# ***OFFICIAL*** - Jamie Varner vs. Donald Cerrone DISCUSSION THREAD (pre/post)



## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

Conduct all your discussion pre & post-fight on this fight, as *Jamie "C-4" Varner* defends his Lightweight Title against *Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone* in *HERE*. *ALL* other threads concerning anything during this fight, or its outcome *WILL BE MERGED INTO THIS ONE*

Thanks guys

*MLS*


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I'm picking Jamie but after seeing Cowboy working with GSP idk if he will win.


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## Meshuggeth (May 26, 2008)

Cerrone will win this. I'm becoming a big fan.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I really like both of these guys. Either one of them could be top 10 fighters if they get the right match ups.

God I love the LW division.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

Jamie Varner will win because he's on my fantasy team.


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## Vikingpride (Jan 20, 2008)

I'm really not pulling for either fighter to win. I just really want to see a good fight. Which this fight has all the makings of. 

Damn i really love the WEC. They almost never have a bad card (I can't recall one) and they show it for free. 

WAR WEC :thumb02:


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Vikingpride said:


> I'm really not pulling for either fighter to win. I just really want to see a good fight. Which this fight has all the makings of.
> 
> Damn i really love the WEC. They almost never have a bad card (I can't recall one) and they show it for free.
> 
> WAR WEC :thumb02:


You know in all honesty this is the most dissapointing WEC card Ive ever seen, its not horrible but its not as good as the WEC cards ussually are.


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

cowboy baby...woot


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

This WEC card just doesn't have the feel of most of them. IDK hopefully this fight picks it up.

I'm real pumped for this fight.


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## Wise (Oct 8, 2006)

This might be the gayest combo of entrance music Ive ever seen.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

i can't stand varner....hopefully cerrone batters him w/ kicks


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

i love the fan shouting "kick his ass"


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Man this is such an evenly matched fight it's insane.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Nice to see a round end, usually the WEC guys arent taking eachother out so quick.


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## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

That lump on Cerrone's head looks nasty.

But the guy's a stud!


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Man either of these guys could do so well in the UFC.

Not champion but both would IMO be way up there.

First round 10-9 to Varner.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

Good fight. Varner is having trouble with Cerrone's length, oddly enough standing and on the ground


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

great fight so far...i hope cowboy can keep using them legs and knees


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Honestly Varner seems to really hate getting hit he's got all the skills but he gets hit and then spends a lot of time backing up not a great thing for a fighter.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Second tound 10-9 Cowboy and wow that start to roudn 3 was retarted.


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

haha what the heck was that line thing on the ground lol


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Man I love this fight Varner rocks him goes to the peruvian necktie and Cerrone get out of it.


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## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

They have this person screaming in the background (sounds like they're in the audience). Saying "Kick his ass!" and other stuff that I can't really make out.

It sounds like Matt Serra's mini-me.

EDIT: Man, Cerrone is really getting busted up.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

They are slowing down but so much for me questioning Varner's heart he's fought back.

Round 3 I got 10-9 for Varner.


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

i kno its someone for jamie all ive been hearing in the background is "kick his ass jamie, kick his ass" lol


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## aellis1 (Apr 8, 2007)

This fight is ridiculously awesome. Man that triangle at the end of the second was really tight. Cerrone's eye looks totally shut. Varner seems to be slowing down, I think those take downs are taking it out of him, Cerrone look a little more fresh to me. I got it 29-28 Varner thus far.


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

varner is def winning point for these takedowns


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

God I'm loving this. Cerrone controlled round 4 IMO

Forth round 10-9 Cerrone

Winner of last round wins this fight IMO.


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## aellis1 (Apr 8, 2007)

umm im pretty sure i might be able to take cerrone down...and thats very very sad.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> God I'm loving this. Cerrone controlled round 4 IMO
> 
> Forth round 10-9 Cerrone
> 
> Winner of last round wins this fight IMO.


yeh but this is N.A....and Varner wins that round for at least 2 judges


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## JT42 (Dec 31, 2006)

Great fight so far. Varner is slowing down quite a bit though. Hopefully he can hold on for this fifth round!


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

this is gonna be a close one...i see varner slighting leading thus far so cowboy really needs to pull something out here


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Let me pretend Aaron let me pretend.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

**** No Don't Have That Happen.


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## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

I hate the no knees / kicks to the head of a downed opponent rules! :confused05:


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## Wise (Oct 8, 2006)

Wow, what a dumb shit knee.


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

WHAT.....it barely grazed him


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## JT42 (Dec 31, 2006)

What?! Come on Varner, that is WEAK. He could have recovered from that


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## aellis1 (Apr 8, 2007)

weakest shit ever...it looked like it barely grazed him


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

This is heart breaking I loved this fight. I need a rematch badly.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Were Varner's knees technically on the ground when that knee hit?

His shins and legs were, but what is the exact ruling on that?


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

JT42 said:


> What?! Come on Varner, that is WEAK. He could have recovered from that


i agree....WEAK!!! lol


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## aellis1 (Apr 8, 2007)

no way they're giving a decision to cerrone, especially since its a title fight.


