# Ken Shamrock Is The Most OVERRATED Fighter In The History Of MMA



## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

Even when he was in his prime, this dude would NOT be able to stand next to the fighters who dominate MMA today.

You've gotta remember that the competition back when he made his rounds was slim pickings. I hear a lot of people sayin a young Shamrock would've beaten Tito, bullshit. Would he have been able to go 2 rounds with Chuck? Absolutely not. What about that chump Tim Sylvia? Would he be able to dominate him the way he dominated the heavyweight division back when it was ran by a hand full of 1 dimensional fighters?... the answer to that is also NO.

I give him credit for helping build the sport and becoming a house-hold name among MMA fans back before Tito knocked his ass out, but thats where it ends. Ken Shamrock's name shouldnt be mentioned in the same breath as Tito, Couture or even Tim "My mother wishes she never gave birth to me" Sylvia. it's that simple.


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## TheSuplexor (Jun 2, 2006)

true! it's just early ufc guys had no clue what to do on the ground or really on their feet. he knew like 4 moves so he won every now and then


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## imrik32 (Dec 31, 2006)

That's like saying a roman legionnaire would be killed by a current american soldier. The sport has evolved, the fighters have evolved, the _way_ they fight has evolved. It has gone through a complete change.


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

he was lighting in Pancrase!


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## jamlena (Oct 15, 2006)

Simon Phoenix said:


> Even when he was in his prime, this dude would NOT be able to stand next to the fighters who dominate MMA today.
> 
> You've gotta remember that the competition back when he made his rounds was slim pickings. I hear a lot of people sayin a young Shamrock would've beaten Tito, bullshit. Would he have been able to go 2 rounds with Chuck? Absolutely not. What about that chump Tim Sylvia? Would he be able to dominate him the way he dominated the heavyweight division back when it was ran by a hand full of 1 dimensional fighters?... the answer to that is also NO.
> 
> I give him credit for helping build the sport and becoming a house-hold name among MMA fans back before Tito knocked his ass out, but thats where it ends. Ken Shamrock's name shouldnt be mentioned in the same breath as Tito, Couture or even Tim "My mother wishes she never gave birth to me" Sylvia. it's that simple.


The BS wonder is back at it again, you really like to stir it up...Shamrock is his prime would absolutely be able to hang with the fighters today...and that's all I'm going to say.


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## TheGracieHunter (Dec 19, 2006)

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Here we go again, I've battled this argument so many times I can't even be bothered anymore. You're wrong, that'll do it


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## Hendo (Mar 2, 2007)

Tito?


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## baz00ca (Nov 22, 2006)

let me get this straight...Royce Gracie who is no longer in his prime would have totally owned Hughes if he wasn't so nervous and Shamrock in his prime would never beat anyone. is that about right? i have to give you credit, you don't give up that easily.


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## TheGracieHunter (Dec 19, 2006)

Hendo said:


> Tito?



Um.........you ok there? What do you mean Tito?


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## fenderman80 (Sep 12, 2006)

jamlena said:


> The BS wonder is back at it again, you really like to stir it up...*Shamrock is his prime would absolutely be able to hang with the fighters today*...and that's all I'm going to say.


Yeah so can Elvis Sinoseic, Joe Riggs, and Jason Lambert (all in their primes)in their respective divisions and thats about it. If Shamrock was fighting today in his prime he would be at best the 3rd or 4th best in his division. I see Tito, Chuck, Rampage, Rashaad, and ,maybe even Jardine sticking it to him (and possibly forest). And he would get creamed in the HW div. Shamrock had pretty good standup and above average ground skills. He also fought and lost to Severn in possibly the longest and most boring match in all of MMA history. To say in his prime really dosent hold much water. Just look a Couture. Shamrock is overrated b/c he's cocky and had the balls to think he could comeback and dominate in MMA after being out of it for 2yrs in WWE w/o adapting his style. His only reall win after his comeback in the UFC was against Kimo who's a journeyman Can himself.


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## TheGracieHunter (Dec 19, 2006)

He didn't think he could come back and dominate everyone. He wanted to comeback and fight people, so what. I don't think he's the best fighter in the world ever or anything but on his day I think he could beat pretty much anyone around his weight division. He also beat Severn in a couple of minutes but I do agree that 2nd match was hideous. Doesn't mean other top fighters havent had shockingly bad fights, to be honest a lot of Randys fights are pretty boring and the same goes for Tito. Doesn't mean they arent good


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

jamlena said:


> The BS wonder is back at it again, you really like to stir it up...Shamrock is his prime would absolutely be able to hang with the fighters today...and that's all I'm going to say.


