# Rua V Jones = the Rua who fought Forrest



## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

What the hell was up with Rua? A Champion should not be completely gassed after 4 minutes, not in any sport.

He was completely shot and he looked fat, his back and lower sides had fat hanging off them.

It was obvious after 4 minutes that Rua was completely out of it, not hurt but just no energy left in his muscles and the rest was just a matter of when not if.

I'm just not sure how Jones is getting so much credit for this win. Sure it was impressive, but he was not beating a top Rua and it is unfortunate that Rua comes in after injuries like this, letting both himself and his fans down (and no, I am not a big Rua fan).


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## MMA-Matt (Mar 20, 2010)

After 4 minutes he was already dazed, looking like a drunk. The fight was pretty much over at that point, to me it looked like Jones just took his time in picking Rua apart instead of burning himself out as well ala Shane Carwin.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

MMA-Matt said:


> After 4 minutes he was already dazed, looking like a drunk. The fight was pretty much over at that point, to me it looked like Jones just took his time in picking Rua apart instead of burning himself out as well ala Shane Carwin.


Yes, Jones did the right thing in taking his time.

But Rua was not dazed from shots, he was dazed from no fitness. I've seen 10s of thousands of fights over my years watching MMA and boxing and you do not get rocked by a shot and then take a minute break and come out just as sloppy, particularly so early in a fight. Your brain recovers and you come out fresh. Or you are wobbly and fall over, but you still have a lot of power (why do you think they say in fighting sports, 'a wounded animal is most dangerous'?). It is because even when you are rocked, you can still summon power punching. Rua on the other hand, had absolutely nothing left in his shots and therefore obviously nothing left in the gas tank. This was the Rua from the Forrest fight. Sad and disappointing for Rua, good for Jones, but in no way shows what Jones would do to a healthy Rua nor what he will do to a Machida.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Rua just came off from KO'ing Lyoto Machida in the first minutes and said his in excellent shape. Enough of the excuses. How come Jones can't get that much credit? He came to the cage as the better man and handed an ass whooping, that's all the credit he needs.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Rauno said:


> Rua just came off from KO'ing Lyoto Machida in the first minutes and said his in excellent shape. Enough of the excuses. How come Jones can't get that much credit? He came to the cage as the better man and handed an ass whooping, that's all the credit he needs.


I thought he came off an operation like he did before Forrest.......

You honestly think that was the same Rua in there who fought Machida or who fought Forrest? The answer there is plain obvious to me.


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## pipe (Jun 15, 2008)

He didnt look fit at all. He looked like he did vs Griffin and Coleman (injured/ coming back of a injury) I think he can give Jones a better fight next time.


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## pltan75 (Mar 21, 2011)

Rauno said:


> Rua just came off from KO'ing Lyoto Machida in the first minutes and said his in excellent shape. Enough of the excuses. How come Jones can't get that much credit? He came to the cage as the better man and handed an ass whooping, that's all the credit he needs.


Rua had an operation after that fight , which has kept him out of action for close to a year. It's a well known fact and certainly not an excuse...you have no idea what you're talking about.



pipe said:


> He didnt look fit at all. He looked like he did vs Griffin and Coleman (injured/ coming back of a injury) I think he can give Jones a better fight next time.


Agreed his fitness was in the dumps, and I'm sure he can make for a better performance if there was a rematch. But I'd still expect Jones to win.


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## arkanoydz (Mar 15, 2010)

*wanna hear comments form Rua / his team*

I totally agree, he looked fat and totally gassed early into the first round. Jones is a beast, but Shogun in good condition would have atleast given him a good fight, *atleast* as good as what Bonnar gave him...

*that's why I'm dying to find a post-fight interview from Rua or anything from Eduardo or the rest of the team... anyone have any news in this regard?*

ps - Edgar was properly 'rocked' in rd 1 of his title defense against Maynard, yet he came back in full force after that - I believe Shogun has just as much heart and resistance as Edgar.


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## hadoq (Jan 6, 2011)

Rauno said:


> Rua just came off from KO'ing Lyoto Machida in the first minutes and said his in excellent shape. Enough of the excuses. How come Jones can't get that much credit? He came to the cage as the better man and handed an ass whooping, that's all the credit he needs.


there's no excuses to be said

coming to a fight and being prepared is part of the fight, it's the kind of things that makes the difference between losing and winning, just as much as technique, experience, heart, strength etc...

it's a whole, and being in shape is part of this whole. 

it's not like it was something out of his control. if you don't come prepared and lose because of it, it means that you weren't the better man.


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## enceledus (Jul 8, 2007)

I am definitely not making excuses for Shogun's loss. A loss is a loss. However, I DO NOT think it was a case of Shogun falling to the better man. I think the Shogun we saw was clearly not well conditioned for this fight. He looked totally zapped of energy after the first real exchange. 

Do I think the fight would have had a different outcome had he come in with better conditioning? Perhaps. I don't know that Shogun would have won the fight either way honestly. But, I do think that had Shogun come in looking a little more fit that we would have seen a better and closer fight.


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## hadoq (Jan 6, 2011)

of course we can tell a lot of "ifs"

Rua has no one else to blame than himself if he didn't show up prepared, and this is a good enough reason to lose.

truth is, if he didn't come prepared, he didn't deserve the belt.

do you ever see GSP or silva coming out of shape at a fight? This is, probably, what it takes to be and remain a champ, the daily grind

When you're a contender, you have your goal to work towards, so you're going for the daily grind, but once you are the champion, I'm pretty sure it's more mental than anything else, you have to convince yourself that you have to work even harder and keep improving, but without the belt as a goal, it's another level of motivation that is required.

They both respected the rules coming into the cage, one got the win, the other got regrets and "what ifs" to think about.

I really thought Rua would punish jones and put him back in place but I guess I was wrong because that night, his place was on top of the LHW division.

But now it comes down to how he'll manage being on top, Jones seems fairly weak mentally or "young" at best, I can pretty much see him get over his head with the belt, unless he's surrounded with people who'll make sure he keeps working.


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## mohammadmoofty (Mar 26, 2010)

i have no idea how you could think he wasn't hurt in the first round. he wasn't gassed, he got rocked and never recovered then continued to get the shit beaten out of him. no ones gonna look good after taking that.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

he was gassed after 1 minute before it got to the ground, he didnt come in condtioned good ata ll and he payed badly, and he didnt get koed by a million head shots but the hard body shots he ate by jones


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

I've watched the fight three times now and had some time to reflect on it and I still completely agree with the OP here.

That was not an any where near healthy Shogun in the octagon on Saturday, not even close. It looked like he was moving in slow motion throughout the entire fight. Sloppy, slow, weak, drained. 

People asking why he didint throw kicks. He was simply too exhausted to throw any kind of decent kick. He looked like shane carwin did in the 2nd round vs Brock after a few grappling exchanges on the ground.

This is Shogun we're talking about. Shogun just got handled much worse than Ryan Bader did, Ryan Bader!

Its clear as day that wasnt the same shogun we saw fight Machida or Chuck or any of his fights in Pride.

And it's all down to god damn knee injuries.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

I believe Rua's layoff had 15% - 25% to do with the turnout of the fight. The outcome would have been the same because JBJ was in the ZONE. Keep in mind I was pulling for Shogun and was quite gutted to see him lose in such a brutal fashion. Shogun has NEVER lost like that before and the same goes with Machida, Rashad, and even Chuck before em. So the trend continues...

