# TUF got murdered tonight...



## mathruD (Aug 16, 2009)

by Strikeforce. The Strikeforce card was amazing, while the tuf finale was ridiculously boring.

SPOILER





















and will someone please tell Leonard Garcia to find a new job. Dude has no business fighting. All he does is throw wild haymakers, and there is no way he won that fight.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

I think the sensible thing to do is compare SF PPVs with UFC PPVs.

Good for you, SF... you 'murdered TUF'. Have a cookie.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

The Ultimate Finale was something....but it sure as heck wasn't boring


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I think the sensible thing to do is compare SF PPVs with UFC PPVs.
> 
> Good for you, SF... you 'murdered TUF'. Have a cookie.


LOL!!!

So true!!



mathruD said:


> by Strikeforce. The Strikeforce card was amazing, while the tuf finale was ridiculously boring.


If you're a fan of KO's maybe.

But if you like watching technical fights, BJJ and wrestling basics, transitions and stuff like this - TUF would have been the smarter choice.

SF basically putt on a lot of fights where the 2 fighters weren't evenly matched. 
+ a lot of fighters taking the fights on short notice

What SF putt togheter tonight was nice, but KO's like that i can watch at my local pub all day long.
As an MMA fan, i really enjoyed TUF tonight (morning here)

PS: i've watched SF also.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

John8204 said:


> The Ultimate Finale was something....but it sure as heck wasn't boring


This.


Also, them calling the guy Benji is fighting "OSP" constantly is REALLY annoying.


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

Everyone's been saying all week how TUF was going to destroy Strikeforce but aside from the Pham/Garcia robbery, TUF wasn't that good. 

Strikeforce was just a gigantic highlight reel of an event and was a great watch. TUF......not so much. That being said, it was one of UFC's small events so it wasn't that big of a deal.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> This.
> 
> 
> Also, them calling the guy Benji is fighting *"OSP"* constantly is REALLY annoying.


I swear, at one point, i heard one of the commentators (Miletich was it?!?!) call him Ovince *"St. Pierre"*

LMAO!


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

As I have already posted a couple times tonight. If all you want to see is one sided lower end fights then SF will keep you thoroughly entertained. 

If you like watching the little technical aspects of fighting, close matchups and a hell of a lot more decent events then the UFC is heads and shoulders above SF.

Hendo will likely soon be the LHW and possibly even future MW SF champion. And will have done so after losing to a UFC WW fighter who has absolutely horrible standup...

SF has only a handful of decent fighters and almost half of them fought tonight... And we are comparing this to a low end free UFC production... Remind me about this next week when we get to see GSP vs Koscheck. 

Don't worry though you will get to see another SF event at the end of January... While I will enjoy seeing 3 UFC events before then and 1 just shortly after.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

AlphaDawg said:


> Everyone's been saying all week how TUF was going to destroy Strikeforce but aside from the Pham/Garcia robbery, TUF wasn't that good.
> 
> Strikeforce was just a gigantic highlight reel of an event and was a great watch. TUF......not so much. That being said, it was one of UFC's small events so it wasn't that big of a deal.


You're right. SF was an excellent showing of KOs. 

TUF was an excellent display of MMA. Some of us are still fans.


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

Canadian Psycho said:


> You're right. SF was an excellent showing of KOs.
> 
> TUF was an excellent display of MMA. Some of us are still fans.


......Cool? So am I. Not sure what you're getting at here.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

TUF will do fine. You know why? Because it was on cable. And Strikeforce was on Showtime. No contest.

As far as the quality of the card goes, I think both events gave us a pretty good representation of what the organizations are about.

Strikeforce has done a pretty good job of putting on fights that are exciting for the casual fan, and that has helped to keep them relevant. They have great knockouts and exciting brawls.

The UFC has technical fights. They've made a point of trying to legitimize themselves by making sure they have the best fighters in the world, and that those fighters are putting on great fights that are exciting. By the way, they did that tonight.

The fights on the UFC card were not boring. They were exciting fights, but they weren't going to drag in the casual fan the way Griffin vs. Bonnar I did, but that's the way it goes.

I loved the UFC card and, while I found the Strikeforce card fun to watch, it could've been Sengoku, World Victory Road, M-1 or Shark Fights. And that's why the UFC will continue to kick the crap out of Strikeforce.

I wish Strikeforce were competitive. I wish that they brought great competition to the UFC. But at this point that doesn't seem likely to happen. That's the reality of the situation.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

limba said:


> I swear, at one point, i heard one of the commentators (Miletich was it?!?!) call him Ovince *"St. Pierre"*
> 
> LMAO!


330 of the third, I just heard him say it lol!


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

AlphaDawg said:


> ......Cool? So am I. Not sure what you're getting at here.


There was MMA in the SF event? Where was the wrestling aspect? BJJ? Standup defense?

They had some good brawls tonight... Unfortunately that seems to be what some people appreciate about MMA. Legitimized bar fights... 

TUF tonight was full of back and forth wars. It had technical strikers vs brawlers, strikers vs grapplers and top wrestlers battling for control.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Strikeforce was okay, lots of KO's but for an event to be good it needs to be longer than 12 minutes(in the four fights people cared about). They should have had some PC fights for it to be a great event.


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

420atalon said:


> There was MMA in the SF event? Where was the wrestling aspect? BJJ? Standup defense?
> 
> They had some good brawls tonight... Unfortunately that seems to be what some people appreciate about MMA. Legitimized bar fights...
> 
> TUF tonight was full of back and forth wars. It had technical strikers vs brawlers, strikers vs grapplers and top wrestlers battling for control.


I know SF was mainly KOs, I even said it was a highlight reel of an event.

I was responding to the "Some of us are still fans" comment.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

The problem with SF is that majority of the times the fights are mismatched in terms of the caliber of fighters. It's always usually pretty much one sided. 

