# Question regarding Bruce Lee



## shadow_dragon

*Bruce Lee vs any UFC fighter*

Hi all, I'm new to this forum and was wondering if you could all help me settle a long running debate I have been having with my friends. 

Everyone knows that Bruce Lee is the greatest fighter ever and I tell my friends who all watch UFC that he could easily defeat any of them however they all tell me I'm wrong. The main reasons I feel he could beat any UFC (or MMA fighter) is:

One inch punch - I feel this is his strongest ally as it requires little room (1 inch) to deploy it so could be done even when being grabbled and the speed of it cannot be blocked. Anyone he hits with this is as good as finished
Didn't need to fight people on the ground - from what ive seen most mma is ended on the ground with some unwieldy hold however Bruce PERFECTED the art of beating his opponents whilst they were standing up. In short he would not need to rely about getting them on the ground
Mental toughness - the brain can be the warriors strongest or weakest weapon. Bruce was subjected to a rigorous training regime like no other on earth plus allegedly achieved enlightenment so his mental prowess would ensure his victory

There are a few more points but I feel that makes my case, any honest feedback or constructive criticism would be much appreciated. No haterz though.

Shadow Dragon


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## kamikaze145

A bruce lee could defeat any mma fighter thread.....I have never seen anything like this :thumbsdown:

Seriously, Miguel Torres is the best 135 pounder and as much of a beast Bruce was fighting has evolved so much I think Torres would light him up. In an mma fight.


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## shadow_dragon

thanks for the quick reply kamikaze145. I'm not familiar with this Torres character however fighting does not evolve, only fighters evolve. The main aim of fighting now is the same as it was thousands of years ago and Bruce was the best ever. Without more info about this torres guy I can't imagine him beating the master


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## One Armed Boxer

shadow_dragon said:


> Hi all, I'm new to this forum and was wondering if you could all help me settle a long running debate I have been having with my friends.
> 
> Everyone knows that Bruce Lee is the greatest fighter ever and I tell my friends who all watch UFC that he could easily defeat any of them however they all tell me I'm wrong. The main reasons I feel he could beat any UFC (or MMA fighter) is:
> 
> One inch punch - I feel this is his strongest ally as it requires little room (1 inch) to deploy it so could be done even when being grabbled and the speed of it cannot be blocked. Anyone he hits with this is as good as finished
> Didn't need to fight people on the ground - from what ive seen most mma is ended on the ground with some unwieldy hold however Bruce PERFECTED the art of beating his opponents whilst they were standing up. In short he would not need to rely about getting them on the ground
> Mental toughness - the brain can be the warriors strongest or weakest weapon. Bruce was subjected to a rigorous training regime like no other on earth plus allegedly achieved enlightenment so his mental prowess would ensure his victory
> 
> There are a few more points but I feel that makes my case, any honest feedback or constructive criticism would be much appreciated. No haterz though.
> 
> Shadow Dragon


Wow. You know, it's funny...I have a friend JUST LIKE this guy, who thinks Jet Li could beat any MMA fighter. Take Enter the Dragon out of your DVD player and put on some UFC, dude. Time to learn what the **** you're talking about.


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## HeavyRob

You're new. I'll let this slide for now. But just so you know, threads like this pop up every once in a while. 

Although you have reasons:



shadow_dragon said:


> One inch punch - I feel this is his strongest ally as it requires little room (1 inch) to deploy it so could be done even when being grabbled and the speed of it cannot be blocked. Anyone he hits with this is as good as finished


The one inch punch could not be implemented on the ground in grappling. it requires a solid stance to turn the hips.



shadow_dragon said:


> Didn't need to fight people on the ground - from what ive seen most mma is ended on the ground with some unwieldy hold however Bruce PERFECTED the art of beating his opponents whilst they were standing up. In short he would not need to rely about getting them on the ground


Opening scene in Enter the Dragon. He ends the fight on the ground.



shadow_dragon said:


> Mental toughness - the brain can be the warriors strongest or weakest weapon. Bruce was subjected to a rigorous training regime like no other on earth plus allegedly achieved enlightenment so his mental prowess would ensure his victory


True. He was indeed very mentally tough. 


Welcome to the forum


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## demoman993

Just one thing to think of before you or any other new guy starts a new thread like this.....

Rob Emerson can beat all of them on leg kicks alone!!

I hope this doesn't deter you from starting new threads but I figured I'd get it out in the clear.


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## HeavyRob

oh, and I don't know how I forgot this earlier... one word, really.



Fedor.


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## Bebop

Seems you've bought into the "myth" of Bruce Lee more than anything. I believe it would be fairly easy to say that Bruce would not do to well in MMA with the skills he had. 

Yes, fighting does evolve. For thousands of years there were different martial arts. It was often disputed which was "The Best Martial Art". It wasn't until things like the UFC popped up 15-20 years ago, that we saw a blending of martial arts. Thus changing (evolving) Martial arts forever.

Bruce understood that and began incorporating different aspects together, things like: grappling and submissions. Fighters today are far ahead of where Bruce was. 

I'm a huge Bruce Lee fan too, but I have to say that you're way off in your assumption of his potential in MMA.


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## CornbreadBB

You should really make a best P4P fighter thread, too. We need one of those.


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## DickCheeze

Bruce Lee was a great martial artist and legend. However, he would get beat up in MMA. It is impossible for another man just to run through other top notch fighters. Bruce Lee is the man, but MMA fighting is something he really hadn't seen. Assuming he would kick everyone's ass is probably the dumbest thing I've ever read. Bruce Lee would get beat up in MMA. He would have a chance to be good, but he'd be fighting at 135. If he fought bigger guys, he would get smashed. Even at 135, there is no guarantee he would even compete favorably.


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## Liddellianenko

Um, Bruce Lee never fought a real goddamned fight in his entire life. He didn't perfect the art of fighting without going to the ground, he perfected the art of making flashy entertaining movies to impress the casual viewers. One inch punch doesn't work, it's all make-believe. He did some nice things refining traditional martial arts into JKD, but it's still only a precursor to modern MMA. 

Since you base your opinion of reality on movies, I'd say write to your local representative; tell him that we should screw this whole troops in Afghanistan for Al Qaeda thing and just send Silvester Stallone over. He'll be like "Why didn't we think of that?!", then they'll dedicate a national holiday to you.


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## Poland

Don't want to bump this up, but just a couple comments to the OP -

1) Wasn't Bruce Lee defeated back in the day? I know he was a phenominal fighter, but I don't recall him as not ever being beat. For whatever it's worth, I knew a guy who was into martial arts (obviously an older guy, reference time period) and he told me he'd seen Bruce Lee get beat. He said Lee was very, very good (duh), and what was most impressive was his hand speed. The guy (Jim) stated it was basically super difficult to keep track of his arms below the elbow - super fast fighter with lots of focus. He'd wathced him do the 3 inch punch or whatever. As someone already noted that comes from a strong base being able to use your hips, but also shoulder, which would be moot in many grappling situations.

2) Bruce could have learned more if he were alive today, but if you are saying the Bruce Lee from back then would beat everyone, you are wrong. Bruce was partly so good because of his enlightening interpretation of the martial arts, to incorporate all the arts, and focus on the best techniques from them. Still, I don't know if he incorporated much wrestling into his training, and I would say any great wrestler that could slightly distract him with decent stand-up would be able to get a takedown on him. At that point, the mma game of today (Damian Maia is an extreme case, but any top tier BJJ practitioner) would be able to submit the Bruce Lee you are referencing.


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## Ape City

Honestly it is like saying a 69 BMW is better than a 2009. Perhaps you like the style better, but things have evolved. It really isn't a fair comparison.

Bruce Lee would be proud to see how far MMA has come.


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## Vestax80

I think it's pretty obvious that Bruce couldn't compete in MMA with the set of skills he had. The real question is; If Bruce Lee could give the same kind of commitment to MMA that he gave to Kung Fu would he be a contender?


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## anth brown

right, long time reader here, first time poster.....

i think bruce lee's abilitys can not be doubted, i dont think his skill set would do well against that of a modern day mma fighter.... however, i do think that the guy would be leapes and bounds ahead of any other fighter if given the same training... or if he were born in this day & age with his natural ability etc


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## tecnotut

shadow_dragon said:


> Everyone knows that Bruce Lee is the greatest fighter ever and I tell my friends who all watch UFC that he could easily defeat any of them however they all tell me I'm wrong. The main reasons I feel he could beat any UFC (or MMA fighter) is:
> 
> One inch punch
> 
> Didn't need to fight people on the ground
> 
> Mental toughness
> 
> 
> Shadow Dragon


Which all means nothing unless you've fought in a competition. Has Bruce ever fought in a real tournament? Nope? Has he fought any ranked fighters? Nope. Has he won any championships? Nope. Has he made lots of movies? Yup. 

Finally, the only fights we've ever heard of is when he fights some mysterious, unknown "grandmaster" behind closed doors, or some schmuck off the streets. It's all meaningless. For Christ's sake, at least Van Damme formally competed and had an 18-2 record in karate. 

PS - you are at an extreme disadvantage if you don't know how to fight on the ground.


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## leifdawg

Bruce Lee is arguably the first mixed martial artist and was an amazing physical specimen. However, with the skillset he had at his death he would get beat by anyone with a decent ground game.

But, I will say if Bruce Lee was alive and in his prime today, he would be training all the different discipline and with his focus and natural athleticism would probably dominate his weight class.



tecnotut said:


> Which all means nothing unless you've fought in a competition. Has Bruce ever fought in a real tournament? Nope? Has he fought any ranked fighters? Nope. Has he won any championships? Nope. Has he made lots of movies? Yup.
> 
> Finally, the only fights we've ever heard of is when he fights some "grandmaster" behind closed doors, or some schmuck off the streets. It's all meaningless. For Christ's sake, at least Van Damme formally competed and had an 18-2 record in karate.
> 
> PS - you are at an extreme disadvantage if you don't know how to fight on the ground.


A lot of history's best fighters never entered any tournaments.


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## Liddellianenko

leifdawg said:


> A lot of history's best fighters never entered any tournaments.


Like who? More movie stars and myths? Unless they actually fight to prove it, it is usually nothing more than choreography, sideshow tricks and old wives tales.


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## Vale_Tudo

shadow_dragon said:


> I tell my friends who all watch UFC that he could easily defeat any of them however they all tell me I'm wrong.


Let me put It this way, Kim Couture (Randy's wife) could **** Bruce Lee... literally


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## CornbreadBB

KEELr said:


> Let me put It this way, Kim Couture (Randy's wife) could **** Bruce Lee... literally


I could **** Bruce Lee also, what does that even mean?


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## M_D

One Armed Boxer said:


> Wow. You know, it's funny...I have a friend JUST LIKE this guy, who thinks Jet Li could beat any MMA fighter. Take Enter the Dragon out of your DVD player and put on some UFC, dude. Time to learn what the **** you're talking about.


I dont know about any MMA fighter but Jet Lee is actually the real deal and not just a movie martial artist just FYI. He was winning adult Tourneys when he was still a teenager and to young to even compete in them. he would have to work on his ground game a bit but his stand up I believe would do well against allot of MMA Fighters just IMO


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## Tyson2011

bruce lee wins...as i've yet to see a mma practitioner do this


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## plazzman

Oh God please no. Not another Bruce Lee vs MMA thread. Why oh why does there have to be atleast 3 of these a month?

Least original topic ever.


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## swpthleg

I don't know. Why can't we just have a jun fan jeet kune do appreciation thread and leave it at that?


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## Liddellianenko

Tyson2011 said:


> bruce lee wins...as i've yet to see a mma practitioner do this


Pretty cool, shows a lot of reflexes and hand eye coordination but that's where any relation to fighting ends. There's all kinds of circus acts and street performers that do things like this and ten times crazier but no one calls them the best fighter ever born for it. Fun to watch though, and nice find, repped.

EDIT: nm, it's a fraud.. the footage is from a phone Ad and is an impersonator, possibly CGI edited as well. I want my rep back . Shows the exact kinda thing that builds up these crazy legends.


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## plazzman

Liddellianenko said:


> Pretty cool, shows a lot of reflexes and hand eye coordination but that's where any relation to fighting ends. There's all kinds of circus acts and street performers that do things like this and ten times crazier but no one calls them the best fighter ever born for it. Fun to watch though, and nice find, repped.


(Pst, hey! It's a commercial. It's not real)


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## Liddellianenko

lol, just figured that out before you posted.. i got suckad!


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## Tyson2011

aww damn, and here i thought i found something wicked awesome...my bad haha

atleast its a cool commercial?


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## kamikaze145

shadow_dragon said:


> thanks for the quick reply kamikaze145. I'm not familiar with this Torres character however fighting does not evolve, only fighters evolve. The main aim of fighting now is the same as it was thousands of years ago and Bruce was the best ever. Without more info about this torres guy I can't imagine him beating the master


well i meant the techniques of fighting and the way its looked at has evolved.


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## _RIVAL_

Bruce was good but if he ever encountered this fighter his style would be completly nullified.........http://www.mmaforum.com/mma-smacktalk/52302-buddy-youre-wrong-line-work.html


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## shadow_dragon

Thanks for all your great input, good to feel such a sense of community on these boards. I do however feel that you are all pretty much missing the point of what it is to be a warrior, whilst technically very good at their MMA fighting it is still a sport and that's what these fighters are...sportsmen. Bruce Lee was a true fighter though and as such would have the killers instinct, bravery and desire needed to defeat them.


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## joppp

Bruce was a physical specimen and p4p very strong. But no matter how good you are you will ALWAYS have to worry about the ground. Imagine freakin' Coleman against Bruce, he wouldn't get back up ever if he got taken down by him, which he would. (Also, I really don't believe Kung Fu is the ultimate stand up art either.) A Man proven himself in many full contact, *well documented* encounters, that is someone I will belive is a good fighter in that specific art.

So IMO Miguel would work Lee, in MMA.



shadow_dragon said:


> Thanks for all your great input, good to feel such a sense of community on these boards. I do however feel that you are all pretty much missing the point of what it is to be a warrior, whilst technically very good at their MMA fighting it is still a sport and that's what these fighters are...sportsmen. Bruce Lee was a true fighter though and as such would have the killers instinct, bravery and desire needed to defeat them.


By that logic Bruce Lee was an ACTOR. Many MMA fighters today have probably encountered more dangerous real life situations than Lee ever have. What "warrior-like has Lee done? Specifically? When he talks about his stuff he sounds pretty stoned, tbh...


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## shadow_dragon

joppp said:


> Bruce was a physical specimen and p4p very strong. But no matter how good you are you will ALWAYS have to worry about the ground. Imagine freakin' Coleman against Bruce, he wouldn't get back up ever if he got taken down by him, which he would. (Also, I really don't believe Kung Fu is the ultimate stand up art either.) A Man proven himself in many full contact, *well documented* encounters, that is someone I will belive is a good fighter in that specific art.
> 
> So IMO Miguel would work Lee, in MMA.
> 
> 
> 
> By that logic Bruce Lee was an ACTOR. Many MMA fighters today have probably encountered more dangerous real life situations than Lee ever have. What "warrior-like has Lee done? Specifically? When he talks about his stuff he sounds pretty stoned, tbh...


Bruce Lee became an actor due to his fighting ability, had he not been such a powerful warrior he would not have been chosen. Throughout his life he fought people constantly, most of the time these were not in tournaments so there were no rules in place like there are in MMA. In other words anything goes and he had to make sure he could defend himself from anything and anyone.


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## xeberus

I'd say pretty certainly the top 10 fighters in each weight class in the ufc would take bruce lee in an mma fight.


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## tecnotut

shadow_dragon said:


> Bruce Lee became an actor due to his fighting ability,


What factual basis can you provide that he was a good fighter?


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## Bazza89

Troll.

This dude's gotta be from that MMAFighting.net or whatever it's called.


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## shadow_dragon

tecnotut said:


> What factual basis can you provide that he was a good fighter?


No one has ever contested as to whether he was a good fighter, but my main reasons for it would be:

1. His films
2. The internet
3. The Legend


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## tecnotut

shadow_dragon said:


> No one has ever contested as to whether he was a good fighter, but my main reasons for it would be:
> 
> 1. His films
> 2. The internet
> 3. The Legend


Didn't you contest he was a great fighter? Didn't you say he was better (or can beat) any MMA fighter? I've never seen so much praise to a man's fighting skills with little or no professional fights at all as I have with Bruce Lee.


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## shadow_dragon

tecnotut said:


> Didn't you contest he was a great fighter? Didn't you say he was better (or can beat) any MMA fighter? I've never seen so much praise to a man's fighting skills with little or no professional fights at all as I have with Bruce Lee.


thats the thing he was a PURE fighter, not a PROFESSIONAL fighter. In other words he wasn't protected by a set of rules or guidelines like in UFC, in real life you don't have a referee making sure your opponents fights fairly. Bruce had to fight all comers and all styles and his reputation preceeds him, the fact that he doesnt have a record of 'matches' is a testament to the type of fighter he was.


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## joppp

shadow_dragon said:


> thats the thing he was a PURE fighter, not a PROFESSIONAL fighter. In other words he wasn't protected by a set of rules or guidelines like in UFC, in real life you don't have a referee making sure your opponents fights fairly. Bruce had to fight all comers and all styles and his reputation preceeds him, the fact that he doesnt have a record of 'matches' is a testament to the type of fighter he was.


But WHAT HAS HE DONE? How can you say he's a warrior when all he did was movies and Kung fu!? What do you have to back it up with? Who has he beaten in real life? 

You seem like a nice guy, so I won't come with any insults or sh!t like that, but you are sorta just spurting things out at the moment...

Also, Royce Gracie also fought no rules against pretty much every style and PAWNED their asses. And although one of the pinoeers of the sport, he later became a rather mediocre MMA fighter. Search on youtube for Royce Gracie vs (insert martial art) and there is solid video proof.


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## shadow_dragon

joppp said:


> But WHAT HAS HE DONE? How can you say he's a warrior when all he did was movies and Kung fu!? What do you have to back it up with? Who has he beaten in real life?
> 
> You seem like a nice guy, so I won't come with any insults or sh!t like that, but you are sorta just spurting things out at the moment...
> 
> Also, Royce Gracie also fought no rules against pretty much every style and PAWNED their asses. And although one of the pinoeers of the sport, he later became a rather mediocre MMA fighter. Search on youtube for Royce Gracie vs (insert martial art) and there is solid video proof.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee#Challengers_on_the_set - that should answer your query. I win.


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## tecnotut

shadow_dragon said:


> thats the thing he was a PURE fighter, not a PROFESSIONAL fighter. In other words he wasn't protected by a set of rules or guidelines like in UFC, in real life you don't have a referee making sure your opponents fights fairly. Bruce had to fight all comers and all styles and his reputation preceeds him, the fact that he doesnt have a record of 'matches' is a testament to the type of fighter he was.


I didn't ask you if he was "pure" fighter (whatever that is), I asked you what makes you think he's a great fighter? You can't just say he's athletic. Many athletic people are horrible fighters. There's no evidence and no track record indicating he was great fighter. In fact, there's no evidence indicating that he was even a decent fighter, much less, the greatest fighter. There's no there there.



shadow_dragon said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee#Challengers_on_the_set - that should answer your query. I win.


As I said, the only fights we've heard of is when he fights some schmuck off the streets, which is filtered through testimony the testimony of his freinds, and not through video footage. So he allegedly beats up one movie extra/actor, and now he's the greatest fighter of all time? You have a ridiculously low standard for what makes up a great fighter, much less again, the greatest fighter.


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## GMW

I'm mixed on this.

I feel like I should say any good MMA fighter now would beat him, but then I read about the feats he could do, and the people who idiolized him and it seems like he would stomp anyone today. His hand and body speed make me think no one could touch him.


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## joppp

GMW said:


> I'm mixed on this.
> 
> I feel like I should say any good MMA fighter now would beat him, but then I read about the feats he could do, and the people who idiolized him and it seems like he would stomp anyone today. His hand and body speed make me think no one could touch him.


If you are not ironic now I will cry, man


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## HeavyRob

joppp said:


> But WHAT HAS HE DONE?


He opened his own school. Taught for years. Developed Jeet Kune Do (like a verry basic MMA). Dislocated a dude's shoulder when he punched him.

I dunno man, he's got a pretty decent resume. I suggest you read a little more before you go bashing Bruce. And don't get on the whole "he-was-a-showman-only" train. He competed in a ton of martial arts tournaments.


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## GMW

joppp said:


> If you are not ironic now I will cry, man


I guess it's because I have no basis to judge his skills off. With him all I hear are statistics and numbers which sound incredible, and seemingly put him above virtually everyone else, but I don't have other statistics to compare modern fighters too.


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## joppp

GMW said:


> I guess it's because I have no basis to judge his skills off. With him all I hear are statistics and numbers which sound incredible, and seemingly put him above virtually everyone else, but I don't have other statistics to compare modern fighters too.


ah ok you mean like that. Well, I aknowledge he had an amazing p4p strength, but for him to beat a HW like Big Foot, Fedor or Sylvia sounds unbelievable!

Just never underestimate the hype that press and "documentation" (i.e. things that are based on eye witnesses) creates.



HeavyRob said:


> He opened his own school. Taught for years. Developed Jeet Kune Do (like a verry basic MMA). Dislocated a dude's shoulder when he punched him.
> 
> I dunno man, he's got a pretty decent resume. I suggest you read a little more before you go bashing Bruce. And don't get on the whole "he-was-a-showman-only" train. He competed in a ton of martial arts tournaments.


Sorry, didn't mean to completely Bash Lee or something  He was a good Martial artist for sure!


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## GMW

joppp said:


> ah ok you mean like that. Well, I aknowledge he had an amazing p4p strength, but for him to beat a HW like Big Foot, Fedor or Sylvia sounds unbelievable!
> 
> Just never underestimate the hype that press and "documentation" (i.e. things that are based on eye witnesses) creates.
> 
> !


Well I don't see him beating Fedor or anything, but competing at 135 as some claim doesn't sound absurdly outlandish to me.


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## Iuanes

I would say of any non-mma fighters would people say would dominate today, Bruce Lee is easily the most credible.

I don't think the question people should ask if Bruce Lee, as his style was in his lifetime, could compete in MMA today, because its really making judgements from very little information. The more productive question how would he compete if he grew up with the ascension of MMA in his physical prime? This is looking at who was, not how he fought.

Personally, I think he was of the mental attitude and physical pedigree that he would have the desire to learn effective techniques and the ability to master them, as well as the inventiveness to modulate tradition kung fu forms into MMA. I think in this scenario he would be at least dominant in his weight class, and be able to compete in others as well.


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## SideWays222

Lol you serious???

I think Scott Blevins AKA child rapist might beat up brucelee..... or not XD


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## joppp

GMW said:


> Well I don't see him beating Fedor or anything, but competing at 135 as some claim doesn't sound absurdly outlandish to me.


Well, I could give you that! And he wasn't totally unfamiliar with the ground game as far as I know...


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## lhbffan

li was wushu forms champ not a fighter.


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## lhbffan

oops wrong page.
Lee learned who & what he was getting into. He also fought a judoist or 2 that would surely have regreted putting their hands upon him.


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## TheNegation

lhbffan said:


> oops wrong page.
> Lee learned who & what he was getting into. He also fought a judoist or 2 that would surely have regreted putting their hands upon him.


No he didn't. Although I probably shouldn't take the misconceptions of someone who calls Judoka judoists seriously enough to reply to them.


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## lhbffan

not up to much of Japanese lingo bc I had read the (incorrect?) term elsewhere. But am I to understand that Bruce only faced karate practitioners?


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## kay_o_ken

this is the lamest argument of all time, bruce lee, as badass as he is, would not stand a chance against tons of todays mma fighters, if you cant see this then you need to familiarize yourself with the sport of mma


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## lhbffan

I think that Bruce Lee was always developing and would dominate in this sport as the Bantamweight champion.


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## Wookie

Bruce Lee would have done all right, his whole style was about adapting to the other persons weakness. He would have had a badass gameplan for every fight and he was lightning quick. He would have laid waste to a lot of fighters. Don't think that he would have gotten dominated because he stuck to one style because he would have adapted as the sport progressed.


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## Breadfan

I'm pretty sure that if Bruce Lee and JKD were that rediculously awesome in a UFC Style fight, There would be more JKD Fighters in UFC. I'm not knocking the style at all, but I hardly see any JKD fighters in UFC because of the limitations. 

Doesn't JKD use hair pulling and groin strikes and small digit manipulations and stuff all the time?


P.S. Bruce is a legend, but he'd get boofed by someone like Miguel Torres


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## TheNegation

lhbffan said:


> not up to much of Japanese lingo bc I had read the (incorrect?) term elsewhere. But am I to understand that Bruce only faced karate practitioners?


Bruce Lee never faced anyone except one other Kung Fu representative. And that was a crappy TMA and Lee couldn't even decisively win that fight.

Lee has zero fighting credentials, sorry to have to be the one to break that to you. He was an actor, not an athlete.


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## xeberus

TheNegation said:


> Bruce Lee never faced anyone except one other Kung Fu representative. And that was a crappy TMA and Lee couldn't even decisively win that fight.
> 
> Lee has zero fighting credentials, sorry to have to be the one to break that to you. He was an actor, not an athlete.


RAWR!

These are a few of the fights that Bruce participated in the ring and out.

1958:
vs. Gary Elms in a tournament. (Won) 
1958 or 1959:
Against Chung on a rooftop in Hong Kong. (Won in 2nd Round) 
1960 - Seattle:
Bruce backfisted a guy and busted his nose after Bruce saw him harrassing a Chinese Girl. Bruce was taking a walk. This fight was witnessed by James DeMile. 
1960 or 1961:
vs. Uechi. (Won in 10 seconds) 
Summer 1963 - Hong Kong:
Bruce snapped a low kick to a punk's shin after the punk and his friend harrassed him during an evening stroll. 

From: http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~chenj/brucelee/bruce_faq.html

But you are totally right. He had very little actual fights with other martial artists. I could just walk around and kick the shit out of random dudes to


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## TheNegation

lhbffan said:


> not up to much of Japanese lingo bc I had read the (incorrect?) term elsewhere. But am I to understand that Bruce only faced karate practitioners?


The Gary Elms one is the only slightly legit one. And that was boxing.

And yeah, anyone who even trains physically without even trianing martial arts can go around beating normal untrained people in street fights. That doesn't count hah.


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## lhbffan

There doesn't seem to be a lot of detail of ranges or lack there of in the way of judoka. I guess I need more info about & if any from Jesse Raymond Glover.


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## John T

*Bruce Lee Wud win his own weight*

Great topic, I think Bruce Lee would win his own weight class. But unlike the movies I think a bigger stronger man, could over power him and ground and pound him. I would like to see a fight between Bruce Lee and Chuck Liddel..it would be very entertaining. If you have time please check out <a href='http://www.thaipads.net'>thai pads</a> blog


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## jcal

I just ran across this thread and find the topic hillarious. Bruce Lee was a martial artist and a good one for the times but back in his day with chuck norris and all the other famous martial arts guys, they all considered one man to be the absolute toughest his name was Gene Lebelle. Back then chuck was asked who was the baddest man and he said Lebelle hands down


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## Dragon-Ninja

Bruce lee has extreme fury. the last thing he'd do is give up. he is a master and anyone who challenges Bruce lee is dead cause not only does he have extreme fury, wild speed and superior strength. he has a reputation to up hold so yea. the winner would be BRUCE LEE.


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## NastyNinja

If bruce lee was 25 and lived during this time and got into fighting the way he did, yes he would be a very strong fighter, but his style and the way he fought would not work now

Bruce was far stronger then most fighters because of his focus, if he was living today at a young age and was trainning in MMA he would be a very big contender in the UFC, his speed alone would win fights till he got to the area of good fighters.

He has speed/focus/heart/brains... Trainning in a fighting form require all this and he was WAY above average...

So I say if he was born and raised like the guys we are putting him up against YES he would be a big moutain for any MMA figher

Bringing him from his day to now and putting him in a ring, he would be point deducted or double legged into a basic GnP or he will roll over and get rear naked.

Both have good points, It is the time frame you are looking at.


----------



## jcal

With no muaythai or wrestling or bjj experience bruce would get crushed by any mma fighter and he wouldnt have to be a great one either, he could walk into any mma gym and somebody unknown would smash him, Bruce Lee? Jeet kun do? come on get real. look at what happenened to ron van Clief and that was by a one dimensional Royce gracie. Did he ever even have a real fight or fight profesionally like Norris? or was he just Kado from the green hornet:sarcastic12: None of those guys back in the day could last 5 minutes with Gene Lebell.


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## BrutalKO

*Bruce Lee vs. a UFC fighter??....no comparison...*

...Bruce Lee was a legend not only for his fighting ability but mostly for his Philosophy of the Martial Arts itself. From that Philosophy standpoint, nobody even came close to how he even approached fighting. He saw it as an art, or form of expression and a way of the human mind more than of anything else. That's what made him so special.
...In his movies, he used Techniques and Psychology that Martial Artists everywhere could barely get a grasp of the concepts. Bruce did a lot of improvising in many fight scenes as well. To compare him to a UFC fighter is like comparing Apples to Oranges. Bruce was on a different plain far beyond any conventional martial artist. I seriously doubt any MMA fighter could have beaten him.


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## Dragon-Ninja

BrutalKO said:


> ...Bruce Lee was a legend not only for his fighting ability but mostly for his Philosophy of the Martial Arts itself. From that Philosophy standpoint, nobody even came close to how he even approached fighting. He saw it as an art, or form of expression and a way of the human mind more than of anything else. That's what made him so special.
> ...In his movies, he used Techniques and Psychology that Martial Artists everywhere could barely get a grasp of the concepts. Bruce did a lot of improvising in many fight scenes as well. To compare him to a UFC fighter is like comparing Apples to Oranges. Bruce was on a different plain far beyond any conventional martial artist. I seriously doubt any MMA fighter could have beaten him.



what that guy said:thumbsup:


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## xeberus

I don't understand how anyone could think he would even be able to beat mediocre fighters in the ufc. 

I mea bruce lee didn't really have that many fights, he was great at the time compared to his competition which also would have been easily beaten by almost any martial artist of today. And don't think for a moment bruce was un beaten in his hand full of fights in his life, in 1961 when bruce lee was 21 years old he got his ass kicked by a karate master yoichi nakachi.


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## Ape City

Dragon-Ninja said:


> what that guy said:thumbsup:


...is complete garbage.


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## michelangelo

There is zero basis either for the initial comparison or for subsequent criticisms of the initial comparison.

Bruce Lee was an actor, philosopher, student and teacher of "mixed" martial arts, while today's practitioners are just that: practitioners.

I appreciate both, and to trash either the actor or today's mixed martial artists is just silly. It's not either/or here.


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## Liddellianenko

Ape City said:


> ...is complete garbage.


lol, what this guy said ^.


----------



## tecnotut

Liddellianenko said:


> lol, what this guy said ^.


I 37th that.


----------



## wukkadb

shadow_dragon said:


> thanks for the quick reply kamikaze145. I'm not familiar with this Torres character however fighting does not evolve, only fighters evolve. The main aim of fighting now is the same as it was thousands of years ago and Bruce was the best ever. Without more info about this torres guy I can't imagine him beating the master


No, just... no.


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## BrutalKO

Ape City said:


> ...is complete garbage.


...I quoted things directly from a couple of books that I've read on Bruce Lee. Things about other martial artists who've trained & sparred with him back in his early 20's. Men who have studied the arts for decades praised Lee on inventing his own theories and his creating his own fighting style. The one inch punch is a true theory that Lee created and it worked. Given only 1 inch of space between his fist and the other person, he displaced a 6 foot man knocking him back 3 feet. I suppose whatever was written on him was garbage? True testimony from people who knew him personally? Please go to a library and read a book instead of insulting someone who happens to know the truth.


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## xeberus

BrutalKO said:


> ...I quoted things directly from a couple of books that I've read on Bruce Lee. Things about other martial artists who've trained & sparred with him back in his early 20's. Men who have studied the arts for decades praised Lee on inventing his own theories and his creating his own fighting style. The one inch punch is a true theory that Lee created and it worked. Given only 1 inch of space between his fist and the other person, he displaced a 6 foot man knocking him back 3 feet. I suppose whatever was written on him was garbage? True testimony from people who knew him personally? Please go to a library and read a book instead of insulting someone who happens to know the truth.


The problem is that fighting has evolved immensely in the past 20 years. In fact the greatest fighters 20 years ago would be brutally demolished by just mediocre fighters of today. Bruce never even had a fair chance, no one from his time would.


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## TheNegation

BrutalKO said:


> ...I quoted things directly from a couple of books that I've read on Bruce Lee. Things about other martial artists who've trained & sparred with him back in his early 20's. Men who have studied the arts for decades praised Lee on inventing his own theories and his creating his own fighting style. The one inch punch is a true theory that Lee created and it worked. Given only 1 inch of space between his fist and the other person, he displaced a 6 foot man knocking him back 3 feet. I suppose whatever was written on him was garbage? True testimony from people who knew him personally? Please go to a library and read a book instead of insulting someone who happens to know the truth.


Not only do you clearly not know anything about MMA, you haven't even got the parts on Bruce Lee right. Your posts are a joke, and you might want to go read those books again.


