# Cain vs Fedor



## geauxtigers07 (Oct 26, 2009)

How well does Cain match up against Fedor? Just asking


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## unclehulka13 (Nov 17, 2008)

geauxtigers07 said:


> How well does Cain match up against Fedor? Just asking


rofl.
As soon as Cain takes fedor down, fedor by armbar.


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## diablo5597 (Nov 12, 2008)

Fedor would kill him standing and on the ground he's a bit too experienced for Cain. I'd say Fedor by t/ko or submission.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

geauxtigers07 said:


> How well does Cain match up against Fedor? Just asking


Well, Cain's not the best wrestler Fedor's beaten (not even close).

He's not the best striker Fedor's beaten. (doesn't make the top five)

And his jiu-jitsu isn't even as good as a lot of the guys Fedor's submitted... So, not really well.

I could go into detail (and I will if people want me to), but I think it's sufficient to say the Fedor's the number one fighter in the world and Velasquez isn't top ten. That speaks for itself.


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## ZaoSyn (Aug 22, 2007)

I disagree.. I do believe (IMO) Cain is top 10. But your post pretty much sums it up so I can't argue it. Fedor via submission IMO.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

geauxtigers07 said:


> How well does Cain match up against Fedor? Just asking


Fedor via stare down.


Don't get me wrong. I really like Cain, but... Fedor is unbeatable.


And as hard as that is to say about any fighter, some fighters do get to that level at some point in their careers.


Fedor is there. No one can possibly stop him. Not Carwin, not Lesnar, not Cain, not Mir, not Fedor two years ago.

No one.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

ZaoSyn said:


> I disagree.. I do believe (IMO) Cain is top 10. But your post pretty much sums it up so I can't argue it. Fedor via submission IMO.


Yeah, see, I'm a little elitest in this respect. A panel I work with conducts a monthly poll of professional writers to come up with rankings, and I'm one of the guys who calculates the ballots, so I spend a lot of time dealing with people's opinions.

I've got to say, I don't think there's any argument for calling Cain a top ten heavyweight. Not with the landscape of the heavyweight division right now.

He's top ten in the UFC, maybe, but not in the world. I can't rank him higher than seven in the UFC (behind [1] Brock, [2] Mir, [3] Nogueira, [4] Carwin, [5] Couture, [6] Dos Santos), and with Fedor, Rogers and Overeem (not to mention Werdum, Arlovski and a few others) all unarguably ahead of him as well, he drops off that list for me.


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## sutemiwaza4tw (Sep 18, 2009)

Tomislav III said:


> Fedor via stare down.


If not, then kimura rd. 1.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

I find the replies in this thread very refreshing. 

I think as far as Valesquez matchups go, how about prime Randleman vs Valesquez? Suplex city!


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## callme1 (Aug 15, 2009)

is this a real question? fedor would buttrape the man


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

IronMan said:


> I could go into detail (and I will if people want me to), but I think it's sufficient to say the Fedor's the number one fighter in the world and *Velasquez isn't top ten*. That speaks for itself.


No need to go into details about the actual match up, but Im curious who are the 10 guys you would rank above Velasquez atm? top 5 is easy enough to list, but Im guessing you still rank Barnett top 10 (personally I want him to get another big win and not fail a steroid test before I rank him at all), got both Werdum and Overeem above him somehow and rank Carwin, Rogers and JDS all above him even though those 4 got pretty much identical records with each other.

I got him about 8th-10th overall personally and I really can't come up with 10 names to rank above him unless we include alot of mma math and assuming person X could beat person Y if they fought -scenarios.

I agree that Fedor atleast for now would beat him. His wrestling isn't anything Fedor hasn't seen before and he doesn't have a size for example Brock has to go with that wrestling for additional problems.


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## callme1 (Aug 15, 2009)

Diokhan said:


> No need to go into details about the actual match up, but Im curious who are the 10 guys you would rank above Velasquez atm? top 5 is easy enough to list, but Im guessing you still rank Barnett top 10 (personally I want him to get another big win and not fail a steroid test before I rank him at all), got both Werdum and Overeem above him somehow and rank Carwin, Rogers and JDS all above him even though those 4 got pretty much identical records with each other.
> 
> I got him about 8th-10th overall personally and I really can't come up with 10 names to rank above him unless we include alot of mma math and assuming person X could beat person Y if they fought -scenarios.
> 
> I agree that Fedor atleast for now would beat him. His wrestling isn't anything Fedor hasn't seen before and he doesn't have a size for example Brock has to go with that wrestling for additional problems.


for me uhm,,

1.brock
2.mir
3.nog
4.carwin
5.randy
6.dos santos and thn you have rogers and fedor..arlovski still ranks above him i think...overeem 2.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

unclehulka13 said:


> rofl.
> As soon as Cain takes fedor down, fedor by armbar.


I crack up whenever I hear this. I took Fedor 10 minutes to armbar (americana I believe) Mark Hunt after grappling with him almost the entire round. And yet Cain is going to get nailed the moment they hit the ground? You really think Hunt is superior on the ground to Cain? 

Cain is a terrible match up for Fedor. Fedor wouldn't win a round.


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## Tacx0911 (Aug 12, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Cain is a terrible match up for Fedor. Fedor wouldn't win a round.


How will Cain defeat Fedor? Seriously, I want to know how? I bet Brock wouldn't win a round against Fedor.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Tomislav III said:


> Fedor via stare down.
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I really like Cain, but... Fedor is unbeatable.
> ...


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Tacx0911 said:


> How will Cain defeat Fedor? Seriously, I want to know how? I bet Brock wouldn't win a round against Fedor.


Alrighty, let me take a shot at this. 

They meet in the center of the ring and touch gloves. Fedor explodes into an attack much like that against Tim Sylvia. He scores a few shots, but Cain doesn't seem fazed. He thinks to himself, wow, this guy doesn't even hit as hard as Kongo. So he decides to stand up with him for a bit and lands a couple of his own shots and then shoots a single. Fedor tries to defend, but lifts his leg high and sweeps the other foot and gets the take down and lands in sidemount. Fedor immediately gets to half guard and starts to work for an armbar, but notices that Cain is a little tougher that Mike Hunt and ends up taking several elbows to the head. The mma world is utterly stunned. They immediately start speculating that Dana may have poisoned Fedor before the fight. Or that Cain was greasing. Cain continues to pound away. Fedor manages to get up, and Cain immediately takes him back down. this repeats 2 more times. End of round 1.

Rounds 2 and 3 are the same with Fedor utterly gassed at the end. Unanimous decision for Cain. mmaforum.com and all other forums crash for 3 days.

Something like that.


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## Tacx0911 (Aug 12, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Alrighty, let me take a shot at this.
> 
> They meet in the center of the ring and touch gloves. Fedor explodes into an attack much like that against Tim Sylvia. He scores a few shots, but Cain doesn't seem fazed. He thinks to himself, wow, this guy doesn't even hit as hard as Kongo. So he decides to stand up with him for a bit and lands a couple of his own shots and then shoots a single. Fedor tries to defend, but lifts his leg high and sweeps the other foot and gets the take down and lands in sidemount. Fedor immediately gets to half guard and starts to work for an armbar, but notices that Cain is a little tougher that Mike Hunt and ends up taking several elbows to the head. The mma world is utterly stunned. They immediately start speculating that Dana may have poisoned Fedor before the fight. Or that Cain was greasing. Cain continues to pound away. Fedor manages to get up, and Cain immediately takes him back down. this repeats 2 more times. End of round 1.
> 
> ...


Wow...LMAO...:smoke01:


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## sutemiwaza4tw (Sep 18, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Alrighty, let me take a shot at this.
> 
> They meet in the center of the ring and touch gloves. Fedor explodes into an attack much like that against Tim Sylvia. He scores a few shots, but Cain doesn't seem fazed. He thinks to himself, wow, this guy doesn't even hit as hard as Kongo. So he decides to stand up with him for a bit and lands a couple of his own shots and then shoots a single. Fedor tries to defend, but lifts his leg high and sweeps the other foot and gets the take down and lands in sidemount. Fedor immediately gets to half guard and starts to work for an armbar, but notices that Cain is a little tougher that Mike Hunt and ends up taking several elbows to the head. The mma world is utterly stunned. They immediately start speculating that Dana may have poisoned Fedor before the fight. Or that Cain was greasing. Cain continues to pound away. Fedor manages to get up, and Cain immediately takes him back down. this repeats 2 more times. End of round 1.
> 
> ...


Someone has a crush on Mr. Brown Pride.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Diokhan said:


> No need to go into details about the actual match up, but Im curious who are the 10 guys you would rank above Velasquez atm? top 5 is easy enough to list, but Im guessing you still rank Barnett top 10 (personally I want him to get another big win and not fail a steroid test before I rank him at all), got both Werdum and Overeem above him somehow and rank Carwin, Rogers and JDS all above him even though those 4 got pretty much identical records with each other.


Our rankings are published every month, so you can see what the consensus is.

I'm not allowed to discuss votes, but I can tell you that there are *a lot* of guys that do better than Cain in voting.

Right now, the standard top ten we have listed is:

1. Fedor Emelianenko (30-1, 1 No Contest)
2. Brock Lesnar (4-1)
3. Frank Mir (12-4)
4. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (32-5-1, 1 No Contest)
5. Shane Carwin (11-0)
6. Brett Rogers (10-0)
7. Randy Couture (16-10)
8. Alistair Overeem (29-11, 1 No Contest)
9. Junior dos Santos (9-1)
10. Fabricio Werdum (12-4-1)

The order is debatable, but I don't think the names are. All of those guys are objectively more accomplished than Cain Velasquez. Frankly, so are a few other guys inside and outside of the UFC.



Calminian said:


> I crack up whenever I hear this. I took Fedor 10 minutes to armbar (americana I believe) Mark Hunt after grappling with him almost the entire round. And yet Cain is going to get nailed the moment they hit the ground? You really think Hunt is superior on the ground to Cain?
> 
> Cain is a terrible match up for Fedor. Fedor wouldn't win a round.





Calminian said:


> Alrighty, let me take a shot at this.
> 
> They meet in the center of the ring and touch gloves. Fedor explodes into an attack much like that against Tim Sylvia. He scores a few shots, but Cain doesn't seem fazed. He thinks to himself, wow, this guy doesn't even hit as hard as Kongo. So he decides to stand up with him for a bit and lands a couple of his own shots and then shoots a single. Fedor tries to defend, but lifts his leg high and sweeps the other foot and gets the take down and lands in sidemount. Fedor immediately gets to half guard and starts to work for an armbar, but notices that Cain is a little tougher that Mike Hunt and ends up taking several elbows to the head. The mma world is utterly stunned. They immediately start speculating that Dana may have poisoned Fedor before the fight. Or that Cain was greasing. Cain continues to pound away. Fedor manages to get up, and Cain immediately takes him back down. this repeats 2 more times. End of round 1.
> 
> ...


You think that Cain would be able to take Fedor down?

You're an idiot.

Fedor outwrestled Coleman and schooled him standing for a round. Coleman is a much, much better wrestler than Velasquez.

Not to mention Velasquez has never beaten a BJJ blackbelt. In fact, he's never fought a guy with decent submissions in his entire career. I like Camarillo, but the level of Jiu-Jitsu that Cain's getting at AKA isn't enough to help him compete with someone like Fedor on the ground.

You're welcome to reduce Fedor's entire performance to the fight with Hunt if you think that his fight with a 5'10, 260 pound Kiwi with no elbows is at all indicative of what would happen in a fight with a guy who has a radically different style and background.

Not to mention, the combined time it's taken Fedor to submit three wrestlers with superior backgrounds to Velasquez (Coleman, when actually looking for the armbar in the first fight, Randleman and Lindland): 6:42.

Cain's submission defense and top control are ok, but if you watch tape of the Randleman fight and see how easily Fedor reverses Randleman with basic judo, it's hard to imagine that Velasquez would do any better.

As for the cardio component, have you ever seen Fedor get tired? The guy can fight off his back, spend the whole time throwing punches from the top, spend the fight in the clinch, or just stand and move, and he isn't tired afterwards.

Why?

Because his ***** and judo training prepares him to go through a half dozen matches a day, and he doesn't get emotional or worried and doesn't expend emotional energy.

So, I don't see any part of criticism as valid. The fact is, Velasquez is the third best fighter with his gameplan that the UFC has to offer Fedor (both Lesnar and Carwin can execute the same gameplan, much better). That's why I don't see Velasquez ever claiming a UFC heavyweight title, and why I don't see him ever climbing into position to be regularly compared to Fedor.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Well it depends entirely on cain. If he stands with fedor he'll get knocked out, if he goes to the ground with fedor he'll get submitted, however if he can overpower fedor in the clinch and hold him against the fence for 15minutes... With these judges, he may just have a chance.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

I agree that Coleman is a much better wrestler then Cain, but i think they have pretty different styles (ive never been a wrestler, so correct me if im wrong). Coleman is a big strong dude that has good technique and (at least used to) could muscle people around. Cain seems to keep a pretty frenetic pace, constantly working and in your face. I think it would be insane to bet on Cain against Fedor, but it would be an interesting fight to watch. I dont know if Fedor has ever fought another heavyweight that keeps as busy as Cain does.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

joshua7789 said:


> I agree that Coleman is a much better wrestler then Cain, but i think they have pretty different styles (ive never been a wrestler, so correct me if im wrong). Coleman is a big strong dude that has good technique and (at least used to) could muscle people around. Cain seems to keep a pretty frenetic pace, constantly working and in your face.


That's a legitimate assessment of their MMA games, but their wrestling is very much the same. It's textbook folkstyle wrestling. The clinc work is similar, the control of the legs and the matwork tendencies are exactly the same.

That's what will get Cain into trouble.



> I think it would be insane to bet on Cain against Fedor, but it would be an interesting fight to watch. I dont know if Fedor has ever fought another heavyweight that keeps as busy as Cain does.


I don't know about that. Randleman was a freak in that he kept busy, and that didn't end well.

Sometimes, aggression is the worst thing you can bring to the table against Fedor. If Velasquez thinks he can keep Fedor up against the cage, best of luck to him, but I think the reality is that Cain makes mistakes, and if you make those kinds of mistakes against Fedor, you're going to get in trouble.


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## UltraMax (Oct 24, 2009)

This would not even be a contest.


