# UFC 104: Mauricio Shogun Rua signs to fight Lyoto Machida in October



## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

> The 2005 Pride FC Middleweight Grand Prix winner, Mauricio “Shogun” Rua, earlier this week did indeed sign a bout agreement to challenge UFC Light Heavyweight Champion Lyoto Machida, which will more than likely take place at UFC 104 from the Staples Center in Los Angeles, Calif., on Oct. 24.
> 
> SuperLutas.com.br was able to confirm the rumored match up with sources close to the Brazilian’s camp.
> 
> ...


http://mmamania.com/2009/05/29/ufc-104-mauricio-shogun-rua-signs-to-fight-lyoto-machida-in-october/

Rampage chickend out huh. " i dont want to fight for the title cuz i want to be on TUF " yeah right


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## Finnsidious (Mar 14, 2009)

Bit of a surprise, but if Rampage would rather fight Rashad then you might as well give shogun a crack at Machida. 

I think Griffin, Jackson and even Rashad all have more legitimate claims to fight Machida, but it's not completely Lesnaresque to let Shogun fight for the title (Did I just coin a new word? Lesnaresque? Someone call Miriam-Websters)


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Why Rampage... even though I'm excited for the TUF, why did he wuss out of a title fight? Now he'll be known as a fight dodger for the rest of his career.

Hopefully Shogun puts up a good fight. Best believe I won't bet on this fight.


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## xbrokenshieldx (Mar 5, 2007)

I was reading somewhere (maybe Sherdog, neg rep away) that Rampage told Dana that the belt is always going to be around, and he will fight for it eventually rather Machida has it or not... Seems to me like Rashad will be around for awhile, too. It is his perogative, though.

It is possible that the UFC offered Rampage some money to "dodge" Machida and call out Rashad so they could get these two on TUF without looking like they were screwing Machida over.. Not sure Machida would be a ratings hit with his poor English and humble personality.


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## Anibus (Feb 4, 2008)

This has potential to be a great fight. But which Shogun will show up? If Shogun is truly back to his old form, I'm really excited to see this fight happen.


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## AceFranklin88 (Apr 21, 2007)

I bet when Rashad beats Page's ass, Rampage will blame the long layoff like he did in the Griffin fight. "I'm never taking 10 months off again" Right Quinton...Right.

As for Shogun vs Lyoto, I think Machida's style is tailor-made to KO someone with Shogun's style. But then again, I thought the same about Chuck. Should be an awesome fight either way.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

I don't think Shogun deserves this fight at all and it's not like Shogun has a big name that helped bump him up, most new fans think he isn't that great at all.


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## prolyfic (Apr 22, 2007)

Rampage wants Rashad. Rampage is assuming he would beat Machida and then only God knows if he would see Rashad. I am sure though if he beats Rashad that he will get that title shot for sure.

In reguards to Shogun...can't really see him doing much to Machida. He didn't really have a chance to test out the gas tank but we shall see. 

Wait how did he get a shot at the title already anyway. Let me go KO Chuck, maybe then I'll get a title shot:sarcastic12:...MY GOD!


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## Kingofkings (Jan 18, 2009)

Dodging a fight? Get the **** outta here. Did Rampage dodge the champ taking the Jardine fight? 

Rampage will talk a lot of trash, and hype TUF this fall. Then mop the octagon with Rashad, and then take his title back spring of 2010 with a huge run. Wandy, Jardine, Evans, whoever is champ....impressive nonetheless.

I would actually bet on Dana talking Rampage into this after the stare down and trash talk that happened in the cage after the Jardine fight....Dana couldn't stand not getting this together with Rashad and Page on TUF running their mouths back and forth. 

If anyone thinks one fighter is scared of another then wtf are they fighting for in the first place?


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

cdtcpl said:


> I don't think Shogun deserves this fight at all and it's not like Shogun has a big name that helped bump him up, most new fans think he isn't that great at all.


True. But I personally don't care what "new" fans think. If they are any kind of fan, all you have to do is youtube Shogun to understand hes not a scrub off the street.Shogun isn't a hypetrain that got derailed like kimbo. Most understand that his shitty performances were due to injuries which resulted in cardio problems. Besides forrest griffin, he hasn't lost since 2003 . Technically, he lost to coleman but we all know rua would've killed him at that time.


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## NastyNinja (Feb 4, 2009)

What shocked me was spoken/Norway saying he was scared....

You guys know better then that.


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## stadw0n (Dec 31, 2006)

shogun wins this via KO in 2nd round


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## DropKicker (Apr 16, 2009)

And just like how everyone was so sure of Shogun being talored made for Chuck liddell's style...he won that fight & in convincing fashion. Sure Machida is a fight genius & probably looks unstoppable right now. But how Shogun showed up at the fight against Liddell, only shows that he's got the best tools to dethrone Maschida with his verstility. In that fight alone we saw good standup & footwork. He took Chuck down. He showed submission attemps. He got all the more tools to give Machida problems if one or the other doesn't work. He aint one demensional simpily put. I know I won't be counting Shogun out so fast just yet.


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## Pannett (Sep 20, 2008)

I can't wait for this fight.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

xbrokenshieldx said:


> I was reading somewhere (maybe Sherdog, neg rep away) that Rampage told Dana that the belt is always going to be around, and he will fight for it eventually rather Machida has it or not... Seems to me like Rashad will be around for awhile, too. It is his perogative, though.
> 
> It is possible that the UFC offered Rampage some money to "dodge" Machida and call out Rashad so they could get these two on TUF without looking like they were screwing Machida over.. Not sure Machida would be a ratings hit with his poor English and humble personality.


He'd be a horrible coach, not because he lacks communication but his style is so different from the standard boxing standup, wrestling takedown then bjj ground game tha he would have to completely retrain every fighter. So yeah, you are probably right.


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## mattreis324 (Mar 24, 2009)

To everyone who doesn't think Shogun should be fighting for the belt:

Who do you think should get the shot?

I agree that Shogun isn't an ideal challenger, but Machida wants to defend the title quickly and there isn't a clear #1 contender other than Rampage. There have been worse title contenders before *cough* Lesnar *cough*.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Hopefully Shogun will be back to 100 percent for this fight.


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

DropKicker said:


> And just like how everyone was so sure of Shogun being talored made for Chuck liddell's style...he won that fight & in convincing fashion. Sure Machida is a fight genius & probably looks unstoppable right now. But how Shogun showed up at the fight against Liddell, only shows that he's got the best tools to dethrone Maschida with his verstility. In that fight alone we saw good standup & footwork. He took Chuck down. He showed submission attemps. He got all the more tools to give Machida problems if one or the other doesn't work. He aint one demensional simpily put. I know I won't be counting Shogun out so fast just yet.


There is a difference between them. Lyoto isn't old, isn't out of his prime, and doesn't fight in slow motion now like Chuck does. I also doubt he would have gotten caught by such an average left hand. It didn't look very nice.

That being said, Lyoto by decision in my opinion.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

very excited.


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## dudeabides (Sep 30, 2008)

This will be fun to watch but don't see Lyoto lyosing, Chuck must feel pretty good. Dana says he is washed up, but all a fighter has to do is beat him to get a shot at the belt, sounds more like #2 contender.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

Shogun has great TD's, I think he will take Lyoto down and get in some good ground and pound. Ive never seen Shogun get a shot stuffed. If he can take down Chuck and Coleman, he will take down Machida. Even if he doesnt, his striking is different then anyone Machida has faught. He has great kicks, and has improved his defense alot. I think this fight is going to very interesting AND competitve.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm upset with Jackson's attitude towards the opportunity to get the belt back. I hope he has not felt that Machida is way better fighter that he is. It looks like after seeing Evans' face he immediately spoke to UFC management, "You know guys, I've changed my mind... I better do some TUF with Rashad instead"











All this makes me wonder, what would happen if Liddell had beaten Rua on UFC 97? It lookes like he would get a title shot!


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

For some reason I find that picture very upsetting.


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## NastyNinja (Feb 4, 2009)

In my dream world this is what would happen....

Shogun would of been beat by Chuck

Serra would of beat Hughes with devastating striking

Maia summits Nate first round after taking a HUGH shot from Nate and using a combo + double leg to get Nate down.

Chuck moves on and lands on Machida and beats him with Chuck style

If all this went like this we would have a full circle not a food chain in MMA, that would boost this sport even higher...Showing anything can happen and that being who you are makes you a fighter not what you train on this week.

I would love to see Machida lose to somebody who is suppost to be his pray.


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## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

NastyNinja said:


> In my dream world this is what would happen....
> 
> Shogun would of been beat by Chuck
> 
> ...


Sounds like my worst nightmare..lol


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Freelancer said:


> For some reason I find that picture very upsetting.


Man.. I feel you. I just get upset whenever I get that picture.. WHY RASHAD!!??! WHY!?!?!?


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

I think Rampage was smart not to fight Machida right away. He knows, as we all do, that Machida would demolish him with the way he is fighting now. 

If he can get past Rashad, he will show that he has a better chance at Machida.


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## Charles Lee Ray (May 4, 2008)

It would have made more sense if Shogun and Evans couched the series and fought at the end with Rampage fighting Machida for the title.


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## DAMURDOC (May 27, 2007)

Since when does he deserve a shot at it.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Rampage deserves the shot because he did lose it in a close fight, and then won his next 2, one by first round KO. He's pretty deserving considering when he lost he didn't drop down that far.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

Jackson is #1 contender, that's obvious. Shogun is #2 (mostly because of his accomplishments in PRIDE). The third is probably Luiz Cain (assuming that he'll beat his next opponent), although I'd say that Dan Henderson deserves it much more, but he's busy.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

DAMURDOC said:


> Since when does he deserve a shot at it.


seens when did rampage deserve a shot? or nog or brock i can go on all day. some of u morons dont even realize that there is no one else that can fight machida , rampage is figthing rashad , forest is out of question he lost his last fight and is fighting andy, franklin and wand are booked, thiago silva vs jardine is bookd luiz cain will not test machida and does not deserve the shot. only logical choice is shogun sso stop ******* bitching already.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

If you know Rampage, you know why he fights. Its for the CHEDDAH!!! He has said it on numerous occasions, its all about the money. Coaches on TUF get well compensated for their appearances on the show, and usually get a sick car at the end.

Not to mention, I think he really wants to fight Rashad. I dont think Ramapage is scared of anyone. When your at that level, you dont fear other fighters. Im sure he thinks Rashad is an easier opponent, but it doesnt mean he is ducking Lyoto. He knows he will either have to fight him or Shogun. And im sure he is more scared of Shogun then he is Machida. He has said numerous times, Shogun is the best he ever faught.


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## miguelclass (Aug 17, 2008)

I think Rampage was doomed either way. If he fought Machida, we would just get outworked and outpointed (Machida is a better Forrest). But, If he fights Rashad, although he has a decent chance for a knockout, he will probably still get beat. Rashad is a more patient, more versatile striker and has good wrestling, if he decides to use it. Lyoto, on the other hand, gets a bigger challenge in Shogun. Machida has never fought somebody with BJJ as good as Shogun, unless you count a way undersized BJ Penn. However, I don't think Shogun, who is probably a little small for the weight class, will be able to close the distance to utilize his clinch and BJJ


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

jdun11 said:


> If you know Rampage, you know why he fights. Its for the CHEDDAH!!! He has said it on numerous occasions, its all about the money. Coaches on TUF get well compensated for their appearances on the show, and usually get a sick car at the end.
> 
> Not to mention, I think he really wants to fight Rashad. I dont think Ramapage is scared of anyone. When your at that level, you dont fear other fighters. Im sure he thinks Rashad is an easier opponent, but it doesnt mean he is ducking Lyoto. He knows he will either have to fight him or Shogun. And im sure he is more scared of Shogun then he is Machida. He has said numerous times, Shogun is the best he ever faught.


He gets the money for doing the show as well as the exposure to help rehab his image and then gets to beat Rashad's shit talking ass and still get his title shot. I don't think it would be as clean cut who the bad guy is and who the good guy is if he did the show with Machida also. Having a jackass as the other coach makes the other guy look better by comparison even if they are acting like an obnoxious retard as well Serra for instance.



miguelclass said:


> I think Rampage was doomed either way. If he fought Machida, we would just get outworked and outpointed (Machida is a better Forrest). But, If he fights Rashad, although he has a decent chance for a knockout, he will probably still get beat. Rashad is a more patient, more versatile striker and has good wrestling, if he decides to use it. Lyoto, on the other hand, gets a bigger challenge in Shogun. Machida has never fought somebody with BJJ as good as Shogun, unless you count a way undersized BJ Penn. However, I don't think Shogun, who is probably a little small for the weight class, will be able to close the distance to utilize his clinch and BJJ


Hendo has better wrestling than Rashad and good hands and Rampage beat him and wasn't dominated on the ground. People act like Rampage can't throw a headkick of course he can he just chooses not to in fights because it isn't part of his strategy just because Rashad throws a head kick now and then doesn't mean he is more versatile in standup.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Shogun vs. Machida is interesting.

Striking, Machida will pick Shogun apart. Shogun showed improved defense against Liddell, however, his improvements were:

Moving his head(from side to side, which Machida will time very easily)
Covering his head with his hands
Moving backwards

I mean, these are improvments, but these are BASIC things a fighter should learn like, i don't know, the first day of training.

His improvements are small, and not so impressive. He basically went from a wild striker with no defense, to a semi-wild striker with basic defense anyone with class 1 striking should have.

The only thing Machida needs to worry about is the takedowns. As far as that goes, I don't see Shogun getting close enough to take him down. Even if he does get close, Machida is an animal in the clinch. He also won't make mistakes like Chuck did, getting so close and letting Shogun grab him from the side.

Shogun's cardio hasn't been tested yet, either. Shogun fans like to think it has, as he went not even a full round with Liddell(which is completely stupid to base his cardio off of). It wasn't even that fast paced of a round. How will Shogun's cardio do when he has someone like Machida using such great movement? Shogun will have to work A LOT in this fight if he plans to do anything.

Basically, Shogun is one of the guys I would put in there with Machida to test him as Shogun is good in most areas, well rounded, good skills. However, his striking is wild with very basic defense, his cardio is STILL untested, his ground game is solid, we all know that.

It all comes down to 1 question: can he take Lyoto down? To that I answer, I don't think he can get close enough, and if by chance he does, he has to get passed Machida's ninja of a clinch as well as Machida's balance and strength advantage. 

I like this fight better than Rampage, I see Shogun having a better chance.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

I'd like to see Shogun proving everyone wrong by knocking Machida out (kind of like Randleman knocked out Cro Cop when nobody expected that). That would be my favorite upset in MMA history.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

dontazo said:


> seens when did rampage deserve a shot? or nog or brock i can go on all day. some of u morons dont even realize that there is no one else that can fight machida , rampage is figthing rashad , forest is out of question he lost his last fight and is fighting andy, franklin and wand are booked, thiago silva vs jardine is bookd luiz cain will not test machida and does not deserve the shot. only logical choice is shogun sso stop ******* bitching already.


Yup. Everyone stating that Shogun doesn't deserve the shot... most people that get title shots don't. But Shogun is the most qualified LHW AVAILABLE. Everyone else is already booked for fights, and Rampage backed out and wanted Rashad instead.

I, of course, take Shogun. His striking is underrated and he can adapt. He isn't like Wandy where he just goes headhunting furiously throughout the rounds. He has a plan, he sticks to it and executes. His takedowns are SEVERELY underrated. And his submission defense and offense has always been great.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> Shogun vs. Machida is interesting.
> 
> Striking, Machida will pick Shogun apart. Shogun showed improved defense against Liddell, however, his improvements were:
> 
> ...


what the hell are u talking about? basic striking? shogun is one of the most unpredictable and versatile strikers in lhw. he has excellent kicks and heavy hands with very unorthodox punches very similar to fedor. he also has better jitz than machida... machidas bjj has never been tested so far. any way i think it is closer than most of u mma experts think


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

dontazo said:


> what the hell are u talking about? basic striking? shogun is one of the most unpredictable and versatile strikers in lhw. he has excellent kicks and heavy hands with very unorthodox punches very similar to fedor. he also has better jitz than machida... machidas bjj has never been tested so far. any way i think it is closer than most of u mma experts think


Next time, why don't you try and actually read my post?

I said he had basic striking DEFENSE, which he does. He moves his head from side to side, he moved backwards once, and he puts his hands up. Very BASIC striking defense, you learn these things your first day of training.

As far his his BJJ goes, I said he had a solid ground game in my original post.

Seriously, did you even read the post?

Lol.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

no i did not read it... but thats not the point here... waht do u want him to do ??? dodge matrix style? what u mean basic defense LIKE what do u think he should do? do a barrel roll every time machida punches him? or crush his punches with his head?


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

I wouldn't hold him in high regard standing wise, he has over rated stand up. Beating an aging and slow Liddell standing isn't that impressive to me. Machida would have laughed at that left hand he threw. I really think Shoguns striking will be irrelevant when he fights Machida and he should really focus on getting it to the ground. It just seems like the more sensible game plan to have in my opinion.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

so when rashad ko'd chuck it was great... besides chuck was beating the shit out of rashad ... while shogun was ******* chck up


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

basic... well fedors punches are basic but it works... nogs bijj is basic but he subs people... BASIC does not exist. effective or not effective... and shoguns new defence is definatly effective...


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> The reason why I brought up his defense is because some of the Shogun fans are hyping up his new defense abilities as if it is some amazing new trick, when in reality it is just basic defense that any fighter, especially of that level, should have. It's not anything Machida hasn't seen before, it's just basic stuff.


basic... well fedors punches are basic but it works... nogs bijj is basic but he subs people... BASIC does not exist. effective or not effective... and shoguns new defence is definatly effective...


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

dontazo said:


> no i did not read it... but thats not the point here... waht do u want him to do ??? dodge matrix style? what u mean basic defense LIKE what do u think he should do? do a barrel roll every time machida punches him? or crush his punches with his head?


The reason why I brought up his defense is because some of the Shogun fans are hyping up his new defense abilities as if it is some amazing new trick, when in reality it is just basic defense that any fighter, especially of that level, should have. It's not anything Machida hasn't seen before, it's just basic stuff.

EDIT - Also, try and read posts before you quote them, as the reply you made to my post was completely off based.


