# Rampage admits to using TRT before Bader fight



## HorsepoweR (Jun 1, 2007)

http://bjpenn.com/mobile/mmanews/?wptouch_view=normal&wptouch_redirect_nonce=fad3d56428&wptouch_redirect=%2Fmmanews%2F2012%2F03%2F01%2Frampage-jackson-admits-to-using-testosterone-trt-prior-to-bader-fight-15946.html%3Fbjcache%3Dm22177089




> “I almost pulled out but then I went to see the doctor and he told me to talk to an age-management doctor. So I went and talked to them and they tested me and said my testosterone was low; they prescribed me testosterone, to bring my testosterone levels back up to levels where I can be like… so that I am the same as young people, like when I was 25, and it would help build my knee up. I hurt my knee like a month ago and I only did three shots of testosterone but it put a lot of weight on me, a lot of muscle on me but it healed me knee up good enough to where I could fight.”
> 
> “I gave myself small doses and that shit immediately changed me, that’s why I am saying now I am not going to retire. I am not gonna retire no time soon, it’s just unfortunate that I got this injury. I started hitting it up pretty good, I still gotta take care of my knee but I feel like a 25 year old again. My sex life changed, I was back to five times a night like when I was 25, straight up.”
> 
> “So I spoke to the UFC and they were like ‘yeah, a lot of fighters are probably doing it but not telling anyone.’ Me, I keep it real, I am not doing anything wrong. Its legal and I am not abusing it and I am not going over certain levels. From what I learned about it, when I got tested my levels my levels were really low and the doctor was telling me that athletes can burn testosterone.”


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

I'm sure a lot of fighters are doing it and not admitting it.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

As much as I respect that he has the balls to openly admit to it, I still find the idea and use of it absolutely disgusting in professional athletes.


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## systemdnb (Dec 7, 2008)

So did he get away with this because of the card being in Japan? I know you can be approved by different states but he obviously didn't run into that this time around. Jeez, he's only 34 right?


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Ryan1522 said:


> As much as I respect that he has the balls to openly admit to it, I still find the idea and use of it absolutely disgusting in professional athletes.


Indeed.

I'm disappointed.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

systemdnb said:


> So did he get away with this because of the card being in Japan? I know you can be approved by different states but he obviously didn't run into that this time around. Jeez, he's only 34 right?


TRT is perfectly legal and allowed by commissions as long as a doctor is prescribing it and when you test, your testosterone levels remain within the normal range stated in the rules policy.

Remember this interview guys?

http://www.mmamania.com/2012/1/18/2715536/rampage-jackson-on-king-mo-lawals-steroids-drug-test-failure-its-just


Quinton quote: 

"He talk a big game, he say all this stuff, he's calling people bums and everything and it's just karma. Look at him. He's a very cocky individual. *I feel like any fighter that has to use steroids to go in a cage and fight somebody is not a true fighter. *Some people have problems, like okay, go to the doctor and get it sorted out. There are some fighters out there who are of age and they're doing the right things to stay healthy and stay competitive but somebody blatantly taking anabolic steroids to get in the cage, it's a sad case. It's a sad case."

I guess he doesn't realize testosterone is indeed a steroid lol.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Wow not only is Rampage a hypocrite, he also lost that fight handily with his TRT. 

Kind of sad Quentin.


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

Ryan1522 said:


> Remember this interview guys?
> 
> http://www.mmamania.com/2012/1/18/2715536/rampage-jackson-on-king-mo-lawals-steroids-drug-test-failure-its-just
> 
> ...


I guess you didnt bother to read the sentence right after the one you bolded?


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

TRT doesn't equate to anabolic steroids. Rogan's on TRT as well AND he works out regularly and he looks about as average as it comes, but that's a bit anecdotle.

TRT "is suppose" to bring you to a healthly baseline of test relative to a healthy male, if you are indeed taking it as a result of low T. Anabolic Steroids take your test waaaaaaaay above a homeostatic level, which is what's responsible for the unnatural hypertrophic effects.

I can see the argument where TRT=cheating, which I'm not offering an opinion on, but TRT does not equate to Anabolic Steroids, not even close.

A lot, if not most people 30 and over could potentiallly qualify for TRT. Testosterone drops a certain percentage each year following 25, so it's not hard to drop below a "normal level" of test when your 30+ of age.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

Oh I read it. He's a hypocrite. He's saying it's not cool to use anabolic steroids, but when there is a loop hole in the system for 34 year old men to use TRT (which testicular cancer patients are prescribed), then he's saying, 'by all means take advantage of that.'

What a joke.



VolcomX311 said:


> TRT doesn't equate to anabolic steroids. Rogan's on TRT as well AND he works out regularly and he looks about as average as it comes, but that's a bit anecdotle.
> 
> TRT "is suppose" to bring you to a healthly baseline of test relative to a healthy male, if you are indeed taking it as a result of low T. Anabolic Steroids take your test waaaaaaaay above a homeostatic level, which is what's responsible for the unnatural hypertrophic effects.
> 
> I can see the argument where TRT=cheating, which I'm not offering an opinion on, but TRT does not equate to Anabolic Steroids, not even close.


What Rampage is doing is technically not cheating becasue he is likely within normal ranges, but to me it's taking advantage of a loop hole in the system, which is cheating to me.

Cheating is cheating. The degree of cheating is not the problem at hand imo.

I wouldn't call Joe Rogan average either. He is in pretty damn good shape.

Joe Rogan= Not Average

Tom Brady=Average


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

Aslong as he's in the normal limits I don't care if he uses it or not.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

I think that's a younger picture of Joe. Joe today isn't that lean or muscular. His best days were when he was in his early 20's doing TKD tournaments. He's a bit heavy these days (relative to his younger years).


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

VolcomX311 said:


> TRT doesn't equate to anabolic steroids. Rogan's on TRT as well AND he works out regularly and he looks about as average as it comes, but that's a bit anecdotle.
> 
> TRT "is suppose" to bring you to a healthly baseline of test relative to a healthy male, if you are indeed taking it as a result of low T. Anabolic Steroids take your test waaaaaaaay above a homeostatic level, which is what's responsible for the unnatural hypertrophic effects.
> 
> ...


It's funny because you have no idea what you are talking about.


TRT consists of steroid injections used on people who naturally have low testosterone(due to age) and brings them back to their levels they had in there 20s.

It's disgusting and an abomination.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Just retire and go away. Sad he used to be my favorite fighter back in the day.


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## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

Ryan1522 said:


> Joe Rogan= Not Average
> 
> Tom Brady=Average


Did you photoshop Rogan's head on Palhares?


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

He's still jacked.


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## systemdnb (Dec 7, 2008)

Yea that's an older pic of Joe. He's been sleeved out for a while now.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Well...it's official, TRT is a bunch of bullshit.

Last I checked Rampage just fought for the title and fought like he fought all his other fights, what a bunch of bull crap. 

Qualifying for administration of TRT is like qualifying for medicinal marijuana...only it's at the professional level, so you know for certain it's a bunch of bullshit.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> It's funny because you have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> TRT consists of steroid injections used on people who naturally have low testosterone(due to age) and brings them back to their levels they had in there 20s.
> ...


My main points.

TRT does not equate to Anabolic Steroids. I should have said TRT does not equate to a normal steroid cycle (TRT 200mg of Test Ethenate every 5days vs 500-750mg test ethenate a week). Also, some people use DHEA as a form of TRT, and I can't speak on which one Rampage was on. I could have been clearer, I'll give you that.

TRT is meant to bring you back to healthy levels of test, which is pretty much what you just said. Being that "healthy" is a male in his prime, age 18-25'ish.

Cheating, not cheating, I didn't offer an opinion on.


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

Ryan1522 said:


> Joe Rogan= Not Average
> 
> Tom Brady=Average


Are you really comparing a picture of Rogan and his peak to Brady as a 21 year old kid coming out of college. I am sure if you look at Brady now he looks completely different.


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## BOMDC (Feb 13, 2011)

Man the people here are on one extreme or the other. First of all there are plenty of people out there (old and young)who have severe low test which can affect them in a variety of ways negatively. I agree also that it is a loophole and some people obviously abuse it. I think its dumb though to call someone a cheater if they have documented low T by someone reputable and use it, when I'm sure there's a favorite fighter of yours out there who knows how to cycle correctly and uses straight up gear during training and hasn't gotten caught.


