# fire Joe Silva



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

he seems to be a good scout but matchmaking does not seem to be his thing.

JDS vs Roy Nelson. that was a completely pointless fight. if Duffee-Russow taught anything is that the Homer Simpson can be used in MMA when a slower fighter lands a haymaker on the much more skilled fighter and kills the hype.

Anderson vs Maia- not only was Maia coming off a loss, he was facing Anderson for the title when Anderson had his most rediculous showing against another BJJ champion in Thales Leites. why did Anderson not good another 205 fighter in Rampage, Rashad, Thiago Silva, Randy Couture etc.?

Keith Jardine vs Matt Hamill- Jardine was coming off a loss to a similar fighter in Ryan Bader. why was he not given a striker to at least put an entertaining fight like against Seth? Keith arguably beat Forrest, Liddell, Bonnar, Vera, and Hamill, yet none of them were cut by ufc maybe except liddell.

Serra vs Trigg- you give Trigg another chance after losing to Koscheck, only to be given to another tough fighter in Serra who came off a close fight with Hughes. at least give Trigg a prospect, why make pensioners fight?

Cro Cop vs Perosh- it was a late replacement...but this is probably the biggest mismatch in UFC history. also Cro Cop didnt want to harm him due to his Croatian background...and that he looks similar to him.

GSP vs Dan Hardy- who exactly did Dan Hardy beat? he should have never gotten a titleshot, no matter how important is England for the UFC.and worst of all unlike GSP fights with Alves and Penn, he didnt even stand a single round with Hardy and didnt finish the fight.

Florian vs Gomi- bringing in a legend from Japan and putting him in one of the least exciting matchups. Guillard, Stephens, Fisher, Stout, Siver were all possibilities. but hes given a top ranked opponent and loses hype...

Petruzelli vs Romero- bringing a Kimbo slayer and a great prospect and letting one of them kill the hype 

UFC 120- come on put some fights that are worth watching...theres 2 co-main event fights and 9 preliminary fights really. its missing a main event and another 2 good fights.

those are just some fights i was disappointed with this year and their outcome was dissapointing as well just as i suspected


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

JDS vs Roy Nelson determined a title contender!:thumbsup:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> JDS vs Roy Nelson determined a title contender!:thumbsup:


Thank you kanto...get a clue bro, plus Dana doesnt have a say at all in these fight match ups....:confused05:


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well Dana can nudge Joe in the right direction!


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Trigg, Serra, and Hughes are all part of the UFC's midget wrestling team and fight each other so as not to mess up title contention.

As stated above, JDS and Nelson was for the number one contender spot.

Gomi was given Florian because he deserved such a quality opponent.

Hardy was fresh blood and doing well in the UFC and on a short list of people GSP hadn't already completely dominated.

Maia went into the championship fight after a win over Miller. Marquardt was just destroyed by Chael and Chael had a cut so he couldn't fight Anderson without a lengthy delay. I would rather a champion fight in his weight class instead of moonlighting in other weight classes so that fight didn't bother me.

I think the Joe Silva does a great job matching up fighters given the fluidity of divisions and injuries.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Well Dana can nudge Joe in the right direction!


 
I agree with you, he also can get in his head and make him rethink things...


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Like the Shogun versus Machida rematch?


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

are you serious???? JDS vs Nelson was fight of the night IMO. You really sound like you want the UFC to throw certain fighters cans just to build them up. If that is what you want go watch strikeforce. There are no easy fights in the UFC. You just sound like you are complaining your fighters had to fight top guys. Kinda ridiculous.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

Cant say I agree with most of your post, only a few points in there that I think holds any substance

JDS vs Roy Nelson > what was JDS supposed to do while he waited for Cain to have his title shot, given it was an easy match for JDS but at least it was a fight in the mean time while JDS was put in line for his title shot.

Anderson vs Maia > Maia was not coming off a loss he was coming off a win over Dan Miller, I was not as impressed with his decision victory of Miller as some claimed to be however Maia did have a good UFC record of 5 or 6 wins to only 1 loss in the UFC, his one loss been a very fast KO at the hands of Nate Marq which was to fast a KO to really prove much about his skills since a quick KO is just one of those things in MMA that can just happen to anyone, so looking at it on paper Maia did maybe deserve a shot considering everyone else in the MW division has suffered similar defeats at the hands of different opponents.

Keith Jardine vs Matt Hamill > kind of a lame fight on paper, even tho it did prove to be an entertaining fight, I think both fighters have gone as far as they where going to go in the UFC but the UFC decided to pair them up and give one of them another shot at a run, was ranked to high on the card tho as the co-main event.

Serra vs Trigg > Kind of like the Hamill/Jardine fight both these guys careers are on the fall but at least the UFC gave then a chance to fight for the chance to try to make a coemback so this was not a bad match up to make imo

Cro Cop vs Perosh > with 2 days notice and when you are at the other side of the world, you have to take what you can get.

GSP vs Hardy > at least it was not another title rematch, I dont know about you but I dont want to see the same guys fight for the title over and over again, and that was really the only other option the UFC had in the WW divison, Fitch is arguably No.1contender and still could loose to GSP time and time again yet beat everyone else, so what you want to see GSP vs Fitch over and over because its the 1st and 2nd best in the division, or many we should just let GSP sit on his ass and wait for Fitch to clear all the other candidates 
like Hardy, and wait for fitch again.

Florian vs Gomi > Great match up, I loved this fight from the moment I say it announced, way i see it if you a true fan you really dont give a shit about the hype and a fighters so called "stock value", instead yo ujust want to see good fights and this had good fight written all over it and did not disappoint, Gomi is a proven ex-champion what would have been the point in making him run the ranks through some prelim opponents just to feed his stats, **** the causal fans if they dont want to see 2 top contenders go at it just in case it destroys someones hype, in fact fcuk hype anyone in the know knows that Gomi has the potential to 
do well in the UFC even if he does get subbed by Florian

Petruzelli vs Romero > again who cares about the hype, especially if that hype is gained via a win over Kimbo, hype does not make yo ua better fighter, on paper these guys where fairly even matched was not really so bad to let them face each other and as a result a good fight was the outcome.

UFC 120, well you right there this card has little appeal on paper to the casual fan, is it a free card for US fans? because if not I cant imagine many US fan dishing out for it, but seriously I willing to bet that this card turns out to be a great event just like 110 did.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah that is definately true, there are no easy fights in the UFC!:thumbsup:


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## kay_o_ken (Jan 26, 2009)

homer simpson DID become a professional fighter at one point, except he was a boxer, i always lol'd at that one guy from that episode whos nickname was "im fighting for half a sandwich"


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

So let me get this right. You don't agree with 6 or 7 of his fights that he has made? What about the other 200 or so excellent fights, or at least on paper, fights he made?

Sometimes fights have to be setup that don't make sense just to keep fighters active and in peoples minds. Plus I really don't agree with you on any of the fights you picked, for each of those fights I think the purpose was pretty clear.


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## kgilstrap (Dec 3, 2006)

I gotta agree with Killershark and cdtcpl, I haven't liked ALL of his matchups, but the MAJORITY of them are spot on. And to be honest, on a good majority of the fights I'm not too stoked about end up being the best ones.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

kgilstrap said:


> I gotta agree with Killershark and cdtcpl, I haven't liked ALL of his matchups, but the MAJORITY of them are spot on. And to be honest, on a good majority of the fights I'm not too stoked about end up being the best ones.


Some of the most non-hyped cards as of late have had epic fight after fight!


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

Mike28 said:


> are you serious???? JDS vs Nelson was fight of the night IMO. You really sound like you want the UFC to throw certain fighters cans just to build them up. If that is what you want go watch strikeforce. There are no easy fights in the UFC. You just sound like you are complaining your fighters had to fight top guys. Kinda ridiculous.


beatdown of the night?
JDS vs Nelson was for title shot thats not my point. what did JDS gain from this fight? anything but a KO from JDS would drop his stock,and his stock did drop.I will give this fight a pass though because Nelson put up a fight, and had some good striking. 

Anderson Silva vs Maia and GSP vs Hardy are complete facepalms on whoever put them together. Anderson should have fought at 205 instead, and Hardy wasnt even top 10 (Kampmann or Paulo Thiago are better fighters). Dana White himself walked out on the Anderson-Maia fight it was so bad and gave his manager the belt. one of the judges ruled it a draw.

Trigg and Jardine are long time veterans and should have been used against a prospect.

there were also horrible matches in previous years
Cote-Silva after cote had a questionable win against a smaller almeida
Leites-Silva after Leites beat Marquardt by 2 penalty points
Okami-Franklin when Okami should have gotten a title shot against Anderson
Quarry-Starnes
Cro Cop vs Sanchez and Gonzaga. Couture picked Gonzaga over Cro Cop by sub. Cro Cop vs Couture would have been huge, unlike Gonzaga vs Couture. was huge upset though
etc

even look at those matchups that are coming up
Penn-Edgar 2 (why immediate rematch?)
Maia vs Miranda (good grappling match but again huge experience difference)
Mir-Nogueira 2 (what did Nog do for rematch? i know hes one of the GOAT but let him win some first)
Hathaway vs Pyle (huge stepdown from Diego fight)
Diego vs Paulo Thiago (neither guy can catch a break)


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## kgilstrap (Dec 3, 2006)

UFC86 said:


> even look at those matchups that are coming up
> Penn-Edgar 2 (why immediate rematch?)
> Maia vs Miranda (good grappling match but again huge experience difference)
> Mir-Nogueira 2 (what did Nog do for rematch? i know hes one of the GOAT but let him win some first)
> ...


Penn and Edggar - fight could have gone either way and BJ has been more than just VERY dominate at lightweight.

Maia and Miranda - you said it yourself, its going to be a beautiful grappling showcase...if it goes there. We have all seen what happens when you put 2 wrestler or 2 bjj guys in with each other, they usually stand and trade. Could be the confidence booster Maia needs in his standup to get to the next level.

Mir and Nog - Nog had a staph infection and had a great showing against Couture. He is now coming off the loss to Cain and Mir is coming off his losses to Carwin and Brock. Mir and Nog are both fighting to see who's still going to be in reach of making a climb back.

Hathaway and Pyle - I agree with you that it's a stepdown, but I am sure the UFC sees his potential and are going to give him slowly increasingly hard, well matched fights.

Diego and Thiago - I don't seee the problem here, Diego needs to get back into winning ways at 170 and Thiago wants to beat a notable opponent. Should be an exciting matchup, both guys like to trade.


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## xtremefan (Aug 13, 2010)

are you for real??
how can you call any of BJ Penns' fights CO-MAINEVENT??
the guy is a total monster! I don't know if you watched the last fight with Edger or not but it was close (BJ was on an off night) and i cant wait for the rematch! :confused03:


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

xtremefan said:


> are you for real??
> how can you call any of BJ Penns' fights CO-MAINEVENT??
> the guy is a total monster! I don't know if you watched the last fight with Edger or not but it was close (BJ was on an off night) and i cant wait for the rematch! :confused03:


i said ufc 120. youre confused with 118.
he lost by unanimous decision. they could have made Penn-Gomi 2, Penn-Guillard, Penn-Fisher. would all been great striking matches if Penn kept it standing though Penn would be heavy favorite, while Edgar would have fought Maynard rematch. so many better matchups i can think of......


