# james tony... 1 mma fight to prove a point...



## anth brown (Apr 27, 2008)

he has stated he only wanted one fight, to prove a point about boxers... if i was dana white, i would offer him a decent amount, give him a tough fight against a real good wrestler, have him pounded out in a round and have dana make a point, as apposed to toney

what do you guys think, if he theoretically gave him a stand up fighter and toney won, then that would make a mockery of mma... do you think dana would try & milk him with a few good wars standing, or just go for making a fool out of boxing by having him crushed ?


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

I completely agree. I think Dana needs to start accepting some of these challenges. 

The UFC used to be in a tough spot where losing one of those fights would have hurt them severly but I don't think it would anymore. 

Put him in with Velasquez or Carwin and see how he feels about MMA afterwards.


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## anth brown (Apr 27, 2008)

420atalon said:


> I completely agree. I think Dana needs to start accepting some of these challenges.
> 
> The UFC used to be in a tough spot where losing one of those fights would have hurt them severly but I don't think it would anymore.
> 
> Put him in with Velasquez or Carwin and see how he feels about MMA afterwards.



carwin!!! now that i would pay to see... it would send shockwaves through the boxing world, especially if toney never even got a punch in before being taken down & G'N'Pounded into the ref stopping it or even worse... a submission! lol

im a boxing fan, but toney needs to shut up


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## KillingRoad89 (Jul 28, 2009)

james toney is too fat to be taken seriously.


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## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

With James Toney winning a MMA fight it doesnt make a mockery of MMA.

Reason being that Ray Mercer already KOed an ex-UFC HW champ in Tim Sylvia.


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## BrianRClover (Jan 4, 2008)

I think the funniest and safest scenario would be to put him against Roy Nelson... if Roy gets him down without getting KO'ed I guarantee a submission, and it will shut Toney up for good, or at least it should.


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## JoshKnows46 (Jun 18, 2007)

JimmyJames said:


> With James Toney winning a MMA fight it doesnt make a mockery of MMA.
> 
> Reason being that Ray Mercer already KOed an ex-UFC HW champ in Tim Sylvia.



there isn't many people that know about that, out of this and other mma forums...if it didn't happen in the ufc, no one cares about it, to be honest....it would be a much bigger deal, and more well know if it happen in the ufc.

give james toney, jon jones or cain velasquiz.


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## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

JoshKnows46 said:


> there isn't many people that know about that, out of this and other mma forums...if it didn't happen in the ufc, no one cares about it, to be honest....it would be a much bigger deal, and more well know if it happen in the ufc.
> 
> give james toney, jon jones or cain velasquiz.


Even if Toney got the fight and won by brutal KO vs a MMA fighter it wouldnt do anything harmful to the UFC or MMA.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

JimmyJames said:


> Even if Toney got the fight and won by brutal KO vs a MMA fighter it wouldnt do anything harmful to the UFC or MMA.


I agree. He would have to submit a BJJ artist or something like that. 

We all know that Boxing is a big part of MMA. As such a professional boxer does have a chance at winning MMA fights.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Put him in against Cain Valesquez. I think thats a very fair matchup for both of them. Cain Valesquez is a highly touted fighter with good a good game all around (in my opinion) Including strategy. N Toney is a very well decorated boxer. If he wants one fight i personally think this fight makes the most sense. Cain even if he gets rocked he will finish getting the takedown and then easiley beat the crap out of him from there. If Toney wins he wins against a Legit mma fighters. Also i think the size difference wont be huge so i think this fight really does make the most sense. It will either show that Boxers have no buisness being in MMA without the proper training or it will show That boxers are the better fighters. I personally am willing to risk this because i have alot of faith in Cain and MMA in general.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Whoever his opponent is should thank their lucky stars. Toney's name and pre-fight smacktalk will sell the fight.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

LOL...put him in with Kimbo and watch Kimbo beat him...I would die....


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## Blitzz (Apr 13, 2009)

Need to put him against Big Mir. Mir's arrogant ass would try to out box him and get KTFO.


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## diablo5597 (Nov 12, 2008)

Blitzz said:


> Need to put him against Big Mir. Mir's arrogant ass would try to out box him and get KTFO.


Mir would sub him in under 20 seconds if he wanted to.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

I think many of you are seriously underestimating just how far ahead in the striking game a boxer like Tony is compared to ALL the HW's in the UFC.

To quote Gray Maynard:-
http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=news.detail&gid=39226



> ...got ready to spar with an 18-year old boxer who was in the Las Vegas gym that day.
> 
> “He was skinny, scrawny,” laughed Maynard. “I said ‘I’ll take it easy on this guy Gil, don’t worry about it.”
> 
> ...


You can be sure Gray isnt the only MMA fighter to discover why boxing is called "the sweet science". The subtleties and nuances are so fine and delicate compared to the hammerfist that is MMA. Dont get me wrong, MMA will develop and keep developing. But, to completely discount a furture hall of famer like Tony? Madness. He could easily take out many HW's as easily as Silva took out Forrest. 

I know he could just as easily be taken down and pounded out, but some respect and balance is needed, so I'm taking Tonys side!


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> LOL...put him in with Kimbo and watch Kimbo beat him...I would die....




