# Randy won that fight... plain and simple.



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Octagon control, people. He had it. For nearly 2/3s of the fight. I'm not saying it was a pretty win. And I'm certainly not saying that it was an impressive win. But he was able to hold Vera against that cage, and Vera wasn't able to escape. So take your shots at Randy, like the fickle crowd you are (you claim to be so much better than WWE fans, yet you're more or less the same), and move on with your lives. I'm seeing far too many asinine comments from people on these boards who at one moment love a fighter, then the next minute turn on him. Just like... gasp... the fans of wrestling that we all claim to loathe!

Randy had some nice exchanges of his own, and while Vera clearly had the more effective and damaging strikes, it doesn't change the fact that Couture quite *clearly* dictated where the fight took place. And this is why he was given a very narrow win. Key word being narrow, people. He didn't win by a mile, and this was hardly highway robbery. Maybe we should point our fingers at Vera for not doing a bit more to get away from the cage? Or finishing Randy when he had the chance? Feel free to disagree, and I encourage discussion. But I don't see this as being anywhere near as bad as Machida vs. Shogun in regards to the decision.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

I don't disagree, but I recommend you put your flame suit on.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

swpthleg said:


> I don't disagree, but I recommend you put your flame suit on.


It's only 'negative reputation'. My principles and loyalties mean more to me. :thumbsup:


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## Sterling (Dec 14, 2006)

a take down and a knock down over takes octagon control in my opinion especially when your not doing anything in the clinch


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## vader (Sep 16, 2007)

I agree! Randy won, heres how I scored it.

Randy won round 1.
Vera won Round 2.
Randy won Round 3. Here is why- He controled the round and landed some shots as well. Vera got a take down, but randy also escaped. I would of gave Vera a couple for the take down and one for randy for escaping. Giving that Randy controled the round, I give round 3 to Randy.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Randy wasnt even in complete control of the clinch, got almost everyone of his takedowns stuffed, Vera dropped him and the ref stood them up way to fast, Vera had full mount in the third and did the only damage in the entire fight. I dont consider clinching to be significant if you cant do shit with it. Getting your offense shut down doesnt equal a win, Vera put out the only real offense of the fight. The most bias reffing in the history of the UFC. Total bullshit on so many levels.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

I'll have to rewatch the fight later, but on first viewing I felt Vera just barely eeked out a win, but Couture winning isn't a robbery.

Octagon control is only part of the scoring.

You also have striking, aggression, and grappling. I give the striking and aggression to Vera and grappling as a draw because Vera was able to achieve the mount.


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## SlowGraffiti (Dec 29, 2007)

If Randy Couture was replaced with someone like I don't know say Ryan Bader for example, you guys would change your opinion in an instant. Randy's legacy has skewed your perception. Stop lying to yourselves.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

When so little happens in a fight, how can you not give it to the one fighter who does anything? How about a 10/8 round? Jesus, Randy almost got finished in the second.


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## YOURMOMWASHERE (Sep 20, 2009)

With UFC judging yes couture won, they really value octagon control. Overall it was a shitty fight but come on vera, that is what you get for letting randy muscle you against the cage like that.

If this fight happened in the square ring like pride randy wouldve gotten knocked out in the first 30 seconds. Oh well.


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## vader (Sep 16, 2007)

joshua7789 said:


> Randy wasnt even in complete control of the clinch, got almost everyone of his takedowns stuffed, Vera dropped him and the ref stood them up way to fast, Vera had full mount in the third and did the only damage in the entire fight. I dont consider clinching to be significant if you cant do shit with it. Getting your offense shut down doesnt equal a win, Vera put out the only real offense of the fight. The most bias reffing in the history of the UFC. Total bullshit on so many levels.


In wrestling a takedown is worth a couple of points and an escape is worth a point as well. Randy did escape Vera's takedown and he controlled the 3rd round. I gave Randy round 1 and 3. 

You could score it a draw.
Randy 10-9 RD1
Vera 10-8 Rd2
Randy 10-9 Rd3

I dont see how you can give it to vera for one takedown.:confused05:


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

joshua7789 said:


> Randy wasnt even in complete control of the clinch, got almost everyone of his takedowns stuffed, Vera dropped him and the ref stood them up way to fast, Vera had full mount in the third and did the only damage in the entire fight. I dont consider clinching to be significant if you cant do shit with it. Getting your offense shut down doesnt equal a win, Vera put out the only real offense of the fight. The most bias reffing in the history of the UFC. Total bullshit on so many levels.


I agree in some regards. Randy's TDs were essentially non-existent, and I've already admitted that Vera's striking was far superior in terms of damage, but I don't think those kicks, and even the TD, which Vera did nothing with, change the fact that Randy dictated where 2/3s of the fight took place. Whether it was ugly or cheap is irrelevant. I don't like it myself, and I really do think Couture's age shown through tonight, but he still managed to weigh down a much younger, much larger fighter for the bulk of that fight, and Vera wasn't able to fight *his* fight because of this, as Joe even said (before turning on Randy at the end). 

It was close. To the point where I thought Brandon might even take a split decision. But I wasn't at all surprised to see it go to Randy, nor was I fuming over it. I think some of the backlash is absolutely ridiculous and unjustified.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

vader said:


> In wrestling a takedown is worth a couple of points and an escape is worth a point as well. Randy did escape Vera's takedown and he controlled the 3rd round. I gave Randy round 1 and 3.
> 
> You could score it a draw.
> Randy 10-9 RD1
> ...


Takedown and mount compared to holding the clinch and getting your takedowns stuffed, Randy did as little in the third as he did in the first and never actually won an exchange. Another thing, the ref let Randy clinch for way to long without doing anything, Vera could have been holding it in order to get a separation that this terrible ref was so hesitant to give.


