# Rank The 5 Best LWs In The World.... And Explain Why...



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

*THIS IS WHAT I THINK THE WORLD LW PICTURE IS LOOKING LIKE RIGHT NOW... I'VE POSTED MY OPINION AS TO WHY... 

IF YOU HAVE THEM RANKED DIFFERENTLY POST YOUR LIST...



#1.) FRANKIE "THE ANSWER" EDGAR UFC LW CHAMPION










TO BE THE MAN YOU'VE GOT TO BEAT THE MAN.... AND FRANKIE DID THAT TWICE.. SICK WRESTLING, PROBABLY THE MOST TECHNICAL STANDUP AT LW IN THE UFC....

NOTABLE LW VICTORIES

B.J. PENN
SEAN SHERK
TYSON GRIFFIN 
JIM MILLER



#2.) GILBERT "EL NINO" MELENDEZ  STRIKEFORCE LW CHAMPION










SAME CAN BE SAID FOR GILBERT... BEFORE SHINYAS LOSS TO "EL NINO" AOKI WAS WIDLEY RANKED AT #2 IN THE WORLD... GILBERT DOMINATED AOKI... HE'S ALSO THE ONLY LW IN THE TOP 5 IN THE WORLD THAT HAS AVENGED HIS LOSSES...

NOTABLE LW VICTORIES

SHINYA AOKI
JOSH THOMPSON
TATSUYA KAWAJIRI
MITSUHIRO ISHIDA
CLAY GUIDA

#3) B.J."THE PRODIGY" PENN










ARGUABLY #2 IN THE WORLD AND STAYS IN THE TOP 3 ON MY LIST BECAUSE OF HIS HIGH PROFILE FIGHTS AND ABILITY TO FINISH HIS OPPONENTS... CAN'T PUT HIM AT #2 BECAUSE 2 BACK TO BACK UNANIMOUS DECISIONS DO HURT YOUR RANKING.....AND UNLIKE GILBERT MELENDEZ HE WAS UNABLE TO AVENGE HIS LOSS AND RECLAIM HIS TITLE..


NOTABLE LW VICTORIES

DIEGO SANCHEZ
SEAN SHERK
TAKANORI GOMI
KENNY FLORIAN
DIN THOMAS*

[*B]#4.) GREY "THE BULLY" MAYANRD*[/B]










*UNDEFEATED. HOLDS A VICTORY OVER THE UFC CHAMP...HE CAN LOOK LACK LUSTER IN SOME OF HIS OUTINGS.... AND HE'S NOT A FINISHER, BUT HE'S WINNING.. #1 CONTENDER FOR UFC LW TITLE


NOTABLE LW VICTORIES

FRANKIE EDGAR
KENNY FLORIAN
NATHAN DIAZ
ROGER HUERTA
JIM MILLER*

_*#5) SHINYA "Tobikan Judan" Aoki*_










*SHINYA STAYS IN THE TOP FIVE BASED ON HIS NOTABLE VICTORIES AND HIS ABILITY TO FINISH FIGHTS... HIS SUBMISSION SKILLS AND KILLER INSTINCT ARE INCREDIBLE AND I ONLY RANKED GRAY MAYNARD OVER HIM BECAUSE OF MAYNARDS WIN OVER EDGAR...

NOTABLE LW VICTORIES

EDDIE ALVAREZ
TATSUYA KAWAJIRI
GEORGE SOTIROLOPOUS
JZ CALVANCANTE
JOACHIM HANSEN
CAOL UNO
VITOR RIBERIO*


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

1. Frankie Edgar
2. BJ Penn
3. Gilbert Melendez
4. Gray Maynard
5. Kenny Florian


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

I'd switch 2 and 4. Melendez's level of competition is not nearly as high as Penn's or Maynard's. Aoki is highly overrated and his one dimensional style would not work in american mma.

1. Edgar
2. Maynard
3. Penn
4. Milendez
5. Florian


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

switch 2 and 4 and you got my list. as has been said before grey has fought and beat higher level of competition including edger and is still undefeated.


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## Tweak (Aug 28, 2010)

Aoki's win on Soti was not notable.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Tweak said:


> Aoki's win on Soti was not notable.


By that logic Matt Hamil's win over Jon Jones isn't notable. Wait a minute you might be onto something here. We saw what Melendez did to Aoki Edgar, Maynard, Penn, and Florian would be him just as easily.


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Im still suprised people arent giving Aoki much credit. 
The man has the best grappling in the lightweight division imo. 
I mean Aoki has beaten more World champs than BJ
Penn: Sherk, Hughes, Sanchez, Uno, Pulver, Gomi, Serra
Aoki:Kawajiri,JZ,Hansen,Hirota,Ribero,Alveraz,Uno,Kikuchi (1-1 with Jake Sheilds)
Yes I understand that Aoki needs to work on striking but just because he lost to Melendez he is a scrub and overrated? I swear MMA fan cant stay loyal for shit.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

The Amarok said:


> Im still suprised people arent giving Aoki much credit.
> The man has the best grappling in the lightweight division imo.
> I mean Aoki has beaten more World champs than BJ
> Penn: Sherk, Hughes, Sanchez, Uno, Pulver, Gomi, Serra
> ...


Aoki is not the best at grappling. While he is good if someone engages him, without his little pants he is incapable of getting the top of the division fighters to the ground. 

What world champs has Aoki ever beaten? 

You inexplicably left Stevenson and Florain off of BJ's list.

Also most of the guys you listed have fought mostly in Japan. These guys fight lesser competition over there and build up their records, but can't hang with the elite in the UFC or Strikeforce. Melendez easily beat Aoki and Edgar, Penn, Maynard, and Florian would beat him easily as well.


