# Unfortunately, I don't watch too much Hockey, SO....



## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

Who is indeed the better player, Ovechkin, or Crosbey?

Let the fisticuffs ensue...:thumb02:


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## RaisingCajun (Jun 22, 2008)

plazzman said:


> Who is indeed the better player, Ovechkin, or Crosbey?
> 
> Let the fisticuffs ensue...:thumb02:


In my opinion I don think it matters. Both players are franchise type players. I am not picky. Give me either one.


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## Nick_Lynch (Feb 3, 2008)

I think Ovechkin is better.


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## CornbreadBB (Jul 31, 2008)

What the **** is hockey?


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## Lotus (Jul 4, 2007)

it's what us canadians play when there are no seals to throw across our ice covered lands. why just yesterday me and plazz had an epic game of polar bear leap frog he beat me 6 to 5, my polar bear moved on me and i kinda face planted into the ice.

crosby is the better team player i think great playmaker and sets up the goals for his team ovechkin is a solid scorer but i don't watch their games enough to know the ins and outs, i believe crosby is leading in points if im correct


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## Negative1 (Feb 4, 2007)

I believe Ovie is the better player. I will type more tommorow.


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

Lotus said:


> it's what us canadians play when there are no seals to throw across our ice covered lands. why just yesterday me and plazz had an epic game of polar bear leap frog he beat me 6 to 5, my polar bear moved on me and i kinda face planted into the ice.
> 
> crosby is the better team player i think great playmaker and sets up the goals for his team ovechkin is a solid scorer but i don't watch their games enough to know the ins and outs, i believe crosby is leading in points if im correct


Yeah, I figured they wouldn't be the same type of player, but still wanted to know who's better overall.

The way I see it, with my limited knowledge of Hockey, Crosbey is like Giggs, and Ovechkin is like Ronaldo..


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## e-thug (Jan 18, 2007)

Dear god Plazz, you live in Canada and dont know anything about hockey?? Anyhow, the difference between the 2 is huge, its like choosin between apples and oranges.

Crosby is ya playmaker, and will be a great captain. Ovechkin just knows how to find the net no matter what.

The difference Plazz is this, Ovechkin is like your mid 90's Andy Cole, Crosby is like your Dennis Bergkamp, knows how to find the net, but is also a top playmaker.


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

Ohhh, excellent comparison, loves me some Bergkamp!

And yeah, I actually like Hockey, but just never watch it enough.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

Crosby=Center. Ovechkin=Wing. Centers are always more valuable to a team than wings. They also are better pieces to build teams around.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

Ovechkin all day. He's a bigger game breaker for me than Crosby and brings a physical presence that's not comparable.


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## SimplyNate (May 27, 2007)

Ovechin ftw. The man is a wizard.


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## ThaFranchise (Dec 24, 2007)

All_In_GSP said:


> Crosby=Center. Ovechkin=Wing. Centers are always more valuable to a team than wings. They also are better pieces to build teams around.


:confused03:

I don't know how you concluded this, but that's ridiculous. Ovvy and Cros both are elite players and it's pretty hard to say one is "better" than the other (i prefer Ovechkin). Ovechkin brings a physical presence and an unmatched knack for scoring, whereas Crosby is an excellent playmaker and seems to be a natural leader. Ovechkin's physicality could catch up with him though (see Peter Forsberg).


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

ThaFranchise said:


> :confused03:
> 
> I don't know how you concluded this, but that's ridiculous. Ovvy and Cros both are elite players and it's pretty hard to say one is "better" than the other (i prefer Ovechkin). Ovechkin brings a physical presence and an unmatched knack for scoring, whereas Crosby is an excellent playmaker and seems to be a natural leader. Ovechkin's physicality could catch up with him though (see Peter Forsberg).


So you don't know how I concluded that in hockey a center is more important than a wing? And _I_ get the head swirl smiley face?


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## ThaFranchise (Dec 24, 2007)

All_In_GSP said:


> So you don't know how I concluded that in hockey a center is more important than a wing? And _I_ get the head swirl smiley face?


Yep, it all depends on the player and the team, I really dont think you could say one position is more important than another (aside from goaltending).


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

ThaFranchise said:


> Yep, it all depends on the player and the team, I really dont think you could say one position is more important than another (aside from goaltending).