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## BWoods (Apr 8, 2007)

I counted the fight for Randy, mostly because I was looking at it as a judge would. Judges are forced to look at the rounds as separate events, Randy had control of rounds 1 and 3. He controlled the pace of the fight and had a takedown in round one and landed more shots in the third round while controlling the pace.

I feel if the judging criteria were different (Not using teh 10-point must system) then the fight would be much closer and I believe Vera would have won. 

Don't bash the judges or the UFC for this one.


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## YOURMOMWASHERE (Sep 20, 2009)

vader said:


> *In wrestling *a takedown is worth a couple of points and an escape is worth a point as well. Randy did escape Vera's takedown and he controlled the 3rd round. I gave Randy round 1 and 3.
> 
> You could score it a draw.
> Randy 10-9 RD1
> ...



Wrong sport bro, this is MMA.


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## vader (Sep 16, 2007)

To me this fight is not a robbery it depends on what the judges valued and I agreed with their decision. I would not have blown a gasket if Vera was the winner either. A very close fight and could go either way.


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## vader (Sep 16, 2007)

YOURMOMWASHERE said:


> Wrong sport bro, this is MMA.


 wrestling is part of MMA.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Im shocked that anyone can really agree with this decision. You can say that Randy controlled the fight, but Vera also negated everything that he tried to do. Vera may have been pressed against the cage, but he kept Randy from doing anything and had the only offense in the second and third rounds. The Randy bias on here is starting to reach Machida esque levels.


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## hitmachine44 (Oct 15, 2006)

Based on the criteria judges use I understand why Couture got the win. It's a really, really shitty way to win and I believe "Octogon Control" is seriously over valued. 

Couture gets the Matt Hughes treatment on this one, he was content to lean on Vera and the ref wasn't gonna do shit about it.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

You're right in the aspect that Randy may have "controlled" the fight but "octagon control" is the most controversial and IMO BS way to judge a fight since many judges don't score it the same way. Shogun "won" the octagon control in his fight with Machida but lost the decision- Randy was able to "hug" Vera against the cage though Vera was able to limit the effectiveness to zero damage taken. Vera landed the most damaging strikes but Randy "hugged" him against the cage for the win via "octagon control". 

No it's not surprising but just another example that judging fights like this can go either way and in all honesty not to the person who "won" the fight but to how the judges see and award "points" correctly or incorrectly when determining a "winner".


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

joshua7789 said:


> Im shocked that anyone can really agree with this decision. You can say that Randy controlled the fight, but Vera also negated everything that he tried to do. Vera may have been pressed against the cage, but he kept Randy from doing anything and had the only offense in the second and third rounds. The Randy bias on here is starting to reach Machida esque levels.


He did everything he could except... getting and staying off of the cage. You can call me biased, but the fact is, I'm also a big fan of Brandon Vera... so what now? It was an ugly win, it was a cheap win, but it was a warranted win. And a close win. Not a high way robbery win. Were I some biased and blind Couture fan, I would admit none of this, so nice attempt with an oh so cliche comeback. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, you and I.


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## machidaisgod (Aug 14, 2009)

This was WORSE than the Macida decision, Machida scored, All Randy did was hold him to the cage, when he wasn't getting way outhit and wrestled. The old man did NO damage. Ignorant poster. At least Randy has introduced his next great gameplan and new mma style, PnP - push and pray when you can not even take the man down. Which is where Randy wanted the fight so that shows lack of ring control I believe.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Walker said:


> You're right in the aspect that Randy may have "controlled" the fight but "octagon control" is the most controversial and IMO BS way to judge a fight since many judges don't score it the same way. Shogun "won" the octagon control in his fight with Machida but lost the decision- Randy was able to "hug" Vera against the cage though Vera was able to limit the effectiveness to zero damage taken. Vera landed the most damaging strikes but Randy "hugged" him against the cage for the win via "octagon control".
> 
> No it's not surprising but just another example that judging fights like this can go either way and in all honesty not to the person who "won" the fight but to how the judges see and award "points" correctly or incorrectly when determining a "winner".


And I do agree with that point. It's difficult to make a case for Randy in this fight, yet not Shogun in his fight with Machida (which I did have Shogun winning, albeit in a competitive bout). More consistency in regards to judging is definitely needed.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Well clearly Randy wanted to take Vera down and that didn't happen so Vera was controlling where the fight took place. That is the logical conclusion however not the retarded no brain conclusion you need to come to if you want to be an MMA judge. Another example of why octagon control is the most illogical judging criteria ever created and how it shouldn't exist because it has no clear definition and doesn't mean anything towards who was actually winning the fight.

Randy lost you can't justify the decision it doesn't make sense other than the ********* judges they have giving it to Randy becuase they are corrupt and incompetitent. The entire fight was Vera beating the shit out of Randy and Randy hugging Vera which caused Vera to hug Randy. Two people hugging eachother with no one gaining an advantage over the other is a neutral position you aren't imposing your will you are stalling.


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## vader (Sep 16, 2007)

It depends on what is important to the judge. THis is not robbery it could have gone either way. I agree with the decision, but Vera could have easily won also.

Never leave it to the judges.


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## vader (Sep 16, 2007)

osmium said:


> Well clearly Randy wanted to take Vera down and that didn't happen so Vera was controlling where the fight took place. That is the logical conclusion however not the retarded no brain conclusion you need to come to if you want to be an MMA judge. Another example of why octagon control is the most illogical judging criteria ever created and how it shouldn't exist because it has no clear definition and doesn't mean anything towards who was actually winning the fight.
> 
> Randy lost you can't justify the decision it doesn't make sense other than the ********* judges they have giving it to Randy becuase they are corrupt and incompetitent. The entire fight was Vera beating the shit out of Randy and Randy hugging Vera which caused Vera to hug Randy. Two people hugging eachother with no one gaining an advantage over the other is a neutral position you aren't imposing your will you are stalling.