Bold words from someone know proved how little he knows about MMA by saying Randy Couture is a terrible striker


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

imrik32 said:


> That's like saying a roman legionnaire would be killed by a current american soldier. The sport has evolved, the fighters have evolved, the _way_ they fight has evolved. It has gone through a complete change.


Exactly. He wouldnt have the tools today to hang with the multi-dimensional fighters who are trained in more then just 1 or 2 components. He proved that when he tried to make a triumphant return but failed to evolve with the times.


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## TheGracieHunter (Dec 19, 2006)

haha I suppose before Saturday you were raving about his striking skills huh?


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## Asian Sensation (Oct 9, 2006)

jamlena said:


> The BS wonder is back at it again, you really like to stir it up...Shamrock is his prime would absolutely be able to hang with the fighters today...and that's all I'm going to say.


he is usually full of shit like about how hughes got lucky with royce but i have to argee with him on this one shamrock in his prime was more one dimentional than he is now and would not be able to hang with the best and he was and still is very overrated i think he is a "legend" more for his contributions to spreading the sport than his actual accomplishments as a fighter


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## spearsoldier (Sep 13, 2006)

People should be shot dead.

Ken Shamrock was not the greatest fighter of all time. 

Ken Shamrock never claimed to be the best when he returned; this is displayed by his speech after is KO over Kimo.

Ken Shamrock was FAST as **** in Pancrase. 

He had great wars in Pride, and he did well in the UFC.

He was burnt out by the time people started evolving, and then he spread the sport using his name. To compare any fighter vs another fighter in another time is futile, so please stop.
Also stop disrespecting a man who's pinky is more important to the sport than your entire life.

Dont compare him to Randy; Randy learned from his mistakes.

Enjoy the final products guys, but dont hate on the prototype. This man is was an essential poster boy in the very beginning and gave this sport a great name.


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## MAVERIK (Jan 3, 2007)

He isn't overrated, stupid post, there it is.


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

spearsoldier said:


> People should be shot dead.
> 
> Ken Shamrock was not the greatest fighter of all time.
> 
> ...


Look at it this way. When Shamrock made his return, he was even more well rounded then his earlier days when he was supposed to be "in his prime" correct?

And look how many losses he ranked up on his record after this time even after learning new components and becoming more well rounded. People just use the "burned out" arguement as rationalization to what shouldnt even be debatable.


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## TYKIDD (Dec 6, 2006)

Simon Phoenix said:


> Look at it this way. When Shamrock made his return, he was even more well rounded then his earlier days when he was supposed to be "in his prime" correct?
> 
> And look how many losses he ranked up on his record after this time even after learning new components and becoming more well rounded. People just use the "burned out" arguement as rationalization to what shouldnt even be debatable.


he was old what the hell are you talking about???? He was burnt out and his prime was behind him. Your stupid. And don't say Randy is 43 and he won blah blah blah. Randy is something different just like George Foreman was something diffrent.


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

TYKIDD said:


> he was old what the hell are you talking about???? He was burnt out and his prime was behind him. Your stupid. And don't say Randy is 43 and he won blah blah blah. Randy is something different just like George Foreman was something diffrent.


Look at Chuck's age.. look at Randy's age.. when you're a champion age is irrelevant. Anyone who says Shamrock was a better fighter before he returned is a fool. When he came back he had more tools then ever before, yet he still couldnt cut it. What does that tell you?


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## ZeroPRIDE (Apr 12, 2006)

yea Shamrock hanging with Frye means he overrated.(rollseyes)


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## dutch sauce (Sep 24, 2006)

simon i swear u are a total retard and u arejust trying to stir us up. its worth it ne more u deserve to get banned. But ne ways. Ken was called the worlds most dangerous man for a reason. he was devestating. I think he could succseed somewhat with todays guys in his prime. Probly not champ material but he could hang with the best


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## lanceis2buff (Aug 3, 2006)

It's not like Shamrock lost to a bunch of cans. He fought the best. And put up some damn good fights in the process. We all know that Ken is not on the upper eschelon of MMA fighters, nor is he at the bottom. 

Your point has been made countless times by many others and is really irrelevant at this point. 

We don't remember Shamrock for being the best fighter ever, we remember him for his perserverence to see this sport succeed, and the wars he put on, whether it was a win or a loss. 

I don't remember hearing many people praising Shamrock's name around here lately, so I don't see the need to point out how he wasn't as successful in the win column as other fighters were.

Seriously, it's old.


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## ZeroPRIDE (Apr 12, 2006)

adn with that this thread should be closed. repped


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

dutch sauce said:


> simon i swear u are a total retard and u arejust trying to stir us up. its worth it ne more u deserve to get banned. But ne ways. Ken was called the worlds most dangerous man for a reason. he was devestating. I think he could succseed somewhat with todays guys in his prime. Probly not champ material but he could hang with the best


Funny how everytime i prove one of you wrong and you have nothing to counter any of my points you resort to saying i "like to stir things up"

He was called the worlds most dangerous man because he was dangerous to the other 1 dimensional slouches in an era where the level of talent was far lower then what we see today. It's that simple.


