# Mir vs. Nog, I never thought about it this way.



## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

I want to say for the record 
1. This is NOT my post, I took it off some guy on Sherdog
2. I still think Nog will viciously murder Mir, but I think it's a good post that deserves some attention.



Shamrockftw said:


> Frank Mir started his UFC career debuting against a very high level BJJ practitioner in Roberto Traven (Mundial winner and an ADCC champion) Frank Mir who was a purple belt at the time and in only his 1st UFC bout submitted the Black belt in under 2 minutes, very impressive debut, Everyone took notice, even Nog was impressed (He stated it in an interview)
> 
> Frank was then pitted against UFC Veteran Pete Williams, Pete who had faced the likes of Kevin Randleman, Semmy Schilt and former UFC HW Champion Ricco Rodriguez had never been submitted in his career, Frank Mir in his 2nd UFC bout submitted him in 46 seconds, with a very IMPRESSIVE shoulder lock (My Favourite submission finish to date)
> 
> ...


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## Uchaaa (Apr 22, 2007)

After reading this I thought: Wow, the best fighter to beat him would be someone with great bjj and good standup. This is nog.


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## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

Good post, but Nog is going to kill Mir. :thumb02:


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

So Frank Mir used to be good in his prime, and since returning to the UFC, has done lack luster. Why would I expect him to beat Nog again?


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## looney liam (Jun 22, 2007)

wukkadb said:


> So Frank Mir used to be good in his prime, and since returning to the UFC, has done lack luster. Why would I expect him to beat Nog again?


the article is trying to point out that mir did poorly after coming back from the accident because he didn't give it time to heal. now that he's recovered he's done much better. 

that was a nice find, and proves that not everyone on sherdog is a complete idiot. i still think nogs going to win the fight though. we'll get a competitive first round, and nog will begin to dominate as mir gasses.


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## IcemanCometh (Mar 9, 2007)

I cannot believe Mir didn't have medical clearance as the sherdog poster claimed and yet he was still allowed to fight. The big difference between Frank's first fight and Nog is that Nog is a better mma bjj practioner Traven. All the other wins to me are pointless b/c they aren't against top level comp. guys like Fedor, Werdum, Cro Cop, Barnett all guys Nog has fought and beaten with the one glaring blemish being Fedor. The poster is trying to say he is better than he really is but using past fights against crappy fighters, no matter how you spin Nog is the better fighter, bjj buy and champion.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

looney liam said:


> the article is trying to point out that mir did poorly after coming back from the accident because he didn't give it time to heal. now that he's recovered he's done much better.
> 
> that was a nice find, and proves that not everyone on sherdog is a complete idiot. i still think nogs going to win the fight though. we'll get a competitive first round, and nog will begin to dominate as mir gasses.


Idk, Dana White says he was fine for the Vera fight, he was just mentally fucked. Mir even talks about the reason he started doing better was b/c of some advice his wife gave him after the Vera fight.


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## CornbreadBB (Jul 31, 2008)

The only thing this post made me think is Nog wasn't going to beat him as easily as I thought, but he still will beat Mur pretty easily.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

frank mur will lose


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

Mur is gonna get raped...but he has some fkn sick submissions. His Kimura on Hardonk was also insane


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I read that and thought 2 things.

#1 This guy is fantastic at making excuses

#2 The UFC HW division really used to suck.

Frank Mir is not a top 10 HW and was never all that good to begin with.

This guy has two wins over guys with crap BJJ and now he's back.


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

I like Mir, but Nog is going to break his arm in two.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

I'm just trying to figure out if there will be more or less angst on this board if Mir wins compared to the other upsets we frequently see.

I always laugh when an mmaforum annointed one gets beaten after reading months and months of "XXX has this locked up"


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## cabby (Sep 15, 2006)

Pretty good read but everytime he lost it was because "He wasn't cleared by doctors":confused02:


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

I think im the only one who thinks Frank Mir is going to take this. I think its going to be Triangle choke in the first round.


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## CornbreadBB (Jul 31, 2008)

Flak said:


> I'm just trying to figure out if there will be more or less angst on this board if Mir wins compared to the other upsets we frequently see.
> 
> I always laugh when an mmaforum annointed one gets beaten after reading months and months of "XXX has this locked up"


I see what you're saying, wanna sig bet?! :thumb02:


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## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

Flak said:


> I'm just trying to figure out if there will be more or less angst on this board if Mir wins compared to the other upsets we frequently see.
> 
> I always laugh when an mmaforum annointed one gets beaten after reading months and months of "XXX has this locked up"


I will not lie to you...

I will go f***ing crazy if Mur beats Nog.

It would turn my entire f***ing world upside down.

But yeah, that is funny. When Chuck lost to Rashad, Forrest beat Shogun, Rampage beat Henderson (that shocked me, anyway)...


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

This would IMO be up there with Serra vs GSP.

Forrest vs Shogun I saw ways for Forrest to win not the way he did but ways.

Rashad vs Chuck wasn't that shocking at all.

Mir vs Nogueira would baffle me.


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## urbanator (Oct 15, 2006)

I noticed that a lot on this forum compare the fighter's resume and think this is a fool proofed way to predict if someone will defeat the other. That is only one way to help predict. I think that this fight can be taken from a different prospective. With Nog, you know what to expect, he is resilient. With Mir on the other hand, has been able to rise to the level of competion and win decisively when faced with top competition.

I realize that that might not be enought to convince you. For only a Mir victory will. However, my point is that Mir is that rookie (that most of you would look at that has never really proven himself) that has found a way to victory. 

