# Lack of professionalism at UFC 116



## Kin (May 22, 2007)

Now I'm usually not one to criticism the pros, because I mean, they're the pros. They do this for a living and they have much more experience and knowledge than I do, and they deserve respect proportionate to those facts. But with that respect, there are standards and expectations that ought to be upheld. 

First and foremost, I was disappointed by how Shane Carwin gassed himself out in the first round. He was looking great, but he failed to pace himself, and possibly didn't even come in with enough cardio. He very well could have finished Lesnar had he picked his shots and kept them coming, but he allowed Lesnar to come back even though victory was within his grasp. Carwin was barely there in the second, and while I give props to Lesnar for pulling off the unexpected submission (and for a nice halfguard pass), I strongly believe that Carwin lost to his himself more than he lost to his opponent. That is, by not having the cardio to fight 2 rounds -- much less 5. 

On the topic of cardio, Akiyama really needs to pick his up as well. I can't believe he was calling out Wanderlei with such a shallow gas tank. Furthermore, what kind of strategy is it to bang with Leben? That's a losing proposition for anyone. As a professional fighter looking to increase his stock in the US, you would think that Sexyama would make sure that he could go HARD for 15 minutes, rather than gassing out in eight. 

Feel free to move this to the smacktalk section. I just felt that I needed to get this off of my chest, to say it to people who might understand my frustration. I was very disappointed that these athletes, who get paid tons of money just to do the sport they love, put forth such poor performances in the cardio dept.


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## Ocelot (Sep 6, 2008)

In Akiyama's defense I think he might have overtrained for this fight.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

I don't know if this is smacktalk. As I said in a previous thread, Shane threw enough bombs to knock out ten guys. 

Anyone would be gassed throwing bombs like that the entire round. 







That is all.


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## fenderman80 (Sep 12, 2006)

Carwin needs to train full time. He cant be an engineer and a world class MMA fighter at the same time. Even though he was gassed in the 2nd, rnd he still should have been able to maneuver out of that position, but he looked lost. He panicked and let this fight get away from him.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

fenderman80 said:


> Carwin needs to train full time. He cant be an engineer and a world class MMA fighter at the same time. Even though he was gassed in the 2nd, rnd he still should have been able to maneuver out of that position, but he looked lost. He panicked and let this fight get away from him.


It has worked well, plus he is 35 he has to do something after MMA.


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## Mx2 (May 4, 2010)

fenderman80 said:


> Carwin needs to train full time. He cant be an engineer and a *champion* MMA fighter at the same time. Even though he was gassed in the 2nd, rnd he still should have been able to maneuver out of that position, but he looked lost. He panicked and let this fight get away from him.


Fixed that for you


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

As for Carwin, I saw that Brock was defending himself intelligently and was yelling at my tele for the ref to not stop the fight, Brock winning by sub however was most unexpected, I would have put alot of money on Carwin winning by KO/TKO, but I really think I underestimated Brock. Him gassing I think just fell directly into Brocks gameplan and against his.

Akiyama vs Leben I kinda suspected Akiyama would lose as soon as he started trading with Leben, I new Lebens TDD was good but Akiyama took him down well, the sub however was awesome, text book triangle but great to watch.

Overall great card with a good few shocks, I love watching Leben fight, dude has the heart of a true warrior and Lesnar proved to me he is absolutely legit, was a great night for MMA in my opinion.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

I think Carwin just got too emontionally attached to this fight, he saw the light at the end of the tunnel and went crazy. If he picked his shots instead of throing bombs non stop, which Lesnar blocked a majority of, we might have seen a different outcome. 

Carwin was also hyperventilating after the fight, another reason why I say he was too emontionally attached to this fight. And to the person who says Carwin should quit his day job, he doesnt get paid enough at the moment to do it, hopefully he gets a pay raise on his next contract that allows him to do this full time and go back to engineering after he retires from MMA.

to put it into perspective. Carwin only made 40k+sponsor money today. Lesnar probably made 400k+200k win+sponsors + PPV money, He will most likely come out with around 4-6 million depending on the PPV sales.

for UFC 100, Lesnar made around 5.5 million, that is because the event sold 1.5 million?(forgot exact number).


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

akiyama hadn't fought in a year an didn't he drop leban in the third? he was winning as well so i don't think you can criticize him.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

Aki vs. Leben had to have been the strangest matchup of all time. Leben fought a week ago, Aki a year ago.


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## kidCain (Jul 4, 2010)

My biggest problem with Sexyama was that he got caught 5 or 6 times in different submissions while in Chris Lebans guard, and yet wasn't smart enough to avoid getting submitted by yet another with 20 seconds to go in a fight he was winning. How the hell does that happen?


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## amoosenamedhank (Sep 2, 2009)

You guys are ridiculous, Carwin didn't make all of these excises why are you? Just except it already


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## Indestructibl3 (Apr 2, 2009)

Agreed man, the thing I'm kinda dissappointed about is that I remember Trevor Wittman or another of Carwin's trainers saying he can go 5 hard rounds like its nothing. Uhh? That was 1 hard round.

But with Akiyama, I agree he should've come in with a greater gas tank, but damn I tip my hat to Leben - what a beast. He has dramatically improved his entire game, VERY impressed with him.


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## kay_o_ken (Jan 26, 2009)

i completely agree, akiyama had/has the skill to beat leben imo but the way he fought he lost it for himself, and carwin def coulda fought a wiser fight

both were very entertaining though so no complaints from me


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## blang (Jun 21, 2009)

i hate chris leben but i have to admit that was a great fight. if you would have stopped the fight in the middle of the second round i don't think either of the fighter would have known their own names. i have to give it to leben he alway has great fights. and come on akiyama is a jap fighter and no jap fighters have done good in the usa.


