# Sean Sherk & Hermes Franca BOTH TEST POSITIVE!



## Asian Sensation (Oct 9, 2006)

MMA WEEKLY - Your #1 Source for Daily MMA News, Interviews, Multimedia, and More

i can kinda understand his situation and kinda feel bad for him i mean at least he's honest about it unlike some people COUGH baroni COUGH


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

*Shakes head* Hermes, Hermes, Hermes. Oh well, at least he admitted that what he did was wrong, and came clean about it.

I wonder what this "banned substance" is.

07: The year in which fighters get busted for doing stupid things.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

This shit is just getting stupid.....


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## Kirkardo (Feb 7, 2007)

he still shouldnt of done it but he informed everyone before it came positive. I respect him for that. However, if he would of won that fight by his second knee he would of been stripped from his belt and had a way worse rep then this one


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## MoopsiePuffs (Jan 16, 2007)

reading that you do have to feel bad for the guy though, and he is willing to accept his punishement. but yes it was a very stupid thing to do and atleast he realises that.


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## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

Man this really sucks, but this is the first time I can almost understand why someone would do it.

I'm sure if the UFC told him they could push the fight and allow his ankle to heal he would not have done that, but as we all know it isn't right in any case to take roids.

I almost feel sorry for him and hope the UFC allows him back once he gets banned for a few months.


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## DanMMAFan (Apr 13, 2006)

Yikes, and he's not allowed to fight until next July.


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## murrayjb (Oct 17, 2006)

He just got cornered in a shitty situation, and made a bad decision. It happends to everyone. I wish him best of luck.


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## brownpimp88 (Jun 22, 2006)

Wow, this is quite shitty. I mean another fighter, and a young, good one too, not just a Phil Baroni or a Vitor Belfort or a Kevin Randleman. I see the position he was coming from, but it still doesn't justify it. However, it is good to see him taking it like a man. I hope they don't mess up the sport with this crap.


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## kaiser1041 (Oct 7, 2006)

it would be great if his sample came back clean.but im really disapointed in hermes now these fighters are damaging the credability of our sport


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## dutch sauce (Sep 24, 2006)

poor guy. guess he thought he had to get stronger for sherk..


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## Beeno (Jul 28, 2006)

*Franca and Sherk positive, WTF IS GOING ON*

Go to mmaweekly.com

Sherk is banned for a year, Franca, don't know yet.

Both fighters in the same fight? WTF is going on now?

BJ Penn will have to fight for interim title fight I guess... these fighters gotta stop ******* around.


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## murrayjb (Oct 17, 2006)

He took them to speed the process of healing his ankle.


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## ozz525 (Oct 5, 2006)

*Sherk test Positive!*

"Sean Sherk, the reigning UFC World Lightweight Champion, who last competed on July 7, 2007 in Sacramento, has tested positive for Nandrolone Metabolite. He has been fined $2,500. His suspension period runs from the conclusion of his bout on July 7, 2007 through the remainder of his licensing year which is June 26, 2008. Furthermore, he has been assessed an additional 10 days in order to fulfill the terms of his suspension (365 total days). The additional days will be added at the beginning of his next licensing year when he reapplies. 

Normal levels of Nandrolone range from 2 ng/mL (average person) to 6 ng/mL (athlete engaged in rigorous activity). Mr. Sherk's reported level certified by the Director of Science and Technology from the laboratory that conducted the tests was 12 ng/mL. Both the "A" sample and "B" sample were tested and confirmed as positive." 

MMA WEEKLY - Your #1 Source for Daily MMA News, Interviews, Multimedia, and More

I am going to be honest I thought that he would be caught some day.
The sky is ******* falling tho both fighters in a championship fight being juiced this is nuts


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## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

dutch sauce said:


> poor guy. guess he thought he had to get stronger for sherk..


Did you even read what he wrote?


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## murrayjb (Oct 17, 2006)

oh my god...


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## kaiser1041 (Oct 7, 2006)

**** me battle of the pill poppers.ufc 73 roid rage.does this mean hes stripped of his title


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## kaiser1041 (Oct 7, 2006)

whats sherks excuse damn roids


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## Beeno (Jul 28, 2006)

Probably being banned for one year I'm sure they will strip him.

This is ******* insane. 22 pills, one of them has roids in it!


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## kaiser1041 (Oct 7, 2006)

this could be the demise of mma.ok ill stop being so dramatic but god damn i didnt see him do roids in all access


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## DanMMAFan (Apr 13, 2006)

Man thats crazy. 2 guys in the same fight and the news gets posted like 10 minutes apart. I was shocked when i found out about this.

UFC Lightweight Title Possibilities

Penn vs Stevenson
Penn vs Huerta
Penn vs Nick Diaz
Penn vs Melendez ( not known by too many UFC fans though)


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## ozz525 (Oct 5, 2006)

kaiser1041 said:


> **** me battle of the pill poppers.ufc 73 roid rage.does this mean hes stripped of his title


They have to strip him he is banned for 11 months!
I say sign Gomi and let them fight for the vacnet title in November.
Either that or let Marcus Auerilo and Joe Stevenson fight for the number 1 contendership at UFC 74 swaping there opponents


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## dutch sauce (Sep 24, 2006)

i think it was like 66 pills


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

This shit is pissing me off. Everytime someone tests positive, it give more credence to the people who say that the UFC is just a bunch of thugs streetfighting.


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## Beeno (Jul 28, 2006)

22 x 3 times a day - 66  But I know what you mean.

People gotta stop taking shit period. Eat baked chicken like every other athlete does and work out with protein. If you need to take 66 pills, one of those is bound to interact with something and either A. Give you a false test, or B. Actually mean you are juicing.


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

:eek03:

What the hell is going on?!?!


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

Unbelieveable.

After the uphill battle he's been fighting for years he risks it all with doping. What a fool, he deserves whatever he gets, including his title stripped.

Such a shame, i really respected Sherk.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

What an idiot. I guess i can understand the pressure he was under, but he's a grown man and should have known better.

Hopefully he'll come back stronger, and CLEAN!


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## The 23 Enigma (Feb 25, 2007)

Oh my god...


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## traf_quake (Jan 17, 2007)

oh shit....so is his belt up for grabs now? man i had sooo much respect for sherk...dammit


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

I can't stop laughing at how stupid these fighters are. Seriously, it's 2007, it's the year of the dumbasses.

I wonder if they go ahead and do Penn vs Stevenson for the title. I believe Sherk will be stripped.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

Davisty69 said:


> This shit is pissing me off. Everytime someone tests positive, it give more credence to the people who say that the UFC is just a bunch of thugs streetfighting.


Testing positive for banned substances would make the UFC on par with every other major sport... not a bunch of thugs streetfighting. Thugs can't afford the good drugs.


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## T.B. (Jul 4, 2006)

DanMMAFan said:


> Man thats crazy. 2 guys in the same fight and the news gets posted like 10 minutes apart. I was shocked when i found out about this.
> 
> UFC Lightweight Title Possibilities
> 
> ...


Ridiculous. I was pumped for Sherk vs. Penn too. *SH-T*.

I like how you think though...the first two fights you listed seem to be the most likely possibilities. Both Huerta and Joe Daddy deserve shots...I just don't see either doing much to derail Penn though.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

AdRath said:


> Testing positive for banned substances would make the UFC on par with every other major sport... not a bunch of thugs streetfighting. Thugs can't afford the good drugs.


My point wasn't based upon financial numbers. I was saying that when one or two fighters from every MMA event test positive for a banned substance, it makes the UFC look bad. So when the critics come out saying that it isn't a legitimate sport and that there is no class in MMA, they can pull out everyone of these examples to back them up. And yes, other sports have drug tests, and their practitioners do test positive from time to time, but never to this extent. It's a relatively large percentage.


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## Deadpool (Dec 14, 2006)

Jesus. I leave the forums for about a week and this is what I come back to. :sad01: Why Sean...why?


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## sickcat (Apr 22, 2007)

I had my suspicions about Sherk ....but Franca?

and after reading the apology letter I kinda feel bad for Franca.


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## Balls in Face (Jan 27, 2007)

I knew that gear head wasn't natural. What a piece of shit. I hope he suffers hard for this one.

Bring Gomi in for the title!


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

Davisty69 said:


> My point wasn't based upon financial numbers. I was saying that when one or two fighters from every MMA event test positive for a banned substance, it makes the UFC look bad. So when the critics come out saying that it isn't a legitimate sport and that there is no class in MMA, they can pull out everyone of these examples to back them up. And yes, other sports have drug tests, and their practitioners do test positive from time to time, but never to this extent. It's a relatively large percentage.


I realize what your saying and yes it does suck for the sport. Unlike most 'Pro' sports the UFC is monitored by an outside group the CSAC or NSAC. Most 'Pro' sports practice a self monitoring system and players aren't really tested and punishments aren't made public as much. Do you think only the one or 2 baseball players that have been charged are on steroids? Hell Bonds was at the center of the controversy and is on his way to the hall of fame with most people not really careing that he was using drugs. People get over steroid use and I honestly think its harder to get people over the sight of blood at an event than it is getting them over the fact that athletes abuse drugs (most athletes do abuse drugs of some sort). I think the rate of occurance of Perf enhancing drugs in MMA is a spill over of society and other pro sports where a 'Win at all costs' attitude is present. If anything to me these incidents just prove the level of smarts a fighter has when they know everyone gets tested but somehow think they won't get caught.


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

kaiser1041 said:


> **** me battle of the pill poppers.ufc 73 roid rage.does this mean hes stripped of his title


They should. After watching sherk train I had a whole new respect for the guy. Now that I know his shredded physique and inhumane power is from the use of roids I have to say he obviously doesn't mean what he said about "being cahmpion and holding onto that belt means everything to me" or "30 years of hard work nobodys going to take this belt away" 

30 years of hard work to reach your dream and you piss it all away by taking steroids.

"You're a meathead sean"


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## Couchwarrior (Jul 13, 2007)

I don't have words for how much this sucks.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

everybody deserves a second chance. I'm honestly not surprised about Sherk testing positive. If Franca took them to heal an injury I can see justification, Lord knows what shit would be thrown on him if he pulled out of that fight at the last second.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

Damone said:


> I can't stop laughing at how stupid these fighters are. Seriously, it's 2007, it's the year of the dumbasses.
> 
> I wonder if they go ahead and do Penn vs Stevenson for the title. I believe Sherk will be stripped.


Why take them? I mean the guys aren't even being positive for masking substances. Worst case scenerio: the guy you fought was positive. I mean Gomi never lost to Diaz....... Is anyone really surprised about Sherk though? Not all those pills are just shelf supplements. Half are probably for his liver and kidneys. 

Penn vs Jo Daddy sounds good, but I say give the shot to Kenny Florian. He fought a hard battle with Sherk and lost a decision. Since then he's looked very impressive and who knows if Sherk wasn't on them for 64?

