# Does the HW Grand Prix determine the No.1 Heavyweight in the World?



## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Thoughts?
Yes or No? And Why?


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## Dan0 (Aug 22, 2008)

No.


Because of this:


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## bigwood103 (Jan 6, 2011)

The only way to determine who the best was would be to have a tourney with the top 8 hw in the world which would be badass but sadly never would happen so no this doesn't determine it.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

I think the winner of the semi-finals alone would establish that _*if*_ the winners participate.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

I would say so, there are more credible fighters in that tournament than Cain or JDS have ever faced.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

KillerShark1985 said:


> I would say so, there are more credible fighters in that tournament than Cain or JDS have ever faced.


Well, I wouldn't say that Cain and JDS each did hand Werdum and Big Nog the first quick 1st round KOs to each in their careers..with ease. Cain beating JDS, or visa versa gives them a lot of credibility. 

Still a potential Werdum V Overeem V Fedor winner, and then beating someone from the right bracket winner puts that HW above all else in MMA.

The thing about this tournament is Overeem V Fedor, hasn't happened for years, should have happened - will likely be the semi-final match-up. It's a fight Overeem wants, Fedor and group hasn't let it happen for years, but they will let it happen this tournament? I'll believe it when I see it.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

can't say, if UFCs big 4 were in it instead of barnett sergey,rogers and arvloski then hells yes it would defiantly be right, i can't dismiss JDS and cain yet.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Yes.

The only other two people who could even be considered are Cain and JDS, but I'd definitely put the winner of this tourny higher than either of them.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Other than Barnett...who in this tourney is going to challenge anyone with wrestling? Thats one thing that won't really be determined. If everyone is just going to stand, then Overeem has the obvious advantage. The potential Fedor v. Overeem fight will be the most interesting....hope it happens.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd have to say yes.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> Does the HW Grand Prix determine the No.1 Heavyweight in the World?


Well, no, because UFC is #1 fighting promotion. Overeem can literally cripple everybody in the tournament, but it's still Strikeforce we're talking about. 

On the other hand, if Fedor wins, then he may get back his #1 spot due to his long reign in PRIDE mostly, but not in all MMA rankings, so undisputed status is out of the question even for Fedor. However, he'll redeem himself noticeably. Just my humble opinion


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

Depends how it unfolds really. Hard to argue if Overeem beats Werdum, Fedor then Barnett that he isn't No1!


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

None of them can jump Cain or JDS until they beat them or they lose. Fedor is a can crusher, Bigfoot is borderline top 10, Werdum got his skull exploded by JDS, the other side of the bracket is 2 cans and 2 might be cans. The winner is number 3 or 2 depending on when this finishes, whether or not it falls apart because of Fedor and Barnett, and whether or not JDS/Cain ends in a draw.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

The_Senator said:


> Well, no, because UFC is #1 fighting promotion. Overeem can literally cripple everybody in the tournament, but it's still Strikeforce we're talking about.
> 
> On the other hand, if Fedor wins, then he may get back his #1 spot due to his long reign in PRIDE mostly, but not in all MMA rankings, so undisputed status is out of the question even for Fedor. Just my humble opinion


So basically your saying its impossible for anyone outside the UFC to be the best fighter in the sport, and you are basing this statement on brand alone, quality and quantity of opponents does not reach your argument at all, so for example if Cain and JDS where fighting outside the UFC then they could not be No.1 or 2 in the world in your view, and in fact Brock Leasnar and Shane Carwin would still hold those spots on brand alone.



osmium said:


> None of them can jump Cain or JDS until they beat them or they lose. Fedor is a can crusher, Bigfoot is borderline top 10, Werdum got his skull exploded by JDS, the other side of the bracket is 2 cans and 2 might be cans. The winner is number 3 or 2 depending on when this finishes, whether or not it falls apart because of Fedor and Barnett, and whether or not JDS/Cain ends in a draw.


So how did it become possible for Cain and JDS to jump Fedor, and Overeem without berating them? and after such few fights within a protected organisation that does not allow there fighters to be tested against the other best fighters in the world?

on a final note what is the point of including the UFC in a ranking system that is biased in favour of its fighters when they dont let there fighters fight other fighters from outside the organisation.

In my view if the since its the UFC that does not allow its fighters to prove themselves in such competition then its there fighters which should lose rank over the fighters who do take part and win, its possible that you have 8 of the top 10 HW's in the world in this tournament so if winning does not make you rank No.1 then what does? the only way you can not see the winner as the No.1 HW in the world is if you rank the UFC brand over quality of fighters.


