# ***OFFICIAL*** Cain Velasquez vs. Fabricio Werdum Thread



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

*Main event*











* Heavyweight bout: 265 pound Limit*
*Main event - Five round fight for the UFC Heavyweight Title*















Paid Members don't forget to submit your picks for the UFC 188 Championship Pick em' ---> http://www.mmaforum.com/championship-pick-em-league/205522-ufc-188-championship-pick-em.html


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## King Daisuke (Mar 25, 2013)

Cain, TKO.


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## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

Couple years ago I was counting the days until each UFC event, now, I'm barely even interested in this one. 

Can't wait for Conor-Aldo though! :thumb02:


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## hixxy (Sep 7, 2007)

Im a bit like that, but its probably more due to the fact the more amount of cards there are now as opposed to a few years back. 

Looking forward to this fight though, and seeing Cain back in the Octagon. That together with the immense improvement Werdum has made should make for a good fight.

Still taking Cain though, either by tko or dominant decision.


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## prospect (Mar 26, 2014)

Leed said:


> Couple years ago I was counting the days until each UFC event, now, I'm barely even interested in this one.
> 
> Can't wait for Conor-Aldo though! :thumb02:


Awh come on now. This fight is 7 years in the making, At least according to me it is


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## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

prospect said:


> Awh come on now. This fight is 7 years in the making, At least according to me it is


I know it's a big fight, but what can I do if I don't feel the excitement anymore?


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## prospect (Mar 26, 2014)

Dickhead, WHY CANT YOU FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

I think Werdum makes this a real fight, if not wins.

I think a lot of pressure on Cain for one. He missed the first Mexico card. Werdum won there and has some fans there, probably feels rather comfortable. Werdum is one of the only guys that Cain may not be able to resort to takedowns and feel like he is in no danger for one. Cain long layoff. Werdum is a legit sized HW. Werdum just has that happy confidence to where I think he can pull it off.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> I think Werdum makes this a real fight, if not wins.
> 
> I think a lot of pressure on Cain for one. He missed the first Mexico card. Werdum won there and has some fans there, probably feels rather comfortable. Werdum is one of the only guys that Cain may not be able to resort to takedowns and feel like he is in no danger for one. Cain long layoff. Werdum is a legit sized HW. Werdum just has that happy confidence to where I think he can pull it off.


I agree. People always sleep on Werdum. Ever since the JDS fight 20 years ago.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Cain Velasquez Vs Fabricio Werdum isn't a good enough fight for you guys? Damn man, you guys may as well quit watching now.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

This is the fight I've been waiting for a long time, can't believe people are so ho-hum about it... probably the lack of hype behind it with the injuries tailing it off earlier. Exciting fight, still think Cain takes it, but Werdum makes it tough style wise. Wouldn't be shocked if he latches on a sub. 

Decent card too, Gil vs Eddie is a top 5 contender bout, Gastelum is still a solid top 10 prospect vs a good gatekeeper in Nate, and Cejudo is the most credentialed wrestler in MMA right now, enough to make me interested.


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## Warning (Nov 18, 2009)

Werdum win via Showtime Kick.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> This is the fight I've been waiting for a long time, can't believe people are so ho-hum about it... probably the lack of hype behind it with the injuries tailing it off earlier. Exciting fight, still think Cain takes it, but Werdum makes it tough style wise. Wouldn't be shocked if he latches on a sub.
> 
> Decent card too, Gil vs Eddie is a top 5 contender bout, Gastelum is still a solid top 10 prospect vs a good gatekeeper in Nate, and Cejudo is the most credentialed wrestler in MMA right now, enough to make me interested.


I can't believe more people aren't talking about Melendez/Alvarez. Before they were in the UFC people would have killed to see it. 2 of the best LW's in the world and former champions going at it.


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## ReptilianSlayer (Sep 2, 2013)

If Cain's on form and fully recovered, he annihilates anyone in the HW division, including Werdum.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

ReptilianSlayer said:


> If Cain's on form and fully recovered, he annihilates anyone in the HW division, including Werdum.


I disagree. (surprise)

this forum has built cain into superman because he is outstanding at beating JDS and Bigfoot. that's it. that's all he's done to earn his "unbeatable" status *in 5 years*..

what's his best win besides that? brock?? brock sucks. just ask the forum.

Werdum will submit the very best Cain that ever stepped into the octagon and the excuses and tears will flow. :thumb02:


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Although oldfan did just say "This forum is wrong in holding Cain to such a high esteem" and then followed it up with "Brock sucks. Ask the forum for proof" , I'm inclined to agree.

I called Cain Vs JDS 2 down to the exact punch, but that doesn't make Cain an incredible striker by any means. He can land hard and he's fast for the weight class so that's solid but I wouldn't really say he's an elite striker. Neither is Werdum, but Werdum just KOed Hunt and absolutely destroyed Browne with his striking. It's not impressible for Werdum to dominate on the feet, although I don't think it will happen.

Really, the ground game you have to edge Cain but CAN'T rule out Werdum.

This fight CAN go either way. You can predict one or the other but it's not one you can put your house on which is why I've been looking forward to it for ages.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Although oldfan did just say "This forum is wrong in holding Cain to such a high esteem" and then followed it up with *"Brock sucks. Ask the forum for proof"* , I'm inclined to agree.
> 
> I called Cain Vs JDS 2 down to the exact punch, but that doesn't make Cain an incredible striker by any means. He can land hard and he's fast for the weight class so that's solid but I wouldn't really say he's an elite striker. Neither is Werdum, but Werdum just KOed Hunt and absolutely destroyed Browne with his striking. It's not impressible for Werdum to dominate on the feet, although I don't think it will happen.
> 
> ...


That was sarcasm dummy. because the same experts who put cain on a pedestal also discredit his opponents. How can cain be so GREAT when all of his opponents sucked?? Only the forum ex spurts know for sure.


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## Warning (Nov 18, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> This fight CAN go either way. You can predict one or the other but it's not one you can put your house on which is why I've been looking forward to it for ages.


Yep. I do not have the slightest clue who is going to win.
I don't even know who to root for. I like them both.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Werdum will be the first non-one-dimensional fighter Velasquez has fought. With his BJJ and his now pretty decent striking, I give Werdum the advantage in the first three rounds. But he probably has to finish Velasquez in that time. If Velasquez makes it out of the third, the fight is probably his by cardio overwhelming Werdum to a TKO.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Cain should win this no problem. He's a better fighter, and he's also a very smart fighter. Werdum gets credit for beating Fedor, but Fedor would have won easily had he not gone full retard and jumped into his guard when he was destroying him on the feet. Cain won't make a mistake like that, he should finish him with his usual non stop pressure by round 3.


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## bringingthebiff (Jun 4, 2015)

Cant see werdumb getting past cain... its annoying that he only defends the title every lunar eclipse because he is tons of fun to watch


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## tommydaone (Feb 19, 2010)

Cain will steamroll him. Won't be close.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

werdeum's going to bitch slap him and dare him to go for a takedown but cain will fear the ground and lose a kickboxing match.

Cain will think the clinch is where he wants to be until he eats some knees.

...or maybe he gets a TD.... that won't be good for him either..

JDS = boxer
Brock = wrestler
bigfoot = bigfoot

....whatever happens this will be cain's first ever test against a top level *well rounded* mixed martial artist unless you count staph nog.


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## ReptilianSlayer (Sep 2, 2013)

oldfan said:


> I disagree. (surprise)
> 
> this forum has built cain into superman because he is outstanding at beating JDS and Bigfoot. that's it. that's all he's done to earn his "unbeatable" status *in 5 years*..
> 
> ...


Velasquez has steamrolled through so many in the HW division. Complete and utter domination, that's why people think he's superman.

Brock Lesnar was a heavy favorite leading up to the Cain fight, I could dig up old posts from this forum where most thought Brock was going to smash Cain - the opposite happened, Brock got smashed.

People like to downplay the JDS wins (two of the most one sided beatdowns I've ever seen) and forget that JDS was also hyped up as the man to rule the HW division. Cain crushed him.

Hopefully he stops training like an idiot at AKA and stays injury free and proves to the world that he's a fckin monster.

If Cain's healthy, he overwhelms and gasses Werdum in two rounds and beats him senseless.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

:cheeky4:


ReptilianSlayer said:


> *Velasquez has steamrolled through so many in the HW divisio*n. Complete and utter domination, that's why people think he's superman.
> 
> Brock Lesnar was a heavy favorite leading up to the Cain fight, I could dig up old posts from this forum where most thought Brock was going to smash Cain - the opposite happened, Brock got smashed.
> 
> ...





oldfan said:


> werdeum's going to bitch slap him and dare him to go for a takedown but cain will fear the ground and lose a kickboxing match.
> 
> Cain will think the clinch is where he wants to be until he eats some knees.
> 
> ...


Cain has steamrolled so many named JDS and bigfoot except when he was getting KO'd by the same.


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

Huge test for Cain!
I gotta tell ya that I was never a believer in Werdum but he has looked pretty impressive lately. 

Werdum's key to victory is catching Cain in a sub. Dude's guard is absolutely scary! 

With that being said, I still believe Cain will win this. He will fight smart like he always does, defend from the subs and bring it to Werdum non stop. 

I'm picking Cain by late stoppage in the 4th/5th or by very lopsided UD. 


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## Aiken (May 3, 2010)

I predict Cain getting sucker-subbed just like Fedor did...

Cain loves him some ground and pound and Werdum will be more than happy to fall on his back, throw up his legs and arm-bar or triangle choke Cain...

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this fight end in the first; and will be genuinely surprised if Cain is even able to make this competitive...


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Here's hoping Werdum destroys Cain's overrated ass. I honestly think he has the ability if he can fight long and use angles to keep Cain from pushing him on the fence.

He needs to take the center of the cage and keep it.


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## MK. (Dec 16, 2012)

Cain via being the better rested fighter.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Rygu said:


> Cain should win this no problem. He's a better fighter, and he's also a very smart fighter. Werdum gets credit for beating Fedor, but Fedor would have won easily had he not gone full retard and jumped into his guard when he was destroying him on the feet. Cain won't make a mistake like that, he should finish him with his usual non stop pressure by round 3.


Not saying you are totally wrong. But Cain is a wrestler and goes for takedowns. Fedor was striking and jumped into guard. Cain is a wrestler and looks for takedowns anyway.

Cain has good hands. Good fundamentals. But like aith many wrestlers...their striking becomes better with a threat of throwing a guy on his back and riding him. Werdum doesnt have to worry about gettting taken down as much as others with literally nothing off their back.

Bot totally saying Werdum is better. But his skills make cain at least have to think about the danger of going into takedown mode. A mode he can just throw in auto pilot vs virtually anyone else. It at least makes Cain not just resort to wrestling no problem. It also lets Werdum more loose osn the feet unlike JDS or most any others.

Cain prolly will be looking to do a lot of wall riding and clinching.


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## King Daisuke (Mar 25, 2013)

You all must have forgotten. It's good that Cain is finally back to remind you.


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## prospect (Mar 26, 2014)

I disagree with the idea that If werdum won it would be by a sub. think cain will defend properly and not get submitted. but I do see werdum out striking cain.

I don't think we ever saw werdum being pressured the way cain is gonna pressure him. And cain is gonna have to be very cautious standing up, in the clinch and on the ground. 

Also did werdum seriously say that cain is an American who thinks he's a Mexican? LOL


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

It wouldn't surprise me if Cain made a statement and smashed up Werdum from inside his guard. Hunt was able to stifle Werdum there, Cain could too.

