# B.J. Penn Files Complaint Against Georges St Pierre



## Walker (May 27, 2007)

> B.J. Penn Files Complaint Against Georges St Pierre
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/2/745008/b-j-penn-files-complaint-a

Well now it looks to be investigated as a formal complaint from BJ. I won't say anything because I will wait to see what comes of this. As it goes forward I'm sure many people will throw stuff out whether true or untrue- either way after this investigation is over I hope this will be resolved fairly and accurately.


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

Wow. Just Wow


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

You know I'm glad because this can't just be swept under the rug. GSP's corner clearly put vaseline on his face then rub his chest then put more on his face and then rubbed his back. I don't think it impacted the fight but it's against the rules and it needs to be looked into.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I dont think anything malicious was done by GSP or Jackson but watching the video of the vasaline being applied he is putting it right on the shoulder blades where BJ tries to clasp his legs over his opponents back, I think there was some level of malicious intent involved.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

This won't help BJ, and that shouldn't be the goal imo.

This will hopefully put GSP, and the entire sport on notice to make sure things stay on the up and up. It helps no one from the past, but it should benefit all fighters in the future.

Rules are rules, and this should go through the motions....whatever that may be.


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> You know I'm glad because this can't just be swept under the rug. GSP's corner clearly put vaseline on his face then rub his chest then put more on his face and then rubbed his back. I don't think it impacted the fight but it's against the rules and it needs to be looked into.





Toxic said:


> I dont think anything malicious was done by GSP or Jackson but watching the video of the vasaline being applied he is putting it right on the shoulder blades where BJ tries to clasp his legs over his opponents back, I think there was some level of malicious intent involved.


I don't mean to be a prick but either you guys have BJ's balls attached to your forehead that you can't see or you are "boyscouts" but I don't see how because nothing done here was with malicious intent.

Now I know I probably shouldn't be the one to speak on this being I'm a GSP fan and I'm going to be called a fanbody for coming to his defense.

But seriously watch the fight http://www.mma-core.com/videos/_Georges_St_Pierre_vs_BJ_Penn_II_UFC_94_Part_1?vid=10003151&tid=100 and not just the gifs. Phil has the vaseline on the top of his left hand where he applies it with his right hand. Afterwards he rubs st pierres back with his left hand while tapping his chest with his right [applying] hand.

And even the director of the athletic commission (keith kizer) acknowledged that is was a miniscule amount and would not have affected the fight and he even had the guy from the NSAC remove it with a towel.

I suppose that you guys have gone deep inside St. Pierre's camps and training rituals to know that what he is doing is in fact bullshit and done with the intention to gain unfair advantages. 

While greasing is in fact cheating, this nobody can argue, but who the hell are you guys to say that's what their intention was?

I highly doubt that a guy like St. Pierre one if the most respectful, humble and honest ambassadors for the sport would resort to cheating much less try to lie if he was caught, and Greg Jackson one of the premier trainers in the game would lie when asked what happened.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

I'm glad it is being investigated because if it is true, he is no better than a guy that does Roids.

However, it has no bearing on any fight prior to this unless some sort of diffinitive judgement can be established, and I don't see how there could be.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

i really hate that this is what we're talking about....

wish this would just go away....


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Everyone knows you don't rub vaseline on your body. It is cheating and they broke the rules. 

Keith Kizer also said that they broke the rules and that it isn't acceptable.

This is an issue sweeping it under the rug is stupid. Do I think it mattered? No.

But it needs to be looked into because a rule was broken.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

southpaw447 said:


> I don't mean to be a prick but either you guys have BJ's balls attached to your forehead that you can't see or you are "boyscouts" but I don't see how because nothing done here was with malicious intent.
> 
> Now I know I probably shouldn't be the one to speak on this being I'm a GSP fan and I'm going to be called a fanbody for coming to his defense.
> 
> ...


To me its were he is rubbing his back, for breathing (I dont know anything about it) but I would think it would be the center of the back below the shoulder blades, not directly on the upper back on the shoulder blades, you tell me to watch it but before I watched I just assumed it was an honest mistake, it wasnt till I rewatched him applying it that I started to think it was malicious, I dont feel it effected the fight but I do think there was an attempt to.


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## Synyster (May 28, 2007)

I don't understand how everyone thinks this wouldn't impact the fight. Imagine tug a war with a rope & your half of the rope is greased up & the other guys half isn't, whose going to win? Now it was clear that GSP was winning the stand up, but when it got to the ground you could tell Penn was having problems he usually wouldn't have, & yes I know GSP is a bad ass & He prolly would've KO'd BJ, but Greasing is a very affective way to nullify a ground fighter. I would feel the same way if it were vice-versa.


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

You people act like a dab of vaseline no bigger than the size of the tip of my pinkie finger, is some magical substance that's going to make you a ground fighting gaurd passing machine. 

I think maybe if it was half a jar of Vaseline we'd have something to argue here. But a dime sized amount possible even smaller, just residue spread out over the chest, delt, and upperback area is a significant way to nullify BJ's guard? 

***** OFF!!!!!!!*


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

Rules are Rules. 

Everyone was was all on bored against sherk when he unknowingly took things that were against the rules and everyone was saying that it is against the rules and that it was right that they were going against him. but know that it is GSP and Greg Jackson everyone is like oh now just forget it.....

I am a huge fan of GSP and a even bigger fan of Greg Jackson who is my second favorite figure in MMA and a great guy in which I have had communications with in the past. 

Now do I think Greg Jackson would have anything to do with this or even gsp for that matter nope, but I am also a fan and my views are biased. Do I think it should be looked into, Yeppers, rules were broken and there for should be looked into. 

Do I think it affected the fight with BJ Penn I could argue both ways on this situation, is that the point nope, simple fact is rules were broken weather knowingly or unknowingly. 

and any people that are posting that this should not be looked into I say to you this I am a bored person at the moment and I have the time to go back to the sherk threads and pull post so dont be a hypocrite


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## JT42 (Dec 31, 2006)

I think it is interesting solely b/c if they find GSP guilty and fine him then likely there will be a call for a rematch. Does BJ REALLY want a rematch? 

I agree with others that I dont think it impacted the fight but I would be suprised to see BJ ask for a rematch. However that seems like the logical thing if this becomes a fine or suspension or something. 

Also for the record I think its obvious the rules were broken but I highly doubt it was done with malicious intent.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

Synyster said:


> I don't understand how everyone thinks this wouldn't impact the fight. Imagine tug a war with a rope & your half of the rope is greased up & the other guys half isn't, whose going to win? Now it was clear that GSP was winning the stand up, but when it got to the ground you could tell Penn was having problems he usually wouldn't have, & yes I know GSP is a bad ass & He prolly would've KO'd BJ, but Greasing is a very affective way to nullify a ground fighter. I would feel the same way if it were vice-versa.


It would effect the fight if it was applied intentionally to create an obvious advantage and thus becoming cheating. GSP was also posturing up to avoid the rubber guard- whether BJ was ineffective due to that or the "supposed" cheating that is the crux of the matter. We'll have to see how this plays out and is resolved.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

southpaw447 said:


> You people act like a dab of vaseline no bigger than the size of the tip of my pinkie finger, is some magical substance that's going to make you a ground fighting gaurd passing machine.
> 
> I think maybe if it was half a jar of Vaseline we'd have something to argue here. But a dime sized amount possible even smaller, just residue spread out over the chest, delt, and upperback area is a significant way to nullify BJ's guard?
> 
> ***** OFF!!!!!!!*


The rules are the rules don't break them and you won't have a problem. Whether it made a difference doesn't matter they broke the rules and it needs to be looked into.


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

I hope it's a rematch. I wouldn't mind seeing him beat the shit out of Penn again.


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## Robopencil (Feb 7, 2007)

If you're trying to cheat you don't do it when you know there's a cameraman right next to you. And then do it again after you've been "caught", 2 NSAC employees are standing on either side of you, and there's a cameraman right next to you AGAIN.


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## LCRaiders (Apr 7, 2008)

It's a shame things are turning out this way but BJ will always be one of the greatest hands down.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

southpaw447 said:


> You people act like a dab of vaseline no bigger than the size of the tip of my pinkie finger, is some magical substance that's going to make you a ground fighting gaurd passing machine.
> 
> I think maybe if it was half a jar of Vaseline we'd have something to argue here. But a dime sized amount possible even smaller, just residue spread out over the chest, delt, and upperback area is a significant way to nullify BJ's guard?
> 
> ***** OFF!!!!!!!*


No your acting like there is nothing wrong, you assume the minute everyone doest share your opinion on the matter is some imbred jerk off with a grade 3 education, nobody is saying that GSP didnt earn the win or wasnt the better fighter, just because GSP is the better fighter doesnt mean one of his cornerman didnt act in good faith, nobody is attacking GSP or trying to say the vasaline is why BJ lost but it was a bullshit move by GSP's corner man and they are the ones in the wrong I think you need to get GSP's nuts out of your mouth for a second and look at it objectively because I have a strong feeling if you werent such a GSP fan boy you probably wouldnt be defending him so much, for the record Im a BJ fan but Im also a huge GSP fan.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Akiyama is considered a cheater when he put lotion on before a fight in front of a official.

It's just something you don't do. You don't rub vaseline on your fighters body everyone knows that.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

there won't be a rematch

this fight is over regardless of what happens....i don't want to see bj go up in weight again until he defends the belt 5 times....

and i think he'll probably retire after his next fight or two


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I'm not sure BJ would really even want a rematch. I think this has more to do with GSP breaking the rules and them looking for punishment for that?


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## Synyster (May 28, 2007)

I saw video of Nurse applying Vaseline with both hands under GSP's arms, Which can definitely nullify BJ's guard. Watch all of the videos of it, it was clearly more than a dab on the back


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

JT42 said:


> I think it is interesting solely b/c if they find GSP guilty and fine him then likely there will be a call for a rematch. Does BJ REALLY want a rematch?
> 
> I agree with others that I dont think it impacted the fight but I would be suprised to see BJ ask for a rematch. However that seems like the logical thing if this becomes a fine or suspension or something.
> 
> Also for the record I think its obvious the rules were broken but I highly doubt it was done with malicious intent.


I actually think this was why it took as long as it did for BJ to decide Im not sure he wants the rematch as much as he is angered by an attempt to give GSP a an unfair advantage and wants it to have its day to prevent it in the future.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> You know I'm glad because this can't just be swept under the rug. GSP's corner clearly put vaseline on his face then rub his chest then put more on his face and then rubbed his back. I don't think it impacted the fight but it's against the rules and it needs to be looked into.


It may not have made a difference in the fight, it probably wouldn't have. GSP clearly dominated. However, BJ's jitz is nasty and who knows if he could have sunk in a submission if GSP wasn't slippery.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

While I agree that the issue does indeed need to be addressed, I do find it hard to believe that this was malicious, or intentional. Jackson and St. Pierre are respected figures in the MMA world. Would they really risk it all over something as silly as greasing, especially in the middle of a fight? I mean, Jackson makes a point... with all of the cameras, fans, and officials around, is his corner really going to attempt cheating? And I have to have a chuckle at people posting videos, claiming GSP is being greased up while *officials* are hovering over him, having heard complaints of the illegal practice. Yes... I'm certain Jackson and his corner *continued* to apply vaseline, despite the presence of officials. Anyone whom could possibly believe that simply isn't thinking straight. Again, the matter need be dealt with, but there is nothing here that could convince me that this was a malicious act, or that GSP has been fooling us all for years, or that Greg Jackson and his camp are as crooked as (insert something exceptionally crooked, here).


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Good. Investigate it. Let's get the final word from the commission and settle this once & for all.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Akiyama is considered a cheater when he put lotion on before a fight in front of a official.
> 
> It's just something you don't do. You don't rub vaseline on your fighters body everyone knows that.


I completely agree- now it comes down to whether or not Nurse was intentionally doing it or just doing the same breathing exercises they have done before but with vasoline residue on his fingers. It honestly might be as simple as he didn't realize what he was doing- regardless he will pay the price for it or at the very least learn never to ever do again depending on how this is determined.