BAH double post...too many threads.


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## Hollywood6655 (Jan 7, 2007)

well let me throw my two cents in........

this is getting crazy...........I am very curious to see what they so about sherk and the belt........im guessing they will strip him.........

Franca........I feel for him........but on the same note he is in the wrong no matter how you look at it.......

Possible belt contenders........I have seen alot of posts about it but I think it might be a combo of either of these guys

Huerta/BJ/Ken Flo/Joe Daddy.....and maybe Spencer Fisher

But to sum it up simply stunning........just like everyone else I had my guess about Sherk and I talked about it with co-workers after the fight saying how crazy he looked/performed and that I thought he was on something.........Franca I would have never guessed


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

I think for Sherk it clearly explains how he could totally dominate Franca in a absolute physical way for 25 minutes. I now know why he didn't look tired before the 5th round started.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

"Under the pressure of literally not being able to pay next months bills I made a choice," - Hermes Franca

That's ridiculous. He's fighting for a title and co main eventing, injures his foot and still might not be able to pay the bills.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

Davisty69 said:


> I think for Sherk it clearly explains how he could totally dominate Franca in a absolute physical way for 25 minutes. I now know why he didn't look tired before the 5th round started.


Not to pick on your post dude but what is Franca's excuse then? Didn't he test positive also?


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

Davisty69 said:


> This shit is pissing me off. Everytime someone tests positive, it give more credence to the people who say that the UFC is just a bunch of thugs streetfighting.


 But only because of the same stereotype based social stigma attached to steroids that's attached to MMA. Steroid use will make you kill your family, you know. 

I mean, using steroids in US MMA is bad because it's against the rules. Steroid use itself doesn't make you a bad person. It certainly doesn't make you any more or less a thug, regardless of the mainstream media's nonsense. 

You're right, though. This will add fuel to the fire of ignorance.


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## J Stokes (Jul 17, 2007)

:laugh: and all the Sherk nuthuggers swore on their mommas life he wasnt using....tisk tisk...


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## rafrojas (May 21, 2007)

take his belt away


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## WarHERO (Dec 31, 2006)

Yea, what does happen now?? Since they can't give the belt to Hermes either??


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

Am I th only one here that might have a little belief that Sherk didn't really juice??? Those numbers are elevated, but that has to do with the Testosterone in your system. The guy IS a freak of nature. Do you think he might just naturally be that high??? It's not like he was way high on the count. 

Please, Please let this be a case of a bad test!!!


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## rafrojas (May 21, 2007)

just give it to BJ


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

Chrisl972 said:


> Am I th only one here that might have a little belief that Sherk didn't really juice??? Those numbers are elevated, but that has to do with the Testosterone in your system. The guy IS a freak of nature. Do you think he might just naturally be that high??? It's not like he was way high on the count.
> 
> Please, Please let this be a case of a bad test!!!


After testing both "A" and "B" samples of the urine specimen provided by Sherk the day before the fight, the UFC champion's Nandrolone level was certified by the Director of Science and Technology at the lab conducting the tests at 12 ng/ml, two times higher than the threshold allowed by the CSAC, said the state regulatory body.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

Chrisl972 said:


> Am I th only one here that might have a little belief that Sherk didn't really juice??? Those numbers are elevated, but that has to do with the Testosterone in your system. The guy IS a freak of nature. Do you think he might just naturally be that high??? It's not like he was way high on the count.
> 
> Please, Please let this be a case of a bad test!!!


Bad test was my first thought especially with both Sherk and Franca testing positive. I also find it fishy because both are high profile and no doubt would have known they will be tested. It just seems fishy if you stop thinking about Sherk's physical appearance and think about it. Sherk was a big guy even when he hadn't tested positive in previous matches so his physical appearance isn't due to roids. I personally suspect that the combination of legal substances he takes might have given off a positive test similar to the way poppy loaf can get you fired from your job for heroin use.


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## TheGreatOne (May 4, 2007)

WOW, I didn't see a report like that coming at 4pm while being bored at my desk at work lol.

You can't help but feel some compassion for Hermes after that explanation. A total judgement call and in the end he played the odds. Even if he got caught, atleast he would only loose $2500 of his purse...but I'm sure based on the kind of person he appears to be, how people will look at him will hurt more. But hey, he took care of his Family, I can't help but respect that even if the doping is completely wrong. 

Sherk, I dunno, I would have liked to believe his intensity, cardio, physique were all natural...really shut some naysayers up...then this :thumbsdown: 

Real shame on all sides...tarnished names, reputations and possible future fights


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## e-thug (Jan 18, 2007)

Chrisl972 said:


> Am I th only one here that might have a little belief that Sherk didn't really juice??? Those numbers are elevated, but that has to do with the Testosterone in your system. The guy IS a freak of nature. Do you think he might just naturally be that high??? It's not like he was way high on the count.
> 
> Please, Please let this be a case of a bad test!!!




Read this from UFCjunkie:



> Normal levels of Nandrolone range from 2 ng/mL (average person) to 6 ng/mL (athlete engaged in rigorous activity). Mr. Sherk’s reported level certified by the Director of Science and Technology from the laboratory that conducted the tests was 12 ng/mL. Both the “A” sample and “B” sample were tested and confirmed as positive.


This isnt no coincidence. He is double that of a rigorous active athlete!

Id like to hear Sherks response. Certainly give Franca a lil room for excuse, but I mean now he has paid the ultimate penalty and is now suspended for a year! Im sure he coulda skipped this fight and the UFC woulda gave him another fight this year.


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## TheGreatOne (May 4, 2007)

Hmmm, imagine a conspiracy in place to ruin the name of MMA....all started by some boxing purists...Thats some X-Files shit, but would be crazy lol


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## BigAGraffy (Feb 4, 2007)

Both getting caught is odd but does that mean the title is vacant, i smell a Penn vs. challenger interim title match.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Wow... I'm in shock, truly disappointed by both these athletes whom I had incredible respect for.

That said, how about a LW division tournament Dana?


Clay Guida vs Frank Edgar

Kenny Florian vs Tyson Griffin

Thiago Tavares vs Joe Stevenson

Roger Huerta vs Spencer Fisher


Winner of tourney faces BJ Penn in Interim LW title match.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

Fedor>all said:


> That said, how about a LW division tournament Dana?
> 
> 
> Clay Guida vs Frank Edgar
> ...


Best idea yet!


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## asskicker (Aug 27, 2006)

I cant believe that after six pages Im the only one who doesnt buy into Francas excuse. He did it because he had to put food on the table? So he couldnt hold off for another couple of monthes but he can go a year without fighting? If he was really that desperate for money he wouldve just fought hurt and took whatever legal medications he could to help. I doubt drostanolone wouldve helped THAT much more than what a legal drug would have. I think he did whatever he could to handle Sherks strength not whatever he could to put food on the table. I may be wrong but I think hes just trying to get sympathy. Either that or hes just an idiot.


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

Fedor>all said:


> Wow... I'm in shock, truly disappointed by both these athletes whom I had incredible respect for.
> 
> That said, how about a LW division tournament Dana?
> 
> ...


I like that idea a lot. I would just take Guida out and repalce BJ Penn there. I'd like to see him fight more then once


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

asskicker said:


> I cant believe that after six pages Im the only one who doesnt buy into Francas excuse. He did it because he had to put food on the table? So he couldnt hold off for another couple of monthes but he can go a year without fighting? If he was really that desperate for money he wouldve just fought hurt and took whatever legal medications he could to help. I doubt drostanolone wouldve helped THAT much more than what a legal drug would have. I think he did whatever he could to handle Sherks strength not whatever he could to put food on the table. I may be wrong but I think hes just trying to get sympathy. Either that or hes just an idiot.


He also has a pretty sucessful MMA school. I'm sure that helps keep the kids from being hungry :dunno:


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

asskicker said:


> I cant believe that after six pages Im the only one who doesnt buy into Francas excuse. He did it because he had to put food on the table? So he couldnt hold off for another couple of monthes but he can go a year without fighting? If he was really that desperate for money he wouldve just fought hurt and took whatever legal medications he could to help. I doubt drostanolone wouldve helped THAT much more than what a legal drug would have. I think he did whatever he could to handle Sherks strength not whatever he could to put food on the table. I may be wrong but I think hes just trying to get sympathy. Either that or hes just an idiot.



I agree, his excuse falls on deaf ears. The sport is truly in a fragile state, just becoming acquainted with the mainstream media. Respected athletes juicing it is not going to win the UFC fans.. at least they did do substance testing though, unlike Pride.. I would much rather know the truth.

That said, I definitely did think that Franca was a lot more muscular than usual against Sherk.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

asskicker said:


> I cant believe that after six pages Im the only one who doesnt buy into Francas excuse. He did it because he had to put food on the table? So he couldnt hold off for another couple of monthes but he can go a year without fighting? If he was really that desperate for money he wouldve just fought hurt and took whatever legal medications he could to help. I doubt drostanolone wouldve helped THAT much more than what a legal drug would have. I think he did whatever he could to handle Sherks strength not whatever he could to put food on the table. I may be wrong but I think hes just trying to get sympathy. Either that or hes just an idiot.


I didn't buy Francas excusse at all. Stealing/cheating to feed your family maybe relevent if your dirt poor but come on. He may have an accent but he didn't just step off the boat and neither did we. Please Franca save your excusses. I just can't believe the people on here saying they feel sorry for Franca but Sherk is a cheater who deserves what he got? lol


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Chrisl972 said:


> I like that idea a lot. I would just take Guida out and repalce BJ Penn there. I'd like to see him fight more then once


Haha, I'd like to see BJ fight more than once, but really he's already technically the number one contender, or else I would have subbed him in for someone else. :laugh:


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## BooyaKascha (May 27, 2007)

Penn vs. Stevenson for the INTERIM lightweight title. When Sherk gets off suspension, Penn NEEDS to fight him or I, along with others won't view him as the best lightweight. Did Sherk juice, the results say that he did. Was the the sole reason for his absolute and total dominance over every one he's fought recently, I'm not convinced of that at all. I think roids or no, he would still dominate BJ Penn. So, keep the lightweights going with an interim title or hell, even strip Sherk's title. The only thing that is important is that next July when Sherk gets off suspension, he needs to get a shot against whoever the current champion is.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

asskicker said:


> I cant believe that after six pages Im the only one who doesnt buy into Francas excuse. He did it because he had to put food on the table? So he couldnt hold off for another couple of monthes but he can go a year without fighting? If he was really that desperate for money he wouldve just fought hurt and took whatever legal medications he could to help. I doubt drostanolone wouldve helped THAT much more than what a legal drug would have. I think he did whatever he could to handle Sherks strength not whatever he could to put food on the table. I may be wrong but I think hes just trying to get sympathy. Either that or hes just an idiot.


