# Thiago Silva: Rashad Doesn't Have The Tools To Beat Shogun



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Thiago Silva has come close to his division’s belt, but the loss to the former champions Lyoto Machida and Rashad Evans disturbed the plans of the American Top Team’s athlete. Having fought for the last time in January, he wants to get back to a good sequence starting with a win over Tim Boetsch, on UFC 117, which happens on August 7. On an interview to TATAME, Thiago talked about the recovery of his back injury, commented the style of the game of his opponent and analyzed his division, pointing out to Maurício Shogun as the favorite for the duel with Rashad Evans.



TATAME:How are the trainings for your fight on UFC 117 going?



SILVA:The training is good, it’s being very productive, the guys are committed and the expectations are high… The last time I fought was seven month ago, right? It’s time, I’m ready. He’s a good wrestler, a good banger, has a good boxing, but my strategy is settled.



TATAME:You had an injury on your fight with Rashad Evans. Is your recovery done? Are you going to be 100% for this fight?



SILVA:My recovery was good. I found out I had three hernias and it disturbed me a bit because I couldn’t get back to my trainings, I had to stop and take care of myself, but I’m fine now. I did physiotherapy every single day and it became a routine thing for me, but my back is good, I’m training hard, so the expectations are high. I’ll get back at my best.



TATAME:Thiago Pitbull, your team partner, will fight on the same night as you and will face Jon Fitch. How do you think this fight will end like?



SILVAitbull is training hard around here. Every day I see how he is committed to it, do it’ll be a good fight…



TATAME:They confronted each other some years ago. What do you thing will be different this time?



SILVA:I believe that Pitbull, nowadays, has a better ground game, his bang is wonderful… The guy is really good while standing. But I think that Pitbull’s differential is that he’s training his ground game, is sharp, more complete, and has been training a lot of Wrestling, so I believe this fight will be different.



TATAME:You are coming from a loss to Rashad, who will probably be the next challenger for the belt. How do you see yourself on the division currently?



SILVA:I see myself as an athlete with a potential to be developed and that, despite the injury, is working hard to compensate it. I don’t choose my opponents, I fight with whoever they tell me to, but I want to fight the bests. From this fight on, I want to fight the tops again.



TATAME:This fight between Rashad and Shogun will probably happen next year. How do you think it will be like?



SILVA:Rashad has a good block-game. He’s using it in every single fight he does… He did it with me, did it with Rampage and I don’t see him doing it differently against Shogun because Shogun is a great guy standing and on the ground too. I’ve trained with him and I believe Rashad doesn’t have tolls to beat him, unless he brings him to the ground and get stuck there, just like he did with me. If Shogun block his takedowns, he wins, for sure.



TATAME:UFC 117 will have six Brazilian vs. American bouts. What do you think the outcome of this duel will be?



SILVA:Well, I’m a Brazilian, right, man? I’ll cheer for my country. I believe it’ll be an awesome night, many Brazilians will be there together and I hope everybody wins.


http://www.tatame.com/2010/07/18/Thiago-Silva


----------



## Kado (Apr 18, 2010)

Yea Rashad dose not have the tools to beat him. Again spot on with the thread tittle.


> I’ve trained with him and I believe Rashad doesn’t have tolls to beat him, unless he brings him to the ground and get stuck there, just like he did with me--Silva


Will be a good first test for Rua.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Thiago doesn't have the skills to beat any top 5 LHW.


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Thiago doesn't have the skills to beat any top 5 LHW.


I don't think that is true. Rashad has very good wrestling, he is very fast, and he has decent striking to go along with it. He may not be the best fighter in the division, but I think that he could pick off some top fighters.


----------



## Sicilian_Esq (Sep 7, 2008)

Rashad won't be able to LnP his way to the title. 

And he's still gun-shy from Lyoto.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Stylistically we have the guy with arguably the best wrestling in the LHW division going against a guy who is known for having bad takedown defense. Also, Rashad is really good at using the cage to his advantage, while Shogun never really had a chance to train with the cage against a top level wrestler.

Shogun is my favorite fighter behind Rashad, but stylistically he's walking into a massacre.

Thiago Silva will return and look great. I really want him to fight Rampage soon. Thiago is a solid LHW with some of the best power in the division, not to mention he has excellent sweeps and is no slouch anywhere. I see him going on another tear through the division on his way to another title shot.


----------



## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

nice read, i also think shogun is going to be in some serious trouble if he cant stuff rashad, but rashads wrestling is amazing and i dont think any LHW can stop his takedowns...except for maybe A.silva

though shogun is one of the best off his back and rashad seems to have difficulties keeping the fight on the ground, his TDs are awesome but his control still isnt top notch...this will probably be the deciding factor.

on a side note, i hate how brazilians are so biased, i am brazilian but man, we always root for the brazilian guy even if we dont know who he is, MMA still isnt that big here, so most fans just cheer for ''the brazilian dude'' why not root for some1 based on their skill?

also the commentating here is terrible on PPVs, if the brazilian guy starts losing they start saying how the fight sucks and is boring, its ridiculous, and theres just so much crap they dont understand, sometimes i just download the ppv the next day so i can watch it with joe rogan

ok, sorry for off topic, but when he said ''well i am brazilian right?'' just pissed me off........:thumb02:


----------



## Harness (Oct 3, 2009)

How i see the fight going: Rashad will take Shogun down at will, but he will not be able to control at all! Rashad will try and stand and bang with Shogun and realise it isn't a good idea, so he will go back to laying on him. 
Shogun by sub or being too much for Rashad standing! Second round.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Spoken812 said:


> Thiago Silva will return and look great. I really want him to fight Rampage soon. Thiago is a solid LHW with some of the best power in the division, not to mention he has excellent sweeps and is no slouch anywhere. I see him going on another tear through the division on his way to another title shot.


Another title shot? When did he ever have a title shot?

On another tear through the division? Yea a tear through Jardine and cut-able fighters...sure.


----------



## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

Spoken812 said:


> *Stylistically we have the guy with arguably the best wrestling in the LHW division* going against a guy who is known for having bad takedown defense. Also, Rashad is really good at using the cage to his advantage, while Shogun never really had a chance to train with the cage against a top level wrestler.
> 
> Shogun is my favorite fighter behind Rashad, but stylistically he's walking into a massacre.
> 
> Thiago Silva will return and look great. I really want him to fight Rampage soon. Thiago is a solid LHW with some of the best power in the division, not to mention he has excellent sweeps and is no slouch anywhere. I see him going on another tear through the division on his way to another title shot.


Randy, Coleman and Bader would disagree.
Shogun is very slick on the ground and I don't see Rashad controlling him there for one bit when (yes, sadly it'll happen) he gets the takedown.
Also I don't like to use mma math to support my case, but 
you all saw how badly Machida tooled Rashad standing? Then how Machida did against Shogun? Rashad will be in huge trouble standing and unless he rocks Shogun like he did vs. Forrest, I don't see him being able to finish Shogun on the ground.
What is the official word anyway? Rashad is getting the next shot? Or is he fighting Randy for it after Randy beats Toney? I haven't paid much attention...

Anyway, have to disagree with Silva. Rashad does have the tools for it, but it'll require a below average performance by Shogun for those tools to work.


----------



## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

Did anyone else catch this?



> SILVA:I believe that Pitbull, nowadays, has a better ground game, his bang is wonderful.


Sometimes I love a bad translation :laugh:

If Rashad is dumb enough to stand with Rua than Thiago is right. On the ground is where it will be interesting. I hope Rua trains to get back to his feet and/or how to stall the ground game so it gets stood up.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Another title shot? When did he ever have a title shot?
> 
> On another tear through the division? Yea a tear through Jardine and cut-able fighters...sure.


Lol I did say another title shot huh? I meant to a title shot, I think he can make it there.



Diokhan said:


> Randy, Coleman and Bader would disagree.
> Shogun is very slick on the ground and I don't see Rashad controlling him there for one bit when (yes, sadly it'll happen) he gets the takedown.
> Also I don't like to use mma math to support my case, but
> you all saw how badly Machida tooled Rashad standing? Then how Machida did against Shogun? Rashad will be in huge trouble standing and unless he rocks Shogun like he did vs. Forrest, I don't see him being able to finish Shogun on the ground.
> ...


Randy? Coleman? I'm talking best wrestling currently, not of all time. And yes, IMO Rashad has better wrestling than Bader.

Rashad shouldn't have a strategy to keep Shogun down, but to wear him out against the cage. What some people call cage n stall, he needs to push Shogun against the clinch, nullifying his muay thai and putting him somewhere uncomfortable.

Shogun can't submit Rashad, and it's kinda sad seeing how many people think Rashad has any chance of getting submitted. Shogun is great at submission attempts, but he rarely uses them to actually fights, it's not his style. I remember a few omaplata attempts he did where he could have easily cranked the arm and got a win, but he uses it to reverse.

As for the whole Machida beat Rashad standing and Shogun beat Machida standing, MMA math doesn't work here at all. We have 3 distinct striking styles.

Machida is Karate with moderate power.
Shogun is Muay Thai with some very good power.
Rashad is boxing with SOMETIMES amazing power, otherwise he has moderate power as well.

Just because Karate beat boxing and muay thai beat karate, it doesn't automatically mean that muay thai counters boxing. One thing that smart boxers who train in MMA for is kicking specifically. Muay Thai has a lot of strikes that are within range of boxers counters, while Karate tends to stay way outside of that range. Not to mention that Shogun will be afraid of any clinch situation because Rashad will just bulldoze him into the fence.

BTW, Rashad has the next title shot, it's been confirmed.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

ACTAFOOL said:


> also the commentating here is terrible on PPVs, if the brazilian guy starts losing they start saying how the fight sucks and is boring,



lol what? thats awful and hilarious at the same time


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> Lol I did say another title shot huh? I meant to a title shot, I think he can make it there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't it amazing how little credit Rashad gets? He beat Rampage, T. Silva, Griffin, Liddel, Bonnar, and yet still everyone thinks he has no chance. The only time he was hurt in the Rampage fight was when he slammed his head into Rampage's knee and then took a right to the jaw not even a second after. Thiago barely had anything to bring to the table against Rashad and blames his loss on back problems.

I can not wait for this fight and if Thiago ever makes it back up into contender status I will happily watch Rashad beat him again.

Rashad may not have the tools to finish Shogun, but if he plays it smart he can gass him and have Shogun give up. I think Shogun will give up his back again and Rashad will GnP TKO or RNC.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

The505Butcher said:


> Rashad may not have the tools to finish Shogun, but if he plays it smart he can gass him and have Shogun give up. I think Shogun will give up his back again and Rashad will GnP TKO or RNC.


shogun NEVER gives up. he kept coming forward when he was gassed against griffin and coleman. rashad can obviously win but his cardio isn't the best, so i don't really think he can use his wrestling enough in the later rounds to win a decision.


----------



## the ultimate (Mar 5, 2007)

Shogun will have too much power for Rashad to handle. Evans has been hurt in his last two fights and was brutally knocked out against Machida.

If Evans takes him down, Shogun will get back up fairly quickly and attack with kicks, knees and punches.

Shogun will win.


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

You guys are forgetting a lot!

Okay, now maybe if the shogun that fought machida were the one that fought rashad, almost certainly shogun would knock rashad out at some point or hurt him and sub him.

But! It is not going to be the same shogun. Injuries are a bitch, and we've seen what the exact same injury has done to shoguns performances in the past (IE coleman and griffin). I'd say that its going to be a mix of the shogun that fought machida and the shogun that fought coleman/griffin. So because of that it makes it more interesting imo.


----------



## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

The way I see it Rashad will be able to take down Shogun pretty early on, the big question is wether he can keep him there? I personally don't think so... The way I see this is, if it goes to a descision Rashad takes it, any other way Shogun baby!


----------



## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Yes, he does  

I will be rooting for Shogun though.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

It's a seriously tough fight and many are overlooking Rashad.

Shogun has been taken down in every single fight he's been in since coming to the UFC, and Rashad has some really good wrestling, and without a doubt can and will take it to the ground. Can he keep Shogun there? That's really hard to say, but to say he plain out can't, would be ridiculous. Shogun will probably get up a few times, but who says it'll stay standing any longer than 20 seconds for Rashad to drag him back down? Shogun is not known for subbing guys, in fact, he has more submission losses than he has submission victories.

Also, Rashad is very fast and has really good head movement, he doesn't rely on kicks or distance nearly as much as Machida, so most of Shogun's striks will be in Rashad's comfort range. It's a whole different striking battle, style wise.

I honestly cannot say who is going to win, cause it's a very good fight stlye wise for Rashad, and who knows how Shogun is going to look after his injury. However, Shogun is an animal and if he shows up 100%, it'll be a very, very hard fight for Rashad as well.

It's up in the air for me.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

If Shogun is 100 healthy then this fight wont last 3 rounds, thats being generous, i see it ending violently in the second.

Shogun has the best ground game in the UFC lhw division. Rashad has good take downs but poor ground control. I think shogun would welcome rashad to take him down. 

Shogun has two options from his back. He can either sweep rashad working his top notch BJJ and control and land some GNP. Or he can spring right back up to his feet and stand and bang.

The only thing rashad can do here is score points with take downs. He isnt going to threaten rua on the feet and he isnt going to threaten him on the ground, infact, he is the one in danger on the ground. 

He could also use cage n stall as well though, im predicting that to be his strategy. Try and hold rua up against the cage, land the odd pitter patter punch and score points.

Rua has the best cardio in the division also. (Again this is all if rua shows up 100 percent healthy which is a big if). So if he shows up 100 percent, rashads cage n stall tactics wont wear down rua, he keeps on attacking.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

A huge thing people are really forgetting about is cage tactics. Shogun is horribly inexperienced with grappling on the cage, and Rashad is a master of using the cage to his advantage and landing takedowns.

Shogun will be wall walking to stand up, but he will get put down. He'd have to physically push Rashad away from him, and Rashad doesn't let that happen really ever.

It will be a match with plenty of "stalling" against the cage, I guarentee it.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> A huge thing people are really forgetting about is cage tactics. Shogun is horribly inexperienced with grappling on the cage, and Rashad is a master of using the cage to his advantage and landing takedowns.
> 
> Shogun will be wall walking to stand up, but he will get put down. He'd have to physically push Rashad away from him, and Rashad doesn't let that happen really ever.
> 
> It will be a match with plenty of "stalling" against the cage, I guarentee it.


I still am not sold on Shogun's cardio and I do not have faith that after his surgery it will be better. Rashad will have a lot of time to work his top control and standing defence. I see a lot of takedowns and Rashad avoiding submission and reversal attempts. this look like a boring fight to casual fans but I am still going with Shogun gasses in the 4th and Rashad finishes him anyway he wants.


----------



## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

jonnyg4508 said:


> On another tear through the division? Yea a tear through Jardine and cut-able fighters...sure.


hes only lost a fight to machida


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

He lost to Rashad as well. 

But yeah, Thiago is a tough as nails guy and should not be overlooked. At all.


----------



## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

Michael Carson said:


> He lost to Rashad as well.


that wasnt a fight. it was a collegiate wrestling match


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> I still am not sold on Shogun's cardio and I do not have faith that after his surgery it will be better. Rashad will have a lot of time to work his top control and standing defence. I see a lot of takedowns and Rashad avoiding submission and reversal attempts. this look like a boring fight to casual fans but I am still going with Shogun gasses in the 4th and Rashad finishes him anyway he wants.


How can you not be sold on ruas cardio when he has proved in almost all of his fights that his cardio is out standing, (bar two fights in his entire career)? And the fact that Rashad Evans has always had suspect cardio? Are you tripping?


----------



## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

I think a lot of people are overlooking Rashad because they dont like him personally and also dislike his current fighting style. 

