# *Official Alistair Overeem vs Fabricio Werdum Pre/Post Fight Thread*



## dudeabides (Sep 30, 2008)

Thread for the main event. If a lot of other threads about this fight pop up on Saturday night or Sunday, this is where you will find them merged.​


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## MMAnWEED (Aug 8, 2010)

Overeem's arm looks ridiculous in that picture. With that being said, Don't expect a close fight. Alistair is going to crush the elite grappler early and visciously. I've had the honor to see Overeem train last month and the man is looking like more of a juggernaut than ever. After he wins this tournament, he NEEDS to fight the top competition in the UFC or else he's going to get bored.


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

The Reem will have his way with Werdum. I think it's funny most MMA rankings have Werdum a few spots ahead of him, and yet The Reem is a 5:1 favorite. O well. That all changes on Saturday.


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

Reem by destruction.


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

I really want to see this fight because Overeem has looked really impressive but the competition he has faced has been ridiculously low level. This is his first real test in years. It is easy to look good against C level fighters like Thompson/Fujita/Rogers. If he dominates Werdum then I'm sold.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

I am the only one thinking Werdum has this?

Werdum is by far the best fighter Overeem has fought in a long time. We haven't seen Overeem's gas tank yet and I doubt it is anything special after the first round with all that extra muscle mass.

I see Werdum surviving the first and then coming back to win it. Werdum has only ever been KOed by Dos Santos, Overeem has the ability to knock him out but it won't be easy.

Loving the odds, hopefully Overeems gas tank isn't too bad and he survives to lose the decision. Could make an absolute killing in Vbookie if that happens.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

420atalon said:


> I am the only one thinking Werdum has this?
> 
> Werdum is by far the best fighter Overeem has fought in a long time. We haven't seen Overeem's gas tank yet and I doubt it is anything special after the first round with all that extra muscle mass.
> 
> ...


Werdum isn't getting a takedown until Overeem gases . His takedowns aren't that good and Overeem will easily overpower him. Werdum also isn't winning in the clinch so he can't wear him out like that. Overeem isn't gassing within 2 rounds beating on a guy standing he isn't a moron like carwin he is a real striker.

Overeem via prison **** unless Werdum hits a flying armbar in the first 2 minutes of the fight. The only real question going into this fight is whether or not Overeem can top the knockout JDS scored on Werdum from a theatrical standpoint.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I go out on a limb and say Overeem First Round destruction!!:thumbsup:



420atalon said:


> I am the only one thinking Werdum has this?
> 
> Werdum is by far the best fighter Overeem has fought in a long time. We haven't seen Overeem's gas tank yet and I doubt it is anything special after the first round with all that extra muscle mass.
> 
> ...


Overeem fought 3 times at 1 night and didn't showed any signs of a bad gass tank.

This is wishful thinking you have here.


Overeem is much stronger, so much better on the feet and even a better Wrestler. All Werdum has is a bottom game!


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

osmium said:


> Werdum isn't getting a takedown until Overeem gases . His takedowns aren't that good and Overeem will easily overpower him. Werdum also isn't winning in the clinch so he can't wear him out like that. Overeem isn't gassing within 2 rounds beating on a guy standing he isn't a moron like carwin he is a real striker.
> 
> Overeem via prison **** unless Werdum hits a flying armbar in the first 2 minutes of the fight. The only real question going into this fight is whether or not Overeem can top the knockout JDS scored on Werdum from a theatrical standpoint.


lol keeping it real :thumb02:


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## Big_Charm (Jan 7, 2011)

I have a lot of respect for Werdum and his BJJ skills. I do not think he's taking Overeem seriously. He's still savoring that Fedor submission victory.

That being said, Overeem is not even close to the fighter he once was. I'm thinking mid-late round TKO or brutal KO via clinch for Ubereem :thumb02:

After this tourny, he should go to UFC and start dismantling the top 5 guys there.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> Overeem fought 3 times at 1 night and didn't showed any signs of a bad gass tank.
> 
> This is wishful thinking you have here.
> 
> ...


Just watch. 

Overeem is a good striker but if he can't finish Werdum early I don't see him winning this fight.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

420atalon said:


> Just watch.
> 
> Overeem is a good striker but if he can't finish Werdum early I don't see him winning this fight.


Sig bet and 2 Million Credits bet? :thumbsup:


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

I already have enough bet on this fight. If you are so sure you should hit up the vbookie for method, some good odds there.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

420atalon said:


> I already have enough bet on this fight. If you are so sure you should hit up the vbookie for method, some good odds there.


I did that, but you have 14kk 

come on only 2 Million.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> I did that, but you have 14kk
> 
> come on only 2 Million.


I already have 5 mil on Werdum at far better odds, didn't even want to put that much on him as Overeem is dangerous but couldn't pass up the odds.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

Overeem by absolute sheer and utter domination. This will be a bad, painful night for Werdum. Alistair is on another level now, and he will start proving it tomorrow night.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

I love this man. This is the type of stuff that gets you up in the morning salivating for some MMA. The mystique of Overeem is just crazy right now.


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

The hospital better have a bed ready for Werdum.


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## terpgrad07 (Feb 7, 2011)

*Overeem - Werdum (who Wins ?)*

Who wins the fight tonight and why ?


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

lol this fight is a toss up, i have reem winning due to his size but i can easily see wedum submitting him.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Overeem will show us tonight that he is a threat to the HW division in the UFC, he was destroy Werdum in a one sided fight.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm picking Overeem for obvious reasons but i'm curious to hear how people see Werdum winning this(the few that picked him)?

Will he out-strike, out-wrestle or submit Overeem?


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

Overeem's bicep looks pregnant.


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## oordeel (Apr 14, 2007)

anyone willing to give a play by play after each round? Not getting showtime where I'm currently at 

Thanks


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Overeem to crush Werdrum, and then go on to lose to newly crowned HW champ, JDS.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

i like overeem, but man I'm so unsure of what to think.

the only thing to do again is Enjoy.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

PUMPED up!


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Come on Werdum, win me some credits!


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Alistair's entire career is riding on this fight.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Werdum just needs to weather that first round and find away to get this to the ground. IMO Werdums advantage on the ground will be bigger than Overeem's standing.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

oordeel said:


> anyone willing to give a play by play after each round? Not getting showtime where I'm currently at
> 
> Thanks


Sherdog.com or sth like that gives play by plays.


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## SerJ (Sep 17, 2009)

Overeem via knee KO!


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## SerJ (Sep 17, 2009)

Damn it Werdum! If you want it on the ground, get it down there!


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

The Reem is doing nothing.


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## suffersystem (Feb 4, 2007)

I actually think Werdum is winning this so far.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

Butt scoot ftw?


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## bAz666 (Feb 17, 2008)

wtf is this fight


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Silva vs. Leites anyone?


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

it looked like werdum still outstruck overeem. weird.


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## IcemanJacques (Mar 18, 2009)

Werdum really hasn't come to put on a show. Surely he can come up with better takedown attempts than that.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Werdum is a coward.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Werdum is winning the striking and pulled guard numerous times. Its ugly but holding your hands up won't win Reem the fight.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

1st round werdum....


i dont care what anyone says.... he was way more active


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Werdum is a ******* bitch.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Whoever gasses least now wins this fight, lol. 

Not a good showing for these two.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Reem almost looked like he was hurt there.


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## IcemanJacques (Mar 18, 2009)

Would have loved to see Reem leg kick him a lot more. Would really have made Werdum struggle. Watching this makes me like JDS much more. Knowing that he viciously knocked him out.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

werdum playing possum with the knee IMO.... we'll see later


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

werdum had striking r1 but reem is reaming werdum in r2 here.


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## suffersystem (Feb 4, 2007)

WTF? This is one strange fight.....




Edit: This Reem would get murdered in the UFC IMO.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

If Werdum takes this one i'll be pissed.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

both fighters tired.... werdum may have chance in third... wish this was 5 rounds


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Werdum is a scrub.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Wtf is wrong with Werdum. Why is he so tired...


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Round 2 is a toss up, round 1 was Werdum.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Alistair is not tired at all. Werdum just keeps butt scooting anytime Alistair gets close.


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## Jawni (Sep 27, 2009)

jesus, this has worst fight of the year written all over it. what the hell is this?


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

way more impressed with werdum than overeem with this fight..... and i thought overeem was going to manhandle this fight


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## IcemanJacques (Mar 18, 2009)

Terrible fight. I hope Bigfoot stomps whoever goes through.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Most of the rankings have Werdum in the top 3, does a top 3 guy act like that?


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

talk bad about Werdum if you want but, reem isn't winning


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## suffersystem (Feb 4, 2007)

I'd say Werdum, 2 rounds to 1.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Round 2 is a toss up, round 1 was Werdum.


How can you give round 1 to Werdum? he did nothing but flop and try to pull guard.


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## IcemanJacques (Mar 18, 2009)

What a horrible fight.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Round 2 is a toss up, round 1 was Werdum.


What fight are you watching? 30-27 Overeem.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Overeem has done practically nothing but posture in this fight. Alistair can act all annoyed at Werdum but he isn't doing anything, he is getting outstruck and is allowing Werdum to pull guard.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Overeem wins, though it should rightfully be a draw. Shite fight. 

That said, I respect that any fighter can have an off night. But this Overeem would be mauled by JDS or Cain.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

This was Werdum's fight to lose. He might have done that though. Close fight, I still give it to him but he spent a lot of time on the bottom(even if he initiated that doesn't look good in judges eyes).


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## Blitzz (Apr 13, 2009)

29-28 Werdum from me.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

If Werdum wins i don't know what i'll do.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

That was shit.


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## SerJ (Sep 17, 2009)

What a disappointing fight! The Overeem hype train has been derailed for me. Werdum has landed some good shots on the feet. I think JDS would KO Overeem and Cain would destroy him with his gas tank. 

Another note, Werdum has made this boring too. Too much pulling guard from him. He stalled too everytime he was getting up. They should start taking points for that crap!

These commentators are being a little bias. Werdum did land some good shots and arguably won the first round. Not sure about rounds 2 and 3.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

I think werdum won 29/28 myself. and I also think antonio silva will win this tournament.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Spec0688 said:


> How can you give round 1 to Werdum? he did nothing but flop and try to pull guard.


He oustruck Overeem and the Reem did nothing so pulling guard is better than nothing.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

osmium said:


> What fight are you watching? 30-27 Overeem.


This. Pulling guard does not score.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

5 round fight and Werdum would have won easily imo. Overeem was gassed.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

I'd hate to be a a judge right now.


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

I'm not impressed by either guy! Werdum should be off the top 3 and I don't even WANT TO HEAR how Overeem could beat Cain and JDS. He's damn lucky Werdum doesn't have KO power thats all I got to say!


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## footodors (Aug 26, 2007)

Werdum would have knocked uber out had he kept striking. Uber looked awful


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## Abrissbirne (Jul 4, 2010)

Wow Werdum sux badly. Seriously most boring fight i have ever seen. Werdum is totally overrated, he almost lost to Fedor too...


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

Alistair will win but he did shit in this fight. Werdum out-striked Overeem most of the time but the fight plan of flopping will give it to Overreem.​


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Lol @ 30-27!


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

BS decision but Werdum shot himself in the foot... Must not have taken this fight serious because he didn't have near the gas tank he usually does...


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

420atalon said:


> 5 round fight and Werdum would have won easily imo. Overeem was gassed.


Werdum could barely stand.

Good decision. 30-27 Overeem for sure.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

we all lost here


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

why the fff did UFC cut werdum..... talk about biting the gun. the dude has skills.


big foot will win overeem


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## suffersystem (Feb 4, 2007)

I though Werdum had it, but not surprised by the decision either.


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## IcemanJacques (Mar 18, 2009)

Overeem really needs to learn how to set up power strikes. All he threw in that fight were bombs.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

Werdum lost this fight because of the butt scooting and pulling guard. It looks extremely bad.

But there's no doubt in my mind that werdum outlanded overeem in rounds 1 and 3.

If you think he didn't, you're blinded by the guard pulling, but please tell me what reem did in those rounds.


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## Abrissbirne (Jul 4, 2010)

chosenFEW said:


> why the fff did UFC cut werdum..... talk about biting the gun. the dude has skills.


I wouldnt even book that dude for cleaning my windows...


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> Werdum could barely stand.
> 
> Good decision. 30-27 Overeem for sure.


And he was kicking Overeem's ass in the last couple minutes...

30-27 is an absolute joke. Werdum could easily and imo should have taken the 1st and 3rd rounds. Overeem did nothing but get pulled into top position...

Like I say, this was Werdum's fight to lose. Unfortunately that is what he did...


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

sNuFf_rEaLiTy said:


> Werdum lost this fight because of the butt scooting and pulling guard. It looks extremely bad.
> 
> But there's no doubt in my mind that werdum outlanded overeem in rounds 1 and 3.
> 
> If you think he didn't, you're blinded by the guard pulling, but please tell me what reem did in those rounds.


Maybe in total strikes. Overeem landed much better and cleaner strikes in both rounds. Werdum's punches had zero power and were glancing at best.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Fabricio easily won round one. Rounds 2 and 3 were up for grabs. 

Butt-scooting aside, Werdrum out-struck Overeem in round 1. Noticeably.


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## footodors (Aug 26, 2007)

Uber 0 chance against top 5 UFC


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

What the **** did I just watch?


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

This fight was disappointing but Overeem won clear in my books. Werdum hurt himself by flopping to pull guard so much, if he tried to strike a bit, which he out struck Overeem a bit, I think he would have a better shot.

Pulling guard and getting tossed around looks bad to the judges, unless of course you can actually get him to the ground with you. I think what won the fight for Overeem, was octagon control and aggressiveness, and the main reason is the pulling guard by Werdum.

So disappointed with this fight though.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

G_Land said:


> we all lost here


Agree.

Looking forward to Josh/bigfoot in the final.

I'll bet everything I can on Silva over reem


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

I don't think you people understand how shitty those punches he was landing were. One of Overeem's knees to the liver is worth about 50 of those. Overeem was picking his shots to avoid gassing early he wasn't being hurt by that.


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## streetpunk08 (Jul 15, 2006)

I had it 29-28 Overeem. Neither guy looked good at all though. Anybody can have an off night but hypothetically if Overeem fought this way in the UFC forget Cain and JDS he would struggle to get by Roy Nelson. Both guys need to work on their cardio they both gassed pretty badly.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

[email protected]

I scored it 30 - 25 overeem. One of the most pathetic fights ive ever seen I lost all the respect I had for werdum. I wish we had a better ref like herb/big john would have been scored like 30-24.

Boo @ werdum :thumbsdown:

Decent showing for overeem, no respect for werdums striking did the only thing he could do against someone wanting to butt scoot and otherwise fight like a bitch.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

Ari said:


> What the **** did I just watch?


 
The pain will go away soon


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> Maybe in total strikes. Overeem landed much better and cleaner strikes in both rounds. Werdum's punches had zero power and were glancing at best.


Overeem landed maybe 4 or 5 clean shots all fight... The problem is even on weak glancing blows Werdum would pull guard...

Overeem is a over muscled power puncher and nothing more.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Fabricio easily won round one. Rounds 2 and 3 were up for grabs.
> 
> Butt-scooting aside, Werdrum out-struck Overeem in round 1. Noticeably.


agree.... at least werdum went and tried fighting to his opponents strengths and actually won some exchanges.... where as overeem wanted nothing of the ground game


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Come on, Werdum had zero power in his punches and just threw looping, wild punches. Alistair had a lot more precise and powerful punches.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Overeem literally did practically nothing for 3 rounds, he didn't even strike he just did nothing but posture. Say what you want but Werdum engaged Overeem standing and was getting the better. The only thing Overeem did better was wrestle but defending takedowns shouldn't win the fight.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

lol reem. 


Some elite striker. Get outstruck by Werdum for three rounds.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Rauno said:


> Come on, Werdum had zero power in his punches and just threw looping, wild punches. Alistair had a lot more precise and powerful punches.


All 3 of them?

Werdum's striking may not have been dangerous but he out landed Overeem like 10:1...


