# why is headbutting illegal



## SeasonofdaWitch

i don't see it being any more dangerous then a hard punch of a high kick.. it's not like you pull it off anytime you want.... headbutting is an effective tool to beat someone in a fight.. why is it illegal, should it be legal, i never seen what so bad about it is

yes your putting yourself at injury as well.. so there are positives and negatives


Elbows cause more cuts than headbutts...

Headbutts add so much variety to very close range strikes, grabbing for clinch, clinch itself, GnP, remove several 'safe' resting positions.


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## El Bresko

It looks too barbaric i believe and it's not exactly a skillful technique.


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## Dtwizzy2k5

MRBRESK said:


> It looks too barbaric i believe and it's not exactly a skillful technique.


This. MMA has a hard enough time already convincing the masses that it is safe and not barbaric, imagine if people were getting headbutted left and right. It's the same reason why head stomps are illegal and even elbows to the head were illegal in Strikeforce I believe (or something like that).


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## HaVoK

You've clealry never been head butted. It's the hardest part of the human body and can do massive damage. Cracked skulls, smashed noses and orbital bones, ect. Horrible lacerations.

Sound like fun? Legal head butting is a silly idea.


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## Budhisten

First of all, please don't double post when you have a perfectly good "Edit" button at the bottom of your initial post - thank you

Secondly, headbutts are illegal for a variety of reasons - they're dangerous because they're hard to block... You cannot block a headbutt while grappling the way you can an elbow... Same thing goes for headkicks while standing.

Legalizing headbutts would result in many more fights ending due to injury, something that is not desirable in any way.

As MRBRESK mentioned before me, it's not exactly a skillful technique either, nor is it beautiful in any way...

So to sum up, they're illegal for a reason and should stay that way


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## HaVoK

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> This. MMA has a hard enough time already convincing the masses that it is safe and not barbaric, imagine if people were getting headbutted left and right. It's the same reason why head stomps are illegal and even elbows to the head were illegal in Strikeforce I believe (or something like that).


Elbows are completely legal in Strikeforce now. Since the Zuffa purchased they have adopted the unified rules of MMA.

Foot stomps are illegal because of the cage. If a fighters head was trapped against the cage he/she could be killed with relative ease.

There is no need for such things in a Sport. This isnt War or a Streetfight for ones survival.


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## AlphaDawg

I can only imagine how awful it would look if two guys tied up in the clinch just started slinging heads at each other like giraffes. 

For those of you who have never had the pleasure of seeing a giraffe fight, here ya go.


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## czaq

with headbutts it there would be only wrestlers competing in mma... no ko`s, no subs, just decisions and a bloody mess. 

oh and more brain damaged retired athlets


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## SideWays222

Because it would take the skill out of the ground portion of the fight.


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## marcthegame

Headbutting is a cheap tactic it fits under low blows etc. You have to make the sport legitimate.


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## pipe

AlphaDawg said:


> I can only imagine how awful it would look if two guys tied up in the clinch just started slinging heads at each other like giraffes.
> 
> For those of you who have never had the pleasure of seeing a giraffe fight, here ya go.


Hey! thats no giraffe, thats UFC fighter Stefan Struve.


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## Soojooko

SideWays222 said:


> Because it would take the skill out of the ground portion of the fight.


Not to mention completely ruining the clinch game.


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## SideWays222

pipe said:


> Hey! thats no giraffe, thats UFC fighter Stefan Struve.


He swings and misses.... better luck next time.


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## Liddellianenko

I don't buy the whole "it would take away skill", or "make clinching/standup/ground game etc. too simple". 

The whole point of MMA was not to develop "exciting" skillsets and fighting styles that are far removed from real fighting and are rendered useless by a single technique. If clinching is suicide in real life due to headbutts or whatever, then maybe you shouldn't encourage it in MMA which was conceived as an abstraction of that real life fight. 

