# Nick Diaz signs to fight Fernando Vargas in boxing match



## H-Deep (Feb 3, 2009)




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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

As much as I hate Nick Diaz he has a point. He has completely cleaned out his division and unless he wants to move up to fight MW there isn't much out there for him except maybe Woodley or a Daley rematch. You can tell he hates training and just wants to get paid.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Interesting. There's really no big name left outside of the UFC for Nick to fight. Too bad if he leaves for boxing, but I guess it makes sense for him to either leave MMA for a while unless he can somehow get into the UFC.

I don't really follow boxing all that much. They say that Vargas guy is not world class, but exactly how good is he?


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Mike28 said:


> As much as I hate Nick Diaz he has a point. He has completely cleaned out his division and unless he wants to move up to fight MW there isn't much out there for him except maybe Woodley or a Daley rematch.* You can tell he hates training* and just wants to get paid.


Wat?


All the guy does is train. 

He, quite literally, has no life, no social skills, friends, girlfriend, etc.

If he's not training MMA, he's doing a triathlon.


If he's not high at any given moment, I seriously, seriously thing Diaz has a severe form of Asperger's.

He nearly fits the mold entirely. His brother Nate at least seems semi-capable of being a normal person, and especially I think this played out the most when Nate graduated high school and Nick dropped out after one year.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Mike28 said:


> As much as I hate Nick Diaz he has a point. *He has completely cleaned out his division* and unless he wants to move up to fight MW there isn't much out there for him except maybe Woodley or a Daley rematch. You can tell he hates training and just wants to get paid.


SF's WW division is the weakest division in the ZUFFA organisation.

But, now that ZUFFA has bought SF it's inevitable that the best SF fighters will make the move to the UFC in the near future. So Diaz will have plenty of fights to chose from.

The UFC's WW division is stacked - one of the most competitive. 

If the possibility of fighting against the best WWs in the world isn't good enough for Diaz - then i don't know what is.

Annyway, i don't buy this switching to boxing/quitting MMA stuff!

_EDIT: just posted a new thread about this situation_


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

If this fight does happen we'll at least see how good Nicks boxing is. Don't know how good Vargas is anymore but it'd be cool if Nick was able to beat him. 

If I was his manager I'd be telling him to tone it down a little bit though. Employers grow tired of their workers constantly complaining about any and everything. 

Aside from opening a gym I can't see a job other than fighting that Nick would excel at:confused03:


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Vargas was a 154lber, Diaz is a 170lber.

Vargas is now fat, hasn't fought in 4 years.

But still a good name and fight for Diaz who only has 1 pro boxing fight.

Lazy is a natural 168lber, so perfect for Diaz. 

However Lazy just lost to a complete bum, he would still be a good name for an inexperienced boxer to take, just the same as Vargas.

Personally, I think they should set Diaz up with GSP after Shields is beat (avenging his team mates loss would make a good marketing pitch).

If not, he should move to MW and fight Jacare. Both Jacare nor Diaz have anybody left in their respective divisions in SF, so why not make it happen............


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## Intermission (Oct 1, 2009)

Fine Wine said:


> Vargas was a 154lber, Diaz is a 170lber.
> 
> Vargas is now fat, hasn't fought in 4 years.
> 
> ...


If he is going to move up to MW I want to see him fight Mayhem. After all he is scared, homie.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Fark Mayhem off, much more interesting to see him vs Jacare. 

See some serious Jitsu in action there!


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## cursedbat (Apr 11, 2011)

One he already has a gym. Two he doesnt give a damn what an employer thinks because in his mind he has none...which is so straight up. Three Shields is probably going to beat GSP leaving a lot of people crying. Four until he gets a fight from the UFC he has none...and I see him besides getting humped, running through that entire division despite what the same people who said he would loose his last 6 fights say.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

He did clean out his division, but it wasn't that hard. WW is pretty weak in SF. Santos is terrible, Daley is good but one dimensional, KJ is mid tier at best and Zaromskis (sp?) is middle of the pack as well. I think Diaz looks great because of who he is fighting.

