# Brock vs. Cain



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)




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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

E-p-i-c


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

nick the face needs to be hired by mainevent


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## NikosCC (May 16, 2007)

hahaha Awesome find..


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## suffersystem (Feb 4, 2007)

Goddamn this is going to be one hell of a fight!


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## Indestructibl3 (Apr 2, 2009)

Yeah that was pretty sweet, psyched for this one!


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## kickstar (Nov 12, 2009)

awsome trailer....i can't wait for that fight...


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

*Fueling The Cain Train: Five Reasons Velasquez Can Beat Brock Lesnar*

It's an alright article.






Certain factors of a fighter's game can play a part in the outcome of a fight.

If a fighter improves in the standup, it can give him an edge over his opponent — especially if his opponent's striking is only proven to be good for a certain amount of time before gassing.

If a fight improves in his ground game, that could also show that the fighter in question is more dimensional than previously thought.

See Brock Lesnar at UFC 116 for an example.

Speaking of the champ, he's got a date with Cain Velasquez at UFC 121 in November — the card that is still believed to see the winner of next month's Middleweight title war face a returning Vitor Belfort, as well as the debut of The Ultimate Fighter 11's Middleweight champion Court McGee.

Those two we can touch on at another moment in time.

For now, though, I'd like to address those who have bought into the "Lesnar's back and better" hype.

Of course, he's fully recovered from a life-threatening bout with Diverticulitis, and even more so, he's finally gotten a win by way of a legitimate submission hold with his second-round victory-by-arm-triangle over Shane Carwin.

Does that mean Lesnar is going to steamroll over Velasquez?

Yeah, about as easily as Rogerio Nogueira "steamrolled" over Jason Brilz.

Translation: Brock's got himself a tough test ahead of him, whether people believe Cain to be a threat to Brock or not.

"But Dale, why are you so sure that Cain can beat Brock? Brock's just too much of a beast to be beaten by a guy like Cain!"

True, Lesnar's a beast.

More true: Lesnar is a man.

On any given day, any fighter can be defeated. Brock Lesnar is no exception to that statement no matter how much you convince yourself otherwise.

So why can Cain Velasquez beat Brock Lesnar?

I see five reasons why Cain Velasquez can beat Brock Lesnar, actually.

1. Cain Has Proven That He Can Stand. Brock Hasn't Proven As Such (Yet).
Brock Lesnar's stand-up game is not the best, as the Shane Carwin fight proved. Lesnar literally had to take Carwin down in order to set up that arm triangle.

You'd think Cain Velasquez would have done the same up until now, and he has.

Then came Cheick Kongo and Antonio Minotauro Nogueira.

We'll touch on Kongo later on because a lot was learned about Cain against Kongo, but the Minotauro fight at UFC 110 is the real key factor here.

Cain may have beaten a Minotauro Nogueira that seems different than the one that was such a force in PRIDE, but at no real time in Cain's career could anyone recall Cain standing with his opponent and acquiring the KO win in any fashion relevant to that of the way he finished Minotauro.

Even if the fight was only about two minutes and twenty seconds of Cain on his feet, the fact of the matter is that Cain showed that he could last on his feet against a still-elite fighter who just happens to be one of the greatest Brazilian BJJ practitioners in the game to not have the last name "Gracie".

Mind you, Brock's only had about six fights in his pro career, and like Cain, only one of his fights has gone a complete three-round distance, but from my vantage point, Brock has seemed to have the exact same game plan for every fight so far, and that plan is to take the fight to the ground.

Every fight sans the first go-round with Frank Mir, the war with Heath Herring, and his return to the cage against Carwin has ended the same way: 

With Brock on the ground and pounding away at some area of either his opponent's body or his opponent's face

Brock can do the same thing with Cain if he wants, but he also better prepare for a Cain Velasquez that wants to keep the fight on the feet.

Maybe Brock thinks another session or so with Peter Welch, the boxing coach for Kenny Florian, might be a good way to prep up for Cain, but he needs to prove his supporters right and keep that stand-up game evolving like everyone says it will.

If he doesn't, out goes the reign of Brock Lesnar as UFC Heavyweight Champ, and in comes loss number two on the record of Mr. Lesnar.

2. "Cain The Terminator" Can Take What Lesnar Will Give And Then Some
This is where the references to the Kongo fight can begin, and rightfully so.

Lesnar isn't Kongo, but still an good eye on the action indicated that Kongo's best shots caught Cain throughout various seconds of their UFC 99 battle, and yet Cain didn't fall down.

As a matter of fact, he actually was able to take down Kongo after eating a shot.

This tells me that, although to most it will seem outlandish to even think it close to possible, the notion of Cain Velasquez absorbing some of Brock's best shots and still being able to land some shots of his own is by no means anywhere close to unlikely.

I know I've said that guys like Brock are men and all men can be beaten, and I'm not labeling Velasquez as an exception.

What I will say though is that men are capable of doing some unbelievable things, especially when they have a bountiful amount at stake.

Brock can get Peter Welch or even Freddie Roach to help with his Boxing, and maybe Brock's two best shots will turn Cain's seemingly-iron jaw into a glass jaw.

But even Brock Lesnar's best shots I don't think can take Cain to the ground and keep him there.

When you take a shot at Cain, he keeps right on coming back as if those shots had never landed and he takes the fight to where he wants it, which is on the ground.

Brock could land his best shots on Cain if he wants, but I think Cain could be the one that takes it to the ground — and not by a cranium-shattering blow from Lesnar either.

3. "Are Ya SURE He's A Heavyweght? 'Cause He Doesn't Move Like One!"

I'm sure many could have seen this coming: this is the part where I mention Cain's cardio.

I'm not talking about going three rounds with Kongo. Lesnar did that with Herring.

I'm talking about the ability to move around the cage, absorb punishment, deliver punishment, and not seem tired at the end of the fight.

If you ask me, Cain Velasquez has the best cardio out of really any of the UFC's Heavyweight division and one of the best cardiovascular endurances in the UFC.

Brock might prove to have the same insane-as-hell cardio that Cain has, but the difference between the two in my eyes is that Brock does get exhausted in fights.

Even if he doesn't gas himself out, he does tire out and slow down.

So far, Cain hasn't, done so in his career.

He's taken a few good shots in some of his previous fights, but Cain has yet to exhaust himself.

If Cain does what he's been doing in his past fights and stays active without investing in one sick shot to Lesnar, it could be all over.


4. Methods From The Academy Could Prove To Be Lesnar's Kryptonite

Lesnar brought in Randy Couture to help him out with his preparations for Shane Carwin.

Cain doesn't need to worry too much with that, though maybe he too could benefit from a session or two with Randy.

Still, the American Kickboxing Academy has folks left and right that help him out in training, and it's not just Josh Koscheck, Mike Swick, and Jon FItch either.

It's guys like Cung Le, Josh Thomson, Trevor Prangley, and Bobby Southworth that have helped upped Cain's game as a fighter.

Maybe Lesnar is the one with less to worry about here, but you never know what tricks an AKA guys will whip out come fight night, so Lesnar had better be prepared.

If he doesn't, he'll be on the receiving end of something deadly from Cain Velasquez — and the smart money is that when it happens, Lesnar won't see it coming.


5. He's Stronger Than Even Lesnar Would Think

Brock Lesnar, to his credit, has a more impressive collegiate career than does Cain.

He's been an NCAA Champion once before, wheras Cain has only been an All-American.

Does that mean that Cain's wrestling is worse than Brock's?

Not necessarily.

Cain doesn't have the awards, but he does have something that Brock may have to contend with, even in the later round if the fight goes to the later rounds, and that something is underscored strength. 

Cain showed this same strength when he was coming off the Kongo win and facing off against Ben Rothwell.

Rothwell's not a lighter-heayweight by any means, yet Cain Velasquez was able to take Rothwell down and control him on the ground before finishing him off in round two.

This is where Cain's wrestling is actually underscored compared to Brock's, because Brock looks like the type that can take his opponents down and he's taken down every one of them.

Cain's done the latter, but to me he doesn't look like he would be a heavyweight at all.

That's what amazes me about Cain, and that's why he could have an edge in the takedown department despite having less accomplishments under his belt than Brock.

He doesn't look like he can take Brock down, and he maynot be able to do so with ease.

Heck, getting Rothwell down with a single-leg was a bit tough — Cain had to get Ben into a position where he was unable to keep his balance.

Just because he looks like he can't do it with ease doesn't mean it won't happen at all.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

its a bad article. I just skimmed through it and found this..