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

if overeem/werdum/fedor wins its possible to rank them number one, anybody else in that tournament has no chance at being number one even if they pull off a miracle run to the top.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> So basically your saying its impossible for anyone outside the UFC to be the best fighter in the sport, and you are basing this statement on brand alone, quality and quantity of opponents does not reach your argument at all, so for example if Cain and JDS where fighting outside the UFC then they could not be No.1 or 2 in the world in your view, and in fact Brock Leasnar and Shane Carwin would still hold those spots on brand alone.


First, I must say that I like Strikeforce and upcoming bouts. And I'm not a fan of every UFC PPV. But there's a reason for UFC being #1 in the World, I don't think that in every single MMA ranking SF GP winner will be automatically accepted as the best heavyweight in the World. Velasquez is too impressive and hasn't left any doubts after his last 3 fights. And if he beats JDS, then he's clearly the best in my mind regardless of who wins GP.

You see, if Overeem beats Werdum and loses to Fedor, then he'll be considered overrated and there won't be anything on his resume to disprove this. If Overeem takes this, then he'll definitely be #2, but I accept the possibility that may temporarily get #1 status if he wins impressively. And the winner of JDS-Velasquez then will become #1.


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

I would have to say it really depends. I am not saying this is what I think is going to happen but what if Werdum wins the whole tournament and JDS beats Cain when they fight. Would you justify putting Werdum at #1 and JDS at #2 even though JDS beat Werdum pretty badly when they fought. It is tough to say because we don't know how things are going to play out.


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

Mike28 said:


> I would have to say it really depends. I am not saying this is what I think is going to happen but what if Werdum wins the whole tournament and JDS beats Cain when they fight. Would you justify putting Werdum at #1 and JDS at #2 even though JDS beat Werdum pretty badly when they fought. It is tough to say because we don't know how things are going to play out.


I dont remember the fight but, maybe Werdum didnt feel like JDS was that good on the feet? So decided to stand for a bit and not try for the take down then got caught with a good combo. I mean look at Josh Koscheck he stood with Paulo Thiago and was KOed much in the same way as Werdum. People are quick to pass judgement on one fight i such as JDS is better then Werdum he is number 3 in the world he is the best striker etc if so why didnt he KO fatboy Nelson? Andrei Arlovski could so its not liek he got a iron chin(tho it is good) My whole point been(i think) people are quick to lable people this and that and maybe JDS and Cain are not all that maybe UFC just hyped them up very well i know lesner wasnt nothing but hype! Tho i do thing Cain is top 5 easy xD


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> I remember the fight but maybe Werdum didnt feel like JDS is that good on the feet? So decided to stand for abit and not try for the take down then got caught with a good combo. I mean look at Josh Koscheck he stood with Paulo Thiago and was KOed much in the same way as Werdum. People are quick to pass judgement on one fight i such as JDS is better then Werdum he is number 3 in the world he is the best striker etc if so why didnt he KO fatboy Nelson? Andrei Arlovski could so its not liek he got a iron chin(tho it is good) My whole point been(i think) people are quick to lable people this and that and maybe JDS and Cain are not all that maybe UFC just hyped them up very well i know lesner wasnt nothing but hype! Tho i do thing Cain is top 5 easy xD


This happens frequently. The facts are facts. Dos Santos knocked out Werdum, Fedor beat Arona, Werdum defeated Fedor and Overeem lost multiple times to LHW fighters via stoppages, etc. This is documented evidence the rest is a matter of pure speculation. On paper Overeem looks much worse than JDS, Velasquez and even Shogun from LHW, but we assume that he is not that bad as it seems, and there are people who think Alistair is even the best fighter and baddest man on the planet. The truth is somewhere in between as always.


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

The_Senator said:


> ...there are people who think Alistair is even the best fighter and baddest man on the planet.


But he is the baddest man on the planet O.O


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

Toroian said:


> I dont remember the fight but, maybe Werdum didnt feel like JDS was that good on the feet? So decided to stand for a bit and not try for the take down then got caught with a good combo. I mean look at Josh Koscheck he stood with Paulo Thiago and was KOed much in the same way as Werdum. People are quick to pass judgement on one fight i such as JDS is better then Werdum he is number 3 in the world he is the best striker etc if so why didnt he KO fatboy Nelson? Andrei Arlovski could so its not liek he got a iron chin(tho it is good) My whole point been(i think) people are quick to lable people this and that and maybe JDS and Cain are not all that maybe UFC just hyped them up very well i know lesner wasnt nothing but hype! Tho i do thing Cain is top 5 easy xD