I dont buy it either.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

asskicker said:


> I cant believe that after six pages Im the only one who doesnt buy into Francas excuse. He did it because he had to put food on the table? So he couldnt hold off for another couple of monthes but he can go a year without fighting? If he was really that desperate for money he wouldve just fought hurt and took whatever legal medications he could to help. I doubt drostanolone wouldve helped THAT much more than what a legal drug would have. I think he did whatever he could to handle Sherks strength not whatever he could to put food on the table. I may be wrong but I think hes just trying to get sympathy. Either that or hes just an idiot.


It's a reason not an excuse, lol. Franca's paycheck wasn't the best either. But like you said the fighters should realize the consequences too, I mean you can't hide this.


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## anton (Oct 15, 2006)

sherk is challenging the tests.

nandrolone is created naturally in the body and the amounts of it increase with training and sherk trains like an animal so ya never know.

also, his levels were no where close to those found in baroni and gracie so theres a possibility that the training is what caused the increased levels.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

So Im thinking 
Penn vs gomi
Sakurai vs Diaz
Stevenson vs florian
Aoki vs Yamamoto 

Sign the guys that we need signed and lets see some action.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

anton said:


> sherk is challenging the tests.
> 
> nandrolone is created naturally in the body and the amounts of it increase with training and sherk trains like an animal so ya never know.
> 
> also, his levels were no where close to those found in baroni and gracie so theres a possibility that the training is what caused the increased levels.


Good point!


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

asskicker said:


> I cant believe that after six pages Im the only one who doesnt buy into Francas excuse. He did it because he had to put food on the table? So he couldnt hold off for another couple of monthes but he can go a year without fighting? If he was really that desperate for money he wouldve just fought hurt and took whatever legal medications he could to help. I doubt drostanolone wouldve helped THAT much more than what a legal drug would have. I think he did whatever he could to handle Sherks strength not whatever he could to put food on the table. I may be wrong but I think hes just trying to get sympathy. Either that or hes just an idiot.


Thank you! That's the first thing I thought as well. You're hurt, so you're going to step over a dollar to get a dime? The guy just gave up an entire year of fighting to pick up one paycheck. We saw in the UFC 73 preview that he had what appeared to be a successful BJJ school, and I'll be honest with you, Dana seems like the kind of guy you could call to work something out. Either way, if his family was having financial problems before, they're in big trouble now.

I agree, he was doing it to compensate for Sherk's strength. Unfortunately, we're all starting to see it is a very unnatural strength for a reason. This really tarnishes Sherk's legacy. You look back and have to question every fight he was in. He's always looked buff, but how thorough were the tests before MMA became so popular? Did they even test back in the day, or in the some of the organizations he fought for? Did he just get sloppy this time around and take the drugs too close to fight night? Really makes you question the guy, especially when he's that freakishly buff.

A shame, a true shame. How stupid these fighters can be, especially so soon after a the current steroid scandals going on in the news. Are they trying to keep MMA from becoming mainstream? I know Dana would be pulling his hair if he had any, because it seems like every time he takes a step forward he has to deal with some moron doing something stupid. 

Meh, whatever though. Just means my Hilo boy is going to have to beat somebody else up. WAR PENN!


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

anton said:


> sherk is challenging the tests.
> 
> nandrolone is created naturally in the body and the amounts of it increase with training and sherk trains like an animal so ya never know.
> 
> also, his levels were no where close to those found in baroni and gracie so theres a possibility that the training is what caused the increased levels.


Right, and Floyd is innocent too.

My two fravourite sports, MMA and cycling are both rife with doping....yet people STILL make excuses for it. 2 is the regular level, 6 is for hardcore athletes, and sherk was DOUBLE the hardcore level. Cmon, be reasonable!


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

Flak said:


> Right, and Floyd is innocent too.
> 
> My two fravourite sports, MMA and cycling are both rife with doping....yet people STILL make excuses for it. 2 is the regular level, 6 is for hardcore athletes, and sherk was DOUBLE the hardcore level. Cmon, be reasonable!


Double the athlete level but from what I have read not near the usual heavy steroid user level. If what he tested positve for is really a by product of trianing then why not give the benefit of the doubt? because he is ripped? No one is making excusses unless alowing someone to state their case and challenge a rulling is making an excuse. I'm not going to villify someone until they have had their day before the commision. When someone is arrested do you assume they are automatically guilty or do you wait for the trial where evidence for both sides can be presented.


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## PrideFan123 (Apr 8, 2007)

Damn, suprising news to hear. I suspect Sherk's test came positive because of his training and all the damn pills he takes. I don't think he was actually juicing.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

Forgive me, but we already have very damning evidence in the A and B sample. Like in cycling, the ranges are broad to accomodate unusually high natural occurances, and to be double the unusual high limit is unreasonable to me.

We've been seeing the "but what if its just a freak natural occurance" argument for years in cycling (sorry to use it as a constant example, but its probably the most scrutinized sport in the world when it comes to doping) and i for one am sick of it. It's not good enough.


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## anton (Oct 15, 2006)

people were called crazy for accusing sherk of roiding in the first place...now all those nay sayers are biting their tongues.

the same applies here. 

all im saying is there is a definitive chance that sherk's training regime and diet are responsible for the higher then avg levels of nandrolone, which is created naturally in the body.

those fighters who are known to ACTUALLY have taken the steroid (Baroni, Gracie) had MUCH higher levels in their bodies then sherk did...

so either sherk took an extremely small dose, which seems dumb, or the training/diet is responsible for his slightly greater levels.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

AdRath said:


> Double the athlete level but from what I have read not near the usual heavy steroid user level. If what he tested positve for is really a by product of trianing then why not give the benefit of the doubt? because he is ripped? No one is making excusses unless alowing someone to state their case and challenge a rulling is making an excuse. I'm not going to villify someone until they have had their day before the commision. When someone is arrested do you assume they are automatically guilty or do you wait for the trial where evidence for both sides can be presented.


 It's true that nandrolone testing has been under fire for awhile now. There have been examples showing that eating a steak from a steroid filled cow can make a person fail the test. Not to mention, it's a naturally occurring steroid, so it's always possible that the elevated levels are a result of hard work alone.

Here's a little more on the subject:
BBC News | Sci/Tech | Are drug tests reliable?


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

AdRath said:


> Double the athlete level but from what I have read not near the usual heavy steroid user level. If what he tested positve for is really a by product of trianing then why not give the benefit of the doubt? because he is ripped? No one is making excusses unless alowing someone to state their case and challenge a rulling is making an excuse. I'm not going to villify someone until they have had their day before the commision. When someone is arrested do you assume they are automatically guilty or do you wait for the trial where evidence for both sides can be presented.



So the results aren't near the usual heavy steroid users. What does that mean? 

That he was only a moderate steroid user? 

That he waited too long to stop taking it before the bout and that level was the residual effects? 

I agree with the above poster, the range is given for a reason, to include those people that train so much as to cause elevated levels. When his levels are twice the amount allowed on the top end of the scale, I see it as guilty. 

You never know though. he might be like the Horse Secretariat and have some abnormal body that produces twice the amount of the stuff the rest of us do. :confused05:


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

jasvll said:


> It's true that nandrolone testing has been under fire for awhile now. There have been examples showing that eating a steak from a steroid filled cow can make a person fail the test. Not to mention, it's a naturally occurring steroid, so it's always possible that the elevated levels are a result of hard work alone.
> 
> Here's a little more on the subject:
> BBC News | Sci/Tech | Are drug tests reliable?


thanks for the info Jasvil. :thumbsup:


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## Dutch Master (Sep 12, 2006)

HAhaha...Watch Sherk drop these peoples Top 10 Lists super quick!

Personally I don't care about either of them now. Personally, I'm more pissed I ordered the Pay Per View, paid the bill, and I basically watch two guys roided up.

Sherk was at double the testoterone level. Jesus, he wasn't even going to try and hide it it seems. Sherk WILL get his title stripped and he deserves to be banned for longer than a year, and maybe even banned from the UFC. Yeah I said it. What a douche bag.

And Franca? Sorry, but I could care less about how you put food on your families table. Franca don't care about my family, I take care of my own. I liked him as a fighter but now all credibility is lost. So you injured your foot, well BOO HOO! Either take the chance and fight, or call off the fight. You should have known that they would find out. Plus I don't know how anabolic steroids and "healing", but I do know that if you take an injection your whole body benifits, not only your ankle. I'll just pretend I never read that letter. Apology not accepted. 

Can it get any worse?

Next up: 

Fedor on Cocaine! Shogun on Crack! Couture on steroids! Nick Diaz clean?


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## Dutch Master (Sep 12, 2006)

asskicker said:


> I cant believe that after six pages Im the only one who doesnt buy into Francas excuse. He did it because he had to put food on the table? So he couldnt hold off for another couple of monthes but he can go a year without fighting? If he was really that desperate for money he wouldve just fought hurt and took whatever legal medications he could to help. I doubt drostanolone wouldve helped THAT much more than what a legal drug would have. I think he did whatever he could to handle Sherks strength not whatever he could to put food on the table. I may be wrong but I think hes just trying to get sympathy. Either that or hes just an idiot.


Got to page 5 and decided to post. Didn't read your response until now. EXACTLY what I was thinking.


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## Dutch Master (Sep 12, 2006)

anton said:


> sherk is challenging the tests.
> 
> nandrolone is created naturally in the body and the amounts of it increase with training and sherk trains like an animal so ya never know.
> 
> also, his levels were no where close to those found in baroni and gracie so theres a possibility that the training is what caused the increased levels.


Please, he was at twice the testosterone level. Training wouldn't increase male hormone levels. Only a chemical imbalance would. Whether triggered by him or someone else.


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## KO Power (Apr 5, 2007)

If Franca didnt roid up or test positive, I think he would be on alot of people list of fav fighters and how he should fight penn for the title again...lol.


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## anton (Oct 15, 2006)

Dutch Master said:


> Please, he was at twice the testosterone level. Training wouldn't increase male hormone levels. Only a chemical imbalance would. Whether triggered by him or someone else.


Educate yourself. 2x is not an unattainable level and can be accomplished by HIIT training and supplement heavy diets.

Gracie, someone who is known to have taken the steroid, had levels 10x the norm.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

Dutch Master said:


> Please, he was at twice the testosterone level. Training wouldn't increase male hormone levels. Only a chemical imbalance would. Whether triggered by him or someone else.


 That's not accurate.
There's evidence that eating a steak can boost the nandrolone levels of a non-athlete to detectable levels.

There are also perfectly legal supplements that break down into banned substances inside the body, which creates a potential scenario where the the guy testing positive never knowingly broke the rules.

I'm not saying Sherk is innocent, but it's quite possible that he is innocent, or just ignorant.