I agree that control is a matter of perception. Royce liked to be on his back, but most UFC judges would give the guy on top fight control. Its all ways been that way in UFC. Fight control is a judges perception.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Try not to double post; use the edit button instead.


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## langloin (Oct 1, 2009)

Seems like peoplke just love to complain about decisions lately. Randy won he choose where the fight took place.


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## enufced904 (Jul 17, 2008)

osmium said:


> Well clearly Randy wanted to take Vera down and that didn't happen so Vera was controlling where the fight took place. That is the logical conclusion however not the retarded no brain conclusion you need to come to if you want to be an MMA judge. Another example of why octagon control is the most illogical judging criteria ever created and how it shouldn't exist because it has no clear definition and doesn't mean anything towards who was actually winning the fight.
> 
> Randy lost you can't justify the decision it doesn't make sense other than the ********* judges they have giving it to Randy becuase they are corrupt and incompetitent. The entire fight was Vera beating the shit out of Randy and Randy hugging Vera which caused Vera to hug Randy. Two people hugging eachother with no one gaining an advantage over the other is a neutral position you aren't imposing your will you are stalling.


This.


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## YOURMOMWASHERE (Sep 20, 2009)

langloin said:


> Seems like peoplke just love to complain about decisions lately. Randy won he choose where the fight took place.


Wrong. Randy wanted the fight on the ground and failed the whole time except when vera dropped him and got on his guard.

This sucks for vera, he probably lost his UFC contract.


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## HellRazor (Sep 24, 2006)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Octagon control, people. He had it. For nearly 2/3s of the fight. I'm not saying it was a pretty win. And I'm certainly not saying that it was an impressive win. But he was able to hold Vera against that cage, and Vera wasn't able to escape.


If you scored fights based on overall damage, Vera won the fight. But fights aren't scored on overall damage. 'Ten Point Must' mandates certain things. The winner gets 10 points, the loser 9 or less. How you score round 1 probably dictated the outcome of the fight. 

There are two elements to UFC scoring here I thought were critical.

1) Randy Couture gets credit from judges for controlling opponents and mauling them that other fighters don't get. Those other fighters SHOULD get that credit, but they don't. A Matt Hamill or a Rashad Evens could fight the same fight Randy did, and they'd lose 29-28.

2) Judges do NOT give credit for body kicks. It's like they've never been hit by one. Brandon Vera practically folded Couture in half in the 2nd round, and two out of three judges gave that round to Couture. Even with the takedown, Vera didn't get the thid round.

In the second case, the judging wasn't inconsistent. That's how UFC judges score. And Vera certainly can't complain that the ref wasn't seperating them when Couture wasn't active. 

IMHO, Vera did more damage, and could easily have been given round 2 for damage, and I thought he stole round 3 with that late takedown. But he let somebody _46 years old_, somebody shorter, smaller, slower and maybe weaker, just push him around and _maul_ him. Couture did, indeed dictate where the fight took place. But isn't the FIRST criteria, '_effective_ striking'?

Was Brandon Vera in any danger of actually losing the fight the entire night? Not that I saw. But it was almost as if he had no plan to WIN the fight, just a plan to _fight_ it.



.


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## Blitzz (Apr 13, 2009)

YOURMOMWASHERE said:


> Wrong. Randy wanted the fight on the ground and failed the whole time except when vera dropped him and got on his guard.
> 
> This sucks for vera, he probably lost his UFC contract.


Wrong, Randy wanted this fight in the clinch against the fence. He executed his game plan perfectly.

Round 3 is what won Couture the fight. The combo he put together was huge and put him ahead even with Vera getting the takedown at the end.

Randy won this fight. If Vera controlled where the fight went, why couldnt he get out of the clinch and get back to out striking Couture?

To say Randy did nothing in the clinch, you need to rewatch the fight. He did do plenty, especially in the 3rd.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Blitzz said:


> Wrong, Randy wanted this fight in the clinch against the fence. He executed his game plan perfectly.
> 
> Round 3 is what won Couture the fight. The combo he put together was huge and put him ahead even with Vera getting the takedown at the end.
> 
> ...


If by "plenty" you mean doing zero damage and getting his takedowns stuffed, then yes, he did "plenty".


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## Blitzz (Apr 13, 2009)

joshua7789 said:


> If by "plenty" you mean doing zero damage and getting his takedowns stuffed, then yes, he did "plenty".


Honestly, you only paid attention to the takedown attempts. Please rewatch the fight.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Blitzz said:


> Honestly, you only paid attention to the takedown attempts. Please rewatch the fight.


No, I also paid attention to him not landing any strikes in the clinch.


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## HellRazor (Sep 24, 2006)

machidaisgod said:


> All Randy did was hold him to the cage


Couture his a LOT of hooks and elbows to Vera's head in the clinch. Those aren't power shots, but most judges in most organization give a lot of credit for head shots, even weak ones.

Brandon Vera has been in the UFC a while. He knows the judging. His corner is yelling at him to get off the fence. Did Vera do ANYTHING in an attempt to WIN the fight? Even when he had mount, he took no risks at all, and let COuture tie him up.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

all i got from this fight is Brandon Vera is in no way ready for the top tier LHWs and Randy may be nearing his end.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

Look, Vera did nothing in round 1, easily Randy's.

Vera easily took round 2 because of the knock down.

Randy took round 3 because of control and practicall outstriking him. He beat him up with the dirty boxing, and landed som solid strikes when they were apart. Hell, at one point, I even thought that Randy would drop Vera and finish him. 

This was Randy's fight. Yes, it could have gone to Vera as well, but a decision for Randy isn't even questionable IMO.


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## RushFan (Aug 25, 2007)

Even though I lost $350 on this fight I don't think it was a terrible decision. 

Two points:
1. Vera should have finished the fight in round 2. He had Randy seriously hurt but just decided to flop into his full guard and let Randy recover. Vera could have easily found a more dominant position on the ground and explode with GnP or at the very least get the ref to stand Randy back up. Just blatant inexperience from Vera and a sign that he doesn't have the killer instinct to become an elite fighter.