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## SideWays222

Lets have Chuck Norris fight a below average fighter of today and see how he fares. Norris fought Bruce Lee a couple of times at tournament's and even though Bruce Lee always won i think having Chuck fighting someone whos terrible will show you how much fighters have evolved since then. To think Bruce Lee can beat anyone decent today is nothing more then Silly/Naive.


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## Ape City

BrutalKO said:


> ...I quoted things directly from a couple of books that I've read on Bruce Lee. Things about other martial artists who've trained & sparred with him back in his early 20's. Men who have studied the arts for decades praised Lee on inventing his own theories and his creating his own fighting style. The one inch punch is a true theory that Lee created and it worked. Given only 1 inch of space between his fist and the other person, he displaced a 6 foot man knocking him back 3 feet. I suppose whatever was written on him was garbage? True testimony from people who knew him personally? Please go to a library and read a book instead of insulting someone who happens to know the truth.



Did you know that Ali was an amazing boxer? The best ever!!!11 I went the library and there was like, this book, and I read it! 

It told me that Ali was ahead of his time, an absolute genius who was so much faster than everyone else! All his coaches and sparring partners said he was the best ever.

He even invented the 'float like a butterfly, sting like a bee' technique. He knocked so many people out with his quick hands and head movement.

I thought boxers today had evolved, but man was I wrong! Ali was the best ever, he was so dominate those decades ago it is obvious he would destroy everyone now!

This is true testimony from people that knew Ali! He was the best evaaaa~~!!!!1111









Like for real dude? Tell me to go read a book about Bruce Lee? 

Let's go over what you said (cause it is a bunch of random, useless facts that prove nothing about how he would fair today):

You qouted things from other martial artists who sparred with him in the 20s? What the hell does that prove about how he would fair today, decades later. Give me a freaking break. 
*
If I invented television I am a genius for that time period. It doesn't mean my invention is still relevant now. It also doesn't mean I would be good at inventing things 90 years in the future; the game would have passed me by* 

Bruce may have helped make mma what it is today, but that doesn't mean his technique is relevant anymore, or that he was anywhere near the current skill level of ma fighters.


Then you give some random example of a technique not even used in MMA today as a reason why he would beat current top mma fighters? Jeez you need to learn how to make supporting arguements. How does that have any relation to doing well in an mma fight? He invented a technique? So what? If I invent a gimmicky attack that noone 50 years from now will ever use does that make me a good fighter 50 years from now? No logic at all.


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## js1316

These threads are so stupid...... :bye02:


----------



## chuck fan (russ)

Bruce Lee is a showbiz martial artist it all looks good yeah but thats all it is. And yeah if you was somebody who knew something about mma I could get angry but you aren't so basically mma fighters train to do damage and Bruce Lee trains to show off and do fancy tricks but not effective in a fight.


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## BrutalKO

TheNegation said:


> Not only do you clearly not know anything about MMA, you haven't even got the parts on Bruce Lee right. Your posts are a joke, and you might want to go read those books again.


...Bro...insulting my quote was really uncalled for. I think the biggest joke here is that you lack respect for others statements. You need to grow up. Jealously can be a real bitch sometimes.


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## TheNegation

Uhhh, jealously?:confused02:


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## swpthleg

NO NO NO NO NO. please don't guys. PLEASE stay on topic and don't let it degenerate, if only to humor me.


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## TheNegation

Too late. This thread is now about


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## _RIVAL_

And the swine flu.


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## Ape City

BrutalKO said:


> ...Bro...insulting my quote was really uncalled for. I think the biggest joke here is that you lack respect for others statements. You need to grow up. Jealously can be a real bitch sometimes.


Why don't you respond to my arguement?

I don't think you are looking at this with any logic.


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## swpthleg

P*ssy sandwich. That's a completely different thread. Somebody make it happen.


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## jbritt

I just had this debate with my WHOLE english class, especially the people who don't know what the **** they are talking about. Everyone saying that Lee would kill anyone in the world. Get's you really frustrated.


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## IronMan

This is a dumb thread, and here's why:

Because we're talking about *any* UFC fighter.

Could Bruce Lee beat the holy hell out of Luke Cummo, or Thiago Tavares, or Aaron Reilly? All valid questions.

Could Bruce Lee beat B.J. Penn? It'd be an interesting debate.

But we're talking about Bruce Lee fighting a hypothetical paradigm of a fighter, and no such fighter exists. Every fighter has quirks in his game (even the most generic or the most apparently complete) that make a matchup with any other fighter (Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris or someone who fights in the cage regularly) interesting.

Bruce Lee vs. B.J. Penn is an entirely different debate than Bruce Lee vs. Anderson Silva. It's also different than Bruce Lee vs. Brock Lesnar or Shane Carwin or Gabe Gonzaga.

Bruce Lee was an incredible martial artist. I don't consider him the greatest of all time, but as someone who grew up in Oakland, where he's considered a god, I have incredible respect for his abilities, and his philosophies (which predicted the advent of MMA and contributed to it a great deal).

That said, I don't think Bruce Lee, the way he fought in the 60s and 70s would win a bout in the UFC today against a top fighter.

But if Bruce Lee were alive today, he wouldn't fight the same way he did in the 60s or 70s.

It's like asking "would Ali have beaten Mike Tyson?"

I don't know. I don't think the rope-a-dope would have been nearly as effective, but that's because everyone knew what it was. I also don't think Ali would have been the same fighter, if he was training in the same era as Tyson.

We can have a debate about the abstracts of Bruce Lee's philosophy and the different techniques he used that we can learn from. At the end of the day, we never saw Bruce Lee try and fight a wrestler like Tyson Griffin or Sean Sherk, and we never saw him fight an elusive striker like Lyoto, so there's not really enough data to make a judgment on. Of course, that's my opinion, but I happen to think it's right.


----------



## egangster

*Hahaha*



kamikaze145 said:


> A bruce lee could defeat any mma fighter thread.....I have never seen anything like this :thumbsdown:
> 
> Seriously, Miguel Torres is the best 135 pounder and as much of a beast Bruce was fighting has evolved so much I think Torres would light him up. In an mma fight.


Your crazy man,p4p is,Anderson,or GSP or,Fedor,Torres if he beat another guy not by decision then yes he could be P4P,but and there is no way he could beat Lee.Lee is the best fighter who ever walked on earth!!


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## HeavyRob

let. this. thread. die.


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## swpthleg

I don't think I can close it. I'm a leave that up to one of the blue men.


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## jlc93ca

Dont you guys think that maybe Bruce Lee would be in MMA today because he goes for the best martial art. He would just evolve hes own technique he made to make it better, But if he used his original technique with no changes when MMA came out i have to say he would lose but. Im pretty sure he would adapt his fighting skills if he saw this MMA.


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## Ciaran

Bruce Lee was talented at JKD, and given his vast knowledge and physical qualities that he used in fighting he could become a great mma fighter.

However he would need a year or so training before he could compete with the likes of Torres


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## Silly_Mo

Bruce Lee beat a dude with a armbar in Enter the Dragon. In fact that was in a MMA match they had at the beginning of the movie. Bruce Lee would beat anybody in his weight class in mma today. Bruce Lee was a Kung Fu master and would eventually kill somebody in the ring with a kick or a punch. When a fighter of that caliber fights in mixed martial arts....you will know it.


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## jcal

Ciaran said:


> .
> 
> However he would need a year or so training before he could compete with the likes of Torres


I would say he would need at least 5 years to even think about competing with Torres



Silly_Mo said:


> Bruce Lee beat a dude with a armbar in Enter the Dragon. In fact that was in a MMA match they had at the beginning of the movie. Bruce Lee would beat anybody in his weight class in mma today. Bruce Lee was a Kung Fu master and would eventually kill somebody in the ring with a kick or a punch. When a fighter of that caliber fights in mixed martial arts....you will know it.


Please say your joking, he had no special powers. there are many fighters in mma who have way more experience than Lee, and are in better physical condition too. Hell he didnt even fight it was all theory.


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## Silly_Mo

Are you serious. Watch Dragon...the Bruce Lee Story (a true story) and tell me if he fought. Better yet read the book. Bruce Lee was the truth fool....he turned fighting into an EFFECTIVE artform.


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## jcal

Since we are talking about mma , how good does jeet kun do play into it I would say0% but back when there was no mma and there were only pure styles jeet kun do fared no better, as a matter of fact ive never seen a jeet kun do practicioner win a fight in my life. And bruce learned any submission at all from judo gene lebelle, who was the real deal. Just for shits and giggles tell me what bruce would do to win a fight with lets say Uriah Faber, how would he beat him for example, what would his strategy be seeing Bruce had virtually no grappling experience :confused03:


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## tecnotut

Silly_Mo said:


> Are you serious. Watch Dragon...the Bruce Lee Story (a true story) and tell me if he fought. Better yet read the book. Bruce Lee was the truth fool....he turned fighting into an EFFECTIVE artform.


Show me one professional tournament Bruce Lee won. No, even better --just show me one REAL freakin' Bruce Lee fight. Otherwise, shut the **** up.


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## roy7557

I love listening to listening to this stuff...in the end its about training and athletics. Take any two guys give them the same amount and level of training (assuming they are on equal terms in technique and all that) and the better athlete wins.

Would Bruce Lee....Michael Vick....Lebron James..whoever be a good MMA fighter....train them like the best ones and yes they would be pretty damn good. Anyone who has been in a real fight knows that unless you are way better technically - and even then - you can't do much with a guy who is vastly stronger...faster...or just a bigger badass - look at Brock.

Would Mike Tyson be a good MMA fighter...probably not...but train him like one and guys in his weight class are fucked.

Why does gsp win...cause he's so technically sound...no..the other guys are trying to do the same thing he just gets there first..take away his some of his naturally given athletic ability and hes matt sera

fell free to pick apart the argument based on small technicalities but the main point is the same. Awesome athletes (Bruce Lee was a bad example) would be awesome mma fighters if they got the same training.


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## jcal

roy7557 said:


> I love listening to listening to this stuff...in the end its about training and athletics. Take any two guys give them the same amount and level of training (assuming they are on equal terms in technique and all that) and the better athlete wins.
> 
> Would Bruce Lee....Michael Vick....Lebron James..whoever be a good MMA fighter....train them like the best ones and yes they would be pretty damn good. Anyone who has been in a real fight knows that unless you are way better technically - and even then - you can't do much with a guy who is vastly stronger...faster...or just a bigger badass - look at Brock.
> 
> Would Mike Tyson be a good MMA fighter...probably not...but train him like one and guys in his weight class are fucked.
> 
> Why does gsp win...cause he's so technically sound...no..the other guys are trying to do the same thing he just gets there first..take away his some of his naturally given athletic ability and hes matt sera
> 
> fell free to pick apart the argument based on small technicalities but the main point is the same. Awesome athletes (Bruce Lee was a bad example) would be awesome mma fighters if they got the same training.


your completely right, but I think the argument was Bruce as is, not Bruce that trained mma


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## Maverick417

i am gonna be a hypocrit for posting in this but...

1.bruce lee left china due to legal problems bc his cocky teenage mindset of being a child actor caused him to accept any challenge that a street fighter threw at him.
so to say he was never in a fight is inaccurate.

2.who ever said a jeet kun do practiciner never won anyfight.....the literal translation for jeet kun do is "using no way as way" One of bruces quotes was Anyone arguing the about the style of Jeet kun do has abvouisly missed the point. it was simply a new idea of mixing multiple art forms. So all the so called Jeet Kun Do Practicioners are wrong in the fact of claiming jeet kun do as a style. its like some group of people claiming to be anarchiests, bc the base idea of that is no orginization in anyway. 

3.bruce lee never fought in the ufc and never fought anyone who used mixed martial arts.....ya ya we know and have heard it a million times. He was not the greatest ever, maybe not even the best in his lifetime. he was just the first to look at it in new way and was open to go against tradition for improvement. His best contribution was to bring it to hollywood in the USA launching the american Martial Arts Movement.

So people need to quit making the same stupid arguements that are the same in every Bruce vs the world threads.


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## The Horticulturist

I can't believe this thread is still alive. Bruce Lee is long dead, and someday all of his fans will be too.:bye02:


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## frank boogie

you have to give bruce respect. if he trained mma, he would do well because he was dedicated and a gifted athlete


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## Dylanfsd

simple thread. ive heard people call him the godfather of mma.. but is there anyone who could have really taken him? I cant really think of anyone on the ufc roster who would have been able to defeat him..


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## Ground'N'Pound5

well bruce lee was pretty awesome in the movies and junk but its hard to tell if he could have been a fighter..... his moves were pretty cool but im not sure it would work in a cage lol


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## Evil Ira

I can think of a lot of people in the UFC roster who could have a chance at beating him.

Martial Arts, and Mixed Martial Arts has evolved so much since it's creation. Bruce was just one of the first fighters to utilise different Martial Arts, and mix them into one big style.

Ben Saunders uses Jeet Kune Do, the style created by Bruce.


----------



## Breadfan

All due respect, but I don't see many TKD fighters in the cage. I'm sure Bruce Lee would have done okay in his time, but at this point in MMA He would be behind in the evolution of MMA


----------



## mmamasta

Although you're right that it's not talked about alot, I would have to agree that Bruce Lee was the grandfather of mma. I say this because he was the first martial artist who really wanted to create a style that was a marriage of all the best styles, and more specifically a style that would be very useful in real-life scenarios. In fact, his choice to meld together various forms of martial arts into jeet kune do was arguably what got him killed, and is definitely why he was outcast by the entire martial arts community (well that, and that he had an open invitation to anyone to beat him in his style, and no one could).

I believe that jeet june do is (in my opinion!) the best martial art out there for real-life use, BUT, no SINGLE martial art is going to survive in the ring (and don't give me that Machida Karate crap, yes he uses karate, but not JUST karate).

I do want to finish by saying I remember a fighter (I think in either WEC or ELITE XC) that actually fought with a primarialy jeet kune do style, and he did really well. But I cannot remember his name, or what happened to him.


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## The Horticulturist

If there were org's back then, he could have been p4p the best (He likely was p4p the best in the world at fighting). I'm not going to go on and on for a long since this thread has been done to death, but put the same guy in there with fighters of today, and he's going to lose without the use of movie magic.


----------



## diablo5597

I think he would probably beat a lot of the fighters in the UFC in the stand up, but i don't know anything about his wrestling or submissions game.


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## VolcomX311

Tank Abbot claimed JKD :shame01:


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## xeberus

Well bruce lee was not undefeated, I believe he was beaten twice. And I think any top 10 fighter in any weight class in the UFC would completely demolish bruce lee. 

The difference between fighting then and fighting now it much like technology then and technology now.


----------



## kamikaze145

Lots of guys in his weight would beat him in an mma fight now. He was a great athlete and a smart guy so im sure if he was around today and wanted to compete in mma he would have done really well, but people have to overlook this mythological status he has, he was just a man. Yes I am a fan of his too, he was my idol as a child but he could have got KO'd or submitted or decisioned just like anyone else.


----------



## Davisty69

My opinion is this. If you are talking about taking BL then, and putting him in the cage now with the skills he had then, then I would say he would definitely get beat by the top guys due to natural and necessary evolution of the sport.

However, If you are talking about taking him, and then letting him evolve and train the way the sport is now, then I think that he would be like A. Silva in his class. He was incredibly fast, accurate, and powerful. Sounds like Silva to me in a lot of ways.


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## Dylanfsd

I meant in modern time (Its not like he would be 1 dimensional..) but yeah, interesting stuff. MMA wasnt around when Bruce Lee was alive, right?


----------



## jasvll

http://www.mmaforum.com/mma-smacktalk/53295-bruce-lee-vs-any-ufc-fighter.html


----------



## HCbreaker

Godfather of MMA? He isn't even close. Mixed Martial Arts is as old as Greco-Roman Wrestling. Most people don't know, but Pankration was the first form of MMA practiced in ancient Greece, alongside wrestling. Many warriors participated, and there was grappling aswell as striking, and fights lasted until a participant was either crippled or dead.

So if anything, the godfather of MMA is the one who thought of this art. No such person is recorded, but the undisputed champion of that art was a Greek by the name of Dioxippus. He was so skilled at fighting that he could take on multiple armored soldiers (who had swords) and win.

As for fighting in today's fighting culture, I believe Bruce Lee is intelligent enough to evolve and become a great fighter, but as it stands he would be taken down by most fighters and pounded out, as he is unfamiliar with that style of fighting.


----------



## Benge

Dylanfsd said:


> MMA wasnt around when Bruce Lee was alive, right?


Bruce Lee created MMA! raise01: Well, he did not exactly name it, but he basically provided the blue print for what MMA would become. Taking everything unnecessary and throwing it out, only keeping what was effective, also allowing your body a sense of freedom to adapt automatically, thus creating Jeet Kun Do. 

Also, a lot of ignorant people believe he was just an actor, when in actuality he was a superb martial artist who THEN entered the movie industry.

I suggest reading his auto/biography or *AT LEAST* watching the movie _Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story_.



HCbreaker said:


> *Most people don't know*, but Pankration was the first form of MMA practiced in ancient Greece, alongside wrestling.


If by "most people" you are referring to the general public and UFC fans, then, yes. Otherwise this is common knowledge, if not dogma, to MMA fans.


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## BrutalKO

...Bas Rutten "I think Bruce Lee would not do well at first in today's Mixed Martial Arts. No question he would be a fast learner and he would have become a very good fighter".
...The opening fight scene in Enter The Dragon (1973), Lee wins the tournament match using strikes, sweeps, judo throws, (even acrobats) and finishes his opponent with an armbar. (Even though the armbar is incorrect, the fighter taps out. That is a mixture of the Martial Arts...thus MMA. Bruce arguably started it, or at least brought it to the big screen.


----------



## The Don

You all have some good points.. and as someone pointed out earlier the Greeks technically created MMA with Pankration which was a mixture of grappling and striking. Bruce can be credited for bringing it into the modern Era... 

How he would fare in todays MMA world... In his weight class I think he would be a dominant figure.. His striking would be nearly unmatched in all weight classes.. his ground game more then like would be on par as well.. While he may not overtly trained it. Bruce was learning grappling.. Jeet Kun Do was an unfinished art form. What peopel always fail to take into this debate is the way Bruce Lee trained and his philosophies on training.. So I think if he were around as MMA in its current form developed Bruce would be a dominate fighter with a record that would be unmatched.. I'd even give him the edge against a lot of larger opponents as well dude to his speed and strength for a man much smaller in physical stature.


----------



## HCbreaker

The Don said:


> You all have some good points.. and as someone pointed out earlier the Greeks technically created MMA with Pankration which was a mixture of grappling and striking. Bruce can be credited for bringing it into the modern Era...
> 
> How he would fare in todays MMA world... In his weight class I think he would be a dominant figure.. His striking would be nearly unmatched in all weight classes.. his ground game more then like would be on par as well.. While he may not overtly trained it. Bruce was learning grappling.. Jeet Kun Do was an unfinished art form. What peopel always fail to take into this debate is the way Bruce Lee trained and his philosophies on training.. So I think if he were around as MMA in its current form developed Bruce would be a dominate fighter with a record that would be unmatched.. I'd even give him the edge against a lot of larger opponents as well dude to his speed and strength for a man much smaller in physical stature.


While I agree that his striking would be rather good, i disagree that his ground game would be on par. Sure, we've all "trained" grappling in some form, but he was primarily a stand-up fighter, and like the rest of us who wrestled in middle school at some point, could not touch an NCAA champion or a BJJ black belt in the ground department. I strongly believe he would be vastly outmatched on the ground.

I also don't think he would do well against a boxer. None of the Asian martial arts teach their disciples to dodge, bob, weave, slip and in most cases even block punches. That is attributed mostly to boxing and to a certain degree, muay thai. What he strove to create in Jeet Kune Do was simple, effective movements with little flair and no filler. Boiled down, that is exactly what boxing is. He would essentially be out of his game if faced with a good boxer, and would not do well against one in my opinion.

To do an honest analysis, one has to realize Bruce Lee was, for sure, a good martial artist, but his bread and butter was acting and he was in fact, not a god . He had no idea back then how many disciplines people know in modern MMA and how well-rounded fighters would get.


----------



## Jesy Blue

so it seems like Bruce's walk around weight was about 160lbs, so cutting properly, he'd be a Featherweight. top competition in that division is Mike Brown, Urijah Faber and Jens Pulver.
how do you all think he'd fair against the likes of them with the modern day all around trainings?


----------



## Breadfan

Well, he definitely knew his trainings well, and was obviously adaptable (hence his creating of a martial art or practice)

I think he'd do rather well given time to adapt and train. I don't really know how to answer questions like this, because I can't just say "Bruce Lee first round TKO" but I know he would hold his own


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## RushFan

I am unable to produce a sufficiently stupid response to contribute to this thread.


----------



## TraMaI

If Bruce was given the opportunity to continue to evolve his fighting style over the years he would've wrecked anyone in the UFC including Brock >:[ Okay, maybe not Brock, but probably anyone from 135 (his weight) up to 155 and maybe 170. I'm not sure if anyone here knows about what his work ethic was, but the man was absolutely insane. He probably worked out 16 hours a day every day through out his entire career. He used to work out as he was performing menial tasks about his house. When he was making business calls, he would lift weights. When he was reading abuot martial arts, he would lift. Etc. The man was amazing abuot his work ethic and knew more about martial arts than I could ever hope to. A true genius of the sport. GIven the chance to evolve with the likes of BJJ (his Judo was already phenominal) and wrestling I think he would've done nothing but destroy other fighters. 

If you're talking about "In his prime", then I still think he'd be a hell of a lot of fighters.


----------



## Drogo

He was an excellent striker, he would get crushed by basically anyone with a decent ground game today. Relative to the rest of the world at the time he was great. Given modern training in wrestling and BJJ how would he do? Who knows, that is impossible speculation.

People are really over rating him here, as pointed out he in no way invented MMA, he just got it onto the movie screen and even then it wasn't MMA, it was virtually striking only. How can you guys think a pure striker is going to beat the wrestlers and BJJ experts in MMA? They'd break him in half in two minutes. He did MMA a valuable service by popularizing it but lets be realistic here.


----------



## Servatose

TraMaI said:


> If Bruce was given the opportunity to continue to evolve his fighting style over the years he would've wrecked anyone in the UFC including Brock >:[ Okay, maybe not Brock, but probably anyone from 135 (his weight) up to 155 and maybe 170. I'm not sure if anyone here knows about what his work ethic was, but the man was absolutely insane. He probably worked out 16 hours a day every day through out his entire career. He used to work out as he was performing menial tasks about his house. When he was making business calls, he would lift weights. When he was reading abuot martial arts, he would lift. Etc. The man was amazing abuot his work ethic and knew more about martial arts than I could ever hope to. A true genius of the sport. GIven the chance to evolve with the likes of BJJ (his Judo was already phenominal) and wrestling I think he would've done nothing but destroy other fighters.
> 
> If you're talking about "In his prime", then I still think he'd be a hell of a lot of fighters.


This. It really saddens me how uneducated most of the MMA community are about Bruce Lee. I've even read posts here where some people think he was simply an actor. Bruce Lee's life was martial arts, his training regimen as well as his work ethic can hardly be compared to a lot of athletes of today. Bruce Lee's flexibility and strength was off the charts, especially considering his size. 

One can only assume that due to his mentality he would have evolved with martial arts. I think Lee would've been in the P4P discussions if he were young enough to compete professionally today, and of course still alive.


----------



## BrutalKO

...Good points. I had my ass chewed a while back for defending Bruce saying that he would be a great MMA fighter if he was in his prime today. Just imagine what Greg Jackson could do with him in 6 or 8 months of training.
...The other dragon, Lyoto Machida, would be a good representation of Bruce Lee in today's MMA.

*"Let's just put it this way. I have no fear of the opponent in front of me. I'm very self-sufficient. They do not bother me. Should I fight. Should I do anything, I have made up my mind and that's it baby. You better kill me before". Bruce Lee*


----------



## jasvll

HCbreaker said:


> As for fighting in today's fighting culture, I believe Bruce Lee is intelligent enough to evolve and become a great fighter, but as it stands he would be taken down by most fighters and pounded out, as he is unfamiliar with that style of fighting.


Erroneous. He would Judo the gentleman before choking him out.


----------



## HCbreaker

jasvll said:


> Erroneous. He would Judo the gentleman before choking him out.


As good a movie as that is, it is just that, a movie. I stand by my statement. Put him against any MMA with a college wrestling background, and he would lose 9/10 times.


----------



## jasvll

HCbreaker said:


> As good a movie as that is, it is just that, a movie. I stand by my statement. Put him against any MMA with a college wrestling background, and he would lose 9/10 times.


Imposserous Rhinoceros.


----------



## mrmyz

I think any one of the BJJ practitioners could have taken him, his understanding of ground fighting was very limited.


----------



## The Don

HCbreaker said:


> While I agree that his striking would be rather good, i disagree that his ground game would be on par. Sure, we've all "trained" grappling in some form, but he was primarily a stand-up fighter, and like the rest of us who wrestled in middle school at some point, could not touch an NCAA champion or a BJJ black belt in the ground department. I strongly believe he would be vastly outmatched on the ground.
> 
> I also don't think he would do well against a boxer. None of the Asian martial arts teach their disciples to dodge, bob, weave, slip and in most cases even block punches. That is attributed mostly to boxing and to a certain degree, muay thai. What he strove to create in Jeet Kune Do was simple, effective movements with little flair and no filler. Boiled down, that is exactly what boxing is. He would essentially be out of his game if faced with a good boxer, and would not do well against one in my opinion.
> 
> To do an honest analysis, one has to realize Bruce Lee was, for sure, a good martial artist, but his bread and butter was acting and he was in fact, not a god . He had no idea back then how many disciplines people know in modern MMA and how well-rounded fighters would get.


Your statement is flawed becuase it seems to be assuming Bruce would not bother to learn the ground game. Which at the time of his death he was. JKD was an incomplete Martail art.. and saying he would nto do well against a boxer is also flawed since alot of the foot work and such Bruce develeped FROM boxing.. He was a huge fan of boxing and regulalry sparred with boxers. 

Why do people forget that Bruce was an EVER EVOLVING Martial Artist. He was ALWAYS looking for ways to improve his skalls and add new techniqes to say a guy with an amature background in wrestling would take him 9 out of 10 times is ludicris... He was constantly trying to improve his skills and the ground game was something he was working on which more then likely would have ended up including wrestling.. and with the way he excelled in stand up I am sure he would have come to an exceptional level on the ground as well. Quit paying attention to his movies and pay attention to how he actually trained and thought and prepared. BRuce would have been an elite level MMA fighter easily in the top 5 P4P ranking on anyones chart. Bruce trained more in a week then many pro fighters train in a month.


----------



## Davisty69

The Don said:


> Your statement is flawed becuase it seems to be assuming Bruce would not bother to learn the ground game. Which at the time of his death he was. JKD was an incomplete Martail art.. and saying he would nto do well against a boxer is also flawed since alot of the foot work and such Bruce develeped FROM boxing.. He was a huge fan of boxing and regulalry sparred with boxers.
> 
> Why do people forget that Bruce was an EVER EVOLVING Martial Artist. He was ALWAYS looking for ways to improve his skalls and add new techniqes to say a guy with an amature background in wrestling would take him 9 out of 10 times is ludicris... He was constantly trying to improve his skills and the ground game was something he was working on which more then likely would have ended up including wrestling.. and with the way he excelled in stand up I am sure he would have come to an exceptional level on the ground as well. Quit paying attention to his movies and pay attention to how he actually trained and thought and prepared. BRuce would have been an elite level MMA fighter easily in the top 5 P4P ranking on anyones chart. Bruce trained more in a week then many pro fighters train in a month.


Agreed 100%


----------



## jcal

mmamasta said:


> Although you're right that it's not talked about alot, I would have to agree that Bruce Lee was the grandfather of mma. I say this because he was the first martial artist who really wanted to create a style that was a marriage of all the best styles, and more specifically a style that would be very useful in real-life scenarios. In fact, his choice to meld together various forms of martial arts into jeet kune do was arguably what got him killed, and is definitely why he was outcast by the entire martial arts community (well that, and that he had an open invitation to anyone to beat him in his style, and no one could).
> 
> I believe that jeet june do is (in my opinion!) the best martial art out there for real-life use, BUT, no SINGLE martial art is going to survive in the ring (and don't give me that Machida Karate crap, yes he uses karate, but not JUST karate).
> 
> I do want to finish by saying I remember a fighter (I think in either WEC or ELITE XC) that actually fought with a primarialy jeet kune do style, and he did really well. But I cannot remember his name, or what happened to him.


Gene Labelle wouldve smoked Bruce lee back then but NOBODY wanted to fight him. According to Chuck Norris Gene La Labelle was the most dangerous fighter in that era, Think about it nobody else had a great submission ground game in America. Also many wrestlers would have creamed Bruce Lee like Dan Gable for instance, its just that nobody considered wrestling to be a viable fighting style back then. Bruce Lee was sooo small many bigger people would have ripped him apart IMO. Dont let hollywood fool you.


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## slapshot

Not that Wikipedia is always a 100% accurate source of info but there are some interesting facts about him. I think he would do very well in MMA in his weight class and his fighters have always went on to be champions. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee


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## rabakill

he had physical conditioning and strength that is unmatched by anyone I have ever seen. And that is what is worth talking about. Of course he would get demolished if he were to walk in the UFC today, BJ Penn could smother him, take him down, then he'd be defenseless. But that's not the point, his work ethic and discipline is completely unmatched. I think if Bruce Lee was 25 years old and had the chance to train with a top team he'd be a champion without a doubt.


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## mtt_c

For as big a fan of Bruce Lee as I am, he can't be given sole credit for trying to blend fighting styles to create a superior one. The martial arts is all about evolution and creating styles that the orginator thinks works. Bruce Lee was just following this noble tradition that hundreds of asian martial artists developed.

If he was in UFC 1-7 or 8, he'd be a badass against most and have difficulty against the BJJ guys. 

Last point, Bruce Lee moved so fast his hands slowed down, that doesn't mean JKD or TKD is a viable professional fighting style.


----------



## Assassin

Bruce Lee was an actor. He's not the godfather of MMA, maybe more like a pioneer.


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## Onganju

jcal said:


> Gene Labelle wouldve smoked Bruce lee back then but NOBODY wanted to fight him. According to Chuck Norris Gene La Labelle was the most dangerous fighter in that era, Think about it nobody else had a great submission ground game in America. Also many wrestlers would have creamed Bruce Lee like Dan Gable for instance, its just that nobody considered wrestling to be a viable fighting style back then. Bruce Lee was sooo small many bigger people would have ripped him apart IMO. Dont let hollywood fool you.


I find it funny that you bring Gene Lebell (not Labelle like Edith or Patty) up, but fail to mention that he actually trained with Bruce back in the day. In fact, according to Gene, Lee loved to grapple. I'm not sure Lebell himself would wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment.

Just like clock work, a thread about Bruce Lee pops up after a UFC event. I think it's ridiculous that so many supposedly "knowledgeable" posters claim that Bruce Lee was nothing more than an actor. If you aren't convinced he was a viable martial artist or fighter, then you'll have to go off of stories of the many viable martial artists and fighters who would attest to his ability.

On that same coin, I hate how many posters claim that Bruce fighting in MMA would be akin to God entering the octagon. I like how everyone loves playing the "what if" game. Yes, we know he was obsessive in his training. Yes, we know he very serious about finding applicable techniques for fighting and how he dabbled in a lot of different styles on his journey to do so. 

*We do not know how he would do in the MMA ring*. End of story. All this other posturing is simply a further revelation of the obsessive geekiness that is inherent in all MMA fans on both sides of the fence.

Now can we get back to reality, agree to disagree, compromise, meet somewhere in-between and talk about MMA stuff that is right in front of us?


----------



## jcal

Onganju said:


> I find it funny that you bring Gene Lebell (not Labelle like Edith or Patty) up, but fail to mention that he actually trained with Bruce back in the day. In fact, according to Gene, Lee loved to grapple. I'm not sure Lebell himself would wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment.
> 
> Just like clock work, a thread about Bruce Lee pops up after a UFC event. I think it's ridiculous that so many supposedly "knowledgeable" posters claim that Bruce Lee was nothing more than an actor. If you aren't convinced he was a viable martial artist or fighter, then you'll have to go off of stories of the many viable martial artists and fighters who would attest to his ability.
> 
> On that same coin, I hate how many posters claim that Bruce fighting in MMA would be akin to God entering the octagon. I like how everyone loves playing the "what if" game. Yes, we know he was obsessive in his training. Yes, we know he very serious about finding applicable techniques for fighting and how he dabbled in a lot of different styles on his journey to do so.
> 
> *We do not know how he would do in the MMA ring*. End of story. All this other posturing is simply a further revelation of the obsessive geekiness that is inherent in all MMA fans on both sides of the fence.
> 
> Now can we get back to reality, agree to disagree, compromise, meet somewhere in-between and talk about MMA stuff that is right in front of us?


You mean Bruce trained with Gene, Gene didnt need a 1" punch or any other ridiculous antics. He would have choked bruce out as soon as he caught him, in the mean time he wouldve had to endure a man that weighed what 130lbs with no real ground skills making stupid noises and running around a cage


----------



## Onganju

Yes he did. And to a point I agree with what you are trying to say. On the other side of the coin, what you are bringing along side of it is utter crap when taken into the context of an intelligent conversation.