"
Rothwell's not a lighter-heayweight by any means, yet Cain Velasquez was able to take Rothwell down and control him on the ground before finishing him off in round two"

Cain was able to take him down because he is SLOW, I can take a 300 pound man down if I can out maneuver him. And that wasnt even a good finish, Rothwell was getting up from those sissy feather punches.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Spec0688 said:


> its a bad article. I just skimmed through it and found this..
> 
> "
> Rothwell's not a lighter-heayweight by any means, yet Cain Velasquez was able to take Rothwell down and control him on the ground before finishing him off in round two"
> ...


you couldn't even throw muguel torres around


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

guy incognito said:


> your bitch ass couldn't even throw muguel torres around


If I see personal insults from you again I'm sending you on vacation. You can debate and not be hostile my dude.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

yeah my bad it's 3:30 in the morning so I'm not in too good a mood.


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## MILFHunter947 (Jan 30, 2010)

god damn...this article is so fuckin long, no one is gonna read this, this and the "ken shamrock thinks gsp is on steroids" article, theyre too long and boring


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Going to be awesome. The more I think about this fight the more excited I get about it. If Cain can pull off the win I will be extremely excited.


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## War (Feb 28, 2007)

MILFHunter947 said:


> god damn...this article is so fuckin long, no one is gonna read this, this and the "ken shamrock thinks gsp is on steroids" article, theyre too long and boring


Dude people have most likely read every word. I know I did. I just don't have anything positive to say about the article itself. That doesn't mean people won't read it, just means that they won't comment.

Besides, some news on a forum is better to discuss than no news on a forum, eh?


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## amoosenamedhank (Sep 2, 2009)

Ok I didn't read this whole article but I really laughed at the guys interpretation of the Kongo fight. He ate some hard strikes and basically took Kongo down while he had no clue which way is up. Sounds a lot like what brock was accused of doing... Doesn't seem too impressive.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Nice find. Some parts I disagree with, others I'm in complete agreement with. I don't necessarily see it the way he does, especially in the takedown department. But I still come up with the same conclusion, Cain via KO or TKO.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Cain is Frank Mir but with good wrestling instead of sick bjj. I give Cain a punchers chance against Lesnar, other than that he'll get manhandled.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

> Lesnar literally had to take Carwin down in order to set up that arm triangle.


Uhhh, duh? How else would he set it up? Lol.


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## boatoar (May 14, 2010)

+ Rep brother. Although part of me hates you for getting me so psyched for a fight that won't be for what? 4-6 months?

Ahhh, that looks good. I wish every matchup had a video like this, haha. Sometimes I love the hype leading up to a fight more than the fight itself! And I don't just mean for letdown fights, but just the excitement of waiting for a big event.

Initially, I didn't give Cain much chance to beat Brock if Carwin couldn't do it. But who knows, they guy trains like an absolute berserker and believes with all his might that he'll win. Should be a slobberknocker!


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

That was a pretty sweet video. I am really excited for this fight. This is going to be a big test for both fighters!


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Nice find. It's funny how no one gave Cain a shot, then an interview and highlight video come out and now people are saying "It's going to be closer than I thought."

I don't want to point any fingers.... but if your mind gets changed by an interview and highlight video as opposed to past fights...:confused05:


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

wukkadb said:


> Uhhh, duh? How else would he set it up? Lol.


That line confused me too. I tried it with different inflections in my head, but it makes no difference, my brain still pops when I try and understand the meaning!


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

wukkadb said:


> Uhhh, duh? How else would he set it up? Lol.


Flying arm triangle of course! :thumb02:


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

shows how credible of a writer whoever this is. This guy is a joke and his opinion doesnt count for anything if he cant even properly talk MMA. LITERALLY how to take someone down to setup a sub.. LOL!

I am going to take a guess and say that this isnt some professional writer, but a blogger.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...Cool trailer. I think the fight will be very interesting. Cain's stand-up can win it for him. His cardio is in check and he'll need everything in his arsenal to beat Brock. Legkicks tied in with fast punch combinations, (like he did against Nogueria). Constant lateral movement staying away from Lesnar's shot. Odd striking angles. The only way Cain can win this is by breaking Lesnar down. If CV has no success putting it all together, Brock's power, chin, and heart will get him past Velasquez...


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## boatoar (May 14, 2010)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Nice find. It's funny how no one gave Cain a shot, then an interview and highlight video come out and now people are saying "It's going to be closer than I thought."
> 
> I don't want to point any fingers.... but if your mind gets changed by an interview and highlight video as opposed to past fights...:confused05:



Haha, you're so right. I'm very guilty of this. Writing people off, then seeing a hype video and changing my position if at least marginally. That's of course the purpose of the hype video, but I know better  This is not to say that I shouldn't have given Cain more respect at the beginning, I just wrote him off for being too small. It's essentially worse than a catchweight fight between Silva fighting at 185 while GSP is at 170. I'm of course assuming that Brock comes in at 265 (closer to 285 on fight night) and Cain weighs in around 245-250.

Obviously, I should never compare Brock to Anderson Silva, but my point is merely the size disparity. Those type of super fights are always shoved aside due to a large weight difference, but that's why the heavyweight division is such an interesting beast. 

They can throw guys like Kimbo (225lb) against a 253lb Mitrione and consider it normal. Well let's have BJ fight Anderson then! He's fought Machida before! I realize Kimbo isn't much more than an over-hyped brawler, but that nonsense doesn't happen in any other division. 
Perhaps weight differences are given too much 'weight'. What do you guys think?

I swear, I swear I won't change my opinion when the countdown to Silva vs. Chael comes out though! Silva will dominate that fight through and through.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Not bad at all. That is one intriguing matchup. My only question is if Cain can stop the takedowns or better yet get out. 

It's gonna be fun seeing Cain batter him though for a bit.

Either way JDS should claim the crown from either or...


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

HitOrGetHit said:


> Flying arm triangle of course! :thumb02:


Lol what?

Maybe clinch up. Go for a duck under but don't go all the way around and lock up the arm triangle standing? Even IF you could lock it up standing, you would still have to take him down to be effective...

well... thats what people said about the gullitine before Hughes hit it standing on Trigg.

Maybe this writer is onto something... LOL

Edit: The writer of the article is a 19 year old from Texas. Not that 19 year olds can't write well thought out articles, but this kid was obviously on the underside of a very low IQ high school class...


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## diablo5597 (Nov 12, 2008)

MILFHunter947 said:


> god damn...this article is so fuckin long, no one is gonna read this, this and the "ken shamrock thinks gsp is on steroids" article, theyre too long and boring


This may help you get through it.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

No_Mercy said:


> Not bad at all. That is one intriguing matchup. My only question is if Cain can stop the takedowns or better yet get out.
> 
> It's gonna be fun seeing Cain batter him though for a bit.
> 
> Either way JDS should claim the crown from either or...


I think Cain gained some confidence in watching Lesnar v. Carwin, and if he can keep it on the feet he could put some punches together and get Lesnar in defense mode and could win...but if it goes to the ground, Lesnars going to make Cain look small and will manhandle him, imo.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Why do people want to point to the Kongo fight to point out any strength of Cain's? He took Kongo down at will and was unable to do anything with them, he used pillow hands to do no damage what so ever. Kongo on the other hand rocked Cain damn near every time he touched him and if Kongo could even spell takedown defense there was no way those lame half dazed TD's would have worked and he would have easily finished Cain. The Kongo fight exposed the biggest weakness's in Cain's game if your a Velasquez fight then you should want to avoid talking about that disgrace.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

Very nice video. But it does not change my opinion, in that Brock Lesnar is going to derail the Velsaquez hype-train. Lesnar WILL win this fight.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

This is the era of Lesnar like it is the era of GSP/Anderson. 

Lesnar is not as skilled as the two I mentioned above but, He is just a freakish athlete and learns tremendously fast. Every time we see Lesnar inside the cage, We see him evolve by leaps and bounds.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Spec0688 said:


> *This is the era of Lesnar like it is the era of GSP/Anderson.*
> 
> Lesnar is not as skilled as the two I mentioned above but, He is just a freakish athlete and learns tremendously fast. Every time we see Lesnar inside the cage, We see him evolve by leaps and bounds.


Complete BS IMO.

Lesnar is not well rounded enough to have his own era. He's similar to Matt Hughes (who had a great era), except the fact that many of Lesnar's opponents (Carwin and Cain) have just as good... if not better wrestling than him. Not to mention Hughes had great subs. Lesnar's only shown one very basic sub.