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

dontazo said:


> so when rashad ko'd chuck it was great... besides chuck was beating the shit out of rashad ... while shogun was ******* chck up


I don't really think Rashads stand up is that great either. Forrest and Machida showed that by out striking Rashad easily. Besides, he didn't show any offense in the first round against Chuck and was basically waiting for the right time to strike. In the second round, Rashad was winning up until the knock out, and lets be real, Chuck left himself wide open for that.

Chuck didn't look that great against Rashad or Shogun and I don't think a win over an aging and slow Chuck like I said, shows that Shogun is this new excellent striker that Machida should worry about standing. I think his gameplan should be to clinch and attempt to trip Machida to the canvas. Standing is a bad idea probably.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> Chuck didn't look that great against Rashad or Shogun and I don't think a win over an aging and slow Chuck like I said, shows that Shogun is this new excellent striker that Machida should worry about standing.


When people speak of Rua they usually mean PRIDE Shogun, because there's always a chance to see him back. We don't know if he is really back, it was either Liddell looked so bad that made Shogun look so good or Shogun really outclassed Chuck assuming that Liddell was exactly the same as he was on UFC 76,88. Which is it we don't know yet, I believe it's somewhere in a middle. Besides, 4 months of training will certainly make some positive changes in Rua's game. I hope he will win. The funny thing is that Shogun always comes out as underdog (he enters the cage before his opponent), but nevertheless, he won PRIDE GP and his last 2 fights by TKO. I wouldn't underestimate his guy. He reminds me of Cro Cop, they both have been on TOP, but never got the belts in their divisions - the first one because of unbeatable Fedor, the second one because of his friendship with Wanderlei. I bet he would have fought Henderson for the belt if UFC hadn't bought PRIDE. Now the opportunity presented itself, but Machida appears to be unstoppable, so I don't know.


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## Jesy Blue (May 8, 2009)

Nick_V03 said:


> I think his gameplan should be to clinch and attempt to trip Machida to the canvas. Standing is a bad idea probably.


clinch?? you want him to come right at Machida and close with him? 

okay... if you really wanna, but it's been tried.

the only real untried tactic is get him on his back successfully; if you can get that shoot and take him down, that's the only untested part of his game. Soko took him down once, but Machida immediately rolled back to dominate position. 

Rua working BJJ from the top: that may be the only option at this point, but getting there is the hard part!


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

I mean because Shoguns clinch take downs are better than his single and double legs. That would be the general idea, to put Machida on his back from the clinch. Sokoudjou managed to do it with his judo black belt credentials, although he didn't have the ground game to capitalize and that resulted in Machida getting the sweep instantly. The question is, can Shogun do the same thing but manage to capitalize if he does indeed put Machida on his back? I'm thinking Machida will be able to avoid being tripped but we will see. I also think Shogun is the better grappler so if he does put Machida on his back, he probably can capitalize, but like I said, that is not an easy task to get him there.

I see what you're saying, The Senator. I just don't think we can assume that Shogun has brought his stand up to the next level yet. A win over Chuck Liddell isn't exactly impressive these days. Guys that have managed to beat him standing these days have gone on to lose to other guys standing easily so we will have to see before we come to a conclusion about what he brings to the table in my opinion.


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## CornBall (May 26, 2009)

this gonna be good fight mo....sho gota good rate in tha gam...so he g euff to win lik he hit chuck...


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## Anudem (Apr 22, 2007)

I really don't agree with giving Shogun a title shot right now, but at the same time its hard naming a fighter to give the title shot to, due to all the other LHW being tied up right now. While I agree that what you do outside the Octagon should help your chances at getting a title shot, I think Shogun blew that opportunity when he was subbed my Griffen. Sad to say Shogun has looked lackluster since entering the UFC (You can argue Liddell, but that was such a short fight that we don't know if the old Shogun is starting to come back, or if it was Liddell on his way out).

I may get ripped on for this, probably will but I would rather see Hendo take this fight, if he wasn't already fighting Bisping. While both him and Shogun have a two win fight streak, Hendo has been taking on higher caliber fighters in the UFC. I would also rather see Rampage take the fight but Dana and company have no issue with letting a fight stew in the name of ratings and a bigger payday (not a bad stance from a business standpoint).


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

dontazo said:


> basic... well fedors punches are basic but it works... nogs bijj is basic but he subs people... BASIC does not exist. effective or not effective... and shoguns new defence is definatly effective...


Yeah, his defense worked well against a slow Liddell that doesn't use kicks or go for the body. Fact is, his hands cover his face so much that his body is open almost the whole time. Should be interesting what his legs and body look like after Machida kicks them often. He still drops his hands when he punches, and the thing most people are impressed by with Shogun is that kick he hit chuck with while backing away, which, again, had him drop his hands. 

Shogun is going to do 1 of two things at all times:

1. Have his hands dropped when he is kicking/punching so Machida can time it perfectly

2. Keep his legs and body open for attacks as his hands are always up at his head now.

There are many mistakes Shogun still makes defensively that Machida can and most likely will exploit. Besides, Shogun probably won't be playing a defense game, he will most likely be looking to take Machida down, where his aggressive striking will do nothing but get himself rocked.


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## Jesy Blue (May 8, 2009)

Nick_V03 said:


> I mean because Shoguns clinch take downs are better than his single and double legs. That would be the general idea, to put Machida on his back from the clinch. [...] I also think Shogun is the better grappler so if he does put Machida on his back, he probably can capitalize, but like I said, that is not an easy task to get him there.


ahhhh i see what your getting at; i like it.

So, if he can get in side to clinch (what Tito couldn't do) and take him down (what Thigo couldn't do) and get on top (what Soko couldn't do) he'll have it. geez, Rua's got a mission ahead of him here, Nick (hey, look, a Mass-hole!) 

i want Machida to win, but i want the best thrown at him also to test him and prove he's the best. Rua seems to have a good way to go... but he's gonna have to overcome a lot. at least he has until october... plenty of time to learn karate and sumo defenses.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> Yeah, his defense worked well against a slow Liddell that doesn't use kicks or go for the body. Fact is, his hands cover his face so much that his body is open almost the whole time. Should be interesting what his legs and body look like after Machida kicks them often. He still drops his hands when he punches, and the thing most people are impressed by with Shogun is that kick he hit chuck with while backing away, which, again, had him drop his hands.
> 
> Shogun is going to do 1 of two things at all times:
> 
> ...


i am sure shpogun will come up with a good gameplan... he is not just gonna rush in u know


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

dontazo said:


> i am sure shpogun will come up with a good gameplan... he is not just gonna rush in u know


No, I'm sure he won't, that would be stupid. I'm not saying he's going to pull a Thiago Silva, Shogun is much better than that. However, he will still more than likely be pushing the pace, which is exactly what Machida wants.

Everyone had a game plan going into the fight with Machida, and not one, being either aggressive of defensive, has worked even the slightest.


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

Jesy Blue said:


> ahhhh i see what your getting at; i like it.
> 
> So, if he can get in side to clinch (what Tito couldn't do) and take him down (what Thigo couldn't do) and get on top (what Soko couldn't do) he'll have it. geez, Rua's got a mission ahead of him here, Nick (hey, look, a Mass-hole!)
> 
> i want Machida to win, but i want the best thrown at him also to test him and prove he's the best. Rua seems to have a good way to go... but he's gonna have to overcome a lot. at least he has until october... plenty of time to learn karate and sumo defenses.


That's why I find it unlikely that he will succeed, but if he does put him on his back, I think he can do a lot better than Sokoudjou on top and avoid the sweep. Having a better ground game than Sokoudjou and a better clinch game than Tito helps. I don't think the game plan will work, but I think it's a lot better than standing with Machida for 5 rounds. That's just my opinion.


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## CroCopPride (Jan 13, 2007)

WOOT WOOT!
if shogun is at 100%, Machida has no chance of winning
first round ko


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## Anudem (Apr 22, 2007)

CroCopPride said:


> WOOT WOOT!
> if shogun is at 100%, Machida has no chance of winning
> first round ko


So what can a 100% shogun do to Machida, that all the previous fighters failed to do?


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

Anudem said:


> So what can a 100% shogun do to Machida, that all the previous fighters failed to do?


What can a 100% Machida to do a 100% Shogun? Shogun isn't my favorite LHW so im not biased. Nothing against forrest but I think Shoguns cardio due to his knee injury, different rules, different "ring" played a major role in that fight. Shogun got choked out back in 2003 by babalu. That's it.
I don't see machida knocking him out,submitting him, or taking him down and making his arm break. Anyone can get knocked out (see rashad) but shogun has seen more strikers than rashad had. I don't know who's grappling is better but I'd say shoguns BJJ is better than machidas. So i'm going with same prediction as I said with Rampage Vs Machida before it got changed. TKO by the challenger or decision by the champion. Just my opinion...


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## Robopencil (Feb 7, 2007)

Shogun by leg lock out of nowhere!!! :thumb02:


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

I think Shogun should have fought somebody in the top 5 before getting a title shot. No use complaining about it since its already going to happen! Hopefully Shogun brings his A game so when Machida smashes him the hardcore nutthuggers won't make a lot of excuses for him!


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## AgeOfCJ24 (May 29, 2009)

This is somewhat of a good move by Dana because Shogun is coming off I guess you could say a hot win and so he probably could get some buyrates for 104. Now with TUF coming up that will generate ratings and maybe we get a contenders match for whoever wins the belt at say 110 against the champion.


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## Fedornumber1! (Jun 18, 2008)

Why Rampage why?


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## lpbigd4444 (Oct 1, 2008)

Because of all of the postings on this thread i only read the first page and skimmed some more but there seem to be a lot of people complaining about Shogun not deserving a shot at the belt. I AGREE BUT, there is literally nobody else... and I mean literally. Forrest is coming off of a loss and is tied up anyway and nobody else is even close to diserving. Rampage really wanted to fight Rashad and with them and Forrest tied up the UFC had no other options. Shogun was def a win away from deserving but he was going to be after Rampage anyway so why not just switch the order. Shogun is a big enough name and a talented enough guy to get this shot and if Rampage beats Rashad he will then be extremely deserving of the next shot. Either way I see Machida cleaning out the division so... So while I agree he isn deserving, due to circumstances I cant hate on the UFC or Shogun for making this fight.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

lpbigd4444 said:


> Because of all of the postings on this thread i only read the first page and skimmed some more but there seem to be a lot of people complaining about Shogun not deserving a shot at the belt. I AGREE BUT, there is literally nobody else... and I mean literally. Forrest is coming off of a loss and is tied up anyway and nobody else is even close to diserving. Rampage really wanted to fight Rashad and with them and Forrest tied up the UFC had no other options. Shogun was def a win away from deserving but he was going to be after Rampage anyway so why not just switch the order. Shogun is a big enough name and a talented enough guy to get this shot and if Rampage beats Rashad he will then be extremely deserving of the next shot. Either way I see Machida cleaning out the division so... So while I agree he isn deserving, due to circumstances I cant hate on the UFC or Shogun for making this fight.


But what if Machida and Rashad wins.. does this mess the division up yet again? I'm sure all the fighters won't be tied up in fights by that time, but we'll be stuck with Rashad and Machida again.

Honestly, those two will run this entire division IMO.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

rashad is not running anything. he will get brutally ko'd by rampage.


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## ZENKI1 (Apr 19, 2009)

Damn.. I was hoping this wouldnt happen. I hate this.. Shogun needs more fights.. He needs to be defined as a #1 contender without a doubt . Not jus thrown in to cash in on his name rec . Its a bad move for Shogun.


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## Mauricio Rua (May 27, 2009)

Shogun has a very good chance of winning this fight. He will definitely put up a better fight than Rashad. Rashad thinks he's a top level boxer now just because he's been getting a few KO's... he's no boxer, wtf was he doing trying to strike with Machida. He's a wrestler for a reason, and he should've utilized a wrestling gameplan. Shogun's striking on the other hand is notches higher than Rashad's and Thiago's for sure. Shogun has been doing Muay Thai since 17... and earned his BJJ Black Belt in only 4 years. Hes a very underrated wrestler. I feel like he can take Machida down at any time. But the only thing that worries me is if his cardio will be there when he fights Machida. Imagine an exhausted Shogun trying to fight an elusive Machida... I would just turn off the TV if I saw that.


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## neoseeker (Jun 16, 2007)

I agree, Shogun has probably the best chance of any of the other LHW if he comes prepared for this fight. Shogun has more tools than anyone else in the division and can switch game plan on the fly. This can confuse Machida, which is no easy task, but a possibility.


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

guy is crazy elusive


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

I'd say stick to more recent fights. Of course Machida gets tagged, everyone does. But I don't know why you posted that picture though...


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## lpbigd4444 (Oct 1, 2008)

Spoken812 said:


> But what if Machida and Rashad wins.. does this mess the division up yet again? I'm sure all the fighters won't be tied up in fights by that time, but we'll be stuck with Rashad and Machida again.
> 
> Honestly, those two will run this entire division IMO.


Then lets just hope Rampage wins... its the best we can do right now.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

i dont think that Shogun deserves this shot yet...he needs another win against a good guy....but Lyoto will still whip him.....:thumb02:



BTW...on average Machida gets hit now in the UFC once every 2.5 rounds.....stay hot....


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## DavidCaruso (May 31, 2009)

mwhite18 said:


> guy is crazy elusive


I think the octagon is made for Machida. He has much more room to be elusive compared to a boxing ring. I know he was undefeated in Pride also, but can you imagine a guy like Rampage bull charging him in a smaller ring? He'd have less space to dodge around, and pick apart his opponents.


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## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

I don't think Rampage is dodging Machida at all! What I really think is happening is that Evans pissed him the F**K off after he beat Jardine and he wants to teach him a lesson and is taking that fight personally. If he KO's Evans and Machida still has the belt he WILL fight him! 

Also, he's getting paid more to do Tuf and if Shogun happens to beat Machida, that is another fight Rampage would really want as well since he wants to avenge his brutal beating he received by Shogun back in Pride.

So in all fairness this is a WIN - WIN scenario for Page(unless he loses to Evans lol) and it's a very smart move on his part!


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## DropKicker (Apr 16, 2009)

neoseeker said:


> I agree, Shogun has probably the best chance of any of the other LHW if he comes prepared for this fight. Shogun has more tools than anyone else in the division and can switch game plan on the fly. This can confuse Machida, which is no easy task, but a possibility.



Agreed! too many people are counting out Shogun already. Let's be real here. Sure we know Machida is a fight genius and he probably looks unstopable right now. But if you break it down on how he has won against all of his past opponents. It was because his style is taylored made to exploit the text book techniques that all these "new age" wrestler/judo/bjj turned mix martial artists try to employ on him. If not that it's either an undersized BJ Penn, one dementional (Tito) or a too over confident fighter that tries to go in there to bully & outstrike Machida wrecklessly(T.Silva). I really think his weakness is the ground. Sure he may be a black belt BBJ himself but he's not in elite one. I say this because Tito almost triangle choked him to death before him being barely able to squeeze out an escape. He was seconds away from sleeping, it was tight in. And Tito is not even known for being an elite BJJ guy. Shogun on the other is known for his BJJ skills in almost having pulled off all sorts of submissions wins already. It's safe to say he's amongst the elites in that weight class when it comes to BJJ. He's no Sokoudjou! Now I don't nessacearily think Shogun will run through Machida. But he will be Machida's toughest challenge for he's very versitle in giving Machida more than just one thing to worry about. Shogun's wrestling is also underated. I belive he can take down Machida. Tito was trying all 3 rounds to take down Machida which frustrated him. Why wasn't he successful? Because he's so one demensional that Machida wasn't worried about being struck on but only focusing on not being taken down. Shogun on the other hand is also amongst the elite strikers in that weight division. Though I still think Machida will outstrike anyone including Shogun if they stand. However with this notion of knowing that he can possibally get tagged by Shogun, he'll be more cautious & concern about more things. In giving Shogun more of an opportunity to take it to the ground when Machida's off guard trying to strike & defend with Shogun's striking. Many may be comparing Shogun to T.Silva because of their Chute Boxe background, but I think Shogun's more complete & from his last fight with Liddell, more mature & patience now. He won't engage wrecklessly, its a once in a life time opportunity to get a title shot like that. So if my calculations are right though I still think Machida has the edge in winning this fight I think Shogun has the best chance because of his verstility. Heck, I'll even say it now if shogun doesnt get wreckless with Machida & sticks to a discipline gameplan in mixing up his striking to set up a take down & successfully does it. I'm going to say Shogun by either Kimura, leglock, or Kneebar in the mid rounds.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

DropKicker said:


> Agreed! too many people are counting out Shogun already. Let's be real here. Sure we know Machida is a fight genius and he probably looks unstopable right now. But if you break it down on how he has won against all of his past opponents. It was because his style is taylored made to exploit the text book techniques that all these "new age" wrestler/judo/bjj turned mix martial artists try to employ on him. If not that it's either an undersized BJ Penn, one dementional (Tito) or a too over confident fighter that tries to go in there to bully & outstrike Machida wrecklessly(T.Silva). I really think his weakness is the ground. Sure he may be a black belt BBJ himself but he's not in elite one. I say this because Tito almost triangle choked him to death before him being barely able to squeeze out an escape. He was seconds away from sleeping, it was tight in. And Tito is not even known for being an elite BJJ guy. Shogun on the other is known for his BJJ skills in almost having pulled off all sorts of submissions wins already. It's safe to say he's amongst the elites in that weight class when it comes to BJJ. He's no Sokoudjou! Now I don't nessacearily think Shogun will run through Machida. But he will be Machida's toughest challenge for he's very versitle in giving Machida more than just one thing to worry about. Shogun's wrestling is also underated. I belive he can take down Machida. Tito was trying all 3 rounds to take down Machida which frustrated him. Why wasn't he successful? Because he's so one demensional that Machida wasn't worried about being struck on but only focusing on not being taken down. Shogun on the other hand is also amongst the elite strikers in that weight division. Though I still think Machida will outstrike anyone including Shogun if they stand. However with this notion of knowing that he can possibally get tagged by Shogun, he'll be more cautious & concern about more things. In giving Shogun more of an opportunity to take it to the ground when Machida's off guard trying to strike & defend with Shogun's striking. Many may be comparing Shogun to T.Silva because of their Chute Boxe background, but I think Shogun's more complete & from his last fight with Liddell, more mature & patience now. He won't engage wrecklessly, its a once in a life time opportunity to get a title shot like that. So if my calculations are right though I still think Machida has the edge in winning this fight I think Shogun has the best chance because of his verstility. Heck, I'll even say it now if shogun doesnt get wreckless with Machida & sticks to a discipline gameplan in mixing up his striking to set up a take down & successfully does it. I'm going to say Shogun by either Kimura, leglock, or Kneebar in the mid rounds.


 
your assuming that Shogun gets him down and i just dont see that happening.....even if Shogun were to get machida down you seem to forget that Machida got his black in BJJ in 2008 clearly later than Shogun but the point is he is no slouch on the ground....how do you even make a statement that Lyoto will get subbed in the mid rounds....Shogun will be out by the end of the 1st or mid 2nd......

