# Anderson or Fedor??



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Who is the p4p best fighter?? i used to believe that it was Anderson Silva but after tonight's performance i think i changed my mind. In my opinion the best p4p fighter has to have the drive constantly and not take a fight lightly. With Anderson's show boating it made me feel as he was taking the fight lightly. All the people saying his the best fighter in the world might have goten to his head and i think it will end up catching up to him. Fedor on the other hand i have never seen cocky or show boat and he sure as hell seems like he has a drive every fight his been in.


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## Future_Fighter (Feb 6, 2008)

I think fedor because he chooses when to end the fight, Some example's would be against kevin randleman, mark hunt, fujita, They all get fedor pissed and pay for it lol. Also because he is a all around a complete fighter.


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## The Dude Abides (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm extremly fickle so i'll pick Fedor tonight. But if Arlovski goes more than a round i might be back to hugging Andersons nuts.


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## footodors (Aug 26, 2007)

Anderson needs to move up to 205 and stay there, otherwise he may show up in his next fight blindfolded.
He's getting cocky and lazy at 185


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Fedor, you can't showboat when you face him.


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## Entity (Aug 18, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> Fedor, you can't showboat when you face him.


Agreed, and he never showboats, he just hands you your ass.


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

Entity said:


> Agreed, and he never showboats, he just hands you your ass.


I completely agree with what you just said so mark another one for fedor for best p4p


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## AceFranklin88 (Apr 21, 2007)

Fedor. It's always been Fedor. It always will be Fedor. The only "complete" Mixed Martial Artist as of right now.


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

Isn't it kind of unfair (for Fedor) to even consider or include him in a P4P list by most of your guys' definition?


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

Easily Fedor because the guy goes in, does his job, and leaves. He doesn't try to be heroic or flashy, he just gets on with the ass beating. Fedor is a true professional. He's also more complete than Anderson and has showed superhuman-like characteristics (getting spiked on his head and recovering immediately, beating the world's largest MMA fighter in under 3 minutes.)


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

i'm still w/ anderson thank you very much


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## _Destruction_ (Oct 7, 2008)

I say fedor.After andersons showboating and all that shit, anderson didnt even fight that good vs cote.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Even though Anderson fought a weird fight, I still pick him. He did win every round by the way. He has done more recently than Fedor has.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Even though Anderson fought a weird fight, I still pick him. He did win every round by the way. He has done more recently than Fedor has.


like 5 or 6x more


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> i'm still w/ anderson thank you very much


Yeah. I mean have you guys watched Fedor vs. Hunt? Fedor can have a somewhat subpar (not to say horrible; he almost got lay and prayed by a fat kickboxer!!!) performance as well. Do NOT let the Sylvia fight take away your recollection of all other previos Fedor fights. 

If you STILL think Fedor is the #1 p4p fighter, go ahead! He might be! But please, don't let Anderson's recent performance get in the way. good fighters have bad performances and lose, great fighters have bad performances and still win (Fedor, Anderson for instance)


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## Tilen (Jun 20, 2007)

joppp said:


> Yeah. I mean have you guys watched Fedor vs. Hunt? Fedor can have a somewhat subpar (not to say horrible; he almost got lay and prayed by a fat kickboxer!!!) performance as well. Do NOT let the Sylvia fight take away your recollection of all other previos Fedor fights.
> 
> If you STILL think Fedor is the #1 p4p fighter, go ahead! He might be! But please, don't let Anderson's recent performance get in the way. good fighters have bad performances and lose, great fighters have bad performances and still win (Fedor, Anderson for instance)


Anderson has some legit defeats, he cannot be great according to your definition


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Absolutely fedor.


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

Tilen said:


> Anderson has some legit defeats, he cannot be great according to your definition


Asa a matter of fact, I don't think he was as great as he is now back then (the fight with Chonan was actually pretty even according to some, and Takese? man....). I think that he's grown this bad ass pretty recently, about the time he entered the UFC and started training with Nog. 

But correct observation, my definition kind of excludes the possibility of defeat. What I really meant was that a great fighter shouldn't be too dependent on weather he has a bad or a good day; that's being inconsistent. If a great fighter has a bad day, he will still be dangerous and able to win. (However, if he then faces another great fighter he micht lose anyways). So I sorta have to modify my statement a little. But you get my point, right?


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## out 4 the count (Oct 13, 2008)

The fact Fedor quite often fights people a lot bigger than him gives him the best p4p title in my opinion.

Silva is amazing, don't get me wrong. I love watching his fights and I find his style almost mesmerising to watch. All his fights though are against people roughly around the same weight. The same cannot be said for Fedor.


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

joppp said:


> Yeah. I mean have you guys watched Fedor vs. Hunt? Fedor can have a somewhat subpar (not to say horrible; he almost got lay and prayed by a fat kickboxer!!!) performance as well. Do NOT let the Sylvia fight take away your recollection of all other previos Fedor fights.
> 
> If you STILL think Fedor is the #1 p4p fighter, go ahead! He might be! But please, don't let Anderson's recent performance get in the way. good fighters have bad performances and lose, great fighters have bad performances and still win (Fedor, Anderson for instance)


You also forgot to mention that Fedor had a broken toe and couldn't train 3 weeks prior to this match. I'll be the first one to say that that wasn't anybody's fault, but Fedor, but he still managed to show up with an injury and win. That makes him consistent no matter with what disability he's got.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

its crazy when people pick silva over fedor ...


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

dontazo said:


> its crazy when people pick silva over fedor ...


Yeah because Fedor has beaten so many ranked fighters in recent years? Wait a minute Sylvia was his first ranked heavyweight in three years.



out 4 the count said:


> The fact Fedor quite often fights people a lot bigger than him gives him the best p4p title in my opinion.
> 
> Silva is amazing, don't get me wrong. I love watching his fights and I find his style almost mesmerising to watch. All his fights though are against people roughly around the same weight. The same cannot be said for Fedor.


The fact that Fedor often fights large sized bums shouldn't propel him to a higher status. Silva is the p4p champ now. Fedor was the p4p champ in 2005.


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## Tilen (Jun 20, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Yeah because Fedor has beaten so many ranked fighters in recent years? Wait a minute Sylvia was his first ranked heavyweight in three years.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that Fedor often fights large sized bums shouldn't propel him to a higher status. Silva is the p4p champ now. Fedor was the p4p champ in 2005.


why while considering the p4p status only three last years are relevant, and not for example five? 

Anderson is like 2 inches taller than Fedor, let them fight at the weight they walk around, or feel most comfortable at. Do you have doubts who would take this fight?


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

Fedor would smash Anderson and send him home...


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## AceFranklin88 (Apr 21, 2007)

"ZOMG FEDRO IS TEH GHEY BCUZ HE DUZNT FITE NE GOOD FITERZ!!!"

I don't care if he hasn't fought much top competition. The fact is this: Fedor has the best skillset in MMA. Period. Fighting less top competition does not diminish that skillset. So Fedor is the best. That's it.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

AceFranklin88 said:


> "ZOMG FEDRO IS TEH GHEY BCUZ HE DUZNT FITE NE GOOD FITERZ!!!"
> 
> I don't care if he hasn't fought much top competition. The fact is this: Fedor has the best skillset in MMA. Period. Fighting less top competition does not diminish that skillset. So Fedor is the best. That's it.


but how do you know his skillset holds up against top competition if he hasn't faced top competition?

the fact is, fedor beating Sylvia was nice, but it was his only revelant win in years....and for that matter i don't see how he can be ranked #1 p4p


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## smooth810 (Apr 13, 2007)

I'm going with Fedor..Anderson pissed me off last night....He acted like an idiot the first two rounds..with his Roy Jones JR. shit.....I cknow he was winning and wasn't getting hurt...but he actually showing up Cote by not fighting hard...IMO


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## Tilen (Jun 20, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> but how do you know his skillset holds up against top competition if he hasn't faced top competition?
> 
> the fact is, fedor beating Sylvia was nice, but it was his only revelant win in years....and for that matter i don't see how he can be ranked #1 p4p


in last 4 years fedor has beaten among others: Tim Sylvia, Mark Coleman, Mark Hunt, CroCop, Big Nog.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

so when fedor ko's aa people will say that aa is washed up ? and what about barnett? people just hate fedor


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## Future_Fighter (Feb 6, 2008)

really not a argument its obviously fedor


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

face iT! FEDOR IS THE BEST FIGHTER IN THE WORLD


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Yeah because Fedor has beaten so many ranked fighters in recent years? Wait a minute Sylvia was his first ranked heavyweight in three years.


Mark Hunt was ranked in the top 10 when Fedor fought him as well, smart guy.


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## elardo (Jul 8, 2007)

Fedor


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

I just hope some of you forum members didn't think I was hating on Fedor, cause he's my #2 fav HW!

I was just saying he doesn't have 36 second KO's or anything like that in every single ones of his fights. He sometimes struggles but he is almost always winning during that struggle.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

fedor is a warrior . man cant wait to hear excuses after fedor knocks out aa


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## putmeonhold (Jul 10, 2006)

*Fedor*

No need to say anything else. Everyone else has already said what needs to be said.​


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Fedor.

Yeah, that sounds about right.


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

I've always thought Fedor was the p4p best fighter, but after last night Im even more sure.
I'd go so far to even say GSP is a better p4p fighter than Anderson.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

yea imho fedor just goes and fights he does not dance or sing or help his opponents to stand up ... he just FIGHTS !


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

How can any one say Fedor is ahead of Anderson in the p4p rankings is beyond me.

Fedor is in by far the weakest division in MMA, he has only 1 win over a top opponent in like 2 or 3 years while Anderson has demolished 8 top 10 opponents in the same amount of time.

What argument have you got to say he is better p4p, please tell me????


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

joppp said:


> Asa a matter of fact, I don't think he was as great as he is now back then (the fight with Chonan was actually pretty even according to some, and Takese? man....). I think that he's grown this bad ass pretty recently, about the time he entered the UFC and started training with Nog.
> 
> But correct observation, my definition kind of excludes the possibility of defeat. What I really meant was that a great fighter shouldn't be too dependent on weather he has a bad or a good day; that's being inconsistent. If a great fighter has a bad day, he will still be dangerous and able to win. (However, if he then faces another great fighter he micht lose anyways). So I sorta have to modify my statement a little. But you get my point, right?


I don't know what to think of the Takase fight. Daiju completely owned Anderson on the ground. Such a weird fight.

Anderson, right now, has beaten more top 10 guys, so him. Fedor's more talented, though.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Who sent me negative rep, saying "i disagree"???

How can you disagree? i wasnt stating my opinions i was stating the facts.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

it was not me bro. 
but the fact is fedor is number 1


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## DMF62469 (Apr 25, 2008)

Just look at my avatar to find my answer.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Tilen said:


> in last 4 years fedor has beaten among others: Tim Sylvia, Mark Coleman, Mark Hunt, CroCop, Big Nog.


Way to use two completely irrelevant fighters like Hunt and Coleman to make you're argument. The point is who is the best fighter now? I would say the guy who is fighting the best competition now, like Silva. Not the guy who has been dodging top competition for years, like Fedor.


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## Future_Fighter (Feb 6, 2008)

> Way to use two completely irrelevant fighters like Hunt and Coleman to make you're argument. The point is who is the best fighter now? I would say the guy who is fighting the best competition now, like Silva. Not the guy who has been dodging top competition for years, like Fedor.


Tim sylvia and Andrei arlovski yeah man totally dodging top competition :confused02:...


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Future_Fighter said:


> Tim sylvia and Andrei arlovski yeah man totally dodging top competition :confused02:...


They're not the top of the division, but I would say wins over both of them would put Fedor in the top 2/3 p4p. Remind me when Fedor is fighting Arlovski? However I would say that fights like Choi and Lindland (at heavyweight) would be dodging the best. Even his last few fights in PRIDE weren't against top competition: Hunt, Coleman, and super impressive win over Wagner da Concaeicao Martins. Who's that you may ask? He's a fat guy who got submitted by Butterbean. But yeah Fedor fights the best. One win over #5 guy doesn't shoot you to the top of the p4p rankings, when you've been fighting non-heavyweights and non-contenders for three years


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

ok than who is top hw? nog? no shit! he beat nog twice! and dont tell me coutore. after aa he will beat barnett . fedor is unstoppable


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> They're not the top of the division, but I would say wins over both of them would put Fedor in the top 2/3 p4p. Remind me when Fedor is fighting Arlovski? However I would say that fights like Choi and Lindland (at heavyweight) would be dodging the best. Even his last few fights in PRIDE weren't against top competition: Hunt, Coleman, and super impressive win over Wagner da Concaeicao Martins. Who's that you may ask? He's a fat guy who got submitted by Butterbean. But yeah Fedor fights the best.


How many times are we going to do this? It's funny, for someone who accused me of being a Fedor nuthugger you sure do find all the threads about him. 

Fedor has already beat almost every top HW out there and never was a fight really close. So you just want him to have a bunch of rematches? There are 3 possible top HW's Fedor has not fought and one of those he is going to. Couture for obvious reasons the fight hasn't happened and Barnett has turned down the fight for Pride and Affliction. So who else?


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

DJ Syko said:


> How can any one say Fedor is ahead of Anderson in the p4p rankings is beyond me.
> 
> Fedor is in by far the weakest division in MMA, he has only 1 win over a top opponent in like 2 or 3 years while Anderson has demolished 8 top 10 opponents in the same amount of time.
> 
> What argument have you got to say he is better p4p, please tell me????


Weakest division in MMA? The HW division is more stacked than the middleweight division. Arlovski, Sylvia, Nogueira, Werdum, Dos Santos, Antonio Silva, Gonzaga, Barnett, Aleksander Emelianenko, Kharitonov, Overeem. Yeah, _REALLY_ weak compared to the middleweight division. 

The MW division doesn't have an equal balance of elite strikers, grapplers and wrestlers, it has amazing grapplers, but one or two top tier strikers (Silva being one of them). I'd argue that the top 10 heavyweights I listed are just as if not more talented at their specific skills than the top 10 middleweights are, although one could argue that the MWs are more well-rounded.




rockybalboa25 said:


> Way to use two completely irrelevant fighters like Hunt and Coleman to make you're argument. The point is who is the best fighter now? I would say the guy who is fighting the best competition now, like Silva. Not the guy who has been dodging top competition for years, like Fedor.


Your point was that Fedor has fought only 1 top ten in 3 years, which is wrong. Mark Hunt WAS ranked in the top 10 when Fedor beat him, so stop turning around and using today as a reference point for an achievement in the past, you look desperate to discredit probably the greatest fighter to partake in MMA.

Please prove that Fedor has been "dodging" people. He's fought Cro Cop, Nogueira (2.5x), Sylvia, and soon he'll fight Andrei Arlovski. REALLY looks like he's dodging bullets, doesn't it? :sarcastic12:


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Way to use two completely irrelevant fighters like Hunt and Coleman to make you're argument. The point is who is the best fighter now? I would say the guy who is fighting the best competition now, like Silva. Not the guy who has been dodging top competition for years, like Fedor.


Even if you think Fedor hasn't foughten top competition in years, if you say it's cause he's dodging fighters, you're an idiot. 

And, Fedor beat Tim Sylvia, a top 5 HW generally regarded at #4 (sometimes #3 if they don't count Randy), and Silva's best win is against the generally regarded #3 MW, in Franklin. If anything his win over Sylvia shows he hasn't lost skills.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

dontazo said:


> ok than who is top hw? nog? no shit! he beat nog twice! and dont tell me coutore. after aa he will beat barnett . fedor is unstoppable


First of all there is no date for the Arlovski fight. There's no guarantee that Affliction will be able to make that or any fight happen with Fedor. Secondly Barnett is not fighting for Affliction again, because they wanted him to accept a 80/20 percent fight purse for a Fedor fight. 

Yes Couture would be an obvious choice. As a wrestler with good submission defense, he is exactly the kind of fighter who presents a problem for Fedor. If Lindland could take him down, why not Couture. It would be especially bad for him in cage, because he couldn't hold the ropes. Also just because a fighter beats a guy almost four years ago doesn't mean that he can't be surpassed by that fighter. By that logic GSP should have never gotten another shot at Hughes. So NOG should still be in the picture. The winner of the UFC tournament will be the #1 contender for Fedor's top heavyweight spot. Basically I don't see how Fedor can claim to be the best and not fight the obvious #1 contender for top Heavyweight.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> First of all there is no date for the Arlovski fight.


January 24th.


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## Danomac (Oct 15, 2006)

I always look at the night of Affliction's debut vs the UFC's counter attack with the slaped together fight night. Silva fought a guy who is pretty much a can at LHW and took him over a minute to beat him. Fedore fought Sylvia who, whether people like to admit it or not, was a top 5 HW at the time and destroyed him. 

That's just how I look at it. Plus overall, Fedor has fought tougher opponents.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Where did the 80/20 split come from in a Barnett/Fedor fight because I haven't seen anywhere where that was reported, not even from Barnett himself.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

uh yea and fedor subbed lindland , coutore will get knocked out ... even if he takes fedor down he will get arm bared


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Your point was that Fedor has fought only 1 top ten in 3 years, which is wrong. Mark Hunt WAS ranked in the top 10 when Fedor beat him, so stop turning around and using today as a reference point for an achievement in the past, you look desperate to discredit probably the greatest fighter to partake in MMA.
> 
> Please prove that Fedor has been "dodging" people. He's fought Cro Cop, Nogueira (2.5x), Sylvia, and soon he'll fight Andrei Arlovski. REALLY looks like he's dodging bullets, doesn't it? :sarcastic12:


Who the hell ranked Hunt in the top ten? He was a 5-2 fighter with the only good win being a BS decision over CroCop. He was offered more than any fighter in UFC history to fight Randy Couture. And don't bring up it was about ***** tournament BS. It was a two fight contract that would have easily been up before the ***** tournament. That's not dodging?






rockybalboa25 said:


> First of all there is no date for the Arlovski fight. There's no guarantee that Affliction will be able to make that or any fight happen with Fedor. Secondly Barnett is not fighting for Affliction again, because they wanted him to accept a 80/20 percent fight purse for a Fedor fight.
> 
> Yes Couture would be an obvious choice. As a wrestler with good submission defense, he is exactly the kind of fighter who presents a problem for Fedor. If Lindland could take him down, why not Couture. It would be especially bad for him in cage, because he couldn't hold the ropes. Also just because a fighter beats a guy almost four years ago doesn't mean that he can't be surpassed by that fighter. By that logic GSP should have never gotten another shot at Hughes. So NOG should still be in the picture. The winner of the UFC tournament will be the #1 contender for Fedor's top heavyweight spot. Basically I don't see how Fedor can claim to be the best and not fight the obvious #1 contender for top Heavyweight.





MLS said:


> January 24th.


I would like to see actual confirmation that Fedor will be fighting Arlovski on that date, instead of just rumor.



GMW said:


> Even if you think Fedor hasn't foughten top competition in years, if you say it's cause he's dodging fighters, you're an idiot.
> 
> And, Fedor beat Tim Sylvia, a top 5 HW generally regarded at #4 (sometimes #3 if they don't count Randy), and Silva's best win is against the generally regarded #3 MW, in Franklin. If anything his win over Sylvia shows he hasn't lost skills.


First of all I don't see how anyone could rank Sylvia over #5. Since he lost to Couture and NOG, and he isn't better than Barnett. Secondly the first time Anderson Silva fought Franklin he was ranked #1, the second time he was #2/3 depending on where yo put untested Filho. Henderson was also ranked #2/3. Marquardt was ranked at least #5. But you're right one win over #5 is better.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Weakest division in MMA? The HW division is more stacked than the middleweight division. Arlovski, Sylvia, Nogueira, Werdum, Dos Santos, Antonio Silva, Gonzaga, Barnett, Aleksander Emelianenko, Kharitonov, Overeem. Yeah, _REALLY_ weak compared to the middleweight division.


fedor's fought ...what...2 of them?


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

rockybalboa25 said:


> First of all I don't see how anyone could rank Sylvia over #5. Since he lost to Couture and NOG, and he isn't better than Barnett. Secondly the first time Anderson Silva fought Franklin he was ranked #1, the second time he was #2/3 depending on where yo put untested Filho. Henderson was also ranked #2/3. Marquardt was ranked at least #5. But you're right one win over #5 is better.


I recall in their first fight, or in that time period, it was generally Matt Lindland, Paulo Filho then Rich Franklin. Marquardt was never top 5, Hendo may of been. 

