# Is shogun as good as the hype



## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

Look guys I think shogun is an impressive fighter no doubt but I thing people are getting a little too excited. They are acting like he is an mleaching to run through jones and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon. Let's take a look at his ufc career. 
Lost to forest
beat a past prime chuck
Took him 3 rounds to ko an old mark Coleman 
And he beat machida. 
That is not the most impressive record Ive seen. 

Now I am not saying Jon jones Is going to kick his ass but he has a better chance then many fans are giving him.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Shogun is without a doupt The Best LHW in the World right now, no question!

The thing is he had surgery ones again and he might not be the same fighter anymore.. thats the only reason for me to believe that this fight is 50/50.

Otherwise Shogun should be a 80/20 favourite!

ahh.. let's say 70/30


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

americanfighter said:


> Look guys I think shogun is an impressive fighter no doubt but I thing people are getting a little too excited. They are acting like he is an mleaching to run through jones and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon. Let's take a look at his ufc career.
> Lost to forest
> beat a past prime chuck
> Took him 3 rounds to ko an old mark Coleman
> ...


Dude, have you looked at the odds? There is *much* support for Bones. Very few people are predicting Rua will run through him.

Right now, I think Rua will win. But that opinion changes with every passing fart.


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## Ryankmfdm (Sep 24, 2010)

I'd go as far as to say Shogun is underhyped.

For instance, I find it funny that there's no mention whatsoever of his Pride record in your post. Most UFC fans aren't aware of what a force he was before his knee problems started.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

The biggest thing, like someone mentioned already, is that Shogun is coming off of knee surgery. Other than that, Shogun's hype is warranted. His record is impressive, other than his stone age loss to sobral the guy has had terrible luck in all of his losses. His loss to coleman he accidentally broke his arm, his loss to Forrest he gassed cuz he just got out of knee surgery...his loss to Machida wasn't really a loss. Albet Jones has an impressive ass resume too, don't get me wrong he's my fave, to say Shogun is hyped is pretty ridiculous.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Ryankmfdm said:


> I'd go as far as to say Shogun is underhyped.
> 
> For instance, I find it funny that there's no mention whatsoever of his Pride record in your post. Most UFC fans aren't aware of what a force he was before his knee problems started.


That's quite irrelevant. We're talking about the time his going to take on Jon Jones, not how he beat everybody badly 5 years ago. His still a wrecking machine but not as good as he was in Pride.


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

Ryankmfdm said:


> I'd go as far as to say Shogun is underhyped.
> 
> For instance, I find it funny that there's no mention whatsoever of his Pride record in your post. Most UFC fans aren't aware of what a force he was before his knee problems started.


I agree.

Shogun was a monster in Pride, had a string of sloppy surgery related fights, then KO'd the "invincible" Machida after controversially losing to him.

He is, in my opinion, the best 205'er there is. I think he will beat Bones, not easily but I think he will do it, provided his knee does't act up.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

He wont beat Jones. What happen to Rua after he had knee surgery? Barely beat Coleman and had a bad fight against Chuck. If he comes in like that against JBJ, he will lose and lose big at that. 

Will we see the same Rua we saw KO Machida? Don't know... It will take 2 fights at least to get back to 100% fighting shape and by that time, he will be getting older and JBJ will be getting even better.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Spec0688 said:


> He wont beat Jones. What happen to Rua after he had knee surgery? Barely beat Coleman and had a bad fight against Chuck. If he comes in like that against JBJ, he will lose and lose big at that.
> 
> Will we see the same Rua we saw KO Machida? Don't know... It will take 2 fights at least to get back to 100% fighting shape and by that time, he will be getting older and JBJ will be getting even better.


But this time the recovery time was a little different, plus the medical care too. At least Dana said so :dunno:

also Ring Rust is not a norm!


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

What on earth are you babbling about?

Hype? He has been a top LHW for 6 or 7 years facing tons of top LHWs.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Rauno said:


> That's quite irrelevant. We're talking about the time his going to take on Jon Jones, not how he beat everybody badly 5 years ago. His still a wrecking machine but not as good as he was in Pride.


What makes you say this?

Injury is the only thing I can think of. He is without a doubt the most skilled fighter at 205. Injury has made him less consistent. 100% Shogun is one of the best fighters in the world.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Shogun Rua

19-4
16 (T)KO's, 1 Submission, 2 Decisions

UFC Light Heavyweight champion
PRIDE Middleweight Grand Prix Champion

Defeated Lyoto Machida, Chuck Liddell, Mark Coleman, Ricardo Arona, Alistair Overeem x2, Kevin Randleman, Antônio Rogério Nogueira, Rampage Jackson, Evangelista Santos, etc...

He is incredible.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

jonnyg4508 said:


> What on earth are you babbling about?
> 
> Hype? He has been a top LHW for 6 or 7 years facing tons of top LHWs.


What he has done for the past 6 or 7 years is not relevant only his recent actions because the all slow down and lose the edge eventually


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## Buakaw_GSP (Jan 9, 2011)

Jon Jones will have every chance to win this fight but man someone at least give the Champion some credit.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

americanfighter said:


> What he has done for the past 6 or 7 years is not relevant only his recent actions because the all slow down and lose the edge eventually


He just recently KO'd the enigma that was Machida, the guy who no body could even touch, he got shut down in the first round.

Hows that for relevancy.


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## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

So Silly. Can we please stop seeing this?

'X fighter isn't that good, yeah he beat X and X, but that what was a long time ago His win against X shouldn't count because he had a fractured skull, and X, well, we ALL know X was over hyped. Sure, there was the X fight, but THATS his only good win and we all know he got lucky, cause X had a crappy game plan'

Shogun, of ALL people, has a great MMA resume. There's retarded idea that for a fighter to be worthy of his hype he has to have knocked off of unending string of MMA legends.

And Shogun has actually done it! And still in reality, you'll not get the opportunity to fight everybody of worth in their prime. It's not just about record and names, its about looking at these fighter's abilities, and analyzing their performances. Records and histories are merely indications.


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## streetpunk08 (Jul 15, 2006)

Rauno said:


> That's quite irrelevant. We're talking about the time his going to take on Jon Jones, not how he beat everybody badly 5 years ago. His still a wrecking machine but not as good as he was in Pride.


Really? I think he's alot better now than in PRIDE, his striking has evolved dramatically imo, the only thing holding him back are the knee injuries.

In PRIDE he relied mostly on his speed, explosiveness and tenacity to overwhelm guys, he doesn't do that anymore. His footwork has improved alot and he uses that high guard to absorb alot of counter-punches very effectively. He puts his strikes together alot more effectively and sets them up alot better. He doesn't stay in the pocket and bang with guys nearly as much, if he doesn't get a good feel for an exchange he backs out and resets. In his last three fights specifically he actually somewhat utilizes gameplans to target a weakness and exploit it, in PRIDE Shogun and gameplan were never in the same sentence. He fights with alot more patience and intelligence now than in PRIDE, he's still explosive no doubt but not quite as reckless. The knee injuries are what's killing his career right now.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Newbs think Shogun is like 35-37 or something. The dude is the same age as GSP, he's not even 30 yet. And at Jones age instead of having beat cans on their way out like Bonnar/Vera/Vlad, he had destroyed guys like Rampage, Arona, Overeem, Lil Nog... 



