# JDS weighs in on Velasquez vs Lesnar



## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

> Junior Dos Santos breaks down Brock Lesnar vs. Cain Velasquez:
> 
> "In my opinion, If it ends in the first round Lesnar takes it, if it ends after the first round I think Cain takes it. Brock is that big heavyweight, very dangerous, if he’s on top it’s very hard for you to escape. He’s very strong and very heavy and has good wrestling as well. He’s got heavy hands, it would be a very tough fight for me for sure, he’s a very dangerous guy. The strategy would be similar to mine against Roy Nelson, not to land on my back, because it’s not a good thing to be underneath a guy that weighs around 130 kilos. As for Cain Velasquez, I think he’s the best conditioned heavyweight out there, his cardio is very good. He’s very technical too, has excellent wrestling, has shown great abilities in striking as well, he kicks well, punches well. We haven’t seem much from his ground game, but I think he’s more technical from other heavyweights, fast and a very good gas tank. So they are a bit different, but basically it’s strength against speed"
> http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/9/9/1678866/cigano-breaks-down-brock-vs-cain


 Pretty good breakdown and i dont see Cain being stopped early unless Lesnar improves his standup immensely so he can setup his TDs. Those bullrush TDs didnt work on Randy or Carwin (til he gassed) and i highly doubt they will work on Cain, who is younger, faster, better footwork then the pre-mentioned with amazing wrestling to boot.

Speed and technique vs Size and strength. I know what im going with


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Cain all the way baby.


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## smittyssports (Jul 26, 2010)

This fight really could go wither way. I would like to see Cain win just because if he does I think a fight between Cain and Junior Dos Santos is more interesting than Lesnar vs. Junior Dos Santos


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

I have never seen Lesnar gas, so what makes anyone think he will? Sorry JDS but I have to disagree. I think if it goes to decision that Cain has a higher chance of winning on points. But if it is finished in any round I would be it is Lesnar who gets his hand raised.


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## Inferno (Jan 19, 2010)

I think Lesnar will be dangerous for at least 3 rounds. If Cain can push him to the Championship rounds while keeping a strong pace, his chances for victory vastly improve. If I was putting money on this fight, my gut says Lesnar is just too big and talented for Cain...can't wait either way, I like both men so there will be no disappointment for me in this one.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Inferno said:


> I think Lesnar will be dangerous for at least 3 rounds. If Cain can push him to the Championship rounds while keeping a strong pace, his chances for victory vastly improve. If I was putting money on this fight, my gut says Lesnar is just too big and talented for Cain...can't wait either way, I like both men so there will be no disappointment for me in this one.


My basic sentiments :thumbsup:


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## kickstar (Nov 12, 2009)

Soojooko said:


> Cain all the way baby.



i agree..


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

Cain In the next 5 years will be known as the new Fedor!


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

I can pretty much agree with JDS on this one, but maybe not on which round. I think that if Lesnar can't finish this one by the end of rnd 2, it'll likely be Cain's fight to win. If he can protect himself on the ground early (I don't think he's big enough to sprawl effectively while Lesnar is energized) and then as Lesnar gets tired make him stand and make him sleep. However if Lesnar can secure position and land some shots with his gargantuaso hands, he'll likely get a TKO.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

??? Lesnar visablely and stats wise slowed down a ton vs Herring.

The last couple rounds were alot of LnP, some mixed in GnP that was half the power of the GnP we see from Brock usually and alot of heavy breathing.

He also had his mouth open breathing vs Randy. He slowed down a bit, for sure.

He also slowed a bit vs Carwin in the 2nd, off setted by Carwin completely gassing and looking immobile.

Brock undoubtedly has great cardio for his size. I dont think he has great cardio in general like Cain does. The pace Cain sets and keeps is awe inspiring. There is no way in hell Brock could keep the pace Cain did vs Rothwell or Kongo.

He may not have to, the key for him is obv slowing it down, finding a way to grind Cain down. I just think the longer he tries that, the longer Cain has to catch him with technique and speed.

JDS agrees 

and yes, Cain vs JDS is the real superfight of the UFC HW division. I wanna see two well rounded, skilled and agile HWs go at it, its been a VERY long time coming, like Fedor vs CC long.


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## dav35 (Sep 30, 2009)

Personally, I am looking forward to seeing how Cain's cardio fares if/when he gets put on his back. Being on your back with a 265 pound man on top of you is a bit different than what we've seen Cain go through in a fight.

I think Lesnar has a much better shot at finishing this fight than people give him credit for. People keep pointing to Cain's cardio as the key to him winning the fight. I disagree. Cain's key to winning is staying off his back, and forcing Lesnar to stand with him.

Regardless, this fight should be great.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

sorry but lesnar takes this

its 5 rounds ppl....5 rounds...cain wont be able to stuff brocks takedowns for 25 mins and even if he doest stuff them until round 3 so brock can get tired i really doubt cain will be bouncing around

yes he has great cardio but that doesnt mean he cant get tired and stuffing 30 TD attempts from a 285 pound wrestler will tire him out. he doesnt have the power to knock him out in the first round imagine in the 3rd, 4th, 5th how his power will be

the ONLY way cain can win this fight is a UD and i just dont think its possible for him to avoid getting taken down and suffer some nasty GnP for 25 mins, cains only advantage is speed, and its not that big either, every1 is forgetting just how fast lesnar can move, cain has an advantage on striking speed but thats pretty much it, i dont think he can outrun lesnar just because hes smaller

lesnar almost made it to the NFL based on sheer strength and speed....good luck cain:thumb02:


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

its Fedor vs Zulu all over again....

and the beginning of a new era.


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## dav35 (Sep 30, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> its Fedor vs Zulu all over again....
> 
> and the beginning of a new era.


what do you mean?


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

nothing, just being an old school MMA nerd. thats how i honestly think it will go down. ppl will be surprised.


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## dav35 (Sep 30, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> nothing, just being an old school MMA nerd. thats how i honestly think it will go down. ppl will be surprised.


I like Cain quite a bit myself. However, I find it highly unlikely that he beats Lesnar.

In your first post you referenced bull rush takedowns against Carwin. Which TD attempts are you referring to?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Cain Velasquez is going to take that title.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

dav35 said:


> I like Cain quite a bit myself. However, I find it highly unlikely that he beats Lesnar.
> 
> In your first post you referenced bull rush takedowns against Carwin. Which TD attempts are you referring to?


 1st round TD where he simply bullrushed, got whizzered and they both went down but sprung up quickly.

Same type of bullrush TDs that worked vs Herring and Mir cuz they are 2 of the worst wrestlers in the division (herring got outwrestled by Kongo and slammed repeated if ppl remember correctly and Mir invited the TDs anyways thinking he is super BJJ superstar).

He tried the non set up TDs vs Randy too, got stuffed and his back taken, Randy was gonna take him down but Brock grabbed the fence.

Anyways, Brock is still a beast and a threat. He needs to add more tools and setup his TDs better or i dont see him beating Cain. 

He was on a long layoff and coming off an illness so i expect to see a better Brock Lesnar this time around. I just dont feel it will be enough to beat Cain.

Brock better try to finish it early. Cains cardio isnt a myth, he has been showing it since high school and college, wrestling guys who are 285 when he is 240.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

I see this fight as a lot closer than most of you think. I think it will come down to Cain's game plan and what he does when he hurts Lesnar. If Cain manages to stuff the TD he will be able to land some shots, probably shots significant enough to hurt Brock. The key to Cain's victory is to not follow Brock to the ground, if the fight hits the mat it's pretty much game over for Cain. This should be a close fight the whole way and stylistically it's a great matchup, they both have similar skillsets while Cain posesses hand speed and Lesnar has size and strength. My prediction, Lesnar by round 3 TKO or Cain round 2 TKO depending on what Cain does in the second. I also think alot of you are underestimating Brock's cardio, he has tired before but that's been a result of adrenalin dumping because of his inexperience, I wouldn't be surprised to see him still going in the 4th or 5th, just look at his workouts.


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## amoosenamedhank (Sep 2, 2009)

rabakill said:


> I see this fight as a lot closer than most of you think. I think it will come down to Cain's game plan and what he does when he hurts Lesnar. If Cain manages to stuff the TD he will be able to land some shots, probably shots significant enough to hurt Brock. The key to Cain's victory is to not follow Brock to the ground, if the fight hits the mat it's pretty much game over for Cain. This should be a close fight the whole way and stylistically it's a great matchup, they both have similar skillsets while Cain posesses hand speed and Lesnar has size and strength. My prediction, Lesnar by round 3 TKO or Cain round 2 TKO depending on what Cain does in the second. I also think alot of you are underestimating Brock's cardio, he has tired before but that's been a result of adrenalin dumping because of his inexperience, I wouldn't be surprised to see him still going in the 4th or 5th, just look at his workouts.


Just because Carwin clipped him and sent him running doesn't mean everyone is going to have that kind of power to do so. I keep hearing "let's see how Cain handles the situation when Brock is hurt" Who says he's ever going to get the opportunity... I still stand by the theory no man walking this planet can take a clean shot to the jaw from Carwin... he's just a beast.

But agreeing with the end of your post... I think most people also forget how few fights Brock has had. They always seem to base what he will do from his last fight. Brock is still in that stage where every time you see him, he stands to improve greatly. It's not like he's over the peak of his prime and what you see is what you get. 

He's been hit and he's been hit hard now... I don't think we'll see the tuck and run again... (unless he getting punched in the mouth by Carwin some more :thumb02: )


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

amoosenamedhank said:


> Just because Carwin clipped him and sent him running doesn't mean everyone is going to have that kind of power to do so. I keep hearing "let's see how Cain handles the situation when Brock is hurt" Who says he's ever going to get the opportunity... I still stand by the theory no man walking this planet can take a clean shot to the jaw from Carwin... he's just a beast.
> 
> But agreeing with the end of your post... I think most people also forget how few fights Brock has had. They always seem to base what he will do from his last fight. Brock is still in that stage where every time you see him, he stands to improve greatly. It's not like he's over the peak of his prime and what you see is what you get.
> 
> He's been hit and he's been hit hard now... I don't think we'll see the tuck and run again... (unless he getting punched in the mouth by Carwin some more :thumb02: )


Did I say Cain has Carwin's power? Cain is a heavyweight who has hurt people with has hands, hands that are faster than Lesnar's, that's all he needs to hurt Brock. To think Brock can walk through Cain's hardest punches unhurt is foolish. Carwin couldn't knock out Brock with one punch so obviously Cain won't, that's what combinations are for.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

JDS is one smart guy!
He knows what he's talking about.


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## Phez (Sep 10, 2010)

If I was a betting man I would have to put my money on Lesnar.

JDS made some really good points, though he forgot to mention Brocks freaky speed (and his conditoning isn't to bad either).

If Carwin wasn't able to finish Brock I can't see Cain being able to, Carwin has much better hands then Cain in my opinion.

I see Lesnar winning via TKO in the second (though it would be good to see another submission from him).

Though as long as it's a good fight I don't mind who wins, both fighters are amazing.


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## suniis (Mar 30, 2010)

I find Cain to be extremely well rounded, and well conditioned.

If he beats Lesnar, I can see Cain being the GSP of the HW division...


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## EVERLOST (May 28, 2007)

I have seen all of Cains fights and i just dont get what all the nut hugging is about. I can understand JDS nut huggers, hes the man. But Cain? Really? I think cains boxing is better than Brocks but i think Brocks Power is gonna win the day here and i hate Brock. But i really hate Cain. And whoever said hes the next Fedor comment......wow truely. So how many years do you think he will hold a belt and go unbeaten before a loss?


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

Cain all the way....technical striking, great wrestling, great cardio, and on paper he has decent BJJ. brock only has an advantage in size. Cain is gonna do what Carwin did, only hes not gonna rock Brock as bad, but outpoint him instead...and not gas like Carwin did.


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## suniis (Mar 30, 2010)

mmaswe82 said:


> Cain all the way....technical striking, great wrestling, great cardio, and on paper he has decent BJJ. brock only has an advantage in size. Cain is gonna do what Carwin did, only hes not gonna rock Brock as bad, but outpoint him instead...and not gas like Carwin did.


That's kinda how I see it too...

Unless Brock takes him down at will, and does to Cain what he did to Mir...


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## Prolific (May 7, 2009)

Man alot of people are missing , what if Cain takes lesnar down most people don't even think that could be an option but I really think Cain is going to try and get him down to the ground.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

Prolific said:


> Man alot of people are missing , what if Cain takes lesnar down most people don't even think that could be an option but I really think Cain is going to try and get him down to the ground.


to take lesnar down you need to get close to him. When that happens the advantage goes to Lesnar because Cain's speed advantage is taken away.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

I doubt this fight goes over 3 rounds, I would be surprised if it last more than 2, someone is going to win via TKO


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## LuckyPunch (Aug 31, 2010)

Cain takes this hopefully, so that the world can see that Brock isn't really the best right now!