My point is, Fedor has beaten a very solid opponent in Tim sylvia, enough where we can gauge his skills in regards to aging. He showed he still dominates.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I would like to see actual confirmation that Fedor will be fighting Arlovski on that date, instead of just rumor.


From Affliction themselves.

http://www.afflictionclothing.com/dayofreckoning/

http://www.mmarated.com/blogs/blog/..._arlovski_on_january_affliction_show-866.html

http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/10/22/affliction-makes-fedor-vs-arlovski-for-jan-24-official/

Now if you would be so kind as to reciprocate and provide me with a link to this 80/20 split for Fedor/Barnett.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Who the hell ranked Hunt in the top ten? He was a 5-2 fighter with the only good win being a BS decision over CroCop.


Before fighting Fedor, Hunt had only lost to one heavyweight, that being #4 Josh Barnett, the win over Cro Cop broke him into the top 10, kind of like what happened with Gonzaga.



rockybalboa25 said:


> He was offered more than any fighter in UFC history to fight Randy Couture.


Randy did the same thing, except I have a source, unlike you:

http://www.mmafightline.com/news/2007/1025/randy_couture_306559.shtml




rockybalboa25 said:


> And don't bring up it was about ***** tournament BS. It was a two fight contract that would have easily been up before the ***** tournament. That's not dodging?


You actually believe Dana would allow Fedor to come to the UFC, beat the champ then leave after one defense? Sorry, but LOLOLOLOLOL. 

No one except Fedor's managers/Fedor and Dana know what happened at the negotiations, so I don't think you should play the keyboard lawyer and act like you know what you're talking about, as it's quite clear you don't.



rockybalboa25 said:


> I would like to see actual confirmation that Fedor will be fighting Arlovski on that date, instead of just rumor.


Google, heard of it?:

http://www.mma-king.com/2008/10/11/...i-confirmed-for-january-affliction-show-1096/




Aaronyman said:


> fedor's fought ...what...2 of them?


Har-har. If you haven't noticed Aaron, the landscape of the world heavyweight division has drastically changed over the course of the last few years. When Fedor beat Herring, Herring was a top 10. Is Herring top 10 anymore? No. When Fedor fought Cro Cop he was #2/#3, is he now? No, he'd be lucky to be even considered top 10. A fair number of the guys Fedor fought at the time in Pride were considered top 10, and ended up falling down the ranks afterwards (Hunt and Cro Cop being prime examples).


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Rocky, if you choose not to look at any of the three links I provided about when the Fedor/Arlovski fight is then look at F>A's link and I think you might find this paragraph interesting because I'm almost certain you have seen something similar to this before. I'll still wait on that link of the 80/20 split for the Fedor/Barnett fight.



> Fedor has a lifetime professional record of 29-1-1. His lone "loss" wasn't really a loss - Fedor was fighting in a tournament and was the victim of an illegal elbow to the head. Fedor was cut and was unable to continue in the tournament, so he was given the "loss". In any other circumstance, Fedor would have won the fight by disqualification and would have still been undefeated.


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## aimres (Oct 16, 2006)

*Anderson is better* and last night he was looking for an amazing finish. Not a rear naked choke.


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

aimres said:


> *Anderson is better* and last night he was looking for an amazing finish. Not a rear naked choke.


What? What the hell does that mean?


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

aimres said:


> *Anderson is better* and last night he was looking for an amazing finish. Not a rear naked choke.


Not exactly sure what you're trying to say, but a rear naked choke is always pleasing to watch. If you disagree, find a new sport.

Fedor vs Anderson in the pound for pound debate will go on for a long time. Right now it's about what is more impressive:

Anderson Silva - Cleaned out his division with exciting wins for the last few years.

Fedor - Cleaned out his division some years back, still considered undefeated, just beat a top ranked heavyweight in Sylvia, as such, still shows dominance.

Fedor is, in general, a more decorated fighter that cleaned out his division back when he was very active and to this day is still good enough to take out top guys with ease. Not to mention he is undefeated(I shouldn't have to explain this).


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## _Destruction_ (Oct 7, 2008)

I really want fedor to come to the ufc.What will he do when affliction folds or gets accepted back into the ufc? Fight in some japanese org. where they pay him peanuts? Or just quit mma altogether? 

Dana should just let fedor compete in ***** tournaments.Those tournaments are not even popular outside of russia.They certainly arent a threat to the ufc.Fedors not going to get the recognition he deserves if he wont fight in the UFC.


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

_Destruction_ said:


> I really want fedor to come to the ufc.What will he do when affliction folds or gets accepted back into the ufc? Fight in some japanese org. where they pay him peanuts? Or just quit mma altogether?
> 
> Dana should just let fedor compete in ***** tournaments.Those tournaments are not even popular outside of russia.They certainly arent a threat to the ufc.Fedors not going to get the recognition he deserves if he wont fight in the UFC.


It's not about the popularity of the ***** tournies, it's about the possibility of Fedor getting injured while at one of those.

And Japanese Orgs. pay Fedor a TON of money.


----------



## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Har-har. If you haven't noticed Aaron, *the landscape of the world heavyweight division has drastically changed over the course of the last few years. *When Fedor beat Herring, Herring was a top 10. Is Herring top 10 anymore? No. When Fedor fought Cro Cop he was #2/#3, is he now? No, he'd be lucky to be even considered top 10. A fair number of the guys Fedor fought at the time in Pride were considered top 10, and ended up falling down the ranks afterwards (Hunt and Cro Cop being prime examples).


thats exactly it. if you look @ the ww division 3 years ago lets say, do you realize how much more talented the weight division is now than it was in 2005? there are ALOT more top guys....same goes for HW...these guys who "fell through the ranks" did so b/c they got weeded out by younger, better fighters....the landscape of the HW division HAS changed, and Fedor hasn't proven he can deal with them...

and it is for that reason, fedor can not be considered the p4p best fighter right now....as he hasn't proven he can beat the new influx of HW contenders


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Before fighting Fedor, Hunt had only lost to one heavyweight, that being #4 Josh Barnett, the win over Cro Cop broke him into the top 10, kind of like what happened with Gonzaga.


So you're saying that Hunt was moved up into the top ten with a bogus win over Cro Cop? Since everyone likes links, do you have a link for that? I'm just being a dick. I know that mma sites don't archive their rankings that far back in most cases.





Fedor>all said:


> Randy did the same thing, except I have a source, unlike you:
> 
> http://www.mmafightline.com/news/2007/1025/randy_couture_306559.shtml


Yes, it's amazing that Randy turned down a fight with the #1 fighter in the world for his first fight out of retirement. I mean it's not like he had been out of the sport for a year. It obviously wouldn't his first heavyweight fight in five years. It's not important that he hadn't fought or trained in a ring in six years is it? There's a big difference in the two, if you look at subjectively.




Fedor>all said:


> You actually believe Dana would allow Fedor to come to the UFC, beat the champ then leave after one defense? Sorry, but LOLOLOLOLOL.
> 
> No one except Fedor's managers/Fedor and Dana know what happened at the negotiations, so I don't think you should play the keyboard lawyer and act like you know what you're talking about, as it's quite clear you don't.


I will concede that we need to take the things that Dana says with a grain of salt.






MLS said:


> Rocky, if you choose not to look at any of the three links I provided about when the Fedor/Arlovski fight is then look at F>A's link and I think you might find this paragraph interesting because I'm almost certain you have seen something similar to this before. I'll still wait on that link of the 80/20 split for the Fedor/Barnett fight.


I can't find the link again, so I'm sure you'll say it never existed. Basically it was comparing what the fighters would make, if the contracts were to stay the same. 

As far as the Affliction show you got me. I had just read an article in which Atencio said he didn't know who or who Fedor was fighting. Amazingly enough it was from an interview that happened five days before the fight announcement. All this other stuff takes away from I think the point of the forum. Which is who is the better fighter. In my OPINION, because anyone who says they can prove who is better p4p is lying, Anderson Silva has fought the better fighters recently. He has destroyed pretty much everyone he fought in his title run. He has fought more ranked fighters. He has fought higher ranked fighters. I do not dispute that for his weight division (you can't use the honey I shrunk the Fedor argument, because obviously lighter guys have more speed and heavier guys have more power) Fedor may have greater skills. In my opinion that isn't the measure of the best fighter. The best fighter is the one who has taken on the best fighters. Fedor hasn't done so recently. I do think it is largely due to his managers. If I were him I'd be watching my money. I've said this before, in 2004-2005 I would say it was impossible to argue that Fedor wasn't the #1 p4p fighter. His skills may not have changed, but the level of his accomplishments has declined. No one can deny what he did in the past, but the past few years for Fedor have almost been like a retirement. Even if you count Hunt a legitimate contender, Fedor went a year and half with a fight against a can and a middleweight, who he had to hold the ropes to beat. Think about it if wasn't Fedor would a win over Sylvia cantapult that guy to #1 p4p. Of course not. In sports you are judged for what you are doing now, not what you did years ago. That would be like when Jordan came back to play for the Wizards, declaring him the best player in the NBA.


----------



## Future_Fighter (Feb 6, 2008)

> Anderson is better and last night he was looking for an amazing finish. Not a rear naked choke.


That's hilarious...


----------



## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I can't find the link again, so I'm sure you'll say it never existed. Basically it was comparing what the fighters would make, if the contracts were to stay the same.


Amazing, you question what I post and what I posted can easily be verified yet you have once again posted something you can't prove. Actually it's really funny to bring it up even though you know you can't prove it and saying that I won't believe it existed because you can't find it is a cop out. I have Barnett's thought's on why he turned down the fight and he never mentions an 80/20 split, which with as outspoken as Josh is you would believe he would.


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## Mjr (Apr 22, 2007)

Haha, Rocky man you really are misguided,
Did you just catch on to MMA via the TUF? 

Anderson is not even close to fedor, not even close, if you believe he is then you have bought into the UFC's hype machine. UFC has the best p4p hype machine, not the best p4p fighter.


----------



## Judoka (Feb 23, 2007)

DJ Syko said:


> How can any one say Fedor is ahead of Anderson in the p4p rankings is beyond me.
> 
> Fedor is in by far the weakest division in MMA, he has only 1 win over a top opponent in like 2 or 3 years while Anderson has demolished 8 top 10 opponents in the same amount of time.
> 
> What argument have you got to say he is better p4p, please tell me????


The current Heavyweight division in the UFC is weak, the worldwide Heavyweight division is far from it.

Fedor is a machine. The way he cut Minotauro's BJJ out of the fight, he looked like he did it with ease. Fedor beats the top fighters in their specialty areas, it takes one hell of a fighter do that.


----------



## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

Aaronyman said:


> thats exactly it. if you look @ the ww division 3 years ago lets say, do you realize how much more talented the weight division is now than it was in 2005? there are ALOT more top guys....same goes for HW...these guys who "fell through the ranks" did so b/c they got weeded out by younger, better fighters....the landscape of the HW division HAS changed, and Fedor hasn't proven he can deal with them...
> 
> and it is for that reason, fedor can not be considered the p4p best fighter right now....as he hasn't proven he can beat the new influx of HW contenders


Thank god! I am not the only one who sees this.

To be the best you have to beat the best. In the last 3 years Fedor has not done this. I'm not saying he's dodging competion but he hasn't gone out of his way to find it either. He fights exactly the same way in every fight. You know what he is going to do when he comes out. He's going to use to impressive hand speed and power to make up for generally technically lacking striking while retaining the option to take you to the ground and utilize his admittedly excellent ground game. He doesn't change up or alternate in any real way from fight to fight. The very fact that the Fedor who fought Sylvia looked exactly like the old Fedor should be a warning. 

Let us look to Chuck Lidell's recent trend and learn a lesson.

Silva, on the other hand, has fought mostly top competition on a very consistent basis to the point of even asking for more fights. He shows considerable improvemnet with every fight. His striking is on an absolutely different level than any other fighter. To all Fedor fans I must apologize but SIlva's striking is superior. Backed by an extremely dangerous ground game with submission victories over the likes of Henderson and Lutter. As much of a douche as Lutter is he is an exceptionally skilled jujitsu practitioner. Not that SIlva is perfect wrestling is his weak point. It has something to do with his striking stance and preference for throwing kicks.

But to be the best one's game must evolve as your competition does. Fedor hasn't proven that he has done this. Silva has. (As has GSP but that's another matter entirely.)

That's just my objective opinion as a fighter and mma trainer.


----------



## Mjr (Apr 22, 2007)

Please dont take this the wrong way, UFC is the best organisation out there, with the best pool of talented fighters.

However the UFC does not possess the best p4p fighter, and alot of the guys that think UFC is MMA would like to think they do. 

Silva vs Cote solidified this for me, I wasnt sure if I was watching a Black Cheerleader running around the cage or Anderson Silva. 

Silva is a top notch fighter, taking nothing away from him. 
But Fedor is the best p4p end of story, and if he wanted to would take down Anderson Silva in a dance off quite easily.

You can bang on and on about fedor vs silvas recent competition. But its all useless.
Fedor is unbeaten, do you understand Rocky?



deadmanshand said:


> Thank god! I am not the only one who sees this.
> 
> To be the best you have to beat the best. In the last 3 years Fedor has not done this. I'm not saying he's dodging competion but he hasn't gone out of his way to find it either. He fights exactly the same way in every fight. You know what he is going to do when he comes out. He's going to use to impressive hand speed and power to make up for generally technically lacking striking while retaining the option to take you to the ground and utilize his admittedly excellent ground game. He doesn't change up or alternate in any real way from fight to fight. The very fact that the Fedor who fought Sylvia looked exactly like the old Fedor should be a warning.
> 
> .


UFC heavyweight division sucks, you can talk about all the new up and comers but in reality there are very little.
"fedors technically lacking striking" He uses an odd style and while I will say its not very pretty, it seems to work fairly well, just ask Tim Sylvia. 
His head movement was precise and however it looked. it was very very effective.

To compare the Lidell Trend to fedor, are you kidding me?

Lidell shapes in with his hands down?

That is a major major issue one which is being exploited now.

Fedor has been in the game along time and yes he does fight the same way every time, No he does not get exploited because he is to good. 

Its silly comparing the two, it just dosent happen.


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

Mjr180 said:


> UFC heavyweight division sucks, you can talk about all the new up and comers but in reality there are very little.
> "fedors technically lacking striking" He uses an odd style and while I will say its not very pretty, it seems to work fairly well, just ask Tim Sylvia.
> His head movement was precise and however it looked. it was very very effective.
> 
> ...


Did I say anything about the UFC's heavyweight division? The answer would be no. I think - barring a few interesting fighters - that particular division sucks big honkin' monkey balls.

You are right about his striking. It is an odd style - read wild and jerky - but he does possess good head movement which is something that Sylvia has traditionally shown a complete lack of ability to deal with. Watch his fight against Couture for that one.

And actually the Lidell analogy is a good one. Here is a fighter who found a single gameplan that worked for him and used it in every fight. Once someone weeded out the holes in his game he started losing even to people who he shouldn't. *cough* Jardine, Evans *cough* I'm not saying he's making the same stylistic mistakes. I'm saying he's making the same strategic mistakes. 

And no one is good enough to never have their weaknesses exploited. Everyone has them and they can be used against them. Even Fedor.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

deadmanshand said:


> Did I say anything about the UFC's heavyweight division? The answer would be no. I think - barring a few interesting fighters - that particular division sucks big honkin' monkey balls.
> 
> You are right about his striking. It is an odd style - read wild and jerky - but he does possess good head movement which is something that Sylvia has traditionally shown a complete lack of ability to deal with. Watch his fight against Couture for that one.
> 
> ...


I would like you to give me a few examples of Fedor's weaknesses.

He's a strong, fast, explosive heavyweight that strikes through guys like prime Cro Cop, yet at the same time destroys guys like Nog on the ground. Then, he can go off and take Sylvia, a tall man with a long reach who just got done boxing Nog's face in for 3 rounds, also happens to be a top heavyweight, put him on the ground with an amazing, fast, explosive exchange then transition right into a submission, all in 36 seconds.

Fedor hasn't been "exploited" yet because there is nothing to exploit. He is a very talented fighter that is very difficult to do anything to.


----------



## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> I would like you to give me a few examples of Fedor's weaknesses.
> 
> He's a strong, fast, explosive heavyweight that strikes through guys like prime Cro Cop, yet at the same time destroys guys like Nog on the ground. Then, he can go off and take Sylvia, a tall man with a long reach who just got done boxing Nog's face in for 3 rounds, also happens to be a top heavyweight, put him on the ground with an amazing, fast, explosive exchange then transition right into a submission, all in 36 seconds.
> 
> Fedor hasn't been "exploited" yet because there is nothing to exploit. He is a very talented fighter that is very difficult to do anything to.


Do you honestly expect me to believe that he is the perfect fighter? That he isn't human? That he has no weaknesses?

His striking is wild and even sloppy at times. Not to mention fairly un-diversified. It's the same strikes - straight punch, hook, uppercut - over and over again with few change ups. He really has never faced what I would consider a top tier striker because the HW division doesn't really have any. (Cro Cop is an excellent kickboxer but not a top tier striker and if you apply pressure to him he doesn't really know what to do.)

Let's talk about wrestling. He's been taken down in damn near every fight of his I've watched. He recovers well but still. Against a truly skilled wrestler like say - just hypothetically - Couture he would come out with his same gameplan would be taken down and GNPed. Admittedly he would lose more due to the gameplan than his skills but I digress.

Now I'm not saying Fedor sucks. I'm just saying he can be beat. That he's human. Is he one of the best Heavyweights in the division? Yes. Do I myself believe he is the best p4p fighter in the world? No. I don't even think it's close.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> Amazing, you question what I post and what I posted can easily be verified yet you have once again posted something you can't prove. Actually it's really funny to bring it up even though you know you can't prove it and saying that I won't believe it existed because you can't find it is a cop out. I have Barnett's thought's on why he turned down the fight and he never mentions an 80/20 split, which with as outspoken as Josh is you would believe he would.


Well it's true. Question my integrity all you want that's fine. Doesn't take away from the fact that Fedor doesn't deserve to be called the top p4p fighter. 



Mjr180 said:


> Haha, Rocky man you really are misguided,
> Did you just catch on to MMA via the TUF?
> 
> Anderson is not even close to fedor, not even close, if you believe he is then you have bought into the UFC's hype machine. UFC has the best p4p hype machine, not the best p4p fighter.


Actually I started watching the orginal PRIDE and UFC events. I still have a few of the video tapes, yes video tapes that's how long I've been watching mma. Maybe I have been affected by the UFC hype machine, and maybe you can't let PRIDE go. I was one of those weird mma fans who watched both. I'm guessing you were one of the UFC sucks fans. So you can't accept that you're hero Fedor hasn't done anything worth talking about in the last three years. I think part of the problem is that you are basing you're p4p rankings based on whose skills you deem to be the best, completely objective. I base mine on their recent accomplishments and facts. Look at what they have done 2007-08

Fedor in the last two years has beaten 1 top ten HW.

Anderson Silva has beaten 3.

Fedor has won 3 fights

Anderson Silva has won 6.

I guess it is easy to get swayed by the UFC hype machine, because here's who agrees with me.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/the-spider-tops-fedor-in-sherdog-p4p-rankings-9658

http://fiveouncesofpain.com/rankings/

http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/leaguep...06hbMYAeIA7yFqQMTlvM9Eo14?prov=yhoo&type=lgns

http://hdnetfights.com/insidemma.php

http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/columns/story?id=3081517

http://www.mmaplayground.com/top-10-mma-fighters.aspx?Display=P4P

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/josh_gross/10/15/p4p-rankings-10-15/index.html

http://www.fighting-mma.com/top10/pound-4-pound.php

http://www.mma-analyst.com/post/Determining-P4P-rankings-Whos-1.aspx

http://www.411mania.com/MMA/columns/87287/411\\s-MMA-Rankings-10.09.08:-Pound-For-Pound.htm

Who agrees with you exactly, besides bitter UFC haters


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Well it's true. Question my integrity all you want that's fine. Doesn't take away from the fact that Fedor doesn't deserve to be called the top p4p fighter.


What does Fedor have to do with you questioning what I say (that was verified by 4 different links) when you yourself said something to which you can not backup, again? Did he hide this link that disappeared?


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

deadmanshand said:


> Do you honestly expect me to believe that he is the perfect fighter? That he isn't human? That he has no weaknesses?
> 
> His striking is wild and even sloppy at times. Not to mention fairly un-diversified. It's the same strikes - straight punch, hook, uppercut - over and over again with few change ups. He really has never faced what I would consider a top tier striker because the HW division doesn't really have any. (Cro Cop is an excellent kickboxer but not a top tier striker and if you apply pressure to him he doesn't really know what to do.)
> 
> ...