I think a Vargas that hasn't boxed in awhile is a Vargas that is going to demolish Diaz in a boxing match.

Vargas also has a fight set up for tomorrow.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Vargas doesn't have a fight set up anytime soon, he hasn't fought in 4 years. He would only come back for a Diaz fight, blown up and fat.

But it looks far more likely it will be a fight against Lacy.

There was also talk about a fight with Sergio Martinez, L O L, Diaz would be murdered if that fight was set-up, Diaz is great and entertaining, but Sergio is a top P4P fighter, it's like trying to put a Martinez who has cross trained in MMA in there with George St Pierre, it would be ugly regardless of the cross-training!!!!!!


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Fine Wine said:


> Vargas doesn't have a fight set up anytime soon, he hasn't fought in 4 years. He would only come back for a Diaz fight, blown up and fat.
> 
> But it looks far more likely it will be a fight against Lacy.
> 
> There was also talk about a fight with Sergio Martinez, L O L, Diaz would be murdered if that fight was set-up, Diaz is great and entertaining, but Sergio is a top P4P fighter, it's like trying to put a Martinez who has cross trained in MMA in there with George St Pierre, it would be ugly regardless of the cross-training!!!!!!



Yeah it'd be like putting an MMA guy like Mousasi in with Kyotaro, K1 Champion. Or an MMA guy like Werdum in the top grappling competition in the world, ADCC. 

I've learned these last couple years that top MMA guys are not to be underestimated, in any combat sport.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

khoveraki said:


> Yeah it'd be like putting an MMA guy like Mousasi in with Kyotaro, K1 Champion. Or an MMA guy like Werdum in the top grappling competition in the world, ADCC.
> 
> I've learned these last couple years that top MMA guys are not to be underestimated, in any combat sport.


LOL, and Werdum started as a grappler from a young age. I wonder why he can compete in grappling competitions? 

K1 is hardly top level, it is big guys who can fight, a lot of them are fat and very ordinary Muay Thai or kickboxing fighters P4P and many aren't even Champions let alone P4P fighters! It is a big mans spectacle show for the Japanese, not the top level striking in the world as it is made out to be. 

These top boxers train as kids, little kids, and absolutely hone and fine tune their skills. No cross fighter is going to compete with the top P4P boxers at boxing. Even guys who start late, don't peak until well into their careers before they can make P4P lists (as per BHOP).

You are comparing apples to oranges as the famous old cliche go.


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## Intermission (Oct 1, 2009)

Fine Wine said:


> LOL, and Werdum started as a grappler from a young age. I wonder why he can compete in grappling competitions?
> 
> *K1 is hardly top level*, it is big guys who can fight, a lot of them are fat and very ordinary Muay Thai or kickboxing fighters P4P and many aren't even Champions let alone P4P fighters! It is a big mans spectacle show for the Japanese, not the top level striking in the world as it is made out to be.
> 
> ...


I stopped taking your post seriously after I read that.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

So Mark Hunt is better than Nathan Corbett? What about Yodsanklai?

When I talk TOP LEVEL, I am talking the BEST P4P kickboxers in the world. 

Unfortunately, very very few of them are in K1 because K1 is so limited by weight. How can you even compare Kyotaro to these guys.......?


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## Intermission (Oct 1, 2009)

Fine Wine said:


> So Mark Hunt is better than Nathan Corbett? What about Yodsanklai?
> 
> When I talk TOP LEVEL, I am talking the BEST P4P kickboxers in the world.
> 
> Unfortunately, very very few of them are in K1 because K1 is so limited by weight. How can you even compare Kyotaro to these guys.......?


So are you saying that Mousasi could beat Overeem in a K-1 fight?


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

No. What does that have to do with anything I said?

Put it this way, if you think 90% of the guys in K1 are on the same kickboxing level as Yod and Corbett or any other P4Per, you or any other that thinks so, needs to get their eyes checked because they are miles apart in terms of skills.