I'm sure it would have been a LOT more competitive had Shogun been more active though. No matter how you look at it a year layoff and recuperating after surgery are factors. Shogun did look sluggish, but can you blame JBJ. 

That belt was given to em on a silver platter WITH the combination of hardwork, dedication, and luck. 

Funny how things work out in life. Question now is how will JBJ react to certain negativities that will occur in his life.

- new found fame
- new found wealth
- stardom with media chasing him and his family
- girls flinging themselves to em (sorry, but the black man's kryptonite is girls and that goes for most men including Limba...lolz! Don't believe me just think about Brittany Palmer in your bed vs your current gf or wife...hmmm what to do.)
- ghetto ass fools trying to become his best friend (past friends trying to cash in on their relationship, long lost relatives popping up out of the woodwork, basically leeches.) 
- mental pressure of defending the belt and really feeling that the whole world is watching him succeed or fail. 

At such a young age I hope he's ready for the come down cuz it will come inevitably whether it's one year or 20 years from now. 

Being grounded, religious, and humble is the difference between the ones who made it out unscathed and the ones who fell on hard times. 

Just look at Michael Vick, Tiger Woods, Vitor Belfort, Mike Tyson, Hatton, Marion Jones and a slew of others. 

Some were able to make it out after going through a long spiritual journey, but not without paying a hefty penalty.


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

hadoq said:


> there's no excuses to be said
> 
> coming to a fight and being prepared is part of the fight, it's the kind of things that makes the difference between losing and winning, just as much as technique, experience, heart, strength etc...
> 
> ...


I feel like this says it all. The guy knew to get in shape for the fight and he failed to do so. Whether it was due to injury or some other factor he did not prepare properly. If it was due to injury he should have taken more time off instead of coming out and getting embarassed.


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## Crester (Apr 5, 2009)

People need to stop making excuses for Shogun... you guys are making him look even worse. "Not In Shape" is not an excuse for losing a fight. In order to be a good fighter you need to show up in shape... look at GSP. He always keeps himself in good condition.

Shogun lost because he ran into a better fighter and he couldn't deal with the reach advantage. Look at Shogun's fight with Overeem for example. Even tho Shogun won, most of the action before that was all Overeem and Overeem was manhandling Shogun as well.

Just deal with it... Shogun lost. He'll be back and kicking ass. He just won't kick JBJ's ass. lol


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

hadoq said:


> of course we can tell a lot of "ifs"
> 
> *Rua has no one else to blame than himself if he didn't show up prepared, and this is a good enough reason to lose.*
> truth is, if he didn't come prepared, he didn't deserve the belt.
> ...


I like these points you mentioned. It is the truth. I think JBJ is a phenomenal fighter in the way he's handled himself. But we'll have to wait and see. 

Seriously, how crazy would it be if Rashad won. That would blow my mind because now we have a frickin ROUND ROBIN. Constant revolving door of champions. It's interesting to see how it unfolds within the next three years. BJ was the first to fall then Fedor. Now it's between GSP and Anderson Silva. Right now they are as dominant as can be.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Rashad must be even more depressed now, because he would have beaten Shogun as well pretty easily that night.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Crester said:


> People need to stop making excuses for Shogun... you guys are making him look even worse. "Not In Shape" is not an excuse for losing a fight. In order to be a good fighter you need to show up in shape... look at GSP. He always keeps himself in good condition.
> 
> Shogun lost because he ran into a better fighter and he couldn't deal with the reach advantage. Look at Shogun's fight with Overeem for example. Even tho Shogun won, most of the action before that was all Overeem and Overeem was manhandling Shogun as well.
> 
> Just deal with it... Shogun lost. He'll be back and kicking ass. He just won't kick JBJ's ass. lol


I'd like to see GSP or any top fighter deal with recurring serious knee injuries. Lets see how in shape he is then. Infact, we have cain velasquez who is currently out for a major injury and operation. If he comes back in awful shape and gets beaten down by Brock or JDS are you going to blame him for being in bad shape too.

Ryan Bader would have beat Shogun last night.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> I'd like to see GSP or any top fighter deal with recurring serious knee injuries. Lets see how in shape he is then. Infact, we have cain velasquez who is currently out for a major injury and operation. If he comes back in awful shape and gets beaten down by Brock or JDS are you going to blame him for being in bad shape too.
> 
> *Ryan Bader would have beat Shogun last night.*


:thumbsup:

Even Brandon Vera would have beaten him! Probably every top 30 LHW in the UFC as well.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

People have to appreciate ring rust and the impact it can have on the human body. You can train, and train, and train, but there's nothing quite like being in the Octagon, pressed full-on by another behemoth. Rua isn't a slouch... I truly believe he takes fighting very seriously. I just think that his UFC career has been so topsy turvy that he really hasn't been able to find his rhythm and keep it. He comes in riddled with injuries, has his corrective surgeries, begins to find his footing with Chuck, comes full circle with Machida, and then loses it all again to yet another injury. And not a minor one, either. The poor guy really cannot catch a break in that regard. 

That said, and I do give Jon Jones all the respect in the world for his performance and accomplishment... it was quite clear that the Shogun who fought him was not the same man who decimated Machida (twice in my opinion). I further believe that Shogun will bounce back, and barring any further injuries, will achieve top form once more. Shogun vs. Jones II by 2012. I'd be far more impressed with Jones if he could defeat a game Shogun Rua, though again, I have to give the man his due regardless.


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## TViddy (Dec 23, 2008)

All you Shogun nuthuggers need to STFU. Shogun himself said in his interview with Ariel that he felt 100% and that he has been training since October. Give JBJ the props he deserves. No excuses should be given no matter the outcome of an MMA fight. Look at the first BJ Penn vs Frankie Edgar fight. Everyone said BJ didnt look the same and that he looked sick and out of it. What happened in the 2nd fight guys??? He got dominated even worse!


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

People need to STFU using the term "nuthuggers"


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

TViddy said:


> All you Shogun nuthuggers need to STFU. Shogun himself said in his interview with Ariel that he felt 100% and that he has been training since October. Give JBJ the props he deserves. No excuses should be given no matter the outcome of an MMA fight. Look at the first BJ Penn vs Frankie Edgar fight. Everyone said BJ didnt look the same and that he looked sick and out of it. What happened in the 2nd fight guys??? He got dominated even worse!


Yes, because, you know, Shogun has always been the type to make excuses. And BJ wasn't coming off a year long layoff from the Octagon, so that would be a silly comparison to make. I am far from a 'nut-hugger' my friend... I just have the ability to think logically and play devil's advocate. I gave Jones his respect because he's earned it, but anyone who doesn't think that ring rust and injuries play a part in a man's performance, especially when the difference in Shogun's fights are documented and remarkably apparent, needs himself to shut the **** up.

You have a good day now, sport.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

Everyone knows ring rust is a real issue. Everyone knows Shogun faced yet more surgery. For anyone to definitively say he was 100% is a bit dim.

I'm a Shogun fan and always will be, I have no problems saying Jones has the advantage regardless of Shogun's condition because of his wrestling and top game, but it's pretty obvious that Shogun was not in top condition on Saturday and would put on a much better performance if he didn't gas in the 1st.

Jones' next couple of fights will help determine what Shogun turned up because based on what he did to Shogun, he'll have no problems with any of the top LHWs.


