# ***OFFICIAL*** - Cheick Kongo vs. Mostapha Al Turk DISCUSSION THREAD (pre/post)



## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

****OFFICIAL*** - Cheick Kongo vs. Mustapha Al Turk DISCUSSION THREAD (pre/post)*
















Conduct all your discussion pre & post-fight on this fight, between two Heavyweight contenders with *Cheick Kongo* facing off against *Mustapha Al Turk* in *HERE. All* other threads concerning anything during this fight, or its outcome *WILL BE MERGED INTO THIS ONE*

Thanks guys

*MLS*


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

Kongo is going to get the T/KO in the first or second round.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I think Kongo will lose this.

Mustapha Al-Turk will probably be able to take him down and control him. It'll be boring and horrible but Kongo isn't that good of a striker and while Al-Turk sucks on his feet he is powerful.


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## Meshuggeth (May 26, 2008)

I think the same thing. I'm thinking Turk will take Congo down and try to pound him out.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

The Legend said:


> Kongo is going to get the T/KO in the first or second round.


I feel the same way. I think he'll catch him and rock him, then he'll win by TKO.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Kongo should win this, I don't know much about his opponent but I feel fairly confident that he'll win.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

This should be a fun fight. Kongo by TKO round 2.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

I hope Kongo loses..I don't like him, idk why. :dunno:


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## Villian (Jul 23, 2008)

Kongo via 1st rd TKO


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

kongo via 1 rd ko . i dont know why people hype mustafa that much


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## Shamrock-Ortiz (Sep 22, 2006)

This is a fight that can easily go either way. 

Mustapha can take him down, will he do it every round and win a decision? Or will Kongo knock him out in the small parts of this fight that take place on the feet?

dontazo, who is hyping Mustafa? I'd like to see.

I think some people just realise Kongo is very easily taken down.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

Al Turk could go ape shit on Kongo's brain stem or Cheick gets the ko


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## PirateNinja415 (Dec 3, 2007)

Kongo has improved his wrestling quite a bit as shown in the Heath Herring fight, and with a new camp i'm sure his ground game will only improve. i'm hoping this fight won't make it to the ground and kongo can ko al turk in the first or second round


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Kongo is one of the most overated Hw's there is, that said I dont know much about Al Turk.


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## Jundon! (Sep 10, 2008)

Al Turk by TKO GnP I hope.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

5-2 in the Octagon, 2 losses due to controversial/very close split decisions and he's still getting new comers, "no names" opponents. How is over rated?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Kongo is a one dimensional striker and he isnt even exceptional by anymeans at standing, Kongo is merely a mid level HW because the up and comers like Cain, Carwin and Dos Santos havent been given the opportunity to steam roll his ass.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

I don't think he's one dimensional. His overall striking is pretty good technically, one of the best in his division and he's got KO power. His wrestling is actually decent and very under rated IMO. His main weakness is the ground but he's got some GnP. He's working on his grappling and will only improve over time. 

What have you seen from Dos Santos really to be so sure he'd kiss Kongo's ass? See, that's what I call over rating a fighter. I'm not saying Kongo is the best HW out there but he's clearly a top 5 contender and IMO he deserves more established opponents than no names like Evensen or Al-Turk. Let's give him guys like Cain, Carwin and see what happens.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Kongo is an average HW at best.

The guy has pretty good striking but it's not top notch.

His takedown defense is horrible and he's not good off his back.

Kongo has one win that matters and that was over Cro Cop who has looked horrible and that win gets less impressive everytime Mirko fights.

Kongo got beaten by Herring who has sucked lately and Marrero who is a LHW.

He also had a terrible performance against Assuerio Silva who basically sucks.

Kongo isn't a good fighter I wish they would give him someone legit like Gonzaga, Cain. Or At least Carwin who even though I don't think he's very good would walk through Kongo.

Al-Turk isn't very good but he still has a very good chance IMO because his takedowns are as good if not better then Assuerio who got Kongo down at will and Al-Turk is much more active on top.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

I just don't like Kongo, I could care less if he was fighting or not.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Kongo is an average HW at best.
> 
> The guy has pretty good striking but it's not top notch.
> 
> ...



