# Did CB Dolloway tap to the choke?



## GarethUFC (Sep 12, 2007)

*CB The Tapper*

HOW in the name of jesus h christ did he win that fight... SOMETHING has to be done about the quality of Ref's in this sport... its a crock of shit


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

GarethUFC said:


> HOW in the name of jesus h christ did he win that fight... SOMETHING has to be done about the quality of Ref's in this sport... its a crock of shit


I'm not going to lie, but I thought he tapped as well on Massenzio's right side when he was caught in the guillotine. It was really quick, and I think it is worth analyzing further. 

Rep to anyone who can make a gif out of it.


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## Gavin (Feb 4, 2007)

During the fight, when the choke was sunk in, I swear I saw CB tap with his right hand. Now, they may have been some weak, weak punches but it looked like a tap to me. Now, we all know that CB has had some controversy with tapping in the past IE the whole "I thought it was three taps" incident during the TUF7 Finale against Amir. So did anyone else see the taps or have a GIF of what happened? I say he tapped and got away with it. CB fans, please feel free to beg to differ.


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## DanTheJu (Mar 3, 2007)

While I agree that it looked kind of like a tap, I watched it 3 times and it looks like he is just trying to get his hand under the choke and didnt do a good job of it! I thought at first it was a tap, the rewatched, and I dont THINK it is!


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## JuggNuttz (Oct 5, 2006)

totally agree, there were no punches, he brought his arm back tapped then tried pushing out of it. and he did it where the ref couldnt see this time. i didnt think it was possible, but i hate CB even more now.



Edit: Dan i havent rewatched it yet, i was at the bar watching this time and UFC didnt replay it. il need a gif to see or something. i still hate CB though heh.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Honestly, I posted this in another thread, but I thought I saw a tap to the guillotine on Massenzio's left side.


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## Villian (Jul 23, 2008)

he did tap i saw it, but since he recovered i guess it's irrelevant.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

Yea, I saw that, then I thought it was just me since noone sed anything and the fight continued.


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## BrAinDeaD (Oct 15, 2006)

Rewatched it just now. It doesn't look like a tap. He was trying to free his arm and in the process it slightly bounced off Mike's torso once. I could see how that may be mistaken for a tap but I don't think it was.


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## gm2685 (Aug 27, 2006)

It looked like he only tapped twice, isn't the rule 3 taps or more? But yea, he definitely started to tap for a second.


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## Tepang (Sep 17, 2008)

man I hate cb but i didnt see no tap


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## Throwdown (May 24, 2008)

any vid?


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

Throwdown said:


> any vid?


Well, I made a thread in the ufc multimedia section saying that theres gonna be a streaming of the event at 3am on mmahacks.com.


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## jbritt (Jun 30, 2008)

D.P. said:


> Well, I made a thread in the ufc multimedia section saying that theres gonna be a streaming of the event at 3am on mmahacks.com.


Thanks for that, I missed half the damn ppv. I missed Rampage ko Wandy, and I only got to watch rounds 1 and 2 of the Forrest and Rashad fight, ****.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

He definitely tapped. By the way doesn't CB look like the bastard child of Matt Damon and Dopey from Snow white.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

Nah, it wasn't a tap.


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## looney liam (Jun 22, 2007)

it seemed like he tried to tap at first but it was only once. the guillotine couldn't have been too tight though because he stayed in there quite a bit longer after he 'tapped'


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## KnockedTFO! (Feb 4, 2007)

CB is garbage... he was getting destroyed for the first part of that scramble.. I don't see this kid beating anyone in that division B level & above... he definately pulled a quick one out thee ass to get this win...


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## Throwdown (May 24, 2008)

3 taps= tap out


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Throwdown said:


> 3 taps= tap out


You don't have to tap 3 times. 1 tap can be enough I believe (somebody confirm).

I re-watched it and CB definitely tapped twice on Massenzio's body, right after he gets caught in that guillotine. Dude needs to stop with these controversial tap outs.


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## Sojuuk (Apr 22, 2008)

Xerxes said:


> You don't have to tap 3 times. 1 tap can be enough I believe (somebody confirm).
> 
> I re-watched it and CB definitely tapped twice on Massenzio's body, right after he gets caught in that guillotine. Dude needs to stop with these controversial tap outs.


if you're in a strong submission position and the ref sees you begin to tap hes going to stop it quickly to protect you. If you don't want him to stop it, don't tap EVEN ONCE!


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## GarethUFC (Sep 12, 2007)

He Tapped IMHO


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## GarethUFC (Sep 12, 2007)

Is there any yet?


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

i swear god i thought he tapped when he was in guillotine


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

i can't rewatch it cuz i'm at home now and we have dialup, but it wouldn't surprise me....that would be 2 fights that he tried to pull a Tavares


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

CB is a cheating bitch. He tapped im the Amir fight and he tapped in this fight. I was watching the fights with about 15 people and everyone said that he tapped. It was really obvious he just did it in a spot where the ref couldn't see. 

I'd be willing to bet that Mazzenzio felt the tap and loosened up a little thinking the fight was over and that gave CB enough time to reposition, which is why he was able to stay in for awhile afterwards and work to get out.


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## unclehulka13 (Nov 17, 2008)

Just rewatched the Guillotine, no tap.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

If I was Massenzio, I would have let go, got up, and declared myself the winner \0/


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## USMCOgre (Dec 8, 2008)

I thought he tapped too. **** I hate that this clown gets to fight in the UFC


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## BrianRClover (Jan 4, 2008)

When I used to compete I remember a lot of refs telling me they wanted to see three consecutive taps in a row before they acknowledged it... sometimes the hand tremors or shakes in a situation like that even though you aren't tapping out. All though in this case I thought CB tapped too... it looked a lot like when he tried to "withdraw" his tap to Amir armbar in the finale.


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## The Dark Knight (Jun 29, 2008)

You guys are seriously unbelieveable sometimes. Seriously you are. I know you all hate C.B just like you all hate Rashad and not like you all love Wandy, but enough is enough. I can understand how at FIRST viewing, it might look like C.B. tapped. But anybody who's saw that scenario in slow motion or a replay will know that he was simply trying to free his arm/hand and hit some weak hits. 

To the guy who said that 'he tried to make sure the referee didn't see this time'...sorry but do you even know what are you on about? If his intention was to tap, why the **** would he NOT want the ref to see it??? :confused03: This ain't the WWE, bruv. 

C.B won fair and square. He was in serious trouble a couple of points during the match, and I give it up to this Mike geezer giving C.B a hell of a fight, but C.B DOES have heart, despite what people say about him. Sure, he likes to play the cocky young buck, but he clearly does it for showmanship and is just a really good athlete. And..don't laugh, but I see a title match between himself and a certain Silva in the future...assuming he doesn't retire by that time.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

I don't hate C.B..I don't hate Evans...obviously, and I don't love Wand. I don't see what you're getting at but a lot of us here obviously saw something that could have been controversial and since C.B. has done this kind of thing before, it isn't crazy to think think hmm, he might have done it again.


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## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

I thought he was getting ready to tap; but didn't.


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## The Dark Knight (Jun 29, 2008)

D.P. said:


> I don't hate C.B..I don't hate Evans...obviously, and I don't love Wand. I don't see what you're getting at but a lot of us here obviously saw something that could have been controversial and since C.B. has done this kind of thing before, it isn't crazy to think think hmm, he might have done it again.


I understand your point, I do. just seems as if a lot of the guys wanted C.B to tap and have now convinced themselves that he did tap despite the fact that replays clearly show he didn't. The refs in the UFC are really good and are focused on the action. They would have stopped it if they felt C.B had tapped, whether intention or not.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

The Dark Knight said:


> You guys are seriously unbelieveable sometimes. Seriously you are. I know you all hate C.B just like you all hate Rashad and *not like you all love Wandy*, but enough is enough. I can understand how at FIRST viewing, it might look like C.B. tapped. But anybody who's saw that scenario in slow motion or a replay will know that he was simply trying to free his arm/hand and hit some weak hits.


Since when does everyone not love Wandy?


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

We went through all this last time CB pulled the 2 taps don't count crap. 

It doesn't have to be three taps to count. If the ref sees tyou tapping, he can stop it no matter how many taps you have completed.


