# Frank Mir: ‘I dont have Fedor being in the top’ P4P MMA rankings



## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

http://mmamania.com/2008/08/01/fran...r-being-in-the-top-p4p-mma-rankings/#comments



> “I don’t have Fedor being in the top … I don’t have him above B.J. Penn, St. Pierre.* I think that if all those guys weighed 155 pounds, that Fedor can’t beat B.J., he can’t beat Georges St. Pierre, and that’s what pound for pound means*. It means that if they were exactly the same size. I think that some people are a little misunderstanding of that whole idea.”
> 
> Former UFC heavyweight champion Frank Mir takes exception to the pound-for-pound ranking of Fedor Emelianenko on the recent top 10 list released by ESPN (fan votes were responsible for the order). He argues that the term is often misunderstood among those who attempt to create such lists. For example, Mir feels that a fighter such as WEC Bantamweight Champion Miguel Torres — who can compete at several different weight classes and likely be successful — should be top two or three. UFC Middleweight Champion Anderson Silva received 49 percent of the votes to take the top spot and Fedor — who came in second — tallied 40 percent of first place nominations.


Anyone else laugh at the bolded part? If BJ or GSP fought at HW, Fedor would whoop them because that's HIS weight-class. The reason those two fighters are so strong at their respective weight-classes is because they're best suited to them physically. 

Thanks Frank Mir for making the already ambiguous term "pound for pound" even more confusing. :confused03:


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## Shamrock-Ortiz (Sep 22, 2006)

Yeah I actually saw this earlier and stopped reading after the bold part.

That's just ridiculous, if Fedor was 155lbs, he'd be even more athletic than he is, and he's damn athletic for a heavyweight, if BJ or GSP were 230lbs, they'd be much less athletic.

P4P is TO ME, all there abilities and skills.

Fedor to me is better than Anderson because his ground is obviously tons better, his striking is on par (You can disagree with me if you will) His wrestling/throws are tons better. Fedor P4P wise is better than Anderson to me, BJ is closer to Fedor, his boxing is incredible for a mixed martial artist, we all know how great BJ is at BJJ, he has great flexibility and TDD/wrestling. GSP has tremendous wrestling, great ground. Great striking, but below Anderson, Fedor and BJ in that department.

Personally P4P I have..

Fedor Emelianenko
BJ Penn
Georges St Pierre
Anderson Silva

For the exact reasons above.

I don't care who's fought who recently or how well they've done, in that order is what I believe the P4P best fighters in the world are. 

Ranking wise, people do it alot different, people feel the need to put Anderson top for that, because of how well he's doing, not how good he is. IMO.

I am not underrating Silva here, he is the best in the MW division by a street. Just ability wise, he is below those other 3.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Thats how I have always considered P4P to mean, I 100% agree with Mir.


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## Judoka (Feb 23, 2007)

How i have it is there all round MMA game without weight being an issue. Say they are all the same weight but with the same athleticism and skills which is how i think of P4P.

Mine is,
1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Anderson Silva
3. Georges St Pierre
4. BJ Penn


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## Shamrock-Ortiz (Sep 22, 2006)

Toxic said:


> Thats how I have always considered P4P to mean, I 100% agree with Mir.


But how could you say that Fedor would not beat BJ at 155lbs, it's impossible to know. Fedor isn't even a big heavyweight that uses his size and strength as his biggest advantage, I could see it that way if this were the case. But it's Fedors skills that are so great.

There absolutely no point at looking it like, who would beat who if they were at that weight class, it's ludicrous, because you simply cannot do it.

EDIT:
It's quite obvious Frank Mir doesn't like Fedor as it's not the first time he's spoken about him in the "oooh he isn't the best" way. I'd love to see Fedor fight Mir, I'm pretty sure it would change his mind.


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## daitrong (May 27, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Thats how I have always considered P4P to mean, I 100% agree with Mir.


if you agree with Mir that fedor can't beat bj penn or GSP at their weight class, then you'll also have to agree that they can't beat fedor at 230-235. You seriously can't believe that bj with an additional 70 pounds of weight will fight at the same caliber he did at 155, likewise for GSP gaining 50lbs. 3 of 4 of Bj's loses were to fighters bigger than him and most of his wins are to ppl at 155. Whereas, most of Fedor's fights, his opponents had a significant weight and reach advantage...


