# So who are these legendary UFC HW fighters that fedors ducking?



## vaj3000 (Dec 28, 2008)

This is getting beyond a joke now. Is time for these fedor haters to put up or shut up.
There are constant accusations that fedors ducking the ufc HW division to save his 'legacy' etc etc or that Fedor cant claim to be the best untill he's fought in the UFC HW division.

So whose fedor scared of?

Mr Brock '4-1' lesnar
Carwin?
vasquez?
Frank Mir?
The UFC HW is wheeey overated. Now in not saying that i wouldnt want to see fedor in the UFC but lets not make out like he's taking easy options because even if he does go to strike force , someone will always be gunning for him and give him a good fight.


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## ZENKI1 (Apr 19, 2009)

LOL Ive been screaming this since day one.. Great post.. :thumbsup: I wanna see Fedor in strikeforce.. I wanna c him crush Rodgers and then fight Allister.. I think right now Allister is one of the very few fighters out there that could beat Fedor.. Jus maybe..


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Cain, Carwin, Mir and Lesnar. Not to mention he will never fight Randy now. Also, he didn't duck "legendary" fighters, he just ducked an organization with much more talent than Strike force. I mean who do they have over there he can fight? Werdum? Brett Rogers? Please. The only fighter I see even possibly giving him problems is Overeem and I still think Fedor would wreck him. Point is that he KNOWS the best fighters in the world are in the Major Leagues (UFC) not in the minors (SF). And it will always be that way. New heavy weight prospects that are really good are going ot be picked up and be fighting in the UFC. Strike force is nothing more than the Home for Lost MMA Fighters. Seriously, their HW divisions #1 contender is someone who was CUT from the UFC. Add to the fact that the UFC gave him a massively more lucrative contract and the only reason he wont sign is because they won't co-promote? Sorry dude, but my ass.


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## vaj3000 (Dec 28, 2008)

Lesnar looks the best bet and thats simply because of his size. Fair play to lesnar for learning to use it but i still would like to see a couple of more fights before i start raving about him. I see lesnar ( from what ive seen of him) give fedor a good fight butas for some of the other names being thrown around like carwin etc i hardly think fedor would duck them.

Couture is past it, mir is overated. As for bashing overeem i wouldnt be so sure he'd give any of the UFC fighter a run for their money.
The only problem, i have with lesnar is that i have the feeling that we are giving him wheey too much credit. Lesnar couldnt even finish off heath herring fedor beat him when he was a hell of alot more competitive.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

I agree with TraMaI. Fedor is good but the names he has been fighting as of late seem to be dropping. The names seem to change a lot at the HW anyways, but i think that the top fighters pretty much all the way around are in the UFC.


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

Come on man cut Fedor some slack TraMaI. You can't really think Fedor is duckin' the UFC do you? He was gonna face the 2nd best HW (at the time) Josh Barnett and he has already stated his desire to face Lesnar. Just because the UFC deal didn't work out doesn't mean he's ducking anybody, he's just being loyal to Vadim. Hey, it pissed me off that he didn't sign with the UFC, but it's his life and he can do whatever he pleases with it.

If anything he should've ducked the Korean Godzilla Hong Man Choi, but he didn't.


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

vaj3000 said:


> This is getting beyond a joke now. Is time for these fedor haters to put up or shut up.
> There are constant accusations that fedors ducking the ufc HW division to save his 'legacy' etc etc or that Fedor cant claim to be the best untill he's fought in the UFC HW division.
> 
> So whose fedor scared of?
> ...


You won't ever here me say Fedor is ducking the best! People are saying that because they are extremely pissed off at him for listening to Finklestien (Myself included). Lets face it as a businessman Fedor sucks hard.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

And another reason i would say he is ducking is because the UFC has the best to offer pretty much any fighter in regards to deals. I do not see why if Dana really wants you and is offering a lot for him, he does not accept what i believe is a better deal. though i do not really know since i was not in the meetings.


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## vaj3000 (Dec 28, 2008)

TBH i agree that white probably offered him one hell of a contract, and that finklestein might not have fedors intrests at heart but lets face it fedors not ducking anyone. 

at least he's gonna face the demolition man. The way overeem destroyed badr hari and threw bojanski around like a toy i would hardly call taht an easy option!


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## ZENKI1 (Apr 19, 2009)

You guys are ******* retarded.. The ufc hw division is weak so is the rest of the mma world of hw.. U have a bunch of has been never will be guys out there and then you have Fedor who still hasnt lost.. A man that ran through the top hw guys in there prime.. raise01:

Jus because a fighter chooses not to fight in the great almighty UFC doesnt make him a shit fighter.. LW and lower is stacked overseas and its not ran by the ufc.. So your minor league major league statment is jus FUBAR....


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## ZENKI1 (Apr 19, 2009)

vaj3000 said:


> TBH i agree that white probably offered him one hell of a contract, and that finklestein might not have fedors intrests at heart but lets face it fedors not ducking anyone.
> 
> at least he's gonna face the demolition man. The way overeem destroyed badr hari and threw bojanski around like a toy i would hardly call taht an easy option!


Overeem is far from the lhw bitch he once was the man is day and night difference from then.. Size strength and skill. And honestly right now Id rather see him vs Fedor then Fedor and cock chestnar.. Id much rather see cock chestnar vs Overeem.. I think it jus plays out better with the aftermath of the fights right now..


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## vaj3000 (Dec 28, 2008)

the funniest thing ive ever seen in mma was A) yoshida v thompson or B) lesner telling mir to get up and slug it out only for lesnar to discover that he doesnt like getting hit in the face and take mir down again


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Guy said:


> Come on man cut Fedor some slack TraMaI. You can't really think Fedor is duckin' the UFC do you? He was gonna face the 2nd best HW (at the time) Josh Barnett and he has already stated his desire to face Lesnar. Just because the UFC deal didn't work out doesn't mean he's ducking anybody, he's just being loyal to Vadim. Hey, it pissed me off that he didn't sign with the UFC, but it's his life and he can do whatever he pleases with it.
> 
> If anything he should've ducked the Korean Godzilla Hong Man Choi, but he didn't.


I give him credit for wanting to fight Barnett and I would've loved the fight. But the thing is that even if he does desire to face Lesnar he still turned down one of the most lucrative deals in MMA history and he WONT be fighting Lesnar now. It's hard to say that he isn't ducking anyone when he turns down a deal like $2 mil a fight for 1 mil a fight. Not to mention the other things the UFC had in it (it seems to me he would've gotten a MASSIVE cut from the PPVs). As far as being loyal to his manager goes I think it's horse shit. The dude is obviously NOT his manager. A good manager would've been like "OH HOLY SHIT YOU GET THE BEST OUTLET FOR MMA IN THE WORLD AND $2 MIL A FIGHT MINIMUM??? SIGN US UP!" Vladim is just trying to milk his cashcow for all it's worth, and I don't see a way Fedor doesn't realize that.



ZENKI1 said:


> You guys are ******* retarded.. The ufc hw division is weak so is the rest of the mma world of hw.. U have a bunch of has been never will be guys out there and then you have Fedor who still hasnt lost.. A man that ran through the top hw guys in there prime.. raise01:
> 
> Jus because a fighter chooses not to fight in the great almighty UFC doesnt make him a shit fighter.. LW and lower is stacked overseas and its not ran by the ufc.. So your minor league major league statment is jus FUBAR....


You just basically proved my point with your statement. The HW division may be "weak" all across the world of MMA, but it is undoubtedly the strongest in the UFC. Even with the UFCs HW division being their shallowest pool, its miles deeper than strike force's. And I never said anything about other organizations having a more shallow talent pool in another division. I stated that, compared to the UFC, strike force is very minor league. For Christ's sake they have had how many ex-UFC fighters as champs? Josh Thompson, Frank Shamrock, BOBBY MOTHER ******* SOUTHWORTH?, Diaz and Babalu? Seriously, how can you not see that?


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## vaj3000 (Dec 28, 2008)

^^^^^how many UFC fighters has fedor beat in their prime?


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

I wouldn't say he is ducking anyone... I simply think he is getting played by his management and denying MMA fans what they have wanted for a long time, simply out of greed/pride.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

ZENKI1 said:


> Jus because a fighter chooses not to fight in the great almighty UFC doesnt make him a shit fighter.. LW and lower is stacked overseas and its not ran by the ufc.. So your minor league major league statment is jus FUBAR....


7 of the top 10 pound for pound fighters in sherdog are in the UFC. two of them are too low weight to fight in UFC.

i agree the HW is pretty weak all around, yet still. 5 of the top 10 HW fighters are in the ufc.

An incredible 9/10 in the LHW.

8/10 now for MW.

9/10 in WW.

5/10 in LW.

Most of the top fighters fight in UFC because you get more money and a bigger name. that is why it is the Majors and Everything else just does not have the same top fighters.

i could go to other sites but i do not really feel like it.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

And i am not looking at the past. lets look at who he will fight in the future since he wants to keep fighting. Bigger names in UFC, more money, better for getting common fans, Dana offering him what was supposed to be the biggest deal in like MMA history... and he has not said yes. what is the reason for not coming. i am sure he will still be a good fighter if he goes somewhere else i just do not see the reason why not accept?


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## Dedicate (Aug 10, 2008)

Brock, Mir, Carwin, Randy, Junior Dos Santos, GG, Kongo, Cain, Nog, and CC.

Any of these guys can beat a belt holding HW or top contender in any other organization. I am not saying they would destroy or walk through everyone, but they all have the skills to beat any HW. Fedor is not any HW true. They all have the skills to become legends in the sport, Randy already is.


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## Blitzz (Apr 13, 2009)

vaj3000 said:


> ^^^^^how many UFC fighters has fedor beat in their prime?


To my knowledge 1. Kevin Randleman.

Nog, Herring, and Cro Cop were all in their prime in Pride and Sylvia and Arlovski were both past their prime when they fought Fedor. All good fighters, but not in their prime when they fought Fedor.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Blitzz said:


> To my knowledge 1. Kevin Randleman.
> 
> Nog, Herring, and Cro Cop were all in their prime in Pride and Sylvia and Arlovski were both past their prime when they fought Fedor. All good fighters, but not in their prime when they fought Fedor.


I agree. i would have liked to see him figt josh but that went to hell.


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## vaj3000 (Dec 28, 2008)

Blitzz said:


> To my knowledge 1. Kevin Randleman.
> 
> Nog, Herring, and Cro Cop were all in their prime in Pride and Sylvia and Arlovski were both past their prime when they fought Fedor. All good fighters, but not in their prime when they fought Fedor.


i think AA or sylvia werent exactly out there prime but BOTH have been exposed as either having a glass jaw or limited technique.



Dedicate said:


> Brock, Mir, Carwin, Randy, Junior Dos Santos, GG, Kongo, Cain, Nog, and CC.
> 
> Any of these guys can beat a belt holding HW or top contender in any other organization. I am not saying they would destroy or walk through everyone, but they all have the skills to beat any HW. Fedor is not any HW true. They all have the skills to become legends in the sport, Randy already is.


congo...roflmao

As for mir, couture, nog an CC.... the latter 2 fedor beat comprehensively, mir is overated and couture is past it.

