# How important is weight class??



## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

I've wondered how champs from one weight division would fare in the class above them. Could they 
a. *contend* for the title? ie beat the champ:
b. not be a contender could *compete* with top 10;
c. would be *owned* by all top 10 in higher weight class. 

My take:
Edgar 155: owned
GSP: compete, maybe contend
A Silva: compete, maybe contend
Rua: owned


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

It completely depends on the fighter. Some guys are talented enough to win a title at a higher weight class. BJ Penn was champion at WW and Couture was champ at HW. 
Having said that, each weight class really does make a huge difference. As a former wrestler i can tell you that weight classes matter and there's a reason why people put themselves through hell to cut weight: it gives a significant competitive advantage.


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## astrallite (Mar 14, 2010)

Chael Sonnen cuts weight from 220 to make 185. Fedor fights at 230. Last time I checked Fedor outwrestles pretty much everyone.

How important is weight class you say? HMMM.

I find most of the people whining about weight class are trying to discredit GSP from fighting at MW, saying he'd only be mid-tier MW, saying he'd be tooled by guys like Hendo. I vaguely remember a 183lb Shields (who is a smaller man than GSP, as GSP walks around at 195) having his way with Hendo, who cuts from 200.

You have guys like Randy, at all 217lbs of him, taking down 280lb Brock Lesnar will stuffing all of Brocks takedowns.

When you fight, you are fighting a person, not some mysterious entity called "weight class." In every weight class there are guys who barely make weight and guys who cut 40lbs, and you can find equally successful fighters at both ends of the spectrum.


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## Blitzz (Apr 13, 2009)

astrallite said:


> You have guys like Randy, at all 217lbs of him, taking down 280lb Brock Lesnar will stuffing all his takedowns.





I think the only champion in the UFC right now that could compete at both weight classes is GSP. Edgar really does not have a chance at defeating GSP or Aldo, and in the same respect we already witnessed BJ get dismantled by GSP. I think Silva could compete at LHW, but the division is so stacked he would just be another stop in the path of the title. Finally HW, no way in hell is Lesnar cutting to 205 and I do not see any of the champs or contenders of any division in the UFC being competitive against him in a fight.

Weight classes are important. They match up fighters of similar size so that skill is more important. Fighters like AJ and Alves try and take advantage and make massive cuts, but are so drained they are defeated by much smaller and skilled fighters.


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## astrallite (Mar 14, 2010)

Blitzz said:


>


Why are you confused? Randy and Brock fought and Randy outwrestled Brock. The difference between the two is equivalent to 4 weight classes.


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## Can.Opener (Apr 8, 2009)

It takes amazing athletes to compete at highter weightclasses.
Boxers like Pacquiao, Fenech, Armstrong, Hearns, Duran... these are guys that come along every decade or so.

Realistically I think only GSP and Anderson fall into this category. Both would easily be top 5 in the higher weight class and would have a legitimate shot at the title.

I think both also have the capacity to put the weight on correctly unlike BJ at WW.

And as far as Rua fighting at HW I agree, there is just no chance. 50 pounds plus is just too much to give up.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

If u want to know how important weight class is look at bj penn. BJ penn in his own weight class = Greatest....outside his weight class he struggles. But there are LHW who i think can contend. I don't see GSP owning anyone above 205 but i can see anderson,machida,rampage,evans, and rua beating some or most HW.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

astrallite said:


> Why are you confused? Randy and Brock fought and Randy outwrestled Brock. The difference between the two is equivalent to 4 weight classes.


Randy outwrestled Brock so bad that Brock had Randy in defensive positions during the whole fight and not being able to execute a gameplan. Brock landed big knees from the clinch every time Randy tried to press him against the cage and when Randy had him against the cage he easily reversed him and Randy ended up against the cage. If you call takedown defense "outwrestling" someone then Randy outwrestled Brock, but fact is Brock took Randy down and mounted him while Brock had no trouble getting up after being reversed.


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## gosuu (Sep 23, 2007)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Randy outwrestled Brock so bad that Brock had Randy in defensive positions during the whole fight and not being able to execute a gameplan. Brock landed big knees from the clinch every time Randy tried to press him against the cage and when Randy had him against the cage he easily reversed him and Randy ended up against the cage. If you call takedown defense "outwrestling" someone then Randy outwrestled Brock, but fact is Brock took Randy down and mounted him while Brock had no trouble getting up after being reversed.


Randy out greco'd Brock by a mile. Brock won the fight and also dominated majority of the positions. But given that he was the equivalent of 2 weight classes higher, actually more like 3 on fight night (maybe even 4, assuming of course Randy came in at around 235 which is actually really heavy for him), that fact that Randy could actually pin him against the cage really surprised me. I think you need to re-watch the fight, I will also because I'm not sure my memory is serving me right. Also, the striking looked like it was an even fight for the most part. The entire time it just felt like Randy was playing with fire though because of the fact Brock has so much power. He looks stiff and his punches look robotic but the dude packs a punch, to say the least. Anyway, I'm going to watch the fight again. But I expected Brock to dominate Randy that fight and I don't think he did. He won, don't get me wrong, but I feel Randy put up a good fight all things considered.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Without broken ribs, I think Silva would have destroyed Chuck, Randy, Tito, Rashad, Forrest and Rampage. He's also a better striker than Rua. 