HAHAHA! Yeah that would be GREAT if Kimbo actually could pull off that win. I can see James Tony praying to get the Street Fighter, I think Toney would knock Kimbo dead cold! But i know your joking but that would be the biggest mockery to boxing Dana could set up lol. Kimbo would submit Roy Nelson before knocking Toney out... If i know ONE thing from watching Toney box is that, HE HAS A CHIN, even if boxing gloves have insane padding i guarantee all the nervs to Toneys head are shot. I say someone like Cro Cop to me would be the most entertaining, i mean just thinking about how good of a Boxer Toney is, and how Cro cop is a world class KICK boxer / MMA artist, me likey, but Toney could catch him and put him to lala land easily so for a pure dominate fight without picking the HW champ or contender, id say pick someone like JDS where he can knocked Toney out so we dont have to hear any more from him. WE ALL KNOW that Toney is just going to say the guy was scared of me so he took me down to beat me. Yea thats better then him winning and hearing that. But when it comes to fighting Boxing isn't complete, and MMA is, so im convident on ANY HW in UFC PERIOD!!! Sorry Toney but you cant teach an old Dog new tricks, and after going pro in Boxing for 23 years and winning 72 - 6 he is going to have some FREAKY crip/hard shots FOR SURE, but who doesn't know that? And who would he fight in UFC that wouldn't take him down and embarrass him? I cant think of one.... Sorry Houston Alexander is a LW 8p


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Machida Karate said:


> HAHAHA! Yeah that would be GREAT if Kimbo actually could pull off that win. I can see James Tony praying to get the Street Fighter, I think Toney would knock Kimbo dead cold! But i know your joking but that would be the biggest mockery to boxing Dana could set up lol. Kimbo would submit Roy Nelson before knocking Toney out... If i know ONE thing from watching Toney box is that, HE HAS A CHIN, even if boxing gloves have insane padding i guarantee all the nervs to Toneys head or shot. I say someone like Cro Cop to me would be the most entertaining but for pure dominate without picking the HW champ or contender, id say pick someone like JDS where he can knocked Toney out so we dont have to hear any more from him. WE ALL KNOW that Toney is just going to say the guy was scared of me so he took me down to beat me. Yea thats better then him winning and hearing that. But when it comes to fighting Boxing isn't complete, and MMA is, so im convident on ANY HW in UFC


Are you suggesting that JDS could stand there and beat Tony on the feet? lol

Man, I know we are all UFC fans, but come on now...


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

LOL YES I AM SAYING THAT, Obviously if it was a boxing match JDS would lose, So im not trying to say just because he is a MMA fighter he is a better Boxer.... Just better Fighter 8P its because of the fact that 100% JDS will pound the shit out of him the whole first round on the ground, would set up a easy KO on the second round if he can make it past the 1st... I just know if we give him Mir or Roy it will be a SUB and not a KO/TKO, If you really think pure boxing is that great in MMA, wait till you see Toney not being able to use his "Sweet Science" because he is to focused on not gettting Takin Down, or getting kicked to the Legs/Body Toney is in a WHOLE new world my friend ULL SEE :sarcastic12:


As long as he doesn't get no Ben Rothwell or someone that will try there same style, and not well rounded enough to base there performance and style off Toneys weaknesses, I dont think Rothwell or fighters like him are that well rounded as MMA fighters yet.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

> Are you suggesting that JDS could stand there and beat Tony on the feet?





Machida Karate said:


> LOL YES I AM SAYING THAT, Obviously if it was a boxing match JDS would lose, So im not trying to say just because he is a MMA fighter he is a better Boxer.... Just better Fighter 8P its because of the fact that 100% JDS will pound the shit out of him the whole first round on the ground, would set up a easy KO on the second round if he can make it past the 1st.


A little contradiction there my friend, but anyway...

Of course thats what likely to happen. I'm not denying that. But to talk as if an MMA guy can take Tony down 100% is plain nonsense. 90%-95% I can accept. To take somebody down, you're open to a punch. Thats the simple fact of it. There's a chance you are gonna get KTFO.

GSP is the master at setting up his takedowns so he doesnt take a punch. He creates holes with striking of his own to get a clean takedown. NOBODY else in the UFC can do what GSP does in this regard. Every other fighter who likes a takedown has taken at least some damage doing so in their fights. Either in the takedown attempt or if the opponent stuffs it, in the escape.

If Tony punches JDS in the face while hes coming in for a takedown, hes finished. Boxers work in slow-mo when it comes to openings for punches. Why do fighters not like to try and take Silva down? Because god help you if you stuff it. Thats how you have to think when trying to take down a pure boxer.


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## Cptmats (Dec 27, 2009)

I think a decent striker with good low kick could turn him into a pylon and knock him out. Boxing and MMA are two completey dif. games. Im sure no one is gonna stand and trade with him. Chopped the legs out from under him and the hands will go too.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Ok. To add another example. If it was Tony who punched Cain in the face instead of Kongo, Cain would have stayed down. Kongo connected twice before the fight went anywhere near kicks/takedowns/other mma stuff. Is it so infeasible that Tony could connect well before the fight hits the mat?

Look, I'm not saying Tony will win. He'll "most likely" lose. I just cant completely discard what Tony brings to the table quite as readily as many of you are is all. Not quite.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