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## Kin (May 22, 2007)

amoosenamedhank said:


> You guys are ridiculous, Carwin didn't make all of these excises why are you? Just except it already


Of course Carwin didn't admit that it was because he's gassed. As a fighter it's FAR more embarassing to say "I gassed in the first round hurr hurr" than to be like "he was tough/skilled/whatever and he kicked my ass." Why? Because the former implies that YOU didn't do enough in training, where as the latter implies that you gave it your all, but the obstacle was too great to surmount. 

I greatly disagree with the assertion by fenderman that Carwin was lost on the ground. Or at least, I disagree with it being a technical issue so much as a gas issue. When you're exhausted you make mistakes, such as just sitting there in half guard, not fighting for position. At the beginning of the round, before the fight even hit the mat, Carwin was hanging his hands and moving comparitively sluggishly. The spring in his step was gone; he left that somewhere in round one.

And as for whether or not the fight should have been stopped, I completely agree with the ref's decision. The fact that Brock was able to come back and win is indicative of the fact that it was a good call. 

guy incognito, Akiyama didn't drop Leben at all. He took him down numerous times, including several instances where he caught a kick and bowled Leben over with a punch, but it's not like he rocked him or anything. That aside, he was looking noticably more sluggish as the fight went on. By the third, he had nothing left. As much as I was pulling for Sexyama, his performance certainly ISN'T above criticism -- nor is his gas tank. He didn't get caught by a flash sub; he wilted and could no longer defend against Leben's subs.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Kin said:


> Now I'm usually not one to criticism the pros, because I mean, they're the pros. They do this for a living and they have much more experience and knowledge than I do, and they deserve respect proportionate to those facts. But with that respect, there are standards and expectations that ought to be upheld.
> 
> First and foremost, I was disappointed by how Shane Carwin gassed himself out in the first round. He was looking great, but he failed to pace himself, and possibly didn't even come in with enough cardio. He very well could have finished Lesnar had he picked his shots and kept them coming, but he allowed Lesnar to come back even though victory was within his grasp. Carwin was barely there in the second, and while I give props to Lesnar for pulling off the unexpected submission (and for a nice halfguard pass), I strongly believe that Carwin lost to his himself more than he lost to his opponent. That is, by not having the cardio to fight 2 rounds -- much less 5.
> 
> ...


 
I 100% approve this post....:thumb02: + rep


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## NGen2010 (Jun 3, 2008)

Kin said:


> Now I'm usually not one to criticism the pros, because I mean, they're the pros. They do this for a living and they have much more experience and knowledge than I do, and they deserve respect proportionate to those facts. But with that respect, there are standards and expectations that ought to be upheld.
> 
> First and foremost, I was disappointed by how Shane Carwin gassed himself out in the first round. He was looking great, but he failed to pace himself, and possibly didn't even come in with enough cardio. He very well could have finished Lesnar had he picked his shots and kept them coming, but he allowed Lesnar to come back even though victory was within his grasp. Carwin was barely there in the second, and while I give props to Lesnar for pulling off the unexpected submission (and for a nice halfguard pass), I strongly believe that Carwin lost to his himself more than he lost to his opponent. That is, by not having the cardio to fight 2 rounds -- much less 5.
> 
> ...



shut up - you're a clown. "Lack of professionalism..." are you kidding me.



coldcall420 said:


> I 100% approve this post....:thumb02: + rep


you too then.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Quite frankly, I'm not sure how Carwin, as an experienced collegiate wrestler, wasn't at least 95% sure a TD was coming when Brock moved to the T-Rex posture (classic wrestling stance with shoulders tucked in and elbows in front, like a t-rex), but I'm glad he missed that window. When Carwin did sprawl, he looked like an immovable bridge. 

I was impressed by Brock's almost text book escape and that surprising ending. 

Though my boy, Brock did win, as a hugger, I can admit that Carwin did plenty to defeat himself, but to his credit, he is a super heavy weight and he hasn't ever experienced the need to pace before, so I'm not certain I'd say throwing all the hay-makers you have to offer in a position where you traditionally would do that, being on top of a rocked opponent and in a traditional circumstance where the fight is seconds away from ending, as a lack of athletic professionalism or class. Carwin's never met any opponent who could eat his punches for an entire round and that's not something forseable, given his fight record & history.

War Brock.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

Here is my theory on what happened to Shane in this fight. Its obvious he gassed hard after the first round, but i think there are probably 3 contributory factors to why this happened, to varying degrees:

1 - He flat out gassed. He either didnt expect to have to go out of the 1st round or he purely did not train hard enough. Coming from the Greg Jackson camp i find it hard to believe he wasnt trained 100%, but he clearly wasnt ready for more than 2 rounds at most

2 - He became emotionally attached to the fight. All that nervous energy isnt good for you, and it showed in Carwins inability to pick his punches when he had Brock in difficulty. A bit more patience, and precision, and the fight very well could have been over. 

3 - He became completely disheartened when he didnt finish Brock in the 1st half of the 1st round. I think this is the main contributory factor. He has never seen someone recover from one of his bombs before, and when Brock did so, and actually ended the round in a good position, it was more than Shane could take. He knew he didnt have the energy to repeat what he had just done, and everything about his body language at the beginning of the 2nd screamed that he was done. 


Fighters gas all the time, but at UFC level it is rarely just because their training was insufficient.


War Brock :thumb02:


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Dream-On-101 said:


> Here is my theory on what happened to Shane in this fight. Its obvious he gassed hard after the first round, but i think there are probably 3 contributory factors to why this happened, to varying degrees:
> 
> 1 - He flat out gassed. He either didnt expect to have to go out of the 1st round or he purely did not train hard enough. Coming from the Greg Jackson camp i find it hard to believe he wasnt trained 100%, but he clearly wasnt ready for more than 2 rounds at most
> 
> ...


Very good points as I noticed this as well. I wagered on Carwin and noticed he was nervous during the intro in the ring and Brock was calm as he's been there before surprisingly with only a limited number of fights + WWE show experience.