One other such rule exploitative thing I see in MMA is when someone flops on their back and tricks/begs someone to enter their guard (I'm looking at you Werdum) or touches a knee to the ground, knowing that magically makes them a "grounded opponent" and protected from kicks or knees, whereas in real life they'd get stomped into the pavement for such a cowardly tactic.

The more watered down and rule-exploitative a combat sport becomes, the less point it has. This is why people are moving away from the hug-fest that is modern boxing towards MMA anyway. One should not get used to certain rules because they "simply are" or allow more entertainment, one has to look at what purpose they serve and what tradeoff they have with realism.

HOWEVER, having said that, I do agree with the other main reason that people have given here for not allowing headbutts, and that is the safety of the fighters. What rules there are in MMA are there for fighter safety and abstract the fight to enough of a sport so it's relatively safe to practice and learn from. 

Head butts are brutal, you'd pretty much have a broken nose in every single fight and that's just not something that a normal athlete would want to participate in.


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## SideWays222

Liddellianenko said:


> I don't buy the whole "it would take away skill", or "make clinching/standup/ground game etc. too simple".
> 
> The whole point of MMA was not to develop skillsets and fighting styles that are far removed from real fighting and are rendered useless by a single technique. If clinching is suicide in real life due to headbutts or whatever, then maybe you shouldn't encourage it in MMA which was conceived as an abstraction of that real life fight.
> 
> One other such rule exploitative thing I see in MMA is when someone flops on their back and tricks/begs someone to enter their guard (I'm looking at you Werdum) or touches a knee to the ground, knowing that magically makes them a "grounded opponent" and protected from kicks or knees, whereas in real life they'd get stomped into the pavement for such a cowardly tactic.
> 
> The more watered down and rule-exploitative a combat sport becomes, the less point it has. This is why people are moving away from the hug-fest that is modern boxing towards MMA anyway. One should not get used to certain rules because they "simply are" or allow more entertainment, one has to look at how they
> 
> HOWEVER, having said that, I do agree with the other main reason that people have given here for not allowing headbutts, and that is the safety of the fighters. What rules there are in MMA are there for fighter safety and abstract the fight to enough of a sport so it's relatively safe to practice and learn from.
> 
> Head butts are brutal, you'd pretty much have a broken nose in every single fight and that's just not something that a normal athlete would want to participate in.


MMA to me is a sport and has absolutely nothing to do with real life street fighting. If someone watches MMA to find out what works in a street fight or w/e then they probably wont be around for long. So headbutts certainly would simplify things which is not a good thing for a sport.


Who decides where the line is anyway???

Why not put finger locks. So when someone has a sub one someone they can just take their finger and break it. Lets add in sack kicks. Maybe soccer kicks to a downed opponent. Biting. EYE gouging. Hair pulling. All that stuff works in a street fight. Lets introduce it to mma.


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## Rauno

Because it's a professional sport not a streetfight.


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## Liddellianenko

SideWays222 said:


> MMA to me is a sport and has absolutely nothing to do with real life street fighting. If someone watches MMA to find out what works in a street fight or w/e then they probably wont be around for long. So headbutts certainly would simplify things which is not a good thing for a sport.
> 
> 
> Who decides where the line is anyway???
> 
> Why not put finger locks. So when someone has a sub one someone they can just take their finger and break it. Lets add in sack kicks. Maybe soccer kicks to a downed opponent. Biting. EYE gouging. Hair pulling. All that stuff works in a street fight. Lets introduce it to mma.


Who decides where the line is? Generally athletic commissions, but influenced by a consensus of the fighters, the fight orgs and fans. 

And if you're pretending you're just watching a sport that has no fight implications then you're deluding yourself. 

People don't watch this JUST because it's a sport, if all you want is some random game it's much easier and cheaper to watch ping-pong or bowling etc. Go back to the origins of MMA and you'll see what it is supposed to be about. Try to pick a street fight with an MMA fighter and rules or no rules, you'll get your ass handed to you plain as day.