It is quite possible he was overlooking JDS but the fact remains that JDS won that fight so if you are talking about potentially #1 and #2 fighters I wouldn't be able to justify putting Werdum above JDS because of the head to head fight. And when JDS fought Roy Nelson, Roy was taking huge shots and continuing to come forward. His chin looked really strong in that fight. I actually gained a lot of respect for Nelson in that fight.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> So basically your saying its impossible for anyone outside the UFC to be the best fighter in the sport, and you are basing this statement on brand alone, quality and quantity of opponents does not reach your argument at all, so for example if Cain and JDS where fighting outside the UFC then they could not be No.1 or 2 in the world in your view, and in fact Brock Leasnar and Shane Carwin would still hold those spots on brand alone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fedor fights once a year usually against a can and he lost. You don't hold number one if that happens. JDS and Cain have combined to completely wreck his best two wins which he decisioned also.

You are biased against UFC fighters. No, it isn't possible that Arlovski, Sergei, and Rogers are top ten HWs and Barnett(nothing without roids) and Bigfoot(gonzaga with less power) are fighting to be in the 9-15 area. Furthermore after this thing happens lets say Overeem wins it. How many HWs are there for him to fight outside of the UFC that are even 10-20 quality? 1 or 2 maybe, which makes it impossible for him to hold the number one spot without going to the UFC.


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

osmium said:


> Fedor fights once a year usually against a can and he lost. You don't hold number one if that happens. JDS and Cain have combined to completely wreck his best two wins which he decisioned also.
> 
> You are biased against UFC fighters. No, it isn't possible that Arlovski, Sergei, and Rogers are top ten HWs and Barnett(nothing without roids) and Bigfoot(gonzaga with less power) are fighting to be in the 9-15 area. Furthermore after this thing happens lets say Overeem wins it. How many HWs are there for him to fight outside of the UFC that are even 10-20 quality? 1 or 2 maybe, which makes it impossible for him to hold the number one spot without going to the UFC.


but thats it ! what your saying is that no fighter can be a top 10 fighter with out fighting in the UFC! When the UFC hires a 10-0 fighter and he wins one fight vs a name(carwin) he gets put in the top 10!! strike force has plenty of up and comers with 10-0, 15-1 etc records ! if anyone of them was in the UFC there be hailed as the next big thing!


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Toroian said:


> but thats it ! what your saying is that no fighter can be a top 10 fighter with out fighting in the UFC! When the UFC hires a 10-0 fighter and he wins one fight vs a name(carwin) he gets put in the top 10!! strike force has plenty of up and comers with 10-0, 15-1 etc records ! if anyone of them was in the UFC there be hailed as the next big thing!


I'm pretty sure I didn't say Fedor and Werdum aren't top ten but the only reason they aren't in the UFC is contract disputes and Overeem is going there once he is done crushing them. 

Carwin had 4 wins in the ufc before he got a title shot 2 of which were against Mir and Gonzaga. Cigano's UFC fights are Werdum, Struve, CroCop, Yvel, Gonzaga, and Nelson. Show me the opponent he had that was of the quality strikeforce feeds their prospects. All of those guys would instantly be top contenders in Strikeforce. Look at the challengers card they match good prospects against awful fighters that don't belong on tv. The UFC progressively gives their prospect tougher tests. Show me the strikeforce level cans Bones has been fighting in route to a title shot. Bonnar would be top 5 at LHW in strikeforce.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

Toroian said:


> but thats it ! what your saying is that no fighter can be a top 10 fighter with out fighting in the UFC! When the UFC hires a 10-0 fighter and he wins one fight vs a name(carwin) he gets put in the top 10!! strike force has plenty of up and comers with 10-0, 15-1 etc records ! if anyone of them was in the UFC there be hailed as the next big thing!


its rare the UFC get a fighter at HW with a 10-0 record, if I am not mistaken I think Cain was 2-0 when he joined the UFC, Brock was 1-0, JDS had a little more experience out of the current top bunch with a record of 6-1, Carwin 8-0 leading the group.

To put this into perceptive Big foot was 13-1 when he joined SF, Brett Rogers came in with a Pro record of 8-0, and as for Overeem, Fedor, Barnett and AA, well they are all very proven fighters, they you look at the new guys in the division, Daniel Cormier is coming in with a 6-0 record, Shane Del Rosario is coming in with a 10-0 record, all way more proven outside X promotion than the UFC fighters when they strted out the UFC careers.

