# Why do so few people use the arm triangle?



## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

I don't claim to be a bjj expert, but I was wondering why the move isn't used more. It seems like the least risky submission to go for from the mount. With and armbar or kimura you have to sacrifice your position to go for it. With the arm triangle you can pretty much lock it in before you have to give up the mount.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

It's just kind of hard to lock it, and pretty easy to defend. If you watch Schafer vs ALexander he had to lock Houston's left arm way across his own face to make sure the hold could be put in tight. I think experts see that coming and defend it.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

Thanks for the reply. It just seems like "experts" will see almost any submission coming and the arm triangle has less risk than the others that you can use from that position.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

True. I'll admit I have only spent a couple dozen hours workin jitz in my life so hopefully someone with more experience will chime in


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## DMan22 (Mar 29, 2007)

Again not an expert here but I do train fairly regularly.

I have always been taught that an Arm triangle unless you are exceptionally good/strong/fast is very hard to lock in.

Much like other people are saying it is fairly easy to see unless hidden VERY well. A first sign is that your arm is getting put accross your lower face/neck. Once that is even STARTING to happend people tend to react to stop it.

I personally think that this is another sign that HA is not training as much ground game as he claims since this is a fairly low level technique trained to people who are training BJJ or submission grappling. In every place I have trained its extremly standard to learn and train much like the arm bar or americana. 

Hope this helps.


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## Tripod87 (Dec 30, 2007)

I think you'd be surprised to know that a lot of people might actually indeed be going for arm triangles, but they are stopped. Like you said, they are safe and don't sacrifice position, so my question to you is, do you ever notice people going for arm triangle but end up not getting it? I don't think it's a matter of people not going for it, I think it's more a matter of people not seeing the fighters go for it.


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## Meshuggeth (May 26, 2008)

Only times I really can think of seeing it (might be forgetting) were against BJJ deficient guys like Houston and Sokoudjou.


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## wallysworld191 (Mar 28, 2007)

easy to defend and not everyone can do it well, its just not that great a move all around, its kinda low level stuff.


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## SuzukS (Nov 11, 2006)

The main reason would be that from a technical stand point it isn't really easy to properly execute. There are a number of relatively small details that are easy to miss, yet are important in properly locking the choke in. For example, your head should be right on the opponents shoulder, and if it is too high up their arm then there won't be nearly enough pressure for the tap, and of course when applying the choke you should have your body weight over the opponent, not just to his side (which is a mistake that a lot of people can make, even at the higher levels). I've often came into perfect position for an arm triangle, only to screw up some of the finer details of the choke, which prevented me from getting the tap. Still, it's probably one of the least risky moves to attempt from mount since you don't give up your position (much) and if you screw up you should be able to regain side control.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

Meshuggeth said:


> Only times I really can think of seeing it (might be forgetting) were against BJJ deficient guys like Houston and Sokoudjou.


BJ Subbed Duane Ludwig with one when he was fighting for K-1.


Thanks for all the replies guys.


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

The arm triangles and guilitines are hard to lock unless your really strong or a lot stronger then the other person. You see them a lot more at lower level BJJ because they dont know how to defend against it. As you progress in grappeling and competition becomes better it isnt so much about the submissions you know as how you can set them up. 

Knowing all of the subs is pointless if you cant set them up properly with lock flows. The problem with the arm triangle is you dont really have that its hard to set up and flow with so a lot of people dont use it. Its one of those submisions that you can only use when the situation presents itself. I use it every now and then in mma and in grappeling.

The best time to go for it is if your ground and pounding and the guy lifts his arm to block most guys will work a arm bar i will go for the arm triangle because if I fail I dont lose anything and im in a better position. In grappeling you really have to wait for the situation to present itself or you wont get it and you have to be fast about it because its an easy choke to negate.


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

wallysworld191 said:


> easy to defend and not everyone can do it well, its just not that great a move all around, *its kinda low level stuff*.


Cruz tapped Werdum with one of those in ADCC... Actually I think the Arm triangle is a pretty common submission among the BJJ experts (nota that for instance Eddie Bravo puts a lot of weight into it as well). The arm triangle is all about set ups. 

Look at Thales Leites! He's got a lot of Arm Triangle tapouts in MMA. Not really low level in my oppinion.


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

joppp said:


> Cruz tapped Werdum with one of those in ADCC... Actually I think the Arm triangle is a pretty common submission among the BJJ experts (nota that for instance Eddie Bravo puts a lot of weight into it as well). The arm triangle is all about set ups.
> 
> Look at Thales Leites! He's got a lot of Arm Triangle tapouts in MMA. Not really low level in my oppinion.


yeah its all about set ups, thats the difference between lower levels and higher levels. The move is hard to set up though you just really have to go for it when its available.


