# Dana's Big Bluff



## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Does Dana White really believes his recent mantra/opinion on Alistair Overeem ranking? I don't think so. I think he's a bit irratated that a fighter he knows would be a huge draw and probably KTFO 95% of his HW's hasn't accepted an offer. Dana is totally bluffing on this one. Of coarse Overeem's stock just went up a bit (post-K1 win 2010)but if DW thought he was gonna sign Overeem for a bargain price I think He just got his bluff called. 
Dana, your can keep telling yourself this BULL but it aint gonna make it true. Wake up and smell the coffee. Overeem is a serious force and the UFC needs to add him to their roster.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)




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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Overeem has beat no one worth noting in MMA. That is why he doesn't deserve to be in top 10. 

He obviously has great striking but we have seen nothing of his MMA game lately to think it is that great. His latest opponents have been perfect for him in that they were low quality strikers/brawlers and he is going to pick guys like that apart any day.

He probably should be top 10 but he needs to prove it at least once in order to be considered such. He hasn't beaten anyone I would even consider top 20 though.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I agree with Dana if we are talking rankings based on what they have done then Overeem isn't there. *If you ask me if Overeem should be ranked in the top ten I would tell you no, if you asked me if he was one of the 5 best HW's in the world I would tell you absolutely.* Maybe me and Dana share a different view of what rankings mean and what they should be based on. I stil believe BJ Penn is the best LW in the world but obviously after losing two bouts at LW I can't justify ranking him as such. I don't believe you rank fighters based on who you believe is the best but rather based on who they beat and who has beaten them taking the time frame into consideration.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

I think ya'll might be smoking the same Junk as old DW. 
Yup we've heard the "he hasn't beat anyone" line. But look at who he's faught in his career and watch those fight. Then add that with his recent achievements and victories in combat sports. EQUALS, one of the badest dudes on the planet. Dude is young and has been around for a long time. He "cut his teeth" fighting some of the scariest dudes when they were at their prime. Look at his record (not just the numbers) watch the fights. You will believe.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Toxic said:


> I agree with Dana if we are talking rankings based on what they have done then Overeem isn't there. *If you ask me if Overeem should be ranked in the top ten I would tell you no, if you asked me if he was one of the 5 best HW's in the world I would tell you absolutely.* Maybe me and Dana share a different view of what rankings mean and what they should be based on. I stil believe BJ Penn is the best LW in the world but obviously after losing two bouts at LW I can't justify ranking him as such. I don't believe you rank fighters based on who you believe is the best but rather based on who they beat and who has beaten them taking the time frame into consideration.


Exactly, you have to base it on who they have beaten though or else you end up with McCorkle hype...

Undefeated, most wins early in first round.

Not hard when you are fighting a bunch of obese cans, and soon as he was put in with a decent guy they survived the early storm and punished him.

The same could easily happen to Overeem fighting a top notch grappler or wrestler. Lesnar even with his holes may be able to dominate Overeem just by bull rush donkey kong. We won't know until we see Overeem fight a decent fighter or wrestler if he can beat those types of guys. We all know he is a great striker but Toney used to be a great striker as well and we saw how that fight went.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Yojimbo said:


> I think ya'll might be smoking the same Junk as old DW.
> Yup we've heard the "he hasn't beat anyone" line. But look at who he's faught in his career and watch those fight. Then add that with his recent achievements and victories in combat sports. EQUALS, one of the badest dudes on the planet. Dude is young and has been around for a long time. He "cut his teeth" fighting some of the scariest dudes when they were at their prime. Look at his record (not just the numbers) watch the fights. You will believe.


Who has he fought in his career? I see some big names like Shogun, Arona, Werdum, Lil Nog and Liddell. You know what they have in common? He lost all of them. The biggest MMA win of the Reems career was over Vitor Belfort and that came during Belfort's rough patch when he was losing more than he was winning. Overeem's MMA career is really not impressive.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Who has he fought in his career? I see some big names like Shogun, Arona, Werdum, Lil Nog and Liddell. You know what they have in common? He lost all of them. The biggest MMA win of the Reems career was over Vitor Belfort and that came during Belfort's rough patch when he was losing more than he was winning. Overeem's MMA career is really not impressive.


Good, you are familiar with his record. You know he fought some badasses and lost to them when he was new to the game and before he matured physically. Now look at what he's done since 2008. Dude has been busy as hell. He's be very actively trying to fight the best competition. Unfortunately Strikeforce has retards running their business.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Alright, who has Overeem beat at HW thats relevent?.... theres your answer.

Overeem is potentially the best HW on the planet but potential alone doesnt make you top 10 and thats all he has atm.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

He makes a good case, one that I can agree with in a certain way, however I rate Overeem in the lower eschelon of the top ten, around 9, or 10, since there really aren't that many high value HW fighters IMO.


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## FatFreeMilk (Jan 22, 2010)

It's difficult to rank fighter especially in MMA when you have to think about which facet of combat will be effective against other fighters.

BJ Penn looked invincible at LW, yet someone with quick in and out boxing beat him. I still think BJ is can beat Edgar, so where does he stand in my rankings?


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## "El Guapo" (Jun 25, 2010)

Definately bluffing. He knows overeem would beat anyone outside of the UFC top 5 with ease, and would stand a good chance with any of the top 5. Obviously can't say that due to business, but I'm sure he'd be singing a different tune if he were in the UFC!


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

AlexMac2010 said:


> Definately bluffing. He knows overeem would beat anyone outside of the UFC top 5 with ease, and would stand a good chance with any of the top 5. Obviously can't say that due to business, but I'm sure he'd be singing a different tune if he were in the UFC!


and thats enough to be ranked top 10? just because we know that he could beat most fighters in the division? so why isnt GSP ranked top 10 in the MW divsion then? because we know that he could beat most fighters in the top 10.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Someone please remind me who the top ten HW are?


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## jmsu1 (Nov 24, 2010)

Dana cant sign him ... if he was to sign him all we would hear about is how hes the TOP guy standing .. and go through the resume of who hes fought

bluff for sure ... i raise !


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

When the ufc signs him they are going to promote him as the most dangerous HW striker ever. Dana knows he is a great fighter and wants to sign him.

Who are you putting ahead of him at the bottom end of the top ten? Fatboy? Struve? Barnet? Nog is a punching bag now and constantly injured big foot got his ass handed to him for a round by a mediocre LHW the other week and never beat anyone worth mentioning in any division. Overreem doesn't deserved to be mentioned at the top of the HW division but Randy Couture gets immediate title matches for losing in other divisions.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Who has he fought in his career? I see some big names like Shogun, Arona, Werdum, Lil Nog and Liddell. You know what they have in common? He lost all of them. The biggest MMA win of the Reems career was over Vitor Belfort and that came during Belfort's rough patch when he was losing more than he was winning. Overeem's MMA career is really not impressive.


