# Penn could clean out the ww division as well...



## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

...before hitting the wall against GSP.

IMHO, BJ could move down and clean out the 145 division... but I think that could happen all to easily for him.

Moving up... I could see him clearing out alot of the WW competition. I know I will prolly get alot of flack for this opinion... but hes cleaned out the LW... hes got no where else to go but up... like A.Silva.

So who could give him grief at ww? Kos? Fitch? Alves? Swick? Hardy? ... I dont think so. Tough fights those might be, but I still see BJ coming out on top.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

_Yes! But they are all interesting for BJ. I have no doubt about it, that he can beat all of them._


----------



## CornbreadBB (Jul 31, 2008)

If BJ could bulk up as well as Mir did (well we didn't really see his cardio, but if his cardio doesn't change) he could deff beat GSP.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I really think Kos would be BJ's second biggest fight at WW, problem is he will quickly move up that ladder nad have nobody left, outside him and GSP fighing 143 times there aren't many challenges left for BJ, I'd actually like to see BJ go to strikeforce and fight at MW.


----------



## JACro (Aug 12, 2009)

I used to be a big critic of bj penn, and I still don't like him very much as a person. But he is definately one of the top fighters in the world. I would rather see him taking on ww top contenders and rematching gsp(which also gives gsp a challenge)


----------



## kieranm (Oct 28, 2009)

haha i havent heard that one ever i want to see him fight faber brown aldo kos and gsp


----------



## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

attention said:


> ...before hitting the wall against GSP.
> 
> IMHO, BJ could move down and clean out the 145 division... but I think that could happen all to easily for him.
> 
> ...


...Good post. I would believe it as well. I wonder what Matt Hughes was thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if a GSP/Penn 3 would pop-up soon. Penn is one scary ass dude! B.J. will fight anybody...


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

I'm not so certain BJ could get passed some of the second place WWs. I know he just out and out walked through Diego, but let's not get carried away, people. Fighters like Alves, Fitch, and Koscheck are very much the real deal, and to declare that BJ could 'clean them out' may be jumping the gun. Could Penn truly stand and trade with a fighter like Alves? Would he be able to sub someone like Fitch? I'm not so certain, but would be more than thrilled to see him give it a shot.


----------



## hixxy (Sep 7, 2007)

I think Koscheck would beat Penn, dont think he would finish him but could work a gameeplan that could win him a UD.


----------



## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

It is all thanks to Marv Marinovich:sarcastic12::sarcastic12:

I don't think I agree here Attention. I mean BJ has a complete lack of ability to gain weight and stay in shape. If he does, then he hasn't shown it yet. He is 0-3 in his last fights at WW, and only looked impressive in 3 of the 10 rounds he fought at the weight over the last few years. 

I want to see it, but only because a fight with Alvarez will never happen and he is about the only LW with a skill set and talent combo to beat him. But I still think BJ TKO's or RNC's him by round 3.


----------



## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I'm not so certain BJ could get passed some of the second place WWs. I know he just out and out walked through Diego, but let's not get carried away, people. Fighters like Alves, Fitch, and Koscheck are very much the real deal, and to declare that BJ could 'clean them out' may be jumping the gun. Could Penn truly stand and trade with a fighter like Alves? Would he be able to sub someone like Fitch? I'm not so certain, but would be more than thrilled to see him give it a shot.


Fitch's showing yesterday showed:
1) he cuts damn easy now after GSP opened up all that scar tissue.
2) he has sloppy striking compared to BJ.

Standing, I see BJ getting the KO.
If Fitch managed to get the takedown, it would still be BJ via sub.


----------



## AK-Bronco (Feb 25, 2008)

I would love to see Hardy vs BJ.


----------



## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> It is all thanks to Marv Marinovich:sarcastic12::sarcastic12:
> 
> I don't think I agree here Attention. I mean BJ has a complete lack of ability to gain weight and stay in shape. If he does, then he hasn't shown it yet. He is 0-3 in his last fights at WW, and only looked impressive in 3 of the 10 rounds he fought at the weight over the last few years.
> 
> I want to see it, but only because a fight with Alvarez will never happen and he is about the only LW with a skill set and talent combo to beat him. But I still think BJ TKO's or RNC's him by round 3.


I was a big BJ skeptic too... especially after gassin against Hughes in 2006... but seriously though, what does a guy have to do to prove hes changed?

IMHO, his weight has little to do with his natural ability/durability... he was doing better than most without the strength/condition coach... and now hes filling those holes in his game which he never even acknowledge prior.


----------



## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

hixxy said:


> I think Koscheck would beat Penn, dont think he would finish him but could work a gameeplan that could win him a UD.


Kos... sure the guys striking has improved... but I still dont think its on the same level as BJ.
Takedown wise, I dont see them coming easy and like Diego, he would pay for it ever single time.


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

I think we get carried away when we see a dominant performance from one of the big three. Penn wins, and suddenly he's ready to clean out WW and rematch GSP. GSP wins, and he should undoubtedly consider moving up to MW, where he'd without question destroy Anderson Silva. Silva wins, and not only should he consider cleaning out MW and LHW, but HW, as well. Do you see the trend?

All of these fighters are fantastic, but they are so in their respective weight divisions (barring Silva, who's superb in two weight classes). I'm a realist. As much as I root for GSP, and as much as I do suspect that he could make a run at MW, I anticipate that he might hit a wall when going up against second spot fighters like Marquardt, Henderson, and the like. I think he'd have a stellar chance against your Vitors, Bispings, and Wanderleis, but what happens when he runs into someone who can also wrestle? Also strike? And knows how to fight like a Middleweight? 

You have to anticipate these types of occurrences, and as has been said, what about Penn's previous WW outings suggest that he wouldn't hit that wall sooner rather than later? There is zero chance that BJ would KO Fitch. Whether he'd beat him up for three rounds is another story, but I'd say a KO is a no-go. What about someone like Alves, who has outstanding TDD and can rock anyone if he connects properly? Or Koscheck, same deal as Alves, only with excellent wrestling? BJ has had a great little run, that much I admit, but he has done so at LW. Ever notice that when he moves on up things don't tend to go nearly as well? I reiterate... I'd love to see him have a go at it, but talk of him cleaning out WW is highly premature.


----------



## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

attention said:


> Kos... sure the guys striking has improved... but I still dont think its on the same level as BJ.
> Takedown wise, I dont see them coming easy and like Diego, he would pay for it ever single time.


The wrestlers at 170 are way better than Diego. Kos, Fitch, GSP, etc would definitely get BJ to his back. 


Fitch from last night would definitely get clobbered by Penn from last night. Fitch from the Rumble fight... I think that'd be pretty close. Kos doesn't cut easy and he can take a ton of abuse and he's got a ton of power.


----------



## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

hixxy said:


> I think Koscheck would beat Penn, dont think he would finish him but could work a gameeplan that could win him a UD.


...Kos beat Penn? The Penn we saw last night would own Kos like a 5 dollar whore. No way. Josh would not take B.J. down, nor would he out strike him. Remember Kos is getting a rematch with a BJJ guy not known for striking who dropped him like a sack of potatos...


----------



## unclehulka13 (Nov 17, 2008)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> It is all thanks to Marv Marinovich:sarcastic12::sarcastic12:
> 
> I don't think I agree here Attention. I mean BJ has a complete lack of ability to gain weight and stay in shape. If he does, then he hasn't shown it yet. He is 0-3 in his last fights at WW, and only looked impressive in 3 of the 10 rounds he fought at the weight over the last few years.


So his last 3 WW fights: GSP, Hughes, GSP.

First GSP fight could have went either way. Hughes at the time was the most dominant WW in the world, and then the same for the 2nd GSP, most dominant ww. Was he outclassed in those fights, absolutely.
But to imply he couldn't run with the big boys at ww is completely asinine.


----------



## ESPADA9 (Oct 13, 2006)

attention said:


> ...before hitting the wall against GSP.
> 
> IMHO, BJ could move down and clean out the 145 division... but I think that could happen all to easily for him.
> 
> ...


I think Kos Alves and of course GSP are the 3 who would give BJ a hard time or defeat him.

BJ would need to pack on some more explosive power, we know he has the skill. His cardio is no longer suspect (he didn't even look tired in R4).

