# Sherdog's top 10 Pound for Pound rankings.... WTF?



## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

> 1. Georges St. Pierre (22-2)
> Georges St. Pierre has been cleaning out the elites of the welterweight division with startling, unprecedented efficiency. Over the last four years, St. Pierre has dominated the most impressive schedule of opponents in MMA, making other pound-for-pounders look ordinary. However, as a result of his dominance as well his style, constantly critiqued for its conservatism, onlookers demanded a new-look opponent for GSP. Dana White complied with fans' wishes, signing former Strikeforce champ Nick Diaz to a new UFC contract, paving the way for a major St. Pierre-Diaz showdown at UFC 137 on Oct. 29.
> 
> 2. Anderson Silva (30-4)
> ...



GSP no1??? how on earth can anyone rank him no1? his record doesnt even compare to Anderson's in the slightest, anderson is 13-0 in the UFC and finished 11 of them, 9-0 in title fights(should be 10-0 if you include lutter), fought at 2 weight classes, has every record in the book, 90% of his fights are sensational to watch etc etc. theres nothing GSP has on anderson.

Fitch above Jones? Jones has mauled everyone he has fought, Fitch eeks out decisions fight after fight.

Shogun? i mean i love shogun but 1 good win over machida doesnt make you top 10 p4p, especially when your 1-2 in you last 3.

Edgar no4, but no Maynard? doesnt make any sense.

I havnt a clue how Sherdog comes up with there rankings, they are just silly.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Christ...

http://www.mmafighting.com/2011/07/07/backstage-with-chael-sonnen/

From 13 minutes onward....


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

they state that GSP is up higher because of the bigger names of opponents he has faced.

if thats the case then Frankie needs to be above jose aldo. Bj penn is better than anyone jose has fought. Not to mention gray, jim miller, bocek, sherk.


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## JoshKnows46 (Jun 18, 2007)

My P4p Rankings : just based on watching fighters skills

1.) Anderson silva (needs no explanation, no one's close)

2.) Jose aldo (best head movement in the game, hands down)

3.) Jon Jones (never been in a hint of trouble, best wrestlin in his division, best striking, champion at only 23 after only training mma 3 years.)

4.) GSP (doesn't finish fights drops him in my rankings, that shows lack of skill in bjj and striking as far as i'm concerned, but you can't deny his wrestling and how effecient he uses it to take the fight were he wants.)

5.) Nick Diaz ( best boxing, cardio, and bjj in his division IMO, he only has one hole, and that is his wrestling, but overall i consider him one of the p4p most skilled fighters.

6.) Frankie Edgar 

7.) Junior Dos Santos

8.) Cain Velasquez

9.) BJ Penn

10.) Melvin Guillard (best striking in division, best take down defense/wrestling as well imo, i see him being the chuck liddel of his division for a while)


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## Bebop (Aug 15, 2006)

JoshKnows46 said:


> My P4p Rankings : just based on watching fighters skills
> 
> 1.) Anderson silva (needs no explanation, no one's close)
> 
> ...



I can see an argument for it. GSP hasn't had any real lackluster opponents, that alone should be taken in to consideration. 

However, it's all lost on me after watching that Chael interview. That guy is amazing! Best personality in MMA by far! War Sonnen!


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

just had to post in this thread to show off my nifty new chael sig.

I'm a Marvel man myself. I think spider-man could beat them both.:thumb02:


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## JoshKnows46 (Jun 18, 2007)

Bebop said:


> I can see an argument for it. GSP hasn't had any real lackluster opponents, that alone should be taken in to consideration.
> 
> However, it's all lost on my after watching that Chael interview. That guy is amazing! Best personality in MMA by far! War Sonnen!


but he desides where the fights take place, no reason he shouldn't have overwelmed shields in the striking more, shields has the worst striking in the division, no reason he shouldn't have finished dan hardy 5 rounds on the ground, he has some of the worst Jitz in the division, that to me shows lack of skill...he's fighting guys at there weakest area for 5 rounds and still not finishing. you can fight the best guys, but if your fighting them were they are weakest, and just getting desision after desision that shows you have major holes in ur game outside of wrestling.

fighters like diaz, carlos condit(only ones i can think of at the moment) that fight to other fighters strenghths and not their weaknesses, and still beat peoples ass, to me, shows more to their overall skill as a complete mixed martial artist. and when i think of pound 4 pound, i consider a fighters overall skills when i'm thinking of the best fighters. (thats why i'm real excited to see diaz (and possible condit) fight gsp, becuase their wouldn't be a safe route out of those fights, you'd really get to see how good or not good gsp is in the area he desides to take those fights, he'll have to actaully fight where ever the fight goes, becuase diaz has a very active guard, and condit will be landing elbow after elbow from the bottom.)


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

John Fitch! Jake Shields!! :confused05::confused03::sarcastic12:


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

I really don't see why making a p4p list is ridiculous. Putting any stock into something Chael Sonnen says on the other hand.....

In general I don't like Sherdog's rankings though. I wouldn't have Shogun on the list, and I agree that Edgar/Maynard are virtually inseparable on a list like this. However, I agree the GSP is number 1. He has fewer weaknesses and has dominated the strongest division in MMA. I haven't really enjoyed watching his last few fights, but that doesn't count for anything.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

My rankings

1. GSP - only man to clear out his top ten. I know the argument is that he's boring and safe he's fighting in a stacked division and he's going to clear out the WW top ten, no one has done it before and no one will do it again.

2. Anderson Silva - great finishes to dubious challengers. Maia and Marquardt were to soon, Belfort was to late, Sonnen was wrecking him and he hasn't fought Okami and you have five top ten guys in MW he needs to face.

3. Jon Jones - complete domination, has yet to have a bad minute in a fight. Before Jones' won the title 205 was the top division in MMA, now we're scrambling to find a challenger and coming up short.

4. Jose Aldo - falls a little bit after finishing his last fight on his back and being saved by the clock, he was very lucky a piss poor official didn't call the fight.

5. Dominic Cruz - I don't like the guy's future prospects but he has handled the top guys in the division and done so in a dominant fashion.

