# Brock Vs unroided Overeem? (same overeem that got KOd by bigfoot)



## Black_S15 (Jul 14, 2010)

hi all

i've been really thinking the last few days since big foot violently knocked out Overeem. 

and before i start, please to all the Brock haters; i am not saying he is the greatest heavyweight of all time nor am i trying to hype him up saying he was an elite martial artist...

however, had overeem not been juiced up to the shithouse against brock, would the out come of their NYE 2010 showdown had been any different?? what do you think?

go back to the Brock Vs overeem fight, to me it just looked as though brock was not able to match overeems strength and power. overeem was tossing brock around the cage like brock was one division below him. and before people jump in to say Cain did the same, Cain used world class technique and skill to beat brock. where as overeem was just too strong. those viscious knees and so effortlessly being able to keep brock against the fence... like he just seemed so strong and powerful. too strong..

against bigfoot overeem was definately not as strong. some might dismiss it as him being too cocky and not respecting bigfoot which i agree with, but surely he lost alot of his strength and possibly self beleif knowing he wasnt juiced... 


purpose of this thread is to know if you guys think the outcome of that fight would of been significantly different if overeem wasnt juicing.

cheers:thumb03:


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## MMATycoon (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm curious to see how long it takes before Reem goes back on the roids and gets caught again.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Roided Reem Vs Second Round Struve would be good.

But it would go the exact same. Reem was just exposed more in the Bigfoot fight. Brock wasn't looking to strike and was too scared to shoot for the take down. Bigfoot was getting the exact same treatment until he went out in that round and started throwing back. Reem on Roids is the same as Reem off Roids. Overbulked Reem is the guy featured in both of them.


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## GlasgowKiss (Sep 18, 2010)

More to the point, I would like to have seen the fit Lesnar before his illnesses, go against Overeem. The Lesnar that fought Overeem was a shadow of the one that crushed Mir


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

It was more psychological. The rookie Brock was the most dangerous. 

1.) He's never been hit before.
2.) Ultra aggressive.
3.) Being that you're a rookie you tend to go with what you're best at. Take down and gnp immediately. He took down Frank Mir who's a black belt in BJJ. He didn't give a shit. Even after he got submitted he took em down again and pounded Mir's face in.

You can tell from the press conference and weigh ins. Brock was no longer the ultra cocky guy he once was.

- faces a life threatening disease
- got hit by Carwin and narrowly escaped that 1st round
- gets bashed by Cain
- goes through a second bout with the disease again

These are all moot points now. Alistair is a far better fighter than Brock and his weight + strength was nullified. Brock went for the takedown and Overeem didn't even move. He ran into a wall then subsequent knees. PEDs had nothing to do with especially since it ended in the 1st. If it were a back and forth match then yes it could have had a role.

Ultimately I'm almost certain the year long layoff was quite detrimental to his training regimen and momentum.


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## Tiptup (Mar 12, 2012)

Lesnar destroyed Miz on raw so you think he'd be able to beet overeem quite easily.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

It's not his body, it's his camp that is the problem. Overeem is still a world class fighter, he just needs a coach who will tell him to keep his f'ing hands up. Overeem had the fight in the bag and literally handed it to Bigfoot on a silver platter.

Standing in front of a 260 pound man trying to punch you with your hands down and chin up = nap time. Bigfoot is not a can, he isn't good enough to beat Cain but Saturday night was a simple case of a terrible camp filled with yes men telling him he's god. He needs a guy like Greg Jackson to yell at him "you're an idiot, keep your hands up, you are nothing until you win"


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

Reem's strength and power seemed no different to me in the Silva fight, he still pushed him away like nothing, worked him against the fence and controlled him on the ground.

Reem's problem in this fight was lack of respect and clashing with Silva head first in the third. YOU DO NOT PLAY BUMPER CARS WITH SOMEONE WHO'S HEAD IS THAT BIG.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Depends. Are we talking pre-illness Brock or post-illness Brock? (LL, get in here!)


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

GlasgowKiss said:


> More to the point, I would like to have seen the fit Lesnar before his illnesses, go against Overeem. The Lesnar that fought Overeem was a shadow of the one that crushed Mir


No, it really, really wasn't. I hate that myth. Even when it got busted it still lives on. Makes me sick.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

OU said:


> No, it really, really wasn't. I hate that myth. Even when it got busted it still lives on. Makes me sick.