With that said I can see Rashad beating shogun by using his wrestling. All he has to do is keep Shogun up against the cage or take him down. Shogun hasnt shown great TD defense and Rashad has good top control, though he hasnt shown any sort of GnP as of late. He can win this fight by controlling Shogun on the ground and using the same gameplan he used vs Rampage on his feet. Hit and get out of range quick. Rashad needs to be in the best shape of his life to beat Shogun. 

Now at the same time good luck trying to do this to Shogun for 5 rounds. 

Rashad's cardio is still in question for a 5 round fight IMO......... and Shogun hasnt ever looked good coming off of knee surgeries.........

This fight is a 60/40 for Shogun IMO........ We still have a lot of questions to be answered....... I'm giving Shogun the edge because he finishes fights while Greg Jackson has ruined a once exciting fighter in Rashad by making him a safe, boring LnP artist. I'd love to see the old Rashad make an appearance vs Shogun but that guy would probably get KO'd quick. So it'll most likely be more of this boring stalling from Rashad. 

I wouldnt be surprised to see Rashad Shogun and Machida trade the belt for the few fights.......... Anderson Silva and Jon Jones will make this division very interesting in the next few years. WAR UFC LHW division!!!!!!


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Spoken812 said:


> Stylistically we have the guy with arguably the best wrestling in the LHW division going against a guy who is known for having bad takedown defense. Also, Rashad is really good at using the cage to his advantage, while Shogun never really had a chance to train with the cage against a top level wrestler.
> 
> Shogun is my favorite fighter behind Rashad, but stylistically he's walking into a massacre.


If there is one thing we learned from his fights with Machida, it's that Shogun can gameplan and will work with anyone to know what his opponent is going to do. For god's sake the guy trained with a legitimate world class karate fighter to train for Machida the second time around. Not to mention Shogun has shown the ability to easily sweep Machida, who imo has better top control than Rashad. Rashad had a difficult time holding Thiago down, he took him down a lot, but Thiago got right back to his feet, I can see Shogun using a sweep to get a submission instead of standing back up, something Thiago didn't have the ability to do.

And Shogun is probably faster than Rashad too. I think this fight hinges on a couple things. First does Shogun come back in the same place he was before he got hurt and does he prep to fight off his back and stuff takedowns. If he doesn't do either of those, Rashad will take a decision. 

But the wild card in all this, is that in Rashad's last three fights he's been rocked and hurt bad four times near the end of the round. In the first against Machida he got saved by the bell and then finished in the second. When Thiago caught him he was saved by Thiago's lack of trying to finish him on the ground and allowing him time to recover before the bell sounded. Then he got hurt by Rampage and we watched the least accurate GnP of all time, imo at least, if one of those had landed we'd be talking Shogun Page II. The point I'm trying to make, is that Rashad will not get to recover against Shogun. Shogun will swarm and finish Rashad before he knows he was rocked the first time. 

Needless to say I think it will be a great fight, a classic Muay Thai v Boxing, BJJ v Wrestling and I'm looking forward to Shogun's come back and hopefully he's in the same form he was in before the surgery.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

The505Butcher said:


> I still am not sold on Shogun's cardio and I do not have faith that after his surgery it will be better. Rashad will have a lot of time to work his top control and standing defence. I see a lot of takedowns and Rashad avoiding submission and reversal attempts. this look like a boring fight to casual fans but I am still going with Shogun gasses in the 4th and Rashad finishes him anyway he wants.


I can't really see Rashad subbing him just because I don't think he'll even try to, which ANNOYS me. He may do it to be surprising, he said he wanted a submission victory way back when, but he doesn't even try for them. Probably because attempting most submissions can cause you to get swept.. thus him being in a spot he doesn't want to be in.

It'd be amazing to see a sub, but a T/KO is more likely to happen.



Life B Ez said:


> If there is one thing we learned from his fights with Machida, it's that Shogun can gameplan and will work with anyone to know what his opponent is going to do. For god's sake the guy trained with a legitimate world class karate fighter to train for Machida the second time around. Not to mention Shogun has shown the ability to easily sweep Machida, who imo has better top control than Rashad. Rashad had a difficult time holding Thiago down, he took him down a lot, but Thiago got right back to his feet, I can see Shogun using a sweep to get a submission instead of standing back up, something Thiago didn't have the ability to do.
> 
> And Shogun is probably faster than Rashad too. I think this fight hinges on a couple things. First does Shogun come back in the same place he was before he got hurt and does he prep to fight off his back and stuff takedowns. If he doesn't do either of those, Rashad will take a decision.
> 
> ...


It's great to gameplan, but experience is the key here. Shogun has 2 huge factors against him; he can't use the ropes because there is a cage, and his takedown defense is kinda bad. You can train sprawls all you want, but your not stopping Rashad's shot. I rank Rashad's shot in the top 3 in all of MMA. He will start from one side of the octagon and rush a guy clear to the other side of the octagon.

Shogun isn't as strong as Rashad, he's not. Rashad was dealing with skyscrapers in the HW division and was still taking them down at will, so I really doubt Shogun can stop his shot.

I think Prime Shogun couldn't even beat Rashad in a UFC match.. but Pride on the other hand...

I'm just sad Shogun won't be 100%.. his knees took a lot of abuse throughout the years.


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Spoken812 said:


> It's great to gameplan, but experience is the key here. Shogun has 2 huge factors against him; he can't use the ropes because there is a cage, and his takedown defense is kinda bad. You can train sprawls all you want, but your not stopping Rashad's shot. I rank Rashad's shot in the top 3 in all of MMA. He will start from one side of the octagon and rush a guy clear to the other side of the octagon.
> 
> Shogun isn't as strong as Rashad, he's not. Rashad was dealing with skyscrapers in the HW division and was still taking them down at will, so I really doubt Shogun can stop his shot.
> 
> ...


I don't think Shogun is stronger at all, I believe he is a lot faster and that will be the key. Rashad was dealing with HW on TUF as a wrestler though, so that's not the best example of his strength imo. More impressive to me was that he was able to just push Rampage, one of the strongest fighters in MMA around the cage for three rounds. 

If Shogun isn't 100% I won't even hold out hope that he can beat Rashad, he'll get dominated with wrestling from start to finish no doubt. Like my other post said, I would probably back Rashad against a 100% Shogun if it wasn't for Evans seeming to fall asleep at the end of rounds. Shogun has serious power add speed to that and those final minute or thirty seconds that Rashad has been getting caught in could turn brutal quickly.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Life B Ez said:


> I don't think Shogun is stronger at all, I believe he is a lot faster and that will be the key. Rashad was dealing with HW on TUF as a wrestler though, so that's not the best example of his strength imo. More impressive to me was that he was able to just push Rampage, one of the strongest fighters in MMA around the cage for three rounds.
> 
> If Shogun isn't 100% I won't even hold out hope that he can beat Rashad, he'll get dominated with wrestling from start to finish no doubt. Like my other post said, I would probably back Rashad against a 100% Shogun if it wasn't for Evans seeming to fall asleep at the end of rounds. Shogun has serious power add speed to that and those final minute or thirty seconds that Rashad has been getting caught in could turn brutal quickly.


I'll admit to that. If he gets rocked in this fight, the odds of him surviving Shogun blasting him is not very good. When Shogun smells blood it's a wrap on that fighter.


----------



## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

..Well first off, it sucks that Thiago is not on the main card. He got robbed. Rashad has proven many wrong over & over again. He executes his gameplan well, finds a way to win and has a good chin. Evans for sure would want to close the distance and shoot in, get the takedown. Rashad can box but his stand-up is no match for Shogun's vicious, precision muay thai. I'm sure Evans can take Shogun down and could possibly win via ground n' pound. Evans could also out point Shogun with takedowns retaining octagon control and get a decision. Shogun has good Jiu Jitsu and Rashad could get submitted as well. Shogun has nasty leglocks. If Shogun beat Machida convincingly at his own game and Rashad got smoked by Lyoto, on the feet would be a disaster. If Rashad plays the stand-up game with Shogun, he'd get picked to pieces and KO'd. I think it would be an awesome fight...:thumbsup:


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> How can you not be sold on ruas cardio when he has proved in almost all of his fights that his cardio is out standing, (bar two fights in his entire career)? And the fact that Rashad Evans has always had suspect cardio? *Are you tripping*?


Yes but that is beside the point.


Rua gassed fairly quickly in the Griffin and Coleman fights. I think it was a blessing he won the coleman fight. Beating Liddel when Rua beat him really does not say that much.

Then Rua fought someone who plays into his game. Rua is a striker and thought he was winning that first fight which gives anyone that little extra to keep pushing and then he got a first round victory over Lyoto in the next fight. 

I think as long as Rashad can keep out of trouble for the first two and a half rounds he is home free. Rua will not like being in a place where he is losing which is where Rashad will put him. Rashad is fast and switches from striking to shooting for the takedown extremely quickly. He is a lot smarter now after his loss to Lyoto and will not try to stand and trade with Rua.

I think a lot of people are counting Rashad out of this fight extremely early. I don't understand it either because he keeps proving himself over and over.


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

The505Butcher said:


> Yes but that is beside the point.
> 
> 
> Rua gassed fairly quickly in the Griffin and Coleman fights. I think it was a blessing he won the coleman fight. Beating Liddel when Rua beat him really does not say that much.
> ...


You're missing the point on Rua cardio....He never had problems in Pride. When he fought Griffin and Coleman he was coming off serious knee surgeries which has been said. The whole reason people are concerned about this surgery. Watch any Shogun fight pre-UFC before you talk about his cardio. The pace he kept up before he had surgery was just insane.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

The505Butcher said:


> Yes but that is beside the point.
> 
> 
> Rua gassed fairly quickly in the Griffin and Coleman fights. I think it was a blessing he won the coleman fight. Beating Liddel when Rua beat him really does not say that much.
> ...


I'm not counting rashad out, but this is ridiculous. shogun has always had some of the best cardio. except coming off of injurys like in the coleman and griffin fights while rashad has always had problems with cardio. but of course shogun could have problems with cardio again because he is coming of another injury but not as bad as the last two times.

and you're trying to discredit shoguns wins. lets see here rashad beat rampage who was coming in after a year layoff. tito got a point deducted that earned rashad a lucky draw. barely got by bisping, beat silva who had close to zero wrestling and a back injury. there was rumors that thiago was hurt going into the fight and of course it was confirmed a few months after it. also some people don't know that rashad and silva were supposed to fight at UFC 84 or 83? but silva withdrew because....can you guess what? thats right a back injury and shogun withdrew from the fight against liddell at UFC 85 which than set up rashad vs liddell but liddell pulled a hamstring which led to them fighting at UFC 88.

but the point is, is that you can make an argument for just about everybodys win. but thats just stupid.

I also think that people from both sides are thinking this could be a easy win for both as shogun doesn't have the best TDD while rashad doesn't have the best top game and control but that says to me that this could be a great back and forth fight that (i know it's a cliche but had to say it) will be a battle of attrition.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Just gonna say this.. Rashad has excellent cardio.

Getting rocked will slow you down, but he doesn't really get tired. Ever notice that whenever he looks gassed he ate a big shot not that long before?

Believe it or not, Rashad has some of the best cardio in the division. Look at his fight with Griffin, in the 3rd round he looked as fresh as he did in the first.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Life B Ez said:


> You're missing the point on Rua cardio....He never had problems in Pride. When he fought Griffin and Coleman he was coming off serious knee surgeries which has been said. The whole reason people are concerned about this surgery. Watch any Shogun fight pre-UFC before you talk about his cardio. The pace he kept up before he had surgery was just insane.





guy incognito said:


> I'm not counting rashad out, but this is ridiculous. shogun has always had some of the best cardio. except coming off of injurys like in the coleman and griffin fights while rashad has always had problems with cardio. but of course shogun could have problems with cardio again because he is coming of another injury but not as bad as the last two times.
> 
> and you're trying to discredit shoguns wins. lets see here rashad beat rampage who was coming in after a year layoff. tito got a point deducted that earned rashad a lucky draw. barely got by bisping, beat silva who had close to zero wrestling and a back injury. there was rumors that thiago was hurt going into the fight and of course it was confirmed a few months after it. also some people don't know that rashad and silva were supposed to fight at UFC 84 or 83? but silva withdrew because....can you guess what? thats right a back injury and shogun withdrew from the fight against liddell at UFC 85 which than set up rashad vs liddell but liddell pulled a hamstring which led to them fighting at UFC 88.
> 
> ...


I have watched all of Rua's fights in pride. He was great back then. But since then He gassed twice and then had quick KOs. I was never taking away from his wins I am saying I am not sold on his cardio. Wow you guys get butt hurt fast. You guys are saying he had great cardio but after his knee surgeries it was not that great... so when we are talking about a fight between Shogun and Rashad when Shogun returns after a similar knee injury... how does this not apply? So far when he is grappled with for long periods of time in the UFC he gasses... what do you think Rashad is going to do?

I think it is going to be a great fight until Shogun gasses. Shogun has great skill and extremely well rounded. I just think that Rashad is the one to beat him.(aside from jones that is.)


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Spoken812 said:


> Just gonna say this.. Rashad has excellent cardio.
> 
> Getting rocked will slow you down, but he doesn't really get tired. Ever notice that whenever he looks gassed he ate a big shot not that long before?
> 
> Believe it or not, Rashad has some of the best cardio in the division. Look at his fight with Griffin, in the 3rd round he looked as fresh as he did in the first.


nah no way he was visibly tired before rampage or thiago rocked him and in the tito fight they were both tired in the third rd. all are fights where he used his wrestling.

i don't know what it is but most wrestlers these days don't have the cardio like last gens. jones gets tired midway through the second aswell as bader.


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Life B Ez said:


> You're missing the point on Rua cardio....He never had problems in Pride. When he fought Griffin and Coleman he was coming off serious knee surgeries which has been said. The whole reason people are concerned about this surgery. Watch any Shogun fight pre-UFC before you talk about his cardio. The pace he kept up before he had surgery was just insane.


Also remember that Shogun will be coming into this fight after surgery as well.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> I have watched all of Rua's fights in pride. He was great back then. But since then He gassed twice and then had quick KOs. I was never taking away from his wins I am saying I am not sold on his cardio. Wow you guys get butt hurt fast. You guys are saying he had great cardio but after his knee surgeries it was not that great... so when we are talking about a fight between Shogun and Rashad when Shogun returns after a similar knee injury... how does this not apply? So far when he is grappled with for long periods of time in the UFC he gasses... what do you think Rashad is going to do?
> 
> I think it is going to be a great fight until Shogun gasses. Shogun has great skill and extremely well rounded. I just think that Rashad is the one to beat him.(aside from jones that is.)


Argh, this post hurts my brain. You have watched all of shoguns pride fights or so you claim and yet you say you are not sold on his cardio? 

Out of 23 career fights, his cardio lookd dodgy in 2 fights, 2 out of 23 and that was because he was recovering from an injury and clearly wasnt his usual self.

I dont know how any one can doubt ruas cardio when he is 100 percent healthy. He is one of the most aggressive, fast paced fighters in the division and can keep that pace for as long as he wants. Coleman and griffin are irrelevant.


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

HitOrGetHit said:


> Also remember that Shogun will be coming into this fight after surgery as well.


I know that, I was just disputing that Shogun has had suspect cardio.



The505Butcher said:


> I have watched all of Rua's fights in pride. He was great back then. But since then He gassed twice and then had quick KOs. I was never taking away from his wins I am saying I am not sold on his cardio. Wow you guys get butt hurt fast. You guys are saying he had great cardio but after his knee surgeries it was not that great... so when we are talking about a fight between Shogun and Rashad when Shogun returns after a similar knee injury... how does this not apply? So far when he is grappled with for long periods of time in the UFC he gasses... what do you think Rashad is going to do?
> 
> I think it is going to be a great fight until Shogun gasses. Shogun has great skill and extremely well rounded. I just think that Rashad is the one to beat him.(aside from jones that is.)