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## HaVoK (Dec 31, 2006)

I am aware just about every Pro Athlete uses Testosterone. It is ignorant to think otherwise.

But, when King Mo tested positive it was Jackson who insulted him and made accusations during an interview with Karyn Bryant. He made sweeping assumptions about any fighter who uses TRT or questionable supplements.

There is no guidelines regarding Testosterone levels. Well, no laws. It is left up to Doctor discretion. There are many ways to get it. Many Doctors actually give you a take-home piss test. If you want TRT it is easy and legal to get.

The reason most need TRT is because they used Anabolics in the past. They used them without the proper PCT (Post Cycle Therapy). Without good PCT ones natural test production would almost come to a complete stop.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

Mike28 said:


> Are you really comparing a picture of Rogan and his peak to Brady as a 21 year old kid coming out of college. I am sure if you look at Brady now he looks completely different.


lol point taken, but I needed an average person to fill the void and he fit the bill. Insert random average man picture so I don't offend you. 


Point is Rogan is not average.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

I don't understand the point of view of those who look negatively at testosterone replacement. No matter how many of their opinions I read, the pro-trt argument holds a lot more logic. Of course it can be abused, but that's why it is monitored.

I'll keep reading both sides of the argument since I am no expert, but the argument seems lob-sided to me. (Which is probably why it happens to be not only legal, but encouraged by doctors.)


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

BOMDC said:


> Man the people here are on one extreme or the other. First of all there are plenty of people out there (old and young)who have severe low test which can affect them in a variety of ways negatively. I agree also that it is a loophole and some people obviously abuse it. I think its dumb though to call someone a cheater if they have documented low T by someone reputable and use it, when I'm sure there's a favorite fighter of yours out there who knows how to cycle correctly and uses straight up gear during training and hasn't gotten caught.


I have no problem with people outside of professional sports who use TRT bc they have low testosterone levels as a result of being elderly, having testicular cancer etc.

I've said this before in other threads and I'll say it again, TRT is not meant for alpha male UFC fighters in the prime of their lives. I don't care what their testosterone levels are at, they should not be allowed to use it. 

What's next gene therapy to increase the number of fast twitch muscle fibers an athlete has so they can perform with a higher level of strength and agility?

If you cannot naturally produce what you need to in order to compete, then you are not cut out to compete anymore or to begin with. 

I personally believe that TRT doesn't even give a fighter a huge advantage over the other. Skills far outweigh any drug you can take, but when Fighter A and Fighter B are completely at the same level and Fighter B is taking a PED, Fighter B is probably going to get the W. 

Additionally, This is a loop hole and allowance of any PED including TRT (even if it is only bringing levels back to when you were a young buck) is a slippery slope.

Also, **** you beardsley for the neg rep and your comment "TRT is not a steroid". You uneducated P.O.S. TRT is testosterone replacement therapy. Testosterone is the naturally produced STEROID in mammals you dumbass.

What you are referring to is called anabolic steroids, but you are too ignorant to be able to distinguish between the two. Thanks for the tip though.



SJ said:


> I don't understand the point of view of those who look negatively at testosterone replacement. No matter how many of their opinions I read, the pro-trt argument holds a lot more logic. Of course it can be abused, but that's why it is monitored.
> 
> I'll keep reading both sides of the argument since I am no expert, but the argument seems lob-sided to me. (Which is probably why it happens to be not only legal, but encouraged by doctors.)


Right there is nothing better then injecting yourself with testosterone to get on back to the days when you were a better athlete and recovered from workouts more quickly, were more explosive and energetic. 

From a fan's perspective, Why not? The athlete will be able to compete longer than they really should and let's face it, I have no vested interest in their personal well being. Go ahead and entertain for years further than you should.

Is that your angle?

Decreased testosterone production as you age in the natural process that occurs in humans. Why are we trying to combat that natural aging process? So I can see a fighter get a couple more fights under his belt? So I can see him being able to compete with younger guys that he really shouldn't be able to compete with anymore if he was all natural? So he can earn more money by abusing the system?

I'm confused what the up side of this is?

BTW Dana (who I find very hit and miss with a lot of issues, so I hate using him to support my argument, but I will) also hates TRT and thinks it's an absolute loop hole in the system.

That's why he fired Nate Marquardt's ass, who has been one of my favourite fighters until I found out about it.


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## TheAuger (Jun 30, 2011)

I am fine with athletes using TRT to maintain normal levels of testosterone.

As long as:
-It is prescribed by licensed doctors.
-All procedures, paperwork, & processes are followed by the athlete in terms of being allowed to use TRT by State Athletic Commissions.
-The athlete tests within the acceptable range while on it.

Sonnen & Marquart couldn't follow these rules. So one was suspended while the other was cut from the UFC.

If Rampage needs to use TRT, I have zero issues with it. But that doesn't mean he isn't a hypocrite.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

I dont see anything wrong with TRT if your levels are within normal range.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

TheAuger said:


> I am fine with athletes using TRT to maintain normal levels of testosterone.
> 
> As long as:
> -It is prescribed by licensed doctors.
> ...


Just because someone in a position of power (a doctor) says it is safe doesn't mean it is right and has a place in professional sports.

It's *uncool* to stick *large amounts* of steroids that *mimic testosterone* into our bodies, but as soon as we stick *smaller amounts* of *actual testosterone* into our bodies that makes it *cool*?

Seriously WTF is going on in this world?


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

VolcomX311 said:


> I'm sure a lot of fighters are doing it and not admitting it.


I believe this is true - It won't turn a bad fghter into a good one, but it helps The argument that they're using TRT just to get in the normal range is an excuse. 

Testosterone shots cause T levels to go way up, then they fall, very predictably, every day until their next shot, so it's very easy to time an injections around their pre-fight testing, to get a "normal" reading.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

Ryan1522 said:


> Just because someone in a position of power (a doctor) says it is safe doesn't mean it is right and has a place in professional sports.
> 
> It's *uncool* to stick *large amounts* of steroids that *mimic testosterone* into our bodies, but as soon as we stick *smaller amounts* of *actual testosterone* into our bodies that makes it *cool*?
> 
> Seriously WTF is going on in this world?


Testosterone IS a steroid.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

mastodon2222 said:


> Testosterone IS a steroid.


Perhaps you should read other posts before commenting. I'm well aware that testosterone is a steroid. Thanks for the enlightenment and adding such a valuable piece of information to the conversation.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

Ryan1522 said:


> Perhaps you should read other posts before commenting. I'm well aware that testosterone is a steroid. Thanks for the enlightenment and adding such a valuable piece of information to the conversation.


<<It's uncool to stick large amounts of steroids that mimic testosterone into our bodies, but as soon as we stick smaller amounts of actual testosterone into our bodies that makes it cool?>>


I agree with your post and wasn't trying to be a d**k. Alot of people think that testosterone and steroids are two different things.


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## BOMDC (Feb 13, 2011)

Ryan1522 said:


> I have no problem with people outside of professional sports who use TRT bc they have low testosterone levels as a result of being elderly, having testicular cancer etc.
> 
> I've said this before in other threads and I'll say it again, TRT is not meant for alpha male UFC fighters in the prime of their lives. I don't care what their testosterone levels are at, they should not be allowed to use it.
> 
> ...



Usually TRT aims to restore T levels to normal although obviously can raise them to above normal until the right dosing is ascertained. I understand your position in regards to top level athletics, but would you consider corrective surgery to be something that should not be allowed as well? Most likely no, and I do understand that an individual would most likely not be able to get an unfair advantage from corrective surgery but wouldn't you consider them both to be corrective procedures to bring a person back to their full capabilities?