First of all, I never said he is the perfect fighter, he is, however, the most talented and well versed.

Cro Cop - He is a Great striker, Fedor did very, very well against him standing. You say Fedor put pressure on him? Yes, you're right, Fedor's Technique, Gameplan and Strategy worked extremely well in defeating one of the most feared strikers in mma at the time.

Wrestling - Randy Couture? Mark Coleman used his wrestling against Fedor, he was put into an armbar both times. Fedor off his back = just as dangerous as Fedor standing infront of you or on top of you.

Let's talk about transitions. Anderson Silva went to the ground with Travis, ended up being mounted, pounded on, controlled for the majority of the fight when it was on the ground. Yes, he did eventually get the sub, though. Fedor on the other hand will beat you striking, then submit you a second later. He can transition between styles better than anyone in mma. That is scary, especially when he can beat the best of both worlds.

Fedor has amazing striking, amazing ground game, best transitions in mma.


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

deadmanshand said:


> Do you honestly expect me to believe that he is the perfect fighter? That he isn't human? That he has no weaknesses?
> 
> His striking is wild and even sloppy at times. Not to mention fairly un-diversified. It's the same strikes - straight punch, hook, uppercut - over and over again with few change ups. He really has never faced what I would consider a top tier striker because the HW division doesn't really have any. *(Cro Cop is an excellent kickboxer but not a top tier striker and if you apply pressure to him he doesn't really know what to do.)*
> 
> Let's talk about wrestling. He's been taken down in damn near every fight of his I've watched. He recovers well but still. Against a truly skilled wrestler like say - just hypothetically - Couture he would come out with his same gameplan would be taken down and GNPed. Admittedly he would lose more due to the gameplan than his skills but I digress.


Silva, Crocop, Paul Daley, Alistair Overeem. Top 4 strikers in MMA. Don't even try and debate this.

As for wrestling, I take it you only watched his Fujita fight, and that's about it. The man is a 11 time world *****, and Judo champion, Olympic caliber wrestlers like Lindland and Coleman couldn't take him down.

Randleman slammed him, but we saw how easily he got swept for such a great wrestler.


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## Anibus (Feb 4, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Well it's true. Question my integrity all you want that's fine. Doesn't take away from the fact that Fedor doesn't deserve to be called the top p4p fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They all joined the Hype train. Just like everyone on Sports center praises Ohio State, who in my opinion are extremely overrated...well that's besides the point.

Dana White is soo good at marketing Anderson Silva as the best P4P fighter in the world, that anyone who doesn't follow MMA and occasionally watches Spike and the Fights replayed, will of course believe Dana.

Anderson Silva is an amazing fighter, don't get me wrong, but Fedor is on a whole different level. After watching Last nights fight and seeing Anderson Show boat like he was...it only confirmed Fedor is the best. You will never see Fedor do that when he fights. 

Fedor is the best fighter in the world. _Period_


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> What does Fedor have to do with you questioning what I say (that was verified by 4 different links) when you yourself said something to which you can not backup, again? Did he hide this link that disappeared?


Did I say that you were lying? No I simply said that I had not heard a definitive statement from Affliction about the actual date of the fight. I had heard plenty of rumors, but you always hear a lot of rumors in mma. You provided the links, I conceded you were right. I'm sorry I was uniformed, but I never questioned weather you were telling the truth, as you did. 

I notice this is what you would like to talk about instead of the facts about their career or that every sports/mma writer agrees with me. This will be the last I discuss this point. If you want to respond about so you feel better about yourself that you got the last word go ahead. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I don't think anyone else on the board cares about this crap.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

plazzman said:


> Silva, Crocop, Paul Daley, Alistair Overeem. Top 4 strikers in MMA. Don't even try and debate this.
> 
> As for wrestling, I take it you only watched his Fujita fight, and that's about it. The man is a 11 time world *****, and Judo champion, Olympic caliber wrestlers like Lindland and Coleman couldn't take him down.
> 
> Randleman slammed him, but we saw how easily he got swept for such a great wrestler.


Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Did I say that you were lying? No I simply said that I had not heard a definitive statement from Affliction about the actual date of the fight. I had heard plenty of rumors, but you always hear a lot of rumors in mma. You provided the links, I conceded you were right. I'm sorry I was uniformed, but I never questioned weather you were telling the truth, as you did.
> 
> I notice this is what you would like to talk about instead of the facts about their career or that every sports/mma writer agrees with me. This will be the last I discuss this point. If you want to respond about so you feel better about yourself that you got the last word go ahead. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I don't think anyone else on the board cares about this crap.


You perpetuated that I was merely spreading a rumor when you asked for verification "not just some rumor". I provided 3 links then asked you to provide a link to your statement which you can remember specifics about but not where you found it. Seems like you are just making things up to try and strengthen your argument.

You say I don't like to talk facts, remind me, who was the one that emphatically said Fedor was cut by a punch from TK and tried to bring video evidence to prove this? I think people will care if they know that you are using "facts" that aren't real.

I have in multiple threads talked about Fedor's career and in two seperate threads you have avoided answering a point blank question I have asked you about Fedor and his career, so how am I doing what you say?


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Anibus said:


> They all joined the Hype train. Just like everyone on Sports center praises Ohio State, who in my opinion are extremely overrated...well that's besides the point.
> 
> Dana White is soo good at marketing Anderson Silva as the best P4P fighter in the world, that anyone who doesn't follow MMA and occasionally watches Spike and the Fights replayed. Of course they are going to believe Dana.
> 
> ...


Yes because Sherdog, five ounces of pain, yahoo sports, inside mma, and espn don't follow the sport. They just listen to what Dana White says. Are you kidding me? I know it sucks to be proved wrong, but just saying period after your after your proposition doesn't prove your affirmative. You're right that maybe Silva shouldn't have showboated, but showboating doesn't change your skill level. It also doesn't drop you're ranking unless you lose. Showboating is all you've got, because you're grasping for anything.


----------



## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

plazzman said:


> Silva, Crocop, Paul Daley, Alistair Overeem. Top 4 strikers in MMA. Don't even try and debate this.
> 
> As for wrestling, I take it you only watched his Fujita fight, and that's about it. The man is a 11 time world *****, and Judo champion, Olympic caliber wrestlers like Lindland and Coleman couldn't take him down.
> 
> Randleman slammed him, but we saw how easily he got swept for such a great wrestler.


I will debate your top 4 strikers in mma because they are not even close. Silva is a horrific striker. Always has been. Couture outsruck him in devastating fashion and he is far from one of the best strikers in mma. Overeem is very good at kneeing someone in the nuts but he failed to out strike Paul Buentello who's stand up blows hard. Cro Cop is a powerful and skilled kickboxer but with a very narrow set of strikes he uses. It makes him predicatble as you know exactly what he's going to do from match to match. Paul Daley...I just plain don't know much about him so I'll leave him alone.

Lindland is up two weight classes to fight him. No hard thing to figure out why he had a hard time. Coleman was so far out of his prime when he fought Fedor it wasn't funny. So I don't really accept those as good arguments against his weakness to wrestling. Neither of them were great wrestlers at the time or that weight class.

I should point out that I am completely aware of his impressive Judo and ***** backgrounds. Indeed his ground game is impressive but I didn't say his ground game was his weakness. I said wrestling was his weakness. Wrestling is more than just slamming someone to the mat.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> thats exactly it. if you look @ the ww division 3 years ago lets say, do you realize how much more talented the weight division is now than it was in 2005?


Yes, I'm well aware. 



Aaronyman said:


> there are ALOT more top guys....same goes for HW...these guys who "fell through the ranks" did so b/c they got weeded out by younger, better fighters....the landscape of the HW division HAS changed, and Fedor hasn't proven he can deal with them...


That's just how the sport works though. Nogueira's still widely considered #2 in the world and has been since Fedor over, and he's faced top more top HWs than anyone, who is to say Fedor couldn't be just as, if not more successful?



Aaronyman said:


> and it is for that reason, fedor can not be considered the p4p best fighter right now....as he hasn't proven he can beat the new influx of HW contenders


He's still the best fighter in the world, and he'll prove it further when he minces Arlovski. 



rockybalboa25 said:


> So you're saying that Hunt was moved up into the top ten with a bogus win over Cro Cop?


Yeah, because it's true.



rockybalboa25 said:


> Since everyone likes links, do you have a link for that? I'm just being a dick. I know that mma sites don't archive their rankings that far back in most cases.


I genuinely looked for you, but I couldn't find MMAWeekly's Jan 2005 rankings. However, a win over a top 3 will certainly propel you into the outskirts of the top 10.




rockybalboa25 said:


> Yes, it's amazing that Randy turned down a fight with the #1 fighter in the world for his first fight out of retirement. I mean it's not like he had been out of the sport for a year. It obviously wouldn't his first heavyweight fight in five years. It's not important that he hadn't fought or trained in a ring in six years is it? There's a big difference in the two, if you look at subjectively.


Not really, you're just doing damage control now. I came up with actual proof that Randy Couture turned down a fight with Fedor, now you come up with a link to prove Fedor did the same. Good luck with that.




rockybalboa25 said:


> I will concede that we need to take the things that Dana says with a grain of salt.


Thanks Captain Obvious!





deadmanshand said:


> He fights exactly the same way in every fight. You know what he is going to do when he comes out. He's going to use to impressive hand speed and power to make up *for generally technically lacking striking* while retaining the option to take you to the ground and utilize his admittedly excellent ground game.


Please tell me you're joking, right? Fedor's striking is very technical, he's not wild, he's unorthodox but that's because he has adapted his striking specifically for MMA. Everyone thinks Fedor throws loopy punches, but they're dead wrong. When Fedor throws hooks, he throws them out like jabs then snaps his hip and flicks his elbow out. 

It's not textbook so it looks strange, but it's actually really effective because it's not as telegraphed as a standard hook. Due to the fact MMA gloves are so small, he's able to get the strike off fast AND get around his opponents' gloves, causing the punch to land more cleanly.

Also, Fedor doesn't rely on his arms and hands to block strikes coming in to him, unlike most strikers, because he relies on very technical footwork. Seriously, watch his fights and notice how elusive and light he is on his feet, he's very aware of his surroundings at all times, he's not lazy.




deadmanshand said:


> He doesn't change up or alternate in any real way from fight to fight. The very fact that the Fedor who fought Sylvia looked exactly like the old Fedor should be a warning.


Kind of a stupid observation no offense. Hmm.. let's see, continue to fight like the undefeated fighter that I am, or fight like a different fighter that risks losing? 

How often do you see Anderson Silva shoot for double legs? He doesn't need to, he's the same fighter he's always been just more polished. Fedor has always been incredibly well-rounded, and he's shown a plethora of skill from all standpoints. I really don't know why you'd expect him to stray away from a style which he has gained success with, due to his versatility in all aspects of the sport? 




deadmanshand said:


> Let us look to Chuck Lidell's recent trend and learn a lesson.


Stupid example, Chuck Liddell is nowhere near as complete all around as Fedor is.




deadmanshand said:


> Silva, on the other hand, has fought mostly top competition on a very consistent basis to the point of even asking for more fights. He shows considerable improvemnet with every fight. His striking is on an absolutely different level than any other fighter. To all Fedor fans I must apologize but SIlva's striking is superior.


Fedor's shown something special in almost every fight he's ever been in. Against Randleman and Fujita he showed incredible recovery skills, against Nogueira he showed how amazing his ground game is and why he has the best ground and pound in the sport (both times), against Cro Cop he showed how good his striking and cardio was, against Hong Man Choi he showed a 140lb weight difference is no match for his technique, and so on, and so forth. 




deadmanshand said:


> Backed by an extremely dangerous ground game with submission victories over the likes of Henderson and Lutter. As much of a douche as Lutter is he is an exceptionally skilled jujitsu practitioner. Not that SIlva is perfect wrestling is his weak point. It has something to do with his striking stance and preference for throwing kicks.


Need I remind you Anderson Silva has been finished by two men, whereas Fedor has no legitimate losses? Didn't think so.



deadmanshand said:


> But to be the best one's game must evolve as your competition does. Fedor hasn't proven that he has done this. Silva has. (As has GSP but that's another matter entirely.)
> 
> That's just my objective opinion as a fighter and mma trainer.


As a student of the sport, and an avid fan, I'm asking you to not pass your obviously personal opinion as "objective", because it's simply ludicrous and fallacious to consider it anything but subjective.


Also, Plazz is talking about Anderson Silva---the man you're defending to the death---not *Tim Sylvia*.


----------



## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Just in case this is needed when knowing if rocky knows what he is talking about with Fedor. This was about Fedor's loss.



rockybalboa25 said:


> Why would it be a no contest or DQ? When a cut is opened by a punch it is a TKO. That's true in any mma or boxing event. Now maybe had he not been fighting in a tournament, he wouldn't have gotten cut so easily. But it's still a legit loss.
> 
> *Want to see the punch*.
> 
> http://www.megavideo.com/?v=REOTDSIA





Fedor>all said:


> Not really, you're just doing damage control now. I came up with actual proof that Randy Couture turned down a fight with Fedor, now you come up with a link to prove Fedor did the same. Good luck with that.


Don't tell me he told you he had link he can't provide to.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> You perpetuated that I was merely spreading a rumor when you asked for verification "not just some rumor". I provided 3 links then asked you to provide a link to your statement which you can remember specifics about but not where you found it. Seems like you are just making things up to try and strengthen your argument.
> 
> You say I don't like to talk facts, remind me, who was the one that emphatically said Fedor was cut by a punch from TK and tried to bring video evidence to prove this? I think people will care if they know that you are using "facts" that aren't real.
> 
> I have in multiple threads talked about Fedor's career and in two seperate threads you have avoided answering a point blank question I have asked you about Fedor and his career, so how am I doing what you say?


So what question are you asking? I've answered all you're questions. You just don't agree with my answers. Is it not a fact that Fedor hasn't beaten as many top fighters as Silva recently? Is it not a fact that Silva has won more fights recently? Is it not a fact that bunch of links I posted were of sports/mma writers agreeing with me? Is it not a fact that Fedor has not fought top competition as of the last three years? Which one of those aren't true? Also I didn't emphatically say that Fedor was cut by a punch. I said that the punch glanced him and the elbow followed through and hit him. Upon further review it could have been TK's head as well. I said that you could not see the moment that cut appeared for sure. I also said that fight has nothing to do with his ranking as a p4p fighter. This line of argument has no bearing in this argument since I never brought it up as reason Fedor wasn't the p4p best fighter. You brought it up both times. You like to harp on small insignificant things instead of who they have fought recently and what credible source agrees with you.


----------



## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

> I will debate your top 4 strikers in mma because they are not even close. Silva is a horrific striker. Always has been. Couture outsruck him in devastating fashion and he is far from one of the best strikers in mma. Overeem is very good at kneeing someone in the nuts but he failed to out strike Paul Buentello who's stand up blows hard. Cro Cop is a powerful and skilled kickboxer but with a very narrow set of strikes he uses. It makes him predicatble as you know exactly what he's going to do from match to match. Paul Daley...I just plain don't know much about him so I'll leave him alone.


This would be great if you had any idea what you were talking about.

I said *Silva* as in Anderson Silva, not Sylvia as in Tim Sylvia.

And Crocop has a narrow set of strikes? Are you freakin serious man? I just can't take you seriously, honestly, get some background for your "facts", please, watch some of his K-1 and PRIDE fights, PLEASE!

While you're at it, watch some of Overeems fights and Google Paul Daley. Then we'll talk.




> Lindland is up two weight classes to fight him. No hard thing to figure out why he had a hard time. Coleman was so far out of his prime when he fought Fedor it wasn't funny. So I don't really accept those as good arguments against his weakness to wrestling. Neither of them were great wrestlers at the time or that weight class.


Lindland fights at 185, but dude walks around at around 200+. What's Fedor's average weight, 230s? Look at the difference between Couture and Sylvia, and look at what Couture did to him.

You're telling me Lindland wouldn't have prepared himself technically, and physically when he knew he was fighting the #1 HW in the world?



> I should point out that I am completely aware of his impressive Judo and ***** backgrounds. Indeed his ground game is impressive but I didn't say his ground game was his weakness. I said wrestling was his weakness. Wrestling is more than just slamming someone to the mat.


You questioned his wrestling and I pointed out to you what happened when he faced great wrestlers, what else do you want me to do?

The man took Mirko down, do you know how hard it was to take Mirko down in his prime?


----------



## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> So what question are you asking? I've answered all you're questions.


Nope, two threads and no answer yet. You say you want Fedor to fight the top 2-3 guys in his weightclass but you claim he hasn't fought them in the last couple years. Well the same guys have been the top 2-3 HW's (espicially Nog at #2) and even though Fedor has pretty easily handled every fighter he has faced, do you want him to have a bunch of rematches in order to fight the top 2-3 guys? Only *top* HW's he hasn't fought are Arlovski (going to), Randy (obvious why and Randy turned that fight down), and Barnett (turned a fight down with Fedor as well).



> Is it not a fact that Fedor hasn't beaten as many top fighters as Silva recently?
> Is it not a fact that Silva has won more fights recently? Is it not a fact that bunch of links I posted were of sports/mma writers agreeing with me? Is it not a fact that Fedor has not fought top competition as of the last three years?


Show me where I disagreed with Andy not being labeled the best P4P fighter and you can't say you can't find it because it's all here.



> Also I didn't emphatically say that Fedor was cut by a punch. I said that the punch glanced him and the elbow followed through and hit him. I said that you could not see the moment that cut appeared for sure. I also said that fight has nothing to do with his ranking as a p4p fighter. You like to harp on small insignificant things instead of who they have fought recently and what credible source agrees with you.


Just posted the link to what you said but here it is again, pretty emphatic with the punch theory. But if you want to go with the "all the sports writers agree with me argument" well all the sports writers agree with me that it was clearly the elbow that caused it, not the punch like you said.



> Why would it be a no contest or DQ? When a cut is opened by a punch it is a TKO. That's true in any mma or boxing event. Now maybe had he not been fighting in a tournament, he wouldn't have gotten cut so easily. But it's still a legit loss.
> 
> *Want to see the punch*.


----------



## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

MLS said:


> Don't tell me he told you he had link he can't provide to.


Yep. He demands links but fails to offer them himself, unfortunately for him he can't source his ass on the internet.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> Nope, two threads and no answer yet. You say you want Fedor to fight the top 2-3 guys in his weightclass but you claim he hasn't fought them in the last couple years. Well the same guys have been the top 2-3 HW's (espicially Nog at #2) and even though Fedor has pretty easily handled every fighter he has faced, do you want him to have a bunch of rematches in order to fight the top 2-3 guys? Only *top* HW's he hasn't fought are Arlovski (going to), Randy (obvious why and Randy turned that fight down), and Barnett (turned a fight down with Fedor as well).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you remember right at that time I was not aware that elbow strikes were illegal in that fight. After I was made aware. I rewatched it and then said you couldn't be sure what caused it. Again I said that it had no bearing on p4p argument. Again you want to talk about something insignificant instead of the real issue. I'm guessing you're going to keep talking about this, because you have nothing better to say.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I see you quoted me before I had seen the fight. If you remember right at that time I was not aware that elbow strikes were illegal in that fight. After I was made aware. I rewatched it and then said you couldn't be sure what caused it. Again I said that it had no bearing on p4p argument. Again you want to talk about something insignificant instead of the real issue. I'm guessing you're going to keep talking about this, because you have nothing better to say.


So let me get this straight, you say you have answered all my questions and then I ask it again and no answer.

Then you bring all this stuff up about how Andy should be labeled P4P #1 as if I disagreed with it and I asked you to show me where I did disagreed with that and you can't.

Now you are telling me that you posted that it was a punch that caused the cut even though you hadn't watched the fight. Because as you said, the quote that I quoted was "before I had seen the fight." Then to make it even better you didn't even know the rules. And you are still denying that it was a elbow that caused it? What about all your buddies the sport's writers that agree with me that it was an elbow?

And to top it off, you have apparently used information to debate with me and another member that you cannot back up with proof even though me and the other member easily provided proof.


----------



## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

MLS said:


> What about all your buddies the sport's writers that agree with me that it was an elbow?


They're lying, obviously.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> So let me get this straight, you say you have answered all my questions and then I ask it again and no answer.
> 
> Then you bring all this stuff up about how Andy should be labeled P4P #1 as if I disagreed with it and I asked you to show me where I did disagreed with that and you can't.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about before I watched the fight? I think you should remember that I told you I was unaware that elbow were illegal. I also said it could have been a head butt, if you read my post I'm not sure that you did. So you're big on questions do you think Fedor is the #1 p4p fighter? Because that is what this board is actually about. Not let me attack the new member, because it makes me feel better about myself.