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## JT42 (Dec 31, 2006)

At least there will be a decision but still I am really disappointed in Varner. Looks like he was just exhausted and saw a way out imo...and I am a huge Varner fan :thumbsdown:


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

I hate to sound like a keyboard warrior, but I think Varner's playing it up. The dry-heaving and the "OWWW" repeated 10 times. What a shame, it was a great fight.


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## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

What the hell? How did that hurt Varner so bad. 

Matt Lindland was less dramatic after being murdered by Vitor.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Damn this sucks Such a great fight with such a gay end.

Guys to be fair a knee even glancing can really hurt especially when he's so exhusted.

Varner vs Cerrone 2 I need it soon.


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

THATS BULL....i want a rematch


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## Sinister (Nov 19, 2007)

dudeabides said:


> He said he couldn't see?


His eyes are pretty banged up, I can understand that it would be difficult to completely see if Varner had his knees on the ground.


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## aellis1 (Apr 8, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> I hate to sound like a keyboard warrior, but I think Varner's playing it up. The dry-heaving and the "OWWW" repeated 10 times. What a shame, it was a great fight.


dido...there is no way he couldn't see from that, feel bad for cerrone


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

I really think Varner was playng it up a bit.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

I think Cerrone was screwed.

I always felt Varner was a bit of a cheater, like when he spit out his mouthguard after Razor Rob cracked him.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

JT42 said:


> At least there will be a decision but still I am really disappointed in Varner. Looks like he was just exhausted and saw a way out imo...and I am a huge Varner fan :thumbsdown:


That is eactly the way I see it, he b!tch out. LAME!1


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Can someone get a gif, because I need to see it again.

I honestly think it was a legal knee, but I'm not 100% sure.


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

Varner knew he was ahead on the cards and knew Cerrone was coming on so he took the easy way out. The knee barely touched him and suddenly he can't see?? Cerrone got hit 50 times in the eyes and was swollen to hell and he was still fighting. Varner, you coward. Can't see my ass.


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## spaulding91 (Sep 23, 2007)

ive seen guys get hit by crazy blows that were 10 times harder and cleaner than that and get up. i feel as though he saw cerrone wasnt tired and he found a way out. usually i try and defend these guys but this was a little much.


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## Steph05050 (Jun 4, 2008)

milkkid291 said:


> I really think Varner was playng it up a bit.


i totally agree...i really dont get how that grazed knee ended the fight...he couldnt see? and in serve pain? im no fighter but i think i could have continued after that :dunno:


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## Sinister (Nov 19, 2007)

Cerrone has a bright future. Really should have been a NC in my opinion, but rules are rules.


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## Wise (Oct 8, 2006)

Way to hate on Varner when Cerrone was the one who threw the dumb blatantly illegal knee. 

Varner was winning that fight either way. Unless Cerrone KO'd him or got the sub that fight was over imo, which showed in the judges score cards.


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## Hett (Apr 30, 2007)

aellis1 said:


> dido...there is no way he couldn't see from that, feel bad for cerrone


Because you've been kneed in the face in the 5th round of a championship bout? You have no clue how that knee effected him. He immediately went down and he had a nice bruise under his right eye. 

It's not the best ending in the world, but it's a lot better than a DQ. It's pretty obvious that Varner was ahead on the cards and would have won the decision regardless. Again, I don't understand why they don't give fighters the full 5 minutes after a foul and call the fight immediately.


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

milkkid291 said:


> Can someone get a gif, because I need to see it again.
> 
> I honestly think it was a legal knee, but I'm not 100% sure.


It was very close. When he threw it I think Varner was on just the balls of his feet but I think he put his hand/knee down as it landed. It may have been legal and if it wasn't I don't think you can blame Cerrone for thinking it was.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

I find it to be especially sketchy because Varner didn't even want to wait the full 5 minutes to recover. He just kept saying "I can't see", then acted perfectly fine in the post-fight interview. He put on sunglasses to cover up the fact his eye was perfectly fine, absolutely bullshit IMO.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Yeah because it looked like it was a legal knee when he threw it then Varner put his legs/knees down.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Guys lets really think about it. The guy had fought 4 rounds and is gassed. Even a glancing blow from a knee is going to really hurt him especially when he stops moving and takes time.

This is coming off horribly IMO from this forum.

If he hadn't been fighting back all fight then maybe but he put on a 4 round war.


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## Rick The Impelr (Oct 5, 2008)

If he had energy to whine and put on his gear and aviators on, then............