WORD!, Id rep this shit if I could.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Toxic we don't always agree but I think we are on the same page here. Somehow Kongo became this great HW in a lot of people's minds and honestly all he did was win a rather crappy fight against a washed up Mirko.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Keep talking guys, it will only prove my point even more.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

How are we proving your point? Nobody jumped on the board after the Kongo/Cro Cop fight and said holly shit this Kongo guy is a monster!! No they said WTF happened to Cro Cop, Kongo didnt look good Cro Cop looked mediocre, Heath Herring was at best only ever a solid HW he has never at least in my books been considered a serious contender (not taking anything away from Herring), you say he has decent and underated wrestling, well have you looked at the UFC's HW division? Lesnar, Carwin, Cain, O'Brein, Couture, the HW division has great wrestlers Kongo's mediocre at best wrestling just doesnt cut it.


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

kongo tko


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Al-Turk looks crazy uncomfortable. And wow Kongo stuffed a takedown.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Miami/Cal game is pretty good right now.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Jahvid Best is a monster and Kongo and Al Turk suck lol.


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

whats the deal with kongo and balls ?


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

those must hurt


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

**** that fight


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

kongo vs velasquez FTW !!!!


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

That was a horrible fight. Kongo has good GnP but I'm still not impressed by him beating on Al-Turk.

His takedown defense is improved but to be fair Al-Turk's takedowns where just horrid.

Also Kongo needs to stop kneeing guys in the nuts.


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## Wise (Oct 8, 2006)

Say what you want but I think Kongo was going for the balls. That shit wasnt an errant knee, it looked very aimed to me. Was no where close to stomach or thigh and its not like Turk moved into it. Either he has no control over his knees or shit was on purpose. 

I doubt it made much of a difference but still that was pretty weak.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Well Kongo just furthered my thoughts that I can watch anything else during his fights and I'll be more entertained.


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## BlitzGT (Aug 16, 2008)

That was a dirty shot by Kongo.

Not impressed. He still has questionable takedown defense.


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## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

Wow... Kongo just went donkey kong on his forehead


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I still don't get why it keeps taking him a whole round to put away Evensen and Al-Turk they are horrible standing.


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

MLS said:


> Well Kongo just furthered my thoughts that I can watch anything else during his fights and I'll be more entertained.


even womens soccer ?


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

Just another invaluable Kongo fight imo...wack :thumbsdown:


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> I still don't get why it keeps taking him a whole round to put away Evensen and Al-Turk they are horrible standing.


Because he isn't that good standing



norway1 said:


> even womens soccer ?


I was watching the Miami/Cal football game and bowling during this fight.


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## NameThief (Dec 28, 2008)

bbjd7 said:


> That was a horrible fight. Kongo has good GnP but I'm still not impressed by him beating on Al-Turk.
> 
> His takedown defense is improved but to be fair Al-Turk's takedowns where just horrid.
> 
> Also Kongo needs to stop kneeing guys in the nuts.


I disagree.

I thought it was a great fight.

The knee in the balls was an intentional tit for tat.

Surprisingly brutal GNP from Kongo.


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## Rick The Impelr (Oct 5, 2008)

norway1 said:


> even womens soccer ?


That's the Norweigian Top division


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## simtom (Oct 23, 2007)

Hey it's not Kongo's fault they keep giving him no names! But he puts them away in the first round and you can't ask for much more than that! Also his only losses have been very close, imho they were bad decisions


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## Buckingham (Apr 8, 2007)

MLS said:


> Well Kongo just furthered my thoughts that I can watch anything else during his fights and I'll be more entertained.


You don't like knockouts?


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

kongo sucks . barry and hardonk both have better stand up and will ko him


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## kamikaze145 (Oct 3, 2006)

Honestly, where did they find this Al Turk guy? If your a ground fighter and your wrestling is not good enough to take down Cheick Kongo you are not going to do well against top notch competition that the UFC offers. He was brought in to lose to Kongo.


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## The Dark Knight (Jun 29, 2008)

That was nasty ground and pound. Being a Brit, I was obviously rooting for Al Turk against this Frenchman (even if the Frenchman is training in Britain), but Al Turk got his arse handed to him.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

al turk is Turk lol? he is not even british


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## ramram22 (Aug 26, 2007)

hahah, some more kongo bashing, he gets put in with bums( al turk could be alright i guess) and he puts them away in one round, what more do you want? Kongo should be one fight away from a title shot.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

That was some poundage to the head...lolz!


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

This fight again showed Kongo is pretty under rated and he definitely deserves "better", more established opponents. Hope he'll finally get it for his next fight. 

Lol @ people seeing him lose 
and double lol @ people blaming him for that low shot but forgetting he got shot too (and first). There should be a limit in being biased...


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## Vic_Rattledeth (Aug 9, 2008)

kamikaze145 said:


> Honestly, where did they find this Al Turk guy? If your a ground fighter and your wrestling is not good enough to take down Cheick Kongo you are not going to do well against top notch competition that the UFC offers. He was brought in to lose to Kongo.


