# Tank Kimbo question



## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

We've all seen the horrrrible fight... But I ust had a convo at work, what do you guys think... Kimbo vs Tank in his prime?

And when do you consider tank being in his prime?


----------



## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

Tank never had a prime. He has always been a no-talent, no-heart, no-cardio brawler. He just used to fight worse fighters, so he won occasionally. Kimbo beats him no matter what era.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Wawaweewa said:


> Tank never had a prime. He has always been a no-talent, no-heart, no-cardio brawler. He just used to fight worse fighters, so he won occasionally. Kimbo beats him no matter what era.


So Tank's carreer has been like Kimbo's?


----------



## Andreas Miko (May 28, 2007)

J.P. said:


> So Tank's carreer has been like Kimbo's?


Not sure why the hate on Kimbo. He has never said he is the best. He always says he is learning and hopes he can compete with the best so what is everyones one problem with him.

This man is living the American dream. He has gotten himself off the streets all by self promotion, decided to take the sport serious by getting a trainer, the first 2 people he fought sucked but Thomson is a step up from them so lets see what happens. The man is slowly fighting his was up from bottom to best. Let the man do his thing.

I have never seen one coment where Kimbo has said he is the best and that he could beat this fighter or that fighter. Anyway, I am happy for a man who is trying the best to make something of himself. Thats alot more than many other people.


----------



## Pyros (Apr 16, 2008)

I wouldn't have a problem with him, if he wasn't main eventing over other fighters much more talented than him, and making a shitload of money just because he beat some bums on youtube. So thanks for your advice, but I'll keep hating Kimbo all I want, it makes me fell all warma and fuzzy inside .


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Andreas Miko said:


> Not sure why the hate on Kimbo. He has never said he is the best. He always says he is learning and hopes he can compete with the best so what is everyones one problem with him.
> 
> This man is living the American dream. He has gotten himself off the streets all by self promotion, decided to take the sport serious by getting a trainer, the first 2 people he fought sucked but Thomson is a step up from them so lets see what happens. The man is slowly fighting his was up from bottom to best. Let the man do his thing.
> 
> I have never seen one coment where Kimbo has said he is the best and that he could beat this fighter or that fighter. Anyway, I am happy for a man who is trying the best to make something of himself. Thats alot more than many other people.


I don't like or hate Kimbo.

I hate the fact that he took MMA into the street and could've gotten some people hurt in unsanctioned fights with no doctors or officials present that knew a shit about real problems that could have occurred in that situation.

And yes he has stated that he will beat anyone that MMA can throw at him. He coined the term "Tappin is for bitches" Of course he's obviously never faced a seasoned BJJ fighter on an Elite level so his ignorance is bliss.
And he has claimed to be the best. Go ahead and google some of his interviews before you fight for his honer.

If he is as good as he says, than there is no reason to hate him, he'll deserve the respect in the cage that he is seeking. But it's hard to tell unless he fights real athletes and not candidates for date my semi-pro buddy.

But well your comment has too many holes in it. Your heart is in the right place but I'm not sure if you really know what you're talking about.


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

Pyros said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with him, if he wasn't main eventing over other fighters much more talented than him, and making a shitload of money just because he beat some bums on youtube.


Couldn't have said it better myself. If the guy's main eventing, making six figures a fight, he should be fighting some top level competition. I like Thompson, but he just got KO'd by Brett Rodgers who is also on this card. 

I have to repeat again... SIX FIGURES PER FIGHT. Clay Guida doesn't get nearly as much as Kimbo and he's fought some true wars to get where he's at. Kimbo knocked down some tomato cans and is riding a wave of fame provided by the blood and sweat of the REAL MMA FIGHTERS that gave this SPORT it's popularity. I've said this a lot, but Kimbo is a huge step backward in MMA and I can't wait until his gravy train comes to a halt.


----------



## Pyros (Apr 16, 2008)

He even challenged Chuck Lidell to a fight (obviously because he knows the UFC doesn't copromote, because if he ever faces Lidell he's getting his ass kicked).


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

But going back to to the subject of the thread...

I don't know how people think that Tank in his Prime wouldn't have (probably) beaten Kimbo.:confused02: As unskilled as he was, Tank was quite the beast and could have dismantled someone with Kimbo's limited skillset with relative ease IMO.

Don't get me wrong, Tank sucked against someone with skill. But on a pure "let's just go at each other swingin'" style of fight that both men share, I think that Tank in his so-called "prime" would have overwhelmed Kimbo. Compare some of Tank's early wins to any of Kimbo's. Tank won in more impressive fashion against tougher opponents back in the day IMO.:dunno:


----------



## ralphbenjamin (Feb 17, 2008)

J.P. said:


> So Tank's carreer has been like Kimbo's?


how can you call it a "career" for kimbo.. he's fought 2 fights hahaha, nice.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Right......... It should have read like this.........

So Tank's carreer looks similar to Kimbos......outings?


----------



## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

J.P. said:


> And yes he has stated that he will beat anyone that MMA can throw at him. He coined the term "Tappin is for bitches" Of course he's obviously never faced a seasoned BJJ fighter on an Elite level so his ignorance is bliss.
> And he has claimed to be the best. Go ahead and google some of his interviews before you fight for his honer.





> I mean, you know, he's fighting. I would never disrespect anybody or underestimate anyone. I have respect for everyone as a fighter. Especially as a professional, he's a professional boxer. I give him all the respect in the world as a fighter. When two men get in the ring, the best man is gonna walk out of there. The better man is going to win. I have all the respect in the world for every fighter.


http://www.touchgloves.com/news/2007/03/kimbo_slice_interview_with_tou.html


> *Sam Caplan:* Coming from street fights into mixed martial arts, have you found you've had to make any big adjustments?
> *Kimbo Slice:* Yeah, there have been some major adjustments. Just everything. My life, the way that I am with my family. Being patient and being more dedicated to things and things that are more important. My life has been a complete transition coming from the streets and being a professional fighter now.
> *Sam Caplan: *So your life has changed. Has it changed for the better?
> *Kimbo Slice:* Yeah. Definitely.





