# Rashad Evans and Frank Mir showing signs of brain damage.



## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

> On Cormier’s chances against Jones: “I think that DC definitely can [win]. He definitely can. You know, DC, he seems different this time around. He seems different this time mentally speaking. Honestly speaking, this is a fight that DC…he has to win. Like, if DC doesn’t win this fight, there really — he would have to retire if he doesn’t win this fight.”
> 
> On another loss to Jones: “It’s like, what does he do then? Does he try to face Jon again for the third time? Once you take away a man’s desire to be the best — or he knows that he can’t be the best — then in a sense, you just kill that man off. So if he loses this fight, Jon would have killed him off. There’s no reason. The competitive grind would be gone.





> On PRIDE alumni Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Fedor Emelianenko and Mirko Cro-Cop: “I was told constantly if these three guys came over to the UFC, they’re going to clean house. It’s going to be the PRIDE show in the UFC. The three big names from the PRIDE heavyweights that I had to hear about in the early 2000s were obviously Fedor (and) Nogueira – and I heard Nogueira directed specifically toward me because I’m the American version and he’s the better version. I’m the cheap version of Nogueira. I’m the knock-off. Then you have Mirko ‘Cro-Cop.’ Everyone came over but Fedor. Fedor came over to an American show, but just not the UFC. He didn’t fare any better. He lost to (Antonio) ‘Bigfoot’ Silva, who smashed him. I have a win over ‘Bigfoot.’ I think that kind of settles that argument of what he would have done in the heavyweight division here in the UFC.”
> 
> On his fights with Mirko and Nogueira: “Mirko ‘Cro-Cop’ and Nogueira, I got to have first-hand direct relations in showing people what would happen if we faced off. I knocked out Mirko ‘Cro-Cop,’ who has a KO background. I never got the fight to the ground one time and still won it. Then Nogueira, he’s part of my history of what I’ve done well, knocking him out and submitting him.”
> 
> On Hunt: “One of Hunt’s weaknesses is to be able to push the pace. I feel like he’s too much of a veteran that if I sit out there and I fight at his pace, he’s never going to make a mistake. And if he doesn’t make a mistake I’ll never get him to the ground and put him where I feel I have the best chance of winning. MMA’s its own animal, that’s why we train MMA. It’s the same thing with striking. If you said I had to fight Mark Hunt in a K-1 fight, I would say, ‘Wow, that’s rough. That’s not going to be an easy fight.’ That being said, Fabricio Werdum knocked out Mark Hunt.”


Rashad Evans is telling someone to retire and Frank Mir is claiming to be greater than Fedor, Nog, and Cro-Cop due to MMA math.

So I guess Brandon Vera is the GOAT.

And of all the guys in the HW division the man that has never been finished needs to retire over Shogun, Hendo, Nog, Rashad, and Gustaf(due to damage).


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

John8204 said:


> Rashad Evans is telling someone to retire and Frank Mir is claiming to be greater than Fedor, Nog, and Cro-Cop due to MMA math.
> 
> So I guess Brandon Vera is the GOAT.
> 
> And of all the guys in the HW division the man that has never been finished needs to retire over Shogun, Hendo, Nog, Rashad, and Gustaf(due to damage).


Well Mir makes good points on the Pride guys. Heavily juiced up dudes like Cro Cop could not make the transition. Cro Cop is about the biggest disappointment for me ever to come to the UFC.
Mir messed up big nog twice. He was also UFC HW champ and will not go away even if it looked like his career was totally done a few years ago, so for me he is better then both of those guys. The legend of Fedor is not what it was, he dropped significantly for me fighting all these bums especially the last guy. It was a total sham. He should be fighting the best only. His last 7 fights he won the last 4 against homeless guys and retirees like Rizzo who came in on a zimmer frame, and the previous 3 he lost. You could compare that to the likes of Severn and Sapp


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

I don't know how you can say Pride guys had trouble with the transition when we just had two fight for the title (Mark Hunt and Fabricio Werdum).