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> I find it to be especially sketchy because Varner didn't even want to wait the full 5 minutes to recover. He just kept saying "I can't see", then acted perfectly fine in the post-fight interview. He put on sunglasses to cover up the fact his eye was perfectly fine, absolutely bullshit IMO.


you don't get 5 minutes to recover..you only get 5 minutes to recover from a groin strike...big john made that clear on the fight network a few months ago b/c there was some controversy over a fight...not sure which one it was, but you do not get 5 minutes to recover....

i hated varner before this fight...but you can't really blame him regardless of whether he could see or not...he was badly dmg'd and it was smarter for him to take the 5 round decision then to fight for another 3 minutes and likely get finished...i dislike him, but I don't fault his actions here....cuz we really don't have the right to judge whether he could see or not.

edit: just remembered, it was in response to the leites/marquart fight when leites got some time to recover and he pointed out on the show that was a bad reffing call and the fight either should have continued right away or been stopped


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## Scarecrow (Mar 20, 2008)

He definitely should have been given the full 5 minutes. They called it one minute into his recovery time which is bull. In any case, I also had this one for Varner by a wide margin.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Wise said:


> Way to hate on Varner when Cerrone was the one who threw the dumb blatantly illegal knee.
> 
> Varner was winning that fight either way. Unless Cerrone KO'd him or got the sub that fight was over imo, which showed in the judges score cards.


If we can get a link, I think Cerrone threw it when it was legal, then right before it landed, Varner's knees were down.
not sure though, we need a gif.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

How the hell does anyone have that fight 48-47 Cerrone? I give Varner every round but the second.

Still, it sucks that the fight was finished this way. Varner should have taken the time. There should be a rematch.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> I find it to be especially sketchy because Varner didn't even want to wait the full 5 minutes to recover. He just kept saying "I can't see", then acted perfectly fine in the post-fight interview. He put on sunglasses to cover up the fact his eye was perfectly fine, absolutely bullshit IMO.


Scott Smith did the same thing did he want out?

He didn't put on the sunglasses his corner dressed him and I'm sure that it has too do with a sponsorship deal.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> you don't get 5 minutes to recover..you only get 5 minutes to recover from a groin strike


That's according to Dan Mirgliotta, re-watch the Varner violation, you hear the referee say "You have the full 5 minutes to recover".


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> you don't get 5 minutes to recover..you only get 5 minutes to recover from a groin strike


That doc said he has 5 mins.


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## Hett (Apr 30, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> He put on sunglasses to cover up the fact his eye was perfectly fine, absolutely bullshit IMO.


You mean the same sunglasses here wore as he came out and would have put on regardless of a win or a loss because they were probably a sponsor for him?


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## JT42 (Dec 31, 2006)

There is no doubt in my mind that Varner won Rounds 1, 3, and 4 but he just looked really, really tired by the 5th. I just think its pretty crappy that he couldnt finish out 3 more minutes. It was a grazing knee and I really dont see how he would be unable to recover from that


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> Scott Smith did the same thing did he want out?
> 
> He didn't put on the sunglasses his corner dressed him and I'm sure that it has too do with a sponsorship deal.


Please, don't be so naive. The knee barely made contact with Varner, dude was gassed and wanted out of a round that Cerrone could have stolen. You don't need to put sunglasses on to appease a sponsor, you could rest them on your hat. The difference between injured Varner and post-fight interview Varner was the difference between night and day.




milkkid291 said:


> That doc said he has 5 mins.


Exactly! Glad someone else heard it.


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## Seth_petruzelli (Oct 5, 2008)

definitely shouldve been a no contest.That was bullshit how they scored only 4 rounds.Even though cerrone lost according to 2 judges, I feel that he won.He was battering varner on the feet in 3 out of 4 rounds, constant kicks, he was always going for submissions, ect.

Also, cerrone has one of the best chins i've ever seen


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> That's according to Dan Mirgliotta, re-watch the Varner violation, you hear the referee say "You have the full 5 minutes to recover".


i'm pretty sure that is a bad reffing call then...cuz as i mentioned in my editted post...big john was addressing the marquart/leites fight and pointed out leites should NOT have been given 5 minutes to recover...and he made it very clear

i wouldn't be surprised if the ref's didn't know tho


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Hett said:


> You mean the same sunglasses here wore as he came out and would have put on regardless of a win or a loss because they were probably a sponsor for him?


Too coincidental that they made such a big deal for him to wear his sunglasses after the fight. What's more important, addressing the fans or putting on sunglasses?


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> i'm pretty sure that is a bad reffing call then...cuz as i mentioned in my editted post...big john was addressing the marquart/leites fight and pointed out leites should NOT have been given 5 minutes to recover...and he made it very clear
> 
> i wouldn't be surprised if the ref's didn't know tho


As long as the doc sees that your eye is fine, you have 5 mins to recover. If the cut or whatever is too bad, then no or if you verbally quit and say you can't see, then no.

Varner verbally said he can't see and said he couldn't continue.


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## Hett (Apr 30, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Please, don't be so naive. The knee barely made contact with Varner, dude was gassed and wanted out of a round that Cerrone could have stolen. You don't need to put sunglasses on to appease a sponsor, you could rest them on your hat. The difference between injured Varner and post-fight interview Varner was the difference between night and day.


So why didn't he wear them on his hat when he made the entrance into the ring? Those glasses were going on his face win, lose or fan-man stoppage.

The difference between injured Lindland and post-fight Lindland was also night and day, a few minutes makes a big difference in a strike to the head. He also showed a definite bruise under his right eye that wasn't there before.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

milkkid291 said:


> As long as the doc sees that your eye is fine, you have 5 mins to recover. If the cut or whatever is too bad, then no or if you verbally quit and say you can't see, then no.
> 
> Varner verbally said he can't see and said he couldn't continue.


hmmm i wonder why big john made such a big deal about it on the fight network then....either he's wrong....the ref's wrong....i'm wrong from missing the point entirely....or your wrong lol!