OK I dont think JDS even hast to take Toney down.... Toney is just in the wrong sport my friend, i mean think about it, JDS would never have to worry about James throwing any leg kicks of coarse, and NEVER go for any type of Wrestling/Judo/BJJ/ or Muay Thai... So you see him just going pure boxing with no knees Muay Thai clinches or anything and just knocking a Top HW like JDS or Cain out?....Its just NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, they will have WAYYYY to many differnt tools to mix it up and make him look way out of his league.... And if Toney fought Kongo he wouldnt even make it past the first round with how many leg kicks would be flying at him... Because there is only one big flaw with Kicks.... It leaves you open for the takedown OH WAIT not a problem.... And I wasn't saying he was going to have a 100% on takedown rate... Just 100% he will get him to the ground one way or another and teach him how to play MMA lol... Toney is a FREAKY GOOD BOXER so he is convident and anyone even Kimbo can get lucky with a clean shot that Ends the fight but a 95% chance says he is about to get a BIG wake-up call, i see him losing to any top ten HW 9/10 times. But on a side note i cant wait to see how he has been practicing his ground game, i mean its obvious he isn't going to be training boxing the night before his fight lol... We all know Toney stands no real chance i think even he knows that deep down, and i watched his last boxing fight he had where he lost. I think this is his attempt to juice as much money from this new sport as he can win or lose. Hence why he is talking so much smack..... Obvious smack but effective smack, sence we all want him dead now after saying "Just one fight to prove my point" lol he knows he is the first REAL BIG boxer to do this Boxer meets UFC MMA Fight Payout! TONEY U SMART JERK! raise01:


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Give him CroCop. CroCop even though in a huge slump would give him 1 kick to the legs and toney would be scared for the rest of the fight. Toneys Hands are better then anyone elses... but for all the other limbs.. Toney gets beat, BAD.


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## looney liam (Jun 22, 2007)

i think ray mercer already proved a point against tim sylvia, its just a good job that fight can only be seen on the internet.

tony may only know boxing, but that's all he may need. it took all of 9 seconds for cantwell to ktfo tim sylvia. these boxers know exactly how to ko a guy with one punch. 

imo its a bit of a risk putting a contender against tony; chances are he'll either get mauled in the grappling department or score a quick KO which would just embarrass mma.

put him against someone the likes of tim hague. hague is definately capable of taking toney down and dominating. he did the same to pat barry after he realised he was going to get wrecked in the standup. if a 'great' boxer like tony loses to a ufc nobody it won't stand well for boxing. whereas he wins it doesn't really affect anything.


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## Servatose (Apr 21, 2008)

It's my opinion that Tony could easily knock out someone like JDS or Cro Cop, someone who would test their stand up against him. I certainly think both fighters are more diverse, but the fact is, the guy was a champion in a very, very deep and technical sport, that's far older than MMA. If he did score a punch or two, it would most likely be over for his opponent. 

If you want Tony to undoubtedly lose, you'd have to give him a contender. Or at least someone who has the potential to be a contender. Someone like Roy Nelson would be great. That's a fight I'd never see Roy losing. Frank Mir would be fun. Frank knows not to fight in his opponent's strong spot. Couture would probably destroy Tony. I'd be nervous about Cain just because he seems like he's one who might take a couple of shots before getting it to the ground, something that could not happen against Tony.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Servatose said:


> It's my opinion that Tony could easily knock out someone like JDS or Cro Cop, someone who would test their stand up against him. I certainly think both fighters are more diverse, but the fact is, the guy was a champion in a very, very deep and technical sport, that's far older than MMA. If he did score a punch or two, it would most likely be over for his opponent.
> 
> If you want Tony to undoubtedly lose, you'd have to give him a contender. Or at least someone who has the potential to be a contender. Someone like Roy Nelson would be great. That's a fight I'd never see Roy losing. Frank Mir would be fun. Frank knows not to fight in his opponent's strong spot. Couture would probably destroy Tony. I'd be nervous about Cain just because he seems like he's one who might take a couple of shots before getting it to the ground, something that could not happen against Tony.




Well we can all agree that Toney like all other HW's have a chance to knock someone out with a single shot... My main point why this shouldn't be hard is the fact that Toney is bringing one thing to the table and thats it... Cain had to worry about A LOT more against Kongo then he will with Toney with Kongo's leg kicks and FREAKY long arms and legs, but Id rather not have Cain because we all saw him take hits with his sad stand-up but i dont see how Toney is going to be able to throw a punch a fighter wont see for a hundred miles away... As long as the fighter is kinda smart your going to see first round 30 leg kicks, second round Toney has Jelly Belly legs and is scared because he never fought with so many limbs.... Lets face it legs are stronger and twice as long as arms, and with no wrestling or Judo throws or takedowns to worry about.... I dont see how this is a tough fight to any smart fighter... Its just to hard to go for Toney when its as easy as taking the guy down once and you win the fight... Toney better have good TakeDown D or he better be able to get back to his feet if he is going to be calling out, the most complete fighting sport in the world....:thumbsdown:


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Soojooko said:


> Are you suggesting that JDS could stand there and beat Tony on the feet? lol
> 
> Man, I know we are all UFC fans, but come on now...


Absolutly, I think you really underestimate how much kicks change the game, Ray Mercer twice attempted his hand at K-1 (before he retired from boxing and before his last boxing title fight), he lost both fights. I realize JDS may not be K-1 championship material but you mix in the clinch and a few TD's just to throw Tony off an I definalty think he could take him standing.


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

Are people forgetting the that the best boxer of all time muhammad ali has been in a MMA fight ? He lost and had a busted leg becuase of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=190a2dzPM8k


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Absolutly, I think you really underestimate how much kicks change the game, Ray Mercer twice attempted his hand at K-1 (before he retired from boxing and before his last boxing title fight), he lost both fights. I realize JDS may not be K-1 championship material but you mix in the clinch and a few TD's just to throw Tony off an I definalty think he could take him standing.




THANK U, i agree i mean its like almost not even fair... Like Toney is insanly deadly because he can go 9 rounds and still knock out a guy its insane... Once again this isn't boxing, and JDS is used to using EVERYTHING to end fights in just min's.... And if he just sat there training with the best boxers he can find, his style will not just destroy Toney but make him look really amatuar in MMA, i wonder what Toney would do if someone like Shane Carwin got a hold of him and started throwing knees and then pick him up over his head and slammed him. I would be worried that Toney might be able to pull off a Tim Sylva but that aint going to happen if he wants to fight a UFC HW that Dana and Joe Silva will pick out... This is going to get nasty!


