# Jon Jones: “I feel terrible, but it also wasn’t my decision to cancel the whole card



## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

> ​
> In the immediate wake created by yesterday’s UFC 151 debacle UFC President Dana White blasted Jon Jones and coach Greg Jackson in a conference call, Dan Henderson ensured fans he would be back after recovering from his knee injury, Chael Sonnen called “Bones” a plethora of names, fighters scheduled for the event complained openly, and countless fans cried out in disappointment. However, one of the key players in the agitating affair remained silent on the matter – Jones himself.
> The polarizing pugilist has since spoken up to explain his side of the situation, expressing no remorse for declining what would have been a show-saving scrap with Sonnen while offering an apology to the promotional peers and fans affected by the card’s cancellation.
> *“I signed a contract a long time ago to fight Dan Henderson. That’s what I studied for, and that’s what I prepared myself for. To take a fight with a different opponent in which I would basically have three days of training before traveling and then starting to cut weight I just thought would be the dumbest idea ever. I wouldn’t have been properly prepared,” said Jones in an interview with MMAJunkie. “Chael is completely different fighter. This is war. This is strategy. You have to go in there prepared and know that you did your homework. I wouldn’t be the same warrior if I just jumped in there blindly and was cutting weight while I was trying to prepare for the fight.”
> ...


*Fiveouncesofpain*

Right now i think Jones is getting way, way too much heat for this. Dana did a very good point and blame job here. The UFC isn't a team sport and it's not his job to put together an event. Jones had been prepared for Hendo for a long time, all the media stuff, weight cutting etc. Try to see it from his point of view. Meanwhile Sonnen had just been TKO'd and offered a title fight in a division he had not competed in 7 years. Props to him for accepting but to say his the man with balls of steel is a tad much. The UFC dropped the ball for running a card with only one fight.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

Personally, I think its a cop out.

He is in fight shape and Chael is not. he's had weeks and weeks of a fight camp, preparing for a wrestler. Yeah, a slightly different style of wrestler but there is a reason why so many people are hating on Jones here and personally, whilst I agree, the UFC are partly to blame, I place 90% of the blame at the feet of Jon Jones and Greg Jackson.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Yeah, I agree with Jones. I'm sure, me, and everyone else, would have been happy to see Ellenberger Vs Hieron as the headline for the PPV.





Jones ruined this card. Fighting Chael Sonnen was nothing and as Sonnen said himself, this was the best chance he'll ever have to beat him (although he doesn't really NEED an increased chance). Complete joke. WAR VITOR


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Killz said:


> Personally, I think its a cop out.
> 
> He is in fight shape and Chael is not. he's had weeks and weeks of a fight camp, preparing for a wrestler. Yeah, a slightly different style of wrestler but there is a reason why so many people are hating on Jones here and personally, whilst I agree, the UFC are partly to blame, I place 90% of the blame at the feet of Jon Jones and Greg Jackson.


I'm blaming both parties a bit but not Greg Jackson. He, along with the other guys from the team voiced out their opinion. Everybody knows him so only his opinion was made public. Danas reaction was a bit too harsh for simply giving advice.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

*I would basically have three days of training before traveling and then starting to cut weight I just thought would be the dumbest idea ever.*

Sole reason why I'm now a Chael Sonnen fan, Jones is no damn warrior, Bisping,Chael, even damn Kimbo Slice took a fight on short notice. Not a smart decision on Kimbo's part, however Jones would have murdered Chael regardless of what he thinks.

Imagine had Shogun turned down Jones on the New Jersey night?


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## VikingKing (Dec 3, 2011)

"but I’ve got to do what makes me happy and feels right to me. At the end of the day, I have to make the best choice for me and my family.”"

What about being NOT selfish for a second and help your boss out with this? They ask you for a favor and all you think about is me me me me me.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

It's Dana's fault for putting together such a shit card with only one fight. Nice scapegoating job too.

Chael and Henderson are completely different fighters. One just dives for takedowns all night, the other likes to stand and bang. The "wrestler" tag is oversimplifying.

Of course Chael took the fight. ANYONE would. It's FOR THE BELT. With NO WORK WHATSOEVER. It's not about balls, he has everything to gain and nothing to lose. If he loses it's because he had no camp. If he wins, he's CHAMP.

It's the other way round for Jones. If he wins, he gets NOTHING except "he just beat a guy without a camp" comments. If he loses he loses everything. And for what? "fans" who would still hate him regardless and dissect everything he says.

Also Chael doesn't need to train specifically for Jones, he does the same damn thing every fight regardless of who he's fighting because that's all he knows how to do, and admittedly is pretty good at it. Jones would need to train COMPLETELY differently for Chael though because he probably wasn't training for a guy double legging him all night.

Why not offer the fight to gustaf, davis, glover or AN ACTUAL LHW instead of some guy with an active twitter? I guarantee you many would jump to accept a freebie title shot.

But no follow the bald demagogue and hate who he tells you to hate.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> It's Dana's fault for putting together such a shit card with only one fight. Nice scapegoating job too.
> 
> Chael and Henderson are completely different fighters. One just dives for takedowns all night, the other likes to stand and bang. The "wrestler" tag is oversimplifying.
> 
> ...


Objectively if Jones loses to Chael, wouldn't that mean he would lose to Chael again with a full camp? Chael said it best the better man always wins no matter what. It's not like Chael is gonna KO him out, he is gonna beat his ass for 25 minutes for a decision. He fought,Bader,Evans, and I'm sure he was preparing for Henderson's wrestling.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Liddellianenko said:


> It's Dana's fault for putting together such a shit card with only one fight. Nice scapegoating job too.
> 
> Chael and Henderson are completely different fighters. One just dives for takedowns all night, the other likes to stand and bang. The "wrestler" tag is oversimplifying.
> 
> ...


Jones had nothing to lose? What about the huge portion of Bones fans now cheering for Sonnen?


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Jones had nothing to lose? What about the huge portion of Bones fans now cheering for Sonnen?


Bones haters you mean. Which bones fan on this forum for example has turned?

These are the same people who nitpicked and dissected every word he says, like using the "normal" for people not in athletic competition etc, and hating him for it.



marcthegame said:


> Objectively if Jones loses to Chael, wouldn't that mean he would lose to Chael again with a full camp? Chael said it best the better man always wins no matter what. It's not like Chael is gonna KO him out, he is gonna beat his ass for 25 minutes for a decision. He fought,Bader,Evans, and I'm sure he was preparing for Henderson's wrestling.


No that's not objective at all, you're basically saying training camps and gameplanning are completely useless, which is not logical or supported by what we actually see.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Bones haters you mean. Which bones fan on this forum for example has turned?
> 
> These are the same people who nitpicked and dissected every word he says, like using the "normal" for people not in athletic competition etc, and hating him for it.


No, I disagree with this.

There have been loads of people on this forum, who were Bones supporters who have come out and said that Bones has disappointed them and they are no longer fans... and that is just on this forum!


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Liddellianenko said:


> Bones haters you mean. Which bones fan on this forum for example has turned?


Me. Before I had Machida in my sig, the LHW name was JBJ.

But besides me, there are loads of people who are JBJ fans. But look around, you're the only one REALLY sticking up for him. Either people have turned, or they know that what he did was ridicuslous and are keeping their mouths shut. I usually don't give a fuk about the 'politics'. I like fights, it's as simple as that. Him being cocky on twitter or whatever doesn't effect me because I respect his skills in the cage and he is an exciting fighter. But when the politics result in fights getting cancelled, that's when I start to hate someone.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Killz said:


> No, I disagree with this.
> 
> There have been loads of people on this forum, who were Bones supporters who have come out and said that Bones has disappointed them and they are no longer fans... and that is just on this forum!


Name one. Preferably one with previous comments praising jones and not some dude with 20 posts claiming to be no longer a bones fan when he probably never was.

What I do see are hypocrites like this:



TheAuger said:


> As for Lyoto, this makes sense for him to wait and have a full training camp. He is already in line to get a shot next, so him waiting shouldn't cause him to much time till he gets his shot. That is unless his situation turns out like Rashad's.





TheAuger said:


> Other than the H-bomb, Hendo & Sonnen are very similar. It would be an easier fight against Sonnen.
> 
> You must have forgotten how Jon "Spineless" Jones got his title shot. Let me refresh your memory, it was as a short notice(2-3 weeks)injury replacement. Injuries happen & fighters should be expected to stay on the card and fight the injured fighter's replacement.


Oh when Machida turns down the fight, it's smart. When Jones does, it's spineless. Even when Jones has a TITLE TO LOSE.

The irrational hate would've been there regardless.



ClydebankBlitz said:


> Me. Before I had Machida in my sig, the LHW name was JBJ.
> 
> But besides me, there are loads of people who are JBJ fans. But look around, you're the only one REALLY sticking up for him. Either people have turned, or they know that what he did was ridicuslous and are keeping their mouths shut. I usually don't give a fuk about the 'politics'. I like fights, it's as simple as that. Him being cocky on twitter or whatever doesn't effect me because I respect his skills in the cage and he is an exciting fighter. But when the politics result in fights getting cancelled, that's when I start to hate someone.


