# The Fedor debate abruptly shifts! - greatest of all time??



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

No longer is anyone with any credibility arguing Fedor to be the best HW. Even the most hardcore enthusiasts are accepting he is actually not at the top of the heap, and really not top 10 at this point. After his loss to Werdum, many of the Sherdog hosts still asserted he was still possibly the best, and just got caught. Big Foot ended those speculations for good. 

So, a new topic for hot debate is arising quickly. Was Fedor the greatest HW of all time?? J Breen affirmed this quite categorically on BDATB, lamenting the amazing accomplishment of staying undefeated for so long. 

Is Fedor the GOAT? Not a chance. He was a good HW at a time when the HW division was _weak_ to put it mildly. He was once at the very top of it. He then prolonged a career of beating very small opponents, or puffed up light heavyweights by fighting and beating cans. He avoided the best for a good 6-7 years maybe longer. Had he gone the route of the UFC, he would have been cut or relegated to "interesting matches" years ago. Yet I would have respected him infinitely more for it. He deserves a place in mma history, but this GOAT stuff is seriously making me sick. But welcome to the new Fedor debate!


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## hixxy (Sep 7, 2007)

Yet if he had knocked Silva out within 20 seconds last night i doubt you would be saying any of the above.. One, two, hell even three fights dont define a fighters career.. He is one of the greatest without a doubt.. as far as the greatest of all time, i dont think one person can ever be defined as that.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Yes he's the GOAT and yes he's the greatest HW of all time up until this point into the sport.

If you want to get "technical" there's no GOAT until a sport is completely finished, all you can say and guess is who is the greatest up until this point, and it's Fedor in my opinion and in many others.

Also, Fedor being GOAT is not a new debate at all, that's been going as long as it's been debated is he the best HW in the world.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

He is the greatest HW of all time, but just like any other great, their time passes. That doesn't take away from their greatness, it just means they're no longer in the running for the top level rankings. Its gonna take alot of fights for someone to match his run. We saw the end of a great career last night.


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## Buakaw_GSP (Jan 9, 2011)

Is he THE GOAT? Well no, but is he still arguably the GOAT? Yes he is. He is still in the discussion of the GOAT in MMA when you are discussing them. His current streak started to leave doubt in peoples minds, but Fedor should not be written off completely. He should be taken down a few pegs though. The point is , if he gets out now, he still has some credibility to the GOAT discussion. If M-1 forces Fedor to fight again, then his legacy is going to be diminished. Fedor should quit now while he is still teetering on the top floor.


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## streetpunk08 (Jul 15, 2006)

Who the GOAT is, is nothing but 100% pure opinion. There is no way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt who is because people break down career's differently o emphasize things more or less than others. Personally I think Anderson Silva if he retired right now would be my GOAT.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

I think Fedor is the greatest HW of all time but I'll probably have to put Anderson Silva as the best of all time. He has the longest reign as an actively defending champion in MMA and has a lot of wins over other champions.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

The best HW that has been in MMA and one of the best fighters in general of MMA , obvs its opinion based so one set of fans will say Fedor is the best and the others will say who ever else is in contention. 

To me he is an exciting dynamic fighter who was one of the rare guys dangerous in all positions and never put a boring fight on atleast i was never bored , he also is extremely humble and faced some great fighters.


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## Saenchai (Mar 11, 2010)

Calminian said:


> So, a new topic for hot debate is arising quickly. Was Fedor the greatest HW of all time??