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## know_pain13 (Apr 12, 2007)

*they both are jerks!*

sherk i had alot of faith in. not anymore. rip him of his title. and franca's story is a load. if he was injured why not go to a docotor and get them to give him a perscription for something to heal it on time? oh wait. maybe its cuz he was not injured to begin with and he came foreward with his story because he lost. they were going to get tested and they knew this. so what made them think they would get away with it? i dunno but they are both jerks. i wanna know what sherk has to say for himself. this pisses me off so bad.


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## fraggerfox (Jun 3, 2007)

Jury is still out for me on Sherk. He's still one of my fave fighters and will remain so until his appeal is over and the results play out. I'll have to keep my eyes and ears open while following the process. One thing that strikes me as interesting is the fact that he is appealing in the first place. Most people when caught will fess up because they know theyr'e caught-they know there is evidence against them. During the appeal process, Sherk knows his entire training regime and life will be scrutinized and he will need to successfully prove he did not intentionally take steroids...not an easy task considering. The fact that he's willing to go the distance to clear himself kinda makes me think he's getting a bad rap...but time will tell, so I'll wait for the final result before passing judgement.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

jasvll said:


> That's not accurate.
> There's evidence that eating a steak can boost the nandrolone levels of a non-athlete to detectable levels.
> 
> There are also perfectly legal supplements that break down into banned substances inside the body, which creates a potential scenario where the the guy testing positive never knowingly broke the rules.
> ...


I can't comment on the steak since I don't know enough about that, but in terms of supplements, it's no excuse and it's his own damn fault if it turns out they're to blame. Some of the more sophisticated supplements are known to have steroid precursors among other things, pop a pill and it becomes steroids inside your body. Sherk's the one who's popping dozens of pills a day, it's his responsibility to know exactly what's in every last one of those pills. If he doesn't know what's in those pills, he shouldn't be taking them.

In the Olympics for instance, every athlete knows what the banned list of drugs is for a given sport, and the maximum permitted levels for various chemicals in the blood. Each athlete is responsible for making sure he doesn't accidentally use a banned substance or go over the limits. The same should be true of all sports, including the UFC. The fighters know what they're getting tested for, and it's their responsibility to make sure they stay clean.


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## the real hitman (Nov 24, 2006)

Man at least Hermes didn't do it to perform better for his fight like Sherk did..and at least he admited he was wrong..I think Dana should cut him some slack


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## Asian Sensation (Oct 9, 2006)

god ******* dammit sean sherk to? this is gonna make the ufc look real bad since the lw divison was just brought back and in a championship fight both fighters are jucing WTF and here i was all impressed by sean sherk's work ethic but in the end he was jucing


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

aerius said:


> I can't comment on the steak since I don't know enough about that, but in terms of supplements, it's no excuse and it's his own damn fault if it turns out they're to blame. Some of the more sophisticated supplements are known to have steroid precursors among other things, pop a pill and it becomes steroids inside your body. Sherk's the one who's popping dozens of pills a day, it's his responsibility to know exactly what's in every last one of those pills. If he doesn't know what's in those pills, he shouldn't be taking them.
> 
> In the Olympics for instance, every athlete knows what the banned list of drugs is for a given sport, and the maximum permitted levels for various chemicals in the blood. Each athlete is responsible for making sure he doesn't accidentally use a banned substance or go over the limits. The same should be true of all sports, including the UFC. The fighters know what they're getting tested for, and it's their responsibility to make sure they stay clean.


 I wasn't attempting to absolve him of responsibility. If I'm speeding, but don't realize it, that doesn't get me out of a ticket. My point was simply that it's possible that Sherk didn't knowingly put a banned substance in his body, which is certainly different than someone injecting themselves with a banned substance.


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## J Stokes (Jul 17, 2007)

Asian Sensation said:


> god ******* dammit sean sherk to? this is gonna make the ufc look real bad since the lw divison was just brought back and in a championship fight both fighters are jucing WTF and here i was all impressed by sean sherk's work ethic but in the end he was jucing


I know man, same here. I lost all respect for him, he's a cheater.


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## ID06 (Dec 31, 2006)

Asian Sensation said:


> god ******* dammit sean sherk to? this is gonna make the ufc look real bad since the lw divison was just brought back and in a championship fight both fighters are jucing WTF and here i was all impressed by sean sherk's work ethic but in the end he was jucing


Steroids don't do the work for you, he is working just as hard as he always has, now the benefits are just increased


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## J Stokes (Jul 17, 2007)

Iron Daisy06 said:


> *Steroids don't do the work for you*, he is working just as hard as he always has, now the benefits are just increased


They sure as hell make it a lot easier...


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## ID06 (Dec 31, 2006)

J Stokes said:


> They sure as hell make it a lot easier...


Try reading the last part of my post. They don't make it easier they just make the progress greater


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## J Stokes (Jul 17, 2007)

Iron Daisy06 said:


> Try reading the last part of my post. They don't make it easier they just make the progress greater


Dude, I don't think you have ever taken steroids and I know I haven't, so we really don't know wtf were talking about. I'm only telling you what my dad told me, who HAS taking steroids due to his bodybuilding career.


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## Okami-Fan (Jun 7, 2007)

, i can't believe he did this


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## Borgstede (May 27, 2007)

This sucks so bad I love Sean Sherk!


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

thats to bad, hate to hear that about sherk :*(


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## WestCoastPoutin (Feb 27, 2007)

That seemed like a real tough decision for Franca. Man...living paycheck to paycheck at his level? I guess he said it best; you gotta love fighting.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

aerius said:


> I can't comment on the steak since I don't know enough about that, but in terms of supplements, it's no excuse and it's his own damn fault if it turns out they're to blame. Some of the more sophisticated supplements are known to have steroid precursors among other things, pop a pill and it becomes steroids inside your body. Sherk's the one who's popping dozens of pills a day, it's his responsibility to know exactly what's in every last one of those pills. If he doesn't know what's in those pills, he shouldn't be taking them.
> 
> In the Olympics for instance, every athlete knows what the banned list of drugs is for a given sport, and the maximum permitted levels for various chemicals in the blood. Each athlete is responsible for making sure he doesn't accidentally use a banned substance or go over the limits. The same should be true of all sports, including the UFC. The fighters know what they're getting tested for, and it's their responsibility to make sure they stay clean.


Most Fighters are not anywhere near to being scientist/doctors it isn't that hard to conceive that a fighter might not knowingly take something that triggers the test. If it comes out that it was a positive reaction from something innocent in nature I hope Sherk can get his good name back.


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## TheSuplexor (Jun 2, 2006)

i guess those 70 pills weren't all natural


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## 2Xtreme87 (Feb 4, 2007)

> Most Fighters are not anywhere near to being scientist/doctors it isn't that hard to conceive that a fighter might not knowingly take something that triggers the test. If it comes out that it was a positive reaction from something innocent in nature I hope Sherk can get his good name back.


Even if that were true an athlete still has to take responsibility for what they put into their bodies. Its like if you a run a red light and you didn't know it was illegal, its still a crime


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## ShadyNismo (Jun 18, 2007)

ffs it says this members.mmaweekly.comThe Article cannot be displayed : Template File Not Found I can't view the article.. godamit


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

Wow, lots of respect lost for Sherk?


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## Boxing>MMA (Apr 20, 2007)

> Most Fighters are not anywhere near to being scientist/doctors it isn't that hard to conceive that a fighter might not knowingly take something that triggers the test. If it comes out that it was a positive reaction from something innocent in nature I hope Sherk can get his good name back.


This happen in the Olympics to some swimmer who took performance enhancing pills, but it is still cheating if you try to increase your performance unnaturally you take a risk. Personally, I think he has been doing steroids normally, because he tested 6 times over the OLYMPIC STANDARD. Sean Sherk is a cheater .


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

2Xtreme87 said:


> Even if that were true an athlete still has to take responsibility for what they put into their bodies. Its like if you a run a red light and you didn't know it was illegal, its still a crime


gonna agree with that... ignorance is no excuse.


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## SnakePit (Mar 4, 2007)

Boxing>MMA said:


> This happen in the Olympics to some swimmer who took performance enhancing pills, but it is still cheating if you try to increase your performance unnaturally you take a risk. Personally, I think he has been doing steroids normally, because he tested 6 times over the OLYMPIC STANDARD. Sean Sherk is a cheater .


The olympic level is 2. He had 6. I count 3 times over. But my math might suck. :confused03:


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## Boxing>MMA (Apr 20, 2007)

> Originally Posted by: Snakepit
> The olympic level is 2. He had 6. I count 3 times over. But my math might suck.





> Originally Posted by: Sherdog.com
> After testing both "A" and "B" samples of the urine specimen provided by Sherk the day before the fight, the UFC champion's Nandrolone level was certified by the Director of Science and Technology at the lab conducting the tests at 12 ng/ml, two times higher than the threshold allowed by the CSAC, said the state regulatory body.





> Originally Posted by: MMAweekly.com
> Normal levels of Nandrolone range from 2 ng/mL (average person) to 6 ng/mL (athlete engaged in rigorous activity). Mr. Sherk's reported level certified by the Director of Science and Technology from the laboratory that conducted the tests was 12 ng/mL. Both the "A" sample and "B" sample were tested and confirmed as positive.


Six times 2 ng/mL = 12 ng/mL that is six times over the OLYMPIC STANDARD. Can you read you ******* retard Snakepit.


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## SuzukS (Nov 11, 2006)

I am but I'm not surprised about Sherk being on steroids. The guy is just too freakish strong not to be on 'em..


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## Ace_Natural (May 27, 2007)

*If Sherk knew he was taking them, all this does is leaves me wondering, what the hell was he thinking, I mean he knows hes going be tested, same with Franca. I hope the UFC strips him, I mean if they did it for The Maine-iac, they should do it for Sherk as well. Crazy tho.*


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## DAMURDOC (May 27, 2007)

jasvll said:


> It's true that nandrolone testing has been under fire for awhile now. There have been examples showing that eating a steak from a steroid filled cow can make a person fail the test. Not to mention, it's a naturally occurring steroid, so it's always possible that the elevated levels are a result of hard work alone.
> 
> Here's a little more on the subject:
> BBC News | Sci/Tech | Are drug tests reliable?


Alright. You gotta know you're cows before you eat them. They might juice themself up to produce more milk or something.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

Boxing>MMA said:


> Six times 2 ng/mL = 12 ng/mL that is six times over the OLYMPIC STANDARD. Can you read you ******* retard Snakepit.


 Hopefully, you're just trolling, and realize that 'average personl' is not equal to 'Olympic athlete,' unless Olympians are just really lazy bastards.


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## Deadpool (Dec 14, 2006)

Okay. SO let's consider that both fighters tested positive. That would make their match fair and square right? Problem solved.