6. Frankie Edgar - falls from fourth to sixth with his draw and dominant performances from Jones/Aldo/Cruz the issue remains, hold long is Frankie going to hold the belt.

7. Jon Fitch - the toughest number two guy in the world, needs to get better fights but he stands on the shoulders of a number of top MMA guys. The only wish I have is that we could see him face those.

8. Gilbert Melendez - has become in my eyes the best fighter out of the UFC, not only that but with his next fight against Masvidal a convincing win and Edgar loss would make him the number 1 LW in the world.

9. Junior Dos Santos - The UFC's best kept secret JDS has quickly and quietly put together the most impressive resume in the HW division and is going into his title fight as a favorite.

10. Gray Maynard - still undefeated still fighting at the highest level this three way tug of war between Melendez/Edgar/Maynard is the most compelling race in MMA at the moment.

The rest of my rankings would go

(11. B.J. Penn, 12. Jake Shields, 13. Rashad Evans, 14. Cain Velasquez, 15. Nick Diaz, 16. Jim Miller, 17. Carlos Condit, 18. Rampage Jackson, 19. Yushin Okami, 20, Joseph Benavidez, 21. Lyoto Machida, 22. Chad Mendes, 23. Shogun Rua, 24. Hector Lombard 25. Dustin Poirer)


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Keep in mind it's "sherdog".

I was shocked Brock lesnar wasn't on their list xD


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

GSP no way on god's green earth should be number 1. To be p4p u gotta be dominate and not afraid to take risk. My list is:
1.silva 2.aldo 3.jones 4.GSP


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

my list why batman would best superma....er I mean p4p :thumb02:

1) Anderson Silva
2) GSP
3) Cain
4) BJ Penn (a true example of the meaning P4P)
5) JDS
6) JBJ (a bit early, but plenty of potential
7) Rashad
8) Frankie Edgar
9) Jose Aldo (also a bit early)
10) Lyoto Machida

Also I know the term P4P gets argued like there is no tomorrow, but the true meaning of pound 4 pound is "all things considered equal". In other words if lets say if Aldo fought Cain and they would be of close weight and size, from their skills alone who would win? Being p4p means you would be able to compete and maybe dominate in any division by skill alone if other measures such as height and weight did not apply.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

How the hell do you rank Jon Fitch over BJ Penn pound for pound when before BJ gassed he was beating Fitch and Fitch is a considerably larger guy.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Toxic said:


> How the hell do you rank Jon Fitch over BJ Penn pound for pound when before BJ gassed he was beating Fitch and Fitch is a considerably larger guy.


Cause he won one fight in two years.....and he gasses against smaller guys.


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## tigerblood (Mar 20, 2011)

P4p rankings are nothing more than opinion. Made up by bloggers, completely useless. null. Chael said it best.

Heres a list for you:

1. Cain Velasquez
2. Jon Jones
3. Anderson Silva
4. GSP
5. Frankie Edgar
6. Jose Aldo
7. Dominic Cruz


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Soakked said:


> my list why batman would best superma....er I mean p4p :thumb02:


He did, twice. :thumb02:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Basically all of the Sherdog guys are morons. One of them went insane over that ref separating Bowles and Mizugaki even though Bowles had stopped handfighting for 40 seconds and when he was warned to stay active he didn't move an inch and just stared at the ref for ten seconds. 

Fitch hasn't won a fight in 11 months, has never held a title, and is refusing to fight the toughest matchup for him in the division outside of GSP in Kos. There is no justification for him even being top 15 at this point. 

Frankie should be above Aldo they basically weigh the same and Frankie is fighting bigger and vastly superior competition. 

Jake Shields at 7 seriously can they suck the dicks of Caeser Gracie fighters any more(Gilbert over Cruz LOLZ). He has lost the actual fight his last two times out and only won rounds against GSP because he illegally blinded him with those open hand girl slaps he calls striking.

GSP above Andy is basically a joke. GSP has had the opportunity to fight Anderson and refused and he only weighs a couple pounds less than him. 

Anderson is the GOAT and in 35 years all of the great fighters will be measured against him while GSP is a footnote in the history of the sport. Who is going to be waxing poetic about a guy who dry humped or jabbed people for 5 rounds? GSP's performances have been mostly forgettable while Andy has been putting on ******* epic displays of dominance and heart. Ali isn't the GOAT of boxing because he had the highest win percentage it is because he did a lot of great and memorable things. Sherdog writers are that guy who argues for Marciano over Ali just for the purpose of being a contrarian douche.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

John8204 said:


> Cause he won one fight in two years.....and he gasses against smaller guys.


BJ made a career out of being the smaller guy. BJ has tested himself against bigger guys, how many others on that list can say the same? Haters gonna hate.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

I dont understand the argument of "GSP fights in a tougher weight class", because how do you know? yeah they may have been bigger "names" there but that doesnt mean its a better division, and to negate that argument anyway Anderson has fought and beat a top 5 opponent in the LHW division. Completly putting his reputation on line for no reason at all other than he wants to prove he is the best fighter in the world. GSP wont even trade with grapplers just because theres a slight chance he may get caught.


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## astrallite (Mar 14, 2010)

The main thing going for GSP is that his opponent's have had a higher win % than Anderson, Jose, Edgar, or Cruz. 

Although Jon Jones has beaten 12-0, 25-5, and 19-4, 10-3, 11-5, and 11-2 for his last 6 opponents.


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## MMAnWEED (Aug 8, 2010)

Whens the last time GSP has been in trouble? 
Who can say they beat GSP without being dominated by GSP at least once?
Who other than Nick Diaz who is in the top 10 that GSP has not beaten?
Who controls where the fight goes?
Who is the most well rounded champion?


GSP is P4P the best fighter. I don't understand the argument for Anderson Silva. He was held down and punched in the face by a guy who has never been considered a top 10 P4P fighter for over 22 minutes. -- What kind of counter argument could any one possibly create that justifies that man being P4P the best?? His ribs hurt???