As I said, the reason you don't put finger locks, hair pulls, biting, gouging etc. is because of fighter safety. The point is to keep things as realistic as possible, while at the same time keeping the sport as safe as possible for the participants. Where is the line? Well generally the line means that any lasting damage (such as bone breaks, spinal damage, eye damage etc.) should be rare and exceptional things that can be protected against to a great degree, not something that is a given. 

You can't rule out accidents or injuries in any sport, even something as mundane as tennis, but it shouldn't be expected or regular, which is what headbutts, gouges, groin strikes, finger/joint locks would make it. It's not an absolute, which is why you had slightly different rules in PRIDE, or different regions etc., but the guiding principles are there and that's why we have athletic commissions to regulate that sort of thing.


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## No_Mercy

Lolz...good one op.


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## Spite

Headbutting is one the cheapest nastiest fighting techniques there is.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen one guy walk up to another and stick is head in the other guys face, often resulting in broken, and very bloody noses and sometimes the other person being knocked out cold.

Headbutting is up there with groin kicks, eye pokes, hair pulling, spitting, stomping, soccer kicks to the head, scratching and biting.

No place for it in ANY combat sport.


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## SideWays222

Liddellianenko said:


> Who decides where the line is? Generally athletic commissions, but influenced by a consensus of the fighters, the fight orgs and fans.
> 
> And if you're pretending you're just watching a sport that has no fight implications then you're deluding yourself.
> 
> People don't watch this JUST because it's a sport, if all you want is some random game it's much easier and cheaper to watch ping-pong or bowling etc. Go back to the origins of MMA and you'll see what it is supposed to be about. Try to pick a street fight with an MMA fighter and rules or no rules, you'll get your ass handed to you plain as day.
> 
> As I said, the reason you don't put finger locks, hair pulls, biting, gouging etc. is because of fighter safety. The point is to keep things as realistic as possible, while at the same time keeping the sport as safe as possible for the participants. Where is the line? Well generally the line means that any lasting damage (such as bone breaks, spinal damage, eye damage etc.) should be rare and exceptional things that can be protected against to a great degree, not something that is a given.
> 
> You can't rule out accidents or injuries in any sport, even something as mundane as tennis, but it shouldn't be expected or regular, which is what headbutts, gouges, groin strikes, finger/joint locks would make it. It's not an absolute, which is why you had slightly different rules in PRIDE, or different regions etc., but the guiding principles are there and that's why we have athletic commissions to regulate that sort of thing.



So your going to tell me why i watch the sport???

I literally could give 2 shits about what and what does not work in a street fight. I watch MMA because its a sport about MMA. I like the way it is right now and i dont want to change anything. I dont pretend that id be able to pull off a flying triangle against someone on the streets just because i try it in the gym. 
Some people do look at MMA as a street fight and imo those people are stupid and probably arnt fans of MMA but instead tools that pretend they love fighting. They are the people that start saying stuff like "Man im bored.. do something" as soon as the fight stalls for a bit.

Athletic Commissions do draw the line and they have. NO HEADBUTTS.


Now to the good part.
If you think Headbutts wont take some skill out of the sport then you are deluding Yourself. There are ALOT of reasons why headbutts are not allowed all which have been mentioned in this thread. And in alot of ways they could all be true. We dont have to just pick one reason and disagree with the others.


And tbh as i was writing i realize i have no idea what we are discussing. I think its something about you trying to tell me i watch mma cuz it reminds me of street fighting or something around those lines but i realllly think you will say i am wrong on that thought.


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## Freakshow

There used to be this fighting orginzation that was VERY lax in the rule dept. As close as you'll get to a streetfight without the street. Compared to human cockfighting. It caused a massive public outcry and was eventually banned almost everywhere. I think it was called the UFC.......wait a sec. 

without the rules MMA has in place, there would be no UFC. And I gotta say, I enjoy watching 2 superbly trained athletes compete in the cage, than a couple of Tank Abbots.