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

For a person who consulted for an MMA show before J. Silva does a PHENOMENAL job. One show is hectic as is, but for him to be able to do this on a regular basis with all the last minute injury replacements to boot is a Herculean task. Sure some fights are odd; JDS vs Roy, Brillz vs Lil Nog, but guess what they turned out to be FOTN material which is insane cuz none of us would have been able to figure it out. 

J. Silva does his homework folks. A man of his position has to constantly view fight history, fight tapes, and figure out how the fight will pan out. It's also a group effort, but he's the man behind the scene that puts on the show for us. 

But let me tell you something. It's US...the FANS...the MASSES who control it. If we want a fight we drum up the forum threads and trust me they'll hear about it. 

IE: Anderson Silva vs GSP
Anderson Silva vs Shogun Rua

Alistair Overeem vs Cain vs JDS vs Brock vs Pat Berry

maybe down the line "The Last Emperor"


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## KEYZER-SOZE (Jul 31, 2010)

gotta love the half hearted troll attempt of the op


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

when JDS vs Nelson was announced i had this in mind:JDS knocks him out, or Nelson subs him. either way a top contender is lost. they did the same with Thiago Silva vs Machida and were going to do Carwin vs Cain. they smartened up and gave separate title shots for Carwin and Cain. but this is the point: their system is messed up. they copy the boxing model and yet cant figure out they need to keep their contenders WINNING.

BJ Penn is getting a rematch with Edgar, even though it ruins so many good matchups that will never happen,and Rampage did not get a title rematch when his fight was just as close. 

and all those that disagree tell me that Anderson vs Maia and GSP vs Hardy were good on paper or in actuality....you cant disagree something/somebody gotta go


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## GriffinFanKY (Oct 22, 2007)

Talking about Hathaways fight it was originally Stun Gun vs Hathaway which is a great battle of Welterweight prospects but injuries affected it And Joe Silva 99 percent of the time does a great job so


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

GriffinFanKY said:


> Talking about Hathaways fight it was originally Stun Gun vs Hathaway which is a great battle of Welterweight prospects but injuries affected it And Joe Silva 99 percent of the time does a great job so


yes that is true Hathaway vs DHK was a much better matchup so this is better.i will also give some slack on Cro Cop vs Perosh and JDS vs Nelson

what i refuse to accept is Anderson vs Maia and GSP vs Hardy, and they had plenty of better opponents to pick for them.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Who was a better opponent for GSP at the time then? Hardy was 4-0 in the UFC and had just beaten the much hyped Mike Swick who was on a great run of wins himself. I think it was a much better idea to throw Hardy in than give someone like Fitch another title shot after some fairly unimpressive performances against Pierce and Gono; or Koscheck who was 3-2 in his 5 previous prior to 111, with those wins coming against Yoshida, Trigg and Johnson. Real title contenders those 3. Hardy was on a good runs of wins, allowed for some good marketing, hype and entertainment in the Primetime shows and the UFC have been wanting to give a Brit a title shot for a little while, to boost the popularity over here.

Then for Maia-Silva, who else was available at the time to fight Anderson that deserved a shot then? Anderson was supposed to be fighting Vitor Belfort on that card, but he pulled out due to injury. The UFC tried to get Chael Sonnen in, but he hadn't recovered from the Marquardt fight; so really, Maia was the only top contender available. Maia also provided a good amount of marketability for that card too. The Abu Dhabi audience love grappling, and Maia is one of the best grapplers in the world, and if he had got Anderson to the ground it could have been game over. It's not like Maia had no chance of winning the fight, he just couldn't secure a takedown.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah Maia was a replacement and thankfully a legit contender!


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> when JDS vs Nelson was announced i had this in mind:JDS knocks him out, or Nelson subs him. either way a top contender is lost. they did the same with Thiago Silva vs Machida and were going to do Carwin vs Cain. they smartened up and gave separate title shots for Carwin and Cain. but this is the point: their system is messed up. they copy the boxing model and yet cant figure out they need to keep their contenders WINNING.


What are you kidding, so is the point of been a champion not been to eliminate the other contenders in the division and earn you title shot, then is it not the job of the UFC or whatever organisation to keep bring in new talent to keep pushing there way up and create new ranks to hopefully one day win the right to fight for the title.

No sorry I disagree with your idea of stat padding its false and creates fails hype and believe me the UFC is guilty of this way to much in the past, its something they need to move away from in fact else seriously one day people will begin to see and they will lose out. The last think I would like to see is another unproven champion like Brock, that guy needs to defend his title twice more before I take him seriously as a champ else he will go down in history as a marketing ploy who never deserved to hold the belt, the concept of beating the champ to be the champ fails when you bring a 46/47 year old champion out of retirement and have him fight outside his natural weight class to manufacture a new champ, and what you are suggesting here is no different.

And besides Nelson was never really a true contender, there are some fun fights or the guy but he was always going to get his ass handed to him once they give him some top challenges, all he has is a punches chance against most fighters in the UFC, I think most of the division would beat him even going as low even as the likes of Gonzaga who I dont rate much at all even.



UFC86 said:


> BJ Penn is getting a rematch with Edgar, even though it ruins so many good matchups that will never happen,and Rampage did not get a title rematch when his fight was just as close.


I dont like the rubber match ether I have to admit, but I can see why this fight is on the cards, if Edgar had finished Penn then I dont think we would be seeing a rematch at least not straight away, but even tho I agree with the decision, it was a very close fight and I can see why some feel that Penn even should have won that fight, so the rematch will clear the dispute, but still I personally dont like it ether, but its not as if they can please everyone every time with every fight so I guess we will have to just accept this as one of those fights that maybe the majority wanted to see but we did not.



UFC86 said:


> and all those that disagree tell me that Anderson vs Maia and GSP vs Hardy were good on paper or in actuality....you cant disagree something/somebody gotta go


to be fair, if you could go back and find any post I made on the subject before the Hardy or Maia fights you would see that I far from fancied ethers chances, and they did turn out to be one sided fights, but then so was Penn vs Sanchez and you could not argue that Sanchez did not deserve his shot.

If you had argued against these fights before the event your argument could have held more weight because its easy to look back on a fight and say, that was one sided maybe the guy never deserved to be in the same cage in the first place, but given the circumstances in each division, the WW division where GSP had already eliminated the top contenders and the MW division where everyone had some black mark against them that kind gave some argument to why they did not deserve a shot, then I don't think you can argue there is much fault in the decision the UFC made when giving out the title shots they did.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

A rubber match is match #3 when each fighter has won one of the two previous fights.


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## SlapYaFaceSon (Jul 18, 2009)

I agree fire him, he barely beat Sonnen. If Silva performs like that again, I say fire him.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

UFC86 said:


> yes that is true Hathaway vs DHK was a much better matchup so this is better.i will also give some slack on Cro Cop vs Perosh and JDS vs Nelson
> 
> *what i refuse to accept is Anderson vs Maia and GSP vs Hardy, and they had plenty of better opponents to pick for them.*


Ummmmm if i'm not mistaken GSP and Silva had already beaten the better opponents? What do you want to see Fitch Vs GSP and Silva Vs Marquardt 10 times in a row cos they are the best contenders? You'd make a great matchmaker!!


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Thelegend said:


> please let this troll thread die folks....please. and when i say die i mean don't post in it....i beg you. i know the ts has a ton of holes in it that you want to respond to but restraint is the better part of valor.
> 
> edit:


Let it die now...


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> Who was a better opponent for GSP at the time then? Hardy was 4-0 in the UFC and had just beaten the much hyped Mike Swick who was on a great run of wins himself. I think it was a much better idea to throw Hardy in than give someone like Fitch another title shot after some fairly unimpressive performances against Pierce and Gono; or Koscheck who was 3-2 in his 5 previous prior to 111, with those wins coming against Yoshida, Trigg and Johnson. Real title contenders those 3. Hardy was on a good runs of wins, allowed for some good marketing, hype and entertainment in the Primetime shows and the UFC have been wanting to give a Brit a title shot for a little while, to boost the popularity over here.
> 
> Then for Maia-Silva, who else was available at the time to fight Anderson that deserved a shot then? Anderson was supposed to be fighting Vitor Belfort on that card, but he pulled out due to injury. The UFC tried to get Chael Sonnen in, but he hadn't recovered from the Marquardt fight; so really, Maia was the only top contender available. Maia also provided a good amount of marketability for that card too. The Abu Dhabi audience love grappling, and Maia is one of the best grapplers in the world, and if he had got Anderson to the ground it could have been game over. It's not like Maia had no chance of winning the fight, he just couldn't secure a takedown.


for GSP:
Dan Hardy- beat Gono (cut by UFC) Marcus Davis (barely gatekeeper who arguably won the fight) Mike Swick (not doing well in WW definetly not top 10)Rory markham (???)
Paulo Thiago-beat Koscheck and Swick (who was Hardy's best opponent but Thiago finished him) and volkmann, and even though was 3-1 was against much better competition and much better record.gave a fight to fitch as well and was good both striking and grappling(unlike hardy)
but thats not the point either the point is dan hardy is a number of leagues below GSP and completely untested.

for Anderson Silva:
Damian Maia- 1-1 in last 2 fights getting ko'd by marquardt and beating dan miller...also stylistically same as leites.
Keith Jardine @205- always comes to strike and rarely uses grappling
Luiz Cane @205- was coming off a loss to Rogerio but was considered a big prospect in the weightclass
Cyrille Diabate @205- was making his debut in the ufc, arguably the best striker at the weight class
Thiago [email protected] was coming off a loss to Rashad would have been a good match

easy matchmaking. fire him.

and matching unknown newcomers with top 5 fighters is completely rediculous

Houston Alexander vs Keith Jardine- Jardine tko'd Forrest while the champion Liddell tko'd Ortiz, making Jardine the #1 contender. following that he faced a complete unknown in Houston Alexander making his debut, and got ktfo in the first round. completely bumped Jardine off the rankings to the point that his win over Liddell in his next fight was overshadowed by the loss and kept jardine off the top 10.

JDS vs Werdum- Werdum came off wins against Gonzaga and Vera and was the #1 contender to Nogeuira's title at Couture's absence. he was such an undisputed contender that when the title fight did not occur everyone was saying its because there was never two brazilians in a title fight in the ufc. the knockout by unknown JDS made the UFC offer him a paycut and eventually released Werdum (who went undefeated since beating Antonio Silva and Fedor).JDS is on a 6 fight winning streak in the UFC and is challenging for the title.

Paulo Thiago vs Koscheck- Kos was one of the top contenders for the title losing only to GSP and Alves and wanted to fight more often. he was given unknown paulo thiago who won all his fights by submission. kos got cut by an uppercaught.unlike Werdum and Jardine though it did not drop Koscheck's stock and hes fighting for the title while thiago was left with the tougher opponents.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

rediculous
bluediculous
greendiculous
yellowdiculous..... ridiculous!