All I've ever seen you post is how you wanted Hendo to KO jones and how you disliked his personality. Yeah maybe you respect his fighting abilities but so does everyone else who irrationally hates him.

And plenty of others are defending bones. John4345 or whatever his name is, limba, and anyone who isn't just reacting blindly to the scapegoating job done by dana. 

Bones isn't even one of my favorite fighters, but I am defending him because the hatred against him from the very beginning strikes me as complete bias and hypocrisy.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Liddle, what difference does it make with Jones fighting someone in 8 days vs the 22nd? He is ready for a fight, he had a training camp etc. If he is willing to fight Chael or whoever on the 22nd? Why can't he do it on the first? 

A fight is a fight, but people are looking pass what he said about strategy etc. **** that shit, had Jon Jones not been a greg jackson fighter he would have fought any man on the 1st.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

Look the card cancellation isn't technically Jones' fault but the UFC have come to him and said 'look we're in a tricky situation here after all we've done for you can you help us out here' and Jones has said no. Personally I understand to a point but its annoying that in the past Bones has claimed in interviews that he is a compasionate caring honest person - he has even said he is a company man. 

This situation has showed him to be a selfish man driven by money. So PLEASE can he drop the good guy act now!


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Name one. Preferably one with previous comments praising jones and not some dude with 20 posts claiming to be no longer a bones fan when he probably never was.
> 
> What I do see are hypocrites like this
> 
> ...


Oh I agree the hate would have been there regardless.

Got to be honest though, I dont have the time or the energy to scroll through 20000+ pages of Bones hate to find posters who were once fans. :thumb02:


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

The differences between Machida turning down a fight and Jones turning it down is completely different.

Jones was offered an out of shape 185 pounder after having a FULL training camp and was scheduled to fight at the event anyways. Machida was offered a fight with a guy who has choked him unconcious, with 8 days prep time. I'm sure the next time Machida faces Jones he wants to be fully prepared, otherwise he's 0-2 against the champ and we all know what that does to fighters.

I was always half on half off with Bones. Now, I'm off.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Jeff Hougland can't pay his daughter's school clothes with an apology. According to Dana Jones knew they would cancel the card if he didn't step up. Not sure who to believe.


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## The Best Around (Oct 18, 2011)

He speaks the truth, although I wish he took the fight.

And for people who now become Bones haters, his drawing power will go up anyway. This got a lot of attention in the sports world.


Sent from my iPhone using VS Free


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

The Best Around said:


> He speaks the truth, although I wish he took the fight.
> 
> And for people who now become Bones haters, his drawing power will go up anyway. This got a lot of attention in the sports world.
> 
> ...


I suppose they do say, "No such thing as bad press"


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Liddellianenko said:


> All I've ever seen you post is how you wanted Hendo to KO jones and how you disliked his personality. Yeah maybe you respect his fighting abilities but so does everyone else who irrationally hates him.
> 
> And plenty of others are defending bones. John4345 or whatever his name is, limba, and anyone who isn't just reacting blindly to the scapegoating job done by dana.
> 
> Bones isn't even one of my favorite fighters, but I am defending him because the hatred against him from the very beginning strikes me as complete bias and hypocrisy.


I don't know his personality so I couldn't really say anything on that. Yeah I wanted Hendo to knock him out, but you've got a lifetime legend in MMA stepping in, after stopping Fedor and a fight of the year against Shogun, against a young dominant champion whom he is given no chance against. That doesn't stop me from being a Jones fan. Sht like this does.

And I don't know the job Dana's done because I don't read much of the stuff. What I know is:-

- Henderson got injured and pulled out.
- Jones was offered Sonnen, who's moving up a weight and hasn't trained...but refused to take the fight out of fear that he might lose (he said himself that the styles are too different etc).
- Machida and Shogun refused to fight Jones, because in that case they would have been thrown down to the bottom of the pile had they lost.

Jones killed 151, and Jones pussied out of the easy Sonnen fight.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Killz said:


> Oh I agree the hate would have been there regardless.
> 
> Got to be honest though, I dont have the time or the energy to scroll through 20000+ pages of Bones hate to find posters who were once fans. :thumb02:


If there were so many you'd only have to scroll 5 to find one no? But there aren't. Making up facts is convenient when no one asks for proof.



Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Jeff Hougland can't pay his daughter's school clothes with an apology. According to Dana Jones knew they would cancel the card if he didn't step up. Not sure who to believe.


He could have paid it from the $20000 he made 3 months ago, or the $20000 he'll make in another month or two. If he's living paycheck to paycheck with $20000 in the bank that's his fault. 

And Dana's for cancelling the event and putting on a crap card to begin with.



marcthegame said:


> Liddle, what difference does it make with Jones fighting someone in 8 days vs the 22nd? He is ready for a fight, he had a training camp etc. If he is willing to fight Chael or whoever on the 22nd? Why can't he do it on the first?
> 
> A fight is a fight, but people are looking pass what he said about strategy etc. **** that shit, had Jon Jones not been a greg jackson fighter he would have fought any man on the 1st.


Do you really think there's no difference between 3 days of training and 20? Especially when you can't go hard those 3 days because you don't want to be bruised in the cage?

It's not a greg jackson thing, it's madness to fight one of the best takedown artists in MMA without having given your body those reactions REPEATEDLY for the last few months. He wouldn't have done so with Hendo's token mma wrestling which he never uses.

Also how do you guys know Chael was out of shape? Isn't it possible that Chael, being so close to Dan, knew of the injury sooner and started calling Jones out because of it, all the while training for him and gaining his edge?


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> It's Dana's fault for putting together such a shit card with only one fight. Nice scapegoating job too.
> 
> Chael and Henderson are completely different fighters. One just dives for takedowns all night, the other likes to stand and bang. The "wrestler" tag is oversimplifying.
> 
> ...


Sums up everything how i feel.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> He could have paid it from the $20000 he made 3 months ago, or the $20000 he'll make in another month or two. If he's living paycheck to paycheck with $20000 in the bank that's his fault.


Dude your being extremely harsh there and possibly a bit naive on what it costs to get prepared as a fighter these days. 
First theres tax, then a lot of people need to be paid, travel expense and so on to get your fight camp ready. Buy 3 return flights just for the guys in your corner and depending where your leaving from that could be $1000 alone, never mind their % of your purse. AFTER that then you spend the rest on your family to feed them and buy school books and so on. 
I dont get your thinking on that at all. You have to start as a fighter somewhere. Living on $40,000 a year with a family is a big struggle in some states like NY you would be on the poverty line with that


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

You really can't point the finger at one person or organisation here and say "It's his/their fault!"

The reason for UFC 151 getting cancelled has to be split, Jones didn't accept ANY of the fights offered to him on short notice, and the UFC relied too heavily on Jones as a headliner so the rest of the card was basically not PPV worthy in itself.

The compilation of these factors resulted in the mess we're currently in.

While this whole thing made me slightly angry at Jones, I can't solely place the blame and my anger with him. Dana/Zuffa deserves some to :/

Sad day all in all


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## VikingKing (Dec 3, 2011)

Budhisten said:


> You really can't point the finger at one person or organisation here and say "It's his/their fault!"
> 
> The reason for UFC 151 getting cancelled has to be split, Jones didn't accept ANY of the fights offered to him on short notice, and the UFC relied too heavily on Jones as a headliner so the rest of the card was basically not PPV worthy in itself.
> 
> ...


Completely agree with you.Thats how i feel about it as well, hope Jones and UFC have learned a big lesson after this


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## AJClark (Sep 19, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> He could have paid it from the $20000 he made 3 months ago, or the $20000 he'll make in another month or two. If he's living paycheck to paycheck with $20000 in the bank that's his fault.


Lauzon said that by the time he's paid all his trainers and made it to the octagon he's spent around 20k.


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## xbrokenshieldx (Mar 5, 2007)

Jones is a great athlete, no doubt about that. But Jones is no fighter. Fighters fight when they are asked to fight. I understand his decision logistically, but I lost respect for him.

Chael Sonnen is a fighter. I never really liked Anderson Silva much, but apparently he offered to step up to try to save the card by fighting another LHW, even though he hasn't trained at all since his fight with Chael. Anderson is a fighter. 

"I think I’m a good company guy. The UFC asks me to do anything and I always do it, and I never tell them no for anything. I’ve had to do more marketing than any other fighter because I say no to absolutely nothing. I don’t think most champs are like that" - Jon Jones

Maybe Rashad was right when he said Jones was a phony.


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## SooprmanX (Feb 24, 2008)

AJClark said:


> Lauzon said that by the time he's paid all his trainers and made it to the octagon he's spent around 20k.