Anderson is freakish but you can't expect to be P4P the best if you have that big of a hole in your game.


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## xxpillowxxjp (Aug 23, 2010)

MMAnWEED said:


> Whens the last time GSP has been in trouble?
> Who can say they beat GSP without being dominated by GSP at least once?
> Who other than Nick Diaz who is in the top 10 that GSP has not beaten?
> Who controls where the fight goes?
> ...


you are a fuckin idiot. Fedor was the p4p king before he lost, and guess what, he was dominated on the feet PLENTY of times, out classed on the ground, nearly knocked out, nearly subbed. MANY times, but what made him the p4p king was the he won. It didnt matter how, it didnt matter how close he was to losing, all the mattered was he got the W. Fedor didnt play it safe, he went in to win. Anderson silva doesnt control where fights go? Are you serious? Watch the maia fight, he controlled the fight. The only fight he hasnt controlled was the chael fight and maybe the hendo fight, but guess what, he WON. If he can get dominated in one area and still win, what more can you ask from him? Anderson Silva has never lost in the UFC, gsp has lost twice. who has the highest win percentage in the UFC vs top opponents? Anderson silva. Thats why hes #1. Thats why no matter how many guys GSP out points, he wont be #1. Because he lost twice and anderson silva doesnt have to out point guys to win. End of story.



Its not a hole in his game if he still wins in that "hole".


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

DJ Syko said:


> I dont understand the argument of "GSP fights in a tougher weight class", because how do you know? yeah they may have been bigger "names" there but that doesnt mean its a better division, and to negate that argument anyway Anderson has fought and beat a top 5 opponent in the LHW division. Completly putting his reputation on line for no reason at all other than he wants to prove he is the best fighter in the world. GSP wont even trade with grapplers just because theres a slight chance he may get caught.


He also beat Sakurai at WW when he was top 5 before he was in that car accident. So we have Anderson Silva who has beaten top ten fighters in 3 weight classes, has the longest championship reign in UFC history, and the best highlight reel in the history of the sport against a guy who hugs and jabs people for 5 rounds who lost his belt to a sub gatekeeper fighter once upon a time with no mitigating circumstances to excuse it. 

It isn't like Serra poked him in the eye and TKOed him while he was blind or GSP had some bad injury going into the fight. He got straight up beat down by an old mediocre midget fighter while he was in his prime. Beating Serra in the rematch doesn't remove that loss and his refusal to take risks to win since then amplifies it. 

Who has GSP even beaten that is so impressive? BJ Penn is seriously still this guys best win. A LW fighting at WW, come on. Anderson Silva destroyed Rich Franklin(twice), Dan Henderson, Vitor Belfort, and Forrest Griffin. Fitch isn't even a better fighter than Forrest Griffin they are essentially the same person Fitch just doesn't fight stupidly and gets decisions.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

osmium said:


> He also beat Sakurai at WW when he was top 5 before he was in that car accident. So we have Anderson Silva who has beaten top ten fighters in 3 weight classes, has the longest championship reign in UFC history, and the best highlight reel in the history of the sport against a guy who hugs and jabs people for 5 rounds who lost his belt to a sub gatekeeper fighter once upon a time with no mitigating circumstances to excuse it.
> 
> It isn't like Serra poked him in the eye and TKOed him while he was blind or GSP had some bad injury going into the fight. He got straight up beat down by an old mediocre midget fighter while he was in his prime. Beating Serra in the rematch doesn't remove that loss and his refusal to take risks to win since then amplifies it.
> 
> Who has GSP even beaten that is so impressive? BJ Penn is seriously still this guys best win. A LW fighting at WW, come on. Anderson Silva destroyed Rich Franklin(twice), Dan Henderson, Vitor Belfort, and Forrest Griffin. Fitch isn't even a better fighter than Forrest Griffin they are essentially the same person Fitch just doesn't fight stupidly and gets decisions.


lolbro. GSP has beaten EVERYONE. Hughes (P4P), Fitch (P4P), Penn (P4P), Shields (P4P). And that's just the people from the top P4P list he's beaten. Hell I'm confident both Fitch and Shields would UD Silva.


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## tigerblood (Mar 20, 2011)

There should be no weight classes and a 265lb limit in the UFC, so the little guys cant hide behind weight restrictions and get pounded on by heavyweights! Then we can finally see who is the greatest fighter in mma and not be stuck on this pound for pound bullshit.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

DJ Syko said:


> I dont understand the argument of "GSP fights in a tougher weight class", because how do you know? yeah they may have been bigger "names" there but that doesnt mean its a better division, and to negate that argument anyway Anderson has fought and beat a top 5 opponent in the LHW division. Completly putting his reputation on line for no reason at all other than he wants to prove he is the best fighter in the world. GSP wont even trade with grapplers just because theres a slight chance he may get caught.


Well.....I have a couple issues with some of your opinions.

First and foremost you could say that he cherry picked his 205 guys in Griffin and Irvin neither guy has the abilities that cause Silva problems (Wrestling submissions). And as Toxic is pointing out with Penn taking those fights can make a career. The implication is that he could win the LHW title, yet he's "friends" with Machida and Ruas, he's to "busy" to face Jones, and he won't say anything about Evans.

Secondly the argument about Silva not facing top competition is a legitimate one really how many middleweights are in consideration for p4p rankings? I'm a huge Okami/Lombard fan but they are at the bottom of a top 25. How many guys spend years hanging around the top of the rankings? And then you look at the guys who fought for the title and how very quickly they are out of the UFC or on the undercard. The issue isn't welterweight vs middleweight, it's middleweight vs every other weight class.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> lolbro. GSP has beaten EVERYONE. Hughes (P4P), Fitch (P4P), Penn (P4P), Shields (P4P). And that's just the people from the top P4P list he's beaten. Hell I'm confident both Fitch and Shields would UD Silva.