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Aoki is not the best at grappling. While he is good if someone engages him, without his little pants he is incapable of getting the top of the division fighters to the ground.
> 
> What world champs has Aoki ever beaten?
> 
> ...


what world titles in MMA has Stevenson and Florian won? 
Please dont tell your counting TUF as a world titles yea right. 
How is it that there is lesser comp in Japan. Everytime i check fighters that try to swing over to Japan dont do so.
If that was the case how come Melendaz couldnt beat Ishida the 1st time? Or Randleman beat Nakamura, Liddell beating Rampage. I could go on and on with this list but the Nationalism and Elitism is highly evident in your post. As far as im concerned its a two way street. Think about how many U.S champs are there in Japan? If they were so good then maybe they can reign supreme but they dont. If jake sheilds was so good, how come he couldnt keep is Shooto title?:confused02:


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

First and foremost anybody that thinks that Kenny Florian is above Shinya Aoki in the top 5 really hasn't seen Shinyas carreer.

Second there are many fighters who win in Japan and do so in the U.S. as well...

Eddie Alvarez
Shogun
Jake Shields
Nick Diaz
Yushin Okami
Fabricio Werdum
B.J. Penn
Lyoto Machida

to name a few were picking up wins in Japan and doing well for themselves stateside as well.




The Amarok said:


> How is it that there is lesser comp in Japan. Everytime i check fighters that try to swing over to Japan dont do so.


Sometimes there just seems to be a jinx between both. I wouldn't say that one region has superior fighters. Not for a second.





The Amarok said:


> If that was the case how come Melendaz couldnt beat Ishida.


You need to watch that fight. Melendez was robbed. Gilbert won that fight. And came back and avenged that loss. 




The Amarok said:


> Or Randleman beat Nakamura, Liddell beating Rampage. I could go on and on with this list but the Nationalism and Elitism is highly evident in your post.


I'm glad you pointed this out. You can't say that the greatest are fighting in the U.S. you can only say that your "favorites" are fighting in the U.S. 

Because like them or not Shinya Aoki and Kawajiri would vandalize the UFCs LW division. I think Kawajiri would bulldoze everybody outside of B.J. Penn and Edgar.... and he'd have a very close fight with Edgar.

Aoki vs Penn...... I really couldn't call a winner.



The Amarok said:


> As far as im concerned its a two way street. Think about how many U.S champs are there in Japan? If they were so good then maybe they can reign supreme but they dont. If jake sheilds was so good, how come he couldnt keep is Shooto title?:confused02:


Are you saying that if Anderson Silva is so great than why did he lose 2 of his PRIDE fights?


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

drunken rant:

goddamn it.. maynard doesnt stand a chance against the others. not in a real fight, not a goddamn chance in hell against the others. do you know what they can do to a human body? by the third round maynard would lose control of his bowls. he'd be pissing and shitting himself in front of his friends and relatives. its a loss he'd never live down. not until the day he died. it'd be pathetic and goddamn terrible.


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## LuckyPunch (Aug 31, 2010)

1. Edgar- champion and beat BJ tiwce

2. Maynard - boring fighter but undefeated

3. Melendez 

4. Gomi - I just like this guy (biased)

5. Eddie Alvarez


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

*I personally find it interesting how B.J. was the #1 LW in the world and loses a razor close decison in their first fight with Edgar who wasn't even top 5 at the time...


Than comes back to the rematch and gets completley outclassed, dropping two fights in a row and is still top 5....

Than you got Shinya Aoki who was #2 gets beaten by the guy who was #5 at the time (Melendez) and returns to literally tear Kawajiris foot off his leg in an excellent reshowing of why he's so dangerous, sending Kawajiri to the hospital .... and yet he's out of the top 5 still?

That is absolutly ridiculous.

Shinya Aoki is a monster, and way underrated if you don't see him as top 5 IMO.*


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> *I personally find it interesting how B.J. was the #1 LW in the world and loses a razor close decison in their first fight with Edgar who wasn't even top 5 at the time...
> 
> 
> Than comes back to the rematch and gets completley outclassed, dropping two fights in a row and is still top 5....
> ...


Cause Aoki sucks. Face it Aoki outclasses crap opponents in Japan cause the refs let him scoot around on his ass. Aoki loses to even gatekeepers like Joe Stevenson in the UFC because the refs won't favor him the way they do in Japan. Plain and simple Aoki would fall out of the top 10 completely if he started fighting full time in the US.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Cause Aoki sucks. Face it Aoki outclasses crap opponents in Japan cause the refs let him scoot around on his ass. Aoki loses to even gatekeepers like Joe Stevenson in the UFC because the refs won't favor him the way they do in Japan. Plain and simple Aoki would fall out of the top 10 completely if he started fighting full time in the US.


You're in the clouds if you think Joe Stephenson beats Aoki. And the "ref favortism" card is a joke.... I saw him bootyscoot Alvarez to a heel hook but I've seen alot of Aokis fights and he's not getting babied by judges...

Shinya would hurt Joe. And he'd make a joke out of Kenny.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Butt scooting will never ever work in a cage. Ever. In a ring at least you can cut off the ring and use the corners you can't even do that in a cage. Joe would pick Aoki apart standing and just walk away from butt scootin boogie.. Kenny would tear Aoki apart worse than Mach did. Face it Aoki has no chance outside Japan against any top 15 LW.


