# Shogun's guard is going to best Jones.



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Watch Shogun's fights with Randleman, Coleman and even BJJ stud Machida. Shogun has one of the most active and superior guards in the sport. People talk about his wrestling and takedown defense, but his ability to sweep is so great that he probably doesn't need to train it that much. He has good takedowns himself.

On top of it, Jones has showed some REALLY, REALLY bad tendencies on the mat. In almost all of his fights, in fact. Rogan admonished him for leaving his hand on the mat in the Vera fight, one of the most fundamental rules in BJJ, and he did it constantly. Matyushenko briefly threatened him with a straight armbar. And even worse, Jones showed a complete inability to control Ryan Bader on the ground, and he could do almost no ground and pound. If he can't ground and pound Shogun, good luck trying to submit him, and in a 5 round fight, I'm willing to bet Shogun catches him with SOMETHING, a strike or sub, before time expires. I'd also wager Jones gasses first.

The only way I see Jones winning this fight is if Shogun has absolutely no cardio and looks horrible from the knee scope.


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## NotDylan (Jul 13, 2009)

I think a sub off his back is the most likely victory scenario for Shogun. And while I've got Jones winning, I don't think the sub is that unlikely. 

As far as a complete inability to control Bader on the ground, lol. He submitted the guy and it didn't exactly come out of nowhere.

He did look sloppy against Vera, though.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Yeah no joke. I don't understand how people think Jones wins this fight.



Shogun has KO'd Overeem, Machida, Coleman, Liddell, Rampage and is a second degree black belt. Not only has he never been stopped by ground and pound (or strikes of any kind), but he's never even been threatened by ground and pound in his entire career.


But Jones is just going to take him down and elbow him. :confused05:


What is Jones? Like a blue belt in BJJ? I can't even find it anywhere online.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

^^^^retarded logic^^^^



Jones is going to destroy him. i hope he doesn't but it's most likely.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

guy incognito said:


> ^^^^retarded logic^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> Jones is going to destroy him. i hope he doesn't but it's most likely.




Usually I'd just ignore you but okay.



How does Jones beat Shogun? And stop pretending to "love Shogun, but..." because it's a fallacy and it's not helping your argument at all.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> ^^^^retarded logic^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> Jones is going to destroy him. i hope he doesn't but it's most likely.


This I'm dying to hear? Win? sure, destroy him? Hahahahahah ******* NO ONE HAVE EVER DESTROYED SHOGUN EVER........Jones has fought a murderers row of Brandon Vera, Vlad and Ryan Bader.......

Yeah that proves Jones has enough to walk through Rua like he's a can.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

ppl are just forgetting just how badass shogun is...the dude was THE #1 LHW in the world at one point, got busted up, came back and beat the machida enigma in the 1st round

his muay thai is probably the second best in all of the UFC and he does have a very active guard while JBJ leaves himself open for many sub attempts, especially because of his wild GnP

does JBJ have a good chance of winning? sure he does, but shogun should take this and im betting on him come fight night!


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Life B Ez said:


> This I'm dying to hear? Win? sure, destroy him? Hahahahahah ******* NO ONE HAVE EVER DESTROYED SHOGUN EVER........Jones has fought a murderers row of Brandon Vera, Vlad and Ryan Bader.......
> 
> Yeah that proves Jones has enough to walk through Rua like he's a can.


No one had ever KO'd Machida.

No one had ever Subbed Bader.

so i guess that means it could never happen........... Oh Wait!

Jones wrestling is going to be too much for shogun.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

ACTAFOOL said:


> his muay thai is probably the second best in all of the UFC and he does have a very active guard while JBJ leaves himself open for many sub attempts, especially because of his wild GnP
> 
> does JBJ have a good chance of winning? sure he does, but shogun should take this and im betting on him come fight night!


Who do you have with better Muay Thai? Anderson?

Way too many If's in this fight for me, usually put something on most of the cards, but have to sit out. Jones might be gassed fighting on short notice, Shogun knee surgery, Jones chin, Shogun's TDD and cardio etc.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

I actually think Shogun will take Jones down or at least reverse/sweep em. 

Hope Jones plays the striking game to test himself.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> No one had ever KO'd Machida.
> 
> No one had ever Subbed Bader.
> 
> ...


Hahahaha and you said someone else had retard logic? Bader had shown weakness on the ground and Machida's style was only considered unbeatable by Zuffa and TUF noobs. He was good but plenty of people were talking and leg kicks and aggressive strikers would be his undoing. 

Shogun however has fought, Randleman, Coleman twice and Arona all who have better wrestling or ground game than Jones. That's a sub and two KO's with a TKO due to a broken arm.

He's also fought Rampage, Liddell, Overeem twice and Lil Nog all who have better striking and more power than Jones. In case you don't know, but I'm sure a "hardcore shogun fan" like yourself does, that's four KOs and a decision in possibly one of the greatest fights ever. Oh and Machida twice, who is faster, better on the ground and has better striking than Jones and arguably better top control and take downs and that's a robbery decision and a 1st round KO.


Now let's look at Jones shall we?

We'll start at Bonnar because that's where most of the hype started.

Since that fight he's got Bonnar, O'brien, Hammil, Vera, Vlad and Bader.

Bader, Vlad and Hammil are the best wrestlers, don't compare to Shoguns list. Not to mention Hammil was hurt early in a fight that was looking close. Vlad was Ko'd by Lil Nog. Bader went to a controversial decision with Lil Nog. 

Bonnar and Vera are the "strikers" a term I use loosely. Bonnar has never been a world beater and Jones slowed down quite a bit in the last round. And Vera well, he's always had an inability to execute on the ground and Jones stood with him for all of ten seconds. 

Oh and Jones has slowed down in all his fights that went the distance and he'll be fighting right off a camp into another on short notice.

And Jones got slightly wobbled when he pulled that jumping knee, that that Ryan Bader easily avoided and landed a right hand on him. If Shogun throws that Jones will be out before he feels the mat again. 

We haven't even talked about speed, the fastest guy Jones has seen is Vera and like I said they stood for 10 seconds. Shogun is the fastest guy at 205.

Now like I've said, Jones can win, but it won't be a one sided beating, Shogun has fought better fighters and never been handled. If Shogun comes in like he did against Forrest Jones may walk away with a win and possibly a sub stoppage. But it won't be a destruction.


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## NotDylan (Jul 13, 2009)

If Jones does win it will only be because Shogun had a bum knee or was rusty, whether it's true or not.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Oh, i just can't wait for this fight. It's funny to read these discussions about the outcome where everybody is more than sure that they are right and their boy is going to dominate. Just like we have seen in the past.


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## tkoshea (Nov 14, 2010)

I am a big fan of both guys, they're two of the most exciting guys out there to watch.

Overall I think Shogun should be a slight favourite, but JOnes' size and strength give him a huge chance to win. It's a great match up and as close to a 50/50 I have seen for a long time, I really find it hard to predict who will win and how.

I just hope the fight lives up to the hype, I would hate it to flop, it needs to win 'fight of the night honours' 

I think maybe I would prefer Shogun to win, it's about time a title holder at 205 stayed champ for a decent period of time (plus I think Jones' time is in the future where as Shogun needs to take advantage of his prime years now)

Personally I hope Shogun wins this, then beats Rashad and hopefully after that a rematch with Rampage. From there on in I would see Jones having grown in stature and be back for a second title shot having beaten the best of the rest (more of an ideal scenerio of me as a UFC fan than a prediction of what will happen)


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

khoveraki said:


> Yeah no joke. I don't understand how people think Jones wins this fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jones is a natural, once he gets Shogun down belts and colors are not going to mean sh1t, I just don't think that Shogun thanks to all the injuries that have kept him out the sport over the last 3 or 4 years is going to what it takes to handle the power of Jones, I doubt he could even handle Rash or Bader these days never mind Jones.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

> Life B Ez said:
> 
> 
> > Hahahaha and you said someone else had retard logic? Bader had shown weakness on the ground and Machida's style was only considered unbeatable by Zuffa and TUF noobs. He was good but plenty of people were talking and leg kicks and aggressive strikers would be his undoing.
> ...