Not trying to start an argument or anything but I think people are making it out that the only people who need TRT are deathly ill or cancer survivors. There are quite a few out there that simply have hormonal imbalances, can even happen in your 20s. It isn't _that_ common but it's not like every athlete applying for it is trying to gain an unfair advantage.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

BOMDC said:


> Usually TRT aims to restore T levels to normal although obviously can raise them to above normal until the right dosing is ascertained. I understand your position in regards to top level athletics, but would you consider corrective surgery to be something that should not be allowed as well? Most likely no, and I do understand that an individual would most likely not be able to get an unfair advantage from corrective surgery but wouldn't you consider them both to be corrective procedures to bring a person back to their full capabilities?
> 
> Not trying to start an argument or anything but I think people are making it out that the only people who need TRT are deathly ill or cancer survivors. There are quite a few out there that simply have hormonal imbalances, can even happen in your 20s. It isn't _that_ common but it's not like every athlete applying for it is trying to gain an unfair advantage.


Decent counter argument, but I'll do my best to counter your counter haha.


Corrective surgery such as an ACL repair is totally different and yes permitted in my books. Corrective surgery allows a fighter to get back to their full capabilities or at least close to full capabilities. 

TRT does the same thing in restoring capabilities you're right, but it is a drug. I take issue with it being a drug, because it is performance enhancing albeit to a slighter degree than other substances, but nonetheless it is performance enhancing. 

Should young fighters that are in the mid tier levels of testosterone use TRT to get to the highest levels within the acceptable range? This is a slippery slope. That would be perfectly permitted under the current rules, but is it abuse of the system? In my opinion, unequivocally, yes!

Professional athletes that are the cream of the crop do not need TRT.

If you do need drugs to help you perform better, no matter what slight or large increase in performance you may experience, then you have no place in professional sports in the first place. That goes for guys with low levels of testosterone in their 20's too. If you need testosterone to help you when your in your 20's and your an athlete, then your likely not in the right profession. This neo-nazism-like opinion I have against the use of drugs is only when it is in regards to professional athletes because I think everyone should be on a level playing field without trying to manipulate rules.

I have absolutely no problem with TRT or personal use of recreational drugs. In fact, if someone outside of professional sports wants to get jacked using anabolic steroids, use DMT to converse with aliens, or smoke weed to relax then by all means do it. However, if you're a professional athlete, you should be held to a much higher standard to ensure fairness. 

I just want to see what guys can do naturally without any drugs that are going to enhance performance.


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## dsmjrv (Jan 27, 2010)

i see nothing wrong with this, if he is low its actually very healthy to up your T levels back to normal levels... when people go over the normal tolerances is when it becomes cheating...


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

VolcomX311 said:


> TRT doesn't equate to anabolic steroids. Rogan's on TRT as well AND he works out regularly and he looks about as average as it comes, but that's a bit anecdotle.
> 
> TRT "is suppose" to bring you to a healthly baseline of test relative to a healthy male, if you are indeed taking it as a result of low T. Anabolic Steroids take your test waaaaaaaay above a homeostatic level, which is what's responsible for the unnatural hypertrophic effects.
> 
> ...


If your testosterone drops naturally when you get older, won't it be natural to have low testosterone levels? Using TRT to mimic the testosterone levels of a 23 year old is very unnatural and unsportsmanlike in my book...

Low testosterone at an early age is often cause by previous abuse of steroids of some kind as well...

If you can't produce enough of the stuff to fight past the age of 34, guess what - you shouldn't fight past age 34!

Your body is going to become older, fighters should deal with it and use it the way nature inteded them to, TRT is not only unfair to the fighters they're facing - but also to all the young stars waiting for a spot to open up in the UFC, but will have to wait a year or two because it's filled with "old" people hanging on to their spots... It's an evil circle that's just going to get worse as more of these treatments are prescribed.

And I bet you that their testosterone levels are far from normal during training, it would be the easiest thing in the world to double up the dose and cycle off it as fight time draws nearer...

TRT users disgust me, Rampage - I'm through rooting for you after UFC 144, so damn dissappointing...

BTW in the history of the Olympic Games 2 (TWO!!!) people have been allowed to use TRT to normalize their levels and one of those dudes lost both his balls in an accident!


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Joabbuac said:


> I dont see anything wrong with TRT if your levels are within normal range.


I don't know, maybe it's just our desire as people to actually see the best athletes at the top and not people were just using the best drugs.

Maybe it goes back to, ever since the history of sports, people have to accept that athletes naturally deteriorate with age and it's become an accepted part of sports...maybe people just aren't okay with people artificially giving a big **** you to father time and being on par athletically with their younger counterparts....this is actually a hugely unfair advantage. The older fighter has years of experience and training and knowledge and yet, takes drugs to negate the younger fighter's natural athleticism and "freshness" advantage. This is how farces like Couture and Henderson have been so successful.


BTW, these guys are going to be absolutely fucked as they get older...the only way to circumvent it is if they take TRT for the rest of their lives which is precisely why doctors love to prescribe it so much...easy money.



And to the guy who compared it to ACL reconstruction, first all two things...

One, ACL tears aren't natural. It isn't an expected consequence of living and fighting for a long time. ACL tears are more or less freak accidents that happen. Aging is not.

But more importantly, ACL reconstruction ISN'T performance enhancing and NEVER will be. It's actually the opposite, as much as they can help you get back, most people are never the same. This is not the case with TRT. TRT is performance enhancing, point blank....that's why they use the damn thing in the first place. Look at a dude like Chael Sonnen...dude's getting more and more massive each time we see the guy. Just absolutely yoked out of his mind....massive biceps...pretty sure the dude will be at 205 soon...and when you look at him now..just massive compared to the Sonnen who even FOUGHT at 205 way back when he wasn't juicing.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Rampage isnt 25, he shouldnt have the testosterone levels of a 25 year old, this is bull shit. No real defense against that.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

joshua7789 said:


> Rampage isnt 25, he shouldnt have the testosterone levels of a 25 year old, this is bull shit. No real defense against that.


My sentiments exactly. Thanks for explaining that in two lines instead of the 30 I used on the previous page


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

TRT is the most shady and disgusting thing about the sport to me and I feel known perpetrators should have asterisks next to their resumes for using it. **** the legality of it. And **** picking and choosing what PEDs to allow. If you are going to allow TRT you may as well allow dudes to roid out of their minds and make it fair game.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Budhisten said:


> My sentiments exactly. Thanks for explaining that in two lines instead of the 30 I used on the previous page


Sometimes my gumpish simplicity helps me in life.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

joshua7789 said:


> Sometimes my gumpish simplicity helps me in life.


Marvelous!


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

How anyone can think that using TRT to get into the normal levels is "Cheating" is beyond me. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being an athlete and wanting to feel healthy. Everybody that needs it should be on it and that way everybody is on equal levels. 

Personally... Steroids should be completely Legal in sports but thats a different discussion all together.

I wanna see the best an athlete has to offer and if his testosterone is at an unhealthy level for competition then by all means take TRT and get yourself to a legal healthy level and go out there and perform.!!

I think some of you guys believe that TRT or even Steroids is some kind of real life "X-Gene" and you can now control thunderstorms at your will. Or you will become as fast as Flash is and run around the planet 10x in half a second.

And i have heard 5 different fighters come out and say that most fighters are using performance enhancers. Chances are Ryan Bader is on something also. Except i doubt Ryan Bader has problems being at "healthy" levels.

You guys need to look at it from the view of a fighter. If you were Rampage you have everything to gain by getting to normal levels especially since you know how many of your opponents are taking stuff illegally. I commend him for being honest.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Man, it's cheers me up a lot to see such intelligent posts in this thread. 

I was starting to lose faith in mmaforum until the last couple pages where people finally began to expose TRT as the bullshit it is. 

Your testosterone levels are lower than when you were 25...you don't need TRT you need to check your birth certificate and realize you're not 25 anymore and that's how shit works. 

The fact of the matter is this; TRT increases a persons testosterone levels. What these doctors have done is find a nice little loophole to slip a drug into the sport, they increase a person's testosterone on the basis that their levels of testosterone are lower than they should be naturally; the truth is they increase a person's level of testosterone to when they were in their prime which makes absolutely no sense. Also, now I'm no rocket scientist here, but doesn't anyone find this whole thing kind of fishy...? All these fighters coming out with stories of being on TRT, and their treatments starting since like 2-3 years ago tops...yep, coincidentally a bunch of fighters start getting TRT all around the same time. 