He was trying to finish the way Rampage did with Rashad except Carwin was landing quite a few, but completely blew his load. Second round he was not only tired, but def. disheartened. 

I mean here's a guy who gets pummeled for the entire first round and ends up being the fresher of the two in the second round...oh man! Lots of awesome fights though! Submission of the night should have went to Lytle.


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

Dream-On-101 said:


> Here is my theory on what happened to Shane in this fight. Its obvious he gassed hard after the first round, but i think there are probably 3 contributory factors to why this happened, to varying degrees:
> 
> 1 - He flat out gassed. He either didnt expect to have to go out of the 1st round or he purely did not train hard enough. Coming from the Greg Jackson camp i find it hard to believe he wasnt trained 100%, but he clearly wasnt ready for more than 2 rounds at most
> 
> ...


Pretty much completely agree. The entire night Carwin looked nervous whenever they showed him. He just got too wound up.


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## Avery (Dec 15, 2009)

well after watching that fight i can see one thing happening. i think Carwin will quit being an engineer for a pre-determined time after analyzing his fight..and he will start working on his ground game more. He is a huge threat to Brock. he throws ******* rockets that brock's chin cant handle ... if his cardio and ground game were up a bit more .. shane would be the champion and will be the champion.


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## Walter (Jun 22, 2009)

Avery said:


> well after watching that fight i can see one thing happening. i think Carwin will quit being an engineer for a pre-determined time after analyzing his fight..and he will start working on his ground game more. He is a huge threat to Brock. he throws ******* rockets that brock's chin cant handle ... if his cardio and ground game were up a bit more .. shane would be the champion and will be the champion.


If he was younger I would agree with you. But at 35 how many years do you think he still has to improve ? Especially with the many good fighters the division has, it may be 2 years until his next shot. Plus, he may have been exposed as a guy that can't do much if you weather the early storm.

I'd love it if he quit his engineering job and devoted full time to mma, but he probably won't win in 5 years as a fighter what he will in 20 years as an engineer.


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## Gyser (Oct 13, 2009)

Anyone else notice that Shane motioned to Brock at one point to stand back up? with just under 2 mins left in the round. Brock stayed down, knowing he could defend the shots and help Shane along in gassing, very smart defensive round from Brock after he recovered from the major shots that dropped him. Shane just got too excited.


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## War (Feb 28, 2007)

Avery said:


> well after watching that fight i can see one thing happening. i think Carwin will quit being an engineer for a pre-determined time after analyzing his fight..and he will start working on his ground game more. He is a huge threat to Brock. he throws ******* rockets that brock's chin cant handle ... if his cardio and ground game were up a bit more .. shane would be the champion and will be the champion.


Actually I think everyone saw last night that Brock CAN handle hard shots. How many of them was he supposed to survive before people quit saying that he can't handle what Carwin was throwing? Did Carwin knock him down? Yes. Did he survive, defend himself intelligently and endure the storm? Yes. So saying that Carwin throws bombs that Brock can't handle simply isn't true.

Don't get me wrong I'm actually a fan of both guys. I simply pull more for Brock. The honest truth is though that Brock answered every question you could possibly have in that fight and yet there are still people making statements like this. It's absurd to me. 

I think Dream-On-101 gave the best answer as to what happened. Gassing was an issue but it reminded me of others matches where guys just simply loose their heart. 



> 3 - He became completely disheartened when he didnt finish Brock in the 1st half of the 1st round. I think this is the main contributory factor. He has never seen someone recover from one of his bombs before, and when Brock did so, and actually ended the round in a good position, it was more than Shane could take. He knew he didnt have the energy to repeat what he had just done, and everything about his body language at the beginning of the 2nd screamed that he was done.


QFT ^^


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

it was 50/50. Shane quit trying to take the fight, and Brock listened to his corner, and had plenty of gas to finish it himself. 

Awesome fight, best PPV ever. Akiyama had a very entertaining fight, AGAIN, but his cardio is not to par for the UFC yet.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

This is definitely not smacktalk, at the most, a little ill-tempered! 

For me Carwin dominated one with his usual awesome powerfulness. That being said, Lesnar was intelligently defending himself. Every time he seemed to be about to curl up and quit, he'd burst and shove Carwin back with his legs. All the props in the world to Lesnar (my least favorite fighter) for being rediculously tough! Carwin definitely punched himself out. But he's never fought more than one round in his entire career, I think he'll learn from this mistake and come back a better more efficient fighter. 

On Leban and Akiyama, they both were going at it like animals. I have never seen anyone take Leban's hits like that and keep coming, and I haven't seen anyone stagger Leban since Silva did it in his debut!(well Silva punched him twice and he was out, but that's neither here nor there)...Moral=Akiyama with better cardio and, paradoxically for a grappler, better submission defense, and he could have easily taken that one.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

Cardio is all well and good but when you're slugging it out with Chris Leben and he lands countless bombs on your head, it's going to take it out of you. Akiyama fought a hard fight for the best part of 15 minutes. Yes he was gassed but so was Leben because they both fought so hard and took a lot of big shots. I think you're being a bit too critical there, wars like that always end in exhausted fighters.

Carwin on the other hand is a different story. He lasted one round and didn't take a punch. He well and truly gassed himself out and for someone in a title fight that is pretty weak.


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## Kado (Apr 18, 2010)

Carwin thought he would be finishing this quick like all his other fights, and when the chance came that he thought he could he went for it and in the process showed his lack of cardio.

Akiyama might have been over prepared. Not having fought in a year he may have peaked long before this fight. I think more then it being un-professional its just a case of fighters realizing there is much more then what they bring to the table, and I think both will bounce back and will bring something new to the table.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Akiyama went in with possibly the worst gameplan against Leben - fight like Chris Leben.

By the 2nd round they were both in dizzy haze, showing rock hard chins. Mustering something deep within to throw another strike as it would easily land. Akiyama had the takedown edge but was too tired to do anything.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

MrObjective said:


> Akiyama went in with possibly the worst gameplan against Leben - fight like Chris Leben.