Agreed. Brock was always Brock. The signs were always there. People need to wake up to that fact.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

OU said:


> No, it really, really wasn't. I hate that myth. Even when it got busted it still lives on. Makes me sick.


ya me too. Brock was exactly the same as before. he got outclassed due to skill in his last two fights. its just as annoying as people claiming overeem lost because he isnt on roids anymore. i guess it was the roided overeem that kicked bigfoots ass for two rounds

Sent from my SGH-I727R using VerticalSports.Com App


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

Thinking Brock was the same after having major surgery and a serious disease is just plain ignorant. Does your premium membership allow you to be so ridiculous?


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Assuming there was something wrong when Brock himself said he was back to 100% is just plain stupid.

I had major surgery 2 years ago. Can I blame future athletic failings on that?

Brock fans are so blinded by their love for him that they fail to recognize the only difference between Brock pre and post op was who he was fighting. Brock went 1-1 with Mir and beat old man Couture. Brock had one legit win and he got it by hammer fisting Mir. Fast forward to post op and Brock faces Carwin, who he actually does well against.

So why did Brock do so well in the Carwin fight if his illness was affecting him oh so badly? Brock overcame adversity and an unbelievable amount of punishment from Shane to come back and win. 

Guess Brocks illness only affects him when he loses (or maybe it was because Brock was a one trick pony, but hey I am pretty ridiculous, don't listen to me).


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## Hexabob69 (Nov 8, 2008)

Using that same logic one could say Carwin lost because of the pain (he later had surgery as well) he was having; not his lack of conditioning. Anyone else toking that pipe logic?


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

Ape City said:


> Assuming there was something wrong when Brock himself said he was back to 100% is just plain stupid.
> 
> I had major surgery 2 years ago. Can I blame future athletic failings on that?
> 
> ...


it's all nonsense, you think it is reasonable but it's pure nonsense. So what you had surgery, did you ever have part of your colon removed then get kicked their by Overeem 6 months later? Saying he's the same guy is freaking insane, he literally had 12 inches of tissue removed from his insides. No one here is talking about his performances, he always sucked at fighting, you're are just spewing ignorance and bias.


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## dlxrevolution (Jul 16, 2009)

All of these situational fighters are getting pretty ridiculous. If there was an 8 man tournament between Pre-illness Brock, unroided Reem, Second Rd Struve, K1 Maia, Fat and Out of shape Munoz, motivated Penn, Pre-Serra GSP,and Hashad 2.0, I'd put all of my money on The Shogun of PRIDE. :laugh:


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## Hexabob69 (Nov 8, 2008)

dlxrevolution said:


> All of these situational fighters are getting pretty ridiculous. If there was an 8 man tournament between Pre-illness Brock, unroided Reem, Second Rd Struve, K1 Maia, Fat and Out of shape Munoz, motivated Penn, Pre-Serra GSP,and Hashad 2.0, I'd put all of my money on The Shogun of PRIDE. :laugh:



When is that card coming... I want the PPV!!


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## duckyou666 (Mar 17, 2011)

Thing is, Reem, as overrated as I think he is, destroys Brock, who was equally overrated. You put Brock in Silva's place in the last fight, there is no 3rd round. Hell, I'd be shocked if it made it out of round 1.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

rabakill said:


> it's all nonsense, you think it is reasonable but it's pure nonsense. So what you had surgery, did you ever have part of your colon removed then get kicked their by Overeem 6 months later? Saying he's the same guy is freaking insane, he literally had 12 inches of tissue removed from his insides. No one here is talking about his performances, *he always sucked at fighting*, you're are just spewing ignorance and bias.


So how on earth can you attribute being beaten down by the current HW champion Cain to a medical issue if you think he always sucked? What would have been different had it been pre-surgery if you acknowledge the skill wasn't there in the first place? You are simply creating a correlation between two events and ignoring the simplest explanation, which I highlighted in your post.

And you still haven't explained how this post surgery Lesnar was able to survive an onslaught from Carwin and go on to win in the second.