I have a fight for you to watch, it was at UFC 104, it was longer than any fight Rashad has ever had and while there was no ground game, standing and trading is tiring as well. Fighting at a high level like that is exhausting even if you're circling for 25 minutes. Not to mention, resting heartbeat of something like 42, that's int he range of Olympic marathon runners and olympic swimmers. So I'm going with he was in great shape without injuries. I will now repeat what I've been saying. None of that matters unless he fully recovers from this surgery.


----------



## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Rashad couldn't take Thiago down.

Why would Shogun be any different...


----------



## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

You know, a year & half ago everyone was saying that Shogun was a perfect victim for Chuck Liddell since his wild wide open attacking style would leave him vulnerable to getting countered and knocked out. That didn't happen. Then a year ago almost everyone said that despite the improvements shown in the Liddell fight, Shogun was going to get completely taken apart by Machida. That didn't happen either. Then half a year ago most people said that Machida would make the adjustments, come out with an improved gameplan and KO Shogun. I think you know how that ended up going.

The only question as far as I'm concerned is what kind of shape Shogun is in when he finally steps into the octagon. His skills were still there even after long layoffs from surgery, in the first round of the Coleman fight he's still attacking hard, working the knees & leg kicks, using sweeps to reverse position or get up when Coleman got him down, and setting a pretty hard pace. Shogun's not going to forget how to fight and I don't see ring rust being much of an issue. If he comes back in shape there's a pretty good chance Rashad will be left seeing stars.

As for how the fight may play out, the key here is that Shogun always keeps attacking, he's not going to stop throwing kicks or get scared just because Rashad takes him down a few times. Once again, watch the Coleman fight, Coleman must've had him down a dozen times but Shogun isn't phased, he keeps working the kicks & knees, hitting the punches when he can and eventually he got the KO. He never gets worried about the takedown, he keeps fighting his fight and doesn't get scared and play into his opponent's gameplan.

Rashad will have to keep up the takedowns for the full 5 rounds, that's a lot of time for Shogun to get a shot in and if he gets Rashad wobbled or knocked down it's almost guaranteed to be game over. Look at Chuck & Machida, Shogun was hitting them with hard accurate shots almost before they even hit the ground, as soon as their heads hit the canvas they were getting drilled with follow up hits, 5 seconds from the knockdown punch to the fight being over.


----------



## Hellboy (Mar 15, 2008)

Shogun is quicker, has better standup and can fight off his back. What I'm getting at is that Rashad is fucked.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Life B Ez said:


> I know that, I was just disputing that Shogun has had suspect cardio.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a fight for you to watch, it was at UFC 104, it was longer than any fight Rashad has ever had and while there was no ground game, standing and trading is tiring as well. Fighting at a high level like that is exhausting even if you're circling for 25 minutes. Not to mention, resting heartbeat of something like 42, that's int he range of Olympic marathon runners and olympic swimmers. So I'm going with he was in great shape without injuries. I will now repeat what I've been saying. None of that matters unless he fully recovers from this surgery.


I sure do hope Shogun can get a full camp in and he comes in at least near 100%. It would be a shame if the Forrest Griffin Shogun showed up.

Anyways, coming from someone who trains, I can tell you that standing is a very tiring part of fighting, but rolling around on the ground is insanely tiring. I can't roll on the ground for 2 minutes without huffing and puffing, and I have no idea why the ground game is more tiring either, it just is.



Trix said:


> Rashad couldn't take Thiago down.
> 
> Why would Shogun be any different...


Wha.. what fight were you watching? Rashad was taking Thiago down at will.


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Spoken812 said:


> I sure do hope Shogun can get a full camp in and he comes in at least near 100%. It would be a shame if the Forrest Griffin Shogun showed up.
> 
> Anyways, coming from someone who trains, I can tell you that standing is a very tiring part of fighting, but rolling around on the ground is insanely tiring. I can't roll on the ground for 2 minutes without huffing and puffing, and I have no idea why the ground game is more tiring either, it just is.


That's odd, I've always found the striking aspect more tiring to me. I think it's the mental stress for me because I only recently started Muay Thai but I've doing BJJ and Judo since I was a kid as well as wrestling in high school. Maybe I'm just more relaxed on the ground where on my feet my brain is constantly going try to anticipate the next strike coming. Both parts are rough on the body and mind either way though. I only said that because most people say 104 proved nothing about Shogun's cardio because it was a striking match.


----------



## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

Shogun should be in great shape as he did change his training style after the Forrest fight. It's a lot more like what Rashad went through for the Rampage fight and if we all remember the story on his heart rate when he fought Machida......... I dont see why he would change any of that unless he just isnt physically capable of doing so. 

Rashad gassed pretty bad vs Thiago and his cardio is still suspect IMO. I will say this though he was in the best shape of his life for Rampage. 

I think this fight will depend on the pace of the fight. A faster pace benefits Shogun but I dont think it will be a fast paced fight as Rashad will be looking to hold, clinch and avoid any fighting on his feet and bore the shit outta me.

Rashad can win this fight but the more and more I think about it I'm thinking Shogun can answer anything Rashad throws his way........


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Life B Ez said:


> That's odd, I've always found the striking aspect more tiring to me. I think it's the mental stress for me because I only recently started Muay Thai but I've doing BJJ and Judo since I was a kid as well as wrestling in high school. Maybe I'm just more relaxed on the ground where on my feet my brain is constantly going try to anticipate the next strike coming. Both parts are rough on the body and mind either way though. I only said that because most people say 104 proved nothing about Shogun's cardio because it was a striking match.


Ahh, I started the exact opposite way. I started with boxing and went into Muay thai, then started learning Judo and am starting BJJ.

That totally makes sense fam, considering I'm very comfortable on my feet and my moves tend to flow, where as on the ground I'm thinking constantly and straining to position myself right.

Either way, no one should question Shogun's cardio. If he looks slow, it's because of the injury.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> Argh, this post hurts my brain. You have watched all of shoguns pride fights or so you claim and yet you say you are not sold on his cardio?
> 
> Out of 23 career fights, his cardio lookd dodgy in 2 fights, 2 out of 23 and that was because he was recovering from an injury and clearly wasnt his usual self.
> 
> I dont know how any one can doubt ruas cardio when he is 100 percent healthy. He is one of the most aggressive, fast paced fighters in the division and can keep that pace for as long as he wants. Coleman and griffin are irrelevant.


Wow... you really need to calm down Mkceever. I have watched all of his fights. He gassed hard on the Forrest and Coleman fights when he was actually grappled with. He tore through Liddle before we could see anything from his cardio. He has a stand up fight with Lyoto which has already been discussed with Spoken and Life. Shogun is more durable on the feet because he like it there better. In a standup only fight with Lyoto that he was not worried about Lyoto's power he was able to go 5 rounds. In the next fight he was not worried about Lyoto again and finished it in the first round. 

Shogun had amazing cardio in Pride as I have said in previous posts. I have watched all his fights even if you are a tard and don't believe me. But since he gassed I am not sold on his cardio when he is grappled with for long periods of time. and again as I have already said, what do you think Rashad is going to do?

He had problems with cardio right after a knee surgery... what is he coming off of when he fights Rashad?

Shogun is an awesome fighter but so is Rashad and everyone is counting Rashad out too early because no one likes him.


----------



## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

The505Butcher: You are very annoying with all that "everybody counting out rashad too early" in the end of your posts.

Almost everybody said, that he has some chance to grind the victory via Silva/Page fight. Because Rua possibly could have bad cardio after injury. 

Someone bring mma math. Dont forget that they had some same opponents.

Evans VS Forrest - Rashad losing fight until TKO
Liddell - Rashad losing fight until KO
Rampage - Rashad grinded victory and almost got KOed
Machida - Rashad was outclassed badly

Rua VS Forrest - Shogun winning(IMHO) until got cought at the very end
Liddell - Shogun outclassed Chuck
Rampage - Shogun destroyed Jackson badly
Machida - Shogun "won" the first and Shogun smashed Lyoto in the second


When you look at the list you clearly see that Rua is more dominant fighter than Rashad. 

You can like Rashad all you want but He is bad underdog in this fight and has slight change that he will grind unimpressive victory (Greg Jacksoning)

My only worries are about Shoguns recovery after injury.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Atilak said:


> The505Butcher: You are very annoying with all that "everybody counting out rashad too early" in the end of your posts.
> 
> Almost everybody said, that he has some chance to grind the victory via Silva/Page fight. Because Rua possibly could have bad cardio after injury.
> 
> ...


I can give you 1 million reasons on why this post is so wrong, but I'll settle for:

Styles make fights.

Btw, read some of my other posts in this thread.


----------



## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> I can give you 1 million reasons on why this post is so wrong, but I'll settle for:
> 
> Styles make fights.
> 
> Btw, read some of my other posts in this thread.


I did  

You dont agree with my views on the fight with same opponent? How exactly?

"Styles make fights." There is only one skill that Rashad has better than Rua and its takedowns. 

Please tell me, what can Rashad do other than grind the W? By pushing on fence or taking Rua down.

BTW I bring the list of fight for making things clear. People comparing only Machida fight in this thread. They had 4 same opponents.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Atilak said:


> I did
> 
> You dont agree with my views on the fight with same opponent? How exactly?
> 
> ...


My favourite quote was some thing along the lines of; Machida has a karate striking style and Rua has Mu Thai. Just because machidas karate style was able to shut down rashad doesnt mean Ruas devastating mu thai wont be able to do the same. lol

It doesnt work like that. Shogun Rua is the superior striker to Machida. He is quicker than machida, more aggressive and packs much more power. If rashad was getting beaten to the punch by Machida, what on earth could rua do to him in the striking department?

The only thing rashad has going for him here is take downs, you are right.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

I'm saying it's silly to compare striking styles. A beats B and B beats C, so that automatically means A beats C?

Machida has great takedown defense, Shogun doesn't. Shogun's biggest weakness is Rashad's biggest strength.

Comparing past opponents is kinda silly because it's been proven that MMA math doesn't work, because it just doesn't.

You can use MMA math to prove that Kimbo is better than fedor.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Atilak said:


> The505Butcher: You are very annoying with all that "everybody counting out rashad too early" in the end of your posts.
> 
> Almost everybody said, that he has some chance to grind the victory via Silva/Page fight. Because Rua possibly could have bad cardio after injury.
> 
> ...





Mckeever said:


> My favourite quote was some thing along the lines of; Machida has a karate striking style and Rua has Mu Thai. Just because machidas karate style was able to shut down rashad doesnt mean Ruas devastating mu thai wont be able to do the same. lol
> 
> It doesnt work like that. Shogun Rua is the superior striker to Machida. He is quicker than machida, more aggressive and packs much more power. If rashad was getting beaten to the punch by Machida, what on earth could rua do to him in the striking department?
> 
> The only thing rashad has going for him here is take downs, you are right.


Awesome! I was waiting for someone to bring MMA math into this thread! Lets see that means that JDS can beat Fedor and Rua can be the HW champion of Strikeforce Forrest should be the LHW champion right now, or should anderson? and for that matter how about the asian guy who submitted Anderson? He should be the LHW and MW belt holder in the UFC not right? and Okami clearly has a win over Anderson so he should be champ too!
And since Forrest beat Rua on the round and Rashad beat Forrest on the ground that clearly means that Rashad has a far better ground game!

I always love when people bring MMA math into things.:sarcastic12:

Liddel was not beating Rashad he was moving forward all the time like Liddel does and Rashad was countering. He underestimated Rashad's striking as a lot of people do and payed for it. Forrest was losing the fight and then got beat where Rashad wanted to win. Rampage had nothing to bring to the table in that fight and has some of the best TD deffence in the game and he still got taken bown by Rashad three times. The only reason Rashad was even hurt was because he accidentaly threw his head into Rampage's knee and then ate a strong right by Rampage right after that. Rashad got up extremely easily even while rocked and the reason Rampage could do jack was because he knew Rashad was looking for him to move in and Rashad would go for the counter TD.

Machida has a style that works very well to counter boxing which is Rashad's main striking style. He leaves his head far back and Rashad is not good and timing Machida coming in. Where is anyone saying Rashad will get the better of Rua striking anyways? Rua should watch out for Rashad's explosive power because Rashad has a lot of it but Rashad is going to win this fight by wearing Rua down and GnPing. He has the slight chance of KOing him on the feet like Liddel but I would not say it is going to happen.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

The505Butcher said:


> Awesome! I was waiting for someone to bring MMA math into this thread! Lets see that means that JDS can beat Fedor and Rua can be the HW champion of Strikeforce Forrest should be the LHW champion right now, or should anderson? and for that matter how about the asian guy who submitted Anderson? He should be the LHW and MW belt holder in the UFC not right? and Okami clearly has a win over Anderson so he should be champ too!
> And since Forrest beat Rua on the round and Rashad beat Forrest on the ground that clearly means that Rashad has a far better ground game!
> 
> I always love when people bring MMA math into things.:sarcastic12:
> ...


*claps my hands*


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> *claps my hands*


Ugh! It upsets me so much. The one time Rashad lost was when he was trying to fight a style that counters his style perfectly against an undefeated guy who was moaking fools of everyone standing and he tried to fight Machida's style where Machida is best at and not do what he is best at and payed for it. That was the most upsetting fight I have ever seen and now everyone thinks Rashad is a bad fighter. I can not wait till Rashad grinds out Rua and everyone will go back to saying well Machida will tool Rashad then. After that we will get Lil Nog working Rashad. Then Thiago. Next it will be Anderson!

Why is Rashad hated so much?


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> Ugh! It upsets me so much. The one time Rashad lost was when he was trying to fight a style that counters his style perfectly against an undefeated guy who was moaking fools of everyone standing and he tried to fight Machida's style where Machida is best at and not do what he is best at and payed for it. That was the most upsetting fight I have ever seen and now everyone thinks Rashad is a bad fighter. I can not wait till Rashad grinds out Rua and everyone will go back to saying well Machida will tool Rashad then. After that we will get Lil Nog working Rashad. Then Thiago. Next it will be Anderson!
> 
> Why is Rashad hated so much?


Did you really ask why? Can you honestly not work it out yourself? I could give a million reasons as to why, i'll break it down to just a few though.

His cockyness, show boating ring antics - Why does he do it? I mean, honestly why?! Not only does he look like an utter retard when hes doing it but he really hasnt earned the right to showboat in the octagon. Guys like Muhammed Ali, Anderson Silva, Roy Jones they have earned the right to do so, given how amazing their striking is. Rashad is a medicore striker and certainly shouldnt be showboating and dropping his hands infront of any one in the octagon.

Stupid head movement. I suppose you could relate it to the above really. Rashad does not have good head movement, period. It looks silly, it is ineffective and just plain annoying.

Recently hes become a very boring fighter. Very boring. Using his take downs and cage and stall tactics in all of his recent fights and i expect the same kind of style in all of his future fights. Trying to out point his opponents wit take downs and control against the cage without using GNP, working for subs and having poor ground control.

In response to your other posts, i wasnt trying to use mma math. I was just pointing out the fact that rua is a better striker than Machida. Hes a better striker than any one rashad has previously fought and doesnt stand much of a chance on the feet.

I said it before but i'll say it again. Rashad has take downs going for him in this fight and thats all.

Please, please rua, show up 100 percent healthy and prepared and destroy him within the first 2 rounds.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> Did you really ask why? Can you honestly not work it out yourself? I could give a million reasons as to why, i'll break it down to just a few though.
> 
> His cockyness, show boating ring antics - Why does he do it? I mean, honestly why?! Not only does he look like an utter retard when hes doing it but he really hasnt earned the right to showboat in the octagon. Guys like Muhammed Ali, Anderson Silva, Roy Jones they have earned the right to do so, given how amazing their striking is. Rashad is a medicore striker and certainly shouldnt be showboating and dropping his hands infront of any one in the octagon.
> 
> ...