Fitch and Shields P4P frauds and BJ Penn LW. Come tell me about how great Shields is when he actually wins a fight in the UFC because I watched Kampmann and GSP both beat him and never be put in a position where it looked like Shields could finish them. Jakes Shields is the number one P4P least dangerous fighter in the UFC all he does is hug and girl slap. Doesn't go for submissions and doesn't hurt anyone with strikes outside of eye pokes. You are pretty delusional if you think those guys can survive 5 rounds with Anderson.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> BJ made a career out of being the smaller guy. BJ has tested himself against bigger guys, how many others on that list can say the same? Haters gonna hate.


Haters gonna hate... huh :confused02:


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Again...*this is P4P ---> *


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> Haters gonna hate... huh :confused02:


BJ Penn has never received his due in p4p rankings. Even when he was a former WW champ making the LW contenders look completely incompetent he wasn't getting his due. BJ is a LW and a small LW at that who gave a much larger guy who was considered the #2 or 3 WW in the world everything he could take and yet still somehow he gets ignored and even more baffling somehow the big WW makes the cut above him. I am still confident that if BJ had never left the LW division that everyone would still be considering him in the top 10 without a doubt. Give the man his due.


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## Indestructibl3 (Apr 2, 2009)

DJ Syko said:


> *GSP no1??? how on earth can anyone rank him no1? his record doesnt even compare to Anderson's in the slightest, anderson is 13-0 in the UFC and finished 11 of them, 9-0 in title fights(should be 10-0 if you include lutter), fought at 2 weight classes, has every record in the book, 90% of his fights are sensational to watch etc etc. theres nothing GSP has on anderson.
> *
> Fitch above Jones? Jones has mauled everyone he has fought, Fitch eeks out decisions fight after fight.
> 
> ...


Although I agree that Silva should be no.1 - I'll try and reason as to why they have GSP at the top. GSP has been beating up EVERY contender with relative ease on his current title run. He hadn't lost a round since the Shields fight, and even then wasn't in much danger. In terms of A.Silva - I also think the Sherdogger's (or, this Sherdogger) is preoccupied with the Sonnen fight where Silva got beat up for 4 1/2 rounds AND add on top of that the annoyance they have with him due to his antics in his fights with Leites and Maia. So I say due to GSP's absolute dominance against his contenders mixed with the factors I mentioned about Silva - they believe GSP > Silva in p4p.


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## MMAnWEED (Aug 8, 2010)

xxpillowxxjp said:


> you are a fuckin idiot. Fedor was the p4p king before he lost, and guess what, he was dominated on the feet PLENTY of times, out classed on the ground, nearly knocked out, nearly subbed. MANY times, but what made him the p4p king was the he won. It didnt matter how, it didnt matter how close he was to losing, all the mattered was he got the W. Fedor didnt play it safe, he went in to win. Anderson silva doesnt control where fights go? Are you serious? Watch the maia fight, he controlled the fight. The only fight he hasnt controlled was the chael fight and maybe the hendo fight, but guess what, he WON. If he can get dominated in one area and still win, what more can you ask from him? Anderson Silva has never lost in the UFC, gsp has lost twice. who has the highest win percentage in the UFC vs top opponents? Anderson silva. Thats why hes #1. Thats why no matter how many guys GSP out points, he wont be #1. Because he lost twice and anderson silva doesnt have to out point guys to win. End of story.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not a hole in his game if he still wins in that "hole".


First of all, I think someone needs a hug. Second of all, you're right Fedor definitely was outclassed at times in his career and GSP was not. Good argument. You also bring up GSP's two losses... those were recent right? Good thing they are because P4P is based off of current runs of domination so if GSP had lost lets say hmm.. 4 years ago? It'd be irrelevant. Good thing both losses happened this year right?

If he still wins in that "hole" how does the hole not exist if its a "hole" in the first place? wooooahhh mindfuck. Love ya <3


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## Indestructibl3 (Apr 2, 2009)

limba said:


> Again...*this is P4P ---> *


... Chael? Is that really you? :thumb02:


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Indestructibl3 said:


> ... Chael? Is that really you? :thumb02:


 nope...just a sleepy, tired, crazy romanian 

But honestly: i've just read something about Sonnen's opinion about P4P: i believe Oldfan has it in his sig - and i tend to agree in more than one way.

P4P is something very abstract.

It's something that can't be measured.

Because it implies the idea that all fighters included in those rankings could/should fight eachother at the same weight, using their skills and comparing their records (the fighters they've beaten and how decisive...etc): *something that's impossible.*

For example: if you campare GSP and Aldo: how do you compare them?! Wich weight would they fight eachother, to decide who is better?! The bigger weight or the smaller weight?!

How would GSP fair against Aldo's opponents??! And the other way around...

It's just imaginary land material...

It reminds me of my chidlhood, when i was arguing with my friends: who is tougher - Batman or Spiderman?! Jackoe Chan or Van Damme?!


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

John8204 said:


> Well.....I have a couple issues with some of your opinions.
> 
> First and foremost you could say that he cherry picked his 205 guys in Griffin and Irvin neither guy has the abilities that cause Silva problems (Wrestling submissions). And as Toxic is pointing out with Penn taking those fights can make a career. The implication is that he could win the LHW title, yet he's "friends" with Machida and Ruas, he's to "busy" to face Jones, and he won't say anything about Evans.
> 
> Secondly the argument about Silva not facing top competition is a legitimate one really how many middleweights are in consideration for p4p rankings? I'm a huge Okami/Lombard fan but they are at the bottom of a top 25. How many guys spend years hanging around the top of the rankings? And then you look at the guys who fought for the title and how very quickly they are out of the UFC or on the undercard. The issue isn't welterweight vs middleweight, it's middleweight vs every other weight class.


Maybe the reason why the WW division has looked the same for the last 3 or 4 years is because it doesnt have any depth to it, only recently it has started to deepen with the addition of Diaz, Condit and Shields etc. but GSP has had to fight 5 of his opponents at least twice because there was no one else to fight. Anderson has had destroyed contender after contender with only 1 rematch who was at the time of there first fight considered top 3 p4p.