I despise cheating as much as the next guy as a former high school coach myself but sometimes an honest mistake or ignorance(though as a cornerman yes- he should know better) can occur.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Canadian Psycho said:


> While I agree that the issue does indeed need to be addressed, I do find it hard to believe that this was malicious, or intentional. Jackson and St. Pierre are respected figures in the MMA world. Would they really risk it all over something as silly as greasing, especially in the middle of a fight? I mean, Jackson makes a point... with all of the cameras, fans, and officials around, is his corner really going to attempt cheating? And I have to have a chuckle at people posting videos, claiming GSP is being greased up while *officials* are hovering over him, having heard complaints of the illegal practice. Yes... I'm certain Jackson and his corner *continued* to apply vaseline, despite the presence of officials. Anyone whom could possibly believe that simply isn't thinking straight. Again, the matter need be dealt with, but there is nothing here that could convince me that this was a malicious act, or that GSP has been fooling us all for years, or that Greg Jackson and his camp are as crooked as (insert something exceptionally crooked, here).


There is some truth here but neither Jackson or GSP stands accused of it, Nurse does and while I respect GSP and Jackson I know little of Nurse, but what I do know is he is on tape breaking the rules.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Toxic said:


> There is some truth here but neither Jackson or GSP stands accused of it, Nurse does and while I respect GSP and Jackson I know little of Nurse, but what I do know is he is on tape breaking the rules.


Not true. I know you, and others here are sensible enough to give GSP and Jackson the benefit of the doubt, but I've been reading quite a few posts abroad, and even one or two on here, where GSP and Jackson are being made out to be dirty cheats, whom could not possibly have been unaware of what was going on. That GSP isn't worthy of our respect, anymore, and that Jackson should be barred from ever cornering another fighter. I just find it very difficult to believe that anyone who's actually followed this sport could believe that St. Pierre and Jackson were even capable of this, let alone that they'd knowingly attempt to cheat in front of a live audience, aware of the fact that the camera could pan in on them at any moment, or that any official cage-side could witness their actions.


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## fuesselfc (Jan 28, 2008)

I would hate for anything to come against GSP, but if it does, it does. I think the little amount wiped on, never denied by anybody, was nullified by the red coat toweling off GSP.

Rush On!


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Not true. I know you, and others here are sensible enough to give GSP and Jackson the benefit of the doubt, but I've been reading quite a few posts abroad, and even one or two on here, where GSP and Jackson are being made out to be dirty cheats, whom could not possibly have been unaware of what was going on. That GSP isn't worthy of our respect, anymore, and that Jackson should be barred from ever cornering another fighter. I just find it very difficult to believe that anyone who's actually followed this sport could believe that St. Pierre and Jackson were even capable of this, let alone that they'd knowingly attempt to cheat in front of a live audience, aware of the fact that the camera could pan in on them at any moment, or that any official cage-side could witness their actions.


where is anyone saying that about Greg Jackson. I would love to reply to that post


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## Where'stheCrow? (Nov 28, 2007)

M_D said:


> where is anyone saying that about Greg Jackson. I would love to reply to that post


Yeah, I really haven't seen that either. I saw somebody write they didn't like the way Jackson was addressing the situation but nothing more than that.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I read Dana told the athletic commision that he doesnt feel "they" ever need to corner a UFC fighter again so it will be interesting to see who "they" includes.


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## Robopencil (Feb 7, 2007)

Just for the sake of this argument, I figured I'd do a little Vaseline test. I rubbed a good amount onto the underside of my arm where there wasn't any hair.

Wiped my arm about 5 times. My arm might feel a little bit softer in that area, but it's not even close to slippery. If it was wiped off well (which Kizer said it was) it wouldn't effect Penn's rubber-guard at all imo.

Especially considering that Vaseline doesn't stick well when you're sweaty.

Of course, if this was intentional, it's still cheating. 

But I'm not sure I buy that. Are they dumb enough to grease their fighter with a cameraman standing literally right next to them?


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Where'stheCrow? said:


> Yeah, I really haven't seen that either. I saw somebody write they didn't like the way Jackson was addressing the situation but nothing more than that.


I didn't mean that I had seen much of it, here... I did try to make that clear. Most people here have been very good about their responses to the matter. But on a few other forums, especially at BJ's, Jackson and GSP are taking a beating. That it's Jackson's camp, and he'd clearly be aware of what his corner is doing, is a strong focal point around those parts... I know BJ's forums are what they are, and I was only directed there for a laugh at some of these wild fans, but I'm even seeing little comments following articles covering Jackson's response on various sports websites. About how there's no way he could be unaware of what was going on, and neither could George. And that even if Nurse was the one applying the vaseline, Georges is responsible for the actions of his camp, as is Jackson, and both should be punished as a result. Then I'm reading responses along the lines of 'Tito complained Rashad felt greasy,' as did 'Serra about St. Pierre,' which must mean greasing is a trait of the Jackson camp, and that Jackson is the mastermind of it all. This is why, aside from the sometimes faulty rep system, I like this forum... most people keep sensible heads. Some of the conspiracy theories out there are getting a tad wild.


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## Where'stheCrow? (Nov 28, 2007)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I didn't mean that I had seen much of it, here... I did try to make that clear. Most people here have been very good about their responses to the matter. But on a few other forums, especially at BJ's, Jackson and GSP are taking a beating. That it's Jackson's camp, and he'd clearly be aware of what his corner is doing, is a strong focal point around those parts... I know BJ's forums are what they are, and I was only directed there for a laugh at some of these wild fans, but I'm even seeing little comments following articles covering Jackson's response. About how there's no way he could be unaware of what was going on, and neither could George. And that even if Nurse was the one applying the vaseline, Georges is responsible for the actions of his camp, as is Jackson, and both should be punished as a result. Then I'm reading responses along the lines of 'Tito complained Rashad felt greasy,' as did 'Serra about St. Pierre,' which must mean greasing is a trait of the Jackson camp, and that Jackson is the mastermind of it all. This is why, aside from the sometimes faulty rep system, I like this forum... most people keep sensible heads. Some of the conspiracy theories out there are getting a tad wild.


Gotcha. Guilt by association tends to happen a lot.


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

Robopencil said:


> Just for the sake of this argument, I figured I'd do a little Vaseline test. I rubbed a good amount onto the underside of my arm where there wasn't any hair.
> 
> Wiped my arm about 5 times. My arm might feel a little bit softer in that area, but it's not even close to slippery. If it was wiped off well (which Kizer said it was) it wouldn't effect Penn's rubber-guard at all imo.
> 
> ...


lol at least you did some investigating for future attempts though get the Vaseline they are using in the fights it is different then your house Vaseline just fyi


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Southpaw, this is the many reasons why you need to think clearly before you post.

No one is saying the vaseline was the reason GSP won.
The issue is YOU DON'T rub vaseline ANYWHERE except the face. If you are applying vaseline to your fighters face, you have to be responsible enough to not rub that fighter ANYWHERE ELSE besides his face even if you have a little amount of vaseline on your hands.

You don't do it. You just don't. No matter the amount, it's against the rules and the NSAC is going to address this to trainers and corner man because it's not something to get lax on.

No one here is saying GSP won because of it, it's the fact that someone has to be punished or reminded harshly what the rules are for a corner man. I read that the NSAC are giving Jackson and Nurse another chance, but if it's done again, they can't corner anymore fights. It was irresponsible on Jackson's and Nurse's part. You have one person be the designated vaseline guy and no one else so stuff like this doesn't happen.

Do you fight MMA or have you been in a fight? You should know this about the vaseline rules.


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## somethingclever (Apr 8, 2007)

GSP had vasoline on his back during the second round, they only wiped it off after the later rounds. Do your test again with the vasoline still there.


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## Robopencil (Feb 7, 2007)

somethingclever said:


> GSP had vasoline on his back during the second round, they only wiped it off after the later rounds. Do your test again with the vasoline still there.


Watch the fight again, an official wipes GSP down right before he starts fighting in the second round.


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## Beeg (Nov 19, 2006)

I've gone to the UFC website and couldn't find any rule mentioning use of grease and/or vaseline:

UFC Rules


I've found an online listing of the NSAC Rules and here is their mention of grease under the GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR CONTESTS AND EXHIBITIONS section:

_NAC 467.598 Physical appearance of unarmed combatants. (NRS 467.030)
2. The excessive use of grease or any other foreign substance may not be used on the face or body of an unarmed combatant. The referees or the Commission’s representative in charge shall cause any excessive grease or foreign substance to be removed._

— They do not make for a separate classification between the face and body as far as grease goes. 
— They do not specify that the body must have a lesser to no amount of grease than what's permitted to the face. 
— By their own wording, it would be understood that the same amount of grease or any other foreign substance that is permitted to the face, is permitted to the body. 

Am I missing another rule/regulation of the NSAC regarding use of grease?


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## somethingclever (Apr 8, 2007)

Robopencil said:


> Watch the fight again, an official wipes GSP down right before he starts fighting in the second round.


just did, and I didn't see any red shirt anywhere near him. You'll have to get me a different link. My dvr'd version only shows them wiping georges off after the 2nd and 3rd rounds.


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## gm2685 (Aug 27, 2006)

George could have poured baby powder all over his body , and he still would have destroyed BJ. I say make an immediate rematch so that BJ is embarrassed even further.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

You just don't grease your body no matter the amount.

It's just something you don't do. It's against the rules with excessive amount, but if you do a little amount, you just don't do it. You have to know that you cannot rub you fighter anywhere else but the face if you are rubbing vase on him.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

gm2685 said:


> George could have poured baby powder all over his body , and he still would have destroyed BJ. I say make an immediate rematch so that BJ is embarrassed even further.


 Im so sick of this stupid shit, not to pick on any one poster but the fact that GSP would win a rematch WITHOUT any vasaline does not excuse the fact it was used, this has been the constant defense used for this, people either intelligently try to discuss it and every 3rd post is blatant GSP nutthugging were they use the fact GSP obviously didnt need the vasoline to excuse it? If Brock Lesnar brought a baseball bat into the octagon and smashed Randy Couture over the head would that be cheating? But he manhandled Couture so its obvious he wouldnt need the bat so doesnt that excuse it? I realize its not exactly the same as the vasaline could easily be applied with out GSP's knowledge but you get my drift.


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

milkkid291 said:


> Southpaw, this is the many reasons why you need to think clearly before you post.
> 
> No one is saying the vaseline was the reason GSP won.
> The issue is YOU DON'T rub vaseline ANYWHERE except the face. If you are applying vaseline to your fighters face, you have to be responsible enough to not rub that fighter ANYWHERE ELSE besides his face even if you have a little amount of vaseline on your hands.
> ...


I don't know what it is with you either calling me out all the time wether it's some kind of personal vendetta but I never did anything to you, besides school you on my knowledge and your lack there of on the subject of AAS.

People on this board have been saying that the use of vaseline was deciding factor in GSP's victory, so stop being so ignorant and read around.

I'm not doubting that it's against the rules but seriously, when you have 1 minute in between rounds to discuss gameplans, apply vaseline, wipe cuts, and do your "rituals" people tend to sometimes get caught up in the moment. I know that doesn't excuse but look.

When I think of greasing I think of taking a gob out of the container (small or large) and applying it as necessary. There was no gob on his hands at the time he did that. All of it had been applied to his face. There was maybe and extremely thin film of it on his hands, that's not enough, IMO, to qualify as greasing and therefore breaking the rules.

The rules are even in the NSAC that "excessive amounts of grease are illegal" 

I don't know about you but I don't think residue is an excessive amount


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## Robopencil (Feb 7, 2007)

somethingclever said:


> just did, and I didn't see any red shirt anywhere near him. You'll have to get me a different link. My dvr'd version only shows them wiping georges off after the 2nd and 3rd rounds.


Nevermind, I think I was wrong. Guess I confused round 3 for 2 and 4 for 3.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

southpaw447 said:


> I don't know what it is with you either calling me out all the time wether it's some kind of personal vendetta but I never did anything to you, besides school you on my knowledge and your lack there of on the subject of AAS.


