# Who is the best HW in the world?



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Alot of people are going to say Brock but truth be told i think Saturday proved that Brock and Carwin are FAR from being the best. Whos next??? Fedor... I would agree with that statement but the Loss against Werdum makes it hard to justify it on Paper. In theory Fedor could still be considered the best but on paper it might not be as easy. Who else do we have?? Cain Valesquez?? he has the potential to one day be the best as it is right now he hasnt had enough fights to be the best, his size could also be a problem in the future. JDS? To me right now id say he is the closest to being the best HW fighter out there. I say this because the guy is amazing all around. He has Amazing Boxing skill for a HW. His takedown defense has been tested and he passed. His ground game is somewhat a Question mark but in all reality training with the people he trains with there is NO possible way for him to be a slouch there. He is still very young and will continue to improve but even now he holds 1 sided wins against the likes of Mirko,Gonzaga,Yvel,Struve and the person that recently has beaten the Last Emperor (Fedor) Fabricio Werdum. This is my opinion of-course and in no way am i saying anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. I personally think we are in a weird place right now when it comes to determining the best HW in the world. Brock is an easy person to say is number 1 but with the performance he put in on Saturday can we "really" say he IS the best HW in the world? i think the BEST should be alot better then what Brock showed on Saturday Night.

I also would like to add Overeem to this list. I think what Carwin started on saturday overeem would have finished. Overeem is the MUCH better striker.. he has a much better Gas Tank then Carwin does and he also seems to be a freakish strong guy. Id put him in the top 3 in the UFC.


So my question to you guys is who do you guys think is the best?? If you disagree with me thats fine but tell me why you disagree not that just im an "idiot". If you agree also tell me why... I made this thread for your opinions so feel free to say w/e you want no matter how silly.


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## Jefferson10 (Jul 10, 2009)

Brock, He is the best till he gets beaten. Until then, He is still the best.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Jefferson10 said:


> Brock, He is the best till he gets beaten. Until then, He is still the best.


he has been beaten... there are other HW out there that havent though.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

I didn't read the essay without breaks but I think JDS is the best. CroCop is the second best HW striker in the UFC and he was overwhelmed in the end. He reminds me a lot of a Badr Hari with his size and athleticism just a lot more raw. Overeem is the only guy I see knocking him out standing and I would say that is a 50/50 matchup. 

Carwin hits really hard but his technique blows and he has no gas tank JDS is a monster with his hand combinations and cardio for HW. Plus, Blackhouse mother fucker.


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## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> he has been beaten... there are other HW out there that havent though.


I'd love for you to list them, and we'll pick you apart from there.


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## MikeHawk (Sep 11, 2009)

There is no clear cut best right now. However, it'd be much easier to make a case for Lesnar than anyone else.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

UrbanBounca said:


> I'd love for you to list them, and we'll pick you apart from there.


Cain Velasquez for instance.

Pick me apart?? Lmao... Please leave this thread already. I can tell your a troll so im not even sure if i wanna have a discussion with you. Throw your argument out there so i can shut you down already... Try to be creative please.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

MikeHawk said:


> There is no clear cut best right now. However, it'd be much easier to make a case for Lesnar than anyone else.


Cain would probably actually be the easiest to make a case for being the best. He is still undefeated and their strength of opponents are about equal. He also has 3 more wins. That will be decided in the next HW title fight though so we won't have to wait very long to find out.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

osmium said:


> Cain would probably actually be the easiest to make a case for being the best. He is still undefeated and their strength of opponents are about equal. He also has 3 more wins. That will be decided in the next HW title fight though so we won't have to wait very long to find out.


I do think Cain has the potential to be the best. Only reason right now i dont think he is is because to ME he hasnt fought anyone in the ELITE level. Possibly Nog?? but nog isnt looking as good as he used to. Only thing stopping Cain from being the number 1 in my books is the fights he has been given.


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## diablo5597 (Nov 12, 2008)

I don't really think there is one HW who would beat all the other HW's. I think Fedor is the best overall though. I think he would win against the most people.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

diablo5597 said:


> I don't really think there is one HW who would beat all the other HW's. I think Fedor is the best overall though. I think he would win against the most people.


id agree to an extent. Fedor has had the best career out of any fighter thats for sure. I still think he could be the Champion in the UFC but that would be hard to argue on paper.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Fedor would get destroyed by JDS, Cain, Lesnar, and Carwin and I would pick Mir in a fight with him but he does dumb shit that costs him fights so who knows with that one. Fedor thinks Ironhead hits hard Carwin would 2 inch punch a hole in his head.


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## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> Cain Velasquez for instance.
> 
> Pick me apart?? Lmao... Please leave this thread already. I can tell your a troll so im not even sure if i wanna have a discussion with you. Throw your argument out there so i can shut you down already... Try to be creative please.


Well, that's where you're wrong. Cain is undefeated, but he only has one win over a top 10 HW, and that's Big Nog. (He was ranked at the time.) Do you still believe Cain should be ranked above Lesnar, who has taken out Herring, Couture, Mir, and Carwin? Mir, Couture, and Carwin were all ranked in the *top 5*, when Lesnar beat them.

Do you have another?


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## RKiller (May 17, 2007)

Is it really that hard to see Lesnar beating just about any other HW right now? I realize he is pretty sloppy but the guy still wins.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Brock is one, but mostly by default now that Fedor has lost you can't make a great case for anyone. My personal top ten would be which I assume I will get flamed for is 

1. Brock Lesnar - beating Carwin after a Mir layoff and wins over Mir, Couture, and Herring makes him number 1.

2. Junior dos Santos - to me 12-1 is better than 8-0 plus he has win over Werdum who has a win over Fedor so as Werdum rises so does JDS.

3. Fabricio Werdum - he has a shot at being number 1 but he needs to fight and beat Alistair Overeem again and be Strikeforce's champion.

4. Fedor Emelianenko - with a loss to Werdum he drops to 4, his biggest win was Big Nog five years ago he's going to drop like a stone if he can't find a top 10 fighter to face.

5. Cain Velasquez - I think he's to small, and I don't think he's beaten anyone major yet. But he gets a title shot and if he beats Brock he'll be 1.


*These five guys can be number 1 with one fight, they can also lose their spots based on how other fights turn out.*

6. Shane Carwin - Fedor's loss drops Fedor from 1 to 4, Carwin's loss drops him from 3 to 6. He's the best fighter who can't be number 1 in the next 6 months.

7. Alistair Cees Overeem - his record isn't that impressive and he doesn't have any quality wins even with a win against Werdum or Emelianenko that's only going to push him up to 2 or 3 spots in my eyes.

8. Frank Mir - his win's over Lesnar and Big Nog keeps him in the top ten but he needs to fight and beat one of the top four UFC HW's or else he's going to get passed.

9. Roy Nelson - If Big Country beats JDS he moves up to fifth. Roy f'n Nelson is two fights away from being the best fighter in the world.

10. Antonio Silva - Werdum's massive jump in the rankings pulls up Silva. That and the fact that every other guy who could be tenth got killed (Rodgers, Nog, Kongo) or looked really bad with their win (Rothwell, Russow).