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

How any one can say with confidence "this guy is going to definitely win" or "I dont see why people think this guy can win" is beyond me. This fight is about as 50/50 as it gets. To me, this is a super fight. Shogun is the toughest guy Jones has had to face by far and Jon Jones is the toughest guy Shogun has had to face (yes i'm going to call it now, jones is better than lil nog, randleman, arona, rampage and a LHW overeem), the kid is an absolute freak of nature and a prodigy. He would wipe the floor with all of the opponents shogun has faced, just like rua did.

This fight all boils down to Jones top game vs Shoguns guard. Which one will prevail? I still cant make my mind up.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> How any one can say with confidence "this guy is going to definitely win" or "I dont see why people think this guy can win" is beyond me. This fight is about as 50/50 as it gets. To me, this is a super fight. Shogun is the toughest guy Jones has had to face by far and Jon Jones is the toughest guy Shogun has had to face (yes i'm going to call it now, jones is better than lil nog, randleman, arona, rampage and a LHW overeem), the kid is an absolute freak of nature and a prodigy. He would wipe the floor with all of the opponents shogun has faced, just like rua did.
> 
> This fight all boils down to Jones top game vs Shoguns guard. Which one will prevail? I still cant make my mind up.


Yup. Exactly this.

Every time by brain tries to be a bit daring and make a prediction, the other half calls me an idiot and points out lots of opposing shit.

I am not putting money on this fight. Credits maybe... but my wallet is staying shut.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Soojooko said:


> Yup. Exactly this.
> 
> *Every time by brain tries to be a bit daring and make a prediction, the other half calls me an idiot and points out lots of opposing shit.*
> 
> I am not putting money on this fight. Credits maybe... but my wallet is staying shut.


ha ha, exactly the same for me. It's almost impossible to call.


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## FattyGottedHigh (Feb 18, 2011)

I love how Shogun is so obviously superior on the ground when correct me if I'm wrong, but he had the submission of the year dropped on him by Forrest Griffin. 

I love Shogun, and I think he's probably going to win this fight, but it's not going to be an easy, or guaranteed thing for him. Jones is a beast, a physical freak, and his build allows him to do many things that other fighters simply can not. His reach is going to be a bridge for Shogun to cross all in itself, in the clinch Jones will probably be able to throw him down time and time again, and the ground and pound of Jones is devastating.

The length of his arms enable Jones to pursue chokes in odd angles, and that's something Shogun wont be able to train defense against. And, as was the case in the Vera bout, it takes only ONE elbow from Jones to alter the state of a fight. Just ONE slight error on Shogun's part, allowing nothing more than that single strike, could be the loss of the fight for him. Leaving his opposition such little room for error is what brought Jones to this title shot. 

I still see Shogun winning by either KO/TKO because of his advantage in the standup game(Jones standup outside of his jab is largely untested, though working with Jackson he probably has more than he's shown), but to denounce Jones so easily is foolish. If Shogun thinks as the OP does and doesn't treat Jones as a legit threat, he will lose.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> ha ha, exactly the same for me. It's almost impossible to call.


One things for sure... this is a loin quiveringly good match up. Only the most miserable of trolls would not be interested in this glorious prospect.

Please dont be rubbish. Pleeeeeeeeease.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Soojooko said:


> One things for sure... this is a loin quiveringly good match up. Only the most miserable of trolls would not be interested in this glorious prospect.
> 
> Please dont be rubbish. Pleeeeeeeeease.


LOL.

I just cant see how this fight will end up being boring. I've yet to see Shogun in a single boring fight and the most boring fight Jones has been in was Ryan Bader (I know, it wasn't even boring). 

Shoguns berserker aggression and Jones just being Jones should make for a FOTY candidate. Damn, I can't wait.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Jones is nowhere near ready for this fight.

Lets compare statistics first.

*Jon Jones*
13 Fights
12-1 (1 loss by DQ after beating Hamill)
7 (T)KO's, 3 Subs, 2 Decisions

Notable Victories: Ryan Bader, Brandon Vera, Vladimir Matyushenko, Stephan Bonnar

*Shogun Rua*
23 Fights
19-4
16 (T)KO's, 1 Sub, 2 Decisions

Notable Victories: Lyoto Machida, Chuck Liddell, Alistair Overeem x2, Antônio Rogério Nogueira, Rampage Jackson, Ricardo Arona

2005 PRIDe MW GP Champion, UFC LHW Champion

Now, this does not mean Jones is entirely outmatched, but looking at what he has accomplished thus far, he is WAY off on paper.

Now, looking at their styles, it is a bit more interesting, but still leans in favor of Shogun. 

*Striking*

Jones is not a bad striker by any means but he also isn't as good as some believe him to be. His flashy unorthodox strikes work against lower level opponents but against strikers like Vera, Jones took the fight straight to the ground. 

Shogun on the other hand is an extremely versatile and powerful striker. If Jones stands, he will lose this fight 9/10 times.

*Ground*

Jones' wrestling is awesome. The question will be is it good enough to takedown Shogun. I believe it is but then what happens when it gets to the ground? Shogun is a master at sweeping opponents. If Jones gets swepped, Shogun is going to hurt him badly.

All in all, this is a somewhat interesting fight, but I don't think Jones is ready yet. I would much rather see him fight an actual contender first.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

HitOrGetHit said:


> All in all, this is a somewhat interesting fight, but I don't think Jones is ready yet. I would much rather see him fight an actual contender first.


Having said that, who would you rather face Rua next? Even though I agree with your post mostly, I still struggle to think of a LHW belt match-up that would interest me more.


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## f4rtknock3r (Nov 22, 2010)

I see it already, Jones nut huggers already have excuses lined up if he loses. If jones gasses out it is not because he took the fight on "short-notice" it is because he could not keep up with shogun.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Soojooko said:


> Having said that, who would you rather face Rua next? Even though I agree with your post mostly, I still struggle to think of a LHW belt match-up that would interest me more.


I wouldn't mind seeing a rematch against Griffin or Rampage.


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## tkoshea (Nov 14, 2010)

HitOrGetHit said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing a rematch against Griffin or Rampage.


certainly rampage, Griffin would need to do a little more to deserve a title shot at this time though (beat Machida, Evans or Jones himself perhaps)

Obviously Rashad would be next in line, beyond that maybe Jones would fight Rampage to determine who gets the next shot (depending on the manner of Jones' defeat hypothetically assuming he lost)

If Machida gets past Couture a good fight for him would be Griffin or Bader, the winner of that fight going to the stage before a title shot needed to defeat one of the current main contenders.

I think LHW is the most talent rich and exciting division in the UFC and there are a good manner fights I would happily pay to see.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

tkoshea said:


> certainly rampage, Griffin would need to do a little more to deserve a title shot at this time though (beat Machida, Evans or Jones himself perhaps)
> 
> Obviously Rashad would be next in line, beyond that maybe Jones would fight Rampage to determine who gets the next shot (depending on the manner of Jones' defeat hypothetically assuming he lost)
> 
> ...


But Jones doesn't really deserve one either. His best wins are Vera and Bader.


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## tkoshea (Nov 14, 2010)

HitOrGetHit said:


> But Jones doesn't really deserve one either. His best wins are Vera and Bader.


I don't think many people can argue with Jones getting the title shot though based on the timing of it really.

Rashad pulled out and they needed a challenger suitable to step in at that short notice. Who could be consider above Jones in that respect?

Rampage would be an obvious choice having just beat Machida, other than that you are looking at people who are coming off loses or have not been in or around title contention for some time.

