# So what would Brock vs Overeem look like now??



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Im guessing opinions have changed???

First im thinking that Overeem would dismantle Brock seeing as how Cain destroyed Brock but then i started thinking Brock would take Overeem down and would just pound on him for 3 rounds AND THEN started thinking Overeem is so strong that if he focused on it he could focus on using his strength to stop Brock from taking him down or at-least make him pay with a good knee. The more i think of this fight the more i feel that Brock would be beaten like a helpless child. We saw what Cain did to Brock, imagine if those were Overeems fists being thrown. Yikes...


----------



## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Lesnar runs forward. Grabs Overeem, throws him to the ground. Jumps on top and hammers Overeem either unconcious or enough to get into a position to submit him from.

Pretty much the exact same way as the Cain fight would have gone if Cain had been unable to stand back up right away.

The problem with fighting Lesnar is that you have to be able to get up from his takedowns or avoid them or else you are going to be in some big trouble. Cain is one of the few guys that could do that, I don't think Overeem could.

In a standup war Overeem wins easily but MMA don't think so.


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

420atalon said:


> Lesnar runs forward. Grabs Overeem, throws him to the ground. Jumps on top and hammers Overeem either unconcious or enough to get into a position to submit him from.
> 
> Pretty much the exact same way as the Cain fight would have gone if Cain had been unable to stand back up right away.
> 
> ...



More people still have this opinion??

If Overeem ever joins the UFC im sure this is a fight the UFC will jump on just because of the sheer rize of these guys. Il be making some bets with people in any case.


----------



## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

420atalon said:


> Lesnar runs forward. Grabs Overeem, throws him to the ground. Jumps on top and hammers Overeem either unconcious *or enough to get into a position to submit him from.*
> 
> Pretty much the exact same way as the Cain fight would have gone if Cain had been unable to stand back up right away.
> 
> ...


I do not for the life of me see how people consider Brock to be some sort of sub artist. He hit a BASIC sub against a guy who flat out gave up. I doubt Brock will have another sub win again in his career unless its against a non top 10 guy.

Brocks method of success:

Bull rush takedown. Good top control. Throw punches until the ref stops.

How to avoid Brocks method of success:

Good TD defense and punch him in the face.


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> I do not for the life of me see how people consider Brock to be some sort of sub artist. He hit a BASIC sub against a guy who flat out gave up. I doubt Brock will have another sub win again in his career unless its against a non top 10 guy.
> 
> Brocks method of success:
> 
> ...




Lol i somehow missed that part. It is kind of silly how people think Brock is going to start submitting people. I have read this a few times now and just kinda giggled about it.


----------



## elardo (Jul 8, 2007)

If Brock still wilts after taking hard shots after his last fight, I couldn't see him getting out of round 1 against Overeem.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

I'm 99.99999 percent certain Overeem would dismantle Brock within the first round. Maybe with in the first minute of the first round.

People dont seem to realise just how damn strong Overeem is. He is stronger than Brock, yes, believe it. When Carwin stuffed Brocks td's there was actually very little wrestling involved. He managed to stuff Brocks td's in that first round with mainly his size and strength. Cain neutralised Brocks wrestling with pure technique.

Alistair Overeem is stronger than Carwin and he is stronger than Brock. The Reem will fight fire with fire. Use his own strength and size to neutralise Brocks strength and size. Overeem is also the most experienced Heavyweight in the world, that would be a major factor in the fight.

Overeem wins this fight via which ever brutal Muay Thai technique he wants.

Overeem and Cain are the two most talented heavyweights in the world right now.


----------



## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

^^^^ I don't consider Brock to be a sub artist. But I could definitely see him going for a sub to win a fight early so that he doesn't have to worry about the later rounds or getting stood back up. 

I expect him to go for the TKO but if his opponent is softened up and gives him a chance at a choke I see him going for it. I don't expect him to whip out a flying armbar or an omoplata but any basic subs that rely on strength I could see him going for.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Overeem via guillotine choke! I also believe he is a good enough Wrestler to stop Brock's telegraphed Takedowns. I also believe he would get back up again too.

But he should fight immediately for the belt against Cain or JDS instead of fighting Brock if he joins the UFC next year maybe.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Carwin and Cain are both great wrestlers, Overeem is not. It is a matter of who catches who first. Does Overeem strike first or does Lesnar get a hold of him. I have no doubt that Lesnar can take Overeem down, I also have no doubt Overeem is capable of KO'ing Lesnar striking. My bet is donkey kong smash based on the fact that I can't even think of a single good wrestler that Overeem has ever fought never mind one that you could use as any indication he could stop a Lesnar TD.


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Carwin and Cain are both great wrestlers, Overeem is not. It is a matter of who catches who first. Does Overeem strike first or does Lesnar get a hold of him. I have no doubt that Lesnar can take Overeem down, I also have no doubt Overeem is capable of KO'ing Lesnar striking. My bet is donkey kong smash based on the fact that I can't even think of a single good wrestler that Overeem has ever fought never mind one that you could use as any indication he could stop a Lesnar TD.


Even if he does take Overeem down, i just dont see him being able to do what he did to Mir down there. Overeem might be down there for a bit, but within a minute or 2 he would be back up and smashing Brock with his fists. After the first couple of punches thrown by Overeem, Brock would be mentally broke and the fight would be over. I think you are giving Brock way too much credit and Overeem way too little.

I agree with the poster above who says Overeem is stronger then Brock.


----------



## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

Overeem would demolish Brock and I held that opinion even before he lost the belt. Overeem, JDS, Fedor, and Cain are in a different class of fighting than Brock Lesnar will ever be.


----------



## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

SideWays222 said:


> I agree with the poster above who says Overeem is stronger then Brock.


Why? Because he threw an off balanced tire mechanic brawler around?

I have no problem admitting that Overeem looks good these days and that the move to HW and bulking up was definitely the right choice for him but the guy hsan't fought anyone worth noting in 3 years and he lost those fights...

Buentello or Rogers would be his biggest win since then.......

The best wrestler he has fought recently is James freaking Thompson who was out wrestled by Kimbo freaking Slice.

Overeem has a lot more questions to be answered then Lesnar does right now before you can throw him automatically into #2 spot in the world(or #1 if you are that inclined...).


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> Even if he does take Overeem down, i just dont see him being able to do what he did to Mir down there. Overeem might be down there for a bit, but within a minute or 2 he would be back up and smashing Brock with his fists. After the first couple of punches thrown by Overeem, Brock would be mentally broke and the fight would be over. I think you are giving Brock way too much credit and Overeem way too little.
> 
> I agree with the poster above who says Overeem is stronger then Brock.


What are you basing this on? Mir has a proven track record of being able to work from his back. What does Overeem have? When has he shown he can do anything from his back? Even name a solid grappler that Overeem has beat? Overeem has been submitting and KO'ing a bunch of strikers for years. Fujita is arguably the best grappler he has ever beaten. Your making some pretty big assumptions based on nothing.


----------



## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

420atalon said:


> Lesnar runs forward. Grabs Overeem.....


2 scenarios:
1. Overeem knees Brock and either KO's him straight away or he sends Brock down and then does pounds him till Brock goes into "fetus mode" (just like Overeem vs Rogers)

2. Overeem sinks in a guillotine and fight is over




420atalon said:


> In a standup war Overeem wins easily but MMA don't think so.


Definitely!!!


----------



## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> Even if he does take Overeem down, i just dont see him being able to do what he did to Mir down there. Overeem might be down there for a bit, but within a minute or 2 he would be back up and smashing Brock with his fists. After the first couple of punches thrown by Overeem, Brock would be mentally broke and the fight would be over. I think you are giving Brock way too much credit and Overeem way too little.


On the other hand Overeem isn't exactly great off his back, and if he does get put on his back he wilts himself as was seen in his fights against Shogun. Similar thing in his 2nd fight against Rogerio Nogueira, once he got put on his back he was down for the last 3 minutes or so of the round. The upkicks were nice but half of them would be illegal in the UFC.

Granted it's been a few years and we haven't seen Overeem get put on his back lately, but unless he's made some serious improvements in his ground games off his back, he's going to be in deep trouble if Brock takes him down.


----------



## astrallite (Mar 14, 2010)

Overeem has take down defense? Even if he is stronger than Carwin in some imaginary universe, he's not an NCAA DII wrestling champion and does not have the ability to stop Brocks takedown.

Also, Cain is _extremely_ fast and sprang up almost as fast as GSP does when someone gets a takedown on him. Overeem would be too god damn slow to get up, and by the time he stands halfway up he'll get taken down again.


----------



## Rastaman (Feb 25, 2010)

If Lesnar turtled up after getting punched by Cain, then imagine what he would do if he got socked by Overeem, or took a knee to the dome...

Overeem by annihilation in round 1.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

limba said:


> 2 scenarios:
> 1. Overeem knees Brock and either KO's him straight away or he sends Brock down and then does pounds him till Brock goes into "fetus mode" (just like Overeem vs Rogers)
> 
> 2. Overeem sinks in a guillotine and fight is over
> ...


He sends Brock down? Yeah I will bet you a $100 that never happens. Brett Rogers is a sloppy brawler with heavy hands Brock is a heavily decorated wrestler who spends a considerable amount of time training with big strong wrestlers. Your gonna need some serious wrestling skills to be able to counter Brock's TD's and Overeem has shown absolutely nothing that would give us any kind of indication he could do that. Your comparing somebody taking down Dan Hardy and using it to prove they could take down GSP. Using Rogers to prove he could out grapple Lesnar is nothing short of absurd.


----------



## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

420atalon said:


> Lesnar runs forward. Grabs Overeem, throws him to the ground. Jumps on top and hammers Overeem either unconcious or enough to get into a position to submit him from.
> 
> Pretty much the exact same way as the Cain fight would have gone if Cain had been unable to stand back up right away.
> 
> ...


I would have to kindly disagree! Infact.. i disagree so much.. i have to add another '*!*' !

Brock is a newcomer to MMA .. he is just learning the ropes.. i have and always will give him props for being the athlete that he is.. He came from WWE .. where it was all about Roids and Showmanship.. which is part of his problem.. he was never exposed to REAL punches to the face.. 

Alistair on the other hand.. has been fighting professionally since his early 20s .. he fought whoever .. whenever ! Take a look at his record and you'll see it's a list of Who's Who in MMA .. He has gone through some WARS with the best of them .. Infact.. he was a scrawny little kid learning the ropes.. he was still wet behind the ears.. so to speak .. he basically grew up in MMA.. he is a real fighter .. he lives MMA .. 






I am so confident Alistair Overeem would DESTROY Brock Lesnar.. 
that if and when this fight should ever take place and Alistair is NOT the winner.. 
i will vow to never return here !


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> What are you basing this on? Mir has a proven track record of being able to work from his back. What does Overeem have? When has he shown he can do anything from his back? Even name a solid grappler that Overeem has beat? Overeem has been submitting and KO'ing a bunch of strikers for years. Fujita is arguably the best grappler he has ever beaten. Your making some pretty big assumptions based on nothing.


My assumptions are based on Overeem having 44 fights under his belt so my guess is he knows what he is doing. Carwin also didn't use any amazing Wrestling technique and was able to stop Brocks takedown. The shots Brock used in the fight with Cain were not ANYTHING spectacular. If he peppers Brock with punches then Brocks takedowns become average at best and basic TDD knowledge with strength is enough to stop the takedowns. Overeem strength is why i think Brock will not be able to keep him down. I also think he would work on this exact position quiet a bit and have no problem being able to find a way out. These are assumptions im making on watching Brock fight. 

Il be honest with you Toxic. I dont like the tone in your post that much, so i wont be continuing this. Discussions with you have a track record of becoming heated arguments which i dont come here to have anymore. I feel pretty confident in my opinion of this fight so i doubt anything you say could change that.