As for carwin and cain im looking forward to see them in action to see if theyre the real deal


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## ZENKI1 (Apr 19, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> You just basically proved my point with your statement. The HW division may be "weak" all across the world of MMA, but it is undoubtedly the strongest in the UFC. Even with the UFCs HW division being their shallowest pool, its miles deeper than strike force's. And I never said anything about other organizations having a more shallow talent pool in another division. I stated that, compared to the UFC, strike force is very minor league. For Christ's sake they have had how many ex-UFC fighters as champs? Josh Thompson, Frank Shamrock, BOBBY MOTHER ******* SOUTHWORTH?, Diaz and Babalu? Seriously, how can you not see that?


Incorrect.. Dont twist my opinion to favor yours. Let me clear this up the HW division is weak right now world wide. You buying into ufc propaganda because its here in the states with you and is tied to mma here and believing that there hw fighters are the best in the world is fubar. You also say your not speaking of any other weight classes but yet u bring up Frank Shamrock and others claiming these fighters are has beens because there not on the ufc rooster.. Thats fuckin insane.. Diaz for one is ten folds better now then he ever was when under the contract with the ufc.. Jus because a fighter goes else where to create more of a name doenst take away from skill or the possiblity of being a contender down the road in the ufc.. Look at Belfort . Back to the subject of Fedor , with him under SF contract anything is possible .. Thats the good thing.. There open to co-promoting and also have a tv contract which will build Fedor's fan base even more .. 



vaj3000 said:


> ^^^^^how many UFC fighters has fedor beat in their prime?


He was kicking tk ass the first go round. Coleman , Hearing , Nog , Cro ??? WHo are u looking for? Timmy and AA can join the list to if ya like...



The505Butcher said:


> 7 of the top 10 pound for pound fighters in sherdog are in the UFC. two of them are too low weight to fight in UFC.
> 
> i agree the HW is pretty weak all around, yet still. 5 of the top 10 HW fighters are in the ufc.
> 
> ...


P4p from shitdog means nothing its pure opinion.. Your not catching my drift.. The ufc is huge in the states the ufc is known world wide.. But the ufc is not precieved by all and accepted all around the world like it is here.. Why do u think so many Jap superstars stay in Japan? For the same damn reason Fedor doesnt sell out and jump on the UFC bandwagon without wanting a arena and co promotion.. lol.. Only the general public here feels that the ufc is major and all others is minor. Me personally I enjoy the whole spectrum. UFC or anything else I able to understand and accept that fighters can be reborn and anything can happen anywhere at anytime in any promotion so I enjoy it all.. I dont stereo type orgs because Im hugging ufc nuts.



Dedicate said:


> Brock, Mir, Carwin, Randy, Junior Dos Santos, GG, Kongo, Cain, Nog, and CC.
> 
> Any of these guys can beat a belt holding HW or top contender in any other organization. I am not saying they would destroy or walk through everyone, but they all have the skills to beat any HW. Fedor is not any HW true. They all have the skills to become legends in the sport, Randy already is.


CC ? U mean Cro Cop? BUHAHAHAHA>.. He was getting ass whooped by Strikeforce hw belt holder OVEREEM.. Goddamn them nut shots.. lol.. Im gonna have to argue with you and say that Overeem could possibly walk through half the people if not more that u listed..


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

I am not hugging anyones nuts. just Looking at what i see out of the fighters. i put that up because its the first site to some up when looking for the most recent MMA ranking. fedor is good. i see good Low weight japanese fighters, but i have not seen many that i like in higher weight classes. which is the ones that i feel are more fun to watch. Not using as a very good source but even InsideMMA pretty much says that UFC is the biggest and best organization out there to the faces of fighters from other organizations. and if i recall correctly all those fighters agreed.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

Stop double posting guys, I'm tired of cleaning it up.


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## mmawrestler (May 18, 2008)

Brock, Mir, COutoure, Gonzaga, Nogiera, Dossantos, Cropcop,
Congo, Carvin, Vesaquez. there is ten very solid heavyweight fighters. Fedor has beaten a couple, but I think he hasnt face someonw like Carwin, or Veslacuez in a long long time.

Fedor is still the #1 hw in the world, but I no longer consider him the best p4p fighter



jennathebenda said:


> I think Fedor is ducking the cage more than anything.


Stirckeforce is held in a cage.
But knowing Finklefuck he would probly want it held in a Ring with trap doors that he only has access to the controls, or maybe the yamma pit made of yam potatos


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Blitzz said:


> To my knowledge 1. Kevin Randleman.
> 
> Nog, Herring, and Cro Cop were all in their prime in Pride and Sylvia and Arlovski were both past their prime when they fought Fedor. All good fighters, but not in their prime when they fought Fedor.


This. 

He's beat almost none unless you count Nog and CC etc. All of whom I consider PRIDE fighters.

Also to go with Butcher, how about the IWMMA rankings eh? Some of the biggest fight analysts and authorities on MMA all coem together as a collective group to rank fighters.



> Heavyweight Rankings (206 to 265 lbs.)
> 1. Fedor Emelianenko (30-1, 1 No Contest)
> 2. *Frank Mir (12-3)*
> 3. Josh Barnett (24-5)
> ...


UFC Completely outclasses Strike Force, any way you slice it man.


> CC ? U mean Cro Cop? BUHAHAHAHA>.. He was getting ass whooped by Strikeforce hw belt holder OVEREEM.. Goddamn them nut shots.. lol.. Im gonna have to argue with you and say that Overeem could possibly walk through half the people if not more that u listed..


Know what's funny? You said he'd walk through half? HE'S THE BEST FIGHTER STRIKE FORCE HAS! If he can only beat half of the top 10 HWs in the UFC then Fedor has no business fighting him IMO.
EDIT: Shit how can i forget Coleman? wow.

EDIT2: Goin else where "to make a name" for yourself doesnt count when you get CUT :thumbsup:

Also, I'd like to say I'm not hugging the UFCs nuts, I'm picking at Fedor because he obviously signed a less lucrative deal with an organization who has less talent.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> This.
> 
> He's beat almost none unless you count Nog and CC etc. All of whom I consider PRIDE fighters.
> 
> ...


Twice. 


The only fighter of recent days that Fedor faced that wouldn't be a threat to the top UFC HWs is maybe Matt Lindland, I dunno who thought of that fight.


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## mmawrestler (May 18, 2008)

When did overeem become so highy overated? was it when he repetedly kneed CC in the balls? was it when he got KTFO by chuck at lhw? I know he won the stikeforce title and all, but how is he ranked above Carwin?


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

I wouldn't say he's ranked "Highly" over Carwin, but he has the belt and has beaten better opponents in the past. I think that's why he got the nod eh?


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## lpbigd4444 (Oct 1, 2008)

I only read the 1st page of the thread so im sorry if someone said this but Fedor isn duckin or scared but IS a puppet. His management is in complete control of him and his management is full of morons. They got to copromote with Affliction and that was the worst promo job ever. The ufc offered everything EVERYTHING except copromotion and they wouldn take it. They offered the richest contract an immediate title shot (obviously) and even said he could fight all of the ***** he wanted. So people thinkin this has to do with ***** are dilusional cuz it was never about *****. The ufc threw a great offer down and catered to all of fedor's needs as a man by offering the money AND the *****. They just didn do what M1 wants and they shouldn ever do that cuz it would be a massive mistake. I now know Fedor will never fight in the ufc because Dana and the Fertittas are too smart to share the pie with M1


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## olkeller (Jul 6, 2008)

vaj3000 said:


> This is getting beyond a joke now. Is time for these fedor haters to put up or shut up.
> There are constant accusations that fedors ducking the ufc HW division to save his 'legacy' etc etc or that Fedor cant claim to be the best untill he's fought in the UFC HW division.
> 
> So whose fedor scared of?
> ...



Here is the thing we dont know if he is ducking the best you dont either. I dont think where Brock sits actually because he is always improving and so green. Now we wont know either. I want to see Lesnar tested so then we can see where he sits and he isnt going to be now.

I have seen alot of people devoted to Fedor Talk about him like he is the Messiah and I'm not convinced. 

Why did they ask for the impossible then?

At this piont I dont care I think there is something up with Fedor and now its perfect for his Legacy. So if anybody can sit back and answer the above question honestly you have to wonder.

Also do any of us know how good Brock is going to be at his next Fight.

I dont even like the HW division personally. I am just over Fedor and cant come up with a good answer to the first question.


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## donttouchthat (Dec 31, 2006)

I completely agree with TS. I have never actually been annoyed at the ignorance of some posters until now. Seriously, Fedor is ducking competition? Give me a break. Until Barnett tested positive, Fedor would have fought, Syliva, Arlovski, Barnett back to back. Name any three fighters in the UFC HW division that would have been better? 

Who is there in the UFC that Fedor needs to fight? Brock? Randy? Really? Brock should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Fedor. He has 5 professional fights (one of them being a loss to Frank Mir). This would be like saying Chuck Lidell needed to go to Pride and beat Sokoudjou to cement his legacy because of Sokoudjous performances against Arona and Nog. Brock has a long way to go, and in my opinion, he will never be as great as Fedor. The HW Talent pool is not as exciting as it was before. 

Likely, I see Nog beating Brock if they were to fight. So, would Fedor need to come and beat Nog for the 3rd time? To prove what?

Fedor is the best HW in the world, if people want to fight him, they should leave the UFC and do it. 

For all of you saying you want to see Fedor/Randy, why don't you blame the UFC for not letting Randy fight him when he left the UFC to do so. Do you not remember what happened?


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## TigerKneeCrush (Jul 23, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> Cain, Carwin, Mir and Lesnar. Not to mention he will never fight Randy now. Also, he didn't duck "legendary" fighters, he just ducked an organization with much more talent than Strike force. I mean who do they have over there he can fight? Werdum? Brett Rogers? Please. The only fighter I see even possibly giving him problems is Overeem and I still think Fedor would wreck him. Point is that he KNOWS the best fighters in the world are in the Major Leagues (UFC) not in the minors (SF). And it will always be that way. New heavy weight prospects that are really good are going ot be picked up and be fighting in the UFC. Strike force is nothing more than the Home for Lost MMA Fighters. Seriously, their HW divisions #1 contender is someone who was CUT from the UFC. Add to the fact that the UFC gave him a massively more lucrative contract and the only reason he wont sign is because they won't co-promote? Sorry dude, but my ass.


are you in love with Jon "The Blanket" Fitch cuz he keeps you warm at night?


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

TigerKneeCrush said:


> are you in love with Jon "The Blanket" Fitch cuz he keeps you warm at night?


What is the point of this question?


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

Guy said:


> and he has already stated his desire to face Lesnar.


Fair enough, I wanna fight Lesnar too! Its easy to want to fight whoever pops into your mind when you know you wont end up fighting him (or her) anyway. Im not saying Fedor is scared or anything, but if he really wanted it to happen he would, instead of trying to get dumb co-promote contracts with M-1 that he and his manager knows wont ever happen.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

TigerKneeCrush said:


> are you in love with Jon "The Blanket" Fitch cuz he keeps you warm at night?


lololololol stellar arguement. Sorry for stating my opinion I forgot it wasn't allowed in your presence. Red goes your rep, sir.


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## KryptoNITE^^ (Jul 27, 2009)

TigerKneeCrush said:


> are you in love with Jon "The Blanket" Fitch cuz he keeps you warm at night?


I have to admit, I LOL'd at this.

Rep +1.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Just for a little perspective:

Sylvia was UFC HW champ. Randy fought him and couldn't finish him in 3 rounds but won by decision. A year later Fedor destroyed Sylvia in an unbelievably lopsided match that lasted forty seconds.