I think Werdum can knock Cain out standing though...


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

oldfan said:


> That was sarcasm dummy. because the same experts who put cain on a pedestal also discredit his opponents. How can cain be so GREAT when all of his opponents sucked?? Only the forum ex spurts know for sure.


Ahhh I missed it.

I don't think Werdum will win this by submission. As I always say, Cain doesn't like the guard. He prefers control. He'll try to control this against the clinch and take Weidman down from the back-mount position, or whatever you call it in the clinch.

I do think Werdum CAN be the dominant striker but I think he'll be too scared of being controlled by wrestling.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

I think Werdum can get a sub but he would have to do it before Rnd. 3 because Cain will probably gas him out by then.

Fun fight to try to call. Cain is relentless with his pressure in going for takedowns/clinches, while Werdum welcomes such things with open arms. IDK what to expect, really. Good stuff.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

ReptilianSlayer said:


> oldfan said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree. (surprise)
> ...


I dont recall Brock being a heavy favorite. Perhaps on this forum of hype buyers. But my cloudy memory remembers like less than a 2 to 1 favorite. Which is by no means big for mma.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

I was just getting into MMA properly around the time of Brock and Cain, but I REALLY don't think people would have been heavy Brock fans for that fight. I remember debating with people that Brock shouldn't have been stopped in the Carwin fight while everyone thought he should have.


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## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> ReptilianSlayer said:
> 
> 
> > oldfan said:
> ...


He was 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 when it was just announced. It went down later on, so people obviously were thinking otherwise.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

King Daisuke said:


> You all must have forgotten. It's good that Cain is finally back to remind you.


I actually like Cain a lot. I haven't forgotten how utterly dominant he can be. I also haven't forgotten that he hasn't fought anyone outside of JDS and Bigfoot since 2010 and hasn't stepped into the octagon since 2013.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Actually sorry, seems like most good members of the forum had it even or to Brock, and everyone else probably roots for Cain out of hate for Brock or trying to be "original" or something so yeah, Brock was probably overhyped big time.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Leed said:


> jonnyg4508 said:
> 
> 
> > ReptilianSlayer said:
> ...


According to besfightodds brock opened at -125. It rose a little. Could still find brok at less than 2 to 1 by fight time.

The books never had him a big fav.


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## ReptilianSlayer (Sep 2, 2013)

I just re-read through the official Cain/Lesnar thread...fun times. My fave prediction is UFC OWNS' arm triangle submission by Brock!

http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/82941-official-brock-lesnar-vs-cain-velasquez-discussion-thread.html

Bring back Alzio! That guy could scout out MMA talent like no other. I think from Cain's birth he predicted him to be champ.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

ReptilianSlayer said:


> I just re-read through the official Cain/Lesnar thread...fun times. My fave prediction is UFC OWNS' arm triangle submission by Brock!
> 
> http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/82941-official-brock-lesnar-vs-cain-velasquez-discussion-thread.html
> 
> Bring back Alzio! That guy could scout out MMA talent like no other. I think from Cain's birth he predicted him to be champ.


I didnt read 49 pages of the stuff. But basing off the 1st page....Cain was getting tons of love going into that fight.


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## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

ReptilianSlayer said:


> I just re-read through the official Cain/Lesnar thread...fun times. My fave prediction is UFC OWNS' arm triangle submission by Brock!
> 
> http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/82941-official-brock-lesnar-vs-cain-velasquez-discussion-thread.html
> 
> Bring back Alzio! That guy could scout out MMA talent like no other. I think from Cain's birth he predicted him to be champ.


I was on Cain bandwagon from the start. Was in Alizio camp  

That said. Only way I see Werdum win is by miracle sub.

And when I see Hunt sitting in Werdum guard for good 3mins. I dont think that Cain will have problem with it.

True is that I didnt believe in miracle sub by Werdum in Fedor fight. I kinda posted similar thoughts about Fedor vs Werdum and Cain vs Werdum. Funny


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Atilak said:


> I was on Cain bandwagon from the start. Was in Alizio camp
> 
> That said. Only way I see Werdum win is by miracle sub.
> 
> ...


Thats the thing with BJJ guys they always act like closed guard is a neutral position and they never fight with urgency to escape the position.

I think the key to beating Cain is to keep the fight off the cage and out kickbox him Werdum as much as I want him to win might not be able to escape Cains grappling.

If he cant get up Id say he's done for so here's hoping he's in shape, relatively uninjured and mentally prepared, if Cain wins I wouldn't be shocked.

I wonder about cage rust, all the usual questions when a guy has been out for so long bla bla but still this is a fight Cain should win right? I just hope its competitive and lasts a few rounds.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

I think Werdum is a tough fight for Cain, and the timing of this fight is hugely in his favor.

This will be the first time we see Cain tire before his opponent does.


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## ReptilianSlayer (Sep 2, 2013)

SM33 said:


> I think Werdum is a tough fight for Cain, and the timing of this fight is hugely in his favor.
> 
> *This will be the first time we see Cain tire before his opponent does.*


lol. I don't think so.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

Werdum seems to tired in just about every fight he is in... so yeah, i think not.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

the term "miracle sub" is funny. As if it would be a miracle for a BJJ world champ to catch a wrestler in a sub. :confused02: ... now if cain subs werdum that could qualify.

I re-watched Werdum/nelson a few minutes ago. Roy is tough as hell and he managed to land a couple of big rights, but for the most part it looked like a man beating up a fat boy.

I saw Cain on countdown insisting that his standup is better than Werdum's. I think he will try to prove it. I also think he's wrong. 

As long as his cardio holds out, werdum can win this standing or on the ground. as long as his cardio holds out. Surely he knows he needs the best cardio of his life here.


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

It's good to see that people are giving Werdum a chance here as the polls are split 50/50 right now. Cain's trainer seems overly confident. Good thing Cain is not taking the fight lightly.


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## King Daisuke (Mar 25, 2013)

Werdum seems to like a slower paced fight, like the coasting job he did against Travis Browne. Also, like someone already mentioned, Mark Hunt willingly went to the ground with him, and Werdum couldn't do shit to the guy with "no ground game" (as the internet says. :confused01: ). 

Now that he's pissed off Cain, Werdums chances just went from 10% to 3%.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Now that cain's pissed off???

because he wasn't going to try his best to hurt Werdum before??

If cain really is pissed (I doubt it), it can only help Werdum.


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## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

oldfan said:


> the term "miracle sub" is funny. As if it would be a miracle for a BJJ world champ to catch a wrestler in a sub. :confused02: ... now if cain subs werdum that could qualify.
> 
> I re-watched Werdum/nelson a few minutes ago. Roy is tough as hell and he managed to land a couple of big rights, but for the most part it looked like a man beating up a fat boy.
> 
> ...


I use this term, because i believe that its his only chance. Slap miracle sub that will save him from beating of his life. 

You think that Werdum has better striking. I found this rather amusing :thumb02:



SM33 said:


> I think Werdum is a tough fight for Cain, and the timing of this fight is hugely in his favor.
> 
> This will be the first time we see Cain tire before his opponent does.



If Werdum will have better cardio than Cain it will be bigger surprise than Weidman KOing Silva. 
You seriously cant think that, do you?


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Atilak said:


> You think that Werdum has better striking. I found this rather amusing :thumb02:


Cain doesn't have this super elite striking. I mean he KO'd old man Nog, gor KO'd by JDS and then beat up JDS against the cage. But there isn't enough there to say Cain is this striking expert that is simply going to beat Werdum on his feet.

Werdum's striking has improved MASSIVELY over the years.


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## ReptilianSlayer (Sep 2, 2013)

oldfan said:


> Now that cain's pissed off???
> 
> because he wasn't going to try his best to hurt Werdum before??
> 
> If cain really is pissed (I doubt it), it can only help Werdum.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

That fight was pretty sad, Werdum's only plan going in was for Overeem to gift him a sub.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Joabbuac said:


> That fight was pretty sad, Werdum's only plan going in was for Overeem to gift him a sub.


....ok


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

oldfan said:


> ....ok


Ha... i am actually pretty surprised to see this. I honestly just remember Werdum flopping over and over and me getting annoyed with him. 

But what ever, Werdum has still improved his striking a bucket load. In fact, i feel it's his best shot at winning against Cain.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

And that was Overoid vs. Werdum, not Overeem.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

there's no doubt who won the staredown :laugh:


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Werdum gon' get stomped. First round TKO.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

M.C said:


> Werdum gon' get stomped. First round TKO.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App














> “I expect a different win. I want to surprise the entire world one more time, especially the doubters. It won’t be easy, though. In a perfect world, I see him trying to take me down. I land a front kick to the body or his face, or I submit him quickly after he takes me down. In a more realistic scenario, I see him gassing after three or four rounds. People will be surprised. They are used to watching Velasquez with that non-stop rhythm, but he’s not used with high-altitude and hasn’t fought in two years. We’ll see.”


:thumb02:


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

oldfan said:


> :thumb02:



This fight should bring him back to reality where he got dropped multiple times against hunt and lost every second of the fight except for one knee, that too against a guy that always has his hands down. 

I see Werdum being finished in brutal fashion early in the fight. 


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

M.C said:


> This fight should bring him back to reality where he got dropped multiple times against hunt and lost every second of the fight except for one knee, that too against a guy that always has his hands down.
> 
> I see Werdum being finished in brutal fashion early in the fight.
> 
> ...


Hunt's striking is like 5 billion times Cain's striking.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

HitOrGetHit said:


> Hunt's striking is like 5 billion times Cain's striking.



I disagree. Cain knocked Bigfoot out twice, out-struck JDS 2 of their 3 fights, and has pretty much always won in the striking department during his fights. Hunt on the other hand lost to JDS in a striking fight and got KO'd and went to a draw with Bigfoot in a striking match.

Cain has looked far more impressive on the feet than Hunt against the same opponents. Werdum has nothing for him on the feet in my opinion, he is going to batter him there. 

Werdum is going to get beaten like a red headed step child. 

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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

M.C said:


> I disagree. Cain knocked Bigfoot out twice, out-struck JDS 2 of their 3 fights, and has pretty much always won in the striking department during his fights. Hunt on the other hand lost to JDS in a striking fight and got KO'd and went to a draw with Bigfoot in a striking match.
> 
> Cain has looked far more impressive on the feet than Hunt against the same opponents. Werdum has nothing for him on the feet in my opinion, he is going to batter him there.
> 
> ...


Cain's success against JDS was based heavily around takedowns and pushing JDS against the cage. Areas where Werdum is much more dangerous than JDS is.


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## MK. (Dec 16, 2012)

I hope Cain wins, just so i don't hear another post fight interview in Portuguese. Seriously how hard is to learn to mumble a few words in a language we all understand.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

Cain will smash Werdum on the ground and against the cage, i don't think he will play around at any kind of distance.


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## ReptilianSlayer (Sep 2, 2013)

HitOrGetHit said:


> Cain's success against JDS was based heavily around takedowns and pushing JDS against the cage. Areas where Werdum is much more dangerous than JDS is.












Cain outstruck JDS everywhere the fight when. Centre of the Octagon, in the clinch, against the cage....

He'll have a much easier time with Werdm too.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

ReptilianSlayer said:


> Cain outstruck JDS everywhere the fight when. Centre of the Octagon, in the clinch, against the cage....
> 
> He'll have a much easier time with Werdm too.


