# Penn's Weight Problem (Jake Rossen speaks the truth)



## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

http://sherdogblog.craveonline.com/blog/2010-04-05#23654



> Lately, the pound-for-pound debate has been taking a three-way split: Anderson Silva, Georges St. Pierre, and Fedor Emelianenko. B.J. Penn’s suffocation at the hands of St. Pierre over a year ago has polluted his participation. And it’s a shame. Of the four men mentioned, it’s Penn who has done the most to convince me his abilities deserve discussion of transcending the sport.
> 
> What other 155-pound athlete could ever survive in a ring against the current 205-pound champion? (Penn did, against Lyoto Machida in 2005.) Who else could have moved up to 170 to obliterate Matt Hughes at a time when Hughes was driving a steamroller over contenders? (St. Pierre hasn’t budged from 170; Anderson Silva went to 205 for fights against Forrest Griffin and James Irvin.)
> 
> ...


Penn is probably the only one of the great fighters of today that would literally fight anyone, i have no doubt in my mind that he would even fight Brock if Dana gave him the chance. All the others greats have their excuses of not wanting to move weight or not fighting friends ect. BJ Penn is the greatest fighter to walk this earth.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

I like BJ Penn, but him losing to GSP 2 times(dont care if you think he won) hurts his P4P status, only a LITTLE bit. The P4P ranks are SO close that you can literally have any of them in any given spot. The champions of the UFC are just that good. 

I think GSP would take a shot at MW, but its mainly Dana White holding him back. He said numerous times that he wants GSP to stay on WW, and he might stay for a while longer, there are still fighters to fight him...not many though. nobody will beat him at WW out of those who still have a shot at him. 

I was this to happen...
BJ Penn = WW
GSP = MW 
Silva = LHW after GSP fight


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

The big difference between BJ and Anderson Silva is Anderson is a huge 185 and a good sized 205. BJ at welterweight is small, and even a lightweight he's on the smaller end of the spectrum compared to some of the monsters there. If BJ could go to 170 and match the bigger guys for size, I think he'd stand a much better chance against GSP. He never will, but as long as we recognise that he's never going to be a natural, in shape 170, we can keep things in perspective. 

If we consider Anderson as someone who is naturally a 185/205 pound fighter, shouldn't we really consider Penn as at least a 145/155 pound fighter? He's never going to match welterweights for size, so his losses to Hughes and GSP don't really mean much. I consider it like Anderson losing to mid sized heavyweights around 235.

BJ hasn't lost at 155 for a long time. Neither has Anderson at 185, but GSP lost at 170 not all that long ago. If anything, against opposition their own size it's Anderson and BJ who are the best.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

He definitely doesn't get his due from the fan boys. Bj has literally traveled the world looking for the greatest challenges. Think about it people, when he took matt hughes belt there were no ww's in the ufc to challenge him so he left the belt and the ufc behind and went and fought machida.

In my opinion when silva steps up to brock or Gsp takes on machida then and only then can they be compared to BJ on the pfp scale.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

> Even with a perfect program, Penn is unlikely to ever match St. Pierre’s sheer physicality in the cage. But that does not make him the inferior fighter. Performance is relative to environment. Penn finishes fights; St. Pierre does not. Penn moves up; St. Pierre remains stationary. Penn pursues the best; Silva says he can’t fight his friends. The best fighter in the world competes Saturday, and his name is B.J. Penn.


*THIS.*


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

You dont need to finish every single fight to be considered on top on the P4P. It is domination, whether you dominate him striking and KO him in the 3rd, or dominate him on the ground for 5.

fact is nobody can touch GSP, he hardly even gets hit anymore when he strikes with the best,even if it is striking for 2 minutes out of the whole fight. I am not trying to dog Penn or anything, I have become a big fan of his now that he is more humble and doesnt run him mouth.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

There is one reason for me that takes BJ out of the #1 P4P equation and that's GSP beating him. P4P is usually just speculation, but in this case *WE KNOW*. So why discuss who is the better fighter? BJ has grown on me since he's not walking on the trash talking douchebag road anymore and I certainly love to see him fight, but for me he just can't be #1 P4P when GSP beat him.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> There is one reason for me that takes BJ out of the #1 P4P equation and that's GSP beating him. P4P is usually just speculation, but in this case *WE KNOW*. So why discuss who is the better fighter? BJ has grown on me since he's not walking on the trash talking douchebag road anymore and I certainly love to see him fight, but for me he just can't be #1 P4P when GSP beat him.


Yeah I agree, but at the same time I think BJ shows a far more well rounded skill set when he fights. GSP may be more dominated, but in his last fight it was basically 25 minutes of watching him wrestle and move through transitions on the ground combined with a few [failed] submission attempts. When BJ fought Diego it was an absolutely world class display of boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Kickboxing etc. Fact of the matter is he's a far more entertaining and well rounded fighter, even if GSP is more dominant. GSP has essentially found the perfect method to winning fights, and I can't blame him for sticking to it, but as a result it leaves his fights a little stale.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

having stale fights doesnt do anything to your P4P status which people seem to think. There was a whole lot of people claiming GSP has gone down the P4P ladder because he cant finish. Finishing fights is for the fans benefit, and maybe their legacy, but it is not relevant in the P4P ladder.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Spec0688 said:


> having stale fights doesnt do anything to your P4P status which people seem to think. There was a whole lot of people claiming GSP has gone down the P4P ladder because he cant finish. Finishing fights is for the fans benefit, and maybe their legacy, but it is not relevant in the P4P ladder.


Never said it did anything to harm his P4P status, I'm just making the point that BJ may be ranked below GSP in the P4P standings but he brings a far more diverse game when he fights.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

I know, I just felt like saying it though:thumb01:


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Noted!


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## SonofJor-El (Jan 20, 2008)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> There is one reason for me that takes BJ out of the #1 P4P equation and that's GSP beating him. P4P is usually just speculation, but in this case *WE KNOW*. So why discuss who is the better fighter? BJ has grown on me since he's not walking on the trash talking douchebag road anymore and I certainly love to see him fight, but for me he just can't be #1 P4P when GSP beat him.


Here's the problem with that analysis: when BJ fights at WW and they announce him at 168 pounds, he's actually in the cage at 168 pounds. GSP cuts to make 170 and is in the cage on fight night between 180-185. That means BJ was giving up between 12-17 pounds in both GSP fights!!! (Almost winning the first one BTW) 

How can you say *"WE KNOW"* who the better P4P fighter based on their head-to-head fight when they were a FULL WEIGHT CLASS apart on fight night? You're telling me if BJ had 10-15 more pounds of muscle on him and they both weighed the same on fight night, that those two GSP fights wouldn't have gone differently? I think they would have.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> There is one reason for me that takes BJ out of the #1 P4P equation and that's GSP beating him. P4P is usually just speculation, but in this case *WE KNOW*. So why discuss who is the better fighter? BJ has grown on me since he's not walking on the trash talking douchebag road anymore and I certainly love to see him fight, but for me he just can't be #1 P4P when GSP beat him.


