# Sherdog's shitty P4P ranking...



## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

http://sherdog.com/news/rankings/sherdogcoms-pound-for-pound-top-10-15240

I dont even wamt to comment on it.. Where they get this from??


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Xerxes said:


> http://sherdog.com/news/rankings/sherdogcoms-pound-for-pound-top-10-15240
> 
> I dont even wamt to comment on it.. Where they get this from??


Doesnt seem that bad although Faber should of still been in there instead of Rampage or Alvarez.


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## TERMINATOR (Jul 6, 2008)

It doesnt look all that bad imo


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

It looks fine to me. Which is rare usually P4P rankings are really dumb.

Faber doesn't deserve to be on there. Who has he really beaten to deserve it?


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

Dunno. looks pretty solid to me. I would add Florian there instead of Rampage though and drop Nog couple ranks lower. Other than that nothing to complain.


southpaw447 said:


> It looks fine to me. Which is rare usually P4P rankings are really dumb.
> 
> Faber doesn't deserve to be on there. Who has he really beaten to deserve it?


Agreed. Featherweight is kinda thin division. While Pulver win was impressive there isn't alot of fights he can test himself with. If he does like Silva and fights some light weights (Sherk, Stevenson, Huerta, Griffin...) he can set his foot higher on p4p rankings. He is still the best featherweight in my (and many other's) opinion, but he really hasn't really proven his p4p awesomeness enough to roll with the guys up there, not to mention that recent loss knocked him down from the rank 7-10 where he was before.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Looks like they just updated, Faber no longer on the list, I think its a great P4P actually.


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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

It looks pretty good, i would swap Big Nog and Forrest, and i might have put Florian somewhere in the lower end


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

I don't think Rampage deserves to be on there. He has too many loses to too many guys that are still fighting.


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

When Faber was on the P4P list, IMO, he was barely hanging on by a thread since like you said the division is not very talent deep.


If he really wants to get back on there, I think he should move up to 155 and fight in the UFC



Davisty69 said:


> I don't think Rampage deserves to be on there. He has too many loses to too many guys that are still fighting.


if you take into perspective his 2nd and 3rd UFC fight (Liddell and Henderson) those wins were pretty much career defining not to mention both those fights were for a title and one was for title unification, and Rampage was able to do it in under a year. That's p4p worthy, IMO. Knocking off two of the top LHW's in less than 6 months.

I think if he loses to Wanderlei, which I'm pretty sure he will, he needs the boot


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## pliff (Oct 5, 2006)

As dominant as Anderson Silva is, I dont think you can give him the #1 spot. The number 1 should remain Fedor, as he has faced some tough competition and has never really lost. My list goes something like this

1. FEDOR
2. SILVA
3. GSP
4. BJ PENN
5
6
7
8
9
10


5-10 are still up for grabs as I cant definatly say that one fighter deserves the spot more than another. Its really tough to choose as the weight divisions arent as stacked the same way, champions havent all faced the same level of competition and different organizations dont have the same level of fighters..

Edit: Fedor is still my #1 pick because many people doubted him during his inactivity period (Lindland and Hong man Choi) but he proved why he is so great against Big Tim who many doubt but is definatly a great fighter. I dont know why people hate Timmy that much btw. Tim vs Arlovski 3 sucked but you cant base your judgement on 1 fight alone. If we did.... many many fighters would be considered boring.


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## mmawrestler (May 18, 2008)

wanna see some dumb rankings, on the score their futer mma pfp rankings had Gsp at #1, and Brock F'ing Lesnar at #2 if he beat randy, and randy wasnt even on the top 10, Brock anywere neer the top 1 is just rediculous i dont think they understand pfp cause if brock was normal size he would be owned by everyone


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

mmawrestler said:


> wanna see some dumb rankings, on the score their futer mma pfp rankings had Gsp at #1, and Brock F'ing Lesnar at #2 if he beat randy, and randy wasnt even on the top 10, Brock anywere neer the top 1 is just rediculous i dont think they understand pfp cause if brock was normal size he would be owned by everyone


Seriously... That is just ridiculous. I do everything in my power to avoid morons like that.


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## CornbreadBB (Jul 31, 2008)

For sherdog (which I absolutely hate) this seems to be a pretty legit P4P ranking.


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## pliff (Oct 5, 2006)

mmawrestler said:


> wanna see some dumb rankings, on the score their futer mma pfp rankings had Gsp at #1, and Brock F'ing Lesnar at #2 if he beat randy, and randy wasnt even on the top 10, Brock anywere neer the top 1 is just rediculous *i dont think they understand pfp cause if brock was normal size he would be owned by everyone*



Im not a Brock fan by any means but I dont think *YOU* understand what P4P means because it means that brock would have the skills he has if he weighed 155 - 170 - 185 or 205+ he would dominate as much as he does in his weight class. 

Im not saying Brock is 'the nest big thing' (no pun intended) but P4P means the way the man would dominate a division if he was in that weight class


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

I might rearange some names but this a good list, I dont agree with fedor being on there but that is my own personal beliefs and will not go into it. I think bj should be above gsp but again my person beliefs. but all in all a good list. some people I might trade for another and what not but all in all i see why they put each fighter there


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## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

M_D said:


> I might rearange some names but this a good list, I dont agree with fedor being on there but that is my own personal beliefs and will not go into it. I think bj should be above gsp but again my person beliefs. but all in all a good list. some people I might trade for another and what not but all in all i see why they put each fighter there


It doesn't really come down to your personal beliefs, its comes down to wins over credible opponents, and Fedor has a lot of those.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

I'll only rank my top 5 P4P, seeing as anything more than that is excessive IMO.