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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

xeberus said:


> Well it depends entirely on cain. If he stands with fedor he'll get knocked out, if he goes to the ground with fedor he'll get submitted, however if he can overpower fedor in the clinch and hold him against the fence for 15minutes... With these judges, he may just have a chance.


Forgettin about Fedor's Judo?


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## cdnbaron (Jan 17, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Right now, the standard top ten we have listed is:
> 
> 1. Fedor Emelianenko (30-1, 1 No Contest)
> 2. Brock Lesnar (4-1)
> ...


The fact that you say Cain isn't even top 10 while you have Carwin at #5 and Rogers at #6 is laughable. Carwin has 1 good win (Gonzaga) and Rogers has one good win (Arlovski). Cain has that win (Kongo is about level with Gonzaga rankings-wise) and now a win against Rothwell (another top 15-20 guy).

Out of rising crop of HWs (Cain, Carwin, Rogers, JDS), Cain has the most high quality wins (sorry JDS and Cro Cop fans, but Cro Cop doesn't count as a quality win anymore).

For educated MMA journalists, your objective rankings really make no sense at all.


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## AmRiT (Apr 23, 2007)

Cain is definitely a top 10 HW. He would give Fedor a good match, he has never looked to be in any trouble in terms of being submitted, so what makes everyone so sure Fedor can sub him?


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

cdnbaron said:


> The fact that you say Cain isn't even top 10 while you have Carwin at #5 and Rogers at #6 is laughable. Carwin has 1 good win (Gonzaga) and Rogers has one good win (Arlovski). Cain has that win (Kongo is about level with Gonzaga rankings-wise) and now a win against Rothwell (another top 15-20 guy).


Apart from the fact that both Rogers and Carwin have substantially better records than Velasquez, and are considered legitimate challengers to the #1 and #2 fighters in the world (respectively), while Velasquez is not in a position to challenge either Brock or Fedor, here's why you're wrong:

Carwin and Rogers are superior to Velasquez based on the quality of their wins.

All three have fought and beaten relatively the same level of competition (though I think Arlovski a level above Kongo and Gonzaga), but there's a qualitative difference in the wins:

Velasquez beat Kongo by decision, and he took two rounds beating Ben Rothwell.

Carwin hasn't fought an opponent he couldn't starch. He did to Gonzaga (and Wellisch, for that matter) what Cain has been completely unable to do in his entire UFC career: finish with one punch. That's a club that Cain doesn't have in the bag.

The same is true for Rogers.

What Rogers did to Arlovski (who was top ten at the time), Cain has never done to a fighter in his UFC career.

The fact is, if Cain were a top ten guy, he wouldn't have needed to take a beatable Kongo the distance. Big Ben and Denis Stojnic wouldn't have made it out of the first round.



> Out of rising crop of HWs (Cain, Carwin, Rogers, JDS), Cain has the most high quality wins (sorry JDS and Cro Cop fans, but Cro Cop doesn't count as a quality win anymore).


That's bullsh*t, as previously noted.

Cain's beaten solid guys, but he's not decimating people. In fact, he hasn't really smashed an opponent the way Carwin does since he fought Jake O'Brien. Carwin and Rogers show up and absolutely destroy their opponents. That's an important qualitative difference, and it matters.



> For educated MMA journalists, your objective rankings really make no sense at all.


Again, you're welcome to look at the list of guys on there. As far as they go, they're the best out there. The fact that none of these guys are willing to rank Cain higher than 10 (and only two or three, on a good month, are willing to slip him on their ballot at all) speaks to where Cain is in the world right now.

Until Cain starts developing some really sophisticated grappling or some truly devastating striking, he'll continue to be the low-calorie version of Shane Carwin and Brock Lesnar (both superior wrestlers with heavier hands, executing the same gameplan, only better).


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## streetpunk08 (Jul 15, 2006)

In a couple years this would be a good match but right now Cain is a little too green for someone like Fedor


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Fedor by force push.


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## DrHouse (Aug 1, 2009)

Striking, Fedor wins. On the ground, Emelianenko. From the feet to the ground, Cain (probably). Fedor has a solid chin and Velasquez doesn't hit hard, Velasquez can take a hit too but I still think Fedor could knock him out. Emelianenko has dealt with better wrestlers in the past and he's submitted them. Cain held down Kongo and Rothwell, 2 fighters not known for their ground games. So the only advantage Cain has does nothing but turn into a disadvantage. Fedor by Submission (Armbar).


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Cain isnt ready for Fedor yet. 

Imo he can TD Fedor but he'd lose the stand-up handily (possibly get KOd) and I haven't seen enough of his jitz defense against a great grappler so I don't know if he can nullify Fedor's very active and dangerous guard. 

He's got the potential to become a top HW though depending on how well his striking comes along.


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## cdnbaron (Jan 17, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Apart from the fact that both Rogers and Carwin have substantially better records than Velasquez


Based on what, the fact that they have 10 and 11 wins as opposed to 7 (6 at the time of those rankings, I assume). You should know better than that. Anyone's record can be inflated by fighting lesser fighters.



> and are considered legitimate challengers to the #1 and #2 fighters in the world (respectively), while Velasquez is not in a position to challenge either Brock or Fedor, here's why you're wrong:


Carwin is a legitimate contender to Brock, I'll give you that. But nobody really gives Rogers more than a puncher's chance against Fedor, so calling him a legitimate challenger (especially when there are more talented guys out there, like Werdum and Overeem) is a bit of a stretch. Also, why exactly is Cain not in a position to challenge Brock? He was just slated to fight the guy Brock is now fighting before the UFC jumped on their "Ooh, you gave an impressive performance so we're throwing you a title shot" bandwagon again.



> Carwin and Rogers are superior to Velasquez based on the quality of their wins.
> 
> All three have fought and beaten relatively the same level of competition (though I think Arlovski a level above Kongo and Gonzaga), but there's a qualitative difference in the wins:
> 
> ...


Wow.

So what you're saying is that finishing a fight in the first round is the only dominant way to win? You know that's crap.

Carwin struggled just as much with Gonzaga (getting rocked and taken down) as Cain did with Kongo. And trying to take anything away from the Rogers fight other than the fact that Rogers has power and Arlovski has a glass chin is useless. 22 seconds isn't enough to make any reasonable conclusions about fighters other than the ones I just pointed out.

Also, I would have expected you to do a little research before making such ridiculous claims. All of Cain's _unimpressive_ victories (Kongo and Stojnic, I'll save Rothwell for later) have come against guys who are very difficult to stop. Kongo has only been stopped once in his career, by Gilbert Yvel who is one of the most explosive strikers ever in MMA's HW division. Stojnic had never been stopped before his fight against Cain.

How again do those fights reflect poorly on Cain?

As for Rothwell, everyone I've talked to agrees that fight could have been stopped in the first round pretty easily, so I don't even know what you're getting at by bringing this fight up since Cain completely dominated Rothwell for 6 minutes unlike any fighter has been able to before.

That fact that Cain can dominate fighters so thoroughly through technique and speed, rather than power is what makes him different than most HWs.

I don't understand how the ability to end a fight quickly (which Cain has shown by the way, through accumulation of blows) supercedes all else in terms of rankings.

On the flipside, the guys who Carwin and Rogers have _oh so impressively_ dispatched are not nearly as durable. Gonzaga had lost three times prior to the Carwin fight... all by T/KO. Arlovski had lost 6 times in his career prior to the Rogers fight... 5 of them by T/KO.

And Rogers struggled putting away Abongo Humphrey, does that take away from his standing in your eyes? Because it should if the same applies to Cain.

Perhaps if you had some common opponents in this point it could work in your favour, but even then you're introducing a rather silly concept into rankings. A stoppage does not equal a dominant performance, or even a more dominant performance than a decision does. And an earlier stoppage does not equal a more dominant performance than a later stoppage.



> Again, you're welcome to look at the list of guys on there. As far as they go, they're the best out there. The fact that none of these guys are willing to rank Cain higher than 10 (and only two or three, on a good month, are willing to slip him on their ballot at all) speaks to where Cain is in the world right now.
> 
> Until Cain starts developing some really sophisticated grappling or some truly devastating striking, he'll continue to be the low-calorie version of Shane Carwin and Brock Lesnar (both superior wrestlers with heavier hands, executing the same gameplan, only better).


First off, because your writers choose to not rank a guy doesn't speak towards his skills as a fighter or his standing in his division.

Second, calling Cain the low-calorie version of any other HW fighter is hilarious to me, because he brings a skill-set unlike most other HWs today. In the era of the giant HWs, Cain is a smaller guy who places more of a focus on speed and technique than simply relying on the fact that he's really really big so he can hit really really hard.

Also, I disagree that Cain is a lesser wrestler than Brock and Carwin (and I know you're going to bring up their age-old NCAA credentials, but you really don't need to bother). In terms of MMA application, Cain has shown much more diverse wrestling than Brock and Shane combined. He's faster on his shots and has a wider variety of takedowns than either of those guys.

Also, once on the ground, Cain is far more active than either Brock and Carwin (who like to establish a semi-dominant position and once again rely on their power). Cain is much more fluid in transition, and once again much faster than Brock or Shane. Cain wears people out, whereas Lesnar and Carwin don't have the luxury of outworking people, if they don't finish it (and finish it early in most cases) they're in trouble.

All this is really irrelevant though, because rankings aren't based on potential, they're based on accomplishment, and the facts are the Cain has accomplished more than both Carwin or Rogers, and I really don't see how arguing semantics over "Oh, he went to decision and they finished" in any way puts them ahead of Cain.

EDIT: And I just thought I'd let you know that ranking people based on their next opponent is just a foolish foolish thing to do.

People tried that one with Leites and Cote as top 10 MWs and nobody bought it then. Nobody is buying now that Carwin and Rogers are essentially top 5 HWs.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

cdnbaron said:


> Based on what, the fact that they have 10 and 11 wins as opposed to 7 (6 at the time of those rankings, I assume). You should know better than that. Anyone's record can be inflated by fighting lesser fighters.
> 
> Carwin is a legitimate contender to Brock, I'll give you that. But nobody really gives Rogers more than a puncher's chance against Fedor, so calling him a legitimate challenger (especially when there are more talented guys out there, like Werdum and Overeem) is a bit of a stretch. Also, why exactly is Cain not in a position to challenge Brock? He was just slated to fight the guy Brock is now fighting before the UFC jumped on their "Ooh, you gave an impressive performance so we're throwing you a title shot" bandwagon again.


I don't think Werdum or Overeem present even a puncher's threat against Fedor, but that's neither here nor there.

Apart from the fact that the Carwin vs. Lesnar fight is off (I'm just going to assume you knew that and the phrasing was just weird), there are a lot of reasons why Cain shouldn't get a title shot right now, ranging from the things he hasn't done, like stop a top twenty fighter or demonstrate that he can beat a BJJ blackbelt (which is a serious thing for wrestlers looking to be called top five fighter in the UFC) to the things he can't do, which include outwrestling Brock and Shane and stopping an opponent with one punch (which is an important skill given that Cain's not the best wrestler in the division).



> So what you're saying is that finishing a fight in the first round is the only dominant way to win? You know that's crap.
> 
> Carwin struggled just as much with Gonzaga (getting rocked and taken down) as Cain did with Kongo. And trying to take anything away from the Rogers fight other than the fact that Rogers has power and Arlovski has a glass chin is useless. 22 seconds isn't enough to make any reasonable conclusions about fighters other than the ones I just pointed out.


I'm not saying winning in the first is the only way to put on a great performance. Some fighter's put on their best performances without finishing, but Cain hasn't put on his best performances and he hasn't finished quickly.

Carwin was losing the fight with Gonzaga, and when he had the opportunity to land his shot, that was the end of the fight. The fact that Cain can't turn a fight that quickly, especially given how good both Carwin and Brock are at it, is definitely going to present a long term problem.



> Also, I would have expected you to do a little research before making such ridiculous claims. All of Cain's _unimpressive_ victories (Kongo and Stojnic, I'll save Rothwell for later) have come against guys who are very difficult to stop. Kongo has only been stopped once in his career, by Gilbert Yvel who is one of the most explosive strikers ever in MMA's HW division. Stojnic had never been stopped before his fight against Cain.
> 
> How again do those fights reflect poorly on Cain?


They don't reflect poorly on Cain. But they don't show he's a top ten fighter.



> As for Rothwell, everyone I've talked to agrees that fight could have been stopped in the first round pretty easily, so I don't even know what you're getting at by bringing this fight up since Cain completely dominated Rothwell for 6 minutes unlike any fighter has been able to before.


That's absolutely fair. He beat Rothwell badly, and it was a good performance.

But stepping in against a guy who's been out for ten months doesn't really make him look great, in my opinion.

If Cain is going to move into the top ten now (and I just have one vote, so it may happen), it will be because he beat Rothwell, and people think Rothwell is good (because, it turns out, Rothwell is good).



> That fact that Cain can dominate fighters so thoroughly through technique and speed, rather than power is what makes him different than most HWs.
> 
> I don't understand how the ability to end a fight quickly (which Cain has shown by the way, through accumulation of blows) supercedes all else in terms of rankings.


It doesn't _supersede_ all else. But it does matter.

Cain's fast and technical, but he's going to have a lot of issues handling experienced wrestlers and heavy handed strikers (and, while he fought a much bigger Ben Rothwell, don't make the mistake of thinking Rothwell is anywhere near as big, as athletic or as technically savvy as Carwin or Rogers).



> On the flipside, the guys who Carwin and Rogers have _oh so impressively_ dispatched are not nearly as durable. Gonzaga had lost three times prior to the Carwin fight... all by T/KO. Arlovski had lost 6 times in his career prior to the Rogers fight... 5 of them by T/KO.
> 
> And Rogers struggled putting away Abongo Humphrey, does that take away from his standing in your eyes? Because it should if the same applies to Cain.


Had either Gonzaga or Arlovski ever been beaten like they were by Carwin and Rogers (respectively)? No. Not as far as I'm concerned.

And, yes. Roger's performance against Abongo does take away from his standing, in my opinion.

Like Cain and Carwin, he hit a stumbling block (and actually almost got knocked out with a few tough head kicks). And that definitely offers an indication of where he is in his professional development. Also, the fact that Abongo is a lightheavyweight who fought about 40 pounds above the weight he should, ideally, be competing at takes away from Rogers, in my opinion.