Ofcourse he was the best hw of all time and probably he'll be remembered as such. I wanna see other dudes that fight today to come to 30-0 in pro mma! Except Velasquez there ain't a guy who could come anywhere near but even velasquez is 28 and once you become a champ in the ufc you fight like 1 or 2 times a year! Ofcourse fedor is not as good as he was few years ago but what, when guy is out of his prime he emediately aint shit and never was? cmon! There's lots of guys that have been fighting for long time and they aint in their prime anymore, same happend to wanderlei, minotauro, cro cop, sylvia, from boxing few of the best dudes, muhammad ali, mike tyson, roy jones jr, all of them were once unbeatable but they got smoked like they were never even a serious contenders on top fighting/boxing scene few years later when they were out of their prime! But tell me something, when you were like 10 years old and if you were a fan of boxing back then, who were you looking up to? Trevor berbick for beating ali or ali?  james douglas or mike tyson? honestly, how many of you even know who james douglas is? we all know who the f*ck tyson is right? calzaghe has perfect record in boxing and victory over roy jones jr and how many of you actually prefer calzaghe over jones? how many of you know who calzaghe is lol? same thing goes for fedor, he's mike tyson of this time and guys like overeem, lesnar, antonio silva etc are just a bunch of joe fraziers and trevor berbicks! the thing about fedor is that he became a legend in pride which was japanese org. so many people didn't even have a chance to follow him or didn't bother watch a japanese fighting orgs, especially here in US so they were like who the f*ck is fedor when he was mentioned as the best fighter ever..other thing was dana white who was talking crap about fedor every time he had a chance, he was refering to him as somebody who didn't do shit in his life. If you pay attention to white's interviews you'll see that he gave him less credit as a fighter then he does to kimbo slice but hey, we can't really argue with that cus dana does that to every guy that aint in ufc (points at his latest bs talk about harschel walker, i mean that guy is a f**king animal for coming in pro mma after few months of training at the age of 48! for white he was just another douchebag who can't do shit! why? well cus he aint in ufc!) .... and that is a big deal, with white talking all the bullcrap fedor can't really get recognition from US fans cus they're in love with ufc but i don't judge em, ufc is BY FAR the best org in the world and things about comparing it with SF is just dumb but so is dana's bs talk like he fought NOBODY, i mean cmon dude lol....the point is fedor will be remembered as one of the best and he deserves it. i always wanted to see him in the ufc, it would be great seeing him fight there + he would consolidate his legacy as being the best ever but he is the best even without that! i mean, you need to have big balls to fight at your natural weight without cutting or gaining. I don't know man, I just don't understand you guys talking smack about a guy like that, sometimes i'm getting feeling like you're praising types of dana white and dana heh, such a smart fella, I think he should fight fedor for being so smart! That's it from me, peace!


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Mir has had a more impressive career at HW he finished Nog and Crocop which Fedor couldn't and subbed Timmy and Brock as well. Kongo is a better win than the vast majority of the people Fedor beat. Fedor's career exemplifies everything that is wrong with boxing losses don't mean as much in MMA if you are fighting top competition all the time. HW has always sucked though you can't be the GOAT of the sport as a HW. Anderson Silva and GSP are the only people even in the GOAT conversation right now.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Fedor is the GHOHT(greatest heavyweight of his time). What he accomplished and the adversity he battled through is amazing but there is a new breed of HW monsters roaming the MMA world now. We have only seen the beginning of it this past year or so imo.

Weight classes were designed for a reason. A skilled yet flabby russian may have once been able to dominate all that stood in his ways but those days are done as larger skilled fighters have moved into the picture.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Saenchai said:


> .... I wanna see other dudes that fight today to come to 30-0 in pro mma! .....


If they do it legit, fighting the best, great. Fedor fought mostly LHW's and then spent the last 7 or so years of his career ducking the best HW's. That's his legacy, unfortunately. Ducking and protecting his record. And even in the minor leagues he couldn't capture a belt.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

osmium said:


> Mir has had a more impressive career at HW he finished Nog and Crocop which Fedor couldn't and subbed Timmy and Brock as well. Anderson Silva and GSP are the only people even in the GOAT conversation right now.