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## Kado (Apr 18, 2010)

If match making sucks, why have the last few events been awesome?


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

hkado said:


> If match making sucks, why have the last few events been awesome?


If it was up to the OP it would look like this:

UFC 120:

GSP V Fitch
Brock V Cain
Silva V Belfort
Penn V Florian
Rua V Machida

UFC 121:

(repeat 120)

UFC 122:

(repeat 121)

UFC 123:

(repeat 122)


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## nni (Jul 28, 2010)

Man, you gotta admire the effort people make to troll. It takes some skill.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

edlavis88 said:


> If it was up to the OP it would look like this:
> 
> UFC 120:
> 
> ...


since big nog is out of his fight with Mir, why not move Mir to 120 to face cro cop, along with Mark Hunt. match Mcorkle with Browne and Nedkov vs cantwell and move them to anoter card.

do something like this
Main Event
Cro Cop vs Mir
Hunt vs Kongo
Bisping vs Akiyama
Hardy vs Condit
Diabate vs Gustaffson

Preliminary
Hathaway vs Claude Patrick
Wilks vs Pyle
Broughton vs Vinicius
Warburton vs Fisher
Mcsweeney vs Blackledge
Sass vs Holst


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

This would be an interesting card if it could be put together!:thumbsup:


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> for GSP:
> Dan Hardy- beat Gono (cut by UFC) Marcus Davis (barely gatekeeper who arguably won the fight) Mike Swick (not doing well in WW definetly not top 10)Rory markham (???)
> Paulo Thiago-beat Koscheck and Swick (who was Hardy's best opponent but Thiago finished him) and volkmann, and even though was 3-1 was against much better competition and much better record.gave a fight to fitch as well and was good both striking and grappling(unlike hardy)
> but thats not the point either the point is dan hardy is a number of leagues below GSP and completely untested.
> ...


dam you really need to start getting your fact right if you going to put up a good argument, so you think Paulo Thiago would have been a better opponent for GSP and was more worthy of a title shot?

Well know this before you make that statement, Hardy won his title shot at UFC 105 with his 4th straight wins in the UFC against Swick, on that date Paulo Thiago had a UFC record of 1/1 and was just coming off a loss to Fitch, then at UFC 116 beat Jacob Volkmann, it was not then until the following year at UFC 109 that he beat Swick long after the cards for UFC 111 had been finalised and Hardy's title shot had been set in place.

So what I really want to know is how the fcuk you think that Thiago was more worthy of a title shot, even now if we go into a make belife world and forget all the dates leading to the time that Hardy's title shot was given, how is Thiago more worthy of a title shot following his win against Swick, and taking out of the equation his more recent loss to Kampmann, so after Thiago beat Swick his UFC record was 3 wins and 1 loss, yet you think he was more worthy of a title shot even tho Hardys record was 4 wins 0 losses, where is your logic in this theory?


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah Thiago needs some more wins under his belt before getting a title shot!:thumbsup:


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

KillerShark1985 said:


> dam you really need to start getting your fact right if you going to put up a good argument, so you think Paulo Thiago would have been a better opponent for GSP and was more worthy of a title shot?
> 
> Well know this before you make that statement, Hardy won his title shot at UFC 105 with his 4th straight wins in the UFC against Swick, on that date Paulo Thiago had a UFC record of 1/1 and was just coming off a loss to Fitch, then at UFC 116 beat Jacob Volkmann, it was not then until the following year at UFC 109 that he beat Swick long after the cards for UFC 111 had been finalised and Hardy's title shot had been set in place.
> 
> So what I really want to know is how the fcuk you think that Thiago was more worthy of a title shot, even now if we go into a make belife world and forget all the dates leading to the time that Hardy's title shot was given, how is Thiago more worthy of a title shot following his win against Swick, and taking out of the equation his more recent loss to Kampmann, so after Thiago beat Swick his UFC record was 3 wins and 1 loss, yet you think he was more worthy of a title shot even tho Hardys record was 4 wins 0 losses, where is your logic in this theory?


Logic? I don't need no stink'n Logic!


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

KillerShark1985 said:


> dam you really need to start getting your fact right if you going to put up a good argument, so you think Paulo Thiago would have been a better opponent for GSP and was more worthy of a title shot?
> 
> Well know this before you make that statement, *Hardy won his title shot at UFC 105* with his 4th straight wins in the UFC against Swick, on that date Paulo Thiago had a UFC record of 1/1 and was just coming off a loss to Fitch, then at UFC 116 beat Jacob Volkmann, it was not then until the following year at UFC 109 that he beat Swick long after the cards for UFC 111 had been finalised and Hardy's title shot had been set in place.
> 
> So what I really want to know is how the fcuk you think that Thiago was more worthy of a title shot, even now if we go into a make belife world and forget all the dates leading to the time that Hardy's title shot was given, how is Thiago more worthy of a title shot following his win against Swick, and taking out of the equation his more recent loss to Kampmann, so after Thiago beat Swick his UFC record was 3 wins and 1 loss, yet you think he was more worthy of a title shot even tho Hardys record was 4 wins 0 losses, where is your logic in this theory?


i didnt know someone can "win" a title shot...i thought the ufc decides who fights for the title.
i learn something new every day

edit: and yes thiago's resume was more impressive
hardy won arguable decisions over gono and marcus davis (both mere gatekeepers), beat rory markham (who isnt even ufc level) and mike swick (who also did not succeed in ww)
paulo thiago knocked out koscheck who was top 4, had a close fight with fitch who was coming off a title match, finished mike swick (unlike hardy) and jacob volkmann who still fights for ufc. also his record was 13-1 while hardy 23-6....


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well more often there have been set ups for title shots!:thumbsup:


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Well more often there have been set ups for title shots!:thumbsup:


Yea exactly, Swick vs Hardy was one of those situations, the winner of that fight was garunteed a title shot, why do you think GSP travelled out to England to speak to the winner in the cage after the fight.

Florian vs Maynard is the next situation where the winner is garunteed a title shot, Nelson vs JDS was the last, these fights happen all the time at near every event.



UFC86 said:


> i didnt know someone can "win" a title shot...i thought the ufc decides who fights for the title.
> i learn something new every day
> 
> edit: and yes thiago's resume was more impressive
> ...


Which means Hardy had more fight experience and near twice as many wins, as for stats, if you was to look at the last 14 fights of both fighters up to and including beating Swick then they where both 13 wins 1 loss, but who gives a sh1t about fights that happened 4 or 5 years ago, or even 2 or 3 years ago, is a fighter not allowed to improve over that amount of time, is current form within say the last 1 or 2 years not more important do define a fighters ability, or if a fighter looses more fights years ago and comes good does that not count for anything and would you still hold there past losses against them ever getting a title shot, besides 23/6 is a really good record, lets see if Thiago can boast such an impressive record after 29 fights.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

Isn't GSP committed to TUF then to fight the other Coach?


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> he seems to be a good scout but matchmaking does not seem to be his thing.
> 
> JDS vs Roy Nelson. that was a completely pointless fight. if Duffee-Russow taught anything is that the Homer Simpson can be used in MMA when a slower fighter lands a haymaker on the much more skilled fighter and kills the hype.
> 
> ...



I agree with most of what you said. I think UFC needs to put more thought into their match making process. There are so many baffling and unnecessary match ups, it amazes me that no one in the Zuffa chain of command realizes it.

I'll give you an example Rampage vs Machida. I know its an interesting fight but I think its somewhat bad. both of these guys are top contenders and I see them being that way for at least the next 2 years. They are both coming of high profile losses and by matching them up you are ensuring that one of them will drop 2 fights in a row and thats not a good thing. 

Theres no secret i'm a rampage fan and I think he can handle Machida, but even Machida losing 2 in a row is not good business. I would rather they both fight different people, that way at least one of them is not faced with a guaranteed 2nd loss in a row.

I also agree with the Gomi vs Florian being a bad one, so was Jardine vs Hamill. There are countless other worthless match ups out there. I hope it changes with time.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

vilify said:


> I agree with most of what you said. I think UFC needs to put more thought into their match making process. There are so many baffling and unnecessary match ups, it amazes me that no one in the Zuffa chain of command realizes it.
> 
> I'll give you an example Rampage vs Machida. I know its an interesting fight but I think its somewhat bad. both of these guys are top contenders and I see them being that way for at least the next 2 years. They are both coming of high profile losses and by matching them up you are ensuring that one of them will drop 2 fights in a row and thats not a good thing.
> 
> ...


All this is just a long winded way of saying you wish the UFC let fighters pad their records! 
It's a tough world being at the top of a division in the UFC, get over it.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah look at Brock, Shogun, Silva, GSP and Edgar; everyone is after them for what they have!


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## Hellboy (Mar 15, 2008)

JDS - Mir should have been made.


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## Ameicanista (Jul 22, 2010)

this is stupid!!


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

edlavis88 said:


> All this is just a long winded way of saying you wish the UFC let fighters pad their records!
> It's a tough world being at the top of a division in the UFC, get over it.


No I wont call it padding records but if you want to call it that, you must admit they do it for *some* fighters. 

-Forest got to fight Tito again
-Bisping gets kang after being KO'd by hendo and gets miller after losing to wandy.(notice how he's not fighting elite guys back to back)
-Hughes gets to fight gracies 
-Randy gets to fight coleman and is able to move up the ladder without fighting top LHW's


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## GriffinFanKY (Oct 22, 2007)

The reason the Tito-Forrest went down is that it was supposed to be Coleman vs Tito and Coleman got hurt so Silva replaced him with Forrest b/c it was a marketable fight and their first fight was good but controversial and saying that Joe Silva should be fired is absolutely dumb he for the most part makes great cards but injuries happen and cards get affected by it 106-108 are all examples.And really cant find a card that I totally dont wanna see even 119 and 120 have fights I wanna see.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

these are the matches that should be made next:


winner of Shields-Kampmann vs winner of GSP-Koscheck shot
Hughes vs Fitch- similar styles, possible title shot
Rashad Evans vs winner of Rogerio-Bader for interim belt
okami vs winner of marquardt-palhares for title shot
nate diaz-marcus davis vs serra-lytle
gomi vs winner of guillard-stephens
roy nelson vs big nog
guida vs winner of tibau-miller


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

UFC86 said:


> these are the matches that should be made next:
> 
> 
> winner of Shields-Kampmann vs winner of GSP-Koscheck shot
> ...


This has risked ruining any point you were trying to make! UFC should do away with interim belts unless in EXTREME circustances. A fighter being out for 6 months is not an extreme circustance.

I like Nate/Davis vs Serra/Lytle - that would be f'ing fantastic. Ditto with Gomi vs Guillard/Stephens (These are the fights Gomi should have had when he got to the UFC not just fed to Florian!)
Personally i'd like to see what you've said at MW but i think the UFC will go with Palhares/Marquardt getting the next shot after Vitor and then Chael will fight either Okami or Akiyama/Bisping for the next one after that.


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## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

Epic fail.

That is what this thread is.

Joe Silva is the best matchmaker in the business.