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

Prolific said:


> Man alot of people are missing , what if Cain takes lesnar down most people don't even think that could be an option but I really think Cain is going to try and get him down to the ground.


I see that as a possibility as well. But i believe that the number one gameplan will be to stuff his takedows and outpoint him. But i do think Cain could be able to actually take brock down and gnp him as well, especially if Brock can't "handle his riddum"  and maybe gas. brock has good cardio for such a big man, but i seriously doubt he can hang with the much smaller cario-machine Cain.
So maybe round 1 stuff and outpoint, round 2 pretty much the same, round 3, take Brock down and gnp. Round 4-5 i doubt we will see.
It all comes down to if Cain CAN stop Brock from taking him down. I think he can. Carwin may be more in the same size as Brock but hes not as good a wrestler as Cain. And he stopped Brocks TD before he gassed.
But then if Brock can take him down i see him doing so in the 1st and gnping to a TKO victory.


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## amoosenamedhank (Sep 2, 2009)

rabakill said:


> Did I say Cain has Carwin's power? Cain is a heavyweight who has hurt people with has hands, hands that are faster than Lesnar's, that's all he needs to hurt Brock. To think Brock can walk through Cain's hardest punches unhurt is foolish. Carwin couldn't knock out Brock with one punch so obviously Cain won't, that's what combinations are for.


First, I never claimed you said any of that. I quoted you for the last portion of your post talking about Brock still being green.:confused03:

Second, now you're putting words in my mouth.... everyone acts like because he took some shots from Carwin.. he's just going to stand there and get punched in the face. 

I could be overly optimistic here, but I think a lot of Brock's timidness came from Carwin's power. Now that that's not in the equation, I'm hoping to see more from Brock's stand up game.

And I really don't see Brock being the kind of guy you dance around throwing jabs at and trying to out point him in the striking game. You can almost guarantee yourself a Brock bullrushspecial if you try to play that game. 

And if you watched any of Brock's collegiate wrestling, you know he's great in the scramble, so for those of you wondering what happens if Cain goes for the TD... Lesnar could go down, but his ability recover and regain position is what makes him unique.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

ACTAFOOL said:


> sorry but lesnar takes this
> 
> its 5 rounds ppl....5 rounds...cain wont be able to stuff brocks takedowns for 25 mins and even if he doest stuff them until round 3 so brock can get tired i really doubt cain will be bouncing around
> 
> ...


Brock won't be shooting for 25 minutes. He might be able to shoot for 10 if Cain doesn't work his gut.


Also, Cain via RNC late 3rd after stuffing Lesnar's animal shot and spinning to his back like it's cool.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

amoosenamedhank said:


> First, I never claimed you said any of that. I quoted you for the last portion of your post talking about Brock still being green.:confused03:
> 
> Second, now you're putting words in my mouth.... everyone acts like because he took some shots from Carwin.. he's just going to stand there and get punched in the face.
> 
> ...


don't back out of what you said and then act like I am delusional. I didn't mention Carwin once, you were the one that brought up the comparison by stating Cain wouldn't be able to get Lesnar running like Carwin did. The fact is Cain has faster hands than Lesnar and a well timed combination could definitely hurt him, that's all I said, this has nothing to do with Carwin. That's a fairly cohesive idea, you shouldn't be confused by it.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

amoosenamedhank said:


> And if you watched any of Brock's collegiate wrestling, you know he's great in the scramble, so for those of you wondering what happens if Cain goes for the TD... Lesnar could go down, but his ability recover and regain position is what makes him unique.


The way Brock escaped and transitioned from being under Carwin back up to his feet was some text book collegiate wrestling. 50% of that execution was timing your opponents window of opportunity prior to exploding, those are great instincts. However, Brock projects his MMA TD's like a drive-in movie, but he's great at doing work once he's on the mat. His ground offensive know how is great. I think Cain has a better TD and TDD, I'll be curious to see how the two look battling on the ground. Hell, I'd love to see Cain and Lesnar in a strictly wrestling match.  

I'm certainly favoring Brock, but Cain is no joke. I'd be devastated if Cain won, but I wouldn't be shocked.


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## amoosenamedhank (Sep 2, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> The way Brock escaped and transitioned from being under Carwin back up to his feet was some text book collegiate wrestling. 50% of that execution was timing your opponents window of opportunity prior to exploding. Brock projects his MMA TD's like a drive-in movie, but he's great at doing work once in your on the mat. His ground offensive know how is great. I think Cain has a better TD and TDD, I'll be curious to see how the two look battling on the ground. Hell, I'd love to see Cain and Lesnar in a strictly wrestling match.
> 
> I'm certainly favoring Brock, but Cain is no joke. I'd be devastated if Cain won, but I wouldn't be shocked.


Sadly enough, I would love to see that Wrestling match as well. I really think this fight has just too many possibilities.

And this is why I love MMA. The matches are amazing and you never can truly predict the outcome (most of the time... there was that little thing called Toney vs Couture)


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

What about Brock's cardio? Iv'e never seen him gas or i just can't remember.

Brock Lesnar is a once in a lifetime athlete. He wants to be the best at what he does, and so far he has done it. At 116 we saw him being seriously in trouble at stand-up for the first time, and briefly after the event he called Pat Barry to train with him. Once again, we are going to see a better Brock Lesnar than the last time.

I'm taking Brock Lesnar via T(KO) at round 2.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Rauno said:


> What about Brock's cardio? Iv'e never seen him gas or i just can't remember.
> 
> *Brock Lesnar is a once in a lifetime athlete*. He wants to be the best at what he does, and so far he has done it. At 116 we saw him being seriously in trouble at stand-up for the first time, and briefly after the event he called Pat Barry to train with him. Once again, we are going to see a better Brock Lesnar than the last time.
> 
> I'm taking Brock Lesnar via T(KO) at round 2.


Have you forgotten about Chuck Norris!


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Cain is going to take the title and then we are all going to see the fight every true mma fan has been waiting for; Cain vs JDS.

I really dont understand any arguments which simply state; Brock is too big and strong for cain. When ever i hear this argument i just refer people to the Randy Couture fight. Randy a 46 year old man (a light heavy weight) who stuffed most of Brocks TD's and neutralised his wrestling and then when he did get taken down, got right back up to his feet.

Cain is younger than Couture, bigger, much faster and has better wrestling, thats why i think the argument is void.

People seem to think that Cain should be really worried about the take downs of Brock too. Brock doesnt set up his take downs, like people have already said, he just bullrushes for that big double leg. (Which Randy easily stuffed) Brock should be the one worried about getting taken down. Cain has a lower point of gravity, not only does he set up his take downs with strikes, but he scoops underneath his opponent and slams them. Look at the rothwell fight. I expect Cain to get underneath Brock and take him down.

Ive said it in many posts before, but i'll say it again, Cain outclasses Brock in every aspect of MMA here. Cain is so talented.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

amoosenamedhank said:


> Are you high? I mean seriously, first off you obviously have some sort of serious emotional issues if you get this worked up on the internet. Walk away from the keyboard you 'E-thug' wannabe.
> 
> Although you're not worth the finger effort it will take to spoon feed this to you, I will proceed none the less. As I already told you, the reason I quoted you had nothing to do with Carwin nor a comparison between his and Cain's stand up ability. I actually quoted you because I agreed with your ending statements, regarding the under-estimation of Brock's conditioning.
> 
> Now sit back, take another quaalude before you get yourself all over stimulated again.


Nice, revert to personal insults when confronted, I'm not the one worked up here, this is meant to be a civil discussion regarding mma. If anyone here is worked up it's obviously you, so you incorrectly assumed and got called out, get over it, next time don't be so quick to assume, you are so off the mark here ... well I'm not going to stoop to your level, I know you don't get it and I'm not going to explain your hypocrisy to you because you clearly aren't interested in a discussion, just get over it and let it go.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> Have you forgotten about Chuck Norris!


I decided not to put Chuck Norris in the same list with mortals.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

TraMaI said:


> Brock won't be shooting for 25 minutes. He might be able to shoot for 10 if Cain doesn't work his gut.
> 
> 
> Also, Cain via RNC late 3rd after stuffing Lesnar's animal shot and spinning to his back like it's cool.


 Gotta +rep that. Cain is paying very good odds to win via sub and ppl are sleeping on his BJJ game cuz they havent seen it. It is there.

Randy took Brocks back in similar fashion near the cage, i suspect Cain will be looking for the same technique. Brock WILL NOT be able to simply bully Cain to the mat, it wont happen.

He needs to bring something different. Cain is a beast anyways and now he is training all Brocks strengths and bad positions Brock can put him in.

What can Brock prepare for?? Better kicks, punches, handspeed, footwork, wrestling, TDs, transitions, agility, speed and technique than any fighter he has faced to this point. Preparing for Cain is an absolute nightmare, who do you bring in?? Nobody is like him.

Brocks trainer said something like "Brocks gotta bring in some fast kickboxers who can really grapple"...... wtf who fits that bill??

Cain Velasquez, JDS and Allistair Overeem?? I dont think they are gonna train with Brock. If you are a good kickboxer with great grappler or vice versa, you are likely top 10 or soon to be.

Brock knew exactly what to expect with Carwin, big power and sloppy boxing. He still couldnt deal with it.

He has no idea, hell, i have no idea, what to expect from Cain. He has so many options and a gastank capable of using so many gameplans and is only better, with more weapons everytime we see him.

I think Brock is gonna realize he is in way over his head pretty fast, so are his fans.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> He has no idea, hell, i have no idea, what to expect from Cain. He has so many options and a gastank capable of using so many gameplans and is only better, with more weapons everytime we see him.
> 
> I think Brock is gonna realize he is in way over his head pretty fast, so are his fans.




I really think it's going to be closer than that though. A lot of people have this as a one sided fight one way or another but in a fight with skills matching like they do here I don't see how anyone can be so certain, I would not take a bet on this one because of that. Cain has to stop Brock's takedown, can he do that? There's no way of knowing until it happens because you are very right in the aspect that there are very few people similar to Cain, but it goes the other way too, how many 265 pounders are out there that have elite wrestling ability and move like middleweights? I would side with you if Brock was slower but he's freakish in that aspect.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Gotta +rep that. Cain is paying very good odds to win via sub and ppl are sleeping on his BJJ game cuz they havent seen it. It is there.
> 
> Randy took Brocks back in similar fashion near the cage, i suspect Cain will be looking for the same technique. Brock WILL NOT be able to simply bully Cain to the mat, it wont happen.
> 
> ...


Absolutely spot on.

I can hear Goldie now;

"Are you kidding me Joe?!!! Cain Velasquez chokes out Brock Lesnar!!!"


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## Royce11 (Sep 11, 2010)

I like Cain but I think Brock wins.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Gotta +rep that. Cain is paying very good odds to win via sub and ppl are sleeping on his BJJ game cuz they havent seen it. It is there.
> 
> Randy took Brocks back in similar fashion near the cage, i suspect Cain will be looking for the same technique. Brock WILL NOT be able to simply bully Cain to the mat, it wont happen.


That's half the reason I called it like I did. Cain should be able to do the same thing Couture did and Mir had an opportunity to do (but has crap wrestling) because of how Lesnar shoots. Head down, arms wide, bullrush. Cain is WAY too good of a wrestler to fall for that shit. Also, RNCs are one of the easiest techniques to pull off in BJJ, if Cain is at this level and can't pull off an RNC I would facepalm, hard.





rabakill said:


> I really think it's going to be closer than that though. A lot of people have this as a one sided fight one way or another but in a fight with skills matching like they do here I don't see how anyone can be so certain, I would not take a bet on this one because of that. *Cain has to stop Brock's takedown, can he do that?* There's no way of knowing until it happens because you are very right in the aspect that there are very few people similar to Cain, but it goes the other way too, how many 265 pounders are out there that have elite wrestling ability and move like middleweights? I would side with you if Brock was slower but he's freakish in that aspect.


Randy did, multiple times. If Randy could I'm pretty sure Cain can. Cain has the edge on Lesnar in every aspect of this fight except for power and possibly wrestling (could be dead even, but we've seen even wrestling matches and they end up standing). Cain has FAR superior stand up IMO. It's cleaner, crisper and way, way faster than Lesnar or any of his opponents this far. I'm also half inclined to think Cain has more PUNCHING POWER than Lesnar. It might be more due to technique, but when you look at the Randy TKO (Lesnar) and the Nog KTFO (Cain, the Nog KTFO looks way, way more brutal, far more accurate, certainly faster and better set up and I think Nog still has a better chin than Randy. Plus Cain put him out cold and it took Brock a good 20 rabbit punches to get the stop on Randy. Cain's striking is more well rounded and harder to guess. I can assure you the Brock is going to come out, jab a couple times and then try to land that right cross. He does it in every fight and it's his "go-to combo" that's gotten way too predictable if you ask me. Also, Brock IS a quick HW, yes, but he also slows down very, very quicky. Cain is a quick HW too and rivals Brock in that department (I'm talking movement speed). As far as striking speed? Cain wins hands down. Brock throws strikes almost as slowly as Mir.