Al-Turk is an ADCC champ with very good wrestling and submissions. Could it be that Kongo has just improved his TDD alot? Give Kongo some credit where it's deserved. You're just a hater.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

I realise Kongo-bashing seems to be the 'done' thing by MMA-elitists on this forum but damn. When will you guys realise that he ground game/ take down defense isn't as bad as you think? You guys don't give him credit for ANYTHING. I have no delusions and I don't think he'll ever have the HW title but I give credit where it is due. He finished two cans in the first round, what the hell else do you guys want? Once again everyone said 'HUR DUR, Kongo is going to be taken down and killed' and once again you got proven wrong. I don't know HOW he is boring, he gets two cans and beats the living daylights out of them. I don't know what more to say, what else does Kongo have to do to deserve at least a LITTLE credit? According to you guys, his stand-up sucks, his ground game sucks, his take down defense sucks, he's boring...

It just doesn't make any sense.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

His stand up doesn't suck it's just not excellent.

And his GnP is very good to be honest.

Now He has never been on the ground with a submission artist and he hasn't faced a wrestler since Marerro.

When I see him beat a guy with good submissions or a wrestler I will be impressed. Heck if he knocks out a good striker I'll be impressed.

But I don't get impressed when a guy beats on scrubs who's shots are ugly. He has enough TDD to stop horrible fighters how is that?


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> His stand up doesn't suck it's just not excellent.
> 
> And his GnP is very good to be honest.
> 
> ...


I can't remember but didn't Assuerio Silva have him down? That is the only guy with at least a Brown Belt I can think of. Also he probably faced a better wrestler last night in Al-Turk the problem with Marerro he had was Marerro was faster and Kongo didn't have as good of wrestling as he does now(I am not saying it is really good but it is better then what it was)


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Yes Assuerio Silva who is 0-3 in the UFC and got tapped by the great Brandon Vera.

Marerro was a 2 time national qualifer in D-1 much better wrestling then Al-Turk who even before this fight I thought that he had horrible shots although I did think he would get Kongo down and he and Kongo proved me wrong.


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## Temeura (Dec 28, 2008)

Kongo's takedown defence has vastly improved. I think that he should face either Gonazaga/Carwin next. If he managed to beat either of them, he deserves a title shot.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Kongo hasn't fought great ground fighters, but he has fought guys with good ground games in Silva, Marrero, and Herring. He never seemed in trouble on the ground in any other those fights. But yes, he should be fighting better competition than Evensen and Al-Turk.

What I don't get is why people give him _no_ credit for anything. _Every single fight_ people say that all his opponent has to do (regardless of the opponent) is take Kongo down and Kongo will flail around like a fish out of water and get caught in a sub or GnP'd. When exactly has this ever happened? I also don't get people discrediting his win over Mirko by saying he was washed up. At the time Mirko would have been in the top 5, and he had only been beaten by Gonzaga at that point, he wasn't 'washed up' after that loss. If anything, Gonzaga and Kongo were something of a one-two combo for Mirko's career in the UFC.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

Hey I was just trying to think of the only guy that has bjj that has faced Kongo and when he faced Vera, Vera wasn't crappy. 

As for Marerro being a 2 time national qualifier in D-1 doesn't mean he is a better wrestler(he could very well be) but my example is Tito's fights with Rashad and Vladimir Matyushenko


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

You really think Al-Turk and his terrible shots is a better wrestler then Marerro.

I mean I've watched Al-Turk's Cage Rage fights and his takedown attempts aren't good.

Even when he pinned Kongo against the cage he struggled to do the basics.

Honestly Biowza Herring, Marerro and Silva are solid ground fighters but none have very good finishing skills on the ground. Herring without knees to the head lacks GnP.

I want to see him face Cain, Carwin, Gonzaga, Nogueira, someone who is dangerous on the ground with either GnP or submissions.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Wow Al Turk is definalty not UFC material, his takedowns were horrible his stand up was horrible and every shot Kongo threw seemed to rock him. I was very unimpressed he looked like one of the bums Carwin has been decimating.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Biowza said:


> I realise Kongo-bashing seems to be the 'done' thing by MMA-elitists on this forum but damn. When will you guys realise that he ground game/ take down defense isn't as bad as you think? You guys don't give him credit for ANYTHING. I have no delusions and I don't think he'll ever have the HW title but I give credit where it is due. He finished two cans in the first round, what the hell else do you guys want? Once again everyone said 'HUR DUR, Kongo is going to be taken down and killed' and once again you got proven wrong. I don't know HOW he is boring, he gets two cans and beats the living daylights out of them. I don't know what more to say, what else does Kongo have to do to deserve at least a LITTLE credit? According to you guys, his stand-up sucks, his ground game sucks, his take down defense sucks, he's boring...
> 
> It just doesn't make any sense.