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Maybe in total strikes. Overeem landed much better and cleaner strikes in both rounds. Werdum's punches had zero power and were glancing at best.


the only time I saw substantial striking from overeem was round 2.

He might have landed some nice shots in 1 & 3, but enough to overcome getting punched in bunches while covering up and getting pushed around the cage? I think not.

In the end, both men just showed they aren't cut for top 5 UFC. Not a chance in hell in my opinion, I really think Antonio Silva should be the easy favorite to win the tourny at this point.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

osmium said:


> I don't think you people understand how shitty those punches he was landing were. One of Overeem's knees to the liver is worth about 50 of those. Overeem was picking his shots to avoid gassing early he wasn't being hurt by that.


Exactly, it's nonsense. As far as Overeem being "outstruck", and "would've been in trouble if Werdum had power"...really spoken from someone who has zero knowledge of the striking game. Alistair was taking and mostly blocking those punches deliberately to set up countering opportunities, to which Werdum responded to by butt scooting like a bitch.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

chosenFEW said:


> agree.... at least werdum went and tried fighting to his opponents strengths and actually won some exchanges.... where as overeem wanted nothing of the ground game


That's not quite fair. Anybody can drop their hands and get knocked out, BJJ is far more different.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Overeem literally did practically nothing for 3 rounds, he didn't even strike he just did nothing but posture. Say what you want but Werdum engaged Overeem standing and was getting the better. The only thing Overeem did better was wrestle but defending takedowns shouldn't win the fight.


Werdum shouldn't have pulled guard if he didn't have the gas to do anything with it. Pulling Overeem down on top of him and then laying there for a couple minutes is what lost him the fight.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

420atalon said:


> Overeem landed maybe 4 or 5 clean shots all fight... The problem is even on weak glancing blows Werdum would pull guard...
> 
> Overeem is a over muscled power puncher and nothing more.


And? He obviously was good enough to stop every single one of Werdum's takedown attempts.


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## Ruckus (Oct 2, 2009)

xeberus said:


> [email protected]
> 
> I scored it 30 - 25 overeem. One of the most pathetic fights ive ever seen I lost all the respect I had for werdum. I wish we had a better ref like herb/big john would have been scored like 30-24.
> 
> ...


Nice!!!


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> Exactly, it's nonsense. As far as Overeem being "outstruck", and "would've been in trouble if Werdum had power"...really spoken from someone who has zero knowledge of the striking game. Alistair was taking and mostly blocking those punches deliberately to set up countering opportunities, to which Werdum responded to by butt scooting like a bitch.


Truth.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Now THIS is a fight where PRIDE yellow cards would've been useful. Disgraceful showing from Werdum.


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

this is one of those fights where nobody wins. i did not expect it to go down this way at all. overeem gassed so fast, i cant believe that werdum threw more strikes, but it is what overeem likes to do-block and throw power in his counters.


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## Blitzz (Apr 13, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> And? He obviously was good enough to stop every single one of Werdum's takedown attempts.


Werdum had three successful takedowns.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Werdum and Overeem each had 3 take downs. TD attempts are irrelevant.


Lol @ nobody mentioning how bad Overeem was standing. Werdum could throw three powerful knees in the time it took Reem to throw one glancing knee, he easily outboxed Reem and Reem kept trying to defend like he had 12oz gloves on, even when Werdum's punches were coming right through. It was the dumbest shit I've seen in a long time.


If Werdum hadn't ducked and tried to pull guard on so many of Reem's punches it would have been a lot easier for everyone to see how ineffective Reem was standing.


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## Spic_D (Jan 2, 2011)

Roflcopter said:


> This. Pulling guard does not score.


Well Werdum outland him in the most part, and I get your point, pulling guard doesn't score if you don't make it, but standing there without doing anything else than tell your opponent to stand up doesn't either.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

I lost respect for both fighters. K1, STRIKEFORCE? Bah. they're both garbage.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

I thought Overeem's TDD looked great, but this was of course against Werdrum... BJJ guys aren't exactly known for their take downs, and even the commentators said they were telegraphed. Like I said, this Overeem would get demolished by the big dogs in the UFC, but I've seen enough of his fights to know he's better than this. Every fighter drops the ball now and again, even in victory. His next fight will be all the more telling after tonight.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

osmium said:


> I don't think you people understand how shitty those punches he was landing were. One of Overeem's knees to the liver is worth about 50 of those. Overeem was picking his shots to avoid gassing early he wasn't being hurt by that.


Lolz...sounds about right.



xeberus said:


> [email protected]
> 
> I scored it 30 - 25 overeem. One of the most pathetic fights ive ever seen I lost all the respect I had for werdum. I wish we had a better ref like herb/big john would have been scored like 30-24.
> 
> ...


It was pretty obvious neither really wanted to play each others' game although Werdum did throw some strikes albeit tentatively. 

Problem was there's no way Overeem can get off without leaving himself vulnerable. He was picking his shots very carefully...too much on the line. There was a few incidences where he usually kicks, knees, or throws a left hook where he opted to move in closer rather than throw a strike. He fought a very technical battle. Not much you can do against floppers; Thales Leites vs Anderson was the same. 

The Reem vs Bigfoot is gonna be real interesting. The Reem's gonna destroy em. Why? Cuz he's a fawking slow moving target. I expect The Reem to maul Bigfoot as payback for him mauling Fedor. Pick on someone your own size. 

Overeem's right. His 40lbs pounds of muscles came in handy when he sprawled and shucked Werdum aside...lolz!


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

And no. Overeem doesn't need to learn how to strike again. He fights the same way in K-1. Only difference is the other guy can't flop to his back anytime he lands a punch.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Are you people forgetting that Overeem was ontop of Werdum winning on the ground in all 3 rounds? It looks really ******* bad when you are constantly pulling guard and then you never win the grappling exchanges once it gets there. LOL at him not landing cleanly more than a handful of times. Learn to watch striking exchanges properly Werdum got hurt multiple times in the fight he gassed badly after a round and a half because of the uberknees to the liver not from flopping.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Reem has zero chance against Silva. It will be brutal.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Blitzz said:


> Werdum had three successful takedowns.


I counted one. I'm not sure where the hell Compustrike got those other two.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

osmium said:


> I don't think you people understand how shitty those punches he was landing were. One of Overeem's knees to the liver is worth about 50 of those. Overeem was picking his shots to avoid gassing early he wasn't being hurt by that.


LMAO @ this crock of BS. I don't think it works like that.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> Werdum and Overeem each had 3 take downs. TD attempts are irrelevant.
> 
> 
> Lol @ nobody mentioning how bad Overeem was standing. Werdum could throw three powerful knees in the time it took Reem to throw one glancing knee, he easily outboxed Reem and Reem kept trying to defend like he had 12oz gloves on, even when Werdum's punches were coming right through. It was the dumbest shit I've seen in a long time.
> ...


TD attempts are relevant because if a fighter shrugs them off, especially so many that Overeem did, it might be the deciding factor in a rather dull round.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Werdum won that fight. Horse shit call. I could agree with it if Reem did anything at all from the top but he didn't. Werdum was working for submissions while on bottom when he got space. Reem just laid on him. Werdum also outlanded him on the feet. Stupid **** judges.



> It was pretty obvious neither really wanted to play each others' game although Werdum did throw some strikes albeit tentatively.


No, just no. Charging in head long and throwing 3-10 strikes, grabbing his head and clinching, throwing 1-3 knees and then backing off is by no means "tenative." Werdum was the aggressor that entire fight.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> And no. Overeem doesn't need to learn how to strike again. He fights the same way in K-1. Only difference is the other guy can't flop to his back anytime he *dodges* a punch.


Fixed.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Overeem's striking was badly overated and Werdum came to flop on his ass overall crap fight and both won't be UFC champion.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> Werdum and Overeem each had 3 take downs. TD attempts are irrelevant.
> 
> 
> Lol @ nobody mentioning how bad Overeem was standing. Werdum could throw three powerful knees in the time it took Reem to throw one glancing knee, he easily outboxed Reem and Reem kept trying to defend like he had 12oz gloves on, even when Werdum's punches were coming right through. It was the dumbest shit I've seen in a long time.
> ...


Fixed.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> And no. Overeem doesn't need to learn how to strike again. He fights the same way in K-1. Only difference is the other guy can't flop to his back anytime he lands a punch.


K1 is a horrible way to measure a fighters striking ability. It is practically power punching... 

Any good striker with half a gas tank would beat Overeem in an MMA match.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

420atalon said:


> Werdum shouldn't have pulled guard if he didn't have the gas to do anything with it. Pulling Overeem down on top of him and then laying there for a couple minutes is what lost him the fight.


I was gonna respond but I'll let Trai do that....


TraMaI said:


> Werdum won that fight. Horse shit call. I could agree with it if Reem did anything at all from the top but he didn't. Werdum was working for submissions while on bottom when he got space. Reem just laid on him. Werdum also outlanded him on the feet. Stupid **** judges.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

I'm going to go forget this fight ever happened. Have fun fellas.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

420atalon said:


> K1 is a horrible way to measure a fighters striking ability. It is practically power punching...
> 
> Any good striker with half a gas tank would beat Overeem in an MMA match.


lol. I love the haters.

Also, I love how K1 is horrible way to gauge when MMA fights are with grappling gloves. THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE. Hur. :confused03:


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Fabricio Werdum, you should be ******* embarrassed. What an abysmal showing from that man.

Any ways, either way, it was disappointing from Reem which ever way you look at it. I fully agree with Osmium and Rofl, Overeem clearly landed the more significant and damaging strikes on the feet. HOW EVER. Werdum shouldn't have even landed those shitty glancing blows in the first place. But then Werdum made it so hard for Overeem to counter by just flopping to the ground any time he would throw one, pathetic.

As yourself guys. If Werdum emplyed that exact same tactic against any one of the top 5 UFCV HW's, wouldn't it just make them look bad too? He gave Overeem absolutely zero opportunities to counter by just flinging himself to the floor any time Overeem would engage.

Any ways, I don't think Overeem is any match for Cain, I don't think there is a single HW on the planet who can really challenge Velasquez, that man truly is in a league of his own, it's quite scary.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

He did already. Arlovsky looked like shit when he fought Werdum. Werdum is a grade A bitch.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

The next hype train to crash: Cain's. 

JDS steamrolls Velasquez and then outboxes Overeem to become supreme overlord of HW.

McKeever cries in the corner.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

http://blog.fightmetric.com/2011/06/overeem-vs-werdum-ii-official.html

Exactly as the fight should have been scored. Note the important comment at the top.

"Note: Overeem is not credited with successful takedowns because a takedown requires that the attempting fighter establish a ground-based advantageous position."

Being pulled into guard, not landing a single punch and not passing guard or attempting submissions should not have scored Overeem any points.

Werdum outlanded Overeem 14-7 and 24-16 in the 1st and 3rd rounds. 1st round should have been Werdum's for the striking but it looked bad with him constantly pulling guard. 3rd round outsruck and came close to a submission(20 seconds more and Overeem likely is forced to tap...


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> He did already. Arlovsky looked like shit when he fought Werdum. Werdum is a grade A bitch.


Quoted for truth.

Also at everyone saying how it would be bad if he did this in the ufc: he couldnt do that in the ufc herb/big john would give out warnings and take points like they were hot cakes for that crap.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Fabricio Werdum, you should be ******* embarrassed. What an abysmal showing from that man.
> 
> Any ways, either way, it was disappointing from Reem which ever way you look at it. I fully agree with Osmium and Rofl, Overeem clearly landed the more significant and damaging strikes on the feet. HOW EVER. Werdum shouldn't have even landed those shitty glancing blows in the first place. But then Werdum made it so hard for Overeem to counter by just flopping to the ground any time he would throw one, pathetic.
> 
> ...


Overeem should be ashamed of getting out struck by a shit striker. What Werdum did was no different than a wrestler (Oh say, GSP) striking and shooting in before he can get countered. And it's not like Werdum was just falling down. He was grabbing him and trying to take Reem with him. That's Overeem's fault for letting him back him up to the cage in the first place so he could get ahold of him. An "Elite" level striker like Overeem is should have some god damn footwork to avoid that kind of shit. Reem got beat.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

You guy's keep forgetting that this is is Reems fighting style, stand in front of his opponent, block the shots and counter. Alistair had more accurate, precise and powerful punches where Werdum was wildly swinging those weak punches that didn't do anything. Overeem shrug off 95% of Werdums takedowns, had the top position. Impossible he lost this fight.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Overeem won easily.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

[email protected] the "bitch" who beat Fedor. did you see that "bitch" kick overeems big steroid head in the 1st second of the fight?

Overeem is an overmuscled joke who couldn't beat Matt Mitrione:laugh:


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Too bad fightmetric is a joke.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

double please delete


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Canadian Psycho said:


> The next hype train to crash: Cain's.
> 
> JDS steamrolls Velasquez and then outboxes Overeem to become supreme overlord of HW.
> 
> McKeever cries in the corner.


I already challenged you to a $100 bet and you haven't responded. Have you pussied out? Bitch.

Werdum would have made any HW look bad or medicore employing that tactic, get ******* real.

Overeem will still demolish Big Foot, unless he decides to pull a Werdum and use the exact same tactic....

And Overeem would still demolish JDS, unless he also decided to pull a Werdum and flop to the floor any time Overeem tried to engage.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

oldfan said:


> [email protected] the "bitch" who beat Fedor. did you see that "bitch" kick overeems big steroid head in the 1st second of the fight?
> 
> Overeem is an overmuscled joke who couldn't beat Matt Mitrione:laugh:


Wouldn't go that far LOL


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

I have Werdum winning the fight 29-28. If overeem would have bothered to throw a few more punches, I would have given it to him. Overeem really didn't do anything of significance. The punch in first round that allgedlly rocked Werdum, obviously only hit the glove and was a ploy to pull Overeem in. But mma judges always give the fight to whoever is on top the longest for some reason. No matter who wins the decision neither looked good, and as GSP would say, "I was not impressed with your performance"


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

TraMaI said:


> Werdum won that fight. Horse shit call. I could agree with it if Reem did anything at all from the top but he didn't. Werdum was working for submissions while on bottom when he got space. Reem just laid on him. Werdum also outlanded him on the feet. Stupid **** judges.
> 
> 
> 
> No, just no. Charging in head long and throwing 3-10 strikes, grabbing his head and clinching, throwing 1-3 knees and then backing off is by no means "tenative." Werdum was the aggressor that entire fight.


What space? I didn't see him come close to getting a single submission. I saw him lay there and get punched in the face. He was working on sucking wind and running out the clock so he didn't get his faced smashed in not submissions. I fail to see how hitting a person with a pillow 50 times is better than hitting them with a sledgehammer 30 times also. Werdum landed one really solid knee and nothing else of value in that fight.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> lol. I love the haters.
> 
> Also, I love how K1 is horrible way to gauge when MMA fights are with grappling gloves. THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE. Hur. :confused03:


It does make sense, but is obviously beyond you...

With lighter gloves you can't just stand there and power punch back and forth relying on being the bigger stronger guy(what Overeem does...). You have to be at least a little technical and pick your opponents apart without leaving yourself open to damage.

3 minute rounds in K1 also allows the fighters to go for it without having to worry about gassing as much. Something Overeem did after throwing only a few punches...

As others mentioned Overeem was spending a lot of time just trying to cover up but it is ineffective with such small gloves. A better striker would have picked Overeem apart.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

xeberus said:


> Quoted for truth.
> 
> Also at everyone saying how it would be bad if he did this in the ufc: he couldnt do that in the ufc herb/big john would give out warnings and take points like they were hot cakes for that crap.


Amazing to me that Werdum was not penalized. He was clearly stalling.

Fucker wouldn't even stand up in a timely manner. This is kind of the irritating thing about forums like this. The incredible bias of some people, usually do to people feeling a fighter is overrated.

Even in the second round, when Werdum is taking 10 minutes to stand up, all I hear is about how tired Overeem is and how bad he looks. It's very odd.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

TraMaI said:


> Werdum won that fight. Horse shit call. I could agree with it if Reem did anything at all from the top but he didn't. Werdum was working for submissions while on bottom when he got space. Reem just laid on him. Werdum also outlanded him on the feet. Stupid **** judges.
> 
> 
> 
> No, just no. Charging in head long and throwing 3-10 strikes, grabbing his head and clinching, throwing 1-3 knees and then backing off is by no means "tenative." *Werdum was the aggressor that entire fight*.