You do realize that 1" in punch is simply a demonstration of applied body mechanics? Further, as attested by Lebell himself, Lee had ground skills. He simply knew what did not work on screen when it came to movies.

You sir fall in the end of the spectrum that Lee was simply a showy movie star. I'm sorry, but that would be ignorant in the face of credit that other martial artists give him (Gene Lebell being one of them).


----------



## jasvll

jcal said:


> You mean Bruce trained with Gene, Gene didnt need a 1" punch or any other ridiculous antics. He would have choked bruce out as soon as he caught him, in the mean time he wouldve had to endure a man that weighed what 130lbs with no real ground skills *making stupid noises and running around a cage*


Using that logic, fighting Randy Couture means having to endure body armor and a battle axe:


----------



## VolcomX311

Irrelevant, but fun facts. Bruce Lee was born in San Fransisco as an American Citizen and his name was given to him by a nurse, who felt if he had an American name, there wouldn't be any confusion as to the citizenship of the baby. Also, Bruce wasn't pure Chinese, he was actually part German (his grandfather from his mother’s side was half German). Also, due to this little fact and because it was seen as taboo by everyone else to teach kung fu to a non- pure blood.
His master, Yip Man, had to teach him Wing Chun in private. 

and knowing is half the battle.


----------



## kantowrestler

*Lee VS Inoki*

Now that would've been a dream match at the time! Even though Bruse Lee can be considered the father of MMA, Inoki can also be regarded as an early MMA fighter. In fact, he fought one of the best boxers of the era Mohammed Ali, though it ended in a tie. He was also rewarded the WWF World Martial Arts Title and was only one of two fighters to hold it. He also taught many hybrid MMA/prowrestling fighters in Japan!


----------



## MMALearner

*Dont Mean to Bring This Up...*

I was just searching for some Bruce Lee training methods on the net and came across this forum. I've trained very little in MMA, although I have trained in Ken po and Tai Kwan Do.

I just couldn't hold my tongue on this one; to say that ANY man could have defeated Bruce Lee in ANY capacity is totally insane. You MMA people have no concept of the way Bruce Lee trained and lived his life. He would defeat ANY man that has ever lived, easily, might I add. In MMA, or any other form of physical combat. Seriously. The man did more for the modern day MMA than anyone, and you dont even realize it!!


----------



## swpthleg

MMALearner said:


> I was just searching for some Bruce Lee training methods on the net and came across this forum. I've trained very little in MMA, although I have trained in Ken po and Tai Kwan Do.
> 
> I just couldn't hold my tongue on this one; to say that ANY man could have defeated Bruce Lee in ANY capacity is totally insane. You MMA people have no concept of the way Bruce Lee trained and lived his life. He would defeat ANY man that has ever lived, easily, might I add. In MMA, or any other form of physical combat. Seriously. The man did more for the modern day MMA than anyone, and you dont even realize it!!


Sure we do. It's just an extremely explosive topic on this forum, as you may have noticed.

Welcome to the forum.


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## mma320

Bruce Lee was "just" some Kung Fu guy? Do you have any idea how many tournaments that man was in? I mean for Christ sake he made his own Martial Art. Does Silva, have his own Martial Art? Did Anderson, have to beat mother****ers up IRL on his movie sets? Does Anderson, have people trying to kill him because he's teaching other people Martial Arts? NO! Anderson Silva is JUST some UFC fighter. He's good. Hell he's ****in' great but, Bruce Lee is Legendary. Hell he made the "horse" stance. He did the ORIGINAL "One Inch Punch." His stepping side kicks could probably knock a friggen house over... Jesus.. What the hell is going on around here!? Anderson Silva could beat Bruce Lee.... PFFFT! Blasphemy!


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## swpthleg

OK, everyone take a deep breath now.


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## Onganju

No... Just no. Somebody please close this piece of shit thread. You have know-it-alls and know-nothings on both extremes of the spectrum of this topic...

And just like clockwork, it pops up right after a UFC event.


----------



## IronMan

mma320 said:


> Bruce Lee was "just" some Kung Fu guy? Do you have any idea how many tournaments that man was in? I mean for Christ sake he made his own Martial Art. Does Silva, have his own Martial Art? Did Anderson, have to beat mother****ers up IRL on his movie sets? Does Anderson, have people trying to kill him because he's teaching other people Martial Arts? NO! Anderson Silva is JUST some UFC fighter. He's good. Hell he's ****in' great but, Bruce Lee is Legendary. Hell he made the "horse" stance. He did the ORIGINAL "One Inch Punch." His stepping side kicks could probably knock a friggen house over... Jesus.. What the hell is going on around here!? Anderson Silva could beat Bruce Lee.... PFFFT! Blasphemy!


Oh my god. Not this again.

We're talking about a fight in which Lee would give up 30-40 pounds and a half dozen inches of reach (at least). Apart from the physical disadvantage, we're dealing with the martial arts equivalent of inflation.

Each notable generation of athletes are better than their predecessors. Usain Bolt is faster than Carl Lewis. We deal with the same thing in combat.

Systems advance, they move forward, they get better.

That's not to rag on "legends," but we're talking about guys who dealt with inferior training methods and inferior knowledge of kinesthetics.

Anderson Silva would beat Bruce Lee because he's bigger, stronger, more athletic, and working with a superior knowledge of training methods.

I have a lot of respect for Bruce Lee, but if you're going to talk to him fighting, at least talk about him in the context of a division that makes sense.


----------



## Onganju

IronMan said:


> I have a lot of respect for Bruce Lee, but if you're going to talk to him fighting, at least talk about him in the context of a division that makes sense.


Same here. I really wish people would keep his relevance in regards to fighting/martial arts in context *period*. You have too many folks who either claim, "He wasn't shit... He was just an actor..." on one side of the spectrum, or others who claim "His work ethic and physical talents/attributes are super-human..." on the other. Want proof? Just look at the majority of the previous posts in this (or many of the other previous) thread(s).


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## Davisty69

These arguments never end well...


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## swpthleg

What did I just say on the previous page guys?

This is a topic, like religion or politics, that makes so many members go batshit crazy, it's better avoided altogether.


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## Ruckus

WOW! I actually just got sucked into reading this entire thread, and that is time I will never get back. That being said, I feel inclined to respond somewhat so it's not just a complete waste of time. I'll try to be brief...




Vestax80 said:


> *If Bruce Lee could give the same kind of commitment to MMA that he gave to Kung Fu would he be a contender?*


This should have been the question and maybe it has been in some other thread.



Poland said:


> Don't want to bump this up, but just a couple comments to the OP -
> 
> 1) *Wasn't Bruce Lee defeated back in the day?*
> 
> 2) *Still, I don't know if he incorporated much wrestling into his training,*


Very little facts as to Bruce's ACTUAL fighting history, some say he got into training because he got beat up as a teenager, have yet to find anything to say he got beat as an adult.



joppp said:


> By that logic Bruce Lee was an ACTOR. *Many MMA fighters today have probably encountered more dangerous real life situations than Lee ever have. *What "warrior-like has Lee done? Specifically? When he talks about his stuff he sounds pretty stoned, tbh...


It is documented that Lee was involved in gand-related activity as a young man, i think that constitutes as dangerous real life encounters.



HeavyRob said:


> He opened his own school. Taught for years. Developed Jeet Kune Do *(like a verry basic MMA).* Dislocated a dude's shoulder when he punched him.
> 
> *He competed in a ton of martial arts tournaments.*


JKD is a "mixed" martial arts, which continued to evolve from its inception until his death. Hell, he trained under Gene Lebelle, some refer to him as the "godfather of grappling". Only speculating, but I would say he was adding this to his "style" of fighting and combat.

I have a hard time finding a "ton" of tounaments Lee competed in, really only a hand few between 1958-1961, (he did win them all though)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



xeberus said:


> RAWR!
> 
> These are a few of the fights that Bruce participated in the ring and out.
> 
> 1958:
> vs. Gary Elms in a tournament. (Won)
> 1958 or 1959:
> Against Chung on a rooftop in Hong Kong. (Won in 2nd Round)
> 1960 - Seattle:
> Bruce backfisted a guy and busted his nose after Bruce saw him harrassing a Chinese Girl. Bruce was taking a walk. This fight was witnessed by James DeMile.
> 1960 or 1961:
> vs. Uechi. (Won in 10 seconds)
> Summer 1963 - Hong Kong:
> Bruce snapped a low kick to a punk's shin after the punk and his friend harrassed him during an evening stroll.





jcal said:


> *they all considered one man to be the absolute toughest his name was Gene Lebelle. Back then chuck was asked who was the baddest man and he said Lebelle hands down*


See above, and add that Chuck is on record as saying Bruce Lee would beat him, a well accomplished competitor in many tournaments, hands down.



michelangelo said:


> There is zero basis either for the initial comparison or for subsequent criticisms of the initial comparison.


^THIS^ :thumb02:




IronMan said:


> *It's like asking "would Ali have beaten Mike Tyson?"*




and ^THIS^



swpthleg said:


> What did I just say on the previous page guys?
> 
> This is a topic, like religion or politics, that makes so many members go batshit crazy, *it's better avoided altogether.*


I should have started at the end of the thread with ^THIS^ and my place in the world tonight would have been a little better.


----------



## JimmyJames

Bruce Lee aint beating anyone at anything cause HE'S DEAD!


----------



## barbster

Haha so true... the only one that could kick ass beyond the grave is Chuck Norris. Scientific fact you know!


----------



## MMALearner

*Seriously??*

Ironman,

Honestly, you think Silva could defeat Bruce Lee just because hes bigger and stronger,and (you think) he has more technique!!!

Thats absurd, Bruce Lee was THE Ultimate Fighting Machine!! Period. He pushed the human body to its limits in every way possible. He was more in shape than Silva ever was or will be.

It doesnt matter that Silva is stronger or bigger, I guarantee his technique is not NEARLY as effective as B. Lee's, this man was SO ahead of his time its unbelievable.

He would mash anyone in physical combat, MMA, Martial Arts, anything. He would hit Silva 7 times in one second end of Silva. Anderson would be lucky to escape with his body intact.

I didnt want to start a big thing, but people need to be more educated on Bruce Lee and read his book and about his arts and abilities before you say some cheap, nothing like A. Silva could be Bruce Lee.

Fact is, nobody will remember Silva in 20 or 30 years, Bruce Lee will ALWAYS be remembered; as the greatest fighter of all time, in ANY capacity!!


----------



## MMALearner

*Right!!*

mma320, right on.

Silva beating Bruce Lee is blasphemy to all people who train MMA, or martial arts period!


----------



## Hawndo

Obvious Troll is Obvious.

That being said, dunno if it has been mentioned in the thread so far, too long to read all but Bruce Lee never fought a competitive fight in his life, and is currently a corpse so would most definitely get smoked either way.


----------



## Roflcopter

Bruce Lee was hardly a real martial artist...so no it's doubtful.


----------



## jcal

Just cant help myself! But here is a little bit about Bruce from Divine Wind forum which is all Bruce Lee from "experts and friends"

DW Forum - Lee trained Norris, Lewis, Stone...etc, why did Lee never enter competition? Surely this would have been a sure way to prove his fighting methods. Did Lee train Norris, Lewis, Stone in order to build up his own hype and image?

Davis Miller - Of course Lee used these guys to develop and support his reputation. Those guys, not Bruce Lee, were the biggest names in the martial arts in the late 1960s. And Lee recruited them, not the reverse. None of those guys ever called Lee their teacher or "master." Lee said that of himself. Lee in effect said that he did not enter competition because it was basically beneath him. Those guys weren't good enough, and that such competion was not to be confused with real-world fighting. There is a truth in what he said. In 1971 and 1972, however, Bruce Lee gave interviews in Hong Kong in which he claimed to have thrown and/or given away all of the trophies and plaques he won in competition in the United States. He did not say this once to one person who misquoted him. He said it again and again. *The truth, of course, is that he had never entered competition in the U.S. And he was never going to. It's my opinion that Lee was afraid to put it on the line against real guys he'd have to prove himself against*. Who did Lee spar ever? Inosanto, who can't fight a lick; Ted Wong, who's less capable than Inosanto; Herb Jackson, who's also incapable, Dan Lee, who wasn't very good but who hurt Lee badly with a single shot, maybe a couple other geek kune doers. BUT NO ONE REAL. No Lewis, no Stone, no Gene Lebell, no amateur boxers or wrestlers, much less the likes of world champs of his own size and weight, much less the Alis, Fraziers and Foremans of the world, who have the juice in their shots to kill guys of Lee's size with a single punch. Here's a simple idea for you: What in the world could Bruce Lee do against a contemporary of his named Andre the Giant? Choke out his kneecap. The reality is this: Bruce Lee was light years ahead of almost everyone else in martial arts anywhere in the world at the time of his death. Does this make him the most lethal unarmed guy on the planet? Not even close. Am I putting Lee down by saying this? Not in the least. Simply demythologizing him, making him the human being he was, instead of some martial arts world's greatest warrrior deity.


----------



## IronMan

MMALearner said:


> Honestly, you think Silva could defeat Bruce Lee just because hes bigger and stronger,and (you think) he has more technique!!!


Yes!

If a one fighter is bigger, stronger and has better technique, that's the guy I pick to win.



> Thats absurd, Bruce Lee was THE Ultimate Fighting Machine!! Period. He pushed the human body to its limits in every way possible. He was more in shape than Silva ever was or will be.


Sure. With heavy dietary supplementing, he took a 5'8, 150 pound frame (and I'm being generous with those numbers; he was probably smaller) to the limit of physical ability.

He pushed _his_ body to the limits, but when we're talking about human limitation, there are guys who lift more, there are guys who run faster, there are guys who can take more punishment, and so on.

To say that Bruce Lee "pushed the human body to its limits in every way possible" is just a lie.

He never broke a sprinting record.

He never broke a power lifting record.

Those are two ways in which he never even attempted to push "the human body," and there are plenty more.



> It doesnt matter that Silva is stronger or bigger, I guarantee his technique is not NEARLY as effective as B. Lee's, this man was SO ahead of his time its unbelievable.
> 
> He would mash anyone in physical combat, MMA, Martial Arts, anything. He would hit Silva 7 times in one second end of Silva. Anderson would be lucky to escape with his body intact.


Bruce Lee's time was 35 years ago. He definitely was ahead of his time, then, but the world turns, and time catches up with the advances made by legends.

Did Lee have phenomenal kicks and great short power? Absolutely! Certainly the best in his generation. _In his generation._

Anderson Silva is a generation ahead of everyone active in MMA (with one or two exceptions; Fedor Emelianenko being the obvious one). Which puts him three or four generations ahead of the guys Lee was competing against.

Again, adjust for inflation, and the change in access to information (Silva trains with masters in multiple styles on a regular basis, and has superior dietary knowledge, purely on the basis of living in the 21st century), and you're dealing with a totally different caliber of fighter.



> I didnt want to start a big thing, but people need to be more educated on Bruce Lee and read his book and about his arts and abilities before you say some cheap, nothing like A. Silva could be Bruce Lee.
> 
> Fact is, nobody will remember Silva in 20 or 30 years, Bruce Lee will ALWAYS be remembered; as the greatest fighter of all time, in ANY capacity!!


I've read the Tao of Jeet Kun Do (and numerous other books and collections published posthumously), but there's this delusion among people in the martial arts (usually spectators, and not people who train) that Bruce Lee is a demigod, a messiah of combat.

It doesn't work like that.

The point of all athletic endeavors is to supersede previous generations, and only those on the outside look in and say "oh, there will never be anybody better than Bruce Lee," or "there will never be anybody better than Alexander Karelin" or equivalents.

Every martial artist wants to supersede the previous generation and, what's more, they do.

The jiu-jitsu of Rickson Gracie was better than that of Helio Gracie, because Rickson Gracie was standing on the metaphorical shoulders of his father. Similarly, the jiu-jitsu of Roger Gracie is better than the jiu-jitsu of his predecessors.

"If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants."

And so it is with martial arts.

Every major martial artist today has learned from the legacy and work of Bruce Lee, and those who have succeeded have done so often because they have taken what existed before and improved upon it. This is the natural evolution of the martial skillset, and the arts as a whole.

If you think that a fighter, any fighter, working from the skillset and knowledge base that existed more than thirty five years ago would be better than his counterparts, the elite warriors, working with the knowledge base that exists today, then you truly have no understanding of what it means to train in the martial arts.


----------



## Toxic

IronMan said:


> Yes!
> 
> If a one fighter is bigger, stronger and has better technique, that's the guy I pick to win.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure. With heavy dietary supplementing, he took a 5'8, 150 pound frame (and I'm being generous with those numbers; he was probably smaller) to the limit of physical ability.
> 
> He pushed _his_ body to the limits, but when we're talking about human limitation, there are guys who lift more, there are guys who run faster, there are guys who can take more punishment, and so on.
> 
> To say that Bruce Lee "pushed the human body to its limits in every way possible" is just a lie.
> 
> He never broke a sprinting record.
> 
> He never broke a power lifting record.
> 
> Those are two ways in which he never even attempted to push "the human body," and there are plenty more.
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce Lee's time was 35 years ago. He definitely was ahead of his time, then, but the world turns, and time catches up with the advances made by legends.
> 
> Did Lee have phenomenal kicks and great short power? Absolutely! Certainly the best in his generation. _In his generation._
> 
> Anderson Silva is a generation ahead of everyone active in MMA (with one or two exceptions; Fedor Emelianenko being the obvious one). Which puts him three or four generations ahead of the guys Lee was competing against.
> 
> Again, adjust for inflation, and the change in access to information (Silva trains with masters in multiple styles on a regular basis, and has superior dietary knowledge, purely on the basis of living in the 21st century), and you're dealing with a totally different caliber of fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> I've read the Tao of Jeet Kun Do (and numerous other books and collections published posthumously), but there's this delusion among people in the martial arts (usually spectators, and not people who train) that Bruce Lee is a demigod, a messiah of combat.
> 
> It doesn't work like that.
> 
> The point of all athletic endeavors is to supersede previous generations, and only those on the outside look in and say "oh, there will never be anybody better than Bruce Lee," or "there will never be anybody better than Alexander Karelin" or equivalents.
> 
> Every martial artist wants to supersede the previous generation and, what's more, they do.
> 
> The jiu-jitsu of Rickson Gracie was better than that of Helio Gracie, because Rickson Gracie was standing on the metaphorical shoulders of his father. Similarly, the jiu-jitsu of Roger Gracie is better than the jiu-jitsu of his predecessors.
> 
> "If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants."
> 
> And so it is with martial arts.
> 
> Every major martial artist today has learned from the legacy and work of Bruce Lee, and those who have succeeded have done so often because they have taken what existed before and improved upon it. This is the natural evolution of the martial skillset, and the arts as a whole.
> 
> If you think that a fighter, any fighter, working from the skillset and knowledge base that existed more than thirty five years ago would be better than his counterparts, the elite warriors, working with the knowledge base that exists today, then you truly have no understanding of what it means to train in the martial arts.



I'm just gonna quote this because I don't think its possible to say it any better, this is a thread ender right here.


----------



## jcal

Good post ironman except 1 thing; he didnt have the most phenominal kicks and short power of his era. It cant be proven.All weve ever seen of him performing these things is in movies or a demonstration. He never fought a world class fighter for "real" ever. The post I put above yours was from a friend of his that knew him personally. He clearly said that "Bruce had a huge ego and didnt want to fight anybody good and risk losing". Let me put this out there: Dont you think a world champion Boxer from his era would have better short power? Or a world class Tae Kwon Do practicioner a more phenominal kick? or a muaythai world champion or a world champion karate fighter? And though Bruce gets all the credit with being the first martial artist to blend styles, how can that be proven? Whos to say Joe Shmo didnt get his blackbelt in Karate and then decide he wanted to try judo or any other martial art? Its all a fallacy.


----------



## IronMan

jcal said:


> Good post ironman except 1 thing; he didnt have the most phenominal kicks and short power of his era. It cant be proven.All weve ever seen of him performing these things is in movies or a demonstration. He never fought a world class fighter for "real" ever. The post I put above yours was from a friend of his that knew him personally. He clearly said that "Bruce had a huge ego and didnt want to fight anybody good and risk losing". Let me put this out there: Dont you think a world champion Boxer from his era would have better short power? Or a world class Tae Kwon Do practicioner a more phenominal kick? or a muaythai world champion or a world champion karate fighter? And though Bruce gets all the credit with being the first martial artist to blend styles, how can that be proven? Whos to say Joe Shmo didnt get his blackbelt in Karate and then decide he wanted to try judo or any other martial art? Its all a fallacy.


Yeah, that's all fair, I was avoiding those points because I didn't want to piss Mr Troll off too badly, but this is consistent with some (not all) of the accounts I've heard.


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## barbster

Realistically people forget that Bruce Lee was small and an 'actor'.. his legend is magnified because of famous movies. If you stuck him in an MMA fight against a top fighter(an artform that has evolved over the last 15 years) he'd probably get destroyed.


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## jcal

IronMan said:


> Yeah, that's all fair, I was avoiding those points because I didn't want to piss Mr Troll off too badly, but this is consistent with some (not all) of the accounts I've heard.


Yeah I kinda figured you were going easy on him. I have no idea why this thread Always sucks me in. It really doesnt matter. He made great movies and I get to watch them occasionally, so its all good in the hood.


----------



## the_Iron Fist

IT's been awhile since the last time I logged on...and I had a thing I needed to get off my chest that had something to do with Bruce Lee in MMA. It's something that keeps coming up in conversastions when I start talking about MMA, so thanks for this topic. 

In my opinion Bruce Lee would be able to dominate most fighters in the UFC because he was a complete fighter. The art form he invented Jeet Kune DO is a mixture of different styles starting with kicking, punching, trapping, and ending with grappling. Pretty much what you see in the UFC today. On top of that he has proven in front of councels and thousands of people that he is ridicuosly fast with freakish strength and awsome flexibility. Even more to say, not only was he able to fight and center his life around martial arts, but he was able to have a movie career on the side and succeeded in it becoming a cultrual phenomenom. So competeing in the UFC I think would have just been another life achievment.


----------



## Rauno

What do you think happens when GSP takes Bruce Lee to the ground?


----------



## Hawndo

the_Iron Fist said:


> IT's been awhile since the last time I logged on...and I had a thing I needed to get off my chest that had something to do with Bruce Lee in MMA. It's something that keeps coming up in conversastions when I start talking about MMA, so thanks for this topic.
> 
> In my opinion Bruce Lee would be able to dominate most fighters in the UFC because he was a complete fighter. The art form he invented Jeet Kune DO is a mixture of different styles starting with kicking, punching, trapping, and ending with grappling. Pretty much what you see in the UFC today. On top of that he has proven in front of councels and thousands of people that he is ridicuosly fast with freakish strength and awsome flexibility. Even more to say, not only was he able to fight and center his life around martial arts, but he was able to have a movie career on the side and succeeded in it becoming a cultrual phenomenom. So competeing in the UFC I think would have just been another life achievment.



Now I know you are a Troll. GSP would turn his face to a fine meat paste.


----------



## DahStoryTella

Hawndo said:


> Now I know you are a Troll. GSP would turn his face to a fine meat paste.


How does him having an opinion make him a troll?

Lmfao, please.


----------



## Hawndo

It's actually just the way he types and asserts his arguements, makes me think he is joking.


----------



## IronMan

the_Iron Fist said:


> IT's been awhile since the last time I logged on...and I had a thing I needed to get off my chest that had something to do with Bruce Lee in MMA. It's something that keeps coming up in conversastions when I start talking about MMA, so thanks for this topic.
> 
> In my opinion Bruce Lee would be able to dominate most fighters in the UFC because he was a complete fighter. The art form he invented Jeet Kune DO is a mixture of different styles starting with kicking, punching, trapping, and ending with grappling. Pretty much what you see in the UFC today. On top of that he has proven in front of councels and thousands of people that he is ridicuosly fast with freakish strength and awsome flexibility. Even more to say, not only was he able to fight and center his life around martial arts, but he was able to have a movie career on the side and succeeded in it becoming a cultrual phenomenom. So competeing in the UFC I think would have just been another life achievment.


Please.

Bruce's ground game was weak, even from the little he displayed, and giving up 50 pounds to someone like GSP would be the end of it.


----------



## HitOrGetHit

IronMan said:


> Please.
> 
> Bruce's ground game was weak, even from the little he displayed, and giving up 50 pounds to someone like GSP would be the end of it.


Agreed. Fighters today have evolved way beyond what was considered "the best" back then. Someone like GSP is far more well rounded than someone like Bruce Lee.


----------



## vandalian

shadow_dragon said:


> Everyone knows that Bruce Lee is the greatest fighter ever


Uh, what?


----------



## Crazyman1212

*Seriously*

Most of you on here have no ******* idea what your talking about, just because you watch UFC doesn't make you a martial arts expert. Bruce Lee INVENTED MMA, an idea that he was laughed at and mocked for until he made history in a 1 min match putting the laughing crowd in dead silence. Bruce Lee studied martial arts since he was a child, EVERY DAY OF HIS LIFE. Some of todays best fighters say they have learned a great deal in proper weight training, calisthenics, cardio fitness and stretching from bruce lees strict workouts that have vastly improved their skills. Bruce may have looked small but it was fast muscle not bulky muscle thats mostly for show. Bruce Lee had a 300lbs punching bag that he way able to move standing still with one punch "talk about power". The size of your muscle mass and weight doesn't make that much of difference in MMA, espically if you had to fight Bruce Lee, he has proved this time and time again threw his career when very big men tried to prove this small man wrong. I could go on and on but the fact of the matter is it seems some of you watched enter the dragon once and decided that you understand everything about bruce lee. Most of the UFC fighters you look up to today consider bruce lee a legend and would not want to step in the ring with the master. 

P.S Did you know when bruce lee started his acting career, he had to slow down his kicks in the action scenes so that you could see the kick on camera, FACT!


----------



## Davisty69

Interesting first post....


----------



## Wookie

Crazyman1212 said:


> Most of you on here have no ******* idea what your talking about, just because you watch UFC doesn't make you a martial arts expert. Bruce Lee INVENTED MMA, an idea that he was laughed at and mocked for until he made history in a 1 min match putting the laughing crowd in dead silence. Bruce Lee studied martial arts since he was a child, EVERY DAY OF HIS LIFE. Some of todays best fighters say they have learned a great deal in proper weight training, calisthenics, cardio fitness and stretching from bruce lees strict workouts that have vastly improved their skills. Bruce may have looked small but it was fast muscle not bulky muscle thats mostly for show. Bruce Lee had a 300lbs punching bag that he way able to move standing still with one punch "talk about power". The size of your muscle mass and weight doesn't make that much of difference in MMA, espically if you had to fight Bruce Lee, he has proved this time and time again threw his career when very big men tried to prove this small man wrong. I could go on and on but the fact of the matter is it seems some of you watched enter the dragon once and decided that you understand everything about bruce lee. Most of the UFC fighters you look up to today consider bruce lee a legend and would not want to step in the ring with the master.
> 
> P.S Did you know when bruce lee started his acting career, he had to slow down his kicks in the action scenes so that you could see the kick on camera, FACT!


That was an awesome first post. They had a two hour special on Bruce Lee a couple months ago. What people fail to realize is that he was all about being adaptable. He didn't like using one kind of style, his gameplans today would have been sick. And like crazyman said he was crazy strong for his size. He would tear up the bantamweight divison in the WEC and have to move up in weight for competition. With his awesome work ethic he would have had some great cardio and could have mastered cutting weight. He could have no doubt ruled a couple different divisions.


----------



## IronMan

Crazyman1212 said:


> Most of you on here have no ******* idea what your talking about, just because you watch UFC doesn't make you a martial arts expert. Bruce Lee INVENTED MMA, an idea that he was laughed at and mocked for until he made history in a 1 min match putting the laughing crowd in dead silence. Bruce Lee studied martial arts since he was a child, EVERY DAY OF HIS LIFE. Some of todays best fighters say they have learned a great deal in proper weight training, calisthenics, cardio fitness and stretching from bruce lees strict workouts that have vastly improved their skills. Bruce may have looked small but it was fast muscle not bulky muscle thats mostly for show. Bruce Lee had a 300lbs punching bag that he way able to move standing still with one punch "talk about power". The size of your muscle mass and weight doesn't make that much of difference in MMA, espically if you had to fight Bruce Lee, he has proved this time and time again threw his career when very big men tried to prove this small man wrong. I could go on and on but the fact of the matter is it seems some of you watched enter the dragon once and decided that you understand everything about bruce lee. Most of the UFC fighters you look up to today consider bruce lee a legend and would not want to step in the ring with the master.
> 
> P.S Did you know when bruce lee started his acting career, he had to slow down his kicks in the action scenes so that you could see the kick on camera, FACT!


----------



## BobbyCooper

Crazyman1212 said:


> Most of you on here have no ******* idea what your talking about, just because you watch UFC doesn't make you a martial arts expert. Bruce Lee INVENTED MMA, an idea that he was laughed at and mocked for until he made history in a 1 min match putting the laughing crowd in dead silence. Bruce Lee studied martial arts since he was a child, EVERY DAY OF HIS LIFE. Some of todays best fighters say they have learned a great deal in proper weight training, calisthenics, cardio fitness and stretching from bruce lees strict workouts that have vastly improved their skills. Bruce may have looked small but it was fast muscle not bulky muscle thats mostly for show. Bruce Lee had a 300lbs punching bag that he way able to move standing still with one punch "talk about power". The size of your muscle mass and weight doesn't make that much of difference in MMA, espically if you had to fight Bruce Lee, he has proved this time and time again threw his career when very big men tried to prove this small man wrong. I could go on and on but the fact of the matter is it seems some of you watched enter the dragon once and decided that you understand everything about bruce lee. Most of the UFC fighters you look up to today consider bruce lee a legend and would not want to step in the ring with the master.
> 
> P.S Did you know when bruce lee started his acting career, he had to slow down his kicks in the action scenes so that you could see the kick on camera, FACT!


Great first post :thumb02:

We have to be so thankful that Bruce Lee gave us Mixed Martial Arts. There is nobody else like him, he will always be remembered as the greatest of all time. 

RIP Bruce!


----------



## HitOrGetHit

BobbyCooper said:


> Great first post :thumb02:
> 
> We have to be so thankful that Bruce Lee gave us Mixed Martial Arts. There is nobody else like him, he will always be remembered as the greatest of all time.
> 
> RIP Bruce!


Just because people don't agree that he would be the best in this day in age does not mean that they don't respect him for what he accomplished.


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## BobbyCooper

HitOrGetHit said:


> Just because people don't agree that he would be the best in this day in age does not mean that they don't respect him for what he accomplished.


I think everybody knows that fighters from today would beat Bruce in an MMA match everything else would be silly. It's a whole another era today. 

I didn't particular wanted to talk about that.


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## jcal

You know, even back in Lees days which would be the 60's and early 70's, there was Carlson Gracie. Gracie was fighting Vale Tudo (no holds barred) contests in Brazil. He took on all challengers. Size or style didnt even matter. 
The oldest son of Carlos Gracie, who founded Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in Rio de Janeiro during the 1920s,* Carlson reigned** as world champion for thirty years covering the '50s, '60s and '70s. He was never defeated in nineteen professional fights.* During this time, he was also considered one of the preeminent teachers of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in the world; a reputation he holds to this day. What could Bruce possibly do to this guy considering he had no idea what BJJ was. I would imagine if he and Bruce fought it would be the same thing that happenend when Royce introduced BJJ to the american public in the early UFC days. Except Carlson was more imposing than Royce and look at the monsters Royce beat like Severn or Kimo. Could you imagine what he would have done to a 140lb Bruce Lee?


----------



## Toxic

jcal said:


> You know, even back in Lees days which would be the 60's and early 70's, there was Carlson Gracie. Gracie was fighting Vale Tudo (no holds barred) contests in Brazil. He took on all challengers. Size or style didnt even matter.
> The oldest son of Carlos Gracie, who founded Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in Rio de Janeiro during the 1920s,* Carlson reigned** as world champion for thirty years covering the '50s, '60s and '70s. He was never defeated in nineteen professional fights.* During this time, he was also considered one of the preeminent teachers of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in the world; a reputation he holds to this day. What could Bruce possibly do to this guy considering he had no idea what BJJ was. I would imagine if he and Bruce fought it would be the same thing that happenend when Royce introduced BJJ to the american public in the early UFC days. Except Carlson was more imposing than Royce and look at the monsters Royce beat like Severn or Kimo. Could you imagine what he would have done to a 140lb Bruce Lee?


This isn't really true, first off until the sport of BJJ started to take off BJJ hadn't really evolved that far from Judo, not nearly as much as the Gracie myth would make you believe anyhow, in the 70's BJJ probably was somewhere between the sport we see today and Judo, a world class judoko would have been a superior grappler to Carlson. The problem is that sport Judo awards points for throws and pins with out a submission, while sport BJJ the submission is the goal which has led the two sports to evolve down different paths which is the real reason your elite level grapplers today are ussually students of BJJ.

The point of this speel was just to say that in the interest of fairness to the discussion that even though Lee had never studied BJJ that if he had studied Judo in his day he would be quite familiar with many of the holds and submissions.