1. Georges St. Pierre
2. Fedor Emelianenko
3. Anderson Silva
4. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
5. BJ Penn


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> I'll only rank my top 5 P4P, seeing as anything more than that is excessive IMO.
> 
> 1. Georges St. Pierre
> 2. Fedor Emelianenko
> ...


flip Fedor and GSP and I am in agreement.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

69nites said:


> flip Fedor and GSP and I am in agreement.


The main reason I have GSP over Fedor is because he has more wins over top 10 guys. I think if we're comparing skillsets Fedor is the better fighter.


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## Scarecrow (Mar 20, 2008)

Xerxes said:


> http://sherdog.com/news/rankings/sherdogcoms-pound-for-pound-top-10-15240
> 
> I dont even wamt to comment on it.. Where they get this from??


Easy fix...don't visit crapdog.


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

Terror Kovenant said:


> It doesn't really come down to your personal beliefs, its comes down to wins over credible opponents, and Fedor has a lot of those.


I know what it comes down to. I know more about mma then you will ever comprehend. I chose to say in my personal beliefs because I wanted to post and not have little idiots like you come in here and say stupid shit to get me to go into why I dont think fedor should be a top 10 when I have said it a million times before in different threads and different forums ect. it is a beat up discussion that no side ever will change on no matter how long you argue about it. but for fun go through their top ten list that they have up there and write down all the people these guys have beat that are top tier fighters in the past 5 to ten years and you will see one man that is seriously lacking. 

I can continue this discussion off this thread with you if you would like and I will show you so much information that supports my views it would make your head spin and explode. 

Next time you want to call out a member on these forums learn who that member is before you try to call them out on their post. if you continue to go against me in here on this thread or any other I swear I will make you the embarrassment of mmaforum so much so that not even sherdog would want you posting on their forums.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

M_D said:


> I know what it comes down to. I know more about mma then you will ever comprehend. I chose to say in my personal beliefs because I wanted to post and not have little idiots like you come in here and say stupid shit to get me to go into why I dont think fedor should be a top 10 when I have said it a million times before in different threads and different forums ect. it is a beat up discussion that no side ever will change on no matter how long you argue about it. but for fun go through their top ten list that they have up there and write down all the people these guys have beat that are top tier fighters in the past 5 to ten years and you will see one man that is seriously lacking.
> 
> I can continue this discussion off this thread with you if you would like and I will show you so much information that supports my views it would make your head spin and explode.
> 
> Next time you want to call out a member on these forums learn who that member is before you try to call them out on their post. if you continue to go against me in here on this thread or any other I swear I will make you the embarrassment of mmaforum so much so that not even sherdog would want you posting on their forums.


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## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

M_D said:


> I know what it comes down to. I know more about mma then you will ever comprehend.


Takes a big and intelligent man to make such assumptive statements when knowing nothing about the target. Massive failure on your part, kid. 



> I chose to say in my personal beliefs because I wanted to post and not have little idiots like you come in here and say stupid shit to get me to go into why I dont think fedor should be a top 10 when I have said it a million times before in different threads and different forums ect.


Little idiots like me? Amazing how angry you get from a simple post of mine where I was simply continuing a discussion. Seriously dude, you have some growing up to do. Secondly, I didn't come here to look up your millions of posts on this topic, so I don't really care how many times you've said it. Hell, I didn't even ask why, just stated that your personal beliefs have nothing to do with it. Which they don't, deal with it.




> I can continue this discussion off this thread with you if you would like and I will show you so much information that supports my views it would make your head spin and explode.


No.



> Next time you want to call out a member on these forums learn who that member is before you try to call them out on their post. if you continue to go against me in here on this thread or any other I swear I will make you the embarrassment of mmaforum so much so that not even sherdog would want you posting on their forums.


Hah, seriously? Internet threats about embarrassing me? HAH. Your internet tough guy act is stale, weak, and pathetic. I wasn't even calling you out, so stop the paranoia and calm down. But I doubt that is going to happen due to your blatant lack of maturity and the fact that you can't even have a simple discussion. I fear not your e-badass threats, boy. And I care so very little about who you are, or anything pertaining to you as a poster. Grow up, ditch the tough guy attitude, and learn how to have a discussion without verbally assaulting someone without provocation.


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

LOL angry, far from it, 

it is a dead discussion and debate that i was choosing to not want to conitue on this subject so I made my first post the way i did which everyone else on here understood. when talking about mma and who knows more i looked up your post before i made that post in which made me pretty comfortable making that statement from what i read. 

calling me a kid is also funny for I am one of thee older people on here. 

if you could of used some comprehension skills and basic understanding of writing you would have understood my first post and understood why i wrote it the way I did but no you decided to go off and try and educate me. im to tired at the present time to make this post all good and rip apart your post so eh...


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

M_D said:


> LOL angry, far from it





M_D said:


> Next time you want to call out a member on these forums learn who that member is before you try to call them out on their post. if you continue to go against me in here on this thread or any other I swear I will make you the embarrassment of mmaforum so much so that not even sherdog would want you posting on their forums.













I'd certainly hate to catch you in one of your real angry moments then. :laugh:


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

I missed you Fedor>all

and back on topic of the ranking scale. My only really big problem with it is that Emerson and Angely Lane is not number 1 and 2, or are they just above all list because people already know they are number 1 and 2


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> I'll only rank my top 5 P4P, seeing as anything more than that is excessive IMO.
> 
> 1. Georges St. Pierre
> 2. Fedor Emelianenko
> ...


I would put BJ in front of Nog but besides that I agree also Miguel Torres is around 6 IMO and could pass Nogueira soon.


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## CornbreadBB (Jul 31, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


>


This is ******* hilarious!!

As for M_D you're vicious dude.