> The heavyweights I know are big, big names; guys that have been in the business for years like Bas Rutten and Randy Couture and those guys are guys that I have a lot of respect for. Cro Cop, Fedor, and those guys -- I look up to those guys. I hope that I can stay in the game long enough so that I can be on their level and have the respect that they get.





> *Sam Caplan:* You have a lot of support out there and you're getting a lot of love from the people but you do have some critics here and there. They feel like there's no room in MMA for someone with a street fighting background. How do you respond to those kind of people?
> *Kimbo Slice: *Everybody needs critics. Everybody needs critics. Without those type of people, people like us wouldn't exist. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I'm cool with that. I need some more. I wouldn't mind more people critiquing me.


http://samcaplan.proelite.com/62364

Arrogant bastard! 

As for bitches tappin, it seems a missing sense of humor and a concept of the paid endorsement are the issues, not Ferguson himself:
http://www.cagepotato.com/2008/02/07/kimbo-slice-loves-cagepotato/


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

http://www.cagepotato.com/2008/02/07/kimbo-slice-loves-cagepotato/[/QUOTE]

So, in retrospect if Kimbo ever taps he's a bitch??


----------



## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

J.P. said:


> So, in retrospect if Kimbo ever taps he's a bitch??


 That occurrence would be in the future, so it's speculation, not retrospect.

But I would speculate that in the event of Ferguson's tapping, it's likely that people who don't like him will use that script reading as evidence that he is, in fact, a bitch. It would be similar to the people that claim W. Silva and Mark Coleman are clean-shaven homosexuals with the power of flight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJlSAj4H4tg


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

jasvll... Did he or did he not release a video stating that he wanted to fight Chuck Lidell in response to Lidell's statements that "Kimbo hasn't fought anybody yet."? :confused02:

If so, it seems to me like he's trying to portray himself as a current legitimate contender or top tier fighter.:dunno:


----------



## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

stitch1z said:


> jasvll... Did he or did he not release a video stating that he wanted to fight Chuck Lidell in response to Lidell's statements that "Kimbo hasn't fought anybody yet."? :confused02:
> 
> If so, it seems to me like he's trying to portray himself as a current legitimate contender or top tier fighter.:dunno:


 Ferguson responded to someone who said he wasn't legitimate because he hadn't fought anyone noteworthy by requesting a fight with the former champ who said it. He didn't argue about whether or not he was a legitimate contender/top tier fighter, which isn't even relevant to the claims I was responding to, which were that Ferguson said he 'will beat anyone mma can throw at him' and 'has claimed to be the best.'


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

jasvll said:


> Ferguson responded to someone who said he wasn't legitimate because he hadn't fought anyone noteworthy by requesting a fight with the former champ who said it. He didn't argue about whether or not he was a legitimate contender/top tier fighter, which isn't even relevant to the claims I was responding to, which were that Ferguson said he 'will beat anyone mma can throw at him' and 'has claimed to be the best.'


So are you saying that you interpreted Kimbo's video response to Chuck Lidell as "You're right Chuck, I'm not all that. But I'd like to fight you because you said it" 
If that's not your interpretation, then I don't get what point you're trying to get accross here. :dunno:

My interpretation is that he was suggesting that Lidell is wrong and he is willing to fight Chuck under any circumstances to prove it. Which I think is BS and Kimbo knows is BS and he wouldn't have even put the challenge out there if there was any chance of this match-up becoming a reality. Because he would be exposed as "not the best"


----------



## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

stitch1z said:


> So are you saying that you interpreted Kimbo's video response to Chuck Lidell as "You're right Chuck, I'm not all that. But I'd like to fight you because you said it"
> If that's not your interpretation, then I don't get what point you're trying to get accross here. :dunno:


 No, I'm saying that Liddell said Ferguson needs to fight someone meaningful to prove himself, and Ferguson agreed to those terms. He also said that anyone that has a problem with him should see him about it, not anyone else. That's a far cry from 'I will beat anyone mma can throw at me' and 'I'm the best,' wouldn't you agree?




> My interpretation is that he was suggesting that Lidell is wrong and he is willing to fight Chuck under any circumstances to prove it. Which I think is BS and Kimbo knows is BS and he wouldn't have even put the challenge out there if there was any chance of this match-up becoming a reality. Because he would be exposed as "not the best"


 The problem is that all of that is coming from your own head, not Ferguson's mouth. Besides, we could claim that Liddell only called Ferguson because he knew he could hide behind UFC's exclusivity clause, something Ferguson's contract doesn't include.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

jasvll said:


> Ferguson responded to someone who said he wasn't legitimate because he hadn't fought anyone noteworthy by requesting a fight with the former champ who said it. He didn't argue about whether or not he was a legitimate contender/top tier fighter, which isn't even relevant to the claims I was responding to, which were that Ferguson said he 'will beat anyone mma can throw at him' and 'has claimed to be the best.'


Uh-huh, okay it is very diplomatic of you to defend Fergie. And you are obviously an intelligent individual. I myself wish that I could conjure the interviews that I'm speaking of in which I've made my opinions on Kimbos ignorant mind state.

The fact is that he said what I heard. But......that now is neither here nor there. I beleive the little video footage that you displayed on W. Silva and your opinions on other peoples concept of his sexuality is as irrelevant as how much change I have in my pocket .