If Lesnar hadn't come in and got the title, there would be far less debate about the caliber of UFC HW's v Fedor. And Randy was controlling a much bigger and younger Lesnar for a while until Lesnar got that punch to the back of Randy's head.

I know it's MMAmath, but something to consider.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

lpbigd4444 said:


> I only read the 1st page of the thread so im sorry if someone said this but Fedor isn duckin or scared but IS a puppet. His management is in complete control of him and his management is full of morons. They got to copromote with Affliction and that was the worst promo job ever. The ufc offered everything EVERYTHING except copromotion and they wouldn take it. They offered the richest contract an immediate title shot (obviously) and even said he could fight all of the ***** he wanted. So people thinkin this has to do with ***** are dilusional cuz it was never about *****. The ufc threw a great offer down and catered to all of fedor's needs as a man by offering the money AND the *****. They just didn do what M1 wants and they shouldn ever do that cuz it would be a massive mistake. I now know Fedor will never fight in the ufc because Dana and the Fertittas are too smart to share the pie with M1


People assume Russian contract laws are the same as in the US.. In the us most contracts have clauses where if your manager can be fired if you feel he is not serving your best interests.. Russia I would all but bet there are no clauses like this.. When the government controls all they do the way they do citizens get to the point they do not question orders. Fedor spent time in the Russian military. So you know he follows orders with out question.. I bet if you read is management contract he probably is owned until he hangs up the gloves or Defects from Russia.. which Fedor is a patriot of his country.. he I seriously doubt will that. Hence the so called silence on the phone call and not saying something when the most lucrative fighters contract of all time is offered but his management does not accept it. 

So unless you know whats in Fedor's contract with his management don't presume to think he is even able to make a decision in his own fighting career, sadly... This more then likely rest solely on his manager who is acting more in M-1's best interest then in Fedor's. 



khoveraki said:


> Just for a little perspective:
> 
> Sylvia was UFC HW champ. Randy fought him and couldn't finish him in 3 rounds but won by decision. A year later Fedor destroyed Sylvia in an unbelievably lopsided match that lasted forty seconds.
> 
> ...


In sports MMAmath (or the sports equivalent) is never something to consider.. while it is fun to play with it really holds no relevance at all in deciding the outcome of a fight. You could find a fighter with the exact oppisite record of Fedor's stick them in the ring and he may be Fedor 10 out of 10 times or go 5 out of 10. you have no way of know. Still tough... MMAmath is fun to play with at times


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## MenorcanMadman (Jan 8, 2009)

He's not, the comp outside the UFC is just as good as the comp in it.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Funny how people have been calling the UFC heavyweight division weak for a couple of years, yet the weaklings keep winning fights when they're supposed to lose. 
I wonder how well guys like Brock Lesnar, Shane Carwin and Cain Velasquez would have done in Pride. My guess is very well.
If anything, the UFC heavyweight division has becone underrated these days, and the guys outside it are overrated.
I'm not saying Fedor is ducking anyone. I'm saying he's find more challenges in UFC than many of his fans are willing to admit.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Let's break down the two divisions, shall we?

UFC:

Lesnar - 4-1, has 3 solid wins, with 1 loss via sub in the first.

Carwin - 11-0, biggest win is Gonzaga, no other wins on his resume worth talking about.

Cain - 6-0, biggest win is Kongo, need I say more?

Mir - 12-3, has a wins over Nog, Brock, Sylvia. He is the ONLY guy in the UFC that I would have interest in seeing Fedor fight.

Randy - Good fighter, but wouldn't do well against Fedor(everyone agreed to this before any of this even happened).

Strikeforce:

Overeem - 29-11, he's on a 4 fight win streak with wins over Cro Cop(we all know he won that fight), Hunt, etc.

Rogers - 10-0, his best win was against former UFC champion AND was an underdog in that fight. Knocked him out in the first.

Monson - 31-8, now, he isn't exactly "with" Strikeforce, but he would have no problems signing to fight Fedor. This fight would most likely happen. He's on a 7 fight win streak with guys like Sergei, Ricco, Nelson, etc.

Werdum - 11-4, good fighter, tough guy, has wins over GG and Vera, as well has having really good BJJ.

So, by looking at this list, the actual difference between the two division aren't THAT big. I'd say UFC has more "stars", but we all know guys like Monson, Overeem, Rogers(he's very similar to Carwin and Cain, all undefeated with 1 huge name on their resume), would do just as well in the UFC as the guys that are actually in the UFC.


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## Alex_DeLarge (Sep 5, 2006)

I don't see Overeem beating any of those fighters. I don't see Rogers beating any of those fighters. I don't see Werdum beating any of those fighters. Monson would have a good fight with Couture and Mir but probably lose both of them.

Overall, I'd say the UFC heavyweight division is better, mainly because those UFC heavyweights have very imposing wrestling skills that would most likely nullify all of those Strikeforce heavyweights outside of possibly Werdum on the ground, but W's stand-up isn't there which leads me to believe he'd have trouble fighting guys like Couture and Mir.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Monson has a great ground game, Werdum has a great ground game, and Overeem has a good ground game, although not as good as the other two. Overeem is also strong has has solid striking and power.

Overweem would outstrike any of the heavywieghts in the UFC, and he has decent wrestling and decent ground game to go with it. Monson has very underrated striking, he actaully has decent striking. Werdum..well, he beat GG and Vera in the UFC, he was only cut from 1 loss, which was ridiculous.


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## DavidCaruso (May 31, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> Let's break down the two divisions, shall we?
> 
> UFC:
> 
> ...


People have selective memory with Couture. It wasn't that long ago that he tried to fight elsewhere to go against Fedor but was denied because he was bound to a contract with the UFC. Sound familiar? Let's not forget that most UFC fans thought he was committing a travesty by not defending his title even though he didn't want to anymore.

Also despite what most people believe M-1 has been running global events with any nations that have agreed to compete. Their format is actually pretty interesting IMO. They do have a global market (small but still) and do televise their competition in over 100 countries. Over 30 nations have signed up for their most recent tournament and they're trying to solely promote themselves in Los Angeles on August 28th for the first time.

They may be a business people shit on over here, but it appears that elsewhere they've generated a buzz in other parts of the world. I honestly can't fault them for trying to negotiate for as much money as they can squeeze out of the UFC, Strikeforce, or elsewhere. They're still a business and a business that's hoping to thrive off arguably the best fighter of all time.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

I'm not sure why you quoted me and type that post, as it really doesn't have anything to do with it, but I agree with your post, generally speaking.


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## DavidCaruso (May 31, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> I'm not sure why you quoted me and type that post, as it really doesn't have anything to do with it, but I agree with your post, generally speaking.


Just meant that I agree with your assessment.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Ahh, cool.


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> Overweem would outstrike any of the heavywieghts in the UFC, and he has decent wrestling and decent ground game to go with it.


agreed. I think he has the ability to beat any HW in the UFC. 


...And Scrubs is quite possibly the best sitcom ever.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

It is a great show, yes.


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## vaj3000 (Dec 28, 2008)

Theres 1 fight that is the cause of all this. Mir V NOg. If Mir can beat nog again in the same fashion then we'll know nog wasnt having an off day. This will put frank mir and lesnar into perspective.


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## kay_o_ken (Jan 26, 2009)

mostly brock, my opinion is that he would dominate fedor even though i would love to see fedor beat him, i mean i dont right him off completely but if i were to put money on it it'd definitely be on brock


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## vaj3000 (Dec 28, 2008)

before alot of you start saying that overeem cant cut it in ufc hw...all im saying is he hits alot harder than lesnar



















...and you can safely assume that a can like herring wouldnt take him to a decision. IMHO lesnar is almost like a glorified version of paulo filho.


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## KryptoNITE^^ (Jul 27, 2009)

vaj3000 said:


> before alot of you start saying that overeem cant cut it in ufc hw...all im saying is he hits alot harder than lesnar
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Overeem is like Mir in a sense. you hit him a couple of times, he stops fighting.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

KryptoNITE^^ said:


> Overeem is like Mir in a sense. you hit him a couple of times, he stops fighting.


Just a few posts in and it's already safe to assume you know little to nothing of the sport outside UFC. 

Actually, with that statement, it's seems like you know little about the UFC too. 

The UFC won't co promote with anyone. Seems like a great way to never have perspective with their fighters, especially the HW division. We don't know if Overeem would destroy the top fighters in UFC's HW division, but simply look at his performance v. Herrings, or Lesnars, or Couture's.


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## KryptoNITE^^ (Jul 27, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> *Just a few posts in and it's already safe to assume you know little to nothing of the sport outside UFC.
> 
> Actually, with that statement, it's seems like you know little about the UFC too. *
> 
> The UFC won't co promote with anyone. Seems like a great way to never have perspective with their fighters, especially the HW division. We don't know if Overeem would destroy the top fighters in UFC's HW division, but simply look at his performance v. Herrings, or Lesnars, or Couture's.


Really?

How so? 

Care to explain?

:confused03:


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

KryptoNITE^^ said:


> Really?
> 
> How so?
> 
> ...



Writing off Overeem and Frank Mir in the same breath. Where to do you get that Mir gasses after getting hit a few times? Have you ever seen him fight?

And I don't know a single knowledgeable fan that would say Overeem couldn't beat Lesnar. 


UFC nutswingers are the same, very quick to write off other fighters. You either say "oh, if he was really good he'd be in the UFC" which simply isn't true. Have you seen Overeem fight? Have you seen Barnett fight? Have you seen Fedor? Mousasi? Monson? Sobral? Aleksander Emelianenko?

There's a lot of good fighters outside the UFC, and there's people like you who simply have not seen them fight. Watch any of those guys fight and tell me they're not technically superior to a lot of UFC's HW division.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

Keep it friendly people.


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## SonofJor-El (Jan 20, 2008)

vaj3000 said:


> This is getting beyond a joke now. Is time for these fedor haters to put up or shut up.
> 
> So whose fedor scared of?


- His manager
- A pen and a contract
- Dana White
- The Fertittas


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> UFC nutswingers are the same, very quick to write off other fighters. You either say "oh, if he was really good he'd be in the UFC" which simply isn't true. Have you seen Overeem fight? Have you seen Barnett fight? Have you seen Fedor? Mousasi? Monson? Sobral? Aleksander Emelianenko?
> 
> There's a lot of good fighters outside the UFC, and there's people like you who simply have not seen them fight. Watch any of those guys fight and tell me they're not technically superior to a lot of UFC's HW division.


Not saying there are only good fighters in the UFC. Just a lot of the best fighters are in the UFC. I mean its easy to beat on people who are not the greatest fighters out there if you are a good fighter. Fedor is good and i want to see him in the UFC because i think the best comp is there. He can fight goo opponents out of the UFC as well, but i would rather watch them against Mir, Lesnar, Nog, Cain, Gonzaga. Its not that the people who are saying he should fight in the ufc do not know anything about MMA or any of its fighters.


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## SonofJor-El (Jan 20, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> UFC nutswingers are the same, very quick to write off other fighters. You either say "oh, if he was really good he'd be in the UFC" which simply isn't true. Have you seen Overeem fight? Have you seen Barnett fight? Have you seen Fedor? Mousasi? Monson? Sobral? Aleksander Emelianenko?
> 
> There's a lot of good fighters outside the UFC, and there's people like you who simply have not seen them fight.


