# And you thought sherdog's rankings were bad



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

mmaweekly's HW rankings.

#1 Heavyweight Fighter in the World: Brock Lesnar

2. Fabricio Werdum

3. Fedor Emelianenko

4. Cain Velasquez

5. Junior Dos Santos

6. Shane Carwin

7. Alistair Overeem

8. Frank Mir

9. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira

10. Brett Rogers

First of all how is Werdum ahead of Dos Santos, who beat him and hasn't lost since. I also think Velasquez should be ahead of Werdum and Fedor, but that's not opinion that doesn't have another side to the argument. #7 spot is Overeem? He already lost to Nog. He's not beat any good HWs, the only guy he's beaten that's ever been ranked is Rogers. Brett Rogers is awful. Which brings me to #10. This is the one that puts me over the edge Brett Rogers? Are you kidding me. There's a lot of guys who can go at that 10 spot, but Rogers ain't one of them. Put Silva or Nelson but Brett Rogers should have never been ranked and never should be again.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah Big Country I think is an underrated fighter and should be there instead of Rogers!


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## Rastaman (Feb 25, 2010)

Those rankings are bad for sure, but I disagree with you when it comes to Overeem. He is not the Overeem of old, he's the Ubereem of new. I would almost venture to say that all his fights in LHW are irrelevent, and we should judge him solely on how well he's done in K1/MMA since he mysteriously gained an unbelivable amount of muscle. He's an absolute beast at the moment, and I'd hesitate before saying he couldn't beat anyone in the top 5 HW in the world. I believe he would destroy fedor now, Lesnar would have the tools to win (but easily could lose too), Fabricio wouldn't even be close to able to submit Overeem now unless the fight went right to the ground, Cain would stand about a 50/50 chance. JDS would stand a shot for sure, he's a beast also.

Just my opinion, but of course we'll never know when Overeem is fighting cans like Rogers (I agree with you, Brett should definitely not be on the top ten even close. Top 20, sure, but I'd venture to bet Lashley could even beat him).


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Yeah there looking at the fact that Overeem and other guys are title holders or fighting for a title, but not the skill set...

If Cain or JDS went to SF they would be the title holders... Its horrible ranking indeed


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Brock
Cain
JDS
Overeem
Fedor
Carwin
Werdum
Mir
Nog
Nelson/Barnett

This is my TOP!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

limba said:


> Brock
> Cain
> JDS
> Overeem
> ...


I don't think Overeeem should be ranked that high, Fedor should not be ahead of Werdum, but I agree that Barnett is once again legit and should be at least number ten!


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Brett Rogers shouldn't be on that list at all. 

Mind you I don't think he's a can. Because TBH I don't see 90% of world HW fighters getting past Fedor or Overeem. But back to back stoppage losses are 2 stoppage losses. Period.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah I agree that Brett Rogers shouldn't be on either!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Brett Rogers shouldn't be on that list at all.
> 
> Mind you I don't think he's a can. Because TBH I don't see 90% of world HW fighters getting past Fedor or Overeem. But back to back stoppage losses are 2 stoppage losses. Period.


I don't think he's a can, but he's not even on Kongo's level. He's about where Shaub is now.



limba said:


> Brock
> Cain
> JDS
> Overeem
> ...


How is Fedor higher than the guy who just beat him.



Rastaman said:


> Those rankings are bad for sure, but I disagree with you when it comes to Overeem. He is not the Overeem of old, he's the Ubereem of new. I would almost venture to say that all his fights in LHW are irrelevent, and we should judge him solely on how well he's done in K1/MMA since he mysteriously gained an unbelivable amount of muscle. He's an absolute beast at the moment, and I'd hesitate before saying he couldn't beat anyone in the top 5 HW in the world. I believe he would destroy fedor now, Lesnar would have the tools to win (but easily could lose too), Fabricio wouldn't even be close to able to submit Overeem now unless the fight went right to the ground, Cain would stand about a 50/50 chance. JDS would stand a shot for sure, he's a beast also.
> 
> Just my opinion, but of course we'll never know when Overeem is fighting cans like Rogers (I agree with you, Brett should definitely not be on the top ten even close. Top 20, sure, but I'd venture to bet Lashley could even beat him).


I don't see that Overeem has done anything at HW. Beating Brett Rogers is no big deal. K-1 kickboxing doesn't mean anything in mma. You don't get ranked in mma for what you did in another sport. James Toney doesn't get ranked for his boxing career, he will be ranked solely on his mma career, as Steroideem should. Yes he has big muscles, and is a good striker, but that doesn't rank him high. He's never beaten an elite level. Since his steroid induced growth, he's never fought a guy with a ground game. I don't see how he can be ranked high.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well Fedor was ranked long after he stopped facing top competition so the professionals who actually rank people use the same formula and rank them as such!