Continue people, love to hear everyone's opinion on how the fight would play out AND how your opinion has changed from PREcain fight to post.


----------



## Saenchai (Mar 11, 2010)

I don't know it's hard to say but one thing is for sure, Overeem's wrestling is nowhere near Cain's wrestling so his takedown defense is weaker, he is stronger then Cain but also slower so he couldn't get back up so fast as Cain did in case he got thrown down, and if he'd get taken down Brock would win. However, if Brock decided to brawl with him Overeem would knock him out in less then a minute.


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Saenchai said:


> I don't know it's hard to say but one thing is for sure, Overeem's wrestling is nowhere near Cain's wrestling so his takedown defense is weaker, he is stronger then Cain but also slower so he couldn't get back up so fast as Cain did in case he got thrown down, and if he'd get taken down Brock would win. However, if Brock decided to brawl with him Overeem would knock him out in less then a minute.


Lol
Well i dont agree with anything you said really but i can tell you that Brock wont brawl with him. Brock has no confidence in his stand-up that he is more likely to prematurely shoot in then he is to stand and brawl. If what you say is true then i guarantee you Brock would win because there is no way Brock could get into some kind of Brawl mode with Overeem.


----------



## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

Saenchai said:


> I don't know it's hard to say but one thing is for sure, Overeem's wrestling is nowhere near Cain's wrestling so his takedown defense is weaker, he is stronger then Cain but also slower so he couldn't get back up so fast as Cain did in case he got thrown down, and if he'd get taken down Brock would win. However, if Brock decided to brawl with him Overeem would knock him out in less then a minute.


you think Overeem has never experienced a GNP fighter? he has been fighting professionally since 1999 ! LoL !

infact.. he fights over in Japan frequently .. those Japanese fighters love Tae Kwon Do, JJ, etc .. 

He fought in Pride.. where the rules were closer to Vale Tudo.. and if you're not good off your back.. you're done ! 

You should view some of his fights .. and there are lots of them .. so that will probably take you a while


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> My assumptions are based on Overeem having 44 fights under his belt so my guess is he knows what he is doing. Carwin also didn't use any amazing Wrestling technique and was able to stop Brocks takedown. The shots Brock also used in the fight with Cain were not ANYTHING spectacular. If pepper Brock with punches then his takedowns are average at best and basic TDD knowledge with strength is enough to stop the takedowns. Overeem strength is why i think Brock will not be able to keep him down. I also think he would work on this exact position quiet a bit and have no problem being able to find a way out. These are assumptions im making on watching Brock fight.
> 
> Il be honest with you Toxic. I dont like the tone in your post that much, so i wont be continuing this. Discussions with you have a track record of becoming heated arguments which i dont come here to have anymore. I feel pretty confident in my opinion of this fight so i doubt anything you say could change that.
> 
> Continue people, love to hear everyone's opinion on how the fight would play out AND how your opinion has changed from PREcain fight to post.


I am not trying to offend you or anything like that and honestly apologize if you took it wrong. I simply was challenging you to back up your statement that I feel is questionable. 

I question what people mean by "wrestling technique". Every wrestler just like any boxer or grappler kind of puts things together himself that work for him. If you think that years of wrestling had nothing to do with Carwin defending Brock's shot your just IMO being nieve. Your basically implying Bob Sapp could defend Lesnar's TD. The fact that Overeem has never in his career faced a wrestler and has struggled off his back indicate that IMO Brock can take advantage of untested areas of Overeems game. The truth is Overeem has had almost all his success in MMA against Strikers. Brock fought two strikers in Carwin and Herring and beat them both. He fought two guys who had good wrestling and they both showed holes in his striking. Thing is it was there wrestling that allowed them to show those wholes not there striking. Overeem has shown a great ability to strike but having never fought or to my knowledge even trained with a good wrestler never mind anybody even remotely on Lesnar's level I fail to see how people can state that he would have an ability to defend the TD. He is an elite striker and could very well catch Lesnar but what possible justification anybody can use to say that the wrestling aspect of this fight is anything but all Lesnar is beyond me.


----------



## astrallite (Mar 14, 2010)

Brock and Overeem's wifes need to get into a mud wrestling contest.


----------



## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Carwin and Cain are both great wrestlers, Overeem is not. It is a matter of who catches who first. Does Overeem strike first or does Lesnar get a hold of him. I have no doubt that Lesnar can take Overeem down, I also have no doubt Overeem is capable of KO'ing Lesnar striking. My bet is donkey kong smash based on the fact that I can't even think of a single good wrestler that Overeem has ever fought never mind one that you could use as any indication he could stop a Lesnar TD.


:thumbsup:

Agreed.


----------



## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

Fine Wine said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Agreed.



what do you agree with ? lol

you do realize he has *17 Submission Wins* ? but yet you claim he has no ground game ? lol


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

brock shoots and eats a knee, he then wilts and overeem finishes him.


----------



## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

I don't see Brock beating Overeem, not after what Cain did to him at least. 

Overeem's striking will keep Lesnar at bay, if it hits the ground I think Overeem is strong enough to submit Brock, but I also think he's strong enough to get back to his feet.


----------



## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Overeem's strength










But on topic



















Cain is a great wrestler and a very technical fighter and Lesnar picked him up easily and took him down. If Lesnar hadn't of gotten greedy in the 2nd clip and went straight for the guard pass the fight may have ended differently.

Brock's standup isn't near as much of joke as people make it to be as well. Go watch the Cain fight again up until Cain takes Lesnar down. Lesnar hit Cain with a couple pretty good shots and was very close to catching him with a flying knee.

I still think Lesnar can beat Velasquez. He was too impatient in that fight and got frustrated/gave up when his methods didn't instantly win him the fight. If he had kept up the clinch game and worked more GNP before looking for the pass this fight could have been very different.

Against Overeem Lesnar will just bull rush after bull rush and clinch against the cage. Overeem would have to KO Lesnar early which is possible although imo unlikely.


----------



## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

RudeBoySes said:


> what do you agree with ? lol
> 
> you do realize he has *17 Submission Wins* ? but yet you claim he has no ground game ? lol


I agree that Brock gets knocked out quick smart, or he bulls Reem to the ground and hammer fists him out of there.

Reem has to be one of the most over-hyped fighters, let alone heavies in the world. He has beaten pretty much 0 top heavies, hasn't shown any ability to wrestle even against that competition. He has lethal striking and looks incredible doing it, but that doesn't translate to a win over Brock. Both are over-hyped in my opinion, both very one dimensional, yet I realise they both have HUGE fan followings (hence why they are over-hyped), yet I can see why as I greatly enjoy watching both fight. Just trying to be neutral here.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

frank mir stuffed brocks TD and couldn't get cro cop down.

overeem dumped him with ease.


----------



## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

^ Has Mir ever taken any one down succesfully without maybe pulling guard?


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

I dont see this fight happening but Id take Brock.


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

DEspite being a huge Overeem fan I still think Brock has a decent chance of getting one takedown. And sometimes one take down is all it takes.

Regardless I would still take Overeem tko round 1.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

RudeBoySes said:


> you think Overeem has never experienced a GNP fighter? he has been fighting professionally since 1999 ! LoL !
> 
> infact.. he fights over in Japan frequently .. those Japanese fighters love Tae Kwon Do, JJ, etc ..
> 
> ...


Go take a look at Overeem's record. He has never fought a even remotely relevant GnP fighter. The level of wrestling on average in Japan is far below the level of wrestling in the US. Overeem's wins are practically entirely over strikers, the guy has an amazing amount of fights against stand up fighters. Taking a critical look at his past opponents is almost mind boggling considering how long he has been fighting and how many fights he has had. While there are few wrestlers fighting in Japan and even during Pride outside guys like Randleman and Coleman there were few wrestlers. Chuck Liddell is the best wrestler that Alistair Overeem has ever fought. Alistair Overeem is a great striker and has a solid submission game but that is all he has ever proven. I would be extremely surprised if Alistair had any answer for a Lesnar TD. I find it hard to believe a guy who has grappled with an elite wresler would be prepared to deal with that caliber of a wrestler.


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Go take a look at Overeem's record. He has never fought a even remotely relevant GnP fighter. The level of wrestling on average in Japan is far below the level of wrestling in the US. Overeem's wins are practically entirely over strikers, the guy has an amazing amount of fights against stand up fighters. Taking a critical look at his past opponents is almost mind boggling considering how long he has been fighting and how many fights he has had. While there are few wrestlers fighting in Japan and even during Pride outside guys like Randleman and Coleman there were few wrestlers. Chuck Liddell is the best wrestler that Alistair Overeem has ever fought. Alistair Overeem is a great striker and has a solid submission game but that is all he has ever proven. I would be extremely surprised if Alistair had any answer for a Lesnar TD. I find it hard to believe a guy who has grappled with an elite wresler would be prepared to deal with that caliber of a wrestler.


Uh, he eats horse meat bra. Horse meat > wrasslin.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Ape City said:


> Uh, he eats horse meat bra. Horse meat > wrasslin.


I submit Cote vs Lawlor as proof that is not true. In fact it may prove its counterproductive.


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Perhaps the brief laps in horse meat ingestion led to prolonged issued that are only surfacing now.

I prescribe Cote to ten times the dose of horse meat, daily!

Seriously though I forgot about that clip. Very weird that horse meat is illegal in the USA. Why not ban lamb too? I dunno. I don't like horse meat-it has no fat- but I do not understand why anyone would ban it it is healthy from my understanding.


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> I'm 99.99999 percent certain Overeem would dismantle Brock within the first round. Maybe with in the first minute of the first round.
> 
> People dont seem to realise just how damn strong Overeem is. He is stronger than Brock, yes, believe it. When Carwin stuffed Brocks td's there was actually very little wrestling involved. He managed to stuff Brocks td's in that first round with mainly his size and strength. Cain neutralised Brocks wrestling with pure technique.
> 
> ...


Overeem isn't a world class wrestler like Cain, or even a very good one like Carwin.

Overeem's wrestling is actually pretty poor.

Chuck took him down.


----------



## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

Toxic said:


> Carwin and Cain are both great wrestlers, Overeem is not. It is a matter of who catches who first. Does Overeem strike first or does Lesnar get a hold of him. I have no doubt that Lesnar can take Overeem down, I also have no doubt Overeem is capable of KO'ing Lesnar striking. My bet is donkey kong smash based on the fact that I can't even think of a single good wrestler that Overeem has ever fought never mind one that you could use as any indication he could stop a Lesnar TD.


...Well put. Styles make fights...period. Lesnar, Carwin and Cain have serious wrestling pedigrees that would be a problem for him. I think Cain would wipe the floor with Overeem. Besides, he's not competeing in the UFC and until he proves himself against Fedor's powerful *****/groundgame or Werdum's sick Jiu Jitsu that beat him once already, Overeem still has some proving to do...


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> Overeem isn't a world class wrestler like Cain, or even a very good one like Carwin.
> 
> Overeem's wrestling is actually pretty poor.
> 
> Chuck took him down.


It probably wouldn't have made a difference, because size =/= TDD, but Chuck took this guy down:










as opposed to












In all honesty though i bet Chuck could still get him down at least once.


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Size =/= TDD, as you said.

So that was relatively irrelevent.

Size is a benefit to TDD assuming you are a top-tier wrestler. Otherwise you'll just get taken down like Nog did to all the giants he faced.




RudeBoySes said:


> what do you agree with ? lol
> 
> you do realize he has *17 Submission Wins* ? but yet you claim he has no ground game ? lol


:laugh:

"Who's who?"

More like "Who's that?"


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Double post, please delete.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

The minute he connects on Lesnar that fight would become a one sided beatdown.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> Overeem isn't a world class wrestler like Cain, or even a very good one like Carwin.
> 
> Overeem's wrestling is actually pretty poor.
> 
> *Chuck took him down*.



chucks a good wrestler and carwin isn't very good at all.