Well, to his excuse when he fought those guys he had just become a father, his mother was diagnosed with cancer, and he was the owner of a magazine company. Not exactly the easiest moment of his life. Also, Overeem is always looking for the finish, he doesn't **** around, he takes chances and it ends up costing him the fight, but the guy is a badass. Almost all his wins are by finish.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

ptw said:


> Well, to his excuse when he fought those guys he had just become a father, his mother was diagnosed with cancer, and he was the owner of a magazine company. Not exactly the easiest moment of his life. Also, Overeem is always looking for the finish, he doesn't **** around, he takes chances and it ends up costing him the fight, but the guy is a badass. Almost all his wins are by finish.


Don't care, I am simply saying that he has not beaten anyone in MMA to deserve a top 10 ranking. Unless your going to try to dispute that then everything else is irrelevant.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Isn't the real question whether he belong in the top 5. I dare anyone to name who they have in the 8,9,10 position over The Reem.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Yojimbo said:


> Isn't the real question whether he belong in the top 5. I dare anyone to name who they have in the 8,9,10 position over The Reem.


I could probably name at least 15 who have faced consistently tougher competition in MMA. There is no question he does not belong in the top 10. I have little doubt if he was given the fights that he would become top 5. I'm 100% confident in that but he has to beat some decent HW's in MMA to earn that ranking.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Toxic said:


> I could probably name at least 15 who have faced consistently tougher competition in MMA. There is no question he does not belong in the top 10. I have little doubt if he was given the fights that he would become top 5. I'm 100% confident in that but he has to beat some decent HW's in MMA to earn that ranking.


Please humor me. Who's in your 8,9 and 10 postion?


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Yojimbo said:


> Someone please remind me who the top ten HW are?


It's hard to actually make a top 10 list. There are barely 10 HW fighters I would even consider elite fighters.

Put it this way, is Kongo on your top 10 list? Is Roy Nelson?

Everyone saying Overeem should not be on a top 10 list I implore you to type your own top 10 out. You will be struggling to find fighters who have beat anyone "relevant" because 90% of the HW division is shit. 

Everyone in the HW division is a question mark. All of our current top HW have barely beaten anyone when you start to analyze their records. The old generation of HWs is fading and wins over guys like Big Nog and CC mean nothing anymore.

Since top 10 lists are mostly based on mma math that never makes sense anyways why arn't we allowed to assume Overeem has the skill to beat the chumps near the bottom of most people top 10 hw list?


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## Rusko (Feb 4, 2010)

He makes a pretty good case.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Ape City said:


> It's hard to actually make a top 10 list. There are barely 10 HW fighters I would even consider elite fighters.
> 
> Put it this way, is Kongo on your top 10 list? Is Roy Nelson?
> 
> ...


Check and Mate. Well played sir!


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Velasquez
Werdum
JDS
Fedor
Lesnar
Antonio Silva
Shane Carwin
Antonio Rodrigo Noguira
Roy Nelson 
Frank Mir
Josh Barnett

Would all be above Overeem IMO. 


All above Overeem. Rankings wise I would place Overeem with guys like Ricco Rodriguez and Jeff Monson.

Like I said its not about MMA math to me its about who you beat and who beats you and Overeem has lost to practically every good mma fighter he fought in his career.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Velasquez
> Werdum
> JDS
> Fedor
> ...


You must be high. What you smoking? 
So it's you and Dana against the world? Because every single credible non ufc affiliated ranking has Overeem in the top 10. Seriously people I know you guys love Dana but open your eyes.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Yojimbo said:


> You must be high. What you smoking?
> So it's you and Dana against the world? Because every single credible non ufc affiliated ranking has Overeem in the top 10. Seriously people I know you guys love Dana but open your eyes.


I don't understand what they base it on though? Maybe I am not looking at it the same way but to me when people rank teams in other sports at the end of the regular season they don't base it on speculation they base it on the actual results of the games played but somehow in MMA rankings are part fantasy booker. It makes no sense to me because IMO rankings need to based on actual fight results against actual opponents in the actual sport we are ranking. If you go back and read I actually stated that I think Overeem is one of the top 3 HW's in all of mma but that doesn't mean he has earned the ranking (yet). It may suck because its partially due to the refusal of some SF fighters to face him but its reality.


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

I'm with Toxic on this one, except I believe that Overeem is the best HW in the world.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Toxic said:


> I don't understand what they base it on though?


They base it on the fact that he has been destroying all competition in front of him in these two sports that do have many similarities. I'll admit that the recent names on his mma accomplishments are not by themselves overly impressive. However you can't say he hasn't actively tried to fight the best and has done a quite good job considering he's not fighting in the UFC. 
You yourself have Fedor on your top ten list. Is this a sentimental choice or because of his recent accomplishments? Because Fedor really hasn't done anything in the past 2-3 years to be on the list (I have Fedor #4-5 on my list).


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## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't see how Overeem can be ranked top 10. His opponents simply aren't good enough. Rogers, Fujita, James Thompson? Please. 

Now that isn't to say Overeem wouldn't beat a top 10 HW. I think he can but he has to do it first to get the ranking.


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## "El Guapo" (Jun 25, 2010)

DJ Syko said:


> and thats enough to be ranked top 10? just because we know that he could beat most fighters in the division? so why isnt GSP ranked top 10 in the MW divsion then? because we know that he could beat most fighters in the top 10.


Personally I never rank GSP in my top ten middleweight fighters because he has never fought there...
Crazy I know.

On topic Dana is not stupid enough to not place this guy in the top ten heavyweight list (no matter what he says), and IMO, a top ten list takes into consideration a fighter skills and talents - not just because they haven't fought top ten opponents.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Yojimbo said:


> They base it on the fact that he has been destroying all competition in front of him in these two sports that do have many similarities. I'll admit that the recent names on his mma accomplishments are not by themselves overly impressive. However you can't say he hasn't actively tried to fight the best and has done a quite good job considering he's not fighting in the UFC.
> You yourself have Fedor on your top ten list. Is this a sentimental choice or because of his recent accomplishments? Because Fedor really hasn't done anything in the past 2-3 years to be on the list (I have Fedor #4-5 on my list).


Fedor really hasn't done a lot to earn on to the list but he has done enough not to fall off of it as well. The thing is Overeem has never done enough to earn his way on. Destroying competition is fine but when your competition are outside of one 10-15 Hw none would even be top 30. It doesn't get you far. 

I can look at a guy like Ricco Rodriguez who is 10-0 in his last ten fights and has a better overall record with bigger wins over the likes of Couture, Arlovski and Monson. And try to use that to justify a higher ranking and it would be more justified IMO than Overeem. 

Lets look at it another way would you dispute it if I claimed that Junior Dos Santos was a top 5 kickboxer? But JDS was like 18-0 as a kick boxer (against nobodies) and is 12-1 in mma including winning his last 6 mma fights and that should count according to your logic shouldn't it? Come on he even beat Cro Cop. Seems absurd when you put the shoe on the other foot doesn't it?


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Velasquez
> Werdum
> JDS
> Fedor
> ...


That list is a joke. Kharitonov, Rogers, and Buentello are better wins than anyone Bigfoot has ever fought. Roy Nelson hasn't beaten anyone as good as Rogers even in his career and Barnett hasn't beaten anyone since 2006 and can't even fight in the USA because he can't stop using steroids.