Tell you what cuz i dont wanna go back and forth.....why dont we just bet 10k credits head up on it right now???? I'll save this thread so you can honor your debt in October.........

Let me know since your sure but that mid round submission.....:thumb02:


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

Anibus said:


> This has potential to be a great fight. But which Shogun will show up? If Shogun is truly back to his old form, I'm really excited to see this fight happen.


shogun wants the belt, you think he's gonna lolly-gag it?! COME ON WAR SHOGUN!!


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

DavidCaruso said:


> I think the octagon is made for Machida. He has much more room to be elusive compared to a boxing ring. *I know he was undefeated in Pride also*, but can you imagine a guy like Rampage bull charging him in a smaller ring? He'd have less space to dodge around, and pick apart his opponents.


hmmm.... who are talking about here? hopefully not machida.


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## AZRAEL222 (May 31, 2009)

DropKicker said:


> Agreed! too many people are counting out Shogun already. Let's be real here. Sure we know Machida is a fight genius and he probably looks unstopable right now. But if you break it down on how he has won against all of his past opponents. It was because his style is taylored made to exploit the text book techniques that all these "new age" wrestler/judo/bjj turned mix martial artists try to employ on him. If not that it's either an undersized BJ Penn, one dementional (Tito) or a too over confident fighter that tries to go in there to bully & outstrike Machida wrecklessly(T.Silva). I really think his weakness is the ground. Sure he may be a black belt BBJ himself but he's not in elite one. I say this because Tito almost triangle choked him to death before him being barely able to squeeze out an escape. He was seconds away from sleeping, it was tight in. And Tito is not even known for being an elite BJJ guy. Shogun on the other is known for his BJJ skills in almost having pulled off all sorts of submissions wins already. It's safe to say he's amongst the elites in that weight class when it comes to BJJ. He's no Sokoudjou! Now I don't nessacearily think Shogun will run through Machida. But he will be Machida's toughest challenge for he's very versitle in giving Machida more than just one thing to worry about. Shogun's wrestling is also underated. I belive he can take down Machida. Tito was trying all 3 rounds to take down Machida which frustrated him. Why wasn't he successful? Because he's so one demensional that Machida wasn't worried about being struck on but only focusing on not being taken down. Shogun on the other hand is also amongst the elite strikers in that weight division. Though I still think Machida will outstrike anyone including Shogun if they stand. However with this notion of knowing that he can possibally get tagged by Shogun, he'll be more cautious & concern about more things. In giving Shogun more of an opportunity to take it to the ground when Machida's off guard trying to strike & defend with Shogun's striking. Many may be comparing Shogun to T.Silva because of their Chute Boxe background, but I think Shogun's more complete & from his last fight with Liddell, more mature & patience now. He won't engage wrecklessly, its a once in a life time opportunity to get a title shot like that. So if my calculations are right though I still think Machida has the edge in winning this fight I think Shogun has the best chance because of his verstility. Heck, I'll even say it now if shogun doesnt get wreckless with Machida & sticks to a discipline gameplan in mixing up his striking to set up a take down & successfully does it. I'm going to say Shogun by either Kimura, leglock, or Kneebar in the mid rounds.


Shogun has ONE submission victory in his career (he actually has more submission losses than wins) and you think he's going to take down and submit Machida who's a BJJ black belt? Come one, dude. Shogun took Chuck down twice and both times Chuck got up. Later in the round Chuck actually took him down. Shogun's kicks looked slower than Machida's, and most of his punches were of a looping motion. Plus the left he hit Chuck with could be seen coming from a mile away. Watch the fight again. Shogun didn't look THAT impressive (compare to his crappy performance vs. Coleman, of course he looked great). Besides, Shogun's cardio is a problem. 

Also, Machida looks better every fight. He's KO'd undefeated fighters back to back, and finished three of his last four fights. I just don't see Shogun taking this fight. 

Regarding Rampage, I see a lot of people saying he's going to KO Rashad. Reality is 5 out of Rampage's last 8 fights have gone the distance. He couldn't finish Hendo, he lost to Griffin, and he couldn't finish Jardine (that fight was actually pretty close). And now he's going to KO Rashad, who's faster than him? Please. Rampage's best days are behind him. He's too slow to wrestle and his ground game is nothing to brag about(Griffin dominated him on the ground). All he's got going for him is his boxing and powerful left. Out of the top three LHW he's the most vulnerable. I actually think Rashad will beat him.


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## Trevmysta (Mar 23, 2008)

This really is a win-win situation for me, both of these fighters are in my top 5.

I'd rather them not fight, but hey, it's going to be explosive.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Shogun couldnt hold chuck down, but how many people have been able to get the iceman down and keep him there? Holding Machida down if you get him there cant possibly be any more difficult then holding chuck down.


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## miguelclass (Aug 17, 2008)

AZRAEL222 said:


> Shogun has ONE submission victory in his career (he actually has more submission losses than wins) and you think he's going to take down and submit Machida who's a BJJ black belt? Come one, dude. Shogun took Chuck down twice and both times Chuck got up. Later in the round Chuck actually took him down. Shogun's kicks looked slower than Machida's, and most of his punches were of a looping motion. Plus the left he hit Chuck with could be seen coming from a mile away. Watch the fight again. Shogun didn't look THAT impressive (compare to his crappy performance vs. Coleman, of course he looked great). Besides, Shogun's cardio is a problem.
> 
> Also, Machida looks better every fight. He's KO'd undefeated fighters back to back, and finished three of his last four fights. I just don't see Shogun taking this fight.
> 
> Regarding Rampage, I see a lot of people saying he's going to KO Rashad. Reality is 5 out of Rampage's last 8 fights have gone the distance. He couldn't finish Hendo, he lost to Griffin, and he couldn't finish Jardine (that fight was actually pretty close). And now he's going to KO Rashad, who's faster than him? Please. Rampage's best days are behind him. He's too slow to wrestle and his ground game is nothing to brag about(Griffin dominated him on the ground). All he's got going for him is his boxing and powerful left. Out of the top three LHW he's the most vulnerable. I actually think Rashad will beat him.


Thank you. Everything you said here is what I have been trying to explain to people.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

*Machida vs. Shogun*

...Sounds like a good matchup but it won't be. What could Shogun possibly offer Machida that Evans didn't offer? More knockout power, speed, striking angles? Nope. Shogun has that traditional Muay Thai stance similiar to Thiago Silva's. Thiago was outclassed and put to sleep in the 1st round. Just cause Shogun KO'd Liddell shouldn't give him a shot at the belt. The division is just too deep. I like Shogun but I don't think ANY fighter in the LHW Division can beat Lyoto now. He is peaking, completely unique and hands down the most elusive and difficult fighter to hit in MMA. "He is a complete fighter"...Matt Hughes states.
...We all thought Evans would be the toughest test for Lyoto and it was completely one sided with Evans getting brutally KO'd within 2 rounds. Nobody has even come close to doing that since Evans stepped into the Octagon. Evans showed a lotta heart and a chin much better than I ever expected. 
...I personally would really like to see a second fight between Shogun & Rampage. QJ has always stated that he wants to avenge his losses. The way he put Wanderlei's lights out at UFC 92, a Shogun/Rampage fight would be perfect right now. Hell, has everybody forgotten Shogun/Griffin fight? 
...Well politics as usual. Evans beats Liddell...gets a title shot. Shogun beats Liddell now he gets a title shot. This is crazy...:confused03: Anyhow, I see Shogun missing with his strikes like everyone else has, becoming too aggressive and start chasing Lyoto and getting caught. Shogun will become another victim to the dragon by TKO or KO...:thumbsup:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

BrutalKO said:


> ...Sounds like a good matchup but it won't be. What could Shogun possibly offer Machida that Evans didn't offer? More knockout power, speed, striking angles? Nope. Shogun has that traditional Muay Thai stance similiar to Thiago Silva's. Thiago was outclassed and put to sleep in the 1st round. Just cause Shogun KO'd Liddell shouldn't give him a shot at the belt. The division is just too deep. I like Shogun but I don't think ANY fighter in the LHW Division can beat Lyoto now. He is peaking, completely unique and hands down the most elusive and difficult fighter to hit in MMA. "He is a complete fighter"...Matt Hughes states.
> ...We all thought Evans would be the toughest test for Lyoto and it was completely one sided with Evans getting brutally KO'd within 2 rounds. Nobody has even come close to doing that since Evans stepped into the Octagon. Evans showed a lotta heart and a chin much better than I ever expected.
> ...I personally would really like to see a second fight between Shogun & Rampage. QJ has always stated that he wants to avenge his losses. The way he put Wanderlei's lights out at UFC 92, a Shogun/Rampage fight would be perfect right now. Hell, has everybody forgotten Shogun/Griffin fight?
> ...Well politics as usual. Evans beats Liddell...gets a title shot. Shogun beats Liddell now he gets a title shot. This is crazy...:confused03: Anyhow, I see Shogun missing with his strikes like everyone else has, becoming too aggressive and start chasing Lyoto and getting caught. Shogun will become another victim to the dragon by TKO or KO...:thumbsup:


 
This sumerizes prety muh exactly what I see happening.........:thumbsup: I would be intrested to see Anderson Silva fight Lyoto....but we are in a time right now where no one will beat him........


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## Shogun_Is_Champ (Jun 17, 2007)

AZRAEL222 said:


> Shogun has ONE submission victory in his career (he actually has more submission losses than wins) and you think he's going to take down and submit Machida who's a BJJ black belt? Come one, dude. Shogun took Chuck down twice and both times Chuck got up. Later in the round Chuck actually took him down. Shogun's kicks looked slower than Machida's, and most of his punches were of a looping motion. Plus the left he hit Chuck with could be seen coming from a mile away. Watch the fight again. Shogun didn't look THAT impressive (compare to his crappy performance vs. Coleman, of course he looked great). Besides, Shogun's cardio is a problem.
> 
> Also, Machida looks better every fight. He's KO'd undefeated fighters back to back, and finished three of his last four fights. I just don't see Shogun taking this fight.
> 
> Regarding Rampage, I see a lot of people saying he's going to KO Rashad. Reality is 5 out of Rampage's last 8 fights have gone the distance. He couldn't finish Hendo, he lost to Griffin, and he couldn't finish Jardine (that fight was actually pretty close). And now he's going to KO Rashad, who's faster than him? Please. Rampage's best days are behind him. He's too slow to wrestle and his ground game is nothing to brag about(Griffin dominated him on the ground). All he's got going for him is his boxing and powerful left. Out of the top three LHW he's the most vulnerable. I actually think Rashad will beat him.


Shogun is a BJJ black belt too. And he has just as many Sub wins as he has losses, you can't count the one against Babalu because in that org. you couldn't throw strikes on the ground, which isn't legit MMA. And if the left he through came from a mile away why couldn't Chuck see it?


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

no point in arguing. u guys are on machidas elusive jock, but its ok. just hang on a little bit, when shogun rips his knee of, you'll be jumping on shoguns nuts once again, its just a matter of time


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

dontazo said:


> no point in arguing. u guys are on machidas elusive d|ck, but its ok. just hang on a little bit, when shogun rips his knee of, you'll be jumping on shoguns nuts once again, its just a matter of time


 


BET ME.....!!!!!!!:dunno:


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> BET ME.....!!!!!!!:dunno:


can i get in on this?


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

dontazo said:


> no point in arguing. u guys are on machidas elusive d|ck, but its ok. just hang on a little bit, when shogun rips his knee of, you'll be jumping on shoguns nuts once again, its just a matter of time





coldcall420 said:


> BET ME.....!!!!!!!:dunno:





mwhite18 said:


> can i get in on this?


 
it appears that Dontazo is still pissed so really it was for him but if he doesnt step up I will take your action....!!!!


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## Shogun_Is_Champ (Jun 17, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> it appears that Dontazo is still pissed so really it was for him but if he doesnt step up I will take your action....!!!!


I'll bet you. I like how soon as Machida wins the championship, 99 percent of everyone on the forum has him as their fav fighter and have avvys and sigs of him. You guys bandwagon WAYYY too much.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Shogun_Is_Champ said:


> I'll bet you. I like how soon as Machida wins the championship, 99 percent of everyone on the forum has him as their fav fighter and have avvys and sigs of him. You guys bandwagon WAYYY too much.


 

for your information Ive been reppin lyoto since he got to the UFC....just cuz i noticed talent way back and others are now on the band wagon dont address everyone that way......:thumbsup:


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

Shogun_Is_Champ said:


> Shogun is a BJJ black belt too. And he has just as many Sub wins as he has losses, you can't count the one against Babalu because in that org. you couldn't throw strikes on the ground, which isn't legit MMA. And if the left he through came from a mile away why couldn't Chuck see it?


Because Chuck is old and his reaction time has slowed down considerably along with his good chin now becoming very weak. I'm not sure how you can defend such a sketchy left hand. I'm confident that Machida would have made Shogun pay for that. Shogun better put as much effort as possible into bringing this fight to the mat in my opinion. I don't think it will be enough anyways but we will see.


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## Jesy Blue (May 8, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> for your information Ive been reppin lyoto since he got to the UFC....just cuz i noticed talent way back and others are now on the band wagon dont address everyone that way......:thumbsup:


ditto here, mind you i'm new on this board, but i've been on board since before the Soko fight.


ps: nice new "Ryu" avatar, CC!


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

when shogun beats machida u will be saying that u were shoguns fan for the whole time...

coldcall420


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## DropKicker (Apr 16, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> your assuming that Shogun gets him down and i just dont see that happening.....even if Shogun were to get machida down you seem to forget that Machida got his black in BJJ in 2008 clearly later than Shogun but the point is he is no slouch on the ground....how do you even make a statement that Lyoto will get subbed in the mid rounds....Shogun will be out by the end of the 1st or mid 2nd......
> 
> Tell you what cuz i dont wanna go back and forth.....why dont we just bet 10k credits head up on it right now???? I'll save this thread so you can honor your debt in October.........
> 
> Let me know since your sure but that mid round submission.....:thumb02:


Hold up!!! You're making it out as if Im already jumping the gun. I also too stated that I still think Machida still has the better odds in beating Shogun. But being that I'm a "true" Shogun fan, I truely believe he won't slack off for this once in a life time opportunity to win the UFC title. He'll train hard & be prepared for this fight. I'm just backing up my boy with facts on how he can pull off a win. Because too many people are counting him out already. I also said if he deciudes to strike with Machida he will lose. Machida's just too elusive & right now I don't think anyone can out strike him except for the likes of Anderson Silva maybe. I said "if" Shogun stays patient & shoots in at the right time for a take down in the mid rounds he can possibly sub Machida. Remember now the key word here is "if" not "will". And why I say "mid rounds", because Shogun will have to stand & trade cautiously with Machida first to throw him off guard before the unexpected take down attempt. Yes I understand Machida won't gas ever so there's no point in waiting until the last 2 rounds for him to tire. And also for the fact that Shogun's cardio is still suspect so I'm saying he has to attempt the suprise take down in either the 2nd or 3rd round when he's still fresh & got energy left in him. But we've seen him in 10 min rounds @ Pride & still kick ass, so he has potential to have good cardio by fight time. We should'nt count him out yet. Why would I say Shogun could possibly pull off a submission you ask?!? Oh yeah I also mention, I know Machida is also a black belt in BJJ. But Shogun is light years ahead of him in the art, and has also fought tough competition ultilizing it on the gorund. But now can you honestly say that Machida has already fought & beaten an opponent with a legit BJJ background other than a undersized fat BJ penn & a wreckless T. Silva that didnt even attempt a ground game with him?? no!! That area has not been exposed yet. Oh wait Tito did it! And he aint even known for being a BJJ guy. You can't deny that fact that Machida was that close (Seconds!) to sleeping when Tito had that triangle locked in deep! Just imagine what Shogun could pull out the ass if he had Machida on the ground. You know it & I know it that Shogun has more arsenals on the ground than just a Tito Ortiz triangle choke that almost put Machida to sleep! Remember now Shogun aint no "Sokoudjou" so don't expect Machida to be looking so good if it goes to the ground. As for your offer? Sorry man I'm still kind of new to this forum so you're going to have to explain to me the credits part. I don't know what they are. But I'll take any other offer under my conditions. They have to hit the ground. Machida will not overwhelm Shogun on the ground. Shogun will get submission attempts if on the ground. Shogun can possibily win via submission because he's that much better on the ground. Remeber now the key word is "if". I'm not concluding nothing yet. I'm just backing up my boy Shogun because too many people are too quick to judge & count him out so early like he's no competition to Machida. Yes I know Machida aint no one dementional 40 yr old counter punching guy with a mohawk but you also gotta admit Shogun damn sure as hell looked good beating up a guy like that huh?...


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Shogun vs Machida-

Machida wins this with crisper striking and good take down defense. If the fight goes to the ground it goes to the ground with Machida in a dominant position. Machida seems to use his Muay Thai training to better understand and fight Muay Thai fighters with his karate style versus actually using Muay Thai striking. 

Granted Tito almost submitted Machida and he isn't known for his BJJ. Tito couldn't get top position on Machida and I don't see Shogun doing it either. Shogun's BJJ was outdone by a Forrest's BJJ and work ethic. I can see Machida doing it as well. I don't know how anyone can say Shogun's BJJ is "Light years" ahead of Machida's BJJ. We haven't seen it to know either way. His BJJ credentials and training partners lead me to believe their BJJ is comparable.

Machida is also more disciplined than Shogun. Machida shows up consistently with the cardio to fight. It is anyone's guess as to what version of Shogun will show up for a fight. 