----------



## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...Cain is much smaller than Lesnar and he pulled off an easy single-leg TD on Brock, got his back and pounded him. Cain again like Fedor, has proven most of the time technique trumps size & power...


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Lesnar haters are so funny. 

From here on in I will refer to Lesnar Haters as LH's.


LH's on Brock vs Cain

"Size doesn't matter its all about technique"

LH's on Overeem vs Brock

"Overeem will be able to stuff brocks TD's due to sheer size"

Somebody is trying to have there cake and eat it to.


----------



## Fard (Nov 5, 2010)

There's always a possibility that Brock takes Overeem down and Overeem will be unable to get up due to Brock's excellent top control.

However, I just don't see Brock winning this any other way, while Overeem has various options.

Brock lacks one essential skill that most fighters gain throughout their amateur careers: It's how to take a shot. Don't get me wrong, he took (blocked) most of Carwins shots and still managed to come back and submit him, I give him huge credit for that. However, he seemed to run away / close his eyes / panic whenever someone connected on him recently.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Toxic said:


> I submit Cote vs Lawlor as proof that is not true. In fact it may prove its counterproductive.


I ******* love this vid. just his accent makes it so funny

best season of TUF by far.


----------



## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

Im with Toxic on this.

If I look honestly on the fights of Reem and Brock, I see Brock GnP Reem.

There is some chance that Reem with hit Brock before takedown and then he could win the fight.

More likely scenario will be Brock/Mir 2 copy.

Im really like opposite of beeing Brock fan but I must admit that he has some really strong areas in MMA game(wrestling,strength,size). And styles makes fights.

Just watch the prefight interview with Cormier. He knew that when you face Brock, you eventualy end on your back. You MUST be able to get up. I honestly dont see Overeem fight of his back effectively and get up from under Brock.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

"Brock via donkey Kong punches early!!!"

"Brocks top control is outstanding, he controlled Mir!!!" 

"Overeem is bad from his back!!!"

lol, its great to see the Brock hype still in full force.

As some one mentioned earlier, the likes of Cain, Overeem and JDS are simply on another level, another ******* level from the likes of Brock and Carwin, it isnt even comparable. Its amazing how you guys still cant seem to see it though.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Carwin was able to stop Brock's Takedowns with ease guys.. and was able to get back up underneath the Monster.

Overeem is ten times the athlet, Carwin is! He can stuff does shots and I am 100% sure he can get back up. 

He's not Frank Mir. Frank Mir must be the most unathletic guy in MMA today. 

Herring, Randy, Carwin and Cain managed to get back up.. only Frank "Slug" Mir wasn't able to.

Thats not a indicate on how well Overeem would do!


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

BobbyCooper said:


> Carwin was able to stop Brock's Takedowns with ease guys.. and was able to get back up underneath the Monster.
> 
> Overeem is ten times the athlet, Carwin is! He can stuff does shots and I am 100% sure he can get back up.
> 
> ...


lol its incredible that people cant see Overeems raw talent, athleticism and skill.

Shane Carwin doesnt posses half the talent Alistair has, he doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence! Because he simply isnt on the same level. Overeem is a complete different breed of fighter, just like Mr Velasquez.

I guess because Brock controlled Muur from the top, he will have an easy time controlling Overeem. Yea.


----------



## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> lol its incredible that people cant see Overeems raw talent, athleticism and skill.
> 
> Shane Carwin doesnt posses half the talent Alistair has, he doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence! Because he simply isnt on the same level. Overeem is a complete different breed of fighter, just like Mr Velasquez.
> 
> I guess because Brock controlled Muur from the top, he will have an easy time controlling Overeem. Yea.


You are obviously on Overeem hypetrain.. Look at his HW wins..

Only fighters with some skill arguably: Bruntello, Rogers, Fujita. Others were just mediocore at best!

Ok he compete in K-1 level of striking. Props for that. As someone mentioned before. He would **** Lesnar as a child in striking match.But Lesnar is just on another level of wrestling. 

Is that hard for you to vision Lesnar GNP Overeem? "Horsemeat" will not make your wrestling skills better.


Anyway I dont argue that Overeem is amazing fighter. Top of the food chain. But Lesnar is really bad matchup for him.


----------



## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Toxic said:


> He sends Brock down? Yeah I will bet you a $100 that never happens. Brett Rogers is a sloppy brawler with heavy hands Brock is a heavily decorated wrestler who spends a considerable amount of time training with big strong wrestlers. Your gonna need some serious wrestling skills to be able to counter Brock's TD's and Overeem has shown absolutely nothing that would give us any kind of indication he could do that. Your comparing somebody taking down Dan Hardy and using it to prove they could take down GSP. Using Rogers to prove he could out grapple Lesnar is nothing short of absurd.





Toxic said:


> Lesnar haters are so funny.
> 
> From here on in I will refer to Lesnar Haters as LH's.
> 
> ...


First of all. I am not a LH I actually like the guy And i give him a lot of credit and respect for the simple fact that he is a warrior, no matter what others say.
In every fight he entered, he knew his opponent was more skilled than he is, and more experienced. He knew he had to compensate this somehow. He is still young in MMA, and yet he has accomplished things others havent's in their entire career. For that - respect.
On the subject - It it my honest opinion, that Lesnar has been badly exposed against Carwin. He can't take a punch. Point! His stand-up game is non-existant, otherwise he wouldn't be so desperate to take all of his opponents down and pound him. And i don't blame him. Cain beat him because he succedeed where Carwin failed - patience and stamina. Carwin gassed so bad, even Miguel Torres would have taken him down that second round.
Overeem is miles ahead of Brock regarding the stand-up! Once he would connect, i see Brock doing the same thing he did in his fight against Carwin and Cain: covering. And Overeem finnishing.
If Brock would take Overeem down, i don't see him doing his donkey-kong-pounding on Overeem. No way. And Brock submitting Overeem!!! That's hilarious! 



astrallite said:


> Overeem has take down defense? Even if he is stronger than Carwin in some imaginary universe, *he's not an NCAA DII wrestling champion* and does not have the ability to stop Brocks takedown.


Who cares!?!
It seems as though, this is all that matters lately! Being an ex-NCCA wrestling champion or any kind of ex-wrestling champ.
This isn't wrestling. This is MMA!! You know??...You are allowed to throw punches, knees, kicks and elbows in an effort to hurt the other fighter. A thing Overeem is quite good at. And Lesnar sucks in this department.




420atalon said:


> *Brock's standup isn't near as much of joke as people make it to be as well.*


Against Fighters like Cain, Overeem, Carwin and JDS, his standup is a joke! No doubt! Once he gets hit he runs and covers up like a turtle. Because he doesn't know how to react after being badly rocked.
Cain was in huge trouble against Kongo, after being rocked, but he reacted perfectly. That's the difference!



420atalon said:


> I still think Lesnar can beat Velasquez. He was too impatient in that fight and got frustrated/gave up when his methods didn't instantly win him the fight. If he had kept up the clinch game and worked more GNP before looking for the pass this fight could have been very different.


He pretty much gave up against Carwin. 
Carwin with a bit of patience and a gas tank would have become champion that night.



BobbyCooper said:


> Carwin was able to stop Brock's Takedowns with ease guys.. and was able to get back up underneath the Monster.
> Overeem is ten times the athlet, Carwin is! He can stuff does shots and I am 100% sure he can get back up.
> He's not Frank Mir. Frank Mir must be *the most unathletic guy in MMA today*.
> Herring, Randy, Carwin and Cain managed to get back up.. only Frank "Slug" Mir wasn't able to.
> Thats not a indicate on how well Overeem would do!


Good point Bobby! :thumbsup:



_RIVAL_ said:


> The minute he connects on Lesnar that fight would become a one sided beatdown.


*Best post!* :thumbsup:


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Atilak said:


> You are obviously on Overeem hypetrain.. Look at his HW wins..
> 
> Only fighters with some skill arguably: Bruntello, Rogers, Fujita. Others were just mediocore at best!
> 
> ...


I, am on the hype train for any fighter i believe to be supremely skilled. That includes Alistair Overeem, Cain Velasquez, Jon Jones amongst others.

I do not think Brock is that skilled as a fighter at all. Hes incredibly one dimensional and actually has the very worst striking defense in the sport of MMA, thats quite a statement, but i think its true. I dont think i have ever seen a championship calibre fighter react the way Brock has to getting hit. Spinning and cart wheeling across the octagon like it was nobody's business.

"props to that" lol. Competing at the highest level in both MMA and kickboxing is actually incredible, remarkable, overeem doesnt get even half the credit he deserves for this accomplishment alone. He is a prodigy.

I bet many people on this forum would be giving JDS a much better chance than they are giving overeem against Brock. When Overeem is a better striker and is more well rounded than JDS.

The Reem has the best striking in the HW division by a mile and on top of that hes also very good in all other areas.I dont judge fighters from their records of opponents, i judge them from their skillsets and performances in the ring. This isnt frank mir or shane carwin we are talking about here, overeem is a different animal all together.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> Carwin was able to stop Brock's Takedowns with ease guys.. and was able to get back up underneath the Monster.
> 
> Overeem is ten times the athlet, Carwin is! He can stuff does shots and I am 100% sure he can get back up.
> 
> ...


You may be right but lets be honest in the fact hat due to Lesnar's inexperience he is or at least at that point in his career was making monstrous improvements each time out and the Mir fight was the first real time Lesnar showed a disciplined top game utilizing wrist control and really working to shut down the guy on the bottom. 


Overeem is 10X the athlete Carwin is? You know what I would have and still would make the argument that Lesnar is 20X the athlete Cain is. How'd that work out? 

Look at the Reems record and be honest with yourself. You will see that almost all of his fights have been against strikers. Practically his entire career. No a single even semi notable fighter who was a grappler outside Werdum and Arona which he lost both. I guess you could argue Little Nog but again the Reem lost. If your honest with yourself you would see that the fact is most of these guys would play his game.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> I, am on the hype train for any fighter i believe to be supremely skilled. That includes Alistair Overeem, Cain Velasquez, Jon Jones amongst others.
> 
> I do not think Brock is that skilled as a fighter at all. Hes incredibly one dimensional and actually has the very worst striking defense in the sport of MMA, thats quite a statement, but i think its true. I dont think i have ever seen a championship calibre fighter react the way Brock has to getting hit. Spinning and cart wheeling across the octagon like it was nobody's business.
> 
> ...



they do.


----------



## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

My two favourite Heavyweights! I literally think this fight could go with the flip of a coin, if Brock secures the takedown i dont believe, personally, that Allistair would have enough to get back up to his feet. If Brock cannot get the takedown, this fight would become very messy very quickly, and would end with Brock in a pile on the floor. 

The thing is, people talk as though some easy formula has been established in order to beat Brock. Well, in a sense, it has. You have to have good enough wrestling to be able to stuff the Gorilla's takedowns, and good enough striking to put him away. 

The catch is, Brock is an INCREDIBLE wrestler, and an incredible natural athlete. Cain is probably the ONLY guy who possesses the necessary skills to beat Brock. JDS? Overreem? There wrestling just isnt up to par. 

I would be happy to see either come out on top, i admire them both. I just think Brock's wrestling would a bit much for Allistair. 

And to people who discuss Allistair's record, it isnt all about who/when you have fought. Other than Nog Cain hadnt really fought anyone (much less the caliber of fighter Overreem has been facing for the last 10 years) but people saw something in him, an incredible talent. That is what people see in Overreem - natural athleticism, strength, a ground game, and the best HW striking in MMA.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> I bet many people on this forum would be giving JDS a much better chance than they are giving overeem against Brock. When Overeem is a better striker and is more well rounded than JDS.


They do! Good point Mc :thumbsup:

I truly believe Overeem would beat JDS 9 out of 10 times. He could literally fight him in K1 stance.