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

i mean the only "legit" ranking i go by now is fightmatrix. They have Aoki at 2. I personally beileve he should be at 3 behide Melendez and Edgar 
1.Edgar
2. Melendaz
3. Aoki
4.Maynard
5. Alveraz
People are giving BJ too much of a benefit of a doubt. 2 straight losses to the same guy, HE OUT OFTHE TOP FIVE. These guys in my top 5 are dominant right now. If BJ wants back in, he is gonna have to earn like everybody else has. Nobody gets special treament is MMA rankings (unless its Zuffadog, i mean Sherdog). Hell to this day i believe that Werdum is the number heavyweight in the world. Despite his past defeats he sumbitted Fedor. He beat the best, therefore he is the best and there aint no way around it. Unless Brock defeat Werdum or Werdum retires then Brock is the number 2 Heavyweight in the world, despite holding the UFC belt. 
That the one thing I dont get, is how Zuffa fighters get the best treatment in the rankings. Why is that?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Even Alvarez who has he really beat? Honestly I think Huerta is the toughest challenge Alvarez has faced in his MMA career. Sadly I also think Aoki's biggest win is over an overrated Alvarez. 

Fighters in the UFC I think beat Shinya Aoki,

BJ,
Edgar, 
Kenny,
Diego,
Maynard
Stevenson
Sotty
Nate Diaz
Guida
Gomi
Griffen
Sherk


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Even Alvarez who has he really beat? Honestly I think Huerta is the toughest challenge Alvarez has faced in his MMA career. Sadly I also think Aoki's biggest win is over an overrated Alvarez.
> 
> Fighters in the UFC I think beat Shinya Aoki,
> 
> ...


I think its the other way around if THEY want Aoki's top ten spot, THEY have to beat Aoki. You got it all sorts of twisted. And there are several things wrong with that list beside the UFC favoritism
1. No Ben Henderson?
2.We seen what happens when Joe daddy goes up against a good grappler, imagation what happens if Aoki gets a hold of him
3. Sanchez is Welterweight
4.Griffen? Really?
5 Gomi has shown that the ground game is his weakness. Aoki would just make it more obvious
4.Nate Diaz is welterweight
5.If Ken-flo doesnt get stage fright, he might stand a chance
6. Guida is too damn reckless, Ken-Flo made him pay.
7. If Sherk can layoff the juice. And beside his only wins worth metion is over Karo, Gamburyan, Ken-Flo and Franca. All by descions and by most peoples standard (not mine) that not all that impressive is it?
Soti, Edgar, Maynard and maybe BJ at this point are the only legit compition teh UFC has for Aoki.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

The Amarok said:


> I think its the other way around if THEY want Aoki's top ten spot, THEY have to beat Aoki. You got it all sorts of twisted. And there are several things wrong with that list beside the UFC favoritism


 Its not UFC favoritism I just think Aoki is garbage. I think there are more SF fighters besides Melendez who whoop him to, like Thompson and Noons.
*
1. No Ben Henderson? *I was just saying who in the UFC would beat him, I also think Bendo could but that is neither here nor there.
*2.We seen what happens when Joe daddy goes up against a good grappler, imagation what happens if Aoki gets a hold of him 

* Its a lot easier to avoid somebody when you not worried about them punching you in the face, Kenny threatened with strikes which makes it much easier to take somebody down.

*3. Sanchez is Welterweight* He fought at LW before and should be moving back after his last fight.
*
4.Griffen? Really?* Griffen has faily good boxing and good enough wrestling to prevent being taken down. Your really underestimating how much easier it is to stuff a TD when you know what they are trying. Why do you think Maia had nothing for Silva?
*
5 Gomi has shown that the ground game is his weakness. Aoki would just make it more obvious* If Gomi is on he can avoid the TD long enough to knock Aoki out. This one is admittedly little iffy because it depends on how Gomi shows up.
*4.Nate Diaz is welterweight* He had two fights at WW and despite the fact I think its a better fit for him he has stated he intends to move back down. 
*5.If Ken-flo doesnt get stage fright, he might stand a chance* This is the kind of fight Kenny is made for its not stage fright Kenny just looks great kicking B fighters asses.
*6. Guida is too damn reckless, Ken-Flo made him pay.*
Again Kenny is dangerous cause he can stand and grapple, the fact Aoki can't threaten with Strikes makes his game so predictable that he is easy to avoid.
*7. If Sherk can layoff the juice. And beside his only wins worth metion is over Karo, Gamburyan, Ken-Flo and Franca. All by descions and by most peoples standard (not mine) that not all that impressive is it?* Sherk has great wrestling and solid boxing, Aoki is no taking him down which means he is getting peppered. Every single one of Sherks losses is to a former of current champ, he has wins over Tyson Griffen, Karo, Kenny, Nick Diaz and Benji Radach. Sherk is a tough SOB and people seem to have forgotten just how good Sherk was.

S*oti, Edgar, Maynard and maybe BJ at this point are the only legit compition teh UFC has for Aoki.*

Aoki doesn't stand a chance against any of those guys, BJ would decimate Aoki so bad it wouldn't even be funny. BJ is probably just as good a grappler as Aoki never mind the top notch TD defense and packing more than enough stand up skill and power to send Aoki's lights out. If Mach made him bawl like a baby BJ would make him cry like a 5 year old girl who has been covered in gasoline and lit on fire.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Butt scooting will never ever work in a cage. Ever. In a ring at least you can cut off the ring and use the corners you can't even do that in a cage. Joe would pick Aoki apart standing and just walk away from butt scootin boogie.. Kenny would tear Aoki apart worse than Mach did. Face it Aoki has no chance outside Japan against any top 15 LW.


He did it against Eddie. That's not how he gets fighters down Toxic.

Aoki can pull guard on an opponent by getting a hold of even a wrist, he's that dangerous.

He would maul 13 of the guys you listed. Joe Stevenson outboxing Aoki wouldn't happen for a second.

Joe would try to come in with that standard boxing style that has never been effective against *ANY* elite fighter and Aoki would get a hold of a part of his body and tear it off or choke him out. 