He didn't really have time to properly put in a gameplan. It seemed like he was just going with the flow getting the takedowns when they were available.


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## putmeonhold (Jul 10, 2006)

Kin said:


> there are standards and expectations that ought to be upheld.


You failed to mention even one standard that should be upheld, though I gather from general focus of your comments that it must be a high level of cardio "that ought to be upheld."



Kin said:


> First and foremost, I was disappointed by how Shane Carwin gassed himself out in the first round. He was looking great, but he failed to pace himself, and possibly didn't even come in with enough cardio.


Be fair here --> you are in no position to make such an accusation. I am eagerly awaiting a follow up post from you in which you clearly state how his fight preparation fell short of your expectations and, which cardio exercises; sparring partners; discipline study; diet; and rest patterns he should have employed that would've led to a result that lived up to your expectations. Until you write that post I will simply assume you know as much about Carwin's fight prep as the next fan does, which is absolutely nothing.



Kin said:


> He very well could have finished Lesnar had he picked his shots and kept them coming, but he allowed Lesnar to come back even though victory was within his grasp.


Wow, I didn't realize winning was that easy. I think you should be Carwin's corner man next time he fights the champ - nay, scratch that - YOU should fight the champ. Clearly you know exactly what to do to win. You can take this to the bank my friend. If and when you fight Brock I will put my money on you.

Is a glass half full or half empty? Your statement is completely subjective - did Carwin "allow Lesnar to come back" or did Lesnar earn that comeback on his own? I submit that anyone who is as negative as you are in his/her respective critique of this fight would see it just as you did.



Kin said:


> Carwin was barely there in the second, and while I give props to Lesnar for pulling off the unexpected submission (and for a nice halfguard pass), I strongly believe that Carwin lost to his himself more than he lost to his opponent. That is, by not having the cardio to fight 2 rounds -- much less 5.


I can only assume fighting, like anything else in life, is a long journey of growth and learning. How many times in his career has Carwin fought longer than 5 minutes? Like any discipline, you can practice all you want to achieve a certain result, success comes with experience.

It is also worth mentioning that no matter how hard a heavyweight fighter tries to increase his cardio, he is going to be at risk of gassing out. Those big muscles need oxygen and a lot of it. Lungs do not grow in proportion to muscle and there is an upper limit to the volume of air they can take in no matter how big the body gets. It's just anatomy.



Kin said:


> On the topic of cardio, Akiyama really needs to pick his up as well. I can't believe he was calling out Wanderlei with such a shallow gas tank. Furthermore, what kind of strategy is it to bang with Leben? That's a losing proposition for anyone. As a professional fighter looking to increase his stock in the US, you would think that Sexyama would make sure that he could go HARD for 15 minutes, rather than gassing out in eight.


You seem really upset, would you like a hug? It's a sport dude - that's all. You are really venomous and unfair to these fighters. Your comments go beyond criticism and enter a realm of prudishness which might be acceptable from one of Sexyama's peers, but certainly not from an armchair athlete. I suggest simply critiquing from a technical standpoint and refrain from from saying things like: "As a professional fighter looking to increase his stock in the US, you would think that Sexyama would make sure that he could go HARD for 15 minutes, rather than gassing out in eight."



Kin said:


> Feel free to move this to the smacktalk section. I just felt that I needed to get this off of my chest, to say it to people who might understand my frustration. I was very disappointed that these athletes, who get paid tons of money just to do the sport they love, put forth such poor performances in the cardio dept.


This section seems like an appropriate home for the post. I just wish people would stop handing out reputation in exchange for reputation just to have reputation. No one should be repping a post like this. Reputation should only be given when it's deserved.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

putmeonhold said:


> You failed to mention even one standard that should be upheld, though I gather from general focus of your comments that it must be a high level of cardio "that ought to be upheld."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jesus man, really agressive and sarcastic. What is wrong with this guy stating his opinion? You don't have to crusify him because you disagree. :confused05:

Seems to me you're the one who needs a hug!:thumb02:


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## Kin (May 22, 2007)

NGen2010 said:


> shut up - you're a clown. "Lack of professionalism..." are you kidding me.


+rep for your well-thought post. If it would allow, I'd give you an extra varrot for wittiness, but such just isn't in the cards.

Why I call professionalism into question over cardio issues is because fighting (and being conditioned to fight) is the job of these athletes. That is what puts money on their table. Furthermore, these guys are competing at the highest echelons of the game. Their stuff should be on point. 

Of course I've seen tons of guys gas, but I was very bothered by it yesterday in particular. Both Carwin and Akiyama had opportunities that few receive and many would kill for and they didn't make the best of thier opportunities. Victory was in each of their grasps, but they let it slip. Neither of their losses could be attributed to a lack of skill or ability, so much as a lack of cardio. And that's what bothers me. With enough work, anyone can condition themselves. But even with all of the effort and work in the world, some will never gain Akiyama's technique nor Carwin's power.

I'd also like to note that I find gassing in the second round unprofessional in general, and not just in this event. This, however, was my first time vocalizing my displeasure. 



VolcomX311 said:


> Though my boy, Brock did win, as a hugger, I can admit that Carwin did plenty to defeat himself, but to his credit, he is a super heavy weight and he hasn't ever experienced the need to pace before, so I'm not certain I'd say throwing all the hay-makers you have to offer in a position where you traditionally would do that, being on top of a rocked opponent and in a traditional circumstance where the fight is seconds away from ending, as a lack of athletic professionalism or class.


As someone who will probably always root against Brock, I'm obviously disappointed in the outcome, but I will give credit where it's due. Brock showed a lot of heart, some good technique, and his willingness to learn. I was very impressed that he used some JiuJitsu to bring out the victory. I saw him setting that up in half guard, but I just couldn't believe that he was really going to attempt an arm triangle until it happened. 

I'd also like to note that I never called Carwin's class into question. He's a very classy guy.