But IMO he's just now coming into his prime (starting at the Liddell fight). He's with a camp that's done wonders for him. In Pride his boxing wasn't exactly great, he kept a really low guard and he threw hands looking for a clinch instead of looking to actually hit them. Just watch the Diabate fight, he was getting lit up - of course Diabate was probably one of the best strikers in the world at that point.



But now his hands are amazing, he's throwing those leg kicks like he's trying to cut trees in half, his BJJ is insane and he actually game plans now.


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## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

Im not sold on all the Shogun hype....

people are making it seem like he is Super-Fedor.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> Newbs think Shogun is like 35-37 or something. The dude is the same age as GSP, he's not even 30 yet. * And at Jones age instead of having beat cans on their way out like Bonnar/Vera/Vlad, he had destroyed guys like Rampage, Arona, Overeem, Lil Nog...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Urgh...


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> He just recently KO'd the enigma that was Machida, the guy who no body could even touch, he got shut down in the first round.
> 
> Hows that for relevancy.


There are huge holes in his game that make him nothing once exploited. Hell if you look at my posting history I was the first to spot them after his fight with rashad. Namely leg kicks then once he gets kicked in the legs he comes out of his game plan and got koed. 

I admit that was an impressive win but hisfights with Coleman and forest he wasn't too impressive and ontop of that he is injured.

All I am saying is that Jon has a better chance than many fans are giving them.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

americanfighter said:


> There are huge holes in his game that make him nothing once exploited. Hell if you look at my posting history I was the first to spot them after his fight with rashad. Namely leg kicks then once he gets kicked in the legs he comes out of his game plan and got koed.
> 
> I admit that was an impressive win but hisfights with Coleman and forest he wasn't too impressive and ontop of that he is injured.
> 
> All I am saying is that Jon has a better chance than many fans are giving them.


What are you talking about, Jones is the overwhelming favourite for this fight. If any thing, this thread should be titled; "Is Jones as good as the hype"?


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> What are you talking about, Jones is the overwhelming favourite for this fight. If any thing, this thread should be titled; "Is Jones as good as the hype"?


I am just talking about peole I have talked to an certine post on this forum.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I can't believe somebody actually said Shogun isn't as good now as he was in Pride. Your right he isn't as good he is better. Shogun in Pride threw much more wild strikes with much less precision. Shogun today throws much more accurate strikes and while maintaining a better defensive guard. His striking has evolved to what it is today from something much more similar to what Wanderlei throws.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

This thread is just naïve, uninformed. Shogun's record speaks for itself, if that's not enough then try watching the fights... All-star list of beaten opponents, 17 of those 19 are stoppages, 2 of his 4 losses are pure bad fortune, and the dude has not hit 30 yet.

The word hype in this case is just ignorant, Rua is more than proven.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> Shogun is without a doupt The Best LHW in the World right now, no question!
> 
> The thing is he had surgery ones again and he might not be the same fighter anymore.. thats the only reason for me to believe that this fight is 50/50.
> 
> ...


Injury free, he's one of the baddest men on the planet. I think he takes A. Silva if he's in average fight shape. You can look around at records and Rua has one of the most impressive at least IMO.

Jones is most likly going to get crushed.

Anyone can be beat or have a bad showing but Rua is a beast win or lose.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

americanfighter said:


> What he has done for the past 6 or 7 years is not relevant only his recent actions because the all slow down and lose the edge eventually


Suuuure.

The dude is still young. If it weren't for knee injuries his start to his UFC career would have been better.

He had beat MAchida the first time when he was undefeated and no one thought he could be touched. Then when he wasn't given the decision he came back and ended him in the 1st round. 

Bottom line is after 7 years of tearing it up in the sport...hype is no longer involved. How can someone have hype when they have been there done that for years? It makes little sense.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Sekou said:


> Im not sold on all the Shogun hype....
> 
> people are making it seem like he is Super-Fedor.


Who is? The people who haven't realize that Jones' is special? Or his nut-hugger fans?

I haven't seen anyone act like he is a god. Have you seen anyone rank him in the top 3 P4P list recently? Jones is the favorite in this fight.

Where is this coming from? People are acting like he is super-fedor? Where? Or are we just making things up?


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

Hype? No, Shogun is the real deal.

He battered Rampage in PRIDE, brought the Machida Era to a screeching halt, destroyed Mark Coleman and Chuck Liddell violently knocked out Alistair Overeem twice, bashed Ricardo Arona's brains into the canvas in PRIDE. And of course had one of the most amazing fights in MMA history against Lil' Nog, a fight in which any other man may have been KO'ed by the vicious shot Lil' Nog landed on him.

You say hype? What hype? He's the greatest 205 lb fighter in MMA history. It's undeniable and the truth is he's more than likely going to reign over 205 for a LOOONG time.


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## Bruce Buffer (Jun 29, 2009)

No, he's much better!


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## LTrain5563 (Feb 16, 2011)

I don't think either is being hyped too much because both are great fighters. Shogun was a killer in Pride. Had some injury problems where he struggled a bit. And now is regaining form. Bones has been destorying folks in dramtic fashion. He's shown versiblity to fight where ever the fight goes. 

Yes the competion Jones has faced isn't as good as Shogun, but that is something that is expected when looking at the dispairity in the pro experience between the two. Any fighter whose has been on top for a while is going to have more quality wins then a fighter just reaching the championship level for the first time. While Bones Comp. level is not as impressive as Shogun's
it's not like he hasn't fought good enough opponets to judge his skill level pretty accuratly. While Hamill, Vlady, Vera, and Bader don't stack up with Shoguns resume, they are all pretty decent fighters. A solid resume for someone as young as Jones.

*The thing that makes Bones so intriguing is he still has that sense of invicablity surrounding him. None of his opponets have had an answer to his athletism and skill. No one has revealed his weaknesses. That's what makes this fight so exciting. Young buck who no has had an answer for versus vertern who has tons of big fight experience. Will Shogun be the first one to exploit Bones holes or will Shogun prove to be a stepping stone to future greatness?* 

How's that for Hype.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Shogun isnt the complete fighter he has major holes in his game , primarily the weak grappling ( wrestling aspect ) , jones is the opposite he is weak at striking and what happens when a guy comes to take a striker down who is susceptible to Take downs ?


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

First person to EVER beat Machida. Someone who _HAD _run though or embarassed everyone he'd ever fought (except BJ Penn). 

KOed Liddell coming off the win over Silva. (At this point his chin wasn't suspect, he'd only been KOed by Rampage for the title since the TKO to Couture). 

The Coleman fight was a joke, without question. 