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## CroCopPride (Jan 13, 2007)

i dont think its year of the underdog any more


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## NoGood (Feb 23, 2007)

Sucks for both of them. I'm not really shocked about Sherk. I think he has been using steroids for awhile...But Franca wow didn't see that coming. I feel bad cause I think Franca a good fighter and I'm glad he's got the balls to own up to what he did. I guess Sherk is going to appeal; this is what I've read. If thats true what BS story could he come up with. And for those who don't know he didn't take the roids by mistake with his daily 1000 pills because Nandrolone(Deca)is taken by IM injections only. I don't think he took the wrong needle by mistake. IMO people need to start take responsibility for what they did.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

NoGood said:


> I guess Sherk is going to appeal; this is what I've read. If thats true what BS story could he come up with. And for those who don't know he didn't take the roids by mistake with his daily 1000 pills because Nandrolone(Deca)is taken by IM injections only. I don't think he took the wrong needle by mistake. IMO people need to start take responsibility for what they did.


If you read some of the links posted earlier there is evidence that high Nandrolone levels can be created in the body through training hard and eating of certain meats that might contain hormones that they inject cows. I don't think it is a B.S. story if there are university studies into false positive tests for Nandrolone. Sherk didn't have Nandrolone levels anywhere near the level of many admitted steroid users. I'll wait till the appeal process is done before I condem Sherk.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

NoGood said:


> Sucks for both of them. I'm not really shocked about Sherk. I think he has been using steroids for awhile...


 Yes, but people generally equate high vascularity and muscle mass with steroid use with no regard for causality.

In other words, just because someone is skinny, and anorexic people tend to be skinny, doesn't mean you have a shred of evidence that that someone is anorexic.



> But Franca wow didn't see that coming. I feel bad cause I think Franca a good fighter and I'm glad he's got the balls to own up to what he did. I guess Sherk is going to appeal; this is what I've read. If thats true what BS story could he come up with. And for those who don't know he didn't take the roids by mistake with his daily 1000 pills because Nandrolone(Deca)is taken by IM injections only.


 That's nonsense. Nandrolone is naturally occurring in the body. Just because there are anabolic steroids that artificially raise nandrolone levels doesn't mean Sherk took any particular one or any of them.



> I don't think he took the wrong needle by mistake. IMO people need to start take responsibility for what they did.


 You have no evidence that they aren't. Franca certainly did (after all, he tested for a non-natural substance), and Sherk is one of many to have contested what many consider a completely unreliable test.
BBC News | Sci/Tech | Are drug tests reliable?


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## wafb (May 8, 2007)

jasvll said:


> Yes, but people generally equate high vascularity and muscle mass with steroid use with no regard for causality.
> 
> 
> That's nonsense. Nandrolone is naturally occurring in the body. Just because there are anabolic steroids that artificially raise nandrolone levels doesn't mean Sherk took any particular one or any of them.
> ...


Whoever told you that nandrolone is naturally occuring to the body has seriously misinformed you. All steroids are derivatives of testosterone and only test is naturally occuring to the body. In order to make nandrolone you take a base test and add a hydrogen and carbon in one of the chains.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

jasvll said:


> Yes, but people generally equate high vascularity and muscle mass with steroid use with no regard for causality.
> 
> In other words, just because someone is skinny, and anorexic people tend to be skinny, doesn't mean you have a shred of evidence that that someone is anorexic.
> 
> ...


Are you trying to say that Sherk didnt juice?? Dude, get over it he juiced, and I am sure it wasnt his first time doing so.


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## Danificent (Apr 12, 2007)

I say, UFC have their very first grand Prix with LW's for the belt like in pride or older ufc.


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## wafb (May 8, 2007)

Here's a quick info on nandrolone.

Deca-Durabolin
The decanoate ester of nandrolone is generally referred to as Deca, stemming from the brand name Deca-Durabolin under which nandrolone was marketed by the Organon company. But as the reference list up above suggests there are many generic forms of this compound available. Nandrolone is perhaps the best marketed and easy to get steroid out there and it has always enjoyed an immense popularity. Its fairly accurate to state that safe for Dianabol, Deca is by far the most used steroid. The deca/d-bol stack, it is often suggested, is where the practice of stacking comes from. But what does it owe its popularity too ? Well, nandrolone has some unique qualities that make it unlike any other steroid known to man.

Nandrolone is more commonly known as the base steroid 19Nor-testosterone. As this structure would indicate its like testosterone in appearance but for one small change : the absence of a carbon atom in the 19th position. This gives it a number of very distinct features. First of all it makes nandrolone a notably weaker agonist of the androgen receptor. That alone causes quite a reduction in the risk of androgenic side-effects. This is because it is the only steroid that is affected by the 5-alpha-reductase (5AR) enzyme in a way that makes it even less androgenic. Unlike testosterone which forms DHT (dihydrotestosterone) at the 5AR enzyme, a hormone 3-4 times as potent as an androgen receptor stimulator, nandrolone forms DHN (dihydronandrolone) a hormone that is even less suited than the already mild parent hormone for agonizing the androgen receptor. Those two features combined make nandrolone a very safe bet for people at risk for prostate hypertrophy, acne and aggravated male pattern hair loss. At the same time its estimated that nandrolone is 2.4 times as anabolic as testosterone1, on a gram for gram basis.

Due to the many different ways that testosterone mediates anabolism, one has to take that statement with a serious grain of salt, but it does establish nandrolone as a potent muscle builder and performance enhancer with a comparatively safe character, at least androgenically speaking. This androgenic mildness is perhaps the greatest reason for its popularity. But due to the lack of immediate anabolic activity nandrolone is rarely used alone. Its the most known and sought after product for use as a base steroid, to use in conjunction with a more androgenic specimen to enhance the results without increasing androgenic side-effects to a serious degree.

The ways in which nandrolone exerts its anabolic effects are two-fold. First of all it's a good mediator for nitrogen retention. When nitrogen retention is high, in essence it means that the cells are taking up more nitrogen than they are releasing. Why is this a good thing though? Well every amino acid has what is known as an amino-group, which contains nitrogen. When nitrogen is retained it means there is a high concentration of amino acids in a cell, which in turn positively affects the rate of protein synthesis. Since every tissue in the body is made from protein, including muscle, this means that muscle hypertrophy is facilitated. A second factor is through estrogen. While nandrolone's rate of aromatization is considerably smaller than that of testosterone, it does convert to a particularly powerful form of estrogenВ№. This has been noted to increase glycogen storage, growth hormone release and upgrade the androgen receptor in some tissues. In this case it also entails agonizing of aldosterone, but more on that later.

On an interesting note, the 5-alpha-reduced versions enlighten us as to the anabolic effect of nandrolone as opposed to that of testosterone. Since nandrolone is weakened at the 5AR enzyme and testosterone becomes notably stronger at the 5AR enzyme it makes sense that testosterone would be a better anabolic mediator in tissues with a high concentration of this enzyme, and that nandrolone would be the stronger of the two in tissues with a lower count of 5AR enzyme1b. Because 5AR is not as well represented in muscle tissue it accounts for the finding that nandrolone is 2.4 times more anabolic when it comes directly to muscular hypertrophy. It also explains why its less of a risk for androgenic side-effects such as benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and androgenetic alopecia (MPB). Both the prostate and the scalp namely have high concentrations of the 5AR enzyme.

If indeed the overall yield of estrogen is so much smaller, and so is the rate of androgen receptor stimulation, how then is nandrolone so anabolic? The common belief is through a third receptor : the progesterone receptor. It has been concluded that both nandrolone2 and several of its metabolites3,4 do indeed activate the progesterone receptor and are altered by it. On the one hand progestagenic activity decreases the estrogen receptor concentration in some tissues, it also mediates estrogenic action in other tissues5. So while estrogenic side-effects are fairly uncommon with nandrolone use alone, they can indeed occur and the implications of nandrolone's activity as a progesterone indicate these potential side-effects aren't to be solved with an aromatase inhibitor alone (like Cytadren). As long as there is estrogen in the system (indicating a possible increase of the problem when stacked with another aromatizing compound) progesterone can agonize its effects. And since progesterone receptors are found in breast tissue and have been linked to the formation of milk ducts, progestagenic activity may aggravate possibly gynocomastia. So while such problems are rare, when they occur they aren't easily treated.

It makes sense then that those particularly prone to the effects and side-effects of estrogen would take extra precaution. Blocking aromatase, considering the previous paragraph, would be a poor choice, but competitively inhibiting the estrogen receptor itself with clomiphene citrate (Clomid) or tamoxifen citrate (Nolvadex) might bring some relief since a large portion of progestagenic action is nullified if there is no circulating estrogen around, or if it is kept from being activated by the estrogen receptor. It is generally assumed that 1 mg of either every day for every 20 mg of nandrolone injected weekly is sufficient. Slightly higher doses, or the use of an aromatase inhibitor like cytadren can be stacked if nandrolone is used in conjunction with another aromatizing steroid. It has also been noted that the steroid stanozolol (Winstrol) may provide relief as it too binds to the progesterone receptor but remains unaltered by it. How strong of a competitor it is in such a case and what sort of doses would be needed are as much your guess as they are mine, so this may be non-issue. But it does bode well for the stacking of nandrolone with stanozolol in that you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Another benefit of nandrolone use often reported is the pain-free workouts because nandrolone lubricates the joints. It stores a lot of water (as synovial fluid) in the joints, which eases the impact of the heavy weights handled by bodybuilders and weight lifters. One may wonder how nandrolone can do a better job at it than a steroid that aromatizes much stronger such as a testosterone ester, but its quite easily explained. One study at least goes to show that nandrolone metabolites are also aldosterone agonists6. Although we aren't entirely sure of the mechanism by which this occurs. But, while sparing you the details of this complex hormone, aldosterone has a strong function in the retention of sodium in the body. High sodium levels correlate with a high storage of water and that would explain the aforementioned effect. Of course one needs to note the implication of this of course: a bulkier frame and a certain loss of definition are not uncommon with nandrolone, perhaps more so than with testosterone.

One last note that is of critical relevance to drug tested athletes is the interaction between nandrolone and esterase. Injectable, non 17-alpha-alkylated hormones are often esterified. This means attaching an ester to a specific position on the steroid causing it to be more lipophyllic. That means it stores well in body-fat and is only slowly released into the bloodstream, giving the whole a time-released character. The more carbons an ester has the longer it will last. For the drug to become active it needs to remove its ester. When released into the bloodstream simply the suspension in H2O will solve that. But in the body-fat the ester can also be removed by the enzyme esterase. But esterase works two ways, meaning in some cases it can also attach an ester. Nandrolone is such a case.

Nandrolone with a decanoate ester is fairly long acting (10 carbons) to begin with and if on top of that a lot of the drug can be de- and re-esterified that means the substance stays active in the body for quite a long time. This has resulted in positive drug tests for the hormone nandrolone and many of its metabolites, most notably 19-Norandrosterone up to 18 months after last use of the drug. While this is a fairly known fact, the recent number of athletes (including well known soccer stars) that have tested positive for nandrolone would indicate a lot of misinformation or plain lack of information in some circles. Positive tests, with reprimands, that could have easily been avoided. So anyone subject to any form of athletic drug test should refrain from using 19-Nortestosterone (nandrolone) or any of its metabolites, that includes nor-prohormones.