UFC haters are all the same. They diss UFC fans for not being "knowledgable" about MMA outside of the UFC but never acknowledge that the reason a lot of the aforementioned fighters aren't known to the general MMA public is because they all CHOOSE to fight for SHITTY promotions. These promotions have a few good fighters but the OVERALL competition and talent pool in these organizations is LAUGHABLY WEAK. 

If Fedor want to fight cans and UFC washouts the rest of his career, I wish him well. We fans of the UFC that "don't know anything" are perfectly content to watch the organization with the best competition and deepest talent in the world, being blissful in our ignorance.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

vaj3000 said:


> Lesnar looks the best bet and thats simply because of his size. Fair play to lesnar for learning to use it but i still would like to see a couple of more fights before i start raving about him. I see lesnar ( from what ive seen of him) give fedor a good fight butas for some of the other names being thrown around like carwin etc i hardly think fedor would duck them.
> 
> Couture is past it, mir is overated. As for bashing overeem i wouldnt be so sure he'd give any of the UFC fighter a run for their money.
> The only problem, i have with lesnar is that i have the feeling that we are giving him wheey too much credit. Lesnar couldnt even finish off heath herring fedor beat him when he was a hell of alot more competitive.


Overreem would not pass a drug test, thats a pretty for sure


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## ZENKI1 (Apr 19, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> This.
> 
> He's beat almost none unless you count Nog and CC etc. All of whom I consider PRIDE fighters.
> 
> ...


Are you blind? Ignorant? Or jus a mix of both? Pride is long gone so there is no current fighters out there fighting in the name of that org.. Nog is a current ufc fighter title contender and even way past his prime still taking it to the hw division. CC is not a Pride fighter he isnt a ufc fighter. He is a Dream fighter. Ignore the facts of the fighters listed is funny but Im going to have to leave you with that because there is point of discussing mma with you when your blind to the facts of history.. :thumb02:


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> Writing off Overeem and Frank Mir in the same breath. Where to do you get that Mir gasses after getting hit a few times? Have you ever seen him fight?
> 
> And I don't know a single knowledgeable fan that would say Overeem couldn't beat Lesnar.
> 
> ...


What the hell makes you think I don't watch other organizations? I've seen every pride event, many EXC, strike force and smaller organization's events. Way to generalize and fail.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> What the hell makes you think I don't watch other organizations? I've seen every pride event, many EXC, strike force and smaller organization's events. Way to generalize and fail.


Nice proof buddy. I invented the nuclear bomb and the letter Q. This means you fail. Right?? Right????

Nobody is buying that you're at all knowledgeable and your opinions reek of an MMA newcomer.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

Lol Cain, Carwin, Kongo even Gonzaga would all kill Overeem, that guy is the most overated fighter right now, He wouldnt be near the title in the UFC.

Its not legends Fedor needs to beat to prove his legacy. Its the new breed of HWs the UFC has. The huge powerful fighters they have right now in Cain Carwin and lesnar. He has already beat the legends in Nog and Cro Cop. COuld fight Couture but i think Fedor would destroy him. If he doesnt wanna come in and prove he is still the best HW fighter whatever then, f-ck him just retire short of a legacy in my eyes. I am talking about my favorite fighter here to.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> Nice proof buddy. I invented the nuclear bomb and the letter Q. This means you fail. Right?? Right????
> 
> Nobody is buying that you're at all knowledgeable and your opinions reek of an MMA newcomer.


Not really. just because he does not support who you like does not mean it is a new comer opinion. You called into question everyone's knowledge of MMA like you are some Guru and we should all think what you think. Learn how to argue points of MMA and not insult the people talking about it.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> Not really. just because he does not support who you like does not mean it is a new comer opinion. You called into question everyone's knowledge of MMA like you are some Guru and we should all think what you think. Learn how to argue points of MMA and not insult the people talking about it.


The topic of "UFC's fighters are the best, EVERYONE else is a can" cannot be argued reasonably or logically. This has been proven 100000x over.

Either a fighter isn't good enough to get into the UFC or left it because he couldn't compete in it. This opinion is held strong by a lot of people who only get UFC on their TV and therefor know of nothing else. On the internet it's different; any random person can go to wikipedia and list off names of other organizations and claim they've seen them.

There's no proof in that, the only proof is how you present yourself and your opinions. When you present it like this: Frank Mir and Overeem gas after being hit [paraphrased], you won't be providing much proof for your knowledge.


Another good way to judge these kind of fans is if you ask them how X fighter will beat Y fighter next. For example, they might think Silva will lay back and have a boring decision fight against Griffin.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

That opinion of getting into the UFC or not being able to compete in it is held by quite a lot of people, not all of them people who only watch UFC. I say that i have not watched a lot of the Japan fights, because it is hard for me to see them. But i do watch the bug fights on the internet and if it is a fight that people say someone did something very good or not in i tend to look for it.

I agree that people need to give reason's why they feel a certain way and i think that Trai has been doing it. You may not agree but saying that he does not know aanything about MMA or calling him a liar when he says he has watched things is not needed. Trai and i have both said that there are numerous fighters outside of the UFC that are good and in some cases great. Yet when looking at which top fighters fighting in which organizations, can you not agree that most of them fight in the UFC?


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> Funny how people have been calling the UFC heavyweight division weak for a couple of years, yet the weaklings keep winning fights when they're supposed to lose.
> I wonder how well guys like Brock Lesnar, Shane Carwin and Cain Velasquez would have done in Pride. My guess is very well.
> If anything, the UFC heavyweight division has becone underrated these days, and the guys outside it are overrated.
> I'm not saying Fedor is ducking anyone. I'm saying he's find more challenges in UFC than many of his fans are willing to admit.


That's what Chuck Liddell and Dana White thought when they decided to send participate in PRIDE GP 2003 in hope to fight Wanderlei. Randelman also expected easy fights in PRIDE, but ended up with 4-7 record. Anderson Silva was 3-2 in PRIDE, but in UFC he became a champion with ease. Barnett won UFC HW title by beating Couture with 4-1 record overall, but in PRIDE he started with 2 losses in a row and 5-4 overall (not so good). Pedro Rizzo had a good career in UFC, was #1 contender once, 9-5 UFC record, his last 2 fights on the contract he won. When he came in PRIDE he got his face demolished by 2 relatively unknown Russian fighters: in 2 minutes by Kharitonov and in 26 seconds by Zentsov. No competition, huh? If UFC had ceased to exist and majority of UFC fighters came to PRIDE, most of them would've been stopped badly.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> Nice proof buddy. I invented the nuclear bomb and the letter Q. This means you fail. Right?? Right????
> 
> Nobody is buying that you're at all knowledgeable and your opinions reek of an MMA newcomer.


HAHAHAHAHA. Okay, which part of me reeks of an MMA new comer? My three years of MMA Training? My Five years of watching MMA? In depth, non-biased breakdowns of fights? Or how about me being member of the week last week? Seriously, leave. Your rep is going to be hella red in like .2 seconds man.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> HAHAHAHAHA. Okay, which part of me reeks of an MMA new comer? My three years of MMA Training? My Five years of watching MMA? In depth, non-biased breakdowns of fights? Or how about me being member of the week last week? Seriously, leave. Your rep is going to be hella red in like .2 seconds man.


How about you absolutely disregarding Overeem's stand up skill? Or the entire majorly bias post that ZENKI1 quoted? And then not defending how you think Frank Mir quits fighting after being hit?


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

WHOA, when the hell did I say ANY OF THAT!? I never disregarded Overeem. I said he's the only one who would give Fedor a challenge in SF.

And I'm definitely not the one who said he's going to quit after getting hit in the face a few times. hahhahaha holy crap you're so off your rocker man. BACK TO SHERDOG PLZ.

EDIT: definitely went through the thread again. Read my post on the first page and eat your own fail. 



KryptoNITE^^ said:


> Overeem is like Mir in a sense. you hit him a couple of times, he stops fighting.


please take note of the name on that post. And I'm a newcomer.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> WHOA, when the hell did I say ANY OF THAT!? I never disregarded Overeem. I said he's the only one who would give Fedor a challenge in SF.
> 
> And I'm definitely not the one who said he's going to quit after getting hit in the face a few times. hahhahaha holy crap you're so off your rocker man. BACK TO SHERDOG PLZ.


LMFAO, re-read the thread. We both fucked up. I was talking about that guy KRYPTONITE or whatever, and you responded to my post like I was talking about you. Then I just assumed it was you I was talking about since I didn't go back to check names.

My bad buddy, nothing was aimed at you so I have no idea why you quoted me and responded.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

You quoted me bro. Egg's on your face, don't try and wipe it off with a napkin of lies >:[



I quoted you because you were referring to us "ufc nut swingers."


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> You quoted me bro. Egg's on your face, don't try and wipe it off with a napkin of lies >:[
> 
> 
> 
> I quoted you because you were referring to us "ufc nut swingers."


Go to post #56. I was talking to and about kyptonite. Then at post #65 you quoted me for some reason and I thought it was him.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Nut swingers line got me 


EDIT: JFC sorry. I get offended way too easily apparently >.>


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> Nut swingers line got me


Ah no biggy, I wasn't targeting you. I watch 90% UFC too since I get it for free and it's on Spike almost every day here. It's my favorite show since Pride dissolved, but you can sometimes reaaally tell when someone ONLY watches it, and still somehow has an opinion on every other organization.

I got an infraction for accidentally responding to you instead of that other guy, haha. but looks like you got one too? our bad.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Pos rep as soon as I can lol


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

The_Senator said:


> That's what Chuck Liddell and Dana White thought when they decided to send participate in PRIDE GP 2003 in hope to fight Wanderlei. Randelman also expected easy fights in PRIDE, but ended up with 4-7 record. Anderson Silva was 3-2 in PRIDE, but in UFC he became a champion with ease. Barnett won UFC HW title by beating Couture with 4-1 record overall, but in PRIDE he started with 2 losses in a row and 5-4 overall (not so good). Pedro Rizzo had a good career in UFC, was #1 contender once, 9-5 UFC record, his last 2 fights on the contract he won. When he came in PRIDE he got his face demolished by 2 relatively unknown Russian fighters: in 2 minutes by Kharitonov and in 26 seconds by Zentsov. No competition, huh? If UFC had ceased to exist and majority of UFC fighters came to PRIDE, most of them would've been stopped badly.


Thanks for the history lesson. But I could also cite severalk examples of fighters making the Pride-to-UFC switch and faring poorly there.
I won't, however, because I'm not here to argue that UFC-signed heavyweights would walk all over heavyweights signed elsewhere. I said people continue to underrate fighters in the UFC heavyweight division, much as you're doing now.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

vandalian said:


> *I won, however*, because I'm not here to argue that UFC-signed heavyweights would walk all over heavyweights signed elsewhere.* I said people continue to underrate fighters in the UFC heavyweight division*, much as you're doing now.


Uh... rating is a process in which you compare one fighter to another. We don't know how good UFC's HW division is now because a top fighter from UFC HW hasn't fought a top fighter from anywhere else.

We could use MMA math way better to prove the UFC HW division is weak a lot better than we could use it to prove it's strong, however.