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

John8204 said:


> Brock is one, but mostly by default now that Fedor has lost you can't make a great case for anyone. My personal top ten would be which I assume I will get flamed for is
> 
> 1. Brock Lesnar - beating Carwin after a Mir layoff and wins over Mir, Couture, and Herring makes him number 1.
> 
> ...


1. Lesnar
2. JDS
3. Velasquez
4. Werdum
5. Fedor
6. Carwin
7. Mir
8. NOG
9. Overeem
10. Silva

I'd put Velasquez 3rd and then drop Werdum and Fedor down one. Cain's undefeated. He beat NOG which Werdum couldn't do. Fedor just lost so I drop him down one. I put NOG #8, because even though he's had some bad losses he still holds wins over ranked opponents. Overeem I drop to 9, because the only ranked HW he's ever beaten is Brett "can anyone figure out why I was ranked" Rogers. I don't have Nelson on the list because he's never beaten a ranked HW, or even a very good one.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> 1. Lesnar
> 2. JDS
> 3. Velasquez
> 4. Werdum
> ...


That's fair, you give Nog credit for what he's done I go with Nelson for what he can do. Nelson is 2 fights away from being the undisputed number one fighter in the world(not that he has a chance) while Nog is two more vicious KO's from being cut. I also don't think Mir and Nog should be that close together based on how the fight went and who they've fought recently.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

John8204 said:


> That's fair, you give Nog credit for what he's done I go with Nelson for what he can do. Nelson is 2 fights away from being the undisputed number one fighter in the world(not that he has a chance) while Nog is two more vicious KO's from being cut. I also don't think Mir and Nog should be that close together based on how the fight went and who they've fought recently.


Those are two fights that he won't win. JDS might kill him. Every time he's stepped up in competition (Rothwell, Arlovski, and Monson) he's lost.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Those are two fights that he won't win. JDS might kill him. Every time he's stepped up in competition (Rothwell, Arlovski, and Monson) he's lost.


Very true, but on the other hand I kind of think he matches up well with a number of guys in the top ten right now. I'm not betting on him with JDS or Lesnar but I might bet on him to beat Carwin, Mir, and Nog. The issue is with him has he matured as a fighter now in any other division that wouldn't make him a top ten fighter...but thanks to parity it does in the HW division. And as we both agree he's fighting the number 2 HW in the world. I just think he's going to lose and you think he's going to die


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

John8204 said:


> Very true, but on the other hand I kind of think he matches up well with a number of guys in the top ten right now. I'm not betting on him with JDS or Lesnar but I might bet on him to beat Carwin, Mir, and Nog. The issue is with him has he matured as a fighter now in any other division that wouldn't make him a top ten fighter...but thanks to parity it does in the HW division. And as we both agree he's fighting the number 2 HW in the world. I just think he's going to lose and you think he's going to die


Maybe NOG (depending on how much he has deteriorated), but I think Carwin and Mir beat him handily.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Hate to say it but the best Heavy Weight right now is shane Carwin. Yes Lesnar one but i believe carwin story of him being cramp up cause his cardio sucked. All of you can't denied he whooped lesnar ass and lesnar escaped with a lucky victory.


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## drey2k (Jul 9, 2009)

Right now it is totally up in the air.

Carwin and Lesnar both proved they have MAJOR holes in their game.

JDS has not been sufficiently tested on the ground.

Cain has a suspect chin.

Fedor just lost.

Overeem is not in the UFC.


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## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

Wait, isn't that the reason why a belt exists? So we wouldn't need a topic like this?


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Leed said:


> Wait, isn't that the reason why a belt exists? So we wouldn't need a topic like this?


We do Brock is the champ:
-Fedor is the most skilled HW
-Ovreem is a beast who is more skilled than Brock
-Carwin killed Brock but got gassed...improve cardio could make him the baddest man on the planet
-Cain and Junior both stikers that can beat the champ
-Frank Mir wants to beat the champ, also one of the most skilled HW
-Werdum has accomplish something that puts his name right back into the mix.


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## TomUK (Nov 22, 2009)

Brock
JDS
Cain


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

marcthegame said:


> We do Brock is the champ:
> -Fedor is the most skilled HW
> -Ovreem is a beast who is more skilled than Brock
> -Carwin killed Brock but got gassed...improve cardio could make him the baddest man on the planet
> ...


Overeem is more skilled? No he just has a different skill set. Cain isn't a striker, he's a wrestler.


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## Fedorthebest (Jun 1, 2010)

marcthegame said:


> We do Brock is the champ:
> -Fedor is the most skilled HW
> *-Ovreem is a beast who is more skilled than Brock*
> -Carwin killed Brock but got gassed...improve cardio could make him the baddest man on the planet
> ...


ahahahahahahahahahahaahahah sureeeee

and 4 what concern "Carwin killed Brock but got gassed...improve cardio could make him the baddest man on the planet" what a nice post...i can tell u if brock improve his standing he will be god...


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## usernamewoman (Sep 24, 2007)

i remember brocks last fight at ufc 100 and his poor attitude after the fight, that is something that alot of fans cant let go of,i dont think that there is a number one heavyweight in the world right now, right now there is a tie for that number one spot


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

It was pretty much universally accepted that the winner of this fight would be the best Heavyweight in the world - especially in the light of Fedor's recent defeat. What exactly has changed? Brock defeated a man who was widely considered to be his biggest challenger. 

He was not entirely dominant during the fight, in fact he clearly lost the first round. Being rocked in the first round after being hit by one of the predominant KO artists in the world, and recovering to the point where he finished the round in a controlling position, is impressive. Which ever way you look at it. 

He then came out in the second round and easily took Shane down, passed through his transitions and locked on a nice submission. He won the fight, fair and square. He is the number one HW in the world. 

The real question is, if Carwin with all his power and brute force cant put Brock away, which HW can? Of the ones that could (maybe JDS or Overreem) would they be able to stop the takedown? Probably not. 

For whatever reason people do not like to admit it, but the fact is that Brock has proven himself to be the best in the world. One round where he was not entirely dominant against an incredibly dangerous fighter does not change that. 

Remember the Randleman slam anyone?


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Dream-On-101 said:


> It was pretty much universally accepted that the winner of this fight would be the best Heavyweight in the world - especially in the light of Fedor's recent defeat. What exactly has changed? Brock defeated a man who was widely considered to be his biggest challenger.
> 
> He was not entirely dominant during the fight, in fact he clearly lost the first round. Being rocked in the first round after being hit by one of the predominant KO artists in the world, and recovering to the point where he finished the round in a controlling position, is impressive. Which ever way you look at it.
> 
> ...


This. As of now, Brock is clearly #1, his comeback proves even more than a dominant win would.