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## MalkyBoy (Nov 14, 2007)

Does anyone remember the crap lates 70's or early 80's sci fi Arena? We would need something like that to sort out the P4P arguement. But that will never happen.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

daitrong said:


> if you agree with Mir that fedor can't beat bj penn or GSP at their weight class, then you'll also have to agree that they can't beat fedor at 230-235. You seriously can't believe that bj with an additional 70 pounds of weight will fight at the same caliber he did at 155, likewise for GSP gaining 50lbs. 3 of 4 of Bj's loses were to fighters bigger than him and most of his wins are to ppl at 155. Whereas, most of Fedor's fights, his opponents had a significant weight and reach advantage...


All things being proportionate then no I dont think Fedor could beat a BJ Penn of the same weight in any class, I just think the HW division is really lacking in skill and although Fedor is the undisputed king of the division, A good P4P example would be I'd put Josh Koscheck P4P about the same as Josh barnette, Tim Syvia about the same as Chris Leben Chris Leben, this is all in comparison so in other words Fedor beating Sylvia = BJ beating Leben.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

Koscheck at the same level as BARNETT!?
What?

Please explain that statemnet.....


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## daitrong (May 27, 2007)

Toxic said:


> All things being proportionate then no I dont think Fedor could beat a BJ Penn of the same weight in any class, I just think the HW division is really lacking in skill and although Fedor is the undisputed king of the division, A good P4P example would be I'd put Josh Koscheck P4P about the same as Josh barnette, Tim Syvia about the same as Chris Leben Chris Leben, this is all in comparison so in other words Fedor beating Sylvia = BJ beating Leben.


that's the thing "all things" will not be proportionate. Bj Penn's body and is not made to fight heavyweight. What you're basically saying in an idea world, if Bj had the same body type as fedor he will beat fedor.. or if BJ somehow grew proportionally bigger then he will beat fedor. The fact of the matter is, a 5 foot 9, Bj penn with an addittional 70-80 lbs will perform no where near the same caliber as if he fought at 155. His athleticism, speed, agility, and Stamina is based on his current weight class, and that will change dramatically if he moves to HW.


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## PanKrato (Mar 5, 2007)

Shamrock-Ortiz said:


> Yeah I actually saw this earlier and stopped reading after the bold part.
> 
> That's just ridiculous, if Fedor was 155lbs, he'd be even more athletic than he is, and he's damn athletic for a heavyweight, if BJ or GSP were 230lbs, they'd be much less athletic.
> 
> ...


I like Fedor, but his ground is not better than Silva's. There is nothing you can site in a fight that shows that ASilva's Black belt level ground game is inferior to Fedor's. 

Your opinion's not very insightful.
Look at Anderson's style, movement and technique. Also look at how he moves. Technically he's better than Fedor.

But that's ON PAPER. In practice, technique isn't as important as EXECUTION. And Fedor's execution has been, so far, UNstoppable.

So has ASilva though. THe last time he lost he wasn't at the level he is now.


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## Shamrock-Ortiz (Sep 22, 2006)

PanKrato said:


> I like Fedor, but his ground is not better than Silva's. There is nothing you can site in a fight that shows that ASilva's Black belt level ground game is inferior to Fedor's.
> 
> Your opinion's not very insightful.
> Look at Anderson's style, movement and technique. Also look at how he moves. Technically he's better than Fedor.
> ...


Of course his ground is better than Silva's, there is no comparison here. Have you seen how Fedor move's on the ground?? It's insane! Anderson Silva is no where near as comfortable, I'd like to see what happened if Toquinho or Jacare put him on the floor and compare that to how well Fedor did against Nogueira x2, I remember one of the times, maybe the only time Fedor was on his back in that/those fights, he reversed it so simply, straight away.