Look, i'm not trying to argue he was literally not affected by his illness and surgery. I'm sure he was. But to automatically make a correlation between his performances post surgery is silly, especially when Lesnar stated he was 100%. Add to that Lesnar did well versus Carwin and i'm not even sure why anyone argues about this. I would say Carwin was the best win of Lesnar's career, and that was his first fight back. I again acknowledge that the surgery must have affected him, but he came back and won.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

Are we talking pre-illness or post-illness Brock.....

......

Pre-illness Brock murders all, and yes I am the last Lesnar nuthugger left.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)




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## Black_S15 (Jul 14, 2010)

getting a little of topic here lol...

i think overeem lost abit of his confidence not knowing he was on the juice. cro cop mentioned the same thing and he definately looked less defined at the weigh ins. and i think he may of lost a bit of his strength and ferociousness.

would it of made a difference to the outcome of the fight with brock.. dont know. maybe, maybe not


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

How can you say he lost confidence? Overeem was clowning him in round one and two, he was so overconfident in round three that...well..you saw what he did. Overeem underestimated Bigfoot's striking and got ktfo. I don't understand how that can be attributed to ped use. The roids didn't make his chin stronger and ego smaller.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

If the fight happens at the same time, Lesnar still loses. Shots to his midsection after the illness would always have been a mental thing if not physical. Brock post Carwin? I think Brock stands a chance at least.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

SM33 said:


> Reem's strength and power seemed no different to me in the Silva fight, he still pushed him away like nothing, worked him against the fence and controlled him on the ground.
> Reem's problem in this fight was lack of respect and clashing with Silva head first in the third. *YOU DO NOT PLAY BUMPER CARS WITH SOMEONE WHO'S HEAD IS THAT BIG.*


That was a fantastic line. I think Big Head should really come up with bobble head figurines of himself. I really think it would be a best seller that in addition to those air punching bags. You know the ones for kids. 

I mean every time I see him I really feel like he's going to fall over. I really wonder how he keeps his equilibrium.
If they ever made a remake of Addams Family he would win the role of Lurch hands down. Dana White would play Uncle Fester.


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## BWoods (Apr 8, 2007)

Brock never could take a shot, pre or post illness. See how he reacted to the jumping knee Mir threw at him in their second fight. He completely crumples for a second before gripping that single leg for dear life and taking the fight to the ground. Brock was never good at taking a punch and refused to allow people to spar hard with him. His training routines consisted of lifting weights and wrestling.

Overeem would have demolished him either way. In the Bigfoot fight he was still the stronger of the two fighters, every time they clinched he was in clear control. Notice how he always managed to turn Silva into the fence and never ended up in a bad position. Alistair even threw Bigfoot like a child and maintained top-control for half a round. At the end of the day it was his game planning and lack of discipline that caused the loss, not because he was on or off any PEDs.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

That Jerry Maquire kid said that a human head weighs eight pounds. Here's a list of data you guys might find interesting.

Brock's head - 16 pounds
Overeem's " - 12 pounds
Rampage's " - 20 pounds
Big Foot's Orangutan head - 36 pounds

The winner, none of the above. It's actually Tito Ortiz' weighing in at a whopping 50 pounds. That's 25% of his body weight. 

Source: wikipedia/No Mercy


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

I put Overeems loss to bigfoot down to nothing more than underestimating him. I dont think being off the roids had much effect and I think a Roided Reem would have still lost, going into that fight the way he did.

That being said, If Reem and Bigfoot were to fight 10 more times, I'd expect Reem to win 10 of them.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Killz said:


> I put Overeems loss to bigfoot down to nothing more than underestimating him. I dont think being off the roids had much effect and I think a Roided Reem would have still lost, going into that fight the way he did.


A roided Overeem might have won that fight. Not because of more strength, but because of higher aggression and less playing around.


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## The Best Around (Oct 18, 2011)

Eh it's tough to say. Even if they fought pre-illness, I'd probably give the edge to Overeem, and I'm probably the biggest Lesnar fan here. But Lesnar would have had a better chance because of his "I'm going to take you to the ground and do whatever I want" mentality. Whereas in the last fight, he was scared to do anything and was almost just waiting for it to be over.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

OU said:


> No, it really, really wasn't. I hate that myth. Even when it got busted it still lives on. Makes me sick.