Still, what should have been the toughest fight of Rogers career was a domination. And, while Kongo is much tougher than Humphrey, in their two tests, Rogers looked much better. He knew how to use the clinch to deal damage without taking it and he knew how to use his weight effectively.



> Second, calling Cain the low-calorie version of any other HW fighter is hilarious to me, because he brings a skill-set unlike most other HWs today. In the era of the giant HWs, Cain is a smaller guy who places more of a focus on speed and technique than simply relying on the fact that he's really really big so he can hit really really hard.


That wasn't reductive of Carwin and Brock's games at all.

Cain puts focus on speed, for sure, but his technique isn't better than Carwin's in terms of standup. Frankly, I think Shane's grappling game is better than Cain's, too, but we haven't seen as much of Cain's.

Also, when Brock shows up for pure grappling and submits a BJJ world champion like Gabe Gonzaga, it does make me change my generally anti-Brock tone. His grappling certainly seems to be improving.



> Also, I disagree that Cain is a lesser wrestler than Brock and Carwin (and I know you're going to bring up their age-old NCAA credentials, but you really don't need to bother). In terms of MMA application, Cain has shown much more diverse wrestling than Brock and Shane combined. He's faster on his shots and has a wider variety of takedowns than either of those guys.


O.K. You're entitled to think that.

From a technical standpoint, I'll happily get into the things that Cain doesn't do that a guy with Lesnar's background would never miss, but it's kind of redundant.

We haven't seen Lesnar wrestle a whole lot in MMA. The same is true for Carwin. They like to throw the bombs, then follow it up with matwork if they have to (Shane, generally, doesn't).



> Also, once on the ground, Cain is far more active than either Brock and Carwin (who like to establish a semi-dominant position and once again rely on their power). Cain is much more fluid in transition, and once again much faster than Brock or Shane. Cain wears people out, whereas Lesnar and Carwin don't have the luxury of outworking people, if they don't finish it (and finish it early in most cases) they're in trouble.


Again, I can get into all of the things Cain does wrong on the ground (and there are plenty), but that's redundant.

The fact that Carwin was able to work his way back to guard against a 250 pound BJJ world champion after getting nearly knocked out is incredibly impressive, and if you watch his fight with Neil Wain, there's a technical and simple half guard pass and classic BJJ position advancement.

I've been a pretty staunch critic of Lesnar's grappling. I'll say that I do think Cain is technically better on the ground then Lesnar, but if Cain and Lesnar were grappling, I'd pick Lesnar every time.



> All this is really irrelevant though, because rankings aren't based on potential, they're based on accomplishment, and the facts are the Cain has accomplished more than both Carwin or Rogers, and I really don't see how arguing semantics over "Oh, he went to decision and they finished" in any way puts them ahead of Cain.
> 
> EDIT: And I just thought I'd let you know that ranking people based on their next opponent is just a foolish foolish thing to do.
> 
> People tried that one with Leites and Cote as top 10 MWs and nobody bought it then. Nobody is buying now that Carwin and Rogers are essentially top 5 HWs.


Yup. Because winning a decision against Cheick Kongo, who's never fought for a UFC title, is the same as beating a former UFC champion and top ten fighter (which Andrei was at the time) in under thirty seconds. Beating Ben Rothwell is totally the same as stopping a former top contender in under two minutes.

Leites (who'd won five straight, including a decision over Nate Marquardt) was definitely top ten going into the fight with Anderson, and had been for a while. But I agree about Cote.

That said, I never get dispute about Rogers and Carwin in the top ten. Overeem is a general complaint, and every once in a while people talk about Randy or Werdum, but those top six are pretty consistent.


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## AmRiT (Apr 23, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Apart from the fact that both Rogers and Carwin have substantially better records than Velasquez, and are considered legitimate challengers to the #1 and #2 fighters in the world (respectively), while Velasquez is not in a position to challenge either Brock or Fedor, here's why you're wrong:
> 
> Carwin and Rogers are superior to Velasquez based on the quality of their wins.
> 
> ...


LMAO... you base your rankings on a fighters KO power? That is laughable...

GSP couldn't TKO Alves, does that make his victory not dominating? Hell no. He dominated Alves from the first to the final round, as he did with Fitch. Cain has done the same with some of his past opponent, dominating an opponent for 15/25 mins is just as impressive as KO'ing someone, if not more impressive.

Machida is no. 1 (LHW) on your list, he rarely finishes his opponents. Okami is no. 4 (MW) on your list, he rarely finishes his opponents. Fitch is no.2 (WW) on your list, the last time he finished and opponent was over 2 years ago.

Your logic is extremely flawed


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

AmRiT said:


> LMAO... you base your rankings on a fighters KO power? That is laughable...
> 
> GSP couldn't TKO Alves, does that make his victory not dominating? Hell no. He dominated Alves from the first to the final round, as he did with Fitch. Cain has done the same with some of his past opponent, dominating an opponent for 15/25 mins is just as impressive as KO'ing someone, if not more impressive.
> 
> ...


I suppose I should make this clear. I don't base the rankings on anything. The rankings are based on the collective opinions of fifteen professional MMA journalists.

Machida and GSP are #1 on the list because their #1 in their divisions. There are reasons. They have nothing to do with finishing power.

Cain is not on the list because almost nobody ranked him. One of the reasons almost nobody ranked him is because his performances aren't that impressive.

My logic isn't connected to the rankings. I don't consider Okami a top five fighter. I don't rank him in the top five. Other people think he's a top five fighter, so he ends up there anyway. Though I imagine that will change after the Sonnen fight.


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## AmRiT (Apr 23, 2007)

IronMan said:


> I suppose I should make this clear. I don't base the rankings on anything. The rankings are based on the collective opinions of fifteen professional MMA journalists.
> 
> Machida and GSP are #1 on the list because their #1 in their divisions. There are reasons. They have nothing to do with finishing power.
> 
> ...


The thing is, Cain has been impressive...

His recovery/heart was excellent, his chin is also excellent, the shots he took from Kongo could have finished many fighters... He then dominated Kongo, who at the time was a top 10 fighter

He then beat, no dominated/destroyed Rothwell, who is considered a top 15 HW.

He also showed a lot of strengh and technique in rag dolling Rothwell, who is 4 inches taller and 40 pounds heavier, how you and your 'proffesional MMA Journalists' can say he wasn't impressive amazes me.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

I can't tell which is stupider... thinking Valesquez of all people has a shot in any kind of combat sport against Fedor, or arguing with IronMan about RANKINGS, for godssake. That's like a middle schooler arguing with a grad school professor over an english paper.


Although... how the hell does Carwin get put above Rogers?

Comparing their two "big" fights, Rogers dominated a top 10 (even top 5 to some) Arlovski in 45 seconds, Carwin got beat up by Gonzaga (not even top 10, maybe not top 15) and taken down, then KO'd him.


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## AmRiT (Apr 23, 2007)

Gonzaga wasn't top 10? LOL

Arlovski's chin is weak, fact. Rogers would get destroyed by Cain or Carwin, fact.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

AmRiT said:


> Gonzaga wasn't top 10? LOL
> 
> Arlovski's chin is weak, fact. Rogers would get destroyed by Cain or Carwin, fact.



Beating Justin McCully and Josh Hendricks makes you a top ten? You have zero credibility at this point. And Cain or Carwin would beat Rogers? That's a tough call, but Rogers is bigger, wants it bad, and is ready to knock heads off. He's a threat to anyone, the definition of "puncher's chance."

Arlovski had just finished beating Marcio Cruz, Werdum (WHO BEAT GONZAGA), Ben Rothwell and Roy Nelson. Give me a break, you're going to pretend Gonzaga was anywhere near Arlovski's level. Are you forgetting Arlovski was a UFC Champ?


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> Beating Justin McCully and Josh Hendricks makes you a top ten? You have zero credibility at this point. And Cain or Carwin would beat Rogers? That's a tough call, but Rogers is bigger, wants it bad, and is ready to knock heads off. He's a threat to anyone, the definition of "puncher's chance."
> 
> Arlovski had just finished beating Marcio Cruz, Werdum (WHO BEAT GONZAGA), Ben Rothwell and Roy Nelson. Give me a break, you're going to pretend Gonzaga was anywhere near Arlovski's level. Are you forgetting Arlovski was a UFC Champ?


I think Carwin would try to stand with Rogers and get put to sleep, Cain would do the smart thing and put him on his back for the better part of three rounds. Also, I agree, how the hell do you rank Gonzaga anywhere near Arlovski? The guy was 2-2 in his last four when he fought Carwin, with those 2 wins coming over complete cans. Arlovski had beaten all legit competition up until he lost to Fedor.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

If Rogers is top 10 then Cain is *for sure* top 10.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

You are correct, sir, IMHO.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

You seriously rank Brett Rogers at 6th? What the hell? Who has he beaten aside from Arlovski?


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Biowza said:


> You seriously rank Brett Rogers at 6th? What the hell? Who has he beaten aside from Arlovski?


You think that's outrageous, Carwin is ranked #5! Who the hell has he beaten? It's like his ranking went up when they put him against Lesnar. By that logic, if I schedule a fight with Fedor, I'm #2? Keep in mind that guys like Mir and Carwin have beaten mostly cans too.

We have to accept the world HW division is weak. Rogers has beaten more people impressively than anyone below him in the rankings (and some people, like Carwin, above him). Who has JDS beat? Who has Werdum beat recently? Who has Overeem or Valesquez beat?

The only guys in the HW division right now that have consistently beat top competition is Nog and Fedor, everyone else is as of yet unproven or too flakey to rank consistently.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

I Can't believe everyone is going so blindly for Fedor! I mean come on! who has he beaten recently? Cain just beat Big F*cking Ben Fatty Rothwell! He has so many fights where he destroys his opponents! He has never been beaten by a cut! How can you go against a guy who has never been defeated? Fedor was beaten by a cut! He also clearly got the headbut on nog to get out of that fight. Cain would beat fedor anywhere! even in the next UFC because he took no damage fighting in his last fight. And i mean Cain has a tattoo of "Brown Pride" on his chest! that has got to count for something! 

Cain via first rd flying arm bar!


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> You think that's outrageous, Carwin is ranked #5! Who the hell has he beaten? It's like his ranking went up when they put him against Lesnar. By that logic, if I schedule a fight with Fedor, I'm #2? Keep in mind that guys like Mir and Carwin have beaten mostly cans too.
> 
> We have to accept the world HW division is weak. Rogers has beaten more people impressively than anyone below him in the rankings (and some people, like Carwin, above him). Who has JDS beat? Who has Werdum beat recently? Who has Overeem or Valesquez beat?
> 
> The only guys in the HW division right now that have consistently beat top competition is Nog and Fedor, everyone else is as of yet unproven or too flakey to rank consistently.


This is insane!!! Overeem just subbed James "The Colossus" Thompson!!!


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

SO MUCH ENERGY!! YEAAAAH!!! 

Hey you guys I just beat up my friend in the back yard.


do u think im reddy 4 fedor??!


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> SO MUCH ENERGY!! YEAAAAH!!!
> 
> Hey you guys I just beat up my friend in the back yard.
> 
> ...


I had your friend ranked number one, you shouldnt lower yourself to fighting Fedor until he proves himself some more.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Fedor's ducking khoveraki, and Emerson of course.


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## Shamrock-Ortiz (Sep 22, 2006)

IronMan said:


> Well, Cain's not the best wrestler Fedor's beaten (not even close).
> 
> He's not the best striker Fedor's beaten. (doesn't make the top five)
> 
> ...


You shouldn't even make small analysis like that when analyzing a fight. 

Isn't MMA mostly these days about how well rounded you are? So if you look at it another way. Has Fedor ever fought a wrestler like Cain who actually has a ground game in MMA? Coleman used to have good G+P, but his grappling is much worse than Cain's.

You've also got to remember that those wrestlers Fedor fought, DID actually get him down (Randleman, Coleman, Hong Man, Lindland was close). So whether Fedor has fought better wrestlers than Cain or not, it doesn't mean much because it's not like he stayed up against those good wrestlers. If he stayed up against Coleman and Randleman then you could say what you did, but as they got him down... I don't know why you'd say it, it doesn't make any sense.


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

Are we really doing MMA Math here, please don't because that brings out Calminian and outrageous comments regarding how Fedor has not beaten anyone impressive and how he stumbled on his 30 wins. In the HW division EVERYONE has a punchers chance, thats what Carwin and Grim bring to the table. We have yet to see either handle adversity or a super tough opponent where they had to rely on other MMA skills. Lets see how Cain fares vs. Mir or Big Nog (when healthy) and then we can truly judge him.

For the record, Big Nog is the best HW in the UFC when he is healthy, its true. 

:thumbsup:


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

The fact that MMA math rarely works doesn't stop us doing it, unfortunately.


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## Mjr (Apr 22, 2007)

Argh, I can't believe the dudes arguing with Ironman and co's rankings. The system they use works pretty well, and if you look back on the last few months, it has been VERY well recieved.

Rogers and Carwin deserve to be where they are, the facts are the HW division worldwide is weak. 

As for Cain vs Fedor, Fedor likely takes this, however it would be silly to completely discount Cain, the dude has some pretty serious skills! But you should have all learnt your lesson saying things like "MACHIDA WILL OWN SHOGUN"


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Yeah, Fedor should win this one by submission.

"MMA math" doesn't work for determining fight outcomes, but it's essential when determining rankings.


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

I think the correct adjective is not that the HW division is weak but moreso unproven. A lot of young fighters, but events occur the cream will or should rise to the top.

Lesnar
Cain
Duffee
Carwin
Junior

Are all promising young fighters but they have not gone through the wars of Nog, Coutoure, Arlovski, Sylvia, Fedor, to really gage what their true abilities are. Would love to have UFC do a "Young" vs. "Old" event.

Lesnar vs. Nog
Velasquez vs. Mir
Duffee vs. Buenetello (happening)
Carwin vs. Kongo
Dos Santos vs. Coutoure

Lets see how that ends up!


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Samborules said:


> I think the correct adjective is not that the HW division is weak but moreso unproven. A lot of young fighters, but events occur the cream will or should rise to the top.
> 
> Lesnar
> Cain
> ...


The "unproven", developing dynamic you mention is one of the reasons that I love the HW division.