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

Im saying Silva just based on recent activities. Id rather see a fighter fight more frequently even if its not at the same stellar competition (even though he did fight Hendo this year) as oppose to a fighter who fights the top competition every 6 months, because in theory Silva puts his p4p status on the line more frequently then Fedor

Don't flame, just my opinion.
And im going to go out there and say it. IF *GSP* beats BJ and Thiago (if he gets the shot next year, then i would most likely rank him my number 1 p4p fighter in the world (of course it depends with fedor and silva...but the way things are looking, if Fedor only fights arlovski and Silva fights Okami and someone at LHW, id give it to GSP...but again obviously depends)


----------



## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> What are you talking about before I watched the fight? I think you should remember that I told you I was unaware that elbow were illegal. I also said it could have been a head butt, if you read my post I'm not sure that you did. So you're big on questions do you think Fedor is the #1 p4p fighter? Because that is what this board is actually about. Not let me attack the new member, because it makes me feel better about myself.


Guess what, when you try and edit stuff out my quote still shows it. Here you go or are you denying you posted that because I had noticed that this part had disappeared from your post. Or are you really going to try and tell me I added that? And you never said anything about a headbut but if you would like we can go through those posts as well.



rockybalboa25 said:


> *I see you quoted me before I had seen the fight.* If you remember right at that time I was not aware that elbow strikes were illegal in that fight. After I was made aware. I rewatched it and then said you couldn't be sure what caused it. Again I said that it had no bearing on p4p argument. Again you want to talk about something insignificant instead of the real issue. I'm guessing you're going to keep talking about this, because you have nothing better to say.


Now for this headbutt post, please show me where it is because these are the only posts you use to decsribe what happened.



rockybalboa25 said:


> Why would it be a no contest or DQ? When a cut is opened by a punch it is a TKO. That's true in any mma or boxing event. Now maybe had he not been fighting in a tournament, he wouldn't have gotten cut so easily. But it's still a legit loss.
> 
> Want to see the punch.
> 
> http://www.megavideo.com/?v=REOTDSIA





rockybalboa25 said:


> First of all his hand definitely hits him as he follows through and land with the elbow. If you can't see that you're blind. So there is no way to say which caused the cut. Secondly were elbows illegal in Rings, seriously I don't know?


Playing the sympathy card are we? 

1.You told me that I wasn't using fact when it comes to Fedor, I am. 
2.You said you answered all my questions, you still have failed to which pertained to Fedor and what could be used as a P4P argument
3.You brought up points to say that I disagreed with Anderson being #1 P4P and I asked you to show me where I had said he wasn't, you couldn't.
4. You have used information to backup your argument that you cannot prove is true with two members now.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Suizida said:


> Im saying Silva just based on recent activities. Id rather see a fighter fight more frequently even if its not at the same stellar competition (even though he did fight Hendo this year) as oppose to a fighter who fights the top competition every 6 months, because in theory Silva puts his p4p status on the line more frequently then Fedor
> 
> Don't flame, just my opinion.
> And im going to go out there and say it. IF *GSP* beats BJ and Thiago (if he gets the shot next year, then i would most likely rank him my number 1 p4p fighter in the world (of course it depends with fedor and silva...but the way things are looking, if Fedor only fights arlovski and Silva fights Okami and someone at LHW, id give it to GSP...but again obviously depends)


I personally think GSP is the P4P best in the world, based on resume alone. He's beaten more top 10s than anyone:

BJ, Koscheck, Fitch, Hughes (twice), Trigg, Serra (was top 10 after becoming champ), and Parisyan.

Versus Silva:

Marquardt, Franklin (twice), and Henderson.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> Guess what, when you try and edit stuff out my quote still shows it. Here you go or are you denying you posted that because I had noticed that this part had disappeared from your post. Or are you really going to try and tell me I added that? And you never said anything about a headbut but if you would like we can go through those posts as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So you're just going to keep attacking me. Good for you. Shows maturity. You never answer my question about is Fedor #1. I don't understand what you're even saying in #2. 


I do sometimes edit my posts after I post, and I did add the headbutt part, because I was watching the video again. I thought you would appreciate that. But my edit as you see went through before you're post did. I have noticed you do some "creative quoting"


MLS said:


> MLS SUCKS!!!! I can type things in a quotation box too.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> So you're just going to keep attacking me. Good for you. Shows maturity. You never answer my question about is Fedor #1. I don't understand what you're even saying in #2.


Hahaha attacking, number two said, You said you answered all my questions, you still have failed to which the question pertained to Fedor and what could be used as a P4P argument




> I do sometimes edit my posts after I post, and I did add the headbutt part, because I was watching the video again. I thought you would appreciate that. But my edit as you see went through before you're post did. I have noticed you do some "creative quoting"


Now see here is the problem. You never mentioned a headbutt in your original posts in the other thread where you wrongly stated that it was a punch (and no edit in them as I just pulled those posts up a couple minutes ago) which is why I brought those two posts up to show that you never mentioned a headbutt, so again you are saying things that aren't true.

Elaborate on this creative quoting and if try and say I added anything to your post then we all know you are lying (again) because I have absolutely no reason to add one thing to your posts because you do a good enough job of putting your foot in your mouth.

The thing you did edit out and tried to question why I had said anything about it was this gem, "I see you quoted me before I had seen the fight."

And if you want to say I am attacking you, show me where I have.


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## Mjr (Apr 22, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Well it's true. Question my integrity all you want that's fine. Doesn't take away from the fact that Fedor doesn't deserve to be called the top p4p fighter.
> 
> 
> Fedor in the last two years has beaten 1 top ten HW.
> ...


Mate, Read my other post I said the UFC is the best org out there right now with the top pool of fighters. I am not bitter about the UFC I am a fan.
Well of course the links you posted are onboard the hype train, the UFC is the only organisation that holds regular top level events.
What else are they going to write about? 
Afflictions 2 events a year if that?
Dreams lack of drawcard fighters? 
Elite xc and kimbo? oh wait.

MMA is lacking another succesful org right now and until something better comes along the UFC will still have the control with its fighters deemed the best and any fighters outside of the UFC will have a hard time getting recognition.

When politics stop the top fighter getting into the top organisation this is the result.
Yes he hasnt been active lately, but after the sylvia fight who can question that he has lost any of his greatness?
Till we see him beaten I find it hard to do.
cheers


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> I personally think GSP is the P4P best in the world, based on resume alone. He's beaten more top 10s than anyone:
> 
> BJ, Koscheck, Fitch, Hughes (twice), Trigg, Serra (was top 10 after becoming champ), and Parisyan.
> 
> ...


only thing is Silva has been more dominant...but that's everyone else's views. GSP has been tearing it up since his UFC 83, cause he didnt kill koscheck but he smashes serra and fitch


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

When Fedor beat Arlovski and Barnett and Lesnar beat Randy people will start saying that Fedor is not the best because he hasn’t fought Brock and it will be going forever (there’s ALWAYS someone coming you’ve never fought with). I think the bottom-line is how people will remember you when you’re done with MMA. I don’t think that after 20-25 years MMA fans will be saying that Fedor is not the best because he didn’t fight top contender in 2008 but he did so throughout his career until 2008. The only thing that matters the most is the number of your defeated opponents overall. The best HW in the UFC will be determined by the next summer, I guess. It will be NOG, I’m almost positive on that. Will this put him to #1 spot? Nope. Why should he be placed there if Fedor has beaten him twice? So there’s analogy to current MW division – 1) A. Silva=Fedor, 2) R. Franklin=NOG. The third battles between them won’t do much difference. The hierarchy is apparent.


> Dana should just let fedor compete in ***** tournaments.Those tournaments are not even popular outside of russia.They certainly arent a threat to the ufc.Fedors not going to get the recognition he deserves if he wont fight in the UFC.


They are not even that popular in Russia…
I guess a lot of people do not accept Fedor as #1 fighter because he’s built his career in Japan. In Japan people will say that Fedor is the best, Anderson Silva has fought in Pride, beat 3 opponents and got beaten twice himself, which is not good. How to determine the best fighter objectively? The one and only way is to put them together and make a battle for 5 rounds; otherwise, everyone will have doubts… Who would win? Fedor I’m sure. So… to me, he’s the best, I can even say that I’m starting to think that George St-Pierre could have a good chance of winning a fight against Anderson Silva. He has only 5 bouts left and I’m sure someone in LHW division will defeat him (e.g. Mauricio Rua, Quinton Jackson or even Liddell for redeeming himself).


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

GSP did outwrestle a great wrestler in Koscheck and made him look pretty stupid doing so. He took him down with ease numerous times.

GSP is scary. The beating he gave Fitch was something else. Jon Fitch is a great fighter, and he had the best skillset to beat GSP. GSP pretty much had his way with him.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> Hahaha attacking, number two said, You said you answered all my questions, you still have failed to which the question pertained to Fedor and what could be used as a P4P argument
> 
> Now see here is the problem. You never mentioned a headbutt in your original posts in the other thread where you wrongly stated that it was a punch (and no edit in them as I just pulled those posts up a couple minutes ago) which is why I brought those two posts up to show that you never mentioned a headbutt, so again you are saying things that aren't true.
> 
> ...


THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WHO IS THE BETTER P4P FIGHTER FEDOR OR SILVA. It is not about Fedor's one loss, that you brought up in this thread, because no one wanted to talk about it in the other thread. Who do you think is the better p4p fighter? This is the third time I have asked you this direct question. Clarify what this: "you still have failed to which the question pertained to Fedor and what could be used as a P4P argument" means. I really have no idea what your trying to say


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Suizida said:


> only thing is Silva has been more dominant...but that's everyone else's views. GSP has been tearing it up since his UFC 83, cause he didnt kill koscheck but he smashes serra and fitch


He's been more dominant, but there's a grander disparity between Silva's level of talent, and the guys he has faced, versus GSP's skillset and the guys he has faced.

GSP has faced an array of well-rounded and technically talent-specific fighters. He's outwrestled dominant wrestlers, and outgrappled talented grapplers (BJ and Serra). The only style GSP hasn't faced is an A-level striker, which he'll get with Alves.

Silva's faced the well-rounded, but not-particularly-amazing-at-anything Rich Franklin and Nate Marquardt, a great wrestler with Dan Henderson, and Travis Lutter who has pretty good BJJ.

Silva still hasn't faced an elite striker, or an amazing grappler in his division, which makes GSP's diversity of wins more impressive IMO, even if he didn't necessarily finish those fights---they were tougher match-ups.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> He's been more dominant, but there's a grander disparity between Silva's level of talent, and the guys he has faced, versus GSP's skillset and the guys he has faced.
> 
> GSP has faced an array of well-rounded and technically talent-specific fighters. He's outwrestled dominant wrestlers, and outgrappled talented grapplers (BJ and Serra). The only style GSP hasn't faced is an A-level striker, which he'll get with Alves.
> 
> ...


I agree that he hasn't faced an elite striker. My question is who in the top 10 in the middleweight division is an elite striker? That's why I think that the move to LHW would best serve his p4p standings.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I agree that he hasn't faced an elite striker. My question is who in the top 10 in the middleweight division is an elite striker? That's why I think that the move to LHW would best serve his p4p standings.


Melvin Manhoef, although he retired would be considered an elite striker (seeing as he's fought in K-1). I'd also say Mousasi is up there, along with Akiyama as very dangerous strikers in the MW division. But I do agree that there are more dangerous strikers at LHW than middleweight.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WHO IS THE BETTER P4P FIGHTER FEDOR OR SILVA. It is not about Fedor's one loss, that you brought up in this thread, because no one wanted to talk about it in the other thread. Who do you think is the better p4p fighter? This is the third time I have asked you this direct question. Clarify what this: "you still have failed to which the question pertained to Fedor and what could be used as a P4P argument" means. I really have no idea what your trying to say


It's funny I have asked you the question twice in this thread. The first time I asked you completely ignored it even though it was directed at you and tried to go after everyone else in the thread.

As far as Fedor's loss, that was only brought up because YOU said I wasn't speaking on facts about Fedor so I kindly asked you to remind me who it was who was emphatically lying about what happened in the fight with TK because being that is a pretty big fact about Fedor and you were completely wrong about leads me to question what else you don't really know about Fedor. 

Again, this is a situation where you are asking me to do something (answer your question) where you won't do a simple thing as to answer a question that has been asked 3 times in two different threads. I'll remind you of the first time this situation came around. I posted a date for affliction which you questioned and wanted proof and "not just a rumor". I provided several links to this and asked if you could provide proof of your rumor of the 80/20 split. You could not do this even though none of the hundred of mma news sites have reported this which you think they would because that's a pretty big reason for a fight to happen.

Now, I know I might of used words you don't know when I said this "you still have failed to which the question pertained to Fedor and what could be used as a P4P argument" so I'll try and simplify it for you. You have not answered the question I have asked you, which this question has P4P implications. Here is one of the times I've point blank asked you and you responded to this post you just never answered the question. And remember you said you want him to fight the top 2-3 guys so no argument about guys that have not been ranked there. 



MLS said:


> Nope, two threads and no answer yet. You say you want Fedor to fight the top 2-3 guys in his weightclass but you claim he hasn't fought them in the last couple years. Well the same guys have been the top 2-3 HW's (espicially Nog at #2) and even though Fedor has pretty easily handled every fighter he has faced, do you want him to have a bunch of rematches in order to fight the top 2-3 guys? Only *top* HW's he hasn't fought are Arlovski (going to), Randy (obvious why and Randy turned that fight down), and Barnett (turned a fight down with Fedor as well).


Lets look at who you said the top 3 contenders are as well compared to what I asked you.



rockybalboa25 said:


> Top 3 heavyweight contenders for Fedor IMO
> 
> 1. Couture
> 2. NOG
> 3. Barnett


So you want him to seemingly fight (since you listed them as contenders) two guys who have turned down fights with Fedor and one guy who was lucky to survive the 3 fights he did have with Fedor.

That post also contained this which was funny.



rockybalboa25 said:


> *Also I think for Penn to be included he needs to beat* more top LW's like Alvarez (possible now), Hansen (also possible), or *Gomi (a man can dream).* Also if he beats GSP he should be towards the top.


You are also really big on top 10 wins to rank guys for P4P and you ranked Torres at #2, remind me how many top 10 wins Torres has in the same timespan that you hold against Fedor.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> It's funny I have asked you the question twice in this thread. The first time I asked you completely ignored it even though it was directed at you and tried to go after everyone else in the thread.
> 
> As far as Fedor's loss, that was only brought up because YOU said I wasn't speaking on facts about Fedor so I kindly asked you to remind me who it was who was emphatically lying about what happened in the fight with TK because being that is a pretty big fact about Fedor and you were completely wrong about leads me to question what else you don't really know about Fedor.
> 
> ...


All right I'll try to make it simpler for you to answer my question (4th time) If you think Fedor is the best p4p fighter type F. If you think Anderson is the best p4p fighter type A. I actually addressed the above question:



rockybalboa25 said:


> \
> 
> So what if he beat some of these guys years ago. If they are the next best he should fight them again. You used a boxing analogy. Roy Jones dodged Antonio Tarver for years by the way. Take the greatest boxer of all time. Sugar Ray Robinson fought Jake Lamotta 6 times. Lamotta won 1 fight. Did that diminish Robinson's legacy? Of course not. It simply showed that he was willing to fight the best even if he had fought them already.


To add to that would you say if NOG beats Mir and Couture/Lesnar, don't you think he has earned another shot. If there was only one world title and no organizations, the WAMMA belt, wouldn't NOG have earned it with wins over Barnett (won the rematch), Werdum, Herring, and Sylvia since they last met. 

So yes I think he should fight NOG. I don't think the Barnett fight is an impossibility, since he is still fighting with Affliction. That of course is pure speculation. While Couture did turn down a fight with Fedor. Fedor also turned down the chance to fight Couture. Unless you are trying to say that before he signed with Affliction, the UFC didn't offer him a contract to fight Couture. As I said in the other forum if Fedor beats Arlovski and either Barnett/winner of UFC tournament, I would consider him the #1 p4p fighter.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

rockybalboa25 said:


> All right I'll try to make it simpler for you to answer my question (4th time) If you think Fedor is the best p4p fighter type F. If you think Anderson is the best p4p fighter type A. I actually addressed the above question:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ugh, not signing with the UFC had nothing to do with Randy.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> Ugh, not signing with the UFC had nothing to do with Randy.


It had nothing to do with Randy, but EVERYTHING to do with St. Leg Kicker.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

aghhhh rocky .... 
so what will 45 years old randy do to ******* fedor? take him down? dirty box him! ? fedor will kill randy... if i was athletic commission i would not even sanction that fight , it is tooooo dangerous for randys health
ps. so when fedor ko's AA people will still say that aa is washed up and fedors needs to fight top competition


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Michael Carson said:


> It had nothing to do with Randy, but EVERYTHING to do with St. Leg Kicker.


Fedor's lucky that the UFC adheres to weight-classes to prevent Emerson from whomping everyone.


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## SouthernMan (Sep 23, 2008)

Set the Damn fight up... There are no weight classes in a real fight.... I want to know who is the worlds baddest man. Not who is pound for pound... Fedor will come in with his great chin and amazing ability to overcome any situation and dominate. Who cares how many top 10 fighters he fought in the past few years. If anything that would cause rust in another fighter. Instead Fedor came back to fight a top 10 and Dominated. Fedor would pressure Silva with heavy accurate strikes and great takedowns and brutal ground and pound. Silva wont control the octagon or whatever they fight in... Silva was leary against Cote... Imagine him fightin Fedor. Fedor wouldnt let him get settled in like other fighters do.... Fedor is amazing and he will go down as the best MMA fighter ever... Who cares about the current pfp rankings.. Remeber people used to argue that Chuck Liddell and Mirko CroCop were ahead of Fedor on the p4p rankings... Fedor will always be in this debate even if Anderson Silva isnt... There will always be a number 2 p4p who people say is better that Fedor.. They will falture and Fedor will go down in History as the Best MMA fighter ever....In any era...


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> All right I'll try to make it simpler for you to answer my question (4th time) If you think Fedor is the best p4p fighter type F. If you think Anderson is the best p4p fighter type A. I actually addressed the above question:


I love how you expected me to answer a question from you when you hadn't answered one from me. It really is like this one time this guy asked for proof of something I posted but couldn't do the same for what he posted, oh wait......



> So what if he beat some of these guys years ago. If they are the next best he should fight them again.


Why should he have to if he beat all of them pretty handily, did the rematch between Silva and Franklin prove anything?




> To add to that would you say if NOG beats Mir and Couture/Lesnar, don't you think he has earned another shot. If there was only one world title and no organizations, the WAMMA belt, wouldn't NOG have earned it with wins over Barnett (won the rematch), Werdum, Herring, and Sylvia since they last met.


What has Nog shown since he lost to Fedor the other two times to think he should get another fight. Again lets reference why there won't be a third fight between Silva and Franklin.



> So yes I think he should fight NOG. I don't think the Barnett fight is an impossibility, since he is still fighting with Affliction. That of course is pure speculation. While Couture did turn down a fight with Fedor. Fedor also turned down the chance to fight Couture. Unless you are trying to say that before he signed with Affliction, the UFC didn't offer him a contract to fight Couture. As I said in the other forum if Fedor beats Arlovski and either Barnett/winner of UFC tournament, I would consider him the #1 p4p fighter.


But you say Fedor is dodging to top competition when the proof is there he isn't. Two of the top guys that you think he should fight were the ones that declined to fight him, so how is Fedor dodging them? *Also, Fedor didn't turn down the fight with Couture*, he turned down the UFC's contract offer (which was kind of really bad stipulations for Fedor) , Randy had NOTHING to do with that. You need to learn that there is a distinct difference between those two.

To answer that stupid question you keep asking, I don't consider P4P in mma because there are way to many variables. But when someone such as yourself spouts of fallacies to try and strengthen your argument I wil question you.

PS. In case you didn't see it and since you hold the top 10 wins so high, you have Torres at #2 on your P4P list but how many top 10 wins does he have in the same time span that you hold against Fedor?

PPS. You still hoping for a BJ/Gomi fight?


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Melvin Manhoef, although he retired would be considered an elite striker (seeing as he's fought in K-1). I'd also say Mousasi is up there, along with Akiyama as very dangerous strikers in the MW division. But I do agree that there are more dangerous strikers at LHW than middleweight.