If you so choose to ponder that mans sexual preference, I will leave you to your buisness. When and if Kimbo has been shown the proper way to address the media, which obviously has taken place I'm not sure.

But your insert is a different from the jawjacking that I have been accustomed to. I am however glad that he is begining to display a bit of humility. Because I beleive he'll need it in the future.


----------



## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

J.P. said:


> Uh-huh, okay it is very diplomatic of you to defend Fergie. And you are obviously an intelligent individual. I myself wish that I could conjure the interviews that I'm speaking of in which I've made my opinions on Kimbos ignorant mind state.


 Conjure seems like the appropriate word :


> *conjure*, conjure up, invoke, evoke, stir, call down, arouse, bring up, put forward, call forth (summon into action or *bring into existence*, often *as if by magic*) _"raise the specter of unemployment"; "he conjured wild birds in the air"; "call down the spirits from the mountain"_





> The fact is that he said what I heard. But......that now is neither here nor there.


 Yet by your own admission, you've failed to 'conjure' any evidence that supports this supposed 'fact.' Things that can be shown to be true are facts. Things that can't are matters of belief (see your next statement).



> I beleive the little video footage that you displayed on W. Silva and your opinions on other peoples concept of his sexuality is as irrelevant as how much change I have in my pocket .


 Perhaps that's because you're convinced your two cents is worth a fortune? 

Again, the connection between the two videos are that they are both commercials, not interviews. In both cases, those involved are basing their words and actions on a predefined script. 



> If you so choose to ponder that mans sexual preference, I will leave you to your buisness.


 Again, it's your flawed logic that leads us to those conclusions about Silva and Coleman.



> When and if Kimbo has been shown the proper way to address the media, which obviously has taken place I'm not sure.
> 
> But your insert is a different from the jawjacking that I have been accustomed to. I am however glad that he is begining to display a bit of humility. Because trust me, he'll need it in the future.


 'Shown the proper way to address the media?' 'Beginning to display?' 

One of the interviews I quoted took place before his first mma fight. When do your illusory interviews take place, grade school? 








​


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

jasvll said:


> No, I'm saying that Liddell said *Ferguson needs to fight someone meaningful to prove himself, and Ferguson agreed to those terms.* He also said that anyone that has a problem with him should see him about it, not anyone else. That's a far cry from 'I will beat anyone mma can throw at me' and 'I'm the best,' wouldn't you agree?


Really???:confused02: So who is he fighting to prove himself?:dunno: James Thompson? Considering the outcome of JT's last two fights it doesn't look like Kimbo's stepping it up to me. :dunno: Yet he is main eventing, portraying himself as a legitimate fighter.


----------



## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

stitch1z said:


> Really???:confused02: So who is he fighting to prove himself?:dunno: James Thompson? Considering the outcome of JT's last two fights it doesn't look like Kimbo's stepping it up to me. :dunno: Yet he is main eventing, portraying himself as a legitimate fighter.


 Did I ever say Ferguson had fought top level fighters? Whether or not Liddell made a valid point, which he did, isn't relevant to whether or not Ferguson is going around claiming to be better than every other fighter. 

As for main event status, last time I checked, that wasn't up to the fighter, unless you're suggesting that the only way for Ferguson to satisfy your humility requirement is to refuse main event status until internet fans and/or The Iceman declare him legitimate.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

jasvll said:


> Conjure seems like the appropriate word :
> Yet by your own admission, you've failed to 'conjure' any evidence that supports this supposed 'fact.' Things that can be shown to be true are facts. Things that can't are matters of belief (see your next statement).
> 
> Perhaps that's because you're convinced your two cents is worth a fortune?
> ...


I am encouraged to know that you cracked open a dictionary to reply to my comment. That in itself is a useless gesture since I was aware of the meaning of the word that I used. The roll eyes smiley was also remenisent of grade school, which is not where my "illusory" interviews take place. But the gesture confirms your mind state.

I do recall a few bullheaded interviews which included Kimbos boasting. And as I stated, this is where I formed my beleifs on his mindstate in reguards to his fighting stature.

The Silva comment was made by you. Your fingers did the walking when questioning his preferences. So I am entertained by the notion that you would reflect that comment on me by calling it my "flawed logic" If it makes you feel better about the issue, I'll foot the bill on it and it will be our secret.

If my two cents were worth a fortune........(and you can quote me on the last sentence, that's why I left the space)
I'd bet that fortune on Kimbo's first loss in his next 2 fights after Thompson. Keep punching away at your keyboard, and you're liable to make a valid point in this discussion. Even a blind person will bump into something sometimes.:thumbsup:


----------



## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

Why are you getting mad at Kimbo for what he is paid? Why don't you get mad at Dana White for paying his fighters shitty? Morons.


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

jasvll said:


> Did I ever say Ferguson had fought top level fighters?


No, you said:


> I'm saying that Liddell said Ferguson needs to fight someone meaningful to prove himself, and Ferguson agreed to those terms


And since he agreed, I'm asking who is he fighting that's meaningful to prove himself? JT is coming off of 2 straight KO losses in the first round.

I don't have to argue that Kimbo is or is not claiming to be top-tier or a contender. I think his claim as being "LEGITIMATE" in MMA is a joke. Are you going to argue now that he doesn't claim to be a legitimate fighter? 

I know amateur competition that could mop the floor with the people he's fought. And Kimbo gets six figures a fight. Not only is he not a contender, or a top tier or even middle-tier opponent, I haven't seen him display anything (including a drive to fight tougher competition such as Rodgers, Ricco, etc.) that would place him near a legitimate fighter. The dude's a freak show.


----------



## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

J.P. said:


> I am encouraged to know that you cracked open a dictionary to reply to my comment. That in itself is a useless gesture since I was aware of the meaning of the word that I used.