And to make matters worse the UFC fighters are protected to only fight there own, so the UFC standards are never tested against the standards outside the UFC which when you look at fighters like Overeem and Fedor and company does raise questions about how legit the claim that the UFC makes about having the worlds best fighters really is.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> its rare the UFC get a fighter at HW with a 10-0 record, if I am not mistaken I think Cain was 2-0 when he joined the UFC, Brock was 1-0, JDS had a little more experience out of the current top bunch with a record of 6-1, Carwin 8-0 leading the group.
> 
> To put this into perceptive Big foot was 13-1 when he joined SF, and as for Overeem, Fedor, Barnett and AA, well they are all very proven fighters, they you look at the new guys in the division, Daniel Cormier is coming in with a 6-0 record, Shane Del Rosario is coming in with a 10-0 record, all way more proven outside X promotion than the UFC fighters when they strted out the UFC careers.
> 
> And to make matters worse the UFC fighters are protected to only fight there own, so the UFC standards are never tested against the standards outside the UFC which when you look at fighters like Overeem and Fedor and company does raise questions about how legit the claim that the UFC makes is about having the worlds best fighters really is.



So beating cans infront of 200 people makes them better fighters than beating people you can see have actual skills. Your retarded illogical theory was clearly proven correct by Antonio McKee. Werdum was a middle of the pack HW in the UFC what happened to Fedor when he fought someone of that quality. Nothing you say even comes close to making sense. The UFC is protecting JDS and Cain by signing Nog and CroCop the two best fighters Fedor ever beat and having them fight them. 

I have seen Cormier fight he does not belong in the UFC yet, John Madsen would beat him with ease. The UFC signs the elite prospects who they think can jump into the mix after a few fights they don't sign guys who need to be fighting cans for 5 years honing their skills that is what strikeforce does.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

osmium said:


> *So beating cans infront of 200 people makes them better fighters than beating people you can see have actual skills. Your retarded illogical theory was clearly proven correct by Antonio McKee*. Werdum was a middle of the pack HW in the UFC what happened to Fedor when he fought someone of that quality. Nothing you say even comes close to making sense. The UFC is protecting JDS and Cain by signing Nog and CroCop the two best fighters Fedor ever beat and having them fight them.
> 
> I have seen Cormier fight he does not belong in the UFC yet, John Madsen would beat him with ease. The UFC signs the elite prospects who they think can jump into the mix after a few fights they don't sign guys who need to be fighting cans for 5 years honing their skills that is what strikeforce does.


I'm sorry I stopped reading as soon as you used a LW example to defend the current ranked fighters in the HW division.

Oh I read on, Nog and CroCop yea ok they great examples, do you not think that Overeem and Fedor would still hand them back there asses as well as all the UFC guys, dam I would fear for CroCops life is he was to enter the cage with the Reem.

And your assumptions about a 6-0 fighter not belonging ion the UFC yet a 1-0, 2-0 fighter does, mmm yea your right maybe a fighter who has that may wins does deserve a better promotion than the UFC, which is built on unproven self claims of greatness and hype.

If anyone really wants to know why your status is Troll guess they only need read this topic.

and how does what I say not make sense, I am just stating facts, the number of fights I listed for each fighter before they joined to the UFC are not speculation or nonsense they are simple facts, make what you will about those facts but they are none less true and the facts are that the guys coming into SF where a lot more proven than the guys coming into he UFC


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

This is why I would love it if we were able to take the top 3 Strikeforce HW fighters, top 3 UFC fighters, and the top 2 HW fighters not in either promotion and have the 8 man HW tournament. Hell do this with every weight class. I know it would never happen but as a fan it would sure be fun to watch.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> This is why I would love it if we were able to take the top 3 Strikeforce HW fighters, top 3 UFC fighters, and the top 2 HW fighters not in either promotion and have the 8 man HW tournament. Hell do this with every weight class. I know it would never happen but as a fan it would sure be fun to watch.


I'm afraid it won't be possible. UFC simply has nothing to gain and everything to lose. This is already #1 MMA organization and Strikeforce in not PRIDE FC, nobody takes it very seriously yet. I hope they know what they're doing by making this tournament, I mean financially. I wouldn't want to see SF to go bankrupt in 2-3 years. Frankly I want for Strikeforce to become the second major MMA organization with stacked divisions from LW to HW, and it would be nice to see fighters testing themselves in both UFC and Strikeforce, but we're years away from it Right now UFC rules, whether we like it or not.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Mike28 said:


> This is why I would love it if we were able to take the top 3 Strikeforce HW fighters, top 3 UFC fighters, and the top 2 HW fighters not in either promotion and have the 8 man HW tournament. Hell do this with every weight class. I know it would never happen but as a fan it would sure be fun to watch.


 Tell me about it. :]

As for the original question of this thread, I say yes.

#1 HW in the world will always be up for debate unless the quote above happens; what's happening here is the next best thing. Any other division & I'd say no - SF's top 5 HW stack up great against UFC's top 5 HW; objectively, there's very little wiggle room there, and everything else is ancient history, MMA math, & speculation.