----------



## xeberus

Crazyman1212 said:


> Most of you on here have no ******* idea what your talking about, just because you watch UFC doesn't make you a martial arts expert. Bruce Lee INVENTED MMA, an idea that he was laughed at and mocked for until he made history in a 1 min match putting the laughing crowd in dead silence. Bruce Lee studied martial arts since he was a child, EVERY DAY OF HIS LIFE. Some of todays best fighters say they have learned a great deal in proper weight training, calisthenics, cardio fitness and stretching from bruce lees strict workouts that have vastly improved their skills. Bruce may have looked small but it was fast muscle not bulky muscle thats mostly for show. Bruce Lee had a 300lbs punching bag that he way able to move standing still with one punch "talk about power". The size of your muscle mass and weight doesn't make that much of difference in MMA, espically if you had to fight Bruce Lee, he has proved this time and time again threw his career when very big men tried to prove this small man wrong. I could go on and on but the fact of the matter is it seems some of you watched enter the dragon once and decided that you understand everything about bruce lee. Most of the UFC fighters you look up to today consider bruce lee a legend and would not want to step in the ring with the master.
> 
> P.S Did you know when bruce lee started his acting career, he had to slow down his kicks in the action scenes so that you could see the kick on camera, FACT!


hahahahahahaha

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::sarcastic12:


----------



## IronMan

Toxic said:


> This isn't really true, first off until the sport of BJJ started to take off BJJ hadn't really evolved that far from Judo, not nearly as much as the Gracie myth would make you believe anyhow, in the 70's BJJ probably was somewhere between the sport we see today and Judo, a world class judoko would have been a superior grappler to Carlson. The problem is that sport Judo awards points for throws and pins with out a submission, while sport BJJ the submission is the goal which has led the two sports to evolve down different paths which is the real reason your elite level grapplers today are ussually students of BJJ.
> 
> The point of this speel was just to say that in the interest of fairness to the discussion that even though Lee had never studied BJJ that if he had studied Judo in his day he would be quite familiar with many of the holds and submissions.


In fairness, I think Carlos Gracie Sr. doesn't get enough credit for the early matwork of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Helio is credited heavily (and deservedly), but Carlos is responsible for many of the early developments, and it's clear that some of the developments in the closed guard did come about as early as the late 1920s, and had a style slightly distinct from judo when Helio started traveling.

Of course, the major developments occurred during the 1940s, when Helio was away from competition, so you're point is totally valid, and the sport has continued to evolve (moves like the gogoplata were developed later, as were a number of guard and half-guard variations that are pretty well known now).


----------



## Toxic

IronMan said:


> In fairness, I think Carlos Gracie Sr. doesn't get enough credit for the early matwork of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Helio is credited heavily (and deservedly), but Carlos is responsible for many of the early developments, and it's clear that some of the developments in the closed guard did come about as early as the late 1920s, and had a style slightly distinct from judo when Helio started traveling.
> 
> Of course, the major developments occurred during the 1940s, when Helio was away from competition, so you're point is totally valid, and the sport has continued to evolve (moves like the gogoplata were developed later, as were a number of guard and half-guard variations that are pretty well known now).


My understanding is that while Helio was responsible due to his small stature for utilizing and implementing the principles of leverage (which allows a small guy to attack a larger guy) into BJJ, Helio always preached takedown, pass guard, obtain mount, submit and he saw anything less than that as a failure, Carlos was more concerned with winning above all regardless of how it got there, there were no steps. Carlos began the development of BJJ while Helio was seen as to small and sickly to participate, Helio just advanced it later. But I do agree the credit should be more evenly distributed, although I feel the Gracies in general are given far to much credit by most MMA fans for there true contributions.


----------



## IronMan

Toxic said:


> My understanding is that while Helio was responsible due to his small stature for utilizing and implementing the principles of leverage (which allows a small guy to attack a larger guy) into BJJ, Helio always preached takedown, pass guard, obtain mount, submit and he saw anything less than that as a failure, Carlos was more concerned with winning above all regardless of how it got there, there were no steps. Carlos began the development of BJJ while Helio was seen as to small and sickly to participate, Helio just advanced it later. But I do agree the credit should be more evenly distributed, although I feel the Gracies in general are given far to much credit by most MMA fans for there true contributions.


I can definitely vouch for Helio's mindset in terms of what it means to win (Royler talked about it briefly at one of his seminars). I will say that many of the earliest fundamentalist of the guard in BJJ were attributed to Carlos by the Gracies themselves.

Helio, though, took guard passing somewhere it had never been (and still isn't) in judo.

Also, the use of weight and top control in early Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (while not superior to the system used in judo) is pretty radically different from "old judo." (Judo has changed a lot since the departure from leglocks and other things)

The Gracies deserve a lot of credit, but it's definitely not "Gracie" Jiu-Jitsu anymore.

Fabio Gurgel has as much influence over modern guard passing (maybe more) than Rickson Gracie; Nino Schembri and Ricardo De la Riva totally changed the guard. The world of grappling is far from dominated by the Gracies, and I think the podiums at Worlds are a pretty accurate representation of the modern grappling influences.


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## machidaisgod

And lets not forget Chuck Norris and Steven Segal please.


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## Toxic

IronMan said:


> I can definitely vouch for Helio's mindset in terms of what it means to win (Royler talked about it briefly at one of his seminars). I will say that many of the earliest fundamentalist of the guard in BJJ were attributed to Carlos by the Gracies themselves.
> 
> Helio, though, took guard passing somewhere it had never been (and still isn't) in judo.
> 
> Also, the use of weight and top control in early Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (while not superior to the system used in judo) is pretty radically different from "old judo." (Judo has changed a lot since the departure from leglocks and other things)
> 
> The Gracies deserve a lot of credit, but it's definitely not "Gracie" Jiu-Jitsu anymore.
> 
> Fabio Gurgel has as much influence over modern guard passing (maybe more) than Rickson Gracie; Nino Schembri and Ricardo De la Riva totally changed the guard. The world of grappling is far from dominated by the Gracies, and I* think the podiums at Worlds are a pretty accurate representation of the modern grappling influences.*


I agree, but you still have a lot of fans of MMA who look at a guy like Royce Gracie and think he is a Gracie, he is on a totally different level than a guy lie Demian Maia, hell Royce is a Gracie so that makes him some BJJ god, which is far from reality.


----------



## IronMan

Toxic said:


> I agree, but you still have a lot of fans of MMA who look at a guy like Royce Gracie and think he is a Gracie, he is on a totally different level than a guy lie Demian Maia, hell Royce is a Gracie so that makes him some BJJ god, which is far from reality.


I'm with you on this one.

The Gracie name is more of a brand at this point.

I mean, the best "Gracie" isn't a Gracie (Roger), and there aren't any other Gracies in the top ten.


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## Davisty69

I'll bite, why is Roger Gracie not a "gracie"? Teach me Obi Wan


----------



## IronMan

Davisty69 said:


> I'll bite, why is Roger Gracie not a "gracie"? Teach me Obi Wan


Well, his father is Mauricio Motta Gomes. Roger took his mother's maiden name (his mother is Reila Gracie).

That's the conventional demonstration.

More important (for me, at least) is that Roger doesn't associate himself with the Gracie Humaita brand, which is what Americans (and everybody else, for the most part) mean when they talk about "Gracie" Jiu-Jitsu.

Roger comes out of the Gracie Barra lineage, which is not descended from Helio via Rickson, Royce, Royler and Rorion, but by means of Carlos Gracie Sr. by means of his sons.

Roger is a direct descendant of the Gracie family, but (firstly) his connection is maternal and (secondly) calling him a "Gracie" is misleading, because he doesn't self-identify with Academia Gracie or Humaita in general. He trains in London, with Braulio Estima, and really distances himself from his second cousins in the states.

That said, I think if Helio (RIP Grandmaster) was still with us, he would happily acknowledge that Roger Gracie is as close to his image of perfect Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu as we've yet seen. His performance at worlds this year was (without a doubt) the greatest performance in the short history of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (and, perhaps, the longer history of sports grappling at large).


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## army.33

hey i agree fully with you. i have studied bruce lee my entire life and i trained in jeet kune do for 6 yrs and have trained in mma for 3yrs and bruce lee would dominate anyone in mma. reason 1. he was one of the first people to take multiple styles and group them in to one. he would take a persons own energy and use it against them so in essence they would defeat themselves. bruce lee changed martial arts and made it what it is today. and saying that, it is something that could not be defeated. i have the upmost respect for all mma fighters and truly believe the are some of the best in the world. but bruce lee was trained in all the ancient styles and shaolin which is the most dangerous style ever to be produced. so my vote BRUCE LEE HANDS DOWN!!!!


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## michelangelo

Bruce Lee vs. Godzilla. Who takes it?


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## JimmyJames

michelangelo said:


> Bruce Lee vs. Godzilla. Who takes it?


Hard to say since King-Kong would do a run in with a chair and then proceed to clear out the octagon.


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## army.33

let's see. bruce lee , godzilla and king kong. well yes king kong and godzilla are big and strong. but slow and clumsy. bruce is extremly fast and graceful. and knows how to concentrate his energy into his point of attack. also he is very wise and experianced when it comes to fighting. so i say bruce. after all he is the dragon of martial arts. p.s he does have chuck norris as a tag team partner.


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## swpthleg

army.33 said:


> let's see. bruce lee , godzilla and king kong. well yes king kong and godzilla are big and strong. but slow and clumsy. bruce is extremly fast and graceful. and knows how to concentrate his energy into his point of attack. also he is very wise and experianced when it comes to fighting. so i say bruce. after all he is the dragon of martial arts. p.s he does have chuck norris as a tag team partner.


Welcome to the forum.


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## army.33

thank you


----------



## IronMan

army.33 said:


> let's see. bruce lee , godzilla and king kong. well yes king kong and godzilla are big and strong. but slow and clumsy. bruce is extremly fast and graceful. and knows how to concentrate his energy into his point of attack. also he is very wise and experianced when it comes to fighting. so i say bruce. after all he is the dragon of martial arts. p.s he does have chuck norris as a tag team partner.


Repped.

And welcome to the forum.


----------



## army.33

thanks. so who's your favorite fighter?


----------



## Squirrelfighter

Wow, alot of guys were really rude and short with you on this subject...sorry for that. 

Okay man, here's the deal. Bruce Lee is likely the greastest pure martial artist in history, but the fact is dozens of tremendous pure martial artists were wrecked during the Gracie era. 

Why?

Three letters: BJJ. 

A skilled mixed martial artist knows bjj or an equivelant and easily could have defeated Bruce in just the same way the Gracies always did. Put them on the ground and make them tap. I used to think freestyle ground would work. Then I did research and found a trained roller can make an ameteur tap in seconds. Its a sad truth. He might hang with the weaklings, but a skilled MMA fighter would make Bruce Lee tap, probably in the first minute of the fight.


----------



## IronMan

army.33 said:


> thanks. so who's your favorite fighter?


Among active fighters, I like a lot of the really explosive, entertaining strikers. When Wanderlei was younger, he was incredibly exciting.

Anthony Johnson is pretty fun to watch. Anderson Silva is, of course, the greatest striker in the world, and that makes for some pretty awesome displays of skill.

There are a lot of old school fighters that I really like. Oleg Taktarov is really fun to watch, in my opinion.



Squirrelfighter said:


> Wow, alot of guys were really rude and short with you on this subject...sorry for that.
> 
> Okay man, here's the deal. Bruce Lee is likely the greastest pure martial artist in history, but the fact is dozens of tremendous pure martial artists were wrecked during the Gracie era.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Three letters: BJJ.
> 
> A skilled mixed martial artist knows bjj or an equivelant and easily could have defeated Bruce in just the same way the Gracies always did. Put them on the ground and make them tap. I used to think freestyle ground would work. Then I did research and found a trained roller can make an ameteur tap in seconds. Its a sad truth. He might hang with the weaklings, but a skilled MMA fighter would make Bruce Lee tap, probably in the first minute of the fight.


There are plenty of reasons Bruce Lee wouldn't be successful in MMA. This isn't one of them.

For those who know anything about Lee's training and martial philosophy, it's immediately clear that he wasn't a "pure" martial artist in any sense of the word.

He did have a background in ground work, and trained submissions with many of his students, many of whom later became very successful in BJJ (Chuck Norris has a BJJ blackbelt under the Machados).

Calling Lee the "forefather" of MMA is a huge stretch, without any historical accuracy, but so is pretending that he didn't see MMA coming. He talked at length about working outside of traditional systems, and those who've read his notes from Enter the Dragon or (later) The Game of Death know that the films are a study in mixing styles.

I happen to think Helio Gracie was the most innovative martial artist in recent history (if not in history altogether). That said, it's a little silly to assume that the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu guys invented groundfighting, or that Bruce Lee (who had some experience working with some very good old-style judoka, especially once he moved to the United States) didn't have a clue on the ground.


----------



## Squirrelfighter

IronMan said:


> There are plenty of reasons Bruce Lee wouldn't be successful in MMA. This isn't one of them.
> 
> For those who know anything about Lee's training and martial philosophy, it's immediately clear that he wasn't a "pure" martial artist in any sense of the word.
> 
> He did have a background in ground work, and trained submissions with many of his students, many of whom later became very successful in BJJ (Chuck Norris has a BJJ blackbelt under the Machados).
> 
> Calling Lee the "forefather" of MMA is a huge stretch, without any historical accuracy, but so is pretending that he didn't see MMA coming. He talked at length about working outside of traditional systems, and those who've read his notes from Enter the Dragon or (later) The Game of Death know that the films are a study in mixing styles.
> 
> I happen to think Helio Gracie was the most innovative martial artist in recent history (if not in history altogether). That said, it's a little silly to assume that the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu guys invented groundfighting, or that Bruce Lee (who had some experience working with some very good old-style judoka, especially once he moved to the United States) didn't have a clue on the ground.


So Bruce Lee dabbling in mixed martial arts before there even was any kind of organized mixed martial arts, no idea that BJJ or _EQUIVELANT _would be the most defining factor in mixed martial arts, would not have had any effect on his performance? 

Or that because he trained with students who were versed in other arts, that would compensate for the YEARS of ground training from a modern professional MMA practitioner? 

The fact is unless Bruce Lee trainined under a master that would teach him actual ground, rolling and ground submissions, not just takedowns, takedown defense and standing subs he'd tap like everyone else who didn't know ground fighting.


----------



## BobbyCooper

IronMan said:


> For those who know anything about Lee's training and martial philosophy, it's immediately clear that he wasn't a "pure" martial artist in any sense of the word.
> 
> Calling Lee the "forefather" of MMA is a huge stretch, without any historical accuracy, but so is pretending that he didn't see MMA coming.[/FONT]


I think Bruce was a true Mixed Martial Artist at his time, because he trained in mostly all of the aspects MMA has today. Besides his Kung Fu he trained in Boxing, Judo, Wresling different kind of ground fighting "Submissions", Karate even the art of fighting with different kind of weapons. 

He probably didn't knew the word BJJ or what it was. He might have known the Ju jutsu from Japan wich isn't as much ground game as the Brazilian one. 

But Bruce I guess was the guy who invented the word MMA "Mixed Martial Arts" because he was one of the first famous people who brought different kind of Martial Arts togheter, so he called it MMA! There might be some guys who did it before him, but they weren't famous enough to bring it to the public.

I really have no source on this fact, but I am pretty sure that I head him saying the words Mixed Martial Arts before anybody else did it. And nobody knew what it was at this time!


----------



## IronMan

Squirrelfighter said:


> So Bruce Lee dabbling in mixed martial arts before there even was any kind of organized mixed martial arts, no idea that BJJ or _EQUIVELANT _would be the most defining factor in mixed martial arts, would not have had any effect on his performance?


Don't put words in my mouth.

Of course it would effect his performance. Not having seen UFC 1 would affect his performance.

But the guy knew how important groundwork was and (more importantly) he knew how to use it. Was he at the same level of pure grapplers like Rickson or Royce? Of course not.



> Or that because he trained with students who were versed in other arts, that would compensate for the YEARS of ground training from a modern professional MMA practitioner?


I think you're dramatically overestimating the technical grappling proficiency of professional MMA fighters.

Would he be submitted by a BJJ blackbelt? Sure. Probably even a purple or brown belt. But most MMA fighters don't have a deeper understanding of grappling than Lee did, simply because they don't have that deep an understanding of groundfighting.

They know how to apply basic submissions (guillotine, armbar, rear naked choke), but so did Bruce Lee. Technical proficiency in BJJ is not necessary to be a decent competitor in MMA (it is once you get into the top tier, but not at the lower levels).



> The fact is unless Bruce Lee trainined under a master that would teach him actual ground, rolling and ground submissions, not just takedowns, takedown defense and standing subs he'd tap like everyone else who didn't know ground fighting.


I'm going to say what I said before:

He did have a background in ground work.

I know this, because I know who he was working on the mat with. In the late 60's he worked with Haruo Imamura Sensei training in old-style judo and submission fighting. I'd hazard a guess (having trained with Sensei Imamura for two years and high ranking BJJ blackbelts for longer than that) that the education Lee got on the ground would put him at the level of a BJJ purple belt, which is more than can be said for many MMA fighters.



BobbyCooper said:


> He probably didn't knew the word BJJ or what it was. He might have known the Ju jutsu from Japan wich isn't as much ground game as the Brazilian one.


This frustrates me.

All due respect to Helio Gracie, who did work some amazing leverage components into BJJ, and really revolutionized the use of leverage in sweeping and guard passing, most of the submissions in BJJ are taken *directly* from judo.

Lee's experience in judo meant a good deal of training in mat work, pins and submission fighting, especially during the early 60s, before the major rules shifts started banning submissions. Lee would've seen (and, just to be clear, did see) leglocks, armlocks, neck-cranks and chokes which appear at the purple and brown belt levels in most branches of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu training.



> But Bruce I guess was the guy who invented the word MMA "Mixed Martial Arts" because he was one of the first famous people who brought different kind of Martial Arts togheter, so he called it MMA! There might be some guys who did it before him, but they weren't famous enough to bring it to the public.


He didn't call it that. He called it "Jeet Kune Do." But what he called it is really less relevant than what it was.



> I really have no source on this fact, but I am pretty sure that I head him saying the words Mixed Martial Arts before anybody else did it. And nobody knew what it was at this time!


The term mixed martial arts doesn't appear until the mid-90s, when the UFC was looking for a name that would help lend credibility to the sport and remove some of the stigma attached to terms like "toughman" and "freestyle fighting."

So, I doubt you heard it from Bruce Lee twenty-five years before.


----------



## Squirrelfighter

IronMan said:


> Don't put words in my mouth.
> 
> Of course it would effect his performance. Not having seen UFC 1 would affect his performance.
> 
> But the guy knew how important groundwork was and (more importantly) he knew how to use it. Was he at the same level of pure grapplers like Rickson or Royce? Of course not.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're dramatically overestimating the technical grappling proficiency of professional MMA fighters.
> 
> Would he be submitted by a BJJ blackbelt? Sure. Probably even a purple or brown belt. But most MMA fighters don't have a deeper understanding of grappling than Lee did, simply because they don't have that deep an understanding of groundfighting.
> 
> They know how to apply basic submissions (guillotine, armbar, rear naked choke), but so did Bruce Lee. Technical proficiency in BJJ is not necessary to be a decent competitor in MMA (it is once you get into the top tier, but not at the lower levels).
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to say what I said before:
> 
> He did have a background in ground work.
> 
> I know this, because I know who he was working on the mat with. In the late 60's he worked with Haruo Imamura Sensei training in old-style judo and submission fighting. I'd hazard a guess (having trained with Sensei Imamura for two years and high ranking BJJ blackbelts for longer than that) that the education Lee got on the ground would put him at the level of a BJJ purple belt, which is more than can be said for many MMA fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> This frustrates me.
> 
> All due respect to Helio Gracie, who did work some amazing leverage components into BJJ, and really revolutionized the use of leverage in sweeping and guard passing, most of the submissions in BJJ are taken *directly* from judo.
> 
> Lee's experience in judo meant a good deal of training in mat work, pins and submission fighting, especially during the early 60s, before the major rules shifts started banning submissions. Lee would've seen (and, just to be clear, did see) leglocks, armlocks, neck-cranks and chokes which appear at the purple and brown belt levels in most branches of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu training.
> 
> 
> 
> He didn't call it that. He called it "Jeet Kune Do." But what he called it is really less relevant than what it was.
> 
> 
> 
> The term mixed martial arts doesn't appear until the mid-90s, when the UFC was looking for a name that would help lend credibility to the sport and remove some of the stigma attached to terms like "toughman" and "freestyle fighting."
> 
> So, I doubt you heard it from Bruce Lee twenty-five years before.


You said that everything I said would have had no effect on his performance, yet everything you just said was in countance to your previous thought. But we can now agree I was right that his lack of proficiency in BJJ would have hindered him against legitimate MMA fighters, not wannabes and poseurs who only know enough to boast about it. :sarcastic12:

And sorry BobbieCooper, he's right most of BJJ came from a judoka-can't remember his name-who learned it in Japan before returning to Brazil, I think he was originally from there, where it was altered to a degree to become original BJJ. But you were right ina roundabout since Judo is based on Japanese Jujitsu 

And he was just postulating, IronMan, that it was originally called Mixed Martial Arts. 

Also on a lighter note, I actually didn't know Jeet Kun Do was his art. Thanks for the info.:thumb02:


----------



## BobbyCooper

IronMan said:


> He didn't call it that. He called it "Jeet Kune Do." But what he called it is really less relevant than what it was.
> 
> The term mixed martial arts doesn't appear until the mid-90s, when the UFC was looking for a name that would help lend credibility to the sport and remove some of the stigma attached to terms like "toughman" and "freestyle fighting."
> 
> So, I doubt you heard it from Bruce Lee twenty-five years before.


No I just found the part again in an very old interview where he tells the host what Martial Art is all about. He knew the saying Martial Art, he didn't called it "Mixed" Martial Arts back then only Martial Art! 

I think I just post you the link for the video..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXOtmhA6Nvw

skip to min 3 and than play than he starts talking about what he calls Martial Art! And what it really is all about.


----------



## BobbyCooper

Squirrelfighter said:


> And sorry BobbyCooper, he's right most of BJJ came from a judoka-can't remember his name-who learned it in Japan before returning to Brazil, I think he was originally from there, where it was altered to a degree to become original BJJ. But you were right ina roundabout since Judo is based on Japanese Jujitsu


I never questioned that! I just think that Bruce didn't know what BJJ was at that time. He probably knew the Japanese form Jujitsu wich isn't so much ground fighting than BJJ. But yea I know that BJJ is coming from Judo.


----------



## Squirrelfighter

BobbyCooper said:


> I never questioned that! I just think that Bruce didn't know what BJJ was at that time. He probably knew the Japanese form Jujitsu wich isn't so much ground fighting than BJJ. But yea I know that BJJ is coming from Judo.


Arright man, sorry. I didn't mean to insult you or anything. I was just saying. But yeah I would agree with you on the Japanese Jujitsu being more likely than Brazilian.ray01:


----------



## IronMan

Squirrelfighter said:


> You said that everything I said would have had no effect on his performance, yet everything you just said was in countance to your previous thought. But we can now agree I was right that his lack of proficiency in BJJ would have hindered him against legitimate MMA fighters, not wannabes and poseurs who only know enough to boast about it. :sarcastic12:


You're confusing BJJ with submission fighting.

Of course Bruce Lee wasn't proficient in BJJ ("Brazilian" Jiu-Jitsu is a term that doesn't emerge until after the Humaita-Gracie Barra split, at which point Lee would've been dead for almost ten years). He was proficient in submission fighting, as a student of old judo.

I'm not just talking about the guys who wear TapouT t-shirts to the bar.

There's a huge number of MMA fighters who don't have a background in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at all. Matt Hughes has bluebelt level BJJ (and will admit to it). Phil Baroni, Robbie Lawler, Don Frye, Mark Coleman and many of the old school guys never learned jiu-jitsu.

But even in this generation of fighters, there's still a huge number of athletes who compete at the white, blue or purple belt levels in BJJ. Anthony Johnson, Cheick Kongo, Antoni Hardonk and so on. And these are just the guys with mild groundgames. I'm ignoring the guys who are really abysmal grapplers (like Houston Alexander).



> And sorry BobbieCooper, he's right most of BJJ came from a judoka-can't remember his name-who learned it in Japan before returning to Brazil, I think he was originally from there, where it was altered to a degree to become original BJJ. But you were right ina roundabout since Judo is based on Japanese Jujitsu


Judo is based on Japanese Jiu-Jitsu in the same way that tae-kwon-do is based on hapkido. There are some loose similarities in the system, but many of the substantial techniques are seriously altered or removed altogether.

Comparing old judo to Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, they really look nothing alike. Old judo looks more like ***** than it does Japanese Jiu-Jitsu.

Modern sport judo looks even less like Japanese jiu-jitsu. Of course, that's because they took all of the really awesome stuff from old judo (kneebars, neck cranks, and so on) out.



> And he was just postulating, IronMan, that it was originally called Mixed Martial Arts.


No, he wasn't. He made a claim (with an exclamation point and everything):



> But Bruce I guess was the guy who invented the word MMA "Mixed Martial Arts" because he was one of the first famous people who brought different kind of Martial Arts togheter, so he called it MMA! There might be some guys who did it before him, but they weren't famous enough to bring it to the public.


And, like I said, the term "mixed martial arts" comes out of the UFC's PR campaign in the mid-90's.

Which is why Bruce used the term "martial art" in the interview.

Of course, I agree with the general sentiment, which is that Bruce knew where this was going to end up.



> Also on a lighter note, I actually didn't know Jeet Kun Do was his art. Thanks for the info.:thumb02:


Yeah. The Tao of Jeet Kun Do is a good read. I recommend it.

Of course, Bruce would probably resent the way that JKD is taught today, as someone who was not a big fan of standardizing systems. I like to think he'd prefer MMA instruction.


----------



## Squirrelfighter

Okay I'm gonna admit defeat at this point. I've pretty much exhausted all of my knowledge of ground fighting and you seem to remain raring to go. I will accept you as grappling knowledge king.

But just so I still feel okay, I'll insert that Hapkido is also based on Japanese Jujitsu...Its one of those arts like Kung Fu, every damn thing can be traced back to it!

Ill check out the Tao of Jeet Kun Do.


----------



## swpthleg

I don't see how a primarily self-defense art is based on a grappling art.


----------



## BobbyCooper

IronMan said:


> And, like I said, the term "mixed martial arts" comes out of the UFC's PR campaign in the mid-90's.
> 
> Which is why Bruce used the term "martial art" in the interview.


Sorry Ironman but I don't know what you are trying to tell me with this? I am kinda confused now lol

I believe you that the term *"Mixed"* Martial Art comes from the UFC PR campaign. 

But do you think the saying Martial Art comes from Bruce or do you think it was already there :confused02: What confuses me so much is that the host asked Bruce that he should explain what he means with the meaning Martial Art. So I guess he had no clue.. right??


----------



## Squirrelfighter

"Hapkido has its origins in the Japanese martial art of Daito-ryu Aiki-Jujutsu (“Big Sword School of Aiki-Jujutsu”). This was a martial art that was developed not for the battlefield, but as a means of self-defense for warriors inside a palace when they were unarmed. The founder of the art was Shinra Saburo Minamoto no Yoshimitsu (1045-1127) who lived in an estate named Daito (the name of the style was taken from the place of origin). The art was passed down (often secretly) through many generations of his descendants, until Takeda Sokaku (1859-1943) began teaching it publicly. He traveled extensively giving seminars and is said to have had 30,000 students during his lifetime. Daito-ryu influenced the development of the styles of Aikido and Hapkido"

http://www.iowahapkido.org/history/history.htm

Here's the link to the site as well.


----------



## army.33

i appreciate all the feedback and opinoins on this subject. i agree with everyone to a point. you are saying that bruce didn't have a whole lot of ground experiance. well first of, if you find a jeet kune do instructer who truly knows the art you would come to see that it has a great deal of ground trianing. now it does focus more on the stand-up aspect of the martial arts, but bruce had a uniqe gift that very few fighters even understands these days. he has the ability to stand and adapt to almost any martial art at any time. that is one of the things that made him so dangerous. another thing that you have to take into account is his speed and knock-out power. it's very hard to submit someone when you get ko'd before you can get to the ground. now i do believe that if he was still alive that he would of changed alot in his style and added alot more ground work and most likely would have trained with the gracies (who i have a great deal of respect for)because that's just who he was. now do i think that he would be submitted in the first minute? absolutely not. bruce was alot smarter than that and too fast. he lived and breathed martial arts, that is what he built his life around. i think if he was still alive he would have adapted and done very well in mma. it's just a shame we will never be able to find out for sure.


----------



## IronMan

BobbyCooper said:


> Sorry Ironman but I don't know what you are trying to tell me with this? I am kinda confused now lol
> 
> I believe you that the term *"Mixed"* Martial Art comes from the UFC PR campaign.
> 
> But do you think the saying Martial Art comes from Bruce or do you think it was already there :confused02: What confuses me so much is that the host asked Bruce that he should explain what he means with the meaning Martial Art. So I guess he had no clue.. right??


I wasn't responding to your comment, which may be why you're confused.

My point is that Lee knew something like mixed martial arts was coming (that it was a next step for the martial arts), but that he didn't use the term, because it didn't exist yet.

I think the Tao of Jeet Kune Do outlines the basis for a mixed martial arts system like what we see in a lot of camps, but I don't think Bruce Lee expected it commercialized and turned into a sport. I'm actually not sure how he'd feel about that.



Squirrelfighter said:


> "Hapkido has its origins in the Japanese martial art of Daito-ryu Aiki-Jujutsu (“Big Sword School of Aiki-Jujutsu”). This was a martial art that was developed not for the battlefield, but as a means of self-defense for warriors inside a palace when they were unarmed. The founder of the art was Shinra Saburo Minamoto no Yoshimitsu (1045-1127) who lived in an estate named Daito (the name of the style was taken from the place of origin). The art was passed down (often secretly) through many generations of his descendants, until Takeda Sokaku (1859-1943) began teaching it publicly. He traveled extensively giving seminars and is said to have had 30,000 students during his lifetime. Daito-ryu influenced the development of the styles of Aikido and Hapkido"
> 
> http://www.iowahapkido.org/history/history.htm
> 
> Here's the link to the site as well.


Yeah, that's pretty much the history I'm familiar with.

Hapkido is weird because there are a few lineages that influence it during the Japanese occupation of Korea, but I think it's fair to say that Sokaku Takeda had a pretty major effect on the style.



army.33 said:


> i appreciate all the feedback and opinoins on this subject. i agree with everyone to a point. you are saying that bruce didn't have a whole lot of ground experiance. well first of, if you find a jeet kune do instructer who truly knows the art you would come to see that it has a great deal of ground trianing. now it does focus more on the stand-up aspect of the martial arts, but bruce had a uniqe gift that very few fighters even understands these days. he has the ability to stand and adapt to almost any martial art at any time. that is one of the things that made him so dangerous. another thing that you have to take into account is his speed and knock-out power. it's very hard to submit someone when you get ko'd before you can get to the ground. now i do believe that if he was still alive that he would of changed alot in his style and added alot more ground work and most likely would have trained with the gracies (who i have a great deal of respect for)because that's just who he was. now do i think that he would be submitted in the first minute? absolutely not. bruce was alot smarter than that and too fast. he lived and breathed martial arts, that is what he built his life around. i think if he was still alive he would have adapted and done very well in mma. it's just a shame we will never be able to find out for sure.


Keep in mind that Bruce would have had some issues with the commission. There are substantial claims that he used anabolic steroids, and if that's true, then he'd have some serious issues getting sanctioned.


----------



## BobbyCooper

IronMan said:


> I wasn't responding to your comment, which may be why you're confused.
> 
> My point is that Lee knew something like mixed martial arts was coming (that it was a next step for the martial arts), but that he didn't use the term, because it didn't exist yet.
> 
> I think the Tao of Jeet Kune Do outlines the basis for a mixed martial arts system like what we see in a lot of camps, but I don't think Bruce Lee expected it commercialized and turned into a sport. I'm actually not sure how he'd feel about that.


Oh ok! 

I hope I will find it out someday!


----------



## swpthleg

I'm amazed. I've heard over and over that he was "all-natural." 

It wouldn't surprise me unduly, however. He was pretty ripped.


----------



## IronMan

swpthleg said:


> I'm amazed. I've heard over and over that he was "all-natural."
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me unduly, however. He was pretty ripped.


Tom Bleeker's book Unsettled Matters lays out what I think is a pretty good argument that Lee was on steroids in the early 60s. Some of his speculation is kind of extreme, but I think that one particular bit of the text is pretty close.

Lee's bodyfat index and build, for a guy his size, is ridiculous, but steroid use also fits with some of the emotional issues, and some of the health issues. It's a pretty convincing argument, but I won't say it's a fact.


----------



## machidaisgod

C'mon with his heart, unwillingness to lose given all odds, and radioactive breath ray, gotta go with the G-zilla killa.