 One would certainly hope so.



> The roll eyes smiley was also remenisent of grade school, which is not where my "illusory" interviews take place. But the gesture confirms your mind state.


 Sumthing abuot you're posts reminds me of grade school two but I can't put my finger on it. 



> I do recall a few bullheaded interviews which included Kimbos boasting. And as I stated, this is where I formed my beleifs on his mindstate in reguards to his fighting stature.


 Yet, despite the vast resources of the internet, you can't manage one reference to them beyond your own insistence.



> The Silva comment was made by you. Your fingers did the walking when questioning his preferences. So I am entertained by the notion that you would reflect that comment on me by calling it my "flawed logic" If it makes you feel better about the issue, I'll foot the bill on it and it will be our secret.


 I never denied making the statements about Silva and Coleman. Reread my previous post as often as it takes.



> If my two cents were worth a fortune........(and you can quote me on the last sentence, that's why I left the space)
> I'd bet that fortune on Kimbo's first loss in his next 2 fights after Thompson.


 I never said Ferguson would beat Thompson, much less his next two opponents, whoever they might be.



> Keep punching away at your keyboard, and you're liable to make a valid point in this discussion. Even a blind person will bump into something sometimes.:thumbsup:


 Some might say you proved that a few posts ago when making a point about me:


> And you are obviously an intelligent individual.


http://www.mmaforum.com/535477-post19.html


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

Ebc_Kyle said:


> Why are you getting mad at Kimbo for what he is paid? Why don't you get mad at Dana White for paying his fighters shitty? Morons.


Why? It's not DW's fault. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Kimbo's the highest paid fighter at EXC. I'm mad at that because he did nothing noteworthy to get there and now that he's there, he is hardly fighting better competition than he found on the street.

He's making a buck off of the popularity of a sport that real athletes worked very hard to bring excitement and class too IMO.


----------



## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

stitch1z said:


> No, you said:
> 
> 
> And since he agreed, I'm asking who is he fighting that's meaningful to prove himself? JT is coming off of 2 straight KO losses in the first round.


 Ferguson doesn't matchmake anymore than Liddell does.



> I don't have to argue that Kimbo is or is not claiming to be top-tier or a contender. I think his claim as being "LEGITIMATE" in MMA is a joke. Are you going to argue now that he doesn't claim to be a legitimate fighter?


 Define 'legitimate MMA fighter.'



> I know amateur competition that could mop the floor with the people he's fought.


 Ferguson mopped the floor with them, too, and are you arguing that no amateur level fighters are legitimate MMA fighters?



> And Kimbo gets six figures a fight. Not only is he not a contender, or a top tier or even middle-tier opponent, I haven't seen him display anything (including a drive to fight tougher competition such as Rodgers, Ricco, etc.) that would place him near a legitimate fighter. The dude's a freak show.


 How is that relevant, other than that it explains why some people hate him so much?


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

jasvll said:


> One would certainly hope so.
> 
> Sumthing abuot you're posts reminds me of grade school two but I can't put my finger on it.
> 
> ...


Your responses are vacant. You merley quote.


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

jasvll said:


> Ferguson doesn't matchmake anymore than Liddell does.


Then why is he challenging Liddell to a fight on the internet.



> Define 'legitimate MMA fighter.'


One who intends to better and test themselves by fighting tough competition.



> Ferguson mopped the floor with them, too, and are you arguing that no amateur level fighters are legitimate MMA fighters?


I'm arguing that he gets paid six figures a fight to do something that amateur level fighters can do. Isn't he supposed to be a professional?



> How is that relevant, other than that it explains why some people hate him so much?


Because you claimed that Kimbo agreed to fight 'meaningful' competition. It's right there in the same organization that he is. Yet, he's still fighting matches tailor-made for him.:dunno:


----------



## ralphbenjamin (Feb 17, 2008)

jasvll said:


> Did I ever say Ferguson had fought top level fighters? Whether or not Liddell made a valid point, which he did, isn't relevant to whether or not Ferguson is going around claiming to be better than every other fighter.
> 
> As for main event status, *last time I checked, that wasn't up to the fighter, unless you're suggesting that the only way for Ferguson to satisfy your humility requirement is to refuse main event status until internet fans and/or The Iceman declare him legitimate*.



AMEN. WHAT I'VE BEEN THINKING THIS WHOLE TIME


----------



## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

stitch1z said:


> Then why is he challenging Liddell to a fight on the internet.


 I thought you said that he would have never "put the challenge out there if there was any chance of this match-up becoming a reality." Doesn't that just prove my point that Ferguson doesn't have the power to matchmake? 

That being said Gary Shaw openly admits to protecting his contracted fighters. That does bother me, but to be fair to Ferguson, White said the UFC wasn't interested in him. EliteXC is the next highest level in terms of North American mma.



> One who intends to better and test themselves by fighting tough competition.


 Seeking out Bas Rutten as a trainer and earning his endless praise suggests Ferguson has that intention. Besides, in mma terms, Mercer < Cantrell < Abbott <= Thompson. 




> I'm arguing that he gets paid six figures a fight to do something that amateur level fighters can do. Isn't he supposed to be a professional?


 The license determines whether or not a fighter is a professional, not his paycheck. And again, the discussion wasn't about whether or not Ferguson's market value was worth more than his in ring credibility. I have no plans to argue that point.



> Because you claimed that Kimbo agreed to fight 'meaningful' competition. It's right there in the same organization that he is. Yet, he's still fighting matches tailor-made for him.:dunno:


 The identity of the tailor is the flaw in your argument. 