Don't try to use logic with that Lidell guy. Logic is a foreign thing to him.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

Liddellianenko said:


> It's Dana's fault for putting together such a shit card with only one fight. Nice scapegoating job too.
> 
> Chael and Henderson are completely different fighters. One just dives for takedowns all night, the other likes to stand and bang. The "wrestler" tag is oversimplifying.
> 
> ...


I would have to agree with all of this.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

AJClark said:


> Lauzon said that by the time he's paid all his trainers and made it to the octagon he's spent around 20k.


So you're saying most of these guys are fighting for free or at a loss?

Good thing the event got cancelled then, otherwise they'd be even deeper in the hole!

Use your head. Obviously they have to either be making more under the table in cash or the trainer figures aren't that high for undercard level fighters. No one fights for free


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> So you're saying most of these guys are fighting for free or at a loss?
> 
> Good thing the event got cancelled then, otherwise they'd be even deeper in the hole!
> 
> Use your head. Obviously they have to either be making more under the table in cash or the trainer figures aren't that high for undercard level fighters. No one fights for free


You've got to factor in money from sponsors and other undisclosed incomes on top of the basic fighter salary.


At the very most they wouldnt get anything more than the stated fight salary because the event was cancelled.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> So you're saying most of these guys are fighting for free or at a loss?
> 
> Good thing the event got cancelled then, otherwise they'd be even deeper in the hole!
> 
> Use your head. Obviously they have to either be making more under the table in cash or the trainer figures aren't that high for undercard level fighters. No one fights for free


Man you are just guessing on the costs and what fighters earn. I have sponsored fighters in strikeforce, and it cost me $500 to get on a guys shorts for a televised event. He had maybe 3 more sponsors on his shorts, and a few more on his banner and t-shirt. Probably getting a max of 10g's sponsorship for a guy who had a decent record and was maybe two fights from a title shot. 
Why don't you write out a list of typical costs of a fighter, and their typical income and see what they are making and spending. Then you will see the reality of what it costs and will perhaps cease with this nonsense above....
Why do you think knockout of the night etc, is so talked about and on so many guys minds? 

The guys that are fighting at the lower levels trying to work their way up are dreaming of those big paychecks and becoming a star. They make sacrifices to try and get there. Just like starting a new business, you mightnt get paid for a long time but you dream of making it big, and are willing to make sacrifices to get there. You are talking like its no big deal at all to lose 20K and in that position. It could very well stop some guys from being a professional fighter and make them go back to work in order to pay their bills. Just like if a new business suddenly lost 20K it could make the owner have to scrap it and go back to a 9 to 5 just to pay his rent. 

I would be happy to hear an argument against what I have above, but lets stop guessing and have a little dose of reality


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## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

Killz said:


> I suppose they do say, "No such thing as bad press"


Im pretty sure this qualifies as "bad" press. lol


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

I can kinda see Jones' point with his coaches not being there, but still he's a terrible match up for Chael, who wouldn't have had any time to train for Jones and his style unless they got him in there when Hendo first got hurt and planned this whole thing.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

TheLyotoLegion said:


> *unless they got him in there when Hendo first got hurt and planned this whole thing*.


I wouldn't doubt that for one second. 

3 weeks since the injury
Dan and chael love each other like brothers (no, really, not like Jones and Rashad)

:confused02:


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

locnott said:


> Im pretty sure this qualifies as "bad" press. lol


But it isn.t really is it if you think about it?

Yeah Jones is getting called all the names under the sun for this but come next PPV you can stonewall guarantee that the PPV buys will be massive and it'll be because all the new haters will be tuning in to hopefully see bones get his ass kicked. Thus, making him and the UFC more money.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

Killz said:


> But it isn.t really is it if you think about it?
> 
> Yeah Jones is getting called all the names under the sun for this but come next PPV you can stonewall guarantee that the PPV buys will be massive and it'll be because all the new haters will be tuning in to hopefully see bones get his ass kicked. Thus, making him and the UFC more money.


Would you be willing to wager a tenner on that to add a little spice for when the numbers come out?

Lets say anything over 700,000 buys you win...


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## Harness (Oct 3, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Of course Chael took the fight. ANYONE would. It's FOR THE BELT. With NO WORK WHATSOEVER. It's not about balls,* he has everything to gain and nothing to lose.* #


How about losing his 3rd title shot and becoming the new Faber/Florian?


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

DonRifle said:


> Man you are just guessing on the costs and what fighters earn. I have sponsored fighters in strikeforce, and it cost me $500 to get on a guys shorts for a televised event. He had maybe 3 more sponsors on his shorts, and a few more on his banner and t-shirt. Probably getting a max of 10g's sponsorship for a guy who had a decent record and was maybe two fights from a title shot.
> Why don't you write out a list of typical costs of a fighter, and their typical income and see what they are making and spending. Then you will see the reality of what it costs and will perhaps cease with this nonsense above....
> Why do you think knockout of the night etc, is so talked about and on so many guys minds?
> 
> ...


They're not losing money, they're getting postponed by a month or so, getting bumped to the next available card.

And the argument works either way, if they're making that much amount from an event (through sponsorships, undisclosed cash salaries etc.), then they shouldn't "not have money for daughter's uniform" just by getting postponed for a month. They need to stash some of that money away.

And if they are really making very little even after their sponsorships and bonuses etc., then a cancelled event makes little difference in their financial situation as in that scenario it's the day jobs paying their bills and the fights are only "an opportunity" to become a star and get paid big, an opportunity that's still there a month later.

Either way, a postponed fight shouldn't put them on the streets. And even if it does, Dana is to blame for a) paying them jack and b) putting a crap card together that relied on one guy.



Harness said:


> How about losing his 3rd title shot and becoming the new Faber/Florian?


An unearned title shot without having a single fight in that division? Not really a big issue, it's just a random stat if he loses.

If I offered you a coin flip, with A MILLION DOLLARS if you win, FOR FREE without putting anything up as a bet, would you refuse it? Would you say, naaah I don't wanna risk losing that coin flip that I bet nothing for, keep your million bucks?


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

I agree with the crap card seems to be a lot of that these days. And maybe if DW really really wanted to he could have done something to save the event. But maybe he is making a statement here also, of not to f*** with the UFC on things like this. Kind of a powerplay for the organisations future. 
Overall he has brought so much hate upon himself not taking this fight, whether it has a major or minor effect on the finances of his peers its still gona piss them off big time and we can see that from the lauzon statement and other tweets.


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## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

Killz said:


> But it isn.t really is it if you think about it?
> 
> Yeah Jones is getting called all the names under the sun for this but come next PPV you can stonewall guarantee that the PPV buys will be massive and it'll be because all the new haters will be tuning in to hopefully see bones get his ass kicked. Thus, making him and the UFC more money.


I don't know if thats the case, In reality there are not many guys out there who have much of a shot at kicking his ass, the bigger down side I see is that he is on Dana's shit list. Dana controls the purse strings and Im pretty sure this is going to be more bad than good for JJ, I don't know all the details of how contracts are worked out, sponsorship money and other things but if dana decides to only let him fight once a year, put him against shit fighters that nobody wants to see, be a hard ass on all future negotiations. If he ever loses the belt you know dana will make him wait years for another shot. I guess time will tell. If Jon finds a way to put big money in dana's pocket he will be back in good graces quick enough, just like Tito. IMO.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

DonRifle said:


> I agree with the crap card seems to be a lot of that these days. And maybe if DW really really wanted to he could have done something to save the event. But maybe he is making a statement here also, of not to f*** with the UFC on things like this. Kind of a powerplay for the organisations future.
> Overall he has brought so much hate upon himself not taking this fight, whether it has a major or minor effect on the finances of his peers its still gona piss them off big time and we can see that from the lauzon statement and other tweets.


I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. 

Yeah a big part of this is a UFC powerplay i.e. how dare a star go his own way.

And yes, major or minor financial issues, the fighters and fans are going to hate Bones and make him the scapegoat here because of the great blame job by Dana.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

locnott said:


> If Jon finds a way to put big money in dana's pocket he will be back in good graces quick enough, just like Tito. IMO.


This is possible, but he would need to have a very good PR company behind him to come up with something genius to get him back in the good graces. That or he is involved in a hendo/shogun type war where he comes back from adversity or shows he is at least a tough warrior when he is in the cage. 
Tito had his issues, but he was always a good PR man PRE fights, and although a lot of people hate him for talking about his injuries, he had some serious health issues going into most of his last half dozen fights at least - I'd say that is one of the reasons Dana let him back in and probably has a grudging respect for the guy. He never let him down on a card


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## The Best Around (Oct 18, 2011)

Dana will always hold a grudge, but he knows he has no leverage or reason to be out to get Jones. He is one of their biggest draws and will be for some time. Considering PPV buys are down from a few years ago and it will continue (with all the free cards and more streaming). All will be fine for Jones.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

The Best Around said:


> Dana will always hold a grudge, but he knows he has no leverage or reason to be out to get Jones. He is one of their biggest draws and will be for some time. Considering PPV buys are down from a few years ago and it will continue (with all the free cards and more streaming). All will be fine for Jones.