2. If I have to watch another Couture fight I may literally gouge out my own eyes to avoid the misery. The judges threaten to compromise the entertainment value of MMA if they continue to reward fighters who merely hold their opponent against the cage.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

If you don't think it was a terrible decision, why do you blame the judges for awarding Randy the decision for "holding his opponent against the cage?"


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

Personally I think Vera won, but it doesn't surprise me that Couture won the decision. It wasn't a robbery, because for the most part Couture did control the fight, but at the same time did nothing with that control. He inflicted no damage, and basically stayed and prayed (instead of LNP). The only real damage done was done by Vera. My gripe isn't with Randy, but with what the judges view as winning rounds.

I feel Vera's pain, and IMO thought he won that fight, but at the same token his strategy for the most part sucked balls and he has only himself to blame for the lost. In most of the cases with the exception of the beginning of rd 3 after he hit Randy and Randy would come forward, rather than backing away, he would clinch with him. I mean WTF?


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

I thought Randy won via weak ass performance just trying to win rounds and not finish a fight or even try and hurt him. But he took the first round and the third round. The ref seemed bias towards Randy letting him stay against the cage while doing nothing but hold him there and then stand it up quickly when Vera is on top even though he was also not doing anything but I think it was still a quick standup. All in all a bad fight.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Soakked said:


> Personally I think Vera won, but it doesn't surprise me that Couture won the decision. It wasn't a robbery, because for the most part Couture did control the fight, but at the same time did nothing with that control. He inflicted no damage, and basically stayed and prayed (instead of LNP). The only real damage done was done by Vera. My gripe isn't with Randy, but with what the judges view as winning rounds.
> 
> I feel Vera's pain, and IMO thought he won that fight, but at the same token his strategy for the most part sucked balls and he has only himself to blame for the lost. In most of the cases with the exception of the beginning of rd 3 after he hit Randy and Randy would come forward, rather than backing away, he would clinch with him. I mean WTF?


Quoted for truth and insight. And for not getting all spazley and confrontational.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

As they say, never let a fight go to the judges. 

While I think it was close, the thing that pissed me off is Vera never tried to break the clinch. It was like watching the Sylvia fight all over again, for some reason he seems to think if he clinches first he is winning or something. When he was in control he should have pushed off and started striking again. This is as much Vera's fault as it is the judges. I was rooting for him, but he seriously needs to learn that you don't have to win the clinch game, sometimes body/head kicks are enough.


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## wakeboy (Sep 14, 2009)

What frustrates me is lyoto stuffed shoguns take downs and won... vera stuffs 5 plus take downs and loses... I really hate how this sport can be scored so differently on different nights.

Honestly in the third round vera landed some brutal kicks.. got a take down and got mount. 

Lets not forget this is a fight and not a pushing war.

Just because its randy couture doesn't mean you let the guy lean against his opponent for four faaking minutes without making an attempt to strike. The ref also reffed the fight based on coutures gp which was bullshit

I can see why they gave it to randy but i still think its bullshit...


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## RushFan (Aug 25, 2007)

Davisty69 said:


> If you don't think it was a terrible decision, why do you blame the judges for awarding Randy the decision for "holding his opponent against the cage?"


The judges did a decent job but it's their almost robotic interpretation of the rules that kind of annoys me. Everyone knows that the current framework of UFC judging is almost obsolete so a common sense approach that plugs the gaps in the current guidelines should be encouraged. 
It's far from an ideal situation so I guess the sooner that UFC management gets of their ass and officially tweaks the judging system the better. 
Hopefully a new judging system would penalise a fighter that continually placed the fight into a situation that required the ref to intervene and restart the action. Randy's game plan was so negative that the ref had to intervene multiple times.


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## veilside23 (Jan 8, 2007)

i just hope that being a filipino didnt affect the decision


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

vera said it himself. he is pissed, but needs to move on.
he also said that his biggest mistake was letting the fight go to the judges. it's to much to say he got robbed, but that just shows: finnish the fight and leave no doubt.

i'm curious now: what's next for randy ?
will he get a top 5 fighter?


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Yeah Randy definitely won the Hugging match. 

Come on man Randy did nothing but hold him on the cage, its BS if you think that's enough to win a fight, i think you should actually lose points for stalling the fight, although the ref should of separated them more often. Brandon was close finishing randy and that should be enough to win that fight considering how much of it was stalled by randy.

I Can see how people can score for Randy because he technically controlled Vera a lot in the fight, but i think its BS how people can win fights like that. they may aswell had an arm wrestle in the middle of the cage, because won the fight based on strength alone.


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## capjo (Jun 7, 2009)

I don't agree. Randy didn't win but at the same time for someone as young as Vera against someone as old as Randy, Vera should have been able to do a lot more to capitalize and take control of that fight.

I actually have no interest watching Vera fight anymore. I put him in the same category with Stephan Bonnar and Lebin. I don't think these guys should even be considered gate keepers. 

...and to see guys like Hendo more than likely leaving while we have to watch these guys fight, sickens me.

Too much bloat in the UFC.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

Soakked said:


> Personally I think Vera won, but it doesn't surprise me that Couture won the decision. It wasn't a robbery, because for the most part Couture did control the fight, but at the same time did nothing with that control. He inflicted no damage, and basically stayed and prayed (instead of LNP). The only real damage done was done by Vera. My gripe isn't with Randy, but with what the judges view as winning rounds.
> 
> I feel Vera's pain, and IMO thought he won that fight, but at the same token his strategy for the most part sucked balls and he has only himself to blame for the lost. In most of the cases with the exception of the beginning of rd 3 after he hit Randy and Randy would come forward, rather than backing away, he would clinch with him. I mean WTF?