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## kevlar (Jan 1, 2007)

I know this is my first post and it is such a contro... sub. I think people forget Ken Wayne Shamrock in his prime was part of the reason the UFC trouble earning mainstream respect. When the UFC got its foot in the door he helped the sport. I will always remember Ken for his fights before UFC1. IMO there has not been another fighter with the ruthless,coldhearted, aggression. He ruined peoples Lives, There families,there kids. Crippled them for life mentally and physically. There was a reason his hayday was in illegal fighting.Good as Tito or the others, probably not, but much more vicious!


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## Risto (Oct 11, 2006)

Shamrock was one of the best in his day - period. Of course the sport has evolved with fighters now learning more different diciplines and are more rounded.

He helped shape UFC to what it is today and that's why he's a Hall Of Fame member. To bad-mouth him years down the line shows little understanding for the evolution of the sport. 

Suppose you're gonna ***** about Tank next...? Or Gracie for losing to Hughes...?


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## Negative1 (Feb 4, 2007)

He could definately hang with the best today in his prime the guy knows soo many leg locks its not even funny and when you twist a guys knee like that, he is gonna feel it years down the road when he starts to age. 

Besides all that, whens the last time someone tapped due to a knee bar? His submissions are obsolete and when he fought Frye I still have no idea how he ended up getting the full mount a split second after Frye was beating on his ass. 

Back in July of '94 when he fought Matt Hume, that guillotine Matt tried, Ken give him the northlights suplex into a hammerlock, thats pure skill you cant teach someone that.

Overrated...Hardly.


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## Blue~Thunder (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL at the guy saying Ken is useless. Your a tool, seriously just bad..

So I guess your saying Dan severn,Gracie and the other guys he dominated were useless and couldnt do shit today aswell then?

You insult a man who had decisions in his life to make that were not only for himself but that of people around him.

When he broke into the UFC he quickly became a household name by dominating those around him. He was also the point of controversy when he refused to continue in a tournemant because Gracie pulled out with an injury. ( yes I was a shamcrock fan)However Ken Shamrock continues to roll on, becomming the first UFC super fight champion ( it was considered an open division in them days)Where he held the belt for several consecutive matches before losing to Severn. Now let me explain WHY he lost to Severn.

Shamrock had been going around T.V shows and interviews saying that UFC was a barbaric sport and more of a mean of guys with skill to show off there talents. The city they were in said strikes were to brutal and they banned striking from the competition, Ken had an injury (torn meniscus) and was going to rely on the striking game but couldnt now. But he also couldnt back out because all the press he had been doing would have been a total waste.

Then came his decision to leave for WWF at the time now he has stated many times that he did this to make more money for his family so insulting him over this would be trivial.

During all of this he racked up a record of over 25 wins with less than 6 losses. Did I mention when he came back went to Pride where he had wars with Don Fry where he got him in a ankle lock and broke his foot? Usually when that happens you win but in Kens case oh well.

Ken made groundbreaking acheivements for the world of MMA to thrive and be as big as it has become insult him you insult the sport.


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## iceman574 (Jun 2, 2006)

look people grow up or shut up for those of u that diss shammy for no reason are fools did any of you once stop to realise that maybe TITO was just a bad match up for shamrock. styles make fights people tito got crushed by liddel twice does it mean tito is crap NO it means chuck just has his number BJ PENN is a bad matchup for huges does it make huges bad NO 

its true tito ran though shamrock 3 times but thats how mma works no matter how great you are there is someone who will dominate you its just how it goes. lutter allmost beat silvia while he was weak . silvia destroyed franklin i think franklin would kill lutter its just how it goes 

DONT SAY A GUY IS RUBBISH COS HE GOT DOMINATED 3 TIMES BY THE SAME GYT THATS STUPID RANDY GOT DOMINATED TWICE BY CHUCK AND HE IS AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED A MMA GOD


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## TYKIDD (Dec 6, 2006)

Simon Phoenix said:


> Look at Chuck's age.. look at Randy's age.. when you're a champion age is irrelevant. Anyone who says Shamrock was a better fighter before he returned is a fool. When he came back he had more tools then ever before, yet he still couldnt cut it. What does that tell you?


It does matter. That just proves your stupid. Just because he knew a little more and i mean little because he actually didn't know all that much more. Plus he was out of his physical prime which means alot. There are some guys that can do it. 99.9% of people just can't. Like when Shammy was fighting Ortiz in like the third fight I think. Ortiz picked up Shamrock and carried him all the way across the cage. That had nothing to do with anything except Ortiz was younger and stronger. period.