Agreed, Dana tried to hold a grudge against Anderson for his Leites and Maia fights, but two KOs and some major $$ cards, he's back to calling him the best fighter in the world.

At the end of the day, money heals all Dana wounds. He'll hold the grudge passively but he's marketed Bones too much to turn this into a profitless war.


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## HorsepoweR (Jun 1, 2007)

Bones was in fight shape, Sonnen is not, Jones should have taken the easy payday and smashed Sonnen's face into the mat, especially with all the shit talking they are doing with each other on twitter. But Bones is so scared to lose.. Stop being a princess Bones. Man up and take the fight because well, you are a fighter.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

I wonder if he was wearing a "Bones Knows" shirt when asking Greg Jackson what to do.


Sent from my iPhone using VerticalSports


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

HitOrGetHit said:


> I wonder if he was wearing a "Bones Knows" shirt when asking Greg Jackson what to do.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using VerticalSports


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## tap nap or snap (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm a bones fan who is disappointed, he really messed up on this. my number one fighter is anderson, so it goes without sayign I have a dislike for sonnen. I put all that out to say sonnen is right on this. bones is acting bitch-made about it. and he has lost a lot of my admiration, maybe even lost me as a fan all together


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

HorsepoweR said:


> Bones was in fight shape, Sonnen is not, Jones should have taken the easy payday and smashed Sonnen's face into the mat, especially with all the shit talking they are doing with each other on twitter. But Bones is so scared to lose.. Stop being a princess Bones. Man up and take the fight because well, you are a fighter.


Exactly. I really don't get it. After Hendos knee exploded and he dropped out, if somebody had asked me if I thought Bones would accept a fight with Sonnen instead, I would have thought he would have grabbed it. A chance to squash the fecker who's been slandering him. A relatively easy fight and a fat pay check.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

I don't like Jones. I think declining Sonnen was stupid. But I can't hate him for doing what he thinks is best.

But I can hate him for not being a true MMA fighter and more of a modern business fighter. I have gotten into this sport because of guys like Big Nog, Bj Penn, Chuck, Wandy, Shogun, Randy. Modern times Anderson, Joe Lauzon brings it vs. anyone, JDS, Frankie.

Just a handful of years ago guys fought elite competition twice in 1 night. 

Looks like Jones is one of the first to care more about the money and fame more than the essence of fighting. Guys like Randy, Penn, Chuck, Big Nog were never afraid to lose a fight. It isn't about their record at the end of the day. It is about fighting and taking on anyone and doing what you love.

Jon Jones isn't like any of those fighters I mentioned. He is damn good. But the spirit of fighting isn't in him. Money, Fame, and having a belt so more people notice him are his main concerns.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Wow I didn't realize how many of our posters train at team quest with Henderson and Sonnen!

Can someone get me Dan's autograph?

How do we know chael is so far out of fight shape? He was helping Dan train and who knows how long or how hard he's been helping Dan. I wonder how long dans been hiding the injury, at least two weeks which is nothing but what if he's been sitting on this for a month. I'm sure it would still be all Jones fault so all the whiners have something to bitch about.

To be clear I think Jones should have took the fight but I'm not angry or going to be childish about it. So many MMA fans have no perspective and act so entitled.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Exactly. People need to get a clue and at least wonder why Chael suddenly and randomly started calling out Bones just a month ago out of nowhere.

Yeah he was totally unprepared and out of shape


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Exactly. People need to get a clue and at least wonder why Chael suddenly and randomly started calling out Bones just a month ago out of nowhere.
> 
> Yeah he was totally unprepared and out of shape :sarcastic06:


We are not all assuming Chael was out of shape. Hell, he could be in great shape. But he hasn't had a training camp preparing for Bones same way Bones hasn't been preparing for him. As prepared as Sonnen might be, he cant possibly be in better fight shape then Jones.

I just cant believe Sonnen could possibly win the fight, even with a full training camp let alone without. Which kind of implies Jones turned him down on principle... which more annoying then anything else. It would have been awesome seeing Sonnen lose again.


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## Harness (Oct 3, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> If I offered you a coin flip, with A MILLION DOLLARS if you win, FOR FREE without putting anything up as a bet, would you refuse it? Would you say, naaah I don't wanna risk losing that coin flip that I bet nothing for, keep your million bucks?


Bit different as anyone would do the coin flip but in Chaels case, it's his career. Who wants 3 unsuccessful title fights on their record? Kinda hard to promote a guy like that.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Soojooko said:


> We are not all assuming Chael was out of shape. Hell, he could be in great shape. But he hasn't had a training camp preparing for Bones same way Bones hasn't been preparing for him. As prepared as Sonnen might be, he cant possibly be in better fight shape then Jones.
> 
> I just cant believe Sonnen could possibly win the fight, even with a full training camp let alone without. Which kind of implies Jones turned him down on principle... which more annoying then anything else. It would have been awesome seeing Sonnen lose again.


I was implying Sonnen knew of the injury sooner, being buddies with Dan, and WAS training specifically for Jones right before he started calling him out on twitter, whereas Jones had no such warning or specific training.



Harness said:


> Bit different as anyone would do the coin flip but in Chaels case, it's his career. Who wants 3 unsuccessful title fights on their record? Kinda hard to promote a guy like that.


Chael himself stated he wasn't interested in fighting any more if it wasn't for the title and was considering retirement after the Anderson loss. i.e. He no longer cared about his record, just the belt.

It's not like he has such a stellar record anyway with double digit losses. I really doubt a loss to Bones, who has destroyed legends, would hurt his record any more, especially when fighting as a MW "on short notice".


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> I was implying Sonnen knew of the injury sooner, being buddies with Dan, and WAS training specifically for Jones right before he started calling him out on twitter, whereas Jones had no such warning or specific training.


Ok. So even under these circumstances ( assuming you are right ) do you actually give Sonnen a chance?

Forgetting our differences for a moment and Danas OTT reaction, surely you must be a little disappointed that Bones didn't accept?


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> Exactly. People need to get a clue and at least wonder why Chael suddenly and randomly started calling out Bones just a month ago out of nowhere.
> 
> Yeah he was totally unprepared and out of shape


What is the difference?

Who cares if he was in decent shape? He wasn't in real fight shape. Guys have such strict training camps where they try to peek at fight night. I don't care if Sonnen was in "shape" he was not ready for a fight. Not like elite UFC fighters normally are. Jones WAS. Jones is a whole weight class more....actually the biggest guy in the next weight class. 

And like Chael said. If he took the fight Chael would have had like 3 days to do anything more, not 8. Chael would be doing more press and travel than actual training for the fight. 

So what you are saying is because Chale could have been in OK shape that Jones shoudln't take the fight? Is he that scared?

Times like these is when I miss old MMA. It wasn't about protecting your nike deals. It was actually about you know....fighting. And the fans.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Soojooko said:


> Ok. So even under these circumstances ( assuming you are right ) do you actually give Sonnen a chance?
> 
> Forgetting our differences for a moment and Danas OTT reaction, surely you must be a little disappointed that Bones didn't accept?


I would. Not a big one, but that's his ONLY chance. Catching an unprepared Jones without the ingrained reflexes from the last few months to defend a blazing double leg. While Sonnen has been training all month, specifically on how to counter Jones and his reach. 

I am disappointed I didn't get to see Dan vs Bones. I am not the least bit disappointed about not seeing Bones vs Chael. This guy needs to stop getting rewarded for his cheap tactics and tricks.



jonnyg4508 said:


> What is the difference?
> 
> Who cares if he was in decent shape? He wasn't in real fight shape. Guys have such strict training camps where they try to peek at fight night. I don't care if Sonnen was in "shape" he was not ready for a fight. Not like elite UFC fighters normally are. Jones WAS. Jones is a whole weight class more....actually the biggest guy in the next weight class.
> 
> ...


Read above. I'm implying a conspiracy of sorts, Chael knowing about the injury beforehand and having almost a full Bones specific training camp. Hence the sudden twitter callouts.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> I would. Not a big one, but that's his ONLY chance. Catching an unprepared Jones without the ingrained reflexes from the last few months to defend a blazing double leg. While Sonnen has been training all month, specifically on how to counter Jones and his reach.
> 
> I am disappointed I didn't get to see Dan vs Bones. I am not the least bit disappointed about not seeing Bones vs Chael. This guy needs to stop getting rewarded for his cheap tactics and tricks.


See, I don't consider it a reward. We all know Chael is only interested in titles. To fight Bones and lose to him, which im convinced would happen, would essentially retire Chael. He would have nothing left to fight for.