Yeah I didnt understand what Vera was trying to do when he wasnt keeping his distance when they were in the middle of the ring. I started to think at the end of the last round when Vera had Randy against the cage with double underhooks he was trying to prove a point by taking Randy down with Greco technique. Vera could have won convicingly with a different gameplan. Also I think the refs let Randy use the cage way too long! I mean if he aint getting anywhere why let him PnP? If it were a different fighter ill bet they would have seperated them sooner.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

jcal said:


> Yeah I didnt understand what Vera was trying to do when he wasnt keeping his distance when they were in the middle of the ring. I started to think at the end of the last round when Vera had Randy against the cage with double underhooks he was trying to prove a point by taking Randy down with Greco technique. Vera could have won convicingly with a different gameplan. Also I think the refs let Randy use the cage way too long! I mean if he aint getting anywhere why let him PnP? If it were a different fighter ill bet they would have seperated them sooner.


I wish the ref had separated them sooner, and more often. I love Randy but this is a lame victory for him IMO.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

Just got back from Manchester and seeing the event live nd i dont see ho you cn say Randy didn't win. The dude dominated round 1 lost round 2 nd then had some good flurries plus controlled 4 minutes of the entire last round for the win. Vera landing 2 powerful kicks and getting 1 takedown doesnt outscore an entire round of dominant positioning and dirty boxing. 

Vera defintly took round 2 but there relly no argument for him winning the first or the 3rd other than bias, being uneducated on how the sport works or mybe being cecil pepils.


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## zath the champ (Feb 13, 2008)

I had it 29/28 Vera.

Couture's "control strategy" was boring and did not threaten Vera at any point in the fight; hell he didn't even rough Vera up.


Anyone else feel bad for Vera?


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## zath the champ (Feb 13, 2008)

EDIT Double post.


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## streetpunk08 (Jul 15, 2006)

I really wanted Vera to win because the way Randy won is a disgrace imho but I knew Randy would get the decision because it's Randy and the judging criteria. I was screaming at the ref to break them up, if I was refereing that bout I would have broken them up every 25-30 seconds in the 2nd and 3rd rounds you have to do something and Randy for the most part did absolutely nothing, no strikes and hardly any legit TD attempts. I only saw the fight once but it looked to me as in the 2nd and 3rd Randy wasn't even throwing punches or knees from the clinch he was just standing there leaning on Vera.


Also it reminded me of that one Tyson fight i can't recall the opponent but the guy kept clinching with Mike and refused to fight, the ref DQ'd the guy. IMO the ref should have done more to break this up but I am so pissed by how Randy fought last night I think he should of had points deducted for stalling or possibly DQ'd or the fight scored a NC and I've always been a Couture fan, that performance was a disgrace


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## Blitzz (Apr 13, 2009)

I thought Randy was going to drop Vera at one point in the third. Couture won the 1st and 3rd rounds.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

zath the champ said:


> I had it 29/28 Vera.
> 
> Couture's "control strategy" was boring and did not threaten Vera at any point in the fight; hell he didn't even rough Vera up.
> 
> ...


So basiclly your admitting you have zero understnding of ho a bout is scored? This sounds like something Cecil Pepils would say in all honesty. It does not mtter whether or not you found it entertaining.

The fact is Randy was the only one mounting offense in round 1 and ontop of that was controlling Vera for the entire 5 minutes without Vera coming close to threatening Randy.

10-9 Randy.

In round 2 Vera outstruck Couture even though Couture did have some good strikes aswell but the body kick won the round for Vera. 

10-9 Vera

3rd round Randy controlls the fight for 4 minutes lnding great body shots and uppercuts from the clinch before lnding some bombs on Vera backing him to the fence nd nerly dropping him. Yes Vera landed 2 hard kicks in this exchange and in the lst 40 seconds got a TD but tht simply doesn't outweigh the fact that Randy nearly dropped him and controlled his ass like he was a child.

10-9 Randy

You CANNOT score a fight for the other fighter just because you didn't like the way his opponent tacticly dismantled him. 

I dont understand Rogan's comments either sying well if you look at it objectively (Which by the looks of it the judges did) then Randy won and this is how the fight SHOULD be scored.

For Rogan to claim Vera should have won because he did more visible damage completly undermines the whole scoring system that's in place. This fight was FAR from a robbery and IMO everyones is just uppity on judges lately and using them for scapegots when fight doesn't go the way they think it should have.

Obviously certain things need revision but it's not as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Also Joe Rogan waved at me and my wife during an intermission so i slightly forgive him lol.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

Ill go with what fightmetric.com says, not what a bunch of biased fans see or say. And that includes me too! They take the fight and break it down, piece by piece and they do count damage! They have Vera the winner barely. Everytime I see a fight that is really Questionable or a complete ripoff, I turn to their analysis of each fight and they havent been wrong in my book yet. And some of the fights I thought were robbery were Akiyama and Belcher, I thought belcher won but after looking at FM I understand why Akiyama won. Same goes for Shogun-Machida, and Hammil- Bisping and Bonnar-Jardine. Its really hard to argue with there outcomes cause they score it with the 10 point must system. Another questonable fight was Tito-Forrest. I thought it was closer than it was.


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

vader said:


> I agree! Randy won, heres how I scored it.
> 
> Randy won round 1.
> Vera won Round 2.
> Randy won Round 3. Here is why- He controled the round and landed some shots as well. Vera got a take down, but randy also escaped. I would of gave Vera a couple for the take down and one for randy for escaping. Giving that Randy controled the round, I give round 3 to Randy.