I know. what I am saying is JDS had no answer because he had to worry about the takedown or being clinched constantly because Cain did that a lot. He looks much different in other fights where it wasn't an issue. 

This isn't a knock against Cain. It is all part of MMA. All I'm saying is Werdum is more competent clinched and on the ground than JDS was, so I don't see his striking failing because he is terrified of being clinched.


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## King Daisuke (Mar 25, 2013)

oldfan said:


> Now that cain's pissed off???
> 
> because he wasn't going to try his best to hurt Werdum before??
> 
> If cain really is pissed (I doubt it), it can only help Werdum.


I am trying to build tension, you old fool!


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

So, this ungrateful, stupid moron thinks Werdum is “bad mouthing” and insulting him by calling him an American? **** you cain. Go be a mexican you ****ing idiot. Your father risked everything, worked and sacrificed his entire life so you could be an American. Did Mexico give you an education? Did mexico give you opportunities to follow your dreams? What did mexico do for you? Where would you be today if you really were mexican? Probably hired muscle for a drug gang if you were still alive. Why don't you move to mexico? Why don't you have mexican trainers? America doesn't want you. Your too stupid. Go be mexican.

Ever hear of Machida being insulted to be called Brazillian? No because he isn't a ****ing MORON.



> There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all.”
> “This is just as true of the man who puts “native” before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul


Theodore Roosevelt 100 years ago



> Listen, I've visited Africa, and I've got news for everyone: I'm not an African. The Africans know I'm not an African. I'm an American. This is my country. My people helped to build it and we've been here for centuries. Just call me black, if you want to call me anything.


 Whoopie Golberg

I'll bet if there's ever a problem at the border that moron will be crying "I'm not mexican I'm american!!"


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## Scarecrow (Mar 20, 2008)

This should be a great fight. I'll give the edge to Werdum but either way I'm sure we'll be given a good show.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

To be honest though anything is better than just being full American


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## Warning (Nov 18, 2009)

oldfan said:


> So, this ungrateful, stupid moron thinks Werdum is “bad mouthing” and insulting him by calling him an American? **** you cain. Go be a mexican you ****ing idiot.


Cain can say whatever he want really. Ranting on the internet is problem more idiotic then anything Cain says or does. Also when Cain talks sh*t. He can back up every word.
He is more then a internet warrior. He is a real warrior.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

oldfan said:


> So, this ungrateful, stupid moron thinks Werdum is “bad mouthing” and insulting him by calling him an American? **** you cain. Go be a mexican you ****ing idiot. Your father risked everything, worked and sacrificed his entire life so you could be an American. Did Mexico give you an education? Did mexico give you opportunities to follow your dreams? What did mexico do for you? Where would you be today if you really were mexican? Probably hired muscle for a drug gang if you were still alive. Why don't you move to mexico? Why don't you have mexican trainers? America doesn't want you. Your too stupid. Go be mexican.
> 
> Ever hear of Machida being insulted to be called Brazillian? No because he isn't a ****ing MORON.
> 
> ...


I assume most American's are embarrassed to be American from time to time, I know I am. It must be nice to be able to say you are something else when you want to. That's how I see it anyways. :dunno:


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

oldfan said:


> Your too stupid. Go be mexican.


You're*


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## ReptilianSlayer (Sep 2, 2013)

Joabbuac said:


> You're*












Cain might have been born on American soil, but he has Mexican blood running through his veins. If he wants to identify as Mexican, that's his choice and perfectly ok.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

ReptilianSlayer said:


> Cain might have been born on American soil, but he has Mexican blood running through his veins. If he wants to identify as Mexican, that's his choice and perfectly ok.


sure it's fine to reap all the benefits of being American, live *your*(got it right that time) dream and then piss on the country that made your dream possible. 



> "If you're born in the US, you're American. Joana, my daughter, is American", Werdum said. "She's American, she was born in the US. Lyoto Machida doesn't represent Japan. People know that he is of Japanese descent, but he wasn't born in Japan. He's Brazilian. I don't lie or anything like that, I tell the truth. Cain Velasquez is American."- Werdum


Werdum sounds proud that his daughter is American. he's clearly a lot smarter than that dumbass mexican.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

oldfan said:


> sure it's fine to reap all the benefits of being American, live *your*(got it right that time) dream and then piss on the country that made your dream possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Werdum sounds proud that his daughter is American. he's clearly a lot smarter than that dumbass mexican.


Why exactly should somebody be proud of where they are born? Be proud of randomization? Be proud of complete random chance? What a waste of pride (that goes for being proud to be mexican too).

I'll never understand the "I take pride in the completely random event of where I just so happened to have been born by complete random chance" mentality. However, I don't really care if Cain or anybody else hates where they are born/raised, or loves another country, or identifies with another place. If he wants to identity with somewhere other than America, that is fine, it doesn't matter, identify wherever you wish to as it's all equally pointless.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

M.C said:


> Why exactly should somebody be proud of where they are born? Be proud of happenstance? Be proud of complete random chance? What a waste of pride (that goes for being proud to be mexican too).
> 
> I'll never understand the "I take pride in the completely random event of where I just so happened to have been born by complete random chance" mentality. However, I don't really care if Cain or anybody else hates where they are born/raised, or loves another country, or identifies with another place. If he wants to identity with somewhere other than America, that is fine, it doesn't matter, identity wherever you wish to as it's all equally pointless.


except it wasn't random happenstance was it? his father made it happen through great effort and it completely changed every aspect of his life for the better. you'd think that dumbass mexican would appreciate that.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

oldfan said:


> except it wasn't random happenstance was it? his father made it happen through great effort and it completely changed every aspect of his life for the better. you'd think that dumbass mexican would appreciate that.


Actually yes, it was completely random that he personally was born there at this time. He could have been born 500 years ago, 1000 years ago, born today, tomorrow, could have been born in India, Africa, anywhere. It was completely random that he personally was born in this particular piece of land at this particular time frame.

Being proud of something that he had zero, count it, zero, part in making happen is completely pointless and really silly. You might as well be proud that you have brown hair, or green eyes. Be proud that you are 5'10. Be proud that you have a 10" shoe size. Be proud about your fingerprint design. Being proud of something you have not earned, done, or taken any part in whatsoever is very, very silly. 

As for Cain in particular being proud to be mexican over being an American or whatever, again, I don't care, it's all silly and pointless and actually pretty amusing. Honestly, if there's anything to be annoyed at in this situation, it's the fact that this is the best they can do to create any sort of "hype" for the fight. I'm a big HW division fan and a Cain fan and even a Werdum fan, and this event came out of nowhere. There's no hype for this fight, I haven't seen a single commercial for it and just in genreal it has been very quiet. I had wished it would have been a bigger showing rather than relying on silly stuff like that to build even the tiniest bit of hype for it.


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## Warning (Nov 18, 2009)

I would rather be a Mexican then a stinky, ignorant,pathetic, lame,stupid,good for nothing pice of crap American. So it is easy to understand why Cain chooses to identify as Mexican. The American part is just imbarising.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

oldfan said:


> Ever hear of Machida being insulted to be called Brazillian? No because he isn't a ****ing MORON.


Machida is half-brazilian genetically, Cain is not. His parents didn't intermarry into "standard Americans" yet, they just crossed a border. Different situations. Yeah I know blood isn't supposed to matter, all that's supposed to matter is where across some lines on a map you're born or whatever, but it's rarely that simple when recent cultural ties come in.

I can see it from both viewpoints. I've seen many recent immigrants that practically run around in stars and stripes underwear sporting a texas drawl trying to prove their "American-ness" still be at the receiving end of foreigner jokes and still get the "but where are you from?" type stuff... one of the natural reactions of someone without low self esteem in that case is to distance himself from those that perceive him as alien and identify with the "motherland" he's never really lived in. 

At the same time yeah, there's a reason Cain's parents made the move and he probably wouldn't have had the same level of opportunity there.

Also for all of it's good things, America has seriously gone down the toilet lately in a lot of ways too, so I find it hard to be as gung ho patriotic about it as I would have ten years ago too.


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## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

M.C. and Oldfan.
You both touched this subject of proud to be xxx.

M.C. is right by the random part. You cant be proud of yourself to be born in somewhere. Thats stupid. Thats the point!! He is proud of his FATHER! He made life for him. Not a country of America. His has pride in his family. And they are MEXICAN!

So its logical that he identify himself as Mexican more than American. 

And to Oldfan rant. He does not dissing America in any way shape of form. He is just proud of his father and to have Mexican blood.

One for Oldfan to calm down and stop beeing butthurt about Cain not identify himself as Murican :thumb02:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Atilak said:


> M.C. and Oldfan.
> You both touched this subject of proud to be xxx.
> 
> M.C. is right by the random part. You cant be proud of yourself to be born in somewhere. Thats stupid. Thats the point!! *He is proud of his FATHER! He made life for him*. Not a country of America. His has pride in his family. And they are MEXICAN!
> ...


 Butthurt... that term always makes me smile because it says a lot more about the person using it than the one it's directed at. For all the geniuses that don't get it, it doesn't bother me in the least that cain is proud of his mexican heritage. But that's not what he's said. He said he was insulted to be called American. What kind of person lives in a country that he would be insulted to be associated with?? the kind who's too stupid or lazy to leave or the kind who's just being dishonest. (M.C. you told me years ago that you would leave America if you could but your still here.how is it that millions of penniless mexicans can do what you can't?)

There's nothing wrong with pride in your heritage unless you're white. And why is that?
The entire history of the human race has been written in war, conquest, brutality, domination and slavery. It's been the same ugly story in every corner of the world among every different breed of the ONE human race. But only Caucasians of European descent are expected to be ashamed of it. Why? Because all the other breeds are still butthurt (yeah I know, I know  ) that they were better at it.

I hope the more intelligent and honest man wins 
tonight. 

wooohooo brown pride


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

Its about culture and its collective achievements, your family history, thats why people are proud of where they are from. I don't see why the would be so hard to understand. Not only that but if feels good to be proud of where your from, and follow the exploits of your countrymen on the international stage. It bring a lot of joy to a lot of dull lives!


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

oldfan said:


> Butthurt... that term always makes me smile because it says a lot more about the person using it than the one it's directed at. For all the geniuses that don't get it, it doesn't bother me in the least that cain is proud of his mexican heritage. But that's not what he's said. He said he was insulted to be called American. What kind of person lives in a country that he would be insulted to be associated with?? the kind who's too stupid or lazy to leave or the kind who's just being dishonest. (M.C. you told me years ago that you would leave America if you could but your still here.how is it that millions of penniless mexicans can do what you can't?)
> 
> There's nothing wrong with pride in your heritage unless you're white. And why is that?
> The entire history of the human race has been written in war, conquest, brutality, domination and slavery. It's been the same ugly story in every corner of the world among every different breed of the ONE human race. But only Caucasians of European descent are expected to be ashamed of it. Why? Because all the other breeds are still butthurt (yeah I know, I know  ) that they were better at it.
> ...


America does a lot wrong and very little right these days. Forgetting the mexican/pride/whatever thing for a moment, there is nothing wrong with seeing all the problems the country you are in has and speaking publicly about how idiotic they are, how bad the country is turning, and the awful direction it is going. And as for me moving, over the years I've realized it doesn't matter where you move, you will have to deal with nonsense wherever you are. America: The Police State will have to do for now.

