# Sherk/Penn/Steroids



## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

*Sherk - "I don't think BJ can take me down." great read*

http://mmayou.com/news-and-exclusiv...155-sean-sherk-to-bj-penn-get-ready-for-a-war



> Sean Sherk to BJ Penn - Get ready for a war. PDF Print E-mail
> MMAyou.com had the opportunity to speak with former UFC lightweight champion Sean Sherk as he prepares for his upcoming fight with BJ Penn. Check out what Sherk has to say regarding BJ Penn, his plans at 155, his fight with Hermes Franca, and more.
> 
> MMAyou.com: First, how are you doing?
> ...


sherk really gives good interviews...this is probably the best one i've seen lately for sure

pretty honest guy it seems....admitting he was too conservative in the franca fight. that's something alot of fighters wouldn't admit.

war sherk


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

definitely a good interview..i like Sherk except for the steroid fact...I hate that about him. That is why I have never like Sylvia either. 

I think Sherk brings up some good points...but I don't think he is looking at it the right way. BJ doesn't shoot in and take guys down. He leg trips and sweeps on someone else's takedown attempts. So, Sherk was a little off there. Surprising since he probably should have been looking at BJ's past fights and could have seen that he rarely if ever shoots for a takedown.


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## towwffc (Jan 1, 2008)

that was a good interview, and it would be a mistake for Penn to underestimate Sherk. But I don't think that is the case, just on camera Penn is talking a lot of smack and showing confidence to hype the fight, but he probably knows that Sherk is going to be a handfull. I don't really care who wins this I just want to see a good fight. Both men are so good at what they do, that who ever wins will really deserve it. So I will probably be happy reguardless of who gets the victory.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Who cares if Penn can't take Sherk down?

Really. I don't.

I mean, Sherk is in a "pick your poison" position.

If he wants to sprawl and brawl with BJ, I'm sure BJ would be more than happy to trade. Frankly, I think BJ's got a much better chin than Sherk (judging by the punishment that Penn took from St. Pierre that Sherk couldn't really deal with). And I think BJ is a much better striker, just from a technical perspective.

If the fight hits the ground, BJ has the best back game in the division. Maybe not as good as Aoki, that's debatable, but I tend to think it's better as he can take the back and work some more interesting stuff of the back. (I'm not saying that Shinya's groundgame isn't good, that's a grapping match I'd love to see, and I think it could go either way) Either way, it's way better than Sherk's.

Sherk isn't stronger than Hughes (we saw that when they fought), and Hughes barely muscled his way out of those subs on BJ when BJ was out of shape. Now that BJ's conditioned (and if he's in the shape he was against Stevenson, he's not going to have the conditioning problems that people always talk about), I don't see Sherk as presenting a problem.

Even if I look at this without the roids, assuming that that allegation is false, I still see BJ winning this fight.

For the record, JD Penn has a sick submission game and he's (if I'm thinking of the right brother) alot bigger than Sherk. I'd still give that fight to Sherk, but that's just who JD is.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Thanks for saving me a post IronMan, although I've said numerous times that I wouldn't be surprised if BJ took the fight to the ground himself, just to prove a point.

Good interview with Sherk though, I've never disliked the guy, I just don't like how he has performed in the UFC. :dunno:

Should be a great fight, but I'm sticking with Penn to finish by the 3rd.


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## anton (Oct 15, 2006)

im having a hard time questioning sherk's chin since the 4-5 FLUSH flying knees he took from franca that didnt appear to phase him in the least.

he also has almost 3x as many wins as BJ does so i dont see how people see this fight as an easy walk through for BJ.

i got sherk imposing his will through the first 4 rounds and finishing it by tko in the 5th after bj gets frustrated/gassed.


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

I don't think he will either. But BJ won't need to take Sherk down. Sherk will take care of that for him and then he'll get caught in a submission, but realistically I see BJ knocking Sherk down before submitting him



anton said:


> he also has almost 3x as many wins as BJ does so i dont see how people see this fight as an easy walk through for BJ.
> 
> i got sherk imposing his will through the first 4 rounds and finishing it by tko in the 5th after bj gets frustrated/gassed.


Sherks 3x more wins that BJ are over nobodies on small time shows. Sherk has no wins over fighters the caliber of BJ Penn. All the top fighters he fought he's lost to.

It's not quantity, it's quality. Sherk's record is padded.

Franca was close to submitting Sherk in the first round after he took the knee and slipped into the guillotine.

BJ has a more dangerous guard than Hermes and he has better control. BJ has more technical striking and doesn't throw pitchers overhand rights and flying knees. 

Like Ironman said, BJ can keep the fight wherever he wants to. His flexibility will help avoid the TD and if it goes to the ground Sherk isn't going to be passing BJ's guard as easy as he did Franca's.

BJ has also been training Wrestling with Urijah Faber and frankly I find him to be more explosive and well versed on the ground than Sherk.

BJ will be ready for anything Sherk brings to the table


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## Mufofamm (May 9, 2008)

he didn't think GSP or hughes would beat him either. of course he's going to say that. what's he gonna say? "yes, i think BJ will take me down." he has to portray an image of confidence.


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## roboyobo (May 28, 2007)

I see this fight going either way...but i have to give the advantage to BJ...I've been watching a lot of the previous fights...and i have to say...BJ has improved drastically from the BJ in the past...i can see his striking is alot sharper, his ground game was always great but now he has the conditioning...This is going to be a war...but dont get me wrong, Sherk is not going to be a easy opponent, can take punishment, cardio freak, explosive wrestler, decent striker, good sub defense...all recipes for a great fight...I'm going to be cheering for BJ to win, gotta support the HAWAIIAN!!


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## AndyHI (Apr 15, 2008)

IronMan said:


> Who cares if Penn can't take Sherk down?
> 
> Really. I don't.
> 
> ...


exactly. I see no reason why BJ needs to take Sherk down. Frankly, who cares if he does or doesn't. Sherk's gonna be punished on the feet and on the ground. If Sherk takes down BJ, he's gonna get submitted, or reversed and pounded. It looks like a no win situation for Sean Sherk.


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## Javelin (Dec 28, 2007)

southpaw447 said:


> Like Ironman said, BJ can keep the fight wherever he wants to. His flexibility will help avoid the TD and if it goes to the ground Sherk isn't going to be passing BJ's guard as easy as he did Franca's.
> 
> BJ has also been training Wrestling with Urijah Faber and frankly I find him to be more explosive and well versed on the ground than Sherk.
> 
> BJ will be ready for anything Sherk brings to the table


Man I wish they did a UFC All Access with BJ Penn for this PPV, that would've been a legendary episode -_-


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

Of course Bj's going to try and take Sherk down, that's always his strategy in a fight. He wants to rock you, take you down, pass your guard, and take your back. That's happened in like the last 7 Bj Penn victories, and Sherk's going to be no different. You can tell SHerk is afraid of being on his back with Bj on top by the way he says "I'm not uncomfortable," instead of "I'm comfortable."


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## Negative1 (Feb 4, 2007)

That was a pretty good read. I don't see how alot of these fans can boo Sherk over this steriod stuff anymore. He passed his first test and will probably pass his next one. People gave Barnett a second chance and people gave Sylvia and Kerr second chances also, they can do it for Sherk.

This is going to be an interesting fight to say the least. Everyone seems to be picking BJ for the win and are very confident in his abilities. 

I'm not sold on either fighter yet, they both pose problems for one another. Sherk's biggest weapon is going to be his gastank which could very well be the downfall of BJ. BJ's biggest weapon is....well take your pick cause he has alot of them. His experience in BJJ will probably be the downfall of Sherk. 

To me right now this fight looks like a coin toss. Next weekend we will find out on one of the koolest cards we've seen yet.


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## iSHACKABUKU (Sep 11, 2007)

BJ is a ass for always talking crap but thing is, he usually always backs it up so? lol i guess will see


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

I wonder who will try to take the fight to the ground first? Do you guys think they will start off standing and then whoever is losing takes it to the ground? Do you think maybe in a mid combo one of them goes for the shoot?

Sherk was talking about working off his back, but I don't think many of us here think that will happen. I think Penn will let himself get taken down because his rubber guard is so rare I don't know who Sherk could train with to get used to it. Penn is also one of the few fighters who can still do damage from the bottom. I am still calling this one 50/50 because I can really see this fight going either way. If it is finished before the 3rd I see Penn winning. If it is finished after the 3rd or ends in a decision then I see Sherk winning.


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## peAk (Feb 20, 2008)

I would just like to add that the part about BJ needing to hate the person he is fighting is totally bogus.

He never said anything bad about Joe Stevenson.

I think the steroid thing just gets on BJ's nerves. 

I also think BJ just wants to hype the fight up.


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## sk double i (Apr 13, 2007)

aaronyman - I usually like your posts. But seriously, you need to get off of sherk's nutsack. You're all up in there, made a nice little home cuddled up between his balls.


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

anton said:


> im having a hard time questioning sherk's chin since the 4-5 FLUSH flying knees he took from franca that didnt appear to phase him in the least.
> 
> *he also has almost 3x as many wins as BJ does so i dont see how people see this fight as an easy walk through for BJ.*
> 
> i got sherk imposing his will through the first 4 rounds and finishing it by tko in the 5th after bj gets frustrated/gassed.



That is a VERY good point Anton! I can think of another time that he went into a fight with almost 3x as many wins as the fighter across the cage from him. GSP.

When they fought, Sherk was 28-1-1 his only loss coming against Matt Hughes, GSP was 10-1 his only loss was against Matt Hughes as well. 

GSP ran through him like Taco bell runs through me with a bad hang over.

We have a very similar situation here. Sherk's 32-2-1 and BJ's 12-4-1, but there is such a HUGE difference in the level of fighters that these guys have faced. 

Penn has beaten Thomas, Uno, Pulver, Serra, Gomi, Hughes, Rodrigo AND Renzo Gracie, and Stevenson. His only losses came to Machida, GSP, Hughes, and Pulver. (obviously he has also beaten Pulver and Hughes).


Sherk has beaten Karo(twice), Manny Gamburyan, Nick Diaz, Florian, and Franca (with a Pos test for steroids). He's lost to GSP and Hughes and has not made up either of those losses. 

So if you really want to talk about who has more wins, lets talk about the ones that count. Penn has FAR more important wins and this is going to be one more on Penn's list.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

Some of you guys say BJ is fine on his back but avoid saying that Sherk has some of the best top game in all of MMA? :confused03:

Sure, BJ could sweep or submit Sherk from his back, but to argue that its basically going to happen, which is what some of you make it sound like, is kind of weird since Sherk has never been submitted and has great top control.

It could happen, but to outright say it will is a bit ludicrous.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

anton said:


> im having a hard time questioning sherk's chin since the 4-5 FLUSH flying knees he took from franca that didnt appear to phase him in the least.
> 
> he also has almost 3x as many wins as BJ does so i dont see how people see this fight as an easy walk through for BJ.
> 
> i got sherk imposing his will through the first 4 rounds and finishing it by tko in the 5th after bj gets frustrated/gassed.


4-5 flush knees. I saw 1 flush knee and 3-4 flush lower thigh shots to somewhere that wasn't the chin. That is a good cushion for the impact.

3x as many wins. Well that means very little since BJ or anyone in the top 5 in the LW or WW division could beat about 98% of those guys without even training.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

kds13 said:


> Some of you guys say BJ is fine on his back but avoid saying that Sherk has some of the best top game in all of MMA? :confused03:
> 
> Sure, BJ could sweep or submit Sherk from his back, but to argue that its basically going to happen, which is what some of you make it sound like, is kind of weird since Sherk has never been submitted and has great top control.
> 
> It could happen, but to outright say it will is a bit ludicrous.


lol but but but "Sherk's never faced someone like BJ"....

how come bj took 2 rounds to submit jens pulver? Oh wait, he let jens out of that armbar :laugh:

lol at the "pick your poison" remark. even tho i'm a sherk fan, i try to be objective when assessing both fighter's skills, but that is just a ludicrus assessment of this matchup.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Negative1 said:


> *That was a pretty good read. I don't see how alot of these fans can boo Sherk over this steriod stuff anymore. He passed his first test and will probably pass his next one. People gave Barnett a second chance and people gave Sylvia and Kerr second chances also, they can do it for Sherk.*


The difference is those guys admitted their mistkes and moved on. Sherk still hasn't done that. Things like that just don't happen and since his foundation sport is littered with steroids at all levels, is it really that far-fetched to believe that a guy in the shaoe that Sherk is in took steroids. But not everyone has given Sylvia, Kerr, and Barnett a second chance. And even more people believe Sherk didn't take roids.



Aaronyman said:


> lol but but but "Sherk's never faced someone like BJ"....
> 
> how come bj took 2 rounds to submit jens pulver? Oh wait, he let jens out of that armbar :laugh:
> 
> lol at the "pick your poison" remark. *even tho i'm a sherk fan, i try to be objective when assessing both fighter's skills, but that is just a ludicrus assessment of this matchup*.


You do a good job at that too.



kds13 said:


> Some of you guys say BJ is fine on his back but avoid saying that Sherk has some of the best top game in all of MMA? :confused03:
> 
> Sure, BJ could sweep or submit Sherk from his back, but to argue that its basically going to happen, which is what some of you make it sound like, is kind of weird since Sherk has never been submitted and has great top control.
> 
> It could happen, but to outright say it will is a bit ludicrous.


Sherk hasn't faced anyone with BJJ near Bj's level though. I think that is why people thiink it is inevitable. I don't think that it will happen for sure, but it could very easily. BJ is really sneaky about stuff off his back.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

LOL at all the BJ's being given to BJ in this thread. Well I don think BJ's game is better off his back than Sherks top game, sorry I just dont think Jenns or Joe for that matter are on the same level as Sherk/penn or any indication of how well Sherk will do and I think using old fights at another weight class with MMA math is just about as ridicules to boot.

Guess ill give BJ the slight advantage in striking but it is slight and I still say the odds BJ KO's Sherk are next to zip-o-la at one point I didn't care who won this fight I was just stoked to see it go down but after seeing how many faces are permanently affixed to BJ's ass from this forum Ill be pulling for Sherk all the way.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

kds13 said:


> Some of you guys say BJ is fine on his back but avoid saying that Sherk has some of the best top game in all of MMA? :confused03:
> 
> Sure, BJ could sweep or submit Sherk from his back, but to argue that its basically going to happen, which is what some of you make it sound like, is kind of weird since Sherk has never been submitted and has great top control.
> 
> It could happen, but to outright say it will is a bit ludicrous.


Bj's top game > Sherk's top game. Bj's bottom game >>> Sherk's bottom game. That;s how I look at it...


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

slapshot said:


> this is a stupid comment Hermes Franca might not be BJ Penn but his BJJ is top notch.


Yeah it is so great that his best game was standing. He was and has been awful off his back his entire career. He showed absolutley nothing in line with a BJJ black belt. He would be about halfway to a black belt in the Gracie system (probably the most respecte Black Belt in BJJ)


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

wukkadb said:


> Bj's top game > Sherk's top game. Bj's bottom game >>> Sherk's bottom game. That;s how I look at it...


i'd probably say sherk's top game will neutralize bj's bottom game.....however, i would say bj's top game is better than sherk's bottom game....and if sherk gets put on his back...he better GTF up without exposing his back....remember tho, florian and hermes had sherk on his back at one point during the fight, and they weren't really able to do anything and were reversed quickly...hermes by exploding leg press toss lol


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

wukkadb said:


> Bj's top game > Sherk's top game. Bj's bottom game >>> Sherk's bottom game. That;s how I look at it...


I'll agree with that, but you ignored the most likely situation: Sherk's top control vs. BJ on his back. I would say this is a pretty even match-up. Sure, I'll even go with the nuthuggers and say that BJ has the slight edge.

However, what happens when BJ doesn't finish Sherk in 2 or 3 rounds? I think Sherk's top game is totally going to take over. In his latest interview, Sherk admitted that he was too conservative against Franca and is not going to do the same against BJ. I wouldn't be surprised if he finished BJ in the later rounds.

I do think BJ will win, but people on this forum are making this like GSP-Serra I, and we all know what happened in that fight.

Oh, and I just happened to watch BJ vs. Stevenson again and damn! BJ must have been _really_ overwhelmed with emotion because he almost collapsed on Herb Dean.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> Yeah it is so great that his best game was standing. He was and has been awful off his back his entire career. He showed absolutley nothing in line with a BJJ black belt. He would be about halfway to a black belt in the Gracie system (probably the most respecte Black Belt in BJJ)


He sub'd Diaz so there's some game for you. Really sometimes you have to use this thing called perspective the guy is 18-6 with 11 subs so yeah his bjj looks horrible.... He might not be the best fighter in any respect but he dose have a good sub game.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> *i'd probably say sherk's top game will neutralize bj's bottom game*.....however, i would say bj's top game is better than sherk's bottom game....and if sherk gets put on his back...he better GTF up without exposing his back....remember tho, florian and hermes had sherk on his back at one point during the fight, and they weren't really able to do anything and were reversed quickly...hermes by exploding leg press toss lol


I'm assuming you think he will pass BJ's guard but with what ease do you think he will? I think that with the trouble that Sherk will have passing BJ's guard this could lead to standups which (IMO) would show that BJ's bottom game is still better than Sherk's top control. I'm not dismissing Sherk's top control (which I think you know since we have disccused BJ/Sherk quite often) I'm just going off of how few times BJ's guard has been passed.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Rated said:


> Oh, and I just happened to watch BJ vs. Stevenson again and damn! BJ must have been _really_ overwhelmed with emotion because he almost collapsed on Herb Dean.


the whole argument of "bj looked gassed after the fight" is pretty silly....

and a fighter's cardio totally depends on who is pushing them too....sherk pushes a must harder pace than joe did...so we'll see how penn handles it


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

wukkadb said:


> Bj's top game > Sherk's top game. Bj's bottom game >>> Sherk's bottom game. That;s how I look at it...


So you completely avoid the most logical position this fight will be in...:confused03:

Sherk's top game = BJ's bottom game
IMO, it'll be fairly neutral unless BJ can sweep Sherk.

Can someone, for the life of me, please tell me why people think BJ will be fine on his back? For a sweep, I would agree with you, but if you think BJ plans on submitting Sherk from his back you're crazy. He's never submitted anyone from off his back. Every sub he has is a rear-naked or arm-triangle choke. He doesn't get armbar's or triangle's from the bottom, he just doesn't.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

MLS said:


> *I'm assuming you think he will pass BJ's guard but with what ease do you think he will? *I think that with the trouble that Sherk will have passing BJ's guard this could lead to standups which (IMO) would show that BJ's bottom game is still better than Sherk's top control. I'm not dismissing Sherk's top control (which I think you know since we have disccused BJ/Sherk quite often) I'm just going off of how few times BJ's guard has been passed.


hmmm..i dunno about that for the first few rounds...i'd say bj keeps sherk in guard or half guard for 2 rounds if sherk got on top.....sherk, contrary to popular belief, is pretty active on top..and even if it does get stood up...that's a solid 90 seconds or so that sherk was in conrol (which is how UFC judges score bouts like it or hate it).

after bj is a lil tired and sherk knows it, he'll probably get more aggressive w/ the passing attempts, and they'll probably be successful in rounds 3, 4, and 5...which could lead to a TKO


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

kds13 said:


> So you completely avoid the most logical position this fight will be in...:confused03:
> 
> Sherk's top game = BJ's bottom game
> IMO, it'll be fairly neutral unless BJ can sweep Sherk.
> ...


I'll ask you the same thing I asked Aaronyman, if they neutralize each other when Sherk is on top then that means BJ isn't get a sub and Sherk isn't getting past BJ's guard. The fight is most likely going to get stood up and doesn't this speak more towards how good BJ's guard is than to Sherk's top control?


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

kds13 said:


> So you completely avoid the most logical position this fight will be in...:confused03:
> 
> Sherk's top game = BJ's bottom game
> IMO, it'll be fairly neutral unless BJ can sweep Sherk.
> ...


i'm worried about the kneebar  ... i dunno if i could handle another one of those....


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> hmmm..i dunno about that for the first few rounds...i'd say bj keeps sherk in guard or half guard for 2 rounds if sherk got on top.....sherk, contrary to popular belief, is pretty active on top..and even if it does get stood up...that's a solid 90 seconds or so that sherk was in conrol (which is how UFC judges score bouts like it or hate it).
> 
> after bj is a lil tired and sherk knows it, he'll probably get more aggressive w/ the passing attempts, and they'll probably be successful in rounds 3, 4, and 5...which could lead to a TKO


Isn't keeping Sherk in guard or half guard until the fight is stood up still more or less neutralizing Sherk's top control? 

It always goes back to Sherk's conditoning and I am really starting to think this is his only realistic way of winning. Don't get me wrong I know anything can happen but everyone that is leaning towards Sherk winning always uses that argument. To me BJ has more ways of winning and Sherk is just relying (and hoping) that BJ doesn't have a gas tank.


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

kds13 said:


> *Some of you guys say BJ is fine on his back but avoid saying that Sherk has some of the best top game in all of MMA? *:confused03:
> 
> Sure, BJ could sweep or submit Sherk from his back, but to argue that its basically going to happen, which is what some of you make it sound like, is kind of weird since Sherk has never been submitted and has great top control.
> 
> It could happen, but to outright say it will is a bit ludicrous.


Call me a BJ Nuthugger but Sherk's top game isn't that great... or at least it hasn't been tested against a seasoned Veteran like BJ Penn.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

MLS said:


> I'll ask you the same thing I asked Aaronyman, if they neutralize each other when Sherk is on top then that means BJ isn't get a sub and Sherk isn't getting past BJ's guard. The fight is most likely going to get stood up and doesn't this speak more towards how good BJ's guard is than to Sherk's top control?


Sherk may not pass guard and BJ may not get sub's, but strikes will keep the fight from being stood up and Sherk throws a lot of short punches and elbows. If he can stay on top of BJ for a couple rounds and give him some blows, bet your ass that BJ will gas AND CAN BE finished, just like Hughes did with unanswered blows to the noggin'.



southpaw447 said:


> Call me a BJ Nuthugger but Sherk's top game isn't that great... or at least it hasn't been tested against a seasoned Veteran like BJ Penn.


So, what is probably Sherk's best aspect in the fight game "isn't that great"? So a UFC Champion with only 2 losses in his whole career is basically not very good at anything...am I reading you right?


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

MLS said:


> I'll ask you the same thing I asked Aaronyman, if they neutralize each other when Sherk is on top then that means BJ isn't get a sub and Sherk isn't getting past BJ's guard. The fight is most likely going to get stood up and doesn't this speak more towards how good BJ's guard is than to Sherk's top control?


Ill answer that, I think its simple. The most likely outcome will be a decision for Sherk based on control and top position with not much else going on for either fighter. Could something else happen sure but will it? IDK I dont see BJ getting away from Sherks take downs enough to effectively stop him from putting BJ on his back.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

kds13 said:


> Sherk may not pass guard and BJ may not get sub's, but strikes will keep the fight from being stood up and Sherk throws a lot of short punches and elbows. If he can stay on top of BJ for a couple rounds and give him some blows, bet your ass that BJ will gas.


You have to remember though that BJ is very active from the bottom with strikes too so I doubt Sherk can be as active with his strikes from guard, until BJ gases (hope he doesn't).



slapshot said:


> Ill answer that, I think its simple. The most likely outcome will be a decision for Sherk based on control and top position with not much else going on for either fighter. Could something else happen sure but will it? IDK I dont see BJ getting away from Sherks take downs enough to effectively stop him from putting BJ on his back.


How is it that simple when someone of BJ's talent is involved. You are clearly dismissing BJ by saying it's that simple. BJ has some of the best TKD and the only argument I hear from Sherk fans is that he will win when BJ gases. While BJ has more ways of winning, so how is it that simple?


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

It's just AMAZING to me that people are really giving Sherk a good chance to win this fight. There's NOTHING that shows me that his skill is ANYWHERE near what it takes to win this fight. 

All Sherk has going for him is that he's hard to finish. That's it. PERIOD.

BJ is without a doubt better in every aspect of MMA, with the question of cardio. The take downs are the only thing that Sherk might has an edge in besides that, and it doesn't matter, because BJ's TDD is WAY ahead of Sherks TD's. 

You guys can all sit around and say that we are just nut hugging Bj and how he's sooooo out of shape. That fact is, he's proven that he can go into a fight, out of shape and take the best in the world, a weight class above him, to a split decision. When he goes into a fight in shape, he destroys guys. 