So yes the UFC has far more technical matches.

I enjoyed the Kendall Grove vs Maia fight along with Bonnar and Igor. Nam vs Garcia was FOTN, but I think Brookins and Johnson was as well. 

SF is entertaining no doubt about it, but the commentating is "eh..." and there's no Arianny so that's a big downer for me....lolz. All in all for the mainstream audience they would find the SF results entertaining tonight...I mean who wouldn't. Three vicious KOs.

As someone said this is a lowered tiered card that was free. Lets compare the numbers next week. Believe 23,000 tickets have already been sold in Montreal which should probably mean a PPV of 500,000 to a million if not more.

Tonight was a good night for MMA. The fans win. We got to enjoy tons of fights.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

AlphaDawg said:


> I know SF was mainly KOs, I even said it was a highlight reel of an event.
> 
> I was responding to the "Some of us are still fans" comment.


You said TUF wasn't that good but Strikeforce was a highlight reel.

TUF was MMA, SF wasn't. His comment seems reasonable as it seems you are more a fan of one sided stand up fights then you are of MMA since you don't seem to have appreciated the technical aspects apparent in almost every TUF fight tonight.

TUF tonight was great for a lower tier group of fighters. The fact we are even comparing it to one of SF's better cards tells you something right there...


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

420atalon said:


> You said TUF wasn't that good but Strikeforce was a highlight reel.
> 
> TUF was MMA, SF wasn't. His comment seems reasonable as it seems you are more a fan of one sided stand up fights then you are of MMA since you don't seem to have appreciated the technical aspects apparent in almost every TUF fight tonight.
> 
> TUF tonight was great for a lower tier group of fighters. The fact we are even comparing it to one of SF's better cards tells you something right there...


I wasn't aware Strikeforce wasn't MMA. Thanks bro.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

The Silva fight was fantastic and a great display of MMA, but of-course it was the only one of the four real fights on the card that made it out of the first.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

AlphaDawg said:


> I wasn't aware Strikeforce wasn't MMA. Thanks bro.
> 
> I swear, the comments I read on this forum get dumber and dumber everyday.


Strikeforce is like prehistoric MMA... Like the old UFC events...

It is still MMA and it is more exciting to some because of lopsided fights made up of 1 dimensional fighters.

The UFC could easily put on events like SF did tonight and they would have just as nice of finishes. For example just rearrange UFC 124 to the following main card

GSP vs Howard
Koscheck vs Almeida
Alves vs Grant
Struve vs McCorkle
Stevenson vs Miller

I guarantee you these fights would be more exciting and have more finishes... But it would be retarded as it doesn't match the best guys up against top opponents.


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## elardo (Jul 8, 2007)

My friend and I recorded Strikeforce while watching TUF live. I jokingly said that they were switching roles tonight, since UFC was having a lot of technical issues, the bad decision (not UFC's fault), and some snoozer fights. But it actually kind of happened that way. Nam/Garcia and Brookins/Johnson were great fights. The rest was meh. SF was in knockout town tonight, with fights that will impact the SF divisions. UFC is the better org, but for once SF actually stole the show. The TUF finale could have used a much better co-main imo.


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## dudeabides (Sep 30, 2008)

I found a way to watch both with one monitor on top of the other, it was pretty cool but hard to look away from the one with Strikeforce during those last 4 fights. And I was at work! Heh, suckers.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Finished watching SF. TUF was far superior IMO. Every one of those fights was mismatched as hell. Bigfoot vs a Light Heavy (And damn near getting beat at that), Scott "I eat punches for breakfast" Smith vs Paul "My breakfast will ******* kill you if you try to eat it" Daley and Dan Henderson (top 5 MW in the world) vs Babalu, who's not top 10 anything.


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

I enjoyed TUF allot tonight, it had a little of everything 

some people like rockem sockem robots some people like chess


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

That what you get when you have even match-ups. 

It's kind of like watching huge mismatches in college football vs the NFL. In college football, a team might light some other team up, as expected, and some people enjoy that. In the NFL there's parity, more of an any given Sunday aspect.

If you want to watch 1st round knock outs and UFC rejects fighting Strikeforce fighters, you can do that. 

If you want to see guys get matched up based on perceived level of equal talent, then UFC - less flash, bam pow finishes, but higher level talent and superior athletes.


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## 614mike (Oct 15, 2006)

I watched SF after TUF and it was nice to tivo forward and watch the whole thing in 15 minutes. The less time listening to mauro, shamrock and pat the better. Mauro kills me. I was a huge Babalu fan a ways back but man, he just looks worse and worse.


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## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

It's a good night of fights, when you watch them both, but I'd give the edge to TUF. The 3 fights I waited the most weren't even as long as Phan/Garcia, so yeah.. Not that I don't like KOs, but if we have to compare TUF and SF..


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

TraMaI said:


> This.
> 
> 
> Also, them calling the guy Benji is fighting "OSP" constantly is REALLY annoying.


It's a common abbreviation system for many French Canadians. There's a proffessional skater that's been around before GSP and he goes by PLG Pierre Luc Gagnon. 

That being said I didn't see the fight and they probably were trying to make a comparison lol.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

AlphaDawg said:


> I wasn't aware Strikeforce wasn't MMA. Thanks bro.
> 
> I swear, the comments I read on this forum get dumber and dumber everyday.


Or, you're simply reading it as you'd like to read it. You put down TUF, which was an excellent display of wrestling, grappling, submission and clinch work, slams, and so forth. You know, mixed martial arts. Whereas you touted the ten second KOs of SF. You know, boxing. Which says to me that you can't possibly be a fan of mixed martial arts, because mixed martial arts incorporates several variables, and not just the one (which happens to be the most flashy and appeals to the lowest common denominator). Though we each have a little 'lowest common denominator' in all of us, in that we all love a great KO, if you couldn't appreciate TUF for what it was, then you don't appreciate mixed martial arts.