LOL @ Joe Stevenson being able to defeat Aoki. 

And Shinya Aoki has every chance outside of Japan at the top 15. That includes Eddie Alvarez again.

21 of his 25 wins are by stoppage. He's got sick killer instinct. You're way wrong on this one.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> He did it against Eddie. That's not how he gets fighters down Toxic.
> 
> Aoki can pull guard on an opponent by getting a hold of even a wrist, he's that dangerous.
> 
> ...


How many times did he grab hold of Melendez and use that "killer instinct" None because its all he has and everyone knows it. Instead he just kept scooting around on his butt looking like a small child throwing a temper tantrum. Even when Melenzez recklessly dove into his guard Aoki failed to really mount any kind of offense. Face it Aoki is a great BJJ guy without any ability to get the fight down or strike to set up a TD. Aoki fighting Gilbert Melendez looked like Thales Leites trying to fight Anderson Silva if Leites somehow could have been even more terrified of Silva.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

The Amarok said:


> what world titles in MMA has Stevenson and Florian won?
> Please dont tell your counting TUF as a world titles yea right.


My point was that none of the fighters you mentioned outside of Penn, Edgar, and Melendez have held a title that means anything. 



The Amarok said:


> How is it that there is lesser comp in Japan. Everytime i check fighters that try to swing over to Japan dont do so.
> If that was the case how come Melendaz couldnt beat Ishida the 1st time? Or Randleman beat Nakamura, Liddell beating Rampage. I could go on and on with this list but the Nationalism and Elitism is highly evident in your post. As far as im concerned its a two way street. Think about how many U.S champs are there in Japan? If they were so good then maybe they can reign supreme but they dont. If jake sheilds was so good, how come he couldnt keep is Shooto title?:confused02:


It's not nationalism it's the truth. When I am referring to Japan's promotions, I am talking about post PRIDE. During PRIDE Japan did have a lot of viable talent. Also Randleman isn't any good by the way. Rampage fights in the UFC, so maybe you should go on and on. Oh also Melendez was robbed against Ishida. The reason why there aren't US champs in Japan is that the best fighters are here, so they don't go there to fight lesser competition. Jake Shields was not a top fighter 6 years ago. Fighters take time to develop. Is that the best you can do? Find a fight from 6 years ago? 

As far as Japanese promotion stars, lets look at some that happened recently and not 6 years ago:

Zaromskis lost twice in Strikeforce
We found out that King Mo and Moussasi aren't as good as Feijao
And of course Aoki got owned by Melendez.



The Amarok said:


> I think its the other way around if THEY want Aoki's top ten spot, THEY have to beat Aoki. You got it all sorts of twisted. And there are several things wrong with that list beside the UFC favoritism
> 1. No Ben Henderson?
> 2.We seen what happens when Joe daddy goes up against a good grappler, imagation what happens if Aoki gets a hold of him
> 3. Sanchez is Welterweight
> ...


1. Ben Henderson could whip Aoki too
2. Joe Daddy wouldn't grapple. He'd simply use his wrestling not to get taken down and punch Aoki Melendez stle.
3. For now he is, but he hasn't faired too well, so he might move back down.
4. Griffen's wrestling would keep him standing, because Aoki can't take anyone down. US refs don't allow butt scooting. So he gets picked apart just like he did against Melendez.
5. Again Aoki can't get Gomi down

I decided to use numbers correctly

6. Nate Diaz said that he would like to move back down to LW for some big fights.

6. Guida would punch Aoki not go to the ground with him
7. Kenny wouldn't be afraid of a Aoki, because he's less dangerous than Gomi. 
8. Really you still believe that Sherk tested positive? A win is win, it doesn't matter if it's a decision.
9. You're right that Edgar, Penn, and Soti would beat him, but so would Dunham.


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> My point was that none of the fighters you mentioned outside of Penn, Edgar, and Melendez have held a title that means anything.


A world titles is a world title regardless of the Promotion. To say otherwise insults every none UFC champion.
So Overeem, Fedor, Bigfoot, Hansen Mousasi,KID, etc are garbage because their not Zuffa fighter.
That is the biggest double standard I ever heard. If GSP, Silva, Shogun and Lensar were to loss their respective titles did they have a bad night? Was it a fluck? Did their oppenant cheat? NO
More than likey Zuffa writers i.e Sherdog would say that they had some BS injury, they werent in top form and every other excuse they can come up with. But when a top ten fighter outside of Zuffa loses a fight he is a "can" i.e Fedor, Aoki, Mousasi, King Mo etc. SUCH BULLSHIT. The lack of equality amoung rankings is whats tearing up MMA these days. Every biased " Zuffa Zombie" (bloodstainlane came up with that one) writer and blogger has to bash fighters outside the UFC and the reason people believe them is because there is some many writers doing it.
Its bias posts like yours and Zuffa Zombie writers like them that make your arguement less convincing.
Worst then FOX news, I swear.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Toxic said:


> How many times did he grab hold of Melendez and use that "killer instinct" None because its all he has and everyone knows it. Instead he just kept scooting around on his butt looking like a small child throwing a temper tantrum. Even when Melenzez recklessly dove into his guard Aoki failed to really mount any kind of offense. Face it Aoki is a great BJJ guy without any ability to get the fight down or strike to set up a TD. Aoki fighting Gilbert Melendez looked like Thales Leites trying to fight Anderson Silva if Leites somehow could have been even more terrified of Silva.


The answer to your question is easy Toxic. It's because Gilbert Melendez had an excellent game plan and is obviously better than Aoki. Which is why he's ranked higher.

Okay I see your logic here. So basically B.J. Penn has absolutly no BJJ what so ever because he was able to do absolutly nothing with Frankie Edgar on the ground. 