Toxic said:


> You may be right but lets be honest in the fact hat due to Lesnar's inexperience he is or at least at that point in his career was making monstrous improvements each time out and the Mir fight was the first real time Lesnar showed a disciplined top game utilizing wrist control and really working to shut down the guy on the bottom.
> 
> 
> Overeem is 10X the athlete Carwin is? You know what I would have and still would make the argument that Lesnar is 20X the athlete Cain is. How'd that work out?
> ...


I think Cain is a freakish Athlet Toxic. He moves incredible quick for his size and has endurance like a Robot. Lesnar is nowhere near 20x the Athlet Cain is. 

Cain is a better Athlet then Lesnar in my mind! But that's hard to answer..

Carwin however is only muscle and power. Zero endurance and speed. Just unathletic! 

Overeem didn't really lost to that many ground fighters in his career. He lost to Shogun, Lil Nog, Arona and Werdum (wich was a Kimura from his back). I'm pretty sure Overeem would man handle Werdum these days. It's not really important what happened at 205 in PRIDE Toxic.

Overeem now is a HW, wich is by far the weakest devision in MMA. He competed against the best fighters in the strongest devision and picked up wins. Now he fights in the weakest of all. I am sure his only challenge in the HW devision is Fedor and Cain.. thats it!


----------



## spaulding91 (Sep 23, 2007)

Brocks build, with his large torso and smaller legs begs to be kicked. One Overeem leg kick.....thats how long Brocks chances last in this fight.

People are also forgetting Overeem won the Euro ADCC and world renowned for a very good guillitine.

Also, if you look at Brocks fights he has very bad balance while striking.

He would have to get Reem down immediately. No clinching or anything like that, just a straight takedown. If he doesnt he in a world a hurt cuz hes not lasting long in Overeems world.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Any one that thinks Cain or Overeem arnt that athletic, quite frankly dont know what they're talking about.


----------



## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Carwin and Cain are both great wrestlers, Overeem is not. It is a matter of who catches who first. Does Overeem strike first or does Lesnar get a hold of him. I have no doubt that Lesnar can take Overeem down, I also have no doubt Overeem is capable of KO'ing Lesnar striking. My bet is donkey kong smash based on the fact that I can't even think of a single good wrestler that Overeem has ever fought never mind one that you could use as any indication he could stop a Lesnar TD.


This exactly. Brock took Cain down 1-2 times in their fight but couldn't hold him there so early because Cain is a very good wrestler. If he can take Cain down, he surely can take Overeem down. It would be an easy fight for Overeem if he could avoid being taken down, which i don't see him doing.

Really a 50-50 fight IMO.


----------



## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

BobbyCooper said:


> Overeem didn't really lost to that many ground fighters in his career. He lost to Shogun, Lil Nog, Arona and Werdum (wich was a Kimura from his back). I'm pretty sure Overeem would man handle Werdum these days. It's not really important what happened at 205 in PRIDE Toxic.


Shogun took him down and knocked him out again in 2007. Shogun hardly has the best takedowns around and if he could get Overeem down, so can Brock.


----------



## SeanY (Oct 24, 2010)

Thing about Brock his, his ground game isn't all that great. He has a great takedown, but he often rushes for position rather than control, that is what let Cain back up to his feet so easily. If Brock applied his weight more, and controlled his oppenent, pick his shots and advance when necessary, then yes, his ground game would be alot more dangerous. Ubereem's ground game is VERY good. He has some good submissions, and is very strong.

I think Overeem would have NO problem taking on the current Brock Lesnar. Brock is a one trick pony, he got exposed BADLY by Cain, and I can't see any difference is Overeem were to fight him. Overeem's standup is THE best at HW, and his TD defence is also world class, he is so strong, it's solid to take him down.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

aerius said:


> Shogun took him down and knocked him out again in 2007. Shogun hardly has the best takedowns around and if he could get Overeem down, so can Brock.


after he did what he always did at LHW and gass after 3 minutes


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

aerius said:


> Shogun took him down and knocked him out again in 2007. Shogun hardly has the best takedowns around and if he could get Overeem down, so can Brock.





guy incognito said:


> after he did what he always did at LHW and gass after 3 minutes


This^^

He had to drain himself every time he fought aerius. And still competed against arguably the best fighter on the planet right now in Shogun Rua. Plus Shogun has good Takedown as far as I know.

This is so much more of a achievement if you consider how well he did against guys like Shogun, Chuck, Vitor and so on than anything else.

Now he fights in HW.. a devision full of cans and arguably still by far the weakest in MMA. 

Overeem vs. Cain/Fedor should be talked about, not Brock!


----------



## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

i dont think Overreem's LHW career is really relevant now. He is a completely different entity - stronger, fitter, literally just better in every area. Plus he has the advantage of not being ridiculously dehydrated every time he fights. The man is in his prime now.


----------



## SeanY (Oct 24, 2010)

Dream-On-101 said:


> i dont think Overreem's LHW career is really relevant now. He is a completely different entity - stronger, fitter, literally just better in every area. Plus he has the advantage of not being ridiculously dehydrated every time he fights. The man is in his prime now.


Dis man speaks of truth. Truth is to be heard here.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Honestly, bringing up Overeems losses as a dehydrated, light heavy weight is about as relevant as bringing up Manny Pacquiao's knock out losses as a dehydrated Flyweight. It holds no weight in an argument.


----------



## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> Honestly, bringing up Overeems losses as a dehydrated, light heavy weight is about as relevant as bringing up Manny Pacquiao's knock out losses as a dehydrated Flyweight. It holds no weight in an argument.


Yes it is. A lot of people judge Overeem based on his Pride performances rather than seeing how much he has evolved over the years.


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Lesnar haters are so funny.
> 
> From here on in I will refer to Lesnar Haters as LH's.
> 
> ...



Something I never understood about that saying: if you only have your cake but not get to eat it, wouldn't that annoying as hell? I mean the saying basically means "they are trying to have it all," but who the hell would be happy looking at cake?

Anyways back on topic. I think it would be a very interesting fight because both men have a tendency to panic when things don't go there way. 

I think if Brock gets hit clean during a take down attempt he will wilt and get beaten down similar to Carwin but the Reem won't gas.

I think if Brock finds his take downs early Overeem will become gunshy.


----------



## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Dream-On-101 said:


> The catch is, Brock is an INCREDIBLE wrestler, and an incredible natural athlete. Cain is probably the ONLY guy who possesses the necessary skills to beat Brock. *JDS? Overreem? There wrestling just isnt up to par. *


Please...stop making this all about wrestling: it's not wrestling, it's *MMA*!!!! = muay thai, boxing, kick-boxing, BJJ, *****, karate, wu-shu.....you know...stuff that Brock isn't really good at, at this moment.



Dream-On-101 said:


> I would be happy to see either come out on top, i admire them both. I just think Brock's wrestling would a bit much for Allistair.


And i think Overeem's stand-up would be way too much for Brock!



Dream-On-101 said:


> And to people who discuss Allistair's record, it isnt all about who/when you have fought. *Other than Nog Cain hadnt really fought anyone (much less the caliber of fighter Overreem has been facing for the last 10 years) but people saw something in him, an incredible talent.* That is what people see in Overreem - natural athleticism, strength, a ground game, and the best HW striking in MMA.


Very nicely said! I can only agree with this!



Rauno said:


> This exactly. Brock took Cain down 1-2 times in their fight but couldn't hold him there so early because Cain is a very good wrestler. *If he can take Cain down, he surely can take Overeem down.* It would be an easy fight for Overeem if he could avoid being taken down, which i don't see him doing.
> 
> Really a 50-50 fight IMO.


Using the same logic: If Carwin and Cain made a fool out of Brock on the feet, so can Overeem. One punch and it's over. That's my prediction.



SeanY said:


> Thing about Brock his, his ground game isn't all that great. He has a great takedown, but he often rushes for position rather than control, that is what let Cain back up to his feet so easily. If Brock applied his weight more, and controlled his oppenent, pick his shots and advance when necessary, then yes, his ground game would be alot more dangerous. Ubereem's ground game is VERY good. He has some good submissions, and is very strong.
> 
> *I think Overeem would have NO problem taking on the current Brock Lesnar.* Brock is a one trick pony, he got exposed BADLY by Cain, and I can't see any difference is Overeem were to fight him. Overeem's standup is THE best at HW, and his TD defence is also world class, he is so strong, it's solid to take him down.


I agree.



aerius said:


> Shogun took him down and knocked him out again in 2007. Shogun hardly has the best takedowns around and if he could get Overeem down, so can Brock.


That Overeem is dead!!!! Why can't some people understand this?!
Overeem 2010 version is a 250 lbs + HW monster. The Overeem that lost to Shogun was a LHW - Today's Overeem would literally kill that Overeem inside a minute.


----------



## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

What is all this nonsense about athleticism? Athleticism has NOTHING to do with stopping takedowns. Athleticism aids in performing skills and techniques better/longer, but is not a fight decider.

Who's the better athlete - Jim Thorpe or Kimbo Slice? Jimmy is, and he's not even a modern-day athlete. Who'd win in a fight? I rest my case.

The reason Carwin stopped Lesnar's takedown attempt was because he is a high caliber wrestler and actually knows a thing or two about takedowns and stopping takedowns. He still would have stuffed it if he was 40lbs lighter.

The reason Cain got up from Brock's TD was not because of 'athleticism', it was because he's a wrestler too and he had been training that exact thing for MONTHS. Little thing called technique...

What makes Overeem so athletic anyway? Where are the stats that say he is actually stronger than Lesnar and Carwin?

This match is striker vs ground-fighter, advantage Overeem because the fight of course starts on the feet. How long it stays there depends on both guy's strategies for dealing with the things their opponent specializes in:

- How will Overeem keep Brock at distance but do damage, and not leave himself open for a TD?

- How will Brock avoid Alistair's striking and set up a TD?

Brock looks uncomfortable and vulnerable on the feet, and a lot of people form their opinion of him from this. On the ground however he is pure, unrelenting confidence (except when he's getting GnP'd) and totally dominating. It's like watching two different fighters. When Brock takes his time, has a plan and paces himself, he can get anyone down and beat anyone up on the floor.

Overeem is a lethal striker, but when fighting Lesnar it doesn't really matter if you are pretty good or absolutely incredible, 9/10 times you'll still outstrike him and he won't like getting hit by you. It's whether you can do that and stop him before it turns into a ground war.


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> They do! Good point Mc :thumbsup:
> 
> I truly believe Overeem would beat JDS 9 out of 10 times. He could literally fight him in K1 stance.


JDS vs. Overeem....omg:












BobbyCooper said:


> I think Cain is a freakish Athlet Toxic. He moves incredible quick for his size and has endurance like a Robot. Lesnar is nowhere near 20x the Athlet Cain is.
> 
> Cain is a better Athlet then Lesnar in my mind! But that's hard to answer..
> 
> ...


I agree with Bobby that Cain is clearly a great athlete. I'm not gonna start tossing out numbers because in the end it is subjective who is the better athlete. But clearly in my mind both Cain and Brock are great athletes.

As for Carwin I now put him in the unproven category. If it wasn't for the fact he had never made it to the second round in any fights before Lesnar we might have evidence to call it a fluke. All I can consider now ist he fact he gassed from punching Lesnar in the face, which isn't impressive.

As a huge Overeem fan I would love to ignore the blemishes and the long list of strikers he has fought, but they are there. Regardless, I think what you see when you look at Overeem's record is a young fighter trying to find where he fits in the game. 

One random point I like to toss out though: Overeem has never won a fight by decision ever. He is consistantly one of the most exciting fighters in the world to watch, in my opinion, and that is why I love watching him fight so much.