First, I call you out on certain posts that you over react too and just explode on other people about something. You have been known to tell huge stories and you also have a HUGE personal bias when it comes to favorite fighters of yours. You come off as a dick many times when people say something about a favorite fighter of yours and you don't need to do that.

I'm not sure where you have schooled me on AAS? You normally get into it with others about steroids besides when I got onto the suspicion of Overeem using something which you in fact agreed with but you said it was more than likely HGH, which I agreed. 



southpaw447 said:


> People on this board have been saying that the use of vaseline was deciding factor in GSP's victory, so stop being so ignorant and read around.


I have read around the 589078933 threads on this subject and many GOOD posters agree with this statement that It did not affect the fight. There are some who are just plain ignorant and don't really know what Vase does, but most of the posts I've read say that they agree that it did nothing for the fight, just it was a mistake made by the corner and it's against the rules.



southpaw447 said:


> I'm not doubting that it's against the rules but seriously, when you have 1 minute in between rounds to discuss gameplans, apply vaseline, wipe cuts, and do your "rituals" people tend to sometimes get caught up in the moment. I know that doesn't excuse but look.


If you have fought before you would know you should have a corner man specifically designated to vasing up your face and only do that while your head coach tells you the game plan and how the fight is going while the other guy gives you water. The mistake made in this fight was that they had Nurse apply the Vase to GSP's face, then do the Voodoo thing. They should have had someone else that wasn't Nurse to apply the Vase if Nurse was the only one who could do the voodoo ritual.



southpaw447 said:


> When I think of greasing I think of taking a gob out of the container (small or large) and applying it as necessary. There was no gob on his hands at the time he did that. All of it had been applied to his face. There was maybe and extremely thin film of it on his hands, that's not enough, IMO, to qualify as greasing and therefore breaking the rules.
> 
> The rules are even in the NSAC that "excessive amounts of grease are illegal"
> 
> I don't know about you but I don't think residue is an excessive amount


You say I'm not reading, but you clearly are not reading my posts. I said it wasn't that much vase since it was applied to his face, BUT YOU DO NOT have the guy who applies the vase to your face rub you back, shoulders, or whatever else. Even if it's just a minute amount, the NSAC will jump all over you. You just don't do it and it was the irresponsibility of GSP's corner for not designating one guy to apply the Vase to his face and his face only.

And again, I'm just pointing out that there needs to be something done about this so no controversies can arise from other fights.


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

milkkid291 said:


> First, I call you out on certain posts that you over react too and just explode on other people about something. You have been known to tell huge stories and you also have a HUGE personal bias when it comes to favorite fighters of yours. You come off as a dick many times when people say something about a favorite fighter of yours and you don't need to do that.


Everyone on here has biased opinion about fighters.

I could say that it appears that you have a serious hard on for Brian Stann

A lot of people come to the defense of their favorite fighters, I usually don't do it unless whatever is being said it bullshit.

Yeah I _had_ a history of telling stories but is that relevant to the topic of why you are calling me out?.... NO.

Does the fact that I told a story have anything to do with GSP greasing or you accusing Overeem of using Human Growth Hormone? NO


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

So GSP is the only fighter in the UFC that has had his corner man apply vaseline to his face and then give him a rub down on his shoulders and back?

I find that very hard to believe...


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Well he is the first one to get caught, considerign its illegal I doubt its common practice.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

southpaw447 said:


> Everyone on here has biased opinion about fighters.
> 
> I could say that it appears that you have a serious hard on for Brian Stann


Brian Stann is one of my favorite fighters and if you read many of my posts, you would know I'm a huge pro-military guy with my whole family being involved. It doesn't mean I will blindly exaggerate things about Stann or explode over posters who don't necessarily like him. I also have many other favorite fighters, but I really don't like announcing them too often. You, on the other hand,have this Bias that holds GSP to godlike status to the point that you are blinded at certain topics.



southpaw447 said:


> A lot of people come to the defense of their favorite fighters, I usually don't do it unless whatever is being said it bullshit.


And again, many of the good posters here weren't saying bullshit. They were saying it was against the rules.



southpaw447 said:


> Yeah I _had_ a history of telling stories but is that relevant to the topic of why you are calling me out?.... NO.
> 
> Does the fact that I told a story have anything to do with GSP greasing or you accusing Overeem of using Human Growth Hormone? NO


You asked why I call you out and I answered why. Many of your posts are extremely biased and have little to no truth behind them and with very extreme bias in them. You do have some great posts, but your posts where you seem to think you know it all outweighs your good ones. And when someone proves you wrong, you ignore them for a few pages and respond to someone else with the same argument that you were just proved wrong in.

You also said you schooled me on AAS and I responded to that post that you haven't. Just there was that one case where I talked about Overeem and we both agreed on it. It has nothing to do with the greasing issue, I was just answering a question you asked. Something you tend to sway away from.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Well he is the first one to get caught, considerign its illegal I doubt its common practice.


It is only illegal if they were meaning to do so. I have trouble believing this because if they were Nurse would have been using the hand that applied the vaseline and he would also take rubs where he put the vaseline on his other hand and then rub GSP's back.

Nothing like that happened. It was the relatively clean hand that rubbed GSP's back and it was after his hand had already been rubbed over GSP's face, chest and shoulders.

Also GSP and his corner men have said the touching of the chest and back have to do with breathing, and if you watch the video you will notice he does take some deep breaths when Nurse pushes on him. 

There is just no way that Nurse applies anywhere near an amount of vaseline to even give GSP an advantage. 

Also some poster said posted the NSAC's rules pertaining to greasing and it says excessive. There is no way this could be considered excessive so unless there is something else that wasn't mentioned there then it wasn't illegal.

I just think there is a lot of extra hullabaloo for nothing in this.


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## tonyromulus (Feb 2, 2009)

I don't know about you but I don't think residue is an excessive amount[/QUOTE]

honestly with vasilene or petrolium jelly, even residue gets really greesy when mixed with sweat!, and even if pierre didnt need it everyone in here is spliting **** hairs, facts are real simple,

1. he didnt look like he needed the vas to win
2. he had himself greesed, he has priors
3. the shit was dirty come on...
4. letting get away completly and not nipping that kinda shit in the bud is bad for the sport, because later on someone will do it in a less 1 sided fight and then it will matter more!


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

420atalon said:


> It is only illegal if they were meaning to do so. I have trouble believing this because if they were Nurse would have been using the hand that applied the vaseline and he would also take rubs where he put the vaseline on his other hand and then rub GSP's back.
> 
> Nothing like that happened. It was the relatively clean hand that rubbed GSP's back and it was after his hand had already been rubbed over GSP's face, chest and shoulders.
> 
> ...


 Unintentionally breaking the rules is still breaking the rules, saying they didnt mean to doesnt change the fact they did it, Ive said it probably 100 times in this thread, When your a cornering in a championship fight in the biggest organization in MMA you dont get to call ignorance your expected to know the rules and abide by them.

I would also like to point out that the NSAC obviously disagrees with your definition of excessive since they toweled GSP off, just throwing it out there.....


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

But if they towelled him off an allowed the fight to continue, isn't that an indication they considered the matter dealt with?


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Not exactly since it happened more than once. Toweling off doesn't always get the vase off, but it really wasn't that much so there wasn't much to begin with to wipe off, but vase isn't the easiest thing to wipe completely dry.

The whole point was is that it happened more than just inbetween one round and that GSP's corner did not have a guy designated to just vase his face up and only that.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

From the videos on the first page I don't see any evidence of rubbing vaseline onto GSP. If there was any at all, it must've been very minor and not nearly enough to change anything or let BJ's guard slip off. 

*VIDEO BREAKDOWN!:*

Video1: Nurse applies it to GSPs face, with his left hand. nurse rubs the res tin possibly with his right, either way, it seems the amount they put on him is rubbed into his face and judging from how much he used, not much if any would be left on his right or left hands. He then rubs Georges' shoulders with both hands, both the "pallet" and applying hands. While there could've been some on his left hand I highly doubt there was on his right. If any was, it would've come off of Georges' shoulder. BJ was NOT complaining about the shoulder. He then POKES his back with his finger tips (i'll get to this at the end), then firmly rubs the center of georges' back.

Video 2:
Redundant. No one touches GSP in this aside from the NSAC representitive. He is clearly wiping something off also, so if anyone had touched GSP and possibly applied something to him during that, it has since been wiped away.

Video 3:
nurse does not seem to be rubbing in vaseline at this point. There is none on his right hand. Also, he does not motion like he is getting something off his hand (watch his shoulders). Added to that, the NSAC is AGAIN wiping whatever substance may have been on GSP off. 

So from those three the only thing you see is the first video. It's the only thing with any sort of evidence, and it's very little evidence at that.

*What Do I Think Happened?*
honestly, given what's being shown (again we do not see 100% of it), I think BJ's corner saw this and thought something was going on. Obviously they told the NSAC (or someone did) and they stepped in immediately. The NSAC did their job impecably and thouroughly from what I see. I do not see greasing in those videos at all. I think any amount that could've done anything would've been wiped off on both GSP's face and MAYBE his shoulders. However, with the NSAC stepping in like that it doesn't seem to matter that much outside of a beurocratic thing. Honestly, I think BJ's camp (and now I guess BJ) are reaching for an excuse as to why he was beaten so badly. I'm not being a nutthuger I'm being unbiased and purely going by what is in those 3 videos and the fight. I think BJ's camp saw it during the fight, the NSAC stepped in and cleared it up. Then BJ got beaten and now they want excuses. Again, not being a nutthugger, but BJ usually does come up with an excuse for his loses. 

*What Should Be Done* 
I do agree however that this should be taken to teh NSAC investigators. I dont think they will find anything, but then again they may. I think it should be taken purely on a basis of getting the message out that iif people do try to cheat (even if unwittingly or what have you) they will be caught, investigated and possibly reprimanded. I do not think GSP will be reprimanded however, nor charged with anything or fined. It wouldn't surprise me if DANA gave him a rematch (money in the bank huh?) though. 

* About Nurse's poking and Prodding*
I'm not sure how many users have studied karate or arts that use many pressure points, chi points and "meridians" but I've taken some classes in Ryuku Kempo, where in which this technique is used quite often. It's mostly used as a technique to "revive" someone who has been knocked out or demonstrated on. It's supposed to increase Chi flow to the body and give it more energy. The technique I've seen looks almost exactly, if not exactly, like the one Nurse is using. it often involves elevation of the feet 9as they were seen elevating GSPs during his time in the corner) and pin pointing certain points along the spine, then rubbing them upward as Nurse is doing. Just thought I may clarify that from someone who has seen first hand what he was doing.


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## adude (Jul 5, 2006)

i take back my original statement i think it happened more than once

there should be fine..but how can anyone call gsp a cheater..you dont know he knew what was going on..yeh vaseline is illegal so is strikes to the back of the head and low blows so are all of those guys cheaters


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

adude said:


> It didnt happen more than once. Between round 2 and 3 it happened and between round 3 and 4 the nsac guys brought it a towel and wiped down gsp just for precaution as stated Keith Kizer..someone else posted this in another thread http://mmajunkie.com/news/13895/kiz...ppeal-st-pierres-corner-could-face-action.mma
> 
> there should be fine..but how can anyone call gsp a cheater..you dont know he knew what was going on..yeh vaseline is illegal so is strikes to the back of the head and low blows so are all of those guys cheaters


According to your article...



> "The first round, one of the inspectors that was on the outside of the cage came over to me and said it looked to him that when the cornerman, who I think in that case was Phil Nurse, put the Vaseline on Georges' face then rubbed his shoulders -- which you see the guys rubbing the other guy's shoulders to help him out -- he didn't wipe off his hands between doing that. I said, 'Well, I'm going to watch very closely after this round.'"
> 
> Kizer watched intently to see if the questionable actions would be repeated as the second round came to a close.
> 
> "At the end of the second round I watched, and then another cornerman who I believe was Greg Jackson, he put the Vaseline on Georges' face, and then he put his hand on his back to do the breathing thing they always do," Kizer said. "As soon as I saw that, it looked like there was still some Vaseline on his hand. Not a lot, but still some


So it was more than once. I'm not calling GSP and cheater, just that his corner was very irresponsible.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Unintentionally breaking the rules is still breaking the rules, saying they didnt mean to doesnt change the fact they did it, Ive said it probably 100 times in this thread, When your a cornering in a championship fight in the biggest organization in MMA you dont get to call ignorance your expected to know the rules and abide by them.
> 
> I would also like to point out that the NSAC obviously disagrees with your definition of excessive since they toweled GSP off, just throwing it out there.....