Also Frank Mir's resume is horrible

Wins - 
Pete Williams - retirement fight
Tank Abbott - his "comeback"
Wes Sims - twice, once by DQ
Antoni Hardonk - post K1
Big Nog - after 40 fights and a staph infection
Brock Lesner - in his second fight, where Mazzughati screwed Brock over
Mirko Cro-Cop- 70 fights
Dan Christison - a TUF reject who lost to Seth Petruzelli.

Fedor has a better record fighting UFC champions outside the UFC than Frank has in it.

Frank Mir - 4-7
Fedor - 7-1-(1)

Fedor had a solid 10 years as the top HW, that's twice as long as other "top" HW.

You can say Pedro Rizzo and Jeff Monson are bums now, but that's the end of his career. Frank Mir got a title shot beating Wes Sims and Tank Abbott where he beat Tim Sylvia


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

John8204 said:


> I don't know how you can say Pride guys had trouble with the transition when we just had two fight for the title (Mark Hunt and Fabricio Werdum).
> 
> Also Frank Mir's resume is horrible
> 
> ...


Most of the pride guys when they came over straight away they were poor. It took them a lot of time to acclimatise. 

Fedor as soon as he left Japan started to get beat. Arlovski was even destroying him until he jumped in stupidly. He then lost 3 in a row, and decided he would not fight anyone of any calibre anymore. The end of his career has been a joke (last 4 fights), I don't think that can be argued. Now he is just putting up a charade to make money which is a very sad state of affairs. Maybe in some eyes he is entitled to do this, but for me it ruins the Fedor aura and belittles the things he did before. 

Mir fought the best in the UFC at the time, he always has. Not his fault if it was Tank. Sylvia was the best at the time and would have put up a good fight against any HW before he let himself go. Mir broke his arm. 
Mir has also fought the best guys for much much longer then Fedor. 

Anyway this isn't a Mir vs Fedor argument, but I just feel Mir makes good points about the Pride guys, I can't think of one that came over and was just as good in the UFC as Pride straight away. Hunt took time, Werdum took a lot of time to get it together post pride. Rampage became the champ straight away but I never found him entertaining at all in the UFC. 
Mir's career is just as good if not better then most, given his comeback from a shattered leg, and coming back better after his 4 fight losing streak instead of going out to pasture and fighting fixed fights etc. He should be highly respected for that, the way he came out and fought against Todd Duffee was outstanding


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## MMAexamined (May 11, 2015)

PRIDE - UFC different rules slightly to put in UFC all the american wrestlers. Different clinch and ground game... Sport has evolved a lot since the best days of Cro Cop, Emilianenko etc. 

Plus all of them that came to American organizations had 50+ not matches, wars.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

DonRifle said:


> Most of the pride guys when they came over straight away they were poor. It took them a lot of time to acclimatise.


It depends on who you count as UFC guys, JDS(08), Carwin(08), Lesnar(08), and Velasquez(08) I consider that to be the UFC Post Pride class. But that isn't Frank Mir's generation of HW's.


*Alistair Overeem def. Paul Buentello*
Paul Buentello def Gary Goodridge

*Josh Barnett def. Jeff Monson*
Jeff Monson def. Kazuyuki Fujita

*Josh Barnett def Pedro Rizzo
Sergei Kharitonov def. Pedro Rizzo*

Frank Mir def. Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira
*Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira def Randy Couture
Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira def Tim Sylvia*

*Heath Herring def. Brad Imes*
Jake O'Brien def. Heath Herring
*Heath Herring def Chieck Kongo*

Cheick Kongo def. Mirko Filipović
Gabriel Gonzaga def. Mirko Filipović
*Mirko Filipovic def. Eddie Sanchez*

*Fedor Emelianenko def Tim Sylvia
Fedor Emelianenko def Andrei Arlovski*

*Fabrício Werdum def. Gabriel Gonzaga*
Andrei Arlovski def. Fabrício Werdum
*Fabrício Werdum def. Brandon Vera*

*Mark Coleman def. Stephan Bonnar*
Randy Couture def. Mark Coleman
*
Sergei Kharitonov def Andrei Arlovski*

Heavyweight class Pride vs UFC I've got it scored 17-9



> Fedor as soon as he left Japan started to get beat. Arlovski was even destroying him until he jumped in stupidly. He then lost 3 in a row, and decided he would not fight anyone of any calibre anymore.