Now, as for Cain being "insulted" to be called American, again, who cares? It's a piece of land. If it's rational in your mind (or other peoples) to be "proud" of a piece of land you are on or you are from, then you can most certainly hate it or be insulted by it as well. As for why Cain doesn't move, who knows/who cares. Probably some of the same reasons a lot of people who hate the way this country is now or the way it is going don't move (financial reasons or others preventing it such as family/government, laziness, simply don't care enough), or maybe he has his own personal reason.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

Can't believe this thread has sunk to this level.

Place of birth = country of origin = nationality.

I live in Wales but I was not born there so I am not Welsh, if I have a kid in Wales the kid will be Welsh, doesn't matter what I am.

I know this rule is not always biologically correct, for example, there are a lot of British people who do not look British and have no British family history, but it is the rule in deciding one's nationality.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

SM33 said:


> Can't believe this thread has sunk to this level.
> 
> Place of birth = country of origin = nationality.
> 
> ...


You don't even seem to know the laws of your own country. A child from non-British parents born in Britain is not automatically given British citizenship, even if they've been there for a decade without being "settled" i.e. get an indefinite leave to remain, the UK equivalent of the US Green card, or even if they became settled one day after the child was born. 

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/british-citizenship



> If you were born in the UK on or after 1 January 1983
> You don’t automatically get British citizenship if you were born in the UK.
> 
> If you were born on or after 1 January 1983, you’ll be a British citizen if your mother or father was either:
> ...


Default citizenship by birth is the American model, and that of some other countries like Australia, NZ etc. which are sparsely populated.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Ok back on track. If you all want to debate this further you can make a separate thread in the lounge. This is the official fight thread.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

I'm just hoping for a good fight in general. I believe Cain beats him, but it's MMA so anything can happen. At the end of the day though I want the same thing I want in all fights, just a good fight that isn't a bore fest, regardless who wins.


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## Warning (Nov 18, 2009)

M.C said:


> but it's MMA so anything can happen.


 That is advantage I can think of that Werdum has in this fight.


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## jaycalgary (Jun 19, 2008)

Finally going to get to see an upset.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

I hope this fight redeems the card. There was only 1 good fight on the card so far in my opinion, so I hope this one entertaining.


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## TheAuger (Jun 30, 2011)

Cain actually made it into the octagon without getting injured...


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Was it a headbutt that caused the cut on Cain?


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)




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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

This altitude is no joke. Werdum has been there for months training? Talk about a smart guy.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

The 2 years off is showing. The last time Cain was out this long was against the first time with JDS and he admitted that the time off cuased him issues and he couldn't pressure JDS how he wanted.

It's the second round and he can barely stand. He was gassed before the first round even ended, Werdum did little to not damage in the first and when that ended Cain was already slowing. Sad.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

hahahahaha stupid mexican should have trained in mexico


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

Cain looks terrible


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## TheAuger (Jun 30, 2011)

19-19 after 2 rounds.

Cain is in trouble...


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

It's 100% the altitude, if you've never felt the effects while exhausted its impossible to deal with, because Cain's never been like this.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Well thats some serious shit right there. JDS bout to get his belt back.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

box said:


> It's 100% the altitude, if you've never felt the effects while exhausted its impossible to deal with, because Cain's never been like this.


Cain was out for 2 years. He looked like this against JDS the first time. Cain has the best gas tank in the division, certainly far more than Werdum. Werdum didn't have this gas problem when fighting at this altitude.

Cain was gassing before the first round ended, it's the same thing that happened the last time he was out this long, gassed and not fighting how he normally does, and he lost that time too.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

Easy as that!!


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## TheAuger (Jun 30, 2011)

Cain got desperate & dove right into the guillotine.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

SM33 said:


> I think Werdum is a tough fight for Cain, and the timing of this fight is hugely in his favor.
> 
> This will be the first time we see Cain tire before his opponent does.





ReptilianSlayer said:


> lol. I don't think so.


had a good laugh at him did you?:laugh:


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

Werdum Time!


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

Really a dumb move. Practically gift wrapped the belt and handed it to Werdum.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

stupid mexican fought stupid


glad he's not murican:laugh:


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

M.C said:


> Cain was out for 2 years. He looked like this against JDS the first time. Cain has the best gas tank in the division, certainly far more than Werdum. Werdum didn't have this gas problem when fighting at this altitude.


Werdum lived in Mexico for this fight for months.

The first fight with JDS was a 1st round knockout, not a grind like this ended up.


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## Pillowhands (Mar 10, 2012)

HW in high altitude...both looked gassed after 3 minutes
Cain had to change strategy, proved Cain had nothing for Werdum both standing and on the ground.
I guess JDS,Stipe and Arlovski are satisfied with this. All three of them has a chance to beat Werdum.


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## Jesy Blue (May 8, 2009)

Only submissions tonight we're by guillotine... interesting.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Jesy Blue said:


> Only submissions tonight we're by guillotine... interesting.


They are known for beheading people in mexico, paying homage? :confused05:


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Fuking LOVE it.

But at the same time, I'm going to give Cain the excuse. I feel it's kind of bullshit that this fight took place at altitude. Cain was in trouble in the first round. That's not to say Fabricio wasn't, but as he told us all, he was ready for it. Fabricio might be one of the toughest dudes around. He can fight tired, like Mark Hunt, and he KOed Mark Hunt whilst taking huge punches from him. He also managed to take Cain's best punches early and still not seem hurt at all, before altitude took effect.

I'd like to see a rematch to be fair, but amazing win for Fabricio. I feel Cain's team got this sooooooo wrong, like Joe Rogan. Cain's game was ALWAYS grappling. Once or twice, Werdum was on his back and Cain was like "I'm not grappling with a jiu jitsu guy". Cain is better than Werdum on the ground imo. I said before, Cain was overrated on the feet and Werdum was underrated. Cain made a HUGE mistake and by god did Werdum wreck him for it. Awesome that he got the finish too. He's a cool guy and has earned this.


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## amoosenamedhank (Sep 2, 2009)

Oh how sweet that was... I've been waiting a long time to see this moment. Congrats to Werdum... And I hope he can follow it up again... Assuming Cain can make it to the cage again within the next two years


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## TheAuger (Jun 30, 2011)

I have to say, I prefer MMA when there aren't many dominant longtime champions. For me, it makes it more exiting to see new champions at some point rather than stagnation at the top when a champion is very dominant. It opens up a division for more interesting matchups.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

box said:


> Werdum lived in Mexico for this fight for months.
> 
> The first fight with JDS was a 1st round knockout, not a grind like this ended up.


Yes, but pretty much everybody (including Cain) agreed that his time out caused him to be off his timing, off his game, and he wasn't pressuring JDS like he wanted and should have. He wasn't moving forward, wasn't implementing his game, and JDS caught him because of it. He came back, won a fight, then destroyed JDS twice.

I see the same happening assuming he doesn't get injured. He gets another fight, dominates, then beats up Werdum. He beat Werdum in the first round, had him up against the cage battering him as usual. He gassed and then Werdum took advantage of it. 

Don't get me wrong, fighting there didn't help him any, but are you telling me everybody on this card could fight for full 3 rounds without gassing yet Cain couldn't? A guy known for his extreme cardio? Why didn't everybody else gas? 

The 2 years off affected him far more than anything else and he will be back, get the rust/cardio back just like he did against JDS, and get his belt back... assuming he doens't get injured again. Actually, if he gets injured again he just needs to retire.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

M.C said:


> Yes, but pretty much everybody (including Cain) agreed that his time out caused him to be off his timing, off his game, and he wasn't pressuring JDS like he wanted and should have. He wasn't moving forward, wasn't implementing his game, and JDS caught him because of it. He came back, won a fight, then destroyed JDS twice.
> 
> I see the same happening assuming he doesn't get injured. He gets another fight, dominates, then beats up Werdum. He beat Werdum in the first round, had him up against the cage battering him as usual. He gassed and then Werdum took advantage of it.
> 
> ...


Werdum is a better striker than Cain. That was the main thing. Cain thought Werdum was a sub guy only and avoided the ground, despite being a grappler himself. Terrible gameplan, amazing result.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Werdum is a better striker than Cain. That was the main thing. Cain thought Werdum was a sub guy only and avoided the ground, despite being a grappler himself. Terrible gameplan, amazing result.


Is that why Cain landed more shots in the first round, had him up against the cage and Werdum was eating shots? Werdum started landing solid after Cain was already gassed, that's the entire point. 

Imagine if Cain kept going like he did in the first 3-4 minutes of the first round. Werdum would have been finished, he was eating shots, being controlled, got taken down, etc. He lost the first round clear as day, it wasn't until Cain gassed that Werdum was doing anything.


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## ReptilianSlayer (Sep 2, 2013)

Mad props to Werdum, that was an outstanding performance.

I think Dana White is right; AKA really are in the stone ages.

Cain's repeated heavy sparring at the gym resulting in injuries has maybe cost him an entire career of potential goatness.

If I were him, I would leave AKA.

Awful coaching from this guys all round.

A)Not being wise enough to prepare in Mexico at that altitude for more than two weeks. They should have spent AT LEAST a month there to adjust.

B)Corner advice - "Cain, you need to go for the takedown!"

Cain being the good student he is, jumps directly into a double leg and gets subbed, because of the lousy advice from his coaches.

His advice should have been to stick to the first round gameplan. Grind him against the cage, dirty box - that's where he had most of his success.

Cain should dump AKA unless he wants to stay injured for another two years with dumb sparring practise. Their training guarantees short term success but has HEAVY long term consequences.

GG Werdum, well played. Perfect preparation and execution.


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## amoosenamedhank (Sep 2, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Werdum is a better striker than Cain. That was the main thing. Cain thought Werdum was a sub guy only and avoided the ground, despite being a grappler himself. Terrible gameplan, amazing result.


This... Cain has always had his wrestling to fall back on or even more importantly the threat of his wrestling has made his striking seem more efficient.

Finally he ran into someone who welcomed his ground game and this was the outcome.

Just like Cain is JDS kryptonite... I think Werdum could very well be Cain's 

That and I think Cain bought too much into his own cardio hype. Knowing Werdum was out there months in advance, he still only shows up a few weeks before...


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Werdum is a better striker and when he hurt Cain, Cain didn't feel like he could go to his wrestling to protect himself because he was worried about Werdum's ground game. He tried the clinch on the fence and blast like he did to JDS but it didn't work because Werdum has a clinch game and landed shots back. Cain took some serious punishment from the outset. Werdum landed a flush right hand with his first strike that stung Cain. Cain's time off might be what his camp says is the reason for this loss and it might have had a hand in it but the reality is that just push forward and pray for a clinch shit didn't work against Werdum and it probably never will. Werdum was stiff arming Cain off and handing out punishment, he wore Cain down just as much as the altitude.


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## ReptilianSlayer (Sep 2, 2013)

This constant flip-flopping of HW's also just reaffirms how damn good and special Fedor was.

Truly one of a kind to go undefeated in 10 years.

Also, shows how wise McGregor is, training out in Vegas months before the fight to adjust to the climate.

Werdum is the king of MMA trolls too. If anyone was going to dethrone Cain, I'm glad it was him. What a character.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

ReptilianSlayer said:


> This constant flip-flopping of HW's also just reaffirms how damn good and special Fedor was.
> 
> Truly one of a kind to go undefeated in 10 years.
> 
> ...


I said that watching the fight. Werdum is easily the biggest troll in MMA.