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## TViddy (Dec 23, 2008)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Yes, because, you know, Shogun has always been the type to make excuses. And BJ wasn't coming off a year long layoff from the Octagon, so that would be a silly comparison to make. I am far from a 'nut-hugger' my friend... I just have the ability to think logically and play devil's advocate. I gave Jones his respect because he's earned it, but anyone who doesn't think that ring rust and injuries play a part in a man's performance, especially when the difference in Shogun's fights are documented and remarkably apparent, needs himself to shut the **** up.
> 
> You have a good day now, sport.


No need to get your panties in a bunch guy. LoL. Just know that your man crush Shogun got his ass handed to. No need for you to shed more tears over this thread. We all know you cried yourself to sleep on Saturday night.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

Well I think there is some truth to this but to be honest I was never realy impressed with the shogun in the ufc any way. I mean ok he koed chuck who was past his prime after suffering losses to KJ and rampage. Then he fought mark Coleman who is way past his prime and it took nearly all 3 rounds to win and we all saw what rand did to him. His fight with machida was impressive but machida has some major holes in his game (stance open for leg kicks) that once exploited pulls him out of his game and comfort zone leaving him open for a ko. Also when you think about it machida is abou to be on the chopping block if he loses his next fight against Randy. 

So in my opinion jones would have won no mater what shogun showed up just maybe not as impressively.


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## thrshr01 (Dec 30, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> *I'd like to see GSP or any top fighter deal with recurring serious knee injuries.* Lets see how in shape he is then. Infact, we have cain velasquez who is currently out for a major injury and operation. If he comes back in awful shape and gets beaten down by Brock or JDS are you going to blame him for being in bad shape too.
> 
> Ryan Bader would have beat Shogun last night.


May not have been a recurring knee injury but GSP came back from a year layoff recovering from a groin injury and defended his belt. 

I'm a Shogun fan, always has been and always will be, but let's just admit it and give credit where credit is deserved. Bones was the better fighter. People are asking why Shogun didn't throw any of his kicks in the first round...well let's see, he spent the majority of the 1st on his back getting pounded on. Shogun took damage standing and on the ground, that'll take the energy out of anyone not named Frankie Edgar.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

thrshr01 said:


> May not have been a recurring knee injury but GSP came back from a year layoff recovering from a groin injury and defended his belt.
> 
> I'm a Shogun fan, always has been and always will be, but let's just admit it and give credit where credit is deserved. Bones was the better fighter. People are asking why Shogun didn't throw any of his kicks in the first round...well let's see, he spent the majority of the 1st on his back getting pounded on. Shogun took damage standing and on the ground, that'll take the energy out of anyone not named Frankie Edgar.


Shogun came off a hand injury and a long lay off between Machida fights, he KO'd him in the first round.....

GSP's groin injury isnt comparable to Shoguns knee injuries, especially given the fact that gsp injured it early in the Alves fight and still dominated him.

Getting hit a few times doesnt suddenly put you on the brink of exhaustion. You point out frankie edgar, there are plenty of fightersw ho have been hit and hurt early and still had the stamina to bounce back, shogun actually being one of them. Carwin vs Lesnar is another example. Shogun vs lil nog and shogun vs alistair overeem.

Shoguns knee and conditioning had quite a lot to do with the out come of this fight.


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

TViddy said:


> No need to get your panties in a bunch guy. LoL. Just know that your man crush Shogun got his ass handed to. No need for you to shed more tears over this thread. We all know you cried yourself to sleep on Saturday night.


Wow... going full douche early in your stay here aren't you? The others are having an intelligent discussion about Shogun's performance - while still admitting JBJ put on a hell of a performance - and you show up telling the "nuthuggers" to STFU & saying that they went to sleep crying because their man crush got beaten. Have you ever thought about making an intelligent post or is being an ass your main goal here? 

As for the actual topic. Shogun did come in not fully recovered. It was plain to see. In top form he's a beast but his knees give him a lot of problems. Almost any UFC LHW would have beaten him Saturday night but Jones did put on a great performance and may well have earned the win anyway.

That being said I still really hate Jon Jones. His fake humble routine mixed with his rampant douchebag statements and actions make me really want to see him get ktfoed.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

deadmanshand said:


> Wow... going full douche early in your stay here aren't you? The others are having an intelligent discussion about Shogun's performance - while still admitting JBJ put on a hell of a performance - and you show up telling the "nuthuggers" to STFU & saying that they went to sleep crying because their man crush got beaten. Have you ever thought about making an intelligent post or is being an ass your main goal here?
> 
> As for the actual topic. Shogun did come in not fully recovered. It was plain to see. In top form he's a beast but his knees give him a lot of problems. Almost any UFC LHW would have beaten him Saturday night but Jones did put on a great performance and may well have earned the win anyway.
> 
> That being said I still really hate Jon Jones. His fake humble routine mixed with his rampant douchebag statements and actions make me really want to see him get ktfoed.


Actually they're not having an intelligent discussion and giving Jones credit. It's about as delusional as a scientologist meeting. Some choice recaps:



> I am definitely not making excuses for Shogun's loss. However, I DO NOT think it was a case of Shogun falling to the better man.


Talk about a 2 sentence contradiction. 



> Rashad must be even more depressed now, because he would have beaten Shogun as well pretty easily that night.


Where was all this apprehension on his knee surgery pre-fight? Nowhere. Shogun was gonna wreck this kid. Shogun is the greatest LHW of all time. Anderson vs Shogun would be an even fight. Jones ain't ready. Jones will need to learn from his ass-whooping and move on. 

It still cracks me up the denial mechanisms people have.

If he's had consistency problems for more than half his UFC fights, perhaps people were right to doubt him. But no, you were insane if you questioned that earlier. Now it's the "acceptable" explanation.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

people need to stop thinking UFC fighters are characters in a stree fighter video game and always come in a fight in optimum health. These men are human beings, and anything is a possibility.

I'm not going to make excuses for shogun, and I don't think anyone else is trying to. Shogun got hurt badly by the kick to the face and knee to the body at the 3:00 mark of RD 1 no doubt. But before that the man had no movement and did not look like the shogun that fought Lidell and Machida. He looked like the shogun that fought Griffen and Coleman.

And anyone going "Oh, but Shogun said he was healthy" Of course he said he was healthy, don't be a fool. How many times have we seen fighters fight with staph infections or body injuries that they did not let on? Now I look at this fight the same as a fighter losing and saying he had staph.

You step into the octagon on your own accord, and if you are not 100% healthy and still enter knowing the risks involved then you have no excuses. Buy the ticket, take the ride. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss Rua's health after the fact.

Jon Jones went in there and did his thing and impressed me for one. Butyou'd be a fool not to take into account real human circumstances. Its like Machida vs Rampage. Machida IMO would win that fight most of the time, but had some KO demons to expell hence it was the best time to fight and beat Machida. 

these fighters are human, and if you don't see the inherent flaws in humans fighting in top competition. You're just ignorant my friend.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Actually they're not having an intelligent discussion and giving Jones credit. It's about as delusional as a scientologist meeting. Some choice recaps:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure everyone had their doubts about Shoguns knee prior to the fight. I dont remember any one being flamed for questioning shoguns knees. It was certainly lingering in the back of my mind the entire time. I guess shoguns confidence and calmness reassured me though.




