Ok, but if you have two equally talented players like Crosby, Malkin, or Ovechkin (opinion) then the position they play has to take effect. I'd take goaltending out of this equation too, because minus Brodeur or Luongo, there aren't too many out there that can steal Stanley Cups (I'm aware Luongo hasn't and Khabibulin was God when TB won the cup). 

I see what you're saying when you say, "depends on the player and the team." If I'm the SJ Sharks and I already have an elite play-making center in Joe Thornton, then naturally Ovechkin would be the "better" player. Or if I'm the Atlanta Thrashers and I already have an elite goal-scorer (and nothing else...jk), my choice would easily by Crosby. 

A center has to be good at all aspects of hockey - skating, stick-handling, shooting, offensive/defensive positioning, agility, stability, face-offs; he has to cover the center of his own net, dig in the corners in both zones, and essentially make things happen. A wing doesn't have to worry about face-offs, does not have to cover the front of his own net, does not get down low in the corners in the defensive zone, and can often get lazy without definite consequences. IMO a center of equal talent and determination will always be more valuable than a wing. 

To simplify this, many see this debate as a goal-scorer vs a passer, and goal-scoring always seems to trump passing. Strange though that historically, the best teams are built around good passers. Gretzky's Oilers, Lemieux's Penguins, Messier's teams, Yzerman's Red Wings, the Sakic/Forsberg Avalanche. Pure goal scorers (Hull, Mogilny, Bure, Selanne, Kovalchuk, Cheechoo, Ovechkin?) have never had a championship team built around them. Brett Hull (perhaps the greatest goal-scorer of all time) got his two Stanley Cups when he became an added piece (to the Stars, to the Wings). Crosby makes the teammates around him always better because he essentially forces them to be apart the scoring, whereas Ovechkin creates his own chances a majority of the time.

When the playoffs come around, good coaches set defensive lines and shadows against pure goal scorers. This nullifies their skill and they can't win a cup. But good passers can find multiple different teammates to finish. This makes them much more valuable than a pure goal scorer. Ovechkin's highlight reel goals and body checks aren't going to amount to much against a well-coached playoff team.


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## ThaFranchise (Dec 24, 2007)

Ok, Lemiuex and Gretzky were both excellent goal scorers aswell as playmakers though, and goal scorers such as Richard, Lafleur, Bossy, and Jagr all have multiple cups. The fact is you need both playmakers and goal scorers to win a cup, one without the other is fairly ineffective. As for centermen being more defensively responsible, Lemieux and Gretzky were notoriously poor defenders and Ovechkin in particular is better defensively than both Crosby and Malkin.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

ThaFranchise said:


> Ok, Lemiuex and Gretzky were both excellent goal scorers as well as playmakers though


Gretzky is known primiarily as a passer. He's always had a pass first mentality, regardless of how many goals he's scored. Lemieux was the best pure goal-scorer of the bunch mentioned, but even he was considered a playmaker. Ovy has more goals than assists, everyone else on the list does not.



ThaFranchise said:


> goal scorers such as Richard, Lafleur, Bossy, and Jagr all have multiple cups.


Firstly, Jagr is a playmaker as well. He's scored 62 goals before, but that was playing on a line with Mario and Francis (one of the best passers ever)...not too bad. He also won two cups as a rookie on Mario's coattails and didn't really come close again afterwards. The team he played on consisted of Lemieux, Francis, Stevens, Coffey, Murphy, and Mullen. He had both play-makers and goal-scorers with him.

Bossy had a play-maker in Trottier with, but Bossy is kind of an exception to the rule. The guy was a freak. .76 GPG will win games regardless of what team you play for. 

Lafleur and Richard...c'mon. Did goalies even have face-masks? And playing on a Canadiens team was a lock for Stanley Cup victories.



ThaFranchise said:


> As for centermen being more defensively responsible, Lemieux and Gretzky were notoriously poor defenders.


So because Lemieux and Gretzky were poor defenders, that means wings are more defensively responsible than centers? This part is just true. Anyone who plays the game can tell you that a center plays more defense than a wing.



ThaFranchise said:


> and Ovechkin in particular is better defensively than both Crosby and Malkin.


This is just not true. Not really sure how you came up with that, but it's definitely false.