Having trouble with that one. "IF" Werdum engaged without flopping I would have gave it to him, of course he more than likely would have been countered with an Ubereem knee, left hook, uppercut, etc. Werdum struck, flopped, repeat x 10. You tell me what fighter can do anything. Overeem wasn't going to fall into the same trap as Fedor. It's a weak cat n mouse game. Once, twice, and even three times, but flopping 10+ times...cmon! That was fawking weak and I'm actually a fan of Werdum since his days of fighting in Rumble In The Jungle in Brazil. He was ultra agressive and a lot better shape. 

This was a case of Werdum trying to "outsmart" his opponent. The UFC would have fired him again sadly. Werdum is more than capable on the feet. Had he tried striking then get clipped and fall...I'd understand. Everytime he would simply flop w/o allowing Alistair any opportunity to counter...fawk that's annoying. 

Anyways The Reem will take out Antonio Silva next. Take the Grand Prix champ and immediately challenge Cain or JDS. You guys must not really understand striking if you're dissing Overeem. You might as well diss Anderson Silva (Thales, Maia) too while you're at it. 

*NOTE* Overeem already has a history against Werdum. You REALLY think he wants to go to the ground again and get submitted?


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> I already challenged you to a $100 bet and you haven't responded. Have you pussied out?
> 
> Werdum would have amde any HW look bad or medicore emplying that tactic, get ******* real.
> 
> ...


lol, even in the face of such a poor performance, you still make these blind claims. JDS turns Carwin into hamburger in what was an excellent performance and display of technique, and you bitch him out for not finishing. Overeem looks like an amateur tonight in every way possible, and you'll defend him until your dying breath. You blind, biased fool. Overeem had a bad night. Admit it, accept it, and move on to the next one. 

I don't gamble. So I won't be betting real money. The fact that I'll be able to wave it in your face is satisfaction enough for me. And wave I shall. JDS will beat Cain, and if need be, he'll go on to light up Overeem like a Christmas tree.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

420atalon said:


> It does make sense, but is obviously beyond you...
> 
> With lighter gloves you can't just stand there and power punch back and forth relying on being the bigger stronger guy(what Overeem does...). You have to be at least a little technical and pick your opponents apart without leaving yourself open to damage.
> 
> ...


What a joke post. Part of the reason a lot of ADHD riddle fans think sports like boxing and K1 are boring is because the level of technique in it is conducive to a lot of decisions. In MMA, there's no defense because you can't block well with those little gloves, and they are smaller so they hurt more. MMA produces much bigger knockouts than both sports, problem being the sport is riddled with unskilled cowards who refuse to punch, and the other half is a bunch of barroom brawlers who just slug it out with their shit technique.



No_Mercy said:


> Having trouble with that one. "IF" Werdum engaged without flopping I would have gave it to him, of course he more than likely would have been countered with an Ubereem knee, left hook, uppercut, etc. Werdum struck, flopped, repeat x 10. You tell me what fighter can do anything. Overeem wasn't going to fall into the same trap as Fedor. It's a weak cat n mouse game. Once, twice, and even three times, but flopping 10+ times...cmon! That was fawking weak and I'm actually a fan of Werdum since his days of fighting in Rumble In The Jungle in Brazil. He was ultra agressive and a lot better shape.
> 
> This was a case of Werdum trying to "outsmart" his opponent. The UFC would have fired him again sadly. Werdum is more than capable on the feet. Had he tried striking then get clipped and fall...I'd understand. Everytime he would simply flop w/o allowing Alistair any opportunity to counter...fawk that's annoying.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about? This board flames Anderson for the Thales fight all the time. Some of them are just THAT uneducated.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Anderson feared Thales. Clear as day, that.

Disclaimer - I'm baiting Roflcopter


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Werdum was being a jackass the entire fighter, but sadly he could have won that fight easily. I actually taught he hurted reem a few times in that fight. But the dumbass pulled guard or just dropped every time he was hitting reem with a furry.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Clearly. Thales had a devastating punch that no one knew about. Anderson did though.



marcthegame said:


> Werdum was being a jackass the entire fighter, but sadly he could have won that fight easily. I actually taught he hurted reem a few times in that fight. But the dumbass pulled guard or just dropped every time he was hitting reem with a furry.



lol...he wasn't even remotely bothered. No one knew that more than Werdum, also.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

oldfan said:


> [email protected] the "bitch" who beat Fedor. did you see that "bitch" kick overeems big steroid head in the 1st second of the fight?
> 
> Overeem is an overmuscled joke who couldn't beat Matt Mitrione:laugh:


Werdum had the same tactic against Fedor , just Fedor jumped into his guard.

The fight would have looked similar to tonights had he not done that.




> Anderson feared Thales. Clear as day, that.
> 
> Disclaimer - I'm baiting Roflcopter


__________________

I wouldnt bait Silva fans they get way to agitated and take it personal.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Funny how Overeem gets "exposed" for not finishing a JJ guy who constantly butt flopped and for gassing despite Anderson doing the same and Carwin struggling to breath in his post fight interviews before the Brock fight....

Carwin is for real though right


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> problem being the sport is riddled with unskilled cowards who refuse to punch, and the other half is a bunch of barroom brawlers who just slug it out with their shit technique


why are you here?


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

I'm actually glad this happened. Now idiots will start betting on Bigfoot and the line for Overeem will be inflated. Time to clean up.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

marcthegame said:


> Werdum was being a jackass the entire fighter, but sadly he could have won that fight easily. I actually taught he hurted reem a few times in that fight. But the dumbass pulled guard or just dropped every time he was hitting reem with a furry.


Yeah I don't think Werdum took this fight serious. His gas tank is usually much better then this and even when he pulled guard in the 1st round he made no attempt to get wrist control or lock his guard to keep Overeem down. He pretty much let him keep standing back up just so he could pull guard again. 

Stupid game plan that looks bad in the judges eyes especially since they can't see every punch etc clearly to know if it actually hurt or not.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Canadian Psycho said:


> lol, even in the face of such a poor performance, you still make these blind claims. JDS turns Carwin into hamburger in what was an excellent performance and display of technique, and you bitch him out for not finishing. Overeem looks like an amateur tonight in every way possible, and you'll defend him until your dying breath. You blind, biased fool. Overeem had a bad night. Admit it, accept it, and move on to the next one.
> 
> I don't gamble. So I won't be betting real money. The fact that I'll be able to wave it in your face is satisfaction enough for me. And wave I shall. JDS will beat Cain, and if need be, he'll go on to light up Overeem like a Christmas tree.


You're a joke. You don't gamble, neither do I. You made this personal in one of your other silly posts post carwin/jds and I called you out on a $100 bet. Forget real money then. If Cain wins, you **** off from this forum for good, how about that? Or will you ***** out of that one too?!

You're awful at calling MMA fights and you know it. All I needed was to read your posts about how Randy Couture was going to beat Lyoto Machida..... You're too biased of a fan to accurately make any kind of fight prediction.

I already said I wasn't impressed with Overeems performance. His cardio and him gassing out in the interview with Gus was embarrassing, he could barley breathe......

Where did I call JDS a bitch? Don't make up nonsense. I said the Carwin fight was a joke and that I thought it was very weak how JDS played it safe (which he admitted in an interview on camera; "I played it safe against Carwin".

Carwin is a joke of an MMA fighter and he shouldn't have lasted any more than two rounds against jds. Alistair would have KO'd Shane within two and he will KO JDS within two, unless of course, they both decide to pull a Werdum and flop to the ground any time he actually throws a strike.

You couldn't call a fight if your life depended on it.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

osmium said:


> What space? I didn't see him come close to getting a single submission. I saw him lay there and get punched in the face. He was working on sucking wind and running out the clock so he didn't get his faced smashed in not submissions. I fail to see how hitting a person with a pillow 50 times is better than hitting them with a sledgehammer 30 times also. Werdum landed one really solid knee and nothing else of value in that fight.


I fail to see how some members here think they can assume or make assumptions on the power of a strike while watching an MMA fight on television or your computer...

Clearly you and a few other people aren't fit for judging fights.

How exactly did you determine the strength of both men's strikes? I heard strikes landing from both men and I saw both men get hurt by strikes. So enlighten me to how you came to the conclusion that werdum was throwing pillows?

I'm not denying that Overeem landed some stronger shots but both men ate knees and got tagged. And for every big knee or couple of right hooks that overeem landed he sure ate a lot of strikes in the 1st and 3rd.

Maybe you should show me in the Judging criteria where it says "P.S. if the guy is throwing what seem to be pillow fists in YOUR OPINION, then score him less."


----------



## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> lol...he wasn't even remotely bothered. No one knew that more than Werdum, also.


Yeah usually when youre not bothered by an inferior striker you back up after being hit and cover up on the cage. 

Werdum won that fight in every stretch of the imagination. Judges calls are getting worse and worse.


----------



## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

guy incognito said:


> Funny how Overeem gets "exposed" for not finishing a JJ guy who constantly butt flopped and for gassing despite Anderson doing the same and Carwin struggling to breath in his post fight interviews before the Brock fight....
> 
> Carwin is for real though right


Silva vs Leites was not even comparable to this for the simple fact that Silva was picking Leites apart on the feet where as in this fight Werdum was actually getting the better of most of the exchanges...


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

The biggest lesson this fight taught us is that eloquent dutchmen>russian hillbillies.



sNuFf_rEaLiTy said:


> I fail to see how some members here think they can assume or make assumptions on the power of a strike while watching an MMA fight on television or your computer...
> 
> Clearly you and a few other people aren't fit for judging fights.
> 
> ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_anatomy


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Terror Kovenant said:


> Yeah usually when youre not bothered by an inferior striker you back up after being hit and cover up on the cage.
> 
> Werdum won that fight in every stretch of the imagination. Judges calls are getting worse and worse.


You haven't a clue. Try watching some fights. Start with some K-1 actually.


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## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> You haven't a clue. Try watching some fights. Start with some K-1 actually.


Solid debating skills.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Alright guys, keep it civil in here.

People are starting to get heated, just relax before it reaches any sort of bad level.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

osmium said:


> The biggest lesson this fight taught us is that eloquent dutchmen>russian hillbillies.


:laugh::laugh:but < PNW mythological creatures.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

I'm almost certain UFC will introduce some sort of Yellow card or purse reduction. They fired Thales, Kalib, and others who refused to engage. Flopping a couple of times when you'r "badly hurt" is one thing, but not in the first fawking minute of the fight then continuously throughout the rest of the match. 

Oh wellz...at least he won and Werdum is gonna get an earful. Very weak stuff. 

Pro picks. Listen to what Bas has to say. The Reem is the real deal. He did what he had to do to win and that was to fight smart and pick his shots carefully albeit in a much tamer manner. He aint no Jon Fitch, The Reem puts away his opponents as long as they stand and fight.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

How the hell would u bring silva in this post...silva still was killing leities, there was anywhere in that fight where u could have said o leities may win this. That fight was over as soon as i herd "its dark and hell is hot, anit no sunshine."


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

sNuFf_rEaLiTy said:


> I fail to see how some members here think they can assume or make assumptions on the power of a strike while watching an MMA fight on television or your computer...
> 
> Clearly you and a few other people aren't fit for judging fights.
> 
> ...


Nelson Hamilton 29-28 Overeem
Kerry Hatley 30-27 Overeem
Cecil Peoples 30-27 Overeem

MEDIA SCORES
Ben Fowlkes (MMAFighting.com) 30-28	Overeem
Chris Nelson (Sherdog.com) 29-28	Overeem
Jordan Breen (Sherdog.com) 30-27	Overeem
TJ DeSantis (Sherdog.com) 30-27	Overeem
FightMetric.com 28-29	Werdum
MMAWeekly.com 30-28	Overeem
MMA Junkie 29-28 Overeem



Look at all of us scrub idiots who know nothing of the sport. Except that joke of a site Fightmetric.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Ugly fight but Overeem clearly won.

If your opponent hits you and you fall to the ground repeatedly, whether to pull guard or not, it's scored as a knockdown. Werdum succeeded in stalling and making this an ugly fight while Overeem succeeded in landing the most damaging blows or controlling the fight via top position.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

Terror Kovenant said:


> Yeah usually when youre not bothered by an inferior striker you back up after being hit and cover up on the cage.
> 
> *Werdum won that fight in every stretch of the imagination*. Judges calls are getting worse and worse.


LMAO!

The judges got that right... lets see now...
Clean Strikes : lets just give this Werdum for ya
Effective Grappling : NO ONE
Octagon Control : Reem
Effective Aggressiveness : Reem

Thats the case for every round, Werdum loses every round even if we give the 'clean strikes' to Werdum every single time.

You simply cannot (and should not) win rounds by flopping to your back... he took a risk and hoped Reem would follow him, his gamble FAILED.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

No_Mercy said:


> I'm almost certain UFC will introduce some sort of Yellow card or purse reduction. They fired Thales, Kalib, and others who refused to engage. Flopping a couple of times when you'r "badly hurt" is one thing, but not in the first fawking minute of the fight then continuously throughout the rest of the match.
> 
> Oh wellz...at least he won and Werdum is gonna get an earful. Very weak stuff.
> 
> Pro picks. Listen to what Bas has to say. The Reem is the real deal. He did what he had to do to win and that was to fight smart and pick his shots carefully albeit in a much tamer manner. He aint no Jon Fitch, The Reem puts away his opponents as long as they stand and fight.


There only appears to be around three or four memebers on this forum that actually understand what happened in that fight.

As I said earlier.

IF WERDUM HAD ENFORCED THAT EXACT SAME GAME PLAN AGAINST ANY UFC TOP 5 HW, IT WOULD HAVE LOOKED EXACTLY THE SAME. GO AND WATCH THE K-1 FIGHT BETWEEN SHINYA AOKI AND NAGASHMA.

You guys think Junior Dos Santos is going to flop to the ground like that everytime he engages with Overeem and the reem fires back?!!!!

Honestly, some of these posts are beyond ridiculous.


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Terror Kovenant said:


> Solid debating skills.


There is no debate, it's like discussing Calculus with someone who hasn't even taken Algebra. It is absurd and shows a complete lack of knowledge of striking in any form. And to make it even better, it was done in the great form of sarcasm.

Maybe one day you will understand basic countering and striking styles, but until then, leave the sarcasm to the pros.




attention said:


> LMAO!
> 
> The judges got that right... lets see now...
> Clean Strikes : lets just give this Werdum for ya
> ...


Overeem clearly was the more effective grappler. He stuffed all but one of Werdum's takedowns(got up immediately) and tossed Werdum to the floor multiple times.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> Nelson Hamilton 29-28 Overeem
> Kerry Hatley 30-27 Overeem
> Cecil Peoples 30-27 Overeem
> 
> ...


Most of the common trolls on shitdogs forum are giving it to werdum. I'd try to explain my side here.. there I just let it go. 

Although having cecil peoples on my side.. Can we just erase his name from that? I mean who gives a shit what cecil peoples thinks anyways?


----------



## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

worst main event so far this year. that fight almost ruined the card. i hope it was just werdums fault but they both gassed in the first so i cant be sure.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

xeberus said:


> Most of the common trolls on shitdogs forum are giving it to werdum. I'd try to explain my side here.. there I just let it go.
> 
> *Although having cecil peoples on my side.. Can we just erase his name from that? I mean who gives a shit what cecil peoples thinks anyways?*


I feel the same. Almost like it invalidates my opinion. :laugh:


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Nelson Hamilton 29-28 Overeem
> Kerry Hatley 30-27 Overeem
> Cecil Peoples 30-27 Overeem
> 
> ...


those scores have nothing to do with my question. 