----------



## army.33

i do not agree at all that he was using steriods. just because he was really ripped means jackshit. he was a complete natrual person. and had a very strict training schedule. 90% of his time was spent training and doing whatever he could to make him a better martial artist and a better person. to even think about those aqusations is a huge insult to all that he stood for and all his fans. and you should feel ashamed to even think that.


----------



## IronMan

army.33 said:


> i do not agree at all that he was using steriods. just because he was really ripped means jackshit. he was a complete natrual person. and had a very strict training schedule. 90% of his time was spent training and doing whatever he could to make him a better martial artist and a better person. to even think about those aqusations is a huge insult to all that he stood for and all his fans. and you should feel ashamed to even think that.


The BMI for a guy who's 5'6, though, shouldn't be as high as Lee's almost certainly was.

Before you get defensive, you should actually read the book and take a look at the argument.

No figure is transcendent. Everyone has issues.


----------



## No_Mercy

I ******* hate these threads. How about this for thought. What if any MMA fighter transferred back to the 60's and 70's with ONLY the knowledge of certain Martial arts at that time and see how they would fair. It's a completely different generation. Further more Bruce Lee is the Godfather if not a major catalyst for what MMA is today. His assimilation into MMA would come at ease. He moves like Machida, but is a "student master." Actually he would be the first true kung fu practioner which would be pretty dope. I have no doubt in my mind with proper training he could take on any contenders.


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## army.33

true but you need to look at the type of training he went through everyday. he realized that you can get the body to do anything you want it too, you just have to have the motivation and determination to do it. bruce lee's single most important goal was to be the best that he could be. and that's why he trained with so many different people. he had it down to a science from what kind of workouts he did to what he ate every day. if you look into body building you'll see that it's possible to lower your bmi signifantly. he was totally focused onhow he did everything and that's why he had the type of body that he did.


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## TeaCupExplosion

Bruce Lee vs. Chuck Norris. Who will prevail?


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## nathan.keith

In a fight between Lee and any fighter in the world the winner would be Chuck Norris.raise01: Thank god Chuck doesn't fight for sport he only fights for vengence.


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## mrdann

Hi! I am a newbie also here, I agree on your observasion, the best training is conditioning the mind and body and also the simple anology is this when there is a rolling rock going towards you, you should not stop it instead let it roll away avoid it, just what Brucelee do, avoid the opponents blow and use the oponent energy to counter, there is no need lifting heavy weights to be strong in order to strike the weak parts of human anatomy, this is what we called nerve block techniques, we can strike this weak points to imobilize opponents in just using thumb


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## HitOrGetHit

nathan.keith said:


> In a fight between Lee and any fighter in the world the winner would be Chuck Norris.raise01: Thank god Chuck doesn't fight for sport he only fights for vengence.





mrdann said:


> Hi! I am a newbie also here, I agree on your observasion, the best training is conditioning the mind and body and also the simple anology is this when there is a rolling rock going towards you, you should not stop it instead let it roll away avoid it, just what Brucelee do, avoid the opponents blow and use the oponent energy to counter, there is no need lifting heavy weights to be strong in order to strike the weak parts of human anatomy, this is what we called nerve block techniques, we can strike this weak points to imobilize opponents in just using thumb



Welcome to the forum. :thumbsup:


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## army.33

bruce lee would throttle chuck. for two reasons. 

1. when bruce and chuck met they were at a tournament and were staying at the same hotel. chuck challenged bruce to test his skills, and bruce wiped the floor with him. now no taking anything from chuck, he is an amazing martial artist and one of my favorites. 

2. chuck actually admits that bruce would beat him a match and that he would not stand a chance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH7D8-eXsnM, check this link out and draw your own conclusions.


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## JimmyJames

I want this thread to die in a tragic thread killing fire


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## army.33

well good for you. there's plenty of other threads to talk on, so take your dumbass some where else. you punk bitch!!!!!!!


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## swpthleg

army.33 said:


> well good for you. there's plenty of other threads to talk on, so take your dumbass some where else. you punk bitch!!!!!!!


Please don't insult other members.


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## army.33

welcome to the forum. that's exactly right, bruce lee's whole philosphy for his Jeet Kune Do was all about that. one of my favorite bruce lee quotes is empty your mind, be formless shapeless, like water, you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup, you put it into a tea pot it becomes the teapot. now water can creep, or drip or crash, be water my friend. and i think that says everything about how he lived his life and portrayed his martial arts.


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## mrdann

he he Chuck Norris is one of Lee's student


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## Skywalker

*Bruce Lee can fight UFC fighters*

Many of you have posted some good reviews about Bruce Lees abilities and strengths. I am confident Mr.Lee is capable of fighting any UFC fighter. I personally witnessed how fast and strong he is, in terms of his fighting skills. I was at his Long Beach tournament, when he demonstrated the one inch punch and grappling techniques. He can easily counter strike with extreme force and accuracy. The UFC fighters of today have good martial art skills, but their fitness and power would be no match for Mr.Lee. Most fighter in the UFC throw looping punches and are wide open at times. They also become sloppy, giving themselves to easy telegraphed punches and kicks. If you notice, most of the UFC fighter use street tactics, not actual material arts skills. This would be a problem if they face someone like Bruce in the ring. His counter punching and quick hand speed would be blinding to the opponent. In addition, his combination of kicks, would break down the fighter, causing extreme exhaustion in trying to block every strike. My respect for those that fight in the UFC, because it takes a lot of training and preparation to survive against a tough opponent, but in all actuality Bruce Lee is not just an actor but the real thing.....


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## Sousa

Bruce Lee ain't got no ground game!


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## Liddellianenko

Skywalker said:


> Many of you have posted some good reviews about Bruce Lees abilities and strengths. I am confident Mr.Lee is capable of fighting any UFC fighter. I personally witnessed how fast and strong he is, in terms of his fighting skills. * I was at his Long Beach tournament, when he demonstrated the one inch punch * and grappling techniques. He can easily counter strike with extreme force and accuracy. The UFC fighters of today have good martial art skills, but their fitness and power would be no match for Mr.Lee. Most fighter in the UFC throw looping punches and are wide open at times. They also become sloppy, giving themselves to easy telegraphed punches and kicks. If you notice, most of the UFC fighter use street tactics, not actual material arts skills. This would be a problem if they face someone like Bruce in the ring. His counter punching and quick hand speed would be blinding to the opponent. In addition, his combination of kicks, would break down the fighter, causing extreme exhaustion in trying to block every strike. My respect for those that fight in the UFC, because it takes a lot of training and preparation to survive against a tough opponent, but in all actuality Bruce Lee is not just an actor but the real thing.....


The one inch punch is a cheap parlor trick that any 8 year old could do. The trick is to have your volunteer stand with his legs square together. Look at the demos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx9iPFMriz0

No one in a real fight stands like that, that is the most unbalanced position ever; the smallest push will topple you over. Try it. Add a chair directly behind your feet, and it even takes away the natural instinct to step back to balance.

People in a fight will always stand with one leg behind the other, either directly behind or at an angle. That is just the natural stance ... and fighters will have even better stance and balance.

Of course if you add a willing accomplice who not just topples over but makes all kinds of painful gestures and noises like you just smashed through 20 lungs ... well then you have the makings of great theater. This kind of charlatan BS is what builds up legends.


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## Skywalker

How old are you? You may not understand the power Mr. Lee has, and when you mention he has no ground game, it is incorrect. Bruce has a ground game and I have witnessed it live. The man can easily handle any position or submission hold. In today's UFC, many fighters are taught how to fight on the ground, but you will notice alot of it is Mr.Lees, grappling holds. UFC derived from Bruce Lee's motion picture Enter the Dragon. You will see the opening fight scene when he is using UFC style gloves and trunks. He may be gone, but reassure he would have been extremely dangerous and competitive.


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## Skywalker

You seem very confident of the one inch punch theory, but of course you probably never seen it live nor understood the mechanics. In the UFC, the one in punch may not be an optional thing to do, but remember this Bruce Lee quickness and accuracy would become problematic for those that stood in front of him. I am sure you have your opinions, but Mr.Lee was considered the most dangerous man in the world.


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## IronMan

Ugh. The resurrection of this thread is going to turn into something like the retarded nephew of Frankenstein pretty quickly.



Skywalker said:


> Many of you have posted some good reviews about Bruce Lees abilities and strengths. I am confident Mr.Lee *is* capable of fighting any UFC fighter.


You realize he's been dead for a well over a quarter of a century, right?

As far as I'm concerned, that's like saying that Kyuzo Mifune would dominate grappling. I have mad respect for Master Mifune. I consider him the greatest judoka since Kano, but the world is so much more complicated, it's much messier than it was when he was around.

Sure, if he'd had access to all of the resources that a guy like Roger Gracie has, or the training methods and variety of styles that are available to the contemporary, he'd have been great. But he came from a time where the technology and the technique were, simply, less developed than they are now.

Bruce Lee is no different.



> I personally witnessed how fast and strong he is, in terms of his fighting skills. I was at his Long Beach tournament, when he demonstrated the one inch punch and grappling techniques. He can easily counter strike with extreme force and accuracy.


So what?

When I was in high school, I saw Andre Ward compete and train. He can counter strikes with extreme power.

The mythology surrounding the one-inch-punch irritates me. It's a cool technique. It's different than what we're used to. Is it messianic? Hell no. It's a strike that demands a particular set of circumstances to be effective and, realistically, there are a huge number of circumstances in which the technique is completely irrelevant.

As far as Bruce's grappling, I realize that people are really impressed with it, and that's fine. It's not anywhere near the same level as the grappling technicians of the day, guys like Kimura and Helio Gracie. The grapplers of today, who are much better, would demolish Lee, even in his own weight class.



> The UFC fighters of today have good martial art skills, but their fitness and power would be no match for Mr.Lee.


Seriously, you have to be delusional if you think that Bruce was, at any point in his life, in better shape than a Brock Lesnar or a Georges St. Pierre. Bruce's supplements are irrelevant, in my opinion, but there are athletes in MMA who would simply blow Bruce out. There's a level of inflation in terms of athleticism that people totally forget about.



> Most fighter in the UFC throw looping punches and are wide open at times. They also become sloppy, giving themselves to easy telegraphed punches and kicks.


The lack of technical standup in MMA fighters is something well worth pointing out. So is the enormous size difference between Bruce and essentially any fighter currently active in the UFC.

Even if we're just talking about the average UFC fighter, we're talking about a guy with a wrestling background, a chin and some solid punching power. All of those things are a problem for Bruce.



> If you notice, most of the UFC fighter use street tactics, not actual material arts skills.


This statement is just plain wrong.



> His counter punching and quick hand speed would be blinding to the opponent.


Yeah, because there are no guys in MMA who have phenomenal counter punching. :sarcastic12:



> In addition, his combination of kicks, would break down the fighter, causing extreme exhaustion in trying to block every strike.


He hits about 5% as hard as someone like Antoni Hardonk. We're talking about an open weight conversation with the UFC.


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## Skywalker

Interesting how you analyize every quote, but have no real backing to it. Your way of explaining things is somewhat in a inexperienced level. I have many years in the material arts and boxing, and from what I have seen so far, not impressed. Their is no real technical skills nor proper training that shows when these guys fight. The fighter of today, are hyped and of course about money. So, before you start comparing amature fighters to Bruce Lee, make sure you have real conclusive facts. Let's get realistic your conversation is one of many I have had, you all have the same thing in common, nothing.............


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## IronMan

Skywalker said:


> How old are you? You may not understand the power Mr. Lee has, and when you mention he has no ground game, it is incorrect. Bruce has a ground game and I have witnessed it live. The man can easily handle any position or submission hold. In today's UFC, many fighters are taught how to fight on the ground, but you will notice alot of it is Mr.Lees, grappling holds. UFC derived from Bruce Lee's motion picture Enter the Dragon.


This is inexplicably dense and completely and objectively wrong.

Firstly, the techniques which now populate MMA do not, in any way shape or form, descend from the techniques in JKD. Bruce used some very, very rudimentary judo, but living at the same time was the fellow responsible for spawning the generation that would bring those techniques into the collective consciousness of MMA: Helio Gracie.

As for the UFC being derived from Enter the Dragon, this is monumentally moronic.

It was founded by Rorion Gracie and a number of promoters he managed to get together to put the event together. All of this stuff is common knowledge, so you're missing the ball on this is totally baffling.

Besides, anyone who knows anything about martial arts movies knows that the early UFC most closely resemble JCVD's Bloodsport. That's not really relevant, though.

But I've saved the most irritating bit for last:



> You will see the opening fight scene when he is using UFC style gloves and trunks. He may be gone, but reassure he would have been extremely dangerous and competitive.


You understand that when the UFC was created, *there were no gloves* and guys competed in everything from the gis used by their style to, basically, speedos?

This is really, really, dense.



Skywalker said:


> Interesting how you analyize every quote, but have no real backing to it. Your way of explaining things is somewhat in a inexperienced level. I have many years in the material arts and boxing, and from what I have seen so far, not impressed. Their is no real technical skills nor proper training that shows when these guys fight. The fighter of today, are hyped and of course about money. So, before you start comparing amature fighters to Bruce Lee, make sure you have real conclusive facts. Let's get realistic your conversation is one of many I have had, you all have the same thing in common, nothing.............


I analyzed every part of your post because there was too much stupid to let it sit in a single, dense paragraph. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mock you for being so obviously wrong.

As far as the substance goes, what would you like me to articulate more clearly? What would you like more thoroughly substantiated? Seriously. I'm happy to do it.

I don't think I compared any amateur fighters to Bruce Le, though I did mention seeing Andre Ward box before he had gone pro. Of course, he went on to be an Olympian not too long after I saw him train, and I don't really consider Olympians "amateurs" in the pejorative sense, just the logistical.

Seriously, dude, I hate getting into conversations with trolls, but this is one post where you really are just aiming to make yourself look like a jackass, so it makes this reasonably enjoyable.


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## Skywalker

*Bruce Lee can fight UFC fighters*

After reviewing some of the posts replied, I came to the assumption that this is what Bruce Lee encountered in his life with other material artists. Many in the Asian community and American practitioners of the martial arts felt his style and methods were easily incorrect and that many could defeat him in a sparring match. That became evident in Long Beach tournament, when some tried to disclaim his methods and philosophy. He proved many wrong and a following of martial artists took to his ideas.


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## IronMan

Skywalker said:


> After reviewing some of the posts replied, I came to the assumption that this is what Bruce Lee encountered in his life with other material artists. Many in the Asian community and American practitioners of the martial arts felt his style and methods were easily incorrect and that many could defeat him in a sparring match. That became evident in Long Beach tournament, when some tried to disclaim his methods and philosophy. He proved many wrong and a following of martial artists took to his ideas.


Seriously, dude.

Like, who?

Bruce Lee had some wonderful students, and some of them are very prominent figures in the martial arts community, but, realistically, the world of martial arts right now (while different because of Lee, to be sure) hardly descends from his lineage.

But since I'm the "insubstantial" guy, lets do some substance.

The modern world of grappling martial arts (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo and... maybe... wrestling) are influenced by Lee not at all. In fact, BJJ and Judo are influenced heavily by two contemporaries of Lee (who I already mentions; Kimura and Helio) and styles of wrestling in the modern world descends, if from any singular figure, then from Dan Gable (Folkstyle), Alexander Medved (Freestyle) and Alexander Karelin (Greco-Roman) and if these guys are not their most profound influences, they are certainly their demigods.

Similarly, the world of striking martial arts doesn't really trace its lineage back to Lee. Now, I'm an expert on grappling, and not on striking, but my knowledge of contemporary kickboxing (full contact) and point sparring is alright, and there aren't any major dynasties in those sports that I'm aware of who trace their lineage back to Lee.

This is where the state of the world of martial arts is right now, so if you could please show me where these guys are who trace their training back to Lee is, I'd really appreciate it.

MMA is much the same, though I don't feel like I particularly have to defend that point. There are a grand total of 0 JKD fighters in the UFC right now. While you can try and argue (and I'm being generous and giving this to you) that the Tao of JKD sets a precedent for MMA, all of the evidence regarding the start of MMA indicates that whatever Bruce said about the future of martial arts as being comprehensive and blended together was (while an accurate prediction) entirely without consequence.


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## Skywalker

*Bruce Lee can fight UFC fighters*

Thank you for commenting back on my post. You mention like who has he encountered in the martial arts world and challenged him. Many practitioners from all walks of life during his golden age, have come to him, to test his philosophy and skill. Most have fallen, trying to disprove his methods. There is a documentary about Bruce Lee and which covers a wide range of unanswered questions. It also provides some good incite to why he never competed. In addition, Chuck Norris has a small documentary about Bruce Lee and the things he knew about him as a friend and actor. He explains why Bruce Lee was well sought out for his ideas and ways. Please do take the time in doing some research, you will find why I can say, he will remain an icon and a brother to the martial arts.


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## swpthleg

Did you mean insight?


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## leifdawg

IronMan said:


> Seriously, dude.
> 
> Like, who?
> 
> Bruce Lee had some wonderful students, and some of them are very prominent figures in the martial arts community, but, realistically, the world of martial arts right now (while different because of Lee, to be sure) hardly descends from his lineage.
> 
> But since I'm the "insubstantial" guy, lets do some substance.
> 
> The modern world of grappling martial arts (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo and... maybe... wrestling) are influenced by Lee not at all. In fact, BJJ and Judo are influenced heavily by two contemporaries of Lee (who I already mentions; Kimura and Helio) and styles of wrestling in the modern world descends, if from any singular figure, then from Dan Gable (Folkstyle), Alexander Medved (Freestyle) and Alexander Karelin (Greco-Roman) and if these guys are not their most profound influences, they are certainly their demigods.
> 
> Similarly, the world of striking martial arts doesn't really trace its lineage back to Lee. Now, I'm an expert on grappling, and not on striking, but my knowledge of contemporary kickboxing (full contact) and point sparring is alright, and there aren't any major dynasties in those sports that I'm aware of who trace their lineage back to Lee.
> 
> This is where the state of the world of martial arts is right now, so if you could please show me where these guys are who trace their training back to Lee is, I'd really appreciate it.
> 
> MMA is much the same, though I don't feel like I particularly have to defend that point. There are a grand total of 0 JKD fighters in the UFC right now. While you can try and argue (and I'm being generous and giving this to you) that the Tao of JKD sets a precedent for MMA, all of the evidence regarding the start of MMA indicates that whatever Bruce said about the future of martial arts as being comprehensive and blended together was (while an accurate prediction) entirely without consequence.


One slight correction. Assuming Ben Saunders is still on the roster, he claims to be a JKD practitioner. Although from watching his fights I would classify him as a Muay Thai fighter.


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## IronMan

Skywalker said:


> Thank you for commenting back on my post. You mention like who has he encountered in the martial arts world and challenged him. Many practitioners from all walks of life during his golden age, have come to him, to test his philosophy and skill. Most have fallen, trying to disprove his methods. There is a documentary about Bruce Lee and which covers a wide range of unanswered questions. It also provides some good incite to why he never competed. In addition, Chuck Norris has a small documentary about Bruce Lee and the things he knew about him as a friend and actor. He explains why Bruce Lee was well sought out for his ideas and ways. Please do take the time in doing some research, you will find why I can say, he will remain an icon and a brother to the martial arts.


So, you brought up one name, Chuck Norris. And I'm happy to cite Chuck Norris as one of the martial artists who was influenced substantially by Lee. But, and this is a huge "but," Chuck Norris was a multiple time world champion in karate, and won the Black Belt's Fighter of the Year award (which, believe it or not, is pretty damned prestigious) before he even met Lee.

After Lee died, Chuck worked with Carlos Machado (who speaks very highly of both Bruce and Chuck, but acknowledges that Norris' ground skills were, simply, bad at the time Chuck started working with him) and now holds what a blackbelt (or at least a high brownbelt) under Carlos.

So, sure, we can talk about how Chuck was seriously influenced by Bruce Lee. 

I'm happy to assert that, without Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris would not be a pop-culture icon. But he was a legend in martial arts long before Bruce came around.

The documentary you're referencing, I'm assuming, is Bruce Lee: The Legend, It's a good film, and a number of guys that were influenced by Lee in terms of their martial arts skills appear in the film, so I'm a little surprised you still can't name any of them.

To say that Bruce Lee "never competed" is incredibly misleading, though people often say that. I grew up in the martial arts community in Oakland, and there are many there who still remember fondly Bruce Lee's fights with members of the Asian martial arts community, which occurred, largely, because of his decision to accept non-Asian students. He fought in competitive settings many times, but he never entered the tournament circuit like many of his contemporaries: Chuck Norris or Skipper Mullins or Allen Steen. But he competed privately and often in public exhibitions, and those are well documented.

As far as my research goes, I've been studying the history of martial arts for as long as I've been training in them. It goes with the territory. I grew up in a culture that idolized Lee, and I hold him in very high esteem, but there's something irritating about those who deify him, or any other martial artist, as it runs contrary to what makes the martial arts a truly beautiful enterprise: if you work hard, if you push through the pain, you can be one of those guys. There are people who are predisposed towards being superior athletes, but that's not what the martial arts are about, and we see that in guys like Lee, so talking about him like he is a revolutionary figure in martial arts is (a) completely false in terms of the history and (b) counterproductive to the study of martial arts generally.



leifdawg said:


> One slight correction. Assuming Ben Saunders is still on the roster, he claims to be a JKD practitioner. Although from watching his fights I would classify him as a Muay Thai fighter.


He is on the roster. I've never heard Ben referred to as a JKD practitioner, but I don't really pay attention to the ring entrances anymore.

He is listed that way by his wikipedia article.

Still, that's a little weird, given that he trains at ATT, where there is no JKD program. My understanding has been that his primary training has taken place (because of his build) under Liborio and Runsgawang at ATT Florida. Still, it may very well be that he had a JKD background before moving to ATT.

My assumption was that Luke Cummo, who is in essentially retirement now, was the only active JKD fighter left in the organization. If Saunders is, then obviously, there's still one.


----------



## TraMaI

leifdawg said:


> One slight correction. Assuming Ben Saunders is still on the roster, he claims to be a JKD practitioner. Although from watching his fights I would classify him as a Muay Thai fighter.


JKD is not a STYLE of Martial Arts, it is a philosophy. Technically speaking every single Mixed Martial Artist is a practitioner of JKD. The only thing JKD is is the philosophy of "Use what works and discard what doesn't."

Also, IronMan, Ben said he was a JKD fighter on TUF, so it was probably well before he went to ATT.


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## IronMan

TraMaI said:


> JKD is not a STYLE of Martial Arts, it is a philosophy.


I don't entirely disagree, but you have to understand that this is a controversial statement.

While Bruce probably wouldn't have supported the institutionalization of a "style" of JKD, there are a number of students, including the Bruce Lee Foundation, who use the term to refer to a fighting system.



> Technically speaking every single Mixed Martial Artist is a practitioner of JKD. The only thing JKD is is the philosophy of "Use what works and discard what doesn't."


Again, you have to make the distinction between the institutionalized style which is based in a lineage traced back to Lee (though not very far) and the philosophy outlined in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

While I agree that JKD can be viewed as a style, if we're going to say that "JKD is the philosophy of keeping what works and discarding what doesn't," then basically every truly revolutionary martial artist is a JKD practitioner, including guys like Kano, whether they've heard of Bruce, or even lived a century before him.

I don't mind reflecting on the significance and brilliance of Bruce's philosophy of budo, but that's not how we determine the impact that a master has on the world of martial arts. Rather, we look at the way they change subsequent generations stylistically, and (as I've already said) Bruce's impact in that respect is pretty minimal.



> Also, IronMan, Ben said he was a JKD fighter on TUF, so it was probably well before he went to ATT.


Yeah, that makes more sense. I'd have to go back and watch TUF 6 to see for myself, but I'm happy to take your word for it.


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## HitOrGetHit

It definitely makes more sense that he trained JKD before he went to ATT because I go to the same gym that he does here in Orlando and there is definitely no JKD class.. Unless they are keeping it a secret. :dunno:


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## tecnotut

Skywalker said:


> I personally witnessed how fast and strong [Bruce Lee] is, in terms of his fighting skills.


But you've still never seen him *FIGHT*, and there's no footage of him fighting anyone. We only hear of a few eyewitness accounts of him fighting random guys off the street or against an opponent we know absolutely nothing about. The only footage we've seen of him "fighting" is the black and white film where he dons a helmet and pads and spars against a no-body. Suffice to say, it was boring footage. I've seen Anderson Silva do more much wondrous things with his striking.

But even if we were to assume Lee's striking is greater than Anderson's or anyone else's, what makes you think he can defend against a takedown from Brock? Or defend a submission from Fedor? We have no reason to believe Lee had any ground game at all. The rest of your post is based on unsubstantiated opinion.


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## Sousa

Skywalker said:


> How old are you? You may not understand the power Mr. Lee has, and when you mention he has no ground game, it is incorrect. Bruce has a ground game and I have witnessed it live. The man can easily handle any position or submission hold. In today's UFC, many fighters are taught how to fight on the ground, but you will notice alot of it is Mr.Lees, grappling holds. UFC derived from Bruce Lee's motion picture Enter the Dragon. You will see the opening fight scene when he is using UFC style gloves and trunks. He may be gone, but reassure he would have been extremely dangerous and competitive.


It was a joke relax

and btw the one punch theory isn't even true because if you see his demonstration the person is standing with his feet both together of course anyone would fall back basically. If you try to do taht technique to someone who's in a boxing stance they wouldn't move and its not even an actual punch its a push. 

I'm not convinced that Bruce Lee would "beat anyone in the world".


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## Saenchai

UFC fighter would beat the crap out of bruce...no offense to bruce, i'm a fan of his too but if he was alive today at the age he died and nothing changed as far as his style is concerned, bruce lee would just be far behind the UFC fighters league!


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## jcal

Oh no! This threads back up and running. Well after exploring Bruces past thoroughly I admit that ive been wrong about Bruce. In my new opinion Bruce could and would Sweep Brock Lesner (if Brock had him in the same position that Mir was in) and GnP him out. Against Fedor he would take him down with double underhooks and mount him then submit him possibly with an armbar or an arm choke. And without a doubt he would 1" punch Anderson Silva across the ring so hard that when Anderson hits the cage it breaks. There is no MMA fighter that could ever take on Bruce in the cage. Bruce was a 5' 125lbs beast!


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## Squirrelfighter

Wow, this thread is still up and kicking? I wonder how deep this one was down when it got bumped. 

I admit when I first debated with Ironman on the topic I was a bit ignorant to Lee's technical abilities and the Tao. However after reading as much as possible on the subject of JKD the philosophy as well as a bit into the institutionalized MA, I still find it lacking. There is no question Bruce was something remarkably special in the Martial Arts world of his time, I doubt there will ever be another like him, but to state that he is not only technically superior to every MMA fighter and that they use street tactics is laugheable. *I'm talking to you Skywalker.* 

You're calling men like Lyoto Machida, George St Pierre, and Anderson Silva street fighters? Bruce Lee is a closer approximation to a street fighter than anyone mentioned previously(who IMO would've taken Bruce Lee to school had they existed with their skills in his time). Anyone who looks even cursory into Lee's history would know he was a street fighter through and through while he trainined in Wing Chun. Even involving himself(reputedly, though with little historic backing)in a street gang war. 

The fact is that while Bruce Lee had a significant effect on many Martial Artists in his time, he has held onto his notoriety and divine status through generations, not the same way Gishin Funakoshi, or Wing Chun, or other founders of legitimate Martial Arts. While I consider JKD an innovative philosophy, I do not consider it a Martial Art so take my opinion with a grain of salt in that regard. 

*As for Mr. Skywalker*, a troll if I've ever met one. You successfully alienated every MMA fighter in the world with your remarks. That's skill even for a troll, I shall call you, megatroll. I'll give you a little slack seeing as you all likely an older gentleman, so you may in fact be suffering from senility. In that case you are not a megatroll, but I think its got a nice ring to it, so it stays!:thumb02:


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## TraMaI

IronMan said:


> I don't entirely disagree, but you have to understand that this is a controversial statement.
> 
> While Bruce probably wouldn't have supported the institutionalization of a "style" of JKD, there are a number of students, including the Bruce Lee Foundation, who use the term to refer to a fighting system.


If Bruce would not have supported JKD as a style then why is it controversial to say that it is NOT a style? The man never intended it to be a style at all, he only intended to teach his philosophies behind the martial arts and unite those philosophies under the banner of Jeet Kune Do. If he (the INVENTOR of JKD) said "Hey, this IS NOT a style of martial arts it is a philosophy." Then it is just that and it is NOT a style. People teaching JKD as a style therefore are not teaching JKD. Bruce fully intended JKD to be an ever evolving way of learning martial arts and making it the best fighting system that it could possibly be, he never intended on it being a stagnant style. Anyone who says that it is a style is strictly going against the way he would've taught JKD and, as I said, not really teaching JKD.





> Again, you have to make the distinction between the institutionalized style which is based in a lineage traced back to Lee (though not very far) and the philosophy outlined in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.


I'm making the distinction that there is no "style" of JKD, it doesn't exist. It's like Americanized Karate. You can call it Karate until you're blue in the face but that does NOT mean it's Karate. 

The only case in my mind where JKD could be called a style is when you're teaching it in constant change. In my mind a style is a fairly stagnant thing. When I think of a Style I think of Kung Fu or Karate where the tradition runs deep, the moves never, ever change aside form minute aspects and that there is a way to "Master" said style. There is NO way to Master JKD and it's a constantly evolving art. 

If someone is teaching JKD as Bruce intended (as a philosophy of constantly evolving martial arts), then it is not a style. If someone is teaching it as a stagnant (or NEAR stagnant) style then it is not Jeet Kune Do.



> While I agree that JKD can be viewed as a style, if we're going to say that "JKD is the philosophy of keeping what works and discarding what doesn't," then basically every truly revolutionary martial artist is a JKD practitioner, including guys like Kano, whether they've heard of Bruce, or even lived a century before him.


I'm assuming the first part is a typo as I don't agree on it being a style... maybe I'm misinterpreting it... Anyways, "Keep what works and discard what doesn't" is one of MANY philosophies of JKD, I'm sorry I worded that incorrectly. Like I said up top, JKD is a collection of Philosophies and values towards martial arts (and life) united under a name, something like the Bushido Code if you will.



> I don't mind reflecting on the significance and brilliance of Bruce's philosophy of budo, but that's not how we determine the impact that a master has on the world of martial arts. Rather, we look at the way they change subsequent generations stylistically, and (as I've already said) Bruce's impact in that respect is pretty minimal.


As of yet, yes. But when you look at how martial arts is evolving NOW then you can truly see the influence he brought by trying to unite different styles. MMA is all about using what works and not what doesn't. Dana White has multiple times called Lee the "God Father of MMA," and it's true. Bruce Lee was doing 30-40 years ago what top mixed martial artists are doing NOW. And seeing as how the trend of MMA and MMA's impact on the world of Martial Arts as a whole is already massive and only growing exponentially by the day, I'd hardly say his impact was "Minimal."



> Yeah, that makes more sense. I'd have to go back and watch TUF 6 to see for myself, but I'm happy to take your word for it.


I'm like 99% sure he said it during a pre-fight thing in one of the first few episodes. I remember it because it's one of the reasons I like him. That and his attitude and looks remind me a lot of my brother-in-law.


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## IronMan

TraMaI said:


> If Bruce would not have supported JKD as a style then why is it controversial to say that it is NOT a style?


So, I'm only quoting this portion of that first chunk, because it contains the question. I've also restructured the post for my convenience. I don't do that very often, but in this case, I think it will make it much easier to read.

I agree with your frustration as far as the understanding that Bruce opposed the institutionalization of JKD. I think that's obvious. I think anyone who's read the published notes from The Game of Death clearly understands that the structuring of a style was not something that Bruce thought was a good idea.

The reason it's a controversial statement is because there are a huge number of people who have starting teaching JKD.

I'd get into the details of this, but since I agree with you, it's not really an argument I can put my heart into. Just understand that there are people who consider themselves practitioners of JKD, so it's not as though everyone is going to agree with you when you say "JKD is not a martial art."



> There is NO way to Master JKD and it's a constantly evolving art.


I'm going to get into this when I talk about some of the theory at the end of the post, but there is no such thing as a "stagnant" martial art. That's a myth.

As far as masters go, there are a number of "masters" of Jeet Kune Do. Since I live in California, I've had the opportunity to meet a couple of them.

Dan Inosanto and Larry Hartsell both consider themselves masters. So does Ted Wong. You can do the research, but since both Insanto and Wong represent independent "branches" of JKD, it's clear that they consider it a system.

And I think they would resent the notion that it's stagnant. I know that Inosanto would. I'll get to why at the end.



> If someone is teaching it as a stagnant (or NEAR stagnant) style then it is not Jeet Kune Do.


Again, I agree with this. Other people don't.



> If someone is teaching JKD as Bruce intended (as a philosophy of constantly evolving martial arts), then it is not a style.


I think you're making a false distinction here.

All martial arts are, to some degree, in constant flux. I'm sure that there are bad instructors who don't teach them as such, but the styles on the whole change necessarily.

Bruce's concepts are more complicated than just "things evolve." I know you know that, because you say so in your post, but the element of flux is something that Lee seemed to acknowledge as a reality of martial arts. It's descriptive, not prescriptive. Lots of his other concepts, which I've seen in application, are prescriptive.

O.K. Now, let's do some theory.