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## Asian Sensation (Oct 9, 2006)

dutch sauce said:


> *Ken was called the worlds most dangerous man for a reason.*


you do know ken shamrock was called "the world's most dangerous man" as a nick name during his days in WWF not because of his prowless in the UFC


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

He has 26 wins and 22 of those wins are by submission. He was the original submission expert of MMA along with the Gracies. They helped change the UFC from a brawl fest to an actual sport (Mixed Martial Arts). It's ridiculous to say Shamrock is overrated, plus he beat Bas Rutten twice and had a draw vs Royce Gracie! How can you be unimpressed with that?


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## xbrokenshieldx (Mar 5, 2007)

wow this thread is really dumb. To say that Shamrock is the most overrated fighter ever is bull shit. Shamrock may not be able to hang with the guys now, but this sport has evolved so fast that you cant expect him to. You need to look at what Shamrock did for his time. 

For example, does anyone actually think that Babe Ruth could've hit 60 home runs off the pictures now days? Or that the 1972 Miami Dolphins could have had an undefeated season in the NFL today? Or look at some of the most famous track stars. For their time they were dominant and that is what makes them so great.

Shamrock was great in his time. To say he is overrated is just stupid


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## TheGracieHunter (Dec 19, 2006)

aznmaniac0909 said:


> you do know ken shamrock was called "the world's most dangerous man" as a nick name during his days in WWF not because of his prowless in the UFC




Sorry bud but yer wrong, yes the wwf did take that name and run with it but he was named that by a tv show before he signed with wwf


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## pauly_j (Nov 28, 2006)

He did pretty well against Rich franklin, I thought.


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## TheGracieHunter (Dec 19, 2006)

That fight showed his age unfortunately. Most mens chins get a lot weaker as they get older, this was the case, the 3rd Tito fight, the Franklin fighht. He wouldnt have gone out so easily in his younger days. He just got too old to hang with the young champs it's totally understandable. Does it make him overrated? **** no


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

iceman574 said:


> DONT SAY A GUY IS RUBBISH COS HE GOT DOMINATED 3 TIMES BY THE SAME GYT THATS STUPID RANDY GOT DOMINATED TWICE BY CHUCK AND HE IS AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED A MMA GOD


Terrible arguement. You've gotta remember that Randy BEAT CHUCK FIRST. And the other 2 fights Couture was in a bad place mentality.. but unlike Shamrock, at least he put up a damn fight. Also Couture DOMINATED Tito when they fought and look how easily Ortiz dealt with Shamrock.

On top of that, Couture is OLDER THAN SHAMROCK. Put some thought into your posts before you post in my threads people.


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## derekaa (Nov 1, 2006)

Simon Phoenix said:


> Even when he was in his prime, this dude would NOT be able to stand next to the fighters who dominate MMA today.
> 
> You've gotta remember that the competition back when he made his rounds was slim pickings. I hear a lot of people sayin a young Shamrock would've beaten Tito, bullshit. Would he have been able to go 2 rounds with Chuck? Absolutely not. What about that chump Tim Sylvia? Would he be able to dominate him the way he dominated the heavyweight division back when it was ran by a hand full of 1 dimensional fighters?... the answer to that is also NO.
> 
> I give him credit for helping build the sport and becoming a house-hold name among MMA fans back before Tito knocked his ass out, but thats where it ends. Ken Shamrock's name shouldnt be mentioned in the same breath as Tito, Couture or even Tim "My mother wishes she never gave birth to me" Sylvia. it's that simple.


First to not make anyone overly angry (which seems to happen a lot in these forums i guess), Shamrock can't currently fight with the likes of crocop, liddell, or even tito. BUT!!!! The point is that clearly his style was on of the most dominant back in the day (apart from the gracies). Therefore, If Crocop, Tito, or Liddell were as one-dimensional in their respective styles as Shamrock was, they would most definitely be given a less chance of winning than Shamrock.


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## dutch sauce (Sep 24, 2006)

when shamrock was in his prime he was on of the best arond he destroyed everyone in pancrase


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

dutch sauce said:


> when shamrock was in his prime he was on of the best arond he destroyed everyone in pancrase


You've said that. And what does that have to do with anything? Did you not read any of the other posts in this thread before commenting?


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## raymardo (Jun 21, 2006)

*No, it's not that simple*



Simon Phoenix said:


> Even when he was in his prime, this dude would NOT be able to stand next to the fighters who dominate MMA today.
> 
> You've gotta remember that the competition back when he made his rounds was slim pickings. I hear a lot of people sayin a young Shamrock would've beaten Tito, bullshit. Would he have been able to go 2 rounds with Chuck? Absolutely not. What about that chump Tim Sylvia? Would he be able to dominate him the way he dominated the heavyweight division back when it was ran by a hand full of 1 dimensional fighters?... the answer to that is also NO.