Sherk has proven that he can beat many D level fighters and a couple of C-B level fighters. He's also proven that he can't hang with the A level guys.

Talk all you want about Sherk. I'll take Sig bets. Hell, I'll take Perm-Title bets for this fight. If you have so much faith that Sherk is going to win it, hit me up. We'll do a Prem-Title bet. For those of you that don't know what that means, the loser will have to get his title changed to what the winner says and it has to stay, the rest of the time you belong to this forum. 

How's that for faith in a fighter??? 

So come on guys, put up or shut up. :thumbsup:


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

MLS said:


> You have to remember though that *BJ is very active from the bottom with strikes too* so I doubt Sherk can be as active with his strikes from guard, until BJ gases (hope he doesn't).


Which will only open him up to elbows or even allow Sherk to pass his guard. All is going according to plan...


----------



## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

This fight, IMO, is going remain the feet until BJ rocks Sherk. I don't see BJ trying to take Sherk down or getting taken down.

BJ is likely going to finish it with an RNC or some type of strikes from mount.


----------



## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

kds13 said:


> Which will only open him up to elbows or even allow Sherk to pass his guard. All is going according to plan...


Goes both ways, Sherk's strikes allow BJ more opportunities to sweep or catch an arm for a sub.


----------



## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

Chrisl972 said:


> It's just AMAZING to me that people are really giving Sherk a good chance to win this fight. There's NOTHING that shows me that his skill is ANYWHERE near what it takes to win this fight.
> 
> All Sherk has going for him is that he's hard to finish. That's it. PERIOD.
> 
> ...


First off, Sherk is better at wrestling, cardio, and setting the pace of a fight. Striking is fairly even technically, with BJ definitely having more power. To say Sherk isn't better at any aspect of MMA is ludicrous.

Second, I don't have a ton of faith that Sherk will win. Yes, I picked him, but this fight is incredibly close in my opinion. I've said it multiple posts in this thread that BJ could sweep Sherk and that would be, IMO, a fight ending move because BJ on top of Sherk is bad news.

But its just the absolute ludicrousness of posters, which you have now joined the ranks of, that say Sherk has NO chance of winning?

What happened to MMA being unpredictable? Oh, BJ fans happened, thats right. 




Unreal.




MLS said:


> Goes both ways, Sherk's strikes allow BJ more opportunities to sweep or catch an arm for a sub.


Haha, I know. But my personal spin sounds better...


----------



## Zuke (Sep 22, 2006)

Only way Sherk wins is when BJ gasses. There is NO WAY he can or will finish a BJ that is not gassed. If BJ had Sherk conditioning it would be total domination.

BUT he does not have Sherks conditioning. So BJ needs to just have 3 good rounds. Then just avoid anything stupid and its his. However, I think BJ finishes it in the 1st or 2nd via TKO ro SUB, whatever you want.


----------



## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

kds13 said:


> First off, Sherk is better at wrestling, cardio, and setting the pace of a fight. Striking is fairly even technically, with BJ definitely having more power. To say Sherk isn't better at any aspect of MMA is ludicrous.
> 
> Second, I don't have a ton of faith that Sherk will win. Yes, I picked him, but this fight is incredibly close in my opinion. I've said it multiple posts in this thread that BJ could sweep Sherk and that would be, IMO, a fight ending move because BJ on top of Sherk is bad news.
> 
> ...


If Sherk fights like he did with Franca and Florian he will lose. Laying in the gaurd and throwing little pitty patty punches and elbows is not an option when you're fighting BJ Penn.

Diving in for a takedown like he did on Hermes is not something you do when you fight BJ Penn.

Sherk has no intention of standing-up with anybody let alone BJ Penn, I'll bet he wouldn't even trade with Danny Abaddi. Sean Sherk is so predictable we all know what his gameplan is.

BJ knows what his gameplan is. BJ is going to rock Sherk on his feet, get his back and choke him out


----------



## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

kds13 said:


> Haha, I know. But my personal spin sounds better...


Only if you want Sherk to win. :thumb02: 

I am starting to think that Sherk is just hoping BJ doesn't have a gas tank because that's all he and his supporters talk about. Anything can happen but I just feel that Sherk's only realistic way of winning is by BJ not having a gas tank.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

southpaw447 said:


> If Sherk fights like he did with Franca and Florian he will lose. Laying in the gaurd and throwing little pitty patty punches and elbows is not an option when you're fighting BJ Penn.
> 
> Diving in for a takedown like he did on Hermes is not something you do when you fight BJ Penn.
> 
> ...


So are you joining the "Ridiculous Ranks" by saying Sherk has no way of winning the fight? Did 2007 prove NOTHING to you guys?


----------



## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

kds13 said:


> So are you joining the "Ridiculous Ranks" by saying Sherk has no way of winning the fight? Did 2007 prove NOTHING to you guys?


Not at all. Everyone has a chance. I wouldn't be surprised if Sherk won, but his style is so predictable.

If you watched BJ's fights (before he trained like a world class fighter) he was putting whoopings on world class fighters like Hughes and GSP.

You would also know that BJ is the most dangerous in the first 3 rounds, and like I said, this was before he trained seriously. 

I'm tired of hearing the same cliches over and over again of how BJ doesn't have the cardio but we wouldn't know that because BJ hasn't gone the distance in over 5 years.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

MLS said:


> You have to remember though that BJ is very active from the bottom with strikes too so I doubt Sherk can be as active with his strikes from guard, until BJ gases (hope he doesn't).
> 
> 
> 
> How is it that simple when someone of BJ's talent is involved. You are clearly dismissing BJ by saying it's that simple. BJ has some of the best TKD and the only argument I hear from Sherk fans is that he will win when BJ gases. While BJ has more ways of winning, so how is it that simple?


I have to be honist and say BJ has a lot of talent but is still overrated, Sherks top control is sick. I think its all conditional BJ can win and I dont ever remember saying he cant I just dont think he'll be able to put sherk on his back or keep the fight standing and off his back it is that simple (barring a sweep) we will "most likely see" Sherk G&P his way to a decision or stoppage. Anyway looks like we will just have to wait and see because I dont see anyone changing there minds. 
:thumb02:


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

kds13 said:


> So are you joining the "Ridiculous Ranks" by saying Sherk has no way of winning the fight? Did 2007 prove NOTHING to you guys?


How sad is it that you're best claim for Sherk winning this fight is, " Did 2007 prove nothing to you?"

And of course I know that Sherk has a chance of winning. If you look, I never say he doesn't have a chance, I say have a GOOD chance. Big difference. 

And to say that Sherk's striking is any where near BJ's is laughable. Want to know how you can know that? If it were, he'd use it. If ANYONE has striking even close to what BJ has, that's their main weapon. The thing that set's BJ apart is that he actually has BJJ that is just as good as his striking. 

You can't really be serious when you say they are close technically. 

And What makes Sherk's Wrestling better?? TDD is a part of wrestling and I truely believe that Penn's TDD is much better then Sherk's Take Downs. And the Pace of a fight??? Do you mean how fast he can get it to the ground??? It's not like he pushes the pace when he's down there. 

I just don't get it.:dunno:


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

southpaw447 said:


> If Sherk fights like he did with Franca and Florian he will lose. *Laying in the gaurd and throwing little pitty patty punches and elbows is not an option when you're fighting BJ Penn.
> 
> Diving in for a takedown like he did on Hermes is not something you do when you fight BJ Penn.
> 
> ...


*

i suppose we'll have to wait for the fight...but i don't see bj rocking sherk standing at all....i'd say the advantage he has at striking is pretty minimal...especially when you consider bj's assumed restraint of throwing kicks and knee's given the opportunity to be taken down...who knows

and i think you saying sherk is "so predictable" is a little much too....the Diaz fight, he was having alot of trouble taking him down b/c of his lankiness, and he adapted...he incorporated a lot more strikes into his game...assuming sherk will just dive for takedowns relentlessly afraid to strike is a pretty dangerous assumption*


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Chrisl972 said:


> And to say that Sherk's striking is any where near BJ's is laughable. Want to know how you can know that? If it were, he's use it. If ANYONE has stiking even close to what BJ has, that's their main weapon. The thing that set's BJ apart is that he actually has BJJ that is just as good as his striking.


I dont think Ive seen exceptional striking from BJ in quit some time now. I know he has power and is a good striker but as of late nothing has put him over Sherks solid but not exceptional striking, so yeah its almost a wash sorry thats hard for you to take. 


Chrisl972 said:


> You can't really be serious when you say they are close technically.


 at this point in each fighters career give me a reason thats not acceptable? All 4 of BJ's last fights I didnt think his striking looked godly or amazing just good and WTF it should look good too because GSP was the only real striker he faced. 



Chrisl972 said:


> And What makes Sherk's Wrestling better?? TDD is a part of wrestling and I truely believe that Penn's TDD is much better then Sherk's Take Downs. And the Pace of a fight??? Do you mean how fast he can get it to the ground??? It's not like he pushes the pace when he's down there.
> 
> I just don't get it.:dunno:


Sherk has exceptional takedowns, sure enough BJ can stuff a shot but can he outscore Sherk and mount some offense on his feet wile defending against it? I just dont think he can, that puts them on the floor and even though the pace wont blister your eyeballs its consistent and hard, Sherk doesn't fade after 3 rounds he's just as strong and strikes are just as hard, thats enough to take the fight out of a lot of people IMO.


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

slapshot said:


> I dont think Ive seen exceptional striking from BJ in quit some time now. I know he has power and is a good striker but as of late nothing has put him over Sherks solid but not exceptional striking, so yeah its almost a wash sorry thats hard for you to take.
> at this point in each fighters career give me a reason thats not acceptable? All 4 of BJ's last fights I didnt think his striking looked godly or amazing just good and WTF it should look good too because GSP was the only real striker he faced.


 Really??? You don't think he looked good striking against GSP? You don't think he looked good striking against Hughes?? You didn't think dropping Stevenson right out of the gate was impressive??? I'm sure that Sherks fights have shown you just as much. -_-




slapshot said:


> Sherk has exceptional takedowns, sure enough BJ can stuff a shot but can he outscore Sherk and mount some offense on his feel while defending against it? I just dont think he can, that puts them on the floor and even though the pace wont blister your eyeballs its consistent and hard, Sherk doesn't fade after 3 rounds he's just as strong and strikes are just as hard, thats enough to take the fight out of a lot of people IMO.


Well seeing as how BJ is able to balance on one foot better them most can stand on two, I'd say he'll be able to outscore Sherk while he's defending the Take Downs. Plus, when you look at the fact that BJ is just a natural fighter, I believe that he'll figure Sherk out as he's defending them. 

Sherk's no GSP, that's been proven already. So don't expect Sherk to suddenly turn in to him and take over the fight. It's not going to happen.


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

Chrisl972 said:


> Really??? You don't think he looked good striking against GSP? You don't think he looked good striking against Hughes?? You didn't think dropping Stevenson right out of the gate was impressive??? I'm sure that Sherks fights have shown you just as much. *-_-*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You totally stole that from me. -_-


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Chrisl972 said:


> Really??? You don't think he looked good striking against GSP? You don't think he looked good striking against Hughes?? You didn't think dropping Stevenson right out of the gate was impressive??? I'm sure that Sherks fights have shown you just as much. -_-



Umm no I dont think beating a Hughes thats known for shit stand up or dropping Joe who Ive seen rocked before and think is not that great of a fighter, means anything other than he's a good striker with good power and they.... are not.:dunno:
Ill go back and watch the GSP fight because I dont remember anything special there either but for some reason im having a hard time recalling that fight at all IDK why.


Chrisl972 said:


> Well seeing as how BJ is able to balance on one foot better them most can stand on two, I'd say he'll be able to outscore Sherk while he's defending the Take Downs. Plus, when you look at the fact that BJ is just a natural fighter, I believe that he'll figure Sherk out as he's defending them.
> 
> Sherk's no GSP, that's been proven already. So don't expect Sherk to suddenly turn in to him and take over the fight. It's not going to happen.


I dont think Sherks GSP I just dont think BJ penn is SUPERMAN. :thumb02:


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

slapshot said:


> Sherk has exceptional takedowns, sure enough BJ can stuff a shot but can he outscore Sherk and mount some offense on his feet wile defending against it? I just dont think he can, that puts them on the floor and even though the pace wont blister your eyeballs its consistent and hard, Sherk doesn't fade after 3 rounds he's just as strong and strikes are just as hard, thats enough to take the fight out of a lot of people IMO.


Check out BJ's book, there is a thread where you can download it on here, look at the section on his takedown defense. His stuff works great and its unorthodox so most don't know how to deal with it. If you can try some of his stuff out you will get a better appreciaition for his TKD.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

@Chrisl972: You know, I think BJ is going to win, but you - along with many others - make it _seem_ like Sherk has no chance.

And yes, I read your post about him not having a _good_ chance. But from reading your posts - pardon me if I'm trying to be a mind reader - it really does not seem you give Sherk any sort of chance to win. This fight has been shaped up to be like GSP-Serra I.

Hell, it always goes something like this:

Sherk fan: Yeah, this is a even fight. BJ has the earlier rounds while Sherk has the later rounds.

BJ fan: BJ Penn KO in the first min of the first round! Then he's going up to avenge his loss to GSP and then take out Anderson Silva! BJ Penn is #1 P4P!!11!one

FYI, I am neither a BJ or a Sherk fan. However, if I had to pick a fave, I would pick BJ over Sherk because I find him more entertaining to watch.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

MLS said:


> Check out BJ's book, there is a thread where you can download it on here, look at the section on his takedown defense. His stuff works great and its unorthodox so most don't know how to deal with it. If you can try some of his stuff out you will get a better appreciaition for his TKD.


wow dude lol, his TDD is great I think I already stated that. I just dont think he can stop Sherk without being defensive, he can try but he'll end up on his ass.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

That was a great interview. I'm pulling for sherk even more now (always have been) and I honestly think he'll win. I think His and BJs boxing is about even but Sherk will hit him a hell of a lot harder and I know that it will be extremely hard for Penn to take him down. Sherk is a really good dude it seems, extremely honest. He's a hell of a lot more personable than BJ. It's cool that he's making it personal and fueling the fire, but it's really cool that he isn't there trying ot hyp ehimself up and talk shit baout BJ. WAR SHERK


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

Rated said:


> @Chrisl972: You know, I think BJ is going to win, but you - along with many others - make it _seem_ like Sherk has no chance.
> 
> And yes, I read your post about him not having a _good_ chance. But from reading your posts - pardon me if I'm trying to be a mind reader - it really does not seem you give Sherk any sort of chance to win. This fight has been shaped up to be like GSP-Serra I.
> 
> ...


Once again, of course Sherk has a chance, just not a good one. And i'm sure that a lot of my posts seem over the top, but what can I say, I'm passionate about MMA. :dunno:

I'm not one of those guys that's saying that BJ is going to go do all of those things and that the world is his to take if he just trained for it, but there might be some truth to it.  

I focus on the fights that are coming and I look at how they've done against similar styles in the past, and then I gage what I feel the out come will be. 

Does it always work??? If it did, my sig wouldn't look like it does right now.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

MLS said:


> Check out BJ's book, there is a thread where you can download it on here, look at the section on his takedown defense. His stuff works great and its unorthodox so most don't know how to deal with it. If you can try some of his stuff out you will get a better appreciaition for his TKD.


I wouldnt call his TDD unorthadox... I just read most of that book today and there isnt all that much TDD in there that isnt widely used.


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## Mufofamm (May 9, 2008)

TraMaI said:


> I think His and BJs boxing is about even but Sherk will hit him a hell of a lot harder


um... wow. just wow.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Well, he could hit him harder, in the later rounds. When they're fresh, I think Sherk's going to have to weather the storm in order to turn it on when BJ is fatigued. Penn's the type of fighter who rarely has any flaws. His main one is his cardio, and I think Sherk's going to take full advantage of it. 

I can see BJ taking Sherk down early, but I think Sherk's talented enough to neutralize Penn.

Also, Franca has devastating power, and he couldn't KO Sherk. I really doubt BJ will.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

TraMaI said:


> I wouldnt call his TDD unorthadox... I just read most of that book today and there isnt all that much TDD in there that isnt widely used.


BJ has slight variations on a lot of his takedowns that he has made to suit him. I would say that the little things he has changed aren't used widely.


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

Damone said:


> Well, he could hit him harder, in the later rounds. When they're fresh, I think Sherk's going to have to weather the storm in order to turn it on when BJ is fatigued. Penn's the type of fighter who rarely has any flaws. His main one is his cardio, and I think Sherk's going to take full advantage of it.
> 
> I can see BJ taking Sherk down early, but I think Sherk's talented enough to neutralize Penn.
> 
> Also, Franca has devastating power, and he couldn't KO Sherk. I really doubt BJ will.


So are you saying that Franca's on the same level of striking that Penn is???:confused02:


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

Chrisl972 said:


> So are you saying that Franca's on the same level of striking that Penn is???:confused02:


Franca is actually a really good striker.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

SlaveTrade said:


> Franca is actually a really good striker.


Nate Diaz outstruck Franca and Nate doesn't have great striking.


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

SlaveTrade said:


> Franca is actually a really good striker.


Yes, he is. And he's really good at BJJ. But he's not on Penn's level at either. 

I'm not saying that Franca's striking shouldn't be respected, but to say that if Franca couldn't knock Sherk out, BJ can't, is just crazy.


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

I cant wait to hear all the excuses here once BJ loses.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Chrisl972 said:


> So are you saying that Franca's on the same level of striking that Penn is???:confused02:


Not really, but Franca packs a ton of power, maybe more than Penn does, since Franca has put some really good fighters on queer street. Sherk took some sickening knee's that would KO anyone else, and he kept up the pressure. He didn't really miss a beat. 

Franca, as SlaveTrade mentioned, is a good striker. He's not really technical, but he has power and he's relentless. Good strikers like Spencer Fisher, Josh Thomson, Boku and Varner have felt Franca's power. Sherk did, too, but unlike the others, he wasn't taken out of his game.


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

drockh said:


> I cant wait to hear all the excuses here once BJ loses.


There will be no excuses. If sherk wins, we won. Plain and simple. 

Why is it, if you have faith in someone before the fight, you have to make excuses if they lose???



Damone said:


> Not really, but Franca packs a ton of power, maybe more than Penn does, since Franca has put some really good fighters on queer street. Sherk took some sickening knee's that would KO anyone else, and he kept up the pressure. He didn't really miss a beat.
> 
> Franca, as SlaveTrade mentioned, is a good striker. He's not really technical, but he has power and he's relentless. Good strikers like Spencer Fisher, Josh Thomson, Boku and Varner have felt Franca's power. Sherk did, too, but unlike the others, he wasn't taken out of his game.


I don't see Franca having more power in his striking then Penn. Not only does Penn have more power, IMO, but he's much better at throwing punches in bunches. 

Franca has a strong over hand right. BJ has power in almost every type of punch that he throws. 

One knee<a strong three punch combo


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## Mufofamm (May 9, 2008)

defending a takedown when you're in a wrestling sparring match with university wrestlers is alot different than defending a takedown when you're being punched in the face by someone who is trying to kill you. it's completely different, sean. BJ will take you down. the question is: can sean defend the takedowns? the answer: no.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

If you were to pick the attributes necessary to beat BJ, they would look like this:

1. Great Wrestling
2. Submission Defense
3. Competent Striking
4. Incredible Cardio

That is a run-down of exactly what Sherk is. That is why I think he will win. He's incredibly hard to finish and can impose his will on his opponents.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

kds13 said:


> If you were to pick the attributes necessary to beat BJ, they would look like this:
> 
> 1. Great Wrestling
> 2. Submission Defense
> ...


5. Canadian and/or Farm boy

Just Kidding:thumb02:

I can't wait to see this fight. I would love for BJ to pull off some insane move from the ground and I think Sherk's biggest disadvantage in preperation is finding someone as flexible as Penn who uses the rubber guard so effectively. Penn needs to make sure he paces himself because Penn has shown that even if he is in decent shape he can still gas himself by wasting too much energy.

I am one of the middle guys here, I am calling the fight a 50/50. I think the only way to amaze me in this fight is if BJ makes Sherk Gas, wouldn't that be a trip.


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

kds13 said:


> If you were to pick the attributes necessary to beat BJ, they would look like this:
> 
> 1. Great Wrestling
> 2. Submission Defense
> ...


I do agree with all of these except one. 

1. Great Wrestling
2. Submission Defense
*3. Competent Striking*
4. Incredible Cardio

I think it will take a lot more then Competent striking. I really believe that it will take superior striking. 

I know that a lot of you are going to remind me about the Hughes fight. I don't think that penn was any where near where he will be in this fight cardio wise. (I'm not even going to bring up the sperated ribs)


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Damone said:


> Not really, but Franca packs a ton of power, maybe more than Penn does, since Franca has put some really good fighters on queer street. Sherk took some sickening knee's that would KO anyone else, and he kept up the pressure. He didn't really miss a beat.
> 
> Franca, as SlaveTrade mentioned, is a good striker. He's not really technical, but he has power and he's relentless. Good strikers like Spencer Fisher, Josh Thomson, Boku and Varner have felt Franca's power. Sherk did, too, but unlike the others, he wasn't taken out of his game.


You're comparing Penn to Franca? Really.

BJ is a jiu-jitsu world champion (the ground games are not comparable) and an incredibly powerful and technical striker.

Does Franca have alot of power? Yeah, maybe even as much as Penn.

But the difference is that BJ doesn't just drop his head and swing. I'm not putting down Franca's striking, I'm just saying (as you did) that it's not as technical as Penn's, and BJ can definitely pick Sherk apart standing up.

Everyone talks about Sherk's striking, and he's got some striking. But there's no evidence that it's better than Penn's, and their fights with GSP are pretty good evidence to the contrary.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

I'm not comparing the 2, I'm simply stating that Sherk took some sickening knee's from Franca, who has devastating power, and wasn't taken out of his game. I think his chin will hold up if BJ tags him a few times.

I am well aware of BJ Penn.


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## FunkYou (Apr 22, 2007)

The only fight that has been as close as this on paper recently is Hendo - Silva. The forum was split pretty much down the middle. Same here and rightly so. Both fighters could win this and whoever does there will be no excuses, at least there shouldn't be. Personally I hope BJ wins. 

If it goes the distance then I can see Sherk being more dominant in the later rounds. What could be exciting is if Penn wins the first three rounds before gassing then Sherk will be in a position where just staying active on top as usual won't be enough he will have to try and finish. 

This really does have the makings of a classic.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

Chrisl972 said:


> I do agree with all of these except one.
> 
> 1. Great Wrestling
> 2. Submission Defense
> ...


Hughes didn't have "superior striking", and IMO, neither does GSP. Pulver probably doesn't either, maybe more power, but their striking is about even.

Hughes won by putting Penn on his back, as did GSP. Sherk can put him on his back and win that way...and all it takes is competent striking and good head movement (which Sherk has) until he can take the fight to the mat.


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## Mufofamm (May 9, 2008)

Damone said:


> I'm not comparing the 2, I'm simply stating that Sherk took some sickening knee's from Franca, who has devastating power, and wasn't taken out of his game. I think his chin will hold up if BJ tags him a few times.
> 
> I am well aware of BJ Penn.


i think people are looking wayyy too much into the franca knees. yes, they were hard. yes, sherk was rocked badly and yes he came back quickly from them. but this is MMA. if you get hit at the right angle, at the right time, anyone can go to sleep. just because he survived franca's knees does not mean sherk won't get rocked or KO'd by BJ.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

People look way too much into BJ's performances against Hughes & GSP and try to compare them to Sherk's performances against them.

Sherk's chin is solid, it's been proven. Many seem to think BJ's going to walk in there and KO him with relative ease. The evidence is there that Sean Sherk can take a good shot, just like the evidence is there that BJ packs power.


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## peAk (Feb 20, 2008)

Does Sherk really have fans or is it really just people's hate for BJ?


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

peAk said:


> Does Sherk really have fans or is it really just people's hate for BJ?


Sherk's got a lot of die hard fans, guys who have followed his career through his fights with Karo and Hughes and GSP. Some of them got shaken up with the steroid scandal, but many are still tightly hugging his nuts.

There are some people who don't like BJ. Whatever, he's a great guy and a fantastic martial artist. So's Sherk, for that matter. I just think that BJ is better and BJ is a personal hero because there are many parts of my game that I look up to him in.