Shogun is a wild striker with suspect takedown ability due to multiple knee surgeries. Without the ability to throw soccer kicks in the UFC I don't see Shogun doing a whole lot in the sport. A lot of fighter's victories in Pride were because Pride didn't have a lot of well rounded MMA fighters at the time (no one did). The UFC has evolved the sport well past Pride competition with very few exceptions.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

DropKicker said:


> Hold up!!! You're making it out as if Im already jumping the gun. I also too stated that I still think Machida still has the better odds in beating Shogun. But being that I'm a "true" Shogun fan, I truely believe he won't slack off for this once in a life time opportunity to win the UFC title. He'll train hard & be prepared for this fight. I'm just backing up my boy with facts on how he can pull off a win. Because too many people are counting him out already. I also said if he deciudes to strike with Machida he will lose. Machida's just too elusive & right now I don't think anyone can out strike him except for the likes of Anderson Silva maybe. I said "if" Shogun stays patient & shoots in at the right time for a take down in the mid rounds he can possibly sub Machida. Remember now the key word here is "if" not "will". And why I say "mid rounds", because Shogun will have to stand & trade cautiously with Machida first to throw him off guard before the unexpected take down attempt. Yes I understand Machida won't gas ever so there's no point in waiting until the last 2 rounds for him to tire. And also for the fact that Shogun's cardio is still suspect so I'm saying he has to attempt the suprise take down in either the 2nd or 3rd round when he's still fresh & got energy left in him. But we've seen him in 10 min rounds @ Pride & still kick ass, so he has potential to have good cardio by fight time. We should'nt count him out yet. Why would I say Shogun could possibly pull off a submission you ask?!? Oh yeah I also mention, I know Machida is also a black belt in BJJ. But Shogun is light years ahead of him in the art, and has also fought tough competition ultilizing it on the gorund. But now can you honestly say that Machida has already fought & beaten an opponent with a legit BJJ background other than a undersized fat BJ penn & a wreckless T. Silva that didnt even attempt a ground game with him?? no!! That area has not been exposed yet. Oh wait Tito did it! And he aint even known for being a BJJ guy. You can't deny that fact that Machida was that close (Seconds!) to sleeping when Tito had that triangle locked in deep! Just imagine what Shogun could pull out the ass if he had Machida on the ground. You know it & I know it that Shogun has more arsenals on the ground than just a Tito Ortiz triangle choke that almost put Machida to sleep! Remember now Shogun aint no "Sokoudjou" so don't expect Machida to be looking so good if it goes to the ground. As for your offer? Sorry man I'm still kind of new to this forum so you're going to have to explain to me the credits part. *I don't know what they are. But I'll take any other offer under my conditions. They have to hit the ground. Machida will not overwhelm Shogun on the ground.* Shogun will get submission attempts if on the ground. Shogun can possibily win via submission because he's that much better on the ground. Remeber now the key word is "if". I'm not concluding nothing yet. I'm just backing up my boy Shogun because too many people are too quick to judge & count him out so early like he's no competition to Machida. Yes I know Machida aint no one dementional 40 yr old counter punching guy with a mohawk but you also gotta admit Shogun damn sure as hell looked good beating up a guy like that huh?...


 
get over the freakin triangle......they were both slippery it was a last second desperation move by tito anyone that has ever practiced a triangle prob could have pulled that.....IT DIDNT WORK......

Also you speak of Shogun as having light yrs of experience on Lyoto as far as BJJ.....FTR.....Shogun has submitted as many people as he has been submitted by.......U know "utilizing it against tough competion" on the ground as you say......

Plus you speak of this attacking or shooting in in the third round.....Brother your boy is getting K/o'd by the middle of the second........

Shogun beat Chuck...big deal.....LOL you wanna bet but only if the fight goes your way......they have to hit the ground...lol....thats not a bet thats stacking the odds..in what you think is your favor...to me if they go to the ground Shogun is in just as much danger...

credits are like cash you can bet them donate them...Im challanging you to bet 5k credits you have to pay me if Shogun losses and i have to pay you 5k...they would be donated into whichever winners respective account....but not if your saying they have to hit the ground in order for the bet to take affect......:thumb02:

if you wanted to bet you have 5k credits..........


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

Just because shogun hasn't submitted many on the ground it doesn't mean he's not better than machida there. He's taken 2 fights to decision, and KO'ed the rest. It's like talking about a football team that doesn't kick many fgs but scores 5 TDs a game.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

mwhite18 said:


> Just because shogun hasn't submitted many on the ground it doesn't mean he's not better than machida there. He's taken 2 fights to decision, and KO'ed the rest. It's like talking about a football team that doesn't kick many fgs but scores 5 TDs a game.


well we've seen how people who have tried to score touchdowns on lyoto have faired.....better hope to your analogy that Shogun can kick alot of filedgoals against a guy that scores touchdowns with ease..........:thumbsup:


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> well we've seen how people who have tried to score touchdowns on lyoto have faired.....better hope to your analogy that Shogun can kick alot of filedgoals against a guy that scores touchdowns with ease..........:thumbsup:


hmm.. shoguns KO to Win is 15/18...lyoto is 5/15.. think shogun scores his tds a lot more often :thumbsup:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

mwhite18 said:


> hmm.. shoguns KO to Win is 15/18...lyoto is 5/15.. think shogun scores his tds a lot more often :thumbsup:


 
I dont understand why K/O's to wins has much to do with takedowns........Maybe shogun scores more takedowns...what that has to do with K/O's im not sure(maybe Im missing somthing)...

The point is your boy is gonna have to get inside and he will attack to do that and thats exactly what Lyoto wants.......:confused02:


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## DropKicker (Apr 16, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> get over the freakin triangle......they were both slippery it was a last second desperation move by tito anyone that has ever practiced a triangle prob could have pulled that.....IT DIDNT WORK......
> 
> Also you speak of Shogun as having light yrs of experience on Lyoto as far as BJJ.....FTR.....Shogun has submitted as many people as he has been submitted by.......U know "utilizing it against tough competion" on the ground as you say......
> 
> ...



Check it homeboi... you're the one thats so confident in Shogun getting KO'ed by the 2nd... I'm even giving Machida a slight edge in this fight to win too.. so why would I bet you evenly when I should be getting a 2/1 odds..maybe even a 3/1 odd.. if you & everybody & their moms is already counting out Shogun by what?!? 2nd round Ko?..  You should be happy I'm even suggesting at least they hit the ground first...if Shogun can't get a submission win than you win all my credits I only have 5000 since im new here...its not that bad of a deal if you're so confident in Machida...but like I said they have to hit the ground first...and not just a quick sprawl too... it has to be literally on the ground engaging in some jitz at least...but you know since you're so sure of a 2nd round KO by Machida..why dont we make it more interesting...2500 goes to me if they hit the ground since you're so sure shogun wont even be able to take machida down...this should be a freebie for me since you;re so sure....while in some jitz for every submission attempt Shogun can attempt..1000 goes to me... so you better hope shogun doesnt go from sub to sub cus you know he has that kind of ground skills... are you scared yet?... if not than let's do it... you've got nothing to lose...I've only 5000 in my credits too so you'll empty me out if Machida either KOs Shogun quickly like you said or Shogun cant get a submission win. But remember now.. it's only 5k for me if I lose on my part...My conditions are simple they just gotta hit teh ground into some jitz...which would be 2500 to me first... than if Shogun cant get a submission win you win all my 5k credits... but like i said for every submission attempt I get 1000...  you're rich in credits you've nothing to lose come see me... and you have to give me these odds... if not than you'll have to give me a 3/1 odds...me 5k you 15k...win or lose whichever or however way....come see me homeslice!


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

DropKicker said:


> Check it homeboi... you're the one thats so confident in Shogun getting KO'ed by the 2nd... I'm even giving Machida a slight edge in this fight to win too.. so why would I bet you evenly when I should be getting a 2/1 odds..maybe even a 3/1 odd.. if you & everybody & their moms is already counting out Shogun by what?!? 2nd round Ko?..  You should be happy I'm even suggesting at least they hit the ground first...if Shogun can't get a submission win than you win all my credits I only have 5000 since im new here...its not that bad of a deal if you're so confident in Machida...but like I said they have to hit the ground first...and not just a quick sprawl too... it has to be literally on the ground engaging in some jitz at least...but you know since you're so sure of a 2nd round KO by Machida..why dont we make it more interesting...2500 goes to me if they hit the ground in some jitz for every submission attempt Shogun can get.. So everytime Shogun attempts a submission 1000 goes to me... you better hope shogun doesnt go from sub to sub cus you know he has that kind of ground skills... are you scared yet?... if not than let's do it... you've got nothing to lose...I've only 5000 in my credits too so you'll empty me out if Machida either KOs Shogun quickly like you said or Shogun cant get a submission win. But remember now.. it's only 5k for me if I lose on my part...My conditions are simple they just gotta hit teh ground into some jitz... thats all if Shogun cant get a submission win you win all my 5k credits... but like i said for every submission attempt I get 1000...  you're rich in credits you've nothing to lose come see me... and you have to give me these odds... if not than you'll have to give me a 3/1 odds...me 5k you 15k...win or lose whichever or however way....come see me homeslice!


 
Thats a joke dude...they have to hit the ground......lol...so if lyoto just K/o'd him right out the rip i wouldnt win my bet.....your crazy....

BTW....33k credits aint alot....there are people here with over a million.......i dont understand why i should be happy you suggest they hit the ground first......i dont care about the ground where as you seem to feel thats the only way Shogun can win this fight...i havent even gotten into his cardio yet........Christ he was submitted by Forrest and sacve the knee crap cuz I dont wanna hear it....

its a fight when you bet you bet on the outcome you dont script the bet to be sure something happens that may favor your fighter in your opinion....why would you get a lopsided advantage.........cuz you need it?????:confused02:


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## DropKicker (Apr 16, 2009)

Coldcall420... can I ask you something?... were you perhaps an iceman worshipper?... I mean I can understand if someone you idolized got buried & put away forever... than I'd probably hate the guy that did that to him too...

dude like I said if you're so confident you should just give me the advantage... why would i call it even down the line when Even me myself got Machida slightly edging it out with a win here. I sure hope you dont bet & think like the way you do with real money as you do with credits...


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

DropKicker said:


> Coldcall420... can I ask you something?... were you perhaps an iceman worshipper?... I mean can understand if someone you idolized got buried & put away forever... than I'd probably hate the guy that did that to him too...


 
pretty much everyone was or still is an ICEMAN fan.....for the record...LOL...Shogun didnt put chucks career away forever...rashad took care of that.......

No my boy has and will be machida.......just bet if your so sure!!!!!


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

DropKicker said:


> Coldcall420... can I ask you something?... were you perhaps an iceman worshipper?... I mean can understand if someone you idolized got buried & put away forever... than I'd probably hate the guy that did that to him too...


Man.. I guess it's just impossible to like Machida more then Shogun and believe that Machida will beat Shogun huh. There has to be a hidden meaning to all of it huh?

I love Shogun waaaaaaaaay more then I like Machida, but I agree that Machida will probably KO him in the second.

I'm a Rashad fan first btw.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Spoken812 said:


> Man.. I guess it's just impossible to like Machida more then Shogun and believe that Machida will beat Shogun huh. There has to be a hidden meaning to all of it huh?
> 
> I love Shogun waaaaaaaaay more then I like Machida, but I agree that Machida will probably KO him in the second.
> 
> I'm a Rashad fan first btw.


 
appreciate the rep on the sig tried to hit you back but i gotta spread some love......I knew this would become my job till october....you know defending my boy like i did against everyone he has fought so far.........this is just another debate with a obvious outcome......Props to Composure he was up late workin on that sig......:thumb02:


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## DropKicker (Apr 16, 2009)

Spoken812 said:


> Man.. I guess it's just impossible to like Machida more then Shogun and believe that Machida will beat Shogun huh. There has to be a hidden meaning to all of it huh?
> 
> I love Shogun waaaaaaaaay more then I like Machida, but I agree that Machida will probably KO him in the second.
> 
> I'm a Rashad fan first btw.




Sorry Spoken, but I myself love Machida too. Like I said before... I even have Machida winning this fight. But I'm just trying to put out the facts that Shogun's got a chance at least so Im not counting him out just yet. I feel its not so lopsided as everyone else is saying the fight will go to Machida dominating in fashion. Shawn Tompkins said it best. If you press at Lyoto & put him on his back he aint god. And if you look at all his fights no one has been able to do that yet. Let alone no one has had the tools & right game plan to do so yet. Shogun is the most versed for any 205'er he's faced imo. I belive he can pull the upset if certain things come together in his fight plan as Ive mentioned..


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

DropKicker said:


> Sorry Spoken, but I myself love Machida too. Like I said before... I even have Machida winning this fight. But I'm just trying to put out the facts that Shogun's got a chance at least so Im not counting him out just yet. I feel its not so lopsided as everyone else is saying the fight will go to Machida dominating in fashion. Shawn Tompkins said it best. If you press at Lyoto & put him on his back he aint god. And if you look at all his fights no one has been able to do that yet. Let alone no one has had the tools & right game plan to do so yet. Shogun is the most versed for any 205'er he's faced imo. I belive he can pull the upset if certain things come together in his fight plan as Ive mentioned..


No one has been able to do that....thats what Lyoto wants......


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## DropKicker (Apr 16, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> No one has been able to do that....thats what Lyoto wants......


You're right everyone's gameplans have failed. But who's gotten the closest to beating Machida or at least putting him in danger? Love him or hate him.. Tito did.. And it was on the ground. One after another the gameplans will get better & better. 

Coldcall420 I got something for you to look at...



tell me that was a close one!!! he almost died


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

DropKicker said:


> You're right everyone's gameplans have failed. But who's gotten the closest to beating Machida or at least putting him in danger? Love him or hate him.. Tito did.. And it was on the ground. One after another the gameplans will get better & better.
> 
> Coldcall420 I got something for you to look at...
> 
> ...


 
So do you just wanna do a little 2500 credit bet to pop your cherry??????

Wow.....lyotos ground game is so bad even Tito almost beat him....the wresteler that lyoto threw around the cage...then machida was gonna walk through him...yeah well we all saw that....then rashad never been K/O'd beaten heavy weights went night night before the end of the second and shogun with 2 submission wins regarldess of how many wars is gonna just step up and beat him after he beat Chuck Liddell....who he beat right after Forrest subbed him........

These scenerios are great....everyone i come up with puts the dragon in the W column....were talking about a guy that averages getting hit once every 2.5 rounds.........he might not even get hit against Shogun(joking obviously)....but I think they were saying rashad hit him twice the whole fight.......lol shogun shooting in in the mid rounds.....lyoto will be walking back to the dressing room by the 3rd round right after he finishes his victory speech with Joe......


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

LOL...Randomus *Neg repped* me for what randomus???? reppin my boy your a bitch read the rules on rep and why its given..........now i shall hunt you down and crush your rep with the first neg rep i've given in months.......

get over it and post on this thread if your gonna neg rep my post......Bitch:thumbsdown:


Sorry for the double post.....i just hate gettin neg repped by some one not even in this discussion that doesnt leave there name.......


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

coldcall320 wow ... u really love machida dont u?
machida is great with defending straight punches but he usually does bad against overhands and hooks... just watch nakamura fight . shogun loves to rush in with his right hand ala fedor. he will stun machida take him down and tko him via flying gnp


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

dontazo said:


> coldcall320 wow ... u really love machida dont u?
> machida is great with defending straight punches but he usually does bad against overhands and hooks... just watch nakamura fight . shogun loves to rush in with his right hand ala fedor. he will stun machida take him down and tko him via flying gnp


 
I love you too D.....so what do you say 5k???:confused02:


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

dontazo said:


> coldcall320 wow ... u really love machida dont u?
> machida is great with defending straight punches but he usually does bad against overhands and hooks... just watch nakamura fight . shogun loves to rush in with his right hand ala fedor. he will stun machida take him down and tko him via flying gnp


Did you just say someone will beat Machida by launching forward? Isn't that what Machida excels against?


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## Shogun_Is_Champ (Jun 17, 2007)

Spoken812 said:


> Did you just say someone will beat Machida by launching forward? Isn't that what Machida excels against?


Everyone said that Chuck was such a good counter striker and not to rush him, look what happened. Everyone says Machida excels when people rush him, but who has ever rushed him? NOBODY! Thiago didn't even rush at all, he played it soft, no one has gone beserk and put the pressure on yet.


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

Why do you keep using Chuck Liddell as your point? You didn't even respond to my last counter (no pun intended) towards you using him. He's a counter puncher that has slowed down considerably with a lack of reaction time and chin due to his old age. That's why Shogun was able to beat him so easily in my opinion. Machida is a whole different ball game for Shogun and I wouldn't use his win over Liddell as an example on why hes going to beat Machida. I think if Shogun rushes Machida, he will get dropped multiple times because I don't think his striking is that good and that is not exactly a good game plan against an accomplished counter striker like Machida who is still in his prime.

Machida is faster than Liddell, has better striking, is more precise, and gets hit a lot less, and that's even comparing him to a Chuck Liddell in his prime I would say, and like I said, Shogun fought an old slower Liddell. I think people should think about that before they compare these fights. That's just a thought.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Shogun_Is_Champ said:


> Everyone said that Chuck was such a good counter striker and not to rush him, look what happened. Everyone says Machida excels when people rush him, but who has ever rushed him? NOBODY! Thiago didn't even rush at all, he played it soft, no one has gone beserk and put the pressure on yet.


Shogun didn't go "beserk" on Liddell. The pace wasn't even hard, it was an average pace with a takedown from each guy.

Also, that punch that put Liddell down was:

1. Sloppy
2. Came from a mile away
3. left Shogun's hand down, as well as off balance.

He did this against Liddell, a man that has not only lost his chin, but his ability to move, counter, and time like he used to. That isn't the Liddell that beat on Couture in the third fight, this is the Liddell that is retiring as he does not have what it takes to beat any high level fighters anymore.

If Shogun makes those mistakes when going against Machida, he's going to be in a world of hurt as Machida's entire game is picking apart his opponents mistakes and making little to none himself. He'll be able to exploit the many holes in Shogun's striking, including his very predictable side to side head movement, the fact that he drops his hands when he does any attack, the fact that when he is covering up he leaves his whole body open for attacks, etc.