I don't think it was the power of the shots that won overeem the fights on all these scorecards. I would bet that it had to do with the fact that werdum kept trying to pull guard and getting tossed around. Would you deny that that is more probable than all those people who scored the fight going "Yeah, well Werdum's strikes were as hard as pillows, I'm marking it for Overeem."

as for osmium bringing up Physics and Anatomy...That's all well and good but apply it to the situation. Explain to me how Overeem's knees and punches worked physics into his favor and damaged Werdum's anatomy moreso than the other way around.

here's one if you want to go the sophisticated route :thumb02:

ac·cu·mu·late
   [uh-kyoo-myuh-leyt] Show IPA verb, -lat·ed, -lat·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1.
to gather or collect, often in gradual degrees; heap up: to accumulate wealth.
–verb (used without object)
2.
to gather into a heap, mass, cover, etc.; form a steadily increasing quantity: Snow accumulated in the driveway. His debts kept on accumulating.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

sNuFf_rEaLiTy said:


> I fail to see how some members here think they can assume or make assumptions on the power of a strike while watching an MMA fight on television or your computer...
> 
> Clearly you and a few other people aren't fit for judging fights.
> 
> ...


Don't usually get into other peoples' discussions. But Overeem has landed the same power shots and KOed people purely on technique and of course his new found mutant strength. From a judging perspective a "shot is a shot," but from another point of view an Ubereem left hook or knee is the "equivalent" to multiple shots from another fighter. The Reem is just that powerful. 



marcthegame said:


> How the hell would u bring silva in this post...silva still was killing leities, there was anywhere in that fight where u could have said o leities may win this. That fight was over as soon as i herd "its dark and hell is hot, anit no sunshine."


More or less the fact that both BJJ fighters opted to flop rather than engage. Werdum obviously was fearful of his striking. This reminds me of guerilla warfare. How can you hit what you can't see. He just shrugged it off and did what he had to do to win; fight safe. There's now way he wanted to get submitted again by the same opponent.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

No_Mercy said:


>



^^^one day you'll all learn to appreciate Mitrione. He just called the tourney right there.

After Overate gets mauled by Bigfoot I hope and pray that Dana gives him a shot in the UFC anyway and gives him to Meathead.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

No_Mercy said:


> Don't usually get into other peoples' discussions. But Overeem has landed the same power shots and KOed people purely on technique and of course his new found mutant strength. From a judging perspective a "shot is a shot," but from another point of view an Ubereem left hook or knee is the "equivalent" to multiple shots from another fighter. The Reem is just that powerful.


when judging a fight, I would assume a fighter is a fighter and a strike is a strike.

To go "well that was an overeem bomb" seems a bit bias.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

oldfan said:


> ^^^one day you'll all learn to appreciate Mitrione. He just called the tourney right there.
> 
> After Overate gets mauled by Bigfoot I hope and pray that Dana gives him a shot in the UFC anyway and gives him to Meathead.


Right, like Todd Duffee was going to KO Overeem too? I don't forget.....

I really, really can't wait for Overeem vs Big Foot.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Werdum laying on his back in the 1st minute of the fight begging Overeem to come to the ground was sad. It was really a weird fight that was virtually impossible to properly judge since MMA scoring is so diverse and flawed. IMO Overeem still won.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Even though I had Werdum winning, I can see how you give rounds 1 and 2 to Overeem. The problem I have with Overeem is that Werdum wasn't just flopping to the floor. There were times Overeem was just standing there in range cocked and ready to throw. I was yelling for him to let a few punches go. I understand why Overeem didn't engage on the ground, but I am baffled on why he didn't engage on the feet. I know everyone's talking about Overeem vs Bigfoot, but does anyone notice that Barnett has an easier road to the finals and looked pretty good tonight?


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> Right, like Todd Duffee was going to KO Overeem too? I don't forget.....
> 
> I really, really can't wait for Overeem vs Big Foot.


Exactly like I said, the haters are going to blow up the line and make Overeem super easy money. It's going to be great. Overeem will flatten Silva. Silva at least doesn't fight like a bitch.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

I honestly gonna say werdum did not take this fight serious. In his mind he already whooped reem and just came back from beating one of the greatest ever. I think he just fighter he could go in there and submit reem like he did before.

I still think reem is the best hw in the world right now...he has the gold to prove it and has not lost in a while.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Right, like Todd Duffee was going to KO Overeem too? I don't forget.....
> 
> I really, really can't wait for Overeem vs Big Foot.


I didn't say he would I just got caught up in the wonder of it all. what a story book opportunity. what a shit ending. :shame02:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

sNuFf_rEaLiTy said:


> when judging a fight, I would assume a fighter is a fighter and a strike is a strike.
> 
> To go "well that was an overeem bomb" seems a bit bias.


That makes zero sense and has never been the case in boxing, kickboxing, or MMA. Every strike is weighted. 

Again, here is some homework for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_anatomy



rockybalboa25 said:


> Even though I had Werdum winning, I can see how you give rounds 1 and 2 to Overeem. The problem I have with Overeem is that Werdum wasn't just flopping to the floor. There were times Overeem was just standing there in range cocked and ready to throw. I was yelling for him to let a few punches go. I understand why Overeem didn't engage on the ground, but I am baffled on why he didn't engage on the feet. I know everyone's talking about Overeem vs Bigfoot, but does anyone notice that Barnett has an easier road to the finals and looked pretty good tonight?


Overeem looked better against Brett "The Can" Rogers than Barnett did.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

oldfan said:


> ^^^one day you'll all learn to appreciate Mitrione. He just called the tourney right there.
> 
> After Overate gets mauled by Bigfoot I hope and pray that Dana gives him a shot in the UFC anyway and gives him to Meathead.


After surveying the Grand Prix I actually think SF has the best HWs. If they had a grand prix incorporating the UFC HW roster it would be nutz...absolutely nutz! 

Barnett is very good ONLY if he can get you to the ground. He lost to Crocop twice which shows that. I'm still going with The Reem. 

Sergei vs Barnett is gonna be very interesting along with Big Foot and Alistair. What's interesting was I was never truly a fan of his until the transformation. He's a battle scarred fighter who's been KOed many times yet he's been able to rebound and become champ in Dream, SF, and in K-1 which makes him the most improved MMA fighter in my books. If I can change my opinion maybe you guys can as well. The Reem is highly technical for a HW. He doesn't throw random strikes which makes him pretty unique. JDS has better boxing, but Overeem has better striking overall. That would be a very interesting matchup as well. Man, too many to potential fights.


----------



## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

osmium said:


> That makes zero sense and has never been the case in boxing, kickboxing, or MMA. Every strike is weighted.
> 
> Again, here is some homework for you.
> 
> ...


it makes no sense to say that one shouldn't judge a fighter's strikes more significantly due to his name and past fights? 

Sure every strike is weighted, but so is volume. I fail to see enough significantly more damaging strikes landed to werdum to counter the volume of strikes that werdum landed in rounds 1 and 3.

And I'm sorry but your argument that werdum was throwing pillow fists doesn't hold much weight IMO. I don't see where you're even coming to that conclusion.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

osmium said:


> That makes zero sense and has never been the case in boxing, kickboxing, or MMA. Every strike is weighted.
> 
> Again, here is some homework for you.
> 
> ...


There is a little problem with your logic. That means a small guy can almost never out strike a bigger guy. That means a judge has to look at a guy and say. He looks big and strong 1 of his punches equal 4 of the other guy's. Your handicapping the fight for the larger man. I think hard strikes can be told easier cage side by reaction of the fighter who got hit and watching the fighter as he throws, but just because a fighter appears able to throw hard strikes doesn't mean he out struck his opponent if he lands a few.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

No_Mercy said:


> After surveying the Grand Prix I actually think SF has the best HWs. If they had a grand prix incorporating the UFC HW roster it would be nutz...absolutely nutz!
> 
> Barnett is very good ONLY if he can get you to the ground. *He lost to Crocop twice which shows that*. I'm still going with The Reem.
> 
> Sergei vs Barnett is gonna be very interesting along with Big Foot and Alistair. What's interesting was I was never truly a fan of his until the transformation. He's a battle scarred fighter who's been KOed many times yet he's been able to rebound and become champ in Dream, SF, and in K-1 which makes him the most improved MMA fighter in my books. If I can change my opinion maybe you guys can as well. The Reem is highly technical for a HW. He doesn't throw random strikes which makes him pretty unique. JDS has better boxing, but Overeem has better striking overall. That would be a very interesting matchup as well. Man, too many to potential fights.


Well... you really can't hold this one against him. while it lasted he outstruck the *** out crocop then tapped because of a dislocated somethingorother


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> There is a little problem with your logic. That means a small guy can almost never out strike a bigger guy. That means a judge has to look at a guy and say. He looks big and strong 1 of his punches equal 4 of the other guy's. Your handicapping the fight for the larger man. I think hard strikes can be told easier cage side by reaction of the fighter who got hit and watching the fighter as he throws, but just because a fighter appears able to throw hard strikes doesn't mean he out struck his opponent if he lands a few.


Small guys outstrike big guys all the time. Floyd Mayweather is my favourite boxer ever and he's destroyed guys that were bigger than him. Mainly because he actually has some oomph on his punches. It had nothing to do with size, Overeem has much more force on his punches than Werdum. Werdum wasn't even moving his gloves with his punches, let alone doing something significant like snapping Overeem's head back.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> There is a little problem with your logic. That means a small guy can almost never out strike a bigger guy. That means a judge has to look at a guy and say. He looks big and strong 1 of his punches equal 4 of the other guy's. Your handicapping the fight for the larger man. I think hard strikes can be told easier cage side by reaction of the fighter who got hit and watching the fighter as he throws, but just because a fighter appears able to throw hard strikes doesn't mean he out struck his opponent if he lands a few.


What about being able to analyze the speed, technique, solidness of impact, visual damage queues, and area of the human body hit do you people not understand? It isn't that hard to judge damage in striking people have been doing it successfully for around a hundred years.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Werdum was throwing like a desperate idiot, praying that he would some how catch overeem with a blow and praying that in the process he wouldn't get brutally KO'd by a counter. Every time he started striking, he was petrified and then any time Alistair actually threw some thing back, it was flop to the ground time. I had disturbing images of Aoki vs Nagashima round one flashing through my mind the entire fight.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

oldfan said:


> Well... you really can't hold this one against him. while it lasted he outstruck the *** out crocop then tapped because of a dislocated somethingorother


For some reason I thought you'd bring that up...heh...heh. It's been awhile, but if I remember correctly it was a elbow/shoulder lock..."I think." Anyways Barnett has to take you to the ground. I'm not sure he can against Alistair. I predict a bloody fight between him and Sergei though. 

As for judging criteria I really believe the 0 takedowns executed by Werdum hurt him big time along with the few dozen flops. That really overshadowed his exchanges. Even though Werdum pulled guard the judges probably viewed it as Overeem gaining top position which technically it is thus scoring points for Octagon control. Also Alistair was moving forward. This kinda reminded me of the Lyoto and Rampage fight. Rampage did NOT land anything, but he won still. I have no problems with it so it's time to move on. :thumbsup:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Crocop is 3-0 against Barnett not 2-0.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Why is Osmium still in red?!


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

RIVAL reps for something like 1 million. How? I have no idea, but pretty much anyone who gets negged by him is permanently red. It is also how you see guys with like 400 posts that are World Renowned in rep level.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> RIVAL reps for something like 1 million. How? I have no idea, but pretty much anyone who gets negged by him is permanently red. It is also how you see guys with like 400 posts that are World Renowned in rep level.


It was more like 2 million, I am at around -575k now.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

What is the post for MW?


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

osmium said:


> Crocop is 3-0 against Barnett not 2-0.


You're right...I was making a point to Oldfan that Barnett has excellent top control, but if he can't get you down then it's tough for em. Either way he's a pretty under rated fighter. The roids and I guess the way he conducts himself has overshadowed his abilities.

Tell you the truth any one of the HW could win; Overeem, Werdum, Big Foot, Fedor, and Barnett. Unfortunately Werdum and Fedor are out now. Fedor is clearly undersized. He'd wreck shop at LHW imo.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

marcthegame said:


> What is the post for MW?


I believe its what people call 'hitting the juice'


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> Small guys outstrike big guys all the time. Floyd Mayweather is my favourite boxer ever and he's destroyed guys that were bigger than him. Mainly because he actually has some oomph on his punches. It had nothing to do with size, Overeem has much more force on his punches than Werdum. Werdum wasn't even moving his gloves with his punches, let alone doing something significant like snapping Overeem's head back.


Floyd Mayweather is the opposite of the argument that you are trying to make. Guys like De la Hoya and Castillo landed the harder punches, but Floyd landed more punches and won. Floyd doesn't hit hard, which is one he finished one guy in the past five years. Overeem didn't snap Werdum's head back either. There was no real evidence of Werdum being hurt by his punches. You could say he fell down, but he fell down when he didn't get hit too. That was his ridiculous plan. Look like I said I don't have a problem giving the fight to Overeem; it was close, and Werdum did some really dumb things to worsen his case. I just don't see how Overeem dominated him on the feet. If anything I thought Overeem's takedowns and top control won him the fight.

ps anyone know where you can watch the post-fight press conference?


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

attention said:


> I believe its what people call 'hitting the juice'


ya we need to get on that, i have been p4p at ww for a while ...gotta move up.


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

osmium said:


> What about being able to analyze the speed, technique, solidness of impact, visual damage queues, and area of the human body hit do you people not understand? It isn't that hard to judge damage in striking people have been doing it successfully for around a hundred years.


osmium, your argument is basically "well he hit him harder."

I could see where you're going with your argument if this fight was in the vein of let's say....Quarry vs Credeur. In that fight Credeur was outstriking Quarry by a pretty substantial margin but Quarry would hit Credeur with a bomb that rocked and dropped him. No strikes that Overeem through had that type of impact on the fight.

To be blunt, no fighter's striking power was substantial in this fight. Not Overeem's and not Werdum's. You can say Overeem's strikes were stronger, but that's a matter of opinion and what effect did it really have on the fight? No power strikes had an effect on this fight.

Since no one's power tipped the scales of battle. The only logical thing to do is revert to volume of strikes. Regardless of all the butt scooting, being tossed around and delaying of action (Which definitely, easily, and agreeably lost werdum the fight) there's no doubt that Werdum was outstriking Overeem in rd. 1 and 3.

not that i really give that much of a shit, but that's my two cents.


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## SerJ (Sep 17, 2009)

LOL! Why is everyone arguing who won the fight? You should all arguing who lost this fight! Terrible performance from both fighters!


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Floyd Mayweather is the opposite of the argument that you are trying to make. Guys like De la Hoya and Castillo landed the harder punches, but Floyd landed more punches and won. Floyd doesn't hit hard, which is one he finished one guy in the past five years. Overeem didn't snap Werdum's head back either. There was no real evidence of Werdum being hurt by his punches. You could say he fell down, but he fell down when he didn't get hit too. That was his ridiculous plan. Look like I said I don't have a problem giving the fight to Overeem; it was close, and Werdum did some really dumb things to worsen his case. I just don't see how Overeem dominated him on the feet. If anything I thought Overeem's takedowns and top control won him the fight.
> 
> ps anyone know where you can watch the post-fight press conference?


Uh, no. Watch his fights with guys like Corrales, N'Dou, Mosely, Baldomir, Gatti. etc.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> Uh, no. Watch his fights with guys like Corrales, N'Dou, Mosely, Baldomir, Gatti. etc.


I'll give you Corrales (10 years ago) and N'dou (8 years ago), and Gatti (who should have never been in the same ring). Baldomir and Mosley weren't hit harder: they didn't hit Floyd at all. Mosley doesn't really fight back anymore.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> Nelson Hamilton 29-28 Overeem
> Kerry Hatley 30-27 Overeem
> Cecil Peoples 30-27 Overeem
> 
> ...



Nice bias homie. 

Josh Gross: 29-28 Werdum
Jason "Mayhem" Miller: Werdum
MMASpot.net: Werdum
Steve Cofield (ESPN MMA Radio Host/Cagewriter): 29-28 Werdum


All of those guys must be morons too, right?


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

TraMaI said:


> Nice bias homie.
> 
> Josh Gross: 29-28 Werdum
> Jason "Mayhem" Miller: Werdum
> ...


