# Is Strikeforce being hurt by big name fighters losin'



## Y4J (Aug 12, 2010)

Do you think Strikeforce is being hurt by all these big names like Henderson, King Mo, and Fedor losing and making Strikeforce seem like where the "ufc rejects" go?

Now don't get me wrong, I myself love MMA and I love when no names, or not so big names, or the underdog beats the "Main attraction" because it shows that there is a lot of MMA talent out there.

But to the audience that is new to MMA or trying to experience MMA outside of UFC, you think this is bad that these big names are losing?

And even as a MMA fan, you kinda gotta admit that these big names losing makes you feel like Strikeforce is losing their draw credibility when these big names are losing?

Btw, I know Strikeforce has good MMA fighters, but tell me if you believe as a company and a BUSINESS, do you think these losses hurt the company?


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well this is how rising stars in MMA are made, upsets!:thumbsup:


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

if they don't market the up an coming fighters then yes.

i wouldn't be surprised if they don't


----------



## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

guy incognito said:


> if they don't market the up an coming fighters then yes.
> 
> i wouldn't be surprised if they don't


They don't really market anyone.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, which is the problem!


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think so... fans know that anything can happen in MMA and there isn't a in the op's words a "ufc reject" holding a title under the STRIKEFORCE banner..

Outside of Fabricio Werdum fighters who have been cut by the UFC haven't fared very well in SF and Fabricio was an absolutley horrible cut by Zuffa.

I think what's gonna hurt SF is the horrible reffing.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah Bellator has had more legit reffing!


----------



## Y4J (Aug 12, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> if they don't market the up an coming fighters then yes.
> 
> i wouldn't be surprised if they don't


Which is my point. They market the big names because... Well, they are the BIG names, but then those names get beat down by these lesser names, which makes them wonder who they should get the "Strikeforce train" behind.

They talk about Lashley and he gets beat, they get the p4p best figher in Fedor and he loses, King Mo loses, Henderson, it's like the people they market (And by all means, are BIG names to market cuz they are great fighters) LOSE so to me, I feel there is a confusion on who they can get behind.

I agree, they should now go for younger fighters and let them shine, but that's even more of a risk then putting their train behind a big name, which isn't doing too well already.


----------



## Dan9 (Jun 14, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> I think what's gonna hurt SF is the horrible reffing.


Use tonight's Noons/Gurgel finish as an example of that LOL.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah they don't know how to officiate!:thumbsdown:


----------



## KEYZER-SOZE (Jul 31, 2010)

yeah that was pretty jacked up reffing, gurgel took a nasty knee on the way back up because that dude couldnt make up his mind on wether to end the fight or not


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

They must all be beginners!


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

KEYZER-SOZE said:


> yeah that was pretty jacked up reffing, gurgel took a nasty knee on the way back up because that dude couldnt make up his mind on wether to end the fight or not


Not only that but Noons hit after the bell at the end of round 1. If Gurgel stays down and can't continue Noons is DQd. As is the ref should have at least taken a point away. 

I think tonight was bad for Strikeforce promotioning abilities. Out of the four major fights 3 were won by the less marketable fighter. King Mo and Lashley were marketing machines as two dominant wrestlers that were undefeated. Jacare won't be hard to market, but how much press would war hero Kennedy have gotten as the champ.


----------



## KEYZER-SOZE (Jul 31, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Not only that but Noons hit after the bell at the end of round 1. If Gurgel stays down and can't continue Noons is DQd. As is the ref should have at least taken a point away.
> 
> I think tonight was bad for Strikeforce promotioning abilities. Out of the four major fights 3 were won by the less marketable fighter. King Mo and Lashley were marketing machines as two dominant wrestlers that were undefeated. Jacare won't be hard to market, but how much press would war hero Kennedy have gotten as the champ.


yeah that woulda been huge for coker if kenedey won, i dont think even scott coker could have screwed up promoting him if he won. king mo losing by ko hurt them bad too, and ive seen a few comments on diffrent sites about how people dont think bobby can cut it fighting against legit competition. so great night of fights but horrible results from a buissness sense


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Most of the fighters are up and coming anyway its not like Mo was a established fighter. I dont think it will hurt as much as the commentating of which I cant stand.


----------



## KEYZER-SOZE (Jul 31, 2010)

gus johnson= full blown ri-tard as far as being an mma commentator
ken shamrock= hes decent but nothing to write home about
mauro ranallo= was it just me or did it look like the dude had a herpes breakout tonight


----------



## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> if they don't market the up an coming fighters then yes.
> 
> i wouldn't be surprised if they don't


Marketing up the fighters dont made them better fighters even tho some people round here seem to think thats the case, personally I think SF is growing faster that any MMA promotion in the past and the only reason the UFC is bigger right now is because its been around longer.