I've been watching Brock since college, and the illness clearly effected his personality and most likely effected him physically as well.



Ape City said:


> So how on earth can you attribute being beaten down by the current HW champion Cain to a medical issue if you think he always sucked? What would have been different had it been pre-surgery if you acknowledge the skill wasn't there in the first place? You are simply creating a correlation between two events and ignoring the simplest explanation, which I highlighted in your post.
> 
> And you still haven't explained how this post surgery Lesnar was able to survive an onslaught from Carwin and go on to win in the second.
> 
> Look, i'm not trying to argue he was literally not affected by his illness and surgery. I'm sure he was. But to automatically make a correlation between his performances post surgery is silly, especially when Lesnar stated he was 100%. Add to that Lesnar did well versus Carwin and i'm not even sure why anyone argues about this. I would say Carwin was the best win of Lesnar's career, and that was his first fight back. I again acknowledge that the surgery must have affected him, but he came back and won.


Carwin fight was pre-surgery. He didn't have surgery the first time the illness flared up, that's likely why it came back with a vengeance.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

oh i thought it was pre! ill have to refresh my memory later.

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## usernamewoman (Sep 24, 2007)

can we please just forget about brock lesnar, he is done with mma. he was never that great of a champ, he was the equivalent of kevin randleman when he had the title


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

usernamewoman said:


> can we please just forget about brock lesnar, he is done with mma. he was never that great of a champ, he was the equivalent of kevin randleman when he had the title


Randleman would have steamrolled Brock.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

OU said:


> Randleman would have steamrolled Brock.


Oh snap son!


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## The Best Around (Oct 18, 2011)

usernamewoman said:


> can we please just forget about brock lesnar, he is done with mma. he was never that great of a champ, he was the equivalent of kevin randleman when he had the title


Do you enjoy UFC being on Fox? If so, you can thank Mr. Lesnar.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

Are we stopping talking about people who have quit MMA? In that case I want to see no more talk of Fedor. :confused02:


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

OU said:


> Randleman would have steamrolled Brock.


Retarded


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

This just seems right at home here:


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

Overeem still wins. The fight would probably go the same way. Lesnar's chin itself isn't that bad, but his pain threshold was pretty awful for a UFC fighter.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

If Brock was the fighter he used to be when that fight took place he would have beat Reem even if he was juiced up.


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## IllegalLegKick (Apr 13, 2010)

GlasgowKiss said:


> More to the point, I would like to have seen the fit Lesnar before his illnesses, go against Overeem. The Lesnar that fought Overeem was a shadow of the one that crushed Mir


Exactly the Diverticulitis is what ended his career. Personally I think even against Cain it would have been a very different fight had he never been sick.


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## IllegalLegKick (Apr 13, 2010)

Ape City said:


> So how on earth can you attribute being beaten down by the current HW champion Cain to a medical issue if you think he always sucked? What would have been different had it been pre-surgery if you acknowledge the skill wasn't there in the first place? You are simply creating a correlation between two events and ignoring the simplest explanation, which I highlighted in your post.
> 
> And you still haven't explained how this post surgery Lesnar was able to survive an onslaught from Carwin and go on to win in the second.
> 
> Look, i'm not trying to argue he was literally not affected by his illness and surgery. I'm sure he was. But to automatically make a correlation between his performances post surgery is silly, especially when Lesnar stated he was 100%. Add to that Lesnar did well versus Carwin and i'm not even sure why anyone argues about this. I would say Carwin was the best win of Lesnar's career, and that was his first fight back. I again acknowledge that the surgery must have affected him, but he came back and won.


Your missing the point Lesnar's success was never based on his skill but his freakish strength and agility for a man that size. Lesnar was a good wrestler definitely not technically as good as Cain but to think that the Lesnar that fought Cain was as strong as the Lesnar before surgery is just crazy. 

Frank Mir bulked up to over 265 to try and match Brocks strength and Brock made him look like a Lightweight. To think a man much smaller man than Brock (Cain) could throw him off at every takedown attempt is pretty ridiculous before Brock lost a foot of his intestines.