Good post, I agree. Breaking the rules, intentionally or unintentionally, is breaking the rules. The matter must be dealt with as to assure that it does not happen again, and to make sure that fighters and their corners know even unintentional rule breaks will not be accepted. They are professionals, do your job correctly.


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## SpecC (Nov 18, 2007)

I've just figured it out! GSP has vaseline pores on his back. solved.


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## Rabid (Oct 7, 2007)

Watch Dana White's video blog at youtube, it looks like Chuck Liddell is the one who stirred all this up.


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## adude (Jul 5, 2006)

milkkid291 said:


> According to your article...
> 
> So it was more than once. I'm not calling GSP and cheater, just that his corner was very irresponsible.


yeh sorry my bad should of looked at the articale more closely it said greg jackson did something in one of the rounds..

yeh the calling the gsp cheater thing were to other people in general


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## cezwan (Dec 7, 2007)

who cares seriously? do you think it would of changed the outcome?

hell no..

if BJ wants a rematch.. go for it.. hes just gonna get another crazy beatdown..


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

adude said:


> yeh sorry my bad should of looked at the articale more closely it said greg jackson did something in one of the rounds..
> 
> yeh the calling the gsp cheater thing were to other people in general


NP man, we all misread and make mistakes.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

cezwan said:


> who cares seriously? do you think it would of changed the outcome?
> 
> hell no..
> 
> if BJ wants a rematch.. go for it.. hes just gonna get another crazy beatdown..


I don't think he wants a rematch, he has said nothing on it.

If someone breaks a rule, intentionally or unintentionally, it needs to be called out, otherwise people will cheat and say "well, I didn't mean to", and will get away with it.

Just like the Law, you run a red light, you need to pay the fine, even if you were distracted and didn't mean to.


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

while i agree that it shouldnt happen i still think that BJ should just let it slide and be the bigger man. I mean he lost so much face after smacktalk extrodinaire and getting brutally dominated for 4 rounds that this just makes it worse for him. AND if this turnes out to be untrue and/or not so serious as its stated then he would have lost ALL cred imo. 

i just dont see what i hopes to accomplish with this. if it had been a close fight then YES i can see his reasons to complain but cmon


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Norway1 said:


> while i agree that it shouldnt happen i still think that BJ should just let it slide and be the bigger man. I mean he lost so much face after smacktalk extrodinaire and getting brutally dominated for 4 rounds that this just makes it worse for him. AND if this turnes out to be untrue and/or not so serious as its stated then he would have lost ALL cred imo.
> 
> i just dont see what i hopes to accomplish with this. if it had been a close fight then YES i can see his reasons to complain but cmon


Well, B.J isn't very kind to cheating, regardless of if it was unintentional. This also gives B.J, someone who is not used to being dominated like that, something to grip on to after such a hard loss. He isn't calling for a rematch, or saying it had any serious effect on the fight, it's just a rule that was broken and he's calling it out.

Personally, I'm glad he is as things like this should not be swept under the rug, it's a broken rule and you can't just ignore it because it was unintentional. It's bad for the sport in general to let rules be broken and not have the Athletic Commision come down on them to some degree.

B.J lost to a better fighter, I'm sure at least 99% of the people know this. 

A broken rule is a broken rule, though.


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## joey__stalin (Dec 31, 2006)

http://mmajunkie.com/news/13895/kizer-penn-yet-to-file-ufc-94-appeal-st-pierres-corner-could-face-action.mma

Not sure if that has been posted already or not, but I am too lazy to find out. Sheds some more light on the situation anyway.


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## jasonc84 (Nov 9, 2007)

southpaw447 said:


> You people act like a dab of vaseline no bigger than the size of the tip of my pinkie finger, is some magical substance that's going to make you a ground fighting gaurd passing machine.
> 
> I think maybe if it was half a jar of Vaseline we'd have something to argue here. But a dime sized amount possible even smaller, just residue spread out over the chest, delt, and upperback area is a significant way to nullify BJ's guard?
> 
> ***** OFF!!!!!!!*


You'd be surprised my friend vaseline is crazy slippery esp when your wet from sweat, put a little on your arm and check it out for yourself. BJ is known for having an unbelievable guard and he could not maintain a high guard even for a sec, my fiance who is new to watching the sport even noticed how quickly BJs legs just slid right down off the shoulders. I don't think this was the deciding factor in the fight but either way should we be ok with the champ doing something against the rules?? No we shouldn't, even if he was fighting and old lady and cheated, cheating is cheating and should not be accepted.


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

milkkid291 said:


> You just don't grease your body no matter the amount.
> 
> It's just something you don't do. It's against the rules with excessive amount, but if you do a little amount, you just don't do it. You have to know that you cannot rub you fighter anywhere else but the face if you are rubbing vase on him.


Except that maybe it isn't against the rules?



Beeg said:


> I've found an online listing of the NSAC Rules and here is their mention of grease under the GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR CONTESTS AND EXHIBITIONS section:
> 
> _NAC 467.598 Physical appearance of unarmed combatants. (NRS 467.030)
> 2. The excessive use of grease or any other foreign substance may not be used on the face or body of an unarmed combatant. The referees or the Commission’s representative in charge shall cause any excessive grease or foreign substance to be removed._


Why isn't there more focus on this? Is this not the correct rule? If this is the wording as it applies to MMA then he didn't even break any rules and all this furor is a complete waste. The amount used on GSP couldn't be considered excessive unless ANY amount is considered excessive and if that is the case why isn't the rule "No grease" rather than "not excessive grease"?

The NSAC guys there seemed to think something wrong might have been done and presumably they know the rules so maybe there is more to it but does anyone have any other links? I looked at the NSAC page and couldn't find anything.


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## TERMINATOR (Jul 6, 2008)

For christ sakes BJ take your ass whoopin like a man and leave at that. I knew when i was watchin the fight his whine ass would not say anything afterwards. Come on BJ start to have some class would ya please.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

vandalian said:


> But if they towelled him off an allowed the fight to continue, isn't that an indication they considered the matter dealt with?


Actually if you read the NSAC official statement its that GSP was toweled off to level the playing field as much as possible under the circumstances so the fight would continue, they dont even sound confident that it would have solved the problem completly..


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## Beeg (Nov 19, 2006)

Tyson vs Berbick
Look at what's going on with the back of Berbick's neck at the 1:07-1:15 mark. Look at Tyson's neck and shoulders during the ref's instructions.

Tyson vs Holmes
Look at Tyson's neck, shoulders and upper back from the 1:10-1:50 mark. You can see on his back where the vaseline ends, halfway down the shoulder blades. 

I know these are boxing clips, but the same NSAC rules apply to MMA. I'm not a boxer, so I'll assume greasing the back of the neck, the shoulders and upper back is to protect the fighters from the cuffs of the opponent's gloves when they're in a clinch. An ancillary benefit is that punches to the shoulders may glance off easier with the presence of grease. 

My point is that some grease beyond the face is allowed. To me it doesn't look like the GSP corner has broken any rules. I would be very surprised if any member of their camp is given any kind of written warning or reprimand. They might get a verbal, but nothing in writing. The NSAC cannot give a fine or written warming for a non-violation, unless they're interested in getting sued. The UFC/NSAC may have their own "unwritten" rules (hence a verbal warning to the Jackson camp), but if either body wishes to prevent further greasing incidences with UFC fighters, one of them is going to have to put a no-body-grease amendment into their official rules. If that's the case, it would be the UFC making the amendment. The NSAC is not going to make an alteration for MMA fighters which would compromise boxers.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

I think it would be very interesting if this is fully pursued and BJ gets a rematch that he likely doesn't want and subs GSP in the first round. 

Truthfully, it didn't change or appear to change the outcome of the fight. It certainly needs to be addressed and Jackson and Nurse may need to be removed from their positions as cornermen for all fighters. 

I certainly don't think BJ pursued this because he felt like he could have won if it never happened though. Anyone that thinks that is what he is doing is mistaken.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Why is anyone arguing wether or not a rule was broken, the athletic commision already established that they felt the vasaline broke the rule when they entered the cage an creating a fuss by toweling GSP off, and please lets not compare boxing and MMA as nobody is trying to throw rubber guard in boxing. Greg Jackson has never even tried using this stance even his stance was it was a small amount put on in the heat of the moment without any though put into it.


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## sicc (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm really surprised the GSP nut huggers don't have a bit more self respect. If the roles were reversed and BJ was caught putting Vaseline on his back can you even imagine the out cry? Especially if GSP had lost and then the Vaseline thing came out? It would be a F'ing emo fest.

Your little golden boy isn't so golden, accept it.

Is GSP good? F'ing right he's good, one of the best, but don't sit there and act like he didn't do anything wrong.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

sicc said:


> I'm really surprised the GSP nut huggers don't have a bit more self respect.


Really???


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## HeavyRob (Nov 3, 2008)

I'm a GSP nuthugger.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

milkkid291 said:


> Not exactly since it happened more than once. Toweling off doesn't always get the vase off, but it really wasn't that much so there wasn't much to begin with to wipe off, but vase isn't the easiest thing to wipe completely dry.
> 
> The whole point was is that it happened more than just inbetween one round and that GSP's corner did not have a guy designated to just vase his face up and only that.


Then why wouldn't they stop the fight, if they didn't feel the situation had been dealt with? 

The commission was overseeing the whole affair, and was aware of what was going on. If they believed further action was required, why didn't they take it?


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

vandalian said:


> Then why wouldn't they stop the fight, if they didn't feel the situation had been dealt with?
> 
> The commission was overseeing the whole affair, and was aware of what was going on. If they believed further action was required, why didn't they take it?


I think they explain this in their article they have out on this situation in one of the threads, sorry there is too many of them for me to remember which one had the answer but if you look im sure you will find it


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I am, Im surprised at how much some respected board members have done to try and defend it, half of them are of the opinion that GSP didnt need the vasaline so it some how excuses it and the other half of them are of the opinion that they didnt intentionally cheat like that somehow excuses it, to me cheating is cheating and somebody needs to pay the price.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

vandalian said:


> Then why wouldn't they stop the fight, if they didn't feel the situation had been dealt with?
> 
> The commission was overseeing the whole affair, and was aware of what was going on. If they believed further action was required, why didn't they take it?


the commision stated that they toweled GSP to level the playing field as much as possible but what can they really do stop the fight untape GSP's hands and send him to the shower? They really dont have alot of options.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Toxic said:


> I am, Im surprised at how much some respected board members have done to try and defend it, half of them are of the opinion that GSP didnt need the vasaline so it some how excuses it and the other half of them are of the opinion that they didnt intentionally cheat like that somehow excuses it, to me cheating is cheating and somebody needs to pay the price.


I'm not defending it. What I'm saying is that NSAC did what it did and did not stop the fight. 

Did Phil Nurse make a mistake? It looks that way, and if so then I wouldn't be bothered by a suspension or a fine for him. Was there any conscious attempt to affect the outcome of the fight? I don't know that, although you seem pretty sure.

Either way, the fight was allowed to continue. Unless NSAC decides they made a mistake, it follows that Saturday night's result must be taken as legitimate and GSP given full credit for his victory.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

sicc said:


> Your little golden boy isn't so golden, accept it.
> 
> Is GSP good? F'ing right he's good, one of the best, but don't sit there and act like he didn't do anything wrong.


Please get it right. GSP didn't do anything wrong. His cornerman was the one who screwed up. Nurse says it was an accident only the commision will support or disprove this. Why don't you wait for their decision before you call GSP guilty of anything more than having a corner man that made a mistake. 