SF has many rising stars right now and its not because they are hyped up its because they are great fighters, Jacare, Feijao, Roger Gracie to name a few, not to meantion the ever growing talents of Mousasi (who will be back to get that title and has many great years in the sport ahead of him at only 24 years old), Melendez who is starting to look like the new prodigy, seriously Melendez is starting to look like BJ Penn in his peak, I am not saying Penn is past it I think he will be back to take his title with vengeance, but I dont think Melendez would of lost to Edger, then you have a Peaking champion in Overeem who know one has survived the first round with for the last 2 or 3 years, and he is not some untested champion with only 6 fights to his name 45 fights to his name and now in his prime with that kind of experience already behind him, I seriously believe Overeem would knock the fcuk out of Lesnar.

While SF is bring up these new stars the UFC is sometimes like watching the demise of old stars and fighters who have achieve there peak elsewhere and taking in on Merit.

I think its kind of like Chelsea vs Arsenal, Chelsea been the UFC currently the better team with bags of talent in there proven team, but dam the future looks bright for Arsenal.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

KEYZER-SOZE said:


> gus johnson= full blown ri-tard as far as being an mma commentator
> ken shamrock= hes decent but nothing to write home about
> mauro ranallo= was it just me or did it look like the dude had a herpes breakout tonight


This is where you're wrong...... If Ken was commentating this fight I would have shot myself in the head well before the main event.. I can't stand hearing Ken Shamrock bump his gums...

STRIKEFORCE needs Bas Rutten.


----------



## KEYZER-SOZE (Jul 31, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> This is where you're wrong...... If Ken was commentating this fight I would have shot myself in the head well before the main event.. I can't stand hearing Ken Shamrock bump his gums...
> 
> STRIKEFORCE needs Bas Rutten.


shoot didnt even notice i wrote ken instead of frank :confused02: but that would be absolutely amazing if they managed to convince el guapo to commemtate for them


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> This is where you're wrong...... If Ken was commentating this fight I would have shot myself in the head well before the main event.. I can't stand hearing Ken Shamrock bump his gums...
> 
> STRIKEFORCE needs Bas Rutten.


I would love to see Ken commentate for Strikeforce it would be epically unintentional funny. "Diaz just kicked him with a kick Gus" "He sure did Ken." Come on that shit would be priceless. 

I am starting the one man campaign now to have Frank replaced by Ken, if its gonna be bad I want epically bad. Whose with me?


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)




----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

This was way back when are aren't we off topic now?


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

you walked into a conversation about Ken Shamrock regardless of what the OP was originally talking about.


Feel free to comment on that if you want. But seriously don't mess up our Ken dialogue we got goin here..


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Why does the word double standard ring a bell to me?


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

kantowrestler said:


> Why does the word double standard ring a bell to me?


Well I'm not you so I can't answer your question. 

Maybe if you rephrased your question in a more direct fasion than any issue you seem to be having here can be properly addressed.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok, why is it that everytime I go off topic on a thread one of you guys tell me to get back on topic or get out and when I do it you say don't interfere with the conversation that has gone off topic of the thread?


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

kantowrestler said:


> Ok, why is it that everytime I go off topic on a thread one of you guys tell me to get back on topic or get out and when I do it you say don't interfere with the conversation that has gone off topic of the thread?


Well Kanto here's the answer to your question.

I've never told you to "get back on topic" in a thread.

If for some reason you were bugged by us sharing a little chuckle about Ken Shamrock than you are taking this thread too seriously already.

Remember ultimatly mmaforum is a place for discussion and fun as long as it's harmless. You seem to be holding a grudge of some sort or another, and well this just isn't the place for that.

If you have any more questions regarding this topic PM me. 

And don't let small things like this interrupt your posting habits. It truely is not that serious.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

It is just a 2nd rate organization anyway and always has been. I don't think it helps them, but they were 2nd rate anyway.

King Mo easily beats the overrated Mousassi and then loses. Jacre is a good fighter, but I see nothing impressive about him other than his BJJ. He still hasn't beat a top 10 MW. They just have no depth, their top guys cannot get top wins. 

My biggest opinion is they don't have world class fighters or fighters who take it like a job. Mousassi gassed vs. Mo. Mo is pretty one dimensional. Jacre although improving, is pretty one dimensional. And then they try to promote guys like Walker and Lashley, guys who have no right in making a main card of any credible MMA organization's card.