Unless SF & UFC merge, or we start seeing cross-promoted fights, you won't get anything more definitive than this.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

The_Senator is right, the UFC would never dare put its top fighters up against the top SF fighters, make of that what you will, but to me it implies they are scare in case there fighters lose, does somehow discredit there claims of having the best when they dare not prove it, but Dana markets them so well that he just needs to yell out loud that his fighters are the best and take ever opportunity to discredit any fighter doing well outside the UFC and enough people actually believe that sh1t to keep his PPV sales up.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

M.C said:


> Yes.
> 
> The only other two people who could even be considered are Cain and JDS, but I'd definitely put the winner of this tourny higher than either of them.


This ^


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

KillerShark1985 said:


> its rare the UFC get a fighter at HW with a 10-0 record, if I am not mistaken I think Cain was 2-0 when he joined the UFC, Brock was 1-0, JDS had a little more experience out of the current top bunch with a record of 6-1, Carwin 8-0 leading the group.
> 
> To put this into perceptive Big foot was 13-1 when he joined SF, Brett Rogers came in with a Pro record of 8-0, and as for Overeem, Fedor, Barnett and AA, well they are all very proven fighters, they you look at the new guys in the division, Daniel Cormier is coming in with a 6-0 record, Shane Del Rosario is coming in with a 10-0 record, all way more proven outside X promotion than the UFC fighters when they strted out the UFC careers.
> 
> And to make matters worse the UFC fighters are protected to only fight there own, so the UFC standards are never tested against the standards outside the UFC which when you look at fighters like Overeem and Fedor and company does raise questions about how legit the claim that the UFC makes about having the worlds best fighters really is.


Good post :thumbsup:


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

KillerShark1985 said:


> The_Senator is right, the UFC would never dare put its top fighters up against the top SF fighters, make of that what you will, but to me it implies they are scare in case there fighters lose, does somehow discredit there claims of having the best when they dare not prove it, but Dana markets them so well that he just needs to yell out loud that his fighters are the best and take ever opportunity to discredit any fighter doing well outside the UFC and enough people actually believe that sh1t to keep his PPV sales up.


Its not that they are scared that there fighters would lose and become less credible, its more of them seeing absolutely zero reason to do Strikeforce any favors. By attaching there name to another organization, the UFC would automatically gain that promotin a lot of attention and credibility (it happened with the WEC). Strikeforce didnt do anything to help the UFC get to where they are today, why would the UFC want to help Strikeforce?


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

joshua7789 said:


> Its not that they are scared that there fighters would lose and become less credible, its more of them seeing absolutely zero reason to do Strikeforce any favors. By attaching there name to another organization, the UFC would automatically gain that promotin a lot of attention and credibility (it happened with the WEC). Strikeforce didnt do anything to help the UFC get to where they are today, why would the UFC want to help Strikeforce?


Maybe to build MMA up? Dana is an egotistical, power-hungry jackass,look at all the people who have expressed a direct distaste for White and how he operates Jon Fitch, Tito Ortiz, Josh Barnett, Fedor etc ... I hope SF ,Bellator,and Dream all somehow combine and make Dana look like an idiot with his over hyped shit hw's.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Maybe to build MMA up? Dana is an egotistical, power-hungry jackass,look at all the people who have expressed a direct distaste for White and how he operates Jon Fitch, Tito Ortiz, Josh Barnett, Fedor etc ... I hope SF ,Bellator,and Dream all somehow combine and make Dana look like an idiot with his over hyped shit hw's.


He is the president of the UFC, not the president of mma. Also, he has dont as much if not more for mma then damn near anyone on the planet. That "power hungry jackass" is one of the big reason's that MMA is where it is at today.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

In all honestness they should have booked Tim Sylvia for a standby.. 

Dude was like 10-3 in the UFC and he's on a win streak 28-6 overall.


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> In all honestness they should have booked Tim Sylvia for a standby..
> 
> Dude was like 10-3 in the UFC and he's on a win streak 28-6 overall.


Yeah might be able to get him for a bit less then the 900k Affliction paid haha!


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

joshua7789 said:


> He is the president of the UFC, not the president of mma. Also, he has dont as much if not more for mma then damn near anyone on the planet. That "power hungry jackass" is one of the big reason's that MMA is where it is at today.