And IMO Fedor is still #2 despite being subbed. Because I see Fedor's sub as more of a dude he was smashing flopping on him like a twit pretending to be hurt, and Fedor falling into his trap. This kind of thing would never work under pride rules or more realistic fight rules, anyone would stomp you for that kind of shit instead of being forced to wade into your guard. This is as opposed to taking a guy down at will and imposing the sub wih brute strength like Lesnar did. Fedor still has the most dominant career apart from that


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I think that the best HW in the World right now is Cain!

Top 3 look like this for me..

1.Cain
2.JDS
3.Brock


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## Fedorthebest (Jun 1, 2010)

1-Brock
2-Fedor
3-Carwin


etc etc


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

I think non biased ranking that is based more on wins and performance in the most recent fights rather than potential would look something like this:
1. Lesnar
2. Carwin
3. Cain
4. JDS
5. Overeem
6. Mir
7. Werdum
8. Fedor
9. Nelson
10. Rogers/Gonzaga/Nog/CC/Kongo/Arlovski/Silva - yeah you can try ranking ranks 10-16 if you want to. 

Notice I said "not based on potential", so while I think JDS could very well be able to beat Carwin and Nelson could beat for example Cain, the list is based on the performance. Fedor may seem to be bit low, but he hasn't really beaten any big names too recently and just got choked out by an ufc reject (a very good reject though) who got wrecked by JDS not too long time ago. 
Also I would rank Cain above Carwin already, but excluding the Lesnar fight Carwin has better resume plus its not like that loss against Brock was so devastating that it would flat out drop him on the rankings. Cain could very well be ranked above Carwin even if he loses to Lesnar, based on the fight ofcourse.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

Formally, Brock Lesnar is #1 HW in the World. Is he the best HW judging by his skills, MMA record, physique, power and potential? Overall, maybe he is and maybe he isn't.
Brock has the best physique, 
Cigano (with Cain at #2) - potential,
Carwin - power, 
Fedor - MMA record and arguably the skills (overall, of course. I could mention Velásquez but he was called a fighter with pillow hands not too long ago. JDS does not seem like a BJJ expert comparing to Werdum or Nogueira, so in that aspect I put him behind Overeem, whose striking looks better to me, and he has displayed submission skills as well, let alone the fact that Alistair is bigger and stronger).
In other words, it is impossible to say who is the best HW fighter. Everyone has flaws, especially considering that Lesnar, Emelianenko, Werdum and Carwin aren't so young, so there is not much potential left to release.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Brock
Velasquez
Fedor
JDS
Carwin
Overeem
Werdum
Mir
Nelson
Antonio Silva


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Going by performances I say Velasquez is the best. As far as rankings, that is obvious who wins. On the list of who is the BEST Cain slightly edges out JDS for me just because he's shown more of his tools.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Diokhan said:


> I think non biased ranking that is based more on wins and performance in the most recent fights rather than potential would look something like this:
> 1. Lesnar
> 2. Carwin
> 3. Cain
> ...


I thought this list was the best. I would have Fedor at five and Overeem at six though.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

For me its;

Cain
Brock
Overeem
JDS

So far, JDS hasnt been tested against a good wrestler like brock or cain. How he would deal with elite wrestling at this point is a mystery. He has proven he can beat the Ju Jitsu guys in Werdum and Gonzaga, but he has yet to be tested against a wrestler. I recall Gonzaga taking JDS down, i think once brock or maybe carwin got their hands on JDS, they would take him down.

I rank Overeem above JDS because he has better, more diverse striking and has proven to have a great all round game, some thing we havnt seen from JDS.


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> I rank Overeem above JDS because he has better, more diverse striking and has proven to have a great all round game, some thing we havnt seen from JDS.


If you are referring to his ground game in a way I agree. However I don't think its pretty hard to criticize someone's ground game who has displayed near perfect takedown defense so far. 
Im Still hoping that Nelson will score a takedown against JDS so we'll atleast see a little of his ground game, but until he gets taken down and abused on the ground I don't think we can really rank Overeem above him just because JDS has finished all his opponents standing without ever going to ground.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

_



Let's use the heavyweight division for example, the best fighter in the heavyweight division right now is a guy named Cain Velasquez. I don't think the media knows that, in fact I know they don't. But the guys in the back do.

Click to expand...

_Mr Sonnen said it. 

I think it's impossible to name the best HW in teh world until all of them face each other.
But if i would have to rank them:
Cain
Overeem
Brock
Fedor
JDS
Carwin
Werdum
+ the rest


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

1. Carwin
2. Brock 
3. Cain 
4. Jds


Dispite the loss I still believe carwin to be the best in the world. No one knew what brock's chin was like. He was dominating the fight easily a 10-8 round but he made a stupid mistake. He probably threw more punches in that round than he has in his entire prior career. Next time he fights he won't make the same mistake and will beat him.


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## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> Hate to say it but the best Heavy Weight right now is shane Carwin. Yes Lesnar one but i believe carwin story of him being cramp up cause his cardio sucked. All of you can't denied he whooped lesnar ass and lesnar escaped with a lucky victory.


How can you say Carwin, who lost to Lesnar not even a week ago, is the best HW? Lesnar waited for Shane to gas, and capitalized on Carwin's pathetic stamina.

I'm going to reemphasize my previous point in that Cain is undefeated, but he only has one win over a top 10 HW, and that's Big Nog. (He was ranked at the time.) Why does everyone believe Cain should be ranked above Lesnar, who has taken out Herring, Couture, Mir, and Carwin? Mir, Couture, and Carwin were all ranked in the *top five*, when Lesnar beat them.



americanfighter said:


> 1. Carwin
> 2. Brock
> 3. Cain
> 4. Jds
> ...


Until they fight again, Lesnar should be above him. Personally, I think Penn is better than Edgar, but until Penn actually takes him out, I can't rank Penn above him.

I'm seeing a lot of Lesnar hate, which is apparently coming into play over common sense.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

limba said:


> Mr Sonnen said it.
> 
> I think it's impossible to name the best HW in teh world until all of them face each other.
> But if i would have to rank them:
> ...


So when Sonnen talks about Anderson Silva he is a jackass but when he ranks a fighter above Lesnar it's gospel? Let's not forget that he placed himself at the top of the 185lb heap:confused03:


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

americanfighter said:


> 1. Carwin
> 2. Brock
> 3. Cain
> 4. Jds
> ...


This makes no sense at all.



BobbyCooper said:


> I think that the best HW in the World right now is Cain!
> 
> Top 3 look like this for me..
> 
> ...


Cain has one win over a top opponent. Why is he over Brock who has 3 wins over ranked opponents?



limba said:


> Mr Sonnen said it.
> 
> I think it's impossible to name the best HW in teh world until all of them face each other.
> But if i would have to rank them:
> ...


Look above for why Cain isn't number 1. Overeem, you can't be serious. The guys only win over a ranked fighter is over Brett "I should still be selling tires" Rogers. He's lost to Werdum already. The list should be

1 Brock
2 JDS
3 Cain
4 Werdum
5 Fedor
6 Carwin
7 Mir
8 NOG
9 Overeem
10 Silva (just because there's no one else to put here)


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*10 Silva (just because there's no one else to put here)*

Put Jeff Monson there instead!