Get a clue.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

edlavis88 said:


> This has risked ruining any point you were trying to make! UFC should do away with interim belts unless in EXTREME circustances. A fighter being out for 6 months is not an extreme circustance.
> 
> I like Nate/Davis vs Serra/Lytle - that would be f'ing fantastic. Ditto with Gomi vs Guillard/Stephens (These are the fights Gomi should have had when he got to the UFC not just fed to Florian!)
> Personally i'd like to see what you've said at MW but i think the UFC will go with Palhares/Marquardt getting the next shot after Vitor and then Chael will fight either Okami or Akiyama/Bisping for the next one after that.


well it is an extreme situation. its similar to how Lesnar was out and Carwin fought mir and when couture was out mir fought nogueira. also it gives some interesting matchups as Rogerio/Bader/Rashad/Shogun could be matched up in any way for an interesting fight.

at mw you got it completely wrong. both palhares and marquardt could not get a good streak going (palhares lost to hendo and marquardt lost to sonnen) so i expect another fight, preferably against okami who is of similar style and deserves a shot. sonnen should not be thrown into the mix coming off a loss so fast especially against okami who he beat a few fights ago. akiyama/bisping are not even top 10.

this is how i see it:
Vitor vs Anderson next title shot
okami vs winner of marquardt/okami for next shot
Wanderlei vs Leben for possible shot after that (optional)
bisping/akiyama vs cote or sonnen (there was trash talk already)
all other middleweights are in the wings miles away from being contenders


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

and now Sonnen is reported to rematch Anderson....

way to go joe silva keep up the good work /sarcasm

vitor belfort deserves it way more. he won his last few fights by KO including over former top 5 Rich Franklin and Matt Lindland. also would be a much better fight. sonnen lost the fight with no controversy. Cote deserved an immediate rematch much more then sonnen....


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> and now Sonnen is reported to rematch Anderson....
> 
> way to go Joe Silva keep up the good work /sarcasm
> 
> Vito belfort deserves it way more. he won his last few fights by KO including over former top 5 Rich Franklin and Matt Lindland. also would be a much better fight. sonnen lost the fight with no controversy. Cote deserved an immediate rematch much more then sonnen....


That´s not Joe Silva work, that´s Dana really anxious to get that belt out of Silva waist.

Anyway, let the thread die, it´s becoming a monologe...


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

KillerShark1985 said:


> Cant say I agree with most of your post, only a few points in there that I think holds any substance
> 
> JDS vs Roy Nelson > what was JDS supposed to do while he waited for Cain to have his title shot, given it was an easy match for JDS but at least it was a fight in the mean time while JDS was put in line for his title shot.
> 
> ...


I laughed so hard at this.

OP fails.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Since when did Petruzelli take steriods?


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

AmdM said:


> That´s not Joe Silva work, that´s Dana really anxious to get that belt out of Silva waist.
> 
> Anyway, let the thread die, it´s becoming a monologe...


the last 3 replies were made by different people so no it is not a monologue.

also i want to say FIRE MIKE GOLBERG. hate/flame/red/whatever. from "the little eagle soars again" to "if his name was johnson the dean of mean would not make sense" to yelling "it is all over" when a fighter is clearly in a coma. no mike its not all over, he has to go to the hospital, get checked out, and maybe stay a day or two. 

and when seth took steroids i dont know, i doubt he took them


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

How can you fire Mike Goldberg with,"And here we go!"?


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> and now Sonnen is reported to rematch Anderson....
> 
> way to go joe silva keep up the good work /sarcasm
> 
> vitor belfort deserves it way more. he won his last few fights by KO including over former top 5 Rich Franklin and Matt Lindland. also would be a much better fight. sonnen lost the fight with no controversy. Cote deserved an immediate rematch much more then sonnen....


Vitor belfort who has no wins at MW in the UFC, deserves a MW title shot? Cote did no offensive damage to Silva at all. Sonnen dominated him and pounded him for 4.5 rounds. Those fights aren't even comparable.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Vitor belfort who has no wins at MW in the UFC, deserves a MW title shot? Cote did no offensive damage to Silva at all. Sonnen dominated him and pounded him for 4.5 rounds. Those fights aren't even comparable.


Randy Couture had no fights at 205 when he challenged liddell for the title, and he still beat him.and then he went back to heavyweight and beat tim sylvia.

while i agree that sonnen did much more damage and was much closer to winning then sonnen, the ending of the fight (which is the most important) had sonnen being subed while cote just twisted his leg on himself.

my point is that Belfort would be a much better challenge then sonnen. might as well give carwin an immediate rematch since the complete asswhooping he gave Lesnar in the first round before getting "lactic acid"

p.s. after mike says "and here we go" he says "this match is brought to you by...." while someone is getting dropped


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Like I said I think Belfort and Sonnen should fight while Silva is on the mend!:thumbsup:


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> Randy Couture had no fights at 205 when he challenged liddell for the title, and he still beat him.and then he went back to heavyweight and beat tim sylvia.
> 
> while i agree that sonnen did much more damage and was much closer to winning then sonnen, the ending of the fight (which is the most important) had sonnen being subed while cote just twisted his leg on himself.
> 
> ...


Obviously the UFC had to do different things when they were struggling. Now that they have a large roster things are different. Cote never even laid a hand on Silva, why would he deserve a rematch. I also don't agree that Belfort is a bigger challenge. It's striker vs striker. Silva's most susceptible to a wrestler. Carwin won one round, that doesn't even compared to winning 4 1/2.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Obviously the UFC had to do different things when they were struggling. Now that they have a large roster things are different. Cote never even laid a hand on Silva, why would he deserve a rematch. I also don't agree that Belfort is a bigger challenge. It's striker vs striker. Silva's most susceptible to a wrestler. Carwin won one round, that doesn't even compared to winning 4 1/2.


it is undisputed sonnen gave silva his toughest test. what the difference is that we had a finish in the sonnen fight. there was no finish in the cote fight.

i think sonnen needs to pick up at least a victory before rematching Silva. also belfort and okami should each get a shot and even dana white said that (and yet they are fighting each other for the next shot, go figure)


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## enceledus (Jul 8, 2007)

This thread is so pointless. Not every fight can be perfect. Some people just have to find things to complain about.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

enceledus said:


> This thread is so pointless. Not every fight can be perfect. Some people just have to find things to complain about.


theres a huge difference between being perfect and a complete fail which joe silva is

sonnen rematch and okami vs belfort, wtf? okami and belfort should both challenge anderson next


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah Sonnen was fine in his post fight interview with it!:thumbsup:


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

how about this for Sonnen:

Anderon Silva vs Belfort next title fight: both great strikers, great boxers, both BJJ black belts (Belfort got medal in ADCC)

Okami vs winner of Marquardt/Palhares for next title shot

Sonnen vs winner of Bisping/Akiyama, then Leben/Wanderlei/Maia rematch

would that not be better and more interesting fights for the fans?

instead we get:
anderson-sonnen rematch
belfort vs okami for next contender
contenders after that:........


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah it would but Joe Silva is the matchmaker unfortunately!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> how about this for Sonnen:
> 
> Anderon Silva vs Belfort next title fight: both great strikers, great boxers, both BJJ black belts (Belfort got medal in ADCC)
> 
> ...


Shouldn't Vitor Belfort have to win at least one fight at MW in the UFC to get a shot at the title?


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Shouldn't Vitor Belfort have to win at least one fight at MW in the UFC to get a shot at the title?


The MW division is so damn weak that when a fighter like Vitor Calibre enters it u gotta give him a shot. He is the best fighter on paper not named Anderson or Chael. Plus he did beat the king of MW before AS Rich quite easy at catch weight. Plus the UFC has a long history of giving guys a title shot when they should be fighting someone else before.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah they aren't the most just in that right!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

marcthegame said:


> The MW division is so damn weak that when a fighter like Vitor Calibre enters it u gotta give him a shot. He is the best fighter on paper not named Anderson or Chael. Plus he did beat the king of MW before AS Rich quite easy at catch weight. Plus the UFC has a long history of giving guys a title shot when they should be fighting someone else before.


But my point is that Chael should get the shot. I doubt in the last 5 years the UFC has given a title shot to someone who has never fought in the division for the UFC. The only one I can think of since Zuffa took over is Couture, when he moved down. 

Yes Vitor beat Franklin, but he needs to prove that he can make 185 and beat someone in the UFC.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> But my point is that Chael should get the shot. I doubt in the last 5 years the UFC has given a title shot to someone who has never fought in the division for the UFC. The only one I can think of since Zuffa took over is Couture, when he moved down.
> 
> Yes Vitor beat Franklin, but he needs to prove that he can make 185 and beat someone in the UFC.


he already knocked out Terry Martin and Matt Lindland at 185. the reality is if you beat Lindland and Franklin by KO in the first minutes even if theyre past their prime, you deserve a title shot. especially somebody as accomplished as belfort (his career is a ko highlight reel).
Sonnen does not deserve an immediate rematch. Silva clearly won the fight and its not disputed. if every "almost" will count as an argument, we will have more rematches then first timers.

and btw Henderson came to UFC and challenged for both MW and LHW titles right away. you could argue Belfort was champion of affliction.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> he already knocked out Terry Martin and Matt Lindland at 185. the reality is if you beat Lindland and Franklin by KO in the first minutes even if theyre past their prime, you deserve a title shot. especially somebody as accomplished as belfort (his career is a ko highlight reel).
> Sonnen does not deserve an immediate rematch. Silva clearly won the fight and its not disputed. if every "almost" will count as an argument, we will have more rematches then first timers.
> 
> and btw Henderson came to UFC and challenged for both MW and LHW titles right away. you could argue Belfort was champion of affliction.


I pretty sure knocking out Terry martin doesn't get you anything. Would Jacare get an imediate title shot in the UFC? He finished lindland in the 1st round. Henderson challenged for both titles because he was the current PRIDE champion. They were unification bouts, and were billed as such. You argue that Belfort was the champion of Affliction, but that would be a dumb argument. There was no champion, he never fought a 5 round title fight, the assertion that a company with two ppvs is the same as PRIDE is ridiculous. By that logic if after Elite XC closed Lawler would get an immediate title fight. 

The bottom line is that without a middleweight fight there's no way Belfort is the #1 contender. Sonnen may have lost, but he was controlling the fight for 4 1/2 rounds. He also beat two of the top contenders in the UFC Maia and Marquardt. He obviously deserves the shot.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Which is why I've been saying Belfort fight Sonnen!:thumbsup:


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I pretty sure knocking out Terry martin doesn't get you anything. *Would Jacare get an imediate title shot in the UFC? He finished lindland in the 1st round. * Henderson challenged for both titles because he was the current PRIDE champion. They were unification bouts, and were billed as such. You argue that Belfort was the champion of Affliction, but that would be a dumb argument. There was no champion, he never fought a 5 round title fight, *the assertion that a company with two ppvs is the same as PRIDE is ridiculous.* *By that logic if after Elite XC closed Lawler would get an immediate title fight. *
> The bottom line is that without a middleweight fight there's no way Belfort is the #1 contender. Sonnen may have lost, but he was controlling the fight for 4 1/2 rounds. He also beat two of the top contenders in the UFC Maia and Marquardt. He obviously deserves the shot.