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## FrodoFraggins (Oct 25, 2009)

I thought TUF was pretty boring myself, too much leg humping for my taste. 

I watched the SF event later, and although I'm not impressed by the MMA skills of most of the fighters in the SF event it was much more exciting to watch.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm really not sure what the confusion is about. Last night SF show was more exciting than the UFC show by any metrics used to judge MMA. 

Overall UFC is the better ORG and consistently puts on good to excellent shows, while SF puts on average to decent shows every few months. 

So overall there is no comparison between the two but to say that last nights SF event wasnt more exciting is just being in denial.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

vilify said:


> I'm really not sure what the confusion is about. Last night SF show was more exciting than the UFC show by any metrics used to judge MMA.
> 
> Overall UFC is the better ORG and consistently puts on good to excellent shows, while SF puts on average to decent shows every few months.
> 
> So overall there is no comparison between the two but to say that last nights SF event wasnt more exciting is just being in denial.


I take no issue with that. It's the 'TUF was boring' allegations I disagree with. 

SF was indeed exciting. But TUF was certainly entertaining as well. Both for very different reasons.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

2 cards. Twice the fights. Every aspect of MMA represented. Quit trying to compre the orgs people. It gets old the way fans compare these companies in a pissing contest..

Just enjoy the the fact that we had that much MMA in one night. It was a great night of fights. :thumbsup:


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

I'm a fan of MMA and I found TUF Finale boring as hell...hendricks/story was a stale ass grappling match, Maia/Grove was boring and irrelevant, bonnar/igor was a good fight until mazaggatti stepped in to put his stamp on a controversial and terrible night of fight...And as for the main event? One guy had no heart, and the guy who won is going to get destroyed if he doesn't get some stand-up pronto.

I don't have showtime, nor do my friends, but I did catch the strikeforce fights after the fact and would have much preferred to have been watching that. Its not that I'm all about the KO, I'm all about being entertained, and TUF Finale was NOT entertaining IMO. It was UFC 119 with a bunch of nobodies.

I'm not a UFC loyalist either, and I find brand/organization loyalty to be short sighted and DUMB!


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## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

I agree....TUF 12 Finale was hot garbage.

Strikeforce Hendo vs Babalu was far more exciting.

UFC/ Dana/ Joey Silva....you are starting to let me down :thumbsdown:


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

420atalon said:


> As I have already posted a couple times tonight. If all you want to see is one sided lower end fights then SF will keep you thoroughly entertained.
> 
> If you like watching the little technical aspects of fighting, close matchups and a hell of a lot more decent events then the UFC is heads and shoulders above SF.
> 
> ...


EDITED due to better judgement, the oppressive nature of message boards and having been on the recieving end of insult penalties... While your watching your 3 UFC events, I'll be watching every UFC and Strikeforce event that I damn well please cause I'm not a brand loyalist.



420atalon said:


> There was MMA in the SF event? Where was the wrestling aspect? BJJ? Standup defense?
> 
> They had some good brawls tonight... Unfortunately that seems to be what some people appreciate about MMA. Legitimized bar fights...
> 
> TUF tonight was full of back and forth wars. It had technical strikers vs brawlers, strikers vs grapplers and top wrestlers battling for control.


As much as you seem to be denying it in this post, the stand-up game is a part of MMA, you're trying to say that strikeforce sucks because people got KOed? If people got KOed last night in TUF Finale you'd be jumping up and down in your seat like a kid in a candy shop.

And I'm sorry, but there was nothing close to resembling a WAR in last nights UFC event. UFC is full of passive fighters riding decisions at the moment. 



420atalon said:


> Strikeforce is like prehistoric MMA... Like the old UFC events...
> 
> It is still MMA and it is more exciting to some because of lopsided fights made up of 1 dimensional fighters.
> 
> ...


Maybe strikforce is like prehistoric UFC, because its an MMA organization in its early phase much like UFC went through. You honestly expect strikeforce to be UFC caliber talent and fights right out of the freaking gate? Especially when Dana White is trying to monopolize this sport by holding onto it tighter than his own wang?

And dude, 420, please tell me how Bonnar/Igor, Maia/Grove, Garcia/Phan and TUF Finale were relevent to the sport of MMA in any way shape or form, cause they weren't...


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

sNuFf_rEaLiTy said:


> As much as you seem to be denying it in this post, the stand-up game is a part of MMA, you're trying to say that strikeforce sucks because people got KOed? If people got KOed last night in TUF Finale you'd be jumping up and down in your seat like a kid in a candy shop.


Stand up game is an aspect of MMA, so is wrestling, BJJ and stand up defense, all of which were not really apparent in SF's event. I actually didn't find half the knockouts impressive or entertaining because I knew they were coming... Only entertaining fight for me was Kyle kicking Silva's ass early and then Silva being able to come back in the second. I like wars, not one sided beatdowns. 



sNuFf_rEaLiTy said:


> And I'm sorry, but there was nothing close to resembling a WAR in last nights UFC event. UFC is full of passive fighters riding decisions at the moment.


Every fight was a war and went back and forth... Garcia was on Phan all night but couldn't land the one clean shot needed to end fight. Story was able to handle Hendricks early and outstrike him but then Hendricks was able to overpower him later. Maia was able to out grapple Grove who had a standup advantage. Bonnar and Pokrajac went back and forth with both guys nearly going out. Johnson picked Brookins apart early but then got manhandled later.

Those are the definitions of wars... Back and forth battles between the two guys. Phan vs Garcia may have been the only slugfest but they were all MMA wars...



sNuFf_rEaLiTy said:


> Maybe strikforce is like prehistoric UFC, because its an MMA organization in its early phase much like UFC went through. You honestly expect strikeforce to be UFC caliber talent and fights right out of the freaking gate? Especially when Dana White is trying to monopolize this sport by holding onto it tighter than his own wang?