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

mrmyz said:


> The arm triangles and guilitines are hard to lock unless your really strong or a lot stronger then the other person. You see them a lot more at lower level BJJ because they dont know how to defend against it. As you progress in grappeling and competition becomes better it isnt so much about the submissions you know as how you can set them up.
> 
> Knowing all of the subs is pointless if you cant set them up properly with lock flows. The problem with the arm triangle is you dont really have that its hard to set up and flow with so a lot of people dont use it. Its one of those submisions that you can only use when the situation presents itself. I use it every now and then in mma and in grappeling.
> 
> The best time to go for it is if your ground and pounding and the guy lifts his arm to block most guys will work a arm bar i will go for the arm triangle because if I fail I dont lose anything and im in a better position. In grappeling you really have to wait for the situation to present itself or you wont get it and you have to be fast about it because its an easy choke to negate.


This is my favorite choke. I set it up a couple of ways...1) ride up high in the full mount forcing his arms up then post an arm next to his head and the other under the arm/elbow I'm attacking. Once I have him somewhat stabilized then I shift my hips back down and start to lock it in. 2) If I have a guy in the S guard going for an armbar and he is trying to not give me his arm by pulling it across his chest I'll try and push down on his elbow and grab the wrist from the other side of his head or neck (I use my body weight to crunch his arm down also)then I'll let him flatten back out and I've got his arm across his face ready to go. It is easy to defend though and I rarely get this choke on a blue belt or higher.


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> This is my favorite choke. I set it up a couple of ways...1) ride up high in the full mount forcing his arms up then post an arm next to his head and the other under the arm/elbow I'm attacking. Once I have him somewhat stabilized then I shift my hips back down and start to lock it in. 2) If I have a guy in the S guard going for an armbar and he is trying to not give me his arm by pulling it across his chest I'll try and push down on his elbow and grab the wrist from the other side of his head or neck (I use my body weight to crunch his arm down also)then I'll let him flatten back out and I've got his arm across his face ready to go. It is easy to defend though and I rarely get this choke on a blue belt or higher.


yeah blue belt and higher would make sense. its an entry level technique


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

mrmyz said:


> yeah blue belt and higher would make sense. its an entry level technique


I've been told though that alot of the higher level BJJ practitioners revert to simpler techniques as they get up in rank because of the effectiveness. I think it all comes back to setups and the better you can setup the move the better it works. It makes me think of Joe Stevenson and how he uses the kimura and guilitine.


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> I've been told though that alot of the higher level BJJ practitioners revert to simpler techniques as they get up in rank because of the effectiveness. I think it all comes back to setups and the better you can setup the move the better it works. It makes me think of Joe Stevenson and how he uses the kimura and guilitine.


Set ups and timing. The problem with this choke is you have to be really fast with it and its easy to get out of. Even with good set ups higher level guys will have an ideao what your going for because of experience.

With guilitines and Kimoras theres more room to work with. A kimora attempt from the guard will set you up for so many things its not even funny. My favorite lock flow is when you go for the sweep, fail go for the kimora and when they guard against the kimora instantly go for the guilitine. Even if you cant get the guilitine sunk in you still have one more sweep you can work with the guilitine grip.

Arm triangle is great but its one of those subs that has a time and a place. You have to know when you can use it or else it wont work. Like Babalu. 

If your a stronger guy there are ways to muscle it in though. Ive been able to force it down on smaller guys by using positioning, leverage and power. Then even if they block the choke I will keep curling in to the point it doesnt even make a difference.

It really depends on the situation.



*Bassically to give the poster a short answer*

Most people dont know how or when to use it effectively.


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## SuzukS (Nov 11, 2006)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> I've been told though that alot of the higher level BJJ practitioners revert to simpler techniques as they get up in rank because of the effectiveness. I think it all comes back to setups and the better you can setup the move the better it works. It makes me think of Joe Stevenson and how he uses the kimura and guilitine.


This is true, when looking at high level competitions such as the Brasilerios or the Mundials, you can see that some of the most common submissions in the black belts divisions are armbars, triangles and other basic moves.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

I'm surprised we don't see more arm-triangle attempts from the bottom personally, they're way easier to set-up, especially when defending strikes.


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## Robbsville (Sep 13, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> I'm surprised we don't see more arm-triangle attempts from the bottom personally, they're way easier to set-up, especially when defending strikes.


I've had that done to me a few times in training, but I think a lot of people feel uncomfortable when trying to lock it in quickly from the top.


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

i really like the move...i wish it were used more often


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

Isn't Vitor Riberio the master of arm triangles? And yeah your really missing it, a lot of people use arm triangles (look at Sherks record for example). 

If anything why don't more people go for gogoplatas.


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

GKY said:


> Isn't Vitor Riberio the master of arm triangles? And yeah your really missing it, a lot of people use arm triangles (look at Sherks record for example).
> 
> *If anything why don't more people go for gogoplatas*.


i agree


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