# I'm on the Lesnar Bandwagon



## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Ok, so I have to admit that this Brock Lesnar thing is getting me interested in the HW division. I also notice many MMA fans bashing him simply because he was a WWE guy but, is the trash talk warranted? Was this another bad reffing deal? Who thinks he is going to be good for the sport? Who doesn't? I just want to stimulate conversation about Lesnar to see if anyone, aside from me, thinks he could change the HW in a great way.


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## burton_o6 (Oct 30, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Ok, so I have to admit that this Brock Lesnar thing is getting me interested in the HW division. I also notice many MMA fans bashing him simply because he was a WWE guy but, it the trash talk warranted? Plus, was the Mir Job a screw job? A bad reffing deal? Who thinks he is going to be good for the sport? Who doesn't? I just want to stimulate conversation about Lesnar to see if anyone, aside from me, thinks he could change the HW in a great way.


Do you honestly believe that the ufc would fix the fight, so that he would lose, after paying him that kind of money?


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## mercom (Jun 16, 2007)

how could it be a bad reffing deal? he tapped out... unless you think the fight should of been stopped due to lesnars GNP... but mir recovering and securing the submission proves that wrong


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

I'm wondering what people think. My opinion is a bad call by the ref.


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## Benge (Mar 8, 2008)

nissassagame said:


> I'm wondering what people think. My opinion is a bad call by the ref.


I agree. Since when do refs stop a fight just because a guy taps out or, god forbid, verbally admits defeat?


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

watch the fight again my friend and the fight was stood up because of illegal strikes to the back of the head. watch and listen to the announcers. mirs submission was great, but should it have gotten that far?


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## burton_o6 (Oct 30, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> I'm wondering what people think. My opinion is a bad call by the ref.


I thought that right after the fight, but after some time to reflect, I think it was the right call.



> watch the fight again my friend and the fight was stood up because of illegal strikes to the back of the head. watch and listen to the announcers. mirs submission was great, but should it have gotten that far?


So fights should not be stopped when the attacker is using illegal methods?


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

I watch the fight often and it seems strange that he wasnt warned and that a point was deducted so fast. I know Lesnar still smashed him back to the ground with a single punch only seconds later but was the standup and point valid or only because this was Brock that everyone hates so much?


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

I was not aware Brock Lesnar had a bandwagon.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

how many fights have you seen where punches are thrown to the back of the head in ground and pound and you can hear the ref warn over and over again, sometimes not at all because the guy taking the beating is twisting into the shots? I think I've seen a hundred or so, many by the same referee. And a point? Hmmm. Barely hits the guy...no warning....point. Go watch the fight all give me the exact words of the announce table.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

That's because I'm the only one on it, LMFAO.


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## burton_o6 (Oct 30, 2007)

The difference being the man doing the damage is over 300lbs of pure muscle...That could do some serious damage.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

I don't think it was a bad call by the ref either- they might have given a more experienced fighter a little more leeway but having such an inexperienced fighter I think he was trying to protect Mir in that position more. 

I am one of the guys that hates WWE and intially I was rooting against Lesnar for that reason. But seeing some of his training and that he is trying to make himself a better fighter is enough for me to give him more respect though. I won't jump on the bandwagon yet but I'm willing to give him a shot though. With his size, wrestling background and athletic ability and with the weakened state of the HW division it will be interesting to see if he continues to improve.


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## Baby Jay D. (Apr 25, 2008)

This is the second thread on the front page with comments about bad reffing in the Mir/Lesnar fight.

Dude tapped. Get over it. He lost the fight. 

On topic, imo he has potential in the HW division tho. His size and power is phenomenal and considering the depth( or lack thereof) in the division mean he could go far. Bring on the herring fight and see what he can go.

BTW i really dislike the guy and hope herring smashes him.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

I won't argue there, but still, no warning and a point? Plus watch the punch placement and speed. Lesnar had no chance to adjust. Usually the warning comes and the striker will adjust. Mir moved towards Lesnar and caused the strikes.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

I actually shouldn't have brought up the Mir issue because it always gets hot and takes away from what I was trying to get at, which is, does anyone even like/repect the guy and/or think he can seriously contend?


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

GMW said:


> I was not aware Brock Lesnar had a bandwagon.


You do now.


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## Zender (Dec 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> how many fights have you seen where punches are thrown to the back of the head in ground and pound and you can hear the ref warn over and over again, sometimes not at all because the guy taking the beating is twisting into the shots? I think I've seen a hundred or so, many by the same referee. And a point? Hmmm. Barely hits the guy...no warning....point. Go watch the fight all give me the exact words of the announce table.


There are times when guys are getting hit with way less power, yes. Brocks hammer fists were like boulders from hell & if I rememeber right (it was a while ago I watched it last) he *was *warned & continued to do them 2 or 3 punches later.

This paranoia that it was a fix is absolute bull. Brock is probably hated as much because he doesn't really have much MMA ability & yet waltzes in to get paid a mint. He needs a hell of a lot of training in striking & sub defence & IMO should be in the smaller (freak) shows for now.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

That's why it's called a bandwagon, lol. People jump on and off all the time


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## jake_schofield (Oct 26, 2007)

i like brock lesnar as grew upwith wwe before mma but do not at all think there was a bad call in the match,the match was stopped fairly to brocks mistake more than all as i remember him getting up he had his back turned so he put it on himself.but seeing his ground and pound game and considering hes a wrestler i think alot of people are gonna be shocked with the outcome of lesnar in the hw division when he was beating mir it looked brutal but he still losted.
i also think mir was quite a challenge for his first fight but thats because he had already built a name for himself through wrestling.
i think his next fight is a good test tosee if lesnar has any mma game at all.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

I can totally see the problem with his payday. NO DOUBT. And I don't think it was a fix either. Mir did a great job in doing what he's paid to do.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

true, mir is a tough 1st ufc match for sure. at least they never fed him punching bags like Mirko.


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## jake_schofield (Oct 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> true, mir is a tough 1st ufc match for sure. at least they never fed him punching bags like Mirko.


lol thats a matchup i could never imagine cro cop v lesnar
you never no though


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

you know if lesnar took him down, crocop would be DEAD....provided he didnt hit Mriko in the back of the head once or twice.


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## burton_o6 (Oct 30, 2007)

He beat Ron Waterman...


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> you know if lesnar took him down, crocop would be DEAD....provided he didnt hit Mriko in the back of the head once or twice.


Yes, but as you probably noticed seeing as you wrote it, it's if he took him down. Even then, I doubt he'd kill CC, his ground isn't terrible defensively. If that fight occurred I think CC would be capable of KO'ing him before he got taken down... provided he starts fighting like his old self.


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> true, mir is a tough 1st ufc match for sure. *at least they never fed him punching bags like Mirko.*


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

it's mma so everythings an IF right. lol. i would pay to see that fight though. its too bad mirko was hand fed a bunch of punching bags for opponents though. would have been more interesting to see him face anyone with some talent and not have lost to a bunch of nobodies.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Min Soo Kim


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> it's mma so everythings an IF right. lol. i would pay to see that fight though. its too bad mirko was hand fed a bunch of punching bags for opponents though. would have been more interesting to see him face anyone with some talent and not have lost to a bunch of nobodies.


So Gabriel Gonzaga has no talent? That's news to me.

Brock gets so much hate because he came into the UFC with no experience and is getting payed way more then he deserves while real fighters who have been busting their ass for years to finally get their shot get it and make $10,000 if they are lucky. It's not right.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Gabriel WHO? Is that the guy who is 9-3 with a 2 fight losing streak, 3 overall losses came to real fighters, 8 wins over nobodies and a fluke kick against a washed up croatian? Oh THAT GUY! Hahaha.


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

Lesnar was warned about strikes to the back of the head. The ref gave a very detailed explanation of why he took a point off and it made perfect sense. Search the threads about his first fight and you'll be able to find it.

As for hate, Lesnar gets some for "skipping" the normal route of fighting lesser guys in a smaller org before getting a big payday in a big show but overall he doesn't get as much hate as you'd expect on here. Why? Because he didn't pull a Kimbo, he is fighting real opponents, not cans. 

When someone can bring in tens of thousands of extra ppv's and is willing to step into the cage with a guy like Mir in his first UFC fight then I don't mind him getting paid what he does. He earned it.


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

mjbish23 said:


> Brock gets so much hate because he came into the UFC with no experience and is getting payed way more then he deserves while real fighters who have been busting their ass for years to finally get their shot get it and make $10,000 if they are lucky. It's not right.


Couple things, first he deserves every penny. Fighters in the UFC get paid based on their drawing power, while this isn't necessarily fair it's business. Lesnar exposed hundreds of thousands of new fans to MMA and that is what he is being paid for. Second, the biggest reason people hate on Lesnar is because they are MMA snobs looking down their nose at pro-wrestlers. It's apples and oranges people, it's like being mad at Stallone for playing Rambo. 
Back on subject, I won't go into the ref controversy because it was WAY hashed out back in February and nobody needs their Steve Assagatti hate stoked. Lesnar has monster potential, he is the strongest, fastest and biggest HW in the UFC. If he has a strong chin, he will be the champ in the next two or three years.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Gabriel WHO? Is that the guy who is 9-3 with a 2 fight losing streak, 3 overall losses came to real fighters, 8 wins over nobodies and a fluke kick against a washed up croatian? Oh THAT GUY! Hahaha.


He's lost to Randy and Werdum twice. That really isn't that bad. Randy has beaten tons of top guys and Werdum has been with some of the best as well. You really can't think that Gonzaga is a nobody. He isn't someone like Nog or Fedor but he isn't terrible either.



cplmac said:


> Couple things, first he deserves every penny. Fighters in the UFC get paid based on their drawing power, while this isn't necessarily fair it's business. Lesnar exposed hundreds of thousands of new fans to MMA and that is what he is being paid for. Second, the biggest reason people hate on Lesnar is because they are MMA snobs looking down their nose at pro-wrestlers. It's apples and oranges people, it's like being mad at Stallone for playing Rambo.
> Back on subject, I won't go into the ref controversy because it was WAY hashed out back in February and nobody needs their Steve Assagatti hate stoked. Lesnar has monster potential, he is the strongest, fastest and biggest HW in the UFC. If he has a strong chin, he will be the champ in the next two or three years.


You make a ton of great points and I agree with you that he has the possibility to be great if he gets some bjj defense and has cardio. His wrestling is phenomenal and he seemed to be a fairly good striker too I just don't feel he deserves what he is being paid. The guy is already a millionaire from WWE so why does he need more? Ya he brings in many fans but still I don't think he deserves it just because of his name.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

sorry double post.


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

mjbish23 said:


> The guy is already a millionaire from WWE so why does he need more? Ya he brings in many fans but still I don't think he deserves it just because of his name.


How much money he had going into it shouldn't really be a factor right? I get why people are bent about his pay scale and honestly it makes sense, based on his MMA history and ability he DOESN'T deserve it, that's just not the whole formula for paydays.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> Ok, so I have to admit that this Brock Lesnar thing is getting me interested in the HW division. I also notice many MMA fans bashing him simply because he was a WWE guy but, is the trash talk warranted?


When someone gets paid as much money as Lesnar did immediately after their debut against a nobody opponent and then loses their first fight, that warrants some trash talk.



> Was this another bad reffing deal?


No, it was a stupid decision on the part of the management of the UFC. He's a waste of money and, frankly, a waste of talent, because he refuses to take his training in the skills seriously.

He refuses to put on a gi, he refuses to work on technical muay thai. As a result, he's only proving that he's a master at wasting potential.



> Who thinks he is going to be good for the sport?


Not I.



> I just want to stimulate conversation about Lesnar to see if anyone, aside from me, thinks he could change the HW in a great way.


There are people who do. They don't understand that what has redefined the divisions time and time again has not been brute strength (at least not since Mark Kerr, and even that is debatable), it has been the evolution of skillsets.

Lesnar is, if anything, the opposite of a skillset evolution.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

cplmac said:


> How much money he had going into it shouldn't really be a factor right? I get why people are bent about his pay scale and honestly it makes sense, based on his MMA history and ability he DOESN'T deserve it, that's just not the whole formula for paydays.


I agree with you but I just think the way the UFC decides how people get payed is stupid.


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## Zender (Dec 15, 2006)

cplmac said:


> Couple things, first he deserves every penny. Fighters in the UFC get paid based on their drawing power, while this isn't necessarily fair it's business. Lesnar exposed hundreds of thousands of new fans to MMA and that is what he is being paid for. Second, the biggest reason people hate on Lesnar is because they are MMA snobs looking down their nose at pro-wrestlers. It's apples and oranges people, it's like being mad at Stallone for playing Rambo.
> Back on subject, I won't go into the ref controversy because it was WAY hashed out back in February and nobody needs their Steve Assagatti hate stoked. Lesnar has monster potential, he is the strongest, fastest and biggest HW in the UFC. If he has a strong chin, he will be the champ in the next two or three years.


I don't think he does deserve every penny. MMA has been trying to get recognised as a legitimate sport. Hiring freak shows like Lesnar & then say, "oh, it's bringing in the fans" totally contradicts sporting integrity. Lesnar's striking is shocking btw, he's got loads of power (which we all knew anyway), that's how he knocked Mir on his ass but it's all arm punches, there wasn't an Oz of decent technique. I'm not saying he has no potential, far from it but in no way does he 'deserve' to be in the UFC.

Just for the record, Mir looked pretty terrible in the fights before Lesnar. This talk about a legitimate test is a bit exaggerated IMO.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

IronMan said:


> When someone gets paid as much money as Lesnar did immediately after their debut against a nobody opponent and then loses their first fight, that warrants some trash talk.
> 
> 
> No, it was a stupid decision on the part of the management of the UFC. He's a waste of money and, frankly, a waste of talent, because he refuses to take his training in the skills seriously.
> ...


Money has nothing to do with it. Quit whining.

Waste of money as in brings in new fans, sells tickets, attracts PPV watchers, sells merchandise?.....what a waste of money. Talent...NCAA Champion, Million Dollar Pro-Wrestler, Phenomenal Athlete. Waste of talent? I smell a hater with nothing to back it up.

Spends thousands bringing MMA trainers to his gym to increase his skillset, 2 and 3 a days for a HW and he gets shit for a GI? Ouch.

So very wise.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> Money has nothing to do with it. Quit whining.
> 
> Waste of money as in brings in new fans, sells tickets, attracts PPV watchers, sells merchandise?.....what a waste of money. Talent...NCAA Champion, Million Dollar Pro-Wrestler, Phenomenal Athlete. Waste of talent? I smell a hater with nothing to back it up.
> 
> ...


If Ironman says something he can definitely pose an argument to back it up. Probably shouldn't talk down to one of the most knowledgeable members of the forum.
Pro-wrestler does not mean anything to MMA, his amateur wrestling credentials are really impressive though.
As far as pay, It's not really a right or wrong, just depends on how you view, how pay should be handled. It's split between, pay for talent or pay for sells.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> Gabriel WHO? Is that the guy who is 9-3 with a 2 fight losing streak, 3 overall losses came to real fighters, 8 wins over nobodies and a fluke kick against a washed up croatian? Oh THAT GUY! Hahaha.


You're on the bandwagon for a fighter with a 1-1 record who's win is over a Korean guy no one has ever heard of and a loss to Frank f*cking Mir. I like Frank and even I won't say that he's the cream of the crop in the heavyweight division. He's not even top ten.



nissassagame said:


> Money has nothing to do with it. Quit whining.


What do you mean "money has nothing to do with it?"

The only argument you can make for Lesnar is that he brings in money.

He's not a good fighter from a technical standpoint.

He doesn't have any experience or historical significance (like bringing back Royce Gracie, which was a stupid move for other reasons).

He doesn't even have a the top wrestling in the division, and if you put him in with Couture or Barnett or Kerr, his big ass would get completely destroyed.



> Waste of money as in brings in new fans, sells tickets, attracts PPV watchers, sells merchandise?.....what a waste of money. Talent...NCAA Champion, Million Dollar Pro-Wrestler, Phenomenal Athlete. Waste of talent? I smell a hater with nothing to back it up.


Lesnar brought in new fans for one fight. Who's going to be excited about the guy now? (I mean, aside from delusional idiots like yourself)

He's an NCAA champion and a phenomenal athlete.

OK, there are two things wrong with that statement.

First, you act like being an NCAA champion matters in this division. It hasn't mattered since Kerr and Coleman were fighting in the UFC HW division. Without striking and submission skills, it doesn't matter.

Koscheck is an NCAA champion. So what? He won't fight for a title. And neither will Lesnar.

Phenomenal athlete?

He's big and strong. I'll give you that. So was Kerr (who I've used as an analogy before). You act like being big and thick and strong matters in this sport.

Hey, numbnuts, remember that "washed up Croatian." He knocked out a former football player and pro-wrestler who was credited with being bigger and stronger and one of the next big things in the sport.

Guess what:

If you don't know how to use them, the muscles don't matter.



> Spends thousands bringing MMA trainers to his gym to increase his skillset, 2 and 3 a days for a HW and he gets shit for a GI? Ouch.


Did you watch the AllAccess episode for any reason other than to masturbate?

Come on, man. This guy doesn't know what it means to train for MMA. He doesn't get that working with guys who you pay alot doesn't mean they'll know things.

I could go down to San Diego and pay 85 bucks for a month of classes with Xande Ribiero and learn more about jiu-jitsu than Lesnar learned in his entire training camp with the dumbbells he hired.