Just for acting like a pleb before and after the fight.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

true McKeever, one of the unknowns going into this fight, and no one would deny that was how would Rua come back after knee surgery.

Kind of funny how that is totally out of the question all of the sudden.


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## JonCR96Z (Sep 16, 2009)

This is why I think all of you Shogun nuthuggers are delusional. All you do is yack about how good he was in Pride but always forget that he has had multiple knee sugerys until he loses. Then it's excuse after excuse. 

And having knee injuries probably effects someone like Shogun more than most since his kicks have always been his biggest weapons. 

Would Shogun of Pride beat JBJ today. Maybe but that doesn't matter now.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> I'm pretty sure everyone had their doubts about Shoguns knee prior to the fight. I dont remember any one being flamed for questioning shoguns knees. It was certainly lingering in the back of my mind the entire time. I guess shoguns confidence and calmness reassured me though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At least I don't go around claiming Chuck was on his period that night. He lost. Badly. It happens. Rampage was always a bad style for him, and Chuck is only human. 

Can the Shogun losers support group try that now please?


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> At least I don't go around claiming Chuck was on his period that night. He lost. It happens. Rampage was always a bad style for him, and Chuck is only human.
> 
> Can the Shogun losers support group try that now please?


Well, the difference is Chucky didnt completely gas himself out and didnt look exhausted after a couple of minutes, so you would have no claims to make that Chuck wasnt in shape. He looked just like the usual chuck liddell, except he lost to a more dangerous striker.

Rua didn't look like himself. He was exhausted after about 2 minutes of fighting. He looked slow, drained and weak. None of those things apply to chucks fight with rampage.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Shogun and his wife just had a kid as well while he was home resting his knee. I wonder if that had anything to do with it.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

JBJ was very impressive and no doubt deserved that victory, i think even if they have a rematch against a 100% shogun JBJ would probably beat him since he is getting better and better so fast

last nights JBJ would kill the JBJ that faced bader, his striking is getting a lot better with every fight, still needs a lot of work, but he was very impressive against shogun

but its clear as day that shogun wasnt 100%, right from the start he seemed much slower, i even said this before JBJ took him down to my friend, that shoguns punches were slow and he didnt look good

then JBJ took him down and really made shogun work, wich gassed him faster, JBJ did an awesome job, but no doubt that shogun wasnt 100%

i still think that a 100% shogun, the one that faced machida, would put up a better fight against JBJ, and could catch him with a good strike and KO him

but i still think that JBJ really is better than shogun now, he really is too young for him...his speed was just scary and shogun cant keep up with the wrestling

JBJs sub defense improved also, every time shogun was going to attempt something JBJ corrected his body well

thoguh every1 said before the fight, ''if shogun is healthy, this fight will another story''

i really thought shogun would expose JBJs striking but JBJ really is learning fast how to use his reach, i didnt expect that, but its obvious shogun wasnt 100% and i think in a rematch he could give JBJ more problems

also this fight really showed that JBJ really does need to work on his cardio, it always had a question mark but this really proved that JBJ does explode in his fights, but it comes with a price

he was very tired in the 2nd round and 3rd also, i really doubt he could have kept the pace for the 4th and 5th

maybe rashad can exploit that weakness

but this truly is another phenom, not just a fluke, im not really a fan of JBJ as a person, but i love his fights, so as i said before, if he beat shogun i would be on his wagon, so i am...JBJ is the future no doubt

but we are still far from the JBJ era...he still has many tough fights!


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> Well, the difference is Chucky didnt completely gas himself out and didnt look exhausted after a couple of minutes, so you would have no claims to make that Chuck wasnt in shape. He looked just like the usual chuck liddell, except he lost to a more dangerous striker.
> 
> Rua didn't look like himself. He was exhausted after about 2 minutes of fighting. He looked slow, drained and weak. None of those things apply to chucks fight with rampage.


No, Rua looked beat the hell up from a hundred flush shots to the face, right from the first minute. That's where the delusion comes in. 

I could claim the same for Chuck after 5 mins in the Pride fight. He didn't look himself either, he was slow, wobbly, and desperately trying to catch breathers on the ground. No one looks themselves when they're getting their ass whooped.

But I don't.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> No, Rua looked beat the hell up from a hundred flush shots to the face, right from the first minute. That's where the delusion comes in.
> 
> I could claim the same for Chuck after 5 mins in the Pride fight. He didn't look himself either, he was slow, wobbly, and desperately trying to catch breathers on the ground. No one looks themselves when they're getting their ass whooped.
> 
> But I don't.


I'd have to say you were watching a different fight then Liddell. 100 flush shots to the face in the first minute? What on earth are you actually talking about? Jones landed pretty much nothing on Rua in the first minute? He tried a few flashy moves, missed and blocked, then the fight went to the ground for a while. Shogun sloppily got back to his feet and ate a knee and a punch. 

Where are these 100 flush shots to the face in the first minute? Did you even watch the fight?

Chuck didnt look slow and drained or sloppy. He looked perfectly normal and fine, stop making rubbish up.

Saying Rua wasn't completely gassed is like saying Shane Carwin wasn't fucked in the second round of the Brock fight. Thats how bad Shogun looked.


----------



## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

There are no excuses of course but I can't relate to the combination of what Rua has to deal with physically and professionally.

All I know is that the dude takes the fight no matter what's going on with his body, and come fight time he will turn up no matter what shape he is in, and if he doesn't win then he will not go down easily. This may not seem very clever to some people, but that is original hardcore fighter mentality and I respect that above all, and it's not like he doesn't have the skills to match.

Toughest and most accomplished LHW on the planet currently, absolute beast.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

All I know is I'm done being a Shogun fan. If the guy can't even commit to being in shape for ONE ROUND in at least half his UFC fights, it's too heartbreaking trying to support him.


He looked like he did in the second Reem fight, the Forrest fight, the second Coleman fight, the Diabate fight. Just exhausted, hands low, first round no strength.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> All I know is I'm done being a Shogun fan. If the guy can't even commit to being in shape for ONE ROUND in at least half his UFC fights, it's too heartbreaking trying to support him.
> 
> 
> He looked like he did in the second Reem fight, the Forrest fight, the second Coleman fight, the Diabate fight. Just exhausted, hands low, first round no strength.


What ever will you do is JDS loses to Brock?


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> I'd have to say you were watching a different fight then Liddell. 100 flush shots to the face in the first minute? What on earth are you actually talking about? Jones landed pretty much nothing on Rua in the first minute? He tried a few flashy moves, missed and blocked, then the fight went to the ground for a while. Shogun sloppily got back to his feet and ate a knee and a punch.
> 
> Where are these 100 flush shots to the face in the first minute? Did you even watch the fight?
> 
> ...












First 5 secs of the fight. All downhill from there. And I hope you don't take my words literally and expect me to put up 100 gifs.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> First 5 secs of the fight. All downhill from there. And I hope you don't take my words literally and expect me to put up 100 gifs.


That knee didnt even rock or wobble Shogun. I did miss that though, from the angle it shown on TV, it looked like it was blocked.

Still though, it had nothing to do with Shoguns horrible conditioning.

You dont suddenly become exhausted after one or two clean shots to the face. Look at Lesnar vs Carwin. Edgar vs Maynard, Shogun vs Lil nog.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> That knee didnt even rock or wobble Shogun.