I agree man. I also find amazing that so many posters on here are being so biased about his skills and don't give him credit for anything. IMO this is mostly due to his personality that people really hate. Kongo's the nicest guy outside of the Octagon but you have to admit he can be pretty douchey towards his opponents to intimidate them or whatever (that butt kick head move at the weigh ins, not showing too much class and respect in general, can sound cocky sometimes etc.). I understand why people on here wouldn't like his personality but I think they should be able to look past that to judge him on his skill set only and give him some credit.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I have no issue with his personality. I just think he sucks.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Of course he sucks and doesn't have any skills. But he still manages to be 6-2 in the Octagon, only losing 2 very close SDs. 

I just hope he won't be getting another can next time so people can see better where he stands in that division. There are rumors about him getting Monson next, we'll see.


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## vaj3000 (Dec 28, 2008)

Was the referee a little slow to call this one or am i being paranoid?


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## Vic_Rattledeth (Aug 9, 2008)

bbjd7 said:


> You really think Al-Turk and his terrible shots is a better wrestler then Marerro.
> 
> I mean I've watched Al-Turk's Cage Rage fights and his takedown attempts aren't good.
> 
> ...


It's very amusing yet irritating at the same time to see how you try take credit away from Kongo. Hmmm Al-Turk struggled to do the basics huh? Could it be that Kongo had double underhooks and did everything right to prevent a takedown? It was not Al-Turks lack of grappling skills that kept him from taking Kongo down. It was Kongos IMPROVED take down defense. If Marerro fought Kongo again he wouldn't be succesful in taking Kngo down either.


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## Vic_Rattledeth (Aug 9, 2008)

Biowza said:


> I realise Kongo-bashing seems to be the 'done' thing by MMA-elitists on this forum but damn. When will you guys realise that he ground game/ take down defense isn't as bad as you think? You guys don't give him credit for ANYTHING. I have no delusions and I don't think he'll ever have the HW title but I give credit where it is due. He finished two cans in the first round, what the hell else do you guys want? Once again everyone said 'HUR DUR, Kongo is going to be taken down and killed' and once again you got proven wrong. I don't know HOW he is boring, he gets two cans and beats the living daylights out of them. I don't know what more to say, what else does Kongo have to do to deserve at least a LITTLE credit? According to you guys, his stand-up sucks, his ground game sucks, his take down defense sucks, he's boring...
> 
> It just doesn't make any sense.


Yes. See, this guy gets it.


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## ramram22 (Aug 26, 2007)

Mir,Lesnar, and Nog are the only guys I would comfortably bet money on over Kongo right now. I would have him even with Gonzaga.


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## Vic_Rattledeth (Aug 9, 2008)

ramram22 said:


> Mir,Lesnar, and Nog are the only guys I would comfortably bet money on over Kongo right now. I would have him even with Gonzaga.


Iunno dude. If Nog fought Kongo the way he fought Mir he would get destroyed standing. Lesnar is a really bad match up for him though


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## Wise (Oct 8, 2006)

Do you people not remember Kongo walking out and taking a huge dump in the cage against Herring or am I just crazy?


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## ramram22 (Aug 26, 2007)

he lost a close sd, that I thought he won to Heath; but His takedown defense looks good, and he is the guy that outstriked Mirko. He has done what he is supposed to do in his last 2 fights.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Wise said:


> Do you people not remember Kongo walking out and taking a huge dump in the cage against Herring or am I just crazy?


What are you talking about? Hope you're not implying that he got owned by Herring.


ramram22 said:


> Mir,Lesnar, and Nog are the only guys I would comfortably bet money on over Kongo right now. I would have him even with Gonzaga.


I don't think that he could beat Gonzaga, but I sort of see what you're saying. He's improving a lot.


bbjd7 said:


> I have no issue with his personality. I just think he sucks.


And yet you seem to admittedly have no reason to say that he sucks other than it being the cool thing to say around here.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Vic_Rattledeth said:


> It's very amusing yet irritating at the same time to see how you try take credit away from Kongo. Hmmm Al-Turk struggled to do the basics huh? Could it be that Kongo had double underhooks and did everything right to prevent a takedown? It was not Al-Turks lack of grappling skills that kept him from taking Kongo down. It was Kongos IMPROVED take down defense. If Marerro fought Kongo again he wouldn't be succesful in taking Kngo down either.