Against Griffin. Takanori Gomi described fighting in the UFC as "Fighting American." Just like Gomi when he explained this, Shogun didn't know how to fight in a cage. There was more than once when they were up against the cage, he looked to the ref expecting to be moved to the center. Multiple times he was in a postion to use the cage to sweep, but didn't because he didn't know how to. He'd never trained in or fought in a cage before the UFC. Look at Marloes Coenen, the commentators got it right (for once), she may not train JJ in a cage. Which significantly limited her defensive options. The same principles apply to Shogun. He was beaten by a smart fighter who understood how to fight in the cage.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

***** de Amigo said:


> Shogun isnt the complete fighter he has major holes in his game , primarily the weak grappling ( wrestling aspect ) , jones is the opposite he is weak at striking and what happens when a guy comes to take a striker down who is susceptible to Take downs ?


This fight goes to the ground and I expect Rua to put on a clinic, bones has some impressive wins but nobody he has fought is as experienced and as talented as Rua. He won't be easy to take down either.

I expect this fight to be a ko for one of them.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Squirrelfighter said:


> KOed Liddell coming off the win over Silva. (At this point his chin wasn't suspect, he'd only been KOed by Rampage for the title since the TKO to Couture).


Chuck had just been brutally knocked out by Rashad.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Squirrelfighter said:


> First person to EVER beat Machida. Someone who _HAD _run though or embarassed everyone he'd ever fought (except BJ Penn).
> 
> KOed Liddell coming off the win over Silva. (At this point his chin wasn't suspect, he'd only been KOed by Rampage for the title since the TKO to Couture).
> 
> ...


Shogun was fine with the cage, it was just his cardio that failed him. griffin really didn't take the fight over until the second-half of the second round.


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## Shady1 (Jan 27, 2011)

if anything Shogun is a bit underhyped by the UFC, but when he beats Jones all those who are like he is over rated will be like I knew he would win


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Yes he is, as you mentioned his UFC career is quite patchy besides Machida, who I feel is mentally a much weaker fighter post-Belt. 

And Shogun's pride career was very long ago and filled with Stomps, Soccer kicks and brawling old Chute Boxe style stuff that would either be illegal or suicide in the more evolved MMA scene. Might as well cite Wanderlei, CroCop and Nog's pride careers as reasons why they would destroy all mere mortals.

I for one will not be shocked when Bones destroys him with as much ease as he has everyone else. The amount of Shogun "greatest fighter ever" sentiment on this forum is ridiculous considering he has been notoriously inconsistent in his UFC career and the same question marks that supposedly caused those bad performances (knee surgeries etc.) are still going to be a factor as he comes in to fight the hungriest prodigy in the LHW division.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> Yes he is, as you mentioned *his UFC career is quite patchy besides Machida*, who I feel is mentally a much weaker fighter post-Belt.
> 
> And Shogun's pride career was very long ago and filled with Stomps, Soccer kicks and brawling old Chute Boxe style stuff that would either be illegal or suicide in the more evolved MMA scene. Might as well cite Wanderlei, CroCop and Nog's pride careers as reasons why they would destroy all mere mortals.
> 
> I for one will not be shocked when Bones destroys him with as much ease as he has everyone else. The amount of Shogun "greatest fighter ever" sentiment on this forum is ridiculous considering he has been notoriously inconsistent in his UFC career and the same question marks that supposedly caused those bad performances (knee surgeries etc.) are still going to be a factor as he comes in to fight the hungriest and most unstoppable looking prodigy in the LHW division.


I find it VERY funny that a Chuck Liddell fan is suggesting someone is overrated.

Don't worry, Jones might get to join Liddell in the I just got knocked out by Shogun department, with Machida and Coleman.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

LOL

When i read the thread title i though it was the OP just trying to be sarcastic: 

is shogun as good as the hype = is shogun as good as *"jones"* - because so many people have jones=hype tattooed on the insight of their eyelids.

Back on topic: There is no hype surroundig Shogun:
- 10 year MMA career
- 19-4 MMA record
- great all arround striking. One of the most aggressive fighters in the history of MMA
- 2 major titles: UFC and Pride
- fought against the best fighters of his generation

There is no hype *(F.UCK how i hate this word!!!!!!!)*
regarding Shogun! Pls....
It's a shame he had those knee problems, that kinda slowed him down a bit.
I have big respect for SHogun, because he reminds me of my first days as a MMA fan - while watching Pride. It was a pleasure watching him destroy his opponents.

_BUT, i will be rooting for Jones on March 19 nonetheless.  i see Jones as the new Rua - their careers are incredibly similar up to this point - in all aspects._


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

slapshot said:


> This fight goes to the ground and I expect Rua to put on a clinic, bones has some impressive wins but nobody he has fought is as experienced and as talented as Rua. He won't be easy to take down either.
> 
> I expect this fight to be a ko for one of them.


sig bet ? pm me


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

yeah the light heavyweight champion is overrated, holy sht how many times do i have to explain to you ignorant haters why shogun is the best lhw in the world, and you always have the same arguments, limba is a jones sack swinger but he knows shogun is a beast which is why he is a good poster because biasism never gets in the way for him. lets see youngest ever pride GP winner(vsed destructive fighters in that GP too) light heavyweight UFC champ right now, destroyed machida after being robbed on a decision, even when he has had surgery and has had ring rust and cardio issues he has still won ala coleman II and liddell, he was not so fortunate with griffin though. now i am not saying by any means that jones stands no chance but i do think shogun will still KO jones should his cardio be as decent as it was in the first machida fight. haters gonna hate, shogun is overrated?...... moronic thread just asking for trouble


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

EliteUndisputed said:


> I find it VERY funny that a Chuck Liddell fan is suggesting someone is overrated.
> 
> Don't worry, Jones might get to join Liddell in the I just got knocked out by Shogun department, with Machida and Coleman.


No, I'm suggesting Chuck is past his prime and there's no shame in that. A prime Chuck would blow Shogun out of the water.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> No, I'm suggesting Chuck is past his prime and there's no shame in that. A prime Chuck would blow Shogun out of the water.


No way shogun would KO him


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> No, I'm suggesting Chuck is past his prime and there's no shame in that. A prime Chuck would blow Shogun out of the water.


Riiiiggghhhtt. Like a prime Chuck would blow Rampage out of the water. Wait, what?


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> No, I'm suggesting Chuck is past his prime and there's no shame in that. A prime Chuck would blow Shogun out of the water.


*stares blankly to check if he is really serious* thats fine i believe a prime sotiropoulous could beat mike tyson in a boxing match in 1995


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## c-dub (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm a fairly new fan to MMA, but from what I've seen of Rua, I'd say that he is a pretty impressive fighter. He has had some dissapointing losses but his skill set and experience are very formidable. He beat Machida first...big whoop, it turns out to be a matter of cutting off his movement *gasp* just like when they all figured out to beat Lesnar all you had to do was punch him in the face really hard... 

Sorry back on track, I see a lot of Rua fans here mostly because of his Pride days, same thing with Wandy and Cro-Cop...PRide days are the old days and imho don't mean a whole lot since the MMA game has evolved so much.