For those of you looking to use nandrolone as your only steroid, be aware that the gains on nandrolone are not only mild, but also quite hard to maintain. Nandrolone, in the first place due to its combined estrogenic/progestagenic properties, is quite suppressive of the natural testosterone production. Since it actively participates at three receptors its very quick and merciless when it comes to giving negative feedback to the release of gonadotropin releasing hormone from the hypothalamus. But then one also has to take into account its affinity for esterases, making it stay active in the body significantly longer than most hormones. Because that means upon cessation of nandrolone-use you'll still be under quite suppressive conditions, there simply isn't enough intrinsic anabolism available to support the mass you gained, resulting in a rather quick and inglorious reduction of weight.

Personally, for all intents and purposes I prefer boldenone (equipoise) over nandrolone. Its also a relatively mild androgen that has no conversion at the 5AR enzyme, so its not that much more of an androgenic risk, but in all other aspects it's a much safer steroid. Doesn't have strong estrogenic effects, nor progestagenic activity. That means it doesn't cause bloat or fat gain and is much less likely to cause gyno. On the contrary, the gains from boldenone are much leaner. Its also stronger, mg for mg. It doesn't readily re-esterify and due to its lower estrogenic effects, it is not nearly as suppressive of natural testosterone either. That makes the gains not only better, qualitatively speaking, but also much easier to maintain. Also as far as purchase is concerned. Boldenone is becoming cheaper and is very widely available. The availability of Deca is dropping, but its still the most counterfeited steroid in the world. That makes it more likely that an inexperienced buyer will get scammed looking for nandrolone decanoate, than looking for boldenone undecylenate.

Use:

Nandrolone stacks well with virtually anything. Due to its mildly aromatizing and its progestagenic activity its mostly used as a mass building compound by all but the monstrously huge. Because some water retention is a fact, one would not desire to include it in a cutting phase, especially if its one of your first cycles. Nandrolone is used in doses of 200-600 mg per week. 400 mg is the common recommendation for a somewhat experienced user, when used in conjunction with another product. Nandrolone as decanoate, as found in deca-durabolin, is a long acting ester of 10 carbons. That means 1 injection weekly will more than suffice as it has quite a long span of activity

To this effect its preferably stacked with another aromatizing compound. In the first place a long acting testosterone like cypionate, enanthate or sustanon 250. For a beginner cycle, we want to note that the testosterone compound is the most active compound and its therefore more desirable to lower the dose of nandrolone rather than the dose of testosterone. Often beginners look to start at 400 mg of nandrolone and 250 mg of testosterone. A better suggestion would be 200 mg of nandrolone and 500 mg of testosterone. Then bump the nandrolone to 400 mg.

It also makes a good match for doses of Anadrol or Dianabol, although neither compound can be used for the time-span of nandrolone decanoate due to liver toxicity. This isn't the case for a long-acting testosterone ester. Often nandrolone and test are stacked in conjunction with Anadrol or Dianabol for the first few weeks of a stack to boost gains and strength.

A nandrolone stack accompanied by stanazolol (Winstrol/Stromba) makes sense as well, especially for those who are highly prone to gyno. It's commonly accepted that stanazolol can compete for the progesterone receptor, and since nandrolone can act as a progestin, this is a wise precaution. Progesterone agonizes estrogen and while nandrolone only aromatizes slightly and cases of gyno with moderate nandrolone use is rare, when stacking it with another aromatizable compound like Dianabol or testosterone, you may not want to take the chance.

For secondary products one needn't consider an anti-aromatase like Cytadren since one cannot fully block all aromatase conversion and due to the enhanced estrogen activity as a result of progestagenic influence, it would serve little purpose. Using an estrogen-receptor antagonist, while not fool-proof obviously, may serve some benefit. Agonized or not, without binding to the receptor estrogen loses most of its influence. Using stanazolol and either clomid or Nolvadex during a stack with nandrolone is usually the best prescription. Post-cycle use of such substances to help HPTA recover faster and retain gains also comes highly recommended, and preferably for longer than you would with most stacks, since nandrolone stays active for a very long time.



I don't understand why athletes keep taking this substance when there are better alternatives that doesn't stay in the system long.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

wafb said:


> Whoever told you that nandrolone is naturally occuring to the body has seriously misinformed you.


 The link I provided is one of many sources that verify my claim.



> All steroids are derivatives of testosterone and only test is naturally occuring to the body. In order to make nandrolone you take a base test and add a hydrogen and carbon in one of the chains.


 Who told you this?



wafb said:


> Here's a quick info on nandrolone.


 There's nothing quick about that.

And I'd love to get a link to the source of this information, especially one with a date.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

jdun11 said:


> Are you trying to say that Sherk didnt juice??


 If I was trying to say that, I failed miserably. I did, however, successfully say what I was trying to say.



> Dude, get over it he juiced, and I am sure it wasnt his first time doing so.


 I could care less if he did or not, and you're not sure of anything.


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## wafb (May 8, 2007)

Anyone who has basic knowledge of pharmacology and biochemistry can tell you this. Try surfing steroid forums very informative.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

wafb said:


> Anyone who has basic knowledge of pharmacology and biochemistry can tell you this.


 Fallacy: Appeal to Authority



> Try surfing steroid forums very informative.


 Priceless. :thumb02:

Have you bothered to read my link, yet?
BBC News | Sci/Tech | Are drug tests reliable?


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

jasvll said:


> Fallacy: Appeal to Authority
> 
> Priceless. :thumb02:
> 
> ...


Just a quick comment, but as that article is from 1999, doesn't it stand to reason that the research mentioned has been done and implemented into steroid testing? That was 8 years ago, so I have a feeling if anything significant was found, athletes would have been adamant about it being included in steroid testing. Just seems that way to me.


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## wafb (May 8, 2007)

Yes I did. And that's all you can do because you lack the knowledge to argue with me about steroids. It's ignorant people that demonize steroids that gets me going. 

I can suggest a few boards to go in to so you can get yourself educated.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

Calibretto9 said:


> Just a quick comment, but as that article is from 1999, doesn't it stand to reason that the research mentioned has been done and implemented into steroid testing?


 It stands to assumption, not reason. Many of the claims about steroids floating around on this board and in the media are based on research far older than 1999, much of which has been found to be exaggerated or completely made up. The Benoit incident is a recent example.



> That was 8 years ago, so I have a feeling if anything significant was found, athletes would have been adamant about it being included in steroid testing. Just seems that way to me.


 That's why I asked the poster for a date on the claims about nandrolone. Up until 1998, everyone believed nandrolone was purely synthetic, until scientists discovered otherwise.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

wafb said:


> Yes I did.


 Are you planning to address it at any point?



> And that's all you can do because you lack the knowledge to argue with me about steroids.


Fallacy: Personal Attack

This isn't about you or me. This is about getting at the truth. If what I've read turns about to be wrong, fine. I have no personal stake in being right.




> It's ignorant people that demonize steroids that gets me going.


 How have I demonized steroids?



> I can suggest a few boards to go in to so you can get yourself educated.


 In other words, you can direct me to the place where you developed your immutable 'knowledge.'


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

For you guys who are arguing about Nandrolone aka Deca. It is one of the most popular steriods out there. It is a form of testosterone and it gets you very strong and very big rather quickly. In high school I took 20 shots(2 cycles) and I blew up. I gained 15 pounds in 3 weeks. I am not quite sure why Sherk would take this particular steroid. Where he has to cut weight a steroid like Stanazolol(Winstrol) would have been a better fit. It increases ur muscle mass and stregnth without giving you the bloating effect that a testostorone like Deca would.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

jdun11 said:


> I am not quite sure why Sherk would take this particular steroid. Where he has to cut weight a steroid like Stanazolol(Winstrol) would have been a better fit. It increases ur muscle mass and stregnth without giving you the bloating effect that a testostorone like Deca would.


Could it be that he didn't take this particular steroid but tested positive for other reasons. Maybe all these things that 'don't make sense' or 'Why would he use this one' or whatever means there is something more to this than we know? If someone waat the top level s going to use you would think they would use the best product possible for their situation not just take the most common steroid. Like I have said before I'm holding my judgement till after the appeal has taken place.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

jdun11 said:


> For you guys who are arguing about Nandrolone aka Deca. It is one of the most popular steriods out there. It is a form of testosterone and it gets you very strong and very big rather quickly. In high school I took 20 shots(2 cycles) and I blew up. I gained 15 pounds in 3 weeks. I am not quite sure why Sherk would take this particular steroid. Where he has to cut weight a steroid like Stanazolol(Winstrol) would have been a better fit. It increases ur muscle mass and stregnth without giving you the bloating effect that a testostorone like Deca would.


 Again, Sherk did not test positive for nandrolone itself. He tested for nandrolone metabolites, which is a naturally occurring substance in the human body, but is banned beyond a certain threshold.

It's been shown that that threshold can be breeched by genetics as well as diet, calling the value of the test in catching cheaters into question.

On the other hand, there are studies that show that exercise alone does nothing to increase a fully trained athletes' natural levels of the substance:
Nandrolone excretion is not increased by exhaustiv...[Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002] - PubMed Result

All Sherk's failed test proves is that his nandrolone metabolite levels were beyond the allowable threshold. It does nothing to prove how they got there. 

It makes sense, though, that the people most likely to go over this threshold are athletes on diets designed to produce the same results that someone taking steroids seeks.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

jdun11 said:


> For you guys who are arguing about Nandrolone aka Deca. It is one of the most popular steriods out there. It is a form of testosterone and it gets you very strong and very big rather quickly. In high school I took 20 shots(2 cycles) and I blew up. I gained 15 pounds in 3 weeks. I am not quite sure why Sherk would take this particular steroid. Where he has to cut weight a steroid like Stanazolol(Winstrol) would have been a better fit. It increases ur muscle mass and stregnth without giving you the bloating effect that a testostorone like Deca would.


You're correct about Deca/Winstrol, my buddy gained easily 30 lbs in a 2-4 month period, but I don't believe Sherk took Deca. He got caught for Nandrolone, I think.


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## SgtSixpack (Feb 13, 2007)

sickcat said:


> I had my suspicions about Sherk ....but Franca?
> 
> and after reading the apology letter I kinda feel bad for Franca.


Where can I read this apology letter?:cool01:


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## wafb (May 8, 2007)

jdun11 said:


> For you guys who are arguing about Nandrolone aka Deca. It is one of the most popular steriods out there. It is a form of testosterone and it gets you very strong and very big rather quickly. In high school I took 20 shots(2 cycles) and I blew up. I gained 15 pounds in 3 weeks. I am not quite sure why Sherk would take this particular steroid. Where he has to cut weight a steroid like Stanazolol(Winstrol) would have been a better fit. It increases ur muscle mass and stregnth without giving you the bloating effect that a testostorone like Deca would.



