# Tiger Woods Thread



## RushFan (Aug 25, 2007)

This thread replaces the Tiger Woods discussion that emerged recently. 
I was alarmed to discover that many forum users do not view Tiger Woods as an elite athlete or even consider golf a sport. 
What is your opinion?


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

I think Tiger is an elite athlete and that golf is a sport. My problem was with people saying that he has the greatest mental toughness in sports today. How can he be considered for that title when he has never won from behind in the final round of a major.


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## RushFan (Aug 25, 2007)

You say that like it's easy to do. He hasn't yet but I'm sure he will at some stage in his career. 
There are so many other stats that positively support his mental toughness. 43 - 3 when leading into final day of tournaments. 13 - 0 when at least tied for lead after 54 holes in Majors. He has been heralded as "the greatest closer in history" by multiple golf experts.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

How can he be the greatest if he can't make a comeback? Your right he may eventually make a comeback but the fact of the matter is he hasn't yet. Every athlete that is considered great in other sports has had to have some type of comeback. You have to be good in the clutch and Tiger needs to prove that he can gets past this block that he has. Thats like a fighter not being able to comeback to win a fight in the last round after he lost the first two rounds.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

Elite athlete:
http://dontcostnothing.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/who-are-the-richest-athletes-in-the-world/


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

wukkadb said:


> Elite athlete:
> http://dontcostnothing.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/who-are-the-richest-athletes-in-the-world/


If we are judging elite athlete's on what they make than Barry Zito has got to be near the top. He has a contract worth $126 million and an $18 million option for 2014, which would bring his contract to $137 million. He is getting about $18 million a year out of this contract yet heis 0-8 this season and had a horrible season last year. The Giants even put him in the bullpen because of how bad he has been.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

I voted for golf being a sport, but i have to be biased because it puts food on our table.

Yes Tiger Woods is an elite athlete. (dave chappelle as tiger voice) fer shizzle.


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

Tiger Woods is an elite athlete and Golf is a sport. Are all golfers elite athletes though? Hell no.

Tiger Woods works his butt off in the gym, can lift a ton, runs daily. The man is an athlete, but only because he has made himself one. Golf did not make him an athlete because its not an incredibly rigorous sport. However, it takes skill and smarts and of course its a sport.



MLS said:


> How can he be the greatest if he can't make a comeback? Your right he may eventually make a comeback but the fact of the matter is he hasn't yet. Every athlete that is considered great in other sports has had to have some type of comeback. You have to be good in the clutch and Tiger needs to prove that he can gets past this block that he has. Thats like a fighter not being able to comeback to win a fight in the last round after he lost the first two rounds.


To be fair, he hasn't been in the position to make a Sunday comeback more than 5 times. He's usually either running away with the trophy already or is more than 5 shots back. Those times he has been within striking distance, he hasn't got it done, but he has never lost ground. Most of the time, it comes down to whoever is in the lead plays a great round of golf on Sunday and he can't make it up.

I agree that a comeback win in a Major will cap off his career, but the dude is already the best without it.


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## kamikaze145 (Oct 3, 2006)

Yes golf is a sport, its a very technical sport. It is not as physically demanding as most sports but it makes up for that with having the technical aspect. Tiger Woods is an elite athlete. He is NOT the toughest athlete. He is a rich kid who has played golf his whole life, that is not tough to me. To me Roger Huerta is tough, horrible childhood, overcame that and is finishing college and shows an extreme amount of heart in every fight. I just dont see how you can say Tiger Woods is so tough, even when you take into consideration mental toughness(which woods has) he isnt number one.


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## Lotus (Jul 4, 2007)

Tiger is an elite athlete yes but i disagree that golf is a sport per se. I do however believe it takes great skill to be very good at it and it takes a lot of determination and what have you but i just have never been able to call it a sport. A game sure, an activity sure but sport no.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

kds13 said:


> Tiger Woods is an elite athlete and Golf is a sport. Are all golfers elite athletes though? Hell no.


Agreed.