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## cezwan (Dec 7, 2007)

pliff said:


> As dominant as Anderson Silva is, I dont think you can give him the #1 spot. *The number 1 should remain Fedor*, as he has faced some tough competition and has never really lost. My list goes something like this
> 
> *1. FEDOR
> 2. SILVA
> ...


i agree.. i dont think Silva deserves the number 1 position, and realistically, Fedor hasnt really done anything wrong to deserve being any lower than 1. With the rest of the list however, i dont really have a problem with..


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## NCK (Apr 10, 2007)

I can't see how Forrest is in there. He has beaten two legit fighters but also lost to Jardine. Alves hasn't proven himself and I've no idea why Alverez is in there either.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> I would put BJ in front of Nog but besides that I agree also Miguel Torres is around 6 IMO and could pass Nogueira soon.


I'm only putting Nog ahead of BJ because he has beaten more top 10 guys throughout his career than Penn. Torres is a beast, but I think that a lot of his dominance has to do with the level of competition he has faced. I mean, Maeda was the first legit test for him and he didn't look as dominant as he usually does. You know?


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

That P4P isn't so bad at all, Xerxes. Is your problem with it simply the fact that Fedor isn't No. 1?


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

NCK said:


> I can't see how Forrest is in there. He has beaten two legit fighters but also lost to Jardine. Alves hasn't proven himself and I've no idea why Alverez is in there either.


Those 2 "legit fighters" happened to be #1 LHWs in the world each at the time he beat them. And yes he does have some losses, but LHW is so stacked division filled with awesome strikers, wrestlers and bjj guys that being succesful in LHW requires you to be extremely versatile and indeed p4p ranking material.

None of the top guys in that division has perfect record (Not counting Machida until he beats a top 5 guy) and there is no free title shots given away. 

Whoever the man with the belt of that division is can easily be given a spot in top 10 p4p list for these reasons alone, if/when Forrest clocks more wins he can be added even higher on that list.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

Alves should never be on a PfP list IMO due to the fact that his main advantage at 170 is his size. He could be the top WW in the world soon but I still wouldn't rank him PfP wise.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> I'm only putting Nog ahead of BJ because he has beaten more top 10 guys throughout his career than Penn. Torres is a beast, but I think that a lot of his dominance has to do with the level of competition he has faced. I mean, Maeda was the first legit test for him and he didn't look as dominant as he usually does. You know?


I agree but I just think BJ who has had an impact at 2 weight classes and never lost a fight that wasn't close. I mean wins over Hughes in his prime, Gomi, Sherk have me thinking he especially with how dominant he was in all those fights but I can understand putting Nogueira ahead of him since he has wins over Sergei, Barnett, Werdum, Cro Cop and others.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

I don't see what is so bad about it. The top 4 look fine to me. I am not sure about Jackson, Alverez, or Griffin being on the list, but I am not sure who I would put instead.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

NCK said:


> I can't see how Forrest is in there. He has beaten two legit fighters but also lost to Jardine. Alves hasn't proven himself and I've no idea why Alverez is in there either.


Well when Forrest beat Shogun, he was ranked #1, and then when he beat Rampage he was ranked #1.

Alves is unproven? He has beat 3 top 10 guys in a row.

Alvarez is probably on there because he recently beat 2 of the top 10 LWs in the world. 

I pretty much have no problems with the Sherdog list for once.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Well when Forrest beat Shogun, he was ranked #1, and then when he beat Rampage he was ranked #1.
> 
> Alves is unproven? He has beat 3 top 10 guys in a row.
> 
> ...


Alves is proven but the fact that his biggest strength is his sheer size negates any claim to him being on a PfP list IMO.

Alves is a top fighter, like I said before there is a good chance he'll be the top WW in the world soon but the fact that he walks into the ring nearly 30lbs more than he weighs in at means IMO you can't even consider him a top PfP fighter.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Bazza89 said:


> Alves is proven but the fact that his biggest strength is his sheer size negates any claim to him being on a PfP list IMO.
> 
> Alves is a top fighter, like I said before there is a good chance he'll be the top WW in the world soon but the fact that he walks into the ring nearly 30lbs more than he weighs in at means IMO you can't even consider him a top PfP fighter.


I see your point. It depends on how you figure p4p best. If you look at how accomplished someone is in their division as a factor, I think you have to include him. If you do it based solely on their ability, you might not. I think we just differ on how we figure the rankings. Although if you do it the latter than I think it's very hard to put fedor, or any HW at the top. They obviously would be too slow if they shrunk to fight with the likes of a BJ Penn.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Bazza89 said:


> Alves is proven but the fact that his biggest strength is his sheer size negates any claim to him being on a PfP list IMO.
> 
> Alves is a top fighter, like I said before there is a good chance he'll be the top WW in the world soon but the fact that he walks into the ring nearly 30lbs more than he weighs in at means IMO you can't even consider him a top PfP fighter.


I cant agree with that at all, he makes the 170 weight limit and what he gains after that is irrelevant, because all fighters can do the same if they want. 
Plus do you think his opponents come for the fight at 170? at the very most he has a 10 pound advantage, which is not enough to have a clear size advantage IMO unless your a wrestler and Thiago isnt one.

He has beat 3 top 10 WW's in his last 3 fights and thats all you should take into account, Thiago is easily a top 10 p4p fighter.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Doesnt Pound for Pound basically mean being the best that your *physical attributes* allow you to be?

Thats how i've always understood it, and theres a few guys on that list that dont meet that specification


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

You can still have HW's at the top because IMO it should be based on the assumption that their speed will translate to whatever size they are shrunk. 

DJ Syko the fact that he makes 170lbs has nothing to do with the fact that his size is his biggest asset. (In his last 3 fights hasn't he weighed in at 174 and 171twice BTW?)