I.e. it is like saying Roy Nelson is top level MMA fighter because he fights as a heavyweight. No he isn't. Cain Velasquez probably is. George St Pierre, BJ Penn, Anderson Silva are.


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## Intermission (Oct 1, 2009)

Fine Wine said:


> No. What does that have to do with anything I said?
> 
> Put it this way, if you think 90% of the guys in K1 are on the same kickboxing level as Yod and Corbett or any other P4Per, you or any other that thinks so, needs to get their eyes checked because they are miles apart in terms of skills.


You said Kyotaro is on a different level, Gegard Mousasi beat him convincingly. Does that mean Mousasi could beat Overeem...?


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Fine Wine said:


> No. What does that have to do with anything I said?
> 
> Put it this way, if you think 90% of the guys in K1 are on the same kickboxing level as Yod and Corbett or any other P4Per, you or any other that thinks so, needs to get their eyes checked because they are miles apart in terms of skills.


Corbett may have beat Spong (though not technically), a lot of guys have absolutely schooled him far worse including my boy Saki.


There's a difference between looking good beating nobodies, and looking good beating top K-1 guys. Let's see Corbett look impressive vs. Hari, Saki, Schilt instead of beating up people in B-level shows. There's always those few guys who *look* great but simply aren't fighting top competition.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Intermission said:


> You said Kyotaro is on a different level, Gegard Mousasi beat him convincingly. Does that mean Mousasi could beat Overeem...?


I.e. he is NOT one of the best P4P fighters in Muay Thai.

So Mousasi beating Kyotaro is hardly like Nate Diaz beating Sergio Martinez or Manny Pacquiao or Floyd Mayweather in a boxing cross fight.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

khoveraki said:


> Corbett may have beat Spong (though not technically), a lot of guys have absolutely schooled him far worse including my boy Saki.
> 
> There's a difference between looking good beating nobodies, and looking good beating top K-1 guys. Let's see Corbett look impressive vs. Hari, Saki, Schilt instead of beating up people in B-level shows. There's always those few guys who *look* great but simply aren't fighting top competition.


Ah Corbett is a natural middle in MMA weight division terms. Now Corbett is so heavy, he looks slow and plodding. Most of the guys you mention are heavyweights, that is my point, K1 is the best heavyweights. Not the best 'kickboxers'. In a cross fight, Dos Santos could perhaps beat some of top heavyweight boxing challengers, but no way does he take a top pound for pound heavyweight out.

And your example of a grappler fighting in a grappling tournament is rediculous.


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## Intermission (Oct 1, 2009)

Fine Wine said:


> I.e. he is NOT one of the best P4P fighters in Muay Thai.
> 
> So Mousasi beating Kyotaro is hardly like Nate Diaz beating Sergio Martinez or Manny Pacquiao or Floyd Mayweather in a boxing cross fight.


I see your point.

P.S the Mousasi vs Kyotaro fight was K-1 kickboxing rules it wasn't a Muay Thai fight.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Nick does not need to embarrass himself like that. 

I seriously doupt he would make it out of the first round without a ten count. 

Fernando Vargas just recently still fought the likes of Mosley and Co. 

I mean seriously Nick??


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Nick Diaz's boxing is overrated. Yep I went there. The one and only good win he has using his striking is Daley and he was dropped twice. Who else? KJ is hugely unproven as he hasn't fought anyone really big. A Frank Shamrock that was 37 and a much different fighter than he once was. Diaz hasn't fought anyone worth mentioning to be honest. I mean in the grand scheme of things, who are Cyborg or Zaromskis? They are nobody. Cyborg barely has a positive record and Zaromskis is mid tier at best.

Do people honestly think Diaz's striking is something hugely spectacular? Because from his opponents, it is hard to tell for sure.