Not sure if he could ever beat a 100% GSP, Kos and Alves lack the BJJ which Penn could potentally exploit.

I would love to see any of these fights though.

I think BJ has proved he is the GSP/Silva of the 155 division.raise01:


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

unclehulka13 said:


> So his last 3 WW fights: GSP, Hughes, GSP.
> 
> First GSP fight could have went either way. Hughes at the time was the most dominant WW in the world, and then the same for the 2nd GSP, most dominant ww. Was he outclassed in those fights, absolutely.
> But to imply he couldn't run with the big boys at ww is completely asinine.


_BJ would have easily won the fight against Hughes if his cardio would have been the same like today. He dominated the first two rounds easily, he played with Matt until he couln't breath anymore in the third because of his cardio _


----------



## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

*GSP is BJ penn's version of Lesnar, to Frank Mir.*


Penn's technique and cardio was unrivaled last night (YES! YES! his cardio looked way better than Diego's) and his game planning was brand new. He picked Diego apart and was not scared of rounds 4 and 5.


----------



## After J (Dec 13, 2009)

ummm nah!


----------



## After J (Dec 13, 2009)

CornbreadBB said:


> If BJ could bulk up as well as Mir did (well we didn't really see his cardio, but if his cardio doesn't change) he could deff beat GSP.


 ummm nah!


----------



## Johnni G (Dec 2, 2009)

CornbreadBB said:


> If BJ could bulk up as well as Mir did (well we didn't really see his cardio, but if his cardio doesn't change) he could deff beat GSP.


Mir sure did Bulk A LOT! However I agree. BJ in beastmode atm.


----------



## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...If Penn moved up to WW, it wouldn't be a problem anymore. His strength & conditioning coach would blend him right into 170 with ease. A stronger Penn would be even more lethal. I see Penn going after GSP once more. I think the fight would be much more competitive than the last. It would be a mind-blowing fight of epic proportions...:thumbsup:


----------



## DJ Raw (Dec 6, 2009)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I'm not so certain BJ could get passed some of the second place WWs. I know he just out and out walked through Diego, but let's not get carried away, people. Fighters like Alves, Fitch, and Koscheck are very much the real deal, and to declare that BJ could 'clean them out' may be jumping the gun. Could Penn truly stand and trade with a fighter like Alves? Would he be able to sub someone like Fitch? I'm not so certain, but would be more than thrilled to see him give it a shot.


BJ Penn fought Lyoto Machida and almost won. I think he can handle those guys.


----------



## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

attention said:


> I was a big BJ skeptic too... especially after gassin against Hughes in 2006... but seriously though, what does a guy have to do to prove hes changed?
> 
> IMHO, his weight has little to do with his natural ability/durability... he was doing better than most without the strength/condition coach... and now hes filling those holes in his game which he never even acknowledge prior.


I am no skeptic...he has been my favorite fighter since his first run in the UFC. To prove he has changed!?! What do you mean? He has never had real cardio issues at LW only at weight classes above that. In order to change that opinion, he needs to not have cardio issues at weight classes above 155. 



unclehulka13 said:


> So his last 3 WW fights: GSP, Hughes, GSP.
> 
> First GSP fight could have went either way. Hughes at the time was the most dominant WW in the world, and then the same for the 2nd GSP, most dominant ww. Was he outclassed in those fights, absolutely.
> But to imply he couldn't run with the big boys at ww is completely asinine.


In order for a guy to be able to "run through everyone but GSP at 170" he would need to be competitive against GSP IMO.

And the first fight could not have gone either way. It was a clear 29-28 decision in my eyes and those belong to a BJ nuthugger.

I never said he couldn't run with em...only that he could not dominate as Attention stated in the OP. He has not shown the ability to stay fresh past the first 2 rounds at 170 in his last 3 attempts. The guys in that class are just getting bigger and stronger too. They will be able to tire him out that much more easily. Until he proves he can stay fresh past round 2 I will not change my opinion of his ability at 170.


----------



## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I think we get carried away when we see a dominant performance from one of the big three. Penn wins, and suddenly he's ready to clean out WW and rematch GSP. GSP wins, and he should undoubtedly consider moving up to MW, where he'd without question destroy Anderson Silva. Silva wins, and not only should he consider cleaning out MW and LHW, but HW, as well. Do you see the trend?
> 
> All of these fighters are fantastic, but they are so in their respective weight divisions (barring Silva, who's superb in two weight classes). I'm a realist. As much as I root for GSP, and as much as I do suspect that he could make a run at MW, I anticipate that he might hit a wall when going up against second spot fighters like Marquardt, Henderson, and the like. I think he'd have a stellar chance against your Vitors, Bispings, and Wanderleis, but what happens when he runs into someone who can also wrestle? Also strike? And knows how to fight like a Middleweight?
> 
> You have to anticipate these types of occurrences, and as has been said, what about Penn's previous WW outings suggest that he wouldn't hit that wall sooner rather than later? There is zero chance that BJ would KO Fitch. Whether he'd beat him up for three rounds is another story, but I'd say a KO is a no-go. What about someone like Alves, who has outstanding TDD and can rock anyone if he connects properly? Or Koscheck, same deal as Alves, only with excellent wrestling? BJ has had a great little run, that much I admit, but he has done so at LW. Ever notice that when he moves on up things don't tend to go nearly as well? I reiterate... I'd love to see him have a go at it, but talk of him cleaning out WW is highly premature.


Excellent point.
Penn is dominant at LW but the euforia behind his win against Diego is a little exagerated. He was dominant, but to say he's gonna clean up the WW (except GSP) is close to absurd. Kos and Alves at least would have a big big strength advantage over Penn, and despite his improving cardio-conditioning, i don't think he could match-up really well against them. His talent is there, the skill set also, but for me, something is missing.
Let's just leave Penn at LW to fight the other contenders and then, we will see.


----------



## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Fitch would give him a hell of a fight. He may not beat him, I'm not that delusional lol, but he's basically a lesser GSP with better sub defense. He's got great grappling, great top control, great sub defense. I think he'd take him to a decision :\

Other than him, I'd like to see him fight Kos. Josh could give him fits as well. He's got a damn good chin, KO power and probably the best wrestling in the division (outside GSP).

Alves could give him fits due to the massive difference in size.

IMO, he'd beat most of the WW division, but Fitch would grind him out just like GSP, Kos would possibly KO him or grind him out and Alves would out muscle him and hold his own on the feet.


----------



## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

BJ could do some serious damage at 170, but I don't think he would get past the top WW's. Fitch, Alves, Kos, GSP would all give him all sorts of trouble.


----------



## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I think we get carried away when we see a dominant performance from one of the big three. Penn wins, and suddenly he's ready to clean out WW and rematch GSP. GSP wins, and he should undoubtedly consider moving up to MW, where he'd without question destroy Anderson Silva. Silva wins, and not only should he consider cleaning out MW and LHW, but HW, as well. Do you see the trend?


Sure there is a trend... but its not without merit.



Canadian Psycho said:


> You have to anticipate these types of occurrences, and as has been said, what about Penn's previous WW outings suggest that he wouldn't hit that wall sooner rather than later? *There is zero chance that BJ would KO Fitch*.
> Whether he'd beat him up for three rounds is another story, but I'd say a KO is a no-go.


Did you watch the Fitch fight? That 'ZERO percent chance' almost hit the target... against who? GSP? Alves? Kos? ... nope, Mike Pierce (???). Based on Fitch's performance that night, he would have gotten owned by BJ... a KO woulda been more than likely. 



Canadian Psycho said:


> What about someone like Alves, who has outstanding TDD and can rock anyone if he connects properly? Or Koscheck, same deal as Alves, only with excellent wrestling? BJ has had a great little run, that much I admit, but he has done so at LW. Ever notice that when he moves on up things don't tend to go nearly as well? I reiterate... I'd love to see him have a go at it, but talk of him cleaning out WW is highly premature.


Based on last nights performace I would bed to differ.
Sure, if you want to base it off his last run in WW back in 2006, sure... but he appears to me to be a different fighter than 3 years ago. 

IMHO, BJ could always deal with wrestlers... it was his cardio that always failed him in the past, which basically left him high and dry for octagon control... but I didnt see that last night.