You do realize Brock was a national champion wrestler fighting much larger men than Cain right??


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## Swiss (Jul 19, 2011)

Some pretty lame excuses here and people clinging for dear life to the "foot of colon" theory without having a clue what they're talking about. The colon is about 6 foot long and is the large intestine so it doesn't really do anything much except suck up a bit of water and store up your crap. Missing a few inches isn't going to make a difference to anything that counts. Would love to know how this equates to getting outwrestled or curling up like a bunny whenever he gets popped on the chin.:dunno:

The guy was a flat track bully who got found out. Simple. He was still kind of fun to watch though and I wouldn't have minded seeing roided Brock vs unroided Reem but I reckon, even off the roids, Overeem has too much for him.


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## dutch sauce (Sep 24, 2006)

anyone who thinks that steroids played a role in the results of the last fight, has no idea at all about how r why it works, and how it had 0 effect on the fight. Funny how overeem looked and weighed the same with and without. If anyone doesnt udnerstand the T:E ratio of overeem, was it off yes, but it was not off even close enough to illicit a increased anabolic effect of muscle tissue, It barely passed the threshold for giving a boost to libido. All theses steroid threads are stupid when 99% of you dont have any idea what it entails and make false judgements. Oh ya, and im not a overeem fan at all btw


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

A liver kick that clean would have dropped Brock and almost anyone, roids or not. A hard kick comes more from proper technique then the strength of your quads. 

Cerrone's no bitch, but he reacted the exact same way to Pettis' liver kick.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

IllegalLegKick said:


> Your missing the point *Lesnar's success was never based on his skill but his freakish strength and agility for a man that size*. Lesnar was a good wrestler definitely not technically as good as Cain but to think that the Lesnar that fought Cain was as strong as the Lesnar before surgery is just crazy.
> 
> Frank Mir bulked up to over 265 to try and match Brocks strength and Brock made him look like a Lightweight. To think a man much smaller man than Brock (Cain) could throw him off at every takedown attempt is pretty ridiculous before Brock lost a foot of his intestines.
> 
> *You do realize Brock was a national champion wrestler fighting much larger men than Cain right??*


What exactly made you think Brock had lost strength in some form or another in the Cain fight? I'd really like a specific example of this! Lesnar tried for two take downs and got one. The real story of that fight was Cains striking and pressure. 

Are you arguing that Brock lost so much strength from the illness he was unable to take Cain down? 'Cause Brock weighed in at 264 for the Cain fight, and 266 for the Overeem fight, which shows he was clearly cutting weight to get to 265.

The two points I highlighted in your post show how hypocritical you are being. First you say Lesnar's success was solely based on physical attributes then you remind us he is a national champion wrestler, indicating a high level of skill. Which is it? Clearly it is both, and as you even indicated in your post, Cain has more skill and less strength. 

I think if there is one thing we have learned over the years in mma is that quite often technique > size. Brock is just a perfect example of the division becoming more skilled and growing. Brock simply didn't have the skill to hang at the top. This was just another case of size vs skill, just like:


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## IllegalLegKick (Apr 13, 2010)

Ape City said:


> What exactly made you think Brock had lost strength in some form or another in the Cain fight? I'd really like a specific example of this! Lesnar tried for two take downs and got one. The real story of that fight was Cains striking and pressure.
> 
> Are you arguing that Brock lost so much strength from the illness he was unable to take Cain down? 'Cause Brock weighed in at 264 for the Cain fight, and 266 for the Overeem fight, which shows he was clearly cutting weight to get to 265.
> 
> ...


For starters your a bit confused as to what hypocritical means, a hypocrite is someone who tells people not to do something and then goes and does it themselves. The word you looking for is contradictory but enough with the english lesson. What I said wasn't actually a contradiction because I never claimed that Brock's success in wrestling wasn't based in part to his strength and athleticism. 