But it was an entire weight class above his natural weight. id like to see GSP move down to LW and fight BJ. I wonder if the p4p rankings would change then.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> There is one reason for me that takes BJ out of the #1 P4P equation and that's GSP beating him. P4P is usually just speculation, but in this case *WE KNOW*. So why discuss who is the better fighter? BJ has grown on me since he's not walking on the trash talking douchebag road anymore and I certainly love to see him fight, but for me he just can't be #1 P4P when GSP beat him.


I agree that BJ's p4p status is hurt by the deafeats at WW, but its the fact that he is willing to step up weight to fight the worlds best and still give a good account of himself that makes him the greatest. He doesnt like fighting people that everyone knows he can beat, he wants the fighters that we think can beat him, now thats a true warrior is it not? GSP would rather just stay at WW and beat the fighters everyone knows he can beat, which is still great by all means, but its not what we want to see, we want him to test himself against fighters that we think can beat him and he should too.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> But it was an entire weight class above his natural weight. id like to see GSP move down to LW and fight BJ. I wonder if the p4p rankings would change then.


Me too, but it won't happen man.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Nefilim777 said:


> Me too, but it won't happen man.


*sighs*, i know. We can just pray that BJ does the unthinkable, dedicates himself to WW and beats GSP. I dont care what these official p4p rankings state, i know and true fight fans know that BJ is the superior fighter.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

BJ Penn is just amazing!



oldfan said:


> He definitely doesn't get his due from the fan boys. Bj has literally traveled the world looking for the greatest challenges. Think about it people, when he took matt hughes belt there were no ww's in the ufc to challenge him so he left the belt and the ufc behind and went and fought machida.
> 
> In my opinion when silva steps up to brock or Gsp takes on machida then and only then can they be compared to BJ on the pfp scale.


The reason that he left the UFC was money! Dana didn't wanted him to pay what he was worth at the time he won the WW belt, so he left to K-1! He and Dana had a lot of heat at the time.


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## KittenStrangler (Mar 26, 2010)

How can people say BJ isn't P4P because GSP beat him? People seem to think WW BJ Penn is the same as LW BJ Penn. Before even walking into the octagon that night, Penn was already at a disadvantage. GSP was lucky enough to have a handicap before fighting. Anderson Silva and BJ Penn are the top 2 simply because they dominate their opponents AND finish them.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

come fight time, its more than likely BJ weighs the same as he does at WW as he does at LW, and the fact he would be favourite to beat everyone in the division bar GSP is just amazing i think. I wonder how many fights against top MW's GSP would be the favourite for?


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

SonofJor-El said:


> Here's the problem with that analysis: when BJ fights at WW and they announce him at 168 pounds, he's actually in the cage at 168 pounds. GSP cuts to make 170 and is in the cage on fight night between 180-185. That means BJ was giving up between 12-17 pounds in both GSP fights!!! (Almost winning the first one BTW)
> 
> How can you say *"WE KNOW"* who the better P4P fighter based on their head-to-head fight when they were a FULL WEIGHT CLASS apart on fight night? You're telling me if BJ had 10-15 more pounds of muscle on him and they both weighed the same on fight night, that those two GSP fights wouldn't have gone differently? I think they would have.


I agree with most of your post (I still think GSP would have beaten BJ). But that's another problem. Weight classes nowadays are just like that (and I don't like it as I mentioned in another thread). Until we have weigh ins on the day of the fight that's not gonna change and until that day there will always be such discrepancies. These discrepancies is what makes people say that a HW can never be P4P king because he's heavier (which doesn't make sense at all). Fact is that GSP beat BJ twice in (what is today seen as a) fair fight. Nothing is going to change that.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> I agree with most of your post (I still think GSP would have beaten BJ). But that's another problem. Weight classes nowadays are just like that (and I don't like it as I mentioned in another thread). Until we have weigh ins on the day of the fight that's not gonna change and until that day there will always be such discrepancies. *These discrepancies is what makes people say that a HW can never be P4P king because he's heavier* (which doesn't make sense at all). Fact is that GSP beat BJ twice in (what is today seen as a) fair fight. Nothing is going to change that.


lol what? P4P is imagining if all the fighters were to fight at the same natural weight who would prevail? Who has the most skill.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

I can't help but laugh at the people who think GSP beating BJ shows he's better p4p. Do you people know what p4p means? It doesn't mean if there was an open weight tournament the winner is the best p4p, it's relative to weights.

GSP is easily an entire weight class above BJ and dwarfed him in their last meeting.


This notion that going up in weight when he's already a smallish 155, and losing to GSP makes him inferior in p4p terms is ridiculous.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> BJ Penn is just amazing!
> 
> 
> 
> The reason that he left the UFC was money! Dana didn't wanted him to pay what he was worth at the time he won the WW belt, so he left to K-1! He and Dana had a lot of heat at the time.


This is true but the result is the same. He traveled the world fighting bigger and better fighters than the ufc had to offer at ww or mw

I just don't believe that GSP has the ability to go the distance with machida or the courage (ok maybe courage isn't the right word how about "sense of adventure") to try.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

oldfan said:


> This is true but the result is the same. He traveled the world fighting bigger and better fighters than the ufc had to offer at ww or mw
> 
> I just don't believe that GSP has the ability to go the distance with machida or the courage (ok maybe courage isn't the right word how about "sense of adventure") to try.


Well I think that if GSP wants to truly prove that he's the best pound for pound fighters in the world then he has to start trying out other weight divisions. We all know he's dominant at WW, now prove it in another class. It's funny, in the prime time leading up to 111 GSP said that he wants to constantly challenge himself and to prove he's the best. Well he's proved he's the best welter weight, now he should prove he's as dominant in other classes too.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

DJ Syko said:


> come fight time, its more than likely BJ weighs the same as he does at WW as he does at LW, and the fact he would be favourite to beat everyone in the division bar GSP is just amazing i think. I wonder how many fights against top MW's GSP would be the favourite for?


To be honest Syko, he would be a favourite in every single fight except Silva! But even there he wouldn't be a huge underdog because of his style.



oldfan said:


> This is true but the result is the same. He traveled the world fighting bigger and better fighters than the ufc had to offer at ww or mw
> 
> I just don't believe that GSP has the ability to go the distance with machida or the courage (ok maybe courage isn't the right word how about "sense of adventure") to try.


Thats right yes! 

I think GSP has this sense of adventure in him! He will challenge Anderson someday and prove it to us. He is just waiting for the right time.


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## H-Deep (Feb 3, 2009)

I think this is one of the best threads i have ever read. I agree with absolutely everything written about Penn on this thread ( i cant quote everything as its too long). The guy always looks to test himself and for most of his career has fought people bigger than him. He takes risks by moving up weight classes in order to test himself.

The guy has fought the current ww and lhw champions and im sure if he was asked he would fight the current mw heck even the current hw champion. Thats just his mentality, hes not afraid to step outside of his comfort zone.