If the commission finds him guilty I'll fully accept that but all these internet NSAC members who weren't there know nothing more than what they 'assume' happened. Wait for the commissions findings then attack GSP all you want.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

vandalian said:


> Either way, the fight was allowed to continue. Unless NSAC decides they made a mistake, it follows that Saturday night's result must be taken as legitimate and GSP given full credit for his victory.


Exactly. Since when are you guilty till proven inocent?


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Toxic said:


> I am, Im surprised at how much some respected board members have done to try and defend it, half of them are of the opinion that GSP didnt need the vasaline so it some how excuses it and the other half of them are of the opinion that they didnt intentionally cheat like that somehow excuses it, to me cheating is cheating and somebody needs to pay the price.


I haven't seen any respected board members defend it. Just Southpaw.



AdRath said:


> Exactly. Since when are you guilty till proven inocent?


Almost always, especially when caught on videotape.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Zing!


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

vandalian said:


> I'm not defending it. What I'm saying is that NSAC did what it did and did not stop the fight.
> 
> Did Phil Nurse make a mistake? It looks that way, and if so then I wouldn't be bothered by a suspension or a fine for him. Was there any conscious attempt to affect the outcome of the fight? I don't know that, although you seem pretty sure.
> 
> Either way, the fight was allowed to continue. Unless NSAC decides they made a mistake, it follows that Saturday night's result must be taken as legitimate and GSP given full credit for his victory.


See this is my issue, why in order to give GSP full credit do we have to pretend nothing is wrong, Ive never seen anybody trying to say BJ would have won but as Ive repeated that doesnt excuse it, GSP gets the credit for being great and winning, but his corner has to accept the concequences of there actions as well. It seems the poplular opinion that GSP's win cant be tarnished so this should just be dropped which is total bull$hit.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> Almost always, especially when caught on videotape.


On video they have evidence of a person going from face to shoulders. What isn't on the video and is only known by the NSAC is the amount and to what areas. They have evidence that Phil Nurse should be reprimnaded but no evidence that it was anything more than an accident. Why don't you wait till they release their findings? You don't know any facts other than a corner man made an error that wasn't deemed serious enough at the time by NSAC officials in the ring. The only question is were the rules broken in a way to void the fight or anything other than a suspension to nurse. 

You guys keep chirping about the rules being broken. Pleae quote the exact rule that was broken as it is worded by the NSAC? Now re-watch the clip. Nothing in the video answeres the question if excessive vasaline was applied to the body.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Toxic said:


> See this is my issue, why in order to give GSP full credit do we have to pretend nothing is wrong, Ive never seen anybody trying to say BJ would have won but as Ive repeated that doesnt excuse it, GSP gets the credit for being great and winning, but his corner has to accept the concequences of there actions as well. It seems the poplular opinion that GSP's win cant be tarnished so this should just be dropped which is total bull$hit.


I don't want the issue to be dropped. It needs to be dealt with. 

What should be dropped is any insinuation that GSP or his camp had any malicious intent here, until there is proof otherwise.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

If Vasaline is so dangerous to the outcome of a fight then why is it used at all. Any amount applied to the face could easily end up on the body of you or your opponent through grappling and wrestling. That is why the rules include the word 'excessive amounts' (or wording to that extent) because a tiny bit getting on the body is bound to happen from time to time.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

AdRath said:


> If Vasaline is so dangerous to the outcome of a fight then why is it used at all. Any amount applied to the face could easily end up on the body of you or your opponent through grappling and wrestling. That is why the rules include the word 'excessive amounts' (or wording to that extent) because a tiny bit getting on the body is bound to happen from time to time.


This is a really, really interesting point.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

vandalian said:


> I
> What should be dropped is any insinuation that GSP or his camp had any malicious intent here, until there is proof otherwise.


I agree whole heartedly with this. 

Wait till the NSAC makes its decision. The rest is all bullshit and rhetoric at this point.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

vandalian said:


> I don't want the issue to be dropped. It needs to be dealt with.
> 
> What should be dropped is any insinuation that GSP or his camp had any malicious intent here, until there is proof otherwise.


I haven't said much because this what I want to happen- I want the NSAC to look into this, review every scrap of video they can, interview all parties involved and interview witnesses that had eyeballs on the situation and come to a fair and an accurate decision on what to do regarding this situation.

It's obvious a rule was broken what needs to become obvious was whether or not there was intention to do this to gain an unfair advantage in the fight and cheat or whether it was a honest mistake or lapse of judgment on Nurse's part. Honest mistake or not Nurse should have known better and I do think he will receive some punishment for the incident.

But I'm not going to judge or jump on one side or the other until it is more throughly investigated.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

AdRath said:


> On video they have evidence of a person going from face to shoulders. What isn't on the video and is only known by the NSAC is the amount and to what areas. They have evidence that Phil Nurse should be reprimnaded but no evidence that it was anything more than an accident. Why don't you wait till they release their findings? You don't know any facts other than a corner man made an error that wasn't deemed serious enough at the time by NSAC officials in the ring. The only question is were the rules broken in a way to void the fight or anything other than a suspension to nurse.
> 
> You guys keep chirping about the rules being broken. Pleae quote the exact rule that was broken as it is worded by the NSAC? Now re-watch the clip. Nothing in the video answeres the question if excessive vasaline was applied to the body.


If a rule wasn't broken, then why was Kizer so diligent with adjusting the situation? You are so quick to dismiss the judgment of an NSAC official. 

All that has come of this is the exact same thing that you are talking about in the first paragraph. The only reason no action has been taken is because of the degree to which the rule was broken. But two very experienced cornermen making the exact same mistake (i.e. rubbing a hand that has vaseline on it on places other then the face) is highly suspicious, especially when it happens in the same fight.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm not going to post much in here due to my name, I pretty much come off biased, but come on. Is this really an issue you guys think is being "swept under the rug" or ignored because it is GSP? Please, if anything it heightens the matter. In front of millions, after a round of 10-9 for GSP, his corner suddenly decides they need more of an advantage? That BJ's omnipotent rubber might be the death of St. Pierre if not for the addition of Vaseline?! Take a reality check, and instead of watching these GIFs that really don't show a shred of malicious intent, just a bit of carelessness and poor judgment, watch the first round of the fight...BEFORE the Vaseline was applied. BJ's guard wasn't working then either. And as the fight goes on, he gets more tired...kinda like he wasn't able to hop around defending takedowns anymore. Or maybe the cage was too slippery at that point...  They also both started to sweat, and BJ made the decision not to wear any kind of gear that could garner any traction; something he'd needed in the fight before. Finally, did we not all see the Vaseline being wiped off, or the comments stating that they wiped it off? Give the cornerman proper warning/suspension and move on and keep an eye out for it in the coming fights. Don't try to taint GSP because of it. At any point in a fight a fighter can take a glob from his head and smear it on a given part of his/an opponent's body...


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Actually I think its pretty obvious BJ's guard is working slightly better in the first round, I dont think its due to the vasaline as much as BJ getting tired and GSP's body positioning were he tried to stay more vertical to avoid BJ from being able to lock in his legs, but that is a poor point on your behalf to make.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

I'm sure the NSAC will investigate this matter thoroughly, most likely reprimand or otherwise sanction the cornerman, and I'm hopeful that the vast majority will agree that it neither takes away from, nor will it change the outcome of the fight.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Makes sense to me.


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## jasonc84 (Nov 9, 2007)

All_In_GSP said:


> I'm not going to post much in here due to my name, I pretty much come off biased, but come on. Is this really an issue you guys think it being "swept under the rug" or ignored because it is GSP? Please, if anything it heightens the matter. In front of millions, after a round of 10-9 for GSP, his corner suddenly decides they need more of an advantage? That BJ's omnipotent rubber might be the death of St. Pierre if not for the addition of Vaseline?! Take a reality check, and instead of watching these GIFs that really don't show a shred of malicious intent, just a bit of carelessness and poor judgment, watch the first round of the fight...BEFORE the Vaseline was applied. BJ's guard wasn't working then either. And as the fight goes on, he gets more tired...kinda like he wasn't able to hop around defending takedowns anymore. Or maybe the cage was too slippery at that point...  They also both started to sweat, and BJ made the decision not to wear any kind of gear that could garner any traction; something he'd needed in the fight before. Finally, did we not all see the Vaseline being wiped off, or the comments stating that they were wiped off? Give the cornerman proper warning/suspension and move on and keep an eye out for it in the coming fights. Don't try to taint GSP because of it. At any point in a fight a fighter can take a glob from his head and smear it on a given part of his/an opponent's body...


The problem is other fighters are making comments now so it needs to be addressed. Some after the fact and apparently Sherk as soon as their fight ended, so that seems to kind of be malicious intent if its done over and over again. And as i've stated before a quick wipe with a towel would not take vaseline off the body. You would still be slick with quick wipes like they use, rub vaseline on yourself the only way your really gonna get the slickness away is by washing it not juts wiping it with a towel.


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## Poseidon72 (Apr 29, 2007)

First of all how do you know the exact amount applied exactly and secondly Vaselinedoes not completely remove itself when rubbed with a towel. It even takes a while to get it off inthe shower. Mix that with some sweat it's slip and slide time. If you don't beleive me try it.


southpaw447 said:


> You people act like a dab of vaseline no bigger than the size of the tip of my pinkie finger, is some magical substance that's going to make you a ground fighting gaurd passing machine.
> 
> I think maybe if it was half a jar of Vaseline we'd have something to argue here. But a dime sized amount possible even smaller, just residue spread out over the chest, delt, and upperback area is a significant way to nullify BJ's guard?
> 
> ***** OFF!!!!!!!*


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

I'm not going to quote anyone and to whoever thinks we are claiming this affected the fight and BJ's guard.... *WE ARE NOT SAYING THAT.* What we are saying is that this was a mistake made by GSP's corner and it has nothing to do with GSP making a mistake. His corner fucked up by not responsibly assigning correct positions for the fight.

The NSAC already issue a stern warning to GSP's corner. His corner needs to assign one man to do the vaseline. That's what a fighter's corner is suppose to do and it wasn't done.

From the NSAC executive director himself.



> While the utter domination of B.J. Penn by Georges St. Pierre during the two champions' UFC 94 main-event bout cannot be questioned, the tactics implemented by the Canadian's team between rounds of Saturday's fight has left the group open for disciplinary action.
> 
> Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith Kizer today told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com) that an improper application of Vaseline to St. Pierre's back by his cornermen has already merited a stern warning from the commission, and further actions may follow.
> 
> ...


http://mmajunkie.com/news/13895/kiz...ppeal-st-pierres-corner-could-face-action.mma

All that is being said by most on here is that the corner needs to realize that they can't have the guy who is rubbing vase on GSP's face to rub his back, shoulders, and chest to. You are suppose to have just one guy vase the face up. This is all on GSP's corner and nothing is being said to insult GSP or his performance, just the irresponsibility of his corner.


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## newfish (Jun 26, 2008)

*To what end?*

Look, it would be one thing if BJ's camp suspected Penn had something mixed in his water, or that he had taken performance enhancing drugs (or something else equally hard to detect with the naked eye); this would merit investigation. 

However, everyone can see more or less what happened. Nobody will ever know the corner man's intent, for one, and two, it doesn't seem that anybody feels the Vaseline was significant enough to affect the outcome of the match -- or was even that different from what happens over the normal course of a fight. 

It would be more effective for BJ's camp to take this up with GSP personally, behind the scenes, and then publicly if necessary. If they're not going to call for GSP's win to be revoked, they're essentially tattling by going through the NSAC. This will not help BJ in terms of PR, and as a fighter, BJ should have the sense to not taint the victory of an obviously deserving opponent.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

newfish said:


> Look, it would be one thing if BJ's camp suspected Penn had something mixed in his water, or that he had taken performance enhancing drugs (or something else equally hard to detect with the naked eye); this would merit investigation.
> 
> However, everyone can see more or less what happened. Nobody will ever know the corner man's intent, for one, and two, it doesn't seem that anybody feels the Vaseline was significant enough to affect the outcome of the match -- or was even that different from what happens over the normal course of a fight.
> 
> It would be more effective for BJ's camp to take this up with GSP personally, behind the scenes, and then publicly if necessary. If they're not going to call for GSP's win to be revoked, they're essentially tattling by going through the NSAC. This will not help BJ in terms of PR, and as a fighter, BJ should have the sense to not taint the victory of an obviously deserving opponent.