Tiger is definitely an elite athlete and I did vote for Golf being a sport- it may not require super athletic skills(see John Daly puffin' and drinkin') or an athletic physique(see Phil Mickelson's glorious man-boobs) but the mental toughness, practice of long hours honing different shots with different clubs and the maintenance of your body to remain strong and flexible. A lot of golfers did not work out until Tiger came onto the scene and his driving length forced them to adapt their game(and physical abilities) to try and catch up with him. 

You can also see Tiger's development and changed swing- back when he first entered the PGA the announcers would talk about his crazy body torque on his drives, knowing that over time that would put to much stress on his low back and knees he adapted his swing. Now it's tighter and puts less stress on his body. Tiger is definitely an elite athlete.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

kds13 said:


> To be fair, he hasn't been in the position to make a Sunday comeback more than 5 times. He's usually either running away with the trophy already or is more than 5 shots back. Those times he has been within striking distance, he hasn't got it done, but he has never lost ground. Most of the time, it comes down to whoever is in the lead plays a great round of golf on Sunday and he can't make it up.
> 
> I agree that a comeback win in a Major will cap off his career, but the dude is already the best without it.


If he retired today would you say he is the best? I just get the feeling that people put him as the best all time because of what he will probably do. Everyone think he will break all the major (events as well as in terms of big) records but he hasn't yet.

Also on the mental toughness thing, it's not that hard to distract a golf player and break his concentration. We have seen this from many players including Tiger.


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## RushFan (Aug 25, 2007)

MLS said:


> Also on the mental toughness thing, it's not that hard to distract a golf player and break his concentration. We have seen this from many players including Tiger.


Doesn't that reinforce just how difficult golf is? It is an accepted standard that there should be as close to complete silence whilst a golfer takes his swing due to the mental concentration required to complete an effective stroke. Golf is a hugely mental game. *Every* professional golfer is sensitive to distractions from unruly fans.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> If he retired today would you say he is the best? I just get the feeling that people put him as the best all time because of what he will probably do. Everyone think he will break all the major (events as well as in terms of big) records but he hasn't yet.
> 
> Also on the mental toughness thing, it's not that hard to distract a golf player and break his concentration. We have seen this from many players including Tiger.



I would actually say yes he is the best ever. More than going for 18 majors is the streak he had of "made cuts". I can't remember what it was when it got snapped a couple of years ago but it was insanely long- like freaky crazy long. Golfers have bad days and every player goes through bad streaks but his bad days still got him through the cut and to do it as long as he did is enough for me(plus his 13 majors and huge list of other wins) to call him the best ever. It's all hypothetical either way when saying a player is the best-ever in any sport.

As to the mental toughness by distracting them(I love it when Stevie goes ape-sh!t on a fan for clicking a picture during Tiger's backswing)- it's how golf has been played forever- with silence. That's just part of the game if they allowed cheering or jeering during a player's swing I'm sure over time they could adapt to it but that's just not how it's played.

Silence can be deafening- standing over an 8 foot putt to make par and win a tournament with thousands of people surrounding the green, the announcers in the TV booth critiquing your every single move and plus the possible thousands or millions of viewers is mind boggling to consider let alone deal with.


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

This thread is a lot different from the one that was being discussed before. The topic before was about Tiger being the TOUGHEST athlete. That's a lot different then being an ELITE athlete. 

Do I think he's an elite athlete, yes. And I don't blame you for wording it the way you did in this thread. You're going to get a lot more positive responses. 

Do I think he's the toughest athlete??? Not in a million years. I believe he's a VERY focused man that has shown the ability to use the fine muscle movements over and over with a smaller percentage of mistakes then most other golfers. This doesn't make him the toughest. 

If you want to have the discussion of him being and elite athlete, by all means do. But I for one, don't think that has anything to do with the conversation that got the topic started.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

As the only person to say "Tiger Woods is not an elite athlete," let me explain what I mean by _athlete._

An athlete is someone who is athletic, someone who shows incredible general physical prowess. That is to say: a combination of strength, speed, agility, coordination and skill in their sport.

A real elite athlete is someone who can play their sport, but also has the physical conditioning and skills to play another sport, not on the same level, but very, very well.