I just think that, as a professional fighter, it's very unprofessional to gas out in the very first round of the biggest fight of your life. Although, Dream-On-101, you've got a very good point about there being more to it than under-training.


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## Kin (May 22, 2007)

putmeonhold said:


> You failed to mention even one standard that should be upheld, though I gather from general focus of your comments that it must be a high level of cardio "that ought to be upheld."


You seemed to discern my meaning well enough.



putmeonhold said:


> Be fair here --> you are in no position to make such an accusation. I am eagerly awaiting a follow up post from you in which you clearly state how his fight preparation fell short of your expectations and, which cardio exercises; sparring partners; discipline study; diet; and rest patterns he should have employed that would've led to a result that lived up to your expectations. Until you write that post I will simply assume you know as much about Carwin's fight prep as the next fan does, which is absolutely nothing.


The proof is in the pudding, not the recipe. If he pulled a Krazy Horse and did nothing but play basketball, yet fought hard for all 5 rounds, then he did his job. On the other hand, if he did all of this crazy-intense cardio and gassed himself in 4 minutes...



putmeonhold said:


> Wow, I didn't realize winning was that easy. I think you should be Carwin's corner man next time he fights the champ - nay, scratch that - YOU should fight the champ. Clearly you know exactly what to do to win. You can take this to the bank my friend. If and when you fight Brock I will put my money on you.


I never said it was easy. What I did say was that victory was within Carwin's grasp. Lesnar had been rocked and curled up into a fetal position and was offering no return-fire to deter Carwin. That's as close to the palm of your hand as it gets. However, Carwin didn't pick his shots and punched himself out against Brock's gorilla forearms.



putmeonhold said:


> Is a glass half full or half empty? Your statement is completely subjective - did Carwin "allow Lesnar to come back" or did Lesnar earn that comeback on his own? I submit that anyone who is as negative as you are in his/her respective critique of this fight would see it just as you did.


However you phrase it, there are two sides to that coin. Lesnar deserves all of the props in the world for coming back, but I honestly believe that Carwin could have done more to finish. Or if not more, at least differently.



putmeonhold said:


> I can only assume fighting, like anything else in life, is a long journey of growth and learning. How many times in his career has Carwin fought longer than 5 minutes? Like any discipline, you can practice all you want to achieve a certain result, success comes with experience.


It most certainly is a journey, especially to even get to the upper echelons of the sport. Carwin's there, and one would expect someone who's in so prestigious and coveted a position to be able to last more than one round before gassing.

Also, while experience is invaluable, practice can go a long way. If experience was the end-all-be-all, then Herring should have beaten Lesnar. 

...Okay, I'm arguing a little disingenuously here. I'll admit, I should cut Carwin a bit of slack because of his unexperience. 



putmeonhold said:


> It is also worth mentioning that no matter how hard a heavyweight fighter tries to increase his cardio, he is going to be at risk of gassing out. Those big muscles need oxygen and a lot of it. Lungs do not grow in proportion to muscle and there is an upper limit to the volume of air they can take in no matter how big the body gets. It's just anatomy.


True enough. It becomes just as much about pacing, then, as it is about capacity. Either way, I would hope that a potential champion in the world's premier MMA org would have that ability. Perhaps in time.




putmeonhold said:


> You seem really upset, would you like a hug?


I was pretty upset yesterday. Probably not as much as you're thinking, but I certainly was. As for the hug, it depends entirely on how soft and cuddly your bossom is.



putmeonhold said:


> It's a sport dude - that's all. You are really venomous and unfair to these fighters. Your comments go beyond criticism and enter a realm of prudishness which might be acceptable from one of Sexyama's peers, but certainly not from an armchair athlete. I suggest simply critiquing from a technical standpoint and refrain from from saying things like: "As a professional fighter looking to increase his stock in the US, you would think that Sexyama would make sure that he could go HARD for 15 minutes, rather than gassing out in eight."


I think that your criticism towards me is fair, in that I am perhaps a bit too critical of these fighters. As an ammy MMA fighter, I look up to these guys. They are at a level that I strive to someday reach. As people who receive much more recognition and pay than a local-level MMA fighter, I expect their performances to be proportionate to their prestige. These guys are not only representatives of the sport, but paragons of it.

Perhaps I took it a little too personally, but when I look around at the local fight scene and ask myself "what separates these guys from the big-league fighters," the answer is always 'technique' and 'conditioning.' There are tons of intangibles in the technique department, but conditioning is much more easily controlled.





putmeonhold said:


> This section seems like an appropriate home for the post. I just wish people would stop handing out reputation in exchange for reputation just to have reputation. No one should be repping a post like this. Reputation should only be given when it's deserved.


I enjoyed your sarcasm and your points, so I will rep your post, despite the fact that we disagree.


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## rean1mator (Nov 20, 2006)

Akiyama was winning the fight but he lost it b/c of his conditioning wiht like 30seconds to go getting caught in a triangle he never should have been caught with.

he also exhibited the same lack of conditioning in his fight with belcher. not sure how he is going to make any sort of impact in the ufc with that lack of conditioning. it's pretty unacceptable imo for a guy his size. I can see someone like carwin gassing b/c of his size and amount of muscles but middleweights should never be gassing. you don't see this with top level fighters in the UFC. 




guy incognito said:


> akiyama hadn't fought in a year an didn't he drop leban in the third? he was winning as well so i don't think you can criticize him.


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## rean1mator (Nov 20, 2006)

.....


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## rean1mator (Nov 20, 2006)

Carwin just got caught up in trying to take Brock in the first round out b/c he knew he had to or his chances of winning were going to diminish greatly in the later rounds.
He gambled and it didn't pay off.

I think he would have had a much better chance of winning if he would have just let Brock up after his knock down. He wouldn't have gassed just picking and choosing his punches from the stand up and you have to admit his stand up was looking amazing with some pretty precise and crisp punches. A couple of more punches like the first one he took Brock down with could have ended it in the first round.

