# Illegal submissions?



## DangerDanger

knee twist and neck crank


----------



## joshua7789

I dont know about those ones, but im pretty sure your not supposed to do a "dirty uncle", also known as the "downstairs meat hook".


----------



## hellholming

neck cranks are legal... I've seen many people try them when they can't get a RNC sinked in.


----------



## WouldLuv2FightU

Yea neck cranks are legal..

Any small joint manipulation is not though. Fingerbars are illegal and extremely dangerous.


----------



## Deftsound

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> Yea neck cranks are legal..
> 
> Any small joint manipulation is not though. Fingerbars are illegal and extremely dangerous.


fingerbar? damn that sounds painful...


----------



## Liddellianenko

fishhooks (hooking a finger into the cheek and pulling), hair pulls, knee twists and small joint manipulations are illegal, all others as far as I know are legal.

Though I've always wondered why you never see the "**** choke" (pardon the name) in MMA. Seems like the easiest thing to do from the mount would be to just put both hands on the neck and squeeze.. doesn't seem to be anything explicitly in the rules against it as far as I can tell, and seems it would be fairly effective. Maybe it is illegal too?


----------



## osmium

Liddellianenko said:


> fishhooks (hooking a finger into the cheek and pulling), hair pulls, knee twists and small joint manipulations are illegal, all others as far as I know are legal.
> 
> Though I've always wondered why you never see the "**** choke" (pardon the name) in MMA. Seems like the easiest thing to do from the mount would be to just put both hands on the neck and squeeze.. doesn't seem to be anything explicitly in the rules against it as far as I can tell, and seems it would be fairly effective. Maybe it is illegal too?


Didn't Wandy do a **** choke punch to the face combo to finish jardine?


----------



## Servatose

Small joint manipulation is a pretty vague term. Are they only referring to fingers and toes? I don't believe I've ever seen a fighter attempt a wrist-related submission, or twisting the wrist toward the hand to gain control of the arm to perhaps procure an arm bar. Also, a frontal choke like the "****" choke is highly susceptible to simply tucking your chin down. Not to mention, it's not a blood choke, it could take a long time to actually submit a strong, struggling opponent. It would be much more a nuisance than simply punching someone in the head, or using it for anything other than temporarily trying to keep their head in place for a punch or elbow, in my opinion.


----------



## Halfraq9

Liddellianenko said:


> fishhooks (hooking a finger into the cheek and pulling), hair pulls, knee twists and small joint manipulations are illegal, all others as far as I know are legal.
> 
> Though I've always wondered why you never see the "**** choke" (pardon the name) in MMA. Seems like the easiest thing to do from the mount would be to just put both hands on the neck and squeeze.. doesn't seem to be anything explicitly in the rules against it as far as I can tell, and seems it would be fairly effective. Maybe it is illegal too?


One of my coaches has started doing this. Its uncomfortable but not a real finishing move..


----------



## Jesy Blue

"**** Choke" is an air choke, which takes a long time to make you pass out, especially if you have good cardio.

it also occupies both hands with no great leverage, so it would be easy to buck you off, use a great hip escape/sweep from bottom. also, every martial art in the book has 22 different arm bars from a choke before you even get past yellow belt; you'd just be setting yourself up for a quick tap or snap.


----------



## alizio

the two handed "****" choke doesnt really lock in tho, thats the real problem. Guys can roll out or straight power out unlike RNCs and triangle chokes and such that lock in. I would still love to see a big fight finished with it tho, i wonder what Joe would say??


----------



## CornbreadBB

The _**** choke_ does work in situations if you use them correctly. Of course it depends on the situation and the age of the....um. It works.


----------



## steveo412

I have found the **** choke is really only effective on a struggling underage girl jogging through the park late at night.


----------



## Hawndo

Doesn't the **** choke fall under;

Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, *grabbing the trachea*

which is illegal?


----------



## WouldLuv2FightU

Servatose said:


> Small joint manipulation is a pretty vague term. Are they only referring to fingers and toes? I don't believe I've ever seen a fighter attempt a wrist-related submission, or twisting the wrist toward the hand to gain control of the arm to perhaps procure an arm bar.