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## anton (Oct 15, 2006)

peAk said:


> Does Sherk really have fans or is it really just people's hate for BJ?


i rooted for him against hughes, not really knowing who he was, but simply because i hated matt hughes.

then i saw him fight ueyama in pride and was in awe of his sheer power/wrestling/slammage skills.

then he beat diaz and i was a full fledge fan.

then i watched the all access episode before the franca fight and it was impossible not to be impressed w/ his dedication.

and i dont hate bj...im just a bigger fan of sherk and think bj gets an outstanding amount of love for really, little success.

the reality of it is that bj has lost to the same guys sherk has.


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## BrFighter07 (Jun 16, 2007)

good interview but GSP moving up for lack of guys to fight ???


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## Mufofamm (May 9, 2008)

Damone said:


> People look way too much into BJ's performances against Hughes & GSP and try to compare them to Sherk's performances against them.


i agree, because MMAth doesn't work. although, sherk has a very similar style to hughes (but much more conservative) and to deny that is dumb. styles make fights and BJ has proven to be a great matchup against wrestlers like hughes and sherk. joe stevenson is also a great wrestler and BJ made him look like an amatuer. 

but yeah, MMATH doesn't work. it still doesn't change the fact that BJ will outclass sherk rather easily.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Sherk's got a lot of die hard fans, guys who have followed his career through his fights with Karo and Hughes and GSP. Some of them got shaken up with the steroid scandal, but many are still tightly hugging his nuts.
> 
> There are some people who don't like BJ. Whatever, *he's a great guy* and a fantastic martial artist. So's Sherk, for that matter. I just think that BJ is better and BJ is a personal hero because there are many parts of my game that I look up to him in.


bahahahahaha...a great guy? wow...seriously, even most penn nuthuggers will say he's a cocky ass....and that's nuthuggers....he is a fantastic fighter, but he is no where near a 'great guy'....forrest griffin, that's a great guy...penn is an ass at best

i think alot of people are forgetting that during the hughes/sherk fight (which was a LONG time ago), sherk wasn't even a full time fighter...which is huge.

i think he's at a whole different level bjj-wise, striking-wise, intelligence-wise since then


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

slapshot said:


> He sub'd Diaz so there's some game for you. Really sometimes you have to use this thing called perspective the guy is 18-6 with 11 subs so yeah his bjj looks horrible.... He might not be the best fighter in any respect but he dose have a good sub game.



Yeah well, we weren't really talking about who he subbed. You mentioned his BJJ as top notch. It is nowhere close to top notch (which refers to it being first-rate or exccellent). It isn't that. So, use a this thing called a brain to choose the proper vocabulary and also to comprehend rebuttles to your post.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> Yeah well, we weren't really talking about who he subbed. You mentioned his BJJ as top notch. It is nowhere close to top notch (which refers to it being first-rate or exccellent). It isn't that. So, use a this thing called a brain to choose the proper vocabulary and also to comprehend rebuttles to your post.


yeah...franca's bjj is anything but top notch...i would say florian's is much better frankly....sherk handled both very well...

i think the best strategy for a ground fighter against sherk is to be very aggressive w/ submissions and sweeps, and if you get in trouble...give up your back....w/ sherk's stubby legs his hooks are easily shaken off....sherk knows this and that's why he doesn't take fighters back very often


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> bahahahahaha...a great guy? wow...seriously, even most penn nuthuggers will say he's a *cocky ass*....and that's nuthuggers....he is a fantastic fighter, but he is no where near a 'great guy'....forrest griffin, that's a great guy...penn is an ass at best
> 
> i think alot of people are forgetting that during the hughes/sherk fight (which was a LONG time ago), sherk wasn't even a full time fighter...which is huge.
> 
> i think he's at a whole different level bjj-wise, striking-wise, intelligence-wise since then


Penn is not an ass...he talks smack in interviews to sell fights. Name a guy he has fought and had "bad blood" with or any fighter that knows him that thinks he is an ass. It is all to sell fights, why is that so hard to understand? Not to mention an ass wouldn't open his gym to underprivileged youth to keep them off the street.


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## adude (Jul 5, 2006)

^well punching a police officer, how is that not being an ass?


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> Yeah well, we weren't really talking about who he subbed. You mentioned his BJJ as top notch. It is nowhere close to top notch (which refers to it being first-rate or exccellent). It isn't that. So, use a this thing called a brain to choose the proper vocabulary and also to comprehend rebuttles to your post.


So the guy with 11 subs of his 18 wins has no bjj? Your opinion is just that a opinion, at least Ive watched him fight and can say I know he has a good sub game. As far as BJJ and the submissions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu Bjj is more than just join locks but that is one of the major focus's of BJJ in MMA Einstein.

I would say subbing a guy thats walking through the competition by submitting everyone and who is also highly regarded for his BJJ inside and outside of the UFC would count for something along side his other stats.So "who" he submitted dose show BJJ skill as the act of submitting is itself BJJ so id say in some peoples eyes it would have some influence. 

If there is any comprehension issue its yours once again. I dont even know why I reply to a guy that thinks Kimbo Slice would KO chuck liddell.





Aaronyman said:


> yeah...franca's bjj is anything but top notch...i would say florian's is much better frankly....sherk handled both very well...
> 
> i think the best strategy for a ground fighter against sherk is to be very aggressive w/ submissions and sweeps, and if you get in trouble...give up your back....w/ sherk's stubby legs his hooks are easily shaken off....sherk knows this and that's why he doesn't take fighters back very often


I think you get the point that regardless of anyones opinion Sherk has faced some good BJJ fighters and came out on top.


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## MetalMunkey (Oct 14, 2006)

adude said:


> ^well punching a police officer, how is that not being an ass?


1. That was years ago, people make mistakes, if we held grudges against people who made mistakes then the world would be one pissed off disgruntled place.

2. We don't know the full story. The cops say he blind-side punched him and I heard other accounts that BJ was getting in his car to leave and a cop sprayed him so he shoved the cop.

3. Sherk has an assault charge on him from years ago, should we hold that against him? I won't.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

adude said:


> ^well punching a police officer, how is that not being an ass?


So with every mistake you make, do you get called an ass?


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## adude (Jul 5, 2006)

MLS said:


> So with every mistake you make, do you get called an ass?


i was using it as an example obviously it was a bad one.. i see that he can be a great person to those around him..the constant trash talking he does i seriously think he enjoys humiliating people..constantly pointing out the steriod thing when we dont know the full truth..if he has something he can use against u he will milk it for all its worth...saying sherks a cheater doesnt know hard work saying that him himself puts his "blood sweat and tears' into it when we know hes been lazy in the past..sounds kinda hypocritical...


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

How many people has BJ fought that he has had "bad blood" with has that "bad blood" carried over after the fight? BJ is a natural talent and he feels that Sherk was using something other than hard work or natural talent to get an advantage, would you not be mad as well?


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## adude (Jul 5, 2006)

well i would be suspicious obviously...but i wouldnt conclude for a 100 percent that he was using..considering all the discrepencies involved and the amount of money sherk using to defend him self..i honestly dont think bj is not annoyed or angry at all.. how could he be..i mean sherk never said something to begin with...i think hes just simply using it against him..how would u feel it you were sherk though...say u were him assuming he didnt take steriods..this guys saying all this shit about..saying shit like "grow some balls, u blood pool"...when all uve been doing is working hard all ur life.. eating the right things and this guy happens to have a repuation of being lazy and relying on his god given talents....


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

It depends on whether or not I was guilty. If I wasn't guilty I would be pissed but again the test was positive and that is what it is at that point. If I was guilty I would act pissed so that it looks like I wasn't guilty. It's hard to tell something by the way someone reacts because you don't konow their intentions.


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## adude (Jul 5, 2006)

yeh true thats the things in..when someone accuses you of doing something wrong..u are pissed off and u try to do everything you can to maintain ur integrity...if u did do something wrong..than u were try to sweep it under the rug..not bring any attention to it...i dont think sherk pretending to be pissed..i mean theres pretending to be angry and then theres being angry and spending thousands of opon thousands of dollars defending urself..


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

That all goes back to saving face though. His career with the biggest mma company was on the line. I would of done whatever I had to do as well to keep my contract.


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## adude (Jul 5, 2006)

good point...he does make alot of points that puts doubt in my mind that he is guilty...if he is, hes a great actor..


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

I think many people overstimate BJ Penn ability. It seems like he's Anderson Silva or GSP, when he's not. Far from it. The guy is just 12-4-1, not bad, you'd say, but in his last 6 fights, he's 3-3. His KO power seems to be long gone, the last time he finished someone by (T)KO was in 2002... He's not going to Knock Sherk Out, he's been only KOed by GSP in his 30+ carreer fights.

BJ Penn seems to be really good on paper, but the only way for him to win lately is a RNC or a decision. In fact, only ONE of his submissions was not a RNC.

So, either he makes a RNC to Shrek, or he losses in a decision. It can go either way.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

MLS said:


> It depends on whether or not I was guilty. If I wasn't guilty I would be pissed but again the test was positive and that is what it is at that point. If I was guilty I would act pissed so that it looks like I wasn't guilty. It's hard to tell something by the way someone reacts because you don't konow their intentions.


You have to admit, Sherk must be a gifted actor to keep this "lie" running this whole time. Seriously, the dude must not have a conscience or something to continue to keep lying about it.

I'm still not 100% sold on the idea that he took steroids just because of how poorly the whole situation was handled. In Sherk's defence, he brought up a lot of valid points. I just don't really see how people can blindly believe whatever they are told after all the mistakes that was made by the commission.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

slapshot said:


> So the guy with 11 subs of his 18 wins has no bjj? Your opinion is just that a opinion, at least Ive watched him fight and can say I know he has a good sub game. As far as BJJ and the submissions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu Bjj is more than just join locks but that is one of the major focus's of BJJ in MMA Einstein.
> 
> I would say subbing a guy thats walking through the competition by submitting everyone and who is also highly regarded for his BJJ inside and outside of the UFC would count for something along side his other stats.So "who" he submitted dose show BJJ skill as the act of submitting is itself BJJ so id say in some peoples eyes it would have some influence.
> 
> If there is any comprehension issue its yours once again. I dont even know why I reply to a guy that thinks Kimbo Slice would KO chuck liddell.


First try going back and rereading the post I made and the ones you made. You say Franca has "top notch", I say he doesn't. Where exactly did I state that Franca has no BJJ? I don't see how I was the one making the comprehension error here. I know enough about BJJ not to have to refer to wikipedia, but thanks. I know BJJ is also about sweeps and holding positions in gaining position advantages. Somehting Franca clearly hasn't mastered. This is also holding him back from being considered "top notch". Maybe the fact that he is Brazilian is throwing you off. 

As for the Kimbo comment, I don't even believe that is relevant. Clearly a different set of fighters with different skillsets. Just about the only guys with close to Kimbo's size and striking that Liddell has faced are Rampage and Overeem. Both of those guys beat Chuck's ass. Chuck pulled out the win against Overeem with a huge shot late in the fight. Kimbo would give him problems the whole fight and Chuck would find it tough to get close enough to KO. Chuck has a problem with large, angry, black guys. 

You respond because you feel the need to prove you are not wrong. Even your Sherk nuthugger friends admit that Franca's BJJ is not "top notch". Because he is somewhat objecive.



slapshot said:


> I think you get the point that regardless of anyones opinion Sherk has faced some good BJJ fighters and came out on top.


And BJ has faced way better wrestlers and come out on top, but MMA math doesn't work. The difference is Sherk hasn't faced anyone with BJJ near BJ's ability. That is why everyone is picking Penn. This is the second best fighter Sherk has ever faced. (GSP being #1 and he stomped Sherk) This is like the 4th or 5th best BJ has faced and he beat all those guys exccept Machida and GSP. (Hughes, GSP, Machida, and Gomi being better)



adude said:


> ^well punching a police officer, how is that not being an ass?


How about because he was protecting his brother? when he found out it was a cop he ran away, but turned himself in later.



valrond said:


> I think many people overstimate BJ Penn ability. It seems like he's Anderson Silva or GSP, when he's not. Far from it. The guy is just 12-4-1, not bad, you'd say, but in his last 6 fights, he's 3-3. His KO power seems to be long gone, the last time he finished someone by (T)KO was in 2002... He's not going to Knock Sherk Out, he's been only KOed by GSP in his 30+ carreer fights.
> 
> BJ Penn seems to be really good on paper, but the only way for him to win lately is a RNC or a decision. In fact, only ONE of his submissions was not a RNC.
> 
> So, either he makes a RNC to Shrek, or he losses in a decision. In can go either way.


What exactly is wrong with a RNC? I think everyone knows BJ is not limited. If you don't, then wow, you just need to go somewhere else. I think that a RNC is harder than most subs to get. First you usually get the mount, then pound on a guy until he gives you his back, then pound on him some more until you get the only sub possible from that position. Sounds nice and easy but usually harder and a testament to BJJ skills moreso than surprising someone with a flash armbar or triangle. Both are great displays though. It seems harder to hold position and advance it then it does just to lock in a quick sub.

As for BJ's hype, I can't speak for everyone, but my own personal feelings about him are that he is by far a top talent in the world of MMA. Unfortunately he hasn't fully dedicated himself to training in the past. He has relied on his skills only in some fights. That may be the reson for his losses against Machida, GSP, and Hughes. I have been amazed by BJ in almost all of his fights. He has done something that I just have never seen any other fighter do in most fights and that is why I am a fan.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Rated said:


> You have to admit, Sherk must be a gifted actor to keep this "lie" running this whole time. Seriously, the dude must not have a conscience or something to continue to keep lying about it.
> 
> I'm still not 100% sold on the idea that he took steroids just because of how poorly the whole situation was handled. In Sherk's defence, he brought up a lot of valid points. I just don't really see how people can blindly believe whatever they are told after all the mistakes that was made by the commission.


So you don't think if you are fighting for your career you would be able to keep an act up? It's really not that hard all you do is deny whatt happend and continue to deny what happened. How hard is that to keep up?


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> First try going back and rereading the post I made and the ones you made. You say Franca has "top notch", I say he doesn't. Where exactly did I state that Franca has no BJJ? I don't see how I was the one making the comprehension error here. I know enough about BJJ not to have to refer to wikipedia, but thanks. I know BJJ is also about sweeps and holding positions in gaining position advantages. Somehting Franca clearly hasn't mastered. This is also holding him back from being considered "top notch". Maybe the fact that he is Brazilian is throwing you off.


Its more that little bit of stupidity where you act like BJJ in MMA has nothing to do with submissions, which is ludicrous and makes you look like a moron and a jerk.

Toss Brazilian out the door and call it (apple pie)Jiu-Jitsu its all the same where MMA is concerned, clearly your getting hung up on the grappling ect, as far as MMA goes his Jiu-Jitsu is good period. you're nit picking a point that even if your right proves nothing about sherk because as my "nuthugger" friend had the insight to point out he has faces other BJJ guys than just Franca so your just arguing to argue. Grappling is part of Jiu-Jitsu and Franca might be less than perfect at it, do you have a ******* point there? because my point was he dose have a submission game that's good and Sherk handled it well and he dose have a sub game because submitting Nate Diaz is a chore nobody in the UFC has been able to pull off. Some fighters focus on submissions its still Jiu-Jitsu and he is very capable obviously we do have his record to point that out. 



ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> As for the Kimbo comment, I don't even believe that is relevant. Clearly a different set of fighters with different skillsets. Just about the only guys with close to Kimbo's size and striking that Liddell has faced are Rampage and Overeem. Both of those guys beat Chuck's ass. Chuck pulled out the win against Overeem with a huge shot late in the fight. Kimbo would give him problems the whole fight and Chuck would find it tough to get close enough to KO. Chuck has a problem with large, angry, black guys.


Its just a reference to what kind of person you are and how you differ from someone with rational though. 


ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> You respond because you feel the need to prove you are not wrong. Even your Sherk nuthugger friends admit that Franca's BJJ is not "top notch". Because he is somewhat objecive.


Answered that above.




ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> And BJ has faced way better wrestlers and come out on top, but MMA math doesn't work. The difference is Sherk hasn't faced anyone with BJJ near BJ's ability. That is why everyone is picking Penn. This is the second best fighter Sherk has ever faced. (GSP being #1 and he stomped Sherk) This is like the 4th or 5th best BJ has faced and he beat all those guys exccept Machida and GSP. (Hughes, GSP, Machida, and Gomi being better)


I dont think Hughes could drop down to this weight and beat sherk, never been all that impressed with Gomi but W/E Like you said MMA math dosent work even though you dont let that stop you from using it in a attempt to bolster your point, styles make fights. 

Back on topic BJ's Jiu-Jitsu is overrated and I stick to that for all the reason I listed and some other people have stated as well, I never said he's not good just not otherworldly. 




ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> How about because he was protecting his brother? when he found out it was a cop he ran away, but turned himself in later.


I could care less how big of a jerk he is or is not I judge fighters on there skill in the ring I dont think Ive seen anything that makes him any different as a person than most fighters IMO his attitude is acceptable, I just pointed out he has to be mad to be motivated it seems like. 



ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> What exactly is wrong with a RNC? I think everyone knows BJ is not limited. If you don't, then wow, you just need to go somewhere else. I think that a RNC is harder than most subs to get. First you usually get the mount, then pound on a guy until he gives you his back, then pound on him some more until you get the only sub possible from that position. Sounds nice and easy but usually harder and a testament to BJJ skills moreso than surprising someone with a flash armbar or triangle. Both are great displays though. It seems harder to hold position and advance it then it does just to lock in a quick sub.


I guess the RNC thing just looks sloppy compared to having some other submissions on the record? IDK in my opinion RNC's are fine, one thing's for sure sherk has no neck a RNC might be hard to get locking in tight.


ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> As for BJ's hype, I can't speak for everyone, but my own personal feelings about him are that he is by far a top talent in the world of MMA. Unfortunately he hasn't fully dedicated himself to training in the past. He has relied on his skills only in some fights. That may be the reson for his losses against Machida, GSP, and Hughes. I have been amazed by BJ in almost all of his fights. He has done something that I just have never seen any other fighter do in most fights and that is why I am a fan.


Yep he is good and fun to watch I just think this time he'll lose. I never stated "BJ Pen is a scrub in wolf's clothing" you call other people nuthuggers and say there all on a fighters nuts, then make it a point to swing from penn's in the post seems hypocritical to me but Oh Well honestly as long as this turns out to be a good fight I'll be happy. I really dont have much of a vested interest but WAR SHERK for all you knob polishers out there! /duck


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## Goat Man (Oct 19, 2007)

kds13 said:


> Some of you guys say BJ is fine on his back but avoid saying that Sherk has some of the best top game in all of MMA? :confused03:
> 
> Sure, BJ could sweep or submit Sherk from his back, but to argue that its basically going to happen, which is what some of you make it sound like, is kind of weird since Sherk has never been submitted and has great top control.
> 
> It could happen, but to outright say it will is a bit ludicrous.


Although cases can be made for both fighters, this thread is obviously composed predominantly of Penn nut kissers. That's why there is no real mention of Sherk's positive attributes.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

MLS said:


> So you don't think if you are fighting for your career you would be able to keep an act up? It's really not that hard all you do is deny whatt happend and continue to deny what happened. How hard is that to keep up?


Sure, maybe you could lie to the public but would you be able to keep up this charade with all your family and friends? This is not exactly a white lie, if Sherk knowingly took steroids, his actions had serious consequences.

I don't know, maybe the two of us have different morals. :dunno:

Do you also acknowledge the mistakes that the commission made during the whole procedure? Or do you feel that it is irrelevant to the case?


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

*Sherk Still Considering Action Against California*



> The ongoing battle between former UFC lightweight champion Sean Sherk and the state of California may not be down for the count just yet as the Minnesota native confirmed his focus for now is on B.J. Penn, but he may revisit legal action at some point down the road.
> 
> “Right now, basically, I was cleared to fight, had a date in mind, had a goal in mind and so I just wanted to first off get this fight out of the way and get my career back on track,” said Sherk during a recent appearance on MMAWeekly Radio. “And there’s no statute of limitations as far as how long I have to do this thing by, so I’m still talking to my lawyer. We’re still working some stuff out, and after this fight, maybe that’s something that we can go back to.”
> 
> ...



http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=6273&zoneid=2


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

> During the interview, Sherk reaffirmed his previous statements about never fighting in the state of California again after his treatment during the suspension and subsequent hearings with the state’s athletic commission.
> 
> “I’ve got no desire to fight in California,” Sherk stated. “The UFC’s fighting all over the country now. They’re coming here to Minneapolis in a few months, so I’ve just got no desire to fight in California now. I don’t like the way I was treated and fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, right?”


YOU TOOK STEROIDS !!! jeezuz his complaining about the treatment he got !?!?


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## mma17 (Jun 4, 2007)

I'm getting very sick of this, he honestly needs to just move on. I know it's a personal goal of his to clear things up, but the fans (at least me) are just sick of hearing about it. I'm just happy this fight is about to go down. When is it again? End of May?


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

mma17 said:


> When is it again? End of May?


http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/32389-ufc-84-ill-will-discussion-thread.html


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

Another BJ nuthugging thread?


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Sherk is such a douchebag. I just cant understand how someone who was caught with steroids can continue to disrespect themselves by not letting it go. 

I would have gained alot of respect back for Sherk if he had just said he was wrong. Regardless of whether he injested them on purpose, although I have a hard time seeing it as n accident, he still had them in his system, and therefor he was not careful enough. 


Any of you guys out there accidentally ingested steroids lately? I think I might have last week when that guy in the gym poked me with a needle.

He just needs to let it go....even if he never took em and the test was a false positive, it is over now and you have a title shot with a clean test. Go win.

As a side question, how many of you were surprised when Sherk was caught with roids? All of my friends let out a collective scream of "WE KNEW IT!!!!". He was the only fighter in the UFC I ever looked at and thought "roids" right away.


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

Apecity said:


> Any of you guys out there accidentally ingested steroids lately


so very true !!! its the same deal EVERY time someone gets cought. remember floyd landis ( tour de france ) ?.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

Apecity said:


> Any of you guys out there accidentally ingested steroids lately...I think I might have last week when that guy in the gym poked me with a needle.



I accidentally drank too many bud lights last night so I called my lawyer and we're suing Anheuser-Busch for my hangover.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

norway1 said:


> so very true !!! its the same deal EVERY time someone gets cought. remember floyd landis ( tour de france ) ?.


It really is the same excuse every time: "My coach did it..." "It was an accident..." "I had a injured ___ and my doctor gave it to me..."

The fact of the matter is these docs are the same ones responsible for supplying proffesional wrestlers with medicine cabinets full of legal and often illegal enhancers. Some people seem to think that "if a doctor gave it to Xfighter it must be OK". 






Walker said:


> I accidentally drank too many bud lights last night so I called my lawyer and we're suing Anheuser-Busch for my hangover.


LOL! I think you have a solid case!


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

drockh said:


> Another BJ nuthugging thread?


You are the only one whom mentioned BJ.


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

You people are hilarious... They never proved that steroids were in his system... just that his test result was positive. His qualm was with the test procedure and that the equipment was contiminated since the last 2 people tested positive.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Rated said:


> Sure, maybe you could lie to the public but would you be able to keep up this charade with all your family and friends? This is not exactly a white lie, if Sherk knowingly took steroids, his actions had serious consequences.
> 
> I don't know, maybe the two of us have different morals. :dunno:
> 
> Do you also acknowledge the mistakes that the commission made during the whole procedure? Or do you feel that it is irrelevant to the case?


To question whether he is keeping this up with family and friends is irrelevant because you have no way to prove that he is keeping it up.

I do acknowledge the mistakes that the commission made and have never said anything other than that. Do you acknowlegde that it isn't that farfetched to believe that Sherk took steroids?


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

drockh said:


> They never proved that steroids were in his system... just that his test result was positive. .


:confused02:


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

norway1 said:


> :confused02:



Are you ignorant enough not to consider other factors? such as human error? He had enough evidence that in a court of law he would have been found innocent.


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## Green Scape (Nov 15, 2006)

I thought Sherk never got a legit opportunity to defend himself and have his evidence reviewed.

If that's the case or not, give the guy a break. Not holding anything up it's his career, not ours.