Reggie Bush is an elite athlete, because if he played basketball, he could dunk and he could move and his athleticism would remain consistent.

If you took Tiger of the golf course he might be a guy in very good shape (in fact, he is a guy in very good shape), but he wouldn't be able to move like a pro in another sport. He can't run a 40 like an elite athlete, he can't hit the bench like an elite athlete and he can't thread the needle like an elite athlete. That's my criteria.

Is Tiger a great _sportsman_, sure. I have no problem with people saying he's one of the greatest sportsmen of all time, but when you start calling him an athlete, you are saying that he is _athletically_ comparable to guys like Michael Jordan and Muhammad Ali and that's just not true.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Chrisl972 said:


> Do I think he's the toughest athlete???


You're right, Chris. This is a very different question.

That said, the toughest athlete wouldn't complain about flashbulbs in his backswing.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

Chrisl972 said:


> This thread is a lot different from the one that was being discussed before. The topic before was about Tiger being the TOUGHEST athlete. That's a lot different then being an ELITE athlete.


I can't get to the thread now because it is closed, but I believe it was exactly what the argument was. Alex_DeLarge began with a diatribe of Tiger Woods and golf being a professional sport, after Tiger was #2 (?) on ESPN's list of toughest athletes. "Toughness" was only brought up to refer to his mental toughness. Golf was then bashed as a sport and Tiger as an athlete. The problem RushFan came accross (IMO) was posts such as "It isn't a sport if after you hit the ball you don't run to it - you get in a cart" or "how much athletic talent does it take to hit a ball with a stick four feet?" 

I don't remember the wording being along the lines of "Tiger Woods is one of the toughest athletes" in terms of enduring physical stress. I'm not trying to get into an argument here, but IMO the wording of this post is pretty much exactly what he was debating on the last thread. As I recall, one of the final posts was from a mod states, "if you guys want to debate on whether or not Tiger Woods is an athlete, START A THREAD, otherwise this thread is about fighters that have not been KO'd before."

PS - My opinion is such: Tiger Woods is an ELITE athlete and golf is a sport. :thumbsup:



IronMan said:


> An athlete is someone who is athletic, someone who shows incredible general physical prowess. That is to say: a combination of strength, speed, agility, coordination and skill in their sport.


I think Tiger Woods is a perfect example of such.



IronMan said:


> A real elite athlete is someone who can play their sport, but also has the physical conditioning and skills to play another sport, not on the same level, but very, very well.
> 
> If you took Tiger of the golf course he might be a guy in very good shape (in fact, he is a guy in very good shape), but he wouldn't be able to move like a pro in another sport. He can't run a 40 like an elite athlete, he can't hit the bench like an elite athlete and he can't thread the needle like an elite athlete. That's my criteria.


I have a problem with this in that if you take Federer off the court, I don't think he will compete in other sports. Is he not an elite athlete? If you take Crosby or Ovechkin off the ice, their 40s might not be quite that fast for they are using different muscles of their legs. Are they not elite? Ali probably wouldn't have run that quick of a 40...or Lenox Lewis. Wayne Gretzky, Kaka, Ronaldo, etc, I'm not sure if any of them would be able to dominate other sports. Does that make them less of elite athletes? I don't think so. Michael Jordan was able to almost go pro at baseball and Deon Sanders and Bo Jackson played two sports professionally, while Tom Glavine was drafted by the MLB and NHL. IMO that makes them more ATHLETIC, but not more of an elite athlete.

When you not only master, but dominate your discipline that is known to be considered a "sport" - IMO you are an elite athlete. Tiger Woods has done it like few else in professional sports have.


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## 6sidedlie (Nov 19, 2006)

IronMan said:


> A real elite athlete is someone who can play their sport, but also has the physical conditioning and skills to play another sport, not on the same level, but very, very well.
> 
> Reggie Bush is an elite athlete, because if he played basketball, he could dunk and he could move and his athleticism would remain consistent.


I don't know if I agree with this. Hockey players are some of the toughest and best conditioned athletes in the world but god knows they would not be able to play basketball worth shit. Golfing on the other hand.. no problem.