PfP was invented to decide who was the top fighter regardless of weight so Alves' abilty to cut weight and pack it back on wouldn't factor therefore his biggest advantage is gone. 

And since when does weight only matter if you're a wrestler? That's a ridiculous statement TBH.

I think Alves is a top fighter but as long as he holds such a significant weight advantage going into fights then he can't be considered on a PfP ranking. Rather than justfying his ranking with the fact that he's beaten 3 top WWs in a row (even though he missed weight against Hughes) you should be asking how he would do against 3 top MW's cos then he'd be fighting people his size ehich is what PfP is all about.

I'm not saying Alves shouldn't cut the weight to make WW, fair play to him, but he shouldn't be discussed on a PfP ranking basis because if he was the same size as the other fighters at WW he wouldn't have had so much success against them IMO.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Bazza89 said:


> You can still have HW's at the top because IMO it should be based on the assumption that their speed will translate to whatever size they are shrunk.
> 
> DJ Syko the fact that he makes 170lbs has nothing to do with the fact that his size is his biggest asset. (In his last 3 fights hasn't he weighed in at 174 and 171twice BTW?)
> 
> ...


How is his size his biggest asset? His biggest assest is clearly his striking.

So What if he fought his last 3 opponents at exactly the same weight, what do you think the outcome would be? 

Am not going to say it isnt an advantage because it is but its very slight IMO and i dont think his size has played the factor in his fights. It just because he is a better fighter.

And when the weight difference is only 10lbs the only thing i can think it as an advantage is for wrestling or grappling.

And why should we ask how he would do at MW? he fights at WW, him fighting at MW has nothing to with it.

The fact is it is impossible to tell who is the p4p best fighters on the planet because they cant all fight each other. But Thiago has the wins to easily be mentioned on the list


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

DJ Syko said:


> How is his size his biggest asset? His biggest assest is clearly his striking.
> 
> So What if he fought his last 3 opponents at exactly the same weight, what do you think the outcome would be?
> 
> ...


His power is his biggest asset, his striking isn't the most technical, especially his boxing, but it's his sheer power that people are worried about when they're fighting him.

I think he still would have beat Hughes pretty much the same way but TBH I don't count that fight for much seeing as he came in 4lbs over.

I think Karo and particularly Kos could have given him a lot more trouble if he didn't have such a noticeable size advantage but that's not my point and we'll never know anyway.

My point is that the idea of PfP was if everybody was the same size, who would win. And you simply can't apply that to Thiago seeing as he never fights anyone who's his own size, that's where I was getting with the MW thing.

Look at it this way, if Dan Henderson beat Hughes, Karo and Kos you wouldn't rank him top 10 PfP because he's a lot bigger than them, just like Alves. In fact seeing as Hendo doesn't really cut much (if any) weight when he fights ay 205, Thiago weighs nearly as much as Dan did when he fought Rampage. 

And that much extra weight applies to striking too, otherwise boxing wouldn't have weightclasses would it?

Not every fighter cuts weight either, Dustin Hazelett said the other day that he weighed about 171/172 in the ring against McRory. You can't be considered a top PfP fighter if your fights are against people 15-30lbs lighter than you surely.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Bazza89 said:


> You can't be considered a top PfP fighter if your fights are against people 15-30lbs lighter than you surely.


Agreed.

I think most people throw around the term p4p, when really they mean "currently most impressive", and while most of the time the two go hand in hand, they are different


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I think most people throw around the term p4p, when really they mean "currently most impressive", and while most of the time the two go hand in hand, they are different


Exactly, I'm not shitting on Alves as I fighter cos he's obviously a top WW but you can't rate him on beating other fighters his own weight cos he just hasn't done that.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

> His power is his biggest asset, his striking isn't the most technical, especially his boxing, but it's his sheer power that people are worried about when they're fighting him**


But thats not necessarily down his weight either, look at randy he is always smaller than his opponents at HW, but he still has good power and strength and do you think he still wouldnt of KO'd Karo or Hughes if he was lighter? 



> I think he still would have beat Hughes pretty much the same way but TBH I don't count that fight for much seeing as he came in 4lbs over**


I Dont think 3-4lbs is enough to discredit his win** He still beat 1 of the best WW's ever, but thats the only fight i can say he had a clear weight advantage**



> My point is that the idea of PfP was if everybody was the same size, who would win** And you simply can't apply that to Thiago seeing as he never fights anyone who's his own size, that's where I was getting with the MW thing**


I understand what your saying but i still think he would beat his opponents if he was exactly the same size and i think thats where we disagree with each other**



> Look at it this way, if Dan Henderson beat Hughes, Karo and Kos you wouldn't rank him top 10 PfP because he's a lot bigger than them, just like Alves** In fact seeing as Hendo doesn't really cut much (if any) weight when he fights ay 205, Thiago weighs nearly as much as Dan did when he fought Rampage**


And yet Dan still does very well at LHW, infact most people think he is a better LHW than a MW** Thats the point am making is that when the weight difference is only 10-15lbs i dont think theres much of an advantage if any** I still think it comes down to whos the better fighter**



> And that much extra weight applies to striking too, otherwise boxing wouldn't have weightclasses would it?


yeah, but not when the weight difference is 10-15lbs max**



> Not every fighter cuts weight either, Dustin Hazelett said the other day that he weighed about 171/172 in the ring against McRory** You can't be considered a top PfP fighter if your fights are against people 15-30lbs lighter than you surely**


See, you are sought of contradicting yourself there, because your say Hazelett doesnt cut any weight, yet he is a top WW even when fighting people who are 10-20lbs more than him** That much weight doesn't affect the outcome IMO and theres nothing to prove that it does**


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

DJ Syko said:


> I Dont think 3-4lbs is enough to discredit his win** He still beat 1 of the best WW's ever, but thats the only fight i can say he had a clear weight advantage**


Of course it is, Hughes made 170, if Thiago had sweated out those extra 3/4 lbs before the weight ins he would have been a lot weaker and maybe even lost the fight**



DJ Syko said:


> I understand what your saying but i still think he would beat his opponents if he was exactly the same size and i think thats where we disagree with each other**


The point isn't what we think it's what we know and you don't know that Alves would have beat them if he didn't outweigh them by 15-20lbs




DJ Syko said:


> yeah, but not when the weight difference is 10-15lbs max**


Why does boxing have weightclasses 7lbs apart then??