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## Rastaman (Feb 25, 2010)

> I don't see that Overeem has done anything at HW. Beating Brett Rogers is no big deal. K-1 kickboxing doesn't mean anything in mma. You don't get ranked in mma for what you did in another sport. James Toney doesn't get ranked for his boxing career, he will be ranked solely on his mma career, as Steroideem should. Yes he has big muscles, and is a good striker, but that doesn't rank him high. He's never beaten an elite level. Since his steroid induced growth, he's never fought a guy with a ground game. I don't see how he can be ranked high.


I see what you're saying for sure. What I'm basically saying is that his striking is easily top 3 in the division, and while his ground game is untested, I think that his newfound strength (definitely roid induced) would help him significantly. We need to see Overeem fight some much better competition, but based solely on his striking ability and immense strength I predict that he would do exceptionally well against most fighters. Is he #1? obviously not, but he's definitely in the top ten. Like I said before, I see him annihilating Werdum and even Fedor. The dream matchup would be him vs. JDS... that would be fireworks.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> I don't think Overeeem should be ranked that high, Fedor should not be ahead of Werdum, but I agree that Barnett is once again legit and should be at least number ten!


I rank Fedor higher becuase i consider him better.
I rank Overeem that high because i believe his hype.
The guy is unbeaten in 3 years almost...and even if his opponents haven't been that good (some - cans), he has destroyed them. Only Buentello made it to the second round and that was at the beggining of "Ubereem".
He has one of the best striking out of the HW Top 10, has a pretty good ground game and is very powerful. He is dangerous. But i would like to see him tested against the UFC elite. And i don't think i am the only one.  I think he would be in line for the belt ...easily.
Oooh...and Barnett. Tons of talent and skill. It's a shame all those qualities are being used/wasted like this.



rockybalboa25 said:


> How is Fedor higher than the guy who just beat him.


Simple! He is better! I gave credit to Werdum, in all those hundreths threads about his fight with Fedor. But i think he is not better than Fedor. No way. Beating Fedor...doesn't automatically make Werdum a better fighter. In that case..why is Werdum higher than JDS, a guy that destroyed Werdum?!


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Even though all the rankings are worthless to discuss.. I would say that this list is the best so far!

I only disagree with Rogers being number 10. All the others are just fine when you consider that you just can not rank the HW devision correctely.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

limba said:


> I rank Fedor higher becuase i consider him better.
> I rank Overeem that high because i believe his hype.
> The guy is unbeaten in 3 years almost...and even if his opponents haven't been that good (some - cans), he has destroyed them. Only Buentello made it to the second round and that was at the beggining of "Ubereem".
> He has one of the best striking out of the HW Top 10, has a pretty good ground game and is very powerful. He is dangerous. But i would like to see him tested against the UFC elite. And i don't think i am the only one.  I think he would be in line for the belt ...easily.
> ...


I understand you think Overeem is good because of potential, until he shows that he can beat a good HW, I'm not convinced. To me Overeem is an unknown, but he hasn't beaten anybody and doesn't deserve to be ranked high. On paper Fedor is better than Werdum, but that's why they fight. Werdum beat him so he outranks him. It's like that in all sports: 2004 Lakers vs Pistons, Douglas vs Tyson, 1984 USA vs USSR hockey. All these were foregone conclusions ahead of time. If an athlete rises up and takes a hold of occasion, than he's better. Werdum should be ranked ahead of Fedor, because he earned it.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I understand you think Overeem is good because of potential, until he shows that he can beat a good HW, I'm not convinced. To me Overeem is an unknown, but he hasn't beaten anybody and doesn't deserve to be ranked high. On paper Fedor is better than Werdum, but that's why they fight. Werdum beat him so he outranks him. It's like that in all sports: 2004 Lakers vs Pistons, Douglas vs Tyson, 1984 USA vs USSR hockey. All these were foregone conclusions ahead of time. If an athlete rises up and takes a hold of occasion, than he's better. Werdum should be ranked ahead of Fedor, because he earned it.



I understand your logic.
But that would mean another thing; JDS should definitely be ranked higher than Werdum. Just think of it: since that fight JDS is on a destruction path. He has destroyed all of his opponents. He should definitely be ahead of Werdum. 

I see these rankings more like in tennis.  Nice comparison, huh?!  You can lose some matches...and still be considered better than your opponent.
PS: imagine if fighters were to fight like tennis players: 100-150 fights/year :laugh:


As far as Overeem is concerned, you make a good point. He is an unknown. But, he has the tools to be up there with the big boys no doubt. He just needs to prove it. That's why i am all for him joining the UFC.
PS: i think he would have ended Brock if he was in Carwin's place.


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## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

Why do people put so much time into rankings????

They mean shit. 

Time and time again a lower ranked fighter has beaten a higher ranked fighter and the other way around. 

Lets just enjoy the fights and stop worrying about who has who ranked where. 


And to be honest the HW division is always the hardest to make rankings for because of the thin talent pool. Or do we all need to be reminded that Andre Arlovski was at one time #2 in the world by beating the likes of well nobody good.


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## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

JimmyJames said:


> Why do people put so much time into rankings????
> 
> They mean shit.
> 
> ...