And good point about the HW division, Bobby. It is by far the weakest division in terms of talent and therefore some of his more recent fights end up being against bums like Thompson.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

SM33 said:


> What is all this nonsense about athleticism? Athleticism has NOTHING to do with stopping takedowns. Athleticism aids in performing skills and techniques better/longer, but is not a fight decider.
> 
> Who's the better athlete - Jim Thorpe or Kimbo Slice? Jimmy is, and he's not even a modern-day athlete. Who'd win in a fight? I rest my case.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

limba said:


> Please...stop making this all about wrestling: it's not wrestling, it's *MMA*!!!! = muay thai, boxing, kick-boxing, BJJ, *****, karate, wu-shu.....you know...stuff that Brock isn't really good at, at this moment.
> 
> 
> 
> And i think Overeem's stand-up would be way too much for Brock!


The problem is, in instances where one fighter is substantially better at wrestling, and has the desire to take it to the ground, then it DOES become all about wrestling. IF Brock can take down Overreem and keep him there, which is what i believe he would be able to do with his superior wrestling, then Overreems (obviously) superior standup skills are rendered useless.


----------



## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Dream-On-101 said:


> i dont think Overreem's LHW career is really relevant now. He is a completely different entity - stronger, fitter, literally just better in every area. Plus he has the advantage of not being ridiculously dehydrated every time he fights. The man is in his prime now.


Stronger, sure, fitter, that's still up for debate. His longest fight as a HW was a mid 2nd round finish against Buentello followed by the NC against a washed up CroCop. The Buentello fight had a decent pace to it but nothing like the Shogun fights which he lost. Until he gets pushed hard for at least a couple rounds we can't say his gas tank is. I'm not ready to give him credit for "much improved cardio" until I see it.


----------



## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

aerius said:


> Stronger, sure, fitter, that's still up for debate. His longest fight as a HW was a mid 2nd round finish against Buentello followed by the NC against a washed up CroCop. The Buentello fight had a decent pace to it but nothing like the Shogun fights which he lost. Until he gets pushed hard for at least a couple rounds we can't say his gas tank is. I'm not ready to give him credit for "much improved cardio" until I see it.



OK, that is a fair point. I would say that along with his MMA career he has had some fairly fast paced K-1 fights that seem to suggest there is an improvement. One could also read something into the Rogers fight, he manhandled a 265lb man and looked like he barely broke a sweat. 

But, you are correct, i would like to see his cardio thoroughly tested.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Overeem went from underrated to extremely overrated in a night, but its not the Brock hate its Overeem's skill that did it, lol.

He's a good fighter but he's not on another level than Brock in ability or skill his skills are just different and to be fair even though Brock didn't win the striking war I was impressed at the shots Cain took I believe one shot stunned him for half a second.

Brock's striking is improving he really needs to work on his bottom control but thats something I expect he will address.

Anyway Overeem could beat Brock but its a fight Brock should win, people need to give up with the idea that wrestling is not a effective way to stop strikers, its the most effective way to beat a striker.

Brocks subdef was good enough to Beat Mir the second time and that shows Brock has not yet peaked at all his skills. If Overeem could get top position he could possible sub Brock but I think Brock can keep top position and stay out of any submission Overeem tossed up.

Overeem has also in the past had his commitment to training brought up and Im not sure thats fair. I know I feel he has underestimated fighters in the past but I dont think he would Brock or Cain or Carwin for that matter.

If I had to pick a top 5 fighter from the UFC that he should beat Id pick Carwin who would go to clinch and get smashed IMO.


----------



## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Overeem clearly has a stand up advantage, but he doesn't have the wrestling to defend a good TD. If Brock put Overeem down like he got Cain down, Overeem isn't springing up to his feet the way Cain did.


----------



## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

slapshot said:


> Overeem went from underrated to extremely overrated in a night, but its not the Brock hate its Overeem's skill that did it, lol.
> 
> He's a good fighter but he's not on another level than Brock in ability or skill his skills are just different and to be fair even though Brock didn't win the striking war I was impressed at the shots Cain took I believe one shot stunned him for half a second.
> 
> ...


The only UFC HW's i see beating Overeem would possibly be Brock and Cain, purely because of their level of wrestling. JDS, Carwin, Mir etc would all most likely try to stand with Overeem, and by doing this, almost certainly would loose. 

I would like to see Overeem v Carwin, purely so we could see the difference between a legitimately great HW striker and a mediocre (at best) one who happens to have sledgehammers for fists.


----------



## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

You guys talk about 'Wrestling' like it's rocket science or the 'allmighty' .. 

There's a reason Wrestling is not a skill trained .. it's because it's not complicated.. anyone in MMA can learn it.. it's common sense.. it's taught in every high school in America .. 

JJ or TKD is the more sophisticated art form .. 

I find it absurd that people talk about Wrestling like it's the supreme form of MMA .. lol

And if a person has JJ or TKD Training.. it's more than enough to combat 'Wrastling' .. infact.. JJ is more of a thinking man's artform.. Wrestling is you see it.. it's coming.. JJ .. no.. you have think 2-3 steps ahead.. and what you're seeing in JJ.. is not what's always coming..


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Dream-On-101 said:


> I would like to see Overeem v Carwin, purely so we could see the difference between a legitimately great HW striker and a mediocre (at best) one who happens to have sledgehammers for fists.



Im not convinced overeems chin and hands are as good as you feel they are. Brett Rogers is the toughest guy he's fought in a long time, you have to go back to Rua to find a real threat and lets be honest Brett is not on the same level as the top UFC heavyweights and I think Overeem would win but I cant say Id be shocked if Carwin was able to put him out with a clean shot in a exchange early in the fight.

Nog beat him twice and you could argue that he was in his prime but nobody thought nogs career had entered its twilight until he fought in the UFC.




RudeBoySes said:


> You guys talk about 'Wrestling' like it's rocket science or the 'allmighty' ..


I see more posts discrediting and dismissing wrestling than putting it on a pedestal. Id say the fact that its "taught" and is a popular sport dose nothing to discredit it, can anyone be a UFC champion now that more people are doing mma? If anything the more people that play a sport the harder it will be to be the best at it, more competition, leading into my next point. Fighters like Brock and Cain dont have average wrestling and it takes better than average wrestling to be effective in the cage.

Im not going to argue BJJ vs wrestling but I will ask how well you think the Gracie's straight jits stood up to Matt Hughes's BJJ+ wrestling. To argue that its not a skill or a must have skill for any top fighter is misguided.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

slapshot said:


> Im not convinced overeems chin and hands are as good as you feel they are. Brett Rogers is the toughest guy he's fought in a long time, you have to go back to Rua to find a real threat and lets be honest Brett is not on the same level as the top UFC heavyweights and I think Overeem would win but I cant say Id be shocked if Carwin was able to put him out with a clean shot in a exchange early in the fight.
> 
> Nog beat him twice and you could argue that he was in his prime but nobody thought nogs prime had ended until he fought in the UFC.


205 homie, 205


----------



## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

RudeBoySes said:


> You guys talk about 'Wrestling' like it's rocket science or the 'allmighty' ..
> 
> There's a reason Wrestling is not a skill trained .. it's because it's not complicated.. anyone in MMA can learn it.. it's common sense.. it's taught in every high school in America ..
> 
> ...


Wrestling isn't a skill trained? I get that its common sense to grab people and throw them, just as it is common sense to be able to throw your arms forward for punching and launching a leg forwar for kicking, but then you don't understand how disciplines work by that logic. Kicking and punching are as common sense to me as it gets, so is Muay Thai and TKD not a skill trained in my opinion? According to your logic it would be.

And so what if they teach wrestling in HS, they teach TKD to ten year old kids at local neighborhood dojos, whats your point?

Also, TKD, really? Short of K1, who in the UFC is an "effective" TKD guy, while the list of successful fighters in the UFC with wrestlig as either their foundation or are highly versed in wresting goes something like this:

GSP (champ)
Matt Hughes (champ)
Tito Ortiz (champ)
Brock Lesnar (champ)
Cain Velasquez (champ)
Randy Couture (champ)
Pre full time striker Sean Sherk (champ)
Rashad Evans (champ)
Chuck Lidell: never used it offensively, but had the best TDD (champ)
Jon Jones 
Ryan Bader
Fitch (longest running (#1 contender)
Kos (#1 contender)
Gray Maynard (#1 contender)
Chael Sonnen (#1 contender)
Okami
Nate Marquart

It's common sense to throw your buddy around and roll across the floor trying to out-head lock someone, timing TD's, proper weight distribution for top control, timing TDD, escaping.... It's the timing & speed of execution that separates a good wrestler and a mediocre one. GSP's technique isn't so much superior to other wrestlers as far as his TD goes, it is the most precisioned, well timed TD, combined with speed & power. 

Wreslting is also an international Olympic sport, its not as basic as you might think.

Anyone can throw their leg forward and call it a kick, just like anyone can comprehend how to tackle someone to the ground, but in TKD or any martial art, its the precision of the kick that determines accuracy and form for power, just as a TD has the aspects of precision & timing and form to make it effective. Then you have to know how to handle a body beneath you and keep them from escaping.


----------



## dario03 (Oct 8, 2008)

SM33 said:


> What is all this nonsense about athleticism? Athleticism has NOTHING to do with stopping takedowns. Athleticism aids in performing skills and techniques better/longer, but is not a fight decider.
> 
> Who's the better athlete - Jim Thorpe or Kimbo Slice? Jimmy is, and he's not even a modern-day athlete. Who'd win in a fight? I rest my case.
> 
> ...


I agree this. Ubereem's striking is overkill but we don't know if his wrestling is good enough to stop Brock. You don't need great striking to beat Brock what you need is

1. Decent striking (personally I don't think Carwin's striking is technically that good but he has...)
2. Good Power (Carwin hits hard so it had a affect on Brock where as Brock didn't react to badly to getting hit by Randy because he didn't hit that hard or wasn't hitting the button)
3. Great take down defense or ability to get up quick (big reason why cain won)

Personally I see Brock going for the take down really early (I'm sure every one does) and either getting the take down or catching a knee. If he catches the knee and doesn't get the takedown he'll probably lose. If he gets kneed but gets the take down it could go either way. If he gets the take down and doesn't get kneed he'll probably win. 
I'd give the advantage to Brock. Wrestling decides where the fight goes and just like Ubereem's striking is on another level Brock's wrestling is on another level. Even if Ubereem is stronger like some people are saying it can't be by much and it won't be enough to overcome the wrestling advantage (and I would like to know where this Reem is stronger than Brock is coming from). If Ubereem ever proves to have great or at least really good wrestling then I would give him a huge advantage but for now I say Brock by gnp.



RudeBoySes said:


> You guys talk about 'Wrestling' like it's rocket science or the 'allmighty' ..
> 
> There's a reason Wrestling is not a skill trained .. it's because it's not complicated.. anyone in MMA can learn it.. it's common sense.. it's taught in every high school in America ..
> 
> ...


Ummmm no. 
Anyone can learn any style of fighting and if wrestling was so easy then why do we see guys get out wrestled all the time? You know in a lot of Asian countries they teach tkd types of fighting in schools but I don't recall TKD dominating Pride.
JJ is great but I would take a great wrestler with decent JJ over a great JJ with decent wrestling most of the time. And a great wrestler with decent TKD over a great TKD with decent wrestling everytime.
There is no single part of MMA that is supreme, thats why its MMA. You need to be well rounded but wrestling is a very good thing to have. Wrestling decides where a fight goes and being able to do that lets you keep the fight where you want it.


----------



## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

420atalon said:


> Lesnar runs forward. Shoots for a double leg and Overeem destroys his facial bones with a knee. Brock starts break dancing while the PA Techs play "Sandstorm" over the speakers for a few seconds. Overeem runs forward, catches Lesnar spinning around with a booming right hook. Drops into side control and hits Brock with another huge right (ala Hendo/Bisping) and puts him out cold.


Fixed that.