Jones has scared the hell out of every opponent he's fought because he's unpredictable and talented. Rua has derailed hype trains and ended eras before so I'm confident that Rua can figure out how to beat Jones, I just hope it doesn't take a 5 round controversy to shock him into "whoop A$$" mode this time.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

There aren't that many fighters that have been hyped up for a reason, but Shogun is one of those men.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Liddellianenko said:


> A prime Chuck would blow Shogun out of the water.


I'm not so sure about that. If we're talking about Pride Shogun then I could give it to you since his style back then left him open for Chuck's counters. However against the Shogun we saw in his last 3 UFC fights, Chuck would get his ass kicked. The problem is that Shogun's learned patience and gameplanning, he's more than happy enough to stay on the outside and kick the crap out of Chuck's legs while using his speed and movement to keep from being countered. Give him a couple rounds of leg kicks and Chcuk's not going to be moving too well and the power and accuracy of his counters is going to be degraded as well. That's when Shogun can either come in for the kill or just keep picking him apart till the fight ends.

If we go back to the Chuck vs. Shogun fight, you'll notice that Chuck was limping a bit after Shogun landed 4th leg kick on him. Imagine what would happen if he got 5-6 solid kicks in there.


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## Ryankmfdm (Sep 24, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> No, I'm suggesting Chuck is past his prime and there's no shame in that. A prime Chuck would blow Shogun out of the water.


THAT was a lie.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

The real question should be, "Is Jones as good as the hype?" After all, he is the unproven fighter going into this one. Not Shogun.


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## LTrain5563 (Feb 16, 2011)

HitOrGetHit said:


> The real question should be, "Is Jones as good as the hype?" After all, he is the unproven fighter going into this one. Not Shogun.


see unproven fighter thread.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Honestly I think he's better than the hype. The guy is an underdog against a new, young, relatively untested fighter. 
welcome to the machida era, which he abruptly ended, then nailed the coffin with a brutal KO.


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

In my opinion there is no 'hype' surrounding Shogun, he's proved time and time again he's one of the best fighters on the planet.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> I for one will not be shocked when Bones destroys him with as much ease as he has everyone else. The amount of Shogun "greatest fighter ever" sentiment on this forum is ridiculous considering he has been notoriously inconsistent in his UFC career and the same question marks that supposedly caused those bad performances (knee surgeries etc.) are still going to be a factor as he comes in to fight the hungriest prodigy in the LHW division.


So if Shogun isn't the best 205er ever...then who is? 

People that think Jones is no match are purely underrating the level Jones is at not overrating Shogun.

Why does everyone try to dismiss knee injuries? Do people think a healthy Shogun would look like that vs. Coleman? I don't get it. Other than a few post knee injury fights his career has been amazing.



Liddellianenko said:


> No, I'm suggesting Chuck is past his prime and there's no shame in that. A prime Chuck would blow Shogun out of the water.


My favorite fighter of all time is Chuck.

But this could be the dumbest thing I have ever heard in this place.

Thanks for the laugh!


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

LTrain5563 said:


> see unproven fighter thread.


I did and responded. However if we are talking about who is hyped and who is proven as we are in this thread, Jones is the unproven fighter whereas Shogun is the proven one.

If you would like to debate about proven/unproven then we can but in that thread.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

People throw around the word hype way too often.

Never knew it could be used for a guy that has been in the game 10 years and has faced countless top talent. The word in this instance really makes no sense at all. 

I don't see Dana calling him the best P4P fighter like he does Silva. Or hang from his sack like he does Penn's. I rarely even see Shogun. For how exciting he is, he shoul dbe mentioned more often.


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Never knew it could be used for a guy that has been in the game 10 years and has faced countless top talent. The word in this instance really makes no sense at all.


Exactly! You get hype surrounding a fighter, when he is up and coming, and looking really really good against lesser competition. When a fighter has been around for years, won the Pride Grand Prix and the UFC Light heavyweight belt, whatever hype surrounded him when he was younger and less experienced has been well and truely proven.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> So if Shogun isn't the best 205er ever...then who is?
> 
> People that think Jones is no match are purely underrating the level Jones is at not overrating Shogun.
> 
> Why does everyone try to dismiss knee injuries? Do people think a healthy Shogun would look like that vs. Coleman? I don't get it. Other than a few post knee injury fights his career has been amazing.


Liddell and Wanderlei have had better careers so both are above him in terms of the best 205 Fighters to live......



Mckeever said:


> Riiiiggghhhtt. Like a prime Chuck would blow Rampage out of the water. Wait, what?


Griffin beat Jackson and Shogun so he is better than both by your logic. 

Like Shogun would blow Babalu out of the water. Wait , what ?


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Define better careers?

Liddell has been more in the spotlight and is the rockstar of the sport...but for a striker he faced very few strikers before he got too old. When he did (Rampage) he was beat. Then you have the way he went out.

Wandy is one of my favorites too. But besides Rampage twice and Hendo...he really runs out of great wins. Sakaraba perhaps. He went on a great run, but I'll take Shogun's top wins over Wandy's....and Shogun (injuries aside) is in what everyone says is the prime of a career. He has done most all of this before he even hit his prime.

So I disagree. Wandy and Chuck have had more storied careers. But I'll take Shogun's wins over either of theirs. Then in addition look at how Shogun has lost over the years...breaking his arm vs. Coleman on a freak accident...losing a dec. more people thought he won vs. Machida....gassed coming of knee injury to lose to Forrest.

I am a bigger fan of Wandy and Chuck than Shogun. But I can't say either was better at 205, when you consider who Shogun has beat...and how many prime years he should have left. Shogun is/has done it in both Pride and the UFC. Wandy and Chuck can't say that.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

When I am talking about the hype I am not just talking about this fight I am talking about shogun as a fighter. When he hit the UFC everyone was drooling and going crazy saying he was going to be the best ever and is going to run through the lhw class. However he hasnt had the most impressive record but got the belt non the less. Now that he is champ this is his chance prove it by defending his title and I think Jon has a legitimate shot a ending the shogun hype.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

americanfighter said:


> Look guys I think shogun is an impressive fighter no doubt but I thing people are getting a little too excited. They are acting like he is an mleaching to run through jones and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon. Let's take a look at his ufc career.
> Lost to forest
> beat a past prime chuck
> Took him 3 rounds to ko an old mark Coleman
> ...


He's not over hyped. He's the only guy to stop Machida. He's still very young and continually improving. He probably has the best leg strikes in mma. I think he'll best Jones and stay champ for quite sometime.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

Calminian said:


> He's not over hyped. He's the only guy to stop Machida. He's still very young and continually improving. He probably has the best leg strikes in mma. I think he'll best Jones and stay champ for quite sometime.


As I said about the machida fight machida had major holes in his game that even I spotted out after his fight with rashad once exploited his whole game falls apart. Impressive. None the less but not enough to make me think he is going to be champ for a long time.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

americanfighter said:


> As I said about the machida fight machida had major holes in his game that even I spotted out after his fight with rashad once exploited his whole game falls apart. Impressive. None the less but not enough to make me think he is going to be champ for a long time.


