# I have no respect for steroid fighters/suspected steroid fighters



## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

My friend and I were discussing the Silva/Evans fight, and we started lampooning how Silva was "kicking Rashad's ass" :sarcastic12:

then I read this article

http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog/cagewriter/post/Silva-s-odd-drug-test-may-save-Vera-from-choppin;_ylt=AiFBxXc4ML7aMbl1WJLE6u49Eo14?urn=mma-325340

Im sorry guys....but I have lost all respect for steroid users/former steroid users and think if they get caught they should be banned from the UFC for no longer than 5 years. I dont give a f*ck how much of a "fan favorite" they are or how much time they were given to "redeem" themselves in other fight organizations. Ban the bastards.

Josh Barnett, Sean Sherk, Stephen Bonnar, Thiago Silva....all have smeared their reputation beyond repair in my opinion. If you get caught you get caught, and there should be no harmless wrist slaps for that behavior.


----------



## dav35 (Sep 30, 2009)

You're entitled to your opinion. 

You give me the impression that you aren't very educated when it comes to steroids. You should do some research. They vary in their effects on the body and the benefits they provide. Not all steroids are used to be "hulk" or "superman". Many of them have great healing properties. It's only a matter of time before steroids are more prevalent in medicine to treat a variety of conditions and to facilitate healing from surgery. 

Regardless, I am in the camp that holds judgment unless I have all the facts. That's just me though.


----------



## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

There can be no uniform rule cos every case is different.

I would bet most of us on this forum at some point have consumed a substance banned by the athletic commission, it's very easy to do if you dont read everything that is in what you are eating and drinking.

Having the opinion of lifetime bans for all those caught with banned substances is a naive view IMO.


----------



## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

dav35 said:


> You're entitled to your opinion.
> 
> You give me the impression that you aren't very educated when it comes to steroids. You should do some research. They vary in their effects on the body and the benefits they provide. Not all steroids are used to be "hulk" or "superman". Many of them have great healing properties. It's only a matter of time before steroids are more prevalent in medicine to treat a variety of conditions and to facilitate healing from surgery.


Please dont be crass and try to imply that Im ignorant about steroids.

Post surgery is one thing.....but some of these dudes take steroid/steroid supplements 365, 24-7....and yes the area between using for injury is far different that using for performance based gains. Buts thats also where it gets cloudy. Fighters are athletes, and using a bunch of unnatural additives to your system to make you more resilient to injuries and get bigger is kinda snake-ish.

Besides....humans have been getting surgery for decades without the numerous steroid prescriptions. I remember training with Mac Danzig and he told me point blank *"dude its bullsh!t....majority of these guys want a quick, X-Men type of recovery, humans werent made to swallow a bunch of pills, our body is supposed to be our natural recovery system. You really dont need to get a bunch of junk pills from your doctor after surgery. Eat right and rest"*


----------



## dav35 (Sep 30, 2009)

Sekou said:


> Please dont be crass and try to imply that Im ignorant about steroids.
> 
> Post surgery is one thing.....but some of these dudes take steroid/steroid supplements 365, 24-7....and yes the area between using for injury is far different that using for performance based gains. Buts thats also where it gets cloudy. Fighters are athletes, and using a bunch of unnatural additives to your system to make you more resilient to injuries and get bigger is kinda snake-ish.
> 
> Besides....humans have been getting surgery for decades without the numerous steroid prescriptions. I remember training with Mac Danzig and he told me point blank *"dude its bullsh!t....majority of these guys want a quick, X-Men type of recovery, humans werent made to swallow a bunch of pills, our body is supposed to be our natural recovery system. You really dont need to get a bunch of junk pills from your doctor after surgery. Eat right and rest"*


I dont need to "imply". You clearly don't know much about steroids. I am okay with someone not understanding something, which is why I suggested that you do some research.

I am glad to hear that Mac Danzig is an MD. 

I wasn't just referring to surgeries. I am talking about general healing (e.g., from training). 

Regardless, I wasn't trying to be rude. I was trying to be helpful.


----------



## f4rtknock3r (Nov 22, 2010)

It is very disappointing that many fighters/athletes are roiding these days. Bj penn is one of the few who have spoken up about this problem but nothing was accomplished.


----------



## monkey024 (Apr 6, 2010)

I agree if you dont know alot about gear you shouldnt really be talking about the stuff in the first place.

First noone takes gear 24/7-365 days a year...it happens in bursts or cycles of a few weeks. 

Most if not all high tier athletes are on a form of steroid...there are even ways to get past screenings. 

Some gear has a half life of a few months so after those months you are CONSIDERED natural. 
While others dont eve show up on the tox report. 

Gear has lots of benefits if you know what your doing but using them to get an unfair advantage in a sport is and should be considered wrong.


----------



## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

dav35 said:


> I dont need to "imply". You clearly don't know much about steroids. I am okay with someone not understanding something, which is why I suggested that you do some research.
> 
> I am glad to hear that Mac Danzig is an MD.


thats why I made the statement about being crass.....your position comes off as passive aggressive (seeing as though you know full well Danzig is not a licensed doctor, but you chose to font that comment anyways)

basically.....taking steroids after every injury is a tactic to mask a lot of extra-curricular activities some MMA fighters have.