His only saving grace is that he is relentless. His defense is terrible. He fights with hs hands down even when he is engaging his opponent.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Fine Wine said:


> No. What does that have to do with anything I said?
> 
> Put it this way, if you think 90% of the guys in K1 are on the same kickboxing level as Yod and Corbett or any other P4Per, you or any other that thinks so, needs to get their eyes checked because they are miles apart in terms of skills.
> 
> I.e. it is like saying Roy Nelson is top level MMA fighter because he fights as a heavyweight. No he isn't. Cain Velasquez probably is. George St Pierre, BJ Penn, Anderson Silva are.



People will always doubt MMA fighters but these are the facts:

NCAA div 1 is the highest level wrestling competition and multiple MMA fighters are champions of it.

ADCC is the highest level BJJ competition and multiple MMA fighters are champions of it.

K-1 is the highest level kickboxing competition and multiple MMA fighters are champions of it.


Boxing is next. There are plenty of MMA fighters right now with pro boxing records, some of the ones I can think of right now are unblemished as well. Nobody works harder than MMA fighters and I wouldn't be surprised if guys like Diaz work the pads the same amount as a guy like Vargas.


But talk is cheap, we'll see what happens. All I know is Diaz will fare far, far better in boxing than Toney did in MMA. :thumbsup:



Looked up some of the pro-boxing records of MMA fighters from another site:


Eric Esch (Butterbean): 77-7-4 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=14536&cat=boxer 

Melton Bowen: 35-9-0 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=5116&cat=boxer 

Yosuke Nishijima: 24-2-1 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=22476&cat=boxer 

Art Jimerson: 33-18-0 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=2044&cat=boxer 

Marcus Davis: 17-1-2 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=19438&cat=boxer 

Chris Lytle: 13-1-1 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=121346&cat=boxer 

Jan Nortje: 10-0 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=14124&cat=boxer 

Alessio Sakara: 6-1 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=297539&cat=boxer 

KJ Noons: 7-1 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=259486&cat=boxer 

Orlando Weit: 8-8 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=7339&cat=boxer 

Travis Fulton: 15-19 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=18561&cat=boxer 

Jens Pulver: 4-0 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=256828&cat=boxer 

Jerome Lebanner: 4-0 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=39471&cat=boxer 

Tra Telligman: 4-2 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=50871&cat=boxer 

Ray Sefo: 5-1 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=32491&cat=boxer 

Pat Smith: 5-10-2 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=31582&cat=boxer 

Siali Siliga (Mighty Mo): 2-1 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=356526&cat=boxer 

Nick Diaz: 1-0 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=312079&cat=boxer 

Vitor Belfort: 1-0 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=352247&cat=boxer 

Anderson Silva: 1-1 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=325793&cat=boxer 

Ricco Rodriguez: 1-0 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=373281&cat=boxer 

Oleg Taktarov: 1-0 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=223223&cat=boxer 

Per Ecklund: 1-0 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=421157&cat=boxer 

Mark Hunt: 0-1-1 
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=58555&cat=boxer



And your excuse for Corbett is silly, Saki also is a natural MW or at most LHW and he isn't slow or plodding with the extra weight, and IMO would defeat Corbett 10/10 times.


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## Brydon (Jan 13, 2007)

Diaz clearly has great boxing skills in the MMA world. However I feel the reason he is so effective is because he throws light punches and lots of them. Whilst these light punches can be powerful with 4oz gloves on, I fear he will lose a lot of his power with 8oz or 10oz boxing gloves on.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Brydon said:


> Diaz clearly has great boxing skills in the MMA world. However I feel the reason he is so effective is because he throws light punches and lots of them. Whilst these light punches can be powerful with 4oz gloves on, I fear he will lose a lot of his power with 8oz or 10oz boxing gloves on.



That's quite a bit of a misnomer. You don't really lose power (or gain it in opposite) going from 4oz gloves to 12oz gloves.