----------



## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Life B Ez said:


> Werdum is a better striker and when he hurt Cain, Cain didn't feel like he could go to his wrestling to protect himself because he was worried about Werdum's ground game. He tried the clinch on the fence and blast like he did to JDS but it didn't work because Werdum has a clinch game and landed shots back. Cain took some serious punishment from the outset. Werdum landed a flush right hand with his first strike that stung Cain. Cain's time off might be what his camp says is the reason for this loss and it might have had a hand in it but the reality is that just push forward and pray for a clinch shit didn't work against Werdum and it probably never will. Werdum was stiff arming Cain off and handing out punishment, he wore Cain down just as much as the altitude.


Exactly this. :thumbsup:


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## Jumanji (Mar 30, 2011)

ReptilianSlayer said:


> Mad props to Werdum, that was an outstanding performance.
> 
> I think Dana White is right; AKA really are in the stone ages.
> 
> ...


Javier Mendez was actually begging Cain to go to Mexico a lot sooner, but Cain is the one who said no. He said it was hard for him to get Cain there two weeks before the fight, let alone more than that.

But i agree on the second part, telling a dazed and wobbly guy to shoot for a double against a world class BJJ specialist isn't really smart.


----------



## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

Arlovski Vs Werdum book it


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Stuff your excuses into a sack friends. Werdum is the undisputed champ!


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

I think they should continue having fights at high altitude, but fighters need to wisen up and hold their training camp there like Werdum did, that paid off ten fold tonight. Werdum even rubbed it in Cain's face during the fight sadly.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

So impressed with Werdum right now. If someone had told me that Cain was going to gas, and that Werdum was going to out box Cain, I would have called you crazy. I expected Werdum to be much more focused on getting the fight to the mat, as I bet Cain did as well. Great boxing from Werdum, even if he did look stiff.




M.C said:


> Is that why Cain landed more shots in the first round, had him up against the cage and Werdum was eating shots? Werdum started landing solid after Cain was already gassed, that's the entire point.
> 
> Imagine if Cain kept going like he did in the first 3-4 minutes of the first round. Werdum would have been finished, he was eating shots, being controlled, got taken down, etc. He lost the first round clear as day, it wasn't until Cain gassed that Werdum was doing anything.


Even in the first round I was saying how impressed I was with Werdum's ability to nullify Cain's dirty boxing with his clinch. Werdum played it smart right from the beginning by messing with Cain's ability to get a rhythm going. Cain definitely looked sharp at first, but he got frustrated fast when Werdum clinched and controlled.


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## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

Good job by Werdum. He ate Cains punches like a candies. On the other hand Cain was hurting from Werdums punches.

Legit awesome performance. I give props to all who called that 

JDS smells his change now :thumbsup:


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

HitOrGetHit said:


> Stuff your excuses into a sack friends. Werdum is the undisputed champ!


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Being gassed is part of the game, if not most of the game at this level. Lots of fighters have lost due to gassing, I don't know why Cain gets a pass. It's not like Werdum got to exist in a different atmosphere than Cain during the fight. Werdum played it smarter, he got conditioned to the altitude. It's not like Cain was denied that option, which made Werdum the more prepared and better fighter "that night," which is all that matters in championship fights.


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## Ryankmfdm (Sep 24, 2010)

Sooo stoked about this. Not only because it makes the division a little more interesting, but also 'cause I have to agree with *oldfan*. Cain's an awesome fighter, no doubt about it, and seems like a respectable guy for the most part, but his whole "Brown pride" shtick is _really_ irritating.


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## Andrus (Oct 18, 2011)

F Yeah Fabricio! Awesome fight. Werdum looked outstanding. And that guilliotine was slick. So stoked that he won


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Great to see Werdum's dedication paying off. Destroyed the face of the champion than took his neck home. Congrats to the new Champion.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Fantastic stuff by Werdum, I had a feeling he'd make it tough style wise but man this was something else. Smarter camp, smarter fighter, and I'm pumped for him as champ, well deserved. 

His bigger stylistic threat is going to be JDS though, unlike Cain the guy is better on the feet and has too good TDD to be pulled down by Werdum. I'd like to see him keep the belt after that one but a dangerous one that.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Fantastic stuff by Werdum, I had a feeling he could make it tough style wise and force a sub opening eventually, but man this was something else. Smarter camp, smarter fighter, and I'm pumped for him as champ, well deserved. 

His bigger stylistic threat is going to be JDS though, unlike Cain the guy is better on the feet and has too good TDD to be pulled down by Werdum. I'd like to see him keep the belt after that one but a dangerous one that.


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## MK. (Dec 16, 2012)

AWESOME! Glad Werdum won, always nice to see the underdog get the belt. Seems like a great guy also:thumb02:


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

The one thing I was worried about was pretty much what happened. We already saw it with Fedor. Werdum is a crafty one although he was doing damn well on the feet. The long lay off and altitude must have effected Cain, cuz he did not look right after the 1st round and even during his walk in. He was already breathing hard + apprehensive. 

The whole division is up in the air again.

Everyone can literally beat one another.

Werdum > Cain > JDS > Stipe > Arlovski > The Reem

How weird is that. I foresee a round robin of champions.

I wouldn't mind seeing Arlovksi reclaim gold then retire as he already beat Werdum right before he left to Affliction.

I feel real bad for whoever faces Cain in a rebound fight.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

That's one of the worst beatings I've ever seen. Thought it was over after the second, honestly surprised they didn't call it after that round. 

Cain was dead on his feet after the second willing his way through it but still, he was 100% done halfway through the second. Cain was eating power shots over and over, shots that would knock out 99.9% of the population Cain is eating dozens of. Yeah Cain was fighting back but similar to how Junior was brutalized in the rematch Cain didn't really have much to give. I've never seen someone just eat knees like that, Cain is tough but damn that was brutal. He's too tough for his own good, it was like a brainstem just going on instinct after the second knee.


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## ReptilianSlayer (Sep 2, 2013)

rabakill said:


> That's one of the worst beatings I've ever seen. Thought it was over after the second, honestly surprised they didn't call it after that round.
> 
> Cain was dead on his feet after the second willing his way through it but still, he was 100% done halfway through the second. Cain was eating power shots over and over, shots that would knock out 99.9% of the population Cain is eating dozens of. Yeah Cain was fighting back but similar to how Junior was brutalized in the rematch Cain didn't really have much to give. I've never seen someone just eat knees like that, Cain is tough but damn that was brutal. He's too tough for his own good, it was like a brainstem just going on instinct after the second knee.


That's why they call him the terminator. I was absolutely amazed how Cain kept trucking forward throwing punches and kicks whilst eating HEAVY, stiff shots by Werdum. He just wouldn't go down.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

So much for that "Mexican" fighting style. Nice to see him get his racist ass beat.


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## arkanoydz (Mar 15, 2010)

wow. KO's Hunt for the interim and submits Cain for the undisputed title. 
Must admit it took me a while to give Fabricio the credit he deserves. I guess in my mind somehow subconsciously, even as his win streak kept getting longer, seeing JDS's devastating uppercut KO of Werdum played over and over as one of the most shown highlight reel KO's never helped.

I'm one of those who always thought Fedor made a mistake and gave the fight away, but I do remember being impressed with Werdum's stand-up against Overeem [actually got a feeling he could've won if he stopped butt-scooting for the entire fight and kept it standing]. 

Very impressed; great execution of a great strategy on all fronts [the whole 'Cain isn't Mexican' mind game did contribute its bit. 
I knew Fabricio would've been tough, but I was convinced that Cain's top control and gnp would've been too much even for him.

The altitude and layoff were significant factors but they could've been outweighed by smarter strategy, imo. Would love to see a rematch.

As for the whole American/Mexican thing, I don't think Cain meant he's bothered by being called American - he was bothered by a *Brazilian* insinuating a *lack of Mexican* in Cain, in Spanish, in Mexico. It was a planned thing from Werdum and Cain took the bait. 

Anyway, what a fight


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## mo25 (Feb 7, 2011)

No_Mercy said:


> The one thing I was worried about was pretty much what happened. We already saw it with Fedor. Werdum is a crafty one although he was doing damn well on the feet. The long lay off and altitude must have effected Cain, cuz he did not look right after the 1st round and even during his walk in. He was already breathing hard + apprehensive.
> 
> The whole division is up in the air again.
> 
> ...


Except Reem won a UD against Werdum. If they give the next shot to JDS he will most likely KO Werdum (for the 2nd time in a row) due to his speed advantage.

I was honestly in shock at Cain's performance today. The guy has a been a cardio machine for as long as I've seen.

This also really sucks cause I doubt we'll see a super fight between Cain and Jones now.


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## The Best Around (Oct 18, 2011)

I just saw the sub just now. That was a great finish.

Now maybe we can actually get some heavyweight title fights.

Cain has to be one of Dana's least favorite fighters ever. He's held the division hostage for the majority of the last 4-5 years, and he was the one who ended Lesnar's title reign.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Aaaahhhhhhhhhh that might have been the most satisfying fight I've watched in the UFC. I've seen Karma deliver a bitch slap before but she perfected her technique on dumbo the mexican. If he had been smart enough to train in mexico he would have still lost to the better man but he might have looked less stupid doing it.

I was LMAO at the post fight interviews. Even Werdum's Spanish is better than dumbo's.


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## MK. (Dec 16, 2012)

Just read to this thread, lol at people giving Cain the first round :confused03:

He had nothing for Werdum, he pressed him against the cage for 2 minutes landed some soft shots then got battered for the rest of the round.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

MK. said:


> Just read to this thread, lol at people giving Cain the first round :confused03:
> 
> He had nothing for Werdum, he pressed him against the cage for 2 minutes landed some soft shots then got battered for the rest of the round.


dumbo spent a lot of that time against the fence struggling to get out of Werdum's plumb.


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

So happy that Werdum won the belt. He deserved it after all of his improvement.

Arlovski vs. Werdum 2? The first fight was awful, but they both are in a better place now and can redeem themselves.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

the goatherd?


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## Jesy Blue (May 8, 2009)

Jumanji said:


> Javier Mendez was actually begging Cain to go to Mexico a lot sooner, but Cain is the one who said no. He said it was hard for him to get Cain there two weeks before the fight, let alone more than that.


why? that's the point. this is why tito ortiz always trained on Bear Mountain, which as i look up is 1000 feet higher above sea level than mexico city. stupid move on cain's mentality; there had better be a reason he's just not willing to tell us.



Atilak said:


> JDS smells his change now


i like cain, i don't like jds... but i loathe werdum; i guess the enemy of my enemy is acceptable. GO JDS!
(dude has not fought since december? what's up with that?)


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## EVERLOST (May 28, 2007)

Im ecstatic for the outcome. The moment Werdums music started and it was the Last of The Mohicans theme came on I looked at my buddies and said "Hes got this". The middle of RD2 to 3 they gave Cain water and he was so tired he put the water to his mouth, partially dropped it and dumped it all over his shoulder. He was dead. I hadnt laughed that hard in a long time. I have hated Cain forever and this was excellent.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

So Cain cannot handle the altitude in his "own country" What a joke. Glad Werdum won, always liked him... wonder if this is the first time a formally cut fighter has won the title.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Cain, who possessed the best cardio on the HW division gassed faster then Mark Hunt, who possess one of the worse cardios and was called short noticed to fight Werdum at altitude plus time difference addaptation from the other side of the world to Mexico.

It wasn't me, I will be just bumping the especulation, but didn't some fighter said or tweeted Cain would look different as soon the new tests would be enforced? :confused02:


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## BrianRClover (Jan 4, 2008)

Well that was an interesting fight for me to watch, and it ended in what will all most certainly be the first and last time I ever cheer for Werdum! Easily my two least favorite HWs...