Im not gonna bad mouth Gsp however when i see fighters like Penn or even Fedor for that matter fighting opponents a lot bigger than they are i gain a different type of respect for them. Size as im sure everyone on here will agree makes a massive difference and when you are fighting someone in such a competitive organisation (such as ufc or pride for fedor) size can play a huge part. Instead of playing it safe, Penn's happy to take big risks and fight outside of his comfort zone. I think until fighters like gsp move up a weight class, i personally will always rank Penn above him as Penn has proved he can go out of his comfort zone and still be successful. Gsp is yet to do that. I respect the guy a lot for what hes done at ww but i dont see why hes still at the weight class. Hes beaten everyone at 170 and no one wants to see him beat these people again.

War penn, the best fighter to ever grace the octagon


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## bigbog (Apr 3, 2010)

gsp is my favorite fighter and i hate to say this but gsp beating pennn means nothing in the p4p. pen moved up and fought gsp, so you have to believe that he wasn't the best pen. if gsp cut down and beat penn at 155 then he would be a better p4p. the only way to see whos the best p4p is what the fighters do in their own weight classes, and penn is one of the best lightweights the world has ever seen


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## Kang-War (Aug 21, 2009)

I want to see penn cut down weight and fight Jose aldo


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> To be honest Syko, he would be a favourite in every single fight except Silva! But even there he wouldn't be a huge underdog because of his style.


hmm, am not sure, i think Chael and Hendo could be slight faves, just for being bigger and having comparable wrestling to him. I think Chael would do a Marquardt on him and just maul him for 3 rounds but that's my opinion obviously. I think Marquardts size would be too much for GSP and could be a fave going into the fight. A Vitor fight would be close odds, and i think alot of people would say he would KO GSP. I dunno maybe am not giving him enough credit, but i think the size difference at MW would be a bigger problem for GSP than it would for BJ at WW.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

H-Deep said:


> I think this is one of the best threads i have ever read. I agree with absolutely everything written about Penn on this thread ( i cant quote everything as its too long). The guy always looks to test himself and for most of his career has fought people bigger than him. He takes risks by moving up weight classes in order to test himself.
> 
> The guy has fought the current ww and lhw champions and im sure if he was asked he would fight the current mw heck even the current hw champion. Thats just his mentality, hes not afraid to step outside of his comfort zone.
> 
> ...


Perfect thread summary, I would only change the last sentence to War Penn the most talented and adventurous fighter to ever grace the octagon. 

I know I'm gonna catch hell for this but but Randy is the best. I'm always disapointed that he never gets mentioned in these pfp discussions. NO ONE has done more in the sport with the tools god gave them than Captain america. People who judge randy or anyone in this sport by their record alone are fools. Watch his fights with Brock, GG, timmy, then chuck, tito, vitor... he wasn't even the bigger fighter in many of his lhw fights at hw he oftern gave up 40+ lbs. Maybe I just don't understand what pfp greatness means.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

DJ Syko said:


> hmm, am not sure, i think Chael and Hendo could be slight faves, just for being bigger and having comparable wrestling to him. I think Chael would do a Marquardt on him and just maul him for 3 rounds but that's my opinion obviously. I think Marquardts size would be too much for GSP and could be a fave going into the fight. A Vitor fight would be close odds, and i think alot of people would say he would KO GSP. I dunno maybe am not giving him enough credit, but i think the size difference at MW would be a bigger problem for GSP than it would for BJ at WW.


For me GSP actually is already a small MW now! But BJ is a Featherweight, who would fight in the WW devision. I think it's definitely the other way around. 

I would never believe that Sonnen, could do the same think to GSP. For me both fighters would struggle hard to get the other person down and we would see a striking battle where GSP is lightyears ahead.
Vitor would meet GSP's Wrestling and would not know how to handle it. I see this fight 3 Rounds on the ground, with George on top of him in his guard. UD victory for him! He wouldn't stand more then a couple of seconds with Vitor each round.
He won't fight Marquardt cause they are to close!

Okami, Akiyama, Belcher.. all would meet the Wrestler GSP as would many many more..


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Haha I always kill conversations like that. I'm just saying randy often won giving up 40 lbs. does anyone here really think GSP could beat a prime randy just giving up say...30lbs?


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## MarcV (May 26, 2009)

A couple of observations:

I think many confuse the Pound for Pound "title" for a Grand Prix-style title. BJ loses to GSP. GSP, who is smaller than Silva would probably lose to him. Anderson would probably lose to Machida and if not Machida, then to Lesnar. Does that make Lesnar the best p4p or the "Grand prix" winner?

My opinion is that BJ and Anderson are the best all-round mma fighters in the world. They both have incredible killer instincts. They beat the snot out of their opponents and I want to watch a guy who is going to try to do that to his opponent. (Not to knock the other chanps, but not all do that and I find their styles frustrating to watch.)

Pound for Pound means that: match a guy with another at a projected weight. For example if GSP were the same size (height and weight)as BJ, I think BJ beats him pretty badly. If Anderson Silva were BJ's size (you'd have Jose Aldo), it would be an incredible fight. I think it is helpful to project guys the same size instead of making smaller guys be bigger and say they are not as good as is often the case with BJ vs GSP. 

Let's not mix up pound for pound with "who would win a fight if they fought" mentality.

Sorry about my ramblings!


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

oldfan said:


> Perfect thread summary, I would only change the last sentence to War Penn the most talented and adventurous fighter to ever grace the octagon.
> 
> I know I'm gonna catch hell for this but but Randy is the best. I'm always disapointed that he never gets mentioned in these pfp discussions. NO ONE has done more in the sport with the tools god gave them than Captain america. People who judge randy or anyone in this sport by their record alone are fools. Watch his fights with Brock, GG, timmy, then chuck, tito, vitor... he wasn't even the bigger fighter in many of his lhw fights at hw he oftern gave up 40+ lbs. Maybe I just don't understand what pfp greatness means.


Well said and I agree 100%. His record doesn't eve n come close to showing how a great a fighter he is/was. Talk about someone who will fight anyone at anytime.


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## tlilly (Nov 13, 2009)

Hiro said:


> I can't help but laugh at the people who think GSP beating BJ shows he's better p4p. Do you people know what p4p means? It doesn't mean if there was an open weight tournament the winner is the best p4p, it's relative to weights.
> 
> GSP is easily an entire weight class above BJ and dwarfed him in their last meeting.
> 
> ...


I agree, I don't think GSP beating BJ makes him a better p4p fighter because BJ is clearly a different fighter at 170 compared to 155. However, I do believe GSP has shown to be a better p4p fighter because of the level of competition he has gone through in 170. 
BJ's 155 notable wins: 
Gomi, Pulver, Stevenson, Sherk, Kenny, Diego

GSP:
Karo, Hieron, Miller, Sherk, Hughes x2, 170 Penn x2, Kos, Fitch Alves. 

Although BJ has looked dominant against his opponents, I still think the list of 170lbs that GSP went through trumps BJ's list. And for that reason (not because gsp beat 170 bj), is the reason I think GSP is a more deserving of p4p. 