^This^

If Vera had done something on ground I would have given round 3 to him, but Randy controlled most of the round 3, took couple body kicks then got taken down and got back up almost instantly. 
No way it was a clear easy decision and I could have seen it go either way, but I don't think it was a robbery like Machida vs. Shogun was. Randy did control most of round 3 excluding those couple kicks and the takedown that did no damage and thats what won the fight this time.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

jcal said:


> Ill go with what fightmetric.com says, not what a bunch of biased fans see or say. And that includes me too! They take the fight and break it down, piece by piece and they do count damage! They have Vera the winner barely. Everytime I see a fight that is really Questionable or a complete ripoff, I turn to their analysis of each fight and they havent been wrong in my book yet. And some of the fights I thought were robbery were Akiyama and Belcher, I thought belcher won but after looking at FM I understand why Akiyama won. Same goes for Shogun-Machida, and Hammil- Bisping and Bonnar-Jardine. Its really hard to argue with there outcomes cause they score it with the 10 point must system. Another questonable fight was Tito-Forrest. I thought it was closer than it was.


Fight Metric is based on peoples oppinions just as any assessment of any fight is. Fightmetric also generally leans tords populr oppinion. People need to stop bringing it up s if it's infllible system in hich to determine the outcome of fight because there is no true ay to measure things they list such as poer punches the like. 

It all comes don to someones oppinion at the end of the day. I break don't fight piece by piece and in unbiased fashion yet i havent a different result than them. They are just faceless website which relies solely on internet arguments such as this to keep up there daily click/hit ratio because they seemingly have a system. But you kno what so does Cecil Pepils and look how that's turned out.:thumb02:


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## cabby (Sep 15, 2006)

Yeah he won but how boring was that shit. He won by octagon control alone lol:thumbsdown: Half the fight was him leaning against Vera doing absolutely nothing............He threw a few punches sure but what did he really do? 

Vera pissed me off, he'd create distance and start getting something going for himself then he'd let Couture get close again when he could've clearly shoved him off or gotten away from him.............

Sad fight for both guys


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## catosynister (Nov 15, 2009)

I think this victory had everything to do with reputation. Yeah Randy had Vera pressed against the cage, but the only real damage done was by Vera. Let's not forget the mount and the few times that Vera switched postitions and it was Randy with his back to the cage. 

This was a reputation victory, the old man won because he has won more in the past. But I don't blame him for it, I blame Brandon for not getting out of the clinch and countering Randy's game plan...


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## WouldLuv2FightU (Jul 17, 2006)

This fight reminded me of Guida vs Diaz. I don't know who to give it to. My bias in the Guida fight told me that Nate won. But my bias in the Vera fight tells me that Vera lost. (I like Nate, dislike Guida and Vera, and indifferent on Couture)


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## Seperator88 (Jul 12, 2009)

I think it's hilarious that Vera said,"you gotta beat the man to be the man" yet there is still all this complaining and controversy. I agree with the decision, but that's like, my opinion, man. Even if Vera did edge out the decision, he still didn't BEAT Randy. 

Oh Brandon, you're upset about the decision, you're sad because you thought you won? Should've fought harder *****


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Emericanaddict said:


> Fight Metric is based on peoples oppinions just as any assessment of any fight is. Fightmetric also generally leans tords populr oppinion. People need to stop bringing it up s if it's infllible system in hich to determine the outcome of fight because there is no true ay to measure things they list such as poer punches the like.
> 
> It all comes don to someones oppinion at the end of the day. I break don't fight piece by piece and in unbiased fashion yet i havent a different result than them. They are just faceless website which relies solely on internet arguments such as this to keep up there daily click/hit ratio because they seemingly have a system. But you kno what so does Cecil Pepils and look how that's turned out.:thumb02:



is something wrong with your "w" key? were you drunk when you wrote that? i thought they speak english in wales?


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

Lol sorry no my keyboard is all messed up. My brother in law knocked some pop over the laptop now the A,W,K and space bar stick like mofo and sometimes i just dont catch it or cnt be bothered to fix it lol sorry. Also im American (from Illinois)I just live in Wales cause my wife is well Welsh.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

HexRei said:


> is something wrong with your "w" key? were you drunk when you wrote that? i thought they speak english in wales?


Well, to be fair, they also speak Welsh.

Can't type Welsh w/out the w key.


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## Lock Bresnar (Nov 16, 2009)

I would have been pissed had I paid to see the main event live. I figured Randy had lost for sure, but leave it to the judges to make the wrong call. Not nearly as bad as Shogun v. Machida, but still a disappointment for sure.


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## out 4 the count (Oct 13, 2008)

I think this whole debate boils down to...

Some people think Randy controlled Vera by holding him against the Cage.

Other people think Vera controlled Randy by not letting himself get taken down, which I believe was Randy's intent.

I mean Randy did control the fight because Vera couldn't get out, but also Randy couldn't enact his game plan of taking him down because Vera wouldn't let him.

In my humble opinion Vera had the better of the fight. But I can really see why people would go the other way.

It's fights like these that highlight the stupidity of the 10 point must in 3 round MMA fights.


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## HellRazor (Sep 24, 2006)

joshua7789 said:


> No, I also paid attention to him not landing any strikes in the clinch.


Randy landed his first strike in the clinch, a right hook to the body, 11 seconds into the fights. In the first two minutes, I saw four or five knees strikes from Randy, in the clinch, in the first two minutes. And this is while Couture is trying to get a body lock and throw Vera.

Now take a look at http://fightmetric.com/fights/Couture-Vera.html

They recorded Couture _landing_ 46 hand strikes. How many did he even THROW when he wasn't clinching? Ten? Maybe fifteen. Fightmretic/com is just somebody's opinion, but they aren't _blind_. Neither are the refs. Couture landed, in the clinch, and landed a lot. Not what I'd call power shots, but I still wouldn't want those elbows upside my head.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

I agree, war Handy.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

Very dull fight, until Brandon gave him a sweet, but short lesson in Muay Thai mid second round. Otherwise, it was an uneventful "fight" mainly involving Randy giving Brandon his patented version of the vertical lay n pray against the cage.