Partly true but SF is never going to compete with the UFC. UFC is turning MMA into a competitive sport. They have by far the best fighters and by far the deepest group of fighters. They have 10* the production ability and commentating. They are worldwide and growing at a huge rate. 

Stirkeforce needs to go back to developing younger fighters, as long as they keep fighting irrelevant dinosaurs against each other they will never grow as an organization. 



sNuFf_rEaLiTy said:


> And dude, 420, please tell me how Bonnar/Igor, Maia/Grove, Garcia/Phan and TUF Finale were relevent to the sport of MMA in any way shape or form, cause they weren't...


And any of SF's fights were relevant to the sport? Lol... Sadly half those fights were relevant to SF and a couple will lead to title matches but to think Lawler, Silva, Henderson or Daley are relevant in the division they fought last night is horrible... Will probably see Henderson fighting for LHW title when he can't even get the MW one... Daley can strike but has absolutely no ground game as a couple UFC fighters have shown(Kos and Shields)... Lawler is and has always been a brawler, I doubt he could stick in the UFC and Silva would get lit up by Cain, JDS, Carwin and Lesnar would take him down and pummel him.

SF had some good gatekeepers fight some cans last night... UFC showcased 5 good up and coming fighters(Phan, Story, Hendricks, Johnson, Brookins), a borderline contender who looked slightly improved in Maia and a few exciting lower end guys(Bonnar, Pokrajac and Garcia). TUF was FAR more relevant to MMA's future then SF was...


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## Guymay (Jul 6, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> Finished watching SF. TUF was far superior IMO. Every one of those fights was mismatched as hell. Bigfoot vs a Light Heavy (And damn near getting beat at that), Scott "I eat punches for breakfast" Smith vs Paul "My breakfast will ******* kill you if you try to eat it" Daley and Dan Henderson (top 5 MW in the world) vs Babalu, who's not top 10 anything.


seriously , They put 3 hardest hitters in their Devision Versus 3 Guys with Glass Chins . yeah seeing KO is fun but that was a total Mismatched fights . and that dosen't get me all that exicted . but they won over the casual fans with this so good for them .


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

420atalon said:


> Stand up game is an aspect of MMA, so is wrestling, BJJ and stand up defense, all of which were not really apparent in SF's event. I actually didn't find half the knockouts impressive or entertaining because I knew they were coming... Only entertaining fight for me was Kyle kicking Silva's ass early and then Silva being able to come back in the second. I like wars, not one sided beatdowns.


to each his own, but that was just the way the cookie crumbled that night, I don't see how you can hold that against SF really. 

Although I figured Lawler would KO Lindland early, MMA is unpredictable. And people tend to forget that it was only a mere 5 years ago that both these figures were considered contenders in the UFC. Maybe they're not UFC championship caliber, but that doesn't make their fight irrelevant. Maybe to some, but surely not to all MMA fans. 

That Daley KO while predictable, was mighty impressive IMO. And yeah, the Kyle/Silva fight was awesome. 





420atalon said:


> Every fight was a war and went back and forth... Garcia was on Phan all night but couldn't land the one clean shot needed to end fight. Story was able to handle Hendricks early and outstrike him but then Hendricks was able to overpower him later. Maia was able to out grapple Grove who had a standup advantage. Bonnar and Pokrajac went back and forth with both guys nearly going out. Johnson picked Brookins apart early but then got manhandled later.
> 
> Those are the definitions of wars... Back and forth battles between the two guys. Phan vs Garcia may have been the only slugfest but they were all MMA wars...


To me, a war is when the fighters punches are actually connecting and both are slugging it out. Apparently my defenition of a war differs from yours somewhere. Garcia/Jung was a war...Garcia/Phan was just another fight with a terrible decision.

Hendricks and Story spent well over a round and a half in piss poor grappling stalemates. Hendricks comes out shouting how he's going to finish a fight and then shamelessly hangs on to a guys legs for 3 minutes.

Grove/Maia in all respects didn't hold my interest, I found myself staring into my beer on that one so I wont comment further. Bonnar/Igor was the closest thing to resemble a "war" but I would call that just a fight as well.

And as for the main event with Brookins and Johnson, that was Strikeforce caliber at best....so I don't know what there really is to take from that anyhow. That fight in strikeforce would have been considered bad by most IMO.





420atalon said:


> Partly true but SF is never going to compete with the UFC. UFC is turning MMA into a competitive sport. They have by far the best fighters and by far the deepest group of fighters. They have 10* the production ability and commentating. They are worldwide and growing at a huge rate.
> 
> Stirkeforce needs to go back to developing younger fighters, as long as they keep fighting irrelevant dinosaurs against each other they will never grow as an organization.


I'm not waving a flag for strikeforce or anything, and I don't think their fighters are on the same level as UFC and shouldn't be compared. IMO strikeforce is an entertaining developmental division for young fighters and veterans who are mildly hanging tough.

Nothing wrong with that. It's like in Nascar...UFC is the equivelent of the sprint cup, while strikeforce is the busch leagues. I find I enjoy strikeforce a lot more when I take the UFC comparisons out of the equation.

there's room for more MMA organizations in the world, especially the way Dana's been cutting fighters lately.





420atalon said:


> And any of SF's fights were relevant to the sport? Lol... Sadly half those fights were relevant to SF and a couple will lead to title matches but to think Lawler, Silva, Henderson or Daley are relevant in the division they fought last night is horrible... Will probably see Henderson fighting for LHW title when he can't even get the MW one... Daley can strike but has absolutely no ground game as a couple UFC fighters have shown(Kos and Shields)... Lawler is and has always been a brawler, I doubt he could stick in the UFC and Silva would get lit up by Cain, JDS, Carwin and Lesnar would take him down and pummel him.
> 
> SF had some good gatekeepers fight some cans last night... UFC showcased 5 good up and coming fighters(Phan, Story, Hendricks, Johnson, Brookins), a borderline contender who looked slightly improved in Maia and a few exciting lower end guys(Bonnar, Pokrajac and Garcia). TUF was FAR more relevant to MMA's future then SF was...


