# Pound for Pound king? TDD?



## BrianRClover (Jan 4, 2008)

First off, I'm not trying to start yet another P4P debate here, I'm curious about a specific skill.

With my flight attendent girlfriend out of town on the hallmarkiest of all hallmark holidays I spent most of the day yesterday looking up and watching Fedor fights.

I've been watching The UFC since UFC 3 and have been a fan for years, but for some stupid reason (I admit) I never got into Pride deeply except to follow my lifetime favorite Anderson Silva, so I'm just now catching up on my Fedorism.
I'll first say, I'm with everyone else, I think the guy is a cyborg. He's incredible to watch, a freakisly strong man with knockout power in his pinky fingers, and an amazing submission game... I actually beleive he's a prototype Terminator. A classy guy too, I wish I'd known more about him than his name several years ago.

On the other hand Anderson Silva has been my favorite fighter for the last 6 years or so. My point to this thread is not a Fedor love fest, or once again me saying Anderson is the true pound 4 pound king.

I've actually come around to a new way of thinking that has made the debate even more confusing for me.

Most people come down on Anderson for poor take down defense. What I noticed yesterday was that Fedor is the exact same way, he goes down pretty easily, but no one ever faults him for it. Probably because everytime he gets taken down he reverses or locks in an armbar, but for the most part so does Anderson... So I'm wondering if it's so much poor TDD, or just the fact that they don't mind being taken down because they are both confident in their ground game.

Either way the whole thing has got me wondering if the GSP train is correct, because he does seem to have the more complete game if you factor in TDD to a great degree, as everyone seems to do. I truly have decided to stand on the fence on this one, dirty politition style. It truly is a debate that will never be solved. I guess my final point is, Anderson may not showcase great TDD, nor does Fedor, but maybe that's not a weakness at all... I respect the hell out of this board and would love to have everyone's thougths.

Anyway, just a few points I thought I'd throw out there.
My two cents
-BrianRClover


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## TERMINATOR (Jul 6, 2008)

All outstanding and the best mma fighters of all. IMO best TDD has to go to GSP.


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

Good post:thumbsup:


In Fedor's case, I would say he wants the fight to go to the ground, he is arguably the best ground fighter in MMA, if not the best then definetly in the top 5. I wouldn't say his TDD is bad, but but it's probably the weakest part of his game. Anderson Silva has a really good ground game but not on the same level as Fedor IMO. I think his TDD lacks a bit because of his lanky frame but overall it's not terrible.

IMO GSP has the best TDD in MMA, Chuck Lidell, Randy Couture, Henderson, Koscheck and Rampage are others that immediatly come to mind as having really good TDD.


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## BrianRClover (Jan 4, 2008)

Robb2140 said:


> Good post:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> In Fedor's case, I would say he wants the fight to go to the ground, he is arguably the best ground fighter in MMA, if not the best then definetly in the top 5. I wouldn't say his TDD is bad, but but it's probably the weakest part of his game. Anderson Silva has a really good ground game but not on the same level as Fedor IMO. I think his TDD lacks a bit because of his lanky frame but overall it's not terrible.
> ...


No doubt about it. As much as I hate to say, because I can't stand the guy, BJ is also top 5 or at least 10 in TDD, despite his showing against GSP.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Cro Cop has the best TDD. 

..Mirko.. ..I miss you.




..Anyways. I see GSP definitely having the best TDD, as well as having more wins over top 10 guys than both Fedor and Anderson, not to mention crushing a pound for pound fighter in Penn(who has great TDD himself). 

Fedor doesn't have a problem being taken to the ground, as he finishes guys there easily. Anderson.. not so much. He finished Travis, but that was after being mounted and controlled for a while.

If you go by a complete game, it's difficult to say between Fedor and GSP. GSP has better TDD, but Fedor is better with submissions and can work off his back very well, where as I've never personally seen GSP do any type of work off his back other than trying to stand up/sweep. 

Good thread.


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## cdnbaron (Jan 17, 2007)

The way I see things with Fedor, is that he just sort of lets the fight go however it's going to go until he decides he wants to finish it.

The only time he really imposes his will on an entire fight is when he feels the fighter he's facing actually poses a challenge to him (Big Nog, Cro Cop, and to a lesser extent Tim Sylvia). Other than those four (and a half) fights, Fedor is really the type of fighter who just goes with the flow and only turns it on when he decides to finish a fight.

I know it's hard to say that a top-level mixed martial artist can just "flip the switch," but I think over time Fedor has shown this ability and it's pretty awe-inspiring.

Back on topic...

GSP has by far the best TDD in MMA. I assume everyone has seen these fights, but Hughes 2 (AIR SPRAWL!), Hughes 3 (Superman Punch deep into Hughes' clinch resulting in no takedown & when Hughes tries to ankle pick him against the cage), Koscheck (Koscheck runs across the cage with a single, switches to a double and GSP puts him on his back!) are some of the most insane things I've seen when it comes to TDD in MMA. He also shows great TDD against Sherk and Fitch. Dude is just unreal when it comes to deciding where a fight takes place, which is one of the biggest keys to being a dominating fighter.