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## Dr Gonzo

AlphaDawg said:


> I can only imagine how awful it would look if two guys tied up in the clinch just started slinging heads at each other like giraffes.
> 
> For those of you who have never had the pleasure of seeing a giraffe fight, here ya go.


Would of been better if a rhino turned up in a black and white shirt to seperate them. Giraffes spent way too much time in the clinch.


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## Thunder1

"why is headbutting illegal"

Because, (although I love it) mma has turned into a sport. Not real fighting. Real fighting like the original UFC, before Dana got involved wouldn't be accepted main stream. Real fights and the original UFC had no rules.

UFC 1 video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iNWN2QCivE


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## H33LHooK

MMA as a sport is not as marketable to the mainstream with groin-strikes and head-butts and fish-hooks. Based on the business practise of growing revenues by expanding the market, I understand and can empathize.

That being said, I don't care. 

I miss the days of Gracie throwing punches into dude's nutsacks; I miss the days of guys having their hair used against them (I'm looking at you, Clay); I miss seeing guys getting subbed by guys in gi's; I miss seeing a 175lb ninja guy fighting a 230lb bar-brawler.

Are we seeing better and better athletes in the sport now, and is it because of (among other things) the more milquetoast rules? 
Absolutely, and I'm happy about that.

Do I think the fights we're seing are a better product? 
Speaking from the perspective of saying, "It's a fight; _anything _can happen", I have to say no.

.


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## hellholming

Thunder1 said:


> the original UFC had no rules.


a few.

no groin shots, hair pull or fishhooking.. probably a few more.

With that said, old brazilian MMA fights had no rules.


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## H33LHooK

hellholming said:


> a few.
> 
> no groin shots, hair pull or fishhooking.. probably a few more.
> 
> With that said, old brazilian MMA fights had no rules.


That's incorrect.

The rules prohibited eye-gouging and biting, but there was plenty of other condoned dirtiness, such as using the hair and groin strikes.

.


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## limba

Because the skull is tougher than the nose...


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## Roflcopter

Because it's almost universally considered unsporting and a dirty fighting tactic.


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## HexRei

HaVoK said:


> Elbows are completely legal in Strikeforce now. Since the Zuffa purchased they have adopted the unified rules of MMA.
> 
> Foot stomps are illegal because of the cage. If a fighters head was trapped against the cage he/she could be killed with relative ease.
> 
> There is no need for such things in a Sport. This isnt War or a Streetfight for ones survival.


head stomps are illegal, foot stomps are perfectly legal. I assume you just misspoke 



hellholming said:


> a few.
> 
> no groin shots, hair pull or fishhooking.. probably a few more.
> 
> With that said, old brazilian MMA fights had no rules.


groin shots were legal in the first ufc's. they introduced the groin strike rule after keith hackney's famous thousand-nut-punch bout with joe son at ufc 4.


to address the topic, at one of the early ufc's (I want to say 25 or 26?) Goldberg and (IIRC) Jeff Blatnick are talking and one of them says headbutts were made illegal to protect the heads of the competitors... whatever that means.

I personally don't really think their being illegal takes much away from the fight although in a perfect world i'd like to see them legalized.


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## Fedornumber1!

Who would be the best fighter in the world if they were legal? Would BJJ even work like it does now?


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## HexRei

Fedornumber1! said:


> Who would be the best fighter in the world if they were legal? Would BJJ even work like it does now?


Coleman used to smash people's faces with them. I think the best wrestler would probably be dominating the scene in such a case.


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## Liddellianenko

Fedornumber1! said:


> Who would be the best fighter in the world if they were legal? Would BJJ even work like it does now?


I imagine BJJ would be rendered a lot weaker. Only top/back control would be handy, the guard would pretty much be useless.


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## Fedornumber1!

Liddellianenko said:


> I imagine BJJ would be rendered a lot weaker. Only top/back control would be handy, the guard would pretty much be useless.


