# Potential Cure To Over-Wrestling In MMA



## drmz (Jun 24, 2009)

Hi,

I'm a daily browser of these forums as I find the articles both informative and interesting to read. Over recent weeks there has been an influx in "something needs to be done about people laying and praying" articles, and suchlike.

As an avid MMA fan, albeit only for two or three years, I feel that whilst technical, the ground game can become very boring to watch when certain fighters exploit wrestling to "hide" from actually fighting.

Granted, these are fighters, if they are able to negate and threat posed by their opposition by means of exceptional wrestling, that's their perogative, but when we're paying $60 to watch, it can be very frustrating.

Many people here have suggested such means of stopping over-use of lay and pray as "yellow cards" and or "quicker standing up of inactive fighters".

I feel that neither of these will work. Of late, I considered an alternative that I think might.

One takedown permitted, per fighter, per round.

Simple as that, you can take somebody down, but if you're stood up for inactivity, or the opponent rises to his feet, you're TD for that round has been used.

We'll still see the fantastic skillsets of GSP's, Fitch's etc and they'll probably retain active top control for the entire round but if the smaller guys can really train in standing up from their back, they're given a shot.

I feel it'll also stop this clinging to one leg by the cage and dragging an opponent down into a weak position just to secure TD points.

Opinions?


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

ummmmmmmm no. 

Then strikers would start dominating, then what are you gonna do? Limit each fighter to 3 punches a round?


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Stupidest Idea Ever.


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## drmz (Jun 24, 2009)

Why would strikers dominate? The majority of the time, your GSP, Fitchesque fighters secure one takedown and stay on top for the best part of the round. If a fighter is able to escape and get to his feet, it makes things more interesting.


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## TakedownKing (Aug 31, 2010)

I feel that if the Refs are on it you can increase the level of activity...they would need a better briefing on what counts as inactivity...nothing better than deducting points from someone who is inactive. That only works ofc if points are actually deducted.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

drmz said:


> Why would strikers dominate? The majority of the time, your GSP, Fitchesque fighters secure one takedown and stay on top for the best part of the round. If a fighter is able to escape and get to his feet, it makes things more interesting.


You mean make it unfair. Fighters have different strengths, it is up to the fighter to find a way to nulify their opponents strengths as well as use their own strengths.
GSP and Kos' TDs are great but a reason they do so well is also because half the people they face have very poor TDD and no sweeps.


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## Harness (Oct 3, 2009)

I think, as long as you are damaging on the ground, or trying to go for subs, it would be ok. Laying on a guy and holding him still should be stood up straight away!

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I have alcohol poisoning and MEHHHHHHHH.


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## 70seven (Mar 5, 2007)

Its the sport of fighting, it has to remain a fight. Including rules like this changes the fight into a game. "Oh, no more takedown for you for this sound". It doesn't "make for a more exiting fight" it makes more stand up fights, guys like Damien Maia WANTS to fight on the ground, I love watching Matt Hughes slam people on the ground(more than once per round). 

If you like stand up fighting, go watch some K-1 Kickboxing.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

I realize I'm going to sound like a PRIDE fanboy, but I think Japan solves this problem best. Yellow cards and not considering control to be a factor in a decision really helps.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

So if both fighter use their takedowns and don't control their opponent, then it turns into a K-1 fight?

This rule would promote more lay and pray in my opinion. Say a fighter gets the takedown, they are going to be so much more careful with their moves and strikes because now they know that if they get swept or the other fighter stands up, they can't go for another takedown again.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

i always thought the answer was actually spending a large amount of time and effort learning sumo or wrestling and perfecting TDD.

but if you cant win with the current rules, i guess changing them makes sense. I was never a great fastball hitter in baseball, i think they should just outlaw the fastball, whatcha think??


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## TakedownKing (Aug 31, 2010)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> i always thought the answer was actually spending a large amount of time and effort learning sumo or wrestling and perfecting TDD.
> 
> but if you cant win with the current rules, i guess changing them makes sense. I was never a great fastball hitter in baseball, i think they should just outlaw the fastball, whatcha think??


I don't think the OP thought about winning, but about how exciting fights are for the spectator. He doesn't want to change the rules so strikers are getting a better chance, but that IF the fight goes to the ground its actually still exciting to watch.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

TakedownKing said:


> I don't think the OP thought about winning, but about how exciting fights are for the spectator. He doesn't want to change the rules so strikers are getting a better chance, but that IF the fight goes to the ground its actually still exciting to watch.


 Thats fine, its still a bad idea imo. Fans need to educate themselves and appreciate how difficult the ground game really is.

Not all fights are going to be exciting. Not all hockey games are exciting. No sport guarantees excitement, you might end up at a Spurs game or a New Jersey Devils game and fall asleep.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

simple solution is dont score TD's that lead to no damage or no major positional advantage.


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## War (Feb 28, 2007)

TakedownKing said:


> I don't think the OP thought about winning, but about how exciting fights are for the spectator. He doesn't want to change the rules so strikers are getting a better chance, but that IF the fight goes to the ground its actually still exciting to watch.