Yea it is pretty vague I was thinking the same thing. I see ankle locks often enough but I don't remember ever seeing wrist locks. Maybe it's hard to do with the gloves? I dunno but I did Aikido for a long time and wrist locks are like second nature to me. I have used them in a few street fights, and they always work. I think I saw Karo use a wrist manipulating throw when he fought Dave Strasser back in the day. It looked exactly like one of the throws I learned in Judo that employs wrist manipulation. 

How easy is it to get out of a "cop armbar"? You know when you're on your belly and the guy has your back and decides to take one of your arms and torque it behind you real hard. Wonder how that would go down in an MMA match.


----------



## alizio

how about a nipple or stomach twist? lol


----------



## imrik32

Liddellianenko said:


> fishhooks (hooking a finger into the cheek and pulling), hair pulls, knee twists and small joint manipulations are illegal, all others as far as I know are legal.
> 
> Though I've always wondered why you never see the "**** choke" (pardon the name) in MMA. Seems like the easiest thing to do from the mount would be to just put both hands on the neck and squeeze.. doesn't seem to be anything explicitly in the rules against it as far as I can tell, and seems it would be fairly effective. Maybe it is illegal too?


Why? because you'd get swept so fast it wouldn't be funny, and then all the fans can laugh at your for being a retard. That is why no one does the aforementioned choke.


----------



## imrik32

Hawndo said:


> Doesn't the **** choke fall under;
> 
> Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, *grabbing the trachea*
> 
> which is illegal?


Choking and squeezing the trachea are two different things.


----------



## xeberus

dude you can do neck cranks.

but the best submissions are illegal. im talking the eye gouge, fish hook, throat squeeze, groin grab/smash. they take almost no skill and are the quickest and most effective :thumb02:


----------



## jcal

Liddellianenko said:


> fishhooks (hooking a finger into the cheek and pulling), hair pulls, knee twists and small joint manipulations are illegal, all others as far as I know are legal.
> 
> Though I've always wondered why you never see the "**** choke" (pardon the name) in MMA. Seems like the easiest thing to do from the mount would be to just put both hands on the neck and squeeze.. doesn't seem to be anything explicitly in the rules against it as far as I can tell, and seems it would be fairly effective. Maybe it is illegal too?


 I dont think there illegal, I just dont think that their worth the effort. When you grab his throat you also have to pull the back of his head up at the same time and all he has to do is buck or roll or put his fingers straight into your throat. You see you cant maintain position when applying a "rake choke". Its also called a rake choke because you use your hand like a rake across his neck. FYI


----------



## jcal

Are wrist locks legal? Like from side mount?


----------



## xeberus

jcal said:


> I dont think there illegal, I just dont think that their worth the effort. When you grab his throat you also have to pull the back of his head up at the same time and all he has to do is buck or roll or put his fingers straight into your throat. You see you cant maintain position when applying a "rake choke". Its also called a rake choke because you use your hand like a rake across his neck. FYI


Its gotta be illegal, im more than strong enough to completely collapse a normal persons throat and im only 165lbs.


----------



## jcal

xeberus said:


> Its gotta be illegal, im more than strong enough to completely collapse a normal persons throat and im only 165lbs.


Im not really sure xeberus. Ive never seen anyone in MMA try one. But in my grapplin class, ive had guys try that choke and it was pretty useless. The pressure was their to put somebody out, but if you buck or roll or even push his wrist away he loses the hold, cause like I said he needs both hands to pull it off, 1 behind the head pulling it in towards him and 1 raked across the guys throat pushing and squeezing down. How about an elbow to throat from the mount are they legal? How could they tell if it was an accident or not?


----------



## WouldLuv2FightU

jcal said:


> Are wrist locks legal? Like from side mount?