As a matter of fact he has zero striking as well since he was getting tooled on his feet, because if he was world class in those areas he would have destroyed Frankie Edgar.

Also he has no TDD because he was getting slammed on his ass time after time..

I got you. I think Joe Stevenson could probably beat Penn too.... but wait...


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> The answer to your question is easy Toxic. It's because Gilbert Melendez had an excellent game plan and is obviously better than Aoki.
> 
> Okay I see your logic here. So basically B.J. Penn has absolutly no BJJ what so ever because he was able to do absolutly nothing with Frankie Edgar on the ground.
> 
> ...


Don't twist this, I fail to see how you cannot watch Aoki's past fights and not realize how much he is babied by the Japanese MMA community and how the failure of the Japanese to force a stand up plays into his hands. There is no chance of him finding any success in the global MMA community until he works extensively on his stand up to at least get it up to a mediocre passable level and he needs to work a lot on his wrestling.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Don't twist this, I fail to see how you cannot watch Aoki's past fights and not realize how much he is babied by the Japanese MMA community and how the failure of the Japanese to force a stand up plays into his hands. There is no chance of him finding any success in the global MMA community until he works extensively on his stand up to at least get it up to a mediocre passable level and he needs to work a lot on his wrestling.


Nah you're the one twisting it. I gave you an exact and perfect example of what you were saying. 

The shoe fits on both feet. They both freakin suck. Matter of fact any fighter who's ever had his game played better sucks in the mma community...

Good thing A Silva pulled off that triangle or he'd suck too.


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## Alex_DeLarge (Sep 5, 2006)

1. Edgar
2. Melendez
3. Maynard
4. Penn
5. Alvarez


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Nah you're the one twisting it. I gave you an exact and perfect example of what you were saying.
> 
> The shoe fits on both feet. They both freakin suck. Matter of fact any fighter who's ever had his game played better sucks in the mma community...
> 
> Good thing A Silva pulled off that triangle or he'd suck too.


No Aoki's problem has he only has one game and he is not that good at getting the fight down. He needs it down but can't do it. its incredibly hard to take a guy down when you do not have good take downs and you can't even strike good enough to set it up. I would call his striking horrible but fighters like Demian Maia with horrible striking would be offended. Andy fighter in the US with a wrestling base is gonna be able to keep it standing, any fighter with a good jab is gonna be able to maintain distance. Alvarez would beat Aoki down if that fight happened in SF (I still think Alvarez is a little overrated as well). The unified rules get a lot of flack for favoring wrestlers but the Japanese scene is just as bad for favoring Aoki. How does he not earn a yellow card scooting around on his butt? Aoki is the single most overrated fighter not only in the LHW division but in MMA overall. In a grappling match Aoki could probably destroy 99% of the division (really BJ and Vitor Riberio are the only real challenges I can see) but in MMA he should be forced to bring the fight there not just scoot around on his butt throwing a temper tantrum trying to get the fight to the ground. I don't understand how the japanese can punish wrestlers for stalling if they just hold there opponent down to prevent them from doing anything from the bottom but allow Aoki to scoot on his butt in order merely prevent his opponent from being able to expose his shit striking. Actually I do understand its blatant favortism for there poster boy.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Nah you're the one twisting it. I gave you an exact and perfect example of what you were saying.
> 
> The shoe fits on both feet. They both freakin suck. Matter of fact any fighter who's ever had his game played better sucks in the mma community...
> 
> Good thing A Silva pulled off that triangle or he'd suck too.


The difference is that Anderson Silva and BJ Penn have been fighting top competition. Aoki has been fighting lesser competition in Japan for a long time. As soon as he stepped up to good competition, he got owned.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Toxic said:


> No Aoki's problem has he only has one game and he is not that good at getting the fight down. He needs it down but can't do it. its incredibly hard to take a guy down when you do not have good take downs and you can't even strike good enough to set it up. I would call his striking horrible but fighters like Demian Maia with horrible striking would be offended. Andy fighter in the US with a wrestling base is gonna be able to keep it standing, any fighter with a good jab is gonna be able to maintain distance. Alvarez would beat Aoki down if that fight happened in SF (I still think Alvarez is a little overrated as well). The unified rules get a lot of flack for favoring wrestlers but the Japanese scene is just as bad for favoring Aoki. How does he not earn a yellow card scooting around on his butt? Aoki is the single most overrated fighter not only in the LHW division but in MMA overall. In a grappling match Aoki could probably destroy 99% of the division (really BJ and Vitor Riberio are the only real challenges I can see) but in MMA he should be forced to bring the fight there not just scoot around on his butt throwing a temper tantrum trying to get the fight to the ground. I don't understand how the japanese can punish wrestlers for stalling if they just hold there opponent down to prevent them from doing anything from the bottom but allow Aoki to scoot on his butt in order merely prevent his opponent from being able to expose his shit striking. Actually I do understand its blatant favortism for there poster boy.


Aoki not only shoots in but he jumps and pulls guard from almost any standing position.



rockybalboa25 said:


> The difference is that Anderson Silva and BJ Penn have been fighting top competition. Aoki has been fighting lesser competition in Japan for a long time. As soon as he stepped up to good competition, he got owned.


JZ, Ribiero, Alvarez, and Kawajiri are excellent competition to name a few. 
Aoki lost to Melendez because Melendez is that good.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Aoki not only shoots in but he jumps and pulls guard from almost any standing position.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


JZ, Ribiero, Alvarez, and Kawajiri are ranked high why? Because they beat some lesser competition in Japan? They are not top competition. They have never beaten a top fighter in Strikeforce or the UFC and they never will. It's a house of cards. Aoki is good because he beat these guys. These guys are good because they beat other lesser fighters in Japan. When you start with the fact that the other guys they beat aren't any good. The whole thing falls down. Aoki and Ribiero each lost in their only fight in Strikeforce. Alavarez's toughest fight was against thompson, and he lost.