Sure, I might be jumping the gun here... Im just speculating... but I didnt see any holes in his game last night and he was seriously owning someone who was no can.


----------



## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

DJ Raw said:


> BJ Penn fought Lyoto Machida and almost won. I think he can handle those guys.


Heh, dont want to contradict myself, but that was quite some time ago ... for both guys.

That said, it does mean he has some experience dealing with larger guys at a heaver weight which most fighters do not


----------



## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> I am no skeptic...he has been my favorite fighter since his first run in the UFC. To prove he has changed!?! What do you mean? He has never had real cardio issues at LW only at weight classes above that. In order to change that opinion, he needs to not have cardio issues at weight classes above 155.


true... we have yet to see him perform with this new training regiment at 170.



ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> In order for a guy to be able to "run through everyone but GSP at 170" he would need to be competitive against GSP IMO.
> 
> And the first fight could not have gone either way. It was a clear 29-28 decision in my eyes and those belong to a BJ nuthugger.


Heh, IMHO... that was a GSP victory... of course, Im a heavily biased GSP fan 



ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> I never said he couldn't run with em...only that he could not dominate as Attention stated in the OP. He has not shown the ability to stay fresh past the first 2 rounds at 170 in his last 3 attempts. The guys in that class are just getting bigger and stronger too. They will be able to tire him out that much more easily. Until he proves he can stay fresh past round 2 I will not change my opinion of his ability at 170.


Fair enuf, not enough data at 170.

Im just surprised at how easily he dispatch Diego... IMHO, Diego could probably make a fair run at 170 if he wished... and seeing him get owned like this by BJ just threw me for a loop.


----------



## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Epic triple post man >_>

I'm still kind of in awe at BJ last night.


----------



## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

attention said:


> Heh, IMHO... that was a GSP victory... of course, Im a heavily biased GSP fan


you didn't think I was sayin BJ won do you? I was saying it was a clear 29-28 for GSP



> Im just surprised at how easily he dispatch Diego... IMHO, Diego could probably make a fair run at 170 if he wished... and seeing him get owned like this by BJ just threw me for a loop.


Really? I am suprised at how many people actually said this was the test for BJ. The only thing Diego has shown that could have come close to being an advantage was his heart. And that got taken from him when he stepped in there with an actual champion. 

This was the first time Diego ever faced "real" talent. And it showed. He will become a better fighter, no doubt. But never championship material.


----------



## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

BJ would school every WW but GSP. He would KO Fitch, and win hard faught decisions against Kos and Alves. AJ's size would cause him problems but I think BJ would submit him.

The key for BJ would be for him to prepare for the WW fights like he was fighitng a LW fight and come in weighing 156, not 170.

IMO Fitch is very overrated He will lose his next fight, I dont care who he fights. He just isnt that great. Hes just a scrapper. Not very talented. Alves is going to beat him in the rematch.


----------



## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

BJ would beat SOME at 170 but not all. If he were to face people with vicious reach or weight advantages i.e Anthony Johnson, Thiago Alves etc, I'm not sure how he would do.


----------



## machidaisgod (Aug 14, 2009)

Well while hes cleaning out ww why not do mw too, that could use a good cleaning, I mean c'mon the guy just beat Sanchez what could stop him. And his losses, well he was ahead on ALL scorecards before GSP lucked into that brutal beating. And and Hughes was on the downside of his career so we can just throw that humiliating loss out the window "like it never happened" BJ we are not worthy...


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

BJ could beat GSP too if he took whatever it is that Mir is taking.


----------



## js1316 (Jun 17, 2007)

After a few more title defenses, BJ should just go to StrikeForce and fight Nick Diaz. That is a fight I wanna see. :thumbsup:


----------



## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

I think Alves would give him a run for his money, other then that I agree though. I don't even like Penn but he has really impressed in his last 2 fights.


----------



## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

420atalon said:


> I think Alves would give him a run for his money, other then that I agree though. I don't even like Penn but he has really impressed in his last 2 fights.


Heh... I agree, I think BJ is quite the tool, but ya cant deny his skills.


----------



## G0K0S (Dec 27, 2008)

I would love to see Koscheck vs Penn. 

I would also love to see Aldo vs Penn.


----------



## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

BJ doesn't seem to build lean muscle easily, he came in underweight at one point moving up to 170, IIRC.

I assume he was trying to pack on muscle with that move up.


----------



## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

It would be great to add on "The Prodigy." Who wouldn't want to see him at welter weight, GSP at middle weight, "The Spider" at both LHW and HW. So many incredible matches...


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Yeah if Fitch came in last night and took those shots from someone that BJ would whip the floor with, it think BJ would of taken Fitch. Fitch is a complete MMA fighter with good overall game, and because of that he is able to do the shit he does. But how much stronger BJ is and how crisp his striking was, and cardio, im getting more and more happy to see a GSP fight in the future for BJ and ill be rooting for him the whole time. Not betting money but ill cheer him on lol. I want to see BJ go into WW and fight Josh Koscheck then if he completely owns him then i want a Fitch fight, and if he owns HIM then GSP, but if the fight was a close one with Koscheck then i want a ALves/BJ fight then a GSP if he wins... That sounds right! ill send it to Dana


----------



## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

swpthleg said:


> BJ doesn't seem to build lean muscle easily, he came in underweight at one point moving up to 170, IIRC.
> 
> I assume he was trying to pack on muscle with that move up.


No, he was going by his BF%, not his actual weight. He had a target "optimum" BF%, and he would either cut to 170 from that weight, or just stay at that weight. I believe it ended up being like 167 pounds.


----------



## Baby Jay D. (Apr 25, 2008)

I honestly think it's time to move up to WW for Penn. Theres nothing left for him at LW. SUre Maynard and Edgar are great fighters but I don't think they would even be competitive against Penn.

I'd like to see him take on the AKA boys and fight Swick, Fitch and Kos in that order. I think he handles Swick and Fitch to come away with the win. Kos would be a tougher fight. After those fights, and with the right results and performances, I think a GSP rematch could be considered.


----------



## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

I agree that BJ could clean out most of WW as well, besides GSP (and no I don't think bulking up is the problem, I think GSP is a freakin master of combining striking and takedowns). 

But besides GSP, even Alves could make trouble for BJ style wise. BJ has never faced as good a striker, with a good TDD. If you look at his record, the only good strikers BJ has faced have been GSP, Florian and Duane Ludwig. GSP was beating him badly in the standup. Ludwig just isn't a complete MMA artist and got owned on the ground, and Florian is a decent striker but still miles below elite strikers like Alves. I think Alves could keep it standing with his size and cause some major problems to BJs legs ... that's the perfect style counter to a great boxer - take his legs out. It's classic and time tested. If BJ manages to close the distance, Alves' knees are devastating too.

But yeah other than that BJ smashes everyone at LW, WW or even MW (if he bulked up well) besides Anderson. He actually gave the #1 LHW Machida his 3rd toughest fight to date (after Shogun and Greco), and that was at HW.


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> I agree that BJ could clean out most of WW as well, besides GSP (and no I don't think bulking up is the problem, I think GSP is a freakin master of combining striking and takedowns).
> 
> But besides GSP, even Alves could make trouble for BJ style wise. BJ has never faced as good a striker, with a good TDD. If you look at his record, the only good strikers BJ has faced have been GSP, Florian and Duane Ludwig. GSP was beating him badly in the standup. Ludwig just isn't a complete MMA artist and got owned on the ground, and Florian is a decent striker but still miles below elite strikers like Alves. I think Alves could keep it standing with his size and cause some major problems to BJs legs ... that's the perfect style counter to a great boxer - take his legs out. It's classic and time tested. If BJ manages to close the distance, Alves' knees are devastating too.
> 
> But yeah other than that BJ smashes everyone at LW, WW or even MW (if he bulked up well) besides Anderson. He actually gave the #1 LHW Machida his 3rd toughest fight to date (after Shogun and Greco), and that was at HW.