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## Light_Speed (Jun 3, 2009)

nick diaz can make as much money off this fight as he will his whole career if not more in all his mma fights. 

he can go to the ufc after the fight lol..vargas is perfect


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

khoveraki said:


> That's quite a bit of a misnomer. You don't really lose power (or gain it in opposite) going from 4oz gloves to 12oz gloves.


You don't? So why do you use 16oz for sparring and 10oz for amateur fighting and 8oz for a lot of professional bouts?

Those boxing records you posted mean nothing. I have already stated, the vast vast majority of 'pro boxers' are infact semi pro. They are truck drivers, garbage men, police officers, who box in their spare time for extra cash. A record means nothing, it is who is on it. Pull off all those boxing resumes you posted some guys with top notch wins, find me even 1?

Your also comparing apples to oranges again.

Those "MMA guys" with good wrestling, come from a wrestling base.

Same with the BJJ guys (Jacare, Maia etc).

Do you see the difference, these guys came TO MMA, after being athletes in other sports. It isn't like all of a sudden guys who only train MMA have gone into grappling tournaments or olympics and won. Just the same as guys who train MMA won't go into boxing and beat the top of the food chain there. They are different sports. Simple facts. One has specialists, one has generalists. I don't understand why you are so defensive and seem to believe these MMA guys go into other sports and dominate, when infact many came from other arenas to compete in MMA.


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## KingJo (Apr 21, 2011)

diaz has good enough skills to beat lacy


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## Brydon (Jan 13, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> That's quite a bit of a misnomer. You don't really lose power (or gain it in opposite) going from 4oz gloves to 12oz gloves.


So you don't think a punch thrown with 4oz gloves would be more damaging than one thrown in 12oz gloves?


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Fine Wine said:


> You don't? So why do you use 16oz for sparring and 10oz for amateur fighting and 8oz for a lot of professional bouts?
> 
> Those boxing records you posted mean nothing. I have already stated, the vast vast majority of 'pro boxers' are infact semi pro. They are truck drivers, garbage men, police officers, who box in their spare time for extra cash. A record means nothing, it is who is on it. Pull off all those boxing resumes you posted some guys with top notch wins, find me even 1?
> 
> ...





Brydon said:


> So you don't think a punch thrown with 4oz gloves would be more damaging than one thrown in 12oz gloves?


Don't bother waiting for a response guys :thumb02:


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Fine Wine said:


> You don't? So why do you use 16oz for sparring and 10oz for amateur fighting and 8oz for a lot of professional bouts?


You use 16oz gloves when training for muscle endurance. 






Again, the myth has been debunked multiple times and here's a quick video about it.




> Those boxing records you posted mean nothing. I have already stated, the vast vast majority of 'pro boxers' are infact semi pro. They are truck drivers, garbage men, police officers, who box in their spare time for extra cash. A record means nothing, it is who is on it. Pull off all those boxing resumes you posted some guys with top notch wins, find me even 1?


So you're saying MMA fighters can't compete with boxers when I've clearly shown that MMA fighters have successfully competed at the pro-level in boxing? Of course I'm going to have trouble finding an MMA fighter who competed with a top 10 boxer, but I've shown you dozens who competed with multiple professional boxers at the state and national level and became champions in that respect.

Disrespecting the boxers (without even looking up the records) by assuming they were part-timers is ignorant and honestly sort of annoying. Especially because the MMA fighter is also by definition a part-time boxer, since they didn't commit to boxing 100%, because they're *MMA fighters.*



> Your also comparing apples to oranges again.
> 
> Those "MMA guys" with good wrestling, come from a wrestling base.
> 
> ...



So you're saying the timeframe is important? That's absurd. And you're also talking non-sense, there's a lot of competitors who entered MMA with hardly any background and became champions in other aspects. Wrestling you won't find so much because it's usually at the high-school and college level, you're not likely to compete in MMA before high-school.


But for kickboxing? Overeem was an MMA fighter long before he was a K-1 champion. Mousasi was an MMA fighter for ages before beating the K-1 champion. For BJJ? Werdum didn't win his first ADCC until years after starting MMA. Jeff Monson was also in MMA for two years before winning an ADCC championship. And in wrestling GSP had zero background before training in MMA and now he's a world-class wrestler, training with the Canadian Olympic team.