I think it was fair to say (if Rampage was not being offered or declining the shot) the winner of the Bader/Jones fight steps into Rashads shoes....more because they are the up and comers making waves in the division so it has the romance of a young Tyson cleaning up the heavyweight boxing world in the 80s.

To be fair, I guess Forest has had back to back wins and holds a win over the current champ so I can see your argument that he would deserve the shot as much as Jones, but I think the fact Jones is unproven and up and coming (undefeated aside from a dq) makes him the more viable and more marketable option at this time.


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## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

f4rtknock3r said:


> I see it already, Jones nut huggers already have excuses lined up if he loses. If jones gasses out it is not because he took the fight on "short-notice" it is because he could not keep up with shogun.


And I suppose Shogun fans don't? I can see it already, 'knee surgeries' ,'hasn't fought in a year', 'you see what happens when Shogun is 100%'.

Listen, I don't know what's going to happen in this fight. I think the people discrediting Jones should give their head a shake though. You don't destroy grown men, who train all day, everyday in fighting, and still have the stigma of being 'unproven', 'not the real deal' yet.

This is good fight coming up, a worthwhile fight, it reminds me of the beef some people had with Chael Sonnen and his contendership right after he beat Marquadt. It is an interesting match up because, like Anderson Silva, Shogun will likely have to rely on his secondary strengths (his BJJ) in order to win this fight.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Well you know the matchmakers have done a good job when opinions are this polarized; both sides of the arguement have the other being "destroyed" lol. 

Personally I think it is going to be a very close fight, I could even see it getting into the championship rounds. 

That being said I think it is going to come down to whether or not Shogun is properly conditioned and healthy.




tkoshea said:


> I am a big fan of both guys, they're two of the most exciting guys out there to watch.
> 
> Overall I think Shogun should be a slight favourite, but JOnes' size and strength give him a huge chance to win. It's a great match up and as close to a 50/50 I have seen for a long time, I really find it hard to predict who will win and how.
> 
> ...


I like this and also hope this happens lol!


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

HitOrGetHit said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing a rematch against Griffin or Rampage.


Admittedly, both tasty match-ups.

But, if I had the choice, I would still go with Bones if I'm honest.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Soojooko said:


> Admittedly, both tasty match-ups.
> 
> But, if I had the choice, I would still go with Bones if I'm honest.


Bones is still unproven for the most part. He has looked very dominant but against nobody close to the title, let alone Shogun status. I would be mor einterested had Bones dominated someone like Rampage or Machida. THEN I would believe the hype.

I would love to see Bones/Griffin, Shogun/Rampage, Machida/Couture. Winner of Bones/Griffin fights winner of Machida/Couture. Winner of Shogun/Rampage fights Rashad. Then the winner of those 2 fights gets it on!

This ensures that there is a clear contender and Bones has actually faced top competition.


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

Only thing preventing me from loading up on Shogun as a near 2:1 underdog is concerns with ring rust and how well his injury has healed.

Though, I've maintained all along (and agree with the spirit of this topic) that Jones top game is loose as heck and if he plays around in Shogun's guard, he'll live to regret it.

Then again, all it takes are a few of his pointy a$$ elbows driving into an opponent's face to end a fight...

Yeah, so needless to say, I'm amped for this one.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

jones has real weak standup and shogun has the second best striking in the UFC as well as an excellent ground game and an amazing sweep. The only chance Jones has is if Shogun is seriously injured, some people are just delusional.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> Where did bader show weakness on the ground? and it's not retarded logic. shoguns always had weak TDD.
> 
> This is the dumbest argument. "He fought randleman and Coleman" first fight against coleman ended in a freak accident and then in the second fight they both showed up in horrible condition stupid fights to use in arguement that shogun can deal with wrestlers.....and arona? he would get wrestle fucked by Rashad,Bader and Jones. not to mention he fought shogun after grappling with wanderlei for practically the entire fight so obviously he isn't gonna be the dangerous grappler he is after.(shogun still would have won though)
> 
> ...


I give up, anyone who says Bader an unproven prospect is better then Coleman and Randleman is either a hopeless troll or a TUF noob.


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Dude... Is Shoguns guard rlly good?

I missed the fight where Forrest submitted him.

Unfortunately, never got to see how good his guard was.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Yeah, I'm not sure what Ryan Bader has ever done to be held in such reverence. Except beat a faded legend that nearly lost to Jason Brilz the fight prior.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure what Ryan Bader has ever done to be held in such reverence. Except beat a faded legend that nearly lost to Jason Brilz the fight prior.




Yeah seriously, Bader struggled with Jardine and looked really sloppy. I hate Jones and I bet every cred I had on him that night, Bader really sucks and I can't picture him beating anyone relevant at LHW.


I was 100% sure he lost to Lil Nog 2 rounds to 1.


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## Rusko (Feb 4, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> How any one can say with confidence "this guy is going to definitely win" or "I dont see why people think this guy can win" is beyond me. This fight is about as 50/50 as it gets. To me, this is a super fight. Shogun is the toughest guy Jones has had to face by far and *Jon Jones is the toughest guy Shogun has had to face (yes i'm going to call it now, jones is better than lil nog, randleman, arona, rampage and a LHW overeem)*, the kid is an absolute freak of nature and a prodigy. He would wipe the floor with all of the opponents shogun has faced, just like rua did.
> 
> This fight all boils down to Jones top game vs Shoguns guard. Which one will prevail? I still cant make my mind up.





Mckeever said:


> How any one can say with confidence "this guy is going to definitely win" or "I dont see why people think this guy can win" is beyond me.


People like you?


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Rusko said:


> How any one can say with confidence "this guy is going to definitely win" or "I dont see why people think this guy can win" is beyond me.


???? I was referring to shogun vs jones specifically. 

Not Jones vs Arona, rampage, randleman, lil nog etc etc or MMA match ups in general. 

I'd bet money on Jones smashing all of those dudes up pretty bad.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> Yeah seriously, Bader struggled with Jardine and looked really sloppy. I hate Jones and I bet every cred I had on him that night, Bader really sucks and I can't picture him beating anyone relevant at LHW.
> 
> 
> I was 100% sure he lost to Lil Nog 2 rounds to 1.


Bader won that fight easily, but doesn't say much.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> ???? I was referring to shogun vs jones specifically.
> 
> Not Jones vs Arona, rampage, randleman, lil nog etc etc or MMA match ups in general.
> 
> I'd bet money on Jones smashing all of those dudes up pretty bad.


Jones would thrash Randleman, lil nog and Arona, it'd be interesting to see Jones v Rampage. A motivated Rampage, not one coming off a huge break and a movie is a dangerous guy.


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## Rusko (Feb 4, 2010)

look how easy he got up after machida took him down using his bjj

how he immediately went for the leg in chuck fight

and sub against randleman

just few examples


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

khoveraki said:


> Yeah no joke. I don't understand how people think Jones wins this fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sig Bet ? 2 weeks i have Jones.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> Watch Shogun's fights with Randleman, Coleman and even BJJ stud Machida. Shogun has one of the most active and superior guards in the sport. People talk about his wrestling and takedown defense, but his ability to sweep is so great that he probably doesn't need to train it that much. He has good takedowns himself.
> 
> On top of it, Jones has showed some REALLY, REALLY bad tendencies on the mat. In almost all of his fights, in fact. Rogan admonished him for leaving his hand on the mat in the Vera fight, one of the most fundamental rules in BJJ, and he did it constantly. Matyushenko briefly threatened him with a straight armbar. And even worse, Jones showed a complete inability to control Ryan Bader on the ground, and he could do almost no ground and pound. If he can't ground and pound Shogun, good luck trying to submit him, and in a 5 round fight, I'm willing to bet Shogun catches him with SOMETHING, a strike or sub, before time expires. I'd also wager Jones gasses first.
> 
> The only way I see Jones winning this fight is if Shogun has absolutely no cardio and looks horrible from the knee scope.