And there is DEFINITELY something I can sight in a fight which shows Andersons ground game is inferior to Fedor's.. Travis Lutter mounted him and started slamming down punches onto Anderson, when do you see Fedor get mounted and start taking punches to the chin? If that was someone with good G+P, Anderson could of well got KO'd.

There is no chance Fedor's ground is worse than Anderson's, the way the guy reverses people and finishes them quickly when he gets into danger is incredible, It's like he's finished playing around now, so then he'll just submit them like that. Kev Randleman slams him on his head, reversal submission as quick as you like, Fujjita stuns him, clinch, recover batters him takes him down choke. Hunt nearly Americana's Fedor, he looks like he doesn't care, reverses Mark and subs him as quick as you like.

When I say ground, I'm not just talking submissions, I'm talking ground control, G+P, sub defence and subs.

Fedor's easily better in all those categories in my opinion.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

I don't see Anderson Silva on the list moseso than Fedor. Fedor is not a big heavyweight but can dominate people way bigger than him. Anderson Silva is a big middleweight. he is really good at cutting weight. He actually looked exactly the same fighting at 205. IMO he's a 205er that is good enough at cutting weight to fight at middleweight.

IMO Fedor=top 5 P4P anderson silva=yet to be seen if he moves up to 205 we'll find out.


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## AxleZTTic (Jan 3, 2007)

Judoka said:


> How i have it is there all round MMA game without weight being an issue. Say they are all the same weight but with the same athleticism and skills which is how i think of P4P.
> 
> Mine is,
> 1. Fedor Emelianenko
> ...



thats exactly how i think of it. i think if you're thinking objectively about who is "the best fighter" then you HAVE to look at it that way. 

but while thinking of it that way, i totally dont see a way fedor would beat bj. bj vs fedor would be pure striking; i dont see any way fedor could take bj down. even if it somehow hit the mat, its impossible to submit bj, he's like mr. fantastic. on the feet, bj's never been knocked out. ive never even seen him rocked. his head IS a rock, a leathery, solid rock. i think when fedor tries to close the distance and get inside, bj would pop him with a nice uppercut and then get out of the way. IF fedor wins this fight, its by decision, after 3 rounds of back and forth ass whooping.
gsp vs fedor would be interesting. gsp would have to stay on the outside and try to work his wrestling. fedor would knock him out if he couldnt work his gameplan to a "t". realistically fedor could probably submit gsp from his back anyways, i give this one to fedor, 2nd round armbar.
anderson vs fedor would be mostly striking i think. anderson doesnt mind going to the ground with people he know's he's better than down there, but im not sure he'd have the same confidence against fedor. i also believe anderson has a great chin, and a solid head. his striking has proven to be absolutely devastating, and pin point accurate. i think fedor would stand and trade until anderson started getting the better of it, and then try to get in close and secure a take down. thats where it gets tricky. if fedor gets on top of anderson, i see him starting to do some damage before anderson attempts to scramble into a different position. in the transition i could see fedor securing a submission. its hard to say tho because anderson hasnt really been tested on the ground by anyone with a solid jj game. i see this fight going either way, either anderson wins via 2nd round tko, or fedor by 2nd round submission.

so my list for p4p would be:
1. bj
2. fedor or anderson (too close for me to call)
4. gsp


realistically tho, all these guys would have a chance at winning against each other at any given time. at least we will eventually get to see 1 matchup!


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

daitrong said:


> if you agree with Mir that fedor can't beat bj penn or GSP at their weight class, then you'll also have to agree that they can't beat fedor at 230-235. You seriously can't believe that bj with an additional 70 pounds of weight will fight at the same caliber he did at 155, likewise for GSP gaining 50lbs. 3 of 4 of Bj's loses were to fighters bigger than him and most of his wins are to ppl at 155. Whereas, most of Fedor's fights, his opponents had a significant weight and reach advantage...


That's exactly my point. If people think Fedor would lose to GSP/BJ Penn who are best physically suited to their weight-classes, then they have to admit that BJ/GSP would lose to Fedor in his respective weight-class.