Well I for one can recognize consistency in a champion. A person that rises to the competion.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

i hated that thread in sherdog....terrible nuthuggery....especially the freeman excuse....

no way this fight would be 'up there w/ serra vs. gsp'...c'mon now...


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Personally Aaronyman I see no way in hell Mir can win.

Mir hasn't had a good win since he beat Sylvia that was a long time ago.

I can't see Mir outstriking Nogueira, I can't see Mir outgrappling Nogueira on top or on the bottom, and I can't see him submitting Nogueira. I honestly don't understand how he could win I haven't looked at a main event like this since GSP vs Serra.


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## Split (Sep 28, 2006)

so Mir is in shape now? he better hide that belly, it might prevent him from getting those legs up.

Mir has strength on his submissions, no doubt about that. But is he in shape? Well according to what i last saw of him on TV, he certainly doesnt look like a guy who is going to fight in a few months.. that treadmill better be dusted off, cuz he will need it.. 

But obviously, as usual, the fight is not a locked in fight like so many like to believe.. I personally think Nog will beat him, but i wouldnt bet my house on it either. And i wouldnt bet it would be a KO or submission either.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Personally Aaronyman I see no way in hell Mir can win.
> 
> Mir hasn't had a good win since he beat Sylvia that was a long time ago.
> 
> I can't see Mir outstriking Nogueira, I can't see Mir outgrappling Nogueira on top or on the bottom, and I can't see him submitting Nogueira. I honestly don't understand how he could win I haven't looked at a main event like this since GSP vs Serra.


well than you could have put fitch vs. gsp in that category too....gsp had better striking, wrestling, and better mma grappling....

i could see mir don't well against Nog if he's on top...not sure how he'll get it there, as his wrestling sucks and his cardio is horrific....but that is def a position that i think he survive and win rounds in....and his bottom game is explosive....will he catch nog? not likely, but he can...Nog has almost been submitted by Barnett by a legbar, and Mir is very good at attacking the legs w/ submissions...


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Yea but IMO it was possible for Fitch to keep it standing and beat GSP.

I didn't think he would but it was possible.

I don't see Mir submitting Nogueira I don't think his submission skills are better then Barnett or even close.


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## spaulding91 (Sep 23, 2007)

IcemanCometh said:


> I cannot believe Mir didn't have medical clearance as the sherdog poster claimed and yet he was still allowed to fight. The big difference between Frank's first fight and Nog is that Nog is a better mma bjj practioner Traven. All the other wins to me are pointless b/c they aren't against top level comp. guys like Fedor, Werdum, Cro Cop, Barnett all guys Nog has fought and beaten with the one glaring blemish being Fedor. The poster is trying to say he is better than he really is but using past fights against crappy fighters, no matter how you spin Nog is the better fighter, bjj buy and champion.


he lost to barnett too by decision


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## AceFranklin88 (Apr 21, 2007)

The only times I've ever seen Nog look vulnerable were against Sylvia (he came back and won), against Mirko (he came back and won), and against Fedor (Fedor was unable to finish him). Let's analyze these situations. Tim and Mirko both out-struck Nog and were able to brutalize him in the stand-up. But with some phenomenal heart, determination, and jui-jitsu skills, Nog was able to persevere and come back with an impressive win. With Fedor, Nog was simply out-classed. It was absolutely heartbreaking to watch Nog be basically dominated the whole fight. 

But then we have a guy like Frank Mir. What does he have to offer that can beat Nog? He has some great jui-jitsu, but when has Nog ever looked vulnerable in jui-jitsu? Against Ricco in ADCC back in 2000 (I think)? That wasn't even in MMA. Nog might not have the best pure jitz, but he has quite possibly the best MMA translated jitz. And then we have the stand-up. If you've watched Mir's fights, I think you'd agree with me if I said his stand-up is sub-par at best. Nog at least has some polished boxing. Nog would most likely out-strike him. Then what about conditioning? Mir has gassed before and the only times I ever say "Hey, Frank Mir looked really impressive" are when he scores a quick finish win. Nog has gone the distance with the best in the world and come out on top many times. What factors are left that people can make outrageous claims of Mir winning this fight? 

Now, don't get me wrong. I always enjoy a good underdog win. Like with Serra over GSP. I was on the ground laughing. But with GSP, I feel he was still premature. His most impressive fight was his destruction of Matt Hughes at UFC 65. He was nowhere near the monster then that he is now. So it was at least understandable that Serra stood a chance. I believed in Serra and I laughed at it afterward. But with Nog, we all know what he's capable of. With Mir, we all know how his fights usually end up. But sure, anything can happen. But let's get real here. How does anyone expect Mir to win? I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm just curious as to how Mir is expected to win by some. It's baffling to me.


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## The Finisher (Mar 23, 2008)

I hope Mur beats Nog. The love he gets in the place is overwhelming. Like someone said, Mur will have to take Nog down.


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## WouldLuv2FightU (Jul 17, 2006)

I don't understand you guys. Yea Nog will prolly win BUT....

You guys saying you can't see how Mir could possibly beat him on the ground. How do you even know? Everyone Mir beat on the ground was in less than a minute. Who else does that? Nogueira usually has to wait till his opponent is wore the **** out before he submits them. 

Plus, I hate when people say Mir hasn't had a big win in years. Why does that matter? That doesn't have any effect on the outcome of any future fight.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Losing to every guy with a legit ground game you have faced in years does matter.


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## WouldLuv2FightU (Jul 17, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> Losing to every guy with a legit ground game you have faced in years does matter.