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## ThaFranchise (Dec 24, 2007)

I do agree that centers are more responsible for it (as you said its common knowledge), but that doesnt mean that all of them are good defensively or that all wingers arent. And all those playmakers you mentioned needed the goalscorers just as much as the scorers needed them. Malkin and Crosby are BRUTAL defenders dude, not that Ovvy is great, but they are so slack on defense and it was their undoing in the playoffs. I still feel the bottomline is it's a player by player basis and position really doesnt matter.


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## Sinister (Nov 19, 2007)

Alex no doubt and every GM in the league will say so. Why?

Alex will fight you anytime, he can score at any moment and in the last 2 minutes of the game he is the most dangerous person in the league. He is entertaining and what really puts him over Crosby is one thing...he is having the time of his life. He's like a kid out there, living the dream and doing what he loves. I mean it's not a job to him, it's his passion. Have you ever seen someone who scores 50+ goals each season go absolutely ballistic every time he scores? I don't. 

Don't get me wrong, Crosby is one of the most talented players ever to grace the hockey rink, but Ovechkin brings more than just talent, he brings an attitude no one can duplicate and too me in any sport.


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## ThaFranchise (Dec 24, 2007)

I dont know if I've seen Ovvy fight, but im sure hes much better than that display Cros put on the other night or Alex Semins hammer fists.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

Sinister said:


> Alex will fight you anytime.


That depends on who "you" is. Ovechkin will surely fight Crosby, and beat the hell out of him, but he wouldn't drop the gloves with just anyone. Most of the game's stars won't, unless their team is losing. It's not worth them being off the ice for at least five minutes. 



Sinister said:


> he can score at any moment and in the last 2 minutes of the game he is the most dangerous person in the league.


By the two mentioned merits you find to be in the "best" player in the league, you've pretty much named Jarome Iginla, who, for the record, would beat down Ovechkin in a fight.



Sinister said:


> I mean it's not a job to him, it's his passion.


I actually think this is a point for what puts Crosby above Ovechkin. Crosby treats it like it's his job - he's the first one on the ice, and the last one off it.



Sinister said:


> Have you ever seen someone who scores 50+ goals each season go absolutely ballistic every time he scores? I don't.


Yeah, Pavel Bure...the most entertaining hockey player I've ever seen (apologies Lemieux).



ThaFranchise said:


> I do agree that centers are more responsible for it (as you said its common knowledge), but that doesnt mean that all of them are good defensively or that all wingers arent. And all those playmakers you mentioned needed the goalscorers just as much as the scorers needed them. Malkin and Crosby are BRUTAL defenders dude, not that Ovvy is great, but they are so slack on defense and it was their undoing in the playoffs. I still feel the bottomline is it's a player by player basis and position really doesnt matter.


I'm gonna need some examples here. Hossa said that Crosby was the best defensive center he has played with (I'm sure that has changed now that he's played with Datsyuk), and Crosby's +/- is 32 bests Ovechkin's 23, and he has played far less games as a result of the ankle injury. Both came into the league on horrible teams so the "Crosby had better linemates" spiel doesn't work. To put that in percepctive, Ovechkin's 06-07 +/- was -19 when teammate Gordon Boyd was a +10. Meanwhile Crosby was towards the higher end of his team with +10 rating. He also won the MVP and scoring title that year... There's really nothing to say Ovechkin is better defensively other than your personal opinion.


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## Sinister (Nov 19, 2007)

Got quite the hard on for Crosby do ya?


Guess I may have went a bit over there, but he won't act like most stars and wait for the goons to step in.


In the past yeah I'd give it to Jerome, but where is he this year? Not even close to Alex. But yeah Jerome would kick the living shit out of Alex.

Wow isn't that cliche. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard "first one on and last one off the ice" in hockey I'd be a rich man. And I think your missing what I'm saying by Alex treating it like he's a kid, it's the way he looks out there weather win or lose he's having the funnest time. Crosby I just don't see that passion like Alex does.



Good point, but Bure was also the biggest asshole and self centered player I'd seen. I lived through the Bure era here in Vancouver, great player, terrible attitude.


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## ThaFranchise (Dec 24, 2007)

You're right I dont have stats to back it up, just from what I've seen of them.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

Sinister said:


> Got quite the hard on for Crosby do ya?