You mean UFC right because MMA existed before Dana and organizations like Pride were # 1.Fertitta made Dana White and Forrest vs Bonner made UFC popular, Dana is an idiot.Dana is the reason why Fedor is not in the UFC and Dana is the reason why half the fighters in the UFC hate him.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> You mean UFC right because MMA existed before Dana and organizations like Pride were # 1.Fertitta made Dana White and Forrest vs Bonner made UFC popular, Dana is an idiot.Dana is the reason why Fedor is not in the UFC and Dana is the reason why half the fighters in the UFC hate him.


Fedor isnt in the UFC because of Fedor. They offered him a contract. He didnt sign it. Regardless of the circumstances, Fedor isnt in the UFC by his own hand. Where are you getting this whole half the fighters hate him? Seems like a pretty general statement with no actual evidence behind it. Where is Pride now? Thats right, they got bought out by the UFC because they couldnt keep there shit together. You just seem to hate Dana White and you dont actually have any real facts to offer.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

No.

The truth is both divisons are equal, with the UFC's number 2 clearly better than Strikeforce's number 2, and the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th guys in the UFC would easily hang with and/or defeat Strikeforce's.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

EliteUndisputed said:


> UFC's number 2 clearly better than Strikeforce's number 2


I don't really agree with that; IMO the top 3 in each are pretty much interchangeable, without much of a gap between them. Make those 6 all fight each other a few times, and I doubt you'll see anyone running away with the win total.

/pure speculation

After that, UFC pulls ahead by pure roster depth.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Definitely :thumbsup: 

Whoever wins this GrandPrix should be ranked ahead of Cain.

Cain just doesn't have fought such calibre of fighters yet. With a win over JDS however, then it's close one.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

I think both divisions are very similar. The top three or four guys are quite a bit better then the rest. Overeem, Fedor, Barnett, and Werdum followed by some mid level guys. Cain, Carwin, JDS, and Brock followed by some mid level guys. This is the big problem with the HW division and it probably always will be. The talent is spread so thin that it is very unlikely that we will ever see the top ten guys fighting in the same org.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

joshua7789 said:


> Fedor isnt in the UFC because of Fedor. They offered him a contract. He didnt sign it. Regardless of the circumstances, Fedor isnt in the UFC by his own hand. Where are you getting this whole half the fighters hate him? Seems like a pretty general statement with no actual evidence behind it. Where is Pride now? Thats right, they got bought out by the UFC because they couldnt keep there shit together. You just seem to hate Dana White and you dont actually have any real facts to offer.


Have you been living under a rock? When PRIDE folded Fedor became a free agent,White ripped into Fedor, calling him overrated, and not even a top five heavyweight, that his management team was a bunch of crazy Russians,Fedor signed with Affliction right after. Matt Lindland, BJ Penn, Randy Couture, Jens Pulver, Murilo Bustamante,Wanderlei Silva,Jon Fitch, Tito Ortiz, Josh Barnett etc... all these fighters have stated that they don’t like giving the company everything they’ve got and not getting respect in return.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Have you been living under a rock? When PRIDE folded Fedor became a free agent,White ripped into Fedor, calling him overrated, and not even a top five heavyweight, that his management team was a bunch of crazy Russians,Fedor signed with Affliction right after. Matt Lindland, BJ Penn, Randy Couture, Jens Pulver, Murilo Bustamante,Wanderlei Silva,Jon Fitch, Tito Ortiz, Josh Barnett etc... all these fighters have stated that they don’t like giving the company everything they’ve got and not getting respect in return.


Silva, Couture, Penn, Fitch, and Ortiz are all still under contract with the UFC. Dana White cant be that terrible if they are all staying with the UFC. Fedor was offered a contract with the UFC, Dana White has stated on many occasions that he tried to sign him. He has even stated that he flew to Russia to try and make a deal with Fedors management team.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

joshua7789 said:


> Silva, Couture, Penn, Fitch, and Ortiz are all still under contract with the UFC. Dana White cant be that terrible if they are all staying with the UFC. Fedor was offered a contract with the UFC, Dana White has stated on many occasions that he tried to sign him. He has even stated that he flew to Russia to try and make a deal with Fedors management team.


And ? Tough choice for Fedor sign with Affliction and get payed 1.2 mil a fight or sign with a company who's President talks shit about his own fighters.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> And ? Tough choice for Fedor sign with Affliction and get payed 1.2 mil a fight or sign with a company who's President talks shit about his own fighters.


Got me on the money deal, although im not sure it ever came out how much the UFC was willing to pay Fedor (I really doubt it was anywhere near 1.2 mil, that arent stupid and actually have a good idea of a fighters value).


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> And ? Tough choice for Fedor sign with Affliction and get payed 1.2 mil a fight or sign with a company who's President talks shit about his own fighters.


wiki says he got paid 300k to show and no win bonus(yeah its wiki)


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## Rusko (Feb 4, 2010)

Toroian said:


> wiki says he got paid 300k to show and no win bonus(yeah its wiki)


All this talk about wiki not being credible, I understand it but has anyone really saw big mistakes up there that weren't removed few hours later?

