# I'm a fan of Brock, but I think he is going to get abused



## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

I see this being the worst possible matchup in MMA for Brock. He is fighting a man with great wrestling, INSANE cardio(especially for HW), very dangerous strikes, and his fighting intangibles are unmatched. The guy was born to fight.

Im not sure how Brock wins this fight. I dont think Brock has a big enough wrestling advantage to rely on winning a decision by getting numerous TD's. He has insane power and could land a big shot, but that is the only shot hes got imo

I expect the begining of the fight to look alot like the fight between him and Randy, with Brock pushing Cain against the fence and trying to get Cain down. I dont see it happenning, but if it does expect Cain to use the cage and get right back up. This is wear Cain will pepper Brock with his vastly superior striking. I expect Cain to hurt Brock either late in the first or 2nd and get Brcok to turtle up and unleash hell. I would not be surpised if once Brock has taken some heavy shots standing he gets taken down and pounded out. 

I dont see this fight ending anyway but Cain droppping bombs on Brock as he tries to cover up from a relentless onslaught of punches.

And we will usher in a new dominant champion to the UFC. The Velasquez era begins next week. Which kinda sucks, cuz I love having Brock as champion, his fights are a spectacle.


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## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

We saw these when everyone thought Carwin was going to ruin him.

Cain won't last with Brock, especially after what we've seen with Lesnar surviving Carwin.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

UrbanBounca said:


> We saw these when everyone thought Carwin was going to ruin him.
> 
> Cain won't last with Brock, especially after what we've seen with Lesnar surviving Carwin.


I had Lesnar beating Carwin, because Carwin had never been pushed.

Cain is more well rounded than Carwin, and has MUCH MUCH better cardio. Carwin basically walked into the 2nd round and rolled over. Cain just doesnt stop. Dude is a special fighter, SPECIAL!


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

UrbanBounca said:


> We saw these when everyone thought Carwin was going to ruin him.
> 
> Cain won't last with Brock, especially after what we've seen with Lesnar surviving Carwin.


I also had Lesnar winning against Carwin Urban.

Cain is so much better in every aspect of fighting. The only real disadvantage he has is his size, but everyone who saw what an old Randy was able to do against Lesnar, will know that Cain can do the same just 10 times better. 

And if even if Cain can't put him away, I do believe that he could win every single round to a dominant decision.. cause he will just keep coming.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

i approve of this thread!! (except for being a fan of Lesnar, i respect him but im not really a fan)


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

I see Brock dealing out some viscious punishment in the clinch with knees and elbows before eventually dragging Cain to the ground and finishing with GnP late 2nd, early 3rd.

IMO, the Brock we see against Cain is completely different than the one we saw against Carwin. Brock is actually sparring for this camp. He had virtually zero experience sparring going into the Carwin fight.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

There is one thing I'm picturing when I think of this fight and it's Brock sprawling, taking Cain's back and choking him out.

Now to add some realism...

I don't see anyone gassing in this fight, Brock is a cardio freak and Cain seems to be able to go on fighting forever. If this fight happened in a ring I wouldn't have any doubt that Brock would take Cain down at will, but with a cage in each fighter's back I think this fight will be in a clinch position at least 75% of the time with Brock being in a dominant position and landing these mean knees that look like they're gonna blow your kneecap alongside your lower leg bones. Eventually Brock will be on top and I don't see Cain getting up until the bell rings.


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## KMFO (Aug 16, 2010)

This is about 50/50 huh? It's hard to bed against a guy like Brock, who seems to just be genetically superior to other fights, freaksih even, but Cain is relentless and mean. I think Brock wins, but it truly is a toss up. Either way, can't wait for this fight!


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

leifdawg said:


> I see Brock dealing out some viscious punishment in the clinch with knees and elbows before eventually dragging Cain to the ground and finishing with GnP late 2nd, early 3rd.
> 
> IMO, the Brock we see against Cain is completely different than the one we saw against Carwin. Brock is actually sparring for this camp. He had virtually zero experience sparring going into the Carwin fight.


 so he waited 2 years and 6 pro fights to start sparring and we are gonna see tremendous results in 2 months??

doubtful on both accounts.


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## ash (Oct 15, 2006)

I have a ton of respect for Cain as well as Brock and I don't see this fight being a sure-thing for either of them. It's beyond me how some folks are so convinced that this is going to be a blowout one way or the other. Sure, it might go that way, but I don't think it's a lock by any means.

I do have two observations though:

1) Cain has turned into a demi-god in some MMA circles, people calling him the next Fedor, etc. He has incredible talent but it's a little early, huh? 

2) Brock's fight with Carwin looked horrible and is very fresh in everyone's mind, but it occurs to me that a lot of people are forgetting what Brock went through to even get to that fight. The whole illness thing, ring rust, inability to even train for a considerable amount of time, the pressure he was putting on himself to have a successful comeback...I believe that all of those factors played a huge part in Brock's relatively poor performance. I say "poor performance" but still recognize that he is the first person to even survive a round with Carwin. I firmly believe that we saw the worst Brock in the last fight, and expect that we will see a totally different kind of fighter in the Cain fight. Better trained, better shape, and, probably most importantly, less nervous.

I'll also point out that the last time a hole in Lesnar's game was exposed - Frank Mir submitting him - he obviously addressed that hole as soon as possible. He's not had the time to fully address his striking, but I am sure he and his trainers know that it's an issue. Hence brining Pat Barry into the camp.


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## AJClark (Sep 19, 2010)

Brock takes him down early and T(KO)s him in the 1st.

Got a bet on that


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## Indestructibl3 (Apr 2, 2009)

Definitely agree with you man.


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## kay_o_ken (Jan 26, 2009)

i think brock stands a decent chance of tko'ing him via ground and pound in the first or maybe even second, but after that i dont think he'll have it in him to keep up with cain

i like both fighters though so im not to concerned over who wins i just want to see a great fight which im sure i will


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## Brutus (May 27, 2007)

I cant wait for the CRAZY Brock hype bubble to explode. This is getting ridicilous, he problaby has the worst standup in the HW division. When two great wrestlers face eachother they cancel eachtohers wrestling, because of Brock size he might get Cain down in the first two rounds but after that this is gonna be a standup fight and Cain is miles better then Brock in the standup. Late submission or tko win for Cain, id be willing to put alot of money on it.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

No way, Cain is to small. Brock will impose his will on Cain and his will be to take him down and punch him in the fact till the ref stops it. Cain is not a bad match up for Brock, a smaller weaker wrestler. How is that a bad match up? Carwin was a horrible match up, that was a big dude with good wrestling that Lesnar wasn't gonna push around with insane power. Cain is not a real threat IMO because I don't think he has the tools to legitimately hurt Brock or impose his will.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Brutus said:


> I cant wait for the CRAZY Brock hype bubble to explode. This is getting ridicilous, he problaby has the worst standup in the HW division. When two great wrestlers face eachother they cancel eachtohers wrestling, because of Brock size he might get Cain down in the first two rounds but after that this is gonna be a standup fight and Cain is miles better then Brock in the standup. Late submission or tko win for Cain, id be willing to put alot of money on it.


Sums it up pretty much :thumbsup:


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

jdun11 said:


> I see this being the worst possible matchup in MMA for Brock.
> *The Velasquez era begins next week*.


Pretty much. Oh and I'll steal that quote and put under my sig!
WAR CAIN!


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

It's not certain that either guy wins, it's when the crucial moments occur that will decide the outcome of the fight. Crucial moment 1 being the first time brock shoots in, in my opinion Cain is slightly less probable to win than Carwin was. This is because both Carwin and Zelasquez so vastly overshadow Brock's striking that the crucial moment when Brock shoots in decides everything, if Brock gets on top, he wins. Cain will be slightly easier to take down than Carwin, because of the vast difference in strength between the two in this fight. If I had to bet I'd take even odds on Cain because I think 51% of the time Cain will stop the takedown as where Carwin probably stopped it 70% of the time.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

I find it truly shocking how so many hardcore MMA fans can get caught up so so easily in the Zuffa hype of a particular fighter. That fighter being Brock Lesnar. Its ridiculous how easy some of you guys get sucked into the hype machine.

"Brock is made of iron he is impossible to KO or TKO because Shane Carwin couldnt".

"Brock is just so big, strong and muscley, he's just too big and strong for the entire HW division".

"Cain has pillow hands, he has no chance against Brock standing".

Honestly, its going to be hilarious come October 24th when you all realise how naive you were for buying into this hype machine in the first place. I cant wait!


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

I'm going with Cain dominating Brock like Shane did, but being able to sustain until the ref has to stop it.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> I find it truly shocking how so many hardcore MMA fans can get caught up so so easily in the Zuffa hype of a particular fighter. That fighter being Brock Lesnar. Its ridiculous how easy some of you guys get sucked into the hype machine.
> 
> "Brock is made of iron he is impossible to KO or TKO because Shane Carwin couldnt".
> 
> ...


works both ways bro, until Cain is the champ, he isn't. I'll wait until Cain fights Brock to decide on how they do against each other.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

rabakill said:


> works both ways bro, until Cain is the champ, he isn't. I'll wait until Cain fights Brock to decide on how they do against each other.


My point was that Brock is a product of Zuffa hype, Cain isnt. Compare Cains hype to Brocks or Jon Jones say. Cains hype comes from fellow fighters who have actually trained and sparred with him, Brocks hype machine mainly stems from Zuffa and because he was a WWE superstar. Different kind of hype.


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## footodors (Aug 26, 2007)

Cain is treading into deep water with a cinder block tied to his waist. It's not going to be pretty. I just hope he doesn't get damaged psychologically too bad from the pounding.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't think Brock will ever go to decision at HW when he has the title. When he loses it to Cain or JDS (and he will) sure, but I sincerely doubt anyone will either:

last 25 minutes against him, or;

not be able to finished a gassed Lesnar after rd 3



As for Cain's cardio, I think he looked about as good in rd 3 vs Kongo as Lesnar did vs Herring. I'm not sure if Cain's pace is considerably faster. Has anyone here seen Cain vs Kongo and Lesnar vs Herring recently enough to compare?


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

khov, Cain threw more strikes in the 3rd round vs Kongo than Lesnar did the entire fight vs Herring.

To say the paces were similar is like saying a chevette is the same speed as a ferrari.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> My point was that Brock is a product of Zuffa hype, Cain isnt. Compare Cains hype to Brocks or Jon Jones say. Cains hype comes from fellow fighters who have actually trained and sparred with him, Brocks hype machine mainly stems from Zuffa and because he was a WWE superstar. Different kind of hype.


Oh I know, but hype is hype, and Cain has yet to win. So many people are writing Brock completely out in this one. I don't even like Brock, but it's not like he's a pushover that is going to quit just because Cain is a tough opponent. I do think it is Brock's biggest fight because if he wins a lot of the hardcore fans will be forced to give him credit even if his standup sucks, I'm just going to wait and see what happens.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

rabakill said:


> Oh I know, but hype is hype, and Cain has yet to win. So many people are writing Brock completely out in this one. I don't even like Brock, but it's not like he's a pushover that is going to quit just because Cain is a tough opponent. I do think it is Brock's biggest fight because if he wins a lot of the hardcore fans will be forced to give him credit even if his standup sucks.


I agree. Cain really doesnt seem to be getting much hype from the online mma community though, where as Brock gets a ridiculous amount of it.

I for one am not saying Brock is a push over. He presents a lot of problems to any fighter put there with his sheer size and athletism. I just feel that Cain really is a prodigy, some thing special, the improvement he shows from each of his fights is truly outstanding. I think he is a born fighter and a born champion, Brock is simply out matched here in terms of skill.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Brock wants to quit, he just needs a stronger reason than a glancing uppercut and one elbow.

Shane had it all there for the picking, Brock was so scared he wasnt even looking at Shane half the time, he was just covering up like a wounded animal.


its funny that this performance has so many saying he has some kind of iron chin.

yea, cuz glancing blows send the average man dancing with the stars all the time, only super Brock could take it.

Even when Brock let Mir up in the 2nd fight and then he ate a big left, he was shook and looked for a horrible set up for a TD and Frank let him off the hook by throwing a flying knee that ended up with him on the bottom.

Cain isnt gonna be doing that nonsense, if he taps big Brocks chin he is just gonna keep tapping away.

I know for sure he reacts to getting hit poorly and panics, this is not the sign of a champion, unless he improves this area drastically i dont see him staying near the top of the division for long.


i have to agree, but Brock wont be a gatekeeper in 2012, he will be retired. Once he figures out he cant be the best, he will move on imo


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## footodors (Aug 26, 2007)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Cain threw more strikes in the 3rd round vs Kongo than Lesnar did the entire fight vs Herring.


That's the definition of pillow hands, right there.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> khov, Cain threw more strikes in the 3rd round vs Kongo than Lesnar did the entire fight vs Herring.
> 
> To say the paces were similar is like saying a chevette is the same speed as a ferrari.


Interesting. I remember Lesnar vs Herring being just on the verge of being stood up almost the entire time as well.


I like the people saying that Lesnar's standup will be so much better. Mir was outstriking him in their second fight and rocked him, Randy was landing first almost every time until the big punch Lesnar landed, Carwin ate him up like it was nothing. 


Brock is not a natural striker, and it will likely take him years to get to even Koscheck level boxing.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

ppl really need to watch the 2nd round of Brock vs Carwin.


Not the sub, not the TD.

Just watch them come out and stand toe to toe.


watch how they both have 0 footwork, 0 head movement and arent creating any angles whatsoever.


Sure, Carwin was gassed, but Brock was slower too and his standup is really, really bad.

Carwin was just so gassed he couldnt do anything when Lesnar ducked under his telegraphed punch for the TD (was good timing tho, i give credit for that).

I mean, it was seriously a joke to watch them stand toe to toe like that. Its like.... wow..... is this seriously the best the HW division has to offer???

i dont believe that.

JDS vs Cain is the best the HW division has to offer and they wont just stand there like 2 zombies with no skills throwing bombs.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

But how bad Brock's striking is won't matter unless he faces a guy like Fabricio Werdum who is a major threat off his back and to be honest that is who is the biggest threat to Lesnar. I firmly believe if that ox wants you on your back and your under 260 pounds your going to your back. He is a massively powerul explosive wrestler who trains with a gym full of elite level wrestlers all of whom are over 250 pounds. That is a huge advantage to him over any fighter with a wrestling base he will ever face.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Toxic said:


> But how bad Brock's striking is won't matter unless he faces a guy like Fabricio Werdum who is a major threat off his back and to be honest that is who is the biggest threat to Lesnar. I firmly believe if that ox wants you on your back and your under 260 pounds your going to your back. He is a massively powerul explosive wrestler who trains with a gym full of elite level wrestlers all of whom are over 250 pounds. That is a huge advantage to him over any fighter with a wrestling base he will ever face.




Randy stuffed his take downs enough so that Brock just stood with him in rd 2. He couldn't get close to taking an un-gassed Carwin down (even though Gonzaga threw him to the ground no problem, and Nog had no problem taking Couture down).


You guys will see that Lesnar's telegraphed bull rush takedowns aren't good for anything when he faces a guy like Cigano: someone with legitimate TDD and the power and speed to make Brock cry.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

what elite MMA wrestlers train at deathclutch besides Brock???

Konrad?? lol watch him fight, calling him elite is a joke.


Chris Tuchscherer?? ummmm, ok??? elite??? 


i just dont see this elite camp, i see a weak camp full of guys that cant prepare you for Cain Velasquez and i see Pat Barry who would actually be a good mimic of Cain if he wasnt grappling retarded.


On the flip side of the coin, as you will see in future primetime episodes. Dan Cormier brings in olympic calibre HW wrestlers to train with Cain.

On top of that, 2009 NCAA HW Champion Mark Ellis is also training at AKA full time.

Difference between AKA and Deathclutch?? AKA actually evovles fighters and doesnt just make wrestlers, wrestle some more....

Brock also made a huge mistake dumping Greg Nelson which im betting is a big reason we saw him regress as a striker.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

UrbanBounca said:


> We saw these when everyone thought Carwin was going to ruin him.
> 
> Cain won't last with Brock, especially after what we've seen with Lesnar surviving Carwin.


Random thoughts on this fight:

1. If Cain tags Brock and stuns him, he won't punch himself out like Carwin did and he will finish the job;

2. Brock's tendency to freeze up when he gets hit won't go away, no matter how much he spars;

3. If it turns into basically a wrestling match, Brock is going to wind up on top and stay on top;

4. Fight won't go the distance;

5. Both of these guys are a little raw and overhyped, imo. Only 13 fights between them - time will tell about both of them.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> I agree. Cain really doesnt seem to be getting much hype from the online mma community though, where as Brock gets a ridiculous amount of it.
> 
> I for one am not saying Brock is a push over. He presents a lot of problems to any fighter put there with his sheer size and athletism. I just feel that Cain really is a prodigy, some thing special, the improvement he shows from each of his fights is truly outstanding. I think he is a born fighter and a born champion, Brock is simply put matched here in terms of skill.