They are fun, plain and simple. I've said it time and time again, I wish MMAF would create rankings.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

limba said:


> I understand your logic.
> But that would mean another thing; JDS should definitely be ranked higher than Werdum. Just think of it: since that fight JDS is on a destruction path. He has destroyed all of his opponents. He should definitely be ahead of Werdum.
> 
> I see these rankings more like in tennis.  Nice comparison, huh?!  You can lose some matches...and still be considered better than your opponent.
> ...


Dang this is the second sports analogy tonight that I don't really understand. First soccer now tennis. I really don't know how the tennis ranking system works, so I can't comment. Traditionally fighter rankings have been based solely on wins, losses, and who they were to.

PS I think if overeem was in Carwin's place he would have already been on his back being GNP'd.


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## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

UrbanBounca said:


> They are fun, plain and simple. I've said it time and time again, I wish MMAF would create rankings.


They are fun to make but I cant stand all the crying when a fighter is ranked over another fighter. Like Werdum and JDS. Sure JDS beat Werdum, but Werdum just beat the gut that was ranked #1 in the world for like 10 years. Putting him at #2 isnt all that bad, but a lot of people are crying about it. 

In the big picture it means nothing. Rank'em where ever the f#ck you want just dont cry about another persons rankings.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

The Grim doesn't belong in the top 10 but he looked decent against Fedor. The only fight where he looked terrible was against Overeem who you seem to think isn't any good. Nelson doesn't really deserve to be in the top 10 either for winning a reality show filled with cans and beating Struve. Bigfoot hasn't beaten anyone. CroCop should actually be 10 which really shows how weak the division is once you get past the first 6 or so.

How is Overeem an unknown he has had 45 MMA fights? He is definitively the best HW striker in MMA, has a decent top game on the ground, and is mediocre off of his back. Why should Mir or Carwin be ahead of him? Mir turns to shit every time he gets hit and Carwin can't last more than a round and both have fought considerably less talented people over their careers. 

We know way more about Overeem's skills versus talented fighters than pretty much every other heavyweight. He isn't going to look competent to great against the best kickboxers in the world and suddenly get outstruck by Brock Lesnar, fighting doesn't work that way. Strengths and weaknesses in technique are translatable just because Overeem hasn't fought the best HWs in the world doesn't mean we don't know what he is better and worse than them at.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

osmium said:


> The Grim doesn't belong in the top 10 but he looked decent against Fedor. The only fight where he looked terrible was against Overeem who you seem to think isn't any good. Nelson doesn't really deserve to be in the top 10 either for winning a reality show filled with cans and beating Struve. Bigfoot hasn't beaten anyone. CroCop should actually be 10 which really shows how weak the division is once you get past the first 6 or so.
> 
> How is Overeem an unknown he has had 45 MMA fights? He is definitively the best HW striker in MMA, has a decent top game on the ground, and is mediocre off of his back. Why should Mir or Carwin be ahead of him? Mir turns to shit every time he gets hit and Carwin can't last more than a round and both have fought considerably less talented people over their careers.
> 
> We know way more about Overeem's skills versus talented fighters than pretty much every other heavyweight. He isn't going to look competent to great against the best kickboxers in the world and suddenly get outstruck by Brock Lesnar, fighting doesn't work that way. Strengths and weaknesses in technique are translatable just because Overeem hasn't fought the best HWs in the world doesn't mean we don't know what he is better and worse than them at.


Your argument is that Bigfoot hasn't beat anyone, yet the biggest win of Grim's career is against Arlovksi who bigfoot beat.

We don't know what the new steroid induced overeem can do. I'm not saying he will get outstruck by Lesnar, but can he stop Lesnar's takedowns. He's never fought a good wrestler. But if he is the same fighter that he was before than he is not very good. He can't beat top strikers (rua/liddell). He can't beat good ground fighters either (Werdum, NOG, Arona).

Why should Mir or Carwin be ahead of him? Because they have beaten top HWs. He has not. Ranks are earned, and he hasn't earned it.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Your argument is that Bigfoot hasn't beat anyone, yet the biggest win of Grim's career is against Arlovksi who bigfoot beat.
> 
> We don't know what the new steroid induced overeem can do. I'm not saying he will get outstruck by Lesnar, but can he stop Lesnar's takedowns. He's never fought a good wrestler. But if he is the same fighter that he was before than he is not very good. He can't beat top strikers (rua/liddell). He can't beat good ground fighters either (Werdum, NOG, Arona).
> 
> Why should Mir or Carwin be ahead of him? Because they have beaten top HWs. He has not. Ranks are earned, and he hasn't earned it.


I never said whether I thought bigfoot should or shouldn't be ranked ahead of Rogers or who was better. So your comments about that are just made up nonsense.

Overeem beating on Liddel like he was a child for the majority of a fight clearly means he *can't* win that fight. He beat Badr Hari who is more skilled than him and that was shown as Overeem got his ass handed to him in the second fight. Overeem is closer to Badr's skill level than Chuck is to Overeem. 

That isn't how fighting works. You gain an advantage over an opponent in an area by being more skilled than him at it but that isn't a guarantee that you will win every time. Scott Smith isn't a better striker than Cung Le and Chuck isn't a better striker than Overeem flash KOs after getting your ass handed to you aren't demonstrations of superior skill. 