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

I haven't seen the replay, but me and my wife both saw him tap during the ppv. He tapped and then found himself in a better position and since the the ref didn't see him, he kept fighting. 

I thought it was pretty telling when Joe asked him about it in the post fight interview, and CB said he didn't remember. I thought he looked a bit sheepish. 


But, I also hate CB dolloway, so I may be biased.


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## yoda (Oct 20, 2008)

randyspankstito said:


> I haven't seen the replay, but me and my wife both saw him tap during the ppv. He tapped and then found himself in a better position and since the the ref didn't see him, he kept fighting.
> 
> I thought it was pretty telling when Joe asked him about it in the post fight interview, and CB said he didn't remember. I thought he looked a bit sheepish.
> 
> ...


He looked even more sheepish at the post fight press conference and Rampage basically stepped in and answered his question for him. 

I think he tapped and I like Dollaway. I think he tapped and then realised he wasn't done for.


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

yoda said:


> He looked even more sheepish at the post fight press conference and Rampage basically stepped in and answered his question for him.
> 
> I think he tapped and I like Dollaway. I think he tapped and then realised he wasn't done for.



Oh man!! What did Rampage say?? :thumb02:


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

I clearly saw a tap during the choke, haven't seen a replay, but it looked like a definite tap to me. Considering his history with tapping, I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt either.

There is another thread about this, maybe they can be merged?


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## RaisingCajun (Jun 22, 2008)

Can anyone post a video? I bought the PPV last night and my dumbass self forgot to record it. When I remember and pressed record, after the PPV was over, my DVR only kept everything from the Mir vs Nog fight on.


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

I bought the all day pass, and it will be looping all day here, but I don't have anything to record with.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

I hate CB, but he didn't tap.


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## JuggNuttz (Oct 5, 2006)

The Dark Knight said:


> You guys are seriously unbelieveable sometimes. Seriously you are. I know you all hate C.B just like you all hate Rashad and not like you all love Wandy, but enough is enough. I can understand how at FIRST viewing, it might look like C.B. tapped. But anybody who's saw that scenario in slow motion or a replay will know that he was simply trying to free his arm/hand and hit some weak hits.
> 
> *To the guy who said that 'he tried to make sure the referee didn't see this time'...sorry but do you even know what are you on about? *If his intention was to tap, why the **** would he NOT want the ref to see it??? :confused03: This ain't the WWE, bruv.
> 
> C.B won fair and square. He was in serious trouble a couple of points during the match, and I give it up to this Mike geezer giving C.B a hell of a fight, but C.B DOES have heart, despite what people say about him. Sure, he likes to play the cocky young buck, but he clearly does it for showmanship and is just a really good athlete. And..don't laugh, but I see a title match between himself and a certain Silva in the future...assuming he doesn't retire by that time.


That was me, and yes i do. He was trying to pull a Matt Lindland. Tap the guy so he loosens up a bit and improve his position. No this isnt the WWE but people (like CB) are dicks and will cheat to try and win. **** CB!

i still havent seen a replay, so i could be wrong, but i will still hate CB after this, and will love it when he fights anyone good, and gets his ass handed to him. B fighter is all he is and a dick on top of it.


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## RaisingCajun (Jun 22, 2008)

randyspankstito said:


> I bought the all day pass, and it will be looping all day here, but I don't have anything to record with.


All day pass? Cable or Satellite?


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## BigPont (Nov 19, 2007)

CB did not tap. I guess he "tapped" once. It looked like it was just instinct. He won that fight straight up. Not even questionable. Yall just need to watch it again.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

I saw what I also thought was a tap. It was quick when CB was locked in that guillatine. I haven't rewatched it yet, I've been stuck on the Mir and Rampage wins on my DVR this morning.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

Yeah I thought i saw him tap aswell but thought maybe i just saw wrong but if so many of us saw the same thing then there has to be more to it. I do think he did the same thing he did against Amir but got away with it this time.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

Emericanaddict said:


> Yeah I thought i saw him tap as well but thought maybe i just saw wrong but if so many of us saw the same thing then there has to be more to it. I do think he did the same thing he did against Amir but got away with it this time.


Yea that's what I thought at first too, that it was just me, but since so many other people expressed the same views, there was obviously something fishy there. Truth is, no matter what, C.B. already has that win..but from what I saw he got caught in the choke, felt he was done, began to tap, then when nothing happened and he hadn't passed out, got to a better position and continued the fight.


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## Grindyourmind (Nov 20, 2008)

Im no expert but as i watched that fight I thought I saw him start to tap. Maybe thats cos thats what I wanted to see but who knows. As the fight went on I forgot about it.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

It looked like a half-tap to me. The problem with this is that even though he recovered, it leaves open the question of whether Massenzio eased up on the choke when he felt what he thought was CB tapping.


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## DanTheJu (Mar 3, 2007)

Never stop until the ref jumps in. Just because you think somebody tapped is no reason to stop! 

When training, sure, you stop when you think a guy tapped. In a fight you wait until the ref grabs you and says stop! What if what you think is a tap is nothing more than a foot flopping around while a guy is scrambling? 

NEVER LET UP!


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

I would not call this a tap, he is trying to get his hand under Mike's left arm.

And here is the .gif for you guys and gals:


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

looks like a tap to me that got taken back at the last second, and he lucked out that the ref didn't see.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

That .gif clearly shows he isn't tapping.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

Now I am leaning more to what I said before about tapping then taking it back. You can see the ref lean in after the tap, but Dolloway kept moving.


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## Tepang (Sep 17, 2008)

Wow now that I watch it close it does look like he slightly tapped once, making the other guy think the fight was over and loosen up. He tried the same bullshit with amir.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

That's a tap and a half, almost 2 taps to me. :dunno:

I'm starting to dislike that dude with his controversial taps...


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

I wanna see what rampage said about it at the press conference.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

it's on ufc.com, video center section. He didn't say much, just joking around.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Not sure, don't know to many people that tap with a closed fist. Kind of look liked his fist bouced off Mike's left arm while he was trying to get it under it. Also in the post fight ring interview with Joe he said he didn't remember the guillotine.


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

yorT said:


> Not sure, don't know to many people that tap with a closed fist. Kind of look liked his fist bouced off Mike's left arm while he was trying to get it under it. Also in the post fight ring interview with Joe he said he didn't remember the guillotine.


What do you expect him to say,"Oh yeah I was tapping there, I'm a total punk, I'm glad I didn't get caught."? 

You can tell by the look on his face when joe starts to ask him about it that he knows excactly what he did.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

that is so true. CB gets a total "lie face" going. he did that face on TUF big time.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

I thought he tapped when I first saw the fight but that gif made me change my mind.

Didn't see the post fight interview though, that would influence my opinion on it.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

randyspankstito said:


> What do you expect him to say,"Oh yeah I was tapping there, I'm a total punk, I'm glad I didn't get caught."?
> 
> You can tell by the look on his face when joe starts to ask him about it that he knows excactly what he did.


I just re-watched it with my friends, and they all said the same thing..he was soo uncomfortable answering that.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

I never saw this fight so I'm going to go watch it but it wouldn't be the first time that CB did this.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I'm the biggest Massenzio fan on the forum but that wasn't a tap come on people.


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## Hefty (Oct 10, 2008)

When I first watched it I thought for sure he tapped. But watching it again I'm on the fence. It looked like his hand could of bounced off while trying to pry under the Mike's arm. But who knows other than Dolloway himself.


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## BhamKiD (Aug 20, 2008)

CB's name might as well be DB...but he didn't tap


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

*He definitely tapped, watch the fight not the gif!*

http://smotri.com/video/view/?id=v791885aa5f

That's two quick taps, don't watch it in slow motion. 

I don't give a crap about either of these guys, but I know a tap when I see a tap. Augmenting the speed of the gif only distorts the fluidity of the tap, seriously, watch the link.

And to those of you saying he was trying to get his arm under Massenzio's you're dead wrong, because he would push Massenzio's left arm down, not up into his own throat. He wouldn't be trying to tighten the space around his throat/neck, he'd be trying to create space with his arm which wouldn't occur by putting his arm under Massenzio's arm-pit.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

I think at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if he tapped, as long as Massenzio didn't loosen the choke. I'd like to hear what he has to say on that.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> I think at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if he tapped, as long as Massenzio didn't loosen the choke. I'd like to hear what he has to say on that.