I honestly don't think the fighters are all that smart, and wouldn't be surprised if one guy told his friends, his friends told his, and it just got around the MMA community, "I got tested by my doctor and he said my test levels were low and that's why I wasn't performing that well recently, yeah I know I've been knocking out dudes for the past 5+ years, but apparently I could've been stomping these dudes even easier cuz I was fighting with less test than the average person, you should get yourself tested man, here go see my doctor he's really good.........." Meathead fighters man...I honestly would bet this is how this whole shit got started, anyone with a brain will realize this is absolutely retarded.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

The legalities of it, I couldn't care less about.

Fighting is *supposed* to show us who is the best fighter, using all their natural tools. Once you need to augment yourself, to improve your natural condition, it becomes something I'm not happy about at all.

Didn't somebody post up a very interesting article not long ago, outlining how TRT is very rarely essential in athletes and yet in MMA it's rife. Am I imagining things? Anybody have a link??


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> How anyone can think that using TRT to get into the normal levels is "Cheating" is beyond me. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being an athlete and wanting to feel healthy. Everybody that needs it should be on it and that way everybody is on equal levels.


What is so healthy about a 35 year old man having the testosterone levels of a 25 year old because of injections prescribed his doctor to make up for a "testosterone deficiency"? 

What exactly is fair about a fighter in his upper 30's, who has a lot of experience, receiving testosterone injections to bring his testosterone levels to match that of someone at the age of 25? In that case, 25 year olds should be diagnosed by their psychiatrists with "MMA knowledge deficiency" and should be prescribed a drug that can enhance a person's level of consciousness to mimic that of someone who has 10+ years of experience in the fight field. How's that for fair? Idiot.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

While we're at it, all fighters should be given sentient cyborgs that they would be able to control mentally from a safe location outside of the cage, that way all fighters can be equal! No need for injections either or anything.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> The legalities of it, I couldn't care less about.
> 
> Fighting is *supposed* to show us who is the best fighter, using all their natural tools. Once you need to augment yourself, to improve your natural condition, it becomes something I'm not happy about at all.
> 
> Didn't somebody post up a very interesting article not long ago, outlining how TRT is very rarely essential in athletes and yet in MMA where its rife. Am I imagining things? Anybody have a link??


I think I did, is this the one you're thinking about?

http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/99959-outside-view-mma-drugtesting.html

Here's a quote:



> "What we do in the IOC, is we have specialists all over the world who all they do for us is conduct examinations for athletes who claim to be low on testosterone," said Catlin. "The levels of testosterone in men vary all over the place. Unless this particular person we send them to, and the people they send the data to for examination say so, we don’t give them [a TUE]. I think in all the years I’ve done it, we’ve given two. One was a kid who didn’t have any testicles because he had a terrible accident ten years ago or something. It just doesn’t happen."


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

ptw said:


> Man, it's cheers me up a lot to see such intelligent posts in this thread.
> 
> I was starting to lose faith in mmaforum until the last couple pages where people finally began to expose TRT as the bullshit it is.
> 
> ...


The doctors don't slip in anything. The doctors have little to do with the PED being legalized. Doctors give out steroid and HGH prescriptions willy-nilly, they don't really care about the people's health. They give shit to people because...essentially they want it. Whether or not it's legal is something they have to take up with the commission, who dubiously think that it's okay.

The reason TRT is legalized is because of the legislation of the athletic commissions. It's pathetic really, and I'm about 80 percent sure it's not allowed in other major sports.

There's really no justification for it...at all. 

I'm just intrigued to see how long this farce will continue.


Oh and by the way......it's going to be great in like 20 years when all these dickheads have keeled over because of accelerated aging, how they suddenly start talking about how terrible TRT is and of course, ban it's use. :confused05:


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Budhisten said:


> I think I did, is this the one you're thinking about?
> 
> http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/99959-outside-view-mma-drugtesting.html
> 
> Here's a quote:


Bingo. Thanks Bud.

I don't really see how anybody can read that thread and still think its legitimate for a fighter to receive TRT.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Well, enjoy taking those injections for the next 30 years you are living Rampage, they won't make you a better fighter and now you get to waste countless dollars on them just so you don't shrivel up and die! :thumb02:

But I'm sure the next 5 or so years will be great.


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

Budhisten said:


> If your testosterone drops naturally when you get older, won't it be natural to have low testosterone levels? Using TRT to mimic the testosterone levels of a 23 year old is very unnatural and unsportsmanlike in my book...
> 
> Low testosterone at an early age is often cause by previous abuse of steroids of some kind as well...
> 
> ...


This pretty much sums up my feelings.

Two Olympic therapuetic use exemptions in history, but six current mixed martial artists (Hendo, Sonnen, Hallman, Duffee, Marquardt, and now Rampage) that we know of need it? Either legitimate need for TRT is insanely prevalent in MMA compared to other sports, or our athletic commissions aren't quite as stringent as WADA.

This may or may not be the guy the Dr. was referring to as one of the two guys who could use testosterone in the Olympics:



> American sailor Kevin Hall, a testicular cancer survivor who requires a weekly injection of testosterone, has been cleared by U.S. and international governing bodies to compete in the Athens Olympics.
> 
> ...
> 
> Hall, who grew up in Ventura, Calif., and now lives in Bowie, Md., was diagnosed with cancer in the fall of 1990 while a senior at Brown University. Between then and January 1993, he underwent three surgeries to remove both testicles and lymph nodes in his abdomen.


Source. I completely support that guy's use of testosterone. Muscular, world class athletes without a specific diagnosed cause for hypogonadism who complain of being tired? Not so much.

Also testosterone only drops a little from naturally ageing per year. The average for a healthy man age 25-29 is 669 ng/dL. Going up to 30-34 yields an average of 621 ng/dL. So if a guy was pumpping it out at 25 and has dropped way down (below 300 ng/dL) at 33, it's likely from a damaged pituitary/testicles, or anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism.


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> I'm sure a lot of fighters are doing it and not admitting it.


I've heard of fighters through people I know who have trained with some elite level fighters and said they know for a fact they are on it, TRT and other stuff. Don't have proof so not naming names but it was shocking to hear.

Edit: I'm tired and pissed off beyond belief and my English was horrid so I reworded it.


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## Sousa (Jun 16, 2007)

Ryan1522 said:


> TRT is perfectly legal and allowed by commissions as long as a doctor is prescribing it and when you test, your testosterone levels remain within the normal range stated in the rules policy.
> 
> Remember this interview guys?
> 
> ...


Could you be any more of a hater? Read the rest of his quote and you'll feel stupid after


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

I agree with Smacky and Budhisten about whether or not it should be allowed but it doesn't change how I feel about guys like Rampage and Hendo. At least they put it out there and let you know there are a ton of guys in the UFC using and abusing it during their camp and not telling the fans they are on it.


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## BamaNasty (Feb 25, 2012)

Why doesnt this suprise me? Weight gain after injury, still wants to fight because obviously the injury healed faster than normal...i suspected this when he didnt make weight, but now that he openly admits to using it makes me discredit him as a fighter by a few points...just my opinion.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

Sousa said:


> Could you be any more of a hater? Read the rest of his quote and you'll feel stupid after


Could you read the other posts I had in this thread that already addressed it you ignorant scrub.

I hate when people skip to the last page and post their thoughts.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

Thanks to the following users for sharing their disgust with th use and abuse of the loop hole in the system: Budhisten, Roflcopter, Soojooko, ptw and joshua7789.

All of you had great thoughts on the topic and have re-inspired my love for mmaforum. 

Thanks!

Edit: SmackyBear too


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

But...if everyone agreed - what the fuk would we all talk about?


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## TheAuger (Jun 30, 2011)

Joabbuac said:


> But...if everyone agreed - what the fuk would we all talk about?


We could all go around kissing each others asses & telling everyone how great we think each other are.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

Joabbuac said:


> But...if everyone agreed - what the fuk would we all talk about?


LOL somethings I like debating, but this is not one of them. PED use should not be subjective in my opinion. Why the commission has a list of banned substances, but permits TRT use is beyond me.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

TheAuger said:


> We could all go around kissing each others asses & telling everyone how great we think each other are.