1. yes jacare would probably get a title shot after a fight in the ufc (if his partner anderson would not be champ) considering jake shields is about to get one
2. the company with two ppv's had Fedor, Barnett, Arlovski, Sylvia, Rothwell, Belfort, Santiago, Lindland, Babalu, lil nog, mousasi, Rizzo,Matyushenko, Jay Hieron, Gomi, Paul Daley, Soko etc fighting for them wouldnt they be title contenders?
3. EliteXC was acquired by strikeforce. Lawler was fighting Shields for the title in strikeforce. he lost.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Shields needs to fight Kampman before he gets the title shot!:thumbsup:


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> 1. yes jacare would probably get a title shot after a fight in the ufc (if his partner anderson would not be champ) considering jake shields is about to get one
> 2. the company with two ppv's had Fedor, Barnett, Arlovski, Sylvia, Rothwell, Belfort, Santiago, Lindland, Babalu, lil nog, mousasi, Rizzo,Matyushenko, Jay Hieron, Gomi, Paul Daley, Soko etc fighting for them wouldnt they be title contenders?
> 3. EliteXC was acquired by strikeforce. Lawler was fighting Shields for the title in strikeforce. he lost.


1. The UFC would definitely make Jacare have at least one MW fight, which is exacly my point. Shields isn't getting a title shot even if he wins. Fitch is getting the winner of GSP vs Koscheck. So that doesn't make any sense.
2. Out of those fighters only Belfort is a ranked MW. Lindland was ranked at the time, so you position is beating one ranked fighter 18 months ago gains you a title shot.
3. I said a if he went to the UFC. So what Strikeforce gave him a title shot. They gave Brett Rogers one after getting Ko'd by Fedor. The strikeforce analogy is not apt.

Again without a win for the UFC at MW he doesn't deserve a title shot.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> 1. The UFC would definitely make Jacare have at least one MW fight, which is exacly my point. Shields isn't getting a title shot even if he wins. Fitch is getting the winner of GSP vs Koscheck. So that doesn't make any sense.
> 2. Out of those fighters only Belfort is a ranked MW. Lindland was ranked at the time, so you position is beating one ranked fighter 18 months ago gains you a title shot.
> 3. I said a if he went to the UFC. So what Strikeforce gave him a title shot. They gave Brett Rogers one after getting Ko'd by Fedor. The strikeforce analogy is not apt.
> 
> Again without a win for the UFC at MW he doesn't deserve a title shot.


Belfort beat Franklin @195, it doesnt matter that its a different weightclass. if he lost 10 pounds the result would be the same. i know i cannot say it for a fact but he did have a ufc fight already.
fitch already fought gsp so no he is not getting the winner get your facts straight. fitch is probably getting hughes and the winner of Shields-Kampmann is getting gsp


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

i think Joe Silva does a good job, hard to keep everybody happy.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> Belfort beat Franklin @195, it doesnt matter that its a different weightclass. if he lost 10 pounds the result would be the same. i know i cannot say it for a fact but he did have a ufc fight already.
> fitch already fought gsp so no he is not getting the winner get your facts straight. fitch is probably getting hughes and the winner of Shields-Kampmann is getting gsp


Losing 10lbs can cause a whole new dynamic in a fight, so saying that it would take place is purely conjecture. Ranking a fighter higher for fights outside the division. That would be like ranking Mike Kyle high in Strikeforce, even though most of his fights are HW in Strikeforce. 

Dana White said that Fitch was next in line at the UFC 117 post-fight press conference. Your idea that Shields is getting a shot comes from your mind and nowhere else.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> i think Joe Silva does a good job, hard to keep everybody happy.


i would kill to get his job. well maybe not literally. MAYBE.

Sonnen vs Silva would be horrible if Sonnen won. he loses to every bjj guy he ever fights (ironic he said he beat everyone he ever fought). either way its a wasted match for Silva. what i liked to see was Belfort, Okami and Lombard. it will not happen because belfort is fighting okami and the loser will be thrown into the back of the line. and nobody knows when lombard will come to ufc. whose the next contender?



rockybalboa25 said:


> Losing 10lbs can cause a whole new dynamic in a fight, so saying that it would take place is purely conjecture. Ranking a fighter higher for fights outside the division. *That would be like ranking Mike Kyle high in Strikeforce, even though most of his fights are HW in Strikeforce. *
> Dana White said that Fitch was next in line at the UFC 117 post-fight press conference. Your idea that Shields is getting a shot comes from your mind and nowhere else.


i agree losing weight might make a difference. IMO the fight would have been played out exactly the same. they would just dehydrate more and fatigue faster. thats just my speculation, i dont think this matter is that important. thiago alves got a title fight @GSP after failing to make weight against matt hughes. (he had kos in between i know).

i agree that mike kyle should not be ranked high in the 205 division. i said it in another thread. but remember that belfort has 2 ko's in 185 against terry martin and lindland, and over Franklin @ 195. 195 is a catchweight not another division.
dana was asked if fitch and kos would win their fights could they fight each other, and dana said that this will not be an issue. however, afterwards he said john fitch is in the mix and is not guaranteed a title shot. Kampmann should be ahead of fitch since he never fought for a title and defeated Paulo Thiago, Volkmann and Condit. if shields beats Kampmann and GSP beats Kos, they should match up in Toronto. *heard it here first*


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah I agree that is how the title picture should work out in the welterweight division but with Dana White anything is possible, and Joe Silva doesn't help things at all!:thumbsdown:


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> i agree losing weight might make a difference. IMO the fight would have been played out exactly the same. they would just dehydrate more and fatigue faster. thats just my speculation, i dont think this matter is that important. thiago alves got a title fight @GSP after failing to make weight against matt hughes. (he had kos in between i know).
> 
> i agree that mike kyle should not be ranked high in the 205 division. i said it in another thread. but remember that belfort has 2 ko's in 185 against terry martin and lindland, and over Franklin @ 195. 195 is a catchweight not another division.
> dana was asked if fitch and kos would win their fights could they fight each other, and dana said that this will not be an issue. however, afterwards he said john fitch is in the mix and is not guaranteed a title shot. Kampmann should be ahead of fitch since he never fought for a title and defeated Paulo Thiago, Volkmann and Condit. if shields beats Kampmann and GSP beats Kos, they should match up in Toronto. *heard it here first*


I was making a point since you used the opposite logic as to why Kyle should be ranked and that Vitor should get a shot. Beating two guys who aren't very good anymore like Lindland and Martin don't earn you a title shot. Especially since he has yet to make his MW.

You noticeably left out the part where Kampmann got owned by a one dimensional Paul Daley. 

Also Fitch is 13-1 in the UFC with two wins over Alves and wins over Saunders, Pierce, Thiago, Larson, Sanchez, and Gono. I'd say that's more deserving. Plus I actually look for facts instead of just making stuff up and Fitch will get the winner of GSP/Koscheck.

http://www.cagepotato.com/slow-your...fitch-alves-will-face-winner-gsp-koscheck-nex

Besides Kampmann won't get a shot, because he won't beat Shields.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I was making a point since you used the opposite logic as to why Kyle should be ranked and that Vitor should get a shot. Beating two guys who aren't very good anymore like Lindland and Martin don't earn you a title shot. Especially since he has yet to make his MW.
> 
> You noticeably left out the part where Kampmann got owned by a one dimensional Paul Daley.
> 
> ...


again, vitor fought at 185, 185 and 195 respectively. arguably all fighters in his weightclass.

yes kampmann getting owned by Daley was sad, because kampmann is much more well rounded. but guess what? Daley got a number 1 contender match against koscheck. his recent win over paulo thiago solidifies himself, since paulo thiago himself was in contendership. fitch may be 13-1 but most of his wins were prior to loss to GSP, meaning he needs some more fights before he gets another shot.

edit: you provided a link but i dont get it. this was before the alves-fitch rematch, and after the fight dana said he doesnt know yet..


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> again, vitor fought at 185, 185 and 195 respectively. arguably all fighters in his weightclass.
> 
> yes kampmann getting owned by Daley was sad, because kampmann is much more well rounded. but guess what? Daley got a number 1 contender match against koscheck. his recent win over paulo thiago solidifies himself, since paulo thiago himself was in contendership. fitch may be 13-1 but most of his wins were prior to loss to GSP, meaning he needs some more fights before he gets another shot.
> 
> edit: you provided a link but i dont get it. this was before the alves-fitch rematch, and after the fight dana said he doesnt know yet..


Again those two fights you talked about weren't in the UFC and they weren't against top talent. Rich Franklin has only fought at 205 since, so he's not in his weight class. So let me get this straight that a win against Thiago gets Kampman a shot. You are obviously unaware that Fitch beat Thiago after his fight against GSP. He also hasn't lost since then ad added wins against Alves, Gono, Pierce, and Saunders. Kampman's wins against Volkman and Thiago can't be more impressive than that. You said that Fitch's wins came after his GSP loss, which simply isn't true. Since Fitch lost to GSP he is 5-0, while Kampmann is 4-2 in that time. Fitch beat Alves and Thiago, Fitch fought tougher opponents. This is all for not because Kampmann will get owned by GSP.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Again those two fights you talked about weren't in the UFC and they weren't against top talent. Rich Franklin has only fought at 205 since, so he's not in his weight class. So let me get this straight that a win against Thiago gets Kampman a shot. *You are obviously unaware that Fitch beat Thiago after his fight against GSP*. He also hasn't lost since then ad added wins against Alves, Gono, Pierce, and Saunders. Kampman's wins against Volkman and Thiago can't be more impressive than that. You said that Fitch's wins came after his GSP loss, which simply isn't true. Since Fitch lost to GSP he is 5-0, while Kampmann is 4-2 in that time. Fitch beat Alves and Thiago, Fitch fought tougher opponents. This is all for not because Kampmann will get owned by GSP.


i think youre missing the point here. fitch already had a title shot against gsp. does fitch deserve a shot more then kampmann and shields? yes. i have him ranked #2 at welterweight. but he already had his shot. i dont want to see GSP do just rematches with fitch kos and alves to the end of his career.kampmann beat condit, volkmann and paulo thiago. paulo thiago beat kos, swick, volkmann and gave a fight to fitch who is #2. a win over paulo thiago and shields should guarantee a title shot. but i think shields beats kampmann.

not only is he ruining the 185 division, now 205 is getting ruined.

http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/81131-jon-jones-waiting-winner-ryan-bader-vs-rogerio-nogueira.html

so now Jon Jones is fighting the winner of lil nog vs Bader. a top contender will be eliminated. so after shogun beats rashad the only contender who will be left is jon jones...

Machida is just coming off two losses to shogun
rampage is going to be coming off losses to rashad and machida
cyrille diabate already got his ass kicked by shogun and had only 1 fight in the ufc against luiz cane.
Phil Davis? who did he even fight?
forrest griffin coming off losses to rashad and anderson and beat tito
thiago silva coming off a loss to rashad
no top 10 contenders whatsoever. even if they bring in king mo and feijao they dont deserve to fight for the title.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

UFC86, start using the edit button. Don't double post anymore, it clutters the forum.