And you are going to argue for GSP that anderson is dodging fights in a bigger weight class? come on, he has supposedly cleaned out the "toughest" division in the UFC twice and yet he aint moving no where.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

DJ Syko said:


> Maybe the reason why the WW division has looked the same for the last 3 or 4 years is because it doesnt have any depth to it, only recently it has started to deepen with the addition of Diaz, Condit and Shields etc. but GSP has had to fight 5 of his opponents at least twice because there was no one else to fight. Anderson has had destroyed contender after contender with only 1 rematch who was at the time of there first fight considered top 3 p4p.
> 
> And you are going to argue for GSP that anderson is dodging fights in a bigger weight class? come on, he has supposedly cleaned out the "toughest" division in the UFC twice and yet he aint moving no where.


I gotta agree here there are better fights at MW for Anderson with Okami and Sonnen waiting in the wings than there are for GSP at WW. Diaz is gonna get obliterated and Condit has never stood a chance.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

DJ Syko said:


> And you are going to argue for GSP that anderson is dodging fights in a bigger weight class? come on, he has supposedly cleaned out the "toughest" division in the UFC twice and yet he aint moving no where.


Well he can't make LW and Anderson Silva is at MW so that is obviously out of the question. Andy didn't pick who he fought at LHW either he just asked for fights at LHW and they gave them to him. This isn't boxing fighters don't generally get to hand pick opponents.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

GSP is rightfully #1 on this list. He may not get big knockouts or subs but he picks them apart with ease. When was the last time we ever saw GSP in any sort of trouble...

Silva is an amazing fighter but it wasn't too long ago that he was losing 23 minutes and it was looking like he was going to lose his title to a decent but not great fighter.

I don't agree with Fitch being so high, Shogun should definitely not be top 10, Shields should be 10th at best and Edgar might be a little high(not if he is to beat maynard in a rematch though). 

My rankings would actually look a lot like john8204's on post 10.


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## tigerblood (Mar 20, 2011)

Toxic said:


> I gotta agree here there are better fights at MW for Anderson with Okami and Sonnen waiting in the wings than there are for GSP at WW. *Diaz is gonna get obliterated and Condit has never stood a chance.*


:sarcastic12:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

420atalon said:


> GSP is rightfully #1 on this list. He may not get big knockouts or subs but he picks them apart with ease. When was the last time we ever saw GSP in any sort of trouble...


If Anderson Silva was fully blind in both eyes and had two broken arms he wouldn't lose 2 out of 5 rounds standing with Jake Shields.


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## MMAnWEED (Aug 8, 2010)

Toxic said:


> I gotta agree here there are better fights at MW for Anderson with Okami and Sonnen waiting in the wings than there are for GSP at WW. Diaz is gonna get obliterated and Condit has never stood a chance.


You mean more competitive I assume? Just shows GSP is that dominant that he has no one else that is a real challenge to him.

But even as a big fan of GSP, Nick Diaz and Carlos Condit are the two most well rounded fighters GSP has ever fought. Both guys with very unique jiu jitsu styles that don't let you rest when they're on their back... then again so does BJ Penn and we saw what happened there.


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## MMAnWEED (Aug 8, 2010)

osmium said:


> If Anderson Silva was fully blind in both eyes and had two broken arms he wouldn't lose 2 out of 5 rounds standing with Jake Shields.


Yet he got rocked by chael sonnen =]


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

MMAnWEED said:


> Yet he got rocked by chael sonnen =]


Not really, you can pretend he was badly hurt if it makes you feel better though.


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## MMAnWEED (Aug 8, 2010)

osmium said:


> Not really, you can pretend he was badly hurt if it makes you feel better though.


You're right, Anderson was acting when he stumbled.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

MMAnWEED said:


> You mean more competitive I assume? Just shows GSP is that dominant that he has no one else that is a real challenge to him.
> 
> But even as a big fan of GSP, Nick Diaz and Carlos Condit are the two most well rounded fighters GSP has ever fought. Both guys with very unique jiu jitsu styles that don't let you rest when they're on their back... then again so does BJ Penn and we saw what happened there.


Fist off please don't double post use the multi-quote and edit functions.

Now, yes somewhat I mean competitive but I also question the legitimacy of both men as contenders in that they have not been forced to fight a top 5 guy to earn there spot. Hell Diaz hasn't fought a top guy in forever and has been fighting B-rate fighters, heck the fact Cyborg fought for the SF WW title says all anyone needs to know about Diaz's competition level. Funny that Masival looked far better against Noons than the supposed top contender to the UFC WW title. Kos, Fitch, Shields and BJ would all savagely beat either Condit or Diaz. We don't need to see the fights we already know how the story ends.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

MMAnWEED said:


> You're right, Anderson was acting when he stumbled.


It's too bad they don't end fights for a guy stumbling a bit for a second.


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## MMAnWEED (Aug 8, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Fist off please don't double post use the multi-quote and edit functions.
> 
> Now, yes somewhat I mean competitive but I also question the legitimacy of both men as contenders in that they have not been forced to fight a top 5 guy to earn there spot. Hell Diaz hasn't fought a top guy in forever and has been fighting B-rate fighters, heck the fact Cyborg fought for the SF WW title says all anyone needs to know about Diaz's competition level. Funny that Masival looked far better against Noons than the supposed top contender to the UFC WW title. Kos, Fitch, Shields and BJ would all savagely beat either Condit or Diaz. We don't need to see the fights we already know how the story ends.


My bad.

I agree with there being better 170 lber's out there to fight but I feel like GSP has already dealt with them. Honestly, Fitch really deserves the second chance over any other guy but a lot of fans don't want to see that. I'm not completely sold with Diaz simply due to the fact this will be the first time in a while he will be fighting again in the UFC and well know the difference of competition but Carlos on the otherhand has proved himself consistently. We'll just have to wait and see.



osmium said:


> It's too bad they don't end fights for a guy stumbling a bit for a second.


When did I say it should have been stopped? I'm glad you admit he was rocked then that was my only point =]


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## astrallite (Mar 14, 2010)

tigerblood said:


> There should be no weight classes and a 265lb limit in the UFC, so the little guys cant hide behind weight restrictions and get pounded on by heavyweights! Then we can finally see who is the greatest fighter in mma and not be stuck on this pound for pound bullshit.