Sherk must have taken nandrolone for an injury, it's been known to "lubricate" the joints.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

jdun11 said:


> For you guys who are arguing about Nandrolone aka Deca. It is one of the most popular steriods out there. It is a form of testosterone and it gets you very strong and very big rather quickly. In high school I took 20 shots(2 cycles) and I blew up. I gained 15 pounds in 3 weeks. I am not quite sure why Sherk would take this particular steroid. Where he has to cut weight a steroid like Stanazolol(Winstrol) would have been a better fit. It increases ur muscle mass and stregnth without giving you the bloating effect that a testostorone like Deca would.


He just drains a few pounds of blood right before weigh-in...
then puts it right back in oxygenated immediately afterwards.


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## SnakePit (Mar 4, 2007)

wukkadb said:


> You're correct about Deca/Winstrol, my buddy gained easily 30 lbs in a 2-4 month period, but I don't believe Sherk took Deca. He got caught for Nandrolone, I think.


yeah, but last I checked, Deca coverts to that. I may be wrong though.


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## Boxing>MMA (Apr 20, 2007)

12 ng/mL of Nandrolone is probably impossible to get with eating and working out vigourously. Olympic athletes keep under 2 ng/mL some sports which Olympic athletes participates in do eat more than MMA fighters and workout as much as them. Sherk has tested before and we could see that his tests came back lower than 6 ng/mL. So why such a large spike to 12 ng/mL in Nandrolone? The reason they take Nandrolone is it doesn't last for more than 2 months ( half-life 15 days ) plus it works better than other steroids 


​Bottom Line: We all know that Sherk and Franca took steroids just people like jasvll and Snakepit can't handle the facts that their boy took steroids.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

Boxing>MMA said:


> 12 ng/mL of Nandrolone is probably impossible to get with eating and working out vigourously. Olympic athletes keep under 2 ng/mL some sports which Olympic athletes participates in do eat more than MMA fighters and workout as much as them.


 2 ng/ml is 'normal.' Athletes can be as high as 6 ng/ml. There is no 'Olympic level.'



> Sherk has tested before and we could see that his tests came back lower than 6 ng/mL. So why such a large spike to 12 ng/mL in Nandrolone?


 Too much steak?
Supplement breakdown?
BBC News | Sci/Tech | Are drug tests reliable?



> The reason they take Nandrolone is it doesn't last for more than 2 months ( half-life 15 days ) plus it works better than other steroids


 There's no shortage of incentives for people to take any given steroid.



> Bottom Line: We all know that Sherk and Franca took steroids just people like jasvll and Snakepit can't handle the facts that their boy took steroids.


 Sherk bores me to tears. I'm excited at the prospect of a year without Sherk in the UFC. This isn't the way I'd want for him to leave, but I really don't like watching him fight.


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## SnakePit (Mar 4, 2007)

Boxing>MMA said:


> 12 ng/mL of Nandrolone is probably impossible to get with eating and working out vigourously. Olympic athletes keep under 2 ng/mL some sports which Olympic athletes participates in do eat more than MMA fighters and workout as much as them. Sherk has tested before and we could see that his tests came back lower than 6 ng/mL. So why such a large spike to 12 ng/mL in Nandrolone? The reason they take Nandrolone is it doesn't last for more than 2 months ( half-life 15 days ) plus it works better than other steroids
> 
> 
> ​Bottom Line: We all know that Sherk and Franca took steroids just people like jasvll and Snakepit can't handle the facts that their boy took steroids.


I've never advocated against steroid use in MMA. I'm not upset about Sherks test. I thought he was on them, I was a fan of his. He has tested positive for them. I'm still a fan. 

/end


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## wafb (May 8, 2007)

Sherk must have taken nandrolone phenylpropionate to have a high serum level of it. I know when I take it I go see a doctor and have tests done. There was one cycle where I was taking 300mg of NPP a day and mine was 15ng/L.


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## wafb (May 8, 2007)

Boxing>MMA said:


> So why such a large spike to 12 ng/mL in Nandrolone? The reason they take Nandrolone is it doesn't last for more than 2 months ( half-life 15 days ) plus it works better than other steroids


He probably front-loaded and then back loaded. He also probably didn't inject everyday.


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## raul21 (Dec 31, 2006)

damn it sucks, well there goes the saying what go's around comes around.


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## Boxing>MMA (Apr 20, 2007)

> Originally Posted by: jasvll
> 2 ng/ml is 'normal.' Athletes can be as high as 6 ng/ml. There is no 'Olympic level.'


HELLO!!! Mcfly. Mcfly!!




> Originally Posted at: Wikipedia.org
> Nandrolone use is indirectly detectable in urine tests by testing for the presence of 19-norandrosterone, a metabolite of this molecule. The International Olympic Committee has set a limit of 2 ng per ml of urine as the upper limit, beyond which an athlete is suspected of doping.


The tests are not unreliable those reports are from 1999. The tests have been improved since BALCO. In 1999 some scientists said performance enhancing drugs don't help that much. If you are going to defend a point don't pull up stuff from almost a decade ago. Plus, it is almost impossible for a athlete to test 12 ng/mL and test everytime before at 6 ng/mL. Supplements would spike the test much higher than 12 ng/mL and food couldn't spike it that high.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

I never claimed that the IOC didn't have a set level for detection, which they would obviously have to have. I said that Olympic athletes were no different than other humans in their naturally occurring nandrolone metabolite levels.



Boxing>MMA said:


> The tests are not unreliable those reports are from 1999. The tests have been improved since BALCO.


 I'd love a link to an article that claims the BALCO scandal changed drug testing in the lab. As far as I've seen, it did nothing but call into question the effectiveness of the non-independent drug testing of professional sport, tarnish reputations, and put a company out of business.



> In 1999 some scientists said performance enhancing drugs don't help that much.


 Which scientists? Which drugs? How little/much do the drugs help? Got a link? 



> It is almost impossible for a athlete to test 12 ng/mL and test everytime before at 6 ng/mL. Supplements would spike the test much higher than 12 ng/mL and food couldn't spike it that high.


 Why should I assume this is true?




> If you are going to defend a point don't pull up stuff from almost a decade ago.


 Why not? In a discussion about gravity, I'm going to pull up stuff from about four centuries ago. Will that make me wrong?

But, you know what? You're absolutely right. I'd better find another source. Hmm, where to look. I'll try Wikipedia!



Wikipedia said:


> The International Olympic Committee has set a limit of 2 ng per ml of urine as the upper limit, beyond which an athlete is suspected of doping.


 That part seems familiar, but I'll keep reading...



Wikipedia said:


> Urine analysis as a method of detecting nandrolone abuse has recently become somewhat controversial, following studies by the University of Aberdeen showing that the metabolite product can also show up in urine in quantities above the upper limit from a combination of high-protein diets utilising the legal nutritional supplement creatine and hard cardiovascular exercise. The reason for this unexpected result has not been determined. Another possible (though unlikely) reason for a false positive result is the consumption of beef from cattle treated with steroids including nandrolone (used in overturning the verdict against the bobsleigh racer, Lenny Paul). Heavy consumption of the essential amino acid lysine (as indicated in the treatment of cold sores) has also shown false positives in some and was cited by American Shotputter C.J. Hunter as the reason for his positive test. A final possible cause of incorrect urine test results is the presence of metabolites from other anabolic steroids. As a result of the numerous overturned verdicts, the testing procedure was reviewed by UK Sport [1] in 2000.


 Interesting stuff. I'm surprised you missed that while you were reading about nandrolone metabolite detection levels. 
Nandrolone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Oh, and I can't leave without showing you my favorite Wikipedia page ever:
Wikipedia:General disclaimer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The people that built Wikipedia said:


> WIKIPEDIA MAKES NO GUARANTEE OF VALIDITY​Wikipedia is an online open-content collaborative encyclopedia, that is, a voluntary association of individuals and groups working to develop a common resource of human knowledge. *The structure of the project allows anyone with an Internet connection to alter its content*. Please be advised that nothing found here has necessarily been reviewed by people with the expertise required to provide you with complete, accurate or reliable information.
> That is not to say that you will not find valuable and accurate information in Wikipedia; much of the time you will. However, *Wikipedia cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here.* The content of any given article may recently have been changed, vandalized or altered by someone whose opinion does not correspond with the state of knowledge in the relevant fields.


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## Boxing>MMA (Apr 20, 2007)

> If you are going to defend a point don't pull up stuff from almost a decade ago.





> Why not? In a discussion about gravity, I'm going to pull up stuff from about four centuries ago. Will that make me wrong?


Depends on what you include about the subject, but you are wrong to say steroid testing hasn't changed from about ten years ago.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Boxing>MMA
> The tests are not unreliable those reports are from 1999. The tests have been improved since BALCO.





> I'd love a link to an article that claims the BALCO scandal changed drug testing in the lab. As far as I've seen, it did nothing but call into question the effectiveness of the non-independent drug testing of professional sport, tarnish reputations, and put a company out of business.
> 
> Quote:
> In 1999 some scientists said performance enhancing drugs don't help that much.
> Which scientists? Which drugs? How little/much do the drugs help? Got a link?


Here is a link to prove your dumbass WRONG Designer Steriods: THG I can get more websites if you want about BALCO help improving drug testing and drug testing improving.



> Originally posted at: Designer Steriods: THG
> White was suspended for two years after admitting to taking a variety of drugs including THG, while Chambers received the same suspension after a positive test. THG was created by the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative (BALCO), an American nutritional supplement company. But THG isn't a nutritional supplement. Rather, it is a purely synthetic designer anabolic steroid especially created to make it undetectable under normal drug testing. Until a test for the steroid was developed this past summer, athletes could use the drug without being caught by regular drug testing.


You argue like a six year-old when saying that Wikipedia isn't a legit site and WIKIPEDIA IS A LEGIT SITE SO SHOW ME THE WRONGS ON THE WIKIPEDIA SITE *IN MY ARGUEMENT* AND I'LL SAY I WAS WRONG TILL THEN YOU ARE WRONG . Second comparing any of the these people who give bullshit excuses like 


> Bobsledder Lenny Paul "I ate some spaghetti that had beef that was fed with steroids." *ONLY ONE NOT FOUND GUILTY WHICH IS CRAP DON'T KNOW HOW HIGH HE TESTED THOUGH*
> 
> British boxer "My positive steroid test was due to having sex with my pregnant wife." *FOUND GUILTY*
> 
> ...