As for Joe Silva, he generally does his job well. There are a few off fights sometimes, but there's a lot of fights that are really good that we don't expect, and that's all thanks to Silva's matchups.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

while im drunk.. im gonna go ahead and say.. joe silva is the man!


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

M.C said:


> UFC86, start using the edit button. Don't double post anymore, it clutters the forum.
> 
> As for Joe Silva, he generally does his job well. There are a few off fights sometimes, but there's a lot of fights that are really good that we don't expect, and that's all thanks to Silva's matchups.


ive been using the multi-quote button as of recent

joe silva or dana or whoever it is has atrocious matchmaking model. matching up all the contenders against each other. at hw they figured out how to do it by sending Carwin, Cain and JDS at Lesnar. at 205 they got Jones fighting the winner of Bader and Rogerio. eliminating 2 contenders just like that. at mw we had a rematch in the title fight and the top contenders belfort and okami fighting each other. at ww there is no clear contenders now, fitch is back even though he already fought gsp (just like kos) and kampmann fights shields, which is ok. i dont understand why match contenders against each other instead of building fighters up.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

How is that model more worse than Strikeforce's model?


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> i think youre missing the point here. fitch already had a title shot against gsp. does fitch deserve a shot more then kampmann and shields? yes. i have him ranked #2 at welterweight. but he already had his shot. i dont want to see GSP do just rematches with fitch kos and alves to the end of his career.kampmann beat condit, volkmann and paulo thiago. paulo thiago beat kos, swick, volkmann and gave a fight to fitch who is #2. a win over paulo thiago and shields should guarantee a title shot. but i think shields beats kampmann.
> 
> not only is he ruining the 185 division, now 205 is getting ruined.
> 
> ...


You know for the first time you have kind of sold this argument to me with your argument about the "very top contenders" fighting each other, because you are right the LHW and the WW division are both fcuked at the top end of the division in the sense all we are likely to see for the foreseeable future is rematch after rematch, which is just totally gay and bad match making could well of played a huge role in creating this situation, the opening post still sucks big time btw the examples you picked on there are all piss poor.

The LHW is the best example ever, its just screwed completely for the foreseeable future and so many potentiality exciting new matches are going to be and already have been denied us by what I can see now is bad match making.

Its like this, you have a circle of ex-champs and champ with Rash/Machida/Rampage/Shogun and nobody other than T.Silva has been even given the opportunity to enter that elite few and now having suffered losses against 2 of these 4 he is unliekly to have any chance of re-entering the title mix again at least for a very long time.

Then on the other foot you have the top condensers in the division little Nog/Bader/Jones

So what we are about to see here is all these ex-champs go at it with each other potentiality creating a vicious circle of yet again more title rematches at the top, seriously if Rash beats Shogun and with his current turn back to his wrestling roots you have to be a fool to think he does not stand a really good chance in that fight then Rash again becomes the champ, then imagine Machida beating Rampage, which is really not very hard to imagine, then the nightmare is complete, because then you have a seriously fcuked up situation where in order for Rash to truly stake his rightful claim on the belt he has to face the one guy he has ever lost to, who just happens to be coming off a win to another ex-champion, so they have no option but to give us Rash vs Machida 2.

Then on the other foot like you say, the 3 top contenders are about to become one as they are about to eliminate each other resulting in guaranteed set backs for not just one but two of them, so while we are set for Rash vs Machida 2 should it come to that, its near guaranteed that they will line the winner of the 3 contenders up against Shogun where after a shed load of fights we get the chance again for another fighter, for the first time since T.Silva, to enter the very top elite in the division, and ffs what then if Shogun wins the nightmare just gets worse, especially if Machida beats Rash again or ether way because you have to have Machida vs Shogun 3 if at that point Machida is champ, and even if Rash is still the champ who is left to face Shogun, or Rash for that matter so oh joy we get Shogun vs Rash 2.

OMG if that is the near future of the LHW division it does not even bare thinking about what was once the most stacked division in the UFC has just been smashed to bits and has nothing more to offer us than rematch after rematch and bad match making for matches that are all ready on the cards are totally to blame.

So here is how this situation could of completely been avoided from where we are now, (although current fights set in motion already on the next lot of UFC cards has already screwed this up so all we can do now is sit back and watch Joe Silva's sh1t hit the fan). You have as follows

Rash/Shogun/Machida/Rampage - at the top
T.Silva - in between
Bader/Jones/little Nog - top contenders

Rash with already having 2 wins over this group since his loss to Machida has already earned his title shot you cant rob that from him, so first match up

1. Rash vs Shogun

then you give ALL 3 top contenders a a chance to enter the elite and have

2. Machida vs Little Nog
3. Jones vs Rampage
4. Bader vs T.Silva

or any combo of the above that involves top contenders facing ex-champs, the result been they are ALL been given a shot at entering the very top tier not just one of them, they you sit back wait for the results and have 3 candidates to choose from lining up for title shot, any set backs are not as deep and odds are we will see some unexpected results maybe that juice up the title race a little as we have 3 new contenders in the top mix not just 1 who may have to come thought yet another hard fight as discussed above with the possibility of facing Shogun and still possibility never making the title shot any time soon.

The outcome here would be that any of the top contenders who deserve to take there place in the top tier are there, any that don't are set back anyway but gain from the experience of a top tier fight and have every chance to then build on that and fight there way back into the mix, which it is guaranteed to happen to at least 2 of the contenders anyway with the set up Joe Silva has in place.

Also with my alternative we may not be left in a spot where it could just be possible that Jones/Bader and lil Nog are currently the best 3 fighters in the division except that's not what the ratings and status are showing us because someone like say Jones eliminated the other 2 before they got there chance to take there rightful place and set them back a possible couple of years, maybe even shattered there confidence and they miss there peaking years fighting there way back up when they should of already been there.

I could go on to write about how situations like this has already lead to the state of the WW division but I really cant be arsed to continue this essay so you will just have to think about it for yourself.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> How is that model more worse than Strikeforce's model?


well i have to agree with Dana on that one and say strikeforce is just simply lacking fighters.
at HW they should have done Fedor vs Overeem for title and Werdum vs Rogers instead. then if Fedor and Werdum won, THEN they could fight. and if Overeem and Rogers lost THEN they could fight. strikeforce hurried up the process and made a mess. they also mess up careers like Arlovski and Rogers who were promising.
at lhw they are ok but they got the ufc situation of the belt switching hands. they should have used henderson and babalu as test for contenders. for example let feijao fight henderson before fighting mo. but i guess their top would consist of feijao, kyle, mousasi, babalu, henderson and Mo.
mw they made a mistake of pitting jacare with kennedy without a tournament, though i think it was a good fight for both fighters. now they need to somehow mix lawler, mayhem, cung le etc as contenders. maybe use lindland as a test. jake shields really left a mess.
at ww nick diaz needs to fight in his own damn weight class for once, and against some challengers. hieron and riggs already expressed dissatisfaction at him not defending the belt.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> ive been using the multi-quote button as of recent
> 
> joe silva or dana or whoever it is has atrocious matchmaking model. matching up all the contenders against each other. at hw they figured out how to do it by sending Carwin, Cain and JDS at Lesnar. at 205 they got Jones fighting the winner of Bader and Rogerio. eliminating 2 contenders just like that. at mw we had a rematch in the title fight and the top contenders belfort and okami fighting each other. at ww there is no clear contenders now, fitch is back even though he already fought gsp (just like kos) and kampmann fights shields, which is ok. i dont understand why match contenders against each other instead of building fighters up.


You don't want top guys to fight top guys. That's ridiculous. That's the difference between the UFC and Strikeforce. In the UFC you earn a shot. If the top contenders never fight each other than you end up with how boxing is right now. This is a terrible idea. If Fitch can beat every contender, then he deserves another shot, not some guy who got a paved way to a title shot.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> You don't want top guys to fight top guys. That's ridiculous. That's the difference between the UFC and Strikeforce. In the UFC you earn a shot. If the top contenders never fight each other than you end up with how boxing is right now. This is a terrible idea. If Fitch can beat every contender, then he deserves another shot, not some guy who got a paved way to a title shot.


do not compare mma to boxing in this way. in boxing, if jon jones vs hamill was a title fight, you would be damn sure that the title would split between them. the problem in boxing is that the champions dont fight each other at all. i cannot say this in all cases,but look at mayweather vs pacquiao and james toney's situation. why did he go to mma? in ufc the top contenders fight for the title. its just that eliminating contenders early on makes no sense. jon jones and ryan bader could both fight for the title. but instead jon jones is fighting winner of bader/lil nog. name me someone other then those guys that deserves a title shot after rashad. in the next 2-3 years.
and as much as i would love to see georges give another ass whooping to koscheck, fitch and alves i would prefer to see him fight some other contenders (like kampmann and shields, not like dan hardy)


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah the winner of Shields versus Kampman can definately be considered in the title picture, if not already there!:thumbsup:


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> do not compare mma to boxing in this way. in boxing, if jon jones vs hamill was a title fight, you would be damn sure that the title would split between them. the problem in boxing is that the champions dont fight each other at all. i cannot say this in all cases,but look at mayweather vs pacquiao and james toney's situation. why did he go to mma? in ufc the top contenders fight for the title. its just that eliminating contenders early on makes no sense. jon jones and ryan bader could both fight for the title. but instead jon jones is fighting winner of bader/lil nog. name me someone other then those guys that deserves a title shot after rashad. in the next 2-3 years.
> and as much as i would love to see georges give another ass whooping to koscheck, fitch and alves i would prefer to see him fight some other contenders (like kampmann and shields, not like dan hardy)


Shields will probably get a shot, but he'll have to earn it. After he beats kampmann, he will probably only have to win one more fight to get a shot. Boxing does have too many titles, but one of the biggest problems is protecting fighters. Ever notice how many undefeated boxing prospects there are and how few undisputed mma fighters there are. This is because guys are protected and don't fight other top contenders. The UFC has it right; make top contenders fight each other to earn title shots. Not only is fair, but it gives us great undercards.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Shields will probably get a shot, but he'll have to earn it. After he beats kampmann, he will probably only have to win one more fight to get a shot. Boxing does have too many titles, but one of the biggest problems is protecting fighters. Ever notice how many undefeated boxing prospects there are and how few undisputed mma fighters there are. This is because guys are protected and don't fight other top contenders. The UFC has it right; make top contenders fight each other to earn title shots. Not only is fair, but it gives us great undercards.


so a top contender is fighting on the undercard?
look at the ufc undercards this year and other years. the fighters there arent great. those are fighters having their rookie fights in the ufc testing the waters. most of them get cut. anyways top contenders should not fight other top contenders. they should fight the champion.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> so a top contender is fighting on the undercard?
> look at the ufc undercards this year and other years. the fighters there arent great. those are fighters having their rookie fights in the ufc testing the waters. most of them get cut. anyways top contenders should not fight other top contenders. they should fight the champion.


Wow that comment came right out of your butt.