You base your rankings on personal bias not who you beat.


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## Magog (Jan 20, 2008)

Yojimbo said:


> Does Dana White really believes his recent mantra/opinion on Alistair Overeem ranking? I don't think so. I think he's a bit irratated that a fighter he knows would be a huge draw and probably KTFO 95% of his HW's hasn't accepted an offer. Dana is totally bluffing on this one. Of coarse Overeem's stock just went up a bit (post-K1 win 2010)but if DW thought he was gonna sign Overeem for a bargain price I think He just got his bluff called.
> Dana, your can keep telling yourself this BULL but it aint gonna make it true. Wake up and smell the coffee. Overeem is a serious force and the UFC needs to add him to their roster.


Your under the impression is all about the money. if this was true Kimbo would still have a job. He does not.

And further more Dana White claims he's not interested. How do you know there even was an offer?
1
Uber reem hype is based around k-1. To bring him into the ufc Dana would have him cut of his ties with the one thing that makes him huge. Catch 22.

2
When was the last time K-1 was relvent? Don't these guys still give Bob Sapp and Peter Artes jobs after how many years? Old men, or under talented fighters. I'm not hating that's how it is.

3
The UFC does not need Uber reem. Most heavy weights in boxing could knock out 95 percent of the ufc.. I guess dana's scared of them to. Der, der der. (Okay I was trolling there but you have it coming).

Look, Uber reem is barely competiting in Strike Force.. tell me how many mma fights do you see him having next years? Go on I'll wait.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

AlexMac2010 said:


> Personally I never rank GSP in my top ten middleweight fighters because he has never fought there...
> Crazy I know.
> 
> On topic Dana is not stupid enough to not place this guy in the top ten heavyweight list (no matter what he says), and IMO, a top ten list takes into consideration a fighter skills and talents - not just because they haven't fought top ten opponents.


but by your criteria you should have GSP in your Top 10 MW, because he has the 'skills and talents' to be there does he not? its not about him fighting any top ten MW's is it?


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

Dana speaks sence in this instance... Overeem _skillwise_ is easily top 10, yes... But who has he beaten? And more importantly, who has he beaten recently? The man has had 2 (TWO!) MMA-fights in close to 3 years or something, that cannot add up to a top 10 ranking, end o' story


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

As far as who has beat who rankings Overeem is at best 8th with Velasquez, Lesnar, Carwin, Werdum, Mir, Dos Santos and Fedor ahead of him(list not in order)

Nogeuria, Barnett and Overeem probably make up 8,9 and 10.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

osmium said:


> That list is a joke. Kharitonov, Rogers, and Buentello are better wins than anyone Bigfoot has ever fought. Roy Nelson hasn't beaten anyone as good as Rogers even in his career and Barnett hasn't beaten anyone since 2006 and can't even fight in the USA because he can't stop using steroids.
> 
> You base your rankings on personal bias not who you beat.


Arlovski is far better than Kharitonov or Buentello. IMO Ricco, Arlovksi and Kyle are better wins than Kharitonov, Rogers and Buentello. Its also funny you mention Kharitonov since Overeem has lost to him to in there most recent fight also. 

Roy Nelson hasn't really beaten anyone and I will give you that one. 

Barnett fought Monson in 2008 which was probably his last big fight but he has stayed active enough like Fedor IMO to maintain somewhat of his position. Overeem has only fought 2 more times than Barnett in the last 2 years. And ha equally weak competition but since his overall MMA record has better wins IMO he gets the better ranking.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

zarny said:


> I don't see how Overeem can be ranked top 10. His opponents simply aren't good enough. Rogers, Fujita, James Thompson? Please.
> 
> Now that isn't to say Overeem wouldn't beat a top 10 HW. I think he can but he has to do it first to get the ranking.


This is how i see it and i everybody should IMO. Overeem has the talent and skills to be a top 3 for sure but he isn't. His a kickboxer first and an MMA fighter second lately. 

He would most definitely be a force in the HW division in MMA, if he'd fight more often.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Lets look at it another way would you dispute it if I claimed that Junior Dos Santos was a top 5 kickboxer? But JDS was like 18-0 as a kick boxer (against nobodies) and is 12-1 in mma including winning his last 6 mma fights and that should count according to your logic shouldn't it? Come on he even beat Cro Cop. Seems absurd when you put the shoe on the other foot doesn't it?


I am actually having a bit of trouble disputing this.

I will however say that one big difference in the two lines of thinking is that the Reem is considered an MMA fighter who does kick boxing. So placing him on an mma list seems more natural.

Another factor that comes into play is that mma fighters only compete a few times a year. With so few frames of reference and no real way to have everyone fight everyone in a given "season" it becomes part speculation and fantasy by default.

Couple that wtih a confusing year of fighter a beats b, loses to c, and then c beats b, and you have to speculate.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Rauno said:


> He's a kickboxer first and an MMA fighter second lately.


Don't agree. I think he's done what he can to compete in the biggest shows there are outside of the UFC. Other than sign with the UFC what can he do to get a big fight? He is with an organization that has under contract some great competition for him but they are too inept to make the fights happen. I think he's actually very well with his accomplishments and especially turning heads in his direction.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Ape City said:


> I am actually having a bit of trouble disputing this.
> 
> I will however say that one big difference in the two lines of thinking is that the Reem is considered an MMA fighter who does kick boxing. So placing him on an mma list seems more natural.
> 
> ...


First question why is Overeem considered a mma fighter who does kickboxing? Overeem started out kickboxing, trains at a kickboxing gym and has had a more sucessful kickboxing career than he had a mma career.

As for it has to be part speculation I can somewhat see your logic but you are basing it off his performance in an entirely different sport. And in my books he needs to accomplish something and beat relevant mma fighters to earn that kinda ranking.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

Why on earth would the president of the UFC admit that SF has the best 2 HW's in the world. Dana knows the score he is just trying to keep the illusion alive that the UFC is superior in every way, and from LW to MW it is far superior without question, but at LHW is close and debatable (currently standing and forgetting how strong the UFC LHE division once was after it first merged with Pride), but at HW SF is the winner.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> Why on earth would the president of the UFC admit that SF has the best 2 HW's in the world. Dana knows the score he is just trying to keep the illusion alive that the UFC is superior in every way, and from LW to MW it is far superior without question, but at LHW is close and debatable (currently standing and forgetting how strong the UFC LHE division once was after it first merged with Pride), but at HW SF is the winner.


I have no idea how you can say LHW is close. LHW I don't think Mousasi and King Mo would ever be more than a gatekeeper. I think Brandon Vera could be a serious contender in SF. I have been accused of shitting on Rampage but I would be supremely confident if he went to SF he would win there title with little difficulty.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

LHW is not close. Shogun, Rashad, Rampage, Machida, Jones, Bader, Franklin, Griffin, Hamill, Davis, Couture, Silva and Vera is a vastly superior division to Feijao, Mo, Mousasi, Henderson, Kyle and Babalu. The top 3's might be somewhat close, but in terms of the actual division the UFC has the large majority of the best fighters in the world. There's no way Feijao would be champion in the UFC.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Man, this thread has gone wild! I think he's a top ten, and after I took a minute and broke it down, its hard to make a top ten listing that's actually sensicle IMO without him somewhere. It goes back to the skill gap that's so obvious at HW.