I see this fight with JBJ winding up in Shogun's guard; but the guys you mention - Randleman, Coleman, Machida - are relatively short armed guys and JBJ is a whole different deal altogether. I haven't seen JBJ fight enough to see if he leaves himself open to subs, which Shogun could exploit, but I have JBJ winning.


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## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

mastodon2222 said:


> I see this fight with JBJ winding up in Shogun's guard; but the guys you mention - Randleman, Coleman, Machida - are relatively short armed guys and JBJ is a whole different deal altogether. I haven't seen JBJ fight enough to see if he leaves himself open to subs, which Shogun could exploit, but I have JBJ winning.


Honestly I think that it will be really hard for JBJ to win, the reason being that he probably won't KO Shogun and it seems impossible for him to submit Shogun. So JBJ has to go 5 rounds against a guy you can't screw up against. I doubt JBJ can fight 5 rounds nearly perfectly with absolutely no mistakes or atleast big ones. Eventually he will make a mistake and Shogun is not one who doesn't capitalize on opportunity. Most likely he will and I expect probably 3rd round, JBJ takes down Shogun, Shogun sweeps and Shogun submits JBJ. 

But the thing is there are too many unknowns going into this fight. How good is JBJ's cardio, how good is he off his back, will he go for submissions during the fight, how good is Shogun's knee, how good will he be coming off such a severe injury.

All those factors can change the entire portion of the fight, and I think that this fight mainly depends on the fighting condition of both Shogun and JBJ.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> Yeah no joke. I don't understand how people think Jones wins this fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats the sexy part of it, you guys are right and Shogun on paper should **** Jon Jones, but when fight night comes and JBJ beats Shogun, its not going to matter


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Machida Karate said:


> Thats the sexy part of it, you guys are right and Shogun on paper should **** Jon Jones, but when fight night comes and JBJ beats Shogun, its not going to matter


The same way Machida beat him?


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

mastodon2222 said:


> I see this fight with JBJ winding up in Shogun's guard; but the guys you mention - Randleman, Coleman, Machida - are relatively short armed guys and JBJ is a whole different deal altogether. *I haven't seen JBJ fight enough to see if he leaves himself open to subs*, which Shogun could exploit, but I have JBJ winning.


Jones doesn't just leave himself open to subs...

He makes press announcements, sends out evites, gift wraps his arms in festive wrapping paper, and practically begs to get sub'd. But his g n' p is so devastating at the same time, he hasn't gotten caught. It will take perfect timing from a high level practicioner to catch him. Shogun may be the guy... who knows.

ps. Watch the Vera fight, you'll see what I mean. Vera is surreptitiously looking to go for an armbar. Though, he loses his train of thought when his brain gets bashed in.


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## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> The same way Machida beat him?


Machida was a better match-up for Shogun than Jones. Machida is a precision counter striker against aggressive fighters like Shogun. Machida has great takedowns and he has strong BJJ, definitely much better on the ground than Jones. Yet, people expect him to lose against Jones. Jones is going to get picked apart in the stand-up, unless Jones is perfect on the ground, Shogun is going to submit him. 

Like I said, if Shogun is 100% and his knee is in good condition like in the Machida fights, then Jones is going to get ripped no doubt about it. No matter how good Jones gets.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

I would have had more doubts about Jones going into this fight, had he not completely controlled Bader at his own game. I, to this day haven't seen a weakness in Jones. I'm not calling this fight, since Shogun is a well versed fighter, but i'm saying it's his toughest fight to date (recent injuries etc). I will say Shogun won't win a decision, he has to finish it, because Jones is to powerful to control for 3 rounds, let alone 5.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

SigFig said:


> Jones doesn't just leave himself open to subs...
> 
> He makes press announcements, sends out evites, gift wraps his arms in festive wrapping paper, and practically begs to get sub'd. But his g n' p is so devastating at the same time, he hasn't gotten caught. It will take perfect timing from a high level practicioner to catch him. Shogun may be the guy... who knows.
> 
> ps. Watch the Vera fight, you'll see what I mean. Vera is surreptitiously looking to go for an armbar. Though, he loses his train of thought when his brain gets bashed in.


Vera also has mediocre BJJ and an inactive guard. Look at what Thiago did to him. Dominated him positionally.

Jones on the other hand, allowed Vera to escape to standing and get back to guard once he took him down into halfguard.

Shogun's is one of the most active you'll ever see.

The fact that he easily got BJJ stud Machida off of him with kneebar escapes and the sort is still one of the more impressive displays of skill I've seen in the octagon.

If Jones couldn't handle Vera on the mat he hasn't a shot against Shogun. Basically breaking his eye with an elbow is the only shot he has, because he's not KOing him. Good luck with breaking an orbital though.


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Vera also has mediocre BJJ and an inactive guard.
> 
> Shogun's is one of the most active you'll ever see.
> 
> The fact that he easily got BJJ stud Machida off of him with kneebar escapes and the sort is still one of the more impressive displays of skill I've seen in the octagon.


I don't disagree. Shogun may just be that high level of a guy to finally accept Bones' invitations...


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## DragonStriker (Feb 11, 2009)

Should be interesting to see how Jones can handle Shogun and if he can really beat him cause if he does that will be insane.


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## yogibear (Feb 16, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> No one had ever KO'd Machida.
> 
> No one had ever Subbed Bader.
> 
> ...


we can all agree that this guy is a ******* idiot cause when shogun was Jones age he did 2 times more if not more than what Jones and Bader did together in their entire career together. So a win off Bader means nothing cause he has yet to prove him self in the octagon in the first place.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

box said:


> I would have had more doubts about Jones going into this fight, had he not completely controlled Bader at his own game. I, to this day haven't seen a weakness in Jones. I'm not calling this fight, since Shogun is a well versed fighter, but i'm saying it's his toughest fight to date (recent injuries etc). I will say Shogun won't win a decision, he has to finish it, because Jones is to powerful to control for 3 rounds, let alone 5.


The man has only fought wrestlers and he beat them off stuffed take downs, Shogun is not going to shoot on Jones.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Jones had to have gotten them to the ground somehow. If I remember, he threw a few of those grown men like ragdolls. I don't see why it's a surprise people think Jones can win. Jones is alittle smarter than to stand there and get KO'd, he'll probably clinch and toss Shogun down, then we'll see what happens.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Life B Ez said:


> I give up, anyone who says Bader an unproven prospect is better then Coleman and Randleman is either a hopeless troll or a TUF noob.


Your living in the past bud. how embarrising:laugh:


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## c-dub (Nov 18, 2010)

Shogun has a great guard and the fact that he is a high level BJJ practitioner will give Jones a huge problem. I'm basing that off the fact that Jones is a wrestler and wrestlers UNLESS they train in BJJ a lot are very succeptible to subs that BJJ brings to the table. (Ala Silva > Sonnen). Jones is raw talent and power IMO, that might be enough..But I'm going with Shogun the vet on this one.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

A healthy shogun destroys Jones, makes him look like an amateur. This is similar in skill to the velasquez vs. lesnar fight, anyone who knows mma knows this. Jones is good, but Shogun is the second best in the UFC as far as overall skill level, when he is healthy. Jones has hype, but when you look at the skills and not the man, he has some massive holes in his game that you just can't have against a guy like Shogun, he will take advantage of them.


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## Steroid Steve (Oct 1, 2010)

Jones is too long and big to be affected by Shogun's guard. 

Maybe if Shogun could use his lethal soccer kicks, I'd probably give him the advantage over Jones. :sarcastic12:


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Steroid Steve said:


> Jones is too long and big to be affected by Shogun's guard.