As soon as he left Japan he beat two UFC HW champions. Arlovski didn't win a round against Fedor...the fight ended in the first round. So to say he "destroyed" is a bit of a porky.

But think about what you are saying, Fedor at the end of his career fighting across the world went 4-3 well three of those are former UFC champions he beat.

Randy Couture is 4-3 going to japan and those three loses are easily the worst of his career.

Well who did he lose to, Big Foot Silva (steroids), Dan Henderson (TRT), and Fabricio Werdum (our current UFC champion).



> The end of his career has been a joke (last 4 fights), I don't think that can be argued. Now he is just putting up a charade to make money which is a very sad state of affairs. Maybe in some eyes he is entitled to do this, but for me it ruins the Fedor aura and belittles the things he did before.


Well let's look at those four

Pedro Rizzo - a UFC HW title contender
Jeff Monson - a UFC HW title contender
Satoshi Ishii - a UFC caliber fighter
Singh Jaideep - a guy with a combat record of 42-12-1

Rizzo and Monson are Frank Mir generation HW's, Ishi beat Sylvia (which BTW typically gets you a call up to the UFC)



> Mir fought the best in the UFC at the time, he always has. Not his fault if it was Tank. Sylvia was the best at the time and would have put up a good fight against any HW before he let himself go. Mir broke his arm.


Yeah and he lost...to Vera, Freeman, and Cruz and he didn't face Randy Couture the actual best HW the UFC had.



> Mir has also fought the best guys for much much longer then Fedor.


Fedor 26-1 (1)
Frank Mir 18-10

AS for quality...hows this for a shocker both guys 29th fight is against the same guy (Mark Hunt)




> Anyway this isn't a Mir vs Fedor argument, but I just feel Mir makes good points about the Pride guys, I can't think of one that came over and was just as good in the UFC as Pride straight away. Hunt took time, Werdum took a lot of time to get it together post pride. Rampage became the champ straight away but I never found him entertaining at all in the UFC.


Rampage, Alistair, Big Nog, Lombard, Mousasi and Fedor all won titles immediately. 



> Mir's career is just as good if not better then most, given his comeback from a shattered leg, and coming back better after his 4 fight losing streak instead of going out to pasture and fighting fixed fights etc. He should be highly respected for that, the way he came out and fought against Todd Duffee was outstanding


Frank Mir has either really good fights...or really really really bad fights. His fight with Mirko, Nelson, and Arlovksi (top guys) were arguably the worst fights of the year each time. Frank Mir is maybe a top 20 HW all-time if you count the division from the beginning.

And in conclusion...where do you get the idea that Frank Mir was clean...he went on TRT. Fedor's a Russian so he must be a cheater but Frank Mir comes from an equally dirty camp and he was on TRT.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

I never understand why people hate Mir, I think he's a well spoken guy who is probably one of the best HWs ever, he's never had the chin for HW but we also never got to see him at his best. It's a shame Mir got into that accident he'd probably go down as the best or second best HW ever. He never really recovered from that accident.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

John8204 said:


> It depends on who you count as UFC guys, JDS(08), Carwin(08), Lesnar(08), and Velasquez(08) I consider that to be the UFC Post Pride class. But that isn't Frank Mir's generation of HW's.
> 
> 
> *Alistair Overeem def. Paul Buentello*
> ...


Your post is way to complex for me to go through right now. So I'll just give you the debate :laugh: 
But your last paragraph is probably right. Mir would have been on the juice Im pretty sure. Thats not really a gripe I have with Fedor, but I'm just pissed at him they way he's handling the end of his career. The last fight was likely a fix, or at least a setup of some sort.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Life B Ez said:


> I never understand why people hate Mir,






Life B Ez said:


> who is probably one of the best HWs ever,



I don't hate Frank Mir but that is a big reason why Frank deserves hatred he was never a top five heavyweight in his career. He had the UFC machine pushing and protecting him for his entire career.