It isn't about the spectator it's about the fighter. I enjoy watching the ground game but really love a big slam. This "rule" would lessen the chances of seeing that.

Seriously though, people need to examine why they are watching MMA in the first place. It's all fine if you wanna see big KO's and what not, but changing the game just so things you may not like seeing are taken away from others is just wrong.


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## drmz (Jun 24, 2009)

"dont score TD's that lead to no damage or no major positional advantage."

That's all well and good in saying, but is it not subjective? I might view an armbar attempt as damage whilst you don't because the guy escapes etc etc (bad example I know )


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## fullcontact (Sep 16, 2006)

drmz said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm a daily browser of these forums as I find the articles both informative and interesting to read. Over recent weeks there has been an influx in "something needs to be done about people laying and praying" articles, and suchlike.
> 
> ...


Good post along with a solid idea in my opinion.

DJ syo, an even better idea there


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## Keanman (Nov 5, 2008)

I can't say I'd be a big fan of only one take down per round. 

I would like to see less emphasis put on control and sloppy take downs or drag downs. If you dominantly take somebody down or slam them a la Hughes or Maynard, you should get full points. If you have to give everything you have to just barely drag the guy to the ground and he pops back up or hits you with a few shots on the way down, you deserve very little if anything in the way of points.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

You know.... it's a good thing the KO fans didn't outlaw BJJ or judo when MMA started. I can remember when morons boo'ed even while Royce was tapping someone. What he didn't want to stand and fight? The sissy.

If all you like is KO's watch boxing.

If all you like is striking, watch K1 or Kick boxing.

If all you want to do is bitch about the ground game please stop posting. It would be a lot better if YOU educated YOURselves about what is really going on down there.

I used to play racquetball. My friend would just blast shot after shot past me. FINALLY I learned to wait till it hit the back wall and then loft a shot that hit the ceiling first then the front wall. The result was a shot that hit the ground close to the wall then bounded into the back corner where he would run himself into the back or the side wall. You should have heard the whining.

Whining just like this whining day after day about something you don't understand, and don't want.


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## drmz (Jun 24, 2009)

Dude I love wrestling, and I adore watching two BJJ guys roll, I HATE watching wrestlers avoid a fight by LITERALLY lying on a guy for 25 minutes.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Ah, this old dog rearing its ugly head again?

The scoring system is to blame - its that simple. It needs reworking. Trouble is, noone knows how.

As the rules stand i think theyre biased *against* submission grapplers. Submissions can take time to set up, regardless of whether youre ontop or on your back, you gotta wait for the right moment.

Instead of the referee standing the fight up, he should ask the guy on the bottom if he *wants* the fight restarting on the feet. 

Example: _Damian Maia takes down Vitor Belfort. Amidst a scramble, Belfort manages to reverse the position and now has Maia on his back. - *Maia would still prefer this position to being stood up.*

Belfort, being wary of Maia's BJJ skills, is stalling on the ground. He cant back out because Maia has closed his guard and is controlling Belforts body, looking for openings and attempting the occasional submission. Referee Steve Mazzagatti stands the fighters up, putting the advantage back into Belforts court._

Whats happened here is Maia has gotten the takedown he wanted, is rolling with Belfort on the ground which he wants, and Belfort has used defensive wrestling and stalling to get the fight back to his world. That aint fair on Maia. Mazzagatti should ask Maia if he wants the fight standing up - and lets face it, in this situation he may have a better chance of finishing the fight where he is, and he wasnt the one stalling.

However, if both fighters arent making an effort to improve on anything, only then should the fight be stood up in my opinion.


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## drmz (Jun 24, 2009)

Fantastic insight, if I could do all that "rep" malarky I'd rep you


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

drmz said:


> Dude I love wrestling, and I adore watching two BJJ guys roll, I HATE watching wrestlers avoid a fight by LITERALLY lying on a guy for 25 minutes.


No problem..... name the match where that happened. since it has never happened you will be searching a LONG time.

IF someone isn't trying to advance his advantage the ref stands them, that's the rules. The rules of MMA.

Again there are a ton of options of sports to watch, if you don't like MMA, don't get your butt hung on the door knob on your way out.

I like MMA. I don't want non-MMA fans changing it to a sport we already have.

You guys are all convincing each other that what never has happened is happening.

Please leave this sport alone and find one, or better yet start one that fits your needs.

For MILLIONS of us MMA is great, and we don't want people that think the world is waiting for their input to change it or to screw it up.


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## drmz (Jun 24, 2009)

MMA is great. Please don't throw your dummy out of the pram, this is a discussion forum.

Please don't get picky, when I say 25 minutes of lay and pray, you know what I mean. Not the full 25 but takedown - control - round over - takedown - control - round over.