And you say they're different sports, blah blah blah. But what about them having the same exact trainers? Doing the same exact training sessions? Having some unprovable innate difference isn't going to cut it in this debate, your bias towards boxing is getting in the way of facts.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Hey Khov, I've heard it explained that while the glove size does not chance the force of your strike, the area of impact with the larger gloves is more easilly distributed, resulting in less damage. 

It makes sense to me when I think about it that way anyway. Those sports science tests don't really consider that you only need to be hit on the button.

I've been wrong many times before, just my 2 cents.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

SJ said:


> Hey Khov, I've heard it explained that while the glove size does not chance the force of your strike, the area of impact with the larger gloves is more easilly distributed, resulting in less damage.
> 
> It makes sense to me when I think about it that way anyway. Those sports science tests don't really consider that you only need to be hit on the button.
> 
> I've been wrong many times before, just my 2 cents.


"Force" and "impact" in this case would be the same thing I believe. Surface area basically being comparable due to the same knuckles being used. You don't hit with all four knuckles just because the glove is bigger, as an example.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> "Force" and "impact" in this case would be the same thing I believe. Surface area basically being comparable due to the same knuckles being used. You don't hit with all four knuckles just because the glove is bigger, as an example.


Force is typically mass X acceleration (deceleration) So that would obviously be the same regardless of area.
Impact adds area into the equation and would take into account the larger area that the force is dispersed to. You can say the knuckles are the same but the glove acts like a cushion easing deceleration while also dispersing the force over a wider area which may not be the entire area of the glove but would be larger with a larger glove.


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## Intermission (Oct 1, 2009)

Like Khov said, 16oz gloves are used for muscle enduracnce not muscle stregnth. They are much heavier then the 4oz gloves (3 times heavier to be exact) so it is much more exausting to throw punches with them on for 5x5 sparring sessions.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Force is typically mass X acceleration (deceleration) So that would obviously be the same regardless of area.
> Impact adds area into the equation and would take into account the larger area that the force is dispersed to. *You can say the knuckles are the same but the glove acts like a cushion easing deceleration while also dispersing the force over a wider area which may not be the entire area of the glove but would be larger with a larger glove.*



I can't find any proof of this is the thing. In sparring it doesn't hurt any less to take a punch from similar material 12oz and 4oz gloves, so anecdotal proof is out. And I haven't been able to find any videos or experiments that prove anything other than the force (and therefor damage) is equal between the two.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...Nice...:thumbsup: So very, very cool. K.J. Noons is the most successful crossover. Nick outboxed him and whooped him but Vargas is a very high caliber opponent. Nick has trained and sparred with arguably the best SMW in Boxing, Andre Ward. It's Mexican blood vs. Mexican blood. You know for a fact that Nick will taunt Fernando relentlessly and both fighter's pride is at stake. Nick is the biggest bully in the game. Diaz's body punches have become his signature finishing shots. Forget about Diaz gasing. It's never happened, never will. Being a Triathlon stud, gasing is non-existent. Nick has a reach advantage and a solid chin that's taken brutal punches from the hardest hitters in MMA with 4oz gloves. Props to Nick taking a Boxing match with an outstanding pro Boxer. If Nick wins, even by decision, it would be more significant than Couture's win over Toney. Another cool aspect is hearing Al Bernstein, Bob Papa and Antonio Tarver call the fight...


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

He is way to slow for boxing and just not good enough.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

oooh Nick did you learn nothing from James Toney? Stick to your own sport. He is gonna get so outclassed by Vargas its unreal - Nick's boxing is good from an MMA stand point. It is absolutely shocking from a pro boxing stand point - He has zero defense.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

edlavis88 said:


> oooh Nick did you learn nothing from James Toney? Stick to your own sport. He is gonna get so outclassed by Vargas its unreal - Nick's boxing is good from an MMA stand point. It is absolutely shocking from a pro boxing stand point - He has zero defense.