----------



## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> Thanks for the history lesson. But I could also cite severalk examples of fighters making the Pride-to-UFC switch and faring poorly there.
> I won, however, because I'm not here to argue that UFC-signed heavyweights would walk all over heavyweights signed elsewhere. I said people continue to underrate fighters in the UFC heavyweight division, much as you're doing now


The point was to show that PRIDE fighters were good fighters and not worse than the ones from UFC. That's all I wanted, because sometimes people think that if you fight in UFC you're automatically better than a fighter competing somewhere else. About everything else I pretty much agree with you.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Just to be clear, I meant to say, *I won't*, rather than *I won*.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> Uh... rating is a process in which you compare one fighter to another. We don't know how good UFC's HW division is now because a top fighter from UFC HW hasn't fought a top fighter from anywhere else.
> 
> We could use MMA math way better to prove the UFC HW division is weak a lot better than we could use it to prove it's strong, however.




I dont know the UFC HW title is the only one with a substantial lineage at this point.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Toxic said:


> I dont know the UFC HW title is the only one with a substantial lineage at this point.


I meant in a sense that, an old timer (46) took the belt in decision from someone another top HW (Fedor) beat in 30 seconds. Then the old timer got beat by a WWE wrestler who weighed 40lbs+ more.


----------



## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

khoveraki said:


> I meant in a sense that, an old timer (46) took the belt in decision from someone another top HW (Fedor) beat in 30 seconds. Then the old timer got beat by a WWE wrestler who weighed 40lbs+ more.


You guys need to remember that pride never tested for anabolic steroids and that in itself could explain alot of reasons why pride fighters beat ufc fighters when they fought in pride and why pride fighters didnt fair as well in the ufc


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

jcal said:


> You guys need to remember that pride never tested for anabolic steroids and that in itself could explain alot of reasons why pride fighters beat ufc fighters when they fought in pride and why pride fighters didnt fair as well in the ufc


Steroids don't make a good fighter, not one bit.


----------



## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> Steroids don't make a good fighter, not one bit.


:thumb02:

Ask "Baby Fedor." To be honest though, all the expectations placed on him and pressure he was under in order to live up to Fedor's standards were too much for the guy and I can't really blame him for juicing.


----------



## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

khoveraki said:


> Steroids don't make a good fighter, not one bit.


No what they do is make a good fighter better stronger and better endurance, so u cant act like they have no effect at all. Thats just being niave


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## Blitzz (Apr 13, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> I meant in a sense that, an old timer (46) took the belt in decision from someone another top HW (Fedor) beat in 30 seconds. Then the old timer got beat by a WWE wrestler who weighed 40lbs+ more.


Come on man. You know better than to do MMA math.

So are you also discrediting the WW title since Matt Serra beat GSP?


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Blitzz said:


> Come on man. You know better than to do MMA math.
> 
> So are you also discrediting the WW title since Matt Serra beat GSP?


Definitely true, but he was talking about lineage. Let's not fool ourselves on the "purity" of the UFC's belt right now.

I'm still sad about the loss to Matt Serra.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

UFC Title linegage

Mark Coleman defeated Dan Severn to win the first official UFC Heavyweight title.

Maurice Smith defeated Mark Coleman and defended against David Abbot.

Randy Couture defeated Maurice Smith.

Couture was then stripped of the title because of a contract dispute.

Bas Rutten defeated Kevin Randleman to win the vacant title and then retires.

Kevin Randleman defeats Pete Williams to win the vacant title and defends against Pedro Rizzo

Randy Couture defeated Kevin Randleman and defended twice against Pedro Rizzo

Josh Barnett defeated Randy Couture and is then stripped of the title.

Ricco Rodriguez defeated Randy Couture to win the vacant belt.

Tim Sylvia defeated Ricco Rodriguez and defended against Gan McGee then is stripped of the belt.

Frank Mir defeated Tim Sylvia for the vacant belt and is unable to defend due to injuries

Andrei Arlovski defeated Tim Sylvia for vacant belt and defended against Justin Eilers, and Paul Buentello

Tim Sylvia defeated Andrei Arlovski and then defended against Andrei Arlovski and Jeff Monson

Randy Couture defeated Tim Sylvia and defended against Gabriel Gonzaga

Randy attempted to quit the UFC and began a legal battle, forcing the creation of an interim title.

Antonio Nogueira defeated Tim Sylvia for the interim title.

Brock Lesnar defeated Randy Couture.

Frank Mir defeated Antonio Nogueira for the interim title.

Brock Lesnar defeated Frank Mir becoming the Unified Champion




Wamma Title Lineage

Fedor defeats Tim Sylvia to become first ever champ, neither fighter earns title fight. Fedor defends against Andrei Arlovski



quit scrolling there is nothing else down here.... thats it...


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

Only the biggest Fedor cock gobblers would defend him at this point. I don't think Fedor himself would duck anyone but his management is sure going out of their way to protect him. They are clearly scared of having their cash cow get beat by UFC fighters that they'd rather have him fight cans in a second or third rate org. 

Quite frankly, as good as Fedor is I think he might have problems with some of the fighters in the UFC based on their size. Especially if the rumors of Fedor no longer training as hard as he once did are true. I know Fedor has beaten big guys before but not really any with the skills of some of the UFC guys. 

Good luck Fedor. I can't wait to see Fedor vs. Butterbean so we can see all the Fedor nut huggers make threads about Butterbean being a great MMA fighter and better than anyone in the UFC.


----------



## MyCage.co.uk (Jul 5, 2009)

Let's not be like "Oh shit Lesnar's 4-1" Brocks 4-1 and is champ and succesfully defended his title. Not to mention that Brock just keeps improving, in a few more fights Brock would be able to beat down Fedor with 1 hand. **** Fedor if he doesn't want to come to the UFC why should he even be considered as one of the best heavyweights in the world?


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

khoveraki said:


> Ah no biggy, I wasn't targeting you. I watch 90% UFC too since I get it for free and it's on Spike almost every day here. It's my favorite show since Pride dissolved, but you can sometimes reaaally tell when someone ONLY watches it, and still somehow has an opinion on every other organization.
> 
> I got an infraction for accidentally responding to you instead of that other guy, haha. but looks like you got one too? our bad.





TraMaI said:


> Pos rep as soon as I can lol


Lets have a big old hug fest.. 

Actually reading your posts both of you have made some good points.. it did appear to be a disconnect.. I was trying to figure out what got you too going at each other and I read it how it seemed to appear to you both.. glad you guys worked it out and never really got ugly.. I can easily see though how it seemed liked you two were at odds and even having different opinions neither gut to blatant and direct insults.. (though there were some close calls.. )


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## Soldier16 (Jun 17, 2007)




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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Toxic said:


> UFC Title linegage
> 
> Mark Coleman defeated Dan Severn to win the first official UFC Heavyweight title.
> 
> ...





Toxic said:


> I dont know the UFC HW title is the only one with a substantial lineage at this point.


One post here disproves the other.. how can you claim a substantial linage when the UFC HW title has be vacated more times then a New York City taxi cab???

True some great fighters and fights were had to keep filling the vacant spot but your argumet does not hold up. And then to claim that the WAMMA title never had any qualifying fights? how about Fedor's previous 28 wins???? 

how about Tim Sylvia having been in no less then 7 title fights and one fight for the interim title? (your own stats there) Now maybe Tim may not have been the best choice as he won only 3 of those 8 fights... but look at those he lost two all champions themselves at some point either the UFC or Pride.

Outside of the UFC at that point (since the UFC claimed that want nothing to do with the WAMMA title (whihc for the record I like the concept of... but that is for other posts) who else really who did not have a prior commitment could have stepped up to face Fedor besides AA ( who did fight and lose to him in Fedors first defense of the WAMMA title) who also held the UFC title and was invovled in 3 title fights himself.. all of which lends credibility to the WAMMA title through your own words.. True the WAMMA title has not been around long but the very concept of it is great. But just because it has been around a very short while does not make Fedor any less of a champion and the fact Fedor hold the title to me make it an important title and I would love to see it defended against a current UFC champion (weather Brock or whoever can beat him) It would be like in Baseball he world series... Two of the top fighters going for how is truly the best..


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

The Don said:


> Lets have a big old hug fest..
> 
> Actually reading your posts both of you have made some good points.. it did appear to be a disconnect.. I was trying to figure out what got you too going at each other and I read it how it seemed to appear to you both.. glad you guys worked it out and never really got ugly.. I can easily see though how it seemed liked you two were at odds and even having different opinions neither gut to blatant and direct insults.. (though there were some close calls.. )


 I know, I try to avoid blatant insults when I argue now. I used to do it a lot but it doesn't help to prove any point and it just makes you seem like an ass/troll.


also lolololol at Quarry/Fedor gif. Awesome


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

MyCage.co.uk said:


> Let's not be like "Oh shit Lesnar's 4-1" Brocks 4-1 and is champ and succesfully defended his title. Not to mention that Brock just keeps improving, in a few more fights Brock would be able to beat down Fedor with 1 hand. **** Fedor if he doesn't want to come to the UFC why should he even be considered as one of the best heavyweights in the world?


Why is the UFC the only Org a fighter can prove himself? There are many great fighters in other countries who have never even come to the US. Like the current situation or not... Management and contract disputes do not take away from ones actions in the ring.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

I reckon he's terrified of Kimbo, on the very unlikely chance they should ever meet. See, once Fedor got youtube in Russia that was it, Kimbo haunted his dreams..


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

The Don said:


> Why is the UFC the only Org a fighter can prove himself? There are many great fighters in other countries who have never even come to the US. Like the current situation or not... Management and contract disputes do not take away from ones actions in the ring.


Good post. 

I've always wondered the same, man. Why is the UFC the only place where the "top" fighters are? People tend to look at WHERE fighters fight and the names they fight rather than their technique and how good they actually are at fighting. Monson is the perfect example of this. Monson is a tough, tough dude, he has a great ground game, his striking is so underrated it's not even funny, and the guy is on a 7 fight win streak with guys like Sergei and Ricco.

Monson would give most UFC heavyweights a run for their money, as would Overeem, as would Rogers(Rogers not only has a better record than Cain, but his 1 big win is a bigger win than Cain's big win in Kongo).


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> Good post.
> 
> I've always wondered the same, man. Why is the UFC the only place where the "top" fighters are? People tend to look at WHERE fighters fight and the names they fight rather than their technique and how good they actually are at fighting. Monson is the perfect example of this. Monson is a tough, tough dude, he has a great ground game, his striking is so underrated it's not even funny, and the guy is on a 7 fight win streak with guys like Sergei and Ricco.
> 
> Monson would give most UFC heavyweights a run for their money, as would Overeem, as would Rogers(Rogers not only has a better record than Cain, but his 1 big win is a bigger win than Cain's big win in Kongo).


I agree to a point, but a lot of fighters move around promotions throughout their careers. At the moment, in most divisions anyway, UFC is the most stacked with best fighters. Fedor can still fight great fighters without ever stepping into the UFC, but he can never truly say he beat them all either, he can never say he took on every number one contender he should have faced. Who knows, he may retire after strikeforce, undefeated, but we'll never know, would he have beat Brock?


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Michael Carson said:


> Good post.
> 
> I've always wondered the same, man. Why is the UFC the only place where the "top" fighters are? People tend to look at WHERE fighters fight and the names they fight rather than their technique and how good they actually are at fighting. Monson is the perfect example of this. Monson is a tough, tough dude, he has a great ground game, his striking is so underrated it's not even funny, and the guy is on a 7 fight win streak with guys like Sergei and Ricco.
> 
> Monson would give most UFC heavyweights a run for their money, as would Overeem, as would Rogers(Rogers not only has a better record than Cain, but his 1 big win is a bigger win than Cain's big win in Kongo).