I agree with what you're saying. If Ken Shamrock was in his prime and fought like he did back in the day - he wouldn't do well.

But, what you are failing to realize is that a the guys from Shamrock's era were one dimensional because they got into the sport in its early stages. If Ken was in his prime today, he would be training in all areas with top guys just like Tito, Chuck, and all the top guys.

Who knows how much better he'd be, but he certainly wouldn't be training like he was in the early 90's. 

Ken had some decent leg locks. If he was in his prime maybe he would have adapted to submissions even better.

All I'm saying is that a young Ken Shamrock - or any fighter from his era - would have trained differently if they were in their primes today, and that would effect how they would fare against today's fighters. 

Ken would have been a different fighter if he started his training when Tito Ortiz did, and that would have made for a different fight. It doesn't mean Ken would have won, but it would have been a different fight.


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## LionsDen32 (Feb 4, 2007)

Simon Phoenix said:


> Even when he was in his prime, this dude would NOT be able to stand next to the fighters who dominate MMA today.
> 
> You've gotta remember that the competition back when he made his rounds was slim pickings. I hear a lot of people sayin a young Shamrock would've beaten Tito, bullshit. Would he have been able to go 2 rounds with Chuck? Absolutely not. What about that chump Tim Sylvia? Would he be able to dominate him the way he dominated the heavyweight division back when it was ran by a hand full of 1 dimensional fighters?... the answer to that is also NO.
> 
> I give him credit for helping build the sport and becoming a house-hold name among MMA fans back before Tito knocked his ass out, but thats where it ends. Ken Shamrock's name shouldnt be mentioned in the same breath as Tito, Couture or even Tim "My mother wishes she never gave birth to me" Sylvia. it's that simple.



ur a fkin retard


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## Randy GNP (Nov 24, 2006)

Shamrock was good in his day and thats all there is to it. He hasd pretty good strikes and a better than average ground game. No he wouldn't be a top level fighter today, but if he were trained in all the arts he could be.

He was a pioneer of his time. He was at least somewhat well rounded, something very few fighters back then can say. If he were born in a time when people realized the importance of being well rounded he could have been greath. HE is a very atheletic guy with a natural fighting spirit. In his day he had good boxing, great leg locks, and good chokes. This was enough back then. The problem is that he was to used to this being enough and he never adapted when the sport evolved. If he had come into the sport post-evolution he could have easily been a force to be reckoned with.


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## xbrokenshieldx (Mar 5, 2007)

guys dont even listen to simon phoenix. his posts are all the most retarded things. First he said randy coutures biggest strength is his striking and then he said matt hamill is a world class striker. He is a boy who obvioulsy knows very little about MMA


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

xbrokenshieldx said:


> guys dont even listen to simon phoenix. his posts are all the most retarded things. First he said randy coutures biggest strength is his striking and then he said matt hamill is a world class striker. He is a boy who obvioulsy knows very little about MMA


Says the kid who for some reason can't seem to stay away from my threads


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## xbrokenshieldx (Mar 5, 2007)

haha.. its because all of your threads are so ridiculous its hard not to. Your like FOX news.. you hate to watch it but you cant stop


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

xbrokenshieldx said:


> haha.. its because all of your threads are so ridiculous its hard not to. Your like FOX news.. you hate to watch it but you cant stop


If you don't agree or happen to be fond of the thread, do us all a favor and skip over it instead of spamming the forum with irrelevant comments that people have to skip over when they're trying to post.


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

Randy GNP said:


> Shamrock was good in his day and thats all there is to it. He hasd pretty good strikes and a better than average ground game. No he wouldn't be a top level fighter today, but if he were trained in all the arts he could be.
> 
> He was a pioneer of his time. He was at least somewhat well rounded, something very few fighters back then can say. If he were born in a time when people realized the importance of being well rounded he could have been greath. HE is a very atheletic guy with a natural fighting spirit. In his day he had good boxing, great leg locks, and good chokes. This was enough back then. The problem is that he was to used to this being enough and he never adapted when the sport evolved. If he had come into the sport post-evolution he could have easily been a force to be reckoned with.


Well said :thumbsup:


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## jamlena (Oct 15, 2006)

Simon Phoenix said:


> If you don't agree or happen to be fond of the thread, do us all a favor and skip over it instead of spamming the forum with irrelevant comments that people have to skip over when they're trying to post.


Blah, Blah, Blah, seriously Simon do you ever have anything good to say about anyone or anything???