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Servatose said:


> It's my opinion that Tony could easily knock out someone like JDS or Cro Cop, someone who would test their stand up against him. I certainly think both fighters are more diverse, but the fact is, the guy was a champion in a very, very deep and technical sport, that's far older than MMA. If he did score a punch or two, it would most likely be over for his opponent.
> 
> If you want Tony to undoubtedly lose, you'd have to give him a contender. Or at least someone who has the potential to be a contender. Someone like Roy Nelson would be great. That's a fight I'd never see Roy losing. Frank Mir would be fun. Frank knows not to fight in his opponent's strong spot. Couture would probably destroy Tony. I'd be nervous about Cain just because he seems like he's one who might take a couple of shots before getting it to the ground, something that could not happen against Tony.


Toney, as a heavyweight, never had knockout power. Look up his record on boxrec.com and you will see that as he got heavier his tko percentage dropped abysmally. The only person he ever stopped within 3 rounds is a complete unknown.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

Either way it goes Tony is trying to discredit MMA...just look at it he only wants one fight so he wants a stand up guy so he can cave in his face. If they take hime down and GnP/Sub him he will say that MMA fighters are scared of him.....I think its a lose lose.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Toney, as a heavyweight, never had knockout power. Look up his record on boxrec.com and you will see that as he got heavier his tko percentage dropped abysmally. The only person he ever stopped within 3 rounds is a complete unknown.




Oooooo I C, so ill got to BOXrec.com to learn how Toney punches with 5 ounce gloves???? Now im lost is this a MMA Forum or a Boxing forum because unless Toney is fighting with 5 pound boxing gloves i dont get your point....:sarcastic12:


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Toney, as a heavyweight, never had knockout power. Look up his record on boxrec.com and you will see that as he got heavier his tko percentage dropped abysmally. The only person he ever stopped within 3 rounds is a complete unknown.


^this pretty much sums up my view on tony knocking people out. no tdd, no leg kick defense, no muai tai defense.... yea lol james would definetly get a ko victory against a real mma fighter:confused05:

-fact is the proven way to stop a boxer is the muai tai clinch, put him in with anyone that has a chin and good muai tai and what you get is knees to the skull. see wanderlei/rampage 1 or 2 (before rampage became more technically sound) or the more recent fight between marcus davis and ben saunders.

[email protected] 
the point is toney does not have the ko power anymore. i will go even further: he probably doesn't have the cardio or speed to close the distance anymore (when was his last fight anyway?) got lots of respect and love for boxing but he is over the hill just trying to get paid imo.

i wouldn't be surprised if he threw in the towel after a good 5 min of leg kicks


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

Man Toney is playing this so smart, the more he trash talks and bigs himself up and disses MMA the more people want to see him put against a wrestler to be pounded out or tapped by a submission artist. The more people hate him and want to see him get mashed the more likely it is he fights and the more people want to see it.

Win or Lose if he gets a good deal he gets a pretty decent pay-check, which is the only reason I think he is doing it.

And for the dude a few above, Rocky Marciano > Muhammed Ali

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XKcGRREcaM

p.S how do you embed videos? Still haven't got it to work.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Cptmats said:


> I think a decent striker with good low kick could turn him into a pylon and knock him out. Boxing and MMA are two completey dif. games. Im sure no one is gonna stand and trade with him. Chopped the legs out from under him and the hands will go too.


^^^THIS^^^



Toroian said:


> Are people forgetting the that the best boxer of all time muhammad ali has been in a MMA fight ? He lost and had a busted leg becuase of it
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=190a2dzPM8k


Intresting..Good find....horrible fight...



Thelegend said:


> ^this pretty much sums up my view on tony knocking people out. no tdd, no leg kick defense, no muai tai defense.... yea lol james would definetly get a ko victory against a real mma fighter:confused05:
> 
> -fact is the proven way to stop a boxer is the muai tai clinch, put him in with anyone that has a chin and good muai tai and what you get is knees to the skull. see wanderlei/rampage 1 or 2 (before rampage became more technically sound) or the more recent fight between marcus davis and ben saunders.
> 
> ...


He really dos not have the cardio that you need in boxing, really in alot of his fights he is ver stationary, not really moving much just standing there punching, really i think he will get murdered....


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Machida Karate said:


> Oooooo I C, so ill got to BOXrec.com to learn how Toney punches with 5 ounce gloves???? Now im lost is this a MMA Forum or a Boxing forum because unless Toney is fighting with 5 pound boxing gloves i dont get your point....:sarcastic12:


People seem to assume that Toney can walk into MMA and knock out huge men with a punch or two when there is no precedent for it. That is the reference to his record. He has not become a more powerful puncher as he has gotten heavier. The reverse has happened and he has needed the duration of his fights to tire out his opponents at heavyweight (all of which I have seen). 

Btw...Boxing gloves are from 8 to 10 ounces.


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## Brutus (May 27, 2007)

Im just laughing that Toney a 40 year old has been claims he doing this for the world of boxing. Hes doing it because he cant be competitive with the top dogs in the boxing hw division and wants a last paycheck. He stands no chance atleast the Klitscho brothers would have size and power to atleast have a chance of knocking somone out but Toney is just a bum these days.