Comm'on man! Really?!
He went straight to the clinch after that knee!
That knee didn't tire him out, but it made a big impact.



Mckeever said:


>


There is a difference between the Jones vs Shogun gif and the other gifs and the fights they represent. 

Jones continued his attacks on Shogun after that knee: standing and on the ground. The whole fight, until the ref stopped it.

Neither one, Kongo or Nog followed up with more of the same after those shots. That's the difference.

Kongo vs Cain for example: after he was tagged, Cain immediately took Kongo down and kept him there, until he recovered. And after that he controlled Kongo all fight long. Except those 2 punches Kongo didn't do shit in that fight.

Nohgueira - same story. Didn't follow up.

I tried to stay away from this thread, but i saw it took off quite a bit.
And i think the thread title is complete bullshit. 
Or saying: this wasn't the same Shogun that fought Machida - of course it isn't. That Shogun didn't get beat up from the first second of the fight, all fight long, until the ref stopped the fight.

But in a way it's correct: it was the same Shogun - both times he lost in the third round.

_PS: the Demian Maia who fought Silva was not the same Demian Maia who fought Sonnen... _

See what i did there?!...


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

limba said:


> Comm'on man! Really?!
> He went straight to the clinch after that knee!
> That knee didn't tire him out, but it made a big impact.
> 
> ...


That knee landed and Shogun obviously felt it, but he wasnt close to being rocked, wobbled or dazed and he didnt jump on Shogun and continue hitting him like that.

He took him down and a whole lot of nothing happened (in terms of strikes) Jones landed no real GNP on the ground in these first few minutes. It was just back and forth defensive grappling which completely exhausted Shogun, as he sloppily got back to his feet and then got hit by Jones again.

In the lil nog fight, he was actually all over Rua for the entire fight and getting the better of most of the stand up exchanges. He hit Rua plenty of times and he didnt gas out like that.

When people say, "that wasnt the same Shogun in the bla bla fight" they're basing it or at least i, am basing it on his conditioning. In the lyoto fights, chuck any of his other pride fights he looks notably faster, crisper and sharper. He actually got hit by some good shots to the body and face in both Machida fights too.










Beautiful straight counter flush to the face there.

I said right from the get go that Shogun looked off and slow, because, well, he did, thats all.

A knee and a few grappling exchanges on the ground in the first few minutes shouldn't have completely exhausted him like that.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Actually they're not having an intelligent discussion and giving Jones credit. It's about as delusional as a scientologist meeting. Some choice recaps:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where were you?? Everybody who has some knowledge had a HUGE question mark behind Rua's conditioning before this fight. That was the biggest concern from all! Everybody who knows something about Shoguns history was of course very, very concern to see another Forrest vs. Shogun II.

Shogun is still one if not THE greatest LHW out there right now. We don't really know that right now, because this just was not Shogun who fought that night. 

But Shogun has nobody to blame but himself. How in the World could his coaches let him fight? It's really beyond me!

I am really mad at Shogun for thinking he could fight like that. What was he thinking?:thumbsdown: 
Why in god's sake did he had to be Super Shogun in both Machida fights and know look like crap again.. It's just unfair!

This is also far, far away from being and excuse too. It's just what happened and everybody could see it because it was right in front of you to see!!! 

Some people just can't handle the truth I guess.


I hate to take this win away from Jones because I like him and I think he makes a great Champion too, but he just did NOT fought the current LHW champion. I am sorry but thats the truth. If you want to believe this was the Shogun who won that crown, you are just delusional nothing else!

Who knows?! Maybe Jones really would beat Shogun?! Maybe we will find out the truth someday.. I hope we do and I think we will someday.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

It is obvious from reading the posts on this last page that Mckeever and BobbyCooper have a crush on Shogun. Shogun lost, but he didn't go out like a punk either, he fought his ass off, whether he was 100% is irrelevant, he's the champ, and just because Jones beat him doesn't mean I think any less of him as a fighter, the guy is a beast and that was the first time he's ever been made to look like that. He'll comeback stronger, Shogun is still young.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

ptw said:


> It is obvious from reading the posts on this last page that Mckeever and BobbyCooper have a crush on Shogun. Shogun lost, but he didn't go out like a punk either, he fought his ass off, whether he was 100% is irrelevant, he's the champ, and just because Jones beat him doesn't mean I think any less of him as a fighter, the guy is a beast and that was the first time he's ever been made to look like that. He'll comeback stronger, Shogun is still young.


Lol I am a Shogun nuthugger?  Thats new to me^^ 

I just put things into prespective here nothing else. I wish I could say different and that this was really the Shogun who won that belt not too long ago.. but why should I lie to myself? I don't see the logic behind that!


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Didn't we say in another thread before the fight that injuries won't play a part? Now they do, since he lost badly? Just stop. Did you guys not hear what his trainer said in the interviews, about how hard they've been training in every aspect for this fight?.........excuses. No one thought Jones would throw Bader around, but sure enough it happened to.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> Shogun and his wife just had a kid as well while he was home resting his knee. I wonder if that had anything to do with it.


I wonder if Jones being better at more aspects of MMA had anything to do with it ?


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

***** de Amigo said:


> I wonder if Jones being better at more aspects of MMA had anything to do with it ?


I would like to know the answer to that one too honestly..


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## GlasgowKiss (Sep 18, 2010)

Not exactly sure where I sit in this whole argument, but I'll say one thing.....

Would people please stop using the 'Shogun said, his trainer said, his hairdresser said he was 100%', point ? It's ridiculous... once the fighter decides to take the fight NO PERSON in his camp, nor him, would ever say anything different than the 'they are ready/100%/raring to go/best shape of my life' schtick. It would be complete idiocy to say anything different.


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## Big_Charm (Jan 7, 2011)

Mckeever said:


> Shogun came off a hand injury and a long lay off between Machida fights, he KO'd him in the first round.....
> 
> GSP's groin injury isnt comparable to Shoguns knee injuries, especially given the fact that gsp injured it early in the Alves fight and still dominated him.
> 
> ...


I 100% agree.... here's what else i'd like to add too :thumb02:!


I'm a Shogun fan but I would never make ridiculous excuses for a loss. Shogun looked out of shape ala Forrest/Coleman #2 fight. Yes, he took brutal shots that would have decimated ANYONE in the 205lb division in 1 round, he lasted 3. Make no mistake, I give all the credit in the world to Jones. To display such sick skills in striking, muay thai and pace just makes your head spin that he's only 23 (doing this for 3 years!!)

My main concern is having debate with people that are just plain ignorant. I have a few buddies like Limba, whom are Jones fans, but constructive debate and are intelligent in doing so. We cam to the consensus that Jones destroyed a very out of character Rua and it should have been a highly contested fight.

I'm willing to bet the majority of people that post on this forum have never done competitive sports at this level and been sidetracked with unfortunate injuries. I've done high level distance running, wrestling and much else including sparring with buddies whom train for lower divisions of fighting. It irks me to no end to hear these are 'excuses' because they are not.

To be at the top of the food chain at 205, having 3 huge dual knee surgeries, breaking bones in his hand and arm and still dominating top tier guys...

I just want to end this rant with this:

Jones is a freak of nature; These are few and far between and we've possibly witnessed a new era. I'm not discrediting his win... but this in no shape or form represented the world beater we know is Shogun.