Well there was that fight with Mark Kerr and Fabio gurgel. Although gurgel got smashed into retierment, he was still able to maintain guard most of the time, succombing to some brutall headbutts but still maintaining guard and never being finished despite the odds. Maybe bjj would of evolved with the no holds barred "sport" like it has with the sport of now.


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## SeasonofdaWitch

the point i am saying MMA is a sport, but i just get pissed when people say its real fighting.... its no where near REAL FIGHTING......

*in MMA you CAN NOT*

*Butting with the head
Eye gouging of any kind
Biting
Spitting at an opponent
Hair pulling
Fish hooking
Groin attacks of any kind
Putting a finger into any orifice or any cut or laceration of an opponent
Small joint manipulation
Striking downward using the point of the elbow
Striking to the spine or the back of the head
Kicking to the kidney with a heel
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
Grabbing the clavicle
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
Stomping a grounded opponent
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck

from the unified rules of mma
*

all im saying is, can we really prove who the Ultimate Fighter is, without the legalizing these rules.... im sure there has to be some rules, but if they, the ufc, really legalized these rules..

the fight world would change dramatically

BJJ wouldn't mean sh*t anymore..

and anderson, gsp, fedor,etc... would of they of been the top dogs of the mma world?

what is the line,


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## SeasonofdaWitch

MRBRESK said:


> It looks too *barbaric *i believe and it's not exactly a skillful technique.


what... that is probably the most stupid thing i ever heard...


all fighting is barbaric, Punching, Kicking, Brazilian Jiujitsu, choking someone etc... all those beatiful fighting techniques, are Barbaric

causing harm to another individual is Barbaric

there is nothing "gentleman" about fighting, its all Barbaric...

fighting is fighting... are rules do is regulate the fighting, im not say bring guns and knives in the ring, but be more lax, if MMA is going to promote itself as "Ultimate Fighting".. then please make it as possible real fighting as you can


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## joshua7789

SeasonofdaWitch said:


> what... that is probably the most stupid thing i ever heard...
> 
> 
> all fighting is barbaric, Punching, Kicking, Brazilian Jiujitsu, choking someone etc... all those beatiful fighting techniques, are Barbaric
> 
> causing harm to another individual is Barbaric
> 
> there is nothing "gentleman" about fighting, its all Barbaric...
> 
> fighting is fighting... are rules do is regulate the fighting, im not say bring guns and knives in the ring, but be more lax, if MMA is going to promote itself as "Ultimate Fighting".. then please make it as possible real fighting as you can


Yeah, because the sport was doing so well when it had less rules and was closer to a real fight...


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## SeasonofdaWitch

SeasonofdaWitch said:


> what... that is probably the most stupid thing i ever heard...
> 
> 
> all fighting is barbaric, Punching, Kicking, Brazilian Jiujitsu, choking someone etc... all those beatiful fighting techniques, are Barbaric
> 
> causing harm to another individual is Barbaric
> 
> there is nothing "gentleman" about fighting, its all Barbaric...
> 
> fighting is fighting... are rules do is regulate the fighting, im not say bring guns and knives in the ring, but be more lax, if MMA is going to promote itself as "Ultimate Fighting".. then please make it as possible real fighting as you can


maybe groin shots and fishooking stay illegal, but i see nothign wrong with headbutting

some say if headbutting was legal, wrestlers would be dominant.

explain?


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## SeasonofdaWitch

joshua7789 said:


> Yeah, because the sport was doing so well when it had less rules and was closer to a real fight...


its not about how good the sport was doing... its about what is real fighting, and what is not, and what is the line when it comes to mma and these rules

the guy basically said headbutting was barbaric, and i replied saying all fighting is barbaric.. cause that what it is..


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## SeasonofdaWitch

for example

yeah overeem is a beast, but would he really be dominant if these rules were legalized.. he would have all these rules against him...

but then again he would have all these rules for him, can you imagine a uberknee to the groin


so many variables


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## joshua7789

SeasonofdaWitch said:


> its not about how good the sport was doing... its about what is real fighting, and what is not, and what is the line when it comes to mma and these rules
> 
> the guy basically said headbutting was barbaric, and i replied saying all fighting is barbaric.. cause that what it is..