I'm also convinced that Jones reach makes a double leg virtually impossible for somebody like Chael. If somebody as explosive as Rashad cant get past Bones offence then Sonnen wont either. Even against a Jones who is ready for Henderson.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Soojooko said:


> See, I don't consider it a reward. We all know Chael is only interested in titles. To fight Bones and lose to him, which im convinced would happen, would essentially retire Chael. He would have nothing left to fight for.
> 
> I'm also convinced that Jones reach makes a double leg virtually impossible for somebody like Chael. If somebody as explosive as Rashad cant get past Bones offence then Sonnen wont either. Even against a Jones who is ready for Henderson.


Bones had trained for Rashad though, I feel you're underestimating what a difference that can make.

When I was training I remember reactions and muscles being almost completely on autopilot during sparring. Your body just does what you've been training it for, the more recent the stronger the instinct.

Jones probably would've won, but to fight an enemy on a battleground of his choosing is definitely rewarding him and a foolish risk. IMO Chael was laying a trap, and taunting Bones into it. As the great Sun Tzu once said about just this, "That's whack dawg" (totally didn't make that up).


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Bones had trained for Rashad though, I feel you're underestimating what a difference that can make.
> 
> When I was training I remember reactions and muscles being almost completely on autopilot during sparring. Your body just does what you've been training it for, the more recent the stronger the instinct.
> 
> Jones probably would've won, but to fight an enemy on a battleground of his choosing is definitely rewarding him and a foolish risk. As the great Sun Tzu once said about just this, "That's whack dawg" (totally didn't make that up).


I wouldn't disagree, assuming Sonnen has indeed been training to fight Bones. But I'm not sure he's been preparing as extensively as you think. It's a nice theory: That they knew Dan would be out weeks ago and held back that info while Chael prepared himself. But I cant believe it.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Soojooko said:


> I wouldn't disagree, assuming Sonnen has indeed been training to fight Bones. But I'm not sure he's been preparing as extensively as you think. It's a nice theory: That they knew Dan would be out weeks ago and held back that info while Chael prepared himself. But I cant believe it.


You don't find the sudden and concentrated twitter taunts the least bit suspicious then? Granted Chael has gone after random people before, but never to this degree, unless he was setting up a fight. Like soon.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> You don't find the sudden and concentrated twitter taunts the least bit suspicious then? Granted Chael has gone after random people before, but never to this degree, unless he was setting up a fight. Like soon.


It is feasible, I'll give you that.

I just don't believe it personally. Sonnen has said time and time again, that if are not calling out the champ, then you should get fired. Him targeting Jones is exactly what I would expect. Have you considered that he thought Hendo would win, and that trashing Jones would secure a fight against him sooner rather then later? Hendo would have probably retired and Sonnen is suddenly in a match with Jones for the vacant belt. Also a feasible theory, no?


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## BOMDC (Feb 13, 2011)

Rampant and pointless speculation. Can't we all just focus on how big a douche Jones is?


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Soojooko said:


> It is feasible, I'll give you that.
> 
> I just don't believe it personally. Sonnen has said time and time again, that if are not calling out the champ, then you should get fired. Him targeting Jones is exactly what I would expect. Have you considered that he thought Hendo would win, and that trashing Jones would secure a fight against him sooner rather then later? Hendo would have probably retired and Sonnen is suddenly in a match with Jones for the vacant belt. Also a feasible theory, no?


Also feasible, except for a couple of things. Firstly, betting on Dan retiring right after finally winning the UFC belt is a longshot. That's when the big money really starts to pour in.

Secondly, why did Dana jump all other contenders and go straight to Sonnen, a MW, for a replacement fight? And THE ONLY replacement fight, which you either take or you are the card killing villain? Did Dan bring it up? Was it set up a bit sooner?

Lots of questions. Your theory is feasible too, or the plain old this was all mishaps and coincidences. I smell a rat though personally. I can understand if everyone doesn't, just presenting my view for discussions sake.


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

He makes it seem as if Chael was in fighting shape and had a gameplan set up already. Nope. He was taking a fight on 8 days notice in a weight class above his own. Those 8 days would have been dedicated to cutting weight and doing media. And unlike Jones, Chael didn't have a long camp already. But whatever. Jones was clearly the only one being disadvantaged by this.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Just presenting my view for discussions sake.


Which is all we can do on an interweb forum.

For the record, I completely believed Hendo would retire if he won the belt. Cement his legacy and go out at the very top. I'm 100% sure he has no money issues. He's not a stupid man and has no doubt invested wisely.

I don't like Hendo, but I would have had immeasurable respect for him if he pulled it off.


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## Ming Fu (May 10, 2010)

I think hitler said it best.....


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

The good ol' Hitler reaction video. Gonna look it up now.

"He could punch Chaels face from the other side of the octagon" :laugh:


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## Wookie (Jul 20, 2008)

Ming Fu said:


> I think hitler said it best.....


That was freaking hilarious! I needed a good laugh, whoever made that was genius!


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Ming Fu said:


> I think hitler said it best.....


Fun fact:

When the subtitles say that Jones is a traitor and coward, Hitler says "[they] are nothing but dirty cowards. Cowards, traitors, losers! [...] The tumor of the German people, without honor." 

:laugh:


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## Harness (Oct 3, 2009)

Ming Fu said:


> I think hitler said it best.....


Love the Machida bit!


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

I agree with Liddellianenko. Now I've kept silent about this whole situation because it has me feeling a bit conflicted. On one hand I can understand the frustration on everyone's part, but on the other hand I think it's being blown out of proportion.

Yes JBJ could have been the hero and taken the risk, but he would have more to lose for not being prepared, I can understand his reluctance. Now I am not a fan of JBJ, I've actually pulled for Shogun, Rampage, Rashad and Machida against him, but I do admire his fighting style. I think even JBJ haters will tune in to watch his fights because he's one of the most exciting fighters on the roster. 

Personally I think this is more about JBJ haters (and some that are on the fence) having another excuse to hate him. The reality here is that this is a sport and not actual combat. 

Anyone here that knows me, knows that I always root for the warrior; the ones that leave it all on the line. JBJ obviously isn't one, he's a competitor but not a true fighter. That's not to knock him that's just my opinion. But that doesn't take anything away from his accomplishments, nor his success. Love or hate him, in the ring you have to respect him because he will bring the pain.

I hate Greg Jackson, and always have. But I cannot hate him this time because his advice was sound. Most MMA fans are fairweather fans anyway, this sport is full of people jumping off of bandwagons. 

Do I believe JBJ would have beaten an out of shape Chael? Of course he would, but what would that gain him? Nothing. He has everything to lose in this match up even if he won. And what about Machida cancelling? Is it ok if he does it, but not ok if JBJ does the same? That's haterdom 101.

The only thing that this has done is made appreciate Chael more rather than change any of my views towards JBJ. JBJ like I said is a competitor, Chael is a fighter with brass balls. And although Chael has really nothing to lose, you have to give him props for being willing to take this fight and potentially getting his face knocked in. He played his hand well. He's still a cheater though.

TL;DR JBJ did what he needed to do to protect his legacy, and Chael is boss.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> It's Dana's fault for putting together such a shit card with only one fight. Nice scapegoating job too.
> 
> Chael and Henderson are completely different fighters. One just dives for takedowns all night, the other likes to stand and bang. The "wrestler" tag is oversimplifying.
> 
> ...


^^ this^^, chaels got nothing to lose and Dana's passing the blame for canceling the whole card because he might have to take a loss on this card.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Jon Jones is not the one taking the fight on short notice. The guy just went through a 3 month training camp and is PREPARED for a fight. All the skills he has he can use against Chael or Henderson. Chael Sonnen is the one that is stepping up on short notice. He is the one that wasnt training to be in fight shape. He is the one who wasnt focusing on an opponent. IF ANYTHING he was thinking about his bout with Forrest that is on DECEMBER 29TH. And it doesnt take 8 days to come up with a game plan. ESPECIALLY against Chael Sonnen who is a 1 trick pony.

Dont be fools people and let Jones "I wasnt prepared to fight on 8 days notice" trick you. Jon Jones knew he had a fight on September 1st and he did everything possible to be ready for that date. If Jones believes he was at a disadvantage then Chael Sonnen was at a 10x worse disadvantage. 

This is nothing more then a coward making excuses for a cowardly decision. 


And he knew the ramification if he pulled out of fighting at UFC 151 because of an opponent swap. In a FIGHT sport the headliner pulling out 8 days before can VERY WELL cancel a card. Boxing has had to deal with that since it was created. The UFC was able to always find a replacement opponent in time but they never had to deal with the Champion finding an excuse to back out of the fight because his opponent got injured. That is beyond cowardly.





Liddellianenko said:


> Exactly. People need to get a clue and at least wonder why Chael suddenly and randomly started calling out Bones just a month ago out of nowhere.
> 
> Yeah he was totally unprepared and out of shape



You realize that Chael Sonnen has ALWAYS said that if you are not calling out the champion then Dana should give you the pink slip right there. And Henderson wouldnt have waited to the last minute to back out if he knew he wont be able to fight. And for "argument" sake the longest Chael could have known that Henderson will pull out is 3 weeks ago when the injury happened. And that is assuming that Chael knew how serious it was the moment it happened. So 3 weeks training for Jones would still not be even close to matching a 90 day training camp. Or even have time to get in "Fight" shape.