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

Your right urban if they were official rankings Brock would be #1 however I feel carwin is better so the list I gave is just my personal feelings. 

No Brock hate from me. I use to hate him alot but truly hats of to him. he is the baddest man on the planet and I belive he will beat Cain then jds or big country but wont beat carwin next time.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Cain has one win over a top opponent. Why is he over Brock who has 3 wins over ranked opponents?


I am not going after any kind of Rankings or fights Rocky. I am judging my list by the fact that I believe, that both Cain and JDS would beat Lesnar and Carwin right now.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

kantowrestler said:


> Put Jeff Monson there instead!


You would rank Monson above Antonio Bigfoot Silva? 

Wow Monson has lost 3 of his last 5. Bigfoot has won 7 of his last 8.


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## QuickJack (Jul 5, 2010)

I really want to see Overeem higher up in these rankings, and Werdum for that matter. But right now, gotta give it up to Lesnar and Carwin. 

Lesnar
Carwin
Overeem
Werdum


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> I am not going after any kind of Rankings or fights Rocky. I am judging my list by the fact that I believe, that both Cain and JDS would beat Lesnar and Carwin right now.


So it's completely subjective, or put in another way which ever fighter you like more. Cain's striking isn't great. Lesnar is a bigger, faster, and better wrestler. JDS has never fought a good wrestler, so I don't know what you are basing it on. That being said rankings aren't made by hypothetical fights. They are earned by winning against top competition.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

This situation is a lot like the WW division when GSP lost to Serra, where GSP wasn't ranked #1, but he was still the best in the division, clearly.

#1 ranked heavyweight on paper - After Fedor's loss, it can be thrown in the air between Brock (he looked bad against Carwin, but we're talking on paper, and he did get the W), JDS, Cain.

The best HW fighter in the world - Fedor.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> So it's completely subjective, or put in another way which ever fighter you like more. Cain's striking isn't great. Lesnar is a bigger, faster, and better wrestler. JDS has never fought a good wrestler, so I don't know what you are basing it on. That being said rankings aren't made by hypothetical fights. They are earned by winning against top competition.


Exactly! And I believe Cain and JDS could beat Lesnar right now. It's impossible to rank this HW devision right now. Everybody who does it, is judging the list after his personal feelings and who he think would win the fights. Thats what I did!

I believe Cain will beat Brock, JDS and Carwin right now. I also believe Overeem would beat JDS, Brock and Carwin right now. It's all feelings and how they match up with each other. What then actually happens.. who knows! But so far, none of the top HW's have fought each other except Brock and Carwin. So right now Brock is above Carwin in the rankings. Thats about all we know right now..


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Rank this HW devision*

Well that's why Brock and Cain are going against each other soon!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Well that's why Brock and Cain are going against each other soon!


No they're not.



BobbyCooper said:


> Exactly! And I believe Cain and JDS could beat Lesnar right now. It's impossible to rank this HW devision right now. Everybody who does it, is judging the list after his personal feelings and who he think would win the fights. Thats what I did!
> 
> I believe Cain will beat Brock, JDS and Carwin right now. I also believe Overeem would beat JDS, Brock and Carwin right now. It's all feelings and how they match up with each other. What then actually happens.. who knows! But so far, none of the top HW's have fought each other except Brock and Carwin. So right now Brock is above Carwin in the rankings. Thats about all we know right now..


No we know Brock is #1 because he's earned it. The other guys haven't fought each other, so they haven't earned it. Your the only one who does rankings that way. Why because that way you can continue to down Brock without facing any facts. I believe he can beat him so he's higher isn't a ranking system. If I thought Jon Jones could beat Shogun should I rank him ahead of Shogun? Of course not, he hasn't earned it.

By the way you're wrong. Cain has nothing that Brock can't handle. Cain's striking isn't an amazing striker. His wrestling isn't better than Brock's. He's slower and not as strong. Why exactly will Cain win. JDS has never fought a good wrestler, let alone a great one. He gets GNP'd too.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Jds*

Yeah his test of Roy Nelson will show us how he can handle a wrestler!


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah his test of Roy Nelson will show us how he can handle a wrestler!


i don't think Roy's wrestling ability is comparable to Brock or Cain. However if he can't handle Roy, then he can't handle Brock/Cain.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> No we know Brock is #1 because he's earned it. The other guys haven't fought each other, so they haven't earned it. Your the only one who does rankings that way. Why because that way you can continue to down Brock without facing any facts. I believe he can beat him so he's higher isn't a ranking system. If I thought Jon Jones could beat Shogun should I rank him ahead of Shogun? Of course not, he hasn't earned it.
> 
> By the way you're wrong. Cain has nothing that Brock can't handle. Cain's striking isn't an amazing striker. His wrestling isn't better than Brock's. He's slower and not as strong. Why exactly will Cain win. JDS has never fought a good wrestler, let alone a great one. He gets GNP'd too.


Of course did Brock earned it right now! You can't put anybody else as the number 1 HW spot then Brock. He's the champ and just won a title fight against the number 1 contender. Of course he is the number one for now. My list had nothing to do with that at all. It wasn't a accurate Rankings list. My list was my personal feelings on who I think would be the number 1 HW if all of them had fought each other. Simple isn't?? 
I believe Cain is the best HW in the World right now! Because of the reasons I mentioned earlier. Can Cain be the number 1 HW in the World right now on a Rankings System? Of course not.. How?? It's impossible to do! I know how Rankings work rokky, you don't need to tell me that.

And for Cain losing to Brock. I disagree with about everythig you just said. How do you know that Cain isn't as fast as Brock?? For me they are about equal. Plus Cains striking is lightyears ahead of Brocks.. this isn't even debatable! If Brocks has to stand with Cain, cause he can't take him down (wich I aspect to happen) he will lose via KnockOut! Cains Wrestling is way better then Carwins and I rank it even higher then Brocks. So if Carwin had zero Problems defending Brocks Takedowns, I don't see how Cain shouldn't be able to do the same. Plus Cain is much better at BJJ then Brock. So Brock for me is outclassed everywhere here.. except Size. And 15 lbs won't make much of a difference here! Oh and yes, for me Cain is pretty strong!


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> And for Cain losing to Brock. I disagree with about everythig you just said. How do you know that Cain isn't as fast as Brock?? For me they are about equal. Plus Cains striking is lightyears ahead of Brocks.. this isn't even debatable! If Brocks has to stand with Cain, cause he can't take him down (wich I aspect to happen) he will lose via KnockOut! Cains Wrestling is way better then Carwins and I rank it even higher then Brocks. So if Carwin had zero Problems defending Brocks Takedowns, I don't see how Cain shouldn't be able to do the same. Plus Cain is much better at BJJ then Brock. So Brock for me is outclassed everywhere here.. except Size. And 15 lbs won't make much of a difference here! Oh and yes, for me Cain is pretty strong!