Al-Turk had double underhooks during the fight at one point I remember seeing it because I mentioned it to the people watching the fight with me.

And Biowza the fact he lost to a LHW, then barely beat a guy who is 0-3 in the UFC, beat Cro Cop in a solid performance but nothing amazing, and lost to Herring who has been crap lately in his only tough fights doesn't impress me.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> And Biowza the fact he lost to a LHW, then barely beat a guy who is 0-3 in the UFC, beat Cro Cop in a solid performance but nothing amazing, and lost to Herring who has been crap lately in his only tough fights doesn't impress me.


I too love discrediting wins. You only say he sucks because everyone else does, you actually have no real reasoning behind it. 

You say 'he lost' but you fail to mention that both his losses were split decisions. Split decisions. Marrero currently fights at 205 but so what? Kongo was only 4 pounds heavier than him. Heath Herring? Say he sucks and discredit him all you want, but Herring is a really solid fighter and Kongo but on a really solid performance. Do you honestly think that Herring is a bad fighter who totally mauled Kongo the entire fight? You'd be out of your mind. Yeah, lets rip on Assuerio Silva. Former King of Pancrase who lost a decision to Tim Sylvia, lost to Brandon Vera won two fights in other orgs then fought Kongo. 

I'm sorry Kongo isn't a Brazilian or from New Jersey, but your unreasoned hate is getting seriously out of hand.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

The guy has not once had a fun fight against a talented fighter maybe that's why I don't like him.

I like plenty of fighters who aren't Brazilian or from Jersey.

He looked horrible against Marrero, Horrible against Herring, Horrible against Assuerio, and while he beat Mirko the fight sucked to watch.

And if the fact they where split decisions matters how about the fact he won his 2 biggest fights by a majority decision and in a 29-28 decision.

Kongo has never had a dominant performance against anyone who matters.


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## Wise (Oct 8, 2006)

> What are you talking about? Hope you're not implying that he got owned by Herring.


Im not impying that he got owned. Im implying that he didnt look impressive and lost against a sub average UFC HW. 

Heres the records of guys who you all put in the vaunted 6-2 Kongo win list in the UFC. 

Gilbert Adana 0-2 in the UFC. 

Christian Wellisch 2-2 in the UFC. 

Assuerio Silva 0-3 in the UFC.

Crocop 1-2 in the UFC. 

Dan Evensen 0-2 in the UFC.

Mustapha Al-Turk 0-1 in the UFC(now an impressive 6-4 overall).

So all together the UFC records of the guys hes beaten is 3-11. Plus the fact that the two guys hes lost to, albeit split decisions losses that I thought he earned is 2-3 and 1-2.

This is why Im not impressed with Kongo, this is why I think he is not a top HW. You can try and change my mind all you want, but its not gonna happen. His best win is against a washed up Crocop who looks like shit these days and managed to take down Kongo no problem in the first round and mounted him easily.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Great point wise. And it's not like he has been walking through everyone he faces.

He's walked through 4 scrubs. And then he dropped rounds in his wins over Cro Cop and Assuerio.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> The guy has not once had a fun fight against a talented fighter maybe that's why I don't like him.


Kongo/Crocop wasn't fun? That fight was all over the place, Kongo got mounted, he escaped, the fight went to the ground, Kongo landed an axe kick, there was great clinch work, it went against the cage, they stood and banged, Crocop got walked down, Mirko threw head kicks, the crowd was nuts, damn I mean there was even some controversy.



> He looked horrible against Marrero, Horrible against Herring, Horrible against Assuerio, and while he beat Mirko the fight sucked to watch.


He didn't look great against Marrero, but that fight was really good for him in terms of him realizing what he needs to work on. Against Marrero, I'm not quite sure how you can say he looked 'horrible' I mean he got back to his feet quite a bit. But I'll agree he didn't look very good.

Horrible against Herring...what? Are you serious? Coming off the heels of all this criticism about his ground game he comes out and takes Herring down repeatedly. How was that not impressive at least in the context of how bad everyone thought he was? 

I wouldn't say he was 'horrible' against Assuerio Silva, he wasn't the best but not horrible. He got up every time he was taken down which was impressive in that everyone thought he'd be held down for the entire fight. How is him always getting back to his feet justifiable in calling him 'horrible'?

I've already addressed how wrong you are about the Mirko fight.