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## Split (Sep 28, 2006)

cdnbaron said:


> The way I see things with Fedor, is that he just sort of lets the fight go however it's going to go until he decides he wants to finish it.
> 
> The only time he really imposes his will on an entire fight is when he feels the fighter he's facing actually poses a challenge to him (Big Nog, Cro Cop, and to a lesser extent Tim Sylvia). Other than those four (and a half) fights, Fedor is really the type of fighter who just goes with the flow and only turns it on when he decides to finish a fight.
> 
> ...


I disagree, and his last fight is the perfect example of it.

A few years ago, everybody was just too amazed at what he could do in a ring to look at any possible flaws, but today, i somehow see more clearly.

Fedor is a finisher. He goes for the kill, EVERYTIME. Look at him vs AA.. every shots he threw was a KO punch, but NONE connected, and AA was winning, if not dominating, until 1 PUNCH was enough. 

Saying he flip a switch is not right in my opinion, he rathers turns off his opponent's switch for good, after attempting non-stop.

The only fight i can remember where he did not do that was against Cro Cop, probably to not get caught by a LHK.. 

In any other fights(or almost), he is always going for that huge punch, and if it doesnt work, boom you are down and getting beat the crap out of..

He simply goes for the finish all the time, and it has to be freaking scary when you face that guy.. 

As for his takedown defense, i dont think he was "tested" enough in his career, as opposed to GSP, or anybody else you can think of that has great TDD..

Nogueira has never been known for great takedowns, so if anything, what Fedor did to him that was great was that he avoided all the submissions attempts by, at the time, the best BJJ fighter in MMA.

I dont really can think of anybody in any fight that actually tested him a lot on his TDD.. or his ground game on the bottom for that matter, because he rarely gets close to having to do either.. Does that make him a great TDD guy? not really if you ask me, doesnt make him weak either(on the contrary)


GSP is probably the best, but what about Chuck Liddell? He got worse standing, but still wasnt taken down in any fight from Rampage to today(if i remember correctly).. but again, like Fedor, i cant recall anybody who tried either.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Split said:


> I disagree, and his last fight is the perfect example of it.
> 
> A few years ago, everybody was just too amazed at what he could do in a ring to look at any possible flaws, but today, i somehow see more clearly.
> 
> ...


A few notes:

1. He wasn't getting "dominated" by Arlovski, it was 3 minutes or so of fighting, only a few exchanges, Fedor was able to avoid almost all damage and wasn't rocked or hurt in the fight, there was 1 clinch where fedor had Arlovski against the ropes almost the whole duration of the clinch, and then Fedor knocked him out. Hardly "dominating", although Arlovski did get the better of most of the excahnges, the few that were there. Arlovski is the better striker in general, after all.

2. His ground game from the bottom has been tested, each time he gets there he ends up sweeping/subbing the person on top of him: Kevin, Coleman x2, Nog(used a sweep in their first fight), Choi(I know, but still), etc. 

3. I agree with your points on his TDD, I don't think it's "great" myself, but neither are his striking or submission game. He's just very, very, very good at transitioning between them and being able to stay calm and capitalize on mistakes, opportunities, etc. That's what makes him such a great fighter.

4. I agree with you on his style as well, he is usually aggressive and looks for the finish.

GSP has the best TDD in MMA, I don't have any doubts, he is far and beyond most in MMA in this aspect.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

GSP and that ends this discussion.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Michael Carson said:


> A few notes:
> 
> 1. He wasn't getting "dominated" by Arlovski, it was 3 minutes or so of fighting, only a few exchanges, Fedor was able to avoid almost all damage and wasn't rocked or hurt in the fight, there was 1 clinch where fedor had Arlovski against the ropes almost the whole duration of the clinch, and then Fedor knocked him out. Hardly "dominating", although Arlovski did get the better of most of the excahnges, the few that were there. Arlovski is the better striker in general, after all.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything except this. Fedor's ground game is great, he can sub you with ease off his back and on-top. What truly separates him is his ability to transition from strikes, to passing, to submissions. It's seamless, and it's something GSP has worked on diligently to great effect as well.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> Cro Cop has the best TDD.
> 
> ..Mirko.. ..I miss you.
> 
> ...



Thank god someone still loves Mirko like me  Also Scrubs is an amazing show i own seasons 1-6. Gsp i think has the most complete game in all of MMA.

He has

Good Standup
Superb TDD
Superb TD
Superb Speed
Superb Strength
Superb Conditioning
Good/Great Submission's
Superb Work Ethic

Not sure how he does off his back but in the Kos fight he showed amazing wrestling plus i think Kos put him on his back and GSP stood right back up.(i think)


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## Zemelya (Sep 23, 2007)

I was impressed with BJs TDD in his last fight... that was pretty good especially since he was - tired already and defending from stronger/bigger man with great TD


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