He'll be back barring another unfortunate accident. :thumbsup:


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## Alex_DeLarge_V2 (Mar 10, 2011)

Rauno said:


> Rua just came off from KO'ing Lyoto Machida in the first minutes and said his in excellent shape. Enough of the excuses. How come Jones can't get that much credit? He came to the cage as the better man and handed an ass whooping, that's all the credit he needs.


If you couldn't notice the difference between the Shogun in the first fight with Lyoto...a guy who didn't tire in 5 rounds in a war...and the guy that gassed in two minutes in the Jon Jones fight, you may need to consider evaluating what sport you want to study.

How come Jones can't get that much credit? Have you seen the posts on this thread? People are already stating that there's NO ONE left in his division to fight. He has not even defended his title. How much more credit do you want?

Besides, it's not "taking credit" from Jones. Jones came in shape, Shogun didn't. It showed that Jon Jones wanted to become champion and Shogun was lazy. That's not taking credit away from Jon Jones.


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## GlasgowKiss (Sep 18, 2010)

Big_Charm said:


> I 100% agree.... here's what else i'd like to add too :thumb02:!
> 
> 
> I'm a Shogun fan but I would never make ridiculous excuses for a loss. Shogun looked out of shape ala Forrest/Coleman #2 fight. Yes, he took brutal shots that would have decimated ANYONE in the 205lb division in 1 round, he lasted 3. Make no mistake, I give all the credit in the world to Jones. To display such sick skills in striking, muay thai and pace just makes your head spin that he's only 23 (doing this for 3 years!!)
> ...


North of magnificent posting, mister. +1.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

GlasgowKiss said:


> Not exactly sure where I sit in this whole argument, but I'll say one thing.....
> 
> Would people please stop using the 'Shogun said, his trainer said, his hairdresser said he was 100%', point ? It's ridiculous... once the fighter decides to take the fight NO PERSON in his camp, nor him, would ever say anything different than the 'they are ready/100%/raring to go/best shape of my life' schtick. It would be complete idiocy to say anything different.


Ok, that's cool and all, but the fights over and you don't see him or his camp making excuses, only the fans are. Is it not enough for a good fighter to make another look bad? I'm tired of people reaching, Shogun looked great at the beginning, he just couldn't catch Jones. Jones landed some lethal body and head shots that threw Shogun off his game, and if you've never fought, getting rocked will gas you quick, because your body sends everything to help you recover, it's hard to train for being rocked.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Big_Charm said:


> I 100% agree.... here's what else i'd like to add too :thumb02:!
> 
> 
> I'm a Shogun fan but I would never make ridiculous excuses for a loss. Shogun looked out of shape ala Forrest/Coleman #2 fight. Yes, he took brutal shots that would have decimated ANYONE in the 205lb division in 1 round, he lasted 3. Make no mistake, I give all the credit in the world to Jones. To display such sick skills in striking, muay thai and pace just makes your head spin that he's only 23 (doing this for 3 years!!)
> ...


Thank you for putting my thoughts into much more rational words.


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## Big_Charm (Jan 7, 2011)

Mckeever said:


> Thank you for putting my thoughts into much more rational words.


I had much more to say but was afraid it would turn into me spewing 'bile' :thumb02:

The worst part about saturday night was not Shogun losing... It was my good buddy having a UFC party and some guys came from his work that didn't know anything about MMA.

If you can imagine this... i'm Jones' weigh in size minus 15 lbs and similar build.... this guy is Franky Edgars size and keeps telling me how Shogun was shit and such.... yadda yadda.

I almost pulled a Jones.... one more swig of whiskey and you would have read a news story about a Shogun fan pulling a Jones :fight02:


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Big_Charm said:


> I had much more to say but was afraid it would turn into me spewing 'bile' :thumb02:
> 
> The worst part about saturday night was not Shogun losing... It was my good buddy having a UFC party and some guys came from his work that didn't know anything about MMA.
> 
> ...


ha ha, I can some what relate to that. I watched it with a friend who had never seen Shogun fight prior to the other night and all I heard from him was how Shogun is a terrible fighter bla bla bla. So annoying.....

You should have continued in your other post, its just a shame that even though you logically try to reason and explain why Shogun had such a poor performance you are still labelled a "nuthugger" or "delusional".


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## Big_Charm (Jan 7, 2011)

Mckeever said:


> ha ha, I can some what relate to that. I watched it with a friend who had never seen Shogun fight prior to the other night and all I heard from him was how Shogun is a terrible fighter bla bla bla. So annoying.....
> 
> You should have continued in your other post, its just a shame that even though you logically try to reason and explain why Shogun had such a poor performance you are still labelled a "nuthugger" or "delusional".


I hear you.

I think UFC should adopt another way of thinking ... going to throw a big curve out there...

When the champion gets hurt, the #1 contender usually fights again if they want to stay active. In doing so, they 'could' potentially lose their status and have to start at the bottom o the totem pole again.

Why not give the champ a non title fight when back from a huge layoff from injuries, etc so they can be 100% before they defend?

I think all competitive athletes want the biggest challenge and winning against a guy you know isn't fully 100% takes away from it deep down inside. 
Call me crazy :thumb02:


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## Black_S15 (Jul 14, 2010)

^^ your crazy


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## djkrazykill (Mar 22, 2011)

Fine Wine said:


> Yes, Jones did the right thing in taking his time.
> 
> But Rua was not dazed from shots, he was dazed from no fitness. I've seen 10s of thousands of fights over my years watching MMA and boxing and you do not get rocked by a shot and then take a minute break and come out just as sloppy, particularly so early in a fight. Your brain recovers and you come out fresh. Or you are wobbly and fall over, but you still have a lot of power (why do you think they say in fighting sports, 'a wounded animal is most dangerous'?). It is because even when you are rocked, you can still summon power punching. Rua on the other hand, had absolutely nothing left in his shots and therefore obviously nothing left in the gas tank. This was the Rua from the Forrest fight. Sad and disappointing for Rua, good for Jones, but in no way shows what Jones would do to a healthy Rua nor what he will do to a Machida.


Hate to burst your bubble but the 10's of thousands of matches you saw over the years were pro wrestling, WWE. You do know that's fake right? (they come back out fresh hahaha)Because over the years, the 10's of thousand of mma and boxing that the rest of us sane people saw. TONS of fighters had matches in which they never recovered from a brutal first round beating. It's not as simple as your comment "they either come out fresh after 1 min or wobbly and fall down. wtf? are you six? First of all the beating Shogun took doesn't happen in boxing(slams, gnp, knees, hands over mouth and nostrils elbows etc.) so scratch that theory. Shogun got hit early and often. viscious knees to his body, elbows over the throat. headbutt to the body, body shot,body shot, head kick and combos on the gate WHAT?!?! trying half a round to sweep or get off his ,back, come on man Jones beat him soundly all those body shots and this huge kid who should be in a higher weight class putting all his weight on Shogun is what depleted his gas tank. Shogun was in the same shape as he was in the Machida fight, he just wasn't fighting Machida, everybody looks drained or unconscious after fighting Jones


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> ha ha, I can some what relate to that. I watched it with a friend who had never seen Shogun fight prior to the other night and all I heard from him was how Shogun is a terrible fighter bla bla bla. So annoying.....
> 
> You should have continued in your other post, its just a shame that even though you logically try to reason and explain why Shogun had such a poor performance you are still labelled a "nuthugger" or "delusional".