I don't see how it doesn't matter, that could have been the end of the fight right there had Yves Lavigne been positioned correctly. :dunno:

I just find it hard to believe that CB wouldn't try that tapping shit again.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

Dude, you can clearly see it from the video from fedor>all that he does two quick taps, you gotta keep your eye focused on C.B's hand.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

D.P. said:


> Dude, you can clearly see it from the video from fedor>all that he does two quick taps, you gotta keep your eye focused on C.B's hand.


Exactly, slow-motion is often used for deception in film-making, and it's no different in this gif.


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## Redrum (Jan 30, 2008)

Watching this video, I think that the hand motion by CB appears to be a tap. I believe that if the ref was on that side, he would have viewed it as a tap as well. It doesn't look like it could be anything other than a tap.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

He tapped. I can't remember, but didn't this happen in the 1st and 2nd fight with Amir? He would do like one maybe 2 quick taps then complain if the fight was stopped?


Anyone have those videos?


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## cezwan (Dec 7, 2007)

i really dislike CB Dollaway purely because he reminds me of one of the Bra Boys from Maroubra, Sydney (surfer gang that terrorize surfing spots and are complete assholes) and those guys are a bunch of dicks..

true story.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

For those of you not convinced by the smaller version of the video I posted, here's a larger one that CLEARLY indicates a tap:

http://www.mmashare.com/cb-dollaway-vs-mike-massenzio---full-fight-video-ufc-92-t3723.html




milkkid291 said:


> He tapped. I can't remember, but didn't this happen in the 1st and 2nd fight with Amir? He would do like one maybe 2 quick taps then complain if the fight was stopped?
> 
> 
> Anyone have those videos?



It was the second fight:

http://www.mmascraps.com/2008/06/amir-sadollah-vs-cb-dollaway-2-video.html

You can just tell by the look on his face that he's lying about the tap. He has one of those stupid faces where the top lip is touching the bottom of his nose.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

WOW! That was a friggin BLATANT tap. CB needs to never fight ever again


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> I don't see how it doesn't matter, that could have been the end of the fight right there had Yves Lavigne been positioned correctly. :dunno:
> 
> I just find it hard to believe that CB wouldn't try that tapping shit again.


Yes but if the ref doesn't see it the fight just have to go on, that's part of the game. I like Lavigne a lot but I think in this situation, he's also to blame for not having seen it. It doesn't mean I think another ref would have seen it because that tap was hard to catch but as the ref, he's got his own share of responsibility in this situation IMO. 

CB should obviously get flamed if that tap had any cheating intentions behind it. I just hope Massenzio didn't make the mistake of loosening his hold when/if he felt CB's hand. TBH I don't think so (hope we'll know soon) and if he didn't, then that whole tap scandal doesn't really matter as the hold stayed just as tight or got even tighter and CB still managed to escape on his own. 

If it didn't influence Massenzio's hold at all, then I think it doesn't matter too much and the blame should also be on the ref for not seeing it and doing what he's supposed to do in that situation. :dunno:


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Maybe he hasn't transitioned from training at the camp and fighting in the Octagon yet...


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> Yes but if the ref doesn't see it the fight just have to go on, that's part of the game. I like Lavigne a lot but I think in this situation, he's also to blame for not having seen it. It doesn't mean I think another ref would have seen it because that tap was hard to catch but as the ref, he's got his own share of responsibility in this situation IMO.
> 
> CB should obviously get flamed if that tap had any cheating intentions behind it. I just hope Massenzio didn't make the mistake of loosening his hold when/if he felt CB's hand. TBH I don't think so (hope we'll know soon) and if he didn't, then that whole tap scandal doesn't really matter as the hold stayed just as tight or got even tighter and CB still managed to escape on his own.
> 
> *If it didn't influence Massenzio's hold at all, then I think it doesn't matter too much and the blame should also be on the ref for not seeing it and doing what he's supposed to do in that situation.* :dunno:


It's about ethics, and CB clearly has none. He tapped, he broke the rules.. it shouldn't matter if the ref didn't see it, that's the reason that many other sports such as hockey have video reviews of skeptical plays that could alter the course of their respective outcomes. Hell, they did it for Hughes/Newton so why couldn't they do it for this? 

CB's a multiple offender too. Most guys if they feel a tap would lighten the choke, maybe Massenzio should have waited for referee intervention, but the point is he wouldn't have even considered releasing it unless CB tapped, which he did.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

I agree with some but that's just not how I see things. There are basically 2 possibilities IMO:

1- CB (slightly) tapped with the intention of cheating, in order to get his opponent's choke lighter. 
2- CB tapped because he felt the need for it at that moment but the fight didn't get stopped. Right after he got to improve his position and managed to escape from that choke. 

If #1 is closer to the truth then I agree with you and I'd be the first to bash him. If #2 is what happened then how can we blame him for tapping? He needed to tap and went ahead but the ref just didn't see it. And again, I'm only hoping it didn't have any influence on Massenzio's choke but even if it did, CB still wouldn't be to blame in this situation. 
After he escapes from that choke and he's on top of his opponent, he's obviously not going to ask the ref to stop the fight because he tapped a bit earlier. I wish people would be so honest but IMO no fighter would do that in such an important fight. CB's obviously denying afterwards which is unethical but understandable and again, most fighters would deny just the same way as he did. Rampage also joked about it implying nobody would admit this: " what a dumb question, "hell yeah I tapped!" ".

True, it shouldn't matter if the ref sees it or not but so many important things rely on his own subjective judgement, mistakes, good calls, etc. but we just have to accept his calls, should they be good or bad. That's what he's being paid for after all. This being said, for that fight, I'd be happy if they give the win to Massenzio afterwards because he should have definitely gotten it. I just think it's going to be hard to do so as the taps weren't so clear and CB will just keep denying. 

I'm not aware of what happened between Newton and Hughes, was it during their 1st or 2nd encounter?

Lastly, I just re-watched it and Massenzio didn't release the choke after the taps. I don't know if he lightens it but he doesn't release it since CB is stuck there for a good 15 seconds after having tapped.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

Or, you know... he didn't tap at all.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> I agree with some but that's just not how I see things. There are basically 2 possibilities IMO:
> 
> 1- CB (slightly) tapped with the intention of cheating, in order to get his opponent's choke lighter.
> 2- CB tapped because he felt the need for it at that moment but the fight didn't get stopped. Right after he got to improve his position and managed to escape from that choke.
> ...


Yeah, it's hard to tell because the camera cuts and Yves Lavigne is blocking the view. That said, if someone was tapping your side, wouldn't you lighten/release the choke. I mean, if you were positioned where Massenzio was, you wouldn't be able to see Yves at all. In my opinion, he made the mistake of lessening the squeeze because of the tap, which allowed CB to create space. It really goes back to the old adage "play by the referee's whistle".



Xerxes said:


> I'm not aware of what happened between Newton and Hughes, was it during their 1st or 2nd encounter?


In their first fight Newton had Hughes caught in a triangle choke, and Hughes picked him up and held him up against the cage. He slammed Newton, but in the process he was choked unconscious. The officials had to review the video footage before declaring the winner, and although I think they made the wrong decision (I believe Hughes was out before Newton), at least they checked the tapes to formulate an opinion.




+Shogun+ said:


> Or, you know... he didn't tap at all.


I'd like to believe that because it's a sport of respect and honor, but if you watch the video instead of the gif, I think it's pretty clear that he tapped very quickly. You don't escape a guillotine choke by tapping the side of your opponent's body.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Damn, you're a fast typer F>A!! lol

I hear you about Massenzio but if he lightened the choke then he made a Big mistake as he should have waited for the ref stoppage or at least keep the hold as tight if not tighter to get some other clear taps from CB. Then Lavigne would see it and just step in. If not, Massenzio could just stop fighting, claim CB tapped and get the win (the replay would clearly confirm the taps). 
TBH I really don't think he even felt the taps but I'm not in his head. We'll find out soon from him hopefully. 