I guess my premise for p4p or any rankings isn't what a fighter can potentially do but what they have done.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

BJ Penn is a real fighters, favorite fighter.

he doesnt just fight to win, or for $. he fights cuz he loves to fight, and he will fight anybody, anywhere, any weight.

he doesnt get 1/2 the respect he deserves.

now he is very motivated and everybody is in trouble.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

MarcV said:


> A couple of observations:
> 
> I think many confuse the Pound for Pound "title" for a Grand Prix-style title. BJ loses to GSP. GSP, who is smaller than Silva would probably lose to him. Anderson would probably lose to Machida and if not Machida, then to Lesnar. Does that make Lesnar the best p4p or the "Grand prix" winner?
> 
> ...


No need to apologise, you are spot on. I'm surprised how many people on here don't understand the basics of p4p status :confused02:


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

What Alizio said. A fighter who isn't obsessed about his legacy and afraid to risk it by staying stagnant. He fights to defeat opponents, not just to build a golden resume.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Hiro said:


> No need to apologise, you are entirely correct. I'm surprised how many people on here don't understand the basics of p4p status :confused02:


Agreed. Most p4p debates I read are people actually making a GOAT argument as oppose to a p4p.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

tlilly said:


> I agree, I don't think GSP beating BJ makes him a better p4p fighter because BJ is clearly a different fighter at 170 compared to 155. However, I do believe GSP has shown to be a better p4p fighter because of the level of competition he has gone through in 170.
> BJ's 155 notable wins:
> Gomi, Pulver, Stevenson, Sherk, Kenny, Diego
> 
> ...


That's fair enough, that's your opinion based on what p4p is all about. It's a tough one, I see GSP dominating guys without taking one punch, but then I see BJ doing the same but finishing them in brutal fashion. 

For what it's worth you forget Hughes off BJ's list. Also, I don't see Sherk as too special at 170. Sherk is a beast at 155 though, and definitely a notable win for BJ especially considering how he stopped the fight himself and saved the ref the bother :thumb02:

Seriously though, I see it like this (ignoring double wins because I have no doubt BJ would steam through any lightweight he has already faced):

GSP - Miller, Hughes, Kos, Alves, Fitch

BJ - Hughes, Sanchez, Florian, Sherk, Pulver

I think those are the fights in a p4p discussion worth noting. Maybe throw in Gomi but I think he was overrated. It's roughly even i reckon, but BJ makes much lighter work of his opponents. Some people don't think finishing fights translates to being a better fighter, but I think it does.

Oh I see why you left out Hughes, you said 155 wins. I don't consider GSP's wins over BJ significant because that's going down in weight, but I think going up when you're already a naturally small 155 and finishing a 170 like Matt Hughes is really something to shout about.


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## Icculus (Oct 4, 2009)

Hiro said:


> If we consider Anderson as someone who is naturally a 185/205 pound fighter, shouldn't we really consider Penn as at least a 145/155 pound fighter? He's never going to match welterweights for size, so his losses to Hughes and GSP don't really mean much. I consider it like Anderson losing to mid sized heavyweights around 235.


Not just losing to mid-size HW's, but losing to a dominant champion at 235. BJ's losses are only to the very best of the best who were at least 1 weightclass above his fighting weight. 

I agree 100% with what you said in your post and with the OP. BJ could easily drop down and dominate the 145lb division if that division was in the UFC (and was relevant).
Its not possible to know for sure who really is the best p4p in the world, but guys like BJ and AS who can dominate at more than 1 weight class should be given extra credit for that.

Im not taking anything away from GSP, He's going to be the most dominant WW Ive ever seen, but him not challenging himself to move up when the other two guys are costs him some points in my p4p calculations.


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## Icculus (Oct 4, 2009)

Hiro said:


> If we consider Anderson as someone who is naturally a 185/205 pound fighter, shouldn't we really consider Penn as at least a 145/155 pound fighter? He's never going to match welterweights for size, so his losses to Hughes and GSP don't really mean much. I consider it like Anderson losing to mid sized heavyweights around 235.


Not just losing to mid-size HW's, but losing to a dominant champion at 235. BJ's losses are only to the very best of the best who were at least 1 weightclass above his fighting weight. 

I agree 100% with what you said in your post and with the OP. BJ could easily drop down and dominate the 145lb division if that division was in the UFC (and was relevant).
Its not possible to know for sure who really is the best p4p in the world, but guys like BJ and AS who can dominate at more than 1 weight class should be given extra credit for that.

Im not taking anything away from GSP, He's going to be the most dominant WW Ive ever seen, but him not challenging himself to move up when the other two guys are costs him some points in my p4p calculations.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I still feel the only two guys who can be discussed in the #1 spot P4P are Fedor and BJ. GSP lost not that long ago to a smaller guy in Matt Serra and most guys he fights are around his size. Anderson Silva is a huge MW who looked every bit as big as Forrest Griffen who is a big LHW. BJ is not a big LW, hell in fact BJ could make FW. BJ has proven himself across the board at heavier weights and has become the most dominant LW in history despite being undersized.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

You all realize that Andy would wreck Lyoto right? BJ knocked him around for a round and Shogun took it to him and Andy is a far better striker than both of them and he has better grappling than Lyoto as well. BJ and Andy are p4p equals as far as I am concerned.


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## mmamasta (Jan 10, 2008)

WOW!

Just wow, first off Wow at a great thread (no sarcasm), first to REALLY point out how insane this is.

Second wow (and yes I'm ready for the neg rep), the sole reason this thread is still being talked about is GSP nut-huggers. Best quote I read (from another forum, I believe) was "_I don't know how GSP puts his shorts on with so many people huggin' his nuts_". The fact that people even QUESTIONABLY put GSP over BJ in P4P rankings is just insanity.

Third wow, there are WAY too many people (both in the forum and out of it) that do not understand the simple concept of pound for pound. I don't care how you look at it, GSP beating BJ _at GSP's weight class_, DOES NOT affect BJ negatively in the P4P rankings. It without question says "at 170lbs, GSP is a better fighter than BJ", but that's it.

Last wow, at the fact that people really consider GSP as a top P4P. Yes, he has been quite dominant in his division, but my first point would be I don't believe he's even been as dominant as Hughes was (and he was _never _talked about in P4P). And, seriously? How are we even discussing GSP in P4P arguements if he has NEVER fought outside his weight class? Like...did I miss something? Isn't that kind of the whole concept of P4P? Pair that with his lack-luster (yes, I said lack-luster) performances the past few spats in the octagon, and he's an incredible fighter/wrestler, but does not belong in the top P4P rankings alongside BJ/Fedor/Anderson(although hasn't really fought out of his weight class, has DOMINATED his division far more successfully than GSP).

FIN

P.S. I'm not gonna bother with the plethora of reasons why BJ should be in the P4P talks, because that has already been done quite eloquently in this thread. IMHO BJ Penn is the top P4P fighter on the planet, bar none.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

I lov ethe article, but right now BJ is at #2 on my list. Silva "not fighting friends" hasn't been a problem at all thus far. The only friend he would/could fight right now is Lyoto and Lyoto has that shogun thing going on. If it gets to the point where Anderson NEEDS to fight for the LHW title and won't because it's his friend, then it's a problem. As of now he has at least 2 fights at MW left outside of Maia in Vitor and Chael. Then he needs to move to LHW and actually EARN that shot IMO. 

