime he attempts an attack, Jones is there to match it and it usually gets there first because of the reach. 

There is one key moment for you people who think Shogun should have thrown more low kicks. In round 2 I believe... could be wrong, he attempted a low kick only to be met with a quick left to the face, and that punch had a lot of power.

After that on exchange, Shogun didn't throw any more leg kicks. Check it out.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> Which is what Leg kicks are good for. Fighting people with a good reach.
> 
> Since he couldnt reach him with the punches then Low kicks is a good way to make up for it.
> 
> ...


Leg kicks can only over come so much reach... Shogun could barely hit jones with knees to the body from the clinch, the guy is huge.


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## Chousakan (Apr 20, 2008)

Why didn't Shogun throw more leg kicks? Jones' 8.5 inch reach advantage, far superior wrestling and the way he attacks from all levels, IMO anyway. 

If you don't set up the kick you are either getting your leg caught or eating some wierd ass, made up on the spot, spinning BS out of no where(the kid is a freak). But to set up the kick you need to engage or fake him out, and doing both is damn well hard against a a guy who can hold his hand on your forehead and be out of punching range(Jones did it a few times in the fight).


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

I think even leg kicks wouldn't have helped, maybe we'd have seen one more round, though. The end would've been the same.


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

I think Shogun got hurt in the first round, Jones was throwing a lot of shots to the body.


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

Dream-On-101 said:


> A couple of reasons i believe contributed to the lack of leg kicks thrown by Shogun:
> 
> 1 - Jones extreme reach advantage. They looked like they where in different weight classes out there, and along with having this huge reach Jones knows how to utilise it very effectively. He barely has to move to be well out of Shoguns range.
> 
> ...


Agreed!
Shogun looked as bad as he did in the Coleman and Forrest fights.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> Agreed! Shogun looked as bad as he did in the Coleman and Forrest fights.


No wonder after all these injuries and layoffs.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

kc1983 said:


> Agreed!
> Shogun looked as bad as he did in the Coleman and Forrest fights.


I think you guys are doing is not giving credit where credit is due. 

Look at Jones' previous opponents:

Bonnar: Looked completely out of place and lost 90% of that fight.

Hammill: Looked like he'd never wrestled a day in his life

Vera: Utterly decimated, looked like a rookie.

Bader: Coming in unbeaten and showing pretty dominant performances his entire career, he just got shut down immediately and destroyed, looked like shit compared to his normal self.

Shogun didn't look like shit because of something with Shogun, Shogun looked like shit because Jones makes other fighters look like shit. It's what he's been doing, albeit to fighters not as good as Shogun. Noow that he's done it to a high caliber fighter people act like it's a different situation than it was. It isn't at all. Jones hadn't shown his power to make high level caliber fighters look terrible so people still assume he can't and it's somehow Shogun's fault he looked bad. Fact of the matter: Jon Jones makes high level fighters look terrible because he is just that good. Might be a tough pill to swallow, but I suggest everyone still hating on him attempts to do so before he decimates their favorite fighter.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

TraMaI said:


> I think you guys are doing is not giving credit where credit is due.
> 
> Look at Jones' previous opponents:
> 
> ...


Exactly my thoughts. Shogun didn't have a chance at any point of the fight, that was brutal.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

SideWays222 said:


> leg kicks??
> 
> That IMO was supposed to be a big part of the strategy Shogun applies against Jones. But i cant remember seeing that many?? :confused02:
> 
> ...


Probably because that would have been a terrible strategy to use, firstly a taller guy has a better straight punch so a leg kick leaves your head open to that and secondly using a leg kick against a wrestler frequently is asking to be taken down.


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## FatFreeMilk (Jan 22, 2010)

Shogun should've counter struck Jones, not try run into him.


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## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

I made the same comment about the middle of the 2nd round.

And then Shogun tried to throw a leg kick to the mid-section. 

Jones blocked it easily and drilled Shogun in the lips with a hard right.

I'm pretty sure that had something to do with it.


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## Rusko (Feb 4, 2010)

Shogun gassed after rolling with bones for 2 mins. Flat on his feet etc... end of story


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

***** de Amigo said:


> Probably because that would have been a terrible strategy to use, firstly a taller guy has a better straight punch so a leg kick leaves your head open to that and secondly using a l*eg kick against a wrestler frequently is asking to be taken down.*


If you time a leg kick properly and do it with the speed that Shogun does it then there is no worry of being taken down. People act like the instance you throw a leg kick then you also go down. There is plenty of strikers that have kicked the wrestlers leg and made his shot alot worse. One that comes to mind is Kos and Alves.

terrible strategy... your funny.




limba said:


> If you want a better explanation, the best even - ask Shogun!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WTF I MEAN IS!!!! DUN DUN DUNNNN

That Shoguns knees are shot. Its not far fetched seeing as how he had surgeries on them MULTIPLE TIMES. Thats wtf i mean. Use your damn head and you wouldnt ask that stuff.