The only thing Shogun has going for him in this fight is ground fighting. Even then, let's look at Shogun's record:

Wins via Submission - 1
Losses via submission - 2.

One of his submission losses was to Forrest, and his only submission win was against Randleman.

Seriously, why should any Machida fan fear his ground game? Machida has really good BJJ and has amazing sweeps and control. Not to mention the fact that Shogun has to get him down to even try and submit him, good luck with that one.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Shogun is going to lose this fight. Badly.

He's a sloppy striker, who is good on the ground. Machida, as well, is good on the ground, only Machida has great striking,


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

Michael Carson said:


> Shogun didn't go "beserk" on Liddell. The pace wasn't even hard, it was an average pace with a takedown from each guy.
> 
> Also, that punch that put Liddell down was:
> 
> ...


Good post, it seems like people are really clinging to Shoguns victory over a guy that shouldn't be in the game anymore. I'm actually surprised even an out of his prime Liddell got finished after such a sketchy left hand.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> Shogun didn't go "beserk" on Liddell. The pace wasn't even hard, it was an average pace with a takedown from each guy.
> 
> Also, that punch that put Liddell down was:
> 
> ...


WOW wow . sloppy u say? so just because it is overhand right it is sloppy ??? are u kidding me ? have u been training muay thai or some sort of stand up ? fedor uses almost exactly same punching style as shogun did against liddell it is very very effective in mma. shoguns punch was excelent when he swiched legs and rushed in! it was beautifull ! ok shogun does not have lot of sub wins but cmon his bjj is awesome he bitched arona on the ground , IMO after babalu he has the best mma bjj in lhw ... by best i mean effective , bjj is not only subbing its transitioning. shogun has one of the best transitions in whole mma. anyway 
col. 10g? lets do 10g! lol. i cant wait for shogun to smash machida just to shut up all machida ball huggers


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

dontazo said:


> WOW wow . sloppy u say? so just because it is overhand right it is sloppy ??? are u kidding me ? have u been training muay thai or some sort of stand up ? fedor uses almost exactly same punching style as shogun did against liddell it is very very effective in mma. shoguns punch was excelent when he swiched legs and rushed in! it was beautifull ! ok shogun does not have lot of sub wins but cmon his bjj is awesome he bitched arona on the ground , IMO after babalu he has the best mma bjj in lhw ... by best i mean effective , bjj is not only subbing its transitioning. shogun has one of the best transitions in whole mma. anyway
> col. 10g? lets do 10g! lol. i cant wait for shogun to smash machida just to shut up all machida ball huggers


Shogun's striking IS sloppy, so is Fedor's. They both have sloppy striking. They throw wide, looping punches and leave their face uncovered, as well as swind wild often. It is SLOPPPY.

His punch against Liddell was a SLOPPY strike that left Shogun wide open. The only reason why he did not get caught himself or miss is because Liddell is an almost 40 year old man who has lost his speed, movement, timing, and chin. If Shogun tries that with Machida, a guy who is in top form, whos entire game is based on TIMING and exploiting the mistakes of his opponenets, which Shogun makes A LOT of when he is striking, he's going to be in big trouble.

Shogun's striking mistakes:

1. Keeps his hands down when he punches

2. His only defense is side to side head movement which is easy to time, as well as keeping his hands up, leaving his body open to kicks.

3. He throws wide, looping punches.

4. Takes risks often, which is not going to do any good against a guy who EXPLOITS PEOPLE THAT MAKE MISTAKES, and taking risks will not help this.

5. Is an aggressive fighter, which is tailor made for a counter fighter that moves like Machida, who also times better than most in MMA.

Right off the top of my head, 5 huge mistakes Shogun has in his striking game that can be easily exploited by someone with the talent that Machida has.

Yes, Shogun's transitions did so well as Forrest was controlling him from the top, then subbed him in the third round. Also, it was so cool how he couldn't even submit Coleman.

Seriously, Shogun is a really good fighter, but he makes far too many mistakes and doesn't have the skills to do much to Machida.

Also, I don't "hug Machida's balls", I've been a huge fan of his for a long, long time now, can look at my past posts, I have ALWAYS been a fan, even before the Tito fight or anything. However, fan or not, if you break down the style of these two, Machida has advantages in most areas, with a huge advantage in the striking.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

thats why fedor ko'd best mma "boxer" in AA
anyway thats the last post i will do in this thread. 
i will just sit back and enjoy shogun smashing machida


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

dontazo said:


> thats why fedor ko'd best mma "boxer" in AA
> anyway thats the last post i will do in this thread.
> i will just sit back and enjoy shogun smashing machida


Lol, yeah, I'd sit back too if I had no clue what I am talking about.

As far as "Fedor Ko'd AA", Arlovski was winning that fight up until Arlovski made a mistake, which Machida doesn't do often. Fedor is Fedor, someone makes a mistake, he pounces on it and wins the fight, just like Machida. The only difference is Shogun makes more mistakes striking than Arlovski does.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Shogun_Is_Champ said:


> Everyone said that Chuck was such a good counter striker and not to rush him, look what happened. Everyone says Machida excels when people rush him, but who has ever rushed him? NOBODY! Thiago didn't even rush at all, he played it soft, no one has gone beserk and put the pressure on yet.


 

Unfortunately now days knocking out chuck liddell doesnt count for much....I cant believe I just wrote that......sorry Chuck......


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Unpredictability often wins fights. Shogun hits hard regardless of how "sloppy" you guys think he is. He's training really hard, I don't see what you guys want him to do. Do you want him to quit MMA just because he hasn't been as impressive as Machida? Some people accusing Rampage of ducking Machida because he has been so amazing, and now Shogun takes the fight, and people rip him up.
I'm sure he is stepping it up working on solving the problems he will be faced with. Of course you can only judge fighters by their past fights, but to the people who are disecting this to ridiculous points, and saying he has NO chance, It's just incorrect. Both have very capable bodies and are in the prime of their lives, I'm stoked for this fight. 

BTW, even though I typed all of this from shoguns nuts, I'm still betting on machida haha.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

CroCopPride said:


> WOOT WOOT!
> if shogun is at 100%, Machida has no chance of winning
> first round ko


...HUH?...and Rashad Evans wasn't at 100% when he fought Machida? Give me a break. Evans looked as ready as ever. I think Shogun at 300% still wouldn't beat Machida. Styles make fights and Lyoto is making the top fighters look like amatures. Shogun loses to Griffin. Struggles badly with Coleman. Now since he beat good ol' Chuckie, now he'll KO Machida? No chance. Machida will KO Shogun. How do you hit a target you simply can't find?? Saying Machida has no chance against Shogun is like saying Fedor has no chance against Barnett. Get real.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

dontazo said:


> no point in arguing. u guys are on machidas elusive jock, but its ok. just hang on a little bit, when shogun rips his knee of, you'll be jumping on shoguns nuts once again, its just a matter of time


...So Lyoto doesn't have good knees?? Right. He fought one of his oponents and threw 7 straight brutal knees in the Thai clinch and dropped the dude. Everything Shogun has Machida has as well and the most important thing that Shogun does not possess...Machida is the best in the game at hit and not get hit? Isn't that the name of the game?


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## Scorch (Apr 2, 2007)

They should hype up Shogun from Pride. Kinda like they did with Royce Gracie, hyping him up from the old UFCs.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

dontazo said:


> coldcall320 wow ... u really love machida dont u?
> machida is great with defending straight punches but he usually does bad against overhands and hooks... just watch nakamura fight . shogun loves to rush in with his right hand ala fedor. he will stun machida take him down and tko him via flying gnp


What's not to love about Machida? He has one of the best stat lines in all of MMA and he is a disiplined, humble guy. "Lyoto Machida is a TRUE martial artist'...Joe Rogan. He is the total package and them some but some people will refuse to believe in him for whatever reason...I have no clue. I guess when he defends the belt 4 or 5 more times maybe you nerds will finally get it.


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> Unfortunately now days knocking out chuck liddell doesnt count for much....I cant believe I just wrote that......sorry Chuck......


Well if thats the case..then Machida knocking rashad out doesnt mean much to me besides the fact he was undefeated. Rashad isnt that great of a striker..only "striker" worth mentioning that he beat was forrest since chuck is "washed up".

I'm not a machida fan nor a hater. I just choose not to join the Machida Sac Buffet so quick. He doesn't have to beat God to impress me..he already has. But he hasnt impressed me to the point where I think Shoguns and rampages stand "no chance past the 3rd". I think its cool he brings in karate, a levelhead , and drinks his piss..but he can be beat. 


Lets look at his TKO/KO victims. Rashad Evans, Thiago Silva, Dimitri Wanderley, Stephan Bonnar, and Rich Franklin. Rashad- See Above. Thiago-Impressive only because he was undefeated, his claim to fame was Houston Alexanderraise01: Dimitri Wanderley-Yeah whoever he is. Stephan Bonnar- Mediocre LHW. Only known for TUF finale. Rich Franklin- Impressive. Rich was unbeaten at the time. One of richs only four losses. 
I'm just not understanding why most Machida fans response to others that say "______ will push the pace" is "ha thats what he wants...them to play his game.. goodnight for Shogun/rampage/whoever in 2nd round." As if machida has gone on 5 KO streaks like shogun has. Machida could KO anyone in first round . But from what i've seen so far from Machida and Shoguns losses due to KO(from a strike= none) being so sure Machida will KO shogun is a stretch.
Onto Shogun, I know most of his opposition in pride was not as good as Machida but he has notable wins over top guys..Jackson, Arona, Lil nog, Overeem (twice by KO) , and ..liddell ..oh forgot that means nothing nowadays . When you are 18-3 with 15 of your wins being by KO then you're doing something right. So his striking can't be _that_ sloppy. 

Machida is the most technical I've seen . Therefore, he will probably never lose a decision. He will probably get caught just like everyone else. But then all the machiders will chalk it up to the punchers chance theory instead of being schooled.


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## SUR1109 (Mar 18, 2009)

stadw0n said:


> shogun wins this via KO in 2nd round


that would be bad ace but i dont know i would have like to see Rua fight a couple mor times but who else is there really every one else is tied up


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## Mauricio Rua (May 27, 2009)

Those of you comparing Shogun's Muay Thai to Thiago's have no clue what you're talking about. First of all, Thiago is more of a brawler with hardly any precision in his strikes. Also, Thiago doesn't use leg kicks, elbows, head kicks, knees in his standup. He only focusses on his hands, really. Shogun on the other hand, uses ALL the weapons in Muay Thai (knees, kicks, etc.). His strikes land with much more power and precise, just look at his PRIDE days. Shogun has been doing Muay Thai since 17. He has learned everything there is to know about it. He has mastered all the moves, just look at his crazy kicks. 

Machida may be better in the standup, but that's just because he's very elusive. In terms of striking skill, Shogun definitely is better. On the ground Shogun is the better fighter. He earned his black belt in only 4 years. Not to mention, he sometimes trains with Demian Maia in jiujitsu. Machida barely got his black belt not too long ago. Also, you guys need to know that jiujitsu isn't only about submitting people. It's about advancing your positions on the ground and formulating better openings for striking (ground and pounding) and submitting people. That's something Shogun's good at. 

This fight is much closer than you think. Both guys' skills aren't too far off from each other. They each have their advantages in their own ways. Yall shouldn't count Shogun out so quickly. *Sorry if I wrote too much...lol


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

mwhite18 said:


> Well if thats the case..then Machida knocking rashad out doesnt mean much to me besides the fact he was undefeated. Rashad isnt that great of a striker..only "striker" worth mentioning that he beat was forrest since chuck is "washed up".
> 
> I'm not a machida fan nor a hater. I just choose not to join the Machida Sac Buffet so quick. He doesn't have to beat God to impress me..he already has. But he hasnt impressed me to the point where I think Shoguns and rampages stand "no chance past the 3rd". I think its cool he brings in karate, a levelhead , and drinks his piss..but he can be beat.
> 
> ...


 
you gotta understand Machida is winning these fights based on what he is given by his opponent i the opportunity is there to K/O the opponent he will if he has to outstrike with fists he will but its not like you can really go into a fight nd say Im gona knock this dude out everytime......

No one said his striking is sloppy im just sayin at this point in time a win over liddell doesnt mean what it did say 2 yrs ago........

BET DUDE.........put your money where your mouth is.....2500 credits you can handle that.......I RESPECT your opinion put somthing behind it.......:dunno:


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## Shogun_Is_Champ (Jun 17, 2007)

Michael Carson said:


> Lol, yeah, I'd sit back too if I had no clue what I am talking about.
> 
> As far as "Fedor Ko'd AA", Arlovski was winning that fight up until Arlovski made a mistake, which Machida doesn't do often. Fedor is Fedor, someone makes a mistake, he pounces on it and wins the fight, just like Machida. The only difference is Shogun makes more mistakes striking than Arlovski does.


Wow. How can you even say Andre was winning that fight, he threw glancing shots the entire time...


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Shogun_Is_Champ said:


> Wow. How can you even say Andre was winning that fight, he threw glancing shots the entire time...


Arlovski landed leg kicks, straight punches, hooks, Fedor had nothing for him in the clinch, as well as kept the distance well.

Watch the fight again, Arlovski wins every exchange and lands a strike or two in most of them. 

He didn't hurt Fedor, but he definitely was out pointing him.


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> you gotta understand Machida is winning these fights based on what he is given by his opponent i the opportunity is there to K/O the opponent he will if he has to outstrike with fists he will but its not like you can really go into a fight nd say Im gona knock this dude out everytime......
> 
> No one said his striking is sloppy im just sayin at this point in time a win over liddell doesnt mean what it did say 2 yrs ago........
> 
> BET DUDE.........put your money where your mouth is.....2500 credits you can handle that.......I RESPECT your opinion put somthing behind it.......:dunno:


 i'm down with the bet.

I respect what Machida has accomplished..you fight who you get. He does it with honor and respect. I was just breaking down who he has beat and gave my opinion. You might not have said shoguns striking was sloppy but I've read a few posts about his strikes being "wild and loopy" and "liddell shouldve seen that from a mile away."


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## TheNamesNelson (Dec 31, 2006)

Michael Carson said:


> Arlovski landed leg kicks, straight punches, hooks, Fedor had nothing for him in the clinch, as well as kept the distance well.
> 
> Watch the fight again, Arlovski wins every exchange and lands a strike or two in most of them.
> 
> He didn't hurt Fedor, but he definitely was out pointing him.


If the fight made it to the 2nd the Out pointing arguement could be used but come on people. Some times countering a fighter is the style to takes, other times you have to feel out an opponent for a few. In the end Fedor KOd him in less than a round.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

TheNamesNelson said:


> If the fight made it to the 2nd the Out pointing arguement could be used but come on people. Some times countering a fighter is the style to takes, other times you have to feel out an opponent for a few. In the end Fedor KOd him in less than a round.


Yeah, Arlovski made a mistake and paid for it. However, before that mistake, he was winning the fight. He not only tossed out more strikes, but he landed more. Also, it was over 3 minutes into the fight, it's not as if he knocked him out 30 seconds in, so your "if it went to the second round" line doesn't really work. Fedor was losing the fight.

The whole reason Fedor/Arlovski came up was to show that Fedor has sloppy striking much like Shogun, and a techincal striker, if he doesn't make mistakes and is very good at timing and countering, can make sloppy strikers pay the price.

Considering Machida rarely makes mistakes, Shogun is in trouble when it comes to striking, as his sloppy, wide looping punches and predictable head movement and defense skills will be exploited and he will not do well standing.


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## DropKicker (Apr 16, 2009)

What a lot of these once or use to be's, Chuck liddell nuthuggers can't accept is that Shogun looked damn good whooping that ass. I should also add to that Shogun displaying a wide range of attack arsenals such as sucessful take downs, bjj skills & sub attempts on the ground, & superb striking of punches & kicks. But wait because their once idolized favorite fighter got whoop pretty bad, they want to make excuses such as Chuck's not the same anymore, he's old & slow now, ect ect just all bull shit if you ask me. What I suggest is they need to accept that fact that chuck is still the same dominating fighter that was & has always been. He didnt change. And that's the reason he's getting whoop by the top 205ers easily now. Accept the fact that he didn't adapt along with the evolution of today's mma fighters. Which is why everyone's figuring him out. So for the record he didn't change. His competition did & are evolving, passing his what use to be effective fight skills. So saying Shogun aint note worthy enough to be mentioned as competition to Machida is like saying Rashad got lucky & became champ because he Ko'ed an old slower Chuck Lidell, & beat a Forrest Griffin after getting tooled on the feet but wait is'nt he too considered a good striker?!? Than what does that make Machida? I guy that beat a guy that should've never been Champ in the first place?... cmon now let go of Machida's nutts... Shogun will give him one hell of a challenge!!! Mark my words...


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

Whatever! Shogun did a good job last fight, BUT he doesn't deserve a title shot. He has proven himself inconsistent and he needs to get back his rep before people will accept him as a Champ.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> Whatever! Shogun did a good job last fight, BUT he doesn't deserve a title shot. He has proven himself inconsistent and he needs to get back his rep before people will accept him as a Champ.


Clear, concise, and accurate. Well done sir.:thumb02:


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> Arlovski landed leg kicks, straight punches, hooks, Fedor had nothing for him in the clinch, as well as kept the distance well.
> 
> Watch the fight again, Arlovski wins every exchange and lands a strike or two in most of them.
> 
> He didn't hurt Fedor, but he definitely was out pointing him.


check the slow mo. aa did not land anything . 


TEH Sloppy and TEH wide punches will knock TEH machida out...
its ******* annoying all those bandwagoners jumping out of no where.
people started to say that machida will beat fedor... its just sickening already


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

As you can see, I'm not a big fan of either fighter. Although, it is kind of strange to see some people think Shogun can be a threat to Machida standing. What has he done lately to show that? I'm not saying he can't win, but if he does, I don't think it will be because of his striking.

I'm pretty sure both parties have some biased opinions, not just Machidas party. With names like Mauricio_Rua and Shogun Is Champ posting, you can't knock the guys who are fan boys of Machida. It's equal in that area.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

dontazo said:


> check the slow mo. aa did not land anything .
> 
> 
> TEH Sloppy and TEH wide punches will knock TEH machida out...
> ...