The difference between Pride and the UFC is that Pride gave you the fights you wanted to see while the UFC gave you the fights they wanted you to see. Was Frank Mir better than Andrei Arlovski, and Randy Couture...who knows they never gave us those fights.

Ranking the UFC Heavyweights Pre-Pride 2000-2006 I would go

1. Randy Couture
2. Andrei Arlovski
3. Pedro Rizzo
4. Frank Mir
5. Brandon Vera
6. Tim Sylvia 
7. Chieck Kongo
8. Gabriel Gonzaga 
9. Jeff Monson
10. Paul Buentello

Pride I would go
1. Fedor
2. Big Nog
3. Mirko Cro-Cop
4. Josh Barnett
5. Mark Coleman
6. Heath Herring
7. Igor Vovchanchyn
8. Don Frye
9. Fabrício Werdum
10. Mark Hunt

I don't think Frank would crack that top ten in either his prime or his legacy


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

Frank could beat half of those fighters you list. Your underrating him hard!


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

DonRifle said:


> Frank could beat half of those fighters you list. Your underrating him hard!


Perhaps, we'll never know because he never had a prime to speak of.

Frank's average, popular but average,


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

Nah thats too harsh he's the most viscious submission guy in the history of the sport. You dont become UFC champ by being average


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

No you become the UFC champ beating Wes Sims, Tim Sylvia and Tank Abbott.

He's also not alone i'd call Maurice Smith and Ricco Rodriguez average.

Frank Mir will beat 50% of the top guys in the sport at any time. But Frank Mir will lose to 50% of the top guys in the sport at any time.

He's 5-6 against UFC champions, and I don't think his submission game would have worked in Pride. He would have ended up like another two time UFC HW champ Mark Kerr and gotten decimated.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

Maurice Green average! Bah! Tim Syliva was not average in his prime either


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

So where would you rank him?

Above Shane Carwin and Brock Lesnar who decimated him?

Above Igor, Coleman, Frye and Severn the greats that came before him?

Above the contemporaries he didn't fight in his company Couture, Belfort, and Arlovski.

Above Fedor, Nog, Cro-Cop, because he beat two of them late in their careers. And if he fought Mirko in a ring he wouldn't just be able to hold him against the ropes for 3 rounds.

Above JDS, Cain, Werdum, Overeem, and Cormier? The greats that followed him. 

Why is Frank Mir the man who beat Tim Sylvia when he was 16-1 a "legend" and Satoshi Ishii who beat Tim Sylvia at 31-8 a joke. Not only a joke but a joke that diminishes the greatest HW of all time Fedor?


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

I dunno where I put him exactly, but he is certainly not average that is for sure. 

Its very easy to take guys in and out of context when they were up and when they were down. 
Tim Sylvia after he left the UFC did not give a funk anymore, that is clear. After the Randy fight he had major back problems and was never the same. In his prime which was about 1 or 2 years he was an almost 7 foot tall guy with major power who was extreme when it came to toughness. He refused to tap with his arm getting broken, and came back from a virtual KO against arlovski. Randy was like a 9-1 underdog, a mutiple time UFC champ facing Sylvia, thats how highly he was rated at his peak. 
Mir has shown himself to be very skilled in certain areas, but he had many ups and downs. He had serious injuries throughout his career, and experimented with a lot of stuff - being a Vegan, bulking up massively, learning how to box all of a sudden. What he did to Duffee was world class. 
He's about the most dangerous guy ever on the ground when he's already hurt, one mistake and if Mir grabs something he is either breaking it or pulling it off. Mir can be great and Mir can be bad, pretty much like every fighter on the list. 
Don Frye was crap sometimes, so was Coleman, othertimes they were amazing. So many variables. Mir has shown much more longevity and is still a top ten guy. He deserves much more credit then you give him!