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

Theres a reason we have a judicial system in this country... Cases arent always as plain and simple they seem.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

MLS said:


> To question whether he is keeping this up with family and friends is irrelevant because you have no way to prove that he is keeping it up.
> 
> I do acknowledge the mistakes that the commission made and have never said anything other than that. Do you acknowlegde that it isn't that farfetched to believe that Sherk took steroids?


It's not irrelevant because _if_ he did take steroids knowingly, then he is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life. My earlier point was that he must not have much of a conscience - or at least hold a different set of morals than myself - to be able to do this. Well, this is all under the assumption that he did not tell any of them because wouldn't this whole thing have leaked out if he did blab it out?

I already stated that we will never _truly_ know if he took steroids or not. I neither denied the possibility that he took steroids nor did I blindly agree with the popular opinion that he did.

I'm just really curious as to how so many people are so confident about his guilt when the whole case was a total mess.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

drockh said:


> Are you ignorant enough not to consider other factors? such as human error? He had enough evidence that in a court of law he would have been found innocent.


Actually he had a bunch of circumstantial evidence that would of only led to him taking another piss test and by then everything would have been out of his system. There is no clear cut evidence in this case.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

drockh said:


> Are you ignorant enough not to consider other factors? such as human error? He had enough evidence that in a court of law he would have been found innocent.


Sure... there is the possibility of human error in everything done by a human.

What I find 'hilarious' is why anyone would believe it to be only an isolated event in Sherk's case.

...shouldnt this mean that for every sports figure that tested positive for roids that they too are innocent, and merely the victim of human error?
... oh no, just Sherk... everyone else was guilty as sin...
Why? because Sherk 'said so'? LOL
Or because of the lie detector test... which proves what? ... just that he didnt 'knowingly' take anything.

So not only did he not take anything... but IF he did, he didnt know about it... nice.


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

Rated said:


> It's not irrelevant because _if_ he did take steroids knowingly, then he is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life. My earlier point was that he must not have much of a conscience - or at least hold a different set of morals than myself - to be able to do this.
> 
> I already stated that we will never _truly_ know if he took steroids or not. I neither denied the possibility that he took steroids nor did I blindly agree with the popular opinion that he did.
> 
> I'm just really curious as how some people are so definite that he is guilty when the who case was a total mess.



To live a lie such as that you would have to be a pretty good pathelogical liar.. From the friends and trainers of his I have met it doesnt seem like thats in his character at all.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Rated said:


> It's not irrelevant because _if_ he did take steroids knowingly, then he is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life. My earlier point was that he must not have much of a conscience - or at least hold a different set of morals than myself - to be able to do this.
> 
> I already stated that we will never _truly_ know if he took steroids or not. I neither denied the possibility that he took steroids nor did I blindly agree with the popular opinion that he did.
> 
> I'm just really curious as to how so many people are so confident about his guilt when the whole case was a total mess.


Again it is irrlevant because you don't know him so you don't know what he is willing to live with. Maybe he is fine with living with it, then what?


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

attention said:


> Sure... there is the possibility of human error in everything done by a human.
> 
> What I find 'hilarious' is why anyone would believe it to be only an isolated event in Sherk's case.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying every person who tested positive is innocent.... In fact im sure 99% of them are guilty. Show me another case that had enough evidence where there could have been error similar to sherks case. He didnt have enough to have me 100% convinced but he had enough for me to believe he could be innocent too..


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

drockh said:


> ...
> He had enough evidence that in a court of law he would have been found innocent.


Uh, innocent?
what are you talking about? its not about innocence... you seem to be confusing criminal with civil law...

In a civil case, they just have to prove its 'more likely' as opposed to 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

He was done as soon as the 3rd party, unbiased test results came in.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

drockh said:


> I'm not saying every person who tested positive is innocent.... In fact im sure 99% of them are guilty. Show me another case that had enough evidence where there could have been error similar to sherks case. He didnt have enough to have me 100% convinced but he had enough for me to believe he could be innocent too..


He didn't have enough evidence to support him in court either like you said.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

drockh said:


> You people are hilarious... They never proved that steroids were in his system... just that his test result was positive. His qualm was with the test procedure and that the equipment was contiminated since the last 2 people tested positive.


/facepalm


Please enlighten me on the difference between testing positive and proving steroids were in his system.

What exactly would they use to prove steroids were in his system other than a steroid test that comes back positive?

Should they cut him open?

The last 2 fighters tested positive admitted to *duh duh duh* STEROIDS. One of them said it was a doctor who gave them to him to help with an injury. What do you think happened exactly? You think sherk accidentally peed on the same stick as someone else?

Sherk was using tactics to STALL so that if he was asked to take another test it would come back clean.

Let me help you out:
After successfully defending his title against Hermes Franca at UFC 73 on July 7, 2007, the California State Athletic Commission announced that Sherk and Franca had both tested positive for banned steroids in post-fight drug tests. After testing positive for Nandrolone, Sherk was fined $2,500 and suspended from competing in California until July 6, 2008. He has since filed an extension for his appeal hearing.[3] His appeal was December 4, 2007, which saw Sherk's suspension reduced to 6 months, making him eligible to fight in early January 2008.[4] According to UFC President Dana White, Sherk has passed a lie detector test that he did not knowingly take steroids.[5] Sherk also claimed errors were made in lab testing procedures, as three people tested immediately prior to him tested positive for steroids, however the lab has not confirmed or admitted these errors.[6]. Sherk claims that the failure of the lab to properly test the vials used in the earlier, positive tests for any remaining steroid content may have resulted in his sample becoming contaminated with nandrolone.[6] However during the appeal to the CSAC Dr. Barry Sample of Quest Diagnostics heard and then refuted all of Sherk's arguments.

Following the CSAC's decision to uphold the results of the positive steroid test (although simultaneously reducing his suspension to six months), the UFC officially stripped Sherk of the lightweight title.[7] The match between B. J. Penn and Joe Stevenson at UFC 80 was then changed to be for the official lightweight title instead of an interim title.[7] Penn defeated Stevenson, and the UFC has officially announced that Penn's first title defense will be against Sherk, who was reinstated by UFC in April 2008.[8] The date has been set for May 24th 2008 at UFC 84: Ill Will.[8]

Sherk is simply trying to clear his name with weak excuses. Anyone who has worked in a lab knows his arguements are bunk.


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

bleh.. Im not arguing with BJ penn fans.. Its pointless


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

Apecity said:


> /facepalm
> 
> 
> Please enlighten me on the difference between testing positive and proving steroids were in his system.
> ...



FYI the last 2 people tested positive. contaminted equipment means positive test.. thats all.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

drockh said:


> I'm not saying every person who tested positive is innocent.... In fact im sure 99% of them are guilty. Show me another case that had enough evidence where there could have been error similar to sherks case. He didnt have enough to have me 100% convinced but he had enough for me to believe he could be innocent too..


How about any event where one guy tests positive and another guy doesnt? theres lots of precedence for that.

You have to put a certain amount of trust in the lab doing the testing. If you dont, then you might was well discredit all testing going through that lab. You cant pick and choose which ones are flawed and which ones arent.
We have to assume there are precautions against contamination, you would think that this would be the case... unless of course its some backroom, fly by night company doing the testing.

Im sorry, but I dont buy the conspiracy theory... but that doesnt mean it didnt happen...JMHO.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

drockh said:


> bleh.. Im not arguing with BJ penn fans.. Its pointless


No, you just don't have an argument.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

drockh said:


> FYI the last 2 people tested positive. contaminted equipment means positive test.. thats all.


Geeze... thats just illogical.

How about showing a pattern that this particular lab has made this kind of mistake before?

You are not giving the lab any credit... without any grounds other than the above statement.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

drockh said:


> FYI the last 2 people tested positive. contaminted equipment means positive test.. thats all.


What? 

Contaminated equipment means positive test?

Where is the evidence the equipment was contaminated? because you say so?!

Where is the evidence that the last 2 people who tested positive WERE NOT on steroids? Is it not possible that those two fighters took...steroids?

What does this have to do with BJ Penn?! Other than the fact these two are fighting you are the only one who has brought him up. Should I just stop making valid points because you are a Sherk fan? No, because I respect some peoples intelligence enough to recognize they can be a fan and still be objective.

You are putting words in everyones mouth!! Including Sean Sherk!!!

If I follow your logic then I could go out and kill someone, then when the DNA evidence comes back I can just say "OOOOH TECHNOLOGY DID IT!!! THE MACHINE IS BROKES I SWEARZ IT!!! damn newfangled contraptions...."


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Or could those two guys have been on steroids? Did they question the results of the test?


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

You are not even reading what I wrote. I clearly stated that he must have a different set of morals than myself if he is doing it ...


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Rated said:


> You are not even reading what I wrote. I clearly stated that he must have a different set of morals than myself if he is doing it ...


So that makes my earlier statement irrelevant because he may have different morals than you?


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> Or could those two guys have been on steroids? Did they question the results of the test?


From what I remember Franca said a doctor had given him a steroid to help recover from an injury. So in other words he admitted to taking steroids, making the test results valid.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Apecity said:


> From what I remember Franca said a doctor had given him a steroid to help recover from an injury. So in other words he admitted to taking steroids, making the test results valid.


There were two other guys who tested positve besides Sherk. Franca was one and there was another. Franca didn't challenge the test and I didn't hear about the other guy challenging his so...


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

Sherk just needs to stop and get along with his life.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

The thing I find funny is that he just had a clean test and he has a shot at the title again. What better way to clear your name is there than a clean test and beating shit out of BJ penn? 

I would not hold anything against Sherk if he comes up clean post-fight and wins! He already cleared his first test, so good on him.

He will be the true champ. 

Will I like him? No. But you are allowed to cheat and play again, and I will respect him for every victory he has with a clean test. What else can I go on?


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

Well, the original intent of my post was to make others _aware_ that simply lying about this sort of issue is _not_ as easy as it appears.

Since several people are 100% sold that Sherk took steroids, I thought I offer people a different perspective of the situation. The point has (somewhat) went astrayed with this discussion.

I'm just giving food for thought.


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## Green Scape (Nov 15, 2006)

attention said:


> Sure... there is the possibility of human error in everything done by a human.
> 
> What I find 'hilarious' is why anyone would believe it to be only an isolated event in Sherk's case.
> 
> ...


I know it seems very typical. Sherk's only beef here is with the CSAC and how the procedures were handled during the test and after he tested positive. This isn't a stand for steroid use and who's failed in other states or other cases, he just wants to excersize his rights and if he's confident enough to prove his innocense legally, why not? Just because mma fans think he did it does that make it final for Sean Sherk?

Before we get all extreme, I will. 

Suppose you walk down to road to grab a donut and someone that that looks like you sneaks in the back of your house and runs out the front door bloody as hell, jumps in your car and takes off. Your neighbors call the cops and find your wife murdered in the living room, and the criminal happened to hop out of the car down the street where you got your donut. You're arrested.

You and your wife argued on the lawn the night before, your neighbors describe the criminal as looking just like you. Fox news gets a hold of the story and ONLY says "You've been taken in for questioning" but everyone immediately assumes you're guilty, you don't defend yourself for that very reason and go to jail for life.

THE END.

I knowww it has nothing to do with steroids, mma, or any other athlete that's failed, but you didn't defend yourself. Apparently Sherk didn't get a chance to defend himself. So let him do it if he wants, he'll either look stupid or look great. No need to rag the guy because you passed final judgement on him when he hasn't pleaded his case. It's like you guys don't care about the case, but care WAY too much about Sherk being guilty and remaining that way?

Sherk never even said he was DEFINITELY doing this either, so what's with the backlash from this thread?


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Green Scape said:


> I know it seems very typical. Sherk's only beef here is with the CSAC and how the procedures were handled during the test and after he tested positive. This isn't a stand for steroid use and who's failed in other states or other cases, he just wants to excersize his rights and if he's confident enough to prove his innocense legally, why not? Just because mma fans think he did it does that make it final for Sean Sherk?
> 
> Before we get all extreme, I will.
> 
> ...


Sherk had an oppertunity to defend himself:


After testing positive for Nandrolone, Sherk was fined $2,500 and suspended from competing in California until July 6, 2008. He has since filed an extension for his appeal hearing.[3] His appeal was December 4, 2007, which saw Sherk's suspension reduced to 6 months, making him eligible to fight in early January 2008.[4]

Sherk claims that the failure of the lab to properly test the vials used in the earlier, positive tests for any remaining steroid content may have resulted in his sample becoming contaminated with nandrolone.[6] However during the appeal to the CSAC Dr. Barry Sample of Quest Diagnostics heard and then refuted all of Sherk's arguments.

Sounds like he made some claims and the doctor told him "nice try".

I think the backlash comes from alot of us just wanting this one to die. We will never know for sure, but we do know the two sides of the arguement. I happen to believe that it is unlikely the test results were incorrect. Having worked ina lab I know mistakes can happen, but that things as serious as drug tests are always double checked. Often times when the result comes back positive the results are triple checked. 



I guess the main reason it annoys me is that he is only dragging his own name through the dirt! Sherk is about to have a title shot. Casual fans, especially, will not be impressed if they hear about him juicing. *Like you said in your example, once the media has a hold of you, your good name is gone. Sherk would be smart to recognize this and never mention it again, no matter what the truth.*


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

Green Scape said:


> I know it seems very typical. Sherk's only beef here is with the CSAC and how the procedures were handled during the test and after he tested positive. This isn't a stand for steroid use and who's failed in other states or other cases, he just wants to excersize his rights and if he's confident enough to prove his innocense legally, why not? Just because mma fans think he did it does that make it final for Sean Sherk?
> 
> Before we get all extreme, I will.
> 
> ...


I got no beef with Sherk.
If there is a procedure that allows for this action, why not? thats what its there for, let him do what he think needs to be done.

I only take issue with people trying to rationalize his 'innocence' based on 'criminal' standards... which is simply just ignorant.

This was not a criminal venue, where people are innocent until proven guilty. It closer to a civil case where rulings are made by 'most likely'. 

No one is going to jail, they hit people with a fine and take away their ability to make money for a set period of time. 

Hersey evidence is allowed, which is why Sherk did the whole 'lie detector' thing... 
its about convincing the commission that although it seems like its 'most likely' that he was using, in his case its 'just as likely' that he wasnt... so throw me a bone and dont do anything.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

Apecity said:


> Sherk claims that the failure of the lab to properly test the vials used in the earlier, positive tests for any remaining steroid content may have resulted in his sample becoming contaminated with nandrolone.[6] However during the appeal to the CSAC *Dr. Barry Sample of Quest Diagnostics heard and then refuted all of Sherk's arguments.*


Can you provide a more detailed info concerning this part? Or do you have any info on what _exactly_ Sherk said and how these arguments were refuted?

I really like to get the facts straight on what happened during the trial.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

I love the people who just blindly hate on Sherk because they believe the CSAC despite MASSIVE amounts of irregularities in their testing policies. 

No one cares about the fact he passed his alternate drug test AND a full on blood test? No one cares that two people before him tested positive and they did NOT adequately clean the testing machine? No one cares that Sherk passed all his polygraph tests? No one cares that the CSAC reduced his suspension and wouldn't have done so had there not been any mistakes?


Give me a freaking break.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Rated said:


> Can you provide a more detailed info concerning this part? Or do you have any info on what _exactly_ Sherk said and how these arguments were refuted?
> 
> I really like to get the facts straight on what happened during the trial.


Sure thing:
http://www.mmamadness.com/insight.html?newsitem_id=193

MMA Madness: What will the defense against the positive test entail? 

Sherk: We made a lot of good arguments as far as custody of testing materials. We found carry over into the machines, too. The three people who got tested before me were found to be positive. They are supposed to clean it in between each test. They did do that but what they didn’t do is test for any remaining steroids in the vial. They are supposed to do a test run after the cleaning but they screwed that up. The machine still had steroids in it! We found contamination in one of my samples, so after it came back positive, I got a blood test that was clean and I passed a polygraph. We had a lot of evidence for the commission but they just weren’t willing to listen.


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## Green Scape (Nov 15, 2006)

Rated said:


> Can you provide a more detailed info concerning this part? Or do you have any info on what _exactly_ Sherk said and how these arguments were refuted?
> 
> I really like to get the facts straight on what happened during the trial.


He brings up good points and so do we. Tell me about it, I wish we had a video of everything from start to finish. Like for the Doctor, who hired him? Does he normally work for the Athletic Commision, is he an expert Quest Diagnostics USUALLY sends in for these types of matters? Should Sherk go after Quest or the Athletic Commision for not making sure Quest properly followed procedures. It's just so much more complicated than "Sherk Guilty, end story".


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

kds13 said:


> I love the people who just blindly hate on Sherk because they believe the CSAC despite MASSIVE amounts of irregularities in their testing policies.
> 
> No one cares about the fact he passed his alternate drug test? No one cares that two people before him tested positive and they did NOT adequately clean the testing machine? they did NOT adequately clean the testing machine No one cares that the CSAC reduced his suspension and wouldn't have done so had there not been any mistakes?
> 
> ...


Please, I would LOVE to see some evidence that "they did NOT adequately clean the testing machine". I can't believe you would even say that. It is heresay and there is absolutly no evidence for this. If you can provide a link in which the independant third party that did the testing admits this happened, I'll eat my words. Until then...

Polygraph?

Just to give an example of how the academic community feels about polygraphs:
I am fourth year psych student and one of my essay questions during my criminal behavior exam was actually the following: "Exlpain why polygraph tests are invalid measures of guilt. Use direct evidence from the Canadian Judical System, including why they are no longer accepted." 

It is a well known fact that polygraphs are one of the least innacurate ways to measure truth. There are numerous ways to fool the machines, some of which are as simple as flexxing yer glutts. Not only that, but polygraphs have an unprecidented number of false positives and negatives. 

Reduced suspension = mistakes? Hmmmm, I'd love for you to provide a link stating that is the reason why his sentance was reduced. I never heard anyything along those lines.

All of this evidence is just word of mouth with no facts.

Again, here is what Sherk said:
Sherk: We made a lot of good arguments as far as custody of testing materials. We found carry over into the machines, too. The three people who got tested before me were found to be positive. They are supposed to clean it in between each test. They did do that but what they didn’t do is test for any remaining steroids in the vial. They are supposed to do a test run after the cleaning but they screwed that up. The machine still had steroids in it! We found contamination in one of my samples, so after it came back positive, I got a blood test that was clean and I passed a polygraph. We had a lot of evidence for the commission but they just weren’t willing to listen.

I wonder if Sherk has any motivation to say somthing like that....hmmmm.....

I wonder if the reason the commision wouldn't listen is that he had no evidence for these outrageous claims....


PS: I like the pic in yer siggy


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## Mufofamm (May 9, 2008)

i think BJ absolutely will take sherk down. if sherk wants to win this fight he better be defending those takedowns well. the question is: will he? the answer is: no.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

Hmm, that was an interesting read.

Off-topic but in his latest interview, he said he had no desire to go up 170lbs but in this earlier interview, he said he would love to go up to avenge his loss. I guess he changed his mind.

Also, I'm surprised that they have no regulation with how to test the samples (if Sherk is right). However, this article is still vague. From what I read, it seems like the commission simply denied any responsbility because they wanted to uphold their reputation. Well, maybe they did realize their mistakes and that's why Sherk got a lesser sentence.

Pretty much, none of us really know what happened. It's absurd for anyone to believe that Sherk is 100% guilty when none of us have the facts straight.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

kds13 said:


> I love the people who just blindly hate on Sherk because they believe the CSAC despite MASSIVE amounts of irregularities in their testing policies.
> 
> No one cares about the fact he passed his alternate drug test AND a full on blood test? No one cares that two people before him tested positive and they did NOT adequately clean the testing machine? No one cares that Sherk passed all his polygraph tests? No one cares that the CSAC reduced his suspension and wouldn't have done so had there not been any mistakes?
> 
> ...


There are 'MASSIVE' amount of irregularities? I didnt realize that. I am curious and would like to follow up on that statement... 

What about the people after Sherk?
Should they not have tested positive as well? 
or they just forgot to clean it before Sherk only... and everyone else they cleaned?

'polygraph test' would only help about his 'knowingly' using... so this isnt contrary to him 'actually' using.
It was his own claim that if it was there... he didnt know about.

I didnt realize the reduction was an admission of negligence on the commissions part. IMHO, the concession was because there was some weight given to his 'knowingly' taking them.


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## Braveheart (Oct 11, 2006)

*Penn rips on Sherks alleged steroid use*

"Sean Sherk did you take any steroids for this fight? ...what about growth hormone? ..what about blood doping? ...let me know, let me know," Penn said.

Sherk did his best to blow Penn off, but Penn refused to let it go, interrupting Sherk repeatedly

http://blogs.chron.com/fighting/2008/05/bj_penn_and_dana_white_hold_no.html

listen to audio as well, BJ tries his best to get into Sherks head. Can't decide if he's tryign to hype the fight or just feels like he needs that extra edge in the octagon comes May 24th.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Rated said:


> Pretty much, none of us really know what happened. It's absurd for anyone to believe that Sherk is 100% guilty when none of us have the facts straight.


Just for the record, I am not 100% sure that he is guilty. I am just 100% sure that Sherk, as with others on this board, have 0 factual evidence to back up the outrageous claims they make regarding how the tests were conducted.

Cmon guys, this is back to high school english/history! Just because someone writes somthing down doesn't make it true. You need a reference from a respectable source. That is why it is so much easier to argue against Sherk: all he has is his word. The commison has the word of a reputable source, an independant testing facility. Does that make him wrong? No. But he has no facts from reputable sources to back up his arguements.

All I would have said to Sherk "Source please".

Maybe Sherk works part time in the lab!


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## 70seven (Mar 5, 2007)

I'm cheering for BJ, but he acted like an a-hole in that interview. Props to Shawn Sherk for keeping his cool and remaining professional.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

Yeah, I would like to see a trial transcript or something. There's nothing really solid here to tell me what really transpired. :\


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Penn really does sound like a dick. Sounds more and more like he is letting his anger get to him. Although in a way I can't blame him for being upset.

I don't believe Sherk, but I respect his proffesional attitude. 

I respect Bj's philosophy on steroid use, but he should always conduct himself as a proffesional.


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## Gluteal Cleft (May 12, 2007)

What a low-class douche. He's not far from being a mini-Tito.

Not only does his high-pitched, cry-baby voice sound like a girl, I haven't heard that much bitchy, emotional, straight-out whining from a guy, only from chicks. It's hard for me to even imagine a man sitting there boo-hooing like that while I listen to it.


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## mma17 (Jun 4, 2007)

drockh said:


> Are you ignorant enough not to consider other factors? such as human error? He had enough evidence that in a court of law he would have been found innocent.


Why would they have suspended him for six months if he was innocent?


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## Ultrashock (Nov 19, 2006)

What the **** is BJ trying to pull...a Frank Shamrock? I lose more and more respect for him every time he opens his mouth. Not a class act at all. Props to Sherk for trying to blow off BJ's immaturity. It's really getting annoying and I hope in contrast to the Stevenson fight, they shower BJ in boos for acting like a child.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

But, but, I thought BJ penn was a great guy? I'm shocked...SHOCKED! that he'd do something like this.


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

The title of this thread should be: "Penn rips on Sherk alleged steroid use AGAIN"

He has been sorta an a**hole lately, hey I might just change who I'm rooting for now!


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## Pyros (Apr 16, 2008)

That's why I hope Sherk pounds his face in, among other things.


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## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

Man I'm a huge Penn fan and don't like Sherk that much but I have to admit Penn is being a dick for no reason. Part of me wants him to get smashed by Sherk, but I'll still be rooting for Penn :sign04:


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## kamikaze145 (Oct 3, 2006)

Wow, I am really sick of threads like this. This is stupid, BJ doesnt like Sherk and he is saying a bunch of stuff about his alleged steroid use and he is really being a dick about it. Same thing that has been going on for a while now. I am just ready for this fight to happen so we can talk about the fight, and not the pre-fight talk.


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## peAk (Feb 20, 2008)

again guys....
it's just hype to get people to watch the fight.

people love to see grudge matches. BJ is just selling the fight.

Is he going overboard? probably. ...but how many people are psyched to see this fight? even more so in the past few weeks and that is because of all the trash talking Penn is doing.

I promise if BJ would have approached this fight and not said anything negative about Sherk you wouldn't have 15 new BJ/Sherk threads everyday like there is.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

What the? he did steroids? and BJ penn is calling him out :O

This is new and original (like my response)


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

It would have been alot more classy if BJ had stated his point of view without interupting Sherk and making direct statements to Sherk. He could have made his point without being so condescending.