Has he dropped his hands like that in his last two fights and showboated? Anderson drops his hands and moves his head around and everyone thinks it is amazing. Pat barry did it and everyone likes him? a lot of fighters do that. and yet that is the reason they don't like Rashad?:sarcastic12:

Couture does what? Out points his opponents by pushing them against the cage and takeing them down. Hendo does what? Out points his opponents by taking them down and punching them. With the occasional standing KO. GSP does what? Fitch does what? Need I continue?

I hope Rua comes in 100% healthy but it won't matter either way. If Rua shows up and beat Rashad then he will have "learned how to fix his cardio issues!", if he gets worked by Rashad "he just was not the same after the surgery!"

Rashad has TDs, speed, strength, and unpredictable explosive punch, and IMO cardio going for him.

oh and the MMA math was the other guy and the bit about Rua's striking being far better was to you. I know Rua has better striking. In none of my posts do I think Rashad should stand and trade with RUa. I have always thought that the way to beat Rua is to grapple with him and Rashad is the best one at 205 to do that.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> Has he dropped his hands like that in his last two fights and showboated? * Anderson drops his hands and moves his head around and everyone thinks it is amazing. Pat barry did it and everyone likes him? a lot of fighters do that. and yet that is the reason they don't like Rashad?:sarcastic12:*
> 
> Couture does what? Out points his opponents by pushing them against the cage and takeing them down. Hendo does what? Out points his opponents by taking them down and punching them. With the occasional standing KO. GSP does what? Fitch does what? Need I continue?
> 
> ...


Stopped reading right here. Please actually read my post before making a reply.


----------



## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

Why can't anyone see that Shogun does not NEED takedown defense because he rarely USES takedown defense because when anyone TRIES to take him down he generally LETS it happen and generally ends up in an ADVANTAGEOUS position doing MORE damage than his opponent...?

So if it's agreed that takedown offense is an advantage for Rashad in this fight, well... it's really not an advantage. It just means he's gonna be taking the fight to the ground all night where Shogun is more dangerous than him, on top or bottom.


----------



## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Rashad couldn't go 3 rounds with Thiago Silva or Rampage purely controlling them without being caught, how exactly is he going to do it against Shogun? He got sloppy in the 3rd against Silva and got badly rocked, but Thiago didn't have the gas to finish him; and if Rashad was fighting the Rampage of 2 years ago, without the ring rust, Rampage would have finished him too. Rashad is going to give Shogun at least 1 opportunity to finish the fight within 5 rounds, and Shogun will not let Rashad off. When Shogun has you in trouble, he gets the job done and finishes you off, ask Machida. 

Shogun might not have the best TDD, but he has very impressive sweeps, top class jiu jitsu and has never been dominated and held down on the ground for any substantial length of time. Rashad will not be able to grind him to a decision victory. If this was GSP fighting at 205 then we could see a loss for Shogun, as GSP has proven time and tmie again that he is capable of holding guys down and dominating them for 5 rounds but Rashad doesn't have the top control or patience to grind out a victory and will get caught at least once within 5 rounds. Shogun by TKO in the 3rd or 4th. How does Rashad win this fight? He's not got the game to hold Shogun down for 5 rounds, he won't knock him out and although his Jiu Jitsu is good, he is not submitting Shogun. How does he win? His only hope is that Shogun turns up poorly conditioned and still suffering with some pain after his surgery, but considering Shogun's surgery has been reported as a minor one, I'd say that's unlikely.


----------



## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Question: what happens if Shogun decides to go kick the crap out of Rashad's legs, sure Evans will get takedowns, but what happens in round 4 or 5 after he's been hit with a dozen of Shogun's leg kicks? His speed will be gone and his shot will be gone, which means takedowns will be a lot harder to come by. If Shogun takes his legs out, Rashad will be forced to stand with him and that will end badly for Evans.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Rashad catches kicks, so I doubt Shogun will be throwing leg kicks.

I dunno 505, people aren't listening to reason here. It's kinda pointless. No one likes to accept the fact that Rashad is a master at working the cage, something Shogun has NEVER had to deal with in his entire career. People think this fight will be in the middle of the octagon? Nooooooooooooooooooooooo! Rashad will, like he does to everyone, bulldoze Shogun to the cage and keep him there, spamming takedowns and letting him standing and putting his back against the cage.

Striking really won't be a factor much in this fight unless Rashad wants to stand with him, which I pray he doesn't do.

Shogun won't submit Rashad, he has 1 submission victory under his belt and he had a insanely hard time pulling that one off.

This is a close fight sure, but if Rashad starts winning, it's kinda game over for Shogun.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> *Rashad catches kicks, so I doubt Shogun will be throwing leg kicks.*
> 
> I dunno 505, people aren't listening to reason here. It's kinda pointless. No one likes to accept the fact that Rashad is a master at working the cage, something Shogun has NEVER had to deal with in his entire career. People think this fight will be in the middle of the octagon? Nooooooooooooooooooooooo! Rashad will, like he does to everyone, bulldoze Shogun to the cage and keep him there, spamming takedowns and letting him standing and putting his back against the cage.
> 
> ...


lmao. That is actually sig worthy.


----------



## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> Rashad catches kicks, so I doubt Shogun will be throwing leg kicks.


Forrest Griffin was throwing leg kicks at him, and landing them. If Forrest could hit him, so can Shogun, and Shogun's kicks will hurt a hell of a lot more. Plus as I mentioned earlier, Shogun does not care, watch the Coleman fight, must've been taken down a dozen times but he still threw the kicks.



> No one likes to accept the fact that Rashad is a master at working the cage, something Shogun has NEVER had to deal with in his entire career.


Wait a minute here, Rashad works the cage decently against Thiago Silva and Rampage, and now you're giving him credit for Randy Couture levels of cage work? He's good, but not a master. And let's not forget that knows how to use the cage as well, he clinched Chuck and Machida on the cage and kneed the crap out of their legs.



> This is a close fight sure, but if Rashad starts winning, it's kinda game over for Shogun.


Based on what? Mark Coleman was winning the 2nd & 3rd round against Shogun, he lost. Overeem was beating up on Shogun for the 1st half of both fights. He lost. Rogerio got a knockdown in the 1st and was taking it to Shogun. He lost too. What gives you the idea that Rashad getting ahead grants him such a good chance of winning?


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> lmao. That is actually sig worthy.


Rashad has fights from.. ya know.. before the liddell fight.



aerius said:


> Forrest Griffin was throwing leg kicks at him, and landing them. If Forrest could hit him, so can Shogun, and Shogun's kicks will hurt a hell of a lot more. Plus as I mentioned earlier, Shogun does not care, watch the Coleman fight, must've been taken down a dozen times but he still threw the kicks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, Rashad is amazing against the cage, although most people call is wall n stall, they don't appreciate it for what it is. Rampage has great takedown defense and is physically very strong, so Rashad couldn't utilize the fence like he wanted, but against Thiago he used it to scoop Thiago and slam him repeatedly.

As for him catching kicks, watch his pasts that aren't so recent, like say Bisping and Salmon and Lambert per se. Also his fights on TUF.

You guys have to realize that MMA math which you guys are using doesn't predict fights. Styles makes fights, which is why I can't use the argument "Forrest beat Shogun and Rashad beat Forrest, so Rashad will beat Shogun" It's as stupid as saying "Shogun beat Machida and Machida beat Rashad, so Shogun will beat Rashad."

Analyze fighters, not fights.


----------



## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> Yes, Rashad is amazing against the cage, although most people call is wall n stall, they don't appreciate it for what it is. Rampage has great takedown defense and is physically very strong, so Rashad couldn't utilize the fence like he wanted, but against Thiago he used it to scoop Thiago and slam him repeatedly.


That's good, not great. Great is when you're like Randy Couture and can clinch Brock freakin' Lesnar against the cage even though he was outweighed by at least 50 pounds. That's what I'd call amazing. Rashad is good, but he ain't that good. 



> As for him catching kicks, watch his pasts that aren't so recent, like say Bisping and Salmon and Lambert per se. Also his fights on TUF.


Fighters who aren't anywhere close to Shogun's level. Their kicks are nowhere near as fast, hard, or accurate as Shogun's. This is like me being able to hit 50mph pitches at the local beer league, just cause I can do this doesn't mean I can hit pitches off a MLB pitcher. If I tried I'd get smoked so hard it wouldn't be funny.


----------



## chilo (May 27, 2007)

Sicilian_Esq said:


> Rashad won't be able to LnP his way to the title.
> 
> And he's still *gun-shy* from Lyoto.


and the two fights after that didn't help cause he almost got K'd in both of them.


----------



## evilappendix (Jan 4, 2007)

Rashad may get in over his head if he clinches up with Shogun in an attempt to run him into the cage. Rashad is very strong with the take downs and bullying his opponent around, but clinch work is a Thai boxers bread and butter. Should be an interesting fight. I gotta go with Hua on this though. He has five rounds to beat up Evans' legs and clean his clock. Rashad on the other hand, will most likely use his take downs and wall n stall to grind out a decision. Attempting to grind out a decision against a guy with as capable an arsenal as Shogun's is dangerous business. Of course, I say that now, but watch Rashad get a ko in the first...:confused03:


----------



## chilo (May 27, 2007)

Spoken812 said:


> Rashad has fights from.. ya know.. before the liddell fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you can analyze fights as well, you just can't use "mma math" cause it just doesn't work.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

aerius said:


> That's good, not great. Great is when you're like Randy Couture and can clinch Brock freakin' Lesnar against the cage even though he was outweighed by at least 50 pounds. That's what I'd call amazing. Rashad is good, but he ain't that good.
> 
> 
> 
> Fighters who aren't anywhere close to Shogun's level. Their kicks are nowhere near as fast, hard, or accurate as Shogun's. This is like me being able to hit 50mph pitches at the local beer league, just cause I can do this doesn't mean I can hit pitches off a MLB pitcher. If I tried I'd get smoked so hard it wouldn't be funny.



Rampage was stopping Hendo's takedowns... and he could not even stop Rashad's TDs and cage clinch... He has great cage control.

You say that Rua was able to handle Coleman's wrestling so he is able to handle Rashad's, yet you say that even though he caught other fighters kicks, does not mean he can handle Rua's... be consistent.

Rashad is the best pure wrestler at 205 and as has been shown time and time again if a fighter is on top most of the fight, they will win the fight. So Rashad can easily win decision.

Rashad has serious power in his punches and is getting more accurate the more he trains. Shogun has to worry about that.

Shogun also IMO has to worry about gassing but no one agrees with me there.


----------



## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

The505Butcher said:


> You say that Rua was able to handle Coleman's wrestling so he is able to handle Rashad's, yet you say that even though he caught other fighters kicks, does not mean he can handle Rua's... be consistent.


I never said that Rua handled Coleman's wrestling, in fact I noted several times that he was taken down something like a dozen times by Coleman. Read my posts again. I said that despite being taken down a dozen times, he still stuck to his gameplan, kept up with his striking and won. The point being made is that fear of being taken down is not going to mess with his fighting or kill his confidence. Rashad needs to take him down and keep him down, the mere threat of a takedown isn't enough to make Shogun gunshy and afraid to strike like it did with Rampage. The same is true of knockdowns.



> Shogun also IMO has to worry about gassing but no one agrees with me there.


You know, in my very first post i this thread I noted that a concern for Shogun was his conditioning. If Shogun shows up in Forrest or Coleman shape, he's in deep trouble, if he shows up in his non-stop Pride shape Rashad's going to be the one at risk of gassing. Now, given past history it's likely that Shogun won't come back in top shape, but we simply will not know until the day of the fight and it's useless to speculate in advance.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

aerius said:


> I never said that Rua handled Coleman's wrestling, in fact I noted several times that he was taken down something like a dozen times by Coleman. Read my posts again. I said that despite being taken down a dozen times, he still stuck to his gameplan, kept up with his striking and won. The point being made is that fear of being taken down is not going to mess with his fighting or kill his confidence. Rashad needs to take him down and keep him down, the mere threat of a takedown isn't enough to make Shogun gunshy and afraid to strike like it did with Rampage. The same is true of knockdowns.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, in my very first post i this thread I noted that a concern for Shogun was his conditioning. If Shogun shows up in Forrest or Coleman shape, he's in deep trouble, if he shows up in his non-stop Pride shape Rashad's going to be the one at risk of gassing. Now, given past history it's likely that Shogun won't come back in top shape, but we simply will not know until the day of the fight and it's useless to speculate in advance.


Yes what I was pointing out tis that Rua might be able to KO Coleman who is an old man who is slow and has terrible striking and terrible head movement, but Rashad grinding on you is extremely tiresome and he is a lot faster and has better striking. Rashad's wrestling might not make Rua gunshy but that is the problem. Rua continues forward all the time looking to hurt his opponent but does not worry about being taken down. I am sure that if Rua were to worry about it he would have great TDD because he is an amazing fighter. 

My point is that Rashad will be able to get out of trouble on the feet whenever he wants to because he is such a great wrestler. If the smart Rashad shows up he will grapple rua all night long and beat the living crap out of Rua all the time.

And you prove my point again. Rua might show up in 100% condition and lose but no one will believe it. They will all say he just was not the same.

At least with Rashad's loss I will admit he was being f*cking retarded beyond belief. So far I think the smart Rashad has shown up and will show up for a while.


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

chilo said:


> and the two fights after that didn't help cause he almost got K'd in both of them.


That's the big wild card for me in this Fight. Rashad has been rocked bad twice, saved by the bell and Thiago lack of trying to pound him out from the guard and Rampage's inability to land any punches when he had him hurt. I've said it since this fight was made, if Shogun wobbles Rashad the fight will be over before Evans even knows he's been hit. He won't get to recover against Shogun. Imo if Shogun comes in out of shape that is his one and only chance to win the fight. If not we'll watch him get GregJacksoned.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Since when was it a bad thing to get rocked and not finished against two of arguably the hardest hitters in the division?

That means you have a bad chin?!

MMA fans have the memory span of a goldfish. Rashad has taken many giant shots (including taking giant shots when he was fighting at heavyweight) and has walked them off.


----------



## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

Giant shots at HW????????



In reality it doesnt take much to be KO'd by a 205 lbs man who knows how to throw a punch. Unless your chin is Granite like Rampage and a few others have. 

Rashad doesnt have a horrible chin, and his recovery time seems to be pretty damn good. Problem for Rashad is that if he gets hurt vs Shogun your gonna hear Goldie say "It's all over!" What does he have like 16 KO's in 21 victories or something like that........ yea I'm not gonna look it up. He finishes hurt fighters. 

The thing is is he gonna hurt Rashad????? I think he can do it. But that doesnt mean he will. And by reading this thread we all know who thinks Rashad will win.


----------



## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

The difference is that Rashad had time to recover from being rocked by Thiago and Rampage. Thiago for whatever reason decided to dick around when he had Evans wobbled instead of closing it out. Rampage tried to pound him on the ground (good job of surviving by Evans btw) and then when Evans got up and was still a bit wobbly, Rampage let him off instead of going in for the kill.

Yes Rashad has a good chin and fast recovery, but as seen in the Machida fight, there's only so much you can do if the guy's all over him right away with accurate strikes. That's the problem if you're fighting against Shogun, he's one of the best finishers around, if he gets someone rocked or knocked down that person is almost certainly toast. Rogerio is the only one I can think of who's survived a Shogun knockdown. Everyone else got stomped, soccer kicked, hammerfisted, or punched to death.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

I 200% agree that if Rashad gets wobbled, he'll more than likely get finished.

Btw, I have the odds to this fight 70/30 in favor of Rashad. It'd be closer to 60/40 if Shogun wasn't injured. And I have it at 50/50 if Shogun was ready for cage tactics, because I've been following his career for a very long time and I can tell you, he's not.


----------



## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

Spoken and Butcher...

You are trying too argue but we basicly saying the same thing.