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## amoosenamedhank (Sep 2, 2009)

rabakill said:


> Nice, revert to personal insults when confronted, I'm not the one worked up here, this is meant to be a civil discussion regarding mma. If anyone here is worked up it's obviously you, so you incorrectly assumed and got called out, get over it, next time don't be so quick to assume, you are so off the mark here ... well I'm not going to stoop to your level, I know you don't get it and I'm not going to explain your hypocrisy to you because you clearly aren't interested in a discussion, just get over it and let it go.


I guess I'm not sure what you expect me to say boss. You've successful called out someone who wasn't disagreeing with you. How would you propose I argue with someone I wasnt disagreeing with in the first place? 

But it is cute that seem to think you possess some sort of higher enlighten sense of prescence. Believe me bub, if I felt like "discussing" a point of view with you I would. But you can pretend that you are an intimidating presence if that's what helps you get it up. 

But now that you've successfully capture my attention, let's go back an review our first encounter and lets see if there's something worth discussing... shall we?




amoosenamedhank said:


> Just because Carwin clipped him and sent him running doesn't mean everyone is going to have that kind of power to do so. I keep hearing "let's see how Cain handles the situation when Brock is hurt" Who says he's ever going to get the opportunity... I still stand by the theory no man walking this planet can take a clean shot to the jaw from Carwin... he's just a beast.
> 
> But agreeing with the end of your post... I think most people also forget how few fights Brock has had. They always seem to base what he will do from his last fight. Brock is still in that stage where every time you see him, he stands to improve greatly. It's not like he's over the peak of his prime and what you see is what you get.
> 
> He's been hit and he's been hit hard now... I don't think we'll see the tuck and run again... (unless he getting punched in the mouth by Carwin some more :thumb02: )


 So I'm not exactly sure were we went wrong here... but everything looks good on the western front so far. You said things like " think it will come down to Cain's game plan and what he does when he hurts Lesnar." and " If Cain manages to stuff the TD he will be able to land some shots, probably shots significant enough to hurt Brock."

My basic point being that I don't think Cain is going to find himself in a position where he's going to have the opportunity to put Brock down with strikes and attempt to finish the fight. 

After this, I basically agreed with your entire post... so once again, not seeing where has all come from.

Then for act 2 "Did I say Cain has Carwin's power? Cain is a heavyweight who has hurt people with has hands, hands that are faster than Lesnar's, that's all he needs to hurt Brock. To think Brock can walk through Cain's hardest punches unhurt is foolish. Carwin couldn't knock out Brock with one punch so obviously Cain won't, that's what combinations are for." 

So here is the point when things start getting strange. I never accused you of stating Cain had equal power to Lesnar, but you defended that point. I never stated Lesnar could take Cain's strongest punch while remaining undamaged, but you seemed to need to defend that point. And to wrap it all up you tell me power isn't what is going to knock Brock out, speed and combinations are... (why don't you tell me how many KO Michael Bisping has) So please enlighten us ol' wise one to the source of all of your anger?


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

either way, lets enjoy, the HW division has a few fun fights set up.

Everybody is just holding the belt til Mike "Hammerfist of Thor" Russow recovers.


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## amoosenamedhank (Sep 2, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> either way, lets enjoy, the HW division has a few fun fights set up.
> 
> Everybody is just holding the belt til Mike "Hammerfist of Thor" Russow recovers.


I couldn't agree more, it's a good time to be a UFC HW fan. I would like to see Overeem throw his name in the hat as well.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

So if Lesnar beats Cain dominately will any of you give him a chance against JDS or will it still be "JDS has all the answers for the holes in Lesnars game!!!!"


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## amoosenamedhank (Sep 2, 2009)

cdtcpl said:


> So if Lesnar beats Cain dominately will any of you give him a chance against JDS or will it still be "JDS has all the answers for the holes in Lesnars game!!!!"


I have noticed this trend as well... I asked this question before the Carwin fight and although I certainly wouldn't call it a "dominate" performance. He took one hell of an ass whooping, and still managed to finish the fight. 

I'm not sure Lesnar will ever get the credit simply because of his background.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

cdtcpl said:


> So if Lesnar beats Cain dominately will any of you give him a chance against JDS or will it still be "JDS has all the answers for the holes in Lesnars game!!!!"


Yeah this is what annoys me as well.. I think this is going to be a really tough fight for Brock, but he'll take it in the end. But I don't think he'll get full credit until he cleans out all the top contenders, and that means JDS as well. If he does that, even the haters will have no choice but to admit it.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Think everyone is in consensus here. This is a not a good fight to bet on especially since Cain is only favored by 
+130. If this ends by the first round I'd actually be surprised either way. I would like to see a five round war to see how both react to different situations and when's the last time we got see a HW bout go the distance. Pretty rare...


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

you Lesnar haters make me laugh.

No matter who Brock beats you never wanna give him any credit.

Lesnar wins in 2 rounds.


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## InAweOfFedor (Aug 13, 2008)

What a fight this is going to be!

I was revved up for Lesnar v Carwin and I loved that fight, coz it was the two biggest heavyweights going at it and both had skills that the other hadn't faced before, but Lesnar came out on top.

This time its a similar story but Cain offers supreme technique, a non-stop gas tank and plenty of speed which poses totally different problems for Lesnar.

Another super fight in my opinion, love him or hate him Lesnar has bred life back into the division and I love it.

I don't see Cain rocking Lesnar like Carwin did but I see him smashing his legs with kicks at every opportunity.

I'm also very interested to see if Cain tries to take the big cinderblock down if it gets to the later rounds.

I would love to see Cain push it to a 3rd, 4th or possibly a 5th round just to see what Lesnars cardio is really like.

Has Lesnar tightened up his striking? He would want to against Cain or he will be picked apart. If he can mix up his TD's with his striking and get Cain down then I don't see it lasting long.

Whoever wins I don't really mind I just wanna see an awesome fight, and then watch the winner beat the snot out of JDS.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

If Lesnar beats Cain, I for one will be hugely impressed. This fight is the one that'll clarify Lesnars abilities for me.

I never considered the Carwin fight too telling. We learned that Lesnar has heart. We also learned he really is a complete noob when it comes to dealing with getting punched in the head. Completely understandable considering how little sparring Brock has under his belt compared to the others. But mostly, we learned that Carwin has no gas.

To beat Cain would blow me away.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Soojooko said:


> If Lesnar beats Cain, I for one will be hugely impressed. This fight is the one that'll clarify Lesnars abilities for me.
> 
> I never considered the Carwin fight too telling. We learned that Lesnar has heart. *We also learned he really is a complete noob when it comes to dealing with getting punched in the head*. Completely understandable considering how little sparring Brock has under his belt compared to the others. But mostly, we learned that Carwin has no gas.
> 
> To beat Cain would blow me away.


*Everyone* is a complete noob when it comes to dealing with getting punched in the head by Shane Carwin and his horse roids. At least Lesnar survived, all others went to sleep within two minutes, and that includes behemoths like Gonzaga and Uber Mir, who I imagine have quite a bit of sparring under their belt.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> *Everyone* is a complete noob when it comes to dealing with getting punched in the head by Shane Carwin and his horse roids. At least Lesnar survived, all others went to sleep within two minutes, and that includes behemoths like Gonzaga and Uber Mir, who I imagine have quite a bit of sparring under their belt.


I dont disagree. I was talking about Lesnars inclination to turn away from his opponent instead if staying face on and using effective defence to protect himself. I've always imagined years of sparing and getting hit is the only way to train yourself to stay sure-footed and calm. I'm no fighter so accept that I might be talking nonsense.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

if Lesnar beats Cain ill call him the best HW in the world ATM.

As far as the Carwin punch, look the the GIF, he didnt get his hips behind it, and it didnt land flush. It was off balance and awkward.

Lesnars reaction was horrible for the whole sitution, he covered up not looking, when he got hit he acted like he got shot and ran around the ring.

If it connected flush, with Carwins hips behind it, Lesnar would have been asleep, like everybody else.

If that type of glancing shot from a very slow striker can scare him, im pretty sure the crazy combo speed of Cain will mentally mess him up too.

Ppl act like Carwin is some great striker, so since Brock beat him, he can beat any striker.

Carwin ISNT a striker, he is a wrestler with amazing butterbean like power and technique 
(that is to say, no technique at all).

If you cant last with a guy like him for half around without being tagged, i dont like the chances vs Cain or JDS tbh. 

Unless of course Brock can take them down, which is likely with JDS and not so likely with Cain imo


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

No_Mercy said:


> Think everyone is in consensus here. This is a not a good fight to bet on especially since Cain is only favored by
> +130. If this ends by the first round I'd actually be surprised either way. I would like to see a five round war to see how both react to different situations and when's the last time we got see a HW bout go the distance. Pretty rare...


that means Lesnar is favored. +130 means Cain is behind, it's weird I know, but +130 does mean nearly even.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

cdtcpl said:


> So if Lesnar beats Cain dominately will any of you give him a chance against JDS or will it still be "JDS has all the answers for the holes in Lesnars game!!!!"


Honestly, I'm saying this before this fight even happens, Brock's biggest weakness is his stand up. JDS' stand up is WAY better than Cain's IMO. His Boxing is just as fast and it has more power plus he mixes it up better and has better movement. I think JDS would have a better chance to beat Brock over Cain even if Cain does beat Brock. Also, I think Cain would beat JDS as well but that's due to stylistic reasons. I put them about the same level skill wise, but Cain seems to have more tools in the shed than JDS, even if JDS "has a stellar ground game" we haven't SEEN it. I don't think that "his next opponent always fills the gaps that his previous opponent left" per se, but it seems to be working out that way recently. Brock's weakness is his stand up. Carwin had better striking than Brock, Cain has better striking than Carwin and JDS has better striking then all of them IMO. 

So again, it's not so much that I'm discrediting Lesnar or trying to hop on the next guys bandwagon to beat him just say "TOLD YOU SO!", it just so happens that each Carwin, Cain and JDS are more refined going down the line in his biggest area of weakness IMO. It would be like this situation. Anderson Silva is fighting, let's say, Henders, Chael and then let's go with Fitch (just as good of a wrestler as Chael IMO, way better sub defense). Going down that line, each fighter is more proficient in the last in Silva's area of weakness, it's just a matter of "How good is good enough to beat him" in that area.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

JDS in all likelyhood has the worst TDD of all of them too, he isnt from a wrestling background.

i agree that JDS has shown us the best standup. I disagree about him being more diverse than Cain. JDS is VERY predictable, he throws 3 punches almost all the time, he doesnt have great head movement (the reason CC and even Roy caught him a few times with counters) or footwork.

He also tends to get tired and start throwing arm punches.

Cains biggest asset standing is his diversity from kicks, punches, combos, high/low striking to TDs, clinch work etc. His weakness is JDS' strength, power punching while standing in the pocket. Cain has to work on his head movement but its better since the Kongo fight, much better.

Both are highly accurate, which is the worst news for Brock. Cain and JDS are at the top of the strikes landed vs strikes recieved category for a reason. 

Cain literally hits ppl the most and gets hit the least, in the history of MMA.

Now he is facing probably the worst striker he has faced......

I really think ppl arent seeing Cains standup for what it is, accurate and fast. Its alot like Frankie Edgar but at HW with HW power (not extreme HW power but 7 TKOs in 8 fights means power, ask Kongo when he could barely standup at the end of the fight if Cain has "pillow fists).

Anyways, Cain vs JDS is where it is at!!!!! i think Cain would take it but wow. You are talking about the two fastest, accurate well rounded HWs in the UFC going at it!! im already getting pumped thinking about it!!

big bully Brock gonna try and ruin my dream  if he can TD and control either Cain or JDS, they are both in big trouble.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> JDS in all likelyhood has the worst TDD of all of them too, he isnt from a wrestling background.
> 
> i agree that JDS has shown us the best standup. I disagree about him being more diverse than Cain. JDS is VERY predictable, he throws 3 punches almost all the time, he doesnt have great head movement (the reason CC and even Roy caught him a few times with counters) or footwork.
> 
> ...


I think JDS would (possibly!) be in less trouble than Cain if he gets put on his back due to his background in BJJ with the Nogs. BJJ fighters generally fare better off their backs than wrestlers. Not necessarily because of better/more techniques but because it's a far more familiar position. Wrestlers are taught "When you're on you back get the **** up at any cost!" but in BJJ we teach to chill out, neutralize, then find a way out and it generally leads to less mistakes and less face punching. 

That's all, of course, if JDS really has a solid ground game like we've heard.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

TraMaI said:


> I think JDS would (possibly!) be in less trouble than Cain if he gets put on his back due to his background in BJJ with the Nogs. BJJ fighters generally fare better off their backs than wrestlers. Not necessarily because of better/more techniques but because it's a far more familiar position. Wrestlers are taught "When you're on you back get the **** up at any cost!" but in BJJ we teach to chill out, neutralize, then find a way out and it generally leads to less mistakes and less face punching.
> 
> That's all, of course, if JDS really has a solid ground game like we've heard.


 i have no reason to believe that, Camirillo (SP) is a fine BJJ coach and Cain won No-Gi blue belt world championship.