Here are the contenders (ranked fighters) that fought on the undercards

UFC 118- Maia, Diaz, Florian, Maynard
UFC 117-Dos Santos, Alves, Fitch, Hughes
UFC on versus-Okami
UFC 116-Soti, 
UFC 115-Thiago, Kampmann
UFC 114-Lil Nog
UFC 113-Koscheck, Daley
UFC 112-Penn vs Edgar (title fight), Hughes
UFC 111-Fitch, Mir, Carwin
UFC on versus-Dos Santos
UFC 110-Bader
UFC 109-Sera, Maia, Thiago, Marquardt, Sonnen
UFC 108-Dos Santos, Daley
UFC 107-Florian, Fitch, Mir

Do you see how ignorant of a comment you made?


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Wow that comment came right out of your butt.
> 
> Here are the contenders (ranked fighters) that fought on the undercards
> 
> ...


Umm I'm pretty sure you are mistaken. Undercard refers to the fights not shown on the PPV... not the fights that aren't the main or co-main event. Those are just regular main card bouts.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

wukkadb said:


> Umm I'm pretty sure you are mistaken. Undercard refers to the fights not shown on the PPV... not the fights that aren't the main or co-main event. Those are just regular main card bouts.


No those would be preliminary fights. The undercard has always in mma/boxing meant any fight on the card isn't the main event. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercard#Undercard

So again you're wrong, but at least you're used to it by now.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> No those would be preliminary fights. The undercard has always in mma/boxing meant any fight on the card isn't the main event.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercard#Undercard
> 
> So again you're wrong, but at least you're used to it by now.


when i said undercard i meant preliminaries. the word undercard is used interchangeably with preliminaries very often. so rethink the post


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Nowadays preliminaries means the fights that are not guarenteed to be on the pay-per-view broadcast!:thumbsup:


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> No those would be preliminary fights. The undercard has always in mma/boxing meant any fight on the card isn't the main event.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercard#Undercard
> 
> So again you're wrong, but at least you're used to it by now.


actually it doesnt matter which way you slice it, "undercard" fights have always being great since UFC: "stacked" because they have enough great fighters. i can make a great undercard without contenders fighting each other. how about:

205
Shogun vs Rashad Evans
Jon Jones vs Randy Couture
Ryan Bader vs Rogerio winner vs Forrest Griffin/Rich Franklin

this way you have contenders vs established stars. similar to what they did in Bernard Hopkins vs Pavlik in boxing.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> when i said undercard i meant preliminaries. the word undercard is used interchangeably with preliminaries very often. so rethink the post


no they're not.



UFC86 said:


> actually it doesnt matter which way you slice it, "undercard" fights have always being great since UFC: "stacked" because they have enough great fighters. i can make a great undercard without contenders fighting each other. how about:
> 
> 205
> Shogun vs Rashad Evans
> ...


The only fighter you mentioned that aren't ranked or listed as "other contenders" by either Sherdog/mmaweekly is Couture. They are all contenders, so what you said made absolutely no sense.

There are several reasons why your Pavlick vs Hopkins fight isn't apt.

1. Both guys were established stars. Pavlick was the MW champion and Hopkins was a long established star.
2. Neither guy was ranked in the division they fought in. It took place at 168. Hopkins had just fought at 175 and Pavlick was the MW champ.
3. Both guys had fought the best contenders in their respective divisions.


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## mohammadmoofty (Mar 26, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Wow that comment came right out of your butt.
> 
> Here are the contenders (ranked fighters) that fought on the undercards
> 
> ...



literally every single one of those fights was on the main card.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

mohammadmoofty said:


> literally every single one of those fights was on the main card.


Which is called the undercard pay attention, read the whole post along with the links.


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## mohammadmoofty (Mar 26, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Which is called the undercard pay attention, read the whole post along with the links.


close to every ufc event is listed that the main card is what fights are shown in the PPV (minus the extra's at the end)
it says that in the same site that you posted your link


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

mohammadmoofty said:


> close to every ufc event is listed that the main card is what fights are shown in the PPV (minus the extra's at the end)
> it says that in the same site that you posted your link


Since the beginning of fighting the non main event fights have been called undercard. But since this isn't the point of the thread maybe you should let it go.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> no they're not.
> The only fighter you mentioned that aren't ranked or listed as "other contenders" by either Sherdog/mmaweekly is Couture. They are all contenders, so what you said made absolutely no sense.
> There are several reasons why your Pavlick vs Hopkins fight isn't apt.
> 1. Both guys were established stars. Pavlick was the MW champion and Hopkins was a long established star.
> ...


so the point is, whether franklin or forrest are contenders or not, they are established, unlike jones and bader who are rising stars. if you let rising stars fight established stars they can legitimize their title shot if they win. if they fight each other they prove nothing. fighting former champions in franklin and forrest and beating them warrents a title shot.

i brought pavlik vs hopkins as an example because hopkins is a legend and couture-like figure in boxing. if pavlik would have beaten him it would warrent him a title shot, but he lost.


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## mohammadmoofty (Mar 26, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Since the beginning of fighting the non main event fights have been called undercard.


not in the ufc.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> so the point is, whether franklin or forrest are contenders or not, they are established, unlike jones and bader who are rising stars. if you let rising stars fight established stars they can legitimize their title shot if they win. if they fight each other they prove nothing. fighting former champions in franklin and forrest and beating them warrents a title shot.
> 
> i brought pavlik vs hopkins as an example because hopkins is a legend and couture-like figure in boxing. if pavlik would have beaten him it would warrent him a title shot, but he lost.


Why does an established guy beating an established guy prove nothing? That's how Evans earned his shot, by beating an established Rampage.

Again on Pavlick vs Hopkins you're not making any sense. Pavlick was the champion; Hopkins wasn't. Hopkins had just lost and wasn't the champion of anything and the underdog in that fight.



mohammadmoofty said:


> not in the ufc.


Yes it is. Again you're confusing prelim and undercard


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

since karo is returning to ufc look at the matchmaking joe silva should be considering:

Karo vs Hawn

Hieron vs Nate Diaz

Karo vs Nate Diaz

Hughes vs Fitch

Barry vs Hunt

Arona vs Couture

GSP vs Kampmann/Shields (probably shields)

winner of Serra/Lytle vs Paulo Thiago/Diego winner

break off Okami and Belfort and let okami fight Marquardt/Palhares

some rematches: 
Mir-Nelson (grappling) 
Nelson-Rothwell, 
Hughes-Hallman


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Mir against Roy Nelson? Did that match really happen before?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd love to kick Joe in the crotch for not making B.J. Penn/Sotty happen right now...

That would have answered so many questions.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Mir against Roy Nelson? Did that match really happen before?


i pointed it out in brackets. roy nelson beat mir in grappling.

i also think with the coming of karo, him and hughes can have some important matchups. anyone else wants to see those fights?

1. Karo vs Hallman (Karo by decision)

2. Hughes vs Fitch for title shot (fitch by decision)

3. Karo vs Nate Diaz (Karo by decision)

4. Hughes vs Dennis Hallman (Hallman by submission)

5. Karo vs Hughes (Hughes by decision)

6. Karo vs Rick Hawn (tossup)


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> i pointed it out in brackets. roy nelson beat mir in grappling.
> 
> i also think with the coming of karo, him and hughes can have some important matchups. anyone else wants to see those fights?
> 
> ...


Nate Diaz would destroy Karo.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Nate Diaz would destroy Karo.


He'd eat Karo for breakfast.... "The Heat" no longer exists...


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

can somebody explain the following matchups? i was looking at the fights in the next ufc cards, and i was buffled

Hamman vs Kingsbury- a guy coming out of nowhere and got knocked out, and a tuf reject. is that a fight somebody wants to see?

Joey Beltran vs Mit- 2 up and comers that are completely unproven

Guymon vs Roberts- they both had their load in getting their ass kicked and are completely unknown to casual fans.

steve lopez vs waylon lowe- i dont even know who they are


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Do you expect the UFC to pack cards full of title contender fights? These are prelim fights for a reason.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kool-aid man said:


> Simple, these guys are all *young up and commers*. they need a place to start somewhere.
> 
> Also i hope Belttran kills Mit becase Mit ended Kimbo's career


michael guymon is 36. coming off a loss to teenager rory mac who condit destroyed.
Daniel Roberts got knocked out by john howard, who has he ever knocked out?

mitrione is 32 and had like 2 mma fights against fighters who both lost in the house. also lost to mcsweeney on the show.
Beltran is 29 and lost to tony lopez twice, and beat 3 fighters that were cut by ufc with disgraceful performances. (alexander, Rolles, Hague)

steve lopez and waylon lowe i know nothing about except they both got destroyed when they fought in ufc.

also add forrest petz vs brian foster:im guessing forrest petz is being fed to foster. but is foster really a prospect? he was a mediocore fighter in the indies, got embarrased by story and lytle and beat brock larson who is overrated.

John Gunderson vs Yves Edwards- 
Gunderson is 31, and lost to rafaello oliveira who got released. yves edwards isnt ufc material either.

edit:


kool-aid man said:


> the UFC prelims are more exciting then any Strikefarce show. I mean they Hype up *Fedor who is one of the most overrated fighters ever (along with Penn, AA and Sylvia) and he gets destoryed by a guy that couldnt even hang in the UFC.*
> WHy arent there any posts about StriceFarce's terrible match making


great to have you aboard Dana, hows the biz? only 6 posts eh? ok.

did you notice that when a ufc fighter gets released he usually does NOT end up in strikeforce? not every garbage ufc fighter is a good fighter.
Gunderson-Yves, Lopez-Lowe and Guymon-Roberts are just dreadful, prelims or not. they just keep these guys around only to cut them under a year later. at least give them bigger fights to be cut after and tell their children they fought great fighters.

and they do have garbage main card fights like Quarry vs Starnes, Grove vs Munoz, Rothwell vs Yvel, Eddie Sanchez vs Soa just off the top of my head. and often the prelims get bumped to the main card like Pellegrino vs Camoes.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 14, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> michael guymon is 36. coming off a loss to teenager rory mac who condit destroyed.
> Daniel Roberts got knocked out by john howard, who has he ever knocked out?
> 
> mitrione is 32 and had like 2 mma fights against fighters who both lost in the house. also lost to mcsweeney on the show.
> ...


Your MMA Math is awesome. Can you do my checkbook?


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Condit didn't destroy MacDonald, Rory had a very good start in that fight, and looked awesome early on. Losing to him is no bad thing.

Also, just because these guys are over 30 doesn't mean they're not up and comers. They're new to the UFC and trying to make a name for themselves. How else are they supposed to gain popularity and work their way up? Don't get why you're criticising here, they're prelim fights, you can't expect big names and young guns in every fight.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> Condit didn't destroy MacDonald, Rory had a very good start in that fight, and looked awesome early on. Losing to him is no bad thing.
> 
> Also, just because these guys are over 30 doesn't mean they're not up and comers. They're new to the UFC and trying to make a name for themselves. How else are they supposed to gain popularity and work their way up? *Don't get why you're criticising here, they're prelim fights, you can't expect big names and young guns in every fight.*


*

i mentioned their age because the previous poster called them "young"

when i watch a ufc on ppv (wherever that is) or a fight night, i want to see the best fights. i dont want to see fights like pellegrion vs camoes bumped to the main card, do you? and fights like quarry-starnes and eddie sanchez vs soa. those fights were doomed from the beginning. someone needs to bring a matchmaker that knows how to match fighters properly. do a seeding or something. he always has the 2 worst fighters on the roster fighting each other (example Mitrione vs Beltran being the worst HW)*


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Pellegrino vs Camoes was an awesome fight. Don't know what you're on about. None of these fights will be shown on the main card unless they turn out awesome. They're prelim fights. They're a way for the lower ranked guys to get some big time experience, how else will they get that without fighting eachother? Would you do away with prelims all together?