IMO the list goes

1. Anderson Silva
2. BJ Penn
3. Fedor
4. GSP


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> There is one reason for me that takes BJ out of the #1 P4P equation and that's GSP beating him. P4P is usually just speculation, but in this case *WE KNOW*. So why discuss who is the better fighter? BJ has grown on me since he's not walking on the trash talking douchebag road anymore and I certainly love to see him fight, but for me he just can't be #1 P4P when GSP beat him.



his fights against gsp in a different weight class has nothing to do with p4p standings. weight and size has to be takin completely out of the equation when talking about best p4p.


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## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

BJ Penn's Balls rank number one on the p4p list. BJ is definitely not getting his fair share of talk among the elite fighters. BJ is definitely the only one of them doesn't fight safe and takes on all challenges. Sure his record may be inferior in comparison to the others, but I just don't give a shit considering the balls on the man. He'd fight God himself if he could. And he still wouldn't bleed.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

p4p is pretty simple.

if you were a fighter, no matter what size you actually are. Who's skillset would you want??

if you are 150pounds and pick Fedors, you dont get the strength of a 230 pound Fedor. You get comparable strength relative to your size(which would be weaker then Fedors at 230 obv) + the exact same skillset.

you pick GSP, same thing, your 150pounds with GSPs strength and atletism relative to your size + exact same skillset.

i dont know how anybody else sees it but ive a boxing fan for a long time and that's how i always viewed the boxing p4p.

the thing that is hard to gauge is, who is actually stronger and faster at this new weight class where everybody is even??

its really hard to compare. If BJ isnt a true WW (he obv isnt) then his fight with GSP shouldnt count against him in p4p.

If BJ was naturally the same size as GSP, would he be the same strength??

alot of variables so it all comes down to opinion in the end anyways.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Man, this is more like a BJ Penn appreciation thread now, i love it.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Its this thats put Penn on my top three of all MMA, just under Fedor and Silva. Yet GSP get so much more love. I know he's the wrestling God, but he doesn't show much versatility IMO. While Penn shows versatility at all times IMO. I don't know, maybe its just me.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Lets see how he does against Edger before we get crazy here... ya?


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> Lets see how he does against Edger before we get crazy here... ya?


If the way BJ raped and finished his last 4 number one contenders is any indication as to the outcome, then I don't think it's all THAT crazy to not be on the edge of the seat about Edgar. 

BJ Penn is a registered number one contender sex offender.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

alizio said:


> p4p is pretty simple.
> 
> if you were a fighter, no matter what size you actually are. Who's skillset would you want??
> 
> ...


This is how I view P4P as well. Would in this ideal weight class BJ be as strong as GSP? Well no, I think a 155 pound GSP would be comparable to Diego so he would be a bigger stronger fighter still but the advantage would not be nearly as drastic.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

VolcomX311 said:


> If the way BJ raped and finished his last 4 number one contenders is any indication as to the outcome, then I don't think it's all THAT crazy to not be on the edge of the seat about Edgar.
> 
> BJ Penn is a registered number one contender sex offender.


Edgar has shocked me before.. is all im saying.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

I think BJ is definetly a LW and if he wants to test himself at WW he needs to do this Anderson Silva style..That means go up and fight some lower ranked opponent. Nowadays, the problem with weight cutting (especialy teh WW division) is that it's becomed an art. With all this new training techniques, and all these expert coaches, very good nutrition and suppliments at their disposal, fighters can put their bodies thru very a very hard treatment. that's why we get to see guys like Alves, Rumble at WW, even though they are huge huge fighters. BJ doesn't have that big body structure, like other fighters do. I think he could match a lot of fighters at WW but in a fight against such huge guys it would be harder for him.
As dor the P4P Rankings, i believe these should also take in consideration, the competition each Champ has in his division. 
I believe at this moment Machida has the best competition, followed by GSP and Penn. That's why i have stopped believeing in these P4P Rankings. 
I remember, a year ago, everyone had Miguel Torres and Mike Brown in TOP10 P4P and all it took was one loss and now they are outside Top 20. It's very subjective imo.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

limba said:


> I think BJ is definetly a LW and if he wants to test himself at WW he needs to do this Anderson Silva style..That means go up and fight some lower ranked opponent. Nowadays, the problem with weight cutting (especialy teh WW division) is that it's becomed an art. With all this new training techniques, and all these expert coaches, very good nutrition and suppliments at their disposal, fighters can put their bodies thru very a very hard treatment. that's why we get to see guys like Alves, Rumble at WW, even though they are huge huge fighters. BJ doesn't have that big body structure, like other fighters do. I think he could match a lot of fighters at WW but in a fight against such huge guys it would be harder for him.
> As dor the P4P Rankings, i believe these should also take in consideration, the competition each Champ has in his division.
> I believe at this moment Machida has the best competition, followed by GSP and Penn. That's why i have stopped believeing in these P4P Rankings.
> I remember, a year ago, everyone had Miguel Torres and Mike Brown in TOP10 P4P and all it took was one loss and now they are outside Top 20. It's very subjective imo.


Not necessarily, don't forget that BJ has fought at heavy weight before against Lyoto Machida, no mean feat. He can move to WW no problem.


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## towwffc (Jan 1, 2008)

I don't know if i'm the only one to feel this way, but the p4p concept is flawed. You can't make them all the same size because it's not fair. You can't say BJ would beat GSP if they were the same size, so BJ is overall the superior fighter. That is a make believe statement. It could be true, but unfair.

Fighters use there size just like a skill. Brock may only be able to beat Anderson Silva because of his size. But thats the way it is. Obviously Silva is much more skilled than Lesnar but if you take away Lesnars size than it's unfair. If thats the case can you take away Silvas long limbs, BJ's flexibility, and GSP's athleticism? I feel like the whole p4p thing is impossible because it's unfair to take away someones size when that is a big part of there fighting game. It is possible GSP may only be able to beat BJ Penn because of his size, but thats the way it is. BJ has the skill, GSP has the size. If BJ can't overcome it then thats just the way it is.


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## SonofJor-El (Jan 20, 2008)

I'm absolutely shocked that this thread hasn't attracted GSP fanboys to come and start flamethrowing. I made a lot of the same points about BJ's P4P status and why I thought he was better P4P than GSP in a thread late last year and I got flamed and neg rep'd BIG TIME! Where'd those guys go? :dunno:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

towwffc said:


> I don't know if i'm the only one to feel this way, but the p4p concept is flawed. You can't make them all the same size because it's not fair. You can't say BJ would beat GSP if they were the same size, so BJ is overall the superior fighter. That is a make believe statement. It could be true, but unfair.
> 
> Fighters use there size just like a skill. Brock may only be able to beat Anderson Silva because of his size. But thats the way it is. Obviously Silva is much more skilled than Lesnar but if you take away Lesnars size than it's unfair. If thats the case can you take away Silvas long limbs, BJ's flexibility, and GSP's athleticism? I feel like the whole p4p thing is impossible because it's unfair to take away someones size when that is a big part of there fighting game. It is possible GSP may only be able to beat BJ Penn because of his size, but thats the way it is. BJ has the skill, GSP has the size. If BJ can't overcome it then thats just the way it is.