Already did this lol!


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> Fighting is *supposed* to show us who is the best fighter, using all their natural tools. Once you need to augment yourself, to improve your natural condition, it becomes something I'm not happy about at all.


That's pretty much how I feel about it as well.

As far as Rampage's quote in the OP is concerned: I'm happy he just comes out & says it straight up. It's one of the things I've always liked about him. Now, if he only used it to get over his knee injury (via doctor's orders) then I don't have a problem with that, so long as it doesn't make his levels abnormal for a fight. But I do have a problem with fighters using it purely to bump up their levels to "that of a 25 year old" if they are not actually a 25 year old. His quote there actually seemed a bit fuzzy to me, and could be interpreted different ways. Could be he only took it for his knee & he was commenting on the other effects it had on him etc. Or he may be staying on it to keep his levels up now. Or he just feels much better now that he's healed up again. One of the last things he says about it is "I did it like a week or two" So IDK really. But dude if you're healed then get back off of & stay off of the stuff, and either way, big props for being straight. He wasn't even specifically asked about TRT or anything, he just talked about it matter-of-factly while he was explaining his injury and stuff, not treating the topic any different than any other part of the interview.

Here's the entire interview, BTW. It's a good read, touches on "the Rogan incident" and a few other things as well.



> Quinton ‘Rampage’ Jackson missed weight for his fight with Ryan Bader by an enormous five pounds, something unheard of for the former UFC and Pride champion. Already beset by allegations that he was not taking the fight seriously, the weight-miss was taken as proof positive that he did not care about the bout or respect Bader as an opponent.
> 
> In the week prior to the fight, Jackson had caused a storm by slamming UFC commentator Joe Rogan. He accused Rogan of biased commentary and said that he always had negative comments to make about Jackson’s techniques and overall game. All in all, the days preceding the fight were not vintage for Jackson.
> 
> ...


http://www.fightersonlymag.com/cont...-he-used-testosterone-therapy-for-bader-fight


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## Curly (Aug 20, 2007)

*I use it.*

I don't want to read this whole thread, it's too damn long. 
*I use TRT.* I'm 42 years old. My energy was low so doctor tested me and said I was on the lower end. I take my testostrone shot every week now and it has helped a lot. Sex drive is normal again and I just feel better.

Most of the guys on this forum are young dudes so you don't really know how it feels to age. You will in time, and I hope you get your testostrone checked and get TRT if needed. It really has made me feel better. 

Happy Friday everyone!


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

Helping you with your everyday life I have no issue with at all and am glad you feel better. but when it's used for a competitive edge in a sport I wholeheartedly disagree with it.


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## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

Interesting steroid discussion. 

I wish I had the time to have sex five times a night.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

I don't imagine I'll care so much about getting old that I'll try to circumvent it by taking an injection.

At some point you just have to let it go.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Curly said:


> I don't want to read this whole thread, it's too damn long.
> *I use TRT.* I'm 42 years old. My energy was low so doctor tested me and said I was on the lower end. I take my testostrone shot every week now and it has helped a lot. Sex drive is normal again and I just feel better.
> 
> Most of the guys on this forum are young dudes so you don't really know how it feels to age. You will in time, and I hope you get your testostrone checked and get TRT if needed. It really has made me feel better.
> ...


Arent you concerned with how this will affect you when you're 50+? I'm almost 41, so not exactly a spring chicken. I would be very cautious of using TRT unless my current life was intolerable. As it stands, I'm a shadow of the man I was at 25 in many ways. You know why? Because I'm 41 is why.

Grow old gracefully, I say. You cant escape it. Having treatment will make the next 10 years awesome, but may well be at the expense of all your years following that.


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## xxpillowxxjp (Aug 23, 2010)

Terror Kovenant said:


> Interesting steroid discussion.
> 
> I wish I had the time to have sex five times a night.


Aint that the truth? HA


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## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

Low testosterone is certainly a legitimate condition. The number of fighters diagnosed however is curious. 

Low testosterone can occur naturally, but can also be a symptom of past steroid use. 

However, with past steroid use your LH (Luteinizing hormone/lutropin) and FSH (follicle-stimulating hormone) levels are low as well. If LH and FSH levels are normal or high, odds are really good that low testosterone wasn't due to prior PED usage.

And that is a basic check Nevada does when reviewing an exemption for TRT. 

An exemption for TRT also requires hormone levels to exist in a "normal" range. So there are controls in place.

I can't help but think fighters have found a loophole to effectively cheat.

The "normal" range for testosterone levels is 300 - 1000 ng/dl. A few google searches turned up tables showing test subjects averaging ~ 600 ng/dl.

In a normal male though testosterone levels are not constant. They fluctuate from day to day and even over the course of a single day.

How much of an advantage is it to always have testosterone levels ~ 1000 ng/dl? 

Technically not outside the "normal" range but certainly an advantage over a regular guy whose levels float down to 600 ng/dl or less.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Terror Kovenant said:


> I wish I had the time to have sex five times a night.


pft - I've got time for 5 times in 1 hour.







hang on, wait... :confused02:


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

Woodenhead said:


> pft - I've got time for 5 times in 1 hour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A/S/L? :thumb02:


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## Howeman89 (Jul 26, 2011)

From personal experience with use of PED's and blood tests it's very easy to manipulate and be able to con the doctors in thinking you have hormonal problems, a couple of blood tests in showing low test levels and low LH levels more than twice would lead doctors to start TRT, I think it shows the amount of fighters who have previously used PED's, that's why fighters turn to TRT cause it's prescribed, you'll see more and more come out in future, I'm surprised Wanderlei Silva's never been caught out with it tbh and Vitor Belfort, both fighters 10 years ago phenomenal shape, no where the same physique now in the UFC where the commissions regularly test fighters


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

both sides have valid points 

in this situation i see nothing wrong with it, it helped his knee heel so he could fight, the side effects of it was that his levels reached that of when he was younger but in the legal limits.

he was not higher then whats allowed and from what i have learned about rampage is that he would not want to take it to get a advantage/ be higher then whats allowed ect.

i actually like that he came out and said hey my knee was messed up and heeling really slowly, they gave me some shit and it helped me heal better, it made me feel young again too ..no not super human just younger

like i said both sides have merit and this is just my vies on the subject and that is in this case its fine imo, he did not take them to feel younger it was a side effect


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## Howeman89 (Jul 26, 2011)

From my knowledge I can't see how TRT is the best method of recovering from injuries, I would of thought HGH or Nandrolone (Deca) would of worked best, if you wanted to go down that route, I mean TRT obviously wasn't the best choice cause his knee still hampered his performance come the night of the fight, maybe it's a cover-up for the real reason behind his TRT use?


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

Howeman89 said:


> From my knowledge I can't see how TRT is the best method of recovering from injuries, I would of thought HGH or Nandrolone (Deca) would of worked best, if you wanted to go down that route, I mean TRT obviously wasn't the best choice cause his knee still hampered his performance come the night of the fight, maybe it's a cover-up for the real reason behind his TRT use?


possibility but he has never been the kind of person that would do that but eh all i know about him is what he wants us to know.


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## BamaNasty (Feb 25, 2012)

Howeman89 said:


> From my knowledge I can't see how TRT is the best method of recovering from injuries, I would of thought HGH or Nandrolone (Deca) would of worked best, if you wanted to go down that route, I mean TRT obviously wasn't the best choice cause his knee still hampered his performance come the night of the fight, *maybe it's a cover-up for the real reason behind his TRT use?*


I feel like Rampage has always been bluntly honest with people, which has gotten him into trouble before...so I see no reason why he would lie about this. Why come out and say your using the drug, no matter the excuse people are going to think less of you whether youre telling the truth or lying, so why not tell the truth...I don't think its a cover up.


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## Curly (Aug 20, 2007)

Soojooko said:


> Having treatment will make the next 10 years awesome, but may well be at the expense of all your years following that.


I hope not.