I 100% see where your perception comes from, but this is fighting where all the skills in the world don't matter, winning does. I guess my experience in the business world tainted my views, results are all that matter, I don't care if people say you're the best, until you prove it hype and praise is meaningless.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

rabakill said:


> I 100% see where your perception comes from, but this is fighting where all the skills in the world don't matter, winning does. I guess my experience in the business world tainted my views, results are all that matter, I don't care if people say you're the best, until you prove it hype and praise is meaningless.


I agree, winning is all that matters but if you look at the all of the champs besides Brock, they all have tremendous skillsets:

Frankie Edgar: Hard to believe he is primarily a wrestler. Great wrestling, lightening fast on his feet, great hands and boxing.

GSP: Best take downs and ground control in MMA. On top of that, incredibly well rounded, great striking, great defensive BJJ

Andy: Best striker in MMA in many peoples eyes. Again, on top of that very well rounded.

Shogun: Fantastic, aggressive striking, excellent BJJ, great from his back, very well rounded fighter.

Point is, all of the champs excel greatly in one specific area and then are incredibly well rounded and good in all other areas. There arnt many glaring weaknesses in their skillsets. With Brock, he isnt well rounded and is one dimensional. He may well be champ now, but it wont last, to be a true champ you must be well rounded in all areas.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Point is, all of the champs excel greatly in one specific area and then are incredibly well rounded and good in all other areas. There arnt many glaring weaknesses in their skillsets. With Brock, he isnt well rounded and is one dimensional. He may well be champ now, but it wont last, to be a true champ you must be well rounded in all areas.


I guess we wait and see but I bet it'll be closer than you think.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

rabakill said:


> I guess we wait and see but I bet it'll be closer than you think.


Yep, i cant wait.


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## Hail the Potato (Jul 29, 2010)

Toxic said:


> But how bad Brock's striking is won't matter unless he faces a guy like Fabricio Werdum who is a major threat off his back and to be honest that is who is the biggest threat to Lesnar. *I firmly believe if that ox wants you on your back and your under 260 pounds your going to your back.* He is a massively powerul explosive wrestler who trains with a gym full of elite level wrestlers all of whom are over 250 pounds. That is a huge advantage to him over any fighter with a wrestling base he will ever face.


*Randy was well under 260 lbs when they fought.* 

I would say that Brock has a pretty good chance to take Cain down at least once or twice in the fight, but even then I don't expect him to be able to punish Cain the way he did against Herring and Mir. Cain's wrestling should be good enough to get him off his back. He isn't going to let Brock lay on top of him and throw bombs. Against Cain, I think the best Brock can do on the ground is maintain control.

I see Cain destroying Lesnar everywhere besides the clinch game and TDs.

I'm a big Brock fan myself, but I will be betting on the fact that Lesnar's best (and basically only) strength will be just about nullified by Cain's comparable wrestling skill combined with his speed and well roundedness.

Definitely will be Cain's toughest challenge BY FAR, but I guess that doesnt say much since he has absolutely dominated everyone he's fought so far. I'm thinking Cain finishes the fight in the late rounds via superior conditioning.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

UrbanBounca said:


> We saw these when everyone thought Carwin was going to ruin him.
> 
> Cain won't last with Brock, especially after what we've seen with Lesnar surviving Carwin.


To be fair... Carwin pretty much beat the living shit out of Brock. Its not like people who thought Carwin was going to win were "Crazy". Brock won but it could have been a different story from having anything to a Different Ref in that octagon TO 1 more punch landing TO Carwin having better cardio (Even though i TRULY do think he has good Cardio but just over did it ESPECIALLY for his size. I own a punching bag and beat the thing up daily and ground and pound it daily... doing 1 min of constant GNP will tire me out more then jogging 3-4 miles. And i weigh 160 with a 4 year wrestling background.) So im just saying... someone with his size doing that for basically 5 min and other factors EVEN the most in shape guy can gas.


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## FrodoFraggins (Oct 25, 2009)

I thought that Brock/Carwin was a tossup, and if Carwin had better endurance and was smarter about when to throw and not throw punches he probably would have beaten Brock.

I don't see Cain stuffing all of Brocks takedowns, and I don't see Brock fearing Cains striking like he did Carwins. I just don't see Brock losing this.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Sick of hearing about Couture stuffing brocks takedowns. That was his 4th fight I think. He wasn't exerting himself in fear of gassing in a 5 rounder imo. Brock will take down anyone in the UFC if he wants to. His fight with Shane was after a year layoff. How many great fighters looked like shite after a long layoff? Brock is gonna hulk smash Cain and show dramatic improvement from his last fight. Then the next contender will show up and all the haters will proclaim him the next champ just like every title defense the vanilla gorilla has had:thumbsdown:


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## Blitzz (Apr 13, 2009)

All I see happening in this fight is Lesnar bullrushing Cain into the fence, working him over in the clinch and securing a takedown. Ill go with 2nd round stoppage via kimura for Lesnar.


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## Zafersan (Nov 18, 2008)

I see Viking man Lesnar doing a donkey kong style GNP on Velasquez's face. The fights going to end in the 2nd with Velasquez looking like an inmate trying to escape being butt ****** from Bubba.


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## footodors (Aug 26, 2007)

Zafersan said:


> I see Viking man Lesnar doing a donkey kong style GNP on Velasquez's face. The fights going to end in the 2nd with Velasquez looking like an inmate trying to escape being butt ****** from Bubba.


The man came back from death's door with diverticulitis and still beat Carwin. Brock will be even better in this fight. Poor Cain.

I can't believe how obvious this is, yet people still think "almost ko'd by Kongo, Cain" is actually going to win.


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## LightweightFighter (Jul 10, 2006)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Brock wants to quit, he just needs a stronger reason than a glancing uppercut and one elbow.
> 
> Shane had it all there for the picking, Brock was so scared he wasnt even looking at Shane half the time, he was just covering up like a wounded animal.
> 
> ...


i think brock reacting like that is very normal for his size. i am not sayng that it will help him in a fight but can you imagine anyone ever picking a fight with this massive guy? probably noone ever has and so when someone does dare to try and punch him hes like "wtf, dis never happened before"


Toxic said:


> No way, Cain is to small. Brock will impose his will on Cain and his will be to take him down and punch him in the fact till the ref stops it. Cain is not a bad match up for Brock, a smaller weaker wrestler. How is that a bad match up? Carwin was a horrible match up, that was a big dude with good wrestling that Lesnar wasn't gonna push around with insane power. Cain is not a real threat IMO because I don't think he has the tools to legitimately hurt Brock or impose his will.


i don't think cain is to small for brock. plus, even though brock has great cardio, his intensity doesn't really stay balanced throughout the fight. cain just keeps coming

cain was a junior wrestling national champion. brock was a division 1. but i think that at the very top of the wrestling food chain, the elite wrestlers skills are so close to each other that i think cain will have enough to nullify brock and not let him dictate where the fight is



Mckeever said:


> I find it truly shocking how so many hardcore MMA fans can get caught up so so easily in the Zuffa hype of a particular fighter. That fighter being Brock Lesnar. Its ridiculous how easy some of you guys get sucked into the hype machine.
> 
> "Brock is made of iron he is impossible to KO or TKO because Shane Carwin couldnt".
> 
> ...


why do you call it hype? how is it hype when the guy is beating the best fighters in the world. shane carwin had knockouts ALL in the first round. that is not hype

you can't "hype" someone into beating randy couture and frank mir. it's not like brock doesn't have legitimate wins over top 5 heavyweights. ur just saying anything right now


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Very interesting comments. I'm pretty split with this one. Not a big fan of either, but there's no doubting the obvious with Cain being the technically proficient fighter and Brock being the overwhelmingly powerful one. I can't be surprised anymore if Brock wins a TKO or UD by GNPing Cain. Also can't be surprised if Cain outworks him. What I will be surprised is if someone gets KOed or submitted by the first. 

Thought watching the countdown would give me a better idea. Still leaning towards Brock and I'm not a big fan, just find his his fights entertaining...lolz. Sure his striking is horrid, reacts poorly to being hit, overall rudimentary fighting skills etc...etc. But what are you gonna do when 285-300lbs is on top of you for all five rounds grinding, hitting, and sapping your energy. I've seen him negate a black belt BJJ in Frank Mir virtually twice and withstand a heavy barrage from arguably the most powerful hitter in the HW division. 

I would love to see a five round war of both getting battered though.

1st round - Cain lands cleaner strikes, Brock immediately clinches to wear him down a bit. 10-9 Cain 
2nd round - Brock immediately takes him down. Wash, repeat, recycle. 10-9 Brock
3rd round - " " " " 10 - 9 Brock
4th round - Cain's cardio kicks in and starts to wear on Brock and comes roaring back. Everybody jumps out of their seats. 10-9 Cain
5th round - Anybody's fight. Whoever has the heart to take it...

That would make it worthwhile for anybody watching the PPV.


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## Hail the Potato (Jul 29, 2010)

RustyRenegade said:


> Sick of hearing about Couture stuffing brocks takedowns. That was his 4th fight I think. He wasn't exerting himself in fear of gassing in a 5 rounder imo. Brock will take down anyone in the UFC if he wants to.:thumbsdown:


And this will be his 7th fight. This one is also a 5 rounder and against someone who isnt 45 years old. Not that Randy doesnt have phenomenal conditioning even at 47, but Cain should obviously have the better cardio in this fight.

I can't wait to see what happens.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

some of you lads are blind or dumb or ignorant to say that brock is overrated and he is gonna get smashed, he is the champ he has beaten legitimate contenders, i like cain but he is not winning this title, brock will have a nice long reign as champion as much as all you haters dislike and people like me and budhisten will love it


----------



## JuggNuttz (Oct 5, 2006)

yeah its gonna be a close and tough fight, but i see Brock winning.... anything can happen i know, but i see Brock winning.... tho one person i can see beating Brock right now... is Overeem..... if the UFC sings him and makes that fight.... ima be super worried......


----------



## Uchaaa (Apr 22, 2007)

I could imagine it will be like carwin vs lesnar, only carwin being lesnar and lesnar being cain this time. But no, I think brock will destroy cain simply due to size and power.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Am I the only idiot here who believes it will be Cain taking Brock down?

Is the above so infeasible? I don't think so.

I mean, we seem to have discussed/argued every possibility except Cain taking Brock down. Which either makes me very clever... or most likely a complete noob. Looking at my credits, we can all draw our own conclusions.

"The Ridiculous" indeed! :thumb02:


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> Am I the only idiot here who believes it will be Cain taking Brock down?
> 
> Is the above so infeasible? I don't think so.
> 
> ...


he can take brock down if hes already rocked or he gets striked down


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

I just think that Brocks proportions are seriously top heavy. Hes all chicken leg and ting. Cain is the opposite. Legs like trunks with a smaller body. Am I wrong in suggesting this makes it easier for Cain to takedown Brock? I've never wrestled so can only use my imagination. I thought centre of gravity and leverage meant an awful lot in wrestling. I am completely open to some education.


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> I just think that Brocks proportions are seriously top heavy. Hes all chicken leg and ting. Cain is the opposite. Legs like trunks with a smaller body. Am I wrong in suggesting this makes it easier for Cain to takedown Brock? I've never wrestled so can only use my imagination. I thought centre of gravity and leverage meant an awful lot in wrestling. I am completely open to some education.


nothing is impossible in mma, although i think cain relying on wrestling fore the W is a bad gameplan, ffs brock was div 1 ncaa champ 2 times and he is a beast, the smart way to beat brock is simply to chop him down with leg kicks and wait for openings for the good punch, if he gets rocked then make a move for the TD, i just hope cain isnt reading this haha


----------



## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Cain doesnt need to rock Brock to take him down.


He just needs sick striking to TD transitions that leave Brock off balance.


Good thing Cain is a master of that and his TDs relie on speed, timing and technique, not power.


Believe me, you can use all that top heavy weight against Brock for a TD, he you get him off balance.


Now thats much harder in a pure wrestling match cuz Brock is expecting the TDs.

But in MMA, you can set it up with strikes, something Brock has not looked comfortable handling. Infact, Brock tends to move in a straight line backwards when being hit, which is the worst thing you can do. He also isnt goood moving forward striking either and is flat footed.


Yes, Sookoo, i too could see Cain taking Lesnar down and i dont think he needs to rock him to do it, he just needs to set them up properly.


i think the 3 biggest shocks of this fight for alot of ppl will be....

1) How much faster and agile Cain is on his feet

2) Cain will use leg kicks because Brock fights flat footed and has poor movement while striking and defending strikes

3) Cain will go for some TDs


some ppl think none of those 3 things will happen, im banking on all 3 coming true.


Lesnar better stall like crazy if he wants to keep pace. Im sure Konrad told him that.

If ppl actually watched the 2 matches of Velasquez vs Konrad, Cain took him down in the 1st one and Konrad was penalized for stalling 2x and 2x in the 2nd one...... thats cuz Cains cardio is insane, even in his wrestling days.


btw Konrad was 12-1 when he lost to Cain in wrestling, his only loss coming to Steve Mocco who makes Brocks wrestling creds look like nothing. Then again so does Stephen Neal, the only other great HW from Brocks NCAA era.


The only HW Brock couldnt beat and only won his title after Neal had left NCAA.


If Brock had been from Cains NCAA era, he wouldnt have been a Champion, he wouldnt beat Mocco, and i doubt he would beat Konrad altho that would be closer imo

Brock would have been 3rd or 4th in the nation during Cains era.... same as Cain.


btw whats the diff between the NCAA HW Champion and 4th place???


ill tell you, not Fing much. In Cains case it was a controversial points decision he lost on riding time.... if it had went the other way he would have made teh finals and perhaps won (Konrad beat him in semis and went on to win).

Funny, if that had happened, these wiki reading MMA fans would think Cains wrestling is 10x better, cuz he won the the tourny, when really it wouldnt have been much difference, just a judges decision that didnt go his way.

Not a surprise considering Konrad is from a bigger wrestling school, was ranked higher and had much more hype coming into that match. Cain was at a disadvantage before the match started.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

I said most of what I think in the other thread.

jdun11's endorcment is like the kiss of death, the odds that Brock wins this fight just went up substantially. :thumb02:


----------



## NovaScotia (Oct 9, 2010)

slapshot said:


> I said most of what I think in the other thread.
> 
> jdun11's endorcment is like the kiss of death, the odds that Brock wins this fight just went up substantially. :thumb02:


You beat me to it! 

"Randy will dominate Nog, this is the lock of the year."

But hey, at least someone has the balls to make these predictions! God bless you jdun.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Cain takes the title here. This fight won't go the distance. I got Velasquez winning TKO due to strikes round 3.


----------



## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Cain takes the title here. This fight won't go the distance. I got Velasquez winning TKO due to strikes round 3.


2nd 

I think Cain can very well take down Brock, too.


----------



## Freiermuth (Nov 19, 2006)

If Cain can avoid getting beat up in the 1st round, he will win the fight. Brock has explosiveness so the early part of the fight is going to be his. Brocks advantages will fade by the 2nd round, well not totally, but compared to how little Cain will fade.


----------



## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Freiermuth said:


> If Cain can avoid getting beat up in the 1st round, he will win the fight. Brock has explosiveness so the early part of the fight is going to be his. Brocks advantages will fade by the 2nd round, well not totally, but compared to how little Cain will fade.


Brock can be as explosive as he wants. He's not going to outstrike Cain, and he's not going to out wrestle Cain. I'm giving him about a punchers chance.


----------



## Freiermuth (Nov 19, 2006)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Brock can be as explosive as he wants. He's not going to outstrike Cain, and he's not going to out wrestle Cain. I'm giving him about a punchers chance.


I think he could also really hurt/finish early on if he was able to get any sort of headlock, maybe something like the farmaconda or mattlock scenario haha.


----------



## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

I don't think Cain's going to be getting takedowns until Brock gasses. Cain gassed after two round in his fight against Kongo as well though. If he starts out full speed he'll probably gas again and lose his explosiveness.

As I see it neither really has superior cardio, unless Cain has significantly improved or Brock has dropped off.


----------



## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

Cain got taken down by KONGO and people suddenly think his takedown defense is good enough for Brock Lesnar? lol Ok. 

Brock by one sided TKO; Round 1.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

AlphaDawg said:


> Cain got taken down by KONGO and people suddenly think his takedown defense is good enough for Brock Lesnar? lol Ok.
> 
> Brock by one sided TKO; Round 1.


that wasn't a legit TD at all and he quickly reversed it.