I'll check this Hughes/Newton 1 out. Thanks :thumbsup:


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> Damn, you're a fast typer F>A!! lol
> 
> I hear you about Massenzio but if he lightened the choke then he made a Big mistake as he should have waited for the ref stoppage or at least keep the hold as tight if not tighter to get some other clear taps from CB. Then Lavigne would see it and just step in. If not, Massenzio could just stop fighting, claim CB tapped and get the win (the replay would clearly confirm the taps).
> TBH I really don't think he even felt the taps but I'm not in his head. We'll find out soon from him hopefully.
> ...


No problem, and yeah, Massenzio definitely needs to make sure that the ref sees the tap before letting it go next time. We'll have to wait and see, like you said, I hope he reviews the fight and protests the loss. I really don't approve of breaking the honor system that tapping represents.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

seriously hope messenzio says somethign about this. CBs BS is starting to make meangry. Also going to look up hughes/newton F>A


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> http://smotri.com/video/view/?id=v791885aa5f
> 
> That's two quick taps, don't watch it in slow motion.
> 
> ...


Right on every point. Repped. Case closed as to IF he tapped.

Obviously I can't read the guy's mind, and it certainly wouldn't surprise me if he tried to use that to gain an unfair advantage. However, I'm guessing the guy just tapped out of instinct in a bad moment, immediately regretted it and stopped.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

SmackyBear said:


> I'm guessing the guy just tapped out of instinct in a bad moment, immediately regretted it and stopped.


Yea, this is what I've been saying, I think he felt he was in a bad position..tapped then realized he wasn't in that bad of a position to not continue, and since the ref didn't see, fight continued.


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## Robopencil (Feb 7, 2007)

This is on a completely different note, but did anyone think CB sounded really weird in the post fight interview with Joe Rogan. Like... A transvestite or something? Please no neg reps, I'm just commenting on how his voice sounded. Totally different from on TUF it seemed like. Maybe it's just me though.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

Robopencil said:


> This is on a completely different note, but did anyone think CB sounded really weird in the post fight interview with Joe Rogan. Like... A transvestite or something? Please no neg reps, I'm just commenting on how his voice sounded. Totally different from on TUF it seemed like. Maybe it's just me though.


Lol, I was thinking the same thing. I was like "...wow... he sounds really... uh.... feminine."


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## Darkgecko (Apr 21, 2008)

Robopencil said:


> This is on a completely different note, but did anyone think CB sounded really weird in the post fight interview with Joe Rogan. Like... A transvestite or something? Please no neg reps, I'm just commenting on how his voice sounded. Totally different from on TUF it seemed like. Maybe it's just me though.


No neg rep needed, I agree, he sounded really weird. My buddy's wife started laughing when he started talking.


As for the tap (notice I called it a TAP) I hope that there is some dialogue between fighters and the NSAC after fights, or at least between the referee and the fighters, so that CB realises that this sort of thing isn't acceptable.

This is just like when Matt Wiman was breaking the rules to try and avoid a submission. They both got away with it, and they both succeeded in breaking the submission. The reason I don't think he tapped but fought on simply because of the ref, is because of the way he acted after losing in the TUF finale. He tapped to get Amir to let loose of the arm bar, but not enough (or so he thought) to get the fight stopped, and then was upset that it was.


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## Clivey (May 28, 2007)

has there been a gif posted yet? must be one surely.


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## BrAinDeaD (Oct 15, 2006)

I still don't think he tapped. While the gif is slowed down, it's still more reliable than those videos which have piss poor resolution. It adds a bounciness to the motion of his hand because it's so blurry. 

I'm not familiar with CB's tactics. I didn't watch his season but what I saw against his match with Mike didn't look like a tap. When I first watched it live initially I thought it was a tap just considering the predicament he was in and seeing his arm come out like that. However, after numerous views now on the big screen including another time just a sec ago to further confirm this, it was no tap. 

I'm sticking to my original theory that he was just trying to free his arm for better placement. Keep in mind he had just attempted a single leg and his right arm was trapped under Mike's leg once it hit the ground. If he was going to tap why didn't he just do it with his free arm?


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Robopencil said:


> This is on a completely different note, but did anyone think CB sounded really weird in the post fight interview with Joe Rogan. Like... A transvestite or something? Please no neg reps, I'm just commenting on how his voice sounded. Totally different from on TUF it seemed like. Maybe it's just me though.


Lol thats so funny cuz when he started talking we all had to laugh and call him a queer. Partly because we didnt like him from the ultimate fighter and mostly because he sounds hella feminine.


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## BazDaManUk (May 27, 2007)

I think CB is scared from submissions, in this fight and the amir fight he probably didn't believe he was going to get out of it or he didn't want to get hurt/lose consciousness so he taps quickly but then realises he might be able to get out of it and tries to, well it worked n this fight but it didn't in the second amir fight.


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## The Dark Knight (Jun 29, 2008)

You lot just wish he tapped, that's all. I've watch it in normal speed and slow mo, and the guy didn't tap. And even if he did tap Messenzio would have been smart enough to wait for the referee to signal that the match was over before loosening up? C.B won fair and square and beat this Mike geezer - just like I said he would. End of


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Fedor>ALL I've seen the video numerous times. If CB was tapping it would've been a lot clearer then that.

Honestly it might look like a tap on video but when in a choke if you want to tap you tap.

I wish he tapped because then I could pretend Jersey won another fight but that doesn't look like a guy who's trying to tap and I highly doubt he's trying to trick Mike.

The guy after the fight said he couldn't remember what happened in the whole thing.

Do you guys really think CB decided to fake a tap then after the fight thought hmmmm..... I'm gonna pretend not to know what happened?


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Clivey said:


> has there been a gif posted yet? must be one surely.


Yeah, and it's not very reliable because of the frame-rate.



BrAinDeaD said:


> I still don't think he tapped. While the gif is slowed down, it's still more reliable than those videos which have piss poor resolution. It adds a bounciness to the motion of his hand because it's so blurry.


Go re-watch the fight in higher resolution and you'll see it was a tap. The gif is more unreliable if anything, it's smaller and the frame-rate is manipulated completely. 



BrAinDeaD said:


> I'm sticking to my original theory that he was just trying to free his arm for better placement. Keep in mind he had just attempted a single leg and his right arm was trapped under Mike's leg once it hit the ground. If he was going to tap why didn't he just do it with his free arm?


Your theory doesn't make sense BJJ-wise. First of all, he wasn't trying to free his arm, because it wasn't trapped at any point, both his arms were out of the choke which is the reason why he was in such a dangerous position.

If he was trying to create space to breathe, he'd be pushing down on Mike's left elbow, trying to fit his arm through to relieving the pressure from around his neck, which he didn't try doing at all. 



bbjd7 said:


> Fedor>ALL I've seen the video numerous times. If CB was tapping it would've been a lot clearer then that.
> 
> Honestly it might look like a tap on video but when in a choke if you want to tap you tap.


We're talking about CB man, a guy who already is guilty of doing this before. You seriously don't believe he'd fake a tap to have a fight continue when he's done that very same thing before? 



bbjd7 said:


> I wish he tapped because then I could pretend Jersey won another fight but that doesn't look like a guy who's trying to tap and I highly doubt he's trying to trick Mike.


I do, because he was in serious trouble. He was rocked by two hard punches and he made a sloppy double leg where he exposed himself to a textbook guillotine choke. I just had to laugh in the other thread when you said you "under-rated CB's grappling", because his grappling---specifically submission defense---is still shit judging by this fight.



bbjd7 said:


> The guy after the fight said he couldn't remember what happened in the whole thing.


So what? He also said he didn't tap immediately after the fight with Amir when he obviously did. There is no number of taps rule, a tap is a tap. If you don't want out, don't make it look like you did. Simple enough.



bbjd7 said:


> Do you guys really think CB decided to fake a tap then after the fight thought hmmmm..... I'm gonna pretend not to know what happened?


Yeah, I really do.

There was absolutely NO other reason for him to motion with his hand like that, there is no escape from a guillotine where you tap the side of your opponents body quickly, and you know that.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

I took the gif from an HD video. What do you want me to change the framerate to?


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

I had a dream last night that the UFC made it so you had to tap at least 13 times to submit. lol!