PanKrato said:


> I like Fedor, but his ground is not better than Silva's. There is nothing you can site in a fight that shows that ASilva's Black belt level ground game is inferior to Fedor's.
> 
> Your opinion's not very insightful.
> Look at Anderson's style, movement and technique. Also look at how he moves. Technically he's better than Fedor.
> ...


I'd argue that Nogueira's ground game is better than Anderson's, just look at what Fedor did to him.

What you're not grasping is the caliber of Fedor's ***** (striking/grappling) credentials. Fedor is like the Jacare or Roger Gracie of *****, he's even better than them if we look at his success rate in competition. I really don't need to get into the specifics here to point out that Fedor is more accomplished as a ground fighter than Silva, it's plain as day.

I won't deny that Silva's a technically more gifted striker, but please, who has Silva submitted that is anywhere near as good on the ground as Fedor?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

daitrong said:


> that's the thing "all things" will not be proportionate. Bj Penn's body and is not made to fight heavyweight. What you're basically saying in an idea world, if Bj had the same body type as fedor he will beat fedor.. or if BJ somehow grew proportionally bigger then he will beat fedor. The fact of the matter is, a 5 foot 9, Bj penn with an addittional 70-80 lbs will perform no where near the same caliber as if he fought at 155. His athleticism, speed, agility, and Stamina is based on his current weight class, and that will change dramatically if he moves to HW.


 I think of it as a little sci fi enlargin/shrinking gun were the fighters are zapped and meet somewhere in the middle where there weights are proportionate, BJ would still have his freakish flexibility and Cadio, Im not talking BJ bulking up some 70 pounds on his existing frame,


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

This is why I hate pound for pound in mma because most people just flat out don't understand the concept. Frank Mir is right in what he is saying, you can disagree with who he ranks where but his logic for his ranking is right.

What he is saying is that if BJ, GSP, and Fedor all were *naturally* the same weight (he just threw 155 out there) that BJ and GSP would beat Fedor because they're the superior fighters. He isn't saying that if BJ and GSP went up to HW that they could beat Fedor. Even the people who coined the term pound for pound knew that smaller fighters would rarely beat bigger fighters and this is why even though they knew that Sugar Ray Robinson could beat anyone at his weightclass he wouldn't be able to beat a top HW. But because he as a middleweight was still a better quality fighter than any fighter fighting at heavier or lighter weights than him, SRR was the pound for pound best fighter.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

You guys know Mir doesn't mean if Fedor cut to 155? It's if all fighters had a frame that naturally fit to 155, Fedor would not beat BJ penn or GSP, which I may agree with.

*Damn I didn't read the second page, MLS handled it.


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## dAMIAn78 (Nov 16, 2006)

I never post, but I read the site every day and watch and read as much about MMA as I can. Mir is totally wrong on this, and I wouldn't doubt that he's somehow trying to antagonize a fight with Fedor. Plus he's trying to become a huge posterboy as well and you can't do that in the UFC if you admit that fighters in other orgs are better.

I've got Fedor as #1 P4P with A Silva extremely close second. Mir makes sense with saying that they should be viewed as if they were the same weight, but why 155, Fedor is a small HW often giving up lots of weight to his opponents. Let BJ or GSP or Silva fight guys 30 or so pounds heavier with height and reach advantages and see how they would do. Those guys fighting at HW would not be the same fighters, even if they possesed body types that were suited to fighting at that weight.

With that said, Nogueira wins via TKO(strikes).


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## Andreas Miko (May 28, 2007)

The way I see it

Anderson Silva is 22-4 
BJ Penn is 14-4-1 
Georges St-Pierre is 16-2

Fedor is 29-1-1, now when someone can beat Fedor and not by some techinallity of an illegal elbow with a cut stopage. Then we can have a conversation about P4P. Until then the man is the P4P champ.

Fedor seems to always be ready to fight and on an off day he still wins. These other guys have lost and that alone speaks for itself.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Not really?!?? Fedor is a HW and he may be the best heavyweight but to say the talent depth is as deep at HW as at LW is absurd its not even close.