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> JZ, Ribiero, Alvarez, and Kawajiri are ranked high why? Because they beat some lesser competition in Japan? They are not top competition. They have never beaten a top fighter in Strikeforce or the UFC and they never will. It's a house of cards. Aoki is good because he beat these guys. These guys are good because they beat other lesser fighters in Japan. When you start with the fact that the other guys they beat aren't any good. The whole thing falls down. Aoki and Ribiero each lost in their only fight in Strikeforce. Alavarez's toughest fight was against thompson, and he lost.


isnt that how everyone starts out? Didnt Anderson start out fightin g lesser comp, there is a laundry list of top tier fighters, in and outside the UFC, that starts out that way. you think gsp started with rich franklin or evan tanner as his first match? hell no. so by your logic if we start out fighting lesser comp then we suck? its a chain basically. one guy who has fought lesser comp fights another guy who "crushed cans", this fight determines the best. over time this will accumilate and the talent wiil get deeper. this same guys that were top dog back in the day (coleman) will be the stepping stone for the mma stars of tommorrow. Guys like Aoki, Alveraz, Edgar etc, are the new stars of today. BJ Penn was the steppin stone for Edgar as Hughes was to Penn. Its all a cycle that wont be broken.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

The Amarok said:


> isnt that how everyone starts out? Didnt Anderson start out fightin g lesser comp, there is a laundry list of top tier fighters, in and outside the UFC, that starts out that way. you think gsp started with rich franklin or evan tanner as his first match? hell no. so by your logic if we start out fighting lesser comp then we suck? its a chain basically. one guy who has fought lesser comp fights another guy who "crushed cans", this fight determines the best. over time this will accumilate and the talent wiil get deeper. this same guys that were top dog back in the day (coleman) will be the stepping stone for the mma stars of tommorrow. Guys like Aoki, Alveraz, Edgar etc, are the new stars of today. BJ Penn was the steppin stone for Edgar as Hughes was to Penn. Its all a cycle that wont be broken.


You are talking about getting started. Aoki is not getting started; he is well into his career. GSP fought his way up and then took on the best in his division. Aoki started fighting cans, and then went on to fight guys who were descent. Other than Melendez he has yet to fight top guys, so he doesn't deserve to be top 5. Aoki never beat any of those other fighters to propel him stardom. I don't think you can consider BJ a stepping stone either. Edgar won the title not used him to climb through the ranks, which is what a stepping stone is. If Aoki was young in the sport and looking to fight top competition that would be one thing, but a guy like that isn't considered top 5 in his weight class.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> JZ, Ribiero, Alvarez, and Kawajiri are ranked high why? Because they beat some lesser competition in Japan? They are not top competition. They have never beaten a top fighter in Strikeforce or the UFC and they never will. It's a house of cards. Aoki is good because he beat these guys. These guys are good because they beat other lesser fighters in Japan.  When you start with the fact that the other guys they beat aren't any good. The whole thing falls down. Aoki and Ribiero each lost in their only fight in Strikeforce. Alavarez's toughest fight was against thompson, and he lost.


First and formost Alvarez's loss to Nick Thompson has no bearing on this topic due to the fact that Alvarez and Thompson's fight was a 170 lb welterweight bout.

That's equivelant to me saying that B.J. Penn got beaten twice by GSP and gassed and blasted by Hughes in their rematch... we are discussing LW rankings. So let's keep that in mind.


*Now let's take Gray Maynard for example.... An absolute NOBODY before he fought and lost in TUF.

The majority of his victorys... he fights ...

TUF contestants

Emerson (TUF), 
RIch Clementi (TUF)
Nate Diaz (TUF)
Jim Miller (TUF)
Kenny Florian (TUF)

And his victory over Edgar, which he did earn.

Gray Maynards record.....10-0 

1 TKO 
8 DECISIONS
1- other*

The majority of his wins are over TUF contestants that are widley known yes.. Now I'm not knocking Gray Maynard here... I think he's definatly a top 10 LW....so don't get that misconstrued. 

*Yet you got Shinya not only beating but finishing world champions from multiple organizations...

Ribiero-4 time BJJ world champion.......(20-4)
Kawajiri- Held the Shooto WW championship defended it 3 times.....(26-6)
Alvarez -Bellator-Tournament Champion- LW world champion (20-2)
JZ Cavalcante- K1 Heros middleweight tournament champion (15-3-1)
Kikuchi-Shooto middleweight champion.... (16-4)

Shinya Aokis record.....24-5

15- Submissions
1-TKO
6- Decisions
2-Other*

You're going to tell me that somebody is fighting lesser competition here and it's Aoki? The one and only reason I rank Maynard higher than Aoki at this point is because he holds a victory over Frankie Edgar. If Edgar avenges that loss Maynard would definatly be bumped from the top 5.

WIth that said, Aoki is definatly top 5 in the world.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> First and formost Alvarez's loss to Nick Thompson has no bearing on this topic due to the fact that Alvarez and Thompson's fight was a 170 lb welterweight bout.
> 
> That's equivelant to me saying that B.J. Penn got beaten twice by GSP and gassed and blasted by Hughes in their rematch... we are discussing LW rankings. So let's keep that in mind.
> 
> ...


A shooto title is meaningless, its kinda like being the king of pancrease these days in that its meaningless. The KOTC title means more at this point. I already outlined that I think Alvarez is over rated and that I think Huerta is a step up in competition for him that he won't be able to handle. The only win you named that impresses me at all is Rierio but that only impresses me due to how Aoki won. Subbing a grappler of that level is impressive but its not like he was avoiding grappling. 