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

xbrokenshieldx said:


> haha.. its because all of your threads are so ridiculous its hard not to. Your like FOX news.. you hate to watch it but you cant stop


lol great analogy. lol


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

jamlena said:


> Blah, Blah, Blah, seriously Simon do you ever have anything good to say about anyone or anything???


I'm a fair critic of MMA and give all fighters their fair due. Shamrock is probably the only fighter i'v been critical of since signing up here so your post holds no weight.


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## xbrokenshieldx (Mar 5, 2007)

simon your an idiot. What Randy said is exactly what you have been criticizing all of us for saying. If you go back and look at most people posts you will see that people said "Shamrock was great IN HIS DAY. That he had good standing good leg locks and good ground. But he cant compete with the fighters today..


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## jamlena (Oct 15, 2006)

Simon Phoenix said:


> I'm a fair critic of MMA and give all fighters their fair due. Shamrock is probably the only fighter i'v been critical of since signing up here so your post holds no weight.


O.K. if you say so :thumbsup:


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

xbrokenshieldx said:


> simon *your* an idiot. What Randy said is exactly what you have been criticizing all of us for saying. If you go back and look at most people posts you will see that people said "Shamrock was great IN HIS DAY. That he had good standing good leg locks and good ground. But he cant compete with the fighters today..


LOL at this dude calling people stupid when he doesnt know how to spell "you're"

And the only people i criticized were those who said he would be able to stand next to the fighters of today with the limitted skill-set he possessed back in his time. I never said he wasnt a pioneer, and i never said he wasnt one of the best of his time. Read before you post.


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## jamlena (Oct 15, 2006)

Simon Phoenix said:


> LOL at this dude calling people stupid when he doesnt know how to spell "you're"
> 
> And the only people i criticized were those who said he would be able to stand next to the fighters of today with the limitted skill-set he possessed back in his time. I never said he wasnt a pioneer, and i never said he wasnt one of the best of his time. Read before you post.


Simon Phoenix 
Contender




Join Date: Mar 2007
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Prediction: Tito challenges Hammill and gets KO'd be his deaf protege before the 3rd round 

--------------------------------------------------
And you are making fun of other people's spelling, please read your own post above...:cheeky4: :laugh: :cheeky4: should I go get more, because there are plenty!!!! LOL BIG TIME


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## xbrokenshieldx (Mar 5, 2007)

Simon Phoenix said:


> LOL *at* this dude calling people stupid when he *doesnt* know how to spell "you're"
> 
> And the only people *i* criticized were those who said he would be able to stand next to the fighters of today with the *limitted* skill-set he possessed back in his time. I never said he *wasnt* a pioneer, and *i* never said he *wasnt* one of the best of his time. Read before you post.


I didn't realize grammar was such a big deal when your posting on MMA forums, sorry Simon. Anyways, I bolded some mistakes that you made. So why don't you "stop wasting peoples time with your spam posts that people are just going to have to skip over.


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## jamlena (Oct 15, 2006)

xbrokenshieldx said:


> I didn't realize grammar was such a big deal when your posting on MMA forums, sorry Simon. Anyways, I bolded some mistakes that you made. So why don't you "stop wasting peoples time with your spam posts that people are just going to have to skip over.


*LOL BIG TIME*:laugh: :laugh:


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## creotine (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL, at least I know who the local troll is. Seriously people havent you figured out by now he just here to rile people up and start arguments.


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

xbrokenshieldx said:


> I didn't realize grammar was such a big deal when your posting on MMA forums, sorry Simon. Anyways, I bolded some mistakes that you made. So why don't you "stop wasting peoples time with your spam posts that people are just going to have to skip over.


Usually when i don't agree with someone or don't find interest in their posts, i don't click on their threads and post several times in every thread they make.

Kill the obsession and stay on your side of the forum. It's for the better.


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## TheGracieHunter (Dec 19, 2006)

so............shall we just call it a day on this thread then?


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## T.B. (Jul 4, 2006)

As far as Ken being the *MOST OVERRATED* fighter in the history of MMA...that's a tad bit of a heavy claim.

A lot of the posters in this thread are failing to step back at look at the picture from a farther perspective.

Ken, back in his prime, YES he was a beast. His fight at UFC 1 versus Pat Smith, UFC 3 fights versus Christophe Leininger, Felix Lee Mitchell, his UFC 6 fight versus Dan Severn, his UFC 8 fight versus Kimo Leopoldo....he was a monster back then. All his fights in Pancrase. I mean, the man beat Bas Rutten *TWICE* in Pancrase, back in 1994 & 1995. *THAT ALONE*, says something for him. So, your claim of him being overrated holds no validity.