DJ Syko said:


> See, you are sought of contradicting yourself there, because your say Hazelett doesnt cut any weight, yet he is a top WW even when fighting people who are 10-20lbs more than him** That much weight doesn't affect the outcome IMO and theres nothing to prove that it does


I'm not contradicting myself at all** 

My point was that it's possible to be a good fighter without a weight advantage look at BJ, Fedor and the old Crocop, my point is that Alves hasn't proved himself to be a top fighter without using his massive weight advantage**

If you can't see that Alves's ability to cut a lot of weight and rehydrate quickly isn't a huge part of his **** and also how his size advantage over all of his opponents should exclude him from being a top PfP fighter then I dont think you really understand what the term pound for pound means**


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

DJ Syko said:


> But thats not necessarily down his weight either, look at randy he is always smaller than his opponents at HW, but he still has good power and strength and do you think he still wouldnt of KO'd Karo or Hughes if he was lighter?
> 
> 
> I Dont think 3-4lbs is enough to discredit his win** He still beat 1 of the best WW's ever, but thats the only fight i can say he had a clear weight advantage**
> ...


You were doing pretty well up until this statement** Hazelett has a great future to look forward to in MMA, but he's not a top WW yet** And i'm sure when he reaches that level, he'll be cutting weight also**

And 10-15lbs makes a whole lot of difference to punching power, hence why boxing has so many different weight classes**

I think the point Bazza is trying to make is that pound for pound (ie for every pound that Alvez weighs) he's not as effective as he should be** He relies on that extra bit of weight to give him an edge** And while thats perfectly acceptable, it tarnishes a claim to be a top 10 p4p fighter in my opinion


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

> Of course it is, Hughes made 170, if Thiago had sweated out those extra 3/4 lbs before the weight ins he would have been a lot weaker and maybe even lost the fight**


Yeah there and then he would of been weaker and what not, but if he had the time to cut the weight properly it wouldnt of made any difference to the fight** 




> The point isn't what we think it's what we know and you don't know that Alves would have beat them if he didn't outweigh them by 15-20lbs


I dont belive he out weighs his opponents by 15-20lbs** But yeah your right i dont 100% know he would of beat them, but i think the weight had nothing to with outcome of the fights**



> Why does boxing have weightclasses 7lbs apart then??


Well of course the extra weight will be an advantage in boxing because they are constantly punching each other in the head for 12 rounds** 



> My point was that it's possible to be a good fighter without a weight advantage look at BJ, Fedor and the old Crocop, my point is that Alves hasn't proved himself to be a top fighter without using his massive weight advantage**


Its not a Massive weight advantage they still have to make the 170 limit** Brock v Randy is a massive weight advantage**



> If you can't see that Alves's ability to cut a lot of weight and rehydrate quickly isn't a huge part of his **** and also how his size advantage over all of his opponents should exclude him from being a top PfP fighter then I dont think you really understand what the term pound for pound means**


I honestly dont think his cutting weight has anything to do with his wins i just think he is a better fighter and of course i know what pound for pound means and Thiago fights at 170 so i judge him at 170** I am not even a big Alves fan, but still recognize he is one of the best fighters on the planet**


And Lone Wolf i didnt mean a top WW as in top 5, i just meant he is a top WW in general as in he is a very good WW fighter**


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

DJ Syko said:


> Yeah there and then he would of been weaker and what not, but if he had the time to cut the weight properly it wouldnt of made any difference to the fight


He had enough time to cut the weight but he didn't beacuse he would have been exhausted therefore it did make a difference**





DJ Syko said:


> I dont belive he out weighs his opponents by 15-20lbs** But yeah your right i dont 100% know he would of beat them, but i think the weight had nothing to with outcome of the fights**


He does outweigh his opponent by 15-20 lbs though** He's said that he weighs 198-199 fight time and considering most fighters at 170 don't cut more than 15lbs and a lot don't cut more than 10 then it's pretty clear how much of a weight advantage he has**





DJ Syko said:


> Well of course the extra weight will be an advantage in boxing because they are constantly punching each other in the head for 12 rounds**


So how does it not make a difference to striking in MMA? Would you rather get hit by someone who weighs 170lbs or someone who weighs 200?




DJ Syko said:


> I honestly dont think his cutting weight has anything to do with his wins i just think he is a better fighter and of course i know what pound for pound means and Thiago fights at 170 so i judge him at 170** I am not even a big Alves fan, but still recognize he is one of the best fighters on the planet**


Of course it makes a diffeence or he wouldn't cut that much weight** He might weigh in at 170 but he fights at nearly 200 so you can't fairly judge how he'd fair fighting people he doesn't hold a significant weight advantage over**


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

You do know he was injured before the matt hughes fight? and thats why he didnt make weight**

If it is that much of an advantage then, why doesn't everyone do it? Everyone else has the same choice as him and if they cant do it then that's there problem** 

He makes the 170 limit so you have to judge him by that, because thats all we know and no one knows how much they weigh for the fight**

and the only fight where he looks significantly bigger in was the Hughes fight**


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

DJ Syko said:


> You do know he was injured before the matt hughes fight? and thats why he didnt make weight**
> 
> *If it is that much of an advantage then, why doesn't everyone do it? Everyone else has the same choice as him and if they cant do it then that's there problem***
> 
> ...