You have figured it out! The whole pfp thing is a make believe exorcise in mmamath, invented by us for us so we would never run out of things to argue about. have fun and remember opinions are like asses. Everyone has one and everyone's but mine stinks.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

What about Fedor and his ability to wreck fighters that are much heavier than him? This long into his career Fedor is still weighing in at around 230, and that's without cutting. 

It's similar to a _natural_ 155'er fighting 170s and 185s his entire career, and disposing of each and every one of them. Right now it's hard to say whether Fedor would beat the likes of Carwin and Lesnar, but these guys are 265+ so does it really matter?

When we start breaking things down for p4p talks, we should consider that if Fedor was in a division just like Anderson, GSP and BJ are, he wouldn't even be fighting the super heavyweights. At 230, there is no one except Cain Velasquez who I can think of that would even stand a chance. If he was in a weight class like all the others, he'd be the undeniable dominant champ of that weight class right now. Then consider that he quite possibly could beat Carwin, Lesnar, JDS and anyone else who wanted it. Imagine that. He might not and we'll never find out, and it wouldn't change what he's already done at only 230 pounds, but if he did beat those monsters I'd consider putting him at number 1.

Fedor p4p is right up there.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Hiro said:


> What about Fedor and his ability to wreck fighters that are much heavier than him? This long into his career Fedor is still weighing in at around 230, and that's without cutting.
> 
> It's similar to a _natural_ 155'er fighting 170s and 185s his entire career, and disposing of each and every one of them. Right now it's hard to say whether Fedor would beat the likes of Carwin and Lesnar, but these guys are 265+ so does it really matter?
> 
> ...


I agree but at the same time nobody is gonna compare Tim Sylvia or Brett Rogers to a Matt Hughes or even a Diego Sanchez.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

Toxic said:


> I agree but at the same time nobody is gonna compare Tim Sylvia or Brett Rogers to a Matt Hughes or even a Diego Sanchez.


Yeah this is why I still think he's behind the others. Him beating guys like Rogers and Sylvia is like BJ beating mid tier middleweights, as well being dominant at his own weight. 

If only Fedor would go to the UFC, we could truly see something special.


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

SonofJor-El said:


> I'm absolutely shocked that this thread hasn't attracted GSP fanboys to come and start flamethrowing. I made a lot of the same points about BJ's P4P status and why I thought he was better P4P than GSP in a thread late last year and I got flamed and neg rep'd BIG TIME! Where'd those guys go? :dunno:


I was wondering how this whole neg rep thing worked? I thought I was making some pretty good points to further the discussion but eveidently I pissed of some fanboy and got flamed and now have a neg rep. If you don't agree with someone, put up a good alternative statement, don't just flame them because you disagree. Hopefully this doesn't piss someone off and I get neg'd again.


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## MexHaHaHa (Mar 20, 2009)

Pound for pound is so damn subjective its sickening. I love Penn, but I wouldn't put him up as number one. I'd give it to Fedor because of his record and his ability to win his fights. That's just me though, Penn, GSP, Silva and Fedor are all pretty interchangable for these debts. Just depends on person(people) making the list.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

dave-stjohn said:


> I was wondering how this whole neg rep thing worked? I thought I was making some pretty good points to further the discussion but eveidently I pissed of some fanboy and got flamed and now have a neg rep. If you don't agree with someone, put up a good alternative statement, don't just flame them because you disagree. Hopefully this doesn't piss someone off and I get neg'd again.


Haha I hate it when they do that. hurts my feelings. would be nice if they would just debate the point huh?.... I'm gonna have to bad rep you for this one...


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## xbrokenshieldx (Mar 5, 2007)

first, let me preface by saying the p4p thing is a bit flawed, and like the posts above have pointed out, it is made up and we have to accept that. Second, what Think is most interesting about this post is his comment about GSP and BJ. All of the GSP lovers always say "BJ can't be the best p4p fighter because GSP beat him twice, thus, GSP is the best p4p fighter.. God he is so sexy". But they are violating the one assumption about p4p status.... that its p4p. I think what needs to be taken from this article is the idea that we can't say BJ isn't up there with GSP because GSP beat him twice. 

Flame away GSP fans.


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## TheNinja (Dec 10, 2008)

That article got me pumped up. BJ is a warrior!! I know he lost to GSP twice but the first fight could of went wither way, the second fight BJ only weighed 168lbs and GSP came in around 185lbs the day of the fight, and then you add the grease. 

I know for a fact with BJ new strength traning and diet, and with his talent and in a fair fight it would be a battle just like the first fight between the two.

But either way I give props to BJ and Anderson silva for fighting in different weight classes. BTW..Anderson is not a huge LHW he walks around at 215-220..that's not very big...that's huge for middle weight, not LHW.

Another thing BJ has going for him is he puts on a show, he uses all his skills unlike some other lay n prey WW champs.

BTW...who cares about the neg rep system...I have red bar because I'm honest about GSP. If he ever starts fighting like a martial artist again I'll cheer for him.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

How long is going to be before another trio of p4p kings dominates MMA? BJ, GSP and Anderson are phenomenal, I'm so glad to be an MMA fan right now :thumb02:


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

why is it just the UFC fighters that are coming up in this post? Gegard Mousasi has done some pretty amazing things fighting at LW he won the Dream tourney, went to StrikeForce and destroyed Babalo at LHW for that title and then held his own in a exhibition match against Fedor, this guy is a beast and can beat you anyway from an upkick KTFO, strikes KTFO or submission, he fights to finish.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

dave-stjohn said:


> why is it just the UFC fighters that are coming up in this post? Gegard Mousasi has done some pretty amazing things fighting at LW he won the Dream tourney, went to StrikeForce and destroyed Babalo at LHW for that title and then held his own in a exhibition match against Fedor, this guy is a beast and can beat you anyway from an upkick KTFO, strikes KTFO or submission, he fights to finish.


this is the ufc section y'know. As for Mousasi, honestly I haven't seen enough of his fights to have a strong opinion about him except that he probably doesn't belong in a pfp debate yet. I'm looking forward to his fight with mo to find out more about both. If mo is only half as good as he thinks he is and mousasi beats him then obviously he's the goat. 

You nerds who take this pfp stuff seriously fire away with the bad rep. Don't forget to call me ugly names and do it anonymously


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

dave-stjohn said:


> I guess I gave to much importance to the neg rep thing, thanks for showing me the light. Also why is it just the UFC fighters that are coming up in this post? Gegard Mousasi has done some pretty amazing things fighting at LW he won the Dream tourney, went to StrikeForce and destroyed Babalo at LHW for that title and then held his own in a exhibition match against Fedor, this guy is a beast and can beat you anyway from an upkick KTFO, strikes KTFO or submission, he fights to finish.