Before Maia, when asked if he could move to 170 after this fight (with an obvious GSP implication), his answer was yes. Greatest ever. You know if Dana White was Anderson, you next fight is going to be against GSP right now, I guarantee you he would be ready for that fight. Unfortunately, it's not in the best interest of making money for the UFC to have GSP get beat up.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Randy outwrestled Brock so bad that Brock had Randy in defensive positions during the whole fight and not being able to execute a gameplan. Brock landed big knees from the clinch every time Randy tried to press him against the cage and when Randy had him against the cage he easily reversed him and Randy ended up against the cage. If you call takedown defense "outwrestling" someone then Randy outwrestled Brock, but fact is Brock took Randy down and mounted him while Brock had no trouble getting up after being reversed.


Go watch that fight again, Brock got plenty of takedowns, Randy just slipped out. Brock even outstruck him in the 1st round. In round 2 Brock was gassed, Randy landed some strikes in a clinch, went for a single leg takedown but Brock hopped around as Randy twisted and put his body into it, Brock got his foot back. Randy landed a shot, then wanted to something outside the clinch. Then he tried to trade and got KNFO.

Though...Brock isn't not going to beat Carwin again if they meet next summer or so. Hope it happens.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

MrObjective said:


> Go watch that fight again, Brock got plenty of takedowns, Randy just slipped out. Brock even outstruck him in the 1st round. In round 2 Brock was gassed, Randy landed some strikes in a clinch, went for a single leg takedown but Brock hopped around as Randy twisted and put his body into it, Brock got his foot back. Randy landed a shot, then wanted to something outside the clinch. Then he tried to trade and got KNFO.
> 
> Brock isn not going to beat Carwin again if they meet next summer or so. Hope it happens.


I think we agree... don't we? :confused02:


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> I think we agree... don't we? :confused02:


Ya I guess, except for Randy demonstrating takedown defense. He got taken down, picked up. He slipped out pretty quick though, except Round 2 and Brock did quick bit of GnP action. Randy slipped out of that too, but proceeded to get KNFO pretty soon after.

Brock was too big and fast and handily out wrestled Randy.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

MrObjective said:


> Ya I guess, except for Randy demonstrating takedown defense. He got taken down, picked up. He slipped out pretty quick though, except Round 2 and Brock did quick bit of GnP action. Randy slipped out of that too, but proceeded to get KNFO pretty soon after.
> 
> Brock was too big and fast and handily out wrestled Randy.


Ah, now I catch your drift. :thumbsup:

Yes, he did get taken down, but if I remember correctly he stuffed most of Brocks takedown attempts. In the end he still got outwrestled though.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Interesting thread idea. I was thinking about this some time ago.
Honestly, i think the only fighter that has real chances of becoming a great at a higher weight class is St. Pierre.
I think he definitely can move up to MW, but the thing is, i don't think he will do it. He wants to dominate the WW division for some time to come imo.
Anderson Silva could compete at LHW, maybe even contend, but a smart, good wrestler would squezze a UD against him. Actually i give Sonnen better chances at LHW than Silva. If he could take down his opponents and do the same things he did to Silva, he would win. The LHW division doesn't have that many talented grapplers, at least not the kind that would submit from the back.
And as far as fighters from the LHW and LW division: i give them no chance of doing great things at the superior weight class. BJ at WW maybe.
Or Jon Jone at HW in 2-3 years, after he puts some more weight on his structure. I think Jones will eventually end up at HW and there is a big chance imo that he will one day hold the HW title.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Excellent thread and I agree with your opinions on the 4 current champs. 

I've always thought people were FAR too obsessed with weight in North American MMA to be honest, I think it's an American thing. 

I mean some dude loses a fight, and everyone's like "oh cut weight and be a champ in that class!" ... um yeah it doesn't work like that. Being weaker and skinnier doesn't make you more talented or give you this massive advantage over the other skinner guys, you'll probably be at the EXACT point in the lower weight class that you were in the upper weight. Just ask Diego, Irvin, Couture, Reljic and so many more. I mean what you either cut muscle and lose your strength advantage to be about the same strength as the other guys in your class, or get drained in the steam room and be a lot more tired.

For the most part, I think a talented fighter will be around the same place contention wise in a weight class above or below. The only exception IMO is heavyweight which has some massive guys now and it takes a Fedor to really pull off the weight difference there.


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## AceCombat (Mar 6, 2007)

> Chael Sonnen cuts weight from 220 to make 185. Fedor fights at 230. Last time I checked Fedor outwrestles pretty much everyone.