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

Agreed 100%

Me too, especilly like Duffee, charismatic, funny and a bad bad man...I think? Unproven..LOL


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## DrHouse (Aug 1, 2009)

Samborules said:


> I think the correct adjective is not that the HW division is weak but moreso unproven. A lot of young fighters, but events occur the cream will or should rise to the top.
> 
> Lesnar
> Cain
> ...


Lesnar is 33, Nog is 34. Cain is 27, Mir is 30. Carwin is 34, Kongo is 34, Only Duffee/Buentello and Couture/Dos Santos are young Vs. Old.


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

Hence I used ""...I mean MMA experience young and old.

Sorry


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## Mjr (Apr 22, 2007)

Agree 100% unproven is a better word for it.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

DrHouse said:


> Lesnar is 33, Nog is 34. Cain is 27, Mir is 30. Carwin is 34, Kongo is 34, Only Duffee/Buentello and Couture/Dos Santos are young Vs. Old.


:facepalm:

Nog's 2.5 matches with Fedor added at least ten years to his face and soul. Guys like Nog and Couture have been thru WARS, it doesn't matter how old they are. That's why Randy can fight at his age, he's only been fighting for ten years or so. If he started at 20ish he'd be dead by now.


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## DrHouse (Aug 1, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> :facepalm:
> 
> Nog's 2.5 matches with Fedor added at least ten years to his face and soul. Guys like Nog and Couture have been thru WARS, it doesn't matter how old they are. That's why Randy can fight at his age, he's only been fighting for ten years or so. If he started at 20ish he'd be dead by now.


I know I know and I wasn't trying to be a smartass. I'm just kind of against people using the word "old" rather than experienced.


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## DrHouse (Aug 1, 2009)

Samborules said:


> Hence I used ""...I mean MMA experience young and old.
> 
> Sorry


Nah my bad, didn't clock on the "..."'s.


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

So maybe call the event veteran vs. up and comer? Something like that, where are all the marketing people out there!?!?!? LOL

But my pt. is the division is far from weak its just unproven at this time. Lesnar is the most proven and he has fought what five times?


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

AmRiT said:


> Gonzaga wasn't top 10? LOL
> 
> Arlovski's chin is weak, fact. Rogers would get destroyed by Cain or Carwin, fact.


The first hald of this makes sense because it has been shown.. Fedor hit him once he dropped.. Rogers dropped him quickly as well

BUT HOW THE HELL can the last part be fact when none of them have fought.. that is pure speculation and opinion.. I giove him a chance cause of his speed and technique which is good.. but the otehrs have good technique and can hit much much harder.. how many shots did he land on Kongo.. and was not able to put him out.. how many times did he hiot Rothwell and all rothwell showed was a bloody nose?? I mean really..???


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Calminian said:


> Alrighty, let me take a shot at this.
> 
> He scores a few shots, but Cain doesn't seem fazed. He thinks to himself, wow, this guy doesn't even hit as hard as Kongo. So he decides to stand up with him for a bit and lands a couple of his own shots and then shoots a single.
> Rounds 2 and 3 are the same with Fedor utterly gassed at the end. Unanimous decision for Cain. mmaforum.com and all other forums crash for 3 days.
> ...


Many including Tim Sylvia say Fedor hits harder then any they ever faced.. If Fedor tee'd off on Cain I think he would be floored.. maybe not KO'd.. but knocked down.. 

And Gassed? Go watch his fights with Nog or any of his long fights.. never once does he appeared Gassed.. Really.. Are you like in love with cain or something?


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## AmRiT (Apr 23, 2007)

The Don said:


> The first hald of this makes sense because it has been shown.. Fedor hit him once he dropped.. Rogers dropped him quickly as well
> 
> BUT HOW THE HELL can the last part be fact when none of them have fought.. that is pure speculation and opinion.. I giove him a chance cause of his speed and technique which is good.. but the otehrs have good technique and can hit much much harder.. how many shots did he land on Kongo.. and was not able to put him out.. how many times did he hiot Rothwell and all rothwell showed was a bloody nose?? I mean really..???


Do you not consider some rag dolling their opponent then pounding their face in, destroying them? I do... Cain would control Rogers for 3 rounds no doubt, Rogers might be like a fish out of water on the ground, we don't know how good his sub defence is, meaning Cain could easily sub him too.

Carwin is a huge, strong wrestler, if he is smart, he just puts rogers on his back and pounds him out... With the right gameplan, Rogers has only a punchers chance of winning against either guy.


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

Everyone has a plan until they get hit!

:thumb02:


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

i love when ppl think somebody is unbeatable. I also love when they underestimate somebody. Not saying Cain would win, but i dont think he would be embarrassed and i dont think he gets half the credit he will get 12 months from now, when alot of you are eating their words and this guy is the worldwide face of MMA in Latin America

Enjoy the kids heart, cardio and GnP, he is a big energizer bunny out there, something i have never seen before, relentless. He is only getting better, especially with teh striking, he has a good camp, i say we give this kid a couple of UFC elite HWs and then redicuss this in a year, perhaps we will have a clearer idea of where he stands with the elite. Until then, saying he could beat Fedor is crazy premature, and saying he would get armbarred the 1st time they hit the ground is laughable.


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## cdnbaron (Jan 17, 2007)

IronMan said:


> I don't think Werdum or Overeem present even a puncher's threat against Fedor, but that's neither here nor there.


Then you're more delusional than I thought. Werdum is the best HW grappler in MMA (regardless of stupid mental lapses against the Mike Kyles of the world), and would give Fedor a hell of a time on the ground.

And Overeem is the best HW striker in MMA, is monstrous and has an above average ground game. Overeem is THE most dangerous fighter to Fedor's #1 spot right now, and that's the match I want to see, way more than Fedor/Lesnar.



> Apart from the fact that the Carwin vs. Lesnar fight is off (I'm just going to assume you knew that and the phrasing was just weird), there are a lot of reasons why Cain shouldn't get a title shot right now


Apart from the fact that Lesnar/Carwin was never cancelled, merely postponed (I'm just going to assume you knew that though), I wasn't referring to Lesnar/Carwin. I was referring to the fact that Cain was scheduled to fight Carwin before the UFC decided that Shane's performance against Gonzaga was "worthy" of a title shot. How is Cain worthy of fighting Carwin, in what was a clear #1 contender's match, but not worthy of top 10 status?



> ranging from the things he hasn't done, like stop a top twenty fighter or demonstrate that he can beat a BJJ blackbelt (which is a serious thing for wrestlers looking to be called top five fighter in the UFC) to the things he can't do, which include outwrestling Brock and Shane and stopping an opponent with one punch (which is an important skill given that Cain's not the best wrestler in the division).


First, Ben Rothwell is a top 20 fighter, and Cain stopped him... but as of that list of rankings, you're somewhat right. I say somewhat because Jake O'Brien was a borderline top 20 fighter when Cain absolutely demolished him (he was 3-1 in the UFC with a win over Heath Herring, and his only loss coming to Arlovski who was the #2 HW in the world at the time. At HW, that makes you top 20). 

You could twist your silly little criteria around any way you'd like. Rogers hasn't beaten a BJJ blackbelt either, and you have him at 6 with no problem. Nor has he beat an elite MMA wrestler. Carwin hasn't beat an elite MMA wrestler either, he hasn't stopped a good striker either (Gonzaga has power, but he's far from a good striker).

You can't point out for days what specific types of guys fighters haven't beaten, because when fighters are 7 (or 10 or 11) fights into a career, it's impossible for them to have faced every test out there. If you're waiting until Cain proves himself against every conceivable type of fighter he can face, you're going to be waiting a long ass time until you put him in the top 10.



> I'm not saying winning in the first is the only way to put on a great performance. Some fighter's put on their best performances without finishing, but Cain hasn't put on his best performances and he hasn't finished quickly.


This is part of our disconnect. You don't consider Cain completely dominating Kongo as a great performance, wherein he did the exact same thing as Carwin against Gonzaga. Got rocked and came back to win. The difference is that Cain mauled Kongo for 14 of the 15 minutes in the cage. Carwin caught Gonzaga with 1 punch in a fight he was otherwise losing. I know you'll try to turn that around to say that Carwin's great power makes him somehow a more accomplished fighter than Cain, but people living in the real world are aware that Cain's domination of Kongo was equally, if not more impressive, than Carwin's win over Gonzaga.



> The fact that Cain can't turn a fight that quickly, especially given how good both Carwin and Brock are at it, is definitely going to present a long term problem.


I disagree once again. It's definitely an advantage Cain doesn't hold that Brock and Shane do, but Cain has also proved to be much more dominant (in terms of not putting himself in bad positions... even when rocked by Kongo, he immediately got to a dominant position) than both Lesnar and Carwin, so it's not something he's needed.



> That's absolutely fair. He beat Rothwell badly, and it was a good performance.
> 
> But stepping in against a guy who's been out for ten months doesn't really make him look great, in my opinion.


In the same way that Carwin finishing Gonzaga and Rogers finishing Arlovski doesn't make either of them look great, when both of those guys have been finished numerous times throughout their career.

Nor does Carwin getting a title shot make him look any better, for the record. That fact that you guys have him ranked highest out of him, Rogers and JDS is pathetic, when JDS and Rogers have markedly better wins (Arlovski and Werdum are far better, and were ranked higher at the time they were beaten, than Gonzaga).



> If Cain is going to move into the top ten now (and I just have one vote, so it may happen), it will be because he beat Rothwell, and people think Rothwell is good (because, it turns out, Rothwell is good).


The thing is, Cain was already in the top 10, now he's starting to climb it. The few people who still hold him out of the top 10 (except for you, it seems) will now have him as a top 10 guy. It's not even up for discussion after the Rothwell win.



> It doesn't _supersede_ all else. But it does matter.


It shouldn't, because rankings aren't based on skill or potential, they're based on accomplishment.



> Cain's fast and technical, but he's going to have a lot of issues handling experienced wrestlers and heavy handed strikers (and, while he fought a much bigger Ben Rothwell, don't make the mistake of thinking Rothwell is anywhere near as big, as athletic or as technically savvy as Carwin or Rogers).


I think Cain is more self-aware of his abilities as a fighter than any of the guys we've talked about in this thread. He's also the most critical of himself, which will lead to the greatest fight-to-fight improvement.

I don't see him struggling with experienced wrestlers, since I think he's the best overall wrestler in the HW division. Not necessarily by his credentials, but by what he's shown in fights. Also, the fact that he's been away from the wrestling game for less than half the time as Lesnar and Carwin (who have both been away from amateur wrestling for a decade now) works in his favour, and is something I'm not sure you've considered in your assumption that Carwin and Lesnar are unequivocally better wrestlers than him.



> Had either Gonzaga or Arlovski ever been beaten like they were by Carwin and Rogers (respectively)? No. Not as far as I'm concerned.


You mean has Gonzaga ever been ahead in a fight and given it away? Yes, he has.

And has Arlovski ever been finished by one punch or one flurry before? Absolutely, tons of times. Against Fedor, against Sylvia and against Rizzo he was stopped rather abruptly.



> Still, what should have been the toughest fight of Rogers career was a domination. And, while Kongo is much tougher than Humphrey, in their two tests, Rogers looked much better. He knew how to use the clinch to deal damage without taking it and he knew how to use his weight effectively.


Again, we're not on the same page. You consider that fight a domination, when really Rogers just had the good fortune of catching his opponent with the first combination he threw. I take far less from the Arlovski fight than I do from the Abongo fight. Still, he beat a guy who was widely considered a top 5 HW, and he gets credit for that.



> Cain puts focus on speed, for sure, but his technique isn't better than Carwin's in terms of standup. Frankly, I think Shane's grappling game is better than Cain's, too, but we haven't seen as much of Cain's.


Carwin doesn't have very good technique standing, so I'm not sure I'd agree with that assessment. Granted, Cain's technique standing isn't polished by any means, but Cain has a much more diverse striking game (kicks, knees, clinch work, etc) than Shane.

As for the ground game, we've seen so little of Carwin on the ground that it's hard to tell. And we've never seen Cain in a bad spot on the ground, he's always been dominating, so we can't be sure of that part of his game. From what we've seen, Cain has constantly dominated on the ground, and Shane hasn't, so I'd have to give Cain the edge as of right now... but that could change if Carwin is some sort of grappling phenom.



> Also, when Brock shows up for pure grappling and submits a BJJ world champion like Gabe Gonzaga, it does make me change my generally anti-Brock tone. His grappling certainly seems to be improving.


We really don't know the circumstances surrounding that incident, or, to be frank, the legitimacy of it. Brock certainly has shown a devastating positional GnP game though, so his ground game is very potent.



> From a technical standpoint, I'll happily get into the things that Cain doesn't do that a guy with Lesnar's background would never miss, but it's kind of redundant.


I'm not sure what you mean by "a guy with Lesnar's background" when both guys come from a similar amateur wrestling background. But gladly.



> The fact that Carwin was able to work his way back to guard against a 250 pound BJJ world champion after getting nearly knocked out is incredibly impressive, and if you watch his fight with Neil Wain, there's a technical and simple half guard pass and classic BJJ position advancement.


I agree that Carwin has shown some solid skills on the ground, it's just been such a small sample that it's nearly impossible to come to a conclusion about his game using it.



khoveraki said:


> I can't tell which is stupider... thinking Valesquez of all people has a shot in any kind of combat sport against Fedor, or arguing with IronMan about RANKINGS, for godssake. That's like a middle schooler arguing with a grad school professor over an english paper.
> 
> Although... how the hell does Carwin get put above Rogers?
> 
> Comparing their two "big" fights, Rogers dominated a top 10 (even top 5 to some) Arlovski in 45 seconds, Carwin got beat up by Gonzaga (not even top 10, maybe not top 15) and taken down, then KO'd him.


I like how you say it's stupid to argue with IronMan about rankings, and then proceed to try to pick apart his rankings.

Also, stop holding him up as some sort of Deity of MMA knowledge. He's not. He knows a lot, sure, but he's not all-knowing about MMA... nobody is.



khoveraki said:


> Beating Justin McCully and Josh Hendricks makes you a top ten?


When you're a former title contender, and sitting on the fringe of the top 10 (due to having just lost a title fight) those two wins do in fact make you a top 10... especially at HW.



Mjr said:


> Argh, I can't believe the dudes arguing with Ironman and co's rankings. The system they use works pretty well, and if you look back on the last few months, it has been VERY well recieved.
> 
> Rogers and Carwin deserve to be where they are, the facts are the HW division worldwide is weak.