If they could get Manhoef out of retirement that would be a hell of a fight, unless Silva used his BJJ and took the fight to the ground. Is Mousasi going to remain in mma? Also I don't think most people consider Manhoef or Akiyama top 10 MW. The middle weight division top ten aright now, aside from Mousasi, is made up of BJJ practitioners and wrestlers. I have to to say also I don't know if a striker proposes the biggest threat to Silva. I would say a guy like Lindland, who is bigger and stronger, could possibly take Silva down and control him. Silva definitely couldn't play around with him like he did Cote. I think Silva could beat him, but I think I still think Lindland is his biggest threat.




Fedor>all said:


> Ugh, not signing with the UFC had nothing to do with Randy.


I was just saying that just because years ago when Couture wasn't heavyweight and had been retired for quite sometime, doesn't mean he doesn't want to fight Fedor now. That was what the whole court battle and arbitration was about right, him wanting to fight Fedor. According to Barnett not signing on to fight Fedor had nothing to do with not wanting to fight Fedor either. 

http://www.cagepotato.com/2008/10/02/something-weird-is-going-on-with-josh-barnett-and-affliction/

I'm not sure that I don't understand how contracts work, but obviously there's something he's not saying.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

rockybalboa25 said:


> According to Barnett not signing on to fight Fedor had nothing to do with not wanting to fight Fedor.
> 
> http://www.cagepotato.com/2008/10/02/something-weird-is-going-on-with-josh-barnett-and-affliction/


Find in my posts where I claimed Barnett turned down a fight with Fedor. :dunno:


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Find in my posts where I claimed Barnett turned down a fight with Fedor. :dunno:


Right but my response about Fedor and the UFC was directed at an argument made by MLS that Fedor has no one to fight since he beaten NOG and Couture and Barnett "didn't want to fight him". Also I was in the process of editing my post to address the striker argument. So if you want to look at it's up now.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Hey rocky, why didn't Barnett fight Fedor at Shockwave 2006?


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## SouthernMan (Sep 23, 2008)

I totally agree with Fedor>all. RockyBalboa is a hater..


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> To answer that stupid question you keep asking, I don't consider P4P in mma because there are way to many variables. But when someone such as yourself spouts of fallacies to try and strengthen your argument I wil question you.


If it's such a dumb question why did you even open the thread to read? Why did you respond to it if you have no opinion on the board. Basically you are a troll who followed me from another thread, about p4p by the way (amazing that someone who doesn't believe in p4p wants to spend time arguing in a thread about it). So since you think this thread is stupid, because silva or Fedor as p4p champ is the topic, I created another board for you: http://www.mmaforum.com/general-mma...or-other-miscellaneous-topics.html#post694726

In this board you can talk about all the dumb crap that doesn't pertain to the best p4p fighters in mma. Any other responses in this board that do not deal with the p4p question will be ignored by me.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> If it's such a dumb question why did you even open the thread to read? Why did you respond to it if you have no opinion on the board. Basically you are a troll who followed me from another thread, about p4p by the way (amazing that someone who doesn't believe in p4p wants to spend time arguing in a thread about it). So since you think this thread is stupid, because silva or Fedor as p4p champ is the topic, I created another board for you: http://www.mmaforum.com/general-mma...or-other-miscellaneous-topics.html#post694726
> 
> In this board you can talk about all the dumb crap that doesn't pertain to the best p4p fighters in mma. Any other responses in this board that do not deal with the p4p question will be ignored by me.


Reading is a wonderful skill.

Me: But when someone such as yourself spouts off fallacies to try and strengthen your argument I will question you.

Also how come is it when I talk about Fedor's record I'm not talking about P4P but your whole reasoning for Fedor not being #1 is because of his record? I think you don't like that I point out where you are wrong.

And I'll put this in big bold letters so you can't say you didn't see it.

*Why didn't Barnett fight Fedor at Shockwave 2006?*


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## SouthernMan (Sep 23, 2008)

Rocky Balboa... You are retarded if you cant see the greatness of Fedor....


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

SouthernMan said:


> Rocky Balboa... You are retarded if you cant see the greatness of Fedor....


I never said Fedor wasn't great. I said that I didn't think he was the best p4p fighter. If he had retired in 2005, I think it would be easy to say he was the greatest of all time in mma. I don't think that his lack of top competition has diminished that either, just as Jordan coming back for the Wizards didn't mean he wasn't the all time greatest. Obviously Jordan had lost a step at that point and wasn't the player he was in 1998. We knew that because he was going against the best in the NBA night after night. Fedor's skills may have not diminished. There's really no way to know if he's the same fighter as in 2005. A quick destruction of Sylvia doesn't necessarily mean he's the same. I would say he's a definte 2/3 if he wins the Arlovski fight. If he wins a close decision I'd say three. If he knocks out, submits, or wins a dominate decision, I'd say #2. I picked Silva, because I think he has done more in his division recently. It's like in the BCS rankings when one team jumps another even though neither lose because of strength of schedule.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Let me just put this out there Rocky since I know you won't ever answer the question.

Here we go, Barnett calls out Fedor after beating Aleks, giving him the whole throat slit deal. He calls out Fedor before Pride 32 and says he wants a shot at him more than anything. Later on, when Mirko can't fight Fedor at Shockwave, Barnett is offered the shot. Barnett says he is too tired and sore to fight at Shockwave. Hunt gets the shot. Barnett then accepts a fight against Nogueira instead, same night as the fight with Fedor would of been.

So to recap,

Fedor was supposed to fight Cro Cop (top 10 HW) at Shockwave 2006 but Cro Cop got injured. Then Barnett gets offered the fight (top 10 HW) he declines so Hunt takes the fight. 

So that is two top 10 guys that Fedor was going to fight in 2006 but couldn't. Yet you hold this against Fedor that Cro Cop got hurt and Barnett wouldn't fight him and you say he was ducking the top competition.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> Let me just put this out there Rocky since I know you won't ever answer the question.
> 
> Here we go, Barnett calls out Fedor after beating Aleks, giving him the whole throat slit deal. He calls out Fedor before Pride 32 and says he wants a shot at him more than anything. Later on, when Mirko can't fight Fedor at Shockwave, Barnett is offered the shot. Barnett says he is too tired and sore to fight at Shockwave. Hunt gets the shot. Barnett then accepts a fight against Nogueira instead, same night as the fight with Fedor would of been.
> 
> ...


Refer all non pound for pound arguments to http://www.mmaforum.com/general-mma...or-other-miscellaneous-topics.html#post694726

This thread is about who the p4p champ is. Those who don't want to take part in such a discussion are in the wrong place.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Do you not use Fedor's "lack of top 10 wins" as a reason to why you don't rank him #1?



rockybalboa25 said:


> Yeah because Fedor has beaten so many ranked fighters in recent years? Wait a minute Sylvia was his f*irst ranked heavyweight in three years*.





rockybalboa25 said:


> But yeah Fedor fights the best. One win over #5 guy doesn't shoot you to the top of the p4p rankings, *when you've been fighting non-heavyweights and non-contenders for three years*



This is P4P discussion so lets see you answer.

So I bring up how Fedor could of had a fight with two fights with top 10 guys and how one turned down the fight and you don't think that is relevant when you are running around saying how he hasn't fought anyone and how he ducked people? Remember, you were the one who was so big on how the sorts writers agreed with you on how Fedor hadn't fought top guys and how Anderson has done more lately (that would refer to his opponents). I won't expect an answer since this puts giant holes in your argument and you have failed to address it the three times I have brought it up.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

For those members who don't have an opinion on the p4p champion. There are other boards to troll. I even created a board for trolls who like to talk about things that have no opinion. http://www.mmaforum.com/general-mma...or-other-miscellaneous-topics.html#post694726


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Right but my response about Fedor and the UFC was directed at an argument made by MLS that Fedor has no one to fight since he beaten NOG and Couture and Barnett "didn't want to fight him". Also I was in the process of editing my post to address the striker argument. So if you want to look at it's up now.


Explain the Shockwave 2006 situation then? Barnett turned down a fight with Fedor for a fight with Nogueira, once Fedor had already found a new opponent.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

F>A, just get prepared to be told to go to his other thread to talk about it because he won't respond because it makes his argument look really dumb.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

MLS said:


> F>A, just get prepared to be told to go to his other thread to talk about it because he won't respond because it makes his argument look really dumb.


I don't understand how people can be like this. I mean, if I'm wrong I'll openly admit it, and apologize for pursuing my original (uninformed) argument. May as well give up on this one MLS.


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## bail3yz (Apr 22, 2007)

I just read this entire thread... threads like this make me wish I could neg rep the same idiot repeatedly.

Also...

you're = you are

If your sentence makes no sense with 'you are' then you can NOT use you're.

With that being said... P4P rankings will be a never ending argument.. Silva #1 MW, Fedor #1 HW... all that really matters.. 

For what its worth, I think if they could fight and somehow weigh in the exact same, with their exact skillsets at the current moment... Fedor would win.. in rd1


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> For those members who don't have an opinion on the p4p champion. There are other boards to troll. I even created a board for trolls who like to talk about things that have no opinion. http://www.mmaforum.com/general-mma...or-other-miscellaneous-topics.html#post694726


You don't need to create a pointless thread to dodge one damn question. Just answer it and get on with the thread.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Explain the Shockwave 2006 situation then? Barnett turned down a fight with Fedor for a fight with Nogueira, once Fedor had already found a new opponent.


According to PRIDE he was not in the best condition to compete(that's from the back of DVD). I don't know if that means he was out of shape. If he was he shouldn't have taken the fight with NOG, because he got owned in that fight. 

Maybe NOG convinced PRIDE that Barnett needed to truly beat him first.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/minotauro-rematches-barnett-at-shockwave-6367

Maybe he didn't feel like he was ready. Maybe he felt that he didn't earn it, since he lost to the injured Cro Cop in the tournament and maybe he felt he didn't really beat NOG. I don't know when it was announced that Cro Cop was injured. Maybe he felt like he didn't have enough time to prepare for a championship fight. I not being Barnett or a member of the PRIDE organization don't know for sure what happened. The truth is that no one knows why for sure. Maybe he was scared to fight Fedor, but all of this is pure speculation. Just because on one occasion (I guess it would be two now) a fighter turns down a fight doesn't mean that fighter is scared. Is Fedor afraid to figh Bigfoot?
http://www.mmafightline.com/news/2007/122/elitexc_309634.shtml

Of courese he isn't. My statement about Fedor turning down a fight with Couture was to point out the ridiculousness of this whole line of argument. I know that there were mitigating circumstances. They couldn't agree on a bunch of things: exclusivity, library ownership, and the list goes on. 

I know that you will say that the same thing could be said for Fedor, that for three years there were mitigating circumstances. That may be true, especially towards the end of PRIDE, when the company was just trying to stay alive. The problem with that is that it doesn't matter why. If Anderson Silva couldn't have come to terms with the UFC, and couldn't get a fight with Lindland or other top guys. If he only had a winner over, say Robbie Lawler, then I wouldn't have said he was the best p4p fighter. I think the difference is coming from how we figure who's the better p4p fighter. I think you're basing on who has the best skill. I am basing it on who has done the most recently. We can go round and round, but since we can't agree on a criteria, I don't think we will come to a conclusion.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> F>A, just get prepared to be told to go to his other thread to talk about it because he won't respond because it makes his argument look really dumb.


You won't respond to my argument either. Does that make you look really dumb? According to you, you don't even have an opinion on the matter. It's easy to attack someone's opinion when you won't state one of you're own.


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## bail3yz (Apr 22, 2007)

bail3yz said:


> I just read this entire thread... threads like this make me wish I could neg rep the same idiot repeatedly.
> 
> Also...
> 
> ...





rockybalboa25 said:


> You won't respond to my argument either. Does that make you look really dumb? According to you, you don't even have an opinion on the matter. It's easy to attack someone's opinion when you won't state one of *you're* own.


Not knowing the difference between you're and your... makes you look really dumb.




rockybalboa25 said:


> I think *you're* basing on who has the best skill. I am basing it on who has done the most recently.


LOLOLOLOL

So you are saying, someone could have more skill than Anderson Silva, but would still be ranked lower than him on your P4P list?


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

bail3yz said:


> Not knowing the difference between you're and your... makes you look really dumb.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's funny to correct someones grammar and then make a grammatical error yourself. In your last statement, you use both passive and active verb tenses. I was not aware that we were being graded on grammar. I really don't care about grammatical errors, but if you do your grammar should be perfect. Remove the plank in your eye before getting the speck out of mine.

Of course. I think most people would agree that Machida has more skill than Forrest Griffin. Does anyone rank him #1 in the LHW division? Nope. This is because he hasn't fought the best in the LHW division.


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## Tilen (Jun 20, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> It's funny to correct someones grammar and then make a grammatical error yourself. In your last statement, you use both passive and active verb tenses.


this isn't a grammatical error.

Dou you agree then that Fedor is more skilled than Anderson?


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## bail3yz (Apr 22, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> It's funny to correct someones grammar and then make a grammatical error yourself. In your last statement, you use both passive and active verb tenses. I was not aware that we were being graded on grammar. I really don't care about grammatical errors, but if you do your grammar should be perfect. Remove the plank in your eye before getting the speck out of mine.
> 
> Of course. I think most people would agree that Machida has more skill than Forrest Griffin. Does anyone rank him #1 in the LHW division? Nope. This is because he hasn't fought the best in the LHW division.


I don't care about grammar errors for the most part, but you are typing YOU'RE instead of YOUR... you are trying to act smart, but doing the complete opposite... what are you thinking when you type YOU'RE incorrectly... do you just use YOU'RE and YOUR randomly? If you don't know the difference between them, just use YOUR all the time.. that way people just think you are lazy. Also, yes I make grammar mistakes all the time. When people use YOU'RE incorrectly it drives me crazy.. definitely a huge pet peeve of mine. Most likely because when I read your post.. I read YOU'RE as YOU ARE.. then it makes no sense.. obviously I catch on right away.. but no one should ever make that mistake.


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## Mjr (Apr 22, 2007)

give it up rocky,
the dreams over.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> According to PRIDE he was not in the best condition to compete(that's from the back of DVD). I don't know if that means he was out of shape. If he was he shouldn't have taken the fight with NOG, because he got owned in that fight.


Barnett said he wasn't fit enough but he was fit enough to fight Nog, kind of weird.



> Maybe NOG convinced PRIDE that Barnett needed to truly beat him first.
> 
> http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/minotauro-rematches-barnett-at-shockwave-6367


Barnett turned down the fight and then they got Hunt as a replacement and then Barnett agreed to fight Nog. Nog didn't make Barnett turn down a fight.

Also when Werdum was in Pride he said he didn't want to fight Fedor.



> Maybe he didn't feel like he was ready. Maybe he felt that he didn't earn it, since he lost to the injured Cro Cop in the tournament and maybe he felt he didn't really beat NOG. I don't know when it was announced that Cro Cop was injured. Maybe he felt like he didn't have enough time to prepare for a championship fight. I not being Barnett or a member of the PRIDE organization don't know for sure what happened. The truth is that no one knows why for sure. Maybe he was scared to fight Fedor, but all of this is pure speculation. Just because on one occasion (I guess it would be two now) a fighter turns down a fight doesn't mean that fighter is scared. Is Fedor afraid to figh Bigfoot?
> http://www.mmafightline.com/news/2007/122/elitexc_309634.shtml


You say this is all speculation but this now multiple times that Barnett has turned down a fight with Fedor, seems to be a trend.

I hope you read that link because even Silva says that Fedor has fought the best in the world. And there is a difference in Fedor turning down a fight with Silva, whom only had 9 fights at the time which Fedor would be criticized for fighting a guy with only 9 fights and not a top a top 10 HW and Barnett, turning down a fight, who had 24 fights and was a top 10 HW is that Fedor had reason to turn down the fight with Silva and Barnett turned down the fight with Fedor for seemingly inexplicable reasons (not fighting Fedor because he wasn't fit but fighting Nogueira instead on the same night he would of fought Fedor). Yes, Fedor ended up fighting Lindland but Silva wasn't a well known fighter and only had 9 fights (not a top 10). And when a fight promotion in need of money to continue they need fighters with name recognition so people will watch the event, Silva did not have this and the HW division still wasn't deep then so you had the HW's from Pride (which Fedor had fought almost all of them) or the ones in the UFC (clear as to why he couldn't fight any of them). Barnett has a history of turning down fights with Fedor.

According to Lindland, on radio Sherdog, *size was NOT the reason he lost to Fedor*, but it was Fedor's great skill.

But your main criticism of Fedor is his "lack of top 10 wins" yet you bring up a fighter who was not in the top 10 at the time as one that Fedor turned down, hmmmmm does this mean you have no proof of Fedor turning down a top 10 fighter? 



> Of courese he isn't. My statement about Fedor turning down a fight with Couture was to point out the ridiculousness of this whole line of argument. I know that there were mitigating circumstances. They couldn't agree on a bunch of things: exclusivity, library ownership, and the list goes on.


There isn't even a reason to state that Fedor turned down a fight with Couture because he never did, doesn't matter what your point was, what you said never happened. Now Randy did turn down a fight with Fedor.



> I know that you will say that the same thing could be said for Fedor, that for three years there were mitigating circumstances. That may be true, especially towards the end of PRIDE, when the company was just trying to stay alive.


This is true, but you have stated Fedor has ducked top competition in the last 3 years, he hasn't. As shown with the Shockwave event where he was willing to fight whomever Pride put in front of him which included 2 top 10 HW's. And he ended up fighting a top 10 HW (yep he was ranked in the top 10) in Hunt.



> The problem with that is that it doesn't matter why. If Anderson Silva couldn't have come to terms with the UFC, and couldn't get a fight with Lindland or other top guys. If he only had a winner over, say Robbie Lawler, then I wouldn't have said he was the best p4p fighter. I think the difference is coming from how we figure who's the better p4p fighter. I think you're basing on who has the best skill. I am basing it on who has done the most recently. We can go round and round, but since we can't agree on a criteria, I don't think we will come to a conclusion.


You do know that P4P was created for *skill* not what someone has done recently? Why did so many people say that Mayweather didn't fight top competition (kind of like Fedor and in both fighters cases the ducking comments were wrong) yet everyone (including sports writers some who also said he was ducking people, since you like to use them) recognized him as the P4P champ? Now I'm going to refute something I know you will try and use against Fedor, yes it does "while he could beat anyone in his own class", Fedor has proven this thus far so in no way can this be used to say that Fedor doesn't deserve #1 because he hasn't fought who you wanted him to fight, which we have gone over your top 3 contenders for Fedor and they did include 2 guys who had turned down fights with Fedor and one he had beaten the hell out of twice.



> Sugar Ray Robinson is one of the most accomplished fighters of all time, but his supporters realized that, while he could beat anyone in his own class, as a Middleweight he would not be able to beat a top Heavyweight. *Hence, Robinson was called the pound-for-pound best without being expected to beat much larger fighters, under the belief that he as a Middleweight was still a better quality fighter than any fighter fighting at heavier or lighter weights than him.*


What's funny is that almost all of Fedor's opponents are bigger then him.



rockybalboa25 said:


> Of course. I think most people would agree that Machida has more skill than Forrest Griffin. Does anyone rank him #1 in the LHW division? Nope. This is because he hasn't fought the best in the LHW division.


Generally, the champ is always going to be ranked number one because well, he is the champ. The UFC hasn't given Machida a chance at the title and prove he is number one because he lacks marketability, not because of his skill or "because he hasn't fought the best in the LHW division" because you don't have to beat the best in a division to get a title shot in the UFC, i.e. Lesnar, BJ, Anderson, Nog, and Randy. 

Now lets look at fighters opinions on this and yes some fighters have Anderson at number one, but look at who is saying that Fedor is and it seems they are basing this on Fedor's *skills* like they should.

"Fedor is the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world aside from B.J. Penn, those two are the best fighters in the world."

-Rampage Jackson, former UFC title-holder (video Sherdog interview, whilepreparingfor rematch with Chuck Liddell)

"Fedor is the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world, and I would pick him to beat Randy Couture. Randy is a great fighter, but my opinion—Fedor."

-Shogun, Pride GP Champion (cagetoday.com video interview, Aug. 31, 2008)

"Fedor"

-GSP, UFC Champion (answering the question "Who is the best pfp fighter in the world?" on InsideMMA, September 2008)

"Fedor is not human. He is definitely the best fighter on earth"

-Tim Sylvia, former UFC Champion (notice that Tim has fought Randy Couture, Nog, prime Ricco, and Arlovski three times. Tim knows what he is saying)

"The best fighter in the world, no doubt."