Maybe this is just me, but I see that length hurting Jones on the ground. I've always found it easier to tap guys(in the gym) that have longer arms, much less knuckle dragger arms (not an insult, they are just huge) like Jones has.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

guys that saying his freakish body is going to be a big advantage should remember 3 things

1: the longer your limbs are, the easier it is to lock in a sub in BJJ

2: this fight will go to the ground

3: JBJ does leave himself open with his GnP

the problem is his GnP is so ruthless that he could rock shogun and finish the fight, but thats why fitch and GSP dont really use GnP like that, yes its effective in terms of damage, but its risky, you can get caught if you are fighting a high level BJJ guy

sonnen gets caught so much because of this, his GnP style makes it easy to attempt a sub, he doesnt just press down on his opponent and hit them with short elbows and hammerfists

and JBJ has really long arms so im not even sure he can strike from a short distance on the ground, i think he needs to create that space, that dangerous space where he can get subbed or sweeped

im not saying its a lock for shogun, but JBJ has many wholes in his game right now in the ground and standing

they are things he will change later on in the game...or maybe his submission defense is getting really good by now, we dont know! but it will be an interesting fight

if shogun is healthy it should be aweomse!

also...if JBJ had faced some1 with elite BJJ, like maia, before this fight, he wouldnt be fighting for the title...i bet an elite bjj guy would have subbed him already


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Shogun shouldn't fight if he's not healthy, so that shouldn't even be a question from here on out.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

box said:


> Shogun shouldn't fight if he's not healthy, so that shouldn't even be a question from here on out.


its not that he wont be healthy, but the knee could have affected his training, thats why his other 2 fights after the surgery he gassed so bad, compare the shogun vs forrest to shogun vs machida

2 different animals


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

ACTAFOOL said:


> its not that he wont be healthy, but the knee could have affected his training, thats why his other 2 fights after the surgery he gassed so bad, compare the shogun vs forrest to shogun vs machida
> 
> 2 different animals


Yes he was coming off surgery, but you're leaving out the fact that Machida Shogun I, was all striking and standing. Forrest Shogun was constant grappling and ground fighting. I don't doubt the knee surgery affected him a lot, but there are two different fights.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

Life B Ez said:


> Yes he was coming off surgery, but you're leaving out the fact that Machida Shogun I, was all striking and standing. Forrest Shogun was constant grappling and ground fighting. I don't doubt the knee surgery affected him a lot, but there are two different fights.


that is true:thumbsup:...well this fight will be great to find out many things from both of them!


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Life B Ez said:


> Yes he was coming off surgery, but you're leaving out the fact that Machida Shogun I, was all striking and standing. Forrest Shogun was constant grappling and ground fighting. I don't doubt the knee surgery affected him a lot, but there are two different fights.


Shogun wasn't coming off surgery in the Forrest fight. Not sure why this is such a huge misconception.

He injured a ligament in his knee during training for the fight, had a shit camp, then during the fight re-aggravated the injury and basically completely tore a ligament in his knee. After the fight he had knee reconstruction and then the huge layoff. Then he fought Coleman and had crap cardio. He looked much better than after that.


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

Steroid Steve said:


> Jones is too long and big to be affected by Shogun's guard.
> 
> Maybe if Shogun could use his lethal soccer kicks, I'd probably give him the advantage over Jones. :sarcastic12:


:confused05:

Many would beg to differ... as eloquently covered by ACTAFOOL.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Shogun would have sweeped Rashad every time but i seriously doubt he can do it to jones.


Someone with size and skill is very hard to overcome.


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## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> Shogun would have sweeped Rashad every time but i seriously doubt he can do it to jones.
> 
> 
> Someone with size and skill is very hard to overcome.


Seriously that makes no sense, Jones is a white belt BJJ practioner and Rashad is a black belt BJJ practioner. How is it that Shogun would have swept Rashad but he can't do it to Jones. The logic of some people.

Size makes a difference but at the same time it, doesn't make a white belt better than a black belt in BJJ. An undersized Welterweight, BJ Penn can take down and get the back of a fighter who could easily be a middleweight, Jon Fitch. Size makes a difference however, it does not make a guy who has been BJJ for what 2 years, better than a guy like Rashad who has been doing BJJ for 7 years and is also a Black Belt in BJJ.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

ballers101 said:


> Seriously that makes no sense, Jones is a white belt BJJ practioner and Rashad is a "black belt" BJJ practioner. How is it that Shogun would have swept Rashad but he can't do it to Jones. The logic of some people.
> 
> Size makes a difference but at the same time it, doesn't make a white belt better than a black belt in BJJ. An undersized Welterweight, BJ Penn can take down and get the back of a fighter who could easily be a middleweight, Jon Fitch. Size makes a difference however, it does not make a guy who has been BJJ for what 2 years, better than a guy like Rashad who has been doing BJJ for 7 years and is also a "Black Belt" in BJJ.


Fixed.


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## Steroid Steve (Oct 1, 2010)

SigFig said:


> :confused05:
> 
> Many would beg to differ... as eloquently covered by ACTAFOOL.


We'll see how much size matters on the ground come fight night.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

ballers101 said:


> Seriously that makes no sense, Jones is a white belt BJJ practioner and Rashad is a black belt BJJ practioner. How is it that Shogun would have swept Rashad but he can't do it to Jones. The logic of some people.
> 
> Size makes a difference but at the same time it, doesn't make a white belt better than a black belt in BJJ. An undersized Welterweight, BJ Penn can take down and get the back of a fighter who could easily be a middleweight, Jon Fitch. Size makes a difference however, it does not make a guy who has been BJJ for what 2 years, better than a guy like Rashad who has been doing BJJ for 7 years and is also a Black Belt in BJJ.


Rashad doesn't have the top game that jones has and it's as simple as that. shoguns Blackbelt isn't going to diminish Jones strength and wrestling skill at all.


BJ took jon fitch down because of his wrestling, he took his back because of his BJJ.


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## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> Rashad doesn't have the top game that jones has and it's as simple as that. shoguns Blackbelt isn't going to diminish Jones strength and wrestling skill at all.
> 
> 
> BJ took jon fitch down because of his wrestling, he took his back because of his BJJ.


You don't understand something, really who has better BJJ, Jon Jones or Rashad Evans...am I correct? To sweep someone it's all about opportunity and your ability to take that opportunity quickly. Who would have more holes in their BJJ, Jones or Rashad...Jones. Jones would give more opportunity for a sweep, yet he won't get sweep. I don't understand that at all. The point was strength gives you an advantage, but it doesn't however overcome skill. 

Who has Jones faced with the BJJ skill as a fighter like Forrest Griffin. Griffin who is an underrated BJJ fighter and is good off his back. Jones faced Bonnar and what happened, Jones took down Bonnar and really there was never a point where Jones took down Bonnar and just ground and pounded the hell out of him. Bonnar was really good at getting back to his feet whereas against Rashad, he couldn't get back to his feet because Rashad controlled him on the ground. 

The Bonnar fight also shows that Jones isn't the greatest at controlling guys on the ground, he has controlled a lot of wrestlers like Hamil, Bader, Matyushenko, Jake O'Brien. I never doubted Jone's wrestling, he's a great wrestler however, his control on the ground is highly overrated. He couldn't control Bonnar on the ground how can he control a guy who is even more active on the ground in Shogun.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

> ballers101 said:
> 
> 
> > You don't understand something, really who has better BJJ, Jon Jones or Rashad Evans...am I correct? To sweep someone it's all about opportunity and your ability to take that opportunity quickly. Who would have more holes in their BJJ, Jones or Rashad...Jones. Jones would give more opportunity for a sweep, yet he won't get sweep. I don't understand that at all. The point was strength gives you an advantage, but it doesn't however overcome skill.
> ...


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

We should setup some interesting bets for this fight. Someone should start up a thread in the bets section.