The whole idea behind rankings is to create debate. And I'm not arguing with his system, most sites that do rankings follow a similar system (I know the site I write for does), I'm arguing with the results.

And if Rogers and Carwin deserve to be where they are, Cain deserves to be right there among them (even before the Rothwell win).

Argh, I can't believe you just take whatever is spoon fed to you at face value.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Samborules said:


> Everyone has a plan until they get hit!
> 
> :thumb02:


In the face.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

Samborules said:


> Everyone has a plan until they get hit!
> 
> :thumb02:





swpthleg said:


> In the face.


HARD! .. Fedor like even..


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

cdnbaron said:


> Then you're more delusional than I thought. Werdum is the best HW grappler in MMA (regardless of stupid mental lapses against the Mike Kyles of the world), *and would give Fedor a hell of a time on the ground.*


Let's not get carried away here, maybe if he ends up on top but not if he's on the bottom. 

Fedor was in Nog's guard for almost 45mn raining down huge bombs and completely neutralized his guard like it was nothing (other than the sweep but he swept him right back). 

When you see what Nog's done to a fighter like Randy on the ground, that just shows you how amazing Fedor's top game is.

I dont think Werdum could get anything going off his back against Fedor and he doesn't have the wrestling to end up on top.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Xerxes said:


> Let's not get carried away here, maybe if he ends up on top but not if he's on the bottom.
> 
> Fedor was in Nog's guard for almost 45mn raining down huge bombs and completely neutralized his guard like it was nothing (other than the sweep but he swept him right back).
> 
> ...


Ive never been really impressed by Werdums ground game when it comes to mma. In a pure grappeling match, i would rarely bet against the guy, but i dont think he has been able to transition his bjj to mma as well as a lot of other top guys have like Maia and Filho. I dont think he would have much of a chance of subbing Fedor the fact that he let Mike Kyle almost get him with an armbar makes me think that Fedor wouldnt have any problems catching him.


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## The Don (May 25, 2006)

AmRiT said:


> Do you not consider some rag dolling their opponent then pounding their face in, destroying them? I do... Cain would control Rogers for 3 rounds no doubt, Rogers might be like a fish out of water on the ground, we don't know how good his sub defence is, meaning Cain could easily sub him too.


Well yea Bens take downs suck.. but for the number of shots Cain landed Ben should have had alot more then a bloody nose.. So no.. I do not consider him getting destroyed.. yes Cain was clearly winning.. But I do not say destroying him.. Personally I thought the fight was stopped too soon.. Not that I feel it would have changed much.. but for all his speed and agression.. Cain seems to lack serious KO power..


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

joshua7789 said:


> Ive never been really impressed by Werdums ground game when it comes to mma. In a pure grappeling match, i would rarely bet against the guy, but i dont think he has been able to transition his bjj to mma as well as a lot of other top guys have like Maia and Filho. I dont think he would have much of a chance of subbing Fedor the fact that he let Mike Kyle almost get him with an armbar makes me think that Fedor wouldnt have any problems catching him.


Exactly. 

As you said his pure BJJ skills are top notch but his MMA BJJ while very good, isn't impressive. 

I'd say Nog's guard in MMA is much more dangerous than Werdum's. Their fight in Pride was interesting. Iirc Werdum was able to get the mount in the 3rd and Nog swept him several times from half guard. 

+rep to you :thumbsup:


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## XitUp (Jan 11, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> I can't tell which is stupider... thinking Valesquez of all people has a shot in any kind of combat sport against Fedor, or arguing with IronMan about RANKINGS, for godssake. That's like a middle schooler arguing with a grad school professor over an english paper.


Does he let you carry his books to class after that arse licking?


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

Lets be honest, rankings are purely opinion based, if I think Lesnar is the best pound for pound, you think its A. Silva and someone else thinks its GSP...its 100% opinion based. So no one should really get upset over an opinion unless its a crazy one like Fedor has never beaten anyone half way decent and slept his way to his 30 wins...AHEM...Calminian.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

cain is good, but not that good.
i'll have to say fedor by sub.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

XitUp said:


> Does he let you carry his books to class after that arse licking?


 
Keep it civil X.....


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

...Fedor wins everytime


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

Rodgers may even take Cain


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Samborules said:


> Rodgers may even take Cain


maybe. if he doesnt have a ground game i see cain winning like he did against kongo


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

We should find out on the 7th what Grim has?


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Samborules said:


> We should find out on the 7th what Grim has?


we most definitely will!


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## Tacx0911 (Aug 12, 2009)

Fedor will just make CV look bad, standing up or on the ground.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

If Micheal Jordan had joined the euro league for the last 5 years of his career and dunked on nobodys, would he still be considered the greatest at that point?? Maybe one of the greatest ever, but to still be considered the greatest you need to take on the greatest. Dont give me some BS that Fedor has faced anybody as versatile as Cain in the last few years... and Cain isnt even top 5.... think about it... stop overhyping a guy on past performances and stop comparing Cain to one dimensional crappy wrestlers like Mark Coleman, he is the new breed and only getting better.


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

alizio said:


> If Micheal Jordan had joined the euro league for the last 5 years of his career and dunked on nobodys, would he still be considered the greatest at that point?? Maybe one of the greatest ever, but to still be considered the greatest you need to take on the greatest. Dont give me some BS that Fedor has faced anybody as versatile as Cain in the last few years... and Cain isnt even top 5.... think about it... stop overhyping a guy on past performances and stop comparing Cain to one dimensional crappy wrestlers like Mark Coleman, he is the new breed and only getting better.


When Michael Jordan took time off to play baseball and then came back to the NBA he was just as dominant. Who has Lesnar, Carwin, Cain, Mir beaten while Fedor has been gone? Your sir are a ninny.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

Samborules said:


> When Michael Jordan took time off to play baseball and then came back to the NBA he was just as dominant. Who has Lesnar, Carwin, Cain, Mir beaten while Fedor has been gone? Your sir are a ninny.


 fedors last 3 fights, washed up guys that cant make it back to the ufc... and now brett rogers?? oh yea, undoubtedly still the best, no need to actually prove it, just live off your laurels and dimwit fans like you will still hug those nuts and not ask him to actually fight somebody meaningful.... i mean Buck Rogers... hahahaahahahha this guy couldnt get past Kongo, nevermind Lesnar


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## N-Como (Aug 25, 2009)

IMO right now a Fedor/ Cain match would look almost exactly like Coleman vs Fedor. Cain has showed how dominate his wrestling style is against another great D1 wrestler (Jake O brian) a great striker (Kongo) and a man with a huge size advantage ( Rothwell) who were all legit top 20s when he faced them but there are many qualities of Cain that are still untested. I want to see him against some of UFC's BJJ blackbelts (Mir, Nog, Gonzaga) to see if his top game can be as dominate as it has been. 

Cain in my opinon would have beaten Carwin with a lay and pray decision. Carwin didn't look impressive at all against Gonzaga. It looked like a lucky punch, Gonzaga rocked him, then took him down, then Carwin catches him with his only hit. Carwin may have been a D2 champ but Gonzaga took him down, then Cain could easily take him down. Size difference is big between the two but so is speed. Cain's speed is on par with that freak of nature Lesnar and Carwin looks very slow and robotic. I say the match would have been three straight periods of Cain quickly taking him down and throwing bombs from the top then Carwin powering to his feet just to get taken down again and if Cain gets rocked he would probably just dive in a taken him down again. (It could look similar to Cain vs Kongo to me). With Carwin's size I know he's going to gas fast and it's just going to get easier as the fight drags on. 

Lesnar is the worse possible matchup for Cain. Lesnar has better wrestling credentals than him, is just as fast, better stand up, better GNP and twice the strength and size. If Cain ever faced him, I'm afraid Brock would take his soul. Couture if he decided to not drop down to LHWT would also have been the Kryptonite of Velasquez. 

So in a nutshell I'm convinced Cain is one of the best and he has loads of potential. Cain has proved how fast and agressive he is with his superior wrestling but I think his top game still isn't tested and might be prone when he is fighting BJJ games. And if he plans on fighting Lesnar anytime soon, he needs to improve his stand up game dramatically because he is not going to take Lesnar down. 

About Fedor, if Cain has submission defense... He beats Fedor. Watching Coleman and Randelman fight Fedor show how great wrestling beats Fedor's grappling and how easily they took him down but the two of them were so one dimensonial that they were caught in submissions.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

N-Como said:


> IMO right now a Fedor/ Cain match would look almost exactly like Coleman vs Fedor. Cain has showed how dominate his wrestling style is against another great D1 wrestler (Jake O brian) a great striker (Kongo) and a man with a huge size advantage ( Rothwell) who were all legit top 20s when he faced them but there are many qualities of Cain that are still untested. I want to see him against some of UFC's BJJ blackbelts (Mir, Nog, Gonzaga) to see if his top game can be as dominate as it has been.
> 
> Cain in my opinon would have beaten Carwin with a lay and pray decision. Carwin didn't look impressive at all against Gonzaga. It looked like a lucky punch, Gonzaga rocked him, then took him down, then Carwin catches him with his only hit. Carwin may have been a D2 champ but Gonzaga took him down, then Cain could easily take him down. Size difference is big between the two but so is speed. Cain's speed is on par with that freak of nature Lesnar and Carwin looks very slow and robotic. I say the match would have been three straight periods of Cain quickly taking him down and throwing bombs from the top then Carwin powering to his feet just to get taken down again and if Cain gets rocked he would probably just dive in a taken him down again. (It could look similar to Cain vs Kongo to me). With Carwin's size I know he's going to gas fast and it's just going to get easier as the fight drags on.
> 
> ...


 I agree with alot of what you say, except Cain is already more well rounded then Coleman and Randelman ever where, altho we dont see alot of it, check out a training vid for him, he is versatile as all hell, elbows, knees, kicks to the head etc etc.

I also somewhat disagree with the Lesnar coimparison, 1st, Brock is def bigger then Cain, dont exxagerate and take away from your point by saying twice as big...

Cain was a dominant wrestler in college, not so long ago... Brock over 10 years ago.... dont think Brock has a huge advantage there, if Randy can stuff him, maybe cain can too!!

I dont know why you said Lesnar has better stand up...

The biggest advantage Cain has, you didnt even mention.... Cardio... watch him train, or watch his fights, he doesnt get tired, Brock cant keep up that pace, he got tired after 1 round with Randy. I do agree that it would be hard to take Brock down... EARLY... but 2nd or 3rd round... if Cain still has gas as i assume he will...

I get sick of hearing every decent up and coming HW will get tapped or KO'D in 15 seconds by fedor... its ridic, this kid has game and ppl should give him a chance to fight more top HWs before making such a ridic statement, im not saying he would beat Fedor for sure, but i think he could give him a go in a year or 2.


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## N-Como (Aug 25, 2009)

alizio said:


> I dont know why you said Lesnar has better stand up...
> 
> The biggest advantage Cain has, you didnt even mention.... Cardio... watch him train, or watch his fights, he doesnt get tired, Brock cant keep up that pace, he got tired after 1 round with Randy. I do agree that it would be hard to take Brock down... EARLY... but 2nd or 3rd round... if Cain still has gas as i assume he will...



Well i meant by how Brock has heavier hand's and a longer reach and shown how he's been able to knock people down with punching (Mir 1, Herring, Couture) I really haven't seen anything with Cain besides that he may have pillows for hands. 

And the cardio comment... Brock looked to be breathing heavily but he was still pushing the pace. Cain is going to have to deal with all of Lesnars strength in a style that is almost identical to his. Takeing down Lesnar once and getting dominate position is going take more gas than the entire rothwell fight. Cain may be just as if not more tired than Brock in the later rounds of the fight. 

Randy was able to neuturalize his strength by clinching him against the cage. Pinning him to the cage making him stand straight kept him from using his strength and wrestling so randy could get a clean hold on the legs to take him down. When couture uses this, it worked against everyone he fought. Randy was able to stuff takedowns and almost get a takedown on Brock because of his expertise in working against the cage. he would have never been able to get a takedown on brock if they were in the center of the octagon. 

About Fedor submitting Cain I am saying that because he is untested against submission artists. Honestly I am going to get bashed for this but with Mir being bigger than Fedor and just as good if not better at the submission game and with how Fedor can be easily taken down by wrestlers. I say Brock would take Fedor down and smother him into a TKO. 

Cain could beat Fedor but I'm just saying the Fedor submission because Cain is untested in that department but Lesnar is the one person Cain should stay away from.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

well we both like Cain, the big diff is im talking down the road, 2 or 3 fights from a title shot imo, prob 2, but he gets better everytime. I dont think he is as confident with his standup in the octogan as he is in the gym, but thats a natural thing for wrestlers in MMA, esp young ones, i think you will see an in octogan increase in his striking very shortly.

Does Lesnar really hit harder then Kongo?? Would he even want to stand with Kongo?? IMO the answer to both is no, so if Cain basically took a couple flush KO shots from Kongo back to back, and then one more in the next round, im hesitant to think Brock can 1 shot KO him, obv if he rocked him Cain would be in trouble from the GnP.

I think you underestimate the pace Cain pushes, which is far beyond any HW in the game, and i dont think there is one that can keep up, he is constantly going for takedowns, striking, if he gets you down, he is all over you, no holding and breathing, he just wears you down, constant pressure, there is really nobody like him, wrestling wise, including Brock, in the game.

The key for Cain is to avoid being taken down early. I dont think Brock could deal with Cain if he were on his back, wrestlers are often very bad off their back, esp vs other wrestlers. I could see Brock get an early TD and finish, but as fast as ppl say brock is, footwise, iu think Cain is much quicker, he is scary fast with the TDs and movement.

blah, highjacked a fedor thread  why not. Fedor hasnt fought anybody with the skillsets of brock or cain, ever, thats why i want to see it, i hate ppl just dismissing it cuz of past accomplishments against many freakshows, 1 dimensional fighters and a few top fighters which def puts him at #1..... back in the pride days....


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## N-Como (Aug 25, 2009)

alizio said:


> blah, highjacked a fedor thread  why not. Fedor hasnt fought anybody with the skillsets of brock or cain, ever, thats why i want to see it, i hate ppl just dismissing it cuz of past accomplishments against many freakshows, 1 dimensional fighters and a few top fighters which def puts him at #1..... back in the pride days....


BTW wasn't the heavyweight division of pride exposed?