Got me there. He's a stud.



Sinister said:


> Guess I may have went a bit over there, but he won't act like most stars and wait for the goons to step in.


Yeah agree. He can more than hold his own.



Sinister said:


> In the past yeah I'd give it to Jerome, but where is he this year? Not even close to Alex. But yeah Jerome would kick the living shit out of Alex.


Iginla is 6th with 46 points.



Sinister said:


> And I think your missing what I'm saying by Alex treating it like he's a kid, it's the way he looks out there weather win or lose he's having the funnest time. Crosby I just don't see that passion like Alex does.


That's the attitude that I kinda like about Crosby. When he loses, he's furious, and you can tell it kills him inside. I do love the way Alex celebrates when his teammates score though.



Sinister said:


> Good point, but Bure was also the biggest asshole and self centered player I'd seen. I lived through the Bure era here in Vancouver, great player, terrible attitude.


Blasphemy. Bure is the man.


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## Negative1 (Feb 4, 2007)

Imagine Bure and Ovie on a team together with Luongo in net. raise01:


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

Negative1 said:


> Imagine Bure and Ovie on a team together with Luongo in net. raise01:


The fact that Bure missed the 95-96 year and post-lockout makes me want to cry. Moginly had 55 goals for Van in 95-96, which means Bure would've had at least 60...heck Jagr had 62 and Lemieux had 69 playing like 60 games.

Pavel Bure in today's game...sigh...lots of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPqwtaFwTJM


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

Crosby is a better overall player. Ovechkin has more skill and is more physically gifted, but Crosby is a very good playmaker. He understands the game like very few others do. He makes everyone around him better. Ovechkin has some cool shit on his highlight reel, but Crosby is the best player in the league, or he will be in a few years.


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## ThaFranchise (Dec 24, 2007)

As I said before I think the argument could be made for either of these guys, but in my opinion Crosby ain't even the best player on his team, Eugene Malkin is bigger, faster, stronger and seems to have a lil more scoring touch.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

ThaFranchise said:


> As I said before I think the argument could be made for either of these guys, but in my opinion Crosby ain't even the best player on his team, Eugene Malkin is bigger, faster, stronger and seems to have a lil more scoring touch.


Evgeni Malkin, not Eugene.

Malkin is a great player, a Hall of Famer for sure, but Crosby is just smarter.


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## ThaFranchise (Dec 24, 2007)

Wawaweewa said:


> Evgeni Malkin, not Eugene.
> 
> Malkin is a great player, a Hall of Famer for sure, but Crosby is just smarter.


Haha Eugene is the english translation of Evgeni (I thought i was being clever). Also I agree Cros is a "smarter" player, he sees the ice very well, but Malkin is more naturally gifted and a better goal scorer.


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## burton_o6 (Oct 30, 2007)

I skipped the replies...Crosby..But Geno is better than both.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

burton_o6 said:


> I skipped the replies...Crosby..But Geno is better than both.


Drew Doughty is better than all 3.


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## burton_o6 (Oct 30, 2007)

Wawaweewa said:


> Drew Doughty is better than all 3.


...LOL

Edit: So I was going to log into our fantasy league(since I haven't in months) and I totally forgot my username.


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## NikosCC (May 16, 2007)

Ovechkin is the better player but crosbey will be the the overall better player in the long run..


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## brownpimp88 (Jun 22, 2006)

All_In_GSP said:


> The fact that Bure missed the 95-96 year and post-lockout makes me want to cry. Moginly had 55 goals for Van in 95-96, which means Bure would've had at least 60...heck Jagr had 62 and Lemieux had 69 playing like 60 games.
> 
> Pavel Bure in today's game...sigh...lots of these:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPqwtaFwTJM


I love Bure as much as the next guy, but you do understand why he didn't play in 95-96? It was selfish and classless. I grew up as a kid loving Bure too but that was terrible.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

brownpimp88 said:


> I love Bure as much as the next guy, but you do understand why he didn't play in 95-96? It was selfish and classless. I grew up as a kid loving Bure too but that was terrible.