Lesnar is a great ground fighter. That is all. That would have been all you needed 5 or 10 years ago. Given his current level of competition, I don't see Lesnar having anything close to an era until he learns how to stand and bang.



Toxic said:


> Why do people want to point to the Kongo fight to point out any strength of Cain's? He took Kongo down at will and was unable to do anything with them, he used pillow hands to do no damage what so ever. Kongo on the other hand rocked Cain damn near every time he touched him and if Kongo could even spell takedown defense there was no way those lame half dazed TD's would have worked and he would have easily finished Cain. The Kongo fight exposed the biggest weakness's in Cain's game if your a Velasquez fight then you should want to avoid talking about that disgrace.


I see what you're saying.

BUT

Is it possible Kongo just has a good Chin? How many times has he been knocked out or tko'd before and by who?

If I remember correctly Cain has far more ko's and tko's than decisions. That alone defeats the whole "pillow hand" talk.

Edit:

And while we're pointing out fights exposing weaknesses. 

*ahem* Brock's last fight *ahem*

Sure. Everyone says it merely showed Brock can come back. If you're going to argue that than I'll argue that the Cain Kongo fight showed Cain is relentless and shows no signs of weak cardio. See how this works?


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Complete BS IMO.
> 
> Lesnar is not well rounded enough to have his own era. He's similar to Matt Hughes (who had a great era), except the fact that many of Lesnar's opponents (Carwin and Cain) have just as good... if not better wrestling than him. Not to mention Hughes had great subs. Lesnar's only shown one very basic sub.
> 
> Lesnar is a great ground fighter. That is all. That would have been all you needed 5 or 10 years ago. Given his current level of competition, I don't see Lesnar having anything close to an era until he learns how to stand and bang.


He already has a better resume then Cain with 6 pro fights, while Cain has 12? I dont see Lesnar losing to any of the top contenders the UFC has currently.

Cain? nope
JDS? nope
Big Country? lol 

Out of the compeition in the UFC, JDS will be the toughest test, but other then that... Lesnar will steam roll anyone who comes in his way, That include Carwin if they meet the second time. 

Lesnar doesnt need sick sub skill, or amazing boxing, once he gets on top of you, YOU are DONE. He is probably the only fighter in the UFC that you can bet money on, that IF he gets on top of you, he will finish the fight.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Spec0688 said:


> He already has a better resume then Cain with 6 pro fights, while Cain has 12? I dont see Lesnar losing to any of the top contenders the UFC has currently.
> 
> Cain? nope
> JDS? nope
> ...


Uhg. Just like he was going to "steamroll" Carwin too right? Fact was Carwin lost that fight more than Brock won it.

Cain : Great Shot
JDS: Great Shot
Carwin: Almost gaurunteed win next time they meet.
Big Country: Isn't even a top contender IMO.

You think Carwin won't fix his cardio issue before they fight again? Not to mention when Carwin had his cardio, he easily stuffed Brocks takedowns. There is no way in hell Brock can get his standup to Carwins level before they fight again. Cardio however is an easily fixable issue.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

In all due time the giant will get slayed by "David." Meanwhile we get to sit back and watch him take on all challengers.


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## Servatose (Apr 21, 2008)

Wow, impressive.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Uhg. Just like he was going to "steamroll" Carwin too right? Fact was Carwin lost that fight more than Brock won it.
> 
> Cain : Great Shot
> JDS: Great Shot
> ...


Those werent even real takedown attempts, I love how people try to say that Carwin has this amazing TD defense when he stuffed Lesnar in the first round. Lesnar was back pedaling from Carwins punches and was just trying to grab his legs, those arent real TD attempts. 

And NO ONE said he would steam roll Carwin, Unless they are just complete fanboys. Everyone knew that Carwin would be his toughest test, and not to mention him being away for so long due to a illness.


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

On paper this is how I see it.

Cain Velasquez took Cheick Kongo by decision.
Frank Mir took Cheick Kongo by KO.

Frank Mir has superior stand up to Velasquez.

Velasquez KO'ed Nogueira.
Frank Mir KO'ed Nogueira.

Frank Mir and Velasquez are likely similar in skillset, or Mir may be a little better.

If Velasquez is on Mir's level, he may not do much better than Mir. 

Its difficult to say considering how un-tested Velasquez is.

Did Velasquez KO a Nogueira well past his prime? Or, is it a result of substantial improvement on his part?


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Trix said:


> On paper this is how I see it.
> 
> Cain Velasquez took Cheick Kongo by decision.
> Frank Mir took Cheick Kongo by KO.
> ...


I'm going to focus on the bold part.

Velsaquez's skillset is NOT like to Mir's simply because they beat the same fighter. I would say Mir's skillset is better than Brocks minus wrestling and ground control (which is what won brock the fight). Velasquez's wrestling and ground control is light years ahead of Mir's, and that is the big difference that will make a huge point in this fight.



Spec0688 said:


> Those werent even real takedown attempts, I love how people try to say that Carwin has this amazing TD defense when he stuffed Lesnar in the first round. Lesnar was back pedaling from Carwins punches and was just trying to grab his legs, those arent real TD attempts.
> 
> And NO ONE said he would steam roll Carwin, Unless they are just complete fanboys. Everyone knew that Carwin would be his toughest test, and not to mention him being away for so long due to a illness.


I don't know where you were pre-carwin fight, but it wasn't here. Just about everyone said Brock would steam roll Carwin.

Oh I'm sorry were those fake takedown attempts? LOL

Brock's TD's in the first round were crisp attempts with good form. Carwin was a decent enough wrestler to stop them. Notice I didn't say better wrestler... just decent enough to stop the td's.

Watch other great wrestlers (gsp, hughes, kos, ect.). Anytime they try a takedown... even when hurt or backpedaling, they are usually successful. Brock in the Carwin fight was touted to have far superior wrestling than Carwin and that was supposed to make the difference.

Cain's wrestling is better than Carwin's and probably better than Brocks. If anyone thinks Brock is going to walk through Cain they need to stop drinking the cool-aid and watch both of these guys pasts fights more.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

I think Mir is a more dangerous fighter. Cain struggled with Kongo standing, and that is undisputable. Had Kongo had some semblance of a TDD, he may well have been able to shrug off a few of the 'dazed' takedowns Cain went for. Obviously this is all speculation, but Mir floored Kongo very quickly. I think Mir has far better standup than Cain, though i think Velasquez may well have improved in that area as shown against Noguiera.

I'd really like to see Mir v Cain. I think Mir would take it, but it would be interesting. 

However, i dont see Brock v Cain going any different from Brock v Mir 2. Purely because i dont think Cain will be able to stop the takedown nor get back to his feet when Brock secures top control. This renders his standup (improved or not, though i am reluctant to make too much of a judgment on it as of yet - It looked poor against Kongo, and good against a potentially over-the-hill Noguiera) completely irrelvant.


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## Johnni G (Dec 2, 2009)

He couldn't even finish Kongo. Fail.


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## Admz (Sep 15, 2009)

Johnni G said:


> He couldn't even finish Kongo. Fail.


Yes I'm sure he hasn't improved his game since then.

That looked fun, I'll try one:

Brock couldn't even finish Herring. Fail.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Admz said:


> Yes I'm sure he hasn't improved his game since then.
> 
> That looked fun, I'll try one:
> 
> Brock couldn't even finish Herring. Fail.


That was basically Brocks what fight? The was Cains 10th fight? 

I would also say that Herring is more of a complete fighter then Kongo is.


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

Spec0688 said:


> I would also say that Herring is more of a complete fighter then Kongo is.


Herring is huge crafty veteran who is VERY hard to finish. He went to decision with Nog twice so far, lasted 10 minutes with Fedor until dr stoppage, decisioned Vitor and Vovchanchyn... 
Herring also has a list of non decision losses (and wins), but basically Im saying that punching Herring into retirement and beating him on your second mma fight is pretty damn impressive, who seriously think that their next fight would be a decision win for Lesnar?


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Talking about Herring...

Does anyone know what he's up to? Haven't heard of him since he had to pull out against Cain and that was a year ago.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Diokhan said:


> Herring is huge crafty veteran who is VERY hard to finish. He went to decision with Nog twice so far, lasted 10 minutes with Fedor until dr stoppage, decisioned Vitor and Vovchanchyn...
> Herring also has a list of non decision losses (and wins), but basically Im saying that punching Herring into retirement and beating him on your second mma fight is pretty damn impressive, who seriously think that their next fight would be a decision win for Lesnar?