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

> blah, highjacked a fedor thread  why not. *Fedor hasnt fought anybody with the skillsets of brock or cain, ever,* thats why i want to see it, i hate ppl just dismissing it cuz of past accomplishments against many freakshows, 1 dimensional fighters and a few top fighters which def puts him at #1..... back in the pride days....


Yep, you just lost all credibility, sorry.

:thumbsdown:


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

Samborules said:


> blah, highjacked a fedor thread  why not. *Fedor hasnt fought anybody with the skillsets of brock or cain, ever,* thats why i want to see it, i hate ppl just dismissing it cuz of past accomplishments against many freakshows, 1 dimensional fighters and a few top fighters which def puts him at #1..... back in the pride days....


Yep, you just lost all credibility, sorry.

:thumbsdown:[/QUOTE]

good arguement, nice avatar, prob very unbiased on this discussion!!! wtg, now go away!!!


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

Brother, you cannot say that Fedor did not beat anyone with the skill set of Lesnar or Cain, who have they beaten? Lesnar is 5-1 and Cain has fought what one top dude? That argument is just silly. You are one of those that believes that Fedor stumbled his way to 30 wins, its a useless argument that I refuse to have. It would be like arguing with my 5-year old. There is no argument, I know more but she being naive believes that she does and I really cannot change her mind. So you may start calling me daddy if you like, but your premise is just very childish. 

Thanks for playing, next you'll tell me that Nog and Coleman in their prime were awful, same for Cro Cop, right?

Bleh

:bye02:


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

Samborules said:


> Brother, you cannot say that Fedor did not beat anyone with the skill set of Lesnar or Cain, who have they beaten? Lesnar is 5-1 and Cain has fought what one top dude? That argument is just silly. You are one of those that believes that Fedor stumbled his way to 30 wins, its a useless argument that I refuse to have. It would be like arguing with my 5-year old. There is no argument, I know more but she being naive believes that she does and I really cannot change her mind. So you may start calling me daddy if you like, but your premise is just very childish.
> 
> Thanks for playing, next you'll tell me that Nog and Coleman in their prime were awful, same for Cro Cop, right?
> 
> ...


 all 3 are nothing compared of the skillsets of todays HWs... even a prime Crocop would get tooled today, nevermind this shell of a fighter ive seen lately... Coleman is a very one dimensional fighter by todays standards, again, horrible comparisons, you seem to think you know alot.... til you actually say what you think.... the only fighter of note there is Big Nog... who i would LOVE to take on Cain to shut ppl like u up.

gotta add seriously LOL at you for thinking coleman and crocop are great all around fighters by todays standards and werent the product of a very new sport, with very 1 dimensional HWs... those days are gone, you cant just be a kickboxer and succeed, you cant just be a wrestler and succeed, you need a completely different and vast skillset, which neither of those guys have, you overrate them severely and its funny and laughable.


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

Son, you are digging yourself a hole you cannot get out of. This is the same company that produced Hendo and Rampage, who have done very well in the UFC. Cro Cop in his prime was lightning quick, thats what was his prowess, he dominated Nog (also in his prime) for 90% of their fight until Nog caught him. You may be right about today's heavyweights? But wait til they have at least 15 fights before saying they are the best. Lesnar is 1-1 vs. Mir, he has one impressive win over a LHW, 46-year old Randy Coutoure. Cain beat Rothwell, who was schooled by AA, who was KO'd by Fedor with one punch. Next you'll tell me Gegard Moussasi stinks too, right? Ask him how good Fedor is?

This is my last post on this to you, as I have wasted too much time educating the likes of you. You are such a child. 

:thumbsdown:


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

OK, im gonna tool you like 90% of your pride heroes get tooled in the ufc...

1st off, you mention 2 LHW.... we are talking HWs. which pride had a couple of decent ones for the time, and a bunch of cans and freakshows...

you not only mention two LHWs... but two of the VERY FEW that had success in the transition to the UFC....

you seem to think crocop is well rounded by todays standards, he cant hang with JDS, nevermind these freak SHWs.

Coleman... come on... thats how weak the HW division used to be... a one dimensional good wrestler who should be a LHW can be a top 5 HW in pride... 

ok, go away now, go worship at the feet of the former number 1 HW, if he wants to be the current one, tell him to fight somebody...


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Keep it civil, please.


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## AmRiT (Apr 23, 2007)

Samborules said:


> Son, you are digging yourself a hole you cannot get out of. This is the same company that produced Hendo and Rampage, who have done very well in the UFC. Cro Cop in his prime was lightning quick, thats what was his prowess, he dominated Nog (also in his prime) for 90% of their fight until Nog caught him. You may be right about today's heavyweights? But wait til they have at least 15 fights before saying they are the best. Lesnar is 1-1 vs. Mir, he has one impressive win over a LHW, 46-year old Randy Coutoure. *Cain beat Rothwell, who was schooled by AA, who was KO'd by Fedor with one punch.* Next you'll tell me Gegard Moussasi stinks too, right? Ask him how good Fedor is?
> 
> This is my last post on this to you, as I have wasted too much time educating the likes of you. You are such a child.
> 
> :thumbsdown:



Using MMA Math

Yep, you just lost all credibility, sorry.

:thumbsdown:


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

AmRiT said:


> Using MMA Math
> 
> Yep, you just lost all credibility, sorry.
> 
> :thumbsdown:


 not only is it silly MMA math... he didnt even watch the Rothwell vs AA match obv... or he wouldnt say "Schooled" that was a TOUGH, TOUGH, match.... Cain looked much more dominating over Rothwell (despite the early stoppage, anybody with a brain could tell where the fight was going). But im not using MMA math to prove a thing, other then you know pretty much little or nothing of what your talking about, but what do you expect with a guy named SamboRules with a pic of Fedor?? An objective discussion?? Fedor and Machida fans are basically impossible to have this with.


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## DrHouse (Aug 1, 2009)

I can almost, and I mean almost understand what you mean. You're saying that Nog, Cro Cop and Coleman are one dimensional and wouldn't be such a force today even in their primes, I guess that may almost be plausible. 

But you can not dispute that at what they do they are very good. But that's what Fedor did, he beat them at their own game. He sat in a prime Nog's guard for about 20 minutes and absolutely dominated, Coleman got him to the ground and even mounted him but Fedor managed to turn him over and submit him. He may not have outstruck Cro Cop but he did more recently knock out Arlovski, that has to count for something. Fedor's game has very few wholes, I don't really know where you could say he has a weakness. Fedor can armbar just about anyone and anything he wants, Cain is still quite green, if he lets his guard down (no pun intended) for a second he gets armbarred same for Lesnar. Maybe just maybe if Brock could use his weight and hold down Fedor he could grind out a decision but I don't think Cain is big enough, he uses continuous movement to keep his opponents grounded, Fedor is a very quick individual himself.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

I'm not a huge Cain fan, though I respect him highly. As a fighter, he's legitimately dangerous to any HW and what's worse, as someone brought up, is that he is still green. I'd hate to imagine him at full blown veteran status. 

Do I think he's going to beat Lesnar anytime soon? No. With that said, I think between Cain and Carwin, they both "could" beat Lesnar, but I on paper, I still see Lesnar having the advantage. Lesnar is technically green as well, so we've yet to see Lesnar in a Prime state.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

DrHouse said:


> I can almost, and I mean almost understand what you mean. You're saying that Nog, Cro Cop and Coleman are one dimensional and wouldn't be such a force today even in their primes, I guess that may almost be plausible.
> 
> But you can not dispute that at what they do they are very good. But that's what Fedor did, he beat them at their own game. He sat in a prime Nog's guard for about 20 minutes and absolutely dominated, Coleman got him to the ground and even mounted him but Fedor managed to turn him over and submit him. He may not have outstruck Cro Cop but he did more recently knock out Arlovski, that has to count for something. Fedor's game has very few wholes, I don't really know where you could say he has a weakness. Fedor can armbar just about anyone and anything he wants, Cain is still quite green, if he lets his guard down (no pun intended) for a second he gets armbarred same for Lesnar. Maybe just maybe if Brock could use his weight and hold down Fedor he could grind out a decision but I don't think Cain is big enough, he uses continuous movement to keep his opponents grounded, Fedor is a very quick individual himself.


 again, i hope ppl dont misconstrue this as a fedor sucks thing... he obv doesnt... i said he WAS the number 1 HW at one point in time, but you must continue to fight the ever evovling HW landscape to keep that title, not keep fighting the old guard like Big Tim or AA who couldnt beat a top 5 UFC HW if their lives depended on it imo....

the HW game has taken longer to evovle then the lighter divisions for w/e reason. Guys used to get subbed easy back in the day by Royce Gracie, but that division evovled quickly and its VERY hard to submit guys now, to say lesnar or cain would get insta submitted when hitting the ground is an insult the work they put in. Fedor may very well beat these men, but i dont imagine it would be easy, if Fedor wants to be the undisputed best, he must start fighting the best once again... in 5 years you wont even recognize the HW division imo, its finally catching up, these new guys are scary and multi dimensional


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

alizio said:


> again, i hope ppl dont misconstrue this as a fedor sucks thing... he obv doesnt... i said he WAS the number 1 HW at one point in time, but you must continue to fight the ever evovling HW landscape to keep that title, not keep fighting the old guard like Big Tim or AA who couldnt beat a top 5 UFC HW if their lives depended on it imo....
> 
> the HW game has taken longer to evovle then the lighter divisions for w/e reason. Guys used to get subbed easy back in the day by Royce Gracie, but that division evovled quickly and its VERY hard to submit guys now, to say lesnar or cain would get insta submitted when hitting the ground is an insult the work they put in. Fedor may very well beat these men, but i dont imagine it would be easy, if Fedor wants to be the undisputed best, he must start fighting the best once again... in 5 years you wont even recognize the HW division imo, its finally catching up, these new guys are scary and multi dimensional


 

My honest concern it that everytime you choose to post or engage people in discussion the insults come and the words the other person wrote have been totally warped by you and switched into sounding like the point you are trying to convey. 

Perhaps the *most troubling* thing about you as a new member is how many complaints have been recieved about you and the fact that people choose to simply walk away from threads(THUS STOPPING THE CYCLE OF MEMBERS WHO CHOOSE TO CONTINUE TO POST ON THE THREAD).....

I am not trying to insult you, rather point out that you catch more bee's with honey than vinigar and I see glimpses of MMA knowledge shadowed by shrewd remarks and insinuations...


Be chill dude and you really can and will enjoy your time here, but again, when people stop posting on threads(thus they die) because of you thats a problem that we are going to have to fix....

Respectfully The Staff


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## DrHouse (Aug 1, 2009)

alizio said:


> to say lesnar or cain would get insta submitted when hitting the ground is an insult the work they put in. Fedor may very well beat these men, but i dont imagine it would be easy, if Fedor wants to be the undisputed best, he must start fighting the best once again... in 5 years you wont even recognize the HW division imo, its finally catching up, these new guys are scary and multi dimensional


I'm not saying that they would get instantly submitted when hitting the ground, if that were true then Mir would have submitted Brock quite quickly even a second time. But from what I've seen of Fedor the speed at which he sees an arm hangin out and applies an armbar is so quick. Brock and Cain are wrestlers, they'll be fortunate to knock out Fedor especially Cain who lacks the power, and Brocks striking I don't think is evolved enough YET to land a strike with all his power. On the ground Fedor has had wrestlers on top him, Coleman and Lindland are better wrestlers than Cane, possibly Brock. Fedor dealt with them quite easily, I just think it would be too hard for Cane to hold him down to grind out a decision, I think Brock has a better chance though, he's a better wrestler and his weight advantage is significant, maybe he could him down for a decision or some GNP for a TKO. Thing is Brock has power and a punchers chance, I don't think Cane even has that.


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## N-Como (Aug 25, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> My honest concern it that everytime you choose to post or engage people in discussion the insults come and the words the other person wrote have been totally warped by you and switched into sounding like the point you are trying to convey.
> 
> Perhaps the *most troubling* thing about you as a new member is how many complaints have been recieved about you and the fact that people choose to simply walk away from threads(THUS STOPPING THE CYCLE OF MEMBERS WHO CHOOSE TO CONTINUE TO POST ON THE THREAD).....
> 
> ...


Wait I see the conversation and what I've read is alizio trying to prove a point and yet he's the one in trouble while we have the Samborules guy throwing insults, calling people children, and basically putting all the people below him who don't agree to his Fedor rules and all UFC fighters are no where near his level BS. Yet I see him not only trouble free I see a high green rep bar. 

Now I say Cain has an unproven ground game against submission's. If he can defend submissions I say he takes down fedor and is able to get a TKO. With the quickness of Cain's takedowns and how I see Fedor with not perfect TDD. Cain can get him to the ground and if he can defend himself on top, he's just going wild with the GnP like he always does, straight to a TKO.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

u know, ill respect what u said CC and try my best, but you could have been classy and had somebody i didnt already have problems and insults throw (BOTH ways btw) with like you deliver the message, and it could have been in private as to try not to embarrass me publicly.... alot of insults in this thread calling me a child or w/e, i tried to be civil but perhaps lost my cool, i will try my best not to again, i intend to create discussion not chase it away. The ridiculous neg rep comments i get (racial or bigoted or straight up ignorant) are get are about as classless as airing this out publicly when one PM would have done the job.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

alizio said:


> u know, ill respect what u said CC and try my best, but you could have been classy and had somebody i didnt already have problems and insults throw (BOTH ways btw) with like you deliver the message, and it could have been in private as to try not to embarrass me publicly.... alot of insults in this thread calling me a child or w/e, i tried to be civil but perhaps lost my cool, i will try my best not to again, i intend to create discussion not chase it away. The ridiculous neg rep comments i get (racial or bigoted or straight up ignorant) are get are about as classless as airing this out publicly when one PM would have done the job.


 
The intention is not to embarrass you publically, rather just to make you aware. As I said there is MMA knowledge in there and I personally would engage you in a breakdown of the first three rounds of Machida Rua as i concede he lost 4-5. Simply i dont want to argue, thats why I haven't. 

I will, if we are able to have that a discussion. However at the end of the day I believe we will prob still disagree, which is fiine.

In terms of my earlier post, your rep will turn green and perhaps much more importantly the comments will change....FYI most new members go red then turn green as diff people take getting used to one another. 