You'll notice that Lesnar didn't go and work with Greg Jackson. He didn't go and work with a Dutch kickboxing monster like Peter Aerts. He didn't do the things that a smart fighter would have done to train.

Instead, he hired a bunch of guys who would let him train how he wanted, let him build up his strength and work on a little boxing, thinking he could sprawl and brawl his way to a title, and he got caught in a kneebar.

Lesnar doesn't know what training for MMA looks like, and if you knew anything about the sport you'd find that it's clear he didn't do it, just from watching that episode of All Access. You were having too much fun playing with yourself to get that, though.



> So very wise.


I don't pretend to know everything, but I predicted Lesnar's loss and I knew why he would lose, and why he will lose against substantial opponents until he sucks it up and goes to train with someone who knows what they're doing.

He wants to coast on his skills, that's fine. Like I said, as long as he's doing that, he'll never fight for a UFC title and he'll never beat a top ten opponent.


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

The only thing in IronMan's post that makes me do a double take is the Gi. WTF does a gi have to do with MMA? Royce Gracie proved that a gi is a crutch, no way should an MMA fighter train with one.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

IronMan said:


> You're on the bandwagon for a fighter with a 1-1 record who's win is over a Korean guy no one has ever heard of and a loss to Frank f*cking Mir. I like Frank and even I won't say that he's the cream of the crop in the heavyweight division. He's not even top ten.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can we call Lesnar a money maker for the UFC yet? I think we will have to wait another fight or two to see because I think a lot of people probably ordered it to see how he would do in his first fight in the UFC.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

cplmac said:


> The only thing in IronMan's post that makes me do a double take is the Gi. WTF does a gi have to do with MMA? Royce Gracie proved that a gi is a crutch, no way should an MMA fighter train with one.


That confused me too.
Care to delve deeper into the use of a GI for training in MMA, Ironman?


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

First off with the guy who started the thread. I'm also a huge lesnar fan cause i used to watch WWE, but there was NO bad reffing in that fight. Mir said that he heard mazagatti saying watch the back of the head, whether we did or didnt, i'll take his word for it. 2nd He got caught simple as that and it was his fault.

To Ironman: I respect your posts, since you do back them up, but i reckon you may be going over the top. I understand that you're angry cause he didn't need to go through the steps to become a headliner in the UFC, but as ppl have said b4, he sells, hell i would say that if he debuted on the same night as the affliction card, that the UFC would still get more sales (from a casual fan POV, pretty likely). so why wouldn't they market him as best as you can. I also refuse to believe that while you were watching that fight, you didn't believe that Brock didn't have a HUGE chance of winning, he was dropping those bombs, and got caught. He's still green, let him develop into an MMA fighter. After the Mir fight he is now starting Jiu-Jitsu, a little to late. But fighters can benefit from losses as much as they do from wins, even more then a win possibly, from a technical point of view. Look at GSP, he got beaten by Serra, wised up, and destroyed him. Brock just needs more time to become a proper MMA fighter.

Obviously in MMA Technique comes before strength, but ill be damned if you say that he doesn't know how to use it. considering his pedigree is from wrestling (not WWE , Ameteur) obviously his pick of poison will be ground and pound, and i refuse to think that he has shit GnP. That was some seriously awesome hammer fists he was throwing at Mir. Lets say he beats Herring in UFC 87 (I reckon he will after watching the Kongo fight), would you give him at least some sort of credibility?

And yeah i do agree, you do put him against a top 10 HW (Barnett and Cotoure) he would get destroyed, considering they HAVE had a shit load more experience then Brock (11 years more for Cotoure, and i reckon his wrestling credentials are a bit better then Brocks ) but no-one is saying that.
But i prefer the treatment that Brock is getting as opposed to the Kimbo treatment, lets put brock against a can and call him the best GnPer in the world? I don't think so. The UFC is trying to make this 'freak show' into a credible athlete, and brocks doing the same. It's not like he's practicing giving F5's to people, he's actually training, and you seem to reject that notion, while i agree he should be at a different camp (i personally would like to see him at Xtreme Cotoure) he is still training none-the-less


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Wow this bandwagon thing is getting played out. I started mine as a fun little thing and now it seems like every fighter has a thread.

Also I will allow Ironman to go deeper into it but you lose a lot of the technique involved in BJJ when you only train no gi under the wrong master. I mean it's not like Lesnar is training under Eddie Bravo.


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## ash (Oct 15, 2006)

IronMan, whats ironic about your post is that you have Frank Mir all over your sig, avatar, etc. It's obvious that Frank Mir has respect for Brock from his many interviews, and he probably knows a hell of a lot more about the man than you do. 

The truth is that Brock is going to put asses in seats. He's exciting to watch and he's well known, which is more than you can say about many of the other guys who have been at it in the game for a long time. People might not like it, but the fact is that making money is what the UFC is about. It's the reason the UFC is still around and PRIDE isn't. 

As for Lesnar's ability, I think your bias is so obviuos it hardly needs to be commented on. Being an NCAA champ doesn't amount to anything? Are you kidding? Being a NCAA champ might not get you right to the title, but to discount such an accomplishment smells of bias. You make it sound like his wrestling ability and physical ability (which is undoubtedly in another league from 99% of the other heavyweights) are totally useless. Do you really, really believe that?

I agree that Brock needs to have a diverse training regime, and I honestly believe that after the Mir fight Brock is probably trying to switch a lot of things up. Brock's no idiot, and he's not in there to lose. I guess we'll find out at UFC 87. And you're an expert on his training and mindset because you watched the Lesnar All Access? You've got to be kidding...

One last thing, and this is why I wrote this all to begin with. Quote:

"Who's going to be excited about the guy now? (I mean, aside from delusional idiots like yourself)"

I get excited about the guy and believe he has potential be be the champ, so I'm an idiot? Please, save the righteous BS. There are few things more pathetic than a moderator on the internet trying to convince himself that he's something special by putting down other people. I don't agree with his tact, but nissassagame said that you're whining and what do you do? Respond with more whining? Start generalizing people who you happen to disagree with?

EDIT: Best Anon neg rep ever! "idiot" ha!


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Gabriel WHO? Is that the guy who is 9-3 with a 2 fight losing streak, 3 overall losses came to real fighters, 8 wins over nobodies and a fluke kick against a washed up croatian? Oh THAT GUY! Hahaha.


I don't see what's wrong with Gonzaga losing to Randy and Werdum. Randy was the champ when Gabe fought him, and Werdum will be getting a title shot in all likelihood. The fact that you think the Cro Cop win was a fluke really tells me how much you know about MMA (not too much).


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## thunder (Jun 18, 2007)

on the gi...

ive read people like marc laimon and diego sanchez advocating it because it slows you down.. takes away alot of your power advantages (which you might not have in a fight) and makes you 'solve' the problems with good technique. also when you take it off you'll feel the difference in your explosiveness.. sort of like shadow boxing with dumbells


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

That was such garbage, I don't even know where to begin. Actually when you attack me personally and cry like a bitch you lose all credibility in my books. I don't think anyone with a brain would honestly speak in such a fashion and if you do know so much, you clearly don't believe what you are saying and/or just like to type for provocation purposes only. It's pretty biased and sad. You go take a vallium, take a few deep ones, relax and ponder the uselessness of your pointless ravings.


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

Ironman, I agreed with you but honestly, I do think that one day, Koscheck is going to challenge for the title.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> That was such garbage, I don't even know where to begin. Actually when you attack me personally and cry like a bitch you lose all credibility in my books. I don't think anyone with a brain would honestly speak in such a fashion and if you do know so much, you clearly don't believe what you are saying and/or just like to type for provocation purposes only. It's pretty biased and sad. You go take a vallium, take a few deep ones, relax and ponder the uselessness of your pointless ravings.


Ironman is one of the most respected posters in this forum. He is great at debating and you were asking for trouble when you tried to debate him that's why you had to resort to this useless post. I would admit you don't know what you are talking about and try to save face a lil.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

I'm just curious to see what people think and provoking conversation really. I understand he viewpoint on the shots to the back of the head. I think many others felt it was premature to take the point and stand it up. Also, I always credited Mir and he put a beautiful sub together. I just find most of the haters, just hate, with no valid reasons.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

I don't think anyone hates him blindly. 
It falls under a few categories;
1) Most people on this forum deeply care about the sport and feel the way he got into the UFC is disrespecting to the fighters who worked there way up. You can quote his wrestling pedigree and physical abilities but they are not why he got into the UFC.

2) He's a douchebag in interviews. One fight against a nobody and he speaks of how he is sick of fighting tomato cans. That rubs most the wrong way. He's an arrogant guy, with nothing to back it, but a 1-1 record.

There are other reasons, but those are the main two I see.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Most people have given you valid reasons for disliking Brock, such as the fact that he is payed too much, didn't work his way up, doesn't take his training seriously, doesnt train with the people he should etc.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Wawaweewa said:


> I don't see what's wrong with Gonzaga losing to Randy and Werdum. Randy was the champ when Gabe fought him, and Werdum will be getting a title shot in all likelihood. The fact that you think the Cro Cop win was a fluke really tells me how much you know about MMA (not too much).



i understand anything can happen in mma but gonzaga's win over crocop was more than lucky. i read posts after the fight on several sites and even after the fight gonzaga was considered a joke. the fact that you think gonzaga is anything more than a glorified punching bag shows how much you know about mma(SFA).


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

wow, an ironman fan. next time you guys hook up tell tony stark i said hi.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> That was such garbage, I don't even know where to begin. Actually when you attack me personally and cry like a bitch you lose all credibility in my books. I don't think anyone with a brain would honestly speak in such a fashion and if you do know so much, you clearly don't believe what you are saying and/or just like to type for provocation purposes only. It's pretty biased and sad. You go take a vallium, take a few deep ones, relax and ponder the uselessness of your pointless ravings.


I'm whining and bitching? I have anger issues?

Oh, yeah, and I'm the one making this personal. You wanted to have a debate, so debate me.

I've dealt with this crap before. You get offended because I made a joke at your expense, then you storm off and act like you've won a moral victory.

I put my points out there. If you want to debate, debate. If not, I'll point out what you are (a Brock Lesnar nuthugger with no understanding of what it means to train and compete in this sport) and be on my way.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> i understand anything can happen in mma but gonzaga's win over crocop was more than lucky. i read posts after the fight on several sites and even after the fight gonzaga was considered a joke. the fact that you think gonzaga is anything more than a glorified punching bag shows how much you know about mma(SFA).


It was sort of lucky, in the sense that, he faced a lack luster cro cop, but that doesn't mean during the fight, and in other fights, he did not fight very well. 
He has an accomplished ground game, he's really strong and tough, he's mentally there, his striking is sloppy but powerful, making it a threat. 
He's no Fedor, but in the state of the heavyweight division, he's damn good.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> i understand anything can happen in mma but gonzaga's win over crocop was more than lucky. i read posts after the fight on several sites and even after the fight gonzaga was considered a joke. the fact that you think gonzaga is anything more than a glorified punching bag shows how much you know about mma(SFA).


The kick was not lucky at all. Gonzaga was winning the fight the whole time before he KOed Mirko



nissassagame said:


> wow, an ironman fan. next time you guys hook up tell tony stark i said hi.


Some of us just have respect for many of the posters here who have great opinions. With an attitude like your's you won't last long or gain much respect.


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

mjbish23 said:


> The kick was not lucky at all. Gonzaga was winning the fight the whole time before he KOed Mirko
> 
> 
> 
> Some of us just have respect for many of the posters here who have great opinions. With an attitude like your's you won't last long or gain much respect.


Personally, I'm a fan of Damone's posts.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> i understand anything can happen in mma but gonzaga's win over crocop was more than lucky. i read posts after the fight on several sites and even after the fight gonzaga was considered a joke. the fact that you think gonzaga is anything more than a glorified punching bag shows how much you know about mma(SFA).


How was it lucky? If he had been losing and then threw the kick, you would almost have a point, but even then it would be wrong, because he meant to throw the kick, and it hit. His leg didn't get there by accident. But that isn't the case. He dominated every second of that fight. He caught Cro Cop's kick, took him down, hit him with elbows until he couldn't see straight, and then knocked him out. So what about this was lucky?

How is a fighter whose only losses were to top fighters a "joke"?


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

I think the pay issue is more the UFC's fault than anything else. Not paying his dues, I can understand, but again is HE to blame? As far as his training is concerned, one all access program really shows us nothing and I don't think any of us could claim he works less or more seriously than anyone else.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> i understand anything can happen in mma but gonzaga's win over crocop was more than lucky. i read posts after the fight on several sites and even after the fight gonzaga was considered a joke. the fact that you think gonzaga is anything more than a glorified punching bag shows how much you know about mma(SFA).


Gonzaga is a joke?

Next thing you know you'll be calling CroCop a joke. Then you'll be calling Nogueira a joke. (after all, CroCop beat him out in the Open Weight Gran Prix, even if they didn't fight)

If you think that Gonzaga was being called a joke when he stepped out of that fight with CroCop them you should really watch the analysis leading up to his fight with Couture.

Oh, and most analysts (not just me, not just the guys on the forum) though that Gonzaga was a favorite going in with Couture.

Your hindsight is clouding your memory. Go back and read the stuff that people were writing going into that fight and you'll find that no one thought he was a joke, and very few people think he's a joke now.

Am I the only person who thinks it's bizarre that a guy would take Brock Lesnar, a guy with two fights and a .500 record, seriously and calls Gabriel Gonzaga, a guy who's 9-3 and has fought three of the best heavyweights in the sport, a joke?


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

SlaveTrade said:


> Personally, I'm a fan of Damone's posts.


Me too. I'm a fan of pretty much every payed members posts and some of the non paid members too.


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

mjbish23 said:


> Me too. I'm a fan of pretty much every payed members posts and some of the non paid members too.


Oh definitely. Around my circle of friends, I have no one to really discuss MMA with but over here, we have so many people that really know the sport, which is why I love this place.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I think the pay issue is more the UFC's fault than anything else. Not paying his dues, I can understand, but again is HE to blame? As far as his training is concerned, one all access program really shows us nothing and I don't think any of us could claim he works less or more seriously than anyone else.


No, they aren't his fault. But isn't like he tried going through the proper channels, and the UFC came to him. He made it clear from the beginning, I'll be the guy who will beat Fedor, you need me UFC management. 
UFC all access is one day of training. I have a feeling, if anything, people work especially hard on those days, since they are being filmed. Again, if anything, it means he works that hard every day, or less, imo. 



IronMan said:


> Am I the only person who thinks it's bizarre that a guy would take Brock Lesnar, a guy with two fights and a .500 record, seriously and calls Gabriel Gonzaga, a guy who's 9-3 and has fought three of the best heavyweights in the sport, a joke?


Makes his opinion questionable, but I'm just an Ironman nuthugger who wants to talk to tony stark...


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

SlaveTrade said:


> Oh definitely. Around my circle of friends, I have no one to really discuss MMA with but over here, we have so many people that really know the sport, which is why I love this place.


Me too. Any of my friends that I can talk mma with have no idea what the are actually talking about and are just your typical casual fans. MMAF is awesome because there are so many people that love the sport and so many great people to talk about it with.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

I'm not offended. Merely humoured by you and that "debate" attempt. Nor do I feel like a victor of anything. Nor am I anywhere but here. So you read me incorrectly on 3 fronts. If you want to debate on an appropriate level than maybe you should stay to the topic and defend your points as opposed to acting like a 5 year old. Hey, I understand why anyone would respect your opinions as before you started being a clown, I found what you were saying to be somewhat reasonable despite not being in total agreement(hence, the debate). I'm not here for a shit fest but you too it there and ruined a decent conversation.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I'm not offended. Merely humoured by you and that "debate" attempt. Nor do I feel like a victor of anything. Nor am I anywhere but here. So you read me incorrectly on 3 fronts. If you want to debate on an appropriate level than maybe you should stay to the topic and defend your points as opposed to acting like a 5 year old. Hey, I understand why anyone would respect your opinions as before you started being a clown, I found what you were saying to be somewhat reasonable despite not being in total agreement(hence, the debate). I'm not here for a shit fest but you too it there and ruined a decent conversation.


He made a bunch of points, but we've gone ridiculously off topic. Just go to his last post relevant to the topic and give your opinion of it.

*Last couple pages of this thread make it clear, an Ironman bandwagon thread is necessary.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I'm a huge Ironman fan btw. The reason I like him is that he will bring the best out of you in a debate and won't let you slide on the facts. Plus he brings up great points.

Now he and I have disagreed. I will bring up the arguement he and I had before Werdum vs Gonzaga. He and I disagreed on Werdum vs Gonzaga's and Werdum's stand up skill. And the thing about it was unlike with some posters we had a exchange, debated and then dropped it. The way you are acing to Ironman is retarted.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

my apologies man. i respect your opinion and i'm just jesting. i just don't think backing someone up "just because" they have your respect means they cant make stupid statements like ironman did when the convo was decent and turned it into a shit fest.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

He never turned it into a shitfest. He addressed all of your points and gave his opinion and you must not have liked how he did that because you started attacking him. 