It's also naive to completely dis-regard potential changes as a sport evolves. When new aspects throw a sport into dis-repute, steps must be taken. If changes weren't implemented as the sport grew, it'd still be no rounds and anything goes, soccer-kicking, eye-gouging madness.

As MMA has sky-rocketed in popularity, it's a potential career for wrestlers straight out of college, as such steps need to be taken to prevent the majority of future bouts resembling Jon Fitch fights.


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## nazzac (Aug 29, 2010)

How about having a rule in where you have to land 3 clean standing strikes every round.

But you can't use 3 jabs, or 3 leg kicks. Look for something like a right hook, Left Jab and a leg kick.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

nazzac said:


> How about having a rule in where you have to land 3 clean standing strikes every round.
> 
> But you can't use 3 jabs, or 3 leg kicks. Look for something like a right hook, Left Jab and a leg kick.


I hope this is sarcasm...


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

The cure to over wrestling in MMA is a solid steel based sprawl followed by a hurricane style brawl.

Until you get MMA compeditors on an elite Level with that under their belt. It's just gonna keep happening.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> The cure to over wrestling in MMA is a solid steel based sprawl followed by a hurricane style brawl.
> 
> Until you get MMA compeditors on an elite Level with that under their belt. It's just gonna keep happening.


Like a prime Chuck!:thumb02:


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

just judge the fights as a whole. not the rounds.

thats it. you sqweak out 2 boring rounds of top control but little damage... fine.

you lose the 3rd round in a much more convincing way, you lose.

fights should always be based on the entire fight. I never liked the boxing way of doing things as it leads to guys not trying to finish once they won enough rounds.

MMA is supposed to be a more realistic fight. In real life you can hit me with skinny jabs and lame TDs but no damage all day. If i lay into you hard and have you looking mashed up, ask around who won the fight.


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## mudpie (Apr 20, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> Please leave this sport alone and find one, or better yet start one that fits your needs


mma rules are different in each orgamisation and each organisation's ruleset has evolved over time. Presumably the evolution was for the better - because you seem happy with the current iteration. So what's wrong with discussing how they should keep evolving...?

I like the idea of asking the guy on the ground before standing up.

I would love to see people turtling (or any other kind of whack defense) get yellow cards or point deductions.

Octagon control clinging onto someone, meh. Lentz vs Winner was painful to watch. Although it must be said eventually the wrestler tired the striker out, had it been a five rounder Lentz would have maybe got his way with a non-points win.


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## AceCombat (Mar 6, 2007)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> I realize I'm going to sound like a PRIDE fanboy, but I think Japan solves this problem best. Yellow cards and not considering control to be a factor in a decision really helps.


I agree, Yellow cards could work or warnings even but I believe control of your opponent is very relavent in an MMA match.

The true problem lies in both the leniency of ref's for LnP and fighter's with poor wrestling/grappling defense.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm a huge football fan but what's with all this throwing the ball around? Half the time it just falls on the ground, I think they should ban the forward pass.

I'm a huge Baseball fan, but why should a batter get only 3 strikes when he gets 4 balls, they should change that.

I LOVE Basketball, but what is with all that dribbling? Man o man they dribble more than they shoot, that should be changed.

Soccer is great, but most of the time after a team scores a goal the other team just loses. Why don't they just end the game when a team scores?

I love boxing.... but a lot of times one guy hits harder than the other guy, that isn't fair.

I love wrestling, but sometimes one guy is better at TD's than the other guy is, they should eliminate TD's.

Man Sumo is so cool, but I saw a match where one guy weighed 400 pounds and the other guy was 500 pounds, they should have weight divisions.

Kickboxing is so great, I adore it, but what if one guy can kick the other guy in the head and the other guy can't? No head kicks would be better.

When I watch Nascar one guy always has a faster car than the others. They should all drive the same cars.

Drag racing is ruined by all the divisions. They should all line up and see who is the fastest. Divisions are for panty waists.

When I was a boy, one kid had a better shooter when we played marbles, boring.

When girls jump rope, it seems one girl always has better reflexes than the others. She should be banned.

Jeezus.


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## spaulding91 (Sep 23, 2007)

this reminds me of two hand touch football. only 1 blitz per 4 downs. are you also on the NFL forums arguing for 2 completions gets a first down? 

the answer is more knowledge with the refs, judges, and fans.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Cro Cop and Liddell had the answer to this "problem" in their primes (Cro Cop still might!). 

So we really don't _need_ to change any rules. 
One thing that comes to mind; the NHL was made ridiculously exciting after they changed their rules on a few defensive aspects of the game. And now, goalies have adapted and are still shutting fools out. Everyone all around has adapted, and the game is prettymuch the same as it was now, except with better presentation.


I just think things have a way of fixing themselves, and it's not like we aren't seeing way more KO's and Subs than ever before.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

DJ Syko said:


> simple solution is dont score TD's that lead to no damage or no major positional advantage.


^^^^
This!