And yes...Ive torn my ACL, which required surgery...and used green tea and rest to heal it. Im not saying holistic is for every man, but I find it strange and a little too convenient that these fighters use all these steroid based pills/ supplements post injury/surgery

Then again, Im West Indian...so my perspective on these things might be different *shrugs*


----------



## Adam365 (Jul 10, 2008)

IMO i think most fighters are on some kind of steroids, they just don't get caught.


----------



## HaVoK (Dec 31, 2006)

Might as well quit watching MMA then. Actually any Pro Sport. Don't fool yourself.


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Adam365 said:


> IMO i think most fighters are on some kind of steroids, they just don't get caught.


Are or were on at some point probably. Most of the guys who get caught are unlucky or didn't cycle correctly.

I mean so many have been caught, and the responses from fighters when asked how many fighters use "banned substances" they always say most fighters.


----------



## Inkdot (Jun 15, 2009)

Steroids have NO place in professional sport! End of story. Fighters caught should be banned for atleast two years. I want olympic type testing for all major orgs (UFC and Strikeforce + maybie Bellator) problem is that costs money and I guess no one is willing to cough up the dough.

I feel that MMA orgs, and comissions dosen't take this problem as serious as other sports. Each time a fighter gets caught cheating the main stream will loose some faith in the cerability of MMA as a serious sport and that is a problem in itself beyond the fact that some individuals use banned substances in order to gain an unfair advantage over their opponents. (wow, long sentence...)

I really really hope that the rumor that "most" fighters do it is untrue.


----------



## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

"suspected steroid fighters"

What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Suspicion proves nothing.


----------



## BOMDC (Feb 13, 2011)

I agree with your stance on integrity but it's kind of naive to think in a realm of competition at the highest level there is not going to be some kind of cheating or cutting corners. As far as stricter punishments, the UFC or any major corporation is going to take care if its own well being and its stockholders before competitive integrity. They will protect their assets and do what they need to do to maximize profits which is a given. It's a problem, but until it affects the sport's PR enough to hurt it's revenue don't expect any increased consequences or testing. Watch or don't watch.


----------



## Saenchai (Mar 11, 2010)

dude "everyone" is on steroids today..


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

each of these fighters has tested positive for banned substances:

stephan bonnar, hermes franca, chris leben, thiago alves, nick diaz, ken shamrock, royce gracie, sean sherk, josh barnett, phil baroni, kevin randleman, tim sylvia, ricco rodriquez, chael sonnen, vitor belfort, kimo leopold, kit cope, edwin dewees, alexandre nogueira, anthony torres, big foot silva, melvin guillard, *BAS RUTTEN* 


this is what bas had to say on the subject:



The following is a message posted by Bas Rutten on the Sherdog.com discussion forums:

Yo, yo, yo!
Here is a piece that I send to MMAWEEKLY, they wanted to me to come on the radio, the same as Sherdog, but I feel that its totall BS what the commission did so I didn't want to give it time, but, just to keep you guys up dated, here is what I wrote, and its the truth. Morphine? No freaking way, I don't even know how to get that shit (like my Doctor would give me that, he knew I was going to fight), here it is...... I added a little to make you better understand.
This is to Mick Hammond.



Hey there Mick!

OK, here we go, otherwise people might think that I am a painkiller/morphine addict.

Check this out also, because they made up a story about this.
I was going to get an injection in my chest from my Doctor just before the fight.
The injection in the chest was for my pulled rib, I had to pay $59 to get my Doctor in the dressing room (so they KNEW that he was going to do it, I told them for what it was), but than when he came in it was suddenly against the rules? That was a rip off; they just made an extra $59!
Than they made up a story that I tried to sneak my Doctor in to put a shot in my chest and that they caught me with that?
This is why I am still in conflict with them because they make stuff up and I don't approve that of course and if I have to, I go in front of the whole commission with this.

BUT....this was the best for me because apparently they forgot that they were filming a documentary on me, so I have it all on film!
The room is 15 by 15 feet big, there is an inspector there also, how can I sneak a Doctor in there and he's going to shoot me up, plus for the documentary we wanted to put it on film? That's just not possible, but just to make sure, we have it on film so they can take a look at that.

The prescription painkiller.
A pulled rib, torn ACL and meniscus, plus a torn groin muscle. That was a nice little package that I had and a painkiller would help sleep also with that (that's what my family Doctor told me and gave to me, so I thought it would be NOT tested, if I knew, I would have never done it, I even showed the bottle to the inspector in my dressing room).
Than I took a Norco around 1 PM on the day of the fight, because the bottle says "take every 6 hours" this way I thought it would not have an effect on me anymore since that stuff slows your reflexes down, my fight was going to be around 9PM, so that would give it 2 hours extra.

They didn't say anything about Benadryl and the Morphine, but I can tell you that I didn't take morphine 100%, it was also not in the letter that I received from them, same as for the Benadryl, I didn't take that either. Maybe Norco is morphine related or something? One thing for sure, I NEVER took morphine, and Benadryl, common, WTF? I didn't have a cold and like that would help me.....