> “I like Brock, but it just shows that Dana doesn’t know what he’s doing. Every time he signs someone, they get beat right away. I guess if you want to get beat right away, you should go to the UFC. It’s like I said all along, Dana didn’t invent mixed martial arts, he doesn’t own the best fighters in the world and he doesn’t have the best fights in the world. He should come down and look at our show, although I’m sure he watches them free on Showtime. I feel badly because Brock could’ve been a star and he ruined him right off of the bat. It was a bad match-up.”


http://mmamania.com/2008/02/12/gary-shaw-dana-white-ruined-brock-lesnar-right-off-the-bat/


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

jasvll said:


> I thought you said that he would have never "put the challenge out there if there was any chance of this match-up becoming a reality." Doesn't that just prove my point that Ferguson doesn't have the power to matchmake?


It kind of proves the point I was trying to make earlier that Kimbo has as much to do with his false hype as anyone associated with him



> That being said Gary Shaw openly admits to protecting his contracted fighters. That does bother me, but to be fair to Ferguson, White said the UFC wasn't interested in him. EliteXC is the next highest level in terms of North American mma.


This does suck ass, but I don't believe that Ferg is powerless to do ANYTHING about it.



> Seeking out Bas Rutten as a trainer and earning his endless praise suggests Ferguson has that intention. Besides, in mma terms, Mercer < Cantrell < Abbott <= Thompson.


An Amateur fighter would be lucky to have that kind of competition to pad their carreer before they hit the big leagues. Going into all of these fights, it would be appaulling if Kimbo lost. His skillset is made to dismantle any of the above, hence it doesn't further his MMA expertise in the cage. He has a good trainer, but his competition is way weak. JT could have easily been a fair debut, considering Kimbo's "fighting background"



> The license determines whether or not a fighter is a professional, not his paycheck. And again, the discussion wasn't about whether or not Ferguson's market value was worth more than his in ring credibility. I have no plans to argue that point.


I thought the argument I was making is that Kimbo is not a legitimate MMA fighter. I say getting paid six figures for fighting less than average AMATEUR-level competition on a national market with that kind of payscale lacks legitimacy as a fighter and is closer to an entertainer (such as a circus act, or freak show)



> The identity of the tailor is the flaw in your argument.


Once again, I don't see Kimbo stepping forward demanding to fight the already present competition in the EXC HW division. 

Here's another quote for you:


> "There's so many other athletes out there that have better skill," Rodriguez said. "There are other top contenders right now. Kimbo Slice to me is just a clown... He's a dancing monkey." - Ricco Rodriguez


http://mmajunkie.com/news/3599/ricco-rodriguez-uninterested-in-fight-with-tomato-can-kimbo-slice.mma

I didn't see any videos of Kimbo calling Ricco out and they're in the same organization... :dunno:


----------



## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

stitch1z said:


> It kind of proves the point I was trying to make earlier that Kimbo has as much to do with his false hype as anyone associated with him


 If Ferguson had initiated the 'feud' with Liddell, I'd be more inclined to agree with you.



> This does suck ass, but I don't believe that Ferg is powerless to do ANYTHING about it.


 Right, but your beliefs aren't based in fact, they're based on your preconceived notions about Ferguson. It's hard to form a rational argument for or against beliefs.



> An Amateur fighter would be lucky to have that kind of competition to pad their carreer before they hit the big leagues. Going into all of these fights, it would be appaulling if Kimbo lost.
> His skillset is made to dismantle any of the above, hence it doesn't further his MMA expertise in the cage. He has a good trainer, but his competition is way weak. JT could have easily been a fair debut, considering Kimbo's "fighting background"


 How does this address what his intentions in the sport are?



> I thought the argument I was making is that Kimbo is not a legitimate MMA fighter. I say getting paid six figures for fighting less than average AMATEUR-level competition on a national market with that kind of payscale lacks legitimacy as a fighter and is closer to an entertainer (such as a circus act, or freak show)


 So, if he was getting paid $10,000 a fight and facing the same competition, would that somehow increase his legitimacy as a fighter? It seems like you're saying legitimacy is a function of salary. Lesnar, Silva, Franklin, and others have shown that fighting skill and your marketability aren't directly proportionate. It makes no sense to single out Ferguson for something that's true in all arts (see Britney Spears/Paul Walker).



> Once again, I don't see Kimbo stepping forward demanding to fight the already present competition in the EXC HW division.


 I've seen no accounts of him ducking that competition, either. Besides, if he did go around demanding matchups, wouldn't that just feed your claims about his arrogance?



> Here's another quote for you:
> 
> http://mmajunkie.com/news/3599/ricco-rodriguez-uninterested-in-fight-with-tomato-can-kimbo-slice.mma
> 
> I didn't see any videos of Kimbo calling Ricco out and they're in the same organization... :dunno:


 Are you arguing that the current version of Ricco Rodriguez is a step up in competition? :thumb02:

Who knows why Ferguson didn't respond to that? It could be that he was afraid he would lose; it could be that he didn't hear about it. And for all we know, it could be his next match up. If it's the first, though, it kind of disproves you and the other guy's claims that Ferguson runs around talking trash about how great he is.


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

jasvll said:


> If Ferguson had initiated the 'feud' with Liddell, I'd be more inclined to agree with you.
> 
> Right, but your beliefs aren't based in fact, they're based on your preconceived notions about Ferguson. It's hard to form a rational argument for or against beliefs.
> 
> ...


Dude, you are way off of what I am arguing. I'm saying he will talk trash if there is no way of him having to fight a legit fighter (i.e. Liddell). He definitely heard about the Ricco debacle, because the statements were made before the Tank/Kimbo fight about his distress that Kimbo was main eventing. It would be hard to argue that he never heard that.