Brandon Vera beat Mir... Seriously, beating Gonzaga, Mir, Kongo, Carwin, or Sylvia isn't anymore impressive than beating Ironhead, Kharitonov, Buentello, or Rogers. None of these guys are incredibly skilled and all of them have massive flaws. We aren't talking about the difference in skill between Houston Alexander and Lyoto Machida here. Mir and Carwin are both coming off of losses also.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

osmium said:


> I never said whether I thought bigfoot should or shouldn't be ranked ahead of Rogers or who was better. So your comments about that are just made up nonsense.
> 
> Overeem beating on Liddel like he was a child for the majority of a fight clearly means he *can't* win that fight. I guess Badr Hari beating the **** out of him means he can't beat Badr Hari. Oh wait he did beat Badr Hari.
> 
> ...


You're right there is no guarantee that being more skilled will win. However Overeem has proven when he fights top competition he is likely to lose. 

Ironhead is has only won 2 out of his last 7. I'm not sure why beating him is impressive. He did Kharitonov which is probably the most impressive HW win of his career. He also lost to him the last time they fought. We already know that Kongo is better than Buentello, so I'll just move on. Do you seriously consider Rogers better than Mir? The guy was the first one to finish NOG. Carwin and Mir are both coming off loses, but both have beaten top contenders (overeem hasn't). Both of their recent losses came to contenders as well.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Show me where I said they were better. I said that beating them is equally as impressive because the skill leven isn't that far apart. The only good fighter Gonzaga has ever beaten is Mirko and he has been finished every time he has fought a decent HW since. So you are saying Carwin has better wins because he beat Mir and only because he beat Mir. The guy who was destroyed by Brandon Vera and is the most inconsistent fighter in the top ten at HW. Mir has won fights against good heavyweights but has also lost several of them in devastating fashion. Overeem's resume is more impressive than Carwin's.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

osmium said:


> Show me where I said they were better. I said that beating them is equally as impressive because the skill leven isn't that far apart. The only good fighter Gonzaga has ever beaten is Mirko and he has been finished every time he has fought a decent HW since. So you are saying Carwin has better wins because he beat Mir and only because he beat Mir. The guy who was destroyed by Brandon Vera and is the most inconsistent fighter in the top ten at HW. Mir has won fights against good heavyweights but has also lost several of them in devastating fashion. Overeem's resume is more impressive than Carwin's.


Everyone knows that Frank had a hard time the first year he came back from the motorcycle accident. That is why he lost to Vera. 

Overeem's only descent HW wins are against Kharitnov (over 4 years ago) and Rogers.

Kharitnov who has only fought 3 times in the last three years. He is 2-1 beating overeem and losing to Monson. 

Rogers only descent win is over Arlovski, so I'd say he and Gonzaga are in the same boat.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

osmium said:


> We know way more about Overeem's skills versus talented fighters than pretty much every other heavyweight. He isn't going to look competent to great against the best kickboxers in the world and suddenly get outstruck by Brock Lesnar, fighting doesn't work that way. Strengths and weaknesses in technique are translatable just because Overeem hasn't fought the best HWs in the world doesn't mean we don't know what he is better and worse than them at.


I agree.



JimmyJames said:


> Sure JDS beat Werdum, but Werdum just beat the gut that was ranked #1 in the world for like 10 years. Putting him at #2 isnt all that bad, but a lot of people are crying about it.
> 
> *In the big picture it means nothing*. Rank'em where ever the f#ck you want just dont cry about another persons rankings.


No crying here.
But i simply cannot rank Werdum higher than JDS. If that fight would have been close, maybe it would have been ok. But it wasn't. 
Werdum isn't the second best HW in the world. NO way! He beat Fedor. Great job. But that doesn't make him better.



rockybalboa25 said:


> We don't know what the new steroid induced overeem can do. I'm not saying he will get *outstruck by Lesnar*, but can he stop Lesnar's takedowns. He's never fought a good wrestler. But if he is the same fighter that he was before than he is not very good. He can't beat top strikers (rua/liddell). He can't beat good ground fighters either (Werdum, NOG, Arona).
> .


Overeem outstruck by Lesnar?! Never. Ever. I can see Overeem destroying Lesnar on the feet. On the ground...i don't know, but i definitely don't see Lesnar tooling Overeem like he did Mir.
And another thing. I don't know why all this talk about Overeem's fights from 4-5 years ago (Rua, Lidell, Nog, Arona..and so on). He is NOT the same fighter. And i am not talking about his skills. When he fought those guys he was nowhere near the size he is now. He was 30-40 lbs lighter. He fought at 220-225lbs. Now he fights at 250-260 lbs. 
Pls tell me it's the same thing. 

I just hope all this HW would fight eachother already. 
Yes...rankings are so much fun.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I don't see Overeem doing better than Mir did against Brock partially because Overeem used to be a lightheavyweight!


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> mmaweekly's HW rankings.
> 
> #1 Heavyweight Fighter in the World: Brock Lesnar
> 
> ...