> And if the fact they where split decisions matters how about the fact he won his 2 biggest fights by a majority decision and in a 29-28 decision.


Majority and Unanimous decisions. Split decision. I think you see the difference. And it's not like I'm saying that Kongo won either the Marrero fight or the Herring fight. I'm just saying, particularly in the case of the Herring fight that Kongo didn't get his ass beat which is what you seem to think. You obviously never saw, or completely forgot about the fight.



> Kongo has never had a dominant performance against anyone who matters.


Mirko didn't matter at the time? Of course he did. Don't pretend as if Mirko was totally ruined entirely after the Gonzaga fight.


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## Vic_Rattledeth (Aug 9, 2008)

Wow people...just wow. It's pretty easy to try and make someones record unimpressive if you rationalize with bias and focus on negatives. Watch as I do it with Big Nog, Mir, Lesnar an Gonzaga.

Big Nog- His boxing looked like shit against Tim Sylvia and got owned for 3 rounds until he got the lucky guilotine. Besides Tim Sylvia is washed up these days have you seen him against Couture and Fedor?!?! He also just got owned by Frank Mir lolz. 

Mir- This guy got beat by Marcio freaking cruz and Brandon Vera who is washed up these days. Look at the peoples records who he's beaten.
Wes Sims- 0-3 in the UFC
Dan Christison- 1-1 in the UFC
Antoni Hardonk- no ground game and holds an impressive 8-4 record LOL
And he was getting his ass kicked against Brock Lesnar who was still a total noob at the time.

Lesnar- Lesnar got beat by FRANK MUR who was totally washed up. Then he beat a less then stellar B fighter Heath Herring who can't defend takedowns. Then he beat a 45 year old man past his prime whoopdie doo. I'm NOT impressed by Lesnar. Any good striker will beat him.

Gonzaga- Gonzaga is he most overrated HW ever. He got a lucky K.O on a washed up Cro Cop (have you seen him fight these days??LOL). He then got OWNED by Couture and Werdum who got whooped by Dos Santos! All he's beaten is cans. He has no gas tank and he gives up easily. He'll never be champ.

See how easy that is? I don't buy any of that shit, but this is what you're doing to Kongo. It's stupid.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I never said Kongo got his ass kicked but when has he ever really kicked a legit fighters ass.

He had two very good rounds against Cro Cop but he never was close to putting him away.

Cro Cop vs Kongo wasn't fun it had some moments but honestly a rather boring fight.

The Marerro fight was boring.

The Heath Herring fight was ugly ugly grappling it wasn't fun.

And the Assuerio fight was horrible it only get overlooked a bit because Werdum vs Arlovski was even worse.

That's true but looking back Mirko is trash right now it's clear and Kongo did a great thing by beating him but some wins look better as time goes on and some look worse that one is looking worse because Mirko can't really fight anymore.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Vic_Rattledeth said:


> Wow people...just wow. It's pretty easy to try and make someones record unimpressive if you rationalize with bias and focus on negatives. Watch as I do it with Big Nog, Mir, Lesnar an Gonzaga.
> 
> Big Nog- His boxing looked like shit against Tim Sylvia and got owned for 3 rounds until he got the lucky guilotine. Besides Tim Sylvia is washed up these days have you seen him against Couture and Fedor?!?! He also just got owned by Frank Mir lolz.
> 
> ...


Nogueira actually only got owned for one round in the Sylvia fight and Nogueira is on the downside no question I said that before he fought Mir.

Until Mir owned Nogueira he wasn't a proven HW lately either the guy hadn't really done anything.

Lesnar's win over Herring was impressive but only to a point and his win over Couture was very impressive. However he still has things to prove as well like submission defense.

Gonzaga needs to figure out what he is and needs some key wins atm he doesn't have those his win over Cro Cop was nice but he needs to reestablish himself in the division.

Everyone in the HW division has things to prove.

Kongo has more then others but no one is bullet proof except maybe Fedor if he outstrikes Arlovski.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Excellent point Vic, you can do that to ANY fighter in the UFC and it sounds just as retarded. All it is is pointless and meaningless MMA math, you only count wins in the UFC? You count them only as 'wins' or 'losses' you don't pay attention who was beaten and who lost? You even count the performance of the fighter AFTER he has been beaten. Come on... It is just mind blowingly stupid.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

What you guys don't seem to look at is how the performance looked. And the type of fighter he was facing.

Kongo hasn't had a dominant decision or a finish against a solid guy.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Kongo hasn't had a dominant decision or a finish against a solid guy.