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## Hett (Apr 30, 2007)

Seth_petruzelli said:


> definitely shouldve been a no contest.That was bullshit how they scored only 4 rounds.


Go back to 1st grade math.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> i'm pretty sure that is a bad reffing call then...cuz as i mentioned in my editted post...big john was addressing the marquart/leites fight and pointed out leites should NOT have been given 5 minutes to recover...and he made it very clear
> 
> i wouldn't be surprised if the ref's didn't know tho


What bothers me though is that Varner didn't even bother taking the 5 minutes offered to him, he was insistent that he could not see, then acted perfectly fine in his interview. 

Also, there may be different rules for title fights with regard to injuries like that. No one wants a main event to be marred by such a crappy turn of events.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Then you can argue the fact about Cerrone's eyes.

I just want to see a gif to see if the strike was legal or not as it was thrown.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Methinks we need a rematch.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Please, don't be so naive. The knee barely made contact with Varner, dude was gassed and wanted out of a round that Cerrone could have stolen. You don't need to put sunglasses on to appease a sponsor, you could rest them on your hat. The difference between injured Varner and post-fight interview Varner was the difference between night and day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea the guy was gassed took an illegal knee and wasn't able to keep going.

Of course the fact he was gassed had something to do with it. It's a lot harder to get hit when you are gassed then when you are fresh.

Varner didn't knee Cerrone so why is everyone blaming him.

And how do you know his sponsorship deal didn't have to do with the sunglasses?

I'm sure he didn't get those sunglasses from his other sponser so how do you 

know he didn't promise a sponser he would wear his sunglasses post fight?

Once again he didn't put them on his corner dressed him like they always do.


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## Hett (Apr 30, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Too coincidental that they made such a big deal for him to wear his sunglasses after the fight. What's more important, addressing the fans or putting on sunglasses?


Are you kidding me? The fighter's people always are throwing things on them, in their hands, on their heads as the person is trying to get interviewed.


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## Sinister (Nov 19, 2007)

I'm impressed with a lot of the guys on this forum, they can really take a strike with ease. Apparently a grazzing knee doesn't hurt at all, I mean it's just someone putting all there weight behind one of the strongest parts of there body and hitting someone in the most vulnerable part (other than the testies). Yeah that would be so easy to get back up from. . . 

Common guys, that would kill. I've been hit by knees with less effort than what Cerrone threw and it kills.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> hmmm i wonder why big john made such a big deal about it on the fight network then....either he's wrong....the ref's wrong....i'm wrong from missing the point entirely....or your wrong lol!


From the fights I have seen, they are given 5 minutes and the doc comes and checks your eyes. If there is no serious damage like cuts, scratches or whatever and the doc thinks you can continue as long as you can see, they will still go on.

You should be given 5 mins, then afterwards, if you think you can't fight, you can't and they call it.

Atleast that is what I have seen from all other MMA fights where stuff like this has happened.

Same thing with any illegal strike as long as you can continue and the doc thinks you can still fight, you are given an allotted time to recover and it's your choice from there on out.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Fedor>ALL when would he have told his corner about his plan to fake this injury?

And that he needed to make sure they put the sunglasses on?

And why would no one in the cage overhear this?


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Hett said:


> So why didn't he wear them on his hat when he made the entrance into the ring? Those glasses were going on his face win, lose or fan-man stoppage.
> 
> The difference between injured Lindland and post-fight Lindland was also night and day, a few minutes makes a big difference in a strike to the head. He also showed a definite bruise under his right eye that wasn't there before.


Don't be absurd, that's not even comparable! Matt Lindland was knocked unconscious and couldn't do a post-fight interview. Varner knew exactly where he was, and even refused time to recover. He was tired and took the easiest way out, the dry-heaving was so over the top. :thumbsdown:



bbjd7 said:


> Yea the guy was gassed took an illegal knee and wasn't able to keep going.
> 
> Of course the fact he was gassed had something to do with it. It's a lot harder to get hit when you are gassed then when you are fresh.
> 
> ...


Even if the sunglasses are a stretch, the way he behaved was bullshit. I can see a bad actor a mile away.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

What I want to know is was it a legal knee strike as it was thrown? As it landed, was it still legal because his knees weren't on the ground but his shins were?

Because if your kneeling, but its just your feet on the ground, you can still get kneed.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

So let's see what do you think happened the knee grazed him and he decided I'm going to fake this.

In a split second.

Varner was gassed and the knee hurt him. If Cerrone didn't want the fight to end then guess what don't throw a knee in that situation.

Milkkid I believe Mir said your shins count.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Hett said:


> Are you kidding me? The fighter's people always are throwing things on them, in their hands, on their heads as the person is trying to get interviewed.


Like I said, even if the sunglasses point is a stretch, the over-dramatic acting sent the BS alarm off.



bbjd7 said:


> Fedor>ALL when would he have told his corner about his plan to fake this injury?
> 
> And that he needed to make sure they put the sunglasses on?
> 
> And why would no one in the cage overhear this?