The main point of this is to have GSP's corner be more responsible in between rounds.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

milkkid291 said:


> The main point of this is to have GSP's corner be more responsible in between rounds.


And that is what this is all about. I don't think any side of the debate has issue with that. Nurse and Jackson screwed up. 

None of that should detract from GSP's performance or the victory.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I got an interesting question, with the UFC rallying for the province of Ontario to legalize MMA what does it mean to the fight to have MMA legalized when the posterboy for MMA in Canada gets caught up in a controversy like this?


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

Toxic said:


> I got an interesting question, with the UFC rallying for the province of Ontario to legalize MMA what does it mean to the fight to have MMA legalized when the posterboy for MMA in Canada gets caught up in a controversy like this?


There is no controversy about George. Even the NSAC said that. The controversy is with his corner men and their behaviour. Even the NSAC said it had no difference on the outcome of the fight. 

It won't make a difference in trying to legalize MMA in Ontario.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

But the facts are we all know that the Anti MMA crowd in general will take anything and everything out of context and try to stretch the truth to its limits to try and make there point and I feel this will be used as ammunition by the human cockfighting crowd.


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## enufced904 (Jul 17, 2008)

newfish said:


> If they're not going to call for GSP's win to be revoked, they're essentially tattling by going through the NSAC.


How is it tattling if they already know about the situation? If BJ and his camp were to file a complaint, the NSAC would simply be going into further investigations. 

As many have said, this is not to take anything away from GSP. I am a big fan of both fighters and clearly GSP was the better fighter Saturday night. While I don't believe the vaseline affected the outcome of the fight, the point is that it was applied to parts of his body other than his face. Regardless of the fact that it was wiped off by the commission, it was still put on him. We'll have to play the waiting game and see how it rolls out.


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## bdatws1 (Apr 24, 2007)

penn needs to get over it. remember forian/huerta? florian didn't complain about huerta being greased, although he did mention it, he just beat his ass.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

Toxic said:


> But the facts are we all know that the Anti MMA crowd in general will take anything and everything out of context and try to stretch the truth to its limits to try and make there point and I feel this will be used as ammunition by the human cockfighting crowd.


In my opinion there is no way to use a 'greasing' allegation to illustrate any sort of brutality. All it does is affirm that it it popular enough a sport to have commissions on the scene and to have the rules tightly followed and acted on. If anything this incident and the way the NSAC was all over it just shows that is can be a proper sport and monitored successfully. 

I don't believe here in Ontario there is a large 'human cockfighting' crowd of opposers. As I see it there is one of 2 people in the possition of power that wants to make a name for themselves or believes they know better than everyone else no matter what evidence is presented. They are holding out because they are stubborn and no one likes to admit that their initial position on the sport was wrong. Their views are antiquated and they will be replaced or accept the inevitable.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Toxic said:


> But the facts are we all know that the Anti MMA crowd in general will take anything and everything out of context and try to stretch the truth to its limits to try and make there point and I feel this will be used as ammunition by the human cockfighting crowd.


You're definitely right that it looks bad. I can almost hear some jackass boxing apologist on sports talk radio talking about this and claiming that it's "proof" that "Ultimate Fighting" is a joke.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

> I'm not going to quote anyone and to whoever thinks we are claiming this affected the fight and BJ's guard.... WE ARE NOT SAYING THAT. What we are saying is that this was a mistake made by GSP's corner and it has nothing to do with GSP making a mistake. His corner fucked up by not responsibly assigning correct positions for the fight.
> 
> The NSAC already issue a stern warning to GSP's corner. His corner needs to assign one man to do the vaseline. That's what a fighter's corner is suppose to do and it wasn't done.


I agree completely. GSP's corner was in the wrong here, and there should be punishment in the form or fine or suspension - regardless of whether there was intent - because a rule was broken. Also, there should be an investigation into whether it's been done in the past. So far evidence has shown that it hasn't. But despite the efforts to "not blame GSP" or say it "didn't affect the result" you still have posts that appear to claim otherwise (see Damone's and Leifdawg's posts on the following page); just the same as posts defending GSP seem to have a ring of "sweep this under the rug" when, in reality, I don't think that is the message put forth most often.



Toxic said:


> Actually I think its pretty obvious BJ's guard is working slightly better in the first round, I dont think its due to the vasaline as much as BJ getting tired and GSP's body positioning were he tried to stay more vertical to avoid BJ from being able to lock in his legs, but that is a poor point on your behalf to make.


How do I even respond to this? I had said BJ's guard was ineffective in the first round as well. You responded by saying that you thought it was better in the first round. At first I took this to be a disagreement to my claim - which would be that BJ's grip was worsened due to the Vaseline, and was therefore not as effective. Yet, afterwards you make your case stating exactly what I had previously said - that BJ was not effective in round 1 (before Vaseline mishap), and it was BJ's exhaustion mixed with superb positioning on GSP's part that rendered his GnP more effective in round two. You then say it was a poor point for me to make? As if I was trying to argue with myself...If your point is that the Vaseline is wrong to be used by the same person doing Georges's ritual, then just say that - and I would agree with you. If you're suggesting that GSP was extra slippery, and therefore BJ could not garner any friction, then that is the point people defending GSP are going to attack.

The fact that other fighters have come forward doesn't really play a factor to me; at least not until an investigation reveals that Georges was seen being greased down in those fights. Miller? C'mon. Yeah, the ref told him he was fine just because it was GSP and everyone loves him. He probably didn't check GSP's back or at least have noticed it in order to say, "he's fine." Sherk? Sherk?! Beyond the obvious jokes to be made, this fight was standing minus two big takedowns by Georges and brutal GnP to end it. GSP won the standup by getting in and out of Sherk's range without getting hit and landing effective strikes. Why is it so hard to believe he was capable of doing that on the ground? Keep in mind the similarities between BJ and Sherk - both barely made the 170 cutoff while Georges was just massive for WW in both of them. It's difficult to maintain a grip on something that is pulling back with much more force than you are pulling in...and let's face it, even if Miller weighed 185 lbs his strength would be incomparable to GSP's.

One of the more ironic parts of these accusations is what BJ's camp has to say - that their gameplan was to work off their back...  So BJ - who hasn't subbed someone off his back in at least 8 fights will suddenly make his whole new gameplan to submit arguably the best wrestler in MMA? Specifically after all the rage about BJ winning the standup so deciseively in their first fight? BJ WANTED to be put on his back? I just don't buy it. And it makes me laugh to think that it's pretty much well known that GSP wanted to take BJ down. He thought he'd aid this by greasing himself up?


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## bail3yz (Apr 22, 2007)

bdatws1 said:


> penn needs to get over it. remember forian/huerta? florian didn't complain about huerta being greased, although he did mention it, he just beat his ass.


This is completely different. Florian had no proof that huerta greased. Florian filing a complaint, wouldnt have accomplished anything in his case. NSAC seen what happened in the GSP situation.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

All_In_GSP said:


> I agree completely. GSP's corner was in the wrong here, and there should be punishment in the form or fine or suspension - regardless of whether there was intent - because a rule was broken. Also, there should be an investigation into whether it's been done in the past. So far evidence has shown that it hasn't. But despite the efforts to "not blame GSP" or say it "didn't affect the result" you still have posts that appear to claim otherwise; just the same as posts defending GSP seem to have a ring of "sweep this under the rug" when, in reality, I don't think that is the message put forth most often.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My point was actually that I though GSP's posture was better (more vertical) in the second which led to BJ having more problems throwing up his legs, the point about it your poor point was that you said BJ's guard was just as ineffective in round 1 as in round 2 which isnt exactly true its just not that vasaline was the issue. GSP actually said he trained quite a bit on how to deal with BJ's unique guard and knew he had to maintain distance between his body and BJ's in order to prevent BJ from being able to hold him down.


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## Grotty (Jul 21, 2006)

At no point did Penn complain during the fight he couldnt get a hold, even when using his cunning plan of "working off his back" he did not make any statement/complaint to the ref etc in fact the only time he moaned during the fight was when GSP held his shorts (first round i think)
Personally i think the corner should be fined for the "lack" of awareness while using "vaseline" and perhaps warned and that should be that.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

AdRath said:


> And that is what this is all about. I don't think any side of the debate has issue with that. Nurse and Jackson screwed up.
> 
> None of that should detract from GSP's performance or the victory.


OMG, how many times do I have to post this.

*WE ARE NOT TAKING ANYTHING AWAY FROM GSP OR HIS VICOTRY! JUST THE IRRESPONSIBILITY OF HIS CORNER!*

Is there anyway I could make this any more clear?

The NSAC have already issued a stern warning to the trainers and might go a bit further. We do not know yet.


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

Beeg said:


> I've gone to the UFC website and couldn't find any rule mentioning use of grease and/or vaseline:
> 
> UFC Rules
> 
> ...


_

I'd like to also resurface this post. It needs more attention. 
It clearly states that "excessive use of grease or any other foreign substance may not be used on the face or body of an unarmed combatant". 

That makes no sense to me - we see cornermen apply Vaseline to the faces of fighters in between rounds all the time, yet this contradicts the rules set by the NAC ; if it clearly states "may not be used on the face or body" then why is it applied on their faces to begin with? I guess by this definition, EVERY UFC fighter and their corner should get in shit now. :confused03:

Maybe its the NAC that needs to be more specific with their rules. If we can find this type of information on their website, and its contradictory, how could such a complaint hold any weight whatsoever?_


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

We can't keep ignoring that GSP greased, people. There's evidence that he did, from multiple sources (Granted, it took Mayhem about 4 years to bring it up). I still think GSP would outright smash Penn's face in again, but Nurse did rub his body down, and this isn't the first time a Greg jackson fighter has been accused of greasing (Diaz said that Diego greased in their fight, and wasn't Huerta training with Greg when he fought Kenny Florian?).


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

Ann official complaint was filed. There is protocol that NSAC must follow before the matter can be put to rest. 

This has nothing to do with GSP or his win imo. To me, this is good because it reminds everyone in the sport to be diligent in how they conduct themselves in the ring, and puts people on notice that no one is too big or too popular that their corner can get away with being careless.

Ultimately, it will help reinforce the legitimacy of MMA in the long term. Had this been allowed to slide, it could have set a dangerous precedent for the sport.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

I'm glad BJ is doing this. Not because I want to see a rematch, but because it is the right thing for the sport as a whole.



southpaw447 said:


> And even the director of the athletic commission (keith kizer) acknowledged that is was a miniscule amount and would not have affected the fight and he even had the guy from the NSAC remove it with a towel.


A quick swipe of a towel will not remove grease.


southpaw447 said:


> I highly doubt that a guy like St. Pierre one if the most respectful, humble and honest ambassadors for the sport would resort to cheating much less try to lie if he was caught, and Greg Jackson one of the premier trainers in the game would lie when asked what happened.


Unless your personal friends of them, you can't say this for sure. Who knows what he's like when the cameras are off.



Davisty69 said:


> I'm glad it is being investigated because if it is true, he is no better than a guy that does Roids.


Actually greasing IMO, is worse than steroids. Because there are weight classes and you can only put on so much muscle mass, the biggest thing steroids do is help you in your training as you will be able to recover faster and build your muscles with less time in the gym. Greasing on the other hand has a direct impact on the fight.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

milkkid291 said:


> OMG, how many times do I have to post this.
> 
> *WE ARE NOT TAKING ANYTHING AWAY FROM GSP OR HIS VICOTRY! JUST THE IRRESPONSIBILITY OF HIS CORNER!*
> 
> ...


Just thought Id quote this, there has been a couple posts so we must be due for someone to have to explain this for the 987th time.