Yeah, he blew out his ACL! What do you want the guy to do? Lol


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## brownpimp88 (Jun 22, 2006)

Sorry, lol, got the stats mixed up. I meant the 98-99 season, where he held out for half of the season because he didn't want to play for the Canucks anymore. Truly unprofessional. 

He was a remarkable player tho.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

brownpimp88 said:


> Sorry, lol, got the stats mixed up. I meant the 98-99 season, where he held out for half of the season because he didn't want to play for the Canucks anymore. Truly unprofessional.
> 
> He was a remarkable player tho.


I hear ya, but that's sports for ya.

I never really was able to find his exact reasoning for why he left explained by himself, but from what I can find to read, it appears as though there were a few variables: 1) He did not get along with Keenan; 2) Keenan had traded Bure's closest friend on the team (Odjick) before Burke took over as GM; 3) The Cannucks finished another season in the basement (this I'm not sure how relevant it is considering he didn't have a problem going to Florida...); 4) Vancouver wanted to go through a rebuilding phase, and although Burke had said money wasn't an issue, it would probably be difficult to convince the 27-year old to wait around to rebuild, not to mention difficult to rebuild with a player like Bure commanding close to 10m; 5) Purely speculation but Miami has always been a hotspot for Mafia-related activity and Bure had blatant connections to the Russian Mafia... "Bure sat out despite being scheduled to make $8 million US citing reasons such as not enough privacy in a small, Canadian market, a variety of disputes with management and a desire to play with a winning team."

I was upset when Jagr wanted out of town, but I understood fully why he wanted to leave. Penguins fans still have haste towards him, and I'll never understand that. His name should be on a jersey hanging from the rafters, not thrown in the dirt just because he needed a move in his career; IMO that's part of the profession (then again so is being loved and hated). Jagr didn't sit out like Bure did, but Pittsburgh also catered to Jarg's request. Bure had requested a trade as early as the 95-96 season, and wasn't granted it until he held out in 98. Funny thing is as soon as Vancouver brought in some top-name talent (Alex Mogilny) Bure had begun his requests out of town. Bure played on that classic line with Mogilny and Fedorov in the past, and probably didn't like anyone stealing his thunder, especially a fellow Russian. But that's Bure for you. He was a selfish player, didn't really care for his teammates, and didn't utilize the skill of passing, but damn if didn't make you love watching hockey games. After seeing him score that OT goal against Calgary in game 7 (after tailing 3-1 in the series) I can't fathom being from Vancouver and hating the guy.


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## rdrush (Mar 5, 2007)

Comparing what a center does to a winger on defense is ridiculous. Center acts as a third defenceman clearing out the front, grinding in the corners, starting breakouts. Centers have to be able to do it all. Although for some reason I always found playing a wing harder. 

Who would I want on my team right now? Ovechkin no questions asked. Who would I want to build my team around... Crosby.

Zetterberg imo, is the best player in the league, probably the most underrated athlete in sports today. Now he can do it all, and he proved it last year in the playoffs.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

Personally, I think Datsyuk is better than Zetterberg. He's just as good defensively, is a better passer, and has moves that freeze even the best players. However, I'll agree that Zetterberg is an elite type of player. Even though he isn't having the best season statistically, he does everything to help his team win at the cost of his own personal agenda. Somehow the Wings always seem to find these players...in the 4th round of the draft...and get to sign them long-term for only a 6 million dollar cap hit when another team would easily have a hit of 8. God, that sucks. The Wings' are just the best run hockey team hands down. 

Oh, and Zetterberg's line got the match-up with Crosby last Sunday and Crosby didn't even get a shot on goal. The Wings looked like the play-off Wings...they didn't even have Franzen playing, and their backup was in net (although to be fair Conklin is playing way better than Osgood at this point). Damnit.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

rdrush said:


> Comparing what a center does to a winger on defense is ridiculous. Center acts as a third defenceman clearing out the front, grinding in the corners, starting breakouts. Centers have to be able to do it all. Although for some reason I always found playing a wing harder.


Wing is more focused on physical athleticism. The kind of people who have no defense, skate really fast, have mad dangles, and have great wrist shots always end up on wing. That always sucked for me because I was none of that, and I still played wing. That's why I was stuck on the checking line, although that was also pretty fun.



> Who would I want on my team right now? Ovechkin no questions asked. Who would I want to build my team around... Crosby.


Agree.


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