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## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> > Sig bet. i bet you shogun will get shut down by jones wrestling and strength and be unable to sweep or set up a effective offense off of his back
> >
> > I mentioned the Bonnar fight in regards to Jones fight with Bader and it didn't prove much as Jones has improved immensely since then.
> 
> ...


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Jones couldn't even really control Bader either.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Really? I didn't see a glimmer of hope for Bader in that whole fight.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

ballers101 said:


> guy incognito said:
> 
> 
> > I agree to the bet and I agree yes Jones has improved however, at the same time Bader doesn't fight off of his back and he isn't used to it. He's a wrestler not a BJJ fighter. If Jones faced a fighter like Lil Nog and he absolutely dominated him on the ground. I wouldn't be having this conversation with you, I would think that Jones would be the favorite as well.
> ...


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

Steroid Steve said:


> We'll see how much size matters on the ground come fight night.


Why wait? 

I'm sure that Hong Man Choi, Semmy Schilt and Bob Sapp would tell you how great it is to have long limbs when defending subs...


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## Steroid Steve (Oct 1, 2010)

SigFig said:


> Why wait?
> 
> I'm sure that Hong Man Choi, Semmy Schilt and Bob Sapp would tell you how great it is to have long limbs when defending subs...


We're talking about Jones and Shogun here. Who cares what those other guys have done. It would not be out of the ordinary if Jones' size and unordinary strength makes a difference in this fight, especially on the ground. Even though Rua is a great BJJ guy, it's not like he makes a living off subbing people left and right. Like I said, I'd rather wait and see what happens in the fight rather than using MMA math to figure out what would, supposedly, logically happen.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

Steroid Steve said:


> We're talking about Jones and Shogun here. Who cares what those other guys have done. It would not be out of the ordinary if Jones' size and unordinary strength makes a difference in this fight, especially on the ground. Even though Rua is a great BJJ guy, it's not like he makes a living off subbing people left and right. Like I said, I'd rather wait and see what happens in the fight rather than using MMA math to figure out what would, supposedly, logically happen.


well isnt that the point of a MMA forum?:confused02:


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

ACTAFOOL said:


> well isnt that the point of a MMA forum?:confused02:


This....the whole point is to talk about what you think will happen, then discuss what happens. 

We should just wait? Not try to talk about what might happen.....yeah sure :sarcastic12:


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

Steroid Steve said:


> We're talking about Jones and Shogun here. Who cares what those other guys have done. It would not be out of the ordinary if Jones' size and unordinary strength makes a difference in this fight, especially on the ground. Even though Rua is a great BJJ guy, it's not like he makes a living off subbing people left and right. Like I said, I'd rather wait and see what happens in the fight rather than using MMA math to figure out what would, supposedly, logically happen.


Don't get me wrong, I think JBJ has an excellent chance in the fight...

It's your comment about long limbs being advantageous in sub defense that had me LOL'ing. I'm not using mma math in an attempt to extrapolate an outcome for Jones - Rua. I'm speaking in general terms -- Some of the largest and longest limbed mma fighters have shown vulnerabilities to subs.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Long limbs are great for offensive BJJ. I dunno about defending. I would imagine the perfect body for defending submissions is the Paul Harris prototype.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Or Sherk.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Jones couldn't even really control Bader either.


He pretty much man handled Bader on the ground to be fair.


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## c-dub (Nov 18, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> He pretty much man handled Bader on the ground to be fair.



THIS, seriously at one point at the beginning of the fight during the first takedown, bader had a hold of Jones neck a little bit, but Jones literally balled him up...that's pwnage right there IMO. It's not a sub or anything that would win a fight but it is just such a sign of ground dominance IMO. Will that happen to Shogun? I don't think so, just saying though.:confused02:


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## Steroid Steve (Oct 1, 2010)

SigFig said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think JBJ has an excellent chance in the fight...
> 
> It's your comment about long limbs being advantageous in sub defense that had me LOL'ing. I'm not using mma math in an attempt to extrapolate an outcome for Jones - Rua. I'm speaking in general terms -- Some of the largest and longest limbed mma fighters have shown vulnerabilities to subs.


I don't ever recall saying that long limbs is advantageous in defending against bjj. I did say Jones' size and length could be too much for Rua, which very well could be the case when he gets on top and starts throwing rangy elbows. This is a mma match, not a bjj match. If Jones somehow gets caught on the ground, then ill say I was wrong.


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

Steroid Steve said:


> I don't ever recall saying that long limbs is advantageous in defending against bjj. I did say Jones' size and length could be too much for Rua, which very well could be the case when he gets on top and starts throwing rangy elbows. This is a mma match, not a bjj match. If Jones somehow gets caught on the ground, then ill say I was wrong.


Word. 

I guess I misinterpreted this: "Jones is too long and big to be affected by Shogun's guard." Thought you meant his length would be advantageous in his guard. My bad.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> He pretty much man handled Bader on the ground to be fair.


Utter bullshit.

He couldn't at all get Bader flat on his back to land ANY damage, he did almost zero the entire fight, basically relegated to throwing a few shots to the body because he couldn't control his posture. Second, Bader swept to standing using the fence in the 1st round. 

Jones was fortunate Bader was leaving his neck out trying to prevent ground and pound, or else that would've been a boring decision win. It was a rookie mistake by a fish out of water, and one that Shogun certainly won't make.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> Utter bullshit.
> 
> He couldn't at all get Bader flat on his back to land ANY damage, he did almost zero the entire fight, basically relegated to throwing a few shots to the body because he couldn't control his posture. Second, Bader swept to standing using the fence in the 1st round.
> 
> Jones was fortunate Bader was leaving his neck out trying to prevent ground and pound, or else that would've been a boring decision win. It was a rookie mistake by a fish out of water, and one that Shogun certainly won't make.


I think the truth is somewhere in between there. Jones was handling Bader but he wasn't really dominating him on the mat either.

Everyone is making too big a deal out of how Jones did with Bader though. Jones put Bader on the mat pretty much exclusively off stuffing a shot from Bader. If Shogun shoots a double on Jones I will be shocked.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Utter bullshit.
> 
> He couldn't at all get Bader flat on his back to land ANY damage, he did almost zero the entire fight, basically relegated to throwing a few shots to the body because he couldn't control his posture. Second, Bader swept to standing using the fence in the 1st round.
> 
> Jones was fortunate Bader was leaving his neck out trying to prevent ground and pound, or else that would've been a boring decision win. It was a rookie mistake by a fish out of water, and one that Shogun certainly won't make.


Utter bullshit? You need your eyes testing son. What about where he had Bader flat on his back in round 1 where Jones was in North South position and had him in some strange choke hold?

Ok, he didnt land any real GNP or get to full mount, but he completely controlled and shut down Bader on the ground. He controlled him effortlessly for most of the fight, at least thats what it looked like.

Ifs, whats and buts, none of that matters. Bader was finished and choked out in round 2 and it wasnt a boring decision win.

I wasn't arguing whether or not Shogun would make the same mistakes as Bader on the ground, just disputing that Jones pretty much controlled Bader rather effortlessly on the ground.

Will he do the same to Shogun? No, I certainly don't think so.

@LifeBeez. Watch it again. In round 1 Jones takes down Bader with a shooting double leg take down, WITH EASE. What are you trying to say any way? Bones is only going to be able to take Shogun down if Rua shoots in for a take down and stuffs it?

Jones has the majority of take downs from himself initiating the take down and rag dolling them to the ground and also I'm not sure why you would be surprised to see Shogun going for take downs. Shogun frequently goes for take downs in most of his fights, even against wrestlers like Coleman. Seeing Shogun shoot for a take down against Jones wouldnt surprise me at all. He has decent trips and a LETHAL top game.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> @LifeBeez. Watch it again. In round 1 Jones takes down Bader with a shooting double leg take down, WITH EASE. What are you trying to say any way? Bones is only going to be able to take Shogun down if Rua shoots in for a take down and stuffs it?