You just called him out on bias and then used Mayhem who is one of Werdums training partners.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

guy incognito said:


> You just called him out on bias and then used Mayhem who is one of Werdums training partners.


Do Josh Gross and Steve Cofield train with him too?


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Lousy effort from both men. Werdum needs to learn how to make a fight go where he wants it, instead of lying on his back and asking his opponent to jump in his guard.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

I don't think Werdum won. He might have done more damage (although I'm not really convinced of that, even though he landed more) but he completely screwed the pooch on aggression and octagon control by collapsing to his back every fifteen seconds and begging overeem to jump into his guard. He wasted a ton of time in this fight.










I also give overeem the effective grappling since he stuffed most of werdum's takedowns and in fact threw werdum to the ground a few times and controlled the top position most of the time when he did go to the ground, and in the absence of any serious sub attempts (barring the pointless leg lock in the third) that gives overeem the edge under that criteria as well.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

vandalian said:


> Lousy effort from both men. Werdum needs to learn how to make a fight go where he wants it, instead of lying on his back and asking his opponent to jump in his guard.


Well if he really committed on takedown attempts Overeem would have eventually collapsed his face into his brain with a knee. Werdum isn't an idiot he didn't want his brain melted again.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Do Josh Gross and Steve Cofield train with him too?


do the 7 people who ROTFCOPTER listed train with Overeem?


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

guy incognito said:


> do the 7 people who ROTFCOPTER listed train with Overeem?


HE was basically saying that only idiots thought Werdum won. He simply pointed out there were some people who understand mma that disagreed.


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## footodors (Aug 26, 2007)

Can't believe how many times uber got tagged. Doesn't seem to have the best defense.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

footodors said:


> Can't believe how many times uber got tagged. Doesn't seem to have the best defense.


Anderson was getting outstruck by maia in the later rounds.


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## METALLICA_RULES (Feb 12, 2011)

So did Overeem win this fight?


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

TraMaI said:


> Nice bias homie.
> 
> Josh Gross: 29-28 Werdum
> Jason "Mayhem" Miller: Werdum
> ...


Who are those guys? 

I mean I know miller, but they train together.. I'd expect miller to side with werdum even if he had got knocked out cold. 

So we have 2 guys whom I've never seen, heard or know anything about credibility wise. A website that has a forum the tenth the size (and probably quality  ) and one of his training partners..

VS like over half a dozen well known, respected figures in the mma community. Except cecil peoples.. Goddamn that cecil peoples.




METALLICA_RULES said:


> So did Overeem win this fight?


Yea. And before I came on here I thought it was one of the most pathetic and one sided fights I'd seen in some time.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Werdum hit Overeem more but that isn't the whole story in a fight, for the most part. The big factor in what lost Werdum the fight is the fact that he was always dropping down and hoping Overeem would follow him to the ground.

I think what won Overeem the fight is octagon control/agression. Don't know how you can win rounds by flopping down 6 times, not to mention that whenever Overeem hit him with a relative power shot, he would drop down....

What does that tell the judges? how can you give someone rounds who drops down whenever they are hit, it's ridiculous. I think Werdum could have won if he setup his strikes with more takedown attempts instead of just flopping, at least dive for his legs and not just flop.


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

Not impressed by either fighter.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

I wish we got to see Fedor/Reem, only because Fedor would fight like a ******* champ, and not pull that garbage.

Overeem on the other hand, i've said before he doesn't dodge strikes well at all. In K1 he just sits in front and absorbs the strikes. This is mma with rougher rules and smaller gloves. Once he gets tagged by a JDS, or Cain, it's not gonna end well.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

I could have scored this fight Either way with Werdum taking the 1st and the 3rd, or Overeem taking the 2nd and the 3rd and I would have been happy. But who the **** scored the 1st round for Overeem?

Unless your grossly incompetent and don't understand the difference between pulling guard and take downs you would HAVE to score it for Werdum. He lit Overeem up on the feet. He may have been shoved a lot but Overeem only threw about 6 total punches with maybe 3 connecting in that round. 

Judging is beyond my comprehension these days. Like I said, I could easily score it for Overeem but there's no way in hell it was 30-27.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Emericanaddict said:


> I could have scored this fight Either way with Werdum taking the 1st and the 3rd, or Overeem taking the 2nd and the 3rd and I would have been happy. But who the **** scored the 1st round for Overeem?
> 
> Unless your grossly incompetent and don't understand the difference between pulling guard and take downs you would HAVE to score it for Werdum. He lit Overeem up on the feet. He may have been shoved a lot but Overeem only threw about 6 total punches with maybe 3 connecting in that round.
> 
> Judging is beyond my comprehension these days. Like I said, I could easily score it for Overeem but there's no way in hell it was 30-27.


I actually scored round 1 for Overeem, don't know how pulling guard 8 times in round 1 is a positive, it should have big ramifications on your aggression/octagon control. I don't know how you can win a round by throwing punches, immediately pulling guard and doing nothing with it. Pulling guard isn't a good thing and doesn't get scored, unless of course you get off a submission. Not to mention that he had an open guard, which let Overeem up fairly easily....You want to reward that?

Not to mention that he fell down whenever Overeem landed a flush punch/knee, which was about 3 times in round 1. Normally when a fighter falls down after a punch, its a negative. This isn't a JJ match, its a MMA fight and I just dont understand the logic of pulling guard and letting a fighter up so easily. 

This is even worse then what Leites did to Anderson.

This was a rather dull fight but the main thing that won it for Overeem, at least in my books, was octagon control/aggression. Like I said earlier, if Werdum actually attempted takedowns, at least dove for his legs and locked them up or whatever, it would be easier for the judges to score a round to him then him just pulling guard.

I am tired of these BJJ fighters expecting fighters to just fall into their guard without them working for it, they need to evolve.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

Spec0688 said:


> I actually scored round 1 for Overeem, don't know how pulling guard 8 times in round 1 is a positive, it should have big ramifications on your aggression/octagon control. How can Overeem land significant punches when all Werdum did was get close to Overeem, land punches and immediately fall on his back, you want to reward that?
> 
> Not to mention that he fell down whenever Overeem landed a flush punch/knee.


So what your saying is landing way more punches than Overeem while avoiding damage yourself is a bad thing? Werdum did WAY more damage round 1. I agree he should not have wasted time trying to get it to the ground. But at the end of the day utilising a known and tested part of the fight game shouldn't be counted against you. Unless some one rewrote the rules and didn't tell me about it.

Werdum wasn't running away from Overeem he was ACTIVELY engaging him in the stand up and then smartly trying to pull guard. Only a moron would stand there and just absorb punches because they think it's the proper way to fight.

He did waste a lot of time however there is no denying that. But every time they were on the feet Werdum pushed forward punishing the body the head and the legs.

Come back with a solid argument because. Werdum wasn't being timid he was trying to bring the fight where he had the advantage. This wasn't on the level of Leites vs Silva guys, so let's stop pretending.

There is no argument for Overeem winning round 1 unless you add up the slips and times he pulled guards then combine then with the shoving that Overeem used and count all of those as "takedowns" at which point you are desperate and trying to bend the rules to fit your own bias.

Like I said I score the fight for Overeem but Werdum took round number one.

It's up to Overeem to find a way to strike his opponent. If he couldn't do so even though they were actively engaging on the feet then that's a major issue on his part.


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## TMNT (Jun 19, 2011)

The worst ppv I've seen in a long time. Here's a couple random thoughts;

1. What business does V. Overeem have being in an octagon?
2. Brett Rogers has ZERO groundgame. Unless you count someone passing your guard with out trying a good thing.
3. KJ/Jorge only fight worth watching on the entire card.
4. Waited months for the Overeem/werdum fight - shouldn't have. Werdum outstruck Reem... Reem kept coming straight into Ws strikes... Werdum fought like a coward. Fine you wanna fight on the ground but you have to get the fight there... I really didn't know how to score that fight but glad to see Reem go through.

Bad, bad, bad ppv.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

How many times do I have to say it, you guys must not realize how significant octagon control/aggression is, and that clearly goes to Overeem. You don't get those by landing strikes and pulling guard, you just dont. 

Tell me why Overeem shouldn't get points on making his opponent fall down 3-4 times based on strikes? it clearly isn't a slip and the judges could have thought that Werdum was in trouble so he decided to pray for Overeem to come down and fall into his guard. 

The total strikes are 17-10 for Werdum in round 1, landing 7 more strikes is far from one sided then what you are making it to be and then just add what I posted in my last 2 posts on this topic.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

TMNT said:


> The worst ppv I've seen in a long time. Here's a couple random thoughts;
> 
> 1. What business does V. Overeem have being in an octagon?
> 2. Brett Rogers has ZERO groundgame. Unless you count someone passing your guard with out trying a good thing.
> ...


PPV? I taught this was a free card on show time.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

What a horrible fight that was. One of he most boring fights I've seen in years. Huge letdown. I rapidly lose faith in Overeem being able to become the UFC champion, Dos Santos and Velasquez are way more impressive. I hope it was just not his day, otherwise, he better start training again and working on his flaws.



> The worst ppv I've seen in a long time. Here's a couple random thoughts;
> 
> 1. What business does V. Overeem have being in an octagon?
> 2. Brett Rogers has ZERO groundgame. Unless you count someone passing your guard with out trying a good thing.
> ...


This is exactly what I think. Terrible and boring show.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

I'm not the technical expert/genius that you guys are. I judge by my overall impression of the fight.

My impressions of werdum=






































of overeem=


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

Spec0688 said:


> How many times do I have to say it, you guys must not realize how significant octagon control/aggression is, and that clearly goes to Overeem. You don't get those by landing strikes and pulling guard, you just dont.
> 
> Tell me why Overeem shouldn't get points on making his opponent fall down 3-4 times based on strikes? it clearly isn't a slip and the judges could have thought that Werdum was in trouble so he decided to pray for Overeem to come down and fall into his guard.
> 
> The total strikes are 17-10 for Werdum in round 1, landing 7 more strikes is far from one sided then what you are making it to be and then just add what I posted in my last 2 posts on this topic.


Overeem shouldn't get points for them because there were several slips and then the rest were almost all Werdum pulling guard. Overeem only put Werdum on his back once a or twice and they were from shoves. Werdum let these be exaggerated trying to bate the man in.

Octagon control is WAYYYYYYYYY to debatable and should not play any near as big of a role as physical damage and ability to mount and attack.

Your grasping at straws for no reason. Overeem won the fight dude but you can't bend the rules in your favor on this one. The rules don't work in any way you see fit.

You can't claim octagon control one the round for Overeem when Werdum used effective striking and aggression in his favor. BOTH of which should out way a "Dominant position" It would have been different if Overeem had constantly been taking the fight to Werdum but he wasn't he was just sitting back and waiting while Werdum connected over and over again.

It's just silly to say Overeem won the round by effectively doing nothing.


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## TMNT (Jun 19, 2011)

marcthegame said:


> PPV? I taught this was a free card on show time.


Was on Main Event channel in Australia. Saw it at the pub but pretty sure you have to pay for it here.

Judges could have very easily given the main event to either fighter and a draw wouldn't have been out of question. I thought if Reem was to win it would only be because of octagon control and how bad Werdum looked flopping on the ground. 

Can refs penalize a fighter a point for continually getting up very slow?


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

After re-watching the fight I discovered a few things.
Rounds 1-2 was definitely Overeem. Third round "could" have been Werdum had he not spent the majority of the fight on his back. 

Round 1 - Overeem landed cleaner single power shots. Half of the time Werdum pulled guard, what I didn't realize was half the times Overeem tripped em or shoved em down. Werdum = 0 takedowns. 

Round 2 - More of the same. This is when I realized that Overeem used his physical strength to shove Werdum down forcefully and landing on top of em again and again. This would technically be a takedown even if Werdum was trying to pull guard. 

Round 3 - Werdum was certainly the agressor, but he spent majority of the time on his back with a last minute knee bar attempt.

Overeem landed far more cleaner power shots. A lot of the shots Werdum attempted in the first two rounds missed the target (head kick, hooks, knees) and most were really to set up a takedown so it was relatively weak shots. Overeem on the hand landed:
- quite a few knees
- several hooks to the body
- right hook to the temple

Had any fighter continued standing Overeem would have finished em. Each time Werdum got hurt he would fall back and that allowed him time to recuperate. I remember a knee and vicious hook that rocked Werdum and he "yelped" haha. Those took away his energy along with getting pushed down continuously. 

Quite a few moments where The Reem feinted to guage Werdum's reaction. Overeem could have hurt Werdum even more, but held back. Werdum never once threatened em until the last seconds of the 3rd.

I dunno it wasn't as bad as it seemed. The Reem usually finishes his fight, but Werdum didn't give him the opportunity to. Plain and simple. 

*Note* Werdum fought a very sneaky fight.
- trying to encroach into the center having the ref continuously signal him to back off while Alistair stayed back.
- trying to kick Alistair in the face while he was fixing his ankle brace
- pulling guard a dozen times
- throwing a right punch and reaching down for an ankle pick
- pleading with Alistair to go to the ground with em...lolz
- sitting on the ground waiting for Overeem to try to punch em then he would fall back instantly
- grabbing Alistair's gloves when he finally got his back. Then he just "monkey rolled" off. 

Yah it's kinda hard to finish an opponent who's cagey like that.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

*Quick Analysis: Reem vs Werdum Fight!*

Figured this was worth a post. Spent a few minutes analyzing the fight after reviewing it a second time. 

After re-watching the fight I discovered a few things.
Rounds 1-2 was definitely Overeem. Third round "could" have been Werdum had he not spent the majority of the fight on his back. 

Round 1 - Overeem landed cleaner single power shots. Half of the time Werdum pulled guard, what I didn't realize was half the times Overeem tripped em or shoved em down. Werdum = 0 takedowns. 

Round 2 - More of the same. This is when I realized that Overeem used his physical strength to shove Werdum down forcefully and landing on top of em again and again. This would technically be a takedown even if Werdum was trying to pull guard. 

Round 3 - Werdum was certainly the agressor, but he spent majority of the time on his back with a last minute knee bar attempt.

Overeem landed far more cleaner power shots. A lot of the shots Werdum attempted in the first two rounds missed the target (head kick, hooks, knees) and most were really to set up a takedown so it was relatively weak shots. Overeem on the other hand landed:
- quite a few knees
- several hooks to the body
- right hook to the temple

Had any fighter continued standing Overeem would have finished em. Each time Werdum got hurt he would fall back and that allowed him time to recuperate. I remember a knee and vicious hook that rocked Werdum and he "yelped" haha. Those took away his energy along with getting pushed down continuously. 

Quite a few moments where The Reem feinted to guage Werdum's reaction. Overeem could have hurt Werdum even more, but held back. Werdum never once threatened em until the last seconds of the 3rd.

I dunno it wasn't as bad as it seemed. The Reem usually finishes his fight, but Werdum didn't give him the opportunity to. Plain and simple. 

*Note* Werdum fought a very sneaky fight.
- trying to encroach into the center having the ref continuously signal him to back off while Alistair stayed back.
- trying to kick Alistair in the face while he was fixing his ankle brace
- pulling guard a dozen times
- throwing a right punch and reaching down for an ankle pick
- pleading with Alistair to go to the ground with em...lolz
- sitting on the ground waiting for Overeem to try to punch em then he would fall back instantly
- grabbing Alistair's gloves when he finally got his back. Then he just "monkey rolled" off. 

Yah it's kinda hard to finish an opponent who's cagey like that.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Emericanaddict said:


> Overeem shouldn't get points for them because there were several slips and then the rest were almost all Werdum pulling guard. Overeem only put Werdum on his back once a or twice and they were from shoves. Werdum let these be exaggerated trying to bate the man in.
> 
> Octagon control is WAYYYYYYYYY to debatable and should not play any near as big of a role as physical damage and ability to mount and attack.
> 
> ...


I think you're the one grasping at straws here, you try to make it sound like Werdum outstruck Overeem by a significant number, yet I showed you that it was 17-10. You're telling me he was baiting him and there were slips involved, I say he wanted guard from the start and there were no slips involved. 

You say round 1 should be based on damage, throwing 7 more punches doesn't necessarily mean more damage, all of Overeem's punches were power punches. 