I am neutral. I like Jones and i like Shogun. I have no reason to make excuses for Shogun. I watched that fight as you did and i saw Shogun not even attempt low kicks. OBVIOUSLY you are going to say that its because "Jones is super human and every time he throws a leg kick Jones would check it and bitch slap him and then elbow him and then take him down!! so that is why Shogun didnt throw leg kicks." But that is already expected coming from you. You cant expect me to take your opinion seriously on a fighter that you so openly dick ride every second of your day.

If you would even show a shred of Unbiased when it comes to Jones then i would take you seriously. But you make an excuse or reason for every single things Jones does. Jones could stab a small child and you would still say something like "He is 23 years young.. UFC CHAMPION... pressure got to him. It isnt his fault he stabbed that child. Its everyone elses fault for putting so much pressure on him!!!" Lmao


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

I'm surprised no one has pointed out the obvious answer to this thread.

Shogun did try a leg kick. Just the one. It was grabbed by Jones' gorilla arms instantly and he was taken down for all his trouble, and fed elbows for the rest of the round. That's why he didn't throw any more.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Look man, he didn't throw kicks because Jones is fast as shit. He throws a kick the dude is going to risk getting hit with the kick and go for a spinning elbow to your face that comes at almost light speed or some other crazy shit. Jones is a smart dude, he's willing to risk the damage for the finish and not care if he gets knocked out, he's not very methodical and that's what makes his game so dangerious; you don't know what to expect. People say he's a "dynamic" fighter, what does that really mean? He's random as shit, people can't figure him out. Why is that? He doesn't come in with a gameplan, but plays to his strengths in a fight and adjusts accordingly. The dude is very intelligent and he has no fear. 

That's not to say Shogun is not the same way, Jones is just better...or was better that night, simple as that. It was a great fight and they both looked in it to win it in round 1, Shogun lost, no excuses.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Liddellianenko said:


> I'm surprised no one has pointed out the obvious answer to this thread.
> 
> Shogun did try a leg kick. Just the one. It was grabbed by Jones instantly and he was taken down for all his trouble, and fed elbows for the rest of the round. That's why he didn't throw any more.


Did he throw any in the first round??

Shogun wouldnt wait so long to throw a leg kick. And not only that but the kick he threw wasnt the kicks we saw in the Machida fight.

Sorry but the answer is more simple then that. His knees arnt 100% so he cant throw the kicks he usually throws.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> Did he throw any in the first round??
> 
> Shogun wouldnt wait so long to throw a leg kick. And not only that but the kick he threw wasnt the kicks we saw in the Machida fight.
> 
> Sorry but the answer is more simple then that. His knees arnt 100% so he cant throw the kicks he usually throws.


Then I hope his knees will get better, otherwise he's doomed to lose to not Jones only.


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## Maazisrock (Sep 22, 2008)

Umm no... His knees are healthy. He threw a great kick and jones took him down instantly with it. They wouldn't have worked. And this is coming from a big shogun fan.


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## Hopperman (Oct 15, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU-TUGARZ60 

FF to 1:10

His knees seem okay to me.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Hopperman said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU-TUGARZ60
> 
> FF to 1:10
> 
> His knees seem okay to me.


I hope your kidding. Those are hardly 100% and he is hitting a pad.

Im not trying to say that his knees are so bad that he can barely walk. But that so many surgeries surely has took a toll on them.


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## Hopperman (Oct 15, 2006)

I will give you that he probably was not 100%, but seriously how often are these fighters at 100% when they step into the octagon?


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> Did he throw any in the first round??
> 
> Shogun wouldnt wait so long to throw a leg kick. And not only that but the kick he threw wasnt the kicks we saw in the Machida fight.
> 
> Sorry but the answer is more simple then that. His knees arnt 100% so he cant throw the kicks he usually throws.


He didn't throw them earlier because he probably knew there was a high chance of this happening. And he was right.

And these weren't the kicks we saw in the Machida fight because (surprise!) he wasn't fighting Machida. He was fighting a guy capable of taking him down in a heartbeat and beating the snot out of him on the ground. 