He's not saying that Alves shouldnt cut weight, he's saying that it impacts the claim for him as a top p4p fighter**

Thats one of my gripes with Lesnar being up there** for the sheer size and weight of the guy, he's nowhere near as good as he can or infact will be, therefore to consider him a top 10 p4p fighter is absurd**

And most fighters do cut weight, just not as much as Alves** That guy has some super science secret going on


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

DJ Syko said:


> You do know he was injured before the matt hughes fight? and thats why he didnt make weight**
> 
> If it is that much of an advantage then, why doesn't everyone do it? Everyone else has the same choice as him and if they cant do it then that's there problem**
> 
> ...


He looked okay during the fight so he can't have been injured too badly**

And not everyone can cut that much weight let alone pack it back on in 24hrs and be alright to fight** My point was that Alves talent for cutting large ammounts of weight and then rehydrating quickly don't count when it comes to PfP since it's based on the assumption that everyone's the same size**

You seem to have forgotten what the argument was since I wasn't debating him fighting at 170 or even his standing in that division simply the fact that being 10 - 15lbs heavier than every opponent means that these fights can't really be considered when it comes to PfP rankings**


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

The Lone Wolf said:


> He's not saying that Alves shouldnt cut weight, he's saying that it impacts the claim for him as a top p4p fighter**
> 
> Thats one of my gripes with Lesnar being up there** for the sheer size and weight of the guy, he's nowhere near as good as he can or infact will be, therefore to consider him a top 10 p4p fighter is absurd**
> 
> And most fighters do cut weight, just not as much as Alves** That guy has some super science secret going on


But he makes the WW limit and he fights WW's so you have to judge him as a WW, its as simple as that** what he gains after the weigh ins has nothing to do with it, its apart of the sport**


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

DJ Syko said:


> But he makes the WW limit and he fights WW's so you have to judge him as a WW, its as simple as that** what he gains after the weigh ins has nothing to do with it, its apart of the sport**


But it does have something to do with PfP rankings** If he only fights people that are significantly smaller than him and his size plays a large part in the way that he fights then how can his PfP ranking be accurately judged from these fights** What don't you get about what I'm trying to say?

It's like if Brock were to clear out the UFC HW division finishing Nog twice** You could rank him as the top HW in the world cos he'd done more than Fedor at HW but PfP wise you couldn't rank him higher because Lesnar weighs 265+ whereas Fedor's a soft 230lber**


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Bazza89 said:


> But it does have something to do with PfP rankings** If he only fights people that are significantly smaller than him and his size plays a large part in the way that he fights then how can his PfP ranking be accurately judged from these fights** What don't you get about what I'm trying to say?
> 
> It's like if Brock were to clear out the UFC HW division finishing Nog twice** You could rank him as the top HW in the world cos he'd done more than Fedor at HW but PfP wise you couldn't rank him higher because Lesnar weighs 265+ whereas Fedor's a soft 230lber**


That fact is, he doesn't fight people who are 'significantly' smaller than him** he fights them at his weight class, you cant get any fairer than that** so p4p he will beat most people at 170 and has proved it** What else is he supposed to do???


Who sent me Neg rep saying i am nut huggin???
Am not that big fan of alves, and the discussion is not necessarily about him either, you moron**


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Bazza89 said:


> But it does have something to do with PfP rankings** If he only fights people that are significantly smaller than him and his size plays a large part in the way that he fights then how can his PfP ranking be accurately judged from these fights** What don't you get about what I'm trying to say?
> 
> It's like if Brock were to clear out the UFC HW division finishing Nog twice** You could rank him as the top HW in the world cos he'd done more than Fedor at HW but PfP wise you couldn't rank him higher because Lesnar weighs 265+ whereas Fedor's a soft 230lber**


What he said :thumbsup:


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

DJ Syko said:


> That fact is, he doesn't fight people who are 'significantly' smaller than him** he fights them at his weight class, you cant get any fairer than that** *so p4p he will beat most people at 170 *and has proved it** What else is he supposed to do???


This makes no sense whatsoever and leads me to believe you dont grasp what is meant by the term "pound for pound"


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

Bazza89 said:


> But it does have something to do with PfP rankings** If he only fights people that are significantly smaller than him and his size plays a large part in the way that he fights then how can his PfP ranking be accurately judged from these fights** What don't you get about what I'm trying to say?
> 
> It's like if Brock were to clear out the UFC HW division finishing Nog twice** You could rank him as the top HW in the world cos he'd done more than Fedor at HW but PfP wise you couldn't rank him higher because Lesnar weighs 265+ whereas Fedor's a soft 230lber**


Exactly 
It seems like Syko doesn't get the meaning of p4p and keeps defending his favourite fighter blindly** I like his fights too and Im looking forward to his fight against GSP, but to be fair his skill set isn't even near to level of GSP, Penn, Fedor and Silva 

His biggest strenght is the ability to cut so much weight and rehydrating without that affecting his performance too much** While that ability makes him a top WW fighter, it doesn't really justify him a spot in p4p ladder, specially with him failing to make weight in Hughes fight AND testing positive for banned diuretics after DeSouza fight (to help with the water cutting apparently) 
Hell, basically the fact alone that he had to cheat to even make weight makes him the opposite of top p4p fighter** Everyone makes mistakes though and I have forgiven that already, but felt like pointing out because no-one else hadn't yet**


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

The Lone Wolf said:


> This makes no sense whatsoever and leads me to believe you dont grasp what is meant by the term "pound for pound"


How does that not make sense? if everyone was 170 (hence p4p) thiago would beat most people and has proved it as thats what division he fights in** 

How on earth am i nut hugging???
Am only saying he deserves to be in the p4p list and just arguing my point**


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

DJ Syko said:


> How does that not make sense? *if everyone was 170* (hence p4p) thiago would beat most people and has proved it as thats what division he fights in**
> 
> How on earth am i nut hugging???
> Am only saying he deserves to be in the p4p list and just arguing my point**



This is the point myself and Bazz are making** Everyone in WW doesnt fight at 170** Sure they *weigh in* at 170, but guys like Alves *fight* closer to 200lbs**


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

The Lone Wolf said:


> This is the point myself and Bazz are making** Everyone in WW doesnt fight at 170** Sure they *weigh in* at 170, but guys like Alves *fight* closer to 200lbs**


What is the point your making?