I agree that the author of the article is very much underestimatng Herring's abilities/resolve, but he was unquestionably way over the hill when he fought Lesnar. But he had miles of heart to fight almost three full rounds with a broken orbit!

I think that Lesnar is still overhyped. He's far from "the next big thing" or whatever his self-proclaimed nickname is. He's defended his belt twice, which is a great achievement for someone who's had so few fights, but there are still serious contenders, Velasquez, Nelson and Dos Santos among them. Frankly, the guy's no Anderson Silva or GSP. He's shown that he is developing into a more versatile fighter. But he is definitely far from being some kind of shining magical hulk smash!


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## 12KTFO (Jun 25, 2010)

I agree with a very small portion of this article. But for the most part, it's nonsense. 

1. So what Brock has the exact same gameplan for every fight? He's big enough and strong enough that it works. Bottom line, what's the problem with having 1 gameplan if it works? Obviously a dumb view on Brock from the writer. ...And what makes the author think that Cain has any better chance of keeping it standing than anyone else Brock has faced? Don't misunderstand, Cain is a phenomenal fighter with great Wrestling. But what the author is forgetting is that Brock has amazing Wrestling and fight night will have probably a 20 or 30 lb weight advantage. Cain weighs in at what 245. Even a Brock coming off of a long lay off and not cutting weight weighs in at 265. By 121 or whenever they fight, Brock will probably have most of his size back and will have to cut to 265. That means that when Cain comes in at 250 to 260 on fight night, I don't really know how much, if any, weight Cain cuts, Brock will be coming in upwards of 280. Wrestling being even, Brock has the advantage, even if the strength is the same, which I highly doubt, Cain would still have to lug around an extra 20, 30 lbs while grappling with Brock. If Brock's stand up doesn't improve, his reign is over? I agree Brock does need to improve his stand up, but his Wrestling and GnP make up for it. It's not smart but Brock proved that he can eat punches, he took several from Carwin and was still moving around defending himself. And if you watched the Rothwell fight, Cain's GnP isn't devastating. Relentless, yes. Devastating, fight ending, NO. Anybody that thinks that Cain's GnP is on the same planet as Carwin's is delusional. Again, don't misunderstand, Cain is a phenomenal fighter, but the size and strength disadvantage means that he won't be able to finish Brock and he won't be able to keep the fight standing.

2. What this idiot is failing to understand is that the best shots that Brock will be landing will be with Cain under him. Why would Cain want to close the distance and try to take Brock down. This is what Brock wants. Brock wants the fight up close and personal, Wrestling for dominance. So talking about Cain taking Brock's best punches while trying to complete the take down just seems wrong. If Cain wants to Wrestle with Brock, Brock will use his size and strength to lean on him and eventually end up on top on the ground. Cain's best gameplan would be to stick and move. To try and run circles around Brock, which isn't easy since Brock is astonishingly athletic for his size.

3. I agree that Cain has shown to have great cardio in all of his fights. But he hasn't had a single guy Brock's size to grapple with for 25 minutes. The author needs to realize that grappling is far more physically demanding than the stand up. Cain looks to be in such good shape because we have never seen him spending the fight grappling and counter-grappling. Don't misunderstand, Cain is in great shape but I think this writer needs to know that stand up and grappling from dominant positions, which is all we've ever seen from Cain, isn't near as draining as having a bigger, strong, more dominant grappler forcing you to counter-grapple. Let's face it, Cain will probably be focusing on Boxing but, I think that at some point, we will see Brock clinching, leaning and dragging him to the ground.

4. No argument for this Cain having more tricks learned from AKA.

5. Again, who in their right mind can consider Rothwell even close to equivalent the athlete that Brock is? What the writer fails to realize, again, is that if Cain does get inside on a single, like he did against Big Ben, on Brock, he still has 300 lbs of muscle and dominant Wrestler to deal with. 

Overall, this article was 97.35% crap. It's really quite sad how someone so ignorant and delusional can pass for a semi-competent MMA analyst/writer.


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## UKMMAGURU (Nov 15, 2009)

I'm not impressed with the authors performance...


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

12KTFO said:


> I agree with a very small portion of this article. But for the most part, it's nonsense.
> 
> 1. So what Brock has the exact same gameplan for every fight? He's big enough and strong enough that it works. Bottom line, what's the problem with having 1 gameplan if it works? Obviously a dumb view on Brock from the writer. ...And what makes the author think that Cain has any better chance of keeping it standing than anyone else Brock has faced? Don't misunderstand, Cain is a phenomenal fighter with great Wrestling. But what the author is forgetting is that Brock has amazing Wrestling and fight night will have probably a 20 or 30 lb weight advantage. Cain weighs in at what 245. Even a Brock coming off of a long lay off and not cutting weight weighs in at 265. By 121 or whenever they fight, Brock will probably have most of his size back and will have to cut to 265. That means that when Cain comes in at 250 to 260 on fight night, I don't really know how much, if any, weight Cain cuts, Brock will be coming in upwards of 280. Wrestling being even, Brock has the advantage, even if the strength is the same, which I highly doubt, Cain would still have to lug around an extra 20, 30 lbs while grappling with Brock. If Brock's stand up doesn't improve, his reign is over? I agree Brock does need to improve his stand up, but his Wrestling and GnP make up for it. It's not smart but Brock proved that he can eat punches, he took several from Carwin and was still moving around defending himself. And if you watched the Rothwell fight, Cain's GnP isn't devastating. Relentless, yes. Devastating, fight ending, NO. Anybody that thinks that Cain's GnP is on the same planet as Carwin's is delusional. Again, don't misunderstand, Cain is a phenomenal fighter, but the size and strength disadvantage means that he won't be able to finish Brock and he won't be able to keep the fight standing.
> 
> ...


Totally bro, like seriously, nobody out there is even close to being as sweet as Brock man. He'll f*ck up anybody bro, you dont even know!

Neg rep for being a rambling nuthugging prick.


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## suffersystem (Feb 4, 2007)

Squirrelfighter said:


> Totally bro, like seriously, nobody out there is even close to being as sweet as Brock man. He'll f*ck up anybody bro, you dont even know!
> 
> Neg rep for being a rambling nuthugging prick.





Serious? That is all it takes nowadays to get a neg rep? I guess we should all keep our opinions to ourselves then!


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

suffersystem said:


> Serious? That is all it takes nowadays to get a neg rep? I guess we should all keep our opinions to ourselves then!


No facts, no ideas. Just bitching because someone doesn't think Lesnar is invinsible. That is what should be stifled.


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## suffersystem (Feb 4, 2007)

Squirrelfighter said:


> No facts, no ideas. Just bitching because someone doesn't think Lesnar is invinsible. That is what should be stifled.


Fair enough....


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

12KTFO said:


> Suck it tard. I'm not nuthugging at all. You're retarded to think anything I said is false. Pull the cock out of your mouth and step back and look at the 2 fighters and everything I said is absolutely true. You should really think about playing with a loaded gun you moron.





12KTFO said:


> I don't think Brock is INVINCIBLE, learn to spell tard, I'm just not dumb enough to think that Brock isn't a freak athlete with amazing Wrestling. If you could learn how to use rational thought while reading, I'm sure you could see that I wasn't whining about a ******* thing. Everything I said is true, idiot.


Thank you for proving my point. You _are _a prick, just like I said.

Also: Spec, have you read this guy's posts? Go check the Brock is a freakish athlete thread, then decide who's the prick.


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## Whitehorizon (May 27, 2009)

First of all, I am not a nut hugger of Brocks. 

Secondly, I have only seen Cain's fight with Kongo and Nogueira. So I cant speak intelligently on Cain completely, besides knowing Kongo is his only non KO victory. 

I don't want Brock to win this fight, two undefeated victories in a row? That would be horrible for an arrogant person like Brock to have on his mind. I wanted nothing more than Carwin to finish that fight but Brock took it like well, a champ. :confused05:

Either way I am afraid to say I don't see Cain winning this fight. I will be routing against Brock, again, though. His athletic ability and size are what scares me though. He takes guys down with ease, though Carwin fended him off well in the first round, and I dont see Cain stopping that.

Finally, I agree with most of what 12ktfo has to say in his post. Coming from a non-Brock supporter.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Squirrelfighter said:


> Thank you for proving my point. You _are _a prick, just like I said.
> 
> Also: Spec, have you read this guy's posts? Go check the Brock is a freakish athlete thread, then decide who's the prick.