If I could find Lenny Paul's results for his tests I would prove to you why Sherk had to know about taking steroids and not with food and workout. He couldn't have gotten 12 ng/mL from supplements if that he didn't know about, because his ng/mL would be in the 100's or 1000's if he didn't stop weeks before. If YOU use COMMON SENSE THIS IS TRUE, BECAUSE multiple PILLS INCREASE YOUR NANDROLONE LEVEL TO MUCH HIGHER LEVELS THAN 12 ng/mL . *I'm NOT GOING TO RESPOND TO ANY MORE OF jasvll STUPID RESPONSES THAT PROVIDE NO FACTS FOR THE REASON I HAVE PROVED YOU WRONG THREE OR MORE TIMES IN THIS THREAD I CAN COUNT.* First, the Olympic standard, second that BALCO and after BALCO investgation improved steroid testing, third Supplements would spike the test much higher than 12 ng/mL, and probably more times I proved jasvll wrong in this thread.


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## PrideFan123 (Apr 8, 2007)

I have to agree with Boxing>MMA, which is rare. He tested under 6ng on every other test, then gets a 12ng? Looks like his "nutritionist" timed the cycle wrong and got his guy caught. :-/


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## AnMMAFan (Jan 4, 2007)

DanMMAFan said:


> Man thats crazy. 2 guys in the same fight and the news gets posted like 10 minutes apart. I was shocked when i found out about this.
> 
> UFC Lightweight Title Possibilities
> 
> ...


UFC LW champion: Penn! :thumb02:
Woulda been him anyway, DAMN I wanted to see Penn beat Sherk in the cage :sad02:.


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## Boxing>MMA (Apr 20, 2007)

> Originally Posted by: PrideFan123
> I have to agree with Boxing>MMA, which is rare. He tested under 6ng on every other test, then gets a 12ng? Looks like his "nutritionist" timed the cycle wrong and got his guy caught. :-/


Probably right PrideFan123, or body held on to them for longer periods, or switched up his diet which prolonged the traces.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

Boxing>MMA said:


> Depends on what you include about the subject, but you are wrong to say steroid testing hasn't changed from about ten years ago.


 I didn't say it hasn't changed. I specifically questioned whether or not the detection methodology for Nandrolone had changed.





> Here is a link to prove your dumbass WRONG Designer Steriods: THG


 I asked for a link, and you provided one. How does this make me wrong or a dumbass?

I also have to ask, what does the Balco scandal have to do with whether or not Nandrolone detection methods have been improved since 1999? 





> You argue like a six year-old when saying that Wikipedia isn't a legit site and WIKIPEDIA IS A LEGIT SITE SO SHOW ME THE WRONGS ON THE WIKIPEDIA SITE *IN MY ARGUEMENT* AND I'LL SAY I WAS WRONG TILL THEN YOU ARE WRONG .


 While, you're not making as much sense as you'd like, I simply showed how even your source backs up the claims from my source. And again, you *proved* something I never argued against.





> Second comparing any of the these people who give bullshit excuses like


 I have no idea what your point is about the following list.  




> If I could find Lenny Paul's results for his tests I would prove to you why Sherk had to know about taking steroids and not with food and workout. He couldn't have gotten 12 ng/mL from supplements if that he didn't know about, because his ng/mL would be in the 100's or 1000's if he didn't stop weeks before. If YOU use COMMON SENSE THIS IS TRUE, BECAUSE multiple PILLS INCREASE YOUR NANDROLONE LEVEL TO MUCH HIGHER LEVELS THAN 12 ng/mL . *I'm NOT GOING TO RESPOND TO ANY MORE OF jasvll STUPID RESPONSES THAT PROVIDE NO FACTS FOR THE REASON I HAVE PROVED YOU WRONG THREE OR MORE TIMES IN THIS THREAD I CAN COUNT.* First, the Olympic standard, second that BALCO and after BALCO investgation improved steroid testing, third Supplements would spike the test much higher than 12 ng/mL, and probably more times I proved jasvll wrong in this thread.


 Wow, we're really going to have to work on your reasoning skills.

I never argued that the Olympics didn't have a set detection level for Nandrolone metabolites. I argued that Olympic athletes don't have a distinct Nandrolone metabolite level from other people.

As for Balco, I never said what you claimed wasn't true. I asked for a link.

As for the third point, it seems to hinge on the assumption that Sherk had regular drug tests before the state commission administered test, which is an interesting assumption, to say the least.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

PrideFan123 said:


> I have to agree with Boxing>MMA, which is rare. He tested under 6ng on every other test, then gets a 12ng? Looks like his "nutritionist" timed the cycle wrong and got his guy caught. :-/


 Keep in mind, I've only been arguing for the possibility Sherk didn't knowingly ingest a banned substance, not that it's certain or even likely. For some reason, that gets certain people fired up.


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## PrideFan123 (Apr 8, 2007)

jasvll said:


> I've only been arguing for the possibility Sherk didn't knowingly ingest a banned substance, not that it's certain or even likely.


It just sounds like your trying to defend him when you argue a hypothetical that even you say is not certain or even likely.

Whether he knew or not, he's guilty of fighting with 2x the legal amount of nandrolone in his system.


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## scat (Oct 15, 2006)

The absence of evidence

is not

the evidence of absence.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

PrideFan123 said:


> It just sounds like your trying to defend him when you argue a hypothetical that even you say is not certain or even likely.


 There was a time when people valued the notions of habeas corpus and 'innocent until proven guilty.' I see that time has passed.

Did you know the USAPATRIOT Act was recently signed into permanent law, in spite of initial assurances that the sunset clause would return American citizens their 'inalienable' rights once it was 'safe' to do so?

Also, I never said that Sherk not taking Nandrolone was not certain or likely. I said that I hadn't been arguing that it was either. There is a world of difference there.




> Whether he knew or not, he's guilty of fighting with 2x the legal amount of nandrolone in his system.


 If that were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. While 'legal' is an inappropriate term to describe violating athletic commission regulations, Sherk had no Nandrolone in his system. What he had was 2X the allowable limit of Nandrolone metabolites, which may or may not have come from taking Nandrolone itself. 

If this were a court of law, rather than an autonomous commission, Sherk would be found not guilty of taking Nandrolone because there is no direct evidence that he did. The evidence presented so far is purely circumstantial and could never prove 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' that Sherk took Nandrolone. 

That being said, since the commission isn't a court of law, and it's their job to protect the fighters however they see fit, it's perfectly reasonable for them to suspend a rule violating fighter regardless of whether they violated that rule intentionally or not.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

scat said:


> The absence of evidence
> 
> is not
> 
> the evidence of absence.


 I wonder how Sagan felt about 'habeas corpus?'

I would also like to point out that the ability to quote someone who was right doesn't inherently make the quoter right, or any less bent on securing and expanding American global hegemony. :



> "There's another way to phrase that and that is that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. It is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Simply because you do not have evidence that something does exist does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist." -on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction


Donald Rumsfeld Quotes - Funny Rumsfeld Quotations - Rumsfeldisms


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## PrideFan123 (Apr 8, 2007)

jasvll said:


> There was a time when people valued the notions of habeus corpus and 'innocent until proven guilty.' I see that time has passed.


Innocent until proven guilty? It was PROVEN that SHERK was GUILTY of fighting with 2x the MAX amount of NANDROLONE in his system. At this point he is not innocent. You can argue that he was aware or not, but you can't refute the fact he had too much of a regulated substance in his body.



jasvll said:


> Did you know the USAPATRIOT Act was recently signed into permanent law, in spite of initial assurances that the sunset clause would return American citizens their 'inalienable' rights once it was 'safe' to do so?


No I did not know that jasvll. Thank you for that tid bit of information.:confused02:


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

PrideFan123 said:


> Innocent until proven guilty? It was PROVEN that SHERK was GUILTY of fighting with 2x the MAX amount of NANDROLONE in his system. At this point he is not innocent. You can argue that he was aware or not, but you can't refute the fact he had too much of a regulated substance in his body.


 That statement is 100% false and validates my presence in this thread. Sherk had no Nandrolone in his system.




> No I did not know that jasvll. Thank you for that tid bit of information.:confused02:


 The point is that the specific character assassination of Sherk is indicative of how far America has come from the principles it was founded on. We [Americans] not only support our leaders as they tighten the leash, but we apply the same flawed reasoning ourselves. The difference is, the leaders know what they're doing.

Also, I posted earlier before I was finished ranting. Here's what I edited while you were replying:

Also, I never said that Sherk not taking Nandrolone was not certain or likely. I said that I hadn't been arguing that it was either. There is a world of difference there.



> Whether he knew or not, he's guilty of fighting with 2x the legal amount of nandrolone in his system.


If that were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. While 'legal' is an inappropriate term to describe violating athletic commission regulations, Sherk had no Nandrolone in his system. What he had was 2X the allowable limit of Nandrolone metabolites, which may or may not have come from taking Nandrolone itself. 

If this were a court of law, rather than an autonomous commission, Sherk would be found not guilty of taking Nandrolone because there is no direct evidence that he did. The evidence presented so far is purely circumstantial and could never prove 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' that Sherk took Nandrolone. 

That being said, since the commission isn't a court of law, and it's their job to protect the fighters however they see fit, it's perfectly reasonable for them to suspend a rule violating fighter regardless of whether they violated that rule intentionally or not.


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## PrideFan123 (Apr 8, 2007)

So just add metabolites after where I say Nandrolone, and it's not like i'm just pointing to Sherk and calling him a roid head, I'm basing this off the findings of the athletic commission. 

I don't care whether he knew or not, there is a max limit of that substance for a reason and that's because more of it gives you an edge. Sherk fought with an edge and so did Franca, both should be punished accordingly.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

PrideFan123 said:


> So just add metabolites after where I say Nandrolone, and it's not like i'm just pointing to Sherk and calling him a roid head, I'm basing this off the findings of the athletic commission.


 One statement is true. The other is false. One statement proves that Sherk intentionally took peformance enhancing drugs (the false one). The other allows for the possibility that Sherk unintentionally and unknowingly took his nandrolone metabolite levels beyond the allowable threshold (the true one). 

If you can't see the importance of that distinction, then this discussion is pointless.



> I don't care whether he knew or not, there is a max limit of that substance for a reason and that's because more of it gives you an edge. Sherk fought with an edge and so did Franca, both should be punished accordingly.


 You'll find I've said that multiple times and never once said otherwise. Most recently, I've said that in the last two posts.


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## PrideFan123 (Apr 8, 2007)

Glad we're seeing eye to eye. I'm not going to try and disprove you over whether or not he intentionally took them. It can't be proved one way or the other by either of us. I'll grant you that it's a possibility, but there are other hypotheticals too that i'm sure you could conjure up that are just as unlikely and have just as little evidence to support them.


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## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

PrideFan123 said:


> Glad we're seeing eye to eye. I'm not going to try and disprove you over whether or not he intentionally took them. It can't be proved one way or the other by either of us. I'll grant you that it's a possibility,


 And at last we reach the end of our discussion.



> but there are other hypotheticals too that i'm sure you could conjure up that are just as unlikely and have just as little evidence to support them.


 But wait, he tries to bait me in to going another round. :thumb02: 

(That was a joke. No más.)


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