Would never get sanctioned.

Although I like what K-1 does with it's World Grand Prix tournament.

2 weight classes. 154lb and Unlimited.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

the now weight classes thing is ridiculous. The best fights are the lighter guys who are every bit if not more skilled than there counterparts. BJ Penn is undeniably one of the greatest fighters we have ever seen but lets be real he would never have accomplished anything fighting HW's. Being bigger does not make you better, who cares who can beat who up? I want to know who is the best and being the best is not based upon you being born bigger and stronger.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> the now weight classes thing is ridiculous. The best fights are the lighter guys who are every bit if not more skilled than there counterparts. BJ Penn is undeniably one of the greatest fighters we have ever seen but lets be real he would never have accomplished anything fighting HW's. Being bigger does not make you better, who cares who can beat who up? I want to know who is the best and being the best is not based upon you being born bigger and stronger.


Get off BJ's nuts. The guy is vastly overrated. He can hardly come in shape to his fights. We cant just ignore cardio for the sake of ignoring it. IMO he has no business being put in the top 10 until he can fight 5 rounds hard.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Who cares about P4P...honestly. The ratings are so inaccurate for the most part that I have stopped caring about the top 10 p4p. Not like it matters anyway...You are either a champ or you're not, and that's the only thing that matters.

And under Silva and GSP, which you can make an argument for either to be #1, the p4p rankings don't matter.


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## tigerblood (Mar 20, 2011)

Toxic said:


> the now weight classes thing is ridiculous. The best fights are the lighter guys who are every bit if not more skilled than there counterparts. BJ Penn is undeniably one of the greatest fighters we have ever seen but lets be real he would never have accomplished anything fighting HW's. Being bigger does not make you better, *who cares who can beat who up?* I want to know who is the best and being the best is not based upon you being born bigger and stronger.


Its MMA i wont to see people getting beat up and KO'd not hit with pillow punches for 3/5 rounds. If you wont to know who is the best right now if everyone fought at there natural weight the winner is Cain Velasquesz. Being light is a choice - look at pat barry hes what 3 foot 1 and fights in the heavyweight division. Hes just got a bigger dick than most midget fighters. Frankie Edgar hits Clay Guida with all his power right on the jaw - Guida doesnt feel it. Roy Nelson his Guida in the jaw hes proberly going to die.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

tigerblood said:


> Its MMA i wont to see people getting beat up and KO'd not hit with pillow punches for 3/5 rounds. If you wont to know who is the best right now if everyone fought at there natural weight the winner is Cain Velasquesz. Being light is a choice - look at pat barry hes what 3 foot 1 and fights in the heavyweight division. Hes just got a bigger dick than most midget fighters.


Well i seriously doubt he is 3 foot 1. I think you need to figure out what a "Foot" is.


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## tigerblood (Mar 20, 2011)

SideWays222 said:


> *Well i seriously doubt he is 3 foot 1*. I think you need to figure out what a "Foot" is.


No shit Sherlock.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

tigerblood said:


> No shit Sherlock.


Nope, no shit.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

tigerblood said:


> P4p rankings are nothing more than opinion. Made up by bloggers, completely useless. null. Chael said it best.
> 
> Heres a list for you:
> 
> ...


Ah no. Pound for pound came about because everybody always loved watching the heavyweights like Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano et al throughout boxing history. However, when Sugar Ray Robinson came around, even the heavyweights themselves liked watching him the most and so it was stated that he was the best fighter in the world when matched against his equals (in weight).

It is actually a very very big part of boxing and will become so of MMA. Not just by bloggers, but it is used a lot in promotion and allows the very casual fans to know who the absolute best fighters are regardless of weight (just as an official title does in regards to weight).

As for the P4P list, I think Anderson Silva makes a good point in giving it to BJ Penn. I personally thought the first Edgar fight was a draw, he fought a draw with Fitch, I thought the first GSP fight was a draw and the guy has gone the distance with Lyoto Machida. W T F. Nobody has done anything close to that let alone had the ballz to try!


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

tigerblood said:


> Its MMA i wont to see people getting beat up and KO'd not hit with pillow punches for 3/5 rounds. If you wont to know who is the best right now if everyone fought at there natural weight the winner is Cain Velasquesz. Being light is a choice - look at pat barry hes what 3 foot 1 and fights in the heavyweight division. Hes just got a bigger dick than most midget fighters. Frankie Edgar hits Clay Guida with all his power right on the jaw - Guida doesnt feel it. Roy Nelson his Guida in the jaw hes proberly going to die.


There is a major difference, I want to see great fights you want to see squash matches. The only difference is that in reality none of the little guys would fight if there were no weight classes. They would simply find other lines of work not stick around and be cannon fodder. That would leave us a bunch of HW's the most boring division in all of mma. They are big slow and run out of gas quickly. F**** that I want to see fights like the great one Faber and Cruz put on because the HW division has never had fights that good.


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## spaulding91 (Sep 23, 2007)

Fine Wine said:


> Ah no. Pound for pound came about because everybody always loved watching the heavyweights like Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano et al throughout boxing history. However, when Sugar Ray Robinson came around, even the heavyweights themselves liked watching him the most and so it was stated that he was the best fighter in the world when matched against his equals (in weight).
> 
> It is actually a very very big part of boxing and will become so of MMA. Not just by bloggers, but it is used a lot in promotion and allows the very casual fans to know who the absolute best fighters are regardless of weight (just as an official title does in regards to weight).
> 
> As for the P4P list, I think Anderson Silva makes a good point in giving it to BJ Penn. I personally thought the first Edgar fight was a draw, he fought a draw with Fitch, I thought the first GSP fight was a draw and the guy has gone the distance with Lyoto Machida. W T F. Nobody has done anything close to that let alone had the ballz to try!