I will admit I'm happy now to see the HW division get a chance to not be held up by a boring injury plagued fighter. Yes Cain is boring... attack if you will, it's my opinion.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Found it. It was Ben Rothwell. He must be having that evil laugh and saying: "I knew it."


> Ben Rothwell: I doubt Cain Velasquez fights the same way after UFC drug testing kicks in


http://www.mmamania.com/2015/6/8/87...-same-way-after-ufc-drug-testing-kicks-in-mma


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Sportsman 2.0 said:


> It wasn't me, I will be just bumping the especulation, but didn't some fighter said or tweeted Cain would look different as soon the new tests would be enforced? :confused02:


He definitely was outclassed and hopefully not because of roids :confused05:. I chalked it up to conditioning and lack of altitude training, but rewatching the fight, even while Cain was pressing forward in the first he was getting patched up and clinched for it, and it spiraled from there.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

Sportsman 2.0 said:


> Found it. It was Ben Rothwell. He must be having that evil laugh and saying: "I knew it."
> 
> http://www.mmamania.com/2015/6/8/87...-same-way-after-ufc-drug-testing-kicks-in-mma


Everyone was on the roids!


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Ben does look like a beast these days btw.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Got a chance to watch the fight. I disagree with people saying if Cain was the same in rd.1 he would have dominated. Sure Cain was landing more volume but he was eating bigger shots than he was giving out a lot of the time. He was scared to stay on the ground with Werdum and his clinch game was being neutralized for the most part. He was cut in round 1 and Werdum was in there every second.

Werdum was just the better fighter.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Great fight by Werdum, he owned Cain everywhere it went.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Biggest thing in this fight wasn't the altitude, it was Werdum taking the thai plumb in close so Cain couldn't control where he usually does. That was huge.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Biggest thing in this fight wasn't the altitude, it was Werdum taking the thai plumb in close so Cain couldn't control where he usually does. That was huge.


That's what I was saying earlier. It totally ruined Cain's rhythm and his ability to dirty box.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Biggest thing in this fight wasn't the altitude, it was Werdum taking the thai plumb in close so Cain couldn't control where he usually does. That was huge.


That coupled with the fact that it really seemed like Cain wanted nothing to do with Werdum's ground game. It limited him to his striking which as I said earlier, has been a tad overblown. He is a volume striker but isn't the striking technician some people thought.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

HitOrGetHit said:


> That coupled with the fact that it really seemed like Cain wanted nothing to do with Werdum's ground game. It limited him to his striking which as I said earlier, has been a tad overblown. He is a volume striker but isn't the striking technician some people thought.


Tbh I thought it was terrible to avoid the ground. My opinion was like most people's, Cain was too dangerous with his GnP and has too much control for Werdum. But apparently Cain didn't have the same confidence.

Seems like confidence was huge here. Cain got a takedown and Werdum was like "Nice, come play" and Cain didn't want it. Then on the feet Werdum's like "Oh we can do it here too".

I find it funny that a few people out there are discrediting the result because Cain couldn't deal with the altitude. Cain's number one factor is outlasting opponents in cardio, so why's it a big thing that Cain got outlasted for once?


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Tbh I thought it was terrible to avoid the ground. My opinion was like most people's, Cain was too dangerous with his GnP and has too much control for Werdum. But apparently Cain didn't have the same confidence.
> 
> Seems like confidence was huge here. Cain got a takedown and Werdum was like "Nice, come play" and Cain didn't want it. Then on the feet Werdum's like "Oh we can do it here too".
> 
> I find it funny that a few people out there are discrediting the result because Cain couldn't deal with the altitude. Cain's number one factor is outlasting opponents in cardio, so why's it a big thing that Cain got outlasted for once?


I find it funny too because we don't even know for sure if it was the altitude or just getting punched in the face. Werdum was landing big, clean strikes. We have seen many fighters with great cardio look gassed after eating too many shots when altitude was no factor at all. I'm not saying it wasn't a factor, just that it is easy to assume it when Rogan wouldn't shut up about it. I certainly kept thinking it while watching.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Ape City said:


> I find it funny too because we don't even know for sure if it was the altitude or just getting punched in the face. Werdum was landing big, clean strikes. We have seen many fighters with great cardio look gassed after eating too many shots when altitude was no factor at all. I'm not saying it wasn't a factor, just that it is easy to assume it when Rogan wouldn't shut up about it. I certainly kept thinking it while watching.


I'd say a big part was the altitude because even Werdum looked wrecked after about 3 minutes. Werdum seems to have picked something up from Mark Hunt though. If you can fight tired at heavyweight, you have a HUGE advantage. Werdum was wrecked and still was throwing crisp techniques and getting his guard up.

I was surprised Werdum as THAT confident on the feet though. Cain charged him straight away and Werdum traded in the pocket with him. Fabricio might still be able to get KOed but that dude has an incredible chin to avoid getting rocked.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

Werdum has been confident on his feet for a while now, look at the Browne fight. Travis is clumsy but he's super dangerous, he's big, powerful, and can move quick when he wants to. Werdum took the piss out of him striking. He was pretty fearless against Reem when he wasn't pulling guard too.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

He just isn't defensively solid. Browne was open to land an overhand right the entire time, and Hunt DID land the overhand right. He's just got the stones and chin to be able to deal with it, which is crazy because no one expected anything like that a while ago.

He did a good job of getting back to his feet when Cain took him down here too. Not something too common at HW.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

Werdum slips a lot of strikes, and he's killing the power of those strikes with a deceptively high output of his own. I think he plays possum a lot too, he's having fun. No one wants to roll with him, they think no problem we'll out-strike him, but he's a game striker under Cordeiro, and that is not to be underestimated.

Cordeiro creates monsters, always has, but his fighting style requires great discipline and fitness to be consistently effective. Werdum put the work in and it has payed dividends, same for RDA.

Shogun seems to be on the Cordeiro boat again but he'll have to have the same determination and enjoyment for training as the others to see any success. His techniques are Cordeiro to the core but his mentality and physicality need whipping into shape. If Raphael can turn him into a Champ reborn he'll have God status as a coach.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> He just isn't defensively solid. Browne was open to land an overhand right the entire time, and Hunt DID land the overhand right. He's just got the stones and chin to be able to deal with it, which is crazy because no one expected anything like that a while ago.
> 
> He did a good job of getting back to his feet when Cain took him down here too. Not something too common at HW.


Makes it a lot easier to get back up when you are so dangerous off your back. 

Standing up against Cain is not all that uncommon though, Kongo got up multiple times, Rothwell got up multiple times, Brock got up about twice in there 1 round fight, JDS got up loads of times. 

In fact, the only UFC guy to not get up is Bigfoot. Cain has never been about just holding guys down, he almost seems to let them back up at times just to dump them on the floor again.



SM33 said:


> Cordeiro creates monsters, always has.


He seems to rid any sense of fear from his fighters, and gives them incredible confidence. I think this is more valuable than someone just teaching you perfect technique. Striking technique is far less important than timing, confidence, fitness and heart.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Joabbuac said:


> Makes it a lot easier to get back up when you are so dangerous off your back.
> 
> Standing up against Cain is not all that uncommon though, Kongo got up multiple times, Rothwell got up multiple times, Brock got up about twice in there 1 round fight, JDS got up loads of times.
> 
> ...


Yeah but as I seem to mention in every Cain thread haha, Cain doesn't usually to shoot in and keep you in the middle of the ring. Like you said, he wants to dump you back down, usually against the cage. When he changed his strategy to normal ground game, Werdum negated it quickly.


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## gwest40 (Jul 31, 2011)

Rusty said:


> So much for that "Mexican" fighting style. Nice to see him get his *racist* ass beat.


He's racist, huh. How so? When has Velasquez said anything derogatory towards other races? Since when does being proud of your ethnic background make you a racist? Are you going to complain about it being how Mexicans and other non-whites can be proud of their heritage, but white people can't? White "pride" and Mexican pride are not the same thing. You are the one who is probably racist and that "Mexican" may have lost to Werdum, but he can still kick your a$$.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

gwest40 said:


> He's racist, huh. How so? When has Velasquez said anything derogatory towards other races? Since when does being proud of your ethnic background make you a racist? Are you going to complain about it being how Mexicans and other non-whites can be proud of their heritage, but white people can't? White "pride" and Mexican pride are not the same thing. You are the one who is probably racist and that "Mexican" may have lost to Werdum, but he can still kick your a$$.


lol telling a forum poster that Cain Velasquez can kick there ass.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> lol telling a forum poster that Cain Velasquez can kick there ass.


Their*


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

gwest40 said:


> He's racist, huh. How so? When has Velasquez said anything derogatory towards other races? Since when does being proud of your ethnic background make you a racist? Are you going to complain about it being how Mexicans and other non-whites can be proud of their heritage, but white people can't? White "pride" and Mexican pride are not the same thing. You are the one who is probably racist and that "Mexican" may have lost to Werdum, but he can still kick your a$$.


White Pride > Brown Pride.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

This is the same guy everyone was giving me shit about when I said Jones would have destroyed him?

Jones would have murdered him, its too bad we didn't get to see it.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

slapshot said:


> This is the same guy everyone was giving me shit about when I said Jones would have destroyed him?
> 
> Jones would have murdered him, its too bad we didn't get to see it.


Im not sure this fight is very telling about what would happen against Jones. Jones is wildly different than Werdum in every way. Cain's gameplan would more than likely be very very different.

Not saying Cain wins or loses, but this is a weird fight to use to guage how a fight with JBJ would go.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> I'd say a big part was the altitude because even Werdum looked wrecked after about 3 minutes. Werdum seems to have picked something up from Mark Hunt though. If you can fight tired at heavyweight, you have a HUGE advantage. Werdum was wrecked and still was throwing crisp techniques and getting his guard up.
> 
> I was surprised Werdum as THAT confident on the feet though. Cain charged him straight away and Werdum traded in the pocket with him. Fabricio might still be able to get KOed but that dude has an incredible chin to avoid getting rocked.


he has fantastic head movement and angles, maximizes his energy efficiency. He throws jabs and straight punches at weird little angles that are unpredictable, his technique was still crisp because he was only putting a small fraction of his energy into each shot but he was utilizing angles that made them efficient. Little punches that slip right through the guard whereas Cain just charges forward like Cormier not really trying to play the angles as much.

Werdum really was the perfect guy to take on Cain, great skillset to counter the smothery wrestler.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

HitOrGetHit said:


> Im not sure this fight is very telling about what would happen against Jones. Jones is wildly different than Werdum in every way. Cain's gameplan would more than likely be very very different.
> 
> Not saying Cain wins or loses, but this is a weird fight to use to guage how a fight with JBJ would go.


Well let me point out some things that are not different. 

Cain had trouble with werdum's reach and he'd have even more trouble with Jones's. 

He wouldn't be able to take Jones down either, I pointed that out as well and got scoffed at for it. 

Cain's game plan really doesn't change, he wants to put you on the fence and drag you down. That's his game plan for every fight IMO. 

Im not saying he sucks but I am saying he's overrated as a HW. 

Everything I thought was in question had a bad answer for Cain, they should make a cruiser weight division right now, this second and give the title to Cain.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

If Jon Jones was fighting Cain instead of Werdum, Jones would have destroyed him. Heavyweights are always a bit slower and more sluggish than other weights. To be fair those guys were probably way over 40lbs heavier than most LHWs come fight night. 

Jones is a fast enough guy. Not lightning notably fast but with everything he's much faster than Werdum. 