----------



## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

AlphaDawg said:


> Cain got taken down by KONGO and people suddenly think his takedown defense is good enough for Brock Lesnar? lol Ok.
> 
> Brock by one sided TKO; Round 1.


An OLD Randy Couture was able to stop the TD's and get back up.

Brock has a bull rush shot that Carwin was able to stop several times... then he gassed and didn't even attempt to stop it.

Cain will stop the TD's. Mark my words.


----------



## BondageGuy (Oct 9, 2010)

I had to go with brock on this one. Bu either way im hoping for a great fight.


----------



## dario03 (Oct 8, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> An OLD Randy Couture was able to stop the TD's and get back up.
> 
> Brock has a bull rush shot that Carwin was able to stop several times... then he gassed and didn't even attempt to stop it.
> 
> Cain will stop the TD's. Mark my words.


Shane only stopped the "bull rush shot" once. Brock and Shane went down but Brock didn't have ahold of Shane so Shane got back up. Only other failed take down attempts were when Brock got back up and mostly leaned on Carwin then right at the end of the round tried for a td.


----------



## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

actually Shane used a technique called a "whizzer" that stopped the takedown and created the scramble. Cain is very good with the same technique.


----------



## dario03 (Oct 8, 2008)

Yeah, thats what happened, but it only happened once. The other td attempts weren't of the bull rush variety.

If Brock and Shane fought again theres no guarentee that a fresh Shane would always stop Brocks take downs. Yeah he stopped one big shot and what I would only count as one small one but that doesn't prove Shane can stop every shot every time.

Can Cain stop Brocks take downs? I'm Sure he can sometimes but I wouldn't bet on him being able to always stop them. If he gives Brock enough oppurtunities then eventually it will hit the ground. I'm sure Cain could also go for a shot against Brock and sometimes get the take down but I think he wants to keep it standing. I would say his best chance would be to move in and out with quick combos for a while to wear Brock down and then maybe go for the takedown to finish with gnp.


----------



## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Already gave my prediction, but I realized if Cain can in fact negate majority of Brock's takedowns it'll force him to fight on the feet and that would be something...haha. 

Can Cain chop em down...


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

if cain wins then ill change my signature to something saying i love fedor and and anderson silva....but that wont happen


----------



## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

Brock will win this fight by Donkey Kong after Cain makes a mistake by trying to kick Brock. He'll get taken down off a kick and pounded out. 

Brock comes back and beats a guy in Carwin who was completely dominating everyone he faced after over a year layoff. That's impressive regardless of how Brock looked prior to winning. The thing is, he won the fight. People act like he lost for some reason. If anything it showed that Brock is not an easy guy to finish.

Also, comparing Randy's wrestling to Cain or Carwin is apples and oranges. Randy is a Greco Roman wrestler while Cain and Carwin are freestyle wrestlers like Brock. That's a pretty big difference. I know it's crazy for some of you to think about, but not all wrestling is the same. Greco relies on body and hip control for takedowns while freestyle mainly relies on double and single legs. If you watch the way the Randy fight played out most of the time was spent against the fence with RANDY failing to get Brock down, not really the other way around. IMO anyway, Greco translates better to MMA where a lot of clinching is involved especially when there is a cage.


----------



## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Brock *WILL* get a takedown, and that is all he needs to finish a fight.


----------



## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

DropKick said:


> Brock will win this fight by Donkey Kong after Cain makes a mistake by trying to kick Brock. He'll get taken down off a kick and pounded out.
> 
> Brock comes back and beats a guy in Carwin who was completely dominating everyone he faced after over a year layoff. That's impressive regardless of how Brock looked prior to winning. The thing is, he won the fight. People act like he lost for some reason. If anything it showed that Brock is not an easy guy to finish.


I think it proved Brock has massive forearms that work perfectly as a shield and that Carwin is an idiot for punching himself out.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

I get that Cain has an outstandingly, legit chance at beating Brock, but "abused" is a bit much.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Brock is gonna look like Zulu vs Fedor, book it.  when ppl get a wiff of the true speed and technique difference they will be like "Wtf was i thinking??"


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## BadTrip (Dec 31, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> Brock is not a natural striker, and it will likely take him years to get to even Koscheck level boxing.


Are you implying that Koscheck has decent boxing? :laugh:


heh... +rep for dissin'g Koscheck. :thumb03:


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Brock is gonna look like Zulu vs Fedor, book it.  when ppl get a wiff of the true speed and technique difference they will be like "Wtf was i thinking??"


We need a sig bet, although I'm not 100% certain how they work because I've never done one. I think if Brock wins, you have to have an I love Brock sig or graphic or something and if Cain wins, i have to do the same thing for Cain.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

but u do love Cain. lol, and i think deep down you know it.


He is a wrestlers wrestler. Pure technique, blinding speed and crazy cardio. As a wrestling fan, im sure you enjoy watching him fight.


On the other hand, having a Brock sig would go against everything i stand for lol


i rather bet with somebody that really, really thinks Cain sucks and really, really would hate to have a sig of him 


btw, Cain is in his true prime and not on roids 

if you want to bet credits or $ tho, let me know.

Brock is a great wrestler. Just not a great MMA practitioner, it will be evident that Cain is and thats the biggest difference between them, as they are both great wrestlers.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

lol, have you seen my creds? If MMAForum charged rent in creds, I'd be evicted.


----------



## Wookie (Jul 20, 2008)

I'm not a fan of Brock, but I really don't see him getting abused in this fight. Although I really would like to see Cain win this fight I don't think he will totally dominate Brock due to his size and strength.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

Brock has a huge strength, size and reach advantage over Cain.

All this talk about Cain's superior cardio only holds up if he is fighting an opponent of comparable size, which he is not.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)




----------



## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

BobbyCooper said:


> I also had Lesnar winning against Carwin Urban.
> 
> Cain is so much better in every aspect of fighting. The only real disadvantage he has is his size, but everyone who saw what an old Randy was able to do against Lesnar, will know that Cain can do the same just 10 times better.
> 
> And if even if Cain can't put him away, I do believe that he could win every single round to a dominant decision.. cause he will just keep coming.


In Lesnar's defense, the Couture/Lesnar fight was almost two years ago. We've all heard Lesnar's trainers saying he's picked up the sport light-years ahead of anyone else.

I can't agree that Cain has better wrestling, either.



Brutus said:


> I cant wait for the CRAZY Brock hype bubble to explode. This is getting ridicilous, he problaby has the worst standup in the HW division. When two great wrestlers face eachother *they cancel eachtohers wrestling*, because of Brock size he might get Cain down in the first two rounds but after that this is gonna be a standup fight and Cain is miles better then Brock in the standup. Late submission or tko win for Cain, id be willing to put alot of money on it.


You're thinking too much like this is all on paper. What do you mean? Do you honestly believe that because they're both good wrestlers, that neither of them will get a TD?

Crazy.



Mckeever said:


> I find it truly shocking how so many hardcore MMA fans can get caught up so so easily in the Zuffa hype of a particular fighter. That fighter being Brock Lesnar. Its ridiculous how easy some of you guys get sucked into the hype machine.
> 
> "Brock is made of iron he is impossible to KO or TKO because Shane Carwin couldnt".
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, Lesnar has been hyped almost as much as Liddell, but when all is said and done, Lesnar _has_ proven himself. He took a beating against Carwin, and still capitalized.

Believe me, I'm not counting Cain out at all. Cain is a good HW, and it should be an excellent fight. Personally, I want Lesnar to pull it off, but I won't be surprised if Cain does. :thumb02:


----------



## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

I just don't see it, i have brock winning this fight easily. Maybe i'm missing it but what does cain have that will defeat brock. Brock faced a great bbj guy,wrestler, and KO artist and still won. What does cain have ?


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## BondageGuy (Oct 9, 2010)

abused?

sexually? >_>


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

marcthegame said:


> I just don't see it, i have brock winning this fight easily. Maybe i'm missing it but what does cain have that will defeat brock. Brock faced a great bbj guy,wrestler, and KO artist and still won. What does cain have ?


cardio,wrestling and striking


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## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

guy incognito said:


> cardio,wrestling and striking


Are you saying that Cain has better cardio than Lesnar? Lesnar hasn't been out of the second round, so it's subjective.

You can't say that Cain has better wrestling, either.

However, Cain does have better striking.


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

jdun11 said:


> I see this being the worst possible matchup in MMA for Brock. He is fighting a man with great wrestling, INSANE cardio(especially for HW), very dangerous strikes, and his fighting intangibles are unmatched. The guy was born to fight.
> 
> Im not sure how Brock wins this fight. I dont think Brock has a big enough wrestling advantage to rely on winning a decision by getting numerous TD's. He has insane power and could land a big shot, but that is the only shot hes got imo
> 
> ...


I see Brock winning a close fight, but would not be surprised in the slightest if your scenario proved true. I see the same matchup problems that you see. My only reservation is that Brock sees it also, and is not taking Cain lightly. Also, I think the beatdown Carwin gave him will prove a blessing. It showed Brock a gaping weakness he needs to work on. There's no way Brock is running through Cain. Not even a chance. If he does win, it's going to be a war. But something tells me, Brock is working on the right things and preparing correctly. I do think your right, though, Cain poses the worst matchup for Brock yet. The dude is a badass and improving quickly.




UrbanBounca said:


> Are you saying that Cain has better cardio than Lesnar? Lesnar hasn't been out of the second round, so it's subjective.


Lesnar went 3 rounds with HH and finished very strong.


----------



## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

strong as in alot of LnP and only 34 strikes thrown in the 3rd??

then yea, he did.


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> strong as in alot of LnP and only 34 strikes thrown in the 3rd??
> 
> then yea, he did.


:sarcastic09:


----------



## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

guy incognito said:


> cardio,wrestling and striking


I'll give u striking but cardio u don't really understand who lesnar is. He is a freak of nature he has not been past the 3rd round but a atlete like him would not get gas. No way cain is a better wrester, with Brock's size and ncaa division one background he takes it.


----------



## Buhler (Oct 2, 2010)

After the beating Carwin gave Lesnar he should've definitely worked more on his back, and if he hasn't, well then he doesnt deserve to be champ anymore.

But theres no way that Brock's had time to work his striking to the level that Cain's is at, so I see this fight being mostly Brock going for TDs and using his size + weight + monster strength to his advantage. If not, he's going to get wrecked in the standup.


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Buhler said:


> After the beating Carwin gave Lesnar he should've definitely worked more on his back, and if he hasn't, well then he doesnt deserve to be champ anymore.
> 
> But theres no way that Brock's had time to work his striking to the level that Cain's is at, so I see this fight being mostly Brock going for TDs and using his size + weight + monster strength to his advantage. If not, he's going to get wrecked in the standup.


I'm not going to say that Lesnar will outstrike Cain, but let's not forget Lesnar outstruck Mir (1st bout), HH and Couture. And he's one of the few to ever stop Couture via strikes. Let's also not forget the Carwin fight was Brock's first bout since his illness, and ring rust is a real issue.


----------



## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...Excellent poll. Very good insight members...:thumbsup:
Cain has the tools to abuse Brock but he has to consistently do it swiftly, stick to the gameplan without fail, certainly avoid getting taken down and drag Brock into deep water with his superior cardio. Indeed- we all saw Carwin blast the poop out of Lesnar and he survived that massive onslaught to come back and win. Cain has to do accumulative damage quickly. Brock is going to be in the best shape of his career. If Brock gets his hands on Cain and rams home a quick, powerful takedown, Cain will have to defend the those lunchboxes slamming into him. The fight will certainly be more of Cain's biggest test than Brock's...


----------



## anth brown (Apr 27, 2008)

i have to admit, im a brock fan & someone who thought he would walk this, but after listening to the comments & re-watching some fights, i am now 50/50...


----------



## R1WARRIOR (Sep 21, 2010)

What is sad is that Brock is the champion only because he's a huge roids and hormones creation, he's so much bigger and stronger than all the contenders. Carwin, JDS, Cain etc are much better fighters than him, they have so much more skills than Lesnar it's not even funny. Look at how Carwin destroyed him and abused him in the first round. Second round Carwin just didn't fight for the reason we know. Don't get me wrong i still think that Lesnar is an amazing athlete and i know that he train harder than most fighters, but he doesn't win because he's good, and we all know how he got that big and that strong, i think it's sad for the sport. I hope Cain will find a way to win this fight.


----------



## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgkC9F8OeWU&feature=player_embedded


damn, not allowed to show cooler sparring vids i have 


thats a very small clip of Cain Velasquez sparring with Lyoto Machida. Sick, sick stuff, the longer ones are much better but taken down  Cain sparring with top guys is something else, a real eye opener.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> I just don't see it, i have brock winning this fight easily. Maybe i'm missing it but what does cain have that will defeat brock. Brock faced a great bbj guy,wrestler, and KO artist and still won. *What does cain have ?*


Everything!



marcthegame said:


> I'll give u striking but cardio u don't really understand who lesnar is. He is a freak of nature he has not been past the 3rd round but a atlete like him would not get gas. No way cain is a better wrester, with Brock's size and ncaa division one background he takes it.


Cain is also a Division I Wrestler just like Brock. But Cain is not that long out of College than Brock. I have to give the advantage to Cain here, just because of the timeframe.



E Lit Er Ate said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgkC9F8OeWU&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> damn, not alizioed to show cooler sparring vids i have
> ...


Was it an eye opener because he was able to make it through the first minute??  or was it because Lyoto toyed with little Cain? ;D

But Awesome find man! Please somehow find the other ones ones again ray02: 

Jon's sneaky smiling is just ahhhhhh.......


----------



## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXftpGd92oM

Observations - 

+ Brock's punching looks compact, accurate and powerful.
+ He is blocking and countering.
+ Better use of head movement.

- He puts his hands down, has a shrug then starts again... boxing basics, don't put your hands down, stick to the pads/opponent like glue.

I like Lesnar and I think he is genuine and has a lot of potential on top of how good he is already, but for me, this fight next week will determine if he could do with a more varied training camp.

Observations - 

+ Brock's punching looks compact, accurate and powerful.
+ He is blocking and countering.
+ Better use of head movement.

- He puts his hands down, has a shrug then starts again... boxing basics, don't put your hands down, stick to the pads/opponent like glue.

I like Lesnar and I think he is genuine and has a lot of potential on top of how good he is already, but for me, this fight next week will determine if he could do with a more varied training camp.

I think Cain has the skills to beat Brock, but I think the result of this fight will depend on how confident Lesnar is in his hands and how Cain deals with the weight difference.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgkC9F8OeWU&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> damn, not alizioed to show cooler sparring vids i have
> ...


More, i need more.


----------



## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

i wont ruin the other sparring vids i have for you bobby, once i get my other laptop back ill try n post altho they arent youtube vids, they vids made my staff and members of AKA.

I definitely have Cain sparring with....


Brett Rogers
Dan Cormier
Mark Ellis
Machida
Andrei Arvolski 


i used to have more, but one of my laptops got stolen on a plane last year 


i wont ruin the other Machida sparring for you, Bobby, ill just say that Cain and him work hard on TDs and TDD at one point and its very interesting.


I will also say that Machida worked on his TDs vs Cain quite a bit...... which is def interesting..... if i were Rampage i would be wary of the TDs, Machida is getting much more comfortable taking down ppl and controlling them.


Gotta respect guys that go out of there way to learn things, this is why Machida is a top guy and will continue to be.


I also think its a wicked idea that instead of bringing ppl to you like say Lesnar does, you go to them.

Believe me, when you are in somebody elses gym, they go at you HARD and give you no mercy, cuz you are in a way violating their home and they dont wanna be embarrassed in front of their team and coaches.

Machida has been put thru the ringer lately and altho im a huge Rampage fan, i just cant see a way for Rampage to beat him now......

he is still evovling.


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

SM33 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXftpGd92oM
> 
> 
> Observations -
> ...


What Lesnar needs more than anything is to get beaten up a bit more. Its all very well improving his skills, but the most obvious problems are that he reacts badly to getting hit. Is anybody in his camp giving him a beating? Is anybody even capable? I bet not. Take a dude like Fitch. He can go in with Cain and push himself against a monster. Get used to the power and pain. Whos the equivalent for Lesnar? GodZilla?? He needs to find dudes MUCH better than him and feel some proper pain.

As if any of the feckers he trains with is gonna try and put a beating on him. He pays them all! They all wanna keep their jobs.

EDIT


> Believe me, when you are in somebody elses gym, they go at you HARD and give you no mercy, cuz you are in a way violating their home and they dont wanna be embarrassed in front of their team and coaches.


Exactly what I'm saying Ate.