It was the same thing in Alves vs GSP. Alves got totally shut down on the feet because of the fear of the takedown. It's completely different fighting a guy who you know is going to stand with you rather than one who could dump you on your head at the first sign of off-balance.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Liddellianenko said:


> He didn't throw them earlier because he probably knew there was a high chance of this happening. And he was right.
> 
> And these weren't the kicks we saw in the Machida fight because (surprise!) he wasn't fighting Machida. He was fighting a guy capable of taking him down in a heartbeat and beating the snot out of him on the ground.
> 
> It was the same thing in Alves vs GSP. Alves got totally shut down on the feet because of the fear of the takedown. It's completely different fighting a guy who you know is going to stand with you rather than one who could dump you on your head at the first sign of off-balance.


When it should have been like Kos vs Alves with Alves taking Kos legs out.

He was afraid of getting taken down?? Cuz he was having soooo much success on the feet. :sarcastic12:


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> When it should have been like Kos vs Alves with Alves taking Kos legs out.
> 
> He was afraid of getting taken down?? Cuz he was having soooo much success on the feet. :sarcastic12:


Believe it or not, GSP has better MMA wrestling than Koscheck. If you wish to dispute that, you can watch their two fights again.

Alves was able to stuff Koscheck. He was not able to stuff GSP, and he ate elbows. That is what put the fear into him.

And yes, even though Shogun was getting tooled on the feet as well at least he had a puncher's chance there and that is what he kept trying for. A big lunging overhand or hook, anything. On the ground, he had NOTHING. It was like watching a child being beaten.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Liddellianenko said:


> Believe it or not, GSP has better MMA wrestling than Koscheck. If you wish to dispute that, you can watch their two fights again.
> 
> Alves was able to stuff Koscheck. He was not able to stuff GSP, and he ate elbows. That is what put the fear into him.
> 
> And yes, even though Shogun was getting tooled on the feet as well at least he had a puncher's chance there and that is what he kept trying for. A big lunging overhand or hook, anything. On the ground, he had NOTHING. It was like watching a child being beaten.


Kos in their second fight held his own in wrestling.

A good timed leg kick lets you throw it without getting taken down. Shogun knows how to do that. Comparing GSP to Jones is just pointless imo. And IMO the biggest threats Shogun made were from his back.

that is all.


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## The Dark Knight (Jun 29, 2008)

Didn't realise Shogun tapped. That's the thing I always said about Shogun, he breaks when he can't establish his own pace or bully an opponent, that's why he would have lost to Rashad too. Forrest exposed this when they fought. Jones did great, but until he beats Rashad, nobody can say he is unbeatable because if anybody ever had the best chance it's Rashad. 

As long as Rashad doesn't clinch with him too much, Rashad should have a chance. War Rashad.

As for why Shogun didn't throw leg kicks. Yeah, he was worried about the TD and tired and just mentally beaten.


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## Nomale (Apr 22, 2007)

I was also perplexed about that. Especially when he had trouble getting inside with punches. 
Fast, powerful leg kicks aren't as vulnerable to takedowns as body/high-kicks.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

I re-watched the fight about 5 times last night trying to figure out what the hell went wrong to my favourite fighter. Quite simply i've come to two conclusions, but they link together 

A) Shogun gassed. Hard. You can insert whatever reason you want for his gassing (be it his knee injuries, the 1st round grappling, Jones hurting him etc etc, but the fact remains he could hardly throw a punch when the 2nd round started. 

B) This one hurts me to say, but Jones broke him. Gassing hard made it easier for Bones to break him, but he did. Shogun could offer NOTHING on the ground, and he couldnt get anywhere near him on the feet. When the final onslaught came, he had already taken significant shots to the head and body and he wanted out. Thats why he tapped...because Jon Jones made him. 


As for the topic post - leg kicks. Well i kept a look out for them as well. I saw Shogun throw one and end up on his back. When he was on his back he got brutalised. I think he made the connection and thought better of throwing many more. I saw him throw another and before it was anywhere near connecting with Jones he had been tagged by a straight right. Jones had his timing down.

I also think he was gassed and for what ever reason he didnt feel comfortable throwing kicks - i cant tell you if thats because of his knee complaints but i suspect it is. This was the Shogun that fought Coleman, not Machida, and that was also because of his knee injuries. 


Basically, Shogun was manhandled for the 1st time in his career - and he didnt have a clue what to do about it. But, i have faith he will bounce back.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Because he had no Energy left after the first grappling exchanges!


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Dream-On-101 said:


> I re-watched the fight about 5 times last night trying to figure out what the hell went wrong to my favourite fighter. Quite simply i've come to two conclusions, but they link together
> 
> A) Shogun gassed. Hard. You can insert whatever reason you want for his gassing (be it his knee injuries, the 1st round grappling, Jones hurting him etc etc, but the fact remains he could hardly throw a punch when the 2nd round started.
> 
> ...