While no fights from either card last night were that relevant to the sport of MMA as a whole, strikeforce's card was full of highlight reel material that I'm sure will be seen in promo's for years to come whereas the TUF Finale will simply be another forgotten event.

Bigfoot and Mike Kyle are probably going to hover where they're at in their divisions. Lawler can probably keep knocking off some heads, while Lindland should retire. Henderson was beat by an apparent UFC championship "contender" and is now back in contention at 205 where he will probably get the belt, and Daley is in a prime position due to a lack of top level wrestlers.

I think all the fighters who fought on TUF finale last night are a lot closer to strikeforce material than UFC material. But that UFC banner seems to ridiculously boost your street cred.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Emericanaddict said:


> It's a common abbreviation system for many French Canadians. There's a proffessional skater that's been around before GSP and he goes by PLG Pierre Luc Gagnon.
> 
> That being said I didn't see the fight and they probably were trying to make a comparison lol.


I know who PLG is and I didn't really think about it that way. I guess it's because they said it SO MUCH. Even with Georges and Pierre Luc they still call them Pierre and Georges half the time. That or St. Pierre and Gangnon (SP?). With Ovince there was absolutely none of that. To me it sounded like they were trying to force calling him OSP (it doesn't roll off the tounge as easily as Pee El Gee or Gee Es Pee) for a marketing ploy to capitalize on a fighter who already has that famous moniker. Really annoyed the shit out of me.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

sNuFf_rEaLiTy said:


> I'm not waving a flag for strikeforce or anything, and I don't think their fighters are on the same level as UFC and shouldn't be compared. IMO strikeforce is an entertaining developmental division for young fighters and veterans who are mildly hanging tough.


That is very questionable, it depends what division you are looking in, UFC tops it in LW, WW and MW for sure, but at the heavier weights SF can certainly compete with the UFC with the talent and quality of match ups it has to offer.

I strongly believe that the SF HW division is stronger than the UFC HW division, and I think that there is at least a more diverse display of talent in the LHW division also, and while the UFC recently only seems to be expanding the lower weight division there LHW division has suffered dramatically over the last year especially during which time SF has been focused more on these divisions and has improved them, and I think now the LHW division has reached a level where it could hold its own against the LHW division at the UFC.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

John8204 said:


> Canadian Psycho and Alpha Dog I know this goes against your monikers but maybe you two should cool it (and edit out) with the personal comments. Especially you Alpha Dog, the mods may have sided with you with Vincent but two fights in two weeks is not a good idea.


You guys really should listen to the voice of reason.



killershark said:


> That is very questionable, it depends what division you are looking in, UFC tops it in LW, WW and MW for sure, but at the heavier weights SF can certainly compete with the UFC with the talent and quality of match ups it has to offer.
> 
> I strongly believe that the SF HW division is stronger than the UFC HW division, and I think that there is at least a more diverse display of talent in the LHW division also, and while the UFC recently only seems to be expanding the lower weight division there LHW division has suffered dramatically over the last year especially during which time SF has been focused more on these divisions and has improved them, and I think now the LHW division has reached a level where it could hold its own against the LHW division at the UFC.


Okay I can agree with you on the HW front. Allistair, Fedor and FaDOOM probably could hang with Cain, JDS and Brock/Carwin/Mir. But LHW? No way in hell. No way. Who does SF have a LHW? King Mo, Henderson and Babalu would all just get completely murdered by top 10 LHWs in the UFC IMO. Henderson would be the only guy to put up a fight. I don't buy the hype on Mousasi after his fight with Mo either. Especially considering the UFC is filled with wrestler who would make Mo cry. Feijao hasn't beaten anyone even RANKED with the exception of Mo, whom I don't think should be ranked in the first place. Yes, he's impressive, and given time I'm sure Feijao and possibly Mousasi will cement themselves as top 10 LHWs but I'm not buying it until I see it happen. Anyone can look spectacular against low level competition.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

KillerShark1985 said:


> That is very questionable, it depends what division you are looking in, UFC tops it in LW, WW and MW for sure, but at the heavier weights SF can certainly compete with the UFC with the talent and quality of match ups it has to offer.
> 
> I strongly believe that the SF HW division is stronger than the UFC HW division, and I think that there is at least a more diverse display of talent in the LHW division also, and while the UFC recently only seems to be expanding the lower weight division there LHW division has suffered dramatically over the last year especially during which time SF has been focused more on these divisions and has improved them, and I think now the LHW division has reached a level where it could hold its own against the LHW division at the UFC.


I've said this a hundred times on this forum, I'm of the belief that the competition level is a hell of a lot closer across the board than most fans give credit. So I would not disagree with you on those points.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

I'm willing to bet tuf massively out rated Strikeforce so it really doesn't matter if you thought the show was better. Also the TUF finals are the absolute weakest shows the ufc ever does and comparing one of the biggest shows of the year for strikeforce to it really just shows how much of a joke strikeforce is.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

TraMaI said:


> Okay I can agree with you on the HW front. Allistair, Fedor and FaDOOM probably could hang with Cain, JDS and Brock/Carwin/Mir. But LHW? No way in hell. No way. Who does SF have a LHW? King Mo, Henderson and Babalu would all just get completely murdered by top 10 LHWs in the UFC IMO. Henderson would be the only guy to put up a fight. I don't buy the hype on Mousasi after his fight with Mo either. Especially considering the UFC is filled with wrestler who would make Mo cry. Feijao hasn't beaten anyone even RANKED with the exception of Mo, whom I don't think should be ranked in the first place. Yes, he's impressive, and given time I'm sure Feijao and possibly Mousasi will cement themselves as top 10 LHWs but I'm not buying it until I see it happen. Anyone can look spectacular against low level competition.


if you want to look at people looking spectacular against lower level guys look no further than Jones, there is something lacking in the UFC LHW division at the moment, wrestling wise take the best the UFC has on offer been Rash, Jones and Badar. King Mo has a more successful college wrestling record than any of them giving then arguably a better wrestler to work within there division.

if you want to compare the level of submission artists in both diviions then its not even close, the UFC division is really lacking in talented submission experts when compaired to SF, they dont even have a submission artist in that division equal to the level of Sobral (Davis maybe) but when you bring Mousasi and Roger Gracie into the equasion SF win there hands down.