Basing on how technical Cain is standing and in his wrestling game, i would assume it crosses over to Jitz. JDS makes the same assumption in the article.

Either way, neither guy wants to be on his back vs Brock for very long. Mir is much more accomplished grappler than both of them and couldnt work a damn thing. Wrestlers are often hard to keep down anyways.

The key will Cain using his Jitz + wrestling to create scrambles back to his feet if it happens (and it very likely will happen at some point).

Same key for JDS and that kid is strong for sure. The one problem i could forsee is Nog BJJ isnt known for using the BJJ to get back up, create scrambles etc etc so im not sure how great JDS is at that. 

I know Cain is the king of scrambles, he induces them like crazy from the top cuz he always gets position, does punishment and takes the guy down again. Its a very AKA technique that both Fitch and Kos use at times too, along with Gorilla BJJ.

Im not sure how comfortable Cain will be scrambling from the bottom of a 270 pound wrestler but im sure he is probably doing just show with Ellis or Cormier (or Olmypic wrestlers Cormier brings in) as we speak.

Either way. Yes, alot of questions about how Cain and JDS would do off their backs but the best soluttion is obv not ending up there, which Cain has a much better shot of accomplishing imo

btw, doesnt blackhouse always say so and so has wicked BJJ we have never seen?? JDS, Aldo and that dude that lost to a no name by sub... damn i need to look up his name... but anyways, you get my point, see it to believe it.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

*...Excellent analogy by JDS...*

...Very good analysis of the fighters. Junior seems to have a good grip on what he might face. I've been hoping for a JDS/Cain fight for a long while. It would be an incredible fight. After seeing Lesnar withstand that amazing punishment by Carwin, Cain certainly has his work cut out for him. I don't see Brock getting KO'd. Velasquez needs to do what he does best--kickbox. 
...Cain will have to be very elusive and chop Lesnar's legs out from under him and break him down quickly if he hopes to win. I doubt Cain will be able to stuff Brock's takedown attempts like Carwin did. As JDS said when Brock gets on top of you it's hard to get out. If Lesnar shoots out of the gate and takes Cain down, Velasquez will be in major trouble. A fresh Lesnar on top is the worst nightmare you can face. Brock will be in his best shape ever. He will hold you down, grind and pound at you with his monster hands. Cain must not get put on his back. CV needs to use everything in his toolbox to win. On the feet it's Cain's fight. On the ground, it's Lesnar's fight...


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## hatedcellphones (Dec 7, 2009)

cdtcpl said:


> So if Lesnar beats Cain dominately will any of you give him a chance against JDS or will it still be "JDS has all the answers for the holes in Lesnars game!!!!"


Here's my thing about Lesnar. I don't think he's really that good of a fighter. Not because he did pro wrestling or because I'm jumping on some hater bandwagon, but I believe a lot of his success is based on his size. I mean this is a guy who has to actually cut weight to get to 265. We've seen that his standup technique is crap, and his takedowns aren't the best, but they're successful because he can basically muscle any guy onto the ground. and once a guy that massive has a hold of you you're screwed. He will hold you down and beat your face in until the ref stops the fight. That's why he's a dominant champ. I don't think he's a good p4p fighter at all. If he suddenly got hit with some kind of shrink ray and had to fight in the light heavyweight or middleweight division, I think he'd get eaten alive.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

hatedcellphones said:


> Here's my thing about Lesnar. I don't think he's really that good of a fighter. Not because he did pro wrestling or because I'm jumping on some hater bandwagon, but I believe a lot of his success is based on his size. I mean this is a guy who has to actually cut weight to get to 265. We've seen that his standup technique is crap, and his takedowns aren't the best, but they're successful because he can basically muscle any guy onto the ground. and once a guy that massive has a hold of you you're screwed. He will hold you down and beat your face in until the ref stops the fight. That's why he's a dominant champ. I don't think he's a good p4p fighter at all. If he suddenly got hit with some kind of shrink ray and had to fight in the light heavyweight or middleweight division, I think he'd get eaten alive.


Too bad there isn't some sort of shrink ray in real life, and this theoretical p4p stuff doesn't matter at all. MMA is about finding out who the toughest guy in the room is, and right now it looks like Brock Lesnar.

This whole it's only because he's big argument is the oldest anti-Brock argument but it's already been dismantled so many times:

1. If size were everything, the sport would've been ruled by the Zulus and Sapps since the very beginning. Guess what, it wasn't, and Brock is really only one of a handful of people who managed to be this skillful with their size. That to me is a whole lot more impressive than some flyweight whose frantic speed because of malnutritive lack of mass counts as more skill.

2. When doing this magical p4p thing, people always assume "skillful" guys at lighter weights would somehow maintain their speed and mobility when they bulk up like a rhino, but a guy like Brock hit with a shrink ray would somehow not gain the speed and mobility that comes with lower bulk. Talk about bias. I'd like to see Aldo move half as fast as Brock does if he were 275 lbs, or have half his gas tank. No other huge guy is that quick and athletic.

3. Brock works damn hard for that size. It's not like some kind of unfair handicap like he's bringing a shotgun to the cage, but people always act like it is. If you don't like it, you can bulk up too ... and then you'll figure out like Frank Mir did, it's not just about the size, it's about how you use it. Maybe Brock has some genetic predisposition to be bigger, but he still has to work damn hard to stay there; I don't see people grudging those who were born with a tendency to be naturally fast or athletic, then why against those who are born with a tendency to be big or strong?

4. Not skilled? In 6 fights, Lesnar has finished once with a KO on the feet, once by a beautiful and rare submission, once by GnP TKO, once by dishing out a dominating 3 rd beating and showing his cardio ... what else does one want? He's shown the entire spectrum of MMA skills in just his first 6 freaking fights. This is an NCAA div-I champ with tremendous wrestling, good standup, great cardio/athleticism, and now great subs ... he is as skilled a martial artist as they come. This isn't Bob Sapp or HMC.



Soojooko said:


> I dont disagree. I was talking about Lesnars inclination to turn away from his opponent instead if staying face on and using effective defence to protect himself. I've always imagined years of sparing and getting hit is the only way to train yourself to stay sure-footed and calm. I'm no fighter so accept that I might be talking nonsense.


Well I agree too, it's true to an extent. But no matter how much you train, if you get hit hard enough or get rocked then survival instinct kicks in. At that point it's more important to just survive than to maintain calm and fire back. Staying calm and sure-footed in the face of a barrage is good, but staying calm, sure-footed and retaliating when rocked can be suicidal. It's better to just cover up, get the hell out, dive in for a desperate sloppy takedown, pull guard or whatever; anything that gets you a few seconds to recover.


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## EVERLOST (May 28, 2007)

I dont understand what the debate over all this is. Brock sucks, Cain sucks. I hope Cain dies in the center of the Octagon. Then JDS can come in and take the belt and fight Carwin. Im so tired of this Brock/ Cain crap. Cain might win but he is gonna lose that tital as fast as he got it. We already have a wrestler champ thats boring as shit ( GSP) why do we need another. Also that BROWN PRIDE thing is ridiculous. Im indian, am I brown not so much, but its so stupid. I rooted for Carwin, Couture, Herring,and Mir, this is the first fight im rooting for Brock. Probably be the only fight i ever root for him too.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Brock will lose to Cain. His only advantage in this fight is his power. Everything else Cain wins at.

I said it once and I'll say it again. The first guy to beat Brock will be my new favorite fighter. Even if it is a guy with Brown Pride tatted on his chest...


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## hatedcellphones (Dec 7, 2009)

Sorry, I was kinda tired when I wrote that and left out some important stuff. I didn't give Brock enough credit for his wrestling ability. He does know how to use his mass to impose his will on his opponents on the ground, but that size DOES give him an advantage. He is a fantastic athlete in that he's fast for his size and has a good gas tank even though he's so big. And he's proven that he can take quite an ass kicking and still get up in the Carwin fight. My pet peeve is how awkward he looks on his feet. Until he cleans that up a little bit, he won't be a really well rounded fighter.

And I think some of it might be genetic. I remember Joe Rogan said something like "Its like vikings f***ed vikings for centuries, and then this motherf***er in the woods of Minnesota somehow got the best of all of it." 

So in short: Fantastic athlete. Absolute beast. Needs a little polishing until I consider him truly great.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> I dont disagree. I was talking about Lesnars inclination to turn away from his opponent instead if staying face on and using effective defence to protect himself. I've always imagined years of sparing and getting hit is the only way to train yourself to stay sure-footed and calm. I'm no fighter so accept that I might be talking nonsense.


I've fought for years and your completely right. It takes time to learn to keep calm and watch and protect yourself when your under assault, the more power you feel, the more stressful the situation becomes, hence Brocks reaction. But a guy with a lot of experience striking, would no way cover up and turn away like he did.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

Liddellianenko said:


> 4. Not skilled? In 6 fights, Lesnar has finished once with a KO on the feet, once by a beautiful and rare submission, once by GnP TKO, once by dishing out a dominating 3 rd beating and showing his cardio ... what else does one want? He's shown the entire spectrum of MMA skills in just his first 6 freaking fights. This is an NCAA div-I champ with tremendous wrestling, good standup, great cardio/athleticism, and now great subs ... he is as skilled a martial artist as they come. This isn't Bob Sapp or HMC.


There is a divide between the fanbase.

1. Rational logical thinking people who enjoy the sport for what it is

2. Nuthuggers or haters who will defend/degrade a fighter no matter how illogical it seems

Seriously, there's no point defending Lesnar. He's the undisputed champion with a large skillset and incredible athleticism, anyone who disagrees is obviously not in the first group. Don't argue with the other half, no matter how logical you think you are being it does not matter, they don't listen to reason. Most people never cheer for goliath anyways, so Brock's an easy guy to hate for a lot of people.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Speed and technique vs Size and strength. I know what im going with


More like Speed and technique vs Size and Strength and Speed and Technique

I know what I'm going with


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

thats nonsense, Brock doesnt have good technique.

not even for wrestling, his forte. and he knows it and admits he. he is a "back to the basics" wrestler who relies on size and strength greatly, not a techical wrestler like Cain that relies on speed and technique.

Brock doesnt have much technique in any area but he makes up for it with gorilla strength and great cardio.

As far speeD?? Brock is very fast for his size, he still isnt as fast as Cain laterally, which is the most important type of speed for MMA, not straight line speed.

Same for NFL, which is a big reason his coaches said Lesnar didnt make it, lack of football smarts and lateral speed which is crucial to play defense in the NFL.

Brock has enough technique to get him by and nothing more. Cain is all technique.

Watch them both, striking or grappling and its like night and day.

For example watch their TDs. Cain chain wrestles from double to single, to ankle pick, to throws to trips all while buzzing around you from different angles.

Brock has a huge double leg, if it doesnt work?? he backs off.

both have proven to be very effective, one is pure speed and technique, one is raw power and strength.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> thats nonsense, Brock doesnt have good technique.
> 
> not even for wrestling, his forte. and he knows it and admits he. he is a "back to the basics" wrestler who relies on size and strength greatly, not a techical wrestler like Cain that relies on speed and technique.
> 
> ...


Some one give this man a medal.


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Brock is big.

He's also very, very, fast.

I don't know where the myth Brock is "slow" came from.

Its a myth. Its not real.


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## Jmac91 (Jun 17, 2009)

LOL at JDS. Brock is not only bigger and stronger then Cain but he also has just as good as conditioning. He's too big and that will definitely hurt Cain's endurance, when a guy is that big and that strong it will make the smaller guy get tired a lot faster. Hell, wrestling is all about conditioning and Cain would have got whooped by Brock in college. 

JDS would not beat either of them and he is kidding himself if he actually thinks he stands a chance against Brock. He would get taken down and pounded out quicker then ******* Mir.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> thats nonsense, Brock doesnt have good technique.
> 
> not even for wrestling, his forte. and he knows it and admits he. he is a "back to the basics" wrestler who relies on size and strength greatly, not a techical wrestler like Cain that relies on speed and technique.
> 
> ...





Mckeever said:


> Some one give this man a medal.


Here here! I second this! Pro repped for greatness!


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Rauno said:


> ..At 116 we saw him being seriously in trouble at stand-up for the first time, and briefly after the event he called Pat Barry to train with him. ...


Hmm. Hadn't heard that. Very interesting. Barry's one of the best HW kickers, and a very good all around striker, which may neutralize one of Cain's best weapons. But he doesn't have the wrestling dimension Cain adds to it. But seems like a good move on Lesnar's part. It show's he's respecting his striking.




E Lit Er Ate said:


> thats nonsense, Brock doesnt have good technique.