EDIT:



> JJ is great but *I would take a great wrestler with decent JJ over a great JJ with decent wrestling most of the time.* And a great wrestler with decent TKD over a great TKD with decent wrestling everytime.
> There is no single part of MMA that is supreme, thats why its MMA. You need to be well rounded but wrestling is a very good thing to have. Wrestling decides where a fight goes and being able to do that lets you keep the fight where you want it.


I agree with everything but that, Dario. You may be able to decide where a fight goes with wrestling, but a superior BJJ artist has more options of attack than a wrestler. In wrestling they teach you position... and that's it. In BJJ you leanr HOW to fight off your back, how to mobilize your opponent off of your back, how to sweep from your back and, best of all, how to destroy your opponent from your back and the stuff of your back isn't even HALF of it. This is extremely evident in fights like Demian Maia vs Chael Sonnen, George Sotiropilous vs Joe Stephenson and the like.


Also, TKD is NOT a premier striking art. Sorry but any art that preaches kicking with your feet is horse shit. When you injure yourself by trying to hurt your opponent you're doing something wrong. Muay Thai preaches kicking with YOUR SHINS as they're both harder and much less brittle than the 50+ tiny bones in your feet. Also, TKD's lack of punching skill (mostly just straights and jabs) limit it in big ways as well as it's flashy, unpractical kicks. Yes, there are things from TKD that can be taken into MMA (Denis Siver uses his spinning back kick VERY well), but when faced with things like Muay Thai, Dutch KB and the like, I'd take those over TKD any day.

And before you say I'm ignorant and don't know what I'm saying: My best friend is a 3rd degree in TKD and I've trained with him in it for a couple years before I dropped it for Muay Thai. TKD is, now, a point fighting system. Yes, the moves are powerful and they hit hard, but not much harder than Thai and Thai has the advantage of practitioner longevity as well as better hand skills.


----------



## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

slapshot said:


> I see more posts discrediting and dismissing wrestling than putting it on a pedestal.





VolcomX311 said:


> Wrestling isn't a skill trained? I get that its common sense to grab people and throw them, just as it is common sense to be able to throw your arms forward for punching and launching a leg forwar for kicking, but then you don't understand how disciplines work by that logic. Kicking and punching are as common sense to me as it gets, so is Muay Thai and TKD not a skill trained in my opinion? According to your logic it would be.
> 
> And so what if they teach wrestling in HS, they teach TKD to ten year old kids at local neighborhood dojos, whats your point?
> 
> ...



*Really? because the last 10 or so posts have been*: 
"Overeem's wrestling sucks"
"Overeem has not fought a top notch Wrestler"
etc ..

How anyone can generalize 45 Professional fights is mind boggling .. 

It's as if the only way to argue this point is to give a bio of all 45 opponents on his record.. lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Overeem

*The argument for Alistair losing to Brock is*:
- his wrestling sucks
- he has never fought a top-notch wrestler

*My Response*:
1. What measuring stick are you using to say his wrestling sucks?
2. How can you generalize 45 Matches and say not 1 was a top-notch wrestler?
3. Just because a fighter does not outwardly promote he's a 'Wrestler' does not mean he's not versed in it.. 
4. If a fighter is versed in JJ or BJJ, it's more than sufficient to counter wrestling...

That's my point.. not that Wrestling is crap.. 

My argument is against the people who are making Wrestling into the magic recipe for winning in MMA .. and discounting other forms of MMA like JJ or BJJ ..


----------



## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

This fight looks the same as it did before Brock got owned by Cain. Overeem puts Brock to sleep if Brock throws a single punch or Brock holds Overeem down for five rounds. Overeem is pretty damn strong and is actually pretty decent from his back, so I dont think Brock could manrape him like he did against Mir, but I also dont think Overeem could get back up if he ended up on his back.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

TraMaI said:


> Fixed that.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...


What a horrible horrible troll you are!


----------



## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

RudeBoySes said:


> *Really? because the last 10 or so posts have been*:
> "Overeem's wrestling sucks"
> "Overeem has not fought a top notch Wrestler"
> etc ..
> ...


In that particular post, I wasn't addressing how Alister would match up against Brock, measuring Alister Overeem's efficacy as a fighter, or anything Overeem/Brock specific, I was defending the efficacy of wrestling in MMA. I never mentioned Brock or Alister's name, short of putting Brock on the successful wrestlers list. 

You stated that "wrestling isn't a trained skill," how it's a "common sense" talent, and I tried to rebut with my points of how it absolutely is a trained skill. That's all. My argument is independet of your previous debates with previous posters about the Brock/Alister issue, so your color coordianted outline is irrelevant to what I was arguing.

I don't take issue with people who favor one fighter over another, we all have a valid opinion on that and no fight is guaranteed. I was defending wreslting as a legit discipline and I happen to be a big Alister fan and he's one of my number one guys I want in the UFC, as much as, sometimes more so then Fedor, depending on my mood.


----------



## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

slapshot said:


> What a horrible horrible troll you are!


<3

I would also like to add that, like I said before his fight with Cain, Lesnar's wrestlign is HORRIBLY overrated. He has a power double and then relies on his size to maintain position. The man was a Champ wrestler, yes, but that was 10 years ago and in that 10 years he went to the WWE and the NFL, so real wrestling was obviously not on his mind. His skills have diminished in the art significantly, if you ask me, and Cain exposed it pretty well.


----------



## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

VolcomX311 said:


> how it's a "common sense" talent


*what i meant by 'common sense'*:
With Wrestling, if you see a choke coming, it's coming.

*with JJ or BJJ*:
If you see a choke coming, it may be coming, but it could also be a setup for something else.




VolcomX311 said:


> You stated that "wrestling isn't a trained skill


Let me try and clarify this.. Wrestling is not difficult to learn.. the moves and agendas of Wrestling is quite simple.. 

Now are there different skill levels from training/practice? Of course.. 

I was comparing the fundamentals/ideology of Wrestling to JJ/BJJ. Wrestling is fairly straight forward. BJJ or JJ is more complicated, there are moves to setup moves, it involves more of a mental chess game.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

RudeBoySes said:


> *what i meant by 'common sense'*:
> With Wrestling, if you see a choke coming, it's coming.
> 
> *with JJ or BJJ*:
> ...


My reply still holds true, your post was wrong IMO.



TraMaI said:


> <3
> 
> I would also like to add that, like I said before his fight with Cain, Lesnar's wrestlign is HORRIBLY overrated. He has a power double and then relies on his size to maintain position. The man was a Champ wrestler, yes, but that was 10 years ago and in that 10 years he went to the WWE and the NFL, so real wrestling was obviously not on his mind. His skills have diminished in the art significantly, if you ask me, and Cain exposed it pretty well.


Cain was a elite wrestler himself so I dont see how he exposed Brock other than that Brock dose very poorly from off his back but I think Carwin should get the credit for that, really though Overeem is not Cain and IMO he would have no answer for the takedown. 

Besides Cain sealed that win with striking anything that came after was a result of that including his takedown. I really dont think overeem has the same skills or would have the same opportunity's.

But he dose have good knee strikes, I just think its something Brock would be able to train for and avoid.


----------



## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

slapshot said:


> My reply still holds true, your post was wrong IMO.


i beg to differ

my responses are more educated/well thought out..


----------



## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

RudeBoySes said:


> *what i meant by 'common sense'*:
> With Wrestling, if you see a choke coming, it's coming.
> 
> *with JJ or BJJ*:
> ...


I won't disagree there. BJJ is generally more complicated and more of its sophistication is directly transferable to MMA. 

I wouldn't know which category submission wrestling would fit more predominantly into, wrestling or JJ.


----------



## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

slapshot said:


> Im not convinced overeems chin and hands are as good as you feel they are. Brett Rogers is the toughest guy he's fought in a long time, you have to go back to Rua to find a real threat and lets be honest Brett is not on the same level as the top UFC heavyweights and I think Overeem would win but I cant say Id be shocked if Carwin was able to put him out with a clean shot in a exchange early in the fight.
> 
> Nog beat him twice and you could argue that he was in his prime but nobody thought nogs career had entered its twilight until he fought in the UFC.



I think Overeems standup pedigree is quite clearly a standard above anything else we are seeing in the UFC at this moment. Carwin is of course a legitimate threat to anyone due to the ridiculous power he possesses, but i doubt even he would choose to stand and trade with Overeem. He didnt want to trade with Mir, who whilst having pretty decent standup himself, is hardly in the catagory of Overeem. I think Overeem would dismantle Carwin if the fight stayed purely standing, and Carwin would eventually try to press him against the cage or shoot. Then it becomes a whole different question. Clearly Overeem would have to be wary of Carwins big punches, but the same was said of Rogers (big power, not the best in terms of skill) and we all saw how that one went. 

As for Overeems chin? I suspect he has a decent/good one but at HW pretty much anyone of the big boys can KO the other with a clean shot. Even more so if we are purely discussing the KO Machine that is Shane Carwin.

And finally, i draw basically zero reference from Alistairs 205 days, he is clearly a very different fighter. My judgement on Alistair at HW comes not from his caliber of opponents per se, but in the same way that many judge Jon Jones, Cain or JDS - i assess his tools and skillsets, which are, to be honest, very impressive. Thats why there is a lot of hype around him at the moment.


----------



## dario03 (Oct 8, 2008)

TraMaI said:


> Fixed that.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...


I can respect that. I would still take the wrestler but JJ can prevail. Both have proven that.
But yeah TKD for the most part has never done much in MMA. Couple moves (like the turning back kick Joe Rogan is always going on about) are good but for the most part I would take a wreslter over TKD anytime.


----------



## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

Dream-On-101 said:


> And finally, i draw basically zero reference from Alistairs 205 days, he is clearly a very different fighter. My judgement on Alistair at HW comes not from his caliber of opponents per se, but in the same way that many judge Jon Jones, Cain or JDS - *i assess his tools and skillsets, which are, to be honest, very impressive*. Thats why there is a lot of hype around him at the moment.


*+ 1*

very well put 

Although.. i don't completely dismiss his Pride days.. even back then.. he showed above average skills.. infact.. i think his skill set from his Pride Days would be sufficient to dominate in the UFC today.. 

and to imagine how much time has lapsed/how much he has grown as a fighter/etc .. is what makes me foam at the mouth to see him fight in the UFC .. 

i truly think he has the skill set of an elite MW/LHW in a HW's body ..

In addition.. i do take notice of his past opponents:
*-* Mauricio 'Shogun' Rua (this match took place during Rua's prime)
*-* Nogueira (took place during Nogueira's prime)
*-* Mirko 'CroCop' Filipovic (took place during his prime; when he had the invincibility aura and world-renowned devastating kick )
*-* Mark Hunt (legend in MMA)
*-* Sergei Kharitonov (this dude was sick! but not many have heard of him .. google his fights)
*-* Vitor Belfort (took place during Belfort's prime)
*-* Fabricio Werdum (beat Fedor)
*-* Igor Vovchanchyn (Knockout Artist!)
*-* Chuck Liddell (Hall of Famer)
*-* etc ..

Another reason im a huge fan of Alistair; he fights anyone.. !


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

It was clear even in his Pride losses that The Reem had crazy potential. He had Chuck shooting for take down after take down in that fight, i cant remember the last time some one made Chuck want to shoot in like that.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

RudeBoySes said:


> i beg to differ
> 
> my responses are more educated/well thought out..


Not really you seem to be just a Overeem fanboy and to be honest they are some of the least educated posts in the thread. You obviously feel striking is a more viable part of mma than wrestling VolcomX311 gave very specific rebuttals that you have not in anyway been able to refute with any validity.



Mckeever said:


> It was clear even in his Pride losses that The Reem had crazy potential. He had Chuck shooting for take down after take down in that fight, i cant remember the last time some one made Chuck want to shoot in like that.


I also remember that fight and chuck who is always picked on in this forum for being a sloppy striker knocked his ass out. To say that heavyweights in the UFC are not up to his standard of striking is ignorant there are strikers with just as much technique and more power in the UFC. He's a very good fighter but there is not chance in hell he rolls through the UFC's strikers without a few losses.