Thank you.. now mind you I am in no way knocking the UFC I am a huge fan.. and at some levels they have some of the deepest rosters. There are fighters who for whatever reason do not want to sign with the UFC (yes it is true, not everyone wants into the UFC) For not wanting to move to another country or for whatever their reasons. Others may not want to sign the contracts offered. Plus NOT EVERY fighter can fight for the UFC unless they are going to hold a show every weekend.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

The Don said:


> Thank you.. now mind you I am in no way knocking the UFC I am a huge fan.. and at some levels they have some of the deepest rosters. There are fighters who for whatever reason do not want to sign with the UFC (yes it is true, not everyone wants into the UFC) For not wanting to move to another country or for whatever their reasons. Others may not want to sign the contracts offered. Plus NOT EVERY fighter can fight for the UFC unless they are going to hold a show every weekend.


I'm a fan of the UFC as well, but I'm a much bigger MMA fan than I am a UFC fan, and as an MMA fan, there is a lot of talent outside of the UFC that Fedor can fight, good, top fighters, yet because they don't have UFC slapped across their face, they are somehow not top competition in most eyes. 

Also, I agree that the UFC does have the best overal roster in MMA right now, but at heavyweight, there are still solid guys for Fedor to fight that are not in the UFC.



Nefilim777 said:


> I agree to a point, but a lot of fighters move around promotions throughout their careers. At the moment, in most divisions anyway, UFC is the most stacked with best fighters. Fedor can still fight great fighters without ever stepping into the UFC, but he can never truly say he beat them all either, he can never say he took on every number one contender he should have faced. Who knows, he may retire after strikeforce, undefeated, but we'll never know, would he have beat Brock?


He has beaten the best heavyweights in MMA for the last 9+ years, of course he can say he beat them all. Why can't Fedor say he's beaten all the top guys? Because he hasn't fought Brock Lesnar, a guy with a 4-1 record who has been fighting in MMA for like 2 years or something?

Not only has Fedor beaten the best guys for the last 9+ years, if he signs with Strikeforce, he still has Overeem(top 10), Rogers(better record than Cain, as well as being undefeated), Monson, who is a tough guy with a solid win streak and is a really good fighter.

Overeem could beat most UFC heavyweights, if not all. Monson would do really well in the UFC HW division, Rogers would do just as well in the UFC as Cain has. hell, even Carwin's record isn't that much better than Roger's, and people are saying he has the best shot to beat Brock in the UFC. 

I talk about "records" with Rogers as apparently, from what I have heard from everyone talking about how the UFC has the best fighters, "records" are the only things that matter. As such, Rogers has a better record than Cain, as well as a very close record to Carwin.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Michael Carson said:


> I'm a fan of the UFC as well, but I'm a much bigger MMA fan than I am a UFC fan, and as an MMA fan, there is a lot of talent outside of the UFC that Fedor can fight, good, top fighters, yet because they don't have UFC slapped across their face, they are somehow not top competition in most eyes.
> 
> Also, I agree that the UFC does have the best overal roster in MMA right now, but at heavyweight, there are still solid guys for Fedor to fight that are not in the UFC.
> 
> ...



those are 3 fights I would love to see.. after those that should seal up Fedor's m-1 contract and with the better US exposure make it easy for him to sign with the UFC though I still think it is his manager who will be the road block regardless


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Yeah, those are a solid 3 fights for him, that will finish out his contract. From there, we will see what happens.


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## Evil Ira (Feb 9, 2009)

Is everyone forgetting about Antonio Silva? In my opinion, Fedor could show to all the Fedor haters out there who say he isn't the number one Heavyweight anymore that he's still got it (like he's done time and time again with tough fighters like Mark Hunt, and Andrei Arlovski).

Think about it; Antonio is 265 lbs (Brock's weight) and 6 ft 5 (two inches taller than Brock). He only has one loss (even though it was from Eric Pele), and was the only ever EliteXC Heavyeight Champion. He has wins over Wesley ''Cabbage'' Correira, and Ricco Rodriguez. 

Obviously, in my opinion, Fedor would defeat Antonio Silva within the first round, but it could prove an interesting test. Like a couple of people have already said, more experienced guys like Jeff Monson, and Alistair Overeem would be good matchups for ''The Last Emperor'', and slightly more inexperienced guys such as Brett Rogers could also prove to be interesting. Oh well, we'll just have to wait and see, and hope Fedor's shitty management doesn't screw it up for him.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Evil Ira said:


> Is everyone forgetting about Antonio Silva? In my opinion, Fedor could show to all the Fedor haters out there who say he isn't the number one Heavyweight anymore that he's still got it (like he's done time and time again with tough fighters like Mark Hunt, and Andrei Arlovski).
> 
> Think about it; Antonio is 265 lbs (Brock's weight) and 6 ft 5 (two inches taller than Brock). He only has one loss (even though it was from Eric Pele), and was the only ever EliteXC Heavyeight Champion. He has wins over Wesley ''Cabbage'' Correira, and Ricco Rodriguez.
> 
> Obviously, in my opinion, Fedor would defeat Antonio Silva within the first round, but it could prove an interesting test. Like a couple of people have already said, more experienced guys like Jeff Monson, and Alistair Overeem would be good matchups for ''The Last Emperor'', and slightly more inexperienced guys such as Brett Rogers could also prove to be interesting. Oh well, we'll just have to wait and see, and hope Fedor's shitty management doesn't screw it up for him.


yea forgot about him,... There are many good Hw's out there.. in a few years maybe we'll be talking about me as well.. :-D


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Exactly, there are still tough guys out there for Fedor, guys who are more proven and tested than many UFC heavyweights. 

Also, I forgot about Antonio, good call.


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## abercheese70 (Aug 2, 2009)

I agree, the UFC heavyweights are highly overrated. Im not saying that these fighters are weak by any means but Dana White could make people think that Tank Abbott is the best out there if he really wants to sell something. (If that makes any sense) 

Its clear that most heavy weights in the UFC have a visable weakness... 
*Lesner*= Randy actually held him up against the cage and threw in a few shots that actually looked like they did something. Mir had that good knee that lesner later said made him see little birds. Great wrestler, I just dont know about his chin yet. *Kongo*= Good K-1 striker but yea..Wrestling is a big part in MMA and Herring and Cain taught him that. 
*Carwin*= Only one test so far in my opinion, gabriel, everyone knows that gabe was winning that round and could of finished it quickly. Didnt happen and now Carwin seems like he is GOD.. 
*Cain*= he owned Kongo but WOW, he got dropped 3X and against a good all around fighter 3X is 3 too many..
*Mir*= Lesner beat him too easily to make a strong point for him. Love watching him but I need to put facts out here. Lesner really put it on him. 
*Randy&NOG*= Fan favorites, legends of the sport, but it may be a little too late for them..... 

I am not hating on the UFC for anything, i still watch everyfight and listen to any interview. But people tend to listen to what Dana says a bit to much. Dana has done more than anyone else has done for the UFC and I respect him for that. He just needs to calm down with his so called best heavyweights in the world campaign


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## roboyobo (May 28, 2007)

Fedor's not ducking anyone but the real question is who is going to be competition for him in other leagues. This is the dumbest question ever. We all know Fedor is not ducking anyone, but damn he sure isnt challenging himself.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

The Don said:


> One post here disproves the other.. how can you claim a substantial linage when the UFC HW title has be vacated more times then a New York City taxi cab???
> 
> True some great fighters and fights were had to keep filling the vacant spot but your argumet does not hold up. And then to claim that the WAMMA title never had any qualifying fights? how about Fedor's previous 28 wins????
> 
> ...



Does the fact that Wamma has been around alot less time make Fedor less of a champ? No but it makes what he is the champion of alot less prestigous, made up belts never meant as much, hell its like a less prestigous interim title.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

In theory, WAMMA is great.

In reality, it's a joke. 

Fedor is the only WAMMA champion with any legitimacy, and he didn't earn that legitimacy fighting for, or defending, the WAMMA title. It's a joke belt propped up by the also-rans who hope to compete with UFC. 

If Affliction had been the top dog, do you think they would have done anything to promote WAMMA? Think again.

I don't think Fedor's ducking anyone. There's more going on here than we know. But let's not pretend the UFC heavyweights are bums because Fedor beat a couple of former champions. Those guys were hardly tested against most of the newer UFC talent, anyway, so their fortunes against him aren't the best indicator of how well Fedor would do in UFC.


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## thunderstruck (Aug 3, 2009)

...................me ......................................:bye02:


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Toxic said:


> Does the fact that Wamma has been around alot less time make Fedor less of a champ? No but it makes what he is the champion of alot less prestigous, made up belts never meant as much, hell its like a less prestigous interim title.


Hmm at one point in time the UFC title was made up as well.. Oh other made up titles... President of the United states, Super bowl champion, World Series champ.. Yup made up titles as well.. 

now I know what you mean.. being as new as it is it does not carry much weight, but since several orgs do recognize itit gains some credibility.. Yet only one recognizes the UFC title.. thats.. the UFC.. 



vandalian said:


> In theory, WAMMA is great.
> 
> In reality, it's a joke.
> 
> ...


Strikeforce is signed on with WAMMA along with a few other orgs. 

And of course the other WAMMA champ Shinya Aoki is not deserving of a title.

Yes it is a new title and if more groups sign on it would be the first combat sport to actualy have a title that is not attached directly to a promotion. As for calling others also rans makes you sound like a UFC nuthugger if I have the expression correct... now to be fair I don't know you and you are more then likely just making a point.. but I just happen to disagree with it as your facts are lacking.. I could make up a title tomorrow and if Fedor fought for it his past record clearly indicates he is deserving of the first title shot ... There has to be a first champ somewhere..


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

WAMMA is a complete joke and nobody cares about it. Just go look at there website. They are still promoting the Afflicition 3 card. Their current fighter profile is Josh Barnett. Might be time to make some changes guys. Really, not the kind of thing that you would expect from an organization that wants to be taken seriously. The thing is they really don't care. Shinya Aoki the undisputed LW champ huh? That's almost laughable. Fedors belt was created out of thin air most likely so he could have 5 round fights in the U.S. Most casual MMA fans wouldn't even know what the hell WAMMA is.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

DropKick said:


> WAMMA is a complete joke and nobody cares about it. Just go look at there website. They are still promoting the Afflicition 3 card. Their current fighter profile is Josh Barnett. Might be time to make some changes guys. Really, not the kind of thing that you would expect from an organization that wants to be taken seriously. The thing is they really don't care. Shinya Aoki the undisputed LW champ huh? That's almost laughable. Fedors belt was created out of thin air most likely so he could have 5 round fights in the U.S. Most casual MMA fans wouldn't even know what the hell WAMMA is.


Again though.. there was a point the UFC was not taken seriously as well.. Now will WAMMA sink or swim I have no clue.. They got low overheard.. and you are right they are not doing all that needs to be done in appearances to be taking seriously.. but they have some decent orgs signed on.. but it is still young so only time will tell...


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

The Don said:


> Again though.. there was a point the UFC was not taken seriously as well.. Now will WAMMA sink or swim I have no clue.. They got low overheard.. and you are right they are not doing all that needs to be done in appearances to be taking seriously.. but they have some decent orgs signed on.. but it is still young so only time will tell...