Stop trying to stir things up man, that post didn't warrant a neg rep at all. You're even insulting the guy, so how would you expect him to react?


Cain is way better than Lesnar. I'll be pretty excited come fight time to see if Lesnar can overcome another challenge.


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## MILFHunter947 (Jan 30, 2010)

maybe its just me but i prefer the nickname "the juggernaut" better than the "terminator"


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

SJ said:


> Stop trying to stir things up man, that post didn't warrant a neg rep at all. You're even insulting the guy, so how would you expect him to react?


Really? Isn't the ranting nuthuggery of a troll the exact purpose of a neg rep? And he was full red before I even read that post. I'm not the only one disgusted by it, I'm just the only one who said something.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

*grabs popcorn and beer*

I'll be sitting in the corner watching.


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## MattDAcat26 (Jul 15, 2010)

*Lesnar has decent stand up*

Dont forget that he beat couture on his feet


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Let's keep this debate civil and on topic. This ordeal has already been dealt with by the staff. So back to the Cain/Lesnar topic at hand please. :thumbsup:


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

I mostly disliked the part where he used Rothwell as an example as to why Lesnar may be the one to be taken down. Rothwell and Lesnar aren't even comparable. Velasquez showed that he can take a big opponent down if he works for it, sure. Although let's break down the two opponents at hand.

Rothwell is a fairly big guy, but Lesnar is even bigger and easily the stronger guy.

Lesnar is a lot faster than Rothwell, Rothwell plays the typical role of the big and slow guy.

Lesnar is more athletic, thats one of the reasons why his large size is so impressive. He still manages to be fairly agile and athletic so he isn't sacrificing that much by being as big as he is.

Lesnar is a way better wrestler than Rothwell, that is probably the most important factor there. Velasquez is a way better wrestler than Rothwell as well so it doesn't surprise me that he managed to take a bigger opponent down after working for it.

There you have it, not only does Lesnar seem to be superior than Rothwell almost everywhere, but he is also not a poor wrestler like Rothwell and even has comparable wrestling with Velasquez. Lesnar also has the better credentials in that department than Velasquez as well. Who has better MMA wrestling is still a question mark, although that is not the topic. I'm just saying, Velasquez managing to take down a big and slow fighter with poor wrestling doesn't give someone much of a case that he can take down an even bigger fighter that isn't slow at all and also has wrestling as great if not better than his own. Even using that as solid evidence is almost laughable in my opinion. I'm not saying that Velasquez can't do it, I just wouldn't use that as a reason as to why he could.

EDIT: Important note, Velasquez was taken down by Kongo once when they fought. He did get right back up, but Kongo did manage to take him down. I think we all can agree unanimously that Kongo would never manage to put Lesnar on his back. Kongo doesn't even have very good wrestling and he isn't that big either, he usually weighs under 240. Lesnar hasn't been taken down, and he has faced better wrestlers than Velasquez has faced. Lesnar has dropped to his back, but that is from one of Carwin's famous flurries. I'll sort of let it slide for Velasquez because he jumped right back up after, but I think that is more evidence that if someone is put on their back in this fight, it is more likely to be Velasquez.


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## MILFHunter947 (Jan 30, 2010)

diablo5597 said:


> This may help you get through it.


lol i laughed


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

*Brown Pride, Takedowns, And Bolos: Cain Velasquez A Cultural And MMA Icon*

If you have not had the honor of spending time within or around Latin culture, the Mexican culture in particular, then you may not understand or appreciate the term “brown pride.”

One need not be of Mexican descent to grasp the ideals and belief behind the term. Like any culture, the Mexican community is very diverse and the pride of a people is displayed on so many levels.

Be it through political representation at the highest levels of government, be it through culinary delights found across Mexico, or artistic expression through song or other mediums, the vibrant culture is undeniable and worthy of every ounce of “brown pride” claimed by the people.

One extremely and highly revered catalyst for displaying “brown pride” is found within the culture of combat arts. The Guerrero or warriors of the Mexican culture are many, and they are highly revered both historically and in modern times.

Latin warriors permeate the historic halls of the sweet science like Julio Cesar Chavez, and today the young Guerrero finds a new opportunity in mixed martial arts. One man in particular is leading the way representing the Mexican culture at the highest levels of MMA.

This warrior has the words, “brown pride” tattooed in Olde English across his chest. He carries a Mexican flag over his powerful right hand, and pays great respect to his people’s heritage by representing them as a world class fighter.

Cain Velasquez is the number one contender to the throne guarded ferociously by MMA icon Brock Lesnar. Velasquez covets that which appears to be guarded by an unstoppable raging bull.

With Brock stamping, snorting, and chomping at the bit to protect that which he fought so hard to gain, Velasquez looks to become the matador; stoic and dangerous in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds.

Lesnar recently withstood the hurricane force of Shane Carwin only to rebound and not only show a stone beard, but an improved finishing game as well. It becomes harder and harder to bet against the UFC Heavyweight Champ.

If one were the betting sort, the type of fighter it would take to make them bet against Brock might be a man like Velasquez. A proud Mexican warrior who has the belief in himself to overcome, and the skill in his heart to succeed, time and time again.

Add to that the drive of an entire culture that stands behind him; waves of history projecting him towards his destiny as the face of their people standing tall atop the MMA mountain. Suddenly his inspiration becomes quite understandable.

Belief, pride, talent, and the support of a unified voice can be a very powerful thing. The ingredients alone wont be enough, but they represent the foundation for a lifetime of success.

The desired success may not come to pass immediately either. But what makes a man like Velasquez so dangerous is that he isn't going anywhere.

Even if he is still placing the building blocks today of a historical career yet to be fashioned, his time will come. He may defeat Lesnar, he may not. Either way, his future is very bright, as it may involve a UFC heavyweight strap. But it does not hinge upon it today.

That much has been proven up to this point in his career. Having found enormous success as both a high school and collegiate wrestler, winning has become a way of life.

Now training in striking arts and aspects of MMA like Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu under Dave Camarillo, Velasquez is only furthering that which is all he knows, competition and his ability to defeat men.

He is a relentless competitor, with a warrior's heart, not a drop of quit, and the momentum of eight MMA victories with zero defeats behind him.

Watching Velasquez is like watching Georges St. Pierre earlier in his career.

Point being, every time fight fans saw GSP in the early years of his reign, he seemed to get better. Some fighters hit a ceiling with their abilities, other fighters change the game by raising the bar.

GSP is the type to raise the bar. Something tells fight fans they have yet to see the best Cain Velasquez they will see and he is already pretty damn good. That is a scary prospect. He will improve, and will do so before your eyes.

An example would be Velasquez’s struggles to finish Cheick Kongo. While he obviously held the deed to Congo’s ass, people questioned his ability to finish at elite levels with world class heavyweights.

His follow up performances against Ben Rothwell and Minatauro Nogueira put any of that nonsense to rest. In little more than a year, he went from struggling to finish a man he was clearly destroying, to becoming the first man to ever KO Big Nog with a clean finish.

Imagine where he will be a year from today.

This man isn’t the biggest heavyweight a fight fan will ever see. He may not be the sexiest name compared to the Lesnars and Fedors of the world. Though, none of that really means squat.

He has “brown pride” and bolos to throw. He can control heavyweight fighters with vicious wrestling, he can work like the energizer bunny without tiring, he can knockout legends cold with his striking.

Add the pride of a people, and pride for his family, as a son, a husband, and a father, and this man has quite a bit to fight for.

Thank goodness you and I are in a position to witness his rise to power. The view is great from here, isn’t it?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...downs-boloscain-velasquez-a-cultural-mma-icon


THE FREIGHT TRAIN OF CAIN IS GAINING SPEED


P.S Please don't try and turn this into some race shit.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

I actually expected to see an article like this soon, and many more. There will be a huge attempt by DW to grab as much of the hispanic audience as he can with Cain. The article itself gives very little information about his fighting strengths, and even less information about his opponent and is merely meant to be a "support this fighter" article. There is nothing wrong with it, but it was not written by an MMA fan.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Posting in here to keep an eye on it. Let's keep it civil and on topic. This tends to be a touchy subject here at times and if it gets out of hand, the thread will be closed. So like I said, lets keep this civil and rational and it will be a good debate. :thumbsup:


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

HitOrGetHit said:


> Posting in here to keep an eye on it. Let's keep it civil and on topic. This tends to be a touchy subject here at times and if it gets out of hand, the thread will be closed. So like I said, lets keep this civil and rational and it will be a good debate. :thumbsup:


I actually don't even see anything to debate about. The article even mentions he could lose and says that the belt "may" be in his future.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

Cain is a gifted HW. Unfortunately, I think this is going to come down to a size/power differential in favor of Brock. 