It doesn't really matter anymore though because this thread has gone way off topic. If you want to continue debating then pick someones post and give your opinions.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Well I was at no point comparing Gonzo to Lesnar first of all. They are both the product of hype though. Let's face it, he beat CroCop and the UFC tried to sell him big time, and alot of people bought it. I certainly never had any thought that he would do anything but lie down for Randy. As for Lesnar, hes not great by any means. He is 1-1 after all, but all the hate is hilarious and mostly unrealistic. I'm not blind, he isn't that great but he certainly has potential and is fun to watch. In a division that just smells of crap, he is an opportunity for hope.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

ok, so calling me a nuthugger and being a dick isnt shitfesting. sorry, i thought it would be an asshole of me if i started calling everyone a ***, a nuthugger and god knows what else.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

i was fine until he started with the name calling and off topic ranting.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> ok, so calling me a nuthugger and being a dick isnt shitfesting. sorry, i thought it would be an asshole of me if i started calling everyone a ***, a nuthugger and god knows what else.


If I was you I would stop because you are on your way to being :bye02:


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

cplmac said:


> The only thing in IronMan's post that makes me do a double take is the Gi. WTF does a gi have to do with MMA? Royce Gracie proved that a gi is a crutch, no way should an MMA fighter train with one.


I was making a point that he needed to learn the fundamentals of jiu-jitsu.

For the record, every great grappler in the sport puts on the gi. Even Koscheck.



The Legend said:


> Can we call Lesnar a money maker for the UFC yet? I think we will have to wait another fight or two to see because I think a lot of people probably ordered it to see how he would do in his first fight in the UFC.


I would say that his first fight made a great deal of money proportional to his experience in the sport. Not necessarily proportionally to what they paid him, given that they could have signed a half-dozen guys for that much who would have dragged in a much bigger crowd.

But all of that's debatable.



Suizida said:


> To Ironman: I respect your posts, since you do back them up, but i reckon you may be going over the top. I understand that you're angry cause he didn't need to go through the steps to become a headliner in the UFC, but as ppl have said b4, he sells, hell i would say that if he debuted on the same night as the affliction card, that the UFC would still get more sales (from a casual fan POV, pretty likely). so why wouldn't they market him as best as you can. I also refuse to believe that while you were watching that fight, you didn't believe that Brock didn't have a HUGE chance of winning, he was dropping those bombs, and got caught. He's still green, let him develop into an MMA fighter. After the Mir fight he is now starting Jiu-Jitsu, a little to late. But fighters can benefit from losses as much as they do from wins, even more then a win possibly, from a technical point of view. Look at GSP, he got beaten by Serra, wised up, and destroyed him. Brock just needs more time to become a proper MMA fighter.


You know, after watching Sylvia get his arm snapped in half, I have never doubted Frank's ability to break down a bigger, stronger fighter with a quick submission that no one sees coming.

Was I surprised that he beat Lesnar? No.

Was I impressed that he came from behind the way he did? A little.

Was I shocked by any of it? No.

I expected Brock to finish strong and lay it on thick. I expected Brock to make a mistake. I expected Brock to get caught. I expected Brock to lose.



> Obviously in MMA Technique comes before strength, but ill be damned if you say that he doesn't know how to use it. considering his pedigree is from wrestling (not WWE , Ameteur) obviously his pick of poison will be ground and pound, and i refuse to think that he has shit GnP. That was some seriously awesome hammer fists he was throwing at Mir. Lets say he beats Herring in UFC 87 (I reckon he will after watching the Kongo fight), would you give him at least some sort of credibility?


If he beats Herring decisively, I'll give him some credibility. Sure.

Will I call him a future champ? No.

Honestly, there's no evidence that he's taking his jiu-jitsu seriously. He's not going to work with good guys, or with a top team.

The problem is that when he steps in against Herring he's fighting a guy who can catch him everywhere, but more than that he's fighting a guy he gives up reach to, a guy he gives up experience to and a guy he gives up technical skill to.

That's not where you want to be when you step in the cage, as much muscle as you might have.

Herring is coming into this fight having fought the best fighters in the world, bar none. He's not in his prime anymore, but until Brock proves that he can beat a top tier fighter, Herring has more respect from me for stepping in with those guys.



> But i prefer the treatment that Brock is getting as opposed to the Kimbo treatment, lets put brock against a can and call him the best GnPer in the world? I don't think so. The UFC is trying to make this 'freak show' into a credible athlete, and brocks doing the same. It's not like he's practicing giving F5's to people, he's actually training, and you seem to reject that notion, while i agree he should be at a different camp (i personally would like to see him at Xtreme Cotoure) he is still training none-the-less


Don't get me started on Kimbo.



ash said:


> IronMan, whats ironic about your post is that you have Frank Mir all over your sig, avatar, etc. It's obvious that Frank Mir has respect for Brock from his many interviews, and he probably knows a hell of a lot more about the man than you do.


The sig and avi are remnants of something that the staff did with the preferred members. Don't talk about things you don't understand.

As for Frank knowing more about Brock than I do, you're inclined to believe whatever you want.

Frank showed respect (and shows respect) to Brock because he wants people to see the guy as a legit opponent because that's the entire basis for his title shot.

I like Frank, but I'm not delusional. Brock Lesnar is the source of all of his credibility stepping in with Nog right now. (and, for the record, he shouldn't be getting that title shot)



> The truth is that Brock is going to put asses in seats. He's exciting to watch and he's well known, which is more than you can say about many of the other guys who have been at it in the game for a long time. People might not like it, but the fact is that making money is what the UFC is about. It's the reason the UFC is still around and PRIDE isn't.


This really shows how little you know about the sport and the buyout, man.

The reason the UFC is around and Pride isn't is because Pride turned itself into an illegal enterprise and brought in their own money problems. They had no problems putting asses in the seats, trust me.



> As for Lesnar's ability, I think your bias is so obviuos it hardly needs to be commented on. Being an NCAA champ doesn't amount to anything? Are you kidding? Being a NCAA champ might not get you right to the title, but to discount such an accomplishment smells of bias. You make it sound like his wrestling ability and physical ability (which is undoubtedly in another league from 99% of the other heavyweights) are totally useless. Do you really, really believe that?


Wrestling ability gets the fight to the ground, it doesn't show you what to do when you get there.

It's why the only NCAA champion still considered a top fighter in his division has spent his entire career learning other skills.

I'm not saying that they are useless, I'm saying that they will not carry Brock Lesnar to a title. Ever.

If you think that Brock Lesnar can beat anyone in the heavyweight top ten without serious jiu-jitsu and kickboxing training, speak up, because I'd love to hear that argument.



> I agree that Brock needs to have a diverse training regime, and I honestly believe that after the Mir fight Brock is probably trying to switch a lot of things up. Brock's no idiot, and he's not in there to lose. I guess we'll find out at UFC 87. And you're an expert on his training and mindset because you watched the Lesnar All Access? You've got to be kidding...


Did you ever read my post?

It's clear he didn't work his jiu-jitsu. It's clear he didn't seriously train his boxing and kickboxing.

I don't need to be an expert on his training to know that. I know what training looks like, and that's sufficient.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> ok, so calling me a nuthugger and being a dick isnt shitfesting. sorry, i thought it would be an asshole of me if i started calling everyone a ***, a nuthugger and god knows what else.


You admitted to being a nuthugger when you said you were on his bandwagon. I'm a BJ nuthugger and I don't care. Nuthugger isn't always a bad term. He wasn't being a dick either he was addressing your points but you didn't like how he did it. I would listen to bbjd though because this isn't turning out very well for you. I'm done with this now too.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

do you think they show anything too revealing on all access. i dont think they would want to show too much on those shoots but i could be wrong. and to say he's a dick on camera...arent most of the fighters bigmouths on camera?


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I'm not offended. Merely humoured by you and that "debate" attempt. Nor do I feel like a victor of anything. Nor am I anywhere but here. So you read me incorrectly on 3 fronts. If you want to debate on an appropriate level than maybe you should stay to the topic and defend your points as opposed to acting like a 5 year old. Hey, I understand why anyone would respect your opinions as before you started being a clown, I found what you were saying to be somewhat reasonable despite not being in total agreement(hence, the debate). I'm not here for a shit fest but you too it there and ruined a decent conversation.


I'm going to warn you for swearing now. So we're clear.

I did defend my points, and I made more.

I'm still waiting for your response.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> do you think they show anything too revealing on all access. i dont think they would want to show too much on those shoots but i could be wrong. and to say he's a dick on camera...arent most of the fighters bigmouths on camera?


They don't usually give game plans, but they don't hide training techniques, styles, etc. And if others do, what they show is still 10x's more compelling then what Lesnar does. It's obvious Lesnar is serious about MMA, he just isn't willing to make the personal sacrifice to truly be a UFC champion. There is nothing wrong with that, it's just difficult to say otherwise.

It's hard for me to put in words the difference between the way Lesnar talks and the way others do, outside of the obvious fact, the other people we here talk like that are usually contenders, or are working there way up to the a title shot. You almost never hear a first timer in the UFC say, I'll dominate the "insert current champion in a division", you hear, this guy im fighting isn't good enough for me; let alone saying they would beat the best HW of all time.
I've never once heard anyone say they are sick of fighting cans after one fight, and presumably (nothing to back this) no amateur fights.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Who knows right? Only Lesnar. I just assume its trash talk and attention seeking and it's fair for others to take it seriously if they want. I would never lose respect for a fighter because he had a big mouth though.


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## ash (Oct 15, 2006)

IronMan said:


> The sig and avi are remnants of something that the staff did with the preferred members. Don't talk about things you don't understand.
> 
> As for Frank knowing more about Brock than I do, you're inclined to believe whatever you want.


I am inclined to believe that. Can you tell me otherwise with a straight face?



IronMan said:


> This really shows how little you know about the sport and the buyout, man.
> 
> The reason the UFC is around and Pride isn't is because Pride turned itself into an illegal enterprise and brought in their own money problems. They had no problems putting asses in the seats, trust me.


My point was that it was a money issue, not whether they signed legit competitors or not. UFC wants to make money, Brock is likely to do it for them.



IronMan said:


> Wrestling ability gets the fight to the ground, it doesn't show you what to do when you get there.
> 
> It's why the only NCAA champion still considered a top fighter in his division has spent his entire career learning other skills.
> 
> ...


No argument there, I agree with your basic point.





IronMan said:


> Did you ever read my post?
> 
> It's clear he didn't work his jiu-jitsu. It's clear he didn't seriously train his boxing and kickboxing.
> 
> I don't need to be an expert on his training to know that. I know what training looks like, and that's sufficient.


Clearly, I did read your post. I just don't understand how you know what Brock's training regime is by watching a 2 minute fight and a one-hour special. The special is obviously not all-inclusive, and the fight showed that he was at least aware of some types of submissions (avoiding an arm bar, etc). What I saw was Brock losing because he got over-anxious, which is probably a sign of him being green, not necessarily his training. In the post-fight he specifically mentioned that he had trained a ton to avoid that sort of thing, and just got caught up in the moment.


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

IronMan said:


> I was making a point that he needed to learn the fundamentals of jiu-jitsu.
> 
> For the record, every great grappler in the sport puts on the gi. Even Koscheck.


If that's the case, and I have no reason to doubt what you're saying, it just makes no sense. I get that it might be like taking practice swings with the donut on your bat, but there are so many advantages when wearing a gi and grappling that you don't get when not wearing one that makes it seem like a bad idea at least strictly for MMA.



ash said:


> What I saw was Brock losing because he got over-anxious, which is probably a sign of him being green, not necessarily his training. In the post-fight he specifically mentioned that he had trained a ton to avoid that sort of thing, and just got caught up in the moment.


Let's not forget Mir is a jitz stud. Lesnar might not have come up the way a lot of people wanted him to, but he deserves a little respect for jumping in the deep end with some talented fighters unlike a certain other HW we know.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

IronMan said:


> You're on the bandwagon for a fighter with a 1-1 record who's win is over a Korean guy no one has ever heard of and a loss to Frank f*cking Mir. I like Frank and even I won't say that he's the cream of the crop in the heavyweight division. He's not even top ten.
> 
> Not so much on the bandwagon as my Thread's topic would indicate but i certainly don't agree with alot of what you are saying. I think losing to Mir in his first UFC match is respectable and taking away what we all saw him show us, I think, is unfair.
> 
> ...


I hope you are still here when he gets the shot. I'll be the first to say hello.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> I hope you are still here when he gets the shot. I'll be the first to say hello.


He takes his time to type up all of that and that's all you have to say to it? I don't think you know how to debate.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Wrestling ability gets the fight to the ground, it doesn't show you what to do when you get there.

It's why the only NCAA champion still considered a top fighter in his division has spent his entire career learning other skills.

I'm not saying that they are useless, I'm saying that they will not carry Brock Lesnar to a title. Ever.

If you think that Brock Lesnar can beat anyone in the heavyweight top ten without serious jiu-jitsu and kickboxing training, speak up, because I'd love to hear that argument.



Did you ever read my post?

It's clear he didn't work his jiu-jitsu. It's clear he didn't seriously train his boxing and kickboxing.

I don't need to be an expert on his training to know that. I know what training looks like, and that's sufficient.[/QUOTE]


Again going back to training Ironman. How can you tell so much from 1 minute of a fight? From 1 single minute you can tell me without a doubt that it was his skills or lack of training that got him buried. What about pressure or anxiety. What about Frank possessing vast amounts of skill? Maybe that was a factor? I think you assume too much on this topic. I believe you may know quite a bit about MMA but you really are strething it on this one.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> He takes his time to type up all of that and that's all you have to say to it? I don't think you know how to debate.


you actually took time to type that to me? wow.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> Again going back to training Ironman. How can you tell so much from 1 minute of a fight? From 1 single minute you can tell me without a doubt that it was his skills or lack of training that got him buried. What about pressure or anxiety. What about Frank possessing vast amounts of skill? Maybe that was a factor? I think you assume too much on this topic. I believe you may know quite a bit about MMA but you really are strething it on this one.


The fact the fight was one minute shows a lot actually. How often do you see someone submitted in a mere one minute, while in a dominate position?



nissassagame said:


> you actually took time to type that to me? wow.


Seemed like a fair thing to say.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

thanks IRONMAN. i know he will actually answer the question unlike some. WOW.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> thanks IRONMAN. i know he will actually answer the question unlike some. WOW.


You haven't even responded to one of my posts that I saw, I answered/responded to several posts, and I added something about what you just wrote. Stop bein ignit


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

i mean, you just made a comment on something i said to ironman....why not tell us what the one minute revealed to you?


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> you actually took time to type that to me? wow.


Ya I did so what. I could say the same about what you wrote.

Once you take the time to actually write out something valid and make good points then i'll address them but so far you havent said anything worhtwhile.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Look insulting Ironman is one thing. But you don't start talking shit to GMW. That's IMO is enough why are you trying to attack all of the respected members on the forum.

GMW is always willing to discuss MMA with anyone even Acoustic.

If you are serious about talking MMA stop shit talking.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> i mean, you just made a comment on something i said to ironman....why not tell us what the one minute revealed to you?


Off the top of my head, it just showed me, at minimum, he had a very amateur defensive ground game, no technical striking ability, and he doesn't have control with his GnP.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

i responded to you several times.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

GMW said:


> Off the top of my head, it just showed me, at minimum, he had a very amateur defensive ground game, no technical striking ability, and he doesn't have control with his GnP.



yea, i totally agree. although he did strike Mir well to the ground with that stiff jab. I don't think i would blame his loss solely on skills though. I'm no expert but his first octagon fight, plus the way the first 30 seconds went, he was probably flustered. I think Mir won with skill and composure and Brock lost with lack of defensive knowledge and lack of composure(being a NOOB). I certainly wouldnt blame it on his training. I wasnt there so I can't say what he practiced.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I hope you are still here when he gets the shot. I'll be the first to say hello.


And if that happens, you're welcome to. I imagine that will be about the same time that Bobby Lashley claims his title as the first WEC heavyweight champion.



ash said:


> I am inclined to believe that. Can you tell me otherwise with a straight face?


I can type it.

In fact, I am typing it right now.

I'm pretty sure my face is straight, but that's a really wierd thing to say when we're not having this conversation in person.

I'm confused by whatever point you're trying to make. Do you think I'm not serious?



> My point was that it was a money issue, not whether they signed legit competitors or not. UFC wants to make money, Brock is likely to do it for them.


That's a debatably point, but it's not grounds to say "Brock Lesnar is the next big thing in the sport."

He's not a top tier heavyweight. 



> Clearly, I did read your post. I just don't understand how you know what Brock's training regime is by watching a 2 minute fight and a one-hour special. The special is obviously not all-inclusive, and the fight showed that he was at least aware of some types of submissions (avoiding an arm bar, etc). What I saw was Brock losing because he got over-anxious, which is probably a sign of him being green, not necessarily his training. In the post-fight he specifically mentioned that he had trained a ton to avoid that sort of thing, and just got caught up in the moment.


It's not like he didn't talk very openly about what and who he was training with. He trained with Miletich briefly and at Minnesota MA, but his coaching staff never kept it a secret that he wasn't training hardcore jiu-jitsu and he wasn't training muay thai.

Are you telling me that you think Lesnar adopted Vale Tudo training?

Are you telling me that you think he was planning to work submissions and submission defense?

It was never a secret what Lesnar was doing with his training. We have his fight as evidence, we have All Access as evidence. We also have everything that he said leading up to the fight with Mir.



nissassagame said:


> Again going back to training Ironman. How can you tell so much from 1 minute of a fight? From 1 single minute you can tell me without a doubt that it was his skills or lack of training that got him buried. What about pressure or anxiety. What about Frank possessing vast amounts of skill? Maybe that was a factor? I think you assume too much on this topic. I believe you may know quite a bit about MMA but you really are strething it on this one.