Anderson is light years above GSP if finishing plays a role. As far as fighting better competition, Anderson/Gsp win easily as of late, but you gotta give it to Fedor, heart of a champion


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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

Fedor is the GOAT at HW, but overall you can't have any other choice than GSP IMO.


edit: It's even more impressive what Fedor has accomplished being a small HW, for todays standard i think he would be one of the best at 225


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

box said:


> Anderson is light years above GSP if finishing plays a role. As far as fighting better competition, Anderson/Gsp win easily as of late, but you gotta give it to Fedor, heart of a champion


I have Andy well above GSP but GSP's accomplishments are the second most impressive in the history of the sport and there is a huge gap between him and number 3 whoever you want to put there.


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## Ryankmfdm (Sep 24, 2010)

osmium said:


> Mir has had a more impressive career at HW he finished Nog and Crocop which Fedor couldn't and subbed Timmy and Brock as well. Kongo is a better win than the vast majority of the people Fedor beat. Fedor's career exemplifies everything that is wrong with boxing losses don't mean as much in MMA if you are fighting top competition all the time. HW has always sucked though you can't be the GOAT of the sport as a HW. Anderson Silva and GSP are the only people even in the GOAT conversation right now.


Nog was pretty clearly not himself in the Mir fight (staph infection, IIRC), and the Cro Cop fight was 2.9 rounds of what looked like sparring with a freak knockout at the end. In addition, Mir did secure a win over a green Lesnar, but got *destroyed* in their second fight. Kongo may be the only valid Mir win you've mentioned. Who else have you got?


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

I don't think its fair to just write off Fedor now because of two losses. Personally I think his heart's just not really in it anymore. He has his religion and his life in Starry Oskol. His mind is far from America and the cage. I, in a way, wouldn't mind seeing him bow out and retire a hero.


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## Saenchai (Mar 11, 2010)

osmium said:


> Mir has had a more impressive career at HW he finished Nog and Crocop which Fedor couldn't and subbed Timmy and Brock as well. Kongo is a better win than the vast majority of the people Fedor beat. Fedor's career exemplifies everything that is wrong with boxing losses don't mean as much in MMA if you are fighting top competition all the time. HW has always sucked though you can't be the GOAT of the sport as a HW. Anderson Silva and GSP are the only people even in the GOAT conversation right now.


really dude? my comment is above yours and you learned NOTHING? crocop (50%) vs mir, cro cop (120%) vs fedor (same goes for nog...does that tell you anything? are you really watching mma since yesterday and know nothing about it? COME ON! :angry01: and kongo? lol......





> If they do it legit, fighting the best, great. Fedor fought mostly LHW's and then spent the last 7 or so years of his career ducking the best HW's. That's his legacy, unfortunately. Ducking and protecting his record. And even in the minor leagues he couldn't capture a belt.


ok so..Brett Rogers, Andrei Arlovski, Tim Sylvia, Hong-Man Choi (this one especially), Mark Hunt, Mark Coleman (i count current LHWs under HWs BACK THEN, cus if you say he aint a HW then he never was UFC HW champ and i could also say fedor never was a real HW either due to his height etc.  ), Wagner Martins (freak show  but definetly a LHW!!!!! ;D;D), Cro cop, Tsuyoshi Kohsaka, Minotauro, Naoya Ogawa, Gary Goodridge, Kazuyuki Fujita, Heath Herring, Semmy Schilt........

..yeah well, most of them were definetly LHWs 

i'll jump over ducking thing cus it's part true..

but this..."And even in the minor leagues he couldn't capture a belt." ???????  :thumb02: ... he was a hw champ in pride which at the time was IN MY OPIONION twice as good as UFC was back then so wtf are you talking about? :sarcastic12:


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

osmium said:


> I have Andy well above GSP but GSP's accomplishments are the second most impressive in the history of the sport and there is a huge gap between him and number 3 whoever you want to put there.


How do you have Andy well above GSP? 

Gsp has beat BJ Penn twice, Matt Hughes twice, Thiago Alves, koscheck twice, Trigg, sean sherk, jon fitch, matt serra and jason miller.