The only guy Aoki even beat who has any kinda of wrestling is Alvarez, most Japansese fighters have horrible wrestling so Aoki is obviously able to capitalize that but your average fighter who competes in the US LW division has a vastly superior wrestling game than there Japanese counter parts. Do you honestly not see the difference in wrestling ability between guys like Kawajiri or Kikuchi and guys like Frankie Edgar and Clay Guida? Do you not see how the Japanese officials refusal to make Aoki actually stand up gives him an unfair advantage?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Toxic said:


> A shooto title is meaningless, its kinda like being the king of pancrease these days in that its meaningless. The KOTC title means more at this point.


Notable fighers who have competed in Shooto....

Jake Shields
Kawajiri
Gilbert Melendez
Takanori Gomi
Vitor RIbeiro
Anderson Silva
Joachim Hansen
Hayato Sakurai
Shinya Aoki
Kid Yamamoto

And a good handfull of other recognizable names... in order to receive titles you had to go through guys like this...that's just between LW and MW.... You just sound biased.




Toxic said:


> I already outlined that I think Alvarez is over rated and that I think Huerta is a step up in competition for him that he won't be able to handle


Roger Huerta?? And who exactly has Roger Huerta defeated for you to make this claim?



Toxic said:


> The only win you named that impresses me at all is Rierio


That's because you are not paying attention to underrated top talent..



Toxic said:


> but that only impresses me due to how Aoki won. Subbing a grappler of that level is impressive


Riberio competed in the ADCC world championship in 00 and 03...He's also won the BJJ world championships 4 times...Shooto Champion... and he has won A Cage Rage title as well..



Toxic said:


> The only guy Aoki even beat who has any kinda of wrestling is Alvarez,


Alvarez has solid wrestiling yes..




Toxic said:


> most Japansese fighters have horrible wrestling so Aoki is obviously able to capitalize that but your average fighter who competes in the US LW division has a vastly superior wrestling game than there Japanese counter parts


That sounds good in theory, but they have massive jitz and Aoki is subbing guys that are champions on the ground... he's not a traditional BJJ player, hes a jiu jitsu mma bone breaker, he'd do to Guida what Maia did to Sonnen... Because your boy Guida has shown the potential to be submitted by lesser calibur jitz players...



Toxic said:


> Do you honestly not see the difference in wrestling ability between guys like Kawajiri or Kikuchi and guys like Frankie Edgar and Clay Guida?


You do realize that Kikuchi has defeated Jake Shields.... and Jake Shields is a world class grappler...



Toxic said:


> Do you not see how the Japanese officials refusal to make Aoki actually stand up gives him an unfair advantage?


He booty scooted in the Alvarez fight... but you're trying to make it out to be his signature move...

Shina Aoki grabs your limbs and pulls guard or goes straight to a submission lock..


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Notable fighers who have competed in Shooto....
> 
> Jake Shields
> Kawajiri
> ...


 There is a difference between fighting in Shooto when your coming up in the sport and fighting in it in your prime.



> Roger Huerta?? And who exactly has Roger Huerta defeated for you to make this claim?


 Huerta really hasn't beat anybody but he has held his own with some good fighters.



> That's because you are not paying attention to underrated top talent..


 Or I am paying attention but actually think many of them are overrated due to not being that well rounded.




> Riberio competed in the ADCC world championship in 00 and 03...He's also won the BJJ world championships 4 times...Shooto Champion... and he has won A Cage Rage title as well..


 Did you miss the part where I said that the fact he submitted Riberio was extremely impressive.







> That sounds good in theory, but they have massive jitz and Aoki is subbing guys that are champions on the ground... he's not a traditional BJJ player, hes a jiu jitsu mma bone breaker, he'd do to Guida what Maia did to Sonnen... Because your boy Guida has shown the potential to be submitted by lesser calibur jitz players...


 Your missing my point, I am not saying Aoki doesn't have great jitz I am saying he doesn't have the striking to set up the TD or good enough TD's to force it against a solid wrestler without being able to scoot around on his but like he did against Alvarez and tried against Melendez.



> You do realize that Kikuchi has defeated Jake Shields.... and Jake Shields is a world class grappler...


 You do realize that was 6 years ago and Shields has improved vastly since that time right? 



> He booty scooted in the Alvarez fight... but you're trying to make it out to be his signature move...
> 
> Shina Aoki grabs your limbs and pulls guard or goes straight to a submission lock..


No he pulls guard and grabs limbs against inferior fighters without the ability to defend his weak ass takedowns, against a fighter with solid enough wrestling to keep it standing he flops around like a fish out of water with his ridiculous butt scoots.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Toxic said:


> There is a difference between fighting in Shooto when your coming up in the sport and fighting in it in your prime.
> 
> Huerta really hasn't beat anybody but he has held his own with some good fighters.
> 
> ...


I think you like Aoki Toxic.... you're just having a hard time admitting it.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> I think you like Aoki Toxic.... you're just having a hard time admitting it.


Aoki and the other Dream fighters will never be able to hack in the UFC or Strikeforce against the top fighters. When Dream closes it's doors, my guess is they will hide in Sengoku.


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## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

While i greatly enjoy this mod fight, and apparently being "learned" on both sides of a shinya aoki argument, i figured this thread would have a lot more to do with the non UFC LWs than it does. Ben Henderson has been mentioned once, in relation to the aoki question, is it really so apparent that he isnt worthy of being called a world class LW?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Aoki and the other Dream fighters will never be able to hack in the UFC or Strikeforce against the top fighters. When Dream closes it's doors, my guess is they will hide in Sengoku.


sure bud


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Aoki and the other Dream fighters will never be able to hack in the UFC or Strikeforce against the top fighters. When Dream closes it's doors, my guess is they will hide in Sengoku.