I would totally agree, and i wouldnt want to see a Mike Swick vs BJ that is just TOO EASY it would be PATHETIC... Not only would BJ make Dan Hardy his woman but swick would have NOTHING to offer BJ... Like im sure Mike Swick could brawl with Machida and get a close decision while Machida is basically a HW while he was a LW... NOT!!! But Thiago Alves is a good test for BJ he is one of those guys thats a complete fighter, but its tough to say because i know Styles Makes Fights but if Jon Fitch can beat Thiago (Not saying Fitch isnt top notch) but Bj is like Jon Fitch in the fact that he is complete in all aspects of the game, but BJ has a better ground game then fitch and he has more "crisp" shots judging off that Diego fight. It would have to be ALL about Thiagos Power that he would represent, that would give him a good "Strikers Chance" if it hit the Ground Bj would Submit if it was a stand up match i think it would follow the lines of Sean Sherk fight. A stand up WAR ending with BJ Penn with a nasty KO


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> I agree that BJ could clean out most of WW as well, besides GSP (and no I don't think bulking up is the problem, I think GSP is a freakin master of combining striking and takedowns).
> 
> But besides GSP, even Alves could make trouble for BJ style wise. BJ has never faced as good a striker, with a good TDD. If you look at his record, the only good strikers BJ has faced have been GSP, Florian and Duane Ludwig. GSP was beating him badly in the standup. Ludwig just isn't a complete MMA artist and got owned on the ground, and Florian is a decent striker but still miles below elite strikers like Alves. I think Alves could keep it standing with his size and cause some major problems to BJs legs ... that's the perfect style counter to a great boxer - take his legs out. It's classic and time tested. If BJ manages to close the distance, Alves' knees are devastating too.
> 
> But yeah other than that BJ smashes everyone at LW, WW or even MW (if he bulked up well) besides Anderson. He actually gave the #1 LHW Machida his 3rd toughest fight to date (after Shogun and Greco), and that was at HW.




I would totally agree, and i wouldnt want to see a Mike Swick vs BJ that is just TOO EASY it would be PATHETIC... Not only would BJ make Dan Hardy his woman but swick would have NOTHING to offer BJ... Like im sure Mike Swick could brawl with Machida and get a close decision while Machida is basically a HW while he was a LW... NOT!!! But Thiago Alves is a good test for BJ he is one of those guys thats a complete fighter, but its tough to say because i know Styles Makes Fights but if Jon Fitch can beat Thiago (Not saying Fitch isnt top notch) but Bj is like Jon Fitch in the fact that he is complete in all aspects of the game, but BJ has a better ground game then fitch and he has more "crisp" shots judging off that Diego fight. It would have to be ALL about Thiagos Power that he would represent, that would give him a good "Strikers Chance" if it hit the Ground Bj would Submit if it was a stand up match i think it would follow the lines of Sean Sherk fight. A stand up WAR ending with BJ Penn with a nasty KO 





Baby Jay D. said:


> I honestly think it's time to move up to WW for Penn. Theres nothing left for him at LW. SUre Maynard and Edgar are great fighters but I don't think they would even be competitive against Penn.
> 
> I'd like to see him take on the AKA boys and fight Swick, Fitch and Kos in that order. I think he handles Swick and Fitch to come away with the win. Kos would be a tougher fight. After those fights, and with the right results and performances, I think a GSP rematch could be considered.


I dont Understand your order.... Swick vs Bj i think is a bad match up, because not only could every fighter he fought (Florian, Diego, Sherk, Matt Houghes) to name a few would KILL Swick.... And how the flying monkeys of death mountain posses you to think that Koscheck is a harder fight then Fitch.... What fight or what record or what world or what ANYTHING makes u hallucinate to the point where Fitch weaker in ANY aspect of the game... Your funny and ill have whatever your smoking! XD


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

I completely agree with every thing you have said attention. I think BJ would have no real problems in the WW division other than GSP. Looking at Diego when he fought at 170, his losses were against Kos and Fitch (Plus wasnt near 100 percent). Both fights went to a decision and they wernt completely dominant performances for Kos or Fitch. Then you look now at the present, the strongest and toughest Diego yet and BJ just schools him, he was toying around with Diego. Neither Koscheck or Fitch were able to do this to Diego at 170. 

Also Lidell you say that BJ hasnt got much of a record against renown strikers. BJ busted up GSP bad in the first fight on the feet and although it was some time ago and both fighters have come a long way, he has fought Machida. Arguably one of the best strikers at LHW. BJ vs Machida was a very close fight.

BJ Penn imo has the bext boxing in mma, on top of that he has some of the best head movement in mma and a granite chin. People saying Kos would KO Penn need to wake up, seriously. Penn would school Kos with his elite boxng on the feet and stuff all of his takedown attempts. Fight would end up with BJ ether KO'ing Kos or beating him silly for 3 rounds. Like you said lidell the only other WW i see posing a threat for BJ other than GSP is Thiago Alves. Excellent striker and would make for a great fight.

People need to stop doubting his cardio as well. With his new strength and condition program i cant see BJ worrying about gassing at 170, it just isnt going to happen.


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> I completely agree with every thing you have said attention. I think BJ would have no real problems in the WW division other than GSP. Looking at Diego when he fought at 170, his losses were against Kos and Fitch (Plus wasnt near 100 percent). Both fights went to a decision and they wernt completely dominant performances for Kos or Fitch. Then you look now at the present, the strongest and toughest Diego yet and BJ just schools him, he was toying around with Diego. Neither Koscheck or Fitch were able to do this to Diego at 170.
> 
> Also Lidell you say that BJ hasnt got much of a record against renown strikers. BJ busted up GSP bad in the first fight on the feet and although it was some time ago and both fighters have come a long way, he has fought Machida. Arguably one of the best strikers at LHW. BJ vs Machida was a very close fight.
> 
> ...


I agree with 99% of what you just said, BJ would be the belt holder in both weights with a Breeze if GSP was never Alive... Lol, but BEST BOXING IN MMA? I think its close with a lot of fighters, but ill just throw out the Obvious Anderson Silva.... His Boxing and HEAD movement against Forrest being the most recent and others all got out schooled so id say Anderson is more advanced the BJ in head movement and boxing but one could argue ^^


----------



## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

Only guys I see giving Penn problems at WW are Alves and GSP. He'd tool Hughes in a rubber match. I doubt Fitch would last the distance. Kos may pose a threat if he finds a home for that big right hand, but I don't think he'd land it or be very successful with TD's (early at least) and just get picked apart.

A rematch with GSP would be closer than their 2nd fight I'm sure of as Penn is much more dedicated and doing things right now. However I'd still give GSP the nod but it'd be an interesting 3rd fight imo.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Machida Karate said:


> I agree with 99% of what you just said, BJ would be the belt holder in both weights with a Breeze if GSP was never Alive... Lol, but BEST BOXING IN MMA? I think its close with a lot of fighters, but ill just throw out the Obvious Anderson Silva.... His Boxing and HEAD movement against Forrest being the most recent and others all got out schooled so id say Anderson is more advanced the BJ in head movement and boxing but one could argue ^^


Yea, i was going to mention Silva in my post, could be a toss up between Penn and Silva.


----------



## name goes here (Aug 15, 2007)

I wouldn't want to see BJ v GSP again. Otherwise I agree with op. A good match would be bj v Fitch


----------



## Baby Jay D. (Apr 25, 2008)

Machida Karate said:


> ...and i wouldnt want to see a Mike Swick vs BJ that is just TOO EASY it would be PATHETIC... Not only would BJ make Dan Hardy his woman but swick would have NOTHING to offer BJ... Like im sure Mike Swick could brawl with Machida and get a close decision while Machida is basically a HW while he was a LW... NOT!!! ....


Are we talking about the same Swick? The one who was a big favourite in most peoples eyes against Hardy. The guy who was next in line for the title with a win against Dan. I don't think Swick is amazing at all but I think he still deserves some credit in the division and he's a big name there. Hell, he's only lost once at WW and once at MW in the UFC FFS.



> I dont Understand your order....


The reason I'd like to see him fight Swick first is to allow an acclimation to the WW division. It would be a decent reintroduction to WW without being overly dangerous imo. Historically BJ isn't great cardio-wise at that weight so it would be a chance to gauge his new conditioning program at that weight. While Swick wouldn't be the hardest first fight Penn could get, Swicks still a big name in the division and a legitimate fighter at that weight. Having said that the main reason I'd like Swick to be Penns first fight back in that division is because I think Penn would KO him, Swicks standup defense is less than great. 