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## LuckyPunch (Aug 31, 2010)

Majortom505 said:


> I'm a huge football fan but what's with all this throwing the ball around? Half the time it just falls on the ground, I think they should ban the forward pass.
> 
> I'm a huge Baseball fan, but why should a batter get only 3 strikes when he gets 4 balls, they should change that.
> 
> ...


hahahahaa that was great!:thumb02::thumb02:


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## Uchaaa (Apr 22, 2007)

They just have to change the scoring system. Something like not getting points for a takedown and beeing on top.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

Uchaaa said:


> They just have to change the scoring system. Something like not getting points for a takedown and beeing on top.


Yes and only the hardest punch of the round is scored.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

horrible ideas. You'd ruin the sport. We already have boxing and kick-boxing. Let's let mma be mma.


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## NissanZaxima (Aug 8, 2010)

bring back pride rules to help over-wrestling. Wrestlers are almost have 0 risk from pursuing a failed take down. I have no problem with wrestling but if you are going for a takedown you better make it count.

Going for a submission you are at risk at giving up good position so make it count.

Going in for a strike you are at risk at getting counter struck so make it count

Go in for a takedown... and well you can just push him against the cage until 2 minutes later after a few pu$$y knees so that the ref doesnt break it up you can finally take him down.

Takedowns are simply just to safe. Failed at a takedown and now your opponent is being pressed against the cage? A few 12-6 elbows to your spine will remind you not to do that again. Takedown ended in a good sprawl? Here are a couple knees to your head for your punishment of a failed attempt.

Even though I cant stand GSP and Lesnar I at least respect the fact that when they go for a takedown they actually get it. Fully deserved.

But hardly anyone can deny that the Lentz/Winner fight was anything but 4 pills of Tylenol PM. This was due to the safeness of failed takedown attempts.


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## Maazisrock (Sep 22, 2008)

My god dude. What a horrible idea. Then strikers should only be allowed one punch and one kick......:confused02::confused03::bye02:


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

No. As much as I hate lay and pray, that's just unfair. 



Maazisrock said:


> My god dude. What a horrible idea. Then strikers should only be allowed one punch and one kick......:confused02::confused03::bye02:


My god dude. What a horrible comparison.


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## andromeda_68 (Jul 2, 2009)

just because you paid money for an event doesn't mean every single event is going to be full of a card that's EXCITING ACTION PACKED with 250% MORE ACTION!



it's random chance. if all cards were homogenous it'd become pointless. and if they started telling fighters to make it _more action-y this time_, that'd be like wwe at that point right? and at that point why bother paying?

also, giving fighters severe rules like, only x amount of takedowns, and y amount of time grappling on the floor before standing up, is just as artificial. sometimes fights are boring. sometimes they don't progess for long stretches. that's just how things naturally unfold. you can't force fighters to be "action-y" when they're in a real live fight in the moment and trying to make it work legitimately. 

i can only imagine what the sport might come to when fighters realize (as part of their strategy against potentially much better fighters) that if they just do nothing or act incompetent or tired long enough that'd be enough to restart a fight over and over and over.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Now iv read everything...


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Fail idea is fail.


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## Hawkeye6287 (Mar 25, 2008)

Allowing 12 to 6 elbows would help, they are lethal off the bottom and wrestlers would be much less willing to go for doubles of singles off the fence if when they ducked down you could start laying into them with the point of your elbow. 

I personally don;t mind wrestlers dominating too much, but I hate it when someone is losing the round on the feet and then with 20 secs to go they secure a takedown and win the round on the back of it. Even if they don't do anything on the ground. 

Or you could start scoring someone stuffing a takedown or getting back to their feet as highly as securing a takedown. Surely all it is ensuring the fight takes place where you want it to. So stopping yourself being taken down or getting the fight back to the feet has the same effect.


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## endersshadow (Mar 10, 2010)

ptw said:


> Stupidest Idea Ever.


:confused02: I don't get it.

Did people forget what they were taught as kids - "There's no such thing as a stupid question"?

Is the internet tough-guy mentality really that prevalent?

Change isn't always bad. Different isn't always scary. If everyone did the same thing, thought the same way, performed to the same ability... what's the point in anything? Individuality is what makes people special. Everyone likes being special...

/philosophic rant.

edit: I know that there are many people that made similar comments. I just didn't feel like quoting everyone... so don't feel lonely if you apply to my notion.


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## Tweak (Aug 28, 2010)

The only way to stop LnP is by changing the scoring system. LnP is trying to avoid the fight. If a fighter LnP he should be duducted points, just like when a fighter is avoiding the fight while on his feet by back peddling. For example. Fighter A is striking with Fighter B. Fighter B shoots and secures the takedown. Fighter B then lays in Fighter A's guard for the rest of the round. Fighter B then should only receive points for the Takedown, not for dominance. If fighter A remains more active off his back then Fighter B who is just camping in his guard Fighter A should win the round.

This is a solution to LnP. It will discourage people. People will work their position for submissions if they are not getting points while on the ground. Ground battles will be as fierce as stand up fights. This solution will not change they way the sport is fought at all either, just if your gameplan revolves around laying on your opponent don't expect to win fights.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

"Is the internet tough-guy mentality really that prevalent?"