Good assessment. It's tough when you're predominately a stand up striker and you have to wonder about getting taken down. Shogun seemed out of place even when he came out stalking. Jones was able to evade, shuck, jive, and land his strikes then take em down. It was very strange to see that happen to a seasoned veteran like Shogun. I would like to see a rematch in a year or so when Shogun gets back into shape. *I do believe they'll make SHOGUN VS RAMPAGE next. *



BobbyCooper said:


> Because he had no Energy left after the first grappling exchanges!


Yah Shogun's weakness are grapplers. They sap his energy. That fight was very reminiscent of the Griffin fight.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

No_Mercy said:


> *Yah Shogun's weakness are grapplers. They sap his energy. That fight was very reminiscent of the Griffin fight.*


grappling just takes the most out of you just like the clinch game. If Shogun had fought a striker like Vera for example that night, he might had been able to breath for almost 2 Rounds.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

BobbyCooper said:


> grappling just takes the most out of you just like the clinch game. If Shogun had fought a striker like Vera for example that night, he might had been able to breath for almost 2 Rounds.


Oh yah rolling in Jiu Jitsu class kills me everytime. Add getting punched in the head and watch the energy bar go down the toilet...haha.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

Agreed. Even though he clearly came into the fight with some cardio-deficiencies, they might not have been so pronounced had the fight stayed standing longer.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

I think Shogun knew what kind of shape he was in and knew there was no way he'd have the time or ability to work the leg kicks on Jones to soften him up. He knew he had to end it early with a KO or he was toast so all he did was throw full power KO punches at Jones' head. No setup, no straight punches like the ones he used against Machida, just the big looping over the top right. That and diving for a leg lock, he was desperate to end the fight even if it got him killed.


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

It's hard to throw leg kicks when you're already gasping for air after the walk-ins.


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## thrshr01 (Dec 30, 2007)

Shogun didn't throw his leg kicks because he was on the defense from the get go. Jones didn't give him time to plant and throw his kick, the moment he did, his back was on the mat. Simple as that. he might have had surgery, his knees might not be %100 but he felt good enough to sign the contract. He was given time to recover and he took the time. Drop the excuses and accept the fact. Jones was the better man fight night and he probably will for the better part of his career.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

AlphaDawg said:


> It's hard to throw leg kicks when you're already gasping for air after the walk-ins.


Keep making stupid excuses like its going to make shogun look any better.


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## HD209458B (Mar 19, 2011)

thrshr01 said:


> Shogun didn't throw his leg kicks because he was on the defense from the get go. Jones didn't give him time to plant and throw his kick, the moment he did, his back was on the mat. Simple as that. he might have had surgery, his knees might not be %100 but he felt good enough to sign the contract. He was given time to recover and he took the time. Drop the excuses and accept the fact. Jones was the better man fight night and he probably will for the better part of his career.


+1, i rewatched the fight and Shogun didnt really get any chance at the start, i guess Jones game plan worked really well.


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

vilify said:


> Keep making stupid excuses like its going to make shogun look any better.


Too bad that wasn't an excuse. Keep making stupid posts though.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Looks like someone is still upset over Jon Jones..go cry yourself to sleep I'm sure you'll feel better in the morning :sign02:


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

Upset? lol You're even dumber than I thought.

Every post I've made about this fight has been about how Jones is going to run through Shogun. If anything, I'm happy he won. He was an easy bet.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Sure buddy..just don't hurt yourself.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Relax you two, keep it civil.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Whatever Mirko has, I think Shogun caught it; Shogun certainly looked like a shell of himself. I don't think any version of Shogun would have beat JBJ, but a peak Shogun would have at least put up a Stephan Bonner type fight in my opinion. 

I still see Shogun looking like he's on an episode of Bully Beatdown no matter how he came in against JBJ, but the Shogun that showed up was simply rancid. Shogun was done half way through the first, mentally, physically, spiritually, anyway you can be done, he was, short of having the ability to say conscious.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

M.C said:


> Relax you two, keep it civil.







:thumb02:


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## SeanY (Oct 24, 2010)

Shogun didn't throw because he could barely get inside. He didn't want to stay on the outside as JJ was picking him apart, and Shogun was cautious to throw the leg kicks due to JJ's quick double legs. If Shogun can't make the gap quick enough, it would be impossible to throw effectively.


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> But hay.. im just speculating here. I have no proof to back up my theory that Shoguns knees are not healthy. Im just going by the amount of recent surgeries he has had on it and by the way he fought tonight. Kicks are shoguns best weapon.


One of the other threads showed the knee that Jones landed 5 seconds into the fight. I think the only problem was that Shogun was badly hurt/rocked right from the get go.


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