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## Cptmats (Dec 27, 2009)

Brutus said:


> Im just laughing that Toney a 40 year old has been claims he doing this for the world of boxing. Hes doing it because he cant be competitive with the top dogs in the boxing hw division and wants a last paycheck. He stands no chance atleast the Klitscho brothers would have size and power to atleast have a chance of knocking somone out but Toney is just a bum these days.


Dana white made a similar point in regards to Hershal Walker, All his accomplishment , possible one of the best football players of all time. So why isnt he playing football anymore?......Cause he's too [email protected]#$king old !


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Machida Karate said:


> Oooooo I C, so ill got to BOXrec.com to learn how Toney punches with 5 ounce gloves???? Now im lost is this a MMA Forum or a Boxing forum because unless Toney is fighting with 5 pound boxing gloves i dont get your point....:sarcastic12:


Further...why do you think that there is even a discussion of Toney fighting in the UFC, his ability to ride a bicycle? It is because he is a boxer and because of his boxing record. There is nothing else to go on. He has no MMA experience (no wrestling, no BJJ, no kick boxing...nothing). So, maybe you'd like to re-think why his boxing record (and his ko power) is important/relevant.


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

Toney is figuring if the UFC put a tool in front of him like Strikeforce did with Mercer and Silvia ( a complete idiot for even thinking about boxing) then he would have a very good chance for a win. Dana isn't that stupid, it would be awesome to put a healthy Brock Lesnar in against Toney. I guess I'm still a little perplexed that there is still arguement about the match up between boxing and MMA. In boxing you only have to worry about the hands, in MMA you have to worry about the hands and everything else, it's a no brainer. It's like the arguement going on in Japan about what's harder to do K1 or MMA? In K1 you only have to worry about the strikes, in MMA it's the strikes and everything else. So far overseas we've only seen MMA guys fight under K1 rules, let's see a K1 guy do MMA, say Badr Hari against Alistair Overeem for the rubber match?


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## Cptmats (Dec 27, 2009)

dave-stjohn said:


> Toney is figuring if the UFC put a tool in front of him like Strikeforce did with Mercer and Silvia ( a complete idiot for even thinking about boxing) then he would have a very good chance for a win. Dana isn't that stupid, it would be awesome to put a healthy Brock Lesnar in against Toney. I guess I'm still a little perplexed that there is still arguement about the match up between boxing and MMA. In boxing you only have to worry about the hands, in MMA you have to worry about the hands and everything else, it's a no brainer. It's like the arguement going on in Japan about what's harder to do K1 or MMA? In K1 you only have to worry about the strikes, in MMA it's the strikes and everything else. So far overseas we've only seen MMA guys fight under K1 rules, let's see a K1 guy do MMA, say Badr Hari against Alistair Overeem for the rubber match?


Actually we've seen a few K1 fighter in MMA, Cro Cop, Mark hunt, Jerome LeBanner .


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Give Toney 1 fight, against Jon Jones. Let Jones make a name for himself by slamming Toney on his head and knocking him out, and then tell Toney to jog on. Won't happen though, it's guaranteed that if the UFC sign Toney he'll be fighting Kimbo.


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## Cptmats (Dec 27, 2009)

Danm2501 said:


> I've said it before, I'll say it again. Give Toney 1 fight, against Jon Jones. Let Jones make a name for himself by slamming Toney on his head and knocking him out, and then tell Toney to jog on. Won't happen though, it's guaranteed that if the UFC sign Toney he'll be fighting Kimbo.


If dana give him a fight there no way it will be against Kimbo, Dana isnt gonna sighn Toney just to be made a fool of. If this fight happens it will be against a top tier wrestler or sub. artist like Carwin or big Nog.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Further...why do you think that there is even a discussion of Toney fighting in the UFC, his ability to ride a bicycle? It is because he is a boxer and because of his boxing record. There is nothing else to go on. He has no MMA experience (no wrestling, no BJJ, no kick boxing...nothing). So, maybe you'd like to re-think why his boxing record (and his ko power) is important/relevant.


 
Yeah for one thats really funny that you thought i was serious about 5 pound boxing gloves.... And no kidding there is no other record to go off of because he is a Boxer but at the same time your not suppost to be stupid enough to think the RESULTS will be even near the same with the MMA 5 ounce gloves..... And MMA RULES...... And Tony will throw a lot more punches and more into his punches because there are 3 rounds not 10 and it will be NOTHING like a boxing match......so PLEASE use your head my friend :thumbsup: and stop judging Boxing Results where the rules and everything are WAY differnt.... If Tony knocks someone out in MMA the Ref isnt going to start counting to ten, and just because Tony has been fighting Iron Chin Pro Boxers his whole life with those big ass boxing gloves, doesn't APPLY TO MMA, but im sure that all flew over your head, and still think he is going in MMA with the same KO power with padding that just protects the knuckles LOL, I would love to demonstrate the differnce in KO power between gloves on you i think you would change your mind on judging on Boxing results for MMA outcomes lol.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

dave-stjohn said:


> Toney is figuring if the UFC put a tool in front of him like Strikeforce did with Mercer and Silvia ( a complete idiot for even thinking about boxing) then he would have a very good chance for a win. Dana isn't that stupid, it would be awesome to put a healthy Brock Lesnar in against Toney. I guess I'm still a little perplexed that there is still arguement about the match up between boxing and MMA. In boxing you only have to worry about the hands, in MMA you have to worry about the hands and everything else, it's a no brainer. It's like the arguement going on in Japan about what's harder to do K1 or MMA? In K1 you only have to worry about the strikes, in MMA it's the strikes and everything else. So far overseas we've only seen MMA guys fight under K1 rules, let's see a K1 guy do MMA, say Badr Hari against Alistair Overeem for the rubber match?