Tiger Woods is an elite athlete. I am confident in saying if you asked the top 10 basketball, baseball, football and hockey players if he was an athlete 80-90% would agree.

My bad ALLINGSP, I didn't read your post but we had the same thinking. Smart men think exactly alike!


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## RushFan (Aug 25, 2007)

For some reason the definition of "toughness" on this thread derives from the risk to life and limb. Therefore, How could any MMA athlete compare their "toughness" to a free style mountain climber or a sky diver?
I repeat, the debate is about "Mental Toughness". Almost every MMA athlete rides a wave of euphoria throughout an MMA bout. This is a primary attraction to the sport for many "adrenaline junkies". I don't want to have to say this but, For most MMA practitioners there is very little mental aspect to their fighting style. They enter the octagon to enact certain trained aspects of fighting and can be reassured by the fact they will be relatively unharmed if they fail because a referee will save them. Does that constitute mental toughness?


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

kamikaze145 said:


> YHe is a rich kid who has played golf his whole life, that is not tough to me. To me Roger Huerta is tough, horrible childhood, overcame that and is finishing college and shows an extreme amount of heart in every fight.


So, can anyone be elite if they are unfortunate enough to be raised in a good environment? I don't see how if you are comparing what two adults are like now, there childhood affects it.


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

All_In_GSP said:


> I can't get to the thread now because it is closed, but I believe it was exactly what the argument was. Alex_DeLarge began with a diatribe of Tiger Woods and golf being a professional sport, after Tiger was #2 (?) on ESPN's list of toughest athletes. "Toughness" was only brought up to refer to his mental toughness. Golf was then bashed as a sport and Tiger as an athlete. The problem RushFan came accross (IMO) was posts such as "It isn't a sport if after you hit the ball you don't run to it - you get in a cart" or "how much athletic talent does it take to hit a ball with a stick four feet?"
> 
> I don't remember the wording being along the lines of "Tiger Woods is one of the toughest athletes" in terms of enduring physical stress. I'm not trying to get into an argument here, but IMO the wording of this post is pretty much exactly what he was debating on the last thread. As I recall, one of the final posts was from a mod states, "if you guys want to debate on whether or not Tiger Woods is an athlete, START A THREAD, otherwise this thread is about fighters that have not been KO'd before."
> 
> PS - My opinion is such: Tiger Woods is an ELITE athlete and golf is a sport. :thumbsup:


I stand corrected. I forgot that it had gotten so far off path that the course had shifted a few times. 

The funny part was that it was me that made the post you are reffering to. (Which I'm sure you knew already, thank you for not calling me out on it. )



Chrisl972 said:


> OK, If you guys want to talk about Tiger not being an *athlete*, start a new thread about it. This thread is about MMA fighters that have never been knocked out. Please stay on topic, so I don't have to close this thread.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

RushFan said:


> Doesn't that reinforce just how difficult golf is? It is an accepted standard that there should be as close to complete silence whilst a golfer takes his swing due to the mental concentration required to complete an effective stroke. Golf is a hugely mental game. *Every* professional golfer is sensitive to distractions from unruly fans.


So who is tougher a golfer or a basketball player who is shooting every shot with thousands of fans making noise or a kicker in football making a kick with thousands of fans making noise. Do you ever see any other athlete freak out about making a shot or kicking a ball more than you do when a golfer hits the ball?



Walker said:


> I would actually say yes he is the best ever. More than going for 18 majors is the streak he had of "made cuts". I can't remember what it was when it got snapped a couple of years ago but it was insanely long- like freaky crazy long. Golfers have bad days and every player goes through bad streaks but his bad days still got him through the cut and to do it as long as he did is enough for me(plus his 13 majors and huge list of other wins) to call him the best ever. It's all hypothetical either way when saying a player is the best-ever in any sport.
> 
> As to the mental toughness by distracting them(I love it when Stevie goes ape-sh!t on a fan for clicking a picture during Tiger's backswing)- it's how golf has been played forever- with silence. That's just part of the game if they allowed cheering or jeering during a player's swing I'm sure over time they could adapt to it but that's just not how it's played.
> 
> Silence can be deafening- standing over an 8 foot putt to make par and win a tournament with thousands of people surrounding the green, the announcers in the TV booth critiquing your every single move and plus the possible thousands or millions of viewers is mind boggling to consider let alone deal with.