I don't think it was planned, I just think Varner saw a way to get out and took it because he knew he was probably ahead on the scorecards. No one would outright say "Okay I'm taking a dive and claiming an illegal knee has blinded me" in an area with a microphone, don't be ridiculous.


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## aellis1 (Apr 8, 2007)

milkkid291 said:


> Then you can argue the fact about Cerrone's eyes.
> 
> I just want to see a gif to see if the strike was legal or not as it was thrown.


It was illegal, but it took about 20 times of me watching it over in slow motion to come to that conclusion. Varners right shin was on the ground (like when you sit indian style) when the knee hit his head, his left knee was still in the air.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Ok, then another question.

As Cerrone was throwing the knee, it was a legal knee strike because I remember nothing but varner's feet were on the ground then he dropped his legs. So would it still be considered a legal hit?

Unless I saw it wrong.


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## Hett (Apr 30, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Varner knew exactly where he was, and even refused time to recover. He was tired and took the easiest way out, the dry-heaving was so over the top. :thumbsdown:


He didn't say he didn't want anymore time. The doctor asked him and he said he couldn't see. It was the doctor and refs fault for not allowing a few minutes to pass and see if he could recover. We've seen this multiple times where a doctor stops a fight prematurely before a fighter has ample time to recover (Scott Smith) even when they are actively protesting


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## Seth_petruzelli (Oct 5, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> Don't be absurd, that's not even comparable! Matt Lindland was knocked unconscious and couldn't do a post-fight interview. Varner knew exactly where he was, and even refused time to recover. He was tired and took the easiest way out, the dry-heaving was so over the top. :thumbsdown:
> 
> 
> 
> Even if the sunglasses are a stretch, the way he behaved was bullshit. I can see a bad actor a mile away.


I agree 100%.The way varner was behaving post-knee was so ridiculously over the top and fake its easy to see he wanted the easy way out and wasnt hurt enough to stop fighting.The way he was acting reminded me of a little kid faking being sick so they dont have to go to school


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Toro said:


>



So it was legal as it was thrown. So it's illegal because his legs went down right before he got hit?


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## Hett (Apr 30, 2007)

milkkid291 said:


> So it was legal as it was thrown. So it's illegal because his legs went down right before he got hit?


That's my take on it. It's a split second thing. I've seen that happen before.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Hett said:


> That's my take on it. It's a split second thing. I've seen that happen before.


I guess that is kind of a hole in the ruling then lol.


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## aellis1 (Apr 8, 2007)

milkkid291 said:


> Ok, then another question.
> 
> As Cerrone was throwing the knee, it was a legal knee strike because I remember nothing but varner's feet were on the ground then he dropped his legs. So would it still be considered a legal hit?
> 
> Unless I saw it wrong.


As he wound his leg back to throw the knee, Varner's knees were about 6 inches off the mat; as he was about to attempt a double-leg. I don't know if its considered a legal strike or not because even though his knees were off the mat when the strike was initially thrown, he still ended up kneeing a downed opponent.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

milkkid291 said:


> I guess that is kind of a hole in the ruling then lol.


I agree, if it's clean as the attack is originally launched, it should be a legal strike.



Hett said:


> He didn't say he didn't want anymore time. The doctor asked him and he said he couldn't see. It was the doctor and refs fault for not allowing a few minutes to pass and see if he could recover. We've seen this multiple times where a doctor stops a fight prematurely before a fighter has ample time to recover (Scott Smith) even when they are actively protesting



He also didn't protest to a stoppage. He was offered five minutes to recover and instead of waiting it out, he said was "I can't see", then acted like he was perfectly fine post fight.

Cerrone's eyes were probably worse off than Varner's were.


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## Hett (Apr 30, 2007)

milkkid291 said:


> I guess that is kind of a hole in the ruling then lol.


It's a tough thing I guess for the refs. Under the current rule, the ref only has to see when the illegal contact is made, where the defensive fighter is positioned. If they change it, the ref has to know exactly when the strike was began and when the defensive fighter is in a downed position. It becomes a much more difficult decision for the ref


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Hett said:


> It's a tough thing I guess for the refs. Under the current rule, the ref only has to see when the illegal contact is made, where the defensive fighter is positioned. If they change it, the ref has to know exactly when the strike was began and when the defensive fighter is in a downed position. It becomes a much more difficult decision for the ref


There needs to be video-review, like in hockey.


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## Hett (Apr 30, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> He also didn't protest to a stoppage. He was offered five minutes to recover and instead of waiting it out, he said was "I can't see", then acted like he was perfectly fine post fight.
> 
> Cerrone's eyes were probably worse off than Varner's were.


Then I guess I watched a different fight, because the fight I watched, Varner was visibly upset the fight was stopped and could be easily heard saying he didn't want the fight to stop. 

Of course Cerrone's eye was worse off, he had been taking a beating for 5 rounds. But it doesn't change the fact that Varner took an illegal knee to the face and answered the doctor that he couldn't see and the dcotor and ref stopped the fight.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Maybe the coaches can throw in the red challenge flag


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## Hett (Apr 30, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> There needs to be video-review, like in hockey.