Check out this link:

Ken Shamrock's Mixed Martial Arts Statistics

Look at Ken's resume. It's *DAMN* impressive. It's amazing to me how consistent his fighting schedule was back then. Look at how often he competed. NO ONE does that these days. (For instance, look at Chuck Liddell as of late. He faced Randy at UFC 57. His next fight wasn't until UFC 62. Then, his next fight wasn't until UFC 66. See what I'm referring to? Those are at LEAST 3 1/2-4-or even 5 month layoffs.) Granted, Ken had some 1-1 1/2 month breaks in there, but most the time he didn't have THAT much of a layoff. Certainly not as much as these "super athletes" have today. That's impressive to me.

Now, hear me out here. I understand that Ken would have been able to do that back then in those times, because the level of athlete that stepped into the ring and/or cage back then was NOWHERE near where these guys are today. SO many fighters these days, with so many skills, and are so-well rounded....that *EVERYONE* takes ample punishment when they step in there.

Simon isn't very far off here though guys. Listen...Ken was a BEAST - back in his prime. Back in his hayday. you know, 93 to 96. That was 10 f*ckin' years ago man! The sport of MMA these days, has *FAR SURPASSED* his talent / skill level.

If Ken were younger, and in his prime right now, like say a Matt Hughes is....he would still be handled like Tito did to him. That's *ONLY* comparing if he used the skill-set he used back then. We can't say "what would he do against today's best?, unless he had a similar skill set to all these stars of today..." because quite frankly, Ken never evolved his knowledge of the sport. He was competing against guys like Kimo, Franklin, Sakuraba, and Ortiz with his "old-school style." His "old-school gameplan." His "old-school mentality." That doesn't work in this era. Look what happened in *EVERY* fight he was in with the newer-era guys. *HE LOST* (except for against Kimo...but Kimo was probably just as clueless as Kenny at UFC 48. He put his head right down in front of Shamrock's knee and waited to get put out...like "Here Ken. Here it is...finish me off").

So, a lot of Ken's current fight outcomes were simply his own fault. His punishment (no pun intended) for not expanding his BJJ knowledge. For not refining his skill-set to today's HIGHER standards. Simple fact. The sport just evolved *WAY TOO QUICKLY* for Ken, and he quite simply put, never caught up. I mean, just look at his coaching performance on T.U.F. 3. It seemed like he was lost quite a bit of the time. He did a garbage job coaching, because he had no experience *AT ALL*, in all the new techniques guys were displaying, and asking him for pointers about. That's why his team got completely dominated. Ken couldn't help 'em out.

But to say he's the most *OVERRATED FIGHTER IN THE HISTORY OF MMA*...c'mon now. Even I can't stand by and listen to that claim. It was just an instance of a guy who dominated in his prime, when the sport only had one-dimensional fighters...and he was ahead of the curve, BACK THEN. But, he held on for too long, and thought he could compete in an ever-evolving sport, without improving and/or refining his skills...and he wasn't getting any younger....and we all know what happened after he returned. 

Probably just a pride issue for Ken, to tell you the truth. *"My way can still get it done against all these young guys. I've been throught the fire many times already. I'm a seasoned veteran...and I'm gonna show these kids who's the boss. I'm gonna teach 'em the meaning of RESPECT!"*

Alright...I'm done rambling for now. But, that's just my 2 cents.


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## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

You can't say he couldn't stand up to them, because new forms have evolved and new moves are known and ways of fighting.

Think about a young Ken Shamrock, able to train in BJJ and Striking with the top notch trainers these guys have today.


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## ZeroPRIDE (Apr 12, 2006)

The thing is he didnt evolve WITH the sport as it was going on. He may have been better than he used to or well rounded than he was before. But since he had to learn and not evolve with it was his biggest disadvantage. I think hes a good fighter and a legend but hes not overrated in my book. Hes not the best but hes deff not the worste


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## dutch sauce (Sep 24, 2006)

TREY B. said:


> As far as Ken being the *MOST OVERRATED* fighter in the history of MMA...that's a tad bit of a heavy claim.
> 
> A lot of the posters in this thread are failing to step back at look at the picture from a farther perspective.
> 
> ...


i totally agree u get rep great post.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

A guy who has tapped Dan Severn and beat Bas Rutten twice isn't overrated. He didn't just beat Bas twice, he tooled him twice. 

I mean, yea, Ken was once overrated, but he went from overrated to underrated over the years. People don't even give him credit anymore, and that sort of sucks. Granted, Ken did a lot of that to himself, but atleast he fought tough guys.


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## ZeroPRIDE (Apr 12, 2006)

You forgot about the war with Frye. Which is probly my favorite fight of all time.


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## Negative1 (Feb 4, 2007)

Well yea he fought a guy like Tito who is in the middle of his career and thinks of not but fighting and he got beat twice in under a total of 5 minutes.

He fricken beat Ken's ass.