The ground game had nothing to do with either of those losses though. He got rocked on his feet both times and got finished with strikes, and was clearly not ready to fight Cruz. Excuse or not that was a completely different fighter that night, you can't argue that because it was a year after his accident, not a year after his recovery, but his actual near fatal accident. And even if what your saying was true it still wouldn't matter. It only takes one win to change that. And the win is not gonna influenced at all by the fact that he has yet to beat a big name since Sylvia.

I dunno, I think it would make sense to say, if it goes past the first round, chances are Nog is gonna win. But that first round is gonna be all Frank, possibly even the 2nd if he's in shape for once, and he has proven many times now he can end a fight extremely quick and has really unorthadox and STRONG submissions.

I'd just be a lot more cautious about counting any fighter out based on things that don't even affect the outcome of a fight. That's just me though. Too many crazy upsets happening for me to keep doing that. Forrest didn't have any big wins for a while before facing Shogun. Now he's beaten Shogun AND Rampage in a row and holds the belt.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

See to me it does matter because I keep hearing he's back to his old self and all this stuff but I haven't seen it submitting two guys with crappy BJJ doesn't prove he is this top level fighter again.

And honestly I don't think he's that good to begin with. I don't think the best performance from Mir would be enough. His submissions aren't good enough IMO to submit Nogueira, His striking is dreadful, and he isn't a very good wrestler.

Forrest had ways to beat Shogun. Looking at the fight I thought he could outstrike Shogun and win a decision now Shogun ended up gassing and Forrest messed him up on the feet and then took control but I don't see anyway Mir wins this not that he can't but I don't think he will. If he does this for me will go up there with GSP vs Serra.


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> See to me it does matter because I keep hearing he's back to his old self and all this stuff but I haven't seen it submitting two guys with crappy BJJ doesn't prove he is this top level fighter again.
> 
> And honestly I don't think he's that good to begin with. I don't think the best performance from Mir would be enough. His submissions aren't good enough IMO to submit Nogueira, His striking is dreadful, and he isn't a very good wrestler.
> 
> Forrest had ways to beat Shogun. Looking at the fight I thought he could outstrike Shogun and win a decision now Shogun ended up gassing and Forrest messed him up on the feet and then took control but I don't see anyway Mir wins this not that he can't but I don't think he will. If he does this for me will go up there with GSP vs Serra.


Couldn't agree more. There were actually quite a few who did see Forrest defeat Shogun. 

If we say that neither can/will submit the other, whihc is pretty likely, Nog still has better striking, wrestling and cardio (not to speak about mentality). Two questions arises from here:

1. How can Mir win? Chances seem pretty slim, and

2. How the f### can Mir be 200 times the athlete Nog is!?!?


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

Mir has some very interesting and under-utilised subs, and he slaps them on you with real force. "Dynamic" and "unorthadox" are words i would use to describe Mir's ground game....i don't care what anyone says, it's very good and he's a true student of the art.

Serious question, but has Nog fought anyone recently with such a game? If not, it's not out of the question that Mir could just simply surprise Nog with something out of the ordinary. If he does, and applies it with the force we know he can....Nog may be tapping before he has a chance to counter.

I don't think Mir will win this fight either, but i can see at least one way for it to happen.


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## Racerboy44 (Jun 24, 2007)

Flak said:


> Mir has some very interesting and under-utilised subs, and he slaps them on you with real force. "Dynamic" and "unorthadox" are words i would use to describe Mir's ground game....i don't care what anyone says, it's very good and he's a true student of the art.
> 
> Serious question, but has Nog fought anyone recently with such a game? If not, it's not out of the question that Mir could just simply surprise Nog with something out of the ordinary. If he does, and applies it with the force we know he can....Nog may be tapping before he has a chance to counter.
> 
> I don't think Mir will win this fight either, but i can see at least one way for it to happen.


I completely agree. Mir has a good chance in this fight. Would I put money on him? No. But to say he has no way to win is crazy. Mir has ugly stand-up but Nog is not exactly dynamic by any stretch of the imagination. Nog is and should be the favorite but if Mir wins I would not be one bit surprised.


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## WouldLuv2FightU (Jul 17, 2006)

+Rep to the above 2 posters.

The only way Forrest was gonna win was to stuff his takedowns and outbox him for points and win a close decision. Nobody thought he would choke out Shogun and most didn't even think he would outbox him. 

What I'm trying to say is, fighters don't always fight the exact same way. There are so many factors that play into a fight. Using past fights as a "sure-fire" way to predict an outcome to a future fight is impossible. It just simply doesn't work that way, not in this case anyway. 

If we were sitting here trying to predict the outcome of say Cheick Kongo vs Nog, then it would make a little more sense to use past fights to try and predict this fight. You could say Cheick clearly has trouble with people who have good ground games and takedowns, in every single fight since he started MMA, and with Nogueira being great at both, yea chances are Nog is gonna win. But with Frank, you just have no idea. It's all speculation and opinion. 

That said Nog is clearly the favorite but I just don't see how some of you can still be so lopsided in your predictions. It seems like you woulda learned your lesson by now with all the crazy upsets.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

About subbing Traven: MMA BJJ and pure BJJ are 2 totally different things.

Last time Nog faced a great ground fighter, he beat him by UD.

Nogueira has faced guys like Werdum and Barnett, and he beat both of them (Avenging his loss to Josh), what makes you think Mir will sub the guy? I mean, seriously, dude got severely whomped by Cruz, who I love, but Cruz is not Nogueira.

Griffin vs Shogun is a bad comparison, since Forrest had better stand-up, was great on the ground and was way bigger than Shogun. Why idiots thought Shogun would easily beat him, I have no idea.