Cptmats said:


> Actually we've seen a few K1 fighter in MMA, Cro Cop, Mark hunt, Jerome LeBanner .


Semmy Schilt as well, he fought Fedor at Pride 21 and Nog at Pride 23. But he is actually both a K-1 and an MMA fighter but definetely a better K-1 fighter like he showed us again this year.


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## Godzuki (Feb 26, 2007)

Machida Karate said:


> Yeah for one thats really funny that you thought i was serious about 5 pound boxing gloves.... And no kidding there is no other record to go off of because he is a Boxer but at the same time your not suppost to be stupid enough to think the RESULTS will be even near the same with the MMA 5 ounce gloves..... And MMA RULES...... And Tony will throw a lot more punches and more into his punches because there are 3 rounds not 10 and it will be NOTHING like a boxing match......so PLEASE use your head my friend :thumbsup: and stop judging Boxing Results where the rules and everything are WAY differnt.... If Tony knocks someone out in MMA the Ref isnt going to start counting to ten, and just because Tony has been fighting Iron Chin Pro Boxers his whole life with those big ass boxing gloves, doesn't APPLY TO MMA, but im sure that all flew over your head, and still think he is going in MMA with the same KO power with padding that just protects the knuckles LOL, I would love to demonstrate the differnce in KO power between gloves on you i think you would change your mind on judging on Boxing results for MMA outcomes lol.


But, the boxing records *do* show that Toney's knock out ability diminished over time and as his weight increased. The differences between Boxing and MMA has no affect on the relevance of that fact. Just because they are boxing records, it doesn't mean that you can't glean useful and relevant information from them.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Godzuki said:


> But, the boxing records *do* show that Toney's knock out ability diminished over time and as his weight increased. The differences between Boxing and MMA has no affect on the relevance of that fact. Just because they are boxing records, it doesn't mean that you can't glean useful and relevant information from them.


 

Dude who isn't getting GLEAN info from his boxing record.... WERE GETTING ALL OF OUR INFO FROM HIS BOXING RECORD..... What else could we get info from??? But If you actually read what i was saying to Mr Sparkle I was replying to his Post of and i quote

" Toney, as a heavyweight, never had knockout power. Look up his record on boxrec.com and you will see that as he got heavier his tko percentage dropped abysmally. The only person he ever stopped within 3 rounds is a complete unknown"

His TKO percentage does NOT apply to MMA's 5 ounce gloves.... Thats like me Judging Anderson Silva's KO power off of his Boxing record.... Ive seen him throw like 6 fully powered shots to the guys dome with him only getting him dazed.... Anderson drops guys like James Irvin in one shot with his MMA gloves.... Hence why MMA is so much better and action packed??? And plus Tony only fought like that because it was more effective for him OBVIOUSLY and he obviously knows that there isn't 10 rounds to try to wear the guy out............... You insult a very heavy hitter in James Toney.... Its funny how 98% of HW's in UFC if not 100% have KO power and your trying to say this Professional BOXER that has only been punching a bag and heads for the last 30 something years has no KO power with only a half an inch of padding.... U guys need to get your facts straight. Let me guess u watched Machida's karate fights so u can guess the outcome of his Rematch with Shogun? LOL! Differnt sport differnt strategy boys... You should know this


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

I'm pretty sure no one wants to see James Toney die in the ring. He should stop being so mouthy. Give him a BJJ dude if he's so confident.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Machida Karate said:


> Yeah for one thats really funny that you thought i was serious about 5 pound boxing gloves.... And no kidding there is no other record to go off of because he is a Boxer but at the same time your not suppost to be stupid enough to think the RESULTS will be even near the same with the MMA 5 ounce gloves..... And MMA RULES...... And Tony will throw a lot more punches and more into his punches because there are 3 rounds not 10 and it will be NOTHING like a boxing match......so PLEASE use your head my friend :thumbsup: and stop judging Boxing Results where the rules and everything are WAY differnt.... If Tony knocks someone out in MMA the Ref isnt going to start counting to ten, and just because Tony has been fighting Iron Chin Pro Boxers his whole life with those big ass boxing gloves, doesn't APPLY TO MMA, but im sure that all flew over your head, and still think he is going in MMA with the same KO power with padding that just protects the knuckles LOL, I would love to demonstrate the differnce in KO power between gloves on you i think you would change your mind on judging on Boxing results for MMA outcomes lol.


No, I didn't think you were serious about the gloves,I was just pointing out that your comparison was inapt. You were trying in your sarcasm to create a greater disparity between the gloves used in MMA and boxing. 

Now, I have boxed, kick boxed and I have trained in and fought in MMA, so I know the difference. A couple of my training partners were 2 time world champion kick boxer, Stan Peterec and North American kickboxing champion Phsemek Walsch. I have also trained at the Gracie Academy in Torrence. One of my former students has also fought in the UFC, John Alessio (can't say I can take much credit for his success in the UFC, but I used to teach him freestyle fighting). Thanks thought for the threating gesture of, "demonstrate the differnce in KO power between gloves on you", but I think I stick with my experiences with people I know can punch.

So, that said, I know the difference between the two styles of fighting and I also know that the only thing we have to go on is Toney's boxing ability. Putting on 5 ounce gloves and stepping into the Octagon is not going to magically change him into something he is not. He is not going to be able to throw a lot more punches with a lot more power if he is being smothered or kicked in the legs, now is he. This is not a 3 round boxing match where one has to adjust to the shorter time limit and pick up the pace as the opportunity to do so will not be there. Toney will have to rely on some serious head hunting with the few shots he'll be able to get off. Now, he could do it, but, as I have painfully tried to demonstrate, he does not have knock out power against big men (glove size or not). Or, do you think his opponents are just going to rush in hands down and allow him to fire away? I think it is you who needs to do a lot more critical thinking. 