How do you have Andy so far ahead of him?


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## Saenchai (Mar 11, 2010)

maybe cus of the way he finishes fights? 13-0 in ufc, only 2 fights were won by decision, not to mention that he could win those 2 fights early aswell..if you watched the fights you could see maia and leites had nothing on him.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Saenchai said:


> maybe cus of the way he finishes fights? 13-0 in ufc, only 2 fights were won by decision, not to mention that he could win those 2 fights early aswell..if you watched the fights you could see maia and leites had nothing on him.


Thats all well and good using ifs and buts but he didnt finish maia and he didnt finish Leites.

He has more finishes, but GSP has fought better competition. You could make the argument that Anderson has fought a real lack of wrestlers. The two elite wrestlers he fought, Hendo and Sonnen definitely gave him the most troubles. He was completely dominated in the sonnen fight for 4.5 rounds.

Gsp has fought and dominated the whos who. The strikers, the BJJ players and the wrestlers.

Edit: I can understand osium saying he has andy above GSP, but to claim that he is leagues ahead of gsp is just ridiculous.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Thats all well and good using ifs and buts but he didnt finish maia and he didnt finish Leites.
> 
> He has more finishes, but GSP has fought better competition. You could make the argument that Anderson has fought a real lack of wrestlers. The two elite wrestlers he fought, Hendo and Sonnen definitely gave him the most troubles. He was completely dominated in the sonnen fight for 4.5 rounds.
> 
> ...


It would be really cool if they fought each other for a definitive GOAT.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

MrObjective said:


> It would be really cool if they fought each other for a definitive GOAT.


It's inevitable.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Greatest HW of all time, without question.


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## Crester (Apr 5, 2009)

Fedor definitely deserves respect for having such a long streak of success in the heavyweight division. But the greatest of all times if *Anderson Silva*. Silva is even older that Fedor and still looks untouchable.


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## Shoegazer (Jun 23, 2007)

I'll buy into Fedor as the best HW of all time so far, but mainly because of uncertainty and the lack of anyone else having a better claim. Clearly he has a gaudy record and you don't stay undefeated that long, even against cans, without having mad skills. How would he have fared against the UFC's heavyweights the past couple of years? We'll never know. I wish we did. It would make things much clearer. I suspect if he had his undefeated record would have been snapped a couple years ago. 

I'd have to take Anderson Silva over Fedor as the GOAT. They both started in 2000, have very similar records, and Anderson is actually a year older than Fedor. Look where Anderson is in his career today vs. where Fedor is. Problem is, I can't shake the fact that Chael Sonnen convincingly whooped that ass for 4.5 rounds. Yeah, I know, Anderson still won. It doesn't erase the feeling that there's a middleweight walking around out there right now that can toss Anderson around like a rag doll.

Good god...I guess for all the reasons stated above, I just convinced myself that Greasy Georges is my current GOAT. I feel a little sick. I guess there's still hope for a GSP-Silva superfight for Anderson to secure the GOAT.


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## InAweOfFedor (Aug 13, 2008)

I'll always be a fan. The Silva fight proved to me how the division is evolving, when you combine skill with size, determination, game planning and freakish strength you get Silva... This was by far his greatest performance and earmarks how much of a threat he is in this tournament.

To be honest I didn't think this was a good match up for Fedor, but Fedor battled for as long as he could, but seemed to telegraph the overhand right and couldn't work out his distance as he was surprised at times by bigfoots reach.

Props to Silva, he was awesome. I love Fedor and his approach however I feel that perhaps his management has interfered to much over the course of his career. He should of gone to the UFC years ago and sharpened his skills against top guys, and he should of and still could drop to light heavyweight, but none of those things tarnish his impact on the sport to date.

Fedor is awesome, but how long can he seriously take on guys that much bigger for?... Today's heavyweights combination of speed, strength, skill and power have finally caught up to and passed him. There is no shame in losing to Werdum in his guard and there is certainly no shame in being crushed by a bigfoot... But if he is gonna keep fighting why not fight guys that are at least comparable in size... 