No way. The system is fine the way it is. Pretend Cerrone's knee was legal, but the ref stopped it to review in case it was illegal. All that does is allow his opponent to recover from a knockout knee.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

What, in the hell, was that shit?

I even had them at 2 rounds a piece, too.

Too bad, that fight was really good, it needed a proper ending and not a knee that looked like it barely grazed him.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

I'm just saying that is it still considered illegal even though when the strike was thrown, it was legal?


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

as a professional fighter doing this for money....varner was either honest or smart IMO....unfortunately the smart category means he's kind of a *****

right now i think it was a bit of both

and yeh jeesh that's about as close to a legal knee as it gets

i wish knee's the ground were legal...it's a damn fight



> What, in the hell, was that shit?
> 
> I even had them at 2 rounds a piece, too.
> 
> Too bad, that fight was really good, it needed a proper ending and not a knee that looked like it barely grazed him.


yeh unfortunately in north america, a fighter cannot control a fight from the bottom w/o near submission attempts....it's just how things are scored here....and it sucks


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Jamie, I award this Oscar to you...


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Hett said:


> Then I guess I watched a different fight, because the fight I watched, Varner was visibly upset the fight was stopped and could be easily heard saying he didn't want the fight to stop.


He sounded more upset with his performance rather than the stoppage: "I'm better than this guys!" He was playing-up the injury, seriously, you actually believed the dry-heaving? :confused02: 



Hett said:


> Of course Cerrone's eye was worse off, he had been taking a beating for 5 rounds. But it doesn't change the fact that Varner took an illegal knee to the face and answered the doctor that he couldn't see and the dcotor and ref stopped the fight.


The doctor offered him 5 minutes to recover, he didn't even wait that long to exclaim "OWW OWW I CAN'T SEE!" If he was in that excruciating of pain and couldn't wait five minutes to see if he felt any differently, then why did he act just fine in the post fight interview? 

And Cerrone wasn't "taking a beating", he was losing but it was a very competitive match after the first round. The body kicks were adding up, Varner was tiring out, Cerrone knew this and pushed the pace in the 5th round, thought he had an opening with a knee---which didn't completely connect---and (in my opinion) Varner played it up.

Either way, there should be an immediate re-match.

EDIT: I'm glad to see that Damone and I are on the same page with this.


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## wooperman (Jan 26, 2009)

There are some interesting truths about the Varner / Cerrone fight. 
1. Varner has a strange personality.
2. Varner has been involved in wierd fight controversy before(w/Razor Rob).
3. Varner was beating Cerrone pretty badly, with power.
4. Cerrone is a badass himself, despite the damage.
5. The kick was legal when thrown, but illegal when landed.
6. That hug creeped me out. I like that fighters are friendly, but save the hugs for after please.
8. Varner seemed to be acting. 
7. Varner was hurt by the knee, maybe not as badly as his acting.
So, if he knows he's hurt, and the kick was illegal, why should he risk his belt? He knew it would go to cards. He could have lost, and he did on one score card. I don't think he knew the outcome. Based on the info he had at the time, he did what was in his rights. Cerrone opened that door for him. Varner loses many, many style points for that ending. But with those sunglasses..I think Hollywood Varner was thinking "instant rematch"! $$$ Varner is a beast. Cerrone is a machine. Let's do it again.

EDIT: I meant to say, Didn't it seem like Varner started showing mercy to a nearly blind Cerrone? Cerrone couldn't see at all for like 3 minutes and Varner did not go in for kill. Very strange looking to me.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

He was not beating Cowboy badly. Cowboy was able to press the action, land some nice kicks and punches and work off his back. I scored it even going into the 5th and Cowboy looked good there until Varner decided to play it up.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

Damone said:


> Jamie, I award this Oscar to you...


You have my dying right now. I hope you are happy.


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## Seth_petruzelli (Oct 5, 2008)

Damone said:


> Jamie, I award this Oscar to you...


lol, varner deserves a razzie for that bad acting


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Hett said:


> No way. The system is fine the way it is. Pretend Cerrone's knee was legal, but the ref stopped it to review in case it was illegal. All that does is allow his opponent to recover from a knockout knee.


Really, so you believe that it's legitimately fine for Kevin Burns to hold a TKO win over Anthony Johnson for an illegal, fight ending eye-poke? :confused02:


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## wooperman (Jan 26, 2009)

Damone said:


> He was not beating Cowboy badly. Cowboy was able to press the action, land some nice kicks and punches and work off his back. I scored it even going into the 5th and Cowboy looked good there until Varner decided to play it up.