I said that Shogun could have issue with cardio. Has superior striking and need to rock Rashad once to get the KO.
And you agreed.

I said that Rashads only chance is to grind the W by pushing on cage or takedowns.
You are repeating that this is the thing why Rashad will win.
So you agreed.


Our only difference is that I have better chance for Shogun coz control for 5 round one of the most agressive guy with killer instinct is ******* hard to do.

Btw FFS I said that I bring mma math to make things clear. In first pages ppl talked about it and didnt mention all the fights.

I base my prediction on their styles. 

I can tell you how this fight can go.

1) Shogun rush Rashad and fight will end very quickly - (Shogun/Page style)

2) Shogun will get pushed on the cage or takendown. Between Shogun will try to get as many strikes as possible. This will repeat until Rashad get rocked and fight end or not happen and Rashad will grind W.

There is few more options but they will not likely happen. Pure GNP after getting dominant possition, submitions etc.

Do we agree?
Or you see Rashad winning on points by striking? Or KOing Rua? I just ask.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Rashad can win by KO, he has the power too. Basically, we're agreed. And I'm not arguing actually, Considering I really like both fighters in this fight, and I kinda want both to win, but that's impossible so since I like Rashad more, I'll back him.

Honestly, a lot of people shit on Rashad, and half the time a lot of people say stuff that is highly illogical and makes no sense. Being a huge fan of his, I do tend to get defensive, so if I'm coming across as a angry butthurt fan, I'm sorry  Not my intention.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

No we have similar opinions but disagree on what they mean. We both probably see where the other is coming from but disagree.

I just hate MMA Math because it never works and I usually just give out a whole bunch of crap whenever it is brought up. Spoken is right though because he and I are like the only ones actually supporting Rashad ever since he lost to MAchida. I mean look at how many people voted and supported Rashad going into the Rampage fight. It is sad really. It upsets me a lot so I get fairly upset quickly especially when people get mad at me. Or calling me out on things. Or say things like I don't know what I am talking about.

I do think that Rashad can KO Rua though. A lot of people underestimate Rashad's striking.


----------



## chilo (May 27, 2007)

Spoken812 said:


> *Since when was it a bad thing to get rocked and not finished against two of arguably the hardest hitters in the division?
> 
> That means you have a bad chin?!*
> 
> MMA fans have the memory span of a goldfish. Rashad has taken many giant shots (including taking giant shots when he was fighting at heavyweight) and has walked them off.


and you sir have just gone full retard.

rashad might have taken many giant shots in the past, but since his fight with machida he's never, NEVER, been the same. machida k'd him, thiago rocked him in the last round but couldn't finish and same with rampage. 

from what i seen throught the years watching mma AND boxing, once a fighter has been knocked out, and i mean ktfo, mostly likely they wont have the same chin. they're pleanty of examples to prove it, 2 for instance...

wanderlie silva in mma, and roy jones jr in boxing.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

chilo said:


> and you sir have just gone full retard.
> 
> rashad might have taken many giant shots in the past, but since his fight with machida he's never, NEVER, been the same. machida k'd him, thiago rocked him in the last round but couldn't finish and same with rampage.
> 
> ...


really?

so how do you explain phenomena like Rampage, Akiyama then :confused02:

this rule doesn't exist and isn't true at all!


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

chilo said:


> and you sir have just gone full retard.
> 
> rashad might have taken many giant shots in the past, but since his fight with machida he's never, NEVER, been the same. machida k'd him, thiago rocked him in the last round but couldn't finish and same with rampage.
> 
> ...



Ok, now why couldn't you post without throwing the insult in there? This is the second time in the last couple days I have seen you insulting members. Please stop.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Im confused as to how an mma fan can support a fighter who looks to out point his opponent through take downs and holding them against the cage. Im even more confused as to why they dont understand why people dont like rashad. In which case, read the above then read it again.

Couldnt resist the sig spoken, nothing personal though man.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

chilo said:


> and you sir have just gone full retard.
> 
> rashad might have taken many giant shots in the past, but since his fight with machida he's never, NEVER, been the same. machida k'd him, thiago rocked him in the last round but couldn't finish and same with rampage.
> 
> ...


Insulting a mod? Really? Oh well, I left you a PM, so know your place.



Mckeever said:


> Im confused as to how an mma fan can support a fighter who looks to out point his opponent through take downs and holding them against the cage. Im even more confused as to why they dont understand why people dont like rashad. In which case, read the above then read it again.
> 
> Couldnt resist the sig spoken, nothing personal though man.


As for the sig, I'm totally cool with it. It just means you really have no idea how Rashad fights. Don't worry, after fight night I'm sure you'll take it down :thumb02:

Just watch these fights for information on your new sig: Rashad vs. Forrest, Bisping, Salmon, Lambert, Bonnar, Hoger. And I'm just listing UFC fights.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Heh, I'm really cracking up now, gotta double post. That sig man, can you bold it and make the font bigger? I really want people to see it.

I'm just wondering when has it ever been smart to throw a lot of outside kicks to a wrestler with a great shot? Literally, I want an answer. Clinch is a different story, and I expect plenty of knees (I don't count those as kicks) but seriously... think about it.


----------



## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

chilo said:


> from what i seen throught the years watching mma AND boxing, *once a fighter has been knocked out,* and i mean ktfo, *mostly likely they wont have the same chin.* they're pleanty of examples to prove it, 2 for instance...
> 
> wanderlie silva in mma, and roy jones jr in boxing.


without the insults, this is true, anyone who thinks otherwise should look it up. you can find a lot of evidence to prove it. when guys get ko'd the first time, some shy away or change up the game-plan because they get "rocked" more easily then before. a KO is like a small concussion so it makes sense that in most cases you get one and it happens more easily afterward.

guys like page are the exception, brutal "i thought he died" knees to the head from prime wand and he still came back. anybody else would have spiraled into obscurity with tko loss after tko loss (or just choosing not to stand and trade anymore than they could help it)after something like that.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

I'm not disputing that KO doesn't lessen your chin, but it certainly doesn't make it glass. And some fighters change their fighting style (although Rashad didn't really change, he just went back to normal) some fighters don't change at all (wandy).

Wandy still has a pretty good chin for as much damage as he's taken.


----------



## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

just so you dont get the wrong idea im not saying rashad has a glass chin or anything. (which i could do, seeing as how i hate any fighter that beats rampage.....just kidding......not really) this is thiago trying more to hype up shogun. which i would be careful in saying rashad does not have the tools to beat him. historically bad knees that have required multiple invasive surgeries will not improve TDD.-which is why i think rashad can seriously look to take him down and blanket him, ground and pound-whatever to the win.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Thelegend said:


> just so you dont get the wrong idea im not saying rashad has a glass chin or anything. (which i could do, seeing as how i hate any fighter that beats rampage.....just kidding......not really) this is thiago trying more to hype up shogun. which i would be careful in saying rashad does not have the tools to beat him. historically bad knees that have required multiple invasive surgeries will not improve TDD.-which is why i think rashad can seriously look to take him down and blanket him, ground and pound-whatever to the win.


Oh I got your point on the first post. I agree with you 100%, of course there are rare exceptions of chins (Rampage has a monster chin for instance) but a lot of people assume that Rashad has a glass chin now. I'm more responding to them.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Getting KOed really does mess up your chin in Boxing. In MMA there are numerous examples of guys being fine after. I mean Leben? Rampage? Cabbage? Franklin, Wand, Couture, Bisping, Overeem, Tanner. I mean there are people that show the oppisite too. 

I am just saying that since Rashad is going back to his roots just means that he is smart enough not too brawl it out with elite level strikers. 

Rashad will finish his opponents again soon. He was just up against two fighters who are extremely hard to finish and so he worked his game instead of falling into his opponents.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Heh, 505, did you see Mckeevers sig? Funny stuff man.


----------



## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

In a 25 minute fight... Evans gonna need more than a showboaty overhand-right and cage-humping takedowns to survive Rua.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> Getting KOed really does mess up your chin in Boxing. In MMA there are numerous examples of guys being fine after. I mean Leben? Rampage? Cabbage? Franklin, Wand, Couture, Bisping, Overeem, Tanner. I mean there are people that show the oppisite too.
> 
> I am just saying that since Rashad is going back to his roots just means that he is smart enough not too brawl it out with elite level strikers.
> 
> Rashad will finish his opponents again soon. He was just up against two fighters who are extremely hard to finish and so he worked his game instead of falling into his opponents.


Agree with everything you just said Butcher :thumbsup:

The KO thing also depends on the person a lot and how this person was able to recover after the concussion. There is no rule for this. It's different from fighter to fighter! Some had a harder concussion then the other one and some just can absorb more brain damage then the other.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> Heh, I'm really cracking up now, gotta double post. That sig man, can you bold it and make the font bigger? I really want people to see it.
> 
> I'm just wondering when has it ever been smart to throw a lot of outside kicks to a wrestler with a great shot? Literally, I want an answer. Clinch is a different story, and I expect plenty of knees (I don't count those as kicks) but seriously... think about it.


lol rua doesnt care if he gets take down, he doesnt care who it is hes fighting. Hes going to throw a lot of kicks. Kicking comes first for rua then punching, hes a great kicker. Hes not Bisping or any B/C list fighters rashad has ever fought before. He has some of the most devastating kicks and mu thai in the division. 

Like i said earlier, rua will welcome rashads take downs. Hes more comfortable on the ground than rashad. He can either sweep rashad or spring back to his feet and carry on kicking him. 
If you really think rua is going to be cautious about throwing kicks then you dont know much about shogun rua.


----------



## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Agree with McKeever's point, and it returns me to my unanswered post from last night and my main point from that post...



Danm2501 said:


> Rashad couldn't go 3 rounds with Thiago Silva or Rampage purely controlling them without being caught, how exactly is he going to do it against Shogun? He got sloppy in the 3rd against Silva and got badly rocked, but Thiago didn't have the gas to finish him; and if Rashad was fighting the Rampage of 2 years ago, without the ring rust, Rampage would have finished him too. Rashad is going to give Shogun at least 1 opportunity to finish the fight within 5 rounds, and Shogun will not let Rashad off. When Shogun has you in trouble, he gets the job done and finishes you off, ask Machida.
> 
> Shogun might not have the best TDD, but he has very impressive sweeps, top class jiu jitsu and has never been dominated and held down on the ground for any substantial length of time. Rashad will not be able to grind him to a decision victory. If this was GSP fighting at 205 then we could see a loss for Shogun, as GSP has proven time and tmie again that he is capable of holding guys down and dominating them for 5 rounds but Rashad doesn't have the top control or patience to grind out a victory and will get caught at least once within 5 rounds. Shogun by TKO in the 3rd or 4th. How does Rashad win this fight? He's not got the game to hold Shogun down for 5 rounds, he won't knock him out and although his Jiu Jitsu is good, he is not submitting Shogun. How does he win? His only hope is that Shogun turns up poorly conditioned and still suffering with some pain after his surgery, but considering Shogun's surgery has been reported as a minor one, I'd say that's unlikely.


.....how exactly does Rashad win?


----------



## astrallite (Mar 14, 2010)

Rashad's only chance is Lay & Pray and try win to the first 3 rounds when the legs are still explosive, then just survive for the final 2 rounds.

Typical Tito Ortiz strategy.

Shogun is the best striker at 205 but his takedown defense is terrible. Machida was a champion for a reason--he has the most balanced skills in LHW division. He was the 2nd best striker in the division and nobody could take him down.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Danm2501 said:


> Agree with McKeever's point, and it returns me to my unanswered post from last night and my main point from that post...
> 
> 
> 
> .....how exactly does Rashad win?


By holding rua against the cage for 5 rounds or by getting a flash KO. Very, very slim chance of either happening. 



astrallite said:


> Rashad's only chance is Lay & Pray and try win to the first 3 rounds when the legs are still explosive, then just survive for the final 2 rounds.
> 
> Typical Tito Ortiz strategy.
> 
> Shogun is the best striker at 205 but his takedown defense is terrible. Machida was a champion for a reason--he has the most balanced skills in LHW division. He was the 2nd best striker in the division and nobody could take him down.


You're forgetting about a major part of mma mate. Ju Jitsu, the ground game. Shogun is a monster on the ground, people for some reason stupidly under rate his ground game when it is the best in the ufc lhw division. Like ive said time and time again, shogun will invite rashad to take him down, hes at home there. He can do what ever he wants.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> Heh, 505, did you see Mckeevers sig? Funny stuff man.





BobbyCooper said:


> Agree with everything you just said Butcher :thumbsup:
> 
> The KO thing also depends on the person a lot and how this person was able to recover after the concussion. There is no rule for this. It's different from fighter to fighter! Some had a harder concussion then the other one and some just can absorb more brain damage then the other.





Mckeever said:


> lol rua doesnt care if he gets take down, he doesnt care who it is hes fighting. Hes going to throw a lot of kicks. Kicking comes first for rua then punching, hes a great kicker. Hes not Bisping or any B/C list fighters rashad has ever fought before. He has some of the most devastating kicks and mu thai in the division.
> 
> Like i said earlier, rua will welcome rashads take downs. Hes more comfortable on the ground than rashad. He can either sweep rashad or spring back to his feet and carry on kicking him.
> If you really think rua is going to be cautious about throwing kicks then you dont know much about shogun rua.





Danm2501 said:


> Agree with McKeever's point, and it returns me to my unanswered post from last night and my main point from that post...
> 
> 
> 
> .....how exactly does Rashad win?


So many posts to respond to! Fun day!:thumb02:

Yeah I saw the Sig. Should be funny when Rua throws Low kicks and Rashad takes him down again and again and again. It is the high fast ones of Lyoto that gave him a tough time.

Yeah Bobby. I mean there are fighters that take a huge KO and then just suck after like Arlivski and Sylvia and Liddel now. But it all depends on the fighter and I really think that people assume Rashad's chin is worse than it is. I think he has been getting Dazed a lot more recently while standing but it is extremely hard to put him away. it took Machidaa like 60 strikes and 2 minutes of the biggest anger assault we have ever seen from MAchida with Rashad dropping his hands and talking to Machida to insult him to actually KO Rashad. I think he has learned from the most upsetting fight I can remember.

Rua is not more compfy on the ground than Rashad Mckeever. He shouldn't be anyways. He will have to finish a fighter that has only been finished once in the retarded occurance that I just wrote about above. Rashad can very easily grapple for the win and wear down Rua. Where Rua should feel ok is on his feet where he has the clear advantagein pretty much everyone's opinion. He will not welcome Rashad's takedowns come fight night.

Damn2501... what do you think Spoken and I have been saying? Just because we do not quote your post ddirectly and you choose to ignore all of our other posts does not mean that it was unanswered. Spoken and I have said. Rashad can very easily grindf out a decision against someone who has arguably the worst TDD in the top 5 of the division. Rashad has an explosive stand up style that anyone should worry about. Rashad has never been submitted. It took one of the best strikers in the division 60 strikes to KO Rashad when Rashad was being retarded and trying to please fans that will never be satisfied. Rashad can GnP tko or KO Rua. That is how Rashad can win. IMO he can also submit Rua when Rua gasses.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

The main problem with everything Mckeever is saying? It's clear he doesn't understand how Rashad fights. With that said, everything that he posts doesn't make much sense.

Wanna know Rashad's perfect strategy for Shogun? I'll say it AGAIN, for the 15 millionth time.

Rashad rushes him to the fence, don't say he's not capable of doing it because he does it to everyone. Rashad keeps Shogun's back against the cage and scoops him up for takedowns, a la Thiago Silva style. Then he lets Rua wall walk. keeping Shogun's back against the cage nullifies most submissions off your back, but it makes it easy to wall walk, which Rashad will allow. He keeps Shogun against the cage, slam him, let him stand, punish him with short shots, rinse and repeat.