Not at all, yes Jones takes guys down, but the majority of the time when he finishes a fight it's off a stuff takedown, like against Bader, if I remember correctly he did the same to Vlad and Hamill too, but I don't remember that fight as well tbh.

I don't doubt Jones will take Shogun down at all. Was just saying that from what I've seen Jones does best on the ground when he doesn't shoot a double/single and end up in guard. He does best when he can stuff and sweep. Not a knock on his ability, but he seems to sit in guard quite a bit when he shoots and gets the takedown, he doesn't seem as active at least, he GnPs more than passing and advancing his position. When he stuffs he'll take side control or get to the back and is far more active.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Life B Ez said:


> Not at all, yes Jones takes guys down, but the majority of the time when he finishes a fight it's off a stuff takedown, like against Bader, if I remember correctly he did the same to Vlad and Hamill too, but I don't remember that fight as well tbh.
> 
> I don't doubt Jones will take Shogun down at all. Was just saying that from what I've seen Jones does best on the ground when he doesn't shoot a double/single and end up in guard. He does best when he can stuff and sweep. Not a knock on his ability, but he seems to sit in guard quite a bit when he shoots and gets the takedown, he doesn't seem as active at least, he GnPs more than passing and advancing his position. When he stuffs he'll take side control or get to the back and is far more active.


He stuffed Baders and ended up on top but that was it. He took down Vlad with his own take down after Vlad came in swinging a punch. Jones is the one who pretty much always goes for the take downs and secures them, the only exception is the Bader reversal, every other time has been Jones engaging. And most of the time they come from the clinch.



















I don't recall Jones ever really being inactive on the ground either.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> I don't recall Jones ever really being inactive on the ground either.


The first one is against Bonnar? I know he can get take downs don't dispute that.

I thought he stuffed Vlads shot and that led to the crucifix? He was pretty inactive against Vera until that elbow, a fight where he shot a single and ended up in guard. When I say inactive I mean BJJ wise, when he's in guard he more just GnPs, not a lot passing that I've seen.

Side note: How did Vlad just let himself get dumped like that? I mean Jones has power, but Vlad seemed pretty content to let Jones throw his leg behind to dump him, Vlad is supposed to be the old wise dog wrestler.....Maybe it's just me but I know if I was locked up like that and someone had me up high the way Jones was I'd be waiting for that leg to go back.


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## Semtex (Feb 1, 2011)

Shogun via submission -leg lock off his back!


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Life B Ez said:


> The first one is against Bonnar? I know he can get take downs don't dispute that.
> 
> I thought he stuffed Vlads shot and that led to the crucifix? He was pretty inactive against Vera until that elbow, a fight where he shot a single and ended up in guard. When I say inactive I mean BJJ wise, when he's in guard he more just GnPs, not a lot passing that I've seen.
> 
> Side note: How did Vlad just let himself get dumped like that? I mean Jones has power, but Vlad seemed pretty content to let Jones throw his leg behind to dump him, Vlad is supposed to be the old wise dog wrestler.....Maybe it's just me but I know if I was locked up like that and someone had me up high the way Jones was I'd be waiting for that leg to go back.


Why not just go and watch the fight again. He didnt stuff Vlad, he took him down and raped him on the ground like he did with Hamill and Vera.

Vlad wasn't content on any thing, he just got schooled on the ground by the vastly superior fighter.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

He will still find a way to argue with video proof trust me.


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## pipe (Jun 15, 2008)

I can see Shogun winning this via a arm bar or maybe a triangle.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Why not just go and watch the fight again. He didnt stuff Vlad, he took him down and raped him on the ground like he did with Hamill and Vera.
> 
> Vlad wasn't content on any thing, he just got schooled on the ground by the vastly superior fighter.


Exactly what I meant, that he stuffed Vald's takedown and transitioned quickly to that crucifix. He didn't do it off shooting a double. I really not understanding what we're arguing over? TBH.

@***** I disagree with you once and now you're in trolling me, good to know you don't hold a grudge and adding something to the discussion.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Jones clearly took Matyushenko down.

But not like Matyushenko has much of a guard.


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

That Vlad clip makes me crack up... I'm pretty sure Sarah Kaufman could've scored a takedown on that punch from Vlad.

But Jones has sick crazy Greco-Judo-Folkstyle-Matrix throws and takedowns, so he'll likely get Shogun to the mat unless Rua puts his lights out first...


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Life B Ez said:


> Exactly what I meant, that he stuffed Vald's takedown and transitioned quickly to that crucifix. He didn't do it off shooting a double. I really not understanding what we're arguing over? TBH.
> 
> @***** I disagree with you once and now you're in trolling me, good to know you don't hold a grudge and adding something to the discussion.


Hey, are you blind? Jones didn't stuff any Vlad take down, Jones took him down after Vlad threw a punch.....


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

No_Mercy said:


> I actually think Shogun will take Jones down or at least reverse/sweep em.
> 
> Hope Jones plays the striking game to test himself.


I could see JBJ getting subbed before he gets swept. I'd have to watch the fights again, but I think he spent most of his time on top with Hammill and Bader - pretty good wrestlers.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Why not just go and watch the fight again. He didnt stuff Vlad, he took him down and raped him on the ground like he did with Hamill and Vera.
> 
> Vlad wasn't content on any thing, he just got schooled on the ground by the vastly superior fighter.


That video reminds me why I never reach my arm under and try a pendulum sweep in mma - if you miss and the guy traps it with his legs, you're in a baaad place:boo01:


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> Hey, are you blind? Jones didn't stuff any Vlad take down, Jones took him down after Vlad through a punch.....


I don't think he's blind, he's just reading the opposite of what you type, from what I can tell.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

I dont know where everyone is getting this Shogun has a great guard from but can someone actually show me gifs or something because ive seen a lot of his fights and the only fights ive seen on the ground while he is on his back he lost by submission to Babalu and Forrest.

Shogun has 1 submission win and i just think people are saying this because they're scared that Jones will dominate him and need to cling onto something and i know Subs arent just BJJ sweeps etc but honestly the guy doesnt look good enough to sweep jones.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> I dont know where everyone is getting this Shogun has a great guard from but can someone actually show me gifs or something because ive seen a lot of his fights and the only fights ive seen on the ground while he is on his back he lost by submission to Babalu and Forrest.
> 
> Shogun has 1 submission win and i just think people are saying this because they're scared that Jones will dominate him and need to cling onto something and i know Subs arent just BJJ sweeps etc but honestly the guy doesnt look good enough to sweep jones.


Good point - I thought he had more subs but I checked his record out on wiki and you're right: 23 fights, 16 KO and only ONE sub! (Kneebar vs. Randleman)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurício_Rua


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

***** de Amigo said:


> I dont know where everyone is getting this Shogun has a great guard from but can someone actually show me gifs or something because ive seen a lot of his fights and the only fights ive seen on the ground while he i*s on his back he lost by submission to Babalu and Forrest.*
> 
> Shogun has 1 submission win and i just think people are saying this because they're scared that Jones will dominate him and need to cling onto something and i know Subs arent just BJJ sweeps etc but honestly the guy doesnt look good enough to sweep jones.


You've not seen many of his fights then, clearly. Shogun has one of the most aggressive, dynamic guards in MMA.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> You've not seen many of his fights then, clearly. Shogun has one of the most aggressive, dynamic guards in MMA.


yea im hearing this can you tell me a fight to watch , or am i forgetting something or show me a gif anything ?

Dont keep saying it suggest something or show evidence because i cant think of any.


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## TittiesOrtiz (Aug 17, 2007)

Jon Jones is going to murder Shogun. When Shogun fought a man much bigger and taller than him (Forrest) that had actually decent wrestling, he was worked. The only way Jones will lose this is by DQ due to a 12-6 elbow.