Gegard won the MW tournament and quit the division immediately after because the weight cut was too hard which makes it less impressive to me. He has been destroying second and third tier guys also he hasn't fought any elite fighters at MW or LHW. I put him at 5 but there is a huge dropoff from the top 4.


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## MooJuice (Dec 12, 2008)

p4p by definition means that all fighters have no weight advantage or disadvantage.

that BJ lost to a larger fighter is thus essentially null and void when it comes to p4p rankings.

Just thought i'd point this out.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

I admitt i gave up on the P4P rankings.
I remember watching some UFC Countdowns, in wich GSP was scheduled to fight. Rogan and Dana would say: "GSP, the best p4p...".
In another Countdown, in wich Silva was fighting, Rogan and Dana: "Silva, the best p4p".
When i'm reading a column on espn, they have it in a specific order. On cnn it's another ranking.
If you ask GSp, he says Fedor is number 1, if you ask Fedor he says Silva...i gave up on p4p. For me, it's just who's the best WW, or the best LW or the best MW....you get the idea.

It's like saying Johnny Depp is a better actor than Brad Pitt or something like that.:confused02:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

limba said:


> I admitt i gave up on the P4P rankings.
> I remember watching some UFC Countdowns, in wich GSP was scheduled to fight. Rogan and Dana would say: "GSP, the best p4p...".
> In another Countdown, in wich Silva was fighting, Rogan and Dana: "Silva, the best p4p".
> When i'm reading a column on espn, they have it in a specific order. On cnn it's another ranking.
> ...


P4P exists for the purpose of having something to argue about. For journalists it is an easy opinion piece to write and for message boards it is just required filler. Joe Rogan is a dumbass also and thinks every impressive fighter he sees is the p4p best.


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

oldfan said:


> this is the ufc section y'know. As for Mousasi, honestly I haven't seen enough of his fights to have a strong opinion about him except that he probably doesn't belong in a pfp debate yet. I'm looking forward to his fight with mo to find out more about both. If mo is only half as good as he thinks he is and mousasi beats him then obviously he's the goat.
> 
> You people who take this pfp stuff seriously fire away with the bad rep. Don't forget to call me ugly names and do it anonymously


I didn't know it was UFC exclusive "my bad". I'd have to agree with you about the fight with Lowal it should really be a defining fight for both of them. I know he dumped the MW right away but my understanding was because it had more to do with moving to StrikeForce then making the cut, he looked pretty good at MW considering how much he dropped. He's definetly more suited to LHW. Also a big thanks to M D for the neg rep help, I wasn't able to reply becuase I don't have enough posts. I'll just let sleeping _ _ _holes lie, retaliating would just be stooping to their level.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

dave-stjohn said:


> why is it just the UFC fighters that are coming up in this post? Gegard Mousasi has done some pretty amazing things fighting at LW he won the Dream tourney, went to StrikeForce and destroyed Babalo at LHW for that title and then held his own in a exhibition match against Fedor, this guy is a beast and can beat you anyway from an upkick KTFO, strikes KTFO or submission, he fights to finish.


Because Mousasi fights at MW, where Anderson Silva lives, and at LHW where Machida and Shogun live. Do you think his record shows he's better than any of these guys? I think p4p should be about what a fighter has done, not what he might do. Mousasi would have to beat Anderson himself to steal his spot at MW, and at LHW he would have to match what Anderson, BJ and GSP have done in their respective divisions to then be considered a top p4p fighter.

So when Mousasi beats Anderson, or when he beats Machida, Shogun, Rampage and Evans with ease, we can start using the words Mousasi and p4p in a sentence that serves the man well.

I wouldn't be so sure he'll beat King Mo anyway, I think he's facing someone with a lot of talent and the base to go far in MMA. I will not be surprised if King Mo takes Mousasi out.


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

Hiro said:


> Because Mousasi fights at MW, where Anderson Silva lives, and at LHW where Machida and Shogun live. Do you think his record shows he's better than any of these guys? I think p4p should be about what a fighter has done, not what he might do. Mousasi would have to beat Anderson himself to steal his spot at MW, and at LHW he would have to match what Anderson, BJ and GSP have done in their respective divisions to then be considered a top p4p fighter.
> 
> So when Mousasi beats Anderson, or when he beats Machida, Shogun, Rampage and Evans with ease, we can start using the words Mousasi and p4p in a sentence that serves the man well.
> 
> I wouldn't be so sure he'll beat King Mo anyway, I think he's facing someone with a lot of talent and the base to go far in MMA. I will not be surprised if King Mo takes Mousasi out.


That reasoning can also be used to eliminate Fedor, which so many seem to believe is the greatest there's ever been. My thoughts were purely speculative as Mousasi doesn't fight in the UFC, so yes you are correct about me refering to him in regards to his potential as opposed to who he's fought. You must admit though that he has a pretty good record 23-2-1 I believe with something like 14 straight wins and having watched him fight 5 or 6 times I think he would do well against Silva or Machida. I guess it's the same knock against Fedor, they don't fight UFC fighters and like it or not the UFC is the standard for now. As far as him and Mo, like I said earlier "I think this will be a defining fight for both of them". Mo has looked really good and I'm sure he would have beat Frye but Frye backed out. This should be a great fight either way and worth the price of the PPV alone, unless it goes network for free and then I'll giggle like a school girl. Thanks for sharing your opinion.


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## mmamasta (Jan 10, 2008)

limba said:


> I admitt i gave up on the P4P rankings.
> I remember watching some UFC Countdowns, in wich GSP was scheduled to fight. Rogan and Dana would say: "GSP, the best p4p...".
> In another Countdown, in wich Silva was fighting, Rogan and Dana: "Silva, the best p4p".
> When i'm reading a column on espn, they have it in a specific order. On cnn it's another ranking.
> ...


Have to agree to disagree. Now, fortunately for both of us, we can just maturely talk about it instead of throwing insults/neg rep around. To be honest, to your point of everyone saying someone else is the best P4P, I would say...and? The fact that Fedor/Silva/BJ/GSP/etc. are humble enough to say that they believe someone else is the "best pound for pound fighter on the planet", I don't think in any way says that's null and void. To Rogan (now keep in mind I am a HUGE Rogan fan), LMFAO, come on, if we kept track of all the stupid shit that flies out of his mouth, we would have one of the best audio mash-ups ever (someone should really do that). So, just saying they have different opinions, doesn't really mean that we can't have a P4P conversation.

Now to bring this point back home, I think it is REALLY hard to actually quantify, but I think P4P is a legitimate thing that's fun for people to talk about (because of it's difficulty to be defined). But if you break anything down enough (over-all technique, heart, history, record, 'win by', etc), you can have a victor.