My reason for the last post was clear and whoever is leaving reps with racial remarks or things of the like need to grow up as well, usually it stops when posts stay at a civil level and people start to understand you and your personality.

I apologize if you were embarrassed as that was not my intent...I would pos rep you in good gesture but I cant bring you from as red as you are to like 6-7 bars of green with one pos rep its not fair....


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

it's cool, i get abit too passionate at times, part of my personality and a reason i really try to stay out of threads about my 2 fav fighters.

I dont mind if ppl neg rep for a reason, but taking it as an opportunity to say horrible things undercover is basically what it seems to have become for most ppl, something you guys should look into, or at least be able to see how is saying such things.... i have a feeling ill go green as bud i smoke in due time, when i get into a heated discussion ppl think im actually mad, but i never am, and i dont hold a grudge over forum nonsense.

Anyways, i think Cain deserves a bit more respect then he gets, and Fedor def needs to come off the pedestal until he wants to fight the new breed, jmo, dont kill me for it plz


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

alizio said:


> Anyways, i think Cain deserves a bit more respect then he gets, and Fedor def needs to come off the pedestal until he wants to fight the new breed, jmo, dont kill me for it plz



Fedor hasn't fought the "new breed" and that's how you justify UFC HW's as being best. But let me ask you this:

What is Nog ranked worldwide, out of prime and in the UFC? #4. Fedor destroyed him 2.5 times when he was in his prime. 

By "new breed" I'm assuming you mean a well-rounded HW. Keep in mind, Fedor is a 9 time ***** Gold medalist, Judo Gold medalist, has trained with the best kickboxers and boxers in the world, has fought every kind of fighter at their own game and won. This makes him the epitome of "new breed," I guess?

It's not like Fedor is ducking UFC because their fighters are crazy supermen who are the best in the world at everything. 

Lesnar is a straight wrestler (not saying great wrestler) with bad standup. Mir is a straight BJJ guy who's never subbed anyone with a BJJ background. JDS is a pure striker (one who couldn't get the best of a daydreaming, slippery old CroCop until he punched him in the eye). Cain is a wrestler with questionable punching power. Carwin is generally a one-dimensional heavyhitter.

Seems like Nog is the most well-rounded "new breed" HW in the UFC. 

Velasquez is a solid fighter and I like watching him. But give me a break, for 6 years+ now we've been saying so-and-so has a style Fedor's never faced. Cain doesn't have the KO power to finish Fedor, he won't be able to lay and pray on him to decision, and it's not likely he's going to be the first guy in ten years of ***** and MMA to submit him.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

khoveraki said:


> Fedor hasn't fought the "new breed" and that's how you justify UFC HW's as being best. But let me ask you this:
> 
> What is Nog ranked worldwide, out of prime and in the UFC? #4. Fedor destroyed him 2.5 times when he was in his prime.
> 
> ...


Quoted for an intelligent breakdown and for truth.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

unclehulka13 said:


> rofl.
> As soon as Cain takes fedor down, fedor by armbar.



:thumb02:

cain still has ways to go


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

AmRiT said:


> Using MMA Math
> 
> Yep, you just lost all credibility, sorry.
> 
> :thumbsdown:


I did it because he said Fedor never beat anyone good, I agree MMA Math is silly. Was trying to prove a point in NOT using MMA Math...ooops.


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

N-Como said:


> Wait I see the conversation and what I've read is alizio trying to prove a point and yet he's the one in trouble while we have the Samborules guy throwing insults, calling people children, and basically putting all the people below him who don't agree to his Fedor rules and all UFC fighters are no where near his level BS. Yet I see him not only trouble free I see a high green rep bar.
> 
> Now I say Cain has an unproven ground game against submission's. If he can defend submissions I say he takes down fedor and is able to get a TKO. With the quickness of Cain's takedowns and how I see Fedor with not perfect TDD. Cain can get him to the ground and if he can defend himself on top, he's just going wild with the GnP like he always does, straight to a TKO.



With all due respect its tough to have a discussion when someone claims that Fedor stumbled on his 30 wins. Right now there is NO MORE DOMINANT HW than him. There are up and comers, yes, I agree. But making blatant statements like that is childish, if you consider that to be an "insult" then I apologize, it is neither a swear nor a racial slur. I could say being obstinate, is that better? 

Saying that Pride was a second rate organization, a company that produced Wanderlai, Big Nog, Fedor, Shogun Rua, Rampage, Hendo. Kharitonov, Gono, Cro Cop, etc... to me is very immature. Cro Cop has declined but so has Chuck Lidell, are we saying he was NEVER good? No, they relied on quickness and power embedded in that quickness and suddenly lost it, it happens. Being that neither is a great wrestler, unlike Coutoure they become "exposed". Nog and Fedor and Hendo, they CAN wrestle, probably better than anyone in the world, they are super legit. Fact is I cannot not even think of a round that Fedor 100% definitely lost. He recently fought Sylvia, former UFC champ (he sux too now, right) and AA (former UFC champ). You can be angry with him for not signing with the UFC, you can state that today's athletes may eventually surpass him, but to write him off when he has yet to lose is plain childish. Ask fellow MMA fighters what they think of him and if he is so washed up why did Dana White throw all that $$ at him? I apologize if my comments offended anyone but I dislike close minded discussions. 

It would be like me saying Rua beat Machida and if anyone thinks otherwise they are MMA amateurs. Statements like that put off discussions and end threads. I would never do that even if I believed it (which I don't). So please accept my apology but still I will not ever discuss MMA with Alizio, no way...ban me if you must.


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

Samborules said:


> Rodgers may even take Cain


Now you are just being crazy. There is no way Rodgers beats Cain. It isn't happening. Brett Rodgers is pretty much Kimbo Slice if Kimbo connected with a right had to AA's grill. This guy isn't a legit top 10 guy and I don't care what the rankings say. Watch some of his supposed "pro fights", fighting fat out of shape dudes in a cage in a trailer park somewhere in Minnesota hardly qualifies as a pro fight in my opinion. Rodgers was taken down easily by James Thompson in their fight. Cain would brutalize him.

And yeah, there is no way Cain would beat Fedor.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

DropKick said:


> Now you are just being crazy. There is no way Rodgers beats Cain. It isn't happening. Brett Rodgers is pretty much Kimbo Slice if Kimbo connected with a right had to AA's grill. This guy isn't a legit top 10 guy and I don't care what the rankings say. Watch some of his supposed "pro fights", fighting fat out of shape dudes in a cage in a trailer park somewhere in Minnesota hardly qualifies as a pro fight in my opinion. Rodgers was taken down easily by James Thompson in their fight. Cain would brutalize him.
> 
> And yeah, there is no way Cain would beat Fedor.



Rogers is a legitimate threat to anyone at HW. He's a serious fighter who trains with great coaches full time, he's got utterly proven KO power and gameplans way more than people think. Watch a few interviews with him or read a little more about him - he's green but he's no joke. 

A HUGE guy with a major reach advantage, easy KO power and fast hands vs a guy who loves to get hit? Tell me honestly, if you bet $1000 on Cain that you wouldn't be worried that he's going to sleep in rd 1.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> Rogers is a legitimate threat to anyone at HW. He's a serious fighter who trains with great coaches full time, he's got utterly proven KO power and gameplans way more than people think. Watch a few interviews with him or read a little more about him - he's green but he's no joke.
> 
> A HUGE guy with a major reach advantage, easy KO power and fast hands vs a guy who loves to get hit? Tell me honestly, if you bet $1000 on Cain that you wouldn't be worried that he's going to sleep in rd 1.


 i'd bet 1mil with no sweat at all on cain... like i said, he took back 2 back flush shots from kongo... what is buck rogers gonna give him that he hasnt seen?? a piss poor ground game waiting to get dominated??


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

alizio said:


> i'd bet 1mil with no sweat at all on cain... like i said, he took back 2 back flush shots from kongo... what is buck rogers gonna give him that he hasnt seen?? a piss poor ground game waiting to get dominated??


One shot knockout power on his questionable chin?

Man your hyperbole retorts and narrow mindedness are sort of offensive. And "piss poor ground game" - he hasn't had to show us any of his ground game. It's like people talk about how bad Carwin is because he got taken down once.

Jeez you guys have a tendency to forget how fights end. If you take someone down, then they stand up and knock you TFO, that's a convincing win. Rogers is the exact same size as Lesnar except with brutal KO power - you would give Cain no chance against Lesnar but an absolute easy win over Rogers? Let's not forge that Rogers is ranked, and Valesquez is not.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> One shot knockout power on his questionable chin?
> 
> Man your hyperbole retorts and narrow mindedness are sort of offensive. And "piss poor ground game" - he hasn't had to show us any of his ground game. It's like people talk about how bad Carwin is because he got taken down once.
> 
> Jeez you guys have a tendency to forget how fights end. If you take someone down, then they stand up and knock you TFO, that's a convincing win. Rogers is the exact same size as Lesnar except with brutal KO power - you would give Cain no chance against Lesnar but an absolute easy win over Rogers? Let's not forge that Rogers is ranked, and Valesquez is not.


 im saying Kongo is a MUCH better striker then Buck Rodgers and i could care less about the rankings, he has no ground game pedigree and hasnt been in there with anybody with a great ground game like Cain, i really feel it would be utter domination. I dont see how this is narrow minded, but thinking he has a weak chin cuz he survived and recovered super quickly from 2 would be KO shots from who i consider bar none, the best striker in the HW division isnt...


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> Rogers is a legitimate threat to anyone at HW. He's a serious fighter who trains with great coaches full time, he's got utterly proven KO power and gameplans way more than people think. Watch a few interviews with him or read a little more about him - he's green but he's no joke.
> 
> A HUGE guy with a major reach advantage, easy KO power and fast hands vs a guy who loves to get hit? Tell me honestly, if you bet $1000 on Cain that you wouldn't be worried that he's going to sleep in rd 1.


I'd take that bet easily. Cain would take him down and pound him out. A major reach advantage and KO power doesn't mean much when you can't defend a take down.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

alizio said:


> im saying Kongo is a MUCH better striker then Buck Rodgers and i could care less about the rankings, he has no ground game pedigree and hasnt been in there with anybody with a great ground game like Cain, i really feel it would be utter domination. I dont see how this is narrow minded, but thinking he has a weak chin cuz he survived and recovered super quickly from 2 would be KO shots from who i consider bar none, the best striker in the HW division isnt...


Saying an unranked guy with a questionable chin and a good ability to get hit vs #6 HW with a huge reach and KO power is an easy win is narrow mindedness. Have you seen MMA? "Puncher's chance" is a pretty serious thing. 

Btw are we talking about the same guy?

Buck Rodgers vs Brett Rogers? C'mon ha.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> Saying an unranked guy with a questionable chin and a good ability to get hit vs #6 HW with a huge reach and KO power is an easy win is narrow mindedness. Have you seen MMA? "Puncher's chance" is a pretty serious thing.


 no, u sound like you dont watch mma and why the disrespect to me?? If you watched MMA you would know.... the simplest equation... big, KO power puncher with no ground game vs elite wrestler almost always will GnP.... You are basically giving Cain the perfect matchup for his style, and then saying im being dumb... im finding it hard to even take you serious... how is his chin questionable when he took massive shots from the best HW striker (Argueablely, unarugeably a top 5 hw striker) multiple times and not only recovered, but got a takedown and dominated during and immedately after the shot?? How is that a weak chin?? How is this even remotely a good match up for Rodgers?? Ask anybody if they think this is a good matchup for Rodgers?? LOL its about as bad as it can get. You think he has some magical ground game huh?? I bet you thought Kimbo was the man too..

btw u sounded like rothwell earlier... if u get taken down, u just get back up and KO cain right.... yea, it's that easy... he isnt a relentless cardio machine that constantly goes for takedowns and punishes is, even as you try to get up


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

alizio said:


> no, u sound like you dont watch mma and why the disrespect to me?? If you watched MMA you would know.... the simplest equation... big, KO power puncher with no ground game vs elite wrestler almost always will GnP.... You are basically giving Cain the perfect matchup for his style, and then saying im being dumb... im finding it hard to even take you serious... how is his chin questionable when he took massive shots from the best HW striker (Argueablely, unarugeably a top 5 hw striker) multiple times and not only recovered, but got a takedown and dominated during and immedately after the shot?? How is that a weak chin?? How is this even remotely a good match up for Rodgers?? Ask anybody if they think this is a good matchup for Rodgers?? LOL its about as bad as it can get. You think he has some magical ground game huh?? I bet you thought Kimbo was the man too..
> 
> btw u sounded like rothwell earlier... if u get taken down, u just get back up and KO cain right.... yea, it's that easy... he isnt a relentless cardio machine that constantly goes for takedowns and punishes is, even as you try to get up



Lol did you leave me neg-rep (neutral since you're deep in the red) pretending not to be you?

Let's just keep taking Rogers lightly, see how that worked for the national ***** champion and elite striker Arlovski. He definitely was able to take Rogers down and neutralize him... :confused05: And the "perfect matchup" for Cain... No one with KO power is a perfect matchup for "leave me chin hangin' out" Velasquez.

For you to not understand how much of a puncher's chance Rogers has against any HW, especially Cain, is absurd. Ask GSP what puncher's chance is all about. Or better yet, ask Arlovski.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

lol is this a language barrier problem?? Fine he has a punchers chance... do you know why they call it a punchers chance?? Cuz its a LONGSHOT, like the example you said... GSP.... Sure, Rampage might beat Cain too, if he lands a bomb... Butterbean might too.... great?? Still by you admitting Rodgers has a "punchers chance" either you dont know that means you are conceding he is a huge underdog, or you dont know what "punchers chance" means... if you do, then we arent argueing... yes, Cain beats Rodgers 9/10 times, Rodgers does have a "punchers chance" but its a horrible matchup for him, you keep talking about reach and such... lol, Kongo is 100x more techniqal striker then Rodgers, Cain made a mistake and left his chin out there, he learned from it, i dont think its a repeated pattern, Rothwell didnt touch him...

anyways, keep riding that Buck Rodgers wagon til the wheels fall off, which if i have the date right, is 7 days from now....


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> Lol did you leave me neg-rep (neutral since you're deep in the red) pretending not to be you?
> 
> Let's just keep taking Rogers lightly, see how that worked for the national ***** champion and elite striker Arlovski. He definitely was able to take Rogers down and neutralize him... :confused05: And the "perfect matchup" for Cain... No one with KO power is a perfect matchup for "leave me chin hangin' out" Velasquez.
> 
> For you to not understand how much of a puncher's chance Rogers has against any HW, especially Cain, is absurd. Ask GSP what puncher's chance is all about. Or better yet, ask Arlovski.