If Brock can get past Cain, JDS's chances are even worse than we anticipated. 

Shane is Brock's toughest test. If Shane could pace himself over the course of say, 3 rounds, he could find an opening for a finish. 

Shane was definitely over-excited and anxious, reminiscent of Brock's first fight in the UFC, but the talent and the tools are there to pull out a victory.

Aside from the cardio issues, a lot of Brock's opponents become psychologically fixated on him; he gets into fighter's heads like no one else I've ever seen. Hopefully Shane can let this rivalry remain a technically based issue, not a personal one of good guy vs. bad guy. This is reality, not a comic book story.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

Things do seem to be working out prerfectly from a marketing view point for the UFC.

I know a lot of people on these forums consider MMA not to be a sport where the nationality of a fighter matters and i agree with that but it really does drive up interest and PPV buys in those countries.

Right now the UFC have Cain who is a huge draw for the hispanic audience, Stun gun, Korean Zombie and Akiyama who are huge draws for the Asian market, and the UK market pretty much tapped. All they need now is a couple more Europeans to go alongside Kongo and Kampmann to really conquer that market and the UFC will have ridiculous worldwide marketing potential!


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

*If one were the betting sort, the type of fighter it would take to make them bet against Brock might be a man like Velasquez. A proud Mexican warrior who has the belief in himself to overcome, and the skill in his heart to succeed, time and time again.*


hahahaha

who wrote this garbage


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## Omoplata (Aug 30, 2007)

*heh*

What would you guys have thought if Brock Lesnar had tattooed on his chest "White Pride" ? 

Just curious


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

I like how the OP sa don't turn this into a race article when that is what this entire article is. It is talking about how Maxican culture has permeated the halls of combat sports. It brings "Brown Pride" up like 5 times. I have said it before, what would happen if Lesnar changed his dildo tattoo to white pride? there would be a shit storm. I am going to get neg repped for this but it is true. That tattoo is racist and everyone just thinks he is being "cultural" and "proud of his heritage" I can not express my pride like that without being called a racist... how is it not racist for him to be able to do that?

It goes into a small amount about him being the next GSP. Why doesn't it talk about Canadians supporting GSP? 

It hardly talks about his MMA fights and his record. It constantly goes back to his culture backing him and him having something to represent in his race.

I will continue to think that Cain as well as his tattoo is racist and hold that against him as a person, but as a fighter I think that he is great and has the tools to beat Lesnar as long as he can stuff the TDs. I think that Lesnar has shown that he does not like to be hit and cowers rather quickly. If Cain can keep it standing and rock Lesnar like Carwin did then he will win because he has the cardio to finish the fight. If he can not stop most of the TDs then I think Cain will lose pretty quickly.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> If you have not had the honor of spending time within or around Latin culture, the Mexican culture in particular, then you may not understand or appreciate the term “brown pride.”
> 
> One need not be of Mexican descent to grasp the ideals and belief behind the term. Like any culture, the Mexican community is very diverse and the pride of a people is displayed on so many levels.
> 
> ...


I'm personally ok with anyone being proud of their culture and heritage -it's normal and natural - as long as they respect other people's as well...Brown Pride, Black Pride, White Pride - all good to me.


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## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

*IMO* pride for anything that you have no control over is just plain damn silly. Skin color especially. 

Thats my opinion and it wont change. :thumbsup:


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

JimmyJames said:


> *IMO* pride for anything that you have no control over is just plain damn silly. Skin color especially.
> 
> Thats my opinion and it wont change. :thumbsup:


Well put.


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## Pound&Mound (Dec 10, 2007)

Say that to that one white guy, Michael Jackson.


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Omg, will people start calling Brock Lesnar the "Mexicutioner" now? God, noo.


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## EVERLOST (May 28, 2007)

I cant wait for the Brown pride crap to be derailed. Im Irish/ German/ Cherokee.....but I was born in america. Im an American. No Irish american or German American or native american


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

Hmmmm, wonder what people would think if a white guy had a brown pride tattoo?


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## sicc (Mar 4, 2007)

I can't wait until the white gorilla pounds his brown pride into the ground.


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## ESPADA9 (Oct 13, 2006)

What is so ironic is that Cain isn’t really that “brown” and from what I hear had to learn Spanish as he was born here in the United States and spoke English growing up.

A somewhat unique American cultural phenomenon is how second generation or more American citizens feel compelled to search out our “heritage” for an identity because our own national identity has been deluded with “multiculturalism.”

Cain is IMHO one of the most skilled heavyweights in ANY organization, I only hope the focus is on his fighting skills and not the divisive tattoo or the race based marketing campaign. I thought all American citizens were AMERICANS and our loyalty was to THIS country and THESE people and not some hyphenated version of American or a corrupt thieving foreign government?

Dividing ourselves by race, religion, gender, income, education etc plays into the hands of those who seek to exploit.


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## Buster Rough (Mar 4, 2008)

Omoplata said:


> What would you guys have thought if Brock Lesnar had tattooed on his chest "White Pride" ?
> 
> Just curious


Good question. I was thinking the same thing.


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## Couchwarrior (Jul 13, 2007)

I'm not a big fan of racist tattoos, but I like everything else I've seen/heard about Cain; the way he fights, his training discipline and personality (or persona?), so I tend to ignore the tattoo. 

I'd still prefer though if the UFC would tone down the racial aspect, but I guess it sells tickets, so they'll probably keep doing it, at least as long as they don't start getting bad publicity for it in the media.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

This thread is a beacon of dead horse beating. Racist. Not racist. Racist. Not racist. Up. Down. God. Atheism. Life. Death. Art. McCartney, Lennon..... ZZZzzzzzzzz.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

i honestly don't know what is wrong about him being proud of his cultural heritage, which is what it is mainly about. it has more to do with culture than race. just because he is born in america it doesn't mean he should ignore his own culture that is plain wrong. he is not some ******* marcus davis ****, his great, great grandfather isn't a mexican. his dad is a full blown mexican and his mother is a mexican-american. he's proud of who he is and what his family had to do to get where they are.

If YOUR A LEGIT ETHNIC AND BORN IN AMERICA OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO LEARN AND BE PROUD OF YOUR CULTURE AND IT'S A DISGRACE IF YOU IGNORE IT AND TAKE UP SOMEONE ELSES AND A PIECE OF SHIT IF YOU BELIEVE THAT SHOULD HAPPEN.

and seriously the guy is humble and respectful but because of a tatoo he is a lowlife. tattoos don't mean shit. look, does floyd matweather use a tatto to exclaim his racism....NO he has his mouth for that. does cain go around saying he only cheers for the mexican fighters like mayweather and MO only cheer for the black fighters or how the Brazilians do it, hell ACTAFOOL just said that the brazilian commentators start saying the fight is boring if the brazilian is losing. which is just nationalism albeit a bit extreme but what about the canadians at UFC 115 booing anyone who wasn't a canadian or the dreaded USA!!! USA!!!! USA!!!! everytime someone from the US is fighting.

Cain is proud of his culture and family, nothing more. he doesn't go around shoving it in everyones face.

culture>>>>nationalism


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

he could have said south american or mexican pride, skin pride is only for people in gangs or militant people.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Omoplata said:


> What would you guys have thought if Brock Lesnar had tattooed on his chest "White Pride" ?
> 
> Just curious


Well without trying to stir a racial horent's nest, I personally think the problem lies in the culture/political correctness that stigmatizes pride in one's roots, including white. And it especially shouldn't be fine for some races/cultures and not others. But generally I think national/cultural pride is more logical that something generic like a skin color ... it's not like Cain's even that brown, the dude looks like he has far more Spanish than native blood in him.

I would be fine with Lesnar or anyone sporting a white Pride tattoo as long as he didn't make belittling or racist statements towards OTHER races. The same way I'm fine with Velasquez' Brown pride thing as long as he doesn't talk about the white man keeping him down or Brock being this ******* country hick or some such. So far he's been the most respectful HW in the UFC, so I have no problems with his bodily decorations.