As for Marijuana with the other fighters, what's up with that he? Why would they test for that? If you fight on all that stuff (marijuana, painkillers, valium) and win, they should actually give you an extra price because you have no reflexes! Haha!
But I think that I came up with something that they (The commission) can use.
They should tell you that these drugs (marijuana, painkillers, valium etc.) are illegal because they (the drugs) put yourself in danger. Your reaction slows down and you might get hurt more easily by your opponent, and since they are there for the safety of the fighters....... See? Now people understand why it's illegal.
I always thought that they were going to test you for performance enhancing drugs like, cocaine, speed, steroids, etc, not for the ones that slow you down.
Tell me, who would think they would test for stuff like that?

That's it Mick! Have a good one!

Bas


----------



## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

xeberus said:


> each of these fighters has tested positive for banned substances:
> 
> stephan bonnar, hermes franca, chris leben, thiago alves, nick diaz, ken shamrock, royce gracie, sean sherk, josh barnett, phil baroni, kevin randleman, tim sylvia, ricco rodriquez, chael sonnen, vitor belfort, kimo leopold, kit cope, edwin dewees, alexandre nogueira, anthony torres, big foot silva, melvin guillard, *BAS RUTTEN*


funny....I dont see Snowman Monson on that list...eventhough the talk of him being on steriods has swirled around for years. He admitted to taking them in high school wrestling tournaments though.


----------



## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

Sekou said:


> My friend and I were discussing the Silva/Evans fight, and we started lampooning how Silva was "kicking Rashad's ass" :sarcastic12:
> 
> then I read this article
> 
> ...



my view/opinion may be jaded from being a fan of multi sports.

i.e. Football, Hockey, Baseball, etc.

My view on Steroids are: 
1. it don't work out for you
2. it don't do the rehabbing for you
3. it don't hit the baseball for you.
4. it don't catch the football for you
5. etc ...

i used to be anti-steroids, but i honestly believe, there are worst things to be mad about. all these athletes are human, and want to win. that's the kind of player i want on my football, baseball team. i want winners.

I may be shallow but if you aint cheating, you aint trying.

I would much rather see my favorite athlete superstar working hard, honing his craft, then slacking off, not caring, and at the bar every night consuming alcohol. 

Alcohol is legal, but Steroids is not?
Oxycontone is legal, but Steroids is not?
Methadone is legal, but Steroids is not?
Acetaminophen is legal, but Steroids is not?
Tobacco is legal, but ...... ?


----------



## Bluemoonshine (Feb 17, 2011)

what makes you think tylenol should be banned? lol..


----------



## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

HaVoK said:


> Might as well quit watching MMA then. Actually any Pro Sport. Don't fool yourself.


No this is just the general opinion of American sports fans, you put to much stake into WWE culture, its sad that Americans seem to think Steroids are just the normal thing to do for near all pro athletes, not sure what the American Football culture is like or Basket Ball in terms of Steroid use since I don't follow those sports, but I do know that this is not a view shared by Europeans our major sports been Football and Rugby are clean as a whistle, so clean that its never been an issue of concern.

So you are wrong in your American view of Steroids been the normal in sports when looking at sports from an international perspective.


----------



## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

America>Killershark


----------



## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

RustyRenegade said:


> America>Killershark


:laugh:


Is it really an "American" thing?

I thought the Germans and Russians invented the need for PED testing.:wink03:


----------



## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

oldfan said:


> :laugh:
> 
> 
> Is it really an "American" thing?
> ...


Ever seen what happened to those East German women from the 70s. Yikes...


----------



## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

Sekou said:


> My friend and I were discussing the Silva/Evans fight, and we started lampooning how Silva was "kicking Rashad's ass" :sarcastic12:
> 
> then I read this article
> 
> ...


To be fair, mentioning Sherk, Bonnar, and mostly Thiago(who isn't confirmed to have failed his test yet) in the same group as Barnett who has failed multiple tests where these guys have failed once is a bit un-just if you will. You are right, cheating is bad, but in the case of a guy like Chael I think he should get the benefit of the doubt as it was due to a medical issue.

Testing positive won't change my opinion of a fighter though, I'm a big fan of Alves and he got popped in the past, Barnett's the only exception to that as he's been busted far too many times and he killed a company(or atleast played a part in it's demise) due to roiding.


----------



## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

KillerShark1985 said:


> No this is just the general opinion of American sports fans, you put to much stake into WWE culture, its sad that Americans seem to think Steroids are just the normal thing to do for near all pro athletes, not sure what the American Football culture is like or Basket Ball in terms of Steroid use since I don't follow those sports, but I do know that this is not a view shared by Europeans our major sports been Football and Rugby are clean as a whistle, so clean that its never been an issue of concern.
> 
> So you are wrong in your American view of Steroids been the normal in sports when looking at sports from an international perspective.


What about the quite prestigious Tour de France. In cycling they are struggling for years now to get it clean, but obviously don't really care enough about it.

And Rugby isn't really a major sport. It's maybe somewhat popular in the UK and in France, but apart from that (unfortunately) not so much. That's why gentlemen's agreements still play some role in that sport and as there isn't that much money to make as a Rugby-player the temptation to use PEDs isn't that big.