Talented Strikers with the likes of Shogun, Machida, Rampage Shogun and Rampage are both past there best imo yet still able to succeed at the top end of the division, and nether are well rounded, Machida is arguably the most well rounded out of all the fighters in the division along side Rash, while at SF you have Kyle, Feijao and Mousasi all very well rounded with excellent striking and all just reaching peak levels of there careers, and going on professional record alone there new guy OSP could well prove to be a top level striker with a well rounded skill set to aid him in the grappling aspect of the game, so another excellent addition to there division.



osmium said:


> I'm willing to bet tuf massively out rated Strikeforce so it really doesn't matter if you thought the show was better. Also the TUF finals are the absolute weakest shows the ufc ever does and comparing one of the biggest shows of the year for strikeforce to it really just shows how much of a joke strikeforce is.


if you think that event was bigger from a SF perspective than Overeem vs Rogers, King Mo vs Feijao or even Fedor vs Werdum then you are kidding yourself, I cant wait to see what card they give us for Overeem vs Werdum thats when SF will next go all out.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I liked TUF a little more, cause I couldn't tell who was going to win those fights. At SF with the exception of the Main Event, I was pretty sure that these fights would turn out similar to the way they did. Of course that all 3 were early finishes was pretty incredible itself.

If you don't believe me, check out the Strikeforce Pick'Em Thread.

Thats why Maia's display of greatness and other thing's stand out more for me.



dudeabides said:


> I found a way to watch both with one monitor on top of the other, it was pretty cool but hard to look away from the one with Strikeforce during those last 4 fights. And I was at work! Heh, suckers.


I want your Job NOW!!!



vilify said:


> I'm really not sure what the confusion is about. Last night SF show was more exciting than the UFC show by any metrics used to judge MMA.
> 
> Overall UFC is the better ORG and consistently puts on good to excellent shows, while SF puts on average to decent shows every few months.
> 
> So overall there is no comparison between the two but to say that last nights SF event wasnt more exciting is just being in denial.


TUF was better!


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## Pound&Mound (Dec 10, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> if you want to look at people looking spectacular against lower level guys look no further than Jones, there is something lacking in the UFC LHW division at the moment, wrestling wise take the best the UFC has on offer been Rash, Jones and Badar. King Mo has a more successful college wrestling record than any of them giving then arguably a better wrestler to work within there division.
> 
> if you want to compare the level of submission artists in both diviions then its not even close, the UFC division is really lacking in talented submission experts when compaired to SF, they dont even have a submission artist in that division equal to the level of Sobral (Davis maybe) but when you bring Mousasi and Roger Gracie into the equasion SF win there hands down.
> 
> ...


I am sorry, who has Roger gracie submitted? And what did Gegard do for 5 rounds laying under a wannabe Rashad Evans King Mo? Bahahahah. 

And the MW division in strikeforce is definitely crappier than the UFC right, because they got Micheal Bisping right?


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

When did Strikeforce or UFC become a Jesus for people to worship?!

I'll try to be objective in my observations.

I think Strikeforce's show was far more entertaining, but it's not like you couldn't see the blowouts coming. (With the exclusion of Hendo vs Babalu)

When the UFC has a card where Koscheck or Anthony Johnson visciously, and predictably KO' Yoshiyuki Yoshida, Hey, I am entertained, but the drama is not there when I can see it coming from grandma's house.

The UFC card was solid. I didn't think the Nam Phan decision was that bad....... but I didn't really care as I was giving my attention to Strikeforce for much of that time. 

I dunno, I just don't see why this is a hot topic for either side of the debate. Strikeforce is still in the building stages of showcasing their main talent, in _sometimes_ lobsided affairs, and the UFC is further along in it's life, truely trying to sort out where their talent belongs. 

As for last night, Strikeforce had my casual fan friends far more entertained, and they watched every episode of TUF this season.


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## Wookie (Jul 20, 2008)

I liked both cards, but I would have to say that SF was the more exciting card. Although most of the fights were predictable on the SF card.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Pound&Mound said:


> I am sorry, who has Roger gracie submitted?


Everybody he's ever competed against in the last two years (except, I think, Demente in the finals of Mundials; but I think he whipped his ass pretty thoroughly, too).

Seriously? You're going to give a guy crap for saying that there are better BJJ guys in Strikeforce. That's hardly even debatable at this point.

Actually, I think counting Sobral is unnecessary.

Just look at the list of world champions.

Strikeforce: Roger Gracie, Ronaldo Jacare, Fabricio Werdum and Andre Galvao.

UFC: Demian Maia and B.J. Penn.

Strikeforce wins in terms of quantity and in terms of quality. Roger is the best active competitor in BJJ and (from a statistical standpoint) the greatest competitor of all time. He's a 10X world champion (if I'm doing my math right). So, "Who has Roger Gracie submitted?" is a bit like asking "Who has Manny Pacquiao beaten?" or "Who has Alexander Karelin thrown?"

It's completely ridiculous.


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## thrshr01 (Dec 30, 2007)

A question for you guys:

Was the Strikeforce card for you exciting because of the KO's? 