And I always answer with the same thing. 

He put on a solid performance against Herring (You seem to have given up on saying that he looked horrible)

He put on a 'better-than-solid' performance against Mirko.

It's like a constant circle of you repeating points, me proving them wrong, you giving up on the point, then repeating another point.


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## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

so because he has only fought 1 superstar, he isnt deserving of a title shot.


I think part of the problem with internet MMA warriors is the fact they want fighters to fight like who they WANT THEM TO, rather than how they do


People wanna discredit Kongo because he hasnt done spectacular shit like liver kick KO's and omoplatas...ALSO because he hasnt fought any "big names"....but at the same time they say he isnt worthy of any of it because he hasnt proven himself

:confused02: :confused02: :confused02:


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Vic_Rattledeth said:


> Wow people...just wow. It's pretty easy to try and make someones record unimpressive if you rationalize with bias and focus on negatives. Watch as I do it with Big Nog, Mir, Lesnar an Gonzaga.
> 
> Big Nog- His boxing looked like shit against Tim Sylvia and got owned for 3 rounds until he got the lucky guilotine. Besides Tim Sylvia is washed up these days have you seen him against Couture and Fedor?!?! He also just got owned by Frank Mir lolz.
> 
> ...


Beautiful post, everybody should read this. 

Rogan would say "WOW, right on the button.... WOOOW!!"


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Biowza said:


> And I always answer with the same thing.
> 
> He put on a solid performance against Herring (You seem to have given up on saying that he looked horrible)
> 
> ...


A solid performance? That was one of the ugliest grappling MMA fights I've ever seen both guys looked horrible.

It was a solid win it was a boring fight and he still didn't dominant or finish an opponent something you still haven't answered.

You make points that don't matter he survives on the ground against below average and average ground fighters that's great.

You don't prove my points wrong you change them.

When has Kongo Finished or won a dominant decision against a solid fighter?


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> A solid performance? That was one of the ugliest grappling MMA fights I've ever seen both guys looked horrible.


It WAS a solid performance. You need to realize that in the context of how bad everyone was saying (and it seems, still does) he was, he did very well. No-one expected Kongo to do half as well as he did in that fight. Technical mastery? No, but it was a solid performance for a good fighter who has come a long way since his first fights in the octagon.



> It was a solid win it was a boring fight and he still didn't dominant or finish an opponent something you still haven't answered.


If you're referring to the Mirko fight then I've clearly already addressed your idea that it was a boring fight. As another example of you ignoring my points and repeating them, I actually described how the fight was interesting in that it was on the ground, standing...etc. You essentially responded with 'nuh-uh...twas boring' and now you are once again ignoring my previous point with your insisting that it was a boring fight.

To finish Mirko would have been a huge ask from Kongo. He fought a very smart fight and didn't get reckless with his strikes, he won a clear unanimous decision and totally dominated the last two rounds. I don't know what more you want.



> You make points that don't matter he survives on the ground against below average and average ground fighters that's great.


I haven't brought that up at all. I only mention this point when people say that he has 'horrible' sub-defense. My point is that it's not horrible at all.



> You don't prove my points wrong you change them.


When have I done that?



> When has Kongo Finished or won a dominant decision against a solid fighter?


Didn't I just answer that? He won a unanimous decision against Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic with an honerable mention going to his solid performance against Heath "The Texas Crazy Horse" Herring.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Biowza said:


> It WAS a solid performance. You need to realize that in the context of how bad everyone was saying (and it seems, still does) he was, he did very well. No-one expected Kongo to do half as well as he did in that fight. Technical mastery? No, but it was a solid performance for a good fighter who has come a long way since his first fights in the octagon.
> 
> 
> If you're referring to the Mirko fight then I've clearly already addressed your idea that it was a boring fight. As another example of you ignoring my points and repeating them, I actually described how the fight was interesting in that it was on the ground, standing...etc. You essentially responded with 'nuh-uh...twas boring' and now you are once again ignoring my previous point with your insisting that it was a boring fight.
> ...


Basically you are saying because people said he's shit on the ground and he looked like crap that's a good performance.

The Mirko fight featured a ton of boring clinching and it wasn't exciting. Had some flashes of things but it wasn't an exciting fight all in all even Swick vs Burkman had a head kick and Arlovski vs Werdum had some flurries and a slap does that make those exciting fights? Listing a couple of moments and watching to strikers on the ground which wasn't fun except the first round when Kongo got out of that horrible triangle.

He beat Mirko 29-28 a nice win but not even near as dominant as you make it sound.