I think you have to take injuries into account also. I initially counted him out after the Colman and Griffin bouts, but was a bit hasty. He's proved he's the best at 100% with a string of impressive victories.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

americanfighter said:


> When I am talking about the hype I am not just talking about this fight I am talking about shogun as a fighter. When he hit the UFC everyone was drooling and going crazy saying he was going to be the best ever and is going to run through the lhw class. However he hasnt had the most impressive record but got the belt non the less. Now that he is champ this is his chance prove it by defending his title and I think Jon has a legitimate shot a ending the shogun hype.


How does 1 good fighter beating another good fighter end this "hype".

If Shogun loses to Jones I won't consider him much less of a fighter. Jones is a beats and is favored in that fight.

I don't understand what people don't get. JONES IS THE FAVORITE. Of course he has a solid chance and beating Shogun.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

jonnyg4508 said:


> How does 1 good fighter beating another good fighter end this "hype".
> 
> If Shogun loses to Jones I won't consider him much less of a fighter. Jones is a beats and is favored in that fight.
> 
> I don't understand what people don't get. JONES IS THE FAVORITE. Of course he has a solid chance and beating Shogun.


I know jones is the favorite here but there has Ben hype surounding shogun ever since he entered the ufc now he is champ so this is his opportunity to get a bunch of wins an prove he is the best. If he loses then he has to climb the ladder again. Jon is a great fighter and with a win here he can make a point and star a run and that is what the hype has said he is going to do from the beginning. Now that jones is the favorite and could win then shogun doesnt live up to the hype original surrounding him.


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## Big_Charm (Jan 7, 2011)

limba said:


> LOL
> 
> When i read the thread title i though it was the OP just trying to be sarcastic:
> 
> ...


Great points as usual Limba! :thumbsup:

I too, thought this topic was based on sarcasm... now I'm really starting to wonder if people actually watched MMA pre 2006...:confused02:

The word hype and Shogun should never be in the same sentence. I think people are just waiting to jump all over a great fighter once they lose. Shogun has proved to everyone why he is #1 in all regards. 

He captured the Pride title at such an early age...and to that point, destroyed the best competition along the way.

People need to look at the whole picture...he had some very unfortunate events that led to losses (Coleman fight #1, freak loss due to injury) and a bad rap with his knee surgeries not recovering properly.

I don't really want to dig any deeper because I see no point... he's ranked as the best Light Heavyweight in the world


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## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> How does 1 good fighter beating another good fighter end this "hype".
> 
> If Shogun loses to Jones I won't consider him much less of a fighter. Jones is a beats and is favored in that fight.
> 
> I don't understand what people don't get. *JONES IS THE FAVORITE.* Of course he has a solid chance and beating Shogun.


Not saying that Jones doesn't have a good chance of winning and I understand that in betting he is the favorite. However, what is the logic of having Jones as the favorite.

We all agree Shogun is the more experienced, more calm and cool during pressure fights such as championship fights, which Jones hasn't even done once. That's why he has that experience advantage.

Shogun is also the champion. How can a challenger have better odds to win a fight against the champion. Has the challenger beaten better fighters than the champion, no. Has the challenger been much more dominant than the champion, no. So, why is he the favorite. 

This isn't like Penn Vs Edgar 2 where the first fight could have really gone either way and that's why many still considered Penn the champion. This situation is nothing like that, Jones has not proven that he is a champion. He hasn't beaten championship contenders like Rampage and Machida. Yet, still he is the favorite. The logic is really absurd.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

americanfighter said:


> there has Ben hype surounding shogun ever since he entered the ufc now he is champ


This is all I needed to read.

There was hype. Now he is Champ. So obviously he lived up to the hype.

Do I expect him to rattle off 7 title defenses in a row? No. The division is too good and Jones/Davis look like either could be a next generation fighter.

If getting the UFC belt isn't living up to the hype...then you are looking way too far into it. What more does the guy need to do to justify that he is an elite fighter. 

Pride and UFC Champ.


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## Pound&Mound (Dec 10, 2007)

americanfighter said:


> I know jones is the favorite here but there has Ben hype surounding shogun ever since he entered the ufc now he is champ so this is his opportunity to get a bunch of wins an prove he is the best. If he loses then he has to climb the ladder again. Jon is a great fighter and with a win here he can make a point and star a run and that is what the hype has said he is going to do from the beginning. Now that jones is the favorite and could win then shogun doesnt live up to the hype original surrounding him.



There's no hype for Shogun, it's always been knee injury after knee injury and cardio problems because of the knee injury. Hence the loss to Forrest and the horrible Coleman win where he was gassed as hell. And then you look at the Machida 1 fight where he was not anywhere near as gassed after 5 rounds.


Shogun has always been a top fighter, just inconsistent because of the injuries and questionable cardio coming back from the injury.


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## LTrain5563 (Feb 16, 2011)

I sort of...kind of.. understand a little why some people might use Shogun's name and hype in the same sentence. Of course you would have had to be unfamilar with Pride. 

Instead of the word hype I would go with the word builded up. He was build up by the UFC executives and rightly so. He is one of the biggest people they ever signed. Of course they would build him up, because finally he was under their banner.

After so much talk about his skills, he did kinda of disappointed in his first few fights. Not to mention the extensive layoff in between. Many might have figured that these poor preformance was due to a better level of competion in the UFC. Of course those who have closely follow MMA for a while and seen his Pride fights, knew that these performances did not represent his true skills. When most found out that he had been struggled with knee injuries during this people, many belived it was simply excuses for poor performance. 

Finally, in his last few fights, fans who didn't see his Pride fights, finally got to see what everone was raving about. He finally looked like his old self. 

Many people have mentioned that Bones is being rushed into this title shot. I think in many peoples mind (those who unfamiliar with Pride), Shogun too was rushed to a title shot against Machida. I mean if you just looked at his UFC performances pre-Machida, I too would have wonder why he got the shot. I mean he loss to the heavy underdog in Griffin in his first UFC fight, He would have lost to Coleman if he didn't KO him in the last minute of the fight, and had an impressive Ko to Chuck, who seen as past his prime. 

If it wasn't for his impressive resume from Pride, he would never have gotten the shot. If he would have had another poor performance against Machida the UFC would have looked stupid for tossing him in with as little as he had done in the UFc up to that point. They, however, knew he was finally 100%, and looked like geniouses for doing so.

I'm not going to lie, I've watched most (but not all) of Shogun's Pride fights. I knew that he was better than his UFC performances. Even knowing that, I thought they gave him the shot earlier than they would have most other fighters in the same position. 

So that's I kind of...sort of..see how some people use his name and hype in the same sentences.

I believe that once you have win the title, all that sould go out the window. No fighters who has won the UFC title is undeserving of the hype they have gotten.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Define better careers?
> 
> Liddell has been more in the spotlight and is the rockstar of the sport...but for a striker he faced very few strikers before he got too old. When he did (Rampage) he was beat. Then you have the way he went out.
> 
> ...