I mean seriously, Brandon should've seen that coming from a mile away. His TDD was awesome, but there must have been some way to maintain space between himself and Couture. Goodness, Vera's game plan always seems to stink.


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## HellRazor (Sep 24, 2006)

out 4 the count said:


> It's fights like these that highlight the stupidity of the 10 point must in 3 round MMA fights.


Well, it might as well be the 2 point must system, as they use it. When's the last time you saw a 10-7 round? All a guy has to do to get eight points is get to the bell conscious.


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## out 4 the count (Oct 13, 2008)

michelangelo said:


> Very dull fight, until Brandon gave him a sweet, but short lesson in Muay Thai mid second round. Otherwise, it was an uneventful "fight" mainly involving Randy giving Brandon his patented version of the vertical lay n pray against the cage.
> 
> I mean seriously, Brandon should've seen that coming from a mile away. His TDD was awesome, but there must have been some way to maintain space between himself and Couture. Goodness, *Vera's game plan always seems to stink*.


The guy is a real enigma, has great technique and a perfect physique for a Muay Thai fighter. Sometimes he mauls people with devastating Muay Thai and other times just gasses out and takes a bit of a beating. It is all very strange.


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

randy failed to get the fight on the floor thats wuts he was after.... failed vera all the way!!


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

After watching this fight yet again, I paid attention to something that I didnt notice the first two times that makes me a little less irate about this decision. Right after the fight ended, Vera looked like he was about ready to keel over and die. I suppose that points to Randy having more control over the fight then I originally gave him credit for. I think that Vera was in great shape, but I can give Randy some more credit then I had at first becasue apparently he was wearing Vera down a lot more then I thought he was. Still not psyched about the decision, but a little less angry about it.


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## dpt09 (Nov 16, 2009)

If this were a true fight, Vera would destroy Randy. Please. Give me a break. I like Randy (kinda) but seriously dude, your old and boring beyond belief.


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## Judoka (Feb 23, 2007)

I think Couture won. Wasn't pretty or exciting but did what he needed to do.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

YOURMOMWASHERE said:


> With UFC judging yes couture won, they really value octagon control. Overall it was a shitty fight but come on vera, that is what you get for letting randy muscle you against the cage like that.
> 
> If this fight happened in the square ring like pride randy wouldve gotten knocked out in the first 30 seconds. Oh well.


If this is the case, then no one has anything to complain about.

I scored the fight for Couture, but I admit I wouldn't have been all that surprised to hear Vera took the decision in a split or a majority.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

here is how I had it and why.

I had randy winning round one 
Randy: octagon control and takedowns
Vera: striking

then I had vera winning round two
Vera: striking and octagon control
Randy: nothing

Then I had randy taking the final round 
Randy: striking and octagon control 
Vera: takedowns

*winner: 29 28 randy*


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## zath the champ (Feb 13, 2008)

Emericanaddict said:


> So basiclly your admitting you have zero understnding of ho a bout is scored? This sounds like something Cecil Pepils would say in all honesty. It does not mtter whether or not you found it entertaining. I totally disagree. What I find entertaining completely dictates what the outcome of a fight should be.:sarcastic12:
> 
> The fact is Randy was the only one mounting offense* we disagree in what constitues offence in round 1 and ontop of that was controlling Vera for the entire 5 minutes without Vera coming close to threatening Randy.
> 
> ...


First off, I'm not usually a grammar/spelling Nazi. Your post, however, made my eyes bleed. 


That was an extremely underwhelming performance, that made Guida look like a finisher by comparison.


I am not a judge, but I am an educated fan. Vera had Randy in danger several times during the fight, tried to finish, and did more damage. 

Scorecards do not mean much these days.


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## xbroseph (Nov 16, 2009)

zath the champ said:


> First off, I'm not usually a grammar/spelling Nazi. Your post, however, made my eyes bleed.
> 
> 
> That was an extremely underwhelming performance, that made Guida look like a finisher by comparison.
> ...


I dont see where Vera did more damage. Aside from the body shots that dropped Couture in the 2nd he was never hurt. He got a small cut over or around the eye but that was from a clashing of heads and did not cause any problems. Not saying Vera was hurt but in a fight like that you've got to score the fight on points. 29-28 Randy Couture. Randy winning the 1st and 3rd rounds through control and dirty boxing, Vera winning the 2nd due to strikes. 

Vera seem to either have a bad strategy or sway away from it because he couldn't get anything going. Aside from not maintaining a take down Couture did exactly what he wanted to do which was control his opponent using his wrestling. Done deal.


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## yourtenderloins (Aug 26, 2009)

And in all of this Vera continues to prove he is an enigma. A guy that appears to have the skills of an incredibly talented fighter but never actually shows it. It's a flash in the pan with him. Either that "flash" ends the fight and he wins looking impressive or the other fighter overcomes it and Vera bores the shit out of you for the rest of the fight. I said it before, and I will say it again. Vera stinks.


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## DahStoryTella (Jul 11, 2009)

Randall won imo, which is wack because I wanted Vera to win. Oh well though, good fight either way.


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## cabby (Sep 15, 2006)

Randy won for sure. Vera looked surprised that he didn't win lol, did he really think that staying close to Randy was gonna work in his favor? :confused05:


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

zath the champ said:


> First off, I'm not usually a grammar/spelling Nazi. Your post, however, made my eyes bleed.
> 
> 
> That was an extremely underwhelming performance, that made Guida look like a finisher by comparison.
> ...


You once again hve gone out of your way to show how inable you are to judge any person, or contest between people. If you had bothered to read the posts following you would have noted that I mentioned my keyboard is all jacked up because pop ws spilt on it week or so ago.

Tht being said the fact tht you have to resort to calling someone out on grammr because you can't make a solid point for Vera winning the fight is pretty lame.