Yep and then you get multiple neg reps.

Shogun had a very poor performance and it cannot be 'because Jones was that good'. No athlete should gas in a few minutes, particularly a world class champion athlete. He looked out of shape completely and had nothing left in him after just a few minutes. Fair enough, Jones wooped him good and proper but he did not beat a top leve Rua, is this Jones fault? No. Is this Ruas fault? Yes.


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## djkrazykill (Mar 22, 2011)

Fine Wine said:


> Yes, Jones did the right thing in taking his time.
> 
> But Rua was not dazed from shots, he was dazed from no fitness. I've seen 10s of thousands of fights over my years watching MMA and boxing and you do not get rocked by a shot and then take a minute break and come out just as sloppy, particularly so early in a fight. Your brain recovers and you come out fresh. Or you are wobbly and fall over, but you still have a lot of power (why do you think they say in fighting sports, 'a wounded animal is most dangerous'?). It is because even when you are rocked, you can still summon power punching. Rua on the other hand, had absolutely nothing left in his shots and


 I don't mean to harp on the same post but REALLY DUDE?!? You NEVER saw a fight IN THESE 10'S OF THOUSANDS OF FIGHTS you claim you saw, a fighter so physically (and mentally) broken and outclassed (in every aspect) in the first round and never recover? and this wounded animal is the most dangerous thing? dude thats a cliche. Wounded animals stay wounded until you kill put them out lf their misery. Shogun got the gas beat out of him period get over it.


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## Ryankmfdm (Sep 24, 2010)

I, for one, think *BobbyCooper* and *Mckeever* bring up some excellent points. And I'll be the first to admit, I have a huge man-crush on Shogun. But he looked terrible on Saturday night. 

Now I'm not necessarily saying I wasn't impressed with Jones's performance--as much as I dislike the guy, I was. I'm not even saying a 100% Shogun would beat Jones. But he'd look a helluva lot better than he did on Saturday.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

khoveraki said:


> All I know is I'm done being a Shogun fan. If the guy can't even commit to being in shape for ONE ROUND in at least half his UFC fights, it's too heartbreaking trying to support him.
> 
> 
> He looked like he did in the second Reem fight, the Forrest fight, the second Coleman fight, the Diabate fight. Just exhausted, hands low, first round no strength.


Add me to that list.

I am not even a big fan of Shogun (not one of my favourite fighters), but it is heartbreaking seeing a legend come in and gas after less than 1 round. I know the same feeling watching BJ Penn.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Shogun had sub-forrest speed in the fight but he was like that before he gassed so his knees just might be gone altogether after all the surgeries. I don't think him having good cardio would have changed the outcome of the fight he wasn't going to be able to deal with Bones top game either way and that is where he got hurt really badly. He was done before those final two strikes standing.


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## Maazisrock (Sep 22, 2008)

Umm no. He was hurt real bad, even the first flying knew of the opening first round landed. Rua was hurt real bad from the first min of the fight.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)




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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> That knee landed and Shogun obviously felt it, but he wasnt close to being rocked, wobbled or dazed and he didnt jump on Shogun and continue hitting him like that.
> 
> He took him down and a whole lot of nothing happened (in terms of strikes) Jones landed no real GNP on the ground in these first few minutes. It was just back and forth defensive grappling which completely exhausted Shogun, as he sloppily got back to his feet and then got hit by Jones again.
> 
> ...


Just to put an exclamation mark on my view, thought I'd add this confirmation of it from Shogun's brother himself



> "Yes, I was very surprised with (Jones’) game, Shogun trained a lot, Jones was able to neutralize my brother’s game, I think he studied Shogun’s game a lot, so congrats to him. Shogun now needs to go back to Brazil and analyze the fight, see what went wrong in the fight and go from there, ball forward."
> 
> "I think (Jones) has a brilliant future ahead of him, he’s a very young athlete, but in this weight class I think it’s very hard… people don’t seem to be able to keep the title for more than one fight. Everyone wins and then loses the belt so it’s a very tough weight class and there are a lot of great fighters, so we’ll see, he’s a young guy and will stay strong going forward, but Shogun will be able to make a strong come back, for sure."
> 
> *"I think (what went wrong during the fight) was that the very first strikes Jones landed on Shogun, that knee and the head kick, may have taken his gas away.*"


http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/89229-murilo-ninja-rua-first-knee-kick-took-shoguns-gas-away.html

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/3/21/2063505/ninja-the-very-first-knee-and-kick-took-shoguns-gashttp-contenti1

Thanks limba for another great thread. 

Go ahead guys, call Ninja a liar too. You're already calling Shogun one for claiming he was in good shape coming in to the fight.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Just to put an exclamation mark on my view, thought I'd add this confirmation of it from Shogun's brother himself
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That exclamation mark holds about as much weight as Shogun saying he was 100 percent healthy for the fight.

Shogun and Eduardo are too humble for their own good, they wouldn't ever want to try and discredit Jones' win and they wouldn't ever want to admit the fact that Shogun came into the fight with horrible conditioning in a title fight, due to the embarrassment.

I'm not saying those early shots didnt have any effect on Shoguns health, obviously he felt them and it hurt him, but they are not the result of a world class athlete and fighter being completely exhausted and void of any energy throughout almost the entire fight.

Hello Frank Edgar vs Gray Maynard, Hello Brock Lesnar vs Shane Carwin, hello Jake Shields vs Dan Henderson. I could go on.

Your argument about Shogun saying he was 100 percent healthy for the fight is a very weak one. When pretty much every single fighter out there says the exact same thing before a fight, injuries or not. Wake up.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> Just to put an exclamation mark on my view, thought I'd add this confirmation of it from Shogun's brother himself
> 
> 
> 
> ...


liar liar liar lair liar liar, that is all from my troll post


----------



## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> That exclamation mark holds about as much weight as Shogun saying he was 100 percent healthy for the fight.
> 
> Shogun and Eduardo are too humble for their own good, they wouldn't ever want to try and discredit Jones' win and they wouldn't ever want to admit the fact that Shogun came into the fight with horrible conditioning in a title fight, due to the embarrassment.
> 
> ...


See this is the denial I was talking about, there's always another excuse to keep believing a crow is white.

It wouldn't take away from his humility if he straight up admitted he didn't train as hard as he should, and he apologized to his fans for not performing to his potential. It would actually be even more humble, because he would admit his mistake and lack of resolve to build back up well knowing a tough fight was coming up.

But the biggest reason your denial theory #3 falls through is that Shogun has *already done* what you claim he wouldn't do. This was right after the Forrest fight



> “I was Really very sad, was the worse defeat of my career”, declared Shogun. Previously, a broken arm - in the fight against Mark Coleman - and a finishing against Renato “Babalu” Sobral in 2003 had been the only defeats of the "curitibano".
> 
> “I had never gassed as i gassed in this fight. But he does not advance to invent excuses, the error was mine, I did not train as he would have, I did not concentrate myself, had had other things that had confused, but it also had merits. "I learned a lesson from this and now i will have to train to comeback stronger”, relieved the fighter.


http://www.mmanews.com/ufc/Shogun-Talks-Griffin-Loss-Has-Knee-Surgery-Scheduled.html

So he basically admits his cardio and training wasn't up to par in that fight, while still being humble and trying not to take too much away from Forrest. 

And yet neither he nor ninja do that after this one. They just admit the truth. It's his fans that can't.