Problem with your statement is the other guy I quoted who seems to have the same thinking as you disagree's on whether or not a golfer could overcome fans cheering. SO who is right? But refer to my post to him as well.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

All_In_GSP said:


> I think Tiger Woods is a perfect example of such.


Really. You think that Tiger can bench, high jump, sprint or weave like an elite athlete?

You're entitled to that belief. Frankly, I think that if we put him in there with a guy who is really an elite athlete, just threw him in the gym with, say, Kevin Garnett, he'd get killed.



6sidedlie said:


> I don't know if I agree with this. Hockey players are some of the toughest and best conditioned athletes in the world but god knows they would not be able to play basketball worth shit. Golfing on the other hand.. no problem.


I disagree. I've seen top tier hockey players work out, I've seen them run and I've seen them weave. Most of them, strangely, actually can jump.

They do have that level of athleticism that I'm talking about. They use their cardio on the ice, and they do use a different set of muscles, but they also have developed general muscles in the weight room and on the track.

Everybody on this thread seems to be missing the difference.

I'm not saying that Tiger's not great at what he does. I'm just saying that he doesn't have a level of _athletic_ prowess that everyone seems to think he does. A great athlete translates, and I don't think that Tiger does that.

My point about his actual toughness aside (his whining about cameras and press really does bother me, and I would never call him a "tough" athlete as a result of it), he's a great golfer, and I'm not going to say that golf isn't hard. I'm looking beyond the golf.

Someone brought up Roger Federer, and Federer has some of the best cardio, coordination, agility and speed in the world. Does he have the muscular power that a football player has? Hell no. But he does have incredible athletic ability. And if he developed the technical skills, he could play most sports based around that skill set. (definitely basketball and baseball)

What's Tiger Woods' skill set? What's athletically impressive about him besides his swing?


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Really. You think that Tiger can bench, high jump, sprint or weave like an elite athlete?


I didn't say he could bench, high jump, sprint, or weave like anyone. I used it in this context:



IronMan said:


> An athlete is someone who is athletic, someone who shows incredible general physical prowess. That is to say: a combination of strength, speed, agility, coordination and skill in their sport.





> I think Tiger Woods is a perfect example of such.


I still do.



IronMan said:


> You're entitled to that belief. Frankly, I think that if we put him in there with a guy who is really an elite athlete, just threw him in the gym with, say, Kevin Garnett, he'd get killed.


Is the gym a place that truly defines an athlete? Bryan Clay, the 2006 decathlon (arguably the most athletic people in the world) point champion wouldn't stand a chance against Garnett in the gym in regards to physical strength, but he can weave more agilely, sprint faster, and has a higher vertical leap than Garnett.



IronMan said:


> What's Tiger Woods' skill set? What's athletically impressive about him besides his swing?


What about baseball? Would Barry Bonds, Ryan Howard, Frank Thomas, Roger Clemens, or Billy Wagner be considered elite athletes in your opinion? Point being these athletes are athletes because of the skill-set they have that nobody else on the face of the earth can easily replicate. Hand-eye coordination happens to be one of those skill sets. Having control over one's body is also an underrated athletic characteristic...


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## Mr. Janks (Apr 28, 2008)

In one of the hardest sports to be dominant in this guy makes it look easy. It was mathematically proven that when Tiger is in the field the rest of the field plays worse. He is almost two strokes up before he hits his first shot! Elite athlete for sure.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

All_In_GSP said:


> I didn't say he could bench, high jump, sprint, or weave like anyone.



My point was that that is how I define athleticism, the ability to perform athletic tasks and do them well.



> I still do.


You're entitled to your opinion, I'd just like to see evidence of his athleticism beyond just his skill as a golfer.