I've been using it for years and never had any problem with it.


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

Rusko said:


> All this talk about wiki not being credible, I understand it but has anyone really saw big mistakes up there that weren't removed few hours later?
> 
> I've been using it for years and never had any problem with it.


I agree a god send for assignments raise01: but some people just discard it if you say wiki xD


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

Woodenhead said:


> I don't really agree with that; IMO the top 3 in each are pretty much interchangeable, without much of a gap between them. Make those 6 all fight each other a few times, and I doubt you'll see anyone running away with the win total.
> 
> /pure speculation
> 
> After that, UFC pulls ahead by pure roster depth.


You don't agree Dos Santos is better than Werdum?










Dos Santos' right hand says he is.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

EliteUndisputed said:


> You don't agree Dos Santos is better than Werdum?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who hasn't cought Werdum big deal, Overeem would rip JDS in stand up and Werdum would rip JDS in BJJ.
Everyone gets cought Brock,Fedor,Werdum etc...


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

Werdum and JDS didn't fight in BJJ. Werdum lost, accept it. And do you have proof Overeem would kill Dos Santos in the stand up?


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

EliteUndisputed said:


> Werdum and JDS didn't fight in BJJ. Werdum lost, accept it. And do you have proof Overeem would kill Dos Santos in the stand up?


You missed my point , im saying a rematch might turn out differently just like the rematch between Fedor and Werdum might be different. 

You think Overeem is going to decision with Roy Nelson ?


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## Rusko (Feb 4, 2010)

MMA math ^ 

We can say that Dos Santos > Werdum until the rematch, same goes with Werdum>Fedor.


I believe that the result of the rematches will be different from their first bouts.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Rusko said:


> MMA math ^


common sense


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Wow I can't even beleive there are members questioning Overeems standup against JDSs..

Overeem is a K1 champion and would absolutly blast JDS in a striking match... tbh with how hard Overeem hits I don't even think this one would be close..


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

If Fedor or Overeem wins they are #1. If Werdum or Bigfoot win its questionable. Anybody else they get #2 if they are lucky.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> You missed my point , im saying a rematch might turn out differently just like the rematch between Fedor and Werdum might be different.
> 
> You think Overeem is going to decision with Roy Nelson ?


You think JDS got submitted by Werdum? Maybe Nelson would tire Reem out and sub him. His TDD is totally unproven



_RIVAL_ said:


> Wow I can't even beleive there are members questioning Overeems standup against JDSs..
> 
> Overeem is a K1 champion and would absolutly blast JDS in a striking match... tbh with how hard Overeem hits I don't even think this one would be close..



You're wrong there. K1 level fighters have always been heavily exaggerated. JDS is the most effective striker at HW, period. Overeem has been KOd plenty of times by guys with way less power and speed than Cigano. JDS has never been rocked once in all his MMA fights or as the Brazil HW kickboxing champ.


Hopefully this fight happens soon and we can watch JDS throw down the gauntlet and turn Overeem into a cowering mess in the first exchange.



Edit: just watched Duffee vs Reem. Seriously? Even Duffee got some shots in on Reem and got a takedown. If JDS lands the same uppercut that Duffee did it'd be a damn quick night for The Demolition Man.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

I guess I'm gonna quote myself here:



Hammerlock2.0 said:


> ^Anyone from the left bracket who wins this tournament will be considered the top HW on this planet in my view. Even Bigfoot would have a good case if he beats Fedor, the winner of Reem/Werdum and then goes on to beat the winner of the right bracket.


I'm not so sure with the right bracket though. Arlovski has to many losses recently, Kharitonov isn't ranked top 10 right now I believe, neither is Rogers. Barnett has a good case if he runs through everyone. He hasn't been beaten in quite some time, but I feel the whole steroid thing will keep most sites from ranking him #1 just yet.


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## nbf79 (Nov 26, 2010)

Dan0 said:


> No.
> 
> 
> Because of this:


This!

Plus dos Santos.
Carwin? possibly
Brock? Possibly

Don't start flaming me cos I think Brock could be in there. You can't tell me you wouldn't give him a chance over Rodgers or Sergey


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

If the UFC had Arlovski, Silva, Werdum, Rogers, Sergei or Barnett challenge for the HW belt in a couple months this forum would be in an uproar. But these guys are valid contenders to Reems belt, two already holding a win over the champ.