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

R1WARRIOR said:


> What is sad is that Brock is the champion only because he's a huge roids and hormones creation, he's so much bigger and stronger than all the contenders. Carwin, JDS, Cain etc are much better fighters than him, they have so much more skills than Lesnar it's not even funny. Look at how Carwin destroyed him and abused him in the first round. Second round Carwin just didn't fight for the reason we know. Don't get me wrong i still think that Lesnar is an amazing athlete and i know that he train harder than most fighters, but he doesn't win because he's good, and we all know how he got that big and that strong, i think it's sad for the sport. I hope Cain will find a way to win this fight.


Sounds like you have some inside information. Let's hear your sources. How do you know Lesnar is on roids and Valasquez, JDS and Carwin aren't?


----------



## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

lesnar may not be on roids now, no way of knowing.


he was surely on roids when he was in the WWE, just show some pics of him then and now, he was so jacked up then, his muscles didnt hang, he was bigger and much more cut.


He was on roids.


Carwin took roids too, he may still now.


JDS i guess its possible, i see no reason to be that suspicious but i guess you never know and he is a muscular guy.

Cain has the build of somebody who doesnt use PEDs, i would be shocked if he did. Midaswell tell me Fedor does too. Sad thing is, a guy like David Ortiz was caught using PEDs in baseball and i would have never of thought he did either with his build.


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> lesnar may not be on roids now, no way of knowing.
> 
> 
> he was surely on roids when he was in the WWE, just show some pics of him then and now, he was so jacked up then, his muscles didnt hang, he was bigger and much more cut.
> ...


Cain looks a lot more ripped the Sonnen. Frankly, I believe mma guys are on roids.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

R1WARRIOR said:


> What is sad is that Brock is the champion only because he's a huge roids and hormones creation, he's so much bigger and stronger than all the contenders. Carwin, JDS, Cain etc are much better fighters than him, they have so much more skills than Lesnar it's not even funny. Look at how Carwin destroyed him and abused him in the first round. Second round Carwin just didn't fight for the reason we know. Don't get me wrong i still think that Lesnar is an amazing athlete and i know that he train harder than most fighters, but he doesn't win because he's good, and we all know how he got that big and that strong, i think it's sad for the sport. I hope Cain will find a way to win this fight.


I think you sound very uninformed and bias. Carwin has much more dirt on him than Brock when it comes to roids and thats not a opinion thats a fact. 

I dont care how many roids Brock consumed during his acting career in the WWE its not relevant. He's not on roids now and there is no proof he is. 

Do some ped's have a residual effect that lasts after you quit taking them? Yes, absolutely thats why fighters continue to use them and just cycle off in time to still pass a UA. However none of them are going to provide any benefit years after they have been taken. 

You say they all have more skill than Brock but be honest the skills they have interest you more because none of them have a better ground game and they all have better striking IMO its not hard to see people just hate Brock.


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Brock will do to Cain what Butterbean does to twinkies. Complete and utter DESTRUCTION!!!

Ha-ha, in all seriousness, I'll be rooting for Brock, but I expect Cain to put up one hell of a fight. I originally thought Brock would take this easy, and while he still very well might, it's more than likely Cain will be a tough test for Brock, especially if he can duplicate everything Randy was successfully able to do. Should be a grand fight.


----------



## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Calminian said:


> Cain looks a lot more ripped the Sonnen. Frankly, I believe mma guys are on roids.


 ??? Cain has more body fat than Sonnen.


He also doesnt break out in bacne like Sonnen seems to do.....


its a shame if most guys are on it but i dont believe its all of them.


Altho it does make your head and hands bigger........ Cain has a massive head but his hands arent that big.


Brock and Carwin??? Yes and super yes.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> ??? Cain has more body fat than Sonnen.
> 
> 
> He also doesnt break out in bacne like Sonnen seems to do.....
> ...


Now your just making shit up. I have never heard anyone claim steroids effect head size.


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Now your just making shit up. I have never heard anyone claim steroids effect head size.


I was going to say, sheesh, I'd never heard that either. :confused02: Steroids foster muscle growth, but they're not going to build the huge frame Lesnar has. Sonnen can shoot up everyday for years and he's not going become Lesnar. And frankly Lesnar doesn't look anymore ripped than any other fighter. I look at Carwin and Overeem and even Mir and something just seems fishy. I don't get that with Lesnar. I'm sure it's been a part of his past. And the idea that Cain has never touched the stuff seems a stretch as well. 

To me this is just sour grapes from Lesnar haters.


----------



## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> but u do love Cain. lol, and i think deep down you know it.
> 
> 
> He is a wrestlers wrestler. Pure technique, blinding speed and crazy cardio. As a wrestling fan, im sure you enjoy watching him fight.
> ...


Alright, Zuffa read my post and has backed me some creds, lol. 

Everything you've got on Cain?


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

VolcomX311 said:


> Alright, Zuffa read my post and has backed me some creds, lol.
> 
> Everything you've got on Cain?


 yea, if you want to have no creds again you should bet them all on Lesnar.

Im not sure how to bet with you, but we are doing the odds, right?? it would be foolish to bet credits straight up when i can get w/e the odds are, last i saw Cain was 1.45 to 1.


fools bet, my friend  the fighter who should be a big fav is the underdog, for the last time in his career perhaps, at least the last time in the forseeable future.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> yea, if you want to have no creds again you should bet them all on Lesnar.
> 
> Im not sure how to bet with you, but we are doing the odds, right?? it would be foolish to bet credits straight up when i can get w/e the odds are, last i saw Cain was 1.45 to 1.
> 
> ...


I have two theories on the outcome. I don't believe this upcoming Brock is the best Brock that we'll see (win or lose), Brock is a greener fighter and in my opinion and has greater room to grow. Will he fulfill that potential, I don't know, but ultimately, he is a green fighter that has not nearly reached his peak. Same argument can go for Cain. He's young, relatively green and has room to grow as well. If Cain wins, I think he'll fight an improved version of Brock if/when they meet again, as well will Cain also be an improved version of himself. Clearly, it is my biased at this point, that Brock's peak will exceed Cain's peak as a fighter in the end. As far as technical MMA talent, I think Cain is "closer" to his peak then Brock is, in my opinion of course. Win or lose this month, I do see Brock at the top and ultimatley dominating with a heavier iron fist down the line. Either as reigning champ or returning champ.

My money at this point is on Brock. I can certainly see on paper and in various theoretical speculations, how Cain has the on-paper tools to simply pepper Brock with strikes, perhaps remain out of his TD red zone or land his own TD's once Brock is worn out and either get a decison win, or a later round TKO. Hell, I think Cain has the ability to TD Brock fresh, because Cain is better at setting up TD's behind strikes. Brock losing is not a far fetched outcome for me and is a little too likely for my comfort. My X-factor favoring Brock, isn't based on his techincal talent, as I favor Cain in techinical talent, but I feel Cain will be surprised and shocked by Brock's size, speed, strength combination. Granted, Cain has wrestled guys in college that were Brock's size & athleticism, I get that. I'm aware of the Cain was a dominate wreslter in a more competitive era then when Brock was in college argument and I even believe Cain has more effective "MMA wrestling" in terms of setting up and stance. On paper, Cain is looking really good. However, I just don't think he's going to be able to handle Brock's X-factor. I get that Brock's TD's are projected like a summer block buster, Cain winning makes more sense to me objecitvely, but I'm still on Brock's side, I think his X-factor is a unique one, so we'll see :thumbsup:

and yes, we both need help figuring how to bet each other and we'll do odds and what not.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

cool, lol you prob know more ppl around here then me so i guess you can find out how we can do it?? lol

as far the future projections, i thnk Cain has showed us quicker growth as an overall fighter on a fight to fight basis, i think he is more committed to MMA, with a better camp, younger, hungrier (For $ and respect, which Brock has plenty of both already) and has the mobility and versality to become one of the greatest ever.

Not to cause an arguement but i see none of that in Brock. He is a great athlete and wrestler but it will take him years and years to become just a decent striker and he is already what, 33??


Ill make another bet with you when Cain beats Brock. Brock will retire before he ever gets a title shot again. Once he realizes how far off he is, the motivation will evaporate.

That combined with his likelyhood to have to face Carwin again and the likelyhood he will lose aswell.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Ill make another bet with you when Cain beats Brock. Brock will retire before he ever gets a title shot again. Once he realizes how far off he is, the motivation will evaporate.
> 
> That combined with his likelyhood to have to face Carwin again and the likelyhood he will lose aswell.


LOL, wow, that's brutal. Socrates couldn't debate well enough to create a middle ground between you and I on this point. That bet will be hard to make due to the obscure timing, but I'll own up to something, somehow if that's the case. Maybe I'll have to ban myself, lol. 

We have two weeks to figure out how to bet. I'll let you know once I figure it out (and vice versa).


----------



## Gyser (Oct 13, 2009)

My theory is Bearded Brock = Brock win, Shaved Brock = Cain win.

Simple as people... simple as.


----------



## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

I can't wait for this fight. Cain is going to completely school Brock while I laugh and drink to it. Than I'm bringing back up every single one of these threads 


(or if somehow I'm incredibly wrong, I'll neg rep some people and hide for a couple weeks with my tail between my legs)


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

If any one has the "x-factor" out of the two fighters, its definitely Cain.


----------



## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

The Cain hype is both understandable as well as good for the sport. There's a lot of legitimate and well founded support for Cain--he's a top 3 guy in the HW division.

Having said that, you can't give up 25 lbs. of lean mass, 3" of height, 4" of reach, and a huge strength advantage and call it in favor of Cain on paper. 

Cain is legit, but many fighters refuse to move up in weight for a legitimate reason: they'll get squashed. This is why GSP so far has refused to move up. We saw what happened to Sherk when he tried to move up. As well as to Penn. 

GSP, Sherk and Penn are great fighters, but they've either moved up and gotten smashed, or in GSP's case, has refused altogether. 

With Cain giving up 25 lbs, he's literally one weight division lower, or slightly more. This will make a difference.


----------



## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

R1WARRIOR said:


> What is sad is that Brock is the champion only because he's a huge roids and hormones creation, he's so much bigger and stronger than all the contenders. Carwin, JDS, Cain etc are much better fighters than him, they have so much more skills than Lesnar it's not even funny. Look at how Carwin destroyed him and abused him in the first round. Second round Carwin just didn't fight for the reason we know. Don't get me wrong i still think that Lesnar is an amazing athlete and i know that he train harder than most fighters, but he doesn't win because he's good, and we all know how he got that big and that strong, i think it's sad for the sport. I hope Cain will find a way to win this fight.


Do you care to explain the detail behind your reasoning? If I'm not mistaken, Carwin was questioned only last month about his receiving of 'roids. Lesnar is good at using his strength, which is wrestling. He's only had one fight go to decision.

Not to mention, Lesnar and Carwin are nearly the same size.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

michelangelo said:


> The Cain hype is both understandable as well as good for the sport. There's a lot of legitimate and well founded support for Cain--he's a top 3 guy in the HW division.
> 
> Having said that, you can't give up 25 lbs. of lean mass, 3" of height, 4" of reach, and a huge strength advantage and call it in favor of Cain on paper.
> 
> ...


This he is in for a world of hurt. Skill wise Cain takes it but you can't disregard that fact that Lesnar is the far bigger and stronger man.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I don't know why guys, but I always compare Cain to the young Fedor..

but how do we know that Lesnar is really that much stronger? :confused02: is the difference really that big, that it could make a key factor?


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

there are weight classes cuz when you are smaller gaining some weight doesnt make your cardio go way down, aswell as your mobility and technique.


Thats why they have such a high weight difference in almost every combat sport for HWs , from NCAA wreestling, Olmypic wrestling, Boxing and kickboxing.


Its NOTHING like GSP vs Penn or whatever comparison you want to make because when you are a HW, every pound you gain is a double edged sword.


No 265ers have the cardio, mobility and technique of a 230-240 pounder. I dont care what kind of hype and myth you wanna say, we have yet to see these guys.




The funniest part to me is this, if Cain had faced Randy when he had the belt, would you same ppl saying "oh brock too big, brock too strong" be saying the same thing about Cain vs Randy??


cuz the weight difference is literally the same between Cain and Randy as it is between Cain and Lesnar.

All nonsense you guys are talking, making the size seem alot bigger and more important than it really is.


----------



## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

It's rumored that Brock was benching 700 lbs. and squatting 900 in his WWE days. Perhaps that's an exaggeration, but it's not that difficult to see how strong he is. 

He picked up and pressed "Big Show" a 500 lb. man over his head.

Even Shane Carwin stated he's never felt anything like Brock's ground 'n pound. 

Brock missed with a punch to Couture and still dropped and finished him. 

It's impossible to duplicate that type of strength, with or without a 25 lb. weight advantage.


----------



## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

First of all, Cain is 245, not 230 or 240.

Second, Lesnar is not only one of the fastest guys in the HW division, he's one of the fastest guys in sports, period. He runs a 4.75 40. That is unheard of in a man his size, and is comparable to the 4.6 40's that top level running backs in the NFL run. 

Third, Lesnar is DI HW wrestling champion, suggesting his wrestling technique is very good. 

Fourth, no one claimed that the difference in strength between Cain and Couture is equivalent to the difference in strength between Cain and Lesnar. 

The strength gap between Cain and Lesnar is *much greater* than between Cain and Couture, IMO. 

On top of that, Cain must contend with Brock's superior height and reach, along with his superior strength and speed. 

Finally, any cardio advantage is negated by Cain's having to exert a much much higher level of energy competing against a much bigger and stronger opponent than he's ever faced.

Brock is no Cheik Kongo, a 235 lber with a thin waist. I won't rub it in by mentioning that a thin waisted 235 lber with only a couple of weeks to prepare dropped Cain twice. Woops, I guess I did. 



E Lit Er Ate said:


> there are weight classes cuz when you are smaller gaining some weight doesnt make your cardio go way down, aswell as your mobility and technique.
> 
> 
> Thats why they have such a high weight difference in almost every combat sport for HWs , from NCAA wreestling, Olmypic wrestling, Boxing and kickboxing.
> ...


----------



## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

BobbyCooper said:


> I don't know why guys, but I always compare Cain to the young Fedor..
> 
> but how do we know that Lesnar is really that much stronger? :confused02: is the difference really that big, that it could make a key factor?


That is the million dollar question and no amount of debating & speculating could realitistically quantify it until they meet :thumbsup:


----------



## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

michelangelo said:


> First of all, Cain is 245, not 230 or 240.
> 
> Second, no one claimed that the difference in strength between Cain and Couture is equivalent to the difference in strength between Cain and Lesnar.
> 
> The strength gap between Cain and Lesnar is much greater than between Cain and Couture, IMO.


 how does that make sense??


Randy was holding his own in the clinch vs Lesnar and Lesnar had so much trouble trying to take him down, that he was forced to stand and bang, which obv is NEVER his game plan, esp vs a guy like Randy who is slick with his standup in comparison (which is sad to say cuz Randys standup isnt that good).

Really, that is just speculation and baseless speculation at that.


BTW i wasnt talking about strength difference, i was talking about size.

Cain is bigger to Randy like Brock is bigger to Cain.

Yet if Cain fought Randy back then (or even now) i bet ppl wouldnt say "well Randy is better but Cain will win cuz of size, its such a HUGE difference"


it really isnt for a HW. 20-25 pounds is nothing for a HW.

Cain literally went up against two of the greatest HW wrestlers in NCAA history and never got ragdolled or pinned and both those guys are 285ers who cut weight for NCAA.


So you telling me that Brock is so much stronger than Steve Mocco or Cole Konrad in grappling strength??


i call that a falsehood, a big one.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

OK, lay your money down.

We'll find out on the 23rd.


----------



## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Now your just making shit up. I have never heard anyone claim steroids effect head size.





Calminian said:


> I was going to say, sheesh, I'd never heard that either. :confused02: Steroids foster muscle growth, but they're not going to build the huge frame Lesnar has. Sonnen can shoot up everyday for years and he's not going become Lesnar. And frankly Lesnar doesn't look anymore ripped than any other fighter. I look at Carwin and Overeem and even Mir and something just seems fishy. I don't get that with Lesnar. I'm sure it's been a part of his past. And the idea that Cain has never touched the stuff seems a stretch as well.
> 
> To me this is just sour grapes from Lesnar haters.





E Lit Er Ate said:


> ??? Cain has more body fat than Sonnen.
> 
> 
> He also doesnt break out in bacne like Sonnen seems to do.....
> ...





PheelGoodInc said:


> I can't wait for this fight. Cain is going to completely school Brock while I laugh and drink to it. Than I'm bringing back up every single one of these threads
> 
> 
> (or if somehow I'm incredibly wrong, I'll neg rep some people and hide for a couple weeks with my tail between my legs)


Steroids don't effect your head size. But HGH can.


----------



## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> Am I the only idiot here who believes it will be Cain taking Brock down?
> 
> Is the above so infeasible? I don't think so.
> 
> ...


I don't think there is a person on this planet who could take Lesnar down and keep him down with pure wrestling. The only way Lesnar is on his back is with a punch, imo.