At the end of the day I'm not all that concerned with what your opinion is so I won't be responding after this. I just thought that it was pretty clear Brock was not nearly as strong as he was when he first started MMA compared to when he fought Cain. I just think based on Lesnar's previous accomplishments and the way he just handled people it seemed that the surgery took a big toll on him. When Cain was able to just stuff his takedowns and then get right back up when he did get him down. Regardless of Cain's technique I don't think you can say that was the same Lesnar. I'm pretty sure at least a few of those 106 men Brock out wrestled in college had pretty good technique as well.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Thanks for the lesson. Also, great to know you are interested in discussion. I love responses that start with "I don't care what you say i'm leaving after this".

Once again you could not actually give me one piece of evidence that Lesnar actually lost a significant amount of strength, just that it "seemed" that way to you. Even worse, you just keep using the fact Cain stuffed his take downs as evidence of strength loss when he had never fought a wrestler of Cain's caliber in the first place to compare it to. not one that punches him in the face like that anyways. lets not forget that factor.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

Ape City said:


> So how on earth can you attribute being beaten down by the current HW champion Cain to a medical issue if you think he always sucked?


people are so damn stupid, it boggles my mind. You are a lunatic man, way way off the deep end. Making arguments out of things people never said acting like the mmaforum dictator, get a life. I know we aren't supposed to insult forum members but somebody needs to tell you to just shut up with your nonsense, stop putting words in people's mouth and shut up.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

rabakill said:


> somebody needs to tell you to just shut up with your nonsense, stop putting words in people's mouth and shut up.


First of all:






Second:



rabakill said:


> stop putting words in people's mouth





rabakill said:


> No one here is talking about his performances, *he always sucked at fighting*, you're are just spewing ignorance and bias.


Sorry I didn't realize someone else typed this for you.

Honestly, i'm not sure what has got you so riled up. I don't recall acting like a dictator, I just asked a few people to provide some evidence to support their arguments. And once again instead of answering the question you just flip out and insult me.


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## Black_S15 (Jul 14, 2010)

Who knows if the out come would of been any different.

Reem just seemed so much more aggressive and wanted to get the job against Brock. 

Perhaps the steroids gave him that aggression to go in and finish the job and do it quick against Brock. Keeping his hands down against big foot was not over confidence , it was foolishness. The fact that he was not on roids meant his ferociousness and aggression and willingness to end the fight quick wasn't there. You could even argue that the fact he was not on the roids meant he was scared to go in and try to finish because he deemed that as too risky. Jacked up on roids may have given him the mental state required to go in aggressively and finish Bigfoot with out fear. 

It's possible that because he wasn't on the roids, he decided to play safe and win the comfortable decision because he did not have enough confidence that he could finish big foot.

Overroid fans, please don't get your knickers in a knot.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Roids didn't help him keep his hands up. That's why he lost. Overeem was doing exactly what he should have been doing at first, so if that's how he acts without roids then I don't see the problem. Overeem needed to avoided a brawl, and keep picking him apart. Like you said he got foolish and dropped his hands. Had Overeem come in super aggressive he might have gotten koed in round one.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

IllegalLegKick said:


> Your missing the point Lesnar's success was never based on his skill but his freakish strength and agility for a man that size. Lesnar was a good wrestler definitely not technically as good as Cain *but to think that the Lesnar that fought Cain was as strong as the Lesnar before surgery is just crazy.
> *
> Frank Mir bulked up to over 265 to try and match Brocks strength and Brock made him look like a Lightweight. To think a man much smaller man than Brock (Cain) could throw him off at every takedown attempt is pretty ridiculous before Brock lost a foot of his intestines.
> 
> You do realize Brock was a national champion wrestler fighting much larger men than Cain right??


He had a hard time getting Randy down and when he did, Randy got back up quickly and he's a small old man.

Frank Mir never bulked up to 265 in the rematch. he bulked up after it. Mir stuffed all of Lesnars takedowns but one and Brock let him up. the fight hit the mat after Mir rolled for a kneebar in the first rd and then threw a jumping knee while Brock had a single in the 2nd.

He never would have out-wrestled Cain at any stage.


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## GlasgowKiss (Sep 18, 2010)

OU said:


> No, it really, really wasn't. I hate that myth. Even when it got busted it still lives on. Makes me sick.


I'm sorry but this isn't a myth. I've never been a fan of Brock's nor do I think he was ever the best heavyweight in the biz particularly, but the Brock that came into UFC was an absolute monster who was in peak physical condition - he was strong and bloody quick as well.