I agree, I don't know how to score officially, I meant in regards to power. Varners shots seemd to be doing the most damage. See Cerrone's face.
I thought Cerrone was gonna pick Varner appart. Otherwise very evenly matched/scored.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

wooperman said:


> I agree, I don't know how to score officially, I meant in regards to power. Varners shots seemd to be doing the most damage. See Cerrone's face.
> I thought Cerrone was gonna pick Varner appart. Otherwise very evenly matched/scored.


yeh but looking at someone's face means nothing when cerrone's strikes were mostly to the leg and body


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## wooperman (Jan 26, 2009)

...not to mention the broken hand Varner claimed after the fight (which I believe came in the 2nd when Varner blocked a hard kick to the face. I'm saying it was close, which makes me question the Varner throwing the fight theory. He could have lost that thing. Unless he was hanging on thinking Cerrone would be DQ'd. Then he probably crapped his pants when they said it's going to the cards.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> He sounded more upset with his performance rather than the stoppage: "I'm better than this guys!" He was playing-up the injury, seriously, you actually believed the dry-heaving? :confused02:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For what its worth, I agree with both of you as well. The guy is a prett damn good actor. Also, as was pointed out before, I think the argument that the knee was thrown legally deserves some review. The fighter throwing the shot has no idea what his opponent is going to do and shouldn't be held accountable for that. 

I seriously hope there is an immediate rematch (though Varne should have a ong suspension due to that "damaging" " illegal" knee) and that Cerrone dominates him. Now that he knows that Varner has some vicious GnP, he should be able to plan for that.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

milkkid291 said:


> *So it was legal as it was thrown*. So it's illegal because his legs went down right before he got hit?


Hard to tell but I'd be more leaning towards _illegal_ as it was thrown. The reason is and tell me if I'm wrong, having a hand on the ground like Varner had as the knee was thrown, makes you a grounded opponent. It's really a matter of a split second but as Cerrone prepares and goes for the knee, Varner had his hand on the ground. So I'd consider it as an illegal strike as it was thrown. Anyhow, that was a very risky move by Cerrone and he shouldn't have thrown it in this situation. 

PS: I think Varner was acting it up but at the same time, Cerrone shouldn't have thrown that knee. Silly move IMO :dunno:

EDIT: included the GIF, thanks Toro


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Davisty69 said:


> For what its worth, I agree with both of you as well. The guy is a prett damn good actor. Also, as was pointed out before, I think the argument that the knee was thrown legally deserves some review. The fighter throwing the shot has no idea what his opponent is going to do and shouldn't be held accountable for that.
> 
> I seriously hope there is an immediate rematch (though Varne should have a ong suspension due to that "damaging" " illegal" knee) and that Cerrone dominates him. Now that he knows that Varner has some vicious GnP, he should be able to plan for that.


My biggest suggestion to Cerrone would be to work on takedown defense, as Varners takedowns are really what made a difference in the scoring of the fight. I know Cerrone's really comfortable off his back, but it doesn't look good to willingly go to the ground every time Varner shoots.

Another thing he should have gone for is footlocks. I don't know how many times the opening for a heel hook arose, but Cerrone certainly should have made an attempt when it did occur.

Also, Donald is probably pretty good from the top position as well, so he should have gone for more takedowns of his own.


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## Vikingpride (Jan 20, 2008)

Wow that fight brings up alot of questions/issues. 

1) The kneeing of a downed opponent rule needs some refining or something. because when Cerrone threw the knee Varner was on his feet, but before it connected he dropped down for a double and the knee connected when he was on the ground. 

2) The scoring system is just to opinion based. I mean do you score the take downs that varner had or do you score the sub attempts that cerrone threw and Varner had to fight his way out of? Also how much does it really score to be the one pushing the action like Cerrone was? Another issue what scores more punches to the face that opens up cuts or huge kicks to the body that leave huge bruises?

3) and of course the big issue was Varner really that hurt or did he ham it up?

At first i was yelling at the tv. Telling that p**** to get up and fight. However after watching a few replays it's not out of the realm of possibility that the knee did more damage to his eye then we could imagine. 

Bottom line it was a great fight and if they do in deed have a rematch then it might turn out great for the fans. Not only did we get to watch these guys fight 4+ rounds, but we will get to watch them fight for another possible 5 rounds. Something that might not have happened if the fight actually ended. 

O one more thing i really hope Cerrone was letting varner take him down otherwise Cerrone has the worst TDD ever. I mean Cerrone made Varner look like Koshcheck or something. I just can't imagine his TDD would be that bad training with a guy like GSP.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Varner's wrestling is solid, but Cowboy definitely has some awful takedown defense. Always has.



> ...not to mention the broken hand Varner claimed after the fight (which I believe came in the 2nd when Varner blocked a hard kick to the face. I'm saying it was close, which makes me question the Varner throwing the fight theory. He could have lost that thing. Unless he was hanging on thinking Cerrone would be DQ'd. Then he probably crapped his pants when they said it's going to the car


There are a lot of unanswered questions, which is why we need to see this fight again. Like you said, the broken hand plays a part, as does the acting job by Jamie Varner.

Cowboy looked devastated.