I'd bump Nogueira and Rogers for Big foot Silva and Nelson. Nog's would be 11th on my list, he'll be 11 on everyone else's after the Mir fight. I'd put Werdum at 3 and JDS at 2 based on resumes and how I think the record is going to look in 5 months. Fedor is 5th he's going to be the favorite against Overeem and they are going to be fighting to take on Werdum. Cain's 4th he's only 8-0 he shouldn't drop like a stone after he loses to Brock like Carwin. 

One more UFC win (against anyone really) and I might put Mirko Cro Cop (5-1-1) in his last six fights on the list.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah Cro Cop is a pretty good fighter, I think he'd earn it!


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

I think he is already there I consider Barry a better win than Arlovski. Plus he has a history of beating good heavyweights unlike Rogers and Bigfoot.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

limba said:


> Overeem outstruck by Lesnar?! Never. Ever. I can see Overeem destroying Lesnar on the feet. On the ground...i don't know, but i definitely don't see Lesnar tooling Overeem like he did Mir.
> And another thing. I don't know why all this talk about Overeem's fights from 4-5 years ago (Rua, Lidell, Nog, Arona..and so on). He is NOT the same fighter. And i am not talking about his skills. When he fought those guys he was nowhere near the size he is now. He was 30-40 lbs lighter. He fought at 220-225lbs. Now he fights at 250-260 lbs.
> Pls tell me it's the same thing.
> 
> ...



First of as I said I'm not saying he would get outstruck by Lesnar, meaning he won't get outstruck by Lesnar. I agree that Overeem is a different fighter, which was my point at the beginning that he is somewhat unknown at this weight. He hasn't fought any top challengers at HW. He's not fought a good wrestler ever. So we have no idea what he's got at this weight class. Without having proven himself I don't think he should be ranked very high.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Did Barry and Arlovski fight each other?


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

osmium said:


> I think he is already there I consider Barry a better win than Arlovski. Plus he has a history of beating good heavyweights unlike Rogers and Bigfoot.


Bigfoot has two former UFC HW champions on his list, just because they are the worst two HW's doesn't mean that they are nobodies. Bigfoot and Rogers will likely fight next and the winner would have earned his spot in the top ten, I guess.

Nelson is going to have two shots at the top ten and a shot at the number one ranking and that guy isn't getting any love. I could see Nelson even being in the top ten with a loss to JDS. If Nelson really brings it and they have an amazing fight both guys could be elevated. I also think I would bet on Nelson to be able to get Carwin on the ground and crucifix him and get the TKO.

Nog/Mir II really pisses me off in the sense that Cro Cop would have made for a such a better fight for both guys. As it is what do you do with the loser or the winner? The winner is not going to be in line for a title shot? If Nog loses is he going to get the Liddell cut? If Mir beats Nog I'm not going to consider it to be a huge win for him, more of the same old Brock, Tank, Wes right place right time win.

Finally make no mistake if Brock beats Cain and JDS the issue isn't "he's the best HW in the world" the issue is "he's the best fighter in the world" or realistically where does he rank on the pound for pound list.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Bigfoot is meeting Sergei Kharantov next!


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

John8204 said:


> Bigfoot has two former UFC HW champions on his list, just because they are the worst two HW's doesn't mean that they are nobodies. Bigfoot and Rogers will likely fight next and the winner would have earned his spot in the top ten, I guess.
> 
> Nelson is going to have two shots at the top ten and a shot at the number one ranking and that guy isn't getting any love. I could see Nelson even being in the top ten with a loss to JDS. If Nelson really brings it and they have an amazing fight both guys could be elevated. I also think I would bet on Nelson to be able to get Carwin on the ground and crucifix him and get the TKO.
> 
> ...


It's not really worth it to even address why beating Ricco and Arlovski at the points he did doesn't really mean anything and why it isn't comparable to CroCop's record in any way.

Nelson recently has lost to Monson and Arlovski, won a reality show filled with almost nothing but cans and beaten Struve so no he doesn't deserve to be in the top 10 if he loses. 

Brock shouldn't be listed in the P4P list if he beats Cain and JDS. He is the largest HW it makes no kind of sense for him to be on a P4P list.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

While Nelson's season was filled with tomato cans, he didn't actually fight any of them. Justin Wren destroyed Wes Sims and will likely get another shot, and the other three guys he fought all got signed. McSweeney is still in the UFC, we don't know why but Dana loves him. Kimbo went one and one and I think he was somewhat unfairly cut. I've seen some people talking about giving Brendan Schaub a top ten fight. You also have to look at quality of wins, IIRC Nelson beat all of them in the first round. 

Cro Cop couldn't finish Perosh and didn't look that great (many thought that was his last fight). Wins over Choi Hong Man, Pat Barry, and Mostapha Al Turk don't really negate his loses to Gonzaga and Kongo. 

I feel like next fight, once half the top ten lose and when one or two of them gets killed Cro Cop will move up.