One almost fatal illness and having half your colon removed clearly will impact upon what physical condition you are in. Lesnar will never be a great striker, nor good at taking a shot, but when he was in the peak of his health, he looked a lot harder to stop when taking someone down.

The Lesnar that faced Overeem was a blobby, podgy mess who was far from in the peak physical condition that he entered the UFC in. I would've liked to see if Overeem could've stopped the takedown shot and GnP of a Lesnar who had all his strength and quickness. I never said anywhere that Lesnar would've won nor am I a Lesnar fan, so its interesting to see people just jumping to conclusions and making shit up just to suit their own rants.

Hows your temp ?



OU said:


> No, it really, really wasn't. I hate that myth. Even when it got busted it still lives on. Makes me sick.





Ape City said:


> ya me too. Brock was exactly the same as before. he got outclassed due to skill in his last two fights. its just as annoying as people claiming overeem lost because he isnt on roids anymore. i guess it was the roided overeem that kicked bigfoots ass for two rounds
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I727R using VerticalSports.Com App


You as well. ^^^^^


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

GlasgowKiss said:


> I'm sorry but this isn't a myth. I've never been a fan of Brock's nor do I think he was ever the best heavyweight in the biz particularly, but the Brock that came into UFC was an absolute monster who was in peak physical condition - he was strong and bloody quick as well.
> 
> One almost fatal illness and having half your colon removed clearly will impact upon what physical condition you are in. Lesnar will never be a great striker, nor good at taking a shot, but when he was in the peak of his health, he looked a lot harder to stop when taking someone down.
> 
> ...


LOL at calling the Brock that fought Reem a "blobby, podgy mess". If anything resulted in his loss of muscle it was being further removed from his steroid use during this WWE days. But he was still a very large, strong and lean man. He wasn't like flabby Cain, who whooped his ass. Brock still had his physical strength, you are the one that assuming he didn't. There really wasn't much difference between Brock that fought Mir and Brock that fought Cain. He was still a very large, very strong man that was very raw in terms of MMA skills.


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## GlasgowKiss (Sep 18, 2010)

OU said:


> LOL at calling the Brock that fought Reem a "blobby, podgy mess". If anything resulted in his loss of muscle it was being further removed from his steroid use during this WWE days. But he was still a very large, strong and lean man. He wasn't like flabby Cain, who whooped his ass. *Brock still had his physical strength, you are the one that assuming he didn't. There really wasn't much difference between Brock that fought Mir and Brock that fought Cain.* He was still a very large, very strong man that was very raw in terms of MMA skills.


Thats interesting, now kindly point me in the direction where I mentioned anything about Brock's condition when he was fighting Cain ?

I'm not assuming that he didn't 'have his physical strength', I'm hypothesising that it may have been depleted somewhat by TWO major illnesses.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

Is this a real question?

Y'all already know pre-illness Brock wins.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

GlasgowKiss said:


> I'm not assuming that he didn't 'have his physical strength', I'm hypothesising that it may have been depleted somewhat by TWO major illnesses.


We are hypothesizing that Brock was simply outclassed in terms of skill and that strength had nothing to do with it. Goes both ways and no way to prove it one way or another.


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## Black_S15 (Jul 14, 2010)

wow.... overeems roid fueled win against brock seems even more irrelevent now that rothwell and Browne knocked the crap out of him.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Brock all the way. 

Overeem's vaunted striking was pure roid power supplementing some decent technique. Before the roids, people used to walk through it and KO him on a regular basis, like Chuck and Kharitonov for example. I doubt he'd have the firepower to stop a Brock bullrush without the roids.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Overeem all the way because brock still cant take a punch roided or not.

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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Ape City said:


> Overeem all the way because brock still cant take a punch roided or not.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Brock took Carwin's punches, still made it, then choked him out in Rd 2. Carwin is widely considered the hardest hitter of all time in MMA.

It was all roids, Overeem can't finish a duck without them. He hasn't had a single finish since he came off and is 1-3. Before he started roids too, his finishes were all cans, subs and a single legit TKO against Kharitonov. Other than that he had zero stopping power, which he's back to now clearly.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> Brock all the way.