Brock doesn't have good wrestling technique? How does one dominate the Big 10 with pure strength and no technique? I can understand criticizing his mma standup, etc., but wrestling technique? Seriously, what are you guys passing around? 
:smoke01:


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## Can.Opener (Apr 8, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> thats nonsense, Brock doesnt have good technique.
> 
> not even for wrestling, his forte. and he knows it and admits he. he is a "back to the basics" wrestler who relies on size and strength greatly, not a techical wrestler like Cain that relies on speed and technique.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. The thing is I still think Cain has only a marginal chance of victory. Even a guy as skilled and technical as Cain won't be able to make up the immense size and strength advantage Brock enjoys in every fight. He's the biggest bully on the planet.

The dude is not normal.


----------



## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Can.Opener said:


> Completely agree. The thing is I still think Cain has only a marginal chance of victory. Even a guy as skilled and technical as Cain won't be able to make up the immense size and strength advantage Brock enjoys in every fight. He's the biggest bully on the planet.
> 
> The dude is not normal.


I beg to differ. I've never been so confident that Brock will lose. The only advantage that Brock has going into this fight is size and power. Cain has better wrestling, striking, jitz, and cardio. Cain has 10 times the shot that Carwin did.... and we all saw what Carwin did to Brock.

Game over. The freak show that was Brock is done.


----------



## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> I beg to differ. I've never been so confident that Brock will lose. The only advantage that Brock has going into this fight is size and power. Cain has better wrestling, striking, jitz, and cardio. Cain has 10 times the shot that Carwin did.... and we all saw what Carwin did to Brock.
> 
> Game over. The freak show that was Brock is done.


And you said the exact same thing about Carwin. Loudly and at great length. Then you bitched about Carwin losing to him. Loudly and at great length. Now Cain is the perfect answer you say. Loudly and at great length.

*Warning: Troll*


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Can.Opener said:


> Completely agree. The thing is I still think Cain has only a marginal chance of victory. Even a guy as skilled and technical as Cain won't be able to make up the immense size and strength advantage Brock enjoys in every fight. He's the biggest bully on the planet.
> 
> The dude is not normal.


Brock Lesnar vs Randy Couture, watch it.


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Anyone who thinks Lesnar is going to walk through Valasquez is delusional. The dude KO'd Nog with ease and did it more impressively than anyone to date. He's also the younger hungrier fighter. This is a huge factor. Look at the strides he's making with each new fight. 

And this stuff about Lesnar just bullying his way through the HW's is stupid at best. It just doesn't work like that in mma. If you're the champ, you ain't just overpowering people. Lesnar is a great D1 Big Ten champion. You don't get there winging it on athleticism.


----------



## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

deadmanshand said:


> And you said the exact same thing about Carwin. Loudly and at great length. Then you bitched about Carwin losing to him. Loudly and at great length. Now Cain is the perfect answer you say. Loudly and at great length.
> 
> *Warning: Troll*


No actually. That's you putting words into my mouth. I clearly said that if Carwin didn't KO Brock, Carwin would lose. After Carwin lost I explained that he exposed a MAJOR weakness in Brock's game. Brock nuthuggers like yourself got upset and called me a troll when in fact it was merely the truth.

Also, where did all of this "loudly and great strength" bullshit come from? It's an internet forum dude, not a social circle. LOL that you take it this seriously.

LOL at the troll remark. It seems if you utter a peep against the almighty Brock you're a troll. Yeah. Then there's those of us who know about MMA.



Mckeever said:


> Brock Lesnar vs Randy Couture, watch it.


I have watched it. Randy has been past his time for many years now. Brock beating him means next to nothing considering he hasn't looked good in years.


----------



## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Its gonna be a great fight. I will give crazy props to Brock if he can pull this one off. Cain has that intensity and that look in his eyes..... you just know he is gonna be hard to beat, your gonna have to put him completely to sleep, he isnt gassing and he isnt tapping, i dont see it happening.

Carwin proved he can hang with Brock, i dont know why i always see Brock fans acting like he proved he is way above and beyond Carwin and he isnt a threat anymore or that anybody that thought Carwin would win is a moron.

Brock looked like a scared little kid, in all honesty. It was an amazing split second morph from Vanilla Gorilla to scared bully. I found it quite amazing and give him props for mentally getting himself together and hanging in. Altho Carwin had more than ample opportunity to put him away.


----------



## Can.Opener (Apr 8, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> Brock Lesnar vs Randy Couture, watch it.


You are referring to the part where the huge strong guy beat the faster technical guy?


----------



## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Can.Opener said:


> You are referring to the part where the huge strong guy beat the faster technical guy?


If you are comparing Cain to Couture it's not even remotely similar.

Cain is in the peak of his career. Has better striking, wrestling, jitz, and cardio than Brock. Cain has also proved he can man handle bigger and stronger opponents. Couture has not looked the same since he came out of retirement. He has wins over guys like Toney and Coleman... and a controversial decision against Vera. And people want to make it seem like he's even remotely similar to Cain??? Keep living that dream.


----------



## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> If you are comparing Cain to Couture it's not even remotely similar.
> 
> Cain is in the peak of his career. Has better striking, *wrestling*, jitz, and cardio than Brock. Cain has also proved he can man handle bigger and stronger opponents. Couture has not looked the same since he came out of retirement. He has wins over guys like Toney and Coleman... and a controversial decision against Vera. And people want to make it seem like he's even remotely similar to Cain??? Keep living that dream.


Velasquez was born on July 28, 1982 in Salinas, California to Efrain and Isabel Velasquez, two Mexican immigrants. Cain credits his father Efrain, who came to the United States with no money or job and still managed to support his family.[14]

He graduated from Kofa High School, where he went *110-10 from competing in Wrestling for four years in Kofa and won the 5A Arizona Wrestling Championship twice.* Cain also played football for three years, and was the captain of his Wrestling and Football team in his senior year.[15]


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brock Lesnar


Brock Lesnar was raised on a farm in Webster, South Dakota. He took up weightlifting in grade school, and got into amateur wrestling in high school. His senior year, he recorded an undefeated record of 33-0. Up next for Lesnar was college, and he chose the small Bismarck Junior College in North Dakota over other prospects. Lesnar immediately made a name for himself, winning the heavyweight division in the North Dakota State University's annual Bison Open Tournament in 1997. Lesnar, representing Bismarck in the tournament, defeated Brent Boeschans from the University of Minnesota, which was an upset given what a powerhouse the University of Minnesota was in the amateur wrestling world. The next year, Lesnar again won the Bison Open, and also became the NJCAA (National Junior College Athletic Association) wrestling champion in the heavyweight division. Lesnar's life would change however when Bismarck Junior College was forced to cut its wrestling program due to financial reasons after the 1997-98 season. Lesnar was quickly recruited by the University of Minnesota, and transferred schools in order to continue his wrestling career. He'd amassed an impressive 56-3 record in two years with Bismarck.

It didn't take Lesnar long to make a name for himself as a Minnesota Gopher. He went 24-1 his first year in Minnesota, his only loss coming against Trent Hynek from the University of Minnesota's rival, Iowa State. He also won the Big Ten title for Minnesota, ending Iowa State's 25-year winning streak at that tournament. Iowa State would get revenge at the NCAA tournament however. Lesnar lost in the finals by 3-2 decision to Stephen Neal of Cal State-Bakersfield, enabling Iowa State to win the tournament overall. Despite a successful season (Big Ten title, runner-up at NCAA tournament, All American), Lesnar wasn't satisfied. He wanted the NCAA title.

In 2000, Lesnar continued to impress. He posted a 26-1 record (his sole loss came against Wes Hand from Iowa State) and was ranked #1 in the Big Ten. He went on to the NCAA tournament where he dominated the opposition en route to realizing a dream and becoming the NCAA Heavyweight Champion. Ironically enough, he defeated Iowa State's Wes Hand in the finals of the tournament.

Lesnar graduated from the University of Minnesota in 2000, ending a stellar amateur wrestling career.* He'd gone 50-2 in two years in Minnesota, making him 106-5 overall in four years of college. He won the NCAA heavyweight title, and was a two-time All American.*

-----------------------------------------------------------
Your assesment of how much better a wrestler Velasquez is over Lesnar, is at best *Laughable*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvu0E8RNmcs&search=brock lesnar


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

PheelGoodInc said:


> No actually. That's you putting words into my mouth. I clearly said that if Carwin didn't KO Brock, Carwin would lose. After Carwin lost I explained that he exposed a MAJOR weakness in Brock's game. Brock nuthuggers like yourself got upset and called me a troll when in fact it was merely the truth.
> 
> Also, where did all of this "loudly and great strength" bullshit come from? It's an internet forum dude, not a social circle. LOL that you take it this seriously.
> 
> ...


I told can opener to watch it, i didnt mean you lol.

I told him to watch it to prove the lesnars sheer size and strength wasnt really much of a factor against little Randy. He beat Randy via his reach. His wrestling and strength how ever, Couture completley neutralised.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

raymel1 said:


> Velasquez was born on July 28, 1982 in Salinas, California to Efrain and Isabel Velasquez, two Mexican immigrants. Cain credits his father Efrain, who came to the United States with no money or job and still managed to support his family.[14]
> 
> He graduated from Kofa High School, where he went *110-10 from competing in Wrestling for four years in Kofa and won the 5A Arizona Wrestling Championship twice.* Cain also played football for three years, and was the captain of his Wrestling and Football team in his senior year.[15]
> 
> ...


Wrestling credentials arnt every thing. From having watched all of brocks and cains fights, it looks like cain has got better MMA wrestling.

Compare Cain vs Rothwell to Brock vs Herring, you'll see what i mean.


----------



## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...Bottom line- Cain has all the tools to win but he _*must*_ execute his kick/punch combos, keep moving laterally at all times, *keep the fight on the feet*, pick Brock apart from the outside and chop away at his lead leg dragging him into deep water. A very gigantic task to say the least.
I honestly think that Cain's awesome legkicks are the biggest key to victory weakening Brock's massive shot. As I said before, if Lesnar comes out and plows through Cain with a early takedown, Velasquez is in for a long night. Brock will not let him up, staying chest to chest and will sap Cain's energy pounding away with his massive size & strength...


----------



## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

yes cain is much more skilled, he has many tools but none that can finish brock, cain wont put brock to sleep and wont submit him and after the carwin fight im sure refs will only stop the fight if brock is actually out

in other words, either cain wins by UD or gets crushed and i just cant imagine someone going the distance with brock, hes just an animal and always tries to finish the fight as fast as possible, if cain keeps stuffing brocks TDs brock will just trade with him, and while cain is faster and more precise i still think brock would end up catching him with those huge fists

ppl think lesnar will just run away as soon as he gets hit, he ran away from carwin because he knew the type of power that carwin had, he was smart, if you get tagged by carwin you should run away or else its good night, he wasnt afraid to trade with randy and he wont be afraid to train with cain, especially after the carwin fight. No doubt brocks confidence in his chin went waaay up...if he cant take cain down he will trade with him

and when that happens cain might light him up 20 times every 10 seconds but brock will get that one punch in that will put him down and brock will just finish with hammer fists

great example is the joe soto fight vs warren...brock will be warren and thats it:thumb02:...cain will light him up a lot be he wont be able to hang in there trading and dodge every strike from lesnar or TD attempts for all 5 rounds...i just dont see it

though that being said cain is amazing, if he was bigger i think he would beat brock easily, and he does have a chance at beating him, i will be surprised if he can take brock down...im really interested in this fight and i actually hope cain wins because im a bigger fan of his to be honest but i just dont see him winning


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

raymel1 said:


> Velasquez was born on July 28, 1982 in Salinas, California to Efrain and Isabel Velasquez, two Mexican immigrants. Cain credits his father Efrain, who came to the United States with no money or job and still managed to support his family.[14]
> 
> He graduated from Kofa High School, where he went *110-10 from competing in Wrestling for four years in Kofa and won the 5A Arizona Wrestling Championship twice.* Cain also played football for three years, and was the captain of his Wrestling and Football team in his senior year.[15]
> 
> ...


Whats laughable is your knowledge of wrestling as it applies to MMA. College wrestling and UFC wrestling are two completely different things.

By your logic, GSP's wrestling is "laughable" because he has no college record... where as Hughes was a big time college wrestler. Ask Hughes how that turned out for him.

Cain has shown he is a FAR more technical MMA wrestler than Brock. Brock has shown good top control, but merely bull rushes for takedowns. That doesn't work against another wrestler of similar or better caliber. Brock's wrestling will be fully nullified by Cain.... and Cain wins every other category.


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

PheelGoodInc said:


> ..Cain has shown he is a FAR more technical MMA wrestler than Brock.....


Huh? Cain has barely used his wrestling in the vast majority of his fights. I can't see how you guys are making a comparison to GSP who actually uses wrestling often. :confused02: And from those few fights where he wrestled you've concluded he's a more technical wrestler than Lesnar? Sorry guys, just objectively reading this thread I'd say you're reaching. Just leave it be. Lesnar's a great wrestler.