I disagree , Liddell was fighting the best guys in his organisation at the time.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> I disagree , Liddell was fighting the best guys in his organisation at the time.


Hector Lombard is fighting the best guys in his organization...doesn't mean he is the best MW.

Wandy and Chuck are just more of big stars.

Shogun has beat the same or better competition and is still young enough to have many more quality fights barring chronic injury. 

If he isn't the best 205er ever then he will be pretty soon. Sort of like GSP over Hughes at 170. People could still argue Hughes is the best WW ever...but GSP will catch him sooner rather than later. 

Shogun was wrecking people in the past in Pride. Now he still finds a way to be the champ of the UFC when there has been a whole new breakthrough in MMA with all new talent. He could dominate in 2 different eras. To me that is a better career. Other than getting submitted by Sobral early in his career...Shogun's losses aren't conclusive.


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## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

I wonder if the hype is as good as Shogun??


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

I don't think Shogun is going to run through Bones. I think it'll be a good fight. I think Shogun is going to be hindered by all of the surgeries but he'll have an advantage in experience. Bones of course has youth, confidence and ridiculous reach and wrestling on his side.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> No, I'm suggesting Chuck is past his prime and there's no shame in that. A prime Chuck would blow Shogun out of the water.


Chuck got blown out of the water by the elite Light Heavyweights when he was in his prime. Jeremy Horn and Babalu Sobral aren't elite. Plain and simple, the only good win he had during his run as Champ was the Couture wins, the only other time he fought an elite Light Heavyweight his corner threw in the towel to save him.

The Shogun of 2005 would have destroyed the Chuck of 2005 worse than he did the Chuck of 2009.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

locnott said:


> I wonder if the hype is as good as Shogun??


Hmmmmmm


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Shogun at 100% is the best LHW in the world(unless Anderson Silva Moves up).


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Hector Lombard is fighting the best guys in his organization...doesn't mean he is the best MW.
> 
> Wandy and Chuck are just more of big stars.
> 
> ...



Hence why i said Liddell AND Wanderlei are the best rather than saying one i said both. 

Shogun isnt the best LHW of all time one of them two are pick and choose as you see fit.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> He just recently KO'd the enigma that was Machida, the guy who no body could even touch, he got shut down in the first round.
> 
> Hows that for relevancy.


*SIXTH ROUND*, or did you forget that Shogun had a previous 25 minute session with him that was taped and experienced both in the fight and over the months of training to find a ***** in his armor? 

I believe Shogun is overhyped but only slightly. I think Jones will crush him if only because of the style match-up. An aggressive striker vs a really long, unorthodox stright puncher favors the longer guy (provided he knows how to use that reach, which Bones does). The clinch work is also going to be heavily in Bones' favor as he's both taller and a Greco wrestler.

As far as grappling goes Shogun has decent TDD, but decent isn't nearly enough to stop Jones from hucking you around the ring like a 5 year old filled with helium. If he can take down Bader and Hammill at will and crush them, I don't see it being much different for Shogun. Of course Shogun will probably hit a sweep or two, and possibly catch him in a submission, but once those elbows start flying from Bones there isn't much hope.


Also, as far as PRIDE goes, I'm not sure I buy the hype from it. The legends of that organization have amounted to very little in the UFC. The only signing that amounted to anything is Rampage and I still think hes INCREDIBLY overrated. CroCop has done next to nothing, Wanderlei is 2-3, Almeida did well, but against lower level talent. Anderson is the one great fighter to emerge from PRIDE and I believe he came over way before the buyout, I hardly even consider him a PRIDE fighter, he fought just as much for MECCA. 

Others include:

Paulo Filho: Went 2-1 in the WEC MW division (when it was the "minor leagues" of the UFC)

Chonan: 1-3

Gono: 1-2

Henderson: 3-2, actually doing decent for himself only losing to the two champions of the LHW and MW divisions. Though, to be fair, I thought Rich beat him as well.

Herring: 1-2 (12-5 in PRIDE)

Big Nog: 3-2 with wins over herring and Sylvia. Losses come from Mir and Cain. 

All together decent, but IDK... food for thought I guess?


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> *SIXTH ROUND*, or did you forget that Shogun had a previous 25 minute session with him that was taped and experienced both in the fight and over the months of training to find a ***** in his armor?
> 
> I believe Shogun is overhyped but only slightly. I think Jones will crush him if only because of the style match-up. An aggressive striker vs a really long, unorthodox stright puncher favors the longer guy (provided he knows how to use that reach, which Bones does). The clinch work is also going to be heavily in Bones' favor as he's both taller and a Greco wrestler.
> 
> As far as grappling goes Shogun has decent TDD, but decent isn't nearly enough to stop Jones from hucking you around the ring like a 5 year old filled with helium. If he can take down Bader and Hammill at will and crush them, I don't see it being much different for Shogun. Of course Shogun will probably hit a sweep or two, and possibly catch him in a submission, but once those elbows start flying from Bones there isn't much hope.


Jones is the longer fighter but his striking really isn't all that great. If he stands with Shogun, he loses this fight. Shogun is the better, more versatile and much more powerful striker. The clinch will be interesting. Will Jones get a takedown or eat a vicious knee/elbow? We will need to wait and see.

On the ground, Jones makes careless mistakes like leaving his hand on someone's shoulder or on the mat. Shogun will capitalize on that should Jones keep making these mistakes.


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## streetpunk08 (Jul 15, 2006)

TraMaI said:


> An aggressive striker vs a really long, unorthodox stright puncher favors the longer guy (provided he knows how to use that reach, which Bones does).


Based on what? What great striker has Jones been able to keep on the outside with reach and straight's? The only striker he fought was Vera who he didn't stand with. Shogun specializes at getting on the inside and doing alot of damage with short quick strikes and he's fought much better and more experienced striker's than basically what equates to a rookie in Jones. I think people confuse unorthadox with world class or even effective. Jardine has unorthadox striking and he gets whooped by everybody in the standup. Across all of his fights how many of Jones' strikes are all that effective not to mention they leave you wide open and they expend alot of energy to throw.

Overeem has almost an identical reach to Jones but couples that reach with world class kickboxing skills and he struggled to keep Shogun at a distance. Jones' striking isnt anywhere near where Overeem's was even back in 2005. Basically I don't think the reach is a factor at all in this fight because Jones isn't a good enough or experienced enough striker to use it effectively against a striker of Shogun's calibur. I don't even think Jones will stand with Shogun, he's going to look for the TD immediately.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

I agree that he has worse striking but it's going ot be terribly hard for Shogun to get inside on him considering his reach is just stupid huge. As far as teh clinch, I don't see Shogun (6'1'') being able to easily hit Jones in the face with a knee (6'4''). Unless Jones dives for a double, which I've yet to see him do, I don't think it'll happen. He will probably eat a few elbows though. I think Shoguns saving grace in this fight will be his leg kicks. I see that as the only way to make Jones pay for missing consistently. If he does that over 2-3 rounds, he'll be able to get in on Jones and possibly blast him into unconciousness. Though if this fight goes to the ground early and Jones gains advantageous position, I don't see it ending well for Shogun./


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> I agree that he has worse striking but it's going ot be terribly hard for Shogun to get inside on him considering his reach is just stupid huge.