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## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

I really don't agree with Mir.

Am I to understand that best P4P fighter in the world is only defined by the imagination of the person doing the ranking?

On paper, Fedor is undoubtedly the best fighter in the world.

Argue about opinions all you want, but who else has fought and dismantled as many top fighters as he has without being beaten once? Ever.

I'm looking forward to Big Nog steamrolling through him now.


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## daitrong (May 27, 2007)

objectively fedor is P4P best fighter in the world. Who has his fight undefeated record and has accomplished more in their MMA career than he? 

Subjectively that's a different story obviously. Anyone can make a case argument for X fighter being p4p, etc. 

Personally i think p4p rankings are unrealistic. If you subscribe to Mir's beliefs than p4p rankings will be a never ending argument. The fact of the matter is is that there is a weight class for a reason. Not everyone fights at the same weight so why bother to classify all fighters as if they do? It's like fantasizing about the dream fights that will never happen...and having a 15pg thread about who would win etc. I think Mir's jealous that he's not getting any love and has to divert the attention away from fedor.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

daitrong said:


> objectively fedor is P4P best fighter in the world. Who has his fight undefeated record and has accomplished more in their MMA career than he?
> 
> Subjectively that's a different story obviously. Anyone can make a case argument for X fighter being p4p, etc.
> 
> Personally i think p4p rankings are unrealistic. If you subscribe to Mir's beliefs than p4p rankings will be a never ending argument. The fact of the matter is is that there is a weight class for a reason. Not everyone fights at the same weight so why bother to classify all fighters as if they do? It's like fantasizing about the dream fights that will never happen...and having a 15pg thread about who would win etc. I think Mir's jealous that he's not getting any love and has to divert the attention away from fedor.


you're right about one thing. P4P lists are utterly useless.


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

For me, p4p is: you give a fighter a certain specific level of how good of a fighter (open weight wise) he is, and then divide that with his fighting weight. (Simply: the fighter divided by his own weight). It's by far the most mathematical approach and it would tell us literally how good a fighter is pond for pound (since the answer would be of the unit "fighting skill/strength per pound")

Problem is, it would be very hard to give a fighter a numerical rating, thus making this approach ungainly. It would, however, be the best way logially speaking.

I say can't we just say that we have an unranked top 5 (i.e. the estimated 5 best p4p fighters with no ranking between them), and the same with the number 6-10 p4p fighters. Cuse most of us think that Anderson, GSP, Fedor, BJ Penn belong in the top 5. We only argue aout where to rank them. So wouldn't it be better not to compare them to eachother? We would save a LOT of discussion time that way. (p4p arguments are starting to tire me out :thumb02


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

Joppp, would that just favor lightweights a ton? And since it's considered the heavier you are the more difficult it is to maintain technical ability it's somewhat counterproductive?


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

Pound for pound could be the stupidest argument ever. Noone will ever know who truly is better pound for pound so we should just stop arguing about it.

But I do understand what Mir is saying. I just having a hard time putting anyone ahead of Fedor because he has never been beaten. Unlike, BJ, Silva, and GSP who have multiple losses.


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## Shamrock-Ortiz (Sep 22, 2006)

jdun11 said:


> Pound for pound could be the stupidest argument ever. Noone will ever know who truly is better pound for pound so we should just stop arguing about it.


Not at all, there are plenty of things that won't happen or we won't ever know about - but we still speculate, and there is nothing wrong with doing so.

After all, this is a Forum.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Fedor isnt even on my top 10 p4p list. 

I did put him on my top 10 quickest ways to die in russia list.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Toxic said:


> Not really?!?? Fedor is a HW and he may be the best heavyweight but to say the talent depth is as deep at HW as at LW is absurd its not even close.


To me, "P4P"---as ambiguous as it may be---notes the ability of a fighter to go up and down in weight and remain successful. Who here is going to say that Fedor couldn't go down to LHW and beat everyone?


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> To me, "P4P"---as ambiguous as it may be---notes the ability of a fighter to go up and down in weight and remain successful. Who here is going to say that Fedor couldn't go down to LHW and beat everyone?


well to say that would be majorly speculating.