> Swick vs Bj i think is a bad match up, because not only could every fighter he fought (Florian, Diego, Sherk, Matt Houghes) to name a few would KILL Swick....


I think Swick would be very competitive against all those fighters. With his size advantage all those would struggle to "KILL" Swick. As for Hughes, I think Mike tools him if they ever fight.



> And how the flying monkeys of death mountain posses you to think that Koscheck is a harder fight then Fitch.... What fight or what record or what world or what ANYTHING makes u hallucinate to the point where Fitch weaker in ANY aspect of the game... Your funny and ill have whatever your smoking! XD


I don't think Fitch is that special a fighter at all. Fitch and Kos are about the same level imo. I know it would never happen due to AKA crap but if they ever fought it'd be a close fight.


----------



## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> Also Lidell you say that BJ hasnt got much of a record against renown strikers. BJ busted up GSP bad in the first fight on the feet and although it was some time ago and both fighters have come a long way, he has fought Machida. Arguably one of the best strikers at LHW. BJ vs Machida was a very close fight.



oh yeah I forgot Machida. My point still stands though, close or not he lost to Machida, and it was mostly a striking battle so weight wasn't as big a factor (neither fighter is really known for KO power). 

And he wasn't really tooling GSP in the first one standup wise either, he got a bit lucky clipping GSPs nose with one punch which basically started a gusher. And an illegal eyepoke before that. Other than that, he didn't really land any great strikes, but those two alone made GSPs face look so bad, so it's more a case of chance than tooling. The second fight WAS a tooling during the standup though, BJ got CLOCKED consistently... stright punches, superman punches, kicks, all landed solid. 

So of the 4 real strikers BJ has faced, he lost to two. And honestly if Ludwig had any serious TDD, I think he would've beat BJ on the feet too. All that leaves is Florian, another overrated striker who himself has outstruck primarily grapplers with no striking or subbing strikers with no TDD. Florian would get murdered by the likes of Alves even if he bulked up.

So yeah, like Rogan said last night, IMHO the type of style to give BJ problems would be an elite striker even better than BJ on the feet, with a great TDD. I think Alves fits that bill to some extent, though besides Anderson and Machida it's hard to pick out guys that are definitely better on the feet than BJ.



Machida Karate said:


> But Thiago Alves is a good test for BJ he is one of those guys thats a complete fighter, but its tough to say because i know Styles Makes Fights but if Jon Fitch can beat Thiago (Not saying Fitch isnt top notch) but Bj is like Jon Fitch in the fact that he is complete in all aspects of the game, but BJ has a better ground game then fitch and he has more "crisp" shots judging off that Diego fight. It would have to be ALL about Thiagos Power that he would represent, that would give him a good "Strikers Chance" if it hit the Ground Bj would Submit if it was a stand up match i think it would follow the lines of Sean Sherk fight. A stand up WAR ending with BJ Penn with a nasty KO


I agree with the rest of your post too, but I think you are missing a huge thing when you compare BJ and Fitch - takedowns. Fitch's primary background is as a wrestler, and he has some decent collegiate wrestling creds. BJ has none... his counter-wrestling and balance is amazing but his takedowns are only average. And takedowns/ground control are the primary reason that Fitch and for that matter GSP beat Alves. A man without excellent takedowns = cannon fodder for Alves. As much as Alves has improved his TDD (as shown against Hughes), I think he'd even beat Fitch in a rematch.

And as good as BJ is on the feet, Alves has more weapons there, and better than ANYONE BJ has faced in stand up besides Machida, who he lost to. BJ may have more crisp shots, but the pitbull has showcased the kind of power and accuracy in his strikes that can end ANYONE if they stand with him.


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Baby Jay D. said:


> Are we talking about the same Swick? The one who was a big favourite in most peoples eyes against Hardy. The guy who was next in line for the title with a win against Dan. I don't think Swick is amazing at all but I think he still deserves some credit in the division and he's a big name there. Hell, he's only lost once at WW and once at MW in the UFC FFS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol dude the only reason Swick was even near a title shot (And Dan hardy doesnt deserve one) was because GSP beat the crap out of everyone else already..... Dude your talking about a guy that never fought anyone good... Best fights are against Ben Saunders and Marcus Davis.... Then loses to Dan Hardy.... Dan Hardy doesnt deserve to be in the same building as Pj Penn... And none of those guys made it anywhere in UFC... DO you really need me to tell u everything BJ Penn has fought and beat....... Save Swick for the losers not the best LW in history! GOSH!


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> oh yeah I forgot Machida. My point still stands though, close or not he lost to Machida, and it was mostly a striking battle so weight wasn't as big a factor (neither fighter is really known for KO power).
> 
> And he wasn't really tooling GSP in the first one standup wise either, he got a bit lucky clipping GSPs nose with one punch which basically started a gusher. And an illegal eyepoke before that. Other than that, he didn't really land any great strikes, but those two alone made GSPs face look so bad, so it's more a case of chance than tooling. The second fight WAS a tooling during the standup though, BJ got CLOCKED consistently... stright punches, superman punches, kicks, all landed solid.
> 
> ...



True and ALL respect to Thiago Alves anyone that can take out Matt Houghes like that i give props. But I think GSp has just as much weapons and BJ put him in the hospital. i dont think Bj Penn would need to take it to the ground with his Top Notch boxing and his Gab and counters are better then they ever been, im still in awe of the boxing i just saw last weekend Diego is noooo joke.... And i think if Thiago will keep it standing but I think he will try to do what GSP did and try to take him down and if he takes Bj down (As we saw Diego try) He still the first American-born winner of the World Jiu-Jitsu Championship in the black-belt category.... Do you really want to take him down? lol I would love to see the fight no matter what way u look at it lol


----------



## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

As an avid Penn fan, I wouldn't want to see him fight GSP again or Alves. The strength/weight/power difference was the biggest determinant for GSP molesting Penn, I don't think Penn could add that much muscle on to balance the physical abilities difference between him and GSP. Alves might be too strong for Penn as well. I think on paper a Penn/GSP II sounds pretty awesome or a Penn/Alves, but I see that more as setting Penn up for another depressive spiral. I don't know who else he would fight in his current division that would be challenging or edge of the seat exciting, but GSP will always be too much for Penn, imo and Alves is a huge question mark, which I don't see boding well for a much weaker Penn, in comparison.


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

I don't think Fitch is that special a fighter at all. Fitch and Kos are about the same level imo. I know it would never happen due to AKA crap but if they ever fought it'd be a close fight.[/QUOTE]


Fitch would KILL Koscheck dude.... Here is another History lesson my friend... Fitch 21 - 3 Koscheck 14 - 4... Oh this must be because Koscheck fought way better fighters.... NOPE they fought a lot of the same but Fitch won 98% of his loses... Lets see...Koscheck lost to Thiago, Fitch won... Koscheck then fought Yoshida (because Asians have no chin and he has no stand up as we saw on his other fight that he got KO'ed agian) and then gets knocked out himself by Paulo Thiago. And Fitch kills him.... Remember that Fitch won 19 out of his 20 fights with that one lose to GSP, Jon Fitch is apart of the reason Koscheck beat Anthony Johnson, which is the only guy that he beat that was truly good other then Diego. Other then that all his loses Fitch was able go through other then GSP need i say more.

P.S. Im i big Koscheck fan and i always cheer for him and thought he did a amazing job against Anthony Johnson that made me a fan of Koscheck again. But Fitch has ONLY proved himself to be better in all ways... I dont see Koscheck winning a single round on Fitch, just not going to happen


----------



## Baby Jay D. (Apr 25, 2008)

Machida Karate said:


> lol dude the only reason Swick was even near a title shot (And Dan hardy doesnt deserve one) was because GSP beat the crap out of everyone else already..... Dude your talking about a guy that never fought anyone good... Best fights are against Ben Saunders and Marcus Davis.... Then loses to Dan Hardy.... Dan Hardy doesnt deserve to be in the same building as Pj Penn... And none of those guys made it anywhere in UFC... DO you really need me to tell u everything BJ Penn has fought and beat....... Save Swick for the losers not the best LW in history! GOSH!