For me, if the fights are so mismatched that I know who's going to win. I don't care if there's a vicious KO at the end. To me that's boring. Exciting fights to me are the competitive ones where i'm kept sitting on the edge of the couch and I don't know if there's going to be a KO, crazy sub, or too close to call split decision. 

Big KO's are cool to see (to a certain extent), but if you know fighter A is going to kill fighter B is not exciting. It's actually boring to know who's going to win. We watch to see and find out who the better fighter is, not because we know.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Everybody he's ever competed against in the last two years (except, I think, Demente in the finals of Mundials; but I think he whipped his ass pretty thoroughly, too).
> 
> Seriously? You're going to give a guy crap for saying that there are better BJJ guys in Strikeforce. That's hardly even debatable at this point.
> 
> ...


MMA isn't a grappling competition Roger would get raped by borderline UFC fighters. You realize Randleman is old and ******* awful and Roger struggled with him right? Mirko subbed him in 42 seconds when he was a hell of a lot closer to his prime.

Do you know who is a better grappler than Roger Gracie in MMA at 205? Rampage, Rashad, Chuck, Randy, Vera, Lyoto, Andy, Thiago, Lil Nog, Bones, Bader, Brilz, and Shogun. Roger is on the losing end of any of those fights if they end up on the ground because he will be on the bottom stiff as a board or turtled up getting beaten on. He wouldn't last 50 seconds with a kid like Bones ontop of him in an mma fight.


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

OK Peoples 

Keep this on Topic 

This thread is talking about TUF got murdered 

So basically discussions should relate to which card you thought was better ...Not Which Fighting Organization is better


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

M_D said:


> OK Peoples
> 
> Keep this on Topic
> 
> ...


:innocent01:


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## daveh98 (May 26, 2007)

One of the old school ideologies with some MMA boards and fans was that boxing sucks because there aren't enough knockouts. My contention a long time ago was that higher level fighters will treat their matches like chess often. Lower level boxers fight and they end in KO's. 

We are seeing this with the UFC and then SF. The higher the skills and the more that is on the line, the lesser the chance of getting caught and KO'ed. Why? More skill and ability to avoid the KO, better chin, etc. 

With that, I personally thought the SF card was MUCH more exciting to watch. I was in the mood to see some knockouts and I got exactly what I wanted to see for the night.

The reality is that UFC fans shouldn't care if SF had a good night. They should be happy. More competition will be great for the sport and better for the fighters. 

I had the "good problem" of flipping between SF and UFC and deciding which fight to focus more on last night....my life is good. :thumbsup:


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

osmium said:


> MMA isn't a grappling competition Roger would get raped by borderline UFC fighters. You realize Randleman is old and ******* awful and Roger struggled with him right? Mirko subbed him in 42 seconds when he was a hell of a lot closer to his prime.


Of course MMA grappling is different than pure grappling.

You asked (presumably rhetorically) "Who has Roger Gracie submitted?"

The answer basically undermines the need for the question: Everybody he's ever fought, under the circumstances that he's fought.



> Do you know who is a better grappler than Roger Gracie in MMA at 205? Rampage, Rashad, Chuck, Randy, Vera, Lyoto, Andy, Thiago, Lil Nog, Bones, Bader, Brilz, and Shogun. Roger is on the losing end of any of those fights if they end up on the ground because he will be on the bottom stiff as a board or turtled up getting beaten on. He wouldn't last 50 seconds with a kid like Bones ontop of him in an mma fight.


This list is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. You really think there's a single guy on this list that would ever let a fight with Roger get anywhere near the mat? And you think they would win if it got there? O.K. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm not sure where it comes from, but you're entitled to it.

MMA grappling is totally different. Here's the problem, a guy like Jones, who does a basic, high bluebelt level posture-up in guard would get swept on his ass so quickly by a guy like Roger that he'd never have the opportunity to start throwing strikes. The ground-and-pound against high level jiu-jitsu practitioners only works if you create posture, and there's no way in hell that any of these guys have that kind of posture. Thiago, Lil Nog, Machida, Vera and Shogun aren't nearly as dangerous in the ground-and-pound as Jones, but still could never posture out against a guy like Roger.

I'm not sure how Randy, Chuck, Bader and Rashad even ended up on this list. The best argument is that these guys would never let a fight hit the ground against someone like Roger Gracie. And, actually, I agree with that.

Brilz and Rampage? I'm not sure where these guys are coming into the conversation from. Randleman on his worst day has a more relevant grappling skillset then either of them.

The problem with Roger, as can be stated over and over again, is that he can be kept off of the ground. The thing that people who state that MMA grappling and BJJ grappling are different don't seem to get is that, if you have a great high guard game, great sweeps and great top control, you have a functional attack plan in both of those areas of competition, and that's why Roger is at least an interesting prospect in MMA.

Is he the most well established grappler in MMA? No. He's only three fights into his career, and I doubt he's take more than ten fights in his entire life, but the fact is, if any of these guys hits the mat against Roger, they're lost.

The lightheavyweight division doesn't have the technical caliber of grappling (especially defensive grappling) that many of the other divisions have. It's one of the peculiarities of the talent pool, and I'm not sure why it's turned out that way, but it has. That's really neither here nor there, but to assert that any of the guys you named are better grapplers, in an MMA context, than Roger doesn't make sense.


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

AlphaDawg said:


> ......Cool? So am I. Not sure what you're getting at here.


he's a ufc fan boy thats trying to say he's a die hard mma fan when he really isn't. a true mma fan wouldn't try to deny the fact that the strikeforce event was awesome.



thrshr01 said:


> A question for you guys:
> 
> Was the Strikeforce card for you exciting because of the KO's?
> 
> ...


your logic is fail sir... MMA is unpredictable, thats one of the great aspects of the sport.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

chilo said:


> he's a ufc fan boy thats trying to say he's a die hard mma fan when he really isn't. a true mma fan wouldn't try to deny the fact that the strikeforce event was awesome.


ant that the truth 

What is a fact is that the quality of fighters on last nights SF card was higher than the quality of fighters on the UFC card and the result was a more entertaining event.