Overall they just need better fighters. Other than their HWs, they don't have much.

Feijao has no credible wins other than Mo. I good but slow strikes. He would get murdered by much of the UFCs LHWs. Not top 10.

Mo has no credible wins other than Mousassi. He is no longer top 10.

Mousassu has a bunch of wins, a few vs. good fighters, but no top wins. He is not top 10.

Diaz is a gamer, but not a dominate fighter. Perhaps their best fighter outside of HW.

Melendez I think is real good. But hard to say where exactly he ranks.

Overall they just have o proven top guys other than Fedor and Diaz. And Fedor just lost.


----------



## Sousa (Jun 16, 2007)

I don't believe so, I think it means there are other orginizations that are good fighters and shoudl be taken more seriously by casual fans


----------



## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

simple answer. no. hendo lost but it was to the sf champ so really it looked more like sf has good fighters than ufc "rejects". fedor was bound to lose and Mo was a sf fighter that lost to a rising sf star in feijao.

it was surprising to see mo get overpowered like that, but it was even more surprising how many shots he took before the fight ended.

sf lhw div is starting to look real competitive. they have three very good lhw's that can beat you in a lot of different ways.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> It is just a 2nd rate organization anyway and always has been. I don't think it helps them, but they were 2nd rate anyway.
> 
> King Mo easily beats the overrated Mousassi and then loses. Jacre is a good fighter, but I see nothing impressive about him other than his BJJ. He still hasn't beat a top 10 MW. They just have no depth, their top guys cannot get top wins.
> 
> ...


Incredible UFC bias here. Murdered by fighters not even in the UFC top 10? Who exactly? I can see Feajaou out striking a lot of the division and dealing very well with the wrestlers.

Strikeforce has a good pool of talent, you're forgetting Alistair overeem, Paul Daley, Hendo, Big Foot, KJ Noons amongst others.


----------



## tlilly (Nov 13, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> My biggest opinion is they don't have world class fighters or *fighters who take it like a job.*


I disagree that they don't have some world class fighters (werdum, fedor, hendo, diaz, melendez). But I agree that their fighters don't take their jobs seriously. And I"m not knocking on any of their motivations or intent. One big problem with strikeforce is they have 0 leverage over their fighters. Great fighters go to strikeforce because they know they can strong arm coker to their terms. Be it lashley with prowrestling, fedor with co-promotion and other fighters fighting overseas. They need to find fighters that can dedicate themselves to their brand. And they can't do it by overpaying them (ala hendo)


----------



## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

I think strikeforce is getting hurt by being unable to get their champs to fight the number 1 contender. They should also do more shows and try and tie their fighters to staying with them, rather then fighting in Japan as well.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Incredible UFC bias here. Murdered by fighters not even in the UFC top 10? Who exactly? I can see Feajaou out striking a lot of the division and dealing very well with the wrestlers.
> 
> Strikeforce has a good pool of talent, you're forgetting Alistair overeem, Paul Daley, Hendo, Big Foot, KJ Noons amongst others.


Never said I was mentioning all of their talent.

Just saying other than HW, their champs are like borderline top 10 fighters who can't hold on to a belt and build a name.

Many of their top fighters have padded records filled with many cans.


----------



## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Many of their top fighters have padded records filled with many cans.


So do Rashad Evans, Shane Carwin, Anderson Silva and Junior dos Santos (just to name a few). Every fighter has to start somewhere and most do it in the minor leagues. Nowadays there's nobody who starts their MMA career in the UFC so you're bound to face 'cans'. Not everybody can be like Randy Couture... or Brock Lesnar.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Incredible UFC bias here. Murdered by fighters not even in the UFC top 10? Who exactly? I can see Feajaou out striking a lot of the division and dealing very well with the wrestlers.
> 
> Strikeforce has a good pool of talent, you're forgetting Alistair overeem, Paul Daley, Hendo, Big Foot, KJ Noons amongst others.


This is the problem with the "guys outside of the UFC are just as good argument" they fight no one but each other. Let's take Feijao for example. Now he will be highly touted even though he only has one big win on his record. This was against top ranked King Mo. King Mo was rated the next top LHW because of one win over Mousasi. Mousasi was ranked so high because of quality wins over guys who couldn't hack it in the UFC guys like Babalu, Sokky, and Kang. He also holds wins over other untested fighters like Jacare and Manhoef. This is the problem. These fighters get ranked by beating each other without being tested by the real top of the division. This does not imo include the LW division, because there are a lot of top LWs still fighting outside of the UFC.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Never said I was mentioning all of their talent.
> 
> Just saying other than HW, their champs are like borderline top 10 fighters who can't hold on to a belt and build a name.
> 
> Many of their top fighters have padded records filled with many cans.