And here it is, his very next bout and he is not taking on Rodriguez, but the guy that lost by KO on that very same card they all shared a couple months ago.

It makes my point, that if there is someone legit and available to actually fight Kimbo talking trash, Kimbo doesn't respond with a "warning" (Buentello has trash talked Kimbo too, by the way). And yes Ricco, in his weak ass diminished state would destroy Kimbo.

So here is my thoughts:

Kimbo is not a legit fighter, he is a legit entertainer, much like Britney Spears, much like a freak show. This is my opinion and nothing you have argued has pointed me in any other direction. :thumb02:


----------



## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

stitch1z said:


> Dude, you are way off of what I am arguing. I'm saying he will talk trash if there is no way of him having to fight a legit fighter (i.e. Liddell). He definitely heard about the Ricco debacle, because the statements were made before the Tank/Kimbo fight about his distress that Kimbo was main eventing. It would be hard to argue that he never heard that.


 I get it now. If someone starts something and he responds, he's an arrogant bastard. If someone starts something and he ignores them, he's a coward. Makes perfect sense. :confused02:



> And here it is, his very next bout and he is not taking on Rodriguez, but the guy that lost by KO on that very same card they all shared a couple months ago.


 And again, Ferguson isn't making the matches.
Besides, it's already been established that Shaw isn't going to match Ferguson up with anyone he thinks will beat him, yet. 



> It makes my point, that if there is someone legit and available to actually fight Kimbo talking trash, Kimbo doesn't respond with a "warning" (Buentello has trash talked Kimbo too, by the way). And yes Ricco, in his weak ass diminished state would destroy Kimbo.


 If you watch the Liddell video, you'll see that Ferguson says that he still 'has nothing but love' for other MMA fighters but that he's grown 'tired of the trash talk,' and says that that's why he's speaking out now. He also extends his invitation to every MMA fighter that has a problem, not just Liddell. In other words, he's been intentionally keeping his mouth shut about the trash talking coming from some other fighters, which explains why trash talking from 4 months earlier didn't get a response.



> Kimbo is not a legit fighter, he is a legit entertainer, much like Britney Spears, much like a freak show. This is my opinion and nothing you have argued has pointed me in any other direction. :thumb02:


 Not trying to change your mind, just pointing out where opinion reaches beyond the available facts.


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

jasvll said:


> I get it now. If someone starts something and he responds, he's an arrogant bastard. If someone starts something and he ignores them, he's a coward. Makes perfect sense. :confused02:
> 
> And again, Ferguson isn't making the matches.
> Besides, it's already been established that Shaw isn't going to match Ferguson up with anyone he thinks will beat him, yet.
> ...


Well if opinions had to do only with facts, they wouldn't be opinions, now would they?:dunno: My opinions are based on my opinions.

I never said Kimbo was an arrogant bastard, I think that he's an entertainer. He's a sideshow. And everything you are arguing is only reinforcing that point IMO. 

He'll call out the out-of-reach, top of the heap fighter from another org, but keeps his mouth shut when Buentello and Ricco talk trash. That's hard to make sense of from a professional fighter's perspective. If he wants to shut his critics up, there are plenty of people to fight in his org.

You've argued that he gets paid more by a measure of his marketability, not necessarilly his fighting talent... Sounds more like an entertainer than a legit fighter to me. :dunno:

Chuck is marketable because of his talent, not solely because of his winning personality and ability to knock down cans.

Once again, Kimbo gets paid because he's a good entertainer, a freak show.


----------



## jasvll (Mar 28, 2007)

stitch1z said:


> Well if opinions had to do only with facts, they wouldn't be opinions, now would they?:dunno: My opinions are based on my opinions.


 Sounds about right, for you and your friend, that is. 



> I never said Kimbo was an arrogant bastard, I think that he's an entertainer. He's a sideshow. And everything you are arguing is only reinforcing that point IMO.


 Nonsense.



> He'll call out the out-of-reach, top of the heap fighter from another org, but keeps his mouth shut when Buentello and Ricco talk trash. That's hard to make sense of from a professional fighter's perspective. If he wants to shut his critics up, there are plenty of people to fight in his org.


 And you've yet to show an example of him ducking any of them, and you've ignored the fact that the response to Liddell is the first example of Ferguson saying anything back to those that have questioned his legitimacy, the fact that Rodriguez's comments came 4 months earlier, and the fact that Ferguson says he's been holding his tongue up until Liddell's comments. You're ignoring evidence that conflicts with your opinion, which is why I feel the need to point out where your opinion and the facts diverge.



> You've argued that he gets paid more by a measure of his marketability, not necessarilly his fighting talent... Sounds more like an entertainer than a legit fighter to me. :dunno:


 No, I've argued that all MMA fighters get paid according to that measure, making it hypocritical to fault Ferguson alone for it.



> Chuck is marketable because of his talent, not solely because of his winning personality and ability to knock down cans.


 His career certainly benefited from facing a string of grapplers, though, didn't it? 

Besides, you're twisting what I actually said, which is that every fighter, not just Ferguson, is paid based on their marketability. Machida is another good example. He's undefeated and one of the most talented fighters in his division, but his style isn't always exciting (to the general audience), and he doesn't speak the language (at least not up until now) of the market he works in. His pay reflects that. Compare that to Tito Ortiz, who hasn't had a meaningful win since he's returned to the UFC. Does his pay reflect his current skill or his mouth?



> Once again, Kimbo gets paid because he's a good entertainer, a freak show.


 He certainly gets paid out of scale due to his reputation and ability to entertain, but it's not fair to completely disregard the skill he's shown or the work ethic he's reputed to have, simply because you think he's overpaid and underchallenged. He's clearly a legitimate fighter, even according to your narrow, discussion specific definition.