I am saying he would beat most people p4p and deserves a top 10 spot, if you disagree fine** But to discredit his wins at WW is ridiculous**


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

DJ Syko said:


> What is the point your making?
> 
> I am saying he would beat most people p4p and deserves a top 10 spot, if you disagree fine** But to discredit his wins at WW is ridiculous**


Theres another level to this discussion that youre just not getting** Nobody's discrediting his wins at WW** He fights within the rules of the UFC, and has done well** However, because he's fighting at lets say 195lbs, whereas most welterweights fight at around 180lbs, he's fighting people who have a 10% weight deficit on him** Which means he has a distinct weight advantage which needs to be accounted for to decifer p4p rankings, which is why p4p rankings were introduced in the first place** To rank fighters who weigh different amounts, based on the skills and talents they bring to the fight** And since Alves relies on his ability to cut and rehydrate to superhuman levels, this needs to be considered when drafting a p4p list**

Lets put it this way** If Thiago Alves weighed 170lbs on fight night, and he fought a Thiago Alves who weighed 195lbs on fight night** Who would win? 195lbs Alves 9/10 times** Even though they bring the exact same skills and talents to the cage, the weight advantage plays its role**


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Theres another level to this discussion that youre just not getting** Nobody's discrediting his wins at WW** He fights within the rules of the UFC, and has done well** However, because he's fighting at lets say 195lbs, whereas most welterweights fight at around 180lbs, he's fighting people who have a 10% weight deficit on him** Which means he has a distinct weight advantage which needs to be accounted for to decifer p4p rankings, which is why p4p rankings were introduced in the first place** To rank fighters who weigh different amounts, based on the skills and talents they bring to the fight** And since Alves relies on his ability to cut and rehydrate to superhuman levels, this needs to be considered when drafting a p4p list**
> 
> Lets put it this way** If Thiago Alves weighed 170lbs on fight night, and he fought a Thiago Alves who weighed 195lbs on fight night** Who would win? 195lbs Alves 9/10 times** Even though they bring the exact same skills and talents to the cage, the weight advantage plays its role**


I get what your saying, i honestly do** but My main point is that i dont think its his weight cutting that wins him his fights** Even if they fought at the same weight i still think Thiago win**

so your saying that because he weighed more than his opponents then he shouldnt even be considered for the p4p rankings, right? 
So am saying he would still of beat them if they weighed the same ,so i still very much considering him in the in the p4p rankings** And thats where our differences are, so i think we should just agree to disagree, eh?


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

DJ Syko said:


> I get what your saying, i honestly do** but My main point is that i dont think its his weight cutting that wins him his fights** Even if they fought at the same weight i still think Thiago win**
> 
> so your saying that because he weighed more than his opponents then he shouldnt even be considered for the p4p rankings, right?
> So am saying he would still of beat them if they weighed the same ,so i still very much considering him in the in the p4p rankings** And thats where our differences are, so i think we should just agree to disagree, eh?


alright I'm going to start off by saying that I am an Alves nuthugger**

the guy's Muay thai is top notch and he actually has some damn good jitz even tho you really never get to see it** Kind of like how Chuck Liddell has good wrestling but never uses it because he's been so successful on his feet**

If he continues the way he's going I think he could go down as one of the best WWs in history**

All that said he can never be considered a P4P fighter** There are people with the same level of skill as alves out there and much less pounds**


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## Cartheron (Sep 5, 2007)

Confirming I am posting in a p4p thread**


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

DJ Syko said:


> I get what your saying, i honestly do** but My main point is that i dont think its his weight cutting that wins him his fights** Even if they fought at the same weight i still think Thiago win**
> 
> so your saying that because he weighed more than his opponents then he shouldnt even be considered for the p4p rankings, right?
> So am saying he would still of beat them if they weighed the same ,so i still very much considering him in the in the p4p rankings** And thats where our differences are, so i think we should just agree to disagree, eh?


Well, until the guy proves his worth against fighters of a similar weight, i dont think its right to consider him a top p4p fighter, thats all


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Well, until the guy proves his worth against fighters of a similar weight, i dont think its right to consider him a top p4p fighter, thats all


the issue with that is finding someone who's his weight and doesn't have a massive height and reach advantage on him**


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Well, until the guy proves his worth against fighters of a similar weight, i dont think its right to consider him a top p4p fighter, thats all


Am sorry, but he can only fight people in his weight class, what else does can he do? you cant get any similar than that**


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

A similar weight to him would be most 185ers, I'm not saying he should move up but he weighs the same as a lot of MWs come fight time**


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Bazza89 said:


> A similar weight to him would be most 185ers, I'm not saying he should move up but he weighs the same as a lot of MWs come fight time**


What Bazza said, again :thumb02:


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

Wow me and Lone Wolf have been on exactly the same wavelength in this thread, a few times I've been about to post something only to realise that he said exactly the same thing a couple of posts before, what can I say, great minds think alike**

I'll rep you back but I gotta spread some around first mate**


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Bazza89 said:


> You can still have HW's at the top because IMO it should be based on the assumption that their speed will translate to whatever size they are shrunk.