You did say that Fejaou would struggle with UFC LHW's outside of the top 10? Who exactly? I can see this guy easily beating rashad evans (he proved he can handle elite wrestling and hes got better striking than evans), thiago silva and probably rampage. I dont know where you get the idea that he wouldnt be able to hang with people outside of the top 10 in UFC, i just think thats a ridiculous claim.



Hammerlock2.0 said:


> So do Rashad Evans, Shane Carwin, Anderson Silva and Junior dos Santos (just to name a few). Every fighter has to start somewhere and most do it in the minor leagues. Nowadays there's nobody who starts their MMA career in the UFC so you're bound to face 'cans'. Not everybody can be like Randy Couture... or Brock Lesnar.


Exactly.



rockybalboa25 said:


> This is the problem with the "guys outside of the UFC are just as good argument" they fight no one but each other. Let's take Feijao for example. Now he will be highly touted even though he only has one big win on his record. This was against top ranked King Mo. King Mo was rated the next top LHW because of one win over Mousasi. Mousasi was ranked so high because of quality wins over guys who couldn't hack it in the UFC guys like Babalu, Sokky, and Kang. He also holds wins over other untested fighters like Jacare and Manhoef. This is the problem. These fighters get ranked by beating each other without being tested by the real top of the division. This does not imo include the LW division, because there are a lot of top LWs still fighting outside of the UFC.


See above quote.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> So do Rashad Evans, Shane Carwin, Anderson Silva and Junior dos Santos (just to name a few). Every fighter has to start somewhere and most do it in the minor leagues. Nowadays there's nobody who starts their MMA career in the UFC so you're bound to face 'cans'. Not everybody can be like Randy Couture... or Brock Lesnar.


Thanks for proving my point that Strikeforce is a minor league and their fighters are not the quality of the UFC. Silva, Evans, Carwin, and Dos Santos had to go the UFC to prove themselves, which is exactly what most Strikeforce fighters have to do to prove themselves.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I think it was a very nice event overall! I enjoyed it a lot 

Jacare fight awesome :thumbsup::thumbsup:

King fight good :thumbsup:

KJ Noons fight amazing :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Strikeforce's problem is they lack star power and the only way to fix that is to build stars but the problem with that is stars are built by great fights and if you want a great fight the winners are a lot harder to predict. Strikeforce is putting there marketing machine behind guys like Brett Rogers and King Mo trying to build new stars to carry the company but nobody knows if they will win or lose. In pro wrestling they build stars the same way but they get guarantee the guy they are building wins in MMA shit happens and sometimes your horse doesn't win the race.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah they don't realize that they need to build many star and not just a few!


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Strikeforce's problem is they lack star power and the only way to fix that is to build stars but the problem with that is stars are built by great fights and if you want a great fight the winners are a lot harder to predict. Strikeforce is putting there marketing machine behind guys like Brett Rogers and King Mo trying to build new stars to carry the company but nobody knows if they will win or lose. In pro wrestling they build stars the same way but they get guarantee the guy they are building wins in MMA shit happens and sometimes your horse doesn't win the race.


I agree but the problem is that they are picking the wrong guys. Mo and Rogers just aren't that good. They should be looking to build their company around guys like Melendez and diaz. Obviously anyone can get Matt Sera'd. But honestly I didn't think Mo was going to beat Feijao. Also they now that Werdum is out, they need to make Overeem vs Werdum, so their HW title actually has some credibility.


----------



## Tenacious Cole (Aug 6, 2010)

No, actually the opposite imo. New talent winning will pay off much betetr especially when they build rep over some matches. 

As mentioned in the thread, their lack of marketing is going to hurt them most and will probably run them out of business. 

The only reason I knew about the challenger's event was that there was a stack of fliers at the gas station i happened to fill up at.

The irony is though- I only know if Strikeforce events are being televised when the UFC has some kind of special on on a saturday, like recent PPV's and such. Then it clicks in my mind "Ooooh counterprogramming, let's see what SF is doing." or I wouldn't have seen a single SF TV event.


----------



## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Right now I think Strikeforce's only problem is the lack of depth in the divisions. There are very few really good fighters that are not already with the UFC, and those who aren't are with Strikeforce already.


----------