> Is the gym a place that truly defines an athlete? Bryan Clay, the 2006 decathlon (arguably the most athletic people in the world) point champion wouldn't stand a chance against Garnett in the gym in regards to physical strength, but he can weave more agilely, sprint faster, and has a higher vertical leap than Garnett.


I'm not just talking about the weight room. The gym is a general term for a physical workout which, ideally, would test things like agility.

Would Clay's skills translate to other sports?

Damn right they would.

And, by the way, of the four events I mentioned that I'd like to test woods on (bench, high jump, weave and spring), Bryan wins three and Garnett wins one. So, yes, I think Bryan is a better athlete than Kevin Garnett.



> What about baseball? Would Barry Bonds, Ryan Howard, Frank Thomas, Roger Clemens, or Billy Wagner be considered elite athletes in your opinion? Point being these athletes are athletes because of the skill-set they have that nobody else on the face of the earth can easily replicate. Hand-eye coordination happens to be one of those skill sets. Having control over one's body is also an underrated athletic characteristic...


Don't get me started on Barry Bonds.

Still, do those guys have innate athletic skills? Some do, some don't. Thomas is a physically strong guy, but even though we still consider him a top tier baseball player, he's hardly an elite athlete. I could outrun him in the mile (or any sprint, for that matter) and I'm not exactly the king of the track.

As for guys like Wagner, there's alot of incredible athleticism that those guys show. They can run and they can move.

There are some great, top tier baseball players that are not elite athletes. There are others that are.

Would I call Mo Vaughn an elite athlete? No. I probably wouldn't.

Would I call Torii Hunter an elite athlete? Damn right. That guy can run, jump and move, so there's definitely some incredible athletic potential. The same goes for guys like Ichiro and a young Canseco (who, steroids or not, was a very, very good athlete).


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## kds13 (Nov 27, 2006)

MLS said:


> If he retired today would you say he is the best? I just get the feeling that people put him as the best all time because of what he will probably do. Everyone think he will break all the major (events as well as in terms of big) records but he hasn't yet.


Yes, he is, right now, the greatest golfer of all time. If he were to retire before breaking the all-time majors record, how can you hold it against him? He has won more majors in a shorter amount of time than anyone in history. His domination of the competition is what makes him the best. Sure, Jack may have more majors, but throughout a really prolonged career. Tiger has done what no one else has in a shorter amount of time.


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

Fair enough, my man. Just a few things…



IronMan said:


> My point was that that is how I define athleticism, the ability to perform athletic tasks and do them well.


Webster's definition of the word athlete:


> a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina.


I just feel Tiger fits the mold here.



IronMan said:


> You're entitled to your opinion, I'd just like to see evidence of his athleticism beyond just his skill as a golfer.


It's tough to find information on his regime, but I've read of him benching close to 300 lbs, running distances of 3 miles and 7 miles on given days, and working out in the gym quite a bit. I'll see if I can find some more information related to these statements.



IronMan said:


> Would Clay's skills translate to other sports? [Yes].


Would it be fair to say that Tiger's superior hand-eye coordination could translate in the MLB if given the same time and effort?



IronMan said:


> And, by the way, of the four events I mentioned that I'd like to test woods on (bench, high jump, weave and spring), Bryan wins three and Garnett wins one. So, yes, I think Bryan is a better athlete than Kevin Garnett.


Yep, I said so myself too!



IronMan said:


> There are some great, top tier baseball players that are not elite athletes. There are others that are.


I agree, but I think it works the exact same for golf.

Edit: See GMW's post below for workout regime information.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

All_In_GSP said:


> It's tough to find information on his regime, but I've read of him benching close to 300 lbs, running distances of 3 miles and 7 miles on given days, and working out in the gym quite a bit. I'll see if I can find some more information related to these statements.


It's not the best but here's some information on his work out regimen. 
http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=2921413


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

All_In_GSP said:


> Fair enough, my man. Just a few things…
> 
> Webster's definition of the word athlete:
> I just feel Tiger fits the mold here.


So golf is a sport that requires physical strength, agility and speed?

I voted to say that it's a sport. I do think that it requires a great deal of skill and personally believe that it is a sport.