But yeah, Lesnar via 3rd rd TKO.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> he could have said south american or mexican pride, skin pride is only for people in gangs or militant people.


black power, brown pride all stem from those guys in the white hoods proclaiming ***********. it's the way it is and the way it will always be.

terms get coined and once people catch onto them regardless of what context they use them for, they stick.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

Meh, he has a brown pride tattoo, whatever. Jeff Monson's tattoo's are more fun to talk about. It is funny, I have yet to hear Cain talk about his heritage other than to say he is a proud mexican-american. But go listen to Diego Sanchez talk some time, with his invincible mexican chin, mexican heart, mexican spirituality that allows him to get closer to God.

I am not saying any of these guys are racist, and to be honest I really don't care. Just like actors I care about watching them perform their art, not to hear their half retarded opinions on anything other than what I pay to see.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

cdtcpl said:


> . But go listen to Diego Sanchez talk some time, with his invincible mexican chin, mexican heart, mexican spirituality that allows him to get closer to God.


Lol what?


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Where the hell is Alizio when you need him? Anyways, this subject is stupid and is only good for stirring people up. I'm sure that's what the OP had in mind when he posted it though so it served it's purpose. Be proud of whatever you want but don't be surprised when someone takes offense to it.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

The505Butcher said:


> I like how the OP sa don't turn this into a race article when that is what this entire article is. It is talking about how Maxican culture has permeated the halls of combat sports. It brings "Brown Pride" up like 5 times. I have said it before, what would happen if Lesnar changed his dildo tattoo to white pride? there would be a shit storm. I am going to get neg repped for this but it is true. That tattoo is racist and everyone just thinks he is being "cultural" and "proud of his heritage" I can not express my pride like that without being called a racist... how is it not racist for him to be able to do that?
> 
> It goes into a small amount about him being the next GSP. Why doesn't it talk about Canadians supporting GSP?
> 
> ...


I agree. If Cain was so pround of his culture, why is the tatoo in English rather than Spanish?


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

guy incognito said:


> Lol what?


Go find some of his interviews prior to fighting Kos and Fitch, back when he trained with De La Hoya (only cardio training, what a waste). For a short bit Diego was very much into his heritage and kept mentioning it in random answers to normal questions.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

cdtcpl said:


> Go find some of his interviews prior to fighting Kos and Fitch, back when he trained with De La Hoya (only cardio training, what a waste). For a short bit Diego was very much into his heritage and kept mentioning it in random answers to normal questions.


oh okay, that "mexican spirituality that allows him to get closer to God" had me chuckling because it sounds exactly like something he would say. but that heart and chin stuff is kinda true just watch some of them box, they ******* go for it.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

guy incognito said:


> oh okay, that "mexican spirituality that allows him to get closer to God" had me chuckling because it sounds exactly like something he would say. but that heart and chin stuff is kinda true just watch some of them box, they ******* go for it.


Oh no doubt, and in fact they are some of the better fights to watch anymore, if any. I only brought it up because I couldn't help but laugh that Diego had said worse and people are talking about Cain's tattoo.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

RustyRenegade said:


> Where the hell is Alizio when you need him? Anyways, this subject is stupid and is only good for stirring people up. I'm sure that's what the OP had in mind when he posted it though so it served it's purpose. Be proud of whatever you want but don't be surprised when someone takes offense to it.


He was banned over a month ago


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

cdtcpl said:


> Oh no doubt, and in fact they are some of the better fights to watch anymore, if any. I only brought it up because I couldn't help but laugh that Diego had said worse and people are talking about Cain's tattoo.


yeah good point.


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## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

[email protected] people whining and playing the race card


Brown Pride is not neo-colonialism or continent theft.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

Honestly I am some what offended by brown pride and him flying the Mexican flag instead of the American flag. 

First off about brown pride and black pride. I think it's stupid and hypocritical because they claim they hate racism but yet they themselves are racist. Also they claim to want equality unity and color blind society but with black and brown pride the set themselves apart from everyone and draw attention to their color. 

Next about the flag. My heritage is from ierland but you won't see me flying an irish flag. I am american and I support America. I would feel the same way if I lived in germany and saw someone flying an American flag. When you live here you are an American not a Mexican not an African not and Englishman or Irishman but American and that's the county you should support. Sure I have a rich irish heritage but I remember I am american first and Irish second.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

cdtcpl said:


> Oh no doubt, and in fact they are some of the better fights to watch anymore, if any. I only brought it up because I couldn't help but laugh that Diego had said worse and people are talking about Cain's tattoo.


Yeah man I live where Diego grew up and has moved back and there are a lot of racist Mexicans around here. Don't get me wrong a lot of them are really good people and I am friends with a lot of mexicans, but I can not tell you how many times I have gotten or seen fights because they think they are better than another race. Diego is one of those really spiritual mexicans and are cool people if you know them through family or friends, but they dislike you if you just pass by them on the street.

I talk about Cain's tattoo because it is racist. Just like if I heard Rampage saying he is better than anyone because he is black or Chael saying he is better because he is white or the same for Lesnar or any white person. The difference is that is always going to be on Cain. Diego is not always he saying he is better or something about brown pride, where Cain can not take that Tattoo off.


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## ESPADA9 (Oct 13, 2006)

guy incognito said:


> i honestly don't know what is wrong about him being proud of his cultural heritage, which is what it is mainly about. it has more to do with culture than race. just because he is born in america it doesn't mean he should ignore his own culture that is plain wrong. he is not some ******* marcus davis ****, his great, great grandfather isn't a mexican. his dad is a full blown mexican and his mother is a mexican-american. he's proud of who he is and what his family had to do to get where they are.
> 
> If YOUR A LEGIT ETHNIC AND BORN IN AMERICA OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO LEARN AND BE PROUD OF YOUR CULTURE AND IT'S A DISGRACE IF YOU IGNORE IT AND TAKE UP SOMEONE ELSES AND A PIECE OF SHIT IF YOU BELIEVE THAT SHOULD HAPPEN.
> 
> ...


1)	What is a “legit” ethnic?????
2)	What is “full blown Mexican” (Mexico is a byproduct culture and people).

Multiculturalism = FAIL!

E Pluribus Unum, look it up.

The idea that everyone is entitled to separate loyalties and cultures (often polar opposites) is preposterous we are the UNITED states of America not the divided segregated hyphenated opposing states. You can’t have a strong nation or a united people if everyone is loyal to FOREIGN country or culture.

My fathers family immigrated from Spain in the mid 1800s and while I’ve been to Spain several times, know my families history, cast, etc (including several tattoos that denote Spanish regional and religious history) my ONLY loyalty is to the USA (and hopefully its people regardless of gender, income, religion, race, education, etc).

Celebrate your heritage fine but multiculturalism? No thinks.

No nation in history has survived a wide spread balkanization of its people.


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## Couchwarrior (Jul 13, 2007)

Sekou said:


> [email protected] people whining and playing the race card
> 
> 
> Brown Pride is not neo-colonialism or continent theft.


Nice rhetoric attempt, but I don't think anyone in this thread claimed anything more than that brown pride is _racist_.

It baffles me how anyone can claim that the term brown pride (or white or black) is not racist. "Brown" refers to a race. "Pride" means that you think you are better or more important than others in some way. It doesn't get much more obvious than that.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

The only thing I don't like about Cain is that tattoo. When I first watched him I would hope that he was going to lose just because of it. He's grown significantly on me because of the fighter he is and his humble personality. I've learned to look past the tattoo.

Fly the Mexican flag all you want, show your roots, be proud. But be fair. The way I see it, you should only do something if you wouldn't mind someone of opposite race / country / ect doing it too. I know it's been beaten to death... but it's taken as White Pride is racist, and brown pride is prideful. If you have a brown pride tattoo you're just celebrating your roots. If you have a white pride tatoo you're a nazi.

I don't care what race you are, where you came from, and what you've done. If you live in America understand that because you are in America you have the freedom to dis-respect America it by flying other flags and claiming other countries first. Most people never even stop to think about that.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Is there actually a point to all this? It's all been said before. Those who are offended are still offended. Those who think the Tattoo is OK, still think so. No opinions are ever going to be changed on this particular topic. So,I ask again, Why bother expressing views on a topic that I'm sure every single one of you has already made their feelings known about.

This is a discussion forum. This isn't a discussion. Just a queue of people waiting their turn to stand on the soap box and say their piece.

I for one would be very happy if threads that drift into the race debate be closed instantly.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

I did some cleaning up and merged most of the Cain Velasquez/Brock Lesnar threads. If you have any comments or news about them fighting, please address it in this thread.