With Nog vs Mir, Nog is better in every category, except promo cutting, but that's not going to help Frank when they fight. Nog's the better striker, has better cardio, more heart, can take punishment and has a better ground game.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> +Rep to the above 2 posters.
> 
> The only way Forrest was gonna win was to stuff his takedowns and outbox him for points and win a close decision. Nobody thought he would choke out Shogun and most didn't even think he would outbox him.
> 
> ...


Saying that you don't see a way for a certain fighter to win and saying a certain fighter can't win are two completely different things. Every time I imagine how this fight will go down, I see Nog being better in every category. There is no aspect of the game where I can say "Mir has an advantage here". If Frank Mir were to win, I would be absolutely shocked. There would be no words to describe how surprised I'd be. But that doesn't mean I don't recognize the fact that this is a fight and that Mir does have a chance at winning. I'd probably say that chance is less than one percent, but it's there.


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## jeremy202 (Feb 3, 2008)

I might bet on mir.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

No one is saying Mir can't win. I just don't see it happening at all. The last time I felt like that about a fight this big and was wrong was GSP vs Serra.

Yes Mir is explosive in his submissions but so are a ton of guys. I mean Lil Nogueira is IMO more explosive and techincal then Mir.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> The ground game had nothing to do with either of those losses though. He got rocked on his feet both times and got finished with strikes, and was clearly not ready to fight Cruz. Excuse or not that was a completely different fighter that night, you can't argue that because it was a year after his accident, not a year after his recovery, but his actual near fatal accident. And even if what your saying was true it still wouldn't matter. It only takes one win to change that. And the win is not gonna influenced at all by the fact that he has yet to beat a big name since Sylvia.
> 
> I dunno, I think it would make sense to say, if it goes past the first round, chances are Nog is gonna win. But that first round is gonna be all Frank, possibly even the 2nd if he's in shape for once, and he has proven many times now he can end a fight extremely quick and has really unorthadox and STRONG submissions.
> 
> I'd just be a lot more cautious about counting any fighter out based on things that don't even affect the outcome of a fight. That's just me though. Too many crazy upsets happening for me to keep doing that. Forrest didn't have any big wins for a while before facing Shogun. Now he's beaten Shogun AND Rampage in a row and holds the belt.


Are you forgetting that Nog is impossible to finish?> Your argument is that Mir is good at finishing people really quick... cool... but it's BIG NOG bud. Mir even said it himself he has to outwork him for the whole entire fight to win


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

I'm probably going to catch some heat for this, but bare with me and hear me out.

I keep reading unequivocally that Nog has the better ground game, and i think a distinction needs to be made. Nog has beaten better guys on the ground, but i don't think anyone can fairly say that he has a better ground game (yet). You can't prove that with anecdotal evidence alone. 

There simply isn't enough evidence to support the fact that Nog beats Mir on the ground. Sure, he has more wins and has submitted top opponents, but Nog and Mir have had very different careers....with Mir basically getting cut down in his prime from the accident. Had that not happened, and Mir had stayed and defended his belt, theres no saying the quality of opponent he would have beaten. At the time, the dude was outright scary on the ground. Mir and Fedor have something in common (along with Andrei)....they're they only guys to submit Sylvia in extremely short order, and if we're talking about straight submissions, Mir was the only one of the three that did so while Big Tim had a clear head.

Mir has 11 wins with 7 subs, a high percentage of his wins. Nog has 31 wins with 19 subs, also a high percentage of his wins. Nogs resume is outright stellar, but he always wins with the same two things (armbars and triangles) with the odd anaconda or something. Mir literally beats dudes with all kinds of stuff (including shoulder locks and leg locks, something Nog just doesn't do).

Lets be real here. Mir came back and had the most terrible cardio outside of the MW division (Lutter), but it has been improving with each fight. I think the Cruz fight needs to be thrown out....we all know that wasn't Frank Mir that night. Hell, it wasn't Frank when he beat Dan either. Nog on the other hand has very good cardio. It hasn't looked as good recently, but i think the time off will have helped Nog heal and get fit again. If Mir really plans to try and outwork Nog, then i think he is in for a long night simply because i don't believe he could have improved it enough for him to do that for 5 rounds.

However, i really think that on the ground, with both guys not too tired....Franks grappling/submissions are every bit as good as Nog's, and at the least, i think he has better leg locks. "Thats ridiculous" im sure ill hear....but when you really look at it, Mir is a no bullshit legit black belt that straight up submits people; with a wide array of submissions no less. Nog is extremely good at what he does too, has better standup, and better cardio....which is why i have him as the favourite.

All that said, every time i think about this fight, (twice now) i have thought of a way for Mir to win. Nog fans shouldn't be so complacent, Mir is absolutely good enough to put Nog in danger, especially with Nog being at the back side of his career (I love the guy too, but he clearly peaked in 2004-05).

I'm really looking forward to this fight. I think it's going to be great, and I'm happy to see either guy win because i like them both. Nog, because the guy is just an outright legend of the sport. Mir, because no one is giving him a chance, and he has the opportunity to get back something that he never lost.

It's gonna be fun


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I'm just wondering and I'm sure you wil give me the generic MMA grappling vs BJJ grappling but why if Mir's submissions are so great did he do nothing against Babalu in 15 minutes when they had a grappling match?


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## itsallgood (Oct 5, 2007)

this is going to be a great fight


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> I'm just wondering and I'm sure you wil give me the generic MMA grappling vs BJJ grappling but why if Mir's submissions are so great did he do nothing against Babalu in 15 minutes when they had a grappling match?


Straw man.