So this "Conspiracy" theory holds no water.


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## tight (Aug 26, 2007)

Here's what Dana should've done 

Make it a catchweight, like 215 or 220 so Jones doesn't have to cut weight as much and can do his homework like the schoolboy he's acting like

Because it's a catchweight, it's not a title fight - so even if he loses he is still 'champ'

And then make a clause, if he loses he gets an immediate rematch

But really, whatever. Jon basically said even though him and Chael had the exact same amount of time to prepare for each other thus making it fair, even though Jon had a full training camp, he still didn't wanna risk fighting him.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

I can't believe all this. I've come to expect more from this board as fans. The dude doesn't want to fight one of the most deadly fighters in his weight class on 8 days notice and everyone freaks out and starts flaming about it. This is ridiculous. Not just this board either but it seems the majority of mma fans as a whole. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using VerticalSports.Com App


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Does not matter Chael, Vitor, Machida, whatever...Jones declined a fight with another man in his weight class being fit for the match. A true cage warrior, not mention a Champion, does not do that.
My disapointment is: I didn't know that was possible. My ignorance led me to believe he, as an UFC employee, had the obligation (since we found out we can't count on his will to fight, only making money and fame...) to fight anyone that was presented to him. It can then become a trend, accepted by the organisation to the extend of cancelling a whole event. Hard to accept...

Screw Jones excuses. They are real but for my frustration, they serve to a burocratic, profitable and coward purpose not to a simple fight challenge most MMA fans expect from their idols.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

TraMaI said:


> I can't believe all this. I've come to expect more from this board as fans. The dude doesn't want to fight one of the most deadly fighters in his weight class on 8 days notice and everyone freaks out and starts flaming about it. This is ridiculous. Not just this board either but it seems the majority of mma fans as a whole.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using VerticalSports.Com App


Chael Sonnen one of the most deadly fighters in 205??

You joking right?


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

lol

dana has pulled the perfect spin job

nobody realizes that chael was the only guy willing to step up on the first, but just like the rest of lhw was unwilling to fight him with just 20+ days prep time. LHW were shook, Chael was shook, Only vitor stepped up. Period. whats the dif between 8 days and twenty cheal? ie. Dana "the ship had sailed"

chael has a boating trip that weekend? lol

jones need not apologize, dana cancelled the card before guys could step up. jones doesn't want to take fights on a weeks notice? name me a current guy who would? Shogun, Dan, Gsp, JDS. 

best part is suddenly sonnen is just a out of shape mw. lol lets just forget all his wins and fights. in their rush to claim its such an easy fight for jones they make chael look like some sacrificial lamb that comes in to lose- a 205 bob sapp if you will.

#running scared of sept. 22 @machida,shogun,glover,sonnen,rampage,rashad,lilnog,forrest,davis,gustaffson,tehuna,jimmo, hell include diaz and penn while your at it if you think jones is scared of sonnen but not finishers like shogun and machida. #justscrap

and lol at jones having to save cards, didn't he do that twice last year for them? oh Dana you idiot you.....


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thelegend said:


> lol
> 
> dana has pulled the perfect spin job
> 
> ...


Lmao.... where did you get that idea??

Dana never offered Chael Jon jones on the 22nd. With 3 weeks more prep time he had more time to find an actual 205er that has been winning fights to take the fight. He wasnt forced to give the fight to a 185er who hasnt even fought at LHW in a very very long time.

Get off this ridiculous delusion and use your brain.

Dana has already said he expects Chael to get a few wins before getting a title shot. Only reason that changed was because Danas hand was forced. Then with Jon Jones declining it he now had more time to make a fight that makes sense.

And the only person 3 weeks more training would have helped is Chael Sonnen. He was the one stepping in on short notice. To say Chael Sonnen was unwilling to take the fight on the 22nd is funny. Do you even have 1 shred of evidence to support that statement lmao?


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> I can't believe all this. I've come to expect more from this board as fans. The dude doesn't want to fight one of the most deadly fighters in his weight class on 8 days notice and everyone freaks out and starts flaming about it. This is ridiculous. Not just this board either but it seems the majority of mma fans as a whole.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using VerticalSports.Com App


you expect too much of idiots. they always go full derper.

for a while the misguided considered mma fans the most knowledgeable fans in sports, but with reactions like the anger directed at jones and not dana/ufc you wonder why.

yes jones is ducking sonnen and not guys like shogun lol

its obvious these are the same people who thought he was ducking rashad as well.


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> Lmao.... where did you get that idea??
> 
> Dana never offered Chael Jon jones on the 22nd. With 3 weeks more prep time he had more time to find an actual 205er that has been winning fights to take the fight. He wasnt forced to give the fight to a 185er who hasnt even fought at LHW in a very very long time.
> 
> ...


lmao

vitor is a mw last i checked, when was his last fight at 205?

yes three weeks helps chael sonnen but he makes no mention of wanting that fight on the 22nd lol.

chael stepped in because he had nothing to lose and expected a faster track to a title than brock lesnar and anderson silva combined.

with three weeks no 205'er stepped up. NONE

but...but...jones is a coward. he only stepped up to fight shogun on short notice to save that card and went and fought machida to save another just last year.

full derper


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thelegend said:


> lmao
> 
> vitor is a mw last i checked, when was his last fight at 205?
> 
> ...


But Vitor Belfort is on a winning streak atleast. Chael Sonnen has just lost to Anderson. Giving Chael the fight on the 22nd makes little to no sense if he can find someone who makes more sense.

The reason he doesnt mention it is because he wasnt offered the fight on the 22nd. 
Dana White has been pretty vocal about who he offered the fight and who he didnt. 
And lets not forget the obvious where Chael Sonnen has absolutely no reason to take the fight on the 1st but not on the 22nd when the 22nd actually helps him out more.

You dont have one shred of evidence to support your theory. And the whole "Logic" thing is working against you 2.


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> But Vitor Belfort is on a winning streak atleast. Chael Sonnen has just lost to Anderson.
> 
> The reason he doesnt mention it is because he wasnt offered the fight on the 22nd.
> Dana White has been pretty vocal about who he offered the fight and who he didnt.
> ...


what logic? your only point is that chael only wanted to fight on the 1. ignore the rest of the post but dont quote me just to argue whether my opinion which is speculation is logical. chael always has something to say, jones said he would fight chael on the 22, chael kept quiet. i take it to be him not wanting that fight.

belfort's a mw, no lhw stepped up to fight the champ but its only jones whose scarred of sonnen. you want to argue logic how about you explain how jones is a coward and not the whole 205 div.

how dana can only offer an unranked fighter for the title

did dana call chael first for that fight? cant be right? 

Dana cancelled the card because it was terrible but this has happened before and card was not cancelled see: ufc 132-133

best part though is nobody that has a title or is close to one is gonna disagree with jones, because they all know there's no way they actually take a change in opponent for dana on less than ten days.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thelegend said:


> what logic? *your only point is that chael only wanted to fight on the 1.* ignore the rest of the post but dont quote me just to argue whether my opinion which is speculation is logical. chael always has something to say, jones said he would fight chael on the 22, chael kept quiet. i take it to be him not wanting that fight.
> 
> belfort's a mw, no lhw stepped up to fight the champ but its only jones whose scarred of sonnen. you want to argue logic how about you explain how jones is a coward and not the whole 205 div.
> 
> ...


What the hell are you talking about. You are the one claiming Chael only wanted to fight on the 1st. Im the one telling you that Chael was NEVER offered to fight on the 22nd. If that was an option Chael would jump on it so quick it would make your head spin. If Dana White WANTED Chael to fight on the 22nd he would have offered the fight to Chael and thats the fight that would be happening right now. If Chael turned down the fight then Dana would announce that Chael turned down the fight. He has been extremely vocal about who is accepting to fight or declining to fight. 

And "LOGIC" is the portion where Chael has no reason to want to fight on the 1st but not on the 22nd. Duh

Chael Sonnen came to 205 to get that title. He wouldnt decline a fight with Jones for anything.