Please explain to me how Werdum use control/aggression in round one? he had flurries of 3 punches or so and then dropped into guard, you really want to make that into a case of control/aggression. If that were the case, then all JJ fighters would be doing that and scoring rounds.


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## TMNT (Jun 19, 2011)

Werdum had every right to try and upkick Reem when Reem pulling up ankle guard, ref wasn't at the time standing them up. My mates and I all laughed at that, Reem wasn't worried in the slightest.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

Spec0688 said:


> I think you're the one grasping at straws here, you try to make it sound like Werdum outstruck Overeem by a significant number, yet I showed you that it was 17-10. You're telling me he was baiting him and there were slips involved, I say he wanted guard from the start and there were no slips involved.
> 
> You say round 1 should be based on damage, throwing 7 more punches doesn't necessarily mean more damage, all of Overeem's punches were power punches.
> 
> Please explain to me how Werdum use control/aggression in round one? he had flurries of 3 punches or so and then dropped into guard, you really want to make that into a case of control/aggression. If that were the case, then all JJ fighters would be doing that and scoring rounds.


Right ive reconsidered after watching round 1 again just now and realised im 100% in the right here. Those are Fight metric numbers your spouting and they seem to be based off of nothing. i just rewatched the fight and counted up the strikes. Overeem landed between 6-7 strikes the entire first round. 

Werdum landed a whopping 36 strikes. That is a hell of a difference. theres no way you can reduce the amount of strikes Werdum landed to 17. 

I would like to point out I was WRONG about the slips there were non. I may have seen a slip later in the fight and thought it was in the 1st. That being said however. The only time Werdum went to his back was AFTER shooting in on Overeem at which point he got back up and continued pushing forwards. 

There's definitely no way you can claim Octagon Control because Werdum pushed Overeem backwards for the whole round by advancing with strikes and take downs. There was several times where Wedrum actually mangaged to partially tie Overeem up and start gaining wrist control and working from the bottom. 

Overeem avoided these attempts however and refused to engage on the ground forcing the fight back to the feet where he was ACTIVELY LOSING ANYWAYS. That shows timidity if you ask me. Which is in no way a "control factor" Overeem did however land a nice knee and slammed Werdum down pretty hard once, albeit with a shove. 

Werdum took round number one on the feet and actively pressured Overeem throughout the entire round. You could give Overeem two "takedowns" if you count Werdum falling when his foot was caught along with the forceful shove/slam. Combined with 6-7 other strikes doesn't out weigh Werdum pushing the pace and actively landing strikes which were mixed in with some heavy knees.

I implore you to watch the fight again and don't look to Fight Metric because they seem to pull numbers out of there asses.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

*Why didnt Werdum get a points deduction?*

I lost count of the amount of time Werdum took forever to get to his feet. Why was he allowed to get away with it over and over again? Clear time wasting and an attempt to recover.

One was not imbressed.


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## TMNT (Jun 19, 2011)

Compustrike is the dumbest, most pointless thing in mma.


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## prolyfic (Apr 22, 2007)

I too was waiting for a warning or something from the ref....it never came.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> You're a joke. You don't gamble, neither do I. You made this personal in one of your other silly posts post carwin/jds and I called you out on a $100 bet. Forget real money then. If Cain wins, you **** off from this forum for good, how about that? Or will you ***** out of that one too?!
> 
> You're awful at calling MMA fights and you know it. All I needed was to read your posts about how Randy Couture was going to beat Lyoto Machida..... You're too biased of a fan to accurately make any kind of fight prediction.
> 
> ...


Awwww, didz someonez takez the internetz a wittle too seriously? There, there, muffin... the big, badd Canadian Psycho won't pick on you anymore!

Lighten the heck up. I was having a bit of fun with you, but you clearly can't detect when someone's yanking your chain. I'm not even going to address your ridiculous post, which is obviously laced with butt-hurtedness. All I'll say is that you calling me biased is a laugh and a half, and as for Randy vs. Machida... if you can't put analysis and logic aside and just be a fan who supports his favourite fighters once in a while, then I feel sorry for you. Chill pills, my friend... invest in some.

Edit - LOL @ a 'loser leaves town' bet. First... I'd tend to think I'd be a lot more missed around here than your bipolar arse. And two, how utterly, utterly dramatic. I'm embarrassed for both of us. You for instigating this nonsense, and me for even being halfway caught up in it. You have a good one, sport.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

This fight felt like watching Silva/Leites and Silva/Maia at the same time.

Smart fight by Overeem.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> This fight felt like watching Silva/Leites and Silva/Maia at the same time.
> 
> Smart fight by Overeem.


How so exactly? What fight were people watching? Werdum pushed forward all night exchanging even more than Overeem did. YES he pulled guard a lot but Werdum ain't the reason this fight wasn't exciting. Overeem should have and probably could have finished this fight if he had just let his hands go. He was just way to conservative for his own good.

Overeem really let himself down IMO. Definitely showed weaknesses that will be exploited by guys with far superior striking to Werdum's.

I just didn't find the fight as a whole to be all that bad. Leites and Maia were just dropping to guard without pushing the fight (Well Maia did later but yeah) Werdum was constantly pushing forward forcing Overeem to fight. If he hadn't Overeem may have stood there all night staring into space because he didn't seem very present in the ring.

Werdum fought to the best of his ability and we all knew he wouldn't quite match up to Overeem which he didn't. Hell he couldn't even match up to an Overeem who's head was somewhere else. That said. At least he tried really hard. 

Overeem is the one who deserves the flack on this one because the guy is way better than he showed last night.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Maybe because despite falling down, butt scooting and being incredibly slow to stand up he was still the more aggressive and active fighter?


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## Brydon (Jan 13, 2007)

Sounds a lot like Silva vs Leites. Pulling guard in MMA is just asking to lose a decision. I also hate when guys get hit and they just fall to their backs in defence rather than staying standing. Did Werdum actually try and win this fight? I have a feeling from what I have read he was just avoiding the KO.


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## Abrissbirne (Jul 4, 2010)

Totally agree, Werdums performance was embarassing...


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## Brydon (Jan 13, 2007)

Butt scooting in MMA should result in an instant decision loss. It is ridiculous. If the guy doesn't want to follow you down, then you have to stand. The butt scoot is plain ridiculous in MMA.


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

I thought Overeem won but where is the supposed best striker at HW who was going to KO Werdum effortlessly? I don't know why Werdum kept pulling guard since he was winning the stand up or at the least holding his own. Overeem looked absurdly hesitant on his feet, Werdum looked terrified standing and yet he outlanded Overeem because the Reem was so reluctant to throw. 

If Overeem has that much trouble with Werdum standing I would expect quite a few HW's to beat him without much trouble.


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

Brydon said:


> Did Werdum actually try and win this fight? I have a feeling from what I have read he was just avoiding the KO.


He outlanded Overeem standing but because he pulled guard every 30 seconds the judges probably didn't notice that he was actually winning the stand up (or at the least holding his own). Honestly I don't know what Werdum was thinking. Not an impressive performance from either guy. Overeem never let his hands go at all, he seemed very hesitant to throw. Afraid of the takedown maybe? 

Werdum was so terrified of Overeem standing I don't think he even noticed he was actually winning the stand up and Overeem wanted nothing to do with Werdum on the ground. End result was a weird fight where they both look bad.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Emericanaddict said:


> Right ive reconsidered after watching round 1 again just now and realised im 100% in the right here. Those are Fight metric numbers your spouting and they seem to be based off of nothing. i just rewatched the fight and counted up the strikes. Overeem landed between 6-7 strikes the entire fight.
> 
> Werdum landed a whopping 36 strikes. That is a hell of a difference. theres no way you can reduce the amount of strikes Werdum landed to 17.
> 
> ...


Interesting post. Thanks for the effort.

Nothing of what you say is incorrect. There is a strong argument for Werdum winning when looking at the outright striking and control stats. BUT, I dont think his slowness to get up from his back on numerous occasions, did him any favours in the eyes of the judges. I certainly felt like Overeem won, but watching again, a lot of your observations are correct. It was Werdum laying there for 4-6 seconds at a time that left me with the impression of timidity on his part, even though he was aggressive for the majority of the fight.

Basically, even if Werdum won 2 rounds, I still feel the ref should have docked him a point for the delaying tactics.

A very tough fight to judge. Very tough.


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

Soojooko said:


> Basically, even if Werdum won 2 rounds, I still feel the ref should have docked him a point for the delaying tactics.
> 
> A very tough fight to judge. Very tough.


Agreed. Werdum should have had a point taken off (not for pulling guard which he is allowed to do obviously but for stalling repeatedly about getting up). Having said that, without a point deduction you could have easily scored that fight for Werdum. Judges absolutely LOVE aggression though, Werdum threw away a fight he was winning by looking so terrified of Overeem standing.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Had Werdum realized that Overeem was so cautious of the takedown I think Werdum's striking would have come out on top. Werdum is obviously not the better striker of the two but Overeem's handicap of focusing on takedown defense was really limiting him. If Werdum would learn some wrestling and realize pulling guard only works in pure grappling he'll do well.


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## TMNT (Jun 19, 2011)

Emericanaddict said:


> How so exactly? What fight were people watching? Werdum pushed forward all night exchanging even more than Overeem did. YES he pulled guard a lot but Werdum ain't the reason this fight wasn't exciting. Overeem should have and probably could have finished this fight if he had just let his hands go. He was just way to conservative for his own good.
> 
> Overeem really let himself down IMO. Definitely showed weaknesses that will be exploited by guys with far superior striking to Werdum's.
> 
> ...


Strongly disagree Werdum was pushing the fight. Sometimes yes, most the time dropping to guard like a little girl.

Overeem did nothing impressive.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Werdum had no option.. but I was kinda sad about his Endurance. He needs to train much, much harder on that.

Will be rooting for him only in the Future. What a great guy he is!!


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## Hawkeye6287 (Mar 25, 2008)

I reckon reintroduction of the kicks to a downed opponent's head would prevent butt scooting and flopping onto your back.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Yeah. Werdum's bullshit antics last night make me advocate for Cage Rage style Open guard rules.

That was bullshit and poor refereeing to allow Werdum to deliberately stall like that.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

It looks really bad in the judges eyes to fight like that, but I think overall this was a very close fight but Overeem still took a close decision.


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

IMO Overeem rightfully took the win. An embarassing show from Werdum that would have made any fighter look bad.
Terrible fight to watch and it was Werdums fault.
Sure it was a close fight because neither man did anything big but I'm satisfied with the result even tho I had some money on Werdum.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

mmaswe82 said:


> IMO Overeem rightfully took the win. An embarassing show from Werdum that would have made any fighter look bad.
> Terrible fight to watch and it was Werdums fault.
> Sure it was a close fight because neither man did anything big but I'm satisfied with the result even tho I had some money on Werdum.


I had a parlay with the Reem^^ Guillard needs to win now for me and I get 150 Bucks  

You can clearly only bet on the favourites in this Sport. Thats what I learned at least..


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## Term (Jul 28, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Exactly, it's nonsense. As far as Overeem being "outstruck", and "would've been in trouble if Werdum had power"...really spoken from someone who has zero knowledge of the striking game. Alistair was taking and mostly blocking those punches deliberately to set up countering opportunities, to which Werdum responded to by butt scooting like a bitch.


I agree this is what he did in his K1 bouts as well. He would cover up and let them hit him and when he took his shot it would back them up and he would then start pummeling them. Only in this fight when Alistair would land the big shot Werdum would grab him and pull guard. To be honest I was afraid Alastair might lose, letting it go to the judges for a fight like that was risky.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Overeem was given a gift, He didn't win the striking and Werdum was flopping so much he should have had a point taken away for stalling. 

IMO the only reason Werdum lost was his flop happy strategy and LOL at the REEM and his fans thinking he would be able to out strike JDS or Cain.

Overeem is a good fighter with skills in every aspect of the game but his striking is not above the competition.

Hell I think Carwin would have a good shot at knocking him out TBH.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

slapshot said:


> Overeem was given a gift, He didn't win the striking and Werdum was flopping so much he should have had a point taken away for stalling.
> 
> IMO the only reason Werdum lost was his flop happy strategy and LOL at the REEM and his fans thinking he would be able to out strike JDS or Cain.
> 
> ...


LOL Carwin? :thumb02:

Like I said slapshot, don't take this fight serious in any kinda way.. it will only suprise you later on.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> LOL Carwin? :thumb02:
> 
> Like I said slapshot, don't take this fight serious in any kinda way.. it will only suprise you later on.


I doubt it, Ive been watching Overeem from the Beginning and Ive always said he's a tought fighter but his skills are vastly overrated at HW, they always have been. 

He's slower than JDS his striking is not as crisp and JDS is not giving up any kind of power and JDS has superior footwork.

I dont see how he beats JDS standing.


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## Shoegazer (Jun 23, 2007)

I had the fight 29-28 Overeem, but could see the last round going for either. In hindsight, it was a draw, honestly. I think if it went 5 rounds, Werdum would've finished him, because Overeem was getting consistently tagged and was exhausted.

I don't buy the argument that Werdum would have made any fighter look bad. Take a JDS for instance. He would not have been outstruck by Werdum, period. Instead of Werdum having to sloppily pull guard so frequently, JDS would have legitimately been knocking him down. Overeem looked bad because he was getting peppered with punches and kneed to the face multiple times on the feet AND because he was so afraid of the ground. Yes, Werdum didn't really hurt Overeem, I agree. He still outstruck him.

Overeem is not winning this tourney, no doubt in my mind. And there are at least 7 heavyweights in the UFC that will destroy him right_now.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

slapshot said:


> I doubt it, Ive been watching Overeem from the Beginning and Ive always said he's a tought fighter but his skills are vastly overrated at HW, they always have been.
> 
> He's slower than JDS his striking is not as crisp and JDS is not giving up any kind of power and JDS has superior footwork.
> 
> I dont see how he beats JDS standing.


You know that but I sayy it again.

Completely Disagree with everything!


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Shoegazer said:


> Overeem is not winning this tourney, no doubt in my mind. And there are at least 7 heavyweights in the UFC that will destroy him right_now.


Im not sure I would go that far, he's still facing some inferior talent when it comes to stand up. IMO he should destroy big foot so who's left?

Barnett is a solid fighter but his chin is a liability so Im not sure he can get it done.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

slapshot said:


> Im not sure I would go that far, he's still facing some inferior talent when it comes to stand up. IMO he should destroy big foot so who's left?
> 
> Barnett is a solid fighter but his chin is a liability so Im not sure he can get it done.


There aren't any HW's in the MMA world who could challenge Overeem there. Thats the thing!

Werdum is top 3 striker in the HW devision. 

JDS and Cain share number 2

you know the number 1 guy


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> There aren't any HW's in the MMA world who could challenge Overeem there. Thats the thing!
> 
> Werdum is top 3 striker in the HW devision.
> 
> ...


*Meathead!!*


and for you fools who think werdum isn't tougher than you


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

oldfan said:


> *Meathead!!*
> 
> 
> and for you fools who think werdum isn't tougher than you


Meathead :thumb02: after he gets beaten by Morecraft??

And Wredum is amazing!! After I got this Reem bet done finally I can root for him only


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> There aren't any HW's in the MMA world who could challenge Overeem there. Thats the thing!
> 
> Werdum is top 3 striker in the HW devision.
> 
> ...


Werdum being a top 3 striker in mma is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Werdum isn't even top three in striking in this tournament. Fedor, Sergei, AA, and Overeem are clearly better strikers. Honestly I think you can make a case that he is the worst striker in this tournament.

Beating Werdum and no one else of consequence in the HW division doesn't rocket you to #1. Especially since JDS already did convincingly.


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## Finnsidious (Mar 14, 2009)

I couldn't hear if the ref was warning him or not, but he sure as hell should have if he wasn't and he should have taken a point if he warned him a couple times and Werdum continued.

He can pull guard all he wants, thats his perogative, but he was obviously stalling when the ref stepped between them and motioned him up. Honestly, this is on the ref as well as Werdum, if he doesn't warn him, or doesn't take a point after he warns him, Werdum can do whatever he wants.