Oh it is, some gutless bastid gave me bad rep because he was too stupid to understand the post.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

SJ said:


> Cro Cop and Liddell had the answer to this "problem" in their primes (Cro Cop still might!).
> 
> So we really don't _need_ to change any rules.
> One thing that comes to mind; the NHL was made ridiculously exciting after they changed their rules on a few defensive aspects of the game. And now, goalies have adapted and are still shutting fools out. Everyone all around has adapted, and the game is prettymuch the same as it was now, except with better presentation.
> ...


Liddell probably still has the solution to that problem its the getting dropped every other time he gets hit in the face probelm that is messing him up.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Lay n pray was not created by wrestlers, but rather by rule makers who took away their ability to end fights on the ground with knees and other weapons. Now they're talking about ending elbows. 

The more rules they add, the worse the sport will become.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

_RIVAL_ said:


> The cure to over wrestling in MMA is a solid steel based sprawl followed by a hurricane style brawl.
> 
> Until you get MMA compeditors on an elite Level with that under their belt. It's just gonna keep happening.


There will always be fans who don't want to watch anything other than a storm of striking, and boo the moment a fight hits the ground.

So yeah. Make it into a K-1 fight, so those people, and the fans who are maybe one level up from them in terms of knowledge of the sport, can be entertained.

IDK how much bearing it has on this discussion, however I've read before that the UFC rules are biased in favor of wrestlers.


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## kay_o_ken (Jan 26, 2009)

or what if just to be fair one fighter asked the other fighter if it was alright to take him down before he does?? and then if the other fighter is unable to get back up the first fighter will let him up and maybe give him a nice pat on the back for encouragement?


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## endersshadow (Mar 10, 2010)

kay_o_ken said:


> or what if just to be fair one fighter asked the other fighter if it was alright to take him down before he does?? and then if the other fighter is unable to get back up the first fighter will let him up and maybe give him a nice pat on the back for encouragement?


Sounds like the Pat Berry/Mirko CroCop fight. I know that's not what happened, but I wouldn't have been surprised if it did.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

drmz said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm a daily browser of these forums as I find the articles both informative and interesting to read. Over recent weeks there has been an influx in "something needs to be done about people laying and praying" articles, and suchlike.
> 
> ...


This is a TERRIBLE idea. I don't like yellow cards but I'd take them over this any day.


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## bowesy2006 (Feb 4, 2007)

the cure for over wrestling in mma..... learn some take down defense its simple


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## neoseeker (Jun 16, 2007)

Actually, I dont think it's a bad idea at all. This could be the idea that would lead to the implementation of a series of new rules. How old is the UFC now ? When was the last time there was an amendment or revision to the rules ? Now compare that to the NFL,NBA, NHL and MBL and you get my drift.


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## DrJekyll540 (Aug 11, 2010)

ptw said:


> Stupidest Idea Ever.


I couldnt agree more it is Mixed Martial Arts for a reason


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

neoseeker said:


> Actually, I dont think it's a bad idea at all. This could be the idea that would lead to the implementation of a series of new rules. How old is the UFC now ? When was the last time there was an amendment or revision to the rules ? Now compare that to the NFL,NBA, NHL and MBL and you get my drift.


There is no reason to restrict what a fighter can do further. If anything, they should be removing rules.


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

Money talks! Bring on the yellow cards and take away 10% of the purse for every card.

That'll take care of that problem


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## UKMMAGURU (Nov 15, 2009)

I think a modified knees to the head rule should come in, if someone shoots for the takedown on their knees it should be ok to knee them in the head, however i'm against the Mark Coleman vs Igor Vovchanchyn type of knee to the head......


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

Vale_Tudo said:


> Money talks! Bring on the yellow cards and take away 10% of the purse for every card.
> 
> That'll take care of that problem


Awful idea, you are trying to fix something that isn't broken. Enjoy MMA or move on to a sport you can enjoy.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

Majortom505 said:


> Awful idea, you are trying to fix something that isn't broken. Enjoy MMA or move on to a sport you can enjoy.


What he said!

Wrestling is just part of the evolution, someday in 5-10 years we'll se another dominate fightingstyle take over from wrestling...


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## TakedownKing (Aug 31, 2010)

HexRei said:


> There is no reason to restrict what a fighter can do further. If anything, they should be removing rules.


I agree...rules should be there to protect the health of the fighters and not to shape the form of battle.


Something that would serve both: Allowing to grab the cage. Removing that rule would make takedowns on the cage harder. (not sure how many fingers broke while holding the cage though or why that rule was put in place in the first place)


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

TakedownKing said:


> I agree...rules should be there to protect the health of the fighters and not to shape the form of battle.
> 
> 
> Something that would serve both: Allowing to grab the cage. Removing that rule would make takedowns on the cage harder. (not sure how many fingers broke while holding the cage though or why that rule was put in place in the first place)


It was put in place because it's an unfair advantage and has nothing to do with actual skills. It's bad enough people can use the cage in their backs to defend a takedown and get back up again so I don't think allowing to grab the cage would be a good idea. It's obvious the cage is not a neutral environment though since it's such a big part in a fight. I'd be in favor of any rule that makes the cage a non-factor.