None of what your suggesting would make what goes on in the UFC actually resemble a real fight. In a real fight, people can and will use weapons, peoples friends join in, people get hit when they are not looking and without any actual warning. If you want to see a real fight, start hanging out in dive bars, its not pretty or particularly fun to watch. If you want to watch an exciting sport, watch and mma event. There is a drastic difference in the two and there is good reason for that.


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## SeasonofdaWitch

joshua7789 said:


> None of what your suggesting would make what goes on in the UFC actually resemble a real fight. In a real fight, people can and will use weapons, peoples friends join in, people get hit when they are not looking and without any actual warning. If you want to see a real fight, start hanging out in dive bars, its not pretty or particularly fun to watch. If you want to watch an exciting sport, watch and mma event. There is a drastic difference in the two and there is good reason for that.


i said that, no weapons should be allowed... but im talking make it like good ol fashion hand 2 hand combat..... fighting with your body

if someone has long hair, use that against them, pull there hair..... piss them off, bite the **** out of there neck.. someones get you in there guard, headbutt them to sh*t, pinch...
*
ok maybe in my ideal mma world...
*
i love the ufc how it is, but i still believe there could be some more relaxed rules


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## Mckeever

Don't feed da troll.


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## SideWays222

SeasonofdaWitch said:


> i said that, no weapons should be allowed... but im talking make it like good ol fashion hand 2 hand combat..... fighting with your body
> 
> if someone has long hair, use that against them, pull there hair..... piss them off, bite the **** out of there neck.. someones get you in there guard, headbutt them to sh*t, pinch...
> *
> ok maybe in my ideal mma world...
> *
> i love the ufc how it is, but i still believe there could be some more relaxed rules


That is the dumbest thing iv read on this forum in the past 6 months.


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## joshua7789

Mckeever said:


> Don't feed da troll.


I always give people the benefit of the doubt when they are new...I love to much.


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## SeasonofdaWitch

SideWays222 said:


> That is the dumbest thing iv read on this forum in the past 6 months.


that's because your not that smart..:thumb02:


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## SideWays222

SeasonofdaWitch said:


> that's because your not that smart..:thumb02:


Yes... thats why.


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## Fedornumber1!

How does the troll have such a spectacular aura about him?

If anything, the downward elbow rule should be changed


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## HaVoK

HexRei said:


> head stomps are illegal, foot stomps are perfectly legal. I assume you just misspoke


You assumed correctly. :thumbsup:


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## Rygu

I'm so amazed to see 47 posts in such a horrible thread, that i'm going to be #48.

Btw, they're illegal because they're Martial-Artists, not Scottish Soccer Hooligans


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## SideWays222

rygu said:


> I'm so amazed to see 47 posts in such a horrible thread, that i'm going to be #48.
> 
> Btw, they're illegal because they're Martial-Artists, not Scottish Soccer Hooligans


I got crap once for sharing a small story my friend sent me on facebook about Chris Leben hitting on his girl and also Chris Leben being known for abusing drugs and stuff around there.

This guy has a thread about headbutting and isnt getting half the insults i got. Unreal...


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## joshua7789

SideWays222 said:


> I got crap once for sharing a small story my friend sent me on facebook about Chris Leben hitting on his girl and also Chris Leben being known for abusing drugs and stuff around there.
> 
> This guy has a thread about headbutting and isnt getting half the insults i got. Unreal...[/QUOTE
> 
> It seems like people are slower to insult newer members based upon the assumption that they might actually be completely new to the sport. Sometimes its hard to distinguish trolls froms newbs.


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## Fedornumber1!

I got a neg rep from him just calling me stupid wtf? Speaking of nhb has anyone ever watched rio heros?


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