True. My only point of contention with WAMMA is that it's hard to take it seriously when the top org with the most top fighters on it's roster doesn't recognize it. I mean nobody would dispute that GSP, A. Silva and Machida aren't the top in their weight classes right now and they don't have WAMMA belts.

Edit: in my mind Fedor is still the top HW so that title is legit I guess.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

DropKick said:


> True. My only point of contention with WAMMA is that it's hard to take it seriously when the top org with the most top fighters on it's roster doesn't recognize it. I mean nobody would dispute that GSP, A. Silva and Machida aren't the top in their weight classes right now and they don't have WAMMA belts.
> 
> Edit: in my mind Fedor is still the top HW so that title is legit I guess.


Well WAMMA wanted to offer the UFC the chance at some of the WAMMA titles.. the UFC said no.. Honestly the UFC had no reason really to say no as WAMMA is not promoting any one org or their own.. they are just trying to set up a system where regardless of where a fighter fights there is a clear cut top dog.. If anything as fans we should be supporting them so the sport does not turn into the fiasco boxing is in with there being about 50 different HW titles cause as it is now there are several mid to large sized MMA orgs. and tons of smaller ones at the moment there are 2 or 3 clear top MMA orgs.. in time that will change.. WAMMA if the concept is followed through would allow there to be a clear cut #1. Which would prevent it from turning into what boxing is.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

The Don said:


> Hmm at one point in time the UFC title was made up as well.. Oh other made up titles... President of the United states, Super bowl champion, World Series champ.. Yup made up titles as well..
> 
> now I know what you mean.. being as new as it is it does not carry much weight, but since several orgs do recognize itit gains some credibility.. Yet only one recognizes the UFC title.. thats.. the UFC..
> 
> ...



See IMO if Wamma had had some formal rankings a year in advance or held a tournament it would be credible but instead it was made up out of the blue and they just decide these two guys are gonna fight for a Wamma belt, the bouts havent even been booked to be for a title, Wamma just creates one and has them fight for it.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Toxic said:


> See IMO if Wamma had had some formal rankings a year in advance or held a tournament it would be credible but instead it was made up out of the blue and they just decide these two guys are gonna fight for a Wamma belt, the bouts havent even been booked to be for a title, Wamma just creates one and has them fight for it.


yea I can see your point.. the hard part with that is the fact not all promotions will co-promote and this would require several orgs to work together.. yea I agree that would be an ideal situation for this.. but the logistics of working it out would have been hard... I still feel as fans the WAMMA title (though I wish it had a better name) could be the one thing that sets MMA apart from boxing.. the one thing boxing will never be able to claim at any point in time is who is the top champ regrdless of where they fight MMA is young enough where they can get this or a system like it in place long before were stuck in the same situation boxing is in,.


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

TraMaI said:


> Cain, Carwin, Mir and Lesnar. Not to mention he will never fight Randy now. Also, he didn't duck "legendary" fighters, he just ducked an organization with much more talent than Strike force. I mean who do they have over there he can fight? Werdum? Brett Rogers? Please. The only fighter I see even possibly giving him problems is Overeem and I still think Fedor would wreck him. Point is that he KNOWS the best fighters in the world are in the Major Leagues (UFC) not in the minors (SF). And it will always be that way. New heavy weight prospects that are really good are going ot be picked up and be fighting in the UFC. Strike force is nothing more than the Home for Lost MMA Fighters. Seriously, their HW divisions #1 contender is someone who was CUT from the UFC. Add to the fact that the UFC gave him a massively more lucrative contract and the only reason he wont sign is because they won't co-promote? Sorry dude, but my ass.


ufc hw division is weak. he beat nog, but i do wanna see him fight randy for shits and giggles.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

The Don said:


> Strikeforce is signed on with WAMMA along with a few other orgs.
> 
> And of course the other WAMMA champ Shinya Aoki is not deserving of a title.
> 
> Yes it is a new title and if more groups sign on it would be the first combat sport to actualy have a title that is not attached directly to a promotion. As for calling others also rans makes you sound like a UFC nuthugger if I have the expression correct... now to be fair I don't know you and you are more then likely just making a point.. but I just happen to disagree with it as your facts are lacking.. I could make up a title tomorrow and if Fedor fought for it his past record clearly indicates he is deserving of the first title shot ... There has to be a first champ somewhere..


Aoki's a great fighter, but he was beaten only four months ago. But it wasn't a WAMMA title fight, right, so who cares, right? That's the problem with multiple sanctioning bodies. Titles are defended at whim.

I'm not hugging anyone's nuts certainly not UFC's. But UFC is king of mixed martial arts, no getting around that. And as long as it's so, WAMMA means nothing.

To be clear, that's not a reflection of Fedor's record, or Aoki's, either.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

WAMMA is one step closer to MMA taking boxing's route.


And that is a terrible, terrible idea.


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## DahStoryTella (Jul 11, 2009)

could be ducking

could be him maybe not liking dana white

could be him knowing the fact he doesnt need the UFC and they dont need him

either way, aint nothin changed but the weather*...word to CL Smooth*


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

vandalian said:


> *Aoki's a great fighter, but he was beaten only four months ago.* But it wasn't a WAMMA title fight, right, so who cares, right? That's the problem with multiple sanctioning bodies. Titles are defended at whim.
> 
> I'm not hugging anyone's nuts certainly not UFC's. But UFC is king of mixed martial arts, no getting around that. And as long as it's so, WAMMA means nothing.
> 
> To be clear, that's not a reflection of Fedor's record, or Aoki's, either.


I agree with what you said except for the bolded part. He did lose to Sakurai for months or so ago, but it was at WW so it would have no bearing on a LW Wamma title. Besides that, I agree with everything and the argument you were making.


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## thunderstruck (Aug 3, 2009)

really fedors in the perfect situation when you think about it all . if he never comes to the ufc , fights a few more has beens or never was and retires there can always be an arguement that he was the best .holds out for the dreaded "cross promotion " holy grail of a deal breaker , even if he loses to lesnar and /or others , he makes a monstrous amount of money for himself , the mob-1 gets amazing amount of exposure to the average casual fan , and he retires rich and m-1 could possibly be set up very nicely then he can sit back and rack in the big dollars and not even fight . he really is sitting pretty no matter what , and it pretty much sickens me that such a great talent has to be protected or shielded from the best possible fights for him ...almost make you wonder if its his management that think fedor would get slaughtered by brock or others and exposed as being overated and goes down in history as another overhyped fighter that was given easy roads to greatness before being exposed , so they rather "take there ball and go home " so to speak and say hes the best and never prove otherwise .


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Ok... Lesnar, Cain, Carwin, Mir, Couture, Dos Santos. Heck, even Kongo and Gonzaga.

I fail to see how the almighty Overeem, who was nothing but a mid-level contender and has just assembled a streak against severely one-dimensional standup fighters like Hunt and Buentello, and washed up guys Goodridge and CroCop, is better competition than any of these guys. Any one of the UFC guys would wrestle him to the ground and pound him senseless in Rd 1, and Fedor would take less than a minute. Also, in pure standup, Kongo is better. Not to mention Overeem's dramatic physique change smacks of HGH or other extra help.

Who else is there outside the UFC? Arlovski and Sylvia, Fedor has already destroyed, and Barnett tested positive. All that leaves is Brett Rogers, and as much as he intrigues me, he needs to prove himself against at least one more top fighter before he can be ranked as high as the UFC HWs. Werdum? Decent fighter, but no better that Nog in his prime and would get destroyed. No one outside the UFC has the tools to even trouble Fedor, whereas guys like Lesnar and Carwin could be very significant challenges indeed.

So yes, I love Fedor, but this M1 mafia bullshit is ruining his career and wasting his talents.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Davisty69 said:


> I agree with what you said except for the bolded part. He did lose to Sakurai for months or so ago, but it was at WW so it would have no bearing on a LW Wamma title. Besides that, I agree with everything and the argument you were making.


Damn, that _was_ at welterweight, wasn't it? Is my face red...but thanks just the same.



TraMaI said:


> WAMMA is one step closer to MMA taking boxing's route.
> 
> 
> And that is a terrible, terrible idea.


I agree. Unfortunately, however, some fighters seem to want that, or they have been convinced it's the way to go. Seems that some of them associate promotion-jumping with bigger paydays. But it's all so unstable.

UFC seems to be taking the sport in more of a league direction, like a combat sports version of the NFL. All the best fighters in one organization. They haven't achieved that yet, but it's hard to find fault with their business model.


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## KryptoNITE^^ (Jul 27, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> Writing off Overeem and Frank Mir in the same breath. Where to do you get that Mir gasses after getting hit a few times? Have you ever seen him fight?
> 
> And I don't know a single knowledgeable fan that would say Overeem couldn't beat Lesnar.
> 
> ...


I love people like you. You think you got it all figured out don't you? That I'm a UFC nutswinger/Ultimate Fighting fan just because I wrote that Mir stops fighting when the going gets tough... :confused03: :sarcastic12:  I never said gassed btw. 

You don't know me so don't try to post and say that I've never seen any of the above fighters fight since the thing that got me watching MMA in the first place was PRIDE FC (in 2006).

How many times has Overeem been KO'd btw? How many times has Mir been stunned or TKO'd? Whenever they face anyone who isn't willing to back down they get overwhelmed and lose (Shogun x2, Liddell, Lesnar, Vera, Lil Nog x2, Pe De Pano, Hoffman, etc). 

I'll be honest with you. I think Lesnar would smash Overeem if he takes him down and even has a chance standing Brock connects with one of his donkey kong punches. Of course anything can happen in a fight but Rogerio Nogueira took him out with punches and Shogun not too long ago took Overeem down and kept him there. You don't think someone as big and strong like Brock couldn't do the same?


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

How did Overeem suddenly become the overrated fighter of the month? Dude has never been more than a b level fighter. Is it because Fedor has nobody he can fight now so people have to try and build up Overeem to make it look like the UFC HW division is weak? I don't get it. Overeem would get smashed by a lot of UFC HW's.


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## KryptoNITE^^ (Jul 27, 2009)

DropKick said:


> How did Overeem suddenly become the overrated fighter of the month? Dude has never been more than a b level fighter. Is it because Fedor has nobody he can fight now so people have to try and build up Overeem to make it look like the UFC HW division is weak? I don't get it. Overeem would get smashed by a lot of UFC HW's.


I think Brett Rogers will end Alistair Overeem's hype the second they step into the ring. 

Rogers is the real deal. Trust me guys.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

That he may be. But he's far from proven as an elite heavyweight. 

Before Arlovski, his opponents had a combined record of 52-62-0.


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## DrunkenFist (Aug 19, 2007)

fedor has beat the best there was, 5 years ago!!! come on people if he still wants to be considered "the best" he has to BEAT the best, and cans like sylvia and arlovski (he lost it) are not..With that said strikeforce will be good for him, but UFC would have been much better


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## KryptoNITE^^ (Jul 27, 2009)

vandalian said:


> That he may be. But he's far from proven as an elite heavyweight.
> 
> Before Arlovski, his opponents had a combined record of 52-62-0.


He will be an elite after he beats Overeem. (I hope lol)


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## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

I know some are suggesting Fedor is "ducking" Lesnar or other fighters in the UFC.

Personally I don't think so. Fedor and/or his management won't budge on co-promoting and since that isn't going to happen they moved on. It was a business decision. I don't think who Fedor would have to fight ever came into the picture.

I think most people are just disappointed Fedor isn't seeking out the toughest competition. 

The point isn't that someone in the UFC might beat Fedor. 