-Phil Baroni (Real Deal postfight press conference)

"He is the best pfp fighter in the world"

-Jeff Monson, ADCC Champion and UFC title contender

"He is the best"

-Mark Coleman, former UFC heavyweight champion and Pride GP Champion.

"Fedor has no equals."

-Aleksander Mikhailin, three-time World Judo Champion.

"The best fighter to ever climb into any arena is Emelianenko Fedor, he is in a class by himself and you can't compare nobody"

-Kevin Randleman, former UFC Champion (available on YouTube)

"I see no weaknesses in Fedor, he is the most amazing fighter I have ever seen."

-Bas Rutten, former UFC Champion and King of Pancrese.




rockybalboa25 said:


> You won't respond to my argument either. Does that make you look really dumb? According to you, you don't even have an opinion on the matter. It's easy to attack someone's opinion when you won't state one of you're own.


And that argument would be? And I'm not attacking your opinion, I'm mearly pointing out the inaccuracies in your argument.


----------



## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

Damn, Rocky just got owned! :shame02:


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

Yep Pwnd
even top class fighters say that fedor is da best


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> Barnett said he wasn't fit enough but he was fit enough to fight Nog, kind of weird.


Barnett did not say this PRIDE said this. I've never see Barnett give any explanation for this.




MLS said:


> Barnett turned down the fight and then they got Hunt as a replacement and then Barnett agreed to fight Nog. Nog didn't make Barnett turn down a fight. Also when Werdum was in Pride he said he didn't want to fight Fedor.


So you were in the meetings between PRIDE management and Fedor, Barnett, and NOG. Just because PRIDE management claimed one thing happened doesn't make it so. Do you believe everything Dana White said about the the negotiations with Fedor?






MLS said:


> You say this is all speculation but this now multiple times that Barnett has turned down a fight with Fedor, seems to be a trend.


Yes it has happened twice. Fedor turned down the opportunity to fight in the UFC twice. First he signed with m1 global, and then he signed with affliction. However we don't know the circumstances of either. If you're willing to admit that it was mitigating circumstance that kept Fedor from signing with the UFC, why couldn't the same be said for Barnett. 



MLS said:


> I hope you read that link because even Silva says that Fedor has fought the best in the world. And there is a difference in Fedor turning down a fight with Silva, whom only had 9 fights at the time which Fedor would be criticized for fighting a guy with only 9 fights and not a top a top 10 HW and Barnett, turning down a fight, who had 24 fights and was a top 10 HW is that Fedor had reason to turn down the fight with Silva and Barnett turned down the fight with Fedor for seemingly inexplicable reasons (not fighting Fedor because he wasn't fit but fighting Nogueira instead on the same night he would of fought Fedor). Yes, Fedor ended up fighting Lindland but Silva wasn't a well known fighter and only had 9 fights (not a top 10). And when a fight promotion in need of money to continue they need fighters with name recognition so people will watch the event, Silva did not have this and the HW division still wasn't deep then so you had the HW's from Pride (which Fedor had fought almost all of them) or the ones in the UFC (clear as to why he couldn't fight any of them). Barnett has a history of turning down fights with Fedor.


First of all look at the article again. It says he turned down the fight, not they turned down the fight. This means Fedor turned down the fight not BODOG management. Secondly I brought this up to prove that just because a fighter turns down a fight doesn't mean that he's scared of the other fighter. 







MLS said:


> But your main criticism of Fedor is his "lack of top 10 wins" yet you bring up a fighter who was not in the top 10 at the time as one that Fedor turned down, hmmmmm does this mean you have no proof of Fedor turning down a top 10 fighter?


Again Fedor turned down the UFC twice. Both would have guaranteed fights with top ten fighters. 




MLS said:


> There isn't even a reason to state that Fedor turned down a fight with Couture because he never did, doesn't matter what your point was, what you said never happened. Now Randy did turn down a fight with Fedor.


He most certainly did turn down a fight with Randy by not signing with the UFC. Signing with the UFC would have guaranteed him a fight with Couture. Not signing with the UFC guaranteed that he wouldn't be able to fight Couture. 





MLS said:


> This is true, but you have stated Fedor has ducked top competition in the last 3 years, he hasn't. As shown with the Shockwave event where he was willing to fight whomever Pride put in front of him which included 2 top 10 HW's. And he ended up fighting a top 10 HW (yep he was ranked in the top 10) in Hunt.


Again by signing with M1 global, instead of the UFC it ensured he would fight a can like Choi. Also signing with M1 made it so he only fought 3 times in 2007 and 2008. So you say Hunt was a top ten HW. I say he wasn't. Since websites don't archive their ratings I guess we'll never know. 




MLS said:


> You do know that P4P was created for *skill* not what someone has done recently? Why did so many people say that Mayweather didn't fight top competition (kind of like Fedor and in both fighters cases the ducking comments were wrong) yet everyone (including sports writers some who also said he was ducking people, since you like to use them) recognized him as the P4P champ? Now I'm going to refute something I know you will try and use against Fedor, yes it does "while he could beat anyone in his own class", Fedor has proven this thus far so in no way can this be used to say that Fedor doesn't deserve #1 because he hasn't fought who you wanted him to fight, which we have gone over your top 3 contenders for Fedor and they did include 2 guys who had turned down fights with Fedor and one he had beaten the hell out of twice.


So you get to decide the criteria for p4p. I'm glad that someone that doesn't believe that a p4p argument can be made gets to decide how it is decided. Mayweather did fight the toughest fight for him out there in De la Hoya. De la Hoya was bigger and the best fighter left. De la Hoya present a bigger challenge than Cotto. As far as turning down fights he is 1-1 with Couture, since he turned down the opportunity to fight Couture as well. As far as NOG, whom Fedor also turned down the opportunity to fight by not signing with the UFC, their last fight was three years ago. NOG has been busy with top competition since then and regardless of the outcome has earned another shot. 




MLS said:


> Generally, the champ is always going to be ranked number one because well, he is the champ. The UFC hasn't given Machida a chance at the title and prove he is number one because he lacks marketability, not because of his skill or "because he hasn't fought the best in the LHW division" because you don't have to beat the best in a division to get a title shot in the UFC, i.e. Lesnar, BJ, Anderson, Nog, and Randy.


So there's a difference in saying he hasn't fought the champ and he hasn't fought the best in the LHW division? Got it. The point is the ratings are about who you have beaten not your skill level. 



MLS said:


> Now lets look at fighters opinions on this and yes some fighters have Anderson at number one, but look at who is saying that Fedor is and it seems they are basing this on Fedor's *skills* like they should.


Again someone who doesn't believe p4p can be measure probably shouldn't be the one deciding the criteria.



MLS said:


> "Fedor is the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world aside from B.J. Penn, those two are the best fighters in the world."
> 
> -Rampage Jackson, former UFC title-holder (video Sherdog interview, whilepreparingfor rematch with Chuck Liddell)


Did you even read that. He just said BJ Penn is the best p4p fighter in the world not Fedor. 



MLS said:


> "Fedor is the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world, and I would pick him to beat Randy Couture. Randy is a great fighter, but my opinion—Fedor."
> 
> -Shogun, Pride GP Champion (cagetoday.com video interview, Aug. 31, 2008)


Chuck Liddell said Anderson Silva is. What's the point?




MLS said:


> "Fedor is not human. He is definitely the best fighter on earth"
> 
> -Tim Sylvia, former UFC Champion (notice that Tim has fought Randy Couture, Nog, prime Ricco, and Arlovski three times. Tim knows what he is saying)


He just got his butt whooped. What did you expect him to say? Getting destroyed by the best looks better than getting destroyed by a guy who's not the best.



MLS said:


> "The best fighter in the world, no doubt."
> 
> -Phil Baroni (Real Deal postfight press conference)
> 
> ...


A bunch of fighters who haven't been at the top of their division for years. Way to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find a bunch of guys who agree with you (well not you I guess since you won't say Fedor is the best p4p fighter) There are plenty of guys who say that Silva is the best p4p fighter in the world and every credible p4p list has him on top. 




MLS said:


> And that argument would be? And I'm not attacking your opinion, I'm mearly pointing out the inaccuracies in your argument.


The argument would be who is the best p4p fighter. You are obviously arguing that Fedor is the best p4p fighter, but you don't have the balls to say it. It's funny that you argue constantly but have for Fedor yet won't say that he's the best. Just man up and say it.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

Fedor Never ******* Turned Down A Fight With Randy! Ufc Contract Was Toooo ******* Exclusive! Fedor Turned Down Ufc Not ******* Randyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Barnett did not say this PRIDE said this. I've never see Barnett give any explanation for this.


He said it at the Pride Real Deal post fight press conference which is where that comment comes from, this is also when Fedor said he wanted to fight Josh and joked around and called him George (whole video used to be on youtube but it got taken down when UFC bought Pride. Sherdog has part of it but it cuts off at Fedor saying he wants to fight Josh or George as he said). This is one of the reasons Fedor and Barnett never fought in Pride. Others being that he didn't win the GP which was a guaranteed fight with Fedor and the same fight that would of gone down at Shockwave.

He made a similar comment to mmaweekly “For me, basically what it all comes down to is how training goes…and this year has been, uh…something else so far,* but if I feel good, I’ll do it*,” said Barnett."

Since he didn't fight Fedor one can only assume he didn't feel good.



> So you were in the meetings between PRIDE management and Fedor, Barnett, and NOG. Just because PRIDE management claimed one thing happened doesn't make it so. Do you believe everything Dana White said about the the negotiations with Fedor?


See above.



> Yes it has happened twice. Fedor turned down the opportunity to fight in the UFC twice. First he signed with m1 global, and then he signed with affliction. However we don't know the circumstances of either. If you're willing to admit that it was mitigating circumstance that kept Fedor from signing with the UFC, why couldn't the same be said for Barnett.


Was a fight with Randy in the contract because if it wasn't then how did Fedor turn down a fight by not signing? There was talk that Randy may (not confirmed) have a clause to fight Fedor in his second fight on his new contract but was it on Fedor's? You can only say Fedor turned down a fight with Randy if there was a clause to fight him in there.



> As first reported exclusively on Fightline.com over the weekend, the UFC has agreed as part of Couture's new contract, to attempt to co-promote a fight with consensus number one fighter Fedor Emelianenko and Randy Couture. Couture has lobbied to face Emelianenko for almost a year now and the two have met at least twice to try to arrange a match up. White stated that the fight could come as soon as 2009.
> 
> "We’re gonna do everything we can to make that fight happen,” said White. "Emelianenko’s under another contract right now to another promotion and if he becomes available or something works out with that other promotion -- obviously everybody knows how crazy we are about protecting our contracts. Well, we would never do that to somebody else."
> 
> In quite an amazing departure from the UFC's stance regarding working with other promotions, White stated that he was open to co-promoting to make a fight between Couture and Emelianenko.


So if this were the case where the UFC would be open to do a co-promoted fight with M1 why would Fedor need to sign with the UFC? Seems like the UFC is holding this up and not Fedor.



> First of all look at the article again. It says he turned down the fight, not they turned down the fight. This means Fedor turned down the fight not BODOG management. Secondly I brought this up to prove that just because a fighter turns down a fight doesn't mean that he's scared of the other fighter.


Amazing, I said that Fedor had a reason to turn the fight down and then you try and refute my point by saying that it was Fedor who turned down the fight. :confused02:



> Again Fedor turned down the UFC twice. Both would have guaranteed fights with top ten fighters.


 Fedor has fought and will fight top 10 fighters outside the UFC, what is your point?




> He most certainly did turn down a fight with Randy by not signing with the UFC. Signing with the UFC would have guaranteed him a fight with Couture. Not signing with the UFC guaranteed that he wouldn't be able to fight Couture.


But to say he turned down a fight with Randy because he wouldn't sign with the UFC is two different things as I already explained. A fight with Randy wasn't in the contract he turned down therefore there wasn't a guarantee as you say, it is assumed he would of fought Randy but it wasn't part of the contract. 




> Again by signing with M1 global, instead of the UFC it ensured he would fight a can like Choi. Also signing with M1 made it so he only fought 3 times in 2007 and 2008. So you say Hunt was a top ten HW. I say he wasn't. Since websites don't archive their ratings I guess we'll never know.


Fighting ranked guys like Sylvia and Arlovski while with M1. Multiple people have said Hunt was a top 10 HW (which after he beat Cro Cop he became) you just keep denying it because you think it strengthens your argument but it doesn't since you are the only one claiming he isn't. If you would like I can get more people to verify this.

We can't determine Hunt or you don't want me to because here ya go. 

-*Fedor Emelianenko (#1 Heavyweight in the World)** vs. *Mark Hunt (#9 Heavyweight)**

* Based on MMAWeekly Rankings going into the event on December 31, 2006

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/rumors.asp?articleid=2803&zoneid=14



> So you get to decide the criteria for p4p. I'm glad that someone that doesn't believe that a p4p argument can be made gets to decide how it is decided. Mayweather did fight the toughest fight for him out there in De la Hoya. De la Hoya was bigger and the best fighter left. De la Hoya present a bigger challenge than Cotto. As far as turning down fights he is 1-1 with Couture, since he turned down the opportunity to fight Couture as well. As far as NOG, whom Fedor also turned down the opportunity to fight by not signing with the UFC, their last fight was three years ago. NOG has been busy with top competition since then and regardless of the outcome has earned another shot.


I didn't say I determined it but I did show how the people that came up with the term P4P decided it should be defined, I even made it bold it and larger so you would see this. 

Again, I have dealt with this turned Randy fight nonsense down. Fedor and Nog is the same situation as Anderson and Franklin and the latter two see no reason to fight each other again.

DLH didn't offer more then what Margarito, Cotto, or Williams could offer Floyd in terms of how hard the fight would be. Now DLH and Hatton were the biggest fights out there to make money. And if you think DLH was the toughest fight out there for Mayweather that's funny, did you see the DLH/Forbes fight or that DLH was 2-2 in his last 4 fights going into the fight with Mayweather. As seen by the fight, Oscar's style isn't a style that bothers or gives Mayweather trouble. I mean compubox had Oscar only landing 20% of his shots while Floyd was at 50%.



> So there's a difference in saying he hasn't fought the champ and he hasn't fought the best in the LHW division? Got it. The point is the ratings are about who you have beaten not your skill level.


The champ isn't always the best in the division though, look at Serra. No one considered him one of the best WW's when he was the champ but he still had his number 1 ranking. Funny that you brought Machida up as someone who hasn't fought the best, why is he ranked #4, #3, #3 on the three rankings I just looked at if rankings are all about who you beat? So if you say he hasn't fought the best, why is he ranked so high?



> Again someone who doesn't believe p4p can be measure probably shouldn't be the one deciding the criteria.


I'm not, the people that came up with the term are and what I posted was their criteria.


> Did you even read that. He just said BJ Penn is the best p4p fighter in the world not Fedor.


He also said "those two are the best fighters in the world" kind of puts them on equal ground.


> Chuck Liddell said Anderson Silva is. What's the point?


You say that skill isn't what determines P4P when fighters disagree based on their assessments, thought I made this clear when I said this "it seems they are basing this on Fedor's skills like they should." I even put skills in bold.




> He just got his butt whooped. What did you expect him to say? Getting destroyed by the best looks better than getting destroyed by a guy who's not the best.


He got beat by Mir (who broke his arm) got beat by Arlovski (got subbed), got beat by Couture (embarrassed is probably a better term) and he didn't say they were the best.



> A bunch of fighters who haven't been at the top of their division for years. Way to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find a bunch of guys who agree with you (well not you I guess since you won't say Fedor is the best p4p fighter) There are plenty of guys who say that Silva is the best p4p fighter in the world and every credible p4p list has him on top.


SO because they are past their primes makes their opinion irrelevant? You would thinks it's the opposite because of how long they have been around the game.




> The argument would be who is the best p4p fighter. You are obviously arguing that Fedor is the best p4p fighter, but you don't have the balls to say it. It's funny that you argue constantly but have for Fedor yet won't say that he's the best. Just man up and say it.


I'm not arguing for Fedor, I (how many times do I have to post this) am just refuting your fallacies about him. And if I don't believe in P4P in mma how can I be arguing for or against someone like you say? Now I will predict that you will say that I'm just trolling if I'm not arguing for or against someone in P4P, so I will reiterate this, I am just refuting your fallacies about Fedor.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

nice post MLS =)


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

The MLS and Rocky debate reminds me of a parent(MLS) trying to explain something to his/her child(Rocky) and the child is trying everything in his/her power to debate the parent, yet each time has to rehash what he/she has already stated even though it didn't make sense the first time, much less the 10th.

I've already stated my opinion before on the topic. Fedor is pound for pound the best and will be for a long time.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

mls 1 
rocky 0 

lol


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## AceFranklin88 (Apr 21, 2007)

Haha wow this is still going on. Aren't Top 10 rankings based on who has done what lately, while P4P is based on skill (or who would beat who if weight was not a factor)? If this is indeed the case, then Fedor is the best. So stop. "But how do you know Fedor's skills would hold up in top competition if he hasn't fought top competition lately?" I think guys like Nog could easily answer that one for you guys. Stupid argument. Dana says that Anderson is the best, so people instantly believe it. 

Oh and nice posts MLS. :thumb02:


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## mmawrestler (May 18, 2008)

I didnt read all the post but there sure are alot cheap banwagon fans jumping off the silva bandwagon, the guy was just utilizing his gameplan, you may not like it but that is what he is doing, I see him and fedor and dead even, or Silva with a slight edge, until one of them loses or one comes out a clear winner,


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Wow 16 pages.. didnt think it would last this long.

Anyway P4P is based on skill and not on what someone has done recently. Since that is the case, then Fedor should definitely be above Anderson Silva, He has beat many top10 opponents and it dosent matter when because we havent had any fights recently to proove that his skill has went down since 3 years ago. If anything we have proof that he has goten better (beating Tim Sylvia in what under 1 min???) Now who has Anderson Silva beat thats in the top 10?? Dan Henderson and uhh Rich Franklin?? I dont think thats enough to solidify your place as the best P4P fighter. I personally think if you could shrink Fedor to Anderson sice that Anderson Silva would get DEMOLISHED.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> Was a fight with Randy in the contract because if it wasn't then how did Fedor turn down a fight by not signing? There was talk that Randy may (not confirmed) have a clause to fight Fedor in his second fight on his new contract but was it on Fedor's? You can only say Fedor turned down a fight with Randy if there was a clause to fight him in there.


Well according to Dana White it was the plan to have Fedor fight Randy right away.

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=4778&zoneid=13




MLS said:


> So if this were the case where the UFC would be open to do a co-promoted fight with M1 why would Fedor need to sign with the UFC? Seems like the UFC is holding this up and not Fedor.


Hey there's something we can agree on. I don't think there is any way the UFC will ever cross-promote. From a standpoint of what's best for the sport, it's a good idea. From a pure business standpoint it isn't. I also think that UFC hype machine sometimes distorts the reality of the landscape of mma (I don't believe this is the case with Silva, obviously). However if Dana White tells everyone that Fedor sucks, they will believe him. Let me be clear I do not think Fedor sucks. He is incredibly talented. So these fans will flock to UFC events and PPV's. Just as an example of most fans level of knowledge: When I was at UFC 90, a guy mention Mark Coleman and no one knew who he was. Then he said he's fighting Shogun next, and no one knew who Shogun was. If Dana can keep the masses happy and the money rolling in, there won't be any cross-promotion.







MLS said:


> But to say he turned down a fight with Randy because he wouldn't sign with the UFC is two different things as I already explained. A fight with Randy wasn't in the contract he turned down therefore there wasn't a guarantee as you say, it is assumed he would of fought Randy but it wasn't part of the contract.


Again Dana said the fight would be immediate. 
http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=4778&zoneid=13



MLS said:


> Fighting ranked guys like Sylvia and Arlovski while with M1. Multiple people have said Hunt was a top 10 HW (which after he beat Cro Cop he became) you just keep denying it because you think it strengthens your argument but it doesn't since you are the only one claiming he isn't. If you would like I can get more people to verify this.
> 
> We can't determine Hunt or you don't want me to because here ya go.
> 
> ...


As far as Hunt is concerned I will concede that he was at least ranked by mmaweekly to be a top 10 heavyweight. I truly did search to try to find it, but used a different method. I went to different websites ranking sections and tried to go back as far as the cataloged them. None of them archived them that far back. I have always said that I think Hunt is overrated, not just when talking about Fedor. It has always bothered me that a lot of consider him an elite heavyweight. I think in a non-Fedor related I called him the most overrated heavyweight in the world.