I'm going to lump this in with the above post.

It's not what I know about Brock from his fight. If that was all that we had to judge a fighter on, then I would have to watch fighters for years before I started making picks with any hard evidence.

There's a reason I picked Brock to lose to Mir, even when the only tape of him fighting was of him beating an unknown opponent through the canvas, while Frank had been beaten and we know how he can be beaten.

I'm not saying Frank isn't a great fighter. He's got great skills, and he's proven his skills again and again and again.

I'm not calling Mir's credibility into question. I'm not even talking about Mir.

I'm talking about Brock Lesnar.

I'm talking about a guy who's only ever used the word "Gracie" to refer to a hot chick at the bar.

I'm talking about a guy who doesn't know what RHK stands for.

Obviously, I'm being blunt and exaggerating, but I'm trying to keep my point from being too subtle.

My point is that there are more reasons than just what Lesnar has done in the cage that has led me to conclude that he is not using his talent properly.

I didn't need to see Danny Abbadi step in the cage to know he was going to lose to Ed Herman and then fall apart for the remainder of his UFC career.

There's more than one way to cut a pig, and there's more than one way to dissect a fighter.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

bbjd7 said:


> Look insulting Ironman is one thing. But you don't start talking shit to GMW. That's IMO is enough why are you trying to attack all of the respected members on the forum.
> 
> GMW is always willing to discuss MMA with anyone even Acoustic.
> 
> If you are serious about talking MMA stop shit talking.


atually i replied to GMW when I meant to respond to mjbish23 when he commented on my lack of response to IRONMAN. My bad. My apologies if GMW got me wrong there. mjbish23 should just mind his business and let IRONMAN speak for himself.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> atually i replied to GMW when I meant to respond to mjbish23 when he commented on my lack of response to IRONMAN. My bad. My apologies if GMW got me wrong there. mjbish23 should just mind his business and let IRONMAN speak for himself.


I believe I can say whatever I want on an open public forum.


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

GMW said:


> Off the top of my head, it just showed me, at minimum, he had a very amateur defensive ground game, no technical striking ability, and he doesn't have control with his GnP.


he had a very amateur defensive ground game = Not really, considering he was actually caught standing, but eys his defence was amateur, he did manage to escape from 2 arm bar attempts though 

no technical striking ability = In terms of stand up or GnP, cause i think a lot of ppl are doubting his GnP when it shouldn't be

and he doesn't have control with his GnP. = Disagreed. He was controlling Mir very well, once again he was caught with the sub standing, not when he was GnPing him


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

IronMan said:


> And if that happens, you're welcome to. I imagine that will be about the same time that Bobby Lashley claims his title as the first WEC heavyweight champion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You cannot dissect a fighter in 1 minute either, nor can you tell me how he trained or what he does or does not know. Sure, we can take some things out of the fight like his lack of GnP control, striking issues and sub defense but why he was weak in these areas none of us can say for sure.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Suizida said:


> he had a very amateur defensive ground game = Not really, considering he was actually caught standing, but eys his defence was amateur, he did manage to escape from 2 arm bar attempts though
> 
> no technical striking ability = In terms of stand up or GnP, cause i think a lot of ppl are doubting his GnP when it shouldn't be
> 
> and he doesn't have control with his GnP. = Disagreed. He was controlling Mir very well, once again he was caught with the sub standing, not when he was GnPing him


While I agree that his ground game was very amateur I have to disagree with you on him having good GnP and controlling his GnP. The only reason his strikes do so much damage on the ground is because he is so strong. He isn't very good at crontrolling where he hits as evidenced by the strikes to the back of the head.

He was caught with the sub while he was standing but he was still working his GnP from that position. I haven't watched the fight in awhile but I beleive he may have been trying to pass gaurd when he got caught. The sub was very obvious and if he had any control he wouldn't have gotten caught. Also if he took the bjj serious and worked sub defense he wouldn't have gotten caught because it was obvious what mir was going for.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> I believe I can say whatever I want on an open public forum.


you certainly can, even if it has 0 to do with you. congrats!


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

Suizida said:


> he had a very amateur defensive ground game = Not really, considering he was actually caught standing, but eys his defence was amateur, he did manage to escape from 2 arm bar attempts though


The fact the exact submission was predicted by dozens of people showed he hasn't outgrown his wrestling pedigree and become an MMA fighter. He made a very common wrestling mistake, leaving the leg open for the knee bar. 
It isn't an amateur mistake when you are just messing around, but at the top level of professional MMA, it's weak. 



Suizida said:


> no technical striking ability = In terms of stand up or GnP, cause i think a lot of ppl are doubting his GnP when it shouldn't be


Either, but I was referring to his standing. He didn't use his hips effectively, but with this, there is very little to go back so I'll remove the point. 



Suizida said:


> and he doesn't have control with his GnP. = Disagreed. He was controlling Mir very well, once again he was caught with the sub standing, not when he was GnPing him


He was controlling Mir so well because of his wrestling and strength. His GnP was just him punching wildly into the ground, shown by him punching him repeatedly in the back of the head.



nissassagame said:


> you certainly can, even if it has 0 to do with you. congrats!


Shit half of what anyone responds to here is directed at someone else. As long as you have a point to make, there is nothing wrong with posting, no matter who it is directed at.



nissassagame said:


> You cannot dissect a fighter in 1 minute either, nor can you tell me how he trained or what he does or does not know. Sure, we can take some things out of the fight like his lack of GnP control, striking issues and sub defense but why he was weak in these areas none of us can say for sure.


Someone can screw up a fight for 15 minutes and we won't know why exactly; nor does it matter, because this is what the fighter did. In lesnars case, all we have to go by is a one minute fight, and from that one minute, this is what we were capable of producing. Astonishing how much one minute of weak fighting can show, isn't it?


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

i think if you go back IRONMAN "I hope you are still here when he gets the shot. I'll be the first to say hello." wasnt the only thing i said in response. i entered text in between your comments. i just wanted to let you know that wasnt just all i wrote in response to your lengthy piece.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> you certainly can, even if it has 0 to do with you. congrats!


Gotta agree with GMW. If people just stuck to what someone said to them then threads would not be very entertaining as it would just be 2 people talking.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> Who knows right? Only Lesnar. I just assume its trash talk and attention seeking and it's fair for others to take it seriously if they want. I would never lose respect for a fighter because he had a big mouth though.





nissassagame said:


> do you think they show anything too revealing on all access. i dont think they would want to show too much on those shoots but i could be wrong. and to say he's a dick on camera...arent most of the fighters bigmouths on camera?





nissassagame said:


> i think if you go back IRONMAN "I hope you are still here when he gets the shot. I'll be the first to say hello." wasnt the only thing i said in response. i entered text in between your comments. i just wanted to let you know that wasnt just all i wrote in response to your lengthy piece.


You had two posts between Ironman's post and the "hello when he gets a shot" comment.... right...Really argues his point.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

GMW said:


> The fact the exact submission was predicted by dozens of people showed he hasn't outgrown his wrestling pedigree and become an MMA fighter. He made a very common wrestling mistake, leaving the leg open for the knee bar.
> It isn't an amateur mistake when you are just messing around, but at the top level of professional MMA, it's weak.
> 
> 
> ...


He showed many weaknesses in a very short period, thats for sure. I'm just not so sure if we can attribute it to training or knowledge when many other factors could be in play.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> He showed many weaknesses in a very short period, thats for sure. I'm just not so sure if we can attribute it to training or knowledge when many other factors could be in play.


I think it's pretty clear he didn't work BJJ as much as he should have. If your entire game is to take the fight to the ground, you need to train BJJ. Period.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

GMW said:


> You had two posts between Ironman's post and the "hello when he gets a shot" comment.... right...Really argues his point.


no when i wrote the response regarding the title shot, i had inserted other text as well in the same post. it looks like i responded with one line when the remainder is embedded in the same post.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> He showed many weaknesses in a very short period, thats for sure. I'm just not so sure if we can attribute it to training or knowledge when many other factors could be in play.


I think we can safely assume the causes.

1) He has one professional fight, we can assume experience played a factor. Like almost everything at the top level, experience and mental ability become the determining factors. He only had half of these. 

2) We saw his training on All Access, and as Ironman pointed out, everything prior to that was no secret. We know his training wasn't adequate, and there was no reason to doubt his word or to assume all access wasn't his best.



nissassagame said:


> no when i wrote the response regarding the title shot, i had inserted other text as well in the same post. it looks like i responded with one line when the remainder is embedded in the same post.


 I actually don't care about that, I don't know why I pointed it out now.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

GMW said:


> I think we can safely assume the causes.
> 
> 1) He has one professional fight, we can assume experience played a factor. Like almost everything at the top level, experience and mental ability become the determining factors. He only had half of these.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with 1) and believe he probably worked all out on All Access but don't think that was the extent of his game. To think he showed everything on a TV program would be denying the obvious; that they know they are there being filmed to look cool but too much info would reveal too much.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> I totally agree with 1) and believe he probably worked all out on All Access but don't think that was the extent of his game. To think he showed everything on a TV program would be denying the obvious; that they know they are there being filmed to look cool but too much info would reveal too much.


If he was training BJJ intensively why would he hide that? If anything, you would expect him to put on a show and act like he was training in it more than he actually was.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> You cannot dissect a fighter in 1 minute either, nor can you tell me how he trained or what he does or does not know. Sure, we can take some things out of the fight like his lack of GnP control, striking issues and sub defense but why he was weak in these areas none of us can say for sure.


Did you read my post?

I said that I'm not just analyzing the fight.

I'm analyzing the fight and every comment and release that was made about his training leading up to the fight. All of those acknowledged that he was not training jiu-jitsu. All of those acknowledged that he was not training muay thai.

I don't need to tell you how he trained for his fight with Mir. He told everybody how he trained for his fight with Mir. The only part I'm adding is my opinion that it was the wrong way to train for that fight.



nissassagame said:


> i think if you go back IRONMAN "I hope you are still here when he gets the shot. I'll be the first to say hello." wasnt the only thing i said in response. i entered text in between your comments. i just wanted to let you know that wasnt just all i wrote in response to your lengthy piece.


Thanks for that. In my defense, you really need to figure out the formatting, but you'll get there.



> Not so much on the bandwagon as my Thread's topic would indicate but i certainly don't agree with alot of what you are saying. I think losing to Mir in his first UFC match is respectable and taking away what we all saw him show us, I think, is unfair.


He didn't show us anything that we didn't already know.

He knew he was 280ish pounds and he was going to throw it around and we knew he couldn't defend the submission.

I'm not taking anything away from him. I'm saying that what he has isn't enough to win a UFC title.



> Money is certainly not the only reason for backing his being in the UFC. Claiming you are mad at Brock because he makes more or less money than anyone else seems excessive when maybe more focus should be made on the decisions of the UFC. Money is not a reason to claim he deserves nothing.


And I called out the UFC on the signing as soon as they made it.

Trust me, I've been there and done that.



> I disagree on your analysis of his technique. If any other wrestler in MMA took his opponent down in such a quick and effective manner as Lesnar did to both the Korean and Mir, you would have to admit it was technically sound. Not to mention he did use a proper defensive stace on his feet and used a nice quick jab to rock Mir back to the ground.


I never said Lesnar didn't have takedown skills.

I'm not even talking about his wrestling technique.

I pointed out earlier that wrestling is a way of getting your opponent to the ground. It is not a way to fight once you get there.

Lesnar doesn't know what to do when he gets there, and until he picks up jiu-jitsu or some other submission fighting system, he won't learn.



> Is he weak in many areas? Sure. But he's also a rookie.


You'll get no arguments from me there. But if he's a rookie, why is he fighting top guys?

If he's a rookie, why are you jumping on his bandwagon?



> Regardless of whether or not he is or isnt the best wrestler in the division, he may be the most powerful and athletically gifted which may give him an edge on the three fighters you mentioned. Not to say he would beat them but age and natural gifts and developed skill might certainly give him a shot.


You think he's more gifted than Mark Kerr?

I guess you're entitled to your opinion, but you should check out Mark Kerr's work in the early UFC tournaments. Lesnar might be a great athlete, but Kerr was on another planet athletically. Not so much now, but definitely in his prime.

I disagree that he would have any chance in hell against any of those guys. Why does his size and strength matter? He doesn't understand how to throw his weight around.

At least when Rulon Gardner debuted in Pride he was coming out of quest, where he learned how to throw a punch. And man could that guy throw a punch.



> There is NOTHING wrong with my statement that he is a phenomenal athlete and NCAA champion. He is a NCAA champ. That's a fact. Those amateur wrestling skills serve many successful fighters very well and GnP is a recognized way to win in the UFC. He is a phenomenal athlete and let me be clear when I say that immense strength, stamina, agility and speed (among other qualities) do determine how ATHLETIC you are. Phenomenal Athlete.


You didn't answer my question, so I'll rephrase it again:

When was the last time a UFC HW championship was won by groundnpound?



> Does how a guy trains make him any more or less deserving?If he can do little, rely on his wrestling, GnP and natural athleticism and simply add small parts of his game, is that wrong? Could he be better? Sure. Maybe it's his arrogance that insults you? But if he can learn to win this way, would you still attack his training?


I'm not bothered by his arrogance at all. I've defended plenty of fighters (most recently BJ Penn) for playing mind games and talking smack.

If he wins fights by layngay, my problem with him will be a different one.

Is it wrong if he only learns a handful of skills?

Not at all, let him do that.

But if that's how he's going to learn, we both know he'll never be a champ. He'll never beat a guy like Nog only learning a little jiu-jitsu. He'll never beat a guy like Werdum or Gonzaga only learning a little jiu-jitsu.

So will he be a champion? No. Not if he fights like that.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I totally agree with 1) and believe he probably worked all out on All Access but don't think that was the extent of his game. To think he showed everything on a TV program would be denying the obvious; that they know they are there being filmed to look cool but too much info would reveal too much.


I doubt he showed everything, he probably has abilities I'm not aware of, but it showed enough to show he doesn't have all the basics down... you notice small things when he's training like not pivoting his hips correctly, pushing off with the wrong foot, etc.
It'd be wrong for us to pretend we know everything about him, but for someone as skilled as Ironman (read the grappling technique thread and you'll see why we respect his opinion so much), it's plenty of time to develop an initial opinion of the fighter. 
From that you're able to determine an idea of how the fight will go, when it goes just how you thought, there's a likely chance your opinion of his fighting ability was mostly correct.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Ok, so my ability to quote properly is limited, lol....so i'll do it the noob way for now. I should point out that I believe very little of what fighters say in interviews and see in small hype programs. Let's face it. We know what they want us to know. You were initially vague when saying he had no technique and that is why I pointed out that he displayed his wrestling skills. I'm on the bandwagon because I look at the HW division, which is visibly weak and with Brock see a glimmer of something different, hope and excitement. Tell me if he honed his skills he couldn't destroy any HW out there. Say put 10 fights under his belt and teach him some BJJ and he would be virtually unstoppable. I'm just tired of the likes of Vera(whining, inconsistent), Nog(past his prime), Gonzaga(a few months of hype for one kick) and a who's-who of nobodies in a divison I would love to see some REAL action in. CroCop was a joke, Arlovski was a flash and Sylvia is well, I'm not even getting into that sloth. So I'm excited for something new. Sue me  
Is he better than anyone? Who knows.
When was the last time a UFC HW championship was won by groundnpound?
I can't remember. Point is I believe Lesnar will treat the HW division like nothing we have ever seen. He spun around Mir so fast it looked like a WW wrestler's speed in a giants body. I guess the HW's have just looked so pathetic for so long that anything would be refreashing at this point.
Will he be a champ? If he takes it seriously I think he could be the most dominant champ in UFC history.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Ok, so my ability to quote properly is limited, lol....so i'll do it the noob way for now. I should point out that I believe very little of what fighters say in interviews and see in small hype programs. Let's face it. We know what they want us to know. You were initially vague when saying he had no technique and that is why I pointed out that he displayed his wrestling skills. I'm on the bandwagon because I look at the HW division, which is visibly weak and with Brock see a glimmer of something different, hope and excitement.


I agree with you that the HW division is pretty weak right now and I can respect you liking Brock. That's your opinion


> Tell me if he honed his skills he couldn't destroy any HW out there. Say put 10 fights under his belt and teach him some BJJ and he would be virtually unstoppable.


I doubt he could destroy any athlete out there even with a few years training. Brock isn't young. He has injuries from the WWE and he has little grappling experience. It is only going to get harder for him to get better as he gets older.



> I'm just tired of the likes of Vera(whining, inconsistent), Nog(past his prime), Gonzaga(a few months of hype for one kick) and a who's-who of nobodies in a divison I would love to see some REAL action in. CroCop was a joke, Arlovski was a flash and Sylvia is well, I'm not even getting into that sloth. So I'm excited for something new. Sue me


This is where your argument starts to fall apart and I can't take what you say serious.

How is Vera inconsisent? Aside from his last 2 loses he was 8-0 and people were touting him as the next big thing. His lose during the Sylvia fight can be explained by the fact that he broke his hand on the first punch he threw. Because of that it was impossible for him to strike the whole fight yet he still did a good job and didn't take much damage. The Werdum fight was semi controversial so i'm not gonna go there.

Nog is not past his prime. The guy just won the HW title and has beaten many of the top guys. He's even lasted 3 rounds with Fedor something not many people can claim they did.