> In my mind a style is a fairly stagnant thing. When I think of a Style I think of Kung Fu or Karate where the tradition runs deep, the moves never, ever change aside form minute aspects and that there is a way to "Master" said style.


I actually think this is off the mark.

All styles are in a state of change. It's most visible in those styles which have active competitions, because those competitions foster the change and make it visible to the outsider, however, it is a universal component of martial arts.

Looking at the visible sports styles like BJJ or Judo, it's easy to see the styles change over periods of ten or fifteen years. The BJJ that Rickson Gracie competed in is not the same as the BJJ that Roger is competing in today. Many of the techniques Rickson saw are still there, but there's much more to the game today, in all aspects.

Things change because people learn and add and subtract from the style, and they tweak techniques to make them more effective, or to make them their own. In this sense, the martial arts, generally, are never stagnant. I don't know that a system, like any other tradition, can last for even three generations without showing serious changes.

But, back to Bruce.



> As of yet, yes. But when you look at how martial arts is evolving NOW then you can truly see the influence he brought by trying to unite different styles... Bruce Lee was doing 30-40 years ago what top mixed martial artists are doing NOW.


There's a difference between saying Bruce Lee predicted MMA and saying he inspired it. Also, the former is true and the latter is just not.

The idea of trying to incorporate different styles is not something that Lee is responsible for in the world of MMA. Neither he nor his students were seriously involved in early MMA.

It's fine to say that Bruce Lee demonstrated the significance of mixing styles. That's absolutely true.

But the MMA guys didn't figure that out as a result of Lee. They figured that out because many of them already had a striking style and figured that they had to learn a grappling style to last with the BJJ guys. We see an early remnant of this with Kimo at UFC 4, but it develops pretty strongly from there.

Bruce was right when he said that combining styles was necessary for the advancement of the individual's training and martial arts as a whole. But was he responsible for the guys in MMA learning that? I've seen no evidence that he was, and plenty of evidence that suggests the guys in MMA reinvented the wheel on that one.



> MMA is all about using what works and not what doesn't. Dana White has multiple times called Lee the "God Father of MMA," and it's true... And seeing as how the trend of MMA and MMA's impact on the world of Martial Arts as a whole is already massive and only growing exponentially by the day, I'd hardly say his impact was "Minimal."
> 
> I'm like 99% sure he said it during a pre-fight thing in one of the first few episodes. I remember it because it's one of the reasons I like him. That and his attitude and looks remind me a lot of my brother-in-law.


If we're remembering the same quote, then he said it basically as he announced an MMA joint venture with the Bruce Lee Foundation (one of the organizations that recognizes Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do as a *style*) but that aside, it's also off the mark.

MMA impacts the world of mixed martial arts. Sure. And that influence is growing. But you have to demonstrate Bruce's relevance to MMA, which you haven't.

Bruce's philosophies are great, and there are martial artists who study them, but the world of striking systems is indifferent to his principles of striking (since most of them already knew about economy of motion, responsiveness and ranges of engagement) and the world of grappling has never really cared about Lee, because his grappling was never anything truly mindblowing, and there were guys around at the same time who were better.

I have a lot of respect for Lee, but his lineage was entirely unconnected to the history of early MMA and his influence is not seen in the fighting styles of the fighters who were competing. These guys came from other places in the world of martial arts, and the guys who were behind the scenes came from Brazil and not the Bay Area (much as I wish they'd have been from Northern California) where most of Lee's influence in the world of martial arts was centered.


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## Liddellianenko

Squirrelfighter said:


> Wow, this thread is still up and kicking? I wonder how deep this one was down when it got bumped.
> 
> I admit when I first debated with Ironman on the topic I was a bit ignorant to Lee's technical abilities and the Tao. However after reading as much as possible on the subject of JKD the philosophy as well as a bit into the institutionalized MA, I still find it lacking. There is no question Bruce was something remarkably special in the Martial Arts world of his time, I doubt there will ever be another like him, but to state that he is not only technically superior to every MMA fighter and that they use street tactics is laugheable. *I'm talking to you Skywalker.*
> 
> You're calling men like Lyoto Machida, George St Pierre, and Anderson Silva street fighters? Bruce Lee is a closer approximation to a street fighter than anyone mentioned previously(who IMO would've taken Bruce Lee to school had they existed with their skills in his time). Anyone who looks even cursory into Lee's history would know he was a street fighter through and through while he trainined in Wing Chun. Even involving himself(*reputedly*, though with little historic backing)in a street gang war.
> 
> The fact is that while Bruce Lee had a significant effect on many Martial Artists in his time, he has held onto his notoriety and divine status through generations, not the same way Gishin Funakoshi, or Wing Chun, or other founders of legitimate Martial Arts. While I consider JKD an innovative philosophy, I do not consider it a Martial Art so take my opinion with a grain of salt in that regard.
> 
> *As for Mr. Skywalker*, a troll if I've ever met one. You successfully alienated every MMA fighter in the world with your remarks. That's skill even for a troll, I shall call you, megatroll. I'll give you a little slack seeing as you all likely an older gentleman, so you may in fact be suffering from senility. In that case you are not a megatroll, but I think its got a nice ring to it, so it stays!:thumb02:


That one underlined word right there is the problem with everything about Lee. There is no proof about this man's actual fighting whatsoever except hearsay. Not a single tape of a real fight, or a public eyewitness account by dudes that weren't his buddies. Besides that, movies and parlor tricks. _Reputedly_, my high school buddy could smash through Anderson too ... at least that's what the guys say...

But yeah besides that you're spot on I'd say as far as his philosophy and contributions go.


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## TraMaI

> IronMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, I'm only quoting this portion of that first chunk, because it contains the question. I've also restructured the post for my convenience. I don't do that very often, but in this case, I think it will make it much easier to read.
> 
> I agree with your frustration as far as the understanding that Bruce opposed the institutionalization of JKD. I think that's obvious. I think anyone who's read the published notes from The Game of Death clearly understands that the structuring of a style was not something that Bruce thought was a good idea.
> 
> The reason it's a controversial statement is because there are a huge number of people who have starting teaching JKD.
> 
> I'd get into the details of this, but since I agree with you, it's not really an argument I can put my heart into. Just understand that there are people who consider themselves practitioners of JKD, so it's not as though everyone is going to agree with you when you say "JKD is not a martial art."
> 
> 
> 
> I completely understand what you're saying here and I'm happy you agree with me on this point because this is the main point I'm trying to focus on.
> 
> Like I said before and in my mind this still holds true:
> 
> You can call one thing something else as much as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is what it is and not what you're calling it. A cat is a cat no matter how much you call it a dog. I realize that not everyone is going to agree with this sentiment but that doesn't change the fact that it's wrong. The way Jeet Kune Do was founded and the basis on which it lies inherently makes it impossible to be a style of martial arts. From what I get from watching a whole shit load of videos of Bruce being interviewed and from reading the Tao is that a style of martial arts is more akin to hard clay or rock and JKD is fully intended to be water. A fighting style can change but only slightly and will never reinvent itsself. If it reinvents itself it gets a new name (Kyokoshin Karate, etc). Jeet Kune Do is like water in the way that it can be completely transformed and look damn near the opposite of another persons version of JKD and it will still be JKD. Bruce Lee's version of JKD is not Ben Saunder's version of JKD, but they are both still the same. Machida and GSP both use Karate, but they are two different types of Karate and are named accordingly. It's a difficult point to convey, but I think that helps illustrate it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to get into this when I talk about some of the theory at the end of the post, but there is no such thing as a "stagnant" martial art. That's a myth.
> 
> As far as masters go, there are a number of "masters" of Jeet Kune Do. Since I live in California, I've had the opportunity to meet a couple of them.
> 
> Dan Inosanto and Larry Hartsell both consider themselves masters. So does Ted Wong. You can do the research, but since both Insanto and Wong represent independent "branches" of JKD, it's clear that they consider it a system.
> 
> And I think they would resent the notion that it's stagnant. I know that Inosanto would. I'll get to why at the end.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I also said NEAR stagnant and by that I mean something like Karate, which has changed but only minutely as compared to something like MMA (which in my mind IS Jeet Kune Do as Bruce Lee fully intended it to be).
> 
> I know that calling JKD stagnant would be against what they teach, but in my mind they are neither masters nor are they teaching a style. This in no way is me saying that they are not high level martial artists or at the top of the pyramid skill wise, but I'm saying that, given the nature of what JKD IS, it can NEVER be mastered. JKD is in Constant flux and as soon as you "master" it, there is something else entirely to learn. Sure, maybe they have mastered their respected forms of JKD and said "This is my stopping point and this is where I've learned all I can about this martial art and it's application," but I also think that's a fallacy and impossible. Again, I'm not trying to discredit these men or their skills, but I'm saying that JKD is an art that is not able to be mastered barring learning every technique from every martial art in the world and then some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're making a false distinction here.
> 
> All martial arts are, *to some degree,* in constant flux. I'm sure that there are bad instructors who don't teach them as such, but the styles on the whole change necessarily.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not making a false distinction and the bolded part proves that you understood what I meant or you just completely missed it. There is a gigantic leap from the amount of flux something like Jiu-Jitsu sees and something like JKD sees. Strategies change over time more so than the actual art, most of the "new" techniques have always been part of the art. BJJ is a rare exception to this, in my mind, because it's a very, very young art. If you look at Karate or TKD or Kung Fu, the techniques have not much, if at all, over a long period of time. The application of them and the strategies behind them may have, but the art itself and it's techniques have not. If they have changed they tend to be modified versions of old techniques or a few techniques added. Jeet Kune Do is a completely different style from person to person. Like I said, compare someone like Ben Saunders to Bruce Lee. They're both drastically different, but they're both JKD. JKD does not have a list of techniques or anything like that like a style does. One person's JKD could be Tae Kwon Do mixed with Judo and a bit of Muay Thai while the another's is a Wrestling base with BJJ thrown in and some boxing. These two different ways of practicing JKD do not make either of them not JKD, but if you were to take any other style of martial art and add, remove or modify techniques it becomes a different style.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce's concepts are more complicated than just "things evolve." I know you know that, because you say so in your post, but the element of flux is something that Lee seemed to acknowledge as a reality of martial arts. It's descriptive, not prescriptive. Lots of his other concepts, which I've seen in application, are prescriptive.
> 
> O.K. Now, let's do some theory.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He not only acknowledged it, he embraced it. Flux is the base of JKD and that's the way Bruce taught it. I know there are more to his concepts than "things evolve," but no matter how you look at it, that is it's core.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually think this is off the mark.
> 
> All styles are in a state of change. It's most visible in those styles which have active competitions, because those competitions foster the change and make it visible to the outsider, however, it is a universal component of martial arts.
> 
> Looking at the visible sports styles like BJJ or Judo, it's easy to see the styles change over periods of ten or fifteen years. The BJJ that Rickson Gracie competed in is not the same as the BJJ that Roger is competing in today. Many of the techniques Rickson saw are still there, but there's much more to the game today, in all aspects.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, I think you misinterpret my meaning. I said fairly stagnant. I realize there is a constant state of flux in all styles of martial arts but what I'm saying is that there is a MASSIVE difference between the state of flux in JKD (which can change multiple times, completely and daily) and the state of flux in a more traditional martial art. BJJ and even Judo are very, very young sports. Judo is around 120 years old and BJJ is around 90, if not a bit less. Where as when you look at the martial arts I'm speaking about (more "Traditional Martial Arts") like Karate, TKD and Kung Fu, you get ages of ~400 years, ~800 years and Kung Fu ranks in the thousands. These arts still have competition but have even LESS flux than the younger sports, because they are more defined. Even then when you look at ALL of those martial arts, when something big is changed in them they become something else entirely with a new name (Karate to Kempo or any of it's other branches such as Ryukyu or Kyokushin). As I said before, not matter how much flux and no matter how much difference there is between two different practitioners of Jeet Kune Do, it is simply Jeet Kune Do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Things change because people learn and add and subtract from the style, and they tweak techniques to make them more effective, or to make them their own. In this sense, the martial arts, generally, are never stagnant. I don't know that a system, like any other tradition, can last for even three generations without showing serious changes.
> 
> But, back to Bruce.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree there are changes in other martial arts, but they're minute as compared to what JKD is capable of doing and what it does on a daily basis. So long as someone follows the philosophies of Bruce Lee and mixes at least two styles, they can be considered a practitioner of JKD. The same cannot be said for other martial arts (normally). I cannot mix Karate with BJJ and have it be Karate. I cannot mix Muay Thai with BJJ and have it still be Muay Thai, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's a difference between saying Bruce Lee predicted MMA and saying he inspired it. Also, the former is true and the latter is just not.
> 
> The idea of trying to incorporate different styles is not something that Lee is responsible for in the world of MMA. Neither he nor his students were seriously involved in early MMA.
> 
> It's fine to say that Bruce Lee demonstrated the significance of mixing styles. That's absolutely true.
> 
> But the MMA guys didn't figure that out as a result of Lee. They figured that out because many of them already had a striking style and figured that they had to learn a grappling style to last with the BJJ guys. We see an early remnant of this with Kimo at UFC 4, but it develops pretty strongly from there.
> 
> Bruce was right when he said that combining styles was necessary for the advancement of the individual's training and martial arts as a whole. But was he responsible for the guys in MMA learning that? I've seen no evidence that he was, and plenty of evidence that suggests the guys in MMA reinvented the wheel on that one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I see where you're coming from with this, but in retrospect, looking at what Lee did and when he was doing it, he was the precursor to MMA. The man was doing MMA before MMA was even a THING and he essentially brought the fact of mixing martial arts to the forefront of philosophy for fighting systems. I know what you're saying though, that Lee was not thought of much during the EARLY process of the evolution of MMA. I fully recognize that many fighters recognized that other fighters brought skills to the game that they simply did not have and they needed to compensate.
> 
> But when you take into account that MMA is sort of coming full circle in the last 5-7 years as opposed to the previous years (when there were still MANY one dimensional fighters) and the fact that quite a few now recognize what Lee was doing and garner not only inspiration but philosophy among other things from him, I don't think theres any question that he has something to do with it. I've heard a few accounts of MMA fighter saying things about Lee and how he was the precursor to what they're doing now. About how he was about becoming a complete fighter in all aspects rather than just a very good fighter in a single aspect.
> 
> 
> 
> If we're remembering the same quote, then he said it basically as he announced an MMA joint venture with the Bruce Lee Foundation (one of the organizations that recognizes Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do as a *style*) but that aside, it's also off the mark.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He's said it multiple times that I've heard in post fight conferences.
> 
> 
> 
> MMA impacts the world of mixed martial arts. Sure. And that influence is growing. But you have to demonstrate Bruce's relevance to MMA, which you haven't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Due to the time lapse, it's almost impossible to demonstrate concrete evidence of his relevance to it. But given the amount of fighters, trainers and the biggest MMA promoter acknowledging what he did is a pretty big step and I think that more than proves he had some relevance to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce's philosophies are great, and there are martial artists who study them, but the world of striking systems is indifferent to his principles of striking (since most of them already knew about economy of motion, responsiveness and ranges of engagement) and the world of grappling has never really cared about Lee, because his grappling was never anything truly mindblowing, and there were guys around at the same time who were better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having concrete ways of striking and grappling were never the foundation of Lee's philosophies though, they're nto what he truly contributed to the world of martial arts. He had basic ground rules for striking, but as you said they were the same basic principles that almost all striking arts conveyed. There were, of course, better grapplers as well who knew more about the art form, but at the time of his death, Lee had only been training in ALL of martial arts for 19 years, a mere 8 of that being devoted to Jeet Kune Do. To say that he had limited capabilities isn't something I don't agree with, but to say he had limited potential in any way is something I whole heartedly disagree with. I mean, I've been doing pure grappling for almost 4 years now, are there grapplers better than me? Sure as hell there are. But I still have a LOT of room to grow. Bruce still had a lot to learn when he died, so to say there were grapplers that were better at him at the time is nonsensical to me when he'd only been training in grappling for around 8 years, probably LESS and it takes a BJJ practitioner (FULL TIME) around 10 to get a black belt, traditionally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a lot of respect for Lee, but his lineage was entirely unconnected to the history of *early *MMA and his influence is not seen in the fighting styles of the fighters who were competing. These guys came from other places in the world of martial arts, and the guys who were behind the scenes came from Brazil and not the Bay Area (much as I wish they'd have been from Northern California) where most of Lee's influence in the world of martial arts was centered.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly. I agree with you it was absent from early MMA, but I can't say it's absent from modern MMA in the least. From the way MMA is evolving and the teachings behind it, Lee is almost as influential as the Gracies, it just took them a while to realize what a savant he was. I know that much of the evolution of early MMA was due to the fact that Royce was subbing dudes twice his size, but I believe at least part of the latter part of the evolution of MMA has Lee's influence behind it as well.
Click to expand...


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## IronMan

> I also said NEAR stagnant and by that I mean something like Karate, which has changed but only minutely as compared to something like MMA (which in my mind IS Jeet Kune Do as Bruce Lee fully intended it to be).


Sorry, bro, but this statement is just historically wrong.

Apart from the fact that Karate is less than 200 years old (it's a 19th century development) and we have already seen the emergence of dozens of styles, simply looking at the early history of karate demonstrates that this isn't the case.

Itosu Anko made substantial changes to the system taught in Okinawa, though usually we don't even start talking about "karate" until Anko in the end of the late 19th century.

Gichin Funakoshi made major alterations to both the presentation of karate in mainland Japan in the early 20th century, but his students were, in many ways, responsible for revolutionizing many of the techniques.

Hironari Otsuka introduces kumite to karate basically before the start of WWII, when all of the martial arts systems drop off of the grid after the Japanese surrender. That leads to some huge basic developments in the system.

Later in the late 1940s, after the end of WWII, when Japan starts to use the martial arts again, you see a major resurgence of karate, along with a series of major revolutions in the style, including the creation of Kyokushin.

Currently, there are a half-dozen styles of karate each with their own distinct style of kata (Shotokan, Wado and Goju are the three that jump immediately to mind) and many with their own forms of kumite.

The history of a style like "karate" is way more complex, and the technique does make serious changes over the generations.



> I know that calling JKD stagnant would be against what they teach, but in my mind they are neither masters nor are they teaching a style. This in no way is me saying that they are not high level martial artists or at the top of the pyramid skill wise, but I'm saying that, given the nature of what JKD IS, it can NEVER be mastered. JKD is in Constant flux and as soon as you "master" it, there is something else entirely to learn.


It seems like you're completely understanding what it means to "master" a martial art.

You don't just master it and then you're done. Nobody treats it that way.

My judo instructor is a 9th degree blackbelt in his early 70s and when I bring new techniques on to the mat, he gets excited and (despite a bad knee and back) tries to learn them.

Mastery of the martial arts is related to technical proficiency, but has nothing to do with the absolute knowledge of a martial arts system. I've never met a martial arts master who claimed to know every technique that his system had to offer. The people who master martial arts (a) know that systems don't work like that and (b) are aware of the vast amount of content in the martial arts.

Sensei Imamura likes to point out that there are more than 80 *recognized* judo throws, and he only knows about 50 of them (and a number of unrecognized techniques) and he only used, over the course of his career, about 15 of them. But the ones he learned he is extremely proficient in, and the ones he hasn't becoming extremely proficient in, he's still learning.

This is a guy who's been training in judo for 60 years, holds one of the most prestigious ranks in the world, a number of world titles and a reputation as one of the greatest masters of his generation. He is a master of judo, but it's not because he knows everything, it's because he has dedicated his life to learning as much as he can.



> There is a gigantic leap from the amount of flux something like Jiu-Jitsu sees and something like JKD sees.


JKD can't be "in flux." It's not a system.



> Strategies change over time more so than the actual art, most of the "new" techniques have always been part of the art. BJJ is a rare exception to this, in my mind, because it's a very, very young art. If you look at Karate or TKD or Kung Fu, the techniques have not much, if at all, over a long period of time.


As I said in the first section, I think this statement is just completely ignorant of the history behind the styles you're talking about.

I know very little about the history of TKD and the history of Kung Fu, but since I've already given the example of karate, I think that sufficiently undermines your point.



> The application of them and the strategies behind them may have, but the art itself and it's techniques have not. If they have changed they tend to be *modified versions of old techniques* or *a few techniques added*.


YES!

That's exactly what they are. And that's what's important. Each generation adds techniques and modifies old techniques, and that's how they change. It's how things change in BJJ. It's how karate changed.

Frankly, it's how boxing and kickboxing have changed, too.

Change what works to make it work better. Add new stuff that works, too. Oh, and stop using the old stuff. All three of those happen in every martial arts system.



> Jeet Kune Do is a completely different style from person to person.


If you're going to talk about JKD being as something other than a "style," you seriously need to change the language you use to talk about it.

It's not that someone's JKD *is* _x_, _y_ and _z_, it's that the philosophy of JKD (which is an approach to understanding the martial arts; a meta-martial arts) *leads them to draw from* _x_, _y_ and _z_.



> I said fairly stagnant. I realize there is a constant state of flux in all styles of martial arts but what I'm saying is that there is a MASSIVE difference between the state of flux in JKD (which can change multiple times, completely and daily) and the state of flux in a more traditional martial art.


Again, if you want to say "JKD is not a style," you need to stop talking about it in analogy to styles.

It is the martial arts (judo, BJJ, karate, etc.) which are in flux. If you want to make a distinction between JKD and the martial arts, then you have to acknowledge that JKD is not a thing which changes, because it's not a thing which has techniques added and taken away. There are no techniques in JKD *because it's not a system*.



> BJJ and even Judo are very, very young sports. Judo is around 120 years old and BJJ is around 90, if not a bit less. Where as when you look at the martial arts I'm speaking about (more "Traditional Martial Arts") like Karate, TKD and Kung Fu, you get ages of ~400 years, ~800 years and Kung Fu ranks in the thousands.


As demonstrated in the first section, the comments about karate are factually wrong.



> I agree there are changes in other martial arts, but they're minute as compared to what JKD is capable of doing and what it does on a daily basis. So long as someone follows the philosophies of Bruce Lee and mixes at least two styles, they can be considered a practitioner of JKD. The same cannot be said for other martial arts (normally). I cannot mix Karate with BJJ and have it be Karate. I cannot mix Muay Thai with BJJ and have it still be Muay Thai, etc.


Again, you're talking about JKD in analogy to styles. You can be a "subscriber to the values" of JKD.

Being a practitioner of anything implies that there is a practice involved. JKD (and Bruce talks about this in the Tao) is explicitly *not a practice*. It is a series of concepts. You understand the concepts, and you practice techniques, which are derived from *styles of martial arts* with those concepts in mind.



> I see where you're coming from with this, but in retrospect, looking at what Lee did and when he was doing it, he was the precursor to MMA. The man was doing MMA before MMA was even a THING and he essentially brought the fact of mixing martial arts to the forefront of philosophy for fighting systems. I know what you're saying though, that Lee was not thought of much during the EARLY process of the evolution of MMA. I fully recognize that many fighters recognized that other fighters brought skills to the game that they simply did not have and they needed to compensate.
> 
> But when you take into account that MMA is sort of coming full circle in the last 5-7 years as opposed to the previous years (when there were still MANY one dimensional fighters) and the fact that quite a few now recognize what Lee was doing and garner not only inspiration but philosophy among other things from him, I don't think theres any question that he has something to do with it. I've heard a few accounts of MMA fighter saying things about Lee and how he was the precursor to what they're doing now. About how he was about becoming a complete fighter in all aspects rather than just a very good fighter in a single aspect.


I've been around this sport long enough now to know how little these guys care about what Lee was doing.

There are a handful who were influenced by his writing (as opposed to just short of none who were influenced by his teaching) but largely the ideas which exist in JKD were adopted into MMA irrespective of Lee's writings.

Like I said, I have no problem saying that Lee predicted the importance of MMA, and why it was a good idea, and even necessary. I do have a problem with saying that he had an influence on it, because he's not a person that MMA competitors think about.



> He's said it multiple times that I've heard in post fight conferences.


I'm usually at those conferences with a notebook when they're in the western part of the United States, and I stream them online when I'm not. So maybe my memory is just bad.



> Due to the time lapse, it's almost impossible to demonstrate concrete evidence of his relevance to it. But given the amount of fighters, trainers and the biggest MMA promoter acknowledging what he did is a pretty big step and I think that more than proves he had some relevance to it.


Seriously? This is not an argument.

What he did, for many, may have been a big step *in martial arts*. It had nothing to do with MMA.

If you're going to say that "it's almost impossible to demonstrate concrete evidence of his relevance to [MMA]" that's fine. But that's my point.

MMA develops (at least) seven years after his death on a different continent with no consideration of the principles he talked about, and it's continuity through its early history showed no consideration of Lee's philosophy, but rather a separate understanding of the importance of mixed backgrounds adapted for skillset and body type. All of this happens absolutely without the influence of Lee.



> Having concrete ways of striking and grappling were never the foundation of Lee's philosophies though, they're nto what he truly contributed to the world of martial arts. He had basic ground rules for striking, but as you said they were the same basic principles that almost all striking arts conveyed. There were, of course, better grapplers as well who knew more about the art form, but at the time of his death, Lee had only been training in ALL of martial arts for 19 years, a mere 8 of that being devoted to Jeet Kune Do. To say that he had limited capabilities isn't something I don't agree with, but to say he had limited potential in any way is something I whole heartedly disagree with. I mean, I've been doing pure grappling for almost 4 years now, are there grapplers better than me? Sure as hell there are. But I still have a LOT of room to grow. Bruce still had a lot to learn when he died, so to say there were grapplers that were better at him at the time is nonsensical to me when he'd only been training in grappling for around 8 years, probably LESS and it takes a BJJ practitioner (FULL TIME) around 10 to get a black belt, traditionally.


I wasn't saying that he couldn't have been a great grappler. I said he *wasn't* a great grappler. Which we both agree is true.

I also said the world of grappling is indifferent to Lee, because he wasn't a great, or revolutionary, grappler. That's also true.



> Exactly. I agree with you it was absent from early MMA, but I can't say it's absent from modern MMA in the least. From the way MMA is evolving and the teachings behind it, Lee is almost as influential as the Gracies, it just took them a while to realize what a savant he was. I know that much of the evolution of early MMA was due to the fact that Royce was subbing dudes twice his size, but I believe at least part of the latter part of the evolution of MMA has Lee's influence behind it as well.


Again, seriously?

If you're going to say that "it just took them a while to realize what a savant [Lee] was," then you have to be able to demonstrate that they care about Bruce Lee.

As I said before, there are a number of MMA fighters, some of whom are really, really good (Anderson Silva and Diego Sanchez are the most visible) who do read Lee's writing on martial arts and do take it into consideration. Most MMA fighters, and I say this as a guy who works with them and studies them full time, don't have a copy of the Tao of JKD on their bedside table.

I'm sure they all know who Lee is, but only insofar as other Americans know who Lee is.

The best way to trace the lineage of martial arts systems is always by way of direct descent. This is clearly a test Lee fails.

But if you want to assert that Lee's philosophy influences modern MMA fighters, I think that you're overestimating the literacy of most MMA fighters. Mostly, though, I think you're committing a serious post hoc.

The presence of the ideas presented by Lee in terms of mixing martial arts is not in dispute. But that doesn't mean he's the one who brought them to the world of MMA. In point of fact, there's a ton of evidence to suggest that early mixed martial artists reinvented the wheel on that one, they brought in principles Lee had already created without any knowledge that they already existed.


----------



## Red Raider

*How would Bruce Lee do in MMA*

Bit of a "immaginitive" question, and try to give an honest answer.

Don't say Bruce Lee because your a fan boy, or because you were brought up as a kid with your father telling you that Bruce Lee was the greatest Fighter to ever lived etc etc..

And also don't say Bruce Lee would stand no chance for the simple fact you love MMA.

Be honest.

If Bruce lee was alive today, and was 23ish ( Random age I picked )

He was 23, fit, healthy and raring to go.

And Dana White, or whoever, Signed him to compete in a MMA Fight.... How would he do?

It obviously depends on a lot of things, but lets say against a St Pierre for eg.....

In the Red Trunks, from quebec, Cananda, George RUSH St Pierre.

In the Black trunks, from San Francisco, California, Bruce Lee.

What do you see happening during the fight?

Personal opinion, I would say St Pierre would win. However, give Bruce 6-12 months of all the training he needed, he'd be close an amazing fighter especially as he's a perfectionist.


----------



## Squirrelfighter

Liddellianenko said:


> That one underlined word right there is the problem with everything about Lee. There is no proof about this man's actual fighting whatsoever except hearsay. Not a single tape of a real fight, or a public eyewitness account by dudes that weren't his buddies. Besides that, movies and parlor tricks. _Reputedly_, my high school buddy could smash through Anderson too ... at least that's what the guys say...
> 
> But yeah besides that you're spot on I'd say as far as his philosophy and contributions go.



There is some testimony from those outside his circle on the count of the street gang war, even to the point where there was a supposed hit out on Lee, that was again supposedly one of the major reasons he moved to the United States, though even that is heavily disputed. 

When it comes to his actual Martial Arts ability, I would tend to believe much of it, though not all. Concerning his body conditioning I accept everything as fact, when you watch that minute human being double in width when he flexes, there's something definitely worth recognizing. Concerning his supposed ability with the one inch punch, I tend to believe that if your going to push someone into a chair, you use the palm of your hand. However intellectually he was literally decades ahead of his time. 

All in all, I think a portion of it was smoke and mirrors, but to imply that someone like Bruce Lee being an amazing Martial Artist is a conspiracy is insane. I said it earlier, he was a unique gem, even if he couldn't punch you across the room with one inch of reach.


----------



## punchbag

shadow_dragon said:


> Hi all, I'm new to this forum and was wondering if you could all help me settle a long running debate I have been having with my friends.
> 
> Everyone knows that Bruce Lee is the greatest fighter ever and I tell my friends who all watch UFC that he could easily defeat any of them however they all tell me I'm wrong. The main reasons I feel he could beat any UFC (or MMA fighter) is:
> 
> One inch punch - I feel this is his strongest ally as it requires little room (1 inch) to deploy it so could be done even when being grabbled and the speed of it cannot be blocked. Anyone he hits with this is as good as finished
> Didn't need to fight people on the ground - from what ive seen most mma is ended on the ground with some unwieldy hold however Bruce PERFECTED the art of beating his opponents whilst they were standing up. In short he would not need to rely about getting them on the ground
> Mental toughness - the brain can be the warriors strongest or weakest weapon. Bruce was subjected to a rigorous training regime like no other on earth plus allegedly achieved enlightenment so his mental prowess would ensure his victory
> 
> There are a few more points but I feel that makes my case, any honest feedback or constructive criticism would be much appreciated. No haterz though.
> 
> Shadow Dragon


Maybe just a rumour but apparently Bruce actually fought in a few arranged fights one against Chuck Norris where Chuck beat him up, and one where he was seriously injured problem with his back I heard. 
Let alone fighting a bjj guy.


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## machidaisgod

what about the guy with the long white hair, he gave bruce agreat run for his money many times, lets recognize him !?


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## kantowrestler

*White Hair?*

Are you talking about David Karadine?


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## Squirrelfighter

kantowrestler said:


> Are you talking about David Karadine?


Haha, I kinda hope he is!


----------



## vandalian




----------



## BrutalKO

...Again, the Bruce Lee vs. MMA fighters question pops up. Everytime I respond I catch a boot in the eye! The truth is, we will never know. The only thing is cetain is that Bruce in his prime would be a fast learner and he would evolve rather quickly...


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## kantowrestler

*Lee VS MMA*

It would've been interesting to see Bruce Lee fight in MMA, maybe we could see a simulation or something like that!


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## tecnotut

If you claim someone is a great fighter, then the burden os on you to provide the proof. I have not seen any Bruce Lee's fights. So if it cannot be proven he's a great fighter in any style, then how can it be true that he'd be effective in MMA style?


----------



## _RIVAL_

Anybody got a backyard fight of Bruce Lee?


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## kantowrestler

*Background*

Bruce Lee was trained in Wing Chun and was the founder of Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do, which in and of itself was one of several precursers to MMA. As for actual competition he was the 1957 High School Boxing Champion (probably of Hong Kong), knocked out British boxer Gary Elms in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships, knocked out Choy Li Fut fighter Pu Chung in 1958, was involved in gang related street fight in 1959, broke a man's nose in 1960, knocked out Japanese karate black belt Uechi in 1962, was involved in a street fight with Wong Jack Man who was an expert in Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and Tai Chi Chuan in 1965; and performed martial arts demonstrations at the 1964 and 1967 Long Beach International Karate Championships. I couldn't find any actual competition but I did find this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-DMpmYI7Bk.


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## tecnotut

kantowrestler said:


> Bruce Lee was trained in Wing Chun and was the founder of Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do, which in and of itself was one of several precursers to MMA. As for actual competition he was the 1957 High School Boxing Champion (probably of Hong Kong), knocked out British boxer Gary Elms in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships, knocked out Choy Li Fut fighter Pu Chung in 1958, was involved in gang related street fight in 1959, broke a man's nose in 1960, knocked out Japanese karate black belt Uechi in 1962, was involved in a street fight with Wong Jack Man who was an expert in Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and Tai Chi Chuan in 1965; and performed martial arts demonstrations at the 1964 and 1967 Long Beach International Karate Championships. I couldn't find any actual competition but I did find this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-DMpmYI7Bk.