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

LOL @ HexRei's dream.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

yorT said:


> I took the gif from an HD video. What do you want me to change the framerate to?


Changing the framerate and taking it from a HD video won't do anything. You have to look at the actual fight and not the gif. 

I can take the gif and delete single frames to make it look however I want. That doesn't mean that what you see in the gif is exactly how it happened, thats why you have to look at the original video.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

MJB23 said:


> Changing the framerate and taking it from a HD video won't do anything. You have to look at the actual fight and not the gif.
> 
> I can take the gif and delete single frames to make it look however I want. That doesn't mean that what you see in the gif is exactly how it happened, thats why you have to look at the original video.


Exactly! That's why I posted the link to the fight in this thread, because even though the resolution quality isn't as good, the fluidity of CB's motion is a lot clearer.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

MJB23 said:


> Changing the framerate and taking it from a HD video won't do anything. You have to look at the actual fight and not the gif.
> 
> I can take the gif and delete single frames to make it look however I want. That doesn't mean that what you see in the gif is exactly how it happened, thats why you have to look at the original video.


I didn't delete any frames when I made the gif. I know some programs have this optimize gif to save space but I didn't do that. I'll post the HD version of that clip for you guys.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Post the actual HD version of the fight and not a gif so we can compare it to F>A's.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

This is just the part of the fith so youtube doesn't take it down for being illegal.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxt5IM83Wyw

Edit: Got to wait for it to process, I'll let you know when it is done.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

MJB23 said:


> Post the actual HD version of the fight and not a gif so we can compare it to F>A's.


those are just two different video rendering formats, GIF is no more inherently easy to manipulate than an AVI or an FLV. You could subtract frames from any video rendering in fact.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Anyone know how the HD videos work on youtube? Do you have to have a special account?


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

At the time me and all of my friends were shouting at the TV, saying he tapped. 
But i just watched it again, replaying it over and over and it just looks like he was pulling his arm out. 

It definitely doesn't look like he tapped.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

It looks like he lost a little heart, then found the power of ten Grinches...plus two! Seriously, it looks like he was tapping. Then again, it also looks like it was just the normal motion an arm would take after being pulled out...but as long as it went unnoticed and no one is complaining of a loosening grip to the phantom tap then does it really matter other than to label CB as somewhat of a cheater?


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> We're talking about CB man, a guy who already is guilty of doing this before. You seriously don't believe he'd fake a tap to have a fight continue when he's done that very same thing before?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea he had the issue in the Amir fight but he admitted that he didn't know the rules. Now it was wrong what he did but this is a different situation. It was more of him moving his hand up towards Mike's arm. If CB was trying to tap it would've been a lot clearer.

I underrated CB's passing and GnP I didn't think he would walk through Mike's guard. His submission defense still isn't very good no doubt.

let's think about this the guy is rocked and hurt badly so you are telling me that he in this short period of time thinks to himself that he should fake a tap instead of defending the choke? The first time he said he didn't tap was basically him going to tap hitting once then thinking he could get out so he didn't do it again not that he was trying to get Amir to loosen it.

I think you are giving CB way too much credit for being a evil genius.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

I thought CB tapped and in fact still do think he was tapping and regretted halfway through.

aside from his tapping he really did impress me in this fight tho. His camp is really helping him grow.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

It doesn't take an evil genius to try to fake a tap (or start to tap and then change your mind), Shammy did the same thing way back in the first UFC's, and he's no genius.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

I think this one is better quality than the other one I posted. Just let is process and should be ready in no time.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edwzF2Ouy3c


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Forget that shit, didn't anyone realize that CB talks like a complete ****. I would be so embarrassed if a guy who speaks like that beat me. I never really noticed it on the TUF either.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

HexRei said:


> It doesn't take an evil genius to try to fake a tap (or start to tap and then change your mind), Shammy did the same thing way back in the first UFC's, and he's no genius.


It does to fake a tap so the ref can't see when you are in a guillotine and then decide to claim you don't remember anything after the punch.

Look CB was wrong in the Amir fight but this one isn't a tap honestly Massenzio didn't even think twice about it.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

yorT said:


> I think this one is better quality than the other one I posted. Just let is process and should be ready in no time.


Look really close at the 5 second mark and you can clearly see he taps twice.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> It does to fake a tap so the ref can't see when you are in a guillotine and then decide to claim you don't remember anything after the punch.


 Since it was only a doubletap, maybe he didn't care if the ref saw it. Maybe he was so worried about going out that he felt the risk was worth it. And I still don't see what's ingenious about claiming you can't remember 



> Look CB was wrong in the Amir fight but this one isn't a tap honestly Massenzio didn't even think twice about it.


Did massenzio say that?


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

That doesn't look like a tap to me.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Here it is slowed down:


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

HexRei said:


> Since it was only a doubletap, maybe he didn't care if the ref saw it. Maybe he was so worried about going out that he felt the risk was worth it. And I still don't see what's ingenious about claiming you can't remember
> 
> 
> Did massenzio say that?


Trust me Massenzio isn't a quiet guy if he thought CB tapped and he loosened the grip he would've said something.

That really doesn't look like a tap to me at all I'm not sure if you guys just don't trust CB or something but that isn't a tap.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

bbjd7 said:


> Trust me Massenzio isn't a quiet guy if he thought CB tapped and he loosened the grip he would've said something.
> 
> That really doesn't look like a tap to me at all I'm not sure if you guys just don't trust CB or something but that isn't a tap.


at full speed it's clearly a tap.

it's to litterally fast and weak to be anything else.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Look at what yort put up he take his hand and tries to get it in the choke. It doesn't look at all like a tap to me.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

He doesn't try to get it in on the choke at all BBJD. What guillotine escape has you tapping the shoulder of your opponent?

The slo mo gif doesn't look the same as the regular speed video. If you watch the video that yorT posted you can clearly see that he tapped.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

He can't see so it looks to me like he's feeling around to find the arm. Which is why after he hits the shoulder his hand moves down toward the arm and then tries to get in under the arm.


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

I think he was going for the reach around so he could toss the salad. I've heard that CB likes that sort of thing.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

The slow motion one is hard to tell what he is doing but you can tell if there was a tap it happens only once not twice. If he wanted to tap you figured he would have tried better than that. Just my opinion.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

yorT said:


> The slow motion one is hard to tell what he is doing but you can tell if there was a tap it happens only once not twice. If he wanted to tap you figured he would have tried better than that. Just my opinion.


CB has a thing about tapping bassically out of habit as soon as he's caught and as soon as he realizes it pretends he wasn't.

Even tho I do think he was tapping it's not something I'd hold against him. He realized he was okay and got back in the fight without the ref seeing the tap. He did what anyone would do.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

That's a good gif up there. Really looks like he isn't tapping and in fact it's the momentum from pulling his hand loose from Massenzio's leg and midsection.


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

69nites said:


> CB has a thing about tapping bassically out of habit as soon as he's caught and as soon as he realizes it pretends he wasn't.
> 
> Even tho I do think he was tapping it's not something I'd hold against him. He realized he was okay and got back in the fight without the ref seeing the tap. He did what anyone would do.


Neither minatauro nor Captain America would half tap like that. raise01:


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

that's not a tap. He yanked his arm out, and it popped back towards massenzio's body. His hand isn't even open as if to tap. 

This is getting dumb. Had it come into play, i.e. massenzio letting up prematurely because of the supposed tap, then it would matter. However, nobody has said anything besides people on forums.


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## e-thug (Jan 18, 2007)

Davisty69 said:


> that's not a tap. He yanked his arm out, and it popped back towards massenzio's body. His hand isn't even open as if to tap.
> 
> This is getting dumb. Had it come into play, i.e. massenzio letting up prematurely because of the supposed tap, then it would matter. However, nobody has said anything besides people on forums.



Yeah, the gifs doesnt have me sold what-so-ever, it doesnt look like a tap to me.

I cant believe how much attention this has garnered, I thought Id be reading more about Mir's upset and Kongo/Al-Turk late stoppage.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> Yea he had the issue in the Amir fight but he admitted that he didn't know the rules. Now it was wrong what he did but this is a different situation. It was more of him moving his hand up towards Mike's arm. If CB was trying to tap it would've been a lot clearer.