It's quite possible Fedor would beat every HW in the UFC. It's possible he'd beat every HW in any promotion. 

The point is that Fedor would face the toughest competition in the UFC. Every fight would be tough.

Rogers, Overeem, and hopefully Barnett after suspension simply doesn't equate to Lesnar, Mir, Couture, Nog, Carwin, Velasquez, Dos Santos, Gonzaga, Cro Cop.

Not to mention the no-name fighters who simply haven't been discovered yet. The UFC is far more likely to produce or sign a top young prospect than any other promotion.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

As soon as Rogers fights a real ground specialist like cain, gonzaga,carwin,lesner and Mir he would be smashed, all its gonna take is for someone to get him on his back, which all the guys I mentioned can do, he will be dominated like Houston Alexander was I guarantee it. And Overeem has a pretty decent ground game too which goes well with his excellent striking so I wouldnt count him out either.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Overeem's kinda overrated now, but he's way ahead of Rogers as a mixed martial artist. 
He's going to knee Rogers in the face until he's uglier than, well, Brett Rogers.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

TraMaI said:


> WAMMA is one step closer to MMA taking boxing's route.
> 
> 
> And that is a terrible, terrible idea.


how so.. boxing right now has dozens if not dozens of dozens of sanctioning orgs. All claiming their champ is the one true champ... Right now in MMA there are maybe just a dozen or so orgs each claiming their champs are the best. The UFC is just one (though I will say they do have a better argument in most weight classes then others ). WAMMA if it were adopted by the UFC and other ORGs would be a way to show who the true number 1 guy is.. sadly this will never work as it requires massive co promotion to pull of properly.. This though if done would set MMA clearly apart in terms of knowing who the true #1 guy really is.


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

KryptoNITE^^ said:


> He will be an elite after he beats Overeem. (I hope lol)


I don't know. I don't think beating Overeem makes you an elite level fighter. Here is a list of UFC HW's (not to mention a handful of 205lb fighters) that that I think would beat him:

Brock Lesnar
Randy Couture
Minotouro Nogueira
Frank Mir
Shane Carwin
Cain Velasquez
Junior dos Santos
Cheick Kongo
Gabriel Gonzaga
Antoni Hardonk

Also, doesn't anyone find it odd that a guy that spent a fair amount of his career fighting at 205 now weighs in around 250lbs when he fights? He's like the Barry Bonds of MMA.


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## vaj3000 (Dec 28, 2008)

have just seen carvin v gonzaga....geeez WTF is all the hype about? he looked mediocre even though he won. He took more hits than a heroin addict. He doesnt look good moving forward at all


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

DropKick said:


> I don't know. I don't think beating Overeem makes you an elite level fighter. Here is a list of UFC HW's (not to mention a handful of 205lb fighters) that that I think would beat him:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, doesn't anyone find it odd that a guy that spent a fair amount of his career fighting at 205 now weighs in around 250lbs when he fights? He's like the Barry Bonds of MMA.


 
Brock Lesnar - I agree Brock will take him down and over power him.

Randy Couture - Randy still has KO power and still has excellent wrestling.. another strong possibility

Minotouro Nogueira - He is Nog. If he gets this to the ground he owns it. Stand up might be some trouble I see a possible TKO or long decision

Frank Mir - Mir I think will take overeem pretty easy.. good striking great Jits. 

Shane Carwin - 
Cain Velasquez- Cain and shane I thounk could get him to the ground and get a TKO stoppage 

Junior dos Santos - no opinion yet have not seen enough of his fights personally

Cheick Kongo - should be a good stand up battle

Gabriel Gonzaga - another good stand up battle

Antoni Hardonk - not sure here..


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## turbohall (Aug 6, 2009)

I for one think Fedor is good, however would be just average in the UFC. The UFC has many great HW fighters that would give him a run for his money. Starting with Brock, he has gotten better ever fight and would control the fight, I mean look what he did to Mir, held his arm and just controlled him. I would pay large amount of money to watch that fight. Mir would be a good ground game with him. I think Fedor would take him, but Mir has a good all around game, another fight I would watch. Don't forget Randy, love to watch that one, maybe Randy would get a good punch buthe couldn't submit. It would end in KO or draw. There is many more. But my fav is Brock. I also think more wrestlers will follow, you have one making the jump Bobby Lashely who is undefeated. Oh yea how is Fedor going to fight Rogers when he is on the upcoming TUF10. Hope Rogers fights Kimbo and knocks his block off.:thumb02:


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## vaj3000 (Dec 28, 2008)

rogers is not on TUF 10 assuming your talking about brett rogers


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

The Don said:


> Brock Lesnar - I agree Brock will take him down and over power him.
> 
> Randy Couture - *Randy still has KO power* and still has excellent wrestling.. another strong possibility
> 
> ...


I'm not going to comment on this whole post, as the topic of competition between Strikeforce and UFC is starting to get a bit old, I just wanted to ask a question...

When has Randy ever had KO power? He's never knocked anyone out in his entire career. He has some TKO wins after punching them many times on the ground, an example would be his first fight with Liddell, but that's not "KO power", that's just ground and pound.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> I'm not going to comment on this whole post, as the topic of competition between Strikeforce and UFC is starting to get a bit old, I just wanted to ask a question...
> 
> When has Randy ever had KO power? He's never knocked anyone out in his entire career. He has some TKO wins after punching them many times on the ground, an example would be his first fight with Liddell, but that's not "KO power", that's just ground and pound.


Was wondering the same thing, that list is a little misleading. Like Mir can easily outstrike Overeem? I dunno about that...


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

The Don said:


> Brock Lesnar - I agree Brock will take him down and over power him.


Agreed, but Overeem would rock his shit standing



> Randy Couture - Randy still has KO power and still has excellent wrestling.. another strong possibility


I'm not sure. Overeem is a huge HW and quite a specimen so I don't think Randy would keep him down for 15 minutes. 50/50 



> Minotouro Nogueira - He is Nog. If he gets this to the ground he owns it. Stand up might be some trouble I see a possible TKO or long decision


Depends what Nogueira shows up.



> Frank Mir - Mir I think will take overeem pretty easy.. good striking great Jits.


Overeem would kill him standing and I'm not sure he could tap Overeem that easily. 60/40 for Alistair



> Shane Carwin -
> Cain Velasquez- Cain and shane I thounk could get him to the ground and get a TKO stoppage


Pfft no. Overeem would eat Carwin alive on the feet and would eventually catch Cain in his famous guillotine



> Junior dos Santos - no opinion yet have not seen enough of his fights personally


Overeem would kill this kid. His defense is too good to follow the path of Werdum



> Cheick Kongo - should be a good stand up battle


Interesting fight, but Overeem takes this one via UD



> Gabriel Gonzaga - another good stand up battle


Gonzaga is awesome, but he doesn't have the heart to win this one. Once he gets tagged with a bomb it'll be over...



> Antoni Hardonk - not sure here..


Two great strikers. I'm not sure about this one...

Overeem is overrated by alot of people, but he has the potential to be top 5 easily. Hell even top 3. He's very gifted and talented, but his head has always held him back. He's like BJ Penn. He's his own worst enemy.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Really? Overeem would have no problem beating every single HW in UFC? I think you need to look at how he has lost to Nog, and Rua twice. Maybe it is only my opinion but come on! Carwin would beat him. I have extreme faith in him. Nog would beat him again. Brock would have no problem even if he was getting worked standing up to take him to the ground and GnP. Randy was awesome but i just do not think he has it in him anymore. 

I mean really though? I think there is something to argue there.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

And i know Nog and Rua were in a different weight. i am just saying this guy is not all that great.


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

The505Butcher said:


> Really? Overeem would have no problem beating every single HW in UFC?


I never said that?



> I think you need to look at how he has lost to Nog, and Rua twice. Maybe it is only my opinion but come on! Carwin would beat him. I have extreme faith in him. Nog would beat him again.


:laugh: Shows how much you know about MMA bud. It was Lil Nog, Big Nog's twin brother, who beat Overeem. And Overeem is not the LHW whippin' boy he once was. I know this is not MMA related, but did you see how easily he took out Badr Hari, one of the best kickboxers in the world today? He also beat the hell out of Buentello and embarrassed Mark Hunt.



> Brock would have no problem even if he was getting worked standing up to take him to the ground and GnP. Randy was awesome but i just do not think he has it in him anymore.


I even said Brock would beat him and Randy would lose this fight. It'd be close, but he'd get (T)KO'd.



> I mean really though? I think there is something to argue there.


No, not really.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

I can not tell the difference between the Nogs. (i can just saying a joke.)

You made it sound like Overeem would beat everyone. I know he is good but it sounded like you were making him better than i think he is.

I also would not really put Carwin and Cain in the same thing though. i think you would have to use different strategies to beat them.


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

The505Butcher said:


> You made it sound like Overeem would beat everyone. I know he is good but it sounded like you were making him better than i think he is.


Once again, I never said he would beat everyone. I said he's a handful for anybody and while he is overrated by some, he could easily be a top 5 HW if he focused. The guy is so damn talented and I'd love to see him in the UFC HW division where he'd damn near run through the division, except for a couple of folks.



> I also would not really put Carwin and Cain in the same thing though. i think you would have to use different strategies to beat them.


Eh...whatever.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Michael Carson said:


> I'm not going to comment on this whole post, as the topic of competition between Strikeforce and UFC is starting to get a bit old, I just wanted to ask a question...
> 
> When has Randy ever had KO power? He's never knocked anyone out in his entire career. He has some TKO wins after punching them many times on the ground, an example would be his first fight with Liddell, but that's not "KO power", that's just ground and pound.


OK maybe I misstated.. I should have said TKO ability.. he can hit you hard enough to stun you and keep doing so to get the stoppage.. which is what I meant.. thanks for pointing it out though.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

khoveraki said:


> Was wondering the same thing, that list is a little misleading. Like Mir can easily outstrike Overeem? I dunno about that...



I never said out strike him I said Mir has good striking this fight I would see Mir winning on the ground. If he stayed up I think Overeem would eventually catch him solid.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

The Don said:


> OK maybe I misstated.. I should have said TKO ability.. he can hit you hard enough to stun you and keep doing so to get the stoppage.. which is what I meant.. thanks for pointing it out though.


Ok, now it's clear. :thumbsup:

With that said, anytime Randy has ever finished someone via TKO, was when they were already tired from the fight and it wasn't Randy's power that caused any of the TKO's, it was the fact that they were tired and Randy is a good wrestler so he could keep them there on the ground and toss punches at them and the ref would stop it. It's more of Randy wearing his opponents out then getting on top and throwing any sort of punches and the ref stopping it, than it is power in his punches.

Anyways, I know what you mean.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Michael Carson said:


> Ok, now it's clear. :thumbsup:
> 
> With that said, anytime Randy has ever finished someone via TKO, was when they were already tired from the fight and it wasn't Randy's power that caused any of the TKO's, it was the fact that they were tired and Randy is a good wrestler so he could keep them there on the ground and toss punches at them and the ref would stop it. It's more of Randy wearing his opponents out then getting on top and throwing any sort of punches and the ref stopping it, than it is power in his punches.
> 
> Anyways, I know what you mean.


yea sometimes there is a disconnect between my brain and my fingers:thumb02:


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## KryptoNITE^^ (Jul 27, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> And i know Nog and Rua were in a different weight. i am just saying this guy is not all that great.


Agreed.


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