You just did it again I asked when he has had a dominant decision or a finish over a legit fighter and you give me a 29-28 decision and a solid performance over Herring that's not what I asked at all.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Basically you are saying because people said he's shit on the ground and he looked like crap that's a good performance.


No, not even close. You need to pay attention, I thought I made this very clear. I said it was solid performance. The performance of a fighter is based on their expected result weighed against the actual result. It was expected that Kongo would lose by submission 0:01 into the first round, however he did much better than this. He took Herring down, defended some Herring takedowns, worked some GnP and lost a very close fight. Hence, it was a solid performance. What don't you understand about this?



> The Mirko fight featured a ton of boring clinching and it wasn't exciting. Had some flashes of things but it wasn't an exciting fight all in all even Swick vs Burkman had a head kick and Arlovski vs Werdum had some flurries and a slap does that make those exciting fights? Listing a couple of moments and watching to strikers on the ground which wasn't fun except the first round when Kongo got out of that horrible triangle.


I didn't list "a couple of moments" it isn't like what I listed were isolated events. It was the fight, it was standing, it was on the ground, it was on the cage, there was controversy, good striking shown, and even a damn sub attempt.



> He beat Mirko 29-28 a nice win but not even near as dominant as you make it sound.


And how do I make it sound? He won a UD against a top 5 heavyweight. Simple fact, the fight wasn't close and Kongo was the clear winner. 



> You just did it again I asked when he has had a dominant decision or a finish over a legit fighter and you give me a 29-28 decision and a solid performance over Herring that's not what I asked at all.


Well then if you agree that he had a solid performance against Herring, then what's the problem? The win against Mirko was probably the most dominant decision win of his career. Probably didn't win all three rounds, but he looked excellent and made Mirko leave the UFC.

If you reply with the same points again without addressing mine I'm going to bash my head against a wall.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Biowza said:


> No, not even close. You need to pay attention, I thought I made this very clear. I said it was solid performance. The performance of a fighter is based on their expected result weighed against the actual result. It was expected that Kongo would lose by submission 0:01 into the first round, however he did much better than this. He took Herring down, defended some Herring takedowns, worked some GnP and lost a very close fight. Hence, it was a solid performance. What don't you understand about this?
> 
> 
> I didn't list "a couple of moments" it isn't like what I listed were isolated events. It was the fight, it was standing, it was on the ground, it was on the cage, there was controversy, good striking shown, and even a damn sub attempt.
> ...


Once again I responded to this the expectation of his ground game was that it was shit. So when he looked like crap on the ground you claim that's a solid performance?

Getting swept a ton of times fighting in a sloppy grappling fight isn't a solid performance in a MMA. It might be a moral victory for Kongo and it might show improvement for Kongo but looking a bit better then people think you will isn't a solid performance when people expect you to look horrible.

A fight can be boring with stand up, ground game, clinching, and a horrible sub attempt. I'm not sure why knees in the nuts make a fight more exciting to you but personally when fighters break rules fights become less exciting.

Leites vs Marquardt was an amazing fight that wasn't nearly as good because of all the penalties.

Kongo won the fight but he didn't dominant the whole fight. He won 2 of 3 rounds. Which is a good performance but not nearly as one sided as you like to make it sound.

I was quoting your words I don't think his performance against Herring was solid. If a 29-28 decision is his most dominant win in the UFC how don't you see this? He has never finished or dominated a good fighter.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

You guys are just turning circles over and over again. I think we can all agree with this:

- Kongo is not the best HW out there but he's very under-rated and deserves more respect. He could be considered top 5 HW in the UFC. 
- If he beats a contender next (Cain, GG or Carwin), he's legit for a shot.

End of story.


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## Vic_Rattledeth (Aug 9, 2008)

Xerxes said:


> You guys are just turning circles over and over again. I think we can all agree with this:
> 
> - Kongo is not the best HW out there but he's very under-rated and deserves more respect. He could be considered top 5 HW in the UFC.
> - If he beats a contender next (Cain, GG or Carwin), he's legit for a shot.
> ...


This man speaks the truth.


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## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

Sekou said:


> so because he has only fought 1 superstar, he isnt deserving of a title shot?!?
> 
> 
> I think part of the problem with internet MMA warriors is the fact they want fighters to fight like how they WANT THEM TO, rather than how they do
> ...



.....


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I have no problem with Kongo fighting a big name. But in his two fights against legit HW's he is 1-1 he lost a split decision against a past his prime Herring, and he won a 29-28 UD against Mirko.

That's not very impressive.


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