If he had just politley said " I wan't to be a good example for the kids. I want to demonstrate that you do not need steroids to be the best," I don't think you would be as upset.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Damone said:


> But, but, I thought BJ penn was a great guy? I'm shocked...SHOCKED! that he'd do something like this.


He is doing a PSA though. :thumb02:


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## Braveheart (Oct 11, 2006)

kamikaze145 said:


> Wow, I am really sick of threads like this. This is stupid, BJ doesnt like Sherk and he is saying a bunch of stuff about his alleged steroid use and he is really being a dick about it. Same thing that has been going on for a while now. I am just ready for this fight to happen so we can talk about the fight, and not the pre-fight talk.


Man your sig kills me. Did Marcus just came back from vacation (on the sun??) when he took that pic. Thats just way too much tan (perhaps its from all that green toxic glow radiation). I know some guido club kids here in New York that abuse tanning salons and dont even look like that.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

He's Marcus freakin' Davis, he can look like Hulk Hogan if he wants to.

Oh, and I can't wait till Sherk puts his fist through Penn's head.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

you know i am beginning to really regret betting on bj for this. He is starting to sound like he's afraid of Sherk or something and I don't want to lose all my damn points just cause bj couldnt get his head straight!!! :angry01:


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## Synyster (May 28, 2007)

So lets say your an MMA fighter and someone is regarded as being one of the best in the world & he fails a drug test for Performance Enhancing drugs you wouldn't be pissed, let alone non-forgiving. I know Sherk said he did nothing wrong but so did Bonds, & alot of you believe him. My feelings are the same as Penn's, Sherk most likely used a Enhancement drugs which would give him the edge which he must feel he's lacking without them.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Synyster said:


> So lets say your an MMA fighter and someone is regarded as being one of the best in the world & he fails a drug test for Performance Enhancing drugs you wouldn't be pissed, let alone non-forgiving. I know Sherk said he did nothing wrong but so did Bonds, & alot of you believe him. My feelings are the same as Penn's, Sherk most likely used a Enhancement drugs which would give him the edge which he must feel he's lacking without them.


...pissed? what does BJ have to be pissed about? Sherk tested positive almost a year ago, and it wasn't against BJ. In fact, Sherk has tested NEGATIVE in his recent test during training lead-up which pretty much negatves any possibility of gaining a juice advantage for this fight (and he's going to be tested right before the fight again, just in case).
So BJ really DOESNT have anything to complain about. He's just harassing Sherk.


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## kamikaze145 (Oct 3, 2006)

Braveheart said:


> Man your sig kills me. Did Marcus just came back from vacation (on the sun??) when he took that pic. Thats just way too much tan (perhaps its from all that green toxic glow radiation). I know some guido club kids here in New York that abuse tanning salons and dont even look like that.


lol I dont know, maybe its one of those rub on tans.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

kamikaze145 said:


> lol I dont know, maybe its one of those rub on tans.


He looks flushed and pumped from a workout or fight.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

BJ has always been an ass, it's not like this is anything new. This should make for an excellent fight, I just wonder if BJ will offer to taste test Sherks piss if he wins to double check?


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

cdtcpl said:


> BJ has always been an ass, it's not like this is anything new. This should make for an excellent fight, I just wonder if BJ will offer to taste test Sherks piss if he wins to double check?


ROFL! :thumb02:


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

If Sherk does win, BJ will blame it on the steroids and his fans will agree.


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

Sherk should have asked BJ if he was going to be lighting up any joints or eating any quarter pounders with cheese pre-fight


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## HaVoK (Dec 31, 2006)

Penn isnt too bright. He acts like a child.


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## dblock (Jul 24, 2007)

I'd much rather BJ win than the Juicer. Maybe BJ's an immature dick, but at least he isn't boring. Last thing I need is another champion taking his opponent to the mat and punching him in the kidney for 25 F***ing minutes. To quote Dana White, it's like watch two turtles F***.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

mma17 said:


> Why would they have suspended him for six months if he was innocent?


Why would they reduce his suspension from 1 year to 6 months if they didn't believe at least some of his arguments?


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

kds13 said:


> Why would they reduce his suspension from 1 year to 6 months if they didn't believe at least some of his arguments?


They want him to finally leave them alone. LOL


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

SlaveTrade said:


> They want him to finally leave them alone. LOL


:laugh: That could be VERY true.


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## Green Scape (Nov 15, 2006)

SlaveTrade said:


> They want him to finally leave them alone. LOL


 
LOL this made me a laugh for like 5 mins.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Not to chime in as the sole voice of sanity here, but it IS still possible the test was a false positive and there are a few different reasons why this might be. 
Quest Diagnostics (the company who did their testing) is far from infallible, Sherk has never failed another test, and the CSAC is under no real obligation to consider the possibility that they were wrong. They just kinda do what they want, which is kinda messed up imho.

Sherk's continued denials are, imho, exactly what someone who genuinely believed they were innocent would do, also. 

I'm not saying he IS innocent, but if he thinks he is, and if an interviewer asks him about it (like happened here and a bunch of other places) why shouldn't he continue to protest his innocence?


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

mma17 said:


> Why would they have suspended him for six months if he was innocent?


Because the CSAC is not a legal body, and does not require a legal standard of evidence to suspend or fine someone. There is no requirement for evidence to convince one "beyond a reasonable doubt", and there is no jury. 

It's just a bunch of politico-doctors doing what they want to. Halving a suspension is a nice compromise that mollifies the victim while the commission gets to avoid admitting they were wrong.


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## Deftsound (Jan 1, 2008)

do i need to resurrect my bj penn is a deuche thread again?


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## mma17 (Jun 4, 2007)

HexRei said:


> Because the CSAC is not a legal body, and does not require a legal standard of evidence to suspend or fine someone. There is no requirement for evidence to convince one "beyond a reasonable doubt", and there is no jury.
> 
> It's just a bunch of politico-doctors doing what they want to. Halving a suspension is a nice compromise that mollifies the victim while the commission gets to avoid admitting they were wrong.


Huh, I didn't know they weren't a legal body. That's seems like an injustice to just suspend someone w/o a jury. I wouldn't fight in California again if I was Sherk either. Oh well, this will be my last post about Sherk and 'roids for 'this instance'.


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## Green Scape (Nov 15, 2006)

I don't know too much about it cuz I dun listen to it much :sarcastic06: but my girl works at City Hall and when they hold public hearings she says they make it so much harder than they need to. A lot of them have been on the commision more than a decade or two and they've really lost interest as far as caring and they can be very biased and PROTECTIVE of eachother. It's hard for you to speak long unless it favors their argument, like completely "shit-don't-stink" classless interruptions. I know it's apples and oranges but the way Sherk is reacting to this I kinda picture Sherk standing in front of a similar group of people that have known and worked with each other for years and have so many of these cases that just don't really give a shit, hell I don't think I can holdup my class after hearing the same excuses over and over for years but whatever kind of a different perspective.


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## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

*Another Penn Sherk Thread :dunno:*

Didn't want to start another Penn Sherk thread but I just saw the poll on MMAweekly.com between who's going to win and Sherk is winning the poll 64% to by 35% surprisingly. I voted for Penn and I'm not a Penn nut hugger by any means, but I would have thought he would be the favorite leading up to the fight or they would at least pretty much deadlocked.

Did a search on this site and didn't find any polls between Penn and Sherk so I figured I'd put one up here and compare it with the poll on the other site.


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## BJPen15 (Apr 15, 2008)

The fight is pretty even regardless of what either side may argue.


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## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

I believe they are pretty much even as well. I give Penn the advantage in the first two to maybe 3 rounds, but if it gets passed that mark I think Sherk will take control. But with MMA you never know till it's over :thumb02:


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## Green Scape (Nov 15, 2006)

I'm starting to lean towards Sherk, has he ever been subbed before? He's got a weird tiny t-rex arms and stocky body. His core strength is nuts I can see him powering out of sub attempts and BJ's rubber guard until he starts wearing down the guy. I'm starting to really agree with this "third round" logic.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

Green Scape said:


> I'm starting to lean towards Sherk, has he ever been subbed before? He's got a weird tiny t-rex arms and stocky body. His core strength is nuts I can see him powering out of sub attempts and BJ's rubber guard until he starts wearing down the guy. I'm starting to really agree with this "third round" logic.


He never lost a decision before til he ran into Hughes.
He also never got KO'd until he met GSP.
Just because its hasnt happened, doesnt mean it never will.

Its mma, anything can happen.


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## Green Scape (Nov 15, 2006)

attention said:


> He never lost a decision before til he ran into Hughes.
> He also never got KO'd until he met GSP.
> Just because its hasnt happened, doesnt mean it never will.
> 
> Its mma, anything can happen.


Never said it was impossible my friend, just pointing out his funny body and how he's avoided subs so far.

Has BJ ever been subbed before?


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## ash (Oct 15, 2006)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: lately, listening to BJ Penn talk, you would think that the guy is in 5th grade or something. The level of immaturity is almost staggering for a guy his age, really its to the point of being embarassing. Sure, sure, he's talented, whatever; he's an ass and he's pathetic on a personal level.

The other thing that gets me about listening to him talking about steroids is that to listen to him you would think he's some kind of molecular biologist or something. But the truth is that BJ has no idea what he is talking about. He understands the chemistry behind drug testing and metabolism about as much as he understands how to build build a rocket and get to the moon.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

Green Scape said:


> Never said it was impossible my friend, just pointing out his funny body and how he's avoided subs so far.
> 
> Has BJ ever been subbed before?


Peace, just pointing it out.

I consider Sherk like Hughes... cardio and wrestling wise. Their ground games are almost identical... maintain control, be patient, wait for openings... except that Hughes is stronger. 
I agree with the short arm sentiments... add sweat to that and it will be difficult to lock in the sub... but powerwise, BJ has been there and dealt with it.


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## Mufofamm (May 9, 2008)

BJPen15 said:


> The fight is pretty even regardless of what either side may argue.


no one knows how even this fight is until they are fighting. sherk may dominate BJ. BJ may dominate sherk. you don't know yet.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

attention said:


> Peace, just pointing it out.
> 
> I consider Sherk like Hughes... cardio and wrestling wise. Their ground games are almost identical... maintain control, be patient, wait for openings... except that Hughes is stronger.
> I agree with the short arm sentiments... add sweat to that and it will be difficult to lock in the sub... but powerwise, BJ has been there and dealt with it.


Sherk has way better stand-up than Hughes.

Also, I feel Sherk has found a weight class where he's very comfortable in.

I keep switching my predictions from close decision to TKO in the later rounds. Right now, though, I'll stick with decision, but wouldn't be shocked if a TKO happens, as BJ's cardio isn't hot shit or anything.


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## Ryan1522 (Oct 31, 2006)

Damone said:


> Sherk has way better stand-up than Hughes.
> 
> Also, I feel Sherk has found a weight class where he's very comfortable in.
> 
> I keep switching my predictions from close decision to TKO in the later rounds. Right now, though, I'll stick with decision, but wouldn't be shocked if a TKO happens, as BJ's cardio isn't hot shit or anything.


Finally someone with some logic. I've stated in other threads that it will be hard for BJ to take Sherk out in the first two rounds. If BJ doesn't take Sherk out in 2 rounds Sherk is going to take him down at will and will likely pound him out in one of the later rounds.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

I think it will be hard for BJ to get an armbar or something like that because of Sherks short arms. I don't really see him knocking him out either. I think BJ is going to win by RNC in the 2nd or 3rd round. If it gets past that he's going to have to hope that he did enough in the first 3 rounds to earn a decision because i think Sherk will win the 4th and 5th rounds if the fight isn't stopped before then.


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## Deftsound (Jan 1, 2008)

ash said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again: lately, listening to BJ Penn talk, you would think that the guy is in 5th grade or something. The level of immaturity is almost staggering for a guy his age, really its to the point of being embarassing. Sure, sure, he's talented, whatever; he's an ass and he's pathetic on a personal level.
> 
> The other thing that gets me about listening to him talking about steroids is that to listen to him you would think he's some kind of molecular biologist or something. But the truth is that BJ has no idea what he is talking about. He understands the chemistry behind drug testing and metabolism about as much as he understands how to build build a rocket and get to the moon.


:laugh: +1


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## IcemanCometh (Mar 9, 2007)

I think we need a Draw opition b/c this is a very close fight to call. I can see BJ out working Sherk in the striking dept. but if Sherk gets off enough slams and takedowns he may pull a GSP and win the damn thing by UD. Then again, Penn has such freakish flexibility he might pull off a hell of a sub. I just caught Penn/Stevenson and watching him hold Joe's arm while working a choke was freaky, to say the least. I am too up in the air on this one.


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

I think Sherk needs to let this one go. All he is doing is reminding people that he tested positive in the first place. Unless he has hard evidence that CSAC screwed up his tests there is no way he is going to win this. What he needs to do is go back into the octagon and start fighting again. People will forget after winning a few fights.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

8 More Days Holy Shit


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

*Sig & Avatar Bet: BJ Penn vs. Sean Sherk*

Any Sherk Fans, Supporters, Nuthuggers I challenge any and all comers to a sig and avatar bet for this fight

If you lose you must change your avatar to this










and your sig to this


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

slapshot said:


> Its more that little bit of stupidity where you act like BJJ in MMA has nothing to do with submissions, which is ludicrous and makes you look like a moron and a jerk.
> 
> Toss Brazilian out the door and call it (apple pie)Jiu-Jitsu its all the same where MMA is concerned, clearly your getting hung up on the grappling ect, as far as MMA goes his Jiu-Jitsu is good period. you're nit picking a point that even if your right proves nothing about sherk because as my "nuthugger" friend had the insight to point out he has faces other BJJ guys than just Franca so your just arguing to argue. Grappling is part of Jiu-Jitsu and Franca might be less than perfect at it, do you have a ******* point there? because my point was he dose have a submission game that's good and Sherk handled it well and he dose have a sub game because submitting Nate Diaz is a chore nobody in the UFC has been able to pull off. Some fighters focus on submissions its still Jiu-Jitsu and he is very capable obviously we do have his record to point that out.
> 
> ...



Dude, seriously, chill out. This was about your use of the phrase "top notch". You clearly missed that train. You called Franca's jitz top notch. I disagreed because that is what forums are for (discussion). BJJ has more to do with just subs (you seem to ignore that fact; that is why it was brought up). I do not seem ignorant for bringing that fact up. Not nearly as much so as you do for ignoring it. 

No one said Franca's jitz isn;t good, but to call it top notch is misleading and/or a misuse of the phrase top notch. I said his jitz is good, but completely different then BJ's. If you think BJ's is overrated go ask someone that has fought him how overrated it is. You might get a different opinion. I never said it was "otherwordly".

If Franca's sub game is so good why did he only attempt a few subs. Seems like the facts are escaping your arguments?

As for Hughes dropping weight, he doesn't need to. He seems to be able to handle himself at 170. Sice when does him not being able to drop 15 pounds unnecessarily have anything to do with his legitimacy as a fighter?

You think BJ has to be mad to be motivated is less then intelligent to say the least. He wasn't mad at Stevenson, Thomas, Uno, Gomi, Machida, Hughes (either time). Just Pulver and now Sherk. 

BJ's Jitz is nowhere near as overrated as Sherk's wrestling either.

AS for hte nuthugging comment, Aaronyman knows he is a nuthugger (at least he is objective though). I know I am a nuthugger too. Those two facts are already out in the open. I also consider myself objective. I don't think this fight is clear cut, nor do I believe that BJ can't lose this fight. I just believe he is much more talented then Sherk. Probably not alone there either (Sherk and BJ fans will most likely admit that fact)


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

no responses....where is all that confidence in your boy?


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

I will take any sig bets as well


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

can we get a merged thread of this whole 'bj calls out sherk on steriods thing' so all the penn fans can go have a clusterfu#k somewhere that doesn't take up so many damn threads....?


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Damone said:


> He's Marcus freakin' Davis, he can look like Hulk Hogan if he wants to.
> 
> Oh, and I can't wait till Sherk puts his fist through Penn's head.


Can his arm even go all the way through.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

ash said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again: lately, listening to BJ Penn talk, you would think that the guy is in 5th grade or something. The level of immaturity is almost staggering for a guy his age, really its to the point of being embarassing. Sure, sure, he's talented, whatever; he's an ass and he's pathetic on a personal level.
> 
> The other thing that gets me about listening to him talking about steroids is that to listen to him you would think he's some kind of molecular biologist or something. But the truth is that BJ has no idea what he is talking about. He understands the chemistry behind drug testing and metabolism about as much as he understands how to build build a rocket and get to the moon.


Not everyone can be experts on sch irrelevant information you know. (irrelevant unless you use that is). I think BJ summed up his perspective quite well when he was actually being serious. When he was talking about how he is a fighter and not an athlete. And mentioned how steroids pervert the sport. That explains why he is so animated when it comes to this topic.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

This is THE thread for the continued discussion of all things Sherk and Penn. There has been way too many threads on this.


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

23 thread views and no challenges.....


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## Future_Champ (Jan 8, 2008)

the only reason people hate on BJ is because yall know he's gonna dominate sherk. trash talk is 50% of the game, and people who complain about that need a life. you're just jealous you cant be in his shoes. -BJ 1st round KO.-
and the reason bj has alot of fans tht talk about him alot might be because he deserves them, that brudda got game.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

Future_Champ said:


> the only reason people hate on BJ is because yall know he's gonna dominate sherk


That's not even remotely the reason. 
I think Sherk will beat him, but I wouldn't be surprised either way. I still think what Bj is saying is immature. :thumb02:


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

southpaw447 said:


> 23 thread views and no challenges.....


A. You put it in the wrong place since there is a Sig/Avy Bet Thread.

B. Only BJ fans are "sure" he'll win. Everyone else with reason says its going to be a war that could go either way.



Future_Champ said:


> the only reason people hate on BJ is because yall know he's gonna dominate sherk. *trash talk is 50% of the game*, and people who complain about that need a life. you're just jealous you cant be in his shoes. -BJ 1st round KO.-
> and the reason bj has alot of fans tht talk about him alot might be because he deserves them, that brudda got game.


How? Does it really help you in the ring to have called someone a cheater or does it come down to how well you fight?


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

I voted Penn by KO or TKO.

I'm can't see Penn getting a choke Sherks huge neck and Sherks arms are too stubby for an armbar or kimura or triangle.

I see Penn knocking him down with some big shots at the beginning of the round and then mounting him and throwing some shots and get the W


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## Future_Champ (Jan 8, 2008)

ok maybe dominate was too strong but i got confidence he'll pull it off. im not hating on sherk cause off the roid hype, but bj is on a dif level than him. i'll give sherk the punchers chance, but im no expert thats just my speculation.


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## Future_Champ (Jan 8, 2008)

no, everyone has their own way of dealing with going into a fight. thats just the ways he's doing it. you go into a fight with a dude like sherk and see how you act. im not trying to put bj on a golden pedestal or anything but i dont think he's being immature, he's just playing "his" game.


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## _LB_ (Jan 20, 2008)

1st blog http://www.combatlifestyle.com/words/gdetail.php?id=67
2nd blog http://www.combatlifestyle.com/words/gdetail.php?id=68
3rd blog http://www.combatlifestyle.com/words/gdetail.php?id=69

BJ's blog (written by mstracylee). Pretty good one on how his training is going. And a little about him and his family.

And here's the video from the UFC site on SHERK's, caveman training.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2g5ns_sean-sherk-caveman-training


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## CAPTAIN PEGLEG (Apr 19, 2007)

I see Penn winning by a sub, or Sherk by UD or SD


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> Dude, seriously, chill out. This was about your use of the phrase "top notch". You clearly missed that train. You called Franca's jitz top notch. *I disagreed because that is what forums are for* (discussion).


Dude seriously you're lame, missed the train>? your not even at the ******* station. Well at least you admit arguing just to argue because you're a tool.


ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> BJJ has more to do with just subs (you seem to ignore that fact; that is why it was brought up). I do not seem ignorant for bringing that fact up. Not nearly as much so as you do for ignoring it.


LOL, you dont read that well do you? I already stated that myself. so far nothing in your latest post has any validity or is even coherent to the context of the conversation... moving on. 



ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> No one said Franca's jitz isn;t good, but to call it top notch is misleading and/or a misuse of the phrase top notch. I said his jitz is good, but completely different then BJ's. If you think BJ's is overrated go ask someone that has fought him how overrated it is. You might get a different opinion. I never said it was "otherwordly".


:sarcastic12: about sums it up.


ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> If Franca's sub game is so good why did he only attempt a few subs. Seems like the facts are escaping your arguments?


because Sherk didn't leave him many opportunity's he felt he could take advantage of maybe? LOL, you think my opinion that sherk has good sub defense is wrong? oh yeah the Franca thing again, if thats all you have (seems like it as you cant stop talking out the side of your neck about him)then your making a much weaker case for Penn then I am for sherk (and pls try to keep it in perspective.)


ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> As for Hughes dropping weight, he doesn't need to. He seems to be able to handle himself at 170. Sice when does him not being able to drop 15 pounds unnecessarily have anything to do with his legitimacy as a fighter?


Once again your like George W. Bush (easily distracted from the topic) Stay with the group Timmy. 



ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> You think BJ has to be mad to be motivated is less then intelligent to say the least. He wasn't mad at Stevenson, Thomas, Uno, Gomi, Machida, Hughes (either time). Just Pulver and now Sherk.


Let me guess everyone's wrong but you right? now your just being a dink trolling my posts looking for anything you can attempt to use to discredit me because you're weak joe!
evil and darkness Joe!



ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> BJ's Jitz is nowhere near as overrated as Sherk's wrestling either.


Totally I mean Sherks wrestling is just so overrated. 
:sarcastic02:Like I said I think sherk will neutralize BJ's Jiu-Jitsu



ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> AS for hte nuthugging comment, Aaronyman knows he is a nuthugger (at least he is objective though). I know I am a nuthugger too. Those two facts are already out in the open. I also consider myself objective. I don't think this fight is clear cut, nor do I believe that BJ can't lose this fight. I just believe he is much more talented then Sherk. Probably not alone there either (Sherk and BJ fans will most likely admit that fact)





ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> I know I am a nuthugger too.I also consider myself objective.


:confused03: Hold up Joe!
Well one thing is for sure we'll find out, styles make fights and IMO this fight looks bad for Penn.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

slapshot said:


> because Sherk didn't leave him many opportunity's he felt he could take advantage of maybe? LOL, you think my opinion that sherk has good sub defense is wrong? oh yeah the Franca thing again, if thats all you have (seems like it as you cant stop talking out the side of your neck about him)then your making a much weaker case for Penn then I am for sherk (and pls try to keep it in perspective.)


Sherk left him plenty of opportunities...but that is the difference between a "top notch" BJJ practitioner and Franca. A "top notch" BJJ guy would make his own opportunities. That is what this argument started out about and that is what I have keep hammering away at. You seem to be the one off topic there "Joe". :confused02:

All this other crap you bring up are futile attempts to discredit me by bring up inane points and/or comments I have made. None of which have anything to do with your blatant mischaracterization of Franca's jitz being "top notch". 

Sherk's wrestling is solid, but not great. Everytime he faced a wrestler (that was at least decent) he got beat handily. That is the problem with Sherk, we don't really know how good he is based on his competition. The best fighters he has faced he lost to. He beat Florian and Franca, but at that time neither could be considered top 10 guys. Not saying BJ has done a lot recently but, at least he has done more then Sherk iin his career. I mean Pulver and Stevenson are just as good as Florian and Franca were at the time they fought Sherk. Please don't mention Manny or Karo either. Those fights were way before either of those guys were any good at MMA.

Please stop making trivial statment about me. You just make yourself sound immature. Id you can't have an adult conversation with me about this subject there is no need for you to respond.


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## Mufofamm (May 9, 2008)

why is "huge slam" one of the options on the poll? that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard. when was the last time sherk KO'd someone by slamming them? lol. and when was the last time BJ was KO'd by a slam? wait, when was the last time BJ was KO'd by anything? oh yeah... never. might as well put "BJ by flying triangle" as one of the options too.


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

Mufofamm said:


> why is "huge slam" one of the options on the poll? that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard. when was the last time sherk KO'd someone by slamming them? lol. and when was the last time BJ was KO'd by a slam? wait, when was the last time BJ was KO'd by anything? oh yeah... never. might as well put "BJ by flying triangle" as one of the options too.