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## Big_Charm (Jan 7, 2011)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> I guess I'm gonna quote myself here:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not so sure with the right bracket though. Arlovski has to many losses recently, Kharitonov isn't ranked top 10 right now I believe, neither is Rogers. Barnett has a good case if he runs through everyone. He hasn't been beaten in quite some time, but I feel the whole steroid thing will keep most sites from ranking him #1 just yet.


I definitely agree with the posts...

I think the left side is rediculously stacked with talent and thus, should reflect on the MMA rankings as a whole.

While you can argue back and forth for both causes UFC vs. Strikeforce (I say Strikeforce has a deeper HW division with much much more experience IMO).

Until UFC take the long hard road of Tournaments ala Pride days to test their thinning HW division, it's going to be hard to rank many UFC fighters over their SF counterparts in the near future.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> You're wrong there. K1 level fighters have always been heavily exaggerated. JDS is the most effective striker at HW, period. Overeem has been KOd plenty of times by guys with way less power and speed than Cigano. JDS has never been rocked once in all his MMA fights or as the Brazil HW kickboxing champ.


JDS barely finished an injured Cro cop and couldn't finish Roy Nelson,put K-1 Gloves on him and fighters like Gokhan Saki,Overeem will rip him a new one.

Keep living in Dana's over hyped dream world


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## FrodoFraggins (Oct 25, 2009)

As much as I hate to say it, the winner of the loaded side of the bracket makes a very strong case for #1. 

I think Cain can beat anyone in the tourney but rankings are based on what you've accomplished and with Cain out with an injury it only hurts his status as #1 if they get two rounds of the tourney off before Cain fights again.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

_RIVAL_ said:


> I'd have to say yes.


...I concur as well. This tournament will be MMA history in the making. Another slick move by Strikeforce putting together arguably the most talented HW's out there aside from Cain, JDS & Carwin. The Strikeforce HW roster in my opinion is deeper and more talented than the UFC's. This tournament will be completely insane...


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

*Edit: could a mod please remove asterisks? Posted from iPhone uncooperatively. Thank*



Bknmax said:


> JDS barely finished an injured Cro cop and couldn't finish Roy Nelson,put K-1 Gloves on him and fighters like Gokhan Saki,Overeem will rip him a new one.
> 
> Keep living in Dana's over hyped dream world



CroCop wasn't injured at all. *He just came off a great training camp with Bonjasky and Yvel. *And saying JDS barely finished him is like saying Bones barely finished Vera.


People forget CroCop fought Overeem just a few fights before JDS. *Reem couldn't land anything standing and took the fight to the mat not even 2 minutes in, got tied up, and they stood back up. *Overeem wanted nothing to do with CroCop standing and he took the fight back to the mat


The only significant strike he landed the whole fight was that big knee to the jewels. *He couldn't land anything in the clinch or even get to it; JDS dominated CroCop in the clinch with knees and uppercuts. * The only combo Reem threw was a feint to big overhand and it missed everytime.


As for the 12oz gloves: *Cigano is a HW kickboxing champ. *

*




He looks real awkward there with those gloves I guess.



RIVAL: I'd like you to watch CroCop vs Overeem and CroCop vs JDS and PM me. *


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## Ace70 (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm picking Barnett and Fedor to make the finals.


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## The_Sandman (Aug 16, 2009)

I am going to say _"NO"._

Personally, I would like to see the winner head-over to the UFC and challenge the current champ. Then we will find out who is the best in the world. :smoke01:


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Who knows. The right side of the bracket holds no top 10 HWs really. In the end Cain is the best along with the winner of this. We would need a match between the 2 to actually find out. Don't think it matters. Both champs will be great. Pac vs. Mayweather if you will...without the craziness. 2 different promotions...2 different situations. Until they fight there is no true best...only speculation.

On a side note.....the way people are sucking Overeem's balls now is ridiculous. If he wins the thing it will be through the roof. He still wouldn't face a guy like Cain with the cardio/wrestling he has....so I don't see how you can tell. But because it is a tourney everyone will slob over the winner...especially if it is Overeem.


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## Johnni G (Dec 2, 2009)

Brock, Cain, Carwin, JDS? Anyone?


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Overeem, Werdum, Barnett, Fedor

With a top 4 like that, they easily rival the UFC.

IMO you can't say Cain is #1 unless he comes to SF to fight the winner of this. *>>>* I believe that statement is perfectly equal to saying "The winner has to come to the UFC to determine the world's #1."


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Personally I think this Grand Prix determines like the number two man in the world but not the number one. The number two man should go to the UFC afterwards and face off against Cain. I have to agree though that UFC fighters should go to other promotions to truely determine who is the best but as long as Dana White is president of the UFC that won't happen!


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