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> Pellegrino vs Camoes was an awesome fight. Don't know what you're on about. None of these fights will be shown on the main card unless they turn out awesome. *They're prelim fights*. They're a way for the lower ranked guys to get some big time experience, how else will they get that without fighting eachother? Would you do away with prelims all together?


was it a good fight. i think i missed it. i would rather take a break then watch these guys fight. and no theyre not prelims, theyre right on the main card. they were bumped up because another fight on the main card got cancelled. 

can you imagine they bump Madsen-Yvel to the main card? people will stop buying ppv. and thats another fight that is absolutely atrocious. if you want to release yvel so badly then do it, he already lost to jds. madsen will just wrestlehump him to decision. is that what everyone wants to see? why not put him against another striker like pat barry and let their mma skills prevail, and cut the loser? what a waste.

if anyone is interested in madsen vs yvel please let me know, and tell me madsen will not wrestle yvel into a boring decision, post right now.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 14, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> i mentioned their age because the previous poster called them "young"
> 
> when i watch a ufc on ppv (wherever that is) or a fight night, i want to see the best fights. i dont want to see fights like pellegrion vs camoes bumped to the main card, do you? and fights like quarry-starnes and eddie sanchez vs soa. those fights were doomed from the beginning. someone needs to bring a matchmaker that knows how to match fighters properly. do a seeding or something. he always has the 2 worst fighters on the roster fighting each other (example Mitrione vs Beltran being the worst HW)


Someone sure is spoiled. Some days you just gotta throw some shit together and see if it works or not. All of they headliner guys you are watching now were the under card guys from a few years ago.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kool-aid man said:


> First of all im sorry I didnt realize i had to spell everything out and keep it simple for you. Young is a relative term, By that i mean, Are they Wel known in the World of MMA? Are they huge superstars like Brock, GSP CHuck, Fedor and so on? No pretty sure they arent. So by young i mean They are young in there careers and havent had the break yet. This is why they are on the Prelims. The whole idea of the prelims is to give guys a chance and build them up. They reason why they fight other up and coming guys, is so they can thin out the herd and keep the best around. lets look at Kieth Jardine for example: This is a guy that beat guys like Chuck, Forrest, Vera and Gouviea. He was one of the more popular fighters and fought only top competition. Why is it that Jardine got cut? Cause he Lost 4 in a row. He lost to Rampage in a Number 1 contender fight. Then Who lse did he lose to? Thiago Silva, Ryan Bater and Matt Hamil. Where did they all start off? Thats right at the bottom of the card in the same fight your complaining about.
> 
> Next, Condit didnt destroy Rory Mac. He won in the third round after being dominated almost the entire fight.
> 
> ...


young means in age, not in any other way. if you look at michael guymon he is past his prime and if he loses to guys like rory he is not a prospect, because rory will improve much more then he will.

i dont get your point about jardine. he fought against 3 top 10 fighters in rampage, thiago silva and bader. then for his last opportunity he got matched up with a gatekeeper like hamill in a loser gets cut match. whats even worse is i thought jardine won the fight. why did he not fight a guy like petruzelli who was making his return?

i also think foster is going to beat petz, i didnt say otherwise. my point was they both arent good.

i was trying to figure out if youre dana because youre saying "fedor sucks the moment he fought a ufc reject he got destoryed" dude fedor beat arlovski who beat werdum, then what? fedor played into werdum's game and everybody knew he would get beat if he did. he still should be #1 or around that. and its not his fault his manager is crooked and keeps him out of ufc. now for strikeforce signing ufc rejects thats not true, they sign guys that couldnt come to terms with ufc (like werdum, arlovski and henderson). guys like gurgel are very minority and riggs was ages ago. remember strikeforce passed on kimbo, they dont sign anybody


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

kool-aid man said:


> And i love your MMA math bro its awesome. Big deal AA beat Werdum, so since tim Sylvia beat AA, does that mean Sylvia can beat Werdum? Fact of the matter is, Fedor has fought nothing but cans and over rated dudes for the past 5 years. AA and Timmy were both overrated fighters that where products of the UFC hype machine. That doenst mean anything.


If you play that game long enough just about everyone has beat everyone else, check this out I bet I can link Kimbo Slice back to beating Fedor, may take a me a while to figure it out and a few moves, but give me a min and I will have a go

Kimbo Slice
Houston Alexander 
Keith Jardine
Forrest Griffin
Shogun Rua
Lyoto Machida
Rameau Sokoudjou
Joaquim Ferreira
Junior dos Santos
Fabricio Werdum
Fedor Emelianenko

See I bet you could link back any current fighter who dont have a perfect record to any other if you try hard enough, it was not even that hard and can probably be done in less moves, which proves the entire theory of a fighter beating another fight because they beat the guy who beat them to be BS in case anyone did not know anyway


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kool-aid man said:


> My point with Jardine, is that those guys that you said are top 10 all started on the prelims (with the excaeption of Rampage) much like the fighters and fight you going on and on about. Guess what dude they need to start some where, so why not burry them on the perlims to get exposure, The cream always rises to the top, so the best of the best will come through. And now that i think about it, how many of the prelims fights do you even see? If theres extra time in the events the show the best fights, so its not like you are paying for them anyway, and i gurentee that you wont find one person who decieds on where or not they are going to a UFC show because of the perlims.
> 
> And i love your MMA math bro its awesome. Big deal AA beat Werdum, so since tim Sylvia beat AA, does that mean Sylvia can beat Werdum? Fact of the matter is, Fedor has fought nothing but cans and over rated dudes for the past 5 years. AA and Timmy were both overrated fighters that where products of the UFC hype machine. That doenst mean anything.
> 
> And Strikeforce will sign anyone. they Signed Lashly, they signed Walker. AA asked for his realease, Hendo held out for more money and got destroyed by Shields, and Werdum was 2-2 in the UFC, of course they wanted to re do there terms. they tried to sign Karo who was in all sorts of trouble, and Grugel who was on a 3 fight losing streak.


ok Dana how about this
#1. just couple of years ago Fedor was champion of Pride and Arlovski and Sylvia were changing belts as UFC champions. so they were all overrated? so both the Pride and UFC champions were overrated? so that means your champions were overrated too doesnt it? and Fedor disposed of them in round 1. and he knocked out the guy who beat Arlovski.
#2 who are top 10 fighters currently? Big Nog who was interim champion and also beat Couture who you were saying would crush Fedor, and Cro Cop whose fighting Frank Mir and was a win away from a title shot against couture. didnt Fedor completely dismantle them?
#3 yes i can use Arlovski beating Werdum. and Sylvia could have beat werdum too, sylvia was a good fighter but not the best. Werdum was ranked #7 in the world when he fought Fedor, he was coming out of a win over Antonio Silva. if by destroying Fedor you mean catching him in a sub, then fine, HE COMPLETELY ANNIHILATED AND OUTCLASSED FEDOR GFY DANA.

regarding the prelim fights, sometimes a main fight gets cancelled and a prelim turns into a main fight. and yes thiago silva was on the prelims and was fighting drwal and machida which i also dont agree with. the machida fight completely messed thiago silva up. 



KillerShark1985 said:


> If you play that game long enough just about everyone has beat everyone else, check this out I bet I can link Kimbo Slice back to beating Fedor, may take a me a while to figure it out and a few moves, but give me a min and I will have a go
> 
> Kimbo Slice
> Houston Alexander
> ...


how about kimbo-houston-jardine-liddell-overeem-rogers-arlovski-werdum-fedor


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> how about kimbo-houston-jardine-liddell-overeem-rogers-arlovski-werdum-fedor


Works well, so many paths you can take I bet Fedor has lost to everyone along the endless different routes, which I guess must make him the worse HW the sport has ever seen.

ANd better still I bet Kimbo Slice has beat Everyone using this same formula, just look at some of the names on the lists that Kimbo has beat, dam think where you could go from the likes of Fedor, Liddell, *MACHIDA*, Kimbo must of cleaned out every fighter in every division across the world, he has beaten GSP for got sake, when you get to Machida you can jump to BJ Penn > Matt Hughes > GSP, from GSP you are just going crazy, fcuk it Kimbo has beat continents full of fighters, Gracie's, Shamrocks you name it, Kimbo has one over them all, you can make him the greatest MMA fighter who ever lived using this formula.

But wait a moment, going on professional records alone by this formula, despite Kimbos legendary status beating every fighter you can possibility think of there is one better, Kimbo has never beat Matt Mitrione no matter what route you take, and Mitrione has beaten Kimbo, so god dam it Mitrione if the Greatest Fighter Of All Time


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

KillerShark1985 said:


> But wait a moment, going on professional records alone by this formula, despite Kimbos legendary status beating every fighter you can possibility think of there is one better, *Kimbo has never beat Matt Mitrione no matter what route you take, and Mitrione has beaten Kimbo, so god dam it Mitrione if the Greatest Fighter Of All Time*


wait a moment...
kimbo-houston-jardine-liddell-overeem-rogers-arlovski-werdum-fedor-*Cro Cop-Mostapha Al Turk-James Mcsweeney-Matt Mitrione* 
mit did lose on tuf. i know this is not professional record but if you gonna use mmath, use it with ANY formula not just pro. 

the problem with the formula in the mmath is all the winners in my original formula going to Fedor were big upsets, maybe except Arlovski-Werdum. also Overeem made quite a change since then, but not according to Dana White who says "oh overeem got knocked out by chuck liddell he sucks" Kimbo-Houston-Jardine-Liddell is intriguing though. it means Kimbo is not far remove from liddell and they were shit talking about each other.how huge would a match between them two would be? they would be labelled as freakshow in ufc and too good for some smaller show. shame.

ps you got no shame going on mma website with bisping AV? he gotta get the most heat out there, together with Hughes, Tito, Mir and the like

edit: Joe Silva is at it again

BJ Penn vs Matt Hughes/facepalm!!!
Hughes needs to fight Jon Fitch and not fight a lightweight. he also needs to fight Karo Parisyan and Dennis Hallman. and who fitch is going to fight???

and i was fighting ufn22
Kingsbury exposed Hamman as NOT a prospect and they should both be released
Attonito exposed Rafael Natal and likewise they both should be released
same goes for Edwards and Gunderson.
Dave Branch came with an upset over Drwal. also they might look for a new profession.
cole miller with an upset over overrated tuf winner ross 
pearson

and now look apparently there is no Dunham-Sherk immediate rematch, Jon Jones is fighting Bader and Jon Jones doesnt even like it


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