Listen, I know CB was one of your prospects last time around, but you've got to be kidding me. What sort of professional fighter with 7 fights (prior to the one with Amir) doesn't understand that a tap is a tap. It's the FIRST thing you learn when you take up grappling, if you tap the match is over, it doesn't matter how many times, a tap is a tap.



bbjd7 said:


> I underrated CB's passing and GnP I didn't think he would walk through Mike's guard. His submission defense still isn't very good no doubt.


Don't get me wrong, but I think Massenzio's ground game is over-rated. Even when he had that tight guillotine his guard wasn't closed at all, for the added torque. It was tight enough to win the fight, but if he really wanted to seal the deal he should have locked his legs. CB really didn't impress me at all this time around, I genuinely want to like the guy because he has talent, but I think it's despicable to claim ignorance to the tapping honor system.



bbjd7 said:


> let's think about this the guy is rocked and hurt badly so you are telling me that he in this short period of time thinks to himself that he should fake a tap instead of defending the choke? The first time he said he didn't tap was basically him going to tap hitting once then thinking he could get out so he didn't do it again not that he was trying to get Amir to loosen it.


Don't tap at all. If you think you're going to tap, tap, if you aren't sure, don't tap at all. It's not rocket science. And yeah, judging by what I've seen of CB he would do something like that to win. Not many people were giving Massenzio a chance and he was on his way to winning the fight. That certainly wouldn't look good for CB, being subbed in the first round of both his UFC fights.



bbjd7 said:


> I think you are giving CB way too much credit for being a evil genius.


There's nothing genius about it, as others have mentioned. It's cheap, and when a lot of people are about to face defeat, they'd do anything to avoid it.



bbjd7 said:


> Look at what yort put up he take his hand and tries to get it in the choke. It doesn't look at all like a tap to me.





bbjd7 said:


> He can't see so it looks to me like he's feeling around to find the arm. Which is why after he hits the shoulder his hand moves down toward the arm and then tries to get in under the arm.


Like MJB said, the hand is nowhere near going under Massenzio's arm to make it a one-arm guillotine. If you're trying to escape a guillotine, you don't pull your arm out widely, then touch the side of your opponent's body quickly. It just makes no sense to me for him to do that, it's not an escape technique.




Davisty69 said:


> that's not a tap. He yanked his arm out, and it popped back towards massenzio's body. His hand isn't even open as if to tap.


His hand is definitely open as soon as it makes contact with Massenzio's body, then he closes it into a fist. 



Davisty69 said:


> This is getting dumb. Had it come into play, i.e. massenzio letting up prematurely because of the supposed tap, then it would matter. However, nobody has said anything besides people on forums.


Probably because it's not something easily noticed, that was the shot lasted about a second and most people's attention would be on the neck, not the arm.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Look he tried to get his arm in you can see him trying to get the arm in before Yves gets in the way of the picture.

This has nothing to do with me picking CB as a prospect because the guy does have a bright future so does Mike but that's not a tap.

CB was wrong the first time I agree but this time it wasn't a tap he hit the shoulder and worked his hand down right away until he reached the arm then he tried to get his arm under the choke.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

bbjd7 said:


> Look he tried to get his arm in you can see him trying to get the arm in before Yves gets in the way of the picture.
> 
> This has nothing to do with me picking CB as a prospect because the guy does have a bright future so does Mike but that's not a tap.
> 
> CB was wrong the first time I agree but this time it wasn't a tap he hit the shoulder and worked his hand down right away until he reached the arm then he tried to get his arm under the choke.


what does him trying to get out of the sub after tapping have to do with him tapping?

EDIT: I also noticed a lot of people saying he didn't have an open hand for the tap. His hand is limp. that's the form of the glove keeping it in that position. It actually takes a bit of effort to make your hand straight with a taped and gloved hand.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> Look he tried to get his arm in you can see him trying to get the arm in before Yves gets in the way of the picture.


You don't get the arm in that way, you want to push it down, not up.



bbjd7 said:


> This has nothing to do with me picking CB as a prospect because the guy does have a bright future so does Mike but that's not a tap.


Sure, sure lol.



bbjd7 said:


> CB was wrong the first time I agree but this time it wasn't a tap he hit the shoulder and worked his hand down right away until he reached the arm then he tried to get his arm under the choke.


Dude, he didn't even touch his shoulder. He's touching Mike's side, and as I've said a thousand times, that's not a logical move for avoiding/escaping a guillotine.


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

I definately suspected a tap when i watched the event live but after seeing the gif I don't think that was a tap.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

No one is saying he is doing it correctly but I've seen a ton of people attempt to escape a guillotine by pushing their hand into the choke and considering it looks like that's what he is about to do before Yves gets in the way I think that's what he's trying.

This doesn't look like a tap it looks like he couldn't see was trying to get his hand in the choke and was just reaching around.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

drockh said:


> I definately suspected a tap when i watched the event live but after seeing the gif I don't think that was a tap.


Watch it again man:

http://smotri.com/video/view/?id=v791885aa5f

The gif is misleading, pay really close attention to how quickly his hand moves. 

My main argument is that other than a tap, it makes no sense for him to do what he did with his arm. I'm looking at this from strictly a technical point of view, because doing what he did will not help you escape from a guillotine.


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## Dioxippus (Jun 30, 2008)

When I watched it I actually thought he tapped, but the ref didn't stop it so I was just waiting for him to go to sleep. Bastard got out though...


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

Push one of your hands down while resisting, then release it. It's a natural movement for your hand being held to jut upward and then snap back slightly...It really looks like that's what's going on here. His hand is being clenched by Mike's leg as he tries to pull it out, it pops out, then falls back slightly. 

Furthermore, he does attempt to pry the arm away, all while remaining conscious, and without Mike loosening up at all (this assumption is based on the fact that Mike hasn't said anything - and I'd assume a fighter feeling cheated would speak up)...


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

This whole argument reminds me of Antonioni's _Blow-Up_. For those of you who haven't seen the film, the main character believes he sees a dead body in a photograph he's taken, so he blows the picture up hundreds of times to get a better view of what the object in question, but the picture's quality has degraded with each expansion, causing the image to be even less reliable. Really good film.

Anyway, I think I've argued my perspective enough in this thread. If it was another fighter, I'd be more lenient, but this isn't uncommon to Dollaway from what I've seen in the past. Hopefully it doesn't happen again, and hopefully Massenzio learns to close his guard when cranking a guillotine.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> You don't get the arm in that way, you want to push it down, not up.


I can post the gif of why he went that way. He pulls the arm down instead of pushing the arm down:


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## IDL (Oct 19, 2006)

There is a flaw in the 'cheating' theory. The ref is in the perfect spot to see the so called tap the last time CB has a chance to notice the refs position.

So I don't see any way of CB thinking he is hiding it from the ref.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

yorT said:


> I can post the gif of why he went that way. He pulls the arm down instead of pushing the arm down:


That's just plain poor defense, it's way easier to push than pull. I just don't understand why he pulls his arm out as wide as he does then slaps the side of Massenzio's body before grabbing underneath Massenzio's wrist. 




IDL said:


> There is a flaw in the 'cheating' theory. The ref is in the perfect spot to see the so called tap the last time CB has a chance to notice the refs position.
> 
> So I don't see any way of CB thinking he is hiding it from the ref.


No, I think there's a flaw in that you're not looking at the right thing bro. Yves Lavigne was standing to the right side of the guillotine (the side in which CB's head was stuck), after the potential tap, Yves steps to the side where some of us believe he tapped. Yves missed it IMO, and I think had he been positioned on the right side and saw that, the fight would have been called.










Unless Yves can see through flesh, I really doubt he would have noticed the tap. Bad positioning on his part, you should be able to see both hands at all times when someone's locked in a sub.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I think he get's lost man I think he is feeling his way around when his hand goes that high.

Like I said I think CB was just trying to defend the choke and he was doing it wrong.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> I think he get's lost man I think he is feeling his way around when his hand goes that high.
> 
> Like I said I think CB was just trying to defend the *joke *and he was doing it wrong.


It's possible, Massenzio should have been more wary of the _punch_-line though. *rimshot*


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Haha wow my bad I fixed it but I meant choke quite the mistake.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> Haha wow my bad I fixed it but I meant choke quite the mistake.