I been wondering that too. I dunno if a wrist is considered a small joint. Ankles aren't I guess so why should wrists? I think the gloves cause a problem for most fighters. I think the Judo guys know how to do them better than other fighters though. Like I said I'm pretty sure I've seen Karo use wrist manipulation at least once, probably more with all the throws he's used in the past. Still no wrist "locks" though :dunno:


----------



## jcal

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> I been wondering that too. I dunno if a wrist is considered a small joint. Ankles aren't I guess so why should wrists? I think the gloves cause a problem for most fighters. I think the Judo guys know how to do them better than other fighters though. Like I said I'm pretty sure I've seen Karo use wrist manipulation at least once, probably more with all the throws he's used in the past. Still no wrist "locks" though :dunno:


Yeah its gotta be harder with gloves on. They should be legal though IMO, i mean if you can use a toehold why wouldnt you be a to do a wrist lock? Interesting! Double standards I guess, just like elbows to the top of the head like Silva vs Lutter. :confused02::


----------



## Mattriel

jcal said:


> Yeah its gotta be harder with gloves on. They should be legal though IMO, i mean if you can use a toehold why wouldnt you be a to do a wrist lock? Interesting! Double standards I guess, just like elbows to the top of the head like Silva vs Lutter. :confused02::


They also have wrapping on their wrists so that could make manipulation of them more difficult.


----------



## jcal

osmium said:


> Didn't Wandy do a **** choke punch to the face combo to finish jardine?


Yeah, Wandy was controlling Keiths head with his hand in the rake choke position but it wasnt a choke cause he wasnt pulling on the back of the head with his other hand, he was smarter and just kept keiths head in position to get clocked, exactly like Rampage did to Randalman in pride. 2 awesome finishes.


----------



## WouldLuv2FightU

jcal said:


> Yeah, Wandy was controlling Keiths head with his hand in the rake choke position but it wasnt a choke cause he wasnt pulling on the back of the head with his other hand, he was smarter and just kept keiths head in position to get clocked, exactly like Rampage did to Randalman in pride. 2 awesome finishes.


It seems like I remember Keith doing the same exact thing to Griffin.


----------



## TERMINATOR

Member the good early ufc's when you could sink in the wee wee bar?


----------



## jcal

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> It seems like I remember Keith doing the same exact thing to Griffin.


Yeah I think your right. Not to say nothing bad about Forrest cause i like and respect him but the way his arms and head were flailing when keith was punchimg him looked pretty funny. lol

What about an elbow to the neck like from the mount or guard or anywhere on top? Is that legal? I mean you can elbow the face the forehead the chest the stomach but what about the neck? Is that legal? Or even puch the neck, I wonder if that happened what they would do?


----------



## Whitehorizon

Are pressure points illegal?


----------



## Mattriel

Whitehorizon said:


> Are pressure points illegal?


I believe they are


----------



## kano666

From the Unified Rules for Mixed Martial Arts:

13:46-24A.15 Fouls

(a) The following are fouls and will result in penalties if committed:

1. Butting with the head;
*2. Eye gouging of any kind;*
3. Biting or spitting at an opponent;
*4. Hair pulling;
5. Fish hooking;*
*6. Groin attacks of any kind;
7. Intentionally placing a finger in any opponent’s orifice;*
8. Downward pointing of elbow strikes;
*9. Small joint manipulation;*
10. Strikes to the spine or back of the head;
11. Heel kicks to the kidney;
*12. Throat strikes of any kind;
13. Clawing, pinching, twisting the flesh or grabbing the clavicle;*
14. Kicking the head of a grounded fighter;
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded fighter;
16. Stomping of a grounded fighter;
17. The use of abusive language in fighting area;
18. Any unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to opponent;
19. Attacking an opponent on or during the break;
20. Attacking an opponent who is under the referee’s care at the time;
21. Timidity (avoiding contact, or consistent dropping of mouthpiece, or faking an injury);
22. Interference from a mixed martial artists seconds;
23. Throwing an opponent out of the fighting area;
24. Flagrant disregard of the referee’s instructions;
25. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his or her head or neck.

I bolded the submission ones and the throat strike one which people kept mentioning. I feel like some of these are never seen in big events, others sometimes result in fouls, and others seem to happen but not draw a foul (#11, #25).