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

leifdawg said:


> Actually greasing IMO, is worse than steroids. Because there are weight classes and you can only put on so much muscle mass, the biggest thing steroids do is help you in your training as you will be able to recover faster and build your muscles with less time in the gym. Greasing on the other hand has a direct impact on the fight.


So do you think that the miniscule amount of vaseline that was left on Georges' shoulders and back is a lot worse than if he had been taking anabolic steroids during his training camp to help him prepare for the fight?? Really??
Think about that.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Toxic said:


> Just thought Id quote this, there has been a couple posts so we must be due for someone to have to explain this for the 987th time.


HAHA, yeah we should do it every page, because I have repeated this soooo many times.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

kc1983 said:


> So do you think that the miniscule amount of vaseline that was left on Georges' shoulders and back is a lot worse than if he had been taking anabolic steroids during his training camp to help him prepare for the fight?? Really??
> Think about that.


First of all it's pretty hard to tell how much was put on his back. So, while it's possible steroids could have had more effect in this instance, it still needs to be investigated because next time it could be enough to really impact the fight.

And fwiw, I think modern designer steroids should be legalized for professional athletes.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

milkkid291 said:


> OMG, how many times do I have to post this.
> 
> *WE ARE NOT TAKING ANYTHING AWAY FROM GSP OR HIS VICOTRY! JUST THE IRRESPONSIBILITY OF HIS CORNER!*
> 
> ...


The post I was responding to was directed at GSP not his corner. So I responded that GSP had done nothing wrong it was his corner. 

What is this 'We' stuff? do you have multiple accounts? I'm sure toxic can repsond to my post. It wasn't directed at you. 

If you actually not directing this stuff at GSP himself then why not say 'Greg Jackson & Phil Nurse' rather than keep saying GSP this and GSP that. You can see how people might take it as a stab directly at GSP right?


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## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Everyone knows you don't rub vaseline on your body. It is cheating and they broke the rules.
> 
> Keith Kizer also said that they broke the rules and that it isn't acceptable.
> 
> ...


Wow. Looks exactly like Greg Jackson described it. :dunno:


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

There's really nothing more to say. The issue has been raised, talked about extensively and will be taken care of properly (hopefully). 

Now we play the waiting game.


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## Red Baron (Jul 17, 2008)

rematch would be doooooooooope as hell


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Grotty said:


> At no point did Penn complain during the fight he couldnt get a hold, even when using his cunning plan of "working off his back" he did not make any statement/complaint to the ref etc in fact the only time he moaned during the fight was when GSP held his shorts (first round i think)
> Personally i think the corner should be fined for the "lack" of awareness while using "vaseline" and perhaps warned and that should be that.


Were you the referee? I am sorry, but seriously how do you know that, especially when it has been reported that he did mention it in between rounds.


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

"Kizer said that the amount of Vaseline he saw applied didn't seem terribly excessive but that no amount of the substance should have ever been used on the fighter's body."

I do not understand him saying this at all. According to the rules that I've read (where it says "no excessive amounts of substance to face or body") THIS ISN'T EVEN AGAINST THE RULES. If it isn't excessive, as Kizer himself said, then what the hell is the problem here? There is no rules violation AT ALL. 

I'm not saying you should be allowed to grease but this highlights the need for this rule to be reworded more than anything else.


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## bail3yz (Apr 22, 2007)

Drogo said:


> "Kizer said that the amount of Vaseline he saw applied didn't seem terribly excessive but that no amount of the substance should have ever been used on the fighter's body."
> 
> I do not understand him saying this at all. According to the rules that I've read (where it says "no excessive amounts of substance to face or body") THIS ISN'T EVEN AGAINST THE RULES. If it isn't excessive, as Kizer himself said, then what the hell is the problem here? There is no rules violation AT ALL.
> 
> I'm not saying you should be allowed to grease but this highlights the need for this rule to be reworded more than anything else.


Firstly, its what Kizer SAW.. he may have not seen it all.

Kizer misspoke, or doesnt know what excessive means. Everyone knows this is against the rules.. its silly try to play on words off what someone said to make it seem OK. 

The rule is poorly worded.. excessive means more then the usual.. the usual in this case is NONE.. so any vaseline on the body is excessive.


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## poiuytre13 (Jul 10, 2007)

i would like to bj's corner and see what happens with the vaseline that is left over after putting it on bj


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

kc1983 said:


> I'd like to also resurface this post. It needs more attention.
> It clearly states that "excessive use of grease or any other foreign substance may not be used on the face or body of an unarmed combatant".
> 
> That makes no sense to me - we see cornermen apply Vaseline to the faces of fighters in between rounds all the time, yet this contradicts the rules set by the NAC ; if it clearly states "may not be used on the face or body" then why is it applied on their faces to begin with? I guess by this definition, EVERY UFC fighter and their corner should get in shit now. :confused03:
> ...


That rule is for boxing matches...that is why I disregarded it. At least that is the impression that the link gives me. Since there is no mention of MMA anywhere throughout it and Boxing is brought iup a number of times. I haven't found anything about this in terms of MMA, but it is pretty much understood that vaseline is to stay on the face and that is it.


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## Muttonwar (Mar 22, 2008)

Can i bring up the fact that when i grapple at my gym that some guys are just more slippery then others? 

And i mean after the whole class has done cardio for an hour and covered in sweat equaly.

Some dudes are more slippery. Idk why, but it happens. 

Also, greg jackson does not corner the grappling matches at my gym.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

But Greg Jackson was in GSP's corner, and Nurse was rubbing vaseline on GSP.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I dont understand why we all still need to debate facts, Nurse was applying vasaline to GSP's back FACT, Applying vasaline to a fighters back is a violation of the rules FACT, GSP's corner broke the rules FACT. there really isnt anything to debate there on tape and got caught in the act by the NSAC who entered the cage how much more proof is needed before the most dimwitted members of the board will accept reality?


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## joey__stalin (Dec 31, 2006)

Is there any footage of Jackson rubbing trace amounts of vaseline on GSP's body? Because from what I saw it was only Nurse. And the only footage I saw of Nurse's hands going from face to body, with vaseline on his hands, was between the 1st and 2nd rounds. And between the 2nd and 3rd and then again between the 3rd and 4th, But we never see either NUrse or Jackson applying vaseline to GSP's face then touching his body. And there were NSAC officials standing in GSP's corner watching and toweling GSP off. 

And for all we know, water and GSP's sweat could have been the cause of Penn not being able to get a grip. When I played football I knew a lot of guys whose sweat was f*ckin slippery and almost slime or mucus like in texture... lol


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

joey__stalin said:


> Is there any footage of Jackson rubbing trace amounts of vaseline on GSP's body? Because from what I saw it was only Nurse. And the only footage I saw of Nurse's hands going from face to body, with vaseline on his hands, was between the 1st and 2nd rounds. And between the 2nd and 3rd and then again between the 3rd and 4th, But we never see either NUrse or Jackson applying vaseline to GSP's face then touching his body. And there were NSAC officials standing in GSP's corner watching and toweling GSP off.
> 
> And for all we know, water and GSP's sweat could have been the cause of Penn not being able to get a grip. When I played football I knew a lot of guys whose sweat was f*ckin slippery and almost slime or mucus like in texture... lol


Wait now you are saying that the NSAC is lying about what they saw?


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## joey__stalin (Dec 31, 2006)

No. I am saying WE only see vaseline being applied between the first and second round when Nurse went from his face to his neck, shoulders, then the exercise thing. 

The second time there were officials there watching, one of them pointing at Jackson and you hear someone say the words "rubbing his back" But WE don't see who was applying the vaseline to his face at the second break. Then we see an official moving to towel GSP off.

The third break there are officials there watching again, WE only see Nurse massaging GSP's neck/lats area. 

What I was saying is at the second and third breaks, there were officials watching Jackson and Nurse, and toweling GSP off when they left the cage.


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## natedg72 (Feb 4, 2009)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> That rule is for boxing matches...that is why I disregarded it. At least that is the impression that the link gives me. Since there is no mention of MMA anywhere throughout it and Boxing is brought iup a number of times. I haven't found anything about this in terms of MMA, but it is pretty much understood that vaseline is to stay on the face and that is it.


No it's not. It is the rules for unarmed combat. There is also a section if you scroll to the top of the page at this link that is dedicated rules for MMA.

http://leg.state.nv.us/NAC/NAC-467.html#NAC467Sec598


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

natedg72 said:


> No it's not. It is the rules for unarmed combat. There is also a section if you scroll to the top of the page at this link that is dedicated rules for MMA.
> 
> http://leg.state.nv.us/NAC/NAC-467.html#NAC467Sec598


It never explicitly states MMA or any other style of combat that is not Boxing. If so, please point it out.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Its understood by the parties involved that its illegal so I dont get why people are wasting there breathe.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

While everyone endlessly debates this topic via the internet I am glad to see this:



> Dana White: Georges St. Pierre the victim of a stupid cornerman at UFC 94  By: MMAmania
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From:
http://mmamania.com/2009/02/04/dana...e-the-victim-of-a-stupid-cornerman-at-ufc-94/

I put the bold and underline in the quote- but while everyone is going 'round and 'round on this subject it is good to know that even if BJ does not file the complaint the NSAC is using the cameras and will look into this as closely as possible to determine what exactly happened. Of course that won't stop everyone from wild speculation and becoming internet Sherlock Holmes before the commission makes a finding.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

Walker said:


> While everyone endlessly debates this topic via the internet I am glad to see this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a shock, Dana is trying to deflect the blame from one of his most marketable fighters.

Not saying GSP knowingly cheated, but even if he did don't you think Dana would be singing the same tune.


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## joey__stalin (Dec 31, 2006)

Toxic said:


> Its understood by the parties involved that its illegal so I dont get why people are wasting there breathe.


If it's so cut and dry to you, what should happen? Nurse and Jackson suspended from cornering for "X" amount of time? A fine? Fight ruled a no contest? Should GSP be punished too??? I don't see how they can prove GSP knowing cheated. Nurse, yes. Jackson, I don't know. 

We know the rule was broken between 1 and 2. Maybe between 2 and 3. And they weren't between 3 and 4. But rules are broken in every UFC match. Holding the shorts. Holding the fence. Strikes to the back of the head. Strikes to the groin, ect. ect. Warnings are given. Time outs are given. People are toweled off. They all do have their effect on the fight. Being kicked in the groin certainly takes it's chunk out of you, 5 minutes or not. As do strikes to the back of the head. ect. ect.

Off topic, but if they want to stop people from grabbing the fence, why not just add a thin flexible sheet of lexan or something on the inside of the cage?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I dont think GSP should be punished but I would respect him even more if he would step up and apologize for the actions of his corner.


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

I think a lot of you guys are so obsessed with this GSP greasing scandal because you are jealous that he's not on top of *you* all greased up. Only in your wet dreams fanboys, only in your wet dreams......


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

randyspankstito said:


> I think a lot of you guys are so obsessed with this GSP greasing scandal because you are jealous that he's not on top of *you* all greased up. Only in your wet dreams fanboys, only in your wet dreams......


You are absolutely correct.

Also, I agree with Toxic, it might be helpful for GSP to issue some sort of statement in the days/weeks to come.


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

Toxic said:


> I dont think GSP should be punished but I would respect him even more if he would step up and apologize for the actions of his corner.


I'm sure that him and his cornermen will come out with another statement if/when the NSAC/UFC figures out the best course of action once they sort out this debacle. 

Man, such a can of worms has been opened up.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

kc1983 said:


> I'm sure that him and his cornermen will come out with another statement if/when the NSAC/UFC figures out the best course of action once they sort out this debacle.
> 
> Man, such a can of worms has been opened up.


I completely agree with this. GSP, in his latest interview, stated he hasn't even seen the fight yet and he obviously said he does not cheat. So apologizing right not before anything has been determined would only make people more inclined to think there was deliberate cheating going on.