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## rvd (Jul 6, 2006)

Potential Cure To Over-Wrestling In MMA 

TDD?


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Go-Go-Gadget Sprawl!


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

you know i dont really want to change the rules so wrestlers dont LnP BUT...i do not like LnP, i do respect the skill that is needed to pull off the TD and hold the person down, but its not really fun to watch after that UNLESS theres some nice GnP

but anyway, i think its up to the other fighter to stop the TDs and i always look forward to the fighter that can stop the wrestler, its their job

though i will say this, the scoring system in MMA is about to change and soon it will, and wrestling wont have such an advantage on points in the future

also, i think its pretty silly for the ppl defending wrestling to say that theres no need for more changes and that things are perfect the way they are...''dont fix what aint broken''

MMA is still a new sport and its still evolving, its not done yet, there will be new rules in the future, there will be new systems, changes will happen because the sport ISNT perfect yet...but it will get there, and for those who dont like change....too bad, its bound to happen:thumb02:


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

I think MMA needs its own judges. Its no use having judges who dont know their arse from their elbow when it comes to grappling. Its no use having a judge who knows all about boxing, but nothing about BJJ, and vice versa. Its about time the whole scoring and judging system got an overhaul. Wheres Xzibit at? *MTV. . . Pimp my Judges!!*


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## wormathletics (Aug 16, 2010)

drmz said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm a daily browser of these forums as I find the articles both informative and interesting to read. Over recent weeks there has been an influx in "something needs to be done about people laying and praying" articles, and suchlike.
> 
> ...


Interesting point...but I think that limiting the amount of take downs is not such a good idea. I think that the answer is more aggressive refereeing ... in that the referee stands the fighters up if there's a lull in the action. What that would mean is that if you're constantly jostling for postion then there's action. But as soon as the action stops...you get stood up. It would force figters to keep busy so as not to lose their advantage.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

ACTAFOOL said:


> you know i dont really want to change the rules so wrestlers dont LnP BUT...i do not like LnP, i do respect the skill that is needed to pull off the TD and hold the person down, but its not really fun to watch after that UNLESS theres some nice GnP
> 
> but anyway, i think its up to the other fighter to stop the TDs and i always look forward to the fighter that can stop the wrestler, its their job
> 
> ...


I have asked this over and over, perhaps you can give me an answer. What fight, and fighter, LnP's?

I believe that many people, don't understand the ground game at all and think nothing is going on, then are lead by others that are the same to call it LnP when it is simply a lack of knowledge of the ground game that is the truth.

I am not accusing you, but fill me in.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

That's pretty much any fighter who controls and "blankets" someone rather than staying busy on the ground, as I understand it.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

swpthleg said:


> That's pretty much any fighter who controls and "blankets" someone rather than staying busy on the ground, as I understand it.


Fight and fighter please.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I definately think adding a yellow care system to the current judging system would help make fighters more active!:thumbsup:


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## Tweak (Aug 28, 2010)

Solution to Lay and Pray:

Change the scoring system, if a fighter who is in guard is not advancing position or making solid striking efforts (like what Chael Sonnen does, not what Maynard does)they will not be awarded any points for anything other then the Takedown.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

What are you talking about? Sonnen was close to finishing Silva at times in that match!:thumbsdown:


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## Tweak (Aug 28, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> What are you talking about? Sonnen was close to finishing Silva at times in that match!:thumbsdown:


You misunderstand, Sonnen is my example of what wrestlers whould do. Under my rule changes he would get points after the takedown. Maynard wouldn't though, he is just a blanket.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, those who do not try to finish the fight when they take someone down should be penalized!:thumbsdown:


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> Fight and fighter please.


Two good examples off the top of my head; Kos vs Daley, and Sherk vs Florian


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Two good examples off the top of my head; Kos vs Daley, and Sherk vs Florian


Add KingMo/Mousasi to that list.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, but even though the fights all went to decisions, the wrestlers were all active in their ground and pound!