I hope you're not talking about me as being a "bandwagoner", as if you check my posts I have been saying Machida will be LHW champion for a long, LONG time, before most people even had a clue who he was. It was only me and a select few that even supported him back in the Sokky fight.

As far as Fedor vs. Arlovski, Arlovski DID land strikes, clearly you are just saying stupid crap as always, not reading posts as usual, and having no actual information on the topic, again, as usual.


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

Michael Carson said:


> As far as Fedor vs. Arlovski, Arlovski DID land strikes...QUOTE]
> 
> Thats the same thing with Lyoto. He may land a few, but Machida would get KTFO against Fedor, unless he was thrown on the ground then Fedor would most def submit Lyoto.
> 
> Machida is not the Fedor killer.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> Why Rampage... even though I'm excited for the TUF, why did he wuss out of a title fight? Now he'll be known as a fight dodger for the rest of his career.


Yeah, what happened to, "I WANT MY BELT BACK!"


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

Machida makes mistakes... like any other fighter. He's not this perfect cyborg everyone makes him out to be.

-In the Sokky fight he got tripped and Sokky is not known for his judo trips (even if he is a solid judo player)
-In the Tito fight he got careless and paid the price and got caught in a triangle that any solid grappler would've finished.
-In the Rashad fight he progressed forward without any type of defense when he rocked Rashad.

Fedor would make him pay dearly for these mistakes.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Guy said:


> Machida makes mistakes... like any other fighter. He's not this perfect cyborg everyone makes him out to be.
> 
> -In the Sokky fight he got tripped and Sokky is not known for his judo trips (even if he is a solid judo player)
> -In the Tito fight he got careless and paid the price and got caught in a triangle that any solid grappler would've finished.
> ...


 

Fedor is a heavy weight and last I checked he is under contract with M1 global.........

why would you compare a lhw to a HW.......???? Why not bring up a guy like anderson silva when a match-up between them would be alot better.......

Plus part of Lyotot's game is moving forward with little defense(mainly I mean hands down)...his head movements and shoulder movements are meant to throw off the opponents attack......

Im gonna puke if i hear anymore about tito's triangle...yeah he had a triangle and enough sweat between the two of them for him to slip right out......plus what does it say about tito when he has to try a last sec sub thats really never in his repituare...????


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## Shogun_Is_Champ (Jun 17, 2007)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> Whatever! Shogun did a good job last fight, BUT he doesn't deserve a title shot. He has proven himself inconsistent and he needs to get back his rep before people will accept him as a Champ.


How is he inconsistent, he lost to a good fighter in forrest griffin, while he had had just undergone surgery, and his only other loss is the freak accident with Mark Coleman. I'm sick of seeing all these threads of "WHO WILL BEAT MACHIDA NOW" and saying how he is God, when he hasn't even defended the title, no one gave Rashad a chance against Chuck, and when he won everyone said he got lucky, then when Machida beats him everyone starts saying how he beat sucha great striker. Get off the nuts.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Shogun_Is_Champ said:


> How is he inconsistent, he lost to a good fighter in forrest griffin, while he had had just undergone surgery, and his only other loss is the freak accident with Mark Coleman. I'm sick of seeing all these threads of "WHO WILL BEAT MACHIDA NOW" and saying how he is God, when he hasn't even defended the title, no one gave Rashad a chance against Chuck, and when he won everyone said he got lucky, then when Machida beats him everyone starts saying how he beat sucha great striker. Get off the nuts.


 
Jeesh....its hard defending Lyoto aslong as I have been and there are several months that Im going to have to do it again.........

First......he was an excellent striker before he ever fought Rashad.....

Second...i love the knee excuse even after his own camp said that wasnt the reason and blamed cardio........Forrest was game and Shogun lost......kinda rampage like.....

Third....he lost to bablu right? Right!!!!


Rashad never really had a chance against Lyoto where as i feel like Shogun is much better game....but ultimately the outcome will be the same.....when you knw everything that is comming at you its easy to deal with the opponent....:thumb02:

I guess every fighter has to have a freak loss like Shoguns to Coleman....maybe IF shogun were to beat lyoto.........machida fans might call it a freak loss.......:confused02: you know in an apparant attempt to blow it off as if it ddnt happen....


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## Shogun_Is_Champ (Jun 17, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> Jeesh....its hard defending Lyoto aslong as I have been and there are several months that Im going to have to do it again.........
> 
> First......he was an excellent striker before he ever fought Rashad.....
> 
> ...


First, its obviously a freak loss if he breaks his arm by stopping his impact on the mat, and I already know whats gonna happen when Shogun wins, all the Machida lovers will make up and excuse, or do what everyone on this forum does, jump on the Shogun Bandwagon and state "they've always been fans."

And the Babalu loss doesn't count, in that org they were fighting in, they weren't allowed strikes onthe ground at all.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Shogun_Is_Champ said:


> First, its obviously a freak loss if he breaks his arm by stopping his impact on the mat, and I already *know whats gonna happen when Shogun wins, all the Machida lovers will make up and excuse, or do what everyone on this forum does, jump on the Shogun Bandwagon* and state "they've always been fans."
> 
> *And the Babalu loss doesn't count, in that org they were fighting in, they weren't allowed strikes onthe ground at all*.


 
for me dude the highlighted parts are bullshit...i agree totally that there tends to be some front runners on this forum who's favorite fighter changes with the belt but your not talkin to one of those here...............

The bablu and the ground strikes is just bullshit if he lost he lost.....

otherwise were gonna have to just wait and if you want we could bet to make it intresting...i should say, more intresting......:thumbsup:


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> Thats the same thing with Lyoto. He may land a few, but Machida would get KTFO against Fedor, unless he was thrown on the ground then Fedor would most def submit Lyoto.
> 
> Machida is not the Fedor killer.


The discussion is not about "Fedor vs. Lyoto", in fact, it was the exact opposite. The whole point of bringing Fedor into the discussion(which I didn't do to begin with), was that Shogun and Fedor both have sloppy, wild striking. Shogun would fight Machida with his sloppy striking, and would lose on points standing, much like Fedor was with Arlovski until Arlovski made a mistake. The difference is Shogun makes more mistakes than Arlovski does, and Machida doesn't make stupid mistakes so Shogun would not "catch" Machida like Fedor did Arlovski, in fact, Machida would pick him apart or capitalize on a mistake that Shogun makes, then make him pay like Arlovski paid.

Read the other posts leading up to that one to understand the discussion.



Shogun_Is_Champ said:


> How is he inconsistent, he lost to a good fighter in forrest griffin, while he had had just undergone surgery, and his only other loss is the freak accident with Mark Coleman. I'm sick of seeing all these threads of "WHO WILL BEAT MACHIDA NOW" and saying how he is God, when he hasn't even defended the title, no one gave Rashad a chance against Chuck, and when he won everyone said he got lucky, then when Machida beats him everyone starts saying how he beat sucha great striker. Get off the nuts.


A few points:

1. Only a few people said he got lucky, mainly Rashad haters or Chuck fans, most know there is no such thing as a "lucky punch".

2. The reason why he was hyped up so much was not only his win over Liddell, but his win over Forrest, who just beat your boy Shogun bad and made him "matte" like in Bloodsport.

3. Rashad was undefeated, never got rocked, has good wrestling, good striking, a great camp, good cardio, speed, explosveness, and power, all of which are dangerous things for any fighter.

4. You're right in that he hasn't defended his title, you know, that thing that Shogun has never even had(except for the tournament he won, which is not a title you can defend, as well as being 3 YEARS ago, a lot has changed since then).

5. People are saying "who can beat Machida now" because Rashad not only had a good style to beat Machida(good wrestling, fast, explosive, powerful hands, good striking, and an amazing camp behind him), but he was also undefeated and looked like he could be champion for a long, long time, yet Machida absolutely destroyed him.

Shogun has far too many holes in his defense to beat Machida striking, he's also not as fast as even Rashad, who by the way looked very slow compared to Machida.

His ground skills are the only way he can beat Machida, which is still not very good considering Shogun is 1-2 when it comes to his win/loss ratio on the ground.


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## Shogun_Is_Champ (Jun 17, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> for me dude the highlighted parts are bullshit...i agree totally that there tends to be some front runners on this forum who's favorite fighter changes with the belt but your not talkin to one of those here...............
> 
> The bablu and the ground strikes is just bullshit if he lost he lost.....
> 
> otherwise were gonna have to just wait and if you want we could bet to make it intresting...i should say, more intresting......:thumbsup:


How is it "He lost he lost" That's like fighting in an org where you can't throw strikes standing. GNP is like 50% of MMA.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Shogun_Is_Champ said:


> How is it "He lost he lost" That's like fighting in an org where you can't throw strikes standing. GNP is like 50% of MMA.


 
let me make it easy......was it a win or loss??? It was a loss......answer the post above your last one.........:thumbsup:


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> Fedor is a heavy weight and last I checked he is under contract with M1 global.........
> 
> why would you compare a lhw to a HW.......???? Why not bring up a guy like anderson silva when a match-up between them would be alot better.......


I didn't mean it as a match between the two, but to say he doesn't make mistakes is retarded. Plenty of other fighters would capitalize on his mistakes other than just Fedor.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Shogun_Is_Champ said:


> How is it "He lost he lost" That's like fighting in an org where you can't throw strikes standing. GNP is like 50% of MMA.


Shogun knew the rules when he entered the fight, it's not as if he got in there and was like "oh, wait, I can't strike?". He trained and prepared for that fight with the intended rules, therefore the loss counts, as it is not as if he loss via cut or some weird accident. 

He lost.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Guy said:


> I didn't mean it as a match between the two, but to say he doesn't make mistakes is retarded. Plenty of other fighters would capitalize on his mistakes other than just Fedor.


 
WHO...thats the big question...I agree there has to be a hole...but who????

Honestly, I wouldnt really be concerned if he fought Anderson Silva......I see a win...So who???


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> WHO...thats the big question...I agree there has to be a hole...but who????
> 
> Honestly, I wouldnt really be concerned if he fought Anderson Silva......I see a win...So who???


Anderson Silva and him would match-up very strangely. That fight could go either way, but we have to keep dreaming because they're bffs. They won't fight.

Rampage could catch him if he tries anything silly. So would Shogun, Henderson, maybe Couture, and a couple of others. Seriously, in a year this whole "Machida elusiveness" mystery will be solved and more and more fighters will give him issues.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Guy said:


> Anderson Silva and him would match-up very strangely. That fight could go either way, but we have to keep dreaming because they're bffs. They won't fight.
> 
> Rampage could catch him if he tries anything silly. So would Shogun, Henderson, maybe Couture, and a couple of others. Seriously, in a year this whole "Machida elusiveness" mystery will be solved and more and more fighters will give him issues.


 
Im gonna save this page....LOL:thumbsup: Machida says he would be intrested in fighting a guy like Lesner because he see's him as being a challange....the whole friend thing needs to go out the window they do this for a living....we'll see.....


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## Mauricio Rua (May 27, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> His ground skills are the only way he can beat Machida, which is still not very good considering Shogun is 1-2 when it comes to his win/loss ratio on the ground.


Okay, let me explain this again. Jiujitsu isn't only about submitting people. They can use it to advance positions for better openings to ground and pound and do other things. If you've even seen his PRIDE fights then you would know that his win/loss ratio on the ground isn't 1-2.... he has knocked the fu*k out out of guys on the ground, and he has had great battles on the ground where he performed well...ex. vs Nogueira.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Mauricio Rua said:


> Okay, let me explain this again. Jiujitsu isn't only about submitting people. They can use it to advance positions for better openings to ground and pound and do other things. If you've even seen his PRIDE fights then you would know that his win/loss ratio on the ground isn't 1-2.... he has knocked the fu*k out out of guys on the ground, and he has had great battles on the ground where he performed well...ex. vs Nogueira.


Really, you mean to tell me BJJ lets you move to a better position? OMG, really?

Thank you, seriously, thank you, I had no idea!

Well, now that the light has been shined upon me, let me explain to you this:

There is absolutely no way he submits Machida, who is a very legit black belt in BJJ, who has really good sweeps and control. Shogun couldn't do anything to Forrest on the ground, in fact, HE WAS SUBMITTED. Also, he couldn't submit Coleman, in fact, he didn't even do that well against Coleman on the ground considering the skill and age difference. 

What do you think he is going to do to Machida, a guy that is a legit BJJ black belt, who has great sweeps and control? Shogun can't even finish Coleman on the ground, much less Machida.

Oh, and, I understand you think he could pass his gaurd and get a TKO or something, well, that'll be difficult when Machida has such great sweeps and solid BJJ.

Seriously, 1-2 on the ground and got finished by Forrest, then couldn't do anything on the ground to an old, tired man in Coleman. Times change, this is not 2005-2006, this is 2009 and Shogun's only legit win is over Liddell, a man who is so over the hill that even his boss, who could make tonsss of money off of him, says he will not let him fight as he does not have it anymore.


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

Shogun_Is_Champ said:


> How is he inconsistent, he lost to a good fighter in forrest griffin, while he had had just undergone surgery, and his only other loss is the freak accident with Mark Coleman. I'm sick of seeing all these threads of "WHO WILL BEAT MACHIDA NOW" and saying how he is God, when he hasn't even defended the title, no one gave Rashad a chance against Chuck, and when he won everyone said he got lucky, then when Machida beats him everyone starts saying how he beat sucha great striker. Get off the nuts.


I am definitely not on Machidas nuts. I am only pointing out that Shogun isn't deserving of a title shot IMO.



Michael Carson said:


> The discussion is not about "Fedor vs. Lyoto", in fact, it was the exact opposite. The whole point of bringing Fedor into the discussion(which I didn't do to begin with), was that Shogun and Fedor both have sloppy, wild striking. Shogun would fight Machida with his sloppy striking, and would lose on points standing, much like Fedor was with Arlovski until Arlovski made a mistake. The difference is Shogun makes more mistakes than Arlovski does, and Machida doesn't make stupid mistakes so Shogun would not "catch" Machida like Fedor did Arlovski, in fact, Machida would pick him apart or capitalize on a mistake that Shogun makes, then make him pay like Arlovski paid.
> 
> Read the other posts leading up to that one to understand the discussion.


I was responding to what I thought I saw :confused02: oops. What I said wasn't wrong though.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Michael Carson said:


> Really, you mean to tell me BJJ lets you move to a better position? OMG, really?
> 
> Thank you, seriously, thank you, I had no idea!
> 
> ...


 
Mauricio??? Are you there??


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> I was responding to what I thought I saw :confused02: oops. What I said wasn't wrong though.


No problem. :thumbsup:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Micheal Carson is spitting knowledge tonight my friends.....take notes and trust his conviction......:thumbsup:


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## Mauricio Rua (May 27, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> Really, you mean to tell me BJJ lets you move to a better position? OMG, really?
> 
> Thank you, seriously, thank you, I had no idea!
> 
> ...


Well according to your other posts you were making it seem as if jiujitsu is only about submitting people. (I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, I really did think you didn't really know what jiujitsu was after reading a few of your posts and after you were saying he was 1-2 on the ground, so just relax dude.) And after that, again, you bring forth the argument that Shogun has been submitted and can't submit anyone.... again, I wasn't talking about him submitting anyone, he has the ability to submit but I do believe he will finish Machida off with a TKO or KO on the ground.
He had no cardio against Coleman and Forrest, I'm not trying to make excuses for him, it's just the reality... but that's just all in the past including his knockout wins, so I'm just going to let his skill do the talking for this next fight. His cardio will be there for this fight... this is the biggest fight of his career, he will probably never get another title shot again, so I'm sure he will make the most out of this opportunity.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Mauricio Rua said:


> Well according to your other posts you were making it seem as if jiujitsu is only about submitting people. (I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, I really did think you didn't really know what jiujitsu was after reading a few of your posts and after you were saying he was 1-2 on the ground, so just relax dude.) And after that, again, you bring forth the argument that Shogun has been submitted and can't submit anyone.... again, I wasn't talking about him submitting anyone, he has the ability to submit but I do believe he will finish Machida off with a TKO or KO on the ground.
> He had no cardio against Coleman and Forrest, I'm not trying to make excuses for him, it's just the reality... but that's just all in the past including his knockout wins, so I'm just going to let his skill do the talking for this next fight. His cardio will be there for this fight... this is the biggest fight of his career, he will probably never get another title shot again, so I'm sure he will make the most out of this opportunity.


 
might have been a little sarcasm.....jus a lil bit....:thumbsup:


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Mauricio Rua said:


> Well according to your other posts you were making it seem as if jiujitsu is only about submitting people. (I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, I really did think you didn't really know what jiujitsu was after reading a few of your posts and after you were saying he was 1-2 on the ground, so just relax dude.) And after that, again, you bring forth the argument that Shogun has been submitted and can't submit anyone.... again, I wasn't talking about him submitting anyone, he has the ability to submit but I do believe he will finish Machida off with a TKO or KO on the ground.
> He had no cardio against Coleman and Forrest, I'm not trying to make excuses for him, it's just the reality... but that's just all in the past including his knockout wins, so I'm just going to let his skill do the talking for this next fight. His cardio will be there for this fight... this is the biggest fight of his career, he will probably never get another title shot again, so I'm sure he will make the most out of this opportunity.


When I say "finish" I mean finish on the ground, by sub or by TKO. He couldn't finish Coleman or Forrest via submission or TKO, or anything, he didn't do well on the ground with these guys. In fact, he got finished himself.

Yeah, cardio is an issue with Shogun, that is part of figthing. He hasn't shown good cardio in a long time. His fight against Liddell didn't show anything, as it wasn't even a full round and the pace wasn't that hard, the only thing Shogun really did to drain any energy was 1 takedown.

Also, you can't look in the past, as you said. Shogun of now has not proven, in any sense, to be the Shogun of old. The same way you can't say Cro Cop is going to go through a tear at HW, there's no reason to think this.

We'll see how he does against Machida, as if Shogun plans to do anything against him, he will have to work A LOT, as Machida is FAST and moves constantly. It'll be interesting to see if he is sucking air or not by the end of the first or second.

Shogun is a really good fighter, he can beat a lot of guys at 205 if he can get his cardio back, but I'm afraid Machida isn't one of them.