----------



## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

leifdawg said:


> Steroids don't effect your head size. But HGH can.


Yep, it sure can. Here is an excerpt from a medical article about signs and symptoms of HGH abuse:

_Acromegaly is the name of a disease that is caused by too much HGH in the body. It is the overgrowth of the bones and connective tissue - especially in the face and the extremeties - causing an enlarged jaw and a thick, protruding brow. Hands and feet become abnormally large and internal organs grow, including the heart, which is irreversible._


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

michelangelo said:


> It's rumored that Brock was benching 700 lbs. and squatting 900 in his WWE days. Perhaps that's an exaggeration, but it's not that difficult to see how strong he is.
> 
> He picked up and pressed "Big Show" a 500 lb. man over his head.
> 
> ...


Those figures are from Kurt Angle who actually said for Lesnar that wasn't "serious weight training." I am sure its some what an exaggeration but I would take that to mean at the least that Brock was not maxed out there. 



I would also like to point out that despite the fact that Cain is bigger than Couture I would question how big the difference in strength due to the fact that Couture has been tested and has freakishly low levels of lactic acid in his mucsles and unlike normal people his seem to actually drop as he excercises. Just like Lesnar, Randy is also somewhat of an athletic abnormality. 

And Elite R Ate the fact that you keep going back to Lesnar and Couture in the clinch is getting lame. Lesnar hardly looked like he was struggling with Randy and when Randy used tecnique Lesnar just donkey konged on through. Thing is in the clinch Randy would likely IMO have his way with Cain. Cain is a better wrestler than Randy but few in MMA want to go into a clinch with Randy. Couture was an olympic level Greco Roman wrestler and one of if not the best dirty boxers in the game. There are maybe, maybe a handful of fighters in MMA who are on the level to compete with Couture in the clinch. I have watched the fight with Randy and Brock a dozen times and really don't see where Lesnar had this massive struggle with Couture because I just don't see it. 

Lesnar has a gym full of big wreslers including Kole Konrad who you keep going on and on about how Cain was right up with. Thing is Lesnar tosses these elite level wrestlers in a gym were being an all american makes you the bottom guy on the food chain. Randy Couture has spent time helping Lesnar improve as a fighter and has said Lesnar is a far better fighter than he was when Couture fought him. 

Honestly unless Cain has somehow became some top secret BJJ phenom I just don't see how he is supposed to cause this big upset.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

I dont even think Brock is the strongest HW out there. I think Overeem is stronger. I have yet to see Brock "ragdoll" any of his opponents. Overeem tossed Brett Rodgers to the ground like he was just a toy. Jon Bones Jones tossed around Hamill like he was a toy. I havnt seen any of that kind of rag dolling from lesnar.

If Brock Lensar really did live up the hype and was this "freak of nature" everyone calls him, he should of been rag dolling Randy around the cage like he was a toy. A 46 year old LHW for crying out loud. Jon Bones Jones would rag doll randy around like it was nothing, thats a man who is freakishly strong.


----------



## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

its funny that ppl think weight lifting strength = grappling strength


and its funnier that ppl think track speed = cage speed


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

Dude, chill with the OCD. You have half the posts in this thread alone. 

I'm surprised you're able to walk out of the bathroom without wiping your ass 50X before you leave.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

michelangelo said:


> Dude, chill with the OCD. You have half the posts in this thread alone.
> 
> I'm surprised you're able to walk out of the bathroom without wiping your ass 50X before you leave.


Some times i have to wipe my ass 50 times before i leave because the shit gets stuck on my balls.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Shane Carwins twitter responce to 

"Brock Lesnar or Cain Velasquez and how do they get it done?"

"Cain with speed and kickboxing, he will take out Lesnars legs then attack"


dont shoot the messanger. Another "stupid" fighter who thinks a much faster, technical wrestler with good kicks could utilize them.

Oh noz, but the book says you cant kick vs wrestlers!!!


like Fedor said "F the book!!!" (he didnt actually say that but i bet if i spoke russian he would cuz thats how he fights)

you have seen Cain fight, he doesnt fight other ppls fights, he makes you fight his fight, thats what his style is all about, enforcing a pace you cannot tolerate and gradually breaking you. The kicks are a big part of that and i think it would be a horrible mistake to not use them, that is fighting Lesnars fight.

Cain wont fear the TD, he doesnt live in myth world where one TD = you lose. If it happens, he will work from there but he will make Lesnar react to him, he wont be reacting to Lesnar, he is the faster fighter and it will show.

think Aldo vs Faber or Alves vs Kos..... you dont need to stop kicking cuz a guy is a wrestler, esp when your a wrestler too.... in those cases, Aldo and Alves arent even wrestlers, they just had very obvious striking and footwork speed advantages, just like Cain.

and seriously, i shit alot so im wiping alot. you dont even wanna know.


----------



## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Shane Carwins twitter responce to
> 
> "Brock Lesnar or Cain Velasquez and how do they get it done?"
> 
> ...


 A more accurate comparison would be Aldo vs Kos. 

Aldo has a chance but don't bet the farm.


----------



## BondageGuy (Oct 9, 2010)

oldfan said:


> A more accurate comparison would be Aldo vs Kos.
> 
> Aldo has a chance but don't bet the farm.


isnt kos way bigger than aldo?


----------



## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

I see Brock taking this handily. I think Cain's wrestling is overrated and he is not even close to being strong enough to take Brock down. Standing, he has a good punchers chance, but I don't see Brock standing with him for long, he will go for the takedown and pound out Cain IMHO.


----------



## BondageGuy (Oct 9, 2010)

cain's hands are kinda like pillows, he needs to hit you 20 times on the button to put you down.


----------



## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

After this fight, I expect to see threads on weight classes and how we need more, because "guys like Lesnar are just too big" for guys like Velasquez.

And yes, I think Brock will win, part;ly because Jdun picked against him.

Sorry buddy, had to go there


----------



## Ares Caesar (Aug 13, 2008)

BondageGuy said:


> isnt kos way bigger than aldo?


Thats kind of his point. Brock is massive by comparison to Cain. Wait till you see them in the weigh-ins, you'll see just how much the size difference will actually play in.

I just like how everyone thinks because they didnt show Brock doing any "art" training during the UFC Brock vs Cain primetime that they think he's not actually doing BJJ and Striking... they're doing it, its just that his camp isnt allowing that footage to get out. They have the ability to allow what footage gets used and what doesnt, and I'm sure they dont even allow the cameras to be in the room while they're doing any actual "art" training. Brock lifting weights reveals nothing. Cain on the other hand has shown some of his training, and it's stuff you can guarantee that Brocks camp is watching and deciphering just where the holes are for takedowns.

Cain has a chance, a punchers chance, but thats it. He will get taken down, and I highly doubt he's better than Mir off his back, and considering Mir couldnt get up, Cain wont either... only way he gets up is when the ref stops it, or the bell rings. 

If Cain cant KO/TKO Brock in the first 2 minutes he has no chance, because he'll get taken down, and then its over, his face is about to be hamburger.


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

i think its more crazy that people believe cain is a better wrestler than brock, im sorry but wheres his ncaa div 1 championships and his huge body, i love cain but insult brock in cains name and i will bury him under a bridge


----------



## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> i think its more crazy that people believe cain is a better wrestler than brock, im sorry but wheres his ncaa div 1 championships and his huge body, i love cain but insult brock in cains name and i will bury him under a bridge


Cain's extremely undersized (45-60lbs) and slightly quicker, and has shown like a 2 round gas tank, and weak GnP - just a more technical striker with KO power to KO guys like Big Nog. that 45-60 lbs isn't all muscle/power either, he probably has a very similar body mass index to Brock. Shorter reach, more of a factor when you consider height differential. And has he been tested, really? Washed up Big Nog and a mediocre display of round dominance, weak gnp, and decent ground control over Kongo.

Brock is pretty quick himself. He does retarded stuff like flying knees, but he's never really gassed in a fight, just got the living hell beat out of him for a round by the UFC's most powerful striker. On the contrary, both his endurance over multiple rounds compared to Cain and his recovery has been amazing. Brock KOed Couture, had plenty of quasi-take downs. Beat the hell out of Mir. And took Carwin's best and survived.

JDS can present a problem to Brock if he displays outstanding takedown defense, if not he'll be out like Mir. Even if JDS fighting like the "great MMA boxer" he's made out to be, trading jabs to the head, he's not going to like Brock's jabs when they land, or combos if Brock learns to throw them, add the legitimate hard-snapping takedowns of Brock to ground control to GnP. 

I don't even like Brock, but both Cain and JDS have bigger weaknesses than strengths compared to Brock.

I just want to see Dana White not lowball Carwin for a title rematch, he's old as $hit (relatively).... and the best MMA HW (IMO), give Carwin a clear path against two elite opponents - two fights away from contendership. If he's fighting Big Nog, it'll probably be quick work. He can fight Roy Nelson after he's rehabbed up.


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

MrObjective said:


> Cain's extremely undersized (45-60lbs) and slightly quicker, and has shown like a 2 round gas tank, and weak GnP - just a more technical striker with KO power to KO guys like Big Nog. that 45-60 lbs isn't all muscle/power either, he probably has a very similar body mass index to Brock. Shorter reach, more of a factor when you consider height differential. And has he been tested, really? Washed up Big Nog and a mediocre display of round dominance, weak gnp, and decent ground control over Kongo.
> 
> Brock is pretty quick himself. He does retarded stuff like flying knees, but he's never really gassed in a fight, just got the living hell beat out of him for a round by the UFC's most powerful striker. On the contrary, both his endurance over multiple rounds compared to Cain and his recovery has been amazing. Brock KOed Couture, had plenty of quasi-take downs. Beat the hell out of Mir. And took Carwin's best and survived.
> 
> ...


mr dear sir that analogy has earned you a positive rep


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Ares Caesar said:


> Thats kind of his point. Brock is massive by comparison to Cain. Wait till you see them in the weigh-ins, you'll see just how much the size difference will actually play in.
> 
> I just like how everyone thinks because they didnt show Brock doing any "art" training during the UFC Brock vs Cain primetime that they think he's not actually doing BJJ and Striking... they're doing it, its just that his camp isnt allowing that footage to get out. They have the ability to allow what footage gets used and what doesnt, and I'm sure they dont even allow the cameras to be in the room while they're doing any actual "art" training. Brock lifting weights reveals nothing. Cain on the other hand has shown some of his training, and it's stuff you can guarantee that Brocks camp is watching and deciphering just where the holes are for takedowns.
> 
> ...


just like the even smaller randy couture was unable to stop the TD from brock and was subsequently pounded into oblivion because he was unable to get out from underneath him.....oh thats right, it never happened.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

MrObjective said:


> Cain's extremely undersized (45-60lbs) and slightly quicker, and has shown like a 2 round gas tank, and weak GnP - just a more technical striker with KO power to KO guys like Big Nog. that 45-60 lbs isn't all muscle/power either, he probably has a very similar body mass index to Brock. Shorter reach, more of a factor when you consider height differential. And has he been tested, really? Washed up Big Nog and a mediocre display of round dominance, weak gnp, and decent ground control over Kongo.
> 
> Brock is pretty quick himself. He does retarded stuff like flying knees, but he's never really gassed in a fight, just got the living hell beat out of him for a round by the UFC's most powerful striker. On the contrary, both his endurance over multiple rounds compared to Cain and his recovery has been amazing. Brock KOed Couture, had plenty of quasi-take downs. Beat the hell out of Mir. And took Carwin's best and survived.
> 
> ...


the shots kongo hit cain with where more flush then the ones brock took from carwin.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

MrObjective said:


> Cain's extremely undersized (45-60lbs) and slightly quicker, and has shown like a 2 round gas tank, and weak GnP - just a more technical striker with KO power to KO guys like Big Nog. that 45-60 lbs isn't all muscle/power either, he probably has a very similar body mass index to Brock. Shorter reach, more of a factor when you consider height differential. And has he been tested, really? Washed up Big Nog and a mediocre display of round dominance, weak gnp, and decent ground control over Kongo.
> 
> Brock is pretty quick himself. He does retarded stuff like flying knees, but he's never really gassed in a fight, just got the living hell beat out of him for a round by the UFC's most powerful striker. On the contrary, both his endurance over multiple rounds compared to Cain and his recovery has been amazing. Brock KOed Couture, had plenty of quasi-take downs. Beat the hell out of Mir. And took Carwin's best and survived.
> 
> ...


This has to be one of the worst posts ive seen on this forum, congratulations. "Shane Carwin the best MMA HW". Unreal.

For the dude a few pages back who said Cain was "struggling" to take down Ben Rothwell:










Yea, he seemed to be having real difficulties taking big ben down there....


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

a bit weird that JDS, Nog and Carwin are all picking Cain??

they dont know about size like you experts do, apparently.

somebody better send them a memo letting them know "Brock IZ big!! Brock smash" or they may lose $ betting on the better fighter aswell.


btw, nice GIF Mckeev, oh yea, what a struggle Cain had completely dominanting Rothwell and making him look like a child when he is a huge 265 pound HW.....


he struggled so bad he almost had a 10-7 round and it was so lobsided the ref had to warn him between rounds that he has to defend himself....

struggling!!!! but not Cain, Rothwell.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)




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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

michelangelo said:


> It's rumored that Brock was benching 700 lbs. and squatting 900 in his WWE days. Perhaps that's an exaggeration, but it's not that difficult to see how strong he is.
> 
> He picked up and pressed "Big Show" a 500 lb. man over his head.
> 
> ...


carwin never got ground and pounded by brock


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

The Breakdown:

Probably one of the most common statements that comes to mind is "Cain has never faced someone the size of Lesnar before"

Well, lets break down the stats:

Cain Velasquez
6'1'' 240 77'' reach. 
Lesnar
6'3'' 265 81'' reach

In Cain's career, he has faced 4 fighters 6'3' or 6'4'' in his Strikeforce Debut, and against Jake O Brien, Chieck Kongo, Ben Rothwell and Big Nog. He has also faced the reach of Kongo's 82inch reach advantage and Rothwell's 80'' reach advantage. Rothwell and Jeremiah Constant were those that weighed in at the maximum 265lbs for HW.

Rothwell was handled with ease by Velasquez. 










he Result: Cain has faced people of similar size, similar stature and reach that have given Cain a great amount of experience to deal with someone like Lesnar. Yes, it is true that Lesnar cuts from a massive amount as much as 300lbs, but his recent medical issues probably keeps him under that weight.

Wrestling:

Cain is said to have never faced such a monster in Brock due to Brocks amazing wrestling. Yes, Brock was a Div 1 champion...in the year 2000...10 years ago. Cain, like Brock was a Junior College Champ, and Cain didn't make 1st place in D1, but he was facing wrestlers like Cole Konrad who had a superior team in Arizona. Cain did admirably in that he was probably the top dawg out of ASU, fighting the 285 division where he is naturally 240. 

Cain has been fighting at a higher level more recently, and still shows great wrestling. The double leg that is allegedly unstoppable by Lesnar will be stuffed by Cain. Carwin, Mr Laxotactolasosis was able to adjust to Lesnar's TD...and he was a D2 champ.










Cain has better hip control than Carwin. In his fight with Jake O'Brian, we are able to see his instant reaction to a TD:











As you can see, Cain instantly moves his hips to avoid the TD, and gets control.

What would happen is Lesnar got Cain on the ground? Well...the entirety of Cain's experience on his back can be seen in the following gif:










Cain Knows how to scramble, knows how to get in a better position, and can get to a good spot on the cage to get up quickly. Lesnar had some difficulty with Carwin...pretty much waiting till carwin got tired to get up, and had a lil help from the cage to get Couture off him. It was less technique and more strength to get up from those two.

Grappling:

Lesnar submitted a corpse from a gassed out Carwin. His only credentials in having good BJJ/Grappling is from his coach. Believe it or not, after 17 months training BJJ, Cain won a No-Gi Blue Belt tournament in 2007.

Actual experience vs the word of a coach. Cain takes this one.

Striking:

Brock's striking...well, he can hit pads really well. Cain is #2 in striking accuracy in the UFC. 2nd only to Anderson Silva. Yes, a large majority of those strike undoubtedly came from that over 250 strikes that Kongo had fall on his face in that 3 rnd decision, but he is very accurate.

Brock's power shots are more a result of his size than good technique. His footwork is turrble, his armshots are turrble.

Cain has good power and like I said, they're very accurate:


















Training Camp:

So who is training with better fighters?

Deathclutch is strictly HWs. Chris Tuchscherer is one of Brock's better training partners...and that's not saying much as he's been 1-2 in the UFC losing to gatekeepers. Cole Konrad..pretty soon to be the Bellator HW Champ is pretty much a blanket with very little ability outside wrestling. Lesnar's main MMA coach is his Fromer Wrestling coach from U of Minnesota. Who is training his striking?