At 42 I'm not ready to be done living yet. I had a bad accident in 2008 and was in a wheelchair for 3 months. The doctor believes my testostone never fully came back up after that (possibly the heavy narcotics they had me on). I was not able to work out and stay in shape because my muscles always ached, particularly my leg muscles. I don't lift hard, just moderate lifting for 30 minutes a day and 45 minutes of cardio 5 times a week. I was not able to do this even three years aftert eh accident because of the pain. The TTR has fixed that. I can now recover normal again and I feel strength in my body like before the accident. 
I'm not trying to be twenty again, I just want to be able to not live in constant pain. 

I don't deny that there must be people abusing TRT, I just wanted to give you guys a human face to TRT.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Curly said:


> I hope not.
> 
> At 42 I'm not ready to be done living yet. I had a bad accident in 2008 and was in a wheelchair for 3 months. The doctor believes my testostone never fully came back up after that (possibly the heavy narcotics they had me on). I was not able to work out and stay in shape because my muscles always ached, particularly my leg muscles. I don't lift hard, just moderate lifting for 30 minutes a day and 45 minutes of cardio 5 times a week. I was not able to do this even three years aftert eh accident because of the pain. The TTR has fixed that. I can now recover normal again and I feel strength in my body like before the accident.
> I'm not trying to be twenty again, I just want to be able to not live in constant pain.
> ...


Well, in that context, we are talking a different story. Your original post gave the impression you simply had low-ish testosterone. No mention of an accident or the pain your we're in. I did say I would consider it if my life was intolerable. Your situation sounded pretty intolerable to me. I'm glad your out of it and enjoying life again.:thumbsup:

However, I consider your situation a far cry away from the reasoning behind fighters doing it.


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## Curly (Aug 20, 2007)

Soojooko said:


> I consider your situation a far cry away from the reasoning behind fighters doing it.


I hear you. :thumbsup:
On the other hand, If 300 to 1000 is normal, and a fighter legitimately finds himself below that range, then he should be able to bring himself up to a normal level. 

The problem is there are going to be fighters who use this as an excuse to abuse it, after all it is low level steroid use-- but is it abuse if they are seeking mid-normal range?

If a fighters body naturally puts him above the 1000 level should he be required to be medically brought down to the normal range? If a fighters body is naturally below the range can he be brought up to normal range?

I don't know the ethical answer to these questions, I only know that many things can put you below normal range including long term heavy steroid use, trauma to the body, legal narcotics after surgery, naturally low testosterone, injury to your nuts, birth defects, who knows what else.

Men with low testosterone should be able to legally bring it to normal level-- *if* this can be controlled so as to keep a fair playing field.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Curly said:


> I hear you. :thumbsup:
> On the other hand, If 300 to 1000 is normal, and a fighter legitimately finds himself below that range, then he should be able to bring himself up to a normal level.
> 
> The problem is there are going to be fighters who use this as an excuse to abuse it, after all it is low level steroid use-- but is is abuse if they are seeking mid-normal range?
> ...


This is where we dont agree. If your testosterone has dropped below normal ( whatever that means ) levels due to simply getting older, then that should not be reason enough to have TRT. That should be when you stop fighting. I consider it cheating. Your body naturally degrades. Thats what happens. Where will it end? Should a fighter be able to take drugs to make him stronger because hes not as strong as he was at 25? In my opinion... Its absurd.

EDIT.
... and thats without considering that many of these fighters only need it due to substance abuse earlier in their lives... which is totally unacceptable.


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## Curly (Aug 20, 2007)

Age may or may not be a reason-- but what if one of the younger fighters has low testostrone, should he be able to bring it up to a normal level?


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Curly said:


> Age may or may not be a reason-- but what if one of the younger fighters has low testostrone, should he be able to bring it up to a normal level?


I honestly doubt there are many cases of young fighters with naturally low testosterone. If they exist, its most likely the result of an accident, like yourself.

Complete speculation on my part, of course.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

Curly said:


> Age may or may not be a reason-- but what if one of the younger fighters has low testostrone, should he be able to bring it up to a normal level?


I talked about this earlier. The answer I came up with was no. If you have low testosterone and your trying to be a professional athlete, then you're probably in the wrong profession.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Ryan1522 said:


> I talked about this earlier. The answer I came up with was no. If you have low testosterone and your trying to be a professional athlete, then you're probably in the wrong profession.


Totally agree.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

^^ Tell that to Dennis Hallman I guess. I remember Bas seemed to loosen his stance when he was confronted about the issue by him in person. 

_I'm_ just a watcher on this topic. At this point I'm still reading everyone's opinions, just not convinced either way.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

SJ said:


> ^^ Tell that to Dennis Hallman I guess. I remember Bas seemed to loosen his stance when he was confronted about the issue by him in person.
> 
> _I'm_ just a watcher on this topic. At this point I'm still reading everyone's opinions, just not convinced either way.


He has an autoimmune disease, which is really quite terrible. He has problems digesting wheat gluten and therefore he has troubles recovering from physical activities.

This really is terrible for him, but my standpoint remains the same. Sports aren't charities so they shouldn't be treated as one.

Dennis Hallman got the short end of the stick in terms of being genetically predisposed to getting the disease. That's life. Do I think he should be able to take TRT so he can overcome his disease in order to compete?

No! It's a really harsh answer, but it's also a really harsh world. By letting any individual that competes, the opportunity to take TRT, then it opens the floodgates for others to abuse the system.

If Hallman can't cut it in this sport without TRT as a result of his disease, then so be it. If you cannot naturally be a fighter, then you weren't meant to do it.

Simply put in my opinion sports should be a "Survival of the fittest" type attitude. If you need to take a drug in order to compete at the same level as your competition does naturally, then guess what? You have no business being there!


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Ryan1522 said:


> He has an autoimmune disease, which is really quite terrible. He has problems digesting wheat gluten and therefore he has troubles recovering from physical activities.
> 
> This really is terrible for him, but my standpoint remains the same. Sports aren't charities so they shouldn't be treated as one.
> 
> ...



I get what you're saying, but like I said I already read your opinion (as you've made it quite clear on every page of this thread). I certainly don't agree with what you're saying at this point, but thanks for giving me an opinion to think about.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

SJ said:


> I get what you're saying, but like I said I already read your opinion (as you've made it quite clear on every page of this thread). I certainly don't agree with what you're saying at this point, but thanks for giving me an opinion to think about.


Yes, I have made my opinion clear, but you posed a new statement that is, as always, up for debate so I decided to chime in. 

It's a hell of a lot easier to sit on the fence an deem yourself as "an observer" than it is to choose a side and debate the topic.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

It would be intriguing to see how many fighters are IMO legally cheating, drug use/abuse is a problem? No....


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Ryan1522 said:


> He has an autoimmune disease, which is really quite terrible. He has problems digesting wheat gluten and therefore he has troubles recovering from physical activities.
> 
> This really is terrible for him, but my standpoint remains the same. Sports aren't charities so they shouldn't be treated as one.
> 
> ...


Thats an interesting viewpoint. I full disagree with it but hey thats life. I think Humans in general are a weaker species physically then other animals but what they lack and we dont is the capability to "Create" things to overcome any obstacle. If that obstacle be a disease that prevents someone from competing in sports then so be it. We will try to create something so that person CAN compete in sports. And we have done exactly that. Sure he got the short stick but lucky for him we have found a fix to fix that. So he should fully be able to use it and get to normal levels.

And imho steroids should be legal in sports. The amount professional athletes get paid. I want to see the ABSOLUTE best a human body can offer. I know Steroids can harm an athletes body later in life but you know what??? THATS TOUGH.!


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> Thats an interesting viewpoint. I full disagree with it but hey thats life. I think Humans in general are a weaker species physically then other animals but what they lack and we dont is the capability to "Create" things to overcome any obstacle. If that obstacle be a disease that prevents someone from competing in sports then so be it. We will try to create something so that person CAN compete in sports. And we have done exactly that. Sure he got the short stick but lucky for him we have found a fix to fix that. So he should fully be able to use it and get to normal levels.
> 
> And imho steroids should be legal in sports. The amount professional athletes get paid. *I want to see the ABSOLUTE best a human body can offer*. I know Steroids can harm an athletes body later in life but you know what??? THATS TOUGH.!


I also want to see the best a human body can offer. Problem is by pumping a person full of steroids, you're altering what in fact, it is to be human.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Ryan1522 said:


> I also want to see the best a human body can offer. Problem is by pumping a person full of steroids, you're altering what in fact, it is to be human.