I wouldnt be surprised if he knocked the wind out of him with a slam.. seeing as there isnt much wind to knock out of BJ.


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## mma17 (Jun 4, 2007)

Mufofamm said:


> why is "huge slam" one of the options on the poll? that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard. when was the last time sherk KO'd someone by slamming them? lol. and when was the last time BJ was KO'd by a slam? wait, when was the last time BJ was KO'd by anything? oh yeah... never. might as well put "BJ by flying triangle" as one of the options too.


lol. You're funny.


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

mjbish23 said:


> I think it will be hard for BJ to get an armbar or something like that because of Sherks short arms. I don't really see him knocking him out either. I think BJ is going to win by RNC in the 2nd or 3rd round. If it gets past that he's going to have to hope that he did enough in the first 3 rounds to earn a decision because i think Sherk will win the 4th and 5th rounds if the fight isn't stopped before then.


Exactly my thoughts. BJ has never armbarred anyone. Sherk has never been subbed, and his short arms and careful and methodical GnP make it almost impossible to get an armbar. The only way for BJ Penn to win is to get a RNC before round four or a very lucky punch.


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## piratedanger (Sep 16, 2007)

A good point brought up on another forum was that if Sherk's "natural" levels of nanodrone were that high and he never was juicing then why aren't his levels that high now?


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## joey__stalin (Dec 31, 2006)

I really don't see Penn shooting in for a takedown. I think he'd probably focus on trying to catch Sherk with a punch to take him down or end up on top when Sherk tries to take Penn down when they are against the cage.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

piratedanger said:


> A good point brought up on another forum was that if Sherk's "natural" levels of nanodrone were that high and he never was juicing then why aren't his levels that high now?


Research has shown that intense exercise plus certain legal supplements (such as creatine) can create elevated nandrolone levels. Perhaps he switched supplements or altered his workout regimen- and Sherk's workout regimen is some of the most insane I've ever seen, it makes randy's or tito's look kind of laid back.

He was at about 12ml, and normally athletes don't exceed 6ml. But see Carina Damm, who just tested positive a day or two ago, at 20ml, considerably higher. Nandrolone is also known for high false positive results.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

slapshot said:


> LOL at all the BJ's being given to BJ in this thread. Well I don think BJ's game is better off his back than Sherks top game, sorry I just dont think Jenns or Joe for that matter are on the same level as Sherk/penn or any indication of how well Sherk will do and I think using old fights at another weight class with MMA math is just about as ridicules to boot.
> 
> Guess ill give BJ the slight advantage in striking but it is slight and I still say the odds BJ KO's Sherk are next to zip-o-la at one point I didn't care who won this fight I was just stoked to see it go down but after seeing how many faces are permanently affixed to BJ's ass from this forum Ill be pulling for Sherk all the way.


So I followed Slapshot's argument back to the beginning, because I wanted to see if the place he came from initially made some sort of sense. (since his later points made absolutely none)

You honestly believe that there is only a slight difference in the striking? Sherk has knocked out who that would make you believe that?

BJ decimated Din Thomas and Caol Uno, both guys who everybody respected standing up and who everybody expected to outstrike him. If Sherk fought either of those guys, I don't think he would stand with them, and I don't think he would plan to have any sort of advantage in the standup. (because both Uno and Thomas have better standup than he does)

My point here is that BJ, unlike Sherk, has actually shown his striking game, while Sherk's only UFC fight that ended standing up was when St. Pierre smashed his face in.

I hardly think that there's any evidence that Sherk can strike. Can he strike better than Matt Hughes? Yeah, but that just means he's not retarded. (I would like to congratulate Sherk on that)

As for the quality of Sherk's submission game and his ability to defend BJ's submissions. It remains to be seen that Sherk can defend a world champion on the ground. He beat a BJJ blackbelt, but you have to understand that there's a difference between being a blackbelt and being a world champion.

Saying that Hermes Franca is comparable to BJ Penn in Jiu-Jitsu is like saying that Kenny Florian is comparable to Marcelo Garcia.

Does KenFlo have great jiu-jitsu? Absolutely.

Would he last five minutes on the mat with Marcelo? Hell no.

BJ is the same way. His jiu-jitsu is incredible and while I don't honestly believe it's as good as Marcelo's, you have to remember that this guy submitted Gomi, Hughes, Pulver and Ludwig. While I don't believe that those guys are all necessarily at the same level that Sherk is, I don't think that if BJ catches Sherk in any of the submissions he caught on Hughes in their first fight or their second, Sherk won't be able to muscle out like Hughes did. And if BJ takes Sherk's back I think this fight is over.

I do think that Sherk's wrestling game is both credible and impressive, but he has not proven that he can beat a BJJ world champion. If we were talking about a 155 pound Jeff Monson, I would talk about his game differently. If we were talking about a guy who won ADCC (even just won a couple of matches against great opposition), I'd talk about his game differently.

Still, I don't think he's done that and, while Franca's jiu-jitsu is very good, it's not incredible by pure grappling standards, while BJ's is.

As far as how overrated Sherk's wrestling is, I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think he's definitely getting good credit, and appropriate credit, as a wrestler. But I don't think that it's right that people talk about his wrestling the way they talk about Coleman's wrestling, or Randleman's wrestling or Couture's wrestling.

Just like there's a difference between a great wrestler (which Sherk most definitely is) and an NCAA champion wrestler.

I think people forget how much his conditioning and his build plays a roll in his wrestling. He deserves credit for those things, but the majority of his ability to control guys comes from his strength as much as it does his wrestling background.

It's not fair to compare Sherk's wrestling to champion wrestlers for the same reason it's not fair to compare any BJJ blackbelt's jiu-jitsu to BJ's, because we're talking about two totally different tiers, two totally different levels of competition.

Hopefully, my points are clear.

By the way, Slapshot, don't call my arguments stupid.


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

IronMan said:


> So I followed Slapshot's argument back to the beginning, because I wanted to see if the place he came from initially made some sort of sense. (since his later points made absolutely none)
> 
> You honestly believe that there is only a slight difference in the striking? Sherk has knocked out who that would make you believe that?
> 
> ...


Burned.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

AndyHI said:


> exactly. I see no reason why BJ needs to take Sherk down. Frankly, who cares if he does or doesn't. Sherk's gonna be punished on the feet and on the ground. If Sherk takes down BJ, he's gonna get submitted, or reversed and pounded. It looks like a no win situation for Sean Sherk.


Penn can defend Sherk's takedowns. And even if he doesn't he's OK on his back. Sherk will bring it, but I think Penn can finish him.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

> Does KenFlo have great jiu-jitsu? Absolutely.
> 
> Would he last five minutes on the mat with Marcelo? Hell no.


In an MMA setting, he would.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

southpaw447 said:


> Burned.


Is that even necessary?


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## piratedanger (Sep 16, 2007)

HexRei said:


> Research has shown that intense exercise plus certain legal supplements (such as creatine) can create elevated nandrolone levels. Perhaps he switched supplements or altered his workout regimen- and Sherk's workout regimen is some of the most insane I've ever seen, it makes randy's or tito's look kind of laid back.
> 
> He was at about 12ml, and normally athletes don't exceed 6ml. But see Carina Damm, who just tested positive a day or two ago, at 20ml, considerably higher. Nandrolone is also known for high false positive results.



So you're going to assume Sherk changed his supplement intake and that is why his levels are lower now?
Are you also assuming that girl was clean and cheated?


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

Rated said:


> Is that even necessary?


^^^is that?

Maybe it wasn't but was commenting on an unnecessary comment necessary?


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

southpaw447 said:


> ^^^is that?
> 
> Maybe it wasn't but was commenting on an unnecessary comment necessary?


Sure, I'm not contributing to the discussion, I'll admit it. But I just felt that was such an ass thing to do. Whatever man.

I'm not going to reply back after this, so PM me if you got a problem. I just really thought that was uncalled for.


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## piratedanger (Sep 16, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Just like there's a difference between a great wrestler (which Sherk most definitely is) and an NCAA champion wrestler.
> 
> it's not fair to compare any BJJ blackbelt's jiu-jitsu to BJ's, because we're talking about two totally different tiers, two totally different levels of competition.stupid.


Sean is comparable to NCAA champions because he nearly was one and did very well in college wrestling. So its comparable.

Also, BJ is a BJJ black belt and also won Mundial World Championships. So he is VERY comparable to any BJJ black belt, he is one and a world champion.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Damone said:


> In an MMA setting, he would.


Really? You actually believe that if you put KenFlo on his back and put Marcelo on top that that fight would go three minutes, or if you put Kenny in Marcelo's guard.

I can agree with saying that KenFlo is a better MMA fighter than Marcelo, because his striking is great, but I don't honestly believe that if that fight was on the ground, in any form or fashion, it would last for very long.

Still, as long as the analogy makes sense (and I think it did, since that wasn't the part you were arguing with), I'll stand by it.


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## piratedanger (Sep 16, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Really? You actually believe that if you put KenFlo on his back and put Marcelo on top that that fight would go three minutes, or if you put Kenny in Marcelo's guard.
> 
> I can agree with saying that KenFlo is a better MMA fighter than Marcelo, because his striking is great, but I don't honestly believe that if that fight was on the ground, in any form or fashion, it would last for very long.
> 
> Still, as long as the analogy makes sense (and I think it did, since that wasn't the part you were arguing with), I'll stand by it.



Well yes, Marcelo lost his first mma fight to a nobody.
Kenflo would hammer him.

The guy who TKOed Garcia is 4 - 4 lol.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

piratedanger said:


> Sean is comparable to NCAA champions because he nearly was one and did very well in college wrestling. So its comparable.
> 
> Also, BJ is a BJJ black belt and also won Mundial World Championships. So he is VERY comparable to any BJJ black belt, he is one and a world champion.


Ummm... my point was that BJ was a world champion. So I actually agree with you on that one, and you are basically saying what I said.

Sorry if that was confusing, I mean that *Franca's* (and KenFlo's and Diaz's) BJJ is not comparable to BJ. If there was confusion over that, that's the simple version.

As far as Sean's status, I still don't think he's comparable to Koscheck or Couture or Coleman. He wasn't an NCAA champion, that's my point. If you want to say his wrestling is *almost* as good as those guys, then I'd be more forgiving on that. That's not the point I was making.

Again, if you want to take this a step further, I recently heard Sherk's wrestling compared to Matt Lindland and Dan Henderson. That's another huge jump, from NCAA to Olympic status.

You're entitled to disagree with my point. Still, if he's *almost* an NCAA champion then you have to qualify his statement by saying he's *almost* as good as Couture or Coleman. (I won't even bring Randleman or Kerr into this, because then we're in Collegiate legend land, and I'd rather not go there)

My point is that while his wrestling is very, very good, it's not the best, and his athleticism (probably the most significant factor in Sherk's game) plays a huge roll in the amount of credit guys give to his wrestling.

Again, I'm not going to say Sherk's not a great wrestler. I'm not going to say he's not *almost* as good as the NCAA champs I mentioned. That depends on your definition of almost.

Still, whatever way you slice it, you need to qualify your definition with that *almost*, and that's totally different than just saying "Sherk's wrestling is as good as Couture/Coleman/Koscheck's."


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## piratedanger (Sep 16, 2007)

Ohhh ok, I just misunderstood, we agree.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

piratedanger said:


> Well yes, Marcelo lost his first mma fight to a nobody.
> Kenflo would hammer him.
> 
> The guy who TKOed Garcia is 4 - 4 lol.


Their jiu-jitsu games are not comparable. Like I said earlier: Marcelo's striking sucks, and he'd lose to KenFlo in an MMA fight, but if it hit the floor, Marcelo would submit him like he was a drunk 12 year old.


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## piratedanger (Sep 16, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Their jiu-jitsu games are not comparable. Like I said earlier: Marcelo's striking sucks, and he'd lose to KenFlo in an MMA fight, but if it hit the floor, Marcelo would submit him like he was a drunk 12 year old.


The problem comes in with being hit.
Even on the ground in an MMA fight Marcelo would lose.

Doing BJJ in competition (no striking whatsoever) and doing it in MMA are too different. Marcelo has never had to do it while being hit, on the ground that is completely different.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

> Really? You actually believe that if you put KenFlo on his back and put Marcelo on top that that fight would go three minutes, or if you put Kenny in Marcelo's guard.
> 
> I can agree with saying that KenFlo is a better MMA fighter than Marcelo, because his striking is great, but I don't honestly believe that if that fight was on the ground, in any form or fashion, it would last for very long.
> 
> Still, as long as the analogy makes sense (and I think it did, since that wasn't the part you were arguing with), I'll stand by it.


MMA is totally different than just straight up grappling. Roberto Traven was a great pure grappler, yet Frank Mir subbed him in an MMA fight. Once strikes are thrown in, it's different. I have no doubt that Kenny would hang with Garcia on the ground in an MMA fight, since Kenny is an experienced fighter and Garcia isn't. Kenny would elbow Garcia so many times, and Garcia wouldn't really know what to do, since he hasn't fought in a cage or with elbows.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

piratedanger said:


> So you're going to assume Sherk changed his supplement intake and that is why his levels are lower now?
> Are you also assuming that girl was clean and cheated?


Just bringing up some potential explanations  

Honestly I think Damm used them and I think there is a good chance Sherk did. But his is close enough to the cutoff that articles likes this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandrolone



> Urine analysis as a method of detecting nandrolone abuse has recently become somewhat controversial, following studies by the University of Aberdeen showing that the metabolite product can also show up in urine in quantities above the upper limit from a combination of high-protein diets utilising the legal nutritional supplement creatine and hard cardiovascular exercise. The reason for this unexpected result has not been determined. Another possible (though unlikely) reason for a false positive result is the consumption of beef from cattle treated with steroids including nandrolone (used in overturning the verdict against the bobsleigh racer, Lenny Paul). Heavy consumption of the essential amino acid lysine (as indicated in the treatment of cold sores) has also shown false positives in some and was cited by American Shotputter C.J. Hunter as the reason for his positive test, though in 2004 he admitted to a federal grand jury that he had injected Nandrolone. A final possible cause of incorrect urine test results is the presence of metabolites from other anabolic steroids, though modern urinalysis can determine the exact steroid used by analyzing the ratio of the two remaining Nandrolone metabolites. As a result of the numerous overturned verdicts, the testing procedure was reviewed by UK Sport in 2000.


Make me believe there is a possibility of a scenario in which neither he, the testing agency, or the CSAC is really at fault, it's a matter of inadequate research data. I have to admit I have some reservations about Quest Diagnostics as well. They are not immune to mistakes.


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## piratedanger (Sep 16, 2007)

HexRei said:


> Just bringing up some potential explanations
> 
> Honestly I think Damm used them and I think there is a good chance Sherk did. But his is close enough to the cutoff that articles likes this
> 
> ...



I am aware the tests aren't perfect.
But you piss before and after a fight, the odds two different lab tests with urine from two different times are both going to come back with false results are pretty slim.

I am all for blood testing the week or so before the fight and a week or so after, much more practical and reliable.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

piratedanger said:


> The problem comes in with being hit.
> Even on the ground in an MMA fight Marcelo would lose.
> 
> Doing BJJ in competition (no striking whatsoever) and doing it in MMA are too different. Marcelo has never had to do it while being hit, on the ground that is completely different.





Damone said:


> MMA is totally different than just straight up grappling. Roberto Traven was a great pure grappler, yet Frank Mir subbed him in an MMA fight. Once strikes are thrown in, it's different. I have no doubt that Kenny would hang with Garcia on the ground in an MMA fight, since Kenny is an experienced fighter and Garcia isn't. Kenny would elbow Garcia so many times, and Garcia wouldn't really know what to do, since he hasn't fought in a cage or with elbows.


You're missing my point. I'm commenting on the quality of BJ's game, not on Marcelo's ability to take a punch in the face. We all know that Marcelo's game is not conducive to MMA right now, and that he'll need to fix stuff if he wants to get it that way.

The point I'm making is that BJ is a world champion grappler (like Marcelo), and that's a world beyond being just a blackbelt. That's not to dismiss the significance of the rank (it's definitely important), but being a world champion blackbelt is a totally different game.

Does that make more sense?



HexRei said:


> Just bringing up some potential explanations
> 
> Honestly I think Damm used them and I think there is a good chance Sherk did. But his is close enough to the cutoff that articles likes this
> 
> ...


The more I hear the argument about Nandrolone and the more I read about it and the way that the body creates it, I'm curious about how possible it is that Sherk's freakish workouts could have induced a higher level of creation.

I'm not a doctor, but I'd be really interested to see if it were possible to increase the body's production to that kind of level.

Part of what made me think about this was how much Carina Damm had in her body. (she, by the way, is clearly guilty) It makes me think that if Sherk was using he would have used considerably more (because he would need a considerably larger supplement to match his workout and the strain he puts on his body).

I am curious to hear an MD talk about the way that Nandrolone effects the body, how its produced and if there is something about Sherk's workout that he might have changed to result in increased production of the substance. Like I said, the more I read about it, the more I become convinced that that is a serious possibility.

Again, I'm fairly certain that none of us are MD's, and I'm interested to hear what a doctor might have to say about the possibility of an increase in the body's production of the substance. Obviously, mine's just an idea, and I want to learn more to figure it out.

I figure, the more I know about this stuff, the better off I am as a fighter, an analyst and a fan.

Very interesting stuff, Hex. Everything you've posted on this thread has been very helpful. (rep)


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

IronMan said:


> The more I hear the argument about Nandrolone and the more I read about it and the way that the body creates it, I'm curious about how possible it is that Sherk's freakish workouts could have induced a higher level of creation.
> 
> I'm not a doctor, but I'd be really interested to see if it were possible to increase the body's production to that kind of level.
> 
> ...


I never even thought about that. Now that you bring up that idea it really has me interested and I want to know if a workout like Sherk's can bring the levels up. :thumbsup:

His levels weren't even that high. Like you said it is obvious that Damm was using nandrolene and she had like 33 mg or whatever it was while Sherk only had around 10 I think. This means that Sherk couldn't have been juicing because he would have needed significantly more then what Damm was taking for it to be effective since he is bigger then her.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

piratedanger said:


> The problem comes in with being hit.
> Even on the ground in an MMA fight Marcelo would lose.
> 
> Doing BJJ in competition (no striking whatsoever) and doing it in MMA are too different. Marcelo has never had to do it while being hit, on the ground that is completely different.


Marcelo has been training MMA with American Top Team for a while now, and is definitely improving in that. And even with strikes on the ground Marcelo would handle 90% of fighters with his Bjj alone.


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## piratedanger (Sep 16, 2007)

wukkadb said:


> Marcelo has been training MMA with American Top Team for a while now, and is definitely improving in that. And even with strikes on the ground Marcelo would handle 90% of fighters with his Bjj alone.


Then why did he lose to a no name guy who is 4 - 4?
Where was his BJJ alone then?


Training for being hit, and being hit are two completely different things.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

piratedanger said:


> Then why did he lose to a no name guy who is 4 - 4?
> Where was his BJJ alone then?
> 
> 
> Training for being hit, and being hit are two completely different things.


He's learned from his mistake. People said the same thing about Jacare, when he dropped his first MMA fight. Patino's a better opponent, but you get my point.

We should really focus on the Sherk vs. Penn debate though. You can feel free to talk about Marcelo, but it was just an analogy.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

i'm starting to realize that alot of fans (some on this forum) fail to realize that MMA is not bjj, wrestling and striking....it's fighting. you can use elements from those arts in accomplishing your goal, but it's a fight. having a better bjj background doesn't instantly make you a better mma ground fighter...so many people fail to realize this...


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## IcemanCometh (Mar 9, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> i'm starting to realize that alot of fans (some on this forum) fail to realize that MMA is not bjj, wrestling and striking....it's fighting. you can use elements from those arts in accomplishing your goal, but it's a fight. having a better bjj background doesn't instantly make you a better mma ground fighter...so many people fail to realize this...


I totally agree and would point to Josh Barnett, a master of catch wresling to show how BJJ isn't the end all be all of ground games. I think superior wrestling can overcome bjj and sherk has a shot with his striking and ground game in this fight. I said it before in this thread I really think he can pull a GSP type upset of Penn.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

IcemanCometh said:


> I totally agree and would point to Josh Barnett, a master of catch wresling to show how BJJ isn't the end all be all of ground games. I think superior wrestling can overcome bjj and sherk has a shot with his striking and ground game in this fight. I said it before in this thread I really think he can pull a GSP type upset of Penn.


but also his bjj has improved so much recently....training w/ marcelo garcia and such


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

piratedanger said:


> Then why did he lose to a no name guy who is 4 - 4?
> Where was his BJJ alone then?


Uh did you watch the fight? Marcelo dominated him the first round then got caught early in the 2nd with a Superman punch and a couple more punches and the fight was stopped. It's pretty obvious his lack of striking on the feet was his downfall.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

piratedanger said:


> Then why did he lose to a no name guy who is 4 - 4?
> Where was his BJJ alone then?
> 
> 
> Training for being hit, and being hit are two completely different things.


You clearly have not watched that fight. Fight Finder can tell you wins and losses, but it can't give you an accurate depiction of how the fight went.


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## piratedanger (Sep 16, 2007)

kds13 said:


> You clearly have not watched that fight. Fight Finder can tell you wins and losses, but it can't give you an accurate depiction of how the fight went.


I did watch the fight, what was your point?


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## piratedanger (Sep 16, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> i'm starting to realize that alot of fans (some on this forum) fail to realize that MMA is not bjj, wrestling and striking....it's fighting. you can use elements from those arts in accomplishing your goal, but it's a fight. having a better bjj background doesn't instantly make you a better mma ground fighter...so many people fail to realize this...


Exactly.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> i'm starting to realize that alot of fans (some on this forum) fail to realize that MMA is not bjj, wrestling and striking....it's fighting. you can use elements from those arts in accomplishing your goal, but it's a fight. having a better bjj background doesn't instantly make you a better mma ground fighter...so many people fail to realize this...


Are you insinuating that BJ needs to prove that he knows how to fight on the ground? Or are you insinuating that Marcelo Garcia is not the best grappler in the world?

If it's the second one, then I should remind you that Marcelo's game has footlocks and it has advanced grappling skills. He's not the best grappler in MMA, and I never said he was. Again, I remind you that *it's an analogy.* Clearly alot of people missed that point.

If it's the first one, then you're just nuts. BJ doesn't need to prove that his jiu-jitsu game has translated to MMA any more than Nogueira does. I'm not saying that his BJJ background gives him magical superpowers where he can tap anybody out, but his grappling skills are phenomenal and, in my mind, their better than Sherk's.



IcemanCometh said:


> I totally agree and would point to Josh Barnett, a master of catch wresling to show how BJJ isn't the end all be all of ground games. I think superior wrestling can overcome bjj and sherk has a shot with his striking and ground game in this fight. I said it before in this thread I really think he can pull a GSP type upset of Penn.


You're entitled to your opinion about how the fight will go. I respect that. I don't agree with it, though, and I think that the status of the UFC titles right now shows that great BJJ translates better to mixed martial arts than wrestling does. I mean, 3 of the 4 champions (if we ignore the lightweight division) have BJJ blackbelts. None of those champions has a wrestling pedigree.

That said, I think that wrestlers are great fighters and get a huge advantage in that, as well as great grappling skills, they tend to be better conditioned than BJJ guys. I respect the conditioning and skills of wrestlers, I just don't think that's a valid argument.

As far as the great submission fighters coming from more than just BJJ, I think that Barnett is a valid exception to that understanding, and I think you're right to say that the BJJ background is not the be-all and the end-all in mixed martial arts. Even when Royce was around, he wasn't the only guy with submissions (Shamrock had them too, lest we forget).

My point is that BJ is a better grappler, not necessarily because of where he comes from, but because of the *quality* of his background. We're talking about one of the most prolific BJJ guys in the world, and if we were talking about a BJJ blackbelt, I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

Barnett is a great grappler, and so is Fedor. They're both proof that BJJ is not the only way to grapple, but I think it's also important to recognize that BJ is the better *submission fighter* in this matchup, and that we shouldn't limit his abilities simply to that cliche that everyone seems to be coming up with of "oh, well BJJ is everything."

It's true that BJJ isn't everything. We know, we know, we know.