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Cain has shown he is a FAR more technical MMA wrestler than Brock. Brock has shown good top control, but merely bull rushes for takedowns. That doesn't work against another wrestler of similar or better caliber. Brock's wrestling will be fully nullified by Cain.... and Cain wins every other category.


whatever you' smoking, you should package and sell.

Lesnar Round 2 win by submission...


----------



## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Huh? Cain has barely used his wrestling in the vast majority of his fights. I can't see how you guys are making a comparison to GSP who actually uses wrestling often. :confused02: And from those few fights where he wrestled you've concluded he's a more technical wrestler than Lesnar? Sorry guys, just objectively reading this thread I'd say you're reaching. Just leave it be. Lesnar's a great wrestler.


I'm not saying Cains wrestling is GSP level. I was merely using GSP as an example for the guy who said that Brocks wrestling is better because he had a better college record.

Cain has extremely technical mma wrestling. He changes position, levels, legs, uses strikes, and the cage for takedowns. Look at his footwork and timing. It's great for those who know the intricacies and skillset involved of wrestling. 

Brock bull rushes for takedowns. Carwin (who has less wrestling than Cain) was able to stop the TD's until Carwin completely gassed.

Lesnar does have great top control though. Thats how he finishes most of his fights. Good top control, and hard punches. 

Cain has better overall mma wrestling.



raymel1 said:


> whatever you' smoking, you should package and sell.
> 
> Lesnar Round 2 win by submission...


LOL. Lesnar hits one extremely basic sub on someone who flat out quit, and now he's going to sub a guy who hasn't been subbed yet? Don't bet the farm on that one.


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> I'm not saying Cains wrestling is GSP level. I was merely using GSP as an example for the guy who said that Brocks wrestling is better because he had a better college record.
> 
> Cain has extremely technical mma wrestling. He changes position, levels, legs, uses strikes, and the cage for takedowns. Look at his footwork and timing. It's great for those who know the intricacies and skillset involved of wrestling.
> 
> ...


Carwin hadnt been made to TAPOUT either.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

when Cain huggery meets Brock hatred. :sarcastic09:


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Whats laughable is your knowledge of wrestling as it applies to MMA. College wrestling and UFC wrestling are two completely different things.
> 
> By your logic, GSP's wrestling is "laughable" because he has no college record... where as Hughes was a big time college wrestler. Ask Hughes how that turned out for him.
> 
> Cain has shown he is a FAR more technical MMA wrestler than Brock. Brock has shown good top control, but merely bull rushes for takedowns. That doesn't work against another wrestler of similar or better caliber. Brock's wrestling will be fully nullified by Cain.... and Cain wins every other category.


yeah it also seems to me that the bigger they get the less technical they are wrestling. And if i remember correctly despite brock's size randy was out wrestling him however just got caught buy those giant hands brock has. cain has better wrestling than brock but the question is. is it good enough to overcome the size advantage and can he stop brock from taking him down early?


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

americanfighter said:


> ...And if i remember correctly despite brock's size randy was out wrestling him...


You guys are nuts. Randy got taken down several times, never took Brock down, never had any kind of top position and never won a round.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

americanfighter said:


> yeah it also seems to me that the bigger they get the less technical they are wrestling. And if i remember correctly despite brock's size randy was out wrestling him however just got caught buy those giant hands brock has. cain has better wrestling than brock but the question is. is it good enough to overcome the size advantage and can he stop brock from taking him down early?


Just to clarify, Randy wasn't winning the wrestling game, but the clinch game he gave Brock a hard time (possibly winning it). But if anything that proves the different styles of wrestling. Randy does Greco style wrestling which is about clinching and Lesnar did freestyle wrestling.

Everyone knows that Randy has a wicked clinch game, that he can tie up a man who out-weighed him by 60lbs is not surprising considering he has been Greco wrestling most of his life.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Calminian said:


> You guys are nuts. Randy got taken down several times, never took Brock down, never had any kind of top position and never won a round.


 Brock never took down and controlled Randy, Randy got up easily everytime and i believe Brock only got him down 2x and got stuffed 2x.

Randy took Brocks back (which is a domiant position) and he was about to take down Brock and Brock grabbed the fence.

Brock decided to stand and bang with Randy because he couldnt TD and control him, which he tried several times and was wasting alot of energy doing so.

I agree Brock won the 1st round but it was obvious Randy was making him work way harder than he wanted to and messing up his gameplan a bit.

Grabbing the fence was just that, he would have been taken down.

I would LOVE if Cain had a similar 1st round with Brock. Make Brock work, use your hips and speed to get up if taken down, get good positions on Brock etc but Cain has better standup to boot.

If he can have a similar round in the 1st, Brock is in big trouble, if Brock decides to stand and bang with Cain like he did with Randy, he is in even bigger trouble.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Brock never took down and controlled Randy, Randy got up easily everytime and i believe Brock only got him down 2x and got stuffed 2x.
> 
> Randy took Brocks back (which is a domiant position) and he was about to take down Brock and Brock grabbed the fence.
> 
> ...


and why do you assume that? its exactly what i mentioned before, if brock fails to TD cain then he will just trade with him, and even though his striking was pretty pathetic against randy i bet is has improves A LOT by now, brock is evolving more and more

but thats not the point, even with poor striking against cain, what can cain really do to brock? he can keep hitting him all he wants hes not going to knock brock out, during those exchanges at one point or another those huge ''lunchbox'' fists will connect with cain and even though it wont KO him im betting it will put him down a la randy so brock can finish with some nice donkey kong hammerfists

cain is faster, sure, hes a million times faster than randy and has a million times more technique but that doesnt matter, he cant KO brock

it will be soto vs warren HW version, but i really do hope im wrong because cain vs JDS is the dream match at HW right now for meraise01:


----------



## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

huh?? what magical world do you live in where letting a 240 pound man drop lightning fast combos on your chin doesnt hurt you??

i dont know how to respond. if you simply think Brock can eat everything Cain can throw then fine.... i dont know what to say.

He doesnt need to KO Brock with one shot. This isnt a video game. You take a bunch of fast shots, you go down. Its the same for EVERY man alive.

Your acting like Brock is Mark Hunt back in the day?? Why?? Cuz he took an off balance uppercut that didnt land flush from Carwin and ranaway??

Or was it the 100 shots on his forearms??

I midaswell make some arguement like... Cain took Kongos biggest shots, back to back in succession right on the jaw.... Brock cant hurt Cain.....

but i know in reality, any HW can hurt any HW. Cain has finished 7 of 8 fights and Kongo has been finished by TKO once in over 20.....

Kongo also could barely stand at the end of that fight.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

ACTAFOOL said:


> and why do you assume that? its exactly what i mentioned before, if brock fails to TD cain then he will just trade with him, and even though his striking was pretty pathetic against randy i bet is has improves A LOT by now, brock is evolving more and more
> 
> but thats not the point, even with poor striking against cain, what can cain really do to brock? he can keep hitting him all he wants hes not going to knock brock out, during those exchanges at one point or another those huge ''lunchbox'' fists will connect with cain and even though it wont KO him im betting it will put him down a la randy so brock can finish with some nice donkey kong hammerfists
> 
> ...


Brocks stand up has improved lots? Why would you assume that after watching the Carwin fight? He got lit up by Carwin on the feet, a slow, butterbean like fighter with poor technique. 

Not only that, but he didnt even connect flush. People seem to think because Brock survived Carwins punch, he is going to be impossible to KO, that isnt he case at all. Cain doesnt have Carwins power, but im sure he could TKO Brock. Hes much faster than Carwin, has better technique and is much more diverse in his striking. He doesnt have to KO Brock with one punch, he has the power to rock Lesnar and then finish him off with strikes.

Cain i believe can also take Lesnar down and have his way with him on the ground (that didnt sound gay :confused05. Quote me on it. He will scoop underneath brock and take him for a ride.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

cdtcpl said:


> Just to clarify, Randy wasn't winning the wrestling game, but the clinch game he gave Brock a hard time (possibly winning it). But if anything that proves the different styles of wrestling. Randy does Greco style wrestling which is about clinching and Lesnar did freestyle wrestling.
> 
> Everyone knows that Randy has a wicked clinch game, that he can tie up a man who out-weighed him by 60lbs is not surprising considering he has been Greco wrestling most of his life.


right thats what i ment


----------



## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> Brocks stand up has improved lots? Why would you assume that after watching the Carwin fight? He got lit up by Carwin on the feet, a slow, butterbean like fighter with poor technique.
> 
> Not only that, but he didnt even connect flush. People seem to think because Brock survived Carwins punch, he is going to be impossible to KO, that isnt he case at all. Cain doesnt have Carwins power, but im sure he could TKO Brock. Hes much faster than Carwin, has better technique and is much more diverse in his striking. He doesnt have to KO Brock with one punch, he has the power to rock Lesnar and then finish him off with strikes.
> 
> Cain i believe can also take Lesnar down and have his way with him on the ground (that didnt sound gay :confused05. Quote me on it. He will scoop underneath brock and take him for a ride.


i meant nowadays his striking is probably a lot better, he started working on it close to the carwin fight so obviously it would still be crap in that fight

but like i said even WITH POOR striking lesnar has a bigger chance to clip cain and end him with via donkey kong hammerfists, carwin didnt land flush the first few shots be he did landy many shots flush on the ground and a nasty elbow, those punches would have finished all the other fighters he faced, there were other fights where he didnt connect flush and the guys just droppged, brock does have amazing chin

and how can you be so sure he will TKO lesnar? he does have some power but i just dont see it, he will be constantly moving to make it difficult for brock to take him down this will make it harder to land big haymakers that might knock brock down

and i dont know if he can take lesnar down, i would be very surprised and pleased BUT even if he can take him down i dont imagine him keeping him down, brock has a sick scramble from what we've seen so far and is just much bigger

i really think the only way cain will win is with a UD...brocks chin is very good and hasnt been worn down because of numerous battles


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

ACTAFOOL said:


> i meant nowadays his striking is probably a lot better, he started working on it close to the carwin fight so obviously it would still be crap in that fight
> 
> but like i said even WITH POOR striking lesnar has a bigger chance to clip cain and end him with via donkey kong hammerfists, carwin didnt land flush the first few shots be he did landy many shots flush on the ground and a nasty elbow, those punches would have finished all the other fighters he faced, there were other fights where he didnt connect flush and the guys just droppged, brock does have amazing chin
> 
> ...


Ive analysed this fight to death. We'll have to agree to disagree. Cain outclasses Brock in every department here, and either wins by TKO or RNC.


----------



## Solarkhan (Sep 13, 2010)

For some reason, I feel as if Cain is a piece of meet being fed to Brock Lesnar. My gut tells me that. I hope JDS is right and this fight is competitive, but my gut tells me...this fight will not be the grand battle some are expecting.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> Ive analysed this fight to death. We'll have to agree to disagree. Cain outclasses Brock in every department here, and either wins by TKO or RNC.


haha me too, but fair enough, though i dont disagree that cain is superior in everything (except wrestling maybe) if brock wasnt such a freak athlete i would be on your side, but o well...i guess we shall have to wait until after the fight.....man i cant wait to see it! one thing is for sure, brocks fights are always exciting:thumbsup:


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Solarkhan said:


> For some reason, I feel as if Cain is a piece of meet being fed to Brock Lesnar. My gut tells me that. I hope JDS is right and this fight is competitive, but my gut tells me...this fight will not be the grand battle some are expecting.


As an avid Brock fan, I'd have to jump to Cain's defense here. Cain is arguably the most well rounded heavy weight in the division and Cain certainly outclasses Brock in every aspect of MMA. The one but very prevalent advantage Brock does have, is his extraordinary combination of anatomical and physiological superiority. War Brock all day, everyday, but Cain is serious business.


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## suniis (Mar 30, 2010)

VolcomX311 said:


> As an avid Brock fan, I'd have to jump to Cain's defense here. *Cain is arguably the most well rounded heavy weight in the division* and Cain certainly outclasses Brock in every aspect of MMA. The one but very prevalent advantage Brock does have, is his extraordinary combination of anatomical and physiological superiority. War Brock all day, everyday, but Cain is serious business.


I agree with that 100%


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

One thing for sure, this fight will not feature the Brock and Cain we've already seen. Both are improving and both will (should) be better. No question Cain makes huge leaps every fight. He's younger and will likely make more improvements than Lesnar will. But Lesnar had the blessing of being roughed up and exposed by Carwin, while still retaining his title. That may turn out to be one of the best things that ever happened to him. If it's true he brought in Pat Barry, then he's on the right track. 

I can see this fight going several ways. I can actually see Cain frustrating and dominating Lesnar for 5 rounds. But I think Lesnar is going to edge out a decision due to a smart training camp. He should also be slightly less rusty for this fight. But there's no ending to this that would surprise me.


----------



## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

Calminian said:


> when Cain huggery meets Brock hatred. :sarcastic09:


...LOL! Reading these posts that the truth...