My point isn't that Tiger Woods isn't an athlete, my point is that he doesn't have the _athleticism_ of other professional athletes, guy I personally consider "elite."



> It's tough to find information on his regime, but I've read of him benching close to 300 lbs, running distances of 3 miles and 7 miles on given days, and working out in the gym quite a bit. I'll see if I can find some more information related to these statements.


I don't think he benches 300. If he does, then I will apologize and say that he is a stronger dude than I initially thought he was, but I think you're getting him confused with Vijay Singh, who's a much bigger, much stronger (physically) guy.

As far as how much Tiger runs. He runs the course after every match. He's in shape, but is going to run those miles as fast as a different athlete, like, say, Bush or Garnett or Torii Hunter.



> Would it be fair to say that Tiger's superior hand-eye coordination could translate in the MLB if given the same time and effort?


Sure, but that's only one part of the game, and if we're going to say that when we should say that every baseball player in the pros with a .200+ batting average could make the PGA tour with effort. I don't think that's true, there's more to the game of golf than that.

That said, there's also more to baseball than just hitting the ball. How would Tiger move down the first base like? How would he move in the field?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but if you think that he would be at the level of an elite MLB player, like Ichiro or Hunter, I think you're absolutely nuts.

I also agree with you about Brian. I just wanted to make clear that we were on the same page.





> I agree, but I think it works the exact same for golf.
> 
> Edit: See GMW's post below for workout regime information.


As far as his personal routine, it's good but it's not impressive. I've watched guys like Baron Davis work out and I've trained with some of the guys I consider elite athletes in MMA, BJJ, wrestling and sub fighting. They go beyond that, though I'll say that it's important to note that this is Tiger's routine for rehab and not his regular workout, at least from what I gathered.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> So who is tougher a golfer or a basketball player who is shooting every shot with thousands of fans making noise or a kicker in football making a kick with thousands of fans making noise. Do you ever see any other athlete freak out about making a shot or kicking a ball more than you do when a golfer hits the ball?
> 
> 
> 
> Problem with your statement is the other guy I quoted who seems to have the same thinking as you disagree's on whether or not a golfer could overcome fans cheering. SO who is right? But refer to my post to him as well.


Wow this has turned into a healthly debate- just got back so I'll start here. To the freaking out part- yes I've seen plenty of athletes freak out after missing a shot/kick/etc baseball players react badly at times after striking out in key situations, kickers in NFL have buried their heads in their hands and dropped to the field, soccer players have done the same after missing a penalty shot or an easy one. Every player reacts somehow after a bad miss some contain it internally and some let whatever explode out of them.

With regards to the crowd noise I really think it's a moot point- it just isn't done so whether or not a golfer could adapt it's hard to argue either way. When golf was invented in Scotland but they decided to hurl insults or haggis at each others' head during the backswing or putting- over time, yes I think they would have adapted had that been the common practice and golfers today would be used to it. That's why I think it's a moot point- it's just not done and hasn't been done.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Walker said:


> Wow this has turned into a healthly debate- just got back so I'll start here. To the freaking out part- yes I've seen plenty of athletes freak out after missing a shot/kick/etc baseball players react badly at times after striking out in key situations, kickers in NFL have buried their heads in their hands and dropped to the field, soccer players have done the same after missing a penalty shot or an easy one. Every player reacts somehow after a bad miss some contain it internally and some let whatever explode out of them.
> 
> With regards to the crowd noise I really think it's a moot point- it just isn't done so whether or not a golfer could adapt it's hard to argue either way. When golf was invented in Scotland but they decided to hurl insults or haggis at each others' head during the backswing or putting- over time, yes I think they would have adapted had that been the common practice and golfers today would be used to it. That's why I think it's a moot point- it's just not done and hasn't been done.


It's not moot because how can you continue to say that Tiger has the greatest mental toughness when he can't deal with something every other althlete has to deal with?


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## All_In (Aug 23, 2007)

IronMan said:


> So golf is a sport that requires physical strength, agility and speed?


Webster's definition of the word athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina.