Yeah his boxing defense sure sucks in those 4oz gloves. :confused05:


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

khov, always enjoy a debate, unfortunately don't have time to get fully into it this time.

Put it this way, find out how Nick Diaz (same weight as Andre Ward) does in the ring with him. Nick is waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy out of his depth against Andre. Guys like Andre box since they are little kids, compete in hundreds of amateur fights, they polish themselves into fine fine specimins, not like most 'semi pro' boxers who are for some reason called professional. I would dare say that 99% of 'pro boxers' are actually semi pro. I would also dare say that 99% of them would be beaten by most olympic level amateur boxers.

Hopefully Diaz fights Martinez, that will say it all. 

Intermission, I think you mean 16oz gloves are 4 times heavier to be exact than 4oz?


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## bjjmatmop (Nov 29, 2010)

Looks like Vargas is out, Jeff Lacey is in. Either way I think Diaz will be taking a nap.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

If that's true that is a big step up in competition for Diaz. If he can pull this one off it will be a big credit to the well-roundedness of MMA fighters.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Indeed it is and last I heard he may fight Kelly Pavlik. That would be an even tougher fight for Diaz than Lacy, given the only guys who have beaten Pavlik are the top level guys (Martinez, BHOP).

It would be an absolute war because Pavlik is a big banger and comes to fight. A lot more suited to Pavlik style than a slick, technical boxer type like a Martinez or a BHOP.

But the word 'pro boxer' definately gets too much credit in MMA circles. There are 'pro boxers' and then there are pro boxers. The former are like MMA guys going around in beer leagues on some local ranch, the later are like MMA guys in the UFC. Pavlik is one of the later, not one of the best in boxing, but definately deserved to be in the top promotion for boxing if there was one.


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## joey.jupiter (Apr 7, 2010)

edlavis88 said:


> oooh Nick did you learn nothing from James Toney? Stick to your own sport. He is gonna get so outclassed by Vargas its unreal - Nick's boxing is good from an MMA stand point. It is absolutely shocking from a pro boxing stand point - He has zero defense.


Boxing someone in MMA matches to boxing someone in a boxing match is two completely different things really.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I doubt this is gonna happen. Dana said he was gonna meet with Diaz after Shields/GSP and I think he will offer Diaz the next shot at GSP.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Toxic said:


> I doubt this is gonna happen. Dana said he was gonna meet with Diaz after Shields/GSP and I think he will offer Diaz the next shot at GSP.


I think so too.

GSP doesn't seem overly interested in going to middleweight either.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Toxic said:


> I doubt this is gonna happen. Dana said he was gonna meet with Diaz after Shields/GSP and I think he will offer Diaz the next shot at GSP.


If this happens I think Shields will be back at MW in no time.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

^^^^^^

Yep. 

It all lines up pretty well, right along with my post count!


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

khoveraki said:


> But for kickboxing? Overeem was an MMA fighter long before he was a K-1 champion. Mousasi was an MMA fighter for ages before beating the K-1 champion. For BJJ? Werdum didn't win his first ADCC until years after starting MMA. Jeff Monson was also in MMA for two years before winning an ADCC championship. And in wrestling GSP had zero background before training in MMA and now he's a world-class wrestler, training with the Canadian Olympic team.


Ok, have a bit more time, I already answered the 'pro boxer' myth.

Onto the part above: Didn't Mousasi also have amateur boxing experience? Could be wrong, but that is besides the point. My point is Mousasi didn't beat an elite kickboxer (like I said, not everyone in K1 is elite).

GSP is also training with the Canadian Olympic Team, but how good are these guys on a global stage and how would GSP do against the best technical wrestlers at their own sport where points etc are on the line? Not too well without dedicating hiself to it 100% I imagine.

Werdum, wasn't he training BJJ before starting MMA anyways? Regardless of winning ADCC?