I don't think you understand my point. I'll explain in as clear English as I can. 

I *don't* think Swick would beat BJ Penn. The Swick fight would be an reintroductory fight to the welterweight division to see how Penn's new cardio regime would do at that weight. After that he could fight the next level fighters in the division.



Machida Karate said:


> Fitch would KILL Koscheck dude.... Here is another History lesson my friend... Fitch 21 - 3 Koscheck 14 - 4... Oh this must be because Koscheck fought way better fighters.... NOPE they fought a lot of the same but Fitch won 98% of his loses... Lets see...Koscheck lost to Thiago, Fitch won... Koscheck then fought Yoshida (because Asians have no chin and he has no stand up as we saw on his other fight that he got KO'ed agian) and then gets knocked out himself by Paulo Thiago. And Fitch kills him.... Remember that Fitch won 19 out of his 20 fights with that one lose to GSP, Jon Fitch is apart of the reason Koscheck beat Anthony Johnson, which is the only guy that he beat that was truly good other then Diego. Other then that all his loses Fitch was able go through other then GSP need i say more.


Here is an MMA lesson for you my friend. MMA math does not work at any level. Styles make fights. BTW the level of competition both have faced in the UFC is of very similar quality.



> P.S. Im i big Koscheck fan and i always cheer for him and thought he did a amazing job against Anthony Johnson that made me a fan of Koscheck again. But Fitch has ONLY proved himself to be better in all ways... I dont see Koscheck winning a single round on Fitch, just not going to happen


Personally, I think your overating Fitch. He's a great fighter but he usually uses his wrestling to dominate fights. He wouldn't be able to do that against Kos. Koscheck has better wrestling imo and more dangerous KO power, but it's still a close fight.


----------



## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Machida Karate said:


> I agree with 99% of what you just said, BJ would be the belt holder in both weights with a Breeze if GSP was never Alive... Lol, but BEST BOXING IN MMA? I think its close with a lot of fighters, but ill just throw out the Obvious Anderson Silva.... His Boxing and HEAD movement against Forrest being the most recent and others all got out schooled so id say Anderson is more advanced the BJ in head movement and boxing but one could argue ^^


Silva does have good boxing, but when he fights in MMA fights he doesn't use much of it...if he used that footwork in a boxing bout...he would get KO'd pretty quickly. Also, the threat of the knees, elbows, and feet are what helps him keep his range. His boxing is not top 5 IMO...his striking is #1, but not his boxing.

And seriously...stop double posting...use the edit button or multi quote.


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Baby Jay D. said:


> I don't think you understand my point. I'll explain in as clear English as I can.
> 
> I *don't* think Swick would beat BJ Penn. The Swick fight would be an reintroductory fight to the welterweight division to see how Penn's new cardio regime would do at that weight. After that he could fight the next level fighters in the division.
> 
> ...



Yes styles makes fights thats why this is a horrible fight i dont see what Koscheck could bring to the table against Fitch dont make since. And i dont think ur understanding me about BJ and Swick I'm saying not only would he HORRIBLY lose but it wouldnt make a good "reintroductory fight" because i wouldn't want to wait another 4 to 5 months to see him finally fight someone worthy when we already know how good Bj Penn is... It dont make since, HE HAD THE BELT IN THAT WEIGHT CLASS DID U FORGET THAT???? What does he have to prove? Swick is a no body.... im lost


And Anderson has amazing boxing but if he fought just like one in a MMA bout that would be stupid because its MMA... His Style to mixing it all together is what makes him Anderson Silva. Why would he want to fight Roy Jones Jr after MMA if his boxing wasn't top notch, and all i saw with Forrest Griffen was good boxing head movement and scary footwork, and not a single kick or knee, he has a way better boxing then you think check his youtube vids against Big Nog... And until we see him in a real BOXING match then we can start to judge his BOXING


----------



## Alex_DeLarge (Sep 5, 2006)

He wouldn't clean out the welterweight division, not even close.

One thing I do know for sure is that BJ does NOT have a gas tank at 170.


----------



## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

MachidaKarate is kind of a troll it seems but he's right about one thing. I think Matt Hughes right now would crush Swick, and if we can remember, Penn took the belt from Hughes once.


----------



## Alex_DeLarge (Sep 5, 2006)

Then lost to Hughes.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Alex_DeLarge said:


> Then lost to Hughes.


_BJ only lost to Hughes because of his cardio. He would destroy him now if they meet again. His cardio changed at 180 degree! 

And i am also pretty sure, that he would clean out the WW devison except GSP!

His Cardio Training is on the very best of any MMA fighter right now._


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Alex_DeLarge said:


> Then lost to Hughes.


He lost solely because of his conditioning. He gassed really badly. With his new strength and conditioning training i really cant see this being a problem.


----------



## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

BobbyCooper said:


> _BJ only lost to Hughes because of his cardio. He would destroy him now if they meet again. His cardio changed at 180 degree!
> 
> And i am also pretty sure, that he would clean out the WW devison except GSP!
> 
> His Cardio Training is on the very best of any MMA fighter right now._





Mckeever said:


> He lost solely because of his conditioning. He gassed really badly. With his new strength and conditioning training i really cant see this being a problem.


It had more to do with the separated ribs...but Alex is right...BJ has no gas tank at 170. That is the end of the discussion. He was supposed to be the new BJ with more focus in each of his last two fights at that weight. He just can't keep his cardio up at that weight...his body wouldn't allow it earlier and the older you get the harder it gets. So I don't see it happening now.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

_BJ is in the best shape of his life right now! 155 or 170 doesn't make any difference f you train the same way he does right now. Those are only 15lbs thats really not much for a guy who walks around at 165 probably does he??:confused02:_


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> It had more to do with the separated ribs...but Alex is right...BJ has no gas tank at 170. That is the end of the discussion. He was supposed to be the new BJ with more focus in each of his last two fights at that weight. He just can't keep his cardio up at that weight...his body wouldn't allow it earlier and the older you get the harder it gets. So I don't see it happening now.


But he is under a completely different training regime now. Now he can back up his claims of being a "new and improved BJ" because he has started undertaking the necessary training.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> But he is under a completely different training regime now. Now he can back up his claims of being a "new and improved BJ" because he has started undertaking the necessary training.


_
Excatly! He finally started to actually train like a professional :thumbsup:_


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Yeah i dont think 15lb would make go from being able to go like 7 rounds like he could now. Judging how he made Diego's face look like a pizza and wasn't even close to being gassed at the 5th round, Bj sounds to be more focused with his new weight trainers but we will find out if that was the difference probably pretty soon because no one is left in the LW division even Joe Rogen was going on and on about that during the fight lol. It should be interesting to see who he fights and how he does


----------



## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

kieranm said:


> haha i havent heard that one ever i want to see him fight faber brown aldo kos and gsp


 
Here's exactly what would happen to al those fighters you just happened to mention......they would lose!!!!


http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/68348-who-next-bj-frankie-edgar-gray-maynard-2.html#post1068413


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

attention said:


> ...before hitting the wall against GSP.
> 
> IMHO, BJ could move down and clean out the 145 division... but I think that could happen all to easily for him.
> 
> ...


Penn is definitely the best LW in the world, but I don't think he'd do well as a WW. Let's not forget that an old Hughes stopped him.


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

I think that it would definitely be interesting to see Penn make a move to WW. I doubt he would though. He is one of the best fighters in the world without a doubt. He could also do some serious damage at WW. But I doubt that he would be as dominant at WW as he is at LW. He owns the LW division, but I think he would struggle against the bigger WW fighters in the division.


----------



## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> But he is under a completely different training regime now. Now he can back up his claims of being a "new and improved BJ" because he has started undertaking the necessary training.


He is always under a completely different regimen...and none of them work at 170.


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> He is always under a completely different regimen...and none of them work at 170.


No, I don't see it happening. I don't see anyone at 155 beating him, nor him beating the top tier at 170. .....unless Anthony Johnson decides to drop down and challenge him.


----------



## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Calminian said:


> No, I don't see it happening. I don't see anyone at 155 beating him, nor him beating the top tier at 170. .....unless Anthony Johnson decides to drop down and challenge him.