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

punching some1 every 40 seconds isnt GnP...its stalling so the ref doesnt stand you up

im not saying every wrestler just LnPs all the time, and i love the ground game, its actually my fav part, i like submissions, i train BJJ so im all for ground fighting

but there are some fights where the wrestler just takes the other guy down and doesnt GnP...i dont know where ppl see GnP, kos vs daley was ridiculous...sure i know how its hard to keep some1 down, the positioning of hips, legs, and balance the guy needs but once he just does that for 3 rounds and nothing else i dont enjoy watching that

chael has some great GnP and i like watching his fights, same with JBJ, brock,GSP, but you can tell they ary trying to finish the fights, while others just ride the victory

rashad has been doing a lot of LnP, im a fan of his and i like his fights but his last 2 were just boring except for the slams

this doesnt mean i just want to see a KO..ive been bored with many fights where 2 guys just fight stand up

i just want to see action, take him down, get to another position, work for a sub or do some actual GnP, throw those elbows, knock the guy out do something dont just hug him for 3/4 of the round, thats all

but its ok, soon there will be fighters who will be able to counter that and that will be exciting to watch, i dont hate on wrestlers i just hope some1 can actually stop them because SOME of them really are boring in some fights

ive been entertained by rashad, kos, and other wrestlers in some of their fights so i dont actually hate on them, just on the fights that they really werent looking for a way to finish:thumb02:


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Two good examples off the top of my head; Kos vs Daley, and Sherk vs Florian


Well I didn't think Kos v daley was LnP so I just rewatched it, and now I am sure it wasn't.

For the first 14 mins Kos constantly either punched or improved his position every second on top. Let's give Daley some credit for having dome defense when on his back.

The last min. Kos was torturing Daley by controling him and talking to him. Maybe that wasn't trying to finish the fight and perhaps fits the LnP label, but he earned it to me and it really worked as Daley punked out and sucker punched Kos because he was so damn frustrated.

If they ever change the rules to eliminate a fight like that they will lose this fan,


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well that still didn't justify what Daley did afterwards at all!:thumbsdown:


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> Well that still didn't justify what Daley did afterwards at all!:thumbsdown:


Absolutely correct. Daley deserved to be cut. Instead of doing what GSP did after his loss to Serra, which was work to improve, he decided to show his real self and act like a soccer punk.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> *Well I didn't think Kos v daley was LnP so I just rewatched it, and now I am sure it wasn't.
> *
> For the first 14 mins Kos constantly either punched or improved his position every second on top. Let's give Daley some credit for having dome defense when on his back.
> 
> ...


Wow, if you cant see the lay and pray in that fight you must have been educated by the Cecil Peoples Circus.

Care to rewatch the Florian / Sherk fight and tell me that wasnt lay and pray too? :thumb02:


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

There was some ground and pound in that fight but not alot of it!:thumbsdown:


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Here's a cure:

1. Overtime rounds
2. Yellow card/Red card system

Effectively eliminating judges and decisions. Although the current WW elite would end up in like 1 hour fights. 

At least there'd be more MMA fights, finishes and inflicting damage becomes more important than getting the rounds/points.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Wow, if you cant see the lay and pray in that fight you must have been educated by the Cecil Peoples Circus.
> 
> Care to rewatch the Florian / Sherk fight and tell me that wasnt lay and pray too? :thumb02:


I would, but I can't find the fight.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> I would, but I can't find the fight.


Thats because there was no fight. Its probably filed under H for Hugs. Hope that helps your search :thumb02:


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Thats because there was no fight. Its probably filed under H for Hugs. Hope that helps your search :thumb02:


Now that's funny.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

What happens when you get a take down and they get back up instantly? Does that count as a TD? Or do they have to control them on the ground for a certain amount of time?


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## DanTheJu (Mar 3, 2007)

Limiting a fighter to one takedown per round is a giant advantage for strikers.

Here is why:

If a wrestler takes a striker down early in the round and the striker is able to stand back up the entire complexion of the round has changed. The striker can now change his stance to a pure striking stance and fire many kicks with out the fear of being taken down. 

It would then be an unfair fight, taking a skill set away from one fighter and highlighting another’s skill set! The solution is better TDD and better officiating!


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

DanTheJu said:


> Limiting a fighter to one takedown per round is a giant advantage for strikers.
> 
> Here is why:
> 
> ...


Well Dan... that is exactly what they want. They want to see Boxing disguised as MMA. They never suggest a striker be limited to one head kick attempt or one left hook a round. They never suggest a BBJ guy gets one sub attempt a rd. Nope, they don't understand the ground game and they want it stopped. Knock-outs that's all they care about. They even bitch about decision wins.

That's why they need to move on. They aren't MMA fans, they are violence and brutality fans and that's all. 

These anti-wrestling threads all say the same thing, they are merely disguised as if they weren't. There must be about 5 to 10 posted threads like this posted in the time since Edgar beat their hero and they can't deal with it. They say "Change it so my guy can't lose.

It is beyond pathetic and they proudly proclaim it anyway.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> Well Dan... that is exactly what they want. They want to see Boxing disguised as MMA. *They never suggest a striker be limited to one head kick attempt or one left hook a round. They never suggest a BBJ guy gets one sub attempt a rd.* Nope, they don't understand the ground game and they want it stopped. Knock-outs that's all they care about. They even bitch about decision wins.
> 
> That's why they need to move on. They aren't MMA fans, they are violence and brutality fans and that's all.
> 
> ...


You need to lighten up buddy and quit acting like someone punched your gran and stole her mittens.