While Werdum would beat Jones in a Jiu Jitsu match easily, just having the speed to move around at a weight lower would mean Jones would likely get out quite easily. Based on Jones' limbs to, if he ever got taken down and put in guard (has that ever really happened) he might be a real submission threat too. Jones is a beast in the clinch, didn't get taken down really by Cormier besides once or twice at the end, and if we saw the Cain in there against Jones, Jon would probably smash him up with elbows and knees as well in close.

Jones is better than Werdum everywhere in striking, maybe except with power, so Cain would have taken twice as may shots with none of the power, likely seeing Cain get absolutely WRECKED later in the fight.


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

I actually feel like Cain looked like shit in this fight. I bet if he can return to his usual form, then he will dominate his way back to the top. The layoff and the altitude was the only reason Werdum won IMO. Cain relies heavily on cardio to pressure fighters and this time he looked gassed after half of the first round. Not saying anything about the win, it was legit & it's Cains fault and noone else that he ddidn't come in shape. I just feel like technically, Cain is the better fighter of the two & I bet he will win a rematch if he can stay injury free.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Biggest thing in this fight wasn't the altitude, it was Werdum taking the thai plumb in close so Cain couldn't control where he usually does. That was huge.


You're exactly right Clyde. it was HUGE. it's nice to know some of my forum friends actually recognize what they see. I'd say that knees in the clinch like that perfectly placed one at 2:18 of the 1st did more to cain's cardio than the altitude.

Speaking of the altitude...surely real mma aficionados realize that We aren't talking about Kimbo or some back yard brawler.this man was The heavy weight CHAMPION of the World. some level of professional intelligence is expected. Saying cain only lost because he gassed due to the altitude is not much different than saying Cain only lost because he put his gloves on the wrong hands. Or Cain only lost because he forgot what day the fight was on.



ReptilianSlayer said:


> That's why they call him the terminator. I was absolutely amazed how Cain kept trucking forward throwing punches and kicks whilst eating HEAVY, stiff shots by Werdum. He just wouldn't go down.


...and now we know the truth. He always moves straight ahead throwing punches and kicks because any other game plan would be too complex for him.


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## MK. (Dec 16, 2012)

mmaswe82 said:


> I actually feel like Cain looked like shit in this fight. I bet if he can return to his usual form, then he will dominate his way back to the top. The layoff and the altitude was the only reason Werdum won IMO. Cain relies heavily on cardio to pressure fighters and this time he looked gassed after half of the first round. Not saying anything about the win, it was legit & it's Cains fault and noone else that he ddidn't come in shape. I just feel like technically, Cain is the better fighter of the two & I bet he will win a rematch if he can stay injury free.


How much are u willing to lose?


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

slapshot said:


> Well let me point out some things that are not different.
> 
> Cain had trouble with werdum's reach and he'd have even more trouble with Jones's.
> 
> ...


He had some trouble with the reach but Werdum's striking is much different from Jones' striking. This doesn't necessarily mean that Cain would struggle less or more with Jones' reach. As for not being able to take Jones down, that is still pure speculation. Nobody knows at all and won't know until it happens. That's all I am saying. 

As for Cain being overrated. I do think he is still a top 3 heavyweight easily, but I also think he was made out to be unbeatable way too early and Werdum proved it.



mmaswe82 said:


> I actually feel like Cain looked like shit in this fight. I bet if he can return to his usual form, then he will dominate his way back to the top. The layoff and the altitude was the only reason Werdum won IMO. Cain relies heavily on cardio to pressure fighters and this time he looked gassed after half of the first round. Not saying anything about the win, it was legit & it's Cains fault and noone else that he ddidn't come in shape. I just feel like technically, Cain is the better fighter of the two & I bet he will win a rematch if he can stay injury free.


This just isn't true. Werdum was tagging Cain from the start of the fight, cut him early, negated the clinch and Cain did not want anything to do with the ground game. Not scoring a lot of takedown coupled with Werdum actually being competent in the clinch unlike JDS took away a lot of Cains one sided pressure. 

The better fighter won that night. I mean Cain beats 2 people in 5 years and people just think he is unbeatable. He fights 1 new fighter, loses and the excuses pour in.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

mmaswe82 said:


> I actually feel like Cain looked like shit in this fight. I bet if he can return to his usual form, then he will dominate his way back to the top. The layoff and the altitude was the only reason Werdum won IMO. Cain relies heavily on cardio to pressure fighters and this time he looked gassed after half of the first round. Not saying anything about the win, it was legit & it's Cains fault and noone else that he ddidn't come in shape. I just feel like technically, Cain is the better fighter of the two & *I bet he will win a rematch if he can stay injury free.*


I wouldnt put any money at all on either of those 2 hopes. I'd say Cain fights maybe 1 more fight (if that) and then gets another long term injury.

Werduum was the better fighter, with the better game plan. He beat Cain where Cain fights best, up against the fence. Other than Cain catching him with a big shot I don't see him beating Werduum any time soon, not only that, but there is nobody I see beating him as he is just too strong everywhere now his standup has almost caught up with his ground game.

I feel a bit weird saying that whilst I wanted Werdum to win, I had Cain for the win quite convincingly.


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## arkanoydz (Mar 15, 2010)

Killz said:


> I feel a bit weird saying that whilst I wanted Werdum to win, I had Cain for the win quite convincingly.


thought exactly the same


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> If Jon Jones was fighting Cain instead of Werdum, Jones would have destroyed him. Heavyweights are always a bit slower and more sluggish than other weights. To be fair those guys were probably way over 40lbs heavier than most LHWs come fight night.


Is that true though? Neither Cain or Werdum cut weight for the fight. Both came in around 240. Jones fight night weight is an unknown but I would be surprised if it was less then 230. Either way, its nowhere near 40lbs. If Bones fought at HW he would come in at around 240 I reckon.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Jumanji said:


> Javier Mendez was actually begging Cain to go to Mexico a lot sooner, but Cain is the one who said no. He said it was hard for him to get Cain there two weeks before the fight, let alone more than that.
> 
> But i agree on the second part, telling a dazed and wobbly guy to shoot for a double against a world class BJJ specialist isn't really smart.


It's not really stupid when the fact is he's being beat like stepchild striking and that guy your telling is Cain.

Maybe they should have just tossed in the towel but all that would have done is ask if he wants to get high..

What a sick world we live in.



Soojooko said:


> Is that true though? Neither Cain or Werdum cut weight for the fight. Both came in around 240. Jones fight night weight is an unknown but I would be surprised if it was less then 230. Either way, its nowhere near 40lbs. If Bones fought at HW he would come in at around 240 I reckon.


Ive herd more than a few times he's tipping the scales at close to 220 on fight night. That leaves a lot of room for him to get larger.

Jones would retain most his hand speed and pick up some power.


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## amoosenamedhank (Sep 2, 2009)

slapshot said:


> It's not really stupid when the fact is he's being beat like stepchild striking and that guy your telling is Cain.
> 
> Maybe they should have just tossed in the towel but all that would have done is ask if he wants to get high..


I'm guessing DC believed in Cain's top game more than Cain did himself... I guess we saw who was right. 

I do agree though, he seemed like a sitting duck on his feet... what other choice did they have?


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

Killz said:


> I wouldnt put any money at all on either of those 2 hopes. I'd say Cain fights maybe 1 more fight (if that) and then gets another long term injury.
> 
> Werduum was the better fighter, with the better game plan. He beat Cain where Cain fights best, up against the fence. Other than Cain catching him with a big shot I don't see him beating Werduum any time soon, not only that, but there is nobody I see beating him as he is just too strong everywhere now his standup has almost caught up with his ground game.
> 
> I feel a bit weird saying that whilst I wanted Werdum to win, I had Cain for the win quite convincingly.


Yea that's the problem, he doesn't seem to be able to stay injury free. But if he does, then I'd bet money on Cain to win a rematch. I mean it can't just be mee that thought Cain looked extremely slow from the start & not at all like the Cain we are used to seeing. The same guy that beat Brock, JDS, Bigfoot etc. Looked twice as fast as this.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

mmaswe82 said:


> Yea that's the problem, he doesn't seem to be able to stay injury free. But if he does, then I'd bet money on Cain to win a rematch. I mean it can't just be mee that thought Cain looked extremely slow from the start & not at all like the Cain we are used to seeing. The same guy that beat Brock, JDS, Bigfoot etc. Looked twice as fast as this.


It could very well be that, or just as likely, the shear number of long term injuries he's had starting to take their toll. Guess we'll never know unless they fought again

To me he didn't look that slow until he started eating a beating, which started pretty much straight away.


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## Aiken (May 3, 2010)

Cain weighed around 240 for that fight... Now I don't remember him ever looking ripped - but Friday during the weigh-in he didn't look in great shape at all...

Werdum is two inches taller and probably packs 20lb more muscle that Velasquez... in my opinion, Cain never stood a chance

We are all conditioned by watching fights that are called by Joe Rogan and he, in my opinion, is responsible for a lot of misdirection...

I've said it before - watch the Hendricks vs GSP fight with the sound off and then tell me that Hendricks won that fight! *Every* time Hendricks threw the right hand Rogan had a bloody fit, like we expected GSP to drop dead of something... but the reality is that those punches didn't land, but still we are left with Joe Rogan's voice ringing in our ears at the end of every round... Same is true of the Jones/Gustafsson fight (albeit to a lesser extent)

We are all told that the UFC HW Champ is the "Baddest Man on the Planet" and we all want to believe that line... But MMA is a rock paper scissors game and no matter how good you are , eventually you will meet your personal Kryptonite.

In the UFC, Cain has beaten Kongo, Rothwell, big Nog, Bigfoot and JDS - did we honestly think that beating those five fighters meant Cain was the best ever? 

IMO we finally we have a worthy HW champion who's going to fight more often than once every 211 days... That's not to say that Werdum is unbeatable, because clearly he is not. But with his improved striking I'm thoroughly looking forward to him defending the title against JDS, Arlovski, even Overoid (albeit Overoid doesn't come close to deserving a title shot at the moment).

If you have one takeaway from this post - stop believing everything that Joe Rogan says... he works for the UFC! and cannot be trusted


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## UKMMAGURU (Nov 15, 2009)

All this debate about Cain, I Think Werdum is just that good, a celebrated BJJ veteran with very good muay thai and a good chin to match.

Personally I don't think Junior, Stipe or Arlovski will be able to make it to the judges.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Werdum is awesome. Cain "gassed" because that's what happens when you take repeated clean shots to the head. Werdum simply has an effective answer for everything Cain does.

People need to stop buying into UFC hype, be it Rogan or DW or whatever else they keep throwing out there. Cain was never as great as he was hyped to be. (same goes for <insert current champs and contenders here>) Think for yourself, geez.