But when has Jones ever shown that he can use his reach against a good striker? He hasn't. He has never seen the explosiveness and technique of a Shogun. I think it will be harder for Jones to keep Shogun on the outside than it will for Shogun to get on the inside.



> As far as teh clinch, I don't see Shogun (6'1'') being able to easily hit Jones in the face with a knee (6'4''). Unless Jones dives for a double, which I've yet to see him do, I don't think it'll happen. He will probably eat a few elbows though.


It doesn't have to be to the face. A knee to the body can be devestating. Especially for a fighter like Jones who is lankier as opposes to having a little more meat around that area.



> I think Shoguns saving grace in this fight will be his leg kicks. I see that as the only way to make Jones pay for missing consistently. If he does that over 2-3 rounds, he'll be able to get in on Jones and possibly blast him into unconciousness.


I think you are vastly overrating Jones' striking. Shogun is a better striker in every facet of striking. Jones is a wrestler who hasn't ever fought a top striker.



> Though if this fight goes to the ground early and Jones gains advantageous position, I don't see it ending well for Shogun./


This is possible, however Shogun is probably the best grappler Jones will have faced. And yes, he trains with high level grapplers, but in the cage with Shogun will be an entirely different story. If he makes mistakes like he has in the past on the ground, Shogun will make him pay dearly.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

I agree with you on parts of that. Shogun is the best fighter (Both Striking and Grappling) that Jones has ever faced. The thing is though that Jones is more of an outside striker with huge range and Shogun is more of an inside striker. I think Jones will use that range, pop in and pop out until he can get him to the floor. In no way am I saying Jones won't get hit or possibly even floored if Shogun times him right in those exchanges either, but I think it will be easier for him to make Shogun miss than vice versa. As far as the ground game it's a totally different match up. Shogun posses a very, very slick guard, but Jones has some serious top control and looks to pass quite often. If Shogun wants to be aggressive off his back and go for sweeps and subs (as is his tendency) I think he's going to get passed rather quick. Jones being on top at all is bad news for Shogun IMO as he has incredibly long limbs and apparently he hits like a piano being dropped on your face. It's really, really hard to do Jiu-Jitsu when your face is being punched and elbowed that hard. And the thing is that wrist control will do NOTHING against Bones. He still throws elbows from there and they still land flush. 

In summary, yes I give the stand up to Shogun, but only slightly and only if he can back bones up to the cage and get inside on him. He needs to wear on him over a couple rounds with countering kicks to slow him down and then jump in on him and go back to his inside fighting. If he stays outside beyond his range he's going to get torn up purely because Jones will be able to jab him to death there if nothing else. With Jackson behind him I'm sur ehe knows that he's going to have to use that reach effectively as well. 

I give the ground game to Jones unless Shogun hits something really quick and slick like. Jones is a very large man and he's all action once he's on top, I don't think Shogun is going to have the time to implement much of a gameplan off his back other than trying to stand up ASAP (which he should do, as he'll probably win the stand up).

EDIT: Also, I don't think I'm overrating Jones' striking. I may be underrating Shogun's a bit thinking about it, but Jones sure as hell knows how to use his length and finds huge range on his strikes. If you watch the Bader fight, the part that was standing up he kept his distance very, very well. Just inside his and outside Bader's.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> I agree that he has worse striking but it's going ot be terribly hard for Shogun to get inside on him considering his reach is just stupid huge. As far as teh clinch, I don't see Shogun (6'1'') being able to easily hit Jones in the face with a knee (6'4''). Unless Jones dives for a double, which I've yet to see him do, I don't think it'll happen. He will probably eat a few elbows though. I think Shoguns saving grace in this fight will be his leg kicks. I see that as the only way to make Jones pay for missing consistently. If he does that over 2-3 rounds, he'll be able to get in on Jones and possibly blast him into unconciousness. Though if this fight goes to the ground early and Jones gains advantageous position, I don't see it ending well for Shogun./


Go and watch Alistair Overeem vs Shogun Rua, both fights. Theres an example of how Shogun adapts to a long rangey opponent with a great reach advantage. I think he did pretty damn well.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

Yes reach is not a factor against Jones; Jones does not know how to use reach and straight punches. Props to whoever said Jones leaves his limbs in silly places, his BJJ is not sharp at all.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAAA!

Yeah Shogun sure deserves the hype. He's certainly not an overrated gassing ***** with nothing but brawling standup that gets tooled by a wrestler. And let's not forget his awesome guard, the man has mastered the new technique "elbow-eater-guard" .. it's wayyyy past that baby rubber guard stuff! 

Jones ain't ready for this ... he's too young, no experience. For that you need years of footage throwing stomps and soccer kicks. Jones is the overrated one, he hasn't faced anyone... not the amazing Forrest Griffins and the 95 year old Colemans.

Welcome the Jones era. All the delusional neg reppers can cry away the pain.


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## Alex_DeLarge_V2 (Mar 10, 2011)

Going from message board to message board, ABSOLUTELY NOT. People actually thought Shogun would dismantle Anderson Silva and even called Shogun a better striker.

And I already stated it in another thread, since when did Shogun have this amazing ground game? People called Jon Jones crazy, a noob, and laughed in his face when he said he could submit Shogun...as if Shogun has this wordly unmatchable ground game? Jones could have literally chosen how he wanted to finish that fight.

Seriously, Shogun was the most overrated fighter within the last year or so until tonight.

Edit: LAWL, the Shogun wagon is fuuuuming tonight.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAAA!
> 
> Yeah Shogun sure deserves the hype. He's certainly not an overrated gassing ***** with nothing but brawling standup that gets tooled by a wrestler. And let's not forget his awesome guard, the man has mastered the new technique "elbow-eater-guard" .. it's wayyyy past that baby rubber guard stuff!
> 
> ...


You're mean! 



Alex_DeLarge_V2 said:


> Seriously, Shogun was the most overrated fighter within the last year or so until tonight.


That's way too harsh.
Aftrall we are talking about the former Champ who defeated the former champ pretty easy.

Shogun is still the same guy. He hasn't lost his skills or stuff like that. I have him as Top 5 LHW easily.

But the reality is, Jones is a much better Mixed Martial Artist! Or like some people like to call him: special!

Simple as that!



SM33 said:


> Yes reach is not a factor against Jones; Jones does not know how to use reach and straight punches. Props to whoever said Jones leaves his limbs in silly places, his BJJ is not sharp at all.


OOUUCH!!