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> What the hell are you talking about. You are the one claiming Chael only wanted to fight on the 1st. Im the one telling you that Chael was NEVER offered to fight on the 22nd. If that was an option Chael would jump on it so quick it would make your head spin. If Dana White WANTED Chael to fight on the 22nd he would have offered the fight to Chael and thats the fight that would be happening right now. If Chael turned down the fight then Dana would announce that Chael turned down the fight. He has been extremely vocal about who is accepting to fight or declining to fight.
> 
> And "LOGIC" is the portion where Chael has no reason to want to fight on the 1st but not on the 22nd. Duh
> 
> Chael Sonnen came to 205 to get that title. He wouldnt decline a fight with Jones for anything.


and yet he remains silent that a guy thats still fighting at mw and had no known plans to move to lhw is getting the shot over him because dana says so and never even gave him the chance.

you say chael has no reason not to accept the fight but dana felt there was no reason to give him the shot because he had another lhw lined up....no he got another mw.

chael wants the fight so bad he keeps quiet and doesn't ask for that fight since dana didn't offer it to him. lol

all of this comes back you claiming jones is a coward who pulled out of 151. but according to belfort, fertita told him nobody wanted jones on the 22, i assume that includes sonnen, because "LOGIC" dictates they give him sonnen since hes now willing to take the fight on the 22nd.

chaels a troll and you just eat it up.

EDit: and so im clear with your argument your only problem with anything i posted so far is my assumption that chael never really wanted to fight jones on the 22nd. wow just wow


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thelegend said:


> and yet he remains silent that a guy thats still fighting at mw and had no known plans to move to lhw is getting the shot over him because dana says so and never even gave him the chance.
> 
> you say chael has no reason not to accept the fight but dana felt there was no reason to give him the shot because he had another lhw lined up....no he got another mw.
> 
> ...


he has no reason to complain that a guy who is on a 2 fight win streak is getting the title shot over him. Dana White has even said that if he wasnt forced to give Chael the fight that he wouldnt have. He wants Chael to win 2-3 fights before getting a title shot.

How the hell do you know that Chael is keeping quiet and not asking for the fight??? Do you have Dana Whites phone bugged or something???

And Actually Chael Sonnen has been vocal about wanting to fight Jones since day 1. That doesnt mean that Dana White is going to just hand him a title shot unless he absolutely has to. And on September 22nd he doesnt absolutely have to.

You are creating reasons that just arnt there or make no sense.


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> he has no reason to complain that a guy who is on a 2 fight win streak is getting the title shot over him. Dana White has even said that if he was forced to give Chael the fight that he wouldnt have. He wants Chael to win 2-3 fights before getting a title shot.
> 
> How the hell do you know that Chael is keeping quiet and not asking for the fight??? Do you have Dana Whites phone bugged or something???
> 
> You are creating reasons that just arnt there or make no sense.


yea, in the words of fertitta nobody wanted that fight. chael is already talking about jones being a coward but makes no mention of the 22nd date that jones verbally agreed to fight him. but jones is a coward.

i have created no reasons i just look at what has happened and see the illogical cry babies that are quick to forget jones has taken several fights on short notice, has saved multiple UFC cards, but at the end of the day, just like you trying to make it about something small like how i view sonnens part in this whole mess you ignore or deflect from the big picture.

#running scared of sept.22


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thelegend said:


> yea, in the words of fertitta nobody wanted that fight. chael is already talking about jones being a coward but makes no mention of the 22nd date that jones verbally agreed to fight him. but jones is a coward.
> 
> i have created no reasons i just look at what has happened and see the illogical cry babies that are quick to forget jones has taken several fights on short notice, has saved multiple UFC cards, but at the end of the day, just like you trying to make it about something small like how i view sonnens part in this whole mess you ignore or deflect from the big picture.
> 
> #running scared of sept.22


So the fact that Fertita said "Nobody wants the fight" to you means that they offered the fight to everybody on the roster and nobody accepted.?

Right...

Okay buddy. Keep reaching for the stars.

Makes total sense that Chael wants to fight on 8 days notice but not 28 days notice where he actually has time to prepare.

:confused03:


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Thelegend said:


> belfort's a mw, no lhw stepped up to fight the champ but its only jones whose scarred of sonnen. you want to argue logic how about you explain how jones is a coward and not the whole 205 div.


Yes, nobody stepped up, but Jones stepped OUT. The big difference here is he was scheduled to fight that day, he had a commitment with all of us, not the other 205s, 185s, so on. Bottom line, and this is officially stated, he is scared he might lose, it´s risky, blah, blah, blah... Of course you might lose even when fully prepared to face a specific fighter. That's the idea. 

The other events he "helped" UFC on short notice he was the one aiming for visibility and climbing steps, now as a Champion, just "sorry, wrong number..."


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> So the fact that Fertita said "Nobody wants the fight" to you means that they offered the fight to everybody on the roster and nobody accepted.?
> 
> Right...
> 
> ...


where did i say this?

is it that hard to follow to think that the first guy they go to is chael? he accepted on the first but for the 22 he needs two or three wins and at the same time they give the lhw title shot to vitor who, like chael has zero recent wins at lhw?

it makes sense if chael wanted to fight jones without giving him the chance to prepare for the fight. but you know what? explaining seems to be useless. 

sportsman^commitment to all of us?, if you mean the UFC and to fight Hendo than yes, thats it. he is not scared to lose. if you believe he is scared to go into a fight without prep time than fine. again nobody argues that a current champ would fight on less than a weeks notice, nobody. which is funny since in the past its happened before. but its clear that you so called "fans" can't even put a decent argument together.

and to your last point lol jones was the champ when he took that fight with lyoto. and all those fights prove is that he will take short notice fights and that yes dana jumped the gun.

big picture Dana cancelled the event not jones. garbage card outside main event and hendo pulls out extremely late due to an injury he sustained weeks earlier, and you expect your champ to just accept a fight? really? wow just wow.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

Having time to look over this situation I can come to four conclusions:

I. It's not just Jon Jones' fault. Everyone ****ed up here. Jones, Dan Henderson, the UFC, Dana, Greg Jackson, and Machida. The event wasn't cancelled due to Jones' actions alone, there were definitely other factors from other parties that led to the cancellation of UFC 151.

II. As I said in another thread, this whole situation is going to be awful for Jones, who already has a horrible PR image. He has a self-righteous attitude and then gets a DUI. He claims to be a warrior but turns down an easy fight. He says that TRT is for 'normal people' and has notoriously thin-skin and comes off as immature and selfish. REGARDLESS of the context that these comments/whatever were made in, it's still what people are going to read and see in the headlines. Jones already has problems with his popularity on the commercial stage as well, so this isn't Tito Ortiz or Nick Diaz hate where people will still buy your PPV's.

III. The UFC needs to start doing things different. Dana White has been aggressive in promoting the UFC, but personally I beleive that's it already has, or is about to peak and cards are being stretched too thin and PPV buys have sunk. In my opinion it should be one PPV a month, with the prelude of a free fight card on FOX, FX, or FUEL every other month. I think most people would be happy with that. 

IV. This is just my theory, but this is why I don't necessarily like dominant champions all the time. Jones is the king of an extremely shallow division with again talent and few contenders. Now he's fighting Vitor Belfort for the title next month. Belfort hasn't fought in the Light-Heavyweight division in years, neither has Sonnen. When you're calling up on Middleweights to challenge the Light-Heavyweight champion, it's something to be said about the division and it's just making the UFC look bad.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Thelegend said:


> sportsman^commitment to all of us?, if you mean the UFC and to fight Hendo than yes, thats it. he is not scared to lose. if you believe he is scared to go into a fight without prep time than fine. again nobody argues that a current champ would fight on less than a weeks notice, nobody. which is funny since in the past its happened before. but its clear that you so called "fans" can't even put a decent argument together.
> 
> and to your last point lol jones was the champ when he took that fight with lyoto. and all those fights prove is that he will take short notice fights and that yes dana jumped the gun.


Jones was the champ before Machida, that was misplaced by me. Noted, water under the bridge. For the rest you just mentioned, clearly explanations coming from a new spoiled generation of fans and spoiled "champions". Not prepared to fight a specific fighter? How a man, a Champion can claim he is a Mixed Martial Artist issuing these lines?

The sport grew up supported by real warriors who would face their own fear and man up against fighters they could never prepare for because they use to fight in tournaments, competing with surprise opponents depending on other results, often three times in a single night and sometimes heavier than them. Not mentioning the lack of info we have all spread over the media today about fighter skills, fight videos etc.

What we need today to these chicken champions and their followers is a little Stephan Bonnar blood transfusion so they can learn what fighting spirit is all about.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thelegend said:


> where did i say this?
> 
> is it that hard to follow to think that the first guy they go to is chael? he accepted on the first but for the 22 he needs two or three wins and at the same time they give the lhw title shot to vitor who, like chael has zero recent wins at lhw?
> 
> ...


You have been saying it in almost every post. You are using it to claim that Chael didnt want the fight on the 22nd when in fact it doesnt mean that at all. 

Do you realize that even though Vitor doesnt have recent wins at LHW he does have 2 wins at MW??? How many recent wins does Chael have at MW??? Wait NONE thats right. Chael just lost his last fight which was a TITLE SHOT FIGHT. It makes no sense to give Chael the fight if you can find someone else that fits better. There is a reason they went for Machida first. 

And Jon Jones would NOT fight on less then a weeks notice. Thats actually been proven with him you know... NOT FIGHTING on less then a weeks notice.