When he got knocked out the third fight, It made me sick watching that I wanted Ken to do good in that last fight and it jsut didnt happen. Then there was a post fight interview on Youtube with Ken.

He basically states that his body just cannot compete with these athletes today and that he respects Tito for the way he acts after the fights and understands that it is part of his career.

True words spoken from a humble man. It would be an honor to meet and shake hands with him, I would congratulate him on all his success as a fighter from over the last 15 years.

Overrated, Hardly.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Adora said:


> You forgot about the war with Frye. Which is probly my favorite fight of all time.


Great, great fight. You know you're seeing something special when the staredown is epic.

People keep praising Chonan's flyin' heel hook, and rightfully so(It was cool), but Ken pulled that shit off before him. Keep in mind that this was post-2000 Ken Shamrock pulling off a flyin' freakin' heel hook. Frye didn't tap, but he never taps.


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## ZeroPRIDE (Apr 12, 2006)

yea when i first saw that fight and the staredown it gave me goosebumps. ok that was a little gay


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## jU-iCe (Feb 5, 2007)

I never really did like Ken Shammrock but I think the most overrated fighter in the history of MMA is a little to much lol.


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## The 23 Enigma (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm not getting into the over-rated argument, but I would like to say that I credit Shamrock with me wathing MMA. I was a pro-wrestling fan as a kid (still am), and I only watched UFC for the first time because I recognized Shamrock from WWE and TNA. I respect him for what he's done, and thank him for the entertainment, but I'm glad he's done. He just doesn't have it anymore.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Ken also got me into MMA. Frank Shamrock made me stay into MMA.


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## raymardo (Jun 21, 2006)

xbrokenshieldx said:


> haha.. its because all of your threads are so ridiculous its hard not to. Your like FOX news.. you hate to watch it but you cant stop


FUNNY!!!!!


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## raymardo (Jun 21, 2006)

*Great Post*



TREY B. said:


> As far as Ken being the *MOST OVERRATED* fighter in the history of MMA...that's a tad bit of a heavy claim.
> 
> A lot of the posters in this thread are failing to step back at look at the picture from a farther perspective.
> 
> ...


Not rambling, brother - well put. Similar to what I posted previously. Who knows how Ken would have progressed if he trained with today's fighters *while he was in his prime.*

I repped you for your post.


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## xbrokenshieldx (Mar 5, 2007)

all of the last 10 or 20 points nailed it dead on! Good shit guys


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## Simon Phoenix (Mar 4, 2007)

TREY B. said:


> As far as Ken being the *MOST OVERRATED* fighter in the history of MMA...that's a tad bit of a heavy claim.
> 
> A lot of the posters in this thread are failing to step back at look at the picture from a farther perspective.
> 
> ...


Good points.. you deserve credit for this point

I'd respond and add something to what you said, but im afraid whatever mod gave me a warning for "making the same post twice" is gonna give me another warning for repeating my arguement in my own thread so i guess this discussion is over.


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## MetalMunkey (Oct 14, 2006)

Simon Phoenix said:


> Good points.. you deserve credit for this point
> 
> I'd respond and add something to what you said, but im afraid whatever mod gave me a warning for "making the same post twice" is gonna give me another warning for repeating my arguement in my own thread so i guess this discussion is over.


FINALLY!!


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Let me just say that Ken Shamrock with sideburns and purple undies could beat Fedor. He'd have to have both things, though. Because, Fedor is great like that.


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## Lethal (Mar 3, 2007)

Ever since I watched Shamrock quit a fight that he was dominating in a PRIDE match, I lost whatever respect I had left for him. Seriously! Beating the crap out of someone then holds on to the ropes like a little girl saying throw in the towel, Im done. Ya he was done alright.


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## TheGracieHunter (Dec 19, 2006)

His heart was racing and he was in pretty severe danger.......what a ***** for giving up and getting the medics to slow his heart down huh?such a *****.....sarcasm rules


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## Barrym (Nov 19, 2006)

Simon Phoenix said:


> LOL at this dude calling people stupid when he doesnt know how to spell "you're"
> 
> And the only people i criticized were those who said he would be able to stand next to the fighters of today with the limitted skill-set he possessed back in his time. I never said he wasnt a pioneer, and i never said he wasnt one of the best of his time. Read before you post.


 How can you comment on his spelling when you can't spell limited? Simon your a retard,everyone on this forum knows it,and everyone would be happier if you just dissapeared.


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## spiritofbattle (Feb 5, 2007)

ken shamrock should not come back. it will be humiliating for him, he will be like a can only older

don't get me wrong, i believ shammy is a pioneer of the sport also and nothing should be taken from him. he is a legend and it should stay that way.

lastly, i am officially on the "simon phoenix is a retard" band wagon.


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