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## Alex_DeLarge_V2 (Mar 10, 2011)

limba said:


> That's way too harsh.
> Aftrall we are talking about the former Champ who defeated the former champ pretty easy.
> 
> Shogun is still the same guy. He hasn't lost his skills or stuff like that. I have him as Top 5 LHW easily.
> ...


Is it too harsh? The guy has gassed out in the first round in 3 of his 6 UFC fights. Beating Machida is a fantastic feather in your cap, but people were acting as if this guy was just the most well rounded son of a bitch on the earth. His ground game is that of overrated, and his striking is no where near as technical as many, many people claim it to be.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Alex_DeLarge_V2 said:


> Is it too harsh? The guy has gassed out in the first round in 3 of his 6 UFC fights. Beating Machida is a fantastic feather in your cap, but people were acting as if this guy was just the most well rounded son of a bitch on the earth. His ground game is that of overrated, and his striking is no where near as technical as many, many people claim it to be.




He definitely has some issues to sort out. Plus i believe the long lay off was big also. But i will stay by may claim and say he is definitely TOP 5 LHW. TOP 3 in fact.
He will be back. I would love to see him go against Rampage.
Hopefully the UFC can make that happen for their first visit to Japan, since buying Pride.

And also: i hate seeing people say - "he gassed himself out", as if Jones had nothing to do with Shogun TIRING the way he did.

Also: love how Jones used his hands to cover Shogun's airways and his elbow pushing down on Shogun's throat.
Making it even harder for him to fight.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

Yeah the elbow on the throat thing is actually illegal, would have had a big effect on Rua at that stage of the fight so it was dirty. Not as dirty as Schaub though, he was being a dick.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

SM33 said:


> Yeah the elbow on the throat thing is actually illegal, would have had a big effect on Rua at that stage of the fight so it was dirty. Not as dirty as Schaub though, he was being a dick.


Orly? Please point:

http://www.ufc.com/about/Rules

And before you say 11. , pressing down on the throat is not a "throat strike" or "grabbing" the trachea, or every choke would be illegal.

It's cute all the excuses that'll come now.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Alex_DeLarge_V2 said:


> *Is it too harsh? The guy has gassed out in the first round in 3 of his 6 UFC fights.* Beating Machida is a fantastic feather in your cap, but people were acting as if this guy was just the most well rounded son of a bitch on the earth. His ground game is that of overrated, and his striking is no where near as technical as many, many people claim it to be.



Thats stupid. you do know that shogun isn't the only fighter to gas badly after having a long lay off because of injury it happens.




SM33 said:


> Yeah the elbow on the throat thing is actually illegal, would have had a big effect on Rua at that stage of the fight so it was dirty. Not as dirty as Schaub though, he was being a dick.


What did Schaub do that was dirty?


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

> What did Schaub do that was dirty?


Multiple strikes to the back of Mirko's head, he had a point taken away.



> Orly? Please point:
> 
> http://www.ufc.com/about/Rules
> 
> ...


Did Herb Dean not say something to Jon near the end of the fight? Jon had his elbow on Rua's throat, Herb said something and Jon moved it up onto the face instead? Either way, pushing the point of a limb into the throat is completely different to wrapping it around and applying pressure.


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

I thought he was pressing his thumb into the throat? At least that's what I thought I heard Herb warn Jon about?


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

SM33 said:


> Multiple strikes to the back of Mirko's head, he had a point taken away.
> 
> 
> 
> Did Herb Dean not say something to Jon near the end of the fight? Jon had his elbow on Rua's throat, Herb said something and Jon moved it up onto the face instead? Either way, pushing the point of a limb into the throat is completely different to wrapping it around and applying pressure.





KryOnicle said:


> I thought he was pressing his thumb into the throat? At least that's what I thought I heard Herb warn Jon about?



I thought he told him to let go of a **** choke.

An arm across the throat is legal and one of my favorite dirty tricks. if you can grip your hand behind the shoulder you can make a lot of opportunities happen.


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## Zader (Mar 20, 2011)

KryOnicle said:


> I thought he was pressing his thumb into the throat? At least that's what I thought I heard Herb warn Jon about?


I think he just had his arm across his throat, I don't see that thumb into the throat:


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

TraMaI said:


> I agree with you on parts of that. Shogun is the best fighter (Both Striking and Grappling) that Jones has ever faced. The thing is though that Jones is more of an outside striker with huge range and Shogun is more of an inside striker. I think Jones will use that range, pop in and pop out until he can get him to the floor. In no way am I saying Jones won't get hit or possibly even floored if Shogun times him right in those exchanges either, but I think it will be easier for him to make Shogun miss than vice versa. As far as the ground game it's a totally different match up. Shogun posses a very, very slick guard, but Jones has some serious top control and looks to pass quite often. If Shogun wants to be aggressive off his back and go for sweeps and subs (as is his tendency) I think he's going to get passed rather quick. Jones being on top at all is bad news for Shogun IMO as he has incredibly long limbs and apparently he hits like a piano being dropped on your face. It's really, really hard to do Jiu-Jitsu when your face is being punched and elbowed that hard. And the thing is that wrist control will do NOTHING against Bones. He still throws elbows from there and they still land flush.
> 
> In summary, yes I give the stand up to Shogun, but only slightly and only if he can back bones up to the cage and get inside on him. He needs to wear on him over a couple rounds with countering kicks to slow him down and then jump in on him and go back to his inside fighting. If he stays outside beyond his range he's going to get torn up purely because Jones will be able to jab him to death there if nothing else. With Jackson behind him I'm sur ehe knows that he's going to have to use that reach effectively as well.
> 
> ...


Naaaaiiiled iiiit.

Seriously, haters gonna hate,but you gotta give respect where it's due, jon jones officially looks unstoppable.


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## c-dub (Nov 18, 2010)

To be honest, reading threads like these really hyped up Shogun for me. Watchiing him fight though the main thought in my mind was "Is this the same guy all of the forum posts were about?!". Shogun looked like garbage against jones, he looked doughy and sluggish. I am not being a hater, honestly I don't know a lot about Shogun other than in the ufc 2010 game he's stupid good at everything. I don't know if it was Jones looking good across from him that made him look so doo-doo like, or if he just looked like doo-doo. The punches were slow and sloppy looking and his ground game wasn't good at all which is what everybody was hyping up, his damn "bjj" lol. I feel bad for Shogun, watching the fight I wouldn't be surprised if Jones didn't bust his ribs, or his orbital bone. His right eye swelled up so bad after the last elbow that I seriously think it broke something lol.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

SM33 said:


> Multiple strikes to the back of Mirko's head, he had a point taken away.
> 
> 
> 
> Did Herb Dean not say something to Jon near the end of the fight? Jon had his elbow on Rua's throat, Herb said something and Jon moved it up onto the face instead? Either way, pushing the point of a limb into the throat is completely different to wrapping it around and applying pressure.


I think what he was warning for was to not strike the throat, Jones threw an elbow around the end of the second round that landed close to the throat. 

The elbow choke is fine I think, never seen it in the UFC but Machida used it to choke out some kickboxer in a K1 MMA fight a long time ago.


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