Pound for Pound is also about being the best fighter in the world, the entire HW division is currently off of it to me that's crazy. Once Brock reaches his 8th fight he deserves to be put on the list even if it's meant as a divider from the Koschecks, Fitches, Machidas, and Evans.

Sergei Kharantov/Big Foot fight hasn't been set up yet, wikipedia has it 50/50 he's fighting him or Arlovski. Begs the question who top 10 HW in the world Brett Rogers will be fighting.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Nelson is going to meet JDS so he is pretty legit!


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> *First of as I said I'm not saying he would get outstruck by Lesnar, meaning he won't get outstruck by Lesnar*. I agree that Overeem is a different fighter, which was my point at the beginning that he is somewhat unknown at this weight. He hasn't fought any top challengers at HW. He's not fought a good wrestler ever. So we have no idea what he's got at this weight class. Without having proven himself I don't think he should be ranked very high.


My bad there.
And i think he would kill Brock on the feet. Then maybe get taken down. But i could see Brock catching one of Overeem's knees in the face. And, if Brock would take Overeem down, i don't think Brock would do to him the same thing he did to Mir or Carwin.

But...after all that we've said...don't you wanna see Overeem in the UFC? I know i want it.


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## Rastaman (Feb 25, 2010)

limba said:


> My bad there.
> And i think he would kill Brock on the feet. Then maybe get taken down. But i could see Brock catching one of Overeem's knees in the face. And, if Brock would take Overeem down, i don't think Brock would do to him the same thing he did to Mir or Carwin.
> 
> But...after all that we've said...don't you wanna see Overeem in the UFC? I know i want it.


More than any other fighter, I want to see Ubereem in the UFC. Moreso than Fedor, Dan Henderson, Hector Lombard, anybody.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Rastaman said:


> More than any other fighter, I want to see Ubereem in the UFC. Moreso than Fedor, Dan Henderson, Hector Lombard, anybody.


Me too. I want to see Overeem in the UFC and he's certainly 1/4 of the headache Fedor is to make it happen. Everybody wins with Overeem.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Rastaman said:


> More than any other fighter, I want to see Ubereem in the UFC. Moreso than Fedor, Dan Henderson, Hector Lombard, anybody.


Me toooo! So badly.. he is top 5 for me already. He needs to be in the UFC and stop his K-1 trips.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

limba said:


> My bad there.
> And i think he would kill Brock on the feet. Then maybe get taken down. But i could see Brock catching one of Overeem's knees in the face. And, if Brock would take Overeem down, i don't think Brock would do to him the same thing he did to Mir or Carwin.
> 
> But...after all that we've said...don't you wanna see Overeem in the UFC? I know i want it.


Mir is way better off his back than Overeem. We just don't know how Overeem would fare against a good wrestler, because he's never fought one.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> Me too. I want to see Overeem in the UFC and he's certainly 1/4 of the headache Fedor is to make it happen. Everybody wins with Overeem.


:thumbsup:



Rastaman said:


> More than any other fighter, I want to see Ubereem in the UFC. Moreso than Fedor, Dan Henderson, Hector Lombard, anybody.


:thumbsup:



BobbyCooper said:


> Me toooo! So badly.. he is top 5 for me already. He needs to be in the UFC and stop his K-1 trips.


:thumbsup:



rockybalboa25 said:


> Mir is way better off his back than Overeem. We just don't know how Overeem would fare against a good wrestler, because he's never fought one.


Mir is good. He has a great jits, but against Brock he looked like a doll. Brock was in total control. Maybe because of his superior strength. 
And yes..Overeem hasb't faced any good wrestlers. But has Brock faced a striker like Overeem?! For Brock's game plan to work - taking people down - he needs to come close and grab Overeem. And that's not an easy task. And even if he cculd take Overeem down..i still think he would have trouble imposing his will like he did against Mir. Overeem is much stronger than Mir.

Like Bobby, VolcomX311 and Rastaman stated - Overeem needs to be in the UFC. And i think if Dana would just show him the money and let him fight in K1 also, it would happen in a heart bit. I saw once an interview with Overeem and he said that money is very importsnt for him, that's why he fought a lot in K1.
But Dana doesn't see in him huge Marketing potential and maybe that's what it's keeping him away for now.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well Carwin was a pretty good striker and Brock beat him. The only thing though is that Carwin didn't have a kickboxing background!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

limba said:


> Mir is good. He has a great jits, but against Brock he looked like a doll. Brock was in total control. Maybe because of his superior strength.
> And yes..Overeem hasb't faced any good wrestlers. But has Brock faced a striker like Overeem?! For Brock's game plan to work - taking people down - he needs to come close and grab Overeem. And that's not an easy task. And even if he cculd take Overeem down..i still think he would have trouble imposing his will like he did against Mir. Overeem is much stronger than Mir.
> 
> Like Bobby, VolcomX311 and Rastaman stated - Overeem needs to be in the UFC. And i think if Dana would just show him the money and let him fight in K1 also, it would happen in a heart bit. I saw once an interview with Overeem and he said that money is very importsnt for him, that's why he fought a lot in K1.
> But Dana doesn't see in him huge Marketing potential and maybe that's what it's keeping him away for now.