----------



## fan4life (Oct 4, 2007)

K


Voiceless said:


> What about the quite prestigious Tour de France. In cycling they are struggling for years now to get it clean, but obviously don't really care enough about it.
> 
> And Rugby isn't really a major sport. It's maybe somewhat popular in the UK and in France, but apart from that (unfortunately) not so much. That's why gentlemen's agreements still play some role in that sport and as there isn't that much money to make as a Rugby-player the temptation to use PEDs isn't that big.


Dude educate yourself Rugby Olympic sport MMA isn't.


----------



## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

Voiceless said:


> What about the quite prestigious Tour de France. In cycling they are struggling for years now to get it clean, but obviously don't really care enough about it.
> 
> And Rugby isn't really a major sport. I*t's maybe somewhat popular in the UK and in France, but apart from that (unfortunately) not so much*. That's why gentlemen's agreements still play some role in that sport and as there isn't that much money to make as a Rugby-player the temptation to use PEDs isn't that big.


Oh and there was me thinking it was played all over Europe, huge in Australia, South Africa, South America and the rest of the southern hemisphere... Silly me!:sarcastic12:

btw fan4life Rugby hasn't been in the Olympics for about 80 years!


----------



## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Adam365 said:


> IMO i think most fighters are on some kind of steroids, they just don't get caught.


I don't think most are, I think the stupid ones use steroids and the smart ones are just that damn good. That's a very pessimistic point of view to have honestly, I want to say the very best fighters do not use steroids, it would be horrible for their reputation as a champion if they were caught cheating like that.


----------



## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

ptw said:


> I don't think most are, I think the stupid ones use steroids and the smart ones are just that damn good. That's a very pessimistic point of view to have honestly, I want to say the very best fighters do not use steroids, it would be horrible for their reputation as a champion if they were caught cheating like that.



You are naive, if you think most DON'T use.

The designers are always 1 or 2 steps ahead of the available testing.

There are many variations of Steroids, not all make you big and bulky. I would venture and say 70 - 90% of athletes in big market sports use.

as for 'pessimistic':
it's just how it is... it's part of human evolution..

people always want to get on their high horse and criticize people.. 
because they'll never understand ..

Until you are in their predicament where millions of dollars are at stake, your reputation, the prestige, and plain old Winning, comes into play.. im almost positive you would be singing a different tune.

It's always easier to sit back and criticize someone else's life, and their mistakes.


----------



## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

It's important to distinguish between PEDs and steroids.

There is this view that anyone caught with PEDs in their system is jabbing their arm with a syringe every day! 

Most athletes probably use unnatural and potential banned substances to aid their recovery from injury and help them train more effectively and things like that, I would not think that many sportsmen are hammering the anabolic steroids!!


----------



## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Sherk wasnt found with steroids read the article and had his suspension halved due to inconclusive evidence leave him out. 

This guy if found with Steroids i hope he gets cut, but only with 100% confirmation.


----------



## dutch sauce (Sep 24, 2006)

its easy to tell who is educated about steriods and who arent by how they reply. do i believe steriods should be legal in ufc, no. But before everyone hates on em, try to become educated on the matter first.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

No, Sherk wasn't found with steroids. He tested positive for them in a blood test. Though he says he's innocent to this day!


----------



## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

Adam365 said:


> IMO i think most fighters are on some kind of steroids, they just don't get caught.


I tend to agree. Some top guys who I think are natural are Fedor, Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, BJ Penn, Diaz, Vera, Michael Bisping -- guys who aren't overly muscular.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

The reason why Diaz isn't overly muscular is because he spends most of his money on weed. That is what he tested positive for when he fought Gomi. As for everyone else though I tend to agree!


----------



## Chousakan (Apr 20, 2008)

They shouldn't be doing any juicing unless they are in genuine need of it for medical treatment, if you need to juice to heal up after training then you are CHEATING to train harder so you are in better physical condition. '
I just dont get it, when I was young it was all about banning cheats for life, because even off the drugs and hormones they are still reaping the benefit of years of cheating. Now no one cares, cheats do it their whole career, serve a few suspensions and walk away superstars, worse still people have become so enamoured with athletes that they will defend, deny and make excuses for anything their favourite ones do.

BTW total lol at the money and fame at stake being an excuse... so we just ignore rules and regulations if money and fame are at stake? man I should of been a banker...


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well in the case of Sonnen he got a doctor to bail him out on that. Sylvia admitted to taking roids in order to loose weight. Yeah it is definately cheating and is obviously handled seriously!


----------



## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Well in the case of Sonnen he got a doctor to bail him out on that. Sylvia admitted to taking roids in order to loose weight. Yeah it is definately cheating and is obviously handled seriously!


It's lose weight and definitely Kanto you crazy asshole. Your ignorance is legendary.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Actually I'm not ignorant. I know guys try to cheat and it is in no way justified. They may try to justify it but it isn't!


----------



## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Actually I'm not ignorant. I know guys try to cheat and it is in no way justified. They may try to justify it but it isn't!


I think you are ignorant. Would you consider me a cheater if I pissed down your back and told you it was raining?


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Dude, that's just sick. Tell me if this is ignorance. All drug testing is done at the UCLA medical center where the Olympics does their drug testing!