15lbs? Cain weighs in about 240-245ish (no weight cut), Lesnar weighs in at 265 and cuts from about 285 to get there. Come fight night there will be about a 45lb weight advantage for Lesnar and a a substantial strength advantage that comes with it.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Toxic said:


> 15lbs? Cain weighs in about 240-245ish (no weight cut), Lesnar weighs in at 265 and cuts from about 285 to get there. Come fight night there will be about a 45lb weight advantage for Lesnar and a a substantial strength advantage that comes with it.


No Lesnar doesn't cut anymore from 285. He doesn't cut any weight at all. He stays at 265 and just skips one meal on weigh in night. And yes Cain is around 245. So ok he has a 20lbs weight advantage.. thats it!

Cains Wrestling technic makes up for the 20lbs here!


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> No Lesnar doesn't cut anymore from 285. He doesn't cut any weight at all. He stays at 265 and just skips one meal on weigh in night. And yes Cain is around 245. So ok he has a 20lbs weight advantage.. thats it!
> 
> Cains Wrestling technic makes up for the 20lbs here!


Would love to see your source for this. There is no way Brock walks around at 265~

Guess we have to wait and see, but Im calling a G&P win to Brock on 2nd. Cain is excellent wrestler, but no way he'll be subbing Brock from the bottom, or getting up once he gets taken down. I admit he mighe be able to prevent a takedown or 2, but eventually he'll end up on his back with no way to get back up. 
Go check out Cain vs. Kongo fight. I admit its not his best one as its the only one he hasn't stopped his opponent at, but if you pay attention to wrestling in that fight does it really make you confortable that he'll be able to outwrestle Brock too while being in 30-40 pound disadvantage?


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Diokhan said:


> Would love to see your source for this. There is no way Brock walks around at 265~
> 
> Guess we have to wait and see, but Im calling a G&P win to Brock on 2nd. Cain is excellent wrestler, but no way he'll be subbing Brock from the bottom, or getting up once he gets taken down. I admit he mighe be able to prevent a takedown or 2, but eventually he'll end up on his back with no way to get back up.
> Go check out Cain vs. Kongo fight. I admit its not his best one as its the only one he hasn't stopped his opponent at, but if you pay attention to wrestling in that fight does it really make you confortable that he'll be able to outwrestle Brock too while being in 30-40 pound disadvantage?


There is no 30-40 pound disadvanatage anymore! Brock stated, after his illness on the Press Conference, that he doesn't need to cut any weight anymore just one meal on weigh in time. And he likes it a lot! Just watch the pre fight press conference. 

I believe Cain is the better Wrestler!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Better Wrestler*

Yeah but can that counter Brock's size advantage?


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> There is no 30-40 pound disadvanatage anymore! Brock stated, after his illness on the Press Conference, that he doesn't need to cut any weight anymore just one meal on weigh in time. And he likes it a lot! Just watch the pre fight press conference.
> 
> I believe Cain is the better Wrestler!


That is 265 of solid muscle Cain is what like 245 with a lot higher body fat percentage. Lesnar is definitely stronger but I just don't think it matters because Cain is better everywhere.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Better everywhere*

How is he better than the striking?


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> There is no 30-40 pound disadvanatage anymore! Brock stated, after his illness on the Press Conference, that he doesn't need to cut any weight anymore just one meal on weigh in time. And he likes it a lot! Just watch the pre fight press conference.
> 
> I believe Cain is the better Wrestler!


You believe wrong. Cain was 88-19 as division 1 wrestler. Never placing higher than 4th.

http://www.pac-10.org/sports/m-wrestl/recaps/031806aae.html

Brock was 106-5. He was 2nd his junior year and won it his senior year. Brock is a bigger, faster, stronger, and better wrestler.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Better Wrestler*

Yeah I don't think Cain has wrestling to his advantage!


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> You believe wrong. Cain was 88-19 as division 1 wrestler. Never placing higher than 4th.
> 
> http://www.pac-10.org/sports/m-wrestl/recaps/031806aae.html
> 
> Brock was 106-5. He was 2nd his junior year and won it his senior year. Brock is a bigger, faster, stronger, and better wrestler.


They didn't face the same people those records don't really mean anything.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Those records*

So are you saying the competition was higher for Cain then Brock or the same?


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

*...Why doens't the UFC & M-1 just grow a set of balls and come up with a 1 fight super mega-contract between Fedor & Brock at Madisen Square Garden for all the marbles. It would be the biggest MMA event in history and would rake in so much money, I'm sure both fighters would get over a million each. That will settle all disputes and would make history like no other... *


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Biggest MMA event*

Yeah except Fedor has lost alot of value that he used to have and the UFC has even less reason to copromote!


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah except Fedor has lost alot of value that he used to have and the UFC has even less reason to copromote!


...I respectfully disagree. Fedor has lost lots of value? No quite. His first loss in 10 years in 1 minute 9 seconds means everything? You don't think the MMA world is curious to see how Fedor comes back from a cheap loss like that? I'd bet you my nads that EVERYONE will watch Fedor's return in the fall, including you. You think Dana wouldn't put Brock in with Fedor if the money was stacked to the moon? Money talks...BS walks...


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

BrutalKO said:


> *...Why doens't the UFC & M-1 just grow a set of balls and come up with a 1 fight super mega-contract between Fedor & Brock at Madisen Square Garden for all the marbles. It would be the biggest MMA event in history and would rake in so much money, I'm sure both fighters would get over a million each. That will settle all disputes and would make history like no other... *


First of all mma isn't legal in New York. Secondly why would the UFC validate M1 global. Currently Fedor is really the only guy that is able to get a huge following out of mma. I'm not saying that no one else is any good. What I'm saying is that the UFC has done the marketing to make themselves the "only game around". So why start a precedent that will let other companies in the door? Secondly why does Fedor deserve a shot? Name one other instance where a guy coming off a loss deserves a title shot that isn't a rematch.



osmium said:


> They didn't face the same people those records don't really mean anything.


Are you trying to say Wes Hand wasn't any good?


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Money talks*

Well how he rebounds from this will definately add value but like Gomi if he ever goes to the UFC I don't think he'll get an automatic title shot!


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Are you trying to say Wes Hand wasn't any good?


I'm saying competition level isn't a static thing. Cain competed several years after Brock against superior athletes overall. Saying Brock went against one guy that was really good is meaningless when you are talking about over a hundred matches both ways.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

osmium said:


> I'm saying competition level isn't a static thing. Cain competed several years after Brock against superior athletes overall. Saying Brock went against one guy that was really good is meaningless when you are talking about over a hundred matches both ways.


What athletes did Cain face that were better than the ones Brock faced?


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## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

BrutalKO said:


> *...Why doens't the UFC & M-1 just grow a set of balls and come up with a 1 fight super mega-contract between Fedor & Brock at Madisen Square Garden for all the marbles. It would be the biggest MMA event in history and would rake in so much money, I'm sure both fighters would get over a million each. That will settle all disputes and would make history like no other... *


_New York Athletic Commission_ won't let them. Dana has been fighting to get into New York for about a year now, and it's been thrown to the wayside recently.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

I still say carwin is the best he just screwed up in his fight agains Brock he will ko his next opponent or two get another shot and become champ.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

Firstly i will never get my head around why some people point to Brock's fight with Carwin, were he far from dominated yet still got the win in impressive fashion, as a means to suggest that he is not the number one Heavyweight in the world. However, Fedor had plenty of fights where he was far from dominant (Arlovski and Randleman of the top of my head) and this triumph over adversity was utilised as actual PROOF that he was the number one. Double standards?