Best thing about everyone who posted to deny this fact in favour of the UFC card, is that they are only doing so because its the UFC and they somehow believe that anything and everyone involved in the UFC is superior to anything and anyone involved with SF, just take a look at the list of fighters Osmium pulled out of his ass who he thinks would out grapple Roger Gracie and it says it all.

If on the other hand the tables where flipped and the entertainment level that was produced from the SF card had instead of occurred on the UFC card then these exact same people would be crying out about how great the UFC event was and the KO hat trick in there eyes would of been legendary.


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## thrshr01 (Dec 30, 2007)

chilo said:


> your logic is fail sir... MMA is unpredictable, thats one of the great aspects of the sport.


how exactly does my logic fail? My comment was directed towards the people saying they pretty much know the outcome of the fight. If one thinks he/she knows what the outcome is going to be, where is the excitement? It kills the unpredictability of the sport (which I agree with you and that is why I'd rather watch a fight with equal fighters - makes it more exciting) when your sitting there knowing who's going to win but just waiting for that KO.


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> ant that the truth
> 
> What is a fact is that the quality of fighters on last nights SF card was higher than the quality of fighters on the UFC card and the result was a more entertaining event.
> 
> ...


I really like strike force....but i did not like the SF card better then the ufc card. 

I like chess matches, I always have. A big KO is nice to see every once in a while but thats all they had on that card. 

UFC had a few cards in recent memory where it was all ko's (or pretty much to it) and I was not thrilled with those cards either 

to put it in perspective, I am one of the biggest BJ Penn Nuthuggers on here and I did not like his last fight with Matt hughs because it was Check Mate in one move, I would much prefer it to go back and forth picking each other apart on the stand up then going to the ground using technical ability and skills to get the best position and go for subs or at the very least some good G and P 

Strikeforce has had some great cards before this was just not one of them for me


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

thrshr01 said:


> how exactly does my logic fail? My comment was directed towards the people saying they pretty much know the outcome of the fight. If one thinks he/she knows what the outcome is going to be, where is the excitement? It kills the unpredictability of the sport (which I agree with you and that is why I'd rather watch a fight with equal fighters - makes it more exciting) when your sitting there knowing who's going to win but just waiting for that KO.


So how do you feel about GSP vs Kos?

Oh and incidentally the result could not really of been as foreseeable because I recall checking the Stikeforce Pick-Um League results they run here and most people did very badly, much less people got a good score the other night from the SF card than did well on the UFC 123 for example.

What makes me laugh really is the UFC nut huggers always all come out after every SF event and find some way to rip it down and start shouting "down with SF" or writing comments about how badly it went, like when Fedor lost everyone laughed saying SF was finished, when the fight broke out after the Shields vs Henderson fight everyone came out writing sh1t about how that would finish them and how Showtime would pull the TV deal they have.

Even after the Overeem vs Rogers and the King Mo vs Feijao, which make no mistake where 2 of the very best MMA events of the year, people going about called themselves MMA fans refused to acknowledged the quality of the events and even resorted to out right lies as I recall to try picking faults with the event, reporting things like "Overeem showed bad sportsmanship" I can recall for example. And all of a sudden King Mo (the most decorated college wrestler in ether organisation) was a can whos wrestling was over rated, giving no credit at all the the outstanding TD defence of Feijao.

So its just funny how you guys come out everytime in support of your beloved UFC wishing dead and Bankruptcy to Strikeforce, but now you really are having to pull on thin cords because there really has been nothing wrong with any of the recent SF events.


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

I only watched replays later but they were both fun to watch. Strikeforce definately put on a good card and it was nice to see a lot of KO's. I liked both.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

thrshr01 said:


> A question for you guys:
> 
> Was the Strikeforce card for you exciting because of the KO's?
> 
> ...


I don't really agree with this because how many times are there fights in the UFC where most fans are certain we are in for a treat of a battle or a nice vicious KO, and it never comes to fruition.

That happens a lot, and the same thing could have happened in the strikeforce bouts, instead the KO's were delivered, and people are acting like thats a bad thing...

the strikeforce event that went head to head with TUF finale was a legendary event for strikeforce much like UFC 47 was for UFC where most fights ended quick and brutal like.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

There was one good fight on the Strikeforce card and four beatdowns. The UFC card had five evenly matched fights and four really good ones.

Frankly if the UFC made a mistake it was not showing Garza's KO of the night cause that was sick.


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## thrshr01 (Dec 30, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> So how do you feel about GSP vs Kos?
> 
> Oh and incidentally the result could not really of been as foreseeable because I recall checking the Stikeforce Pick-Um League results they run here and most people did very badly, much less people got a good score the other night from the SF card than did well on the UFC 123 for example.
> 
> ...


I think GSP will win but I'm not certain he will (like how some have worded that they *pretty much knew* what the outcome of the fight was going to be).

I really don't care how people did on the pick em league. I commented on the people claiming that they pretty much knew what the outcome was going to be, not if they were right or wrong. If I "pretty much knew" what the outcome is going to be, to me that's not exciting. There's a difference between thinking and hoping who's going to win and saying "I pretty much knew" who is going to win.

How is saying that I like a technical or better balanced fight UFC nuthugging? I hate it when the UFC matches up fighters to get a well known, potential money maker back track by setting them up with a gimme fight. 

Quality when it comes to someone's opinion is going to differ from another persons. To you, apparently, quality is a nice KO. Good for you. For me, I like a chess match. The chess match happened on the TUF card but not the SF card. That doesn't mean I want SF to go bankrupt. That's just absurd! :confused03:


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