Haha it's alright, I just couldn't resist a corny response.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> That's just plain poor defense, it's way easier to push than pull. I just don't understand why he pulls his arm out as wide as he does then *slaps* the side of Massenzio's body before grabbing underneath Massenzio's wrist.


I don't know if I would call it a slap. There is a reason he went the way he did and not because he was trying to tap. Before everyone was saying he tapped twice. If you watch the slow motion gif it looks like there may or may not have been one tap then he proceeds to get his hand under Mike's left arm. Don't see how you can call it 100% a tap.


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## pipe (Jun 15, 2008)

It looked a tap watching it live, but im not so sure sure now. I still hate the guy though....sounds a bit queer to me


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Watch it again man:
> 
> http://smotri.com/video/view/?id=v791885aa5f
> 
> ...


Ok, why is it when I clicked on that link the key words were street racing, joking, fighting, EROTIC?


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Maybe he got scared and was flailing desperately, started to tap, then decided not to b/c he didn't know where the ref was and if the ref could have seen.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

cdtcpl said:


> Ok, why is it when I clicked on that link the key words were street racing, joking, fighting, EROTIC?


Because having a guy on top of another one, laying between his legs is erotic (for some people).


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Pour moi, bien sur.


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## LordRosemount (Aug 17, 2008)

When I watched this bout I was convinced that he tapped - actually that was why I came on this forum, to see whether anyone else had noticed what I thought I had. Having read the significant parts of this thread, here are my conclusions:

1. The 'tap' came from Dollaway's right side immediately after he was placed into the guillotine, not later as some people seem to have assumed (and actually I'm not sure how anyone could construe a tap in that later footage);

2. Dollaway didn't really tap, but was merely making a clumsy attempt to get under Massenzio's right arm, the inspiration for which was probably more desparation than rational thought.

In any event, if this rumoured 'three tap rule' is correct, he technically did not tap out whatever his intention at that time was - he 'tapped' only once, with his hand not leaving his opponent's body the second time it came to rest (I consider a 'tap' to involve lifting one's hand as well as just setting it down).

Reading my post back I'm concerned, if you'll allow me, that I may be coming across as a concern troll - I can promise that everything I've written is in dead earnest, and I'm in no way some Dollaway mark who came here to try to answer his critics. And if you don't believe me now, I can't help you!


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## BazDaManUk (May 27, 2007)

I still cant make my mind up, it could also be the fact he was trying to find his arm/pit


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Here's the post-fight interview, still don't buy it, to be honest.

http://mmamania.com/2008/12/29/cb-d...-at-anytime-against-mike-massenzio-at-ufc-92/


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## RaisingCajun (Jun 22, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> Here's the post-fight interview, still don't buy it, to be honest.
> 
> http://mmamania.com/2008/12/29/cb-d...-at-anytime-against-mike-massenzio-at-ufc-92/


Just look at CBs body language when the question is being asked. I think he unconsciously tapped. Natural reaction even though he might not have wanted to. Its my opinion that if the ref is on the other side, CB walks out a loser.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Here's the post-fight interview, still don't buy it, to be honest.
> 
> http://mmamania.com/2008/12/29/cb-d...-at-anytime-against-mike-massenzio-at-ufc-92/


Same thing he said in the post fight with Rogan. I don't like the guy but I still don't think he was trying to tap.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

RaisingCajun said:


> Just look at CBs body language when the question is being asked. I think he unconsciously tapped. Natural reaction even though he might not have wanted to. Its my opinion that if the ref is on the other side, CB walks out a loser.


Yeah I agree, it's like he expected the question. He knew it was coming, and his expression/reaction just conveyed this idea like "Ah shit, I knew someone would ask". Oh well, I hope the next guy he fights chokes him unconscious just so we don't have to go through this fake tapping BS anymore.



yorT said:


> Same thing he said in the post fight with Rogan. I don't like the guy but I still don't think he was trying to tap.


He said he was out of it, and came to when he got his head out of the choke. It could be possible that he tapped but didn't remember, but even then I think he knew what he was doing with his history of doing it before.


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## Entity (Aug 18, 2008)

Didn't tap. End of thread.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Here's the post-fight interview, still don't buy it, to be honest.
> 
> http://mmamania.com/2008/12/29/cb-d...-at-anytime-against-mike-massenzio-at-ufc-92/


Agreed. But Rampage's comment at the end was comedy gold! "That was a dumb question to axe homey. Why you axe him, like "Hell yeah, I tapped" Don't pick on my boy CB."


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

HexRei said:


> Agreed. But Rampage's comment at the end was comedy gold! "That was a dumb question to axe him. What he gonna be like "Yeah, I tapped" Don't pick on my boy CB."


Yeah that made me laugh lol, he said what probably most people were thinking.


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## IDL (Oct 19, 2006)

Fedor>all said:


> No, I think there's a flaw in that you're not looking at the right thing bro. Yves Lavigne was standing to the right side of the guillotine (the side in which CB's head was stuck), after the potential tap, Yves steps to the side where some of us believe he tapped. Yves missed it IMO, and I think had he been positioned on the right side and saw that, the fight would have been called.
> 
> Unless Yves can see through flesh, I really doubt he would have noticed the tap. Bad positioning on his part, you should be able to see both hands at all times when someone's locked in a sub.


I was, of course, referring to how CB could not see where Yves was standing. The last time CB saw Yves he was standing in the perfect position to see the tap.

So in respond to the 'he was trying to hide it from the ref' theory that just doesn't make sense.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

IDL said:


> I was, of course, referring to how CB could not see where Yves was standing. The last time CB saw Yves he was standing in the perfect position to see the tap.
> 
> So in respond to the 'he was trying to hide it from the ref' theory that just doesn't make sense.


Ah okay, I get what you're saying. Thanks for clarifying. Still looks like an "I'm tapping---no I'm changing my mind" gesture to me though. Also, just because your head's stuck in a guillotine and you can't see where the ref is, doesn't mean you can't hear what direction his voice is coming from when he's asking you if you submit.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

TBH this could work out bad for CB cos if whoever's fighting him next knows that he's got a history of this kinda stuff. If CB's caught in a deep armbar then he better be tapping hard cos I know I'd wait for the ref to grab me before letting go.


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## IDL (Oct 19, 2006)

Fedor>all said:


> Ah okay, I get what you're saying. Thanks for clarifying. Still looks like an "I'm tapping---no I'm changing my mind" gesture to me though. Also, just because your head's stuck in a guillotine and you can't see where the ref is, doesn't mean you can't hear what direction his voice is coming from when he's asking you if you submit.


It may have been a changing of the mind thing, in which case it's not that big of a deal really IMO.
Cheating is a bigger allegation and reflects on someones character and it just seems unlikely that he was trying to get away with something there. But, there's only one person that really knows.


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## Screwaside (Feb 11, 2008)

If anybody should know about not making any false movements that may convey a tap it would be "Cry Baby" Dolloway. I'm not saying he did or not but how many more fights are gonna have issues like this cause of his earlier antics... Somebody just give the guy a decent name so he can get smashed and disappear forever.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Screwaside said:


> Somebody just give the guy a decent name so he can get smashed and disappear forever.


Yeah, I have to wonder who decided to put Dollaway on the main card against a nobody while Ryo Chonan, Yushin Okami, Dean Lister, Matt Hamill and Antoni Hardonk were wallowing on the undercard.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

HexRei said:


> Yeah, I have to wonder who decided to put Dollaway on the main card against a nobody while *Ryo Chonan, Yushin Okami, Dean Lister*, Matt Hamill and Antoni Hardonk were wallowing on the undercard.


Casual fans know Dollaway more than the people I highlighted, that's why.


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## Screwaside (Feb 11, 2008)

yorT said:


> Casual fans know Dollaway more than the people I highlighted, that's why.


But you could of put a name such as those in the ring with Cry Baby. I think it was more about the opponant CB faced then CB


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## BouncyJones (Dec 29, 2008)

IDL said:


> It may have been a changing of the mind thing, in which case it's not that big of a deal really IMO.
> Cheating is a bigger allegation and reflects on someones character and it just seems unlikely that he was trying to get away with something there. But, there's only one person that really knows.