So, to be the greatest or one of the greatest hand-to-hand fighter of all time, all you neeed is unreliable VERBAL testimony saying that you (a) beat some unknown boxer named Elms (who, presumably, didn't kick, grapple, or submit b/c he was just a boxer) in an amatuer match, (b) beat Pu Chung (whoever that is) on a rooftop, (c) beat some unknown gang memeber, (d) backfist some dude who has harrassing a Chinese girl, (e) beat some guy named Uechi at a handball court, and (f) some "Kung-Fu cat" (Lee's words) named Wong Jack Man. 

Do (a) through (f), and you're guarnateed the coveted spot as the greatest or one of the greatest fighter of all time. It doesn't matter whether these guys were actually ranked fighters, or whether there's video evidence depicting what really happened , or whether the witnesses were Lee's acquaintances, or whether Bruce Lee ever won a professional championship (high school tournaments isn't enough, sorry) -- all that matters is you beat some no-name dudes (and literally, just some random thugs off the street), and you'll be dubbed the greatest fighter in history. 

Again, the only fights I've actually SEEN from Bruce were his scripted movies. Oh wait, I forgot to mention that Bruce Lee got into a fight with one of the movie/film extras. Wow. Amazing.

By the way, you won't find any actual fights of Lee on video. That black-and-white sparring session we're seeing youtube was very boring and nothing exceptional. I've seen Anderson Silva do much more wonderious things with his striking.

Here's the only video I know of Lee sparring (note, still not a fight): Once again, boring and unexceptional: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVVGZEFQusM&feature=related


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## kantowrestler

*Simulation*

That's why I said earlier that we need to create a digital Bruce Lee by entering all the data that we have on him via his Long Beach demonstrations and pit him against another good fighter like a modern MMA fighter and see what would happen! That is the only way today to determine a true martial arts legend!


----------



## The Don

This sounds like it should be a possible episode of Deadliset warrior. 

Now I will admit i am a huge Bruce Lee fan... 

But there are a couple of ways of looking at this. 
If you take bruce as he was when he died and assumed he would not get any better. Then he would most likely be a better then average MMA fighter.. He would would win many.. but certianly lose as well.. 
The oterh way to look at is Bruce lee as a dynamic fighter as his creation of JKD was. He was starting to train in ground fighting. he had no where near mastered it.. but it was pointed out to him that it was a weakness in his game. To reference a movie.. in the fight scene with Kareem he was using some ground technique.

Looking at Bruce in this sense I think MMA would have been a huge attraction to Bruce and I think he would have excelled in almost all areas of MMA. But even as a huge fan I would not say he would be unbeatable. In his weight classes I suspect he might have a record similiar to someone like Fedor. . 

If he went to fight bigger oppoents I think he would have more losses. 

Now to say Bruce never fought anyone is ignorant. For his Era he fought some fairly impressive people. Thoguh you do have to rember martial arts in general did not have the draw back in the 60's and 70's it does today. so there is not as much video evidence. .. what evidence there is, is undeniably impressive. 

On the same hand to say Bruce lee would beat everybody is just as ignorant as in some of bruces own books he talks about times he was beat up. and how that was part of his motivation to push him self beyond his normal limits to prevent such a thing. 

Above all I think we need to respect Bruce's legacy for what he did do. With out him martial arts in general would not have gained as much popularity as it has whcih is part of what helped inspire MMA and inspired many fighters of today to begin training in the first place


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## kantowrestler

*Video Evidence*

Yeah I was going to say that because they didn't have small digital cameras or iphones like they do today they weren't going to get all the fights he claimed he got on video, that's just a plain fact!


----------



## rabakill

he would pwn everyone in k-1 guaranteed. But in mma, he'd lose 7/10 fights as he'd instantly get taken down.


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## kantowrestler

*Takedowns*

As that one guy stated earlier he was working on his ground game when he died, so he would've been able to defend takedowns somewhat!


----------



## Ape City

I can't believe this thread won't die.

Scratch that. I'm just gonna say it. This thread will never die.


----------



## americanfighter

rabakill said:


> he would pwn everyone in k-1 guaranteed. But in mma, he'd lose 7/10 fights as he'd instantly get taken down.


you would think this from watching his movies but what people dont realize is he was the original founder of mma. in real life he used the kicks of TKD the throws of Judo the footwork of boxing punches of kung fu holds of BJJ and the elbows and knees of MT. He was original Mixed martial artist. Thats what JKD was mixed martial arts. He once said "i don't believe in styles." although you don't really see him use it in movies because it wasn't flashy he knew bjj wresting and judo as well as stand up.


----------



## IronMan

americanfighter said:


> you would think this from watching his movies but what people dont realize is he was the original founder of mma. in real life he used the kicks of TKD the throws of Judo the footwork of boxing punches of kung fu holds of BJJ and the elbows and knees of MT. He was original Mixed martial artist. Thats what JKD was mixed martial arts. He once said "i don't believe in styles." although you don't really see him use it in movies because it wasn't flashy he knew bjj wresting and judo as well as stand up.


Do I really have to do this again?


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## americanfighter

iron man 

i never said people follow his style exactly I said that he was a mixed martial artist and he was the first to come up with the idea of mixed martial arts. 
people go on different routs and learn different arts but by doing so they still follow his idea of martial arts. "The best style is no style at all."

My main point is that many people believe he was nothing but a standup flashy fighter but thats not true. He would have evolved with the sport and developed his style accordingly.


----------



## IronMan

americanfighter said:


> iron man
> 
> i never said people follow his style exactly I said that he was a mixed martial artist and he was the first to come up with the idea of mixed martial arts.
> people go on different routs and learn different arts but by doing so they still follow his idea of martial arts. "The best style is no style at all."
> 
> My main point is that many people believe he was nothing but a standup flashy fighter but thats not true. He would have evolved with the sport and developed his style accordingly.


I've dealt with (basically) this comment before, too. In the posts I linked to.

There's no reason to believe that the world of MMA has any influence from Bruce Lee whatsoever.

There's plenty of evidence that Lee's knowledge of grappling was limited and just as much evidence that even contemporary grapplers would have absolutely schooled him on the mat.

It's fine to say, "well, Bruce Lee isn't just a standup fighter." It's also a strawman, because that point is well dead at this point.

To say "he would have evolved and developed his style is fine, and probably true. It also doesn't address the question.


----------



## kantowrestler

*Iron Man*

Yeah he is a real life version!


----------



## Brainshank

IronMan said:


> I've dealt with (basically) this comment before, too. In the posts I linked to.
> 
> There's no reason to believe that the world of MMA has any influence from Bruce Lee whatsoever.
> 
> There's plenty of evidence that Lee's knowledge of grappling was limited and just as much evidence that even contemporary grapplers would have absolutely schooled him on the mat.
> 
> It's fine to say, "well, Bruce Lee isn't just a standup fighter." It's also a strawman, because that point is well dead at this point.
> 
> To say "he would have evolved and developed his style is fine, and probably true. It also doesn't address the question.


Ironman, I've been reading your last few posts,and really appreciate the way you structure and back up your arguments. However, I'm gonna weigh in on the discussion concerning whether or not Bruce Lee deserves any credit for the evolution of mma. First, here's a quote from you:



IronMan The presence of the ideas presented by Lee in terms of mixing martial arts is not in dispute. But that doesn't mean he's the one who brought them to the world of MMA. In point of fact said:


> Lee had already created[/B] without any knowledge that they already existed.[/FONT]


Many of these fighters may not have realized, in the beginning, that they were picking up where Lee left off, but many modern day fighters *do* acknowledge this and give him the nod. If you haven't already, look up the latest documentary on Bruce (at least the latest i've seen) titled "How Bruce Lee Changed the World". There's a whole section in there on his influence on MMA, including interviews with several MMA fighters, from journeymen to champions, saying that Bruce was and is a huge inspiration to them in regards to everthing from how they first gained interest in the arts to how they train today. 

As a matter fact, Bruce is often credited for bringing martial arts into the public view of American society with the work he did in Hollywood (Green Hornet, Enter the Dragon, etc) and garnering interest for it. Were it not for this increased public interest, would there have been any reception at all to the original concept of pitting different styles against each other, as the Gracie's did in the original UFCs? As the competition evolved, fighters evolved with it, and only now are beginning to recognize what Lee was originally doing and crediting him for how his ideas play a part in their own training.

With these things in mind, I think to argue that Bruce Lee doesn't deserve credit or play a role in the evolution of MMA is just being stubborn, and a little silly.


----------



## kantowrestler

*Evolution*

Let's not forget that Bruce not only introduced Asian Martial Arts to the American public, he also laid down the foundation of the modern MMA fighter. When Bruce came to America he started dieting, cross training, and his fighting system, Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do which is more commonly known as Jeet Kune Do, is based on a fighter evolving his fighting style to include what works, something that modern MMA fighters do all the time!


----------



## gogomata

Dude... Bruce Lee is totally the father of MMA.

He PUT the mixed in MMA... that was what JKD was all about. Being effective and abandoning forms for the sake of forms/style/tradition.

The Gracie's put it together but Bruce inspired what it has evolved into today (even the gloves they use were originally conceived by Lee.

I'm amazed anyone is trying to dispute that fact 


Now... could Bruce whoop anyone's ass? No way. I agree he'd probably get owned due to his lack of jitz and takedown defense... but those are things he could've learned and he probably would've been a beast.


----------



## IronMan

Brainshank said:


> Many of these fighters may not have realized, in the beginning, that they were picking up where Lee left off, but many modern day fighters *do* acknowledge this and give him the nod. If you haven't already, look up the latest documentary on Bruce (at least the latest i've seen) titled "How Bruce Lee Changed the World". There's a whole section in there on his influence on MMA, including interviews with several MMA fighters, from journeymen to champions, saying that Bruce was and is a huge inspiration to them in regards to everthing from how they first gained interest in the arts to how they train today.
> 
> As a matter fact, Bruce is often credited for bringing martial arts into the public view of American society with the work he did in Hollywood (Green Hornet, Enter the Dragon, etc) and garnering interest for it. Were it not for this increased public interest, would there have been any reception at all to the original concept of pitting different styles against each other, as the Gracie's did in the original UFCs? As the competition evolved, fighters evolved with it, and only now are beginning to recognize what Lee was originally doing and crediting him for how his ideas play a part in their own training.


I agree about the impact Bruce had on bringing martial arts into popular culture, and the role that he played creating interest is something that makes him worth discussing in the framework of MMA.

But he's not a predecessor to MMA. Just for the record, neither are the ancient Greeks.

There are two lineages that contemporary MMA emerges out of. The first (which leads to the UFC) is the full-contact vale tudo lineage established by the Gracies.

The second is the Pancrase lineage which comes out of Japanese professional wrestling and submission fighting.

It's an interesting argument to say "well, without Lee, no one would have accepted the UFC, because they wouldn't have been interested in the martial arts. That, I think, is totally off the mark.

The fact is, the early UFC events were not seen as contiguous with Lee's tradition of martial arts films, because it was regarded as a subculture emerging from street violence.

Now, there are a number of MMA fighters who love kung fu movies, and many who were influenced to start training by films like Enter the Dragon. How many of them are stylistically influenced by Lee? Basically none of them.

So, there are two lineage arguments that you can make.

You can say that Lee was responsible for laying the groundwork which allowed MMA to come into the social consciousness and become socially accepted. This is the tact that I think you're trying to take.

Or you can say that Lee is a stylistic predecessor to modern MMA. That argument is ridiculous and far more common. But, I'm pretty sure that's not the one you want to make anyway.



> With these things in mind, I think to argue that Bruce Lee doesn't deserve credit or play a role in the evolution of MMA is just being stubborn, and a little silly.


Well, there are a few simple question:

Does Lee play a role in the stylistic development of MMA? No. There are essentially no major fighters who are seriously influenced by Lee's style and most contemporary MMA camps come out of clearly denoted lineages which are in no way connected to Lee.

Does Lee play a role in inspiring the founding of contemporary MMA? No. Clearly, that's something that originates in Brazil (during Lee's lifetime), peeking from '80-'85 and being exported to the United States in the early '90s.

Does Lee play a role in influencing the training philosophy of fighters? You can try and make that argument, and people have in this thread, but the realistic answer is "No."

If there's another kind of role playing that Lee did, I'm happy to hear you out. You're one of the better posters I've seen in this thread, so I'm happy to hear what you have to say, but these are the three that I've been dealing with, and all are pretty ridiculous.



gogomata said:


> Dude... Bruce Lee is totally the father of MMA.
> 
> He PUT the mixed in MMA... that was what JKD was all about. Being effective and abandoning forms for the sake of forms/style/tradition.
> 
> The Gracie's put it together but Bruce inspired what it has evolved into today (even the gloves they use were originally conceived by Lee.
> 
> I'm amazed anyone is trying to dispute that fact


Ugh, this is like the fifth or sixth time in this thread I've had to deal with this kind of stuff.

Bruce Lee has no connection whatsoever to the development of early MMA. And the primary evolution of MMA, which occurs between UFC 5 and (to give a rough estimate) the first Ultimate Fighter Finale, sees about the same level of influence from Lee, which is to say, basically none.

All of the ideas that you're attributing to Lee (abandoning forms, introducing light gloves for full contact sparring, mixing styles) occurs in MMA without even peripheral reference to Lee.

The gloves are introduced by the athletic commissions as a compromise measure, the abandoning of forms is a practical occurrence in martial arts, generally, which (realistically) had been around a helluva lot longer than Bruce Lee and the mixing of styles occurs in the shootfighting world of Japan with heavy influences from shotokan and kyokushin karate practitioners, judo and traditional sumo, as well as western wrestling was (again) a practical innovation which had nothing referential towards Lee at all.

Also, if you're going to use the word "fact," please supply references to actual events that make you think Lee is connected to the sport. A lot of people regard Lee's influence as a fact, but don't provide any historical reference whatsoever. If there is one, I'd like to see it.


----------



## Budhisten

^^
What he said...

BTW - why won't this thread die!?


----------



## gogomata

IronMan said:


> Also, if you're going to use the word "fact," please supply references to actual events that make you think Lee is connected to the sport. A lot of people regard Lee's influence as a fact, but don't provide any historical reference whatsoever. If there is one, I'd like to see it.[/FONT]


http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Jeet-Kune...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276121188&sr=8-1


Some truths are self evident. If you chose not to acknowledge Lee's role as a philosophical bricklayer of MMA's foundation, that's fine by me.

:confused03:


----------



## IronMan

gogomata said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Jeet-Kune...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276121188&sr=8-1
> 
> 
> Some truths are self evident. If you chose not to acknowledge Lee's role as a philosophical bricklayer of MMA's foundation, that's fine by me.
> 
> :confused03:


And how does the Tao of Jeet Kune Do influence MMA. I've talked about how it looks very similar, and been pretty generous with acknowledging that what Bruce referred to as "Jeet Kune Do" was similar to what MMA has become.

But the fact is, most of the guys involved in founding and, later, shaping and reshaping the UFC and sport of MMA writ large into what it is to day, hadn't read the Tao of JKD.

95% of MMA fighters today haven't read it. And neither have most promoters. Not to crap on MMA fighters intelligence, some of them are very smart, they're just not that into martial philosophy.

And, again, you haven't brought any history into this. Musashi (albeit not a hand-to-hand fighter) covered much of the same ground that Lee did 300 years earlier, but we don't attribute Musashi with revolutionizing conventional striking, because he didn't. Most of the strikers in following generations found their influences in other places.

The presence of the principles does not demonstrate contiguity. That's why I asked for a historical event that demonstrates Lee's relevance to MMA. Otherwise, you're dealing in post hocs.


----------



## kantowrestler

*Foundations*

Well we are all forgetting that there are several roots to MMA. Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do is just one of them. Other notable examples are Pankration from the ancient Greek Olympics, Catch Wrestling from the 1920s, Vale Tudo from the early Gracie family, and Antonio Inoki and his shoot matches, the last of which happened shortly after Shooto came into existence in 1989!


----------



## IronMan

kantowrestler said:


> Well we are all forgetting that there are several roots to MMA. Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do is just one of them. Other notable examples are Pankration from the ancient Greek Olympics, Catch Wrestling from the 1920s, Vale Tudo from the early Gracie family, and Antonio Inoki and his shoot matches, the last of which happened shortly after Shooto came into existence in 1989!


I've done this, also, already, but in order to demonstrate that something qualifies a "root" of anything, you have to demonstrate contiguity, and there is no contiguity with respect to Pankration or Jeet Kune Do.

There is contiguity with the Vale Tudo tradition in Brazil, which (realistically) starts in the late '70s and there is contiguity with Inoki's shootfighting (in the form of Pancrase; as I've already talked about).


----------



## kantowrestler

*Inoki*

He also created an MMA promotion called Universal Fighting Arts Organization that ran until 2002!


----------



## IronMan

kantowrestler said:


> He also created an MMA promotion called Universal Fighting Arts Organization that ran until 2002!


New Japan Pro Wresting, in my opinion, is a much bigger deal, as it had an enormous impact on the early careers of some of the pioneers.

All Japan Pro Wrestling was probably bigger, given it's influence was over Funaki and Suzuki. But Inoki was definitely influential as a trainer.


----------



## A Random Person

shadow_dragon said:


> Hi all, I'm new to this forum and was wondering if you could all help me settle a long running debate I have been having with my friends.
> 
> Everyone knows that Bruce Lee is the greatest fighter ever and I tell my friends who all watch UFC that he could easily defeat any of them however they all tell me I'm wrong. The main reasons I feel he could beat any UFC (or MMA fighter) is:
> 
> One inch punch - I feel this is his strongest ally as it requires little room (1 inch) to deploy it so could be done even when being grabbled and the speed of it cannot be blocked. Anyone he hits with this is as good as finished
> Didn't need to fight people on the ground - from what ive seen most mma is ended on the ground with some unwieldy hold however Bruce PERFECTED the art of beating his opponents whilst they were standing up. In short he would not need to rely about getting them on the ground
> Mental toughness - the brain can be the warriors strongest or weakest weapon. Bruce was subjected to a rigorous training regime like no other on earth plus allegedly achieved enlightenment so his mental prowess would ensure his victory
> 
> There are a few more points but I feel that makes my case, any honest feedback or constructive criticism would be much appreciated. No haterz though.
> 
> Shadow Dragon


And Chuck Norris can roundouse kick anyone's head off ... You have been reading too much lore.


----------



## kantowrestler

*Chuck Norris*

His only contribution to MMA has been the World Combat League which isn't even MMA cause it doesn't allow grappling!


----------



## Misaka

First of all let me clarify that I am a JKD practitioner.

We can’t establish any direct relation between BL and MMA. We simply cannot define what is the level of importance that BL had for the creation of MMA. But there are things that we can say for sure.

BL is the most important martial artist of the past century. BL made martial arts a global phenomenon, threw is movies.

BL was much ahead of his time. The methods, concepts and techniques used in the 60’s and 70’s where revolutionary. He was one of the few that gave importance, to conditioning, sparring, nutrition; even the use of focus gloves and pads that he used back in the days was something that was not used by martial artists in their training. He was one of the first to create a bridge between combat sports and martial arts, by using many of the CS training methods in his MA training.

What was the level of influence in the way ppl nowadays train MA? We cannot say.


His style, Jun Fan JKD, is a very effective , unorthodox style, that has the flaw of not having much grappling, but grappling in the 70’s was not considered important. In the kickboxing range, is at least at the same level as MT, Savate, Sanda. I personally believe that in some aspect JFJKD is ahead of our time. 

Was BL a warrior and a fighter like for example some of the Gracies?I don’t think so. Was he a great martial artist?Yes. Is he the most important and influencial martial artist of the XX century?Yes.


----------



## A Random Person

kantowrestler said:


> His only contribution to MMA has been the World Combat League which isn't even MMA cause it doesn't allow grappling!


what about K-1, it is only a mix of all the striking arts... therefore that is MIXED.

I can say that the UFC is not mixed martial arts because it does not allow the bo staff or the katana, weapons ARE a part of martial arts just as grappling is.

Each organizations have their own rules which limit fighters for various reasons.


----------



## kantowrestler

*Weapons*

There is a reason why it is called unarmed combat! If you want to see armed combat watch the Deadliest Warrior!


----------



## Toxic

Misaka said:


> BL is the most important martial artist of the past century. BL made martial arts a global phenomenon, threw is movies.


Wrong, the most important martial artist of the last century is Kano Jigoro the grandfather of Judo. Judo's impact of fine tuning traditional Jujitsu into a much more combat ready art form has left a huge impact still seen today. Judo as an art form is his legacy and not only do you have the fact that Judo is much more commmonly used in MMA but BJJ's roots have a direct lineage to Judo. Without Kano there would be no Judo and no BJJ. There is no debate he is easily the most important martial artist of the last century and one of the most important of all time.


----------



## kantowrestler

*Judo*

Yeah that is the base for BJJ!


----------



## IronMan

Misaka said:


> First of all let me clarify that I am a JKD practitioner.
> 
> We can’t establish any direct relation between BL and MMA. We simply cannot define what is the level of importance that BL had for the creation of MMA. But there are things that we can say for sure.


Well, I agree with the first part. Lets see what you have to say.



> BL is the most important martial artist of the past century. BL made martial arts a global phenomenon, threw is movies.


This is just wrong.

Toxic has presented an argument for Jigoro Kano, who I totally agree with.

I think there's a reasonable argument that Lee doesn't even make the top five.

If we make this a discussion of competitors, then Lee is hardly even eligible. He was never seriously active in competition, and what we do know of his competitive still leaves him in the dust behind any number of competitive boxers, wrestlers, kickboxers and judoka.

If we make this a discussion of visionaries, which is more interesting anyway, than it's going to be hard to assert that Lee is more influential than Kano. Frankly, I think that you're bound to lose an argument comparing Lee to Helio Gracie, or Dan Gable, or even lower level judoka visionaries like Mifune. Frankly, though, I think that the clear frontrunner for greatest martial artist of the 20th century is Kano.



> BL was much ahead of his time. The methods, concepts and techniques used in the 60’s and 70’s where revolutionary. He was one of the few that gave importance, to conditioning, sparring, nutrition; even the use of focus gloves and pads that he used back in the days was something that was not used by martial artists in their training. He was one of the first to create a bridge between combat sports and martial arts, by using many of the CS training methods in his MA training.


You can say a lot of his stuff was revolutionary, and certainly that's true for elements of his philosophy and his approach to fusing styles, but many of the technical elements and training are blown out of proportion by his followers.

If you read the text of JDK, he's constantly referencing the work of other martial artists and other systems, and his discussions of technique are rooted heavily in the idea that he should adopt what works. In that sense, he's a visionary, but not a technical revolutionary in a way that Kano was, or even Helio or Mifune.



> What was the level of influence in the way ppl nowadays train MA? We cannot say.
> 
> His style, Jun Fan JKD, is a very effective , unorthodox style, that has the flaw of not having much grappling, but grappling in the 70’s was not considered important. In the kickboxing range, is at least at the same level as MT, Savate, Sanda. I personally believe that in some aspect JFJKD is ahead of our time.


I've been fortunate to train with some of the leaders of JFJKD, including Dan Inosanto and (the late) Larry Hartsell, and they're great martial artists.

They're not ahead of their time.

Looking at guys who are truly revolutionary, who most people haven't heard of but have games that are going to change the world. I can name names if you want, but that's not really relevant.



> Was BL a warrior and a fighter like for example some of the Gracies?I don’t think so. Was he a great martial artist?Yes. Is he the most important and influencial martial artist of the XX century?Yes.


He was a great martial artist, no doubt about that. But not the most influential of the twentieth century, which saw some huge revolutions in martial arts.


----------



## swpthleg

Toxic said:


> Wrong, the most important martial artist of the last century is Kano Jigoro the grandfather of Judo. Judo's impact of fine tuning traditional Jujitsu into a much more combat ready art form has left a huge impact still seen today. Judo as an art form is his legacy and not only do you have the fact that Judo is much more commmonly used in MMA but BJJ's roots have a direct lineage to Judo. Without Kano there would be no Judo and no BJJ. There is no debate he is easily the most important martial artist of the last century and one of the most important of all time.


I approve this message.

It isn't clear to me whether Bruce Lee developed or merely refined Jun Fan JKD.


----------



## kantowrestler

*Jun Fan Jeet Kun Do*

Bruce developed Jeet Kun Do, he was originally trained in Wing Chun but created his own style when he realized that Wing Chun was too narrow and that he couldn't improve that much if he continued on that path!


----------



## Misaka

I've been fortunate to train with some of the leaders of JFJKD, including Dan Inosanto and (the late) Larry Hartsell, and they're great martial artists.

They're not ahead of their time.


Dan Inosanto teaches the old BL style, the jun fan gung fu. And besides that he put aside some stuff to make JFGF more ortodox. Ted wong and the Wednesday Night group use the most recent JFJKD. That version I believe that is very interesting and advanced in what concerns to striking.

As for Kano. Yes he was very important, but is a different kind of importance. How many people went to MA because of Kano. And how many went because of BL?If BL and his movies never existed would MA be such a global phenomenon with millions of practitioneurs?Go ask any MMA fighter what was the reason that took them to learn MA, and many (problably the majority) will say BL and his movies. 

Whe can say that Kano was very important in what concerns to the technical evolution of MA in the XX century. BL was important to the globalization and growth of MA as a phenomenon.


----------



## IronMan

Misaka said:


> Dan Inosanto teaches the old BL style, the jun fan gung fu. And besides that he put aside some stuff to make JFGF more ortodox. Ted wong and the Wednesday Night group use the most recent JFJKD. That version I believe that is very interesting and advanced in what concerns to striking.


Even Wong is far from revolutionary. His footwork, his head movement, his approach to striking is not something original. That's not pejorative, but it's true.



> As for Kano. Yes he was very important, but is a different kind of importance. How many people went to MA because of Kano. And how many went because of BL?If BL and his movies never existed would MA be such a global phenomenon with millions of practitioneurs?Go ask any MMA fighter what was the reason that took them to learn MA, and many (problably the majority) will say BL and his movies.


Again, I'm not going to argue about the impact of Bruce Lee's movies on popularizing martial arts in America, but to ask "how many people went into MA because of Kano?" is setting yourself up for a seriously troubling answer.

Judo is one of the most popular sports in the world. It has enormous cultural support in a number of countries (the U.S. isn't one of them, sadly) on a number of continents. Apart from the former Soviet States, that includes France, China, Cuba and Mongolia.

Lee's impact on the American practice of martial arts is enormous, and bringing it into popular culture was great. But Lee's impact on the global community is not significant compared to Kano.

And that's before we start discussing the major judo offshoots, including combat ***** (the official sport of a global superpower) and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.



> Whe can say that Kano was very important in what concerns to the technical evolution of MA in the XX century. BL was important to the globalization and growth of MA as a phenomenon.


Bruce Lee was important to popularization. "Globalization" sounds incredibly misleading. After all, did Lee "bring" a martial arts system to a place where it wasn't before? No. When he came to the states, there were already instructors here that he had to compete with.

Lee did a lot for making the martial arts a part of popular culture. But the martial arts themselves are not changed in any enormous way by Lee. In that respect, there are a dozen masters in the 20th century who had a greater impact on the *martial arts* than Lee did.


----------



## Freelancer

Toxic said:


> Wrong, the most important martial artist of the last century is Kano Jigoro the grandfather of Judo. Judo's impact of fine tuning traditional Jujitsu into a much more combat ready art form has left a huge impact still seen today. Judo as an art form is his legacy and not only do you have the fact that Judo is much more commmonly used in MMA but BJJ's roots have a direct lineage to Judo. *Without Kano there would be no Judo and no BJJ.* There is no debate he is easily the most important martial artist of the last century and one of the most important of all time.


I was gonna add *****, but Iron Man beat me to it.:thumbsup:


----------



## IronMan

Freelancer said:


> I was gonna add *****, but Iron Man beat me to it.:thumbsup:


There a number of styles on which the presence of judo itself has had a major impact. The popularity of Greco-Roman wrestling in many of the former Soviet states arguably owes a lot to the popularity of judo as a grappling system during the post-WWII era, as well as the development of the no-gi combat ***** systems, which basically took judo to a place where it was, basically, Greco-Roman with joint locks.

Now, that's a bit of an oversimplification, as the history of Russian wrestling is something that has a number of influences, but I think judo is certainly one of them.

Moreover, there are a number of smaller-name styles which incorporate grappling that I think also benefited a great deal from competitive judo after Kano.

I think it's fair to say that anywhere there is grappling in the modern world has been touched by Kano and his immediate successors. There are styles of grappling which have adopted techniques that he pioneered, and there are styles which have had to critically reevaluate their function as a result of competition with sport judo fighters. And there are many more that have done both.

I can say that Sumo is a part of both of those groups, many karate systems are (at least) a part of the latter group, as are many aikijujitsu systems.


----------



## Freelancer

IronMan said:


> There a number of styles on which the presence of judo itself has had a major impact. The popularity of Greco-Roman wrestling in many of the former Soviet states arguably owes a lot to the popularity of judo as a grappling system during the post-WWII era, as well as the development of the no-gi combat ***** systems, which basically took judo to a place where it was, basically, Greco-Roman with joint locks.
> 
> Now, that's a bit of an oversimplification, as the history of Russian wrestling is something that has a number of influences, but I think judo is certainly one of them.
> 
> Moreover, there are a number of smaller-name styles which incorporate grappling that I think also benefited a great deal from competitive judo after Kano.
> 
> I think it's fair to say that anywhere there is grappling in the modern world has been touched by Kano and his immediate successors. There are styles of grappling which have adopted techniques that he pioneered, and there are styles which have had to critically reevaluate their function as a result of competition with sport judo fighters. And there are many more that have done both.
> 
> I can say that Sumo is a part of both of those groups, many karate systems are (at least) a part of the latter group, as are many aikijujitsu systems.


There are a lot of other influences in *****, but the reason I mentioned that it wouldn't exist without Kano is the direct lineage from one to another. As you probably know, one of the ***** pioneers Vasili Oshchepkov was Kano's student, and one should just look at sport ***** and see the overwhelming similarity to judo.


----------



## Brainshank

I really do hope this thread never dies. It's too much fun. 
All right IronMan, I am pretty sure I'll never convince you in the way you demand, with concrete evidence and such. I'm still gonna keep arguing though.



IronMan said:


> There are two lineages that contemporary MMA emerges out of. The first (which leads to the UFC) is the full-contact vale tudo lineage established by the Gracies.


Is seems to me, by your reasoning, that the Gracies don't deserve any more credit for contemporary MMA than Bruce Lee does. Their original intentions with their involvement in the early UFC had absolutely nothing to do with what the sport has become today. At the time, he was merely using it as a platform to showcase his Gracie BJJ, much in the same vein as how Bruce attended demonstrations and seminars to promote his system, but didn't get involved in competitions. Gracie came in and dominated other fighers and artists to display that his form was superior to others. It was basically a grand marketing scheme on his part, and was very effective as that. 

When the promotion became more sport oriented, specifically, when rules were added so it could be sanctioned as a sport, Gracie ceased his participation, saying he didn't want to be a part of it because the introduction of rules could hinder some arts by restricting some techniques and their application. Basically, he subscribed to a more pure combat form of competition (on a side note, I believe that if Bruce Lee were around during this era his feelings would have mirrored those of Gracie). So, while Gracie was instrumental in the development of the UFC itself, he was absent from it at the time it began to evolve into actual MMA, or the integration of different arts. Ironically, as it relates to this conversation, when the Gracie's again became involved in the sport, fighters were practicing the new form of MMA (which, as has been agreed by several people in this thread, basically IS Bruce's JKD) they didn't enjoy nearly the level of success against it as they did in the early years against segregated arts. 

Gracies are no more part of the "lineage" of MMA than BL's JKD is by your logic. Sure, most fighters incorporate some form of BJJ, although not necessarily Gracie BJJ. You can argue that many train in BJJ because they need some sort of ground game to be competitive, but if they don't train under Gracies or their disciples, does that negate the impact that the Gracies had on MMA? If it doesn't, then how is Lee's JKD, which is a of blending martial arts, which is by definition MMA, any less integral just because not all the fighters using it acknowledge that Lee did it first & brought it to our culture in a way almost identical to how the Gracie's brought their BJJ to our culture years later?



IronMan said:


> you can say that Lee is a stylistic predecessor to modern MMA. That argument is ridiculous and far more common. But, I'm pretty sure that's not the one you want to make anyway.


You're right, that's not the point I was originally trying to make. I do fully agree with it, though. Why is it ridiculous? Please explain that.



IronMan said:


> It's an interesting argument to say "well, without Lee, no one would have accepted the UFC, because they wouldn't have been interested in the martial arts. That, I think, is totally off the mark.


Again, please explain why that is off the mark. Lee was one of the first to bring martial arts to main stream awareness. One of the first that was willing to teach westerners, for which he was persecuted to some degree by his peers. Without him taking these steps, would we see the interest in, and by progression, the intermingling of martial arts in the current day? Maybe, but i believe it would have been many more years before we got to the point we're at today without his influence and labors.




IronMan said:


> Now, there are a number of MMA fighters who love kung fu movies, and many who were influenced to start training by films like Enter the Dragon. How many of them are stylistically influenced by Lee? Basically none of them.