I found a couple just by *reading* the first couple of pages.



edlavis88 said:


> ummmmmmmm no.
> 
> Then strikers would start dominating, then what are you gonna do? Limit each fighter to 3 punches a round?





Maazisrock said:


> My god dude. What a horrible idea. Then strikers should only be allowed one punch and one kick......:confused02::confused03::bye02:


People have differing opinions. You act like your opinion is fact. Then you start whaling on about how its all bullshit and unfair. What next? Will you be moaning about how people calling for an end to lay and pray made your wife leave you and your dog run away?

Chill the phuck out! :thumbsup:


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

The Lone Wolf said:


> You need to lighten up buddy and quit acting like someone punched your gran and stole her mittens.
> 
> I found a couple just by *reading* the first couple of pages.
> 
> ...


So your opinion is gold.... and those that disagree are whining and need to chill out?

Yeah that's a logical way to look at it. I mean... you say others have opinions, yet chastise those that have opinions that differ from your's.

It can't be both ways.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> So your opinion is gold.... and those that disagree are whining and need to chill out?
> 
> Yeah that's a logical way to look at it. I mean... you say others have opinions, yet chastise those that have opinions that differ from your's.
> 
> It can't be both ways.


What are you actually disagreeing with me about? Do you even know what my opinion is?

_*Waits for Majortom505 to search for my opinion on this*_

Ok, now that youre back on this page; i havent chastised you for your opinion. I've singled you out for being a whiney little bitch.

Theres a little bubble above my head with an image of you in it, and it looks a little like this. . .


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

The Lone Wolf said:


> What are you actually disagreeing with me about? Do you even know what my opinion is?
> 
> _*Waits for Majortom505 to search for my opinion on this*_
> 
> ...


Wait no longer. You made 4 or 5 posts to this thread and they include these statements.
"Wow, if you cant see the lay and pray in that fight you must have been educated by the Cecil Peoples Circus.
Two good examples off the top of my head; Kos vs Daley, and Sherk vs Florian
Whats happened here is Maia has gotten the takedown he wanted, is rolling with Belfort on the ground which he wants, and Belfort has used defensive wrestling and stalling to get the fight back to his world. That aint fair on Maia. Mazzagatti should ask Maia if he wants the fight standing up - and lets face it, in this situation he may have a better chance of finishing the fight where he is, and he wasnt the one stalling."

Now... I COULD try to read into those posts that you approve of wrestling, but that would be stupid. Just because you didn't come out and say that you want wrestling de-empathized it's hard to see any support for the rules as they stand in these statements. However have it any way you like. Make a statement telling us what your position on this issue is. You cited a fight as LnP that clearly wasn't so it appears that you are prejudiced on the side of limiting wrestling. I wasn't AFRAID to make my feelings known as that is what the forum is about, rather than playing coy and then sniping at those that do have an opinion.

You criticized 3 people that had the opinion that it's a bunch of crap asking for rule changes when they want the changes so that their favs can have a better chance.

Don't worry... I won't give you negative reputation for your disappointing idea that those that want the rules left alone are whinny little bitches, like the AH that gave me neg rep that states this "All that time and nothing pertinent to the thread" he didn't understand the post so he acts like a baby and damages my rep. Immature and whinny to say the least.

-- 
Wisdom exists, it's not commonly found - John Gorka


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> Wait no longer. You made 4 or 5 posts to this thread and they include these statements.
> "Wow, if you cant see the lay and pray in that fight you must have been educated by the Cecil Peoples Circus.
> Two good examples off the top of my head; Kos vs Daley, and Sherk vs Florian
> Whats happened here is Maia has gotten the takedown he wanted, is rolling with Belfort on the ground which he wants, and Belfort has used defensive wrestling and stalling to get the fight back to his world. That aint fair on Maia. Mazzagatti should ask Maia if he wants the fight standing up - and lets face it, in this situation he may have a better chance of finishing the fight where he is, and he wasnt the one stalling."
> ...


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

The Lone Wolf said:


>


Yeah... I thought that would be the best you could do.
And since it is, you ought to stop.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well that looks like some wack clip art to say the least!


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## Lusi (Apr 22, 2007)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> i always thought the answer was actually spending a large amount of time and effort learning sumo or wrestling and perfecting TDD.


Yes, yes, yes! The answer to dominant wrestling is to train wrestling, TDD, or evolve an existing martial art to counter. Save for eye gouges, groin strikes, and the like, the fighting should be as open as possible IMHO.


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## Brainshank (Nov 25, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> I have asked this over and over, perhaps you can give me an answer. What fight, and fighter, LnP's?
> 
> 
> > Shields against Mayhem. I don't think he even threw a punch, and Miller actually did manage to get to his feet a few times. The only action was Mayhem trying to get up, and then Jake stopping him and holding him down. No aggression, no damage, just cuddling.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

Brainshank said:


> Majortom505 said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked this over and over, perhaps you can give me an answer. What fight, and fighter, LnP's?
> ...


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