I am sure at some point Nurse, Jackson and everyone involved will be called up before the commission to review the tapes and be asked to explain their actions to determine what exactly transpired. Especially over this incident that is why I think hurling accusations, and in this case an apology, is premature until everything is sorted out and properly reviewed.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

> BJ Penn sends NSAC formal request to investigate Georges St. Pierre at UFC 94 By: MMAmania
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From:
http://mmamania.com/2009/02/04/bj-p...t-to-investigate-georges-st-pierre-at-ufc-94/

Now it's officially official.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

But BJ is still not saying it cost him the fight and he is not trying to overturn the decision, I think BJ is being very classy about this which as much shit talk as BJ does beforehand is ussually how he behaves after a fight win or lose, I wish GSP could say the same.


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## Hellboy (Mar 15, 2008)

Suspend GSP for 6 months, strip him of his belt and have Alves/Fitch 2 for the vacant title.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Hellboy said:


> Suspend GSP for 6 months, strip him of his belt and have Alves/Fitch 2 for the vacant title.


This is probably a bit harsh but Id say GSP should be looking for somebody new to corner him against Alves.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

Hellboy said:


> Suspend GSP for 6 months, strip him of his belt and have Alves/Fitch 2 for the vacant title.


Without a full investigation- that's really intelligent.

Toxic- this part of the complaint: 



> Furthermore, it states the application of Vaseline put Penn at a serious disadvantage during the fight because as a Brazilian jiu-jitsu specialist, “The Prodigy” relies on his ability to apply techniques and strategies designed to immobilize or cause potential injury to his opponent.
> 
> With that ability neutralized, Penn’s attorney contends that his client was put in an environment that was both “life threatening” and “career ending.”


That part leads me to believe that they might very well push for a overturn even though those are normally super-tough to attain. They are within their rights to do so and this investigation be allowed to play out fairly for both parties IMO.

EDIT:

It's been clarified as NOT a formal complaint:



> BJ Penn's Lawyer Asks Nevada State Athletic Commission to Investigate Georges St. Pierre's Corner Activity at UFC 94
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/4/749402/bj-penn-s-lawyer-asks-neva


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## joey__stalin (Dec 31, 2006)

When did this turn into a "*Generous helping*" of vaseline to GSP's back?


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

joey__stalin said:


> When did this turn into a "*Generous helping*" of vaseline to GSP's back?


No kidding. This thing has taken on a life of its own. There is ZERO evidence that anything more than a very small amount made it to GSP's back. It is still wrong and the cornermen should be reprimanded accordingly but nothing more should or will come out of this.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

"generous helping" yeah right. People following this issue will hopefully recognize these embellishments after the fact for what they are, which is bullsh!t.


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## Hellboy (Mar 15, 2008)

GSP is worse than Thiago, Leben and Bonner.


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## Mc19 (Jul 6, 2006)

Hellboy said:


> GSP is worse than Thiago, Leben and Bonner.


 your avator is perfect for a typical ignorant BJ fan.


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## Hellboy (Mar 15, 2008)

Mc19 said:


> your avator is perfect for a typical ignorant BJ fan.


I'm not a BJ fan.


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## Mc19 (Jul 6, 2006)

Hellboy said:


> I'm not a BJ fan.


 lmao, and im not a GSP fan.


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## Hellboy (Mar 15, 2008)

Mc19 said:


> lmao, and im not a GSP fan.


GSP vs BJ for me was really a question of who do I hate less. 

My mind got made up after the weigh in when people were commenting on GSP's penis. 

I decided then that I wanted BJ to win.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

Hellboy said:


> GSP is worse than Thiago, Leben and Bonner.


Good stuff man- keep it up. 

Personally I think GSP is worse than Michael Jackson, Hitler and the Tele-Tubbies. 










:sarcastic12:


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## Hellboy (Mar 15, 2008)

Only the purple one. 

The other 3 are OK. 

Worst Canadian Scumbags list

1. GSP
2. Ben Johnson 
3. Khalib Starnes


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## Philivey2k8 (Apr 22, 2007)

i'd put my tongue on edith's @sshole, greased or not


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

C'mon man- the purple one was cool- it was always the green one that was sketchy.


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## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

Technically Phil Nurse broke the rules. 

The reality though is that such a miniscule amount of vaseline could have been transferred that it is not reasonable to conclude it had an effect on the fight. 

There is nothing to suggest the violation was flagrant or intentional. The NSAC can investigate and I suspect Nurse will be either admonished or reprimanded in some fashion.

For BJ to suggest any of this affected the outcome of the fight is sad. He was simply outclassed. It's time to look inward not look for excuses.


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## Mc19 (Jul 6, 2006)

Hellboy said:


> Only the purple one.
> 
> The other 3 are OK.
> 
> ...


 you belong at sherdog....


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## Jewbacca (May 22, 2008)

Hmm. 
After reading this article I am starting to think that GSP may have been cheating. Executive Director for NSAC speaks in it. All I know for sure is no matter what the result is BJ Penn will be booed next time he fights.

http://mmajunkie.com/news/13913/b-j...fficial-request-into-ufc-94-investigation.mma


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## Hellboy (Mar 15, 2008)

Time to get a new hero, people.


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## Split (Sep 28, 2006)

Coming in late, i probably missed all the gsp haters going nuts, and all the gsp nuthuggers going nuts as well, myself included. 

I watched it again, and unless phil nurse is just doing it on purpose to hide it so well, there is no way he is rubbing gsp to get that vaseline on his body.. I agree that in the 2nd round, it could of made a difference for BJ, and saying it would not affect the outcome of the fight is ridiculous(i almost thought of saying it after watching the fight..).. for all we know, Penn could of avoid damage, or even sweep and start ass whooping, we have no idea, but either way, fair is fair, and if BJ wants to file an official complaint,which is not from what i read(its an investigation), he can go right ahead, but he better back it up when he fights GSP again.. because i did not see vaseline in the first round, and while it was not as bad as the 3 other rounds, GSP took it hands down.

You know what would be awesome?

having this fight no contest(to be fair to BJ, and to GSP since i do not think he asked phil nurse to make him oily..), then having BJ defend his own belt at 155, if GSP can make that weight.. i would like to see that!


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## Robopencil (Feb 7, 2007)

Split said:


> Coming in late, i probably missed all the gsp haters going nuts, and all the gsp nuthuggers going nuts as well, myself included.
> 
> I watched it again, and unless phil nurse is just doing it on purpose to hide it so well, there is no way he is rubbing gsp to get that vaseline on his body.. I agree that in the 2nd round, it could of made a difference for BJ, and saying it would not affect the outcome of the fight is ridiculous(i almost thought of saying it after watching the fight..).. for all we know, Penn could of avoid damage, or even sweep and start ass whooping, we have no idea, but either way, fair is fair, and if BJ wants to file an official complaint,which is not from what i read(its an investigation), he can go right ahead, but he better back it up when he fights GSP again.. because i did not see vaseline in the first round, and while it was not as bad as the 3 other rounds, GSP took it hands down.
> 
> ...


I don't think GSP could make 155. That's a 30 pound cut of just water. If he could he would gas in about 1 minute.


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## Split (Sep 28, 2006)

Robopencil said:


> I don't think GSP could make 155. That's a 30 pound cut of just water. If he could he would gas in about 1 minute.


Yeah i guess you are right.. too bad 

But a rematch would then suck.. i mean its not like there was an obvious moment where BJ had something deep and it slipped, or that BJ had a moment where he was winning.. it was pure domination.. hard to promote that, unless if its based on hate


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## bail3yz (Apr 22, 2007)

zarny said:


> Technically Phil Nurse broke the rules.
> 
> The reality though is that such a miniscule amount of vaseline could have been transferred that it is not reasonable to conclude it had an effect on the fight.
> 
> ...


He never said he would have won if vaseline wasnt involved.. he said GSP was the better fighter. If he said it affected the outcome of the fight.. he could be right. He could have lost by decision instead . He knows he wouldnt have won.. which is why hes not fighting for a NC. BJ might feel that if GSP wasnt so slippery he would have taken less damage and could have continued on. I think what bothers BJ the most is that he lost so bad that his corner threw in the towel.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

bail3yz said:


> He never said he would have won if vaseline wasnt involved.. he said GSP was the better fighter. If he said it affected the outcome of the fight.. he could be right. He could have lost by decision instead . He knows he wouldnt have won.. which is why hes not fighting for a NC. BJ might feel that if GSP wasnt so slippery he would have taken less damage and could have continued on. I think what bothers BJ the most is that he lost so bad that his corner threw in the towel.


but for penn to say that he would have won the fight w/o the vaseline was out of line :laugh:


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## bail3yz (Apr 22, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> but for penn to say that he would have won the fight w/o the vaseline was out of line :laugh:


No, thats the truth.


































jk... did he actually say that?


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## Breadfan (Jan 3, 2008)

I wouldn't say that he WOULD have won, but I think that if BJ couldn't keep a high guard like he normally does he might be eating a lot more punches from the ground... which may have affected the outcome more than what some people think.


GSP fought a better fight given the circumstances, and he won. All I'm saying is that if tables were turned and BJs legs were lubed up and GSP couldn't get a takedown as easily I'm sure the fight would have gone way different.


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## Jewbacca (May 22, 2008)

He said it had a huge effect. That doesn't necessarily mean that he thinks he would have won.

Assuming it did have a huge effect, even if the vaseline wasn't on him and BJ did better, GSP would have still dominated him. GSP dominated BJ so hard that there is no dispute that he would have won that fight no matter what lol.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

bail3yz said:


> No, thats the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah he did right here...check it out BJ Penn interview video


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

I gotta say, BJ's full of it. Even more than usual.


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## towwffc (Jan 1, 2008)

I know just about everything that can be said about this subject has been said. But I just have one thought that popped into my head that I haven't seen on here yet. Everyone is saying that BJ isn't basing this complaint on the outcome of the fight admitting he lost to the better fighter, and he is only doing this for the good of the sport. But if BJ had won that fight, would he have cared enough to still file a complaint? Just a thought.


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## Breadfan (Jan 3, 2008)

towwffc said:


> But if BJ had won that fight, would he have cared enough to still file a complaint? Just a thought.


LoL I dunno, but he wasn't losing the fight when GSP Grabbed his shorts and he surely screamed like a banshee when that happened :laugh:


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## ufcrules (Jan 11, 2007)

Ya, that's why BJ was totally dominated the entire fight and why GSP took him down at will and why GSP passed guard with ease every time he wanted and why BJ looked like he just wanted out from the second round on. It was vaseline all along. GIVE ME A F()CKIN" BREAK!! Give it up BJ NUTHUGGERS. Do you really think BJ wants to fight GSP again any time soon???


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## Robopencil (Feb 7, 2007)

To be honest, assuming GSP wasn't oiled up, I think Penn would have had just as much trouble pulling rubber guard on GSP. Penn wasn't exactly trying to pull the rubber guard from great positions. GSP was sweaty by this time, his torso is tapered, and he's probably the best wrestler Penn has ever faced.

Penn's legs were slipping the same way in round 3 even after GSP had been completely wiped off with both a wet and dry towel. 

On top of all this, the small amount of vaseline on GSP's back was for the most part in the center. Friction in the rubber guard is for the most part concentrated on the sides of your torso and on the outer edge of your traps.


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## Breadfan (Jan 3, 2008)

Robopencil said:


> To be honest, assuming GSP wasn't oiled up, I think Penn would have had just as much trouble pulling rubber guard on GSP. Penn wasn't exactly trying to pull the rubber guard from great positions. GSP was sweaty by this time, his torso is tapered, and he's probably the best wrestler Penn has ever faced.
> 
> Penn's legs were slipping the same way in round 3 even after GSP had been completely wiped off with both a wet and dry towel.
> 
> On top of all this, the small amount of vaseline on GSP's back was for the most part in the center. Friction in the rubber guard is for the most part concentrated on the sides of your torso and on the outer edge of your traps.


FYI this is rubber guard









Rubber guard not in question. High guard is in question.

This is high closed guard







or softcore gay porn


I am mostly playing devil's advocate here, but vasoline is *nothing *like sweat. otherwise they would spritz some water on the fighter's face before each match. :thumb02:


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

southpaw447 said:


> I hope it's a rematch. I wouldn't mind seeing him beat the shit out of Penn again.


Repped!


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