Its a endless argument because I dont think he'll move over to the UFC.


----------



## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

That was Chuck in his prime, against a 23 year old Overeem who'd not faced anywhere near that level of competition before. Alistair's striking has improved ten-fold, he's not anywhere near the same fighter as he was in 2003. Back then he was a rangy striker with dangerous knees but not a lot more. He certainly wasn't the top level K-1 striker he is today. The dude has K-1 victories over Badr Hari and Peter Aerts, the dude is legit as they come. No HW's in the world have striking on the level of Alistair Overeem. 



Mckeever said:


> It was clear even in his Pride losses that The Reem had crazy potential. He had Chuck shooting for take down after take down in that fight, i cant remember the last time some one made Chuck want to shoot in like that.


Watched that fight yesterday, was watching the 2003 MW GP on the train back to Uni, and I swear Chuck only shot in once, maybe twice at most. Overeem looked decent, landed 1 really nice knee to the body, was keeping the distance nicely and landing some nice shots. However, it did seem like it was only a matter of time till Chuck caught him. The shot that did the main damage to Overeem was crazy as hell tbf to Alistair though. Chuck used to throw the huge overhand rights fairly regularly, but it's not often he'd connect like that. He threw that punch like a fast bowler delivering a cricket ball, it was mental. As soon as it landed you could tell Alistair was done. His eyes rolled back, his legs left him and with Chuck's killer instinct took over. Crazy fight, was a great way to start the GP!

Overeem is a beast. Every fight of his I've seen has been entertaining. He has a crazy mix of skills too. His wrestling is the only area that lets him down. No-one has Overeem's mix of top tier K-1 striking, a dangerous submission game and athleticism. He's a dangerous proposition for any HW fighter in the world. The way he ragdolled Brett Rogers was remarkable. Fedor beat Rogers, but he didn't beat him in anywhere near as impressive fashion as Ubereem did. Really hope we see him in the UFC at some point. The UFC need to sign England's Top Heavyweight! :thumb02:


----------



## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

slapshot said:


> Not really you are just a Overeem fanboy and to be honest they are some of the least educated posts in the thread. You obviously feel striking is a more viable part of mma than wrestling VolcomX311 gave very specific rebuttals that you have not in anyway been able to refute with any validity.
> 
> 
> I also remember that fight and chuck who is always picked on in this forum for being a sloppy striker knocked his ass out. To say that heavyweights in the UFC are not up to his standard of striking is ignorant there are strikers with just as much technique and more power.
> ...



Name one. Ill go ahead and explain why JDS isnt a better striker then Overeem. First off, all he does is box. The dude rarely throws a kick. Second, his defense is weak. It just isnt as noticable because he is super aggressive. Crocop busted his face up in there fight with good counter striking. So now, feel free to name one striker who is anywhere near Overeems overall striking skill level in the UFC. Overeem has put top notch strikers (not just top notch mma strikers, were talking the best strikers in the world) to sleep, e.x. ben edwards, Badr Hari, Teixera. He kicked the living shit out of Peter Aerts and gave Remy a hell of a fight. Put a one dimensional boxer like JDS in K1 and see him get eaten alive.


----------



## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

Overeem by guillotine pretty early into the 1st round.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

slapshot said:


> Not really you seem to be just a Overeem fanboy and to be honest they are some of the least educated posts in the thread. You obviously feel striking is a more viable part of mma than wrestling VolcomX311 gave very specific rebuttals that you have not in anyway been able to refute with any validity.
> 
> 
> I also remember that fight and chuck who is always picked on in this forum for being a sloppy striker knocked his ass out. To say that heavyweights in the UFC are not up to his standard of striking is ignorant there are strikers with just as much technique and more power in the UFC. He's a very good fighter but there is not chance in hell he rolls through the UFC's strikers without a few losses.
> ...


You are actually just ridiculous.



Danm2501 said:


> That was Chuck in his prime, against a 23 year old Overeem who'd not faced anywhere near that level of competition before. Alistair's striking has improved ten-fold, he's not anywhere near the same fighter as he was in 2003. Back then he was a rangy striker with dangerous knees but not a lot more. He certainly wasn't the top level K-1 striker he is today. The dude has K-1 victories over Badr Hari and Peter Aerts, the dude is legit as they come. No HW's in the world have striking on the level of Alistair Overeem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It has been a while since i watched the fight, but i could swore i remember Chuxk shooting in on reem about two or three times. It looked like reem was tagging him and chuck was shooting in, which is a very rare thing to see Chuck to do. I'll have to watch it again to refresh my memory.


----------



## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Possibly, even though I only watched it yesterday I can't remember too much of it. Chuck may have shot in more than twice, but I don't think he did. Even so, was a great fight. Chuck took some pretty heavy shots from Alistair and kept moving forward. The main thing I remembered from the fight was the huge bomb Chuck landed on Alistair though, that was crazy. GIF time:










Amazed Alistair took the shot as well as he did, that would have turned quite a few guys' lights out completely. Ridiculous punch from Chuck!


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

joshua7789 said:


> Name one. Ill go ahead and explain why JDS isnt a better striker then Overeem. First off, all he does is box. The dude rarely throws a kick. Second, his defense is weak.


JDS is a better striker, it really doesn't matter if he prefers to box what matters is if he can implement his gameplan more effectively that you and IMO JDS and Cain would both be able to outstrike him and other fighters would be able to survive his striking. 



joshua7789 said:


> It just isnt as noticable because he is super aggressive. Crocop busted his face up in there fight with good counter striking. So now, feel free to name one striker who is anywhere near Overeems overall striking skill level in the UFC. Overeem has put top notch strikers (not just top notch mma strikers, were talking the best strikers in the world) to sleep, e.x. ben edwards, Badr Hari, Teixera. He kicked the living shit out of Peter Aerts and gave Remy a hell of a fight. Put a one dimensional boxer like JDS in K1 and see him get eaten alive.


Sorry to brake it to you but this is not K1 and if you would like to look over his record against really good fighters he's lost to just about all of them, he beat Vitor Belfort in 05 but that was some time ago. What other top striker in mma has be beat, who has he beat in the last five years thats wildly considered a top striker? 

Again Im not saying he's a bad fighter but he's not the all powerful striker in mma some are making him out to be. I think he would win a lot of fights in the UFC but as you head to the top 5 I see him Being very competitive but not dominant as his past in MMA has shown.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> You are actually just ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> It has been a while since i watched the fight, but i could swore i remember Chuxk shooting in on reem about two or three times. It looked like reem was tagging him and chuck was shooting in, which is a very rare thing to see Chuck to do. I'll have to watch it again to refresh my memory.


He was hit with a shot that buckled his knees so he went for a takedown.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Did i really just read that Cain Velasquez is a better striker than Overeem?

What ever you're smoking slapshot, i want some.

Also:







THE best highlight video ever.


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

That highlight reel was incredible. WAR REEM!!!!

My fav part is when he knocks out that fool Badr. That dude is a piece of trash.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Did i really just read that Cain Velasquez is a better striker than Overeem?
> 
> What ever you're smoking slapshot, i want some.
> 
> ...


That and this highlight are my favs.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Did i really just read that Cain Velasquez is a better striker than Overeem?
> 
> What ever you're smoking slapshot, i want some.
> 
> ...


I really try to keep from a larger argument with you as you always act like a tool and you let your opinion of a fighters personality influence you but if you want to crown Overeem as your Fedor go ahead but its obvious you like to try to get under peoples skin with your statements, you are free to troll away here I guess.

How dose the video add anything? Ive often stated Overeem is very talented but I dont think its about who's right to you its just about who you can piss off. Im not weak enough in my opinions to care post away.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

slapshot said:


> I really try to keep from a larger argument with you as you always act like a tool and you let your opinion of a fighters personality influence you but if you want to crown Overeem as your Fedor go ahead but its obvious you like to try to get under peoples skin with your statements, you are free to troll away here I guess.
> 
> How dose the video add anything? Ive often stated Overeem is very talented but I dont think its about who's right to you its just about who you can piss off. Im not weak enough in my opinions to care post away.


Hold on a second. Your the guy who thinks Cain Velasquez and JDS are better strikers than Overeem and you are calling me out on trolling?!! How can you have the audacity to come out with that, ridiculous.

I let fighters personalities get the way of my judgement of their skills? No. For the record i think Cain is about as interesting as a ping pong ball and Alistar, he seems a little weird. I actually like Lesnar, he's a funny guy, but i dont let that get in the way of me judging his skills, i see him as an incredibly one dimensional, over rated wrestler. Funny guy though. I judge fighters solely on their skills in the ring/octagon, personality has nothing to do with it.

Im not trying to get under your skin im just pointing out how ridiculously stupid it is to think that Cain Velasquez is a better striker than Alistair Overeem. It's embarrassing that you can even think that and i have no idea what you're actually basing this on. Maybe its UFC fighters bias or maybe its some thing else. 

How does the video add any thing? I posted the video simply because its one of the best highlight videos on youtube i have ever seen. You should be thanking me for posting such an awesome video.

If you could please provide some insight as to why the hell you think Cain Velasquez is a better striker than Overeem, then please, go ahead.


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Did i really just read that Cain Velasquez is a better striker than Overeem?
> 
> What ever you're smoking slapshot, i want some.
> 
> ...


Not even sure who you were responding to... But they probably weren't saying that. Overeem is definitely the best HW striker in all of mma.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

slapshot said:


> *JDS is a better striker*, it really doesn't matter if he prefers to box what matters is if he can implement his gameplan more effectively that you and IMO *JDS and Cain would both be able to outstrike him *and other fighters would be able to survive his striking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





xeberus said:


> Not even sure who you were responding to... But they probably weren't saying that. Overeem is definitely the best HW striker in all of mma.



In bold.

And im the troll.....


----------



## Wandys New Nose (Nov 10, 2010)

*Either could win it...*

Hi all, first post on this forum! Been following MMA since early UFC and Pride. I also train Muay Thai and teach Kick Boxing to Kids ... so love combat sports. Also, dare I say it, I enjoy boxing to!

Anyway in my humble opinion I think this is an awesome fight that can go two ways.

If Brock can get the take down with his rush and bully tactics I think he would beat the Reem. I just dont' think Reem can get back up like Cain and that was the key to their recent fight. Brock was lost once Cain popped back to his feet and started battering him. Brock is about using his weight to position on the ground and beat down.

Standing, Reem is one of the best if not the best HW in MMA. All that K1 will only sharpen his skills. Don't see many MMA fighters competing in those kind of tournaments. No body wants to stand with the him nowadays and I don't blame them!

So if Reem can pop back up or keep it up ... he'll knock Brock out easily and quickly or choke him standing. However, he will get donkey konged if he can't!

Only the reem knows if his TDD has improved enough and what better way to prove it than to fight him!

(Thanks for the welcome rep ahartleyvu, to kind to kind!)


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> In bold.
> 
> And im the troll.....


Having a opinion you dont agree with is not trolling, arguing and insulting people with the specific intent to piss people off is. You taunt other members quite often, its not like I haven't seen you go after other members you yourself said you like to gloat and its easy to see you know exactly what your doing. 

Ive watched Overeem fight for years just like you say you have but I dont think he's the best striker in MMA.



Wandys New Nose said:


> Hi all, first post on this forum! Been following MMA since early UFC and Pride. I also train Muay Thai and teach Kick Boxing to Kids ... so love combat sports. Also, dare I say it, I enjoy boxing to!
> 
> Anyway in my humble opinion I think this is an awesome fight that can go two ways.
> 
> ...