Gonzaga is a solid fighter too. He has a very established ground game and while his striking is wild people still have trouble with it. He is still young and doesn't have a lot of fights. He is still a contender in the UFC.

Cro Cop was not a joke either. I suggest you watch some of his Pride fights before saying he is a joke. He didn't do as well in the UFC but I guarantee when he comes back we see the old Cro Cop.

Arlovski was not a flash. He was HW champ and was destroying people left and right. He had the boring fight with Sylvia but after that beat Werdum. He is going to do well in Affliction.

Sylvia is another former HW champ. He was actually a 2 time champ. He has good striking and poses problems for anyone. He is far from a sloth.




> Also how can you say that
> 
> Is he better than anyone? Who knows.
> When was the last time a UFC HW championship was won by groundnpound?
> ...


Again the UFC HW division recently have not been very pathetic. It is only the past month or so that they have lost a few good fighters, which have hurt the division.

I also don't think he will be the most dominant champ ever. He is just too old to start learning new things. I also don't think he will take his training very serious. If he goes and trains bjj with someone like BJ Penn or Eddie Bravo and is working his standup with someone like Peter Aerts or Ernesto Hoost or even trains at a real camp like Team Jackson then I will consider the possibility that he could be HW champ but right now I think there are too many good fighters who would destroy him, not to mention the fact that he won't take his training seriously.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I should point out that I believe very little of what fighters say in interviews and see in small hype programs.


Really?

When a fighter tells me how they're training for a fight, I generally don't just to "that guy must be full of sh*t."

Why would a fighter lie about what he's training in during a hype interview?



> Let's face it. We know what they want us to know. You were initially vague when saying he had no technique and that is why I pointed out that he displayed his wrestling skills.


You want a technical analysis of every bit of the fight with Lesnar and All Access, because I'll give you one.

I didn't realize that we needed to analyze the fact that Lesnar doesn't know how to roll out of a kneebar, doesn't know to pull his knees under him or (if he's standing up) behind him when he tries to groundnpound.

I didn't realize that we needed to analyze the fact that he flairs his elbows out when he punches (which will get him killed by any kickboxer worth his salt) or that he doesn't have the flexibility to throw even substantial leg kicks.

There's more that I can say about his technique, but what more needs to be said?

It's not very good.



> I'm on the bandwagon because I look at the HW division, which is visibly weak and with Brock see a glimmer of something different, hope and excitement.


Really, because I look at it and I start to feel like I'm going to vomit.

Then I go and look at the Affliction heavyweight division and the promise of a Dream tournament this winter and I feel much better.

The UFC heavyweight division is bad. I've been cricitizing it for about a year now. In fact, the signing of Lesnar was one of the omens that the UFC had stopped caring about the quality of matchups and started doing what Dana initially called Pride out for doing: setting up freak matchups.

Still, I don't think Lesnar is a glimmer of hope.

I think that Fabricio Werdum is a glimmer of hope. So is Nog. So are Cheick Kongo and Brandon Vera, fighters who care about improving their skillsets.



> Tell me if he honed his skills he couldn't destroy any HW out there. Say put 10 fights under his belt and teach him some BJJ and he would be virtually unstoppable.


Is he honing his skills? Is he flying to Rio or Curitaba and training with the Gracies or with Black House, or going to Florida to work with ATT?

No. He's hanging out in Minnesota, where his one dimensional game is only getting more conventional.

If you put ten fights under his belt and don't change his skill set, he's the same fighter. If those ten fights are against top ten guys, he's a dead fighter.



> I'm just tired of the likes of Vera(whining, inconsistent), Nog(past his prime), Gonzaga(a few months of hype for one kick) and a who's-who of nobodies in a divison I would love to see some REAL action in.


I don't like Vera. So I'm with you there.

I agree that Nog is not the fighter he was as Pride champion.

You seem to be under the delusion that Gonzaga is 1-3 with that win over CroCop, not 9-3 with three other wins in the UFC.

The guy beat the holy hell out of decent competition. More than can be said for Lesnar.



> CroCop was a joke, Arlovski was a flash and Sylvia is well, I'm not even getting into that sloth. So I'm excited for something new. Sue me


Were you even watching the sport when these guys were in their prime?

Arlovski has a handful of the best knockouts in the sport. He knocked out Paul Buentello so fast he made Mike Tyson look patient. He held the heavyweight title four times.

CroCop was a favorite going into his fight with Fedor. He won the Open Weight Grand Prix in Pride. He has knocked out more top ten heavyweights than any other active fighter, and that's just in his fights against Barnett.

Sylvia was a monster in his day and while I'm the first to call him a pantspooping ogre now, he was a beast when he was fighting in that division years ago.

These are things that people say now that totally ignore what these guys have done. And it's fine if you want to call them washed up, but give them credit for the crap they've done.



> Is he better than anyone? Who knows.


I know. He's not.



> When was the last time a UFC HW championship was won by groundnpound?
> I can't remember.


That's the problem. No one can remember. There hasn't been a heavyweight champion who relied on his groundnpound game since Coleman. Even Couture had to figure out how to strike and use submissions.

The answer is *UFC 34.*

I wasn't even a UFC fan back then. I started watching two cards later when Barnett beat Couture.



> Point is I believe Lesnar will treat the HW division like nothing we have ever seen. He spun around Mir so fast it looked like a WW wrestler's speed in a giants body. I guess the HW's have just looked so pathetic for so long that anything would be refreashing at this point.
> Will he be a champ? If he takes it seriously I think he could be the most dominant champ in UFC history.


You're entitled to believe what you want. And I agree that if Brock Lesnar decides he's going to spend a year learning the skills and working with guys who know the techniques and the styles like Jeff Monson or Roger Gracie or anybody besides the guys in Minnesota who don't have any experience in submission grappling, he can legitimize himself.

I don't think he'll be a title holder, because I don't think he can jump on the learning curve and catch up with Werdum and Nog on the ground, and he definitely can't catch up with Kongo or Vera standing up.

Still, he's not in a position to do that now, and you established that by qualifying your statement with the phrase "If he takes it seriously," reminding us that, up to this point, he has been training and performing at a level that is less than what we expected. But we already knew that.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Vera had 8 wins with 1 notable win over Mir than 2 losses. First 4 were outside the octagon. He hasnt done anything worthy.
Nog hasnt beaten anyone since Mirko and drew with Fedor(who hasnt even seen the octagon). Beating Sylvia is no feat given he is just a big fish in a small pond.
Gonzaga...Mr. don't believe the hype, Mr. one kick gets me Randy Couture. 9-3 with victories over a who's who of nobody. Lucky Kick. Thats all he will ever be, is the guy that KO'd Copper. Wow!
Sylvia is the most overrated HW ever. His first 16 fights were all wins against every bar room brawler and has been there is. After that, he lost to Mir, Arlovski(see that bum down), Couture and Nog and crept past a broken handed Vera while having decisions in ugly matches with another collection of nobodies.
Mirko...oh my...i'm not even going there. That UFC career was Uuuuuuuuugly. He's great on a highlight reel and has beaten many big names, its just sad he fell apart in the UFC. I had hoped for him too, until he sucked.
Arlovski is only 13-5 with losses to some decent names and losses to the likes of Sylvia and a bunch of goons. One win over Timmy doesnt make you anybody.
Way I see it Lesnar is as crap as the rest so he's got as good a chance as any.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

and holding a belt in a weak division doesnt make you a great fighter. it means you are a big fish in a small pond. you are only as big as your weakest link and the divions weakest are a joke. quoting arlovski being a 4 time champ is like cathing 4 1oz fish in an ocean and saying wow what a big catch.


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## Zender (Dec 15, 2006)

How did I know this thread would turn out like this. 

Ironman I totally agree with you. Nissassagame I think you're reading all these wins on paper & haven't even watched the fights going by your analysis. It's quite blatant your arguments hold no water but yet you still think you've got the upper hand. :confused03: I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt earlier considering you as a new fan to MMA but as the thread goes on, you look more like a troll post by post. :sarcastic09:


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

Walker said:


> I don't think it was a bad call by the ref either- they might have given a more experienced fighter a little more leeway but having such an inexperienced fighter I think he was trying to protect Mir in that position more.
> 
> I am one of the guys that hates WWE and intially I was rooting against Lesnar for that reason. But seeing some of his training and that he is trying to make himself a better fighter is enough for me to give him more respect though. I won't jump on the bandwagon yet but I'm willing to give him a shot though. With his size, wrestling background and athletic ability and with the weakened state of the HW division it will be interesting to see if he continues to improve.


That's my oppinion EXACTLY. Also, he might have discovered a talent for MMA when he started to train for MMA. I also think Lesnar will have some VERY fun figts in the future, looking at the way he went after Mir. If he wins his next fight, hopefully impressively but whatever goes, then I'm on his bandwagon.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Vera had 8 wins with 1 notable win over Mir than 2 losses. First 4 were outside the octagon. He hasnt done anything worthy.
> Nog hasnt beaten anyone since Mirko and drew with Fedor(who hasnt even seen the octagon). Beating Sylvia is no feat given he is just a big fish in a small pond.
> Gonzaga...Mr. don't believe the hype, Mr. one kick gets me Randy Couture. 9-3 with victories over a who's who of nobody. Lucky Kick. Thats all he will ever be, is the guy that KO'd Copper. Wow!
> Sylvia is the most overrated HW ever. His first 16 fights were all wins against every bar room brawler and has been there is. After that, he lost to Mir, Arlovski(see that bum down), Couture and Nog and crept past a broken handed Vera while having decisions in ugly matches with another collection of nobodies.
> ...





nissassagame said:


> and holding a belt in a weak division doesnt make you a great fighter. it means you are a big fish in a small pond. you are only as big as your weakest link and the divions weakest are a joke. quoting arlovski being a 4 time champ is like cathing 4 1oz fish in an ocean and saying wow what a big catch.


You need to go back and watch all of the fights you are talking about. It is very obvious you are just basing your decisions on something you saw on sherdogs fight finder. What someones record on a piece of paper says and what the actual fights showed are 2 totally different things. At first you started off kind of debating but these last couple of posts are just turning into trolling because you are blatantly trashing fighters everyone knows were or still are good. If you keep it up like that it's only a matter of time before you are :bye02:


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> Vera had 8 wins with 1 notable win over Mir than 2 losses. First 4 were outside the octagon. He hasnt done anything worthy.


If you want to just look at the records of these guys, that's fine.

Vera beat Mir, a former UFC heavyweight champion, soundly. He's gone the distance with a champion and has a record in the cage of 4-2.

Lesnar is 0-1 and lasted all of a minute before being caught. He's hardly the better fighter on paper. In fact, he's the worst fighter in the division on paper. So statistics may be something you want to stay away from.



> Nog hasnt beaten anyone since Mirko and drew with Fedor(who hasnt even seen the octagon). Beating Sylvia is no feat given he is just a big fish in a small pond.


It's like you don't even know anything about this sport. Really, when you talk like this you do all my arguing for me.

Nog beat Barnett, Werdum, Herring (twice) and Sergei, all after the fight with CroCop.

If you don't know who those guys are, I included links to their profiles on Sherdog, as you seem to be using that as your only real source for information anyway.



> Gonzaga...Mr. don't believe the hype, Mr. one kick gets me Randy Couture. 9-3 with victories over a who's who of nobody. Lucky Kick. Thats all he will ever be, is the guy that KO'd Copper. Wow!


Did you watch the fight with CroCop? It was a lucky kick after he spent the majority of the fight pounding CroCop's face?

Come on, everybody know how to beat CroCop. Randleman showed the way in Pride and its been an easy road for grapplers ever since. Gonzaga just watched the fight tape. You should too.

Soon you'll be saying Jon Fitch doesn't deserve a shot at GSP because he didn't really beat anybody tough.



> Sylvia is the most overrated HW ever. His first 16 fights were all wins against every bar room brawler and has been there is. After that, he lost to Mir, Arlovski(see that bum down), Couture and Nog and crept past a broken handed Vera while having decisions in ugly matches with another collection of nobodies.


Do you even know who the guys on his record are? Or do you just look at his record and go "that guy looks like a *******, and so does that guy...?"

Putting aside Tim's Superbrawl wins over Whitehead and Lambert, he's beaten some of the best guys who fought in the heavyweight division.

He beat former UFC heavyweight champ Ricco Rodriguez. He beat Cabbage who, whether you like it or not, is a well respected guy in the sport. He beat Gan McGee, who was a monster and a huge dude. He ended Tra Telligman's career with that high kick. Then he knocked out a man that no one thought was beatable at the time.

You can disrespect Tim for not working as hard as he should, but at least he's done something in the sport, and you're on the Lesnar bandwagon, so you might want to consider what it means to have done something in the sport.



> Mirko...oh my...i'm not even going there. That UFC career was Uuuuuuuuugly. He's great on a highlight reel and has beaten many big names, its just sad he fell apart in the UFC. I had hoped for him too, until he sucked.


I'm not even going to respond to this, because talking about the Pride Grand Prix and his career in K-1 is probably going well beyond what you know about the guy.

His highlight reel is fantastic, but the fact that he basically destroyed everyone and some called him the favorite going into his fight with Fedor says enough.



> Arlovski is only 13-5 with losses to some decent names and losses to the likes of Sylvia and a bunch of goons. One win over Timmy doesnt make you anybody.


Let's look past the fact that when Arlovski showed up in the UFC, he was immediately thrown in with the big boys after beating Aaron Brink, who you've probably never heard of, but who was a heavy favorite at the time and had fought some of the greatest fighters in the underground of the sport, including McGee and the Bad Seed Bobby Hoffman.

Arlovski beat Zentsov, one of the greatest Russian fighters ever, in M-1.

Arlovski holds the record for the fastest finish ever in a title fight, beating Buentello with the "ghost punch" at UFC 55. Buentello was considered the top striker in the division at the time. It's clear he wasn't.

Arlovski also has one of the fastest (if not the fastest, I'll have to check) submission in a title fight, with that win over Sylvia.

Arlovski's only losses in the UFC have been to former champions (Rizzo, Rodriguez and Sylvia) and he's beaten two of the greatest legends from European and Russian MMA (Freeman and Matyushenko, respectively).

You can look at the guy's career and go "well those guys are all nobodies." The fact is, they weren't, and most of them still aren't.



> Way I see it Lesnar is as crap as the rest so he's got as good a chance as any.


Really, because here are the differences, just on paper (I won't even go into the skill sets) between those guys and Lesnar:

All of them have winning MMA records. Lesnar doesn't.

All of them holds wins over a top ten fighter. Lesnar doesn't.

All of them have finished an opponent in the UFC. Lesnar hasn't.

Those are some pretty substantial differences.



nissassagame said:


> and holding a belt in a weak division doesnt make you a great fighter. it means you are a big fish in a small pond.


So the Pride heavyweight division when Nog was the champ was a small pond?

The UFC division when Arlovski and Sylvia were coming up (a division dominated by Couture, Rodriguez, Rizzo, Randleman, the list goes on) was a small pond?

That's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. I'm not going to say that the UFC doesn't have a weak division now. The division is pathetic. You'll get no argument there.

But if you want to talk about the history, then actually look at it as it was, and those divisions were tough.



> you are only as big as your weakest link and the divions weakest are a joke.


I agree. Lesnar is a joke.



> quoting arlovski being a 4 time champ is like cathing 4 1oz fish in an ocean and saying wow what a big catch.


Yeah, because Buentello, Sylvia, Cruz, Matyushenko, Freeman and Werdum, those guys all suck. They'd never beat Lesnar.

Oh wait, yeah they would.

Come on. You're saying that Arlovski doesn't deserve any credit for his wins over guys who were top tier during the time, and he doesn't deserve credit for being the single most feared fighter in the western hemisphere for years.

At least he won fights against solid opponents.

You're trying to make an argument for Brock Lesnar and you're going to do that by saying he's better than Arlovski? I think that your point is so fallacious it doesn't need any more.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> and holding a belt in a weak division doesnt make you a great fighter. it means you are a big fish in a small pond. you are only as big as your weakest link and the divions weakest are a joke. quoting arlovski being a 4 time champ is like cathing 4 1oz fish in an ocean and saying wow what a big catch.


I wouldn't even agree with this.

Let's start with the statement, "you are only as big as your weakest link". Every division has it's share of bad fighters. Just look at the LHW division, regarded as the strongest UFC division currently, has Jason Lambert, a fighter who is now considered terrible. Does this mean the entire division is crap? Of course not. 

As strong as your weakest link only applies to team sports; within a specific team, it'd be the equivalent to saying the MLB sucks because tampa bay is in it. 