I'd say a lot of light heavyweights could class up and be successful without gaining an ounce.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

69nites said:


> well to say that would be majorly speculating.
> 
> I'd say a lot of light heavyweights could class up and be successful without gaining an ounce.


Well, "pound for pound" is a term that refers to "major speculation" so I don't think it's entirely fallacious of me to...well... speculate lol.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> Well, "pound for pound" is a term that refers to "major speculation" so I don't think it's entirely fallacious of me to...well... speculate lol.


I'd be inclined to agree with you.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> To me, "P4P"---as ambiguous as it may be---notes the ability of a fighter to go up and down in weight and remain successful.


So your definition pretty much contradicts the definition that the people who came up with pound for pound used.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

MLS said:


> So your definition pretty much contradicts the definition that the people who came up with pound for pound used.


Could you explain who came up with this term? I'd really like to know so I could RHK them


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

http://www.ringsidebygus.com/boxing-terms.html


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Could you explain who came up with this term? I'd really like to know so I could RHK them


People came up with it to describe Sugar Ray Robinson. This is what I posted earlier here or in another thread.



MLS said:


> Even the people who coined the term pound for pound knew that smaller fighters would rarely beat bigger fighters and this is why even though they knew that Sugar Ray Robinson could beat anyone at his weightclass he wouldn't be able to beat a top HW. But because he as a middleweight was still a better quality fighter than any fighter fighting at heavier or lighter weights than him, SRR was the pound for pound best fighter.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

MLS said:


> People came up with it to describe Sugar Ray Robinson. This is what I posted earlier here or in another thread.


Thanks for providing that. I think it's going to be especially difficult with regard to MMA because there's simply so much to consider, not just the striking (which is the main focus of determining the best P4P boxer). 

If we're looking at technique and sheer skills vs skills, I'd still wager that Fedor is ahead of the pack.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> Thanks for providing that. I think it's going to be especially difficult with regard to MMA because there's simply so much to consider, not just the striking (which is the main focus of determining the best P4P boxer).
> 
> If we're looking at technique and sheer skills vs skills, I'd still wager that Fedor is ahead of the pack.


when you're in the highest weight class you don't have to add the P4P. if you're the best you'd just be the best in the world.

well except that the skillset of heavyweights in MMA is very limited


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## Sinister (Nov 19, 2007)

69nites said:


> when you're in the highest weight class you don't have to add the P4P. if you're the best you'd just be the best in the world.
> 
> well except that the skillset of heavyweights in MMA is very limited


If that theory were even close to being true, I guess you would consider Butterbean or Hong Man Choi the best P4P world:confused03: Just because you weigh more, doesn't make you a better fighter, or have the better fighters.

P4P in MMA is just too damn hard to call, there are way too many factors to put into place to decide an overall #1, #2, #3 etc. etc. One night, one fighters BJJ and takedowns might be on and could easily overwelm a striker, while the next fight that striker's TDD and striking skills could KTFO out of the grappler.

That's why in boxing it is much easier to declare a P4P King, simply because boxing doesn't have a vast amount of fightings styles to account for.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

Sinister said:


> If that theory were even close to being true, I guess you would consider Butterbean or Hong Man Choi the best P4P world:confused03: Just because you weigh more, doesn't make you a better fighter, or have the better fighters.
> 
> P4P in MMA is just too damn hard to call, there are way too many factors to put into place to decide an overall #1, #2, #3 etc. etc. One night, one fighters BJJ and takedowns might be on and could easily overwelm a striker, while the next fight that striker's TDD and striking skills could KTFO out of the grappler.
> 
> That's why in boxing it is much easier to declare a P4P King, simply because boxing doesn't have a vast amount of fightings styles to account for.


well I doubt lightweights are going to be taking heavyweights any time soon .

The P4P term was made for the lower weight class fighters. Not heavyweights. You can take BJ penn or GSP and pit them against even a mediocer heavyweight and they're not likely to do very well. they have a better skillset it's just hard to use it against a trained fighter who weighs 100 lbs more than you. It's the reason we have weight classes.