Brock is the number one Heavyweight in the world right now - he has proven himself to be. Rankings are not about personal preference, nor are they about potential. They are about who has the most relevant top quality recent wins...

Brock Lesnar. Like it or not. He is number one. And i suspect he will be for quite a while, as Carwin was more dangerous to him than Cain or JDS will be, and he came through brilliantly.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Dream-On-101 said:


> Firstly i will never get my head around why some people point to Brock's fight with Carwin, were he far from dominated yet still got the win in impressive fashion, as a means to suggest that he is not the number one Heavyweight in the world. However, Fedor had plenty of fights where he was far from dominant (Arlovski and Randleman of the top of my head) and this triumph over adversity was utilised as actual PROOF that he was the number one. Double standards?
> 
> Brock is the number one Heavyweight in the world right now - he has proven himself to be. Rankings are not about personal preference, nor are they about potential. They are about who has the most relevant top quality recent wins...
> 
> Brock Lesnar. Like it or not. He is number one. And i suspect he will be for quite a while, as Carwin was more dangerous to him than Cain or JDS will be, and he came through brilliantly.


Conversely, for this very same reason, Fedor should be nowhere near the HW top ten list. This guy has made a career out of avoiding relevant fights, and still managed to lose one. An objective top ten list would have Lesnar, Carwin, Valasquez and dos Santos at the very top, and Werdum and Fedor would not be on it at all. Let them earn their way on it like everyone else.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Calminian said:


> Conversely, for this very same reason, Fedor should be nowhere near the HW top ten list. *This guy has made a career out of avoiding relevant fights, *and still managed to lose one. An objective top ten list would have Lesnar, *Carwin, Valasquez *and dos Santos at the very top, and* Werdum and Fedor *would not be on it at all. Let them earn their way on it like everyone else.


Werdum and JDS have probably the most well rounded resumes. Werdum has wins over Fedor, Antonio Silva, Vera, Gonzaga (2x), and Overeem. His three loses are to Nogs in his prime, Arlovski, and JDS. To take Werdum out of the top ten...or even the top five is insane. Valasquez has eight fights with wins over Kongo, Rothwell and an over the hill Nogs. Valasquez has not beaten a current top ten fighter yet people who put him at #2 or favor him over Brock not only do a disservice to the HW division but to Valasquez.

I think you should try and put together a top ten list and actually see who's in it and who isn't. That might help you get perspective, it did with me and I'm sure it does with others.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

John8204 said:


> Werdum and JDS have probably the most well rounded resumes.


:laugh:

Oh, wait you were actually serious. Okay, let's break this down.




John8204 said:


> Werdum has wins over Fedor,


the irrelevant joke that's been avoiding the best fighters for a few years.



John8204 said:


> Antonio Silva,


Who?



John8204 said:


> Vera,


So now beating Vera, a natural LHW makes you a relevant HW? There's a reason Dana insisted he move down in weight.



John8204 said:


> Gonzaga (2x),


And we know how many relevant guys GG has beat'n. 



John8204 said:


> and Overeem.


Er, wasn't that the same old skinny Overeem that even Liddell beat? 



John8204 said:


> His three loses are to Nogs in his prime, Arlovski,.....


He lost to AA. Case closed. He's a good fighter, but not good enough for the UFC. Thus not good enough to be in any top ten list. The only reason you're building him up is because he beat Fedor, the most overrated fighter in all mma history. Fedor fans will never accept Fedor losing to a sub-top-ten guy.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Okay....post your top ten if Werdum, Fedor, Silva, and Overeem aren't in it I'd love to see who is.

P.S. I'm not a Fedor fan in any way shape or form, but I'm not crazy enough to not put him in a top ten or top five.


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## sNatch204 (Oct 13, 2006)

I dont understand why the UFC puts Cain so high up. Yes hes nuts, yes hes a beast, but i still have JDS higher in the rankings than him, and i think JDS has beaten better fighters, in a more dominant fashion. JDS is even ahead of Carwin imo. I even think he should of gotten a title shot before Carwin, and should be getting one before Cain.

3 best HW's in the world right now imo are Brock Lesnar, Junior Dos Santos, and Allistair Overeem. Guys right behind them are guys like Fedor, Carwin, Cain, Mir. I personally dont think Werdum is special. Hes a moster on the ground, but he lost the fight to Big Foot in my eyes, and Fedor gave him the free submission. I think he would get dominated in the UFC.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

sNatch204 said:


> I dont understand why the UFC puts Cain so high up. Yes hes nuts, yes hes a beast, but i still have JDS higher in the rankings than him, and i think JDS has beaten better fighters, in a more dominant fashion. JDS is even ahead of Carwin imo. I even think he should of gotten a title shot before Carwin, and should be getting one before Cain.
> 
> 3 best HW's in the world right now imo are Brock Lesnar, Junior Dos Santos, and Allistair Overeem. Guys right behind them are guys like Fedor, Carwin, Cain, Mir. I personally dont think Werdum is special. Hes a moster on the ground, but he lost the fight to Big Foot in my eyes, and Fedor gave him the free submission. I think he would get dominated in the UFC.


How is alistair, a guy who has never beaten a good HW, top 3?


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Conversely, for this very same reason, Fedor should be nowhere near the HW top ten list. This guy has made a career out of avoiding relevant fights, and still managed to lose one. An objective top ten list would have Lesnar, Carwin, Valasquez and dos Santos at the very top, and Werdum and Fedor would not be on it at all. Let them earn their way on it like everyone else.



I actually agree. The problem lies within the fact that outside of the top 4/5 in the UFC and maybe Overreem, the Heayweight division is still lacking any real depth. Werdum and Fedor probably shouldnt be in the top 10 if the HW's were as deep as say the Light Heavies, but it isnt. 

You have the top 6 - Brock, Cain, Carwin, JDS, Mir, Overreem (the order of which is debatable) but then you have a whole lot of guys who havent done much of anything recently. Werdum beat Fedor, but dont forget he got wrecked by JDS. Fedor really hasnt fought anyone relevant since Arlovski (and even that one is highly open to criticism). Then you have a hoard of guys like Kongo, Rothwell, Gonzaga, Duffee, Big Foot, Barnett etc etc.

Basically, in my opinion you have the top 5 or 6, which is open to debate. Then you have the rest, of whom it is difficult to put into any kind of reasonable order with certainty. Fedor and Werdum both fall into this catagory. 