No your not. As i have stated before one of the great things a human can do is "create". We can create performance enhancers that take our bodies to the next level. 

I think no amount of arguing will sway our minds as we have just a complete different stance on the subject.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> No your not. As i have stated before one of the great things a human can do is "create". We can create performance enhancers that take our bodies to the next level.
> 
> I think no amount of arguing will sway our minds as we have just a complete different stance on the subject.


We also have the ability to "create" AI. As someone already asked should we have robots fight the fights with humans taking controls safely outside the octagon? Real Steel was an absolute train wreck of a blockbuster btw haha

Back on topic, how far are you willing to take your standpoint? Does it also encompass bionics? As bionics become increasingly more powerful as technology improves why not have fighters with increased memory power with artificial neurons so they can have more moves at their disposal, that can be more quickly available to them?

The above is a far cry from steroid use, but the alteration of the human body is the topic at hand and bionics fits under that umbrella if you ask me. The above example I'm using is to demonstrate the slippery slope you are trotting on. 

How far do we take it? or do we just ensure everyone is on a level playing field and keep it all-natural so we never have to deal with this issue?


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Just to throw in another variable, using a band-aid or Tylenol is altering what it is to be human/"non-natural", if someone wanted to take the definition that far.

It all comes down to where we draw the line. Personally, I'm OK with using TRT for legit healing. But when it comes to "bumping up levels", well, I'm not cool with that, but in the example of Dennis Hallman, I'm OK with it. But this whole issue of "levels" seems pretty grey to begin with, so TBH that needs to be more clearly defined before I take a more hardline stance on things.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

Woodenhead said:


> Just to throw in another variable, using a band-aid or Tylenol is altering what it is to be human/"non-natural", if someone wanted to take the definition that far.
> 
> It all comes down to where we draw the line. Personally, I'm OK with using TRT for legit healing. But when it comes to "bumping up levels", well, I'm not cool with that, but in the example of Dennis Hallman, I'm OK with it. But this whole issue of "levels" seems pretty grey to begin with, so TBH that needs to be more clearly defined before I take a more hardline stance on things.


I said using anabolic steroids alters what it is to be human. Comparing anabolic steroids to band aids in defining what being natural is, is more than ridiculous.


To answer your "levels" question, anything less than 300 ng/dL of blood is considered low while 900-1000 ng/dL is the high end of the natural testosterone levels for healthy, natural adult males.

Any fighter, including young healthy fighters, can, with a registered physician's consent, use TRT to "bump" themselves to the higher end of the spectrum.


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

Hallman's condition may be legitimate, but he's shown that he'll cheat in the past.

So giving him what amounts to a blank check to use a preformance enhancing drug and asking him to pinky swear that he'll use it responsibly seems naive at best.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

SmackyBear said:


> Hallman's condition may be legitimate, but he's shown that he'll cheat in the past.
> 
> So giving him what amounts to a blank check to use a preformance enhancing drug and asking him to pinky swear that he'll use it responsibly seems naive at best.


You have the best one-liners since jasvll haha. I miss jasvll's posts.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Ryan1522 said:


> We also have the ability to "create" AI. As someone already asked should we have robots fight the fights with humans taking controls safely outside the octagon? Real Steel was an absolute train wreck of a blockbuster btw haha
> 
> Back on topic, how far are you willing to take your standpoint? Does it also encompass bionics? As bionics become increasingly more powerful as technology improves why not have fighters with increased memory power with artificial neurons so they can have more moves at their disposal, that can be more quickly available to them?
> 
> ...


I kinda figured you would make a statement around those lines. If we have robots or steel arms or whatever well that isnt the human body fighting anymore so thats obviously not okay.

The line is pretty clear and obvious unless you are trying to make arguments. But im sure if you think about what you just said you would see the obvious difference between supplements and bionics.


And to control TRT use would not be that hard. We have only doctors administer it and before they do you have to get tested. You also have to get tested after and every 2 weeks. Is that a hassle??? yes of-course it is but i think any athlete that legitimately needs it would be very okay with dealing with that hassle.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> I kinda figured you would make a statement around those lines. If we have robots or steel arms or whatever well that isnt the human body fighting anymore so thats obviously not okay.
> 
> The line is pretty clear and obvious unless you are trying to make arguments. But im sure if you think about what you just said you would see the obvious difference between supplements and bionics.
> 
> ...


Now we've come full circle. No fighter needs TRT. If they do, then they weren't meant to be there in the first place due to genetic deficiency. If they're testosterone is genetically low, then they aren't actually the elite of the elite that should be competing. If they are low due to former anabloic steroid abuse then they rightfully suffering the consequences of a disgusting habit from years prior.

Why I am debating this with someone who thinks anabolic steroids should be legal in all professional sports is beyond me.

There's an entertainment product called the WWE. Not sure if you've heard of it, but I'm sure you can drool over all the athletes there that have been pushed to the absolute limits that the human body can handle by taking anabolic steroids. :sarcastic12:

The only justice I can get from this is knowing all the shitty side effects that severely decrease the quality of life of the users of anabolic steroids and also to a lesser degree, TRT.

That may sound harsh, but I don't give a shit. It's about ****ing time that people take some god damn responsibility for what they put in their bodies. 


I'm officially done trying to voice my concerns over abuse of TRT in aplha male fighters.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Ryan1522 said:


> I said...


Yup - you said. Unfortunately I didn't see an MD next to your name, so while I appreciate your unprofessional opinion, I'll just kindly write it off as just that. :]



Ryan1522 said:


> I'm officially done trying to voice my concerns over abuse of TRT in aplha male fighters.


Somehow I bet you'll post in this thread again. (100,000 creds?)
···
Anyway, from what I've read, it seems that this topic is far from conclusive and therefore anybody claiming they have the answer is claiming to be smarter than the scientists who are actually studying this issue. Somehow, I doubt that they are in fact smarter. My personal feeling (and the general trend amongst the medical community, from what I've read) is that the TRT level is a variable which is most closely tied to age than anything else. Seeing as how there isn't any hard agreed-upon peer-reviewed evidence as to what level is actually "normal" per age, I'm just gonna chill out on this fence until the actual experts come forward with a more widely agreed-upon consensus. But my gut feeling = use it to heal, but don't fight under the influence, unless that influence = you are in the normal range per your actual age. (which is muddy waters at this point in time, at best) Anything else is, to me, just people falling prey to confirmation bias.

I have no doubt that there's a lot of fighters who abuse TRT/"the system" though. :[


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

This debate could roll on forever! It's been mainly very civil.  We are talking 12 pages of genuine debate with lots of food for thought. Well done chaps. Sherdog, does indeed, suck.

Anyway, in closing...

When considering what I enjoy about sports, the limits of the natural human body is at the very top. The moment any unnatural process is carried out that improves an athletes natural condition, I'm personally saddened by it. I cant say it's right or wrong. That question is bigger than me. But the romance that sport carries is ruined when these treatments happen. That's how I feel.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Ryan1522 said:


> *Now we've come full circle. No fighter needs TRT.* If they do, then they weren't meant to be there in the first place due to genetic deficiency. If they're testosterone is genetically low, then they aren't actually the elite of the elite that should be competing. If they are low due to former anabloic steroid abuse then they rightfully suffering the consequences of a disgusting habit from years prior.
> 
> *Why I am debating this with someone who thinks anabolic steroids should be legal in all professional sports is beyond me.*
> 
> ...


Well iv never agreed to that statement so i dont know how you think we have come full circle.

And

As iv already told you



> I think no amount of arguing will sway our minds as we have just a complete different stance on the subject.


So i dont know why you are trying to argue it either. We both know the same info and just have a different outlook on it. You are just going to have to accept that and move on.

No need to make dumbass comments like there is a sport called "WWE". No i dont drool over them. Dont make stupid comments like that. Its completely irritating and pointless. I was respectful towards you and not trying to make fun of your opinion. Show me the same respect or quiet frankly **** ***.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> Well iv never agreed to that statement so i dont know how you think we have come full circle.