----------



## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

The only thing that makes my life complete is when I turn your face into a toilet seat. I'm gonna piss on you:thumb02:


----------



## tidgypud (Feb 27, 2011)

RustyRenegade said:


> The only thing that makes my life complete is when I turn your face into a toilet seat. I'm gonna piss on you:thumb02:


Don't forget to flush.


----------



## tuw123 (Feb 22, 2010)

The problem is endemic in American sports. 

None of the sports leagues are strong enough on the use of performance enhancing drugs and the American public are equally weak in their reaction to drug cheats. As you see on this thread the general consensus amongst American posters is that it's ok because everyone is doing it unlike the rest of us who have no time for cheats.

If the UFC had a minimum ban of 5 years/life then believe me nobody would take anything, the UFC won't do anything though because Americans(both media and public) continue to turn a blind eye and thus the cycle continues.


----------



## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

tuw123 said:


> The problem is endemic in American sports.
> 
> None of the sports leagues are strong enough on the use of performance enhancing drugs and the American public are equally weak in their reaction to drug cheats. *As you see on this thread* the general consensus amongst American posters is that it's ok because everyone is doing it unlike the rest of us who have no time for cheats.
> 
> If the UFC had a minimum ban of 5 years/life then believe me nobody would take anything, the UFC won't do anything though because Americans(both media and public) continue to turn a blind eye and thus the cycle continues.


You're kidding, right? You're using the reactions on a forum to generalize a nation's opinions? Maybe next we can use youtube comments...

Seriously, in polls, Americans are always for tougher punishments for steroids. And PEDs are hardly just an American problem. In the last two summer Olympics (which have harsher penalties than any domestic leagues I've ever seen) there have been 45 doping cases. Only one was an American.


----------



## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

fan4life said:


> K
> 
> Dude educate yourself Rugby Olympic sport MMA isn't.


So then tell me who won the gold medals at the Olympic Games after 1924 until 2008 ...or tell at least *one* Olympic gold medalist team in that timeframe Mr. Educated. Btw. sports like synchronised swimming are olympic and between 1900 and 1920 tug-of-war was olympic, what does that tell us about popularity¿



edlavis88 said:


> Oh and there was me thinking it was played all over Europe, huge in Australia, South Africa, South America and the rest of the southern hemisphere... Silly me!:sarcastic12:


No, unfortunately it's not very much played all over Europe, just have a look where the teams come from that participate at the European Rugby Super League. Why would there be out of the total 14 participating teams 13 from the UK and 1 from France when Rugby were supposed to be so popular in all over Europe¿ Compare that to the number of countries where the football teams come from which participate at UEFA Champions League. Rugby is mainly popular in the Commonwealth countries, but apart from these only in some countries like France or Argentina. Neg-repping doesn't change that. I like Rugby very much and I'm quite annoyed that it's not so popular, because that means it doesn't get much media coverage and I'm not able to see much of Rugby although I'd like to. In some countries I've been sports like Curling are more covered than Rugby. I hope that will change when Rugby becomes olympic again.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

To me is says that there were a lack of sports. Golf was also an Olympic sport at one point. So was rugby before 2016!


----------



## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

Sekou said:


> thats why I made the statement about being crass.....your position comes off as passive aggressive (seeing as though you know full well Danzig is not a licensed doctor, but you chose to font that comment anyways)
> 
> basically.....taking steroids after every injury is a tactic to mask a lot of extra-curricular activities some MMA fighters have.
> 
> ...




LMAO...you mostly just sound ignorant.

To start with "steroids" is a generic term; there are many different types. 

Some have legitimate medical use. Everyday certain anabolic steroids are prescribed to athletes and non-athletes alike for the simple fact that they work.

Whether you like it or not recovery from ACL surgery is quicker with steroids than herbal green teas. And when you earn your living thru physical performance not only is recovery time critical but full recovery. 

Who says your knee healed as strong as it would have if you had used steroids? 

What I don't respect are athletes who use steroids to gain a competitive advantage. Doctors don't prescribe boldenone or stanozolol for knee injuries.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Another example is that my girlfriend needed them while recovering from an autoimmune disease that broke down and weakend her muscles. They do have legitimate uses when used properly. It is when athletes use them improperly that they are illegal!


----------



## Coke (Mar 2, 2011)

Surprisingly many guys who got caught using steroid do not look like they are on anything.

Guys like Stephan Bonnar, chael sonnen, Royce Gracie do not have big muscle although they took steroid.

Guys like Josh Barnett, Tim Sylvia, Ricco Rodriguez and Kirill Sidelnikov do not have big muscle and they are slightly chubby.

Here is a list of guys who have big muscle and look like they are on steroid. James Irvin, Sean Sherk, Phil Baroni, Shane Carwin.

Some guys like Chris Leben, Hermes Franca, Thiago Silva usually look average, but got much more muscular when using steroid. But they all got caught on the post fight drug test.


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

it honestly doesn't bother me when fighters use banned substances.


----------



## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

The problem is that there's a ton of ambiguity and uncertainty with regards to steroid testing. The Sherk case is a classic example. I was in the camp that immediately pegged Sherk as guilty. I have to admit, after watching the CSAC hearings unfold, I'm really not sure I believe that he's guilty of juicing. Part of that, though, is my distrust of CSAC when it was run by Armando Garcia, one of the most notorious morons in the history of MMA regulation; a title he worked very, very hard to earn.