It's about closing the distance. Overeem might have could takedown defense, we don't know. Strength is not as important technique on your back. Werdum proved that against Fedor. You can be the strongest man alive, but if you don't have the BJJ or wrestling ability you're not getting back up. Also Overeem has never fought in the cage. He would definitely need a few fights to acclimate himself to it before fighting Brock.

Is Dana the obstacle to Overeem's UFC career? I don't know if Overeem is ready to fight in the USA full time. Does he need to keep up his roid regiment. I agree Overeem has some marketing potential. A fight between him and JDS would be a great matchup between good strikers. If he doesn't fight in UFC the only fights I'm really interested in Strikeforce are Werdum, Fedor, and a rubber match between Khartinov.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Overeem has fought in the cage so you're wrong on that one!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Overeem has fought in the cage so you're wrong on that one!


You're right. He did fight Paul Buentello and Brett Rogers, two guys who stand in the middle of the cage and throw punches. He's going to have to learn how to fend off a fighter that presses him against the cage.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah he'll have to defend his belt a few more times!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah he'll have to defend his belt a few more times!


What does that have to do with the cage? He has to learn how to fight in the cage. A few title defenses if they are not against guys who use the cage isn't going to help him against, Brock or Cain.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok, he needs to do some more matches in that DREAM cage!


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> It's about closing the distance. Overeem might have could takedown defense, we don't know. Strength is not as important technique on your back. Werdum proved that against Fedor. You can be the strongest man alive, but if you don't have the BJJ or wrestling ability you're not getting back up. Also Overeem has never fought in the cage. *He would definitely need a few fights to acclimate himself to it before fighting Brock.*
> 
> Is Dana the obstacle to Overeem's UFC career? I don't know if Overeem is ready to fight in the USA full time. Does he need to keep up his roid regiment. I agree Overeem has some marketing potential. A fight between him and JDS would be a great matchup between good strikers. If he doesn't fight in UFC the only fights I'm really interested in Strikeforce are Werdum, Fedor, and a rubber match between Khartinov.


Of course. 
I don't think he would sign with the UFC and get a straight shot at Brock or a big gun.
Maybe a welcome-fight against someone like: Kongo, Duffee, Barry or Gonzaga. And from then on...


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well there was a point he was considering signing with the UFC, but he chose to be with the non-UFC world!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

limba said:


> Of course.
> I don't think he would sign with the UFC and get a straight shot at Brock or a big gun.
> Maybe a welcome-fight against someone like: Kongo, Duffee, Barry or Gonzaga. And from then on...


I would hate if it was Gonzaga, because what does that prove. He gets tapped on the chin and it's over. I think Kongo is an interesting matchup for him as a first fight.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah cause they are both big, black and from Europe!:thumb02:


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah cause they are both big, black and from Europe!:thumb02:


What does them being black have to do with anything?


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

It's just something funny I threw in!:thumb02:


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> It's just something funny I threw in!:thumb02:


Wasn't really funny, just a weird thing to say.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

My bad, my sense of humor is pretty bad!


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> My bad, my sense of humor is pretty bad!


Naaah...
Let's put it this way: it would be a fight between the biggest and strongest European HWs.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

limba said:


> Naaah...
> Let's put it this way: it would be a fight between the biggest and strongest European HWs.


I guess that is a good way of putting it!raise01:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Kongo isn't any kind of competition for Overeem. The Reem would just beat him down standing until Kongo tries one of his crappy takedowns and gets instantly subbed with a guillotine.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

osmium said:


> Kongo isn't any kind of competition for Overeem. The Reem would just beat him down standing until Kongo tries one of his crappy takedowns and gets instantly subbed with a guillotine.


Yup...i know.
OK, but seriously.
If Overeem were to sign with the UFC, who would you like to see him fight first?


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

He could face James McSweeney!:thumbsup:


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

limba said:


> Yup...i know.
> OK, but seriously.
> If Overeem were to sign with the UFC, who would you like to see him fight first?


Cro-Cop or Mir, Cro-Cop because of the Dream no contest, Mir because the UFC loves to throw Mir at new guys. First fight should be a test at seeing what sort of draw he is, where is skill level is at. And if he beats either one of those guys and is impressive in doing so, it would be fair to give the guy a shot at the title.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

And if Mir were to loose he would basically be on the back burner!


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> And if Mir were to loose he would basically be on the back burner!