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## Mauricio Rua (May 27, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> When I say "finish" I mean finish on the ground, by sub or by TKO. He couldn't finish Coleman or Forrest via submission or TKO, or anything, he didn't do well on the ground with these guys. In fact, he got finished himself.
> 
> Yeah, cardio is an issue with Shogun, that is part of figthing. He hasn't shown good cardio in a long time. His fight against Liddell didn't show anything, as it wasn't even a full round and the pace wasn't that hard, the only thing Shogun really did to drain any energy was 1 takedown.
> 
> ...


Hopefully Shogun is training at altitude for this fight. We will hear more about these guys training as soon as the fight approaches more.... we're barely heading into UFC99, long way to go for this one...


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Mauricio Rua said:


> Hopefully Shogun is training at altitude for this fight. We will hear more about these guys training as soon as the fight approaches more.... we're barely heading into UFC99, long way to go for this one...


Indeed.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

yeah if we keep going at this rate the thrread will be like 400 pages long by the time they fight.....


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## DropKicker (Apr 16, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> yeah if we keep going at this rate the thrread will be like 400 pages long by the time they fight.....


and you could add to that...*"..Coldcall420's forever denying the fact that his boy does have holes in his game and can be beat.."*


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> WHO...thats the big question...I agree there has to be a hole...but who????
> 
> Honestly, I wouldnt really be concerned if he fought Anderson Silva......I see a win...So who???





DropKicker said:


> and you could add to that...*"..Coldcall420's forever denying the fact that his boy does have holes in his game and can be beat.."*


 
Pardon me???? Read the whole thread 1st its stated right above so you dont have to look far.......lol get used to being wrog when it comes to Lyoto.....


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## TERMINATOR (Jul 6, 2008)

Will see what machida does when shogun starts bringin them vicious legs and knees at him.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

TERMINATOR said:


> Will see what machida does when shogun starts bringin them vicious legs and knees at him.


 
he's gonna counter and throw knee's and kicks of his own except these kicks are from awkward angles and unpredictable...Shoguns are telegraphed and face it he isnt the guy he was in the past.......:thumb02:


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## Shogun_Is_Champ (Jun 17, 2007)

Michael Carson said:


> Really, you mean to tell me BJJ lets you move to a better position? OMG, really?
> 
> Thank you, seriously, thank you, I had no idea!
> 
> ...


Wow, you're so stupid, so Shogun isn't a "legit"black belt.


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

Michael Carson said:


> Really, you mean to tell me BJJ lets you move to a better position? OMG, really?
> 
> Thank you, seriously, thank you, I had no idea!
> 
> ...


Man, you must have a chip on your shoulder. You seem to dislike Shogun a lot, for a reason I don't know why. But that's your personal fighter preference, everyone likes different fighters, prefer different things, etc. But you're pretty much hinting at that Shogun isn't all that good on the ground, you know, the same guy who has worked people like Overeem and Ricardo Arona, yes Arona on the ground. Not to mention not only hanging but doing well with Lil Nog on the ground. He did all this when he was only a purple belt.

For some reason you're justifying a loss that came from Griffin. A beat up, bad kneed, completely gassed Shogun. Definitely not taking anything away from Griffin, he did that to Shogun(Not the knee thing, everything else) all the credit too him, and submitting Shogun. But I don't really see how that holds any merit to how that makes Shogun's ground game any bad.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

GodlyMoose said:


> Man, you must have a chip on your shoulder. You seem to dislike Shogun a lot, for a reason I don't know why. But that's your personal fighter preference, everyone likes different fighters, prefer different things, etc. But you're pretty much hinting at that Shogun isn't all that good on the ground, you know, the same guy who has worked people like Overeem and Ricardo Arona, yes Arona on the ground. Not to mention not only hanging but doing well with Lil Nog on the ground. He did all this when he was only a purple belt.
> 
> For some reason you're justifying a loss that came from Griffin. A beat up, bad kneed, completely gassed Shogun. Definitely not taking anything away from Griffin, he did that to Shogun(Not the knee thing, everything else) all the credit too him, and submitting Shogun. But I don't really see how that holds any merit to how that makes Shogun's ground game any bad.


I actually like Shogun, was very sad when he lost to Griffin. Have never put Shogun down, and I am not even doing it now, just stating why his ground game won't be enough to "finish" Machida, when he couldn't finish Forrest(even when he got on top), or do anything to Coleman, who was also gassed and tired.

Shogun is good on the ground, I see him beating most guys at 205 if his cardio is its best, as I've already stated.

However, his ground game is not good enough to finish Machida, a legit BJJ black belt with great sweeps and control.

Also, I thought this thread was dead, lol.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

GodlyMoose said:


> Man, you must have a chip on your shoulder. You seem to dislike Shogun a lot, for a reason I don't know why. But that's your personal fighter preference, everyone likes different fighters, prefer different things, etc. But you're pretty much hinting at that Shogun isn't all that good on the ground, you know, the same guy who has worked people like Overeem and Ricardo Arona, yes Arona on the ground. Not to mention not only hanging but doing well with Lil Nog on the ground. He did all this when he was only a purple belt.
> 
> For some reason you're justifying a loss that came from Griffin. A beat up, bad kneed, completely gassed Shogun. Definitely not taking anything away from Griffin, he did that to Shogun(Not the knee thing, everything else) all the credit too him, and submitting Shogun. *But I don't really see how that holds any merit to how that makes Shogun's ground game any bad*.


 
So why do you give forrest credit for the win....def not taking anything away from Griffin.......YES YOU ARE...i hate that knee excuse he gassed period the camp said the same thing they said it had nothing to do with his knee......

Your post contradicts itself....I cant wait for this all the shogun nutt huggers will go back into the woodwork......:confused02: Mike carson is just stating facts no opinions for the most part...i mean we all like who we like but he's hittin you with facts and your comming back with excuses.....


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

Michael Carson said:


> I actually like Shogun, was very sad when he lost to Griffin. Have never put Shogun down, and I am not even doing it now, just stating why his ground game won't be enough to "finish" Machida, when he couldn't finish Forrest(even when he got on top), or do anything to Coleman, who was also gassed and tired.
> 
> Shogun is good on the ground, I see him beating most guys at 205 if his cardio is its best, as I've already stated.
> 
> ...


Oh, I don't think Shogun will be able to finish Machida on the ground either. Machida is a very good and semi-accomplished no-gi grappler, Machida is definitely no joke on the ground. But Shogun has shown many times that he is very good off his back as well as having great transitions and great top control. In my personal opinion I think Shogun is better on the ground, from what they have shown in their fights. But I believe Machida is good enough where he wouldn't let himself get pounded out or submitted. I would love to see their fight go to ground and be an all out technical grappling match, but Shogun likes to brawl on his feet and Machida likes to punch dudes in the face. What can you do? 



coldcall420 said:


> So why do you give forrest credit for the win....def not taking anything away from Griffin.......YES YOU ARE...i hate that knee excuse he gassed period the camp said the same thing they said it had nothing to do with his knee......
> 
> Your post contradicts itself....I cant wait for this all the shogun nutt huggers will go back into the woodwork......:confused02: Mike carson is just stating facts no opinions for the most part...i mean we all like who we like but he's hittin you with facts and your comming back with excuses.....


You seem to have reading comprehension problems. No where in my post did I discredit Griffin's win. Griffin won a legit fight, it's Shogun's fault for coming into the fight injured and out of shape. I said that submission over Shogun doesn't show that Shogun has a a bad ground game.

I've been repping Machida since 2007 and have predicted that he will be at the top of the food chain in this class since then as well. I also think he is the best 205 pounder in MMA. Not to mention I love him more than the next guy. But you're saying I'm coming up with excuses for some strange reason, to justify your own nut hugging and shooting down any criticism what so ever. Me and Michael are having a civil debate on Shogun's MMA, while you seem to just be nitpicking.


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## Shogun_Is_Champ (Jun 17, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> So why do you give forrest credit for the win....def not taking anything away from Griffin.......YES YOU ARE...i hate that knee excuse he gassed period the camp said the same thing they said it had nothing to do with his knee......
> 
> Your post contradicts itself....I cant wait for this all the shogun nutt huggers will go back into the woodwork......:confused02: Mike carson is just stating facts no opinions for the most part...i mean we all like who we like but he's hittin you with facts and your comming back with excuses.....


What facts? That Machida is a "legit" Black belt, all I see is Michael coming up with some valid points, but you in the background swinging from the nuts and saying nothing of use.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Ok, this needs to be said, and it probably already has. But Shogun's almost submission win is to Kevin Randleman, this fight will not end in submission. In fact.. I doubt this fight hits the ground for more then a few minutes in the entire fight.

Plus, Shogun is far to aggresive to stand much of a chance against Machida's counter striking. Sure, Shogun can find weird angles and put a ton of power into it, but Machida can too, and he dodges like lightning.

Machida by KO, maybe in the second.


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## mihklo (Jun 18, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> Shogun is good on the ground, I see him beating most guys at 205 if his cardio is its best, as I've already stated.
> 
> However, his ground game is not good enough to finish Machida, a legit BJJ black belt with great sweeps and control.



machida was nearly finished by tito...... if tito can come close i would have to think that shogun would at least have a chance to.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

Yes Shogun has only one submission win. He also did great against guys like Nog and Arona on the ground. Neither of the guys who submitted him were scrubs and both came at the end of tough fights where Shogun was exhausted.

Where is this nuthuggery of Lyotos sweeps and control coming from? Hes never fought someone with Shoguns level of BJJ, or even close to it with the exception of a fat BJ Penn. He came within a hair of getting submitted by Tito Ortiz.

Shogun is far more proven on the ground than Machida.


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

That crazy Chute Boxe style fits Machida perfectly.
It's even worse In the octagon as Shogun cant trap him In a corner.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

TheNegation said:


> Yes Shogun has only one submission win. He also did great against guys like Nog and Arona on the ground. Neither of the guys who submitted him were scrubs and both came at the end of tough fights where Shogun was exhausted.
> 
> Where is this nuthuggery of Lyotos sweeps and control coming from? Hes never fought someone with Shoguns level of BJJ, or even close to it with the exception of a fat BJ Penn. He came within a hair of getting submitted by Tito Ortiz.
> 
> Shogun is far more proven on the ground than Machida.


yeah his one win on the ground compared to Lyoto who has two????:confused02:


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

Because Sokoudjou and MichaeL Mcdonald are ground wizards?

Who has Lyoto fought thats been great on the ground, that we are basing our analysis of his awesome ground skills on?

Shogun has been in there with the best. Lyoto has not.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

TheNegation said:


> Because Sokoudjou and MichaeL Mcdonald are ground wizards?
> 
> Who has Lyoto fought thats been great on the ground, that we are basing our analysis of his awesome ground skills on?
> 
> Shogun has been in there with the best. Lyoto has not.


Awesome was never in my post....Simple facts were in my post..he has 2 sub wins Shogun has 1........


Thats the point period.........maybe that battle with little nog lil nog wasnt up to par who knows....excuses excuses......he lost twice(shogun) and won once.....lyoto won twice...those are just facts that you cant NEGATE.......:thumb02: Again awesomness never are your words.......Im speaking facts......My main point is you act as if machida has no clue how to ground fight where in reality he did it alot more in his earlier career when he was less confident in his Karate......


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## mihklo (Jun 18, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> yeah his one win on the ground compared to Lyoto who has two????:confused02:



whats the point? shogun has 15 KO/TKO compared to machida's 5......yet most are picking machida to win by KO


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> Awesome was never in my post....Simple facts were in my post..*he has 2 sub wins Shogun has 1........
> 
> 
> Thats the point period*.........maybe that battle with little nog lil nog wasnt up to par who knows....excuses excuses......he lost twice(shogun) and won once.....lyoto won twice...those are just facts that you cant NEGATE.......:thumb02: Again awesomness never are your words.......Im speaking facts......My main point is you act as if machida has no clue how to ground fight where in reality he did it alot more in his earlier career when he was less confident in his Karate......



And what is that point? What does that prove?

Mark Coleman has more wins by submission than Machida. Mark Colemans BJJ > Lyotos BJJ !!111

I never acted as if Machida has no clue how to ground fight. People were stating that Shogun wasn't good enough to submit and circle jerking to Lyotos ground game. Shogun has faced exceptionally good BJJ practitioners in MMA, and done great. Lyoto has not. Does this mean that he can;t ground fight? No. It means he isnt proven like Lyoto is.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

coldcall u are a ******* noob who is swinging on machidas d|ck. please stfu with ur bullshit already


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

mihklo said:


> whats the point? shogun has 15 KO/TKO compared to machida's 5......yet most are picking machida to win by KO


 


Welcome aboard...........uuhhhmm....this discussion you hopped in was about their jitz abilities....no one was talkin in our posts back and forth about knock outs...

But since were on that topic I'll tell you this...id be willing to bet you machida finishes him.......:thumb02:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

dontazo said:


> coldcall u are a ******* noob who is swinging on machidas d|ck. please stfu with ur bullshit already


 
first off **** you Dontazo...you know me on this forum and your out of line......

I repped my boy since the beginning and just cuz your a front running bitch who's fav fighter is whoever holds the belt doesnt mean i swinfg from machidas nutts......

im surprised at your post as we seem to usually get along...so basically whoever shit in your breakfast take it up with them..otherwise suck up being wrong and go **** yourself......i've posted on this forum longer than you and i in no way fit the def of a noob!!!!!

deal with being wrong.........:thumbsdown:


Sorry 4 the doub post.........


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## mihklo (Jun 18, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> Welcome aboard...........uuhhhmm....this discussion you hopped in was about their jitz abilities....no one was talkin in our posts back and forth about knock outs...
> 
> But since were on that topic I'll tell you this...id be willing to bet you machida finishes him.......:thumb02:


i understand what you were discussing. and the point i was making was that just because machida has more submission victories than shogun is a poor argument that his jitz is better. that is why i pointed out about the KO/TKO margin. because by your theory that would mean rua's standup and finishing abilities are greater than machida's. and i think many would argue against that statement. 

on a side note, i am excited to see this fight. i think shogun has a better chance than most are giving him to win this fight. am i saying that he is going to win? not at all. but i think its gonna be a good fight.


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## cezwan (Dec 7, 2007)

funny how 6 months ago, everyone was writing off Machida as being overrated, and now all of a sudden, people are swinging of his balls and claiming to be number 1 fans.

makes me laugh..

Shogun by KO.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

TheNegation said:


> And what is that point? What does that prove?
> 
> *Mark Coleman has more wins by submission* than Machida. Mark Colemans BJJ > Lyotos BJJ !!111
> 
> I never acted as if Machida has no clue how to ground fight. People were stating that Shogun wasn't good enough to submit and circle jerking to Lyotos ground game. Shogun has faced exceptionally good BJJ practitioners in MMA, and done great. Lyoto has not. Does this mean that he can;t ground fight? *No. It means he isnt proven like Lyoto is*.


 
???????:confused02: Again why do I care about colemans wins by submission or how many more he has than Machida.......are they fighting???


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

ur arguments are retarded coldcall. u start to discredit shoguns bjj cuz he does not have lot of sub wins. u say he has a "sloppy " striking just because he does not use straight punches. anyway ur posts are joke, when machida gets ko'd u will say that shogun got lucky , ur that kind of a person


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

TheNegation said:


> And what is that point? What does that prove?
> 
> Mark Coleman has more wins by submission than Machida. Mark Colemans BJJ > Lyotos BJJ !!111
> 
> I never acted as if Machida has no clue how to ground fight. People were stating that Shogun wasn't good enough to submit and circle jerking to Lyotos ground game. Shogun has faced exceptionally good BJJ practitioners in MMA, and done great. Lyoto has not. Does this mean that he can;t ground fight? No. It means he isnt proven like Lyoto is.





mihklo said:


> i understand what you were discussing. and the point i was making was that just because machida has more submission victories than shogun is a poor argument that his jitz is better. that is why i pointed out about the KO/TKO margin. because by your theory that would mean rua's standup and finishing abilities are greater than machida's. and i think many would argue against that statement.
> 
> on a side note, i am excited to see this fight. i think shogun has a better chance than most are giving him to win this fight. am i saying that he is going to win? not at all. but i think its gonna be a good fight.


 
TBH...I think Shogun is better on the ground and my intent was not to infer that Lyoto's is better....more to just state that itts not like he doesnt posses any game on the ground or the ability to deal with a BJJ practioner.......which i now understand why you mentioned the tko/ko ratio....


My sisde note would be that Shogun prob has one of the better chances...i like shogun I've been a Machida fan since before he got into the UFC...and because of that when he has success assholes wanna say your a nutt hugger......

im pumped man I think it will be a great fight and we'll see what happens....
i am always down to go round and round to debate a topic...:thumb02:

DONATAZO....your just out of line...and i tought we were cool as we have posted aside each other many times in agreement.....


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## cezwan (Dec 7, 2007)

i think both you guys should take a chill pill..


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

dontazo said:


> ur arguments are retarded coldcall. u start to discredit shoguns bjj cuz he does not have lot of sub wins. u say he has a "sloppy " striking just because he does not use straight punches. anyway ur posts are joke, *when machida gets ko'd u will say that shogun got lucky , ur that kind of a person*


never said sloppy...im not sure where you come up with this.......I dont remember writting that and i looked back...didnt ssee it...cuz i didnt say it......

So dont take offense when none was given.......

you dont know me i will stand right by Lyoto and still talk shit if he losses....hopefully that lets you understand the level of respect i have for him......

i stated earlier you andi have agreed on many topics shared pos reps and you post that shit above......DONATAZO...you wee out of line and YOU will be the first person i punk when your chump losses......


your knowledge of MMA is a joke...i've been fighting 15yrs...you sit in front of your computer watch porn and pop pimples on your goofy face all day.....thats why you were a rashad fan, prob a forrest fan before, a rampage fan before that, and of course a chuck fan as well...HELL...whoevers winning right????

Your a chump........go learn an art before you act like you know everything about one...i have a black in tae kwon do and studied shotkan karate to black belt so thats why i have a love and respect for what Lyoto does....


enjoy playing your video games for the rest of the afternoon.....kid:sarcastic12:


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

nothing personal coldcall. i am not the one who insults family


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

cezwan said:


> i think both you guys should take a chill pill..