Don't know what Werdum was thinking though, it looks terrible to the judges, it definately factored into the loss. 

I can't remember the last time I saw a fight where both fighters disappointed me so much. Neither guy adapted to the fight conditions at all, they both utterly failed to react to what their opponent was doing, they both gave way too much credit to their opponent, just awful by both of them.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

Well i'll just share some points that stuck out for me during the fight - 

1. This was not a good fight to watch. The blame for this rests entirely at Werdum, it was almost embarrasing at some points. Just because Fedor dove straight into your guard like a maniac doesnt mean everyone will - there HAS to be a backup plan other than pulling guard and pretending you are hurt.

2. Werdum did not outstrike Overeem in any way whatsoever. I didnt see him land one shot that looked like it hurt Reem or caused him any discomfort. Reem is, by nature, a counter puncher with brutal power. Werdum would throw a couple of strikes, get countered then jump onto the floor like a fish out of water. 

3. The fight that Werdum fought shows us a couple of things, i)he was petrified of standing up with Overeem and ii)unless he improves his wrestling he is never going to be better than a fringe top 10 fighter. 

4. The Reems striking looked solid, like it always does. Its easily the best in the world of HW MMA. I dont see how people are blind to this fact. If Werdum hadnt pulled guard every time Overeem started to trade (not a bad idea but let it go if it doesnt work at all) Reem would have decapitated him. 

5. Even when it did hit the ground, Werdum had nothing to offer. Reem consolidated top control, didnt take any unneccessary risks, and was never in danger. 

6. As if it needs saying, but Reem is an absolute powerhouse. Werdum is not a small or weak guy and he was completely overpowered in this fight and thrown like a rag doll numerous times.

7. Both guys cardio was not up to scratch tonight. Werdum gassed harder and quicker, but Reem was struggling by the end and in the post fight interview it was very obvious.

8. Overeems TDD looked imrpessive, a nice blend of raw strength and technique. Also, did you see how quick he was the one time he scrambled? Very nice. 

9. Reem will abuse Big Foot. He's slow, and Reem doesnt have to be afraid of anything. It will probably look like the Rogers fight.


*Don't let this fight fool you. The Reem is easily top 3, if not the best HW in the world. Werdum could of made anyone look like shit with that display, it was an incredibly awkward, difficult fight but he came through it strong. Just watch what he will do to Big Foot. 

Also, the next episode of 'The Reem' is up*


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Werdum being a top 3 striker in mma is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Werdum isn't even top three in striking in this tournament. Fedor, Sergei, AA, and Overeem are clearly better strikers. Honestly I think you can make a case that he is the worst striker in this tournament.
> 
> Beating Werdum and no one else of consequence in the HW division doesn't rocket you to #1. Especially since JDS already did convincingly.


Glad someone else said it so I didn't have to. That was a ludicrous statement.



> 1. This was not a good fight to watch. The blame for this rests entirely at Werdum, it was almost embarrasing at some points. Just because Fedor dove straight into your guard like a maniac doesnt mean everyone will - there HAS to be a backup plan other than pulling guard and pretending you are hurt.


Wrestling to not be struck = great gameplan. Pulling guard to not be struck = embarassing. Seriously? Do people still not get this? We see countless fighters throw strikes and then try and wrestling their opponents to the ground (GSP comes to mind immediately as does Maynard, Rashad, Chael, Randy and Stun Gun) people call the performance dominating, even when they DON'T get takedowns.. Werdum does the exact same thing with pulling guard and it's embarassing. A BJJ artist being on his back is not embarassing. A person being in his guard =/= that person winning the fight by any means, it's a neutral position until someone tries to do something and Overeem did NOTHING when he was on top. 



> 2. Werdum did not outstrike Overeem in any way whatsoever. I didnt see him land one shot that looked like it hurt Reem or caused him any discomfort. Reem is, by nature, a counter puncher with brutal power. Werdum would throw a couple of strikes, get countered then jump onto the floor like a fish out of water.


Except that he did. He landed more shots than Reem did. Significantly more in rounds 1 and 3. Also, during the third round he hit Reem HARD and had him backed up and covering. Even if he wasn't rocked or hurt in some way, he sure as hell looked like it.



> 3. The fight that Werdum fought shows us a couple of things, i)he was petrified of standing up with Overeem and ii)unless he improves his wrestling he is never going to be better than a fringe top 10 fighter.


Who in their right mind would try to stand with Alistair!? The dude just won the K-1 GP in RECORD TIME. You'd have to be mental to. The second part I half agree with. He needs to improve his wrestling, yes, but you're talking about a guy who just submitted Fedor and arguably beat one of the top 3 HWs in the world. He's past being a "Fringe top 10 fighter."



> 4. The Reems striking looked solid, like it always does. Its easily the best in the world of HW MMA. I dont see how people are blind to this fact. If Werdum hadnt pulled guard every time Overeem started to trade (not a bad idea but let it go if it doesnt work at all) Reem would have decapitated him.


It looked good, yes, but it also exposed his speed and his defense on a big level. JDS would crush him standing IMO. 



> 5. Even when it did hit the ground, Werdum had nothing to offer. Reem consolidated top control, didnt take any unneccessary risks, and was never in danger.


Except when he was almost knee barred? He lost on the ground by standard grappling rules (referencing ADCC as it's the world's premier grappling organization, not just BJJ). Laying on top doesn't win you grappling portions. Especially since Werdum was actually attempting to do things. He may have only gotten one close, but he was trying every time it hit the ground.



> 6. As if it needs saying, but Reem is an absolute powerhouse. Werdum is not a small or weak guy and he was completely overpowered in this fight and thrown like a rag doll numerous times.
> 
> 7. Both guys cardio was not up to scratch tonight. Werdum gassed harder and quicker, but Reem was struggling by the end and in the post fight interview it was very obvious.


Very, very true. Also, remember Werdum has excellent balance being the grappler he is. Agreed on cardio, too. If that was a five round fight it would've gotten really bad. Cain and JDS would both outlast them easily.



> 8. Overeems TDD looked imrpessive, a nice blend of raw strength and technique. Also, did you see how quick he was the one time he scrambled? Very nice.
> 
> 9. Reem will abuse Big Foot. He's slow, and Reem doesnt have to be afraid of anything. It will probably look like the Rogers fight.


He's extremely explosive. He showed it against Rogers too, but I didn't buy it because, sorry, Rogers is a ******* Joke. His TDD looked fantastic tonight, but remember Werdum's wrestling isn't exactly fantastic. He showed great reflexes though as well. As far as the fight with Silva... I'm not sure. Silva isn't as good off his back, but he's much bigger, more powerful, a better striker and could still submit Reem. And his offensive wrestling is better than Dooms. I think the winner of this fight wins the GP though.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Werdum being a top 3 striker in mma is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Werdum isn't even top three in striking in this tournament. Fedor, Sergei, AA, and Overeem are clearly better strikers. Honestly I think you can make a case that he is the worst striker in this tournament.
> 
> Beating Werdum and no one else of consequence in the HW division doesn't rocket you to #1. Especially since JDS already did convincingly.





TraMaI said:


> Glad someone else said it so I didn't have to. That was a ludicrous statement.


Ok maybe I was a little quick with that one 

However^^ Werdum is definitely in the top 6-7. He outclassed BigFoot who outclassed Fedor.

Also, why all over sudden does a win over Werdum means nothing? Werdum defeated the great Emelianenko.. ;D

And was Instantly!! Top 3 in the World after that.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Dream-On-101 said:


> 2. Werdum did not outstrike Overeem in any way whatsoever. I didnt see him land one shot that looked like it hurt Reem or caused him any discomfort. Reem is, by nature, a counter puncher with brutal power. Werdum would throw a couple of strikes, get countered then jump onto the floor like a fish out of water.


What are you smoking? 

He absolutely out struck Reem and there is no other conclusion to make unless you're a fanboy. If the other guy lands more strikes by a wide margin then you got outboxed and that's what happened.

Reems striking looked good? He looked slow, his footwork was shit and if it weren't for the horrible flops Overeem would be in the losers bracket right now. 

Not only was it easy to tell he was losing exchanges but we have the strike count to prove it. 

Willful ignorance must be trending.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

IMO its this simple Werdum fought like a bit of a ***** but Overeem didn;t fight at all.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> Ok maybe I was a little quick with that one
> 
> However^^ Werdum is definitely in the top 6-7. He outclassed BigFoot who outclassed Fedor.
> 
> ...


Well I agree he's easily top 6-7 in the world at HW. I don't agree he's top 6-7 striking. Werdum is probably the best HW in SF right now, he won that fight IMO.



slapshot said:


> What are you smoking?
> 
> He absolutely out struck Reem and there is no other conclusion to make unless you're a fanboy. If the other guy lands more strikes by a wide margin then you got outboxed and that's what happened.
> 
> ...


I approve of this post on so many levels.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> Well I agree he's easily top 6-7 in the world at HW. I don't agree he's top 6-7 striking. Werdum is probably the best HW in SF right now, he won that fight IMO.


Oh under an acceptable scoring system they would have given up more then 1 point deduction which would have made Overeem the deserving winner that night anyway.

Who do you have ahead of Werdum striking wise these days? He's not the same anymore when he fought Arlovski or Junior.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> Glad someone else said it so I didn't have to. That was a ludicrous statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

You call those flops something to worry about? I'd like to see how "tentative" he gets against real take-downs then.

Sounds like a lot of excuses to me.


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## Rusko (Feb 4, 2010)

oldfan said:


> Maybe because despite falling down, butt scooting and being incredibly slow to stand up he was still the more aggressive and active fighter?


This.

Werdum had a very good game plan and outlanded Overeem. I was not impressed by Overeem in this fight.


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

> He's extremely explosive. He showed it against Rogers too, but I didn't buy it because, sorry, Rogers is a ******* Joke. His TDD looked fantastic tonight, but remember Werdum's wrestling isn't exactly fantastic. He showed great reflexes though as well. As far as the fight with Silva... I'm not sure. Silva isn't as good off his back, but he's much bigger, more powerful, *a better striker *and could still submit Reem. And his offensive wrestling is better than Dooms. I think the winner of this fight wins the GP though.


I don't believe that Bigfoot is a better striker than Werdum, he actually got outpointed in their fight. He also isn't alot bigger, they are the same height and bigfoot is a little bit heavier. The rest is true about them tho.

Other than that regarding werdum outstriking Reem, well sure in numbers, but the way he did it was so cowardly and should have made him lose a point so in the end I agree with Reem winning. All werdum did was rush in like a madman swinging wild weak punches hoping to hit, wich he did but with no result and then as soon as Overeem was about to engage he flopped on his back. Doing it like that anyone can outstrike a great striker. So to the people that say that Werdum would have won had he not flopped on his back and butt-scooted I say no, hell no. Had he kept standing he would have been countered and KO'ed, the only reason he survived was because he rushed in swinging and then just jumped on his ass. This would have been acceptable if he actually *pulled* guard, then yes it would almost be as effective as mixing in takedowns with your striking. But jumping to guard without having a grip on your opponent isn't the same thing. And not only did he fail miserably with his "guard-pulling" he also sat on his ass begging Overeem to jump in his guard and almost refusing to stand up. I'm glad he lost even tho I had money on him.


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

Bad reffing, they should have taken a point


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

I'm glad i'm not the only one who thought Werdum outstruck Overeem. He landed quite a few very solid shots, more than Overeem did, some good knees too.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Awwww, didz someonez takez the internetz a wittle too seriously? There, there, muffin... the big, badd Canadian Psycho won't pick on you anymore!
> 
> Lighten the heck up. I was having a bit of fun with you, but you clearly can't detect when someone's yanking your chain. I'm not even going to address your ridiculous post, which is obviously laced with butt-hurtedness. All I'll say is that you calling me biased is a laugh and a half, and as for Randy vs. Machida... if you can't put analysis and logic aside and just be a fan who supports his favourite fighters once in a while, then I feel sorry for you. Chill pills, my friend... invest in some.
> 
> Edit - LOL @ a 'loser leaves town' bet. First... I'd tend to think I'd be a lot more missed around here than your bipolar arse. And two, how utterly, utterly dramatic. I'm embarrassed for both of us. You for instigating this nonsense, and me for even being halfway caught up in it. You have a good one, sport.


Stop with your bullshit. You directly called me a nob head in one of the other threads post jds/carwin and you tell me to lighten up? Don't call me a nob head and not expect me to retaliate. You weren't having fun, I cba digging up your other post but you were clearly being very serious and directly insulted me. Now you're trying to manipulate this entire situation and turn it around. You're an A grade twat.

YOU instigated this, not me. BiPolar?

Take the cowards way out. Humiliating you on this forum after Reem smashes Big foot and Cain/JDS isn't quite enough, I want to take your cash too. I called you out on a $100 bet after you started running your mouth and you pussied out.

You're terrible at calling fights in this sport and you have almost no technical understanding of it what so ever.

I will make it my duty to humiliate you in all of your posts after cain/jds goes down and overeem/big foot.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Because its not against the rules to keep pulling guard and there is no way to prove he was stalling when getting up since he could have genuinely been tired etc which would lead to him getting up slow.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

A BJJ fighter will make anyone look bad when they have it stuck in their head to get someone into guard, just ask Anderson Silva about Leites and Maia.

I still have faith in Overeem as a top HW, it takes two to tango, like he said. Kind of hard to show what you have in the striking department when your opponent pulls guard every 15 seconds.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> Oh under an acceptable scoring system they would have given up more then 1 point deduction which would have made Overeem the deserving winner that night anyway.
> 
> Who do you have ahead of Werdum striking wise these days? He's not the same anymore when he fought Arlovski or Junior.


You can sit there and say Werdum should have been penalized for stalling but the same pattern repeated Werdum stood up became the aggressor threw strikes chasing Overeem down till he got a hold of him at which point he tried to pull guard. It failed a lot but but really Overeem did nothing but posture for the crowd and the judges he never became the aggressor at anytime even when they were standing. Werdum tried to fight but didn't have the TD's to turn it into his kind of fight, Overeem just never attempted at anytime to turn it into a fight. Werdum is getting shit on for sticking to a gameplan that was being largely ineffective but Overeem never seemed to have a gameplan it seemed like he felt if he could defend the TD Werdum would go all Jake Shields and just forget about trying.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

How about the fact Overeem kept moving in like he was gonna nail him getting up, Werdum could easily claim it he was being cautious. The Reem kept moving in like he was gonna take a cheap shot after backing off to let Werdum up.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Toxic said:


> How about the fact Overeem kept moving in like he was gonna nail him getting up, Werdum could easily claim it he was being cautious. The Reem kept moving in like he was gonna take a cheap shot after backing off to let Werdum up.


No one is talking about that but keep changing the subject to defend your boy while making zero sense.

Overeem was backing off and allowing Werdum up at which point the referee steps between them halting the action making it impossible for Overeem to attack Werdum. Werdum was taking forever to get up he was stalling and ignoring the referees commands to restart on the feet. He should have been deducted a point about 4 times in this fight or just outright disqualified.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

osmium said:


> No one is talking about that but keep changing the subject to defend your boy while making zero sense.
> 
> Overeem was backing off and allowing Werdum up at which point the referee steps between them halting the action making it impossible for Overeem to attack Werdum. Werdum was taking forever to get up he was stalling and ignoring the referees commands to restart on the feet. He should have been deducted a point about 4 times in this fight or just outright disqualified.


Exactly. I dont even think the ref warned him a single time. Absolutely ridiculous.

None of this is me saying Overeem looked good. He didn't. But he didn't do anything that should be penalised. Werdum clearly did.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Soojooko said:


> Exactly. I dont even think the ref warned him a single time. Absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> None of this is me saying Overeem looked good. He didn't. But he didn't do anything that should be penalised. Werdum clearly did.