The UFC heavyweight division is crap due to a lack of depth, but that does not mean the top of the ladder is not skilled fighters. The top four - five fighters in the HW division are all amazing, and deserve respect; all this means is if a great fighter came to the UFC HW division, they could run through the bottom -> upper middle of the it, but would get halted at the top.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

But thats what I am saying. They would probably all beat Lesnar. I can't argue that. Given you agree he is the weakest in the divison and you state he is garbage, it only goes to validate my arguement that it is a very small pond. But every guy you mentioned, save a few, have records inflated by wins over majority weak opponents. You can quote names of fighters, title holders and how fighters look versus other fighters in the cage but thats as "paper" as this sherdog bit you bring up. I guess because I have watched the fights and do know the records I must have gotten my info elsewhere because there's NO WAY i could disagree with YOU and actually know something. Give me a break. At no point did I ever say Lesnar was better than any of he above mentioned fighters so spare me when you try and claim I did. I said he was weak but could POTENTIALLY become great and change the division. I also stated the HW division has been weak for a long time. You can put words in my mouth, thats fine, if thats how you make an arguement, I'll just have to understand that thats how you roll. Cool. You can say Arlovski beat Sylvia, Gonzo bat Mirko, and so on and so on, but when a nobody defeats a nobody is he anybody? I think not. You can claim I never watched any fights and thats fine, but just because someone hits a ghost punch doesnt mean anything, only that it was a nice punch. His opponent is what counts, not the strike. Saying any guy is feared is laughable. You have all these insects killing each other and some are more dominant than others, sure, but no lizard has come along yet to wipe them all out. None of these guys are dominant enough to be considered great. Maybe you believe the hype or view a win as a great thing in any case, but again, big fish, small pond. Also, I said and acknowledged that Mirko beat the big name guys. I was stating he was a dissapointment to UFC HW division regardless of what he'd done in pride. And he DID dissapoint. I never argued that yet you feel the need to say I did? Mirko only increased my frustration for the HW class. All I was saying is there has been nobody that stands out in a long time.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> But thats what I am saying. They would probably all beat Lesnar. I can't argue that. Given you agree he is the weakest in the divison and you state he is garbage, it only goes to validate my arguement that it is a very small pond. But every guy you mentioned, save a few, have records inflated by wins over majority weak opponents.


I'll let Ironman touch on the rest, but you're aware they have inflated records for the same reason Lesnar takes shit. 

You fight outside the UFC to build up your record enough to get noticed and to get into the UFC. Almost no one puts weight into any fight outside the UFC, unless it was in Pride, or against another top fighter. People here look at what they've actually done, not just recite records, something you seem to be familiar with. 

No matter how good you are, you have to start outside the UFC, if you aren't famous or if you don't know someone who is in the UFC, that's why they have inflated records.

Even once you are in the UFC, you are usually on the bottom, so you have to fight the worst for one or two fights, something a lot of these fighters actually are lucky enough to bypass.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> You need to go back and watch all of the fights you are talking about. It is very obvious you are just basing your decisions on something you saw on sherdogs fight finder. What someones record on a piece of paper says and what the actual fights showed are 2 totally different things. At first you started off kind of debating but these last couple of posts are just turning into trolling because you are blatantly trashing fighters everyone knows were or still are good. If you keep it up like that it's only a matter of time before you are :bye02:



if all you can do is :bye02: and :bye02: and :bye02: maybe you should consider getting some crayons and a colouring book? seriously, because, I have an opinion of the fighters that you don't agree with it's :bye02:, :bye02:, :bye02:. Wait a minute...that banned smile is fun. Woo-hoo. I feel 7 again. Try something constructive will you.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> if all you can do is :bye02: and :bye02: and :bye02: maybe you should consider getting some crayons and a colouring book? seriously, because, I have an opinion of the fighters that you don't agree with it's :bye02:, :bye02:, :bye02:. Wait a minute...that banned smile is fun. Woo-hoo. I feel 7 again. Try something constructive will you.


I had a very long post a page or two back addressing everything you said but you seemed to ignore it. Maybe you should go back and address the points I made if you want to debate some more. 

Also you can't go around and say that fighters like Sylvia, Arlovski, Nog, and whoever else you mentioned are garbage fighters and are nobodies. Everyone knows they are decent fighters. My sister who doesn't even watch mma knows who they are and that they are good. Saying they suck and are nobodies just shows that you are ignorant of mma. It also makes you come off like a troll because those are the types of things a troll does to instigate fights with people.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Taking the records out of the equation will still lead me to the same end. The HW class has been weak for some time. Sure, some guys are skilled, it would be stupid to argue that, but again, if 1 bum is more skilled than another, he he great? No. Just the best of a bad crowd.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> Taking the records out of the equation will still lead me to the same end. The HW class has been weak for some time. Sure, some guys are skilled, it would be stupid to argue that, but again, if 1 bum is more skilled than another, he he great? No. Just the best of a bad crowd.


Look past the current HW division then.

Did all the fighters get worse recently, because not even a year ago, Nog was considered the 2nd or 3rd best HW in the world, in Pride, regarded as the best HW division in any organization. 

Did he become a less skilled, determined fighter simply for joining a new organization with a weaker talent pool as a whole?

The good fighters in the division are not good for being better then a bum, they are just great fighters. We can determine there technical, and physical ability and determined they are amazing.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

If I missed your post I certainly never meant to ignore you. I miss a post and have a negative opinion on fighters your sister is attracted to and you troll away? Come on man. Why not just point out you disagree and remind me you posted and I may have missed it instead of trolling yourself. I would gladly discuss anything with anyone. Get a grip dude, I'm not instigating anything. Act accordingly.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Taking the records out of the equation will still lead me to the same end. The HW class has been weak for some time. Sure, some guys are skilled, it would be stupid to argue that, but again, if 1 bum is more skilled than another, he he great? No. Just the best of a bad crowd.


The heavyweight division is weak everywhere except for in Affliction. That's the nature of the division. There just isn't the type of depth like there is in LW. Part of that is because most people aren't that big. 

Even if the division is still weak the top tier guys are far from bums. I really don't think you know who they are if you consider Nog, Sylvia, Arlovski, Gonzaga, Cro Cop, Werdum, and Vera bums.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

GMW said:


> Look past the current HW division then.
> 
> Did all the fighters get worse recently, because not even a year ago, Nog was considered the 2nd or 3rd best HW in the world, in Pride, regarded as the best HW division in any organization.
> 
> ...


I don't want to hit Nog because he has beaten some names and showed alot of skill. My frustration with Nog is less his fault and more the UFC's as he fights Herring and goes straight to the title. It only went to validate my point that the division is a joke. Clearly, the UFC felt the same or they would not have felt they had to throw NOG in the mix so fast. I hope Nog dominates and shows us he deserves that belt. I really do. I won't hold my breath though.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I don't want to hit Nog because he has beaten some names and showed alot of skill. My frustration with Nog is less his fault and more the UFC's as he fights Herring and goes straight to the title. It only went to validate my point that the division is a joke. Clearly, the UFC felt the same or they would not have felt they had to throw NOG in the mix so fast. I hope Nog dominates and shows us he deserves that belt. I really do. I won't hold my breath though.


This goes back to a point I made earlier, being a great fighter in this division, sky rockets you to the top.

Of course Nog deserves his title, he beat one of the best HW"s in the world to get it. Would it have been more valid had he beat two more fighters before hand who were worse then Sylvia? I can understand thinking he doesn't deserve the title shot, it's just like with Matt Serra, but he clearly deserves the title. 

Also, at this point, it's clear everyone agrees the division is crap, no need to bring that up. Our point, which you seemed to disagree with prior to this post, is that every fight in the HW division is bums because the division is weak, and some just suck; ie arlovski.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> The heavyweight division is weak everywhere except for in Affliction. That's the nature of the division. There just isn't the type of depth like there is in LW. Part of that is because most people aren't that big.
> 
> Even if the division is still weak the top tier guys are far from bums. I really don't think you know who they are if you consider Nog, Sylvia, Arlovski, Gonzaga, Cro Cop, Werdum, and Vera bums.


I agree with your breakdown of why there is less depth. That's why the division is weak to a degree. Less actual Heavyweights = Less actual skill = weakest division in mma.

Now, if you read my posts, I did mention Mirko and recently Nog, have been very impressive. My point with these two is that Mirko dissapointed in his UFC HW opportunity and NOG had 1 octagon fight, automatically gets a belt look and beats a guy with the speed of a snail. The remainder of the fighters are not even worth getting into anymore as I have had my say on them.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

GMW said:


> This goes back to a point I made earlier, being a great fighter in this division, sky rockets you to the top.
> 
> Of course Nog deserves his title, he beat one of the best HW"s in the world to get it. Would it have been more valid had he beat two more fighters before hand who were worse then Sylvia? I can understand thinking he doesn't deserve the title shot, it's just like with Matt Serra, but he clearly deserves the title.
> 
> Also, at this point, it's clear everyone agrees the division is crap, no need to bring that up. Our point, which you seemed to disagree with prior to this post, is that every fight in the HW division is bums because the division is weak, and some just suck; ie arlovski.


There certainly is a divide, I agree. Arlovski, Mirko, Nog, Sylvia....are in a different class, but by no means does that make them great, just better.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> There certainly is a divide, I agree. Arlovski, Mirko, Nog, Sylvia....are in a different class, but by no means does that make them great, just better.


I actually don't see how you could even argue Nog isn't great. A win of CC in his prime, going the distance with Fedor twice, Barnett, Werdum, etc. 
I can see CC, arlovski and Sylvia in a loose sense, that I'd disagree with, but how Nog?


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Again, I like Nog and he is very good. He was good in Pride and so far in the UFC he has done well. If he destroys the UFC HW division and avoids losses to Werdum, Vera, Mir, etc than he does what he should have done and thats beat who he should beat. My arguement is not so much Nog's skills because he clearly has those, but the UFC acknowledged the division was weak when they gave him a warm up fight and sent him straight to the belt. I was simply using Nog to show how the UFC HW division is weak.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> Again, I like Nog and he is very good. He was good in Pride and so far in the UFC he has done well. If he destroys the UFC HW division and avoids losses to Werdum, Vera, Mir, etc than he does what he should have done and thats beat who he should beat. My arguement is not so much Nog's skills because he clearly has those, but the UFC acknowledged the division was weak when they gave him a warm up fight and sent him straight to the belt. I was simply using Nog to show how the UFC HW division is weak.


Right, but why are you showing the UFC HW division is weak, a point we all agreed with?


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> I agree with your breakdown of why there is less depth. That's why the division is weak to a degree. Less actual Heavyweights = Less actual skill = weakest division in mma.
> 
> Now, if you read my posts, I did mention Mirko and recently Nog, have been very impressive. My point with these two is that Mirko dissapointed in his UFC HW opportunity and NOG had 1 octagon fight, automatically gets a belt look and beats a guy with the speed of a snail. The remainder of the fighters are not even worth getting into anymore as I have had my say on them.


Mirko did the same thing before though. He lost to Mark Hunt and then after that went on a tear destroying everyone on his way to winning the Pride Open Weight Grand Prix. Whenever Mirko loses he always talks about quitting and then after taking some time off comes back rejuvanted and wrecks people. Ya his performance in the Octagon was dissapointed but when he comes back I guarantee we will see the old Cro Cop. Part of his problem with the UFC can be attributed to the fact that he didn't take training in an Octagon seriously and wasn't prepared for the changes from a ring. This has been discussed at length before so i'm not going into it too much but it is one of the reasons he didn't do so well in the UFC. 

Nog got his shot because he is in a division that doesn't have a lot of guys in it so one win, especially over someone like Herring, will get you an automatic title shot. He also got his when all of the problems with Couture was starting. The UFC needed to do something to fill the title after Couture left and giving Nog a shot was the best thing for the company. The guy is phenomenal and has proven himself countless times in Pride. He definetly deserved his title shot. Dan Henderson came into the UFC and got an instant title shot against Jackson without even fighting in the UFC and then after losing that got another one against Anderson. You could argue that wasn't deserving but Nog definetly deserved his shot. It's not his fault there aren't a lot of fighters at HW like there are at the lower weight classes.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

GMW said:


> Right, but why are you showing the UFC HW division is weak, a point we all agreed with?


I belive it is much weaker than most here, thats clear. Many of the fighters that have been mentioned I just don't believe are that good. And the only reason I talked so much about the division is becuase I had mentioned way back that I felt the division was lackluster and Lesnar, should he take it seriously, could change the HW class forever.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

I know the why's and agree with you completely. It just goes to show how much movement, drama and lack of stability there is the HW class.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> Mirko did the same thing before though. He lost to Mark Hunt and then after that went on a tear destroying everyone on his way to winning the Pride Open Weight Grand Prix. Whenever Mirko loses he always talks about quitting and then after taking some time off comes back rejuvanted and wrecks people. Ya his performance in the Octagon was dissapointed but when he comes back I guarantee we will see the old Cro Cop. Part of his problem with the UFC can be attributed to the fact that he didn't take training in an Octagon seriously and wasn't prepared for the changes from a ring. This has been discussed at length before so i'm not going into it too much but it is one of the reasons he didn't do so well in the UFC.
> 
> Nog got his shot because he is in a division that doesn't have a lot of guys in it so one win, especially over someone like Herring, will get you an automatic title shot. He also got his when all of the problems with Couture was starting. The UFC needed to do something to fill the title after Couture left and giving Nog a shot was the best thing for the company. The guy is phenomenal and has proven himself countless times in Pride. He definetly deserved his title shot. Dan Henderson came into the UFC and got an instant title shot against Jackson without even fighting in the UFC and then after losing that got another one against Anderson. You could argue that wasn't deserving but Nog definetly deserved his shot. It's not his fault there aren't a lot of fighters at HW like there are at the lower weight classes.


I know the why's and agree with you completely. It just goes to show how much movement, drama and lack of stability there is the HW class.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I belive it is much weaker than most here, thats clear. Many of the fighters that have been mentioned I just don't believe are that good. And the only reason I talked so much about the division is becuase I had mentioned way back that I felt the division was lackluster and Lesnar, should he take it seriously, could change the HW class forever.


Let's get back on Lesnar more then.
I don't see how he could possibly change a class let alone a division.
How do you suppose he would change the class? Do you think he'll become as dominant as Fedor? Open up a new style? 

From the outside, it just seems to be another wrestler in MMA, trying to adapt. Lesnar would appear to be the Koscheck of the HW division, who is going to less heights to advance his career. 

There is a big difference between saying Lesnar could be good and will change the class, so can you highlight your opinion of how he would do that? You may of said it already but I forgot, so if you did, repost it please.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> I know the why's and agree with you completely. It just goes to show how much movement, drama and lack of stability there is the HW class.


Well since we all agree that the HW division lacks depth right now, but not talent, let's get back to your initial point of Brock Lesnar like GMW said because I disagree with you that he will end up destroying everyone in the UFC and being the most dominant champ ever.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

GMW said:


> Let's get back on Lesnar more then.
> I don't see how he could possibly change a class let alone a division.
> How do you suppose he would change the class? Do you think he'll become as dominant as Fedor? Open up a new style?
> 
> ...


Given the last title won by GnP in the HW division was ages ago(see Ironman's post way back on the details), it seems likely that should Brock become a top dog, his choice of poison would be GnP. In just a minute he showed some glaring weaknesses but his takedown and movement speed on the ground were impressive. I certainly don't think ANY HW fighter with a predominant Wrestling background IN HISTORY is on any level of comparable athleticism, strength, agility or endurance. Sure, they may have been technically better and thats why he needs to train hard. Should he ever aquire skills comparable to say Randy than his athletics would take him levels beyond what we have ever seen before.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> Given the last title won by GnP in the HW division was ages ago(see Ironman's post way back on the details), it seems likely that should Brock become a top dog, his choice of poison would be GnP. In just a minute he showed some glaring weaknesses but his takedown and movement speed on the ground were impressive. I certainly don't think ANY HW fighter with a predominant Wrestling background IN HISTORY is on any level of comparable athleticism, strength, agility or endurance. Sure, they may have been technically better and thats why he needs to train hard. Should he ever aquire skills comparable to say Randy than his athletics would take him levels beyond what we have ever seen before.


I'd agree if he acquired Couture's skill set he could become a dominant fighter, I'm not sure how to argue that.

It's necessary to point out though, you are discussing Lesnar as if he "will" gain this skill set, not if he does. There is nothing to show that at this point in his career, he will be capable of getting those kinds of skill, but from what he has publicly disclosed, interviews/ufc all access, we can safely say that under his current training methods, he won't be capable of becoming that good. 

Now, let's imagine for a moment that he does become as good as Couture, hell, Fedor. How would he change the class? Changing the class is generally when one fighter advances the sport in a meaningful way. Just beating people alone does not mean you changed anything. Would anyone argue that Anderson Silva has changed how MW's fight? Changing a class is what mark coleman did to GnP, invented it.

Lesnar at most will become a great fighter who wins fights, but most likely will become another person lost in a division they can't make it in.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

GMW said:


> I'd agree if he acquired Couture's skill set he could become a dominant fighter, I'm not sure how to argue that.
> 
> It's necessary to point out though, you are discussing Lesnar as if he "will" gain this skill set, not if he does. There is nothing to show that at this point in his career, he will be capable of getting those kinds of skill, but from what he has publicly disclosed, interviews/ufc all access, we can safely say that under his current training methods, he won't be capable of becoming that good.
> 
> ...


I said "should he ever aquire" and have said numerous times in this post "if he takes it seriously" and also used the word "potential" quite often. So it's not necessary to point out things that I did not say. I think he CAN. Will he? I hope so. It would be fun to see. Just because Coleman "created" the Gnp does not mean someone cannot change the class further. Ken Shamrock was great in his day as well but once the class modified he became obsolete. MMA classes are constantly modifying and the sport continues to adapt and its fighters alter approaches and get better, increasing overall skill levels and height of competition. Lesnar is by far a much more superior athlete than Coleman ever was and he can change the class by increasing the level required to compete. This would certainly encourage Heavyweights to do more than take steroids to lose weight, rely on the standup game and have little to no speed, agility or cardio. Lesnar call bring some level of Athletics to the game as opposed to having to rely on a skill set and sheer size alone.