But i'll bite.....because his cardio was terrible at that point and Babalu is a very accomplished grappler in his own right.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

Is there any evidence to suggest Mir's cardio has improved?


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

So In the two monts between that match and Hardonk he improved his cardio? Babalu is a lesser grappler then Nogueira.

Mir hasn't shown improved cardio since then. He is explosive but he IMO is the most overrated HW in the world.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

Kind of. He looked more in shape the last couple of fights, and has openly discussed his lack of cardio and efforts to improve it. Plus, although his last two wins ended quickly....he didn't appear gassed at all like he did against Cruz after the first minute. I don't think you can argue that a grappling match is any easier than an MMA one. IF anything, in terms of fitness, i think you need to be much fitter to grind for position that long in grappling....so i think it's a bad example. Yeah, grappling and MMA grappling are entirely different. We all know this, and so do you.

Mir can't win this on cardio though. Even if he has improved it 200%, that will only get him 3 rounds, and i think Nog is good for 5.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

See but Mir's biggest point for him winning is that he subbed Traven so if MMA grappling and BJJ are different then that win loses a lot of value.

Mir's submissions are basically over a majority of scrubs, Sylvia who admitted his sub defense sucked at that point, Traven and Pete Williams.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

I think Mir's biggest case for winning is that he looks to have continued to work on his grappling and evolved his game, while Nog has not. Does Nog even enter straight grappling matches? 

Mir lost on points to babalu, but that could have been for any number of reasons. Hell, maybe the guy just had a bad night, maybe bablu is a better grappler than MMA fighter...who knows. In the octagon though, he has serious skills, and i think this forum needs to acknowledge that. 

No one is saying Mir will win (well, im not anyway), but there ARE ways for it to theoretically happen. I think Mir will gas and Nog will win by sub or UD....but in the early rounds i think it will be close.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Mir has some solid submission skills that's it. He is dangerous to guys who don't have very good MMA grappling but his striking sucks, his wrestling as well.

And his cardio is terrible.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

Wow, coming from you thats some glowing praise right there


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## Cartheron (Sep 5, 2007)

> Ian dedicated the fight to his dad who had just passed away, the fight was held in Ian’s hometown in London England.


Ian would probably KYTFO if you said he came from London to his face. And the fact that it's a Sherdog poster is even better.  

On topic? Noguiera is gonna punch Mir in the face. A lot. Then submit him.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

> I think the Cruz fight needs to be thrown out....we all know that wasn't Frank Mir that night. Hell, it wasn't Frank when he beat Dan either.


What is this shit? 

Is every Frank Mir fan going to make excuses for every one of his losses? "Oh, that wasn't the REAL Frank Mir that got beat by Brandon Vera." How sad is it that people refer to him as the "Old" Frank Mir? Dude is becoming the next Vitor.


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## nevrsummr13 (Mar 5, 2008)

Damone said:


> What is this shit?
> 
> Is every Frank Mir fan going to make excuses for every one of his losses? "Oh, that wasn't the REAL Frank Mir that got beat by Brandon Vera." How sad is it that people refer to him as the "Old" Frank Mir? Dude is becoming the next Vitor.


I've always been a Frank Mir fan but he didnt lose those fights because of injuries or anything else...
he lost those fights for the same reason any fighter loses a fight, because he wasnt the better fighter on that night, no other reason


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I just don't buy into Frank Mir as a top HW Flak. I like Frank I think he is very fun to watch his BJJ is IMO way overrated.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

This article would be a good argument if Mir today was the same Mir back then. 

He's getting better, but he just hasn't been the same sonce the accident.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

I really hope Mir wins. The Nog worship on this forum is unruly.


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## WouldLuv2FightU (Jul 17, 2006)

Flak said:


> I'm probably going to catch some heat for this, but bare with me and hear me out.
> 
> I keep reading unequivocally that Nog has the better ground game, and i think a distinction needs to be made. Nog has beaten better guys on the ground, but i don't think anyone can fairly say that he has a better ground game (yet). You can't prove that with anecdotal evidence alone.
> 
> ...


Greatest post in the thread. raise01:


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

It's not an excuse Damone, merely a reason. He lost that fight not based on skill, but because he gassed about as horribly as ive ever seen someone gas. Stupid decision to return at that time. He came back way too early and before he was in shape, and deservedly got his arse kicked for his efforts. Probably got too cocky and thought he could finish it quick before he got tired; because he had to know he was out of shape.

It just didn't look like the Frank Mir we've all seen him be...that's all. Yeah, its a shame that we talk about the "old Mir", but i think that guy is starting to resurface. Hopefully we see him against Nog because that will give us a good fight (win or lose). If the Mir that showed up in 2007 appears though....it's gonna be a cake walk for Nog.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Whats with some folk calling Mir "Mur"? Am i missing something?


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Flak said:


> It's not an excuse Damone, merely a reason. He lost that fight not based on skill, but because he gassed about as horribly as ive ever seen someone gas. Stupid decision to return at that time. He came back way too early and before he was in shape, and deservedly got his arse kicked for his efforts. Probably got too cocky and thought he could finish it quick before he got tired; because he had to know he was out of shape.
> 
> It just didn't look like the Frank Mir we've all seen him be...that's all. Yeah, its a shame that we talk about the "old Mir", but i think that guy is starting to resurface. Hopefully we see him against Nog because that will give us a good fight (win or lose). If the Mir that showed up in 2007 appears though....it's gonna be a cake walk for Nog.