Ummmmmmm ever heard of a guy called Dan Henderson??? A 185'er who has wins at MW, LHW, and HW. Held 2 titles in 2 different weight classes simultaneously. Oh and is about to fight everyones favorite heavyweight Fedor.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Probably because GSP would beat if they were to fight.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Toxic said:


> There is a major difference, I want to see great fights you want to see squash matches. The only difference is that in reality none of the little guys would fight if there were no weight classes. They would simply find other lines of work not stick around and be cannon fodder. That would leave us a bunch of HW's the most boring division in all of mma. They are big slow and run out of gas quickly. F**** that I want to see fights like the great one Faber and Cruz put on because the HW division has never had fights that good.


I agree and disagree , HW's can produce great fights just see Fedor etc but the majority like you say suck.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

GSP should be ahead of Silva. GSP has dominated every single person he's ever fought. Even in his two losses he completely dominated the re-matches. Whether you finish or not should have no bearing on your dominance. Silva got his ass kicked by Sonnen for 23 minutes. The best P4P fighter in the would shouldn't get his ass handed to him for that long.

Silva is number two. GSP is number one.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> GSP should be ahead of Silva. GSP has dominated every single person he's ever fought. Even in his two losses he completely dominated the re-matches. Whether you finish or not should have no bearing on your dominance. Silva got his ass kicked by Sonnen for 23 minutes. The best P4P fighter in the would shouldn't get his ass handed to him for that long.
> 
> Silva is number two. GSP is number one.


Yeah i tend to agree. Silva just has a style thats better for finishes. Silva doesnt exactly dominate all his opponents before he finishes them. GSP on the other hand tends to dominate 25min until his eye poke to Jake Shields.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Yeah, I have been saying since the start that P4P status shouldn't just be KOs. The one thing that puts GSP ahead of Silva for the #1 spot in my eyes is that he fights and puts his opponents in situations where he wants the fight. Silva on the other hand tries to provoke fighters with taunts so he can counter them(Forrest, Leites, Maia). 

I don't want to nitpick here but Chael is the only fighter who wasn't tailor made for a Silva KO, I don't want to name Henderson because he using his wrestling more for TDD to keep the fight standing, not a true GnP fighter. Forrest over committed and Silva put him down which ended up one of the best KOs I have seen. Leites and Maia have no wrestling and no striking, pure BJJ. 

Can't say anything about Vitor Belfort. Silva really shocked me with how quick he was able to finish that fight, caught Belfort flat footed.

GSP is facing wrestlers,strikers and JJ fighters and dominating them in every category. I don't want to take anything away from what Anderson has done, he has phenomenal movement and pin point striking but his weakness is wrestling and Sonnen was the first real test for him in that category. 

And Anderson is the more exciting fighter, just figured I'd put this in because it seems like I am bashing him.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Are we all forgetting this is SHERDOG we're talking about?


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> GSP should be ahead of Silva. GSP has dominated every single person he's ever fought. Even in his two losses he completely dominated the re-matches. Whether you finish or not should have no bearing on your dominance. Silva got his ass kicked by Sonnen for 23 minutes. The best P4P fighter in the would shouldn't get his ass handed to him for that long.
> 
> Silva is number two. GSP is number one.


Yeah anderson was getting beat on for 23 mins and he still managed to get the finish, GSP has supposedly dominated his opponents for last 1 hr and 40 mins of his combined fights and still couldnt finish any of them. Finishing a guy within minutes or even seconds is a way more dominant way to win than winning a decision, theres not even a argument.


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## Saiyan3s (Oct 5, 2007)

GSP & ASilva , really 1 & 2 is always gonna be debatable until sum1 loses or they fight each other ..\

I disagree with any rankings that has Aldo #3 .


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

DJ Syko said:


> Yeah anderson was getting beat on for 23 mins and he still managed to get the finish, GSP has supposedly dominated his opponents for last 1 hr and 40 mins of his combined fights and still couldnt finish any of them. Finishing a guy within minutes or even seconds is a way more dominant way to win than winning a decision, *theres not even a argument.*


There most certainly is an argument.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

DJ Syko said:


> Yeah anderson was getting beat on for 23 mins and he still managed to get the finish, GSP has *supposedly* dominated his opponents for last 1 hr and 40 mins of his combined fights and still couldnt finish any of them. Finishing a guy within minutes or even seconds is a way more dominant way to win than winning a decision, theres not even a argument.


LOL. You say supposedly like it's debatable. GSP has dominated every fighter he's ever faced. And he's faced great wrestlers, strikers, and BJJ artist. He's shown no weakness thus far. He's the most well rounded, and has been the most dominant. THAT is not even an argument.

P4P means being the best. Period. The best fighter in the world shouldn't get his ass kicked for 23 minutes straight... whether he still gets the W or not. GSP has been more well rounded, and more dominant. Anderson is far more entertaining and gets far better KO's. But unfortunately I don't think either one of those things should influence a P4P position.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

DJ Syko said:


> Yeah anderson was getting beat on for 23 mins and he still managed to get the finish, GSP has supposedly dominated his opponents for last 1 hr and 40 mins of his combined fights and still couldnt finish any of them. Finishing a guy within minutes or even seconds is a way more dominant way to win than winning a decision, theres not even a argument.


Uhhhhhh ok... i guess the planet is flat. THERE IS NOT EVEN AN ARGUMENT!! GOT THAT!!! GAHHHH


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## Spic_D (Jan 2, 2011)

Its funny how people say Anderson should be #1 because GSP doesn't finish fight. P4P is supposed to be who will win if they were in the same weightclass, so it doesn't really matter who finish fights because how do you know GSP wouldn't UD AS?


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## tigerblood (Mar 20, 2011)

PheelGoodInc said:


> LOL. You say supposedly like it's debatable. GSP has dominated every fighter he's ever faced. And he's faced great wrestlers, strikers, and BJJ artist. He's shown no weakness thus far. He's the most well rounded, and has been the most dominant. THAT is not even an argument.
> 
> P4P means being the best. Period. The best fighter in the world shouldn't get his ass kicked for 23 minutes straight... whether he still gets the W or not. GSP has been more well rounded, and more dominant. Anderson is far more entertaining and gets far better KO's. But unfortunately I don't think either one of those things should influence a P4P position.