It's just too hard to generate enough power to knock someone out like Brock using GNP and that's not Carwin's game the stand up is.

That fight could have easily gone Carwin's way if he would have just used a safer strategy instead of frantically getting caught up in the moment. 

With that said i'd like to see another carwin/brock fight for sure.







War said:


> Actually I think everyone saw last night that Brock CAN handle hard shots. How many of them was he supposed to survive before people quit saying that he can't handle what Carwin was throwing? Did Carwin knock him down? Yes. Did he survive, defend himself intelligently and endure the storm? Yes. So saying that Carwin throws bombs that Brock can't handle simply isn't true.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I'm actually a fan of both guys. I simply pull more for Brock. The honest truth is though that Brock answered every question you could possibly have in that fight and yet there are still people making statements like this. It's absurd to me.
> 
> ...


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## putmeonhold (Jul 10, 2006)

You still haven't made a case for either Shane Carwin or Sexyama not preparing for the fight when it comes to cardio. Your'e simply using the ends to justify the means *i.e.* Carwin was gassed in the second therefore he couldn't have prepared properly and that is unprofessional.

It's not important for me to agree with your point, but it is very important to me to always understand where someone's viewpoint is coming from. In this case I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion other than hindsight. I get that you are disappointed but perhaps your insight should have ended there.


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## putmeonhold (Jul 10, 2006)

Squirrelfighter said:


> Jesus man, really agressive and sarcastic. What is wrong with this guy stating his opinion? You don't have to crusify him because you disagree. :confused05:
> 
> Seems to me you're the one who needs a hug!:thumb02:


Touche - but I would point out that it wasn't "him" I was crucifying, it was his opinion and statements I went after and I threw a dash of sarcasm in there to drive my point home. Hey, sometimes it is due to feedback that we re-evaluate our positions. I'm just giving my 2 cents. Either he will re-evaluate his musings or my feedback may solidify his opinion even further. Playful Banter never hurt anyone. I am respectful to all regardless of opinion.

P.S. I accept hugs anytime


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I totally agree with the TS here!

This kind of showing is unacceptable at this level. I mean Carwin just fought for the Belt..HELLO?? I know HW's have a harder time with the Cardio issue.. but come on, what is training for?! You can train those situations (of course not the pressure) but at least anything else. And if his weight and muscle mass prevents him from improving his endurance.. then well, you have to lose weight.

Akiyama disappointed me so much that night! I was ducking every punch Leben was throwing at him with him.. 
I don't know if he was overtrained, or if he was to bussy at the World Cup in South Africa. But if you have your dreamfight comming up, then you should be ready physically. If he would have known, that Leben was his opponent way earlier, then I could have understand his Condition at least a little bit.. but so! 
I was sure that he was willing to stand a little with Leben and bang, but he should have tried harder to finish him when he had the opportunity too..
In the Belcher fight he gassed in the third. But I thought this was because of the blow to the groin and the broken orbital. 

Fact is it's not acceptable to gas like that as a UFC Middleweight. Thats TUF material.. 

He should be able to fix that for his next fight and give his next opponent a great beating :thumbsup:

So that the Sexy War Wagon shines again, like he should!


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

NGen2010 said:


> you too then.


 
LOL...Welcome look at your rep....now go away!!!



Anyway, on to business, I know this was posted earlier today but Shane is saying he didn't gas rather his body seized up on him??? I'm not sure what to even say to that, he say he couldn't feel his legs and that this resulted in an easy take down and the his inability to fight off his back due to this seizing up???

http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/78703-shane-carwin-reacts-1st-loss.html

Thoughts??


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## MikeHawk (Sep 11, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> LOL...Welcome look at your rep....now go away!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that was pretty ridiculous of him to say he wasn't gassed but his body seized up. That's basically the definition of gassing.

I lost a bit of respect for Carwin in this one. You can't come into a 5 round fight and only expect to go 1.


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## Can.Opener (Apr 8, 2009)

Back to the topic of professionalism..

Has anyone noticed how many more promos, ads and hype there is in UFC PPV's in place of showing fights? Sure they're showing prelims on Spike now but it detracts from the flow and excitement they used to have.

I really don't need to see 5 minutes of UFC 117 promotion after one or two fights into a PPV I've just paid for. 

Just get on with the damn fights.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> LOL...Welcome look at your rep....now go away!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well what he's describing could have been anything. Sounds remarkably like lactic-acidosis, but I've never heard of such a quick onset in my EMT training, or my MA experience. Could have been capillary constriction due to lack of oxygenation of the blood. Could have been an irrythmia in his heart. Could have been about a thousand things to cause the symptoms he listed. I would bet its more than likely #2, this is in essense what happens when the body doesn't get enough oxygen to the tissues. That would have been a product of gassing. We're taught not to diagnosis as EMTs but this looks remarkably like a result of overexertion, nothing serious, he just got excited!


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## Kin (May 22, 2007)

putmeonhold said:


> You still haven't made a case for either Shane Carwin or Sexyama not preparing for the fight when it comes to cardio. Your'e simply using the ends to justify the means *i.e.* Carwin was gassed in the second therefore he couldn't have prepared properly and that is unprofessional.
> 
> It's not important for me to agree with your point, but it is very important to me to always understand where someone's viewpoint is coming from. In this case I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion other than hindsight. I get that you are disappointed but perhaps your insight should have ended there.