Cruz pretty much kicked the guy's ass. I really wouldn't say that Mir lost because he simply gassed and wasn't prepared. Cruz fed the guy elbows and just destroyed him. Cruz won because he was much better on the ground, not because Frank Mir's evil twin brother showed up.

In the Christison fight, it was his own fault that he dined on nothing but Del Taco in preparation for the fight. Embarrassing performance from Mir, but that has more to do with his laziness rather than the accident. Hell, Mir even said that he was lazy and wanted to eat nothing but Del Taco a while back.

I still don't believe in this resurface. He beat Hardonk (Who is a kickboxer with a shitty ground game) and Brock Lesnar (Who was 1-0 at the time and was debuting in the UFC). That doesn't tell me much, especially since Mir was getting his ass kicked by Lesnar and was saved by a gift stand-up.


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## Charles Lee Ray (May 4, 2008)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Whats with some folk calling Mir "Mur"? Am i missing something?



Thats how Brock Lesner pronounces it. :thumb02:


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

I know Mir straight up got his arse kicked against Cruz, i said as much (you are reading my entire posts right?). But to say it wouldn't have been a different story on the ground if Mir wasn't practically passing out from exhaustion is just silly. Cruz was able to dominate beacuse Mir was useless that night. 

You don't believe in the resurface and thats cool....but you don't know for sure. I have faith that Mir is getting back to his old self....but i don't know for sure either. 

I think some of my posts are being misinterpreted by some of you. I think some of you believe that i think Mir will beat Nog; i don't. I think Nog will most likely win their fight, and i don't think Mir has had enough time to bring his cardio up to 5 rounds....but i still maintain that in the early rounds, he is a dangerous fighter on the ground and i don't think he is getting enough credit for this.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, black or white. I think some of you get so hung up on your own opinions that it becomes difficult for you guys to even acknowledge the possibility that something other than what you imagine could happen. You'll disagree with that sentiment....but that's my take on a lot of posters on this board.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

wukkadb said:


> So Frank Mir used to be good in his prime, and since returning to the UFC, has done lack luster. Why would I expect him to beat Nog again?


I think the article is saying he IS in his prime. He was goo dwhen he first got into the UFC and was subbing people no problem. He got into an accident and over three fights was in terrible shape. Judging by the way Mir came into the Brock fight he's in REALLY good shape now. He's dedicated to training and he's a much smarter fighter. I think his prime is NOW not before. I've always been one to think that fighters peak around their late 20s early 30s because of the experience they gain. I doubt he'll beat Nog but I think it'll be a damn good fight. Nog's got good stand-up but he isn't known for knockin' fools out. Mir has a little bit heavier hands but from the last we saw, less than stellar stand-up. But Mir knows that too and I honestly think he's going to keep teh fight standing and try to work something in on Nog, even though I doubt that'd work. I see Nog winning it either way, but I'm saying its going to be entertaining no matter what.


@ Damone

Yeah, Mir was getting his ass handed to him by Brock. But so did Herring and so did Randy. You can't hold it against him, everyone who's fought him says he hits like a truck.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Flak said:


> It doesn't have to be all or nothing, black or white. I think some of you get so hung up on your own opinions that it becomes difficult for you guys to even acknowledge the possibility that something other than what you imagine could happen. You'll disagree with that sentiment....but that's my take on a lot of posters on this board.


True, but it's hard to actually come up with a reason as to why Mir has a shot. Nogueira is better in every category, and Mir's cardio is garbage, always has been. In order to beat Nog, you have to go 25 minutes, and I don't think Mir can go that long.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

Am I the only one who thinks Mir wasn't even that good before his accident?

He's got a couple of good wins but he's always had sub-par wrestling, weak standup and terrible cardio.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Bazza89 said:


> Am I the only one who thinks Mir wasn't even that good before his accident?
> 
> He's got a couple of good wins but he's always had sub-par wrestling, weak standup and terrible cardio.


I'm pretty much with you on this one. I just don't think he was ever really tested.

I mean he won a ton of his fights in the first round, so we never saw how bad his cardio was back then. As well, it isn't like his opponents before or after Tim Sylvia have exactly been top notch (excluding Brock who i still feel is "unproven", so to speak).


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## urbanator (Oct 15, 2006)

*I predict Frank Mir will beat Antonio "Mintauro" Nogueira*



Flak said:


> ...No one is saying Mir will win (well, im not anyway), but there ARE ways for it to theoretically happen. I think Mir will gas and Nog will win by sub or UD....but in the early rounds i think it will be close.


I was agreeing with your earlier points, but I for one would like to take it a step forward and say Frank Mir will win. How? Because his submission game is scary, he will either catch Nog or make Nog second guess himself and get caught with a hit, then get finished.

All you other guys made tons of arguments breaking down how much more experienced Nog is, points that I do take into consideration. With all the accolades Nog brings, one thing that sticks out is that he does not always finish. Mir can and will. Mir is the better fighter and will prove it.


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## NATAS (Jun 30, 2008)

> I was agreeing with your earlier points, but I for one would like to take it a step forward and say Frank Mir will win. How? Because his submission game is scary, he will either catch Nog or make Nog second guess himself and get caught with a hit, then get finished.
> 
> All you other guys made tons of arguments breaking down how much more experienced Nog is, points that I do take into consideration. With all the accolades Nog brings, one thing that sticks out is that he does not always finish. Mir can and will. Mir is the better fighter and will prove it.


You want to make a sig bet? id love to. Mir doesnt stand a chance.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Bazza89 said:


> Am I the only one who thinks Mir wasn't even that good before his accident?
> 
> He's got a couple of good wins but he's always had sub-par wrestling, weak standup and terrible cardio.