I agree...


I don't even believe that roids would be the deciding factor. Horse meat or no, a 100% pre diverticulitis Brock would destroy Overeem. It would look a lot like Brock vs Mir 2.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

oldfan said:


> I agree...
> 
> 
> I don't even believe that roids would be the deciding factor. Horse meat or no, a 100% pre diverticulitis Brock would destroy Overeem. It would look a lot like Brock vs Mir 2.


Agreed it was basically the worst Brock against the most bloated Overeem, an extreme matchup that shouldn't even count really. 

Diverticultis is serious business and takes a while to recover from, and Overeem was off the charts in terms of roids. 

Any other sport and Overeem's wins from that time would all have been overturned, like Ben Johnson's T&F medals being awared to Carl Lewis retroactively. Yet here people are still considering it a legit win even today.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Agreed it was basically the worst Brock against the most bloated Overeem, an extreme matchup that shouldn't even count really.
> 
> Diverticultis is serious business and takes a while to recover from, and Overeem was off the charts in terms of roids.
> 
> Any other sport and Overeem's wins from that time would all have been overturned, like Ben Johnson's T&F medals being awared to Carl Lewis retroactively. Yet here people are still considering it a legit win even today.


The thing about the Reem is whenever he kicks you he seriously funks you up roids or no roids. No man can just absorb those without serious injury. I'd still be willing to bet Browne has some remnant injury from that early beating he took, and we saw rothwell had a broken arm from the first kick thrown. 
I reckon one accurate kick to the gut and brock would cripple up again, he of all the HWs can probably take the least of those. He'd have to get in his face Chael style or it would be the same result.


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## King Daisuke (Mar 25, 2013)

usernamewoman said:


> can we please just forget about brock lesnar, he is done with mma. he was never that great of a champ, he was the equivalent of kevin randleman when he had the title


For your information: Brock Lesnar still holds the record for the most title defences at HW. I think you owe someone an apology.


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## King Daisuke (Mar 25, 2013)

Guys. Look at this picture. This is Alistair Overeem before steroids and horse meat. This man would not have a chance against Brock Lesnar.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Black_S15 said:


> hi all
> 
> i've been really thinking the last few days since big foot violently knocked out Overeem.
> 
> ...


Couldn't be more wrong. Overeem basically walked Lesnar down and Lesnar was backpedaling and hesitand where as Overeem was full of confidence. And he didn't really keep him against the cage using strength. He was striking from a distance, Lesnar himself didn't circle out and was keen on staying against it.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Liddellianenko said:


> Brock took Carwin's punches, still made it, then choked him out in Rd 2. Carwin is widely considered the hardest hitter of all time in MMA.
> 
> It was all roids, Overeem can't finish a duck without them. He hasn't had a single finish since he came off and is 1-3. Before he started roids too, his finishes were all cans, subs and a single legit TKO against Kharitonov. Other than that he had zero stopping power, which he's back to now clearly.


I honestly believe it has a lot more to do with Brock being mentally shattered and terrified to take a punch after his sickness. To me Brock looked terrified going into that fight and I think he was really worried about taking a punch from Overeem.

Brock is a terrible striker and incredibly one dimensional. The whole division is still a joke in terms of how well rounded the fighters are compared to other divisions. Brock coming into the HW division and becoming champion just showed how terrible everyone else really was in terms of pure skill. 

Werdum and Overeem basically fought to a stalemate and now Werdum is about to become the interim champ because the only fighter in the HW division who has been well rounded for more than a couple years is injured again. if Overeem is really that terrible then what does a fight like Reem vs. Werdum say, where roids clearly did not factor into it.

I just don't understand the reverse Brock love. The further away we get from Brock's reign the more confident I am that Brock was flash in the pan and basically entered the weakest division at the perfect time. Brock was a skilled wrestler that learned to use his previously roided to hell body to hammer fist a few people.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Ape City said:


> The further away we get from Brock's reign the more confident I am that Brock was flash in the pan and basically entered the weakest division at the perfect time. Brock was a skilled wrestler that learned to use his previously roided to hell body to hammer fist a few people.


I could not possibly agree with that more. :thumbsup:


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