It comes across as hesitating or flirting with something that is pretty sacred within MMA, and because he's done that before it is getting the due attention it deserves.

I don't think it matters whether he was trying to cheat or not. It's the second time he's done something like that, and it will now dog him as part of his career. I think if he hadn't tapped in that other match and then made a big deal of it he wouldn't have had this much attention on him now.

Maybe one good thing that can come from this is a clarification of the rules. The last thing we want is people anticipating taps and going to replays of it to decide. For the most part, the UFC has fairly clear winners which is good. I could easily see this happening if more people started doing one and half taps accidentally or otherwise.


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## Red Baron (Jul 17, 2008)

i hadn't seen the fight til now

i'd call that a tap and bail


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Watching this, I'm thinking he didn't tap. Maybe he was about to, and maybe Massenzio thought he was about to, but it looks like he didn't follow through.

It seems CB has a problem with this sort of thing, though. He has to be more careful where his hands go when he's in a submission.

Or, you know, not get in a submission at all.


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## Hammer_Lock (Dec 8, 2008)

vandalian said:


> Watching this, I'm thinking he didn't tap. Maybe he was about to, and maybe Massenzio thought he was about to, but it looks like he didn't follow through.
> 
> It seems CB has a problem with this sort of thing, though. He has to be more careful where his hands go when he's in a submission.
> 
> Or, you know, not get in a submission at all.


Hard to tell from this one... in the video of the fight it looks like he's tapping twice, but judging from that slomo, it looks more like he tapped once and the second one was because his arm bounced back from Massenzio's body. Really hard to tell. Maybe he thought about tapping and then decided not to tap while his arm was already moving towards Massenzio.


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## Rabid (Oct 7, 2007)

Absolutely that was a tap, no doubt about it. It is a part of his training to tap when he is out of control, it was instinctual, but a tap none the less.


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## Rabid (Oct 7, 2007)

Rampage's response is a little disheartening as well, why shouldn't the press be allowed to do their job without a 205 pound animal staring them down...


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

RaisingCajun said:


> Just look at CBs body language when the question is being asked. I think he unconsciously tapped. Natural reaction even though he might not have wanted to. Its my opinion that if the ref is on the other side, CB walks out a loser.


What a horrible liar!! Man, he needs to take some acting lessons if he's gonna keep tapping and then taking it back.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

I've already said that he makes a lie face, but his goofy lip amplifies it.

I still can't be sure if he tapped or didn't, but other posters have accurately stated that with his history, it's naturally going to be scrutinized.


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## Organik (Aug 28, 2006)

his natural reaction from gettin caught in training must be to tap quick


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## GarethUFC (Sep 12, 2007)

Organik said:


> his natural reaction from gettin caught in training must be to tap quick



it looks very like it...


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

IDL said:


> It may have been a changing of the mind thing, in which case it's not that big of a deal really IMO.
> Cheating is a bigger allegation and reflects on someones character and it just seems unlikely that he was trying to get away with something there. But, there's only one person that really knows.


I think it's a big deal if it caused Massenzio to loosen the choke. He's tried lying about a tap immediately after a fight before, this is one of the main reasons I'm so skeptical. Maybe if he didn't get himself in such bad positions we wouldn't be discussing this? lol.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Franklin McNeil, Kenny Florian, and Stephen Bonnar all said they thought he tapped on mma live.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Just a point Franklin Mcneal knows shit about MMA it's crazy he has a TV show when so many more qualified guys like Dave Meltzer and Sam Caplan are out there.


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## GarethUFC (Sep 12, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Just a point Franklin Mcneal knows shit about MMA it's crazy he has a TV show when so many more qualified guys like Dave Meltzer and Sam Caplan are out there.


I agree.. i cant Stand the man... Even Goldie knows more about the sport then he does :thumb02:


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

bbjd7 said:


> Just a point Franklin Mcneal knows shit about MMA it's crazy he has a TV show when so many more qualified guys like Dave Meltzer and Sam Caplan are out there.


I hate him too, i hate how he only picks Black fighters to win because there his "brothers", like what kind of shit is that. They need to drop him, quick.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Looks to me like CB popped his arm out from under Mikes left arm and that was the sling shot effect.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Franklin McNeil, Kenny Florian, and Stephen Bonnar all said they thought he tapped on mma live.


lol, for a second i thought you missed a comma between Franklin and McNeil, and I was like Rich Franklin, ok, but who's this McNeil guy? 

Guess I should check that show out sometime.


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## The Dark Knight (Jun 29, 2008)

This is beyond ridiculous. He NEVER tapped. I thought we were done with this/?


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## GarethUFC (Sep 12, 2007)

The Dark Knight said:


> This is beyond ridiculous. He NEVER tapped. I thought we were done with this/?


Im sorry but i watched it again and he DID TAP!!! No doute in my mind!!! hes a Cheat!


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

The Dark Knight said:


> This is beyond ridiculous. He NEVER tapped. I thought we were done with this/?


Oh alright then if you say so then I suppose the several pages of actual discussion that have gone by are pointless. You must be right if you put "never" in capital letters.

I've watched it over and over and I'm still not sure but seeing as he's got a history of this sort of stuff it does make me very suspicious TBH.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

> Im sorry but i watched it again and he DID TAP!!! No doute in my mind!!! hes a Cheat!


How is he a cheat?

There is no doubt in my mind that he tapped, but the ref didn't see it and he kept fighting, just like you're supposed to. Neither fighter is supposed to stop till the ref stops the fight.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

69nites said:


> How is he a cheat?
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind that he tapped, but the ref didn't see it and he kept fighting, just like you're supposed to. Neither fighter is supposed to stop till the ref stops the fight.


tapping and then continuing fighting as if you didnt tap could be construed as cheating. normally someone tapping continues to tap until the fight is stopped. and there is also the matter of how he said at the post-fight conference that he didn't tap.


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## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

I vote slingshot effect from pulling his arm out.


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## GarethUFC (Sep 12, 2007)

69nites said:


> How is he a cheat?
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind that he tapped, but the ref didn't see it and he kept fighting, just like you're supposed to. Neither fighter is supposed to stop till the ref stops the fight.




The Very Same thing Happened in i Believe UFC 1... Shammrock Tapped and then Royce Let go of him... Nobody knew what happened not even the ref... Royce then told Ken that he Tapped and Ken Said "Yes i did"


I will Never Support CB in any fight EVER!! this is Twice he has done this...


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

GarethUFC said:


> The Very Same thing Happened in i Believe UFC 1... Shammrock Tapped and then Royce Let go of him... Nobody knew what happened not even the ref... Royce then told Ken that he Tapped and Ken Said "Yes i did"
> 
> 
> I will Never Support CB in any fight EVER!! this is Twice he has done this...


Ken didn't say "yes I did" he argued that he never tapped to the ref and threw a bitchfit.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Everybody seems to agree CB tapped.



DJ Syko said:


> I hate him too, i hate how he only picks Black fighters to win because there his "brothers", like what kind of shit is that. They need to drop him, quick.


That's why a couple of episodes ago he picked Monson over Kongo for their rumored fight :confused03:


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

69nites said:


> Ken didn't say "yes I did" he argued that he never tapped to the ref and threw a bitchfit.


LOL, that's some classic Shammy right there. In his next fights after that, Royce made sure the ref stopped it before lettign go, maybe even holding on for a bit after Big John was tyring to stop it.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Just a point Franklin Mcneal knows shit about MMA it's crazy he has a TV show when so many more qualified guys like Dave Meltzer and Sam Caplan are out there.


I agree there are some guys who are more schooled in mma. However Franklin has been covering mma for quite a while. He has a lot of contacts inside the business and gets a lot of inside information. Doesn't change the fact the Florian and Bonnar agreed with him.


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## Decimit (Oct 13, 2008)

I believe Dolloway is doing one of two things:

1) He is either consciously using the tap, in this fight and against Amir, as a cheating tactic to get his opponent to weaken their grip in order to escape submissions

or

2) He is subconsciously tapping while in dangerous situations, which he should have addressed long ago and be very aware of in order to prevent and break himself of this habit

Either way I feel he is in the wrong, be it dishonorable or just sloppy tactics.


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