I like Mir a lot because the guy is awesome to watch but I agree.

Mir was overrated before the accident because he was the UFC champion when the division blew.

Mir is a fun submission guy with like you said sub par wrestling, weak stand up and terrible cardio.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> I like Mir a lot because the guy is awesome to watch but I agree.
> 
> Mir was overrated before the accident because he was the UFC champion when the division blew.
> 
> Mir is a fun submission guy with like you said sub par wrestling, weak stand up and terrible cardio.


Yeah it seems as though people use the accident to build him up as some HW king before he got injured but he was always the same fighter really. 

Yeah his cardio was never as bad as it was after the crash but he still gassed after 1 round against Wes Sims where he was on top for most of the round if I remember correctly.

I've always liked watching Mir but he's become seriously overrated considering his only significant win in four years is subbing a very green Lesnar who still hasn't proven he can handle a top BJJ fighter.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Yea I'm not sure if it's the fact people want Lesnar's loss to look better or the fact people want to just disagree because whenever their is a huge favorite someone has to disagree.

I mean people actually picked Irvin to beat Silva.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

Yeah I think the UFC are trying to hype Mir in order to hype Brock really cos he's not the most marketable or reliable fighter in the world with his limited standup and miniscule gas tank.

And yeah, whenever there's a big favourite in fights you get a lot of people getting behind the underdog either to brag in case they somehow pull of the upset or just to annoy people with futile arguments.

I don't think Mir's a bad fighter for the record and I think he's got a place in the UFC especially with a fairly weak HW division but IMO it defies all logic that people are picking him to beat Nog. There simply is no logical reason for it other that being a big Mir fan or like I said before just choosing the underdog in case he manages to win and you look clever.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

> I for one would like to take it a step forward and say Frank Mir will win. How? Because his submission game is scary, he will either catch Nog or make Nog second guess himself and get caught with a hit, then get finished.


You know who also has a scary sub game? Yep, Minotauro. You know who has way better striking? Yep, Minotauro.


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

Either way, you know the fight is going to the ground. I think it's going to be a very good jitz clinic for all you manhugger lovers out there.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

urbanator said:


> I was agreeing with your earlier points, but I for one would like to take it a step forward and say Frank Mir will win. How? Because his submission game is scary, he will either catch Nog or make *Nog second guess himself and get caught with a hit, then get finished*.


His submissions are cool-looking, I'll give him that, but they aren't nearly as technically sound as Nogueira's and we don't know how his submissions look after the first round. He's never won by submission after the first round.

I hope you aren't suggesting Mir is going to finish Nog with a strike. Because it looks like you are with the bolded statement. If I'm wrong, correct me.



> All you other guys made tons of arguments breaking down how much more experienced Nog is, points that I do take into consideration. With all the accolades Nog brings, one thing that sticks out is that he does not always finish. Mir can and will. Mir is the better fighter and will prove it.


So Mir is better than Nog because Nog "doesn't always finish"? That's probably the worst argument I've heard yet. When you fight the caliber of opponents Nog has, it's impossible to finish all of them. And considering 22 of his 31 wins are finishes, I'd say Nog has a pretty solid record for finishing fights. Shit, even Fedor has 7 decision wins. Is Frank Mir better than Fedor?


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Lesnar should have beaten Mir.
This tells me Nog should kill Mir.

But....

I have a weird feeling we see a different Mir this fight and a big suprise could be awaiting Nog.

Regardless......WAR MINOTAURO!


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## urbanator (Oct 15, 2006)

I recognize a prodigy when I see it. He hasn't fought that many fighters. But the ones he has, he dealt with impressively.

Do I think he is better than Nog? Yes! Why? 

With Nog, you know you get consistency, ie. solid standup, technical grapling, armbar attempts, he takes a beating and hang around til the end.

With Mir you get persistency. A guy, when he is not recovering from a motorcycle accident, is quick in his thoughts and moves from one lock to another until he has you. Although he has not had as many fights as Nog or the competition might not have been as seasoned, Mir finds ways to win.

Nog needs to be better, cardio-wise, because with his fighting style he just needs time to figure ut his opponent. Towards the end, sometimes he throws up the hail mary and takes that chance.

Mir on the other hand, does not need that much time to figure out his opponent. He finds ways to win, and has done so usually in the first round. That's why we don't see his submissions after the first round.

Can Mir win with strikes? Certainly. But let me preface that, not with strikes alone. In lieu of his grapling, that will help lead to other openings, such as strikes. e.g. Did Gonzaga have that deadly of a kick, or was Crocop weaken and distracted by the previous grappling and elbows?

After the fight, I'm sure a lot of you might be upset and look for Lesnar or Fedor as your escape from reality. But don't worry, there's plenty of room on the Mir Express.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

I think Mir will win just because i feel he has some aura around him that i dont get from Nog. I think that Mir would beat Herring alot easier then Nog did and i also think that Mir would have bit Tim Sylvia alot easiet then nog did. Its just my 2 cents i can certainly be wrong as can anyone else.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> I think Mir will win just because i feel he has some aura around him that i dont get from Nog. I think that Mir would beat Herring alot easier then Nog did and i also think that Mir would have bit Tim Sylvia alot easiet then nog did. Its just my 2 cents i can certainly be wrong as can anyone else.


Mir did beat Sylvia, h broke his arm in the first round but to be fair Big Tim did take him down for some unknown reason and has said that he had basically no sub defence then.

If you look at how quick either fighter beat Tim after it had gone to the ground then it's pretty even, not to mention that Nog hung in there with Tim standing for 2 and a half rounds when Mir would have gassed before the end of the second and gotten finished.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

urbanator said:


> I recognize a prodigy when I see it. He hasn't fought that many fighters. But the ones he has, he dealt with impressively.