1. Velasquez
2. JDS
3. Werdum
4. Carwin *
5. Fedor *
6. Mir
7. Minotauro Nogeuira
8. Antonio Silva #
9. Overeen #
10 Roy Nelson

* interchangeable

# interchangeable


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Squirrelfighter said:


> Man, this thread has gone wild! I think he's a top ten, and after I took a minute and broke it down, its hard to make a top ten listing that's actually sensicle IMO without him somewhere. It goes back to the skill gap that's so obvious at HW.
> 
> 1. Velasquez
> 2. JDS
> ...


Of coarse! Dana's bluffing his ass off.

And I would eagerly bet on Overeem if he was the underdog against 70% of that list. I think Cain and Brock are fights he likely doesn't win. Everyone else I think he demolishes.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Brock Lesnar no longer Top 10 SF? =/

My Top 10 on purely Rankings would be:

1. Cain Velasquez
2. Junior Dos Santos
3. Brock Lesnar
4. Fabricio Werdum
5. Fedor Emelianenko
6. Shane Carwin
7. Frank Mir
8. Minatauro Nogueira
9. Roy Nelson
10. Antonio Silva/Stefan Struve

With Skill level also considered I'd go:

1. Cain Velasquez
2. Junior Dos Santos
3. Alistair Overeem
4. Brock Lesnar
5. Fedor Emelianenko
6. Shane Carwin
7. Fabricio Werdum
8. Frank Mir
9. Minatauro Nogueira
10. Antonio Silva


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Yojimbo said:


> Of coarse! Dana's bluffing his ass off.
> 
> *And I would eagerly bet on Overeem if he was the underdog against 70% of that list. I think Cain and Brock are fights he likely doesn't win. Everyone else I think he demolishes.*


I agree about Overeem being able to beat 70% of the list and f he beat one of them he could probably justify joining the list but as of right now. Nothing.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

Toxic said:


> I have no idea how you can say LHW is close. LHW I don't think Mousasi and King Mo would ever be more than a gatekeeper. I think Brandon Vera could be a serious contender in SF. I have been accused of shitting on Rampage but I would be supremely confident if he went to SF he would win there title with little difficulty.


King MO is very underrated, the fact that Feijao beat him speaks remarkable credits to his ability, its a shame that King Mo took the dive in the eyes of many fans as been over rated instead of giving Feijao the credit for been one of the very best peaking in his career guys at LHW in the world right now.

As for Mousasi I swear if ever there was one cross promotion fight I would lvoe to see its Mousasi vs Jones (my mouth waters at the thought of that fight), that would answer ever question about how close the divisions are, and there are questions because I could be wrong but I believe Mousasi could Sub Jones, but thats not a obvious fact like saying Overeem would KO Brock. 

The Roger Gracie in the mix as well, I think he would defo sub Jones if it went to the mat, not sure that it would go to the mat but I give it a strong chance. And where do I rank Jones, I think he is the No.1 LHW in the UFC right now, but I think there are 4 guys at SF who could beat him, if he had to fight all 4 (Gracie, Mousasi, Feijao, King Mo) I believe he would loose more than once.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Danm2501 said:


> Brock Lesnar no longer Top 10 SF?


Ya, Brock has to be on that list.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> King MO is very underrated, the fact that Feijao beat him speaks remarkable credits to his ability, its a shame that King Mo took the dive in the eyes of many fans as been over rated instead of giving Feijao the credit for been one of the very best peaking in his career guys at LHW in the world right now.


 King Mo didn't fall in my eyes after Feijao beat him I just frankly never thought he was any good. He looked horrible the first time he faced a real opponent in Mousasi in a fight that made neither guy look like the deserved to be a top 40 LHW. That was one of the most abysmal title fights I have ever seen in any organization.


> As for Mousasi I swear if ever there was one cross promotion fight I would lvoe to see its Mousasi vs Jones (my mouth waters at the thought of that fight), that would answer ever question about how close the divisions are, and there are questions because I could be wrong but I believe Mousasi could Sub Jones, but thats not a obvious fact like saying Overeem would KO Brock.


 Jones would smash Mousasi. Mousasi couldn't even sub King Mo who doesn't do nearly the damage Jones does. Vera and Vlad were both solid grapplers and looked completely overwhelmed against Jones. Mousasi is a good fighter but he is far from complete and any wrestler is gonna beat him every time. I would take 1 to 2 odds on Tito against Gegard.


> The Roger Gracie in the mix as well, I think he would defo sub Jones if it went to the mat, not sure that it would go to the mat but I give it a strong chance. And where do I rank Jones, I think he is the No.1 LHW in the UFC right now, but I think there are 4 guys at SF who could beat him, if he had to fight all 4 (Gracie, Mousasi, Feijao, King Mo) I believe he would loose more than once.


Gracie is interesting and I am not sure how he will do. I think you slightly overestimate him though and are expecting some Gracie magic that will live up to the family hype because honestly while he is obviously a brilliant grappler its not like Roger was pulling out magic flying gogoplata's against Randleman.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

Toxic said:


> King Mo didn't fall in my eyes after Feijao beat him I just frankly never thought he was any good. He looked horrible the first time he faced a real opponent in Mousasi in a fight that made neither guy look like the deserved to be a top 40 LHW. That was one of the most abysmal title fights I have ever seen in any organization.
> Jones would smash Mousasi. Mousasi couldn't even sub King Mo who doesn't do nearly the damage Jones does. Vera and Vlad were both solid grapplers and looked completely overwhelmed against Jones. Mousasi is a good fighter but he is far from complete and any wrestler is gonna beat him every time. I would take 1 to 2 odds on Tito against Gegard.
> 
> Gracie is interesting and I am not sure how he will do. I think you slightly overestimate him though and are expecting some Gracie magic that will live up to the family hype because honestly while he is obviously a brilliant grappler its not like Roger was pulling out magic flying gogoplata's against Randleman.


King Mo plays a safer wrestling game to Jones, Jones does more damage but the UFC lacks great submission experts so he can get away with not having to guard himself as much against submissions when he is grappling, but I think he could be caught out by a guy like Mousasi or Gracie who have world class submissions, Ming Mo on the other hand when grappling keeps his defence tight, something Jones is willing to give up for extra aggression.

Jones has looked excellent at passing guard, but who has he faced who has had a world class guard, Mousasi and Gracie I think could keep him in Guard wait for him to launch and sweep or grab a Guillotine or Karma, just a theory but any BJJ coach will tell you to keep posture first and attack in short bursts from the Guard, Jones just attacks and opens himself up.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Yojimbo said:


> Of coarse! Dana's bluffing his ass off.
> 
> And I would eagerly bet on Overeem if he was the underdog against 70% of that list. I think Cain and Brock are fights he likely doesn't win. Everyone else I think he demolishes.


I actually forgot about Lesnar, sweet memory right?:thumb02: I would consider betting on his against the lower five. But due to his lack of competition against high level MMA fighters of late, I wouldn't bet either way. 