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Do we still think Frank Mir is one of the all-time greats?


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

John8204 said:


> Do we still think Frank Mir is one of the all-time greats?


Yes we do. Many a man has been put down by Hunt including the current HW champ twice!


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

What does a loss close to the end of a 15 year career of a fighter who is still Top10 to do with his overall career achievements anyways¿


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## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

Mirs notoriety doesn't necessarily come from a valuation from his quality as a fighter, but his general durability and long tenure amongst the elite of the world. No, he's not always in top 5, but whenever you think another L will put him into irrelevance, he beats someone decent, or just ok, and you realize that Mir has quality that seperates him from the chaff.

Somehow, he maintains a cockiness despite his many losses, which understandably can rub people the wrong way, but after awhile you just have to admire his gameness and persistence.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

John8204 said:


> Do we still think Frank Mir is one of the all-time greats?


I never had him as one of the greats in the first place, back when he was champ he benefited from all the good heavyweights being in pride. Not that i think these post prime losses have much effect on his ranking or anything... but he was never a top 10 all time hw to begin with....


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

John8204 said:


> Do we still think Frank Mir is one of the all-time greats?


Unless your brain dead yes you do...

Much of Frank's story comes from outside the cage, its hard to remember he was never supposed to walk again much less participate in prize fighting. 

Any list of all time top heavyweights is going to have a few fighters frank beat in it, Id say that's going to have to count for something. 

Of coarse there are fighters he'll never be given merit over and rightfully so but Mir is in my top HW fighters of all time list. I cant see how he wouldn't be.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Voiceless said:


> What does a loss close to the end of a 15 year career of a fighter who is still Top10 to do with his overall career achievements anyways¿


Because old tired veteran Frank Mir...is losing to guys older with much more miles on them.

Junior Dos Santos - 32 - 21 fights
Alistair Overeem - 35 - 70 fights
*Frank Mir - 36- 29 fights*
Daniel Cormier - 36 - 24 fights
Marcio Cruz - 37 - 11 fights
Andrei Arlovski - 37 - 37 fights
Josh Barnett - 38 - 42 fights
Brock Lesnar - 38 - 8 fights
Brandon Vera - 38 - 22 fights
Mark Hunt - 41 - 56 fights
Shane Carwin - 41 - 14 fights
Ian Freeman - 49 - 29 fights

Does Frank Mir really deserve to be considered greater than Josh Barnett and Mark Hunt? Yes he had two titles, but they were disputed championships and the men who had the other titles (Fedor, Lesnar, and Overeem) defeated him pretty handily.

And everyone mocked Bellator for the Kimbo Slice vs Dada 5000 fight but this is what Dada looked like










And this is the shape Frank was in















What was he trying to eat enough donuts for fear Mark Hunt was going to break his jaw?

Did he hire Ronda Rousey's nutritionist?

Or were the steroids just that damn good.

If any other promotion rolled out Frank Mir in that shape they would be mocked. Look at the sad old out of shape guy in the main event. Look at the exploitation do they have no shame why is a freak show fight in the main event.


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## Kickass32 (Mar 10, 2016)

You are not really comparing Frank Mir to Dada are you???


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

slapshot said:


> Unless your brain dead yes you do...
> 
> Much of Frank's story comes from outside the cage, its hard to remember he was never supposed to walk again much less participate in prize fighting.
> 
> ...


Big Nog got ran over by a truck
Brandon Vera was almost murdered by thugs
Brock Lesnar lost part of his colon and intestines
Don Frye got addicted to pain pills after a war with Ken Shamrock
Mark Coleman was never the same after his ACL surgery
Kevin Randleman had a staph infection that basically ended his career
Bas Rutten had such terrible asthma as a child he could barely breath.

Shit happens, often to people not dumb enough to get on a motorcycle when your livelihood is based on your health.

Each and everyone of those men had terrible things happen to them and even with that I would rank them ahead of Frank based on their accomplishments.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Kickass32 said:


> You are not really comparing Frank Mir to Dada are you???