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## hatedcellphones (Dec 7, 2009)

Unless Brock has drastically improved his standup, I see the first round going much like his first round with Shane Carwin. Only Cain doesn't gas out as easily. I'm not saying Cain has better punching power than Carwin, but from what I've seen he still easily has better standup than Lesnar. Basically if he sticks to the plan most Carwin supporters came up with (stuff the takedowns and punish him on his feet) he should be able to win this. And from what I've been reading Cain has a good enough ground game that he shouldn't get subbed. 

We'll see what happens come fight night. Most of this is probably just me wanting to see Brock get smashed because he's a douche.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Nick_V03 said:


> EDIT: Important note, Velasquez was taken down by Kongo once when they fought. He did get right back up, but Kongo did manage to take him down.


he never got put on his back and he reversed it immediately. the brock takedown on carwin was more of a takedown.

And cain can't finish kongo a 240Ibs man, by strikes even though the only person to stop him by strikes was by a young yvel when he was a maniac and that=kongo sucks and everybody should be able to finish him. 

while lyoto machida at 225 can't finish a glorified LW fighting at 190 = bj's chin is made of granite,.


the fact is machida is just as "pillow fisted" as cain. machida's GnP on tito was pathetic as cains GnP on kongo. hell rashad even came out and said he doesn't hit that hard but you never saw him come out and say that about rampage or thiago.

machida will never KO rampage, shogun and most of the other LHW elites. 

as cain will never KO brock, JDS and most of the other HW elites.


(machidas KO's are listed at 5 but cuts and exhaustion don't count)


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

What is the point of this post really....there is something called skills. Hell forrest has no knockout power along with jake sheilds but they still can win. Rashad got KTFO by those pillow fist. Makes no sense that evans would say he dont hit hard but he got KTFO.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Everyone knows this already. Machida got a pass for being uncombative and passive just for two KOs against hilariously chinny fighters.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Very good point...

The only thing I don't agree with.. is that I think Cain will be able to finish some HW elites. 

8-0 with 7 stoppages.. he's developing. And he's sick dangerous. His fluid kickboxing is going to be hard to deal with once he's got it on lock. And it looks like he's almost there.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

marcthegame said:


> What is the point of this post really....there is something called skills. Hell forrest has no knockout power along with jake sheilds but they still can win. Rashad got KTFO by those pillow fist. Makes no sense that evans would say he dont hit hard but he got KTFO.


the double standard which always gets thrown around and you can say the same thing for shields and fitch. as shields has finished 8 out of his last ten while fitch hasn't finished a fight since god knows whenever.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> What is the point of this post really....there is something called skills. Hell forrest has no knockout power along with jake sheilds but they still can win. Rashad got KTFO by those pillow fist. Makes no sense that evans would say he dont hit hard but he got KTFO.


The only reason Rashad was knocked out was because he was telling Machida he did not hit hard and had his mouth wide open. Made it a lot easier to KO someone when their mouth is wide open.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

So what are u guys trying to say machida is garbage?


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

marcthegame said:


> So what are u guys trying to say machida is garbage?


No, I'm not, machida is still the number 2 LHW and will most likely dominate almost everyone else in the Div. but he isn't going to be knocking fools out left right and center....

just pointing out the double standard.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

I don't think either guy has pillow hands.

At HW, pretty much anyone can drop people with 1 punch. They are huge guys with loads of power, so Cain can KO/TKO people, and has shown it. Machida has KO'd two people. Rashad has been rocked 3 times in his entire career: Rampage (Rashad rocked Rampage in the first, and Rampage is known to have a big chin), Thiago, who has many finishes and hits really hard, and Machida. Thiago has been dropped in 1 fight, against Machida. These two don't have bad chins, they really don't.

Point is, they both have KO/TKO power, it's just at such a high level of competition, you're not going to see tons of KO's from these guys.


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## Freiermuth (Nov 19, 2006)

I've seen a lot of people, rightfully so, say Machida has a great stand-up game. I can't really think of anyone claiming Machida is a KO machine though....are you getting that from this forum or elsewhere?

Personally I don't think either have pillow hands, they just use a style that doesn't commit to big punches/kicks very often.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

nah both have pillow hands. but even a little girl can knock you out with 30 punches on the chin.

dont get me wrong, but are great fighters whom i like watching. but both have pillow hands. the level of technique machida uses makes up for it, as does cains physical ability and wrestling.


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## robby767 (Dec 24, 2006)

The505Butcher said:


> The only reason Rashad was knocked out was because he was telling Machida he did not hit hard and had his mouth wide open. Made it a lot easier to KO someone when their mouth is wide open.


Wow, are you serious. Have you watched that fight. Rashad had already been badly rocked (twice) and was stumbling around the ring with glazed eyes. He didnt get knocked out for having his mouth open, he got knocked out bc Machida was beating the shit out of him.

Anyone who really believes that either of these two have "pillow hands" should not be allowed to voice there opinion, on any subject, ever. Cain knocked out Nog with a few punches, say what you will about Nog these days but that guy is still tough as nails. Watch Machida's fight against Franklin and come back to this thread and still try to claim he has "pillow hands".


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

The505Butcher said:


> The only reason Rashad was knocked out was because he was telling Machida he did not hit hard and had his mouth wide open. Made it a lot easier to KO someone when their mouth is wide open.


... Really? The only reason? He didn't have his mouth wide open when Machida wobbled the hell out of him prior to that. Pretty sure the reason Rashad got KO'd, was due to him getting punched on the chin about 20 times by someone with extremely good technique and speed.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

No one except complete nuthuggers think Machida has much KO power... his quick Karate counters that lend him speed also give him weak power. Possibly the only other UFC LHWs that have less KO power are Griffin and Bonnar.

He wins most of his fights by being elusive and picking people apart. The Rashad KO was due to a large volume of strikes and the Thiago one due to a full body downward punch on the chin that anyone could KO anyone with... other than that yeah we know he doesn't throw with power, it's his speed that's the problem.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

robby767 said:


> Wow, are you serious. Have you watched that fight. Rashad had already been badly rocked (twice) and was stumbling around the ring with glazed eyes. He didnt get knocked out for having his mouth open, he got knocked out bc Machida was beating the shit out of him.


Rashad was being his normal self up until the KO. He thought he could strike with elite strikers and now knows he can't. Try it. Lightly punch yourself with your mouth open and then try with it shut. It hurts a lot more and makes it cause more damage to the nerves there. He was getting beat by speed not by power. Rashad will get a rematch with Machida some day and show that he has evolved tremendously since then, where Machida has hit his peak IMO.



KryOnicle said:


> ... Really? The only reason? He didn't have his mouth wide open when Machida wobbled the hell out of him prior to that. Pretty sure the reason Rashad got KO'd, was due to him getting punched on the chin about 20 times by someone with extremely good technique and speed.


He was hurt from that I admit. anyone can tell that. But he was fine until he opened his mouth to mock Machida. That is when he was KOed.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

machida pretty much counters like anderson, never really goes in unless it takes to long of a stalemate like against rashad


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Very good point...
> 
> The only thing I don't agree with.. is that I think Cain will be able to finish some HW elites.
> 
> 8-0 with 7 stoppages.. he's developing. And he's sick dangerous. His fluid kickboxing is going to be hard to deal with once he's got it on lock. And it looks like he's almost there.


Basically... This. All of it.

Machida is awesome but lacks the potential that Cain has. Lyoto does his thing. Its engrained in him. I really cant imagine him improving his striking any great deal before he retires. Improvements in other areas? For sure... big improvements... but not his striking. Cain on the other hand is developing onto a nasty beast in all areas but his wrestling, which is already nasty. So, if we are talking specifically KO power... Cain defiantly has a watch-this-space vibe about him.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Oh another thing about Cain being called "Pillow Hands" despite his 7/8 (T)KO wins. That is a deceptive figure. Because with he exception of Nog, all of those were positional stoppages. As in he was raining down punches with superior top control and wrestling, but it wasn't like he rocked guys with his punches. 

If anything those TKOs show his lack of KO power more than KO power, because after all those punches the ref had to stop the fight, not because the guys were anywhere close to out cold. This is in sharp contrast to HWs like Carwin, JDS, Brock and Gonzaga, who leave their opponents senseless on the mat or flying backward with broken bones. 

I'm not saying Cain has pillow hands, but he certainly isn't anywhere close to the heavy hitters in his division in terms of power, and his TKO wins don't mean anything in that regard.


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