Edited to add Lesnar:

1. Velasquez
2. JDS
3. Werdum
4. Lesnar
5. Carwin *
6. Fedor *
7. Mir
8. Minotauro Nogueira
9. Anotonio Silva #
10 Overeem #

* interchangeable

# interchangeable


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Don't care, I am simply saying that he has not beaten anyone in MMA to deserve a top 10 ranking. Unless your going to try to dispute that then everything else is irrelevant.


This is true, I see where you're coming. I've made the same argument before, thing is...now he's won the K1GP and has pretty much solidified himself as the best striker in the HW MMA division which is pretty shallow if you ask me. Mix that in with the fact that almost 2/3rds of his career wins are by submission and you've got yourself a dangerous guy. That's what I'm saying, rankings don't mean shit to me really, Brock Lesnar was ranked number 1 til Velazquez exposed a huge hole in his game...he's scared of punches. The same guy is still ranked in the top 5...that's a damn joke.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

Cain, JDS, Werdum, Overeem, Fedor, Brock, Carwin, Mir, Bigfoot, and Schuab is the correct top ten.

Overeem though is as high as he is in most people's rankings, really because of his potential/K-1 Status, that's like putting Roger Gracie in the top ten at 205, just because he'd dust everyone else in the weight class at one discipline doesn't make him a better, more complete fighter.

I'd rank him at Four, as he has been impressive in MMA lately, and despite the fact that he has one defense in three years, he is the Champion in Strikeforce.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Being HW champ in strikeforce is meaningless. The belt has no lineage it was merely handed to the winner of Paul Buentello and Alistair Overeem.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Being HW champ in strikeforce is meaningless. The belt has no lineage it was merely handed to the winner of Paul Buentello and Alistair Overeem.


I don't think it's meaningless when conservatively Strikeforce has 3 top 10 HWs. And the two other top ten dudes they have are scared to fight him


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Yojimbo said:


> I don't think it's meaningless when conservatively Strikeforce has 3 top 10 HWs. And the two other top ten dudes they have are scared to fight him


Sadly that is exactly what makes it meaningless. Its not the best fighting the best its one of there best fighters fighting who ever will take the fight. The title has been fought for twice once was by Paul Buentello who come on is hardly a world beater and the other was Overeem against Brett Rogers who was coming off a loss an had dropped off the top 10. Two top 10 fighters haven't even fought for it. Heck IMO not a single top 10 fighter has competed for it. They have the roster to legitimize a belt but they politics in Strikeforce are just sad.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Sadly that is exactly what makes it meaningless. Its not the best fighting the best its one of there best fighters fighting who ever will take the fight. The title has been fought for twice once was by Paul Buentello who come on is hardly a world beater and the other was Overeem against Brett Rogers who was coming off a loss an had dropped off the top 10. Two top 10 fighters haven't even fought for it. Heck IMO not a single top 10 fighter has competed for it. They have the roster to legitimize a belt but they politics in Strikeforce are just sad.


So it means nothing to you that two fighters who you have on your top 10 list are not eager to test their skills against Overeem. It's incredibly obvious that Werdum and Fedor have a ton of trepidation when it comes to fighting The Reem. When people who are widely considered supreme badasses are scared to fight a dude, I'm thinking that dude their scared to fight is the real badass.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Yojimbo said:


> So it means nothing to you that two fighters who you have on your top 10 list are not eager to test their skills against Overeem. It's incredibly obvious that Werdum and Fedor have a ton of trepidation when it comes to fighting The Reem. When people who are widely considered supreme badasses are scared to fight a dude, I'm thinking that dude their scared to fight is the real badass.


It means Overeem is the supreme bad ass in SF don't get me wrong it means he is a bad dude but it doesn't legitimize either Overeem as a top 10 fighter nor does it legitimize the SF title which is basically at this point less legitimate than an interim title.


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## Indestructibl3 (Apr 2, 2009)

The only issue with accepting that Overeem is top 10, is that he has to prove it - and as of now, he has not - regardless of what people may think. He needs to fight the top guys. So after he faces (and defeats) guys like Fedor, Werdum, BigFoot in Strikeforce he'll have a case for being in the top 10. It's simple. We can _think_ that he can defeat the above 3 guys at this point in time, but he *needs* to prove it to make him worthy of top 10 talk.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Toxic said:


> It means Overeem is the supreme bad ass in SF don't get me wrong it means he is a bad dude but it doesn't legitimize either Overeem as a top 10 fighter nor does it legitimize the SF title which is basically at this point less legitimate than an interim title.


Are you saying it would mean something if Fedor or Werdum had it because they are on the list?


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

420atalon said:


> Overeem has beat no one worth noting in MMA. That is why he doesn't deserve to be in top 10.
> 
> He obviously has great striking but we have seen nothing of his MMA game lately to think it is that great. His latest opponents have been perfect for him in that they were low quality strikers/brawlers and he is going to pick guys like that apart any day.
> 
> He probably should be top 10 but he needs to prove it at least once in order to be considered such. He hasn't beaten anyone I would even consider top 20 though.


Not sure if you actually watched the rodgers fight? Reem didnt pick Rodgers apart on the feet. He actually rag dolled him to the ground and finished him with some heavy GNP. Further displaying that hes not just an elite striker, but a well rounded mixed marital artist. He also took cro cop down (not an easy task) and GNP'd the crap out of him.

If any one thinks that overeem is just a one dimensional striker with a lack of grappling needs to do some research. He has more submission finishes than knockouts.

UFC need to sign Reem pronto.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Yojimbo said:


> Are you saying it would mean something if Fedor or Werdum had it because they are on the list?


It would mean something if they all started fighting each other for the damn thing. If Overeem had fought Fedor instead of Rogers, Werdum had fought the winner of that etc. The best fighters in SF aren't even fighting for the damn thing. Lets look at two of the last 3 people to fight for the SF title, one couldn't cut it in the UFC and got cut after recieving a beatdown from Kongo (who is on the verge of getting cut himself), another one barely beat Rueben Villareal (If you don't know who Villareal is Justin McCully and Mike Whitehead didn't take a combined 5 minutes to finish him). There has yet to be a legitimate fight for that title.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Arlovski is far better than Kharitonov or Buentello. IMO Ricco, Arlovksi and Kyle are better wins than Kharitonov, Rogers and Buentello. Its also funny you mention Kharitonov since Overeem has lost to him to in there most recent fight also.
> 
> Roy Nelson hasn't really beaten anyone and I will give you that one.
> 
> Barnett fought Monson in 2008 which was probably his last big fight but he has stayed active enough like Fedor IMO to maintain somewhat of his position. Overeem has only fought 2 more times than Barnett in the last 2 years. And ha equally weak competition but since his overall MMA record has better wins IMO he gets the better ranking.


I don't see the point of ranking a guy who can't fight for the HW title because he never cycles off steroids. Arlovski went 1-2 against Timmy, outpointed Werdum, and beat buentello and Roy Nelson and then proceeded to get raped by everyone else half decent he fought. Arlovski was never much more than a mouthpiece, a beard, and a UFC hype job and I consider his record at HW to be worse than Overeems since he lost so much against decent not great fighters and was never as dominant against the same level of competition Overeem has beaten.