Orginally posted by Sideways222:

"*And imho steroids should be legal in sports*. The amount professional athletes get paid. I want to see the ABSOLUTE best a human body can offer. I know Steroids can harm an athletes body later in life but you know what??? THATS TOUGH."



Steroids encompasses anabolic steroids. This is, without a doubt, the most ignorant comment I have ever read on mmaforum.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Ryan1522 said:


> Orginally posted by Sideways222:
> 
> "*And imho steroids should be legal in sports*. The amount professional athletes get paid. I want to see the ABSOLUTE best a human body can offer. I know Steroids can harm an athletes body later in life but you know what??? THATS TOUGH."
> 
> ...


What??

I think you are confused pal.

You might be without a doubt the most annoying person to have a discussion with just because of comments like these. The way you just cant accept someone has a different opinion from yours is just.... ehh forget it. Whats the point..

And btw. Did you miss that portion the first time around?? Loob.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> What??
> 
> I think you are confused pal.
> 
> ...


I hope I'm confused. Were you trolling me or being sarcastic when you said steroids should be legal in sports?


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Ryan1522 said:


> I hope I'm confused. Were you trolling me or being sarcastic when you said steroids should be legal in sports?


Very Serious.

Steroids should be LEGAL in sports. Nothing ignorant about that statement. To say its ignorant is actually in fact ignorant.

Do i care for your opinion on the matter?? Not really. But im sure you will give it anyway. So i cant wait for the write up 
Make it a good one. :thumbsup:


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> Very Serious.
> 
> Steroids should be LEGAL in sports. Nothing ignorant about that statement. To say its ignorant is actually in fact ignorant.
> 
> ...


Like you said earlier we are on too far opposites of the spectrum for either of us to budge so I'll respectfully agree to disagree.

I have entertained the idea of creating a poll on the two separate view points if you're interested (unfortunately I don't think others will be which is why i have refrained from doing it), but I'm sure you are well aware that your opinion on the matter of steroids in sport is in the minority. I know the minority isn't necessarily wrong, but democracy decides what's right or wrong, not you or I.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Ryan1522 said:


> Like you said earlier we are on too far opposites of the spectrum for either of us to budge so I'll respectfully agree to disagree.
> 
> I have entertained the idea of creating a poll on the two separate view points if you're interested (unfortunately I don't think others will be which is why i have refrained from doing it), but I'm sure you are well aware that your opinion on the matter of steroids in sport is in the minority. I know the minority isn't necessarily wrong, but democracy decides what's right or wrong, not you or I.


I understand im the minority and im very okay with that. I actually expect it to be that way. I think most people are against steroids because of the harm it causes to the athletes in the long run and even athletes who dont want to take them for those reasons will have to in order to keep up. (Iv had a discussion about this before). Well my opinion on that matter is if you decide to be a professional athlete, get paid millions and millions of dollars, have a bunch of fame, get all the girls, all this while playing your hobby, AND you decide to take steroids, well you are agreeing to take the good with the bad. That is just the way i look at it.

You can decide that i am wrong because i certainly think all you guys are wrong. So even if 98% of people think i am wrong it wont change the fact that i believe you guys are wrong. No amount of democracy can change that. Only thing it can do is make me accept that im the minority in this view. Im not arguing if steroids are healthy or not... i accept the downside of steroids. Im just expressing my VIEW on the subject. Not even trying to change your view.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> I understand im the minority and im very okay with that. I actually expect it to be that way. I think most people are against steroids because of the harm it causes to the athletes in the long run and even athletes who dont want to take them for those reasons will have to in order to keep up. (Iv had a discussion about this before). *Well my opinion on that matter is if you decide to be a professional athlete, get paid millions and millions of dollars, have a bunch of fame, get all the girls, all this while playing your hobby, AND you decide to take steroids, well you are agreeing to take the good with the bad. That is just the way i look at it.*
> 
> You can decide that i am wrong because i certainly think all you guys are wrong. So even if 98% of people think i am wrong it wont change the fact that i believe you guys are wrong. No amount of democracy can change that. Only thing it can do is make me accept that im the minority in this view. Im not arguing if steroids are healthy or not... i accept the downside of steroids. Im just expressing my VIEW on the subject. Not even trying to change your view.


I may be reading into this, but I'm sensing a little resentment for fighters having an awesome life.

I'm beginning to wonder if you actually believe what you are saying or you are just spewing emotional blunder based on deep seeded hate towards their lifestyle?

Regardless of whether or not that has any truth, I'm satisfied with you knowing that your opinion is in the minority.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

socio-cultural conditioning will always keep pro steroid use in the minority, but being a minority opinion doesn't make it an inferior opinion. There was a time when the majority thought slavery was a good idea.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Ryan1522 said:


> *I may be reading into this, but I'm sensing a little resentment for fighters having an awesome life.
> 
> I'm beginning to wonder if you actually believe what you are saying or you are just spewing emotional blunder based on deep seeded hate towards their lifestyle?*
> 
> Regardless of whether or not that has any truth, I'm satisfied with you knowing that your opinion is in the minority.


Thats just you role playing being a psychotherapist. No truth to it what so ever. Kind of a crazy statement tbh but il just ignore it and pretend you didnt say that. 

"Deep seeded hate towards their lifestyle"

loob. 

Troll much?


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

Stay on topic gentlemen - Palhares implores you!










This thread is about Rampage Jackson admitting to using TRT, so please stick to that


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## Curly (Aug 20, 2007)

So much for our civil discussion.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Curly said:


> So much for our civil discussion.


:laugh:


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## evilappendix (Jan 4, 2007)

I'm in agreement with the few on this it seems. I actually said this in an old thread about steroid "abuse". I've no problem with steroid use in sports at all. I certainly respect Rampage for at least being honest about it whilst others lie or flat out deny it in an attempt to save face. So many of you claim foul because its "unnatural" but what about supplements and hiring nutritionists, etc? You can't drink a glass of any milk on the planet that has 30 or so grams of protein in it. It doesn't exist! The stuff virtually every pro and many of us guzzle down is made in a lab someplace and is just as unnatural. It gives you a direct advantage over someone that is trying to put on mass by eating tons of chicken and beans. I could say the same for multivitamins. Do you know how much fruit you'd need to eat to give you the 500-1000 percent of vitamin C found in one tiny chewable Fred Flinstone?? If the fighter doesn't care about their health in twenty years far be it from me to tell them how to live his or her life now...


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

evilappendix said:


> I'm in agreement with the few on this it seems. I actually said this in an old thread about steroid "abuse". I've no problem with steroid use in sports at all. I certainly respect Rampage for at least being honest about it whilst others lie or flat out deny it in an attempt to save face. So many of you claim foul because its "unnatural" but what about supplements and hiring nutritionists, etc? You can't drink a glass of any milk on the planet that has 30 or so grams of protein in it. It doesn't exist! The stuff virtually every pro and many of us guzzle down is made in a lab someplace and is just as unnatural. It gives you a direct advantage over someone that is trying to put on mass by eating tons of chicken and beans. I could say the same for multivitamins. Do you know how much fruit you'd need to eat to give you the 500-1000 percent of vitamin C found in one tiny chewable Fred Flinstone?? If the fighter doesn't care about their health in twenty years far be it from me to tell them how to live his or her life now...


Consuming vitamins, minerals or protein is still a natural process. There are lots of ways to do it. Its something our bodies have been doing all our lives. If somebody is low in a particular mineral, there are a myriad of ways it can be raised. Some a LOT quicker then others, granted, but still there are options. Raising testosterone levels is not in the same ball park in my opinion.

And for the record, I dont object because its bad for the fighter. I object because it gives a fighter an advantage that their opponent might not have. Ive heard the argument that all TRT does is bring the fighter up to *normal* levels. But how can anybody quantify that? How do any of us know that a fighter with low Testosterone who has just had TRT wont have big advantages over a clean fighter with moderate testosterone levels?? In my opinion, its not right or fair. Especially when considering that many of the problems are due to previous bodily abuse.


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## elitemmaclothin (Feb 15, 2012)

I guess its good he came out and said he did it, but my god train!!! This stuff is legal, but I dont think it should be. If your levels are that messed up you may not need to be fighting. Ohh well he lost anyways


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