Fedor, Despite being my number 1 HW atm, hasn't had much experience in fighting high calibre wrestlers, 'yah he fought Coleman' - I'm talking world class. I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that Chael or Cain can control him (not necessarily defeat obviously).

Fedor did take down Matt Linland but Matt wrestled at 76 kg!! 

My point is, weight classes definately matter.


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

Weight class is a huge deal. Some guys are big for their weight class and can therefore legitimately get up to a higher weight class (like Anderson) without being small, but most of the time that's not the case.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

MrObjective said:


> Go watch that fight again, Brock got plenty of takedowns, Randy just slipped out. Brock even outstruck him in the 1st round. In round 2 Brock was gassed, Randy landed some strikes in a clinch, went for a single leg takedown but Brock hopped around as Randy twisted and put his body into it, Brock got his foot back. Randy landed a shot, then wanted to something outside the clinch. Then he tried to trade and got KNFO.
> 
> Though...Brock isn't not going to beat Carwin again if they meet next summer or so. Hope it happens.





MrObjective said:


> Ya I guess, except for Randy demonstrating takedown defense. He got taken down, picked up. He slipped out pretty quick though, except Round 2 and Brock did quick bit of GnP action. Randy slipped out of that too, but proceeded to get KNFO pretty soon after.
> 
> Brock was too big and fast and handily out wrestled Randy.





Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Ah, now I catch your drift. :thumbsup:
> 
> Yes, he did get taken down, but if I remember correctly he stuffed most of Brocks takedown attempts. In the end he still got outwrestled though.





astrallite said:


> Chael Sonnen cuts weight from 220 to make 185. Fedor fights at 230. Last time I checked Fedor outwrestles pretty much everyone.
> 
> How important is weight class you say? HMMM.
> 
> ...





astrallite said:


> Why are you confused? Randy and Brock fought and Randy outwrestled Brock. The difference between the two is equivalent to 4 weight classes.





Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Randy outwrestled Brock so bad that Brock had Randy in defensive positions during the whole fight and not being able to execute a gameplan. Brock landed big knees from the clinch every time Randy tried to press him against the cage and when Randy had him against the cage he easily reversed him and Randy ended up against the cage. If you call takedown defense "outwrestling" someone then Randy outwrestled Brock, but fact is Brock took Randy down and mounted him while Brock had no trouble getting up after being reversed.





gosuu said:


> Randy out greco'd Brock by a mile. Brock won the fight and also dominated majority of the positions. But given that he was the equivalent of 2 weight classes higher, actually more like 3 on fight night (maybe even 4, assuming of course Randy came in at around 235 which is actually really heavy for him), that fact that Randy could actually pin him against the cage really surprised me. I think you need to re-watch the fight, I will also because I'm not sure my memory is serving me right. Also, the striking looked like it was an even fight for the most part. The entire time it just felt like Randy was playing with fire though because of the fact Brock has so much power. He looks stiff and his punches look robotic but the dude packs a punch, to say the least. Anyway, I'm going to watch the fight again. But I expected Brock to dominate Randy that fight and I don't think he did. He won, don't get me wrong, but I feel Randy put up a good fight all things considered.


Having watched the fight again lastnight, i can clear alot of this up.


Randy managed to stuff *one* of Brocks takedowns.
Randy controlled alot of where the fight took place through his Greco-clinch, but he wasnt dominant in the clinch because Brock was landing big powerful knees that Couture was uncomfortable with.
Randy was simply trying to wear him out by leaning on him against the cage.
Randy never took Brock down, he reversed a takedown attempt and sucked Brocks legs away from the cage.
Brock instantly got back to his feet where Randy tried to take his back and failed.

Hope that covers it


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## Johnni G (Dec 2, 2009)

Ofc its harder to fight in a weightclass that doesn't fit you


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

The more skilled the fighters get the more weight classes matter. In the early UFC they hardly mattered at all because the skill differential between Royce and most of the clowns he fought was vast. Size didn't matter.

Now the skill differentials are much smaller and size matters. A LOT. As MMA continues to grow and the difference between good and great fighters continues to shrink weight classes will become even more important. 

I think GSP and BJ are pretty much equal skill wise but GSP crushed BJ and would every time if they fought again; not because he is more skilled, simply because he is 15 lbs bigger. 

Look at the Randy-Brock example again. Randy was more skilled than Brock when they fought at almost every facet of MMA but Brock beat him pretty easily. You can't give away a 10-20% weight differential and win consistently, just not happening in modern MMA.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

I think the answer is self evident, if size/weight didn't give you a advantage the fighters wouldn't go through the grueling processes of cutting weight. 

I think weight is more of a modifier than a actual attribute.

skill+weight/size = advantage 
Its a "more often than not" thing meaning for most fighters it ends up being a advantage. I think the question of how much of a advantage depends on what style of fighter you are for the most part.


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