To get back to why I joined this thread, Ferguson simply hasn't shown the arrogance some here have claimed he has. Anger over how he's been able to sidestep the process other fighters have had to go through or how he makes the sport look doesn't justify the nonsense people are coming up with in order to bring Ferguson down. Lesnar and the TUF group have both seen this type of behavior. They've survived it, and I imagine Ferguson will, too.


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

jasvll said:


> Sounds about right, for you and your friend, that is.


Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof
Looks like me and my friend understand the definition of opinion.



> And you've yet to show an example of him ducking any of them, and you've ignored the fact that the response to Liddell is the first example of Ferguson saying anything back to those that have questioned his legitimacy, the fact that Rodriguez's comments came 4 months earlier, and the fact that Ferguson says he's been holding his tongue up until Liddell's comments. You're ignoring evidence that conflicts with your opinion, which is why I feel the need to point out where your opinion and the facts diverge.


Just because Ferg claims that he hasn't addressed the reachable opponents that have talked trash because he was holding his tongue or being "nice" doesn't make it a fact. It's actually kind of suspect that he has only had enough when the first big name that has no chance of fighting in EXC (which also excludes Tito), that he finally says something... And conveniently doesn't address any of the reachables in the process.



> No, I've argued that all MMA fighters get paid according to that measure, making it hypocritical to fault Ferguson alone for it.


Ferguson is alone for it. Who is more of an entertainer vs. a fighter in the proffession?? Or rather who is more successful at being an entertainer vs. a fighter? And who else in the sport is exploiting that aspect of it and facing crappier competition than Kimbo. Who in today's MMA can you compare Kimbo's carreer to???:dunno:



> Besides, you're twisting what I actually said, which is that every fighter, not just Ferguson, is paid based on their marketability. Machida is another good example. He's undefeated and one of the most talented fighters in his division, but his style isn't always exciting (to the general audience), and he doesn't speak the language (at least not up until now) of the market he works in. His pay reflects that. Compare that to Tito Ortiz, who hasn't had a meaningful win since he's returned to the UFC. Does his pay reflect his current skill or his mouth?


I aggree with everything here. None of these examples are close to Kimbo's situation. Kimbo's never had a meaningful win. Period.



> He certainly gets paid out of scale due to his reputation and ability to entertain, but *it's not fair to completely disregard the skill he's shown *or the work ethic he's reputed to have, simply because you think he's overpaid and underchallenged. He's clearly a legitimate fighter, even according to your narrow, discussion specific definition.


Lol! He's shown no more skill than an amateur fighter.
And he may be reputed to have a great work ethic, but we won't know until he fights somebody worth their weight in the division. Until then, I haven't seen any of this great skill people speak of. Strong wins over EXTREMELY weak opponents.



> To get back to why I joined this thread, Ferguson simply hasn't shown the arrogance some here have claimed he has. Anger over how he's been able to sidestep the process other fighters have had to go through or how he makes the sport look doesn't justify the nonsense people are coming up with in order to bring Ferguson down. Lesnar and the TUF group have both seen this type of behavior. They've survived it, and I imagine Ferguson will, too.


Kimbo seemed arrogant in that Chuck video and before his fight with Tank to me. :dunno: 

Lesnar and the TUF group have already fought much tougher competition than Kimbo has. And they have legitimate backgrounds in fight SPORTS (for the most part). There's no comparison.


----------



## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

I actually think Tank is severely underrated, mostly because he should have retired long ago, before his training regimen, or lack thereof, caught up with him.
But when you look at the first half of his career, he did accomplish quite a bit in his day...

• He smashed Paul Varelans, a UFC tournament finalist, in about 12 minutes less than the legendary Marco Ruas did.

• He went nearly 18 minutes with Oleg and gave us the first great fight in UFC. As far as cardio goes, he was actually in better condition than Oleg after the fight.

• He destroyed Steve Jennum, who you'll recall was a UFC tournament champion.

• He went the distance with Dan Severn, when Dan was _the_ dominant fighter in UFC behind Royce Gracie.

• Knocked out Cabbage quicker than either Sylvia or Arlovski. That's saying something.

His striking and wrestling were fairly solid for his day. His crude GnP was pretty effective, as well.
Then, sure, guys came along who were better, and like a lot of guys, he fell behind.
Tank never had the conditioning or the work ethic to match his strength and punching power, but he wasn't the talentless hack he gets made out to be.


----------



## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

stitch1z said:


> Why? It's not DW's fault.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Kimbo's the highest paid fighter at EXC. I'm mad at that because he did nothing noteworthy to get there and now that he's there, he is hardly fighting better competition than he found on the street.
> 
> He's making a buck off of the popularity of a sport that real athletes worked very hard to bring excitement and class too IMO.


 He doesn't write his own checks, and he doesn't pick his fights, he fights the people he is given, so why complain about Kimbo? Why don't you complain about the management of EliteXC?


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

raymardo said:


> stitch1z, you should concede defeat. There's no shame in losing a debate, where the point is to intelligently utilize facts to support your opinions. In this thread, you've made a lot of assertions and have opinions based on emotion and likes and dislikes.
> 
> Your dislike for Kimbo is so glaring that is prohibits you from admitting when facts are presented to refute your statements.
> 
> ...