As for the guys who take time to rehabilitate themselves and show that they can compete without the juice, I think they deserve a second shot. I support instance stripping of titles and banning from an organization, and those guys who offend multiple times drive me nuts.

However, look at a case study like Tim Sylvia. Sylvia won and defended his title, likely on steroids. He was caught after a positive test and banned in 2003. He returned and immediately lost the title shot that he shouldn't have gotten (getting his arm broken in the process). But less than three years later, he won the title fair and square, putting together a series of solid performances. He was one of the most infamous UFC champions ever, largely a result of being horribly boring and a bit of a prick (though I can't vouch for that personally; he seemed like a nice guy to me, if a bit narcissistic).

The thing is, Sylvia earned his title shot just like any other fighter. Should the UFC have stripped him of his title and made him earn another shot? Absolutely. Should the UFC have booted him after he tested positive? Probably, though it is tough to boot a guy that you've sunk serious resources into promoting.

Anyway, I don't like the idea of a fighter testing positive once and then being gone forever. I think this sport is about working your way up the ladder. If you cheat to do that, or cheat to try and take a belt from someone, or defend your own belt, like Josh Barnett or Hermes Franca or Tim Sylvia, you should have to suffer the consequences. The punishments for cheating should be severe. Automatic DQ, a fine and a suspension are all great. A lifelong ban is a little ridiculous.

If the UFC decides to send someone down to the smaller shows, that's totally fine with me. But that guy should have the opportunity to work his way back up, provided he's earned it.

Oh, and also the fighters who test positive should have to take a 'random' drug test every time they fight for the rest of their careers. But most of them have to do that already, with the exception of Barnett.


----------



## METALLICA_RULES (Feb 12, 2011)

Steroids should result in automatic release from promotion, enough said.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

That is probably how it should be but obviously Dana White never saw it that way. And clearly other promotion heads feel the same way as they hold Dana White as a role model. Basically this will never go away.


----------



## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

IronMan said:


> The problem is that there's a ton of ambiguity and uncertainty with regards to steroid testing. The Sherk case is a classic example. I was in the camp that immediately pegged Sherk as guilty. I have to admit, after watching the CSAC hearings unfold, I'm really not sure I believe that he's guilty of juicing. Part of that, though, is my distrust of CSAC when it was run by Armando Garcia, one of the most notorious morons in the history of MMA regulation; a title he worked very, very hard to earn.
> 
> As for the guys who take time to rehabilitate themselves and show that they can compete without the juice, I think they deserve a second shot. I support instance stripping of titles and banning from an organization, and those guys who offend multiple times drive me nuts.
> 
> ...


Agreed with every word of this.


----------



## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Coke said:


> Surprisingly many guys who got caught using steroid do not look like they are on anything.


That's because using anabolic steroids don't make you instantly look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime. It depends on how you train and what kind of substance you actually took. MMAists don't particularly train for hypertrophy and muscle definition like bodybuilders, so the effect is not necessarely easy to be seen.



xeberus said:


> it honestly doesn't bother me when fighters use banned substances.


I think there are not many elite fighters who don't use some kind of enhancing substances anyways.



kantowrestler said:


> That is probably how it should be but obviously Dana White never saw it that way. And clearly other promotion heads feel the same way as they hold Dana White as a role model. Basically this will never go away.


White and the promotion are not interested in fighters to be clean, they are interested in that there are no scandals. The whole thing is business and not some kind of humanist club. It's the same as in any other major sport. They want results, performance, records (to be broken), because that's the stuff that sells. The popularity of watching athletics i.e. would drastically decrease if there wouldn't be any records broken every world championchips or Olympic Games, because that's a major part of what makes the thrill in watching it.


----------



## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

I'm with the OP in that I have no respect for cheaters (users, whatever you want to call them). That being said I think the OP's judgment is a little harsh. I'm happy with the 1 year suspension and fine. That being said I think if you've been busted once for the rest of your career you should be submitted to regular testing to make sure you're not cycling. On top of that I think there should random testings for all fighters to make sure THEY'RE not cycling and just haven't gotten caught yet.

I'm just not interested in what science (steroids, HGH, etc.) can do for the sport or the fighters. I'm interested in what a fighter can do under his own power. That means for some users they're not going to be able to train as hard due to recovery, they're going to have to take longer times off to recover from injuries, etc. I understand that, but to me that's what I want to see.


----------



## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

I have actually come to the conclusion that Steriods could be allowed , therefore everyone can freely use them and everyone then will be on an even playing field legally :thumb02:


----------



## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

> "I have no respect for steroid fighters/ suspected steroid fighters"


If you share this opinion, and are NOT Bas Rutten:

Get a life.


99% of us on this forum don't understand the difference between steroids and the 500 other substances you can use to enhance your performance, so why are 99% of us pretending. I'm pretty sure most fighters are on some form of hormone replacement anyway.. whatever that is. (don't explain to me, please)


----------



## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

I'm just happy to see that the discussion has remained civil.