I'm sorry, but uh, why wouldn't the ends justify the means? I'm saying that it's unprofessional to gas in the second round (or late first, in this case). In fact, I'm gonna quote myself here...



me said:


> I was disappointed by how Shane Carwin *gassed himself out in the first round.* He was looking great, but he *failed to pace himself*, and *possibly didn't even come in with enough cardio*. He very well could have finished Lesnar *had he picked his shots and kept them coming*, but he allowed Lesnar to come back even though victory was within his grasp...
> 
> ...Akiyama really needs to pick his up as well. I can't believe he was calling out Wanderlei with such a shallow gas tank. Furthermore, *what kind of strategy is it to bang with Leben?* That's a losing proposition for anyone. As a professional fighter looking to increase his stock in the US, *you would think that Sexyama would make sure that he could go HARD for 15 minutes, rather than gassing out in eight...*
> 
> ...I was very disappointed that these athletes, who get paid tons of money just to do the sport they love, put forth such poor* performances* in the cardio dept.


If we look at my original post, you'll notice I was complaining about what they did IN THE FIGHT. It was "the ends" as you put it that I was criticizing as unprofessional. I speculated that the reason was in the training, which would be a problem if that were the cause. But as I said in my first response to you, even if they did everything wrong in the gym, but had cardio in the fight, they did the job. Conversely, the opposite is true. The end is what matters, and it does in fact justify the means. It's a fighting competition, not a training competition.

It would seem that you are attacking a strawman.


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## LiteGladiator (Jun 22, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> I totally agree with the TS here!
> 
> This kind of showing is unacceptable at this level. I mean Carwin just fought for the Belt..HELLO?? I know HW's have a harder time with the Cardio issue.. but come on, what is training for?! You can train those situations (of course not the pressure) but at least anything else. And if his weight and muscle mass prevents him from improving his endurance.. then well, you have to lose weight.
> 
> ...


I agree with the Akiyama statement. I don't believe that Carwin gassed completely. He said that he legs seized up, that was more than anything, because he wasn't taking huge deep breaths on the ground. It just seemed like he didn't really have control of his body.


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## boatoar (May 14, 2010)

I really don't think it's a case of "not training" cardio well enough for either Akiyama or Carwin. I think it is very hard or near impossible to simulate the adrenaline dump and heart pounding that happens to these guys when the official fight is happening. It becomes second nature to go to your camp and spar with your partners, do your cardio etc etc. But to be in front of 20, 000 screaming fans with a title belt on the line (in Carwin's case) and give it 100% of all you have, knowing you're prepared... and all of a sudden you tense up, or that adrenaline dump catches you off-guard (no matter how many times it's happened before)

Your parasympathetic nervous system kicks in when the fight or flight mechanism in your brain shuts off, and I think these guys get to that point after that initial rush wears off where some of them say they can't even hear the crowd anymore. But that initial rush wear-off also drains a lot of energy, much more than anything they've experienced in training. They fight through it, and that's why 'experience' is given so much weight I believe.

You may not be able to control the feeling you get after the adrenaline dump or how tired you feel, but you can control how much effort you put forth from that point on for each movement you try to make, punch you throw, kick you attempt...etc 
For Carwin, he seized up and his body wasn't responding very well for him, obviously like he said 'it's like nothing he'd ever felt like in his entire life'...i don't think it's because he didn't train hard enough, I think he was ready for a 15 minute brawl, but then did throw caution to the wind a bit trying to go for the KO that he's so accustomed to getting.
This time his body didn't co-operate, next time with even less training I think his cardio would still allow him to fight for 25 minutes with no problem, simply because i don't think he'd seize up. 

I could be wrong of course.

My hat goes out to the hard work that these guys put in day and day out so we can enjoy the fruits of their labour roughly once a month and sometimes more.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

guy incognito said:


> akiyama hadn't fought in a year an didn't he drop leban in the third? he was winning as well so i don't think you can criticize him.


I cant remember Leben getting dropped...he was taking some shots from Akiyama as well as dishing out his own but i dont remember him getting dropped.

It's also debatable on who was winning. I would not have been suprised had it gone either way. I had scored it a round each coming into the 3rd and that was also pretty even.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Akiyama is a bit overated as you probably already know.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

vilify said:


> Akiyama is a bit overated as you probably already know.


Why?? Just because he gassed? 

He can fix that, no Problem!


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

vilify said:


> Akiyama is a bit overated as you probably already know.


the genius of vilify strikes again.


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## putmeonhold (Jul 10, 2006)

Kin said:


> I'm sorry, but uh, why wouldn't the ends justify the means? I'm saying that it's unprofessional to gas in the second round (or late first, in this case). In fact, I'm gonna quote myself here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well kudos to you for admitting you think the ends justify the means - I disagree completely. If we follow this belief to its logical conclusion than I would have to assume that Chuck was unprofessional when he got knocked out by Rich, simply because he got knocked out. Let's not get bogged down in this ends justify the means thing, when you say "even if they did everything wrong in the gym, but had cardio in the fight, they did the job." that is exactly the definition of ends justify the means so I hope your next response does not try to deny you ever made this claim.

Let me be very clear - we both agree that he gassed but you have not submitted any reasoning as to why that was unprofessional - I have been trying to get this from you several times but you've done everything to avoid submitting your reasoning for that - and you're saying I'm attacking a strawman? Please, actually submit your thought process for arriving at the "unprofessional" conclusion. Simpy repeating your original post will not qualify.

I can understand your viewpoint if it is your opinion that it is unprofessional if a fighter doesn't bother training for a fight, then shows up on fight night and gasses. I think we could all agree on that one. I don't think that was the case with Carwin and that's clearly not where your coming from as I gather from your previous rebuttals.

But how is it UNPROFESSIONAL to gas out the way Carwin did? Carwin had Brock in a vulnerable position and he comitted himself 100% to finishing Brock and it didn't work out. How often to we hear the screams of MMAForum members when fighters don't try to finish when they have the opportunity?

Carwin blew his wad, but he didn't blow it holding a submission attempt for too long or anything. He blew it trying to knock Brock out while he was on his back - some punches landed, some didn't, and they were all haymakers - even Brock said he "...have to thank the ref for not stopping it." Since Carwin has knocked everyone else out in the past, I don't think it was a bad idea for him to try knocking out Lesnar.

IMHO that is the farthest thing from being unprofessional and that is more evident when contrasted againsed my example above re: not training.