My point is that BJ has finished more top guys on the ground than Sherk has, as well as, generally speaking, better fighters. This leads me to believe that his grappling is better.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

how did i insinuate anything? i made a point of mma and false fan perspective. how many times have we seen wrestlers with an understanding of bjj, shrug off sweeps and submissions and get the win....i know i've seen plenty. proving that having a bjj medal doesn't mean shit if your getting punched in the face badly and you can't adapt.....

i never even mentioned bj in my post...jeesh...enough already...you've already proven your nuthuggery blocks perception of reality


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

If you are ignoring lightweight division, who has the blackbelt? I didn't know Page/GSP had a blackbelt.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

I believe BJ is 100% the better grappler. He has much better control on the bottom than Sherk does, and has phenomenal top and back control. He's also get some really good takedowns (he took GSP down, remember Hughes couldn't even do that in their last two fights), and some of the best takedown defense. Sherk has no doubt the better wrestling but as far as submissions and well rounded grappling skills, BJ is better.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> how did i insinuate anything? i made a point of mma and false fan perspective. how many times have we seen wrestlers with an understanding of bjj, shrug off sweeps and submissions and get the win....i know i've seen plenty. proving that having a bjj medal doesn't mean shit if your getting punched in the face badly and you can't adapt.....
> 
> i never even mentioned bj in my post...jeesh...enough already...you've already proven your nuthuggery blocks perception of reality


Well, if you weren't talking about either of the two fighters that were mentioned on the thread, then you must not have been talking about anything at all.

Here are the facts on the Sean Sherk fight, just so that we're clear that I'm looking at this objectively, not hugging nuts because I think BJ is the better fighter. (for the record, I do think he's the better fighter, and a nice guy, despite all of the sh*t people have said on this thread)

Penn has fought 12 times in the UFC. Sherk has fought 8.

Penn's record is 8-3-1. Sherk's is 6-2.

Penn has never been finished. Sherk has been TKO'd once.

Here're the numbers that I care about:

At in the UFC, Penn has finished 7 fights. Sherk has finished 2.

Against top ten opponents, in any weight class, Penn has gone 2-2. Sherk is 0-2. (1-2 if you want to expand that to Nick Diaz, though I wouldn't)

In their UFC lightweight careers, Penn is 7-1-1. Sherk is 3-0, with no finishes.

Against the two opponents that the fighters share (Georges St. Pierre and Matt Hughes), Penn is 1-2, Sherk is 0-2. Both have a TKO. Penn's came more than a round later in a fight he was winning for most of the bout, Sherk's was a domination. Penn also, notably, has the only win against those two fighters.

Show me numbers that favor Sherk, and we'll talk. Right now, though, all you have is the way that you believe this matchup works out stylistically and, lets face it, as much as you might say "we've seen wrestlers with an understanding of jiu-jitsu dominate," you've seen top jiu-jitsu guys decimate those wrestlers just as often.

You're entitled to your opinion about the style matchups, but if you're going to call me a nuthugger, I'd appreciate it if you'd back that up with something.



Rated said:


> If you are ignoring lightweight division, who has the blackbelt? I didn't know Page/GSP had a blackbelt.


You're right. I miscounted. So 2 of 4 are blackbelts (GSP, from what I understand, is a brownbelt) and 0 DI wrestlers.

That's my bad, though. You are right, I miscounted.


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## SuzukS (Nov 11, 2006)

Chrisl972 said:


> BJ is without a doubt better in every aspect of MMA, *with the question of cardio*. The take downs are the only thing that Sherk might has an edge in besides that, and it doesn't matter, because BJ's TDD is WAY ahead of Sherks TD's.


I agree with you 100% there, Penn is pretty much superior in nearly every aspect of MMA - however his cardio is what makes me feel that he may not fair so well against Sherk. As we saw from Penn's last fight with Hughes, as soon as he gases (or gets injured, whatever) his BJJ goes right down, to the point where Hughes easily passed Penn's guard to finish him. If Sherk can handle Penn's initial onslaught (much like Hughes managed to for the first two rounds) then he has a high chance of beating Penn and even finishing him in the later rounds.

To me, the result of this fight will be decided on whether BJ Penn can finish Sherk within 2-3 rounds.


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## FunkYou (Apr 22, 2007)

SuzukS said:


> As we saw from Penn's last fight with Hughes, as soon as he gases (or gets injured, whatever) his BJJ goes right down, to the point where Hughes easily passed Penn's guard to finish him.


While I don't think anyone would disagree with you that his cardio sucks but using a fight where gets injured to demonstrate it doesn't exactly work. There is a big difference between seperating a rib and gassing due to poor cardio.


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## Mufofamm (May 9, 2008)

that would be very funny if bj didn't gas in this fight, but outclassed sherk for all 5 rounds. it's unlikely but it's not impossible. i hope it happens just to spite all the haters and naysayers. war penn


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Well, if you weren't talking about either of the two fighters that were mentioned on the thread, then you must not have been talking about anything at all.
> 
> Here are the facts on the Sean Sherk fight, just so that we're clear that I'm looking at this objectively, not hugging nuts because I think BJ is the better fighter. (for the record, I do think he's the better fighter, and a nice guy, despite all of the sh*t people have said on this thread)
> 
> ...


Well, you use the numbers that favour BJ, I'll use the numbers that favour Sherk.

Oh, BTW, Hughes finished BJ once:

Loss 10-4-1 Matt Hughes TKO (Strikes) UFC 63: Hughes vs. Penn 9/23/2006 3 3:53 170 lb For UFC Welterweight Championship

Overall record:

Penn: 12-4-1 (82 % wins)
Subs: 5
KO: 4
Total finishes: 9/12 (75%)
Has been finished once, never been submitted.

Sherk: 32-2-1 (91% wins)
Subs: 13
KO: 8
Total finishes: 21/32 (67%)
Has been finished once, never submitted.

The overall record is not better for BJ Penn than for Shrek. In fact, it shows that Shrek has a ton more experience, and has only lost to Hughes and GSP, as BJ did.

But BJ has also lost to Pulver in a decision and to Machida, not difficult as Machida is a LHW.

So I would say they are pretty even here.

As for the submission game, the only submission that BJ has pulled, aside from an arm triangle choke to Duane Ludwig, is the RNC (4 times). Sherk is very difficult to submit, nobody has done it in 35 matches. BJ's BJJ is very good, but he's not a magician that can pull any kind of sub in 90 secs like Mir, he hasn't armbarred anyone or gotten any kind of quick submission, ever. So a quick sub my BJ is out of the question (it could happen of course, but it is nearly impossible). Also, BJ hasn't KOed anyone since 2002. Shrek has been knocked out once, by GSP, nevertheless. So I can hardly see a KO by BJ, as Shrek chin is not precisely made of glass.

So, the way I see it, and looking at the records, BJ HAS to pull a RNC in before round 4, or by that time Sherk's superior cardio can make this one ugly for BJ.

All in all, it's very close. I picked a decision for Shrek, but it's a coin toss.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

valrond said:


> As for the submission game, the only submission that BJ has pulled, aside from an arm triangle choke to Duane Ludwig, is the RNC (4 times). Sherk is very difficult to submit, nobody has done it in 35 matches. BJ's BJJ is very good, but he's not a magician that can pull any kind of sub in 90 secs like Mir, he hasn't armbarred anyone or gotten any kind of quick submission, ever. So a quick sub my BJ is out of the question (it could happen of course, but it is nearly impossible). Also, BJ hasn't KOed anyone since 2002. Shrek has been knocked out once, by GSP, nevertheless. So I can hardly see a KO by BJ, as Shrek chin is not precisely made of glass.
> 
> So, the way I see it, and looking at the records, BJ HAS to pull a RNC in before round 4, or by that time Sherk's superior cardio can make this one ugly for BJ.
> 
> All in all, it's very close. I picked a decision for Shrek, but it's a coin toss.


There's no indication that BJ's cardio is in any way similar to the way it was when he was fighting at 170, or the unconditioned 155 back in the day, and there's a good indication the other way. (after all, he went three with Stevenson with almost no problem, but whatever, that's a legitimate doubt)

Your only real defense seems to be that Sherk has never been submitted. OK, fair enough. Sherk has never been submitted. Sherk has also never faced a Mundial champion.

The reason BJ finishes with the RNC is because his back control is good, it's because once he sinks those hooks in and latches on to his opponents back, he is comfortable and his legs are strong and flexible enough that even if his opponent knows enough jiu-jitsu to manage to get his back on the floor (and I'm not convinced that Sherk can do that with BJ back there) to scrap him off, he'll end up in mount and start pounding away.

This is really jiu-jitsu 101, but the fact is, BJ does it better than anyone else, and he knows how to control that back position.

We'll see how hard Sherk's chin is. Honestly, I'm going to go back to what I always do when people say that BJ can't finish this fight standing: Who did better against the best striker at 170 pounds? Who stood and traded with that guy for 3 rounds and had one of the judges score the fight in his favor? Who got smashed into the canvas?

The answers, in reverse order, are Sherk, Penn and, pretty obviously, Penn.

I think we'd all agree that Penn is the superior striker in this fight. You may not think that this fight will end standing up, but you should remember that BJ has serious power, and he always has. He's an incredibly technical striker, but I think that he's more than capable of TKOing Sherk.

You say Sherk's got a great chin, but he's not the Mark Hunt of the 155 pound division. He may be able to take a punch, but BJ will bring the hands all night if he has to, and I don't think it will take him much long than it took St. Pierre, because BJ delivered alot of punishment to GSP and, while he took some back, if BJ's conditioning and strength have stopped being aweful, as his last few fights seem to indicate, he's going to hit even harder than he did when he was fighting at 170.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

valrond said:


> ...
> The overall record is not better for BJ Penn than for Shrek. In fact, it shows that Shrek has a ton more experience
> ...


Here we go again... the notorious padded record...Im sorry, reference to his 'superior' numbers is one of my pet peeves.

IMHO, you get 'better' experience losing to a small sample of top tier fighters as opposed to beating tons of 'fair' fighters.

Which is why the prior quote used only the UFC exclusively... I might have included Pride in there too. It has been mentioned that this isn't Sherks own doing, that there were some tune up fights after he had a few brief hiatuses from the cage... given. It stands to reason that less weight be given to those bouts.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

IronMan said:


> There's no indication that BJ's cardio is in any way similar to the way it was when he was fighting at 170, or the unconditioned 155 back in the day, and there's a good indication the other way. (*after all, he went three with Stevenson with almost no problem, but whatever, that's a legitimate doubt*)


BJ went 1 and 1/2 Rounds with Stevenson...hardly 3. Why is it so wrong to question his cardio when he's fighting one of the most well-conditioned fighters in the world who has the ability to stretch this fight into Rounds 4 and 5?


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

kds13 said:


> BJ went 1 and 1/2 Rounds with Stevenson...hardly 3. Why is it so wrong to question his cardio when he's fighting one of the most well-conditioned fighters in the world who has the ability to stretch this fight into Rounds 4 and 5?


I'm not saying that it's wrong to question his cardio. It's a perfectly legitimate concern. (and I say that later in the post)

I'm saying that I don't think his cardio when he was getting fat enough to fight at 170 is hardly an adequate representation of his cardio now, and I think that most people would agree with me on that.

As far as Sherk being a more conditioned athlete, I don't think anyone expects BJ to have better conditioning than Sherk.

My point, really, is that if BJ comes in and has more cardio and strength than he did against Hughes, Sherk is going to have a serious problem. Hughes only just got out of those subs that BJ caught, and Sherk isn't as strong as Hughes. If BJ is stronger and has the muscle to work those submissions harder and longer, then I think that Sherk is in for a long night, and may very well spend some time playing defense while on top.

I also think that there's a high likelihood that BJ could pull of a sweep on Sherk and end up in mount, if Sherk does something stupid and tries to stand up to break out of the high guard. (BJ could set up a triangle/armbar/omoplata from that position, but he could also take a sweep)

It just seems like there are alot of ways for BJ to beat Sherk, and not very many ways for Sherk to win this fight.


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

kds13 said:


> BJ went 1 and 1/2 Rounds with Stevenson...hardly 3. Why is it so wrong to question his cardio when he's fighting one of the most well-conditioned fighters in the world who has the ability to stretch this fight into Rounds 4 and 5?


Because BJ fans just think BJ is better or as good as anyone in ANY aspect of the game. They just have to say that BJ's wrestling is also better than Sherk's. Also, BJ is not stronger than Sherk. 

Oh, and if Serra comes down to LW, then he's better than Sherk and BJ, because using the only thing that BJ fans are using as measuring tool (the fights vs Hughes and GSP), Serra is 1-1, with the fastest win by afar.

Please, just be serious, this fight is as even as it can be. BJ is not a flashy submitter, he needs to take his take and set up the submission really well. Sherk is very adept at avoiding submissions. It will cost BJ a lot to submit Shrek. That's my point, and no data can go against that.

BTW, for being a "world champ", he only fast submission that BJ has is against Dwayne Ludwig...

Oh, and finally, i forgot to say this before:

[/quote=IronMan]
Here are the facts on the Sean Sherk fight, just so that we're clear that I'm looking at this objectively, not hugging nuts because I think BJ is the better fighter. (for the record, I do think he's the better fighter, and a nice guy, despite all of the sh*t people have said on this thread)
[/quote]

The only one talking sh*t is that crybaby, inmmature, teenager-acting "prodigy" called BJ Penn. Just listen at his words man, you can't defend what we says without being a complete BJ fan.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

yeah, listen at them words!  j/k man i agree


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## MetalMunkey (Oct 14, 2006)

A look at Penn-Sherk:

Striking - Sherk's boxing is quick and technical and he uses it effectively to setup his takedowns. But, really that's all he uses it for. BJ technical with more power. His work with Jason Parillo has also added some better defense and he's worked well in standing in the pocket and striking like he did with Joe. But I'm not sure standing in the pocket is the best idea against Sherk because as soon as BJ plants his feet Sherk will look for the takedown. I'm gonna give BJ the edge striking, he was a good striker before and now I think he is much better. 

Wrestling - Sherk has good setups and powerful slams, good at controlling position. BJ good defense and scrambles for position well, also has pretty good takedowns as well. I know I'll take heat here but there's no edge here. Both fighters bring interesting skills in this area and almost cancel each other out.

Submissions - Sherk has good top control, and submission defense. BJ has exceptional positioning and transitions, dangerous when on top or has his opponents back. Edge is BJ, obviously. Both fighters are strongest on top but BJ is more dangerous from any position.

The Question marks: Cardio has to go to Sherk, I think he sold his soul to the devil so that he would never ever get tired. BJ's cardio has always been a huge question mark. He's been working on improving it, I hope he is able to answers all the doubters. Strength is a huge question mark for me. Sherk is a freaking beast but there's no way he ket up his muscle that he had when he was a WW. BJ on the other hand was in horrible shape as a WW and was still competitive with the 2 strongest fighters in that division. Now I imagine he's stronger and in better shape while Sherk had to cut into his muscle to make the weight.

I know it seems as if I think BJ will smoke Sherk because that's far from the truth. This match is as even as I've ever seen one in the UFC. But my BJ loving heart calls for a TKO in the third.

Perfect BJ hater post. As much as I hate blind nuthuggers, blind haters are just as bad.



valrond said:


> Because BJ fans just think BJ is better or as good as anyone in ANY aspect of the game. They just have to say that BJ's wrestling is also better than Sherk's. Also, BJ is not stronger than Sherk.


Not true, GSP, Hughes, and Sherk are all better pure wrestlers than BJ. He just has a better melding of styles then they do.


> Oh, and if Serra comes down to LW, then he's better than Sherk and BJ, because using the only thing that BJ fans are using as measuring tool (the fights vs Hughes and GSP), Serra is 1-1, with the fastest win by afar.


Why is that so ludicrous??? Serra already had a competitive match with BJ that some were not so sure BJ won. 


> Please, just be serious, this fight is as even as it can be. .


Prolly the only truth in this post


> BJ is not a flashy submitter, he needs to take his take and set up the submission really well. Sherk is very adept at avoiding submissions. It will cost BJ a lot to submit Shrek. That's my point, and no data can go against that.
> BTW, for being a "world champ", he only fast submission that BJ has is against Dwayne Ludwig...


Why does someon have to have flashy submissions to be considered good at them?? Tapping out Hughes and Stevenson are pretty impressive stats to me.


> Oh, and finally, i forgot to say this before:
> 
> [.quote=IronMan]
> Here are the facts on the Sean Sherk fight, just so that we're clear that I'm looking at this objectively, not hugging nuts because I think BJ is the better fighter. (for the record, I do think he's the better fighter, and a nice guy, despite all of the sh*t people have said on this thread)
> ...


Wow, when will people stop getting so hung up on what fighters say. Honestly what has BJ said that's so horrible?? That he think s Sherk juiced, alot of people do. "Sean Sherk you're dead," hype for the fight. That he's going to beat him, OMG a fighter think s he can beat someone!!! "But, but, he AlWAYS says this stuff because interviewers NEVER ask him over and over again. IMO, "Teenage-acting" are the people who get hung up on this BS.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

C'mon man.



valrond said:


> Because BJ fans just think BJ is better or as good as anyone in ANY aspect of the game. They just have to say that BJ's wrestling is also better than Sherk's. Also, BJ is not stronger than Sherk.


Where did anyone say that BJ needs to have better wrestling than Sherk?

Where did anyone say that BJ was stronger than Sherk?

No one cares about those things. If you do, then you're forgetting how BJ has beaten fighters who are stronger and better wrestlers than him. (in fact, most guys are one or both of those things)



> Oh, and if Serra comes down to LW, then he's better than Sherk and BJ, because using the only thing that BJ fans are using as measuring tool (the fights vs Hughes and GSP), Serra is 1-1, with the fastest win by afar.


This has already been mentioned, but BJ and Serra have already fought. That was a good fight, and the only really competitive match besides the Pulver fight that BJ had in his initial run at 155.

I'm talking about a Shared Opponent statistic. The dynamics are totally different if we're talking about Serra.

Then we're taking out Hughes, and just looking at how they matched up with GSP. And then we have to throw out the Shared Opponent statistic because Serra has the best performance and the second worse.

I'm not looking at one number. I threw out half a dozen.



> Please, just be serious, this fight is as even as it can be. BJ is not a flashy submitter, he needs to take his take and set up the submission really well. Sherk is very adept at avoiding submissions. It will cost BJ a lot to submit Shrek. That's my point, and no data can go against that.


Do you understand what it means to be a good submission fighter?

BJ is not a flashy submission fighter, you're right. But he's a very, very good submission fighter.

Nogueira isn't a flashy submission fighter either. Are you saying his BJJ is questionable?

That's a stupid point.

As for Sherk's submission defense: you guys are really starting to bore my by saying the same things that I've responded to again and again.

"Sherk's got good submission defense."

"He's never fought a submission fighter like Penn."

"Well, he beat Franca and Florian."

"And Franca and Florian aren't as good as Penn."

"Well, he's still got good submission defense."

And on and on until we all die of boredom.



> BTW, for being a "world champ", he only fast submission that BJ has is against Dwayne Ludwig...


You mean "In MMA, his only fast submission is against Duane Ludwig." (and please, spell the guy's name right; he knocked out Jens Pulver, he deserves that much)

BJ's submission skills are very, very good. If you're going to dispute that by saying "He doesn't submit people quickly" then look at Nogueira or Barnett. They don't submit guys quickly, but they're incredible submission fighters.



> Oh, and finally, i forgot to say this before:
> 
> The only one talking sh*t is that crybaby, inmmature, teenager-acting "prodigy" called BJ Penn. Just listen at his words man, you can't defend what we says without being a complete BJ fan.


Wow. That wasn't infantile at all.

I won't defend what BJ says in any way other than by saying that if you can't deal with smack talk, you don't have the balls to be a professional athlete.

I like BJ, I've met him, he's a good guy and he's very, very smart. Whatever you think of what he said, remember that, as a fighter, smack talk ss part of the world you live in, it's a part of the head game.

If Sherk chooses not to engage in that, that's fine, but BJ has been pushed to respond to the allegations about Sherk's steroid use, and he's said exactly what he thinks about it, as a fighter and as one of Sherk's opponents.

What do you want him to say?

I don't think Sherk used roids, I don't deserve to be champ and I think that he's going to kick my ass next weekend.

Get real.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

valrond said:


> The only one talking sh*t is that crybaby, inmmature, teenager-acting "prodigy" called BJ Penn. Just listen at his words man, you can't defend what we says without being a complete BJ fan.


The rest of your post has already been picked apart, so I just want to focus on this one part. Did you really have to put "prodigy" in quotation marks? Are you insinuating BJ Penn is anything but a prodigy? If so, please stop posting in any thread involving BJ Penn, because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

IronMan said:


> I won't defend what BJ says in any way other than by saying that if you can't deal with smack talk, you don't have the balls to be a professional athlete.
> 
> I like BJ, I've met him, he's a good guy and he's very, very smart. Whatever you think of what he said, remember that, as a fighter, smack talk ss part of the world you live in, it's a part of the head game.
> 
> ...


I don't really mind the smack talk. I just hope BJ is professional enough to show Sherk some respect after the fight is over. Win, lose, or draw. BJ is a passionate guy so I can understand why he says things that he really shouldn't really say.


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## Baby Jay D. (Apr 25, 2008)

Interviwer: " BJ, what are you doing to get ready for this fight?"

BJ: " I'm doing everything but steriods for this fight!"

Best response ever!?! Classic.


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

Wawaweewa said:


> The rest of your post has already been picked apart, so I just want to focus on this one part. Did you really have to put "prodigy" in quotation marks? Are you insinuating BJ Penn is anything but a prodigy? If so, please stop posting in any thread involving BJ Penn, because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.


Picked apart how?. By saying things i didn't say?. Where did I say that he had fought with Franca and Florian?. Where did I say that BJ fans said he had better wrestling ?. I said the only thing left for BJ Penn fans to say it's that he has better wrestling and he's stronger.

And of course, by taking the part of the record that you like, you can make any argument for any fighter.

And I can hardly call a prodigy a guy that has lost 4 of his 17 fights, 3 of his last 6, that doesn't train hard, has questionable cardio, and doesn't follow the spirit of martial arts AT ALL.

Remember, this is Mixed Martial Arts, not boxing smack-talking. Perhaps BJ should learn from Anderson Silva how to be the best fighter in the world and still humble and respect every opponent, as he has even when the opponent didn't respect him, like Henderson did.

To IronMan, you may have met BJ Penn, but I doubt that you know him like you pretend. Are you his friend? Do you got out with him?. You have to spend A LOT of time to know a person, and I doubt you did that. Penn is not only smack talking, he's disrespecting his opponent and the sport he supposedly represents. He does not represent the values of MMA, and even worse, he's a "champ". He has the title, but he's no champ, he doesn't act like a champion, he didn't beat the champion, he got the title match having a 2-3 record in his last 5 fights and only 1 fight in 2007. He's a prodigy of getting title matches, 5 matches have been for the title (6 with the next one), almost half of his UFC matches.

Oh, and by the way, a good submission fighter should be able to make more submissions than a RNC. You can't even compare Nogueira with BJ Penn. Nogueira has 19 of his 31 wins by submission, and he has submitted guys in almost every known submission, not to mention that he has submitted guys really fast.

So yes, BJ Penn is talented, but that's about it, I don't like the guy, and I hope that Sherk slams his face in the mat.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

valrond said:


> And I can hardly call a prodigy a guy that has lost 4 of his 17 fights, 3 of his last 6, that doesn't train hard, has questionable cardio, and doesn't follow the spirit of martial arts AT ALL.


One of his losses was 50 pounds above his weight class, that shouldn't count. And two losses were to the two top fighters in a weight class above his natural one. And his other loss was in his 4th fight ever against a very solid fighter in a title fight. Unlike Sherk, Penn does not have a padded record and has fought nothing but solid fighters. There is no shame in losing to a great fighter, even GSP and Anderson Silva (the two candidates for top P4P fighter) have losses.

No one denies that BJ Penn is a prodigy, except you apparently.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

valrond said:


> Picked apart how?. By saying things i didn't say?. Where did I say that he had fought with Franca and Florian?. Where did I say that BJ fans said he had better wrestling ?. I said the only thing left for BJ Penn fans to say it's that he has better wrestling and he's stronger.
> 
> And of course, by taking the part of the record that you like, you can make any argument for any fighter.
> 
> ...


How can you not consider BJ a prodigy? Look at what he has done in Jiu Jitsu.