----------



## HexRei

Hawndo said:


> Doesn't the **** choke fall under;
> 
> Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, *grabbing the trachea*
> 
> which is illegal?


"grabbing the trachea" is grabbing behind it and pulling outward, to rip it out. Not inward pressure like from a choke.


----------



## HexRei

Hawndo said:


> Doesn't the **** choke fall under;
> 
> Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, *grabbing the trachea*
> 
> which is illegal?


"grabbing the trachea" is grabbing behind it and pulling outward, to rip it out. Not inward pressure like from a choke. But it would become illegal if it was a strike rather than a choke.


----------



## jcal

kano666 said:


> From the Unified Rules for Mixed Martial Arts:
> 
> 13:46-24A.15 Fouls
> 
> (a) The following are fouls and will result in penalties if committed:
> 
> 1. Butting with the head;
> *2. Eye gouging of any kind;*
> 3. Biting or spitting at an opponent;
> *4. Hair pulling;
> 5. Fish hooking;*
> *6. Groin attacks of any kind;
> 7. Intentionally placing a finger in any opponent’s orifice;*
> 8. Downward pointing of elbow strikes;
> *9. Small joint manipulation;*
> 10. Strikes to the spine or back of the head;
> 11. Heel kicks to the kidney;
> *12. Throat strikes of any kind;
> 13. Clawing, pinching, twisting the flesh or grabbing the clavicle;*
> 14. Kicking the head of a grounded fighter;
> 15. Kneeing the head of a grounded fighter;
> 16. Stomping of a grounded fighter;
> 17. The use of abusive language in fighting area;
> 18. Any unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to opponent;
> 19. Attacking an opponent on or during the break;
> 20. Attacking an opponent who is under the referee’s care at the time;
> 21. Timidity (avoiding contact, or consistent dropping of mouthpiece, or faking an injury);
> 22. Interference from a mixed martial artists seconds;
> 23. Throwing an opponent out of the fighting area;
> 24. Flagrant disregard of the referee’s instructions;
> 25. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his or her head or neck.
> 
> I bolded the submission ones and the throat strike one which people kept mentioning. I feel like some of these are never seen in big events, others sometimes result in fouls, and others seem to happen but not draw a foul (#11, #25).


Well there it is there! Thanks.:thumbsup:


----------



## Mirage445

Obviously some rules are more strict than others...



kano666 said:


> From the Unified Rules for Mixed Martial Arts:
> 
> 13:46-24A.15 Fouls
> 
> (a) The following are fouls and will result in penalties if committed:
> 
> 1. Butting with the head;
> 2. Eye gouging of any kind;
> 3. Biting or spitting at an opponent;
> 4. Hair pulling;
> 5. Fish hooking;
> 6. Groin attacks of any kind;
> 7. Intentionally placing a finger in any opponent’s orifice;
> 8. Downward pointing of elbow strikes;
> 9. Small joint manipulation;
> 10. Strikes to the spine or back of the head;
> 11. Heel kicks to the kidney;
> 12. Throat strikes of any kind;
> 13. Clawing, pinching, twisting the flesh or grabbing the clavicle;
> 14. Kicking the head of a grounded fighter;
> 15. Kneeing the head of a grounded fighter;
> 16. Stomping of a grounded fighter;
> *17. The use of abusive language in fighting area;*
> 18. Any unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to opponent;
> 19. Attacking an opponent on or during the break;
> 20. Attacking an opponent who is under the referee’s care at the time;
> 21. Timidity (avoiding contact, or consistent dropping of mouthpiece, or faking an injury);
> 22. Interference from a mixed martial artists seconds;
> 23. Throwing an opponent out of the fighting area;
> 24. Flagrant disregard of the referee’s instructions;
> 25. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his or her head or neck.
> 
> I bolded the submission ones and the throat strike one which people kept mentioning. I feel like some of these are never seen in big events, others sometimes result in fouls, and others seem to happen but not draw a foul (#11, #25).


Lol, the Diaz brothers would have been done competing looooong ago.


----------