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## mihklo (Jun 18, 2008)

to me as it has been said a bunch of times already it seemed as if varner acted a bit. he to me he knew that he was ahead on the score cards, and knew that he would get the win. i dont agree with it, but it was smart of him to keep his belt. he looked pretty gassed, had thrown pretty much everything he had at cerrone and the cowboy kept coming. i think he might have been worried of possibly getting subbed in the final 3+ minutes, but that is my opinion. i thought he was ahead a bit on the scorecard myself. i feel he probably would have taken the 5 minutes to recover if he felt he was behind on the scorecard. as for the recovery time, it seems like it changes all the time, and i would like to know what the rule really is. last week during the hendo/franklin fight franklin was not given a 5 min recovery for the eye poke at the end. after reading about it afterward i think on mmajunkie, it was explained that only a groin strike is allotted that time frame for recovery. 

as for if the strike was legal or not, frank mir explained it as if there is 3 points of the body on the ground it is illegal. now as for the timing, i would think it would go by not when it was thrown but when it was landed. kinda like groin strikes, how often do you see a fighter throw a kick and his opponent move and get hit in the groin? 

this was a great fight, cerrone showed a ton of heart....there were a few times i thought it would be over. look forward to seeing the 2nd part.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

I think the knee was legal AS it was being thrown, this is one of the many reasons they need to change the rules to allow knees/kicks to the head of a downed opponent.

I really don't know if Varner was acting or not. The knee looked like it grazed him, and if it hit the temple, he really could of been messed up from the knee. Only he really knows, but I usually tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the fighter.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

I really think personally that Varner wanted a way out of that fight, he knew he was ahead on cards and also knew he wasnt finishing him especially with the broken hand. I defeinetly think that was a BS acting job there, the knee clearly just grazed him. He had been getting hit harder than that all fight. I dunno some might disagree but I dont think at all that he couldnt continue. Props to Cerrone for the respect he showed after the stupid way this fight ended. Even if he would have lost the fight anyway I think Varner took the cowards way out, even his face just looked like he was faking it, I dunno this made me mad cause it was such an exciting fight. Damn WEC just doesnt have bad cards ever.


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## e-thug (Jan 18, 2007)

Going to try and focus on the good hear, and say what a fight! I had it scored 3 rounds to 1 Varner going into the 5th round, but man Cerrone is one tough SOB.

Not really sure how I felt about the end, I mean I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was hurt, but the knee didnt look like there was a whole lot of connection. I really would love a rematch.


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## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

That's why I hate the no knees / kicks to the head of a downed opponent rules.

We would see so many less sloppy takedowns and lay-n-pray wrestling.

Ugh!


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

So according bloodyelbow, Varner also had a broken foot. This just further makes me think that Jamie was hurt and worried that Cerrone could have finished him in the 5th. 

I'm no psychologist, but it doesn't seem unrealistic for me to believe that if Fighter A was in a 5 round fight with a broken foot and hand, against Fighter B who he couldn't put to sleep stalking him down, and Fighter B caught Fighter A with a huge illegal knee, Fighter A would probably be inclined to take the easy way out (in the form of claiming blindness which automatically brings an end to a fight usually, i.e. Horn vs Liddell 2, Irvin vs Cain) as well.


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## stitch1z (Dec 9, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> So according bloodyelbow, Varner also had a broken foot. This just further makes me think that Jamie was hurt and worriedd that Cerrone could have finished him in the 5th.
> 
> I'm no psychologist, but it doesn't seem unrealistic for me to believe that if Fighter A was in a 5 round fight with a broken foot and hand, against Fighter B who he couldn't put to sleep stalking him down, and Fighter B caught Fighter A with a huge illegal knee, Fighter A would probably be inclined to take the easy way out (in the form of claiming blindness which automatically brings an end to a fight usually, i.e. Horn vs Liddell 2, Irvin vs Cain) as well.


I'm inclined to agree with you.

Scott Smith wanted to keep going against Lawler and blurted out "I can't see out of my left eye". He wanted to continue, but after that they wouldn't even give him his five minute, the fight was over. 

The announcers even laughed (because it is common knowledge among fighters) that you can't say "I can't see" and expect them to let you continue the fight.

Varner also laid it on kind of thick. For whatever reason, he took advantage of the illegal knee IMO. I'm pretty sure he assumed it would mean a DQ for Cowboy (as did I).


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## Darkgecko (Apr 21, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> So according bloodyelbow, Varner also had a broken foot. This just further makes me think that Jamie was hurt and worried that Cerrone could have finished him in the 5th.
> 
> I'm no psychologist, but it doesn't seem unrealistic for me to believe that if Fighter A was in a 5 round fight with a broken foot and hand, against Fighter B who he couldn't put to sleep stalking him down, and Fighter B caught Fighter A with a huge illegal knee, Fighter A would probably be inclined to take the easy way out (in the form of claiming blindness which automatically brings an end to a fight usually, i.e. Horn vs Liddell 2, Irvin vs Cain) as well.


Yeah, that's basically how I feel as well. It was a risky knee to throw, considering the rules. As I mentioned in another thread, it reminds me of the CB Dolloway crap with half tapping. Of course I can't be sure, but it certainly looks that way, and it's happened more than once.

I don't care if I can't see or not, I'm not going to scream it unless I am wanting a particular reaction. Chances are, Varner thought he would win a DQ, I think everyone else did, including the accouncers. Actually, has this ever happened before? It can only happen in a title fight, right?


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