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## tkoshea (Nov 14, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> That exclamation mark holds about as much weight as Shogun saying he was 100 percent healthy for the fight.
> 
> Shogun and Eduardo are too humble for their own good, they wouldn't ever want to try and discredit Jones' win and they wouldn't ever want to admit the fact that Shogun came into the fight with horrible conditioning in a title fight, due to the embarrassment.
> 
> ...


Agreed, if anything Shogun is just showing his class as a man and as a fighter by not wanting to make excuses and detract from Jones' success.

The fact remains Shogun was out of action for the best part of a year, also that in the last 4-5 years his fitness and form has been erratic at best.

Jones was great and put on an awesome performance but I think people should at least consider the likelihood of the Shogun Jones beat not beat a prime Shogun.

Quinton Jackson even claimed he had trained his hardest ever and been in his best ever shape for his fight against Rashad (although he did mention the ring rust factor) but I think it was pretty clear to most that his work on the A Team and the promotion of it played a part in disrupting his performance (he was in Hollywood for the premier some 3 days later after all)

I don't think Shogun saying he was 100% can be used as evidence that he was, all it shows is his class and integrity.

Jones was still immense and may well go on to be the biggest thing in all of mma, but for now I think most are getting a little carried away (he has not even made a title defense yet much less the type of achievements GSP and Silva have already made)


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

ok let me query you this, have you ever been rocked or at least hit really hard? it makes you go into disney land and into survival mode but it has NO effect on your cardio, and you can assume im a liar if you want but i have been hit with 16ounce gloves,bare knuckles and knees and your cardio is not affected one bit unless it is a rib shot but we are talking about a flying knee so that argument is not valid, frank edgar was rocked for the whole first round and he still managed a draw in the other 4 rounds, if your logic and ninjas was true he would have been koed or collapsed after that one round, same deal with brock vs carwin and lebens fights, believe me dont believe whatever im done with talking about this match its over jones is champ im focusing on suga vs bones npw


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> That exclamation mark holds about as much weight as Shogun saying he was 100 percent healthy for the fight.
> 
> Shogun and Eduardo are too humble for their own good, they wouldn't ever want to try and discredit Jones' win and they wouldn't ever want to admit the fact that Shogun came into the fight with horrible conditioning in a title fight, due to the embarrassment.
> 
> ...


If they really want to just ignore what happend then let them do so Mc. I think it's worhtless to argue about this anymore because it's right in front of you to see for everybody and not only for us.

The thing we both can do is, after Shogun gets his rematch with Jones we can say for sure who the better man is and show them how the real Shogun looks like and not a shadow of his former self..

We will just come back after Jones vs. Shogun II and enjoy the reactions after Jones became even more skilled and more lethal.

Shogun will be Shogun then and then we will get our fight :thumbsup: .. finally


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

UFC_OWNS said:


> ok let me query you this, have you ever been rocked or at least hit really hard? it makes you go into disney land and into survival mode but it has NO effect on your cardio, and you can assume im a liar if you want but i have been hit with 16ounce gloves,bare knuckles and knees and your cardio is not affected one bit unless it is a rib shot but we are talking about a flying knee so that argument is not valid, frank edgar was rocked for the whole first round and he still managed a draw in the other 4 rounds, if your logic and ninjas was true he would have been koed or collapsed after that one round, same deal with brock vs carwin and lebens fights, believe me dont believe whatever im done with talking about this match its over jones is champ im focusing on suga vs bones npw


Yes I have, I've been training full contact muay thai and MMA since around the time I joined this forum, and have wrestled a bit before that.

You don't gas, but you get dazed, slowed, tentative and sluggish. You don't get back into peak condition for hours or days, let alone the rest of the fight.

Edgar vs Maynard was a miracle exception, that's what makes it so impressive. MOST other fights never turn around after that hard a beating except for a submission. You don't see guys suddenly speed up and hop around on the balls of their feet after a round of getting beat up ... they either get flat-footed, slowed and cautious, or go gung ho with slow winging last ditch efforts. Most of the turnarounds at this point come from submissions, which of course are relatively unrelated to the gas/damage tank. 

Take a look, 90% of UFC fights that have a beatdown in the first round only continue with more of the same.

It may not be "gassing" per se, but it comes out to about the same thing in real terms and so fighters use the term loosely. The point is you still slow down because of the pain and psychological loss, instead of lack of breath. Heck, you can think of it in terms of a "Health" bar and a "Cardio" bar in a video game.

In fact if you look closely, Shogun didn't show the signs of true "gassing" .. he was not breathing hard or heavily with an open mouth, drooping forward, dropping his arms etc., he was showing signs of damage.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> Yes I have, I've been training full contact muay thai and MMA since around the time I joined this forum, and have wrestled a bit before that.
> 
> You don't gas, but you get dazed, slowed, tentative and sluggish. You don't get back into peak condition for hours or days, let alone the rest of the fight.
> 
> ...


still dont know how the eff frankie has that kind of cardio


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Yes I have, I've been training full contact muay thai and MMA since around the time I joined this forum, and have wrestled a bit before that.
> 
> You don't gas, but you get dazed, slowed, tentative and sluggish. You don't get back into peak condition for hours or days, let alone the rest of the fight.
> 
> ...


Just wait for Shogun vs. Jones II and even you will realize.. 

just if this didn't already happen before lol :confused05:


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

UFC_OWNS said:


> still dont know how the eff frankie has that kind of cardio


Must be his elf powers :confused02:. Guy's champ for a reason.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> Yes I have, I've been training full contact muay thai and MMA since around the time I joined this forum, and have wrestled a bit before that.
> 
> You don't gas, but you get dazed, slowed, tentative and sluggish. You don't get back into peak condition for hours or days, let alone the rest of the fight.
> 
> ...


Thats exactly what he was doing, he could barley keep his arms up tight. How can you not possibly have seen that?! Did you not see in between rounds Shoguns corner repeat the instructions' "BREATHE!, BREATHE!, BREATHE!" 10 or so times? with Shoguns mouth wide open gasping for air?!

Another point is that in frankie edgars case, shogun didnt take any where near the amount of damage Frankie did in that first round, not even close.

Frankie was rolling around the octagon, falling over himself, he didnt know what day it was in there. Shogun didnt receive any where near the amount of damage frankie did in that 1st round or brock lesnar received in his or jake shields received in his first round pounding.

As I said earlier, a solid knee, that didnt even visibly rock Shogun is not going to completely zap all of his energy and conditioning, it just isnt.

As for your other post, maybe they didn't want to make up excuses for this fight like they kind of did with Griffin, who knows.

All I know is, that was in no way shape or form a healthy Shogun Rua.

I'm not the type of guy to make up excuses either. I'm a huge BJ Penn fan but you wont find me trying to excuse the beating Fitch gave him in the third round, hell I still think Fitch won the fight.

I'm not even a big fan of Shogun and I have no reason to make excuses up for him.


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## lpbigd4444 (Oct 1, 2008)

Am I the only one that has ever seen Shogun before? He ALWAYS looks soft in the midsection that is his body type and he gasses when bigger and stronger men put pressure on him.. just like the forrest fight. Everyone always has these excuses but its easy to have good cardio when u r always comfortable in a fight. You lose cardio when u feel pressure and panic. I dont think he was out of shape I think Bones is just a way better athlete that was able to put enough pressure to tire him out.


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