AKA is one of the top mma camps in the business. Cain trains with some absolute monsters at HW such as Daniel Cormier, who won 3 fights in 30 days to get two HW belts in two diff organizations. He also trains with other HWs such as Mike Kyle (who now fights at LHW) and UFC vets Christian Wellisch and Paul Buentello. In addition to HW, he trains with Jon Fitch and Josh Koscheck. One has to agree that the better camp may not be exclusively HWs, but the amount of top tier fighters in AKA brings a level to Cain's training that Brock can't match.






So what more can be said? Cain is the better fighter, with tons more cardio, better recovery time, and has the Mexican Chin to take whatever Brock can throw at him.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Brock also brought Randy Couture and Pat Barry in to his camp. Those 2 provide far more than Kyle, Wellisch and Buentello. He also has Jon Madsen in his camp, who's now 3-0 in the UFC. Brock isn't training purely with his former Wrestling coach. He's working his boxing with Peter Welch, they brought Pat Barry in to assist with Kickboxing, Rodrigo Medeiros does the BJJ training, Erik Paulson does some MMA/submission wrestling stuff with them and then Marty Morgan's the head trainer. It's a seriously good camp Brock's got going. Might not have the names that AKA has, but it's perfectly suited to him, and perfect for his evolution as a Mixed Martial artist.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Barry is only at his camp for a few weeks and Randy was only there for 2 weeks along time ago....


make it sound like his camp is better than AKA??

when Jon Madsen is your best training partner, how could you not win??

or is it slow ass Cole Konrad and his wrestling skills and not much else??


how is it perfect for his evolution to train full time with guys who are only good at what he is already good at, wrestling??


AKA is better for evovling, look at how they made wrestlers into good strikers etc.


Brocks camp is lacklustre at best. Those dinosaurs all suck except for Brock himself.

and when Randy is your biggest training partner, the guy who got smoked by Big Nog standing.,..... i dont think its helping your standup vs a guy who smoked Big Nog like it was a joke standing.

or inexperienced and grapple retarded Pat Barry.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

AKA is undoubtedly the better MMA gym, but Death Clutch is not as bad as you're making out. Brock's still training with high level guys, and has some seriously good coaches on hand. Not sure what Randy being out-struck by Nog, and Barry being a bad grappler has to do with things either. Randy was there to help Brock with his Greco Roman, and his clinch work; and Pat there to help out with the Kickboxing. Both very good guys to get in to assist those areas of Brock's game. 

The training partners might not be the best, but they must be doing something right, or Brock wouldn't have 'em there. It's the level of coaching that's impressive to me. Rodrigo Medeiros is a high level BJJ world champion, Peter Welch is a very good Boxing coach, Erik Paulson works a lot with Josh Barnett at CSW, so Brock has put together a very solid team of coaches and training partners.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

i do agree with the level of coaching Brock has being very high.


I think he made a big mistake dumping Greg Nelson.


I also think if you are going to spend that kind of $, you better bring in better guys to train with or at least go around traveling to other gyms to get more training.


There is only so much you can do with guys like Konrad and Madsen on a full time basis.

Also i dont like the idea of footing the bill for everybody, you dont know if you are getting alot of yes men or are ppl really going hard at you??

you know for sure in more traditional gyms that ppl will go hard at you, especially if you are a guest which is why i really respect what Machida is doing at AKA. Its guaranteed those guys will show him no mercy they spar super hard all the time.

Meanwhile Brock has said he didnt spar much in the last year because of the illness and is just sparring alot more now in preparation for Cain.


I will be very surprised if only a few months sparring has Lesnar capable of standing for prolonged periods with Cain. I will eat alot of crow if that happens.


btw i dont get this mentality thats its better that he trains with all HWs??


HWs usually have much less skill and speed, the best way to learn the tecniques is actually training with smaller guys and not using your size and power but trying to outspeed and out technique them in striking. Its a tough thing to do.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Cole Konrad is undefeated and looks like a monster in the cage. The only reason I can think of to try and discredit him is if you dont like fighters that actively use wrestling to win fights....

The guy has some AMAZING wrestling I wont be surprised to see the UFC pick him up after a few more W's.

Honestly though Brock dose bring in some of the bigger names to help him train.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Konrad looks like a beast?? lol


have you watched his fights?? he is an LnP specialist and slow as all hell.

His standup makes Lesnars look revolutionary.

I guess you are impressed by his many LnP decisions over sub par competition, i am not.

i give him little chance of being a top HW. Cormier is more impressive than him and i dont think he will crack the top 5 either.


lol but seriously, Cole is going nowhere in the fast lane. I wish Mocco or Neal would have gone MMA, they would have made an impact, not horrible slow wrestlers like Konrad.


Ppl dont get it, the reason guys like Rashad and Fitch have great MMA wrestlers despite medicore "creds" is because their styles suit MMA alot more then slow plodding wrestlers. Ones like Konrad.

What most ppl are missing is that Cains wrestling style is perfect for MMA, its fast paced and technical which leaves him alot of room to grow as his striking grows.


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## BondageGuy (Oct 9, 2010)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Konrad looks like a beast?? lol
> 
> 
> have you watched his fights?? he is an LnP specialist and slow as all hell.
> ...


cormier who?


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

BondageGuy said:


> cormier who?


 Dan Cormier, USA Olympic wrestler and undefeated MMA prospect who trains at AKA with Cain Velasquez.

He would smash Konrad.

NCAA creds are nothing compared to international and all Konrad has is wrestling, and even then these cans he is facing are often getting up from under him and winning the standup.

This is not me saying Cormier is the next great thing, as i said, i doubt he cracks the top 5 in his life. He will have to LnP to beat any top guys but it will be hard to get a big fanbase doing that for him or Konrad.


Its funny you think i hate wrestlers?? Cain is my fav fighter.... obv...... last i checked he is a wrestler, just not a boring LnP wrestler, he keeps moving forward, keeps attacking and never lets the pressure up, thats the kind of wrestler i enjoy watching.

Part of me wants Konrad in the UFC just so Cain can smash him to pieces for that BS riding time decision he lost in the NCAA tourny. A loss that seems to have ppl thinking Konrad is so much better than Cain in pure wrestling even tho Cain beat him in a non controversial decision earlier that year aswell.


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## BondageGuy (Oct 9, 2010)

ahh just checked him out. looks like he might have some srs potential. but he looks a little chunky and short. and he needs to fight some big names that are floating about outside the ufc then he could get in pretty easy imo.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

yea, difference between him and Konrad is, Cormier is finishing fights impressively.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> The Breakdown:
> 
> Probably one of the most common statements that comes to mind is "Cain has never faced someone the size of Lesnar before"
> 
> ...


Very nice and costlier post Mc :thumbsup:

I'm getting more and more confident about Cain, because of eye openers like this one. I would like to see the equivalent to your post, from a Brock believer!


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

the best part of that post, besides it being well thought out and written is the sick Nas song during the Cain highlights!!!


man, its got me all pumped for the beatdown!!


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## BondageGuy (Oct 9, 2010)

it'll be that much sweeter when brock smashes cain ;D


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

BondageGuy said:


> it'll be that much sweeter when brock smashes cain ;D


... that gag sucked. Can you go back to saying funny shit please?


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## BondageGuy (Oct 9, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> ... that gag sucked. Can you go back to saying funny shit please?


nope.

i used up my quota of funny for the day 

im pretty much gonna blow the rest of the day


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

i think this match will be win-win for everyone, dana can have his fist ever undefeated mexican champ or the lesnar train that he's relied on for a while keeps rolling, for me if lesnar loses at least my 2nd favourite heavyweight is champ but i'd much rather brock continue his reign, either way im ordering 121 and parking myself right in front of my LCD


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Cole Konrad is 26 years old and just started MMA so its a given he needs to work on his stand up and he knows that. I dont think that changes how well he dose what he dose. Ive seen his fights and he looks very good. He manhandles fighters with as much or more technique as power. 

He's going to need some time to develop but I think he's defiantly a up and coming fighter.


Brock doesn't have better training partners but he dose bring in quality coaches to help him train.


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## The_Sandman (Aug 16, 2009)

Lesnar and Velasquez trade punches only to see Velasquez stumble back and get taken to the ground. Unable to defend, Lesnar then begins SMASHING Velasquez in the face..over and over and over and over...

Lesnar by TKO :thumbsup:


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## Wookie (Jul 20, 2008)

slapshot said:


> Cole Konrad is 26 years old and just started MMA so its a given he needs to work on his stand up and he knows that. I dont think that changes how well he dose what he dose. Ive seen his fights and he looks very good. He manhandles fighters with as much or more technique as power.
> 
> He's going to need some time to develop but I think he's defiantly a up and coming fighter.
> 
> ...


Cole Konrad aka the King of LnP! He needs to change his nickname to the Teddy Bear instead of the Polar Bear. Polar Bears at least maul people. Where as Konrad hugs people like a teddy bear.


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## Johnni G (Dec 2, 2009)

UrbanBounca said:


> We saw these when everyone thought Carwin was going to ruin him.
> 
> Cain won't last with Brock, especially after what we've seen with Lesnar surviving Carwin.


That sums it up


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## FrodoFraggins (Oct 25, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Now your just making shit up. I have never heard anyone claim steroids effect head size.


they use it as an argument against Barry Bonds all the time. I have no idea on the legitimacy of it. But Barry Bonds did get a much bigger head (literally) after juicing.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

FrodoFraggins said:


> they use it as an argument against Barry Bonds all the time. I have no idea on the legitimacy of it. But Barry Bonds did get a much bigger head (literally) after juicing.


I saw pictures of Brock back in college. Same big head. :confused02:


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## JWP (Jun 4, 2007)

i agree with this. especially coz of the short time between fights for brock

he will have undoubtedly worked hard on his striking during this time, which should bridge the gap somewhat

but his wrestling needs to be sharp to use it to win. cain has probably been training for brock for along time now, i think he will be more ready for this fight than brock


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

Sorry, While Id never say Cain's Wrestling ability was "bad" in any sense, it is NOWHERE NEAR Lesnar's Wrestling Ability. This fight MIGHT get to the 2nd Round, but Cain ain't gonna like how it ends. Lesnar by Submission.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Lesnar by what kind've submission?


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

raymel1 said:


> Sorry, While Id never say Cain's Wrestling ability was "bad" in any sense, it is NOWHERE NEAR Lesnar's Wrestling Ability. This fight MIGHT get to the 2nd Round, but Cain ain't gonna like how it ends. Lesnar by Submission.


LMAO! Lesnar hits one basic sub on a guy who gave up, and now he's predicted to win fights like he's some jitz fighter? I swear sometimes the shit I read on these forums....

And Cains wrestling will fully nullify Brock's. Although it may not be up to par with Brock's, it's good enough to at least stop the TD's. If he does get taken down he will get back up. Mark my words.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

brocks wrestling is vastly overrated.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

raymel1 said:


> Sorry, While Id never say Cain's Wrestling ability was "bad" in any sense, it is NOWHERE NEAR Lesnar's Wrestling Ability. This fight MIGHT get to the 2nd Round, but Cain ain't gonna like how it ends. Lesnar by Submission.


Unsubstantiated post of the year right here.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> Unsubstantiated post of the year right here.


no complaints here, i cant believe people think cain has better wrestling


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

I was suppose to have a bet with Elite but he got banned :confused02:


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

It all comes down to Brock's power versus Cain's skills.

I assure you, though, that Brock will try to pull the same submission on Cain that he did on Carwin.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

guy incognito said:


> brocks wrestling is vastly overrated.


Brock's "MMA wrestling" is overrated. His TD's are more bull charge then technique and he isn't good at setting up a truly wiley TD behind feinted strikes. However, on the ground, he's solid. He scrambles like a pro, knows how to nullify from the top and he displayed a text book ground escape against Carwin. I think Cain will be able to stuff a projected bull charge most of the time, but historically, Brock only needs to get ontop once. That said, Brock has never faced another wrestler of Cain's cailber in MMA, so it's hard to state anything in stone.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> I was suppose to have a bet with Elite but he got banned :confused02:


I would bet with ya Volcom^^ 

I still get 150k back from the Cheick Kongo fight. 

So you decide?


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

BobbyCooper said:


> I would bet with ya Volcom^^
> 
> I still get 150k back from the Cheick Kongo fight.
> 
> So you decide?


YOU HAVE A BET :thumb02: So how are we doing this? I'm in for however much you want, as long as its not more then what I have :confused05:

and no tapping into the MMA spirits and getting a precognition answer like you do.

I'm watching you....


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

double post, sorry.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

PheelGoodInc said:


> LMAO! Lesnar hits one basic sub on a guy who gave up, and now he's predicted to win fights like he's some jitz fighter? I swear sometimes the shit I read on these forums....
> 
> And Cains wrestling will fully nullify Brock's. Although it may not be up to par with Brock's, it's good enough to at least stop the TD's. *If he does get taken down he will get back up. Mark my words*.


Marked. saved. ready (just in case) to throw back in your face.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> YOU HAVE A BET :thumb02: So how are we doing this? I'm in for however much you want, as long as its not more then what I have :confused05:
> 
> and no tapping into the MMA spirits and getting a precognition answer like you do.
> 
> I'm watching you....


Alright  We do a 150k bet I would say.. cause you know, I don't have much more then that. 

So if Brock wins I pay you 150k and if Cain, you know the deal^^

even odds for you, because it's you^^ ;D


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

BobbyCooper said:


> Alright  We do a 150k bet I would say.. cause you know, I don't have much more then that.
> 
> So if Brock wins I pay you 150k and if Cain, you know the deal^^
> 
> even odds for you, because it's you^^ ;D


It's a bet!


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

oldfan said:


> Marked. saved. ready (just in case) to throw back in your face.


Ditto 

I'm going too be the biggest gloating troll on this forum in 4 days, and I'll love every second of it


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Ditto
> 
> I'm going too be the biggest gloating troll on this forum in 4 days, and I'll love every second of it


Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Ditto
> 
> I'm going too be the biggest gloating troll on this forum in 4 days, and I'll love every second of it


You also said Carwin would be the one to beat him. You should just become a Lesnar fan and be done with it. If oldfan can learn to like him I'm sure you can too:thumbsup:


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> LMAO! Lesnar hits one basic sub on a guy who gave up, and now he's predicted to win fights like he's some jitz fighter? I swear sometimes the shit I read on these forums....
> 
> And Cains wrestling will fully nullify Brock's. Although it may not be up to par with Brock's, it's good enough to at least stop the TD's. If he does get taken down he will get back up. Mark my words.


Go back in time and read what I said would happen in the Carwin vs Lesnar fight.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

RustyRenegade said:


> You also said Carwin would be the one to beat him. You should just become a Lesnar fan and be done with it. If oldfan can learn to like him I'm sure you can too:thumbsup:


I said carwin would likely beat him (which he almost did). I also said even if Brock won against Carwin it still wouldn't prove anything. I also stated that Carwin is very in experienced and that fight proved it. Carwin was the better fighter. Nrock just had more cardio. Cain will win this fight. I wasn't far off on my carwin prediction, and I guarantee I'm not off on this one.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

PheelGoodInc said:


> I said carwin would likely beat him (which he almost did). I also said even if Brock won against Carwin it still wouldn't prove anything. Carwin is very in experienced and that fight proved it. Carwin was the better fighter. brock must had more cardio. Cain will won this fight. I want far off on my carwin prediction, and I guarantee I'm not off on this one.


I'll bet you fifty bucks

And if I win you have to support Brock in every thread mentioning his name too boot. Just for fun.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

RustyRenegade said:


> I'll bet you fifty bucks
> 
> And if I win you have to support Brock in every thread mentioning his name too boot. Just for fun.


LOL. Make the bet $20, and I'm down. I have a paypal. Not that I'm not that confident, I'm just not a big gambler.

No on the Brock support. I hate the guy far too much. No amount of money is worth that.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

RustyRenegade said:


> You also said Carwin would be the one to beat him. You should just become a Lesnar fan and be done with it. If oldfan can learn to like him I'm sure you can too:thumbsup:


haha it's true I was a big Brock...disliker. I pulled for every opponent he's had in the ufc. I was screaming Holy sh*t when Carwin put him down. And again when he got back up. (OK I was screaming holy sh*t the whole fight)

Inch by inch he's pulling me in. With the way he's conducted himself since he got over Mir. Training with Randy was a big plus,Pat Barry too. But, what did it more than anything else was the grin and high five he gave Carwin at the start of round 2. That impressed me more than the win. What a competitor! He didn't know Carwin was done, he just knew he wasn't.

Let go of your hate Pheelgood and ...youknow...feel good . Brock's gonna be champ for awhile. I'll concede Cain has an edge in skills and speed but not as much as you think and not enough.