Who has more rolls of fat? If your physical shape can even be compared to a tomato can Kimbo's facing it's time to reevaluate your lifestyle choices.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

Because having extra weight means you can't fight... that includes you Mark Hunt, Roy Nelson, BJ Penn, Cole Konrad, Mike Russo, Fedor, Tim Sylvia, Ricco Rodriguez. 7% bodyfat or ko'ed.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Their is a difference between a fat guy that can fight and a fighter that got fat.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

Yeah ok, but the Frank got fat train rolled out years ago so not really a good point.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Joabbuac said:


> I never had him as one of the greats in the first place, back when he was champ he benefited from all the good heavyweights being in pride. Not that i think these post prime losses have much effect on his ranking or anything... but he was never a top 10 all time hw to begin with....


Ever the sciolist I see.


John8204 said:


> Big Nog got ran over by a truck
> Brandon Vera was almost murdered by thugs
> Brock Lesnar lost part of his colon and intestines
> Don Frye got addicted to pain pills after a war with Ken Shamrock
> ...


Its not pity, its just a simple fact, brain injury to a mma fighter is bit different than getting a leg broke and I dont think anyone's taking anything away from Nog here? other than Mir beat him ..

A lot of heavyweights have shit skills even some of the successful HW fighter would be a court jester at LHW skill wise if Ben Rothwell could make LHW his "style" would get torched. He gets by because he has so much power, but is he a technician? fuk no!

Mir's ground game is something of wicked beauty, he's got enough skill that if you tossed out his weight and size advantages over smaller guys he would still be a threat to sub anyone. 

His striking is not the issue with his stand up, its his chin and his lack of movement, still at heavyweight his striking is above par for most of the field to date. 

He just cant take a punch and honestly Im probably going to piss some people off but Mir wouldn't shock me if he killed himself, his issues are all stemming from brain damage and he just keeps going anyway. Something about him reminds me of Chris Benoit. 

How close he gets to being the best HW of all time is subjective but he's one of the best in the UFC undeniably, in the world he's top fifteen or top ten for sure IMO.


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## Kickass32 (Mar 10, 2016)

John8204 said:


> Who has more rolls of fat? If your physical shape can even be compared to a tomato can Kimbo's facing it's time to reevaluate your lifestyle choices.


One has more skill in his little toe than the other guy could ever hope to have, but ok.....................


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

John8204 said:


> Their is a difference between a fat guy that can fight and a fighter that got fat.


At the end of his career, so what¿

That dude has his Jits ingrained so much that he broke Nogueira's arm on auto-pilot when he was basically KOed.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

To be fair, you're kind of just doing the math shit yourself John.

Frank Mir doesn't think he's an old and slow guy, out of shape guy right now. He's clearly not someone who is capable of looking at himself objectively.

He's just going to take it simple. Big Nog was a superstar in Pride who went down to the wire with Fedor, where as Mir stopped him twice. Bigfoot Silva destroys Fedor and has struggled in the UFC. Mirko Cro Cop struggled in the UFC. These are just simple statements. There are 500 things behind each, but Mir isn't breaking them down. He's just using the simple statements and clutching to them in a non objective way to convince himself he's better. Hardly a big shocker.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

slapshot said:


> Ever the sciolist I see.


Did you google the spelling of that?


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Joabbuac said:


> Did you google the spelling of that?


The same way you google martial arts knowledge? No.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

slapshot said:


> The same way you google martial arts knowledge? No.


Exactly... I rarely get into a discussion without the fighters sherdog page in the next tab.


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## Pillowhands (Mar 10, 2012)

I can`t be quite sure what is going on with Frank Mir. Showing up at 260 ish at the weight scale. He looks out of shape,slow as hell and could not set up anything that could potentially get Hunt on the ground.
Is there any point for Mir to continue his fighting carrier when is not even capable to show up in shape?


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

I like Frank Mir. Even though he destroyed my MMA idol Big Nog twice.
I reckon he could be an excellent commentator when he decides to stop fighting. Very charismatic and articulated person. 

Win or lose, one great career.


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