Speaking of which, does anyone think Rashad Evans is pissed now? He would have decisively beaten Shogun by decision and now his own training partner will get the belt before him. I'd be upset.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

***** de Amigo said:


> yea im hearing this can you tell me a fight to watch , or am i forgetting something or show me a gif anything ?
> 
> Dont keep saying it suggest something or show evidence because i cant think of any.


Do your own research. The evidence is out there, clear as day.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Do your own research. The evidence is out there, clear as day.


You have been so much help thanks :sarcastic12: I already know what i need to know , ive seen enough of Shogun to realise he aint good enough , i thought maybe you guys have seen something i hadnt but judging by your lack of enthusiasm to prove me wrong i can safely say there is no proof Shogun has a good enough guard to beat Jones.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

***** de Amigo said:


> You have been so much help thanks :sarcastic12: I already know what i need to know , ive seen enough of Shogun to realise he aint good enough , i thought maybe you guys have seen something i hadnt but judging by your lack of enthusiasm to prove me wrong i can safely say there is no proof Shogun has a good enough guard to beat Jones.


I find that extremely hard to believe when you say the only times shogun has been on his back he lost. Shogun as been on his back PLENTY......and won.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> I find that extremely hard to believe when you say the only times shogun has been on his back he lost. Shogun as been on his back PLENTY......and won.


Im trying to find EVIDENCE of when he has used HIS GUARD to SWEEP guys which everyone claiming he has can someone tell me when ? 

Yea i know he has been on his back and won.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> Im trying to find EVIDENCE of when he has used HIS GUARD to SWEEP guys which everyone claiming he has can someone tell me when ?


I've got his most recent fight for you. Machida's top control is better than just about anyone at 205 and Shogun swept him twice, the second time with a shredded ACL. Watch Forrest fight again, Shogun gassed and got subbed at the end but before that he swept and threatened Forrest. Or watch against Liddel when Chuck charged him Shogun dropped down and went right for a leg and came close to finishing Chuck. There are just a few, I mean watch a few Shogun fights before you start speaking gibberish.


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## Steroid Steve (Oct 1, 2010)

Soooo who were the winners and losers in this thread? :confused02:


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

The loser was Shogun's knee.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> The loser was Shogun's knee.


The loser was shogun, you can have a bad knee and still train your cardio on a bike, just takes longer.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

cool thread


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Watch Shogun's fights with Randleman, Coleman and even BJJ stud Machida. Shogun has one of the most active and superior guards in the sport. People talk about his wrestling and takedown defense, but his ability to sweep is so great that he probably doesn't need to train it that much. He has good takedowns himself.
> 
> On top of it, Jones has showed some REALLY, REALLY bad tendencies on the mat. In almost all of his fights, in fact. Rogan admonished him for leaving his hand on the mat in the Vera fight, one of the most fundamental rules in BJJ, and he did it constantly. Matyushenko briefly threatened him with a straight armbar. And even worse, Jones showed a complete inability to control Ryan Bader on the ground, and he could do almost no ground and pound. If he can't ground and pound Shogun, good luck trying to submit him, and in a 5 round fight, I'm willing to bet Shogun catches him with SOMETHING, a strike or sub, before time expires. I'd also wager Jones gasses first.
> 
> The only way I see Jones winning this fight is if Shogun has absolutely no cardio and looks horrible from the knee scope.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAAA!

Shogun's guard sure bested Jones. It's the perfect position to sit and eat elbows all night. What amazing skills!! I've never seen anyone pull so many elbows towards his face successfully, Shogun must've trained like an animal!


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

KillerShark1985 said:


> Jones is a natural, once he gets Shogun down belts and colors are not going to mean sh1t, I just don't think that Shogun thanks to all the injuries that have kept him out the sport over the last 3 or 4 years is going to what it takes to handle the power of Jones, I doubt he could even handle Rash or Bader these days never mind Jones.


Just want to quote myself for been right


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAAA!
> 
> Shogun's guard sure bested Jones. It's the perfect position to sit and eat elbows all night. What amazing skills!! I've never seen anyone pull so many elbows towards his face successfully, Shogun must've trained like an animal!


oh, **** off.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAAA!
> 
> Shogun's guard sure bested Jones. It's the perfect position to sit and eat elbows all night. What amazing skills!! I've never seen anyone pull so many elbows towards his face successfully, Shogun must've trained like an animal!





















Suck on that.


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## fan4life (Oct 4, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> Yeah no joke. I don't understand how people think Jones wins this fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How does crow taste? LOL just joking a bit.


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## Steroid Steve (Oct 1, 2010)

Steroid Steve said:


> Jones is too long and big to be affected by Shogun's guard.
> 
> Maybe if Shogun could use his lethal soccer kicks, I'd probably give him the advantage over Jones. :sarcastic12:





Steroid Steve said:


> I don't ever recall saying that long limbs is advantageous in defending against bjj. I did say Jones' size and length could be too much for Rua, which very well could be the case when he gets on top and starts throwing rangy elbows. This is a mma match, not a bjj match. If Jones somehow gets caught on the ground, then ill say I was wrong.


I guess I was right, Sigfig.. :thumb02:

I guess I was right...


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> Suck on that.


Yeah it's called getting old, happens to approximately 100% of mankind. At least Chuck dominated his division for close to a decade before losing his chin and reflexes and turning his gloves in at 40. So did my other idol Fedor, before someone mentions his last couple of losses too.

Shogun on the other hand got his ass handed to him in his FIRST title defence at age 29. And in his UFC debut for that matter. Oh, and he beat a couple of said retirees in the meantime. 

I guess Ali sucks for losing to Berbick too.

The only reason I'm being so in your face about the win is because of how obnoxious and completely dismissive Shogun nuthuggers were being leading up to this fight. Got neg repped just for questioning stuff like Shogun's so called elite BJJ (which we all saw tonight) among other things.

If you guys don't like eating crow, you should be less of a douchebag mob and more of an intelligent discussion crew leading up to a fight.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> How any one can say with confidence "this guy is going to definitely win" or "I dont see why people think this guy can win" is beyond me. This fight is about as 50/50 as it gets. To me, this is a super fight. Shogun is the toughest guy Jones has had to face by far and Jon Jones is the toughest guy Shogun has had to face (yes i'm going to call it now, jones is better than lil nog, randleman, arona, rampage and a LHW overeem), the kid is an absolute freak of nature and a prodigy. He would wipe the floor with all of the opponents shogun has faced, just like rua did.
> 
> This fight all boils down to Jones top game vs Shoguns guard. Which one will prevail? I still cant make my mind up.





Liddellianenko said:


> Yeah it's called getting old, happens to approximately 100% of mankind. At least Chuck dominated his division for close to a decade before losing his chin and reflexes and turning his gloves in at 40. So did my other idol Fedor, before someone mentions his last couple of losses too.
> 
> Shogun on the other hand got his ass handed to him in his FIRST title defence at age 29. And in his UFC debut for that matter. Oh, and he beat a couple of said retirees in the meantime.
> 
> ...


Yea, some real Shogun nut hugging going on there. :confused03:

You were/still are bitter about Shogun (widely regarded as one of the best LHW's ever) KO'ing your idol Chuck.

You gave him no respect before the fight and none after, not an ounce of it, thats why people are negging you.

Chuck would have got wrecked by Rua if he was younger. Age didnt seem to be a factor when he got smashed by Rampage in Pride and then KO'd in the UFC when he was on a tear. He's never been great against other top strikers.


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

Steroid Steve said:


> I guess I was right, Sigfig.. :thumb02:
> 
> I guess I was right...


Yes Steroid Steve. You are WINNING. 

You're my new hero.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> The loser was Shogun's knee.


Wait, why? :confused02:


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