It would take nothing for him to cut 25 pounds of fat, he could be devastating still if he dropped to light heavyweight... Imagine it... Coleman was a bigger heavyweight and dropped in his forties, Fedor is only 34 and some fighters consider that around their prime.

Why not try it once, take a fight with Babalu or King Mo, both would be marketable and see how he goes... I think he could fight another three or four years at least if he doesn't have to take on guys 40 - 60 pounds heavier.
His power would be devastating, his speed comparable and his chin unbreakable. 

If not and he retires... Like I said I'll always be a fan.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Ryankmfdm said:


> Nog was pretty clearly not himself in the Mir fight (staph infection, IIRC), and the Cro Cop fight was 2.9 rounds of what looked like sparring with a freak knockout at the end. In addition, Mir did secure a win over a green Lesnar, but got *destroyed* in their second fight. Kongo may be the only valid Mir win you've mentioned. Who else have you got?


A lot of convenient excuses and nothing more. Mir is the HW GOAT which means basically nothing since even though the division is a lot better now it still sucks and has no depth and JDS and Cain will easily surpass him soon.



MrObjective said:


> It would be really cool if they fought each other for a definitive GOAT.


A close decision either way doesn't really impact it much for me a finish does more so. It will be decided by the entirety of their careers not one fight. 

Andy has faced equal if not better competition in his career beating top 10 guys and champions/former champions in 3 weight divisions. Dominating a very good fighter is one thing and making a very good fighter look like he doesn't belong in the same sport is another. Finishing guys who are clearly very talented is hard that can't be overlooked when comparing them.


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## Coosh (Sep 25, 2009)

xeberus said:


> Greatest HW of all time, without question.


It's hard to argue Fedor is the greatest HW of all time when there are many better HWs walking around today. 

Fedor is the greatest HW of his time. That's about it.

Anderson Silva is by far the greatest MMA fighter of all time. In that regard Fedor is not even close.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

box said:


> He is the greatest HW of all time, but just like any other great, their time passes. That doesn't take away from their greatness, it just means they're no longer in the running for the top level rankings. Its gonna take alot of fights for someone to match his run. We saw the end of a great career last night.


Well said +rep


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

osmium said:


> Andy has faced equal if not better competition in his career beating top 10 guys and champions/former champions in 3 weight divisions. Dominating a very good fighter is one thing and making a very good fighter look like he doesn't belong in the same sport is another. Finishing guys who are clearly very talented is hard that can't be overlooked when comparing them.


Ya, but the GSP Vs Silva would winner would define one fighter's career as the absolute GOAT. GSP will eventually move up, and I think he'll tear through MW like he has WW with takedowns and LnP.

Best well explained by this:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

I think GSP would have a lot tougher time at MW than people seem to think.


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## FrodoFraggins (Oct 25, 2009)

He's the most accomplished HW of all time. I'm not sure that Fedor in his prime is better than todays best heavies.

As far as greatest fighters of all time, I won't put him as #1 as in my opinion the last few years tarnished him. Fedor and M-1 have been content to pad his record rather than fight the best. Whereas Anderson Silva continues to fight top contenders regularly and has skills that are not dated.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

There is no greatest of all time, but if there were my vote would go to Fedor. No doubt about that.


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## Scorch (Apr 2, 2007)

He's still the GOAT. His time as the P4P king has passed, but he'll always be the GOAT in MMA.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

You know what I love about this debate?

That, no matter how many people try to prove Fedor was nothing special, no matter now much logic and evidence is used... the reality is that he will go down as an absolute legend. The tarnish-ers are out with their big fat brushes, trying to paint over a magnificent piece of art and failing.

Tarnish all day long folks. Its a waste of time. The history books are already written. 99% of all MMA fighters ( the ones whos opinion counts ) hold Fedor in the highest esteem.