Jesus its like talking to a Brick wall.

*Come back when you have a shred of proof that Chael pulled out of the 22nd fight.*

Cause currently you are just making stuff up and using nothing to back up your claim. Except stuff you misinterpreted ofcourse.


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## MikeHawk (Sep 11, 2009)

Jones is on the front page of Yahoo with the title "UFC superstar now most hated man in MMA." Certainly not good for him..
Here's the article:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mma--jon-jones--decision-to-not-fight-chael-sonnen-triggers-outrage-from-fans--boss.html


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> *You have been saying it in almost every post. You are using it to claim that Chael didnt want the fight on the 22nd when in fact it doesnt mean that at all. *
> 
> *Do you realize that even though Vitor doesnt have recent wins at LHW he does have 2 wins at MW??? How many recent wins does Chael have at MW??? Wait NONE thats right. Chael just lost his last fight which was a TITLE SHOT FIGHT. It makes no sense to give Chael the fight if you can find someone else that fits better. There is a reason they went for Machida first. *
> 
> ...


wow just wow

you keep trying to argue this point for what reason i don't know. totally separate form my main argument but you seem hung up on chael so let me make it simple.



you infer from jones not taking the fight that he is a coward, you assume that because he did not accept a change in opponent on a weeks notice. you interpret that fact to mean that jones is scared to fight sonnen.

i infer from chael not fighting on the 22, after he himself claimed to be willing to fight anywhere anytime to mean he did not want that fight on the 22. I actually base that on fertitta telling vitor nobody wanted to fight jones on the 22. 

why would you think fertitta was talking about every fighter. you assume that but why?

it makes sense for him to be talking about actual 205 fighters and the guy they tried to match up with jones on the first.

you have nothing to back up your claim that jones or any fighter is a coward except what you infer. im doing the same and inferring that chael didn't want the fight except when jones was unprepared. is this hard to understand? 


and im not sure what your arguing with vitor? hes a mw. how many wins or what streak hes on means nothing in the lhw div. especially for the title. im still shocked that no lhw stepped up at all. 

chael should never have been offered and the fight should have been postponed, thats what professional orgs do. they move the fight and bump up the card, and if they have to they eat the loss. they dont cancel the card and blame the champ for pulling out instead of giving the other guys on the card a chance to get paid and put on a show.:confused05:

dana is an idiot and ruined his own card, i dont like jones pulling out but i dislike hiding injuries even more. especially when it leads to the cluster**** that is 151 which will remain numbered and a cancelled card.

for all the talk nobody signed to fight on the 22 except for vitor. thats all that it comes down to. its fine if you think fighters who fight for a living are cowards. especially if its the champ who has already beat some of the best. but jones need not apologize to anyone.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

I really enjoy watch Jones to perform. He is such a skilled, gifted and powerful LHW. But IMHO, once it was offered a fight by UFC, in his weight class he should accept fighting even Herb Dean. 

Dana is a business man. This card was actually bad, but countless others were great. So calling him an idiot only for this? Go watch WWF, then.


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> I really enjoy watch Jones to perform. He is such a skilled, gifted and powerful LHW. But IMHO, once it was offered a fight by UFC, in his weight class he should accept fighting even Herb Dean.
> 
> Dana is a business man. This card was actually bad, but countless others were great. So calling him an idiot only for this? Go watch WWF, then.


if your talking about me i call him an idiot because its not the first card that was bad and it certainly wont be the last. i call him that because he just discredited his champ, and the whole div. in one fell swoop. 

its fine if your mad jones didn't accept the fight but dont try and blame him for the card you put together. 7+ other fights on the card, its your job to promote them-not point fingers at jones for the paychecks you choose not to give.

i cant think of any clearer way to explain my position than this. blame dan for not disclosing the injury asap, blame jones for not taking the fight with sonnen. but don't blame anybody but the ufc for the cancelled card.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Jon keeps trying to apologize but he doesn't know how.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

oldfan said:


> Jon keeps trying to apologize but he doesn't know how.


Maybe because there is no need for him to apologize in the first place?!.....

How about Henderson apologize because he was stuborn enough to continue his camp injured for 3 weeks until he couldn't take it no more and by that time it was a little too late for the whole thing to be handled correctly?!...

I have a feeling things would have been handled a lot more preofesionally by everyone involved, if Henderson would have raised his hand, right there, right then.

Is that a good reason to apologize?!
Is that a good reason to blame someone for the card going down?!

Just sayin' Oldie...


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Nike Knows.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Thelegend said:


> i cant think of any clearer way to explain my position than this. blame dan for not disclosing the injury asap, blame jones for not taking the fight with sonnen. but don't blame anybody but the ufc for the cancelled card.


It's not Jones fault alone the event was canceled, but if he was the cage fighter his bad boy's face would suggest, the show would go on.

As I said before: Stephan Bonnar, Chris Leben or Wanderlei Silva patches to pass some fighter dignity to these new "champs".


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Soojooko said:


> Nike Knows.


"Nobody" knows.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

limba said:


> "Nobody" knows.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

oldfan said:


>


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## RearNaked (Jul 20, 2012)

Does anyone still believe Jones` claim that he doesn`t want to fight Anderson because of mutual respect?

It's pure fear. The guys is scared of Chael, then he's definitely scared of Anderson.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

I understand where he is coming from and his reasoning is valid but Anderson Silva or GSP would have accepted the fight. He must not believe he is the best otherwise he wouldn't be afraid to fight someone who hasn't trained for a fight when he has had a full training camp and would be coming in at peak condition.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thelegend said:


> wow just wow
> 
> you keep trying to argue this point for what reason i don't know. totally separate form my main argument but you seem hung up on chael so let me make it simple.
> 
> ...


(You can just skip all this and read the article on the bottom to realize your imaginary lies are just that. If you want to quickly find out you are wrong that is)

Ok lets take the confusion out of it.

Your quote -


> nobody realizes that chael was the only guy willing to step up on the first, but just like the rest of lhw was unwilling to fight him with just 20+ days prep time.


Are you still trying to make that claim???

If so with what "EVIDENCE"

If its your "Fertita told Vitor nobody wanted to fight him" argument then try again. That in no way means that they offered the fight to Chael and he declined it. That in no way means Chael called Dana or Fertita and told him he does not want to fight Chael. 

What that does mean is that the people they offered the fight TO all declined the fight. And here let me see if Fertita mentions that Chael declined the fight.



> After Lyoto *Machida*, who was the official number one contender to take on the winner of Jones vs. Henderson, turned down his title shot, which would have been on 31 days notice, Mauricio Rua was the next guy offered the fight. According to UFC CEO, Lorenzo Fertitta, *"Shogun"* declined the fight, as well.
> 
> OR
> 
> "Yes, *Machida *and '*Shogun*' passed," Fertitta said. "Thank God for old-school real fighters."


Okay so where does Fertita mention that Chael declined or was "unwilling" to fight Jones on the 22nd??? Yup no where.

So unless you have Dana Whites phone tapped or Chael Sonnens phone tapped and you have been listening in and heard Chael Sonnen say he does not want to fight Jones on the 22nd, you have absolutely not evidence to support your claim.


And thats the point i quoted you on since the first time i quoted you and that is the point i am discussing with you. 


So now either show me where it says Chael turned down the fight with Jones or is unwilling to fight Jones, quit going around making rumors up based on your fantasies.

(And i hope you can finally realize how stupid it is to make false claims about a guy not wanting to fight someone that he already accepted to fight. The only person "unwilling" to fight was Jon Jones.)


And also here is an article you should read.



> *When Dan Henderson's hurt, Chael Sonnen doesn't make sense and both Lyoto Machida and Mauricio Rua turn you down, who you gonna call?*
> 
> Vitor Belfort.
> 
> ...



Now never bother me with your stupid lies again.


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> (You can just skip all this and read the article on the bottom to realize your imaginary lies are just that. If you want to quickly find out you are wrong that is)
> 
> Ok lets take the confusion out of it.
> 
> ...


wow just wow

*you are clearly missing the point badly. i already explained my reasoning as simple as possible, if you wish to continue this over pm, by all means.*

*the only stupid lie here is your lie that jon jones is a coward. *

this nonsense claim makes you look like a troll and an idiot.

get off of chaels nuts for a second and you'll see that my main argument is jones didn't ruin the card to have to apologize.

holy shit its like your blind to my main point and desperately want evidence that chael did not want to fight on the 22.

the ufc can't find anybody and nobody is publicly asking to fight jones for the title on the 22. That tells me all i need to know. see it different if you wish, but stop being retarded.

you've gone full derper here and im sure you still want to argue chael. By all means go ahead, ill respond to the best of my ability since it is clear you only have a problem with that speculation on my part. *(why you scream for evidence to speculation is beyond me)*

and rumors based on fantasies would be something to call your claims not mine.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

As suggested - carry on in PM if you must... Please keep the bickering off the board guys, you know this.

Thank you


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