What in Shogun's arsenal makes you think he can avoid this? And remember, I've been following Shogun since 2006 and I've seen pretty much all of his fights. People should watch his fight with Babalu in the cage for a little reminder.


----------



## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> Lol I did say another title shot huh? I meant to a title shot, I think he can make it there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that dirty boxing against the cage, and maybe some GnP are Rashad's best options to wear down Shogun. But I don't think Rashad is going to be able to work the dirty boxing anywhere but right up against the cage. If he clinches anywhere else, he'll eat a great many knees from Rua. 

I also think he'll be at a speed disadvantage. Evans looked like he was moving in slow-mo against Machida and Rua is as fast, if not slightly faster than Machida, especially with his hands. Though Evans' slowness against Machida could be associated with Machida's unorthodox fighting nature and the innate difficulty training for him. 

Overall, Evans has a lot better shot than just about anyone else in the LHW division (except Machida of course), however Evans has a very limited range of effectiveness. Machida couldn't keep Rua down for more than a short time, but Evans has a much better wrestling background. Machida was caught by Rua's tracking of his timing and quicksilver hands. 

However in Machida vs Rua 1, Machida was able to limit Rua's effectiveness in the clinch. I think that, in agreement with you, Evans can keep Rua against the cage, and stay active enough to keep the ref from breaking them apart, while evading the Thai clinch, he can grind out a victory. I question the chances of this happening, but its a definite possibility.

Also: Not trying to start an argument with you or anything...but seriously McKeever after all your posts in this thread do you still say you're not a Rua fan? Seriously come on?


----------



## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> What in Shogun's arsenal makes you think he can avoid this?


Knee to the head when Rashad starts to shoot. Stick a knee up and let Rashad run his head into it.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> The main problem with everything Mckeever is saying? It's clear he doesn't understand how Rashad fights. With that said, everything that he posts doesn't make much sense.
> 
> Wanna know Rashad's perfect strategy for Shogun? I'll say it AGAIN, for the 15 millionth time.
> 
> ...


Firstly. I find it very hard to believe you've been following ruas fights since 2006 and state that he isnt going to throw kicks against rashad evans. That is just puzzling.

Rashad is not going to be able to use that strategy for 25 minutes. 5 rounds of rushing rua to the cage, clinching him taking him down, pitter patter punching, rinse and repeat. 

Why wont it work? Firstly, shogun is a great game planner which you guys seem to be ignoring or forgetting. He will know what to expect from rashad, as well as every other fighter out there right now and he and his camp will come up with a strategy to neutralise it. Just like he did with Machid'as puzzling karate technique that no one else in the division could work out, other than rua.

Another reason. The clinch. Rashad is very good at controlling his opponents at the cage, but rua like i said has devastating mu thai. Dont think that rashad is going to clinch rua and control him against the cage for 5 rounds without rua locking in a mu thai clinch and landing some nasty knees and elbows on the break.

Another reason cardio. I find it absolutley ridiculous that butcher is using cardio as rashads strength and shoguns weakness, absolutley ridiculous. Rashad is quite clearly fighter with the more suspect cardio. He passed the test in the rampage fight (just) but his cardio has ALWAYS looked iffy. Ruas cardio (other than two fights) has looked OUTSTANDING, the very best in the division. Hes like a lhw version of diego sanchez in the cardio department. He sets a very high pace and can work at that pace for as long as he wants.

Also what happens when rashad takes rua down? Maybe rua will want to work the take down into his favour and reverse rashad, control him on the ground and beat him up down there. He has the ju jitsu to do so. We shouldnt just assume rua will want to spring back to his feet as soon as he gets take down, he loves the ground game.

I also posted before but didnt get a response. Im interested as to how any one can support a fighter who uses such boring tactics and out pointing their opponents to get the victory. How can you honestly be a fan of a man who goes out there to control some one against a cage, get the odd take down and have no emphasis to finish the fight. Its fighters and fighting styles like rashads that could drag this sport down.

Edit: Squirell, no im not a rua fan. Rampage is the fighter i root for at LHW and always will be.


----------



## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> Another reason cardio. I find it absolutley ridiculous that butcher is using cardio as rashads strength and shoguns weakness, absolutley ridiculous. Rashad is quite clearly fighter with the more suspect cardio. He passed the test in the rampage fight (just) but his cardio has ALWAYS looked iffy. Ruas cardio (other than two fights) has looked OUTSTANDING, the very best in the division.


I'm not so sure you should feel this confident about Shogun's cardio...wasn't the reason for his poor cardio in those 2 fights his knee surgery? the exact same reason why he is out now?

I COULD see Rashad having better cardio in this fight if history is of any indication.

That being said, I'm not sure if it will be.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Mirage445 said:


> I'm not so sure you should feel this confident about Shogun's cardio...wasn't the reason for his poor cardio in those 2 fights his knee surgery? the exact same reason why he is out now?
> 
> I COULD see Rashad having better cardio in this fight if history is of any indication.
> 
> That being said, I'm not sure if it will be.


I should of added to my post. If rua is 100 percent healthy. There is that doubt in my mind, that recovering from this injury will **** him over again. Everything i typed and posted is based on IF rua is 100 percent for the rashad fight.

If rua turns up in the shape he fought griffin and coleman in, he loses.

Im optimistic of the situation though, i dont think this knee injury is any where near as bad as it was prior to griffin/coleman and he isnt rushing in to fight asap, which he did against griffin and coleman. He is letting it heal.


----------



## Johnni G (Dec 2, 2009)

He has two hands?


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> Firstly. I find it very hard to believe you've been following ruas fights since 2006 and state that he isnt going to throw kicks against rashad evans. That is just puzzling.
> 
> Rashad is not going to be able to use that strategy for 25 minutes. 5 rounds of rushing rua to the cage, clinching him taking him down, pitter patter punching, rinse and repeat.
> 
> ...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

I love how Mckeever thinks he is amazing or something. He thinks that we are liars and have not followed a fighter that both spoken and I have said that we liked. He ignores our posts. He insults our chosen fighters. Insults our opinions. And then goes on and says we did not respond to his question.

Again...

Rashad has outpointed fighters in two of his last fights. By your own words that is not really that big of a deal considering you don't mind Rua having terrible cardio for two fights. He did that against two fighters that have been finished how many times? It took a prime wanderlie how many flush strikes to Rampage's face to KO him? It took how many soccer kicks which is one of the most damaging tools in martial arts from Rua to finish him? How many times has silva been finished? What did it take to finish silva? I think it took a full punch usuaing literally all of Machida's weight landing right on the button to KO him. In five of his last seven wins he has finished and in devastating fasion.

Rashad in his last two fights has used the style similar to GSP, Couture... I think those are a few of the most liked fighters in the sport... But how can anyone like them?:sarcastic12:

Maybe you are just hurt because Rashad basically made Rampage look like a child but don't take it out on the fighter.


And how can you say Rashad has iffy cardio? In what fight was he gassed?

You admit that Rua's cardio was bad after his surgery... what is he doing right now? What is Rashad doing? Training and preparing for a all out 5 round war in which he will attempt to do exactly what Spoken and I are saying? I feel like I have fairly good reason's to question Rua's cardio.

You say that Rua has great gameplans... So does Rashad and Greg Jackson. Jackson is known for coming up with ways to beat fighters.

And in what fight has Rua ever come in looking to do something other than he normally does?


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

The505Butcher said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
> 
> I love how Mckeever thinks he is amazing or something. He thinks that we are liars and have not followed a fighter that both spoken and I have said that we liked. He ignores our posts. He insults our chosen fighters. Insults our opinions. And then goes on and says we did not respond to his question.
> 
> ...


I'm quoting this so this brilliance will be on a new page.

To add on to this. Shogun is known for having great gameplans, this is a fact that no one is disputing. And Since I know how Shogun fights and I've been following him for years, I know that he won't be throwing tons of kicks towards Rashad. Sure, he'll throw a few, I'm not saying he won't throw any, but he won't rely on them.

Like I said countless times. Since when was it smart to throw a lot of kicks at a wrestler with a great shot? Shogun WILL be throwing plenty of knees around though, hoping to land on Rashad while he shoots.

So uh.. once again Mckeever, mind bolding my quote in your sig? Making the font bigger? Just really make it stand out okay?


----------



## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

The505Butcher said:


> And how can you say Rashad has iffy cardio? In what fight was he gassed?


vs Thiago Silva in the 3rd round.

And not really relevant HW fights.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Rashad seemed pretty tired, but mostly it was after the big punch. Thiago was taunting him and that really seemed to confuse Rashad. I don't know if he was slowing down though, I need to watch the fight again.

His cardio looked a lot better in the Rampage fight. He only looked slow when he was wobbly.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Mirage445 said:


> vs Thiago Silva in the 3rd round.


He didn't gas IMO he got hurt. He slowed down for a little I admit.

Gassing is Carwin. or Rua/Forrest. or Kimbo. or Rumble/Kos.

Every fighter slows down in later rounds. Unless the fight had no action fighters slow down a little and don't hit as hard.

Rua has one KO in later rounds. He wins early or gets a decision and he is not going to get a decision if Rashad is on top getting TDs all night. He needs to go out and give it everyting he has in round 1 to finish Rashad IMO. He might do it. But I think that Rashad is going to shoot early and wear out Rua.


----------



## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

The505Butcher said:


> You say that Rua has great gameplans... So does Rashad and Greg Jackson. Jackson is known for coming up with ways to beat fighters.


You mean like standing and striking against Machida?
Truly a brilliant strategy.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
> 
> I love how Mckeever thinks he is amazing or something. He thinks that we are liars and have not followed a fighter that both spoken and I have said that we liked. He ignores our posts. He insults our chosen fighters. Insults our opinions. And then goes on and says we did not respond to his question.
> 
> ...


Sorry? How do i think im amazing? How have i insulted your opinions? How have i ignored you're posts when i have replied to almost all of them? Dont try and make this personal for no reason what so ever.

Right, so your logic is because rampage has a good chin, rashads emphasis should be on out pointing him for 3 rounds and inflicting as little damage as possible, whilst making it the most boring fight to watch as well? Okay then, im not quite sure how to respond to this point.... It wasnt like rashad was even TRYING to hurt rampage or thiago, TRYING to get the tko, TRYING to GNP, TRYING to work for submissions, TRYING to end the fight.

Im not disputing that rashad sucks because he couldnt finish rampage or thiago, its the fact that he didnt TRY to finish them. His goal was to out point them whilst inflicting minimal damage. Now, if i seen Rashad trying to fight, working hard for ground and pound, working for subs or just throwing bombs from the feet i would have gained a tonne of respect for the man. The fact is, he didnt even TRY to finish either rampage or thiago which is just sad.

Never ever, ever ever ever compare rashad evans to GSP or a PRIME randy couture. Never. GSP is light years ahead of rashad evans in terms of skill. GSP can actually control his opponent on the ground and brutalise them with ground and pound. You see, GSP is always TRYING to finish the fight. Rashad Evans, take down, poor control, no GNP, no emphasis on finishing the fight.

A prime randy couture. Clinch work, take down, heavy GNP, always looking, always TRYING to finish the fight. Thats why fighters like GSP, Couture, Ortiz, Matt Hughes are so well respected, because their emphasis is actually on finishing their opponents. Rashads isnt. Please note how i said Prime, therefore recent performances from the above fighters is void.

Im not butt hurt over rampage losing. He looked awful in the rashad fight, it was his own fault. 

When has Rashad ever had iffy cardio? I simply dont have an answer for this? I mean really? This has to be the most blind fanbyoism ive ever seen.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Sorry? How do i think im amazing? How have i insulted your opinions? How have i ignored you're posts when i have replied to almost all of them? Dont try and make this personal for no reason what so ever.
> 
> Right, so your logic is because rampage has a good chin, rashads emphasis should be on out pointing him for 3 rounds and inflicting as little damage as possible, whilst making it the most boring fight to watch as well? Okay then, im not quite sure how to respond to this point.... It wasnt like rashad was even TRYING to hurt rampage or thiago, TRYING to get the tko, TRYING to GNP, TRYING to work for submissions, TRYING to end the fight.
> 
> ...


Thanks for bolding, and the underline was a nice touch.

He has shown bad cardio pre Chuck Liddell, I'll admit. But not after.

He tried to finish them, their just hard to finish. Remember the first 15 seconds of the Rampage fight? Remember all the slams on the back of Thiago's head? Remember the huge Overhand rights Rashad was throwing (and landed a monster one to boot) in the final round? Remember Rashad pounding on Rampage while still sort of out of it in the finale of the fight?

He wins fights by using strategy. Sometimes a strategy involves you taking your time and not going for the KO, so you're faulting him for that?

What you call boring, we call strategy.

Besides, it's safe to say that they're turning Rashad into the LHW GSP, he's just not there yet. Give it time.


----------



## Fedorbator (Jun 17, 2010)

Duh...


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> Sorry? How do i think im amazing? How have i insulted your opinions? How have i ignored you're posts when i have replied to almost all of them? Dont try and make this personal for no reason what so ever.
> 
> Right, so your logic is because rampage has a good chin, rashads emphasis should be on out pointing him for 3 rounds and inflicting as little damage as possible, whilst making it the most boring fight to watch as well? Okay then, im not quite sure how to respond to this point.... It wasnt like rashad was even TRYING to hurt rampage or thiago, TRYING to get the tko, TRYING to GNP, TRYING to work for submissions, TRYING to end the fight.
> 
> ...


Do I really need to go back to your posts and point out where you do not listen to my posts and our opinions and insult our opinions?

I will compare Rashad to Couture and GSP. first off Rashad tried most of that fight to finish. How in any way does Rashad think... oh I think I will just mess around with an opponent that can easily KO anyone in the sport and do this :sarcastic12: all night? Just because he did not finish does not mean he was not looking for the finish. Just because he is not like Shogun constantly moving forward and attaking because he has the style to do that does not mean he was not trying to finish the fight. Someone not trying to finish a fight is Anderson/Maia. Let us get that straight.

and what do you mean. Please clarify your last paragraph? Because like I have said... when has Rashad shown iffy cardio?


----------



## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> Thanks for bolding, and the underline was a nice touch.
> 
> He has shown bad cardio pre Chuck Liddell, I'll admit. But not after.
> 
> ...





The505Butcher said:


> Do I really need to go back to your posts and point out where you do not listen to my posts and our opinions and insult our opinions?
> 
> I will compare Rashad to Couture and GSP. first off Rashad tried most of that fight to finish. How in any way does Rashad think... oh I think I will just mess around with an opponent that can easily KO anyone in the sport and do this :sarcastic12: all night? Just because he did not finish does not mean he was not looking for the finish. Just because he is not like Shogun constantly moving forward and attaking because he has the style to do that does not mean he was not trying to finish the fight. Someone not trying to finish a fight is Anderson/Maia. Let us get that straight.
> 
> and what do you mean. Please clarify your last paragraph? Because like I have said... when has Rashad shown iffy cardio?


I totally agree with you two. You've both proven your points, and McKeever's rebuttles have been sophomoric at best. 

That being said, I know from experience from arguing with him, that even if you present the most primo points with solid facts to back them, he'll still disagree and insult your beliefs. My fruitless lobbying for a ban continues... 

And he has the balls to say he isn't a Rua fan!


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

It is actually pointless trying to argue with fanboys, pointless. Rashad wasnt landing any significant ground and pound in either the thiago silva or rampage fight, he wasnt working for submissions, he wasnt TRYING hard enough to finish the fight. Just even comparing rashads performance to the likes of gsp says it all. 

I've nothing more to say on the issue, id like you to point out where ive ignored your posts and insulted your opinions though.

And squirrel, your another blind fanboy but of Machida. Fanboys cant be reasoned with no matter how hard you try.

Also Squirrel, id gladly love to see rampage make an epic come back, get his rematch with shogun and KO him! Yes, the chances are slim to none, but still. Like i said, i root for rampage at LHW. Always have done, always will.