----------



## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

RudeBoySes said:


> You are naive, if you think most DON'T use.
> 
> The designers are always 1 or 2 steps ahead of the available testing.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree - I think most major sports where size and strength are a big factor are rampant with all sorts of PEDs. I mean, 20 years ago, it was rare for an NFL lineman to weigh over 300lbs, now they ALL do - no way that's all due to just nutrition and weightlifting.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well in case you haven't noticed alot of those 300lbs. linemen are not muscle built men. Alot of them are fat and I think there is testing in the NFL. If guys are well fed they will get alot bigger then they would otherwise and things have changed.


----------



## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Well in case you haven't noticed alot of those 300lbs. linemen are not muscle built men. Alot of them are fat and I think there is testing in the NFL. If guys are well fed they will get alot bigger then they would otherwise and things have changed.


They do, but there are some serious problems with their testing policy.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/NFL-drug-testing-policy-questioned-by-experts-012011

Anyone can pass a drug test with advance notice. I doubt their system is any more effective than the current systems in use by the major MMA commissions.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

It is unfortunate but we do know that there are some guys who don't use roids. There is no way that Jon Jones uses them or else he would be a heavyweight. Also you can tell by his character outside the gym that he is a man of integrity.


----------



## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> It is unfortunate but we do know that there are some guys who don't use roids. There is no way that Jon Jones uses them or else he would be a heavyweight. Also you can tell by his character outside the gym that he is a man of integrity.


ehh... bones' integrity? whatever. but you're wrong that you can tell if someone is juicing just from their size. this is a common misconception that stems from the fact that many roiders are taking them to become big, but they are doing a ton of lifting to increase their mass, too. you don't have to do that, you can use them mainly to reduce recovery times and you won't gain a lot of mass unless you are upping your lifting regimen.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, I actually am aware of the fast recovery roids. It is a problem and the testing agencies are working on better testing methods. Unfortunately until then we are stuck.


----------



## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, I actually am aware of the fast recovery roids. It is a problem and the testing agencies are working on better testing methods. Unfortunately until then we are stuck.


Olympic-style testing is what should be happening. I have passed many piss tests with notice, it really is not difficult as the labs providing the system cleaners are always a step ahead of the testing labs (in fact I think they might be in cahoots), so if you have an hour for that cleaner drink to work you are going to pass the test.

The only way to ensure catching a guy is to show up at random, no notice at all, and tell him to piss while you watch. <no ****


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Actually that is what they do for the California State Athletic Commission. They use the labs at the UCLA medical center. But that is just California, I'm not sure the rest of the athletic commissions use it.


----------



## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

kantowrestler said:


> It is unfortunate but we do know that there are some guys who don't use roids. There is no way that Jon Jones uses them or else he would be a heavyweight. Also you can tell by his character outside the gym that he is a man of integrity.


Or he could be juicing to keep himself at LHW. There are roids that will strip fat while retaining muscle, they are not bulking agents. There are roids that drastically increase edurance, explosive power, speed, and make you an animal while doing little to your weight or mass. Any given fighter could be on any given roid. Some only take seven to ten weeks to utilize it's full advantages which is plenty of time to cycle on and off in between fights with no risk of failing a test.


----------



## trimco (Feb 4, 2011)

Question for all of you, since it seems to be that most people believe that a majority of fighters use PEDS:

Which current title holders do you believe use and don't use PEDS?

Here's a list:

Cain Velasquez
Jon Jones
Anderson Silva
GSP
Frankie Edgar
Jose Aldo
Dominick Cruz

I believe the person least likely to use PEDS is Frankie Edgar. 

Person most likely - Jon Jones.


----------



## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Actually that is what they do for the California State Athletic Commission. They use the labs at the UCLA medical center. But that is just California, I'm not sure the rest of the athletic commissions use it.


As far as I know the fighters still have plenty of notice in CA.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

That is definately true. It maybe called random drug testing but you know that whenever your liscence is going to be renewed or an event is coming up there is going to be a drug test. So they have plenty of time to get off their cycle.


----------



## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

HexRei said:


> As far as I know the fighters still have plenty of notice in CA.


For what it's worth (and I've done a lot of research on CSAC steroid testing policies) there has been a lot of progress in the last two years, largely due to the Sean Sherk debacle. Whatever happened with Sherk (whether he was guilty or not) should never have happened; it should never have been controversial one way or another.

The policy of advanced notice for testing is common. Most fighters have an expectation of times that they are likely to be tested (two weeks before a bout, or immediately before or after) and so it is possible to structure their use of the steroids to be clear of the drugs during that time period.

That said, beating the tests is not that straightforward, and obviously a lot of guys have issues. Obviously, the best way to test is the Olympic style of testing, which I haven't seen any serious controversies about. The issue is that it's cost intensive and a lot of the promotions and commissions are unwilling to spring for it. And they don't have to, because they are not under as strict scrutiny as the IOC.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, normally when a fighter is truely guilty he will fess up when he tests positive for roids. To this day Sherk still denies it which actually does hint to the possibility that he was innocent. Then one of the new tests conducted turned out Sonnen's testosterone dosses for his condition.


----------



## dutch sauce (Sep 24, 2006)

any actual educated person on the topic should realize that atleast 80 percent of all pro athletes are on some form of performance enhanccer, detectable or not.


----------



## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

dutch sauce said:


> any actual educated person on the topic should realize that atleast 80 percent of all pro athletes are on some form of performance enhanccer, detectable or not.