I actually disagree I think Aoki will at least have the balls to try his luck. I think at that point all his fans will say he is just past his prime.


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> You are talking about getting started. Aoki is not getting started; he is well into his career. GSP fought his way up and then took on the best in his division. Aoki started fighting cans, and then went on to fight guys who were descent. Other than Melendez he has yet to fight top guys, so he doesn't deserve to be top 5. Aoki never beat any of those other fighters to propel him stardom. I don't think you can consider BJ a stepping stone either. Edgar won the title not used him to climb through the ranks, which is what a stepping stone is. If Aoki was young in the sport and looking to fight top competition that would be one thing, but a guy like that isn't considered top 5 in his weight class.


look at Aoki 1st 15 fights. You mean to tell me the Soti, Mach, Hansen and Kuuchki twice isnt tough compition.
And you guys have an Elitist attitude about whos tough compitition and whos not. IMO is fair ground. Like i said before, if Japan has LESSER compition, why dont fighters from the US come and prove them wrong? Because they fail most of the time and vice versa. No country has better fighter than the other. And i dont see why America is acting so damn high and mighty when most of there champs are Brazillian:confused03:


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Another promblem is fan loyalty. Since Aoki lost he is a scrub? Why going into the Kawajiri fight i was rooting for Aoki. 
Is it because he is a non-Zuffa fighter. I smell Zuffa-Zombies. 
Any promo outside of the UFC has "lesser" compition because big bad Dana says so. 
The reason people believe this is other promos have a hard time getting the word out in America since its UFC territory.
I bet you over-seas in Asia the UFC is having a harder time getting the word out since its DREAM/WVR territory.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

The Amarok said:


> look at Aoki 1st 15 fights. You mean to tell me the Soti, Mach, Hansen and Kuuchki twice isnt tough compition.
> And you guys have an Elitist attitude about whos tough compitition and whos not. IMO is fair ground. Like i said before, if Japan has LESSER compition, why dont fighters from the US come and prove them wrong? Because they fail most of the time and vice versa. No country has better fighter than the other. And i dont see why America is acting so damn high and mighty when most of there champs are Brazillian:confused03:


 The Japanese want Japanese hero's so they produce them by giving them easy fights or at least fights that stylistically are good for them. They also structure the rules to give the Japanese who are typically horrible wrestlers an advantage.



The Amarok said:


> Another promblem is fan loyalty. Since Aoki lost he is a scrub? Why going into the Kawajiri fight i was rooting for Aoki.
> Is it because he is a non-Zuffa fighter. I smell Zuffa-Zombies.
> Any promo outside of the UFC has "lesser" compition because big bad Dana says so.
> The reason people believe this is other promos have a hard time getting the word out in America since its UFC territory.
> I bet you over-seas in Asia the UFC is having a harder time getting the word out since its DREAM/WVR territory.


It has nothing to do with "Zufaa Zombies" I don't care were you fight but fight on an even playing field (fighting a Japanese fighter in Japan has not been a fair fight since Pancrease.) Aoki has won one fight that wasn't a great match up for him to get a win. That was against Alvarez were he was allowed to basically scoot around stalling to get it to the ground explain to me how the same country that punishes wrestlers for stalling can see that as anything different? Oh yeah cause most wrestlers aren't Japanese but Aoki is. He will never be allowed to do that outside Japan and he will run into a lot more fighters with solid wrestling who he can't take down. Thats not blind following the UFC its not being oblivious to the fact that MMA in Japan has always been corrupt and the fact that outside Japan Aoki will always look as threatening as a gaggle of baby geese.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

All I have to say is if sherk is not in you're top five and kenflo is, you're wrong.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

What are the "Zufaa Zombies"? By the way my top 5 are (1) Frankie Edgar, (2) BJ Penn, (3) Gilbert Meledez, (4) Eddie Alveraz, and (5) Shinya Aoki!:thumbsup:


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

my top 5 
1. Frankie Edgar
2.Gilbert Melendaz
3.Shinya Aoki
4.Gray Maynard
5.Eddie Alveraz


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I guess Gray is up there, though I'm not sure BJ still isn't up there!:thumbsup:


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

The Amarok said:


> Another promblem is fan loyalty. Since Aoki lost he is a scrub? Why going into the Kawajiri fight i was rooting for Aoki.
> Is it because he is a non-Zuffa fighter. I smell Zuffa-Zombies.
> Any promo outside of the UFC has "lesser" compition because big bad Dana says so.
> The reason people believe this is other promos have a hard time getting the word out in America since its UFC territory.
> I bet you over-seas in Asia the UFC is having a harder time getting the word out since its DREAM/WVR territory.


No promotions outside of the UFC and Strikforce have lesser competition because it's the truth. The reason Aoki hasn't made his way state side is that he will get beaten by the top guys here, so he hides in DREAM. When DREAM dies, he'll go to Sengoku.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> No promotions outside of the UFC and Strikforce have lesser competition because it's the truth. The reason Aoki hasn't made his way state side is that he will get beaten by the top guys here, so he hides in DREAM. When DREAM dies, he'll go to Sengoku.


 Part of it though isn't even so much the guys in Strikeforce or the UFC are that much better, a lot of it IMO is that the guys he is fighting in Japan are good matches for him. stylistically the guys in Strikeforce and the UFC are much worse for him and because they want to maintain him as a star Dream will continue to protect him from those kind of match ups.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, and I think alot of guys will either go to Sengoku, Strikeforce, and the UFC if and when DREAM closes!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, and I think alot of guys will either go to Sengoku, Strikeforce, and the UFC if and when DREAM closes!


Well since those are basically the only choices, you're probably right.


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