But, I have to make a quick point. Being an actor (have done blah blah, went to school for it, blah blah...I hope we're understanding I have 'legit' credentials but don't feel like boring everyone with them). One absolutely could say Johnny Depp is a better actor than Brad Pitt, they'd be wrong, but they could say it. People think that acting is a subjective thing, as some people view MMA, but in reality everyone has different styles, but if you boil it down to quantifying characteristics, you are always gonna have a winner. In this case, Brad Pitt, in the case of the OP (however long ago that was), it's BJ.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

dave-stjohn said:


> That reasoning can also be used to eliminate Fedor, which so many seem to believe is the greatest there's ever been. My thoughts were purely speculative as Mousasi doesn't fight in the UFC, so yes you are correct about me refering to him in regards to his potential as opposed to who he's fought. You must admit though that he has a pretty good record 23-2-1 I believe with something like 14 straight wins and having watched him fight 5 or 6 times I think he would do well against Silva or Machida. I guess it's the same knock against Fedor, they don't fight UFC fighters and like it or not the UFC is the standard for now. As far as him and Mo, like I said earlier "I think this will be a defining fight for both of them". Mo has looked really good and I'm sure he would have beat Frye but Frye backed out. This should be a great fight either way and worth the price of the PPV alone, unless it goes network for free and then I'll giggle like a school girl. Thanks for sharing your opinion.


Fedor has faced better competition than Mousasi. Nog alone is a better win on the record than any fighters Mousasi has beat, not to mention the destruction of fighters 30 pounds heavier than him. Fedor can't be considered in line with the top 3, but I still have him ahead of Mousasi. Not to take anything away from Gegard though, his record although lacking top fighters is very impressive. He's clearly an elite fighter but still has some proving to do imo. A couple of top names and he will be right up there with Fedor, but still behind the top 3. 

I agree, Mousasi vs King Mo is a huge fight. Mousasi is more proven but I think King Mo is a phenom and a future star with talent to fit. I fancy King Mo to take it to be honest, and if he does I'll probably start saying he'll be UFC champion in the future. I don't think there's a wrestler of his caliber with the same sort of athleticism, speed, power and natural fighting ability in the whole of MMA. I think I might have just started the King Mo war wagon.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Hiro said:


> I don't think there's a wrestler of his caliber with the same sort of athleticism, speed, power and natural fighting ability in the whole of MMA. I think I might have just started the King Mo war wagon.


Bones.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

osmium said:


> Bones.


I can't find much on Jon Jones' wrestling background, but here's King Mo's:



> * 2008 U.S. Senior National Championships: -84kg 1st Place
> * 2008 Golden Grand Prix International: 2nd Place
> * 2007 U.S. Senior National Championships: -96kg 2nd Place
> * 2007 Golden Grand Prix International: 1st Place
> ...





> _From 2007-2008, Lawal was the #1 ranked wrestler in the country in the -94kg division and was considered by many to be the best amateur wrestler in the United States, regardless of weight class_


But yeah, I get the point. I was forgetting Jones for a minute there, he's another force. Imagine the current UFC LHW division with Gegard and King Mo added to the fire.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Hiro said:


> I can't find much on Jon Jones' wrestling background, but here's King Mo's:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The credentials don't really matter. Bones just dominated a guy wrestling that Randy couldn't. I've seen Mo fight several times I think he has potential but I'm not buying the hype yet he has fought garbage. I'm betting on Gegard subbing him in the first he is taking a huge leap in skill from whitehead to Mousassi.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

BJ Penn is BJ Penn. He's great. But I believe Rossen and many others are putting too much stock in his "moving up" as a means of determining his status.

In UFC, he's 1-2 at welterweight, and his one win, though it was in a championship fight, was a full six years ago. And that win has since been avenged.

He has no other significant victories above lightweight.

I agree that he shouldn't be penalized for his efforts at higher weights. Indeed, he should be commended. But it's using flawed logic to suggest that he's somehow better than GSP based on the those efforts.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

osmium said:


> The credentials don't really matter. Bones just dominated a guy wrestling that Randy couldn't. I've seen Mo fight several times I think he has potential but I'm not buying the hype yet he has fought garbage. I'm betting on Gegard subbing him in the first he is taking a huge leap in skill from whitehead to Mousassi.


You could well be right. Credentials do matter, but in the case of Jones he has something special. He mixes in some judo type throws too, his takedowns are freakish.


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

Hiro said:


> Fedor has faced better competition than Mousasi. Nog alone is a better win on the record than any fighters Mousasi has beat, not to mention the destruction of fighters 30 pounds heavier than him. Fedor can't be considered in line with the top 3, but I still have him ahead of Mousasi. Not to take anything away from Gegard though, his record although lacking top fighters is very impressive. He's clearly an elite fighter but still has some proving to do imo. A couple of top names and he will be right up there with Fedor, but still behind the top 3.
> 
> I agree, Mousasi vs King Mo is a huge fight. Mousasi is more proven but I think King Mo is a phenom and a future star with talent to fit. I fancy King Mo to take it to be honest, and if he does I'll probably start saying he'll be UFC champion in the future. I don't think there's a wrestler of his caliber with the same sort of athleticism, speed, power and natural fighting ability in the whole of MMA. I think I might have just started the King Mo war wagon.


I would have to agree with you. Fedor fought Choi twice I believe and he was probably a foot taller and almost a 100 lbs heavier, yet Fedor beat him both times.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

dave-stjohn said:


> I would have to agree with you. Fedor fought Choi twice I believe and he was probably a foot taller and almost a 100 lbs heavier, yet Fedor beat him both times.


Exactly.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

SideWays222 said:


> Lets see how he does against Edger before we get crazy here... ya?





VolcomX311 said:


> If the way BJ raped and finished his last 4 number one contenders is any indication as to the outcome, then I don't think it's all THAT crazy to not be on the edge of the seat about Edgar.
> 
> BJ Penn is a registered number one contender sex offender.





SideWays222 said:


> Edgar has shocked me before.. is all im saying.




Ahhh i just love this right now.


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## js9234 (Apr 8, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> Ahhh i just love this right now.


LOL :thumb02:


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

js9234 said:


> LOL :thumb02:


Are you a jarhead at NTA?


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## punchbag (Mar 1, 2010)

oldfan said:


> He definitely doesn't get his due from the fan boys. Bj has literally traveled the world looking for the greatest challenges. Think about it people, when he took matt hughes belt there were no ww's in the ufc to challenge him so he left the belt and the ufc behind and went and fought machida.
> 
> In my opinion when silva steps up to brock or Gsp takes on machida then and only then can they be compared to BJ on the pfp scale.


Anderson fighting Brock in my opinion is a stupid fight that does nothing for the credibility of mma, Brock is a monster who makes most heavyweights look small.
Anderson who is able to fight at middleweight don't forget, fighting someone who could be in a super heavyweight division, to me makes no sense.
Anderson would be able to win on points with strikes with hit and run tactics granted, but what if Brock took Anderson down how the f*** would he be able to get the guy off of him regardless of skill. A G.S.P/WAND fight makes much more sense to me or even any of the names at LHW shogun,chuck,rampage,jones,,machida etc


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## machidaisgod (Aug 14, 2009)

BJ Penn is no longer significant at p4p, his nuggers ahve said once he cleans out lw then he will clean out ww, well he just got owned by a true lw that bj had at least 10lbs on. So I guess the cleaning out of the ww division will have to wait....too bad I was looking forward to him destroying Kos, Fitch, and all the other nobody ww that he would just clean up and throw out. Well I guess that is worth waiting for:confused03:


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