I disagree. I think you are disregarding just how much these films, and their popularity, impact people by exposing them to the martial subculture. How many of our favorite fighters would be playing football, hockey, tennis, or just working in a factory if they had never been exposed to these ideas through the media? And as far as stylistically, that goes back to my request above to explain why Lee is not a stylistic predecessor to modern day MMA.




IronMan said:


> Does Lee play a role in the stylistic development of MMA? No. There are essentially no major fighters who are seriously influenced by Lee's style and most contemporary MMA camps come out of clearly denoted lineages which are in no way connected to Lee.


Again, check out that documentary I mentioned. I think you'll be surprised by the amount of fighters that cite Bruce as both the reason they started and also cite some of his techniques in their training.
I also disagree with the statement that most contemporary camps have a clearly denoted lineage. This is just not true. Most contemporary MMA camps are first or second generation gyms that travel and intermingle constantly to make sure their fighters, and their techniques and skillsets, are constantly evolving to keep pace with the evolution of the sport.



IronMan said:


> Does Lee play a role in inspiring the founding of contemporary MMA? No. Clearly, that's something that originates in Brazil (during Lee's lifetime), peeking from '80-'85 and being exported to the United States in the early '90s.


See my long winded tirade on the Gracie comparison above.



IronMan said:


> Does Lee play a role in influencing the training philosophy of fighters? You can try and make that argument, and people have in this thread, but the realistic answer is "No."


Again, the answer is "Yes" according interviews I've seen with several respected individuals involved in the sport. 

Okay, this was a long one. Congrats to anyone who read this. IronMan, you may proceed, sir.



IronMan said:


> I can say that Sumo is a part of both of those groups, many karate systems are (at least) a part of the latter group, as are many aikijujitsu systems.


I practice Tomiki Aikido, and it does have strong a strong judo influence


----------



## Misaka

An interesting topic somewhat related to this discussion is the importance that BL had in American Kickboxing. Joe Lewis says that BL had a major role. Don't know if that's true.


----------



## kantowrestler

*American Kickboxing*

Not sure if Bruce Lee was that influential on that fighting style!


----------



## Toxic

Brainshank said:


> I really do hope this thread never dies. It's too much fun.
> All right IronMan, I am pretty sure I'll never convince you in the way you demand, with concrete evidence and such. I'm still gonna keep arguing though.
> 
> 
> 
> Is seems to me, by your reasoning, that the Gracies don't deserve any more credit for contemporary MMA than Bruce Lee does. Their original intentions with their involvement in the early UFC had absolutely nothing to do with what the sport has become today. At the time, he was merely using it as a platform to showcase his Gracie BJJ, much in the same vein as how Bruce attended demonstrations and seminars to promote his system, but didn't get involved in competitions. Gracie came in and dominated other fighers and artists to display that his form was superior to others. It was basically a grand marketing scheme on his part, and was very effective as that.
> 
> When the promotion became more sport oriented, specifically, when rules were added so it could be sanctioned as a sport, Gracie ceased his participation, saying he didn't want to be a part of it because the introduction of rules could hinder some arts by restricting some techniques and their application. Basically, he subscribed to a more pure combat form of competition (on a side note, I believe that if Bruce Lee were around during this era his feelings would have mirrored those of Gracie). So, while Gracie was instrumental in the development of the UFC itself, he was absent from it at the time it began to evolve into actual MMA, or the integration of different arts. Ironically, as it relates to this conversation, when the Gracie's again became involved in the sport, fighters were practicing the new form of MMA (which, as has been agreed by several people in this thread, basically IS Bruce's JKD) they didn't enjoy nearly the level of success against it as they did in the early years against segregated arts.
> 
> Gracies are no more part of the "lineage" of MMA than BL's JKD is by your logic. Sure, most fighters incorporate some form of BJJ, although not necessarily Gracie BJJ. You can argue that many train in BJJ because they need some sort of ground game to be competitive, but if they don't train under Gracies or their disciples, does that negate the impact that the Gracies had on MMA? If it doesn't, then how is Lee's JKD, which is a of blending martial arts, which is by definition MMA, any less integral just because not all the fighters using it acknowledge that Lee did it first & brought it to our culture in a way almost identical to how the Gracie's brought their BJJ to our culture years later?
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, that's not the point I was originally trying to make. I do fully agree with it, though. Why is it ridiculous? Please explain that.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, please explain why that is off the mark. Lee was one of the first to bring martial arts to main stream awareness. One of the first that was willing to teach westerners, for which he was persecuted to some degree by his peers. Without him taking these steps, would we see the interest in, and by progression, the intermingling of martial arts in the current day? Maybe, but i believe it would have been many more years before we got to the point we're at today without his influence and labors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. I think you are disregarding just how much these films, and their popularity, impact people by exposing them to the martial subculture. How many of our favorite fighters would be playing football, hockey, tennis, or just working in a factory if they had never been exposed to these ideas through the media? And as far as stylistically, that goes back to my request above to explain why Lee is not a stylistic predecessor to modern day MMA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, check out that documentary I mentioned. I think you'll be surprised by the amount of fighters that cite Bruce as both the reason they started and also cite some of his techniques in their training.
> I also disagree with the statement that most contemporary camps have a clearly denoted lineage. This is just not true. Most contemporary MMA camps are first or second generation gyms that travel and intermingle constantly to make sure their fighters, and their techniques and skillsets, are constantly evolving to keep pace with the evolution of the sport.
> 
> 
> 
> See my long winded tirade on the Gracie comparison above.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the answer is "Yes" according interviews I've seen with several respected individuals involved in the sport.
> 
> Okay, this was a long one. Congrats to anyone who read this. IronMan, you may proceed, sir.
> 
> 
> 
> I practice Tomiki Aikido, and it does have strong a strong judo influence



Some of the Gracies have vastly exaggerated influences on the sport of mma. Rorion and Royce very much had there own interests in mind and used the UFC to promote "Gracie" JJ. Thing is MMA was already at that time more evolved in Pancrease then in the states. Any old Vale Tudo fight from Brazil would more strongly resemble modern day MMA than UFC 1 did. Some of the other Gracies like Helio (obvious, often over credited by some) Carlos and from the latter generation Rickson. The influence these guys had on generations of fighters in Brazil and the rise of BJJ which has had a huge impact on MMA. 

BL never even vaguely resembles what a modern day MMA fighter looks like. His style can not be seen today in the octagon. Even fighters who have studied JKD show no aspects of it in the cage. The strong influence of the grappling arts can be seen in practically any fighter. Every single person in the UFC today has studied BJJ to some degree. It doesn't matter if they say Bruce Lee was an influence. Hell Tito Ortiz has said Bruce Lee was one of his hero's but absolutely no influence of BL can be seen when he steps into the cage. The influence of the evolution of the grappling arts though clearly shines through.


----------



## kantowrestler

*Influence*

Once again though if Bruce Lee hadn't introduced Asian Martial Arts to the American public then the whole style versus style concept of the original UFC would've been of any interest!


----------



## IronMan

Freelancer said:


> There are a lot of other influences in *****, but the reason I mentioned that it wouldn't exist without Kano is the direct lineage from one to another. As you probably know, one of the ***** pioneers Vasili Oshchepkov was Kano's student, and one should just look at sport ***** and see the overwhelming similarity to judo.


I think it's fair to say that judo is the largest influence in Combat *****. Now, does that mean it's the only influence? Not at all. But my point was that without judo, Combat ***** would be totally different.



Brainshank said:


> I really do hope this thread never dies. It's too much fun.
> All right IronMan, I am pretty sure I'll never convince you in the way you demand, with concrete evidence and such. I'm still gonna keep arguing though.


If you don't have concrete evidence, I don't know what makes you think you can convince anybody.



> Is seems to me, by your reasoning, that the Gracies don't deserve any more credit for contemporary MMA than Bruce Lee does. Their original intentions with their involvement in the early UFC had absolutely nothing to do with what the sport has become today. At the time, he was merely using it as a platform to showcase his Gracie BJJ, much in the same vein as how Bruce attended demonstrations and seminars to promote his system, but didn't get involved in competitions. Gracie came in and dominated other fighers and artists to display that his form was superior to others. It was basically a grand marketing scheme on his part, and was very effective as that.
> 
> When the promotion became more sport oriented, specifically, when rules were added so it could be sanctioned as a sport, Gracie ceased his participation, saying he didn't want to be a part of it because the introduction of rules could hinder some arts by restricting some techniques and their application. Basically, he subscribed to a more pure combat form of competition (on a side note, I believe that if Bruce Lee were around during this era his feelings would have mirrored those of Gracie). So, while Gracie was instrumental in the development of the UFC itself, he was absent from it at the time it began to evolve into actual MMA, or the integration of different arts. Ironically, as it relates to this conversation, when the Gracie's again became involved in the sport, fighters were practicing the new form of MMA (which, as has been agreed by several people in this thread, basically IS Bruce's JKD) they didn't enjoy nearly the level of success against it as they did in the early years against segregated arts.
> 
> Gracies are no more part of the "lineage" of MMA than BL's JKD is by your logic.


Wow, you totally missed my point.

So here's the simple version:

Bruce Lee has no connection to the sport of MMA. He didn't have anything to do with its creation and he didn't have anything to do with influencing the styles of its competitors.

If we created a genealogy for MMA, Bruce Lee would not appear on it.

The Gracies would.

The Gracies, in point of fact, are connected to MMA on both counts.

The Gracies *founded* the largest western MMA organization and are the primary influence in an enormous portion of active MMA fighters.



> Sure, most fighters incorporate some form of BJJ, although not necessarily Gracie BJJ.


Genealogically, all BJJ is "Gracie" BJJ.

That's like saying, "Well, you know, most modern judo players don't train 'Kano' judo.'"



> You can argue that many train in BJJ because they need some sort of ground game to be competitive, but if they don't train under Gracies or their disciples, does that negate the impact that the Gracies had on MMA?


That *is* the influence the Gracie's had on MMA.

If you don't know BJJ, you're going to get killed in MMA. That's an enormous stylistic influence.



> If it doesn't, then how is Lee's JKD, which is a of blending martial arts, which is by definition MMA, any less integral just because not all the fighters using it acknowledge that Lee did it first & brought it to our culture in a way almost identical to how the Gracie's brought their BJJ to our culture years later?


You really are not following this at all.

It doesn't matter whether Lee did it first. Most fighters with knowledge of the history of martial arts acknowledge that Lee did it first.

But that doesn't mean he's responsible for introducing it to MMA.

There's a reasonable chance that the hip throw existed in ancient Greece. Does that mean that some Greek guy is responsible for the presence of the hip throw in judo? Absolutely not.

I mean, he might be. Just as Lee might be responsible for parts of MMA training. But until you explain the history of either of those being introduced to the styles, then you're not going anywhere.



> You're right, that's not the point I was originally trying to make. I do fully agree with it, though. Why is it ridiculous? Please explain that.


Because most of the stylistic tendencies developed in Lee's conception of Jeet Kune Do are absent from MMA. Things which were major players in Lee's martial philosophy (short power, light footwork with heavy emphasis on the lead leg and fencing style stances, wing chun style close range striking techniques, etc.) are absent in MMA.

These are huge, and fundamental portions of Lee's teaching that simply don't exist. Moreover, asserting that Lee's philosophy of "mixing styles" is something which he brought to MMA is even more ridiculous. Because (a) Lee wasn't the first guy to come up with the idea of mixing styles and (b) he isn't the guy who brought that idea to MMA.



> Again, please explain why that is off the mark. Lee was one of the first to bring martial arts to main stream awareness. One of the first that was willing to teach westerners, for which he was persecuted to some degree by his peers. Without him taking these steps, would we see the interest in, and by progression, the intermingling of martial arts in the current day? Maybe, but i believe it would have been many more years before we got to the point we're at today without his influence and labors.


We wouldn't see martial arts films in popular culture, probably. We wouldn't have Kung Fu Hustle (and that would be a shame) and we wouldn't have Jean Claude Van Damme.

I live a few blocks from where Lee's academy was when he was in Oakland. He was, by no means, one of the first asian instructors to teach westerners. He was one of the first Chinese instructors to teach Americans, but the fact is, karate (and many other martial arts) existed in the United States years before Lee.

I'm not sure what you think he did that was revolutionary, from this post, but if you think (a) that he's responsible for the idea that martial artists should mix styles or (b) that he's responsible for bringing martial arts to the states, you're seriously misguided. Competitive martial arts did have significance and a serious base of American competitors prior to Lee.



> I disagree. I think you are disregarding just how much these films, and their popularity, impact people by exposing them to the martial subculture. How many of our favorite fighters would be playing football, hockey, tennis, or just working in a factory if they had never been exposed to these ideas through the media? And as far as stylistically, that goes back to my request above to explain why Lee is not a stylistic predecessor to modern day MMA.


I don't want to diminish that at all. I think that the importance of introducing these films to American students of martial arts is hugely influential, and incredibly valuable. However, I think its more important to acknowledge that even the guys that were brought to martial arts by watching Enter the Dragon ended up training in something totally different than Jeet Kune Do, and the ones that got to MMA aren't using anything close to the techniques we saw in those movies.

The influence on popular culture is huge. The influence on the style of martial arts and sportfighting in general is pretty minimal.



> Again, check out that documentary I mentioned. I think you'll be surprised by the amount of fighters that cite Bruce as both the reason they started and also cite some of his techniques in their training.


Will do. Sounds like a good documentary.



> I also disagree with the statement that most contemporary camps have a clearly denoted lineage. This is just not true. Most contemporary MMA camps are first or second generation gyms that travel and intermingle constantly to make sure their fighters, and their techniques and skillsets, are constantly evolving to keep pace with the evolution of the sport.


Seriously, you're going to drop a bomb like that without specifics?

There are plenty of gyms that have agreements to lend out training partners. The best example is the relationship between ATT and Alliance in Florida.

But the issue is the lineage of instructors, and we know who the instructors at each of those schools is (Liborio/Gurgel; respectively) and those who know them know who their instructors were (Carlson Gracie/Romero Jacare; respectively).

These are things that we know. We know who the instructors are, and so do the guys in the gym, and they take pride in their backgrounds and where they come from, so it's usually pretty easy to see the lineage, as well as where the techniques come from when they have long term coaches (like a Marcelo Garcia or a Tony De Souza, in the case of the previous example).



> Again, the answer is "Yes" according interviews I've seen with several respected individuals involved in the sport.


In what way?

Where is there a successful MMA camp that traces the lineage of instructors back to Lee?

Where is there a world champion in MMA who's primary style is decidedly influenced by Jeet Kune Do?

Seriously. These are the kinds of concrete evidence that you said you don't have, and I want to see if before I start hearing claims.



Misaka said:


> An interesting topic somewhat related to this discussion is the importance that BL had in American Kickboxing. Joe Lewis says that BL had a major role. Don't know if that's true.


I've heard Lewis quoted as saying some to that effect many times before. And I'm inclined to believe that Lee had an incredible influence on Joe Lewis, later in his career.

That said, Lewis was a multiple time world kickboxing champion before he met with Lee. Like Chuck Norris, he was well known, and he was already established as (realistically) one of the greatest karate practitioner of his generation.

American kickboxing was, in my opinion, more heavily influenced by its competitors being karate practitioners than anything else. Again, it's hard to see Lee as a serious influence when the things that were integral to his approach to striking are almost entirely absent from the system. But that's just my opinion and, as I've said before, my focus is the history of grappling and MMA, less on striking.



Toxic said:


> Some of the Gracies have vastly exaggerated influences on the sport of mma. Rorion and Royce very much had there own interests in mind and used the UFC to promote "Gracie" JJ. Thing is MMA was already at that time more evolved in Pancrease then in the states. Any old Vale Tudo fight from Brazil would more strongly resemble modern day MMA than UFC 1 did. Some of the other Gracies like Helio (obvious, often over credited by some) Carlos and from the latter generation Rickson. The influence these guys had on generations of fighters in Brazil and the rise of BJJ which has had a huge impact on MMA.
> 
> BL never even vaguely resembles what a modern day MMA fighter looks like. His style can not be seen today in the octagon. Even fighters who have studied JKD show no aspects of it in the cage. The strong influence of the grappling arts can be seen in practically any fighter. Every single person in the UFC today has studied BJJ to some degree. It doesn't matter if they say Bruce Lee was an influence. Hell Tito Ortiz has said Bruce Lee was one of his hero's but absolutely no influence of BL can be seen when he steps into the cage. The influence of the evolution of the grappling arts though clearly shines through.


Thanks for making a point that I was trying to get across. Repped.


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## kantowrestler

*Chuck Norris*

Once again Chuck's World Combat League is his only contribution to martial arts and its not mixed martial arts either!


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## Toxic

IronMan said:


> Genealogically, all BJJ is "Gracie" BJJ.
> 
> That's like saying, "Well, you know, most modern judo players don't train 'Kano' judo.'"


To dive a little further into it, all BJJ is based of Gracie JJ which is based off of Judo. (IronMan this isn't aimed at you) Kano took traditional jujitsu and eliminated what didn't work in real combat and eliminated it and kept what did, (modern Judo is not stylistically that similar to Kano's judo which had a substantial basis on submissions. Due to the scoring or sport judo the sport has evolved around what scores points) When the Gracies learnt Judo and were teaching it Helio the smallest brother took Kano's reformed jujitsu (Judo) and added the principals of leverage so that it became a more effective weapon for the little guy to use against a bigger guy. 

The BJJ family tree looks like this,


BJJ<Gracie JJ<Judo<Traditional Jujistu


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## Freelancer

Toxic said:


> To dive a little further into it, all BJJ is based of Gracie JJ which is based off of Judo. (IronMan this isn't aimed at you) Kano took traditional jujitsu and eliminated what didn't work in real combat and eliminated it and kept what did, (modern Judo is not stylistically that similar to Kano's judo which had a substantial basis on submissions. Due to the scoring or sport judo the sport has evolved around what scores points) When the Gracies learnt Judo and were teaching it Helio the smallest brother took Kano's reformed jujitsu (Judo) and added the principals of leverage so that it became a more effective weapon for the little guy to use against a bigger guy.
> 
> The BJJ family tree looks like this,
> 
> 
> BJJ<Gracie JJ<Judo<Traditional Jujistu


Very well said, just one small thing. Kano didn't remove from JJ the things that didn't work in combat. He removed things that relied too much on strength.


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## IronMan

Toxic said:


> To dive a little further into it, all BJJ is based of Gracie JJ which is based off of Judo. (IronMan this isn't aimed at you) Kano took traditional jujitsu and eliminated what didn't work in real combat and eliminated it and kept what did, (modern Judo is not stylistically that similar to Kano's judo which had a substantial basis on submissions. Due to the scoring or sport judo the sport has evolved around what scores points) When the Gracies learnt Judo and were teaching it Helio the smallest brother took Kano's reformed jujitsu (Judo) and added the principals of leverage so that it became a more effective weapon for the little guy to use against a bigger guy.
> 
> The BJJ family tree looks like this,
> 
> 
> BJJ<Gracie JJ<Judo<Traditional Jujistu


I realize this mini-history lesson wasn't for me, but it's worth pointing out that both the beginning and end of spectrum ("traditional jujitsu" and "BJJ") are really not individual systems.

Kano's lineage in traditional jujitsu systems is well documented, but there really isn't *a* traditional jujitsu system during Kano's lifetime. He had a background in Shinyo-Ryu, and an awareness of a number of other styles and approaches, but the Japanese "jujitsu" of the time was really a clusterf*ck.

Similarly, contemporary "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" is hard to discuss as one system as well. I mean, clearly it is a single sport, but the schools of thought are enormously varied, between gi and no-gi schools and between traditional approaches to the guard and less traditional approaches.

Even between the two major lineages of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, around which all contemporary BJJ is centered, the lineages of Carlson Gracie Sr. and Helio Gracie, there are some major pedagogical and stylistic differences. And that's before you get into the difference between major academies like Humaita and Barra and Alliance and so on.

BJJ is quickly become a number of different martial arts, so it becomes tricky to think of it strictly in terms of being a single system. I think that in 20 or 30 years, as a conservative estimate, we'll have to stop thinking about it that way.


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## munkie

Regardless what you wrongly believe, fighting does evolve. But only because the fighters evolve. That being said, as much as I love Bruce Lee, I'm sorry to say he would lose at a significantly higher clip than he'd win. While top of the food chain during his time, he'd be lucky to successfully implement his traditional style 10% of the time. Too many wrestlers, submission grapplers, kickboxers, thai boxers, too many athletes, that are physically on another level compared to him. Again, I'm sorry to say, every top tier fighter in any organization easily rival or surpass him at the skills he was great at. While they are exponentially better at the other aspects of fighting. Bruce Lee then, would probably clean out, or at least be top class in, any Full Contact Karate circuit now. But in MMA, your opponent won't stand back and let you strike.


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## VolcomX311

Great posts and good reads from the lot of you. I enjoyed the history course on BJJ/MMA.


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## Misaka

Bruce Lee father of American Full Contact? By Joe Lewis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67NdOX2lj-k


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## Toxic

IronMan said:


> I realize this mini-history lesson wasn't for me, but it's worth pointing out that both the beginning and end of spectrum ("traditional jujitsu" and "BJJ") are really not individual systems.
> 
> Kano's lineage in traditional jujitsu systems is well documented, but there really isn't *a* traditional jujitsu system during Kano's lifetime. He had a background in Shinyo-Ryu, and an awareness of a number of other styles and approaches, but the Japanese "jujitsu" of the time was really a clusterf*ck.
> 
> Similarly, contemporary "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" is hard to discuss as one system as well. I mean, clearly it is a single sport, but the schools of thought are enormously varied, between gi and no-gi schools and between traditional approaches to the guard and less traditional approaches.
> 
> Even between the two major lineages of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, around which all contemporary BJJ is centered, the lineages of Carlson Gracie Sr. and Helio Gracie, there are some major pedagogical and stylistic differences. And that's before you get into the difference between major academies like Humaita and Barra and Alliance and so on.
> 
> BJJ is quickly become a number of different martial arts, so it becomes tricky to think of it strictly in terms of being a single system. I think that in 20 or 30 years, as a conservative estimate, we'll have to stop thinking about it that way.


Already when discussing a fighter with its better to discusss it in terms of who is the better grappler, often times people assume that is the guy with the better BJJ but if you look at a guy like Jeff Monson is is a good pure grappler and very accomplished I would hardly call him a wrestler or a Judoko or for that matter a BJJ guy. IMO he is the best example off the top of my head were the lines really become blurred as unlike guys like Demian Maia, Monson fails to fall into any of the boxes we typically view fighters as being in.


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## kantowrestler

*Monson*

He could fall into the catch wrestling discipline!


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## IronMan

Toxic said:


> Already when discussing a fighter with its better to discusss it in terms of who is the better grappler, often times people assume that is the guy with the better BJJ but if you look at a guy like Jeff Monson is is a good pure grappler and very accomplished I would hardly call him a wrestler or a Judoko or for that matter a BJJ guy. IMO he is the best example off the top of my head were the lines really become blurred as unlike guys like Demian Maia, Monson fails to fall into any of the boxes we typically view fighters as being in.


There are some guys who are just "grapplers," and Monson is one of those guys. I totally agree with what you're saying about his fighting style, and while I do see a lot of BJJ in it, it's clearly not a what people think of when they think "BJJ fighter," like a Demian Maia or a Roger Gracie.

A lot of that is stylistic, though. With Monson's build, he was never going to have the same fighting style as (since I've mentioned them already) Maia or Roger. Conventional techniques in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, especially when working with a guy in the closed guard, or from the mount, or when you get control of the back, simply don't work for guys with the build of a Jeff Monson. You have to have at least moderately long limbs to do the manipulations, and Monson can't do that.

It's worth mentioning that there are a number of guys in the world of BJJ who are considered BJJ guys, but have games very similar to Monson. Mauricio Motta Gomes and Fabio Gurgel were like that in a lot of ways. Of course, they aren't as extreme cases as Monson, but I feel like the do illustrate a similar style of grappling applied to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

Jeff Monson does blur the lines, especially when it comes to the way that we think about what makes someone a wrestler or a judoka or a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter. These are things which, realistically, are kind of superficial in terms of the substantive value of the distinctions, once those athletes enter the realm of pure grappling, where they do have to do everything.


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## kantowrestler

*Another Option*

Or as I said Monson could also fall into the catch wrestling classification!


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## IronMan

kantowrestler said:


> Or as I said Monson could also fall into the catch wrestling classification!


But, of course, he's not a catch wrestler.

Monson has an extensive grappling background which includes a Pac 10 championship in folkstyle wrestling and a blackbelt in BJJ, but he has no background in catch wrestling.


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## Drogo

I'm bookmarking some of these pages with Ironman's and Toxic's replies for future arguments with foolish/ignorant people about Bruce Lee. Some people believe what they want to believe and have no interest in logic or evidence.


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## Chileandude

IronMan said:


> Even between the two major lineages of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, around which all contemporary BJJ is centered, the lineages of Carlson Gracie Sr. and Helio Gracie, there are some major pedagogical and stylistic differences. And that's before you get into the difference between major academies like Humaita and Barra and Alliance and so on.


would you care to illustrate us on those differences? or at least reference them so i can do some research?


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## IronMan

Chileandude said:


> would you care to illustrate us on those differences? or at least reference them so i can do some research?


There isn't a whole lot written about the major pedagogical differences. To get that, it's really worth training with a good number of the instructors. I'm speaking from experience as far as that goes.

As far as the stylistic differences go, I suggest checking out the differences between some of the larger name Humaita grapplers and Gracie Barra guys. Focussing on the demos and seminar videos is probably the best way to do research, because (in competition) all of the guys are going to be all over the place. It's more helpful to see what they look like when they're not having to deal with another style.

I'll post two videos and I can mention a little bit of what I'm talking about.











Obviously, you're going to have to put together a larger sample size than this to verify, but it does give me a chance to get at the differences that I think are pretty substantial.

Clearly there's a qualitative difference between Royler and Rickson and the guys at the University of Hawaii, but setting that aside for a moment and focussing on the selection of techniques that are demonstrated gets to the point.

The throws that Royler and Rickson, who come out of the Humaita tradition, are demonstrating are very simple. They're not really even throws. They're actually trips that are basically just designed to get them to the mat in a position that they feel comfortable so that they can win fights. If you go back and watch the early UFC's, this is a clear theme of Royce's attack plan.

The demo from the Gracie Barra team, on the other hand, looks like judo (though judo with much, much more technical matwork than your likely to see in a typical demonstration). There are more advanced throws which are done for the sake of landing a hard throw, not simply to get the opponent to the mat.

This is a stylistic difference that you'll see a lot of in the different traditions, because of the way that Helio changed BJJ, which has a stronger pull in the Humaita lineage. Helio was much, much less concerned with the throws in judo, because of his build, and so much of his focus in his game (and, as a result, in his teaching) was on simply getting the fight to the ground in a way that creates an advantage, regardless of whether it would score an ippon in a judo match.

Carlson, on the other hand, was more traditional in his approach to judo, and that comes across in his lineage.


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## Freelancer

IronMan said:


> There isn't a whole lot written about the major pedagogical differences. To get that, it's really worth training with a good number of the instructors. I'm speaking from experience as far as that goes.
> 
> As far as the stylistic differences go, I suggest checking out the differences between some of the larger name Humaita grapplers and Gracie Barra guys. Focussing on the demos and seminar videos is probably the best way to do research, because (in competition) all of the guys are going to be all over the place. It's more helpful to see what they look like when they're not having to deal with another style.
> 
> I'll post two videos and I can mention a little bit of what I'm talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, you're going to have to put together a larger sample size than this to verify, but it does give me a chance to get at the differences that I think are pretty substantial.
> 
> Clearly there's a qualitative difference between Royler and Rickson and the guys at the University of Hawaii, but setting that aside for a moment and focussing on the selection of techniques that are demonstrated gets to the point.
> 
> The throws that Royler and Rickson, who come out of the Humaita tradition, are demonstrating are very simple. They're not really even throws. They're actually trips that are basically just designed to get them to the mat in a position that they feel comfortable so that they can win fights. If you go back and watch the early UFC's, this is a clear theme of Royce's attack plan.
> 
> The demo from the Gracie Barra team, on the other hand, looks like judo (though judo with much, much more technical matwork than your likely to see in a typical demonstration). There are more advanced throws which are done for the sake of landing a hard throw, not simply to get the opponent to the mat.
> 
> This is a stylistic difference that you'll see a lot of in the different traditions, because of the way that Helio changed BJJ, which has a stronger pull in the Humaita lineage. Helio was much, much less concerned with the throws in judo, because of his build, and so much of his focus in his game (and, as a result, in his teaching) was on simply getting the fight to the ground in a way that creates an advantage, regardless of whether it would score an ippon in a judo match.
> 
> Carlson, on the other hand, was more traditional in his approach to judo, and that comes across in his lineage.


Somehow I didn't notice that much of a difference in the videos.:dunno:
They both used basic hip throws as far as I can see.


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## kantowrestler

*Hip Throws*

A takedown is a takedown!


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## Freelancer

kantowrestler said:


> A takedown is a takedown!


I don't understand what you wanted say.


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## kantowrestler

*Understand*

Throws and all that!


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## gogomata

Just heard Danna White say "Bruce Lee is the father of Mixed Martial Arts" on the History Channel and was reminded of this thread.


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## Liddellianenko




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## kantowrestler

Liddellianenko said:


>


What the ****?:confused03:


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## JWP

he wouldve struggled with good wrestlers one would think, but who knows, with his power, strength and speed anything would be possible

it would be silly to strike with him

i have to admit i didnt think the op was serious at first



with his mind and a years mma training, i think he would be competitive in his weight class

a good fighter is a good fighter. the combination of vision, testimonys and his literature suggest he was one. it was you yanks that screwed his head up btw

just joking. incedentally, much of his philosophy was inspirational to me and will always remain a hero of mine


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## xeberus

kantowrestler said:


> What the ****?:confused03:


if emma watson became a zombie... id probably **** it :confused05:


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## kantowrestler

If she didn't decompose too badly I could see that. If she were a zombie I wouldn't because I'm not that taboo. Back to something relavent I have to agree that Bruce probably would have trouble with very skilled wrestlers!:thumbsup:


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## VincePierce

shadow_dragon said:


> Hi all, I'm new to this forum and was wondering if you could all help me settle a long running debate I have been having with my friends.
> 
> Everyone knows that Bruce Lee is the greatest fighter ever and I tell my friends who all watch UFC that he could easily defeat any of them however they all tell me I'm wrong. The main reasons I feel he could beat any UFC (or MMA fighter) is:
> 
> One inch punch - I feel this is his strongest ally as it requires little room (1 inch) to deploy it so could be done even when being grabbled and the speed of it cannot be blocked. Anyone he hits with this is as good as finished
> Didn't need to fight people on the ground - from what ive seen most mma is ended on the ground with some unwieldy hold however Bruce PERFECTED the art of beating his opponents whilst they were standing up. In short he would not need to rely about getting them on the ground
> Mental toughness - the brain can be the warriors strongest or weakest weapon. Bruce was subjected to a rigorous training regime like no other on earth plus allegedly achieved enlightenment so his mental prowess would ensure his victory
> 
> There are a few more points but I feel that makes my case, any honest feedback or constructive criticism would be much appreciated. No haterz though.
> 
> Shadow Dragon


bruce lee lovers do more to dicredit his legacy than anything he ever did. 

the simple truth is we will never know how bruce lee would do in MMA as he is dead.

However a lot of the stuff bruce lee was into was not meant for sports. 

And a lot of the people that followed in his footsteps would get destroyed in the octagon. 

what you have is idiots on both sides with nothing but nut hugging and ignorance to go on. 

Every time you watch mma and see someone get pinkied in the eye or kicked in the nuts thats the banned side and its potency. 

everytime you watch mma and see someone who is proficient in striking get gnp'd through the floor, thats the traditional martial arts in mma.

the irony of course is that bruce lee wasnt about tradition or legend. if he hadnt died one would imagine he would be a cautious admirer or the sport. if he was born in its wake, one would imagine he might even fight. comparing him and his training to the sometimes smoking alumni of TUF, it is easy to see him doing well in his weight class. i do believe just as GSP, BJ Penn and some of the great proponents of the sport have that special martial arts mentality, so of course did lee. 

in the context of streetfighting ...who knows.

in the context of mma anything past admiring his work ethic and mentality is conjecture.


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## Voiceless

Bruce Lee's worth _wasn'_t primarily his physical abilities (which according to people who met him were extraordinary, so he might have done well in MMA), but _is_ his reasoning approach to martial arts. He was revolutionary in opening, mixing up martial arts and getting rid of things that didn't work in a martial arts environment/period where most of the traditional stuff was closed door inbreed with lost bonds to reality.

The legacy of his knowledge and his theories is incomparable bigger than any championship in a competition he may have won ever could be. Unfortunately he is dead now, so the question on how well he would do in MMA today cannot be answered and doesn't matter really. Reducing him to that question is really discrediting his achievements.


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## Budhisten

Whoever brought this thread of doom back from the dead should be banned, like right now... And until forever... Go away, do everybody a favor...


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## IronMan




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## kantowrestler

Is that even a zombie?


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