The ones that dont like it? They face an uphill battle trying to sway MMA history books into give a shit about their opinion.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

I would Still say he is top 10, you have to give serious credit to Big Foot and move him up the list.

As for GOAT that benchmark is yet to be overcome, I don't think Anderson Silva is that far off but one think Fedor proved time and time again back when he was No.1 was been able to handle bigger stronger guys due to been in the HW division and the weight range in the division.

For me if Anderson if Anderson wants to become the GOAT he needs to win the LHW title and defend it 3 times and any sorry excuses he has for not wanting to do the because he has friends in the division who he does not want to stand in the way of a title run against is just not going to cut any leverage.

If you think a MW champion with a pro record of 28 wins 4 loses stands above a ex-HW champion holding 31 wins 3 loses with 1 of those losses been very ruling and a 31 fight winning streak counting out any unruling loses then you are very wrong, for one the HW title holds more credibility just on the danger factor of having every opponent you face having more power and finish power making the championship a lot more challenging, just look at the average length of time any UFC HW champion has managed to hold on to the belt, the further you move down the weight classes the easier it becomes to hold the belt its a fact so record wise you need to prove more to fight for the GOAT position, if you still need more prof look at Miguel Torres, To say at MW Anderson would have to add at least another 5 or 10 wins to his record, holding 2 belts would jump his credibility so 4 wins at LHW against contendership opponents including winning the title, should he loss a fight during which time you have to again totally recalculate the targets which move further back.

My current top 10 HW list would look like this

Cain
Overeem
JDS
Werdum
Bigfoot
Fedor
Brock
Carwin
Barnett
Mir or Rogers its close at No.10, if Rogers beats Barnett it will clearly shoot him up the list knocking Mir out the top 10, if Barnett win then he will edge down slight having lost to a higher ranked opponent giving Mir a clear place in the top 10.

As for Mir vs Nelson, Mir loses he drops a lot having lost to a lower ranked opponent, Nelson has the potential to claim and be edging on top 10 if Rogers loses, Mir wins does not really change put if not for the fact that Rogers is set also to fight he would of make it clear that he stands above him, between these 2 fights however it will end in a clear Top 10 list without the added edge of another fight.


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## strikersrevenge (Nov 20, 2010)

This makes me teary eyed. Emelianenko Fedor is a legend and has a vote or the greatest HW of all time and the greatest P4P fighter of all time. In his prime he was unstoppable and probably the best fighter on the planet.


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## Johnni G (Dec 2, 2009)

A shame he didn't retire before the losses


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Johnni G said:


> A shame he didn't retire before the losses


Well, he certainly tried by joining minor league organizations after Pride. He had every intention of avoiding those fighters he knew could beat him and protecting his record. Problem is he got schooled by some second rate fighters in the process, exposing himself. Frankly he got what he deserved. Would have been much more impressive to take a whooping from a great fighter. 

I think his record is a sham. It was an illusion, fill with light heavyweights and small heavyweights and second rate cuts and has beens. And this stuff about Crocop Nog prime vs. Crocop Nog now is just more cultic slight of hand. Nog is actually a better fighter today. He just got passed up by better fighters. 

I don't buy any of it. He was the best of a weak division at one time. Modern HW's would have destroyed him in his prime. Nuff said.


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## texturedleech (Apr 11, 2010)

Like what happen today ronaldo reitre from professional football everyone remeber the great days not the past few year where he become overweight i see that happening with fedor.


He may of never fought in the ufc but is that not a good thing too show their is life in mma rather than being in the ufc.


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## SonOfZion (Feb 14, 2011)

Johnni G said:


> A shame he didn't retire before the losses


 not for his bank account


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Fedor was the best of a era, nothing more and nothing less.


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## strikersrevenge (Nov 20, 2010)

Fedor in his prime was a beast. Nothing more nothing less lol. Seriusly though that dude was pretty good.


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