Reem, fair point.

But there are always exceptions to a rule just as an old man Ray Mercer knocked cold a former UFC champ. He didn't exactly knock out Cain Velasquez and he sure as hell would probably lose the majority of MMA fights with top level MMA fighters.

I do agree though, some of these MMA guys are becoming very very proficient in other sports, but they are still generalists and the vast majority of the time, will lose to top level competition at the pure version of the sport (unless of course like Jacare they came to MMA after being an athlete at another discipline first).

I also can't wait for more to learn good boxing like JDS and Eddie Alvarez as they become wrecking machines. Or more boxers cross-training.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well even today it is still common for a mixed martial artist to start out primarily in one discipline. Then after that they go to MMA. So all these guys having distinctions isn't surprising.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

No, that is right Kanto.

This is my point, that not many guys who start out at boxing and get to a top level at it ever enter MMA. Which is what is disappointing at this time. It also explains why guys who start out in a primary discipline can easily go back to their original discipline and compete, whereas you don't get the same level guys from boxing, hence why most MMA fighters would get blitzed if they went up against top P4P boxers.

Hopefully Diaz does it, because once all these guys are are on UFC styled contracts, there will be no more top level MMA guys fighting boxing matches. The only hope then is that some top level boxers actually cross train properly for a couple of years and try their hand at MMA (none of this Mercer or Toney crap).


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well from what I understand Pac Man is seriously thinking about it. Incidently it wouldn't surprise me. Honestly I don't see this fight with Diaz going through cause Dana is going to throw enough money or something like that at Nick and he'll take it.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Yeh Dana will give him the GSP shot.

Pac Man is talking about cross training? Where was that written? I can't see it at all, not when your getting 20mil a fight in boxing!

Guys like he will not come over. But perhaps someone like Berto is more likely and would be very interesting to see how he goes....


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

And there are some talks about how Diaz may actually be a legit challenge to GSP. As for the Pac-Man question, I read it sometime ago when people were talking about how he has no more challenges in boxing. But that was a while back.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Yeh Pac won't jump from boxing unfortunately. He still has Juan Manuel Marquez in a 3rd fight, a lot of fans want to see that fight more than any other fight (behind a Mayweather fight).

Then you have Timothy Bradley, that's another good opponent for Pac at his prime division (140).

Finally, you have Sergio Martinez at 154 (division below middleweight) if Pac wants to fight the middle-weight kingpin which would really put a stamp on his legacy given Sergio is also a top pound for pound fighter and a lot bigger.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, unfortunate that the Mayweather fight may not happen because something keeps coming up. There is a reason that Mayweather retired first. But Pac-Man going up probably isn't surprising.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Fine Wine said:


> Yeh Pac won't jump from boxing unfortunately. He still has Juan Manuel Marquez in a 3rd fight, a lot of fans want to see that fight more than any other fight (behind a Mayweather fight).
> 
> Then you have Timothy Bradley, that's another good opponent for Pac at his prime division (140).
> 
> Finally, you have Sergio Martinez at 154 (division below middleweight) if Pac wants to fight the middle-weight kingpin which would really put a stamp on his legacy given Sergio is also a top pound for pound fighter and a lot bigger.


I agree i see no reason for Pacman to jump to MMA , but i dont understand Diaz's thought process , he isnt like Manny he isnt proven he should stay and fight GSP or other top UFC guys to prove his worth he looks like he is ducking them at the moment.


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## joey.jupiter (Apr 7, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> I agree i see no reason for Pacman to jump to MMA , but i dont understand Diaz's thought process , he isnt like Manny he isnt proven he should stay and fight GSP or other top UFC guys to prove his worth he looks like he is ducking them at the moment.


No he doesn't, he's trying to actually get these fights. Watch all his interviews, he's tired of fighting "chumps", he wants real competition and good money. They aren't giving him that so he's giving them a wake up call by threatening to jump ship. He's defo not ducking.


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