Wandys New Nose, 
Nice post, I think having to defend the td could slow his striking a bit, if Brock can stay away from his knees in the clinch that would go a long way. I like your fight breakdown. I dont think it will be easy to KO Brock wile defending his shot but it definitely could happen.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

slapshot said:


> Having a opinion you dont agree with is not trolling, arguing and insulting people with the specific intent to piss people off is. You taunt other members quite often, its not like I haven't seen you go after other members you yourself said you like to gloat and it easy to see you know exactly what your doing.
> 
> Ive watched Overeem fight for years just like you say you have but I dont think he's the best striker in MMA.


You can have your opinion, but it isnt going to hold much weight if you cant back it up with examples. I dont have any intent to piss people off, i just fail to understand how you can come to the conclusion that Cain Velasquez is a better striker than Overeem. What are you basing this from exactly? His KO win over Nog? Out striking Brock?

Cain has some very good kick boxing skills, especially considering how inexperienced he is, but he simply isnt on Overeems level. We're talking about a guy who has KO'd Badr Hari here, hes not your average MMA kick boxer, he is one of the best kick boxers in the world.


----------



## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

slapshot said:


> Having a opinion you dont agree with is not trolling, arguing and insulting people with the specific intent to piss people off is. You taunt other members quite often, its not like I haven't seen you go after other members you yourself said you like to gloat and its easy to see you know exactly what your doing.
> 
> Ive watched Overeem fight for years just like you say you have but I dont think he's the best striker in MMA.


Dude.. stop crying..

you do it all the time.. 

you criticize people's opinions, and try to use your opinions as facts all the time.. lol

Proof
Proof

He did it back to you.. now you want to cry about it?
Grow up.. move on.. learn to deal with it..


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

RudeBoySes said:


> Dude.. stop crying..
> 
> you do it all the time..
> 
> ...


I do debate people all the time but Ive seen posts you cant see and dude trys to provoke people often.

You should probably stay out of arguments you have no reason to be in as you dont know much about this one.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

slapshot said:


> I do debate people all the time but Ive seen posts you cant see and dude trys to provoke people often.
> 
> You should probably stay out of arguments you have no reason to be in as you dont know much about this one.


I dont know much about this one and dont know what you're talking about.

If i think some thing you say is utterly ridiculous, then im going to call you out on it. You have still yet to explain why you think Cain has better striking which leads me to believe you havnt got a clue what you're talking about.


----------



## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

slapshot said:


> I do debate people all the time but Ive seen posts you cant see and dude trys to provoke people often.
> 
> You should probably stay out of arguments you have no reason to be in as you dont know much about this one.


:sarcastic01:


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

And please feel free to refer to these "posts he cant see".


----------



## Wandys New Nose (Nov 10, 2010)

slapshot said:


> Wandys New Nose,
> Nice post, I think having to defend the td could slow his striking a bit, if Brock can stay away from his knees in the clinch that would go a long way. I like your fight breakdown. I dont think it will be easy to KO Brock wile defending his shot but it definitely could happen.


Thanks.

It could do, but I think The Reem is pretty accurate/efficent and doesn't waste energy with his striking. Normally when he throws a kick, punch or knee its on target so he'll be crisp and confident even with that beast running at him all the time. Therefore, I don't think he'll lose to much of his striking game worrying about the takedown. He would know the TD attempt is coming and can train moves to avoid it or get the KO from it.

Of course there is the other way Reem can get Brock and thats with a brutal knee as he comes in for the TD. We've seen the Reem do that a few times with his accuracy. Any man on the planet is going down if you get one of those in the chops whilst ya shooting in!

To get of the fence, I think Reems wins via sheer experience, strength and enough savy to do what needs to be done to win. Brock is a total novice in MMA really, amazing but still a novice. Ubereem is peaking now and with super size, I think this is a tough match up for cain and fedor ... let alone Brock, a baby in MMA!


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> I dont know much about this one and dont know what you're talking about.
> 
> If i think some thing you say is utterly ridiculous, then im going to call you out on it. You have still yet to explain why you think Cain has better striking which leads me to believe you havnt got a clue what you're talking about.


So being a K-1 star should mean what? Look crocop was one of the top K-1 fighters and did well in pride as well but once he joined the UFC his career hit a total wall, some would rather dismiss it as age but I think that was the smaller part of his problems at the time, its the UFC there are differences. You cant strike or use the same footwork as you would in boxing K-1 or even a ring. 

His fights have been against very low level talent in MMA for a long time now so if his striking looks fabulous well it should. He's a high level striker fighting fighters that cant match his skill level, its hard to gage a fighter off wins like that, you know he's good but seeing as he's not been tested at HW other than Rodgers Im not willing to jump out there and say he's got any heavyweight in the bag standing. 

Antoni Hardonk who also fought remy and looked competitive in that fight is probably one lose away from being cut. How well you do in K-1 in a loss against top fighters dose not necessarily translate to being the most dominant striker in MMA but wins over top fighters never look bad. Its probably the only reason people have such high expectations for him because its sure not the level of competition he's beat in mma in the last five years and yes I do think thats reaching at least a little. 

Chuck did well in mma but if he restarted he career now I think he would have alot more losses because MMA has advanced so has striking in MMA. Also Overeem doesn't have near his skill at TDD I think thats a important skill at HW in the UFC.

From watching both fighters I feel Cain has more power in his striking and what I meant to say was his striking might not be as technical as Overeem but because of his other attributes wrestling for one Overeem has to be careful with his kicks and his body position, I think his stance would need to be fairly low so it changes the way he fights and IMO should allow Cain to come out ahead striking.

Cain also walked through some of the best strikes anyone has ever seen Brock throw and they dont have to be pretty to be powerful, a lot of them landed flush. Cain has the chin to attack Overeem. 

This is in a cage and that works to Cains (or most wrestlers)advantage as well. Overeems TDD is fair but Cain and Brock have elite wrestling, both guys should be able to take him down. I cant see Cain not being able to defend sub's from the bottom. 

Nothing is 100% certain in MMA, I assume we are talking probability in most posts.


----------



## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

I still see Lesnar winning, mainly because I don't expect Overeem to just get up from under him like Velasquez did.


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Cain has some very good kick boxing skills, especially considering how inexperienced he is, but he simply isnt on Overeems level. We're talking about a guy who has KO'd Badr Hari here, hes not your average MMA kick boxer, he is one of the best kick boxers in the world.


Exactly, +1. Overeem has stood with some of the best strikers in the world. He has fought Badr Hari, Bonjanski, Aerts, and Teixeira. The notion that you could drop Cain into a K-1 match and he would be competitive against Overeem is pretty silly imo. 

Now an MMA match... *drools*



slapshot said:


> So being a K-1 star should mean what? Look crocop was one of the top K-1 fighters and did well in pride as well but once he joined the UFC his career hit a total wall, some would rather dismiss it as age but I think that was the smaller part of his problems at the time, its the UFC there are differences. You cant strike or use the same footwork as you would in boxing K-1 or even a ring.


Even if you personally don't think it was age it doesn't mean you are right. I personally believe it was age that caught up to him. 

Cro Cop was in K-1 in 1996, almost 15 years ago. After doing that for 5 years and doing quite well he as off to smash face in Pride for 6 years. That's 11 years straight of fighting. Now he has 3 years in the UFC. Dude has been fighting for a lifetime. 

Yes, there are differences in the ring vs the cage. But did you see Overeem vs. Cro Cop? That is not the same CC we saw in K-1 originally. So then I ask, if it isn't age, then why did CC get manhandled by Overeem and cry his way out of the fight? 



> His fights have been against very low level talent in MMA for a long time now so if his striking looks fabulous well it should. He's a high level striker fighting fighters that cant match his skill level, its hard to gage a fighter off wins like that, you know he's good but seeing as he's not been tested at HW other than Rodgers Im not willing to jump out there and say he's got any heavyweight in the bag standing.


We can look at his K-1 striking, in which he has and does face top level competition on a regular basis. 

Again this is back to the same odd comment you made. I'm not trying to say Overeem would beat Cain in an MMA fight. But to say Cain has better striking is insane. You point to to low level MMA talent to diss Overeems striking, well who has Cain fought? 

At least with Overeem you can look to K-1 and say "okay, he's fighting bums in mma, but clearly he is a great striker; he is going up against the best,".

With Cain all you can do is say "well, Cains striking looks decent vs. bad UFC strikers. Kongo knocked Cain down a few time when Cain tried to strike with him,".

This is what we are basing our arguments off of. The fact that Overeem has proven he has world class striking. Cain has only proven he has world class cardio and wrestling.




> Antoni Hardonk who also fought remy and looked competitive in that fight is probably one lose away from being cut. How well you do in K-1 in a loss against top fighters dose not necessarily translate to being the most dominant striker in MMA but wins over top fighters never look bad. Its probably the only reason people have such high expectations for him because its sure not the level of competition he's beat in mma in the last five years and yes I do think thats reaching at least a little.


You are right it doesn't matter how well you do in K-1 when it comes to mma. But that still doesn;t explain how you can call Cain a better striker than Overeem.



> Chuck did well in mma but if he restarted he career now I think he would have alot more losses because MMA has advanced so has striking in MMA. Also Overeem doesn't have near his skill at TDD I think thats a important skill at HW in the UFC.


Definitely Overeem's biggest weakness will be a good wrestler taking him down over and over.



> From watching both fighters I feel Cain has more power in his striking and what I meant to say was his striking might not be as technical as Overeem but because of his other attributes wrestling for one Overeem has to be careful with his kicks and his body position, I think his stance would need to be fairly low so it changes the way he fights and IMO should allow Cain to come out ahead striking.


What makes you think Cain has more power? The only guy he has ever knocked out was punch drunk big Nog, which isn't much of a feet anymore.

Overeem has KO 6 people in his UFC and K-1 career along with 12 tkos to go with that.

Granted, this is subjective and there is no way to tell, but I bet I could guarantee Overeem kicks a lot harder.



> Cain also walked through some of the best strikes anyone has ever seen Brock throw and they dont have to be pretty to be powerful, a lot of them landed flush. Cain has the chin to attack Overeem.


So now Brock is a world class striker?



> This is in a cage and that works to Cains (or most wrestlers)advantage as well. Overeems TDD is fair but Cain and Brock have elite wrestling, both guys should be able to take him down. I cant see Cain not being able to defend sub's from the bottom.
> 
> Nothing is 100% certain in MMA, I assume we are talking probability in most posts.


This I agree with.


----------



## c-dub (Nov 18, 2010)

I can see this fight being very good, Lesnar would need to work on his strike defense though. I'm a huge lesnar fan and to be honest after watching him fight Cain Velasquez I was angry with his performance. Once he stops cowering when he gets hit he'll be a great fighter.


so I think this overeem guy (who i just found out about today) would give him a good fight. if he caught Lesnar early on then it'd be over relatively quickly (unless Lesnar pulls a rabbit out). But seeing as how this guy is strictly striking most the time I don't see how he could hang with a wrestler on Lesnars level.


----------



## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

c-dub said:


> I can see this fight being very good, Lesnar would need to work on his strike defense though. I'm a huge lesnar fan and to be honest after watching him fight Cain Velasquez I was angry with his performance. Once he stops cowering when he gets hit he'll be a great fighter.
> 
> 
> so I think this overeem guy (who i just found out about today) would give him a good fight. if he caught Lesnar early on then it'd be over relatively quickly (unless Lesnar pulls a rabbit out). But seeing as how this guy is strictly striking most the time I don't see how he could hang with a wrestler on Lesnars level.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Overeem

Allistair has more wins via submission than he does via knock out. Allistair is no slouch on the ground.


----------



## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Logistically speaking, I can understand why people would want Lesnar to work on his striking, but considering he's allergic to getting punched in the face, I don't see him winning any stand up wars with a hard hitter, ever. Maybe work on defense. If anything, I think he should work on his MMA TD's. Work on set ups, maybe work on Fedor's ***** Catch punch, anything to get the fight to the ground without selling tickets to the coming (TD) projection. His wrestling strength doesn't seem to come into play until he's "secured" top control.


----------