So, again, hoping you can get this: all we have is his boxing record to go on and it paints a less than pretty picture of his ability over three rounds in a sport which he possesses only one skill set to magically change his ways and overcome kicking, wrestling, grappling and fire more punches than he would normally throw in a fight with the potential of being clinched and kicked and then to knock out big men, which he has never been able to do previously.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> No, I didn't think you were serious about the gloves,I was just pointing out that your comparison was inapt. You were trying in your sarcasm to create a greater disparity between the gloves used in MMA and boxing.
> 
> Now, I have boxed, kick boxed and I have trained in and fought in MMA, so I know the difference. A couple of my training partners were 2 time world champion kick boxer, Stan Peterec and North American kickboxing champion Phsemek Walsch. I have also trained at the Gracie Academy in Torrence. One of my former students has also fought in the UFC, John Alessio (can't say I can take much credit for his success in the UFC, but I used to teach him freestyle fighting). Thanks thought for the threating gesture of, "demonstrate the differnce in KO power between gloves on you", but I think I stick with my experiences with people I know can punch.
> 
> ...


 


Im sorry if i came off disrespectful i didn't mean anything personal. And im 90% sure Joe Silva will pick a guy that will easily beat James Toney, but i do know that he is convident and has a very good chin so going off his opponent which we don't know yet, if he will get a ground guy or striker, (ether way i think the guy will take Toney down) but if he gets a Striker he might catch him before the takedown and i think if he can land a clean shot on the button that dude is going down, and there wont be no Ref to stop him from finishing the dude like they would in boxing, i cant say ive watched all of his fights probably only saw bout ten, but im sure he could of gotten some more KO's on that record... Ether way sorry if i came off like a jerk.... and ether way i cant wait to see the outcome:thumb02:
And i dont think when he enters the octigon he is going to magically change, but he isn't going to have the same stategy as he did in boxing taking his time, i agree with you on that he is going to have to do some serious head hunting but that just means what ever he does throw is going to have a lot of pepper in it, and being a champ and having a gas tank to go ten rounds no problem i dont see him getting tired, but once again judging on who he fights, all it takes are some clean leg kicks from a HW to make him into a jelly belly and get taken down with ease... He is going to have to do some adjustments because he cant go in there worried about kicks and takedowns and Mauy Thai clinches and knees, while his opponent only has to worry bout the head shots and body shots.... First body shot from Toney can easily lead to a clinch where he take nar knees, cant wait for the fight


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## Inkdot (Jun 15, 2009)

Machida Karate said:


> Yeah for one thats really funny that you thought i was serious about 5 pound boxing gloves.... And no kidding there is no other record to go off of because he is a Boxer but at the same time your not suppost to be stupid enough to think the RESULTS will be even near the same with the MMA 5 ounce gloves..... And MMA RULES...... And Tony will throw a lot more punches and more into his punches because there are 3 rounds not 10 and it will be NOTHING like a boxing match......so PLEASE use your head my friend :thumbsup: and stop judging Boxing Results where the rules and everything are WAY differnt.... If Tony knocks someone out in MMA the Ref isnt going to start counting to ten, and just because Tony has been fighting Iron Chin Pro Boxers his whole life with those big ass boxing gloves, doesn't APPLY TO MMA, but im sure that all flew over your head, and still think he is going in MMA with the same KO power with padding that just protects the knuckles LOL, *I would love to demonstrate the differnce in KO power between gloves on you* i think you would change your mind on judging on Boxing results for MMA outcomes lol.


You should get banned for saying that. Both trolling and physically threatening another poster? Lol when did this become Sherdog?


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

As dangerous as toney is he has nothing to lose. Dana puts him in against a good fighter and he wins it sends shockwave around the mma world. Toney loose people will be o well he's 40 out of his prime and his 100 boxing match probably effected his performance.


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## skybluesazip (Oct 13, 2009)

There has never been a better reason for arlovski to come back.
He could maybe hang with tony (although that weak chin could be a factor) and he has a half decent ground game to sub him. I do however think he's silly enough to stand and trade with him 

Screw it put him in with shogun and wait till he throws that first leg kick or knee at him

also according to fight night round 4 he only ways 220 so wouldn't he be more suited to cutting to 205


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## daveh98 (May 26, 2007)

dave-stjohn said:


> Toney is figuring if the UFC put a tool in front of him like Strikeforce did with Mercer and Silvia ( a complete idiot for even thinking about boxing) then he would have a very good chance for a win. Dana isn't that stupid, it would be awesome to put a healthy Brock Lesnar in against Toney. I guess I'm still a little perplexed that there is still arguement about the match up between boxing and MMA. In boxing you only have to worry about the hands, in MMA you have to worry about the hands and everything else, it's a no brainer. It's like the arguement going on in Japan about what's harder to do K1 or MMA? In K1 you only have to worry about the strikes, in MMA it's the strikes and everything else. So far overseas we've only seen MMA guys fight under K1 rules, let's see a K1 guy do MMA, say Badr Hari against Alistair Overeem for the rubber match?


This is the kind of ignorance that gives MMA a bad name and a reason I think the UFC is changing for the worse (I will explain this at the latter part of the post).

Boxing isn't just hands and mma isn't some finalized formula. As Gray Maynard poignantly discussed, boxing is extremely well-established, DEEP, and extremely technical. Boxing has a whole different skill set than MMA. Boxing however would NOT translate perfectly IF a boxer decided to do MMA. 