I could be a ***** champ, Wrestling champ, Jui-jitsu champ, Judo champ whatever. If I don't utilize those skills and get KO'd by Rodgers it doesn't matter what I am. AA decided to try and use his overrated boxing to beat Rodgers, that's not a good strategy to use against a guy that's known for being a heavy handed striker. AA likes to strike, he got knocked out, doesn't mean everyone would do the same thing. I doubt Cain would try to stand and trade, more likely he'd go right to the clinch or for a take down.

Sure Rodgers has a "punchers chance" against anyone, but a "punchers chance" simply isn't good enough to beat someone that won't play your game or has the skills to avoid getting into a striking battle. Styles make fights and more often than not a guy with take downs and a ground game is going to beat someone that is primarily a striker. There are exceptions like Chuck or CroCop when they were in their prime but Rodgers doesn't have that level of TDD.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

nor does rodgers have the versatile, techniqal striking of chuck or cro cop... post above me is pretty much dead on, its always a horrible stylistic matchup to have a heavy handed brawler/boxer vs a very gifted wrestler


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

DropKick said:


> I could be a ***** champ, Wrestling champ, Jui-jitsu champ, Judo champ whatever. If I don't utilize those skills and get KO'd by Rodgers it doesn't matter what I am. AA decided to try and use his overrated boxing to beat Rodgers, that's not a good strategy to use against a guy that's known for being a heavy handed striker. AA likes to strike, he got knocked out, doesn't mean everyone would do the same thing. I doubt Cain would try to stand and trade, more likely he'd go right to the clinch or for a take down.
> 
> Sure Rodgers has a "punchers chance" against anyone, but a "punchers chance" simply isn't good enough to beat someone that won't play your game or has the skills to avoid getting into a striking battle. Styles make fights and more often than not a guy with take downs and a ground game is going to beat someone that is primarily a striker. There are exceptions like Chuck or CroCop when they were in their prime but Rodgers doesn't have that level of TDD.



It goes largely to the mental game that exists in combat sports.

Fedor is known for his strategic mind, AA is known for the opposite, I'm not too terribly sure about Cain but he displayed a pretty good mind set against Rothwell so I think it's possible to say that he would also be able to employ his style to the fullest effect against Rodgers.


At the same time, however, I don't know why Rodgers wouldn't necessarily be able to do the same to Cain. If Cain shot at me, I would either dodge and upper cut or throw a knee to his head.


Believe it or not guys, there are ways to neutralize boxers in MMA - I know, who'd of thunk?


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

alizio said:


> lol is this a language barrier problem?? Fine he has a punchers chance... do you know why they call it a punchers chance?? Cuz its a LONGSHOT, like the example you said... GSP.... Sure, Rampage might beat Cain too, if he lands a bomb... Butterbean might too.... great?? Still by you admitting Rodgers has a "punchers chance" either you dont know that means you are conceding he is a huge underdog, or you dont know what "punchers chance" means... if you do, then we arent argueing... yes, Cain beats Rodgers 9/10 times, Rodgers does have a "punchers chance" but its a horrible matchup for him, you keep talking about reach and such... lol, Kongo is 100x more techniqal striker then Rodgers, Cain made a mistake and left his chin out there, he learned from it, i dont think its a repeated pattern, Rothwell didnt touch him...
> 
> anyways, keep riding that Buck Rodgers wagon til the wheels fall off, which if i have the date right, is 7 days from now....


So now we're comparing Rampage to Butterbean, saying Rampage only has a puncher's chance against Velasquez (or should I say Cane Velesquz since you keep saying Buck Rodgers), and then saying rothwell didn't punch Cain so Rogers wouldn't? Then saying just because Fedor will beat Rogers that Rogers isn't legit? I guess 80% of all UFC HW champs weren't legit then? Ugh, nice credibility guy. This is why nobody tries to discuss anything with you.



DropKick said:


> I could be a ***** champ, Wrestling champ, Jui-jitsu champ, Judo champ whatever. If I don't utilize those skills and get KO'd by Rodgers it doesn't matter what I am. AA decided to try and use his overrated boxing to beat Rodgers, that's not a good strategy to use against a guy that's known for being a heavy handed striker. AA likes to strike, he got knocked out, doesn't mean everyone would do the same thing. I doubt Cain would try to stand and trade, more likely he'd go right to the clinch or for a take down.
> 
> Sure Rodgers has a "punchers chance" against anyone, but a "punchers chance" simply isn't good enough to beat someone that won't play your game or has the skills to avoid getting into a striking battle. Styles make fights and more often than not a guy with take downs and a ground game is going to beat someone that is primarily a striker. There are exceptions like Chuck or CroCop when they were in their prime but Rodgers doesn't have that level of TDD.


Agreed in part, but we didn't get a CHANCE to see Arlovski's gameplan, because Roger's game plan went perfect and murdered him 22 seconds.  Strikers have the advantage in MMA, and HW strikers have the biggest advantage because the size/reach difference can be so extreme.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> So now we're comparing Rampage to Butterbean, saying Rampage only has a puncher's chance against Velasquez (or should I say Cane Velesquz since you keep saying Buck Rodgers), and then saying rothwell didn't punch Cain so Rogers wouldn't? Then saying just because Fedor will beat Rogers that Rogers isn't legit? I guess 80% of all UFC HW champs weren't legit then? Ugh, nice credibility guy. This is why nobody tries to discuss anything with you.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed in part, but we didn't get a CHANCE to see Arlovski's gameplan, because Roger's game plan went perfect and murdered him 22 seconds.  Strikers have the advantage in MMA, and HW strikers have the biggest advantage because the size/reach difference can be so extreme.


 strikers have the advantage in MMA?? If you have no ground game, like Rodgers, you have no shot of beating the elite, because they all ahve gounnd games, i mean literally, all of them, i will no longer discuss anything with you, you say the exact opposite what common MMA wisdom.... its ALWAYS better to have a ground game with no striking game, then to have a striking game with no ground game, thats how you become Kimbo, or Houston Alexander, who, according to your standards should be the best fighers in the world, punchers chance and all... Is Brock a striker?? Big Nog?? Randy?? Carwin??? Yea... clearly you need to be an all out striker like Kongo or Pat Barry to rule the HW division.

Ive tried to keep my cool, even tho you care constantly calling me names and questioning my intelligence, and i will continue to do so.... but i gotta laugh at your theory on MMA... a ground game base is the most important, even guys who are strikers like Chuck and Cro Cop who dominated at one point had great TDD and GnP when needed.... o well, i expect Fedor to throw Buck around and pound him out, or submit him, maybe he will try to stand and make an exciting fight for the fans and get caught, if that happens, i give you the right to gloat


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

alizio said:


> strikers have the advantage in MMA?? If you have no ground game, like Rodgers, you have no shot of beating the elite, because they all ahve gounnd games, i mean literally, all of them, i will no longer discuss anything with you, you say the exact opposite what common MMA wisdom.... its ALWAYS better to have a ground game with no striking game, then to have a striking game with no ground game, thats how you become Kimbo, or Houston Alexander, who, according to your standards should be the best fighers in the world, punchers chance and all... Is Brock a striker?? Big Nog?? Randy?? Carwin??? Yea... clearly you need to be an all out striker like Kongo or Pat Barry to rule the HW division.
> 
> Ive tried to keep my cool, even tho you care constantly calling me names and questioning my intelligence, and i will continue to do so.... but i gotta laugh at your theory on MMA... a ground game base is the most important, even guys who are strikers like Chuck and Cro Cop who dominated at one point had great TDD and GnP when needed.... o well, i expect Fedor to throw Buck around and pound him out, or submit him, maybe he will try to stand and make an exciting fight for the fans and get caught, if that happens, i give you the right to gloat



Sorry wait... so MMA matches start with both fighters on the ground? 

Keep in mind you know the names of a LOT of one dimensional strikers... but how many one dimensional wrestlers do you know the name of (besides Lesnar)?

Probably none, because they don't win any matches and therefor don't get in the UFC. 

Credibility shot #200: You think Carwin isn't a striker somehow? What is he then? Show me please a fight where he's used his wrestling to dominate or gain an advantage?


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> Sorry wait... so MMA matches start with both fighters on the ground?
> 
> Keep in mind you know the names of a LOT of one dimensional strikers... but how many one dimensional wrestlers do you know the name of (besides Lesnar)?
> 
> ...


 having KO power doesnt make you a striker, he is VERY sloppy and leaves alot of openings in his striking to be considered a striker imo, he def has power, which you seem to think equates into being a superior MMArtist. Every HW has a ground game, instead of me naming pure wrestlers who have dominated (which is prob more then any other martial art form of one dimensional champions, from hw's to lw's), name the true elite HWs with no ground game creditentials like Rodgers has??? No black belt in BJJ or wrestling backgrounds.... go ahead.... look em up... ill wait for that long list of pure strikers on top of the HW game... do you think Fedor is a pure striker with no ground game too?? Of course its better to have both striking and ground like he has, but if you could only have one, you think its better to be heavy handed then a great grappler?? i find that interesting, as it goes against all conventional MMA wisdom, perhaps you are on to something.... but i doubt it... even the best striker in any division imo, Anderson Silva lost matches due to lack of ground skills, so he went and secured his BJJ blackbelt and is unbeaten since, not a coincidence imo


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

alizio said:


> having KO power doesnt make you a striker, he is VERY sloppy and leaves alot of openings in his striking to be considered a striker imo, he def has power, which you seem to think equates into being a superior MMArtist. Every HW has a ground game, instead of me naming pure wrestlers who have dominated (which is prob more then any other martial art form of one dimensional champions, from hw's to lw's), name the true elite HWs with no ground game creditentials like Rodgers has??? No black belt in BJJ or wrestling backgrounds.... go ahead.... look em up... ill wait for that long list of pure strikers on top of the HW game... do you think Fedor is a pure striker with no ground game too?? Of course its better to have both striking and ground like he has, but if you could only have one, you think its better to be heavy handed then a great grappler?? i find that interesting, as it goes against all conventional MMA wisdom, perhaps you are on to something.... but i doubt it... even the best striker in any division imo, Anderson Silva lost matches due to lack of ground skills, so he went and secured his BJJ blackbelt and is unbeaten since, not a coincidence imo


Shane Carwin, the guy who's ranked one above Rogers?

He was a Div II wrestler ten years ago but has showed zero wrestling in his UFC fights and relies SOLELY on his striking. 


You're right that a well-rounded fighter is a better fighter, but that's an obvious fact. What we're talking about is a good wrestler with ok striking vs. a bigger fighter with clean vicious KO power. 

There's a reason people are giving Rogers a slight chance against Fedor but no one credible would give Valesquez a slight chance. Because there's no such thing as "a grappler's chance."


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> Shane Carwin, the guy who's ranked one above Rogers?
> 
> He was a Div II wrestler ten years ago but has showed zero wrestling in his UFC fights and relies SOLELY on his striking.
> 
> ...


 styles make matchups, Fedor def is a worse matchup for Cain then Rodgers is, but both Rodgers and Cain are bad matchups for him. Make no mistake, Rodgers is a HUGE underdog here, and he will get pummelled, its a very safe fight for Fedor, which is why his management wants it. But as far as ive ever heard anybody say having a ground base is always the best to start MMA, and in a match of great wrestler with limited striking vs great striker with limited ground, i would almost always go the way of the ground game, your making it like Rodgers is some monster, but Rothwell was also very tall and very heavy, it almost makes em easier to takedown, and with little ground game, he will struggle to get back up, badly, like Kongo did, this is my opinion of course, it would be a wet dream if Buck somehow KO'd Fedor, cuz it would kill his legacy and Buck would probably be open to coming to the UFC and you could hype him up as the guy that beat Fedor and have Cain murder him in a number 1 contender match


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

khoveraki, Carwin did use his wrestling in the UFC. 

He TD'd Neil Wain and GnP'd him. 

He also used it in his fight with GG to get back up from under him.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

it's also easier to learn how to strike then it is to learn how to grapple, wrestlers and BJJ guys have this crazy work ethic mentality and cardio from their respective grappling sports that most do evovle into good/great strikers fast, whereas most guys who suck on the ground, dont last long in the game, or always suck on the ground, its a hard area to improve, as most guys start learning at a very young age and you are lightyears behind and its very techniqal, whereas striking, if you have power, your halfway there. Again, pretty conventional MMA wisdom imo, besides GSP i cant think of many guys that came in the game without wrestling pedigrees that went on to any serious success as ground game guys, but plenty of wrestlers have transformed into good/great strikers.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

A Silva is one... 

One reason for what you're talking about is that most good strikers/boxers don't go into MMA because that's not where the money is. 

But yeah grappling (wrestling/BJJ) is definitely the best base for MMA. I thought Royce Gracie proved it to all of us at UFC 1 :thumb02:


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

Xerxes said:


> A Silva is one...
> 
> One reason for what you're talking about is that most good strikers/boxers don't go into MMA because that's not where the money is.
> 
> But yeah grappling (wrestling/BJJ) is definitely the best base for MMA. I thought Royce Gracie proved it to all of us at UFC 1 :thumb02:


 well, we are talking about humans, not Gods like Anderson Silva ;P but i still wouldnt call him a ground game guy, he still much prefers to strike and only ends up on the ground when the other guy puts him there, but i hear what you are saying, but he is also superman and could prob learn to levitate if he wanted ;P


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

I re-read your post a 2nd time and I get your point now.


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## AmRiT (Apr 23, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> Lesnar is a straight wrestler (not saying great wrestler) with bad standup. *Mir is a straight BJJ guy who's never subbed anyone with a BJJ background.* JDS is a pure striker (one who couldn't get the best of a daydreaming, slippery old CroCop until he punched him in the eye). Cain is a wrestler with questionable punching power. Carwin is generally a one-dimensional heavyhitter.


Ever heard of Roberto Traven. I guess you haven't...


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## Samborules (Jun 16, 2009)

Guys every high ranking HW has one punch KO potential, I am just saying that Grim is equally as unproven as Cain is that is all. Can he beat Fedor, maybe, but right now from what I have seen, I do not believe so. Please lets keep it civil.


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