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## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

The way I could see lesnar changing the division..

He is a huge athletic man, like he said going up to UFC81 'The people are starving for a true heavy weight'

If he is as successful as he could be, he will be mimicked to a certain degree. We would probably end up seeing more 'true heavy weights' big, strong, athletic heavy weights, not athletic pre-205ers


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I said "should he ever aquire" and have said numerous times in this post "if he takes it seriously" and also used the word "potential" quite often. So it's not necessary to point out things that I did not say. I think he CAN. Will he? I hope so. It would be fun to see.


I'm aware of what you say directly, but then everything you say about Lesnar, gives the appearance that you think he will end being a great fighter. Probably just the heat of a debate, over analyzing an opinion. 



nissassagame said:


> Just because Coleman "created" the Gnp does not mean someone cannot change the class further. Ken Shamrock was great in his day as well but once the class modified he became obsolete. MMA classes are constantly modifying and the sport continues to adapt and its fighters alter approaches and get better, increasing overall skill levels and height of competition


I was using coleman as an example of what changes the class, not saying because he invented it, it can't be advanced. 



nissassagame said:


> . Lesnar is by far a much more superior athlete than Coleman ever was and he can change the class by increasing the level required to compete. This would certainly encourage Heavyweights to do more than take steroids to lose weight, rely on the standup game and have little to no speed, agility or cardio. Lesnar call bring some level of Athletics to the game as opposed to having to rely on a skill set and sheer size alone.


Athleticism is already part of the sport. The HW division is just behind the times, all lesnar would be doing there is catching up to the lighter weight classes. Maybe this could be viewed as him changing the class, but I'd be reluctant to say it.
Look at the physical ability of all the other champions, specifically GSP.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

GnP is not an effective way to win against top fighters unless you have worldclass submission grappling.

Unfortantly Lesnar at 30 will never have world class submission grappling.

Agressive GnP leads to submission and unless he's facing a guy like Sylvia or Arlovski who don't have active guards.

It doesn't matter how fast you are if you take down a world class submission guy like Werdum on his back he will tap you unless you have fantastic submission defense.

GnP doesn't work unless you have great submission defense which Lesnar lacks.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> But thats what I am saying. They would probably all beat Lesnar. I can't argue that.


So how is Lesnar a force in the division?

Even you admit that he'd be killed by every substantial heavyweight on the planet, I don't see why he even has a bandwagon.



> Given you agree he is the weakest in the divison and you state he is garbage, it only goes to validate my arguement that it is a very small pond.


Are we arguing over whether the UFC heavyweight division sucks? Because, if that's all that this is, then I agree with you.

The UFC heavyweight division sucks.

So does Brock Lesnar.

My point is that Brock Lesnar sucks. I'm not defending the UFC heavyweight division.



> But every guy you mentioned, save a few, have records inflated by wins over majority weak opponents.


Alright, you want to say that.

Then name a fighter who's record isn't inflated by weak opponents.

Everybody fights weak guys early in their career. The guys I've cited have beaten the top of their divisions also.



> You can quote names of fighters, title holders and how fighters look versus other fighters in the cage but thats as "paper" as this sherdog bit you bring up.


*At the beginning of my post I said that if you were going to argue on paper, I would argue on paper too.*

You're right, that was a paper argument. That's what I said at the beginning of my post.



> I guess because I have watched the fights and do know the records I must have gotten my info elsewhere because there's NO WAY i could disagree with YOU and actually know something.


No. There's no way you could know the records, watch the fights and have experienced the hype that was going on at the time and still believe that these guys are jokes.

You're proving my points for me.



> At no point did I ever say Lesnar was better than any of he above mentioned fighters so spare me when you try and claim I did.


You called them all jokes and said that you take Lesnar seriously.

Am I missing something there?



> I said he was weak but could POTENTIALLY become great and change the division.


OK?

So could Cheick Kongo.

So could Brandon Vera.

So could Fabricio Werdum.

So could Christian N'Pumbu or Neil Grove or any of the other dudes I mentioned as being more substantial and more suitable for the division than Lesnar when he was initially signed.



> I also stated the HW division has been weak for a long time.


I agree with you on that.

Saying one thing that's true does not make your entire argument true.



> You can put words in my mouth, thats fine, if thats how you make an arguement, I'll just have to understand that thats how you roll.


I'm quoting you. I don't need to put words in your mouth.

If I'm misquoting you somewhere, point it out to me, because I'd love to see it.



> You can say Arlovski beat Sylvia, Gonzo bat Mirko, and so on and so on, but when a nobody defeats a nobody is he anybody? I think not.


You're going to call all of these guys nobodies??? To defend Brock Lesnar?

As far as I'm concerned, if you consider Nogueira, Arlovski, Sylvia and CroCop nobodies, guys who were world champions in the sport. The best you should be calling Lesnar is a fat, big foreheaded piece of crap.

If you want to call them nobodies, that's fine. It only proves that you're ignorant.



> You can claim I never watched any fights and thats fine, but just because someone hits a ghost punch doesnt mean anything, only that it was a nice punch.


*He knocked out a top tier striker in 15 seconds with a punch nobody saw. During a title fight*

It wasn't just a flash in the pan. At the time people were treating it like the second coming of Christ. I'm not saying Arlovski was the best ever, but you have to understand the context, and you've made it clear that you don't.



> His opponent is what counts, not the strike. Saying any guy is feared is laughable.


Do you know who Paul Buentello is? It doesn't seem like it.



> You have all these insects killing each other and some are more dominant than others, sure, but no lizard has come along yet to wipe them all out.


And you think Lesnar is that lizard?

I'm having a hard time taking you seriously when you say that.

Come on. If we were talking about Fedor and you were talking down Arlovski and Sylvia and Gonzaga and Nogueira and CroCop that would be one thing. But to do this to defend Brock Lesnar is ridiculous.

He isn't even fit to carry these guys' jockstraps, and you're arguing that these guys are garbage?

Call them insects, call them whatever you want. You're proving that you weren't around then. You're proving that you don't know the history and that you don't know the opponents.



> Maybe you believe the hype or view a win as a great thing in any case, but again, big fish, small pond.


Again. Look through the cards that these guys where fighting on. Look at the heavyweights they were fighting against. Do some research. Inform yourself.



> Also, I said and acknowledged that Mirko beat the big name guys. I was stating he was a dissapointment to UFC HW division regardless of what he'd done in pride. And he DID dissapoint.


You also called Mirko a joke, and as good a sense of humor as the guy has, his career isn't a joke.



> I never argued that yet you feel the need to say I did?


You said CroCop was a joke.

If you want to take that back, that's fine by me, but you're the one who brought him into it.



> Mirko only increased my frustration for the HW class. All I was saying is there has been nobody that stands out in a long time


So who do you consider that last standout in the heavyweight division?

EDIT: Thanks to the three guys who have repped me for this thread. It's always appreciated.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

GMW said:


> I'm aware of what you say directly, but then everything you say about Lesnar, gives the appearance that you think he will end being a great fighter. Probably just the heat of a debate, over analyzing an opinion.
> 
> 
> I was using coleman as an example of what changes the class, not saying because he invented it, it can't be advanced.
> ...



I'm not talking about the sport, I'm referring to the divison.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I'm not talking about the sport, I'm referring to the divison.


I'd have to think about it more, but as I already said, I'd be reluctant to say he changed anything. I'll put more thought into that one.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

I never said he was a FORCE. I said he has potential.
He doesn't have a bandwagon, it's a thread topic designed to stimulate conversation and it did 
Now we can agree that the division sucks. Sweet.
I can't name a HW who's numbers are inflated by weak opponents. Thats the point.
You can say I'm proving your points but when you quote me as saying I am taking Lesnar "seriously" you are misquoting and that proves nothing for you whatsoever.
I'm not defending Lesnar! Simpy saying he is different from the rest of the HW class and can bring something to the table other than a cheeseburger.
I know the history and think the HW division has almost always been GARBAGE.
I've done the reseach and I can't be convinced otherwise. A bum beating a bum still makes him a bum. Lesnars still a bum. I admit that. ALMOST all the HW's are bums.
Read everything else I said about both Mirko and Nog. First I acknowledged Mirko was good, but pointed out he blew hard in the UFC. I'm right. I know I am. Nog has taken out some decent names and he too is slightly above the rest. He fight 1 octagon fight, should have lost had Herring not had brain damage and beat the Sloth for a title that MEANS NOTHING. When he beats someone in the octagon worth talking about, pretty-please let me know 
Nog is the Standout becuase of his past but hasn't done anything yet inside the octagon. 1 near loss against a guy he fought 100 times and a win over a giant snail doesnt solidify anything yet. He gets my vote ONLY because he proved he WAS good.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

IronMan said:


> So how is Lesnar a force in the division?
> 
> Even you admit that he'd be killed by every substantial heavyweight on the planet, I don't see why he even has a bandwagon.
> 
> ...


I never said he was a FORCE. I said he has potential.
He doesn't have a bandwagon, it's a thread topic designed to stimulate conversation and it did 
Now we can agree that the division sucks. Sweet.
I can't name a HW who's numbers are inflated by weak opponents. Thats the point.
You can say I'm proving your points but when you quote me as saying I am taking Lesnar "seriously" you are misquoting and that proves nothing for you whatsoever.
I'm not defending Lesnar! Simpy saying he is different from the rest of the HW class and can bring something to the table other than a cheeseburger.
I know the history and think the HW division has almost always been GARBAGE.
I've done the reseach and I can't be convinced otherwise. A bum beating a bum still makes him a bum. Lesnars still a bum. I admit that. ALMOST all the HW's are bums.
Read everything else I said about both Mirko and Nog. First I acknowledged Mirko was good, but pointed out he blew hard in the UFC. I'm right. I know I am. Nog has taken out some decent names and he too is slightly above the rest. He fight 1 octagon fight, should have lost had Herring not had brain damage and beat the Sloth for a title that MEANS NOTHING. When he beats someone in the octagon worth talking about, pretty-please let me know 
Nog is the Standout becuase of his past but hasn't done anything yet inside the octagon. 1 near loss against a guy he fought 100 times and a win over a giant snail doesnt solidify anything yet. He gets my vote ONLY because he proved he WAS good.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> I never said he was a FORCE. I said he has potential.
> He doesn't have a bandwagon, it's a thread topic designed to stimulate conversation and it did
> Now we can agree that the division sucks. Sweet.
> I can't name a HW who's numbers are inflated by weak opponents. Thats the point.
> ...


So I take it from this post that the UFC is the only thing that matters in your opinion.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

MLS said:


> So I take it from this post that the UFC is the only thing that matters in your opinion.


No, as I said, I acknowledged Mirko and Nog's past outside the UFC. Also, this conversation was based around the UFC HW class so thats where the focus should be.


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> No, as I said, I acknowledged Mirko and Nog's past outside the UFC. Also, this conversation was based around the UFC HW class so thats where the focus should be.


Who in the hell do you *NOT* consider a bum in the HW division?


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> No, as I said, I acknowledged Mirko and Nog's past outside the UFC. Also, this conversation was based around the UFC HW class so thats where the focus should be.


You can't look at the UFC's HW division without looking at the other orgs divisions too since every fighter has started somewhere else. Just because a fighter is in the UFC now doesn't mean their past accomplishments just disappear.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

SlaveTrade said:


> Who in the hell do you *NOT* consider a bum in the HW division?


*NOG*

The rest are garbage. He will join my garbage list unless he smashed everyone in the UFC HW class.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> No, as I said, I acknowledged Mirko and Nog's past outside the UFC. Also, this conversation was based around the UFC HW class so thats where the focus should be.


You only acknowledge what they did by putting it out there. You don't seem to understand or are incapable of realsing what they did before the UFC.

The UFC HW division is full of guys that fought in other place besides the UFC, oh wait that is how it is for 99% of the fighters. You can't talk about how someone is bad (like you did Mirko) just because they did bad in the UFC.



nissassagame said:


> *NOG*
> 
> The rest are garbage. He will join my garbage list unless he smashed everyone in the UFC HW class.


So you mean beating pretty much everyone not named Fedor would even get him close to bum status? Again you are just looking at the UFC.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> You can't look at the UFC's HW division without looking at the other orgs divisions too since every fighter has started somewhere else. Just because a fighter is in the UFC now doesn't mean their past accomplishments just disappear.


Only Nog and Mirko have anything worthy of mention outside the octagon. Now CroSuck is banished. Did you even read what I said?!


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Only Nog and Mirko have anything worthy of mention outside the octagon. Now CroSuck is banished. Did you even read what I said?!


I read what you said.

Cro Cop was not banished from the UFC. He asked to leave and go to Japan and also to train some more so that he could heal his injuries and rack up a few wins to regain his confidence and will to fight.

Herring accomplishments outside of the octagon are worthy of mentioning as well as Werdum's. Do you realize Werdum was the one training Cro Cop in bjj because he is phenomenal at it?


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

MLS said:


> You only acknowledge what they did by putting it out there. You don't seem to understand or are incapable of realsing what they did before the UFC.
> 
> The UFC HW division is full of guys that fought in other place besides the UFC, oh wait that is how it is for 99% of the fighters. You can't talk about how someone is bad (like you did Mirko) just because they did bad in the UFC.
> 
> ...


All I said about Mirko was that he sucked inside THE OCTAGON and thus showed my frustration with the division(they all suck and when hope came that CroCop would dominate he got murdered and ran away with his tail between his legs). I can talk about Mirko whatever way I want. I know he has skill. I know he was good in PRIDE. I know he sucked BAD in the UFC. Maybe you don't understand english or havn't read what I've said about CroCop ALL ALONG. He was very good. He sucked in the 8 sider. Is that simple enough?


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I never said he was a FORCE. I said he has potential.


So does Kongo, Vera, Werdum and pretty much every guy under the age of 30 in that division. Are they going to change the course of heavyweight MMA? I don't think so.



> He doesn't have a bandwagon, it's a thread topic designed to stimulate conversation and it did


Good, because he's a terrible fighter.



> Now we can agree that the division sucks. Sweet.


I've been on record saying that for a long time.

Just so it's out there, I put up a piece in January saying it.

Notice that Lesnar's name was not in my list of prospects. There's a reason for that.



> I can't name a HW who's numbers are inflated by weak opponents. Thats the point.


I assume you mean "aren't" inflated by weak opponents.

And the question wasn't "a heavyweight" it was "a fighter." Feel free to go outside the division if you have to.



> You can say I'm proving your points but when you quote me as saying I am taking Lesnar "seriously" you are misquoting and that proves nothing for you whatsoever.


Wait? Are you saying that you don't take Lesnar seriously?

Because if you don't take Lesnar seriously then tell me, and we can be done here.



> I'm not defending Lesnar!


Then what are you doing?



> Simpy saying he is different from the rest of the HW class and can bring something to the table other than a cheeseburger.


That sounds like you're defending him to me.

You're defending his ability to compete in the UFC heavyweight division.

You're defending his ability to change the way that the UFC heavyweight division is set up.

Both of those things, I'm fairly certain, I have said I disagree with.



> I know the history and think the HW division has almost always been GARBAGE.


Really?

You know that there was a time when nine of the top ten fighters in the world were in the UFC heavyweight division, and the other was Mark Kerr.

I could give you a laundry list of names, but your complete inability to provide any names or dates or any data about anything makes it impossible to argue with you.

How about this:

I'll say that the UFC heavyweight division during UFC 30-36 was the best division in the history of MMA. You tell me a period during which a division has been better than that one.



> I've done the reseach and I can't be convinced otherwise.


Then present it.

What do you know about Paul Buentello?

Show me you know the history and I will start treating you like you know it.



> A bum beating a bum still makes him a bum. Lesnars still a bum. I admit that.


I agree with that.



> ALMOST all the HW's are bums.


Ummm...........

Again. Show me you know who Paul Buentello is and we'll talk.

I mean, even if you just read the info on him on wikipedia, I'll be happy.



> Read everything else I said about both Mirko and Nog.


Why? You're going to tell me anyway.



> First I acknowledged Mirko was good, but pointed out he blew hard in the UFC. I'm right. I know I am.


You also called him a joke. So you're wrong.



> Nog has taken out some decent names and he too is slightly above the rest. He fight 1 octagon fight, should have lost had Herring not had brain damage and beat the Sloth for a title that MEANS NOTHING.


Ummm.... OK.

So you're going to disrespect the guy as a fighter because of the two fights of his you've seen.

Go watch Nog vs. Bob Sapp and tell me that that's not incredible, tell me that the guy who does that isn't a force.



> When he beats someone in the octagon worth talking about, pretty-please let me know


Apparently, you don't believe that a credible heavyweight has ever walked the face of the earth.

Tell me who you think the best heavyweight ever is, and we'll talk.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> I read what you said.
> 
> Cro Cop was not banished from the UFC. He asked to leave and go to Japan and also to train some more so that he could heal his injuries and rack up a few wins to regain his confidence and will to fight.
> 
> Herring accomplishments outside of the octagon are worthy of mentioning as well as Werdum's. Do you realize Werdum was the one training Cro Cop in bjj because he is phenomenal at it?


At no point have I ever mentioned Werdum in a positive or negative way. Actually, I never mentioned Herring much aside from stating he blew an opportunity for victory over NOG becuase he's braindead. As for Mirko, he can say what he wants as for his reasons for Japan but he's not fooling anyone. He got crushed. He looked bad. He sucked. He Left.
I hope we see the old CroCop, I really-really do, but lets face it, rigt now he looks like a has been.