Prodigy? LOL. He has no striking, cardio, or wrestling and his BJJ isn't even that spectacular. How does he qualify as a prodigy? 



> With Nog, you know you get consistency, ie. solid standup, technical grapling, armbar attempts, he takes a beating and hang around til the end.


Yes, consistency is important in a top fighter.



> With Mir you get persistency. A guy, when he is not recovering from a motorcycle accident, is quick in his thoughts and moves from one lock to another until he has you. Although he has not had as many fights as Nog or the competition might not have been as seasoned, Mir finds ways to win.


Yes, he finds ways to beat scrubs. Great.



> Nog needs to be better, cardio-wise, because with his fighting style he just needs time to figure ut his opponent. Towards the end, sometimes he throws up the hail mary and takes that chance.


The fact is, he does have better cardio. You can analyze why he needs better cardio and try and turn it against him, but the fact is, his superior cardio will end up hurting Mir.



> Mir on the other hand, does not need that much time to figure out his opponent. He finds ways to win, and has done so usually in the first round. That's why we don't see his submissions after the first round.


Every fight he has ever finished in the first round was a submission. Every fight that went past the first round, did not end in a Mir submission. We don't see him submit anyone after the first because he gets gassed. Simple as that.



> Can Mir win with strikes? Certainly. But let me preface that, not with strikes alone. In lieu of his grapling, that will help lead to other openings, such as strikes. e.g. Did Gonzaga have that deadly of a kick, or was Crocop weaken and distracted by the previous grappling and elbows?


Gonzaga had a clear advantage over Cro Cop in the grappling department, and Cro Cop did not prepare for elbows or a cage. Mir doesn't have near the same amount of power as Gonzaga and Cro Cop doesn't have as good a chin as Nog does. How will Mir end up on top of Nog? His takedowns suck.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

> With Mir you get persistency. A guy, when he is not recovering from a motorcycle accident, is quick in his thoughts and moves from one lock to another until he has you. Although he has not had as many fights as Nog or the competition might not have been as seasoned, Mir finds ways to win.


Once he gasses (Which only takes 3 minutes), he will not be looking for sub after sub. The guy is just lazy. Always has been.

Frank Mir is the most overrated sub guy right now. The UFC hype machine has convinced many people that Frank Mir is a great submission fighter. Besides Pete Williams and Tim Sylvia, who has he subbed? Roberto Traven? Look, Traven has great pure BJJ, but he fought Frank Mir in MMA. A totally different ball game.

BJ Penn's a prodigy. 

Frank Mir is not.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Damone said:


> Once he gasses (Which only takes 3 minutes), he will not be looking for sub after sub. The guy is just lazy. Always has been.
> 
> Frank Mir is the most overrated sub guy right now. The UFC hype machine has convinced many people that Frank Mir is a great submission fighter. Besides Pete Williams and Tim Sylvia, who has he subbed? Roberto Traven? Look, Traven has great pure BJJ, but he fought Frank Mir in MMA. A totally different ball game.
> 
> ...



Couldn't agree more. This is why I get annoyed with Dana White's presence in the pre-fight hype videos. He says "We're finally gonna see, who the best ground heavyweight fighter is in the world."

Rogan's also no better saying: "A fight between Minotauro Nogueira and Frank Mir is a fight between the two best heavyweight submission artists ever in the history of the UFC."


Nogueira, yes. Gonzaga is a much better ground fighter than Frank Mir, as are Fedor, Werdum, and Barnett outside of the UFC. :dunno:


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Bazza89 said:


> Mir did beat Sylvia, h broke his arm in the first round but to be fair Big Tim did take him down for some unknown reason and has said that he had basically no sub defence then.
> 
> If you look at how quick either fighter beat Tim after it had gone to the ground then it's pretty even, not to mention that Nog hung in there with Tim standing for 2 and a half rounds when Mir would have gassed before the end of the second and gotten finished.


Yea i did know that i just didnt wanna point it out because it was long ago. Well we will see coming dec 27


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## TheAbbott (Nov 25, 2008)

Mur


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

Assuming he's worked on his gas tank, i think we're gonna be in for a cool grappling match for at least 2 rounds before Nog's cardio takes over.

None of you buy it, but to say Mir doesn't have a great ground game for a heavyweight is just idiotic.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

anybody know how much Mir weighed in his fights premotorcycle accident? he looks ALOT better suited to his frame than he does now...where it looks like he's bigger, but also carrying around alot more bodyfat...

Mir weighs in around 250 now, and i swear i've seen that he used to weigh in the 230's but i'm not sure....

cuz mir don't look like this anymore


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

How long ago was TUF filmed? Anyone else catch the glimpse of Mir with his shirt off? He didn't look cut like he used to, but he did look far more defined than he did when he first returned in 2007. 

When he first came back he was just plain fat.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Flak said:


> How long ago was TUF filmed? Anyone else catch the glimpse of Mir with his shirt off? He didn't look cut like he used to, but he did look far more defined than he did when he first returned in 2007.
> 
> When he first came back he was just plain fat.


i thought he looked kinda fat on the show


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Yea he looked pretty fat to me idk.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

He's always had that pot belly thing going though along with "hubby bubby hips" (wifes description). No doubt he's still too heavy for his frame....but not jiggly like he was when he returned :laugh:


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

randyspankstito said:


> I like Mir, but Nog is going to break his arm in two.


I'm not one for bumping threads, but I feel the irony this post brings deserves it.


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