Getting squashed by Brock and Shane put him in the back burner, losing to Overeem means dropping down to fight top 20 guys or LHW's.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I seriously don't think Mir could make 205!:thumbsdown:


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

That's nothing, have you seen Fight! Magazine's rankings? BJ Penn is apparently the 6th ranked LW in the world.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Ok here it is:


Readers Choice

* 1. Georges St-Pierre
* 
* 2. Anderson Silva
* 
* 3. Mauricio Rua
* 
* 4. Brock Lesnar
* 
* 5. Jose Aldo
* 

view full readers choice rankings »

Heavyweight (265)

* 1. Brock Lesnar
* 7.184
* 2. Cain Velasquez
* 6.689
* 3. Fedor Emelianenko
* 6.627
* 4. Fabricio Werdum
* 6.360
* 5. Alistair Overeem
* 6.231

view full heavyweight rankings »
Light Heavyweight (205)

* 1. Mauricio Rua
* 6.610
* 2. Rashad Evans
* 6.349
* 3. Lyoto Machida
* 6.205
* 4. Muhammed Lawal
* 5.909
* 5. Randy Couture
* 5.652

view full light heavyweight rankings »

Middleweight (185)

* 1. Chael Sonnen
* 6.724
* 2. Anderson Silva
* 6.717
* 3. Jake Shields
* 6.500
* 4. Vitor Belfort
* 5.931
* 5. Nate Marquardt
* 5.724

view full middleweight rankings »
Welterweight (170)

* 1. Georges St-Pierre
* 7.028
* 2. Josh Koscheck
* 5.996
* 3. Thiago Alves
* 5.971
* 4. Nick Diaz
* 5.861
* 5. Dan Hardy
* 5.617

view full welterweight rankings »

Lightweight (155)

* 1. Frankie Edgar
* 6.468
* 2. Gilbert Melendez
* 6.159
* 3. Shinya Aoki
* 6.072
* 4. George Sotiropoulos
* 5.896
* 5. Benson Henderson
* 5.552

view full lightweight rankings »
Featherweight (145)

* 1. Bibiano Fernandes
* 5.367
* 2. Jose Aldo
* 5.198
* 3. Michihiro Omigawa
* 5.018
* 4. Josh Grispi
* 4.877
* 5. Marlon Sandro
* 4.729

view full featherweight rankings »

Bantamweight (135)

* 1. Dominic Cruz
* 5.041
* 2. Joseph Benavidez
* 4.678
* 3. Brian Bowles
* 4.314
* 4. Scott Jorgensen
* 3.992
* 5. Wagnney Fabiano
* 3.965

view full bantamweight rankings »


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Nefilim777 said:


> Ok here it is:
> 
> 
> Readers Choice
> ...


O M G !!!
That's disturbing!
How the hell?!! What the hell!?
Is this for real? Seriously? The most part of these rankings, it' s like they're from another paralel universe. Bizzaro World!!


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

John8204 said:


> Cro-Cop or Mir, Cro-Cop because of the Dream no contest, Mir because the UFC loves to throw Mir at new guys. First fight should be a test at seeing what sort of draw he is, where is skill level is at. And if he beats either one of those guys and is impressive in doing so, it would be fair to give the guy a shot at the title.


Mir?!
Yes! Cro Cop? Also yes?!
But Mir sounds really good!:thumbsup:


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah Mir would be a really good test!:thumbsup:


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

limba said:


> O M G !!!
> That's disturbing!
> How the hell?!! What the hell!?
> Is this for real? Seriously? The most part of these rankings, it' s like they're from another paralel universe. Bizzaro World!!


Yup, bizarre indeed, I don't get it. Apparently people have written in to complain but they stand by them. Insane really.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Insane in what way?


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> Insane in what way?


Well for one BJ Penn is ranked 6th in the world. Then Chael Sonnen is ranked ahead of Silva. Can't see the problem there?


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Nefilim777 said:


> Well for one BJ Penn is ranked 6th in the world. Then Chael Sonnen is ranked ahead of Silva. Can't see the problem there?


Yes.
And King Mo no. 4 LHW, Couture is no. 5!!!
Hardy no. 5 WW in front of Fitch for example.
Bibiano NO. 1 FW, and in mmaweakly's rankings he isn't in the TOP 10 !!!:confused02:

This is BIZZARRRE!!!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

HW-Fedor shouldn't be ranked higher than the guy who just beat him. 
LHW-Mo Lawal and couture shouldn't be top 5.
MW-Sonnen obviously shouldn't outrank Silva
WW-Alves, Diaz, and Hardy shouldn't outrank Fitch.
LW-Sotiropolus and Ben Henderson shouldn't be top 5.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Wait, who's rankings are these?


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> Wait, who's rankings are these?


Fight Magazine's.
but i think these are the readers' choice.
They suck!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah clearly they suck!:thumbsdown:


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah clearly they suck!:thumbsdown:


That's.......what..........was..........just.........said.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

This proves that fans don't know how to rank fighters!


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

limba said:


> Fight Magazine's.
> but i think these are the readers' choice.
> They suck!


They're not actually, FIGHT! Actually claims they're based on computer 'statistics', whatever that means. Perhaps we should all e-mail and ask them.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Nefilim777 said:


> They're not actually, FIGHT! Actually claims they're based on computer 'statistics', whatever that means. Perhaps we should all e-mail and ask them.


Annyway...imo they are the worst i've ever seen!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Statistics in a match don't really prove anything!:thumbsdown:


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> Statistics in a match don't really prove anything!:thumbsdown:


Agreed! 
And in many cases rankings don't prove nuthin' also. But they're fun


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah but rankings give people a rough idea of where the layout of the land is at present!:thumbsup:


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