I'm not sure you want to give a hard number on something like that unless you're going to qualify what you mean by "performance enhancer." If you qualify it loosely, you can argue that 90-99% of all athletes are on performance enhancers.

If you limited it to explicitly banned substances, it gets a little more problematic.

Actually, it gets really interesting when you try to factor recreational drug use either in or out of this particular issue. Marijuana is not a 'performance enhancer' in the sense of aiding performance, but it is in the sense of being a banned substance. There is an enormous number of MMA fighters (even top tier fighters) who use marijuana. That's true, generally, for athletes across sports, but seems to be particularly true in combat sports.

The question of the way that we qualify the term 'performance enhancer' is one that I have always found, personally, to be very interesting. Do we qualify strong, but not explicitly banned, herbal supplements? Do we define them based on particular components of the drugs or based on side effects?

It turns out all of these definitions are really problematic. NSAC and CSAC tend to use official lists for reference, usually with consideration of those lists used by Major League Baseball and the NFL.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, it really depends on what you define as performance enhancers. If you are talking about creatine and legal protein supplements then yeah 90-99% of all pro athletes are on performance enhancers. But if you are talking about illegal anabolic steriods and other stuff of that nature it's smaller.


----------



## evzbc (Oct 11, 2006)

How about an XFL version of the UFC...

XFC?

Put all the most roided out monkeys together and let them shrink their balls and rage on each other in the cage (I know the rage is only exaggerated if you are already like that ie: BARONI, but just humor me).

Then all the clean guys can fight each other with Olympic style testing??

:thumbsup:

Hehe ok ok. I'm on the fence with steroids. The reality is it gives guys an edge _at a price_. The price might be years off their life. But if they're the kind of guys who don't give a shit and just want fame and glory ...then they go into a match with a big advantage because of their lack of future planning.

**I* think weigh-ins on the day of the fight would be a much better solution.* 

As it is right now HUGE guys (AJ etc...) can dehydrate their big muscles and fight guys with smaller frames ...imagine how big AJ would look compared to BJ Penn fighting at the "same" weight.

Hard to determine a perfect solution, but I think this would help. I mean, that's what everyone is bitching about right? That fights aren't fair since one guy is roiding up?


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

That is an interesting idea except for one thing. There is already an XFC. It is a regional promotion located in Florida.


----------



## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

trimco said:


> Question for all of you, since it seems to be that most people believe that a majority of fighters use PEDS:
> 
> Which current title holders do you believe use and don't use PEDS?
> 
> ...


In order from most to least

Cain Velasquez
GSP
Anderson Silva
Dominick Cruz
Jose Aldo
Jon Jones
Frankie Edgar

I think Cain is most likely just because of where he's located at and his long layoffs between fights seem like cycling to me. His arm injury is the sort of thing that Wrestlers on roids get.

GSP looks like someone who is on roids, but he's never been injured and he seems to have the same body for years.

I don't see Jones being on roids, he's been main eventing and therefore tested many times.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I wasn't aware that there was a such think as wrestling roid arm injuries. Just to tell you his having the same body for years means one of two things, he doesn't take roids or he has been taking them for all his active MMA career. However, I do agree that Jones probably isn't taking roids.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Most fighters use, more than one fighter has came out and said that. The thing is until they make testing more effective most fighters will continue to take the risk.


----------



## Intermission (Oct 1, 2009)

John8204 said:


> In order from most to least
> 
> Cain Velasquez
> GSP
> ...


Then wouldn't that count for all the other champions considering they have ALL been in main events? That didn't make much sense.


----------



## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Intermission said:


> Then wouldn't that count for all the other champions considering they have ALL been in main events? That didn't make much sense.


Did the other champions fight in five main events in about two years....no.

Cain's fought in main events twice he's going to have had an 8 month break and a 12+ month break between fights.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, that doesn't make much sense. Not to mention all the champions don't really have roid type bodies. They are all relatively small champions, with a few exceptions of course.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Well the athletic commissions are who decides what is or is not a ped and NSAC's are probably listed someplace online but new drugs come out daily and drugs that cycle easy are the most abused.

I just dont think they want to address the issue or they would already be using better testing methods.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, it is possible that athletic commissions regularly adds drugs to their drug list. But by the time they do some of these guys are probably already using them. And as you've said they cycle.


----------



## Coke (Mar 2, 2011)

How do I delete this post?


----------



## Coke (Mar 2, 2011)

kantowrestler said:


> It is unfortunate but we do know that there are some guys who don't use roids. There is no way that Jon Jones uses them or else he would be a heavyweight. Also you can tell by his character outside the gym that he is a man of integrity.


You can never tell if someone is on steroid. One of my friend who is a wonderful University student, I didn't know he is juice until someone told me he is distributing steroid to other guys in the gym who want to try it.

I really believe most NFL and some NFL players are on steroid.
Some collegiate wrestlers football and rugby players use it too.
I heard that some high school students use it too to get athletic scholarship from a good university.

In the end I don't care if MMA fighters are on steroid because I just want to see a competitive and exciting fight.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well it is hard to find out. But you have to admit that Jones has alot of heart in his life. First he stops a crime then he takes care of a women who was stuck in town for a few days.


----------