----------



## El Bresko (Mar 12, 2010)

Thiago is a bad man, he'll go far in MMA.


----------



## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> Damn2501... what do you think Spoken and I have been saying? Just because we do not quote your post ddirectly and you choose to ignore all of our other posts does not mean that it was unanswered. Spoken and I have said. Rashad can very easily grindf out a decision against someone who has arguably the worst TDD in the top 5 of the division. Rashad has an explosive stand up style that anyone should worry about. Rashad has never been submitted. It took one of the best strikers in the division 60 strikes to KO Rashad when Rashad was being retarded and trying to please fans that will never be satisfied. Rashad can GnP tko or KO Rua. That is how Rashad can win. IMO he can also submit Rua when Rua gasses.


I didn't ignore any post, I've read every post in this thread since I made my post, I just didn't see anything that was relevant to mine, or answered mine.

Again, how is he going to grind Shogun to a decision without getting caught in 5 rounds when he couldn't do it in 3 against Silva and Rampage? In both those fights he was dominating, but got sloppy in the 3rd. Who knows what it was, over-confidence or gassing, but he cannot afford to get sloppy against Shogun, as Shogun won't let him recover.

Rashad has never been submitted, but he's never submitted anyone either, well unless you count his first professional bout, which may have ended via submission to strikes, against a guy that's 43-46. Rashad will not submit Rua either. Shogun's only been submitted twice, once early in his career against Babalu and then once against Forrest when he was poorly conditioned and suffering from knee injuries which later required major knee surgery. It's very unlikely that he'll be in a remotely comparable condition for this fight. Rashad might be capable of submitting guys, but until he actually proves it and submits a high level guy I don't believe he'll be able to submit Shogun.

Shogun's never been KO'd, and he's fought Little Nog, Chuck Liddell, Alistair Overeem, Rampage Jackson, Cyril Diabate and Evangelista Santos, guys that are/were far more dangerous strikers than Rashad Evans. Shogun took a huge shot from Nogueira but recovered incredibly quickly and ended up winning the fight. Rashad will not knock Shogun out, and if he's planning on knocking Rashad out on the feet he might need to work on a new gameplan, as it's not happening. 

GnP is probably the most likely way for Rashad to win the fight, but Shogun's so active on the ground, with good submissions off his back with nasty leg locks and also has very good sweeps. I think it's very unlikely that Rashad'll be able to hold Shogun down for 5 rounds, he's no GSP TBH. So I'm personally seeing no way for Rashad to win, but I guess we'll see on fight night.

For the record, I don't dislike Rashad at all, and actually like Rashad, I just swing from Shogun's nuts. I have no hard feelings towards you guys, and totally respect the way you've been defending and supporting one of your favourite fighters. Looking forward to seeing how the fight turns out, one of us is going to be badly wrong. Looking forward to it :thumb02:


----------



## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

> I didn't ignore any post, I've read every post in this thread since I made my post, I just didn't see anything that was relevant to mine, or answered mine.
> 
> Again, how is he going to grind Shogun to a decision without getting caught in 5 rounds when he couldn't do it in 3 against Silva and Rampage? In both those fights he was dominating, but got sloppy in the 3rd. Who knows what it was, over-confidence or gassing, but he cannot afford to get sloppy against Shogun, as Shogun won't let him recover.
> 
> ...


Just about sums it up.

And guys, it's probably better not to further inflate Rashad's ego by likening him to Randy Couture and GSP, because he'll need to be of the most realistic down to earth mind-set possible for any chance of beating Shogun.


----------



## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> It is actually pointless trying to argue with fanboys, pointless. Rashad wasnt landing any significant ground and pound in either the thiago silva or rampage fight, he wasnt working for submissions, he wasnt TRYING hard enough to finish the fight. Just even comparing rashads performance to the likes of gsp says it all.
> 
> I've nothing more to say on the issue, id like you to point out where ive ignored your posts and insulted your opinions though.
> 
> ...


So I'm a Machida fanboy? Machida is my favorite UFC fighter, I admit that. But how have I ever been a Machida fanboy? Because I think Machida vs Rua 1 was close? That's seriously the only point of contention about Machida we've ever disagreed on. But, oh, I disagree with you so I'm a fanboy. 

I would also like to see Rampage make a comeback, he's still got plenty of time left before he's over the hill IMO. I think a rematch with Rua would be awesome, as I said in the Evans vs Jackson pre/post fight thread. I want to see him come back, but I don't think he can do it against Machida... I bet we disagree about that one too huh?


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> Argh, this post hurts my brain. You have watched all of shoguns pride fights or so you claim and yet you say you are not sold on his cardio?


Here you assume that I have not been following Rua even though you have no proof and I have been a fan since pride.



Mckeever said:


> Stopped reading right here. Please actually read my post before making a reply.


Here you ignore my post in your own words when I am answering your question specifically.




Mckeever said:


> Firstly. I find it very hard to believe you've been following ruas fights since 2006 and state that he isnt going to throw kicks against rashad evans. That is just puzzling.
> 
> Another reason cardio. I find it absolutley ridiculous that butcher is using cardio as rashads strength and shoguns weakness, absolutley ridiculous.
> 
> I also posted before but didnt get a response. Im interested as to how any one can support a fighter who uses such boring tactics and out pointing their opponents to get the victory.


Here you assume Spoken has not watched all of Rua's fights even though he says he has and you have no proof. Just that we disagree with you.

You also think that I am ridiculous for questioning a fighters cardio when he has gassed twice in recent fights.

You also admit that you have not been responded to when I have responded to your "How can someone be a fan?" post twice already.



Mckeever said:


> It is actually pointless trying to argue with fanboys, pointless. Rashad wasnt landing any significant ground and pound in either the thiago silva or rampage fight, he wasnt working for submissions, he wasnt TRYING hard enough to finish the fight. Just even comparing rashads performance to the likes of gsp says it all.
> 
> I've nothing more to say on the issue, *id like you to point out where ive ignored your posts and insulted your opinions though.*And squirrel, your another blind fanboy but of Machida. Fanboys cant be reasoned with no matter how hard you try.


There you go buddy. This is just in this thread alone and I have had a problem when you post things on other threads on numerous occasions.

Oh and lets just go back to your last post. Here you also say that we are blind fanboys that can not look at it and give unbiased opinions when that is what we have been doing most of this thread...

So in a post where you are trying to wonder where you are insulting other posters... your insulting other posters...

Happy?


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Danm2501 said:


> I didn't ignore any post, I've read every post in this thread since I made my post, I just didn't see anything that was relevant to mine, or answered mine.
> 
> Again, how is he going to grind Shogun to a decision without getting caught in 5 rounds when he couldn't do it in 3 against Silva and Rampage? In both those fights he was dominating, but got sloppy in the 3rd. Who knows what it was, over-confidence or gassing, but he cannot afford to get sloppy against Shogun, as Shogun won't let him recover.
> 
> ...


I don't have a problem with you. It is Mckeever that I do have a problem with. I was just so upset by him by the time I quoted you and I had just come off of responding to him so I probably should have taken a breather. Anyways I am double posting since I had to respond to Mckeever and decided to relax a little but if I come off as harsh I appologize.

I think that Rua might Sweep Rashad because he has great sweeps and Rashad will be in trouble there. I think Rashad is good enough and quick enough off his back to get out though and it will be hard to sweep Rashad because he will be training a lot for that. I really think that Rashad will be training pure grappling for this fight because Rua is such a great and dangerous striker.

Rua might submit Rashad but I doubt it because he has one subbmission win against Randleman and like Spoken and I have said he might throw a submission from his back so Rashad is forced to defend it and lets Rua get up so Rua can go for strikes again.

I am the only one that thinks Rua will gas so this is just my opinion but the main reason I think Rashad will submit Rua is because he is so hard to KO. Even T/KO. I think he will do a lot of it to make Rua give up his back in the later round when I assume Rua will gas and sink an RNC but that is just me.

I think Rua has an extremely high probability to catch Rashad but I think Rashad will be able to muscle out of it by going for the TD while dazed and he is so damn good at it and Rua has such terrible TDD that I think whenever Rashad does get in trouble it will be a Cain/Kongo type of ordeal. Do not get me wrong I am not thinking Rua's ground game is as terrible as Kongo's, just that Rashad will survive and grind out the decision if he gasses or gets slower or gets hurt.

My main reason for choosing Rashad in this fight is because Rua has such terrible TDD and in so many other fights we have seen dinamic strikers with zero TDD lose because they can not finish the fight from their back.

BTW +rep for not getting upset with me when I was being a douche. I appologize.


----------



## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

Wow a Mod is really trolling this thread hard.

Talking sense about Rashad to Spoken is like trying to talk sense to a Fedor fan is the sherdog contenders forum. 

He is just blinded by his bias.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

JimmyJames said:


> Wow a Mod is really trolling this thread hard.
> 
> Talking sense about Rashad to Spoken is like trying to talk sense to a Fedor fan is the sherdog contenders forum.
> 
> He is just blinded by his bias.


How is Spoken Trolling?


----------



## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> How is Spoken Trolling?


You wont get it because you are also blinded by your bias. Though you are a posting a better argument. 

LOL at the Rashad fans sticking up for eachother.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Danm2501 said:


> I didn't ignore any post, I've read every post in this thread since I made my post, I just didn't see anything that was relevant to mine, or answered mine.
> 
> Again, how is he going to grind Shogun to a decision without getting caught in 5 rounds when he couldn't do it in 3 against Silva and Rampage? In both those fights he was dominating, but got sloppy in the 3rd. Who knows what it was, over-confidence or gassing, but he cannot afford to get sloppy against Shogun, as Shogun won't let him recover.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of this post except for a few things, but that's the beauty of MMA, we won't know until we know. I totally respect your differing opinion, especially since you present it in such a professional way with facts behind your opinion.

I'm not saying it's written in stone that Rashad will win, I said earlier that IMO its about 60/40 odds for Rashad. It's cool if you disagree, because we're just fans.

Our problem is with Mckeever and.. well 505 broke it down already.

The things I dispute in your post is Rashad's ability to KO Shogun. I certainly don't think it'll happen standing, but probably on the ground and probably a T/KO. Rashad does have "put people to sleep for long periods of time" power, and has proven it on more than one occasion. Because of that, he has the ability to do that to any human. (Well, almost any)

Another thing about Shogun off his back. He's incredibly good off his back, and he throws out lots of submission attempts, but I doubt he'll land any of it on Rashad. Rashad is incredibly hard to submit, always has been. He's been caught in deep chokes early in his UFC career that could have ended him (The Keith Jardine guillotine was nasty, and the Tito Ortiz rear naked was nasty as well) but he hasn't been in danger since. Shogun, throughout his entire career, has used submission attempts to actually sweep opponents rather than finish them. He finished Randleman with an awesome kneebar but he had to work with it for about what.. a full 30 seconds or more?

I swing from Rashad's nuts so it's cool if we disagree on a few things, I still respect your opinion fam


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

JimmyJames said:


> You wont get it because you are also blinded by your bias. Though you are a posting a better argument.
> 
> LOL at the Rashad fans sticking up for eachother.


No I would understand if you call us biased because to someone who does not agree with us it probably seems that way but trolling is a different thing than what Spoken has been doing.

Trolling IMO is:
Rua is a p*ssy who can only get to the top by _____<-enter insult.

Rua is a f*g from Brazil that can not handle American wrestling.

-something- p*ssy -something- *ssbag -something- cracktard -something-.

I don't know. Maybe I am a troll.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

JimmyJames said:


> You wont get it because you are also blinded by your bias. Though you are a posting a better argument.
> 
> LOL at the Rashad fans sticking up for eachother.


We see eye to eye so of course we'll be friendly towards each other, that's human nature.

So uh.. Jimmy, what have I been wrong about so far that isn't strictly opinion?


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> We see eye to eye so of course we'll be friendly towards each other, that's human nature.
> 
> So uh.. Jimmy, what have I been wrong about so far that isn't strictly opinion?


I know! There is so few of us that we have to stick together! Spoken has my back and I got his in the treches...

No ****. (That works online too right?)

:thumb02:


----------



## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> No I would understand if you call us biased because to someone who does not agree with us it probably seems that way but trolling is a different thing than what Spoken has been doing.
> 
> Trolling IMO is:
> Rua is a p*ssy who can only get to the top by _____<-enter insult.
> ...


What you described here is hardcore trolling. Spoken has baited McKeever and probably a few other members who have argued with him in this thread. It isnt bad but it is trolling or baiting call it what you want. 

Or maybe it's just me because I hate nuthuggers and nuthugging so much.


----------



## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

JimmyJames said:


> What you described here is hardcore trolling. Spoken has baited McKeever and probably a few other members who have argued with him in this thread. It isnt bad but it is trolling or baiting call it what you want.
> 
> Or maybe it's just me because I hate nuthuggers and nuthugging so much.


Calling Spoken a troll or nuthugger is really a bunch of BS. 

He's presented his opinion, and facts to back it up. Same with 505. How is that nuthugging or trolling? And baiting McKeever? I swear its that time of the month for him any time there's a Shogun vs Anyone thread. He started the argument. Per usual McKeever protocol. 

Also: I don't think Evans will win. I think he'll be able to take Shogun down, and grind him on the cage, but not for 5 rounds. He'll eventually slow down. Shogun looked pretty good in the championship rounds against Machida, and he was throwing flurry after flurry the whole fight just to catch him. I don't question his cardio for that reason alone. Evans isn't as fast as Machida, Shogun is as fast if not a little faster than Machida. Shogun has uber KO power, Evans has moderate power. Rua via KO championship rounds.


----------



## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

> My main reason for choosing Rashad in this fight is because Rua has such terrible TDD and in so many other fights we have seen dinamic strikers with zero TDD lose because they can not finish the fight from their back.


Shogun is not one of those fighters.

Honestly the bad TDD argument is null and void in the case of Shogun, you guys should know this because you all keep saying how you've been following him for years.

...SHOGUN RUA DOES NOT NEED TDD AND DOES NOT USE TDD...


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

JimmyJames said:


> What you described here is hardcore trolling. Spoken has baited McKeever and probably a few other members who have argued with him in this thread. It isnt bad but it is trolling or baiting call it what you want.
> 
> Or maybe it's just me because I hate nuthuggers and nuthugging so much.


I'm just waiting for examples. It's easy to accuse someone.



SM33 said:


> Shogun is not one of those fighters.
> 
> Honestly the bad TDD argument is null and void in the case of Shogun, you guys should know this because you all keep saying how you've been following him for years.
> 
> ...SHOGUN RUA DOES NOT NEED TDD AND DOES NOT USE TDD...


Why would not having tdd against someone with good takedowns not needed? Wait what?! Think about it this way. He would have destroyed Coleman if he could have kept it standing.


----------



## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

@ Spoken I've already read this whole thread once today and I not gonna go throught it again to pull out what I think is you baiting another member. It doesnt really matter anyway as I am not a Mod.

@Squirrelfighter Spoken admits he is a nuthugger.



> I swing from Rashad's nuts so it's cool if we disagree on a few things, I still respect your opinion fam


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

JimmyJames said:


> @ Spoken I've already read this whole thread once today and I not gonna go throught it again to pull out what I think is you baiting another member. It doesnt really matter anyway as I am not a Mod.
> 
> @Squirrelfighter Spoken admits he is a nuthugger.


I don't even know what to say to this... nothing I guess.

I will say that even though I nuthug, I don't show bias. All my opinions come from an objective stand point. I picked Machida over Rashad and I didn't even like Machida at the time. So.. the fact that I nuthug once against doesn't change any facts.


----------



## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

JimmyJames said:


> @Squirrelfighter Spoken admits he is a nuthugger.


Yeah, I figured as much! And I stand corrected. But he's still got a lot of logical thinking behind his ideas. Grinding Shogun against the cage using dirty boxing to supplement takedowns for example. If Evans can do it, and watch out for the Thai clinch he can do a lot of damage.