GSP is #1, until someone actually hits him with a PAWNCH to the face. Then he will curl up and tap.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

tigerblood said:


> GSP is #1, until someone actually hits him with a PAWNCH to the face. Then he will curl up and tap.


I was going to write a reply, but then I decided to do so more on your level.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

spaulding91 said:


> Ummmmmmm ever heard of a guy called Dan Henderson??? A 185'er who has wins at MW, LHW, and HW. Held 2 titles in 2 different weight classes simultaneously. Oh and is about to fight everyones favorite heavyweight Fedor.


Yes, good point on Dan Henderson.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Nefilim777 said:


> Are we all forgetting this is SHERDOG we're talking about?


SHERDOG rankings cop a lot of flack, but which ones are better? MMAweekly doesn't even include guys like Sandro, Pitbull or Warren in their top 10 FWs? W T F....

So which site has the best rankings lists?


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

DJ Syko said:


> GSP no1??? how on earth can anyone rank him no1?


GSP dominates his opponents. Anderson got beat up by Sonnen.
Just for today I'll rank Wanderlei Silva as #1 then I have Brock Lesnar as #2!
Am I wrong? No, we just disagree! 
P4P rankings are biased and personal and there Is no such thing as an "official" P4P list.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> LOL. You say supposedly like it's debatable. GSP has dominated every fighter he's ever faced. And he's faced great wrestlers, strikers, and BJJ artist. He's shown no weakness thus far. He's the most well rounded, and has been the most dominant. THAT is not even an argument.
> 
> P4P means being the best. Period. The best fighter in the world shouldn't get his ass kicked for 23 minutes straight... whether he still gets the W or not. GSP has been more well rounded, and more dominant. Anderson is far more entertaining and gets far better KO's. But unfortunately I don't think either one of those things should influence a P4P position.


How can you say he more well rounded? he cant even finish grapplers on his feet or Strikers on the ground. Anderson destroys strikers on his feet and subs grapplers on the ground, is their an argument there? also GSP has been subbed and tko'd in the UFC, how many times has anderson? 

Just watch a highlight video of them both(obvisouly andersons will be a lot longer :thumb02 and come and tell me who is more well rounded or dominant.


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

DJ Syko said:


> Anderson destroys strikers on his feet and *subs grapplers on the ground*, *is their an argument there? *


Maia and Leites says hello!


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Vale_Tudo said:


> Maia and Leites says hello!


yeah coz they were really close fights right? :sarcastic12:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

DJ Syko said:


> How can you say he more well rounded? he cant even finish grapplers on his feet or Strikers on the ground. Anderson destroys strikers on his feet and subs grapplers on the ground, is their an argument there? also GSP has been subbed and tko'd in the UFC, how many times has anderson?
> 
> Just watch a highlight video of them both(obvisouly andersons will be a lot longer :thumb02 and come and tell me who is more well rounded or dominant.





Vale_Tudo said:


> Maia and Leites says hello!





DJ Syko said:


> yeah coz they were really close fights right? :sarcastic12:


Here's anderson getting ready for Leites. So, who's the #1 P4P greaser?


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

As far as who is the P4P best, I'm not sure how anybody could clearly seperate Silva and GSP. Both have absolutely decimated some legendary fighters (one by stopping them, the other by completely outclassing them round after round after round).


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

DJ Syko said:


> yeah coz they were really close fights right? :sarcastic12:


Duh!
You're the one who said he subs the grapplers and outstrikes the strikers.

And Im sure the fights would've been alot closer If Anderson wasnt "playing It safe" and wanting to stand all the time. :sarcastic12:


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Fine Wine said:


> SHERDOG rankings cop a lot of flack, but which ones are better? MMAweekly doesn't even include guys like Sandro, Pitbull or Warren in their top 10 FWs? W T F....
> 
> So which site has the best rankings lists?


mmafighting.com


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## Breadfan (Jan 3, 2008)

You cannot find out the P4P list by eliminating weight classes. 

P4P doesn't mean "who could win in a fight against everyone" because then people like Joezay Aldo would never be on the list, since they could never beat Cain or JDS etc. 


P4P is indeed an abstract, because it is only perception. It's basically saying that a pound of Fighter A has more fight in it than a pound of Fighter B. 


It will never be tested, and can never be proved. The only P4P list that will EVER be 100% accurate is BobbyCooper's.


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

Breadfan said:


> It's basically saying that a pound of Fighter A has more fight in it than a pound of Fighter B.


Here's how I view this P4P nonsense.
Imagine a special world where Fighter A (Aldo) can go fight Fighter (B) Lesnar, and In this puff the magic dragon world both fighters weigh In at exactly the same magical 200lbs limit and they both they take their strengts and weaknesses with them. 

So, Brock would still curl up like a little girl once Aldo punches him In the face. Thus Aldo Is ranked higher than Lesnar....*IMO*

Take GSP vs Anderson. I see GSP being STRONGER than Anderson and will use his superior Wrestling and win decisively at the judges. Thus GSP Is above Anderson on *MY*P4P list.

People seem to judge P4P on who they have beaten at their respective classes and make a list from that point, which I never quite understood. People In weak division would be ranked much higher than guys In tougher classes. So I always put A vs B when I do these stupid lists.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Vale_Tudo said:


> Duh!
> You're the one who said he subs the grapplers and outstrikes the strikers.
> 
> And Im sure the fights would've been alot closer If Anderson wasnt "playing It safe" and wanting to stand all the time. :sarcastic12:


ahh right i forgot you have to be the best in the world at everything to be no1, just because i said he subbed grapplers doesnt mean i meant every grappler he has faced. Stop picking a weak pointless argument to try and brush over the main point i was getting at.


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## Bobby Wheeler (Jun 4, 2011)

Any true MMA fan could see logic in having any of the top 4 fighters on this list being number one.We all know GSP fights safe these days because he does not wanna lose his belt.The other three are probably more vicious strikers, but no argument from me about GSP being number one in pound for pound.This is from someone who always cheers for him to lose, so my post is unbiased.


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