I still think it's a retarded concept all together.


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## Sinister (Nov 19, 2007)

I never said a lightweight would take out a heavyweight. 

The P4P term wasn't created just for the lower weight classes, back when fighters were known as the P4P Best Boxer's in the World, it was to establish that while they could have beat anyone in their weight class, but fighting someone in a heavier weight class just wasn't going to happen, but their skill set and technique was much more fluent they proved to be the quality fighter other fighters couldn't establish in other divisions. Floyd Mayweather Jr. is a perfect example. Could he beat Kiltschov(sp?)? Hell no. But his style, technique, everything he does is something Kiltschov doesn't display as well as Floyd does and did better than anyone else in boxing and that's why he was the P4P best boxer in the world.

Hence why Mir doesn't think Fedor is the P4P King of MMA, due to Fedor's ground game. It's not very technical or fluent as a Big Nog or Penn, he's just very physical and can man handle almost anyone he grapples with.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Sinister said:


> Hence why Mir doesn't think Fedor is the P4P King of MMA, due to Fedor's ground game. It's not very technical or fluent as a Big Nog or Penn, he's just very physical and can man handle almost anyone he grapples with.


There's really nothing you can say that's bad about Fedor's ground game, he sticks with the bread and butter submissions of MMA and has an incredible success rate with them. Personally, I think he has the best ground game in MMA.


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## TERMINATOR (Jul 6, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Thats how I have always considered P4P to mean, I 100% agree with Mir.


I agree too. He is just making a point it doesnt mean anything different just because he said at 155. He could of said 170 185 205 ir whatever. If every fighter in the world weighed the same who would be the best its simple people. Mir is 100% correct.


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## Sinister (Nov 19, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> There's really nothing you can say that's bad about Fedor's ground game, he sticks with the bread and butter submissions of MMA and has an incredible success rate with them. Personally, I think he has the best ground game in MMA.


I wasn't implying his ground game was bad at all, I even said he tools anyone on the ground. But when you watch him on the ground, while it works very effectively just doesn't look like a very technical style.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Sinister said:


> I wasn't implying his ground game was bad at all, I even said he tools anyone on the ground. But when you watch him on the ground, while it works very effectively just doesn't look like a very technical style.


Don't get me wrong, I wasn't accusing you of that at all. I just think Fedor's proven that a very rudimentary style of submission grappling (keylocks, americanas, armbars, etc) can be more effective in MMA than more technical maneuvers found in BJJ (triangle-chokes, gogoplatas, etc).


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## cdnbaron (Jan 17, 2007)

Frank Mir: "I don't have Fedor being in the top..."
Me: "That's funny, I don't have Frank Mir deserving a title shot."

Also, P4P rankings are biased against heavier fighters. They always look at what a smaller fighter would gain from being bigger (namely power) and what a bigger fighter would lose if they were smaller (again, power). However, they usually don't talk about the explosiveness a big guy would gain by being smaller, or the explosiveness a smaller guy would lose by being bigger. And you can't really say that "if they had the same attributes they have at their current weight..." because that's just not how it works. Smaller guys have attributes (speed, explosiveness, etc) that big guys don't and vice versa. You'd have to look at everything proportionally, and it's just way too hard to do objectively. And why just because P4P rankings were created for smaller fighters mean that a big guy can't be first?


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## Zemelya (Sep 23, 2007)

Mir let his imagination run wild on this one... 

How the **** can you image that Fedor is 155, see him loosing and believe in that crap you just imagined ??????? 
To me all those guys are close to each other BUT Fedor's got much more experience than any of them, and he is just so fuken fluent in his game that it's ridiculous.
I'd say Anderson is sharing the same #1 spot with Fedor. Those guys are beyond limits and any comparison, both of them transition from stand up to ground as if it was the same thing, both guys are expressionless and you can't tell at all what's going to be happening. It's impossible to compare them, unless you're pretty good with imagination like Mir (he should write books, Lord of the Rings IV and V sounds good)


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