I think it does require stamina, not speed. But in regards to Tiger Woods as an individual, being a track star and running long distance prior to sticking solely with golf would, in my book, classify him as having speed. I think it takes agility to contort his body the way he does in order to maximize power in his swing. I think it takes strength to hit the ball as far as he does or put the kind of spin of the ball that he does.



IronMan said:


> Sure, but that's only one part of the game, and if we're going to say that when we should say that every baseball player in the pros with a .200+ batting average could make the PGA tour with effort. I don't think that's true, there's more to the game of golf than that.


The only reason I mentioned baseball was because part of your definition of an athlete entailed being good at another sport:



IronMan said:


> A real elite athlete is someone who can play their sport, but also has the physical conditioning and skills to play another sport, not on the same level, but very, very well.
> 
> Reggie Bush is an elite athlete, because if he played basketball, he could dunk and he could move and his athleticism would remain consistent.





IronMan said:


> That said, there's also more to baseball than just hitting the ball. How would Tiger move down the first base like? How would he move in the field?


I also brought it up because you thought I assumed Tiger's golf swing would translate into a good baseball swing. I only mentioned this transition because you had seemed to make one with Reggie Bush, from football to basketball. Can Reggie Bush dribble well? Can he drive to his left or make a left-handed lay-up? Does he know his place in the defense? Can he shoot? Can he make a shot with a 6'8" defender on him? There are variables that go along with a transition from football to basketball in the same way there are for golf to baseball. I'm certainly not suggesting John Daly start as a DH over David Ortiz!



IronMan said:


> As far as his personal routine, it's good but it's not impressive. I've watched guys like Baron Davis work out and I've trained with some of the guys I consider elite athletes in MMA, BJJ, wrestling and sub fighting. They go beyond that, though I'll say that it's important to note that this is Tiger's routine for rehab and not his regular workout, at least from what I gathered.


Baron Davis has a different demand from his sport than does Tiger. Just because golf doesn't demand Tiger doesn't demonstrate all of your demanding characteristics to be an athlete, does not imply that Tiger does not possess them. He is sticking to what he does best, and what can earn him the most money. He is predicted to be the first athlete to break 1 billion by 2010 so there is plenty of incentive for him NOT to show his athletic talents in other sports realms.



IronMan said:


> There are some great, top tier baseball players that are not elite athletes. There are others that are.


If this statement can be true for baseball, why not golf?



IronMan said:


> I voted to say that it's a sport. I do think that it requires a great deal of skill and personally believe that it is a sport.


If something is given a label of a sport, aren't the participants considered athletes? And if someone dominates that one sport, are they not elite?


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> It's not moot because how can you continue to say that Tiger has the greatest mental toughness when he can't deal with something every other althlete has to deal with?


Hey man I never said Tiger has the "greatest mental toughness"-



Walker said:


> Tiger is definitely an elite athlete and I did vote for Golf being a sport- it may not require super athletic skills(see John Daly puffin' and drinkin') or an athletic physique(see *Phil Mickelson's glorious man-boobs*) but the mental toughness, practice of long hours honing different shots with different clubs and the maintenance of your body to remain strong and flexible. A lot of golfers did not work out until Tiger came onto the scene and his driving length forced them to adapt their game(and physical abilities) to try and catch up with him.


That's all I said about that(and I highlighted the part about Phil's Moobies because I want the next thread to debate the pros and cons of man boobs in sports  ). I still think it's a moot point just because introducing crowd into golf would be akin to deciding to turn off all the lights in a basketball arena during free throws to make them more challenging. It just isn't done so it's hard to debate it. I do honestly think that had crowd noise always been done at golf events then I think players would have adapted to it over the years that golf has been around. The silence in golf is a challenge in it's own right as you have to have the mental strength to concentrate as you feel every eye on you but hear nothing. It's weird but it can be unnerving.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Walker said:


> Hey man I never said Tiger has the "greatest mental toughness"-


That is one half of the debate going on here. Some people say he has the greattest mental toughness and some don't. I just want to know how someone can consider him that when he can't deal with something that every other athlete has to deal with.


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