So are you agreeing with me then? Your sentence that begins with no is confusing.:confused02:


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> _BJ is in the best shape of his life right now! 155 or 170 doesn't make any difference f you train the same way he does right now. Those are only 15lbs thats really not much for a guy who walks around at 165 probably does he??:confused02:_


Its much more than 15 pounds, fact is BJ is still not a large LW, BJ could probably cut to 145, alot of the top WW's cut a fairly substantial amount of weight hell the diffrence beween BJ and Thiago Alves is probably a good 35 pounds, Anthony Johnson probably has 40-45.


----------



## payableondeath (Jun 13, 2007)

I agree, he would clean out 170 as well but KOS would give him a good match, as well as Fitch maybe..although I think BJ could finish Jon Fitch. Everyone knows the road ends at GSP though..and until BJ trains better at 170 he wont win that fight.


----------



## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

payableondeath said:


> I agree, he would clean out 170 as well but KOS would give him a good match, as well as Fitch maybe..although I think BJ could finish Jon Fitch. Everyone knows the road ends at GSP though..and until BJ trains better at 170 he wont win that fight.


 
I see Fitch having way more heart and stamina than KOS.....I dont like KOS, but I know he is good, he wouldnt beat BJ.....Fitch would scare me more....and he basically is just a wrestler...


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Its much more than 15 pounds, fact is BJ is still not a large LW, BJ could probably cut to 145, alot of the top WW's cut a fairly substantial amount of weight hell the diffrence beween BJ and Thiago Alves is probably a good 35 pounds, Anthony Johnson probably has 40-45.


That is what I was thinking. He would be giving up a ton of strength against someone like Rumble or Alves. They are massive compared to Penn. I mean they are big compared to GSP. And GSP was big compared to Penn.


----------



## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

HitOrGetHit said:


> That is what I was thinking. He would be giving up a ton of strength against someone like Rumble or Alves. They are massive compared to Penn. I mean they are big compared to GSP. And GSP was big compared to Penn.


 
I'm not sure Rumble could make 155....:confused05:


----------



## payableondeath (Jun 13, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> I'm not sure Rumble could make 155....:confused05:


they are talking about BJ moving up and cleaning out the WW division, not WW fighters coming down to fight Penn.


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> I'm not sure Rumble could make 155....:confused05:


Yeah, it's about BJ moving up. 

Rumble can barely make WW haha. He is a big dude.


----------



## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

HitOrGetHit said:


> That is what I was thinking. He would be giving up a ton of strength against someone like Rumble or Alves. They are massive compared to Penn. I mean they are big compared to GSP. And GSP was big compared to Penn.


IMHO, I think Penn could potentially gain some strength moving up... but I dont think thats where he would want to balance out anyways... I think BJ's 'strength' has always been his technique, where having more 'weight strength' may not be beneficial regardless.

I think that strong wrestlers like Kos & Fitch may try to control him on the ground... and end up getting submitted. While strikers like Alves will get out struck on their feet. Alves is a strong striker admittedly, but hes a poor boxer compared to BJ... where again, its not about the power and more about the technique.

Im admitting though, there is no predicting how his cardio will be at 170 with his new strength and conditioning regiment.


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

attention said:


> IMHO, I think Penn could potentially gain some strength moving up... but I dont think thats where he would want to balance out anyways... I think BJ's 'strength' has always been his technique, where having more 'weight strength' may not be beneficial regardless.
> 
> I think that strong wrestlers like Kos & Fitch may try to control him on the ground... and end up getting submitted. While strikers like Alves will get out struck on their feet. Alves is a strong striker admittedly, but hes a poor boxer compared to BJ... where again, its not about the power and more about the technique.
> 
> Im admitting though, there is no predicting how his cardio will be at 170 with his new strength and conditioning regiment.


Man it took me forever to get through your post. I couldn't stop watching your GIF of Penn dropping Sanchez. Hurts me to see it again.

Anyway, I agree that Penn's technique is why is is one of the best in the world. I do think that he would gain some strength if he moved up. But I do not believe that he would be as strong as some of the bigger WW fighters.


----------



## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

I wanna see Penn v. Fitch, clash of the titan chins.


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

swpthleg said:


> I wanna see Penn v. Fitch, clash of the titan chins.


That fight would be awesome! I would love it! I think that Fitch could stay out of trouble on the ground as well. So I am very interested in this fight.


----------



## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

HitOrGetHit said:


> That fight would be awesome! I would love it! I think that Fitch could stay out of trouble on the ground as well. So I am very interested in this fight.


Definitely would be very cool.
It would set the record straight about how BJ would do in the ww division... but doesnt that make Fitch a gate keeper :confused02:


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

attention said:


> Definitely would be very cool.
> It would set the record straight about how BJ would do in the ww division... but doesnt that make Fitch a gate keeper :confused02:


I don't think that being the test for BJ Penn would make him a gatekeeper. People like Heath Herring are gate keepers!


----------



## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

payableondeath said:


> they are talking about BJ moving up and cleaning out the WW division, not WW fighters coming down to fight Penn.





HitOrGetHit said:


> Yeah, it's about BJ moving up.
> 
> Rumble can barely make WW haha. He is a big dude.


 
Whoops, reaching behind myself to catch up....I would agree, I think BJ would have trouble getting to 170 he looks pudgy BJ when he fights there, he was only like 166 when he fought GSP....:thumbsup:


----------



## surfereddie (Dec 14, 2009)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> It is all thanks to Marv Marinovich:sarcastic12::sarcastic12:
> 
> I don't think I agree here Attention. I mean BJ has a complete lack of ability to gain weight and stay in shape. If he does, then he hasn't shown it yet. He is 0-3 in his last fights at WW, and only looked impressive in 3 of the 10 rounds he fought at the weight over the last few years.
> 
> I want to see it, but only because a fight with Alvarez will never happen and he is about the only LW with a skill set and talent combo to beat him. But I still think BJ TKO's or RNC's him by round 3.


Well said with the weight gain comment. And the sport has changed so much in the last 10 years. Everybody has bjj skills at the upper levels. You have to smack a tier 1 fighter real good to loosen them up for a submission. I think he would be in for some real wars at 170. Basically you remove his KO power at that weight so we'd see a lot of ground work. I'm not opposed to seeing some of that. But please not another GSP rematch. GSP is just as dominate in his weight class as BJ is at 155.


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> So are you agreeing with me then? Your sentence that begins with no is confusing.:confused02:


I was agreeing with you.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Its much more than 15 pounds, fact is BJ is still not a large LW, BJ could probably cut to 145, alot of the top WW's cut a fairly substantial amount of weight hell the diffrence beween BJ and Thiago Alves is probably a good 35 pounds, Anthony Johnson probably has 40-45.


_Thats right! They will always have an advantage in size but still the skill difference of Penn compared to the number 1 contender in the WW devision is huge. 30lbs would only help a very strong Wrestler like Kosh or Fitch._


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Why do u guys think BJ sucks so bad against guys that are 20 to 30 pounds more.... I swear if that GSP fight the second time never happend we would all be looking at the BIG people he ALREADY beat at WW or in his career and be like, he is going to KILL everyone in WW other then GSP... Like im sure we all agree that Matt Houghes is a BIG dude and that he is a PURE wrestler and we saw what Penn did to him, and the only loss he had on Houghes wasnt because how strong he was it was because of Bj's Cardio, (which i dont think would be the factor in the fight again) He isn't a idiot he is thinking all that were talking about, and he saw how his cardio was the factor and he will be VERY well prepared this time. He fought Lyoto Machida as a Heavy Weight and Lyoto agruably one of the best strikers. And did you know that he went into that fight with Lyoto, at 
191 lb? And Lyoto was 220 lb? And he got to a close dicision and Bj wasn't completely gassed,and of coarse both fighters have evolved since then but Bj can put on a few pounds and bang if he wants, and he didnt even have the wieght trainers he does now.... So like i said Matt Houghes is a beasty man! and he beat Matt Serra too and he is easly as big as any of those dudes in WW (I dont know about Thiago though) But he HAD the belt at WW its not like he never proved himself against BIG DUDES. I'm not saying BJ will cream them all, but this forum is starting to talk like he never fought someone in WW like he will be out strength to the point where his talent wouldnt be the factor and there strength would.... I dont think so..... I really dont think there going to be THAT much stronger at all, and i think Bj likes fighting Big dudes after he gets over those GSP nightmares, but honostly i seen GSP do the same thing to BJ as he did to Thiago, Fitch, Kos, Houghes, ect... So i wouldnt base the fact that he cant handle big dudes just off that... I mean GSP pulled his groin in the 1st or 2nd round, and still took Big Thaigo down AT WILL... Gsp is just scary, we REALLY need another Super Fight and im not talking BJ vs GSP 3 im talking the fight that should of happend in the first place.... ANDERSON VS GSP kick that canadian BUTT!