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

Wow, since you've said Noguiera is the only HW fighter who's not garbage, let's just scrap the HW division and call it the Noguiera division.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> All I said about Mirko was that he sucked inside THE OCTAGON and thus showed my frustration with the division(they all suck and when hope came that CroCop would dominate he got murdered and ran away with his tail between his legs). I can talk about Mirko whatever way I want. I know he has skill. I know he was good in PRIDE. I know he sucked BAD in the UFC. Maybe you don't understand english or havn't read what I've said about CroCop ALL ALONG. He was very good. He sucked in the 8 sider. Is that simple enough?


So how is this not just looking at what he did in the UFC and making an assumption off of that? You say he sucks, sucked in the UFC, is a bum, but then say he has skill and did well in Pride. Once again your reasoning for him sucking is because he sucked in the UFC. How is this not just looking at what he did in the UFC?


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> At no point have I ever mentioned Werdum in a positive or negative way. Actually, I never mentioned Herring much aside from stating he blew an opportunity for victory over NOG becuase he's braindead. As for Mirko, he can say what he wants as for his reasons for Japan but he's not fooling anyone. He got crushed. He looked bad. He sucked. He Left.
> I hope we see the old CroCop, I really-really do, but lets face it, rigt now he looks like a has been.


You didn't mention Werdum or Herring directly but you still mentioned them indirectly by stating that the UFC HW division is full of bums. All I was doing was pointing out a few "bums" who's accomplishments outside of the UFC are worthy of talking about like Mirko's and Nogs.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Anyone who thinks Werdum is a bum is crazy. In fact Werdum has 100x more potential than Lesnar since on teh ground he can own anyone and wrestling is much easier to learn than submission grappling.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Kongo, Vera and Werdum are the prototype HW's we have seen for years. They have potential, sure, but they could never chage a class given they are the same crap we have always seen. Lesnar is different, like it or not. He's the only HW in ages that looks like he could dominate GnP.
I'm taking Lesnar seriously when he makes a move on the division. I have hope for him like I have said all along and think he has potential. 
As far as defending him, I do believe most of the combating we have done has surrounded the HW class and other fighters to be quite honest. Again, I said I have hope, think he has potential to be great and is something refreshing. If you deny the last two you are more of a fool than I amagined. I suspect you won't.
Did I not say he would have trouble with most of the fighters? Yep. How is that saying he can compete RIGHT NOW? Can he compete eventually? Thats what I have said and most have agreed with me when I say, IF HE TAKES IT SERIOUSLY.
Please stop twisting words to prove points. You go from making decent points to claiming I said this, that and everything else.
What I said about Mirko and Nog has already been written so like I said go read it.
He was a Joke in the UFC, thats what I said. I am right. Yawn.
Please spare me the Bob Sapp circus show. BJ PENN could probably make most NFLers cry. I havnt disrespected Nog. Please read. 
Again, for the 100th time, Nog is clearly the frontrunner of the UFC HW class. Please read.
Paul Buentello...Big Hitter, Big Mouth, On Arlovski's HL reel....beat up Tank(!!!!!!), quiets crowds because he rants and raves pure nothingness. Calls out Kimbo(wow! he wants to fight a bum) Nice kickers though. From Texas so he isnt worth much


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

SlaveTrade said:


> Wow, since you've said Noguiera is the only HW fighter who's not garbage, let's just scrap the HW division and call it the Noguiera division.


Holy Crap! What an Idea. Send the UFC and email!


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

IronMan said:


> So does Kongo, Vera, Werdum and pretty much every guy under the age of 30 in that division. Are they going to change the course of heavyweight MMA? I don't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kongo, Vera and Werdum are the prototype HW's we have seen for years. They have potential, sure, but they could never chage a class given they are the same crap we have always seen. Lesnar is different, like it or not. He's the only HW in ages that looks like he could dominate GnP.
I'm taking Lesnar seriously when he makes a move on the division. I have hope for him like I have said all along and think he has potential. 
As far as defending him, I do believe most of the combating we have done has surrounded the HW class and other fighters to be quite honest. Again, I said I have hope, think he has potential to be great and is something refreshing. If you deny the last two you are more of a fool than I amagined. I suspect you won't.
Did I not say he would have trouble with most of the fighters? Yep. How is that saying he can compete RIGHT NOW? Can he compete eventually? Thats what I have said and most have agreed with me when I say, IF HE TAKES IT SERIOUSLY.
Please stop twisting words to prove points. You go from making decent points to claiming I said this, that and everything else.
What I said about Mirko and Nog has already been written so like I said go read it.
CroSuck was a Joke in the UFC, thats what I said. I am right. Yawn.
Please spare me the Bob Sapp circus show. BJ PENN could probably make most NFLers cry. I havnt disrespected Nog. Please read. 
Again, for the 100th time, Nog is clearly the frontrunner of the UFC HW class. Please read.
Paul Buentello...Big Hitter, Big Mouth, On Arlovski's HL reel....beat up Tank(!!!!!!), quiets crowds because he rants and raves pure nothingness. Calls out Kimbo(wow! he wants to fight a bum) Nice kickers though. From Texas so he isnt worth much


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

bbjd7 said:


> Anyone who thinks Werdum is a bum is crazy. In fact Werdum has 100x more potential than Lesnar since on teh ground he can own anyone and wrestling is much easier to learn than submission grappling.


Again, I havn't said anything about Werdum. And coose to keep it that way. Quoting me on Werdum when I don't mention his name is pointless.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Plus Brock is Athletic, which we have aleady discussed. Something that cannot be said for most of the HW division.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Again, I havn't said anything about Werdum. And coose to keep it that way. Quoting me on Werdum when I don't mention his name is pointless.


You didn't mention Werdum's name directly but you said he was a bum and sucked when you said Nog was the only good fighter in the HW division.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

SlaveTrade said:


> Wow, since you've said Noguiera is the only HW fighter who's not garbage, let's just scrap the HW division and call it the Noguiera division.


I said Nog isn't garbage, YET


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

If you think Noguiera is the only one that's not a bum in the HW division, I'm sorry but there is no way around it or another way to put it.

You are simply an *idiot.*


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> You didn't mention Werdum's name directly but you said he was a bum and sucked when you said Nog was the only good fighter in the HW division.



I didnt mention his name directly. Exactly.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

SlaveTrade said:


> If you think Noguiera is the only one that's not a bum in the HW division, I'm sorry but there is no way around it or another way to put it.
> 
> You are simply an *idiot.*


Glad I don't think that. Whew. Wouldnt want a scholar like you looking down your nose at me you troll.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> I didnt mention his name directly. Exactly.


This statement proves nothing. Even if you don't say his name but say that the whole HW division sucks and is full of bums then you are saying he sucks and is a bum.


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> I didnt mention his name directly. Exactly.


You say everyone in the UFC HW division, other than Noguiera, is a bum.

Werdum is in the UFC HW division, and his name isn't Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera, so you did indeed say he was a bum.

Are you in ESL?


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I didnt mention his name directly. Exactly.


He's right though, you never said Werdum is garbage, but you said the entire HW division is garbage besides Nog. We can then assume Werdum is garbage because every who isn't Noguieura is garbage.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

SlaveTrade said:


> You say everyone in the UFC HW division, other than Noguiera, is a bum.
> 
> Werdum is in the UFC HW division, and his name isn't Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera, so you did indeed say he was a bum.
> 
> Are you in ESL?



learn english tard.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> Kongo, Vera and Werdum are the prototype HW's we have seen for years.


Really. When was the last time we saw a heavyweight who could move like Kongo or Vera?

Who was the last Mundial champion to hold a UFC title?

The answers to both questions are "never" and "no one."



> They have potential, sure, but they could never chage a class given they are the same crap we have always seen.


Really, because, what I can tell, Lesnar actually is the same crap we've always seen.



> Lesnar is different, like it or not. He's the only HW in ages that looks like he could dominate GnP.


Come on.

The guy is a carbon copy of Mark Kerr and Coleman in an age where those skills are obselete.

Unlike Werdum and Vera and Kongo, who have skillsets on a different level than previous UFC heavyweight champions, Lesnar doesn't have any more wrestling ability than Kerr or Coleman. In fact, he's probably not even as good as they were.



> As far as defending him, I do believe most of the combating we have done has surrounded the HW class and other fighters to be quite honest.


Only recently. We started on Lesnar.



> Again, I said I have hope, think he has potential to be great and is something refreshing. If you deny the last two you are more of a fool than I amagined. I suspect you won't.


I don't think Lesnar is refreshing. I think his big mouth smells like onions and garlic and his smack talk is tired.

I think his fighting style is terrible and something I've seen from (as I mentioned) Kerr and Coleman. It was fun when they were new. Lesnar is not.

Lesnar has potential athletically. But he doesn't have any more than the guys who are actually dominating the division and he's not even using what he does have.



> Did I not say he would have trouble with most of the fighters? Yep. How is that saying he can compete RIGHT NOW?


He can't compete right now and he's not even interested in learning how.

How is that exciting you?



> Can he compete eventually? Thats what I have said and most have agreed with me when I say, IF HE TAKES IT SERIOUSLY.


If Kimbo took it seriously, he might be able to compete too.

Neither of them are and, until they do, they are both skidmarks on the ass of this division.



> Please stop twisting words to prove points. You go from making decent points to claiming I said this, that and everything else.


I quoted you. It's right there.



> Please spare me the Bob Sapp circus show. BJ PENN could probably make most NFLers cry. I havnt disrespected Nog. Please read.


Again. Did you watch that fight?

Nog went to the hospital afterwards. So if you think that BJ could do that, you're obviously more than a little crazy.



> Paul Buentello...Big Hitter, Big Mouth, On Arlovski's HL reel....beat up Tank(!!!!!!), quiets crowds because he rants and raves pure nothingness. Calls out Kimbo(wow! he wants to fight a bum) Nice kickers though. From Texas so he isnt worth much


Respected for having the best hands in the division. Holds a UFC record of 3-1. He's stopped at least a dozen small show legends and despite his slowing career still works as a coach for one fo the best teams in the country.

I mean, if that's all you know about the guy, that's fine. Again, though, you're making points for me.

The point here, though, is that Lesnar is his generation's Mark Kerr in a world where Mark Kerr-style fighters are garbage.

Lesnar has as much potential as anybody else and no desire to use it. He's a massive waste of money.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

GMW said:


> He's right though, you never said Werdum is garbage, but you said the entire HW division is garbage besides Nog. We can then assume Werdum is garbage because every who isn't Noguieura is garbage.


when you assume you make an ASS out of U and ME


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

Can someone tell me exactly what is left to discuss? 15 effin pages of the same shit over and over, let it go.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> when you assume you make an ASS out of U and ME


It's not an assumption it's fact. When you state that everyone in the division except for Nog is garbage then you are indirectly calling Werdum, along with everyone else in the UFC HW division, garbage.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

unlike kerr and coleman, lesnar isnt un unathletic piece of trash. i think you may be mad because he gives you sexual feelings you dont want to talk about because not a word of what you rave has any defense. you prove all my points exactly. thanks.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> It's not an assumption it's fact. When you state that everyone in the division except for Nog is garbage then you are indirectly calling Werdum, along with everyone else in the UFC HW division, garbage.


first its an assumption and now its a fact? someone needs a nappy.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

nissassagame said:


> first its an assumption and now its a fact? someone needs a nappy.


but since you need an opinion on werdum so bad. he's a great bjj guy, a crappy coach and one hell of a bum of an mma fighter raise01:


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> first its an assumption and now its a fact? someone needs a nappy.


You are retarded and have no idea how to debate. What don't you understand that by saying everyone except for one person in a division sucks means you are saying that each individual person in that division sucks. If I say that every team in the MLB sucks except for the Red Sox then that means that I am saying the Yankees suck as well even though I didnt mention their name directly. This is the same thing you did with the UFC HW division and Werdum. Do you understand now or is your IQ too low to comprehend this?


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

I wonder if someone can get banned just for being too stupid.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> You are retarded and have no idea how to debate. What don't you understand that by saying everyone except for one person in a division sucks means you are saying that each individual person in that division sucks. If I say that every team in the MLB sucks except for the Red Sox then that means that I am saying the Yankees suck as well even though I didnt mention their name directly. This is the same thing you did with the UFC HW division and Werdum. Do you understand now or is your IQ too low to comprehend this?


If yo don't like what i have to say, don't read it.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

SlaveTrade said:


> I wonder if someone can get banned just for being too stupid.


I'm not sure but if they try to ban you for it, i'll do my best to petition against it. Now get back on the short bus and shhhhhh.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

SlaveTrade said:


> I wonder if someone can get banned just for being too stupid.


CroCop blows. Go to sleep like Mirko beatch did in the UFC. Hahahaha.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> If yo don't like what i have to say, don't read it.


Me disagreeing with you is part of debating so that's why I read what you said.

Before you were kind of making points but with your last comments you're heading into troll land. You can't insult respected members like GMW, Slavetrade, and IRONMAN and think no one will say anything about it.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

Damn, this is stupid now.

Every fighter in the UFC heavyweight division sucks besides Nog.

Werdum is in both the HW division and is not Nog.

Therefore he sucks.

How don't you follow that nissa? This is your logic anyhow


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> CroCop blows. Go to sleep like Mirko beatch did in the UFC. Hahahaha.


Of course he sucks, his name isn't Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera.


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## ash (Oct 15, 2006)

IronMan said:


> I can type it.
> 
> In fact, I am typing it right now.
> 
> ...


How cute. There are really only two things that can be going on here. One is that you're really confused, in which case you are really an idiot; I don't believe that. The other is that you understand my point but just can't think of anything intelligent to say in response, so you respond with a few quick lines that have no relavance, feigning ignorance. 

Yeah, that last one sounds about right :thumb02:

You know, on a lot of the issues we agree, I just find it amazing how closed-minded you are about Brock. Sure, you have an opinion which you are entitled to. In fact I see it as a well-informed opinion. Don't necessarily agree with it, but whatever, thats how it goes. But you're really trying to play it off like you've got the guy's future in some crystal ball, and anyone who disagrees is just stupid. Everyone who's excited about him's an idiot, right?

And you take it to the point where you even discount Mir's opinion as not being as well-informed as yours...which is a joke. It also happens to be the point I was getting at in the original post, on the off chance that you really are just confused.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

ash said:


> How cute. There are really only two things that can be going on here. One is that you're really confused, in which case you are really an idiot; I don't believe that. The other is that you understand my point but just can't think of anything intelligent to say in response, so you respond with a few quick lines that have no relavance, feigning ignorance.
> 
> Yeah, that last one sounds about right :thumb02:
> 
> ...


You made a boring forum cliche and I called you on it and I'm an idiot? OK.

I'm not closed minded about Brock.

If Brock Lesnar shows up and proves to me that he deserves to fight in the top ranks of this sport, then I'll talk about him like he deserves to fight in the top ranks of this sport.

He has not shown me that he can, and so I'll treat him like every other fighter who acts like they deserve to fight the best without showing me anything worthwhile.

I'm not discounting Mir's opinion. I wasn't even talking about Mir's opinion. There are alot of things that I disagree with Frank on, but I generally respect his opinions, just like I respect any top tier fighter's.

Everybody who's excited about Mir isn't stupid, but they are a bit too jumpy. The guy has done nothing to warrant your respect, and yet you give it to him anyway.

I'm a little harder to please than that.

If you think that I would discount Mir as not being as well informed as I am, Mir didn't believe Lesnar took his MMA training seriously. Mir didn't (and doesn't) believe that Lesnar is a top tier heavyweight.

The reason why Mir talks about Lesnar the way that he does is because he knows that Lesnar is responsible for him getting a title shot.

When Mir is talking up Lesnar, he is talking up himself. If you don't see that then you're not paying attention.

Still, my point is, and has been throughout this thread, that there's no evidence Lesnar is a top fighter, nor is there evidence that he is trying to become a top fighter. In case you missed that.


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

Don't you think this has gone on long enough. How much is there to say really about Brock Lesnar? He might become good, he might not, just watch the results. Also, Nog is not the only good HW in the UFC right now. There are just too FEW good HWs in the ufc right now. And I am hoping for CroCop to come back strong. What happened to him happened to Dan Henderson, Chuck Liddell and WAND: Loosing to 2 or more guys in a row. That's no reason to say he sucks.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

joppp said:


> Don't you think this has gone on long enough. How much is there to say really about Brock Lesnar? He might become good, he might not, just watch the results. Also, Nog is not the only good HW in the UFC right now. There are just too FEW good HWs in the ufc right now. And I am hoping for CroCop to come back strong. What happened to him happened to Dan Henderson, Chuck Liddell and WAND: Loosing to 2 or more guys in a row. That's no reason to say he sucks.


Smart post. About sums it all up, I say.

As far as the Brock-bashing goes, I think most of that disappeared after he fought Mir. He had a veteran heavyweight and former champion in serious trouble.

I'm very interested to see how this fight against Herring is going to go down.


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

I don't know what to say to this thread.


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

Well apparently you can say it got at least one member banned...
Yup, didn't see that one coming.


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

Don't you kids know what the point of a "Bandwagon" thread is?

It's to blindly show your support, not debate about who's the better fighter. There's plenty of other threads out there for that.

Keep it clean or I'm closin this bietch.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

which member was that?


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

cplmac said:


> Well apparently you can say it got at least one member banned...
> Yup, didn't see that one coming.



who got banned for this?


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