----------



## dario03 (Oct 8, 2008)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Brock never took down and controlled Randy, Randy got up easily everytime and i believe Brock only got him down 2x and got stuffed 2x.
> 
> Randy took Brocks back (which is a domiant position) and he was about to take down Brock and Brock grabbed the fence.
> 
> ...


1st round
Brock and Randy clinch up.
They go toward the cage and Brock throws two quick knees.
Randy pushes Brock against the cage.
They stay against the cage in either neutral position or with Randy pushing Brock against the Cage but Brock lands 4 decent knees with Randy throwing 1 weak knee.
Brock pushes Randy against the cage.
Brock throws a weak knee.
3:52 Brock throws a short right that didn't look to powerful but makes Randy react and explode, pushing Brock back to the center of the octagon and landing a decent short right of his own.
They box from a distance for a bit
3:24 Brock goes for the TD but Randy defends it, Brock holds on.
3:00 Randy throws a knee but Brock uses that to scoop Randy up and get the takedown (wouldn't call it a slam but was a decent amount of force and is a clear TD).
They just hold onto each other for a bit then Brock tries to improve position
2:37 Brock gets mount but Randy is out in literally 2 seconds.
2:30 Randy is grabbing Brock's leg.
Randy scoots Brock down but Brock starts to stand up instantly.
2:20 Randy tries to jump on Brock's back, hes kind of on but still a bit to the side and has no hooks or any hold.
2:19 Brock is standing hunched over but has pulled Randy to the side Randy hops around.
2:15 Brock sweeps/powers Randy back to the ground.
Brock stays on top of Randy and basically nothing happens.
1:55 They both throw some weak body shots while on the ground.
Brock throws some pitter patter punches to Randy's face and one decent looking body shot.
1:30 Brock tries to pin Randy's right arm and then throws 2 good punches.
Randy frees his arm.
1:05 Randy has scrambled and isn't on his back now.
0:52 Randy stands completely up.
Turns Brock and pushes him against the fence and throws a knee.
Brock throws a little body shot and Randy throws a good knee.
Randy holds onto Brock and looks like he will try for a TD at some point.
0:22 Brock puts his hand on the fence but I'm not to sure he actually grabs it (when he reaches it looks like he does but when he moves his hand again it looks like he didn't) Either way Randy doesn't seem to be going for the TD yet.
0:15 Randy lifts Brock a bit and they move along the fence.
0:12 Randy puts Brock down and doesn't seem to be driving for the TD all that much.
0:11 Brock grabs the fence for half a second (now I hate when people grab the fence but honestly I don't see this as having any effect on Randy's TD).
0:07 Randy starts pushing for the TD again.
Brock gets a underhook and pushes Randy away, Randy throws a high punch that glances on Brocks neck and they somewhat clinch up when the buzzer rings.

Round 2.
They come out and throw some wild looking punches.
4:49 Brock catches Randy with a elbow and Randy is visibly shook up by it.
Brock runs in but Randy goes low to slow Brock down, Brock throws a couple knees.
4:43 Randy moves with Brock and pushes him up against the cage.
Randy throws a knee to Brock's face then a little later to the back of the leg.
3:55 Brock gets off the cage.
Brock throws a knee to Randy's face.
Randy instantly throws a right uppercut and a good right.
Brock swings and misses.
They again go into a distance boxing match moving in and out a few times.
3:17 Brock goes for a short shot but Randy shrugs it off and pushes Brock to the cage.
couple little shots thrown from both
2:16 now they're not on the cage, Randy throws a knee to the face but Brock responds by throwing a bigger knee to Randy's face.
2:09 Brock throws a left jab that Randy ducks, Brock comes over the top with a right and Randy goes down.
Brock throws like 30 hammerfist/ short punches then a bunch of little weak looking elbows but the ref stops it at 1:54 (probably since Randy wasn't doing much and probably had the look in his eyes).


Randy did good but I would say he was outwrestled and was controlled at points. He did stop two takedowns but the first Brock held on and eventually did get a takedown and the second was just a weak shot to begin with (not sure what Brock was doing). I also don't think Brock grabbing the fence had any effect on the takedown (though I do hate when people do that). 
Brock looked tired at the end of the first but perfectly fine during the 2nd so tiring him out would probably take a while. Push a fast enough pace and maybe it would happen in the championship rounds but we won't know till/if it happens.


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## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

I really think Cain has a very solid shot at dethroning Brock, and becoming the new HW Champ. As many of us have said his boxing is on point from his foot work, head movement, down to his heavy accurate punches. He's also got great wrestling and cardio to go for days, and his chin is pretty durable. 

Now I know Brock is huge and a better wrestler but I still think Cain will find his timing and TKO Brock in the first.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

really the worst thing you can be vs somebody with Cains style is tentative. Which Brock often is standing. I see that leading the to end.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

I see a lot of people building Cain out to be the GSP/A.Silva of HW. While he has some nice wins I think his hype train is too big too early. I am not saying he is bad or anything of the like, but everyone is talking about him like they talk about GSP. The big difference is GSP has cleared out his division and Cain is just starting. 

This upcomming fight is quite literally the biggest fight to date for both Lesnar and Cain. Both have faced heavy hitters and old dogs, now they both have to face each other. People can say one out classes the other in this area or that area, but it has been shown time and time again that in a fight anything can, and usually does, happen. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I can see either man winning this, but no one is getting a walk in the park, this will be a war that could go down as FOTN and FOTY.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

dario03 said:


> Randy did good but I would say he was outwrestled and was controlled at points. He did stop two takedowns but the first Brock held on and eventually did get a takedown and the second was just a weak shot to begin with (not sure what Brock was doing). I also don't think Brock grabbing the fence had any effect on the takedown (though I do hate when people do that).
> Brock looked tired at the end of the first but perfectly fine during the 2nd so tiring him out would probably take a while. Push a fast enough pace and maybe it would happen in the championship rounds but we won't know till/if it happens.


And to date, he is the only fighter that's out wrestled Couture, and only the second to KO him. Yet people are actually bagging on his wrestling skills.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Randy went 1 for 10 on TDs vs Vera.....

but yea, he isnt old or anything, he is "on anotha level". Coming off a long layoff no less.

I also believe Big Nog throughly outgrappled him. Moreso than Lesnar did.

But i guess none of that counts, only big bad Brock can do that.

btw, that wasnt a KO. Brock clipped him, he dropped and he hit him with 1000 baby hammerfists.

Big Nog also dropped Randy cleaner and if u watch replay he was actually out before he hit the ground. Big NoG is a power puncher??


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Randy went 1 for 10 on TDs vs Vera.....
> 
> but yea, he isnt old or anything, he is "on anotha level". Coming off a long layoff no less.
> 
> ...


Nog has great sweeps, but never took Randy down, never pushed him around. Out wrestled him? And yes he landed a clean shot and dropped him. But did he finish him? 

Just don't see how you refused to give Brock any credit. We get it, you don't like the guy, but can't you separate the two? :confused02:


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

actually i made $ on brock vs mir 2 and vs Randy. Good matchups for him.

I think brock is a great athlete and a decent fighter. he is very rudimentary in everything he does, it does hurt my eyes a bit and my ears when ppl call him "the best HW in the world" but he has earned the right to be among the best.

im just saying how i see it. No, Nog didnt TD Randy, but neither did Brock, you need CONTROL to score a TD, Randy sprung up almost instantly.....


just like i dont say Randy took down Brock, as Brock got up almost instantly.

You are making it sound like Brock throughtly outgrappled Randy, which wasnt the case, he CHOOSE to stand and bang because all other options were negated.

He was forced to play Randys game, he was doing well but expending energy which im sure was Randys plan.

If you had told Randy pre fight that Brock wont GnP him out and will stand and bang, Randy would have been thrilled.

anyways, in short, i dont hate lesnar, i think he is a pretty good fighter. unfortunately he is going up against the guy i think is the best fighter on the planet at any weight (not P4P, as in Cain Velasquez is a favorite vs ANYBODY in MMA imo).

i really think its gonna be easy $ for those betting on Cain. Like it was when he faced Nog, the guy that outgrappled and outstruck Randy aswell. Something you are making seem much more impressive than it actually is. Cain would mudhole Randy.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

I knew it was either Cain hugging or Lesnar hatred. A TD is a TD, regardless of whether the fighter escapes. Yes, Randy avoided control on the bottom, but he for certain was taken down. I can't think of another fighter that's done that to him. The guy is a great wrestler. And Cain may be the best HW on the planet. I wouldn't doubt it. We'll find out. It's going to come down to training camps and improvements of both fighters. I still give the edge to Brock as I think the Carwin beating will turn out to be the best medicine he could have taken at this stage in his career.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> actually i made $ on brock vs mir 2 and vs Randy. Good matchups for him.
> 
> I think brock is a great athlete and a decent fighter. he is very rudimentary in everything he does, it does hurt my eyes a bit and my ears when ppl call him "the best HW in the world" but he has earned the right to be among the best.
> 
> ...


i get what you're saying, and i usually agree with most of your points, but i think you need to give brock more credit, believe me, im not his biggest fan...i was hoping carwin would KO him but i had a feeling brock would still walk out champ, just how i hope that cain by some miracle TKOs brock since i dont see a UD in this fight, but lets remember, its HW...and at HW...any1 can get caught at anytime...so theres that

but....we have to remember the size difference, technique doesnt always win, hell lets just remember mir vs brock 2 or mir vs carwin...mir is better at everything except wrestling but these freakish human beings overcome technique with pure strength and the little technique that they have

and cain is better at EVERYTHING too except (maybe) wrestling, i dont know how so many of you can be so sure that cain has better wrestle than brock, brock has faced tough wrestlers, randy and carwin are very good wrestlers, what good wrestler has cain faced to prove hes such an unstoppable wrestler?? look at what brock did to mir, heath, and imagine what he would do to kongo, rothwell...same thing cain did but would probably finish faster (or in kongos case actually finish the fight)

this is cains true test to see if he is as good of a wrestler that he SEEMS to be, thinking he owns brock in wrestling by watching how he dominated kongo just shows how much hatred some of you have for brock:confused02:


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Kongo was a crazy step up in competition for Cain and it was on short notice and he was preparing for Heath "i got outwrestled by Kongo" Herring.

Kongo is also crazy underrated, amazingly hard to finish and has better wrestling than say Mir.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Kongo was a crazy step up in competition for Cain and it was on short notice and he was preparing for Heath "i got outwrestled by Kongo" Herring.
> 
> Kongo is also crazy underrated, amazingly hard to finish and has better wrestling than say Mir.


Just throwing this out there, Kongo got a TD on Cain.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

cdtcpl said:


> Just throwing this out there, Kongo got a TD on Cain.


and HH out wrestled Kongo (and out struck him).


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Cain is going to take the title and then we are all going to see the fight every true mma fan has been waiting for; Cain vs JDS.
> 
> I really dont understand any arguments which simply state; Brock is too big and strong for cain. When ever i hear this argument i just refer people to the Randy Couture fight. Randy a 46 year old man (a light heavy weight) who stuffed most of Brocks TD's and neutralised his wrestling and then when he did get taken down, got right back up to his feet.
> 
> ...


Actually Couture got taken down pretty easily and multiple times, he just bounced right back up.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Calminian said:


> and HH out wrestled Kongo (and out struck him).


 did u watch that fight?? Kongo took down Herring with powerful doubles multiple times.

Contrary to what most ppl say, Kongo has very good offensive wrestling and a very powerful double. He has GnP'D many victories.

Either way, that fight has as much meaning as the Lesnar Herring fight. But i dont go around saying Brock cant finish ppl because he didnt finish Herring....

its funny when a guy wins 87.5% of his fights via TKO (punches) in 2 rounds or less and is called pillow hands. He must have rocks in those pillows.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> did u watch that fight?? Kongo took down Herring with powerful doubles multiple times.
> 
> Contrary to what most ppl say, Kongo has very good offensive wrestling and a very powerful double. He has GnP'D many victories.


Yes, I watched it, and Herring won the ground game. He always ended up on top in every scramble. Kongo did get takedowns, but I wouldn't get too exited about those. I don't even think Herring expected the attempts, and let's face it, Herring's no grappler either. Kongo's strengths are his strikes. His grappling is mediocre at best. You're making him out to be this amazing wrestler. You can't possibly believe that.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

i didnt say he is an amzing wrestling, i said he is above average.

Cain and Brock are amazing wrestlers. They can make average guys like Kongo, look like children, which Cain did.

But. look at Kongos fights, who else did that to him?? 

List of fights Kongo has taken down

Cain Velasquez (no control and got his back taken immediately but he did surprise Cain with a TD in the 3rd)

Hardonk

Al-Turk

Evensen

Herring

CC

Asserio Silva

Wellisch

and thats just in the UFC. in 9 of 12 UFC fights he has gotten a TD. He has finished 3 ppl with GnP and done damage to a few others.

again, he isnt a great wrestler but he has a wrestling background and is a powerful guy. He doesnt just get taken down and owned like some ppl make him out to be. He has only been finished 2x in 21 fights.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

One thing for sure. If Kongo could take Cain down, Brock surely will.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> i didnt say he is an amzing wrestling, i said he is above average.
> 
> Cain and Brock are amazing wrestlers. They can make average guys like Kongo, look like children, which Cain did.
> 
> ...


right, so taking kongo down proves cains wrestling is better than brocks? im not saying you said this, but many ppl in this thread have said how brocks wrestling isnt impressive and cain will take him down

based on what? how he tooled strikers who cant wrestle or have decent wrestling?