Ver had Randy in danger 1 time when he landed that powerful body kick in the 2nd round. The Round which he won and i won't argue that. The only Damage vera did was from that and 2 other kicks which followed in the 3rd. That being sid Randy outstruck Vera in the third aswell aswell completely controlled him.

Once again whether or not his style of fighting pleases you bears nothing on the scoring of the bout. Fact is Randy dominated 2 out of 3 rounds scoring him well earned Unanimous Decision. 

You are far from educated enough to make a call on who should win a sanctioned bout. Especially when the judges must undergo rigorous testing,researching and training to obtain a license in order to do so.

You are also proven to be far from educated enough to make a judgement on me or my grammar as you could'nt even follow the structure of reading within this forum thread in which i specified the issues with my keyboard.

I tried to keep this post spelling error free so that you can comprehend what ive said but once again i will reiterate that some of my keys are not working properly the moment, and I don't have the time or desire to fix every error that occurs do to the considerable mount of time this would take on my behalf.

Last but not least let's stop flaming each other now because I know better nd so should you. I apologise for letting myself get heated and I'll try to remain on topic from here on out but you should aswell my friend.


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## cabby (Sep 15, 2006)

yourtenderloins said:


> And in all of this Vera continues to prove he is an enigma. A guy that appears to have the skills of an incredibly talented fighter but never actually shows it. It's a flash in the pan with him. Either that "flash" ends the fight and he wins looking impressive or the other fighter overcomes it and Vera bores the shit out of you for the rest of the fight. I said it before, and I will say it again. Vera stinks.


I actually though Vera was the one who brought the action. When he was actually using his brain he was creating distance and landing some nice shots. Randy was..........well...........doing his thing. Press into the cage blah blah blah, single punch, press again and again and again.


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## Icculus (Oct 4, 2009)

joshua7789 said:


> Randy wasnt even in complete control of the clinch, got almost everyone of his takedowns stuffed, Vera dropped him and the ref stood them up way to fast, Vera had full mount in the third and did the only damage in the entire fight. I dont consider clinching to be significant if you cant do shit with it. Getting your offense shut down doesnt equal a win, Vera put out the only real offense of the fight.


This^
I dont feel like finding a link to the rules, but I thought I read that stuffing takedowns is also octagon control. 
Damage is what should matter most in a fight, it blows my mind that so many can disagree with that simple premise.


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## xbroseph (Nov 16, 2009)

Icculus said:


> This^
> I dont feel like finding a link to the rules, but I thought I read that stuffing takedowns is also octagon control.
> Damage is what should matter most in a fight, it blows my mind that so many can disagree with that simple premise.


I completely disagree. How many times have we seen guys take more damage but come back and win the fight? Nogueira obviously took more damage when he faced Tim Sylvia but he hooked a sub and won the fight. Fedor took more damage in the Brett Rogers fight but came back and knocked him out. Its not all about damage. There is more to it which is why they have the scores for takedowns and control. As someone said earlier Couture was hurt 1 time the whole fight. And at that he recovered quickly because Vera couldnt finish him. You cant give Vera the "W" for that one moment. The round yes, but not the fight.


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## zath the champ (Feb 13, 2008)

Emericanaddict said:


> You once again hve gone out of your way to show how inable you are to judge any person, or contest between people. If you had bothered to read the posts following you would have noted that I mentioned my keyboard is all jacked up because pop ws spilt on it week or so ago.
> 
> Tht being said the fact tht you have to resort to calling someone out on grammr because you can't make a solid point for Vera winning the fight is pretty lame.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.


My concern is not really who won by points. 

MMA is an evolving sport. The fact that a fighter can win based purely based on control has always been constant, but is getting worse as the sport grows. This is where I am going with the post:

In the past year we have seen more and more fighters go for the W rather than the finish. Honestly, what made you a fan of this sport? Was it Shamrock vs Frye? Hell no. Wandy knocking heads off, Gracie chocking people out, Fedor pounding heads into the mat: are examples of what a fight should look like.

I would like to see the scoring system overhauled. Until then, I will always support the fighters who engage and try to finish. Some fights won't be the most exciting, but I would rather see the fighters who come to fight get the nod when their opponent does not come to finish.

And on a final note:

The reason I gave it to Vera was the opening strikes of Round 1. They were the only significant damage of the round.

Obviously the body kick takes Round 2.

I know most won't agree with that; just my opinion.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

Fair enough and I completely agree we need an overhaul of the scoring system but right now this is wht we've got and it's how we have to score fights.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

look its this simple i look at it this way there are 3 points in each round 

striking 
grappling 
octagon control 

in order to win the round you must win two out of the 3 and randy did that in the first and second round. 

unfortunately damage is not much of a factor although it should be.


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## creotine (Mar 4, 2007)

People give way too much attention to the fact that brandon hurt randy in the 2nd that it seems no one noticed that randy was landing strikes in the fight. Maybe not as often as people wanted and obviously didn't do any damage but he wasn't just sitting there trying a lay and pray tactic as some have suggested. Randy has never been that type of fighter, as anyone whose ever watched his fights would know. Vera did just a much of nothing in this fight as randy did. It just so happens when vera finally did something he hurt randy but he in no way outworked randy. The fact is they both did little to win this fight.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

I watched the fight again today. I dont think Randy even really deserved the first round. Yeah, he had "octagon control" but Vera landed more strikes standing up, landed more strikes in the clinch, stuffed four out of Randy's five takedowns and popped up immediately when he did get taken down. That round should have been a draw, it wasnt fair for Randy to take it for doing one thing right while Vera was superior in every other aspect in that round.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

There is more to scoring a fight than Octogon control. You know like knockdowns, getting the mount. Things like that.


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## Wookie (Jul 20, 2008)

Randy won that fight, he lost round 2, but he won the fight. He even said after the fight that it wasn't exciting. I thought it was one of the worst main events in recent memory. Vera could have one the fight if he wouldn't have played into Randy's game letting him hold him against the fence the entire fight.


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