MLS said:


> I didn't say I determined it but I did show how the people that came up with the term P4P decided it should be defined, I even made it bold it and larger so you would see this.


Just to clarify (really not trying to be a dick here) are you saying that p4p (by industry standard) is only based on ability? That skills are the true measurement, and fight statistics have no bearing? 



MLS said:


> Again, I have dealt with this turned Randy fight nonsense down. Fedor and Nog is the same situation as Anderson and Franklin and the latter two see no reason to fight each other again.


Was Randy even eligible to fight Fedor or was he still under contract? Any athlete if they retire is still bound by their old contract.

He said he was offered $3 million to fight Fedor for Bodog over a year ago. "What did I do? I went to Dana and Lorenzo and told them 'this is what these guys are offering me to fight Fedor, in their show. I am interested in fighting again.' And they said 'Well if you're interested in fighting again, we need somebody to fight Tim Sylvia. Fight for the heavyweight championship with us.' And that's what I did."

from 

http://www.sportsline.com/columns/weblogs/entry/10421520

Does that mean that Dana and Lorenzo told him that his only choice was to fight Syliva. IF that was the case than we can't say that Randy turned down a fight with Fedor.



MLS said:


> DLH didn't offer more then what Margarito, Cotto, or Williams could offer Floyd in terms of how hard the fight would be. Now DLH and Hatton were the biggest fights out there to make money. And if you think DLH was the toughest fight out there for Mayweather that's funny, did you see the DLH/Forbes fight or that DLH was 2-2 in his last 4 fights going into the fight with Mayweather. As seen by the fight, Oscar's style isn't a style that bothers or gives Mayweather trouble. I mean compubox had Oscar only landing 20% of his shots while Floyd was at 50%.


While Oscar did lose the fight, he did win many of the early rounds. Connect percentage isn't always the best way to judge. Oscar threw a lot more punches, so in my mind punches landed is a better judgment. Don't get me wrong, when Oscar stopped using his jab Floyd picked him apart and won the fight. I still think he was the biggest challenge to Mayweather. As far as Cotto, his chin has always been suspect. Remember he got knocked down by Torres. I think Magarito proved it. Williams is a fighter who relies on his speed. The problem is that Mayweather was faster than Williams. I know he has power as well. Even though he beat him badly in the rematch, Williams lost Quinta, who I don't consider a top fighter. As far as Magarito is concerned it is well documented that he turned down a fight with Mayweather. Also he was easily beaten by Williams stick and move style. I don't see that he would have faired any better against Mayweather. 



The champ isn't always the best in the division though, look at Serra. No one considered him one of the best WW's when he was the champ but he still had his number 1 ranking. Funny that you brought Machida up as someone who hasn't fought the best, why is he ranked #4, #3, #3 on the three rankings I just looked at if rankings are all about who you beat? So if you say he hasn't fought the best, why is he ranked so high?




MLS said:


> He also said "those two are the best fighters in the world" kind of puts them on equal ground.


No he said aside from Penn he's the best. That means that if Penn weren't in the picture he'd be the best. Therefore he said Penn was #1.




MLS said:


> You say that skill isn't what determines P4P when fighters disagree based on their assessments, thought I made this clear when I said this "it seems they are basing this on Fedor's skills like they should." I even put skills in bold.


How do you know fighters like Liddell and Florian don't think that Silva has more skill than Fedor. Also Frank Mir has said multiple times on mma live that he thinks that lighter fighters generally have more skills. He has used Penn, GSP, and Silva as examples of fighters better than Fedor. Not saying I agree with all of those, but he based his on skill and said Fedor wasn't #1.




MLS said:


> He got beat by Mir (who broke his arm) got beat by Arlovski (got subbed), got beat by Couture (embarrassed is probably a better term) and he didn't say they were the best.


Sylvia made excuses for two of those losses. He said that he wasn't ready for Arlovski the first time. He said that he had a herniated disc or some back injury against Couture. I don't know if he had an excuse other than he got caught by Mir. But I think we can all say that the worst and fastest loss of his career was to Fedor. That was point that he obviously is going to say Fedor is the best. 



MLS said:


> SO because they are past their primes makes their opinion irrelevant? You would thinks it's the opposite because of how long they have been around the game.


No but they are from the old school of mma, where you only needed one discipline. When guys like Randleman and Coleman only needed wrestling to win their UFC titles. The reason that they were not successful in PRIDE was due to their lack of learning other skills. Neither ever really developed a good standup game. So I don't think their opinions should matter as much as someone who is a well-rounded fighter, and understands all aspects of the game better. 

There is a very well-rounded fighter, who knows Fedor very well that doesn't think he's the best.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_y...9Eo14?slug=ki-fedor081308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Maybe it's just humility.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> Wow 16 pages.. didnt think it would last this long.
> 
> Anyway P4P is based on skill and not on what someone has done recently. Since that is the case, then Fedor should definitely be above Anderson Silva, He has beat many top10 opponents and it dosent matter when because we havent had any fights recently to proove that his skill has went down since 3 years ago. If anything we have proof that he has goten better (beating Tim Sylvia in what under 1 min???) Now who has Anderson Silva beat thats in the top 10?? Dan Henderson and uhh Rich Franklin?? I dont think thats enough to solidify your place as the best P4P fighter. I personally think if you could shrink Fedor to Anderson sice that Anderson Silva would get DEMOLISHED.


Anderson also beat Marquardt who was a top 10 MW at the time. He also beat Franklin twice. Just to clarify. As far as shrinking would Fedor have the same speed as he does at Heavyweight or would he have middleweight speed? Would he lose strength because of the shrinking? Would he have more agility because of being smaller? IMO there are too many variables for a shrinking scenario to be able to say what would happen. I think if you're using a skill ratings system (I obviously don't because it's subjective) you would have to judge how well their skills work according to their division.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Anderson also beat Marquardt who was a top 10 MW at the time. He also beat Franklin twice. Just to clarify. As far as shrinking would Fedor have the same speed as he does at Heavyweight or would he have middleweight speed? Would he lose strength because of the shrinking? Would he have more agility because of being smaller? IMO there are too many variables for a shrinking scenario to be able to say what would happen. I think if you're using a skill ratings system (I obviously don't because it's subjective) you would have to judge how well their skills work according to their division.


Well his speed and strenght would definitely change according to his body. He will be faster then he is at heavyweight and would be less strong but he is usually fighting bigger heavyweights so thats not a problem. I personally dont see the problem in the shrinking scenario.
Yea i do realize he beat Rich Franklin twice. Fedor beat Nog twice so i guess that would even it out ehh?? And yea i wasent sure if Nate Marquardt was top 10 at the time cuz before UFC he was dominating Pancrase i think which if you ask me should have no bearing on MMA top 10 and after managed to get 4 wins before loosing to Anderson. So yea my bad on not including Nate to the top10 list that Anderson has beat.


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## bail3yz (Apr 22, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> There is a very well-rounded fighter, who knows Fedor very well that doesn't think he's the best.
> 
> http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_y...9Eo14?slug=ki-fedor081308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
> 
> Maybe it's just humility.


Anderson doesnt think hes the best either.. so I guess neither of them are the best... 

Im pretty sure GSP doesnt think hes best p4p either.. 
BJ Penn does tho.. so I guess BJ Penn is #1 P4P

Problem solved.


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## Judoka (Feb 23, 2007)

bail3yz said:


> Anderson doesnt think hes the best either.. so I guess neither of them are the best...
> 
> Im pretty sure GSP doesnt think hes best p4p either..
> BJ Penn does tho.. so I guess BJ Penn is #1 P4P
> ...


How can BJ be when I am?

Seriously, I like Rich but Nog's skills are better then Rich's. When Fedor faced Cro Cop his striking was devastating.

I rate Fedor ahead of Anderson by a fair bit. They are obviously both amazing fighters but Fedor is incredible.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Well according to Dana White it was the plan to have Fedor fight Randy right away.
> 
> http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=4778&zoneid=13


It was but this does not mean it was in Fedor's contract to fight Randy which means Fedor didn't turn down a fight with Randy.

From your article.



> White and the UFC have big plans for Emelianenko *if they can secure the deal*. "What we'd want to do is, we'd want to know who is the best heavyweight in the world. So *if we sign Fedor*, Fedor comes right in and fights Randy Couture for the title," stated White.



A lot of if's in there which means that is all speculation but Fedor wasn't signed, so he didn't turn down the fight. It's obvious why Fedor turned down the UFC, you are trying to say that because he didn't sign with the UFC he turned down a fight with Randy yet you can't prove there was a offer to fight Randy in the contract he turned down which is essential for your argument that Fedor turned down a fight with Randy. Until you can prove there was a fight that Fedor turned down not just that he said no to the UFC because of their restrictions on him, this is just classified as you once again making a false claim.



> Again Dana said the fight would be immediate.
> http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=4778&zoneid=13


See above



> As far as Hunt is concerned I will concede that he was at least ranked by mmaweekly to be a top 10 heavyweight. I truly did search to try to find it, but used a different method. I went to different websites ranking sections and tried to go back as far as the cataloged them. None of them archived them that far back. I have always said that I think Hunt is overrated, not just when talking about Fedor. It has always bothered me that a lot of consider him an elite heavyweight. I think in a non-Fedor related I called him the most overrated heavyweight in the world.


Doesn't matter what you think, Hunt was ranked and you stated he wasn't.




> Just to clarify (really not trying to be a dick here) are you saying that p4p (by industry standard) is only based on ability? That skills are the true measurement, and fight statistics have no bearing?


I am stating that *the people that came up with P4P* said that it was based on the quality (skills) of the fighter. I'll try and make it simple what they were saying, P4P means that if Fedor and Anderson were naturally the same weight, who would have the better skills.

Now read this quote carefully because this is getting quite redundant. 



> Robinson is one of the most accomplished fighters of all time, but his supporters realized that, *while he could beat anyone in his own class, as a Middleweight he would not be able to beat a top Heavyweight. Hence, Robinson was called the pound-for-pound best without being expected to beat much larger fighters, under the belief that he as a Middleweight was still a better quality fighter than any fighter fighting at heavier or lighter weights than him.*


So Robinson was the better skilled fighter compared to the HW's but because of the size disadvantage and power disadvantage because Robinson was smaller he wasn't expected to beat the HW's but as far as skill, he was better thus making him P4P the better fighter between him and larger fighters.

Which as I stated the first time I posted this, Fedor mainly fights guys that are bigger then him since he is a small HW. Look at the other HW's on the Affliction card, Fedor 6 ft 230 lb, Sylvia 6 ft 8 263 lb, Barnett 6 ft 3 in 256 lb, Rizzo 6 ft 1 242 lb, Arlovski 6 ft 4 241 lb, Rothwell 6 ft 5 264 lb.



> Was Randy even eligible to fight Fedor or was he still under contract? Any athlete if they retire is still bound by their old contract.
> 
> He said he was offered $3 million to fight Fedor for Bodog over a year ago. "What did I do? I went to Dana and Lorenzo and told them 'this is what these guys are offering me to fight Fedor, in their show. I am interested in fighting again.' And they said 'Well if you're interested in fighting again, we need somebody to fight Tim Sylvia. Fight for the heavyweight championship with us.' And that's what I did."
> 
> ...


Well, Randy left the UFC on Oct 11th 2007 and the reports of him turning down the fight came out on Oct 25th 2007 so who knows. But if you read this quote it kind of makes sense.



> Randy later said that he came out of retirement to fight for the UFC heavyweight title *after *turning down a $3 million dollar offer from the Bodog organization for a match with Fedor Emelianenko.


http://www.mmafightline.com/news/2007/1025/randy_couture_306559.shtml



> While Oscar did lose the fight, he did win many of the early rounds. Connect percentage isn't always the best way to judge. Oscar threw a lot more punches, so in my mind punches landed is a better judgment. Don't get me wrong, when Oscar stopped using his jab Floyd picked him apart and won the fight. I still think he was the biggest challenge to Mayweather. As far as Cotto, his chin has always been suspect. Remember he got knocked down by Torres. I think Magarito proved it. Williams is a fighter who relies on his speed. The problem is that Mayweather was faster than Williams. I know he has power as well. Even though he beat him badly in the rematch, Williams lost Quinta, who I don't consider a top fighter. As far as Magarito is concerned it is well documented that he turned down a fight with Mayweather. Also he was easily beaten by Williams stick and move style. I don't see that he would have faired any better against Mayweather.


 
Problem with your argument is that styles make fights. Oscar's style is not one that bothers Floyd. Where Cotto, Margarito, and Williams will. Cotto got broken down by Antonio but Floyd doesn't fight like Antonio so it is highly doubtful Floyd would hurt Cotto. What do you need to do to slow Floyd down, go to the body and what does Cotto do best, go to the body. Antonio would use his same never stop coming forward approach and not let Floyd get comfortable and yes he did get beat by Williams and the stick and move, Floyd also isn't 6 ft 1 which helped Williams win that fight. And Williams will give anyone at 147 or 154, hell even 160 (since he is massively being ducked at the lower weights) problems because of his size and speed. They may not beat Floyd but they would all be a lot tougher then Oscar was. The Oscar fight for Floyd was all about money, not a test.




> No he said aside from Penn he's the best. That means that if Penn weren't in the picture he'd be the best. Therefore he said Penn was #1.


So he didn't say they were "those two are the best fighters in the world" that's the direct quote (notice he didn't say Anderson which was the point of the quote). Which again, I was showing skill over your argument because Penn's record isn't great (4-3 in his last 7 fights) and he gets shit for being lazy but Rampage still thinks he is one of the best fighters in the world along with Fedor because of skill.




> How do you know fighters like Liddell and Florian don't think that Silva has more skill than Fedor. Also Frank Mir has said multiple times on mma live that he thinks that lighter fighters generally have more skills. He has used Penn, GSP, and Silva as examples of fighters better than Fedor. Not saying I agree with all of those, but he based his on skill and said Fedor wasn't #1.


They could but my point was to show how P4P is based on skill, contrary to your argument. And in Mir's opinion, they may have better skills then Fedor but *your* argument was that P4P wasn't based on skill but Mir (the guy you bring up) is using skill to say that those guys are better but I bet he also thinks that if those fighters fought Fedor at their current weights that they would lose because of the size difference (sound familiar, kind of like the quote about Robinson).



> Sylvia made excuses for two of those losses. He said that he wasn't ready for Arlovski the first time. He said that he had a herniated disc or some back injury against Couture. I don't know if he had an excuse other than he got caught by Mir. But I think we can all say that the worst and fastest loss of his career was to Fedor. That was point that he obviously is going to say Fedor is the best.


The point is that he had excuses for those guys but he never said they were the best. After losing to Fedor he realized there wasn't an excuse to use because Fedor is the best in his opinion. You were the one who brought up the fact that he only said it because he got beat by Fedor, I provided Sylvia's other loses were he lost and didn't claim the other fighter was the best. 



> No but they are from the old school of mma, where you only needed one discipline. When guys like Randleman and Coleman only needed wrestling to win their UFC titles. The reason that they were not successful in PRIDE was due to their lack of learning other skills. Neither ever really developed a good standup game. So I don't think their opinions should matter as much as someone who is a well-rounded fighter, and understands all aspects of the game better.


What about GSP (remember you brought up that Mir thought GSP had more skill then Fedor)? You think Bas' opinion is irrelevant? Also just because those guys weren't proficient at a certain skill doesn't mean that they can't see greatness. This is like you saying Anderson is the best when you aren't even a fighter, their opinion is more relevant then yours yet you feel the need to say Andy is #1 and they aren't capable of saying Fedor is #1 even though they have actually fought and been around other great fighters?



> There is a very well-rounded fighter, who knows Fedor very well that doesn't think he's the best.
> 
> http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_y...9Eo14?slug=ki-fedor081308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
> 
> Maybe it's just humility.


What the hell is the point of this, Fedor has never claimed to be the best. Anderson said he wasn't the best am I supposed to bring that up?


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

i think we can say there's only one way to solve this.... FIGHT!!!!!


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

rockybalboa25 said:


> No he said aside from Penn he's the best. That means that if Penn weren't in the picture he'd be the best. Therefore he said Penn was #1.


And it's still above SIlva. You shouldn't have pointed that out, it doesn't benefit you at all


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> It was but this does not mean it was in Fedor's contract to fight Randy which means Fedor didn't turn down a fight with Randy.
> 
> From your article.
> 
> ...


You're right I can't prove that it was in the contract. All I can do as go on the word of Dana White. Since he was in the meetings, I think he probably has more insight than us. 








MLS said:


> I am stating that *the people that came up with P4P* said that it was based on the quality (skills) of the fighter. I'll try and make it simple, P4P means that if Fedor and Anderson were naturally the same weight, who would have the better skills.


Ring magazine and KO magazine were the first publications to publish "p4p rankings". It was originally called "Dynamite Dozen" in KO and pound for pound in Ring. They are the one's who "came up with p4p" as pertaining to boxing. Then once mma started having weight classes the formula was used in mma.

Here is a direct quote from KO magazine in November 1998 as pertaining to their KO 100:

"Putting together the "KO 100" consist of hardk work, painstaking research, and a whole lot of head scratching. As an extension of our monthly Dyamite Dozen ratings, it is an attempt to rank the best 100 fighters in the world on a pound-for-pound basis. And because opinion factors in AS MUCH AS STATISTICS, there will undoubtedly be as many readers who disagree with the outcome as those who think we're pretty much on the mark."

That is one of "the people who came up with p4p" saying fight statistics do matter. Sorry to burst your bubble.







MLS said:


> Problem with your argument is that styles make fights. Oscar's style is not one that bothers Floyd. Where Cotto, Margarito, and Williams will. Cotto got broken down by Antonio but Floyd doesn't fight like Antonio so it is highly doubtful Floyd would hurt Cotto. What do you need to do to slow Floyd down, go to the body and what does Cotto do best, go to the body. Antonio would use his same never stop coming forward approach and not let Floyd get comfortable and yes he did get beat by Williams and the stick and move, Floyd also isn't 6 ft 1 which helped Williams win that fight. And Williams will give anyone at 147 or 154, hell even 160 (since he is massively being ducked at the lower weights) problems because of his size and speed. They may not beat Floyd but they would all be a lot tougher then Oscar was. The Oscar fight for Floyd was all about money, not a test.


I first think why Oscar would do better than Cotto is that he has a better jab. In order to get close enough to Mayweather to throw body shots, you need a good jab. That's why Oscar was winning when he used it and losing when he stopped. The problem with comparing Floyd to Antonio is that no one fights like Floyd. I do think Floyd could hurt Cotto. He knocked out Hatton, Corralles, Gatti, and Manfredy. I don't think Antonio's, who didn't want to fight Floyd, approach would work. Since Magarito doesn't have a big reach advantage or a good jab, I think that Floyd would easily circle him and pick him apart with his jab and straight rights. That's basically what Williams did to him. Williams might be the only exception, although I think his loss to quinta puts up a ?.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

rockybalboa25 said:


> And because opinion factors in AS MUCH AS STATISTICS,
> 
> That is one of "the people who came up with p4p" saying fight statistics do matter. Sorry to burst your bubble.


That quote doesn't really help your argument as it seems like they're using it to stress how much opinion factors in and it shouldn't be based purely on statistics.

And I'm not sure where you're going with this whole "Ring magazine came up with pfp not people" its not as if they're not people is it? Oh I forgot, ring magazine's written by robots isn't it?:thumb02:


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> You're right I can't prove that it was in the contract. All I can do as go on the word of Dana White. Since he was in the meetings, I think he probably has more insight than us.


His word was speculation though since he kept saying if, so you have nothing to even base that off of.



> Ring magazine and KO magazine were the first publications to publish "p4p rankings". It was originally called "Dynamite Dozen" in KO and pound for pound in Ring. They are the one's who "came up with p4p" as pertaining to boxing. Then once mma started having weight classes the formula was used in mma.
> 
> Here is a direct quote from KO magazine in November 1998 as pertaining to their KO 100:
> 
> ...


What statistics are they referring to because I don't see where it says *as you argue for, what a fighter has done recently.* But an argument can be defined as statistics (which shows their skill), if fighter a (WW) and fighter b (HW) were in the same weight class and were to fight against one another, which fighter would would win? Plenty of statistics to look at in this scenario, what fighter a's punch rate is, what their opponents punch rate against them is, what fighter a's accuracy is, what is fighter a's opponents accuracy is and so on. Doesn't it just seem that this is the more logical approach instead of, fighter a beat fighter c and fighter b beat fighter d but fighter d was a lesser fighter then fighter c so we ranked fighter a, as #1 P4P, especially when comparing fighters in different weight classes?