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## FrodoFraggins (Oct 25, 2009)

You earn rankings by beating legit opponents. He hasn't come lose to doing so in the HW division. One solid win would change all that.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Toxic said:


> I have no idea how you can say LHW is close. LHW I don't think Mousasi and King Mo would ever be more than a gatekeeper. I think Brandon Vera could be a serious contender in SF. I have been accused of shitting on Rampage but I would be supremely confident if he went to SF he would win there title with little difficulty.


This is correct.

The Mo-Mousassi fight was one of the sloppiest fights I ever have seen for a title. They were both gassed by the 2nd round. Each one would get wrecked by Shogun, Machida, Rashad, Jon Jones, and Rampage. Neither guy has that many great wins, the definition of can collectors.

The LHW division is easily the UFCs division. Guys like Thiago Silva and Brandon Vera would most likely be legit contenders in SF, if not in title fights.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Toxic is completely right. 

MMA ranking websites are filled with indie hipsters that think it's cool to overrate any non-UFC fighter just because. 

If winning K1 meant shit in MMA, then Schlit and Hunt have been the #1 HW in the world for this whole last decade. Except it was humiliating watching them get tooled by any top MMA fighter. But oh wait, it was the same with Overeem. 

Dude gets tooled by Chuck, Shogun, Arona, Nog, Kharitonov and Werdum but now it's different, he's taken some roids and crushed a bunch of cans ... he is teh nomber 1.

Until he fights Werdum again or Fedor, he is irrelevant. Come back once he gets destroyed by them or by the UFC gatekeepers, I'll give you my best "I told you so".


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> Toxic is completely right.
> 
> MMA ranking websites are filled with indie hipsters that think it's cool to overrate any non-UFC fighter just because.
> 
> ...


Would the old version of Overeem who lost to Chuck, Shogun etc of had the ability to go out and win the K-1?

Do you seriously not think Overeem has improved since then, come back when you are talking about the same fighter because that Overeem you are talking about is gone and has been replaced by what you see today. What is irrelevant is anything that happened over 2 years ago, because there is not a single fighter on the planet who has improved more than the Reem in the last 2 years.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

KillerShark1985 said:


> Would the old version of Overeem who lost to Chuck, Shogun etc of had the ability to go out and win the K-1?
> 
> Do you seriously not think Overeem has improved since then, come back when you are talking about the same fighter because that Overeem you are talking about is gone and has been replaced by what you see today. What is irrelevant is anything that happened over 2 years ago, *because there is not a single fighter on the planet who has improved more than the Reem in the last 2 years.*


Probably because there is not a single fighter on the planet who has doped more than Reem in the last two years. 

The dude hardly fights in the US without years long hiatuses messing with cycles to plan out how to pass his piss test.

The old Overeem would not have won the K1 GP because he was undersized. The new overeem did because he magically fixed that. That's it, the technique is the exact same. 

But increased size won't matter as much when he's up against well rounded guys his own size, and with mma gloves. Top MMA fighters who found holes earlier will still find the same holes.

Nothing so far has shown how he will suddenly do better in MMA than his fairly gatekeeperish career for so long.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> Probably because there is not a single fighter on the planet who has doped more than Reem in the last two years.
> 
> The dude hardly fights in the US without years long hiatuses messing with cycles to plan out how to pass his piss test.
> 
> ...


You know whats so funny about this, is that your going to be proved so wrong and look like an idiot if he ever signs for the UFC and completely demolishes the entire division, oh whit a min what division, JDS and Cain because that's all they have and nether has anywhere near the experience of Overeem, would I be right in thinking Overeem has more pro wins that Cain and JDS combined, add Brock to the equation and I bet Overeem still has more pro wins than them all put together.

So the dramatic level of improvement in fighting skills he has shown in the last 2 years is not going to help him in MMA is that what you think, if you cant see how much of a better fighter he is now you are an idiot. Do you actually watch the guy fight or just look at a wiki page of stats to see who beat him and who not.

As for the list of fighters you listed who beat Reem in the past, do you seriously think any of them would stand a chance today, Chuck seriously I would hate to see Chuck vs the Reem now beaucase I think that the Reem could quite literately beat him to death, Shogun would be fcuked too, 

Werdun IS fcuked when he gets back in that cage with the Reem, I have no doubt I sig bet you on it even and even give you a decision win to the Reem, In fact what the hell I sig bet you that Reem finishes Werdum in the first round, i will sig bet you with a Sig that the looser will have to keep not just for a month but forever.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

KillerShark1985 said:


> You know whats so funny about this, is that your going to be proved so wrong and look like an idiot if he ever signs for the UFC and completely demolishes the entire division, oh whit a min what division, JDS and Cain because that's all they have and nether has anywhere near the experience of Overeem, would I be right in thinking Overeem has more pro wins that Cain and JDS combined, add Brock to the equation and I bet Overeem still has more pro wins than them all put together.
> 
> So the dramatic level of improvement in fighting skills he has shown in the last 2 years is not going to help him in MMA is that what you think, if you cant see how much of a better fighter he is now you are an idiot. Do you actually watch the guy fight or just look at a wiki page of stats to see who beat him and who not.
> 
> ...


I've seen his recent fights, and the only noticeable change is size and power. And the fact that his opponents were a bunch of mid-levels or complete scrubs who would make even Gonzaga and Kongo look like gods. 

And you know what's even funnier? How you and all overroid fans will completely shy away from any reem related thread the moment he gets taken down and TROUNCED by a ufc mid level like Roy.

Sure I'll sig bet you on it if you want ... Overeem vs any other of these other Top 10 HWs within 2011 - Cain, JDS, Lesnar, Fedor, Werdum, Carwin and Roy. I wouldn't be so confident against the likes of Mir or Nog because I feel those guys are overrated themselves, but any of the others, hell yeah. Heck I'd even consider it against Kongo. 

Honestly, of all the above I'm least confident with Werdum style wise but even then I'll do it. Any of others it would be a joke how easily Reem would get destroyed.

It'll probably be a long wait, but I remember my bets ... I've collected on some almost a year down, so I'm good for it.

As for listing past fighters, yeah bring up a has been past retirement chuck and guys in a div Overeem couldn't fit in if he lived on twigs for a month. P4P Shogun is still the better fighter, but obviously he ain't planning on putting on 55 lbs anytime soon. So would a prime chuck, pound-for-pound.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> I've seen his recent fights, and the only noticeable change is size and power. And the fact that his opponents were a bunch of mid-levels or complete scrubs who would make even Gonzaga and Kongo look like gods.
> 
> And you know what's even funnier? How you and all overroid fans will completely shy away from any reem related thread the moment he gets taken down and TROUNCED by a ufc mid level like Roy.
> 
> ...


OK first opponent he faces from that list, it will be Werdum by the way early around March/April time next year, SF are setting that up for certain.