I'm not disagreeing to be difficult, it's just my belief: 

I don't believe that anyone Kimbo has fought thus far would help ANYONE develop as a fighter ( A 46-yr-old ex boxer, a 10-10 fighter that's gone down in the first 30 seconds on several occasions, and an aged Tank Aboot that has lost 7 of his 8 bouts in this decade)
 I never argued that Kimbo wasn't where he is because of his marketability, in fact, I think that's the absolute only reason he's there. As an entertainer.
Liddell hardly trash-talked Kimbo. However, Ricco called Kimbo a "Dancing Monkey" and "Tomato Can" and Buentello accused him of fighting people he already knocked out. Yet, Kimbo had nothing to say about that. Liddell didn't talk trash, he stated facts... Then Kimbo issues a "warning":dunno:
 I realize he's not a matchmaker. So why is he calling out Liddell?:confused02:

It's just my opinion. The guy has shown no skill to speak of (other than some amateur boxing skill and a sloppy guillotine). He looks scary and he fights people that make him look even scarier. But as a fighter, I see no reason to show him any respect.

Once again, I have not accused Kimbo of being arrogant!
I've accused him of being ignorant.:thumb02:


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

Ebc_Kyle said:


> He doesn't write his own checks, and he doesn't pick his fights, he fights the people he is given, so why complain about Kimbo? Why don't you complain about the management of EliteXC?


Because it didn't come up, but obviously I have some problem with EXC's management... And that problem is Kimbo.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

raymardo said:


> stitch1z, you should concede defeat. There's no shame in losing a debate, where the point is to intelligently utilize facts to support your opinions. In this thread, you've made a lot of assertions and have opinions based on emotion and likes and dislikes.
> 
> Your dislike for Kimbo is so glaring that is prohibits you from admitting when facts are presented to refute your statements.
> 
> ...


Who's to say "stitch1z" should concede anything? Let him discuss what he chooses to. Hence the prase "forum". If you want to give advice, talk to yourself in the mirror.


----------



## Pr0d1gy (Sep 25, 2006)

vandalian said:


> I actually think Tank is severely underrated, mostly because he should hang retired long ago, before his training regimen, or lack thereof, caught up with him.
> But when you look at the first half of his career, he did accomplish quite a bit in his day...
> 
> • He smashed Paul Varelans, a UFC tournament finalist, in about 12 minutes less than the legendary Marco Ruas did.
> ...



Great post and the truth is we will not know who was better in their prime, mainly because Kimbo hasn't had his prime yet. Kimbo, while not young, is just getting into MMA and fighting 2nd tier guys. Tank fought the best back when the best was far better than the 2nd tier. 

This discussion is really about 5-10 years from being positively determined. Let's just sit back and see if Kimbo actually keeps beating guys, because as of now I haven't seen anyone take his punches in an MMA ring and keep going. That's a bit shocking after watching Gannon eat his punches for what seemed like an eternity.


----------



## ralphbenjamin (Feb 17, 2008)

raymardo said:


> stitch1z, you should concede defeat. There's no shame in losing a debate, where the point is to intelligently utilize facts to support your opinions. In this thread, you've made a lot of assertions and have opinions based on emotion and likes and dislikes.
> 
> Your dislike for Kimbo is so glaring that is prohibits you from admitting when facts are presented to refute your statements.
> 
> ...


must completely agree with you.. awesome read, read all of them.. but i agree, jasvll appears to have won, but still a job well done stitch..

i cannot wait til may 31st. i want to see this fight go to the ground and hopefully by some miracle, kimbo bust out some master wrestling skills hahah, dunno how.. but everyone can dream eh?


----------



## RushFan (Aug 25, 2007)

* Note to self: *Never get in an argument with Jasvll*
All I will say is that Kimbo's image needs a lot of work and financially rewarding someone due to their infamous bare knuckle boxing ( lets face it, it aint streetfighting. They dont even allow knees ) career could set a dangerous precedent. 
:thumbsup:


----------



## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/48IhDSk77eFJx3kmv

Duarte was on a tear, undefeated and dismissed Abbott as unskilled, said he had he had no respect for him. Turned out Tank had more skill than he thought.


----------



## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

stitch1z said:


> Because it didn't come up, but obviously I have some problem with EXC's management... And that problem is Kimbo.


 What? Are you upset because millions of people know Kimbo? And now that he's in MMA, they are watching MMA, too? Are you mad because Kimbo is just trying to make money fighting people? Or are you mad because Kimbo is one of the biggest names in MMA next to the UFC? You might not think so, but look, almost everyone on this forum knows who Kimbo is, and I betcha a lot of people who don't follow MMA know who the hell Kimbo is. Kimbo fought people in the street, so what? Wasn't Chuck involved in a brawl in a bar where he was, quote; "Had his back against the wall just knocking guys out right and left." ? I don't understand why you're angry at Kimbo for trying to make a living with what he thinks he knows best. Jesus Christ, the guy has 2 MMA fights under his belt (I think the Mercer one didn't count) and you people are already undermining him.


----------



## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

Ebc_Kyle said:


> What? Are you upset because millions of people know Kimbo? And now that he's in MMA, they are watching MMA, too? Are you mad because Kimbo is just trying to make money fighting people? Or are you mad because Kimbo is one of the biggest names in MMA next to the UFC? You might not think so, but look, almost everyone on this forum knows who Kimbo is, and I betcha a lot of people who don't follow MMA know who the hell Kimbo is. Kimbo fought people in the street, so what? Wasn't Chuck involved in a brawl in a bar where he was, quote; "Had his back against the wall just knocking guys out right and left." ? I don't understand why you're angry at Kimbo for trying to make a living with what he thinks he knows best. Jesus Christ, the guy has 2 MMA fights under his belt (I think the Mercer one didn't count) and you people are already undermining him.


Bro, it's just my opinion.:dunno: I don't think he's shown any skill to speak of other than a sloppy guillotine, some mediocre boxing, and heavy hands. I also think his attitude, personna, and background are bad for MMA. And I think he's had easier competition than most amateur fighters have to start out with. 
Think what you want, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.:dunno: But this is what I believe.:thumb02:


----------