 
Im done...and I never took it personal till he did......there are like 13 yr olds that post on here.....theres nothing you can do....:thumb02:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

dontazo said:


> coldcall u are a ******* noob who is swinging on machidas d|ck. please stfu with ur bullshit already





dontazo said:


> ur arguments are retarded coldcall. u start to discredit shoguns bjj cuz he does not have lot of sub wins. u say he has a "sloppy " striking just because he does not use straight punches. anyway ur posts are joke, when machida gets ko'd u will say that shogun got lucky , ur that kind of a person





dontazo said:


> nothing personal coldcall. i am not the one who insults family


 

LOL......D...all that above sounds kinda personal...you took it there and as i said we've agreed and shared pos reps many times........it caught me off guard you would address me like that.....and my reaction was a result.......:thumbsup:

Sorry for the dub post....


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

ok my bad man. lets forget what happened . 

that said shogun via ko lol


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> ???????:confused02: Again why do I care about colemans wins by submission or how many more he has than Machida.......are they fighting???


I don't get why you made that point in the first place, as it is worthless, thats why I posted that. It's about as worthwhile a statement as commenting on the length of their hair.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

TheNegation said:


> I don't get why you made that point in the first place, as it is worthless, thats why I posted that. It's about as worthwhile a statement as commenting on the length of their hair.





TheNegation said:


> And what is that point? What does that prove?
> 
> Mark Coleman has more wins by submission than Machida. Mark Colemans BJJ > Lyotos BJJ !!111
> 
> I never acted as if Machida has no clue how to ground fight. People were stating that Shogun wasn't good enough to submit and circle jerking to Lyotos ground game. Shogun has faced exceptionally good BJJ practitioners in MMA, and done great. Lyoto has not. Does this mean that he can;t ground fight? No. It means he isnt proven like Lyoto is.


I brought that up cuz you entered coleman as an exapmle that is irrelevant to Shogun vs. Machida......

Look we can agree or disagree the personal shit needs to stop cuz were all adults here......we have opinons we can share them and if we disagree we can bet or wait for the outcome but going through hypotheticals for the next 4 months is stupid....

FTR...I have been a Machida fan for a realy long time and you wanna call me a nutt hugger cuz of that fine........

The point was that people wanna sell Rua as the next best thing since sliced bred and thats the sure fire way he will beat Machida and thats just not the case..

hell I had a dude wanted to bet me on the fight...BUT...he's like unless the fight hits the ground there is no bet...im like so your saying that they must roll in order for our bet to become honored.....is he fuckin serious...thats kinda like sayin..
"I'll bet you but Ill only pay if what my fighter does best he gets a chance to do...which in this case is try to take lyoto down and sub him.....

im like dude tilt the deck in your favor......apparantly he has never bet...but there can never be pre existing conditions set before they even fight.....

Hypothetically i could have taken his action...lyoto walk out high kick to the head and shoguns out...i wouldnt get paid......what a joke.....

So when dealing with people like that....yeah....i rep the shit out of my boy.......just like you do yours....

RESPECT.......:thumbsup:


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

There is no personal shit, your point just doesn't hold any water whatsoever. It was useless, I brought up the Colema example to illustrate that, but apparently you didn't ge that. Just like you didn't get the other guy bringing up Shoguns KOs/tkos.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

TheNegation said:


> There is no personal shit, your point just doesn't hold any water whatsoever. It was useless, I brought up the Colema example to illustrate that, but apparently you didn't ge that. Just like you didn't get the other guy bringing up Shoguns KOs/tkos.


 
Which point exactly since there have been several made.....

my point was simply that records dont mean shit....your boy has one sub win...yet everyone says thats how he'll beat machida.....


its not complicated...thats why I pointed out machida has 2....AND THEY DONT MEAN SHIT.....so you boys one isnt that relevant...


there's a glass of knowledge for you thats holding water fine...........:thumb02:


i got all those examples i think the miscommunication is you think that i dont know its irrelevant...when my point was from the beginning that just because one has a better record doesnt mean the other fighter cant beat them in that game......


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

GodlyMoose said:


> Man, you must have a chip on your shoulder. You seem to dislike Shogun a lot, for a reason I don't know why. But that's your personal fighter preference, everyone likes different fighters, prefer different things, etc. But you're pretty much hinting at that Shogun isn't all that good on the ground, you know, *the same guy who has worked people like Overeem and Ricardo Arona*, yes Arona on the ground. Not to mention not only hanging but doing well with Lil Nog on the ground. He did all this when he was only a purple belt.
> 
> For some reason you're justifying a loss that came from Griffin. A beat up, bad kneed, completely gassed Shogun. Definitely not taking anything away from Griffin, he did that to Shogun(Not the knee thing, everything else) all the credit too him, and submitting Shogun. But I don't really see how that holds any merit to how that makes Shogun's ground game any bad.





GodlyMoose said:


> Oh, I don't think Shogun will be able to finish Machida on the ground either. Machida is a very good and semi-accomplished no-gi grappler, Machida is definitely no joke on the ground. But Shogun has shown many times that he is very good off his back as well as having great transitions and great top control. In my personal opinion I think Shogun is better on the ground, from what they have shown in their fights. But I believe Machida is good enough where he wouldn't let himself get pounded out or submitted. I would love to see their fight go to ground and be an all out technical grappling match, but Shogun likes to brawl on his feet and Machida likes to punch dudes in the face. What can you do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
you discredit it by blamming Shoguns bum knee.....its not complicated.....have your civil debate i think Michael carson is owning you in that debate.....

*BOLD* = Did he sub them?????


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

Thats not how it came off at all. I presented an argument about the level of BJJ that both fighters had shown throughout tehir careers and the different fighters they had faced, and you replied with


coldcall420 said:


> yeah his one win on the ground compared to Lyoto who has two????:confused02:


And people are supposed to take from that that you mean records don;t mean shit?

Furthermore, after reading back over this thread, I don;t believe that is what you were saying, I think you meant exactly what I thought you meant at first, and you were trying to present it as an argument against mine about the level of BJJ they have shown, mostly due to this post


coldcall420 said:


> Awesome was never in my post....*Simple facts were in my post..he has 2 sub wins Shogun has 1........
> 
> 
> Thats the point period.........maybe that battle with little nog lil nog wasnt up to par who knows....excuses excuses.*.....he lost twice(shogun) and won once.....lyoto won twice...those are just facts that you cant NEGATE.......:thumb02: Again awesomness never are your words.......Im speaking facts......*My main point is you act as if machida has no clue how to ground fight where in reality he did it alot more in his earlier career when he was less confident in his Karate*......


I thin you tried to make that point, and when people pointed out that it meant absolutely nothing and was a terrible argument you decided to do a 180 and say you meant something else, i.e. that records don't mean shit.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> you discredit it by blamming Shoguns bum knee.....its not complicated.....have your civil debate i think Michael carson is owning you in that debate.....
> 
> *BOLD* = Did he sub them?????


now this is really silly. shogun owned arona on the ground. same arona who arguably controlled fedor on the ground. u DONT HAVE TO SUB a guy to display ur jitz. BJJ IS NOT only about subbing, he used omaplata to sweep him adn than gnp'd the shit out of him. same thing he will do against machida


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> Awesome was never in my post....Simple facts were in my post..he has 2 sub wins Shogun has 1........
> 
> 
> Thats the point period.........quote]
> ...


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

facts? colman subb'd more guys than machida that is a fact. does that mean that he is better than machida on the ground? absolutely no. anyway lets forget about that, and now lets talk about how machida never faced a guy like shogun


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

dontazo said:


> now this is really silly. shogun owned arona on the ground. same arona who arguably controlled fedor on the ground. u DONT HAVE TO SUB a guy to display ur jitz. BJJ IS NOT only about subbing, he used omaplata to sweep him adn than gnp'd the shit out of him. same thing he will do against machida


 
Im not saying he didint....why does everything have to be called stupid...thats what pises me off.......the point is he didnt sub them.........*THATS IT*!!!!!!

I dont understand why thats so hard to get????


BTW....its all good "D"...my bad on the rep...I'll make it up to you......


The fact that he didnt sub them doesnt make him suck....okay!!!!! It just means he didnt sub them where earlier on the thread it was the sure fire way he will beat Machida(according to other posters).........


THATS ALL....this has gotten way to complicated and for what I ask...........A Machida win in the end anyway.....:thumbsup:


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

why would he sub arona when he can gnp him? shogun is excelent in sweeps and tranisitons he does not have to sub machida. he can stay in his guard and gnp him all day


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

dontazo said:


> facts? colman subb'd more guys than machida that is a fact. does that mean that he is better than machida on the ground? absolutely no. anyway lets forget about that, and now lets talk about how machida never faced a guy like shogun


 
no....but it doesnt mean coleman couldnt be submitted by Machida.....THATS ALL FROM THE BEGINNING that I was trying to point out.....


That just cuz something is a guys forte' doesnt guarantee he will use that forte' to beat his opponent......

The arguments are retarded cuz i think if we were all in the same room we'd agree......


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

dontazo said:


> why would he sub arona when he can gnp him? shogun is excelent in sweeps and tranisitons he does not have to sub machida. he can stay in his guard and gnp him all day


 

"D"...thats not the point and i dont care...the point was he simply has one win by sub......:confused02:


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

The only thing I argue with is someone saying Shogun will win by kimura or a leg lock of some sort. Does he have the ability to out grapple Machida? I think so if mostly grappling was involved in the fight, but I don't think he can submit him considering he has been unable to submit lesser skilled grapplers. In fact, the only person he has submitted is Kevin Randleman who really is just a one dimensional wrestler.

So like I said, I think Shogun can out grapple Machida, but I find it unlikely that he could submit him.

So anyways, Machida should win by decision in my opinion.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

shogun never tried to sub arona or other top grapplers that is the point. he does not sub people he tko's/ ko's people. he does not use his bjj to sub rather than control


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

dontazo said:


> shogun never tried to sub arona or other top grapplers that is the point. he does not sub people he tko's/ ko's people. he does not use his bjj to sub rather than control


 
Understood and noted......he has 1 sub win.....machida has 2........Shogun is better on the ground..I said it....

The only point of this post is that everything written are facts..........

Luv ya dude...gotta get back to work...thats another thing...hoppin in and out of these discussions when your busy makes it hard to follow post by post......:thumb02:


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## Grotty (Jul 21, 2006)

Debate is pointless Machida is going to dominate the division mwahahaaha, serioulsy though could shogun dominate Evans the way machida had?


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

They're entirely different fighters. He couldn't dominate him the way Lyoto did, but he could do it the way he did to many of his other opponenets.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Man, I thought this thread died, it was a ghost thread for like 2 days.

Coldcall, I suggest we move on and let these guys live in 2006, where they can still believe that Shogun is or will be #1 in the world again, where they think his sloppy, wild striking and day 1 training defense(predictable side to side head movement, leaves body open for attacks constantly when defending, can be tripped easily as most his defense leaves him moving back in a straight line), will get him back to the top.

Also, for the record, I never said Shogun's ground game was bad or anything, all was trying to point out is that if he can be finished by Forrest, unable to do anything to Coleman, etc, I highly doubt he'll be able to sub or control someone who is a black belt in BJJ, as well as having really good control and sweeps. Anyways, the fight has to get to the ground for any of that to even be part of the fight, which I doubt will happen.

Ok, done with this thread, said all I could over the last 23 pages.

Nice debate, all!


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> you discredit it by blamming Shoguns bum knee.....its not complicated


No, not really.



coldcall420 said:


> *BOLD* = Did he sub them?????


Overeem he mounted him and punched his face in, no need to sub him. 

Arona on the other hand? I'm not sure if you know who Arona is and his grappling credentials. There's a reason why his fight with Arona is amazing. It's because he gets taken down by Arona and transitions off of Arona, yes Arona with an omaplata and just keeps Arona on his back for the rest of the fight. Arona is one of the most accomplished no-gi grapplers to ever live and has one of the strongest bases, not to mention the top control of a god, and just overall control. Arona may be a boring fighter to a lot of people but he's an amazing grappler, anyone should be able to detest for that.

Arona's style makes a bad matchup for almost everyone. He has great takedowns, great guard passing, and is great at maintainung top positions. His style neutralizes, controls, and systematically acquires points with muscled out conservative style. Nobody likes that, even though it is highly effective for tournaments.

Being huge, strong and just insanely skilled at stalling positions and getting points is what Arona is good at, and he's damn good at it.

The guy is a monster, he is the only undefeated ADCC champ. Not only that, he hasn't even gotten one point scored against him in his entire ADCC career.

This all of course could be a reason why he couldn't submit Arona when he was only a purple belt.

I'm not saying Shogun will win, I actually think Machida will this fight. I just feel people aren't really giving Shogun the credit that he deserves, it's not like he tumbled all the way to the #1 LHW a couple years back.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

GodlyMoose said:


> No, not really.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Your answers are hillarious........your in straight denial of facts......did he sub him....*NO*

OH YOUR THE AUTHORITY THAT SAYS HE DIDNT NEED TO CUZ HE MOUNTED HIM........


*WHY DO YOU FAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGE HE ONLY HAS 1 SUB VICTORY............eitherway.........HE ONLY HAS ONE......*

your desire to comeback with some other excuse other than saying....yeah he only has one is...............well he mounted him or tko's whoever....thats not the question.......

Really its pointless....I'm with Mike you guys stay in 2006 and I will personally bust all your balls when Machida whips your boy....and btw.....he's gonna knock your boy out!!!!!!!

good luck to all.......


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

cmon man now u jsut being ignorent. its not about subbing him man, bjj is not about it. shogun does not need to sub machida to win. he can control him via his awesome bjj and win the fight. 
GodlyMoose nice !


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> Your answers are hillarious........your in straight denial of facts......did he sub him....*NO*
> 
> OH YOUR THE AUTHORITY THAT SAYS HE DIDNT NEED TO CUZ HE MOUNTED HIM........
> 
> ...





dontazo said:


> cmon man now u jsut being ignorent. its not about subbing him man, bjj is not about it. shogun does not need to sub machida to win. he can control him via his awesome bjj and win the fight.
> GodlyMoose nice !


 

OK........im going to try one more time....lets just say for arguments sake that Shogun takes machida down owns him on the ground for like 2 rounds....at the end of the third Machida stands up and Shogun k/o's him.......you with me so far???? Good!!!


HOW MANY WINS BY SUB WOULD SHOGUN HAVE THEN??????



GET IT YET.........your the one being ignorant because the answer is one.......which has been the point the whole time.....that one sub win doesnt mean he wont whip lyoto on his feet or the ground..........

BUT AFTER K/OING MACHIDA(if he could).....HE WOULD STILL HAVE ONLY ONE SUB VICTORY....


WHY THAT HAS BEEN SO HARD T MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND I DONT KNOW.....however my ability to try to make you get it other than this last attempt is over.......
Either you get it o you dont............:thumbsup:


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## Freiermuth (Nov 19, 2006)

Both these guys are awesome, been a fan of Shoguns for a while because of his balls-out style and Machida really won me over with his post-fight excitement but I'm going to be pulling for Shogun just because I've been a fan for longer and how he handled Chuck. He basically did what everyone said he shouldn't do...go in with the guns blazin'!

Machida has better overall stand-up, but I think Shogun's good enough to keep Machida honest and get a take-down....I mean when Shogun is coming at you, it could be a kick, a punch, flying knee or a shoot....guy is crazy! Of course, with Machida's skill, he could end the fight on any of those attempts.

I don't think this fight will last even 3 rounds so Cardio probably won't be a huge factor....unless Shogun is really un-prepared.


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## Shogun_Is_Champ (Jun 17, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> OK........im going to try one more time....lets just say for arguments sake that Shogun takes machida down owns him on the ground for like 2 rounds....at the end of the third Machida stands up and Shogun k/o's him.......you with me so far???? Good!!!
> 
> 
> HOW MANY WINS BY SUB WOULD SHOGUN HAVE THEN??????
> ...


I can tell by your posts and grammar that you're no older than 10. You keep saying he has only one sub win which makes Shogun worse than Machida on the ground, which is being totally ignorant, as BJJ is not about only subs you ignorant fool.


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> Your answers are hillarious........your in straight denial of facts......did he sub him....*NO*
> 
> OH YOUR THE AUTHORITY THAT SAYS HE DIDNT NEED TO CUZ HE MOUNTED HIM........
> 
> ...


My posts are hilarious and I'm in denial? What are you even talking about? No one is saying Shogun has more than one win by submission, we're talking about Shogun's level of BJJ. You're the only person here who isn't supporting anything what they're saying besides that Shogun has only one submission win which is what you're trying to use as evidence that Shogun has some sort of McDojo blackbelt. Like I said, you should really read over what we are actually talking about before you start going off on these crazy rants of yours.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Shogun_Is_Champ said:


> I can tell by your posts and grammar that you're no older than 10. You keep saying he has only *one sub win which makes Shogun worse than Machida on the ground*, which is being totally ignorant, as BJJ is not about only subs you ignorant fool.


 

Grammar????? Your an idiot and your talkin to a 30 yr old man.....you know why your an idiot....I highlighted it....cuz this whole time Ive been trying to tell you that I dont think that makes machida better on the ground......(the fact shogun has 1 sub)......*GET IT NOW*...........what it simply means is he isnt just gonna dominate lyoto on the ground like people have been saying...thats it dude thats all I've been tryin to get you to understand......i agree Shogun is better on the ground..........Hopefully now you get it..........





GodlyMoose said:


> My posts are hilarious and I'm in denial? What are you even talking about? No one is saying Shogun has more than one win by submission, we're talking about Shogun's level of BJJ. You're the only person here who isn't supporting anything what they're saying besides that Shogun has only one submission win which is what you're trying to use as evidence that Shogun has some sort of McDojo blackbelt. Like I said, you should really read over what we are actually talking about before you start going off on these crazy rants of yours.


 
Read above....thats about all I can say.....I THINK HIS BLACK IS LEGIT AND HIS GROUND GAME IS WAY BETTER..........if you go to the earlierposts in this thread people are saying shogun will take him down and sub him........

Thats how this topic came about.........



*NOW*....for you two I dont see the fight going to the ground.....I see a war on the feet......obviously you know who i like at the end as far as the fight, it will be great but get it through your heads I am not doging shoguns ability on the bround nor on his feet............just his ability to beat Lyoto...


Im done with this.......:thumbsup:


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