----------



## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> I don't even know what to say to this... nothing I guess.
> 
> I will say that even though I nuthug, I don't show bias. *All my opinions come from an objective stand point.* I picked Machida over Rashad and I didn't even like Machida at the time. So.. the fact that I nuthug once against doesn't change any facts.


The bolded part made me LOL.

My last post in this thread I'll let you guys go back to arguing. Cant wait to see this fight happen.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

objectivity doesn't change the fact that it's an opinion. Key word here is opinion.


----------



## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

After all this, i still think rashad has the tools to beat rua. If rua wants to think that he can allow a real wrestler to get on top of him in a comfortable position (which he wont think since he usually has good game plans) he will lose. the big difference is that if shogun throws the leg kicks he leaves himself open for the takedown.this will be a good test to see if rua can keep the fight standing which guys with better tdd could not do against rashad. the more i read the more i see assuptions that rua will easily sweep evans off him. even so, that takes energy and rashad still gets the points. Also note worthy is the fact that shogun has only one or two wins via sub, this means to finish the fight he wants and needs it to be standing, while rashad can win on the ground and on the feet.

I hate the fact that people are so quick to rate rua so high. to the point of him being so good he would destroy rampage,rashad,machida easily-forgone conclusion. this is a fight if you think rashad has no way to win then you obviosly need to think about it a bit more.



> Originally Posted by SM33 View Post
> Shogun is not one of those fighters.
> 
> Honestly the bad TDD argument is null and void in the case of Shogun, you guys should know this because you all keep saying how you've been following him for years.
> ...


That seems like a great idea till he loses by sub to guys like forest griffin......


----------



## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> objectivity doesn't change the fact that it's an opinion. Key word here is opinion.


Definition of objectivity.



> A judgment of how fairly and equally an information source treats all sides of a topic. An objective source relies on facts rather than opinions or beliefs. See Also: Bias


----------



## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

> Why would not having tdd against someone with good takedowns not needed? Wait what?! Think about it this way. He would have destroyed Coleman if he could have kept it standing.


Well the point is that regardless if he kept it standing against Coleman or not, he still won!! Get it? Still won, and it was a stoppage.

So likewise, regardless if Rashad cage humps all night and takes him down a few times and it's not a 100% stand up fight, 9 times out of 10 Shogun will win.

Takedowns, pitter-patter punches and waiting for the end of every round are not going to get Rashad Evans through 25 minutes with the most dangerous LHW in the world. And god forbid he trys any shit like the opening right hand he landed on Jackson.



> That seems like a great idea till he loses by sub to guys like forest griffin......


Yes, keep going back to the Griffin and Coleman fights, Shogun was in a poor state but still didn't lose both of them.

Everyone's points are based on 2 fights where Rua was badly conditioned and had injuries, I base my points on ALL of Shogun's fights and ALL of Rashad's fights.

I don't dispute that if Shogun is any less than 80% he will probably lose against Evans, but hoping a fighter turns up in bad condition is disgusting and the way Evans fans only mention these two fights to make points, it seems like you hope for that, and are in denial about Shogun's potential when he's healthy.

Back to the point, yes Griffin submitted Shogun, not before taking a shit load of damage when he was ON TOP, reinforcing that Shogun is dangerous on the ground and off his back. If he hadn't gassed Griffin would never have got that sub.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

JimmyJames said:


> Definition of objectivity.


So I had no facts in any of my posts? I don't tie those facts into my opinion? Am I really bias seeing as Shogun is also my favorite fighter?

You don't have to quote me, but what have I said that's so far out of left field?

I mean, I could equally say all the reasons why Shogun can win. Knees during the shot, sweeping keeping it in the middle of the octagon. spamming submission attempts with no intent to finish to get it standing. Flat out catching Rashad. Outlasting him in the championship rounds. Finding the balance between aggresive countering that frustrates Rashad. Using Judo in the clinch to get Rashad on his back. I could go on and on, but I choose not to.


----------



## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

SM33 said:


> Well the point is that regardless if he kept it standing against Coleman or not, he still won!! Get it? Still won, and it was a stoppage.
> 
> So likewise, regardless if Rashad cage humps all night and takes him down a few times and it's not a 100% stand up fight, 9 times out of 10 Shogun will win.
> 
> ...


But it seems to me that you are basing you views of rashads fighting style on his last two fights rather than the one he fought vs chuck or forest.whether shogun shows up in shape or not, i think that thinking that shogun can do whatever he wants from the bottom is not a good idea.The point being he was taken down by forrest griffin and subbed. griffin is not the best fighter on the ground and he is not a wrestler but was still able to get the TD and tire shogun out.


----------



## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

SM33 said:


> Well the point is that regardless if he kept it standing against Coleman or not, he still won!! Get it? Still won, and it was a stoppage.
> 
> So likewise, regardless if Rashad cage humps all night and takes him down a few times and it's not a 100% stand up fight, 9 times out of 10 Shogun will win.
> 
> ...


No you have a good point. A lot of our points and evidence is in the last two fights of Rashad and in the Coleman/Griffin fights. Mainly because that is where we think Rashad should fight these fights and how I think Rua is going to show up.

Though in my defence I also bring up both the Lyoto fights and even Rashad against Lyoto.

Lyoto was able to take down Rua with ease and while I am not saying Lyoto has terrible TDs I am saying Rashad is just as good in his wrestling style and a lot stronger in the clinch. Just that Lyoto is a lot trippier.(litterally)

I don't think that Rua is any of the terrible fighters that we have seen lose because the have zero TDD I say this because Hoping to get back to the feet and finish it there is a terrible gameplan 9/10 times. That is just my opinion though.


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

JimmyJames said:


> Wow a Mod is really trolling this thread hard.
> 
> Talking sense about Rashad to Spoken is like trying to talk sense to a Fedor fan is the sherdog contenders forum.
> 
> He is just blinded by his bias.





JimmyJames said:


> You wont get it because you are also blinded by your bias. Though you are a posting a better argument.
> 
> LOL at the Rashad fans sticking up for eachother.


Are you kidding? I am in no way a Rashad fan as anyone who's read my posts knows, so I'm not biased. Spoken is not trolling at all, he's actually having a discussion, is he biased, yes it's his favorite fighter, I'm biased towards mine too as is everyone. Spoken is actually using info and a thought out argument to DISCUSS why he thinks Rashad will win...how is that trolling? Because he doesn't agree with you?


> What you described here is hardcore trolling. Spoken has baited McKeever and probably a few other members who have argued with him in this thread. It isnt bad but it is trolling or baiting call it what you want.


I've disagreed with Spoken whenever Rashad fights and have never once thought he was trolling. Get some thicker skin, he has a strong opinion without insulting when there is a disagreement, that's what this forum needs. Not a guy posting something unrelated to the thread and "trolling" another poster directly.


----------



## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

Life B Ez said:


> Are you kidding? I am in no way a Rashad fan as anyone who's read my posts knows, so I'm not biased. Spoken is not trolling at all, he's actually having a discussion, is he biased, yes it's his favorite fighter, I'm biased towards mine too as is everyone. Spoken is actually using info and a thought out argument to DISCUSS why he thinks Rashad will win...how is that trolling? Because he doesn't agree with you?
> 
> 
> I've disagreed with Spoken whenever Rashad fights and have never once thought he was trolling. Get some thicker skin, he has a strong opinion without insulting when there is a disagreement, that's what this forum needs. Not a guy posting something unrelated to the thread and "trolling" another poster directly.


:thumb02:

LOL at me getting thicker skin.


----------



## Sousa (Jun 16, 2007)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Thiago doesn't have the skills to beat any top 5 LHW.


I guess you forgot that Thiago was extremely tired and nearly ko'ed him in the third round. The same thing happened when he fought Rampage or is Rampage crap and can't beat anyone now too?



Thelegend said:


> I hate the fact that people are so quick to rate rua so high. to the point of him being so good he would destroy rampage,rashad,machida easily-forgone conclusion. this is a fight if you think rashad has no way to win then you obviosly need to think about it a bit more.
> 
> 
> 
> That seems like a great idea till he loses by sub to guys like forest griffin......


He already destroyed Rampage and Machida though. Also when he lost to Griffin he had a knee injury and couldn't train effectively. He couldn't train his cardio nothing, he was gased goign into that fight basically and by the time he got submitted he was long done because of his injury. He re-injured his knee in that fight as well, thats why he had 2 years off to rehab.

If you're bashing him because he lost to Griffin thats just stupid and you're ignoring the facts.He wouldn't lose again, and Shogun is the BEST LHW around. He has been for quite a while was rated in the top 3 since pride.


----------



## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

Sousa said:


> He already destroyed Rampage and Machida though. Also when he lost to Griffin he had a knee injury and couldn't train effectively. He couldn't train his cardio nothing, he was gased goign into that fight basically and by the time he got submitted he was long done because of his injury. He re-injured his knee in that fight as well, thats why he had 2 years off to rehab.
> 
> If you're bashing him because he lost to Griffin thats just stupid and you're ignoring the facts.*He wouldn't lose again*, and Shogun is the BEST LHW around. He has been for quite a while was rated in the top 3 since pride.


he got taken down by machida, by forest as well. point being he can be taken down and beaten there. to say rashad does not have the tools or has no chance based on two fights he had against two tough opponents is wrong. another point is the sudden thought that rua cant lose to these guys even though his tdd is so bad.:confused02: Mahida is one thing, but i see a huge hole in his game that there is a high probability will lose him the fight. If rua can't sweep or get the sub from the bottom, it will be TD all night IMO.


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Thelegend said:


> *he got taken down by machida*, by forest as well. point being he can be taken down and beaten there. to say rashad does not have the tools or has no chance based on two fights he had against two tough opponents is wrong. another point is the sudden thought that rua cant lose to these guys even though his tdd is so bad.:confused02: Mahida is one thing, but i see a huge hole in his game that there is a high probability will lose him the fight. If rua can't sweep or get the sub from the bottom, it will be TD all night IMO.


Machida has a serious sumo background, so being takendown by Machida and then slipping and being taken down again isn't that big of a deal. And we all know the story about the Forrest fight.


----------



## dvonfunk (Oct 31, 2007)

I'm going to have to disagree with Silva and the majority of the posters on this board on this one. I think Rashad has a very real chance at beating Rua. I am by no means a Rashad fan and will be rooting for Rua in this one, but Rashad just knows how to win. 

Granted, Rua looked amazing in both of the Machida fights but I really believe that Rua just has his number. That's not taking anything away from Rua, I'm just saying that stylistically, he's figured Machida out and would beat him 9 out of 10 times (he's already beat him twice in my books). But let's be honest here, how has he looked in his other UFC fights? Against Forrest? Terrible. Against Coleman? Slightly less terrible. Against Chuck? Let's not even go there. Tito would KO Chuck these days...

I think the thing people are really not emphasizing on here enough is Shogun's health. His knee (or is it knees?) is made of paper mache. Is he going to try and rush back or make sure he's 100%? Although at this point his knee will never be 100% again. This brings into question his conditioning. We all saw it in the Coleman and Forrest fight when he wasn't completely healthy. I don't think Rashad's cardio is tremendous. It's good, but not great. However, I'm willing to bet it will be better than Rua's and we all know that that alone could be the difference in a fight.

Another thing to take into account is Shogun's focus in this fight. Right now, his focus has to be solely on getting his health right and then he can start focusing on Rashad. As for Rashad, you have to believe he's already dialed into this fight 110%. 

Also, I'd give the striking edge to Rua but I don't think Rashad's chin is as bad as advertised. Machida KO'ed him because he has uncanny timing. Rampage has some of the heaviest hands in the division and hurt him but couldn't finish him. I think Thiago rocked him too, but again, he's got big-time power. My point is, Rashad's been hurt but he's only been finished once and it was his only loss.

Bottom line, Rua should be the favorite, albeit a slight one. In fact it should almost be a pick 'em. I think the books will favor Rua more heavily than they should in light of the Machida fights, which is why I'll be laying money down on Rashad. Who's the more talented fighter? Who's got more tools? It's Rua. But when you factor everything else in I think Rashad has a very good shot at reclaiming his belt. We all know that he'll get the takedowns, it's what he can do when he gets them, and the longer this fight goes, the more I like Rashad's chances. 

Gun to my head- Rashad via Split Decision.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Life B Ez said:


> Machida has a serious sumo background, so being takendown by Machida and then slipping and being taken down again isn't that big of a deal. And we all know the story about the Forrest fight.


Well, he was taken down by Forrest, Chuck, Coleman, and Machida. He's been taken down in every single one of his UFC fights. Rashad will, without question, get him down, if that's his gameplan.

This is a general post, not really directed at you, just saying.


----------



## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

> I don't think that Rua is any of the terrible fighters that we have seen lose because the have zero TDD I say this because Hoping to get back to the feet and finish it there is a terrible gameplan 9/10 times. That is just my opinion though.





> Well, he was taken down by Forrest, Chuck, Coleman, and Machida. He's been taken down in every single one of his UFC fights. Rashad will, without question, get him down, if that's his gameplan.


Yes what I am trying to say is that Shogun doesn't need to be standing to finish the fight. So just becasuse Rashad can and probably will take him down a lot, it does not equate to an advantage over Shogun. It's just another place where Shogun is the better striker, as well as having better jitsu etc. 

So Shogun's gameplan will not be "hoping to get back to the feet", because he's comfortable on the ground. And yes he only has 1 submission win, but quite a few of his (T)KO's are via GNP.

And I do consider all of Rashad's fights - he is good at controlling opponents and he can land that KO punch/kick, he has a very real chance against Rua. Unlikely a stoppage IMO.

I think Shogun does set the standard though, health permitting, as a dangerous and well rounded fighter. He's young, has a load of experience, is humble, and is holding the belt. Also, when he's on form, cardio is not an issue.


----------



## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

It will be interesting to watch. Forest beat shogun rashad beat forest but can he beat shogun. I can't wait to see it.


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Michael Carson said:


> Well, he was taken down by Forrest, Chuck, Coleman, and Machida. He's been taken down in every single one of his UFC fights. Rashad will, without question, get him down, if that's his gameplan.
> 
> This is a general post, not really directed at you, just saying.


That's true, but also Chuck and Coleman are/were great wrestlers, Machida has the sumo background. I don't really have anything for Forrest taking him down other than what has been said about his knees. I don't doubt that Rashad will take him down though. I just don't think Rashad will be able to keep him down because Shogun has swept guys with much better top control.


----------



## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Shogun probably saw a few of Rashad's fights. 

I think both guys will have a pretty good idea of what to expect, and there is nothing we know that they don't. 

Now that we've seen Rashad revert and rely on his wrestling so heavily to win fights, we all know better than to question what his plan is.

Also, believe it or not, speaking Portuguese does not make you less intelligent or less capable of implimenting a gameplan. And as a guy who's seen all fights from both fighters, it's 50/50 to me with the variable being : 

Can Rashad be mentally strong and stay like that for 15 minutes? Rampage was a special case, it would have been humiliating for Rashad to lose. In this fight, I feel like a lot of people are putting a lot of weight on his shoulders.


I carry both flags, for the record. My heart says Shogun, but Rashad is probably my favorite UFC original.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> Here you assume that I have not been following Rua even though you have no proof and I have been a fan since pride.
> *
> It wasnt an assumption. I believe you have watched all of ruas pride fights, i just found it shocking you could criticise ruas cardio after he has shown outstanding cardio in every single one of his pride fights. *
> 
> ...


I wouldnt consider calling you a Rashad fan body as an insult, especially seeing as though you are admitting it? None of my posts were meant to be insulting.

See bolded for replies.

@Squirrell. No, i have Machida beating rampage, but i dont think it will be as decisive as people are making out. Should be fireworks. Also good luck trying to get me banned from the forums.


----------