Oh and you think I just jumping on the bandwagon now because he just won the K-1 lol,. I started this bandwagon way back even before the Rogers fight, I said back than that Overeem was in the form of his life and would prove to be the best HW in the world, and I have seem nothing since then to make me think otherwise.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

KillerShark1985 said:


> OK first opponent he faces from that list, it will be Werdum by the way early around March/April time next year, SF are setting that up for certain.
> 
> Oh and you think I just jumping on the bandwagon now because he just won the K-1 lol,. I started this bandwagon way back even before the Rogers fight, I said back than that Overeem was in the form of his life and would prove to be the best HW in the world, and I have seem nothing since then to make me think otherwise.


Same. 265 lbs, non-anemic Overeem. I've put him as #1 HW in the world and very confidently confirmed with his display on Rogers. He might not be proven as of late, but power, striking, grappling, agility - he's got it all.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Probably because there is not a single fighter on the planet who has doped more than Reem in the last two years.
> 
> The dude hardly fights in the US without years long hiatuses messing with cycles to plan out how to pass his piss test.
> 
> ...


Overeem 2003 - 205 lbs (against Liddell)

Overeem 2008-2010 - 255+ lbs

So you think it's impossible to gain 50 lbs in 7 years?!

In 2003 Overeem was 23 yrs old. And still growin into an adult body! Plus he has a huge body frame. In 2003 he looked kinda skinny for his frame annyway.

Considering Alistair is a professional and has the best nutrition experts at his disposal, and he can afforf the best strength and conditioning experts, i think it's more than possible to gain that much weight in that ammount of time.

I gained 18 lbs in 2+ months, by only taking Monohydrate creatine (10 grams/day) and proteins (80 grams/day). Went from about 185 to 201-203 lbs. 

*Me * *Overeem*​2+ months 5 years​110% amateur 100% professional​no trainer best trainers​mediocre nutrition best nutrition​mediocre supplements best supplements​mediocre gym best gyms​
Sounds impossible, right?!

I'm not saying he didn't use banned substances, because i don't know. Neither do you or anyone else.
He (and his staff) knows.
For now, he is clean, because drugs testing hasn't shown anything.
Making accusations withouth having any proof is called "calumny" and it can get you in big truble in the court of justice.

For me, Overeem is clean, until he fails a drugs test. Easy as that.

*On topic*: I think Dana wants Overeem, but he just can't say he is one of the best in the world atm.
By doing that, he would give a lot of credibility to Strikeforce. And MMA is a business right now: you don't do stuff like that!

He didn't say anything about Jake Shields, untill his SF contract was over. Then, Dana started talking more and more about what a great fighter Shields is. And after the UFC signed him, Dana acknowledged him as one of the best in the world.
The same with Gomi.
The same with Roy Nelson. 

So, it's easy: untill he doesn't sign him, he simply can't praise him too much. 
I'm 100% convinced: once the UFC signs him, Dana will give Overeem the props he deserves.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Well I'm not accusing Overeem in a court of law, so I don't need to worry about calumny. But there's also something called freedom of speech (well we used to have it anyway  ) so I can express my opinion on him quite freely.

You're right, I can't claim to know for sure that he's juicing, but the fact that he didn't defend his SF title for THREE whole years is a bit fishy. All the while he only fought in Japan where roids are quite common and roid testing is a joke, and the Netherlands, which has some of the most lax drug laws in the western world and is his home country to boot.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Well I'm not accusing Overeem in a court of law, so I don't need to worry about calumny. But there's also something called freedom of speech (well we used to have it anyway  ) so I can express my opinion on him quite freely.
> 
> You're right, I can't claim to know for sure that he's juicing, but the fact that he didn't defend his SF title for THREE whole years is a bit fishy. All the while he only fought in Japan where roids are quite common and roid testing is a joke, and the Netherlands, which has some of the most lax drug laws in the western world and is his home country to boot.


I love The Netherlands...lol

I hear you.
It's just that, i believe it's more than possible for him to have put all those muscles without taking banned drugs.

The fact that he hasn't defended his belt for 3 years can raise a question mark. 

But the reality is. He hasn't tested positive yet.

Atm i hope the Dana/the UFC would find a way to sign him. So that all the speculations surrounding his status as a fighter and medical suspicions could be answered.

I believe all it takes is for the UFC and Overeem to find a compromise that would allow him to continue fighting is K1 also. And atm SF gives him this freedom.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Limba you also need to take into account that Overeem was already a long time professional fighter training at an elite level. The average guy can put on muscle faster because they shock the system but to continue doing so long term is much more difficult.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Limba you also need to take into account that Overeem was already a long time professional fighter training at an elite level. The average guy can put on muscle faster because they shock the system but to continue doing so long term is much more difficult.


Agreed.

It's just that back in 2003 he was already somewhere arround 205-210 if i'm not mistaking. The Pride MW division was the equivalent of the UFC LHW division - 205 lbs. Am i right?!

In 2003 he was 23 years old. I'm just saying it's more than possible, even for a professional fighter to put on such huge muscle mass on his frame, in that ammount of time: 4-5 years.

And Overeem has the body frame of a heavyweight. He is 6 ft 5 in tall. I'm pretty convinced he had the same height in 2003 also. And he was kinda skinny and ripped at that time imo.

Bottom line is. He said he didn't juice. Should we believe him?! Idk...everyone is entitled to believe what they want to.
I tend to believe him. 
If i'm wrong, i'll admit it and be the first one to throw rocks at him.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

limba said:


> Overeem 2003 - 205 lbs (against Liddell)
> 
> Overeem 2008-2010 - 255+ lbs
> 
> ...


Epically epic post full of epicness!

Also on the bolded section. He also refered to Mayhem as "goof ball" up until it came out his contract was almost up. Now he's "one of the best middleweights out there." White is just doing what every other boss out there does. Hyping up his company, and belittling his opposition. When Overeem is at the end of his contract he'll be one of the top HWs to White.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Overeem was really struggling to stay at 205. He had to drastically reduce his food intake and stop weight lifting entirely to make that weight. Also, when he had that bad run of fights in '06/07 he was suffering with a lot of personal issues, as well as the weight issues. So the move to go up to HW was one he simply had to make, so that he could regain a healthy lifestyle. Going back to 8 meals a day and weight lifting with a guy the size of Alastair would definitely have an impact on his weight. The speed of his weight gain wasn't particularly drastic either, here are a few numbers:

Overeem's weight for Strikeforce on November 16, 2007:
224 lbs

Overeems weight for Dream.4 on June 15, 2008:
240 lbs

Overeems weight for Dream.12 on October 25, 2009:
253.5 lbs

The only query I have is the difference in his physique between the Shogun fight, and then the K-1 GP fight against Knaap just 4 months later, though again the actual numbers can't have been that large, as he was only 224 against Buentello. Sure, there's a possibility that Alistair roided, but I'm going to take his word for it, and believe that he's clean.


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Who has he fought in his career? I see some big names like Shogun, Arona, Werdum, Lil Nog and Liddell. You know what they have in common? He lost all of them. The biggest MMA win of the Reems career was over Vitor Belfort and that came during Belfort's rough patch when he was losing more than he was winning. Overeem's MMA career is really not impressive.