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

MrObjective said:


> Actually Couture got taken down pretty easily and multiple times, he just bounced right back up.


No, he didnt.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Calminian said:


> One thing for sure. If Kongo could take Cain down, Brock surely will.


 kind of apples and oranges. the way Cain was taken down was being taken by surprise because Kongo was being grapple raped the entire match.

Such a situational TD tbh.

I wouldnt be shocked if Brock lands a couple TDs, it what he does with them that will matter. I dont buy into the "Brock takes you down once its ova" myth.

The reason so many ppl rate Cains wrestling high is simple, nobody has so easily manhandled Kongo and Rothwell. Not just that, but the way he did it, 100mph, singles to doubles to ankle picks to throws to clinches, hi/low set ups etc

such a varied attack and set up so well. Thats why alot of ppl rave about his wrestling. Brock has been effective but its double leg or bust as far as his TDs go and he doesnt set them up well.

Cain has a Chael Sonnen like pace but he is 240 pounds. Think about that. How crazy is that??


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Brock has been effective but its double leg or bust as far as his TDs go and he doesnt set them up well.


This is the part where you're reaching. Where have you seen him shoot a single and give up? Do you really think he dominated Big Ten without knowing how to shoot a single? And how many fights has the guy had? if you have the double, why take a single? In mma you're much better off going for doubles. The only exception might be if you're going up against a non-wrestler like Kongo, but even then, a double makes more sense. 

Hard to believe you can't give Brock even a little respect.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Cain has a Chael Sonnen like pace but he is 240 pounds. Think about that. How crazy is that??


And just like Chael he gasses because of his pace. Chael gassed hard in the Nate fight and it almost cost him. He got tired and sloppy against Silva and got caught.

Everyone talks about Cain's cardio, but the one time he went to the 3rd round he gasses against Kongo which is why Kongo was able to score a TD.


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## dario03 (Oct 8, 2008)

MrObjective said:


> Actually Couture got taken down pretty easily and multiple times, he just bounced right back up.





Mckeever said:


> No, he didnt.


The fight break down that I posted has times in it. Brock got two TDs. The first he kept Randy down for about 25 seconds but didn't do much because as soon as he got close to mount Randy got out. The second time he had Randy down for about a minute and Brock did do some damage, not a ton but some.
Brock wasn't a take down machine and Randy did not just pop up right away.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

leifdawg said:


> And just like Chael he gasses because of his pace. Chael gassed hard in the Nate fight and it almost cost him. He got tired and sloppy against Silva and got caught.
> 
> Everyone talks about Cain's cardio, but the one time he went to the 3rd round he gasses against Kongo which is why Kongo was able to score a TD.


 huh?? he gassed?? Cain got up and gave the camera that "no" look and had tons of energy bouncing around looking like he could go another 3 rounds.

But, that is speculation by me, ill go by the facts.

http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/08/velasquez-vs-kongo-fightmetric-report.html#more

in round 3, Cain threw 117 strikes..... more than Brock Lesnar threw the entire match vs Herring. More than Cain himself threw in the first 2 rounds vs Kongo.

So let me get this straight, you are saying Cain gassed vs Kongo, yet almost had more strikes in the 3rd than the 1st and 2nd combined??

Ppl raved that Chael threw what, 300 strikes in that fight vs Anderson???

Cain threw 262 vs Kongo and that was 3 rounds. He also got drilled a couple times but that didnt stop the crazy work rate.

You reaching hard here. Cain didnt gas vs Kongo and the pace he keeps is indeed unheard of in the HW division. That 1st round vs Rothwell was 10-7 by many media outlets.

You just made up that stuff. Kongo got the TD cuz he caught Cain off guard, he also got his back taken immediately once it hit the ground.

Had nothing to do with Cain gassing. Infact, if you actually watch the fight, it ends with Cain in full mount, raining down hard shots and Kongo looks like he is wilting and it will likely be ended if there was 30 seconds more.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> ...Kongo got the TD cuz he caught Cain off guard, he also got his back taken immediately once it hit the ground.
> 
> Had nothing to do with Cain gassing. ...


Taken down because he was caught off guard? Had this happened to Lesnar, we'd never hear the end of 'his terrible TDD.' :laugh: Man, you are a Valasquez fan through and through.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Calminian said:


> Taken down because he was caught off guard? Had this happened to Lesnar, we'd never hear the end of 'his terrible TDD.' :laugh: Man, you are a Valasquez fan through and through.


 Anderson took down Chael.

so what?? 

when u are completely not expecting a TD from an opponent you are owning, its very possible. 

Both Chael and Cain were not concerned about being taken down and they got caught off guard.

They both reversed the situation almost immediately and proceeded to take control.

Facing an opponent like Brock, its pretty obvious you worry about TDs 1st and hands 2nd. It would be much less likely to get caught off guard like Cain did.

I wish i knew how to post GIFs, i have some wonderful ones that could demonstrate what im saying. I have the Kongo TD of Cain GIF but how do i post it??


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

I've seen the fight several times and have it saved on my HD.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

Brock is a unique athlete. You can throw all of the traditional formulas out the window when analyzing his game.

Traditional large HW's like Mitrione, Rothwell, and Shane are prone to tiring in later rounds. Or even after or during the first. 

However, Brock was pummeled in the first against Shane, receiving blows on the bottom, then came out laughing, smiling and bouncing up and down for the start of the second. This is highly unusual for any athlete, especially for a 285 lb. heavyweight; a good indication that his conditioning is phenomenal. Consider also this was coming off surgery AND a prolonged illness. 

Brock was also impressive in three rounds against Herring, and effectively ended his career. 

Certain athletes defy conventional wisdom; Brock Lesnar is one of them. 



E Lit Er Ate said:


> Pretty good breakdown and i dont see Cain being stopped early unless Lesnar improves his standup immensely so he can setup his TDs. Those bullrush TDs didnt work on Randy or Carwin (til he gassed) and i highly doubt they will work on Cain, who is younger, faster, better footwork then the pre-mentioned with amazing wrestling to boot.
> 
> Speed and technique vs Size and strength. I know what im going with


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

why would brock be tired for one glancing uppercut and a bunch of shots on his forearms??

expending big energy by turtling up??

he was more tired vs Randy than he was vs Carwin.

he isnt that unique, his gastank is decent, he definately slowed down vs Herring, the pace was crazy slow.

Only Randy made him work and keep a pace that isnt Brock friendly and Brock clearly slowed down in the 2nd, was breathing out of his mouth and stopped going for TDs bullrush full power style cuz it wasnt working.

its funny when ppl make these posts like Brock is superhuman. He was scared and ran away, point blank. The only reason he won was Carwin gassed, nothing he did made Carwin gas, Carwin made himself gas.

Brock doesnt need to be scared of Cain but he should be.

"unique" as in a big one dimensional wrestler who likes to GnP??

oh yea, unheard of in MMA.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Brock's uniqueness has much less to do with his MMA skills; It's his overall athleticism combined with his size & weight that makes him unique. It's certainly not some ungodly combination unheard of to man, because most NFL backers and linemen have what he has, but in the current universe of MMA, Brock is a unique athlete in that physical sense. He scrambles like a LWH once on the ground and he can move like he doesn't weight 260+. 

His MMA talent is okay. He has great wrestling once he's in top control, but his TD's are playing at the nearest AMC near you they're so projected and his striking is average for a HW. Without his athleticism, (speed & agility, decent gas tank) at his size, strength & weight and a sincere command of some kind of discipline (wrestling), he'd look like Mariusz Pudz or Sapp, but he doesn't. I'm not trying to convert anyone to Brock's side and I acknowledge his technical MMA discipline will always be up for debate, but he is certainly unique, relative to the current MMA climate.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

I don't think most NFL linemen are running 4.7 40's or have 37" verticals. Brock's 40 time is closer to that of an NFL running back than a 275+ lb. linebacker. 

His takedowns are competent, but as you say, it's his athleticism that makes the difference. 

Given his lack of experience, you can only expect exponential increases in his skillset over the next two to three years. 



VolcomX311 said:


> Brock's uniqueness has much less to do with his MMA skills; It's his overall athleticism combined with his size & weight that makes him unique. It's certainly not some ungodly combination unheard of to man, because most NFL backers and linemen have what he has, but in the current universe of MMA, Brock is a unique athlete in that physical sense. He scrambles like a LWH once on the ground and he can move like he doesn't weight 260+.
> 
> His MMA talent is okay. He has great wrestling once he's in top control, but his TD's are playing at the nearest AMC near you they're so projected and his striking is average for a HW. Without his athleticism, (speed & agility, decent gas tank) at his size, strength & weight and a sincere command of some kind of discipline (wrestling), he'd look like Mariusz Pudz or Sapp, but he doesn't. I'm not trying to convert anyone to Brock's side and I acknowledge his technical MMA discipline will always be up for debate, but he is certainly unique, relative to the current MMA climate.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

Obvious hater. Better to reserve your emotional gas tank for things more important than hating an MMA fighter. 



E Lit Er Ate said:


> why would brock be tired for one glancing uppercut and a bunch of shots on his forearms??
> 
> expending big energy by turtling up??
> 
> ...


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

michelangelo said:


> I don't think most NFL linemen are running 4.7 40's or have 37" verticals. Brock's 40 time is closer to that of an NFL running back than a 275+ lb. linebacker.
> 
> His takedowns are competent, but as you say, it's his athleticism that makes the difference.
> 
> Given his lack of experience, you can only expect exponential increases in his skillset over the next two to three years.


It's an interesting point. Lesnar does have some room for improvement. He's an accomplished athlete, and knows what it takes to get to the top. Is he already there in MMA? He may have thought he was a lot closer before the Carwin fight, but I don't think he does anymore. I have a feeling he's back in improvement mode again and it will be interesting to see what evolves. Plus, he saw some improvements in his submission game, which will likely motivate the hunger for further improvements. 

Valasquez, on the other hand, is still very very young, and while he seems to have the complete package now, I look to see him continue to make huge leaps, especially in his first championship bout. He has the advantage of fine tuning what could be considered a pretty solid well rounded base. It's almost scary to think about what we might see next from him.

Both guys are in good situations. Lesnar was humbled recently and motivated to work on the technical side of things, and Valasquez is still a cub. Predicting this fight is no easy task.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> why would brock be tired for one glancing uppercut and a bunch of shots on his forearms??
> 
> expending big energy by turtling up??
> 
> ...


Serious question have you ever competed in any athletic competition above say peewee football. Or better yet have you ever done any kind of wrestling or grappling. It really saps your energy to carry a guy the size of Carwin on top of you for aprox. 4 minutes. Add to that the adrenaline dump from being put in a situation that Brock has probably never been in before.

The strenth and conditioning coach for the Vikings was quoted as saying Brock has unreal cardio, so I think I'll take the opinion of a world class trainer over some nutjob on an internet message board.

Also you say Carwin just tired himself out, well I agree. But if you watch some of the prefight interviews, you would know that it was part of Brock's strategy. I doubt he planned for it to go exactly the way it did. But he did say he wanted to weather the early storm because he questioned Carwin's gas tank.

Eric Paulson did an interview recently stating that the arm triangle was basically the only submission Brock worked on during that training camp. So it seemed like that fight went pretty damn close too Brock's gameplan.

So while Brock's tool belt isn't quite full yet. The tools he does have are highly amplified by his amazing athleticism. Couple that with an ability to follow a gameplan as good as anyone makes him one of the best, if not THE best, HW in the world.

It's a scary thought if he can fill that tool belt up a little more before his speed starts to deteriorate.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Cain Velasquez is going to take that title.


NOT!!!


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> NOT!!!


Still can't believe how much of a turnaround you did on Brock after 116. Wish more people would wake up ande see the light.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

leifdawg said:


> It's a scary thought if he can fill that tool belt up a little more before his speed starts to deteriorate.


That's a great way to put it. Lesnar has made it to the top doing just a few things very well, straight powerful punches, knees from clinches, top control, takedowns, gnp, and one submission hold. Can he increase his arsenal?? It's going to be tricky. Maybe just a few new tools per fight is the right pace. Valasquez, OTOH, has a full belt and just needs to sharpen the tools. And MMA being what it is, he could probably increase his arsenal as well. Both guys are scary.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

War Brock


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> War Brock


Is that Guida?


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

Calminian said:


> Is that Guida?


No it's a scene from Never Back Down.

The guy on the right is the story's antagonist, the guy on the left doing all the capoiera (sic?) moves was just a random guy in the tournament at the end of the movie.


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