If you rate Penn and Fedor's actually speed, obviously Fedor is too slow. So get to randomly assess more speed to them as they drop in weight? How much speed do they get? That's why the argument of shrinking sizes doesn't work. You have to look at how well their skill sets work within their division. 

Also as to Alves, other fighters have the opportunity to drop that much weight. Just because he is better at it, doesn't mean he should be penalized.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

rockybalboa25 said:


> If you rate Penn and Fedor's actually speed, obviously Fedor is too slow. So get to randomly assess more speed to them as they drop in weight? How much speed do they get? That's why the argument of shrinking sizes doesn't work. You have to look at how well their skill sets work within their division.
> 
> Also as to Alves, other fighters have the opportunity to drop that much weight. Just because he is better at it, doesn't mean he should be penalized.


Oh my God what do people not understand about this?

I'm not saying Alves should be penalised for his ability to cut a crazy amount of weight, what I'm saying is that when you're talking PfP it is under the assumption that the fighters are the same size therefore it doesn't matter how much weight you can cut.

Also if Fedor was Bj's size he would obviously be quicker, if you're saying he would be the same speed as he is at HW then would he also have the same strength at 155 as he does at 230??

It doesn't work just looking at how their skill sets work in their divisions because while LHW and LW are stacked divisions MW and HW are not so it would be a lot easier to dominate those divisions. Do you deserve a higher PfP ranking just because you beat up weaker fighters than someone else??


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Bazza89 said:


> Oh my God what do people not understand about this?
> 
> I'm not saying Alves should be penalised for his ability to cut a crazy amount of weight, what I'm saying is that when you're talking PfP it is under the assumption that the fighters are the same size therefore it doesn't matter how much weight you can cut.
> 
> ...


How can you say that Fedor, who isn't overly quick as a HW, would be faster then Penn. Just because someone is smaller they get faster? To assess how much speed and power someone would have is completely subjective. There is no way to argue one way or the other. I could say that at 155 BJ would be faster. You could say that Fedor would. There's no way to say who's right. That's why I think the best way to measure who does what in their own division or to say who's skillset is better within their division.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> How can you say that Fedor, who isn't overly quick as a HW, would be faster then Penn. Just because someone is smaller they get faster? To assess how much speed and power someone would have is completely subjective. There is no way to argue one way or the other. I could say that at 155 BJ would be faster. You could say that Fedor would. There's no way to say who's right. That's why I think the best way to measure who does what in their own division or to say who's skillset is better within their division.


I think you've misunderstood. He was saying that Fedor would be quicker than he currently is if he was a 155er. Not that he would be faster than Penn


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

What Lone Wolf said.

Fedor is a pretty quick HW IMO and you saying that if he weighed 155 he'd still be much slower than BJ is like me saying if NJ weighed 230 he'd still be much weaker than Fedor.

I agree about also basing it off of what they've done in their respective divisions but you have to take into consideration the depth of that division. 

I think if BJ and GSP were both the same weight BJ would maul him seeing as he matches up really well with him but PfP GSP is ranked higher seeing as he has cleaned out a stacked division and BJ hasn't. 

I'm done with this thread TBH, when it comes to PfP its all opinion really so we're just gonna have to agree to disagree I suppose.


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## BrianRClover (Jan 4, 2008)

I just looked at it myself and it looks good to me. I would probably put Fedor at number 2, and drop Nog down a bit. Remove Quinton and throw Florian up most likely. But other than that, solid.


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## Sicilian_Esq (Sep 7, 2008)

Sherdog may be a horrendous site, but the P4P rankings weren't that bad.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

How is Sherdog an 'horrendous site'? i think you are confusing it with the sherdog forums which are horrendous.

But for the site its self i think its great, in fact its the best MMA site there is by far. 
They have a awesome fight finder, that its self is better than any other MMA website. 
They have some pretty decent radio shows and although they are little late with the news at times it still has all the top story's there. They also have some decent fighter video interviews too and now they have free live shows too, with the next one being Fury FC, where a load of the top fighters came from like Thiago Silva, Rousimar Palhares and Luis Cane.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

DJ Syko said:


> How is Sherdog an 'horrendous site'? i think you are confusing it with the sherdog forums which are horrendous.
> 
> But for the site its self i think its great, in fact its the best MMA site there is by far.
> They have a awesome fight finder, that its self is better than any other MMA website.
> They have some pretty decent radio shows and although they are little late with the news at times it still has all the top story's there. They also have some decent fighter video interviews too and now they have free live shows too, with the next one being Fury FC, where a load of the top fighters came from like Thiago Silva, Rousimar Palhares and Luis Cane.


True. Sherdog deserves a ton of credit for their MMA coverage and for helping launch the sport into the mainstream. And the Fight Finder, while not always 100 per cent accurate, is an excellent resource.

Their forums, however, stink worse than a three-day-old bag of crap. We're pretty lucky to have so many good posters and so few idiot trolls running around.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

DJ Syko said:


> How is Sherdog an 'horrendous site'? i think you are confusing it with the sherdog forums which are horrendous.
> 
> But for the site its self i think its great, in fact its the best MMA site there is by far.
> They have a awesome fight finder, that its self is better than any other MMA website.
> They have some pretty decent radio shows and although they are little late with the news at times it still has all the top story's there. They also have some decent fighter video interviews too and now they have free live shows too, with the next one being Fury FC, where a load of the top fighters came from like Thiago Silva, Rousimar Palhares and Luis Cane.


couldn't have said it better myself, fight finder alone does make it the best by far.


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