And JDS won't last as long as Cain does.

I guess with Captain America retiring I'll be cheering for the Hulk now?.....and meathead of course.:thumb02:


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

In that case lets just go five bucks and you have to support him. I'd rather have your support then your money

What oldfan said too


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Ditto
> 
> I'm the biggest troll on this forum, and I'll love every second of it


Edited for truth


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

What pride is there in being a troll?:confused03:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Wow! 8 words and a smiley!raise01:


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok, what are you getting at dude?:confused03:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

seven words this time?:happy01:


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

What are you sixteen?:confused03:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Down to four?


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Are you trying to get me to leave or are you just trying to irritate me?:confused03:


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> Are you trying to get me to leave or are you just trying to irritate me?:confused03:


Must:confused03:you:confused03:end:confused03: every:confused03:sentence:confused03:with :confused03: this?:confused03:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

PheelGoodInc said:


> LOL. Make the bet $20, and I'm down. I have a paypal. Not that I'm not that confident, I'm just not a big gambler.
> 
> No on the Brock support. I hate the guy far too much. No amount of money is worth that.


ill bet you 20 bucks, not that i need the money since ill be winning a lot ona multi this weekend


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

PheelGoodInc said:


> LOL. Make the bet $20, and I'm down. I have a paypal. Not that I'm not that confident, I'm just not a big gambler.
> 
> No on the Brock support. I hate the guy far too much. No amount of money is worth that.


In time PheelGood, don't fight the force, in time....


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

jdun11 said:


> I had Lesnar beating Carwin, because Carwin had never been pushed.
> 
> Cain is more well rounded than Carwin, and has MUCH MUCH better cardio. Carwin basically walked into the 2nd round and rolled over. Cain just doesnt stop. Dude is a special fighter, SPECIAL!



Ur not a Brock fan :thumbsup:


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Machida Karate said:


> Ur not a Brock fan :thumbsup:


LOL. Sigmund Freud would have called that guys post an ID post. However, I actually agree, Cain is special, but I think Brock is mo specialer.


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

Cain's gonna be special alright, a special fred kinda special:cool04:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=984532


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok, why are we comparing Cain to Fred?:confused05:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

because he's special like you? :confused05:


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

kantowrestler said:


> Ok, why are we comparing Cain to Fred?:confused05:


Because, that is the kind of "SPECIAL" Cain is going to be about 10pm saturday night. lol:thumb02:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

PheelGoodInc said:


> LMAO! Lesnar hits one basic sub on a guy who gave up, and now he's predicted to win fights like he's some jitz fighter? I swear sometimes the shit I read on these forums....
> 
> And Cains wrestling will fully nullify Brock's. Although it may not be up to par with Brock's, it's good enough to at least stop the TD's. *If he does get taken down he will get back up. Mark my words.*


Lucky guess


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Wow talk about an accurate prediction by OP. Now I wanna see how well Cain takes some bombs from Carwin.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

I knew he was going to get made look like a beaten step child by Cain. I thought i put points on CAIN but now im thinking that i maybe forgot to actually do it. Anyone with a crazy amount of V Bookie points want to send me like 20k for a pos rep?? And just in general being a "good" poster if i say so myself 

Also.. i think Carwin might be a bigger challenge for Cain then Brock was. I still think Cain will dominate by taking Carwin down with relative ease and pounding him out from there. I predict Cain to get a TKO or Armbar victory near the end of Round 3.

JDS is also going to get mauled by Cain. I want to see Kongo vs JDS for some reason. I think JDS wont be able to put Cain away but Cain can put JDS away. Even if JDS does rock cain i think that he will get taken down at will. Also JDS didnt look so fresh to me in the 3rd round with Roy Nelson while Cain will make him work even harder and itl be a 5 round fight. I predict a pretty smooth Unanimous victory by Cain after the second round passes. :thumbsup:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

the only man that can beat cain is the man who just was destroyed by him, brock needs to get into a great camp like jacksons camp and once the striking and cardios there we will have a real contest and a real brock


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Brock needs to improve his training, but I'm not sure he needs to completely change his camp. I'd much rather see Brock Lesnar just take 2 months away from Minnesota, go to Holland and train his stand-up at Golden Glory. It's not so much the technique I want him to drill, it's the sparring. Brock Lesnar does not like getting hit, and in the UFC HW division, with these talented wrestlers with heavy hands, that's not good. I don't think Brock is being pushed enough in his camp, I don't think the guys are going at him. Check Jon Madsen's performance against Gilbert Yvel, I'd bet he doesn't go anywhere near that hard on Brock in training, and that's an issue.

Holland would be the perfect place for Brock Lesnar to go, even if it's just for 2 months. Holland, and the big gyms in Holland are famed for their incredibly hard sparring. They don't go anywhere near as hard on bag/mits as they do in sparring, and exposure to that would really help Brock. Going out of his comfort zone to learn and spar hard with guys like Alistair Overeem, Semmy Schilt, Gökhan Saki, Sergei Kharitonov and Errol Zimmerman. Big, strong, powerful dudes that are going to put it on Brock, and hit him in the face. It's the only way he's going to get over that flaw in his game. 2 months getting battered by Alistair Overeem would soon sort him out. It won't happen, but I'd love to see him do it.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

UFC_OWNS said:


> the only man that can beat cain is the man who just was destroyed by him, brock needs to get into a great camp like jacksons camp and once the striking and cardios there we will have a real contest and a real brock


So much stupidity in this post. Its basically saying... once Brock gets better then we see a real fight. Once FRANK MIR gets better he will beat Brock. If Matt Hughes can get better he will beat GSP. See why that is silly?? I also dont see why you think BROCK is the only person that can beat Cain. From what we have seen i think KONGO is more likely to beat Cain then Brock is at this point. Once Kongo moves to a better camp and gets his WRESTLING up to par then we will se a real contest AND a real Kongo... :confused05:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

SideWays222 said:


> So much stupidity in this post. Its basically saying... once Brock gets better then we see a real fight. Once FRANK MIR gets better he will beat Brock. If Matt Hughes can get better he will beat GSP. See why that is silly?? I also dont see why you think BROCK is the only person that can beat Cain. From what we have seen i think KONGO is more likely to beat Cain then Brock is at this point. Once Kongo moves to a better camp and gets his WRESTLING up to par then we will se a real contest AND a real Kongo... :confused05:


well im in no mood for your dribble, that was rambling beyond limit there, im saying brock wasnt the champ for 2 years for no reason and he would be the only one to combat cains wrestling, you forget at the start of the match brock actually had the upper hand for about 1 and a half minutes, had he been better with strikes he would no doubt have lasted a good 3 rounds at least, but his punches and defending let him down


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> The Breakdown:
> 
> Probably one of the most common statements that comes to mind is "Cain has never faced someone the size of Lesnar before"
> 
> ...





Mckeever said:


> I find it truly shocking how so many hardcore MMA fans can get caught up so so easily in the Zuffa hype of a particular fighter. That fighter being Brock Lesnar. Its ridiculous how easy some of you guys get sucked into the hype machine.
> 
> "Brock is made of iron he is impossible to KO or TKO because Shane Carwin couldnt".
> 
> ...





Mckeever said:


> I agree. Cain really doesnt seem to be getting much hype from the online mma community though, where as Brock gets a ridiculous amount of it.
> 
> I for one am not saying Brock is a push over. He presents a lot of problems to any fighter put there with his sheer size and athletism. I just feel that Cain really is a prodigy, some thing special, the improvement he shows from each of his fights is truly outstanding. I think he is a born fighter and a born champion, Brock is simply out matched here in terms of skill.


:thumb02: :thumb02:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> :thumb02: :thumb02:


wow your so humble and modest:laugh:


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

UFC_OWNS said:


> wow your so humble and modest:laugh:


Says you. I checked your posts history and every time you got a fight prediction right, easy ones too, like akiyama/bisping, you would brag about it.

You were also running your mouth and made a thread about how you were so sure Lesnar would win. How about you make a new thread saying how you were 110 percent completely wrong.

*"im so confident that brock will win that......
if he doesnt i will give everyone in this thread pos reps and i will let someone make and embarrassing sig that i have to have for a month...... but it wont come to that
__________________"*


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Says you. I checked your posts history and every time you got a fight prediction right, easy ones too, like akiyama/bisping, you would brag about it.
> 
> You were also running your mouth and made a thread about how you were so sure Lesnar would win. How about you make a new thread saying how you were 110 percent completely wrong.
> 
> ...


yeah mate i was just having a lil fun with you relax mate im not josh kosheck calm down


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

UFC_OWNS said:


> well im in no mood for your dribble, that was rambling beyond limit there, im saying brock wasnt the champ for 2 years for no reason and he would be the only one to combat cains wrestling, you forget at the start of the match brock actually had the upper hand for about 1 and a half minutes, had he been better with strikes he would no doubt have lasted a good 3 rounds at least, but his punches and defending let him down


No mood for my dribble?? Well i guess when your constantly wrong, you probably wouldnt be in mood for someone calling you out. Yes you are right... Brock wasnt the champion for NO reason. He was the champion because he was gifted a title shot after LOSING to Frank Mir and beating an over the hill fighter that was never that good Heath Herring. Oh who did he have the title shot again?? Randy Couture(Age 47)... a guy that is naturally a LHW and not a big one at that. Also even though is grossly smaller then Brock, Couture managed to put up a good fight against Brock and didnt even look like he was crazily over powered thanks to Coutures technique. I think we all knew Couture stood little chance in winning that fight, glad he went back down to 205. Then Brock went back to REmatching Frank Mir in a fight where he raped Frank Mir BUT every time Frank Mir fights that seems to be less and less impressive, and honestly Frank Mirs worst matchup seems to be big strong guys that can bully him and dont forget wrestling (Good for Brock). He then went to fight Shane Carwin who is the only guy that can match Brocks size. First round started out with Shane Carwin dropping brock and watching brock in the fetal position. Brock Lesnar looked like a helpless little baby being beaten against the cage. It looked like the ref could have stopped the fight for a good 2 and a half minutes and not a single person would have complained INCLUDING brock. The Ref didnt stop the fight (*Which was a good call* except for the fact that he kept telling Carwin that he was going to stop the fight any second now). Carwin is possibly the only person i have ever seen LOSE a fight because of how bad he is beating the shit out of his opponents. Carwin was sooo exhausted coming into the second round that he couldnt grab the water bottle while sitting in his corner, he had to try and grab is like 3x before actually grabbing it. If he cant grab a water bottle how is he supposed to fight??? Well he isnt. Brock took down a helpless Carwin and submitted him. Brock hardly showed a champions performance in that fight, instead Carwin showed that if you can just cover up and let him(Carwin) swing at you for a round that in the second round he will be too exhausted to stand up. Then we have Brock vs Cain, a fight where Brock cant win by going to the Fetal position and somehow transferring the dmg he is taking to the person dealing it. So what we got is a much smaller fighter laying a beating on the much bigger Wrestler who wasnt able to use his wrestling the way he wanted to. I also think CAIN has much better MMA wrestling and he showed it when he took the much strong/bigger Brock down and started landing some good blows.

So there you go... thats the reason Brock was the champ for 2 years. Il summarize it for you.

1.GIFTED a title shot after a loss and a win against a bad B level fighter.
2. Fought a very old LHW for the title and didn't look as impressive as he should have.
3. Beat Frank Mir, a guy who cannot fight people stronger then him and who has the wrestling talent of a highschooler. The win also looks less and less impressive every time Frank Mir fights.
4. Beat Carwin only because Carwin exhausted himself by beating the crap out of Brock. (Might be the first time iv seen something like that)
5. Cain Valesquez - First "Real" challenge were the FETAL POSITION strategy wasnt likely to work.. Gotta give Brock credit for sticking to the game plan though. Lucky enough CAIN studied Brocks fight with Carwin and found some HOLES in Brocks Fetal Position strategy. Pretty impressive on Cains part because i wasnt sure if anyone was going to find a way to beat it. :thumbsup:

And that my friend is the summary of why Brock was champion for 2 years.

Read the summary if your not going to read the full post in fear of being made look silly.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

SideWays222 said:


> No mood for my dribble?? Well i guess when your constantly wrong, you probably wouldnt be in mood for someone calling you out. Yes you are right... Brock wasnt the champion for NO reason. He was the champion because he was gifted a title shot after LOSING to Frank Mir and beating an over the hill fighter that was never that good Heath Herring. Oh who did he have the title shot again?? Randy Couture(Age 47)... a guy that is naturally a LHW and not a big one at that. Also even though is grossly smaller then Brock, Couture managed to put up a good fight against Brock and didnt even look like he was crazily over powered thanks to Coutures technique. I think we all knew Couture stood little chance in winning that fight, glad he went back down to 205. Then Brock went back to REmatching Frank Mir in a fight where he raped Frank Mir BUT every time Frank Mir fights that seems to be less and less impressive, and honestly Frank Mirs worst matchup seems to be big strong guys that can bully him and dont forget wrestling (Good for Brock). He then went to fight Shane Carwin who is the only guy that can match Brocks size. First round started out with Shane Carwin dropping brock and watching brock in the fetal position. Brock Lesnar looked like a helpless little baby being beaten against the cage. It looked like the ref could have stopped the fight for a good 2 and a half minutes and not a single person would have complained INCLUDING brock. The Ref didnt stop the fight (*Which was a good call* except for the fact that he kept telling Carwin that he was going to stop the fight any second now). Carwin is possibly the only person i have ever seen LOSE a fight because of how bad he is beating the shit out of his opponents. Carwin was sooo exhausted coming into the second round that he couldnt grab the water bottle while sitting in his corner, he had to try and grab is like 3x before actually grabbing it. If he cant grab a water bottle how is he supposed to fight??? Well he isnt. Brock took down a helpless Carwin and submitted him. Brock hardly showed a champions performance in that fight, instead Carwin showed that if you can just cover up and let him(Carwin) swing at you for a round that in the second round he will be too exhausted to stand up. Then we have Brock vs Cain, a fight where Brock cant win by going to the Fetal position and somehow transferring the dmg he is taking to the person dealing it. So what we got is a much smaller fighter laying a beating on the much bigger Wrestler who wasnt able to use his wrestling the way he wanted to. I also think CAIN has much better MMA wrestling and he showed it when he took the much strong/bigger Brock down and started landing some good blows.
> 
> So there you go... thats the reason Brock was the champ for 2 years. Il summarize it for you.
> 
> ...


i actually did read the whole post, its been a frustrating day to say the least, im just one of the few people with the balls to stick up for my fighter when he loses and loses bad, most mma fans turn on their fighter and go for the champ straight away you can hear it in the crowds at ufcs, im pretty much sick of people saying lesnar is a piece of shite and he never should have done mma and he is useless


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Surely if you're dismissing Brock's UFC record, then Cain's isn't that much more impressive? 3 TKO wins over cans; was rocked 3 times, taken down and went to a decision with Kongo; an early stoppage against Rothwell and beat an over the hill, way past it Big Nog. You can dismiss pretty much anyone's record if you over criticise every fighter they've beaten. The fact is, Brock looked awesome against Mir on both ocassions, destroyed Herring, knocked out Randy and battled back from the brink of defeat to submit Carwin. He held the title for a more than decent period of time, and is a legit Top HW. Obviously Cain's the better fighter, but I don't see the need to now dismiss Brock's record before this fight, especially when it was much more impressive than Velasquez's going in. I hate the way people strive so hard to dismiss fighters' records, there's no need for it. Both guys are world class fighters, but it just so happens Velasquez is the better fighter. 'Nuff said.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

UFC_OWNS said:


> i actually did read the whole post, its been a frustrating day to say the least, im just one of the few people with the balls to stick up for my fighter when he loses and loses bad, most mma fans turn on their fighter and go for the champ straight away you can hear it in the crowds at ufcs, im pretty much sick of people saying lesnar is a piece of shite and he never should have done mma and he is useless


Anyone that is calling Brock Lesnar a piece of shit for doing something he loves and actually being good at it, is most likely a piece of shit them self. No reason to turn on your fighter because he lost a fight... that means you were not a real fan to begin with. Brock will be back and possibly better but we need to be realistic and not let our judgment be clouded just because we are a fan. Brock Lesnar will never be able to close the gap in striking between him and Cain. Something in Lesnar just wont allow him to become a good striker. Im not sure if its some mental block, the way he is built, wrong coach... i really dont know BUT Brock just looks extremely awkward when he strikes. He tends to throw out some pretty silly stuff to boot. I also am not sure what they can do to make Brock less afraid of getting punched. No matter how good his technique is, if you are afraid when punches are being thrown at you, you will never be a good striker. He seems to just close his eyes and run in hoping to grab a hold of the person.