My personal top 6 is this:

1- Brock Lesnar
2- Shane Carwin
3- Cain Velasquez
4- Junior Dos Santos
5- Frank Mir
6- Alistair Overreem (and i still want to see a top 10 win)

Then it is just 'the rest'.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Dream-On-101 said:


> I actually agree. The problem lies within the fact that outside of the top 4/5 in the UFC and maybe Overreem, the Heayweight division is still lacking any real depth. Werdum and Fedor probably shouldnt be in the top 10 if the HW's were as deep as say the Light Heavies, but it isnt.
> 
> You have the top 6 - Brock, Cain, Carwin, JDS, Mir, Overreem (the order of which is debatable) but then you have a whole lot of guys who havent done much of anything recently. Werdum beat Fedor, but dont forget he got wrecked by JDS. Fedor really hasnt fought anyone relevant since Arlovski (and even that one is highly open to criticism). Then you have a hoard of guys like Kongo, Rothwell, Gonzaga, Duffee, Big Foot, Barnett etc etc.
> 
> ...


Carwin just lost so I don't think he' #2. Also I think you have to have Werdum ahead of Overeem, since he beat him, Fedor, and Silva.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Dream-On-101 said:


> I actually agree. The problem lies within the fact that outside of the top 4/5 in the UFC and maybe Overreem, the Heayweight division is still lacking any real depth. Werdum and Fedor probably shouldnt be in the top 10 if the HW's were as deep as say the Light Heavies, but it isnt.
> 
> You have the top 6 - Brock, Cain, Carwin, JDS, Mir, Overreem (the order of which is debatable) but then you have a whole lot of guys who havent done much of anything recently. Werdum beat Fedor, but dont forget he got wrecked by JDS. Fedor really hasnt fought anyone relevant since Arlovski (and even that one is highly open to criticism). Then you have a hoard of guys like Kongo, Rothwell, Gonzaga, Duffee, Big Foot, Barnett etc etc.
> 
> ...


I suppose you got me backed into a corner. The problem is, fighters evolve, and in a span of 5 years some evolve quickly past others. I would actually pick Nog over Fedor in a rematch. He's fought much better competition. I'd also pick Overeem over Werdum considering recent relevant fights. But none of those will ever take down the top 4 (the only possible question mark being JDS).


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

I just read this whole thread lol

Glad i havent responded in this thread o_0
I would have got another warning...


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## LiteGladiator (Jun 22, 2010)

1 - Brock Lesnar
2 - Cain Velasquez
3 - Shane Carwin
4 - JDS
5 - Frank Mir

Top 5 right there. It is debatable putting Carwin at 2nd, we will see how Cain does against Brock.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

LiteGladiator said:


> 1 - Brock Lesnar
> 2 - Cain Velasquez
> 3 - Shane Carwin
> 4 - JDS
> ...


I think JDS should be above Carwin. Losing drops you down in the ranks. If you are ranking UFC HWs then you are right. If not then you have to have Werdum above Mir and Carwin.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I don't think Werdum is ahead of Carwin!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> I don't think Werdum is ahead of Carwin!


He just beat Fedor who was ranked #1. Carwin just lost. I don't see how you can rank Carwin ahead of Werdum.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok but I still don't think that Werdum earned the number two spot in the world!


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## LiteGladiator (Jun 22, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Ok but I still don't think that Werdum earned the number two spot in the world!


Wedum is in strikeforce, he beat Fedor. BUT Fedor should have never been in #1 IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! He is not nearly the best anymore. Shane lost to the #1 guy, so I don't see how he is gonna be ranked lower than #2 unless Cain does better than Carwin did against Lesnar. You should not be bumped down in the ranks if you are the #2 and you lose to the #1, it doesn't make sense.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah but how does beating Fedor put Werdum in the two spot I once again ask?


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## LiteGladiator (Jun 22, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah but how does beating Fedor put Werdum in the two spot I once again ask?


It shouldn't.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah it should put him in the top ten but not number two!


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## LiteGladiator (Jun 22, 2010)

He shouldn't be ranked above JDS, that fight was pretty decisive...


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

That kind've comparison is like saying Jardine should be ranked ahead of Forrest Grifffin!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

First of all I never said Werdum should be #2. I think he should be ahead of Carwin, who I rank 5th or 6th. Right or wrong Fedor was the #1 HW in the world and Werdum beat him. Werdum also has wins over Antonio Silva, Overeem, and Gonzaga. Who has Carwin beat Gonzaga and Mir? He lost that drops him below an undefeated Cain Velasquez and JDS who is on a 5 fight win strak and has beaten Werdum, Gonzaga, and Cro Cop. Look you lose you drop that's just the way it is. Carwin is still a top 10 HW, but he has to win again to jump ahead of guys who are winning and not losing.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah and Cain has beat Nogueira, Rothwell and Kongo, the only ranked guy he has beat is Nogueira!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah and Cain has beat Nogueira, Rothwell and Kongo, the only ranked guy he has beat is Nogueira!


The only ranked guy Carwin beat was Mir. Who has Cain lost to? Oh that's right, no one. If Cain loses to Lesnar than you have to reevaluate, but right now you have to rank him ahead of Carwin.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I wasn't arguing that he shouldn't be ahead of Carwin, but I don't think he should be ahead of Fedor, which he isn't but his place is still a little high in my opinion!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> I wasn't arguing that he shouldn't be ahead of Carwin, but I don't think he should be ahead of Fedor, which he isn't but his place is still a little high in my opinion!


You don't have a problem with Velasquez ahead of Carwin, but you don't think he should be ahead of Fedor. You don't think Werdum should be ahead of Carwin. The only way that is possible is if you rank Fedor higher than Werdum, who just beat him.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok, I don't think Werdum should be number two, that is pretty simple!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Ok, I don't think Werdum should be number two, that is pretty simple!


But you have no idea where anyone else should be ranked?


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Rogers should be dropped from the top 10 like a bad habit, Brock should be where he is, Werdum should be in the top 5 but not number two, Fedor should be around the same area but not above Werdum, Cain should be number 2, JDS should be above Werdum, Carwin should be around the same area, Big Nog and Mir should be around the same area they are at, Overeem should be 9, and Big Country should be ranked!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Rogers should be dropped from the top 10 like a bad habit, Brock should be where he is, Werdum should be in the top 5 but not number two, Fedor should be around the same area but not above Werdum, Cain should be number 2, JDS should be above Werdum, Carwin should be around the same area, Big Nog and Mir should be around the same area they are at, Overeem should be 9, and Big Country should be ranked!


But you said Cain shouldn't be ahead of Fedor.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

That was a mistake my bad, that's how it should be, I typed before I thought things through!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> That was a mistake my bad, that's how it should be, I typed before I thought things through!


Let's trying thinking first next time.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok is my clear thought top 10 more logical than MMA Weekly's and Sherdog's rankings?


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> ...Right or wrong Fedor was the #1 HW in the world and Werdum beat him. W....