----------



## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

But the fight did happen and we did see it. So your whole point is moot. Other then your whole premise being flawed you make sense. Actually none of it holds weight. But one thing I am wondering is what welterweights are you talking about? Who has bj dominated at 170?


----------



## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Everyone talks about BJ moving up to 170, i think it would be a lot better if he moved down to 145 and fought Aldo, now theres a fight Hardcore fans want to see. I think BJ would beat him pretty easily though.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

_No i don't wanna see him fight at 145lbs. BJ needs some serious competition now, or will get bored even more^^ I don't see how Aldo could be able to beat BJ.
Dana says he needs one more fight until he cleaned out the devison...:confused02: in my opinion he already did! Let him go up again, this kid is in the best shape of his life. Let him go :thumbsup:_


----------



## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

DJ Syko said:


> Everyone talks about BJ moving up to 170, i think it would be a lot better if he moved down to 145 and fought Aldo, now theres a fight Hardcore fans want to see. I think BJ would beat him pretty easily though.


 

^^^THIS^^^



He would own Aldo too....


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> ^^^THIS^^^
> 
> 
> 
> He would own Aldo too....


I think that Aldo could make it interesting on the feet. I am not saying that he would win. But I would be amazed if BJ did to Aldo what he did to Sanchez. I think that the speed of Aldo could make this a sick fight. I would absolutely love this fight.

And to think if the UFC and WEC were to merge, this fight could happen easily. But they don't seem to want to do that.


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

HitOrGetHit said:


> I think that Aldo could make it interesting on the feet. I am not saying that he would win. But I would be amazed if BJ did to Aldo what he did to Sanchez. I think that the speed of Aldo could make this a sick fight. I would absolutely love this fight.
> 
> And to think if the UFC and WEC were to merge, this fight could happen easily. But they don't seem to want to do that.



If they were to merge? Umm THEY DID lol.... Didn't u ever think why ALL the weight classes above FW went to UFC? Dana White owns both UFC and WEC thats why he merged his HW - LW to UFC, and all got owned like we knew they would. I do like Jose Aldo though and he is young and already a champ but unless u dont like Jose Aldo and want to see him get raped i wouldnt want to see this fight. Because yeah he is fast but he would get countered up the ass and wouldnt land shit... I would bet money on Diego Sanchez no a Diego Sanchez vs Jose Aldo anyday....


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Machida Karate said:


> If they were to merge? Umm THEY DID lol.... Didn't u ever think why ALL the weight classes above FW went to UFC? Dana White owns both UFC and WEC thats why he merged his HW - LW to UFC, and all got owned like we knew they would. I do like Jose Aldo though and he is young and already a champ but unless u dont like Jose Aldo and want to see him get raped i wouldnt want to see this fight. Because yeah he is fast but he would get countered up the ass and wouldnt land shit... I would bet money on Diego Sanchez no a Diego Sanchez vs Jose Aldo anyday....


That's not what I meant. I know that Zuffa owns the UFC and the WEC. I am talking about having FW and BW in the UFC and having one company instead of two seperately operated companies in the UFC and the WEC.

And Dana White is not the president of the WEC and he is not the owner of the UFC.


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Well i saw a interview with Dana and a guy asked him about that, and he said something about wanting his thing with Spike and his thing with VS and he chose to combine the higher weights because he said if people are paying PPV then there going to want to watch HW and lighter to make sure we get a exciting fight. And doesnt want like some feather weights in UFC and same in WEC or the other way around. And I know Dana doesn't Own it by himself, i just dont bother to figure all the unimportant peoples names so the name Dana usually covers it lol


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Machida Karate said:


> Well i saw a interview with Dana and a guy asked him about that, and he said something about wanting his thing with Spike and his thing with VS and he chose to combine the higher weights because he said if people are paying PPV then there going to want to watch HW and lighter to make sure we get a exciting fight. And doesnt want like some feather weights in UFC and same in WEC or the other way around


He would definitely have a say in a decision like that as he is the president of the UFC. But he is only the UFC president.

UFC President: Dana White
UFC Matchmaker: Joe Silva

WEC President: Reed Harris
WEC Matchmaker: Scott Adams

A company named Zuffa owns both the WEC and the UFC. But Dana White does not own either.


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

HitOrGetHit said:


> He would definitely have a say in a decision like that as he is the president of the UFC. But he is only the UFC president.
> 
> UFC President: Dana White
> UFC Matchmaker: Joe Silva
> ...


I bet Reed Harris gets told what to do all day lol, and Joe Silva like picks all the fights unless Dana tell him otherwise what there going to do, and the reason Liddel is coaching again lol


----------



## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Basically the Ferttitas own both the UFC and WEC and Dana is a glorified promoter who tries to act like a businessman but his inability to stop saying F**k in every other sentence doesn't help.....

There for the greatest title he will ever have is President and 10% owner and having the legacy of convincing the Ferttitas to buy the UFC....


----------



## surfereddie (Dec 14, 2009)

Machida Karate said:


> Why do u guys think BJ sucks so bad against guys that are 20 to 30 pounds more.... I swear if that GSP fight the second time never happend we would all be looking at the BIG people he ALREADY beat at WW or in his career and be like, he is going to KILL everyone in WW other then GSP... Like im sure we all agree that Matt Houghes is a BIG dude and that he is a PURE wrestler and we saw what Penn did to him, and the only loss he had on Houghes wasnt because how strong he was it was because of Bj's Cardio, (which i dont think would be the factor in the fight again) He isn't a idiot he is thinking all that were talking about, and he saw how his cardio was the factor and he will be VERY well prepared this time. He fought Lyoto Machida as a Heavy Weight and Lyoto agruably one of the best strikers. And did you know that he went into that fight with Lyoto, at
> 191 lb? And Lyoto was 220 lb? And he got to a close dicision and Bj wasn't completely gassed,and of coarse both fighters have evolved since then but Bj can put on a few pounds and bang if he wants, and he didnt even have the wieght trainers he does now.... So like i said Matt Houghes is a beasty man! and he beat Matt Serra too and he is easly as big as any of those dudes in WW (I dont know about Thiago though) But he HAD the belt at WW its not like he never proved himself against BIG DUDES. I'm not saying BJ will cream them all, but this forum is starting to talk like he never fought someone in WW like he will be out strength to the point where his talent wouldnt be the factor and there strength would.... I dont think so..... I really dont think there going to be THAT much stronger at all, and i think Bj likes fighting Big dudes after he gets over those GSP nightmares, but honostly i seen GSP do the same thing to BJ as he did to Thiago, Fitch, Kos, Houghes, ect... So i wouldnt base the fact that he cant handle big dudes just off that... I mean GSP pulled his groin in the 1st or 2nd round, and still took Big Thaigo down AT WILL... Gsp is just scary, we REALLY need another Super Fight and im not talking BJ vs GSP 3 im talking the fight that should of happend in the first place.... ANDERSON VS GSP kick that canadian BUTT!


Ok, skill level these day is not the same as it was 5 years ago. Look at Royce Gracie vs Matt Hughes that was a classic example of the progression of the sport. Everybody has those bjj skills now. Of course Gumby BJ is better than everybody in that department but everybody can (if they didn't just eat a fist or knee) defend against it. So BJ is going in against these very accomplished fighters at larger weights no matter how hard he trains he's going to have cardio problems because he will wind up wrestling these guys. You try wrestling a guy 30 lbs heavier than you. The smaller guy will always gas. BJ would be able rip through the nobodies but would have problems at the tier 1 fighters. Also, they would be wrestling matches and not very exciting since he can't knock them out and BJ hasn't been KO yet so I see a lot of clinching and not very exciting.


----------