In other terms... Saying Brock is the only challenge for Cain AFTER what we saw today is a bit silly. JDS i can already guarantee is a much tougher challenge for Cain then Brock will ever be. On the other hand Brock is a much tougher challenge for Frank Mir then Cain will be. Though Cain is still going to **** Mir.



Danm2501 said:


> Surely if you're dismissing Brock's UFC record, then Cain's isn't that much more impressive? 3 TKO wins over cans; was rocked 3 times, taken down and went to a decision with Kongo; an early stoppage against Rothwell and beat an over the hill, way past it Big Nog. You can dismiss pretty much anyone's record if you over criticise every fighter they've beaten. The fact is, Brock looked awesome against Mir on both ocassions, destroyed Herring, knocked out Randy and battled back from the brink of defeat to submit Carwin. He held the title for a more than decent period of time, and is a legit Top HW. Obviously Cain's the better fighter, but I don't see the need to now dismiss Brock's record before this fight, especially when it was much more impressive than Velasquez's going in. I hate the way people strive so hard to dismiss fighters' records, there's no need for it. Both guys are world class fighters, but it just so happens Velasquez is the better fighter. 'Nuff said.


Dismissing his record?? Im pointing out facts. These statements i made were true THEN and are still true now. Also, Cains Record isnt that impressive... except for the fact that he is undefeated and is relatively new. I can think of plenty of records that are more impressive then Cains ESPECIALLY if i go by only 10 fights or so. Its Cains talent thats impressive and the way he looks in his fights. He looks BETTER every time he fights and he looks like he performs a nearly perfect fight. That is what is so intriguing about Cain... i could care less about his record. If he can continue on this path of destruction for i dunno... 2-3 more years, while fighting 3x a year, that will become an IMPRESSIVE undefeated (Long Term) record.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

SideWays222 said:


> Anyone that is calling Brock Lesnar a piece of shit for doing something he loves and actually being good at it, is most likely a piece of shit them self. No reason to turn on your fighter because he lost a fight... that means you were not a real fan to begin with. Brock will be back and possibly better but we need to be realistic and not let our judgment be clouded just because we are a fan. Brock Lesnar will never be able to close the gap in striking between him and Cain. Something in Lesnar just wont allow him to become a good striker. Im not sure if its some mental block, the way he is built, wrong coach... i really dont know BUT Brock just looks extremely awkward when he strikes. He also tends to throw out some pretty silly stuff. I also am not sure what they can do to make Brock less afraid of getting punched. No matter how good his technique is, if you are afraid when punches are being thrown at you, you will never be a good striker. He seems to just close his eyes and run in hoping to grab a hold of the person.
> 
> In other terms... Saying Brock is the only challenge for Cain AFTER what we saw today is a bit silly. JDS i can already guarantee is a much tougher challenge for Cain then Brock will ever be. On the other hand Brock is a much tougher challenge for Frank Mir then Cain will be. Though Cain is still going to **** Mir.


yep at one point brock through a side ways hammerfist to cain and i think his huge body makes him so awkward and fragile, and yes mma fans are very very fickle with their fighters, they may give him 2 chances at most after that they are nothing to them, lyoto KTFO rashad, i still love rashad, anderson KTFO forrest still love forrest, bj penn lost 2 times to frankie still love bj penn but many people get turned off from them straight away


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

UFC_OWNS said:


> yep at one point brock through a side ways hammerfist to cain and i think his huge body makes him so awkward and fragile, and yes mma fans are very very fickle with their fighters, they may give him 2 chances at most after that they are nothing to them, lyoto KTFO rashad, i still love rashad, anderson KTFO forrest still love forrest, bj penn lost 2 times to frankie still love bj penn but many people get turned off from them straight away


Lol are you talking about when they were standing and brock was against the fence?? Yeah alot of what Brock does while standing just looks extremely awkward. The way he bull rushed Cain in the beginning looked awkward. The knees he was throwing looked awkward AND scary in some way just because they were connected to a behemoth lol. The strikes he threw while backed up against the fence were funny. He even looks extremely awkward when rocked... here is an example ;D


















Anyone else see the knee coming from a mile away??

Its hard and weird to see a man the size of Brock and the STATURE of brock being beaten up like that. I wonder who Frank Mir is more scared to fight now... Brock the Mir Rapist or Cain the Brock Rapist??

LMAO
I just realized that when Brock does the running tumbling spin in the first GIF that you can see Cain Valesquez getting in his fighting stance expecting Brock to do something when instead he falls down and Cain continues the chase lol


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## Thunder1 (Aug 16, 2008)

"Something in Lesnar just wont allow him to become a good striker."

He lacks the ability to stand there and take a punch. Some fighters have it and some don't. It's not something he'll just pick up this late in his career. Same with some fighters tasting their own blood in a fight. Some don't give a shit and some can't deal with it.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thunder1 said:


> "Something in Lesnar just wont allow him to become a good striker."
> 
> He lacks the ability to stand there and take a punch. Some fighters have it and some don't. It's not something he'll just pick up this late in his career. Same with some fighters tasting their own blood in a fight. Some don't give a shit and some can't deal with it.


Yup... not sure how its related to tasting your own blood... but... uhh ok.

I think he is simply afraid of standing up with people. I think when someone hits him it hurts him mentally more then it does physically. And you cant avoid getting punched if you close your eyes and freak when you see someone throwing. He gets punched and freaks out to an extreme level.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Thunder1 said:


> "Something in Lesnar just wont allow him to become a good striker."
> 
> He lacks the ability to stand there and take a punch. Some fighters have it and some don't. It's not something he'll just pick up this late in his career. Same with some fighters tasting their own blood in a fight. Some don't give a shit and some can't deal with it.


Brock has no where near the hours sparing that most these guys have. To suddenly start sparing at 30 years old is always going to leave you without the experience to take a punch. For me, sparing is where taking punches becomes comfortable.

Brock never went through being young and skint, going to gyms and getting beat on. He open his own gym. All his sparing partners are his employees. He's become the top dog without earning it.

Honestly, the best thing he could do is go to somebody else's gym. Full of dudes who have no respect and would love to test themselves against Brock, and put a beating on him.


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## Johnni G (Dec 2, 2009)

Ouch. Brock will bounce back.


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## Thunder1 (Aug 16, 2008)

"Brock has no where near the hours sparing that most these guys have. To suddenly start sparing at 30 years old is always going to leave you without the experience to take a punch."

Correct. My blood comment is a simple comparison to being able to get blasted in the face. You have it or you don't. Some guys mentally can deal with getting blasted in the face and some can't deal with the taste of or seeing themselves bleed.

Wrestling you can build on. Ju Jitsu/grappling you can build on. Actual striking you can build on. Standing there and maintaining your composure while eating fists isn't easy to come by.


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## Sicilian_Esq (Sep 7, 2008)

SideWays222 said:


>


One of my good friends has been a Muay Thai fighter and kickboxer for years. He has a tape where he knocks Bonnar out with a high kick during training while at a training camp w/ Bonnar just after TUF. 

Anyway, he brought up a great point. If you watch this gif, you will see Cain hit Brock w/ a short left uppercut ("LUC") just before Brock runs and does the tumble. 

My buddy says the LUC hit right between the jawline and the skull. It's hitting basically an auditory canal, and it messes w/ your equilibrium big time. It will also take extremely long to recover from, and he said he's never seen anyone recover from that type of hit in a fight and win from there out. You're in full on survival mode.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Sicilian_Esq said:


> One of my good friends has been a Muay Thai fighter and kickboxer for years. He has a tape where he knocks Bonnar out with a high kick during training while at a training camp w/ Bonnar just after TUF.
> 
> Anyway, he brought up a great point. If you watch this gif, you will see Cain hit Brock w/ a short left uppercut ("LUC") just before Brock runs and does the tumble.
> 
> My buddy says the LUC hit right between the jawline and the skull. It's hitting basically an auditory canal, and it messes w/ your equilibrium big time. It will also take extremely long to recover from, and he said he's never seen anyone recover from that type of hit in a fight and win from there out. You're in full on survival mode.



I think everyone noticed the Uppercut. Yeah that to me just kinda says that brock got rocked. Not sure what is so special about this punch... looks to me just like any other punch that rocks someone. :confused02:

Also... i trust you and your friend. Ask him to upload that video on youtube?? I think thats a pretty interesting video.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Soojooko said:


> Brock has no where near the hours sparing that most these guys have. To suddenly start sparing at 30 years old is always going to leave you without the experience to take a punch. For me, sparing is where taking punches becomes comfortable.
> 
> Brock never went through being young and skint, going to gyms and getting beat on. He open his own gym. All his sparing partners are his employees. He's become the top dog without earning it.
> 
> Honestly, the best thing he could do is go to somebody else's gym. Full of dudes who have no respect and would love to test themselves against Brock, and put a beating on him.


That's why I think Brock would benefit incredibly from getting out of Minnesota and moving his camp over to somewhere like Holland for a couple of months, and train at one of the big K-1 gyms over there with beasts like Overeem. Sparring with those guys will get you used to taking punches, and that's what he needs. He needs some sparring with guys that are going to go at him hard. I believe 2 months at Golden Gloves would drastically improve his game. Hell, even joining Duke Roufus's gym with Pat Barry could really help him out. Working once a week with Peter Welch doesn't seem to be doing the trick.


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

:thumb02:

Well played sir. 



jdun11 said:


> I see this being the worst possible matchup in MMA for Brock. He is fighting a man with great wrestling, INSANE cardio(especially for HW), very dangerous strikes, and his fighting intangibles are unmatched. The guy was born to fight.
> 
> Im not sure how Brock wins this fight. I dont think Brock has a big enough wrestling advantage to rely on winning a decision by getting numerous TD's. He has insane power and could land a big shot, but that is the only shot hes got imo
> 
> ...


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

PheelGoodInc said:


> And Cains wrestling will fully nullify Brock's. Although it may not be up to par with Brock's, it's good enough to at least stop the TD's. If he does get taken down he will get back up. Mark my words.


Damn. This guys good! :thumb02:


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

Mad Prop's to Cain. Crow eaten. yech. lol


Brock will be back, with a vengence.


/end transmission.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Im sad Brock gassed, I just think Brock was spent.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

Very insightful.

Notice that Brock was rocked by a Carwin uppercut early in their fight as well. 


I'm a little perplexed by Brock's deteriorating confidence and competence in his standup. 

Brock threw hands with alot of authority and to great effect against Mir, Herring and Couture.

In his latest incarnation, he does not want to box at all, and has completely lost all confidence standing. 

This regression in his standup game is a bit odd, and can no longer be written off as "ring rust."

Brock does not like to box, and he is afraid to get hit. 

I don't like to say this, but the evidence suggests that he is a "front runner." He is amazing when he's ahead and/or on top, but when he's in a vulnerable position taking damage, he has very little idea about how to mount an intelligent, viable defense. At least not against top flight HW's. 

I'm curious to see if Brock can become a bit more ready to take shots without completely crumpling. 

As far as his confidence, no one can give that to him. He has to summon it from within himself.

He has an interesting future now. How far can he progress in his guard, and in his boxing, given the fact that he is 33, and the top HW's aside from Carwin, are younger (JDS and Cain in particular). 



Sicilian_Esq said:


> One of my good friends has been a Muay Thai fighter and kickboxer for years. He has a tape where he knocks Bonnar out with a high kick during training while at a training camp w/ Bonnar just after TUF.
> 
> Anyway, he brought up a great point. If you watch this gif, you will see Cain hit Brock w/ a short left uppercut ("LUC") just before Brock runs and does the tumble.
> 
> My buddy says the LUC hit right between the jawline and the skull. It's hitting basically an auditory canal, and it messes w/ your equilibrium big time. It will also take extremely long to recover from, and he said he's never seen anyone recover from that type of hit in a fight and win from there out. You're in full on survival mode.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Nice pick, jdun.

I hope Brock learns from this. I'd hate to see his interest fade and the heavyweight division lose such a great talent.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Wow, I didn't think it would happen... and jdun predicted it. What is this? Bizarro world?


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

jdun11 said:


> I see this being the worst possible matchup in MMA for Brock. He is fighting a man with great wrestling, INSANE cardio(especially for HW), very dangerous strikes, and his fighting intangibles are unmatched. The guy was born to fight.
> 
> Im not sure how Brock wins this fight. I dont think Brock has a big enough wrestling advantage to rely on winning a decision by getting numerous TD's. He has insane power and could land a big shot, but that is the only shot hes got imo
> 
> ...


Holy freaking hell. I called this fight a long time ago... but to call it in this much detail is amazing.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

jdun11 said:


> I see this being the worst possible matchup in MMA for Brock. He is fighting a man with great wrestling, INSANE cardio(especially for HW), very dangerous strikes, and his fighting intangibles are unmatched. The guy was born to fight.
> 
> Im not sure how Brock wins this fight. I dont think Brock has a big enough wrestling advantage to rely on winning a decision by getting numerous TD's. He has insane power and could land a big shot, but that is the only shot hes got imo
> 
> ...


All hail nostradomus


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Holy freaking hell. I called this fight a long time ago... but to call it in this much detail is amazing.


As much as I knew that Cain winning was a strong possibility, I wouldn't have ever gussed he would have stiff palm pimp slap Brock the way he did. Brock had opportunities too, so its not like Brock was just caught or something. He was technically dominated on all fronts and there's nothing I can say to really defend that fight. He was outclassed in striking, and Brock's wrestling was shockingly nullified. I knew Cain was not going to get held down Mir style, but I also wouldn't have guessed he'd escape in a split second. Also, Brock came out like a frantic badger the same way he came out on his debut against Mir. I would say that is a regression of experience. Sad times for Brock fans.

Now we've got the MMA purests HW dream match, JDS vs Cain. Maybe we can have a co-main event on that same card with Brock vs Carwin 2. If Big Roy upsets Carwin we might have a Big Country vs Brock. Anyway, obviously I was sorely disappointed and shocked at the ease which Cain took the belt, but it is what it is and Cain just displayed another level of MMA skill that night.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

michelangelo said:


> Very insightful.
> 
> Notice that Brock was rocked by a Carwin uppercut early in their fight as well.
> 
> ...


I share these sediments to a great degree. Those are the precise questions that need to be answered. Boxing is part technique and also and mental game. I've been where Brock is leaning boxing when I was younger. It takes time to get comfortable. Does Brock have the drive and focus to get comfortable with it. 

Just like guys don't need to be great wrestlers to nullify Brock's wrestling, Brock doesn't need to be a great striker to nullify great strikers. But he needs to improve a hundred fold. Some of the components are already there, but he needs to get a serious coach and go to work. Is he willing to put in the time?


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

> Also, Brock came out like a frantic badger the same way he came out on his debut against Mir. I would say that is a regression of experience. Sad times for Brock fans.


I would bet that that was the gameplan. His corner probably told him to go at Cain aggressively, and in all honesty it might have worked. We've never seen someone really set the pace dictate the fight and get in his face against him. Problem was it back fired . I think it told us more about Cain than it did about Brock.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

Could I have been more right? I broke this fight down to perfection!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, he got smoked and now Cain is set to defend his title. And like I said I am going to laugh at the concept of Brocktober...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Spike you gambled and you lost!:thumb02:


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, he got smoked and now Cain is set to defend his title. And like I said I am going to laugh at the concept of Brocktober...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Spike you gambled and you lost!:thumb02:


I don't think so. They probably still got a **** ton of ratings for it.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well it's still funny that they contributed all that time towards Brock and he ended up getting whopped by Cain. I guess they tried to go off the fact that Brock is scary. He is kind've physically imposing but honestly he doesn't have an intimidating face!:confused02:


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> I don't think so. They probably still got a **** ton of ratings for it.


Yeah, as far as Spiked is concerned, it really doesn't matter who wins or loses, they don't get a piece of Brock's purse, it just matters that people are watching.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

jdun11 said:


> Could I have been more right? I broke this fight down to perfection!


Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

Don't hate slapshot.Long before 99% of you were on this sight, I think I went all of 2006 and into 07 without getting a big fight wrong. And peep my avatar, I had that shit when people were saying Rua was just a product of steroids and foot stomps. I neva gave up on him. And back in early 06 when Hughes a dominant WW champ, I said Kos would fight for the title one day and I got laughed at. I'm not right all the time but I know my shit. Im a founding father of this site lol


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well you have to admit that foot stomps did help Rua in his PRIDE days. However, it wasn't a footstomp that made him the lightheavyweight champion. I also agree that when Hughes was dominant the thought of Kos fighting for the title was a little radical but things do change!:thumbsup:


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

slapshot said:


> Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


Lmao.. true that.


Jdun, you to me are KNOWN for making threads with predictions and then saying crazy shit like "IL LEAVE THIS FORUM IF IM WRONG" and you always end up being wrong. This is the first thread i can remember that you made and were right on. Im guessing you learned about not making commitments in-case you are wrong.


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