Jiu-Jitsu career highlights

1. May, 1997 Enters first tournament in Bakersfield, CA and wins both his weight and the open weight class.
2. June, 1997 Enters the Joe Moreira tournament as a blue belt winning his weight class.
3. June, 1997 Wins submission grappling tournament
4. 1997 Enters Brasileiro and places 4th in his weight class, blue belt category
5. 1997 Continues to enter tournaments upon return from Brazil placing first consistently
6. 1997 Receives blue belt from Ralph Gracie
7. 1998 Silver medal at Brazilian Mundials competition in his weight division; receives purple belt upon return
8. 1999 Bronze medal at Brazilian Mundials in heavier weight class as a newly promoted Nova Uniao brown belt.
9. 1999 Gold medal, Copa Pacifica Tournament in Los Angeles, CA
10. 1999 Receives Black belt from Andre Pederneiras just 3 weeks before the 2000 Mundials
11. 1999 Joins Nova Uniao Competition Team (reserved for the four top team competitors)
12. 2000 First non-Brazilian to win gold medal in black belt division of the Mundial World Championships held in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

He was the fist non Brazilian to win Mundials in the black belt division. That by itself is enough to consider him a prodigy. I also beleive he was able to recieve his black belt the fastest out of any American ever. I may be wrong on that but I think it's true. He's called the Prodigy because of his accomplishments in BJJ not the UFC so bringing up his mma record has nothing to do with him being a prodigy. If you don't consider him a prodigy based on those accomplishements then you are just being biased because you don't like him.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

I'm more inclined to call a guy like BJ a prodigy than Sherk, because he is so gifted. He's a great fighter, no matter which way you slice it. I'm not much of a Matt Hughes fan, but I'll never deny his greatness.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

valrond said:


> And of course, by taking the part of the record that you like, you can make any argument for any fighter.


Then let's see you do it for Sherk.

The only number anyone has been able to give is "he has more fights."

Show me something that indicates Sherk has an advantage on paper, and we'll talk. Until then, I'm going to stick by my statement that BJ is the better fighter on paper.



> And I can hardly call a prodigy a guy that has lost 4 of his 17 fights, 3 of his last 6, that doesn't train hard, has questionable cardio, and doesn't follow the spirit of martial arts AT ALL.


I know you've been asked this alread, but I'm forced to ask again: Do you know who BJ Penn is?

Do you know where his nickname comes from?

Do you know why he was invited to join the UFC without any previous MMA experience?

If you're ignorant to MMA history, admit that you are, and I'll explain it to you. If you're going to persist in being both ignorant and arrogant, I won't be nice about it.



> Remember, this is Mixed Martial Arts, not boxing smack-talking. Perhaps BJ should learn from Anderson Silva how to be the best fighter in the world and still humble and respect every opponent, as he has even when the opponent didn't respect him, like Henderson did.


The only reason you don't hear Anderson Silva smack talk is because that's not how he plays the mental game. He does it other ways, and, trust me, he does it. (the main reason Silva doesn't talk as much smack is partially because he's not American and doesn't want to lose any appeal to American fans by coming off as an uppity foreigner, but there are others, too)

Muhammad Ali talked smack, openly and more thoroughly than BJ. Does that make him a bad, disrespectful champion?

There are reasons why the way boxing is handled is stupid. Smack talk is not one of them.



> To IronMan, you may have met BJ Penn, but I doubt that you know him like you pretend. Are you his friend? Do you got out with him?. You have to spend A LOT of time to know a person, and I doubt you did that. Penn is not only smack talking, he's disrespecting his opponent and the sport he supposedly represents. He does not represent the values of MMA, and even worse, he's a "champ". He has the title, but he's no champ, he doesn't act like a champion, he didn't beat the champion, he got the title match having a 2-3 record in his last 5 fights and only 1 fight in 2007. He's a prodigy of getting title matches, 5 matches have been for the title (6 with the next one), almost half of his UFC matches.


How do I pretend to know him?

I went to a few seminars he ran. I rolled with guy, I sparred with the guy, we hung out and talked for a while. He's a decent, genuine guy.

Again, I'll make the point that Ali talked smack. Did that make him any less of a champ?

He's a prodigy for alot of reasons, you should know how he got that nickname. Everybody else on here seems to.



> Oh, and by the way, a good submission fighter should be able to make more submissions than a RNC. You can't even compare Nogueira with BJ Penn. Nogueira has 19 of his 31 wins by submission, and he has submitted guys in almost every known submission, not to mention that he has submitted guys really fast.


So now Shinya Aoki's a bad submission fighter because he only uses triangles?

This is a stupid, ridiculous statement. BJ could write an entire book on the submissions and submission variations he knows... oh, wait, he did.

I would say that the fact that he sticks to one is a result of opportunity, of a common mistake his opponents make that gives him the opportunity to get to the back, and that would be true, but if I simplified it like that I'd be minimizing the stupidity of your point.

BJ had 4 different submissions on Hughes in their most recent fight. He transitioned between them seamlessly. He moves from position to position easier than any other fighter in the UFC.

If you think there's something wrong with the way he fights his game, give me a technical analysis of what you think he's doing wrong, because if you want one, I'll be happy to give you a technical look at why BJ's game works.

Still, you'd actually have to admit that there are some things you don't understand and don't know about and, as much as I'd like that to happen, it doesn't look likely.



> So yes, BJ Penn is talented, but that's about it, I don't like the guy, and I hope that Sherk slams his face in the mat.


You're entitled to like or dislike whoever you want, however stupid your reasons may be. Still, you haven't made a single point as to why Sherk will win this fight and, in this entire post that I'm responding to, you actually manage to ignore the entire point, and you fail to respond to any of the points I've made.

Please, go back and look at my post if you want to debate me about who will win this fight. If you do, I'll be happy to talk civilly, if you don't, then I'll just continue to point out how ignorant your statements are.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

mjbish23 said:


> How can you not consider BJ a prodigy? Look at what he has done in Jiu Jitsu.
> 
> Jiu-Jitsu career highlights
> 
> ...


Dammit, I wanted him to look that stuff up, but it's a good post.

I would add only that this is a really small slice of what BJ did over the course of his training. It's a highlight reel, and he compete a bunch more than this post would lead someone who's totally ignorant about him to believe.

Still, great post, mjb. Repped. Even though this is straight off of the grappling credentials thread.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Valrond, could you be so kind as too show me another fighter who deserves to have the nickname prodigy more so than BJ.

First some guy says you don't use your hips to strike and now this guy says BJ isn't a prodigy. Either I have become very ignorant and I need to re-think everything I know or these guys are playing a joke on us.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

So Penn talked some smack.
You can't support the guy who was stripped of the title for steroid use while saying BJ "doesn't act like a champ."


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

MLS said:


> Valrond, could you be so kind as too show me another fighter who deserves to have the nickname prodigy more so than BJ.
> 
> First some guy says you don't use your hips to strike and now this guy says BJ isn't a prodigy. Either I have become very ignorant and I need to re-think everything I know or these guys are playing a joke on us.


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Thanks for that. You made my Sunday. I repped you already for your comment on the MT vs. TKD thread, but thanks.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Dammit, I wanted him to look that stuff up, but it's a good post.
> 
> I would add only that this is a really small slice of what BJ did over the course of his training. It's a highlight reel, and he compete a bunch more than this post would lead someone who's totally ignorant about him to believe.
> 
> Still, great post, mjb. Repped. Even though this is straight off of the grappling credentials thread.


Sorry I didnt know you wanted him to look it up. He probably wouldnt have anyway tho. I actually took it off of wikipedia because I didnt know where else to find his accomlishments. I know he has a lot more but like you said this is just a highlight. Thanks for the rep. I have to spread some around before I can rep you again but i'll get to it.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

mjbish23 said:


> Sorry I didnt know you wanted him to look it up. He probably wouldnt have anyway tho. I actually took it off of wikipedia because I didnt know where else to find his accomlishments. I know he has a lot more but like you said this is just a highlight. Thanks for the rep. I have to spread some around before I can rep you again but i'll get to it.


It's cool. I just wanted to make a point. Thanks, man.

Oh, and that's what the grappling creds thread is there for. You're more than welcome to use it, and I'm glad you did.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

IronMan said:


> It's cool. I just wanted to make a point. Thanks, man.
> 
> Oh, and that's what the grappling creds thread is there for. You're more than welcome to use it, and I'm glad you did.


I actually didn't even know it was there. Thanks for posting that link it was actually pretty interesting seeing everyones accomplishments.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

vandalian said:


> So Penn talked some smack.
> You can't support the guy who was stripped of the title for steroid use while saying BJ "doesn't act like a champ."


I understand what you're saying in spirit, but Sherk, whether innocent or not, had his title taken, served his sentence, and should be regarded as any other contender now (aside from the fact that he will probably be randomly double-tested for the rest of his career, so in fact he is probably far less likely to be doping than most other fighters in the future). 

And Sherk's use in the past doesn't excuse BJ's refusal to let the issue go, bring it up over and over including interrupting him during interviews, accuse Sherk of other shit like blood doping and HGH (which he himself might be using, who knows) and just generally be a dick. I'm not saying he deserves a sentence or even that he is somehow in the wrong but damn, im just really tired of hearing him blab about it. 

It's a moot point in regard to their upcoming fight and it sounds to me like he is just trying to be a jerk.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

HexRei said:


> I understand what you're saying in spirit, but Sherk, whether innocent or not, had his title taken, served his sentence, and should be regarded as any other contender now (aside from the fact that he will probably be randomly double-tested for the rest of his career, so in fact he is probably far less likely to be doping than most other fighters in the future).
> 
> And Sherk's use in the past doesn't excuse BJ's refusal to let the issue go, bring it up over and over including interrupting him during interviews, accuse Sherk of other shit like blood doping and HGH (which he himself might be using, who knows) and just generally be a dick. I'm not saying he deserves a sentence or even that he is somehow in the wrong but damn, im just really tired of hearing him blab about it.
> 
> It's a moot point in regard to their upcoming fight and it sounds to me like he is just trying to be a jerk.


Man, I read your post and all I can say is, you need to stop sig-betting.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Man, I read your post and all I can say is, you need to stop sig-betting.



hahahah! well, i bet on BJ for this fight...  I guess I should clear my sig since they are all from the BJ-Stevenson fight, where I learned to never doubt Penn. Even if he is a total jerk


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

HexRei said:


> hahahah! well, i bet on BJ for this fight...  I guess I should clear my sig since they are all from the BJ-Stevenson fight, where I learned to never doubt Penn. Even if he is a total jerk


F*ck. I gotta change my bet.

Just kidding.

Still, that's why you don't bet against the Prodigy.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

here's another false perception among mma fans....

people can just acquire excellent cardio by training harder....

hate to break it to you but some guys just don't have it. when they get in the octagon, get in real fight, they will gas before 5 rounds is up every time. a good example is frank mir. horrific cardio, and he'll never have good cardio, no matter how much he tries to tell us, "he's a different person now"....it's all bs....some guys can change, some guys can't.

whether bj is one of those guys we really don't know...he's hasn't fought past round 2 since going back to LW...

sry for the dbl post

i would say machida is more deserving of that nickname....he's been fighting since he was in diapers....thus a 'prodigy'


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

Wawaweewa said:


> *One of his losses was 50 pounds above his weight class, that shouldn't count*. And two losses were to the two top fighters in a weight class above his natural one. And his other loss was in his 4th fight ever against a very solid fighter in a title fight.


Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Why should it "not count?" It sounds like you are making a lot of excuses for BJ's losses when it is not even necessary.

BJ may not have the best record, but all of his fights have been competitive. That alone should speak for itself.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

Rated said:


> Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Why should it "not count?" It sounds like you are making a lot of excuses for BJ's losses when it is not even necessary.
> 
> BJ may not have the best record, but all of his fights have been competitive. That alone should speak for itself.


By "shouldn't count" I meant it should not be used to question his fighting ability. Obviously it should count on his record because he took the fight and lost. But really, what does that fight prove? If anything, it shows how amazingly good he is. Which goes back to my actual point that there is no shame in losing to great fighters, especially ones that are that much bigger than you.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> sry for the dbl post
> 
> i would say machida is more deserving of that nickname....he's been fighting since he was in diapers....thus a 'prodigy'


???
Prodigy: a person, esp. a child or young person, having extraordinary talent or ability

How does Machida better fit the defintion for 'prodigy'?
Penn was given that name for demonstrating extraordinary talent at BJJ without a long period of study... ie. in 1997 he 'started' with BJJ, by 2000 he won the Mundial World Championship... thats extraordinary talent


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

Wawaweewa said:


> By "shouldn't count" I meant it should not be used to question his fighting ability. Obviously it should count on his record because he took the fight and lost. But really, what does that fight prove? If anything, it shows how amazingly good he is. Which goes back to my actual point that there is no shame in losing to great fighters, especially ones that are that much bigger than you.


Agreed.
Good fighters will exploit your weaknesses, place you out of your comfort zone... this is where a fighter can learn the most.
What can you learn by repeating the same moves over and over again without challenge... what do you gain from that?

Its like what Liddel was saying about Slice.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

HexRei said:


> It's a moot point in regard to their upcoming fight and it sounds to me like he is just trying to be a jerk.


Oh, he is being a jerk. I don't dispute that one bit. But man, he can freakin' fight.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

vandalian said:


> Oh, he is being a jerk. I don't dispute that one bit. But man, he can freakin' fight.


Ali was a huge douchebag too, when you look at the stuff that he said to and about his opponents. The man was still an incredible fighter.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

Wawaweewa said:


> By "shouldn't count" I meant it should not be used to question his fighting ability. Obviously it should count on his record because he took the fight and lost. But really, what does that fight prove? If anything, it shows how amazingly good he is. Which goes back to my actual point that there is no shame in losing to great fighters, especially ones that are that much bigger than you.


Ah, alright. It sounded like you were saying we should just disregard all his losses because he was fighting at another weight class.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

IronMan said:


> So I followed Slapshot's argument back to the beginning, because I wanted to see if the place he came from initially made some sort of sense. (since his later points made absolutely none)
> 
> You honestly believe that there is only a slight difference in the striking? Sherk has knocked out who that would make you believe that?
> 
> ...


I would like to ask the same question, who did BJ KO? Respectable strikers sure but then and now comes into play in this conversation. 

BJ no doubt has heaver hands then Sherk, I'm not questioning that at all. I do think Sherk has a solid chin, I think that Sherks defense and solid chin negates a lot of BJ's striking and allows for sherk to be able to stand and bang and with that set up td's. 



IronMan said:


> As for the quality of Sherk's submission game and his ability to defend BJ's submissions. It remains to be seen that Sherk can defend a world champion on the ground. He beat a BJJ blackbelt, but you have to understand that there's a difference between being a blackbelt and being a world champion.


Im going to have to agree and disagree at the same time.
Blackbelt = practitioner
world champion = top competitor 
neither convince me that, that makes BJ's sub game undefendable for Sherk, obviously its going to be good and dangerous.
I dont want to get too far off track but as far as applying BJJ to MMA goes Nate Diaz is in my mind is much more dangerous of a submission fighter than Penn and he's not even a BJJ black belt.



IronMan said:


> Saying that Hermes Franca is comparable to BJ Penn in Jiu-Jitsu is like saying that Kenny Florian is comparable to Marcelo Garcia.


In a pure Jiu-Jitsu fight you're right, in a MMA fight talking about submissions I think it is comparable. 



IronMan said:


> Does KenFlo have great jiu-jitsu? Absolutely.
> 
> Would he last five minutes on the mat with Marcelo? Hell no.


Put Marcelo Garcia in the cage with kenflo then we'll see whats what. I never was speaking pure jiu-jitsu and everyone here should know that by now.


IronMan said:


> BJ is the same way. His jiu-jitsu is incredible and while I don't honestly believe it's as good as Marcelo's, you have to remember that this guy submitted Gomi, Hughes, Pulver and Ludwig. While I don't believe that those guys are all necessarily at the same level that Sherk is, I don't think that if BJ catches Sherk in any of the submissions he caught on Hughes in their first fight or their second, Sherk won't be able to muscle out like Hughes did. And if BJ takes Sherk's back I think this fight is over.


I think Sherk has better control in his wrestling/ground game than Matt and wont end up with BJ on his back in the first place.
Pulver's ground game never was that awesome to begin with, Gromi's might be ok but nothing like Sherks or Hugues's. Ive seen Hughes get cough in how many subs? tons! the guy is the "of all time best" BUT he's cocky and he's not know for his sub defense more like his lack of it, the one thing he dose extremely well is pull the trigger, he finishes fighters. 


IronMan said:


> I do think that Sherk's wrestling game is both credible and impressive, but he has not proven that he can beat a BJJ world champion. If we were talking about a 155 pound Jeff Monson, I would talk about his game differently. If we were talking about a guy who won ADCC (even just won a couple of matches against great opposition), I'd talk about his game differently.
> 
> Still, I don't think he's done that and, while Franca's jiu-jitsu is very good, it's not incredible by pure grappling standards, while BJ's is.


I never said it was, I said there submission game is about comparable to penn's in MMA as a reference. 



IronMan said:


> As far as how overrated Sherk's wrestling is, I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think he's definitely getting good credit, and appropriate credit, as a wrestler. But I don't think that it's right that people talk about his wrestling the way they talk about Coleman's wrestling, or Randleman's wrestling or Couture's wrestling.


Hmm well its what makes him dominant in hes perspective weight class so I think its fair to talk about it in that fashion especially when he's so much better than the competition. 



IronMan said:


> Just like there's a difference between a great wrestler (which Sherk most definitely is) and an NCAA champion wrestler.


Guess if there was a NCAA champ at sherks weight class and good enough at MMA to challenge him id see your point but right now theres not. For sherks weight class and the competitions level of wrestling ability he's not a god but he sure is a beast.



IronMan said:


> I think people forget how much his conditioning and his build plays a roll in his wrestling. He deserves credit for those things, but the majority of his ability to control guys comes from his strength as much as it does his wrestling background.


Ill agree.



IronMan said:


> It's not fair to compare Sherk's wrestling to champion wrestlers for the same reason it's not fair to compare any BJJ blackbelt's jiu-jitsu to BJ's, because we're talking about two totally different tiers, two totally different levels of competition.
> 
> Hopefully, my points are clear.


I never did, and Ill take sherk over (insert champion wrestler here) in MMA fight any day. Im not talking about rolling on a mat with a GI, Im talking MMA and there is a difference. 
BJ is a better fighter than Hermes Franca but I think using him as a reference as to whether or not Sherk can defend BJ's submission game is acceptable. If you think there sub games are worlds apart thats fine by me.



IronMan said:


> By the way, Slapshot, don't call my arguments stupid.


Well we all make less than perfect statements(I know I do) sometimes dont be so butt hurt, are you so better than everyone else you expect we should not call your opinion into question? LOL I remember being a kid it was great, enjoy it wile you can.:thumb02:

I dont even have time to edit this I have to go, so Im sure the mistakes will be many, ill have to edit later /wave


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

vandalian said:


> Oh, he is being a jerk. I don't dispute that one bit. But man, he can freakin' fight.


Dude, he's a goddamn beast! Which might explain why he can get away with being such a cocky prick


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Rated said:


> Is that even necessary?


Its ok Rated cant say I haven't busted his chops here and there as of late.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Good post, slapshot. I knew that you'd make this fun.



slapshot said:


> I would like to ask the same question, who did BJ KO? Respectable strikers sure but then and now comes into play in this conversation.
> 
> BJ no doubt has heaver hands then Sherk, I'm not questioning that at all. I do think Sherk has a solid chin, I think that Sherks defense and solid chin negates a lot of BJ's striking and allows for sherk to be able to stand and bang and with that set up td's.


They were top tier strikers when BJ fought them. He didn't have to strike with them, and the fact is, no one expected him to. He was expected to be a grappler, and it turns out he can hit like a truck.

BJ may not have shown that off in a while (though, I personally think he proved his striking is still relevant by going toe-to-toe with GSP), but when has Sherk shown that off ever?



> Im going to have to agree and disagree at the same time.
> Blackbelt = practitioner
> world champion = top competitor
> neither convince me that, that makes BJ's sub game undefendable for Sherk, obviously its going to be good and dangerous.
> I dont want to get too far off track but as far as applying BJJ to MMA goes Nate Diaz is in my mind is much more dangerous of a submission fighter than Penn and he's not even a BJJ black belt.


You're perfectly fine not being convinced. I'm just saying that comparing him to Franca and Florian isn't respecting the difference in the levels of their game, and equalizing them when they aren't equal.

As for Diaz being a more dangerous submission fighter, I think that's not true, because if BJ had gotten his back instead of Kurt Pellegrino, Nate would've take a nappy-nap.



> In a pure Jiu-Jitsu fight you're right, in a MMA fight talking about submissions I think it is comparable.


You think that Franca could choke at Takanori Gomi?

I just don't agree with you on this one, man.



> Put him in the cage with kenflo then we'll see whats what. I never was speaking pure jiu-jitsu and everyone here should know that by now.


Unfortunately, I think BJ beats Kenny everywhere, and however much you might agree with that, I think that it's important to know that BJ's guard is alot tighter, alot quicker and alot more fluid than KenFlo's, and his topside skills and guard passes are much more impressive as well.

Just generally, in terms of grappling, I think they're both awesome, but I think that BJ is just flat better than Kenny.



> I think Sherk has better control in his wrestling/ground game than Matt and wont end up with BJ on his back in the first place.
> Pulver's ground game never was that awesome to begin with, Gromi's might be ok but nothing like Sherks or Hugues's. Ive seen Hughes get cough in how many subs? tons! the guy is the "of all time best" BUT he's cocky and he's not know for his sub defense more like his lack of it, the one thing he dose extremely well is pull the trigger, he finishes fighters.


You're right about Hughes, and I think that you're right about Sherk to some degree, at least insofar as that his ability to defend submissions is better than Matt's.

Still, if Sean ends up in a bad position, like that high, tight guard (even if he's not worried about his back) he could get swept or caught in an omoplata or triangle. That would be the night for him.



> Hmm well its what makes him dominant in hes perspective weight class so I think its fair to talk about it in that fashion especially when he's so much better than the competition.
> 
> Guess if there was a NCAA champ at sherks weight class and good enough at MMA to challenge him id see your point but right now theres not. For sherks weight class and the competitions level of wrestling ability he's not a god but he sure is a beast.


Again, there's something different about competing at that high level. You just need to remember that when you talk about how great a wrestler Sherk is, and remember to concede (and you did, to some degree) that there are alot of reasons why Sherk is regarded as a great wrestler that aren't directly connected to his wrestling techniques.

I'm not saying Sherk's not the best wrestler at 155 (though, there are those who think he'd have alot of trouble with Gomi, I don't), but I am saying he hasn't stepped beyond the thread in the world of wrestling the way that the guys I've mentioned have.

He's the best in the division, he's not the best in the world.



> I never did, and Ill take sherk over (insert champion wrestler here) in MMA fight any day. Im not talking about rolling on a mat with a GI, Im talking MMA and there is a difference.
> BJ is a better fighter than Hermes Franca but I think using him as a reference as to whether or not Sherk can defend BJ's submission game is acceptable. If you think there sub games are worlds apart thats fine by me.


I don't think it's an adequate or acceptable comparison for *BJ's submission game.* Though I think that you get my point, and I get yours.



> Well we all make less than perfect statements(I know I do) sometimes dont be so butt hurt, are you so better than everyone else you expect we should not call your opinion into question? LOL I remember being a kid it was great, enjoy it wile you can.:thumb02:


Because you didn't offer any data and acted like you did.

You're entitled to your opinion, but back it up with some numbers or some technical facts and step outside the theorizing.

I'm not saying that I get everything right. I'm not the prophet of MMA, but I like to offer reasons why I think things.


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## Harbinger (Mar 3, 2007)

Sherk by decision? Penn would be dead in the water in the middle of the 3rd and would probably die before the 5th round.

I think it'll be Penn in the 2nd by tko or ref stoppage.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Well I don't often come after anyone I think has a "fair" perspective. I think its a close match up between the two fighters and Im glad you at least are willing to entertain the idea of my side of things as I do see yours even if I don't agree 100% on this one.

I dont think a lot of what people are fighting about here is as relevant as we would like to think, some of it is just wording which is lame, some of it is true difference in opinion and LOL might as well try and run through a wall because noboudy is going to change perspective there.  

After all this has been said I can honestly say I still think these two are neck and neck in the past Ive even picked BJ but I really dont have a favorite fighter here other than SOME of the BJ fans can be annoying and that makes me cheer for Sherk.


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