I agree with a lot of these comments. Almost all of his big fights he lost. And Belfort is a big MW/small LHW. That is like saying GSP is a top 5 MW right now. You can not justify that ranking because he hasn't beaten anybody in that weight class. Do we think if he went up he would be top 5. Definately. I like Overeem and think he is a tough guy but until he beats a top 5 or even top 10 HW he can not be considered top 10. Do i think he can beat some of them. Yes. But until he does he doesn't deserve to be there. Hell Jon Jones is one of my favorite fighters but he is borderline top 10 right now because he hasnt beaten a top 10 guy yet.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Bottom line...if he wants to be considered one of the best HWs in the world for MMA, then he needs to forcus more on MMA. You can't defend your title once in 3 years and expect to be a top guy. Until he focuses on his MMA career and actually participates in big MMA fights I don't see how you can rank him. Jon Jones has all the tools to be the 1st or 2nd best LHW in the world. Why isn't he ranked there? Because he hasn't beat any top level guys to get there. Reem is a higher ranked K-1 fighter than a MMA fighter because he actually competes in relevant fights in K-1. Beating Rogers and Paul Buentello and James Thompson doesn't earn you any sort of ranking in MMA.

I don't understand what is so hard to understand about this.


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## Magog (Jan 20, 2008)

Budhisten said:


> Dana speaks sence in this instance... Overeem _skillwise_ is easily top 10, yes... But who has he beaten? And more importantly, who has he beaten recently? The man has had 2 (TWO!) MMA-fights in close to 3 years or something, that cannot add up to a top 10 ranking, end o' story


Well I think people got all up in a huff about nothing.

He's ranked 8. 8 people. That's virtually nothing. If he was a fighter that just broke on the scene that would be something. But he's been around for ever and he's a ******* 8.

I don't personally have a problem with the spot because the heavy weight division isn't really all that packed at least once you get past the first 6-7 best fighters.

Objective response. Could Uber reem beat Struve? Yep. Has Struve done more than uber reem in mma at *heavy weight*?

**** yeh.
Does anyone think uber reem will fight any big names this year? Maybe one. I don't see him testing himself in the cage.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Oops he did it again. Todd Duffee completely decimated in less than a minute. K1 champ, Strikeforce Champ, Dream Champ = #1 HW in the world. Sorry Dana.


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

Yojimbo said:


> Oops he did it again. Todd Duffee completely decimated in less than a minute. K1 champ, Strikeforce Champ, Dream Champ = #1 HW in the world. Sorry Dana.


People can't be serious about calling Overeem #1, you just can't be. The has never beaten a top 10 HW. No, not just top 10 but he hasn't beaten anyone even close to top 10. (The idea of Rogers being top 10 is utterly lol). Two of his most recent wins were against Fujita (who had lost 3 of his last 4 before Overeem) and James Thompson, loser of 8 of his last 10 coming to the Overeem fight. James Thompson. JAMES FREAKING THOMPSON. You can't be a top 10 fighter, let alone #1, unless you actually beat a top 10 fighter.

Duffee is his most impressive win, a guy with 8 fights who got cut from the UFC. 

Overeem has looked very very good against very very bad fighters. Is he top 10? Maybe. Probably in fact but until he actually beats a top 10 fighter we don't know for sure.


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## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

It's pretty simple.

Beating Todd Duffee, Brett Rogers, Kazuyuki Fujita, James Thompson and Tony Sylvester doesn't get you into the top 10.

Is Overeem capable of beating a top 10 HW? Probably. Who knows maybe he is good enough to be top 3.

However until he actually fights a top 10 HW we won't know.

It's no different than Fedor. If you don't compete against the best you don't get ranked with the best.


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## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

Danm2501 said:


> Overeem was really struggling to stay at 205. He had to drastically reduce his food intake and stop weight lifting entirely to make that weight. Also, when he had that bad run of fights in '06/07 he was suffering with a lot of personal issues, as well as the weight issues. So the move to go up to HW was one he simply had to make, so that he could regain a healthy lifestyle. Going back to 8 meals a day and weight lifting with a guy the size of Alastair would definitely have an impact on his weight. The speed of his weight gain wasn't particularly drastic either, here are a few numbers:
> 
> Overeem's weight for Strikeforce on November 16, 2007:
> 224 lbs
> ...




During the period Overeem's weight went up he fought exclusively in Japan where there is zero testing for PED.

And came up with every excuse under the sun why he couldn't come back to the US and defend his Strikeforce title.

Hmmm...I wonder why?


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Heavyweight is and always will be the weakest divison. There is a bit of an arguement for him being top ten, I dont really think he is because Brett Rogers is his best win and I think Rogers is terrible. Some people had Rogers in there top ten when Overeem beat him, (not me) so I get the arguement. But Overeem is def not top five right now. Ranking him that high is crazy right now.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Wherever he ranks, I just want to see Overeem in the UFC.


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

osmium said:


> That list is a joke. *Kharitonov, Rogers, and Buentello are better wins than anyone Bigfoot has ever fought.* Roy Nelson hasn't beaten anyone as good as Rogers even in his career and Barnett hasn't beaten anyone since 2006 and can't even fight in the USA because he can't stop using steroids.
> 
> You base your rankings on personal bias not who you beat.


you are aware that bigfoot has fought werdum, arlovski, and ricco rodriguez? 


KillerShark1985 said:


> *Why on earth would the president of the UFC admit that SF has the best 2 HW's in the world.* Dana knows the score he is just trying to keep the illusion alive that the UFC is superior in every way, and from LW to MW it is far superior without question, but at LHW is close and debatable (currently standing and forgetting how strong the UFC LHE division once was after it first merged with Pride), but at HW SF is the winner.


wait would that be overeem and werdum or werdum and fedor?:confused02:



Yojimbo said:


> So it means nothing to you that two fighters who you have on your top 10 list are not eager to test their skills against Overeem. *It's incredibly obvious that Werdum and Fedor have a ton of trepidation when it comes to fighting The Reem. When people who are widely considered supreme badasses are scared to fight a dude, I'm thinking that dude their scared to fight is the real badass.*


this sounds like an impossible to argue or disprove rankings system.:thumb02:

overeem hasn't beaten anyone relevant to be top ten, his record at HW is 13 - 2. and he already lost to werdum (pre horse meat if that makes you feel better about it.) he should be top ten but if you rank all hw based on win in their div, he cant be there yet. when he beat werdum, bigfoot, or fedor than nobody can argue top ten, until then in *HW MMA* antonio silva and frank mir (borderline top ten) have a more impressive record.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Thelegend said:


> you are aware that bigfoot has fought werdum, arlovski, and ricco rodriguez?
> 
> 
> wait would that be overeem and werdum or werdum and fedor?:confused02:
> ...


But why does he have to beat Fedor or Werdum? :confused02:

they both haven't fought anybody in years. It's really all speculations if both would really be able to beat UFC's 6, 7, 8, 9.. same goes for Overeem. :dunno:

Just because Fedor has beaten good guys years ago, doesn't tell us he would do it again today.

And Werdum get's ranked because he beats Fedor lol :thumb02:


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