I further submit to you that Shane Carwin was as professional as one can get when it came to this fight: He never trash talked his opponent; he was willing to do absolutely any promo surrounding the fight; he touched gloves with Brock before the fight started; he was gracious in defeat; his public statement the next day to his fans was even more gracious; and finally according to Shane himself he never trained harder in his career than he did for this fight. Not to mention he dominated Brock more so than any other fighter has thus far.


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## Kin (May 22, 2007)

putmeonhold said:


> Well kudos to you for admitting you think the ends justify the means - I disagree completely. If we follow this belief to its logical conclusion than I would have to assume that Chuck was unprofessional when he got knocked out by Rich, simply because he got knocked out. Let's not get bogged down in this ends justify the means thing, when you say "even if they did everything wrong in the gym, but had cardio in the fight, they did the job." that is exactly the definition of ends justify the means so I hope your next response does not try to deny you ever made this claim.


It won't be hard to hold me to it. In my last response to you I said that very thing twice, and bolded a bunch of text in my original post to emphasize that I believe just that -- that the ends justify the means in combat sports.

Also, getting KO'd and gassing are completely different. Do you REALLY need me to tell you why?



putmeonhold said:


> Let me be very clear - we both agree that he gassed but you have not submitted any reasoning as to why that was unprofessional - I have been trying to get this from you several times but you've done everything to avoid submitting your reasoning for that - and you're saying I'm attacking a strawman? Please, actually submit your thought process for arriving at the "unprofessional" conclusion. Simpy repeating your original post will not qualify.


Oh... I apologize. I didn't see why I would have to explain why gassing well before a fight is coming to an end is unprofessional. I thought that it was pretty self-evident why one would find that to be unprofessional. But fine, I'll play.

A fighter is supposed to fight until his opponent is finished or until the alotted time has run out. I think it's safe to assume that in any job, you're not only supposed to do the task, but do it well. If a fighter gasses, especially early on, he isn't doing his job very well. A professional fighter is a fighter, who does this for a living -- hence, it is his profession. To fail to fight well for at least most of the expected time is not doing the job well, hence unprofessional.

Wait... Actually, I think I did say this before. Or at least, I've said things, which you could have inferred the above meaning from.



Me said:


> Why I call professionalism into question over cardio issues is because fighting (and being conditioned to fight) is the job of these athletes. That is what puts money on their table. Furthermore, these guys are competing at the highest echelons of the game. Their stuff should be on point.
> 
> Neither of their losses could be attributed to a lack of skill or ability, so much as a lack of cardio. And that's what bothers me. With enough work, anyone can condition themselves. But even with all of the effort and work in the world, some will never gain Akiyama's technique nor Carwin's power.


You're not daft. I honestly believe that you could discern my meaning from that, but you just wanted to make me to reitterate it for the sake of... Hmm, I don't know why, actually.



putmeonhold said:


> I can understand your viewpoint if it is your opinion that it is unprofessional if a fighter doesn't bother training for a fight, then shows up on fight night and gasses. I think we could all agree on that one. I don't think that was the case with Carwin and that's clearly not where your coming from as I gather from your previous rebuttals.
> 
> But how is it UNPROFESSIONAL to gas out the way Carwin did? Carwin had Brock in a vulnerable position and he comitted himself 100% to finishing Brock and it didn't work out. How often to we hear the screams of MMAForum members when fighters don't try to finish when they have the opportunity?
> 
> ...


Our disagreement may stem from a difference in what aspect of professionalism I'm addressing. In the last paragraph, you're talking about politeness and manners. That is, of course, a part of a fighter's professionalism, but that's not the part that I was calling into question. I've been talking about the performance aspect this entire time, while you seem to be slightly hung up on manners. 

And I do see your point, to an extent, about the reasons behind Carwin's gassing mitigating the offense. But as far as I'm concerned, if you come in for a 15 minute fight, you must be able to fight hard for 15 minutes unless you get stopped. The same applies for championship fights, except the pressure is doubled, since these two are representing 'the best that the sport can offer' in their weightclass.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm dead serious, Akiyama is way overated. I thought this was well known??

He's an interesting character and a good addition to the world of MMA but his fighting skills are not much to talk about. Wandy would slaughter him in the 1st, belcher beat him imo and now leben submits him.

what more is there to say??


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## Kin (May 22, 2007)

vilify said:


> I'm dead serious, Akiyama is way overated. I thought this was well known??
> 
> He's an interesting character and a good addition to the world of MMA but his fighting skills are not much to talk about. Wandy would slaughter him in the 1st, belcher beat him imo and now leben submits him.
> 
> what more is there to say??


He's got good skills, but his cardio doesn't match.


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

As for Akiyama, I think people underestimate how much getting rocked takes out of your gas tank. Leben KO's just about everybody he gets a clean shot on, and Akiyama was eating some shots. I don't think he proved himself to be overrated at all - He went out there and fought like a warrior.

Do I think Akiayama needs to drop to 170? Oh hell yes. He's tiny at 185, and not just compared to the bigger American guys. Heck, put him against Okami and he'd look tiny. But yeah, I don't think he looked unprofessional. I think he looked like a guy who ate some hard shots from one of the MW divisions hardest hitting brawlers.


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## Admz (Sep 15, 2009)

I completely agree with Carwin and Akiyama gassing so soon, but as much as I hate to say it: I gained a little more respect for Lesnar and Leben, well at least their ability to take a punch.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Killstarz said:


> I cant remember Leben getting dropped...he was taking some shots from Akiyama as well as dishing out his own but i dont remember him getting dropped.
> 
> It's also debatable on who was winning. I would not have been suprised had it gone either way. I had scored it a round each coming into the 3rd and that was also pretty even.


 
He did but was throwing up kicks as soon as he hit the ground....dont remember the round just happened top watch a highlight with a bud right now and they showed Leben going down....:thumbsup:


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