No bubble busted since you have come up with evidence that doesn't argue against what I stated, which was that the people who came up with this stated it was about the quality of the fighter, you provided an undefined statement. 

I go by what *the original people say it was*, nice try though but I can quote things to.



> That phrase "pound for pound" -- *used to describe a boxer whose skill* in the ring puts him head and shoulders above every other fighter in the world, in any weight division -- was first coined for the one fighter most boxing aficionados agree was the best fighter in history: Sugar Ray Robinson.





> One of the easiest ways to get into a debate on boxing is to try and rank the sport’s top practitioners on a pound-for-pound basis. Everyone’s got an opinion and there’s no way to definitely determine who’s right and who’s wrong. *Sure Wladimir Klitschko would defeat Floyd Mayweather if they fought each other -- Klitschko outweighs Pretty Boy by 100 pounds! But if - and this is the big if – Klitschko and Mayweather were in the same weight class and were to match their skills against one another in the ring, which fighter would emerge victorious?*





> Pound for pound means, judging purely PER POUND OF WEIGHT one fighter is better than all the rest. Read that again please. And again. *This means that a specific fighter, regardless of what weight he actually fights at, would be the favorite to defeat any/every opponent at any weight.*





> Let's set aside all this talk of unskilled brawlers who may or may not deserve your attention. Instead, a shift in focus to the 10 best mixed martial artists should make for a nice palate cleanser.
> 
> At the very least, they've shown themselves capable of finishing a fight on the feet or the floor, with strikes or submissions. *But more importantly, they come equipped with intangibles that separate the skilled from the truly great fighters*.





> I first think why Oscar would do better than Cotto is that he has a better jab. In order to get close enough to Mayweather to throw body shots, you need a good jab. That's why Oscar was winning when he used it and losing when he stopped. The problem with comparing Floyd to Antonio is that no one fights like Floyd. I do think Floyd could hurt Cotto. He knocked out Hatton, Corralles, Gatti, and Manfredy. I don't think Antonio's, who didn't want to fight Floyd, approach would work. Since Magarito doesn't have a big reach advantage or a good jab, I think that Floyd would easily circle him and pick him apart with his jab and straight rights. That's basically what Williams did to him. Williams might be the only exception, although I think his loss to quinta puts up a ?.


Floyd would have to fight like he did against Gatti (which I deal with your lie later) or Ndou to hurt Cotto. And Cotto can get inside on Floyd.

You know who came close to beating Floyd (and some feel that Floyd lost), Castillo, you know who could do what Castillo did, Margarito. Just like Castillo Antonio would cut off the ring and use his strength to wear down Mayweather.

Williams has one loss and that puts up a question, that's just stupid. Almost everyone loses, even your Anderson (to lesser opponents I may add).

By the way Mayweather did not KO Hatton (ref stoppage/corner stoppage), Gatti (corner stoppage), Corrales (corner stoppage), or Manfredy (ref stoppage). KO implies that the fighter got knocked out, none of the fighters were knocked out. He did however KO Juuko, Girard, and Garcia.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

did not oscar win? i scored split for oscar imho


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> What statistics are they referring to because I don't see where it says *as you argue for, what a fighter has done recently.* But an argument can be defined as statistics (which shows their skill), if fighter a (WW) and fighter b (HW) were in the same weight class and were to fight against one another, which fighter would would win? Plenty of statistics to look at in this scenario, what fighter a's punch rate is, what their opponents punch rate against them is, what fighter a's accuracy is, what is fighter a's opponents accuracy is and so on. Doesn't it just seem that this is the more logical approach instead of, fighter a beat fighter c and fighter b beat fighter d but fighter d was a lesser fighter then fighter c so we ranked fighter a, as #1 P4P, especially when comparing fighters in different weight classes?
> 
> No bubble busted since you have come up with evidence that doesn't argue against what I stated, which was that the people who came up with this stated it was about the quality of the fighter, you provided an undefined statement.


Need a definition, I'll help you out. Websters definition of statistics:
A branch of mathematics dealing with the collection, analysis, interpretation, and presentation of masses of NUMERICAL data.

Since skills in no way can be measured numerically, they cannot be statistics. It was nice attempt at save, but I hope you not unintelligent enough to think that something that is subjective can be measured statistically. Also I don't know where those quotes comes from since you didn't site them. However I doubt they came from "those who came up with pound for pound" as Ring Magazine and KO (whom I already stated were the first to publish pound for pound rankings). While the quote obviously allows for the evaluation of skills along with statistics, it debunks your claim that is based completely on a measurement of skill. 













MLS said:


> Floyd would have to fight like he did against Gatti (which I deal with your lie later) or Ndou to hurt Cotto. And Cotto can get inside on Floyd.
> 
> You know who came close to beating Floyd (and some feel that Floyd lost), Castillo, you know who could do what Castillo did, Margarito. Just like Castillo Antonio would cut off the ring and use his strength to wear down Mayweather.
> 
> ...


AS you may or may not be aware, in boxing the term knockout includes referee stoppages, tko's, and ko's. That is why it is said that Floyd Mayweather's record is 39 wins with no losses and 25 wins coming by way of knockout. The point was that Mayweather has stopping power. He was the only man to stop Hatton. He was one of only two men to stop Brussles, Chavez, Corrales, and Manfredy. Obviously Floyd is not the type of fighter with one punch knockout strength. Few Welterweights are. Cotto, Margarito, and Williams depend also on wearing down the other fighter to an eventual stoppage. I don't see why Floyd couldn't fight Magarito in the same way he fought Gatti. The obvious difference between Margarito and Castillo is that Castillo does have one punch ko power. IMO Castillo, in his prime,was a more punishing puncher and therefore was able to slow Mayweather more. You like the word fallacy. Whenever you use the word everyone when not dealing with scientific fact will almost always lead to fallacy. Obviously everyone does not lose, because Floyd retired at 39-0. Also it is not the fact that Williams lost that is important. It's who he lost two. God love Carlos Quinta, but he's not exactly a top tier fighter. If he could develop a strategy to beat Williams, you don't think Mayweather could have come up with one much easier? Maybe we should discuss this further in the boxing forum, since this is off topic. It's up to you.


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## NikosCC (May 16, 2007)

Fedor by Arm bar in the first round..


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Need a definition, I'll help you out. Websters definition of statistics:
> A branch of mathematics dealing with the collection, analysis, interpretation, and presentation of masses of NUMERICAL data.
> 
> Since skills in no way can be measured numerically, they cannot be statistics. It was nice attempt at save, but I hope you not unintelligent enough to think that something that is subjective can be measured statistically. Also I don't know where those quotes comes from since you didn't site them. However I doubt they came from "those who came up with pound for pound" as Ring Magazine and KO (whom I already stated were the first to publish pound for pound rankings). While the quote obviously allows for the evaluation of skills along with statistics, it debunks your claim that is based completely on a measurement of skill.


So, what you are saying is that punch accuracy, kick accuracy, sub attempts, successful submissions and so on can't be looked at from a statistical point of view (those are skills by the way which can be used to compare fighters)? It's funny because they kept using these statistics to show why Anderson was the most accurate (the best) striker in UFC history or GSP's takedown percentage to show that it was one of the best or the amount of time GSP has been on his back in the UFC or how many times Fitch has had his guard passed. These are all statistics to show how good the fighter was at a certain skill.

Which in other sports when you talk about stats you are talking about what happened in the game. Take football for instance, when you look up stats you see, pts/g, yards/g, total amount of passing yards, total amount of rushing yards, TOP, 3rd down percentage, 4th down percentage, ect. Seems like these stats are comparable to what happens in a fight, punch accuracy, kick accuracy, sub attempts, successful submissions and so on.

Also, show me in your quote where they say that what a fighter has done recently is a requirement because that is your argument and my argument does involve statistics, so show me otherwise or this is again a *fallacy* on your part, don't hide behind it prove it.

My quotes came from boxing websites and one was even from SI on mma. But until you can show me where they said that what a fighter has done recently there is no reason for you to continue on the subject.



> AS you may or may not be aware, in boxing the term knockout includes referee stoppages, tko's, and ko's. That is why it is said that Floyd Mayweather's record is 39 wins with no losses and 25 wins coming by way of knockout. The point was that Mayweather has stopping power. He was the only man to stop Hatton. He was one of only two men to stop Brussles, Chavez, Corrales, and Manfredy. Obviously Floyd is not the type of fighter with one punch knockout strength. Few Welterweights are. Cotto, Margarito, and Williams depend also on wearing down the other fighter to an eventual stoppage. I don't see why Floyd couldn't fight Magarito in the same way he fought Gatti. The obvious difference between Margarito and Castillo is that Castillo does have one punch ko power. IMO Castillo, in his prime,was a more punishing puncher and therefore was able to slow Mayweather more.


The reason they say it is because it looks better to the public to say knockout. Would they really be interested if the introduced Floyd like, he has 39 wins and 3 KO's? Plus if they had to go into more detail about how fights finished the intros would be even longer (notice why they don't say how they lost). And going by the rules it is wrong to even intro them like this since KO's and TKO's are different.

Anyways, lets look at the rules shall we



> A knockout occurs when an boxer is knocked down by his opponent, falls through the ropes and cannot get back into the ring and on his feet by the count of 20, or otherwise is down, and the referee reaches the count of ten before the boxer is back on his feet in the ring. *A knockout ends the bout, resulting in a KO win for the boxer's opponent.*





> A technical knockout occurs when a bout is ended, or stopped, *short of a decision or knockout*


To recap, KO's and TKO's not the same thing.

So a TKO occurs before a knockout. All of the fights you listed were counted as TKO's not *knockouts* as you said.

Plus, to say that Mayweather "knocked them" out is funny since Mayweather only has 3 career KO's (the ones I listed) and you listed 4 fighters he "knocked out". If you had said he stopped them you would be right but to say he knocked them out is wrong per the rules.

Fact is, you said he knocked them out, by rule he did not.

By the way, how do you go about knocking someone out between rounds when they are on the stool?

Paul Williams just TKO'ed Kolle, a fighter who hadn't been stopped before and he did this at 160 and Williams power doesn't increase any that much at 160 then from 154. He doesn't have to rely on wearing opponents down.

Now Cotto and Margarito do but they could wear down Floyd with the way they fight. To slow a fighter down like Floyd you go to the body and Cotto punishes you there.

Floyd could fight Antonio like he did Gatti but Gatti and Antonio are not the same fighter. He would have to fight Antonio like he did Ndou since I think think those two fights would be similiar.



> Obviously everyone does not lose, because Floyd retired at 39-0. Also it is not the fact that Williams lost that is important. It's who he lost two. God love Carlos Quinta, but he's not exactly a top tier fighter. If he could develop a strategy to beat Williams, you don't think Mayweather could have come up with one much easier? Maybe we should discuss this further in the boxing forum, since this is off topic. It's up to you.


Your selective reading is showing again. I said "Almost everyone loses".

I blame that Quintana (at least spell the dudes name right) loss on overconfidence. Williams was coming off the huge win over Margarito. And it wasn't like he got stopped, that same gameplan won't work again, I would be willing to bet on that, since he did stop Carlos in the next fight.



> You like the word fallacy. Whenever you use the word everyone when not dealing with scientific fact will almost always lead to fallacy.


Since you like definitions so much.



> Fallacy
> 
> 1 a: obsolete : guile, trickery b: deceptive appearance : deception
> 2 a: *a false or mistaken idea* <popular fallacies> b: erroneous character :erroneousness 3: an often plausible argument using false or invalid inference


http://mw1.m-w.com/dictionary/fallacy


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MLS said:


> So, what you are saying is that punch accuracy, kick accuracy, sub attempts, successful submissions and so on can't be looked at from a statistical point of view (those are skills by the way which can be used to compare fighters)? It's funny because they kept using these statistics to show why Anderson was the most accurate (the best) striker in UFC history.



Which in other sports when you talk about stats you are talking about what happened in the game. Take football for instance, when you look up stats you see, pts/g, yards/g, total amount of passing yards, total amount of rushing yards, TOP, 3rd down percentage, 4th down percentage, ect. Seems like these stats are comparable to what happens in a fight, punch accuracy, kick accuracy, sub attempts, successful submissions and so on.


Nice try but you said based only on skill. How would they get these statistics, from fights correct. But wait I thought you said fights didn't matter. It was bases solely on skill. I understand now that you get to pick which statistics are important.



MLS said:


> Also, show me in your quote where they say that what a fighter has done recently is a requirement because that is your argument and my argument does involve statistics, so show me otherwise or this is again a *fallacy* on your part, don't hide behind it prove it.
> 
> My quotes came from boxing websites and one was even from SI on mma. But until you can show me where they said that what a fighter has done recently there is no reason for you to continue on the subject.


I get it my posts have to not only disprove your points, but they also have to prove my point. As your post's only purpose is to disprove mine. Got it.

Well you want it here it is from Ring Magazine 1998 (once again remember that ring magazine was one of the first publications to publish a p4p fighter list) :

"fighters are ranked according to their abilities, accomplishments, and RECENT wins and losses"

Did that hurt? Now that I've debunked your basis, I guess we have no more to talk about. I know you'll probably say, "Well it says nothing about the quality of fighters", or some ridiculous argument of something you know is implied. Honestly I'm tired of going down into the basement to look through my old RING and KO magazines. 



The reason they say it is because it looks better to the public to say knockout. Would they really be interested if the introduced Floyd like, he has 39 wins and 3 KO's? Plus if they had to go into more detail about how fights finished the intros would be even longer (notice why they don't say how they lost). And going by the rules it is wrong to even intro them like this since KO's and TKO's are different.

To recap, KO's and TKO's not the same thing.

So a TKO occurs before a knockout. All of the fights you listed were counted as TKO's not *knockouts* as you said.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for explaining the rules of boxing to a Golden Glove champion. On that note, it's time to debunk something else you said that tko, rtds, and rscs are not referred to ask knockouts and those in boxing don't refer to them to knocking someone out. In my second amateur fight, I punished a guy to the body to point that he didn't get off the stool in the second round. The next day when I walked into the gym my trainer, Sam Colona, said "How does it feel to get your first knockout?" Obviously Sam Colona doesn't understand boxing or boxing terminology. All he has ever done in the sport is train Angel Manfredy, Andrew Golota, David Estrada, and Vaughn Bean. Then David Estrada, (someone who else who must clueless in the sport he's only a guy who fought Shane Mosley, Andre Berto, and Kermit Cintron) said, Yeah he knocked out the great white hope (as they called the guy I was fighting). Thanks for the boxing lesson though. 

I'm really getting tired of this debate. So if you're just going to attack my grammar, spelling, or try to twist some words or quotes that I said for you're own purposes instead of taking what they obviously mean, then I probably won't respond. You can have the last word, even if it's ridiculous, if it makes you feel better. If your plan was to exhaust me to the point of quitting than you win. Good for you. 

To close I think Anderson Silva is the best p4p fighter in the world. If you all don't know why than you obviously haven't read the forum. I don't think anyone is stupid or doesn't know mma if you think Fedor is. I just disagree. Forums are supposed to be places of debate, but respect can be used in a debate. Maybe some, who have terrible negative reps probably for that very reason, should think about that. As a side note some may notice that if you respectfully disagree with me I give you positive rep. In my mind negative rep is reserved for those who are disrespectful.

IMO Anderson is #1 preach Dana:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ4nUioG9Nc


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Nice try but you said based only on skill. How would they get these statistics, from fights correct. But wait I thought you said fights didn't matter. It was bases solely on skill. I understand now that you get to pick which statistics are important.


The lack of comprehension you have shown is quite remarkable. Which your whole deal about how skills couldn't be proved by statistics you are now conceding even though you said "Since skills in no way can be measured numerically, they cannot be statistics. It was nice attempt at save, but I hope you not unintelligent enough to think that something that is subjective can be measured statistically." So you seemingly questioned my intelligence for saying that stats can prove skills and now you are conceding this fact, so are you questioning your own intelligence? 

*Show me where I, explicitly me not anyone else, said fights don't matter. *
*
You keep saying that top 10 wins are what is important to rank a fighter for P4P and none of your arguments have been backed up by your links. This one just says recent wins, which Fedor's recent wins is why you say you don't rank him number 1.*




rockybalboa25 said:


> *He has done more recently than Fedor has.*





rockybalboa25 said:


> Y*eah because Fedor has beaten so many ranked fighters in recent years? Wait a minute Sylvia was his first ranked heavyweight in three years.
> The fact that Fedor often fights large sized bums shouldn't propel him to a higher status. Silva is the p4p champ now. Fedor was the p4p champ in 2005.*





rockybalboa25 said:


> I* would say the guy who is fighting the best competition now, like Silva. Not the guy who has been dodging top competition for years, like Fedor.*





rockybalboa25 said:


> O*ne win over #5 guy doesn't shoot you to the top of the p4p rankings, when you've been fighting non-heavyweights and non-contenders for three years*





rockybalboa25 said:


> *Is it not a fact that Fedor hasn't beaten as many top fighters as Silva recently? *Is it not a fact that Silva has won more fights recently?I*s it not a fact that Fedor has not fought top competition as of the last three years?*





> I get it my posts have to not only disprove your points, but they also have to prove my point. As your post's only purpose is to disprove mine. Got it.
> 
> Well you want it here it is from Ring Magazine 1998 (once again remember that ring magazine was one of the first publications to publish a p4p fighter list) :
> 
> ...



Show me where as you have argued that top 10 wins are what is important because this quote that you bring up actually *hurts* your argument because it just says recent wins and yet you said Fedor can't be number one because of a lack of top 10 wins and Ring says just recent wins.



> Thank you for explaining the rules of boxing to a Golden Glove champion. On that note, it's time to debunk something else you said that tko, rtds, and rscs are not referred to ask knockouts and those in boxing don't refer to them to knocking someone out. In my second amateur fight, I punished a guy to the body to point that he didn't get off the stool in the second round. The next day when I walked into the gym my trainer, Sam Colona, said "How does it feel to get your first knockout?" Obviously Sam Colona doesn't understand boxing or boxing terminology. All he has ever done in the sport is train Angel Manfredy, Andrew Golota, David Estrada, and Vaughn Bean. Then David Estrada, (someone who else who must clueless in the sport he's only a guy who fought Shane Mosley, Andre Berto, and Kermit Cintron) said, Yeah he knocked out the great white hope (as they called the guy I was fighting). Thanks for the boxing lesson though.


This is funny. So what you are saying is that the rules are wrong.



> I'm really getting tired of this debate. So if you're just going to attack my grammar, spelling, or try to twist some words or quotes that I said for you're own purposes instead of taking what they obviously mean, then I probably won't respond. You can have the last word, even if it's ridiculous, if it makes you feel better. If your plan was to exhaust me to the point of quitting than you win. Good for you.


What you posted (twice) was that Williams had fought and lost to a guy named Carlos Quinta. Williams has never lost nor has he fought a guy with that name.



> To close I think Anderson Silva is the best p4p fighter in the world. If you all don't know why than you obviously haven't read the forum. I don't think anyone is stupid or doesn't know mma if you think Fedor is. I just disagree. Forums are supposed to be places of debate, but respect can be used in a debate. Maybe some, who have terrible negative reps probably for that very reason, should think about that. As a side note some may notice that if you respectfully disagree with me I give you positive rep. In my mind negative rep is reserved for those who are disrespectful.


You actually neg repped me for closing a thread of yours that easily could have been posted in another thread and for being disrespectful. was it not you that said I sucked?



rockybalboa25 said:


> MLS SUCKS!!!! I can type things in a quotation box too.





> If your plan was to exhaust me to the point of quitting than you win. Good for you.


Haha, or you are leaving because your whole argument throughout this thread has been torn apart.

I'll give anyone who reads this 100k vbookie points to go through and post/pm what all I proved rocky was wrong on and what he proved me wrong on.

So, I hope that the big bold letters help you understand things better and is it that hard to quote?


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## Jundon! (Sep 10, 2008)

Anderson has fought more Top 10 opponents in the last two years, so he is the best P4P fighter IMO. Fedor has only fought Sylvia.

In a fight I'd say Standing = Anderson | Ground = Fedor.


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## Mjr (Apr 22, 2007)

Jundon! said:


> Anderson has fought more Top 10 opponents in the last two years, so he is the best P4P fighter IMO. Fedor has only fought Sylvia.
> 
> In a fight I'd say Standing = Anderson | Ground = Fedor.


Well fedor would take down anderson easily,
so fedor wins by that logic?


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