Who gets the next title shot? Will the HW title now keep swapping between Cain, JDS, and Werdum? haha Maybe Arlovski next? hmm.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm not really sure where this idea that Werdum is easy to KO came from. He got blasted by an uppercut by JDS early in the first round, like less than 2 minutes in. Show me anyone who's taking that shot and staying on their feet. Oh and that fight was SEVEN YEARS AGO! Since he's fought plenty of guys with serious knockout power and I don't remember him being in any trouble other than when Hunt hit him in their title fight. And despite some of the people on this forums opinion standing with Mark Hunt is a horrible idea, whether you think his striking is elite or not. Also as far as everyone talking about how Hunt went to the ground and survived so Cain shouldn't have worried, Hunt did literally ******* nothing he didn't try to GnP or much of anything and that was after he knocked Werdum down. Cain was going to try to GnP Werdum and thus far anyone who has tried to actually play the game with Werdum has ended up on the wrong end of it. Sure guys have stalled out and laid in his guard and not been subbed but that's not doing anything but getting you stood up. Cain fought the only real way he had and Werdum beat him everywhere. And until a rematch happens and Cain shows anything different it's going to be hard to convince me that Cain just gassed because he's been out a while and otherwise would have thrashed Werdum. Cain's power has always been questioned and he landed plenty on Werdum and never looked to have him in trouble outside of maybe a head kick in the third. On the other hand Cain's questioned chin was getting bounced around by jabs and right hands. He got demolished and hurt probably half a dozen times in the second. As far as I'm concerned Cain needs two wins before he gets a rematch and they need to be against someone not named JDS or Bigfoot.

As far as who's next I'd say Arlovski. JDS has looked like shit in his last two and there isn't anyone else. Werdum just beat Hunt and Stipe is coming off a loss in which he didn't look great against a zombie in JDS and a imho less than impressive win over Mark Hunt.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

I think the most important thing in this fight was distance control, Werdum was able to keep Cain off him better than anyone else and prevent him from connecting with power. Werdum was able to use his reach & footwork to put Cain right in the butter zone for his punches while keeping himself at the end of Cain's punches. 

It's not that Cain doesn't punch hard, problem for him was that Werdum was mostly out of range so that Cain was reaching for a lot of his punches and couldn't connect with power. At the same time, he was running himself face first into Werdum's punches while trying to land his strikes, which just adds to the power of Werdum's strikes. Werdum basically used Cain's constant forward movement and aggression against him. That was smart fighting.

Problem for Cain is he only has one way to fight, and it works, until it doesn't. He's not like Jon Jones who can adapt & change his style to counter & exploit his opponents in the middle of a fight, and how pulls out new tricks with each fight.


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## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

I think Werdum is one of the smartest, craftiest HWs in the game. The only thing amazing he does is BJJ, but he tempers everything else with savvy application. 

It's pretty crazy how things go. JDS uppercuts Werdum to heaven and then Werdum is cut from the UFC. The new prospect will be a superstar and the aging vet is on the clock to his retirement.

Cut to 7 years later and look where we are. The difference? Werdum is a smart fighter who adjusts and improves. JDS has all the physical gifts but no idea how to adapt his game. Wonder what would happen if these 2 fought again.

As for Cain, does anyone know why he didn't want to train at all in mexico or high altitude? Makes no sense, especially given the whole "mexican pride" thing. You get what you deserve I suppose.


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## Sports_Nerd (Apr 23, 2012)

I thought Werdum's striking actually looked less impressive than it did in the Browne fight. And he did have success with knees in the clinch, but based on the progression of the fight I'd say that altitude and lack of preparation were still the biggest factors in Cain looking gassed by the end of the 1st.

And I can't stress the lack of preparation enough. Cain had no clue how to deal with the plum, and his whole game plan boiled down to this:

Plan A - Pressure.
If plan A doesn't work - go to plan A.

Arlovski is a coin toss, but I think JDS, Stipe, and even Overeem all take Werdum's lunch money. Not that I would bet against him, mind you.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

Iuanes said:


> I think Werdum is one of the smartest, craftiest HWs in the game. The only thing amazing he does is BJJ, but he tempers everything else with savvy application.
> 
> It's pretty crazy how things go. JDS uppercuts Werdum to heaven and then Werdum is cut from the UFC. The new prospect will be a superstar and the aging vet is on the clock to his retirement.
> 
> ...


It's cos he hates mexicans.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Six guys were puking after their fights, Nates blood pressure was a concern before the fight, every fighter looked to be effected by the altitude.

Im a big critic of Cain's as most here know but I dont think that fight looks the same in Vegas. 

I think Cain deserves a rematch not because he deserves the opportunity, he lost definitively but because WE DESERVE to see fighters fight at their best not at some elevation that requires special considerations which may or may not compromise a fighters ability's, its not football these kind of things are how fighters get killed.

DC could step up and challenge for the title as well, dont think anyone has done such a thing other than hendo the roido.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

slapshot said:


> Six guys were puking after their fights, Nates blood pressure was a concern before the fight, every fighter looked to be effected by the altitude.
> 
> Im a big critic of Cain's as most here know but I dont think that fight looks the same in Vegas.
> 
> ...


Cain may well have been at his best...


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## Ryankmfdm (Sep 24, 2010)

Iuanes said:


> As for Cain, does anyone know why he didn't want to train at all in mexico or high altitude? Makes no sense, especially given the whole "mexican pride" thing. You get what you deserve I suppose.


See, the thing about Cain is he's very proud of his heritage. Not quite to the point where's he's willing to spend an extra week or two in his country of origin, but definitely proud enough to get a tattoo to indicate it.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Ryankmfdm said:


> See, the thing about Cain is he's very proud of his heritage. Not quite to the point where's he's willing to spend an extra week or two in his country of origin, but definitely proud enough to get a tattoo to indicate it.


Yeah he spent the extra weeks in his country of origin.... The guy can barely speak Spanish. #brownpride #ehmexicanswedidithuh


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Altitude may have been a little factor, but it isn't like that fight was the battle of two renowned cardio monsters with one of them preparing on altitude and the other one not.

I did not predict Werdum to certainly win, but I gave him a good chance, because:



Voiceless said:


> Velasquez is superior to everybody he fought, true, BUT he's only fought one dimensional fighters so far. His best opponent is a one dimensional boxer who has a somewhat decent TDD against the slow plodding behemoths of the division, but other than that hasn't shown any ground skills (and almost got submitted by Carwin).
> 
> *Werdum will be the first fighter who is at least two dimensional. He has improved his striking a lot and isn't afraid of getting taken down*, in contrast to Dos Santos.


Werdum trained and fought like a real professional, always kept composure, had the better striking technique and didn't try to force the KO when he had Velasquez rocked.

And it wasn't a dumb idea of Velasquez' corner to call for the TD. Velasquez got beat up bad on the feet. He doesn't have Hunt's ability to KO people while being completely exhausted and would probably be (T)KOed within the next minutes. A TD against Werdum is of course a bad strategy, but it was the only option left if they wanted Velasquez to maybe at least gain top control and to recover a little from the beating. And if trying to get Werdum to the ground is your best option available, you see how bad the fight is going for you.

That was an absolute well deserved win.

And I love that smile as soon as Werdum locked the guillotine in. He knew this was a dead end for Velasquez.


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## Ryankmfdm (Sep 24, 2010)

Life B Ez said:


> Yeah he spent the extra weeks in his country of origin.... The guy can barely speak Spanish. #brownpride #ehmexicanswedidithuh


Apologies. "Country of origin" should've been in quotes in my original post.


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## Sports_Nerd (Apr 23, 2012)

Voiceless said:


> Altitude may have been a little factor, but it isn't like that fight was the battle of two renowned cardio monsters with one of them preparing on altitude and the other one not.
> 
> I did not predict Werdum to certainly win, but I gave him a good chance, because:
> 
> ...


There's a third option you know. Get him to the fence and secure an overhook so you don't find yourself in the double collar tie again. which is where Cain is at his best anyway.

It's just that Werdum was not only prepared for the altitude, he was prepared for Cain. I don't know what Cain thought he was prepared for. Maybe bigfoot.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Sports_Nerd said:


> There's a third option you know. Get him to the fence and secure an overhook so you don't find yourself in the double collar tie again. which is where Cain is at his best anyway.


Velasquez wasn't able to do that, from late round 1 on Werdum was winning the clinch fights. It was not that Velasquez team was dumb in that moment, but Velasquez simply got completely outclassed in the stand up, so he had to try something else. That's why the TD attempt came.


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Did Werdum come out to the Last of the Mohicans theme? Pretty funny considering how Dana was supposed to have reacted to Tim Boetsch coming out to Conan the Barbarian.

I think it was this song.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Trix said:


> Did Werdum come out to the Last of the Mohicans theme? Pretty funny considering how Dana was supposed to have reacted to Tim Boetsch coming out to Conan the Barbarian.
> 
> I think it was this song.


Why¿ And is there a special context for Werdum to use that song or was it just because it is actually a nice entrance song¿


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## Sports_Nerd (Apr 23, 2012)

Voiceless said:


> Velasquez wasn't able to do that, from late round 1 on Werdum was winning the clinch fights. It was not that Velasquez team was dumb in that moment, but Velasquez simply got completely outclassed in the stand up, so he had to try something else. That's why the TD attempt came.


Once again, the decision to go for the TD wasn't a momentary lapse of judgement so much as the end result of an appalling lack of preparation. However, despite the fact that Werdum had gotten the better of Cain in the clinch up that point (again, what the hell were they working in camp, his jumpshot?) Cain's best chance of success (or let's call it like it is - survival) lay along that fence. Getting into Werdum's guard is a dangerous proposition at the best of times, it's suicide when your brain is getting so little oxygen that your vision is swimming.

ETA: By the way, how many fighters do you think watched that fight and thought "Just go for the "inadvertent" groin shot. You always get at least one freebie anyway."


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

I think if Cain had been mixing in takedowns from the start he would of had much more success. Cain is no striker, he needs everything all working together to be successful. 

I think safety first smart Cain could sit in Werdums guard and survive, if he is that worried about it, He should have just kept dumping him on the floor and standing back, letting Werdum get back up.


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## amoosenamedhank (Sep 2, 2009)

Joabbuac said:


> I think if Cain had been mixing in takedowns from the start he would of had much more success. Cain is no striker, he needs everything all working together to be successful.
> 
> I think safety first smart Cain could sit in Werdums guard and survive, if he is that worried about it, i just keep dumping him on the floor and stand back, letting him get back up.


I don't think Cain survives in Werdum's guard so dump and stand was his only option.

Had he employed that I think Werdum would have eventually started trying to pull guard. 

Certainly Cain gassing faster than Phil Baroni played a big part in this fight but I think we got to see what Cain's striking looks like when the guy on the other end welcomes the TD.

I think Werdum is a better Kick boxer than Cain, and when Cain didn't have his comfort zone of laying on a guy to fall back on... he folded faster than a broken lawn chair.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

amoosenamedhank said:


> I don't think Cain survives in Werdum's guard so dump and stand was his only option.
> 
> Had he employed that I think Werdum would have eventually started trying to pull guard.
> 
> ...


I didn't think Mark Hunt would be able to survive in his guard either tbh, Cain would have to be less wild there than he usually is though.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Joabbuac said:


> I didn't think Mark Hunt would be able to survive in his guard either tbh, Cain would have to be less wild there than he usually is though.


Hunt had just rocked Werdum and then literally just laid there and still almost got caught in an armbar or triangle if I remember correctly. Trying to land any kind of serious GnP from Werdum's guard would just be stupid. Why Cain didn't stay on Werdum when he turtled was odd to me though.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

Life B Ez said:


> Hunt had just rocked Werdum and then literally just laid there and still almost got caught in an armbar or triangle if I remember correctly. Trying to land any kind of serious GnP from Werdum's guard would just be stupid. Why Cain didn't stay on Werdum when he turtled was odd to me though.


Honestly... you call staying in his guard stupid, but what wasn't stupid about anything Cain was doing against Werdum, he fought dumb the whole time and ended it with a dumbly telegraphed shot. 

That said, i wouldn't be telling him to try and bust Werdum up in his guard... more him landing a few before trying to pass.


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