Boxing relies heavily on feint's footwork, some use shoulder rolls, etc. Have you watched TUF when the fighters try doing the speed bag? Come on dude.... B level boxers are leagues above the best in MMA in regards to using hands. Go watch some prime Roy jones junior, prince hamed, mike tyson, pac man. Heck go watch Paul Williams Vs Martinez that was on a month ago. That is HIGH level talent. 

Just because MMA has "other things to look out for" doesn't make it deeper or more technical. One is more generalized (MMA) one is more specialized (boxing). Maynard saw that an 18 year old amateur could school him in seconds with his hands. Is he insecure about it? No. TOP MMA guys train with boxers! Jenz Pulver BEGGED his friend Tim Sylvia to NOT take that fight because of the intricacies in boxing that MMA fighters DON'T have to worry about. 

MMA is still growing at fast rate. Look at how it has evolved over the past 15 years or so. You had BJJ being "the end all" followed by "Tito GNP" and the "hughes era" then the GSP and Silva era (I am being very general here). So people are still trying to find the "perfect mix" to be tops. I mean you have people with very few fights going on TUF and then training hard for a year and getting 6 figure contracts. It DOESN'T take years to learn TDD and basic skills while keeping a main focus on 1 discipline and doing well. In boxing they took top 10 contenders ranked with records from 10-2 to 22-0 and had them vie for a huge contract. The winners have gone on to fight A- fighters with names and not ONE contender has gotten fame. They get destroyed by top level boxers. The talent is so deep that you just can't have "good hands." At the top of boxing your reflexes, speed, athletisim, heart and chin are leagues above B level boxers. 

Now onto why this fight should NOT happen. I am sick of UFC catering to the casual fan to get even more money than they already have. How about giving a legit MMA up and comer a shot instead of some freak show match. There are many many many better fighters than kimbo but he gets a spot because he sells seats? That is lame. What is also lame is standing fighters up after a crowd boos because they are doing HIGH LEVEL transitions on the ground but the crowd is too dumb to see. What is lame is pitting "styles makes fights" in striker vs striker or striker vs grappler and rarely doing grappler vs grappler. UFC has been selling out and true MMA fans see this. True MMA fans and fighters know boxing is sweet, high level and completely different than MMA. Boxers know the same. Boxers DO respect MMA. 

Sorry but posts like the one i quoted where some guy who never stepped foot in the ring who says "boxers only have to worry about hands" is complete ignorance that I can't tolerate. I box and do MMA. My golden gloves past allows me to dominate standup in my MMA gyms but my ground game is so weak once I get taken down. 

To close...IF a boxer (18-25) made the transition and TRAINED MMA..they would be FIERCE. If wrestlers make the transition and then train other modalities..don't think a boxer would just come in thinking that they wouldn't have to train the other ones either. But for some reason, some peopel on the forum just assume a boxer would only "box" and not train. But until the UFC stops the freak show fights, gets back to its roots and starts PAYING their fights.....boxers will stick with what they know and what pays. Just my opinion I guess...but a damn educated one philosophically and speaken from a guy who steps foot in the ring. peace out.


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## Thiago_Alves (Sep 11, 2009)

I would seriously love a fight like this making a boxing vs mma !


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## munkie (Sep 28, 2009)

What point is Tony trying prove? That he is fucked once he gets kicked? Or that he is fucked when he is put on the ground?


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## Thiago_Alves (Sep 11, 2009)

I think both of them.. maybe a knee , who knows..haha


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Inkdot said:


> You should get banned for saying that. Both trolling and physically threatening another poster? Lol when did this become Sherdog?


Lets not get sensitive here. He kinda has a point, The poster will realize the difference quicker on him then he would if it was demostrated on someone else.


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## Cptmats (Dec 27, 2009)

skybluesazip said:


> There has never been a better reason for arlovski to come back.
> He could maybe hang with tony (although that weak chin could be a factor) and he has a half decent ground game to sub him. I do however think he's silly enough to stand and trade with him
> 
> Screw it put him in with shogun and wait till he throws that first leg kick or knee at him
> ...


Lol Arlovski coulnd handle Tim Silvya's Stand up


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Inkdot said:


> You should get banned for saying that. Both trolling and physically threatening another poster? Lol when did this become Sherdog?


 
Im glad he wasn't ignorent to think i was serious and not just trying to make a point.... ive seen girls less sensitive true story :thumb02:


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

Art Jimmerson says hello


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Vale_Tudo said:


> Art Jimmerson says hello


Say hi back and ask him if he ever found his other glove.


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## skybluesazip (Oct 13, 2009)

Cptmats said:


> Lol Arlovski coulnd handle Tim Silvya's Stand up


True but I think the first fight he did plus the secound fight was a fluke the way I see it. But I still think he has the best boxing at hw although I think jds may take that soon .


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Vale_Tudo said:


> Art Jimmerson says hello


Yea... and so does Tim Silvia, if we're gonna start scraping barrels for comparisons.

Art Jimmerson went on to lose 15 of his next 17 or 18 fights to complete no bodies after the Gracie shambles. To compare him to Tony, who has won over 30 fights since then is absurd.

Having said all that... I reluctantly admit your post made me laugh! :laugh: That Art vs Royce fight was awful.


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## JiPi (Oct 3, 2009)

Give him Gonzaga.


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## machidaisgod (Aug 14, 2009)

Nelson-Toney, Yeah it will be the battle to see who is fat cell for fat cell the best...bring it on !!!!!!


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