Right or wrong?? That's what the entire discussion is all about, whether Sherdog should be paid any attention to. For me, protecting Fedor for so many years has lost them all credibility. Carwin would absolutely destroy Werdum. Does anyone really doubt that? Does anyone doubt dos Santos would crumble Werdum in a second meeting? Does anyone doubt Valaquez would wreck him? Fedor was a fantasy kept alive by nostalgic fans and organizations. MMA is constantly evolving, and sherdog couldn't let Fedor drop from his natural place. Then along comes the mediocre Werdum who "shocks" the mma world. Now there's mass confusion for ranking organizations. But only because they started out confused.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Brock Is The Best So Stfu!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

What is Stfu supposed to mean?


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Machida Karate said:


> Brock Is The Best So Stfu!


I agree with you, but the way you presented your argument is that of a small child.



kantowrestler said:


> What is Stfu supposed to mean?


Google it. Google is a search engine by the way.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok I got the answer and I know what google is, do you know what bing is?


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## FrodoFraggins (Oct 25, 2009)

My Politically Incorrect top 10 - based on how I think their skills rate against each other NOW. None of that politically correct BS. And yes, it's all speculation.

1. Lesnar
2. Carwin
3. JDS
4. Velasquez
5. Fedor
6. Mir
7. Overeem
8. Werdum
9. Silva
10. Barnett maybe


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Big Nog should be on and Bigfoot should be off!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Big Nog should be on and Bigfoot should be off!


No Big Nog should be on and Barnett should be left off.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I don't think Bigfoot should be on period!


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## LiteGladiator (Jun 22, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> I don't think Bigfoot should be on period!


Yeah, who has bigfoot beat? Arlovski? He lost to Sylvia TWICE! Cabbage? He lost to Arlovski! Justin Eilers? He lost to Arlovski! Ricco Rodruigez? He lost to Tim Sylvia? I don't think that this puts him in the top 10.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

LiteGladiator said:


> Yeah, who has bigfoot beat? Arlovski? He lost to Sylvia TWICE! Cabbage? He lost to Arlovski! Justin Eilers? He lost to Arlovski! Ricco Rodruigez? He lost to Tim Sylvia? I don't think that this puts him in the top 10.



That 10 spot is a tough one. No one really deserves it. You've got Barnett, who can't win without juicing. There's Bigfoot, who doesn't have a lot of quality wins, but has a descent record. Roy Nelson, who's never beaten a ranked HW. Out of those three I say Bigfoot gets it.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

The HW rankings are so fcuked up, but thats what happens when the biggest MMA promotion gives title shots to people who dont deserve them, the belts should define the best fighter but unfortunately they dont.

I would list the top 10 as follows, based on nothing other than my personal opinion.

JDS
Overeem
Fedor
Cain
Brock
Barnett
Carwin
Duffee
Rogers
Mir


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> The HW rankings are so fcuked up, but thats what happens when the biggest MMA promotion gives title shots to people who dont deserve them, the belts should define the best fighter but unfortunately they dont.
> 
> I would list the top 10 as follows, based on nothing other than my personal opinion.
> 
> ...


Who got a title shot that didn't deserve one?


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Who got a title shot that didn't deserve one?


Brock


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> Brock


When Brock got the shot who should have gotten it instead?


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> When Brock got the shot who should have gotten it instead?


Carwin, JDS or Cain, and until Brock has beaten all 3 of those fighters his status as champion is a fraud.

Edit: I will point out that my respect for the UFC HW division is on the lift by the fact that they are at least on track to correcting the mistake they made when they gifted the title to Brock, and after the next 2 HW title fights it looks like we will at least have a deserved HW champion, assuming the after Cain/Brock that the winner of JDS/Nelson gets the shot, the only way the UFC can **** this up after been so close to putting this right is if an unexpected rubber match comes up like say Mir beats Nog and gets a shot before the winner of JDS/Nelson or if Cain beats Brock and Brock gets a instant rematch. But I dont thinik they will fcuk it up I think they will get it right this time and bring credit back to there HW belt no matter who emerges the champ in 2 title fights time


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> Carwin, JDS or Cain, and until Brock has beaten all 3 of those fighters his status as champion is a fraud.


When Brock got his title shot Cain was fresh off his 1st UFC win against the legendary Jake Obrien.

Carwin had two amazing UFC wins against Wellisch and Wain.

JDS hadn't even been in the UFC for a month when Brock won.

I don't see how they deserved the title shot.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> When Brock got his title shot Cain was fresh off his 1st UFC win against the legendary Jake Obrien.
> 
> Carwin had two amazing UFC wins against Wellisch and Wain.
> 
> ...


And all had better MMA records still than Brock both in the UFC and before, Brock should of been made to work the ranks like the other have been made to do and to be honest since near any true HW in the UFC could of took that belt from Couture, Couture should have retired from the HW division and stepped down as champ and some kind of Grad Prix should of been set up to create a new HW champion, but no Brock is gifted the title based on nothing other than his fame as a WWE star.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> And all had better MMA records still than Brock both in the UFC and before, Brock should of been made to work the ranks like the other have been made to do and to be honest since near any true HW in the UFC could of took that belt from Couture, Couture should have retired from the HW division and stepped down as champ and some kind of Grad Prix should of been set up to create a new HW champion, but no Brock is gifted the title based on nothing other than his fame as a WWE star.


He had just beaten Heath Herring who was better than any of the others had beaten at this point. If they had a Grand Prix who would be in it?

Couture had already beaten Sylvia and Gonzaga. Arlovski was already gone. Mir and Nog were already in the HW tournament. Lesnar proved himself by beating both Couture and the winner of Mir/Nog. No one else had proven themselves.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well now Brock has to prove himself by beating all the other rising stars of the heavyweight division!


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## LiteGladiator (Jun 22, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Well now Brock has to prove himself by beating all the other rising stars of the heavyweight division!


Yeah, Brock has to prove and re-prove against the Velasquez and JDS, then he will be totally undisputed.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah Cain will be a challenge for him but JDS depends on his ground game!


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## LiteGladiator (Jun 22, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah Cain will be a challenge for him but JDS depends on his ground game!


He is probably like a 240 BJ Penn off of his back to compliment his Anderson Silva striking ability.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

LiteGladiator said:


> He is probably like a 240 BJ Penn off of his back to compliment his Anderson Silva striking ability.


I don't think that JDS is on Silva's level.


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## LiteGladiator (Jun 22, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I don't think that JDS is on Silva's level.


Okay, that was a bit on an exaggeration, by that I meant that he was unparalleled in his division, which I believe is true


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Except maybe Kongo, but he has no ground game!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Except maybe Kongo, but he has no ground game!


I don't think Kongo is even close to JDS' striking. Overeem and Khartinov are the two other elite strikers that remain in mma that can rival JDS.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

And of course Overeem and Khartinov are in Strikeforce!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> And of course Overeem and Khartinov are in Strikeforce!


Thank you Captain Obvious.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

The point is that the two guys who could test Brock's copping to a true kickboxer aren't in the UFC!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> The point is that the two guys who could test Brock's copping to a true kickboxer aren't in the UFC!


But they are also the two that are the most vulnerable to his wrestling.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah they have both been taken down before!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah they have both been taken down before!


And they neither one have good ground game.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, not sure why cause Golden Glory is a good gym and most Russians know *****!:confused02:


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