He was getting irritated and kept telling him to get up but he didn't give him any warning for a point deduction that I heard.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Toxic said:


> You can sit there and say Werdum should have been penalized for stalling but the same pattern repeated Werdum stood up became the aggressor threw strikes chasing Overeem down till he got a hold of him at which point he tried to pull guard. It failed a lot but but really Overeem did nothing but posture for the crowd and the judges he never became the aggressor at anytime even when they were standing. Werdum tried to fight but didn't have the TD's to turn it into his kind of fight, Overeem just never attempted at anytime to turn it into a fight. Werdum is getting shit on for sticking to a gameplan that was being largely ineffective but Overeem never seemed to have a gameplan it seemed like he felt if he could defend the TD Werdum would go all Jake Shields and just forget about trying.


Toxic has essentially taken over my arguments in this thread. 100% agreed.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> Who do you have ahead of Werdum striking wise these days? He's not the same anymore when he fought Arlovski or Junior.


Just purely on striking Cain, JDS, Fedor, Overeem (although he didn't show it), AA, Khartinov, Mir, CroCop, Herman, Nelson, and Big Nog are easily better strikers. I wouldn't say his striking is any better than Bigfoot or Barnett.


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## drey2k (Jul 9, 2009)

Both fighters looked horrible.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Toxic said:


> You can sit there and say Werdum should have been penalized for stalling but the same pattern repeated Werdum stood up became the aggressor threw strikes chasing Overeem down till he got a hold of him at which point he tried to pull guard. It failed a lot but but really Overeem did nothing but posture for the crowd and the judges he never became the aggressor at anytime even when they were standing. Werdum tried to fight but didn't have the TD's to turn it into his kind of fight, Overeem just never attempted at anytime to turn it into a fight. Werdum is getting shit on for sticking to a gameplan that was being largely ineffective but Overeem never seemed to have a gameplan it seemed like he felt if he could defend the TD Werdum would go all Jake Shields and just forget about trying.


I agree with both the reasoning for a point deduction, that he at the very least should have been warned and that he won the fight.

I think the judges are lying if they say the flops didn't effect their scoring. I think the point should have been taken in the second and then who knows but the third could have looked a bit more cut and dry for one fighter or the other.

Rewinding and talking about what did happen I think without the foul being called you have no choice but to score the fight for Werdum. 

Im starting to question the athletic commissions and just how may fights are rigged, I know we have been waiting for how long now for them to get their shit together and they never do but maybe its because they are all being paid off?


look at all the controversy in the sport and in the judging system, its not like they dont know it doesn't work and has had shortcomings for how long now? how many "BAD" decisions? 

Then you look at the allegations against Barnett and look into the case with Sherk and the statements by Chael, Im just saying its all starting to look like pro boxing to me.

Ive lost hope they will replace the ten point must and I think it will hold MMA back as a sport even if the UFC continues to be successful as a brand.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Is this fight really a controversy though? I don't think so. Saying this is like boxing and the fights possibly being rigged after this fight is absurd.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Spec0688 said:


> Is this fight really a controversy though? I don't think so. Saying this is like boxing and the fights possibly being rigged after this fight is absurd.


It is? Not really and that fans dont know how the ten point must criteria works doesn't help.

Again this is just one bad call but lets say you wipe it off the table how many other "bad" calls have we seen? fifty? seventy five? it got to the point of negligence years ago and so I just came to the conclusion it's intentional.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Here's a video of the post fight interview.

I agree Werdum didn't come to fight and was stalling unfortunately. Felt like I was watching MMA back in the 90's with a grappler vs striker. 

"Fabricio should be ashamed."


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Ive already seen the fight breakdown, its hosted here, http://blog.fightmetric.com/2011/06/overeem-vs-werdum-ii-official.html

And you dont have to look to closely IE even if the strike count was off one, two, or hell even ten punches to know Overeem lost rounds one and three and possibly two as well.



/The end.


----------



## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Dream-On-101 said:


> Well i'll just share some points that stuck out for me during the fight -
> 
> 1. This was not a good fight to watch. The blame for this rests entirely at Werdum, it was almost embarrasing at some points. Just because Fedor dove straight into your guard like a maniac doesnt mean everyone will - there HAS to be a backup plan other than pulling guard and pretending you are hurt.
> 
> ...


Pretty much agree with the post as per my own analysis several threads back. Initially I probably had the same reaction as most (could have gone either way,) but after reviewing it, it wasn't as close as it seemed. The Reem had control.



TMNT said:


> Werdum had every right to try and upkick Reem when Reem pulling up ankle guard, ref wasn't at the time standing them up. My mates and I all laughed at that, Reem wasn't worried in the slightest.


Hah...hah...true. Still a bit scandalous...lolz.



mmaswe82 said:


> I don't believe that Bigfoot is a better striker than Werdum, he actually got outpointed in their fight. He also isn't alot bigger, they are the same height and bigfoot is a little bit heavier. The rest is true about them tho.
> 
> Other than that regarding werdum outstriking Reem, well sure in numbers, but the way he did it was so cowardly and should have made him lose a point so in the end I agree with Reem winning. *All werdum did was rush in like a madman swinging wild weak punches hoping to hit, wich he did but with no result and then as soon as Overeem was about to engage he flopped on his back. Doing it like that anyone can outstrike a great striker. So to the people that say that Werdum would have won had he not flopped on his back and butt-scooted I say no, hell no.* Had he kept standing he would have been countered and KO'ed, the only reason he survived was because he rushed in swinging and then just jumped on his ass. This would have been acceptable if he actually *pulled* guard, then yes it would almost be as effective as mixing in takedowns with your striking. But jumping to guard without having a grip on your opponent isn't the same thing. And not only did he fail miserably with his "guard-pulling" he also sat on his ass begging Overeem to jump in his guard and almost refusing to stand up. I'm glad he lost even tho I had money on him.


That was the essence of the fight right there. Anybody who rushes in like that is insecure and tentative. Watch Anderson Silva, Lyoto with the exception of Shogun x 2, Overeem, Crocop in Pride, and Overeem. They strike to take out without utilizing unnecessary moves; waste of time and energy. 

The best examples are Anderson and The Reem though. They're efficient. They don't rush in cuz they know when and how to pull the trigger to deliver the maximum damage. Look at how close Overeem stands in front of his opponents. That's a fighter right there who's NOT afraid, but also a much more intelligent fighter than he was in the younger days. He slips, counters, sprawls, clinches, knees, among other things with impunity. He's that good. 

*NOTE* The Reem had cage control majority of the three rounds. Werdum was cornered so he had to flop back or rush in to try to set up takedowns. All to no avail. 

- Lyoto, GSP, all keep their distance. 
- Anderson Silva keeps his distance UNTIL he's ready to strike. When he does the matrix thing/Bruce Lee moves with his hands you'd better watch out cuz he's coming for you...

Overeem post fight interview. "Fabricio should be ashamed."


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

slapshot said:


> Ive already seen the fight breakdown, its hosted here, http://blog.fightmetric.com/2011/06/overeem-vs-werdum-ii-official.html
> 
> And you dont have to look to closely IE even if the strike count was off one, two, or hell even ten punches to know Overeem lost rounds one and three and possibly two as well.
> 
> ...


You should re-watch the fight. Overeem actually landed quite a few shots in the first and second round. Werdum's strikes were mostly misses or used to set up takedowns. Overeem blocked a good number of em. The key was that Overeem took Werdum down forcefully by falling on top of em. Half the times it was Werdum pulling guard, quite a few times it was Overeem that just slammed em down. Technically those are "take downs" and gained him points for getting top control and peppering em with shots on the ground while Werdum was in guard.

I'm not debating that Werdum threw more strikes. The question lies in whether it was effective; most missed and most blocked with the exception of the 3rd round.

1-2 was The Reems.
3rd could have been Werdum had he not spent the majority of the round on his back. 

JUDGING CRITERIA

*Shots landed*. - Werdum landed a higher volume of shots, BUT Overeem landed the more damaging power shots. Listen to the knee and left hook to the liver. Werdum yelps out in pain and immediately reacts and counters. Those blows take away energy and no wonder he was getting tired.

*Damage of shots.* - Overeem
*Cage control.* - Overeem
*Agression.* - Interestingly enough probably Overeem. He was stalking Werdum. Werdum would throw wild shots and charge em or flop backwards otherwise he would have been cornered.
*Takedowns.* - All Overeem.
*Top control*. - All Overeem.

If you look at it Werdum might have had at two out of the six criterias at best.


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## MMAnWEED (Aug 8, 2010)

If anything this shows that a striker vs a jiu jitsu guy with bad takedowns always serves as a terrible fight.


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

For those who honestly think Werdum won the fight, consider two points of contention:

1. If Werdum really was getting the better of the striking exchanges, then why didn't he remain standing and outstrike Overeem to a victory instead of flopping to the ground repeatedly?

2. If I kick somebody once and then lie on the ground for for ten minutes, can you honestly say that I won the fight? That's just embarassing, doesn't accomplish anything, and goes against the whole purpose of a fight which is to hurt your opponent.


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## TMNT (Jun 19, 2011)

One thing I don't think has been talked about is how terrible Werdum's bjj looked. With the exception of the knee bar attempt he looked absolutely terrible on the ground. Didn't advance position or really do anything at all. Didn't close his guard even which kept baffling me.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

I rewatched it right after it was over and then re-watched again today and from what I saw just about every claim you make is false or perception, I thought the ground was a tie and quite easy to call it a tie to boot.

Standing Werdum landed more and heaver than Reem in the first.

The second to me was the closest of the three rounds. If you give it to reem, I wont make that big of a deal about it.

The third round was Werdum in the end as well. He landed the more significant strikes backing Overeem up frequently.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

closed guard is more for control, he wanted Overeem to posture up and give him room to work which is precisely why Overeem stayed in close and centered.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

No_Mercy said:


> .
> 
> *NOTE* The Reem had cage control majority of the three rounds. Werdum was cornered so he had to flop back or rush in to try to set up takedowns. All to no avail.
> 
> Overeem post fight interview. "Fabricio should be ashamed."


All I know is octagon control is a secondary scoring criteria to effective striking and grappling and we already know no matter how ugly it was, everyone but a few realizes that was Werdum.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

I think this will mark the first time Toxic is tempted to use Fightmetric to justify his argument.


The compustrike they put up after the fight was hilarious. Werdum was the winner by numbers everywhere.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> I think this will mark the first time Toxic is tempted to use Fightmetric to justify his argument.
> 
> 
> The compustrike they put up after the fight was hilarious. Werdum was the winner by numbers everywhere.


The Compustrike stats only relate a small portion of the scoring criteria, though. You won't find aggression or octagon control in the numbers.


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> Stop with your bullshit. You directly called me a nob head in one of the other threads post jds/carwin and you tell me to lighten up? Don't call me a nob head and not expect me to retaliate. You weren't having fun, I cba digging up your other post but you were clearly being very serious and directly insulted me. Now you're trying to manipulate this entire situation and turn it around. You're an A grade twat.
> 
> YOU instigated this, not me. BiPolar?
> 
> ...


Girls, girls... you're both pretty. 

Seriously, McKeever, No matter what Canadian Psycho may have said your reply is full of so much butthurt you sound like choirboy after church camp. Calm down, take some prozac, and realize that humiliating him or deriding his fight calling skills will neither increase the size of your penis nor dull the pain of Overeem's craptacular performance. 

If all it takes for you to snap is for someone to call you a nob head you must spend a good portion of your life pissed off and doing your best to humiliate people. Get over it, man. People will call you names. Live with it. It happens. If the worst thing you get called today is a nob head it's a good day. It may also be a day spent around 12 year olds from the sound of it.


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## TMNT (Jun 19, 2011)

Toxic said:


> closed guard is more for control, he wanted Overeem to posture up and give him room to work which is precisely why Overeem stayed in close and centered.


I understand that but Reem could just get up at will like a walk in the park. Fair enough work the open guard but close it when Reem looks to get to his feet. For all the talk about Fabricio's Bjj it looked terrible.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

HexRei said:


> The Compustrike stats only relate a small portion of the scoring criteria, though. You won't find aggression or octagon control in the numbers.


One of those two Werdum won easily would be aggression. I'd also argue that he won control as well, due to his aggression.


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

TraMaI said:


> One of those two Werdum won easily would be aggression. *I'd also argue that he won control as well, due to his aggression.*


Wait, you mean constantly getting tossed on your ass like someone's 7 yr old sister = taking control?


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

TraMaI said:


> One of those two Werdum won easily would be aggression. I'd also argue that he won control as well, due to his aggression.


I disagree. Constantly buttflopping, buttscooting, laying there, and begging your opponent (literally) to drop into your guard is the exact opposite of aggression, it's passivity. He moved forward on his feet sometimes, but completely negated that with everything else he did in the fight.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Soojooko said:


> I lost count of the amount of time Werdum took forever to get to his feet. Why was he allowed to get away with it over and over again? Clear time wasting and an attempt to recover.
> 
> One was not imbressed.


Lack of a good ref. Herb or John would have been on that shit like a fat kid on a cupcake and werdum much more likely would have been DQed or KOed.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

*Finally watched the fight. SW's INPUT!! the only input that matters. *

Waaaaoooooow what an insult to the sport. The crap Werdum pulled is on the level of Kalib Starnes IMO. The only difference is that Kalib ran away standing and Werdum managed to find a way to run away sitting. Werdum didnt come to fight, im not sure what he came to do, but, it wasnt to fight. He laid down, begged, stalled, rested during rounds, abused the rules and most of all insulted all of MMA's athletes. He made MMA fighters look lazy which is a true shame seeing as how some of these fighters train. I was hoping that the UFC would look past their beef and bring Werdum back into the UFC but now i want nothing more then for Werdum to suffer the wrath of Dana White.

On to the judging.

It seems to be 50/50 on whether Werdum won the fight or lost it. The people who think Werdum won (I wanna insult you really bad but i wont since this is my favorite mma forum) must not understand the judging criteria very well. If i used the logic you guys use, a guy throws a leg kick and then runs away the whole fight, he would be the winner because he landed more kicks. That logic is absurd and doesn't belong in any kind of fighting sport. You CANNOT win a fight by fighting 25% of the round and stalling the rest/ getting thrown around. Put it simply, you have to fight to win a fight. If i didnt think Werdum is at the peak of his career i would say that he came to simply collect a paycheck. (Which if i had the option i would not give him one since he did NOT do his job)

Overeem had octagon control
Overeem had the more effective striking
Overeem defended takedowns very well
Overeem slammed Werdum down at will (Takedown points)

There is absolutely no category i can give to Werdum. If anything he should have have been deducted a point in 2 of the 3 rounds. Striking is also based on being "Effective" and Werdum did strikes to set up takedowns which failed every-time and did not do any damage. With that in mind, and also remembering Werdums sleeping during rounds i would go as far as to make the rounds 10-8 and a GOOD referee would have given a point deduction which would make it 10-7. Only thing Werdum did that was good was take away 3min a round from Overeem so he does not have the opportunity to do more damage and finish the fight decisively. (Which im still in shock is not illegal/cheating)


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## Fard (Nov 5, 2010)

Even though I'm unsure why a new thread had to be opened (the title gives some hints), I pretty much agree with everything you said.:thumb03:
+rep


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## music5x5 (Jun 9, 2010)

HexRei said:


> I disagree. Constantly buttflopping, buttscooting, laying there, and begging your opponent (literally) to drop into your guard is the exact opposite of aggression, it's passivity. He moved forward on his feet sometimes, but completely negated that with everything else he did in the fight.


Agree. I find it funny that some people think Werdum should have won.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

Trai is right here dudes. EVERYONE needs to rewatch the flight. He may have pulled gaurd a lot but more than half of the fight was on the feet. And when the fight was on the feet Werdum was pressing forward landing big shots and combinations making Overeem cover up and take his own evasive action.

Jiu jitsu is just as legit as boxing so why isn't Overeem being chastised for not fighting in Werdum's favorite position? Werdum was HAPPY to engage him on the feet and outstrike him on the feet for the first and (arguably third) round. Why couldn't Overeem show his dominance and throw some kicks while Werdum was down or anything?

The level of idiocrasy in this thread is so high I can't believe it. I have Overeem winning and I understand how the fight could be perceived. But if you watch it again and break it down. MOST of the fight was Werdum attacking with heavy combinations and backing Overeem up before being pushed to the ground where Overeem refused to follow anyways.

Werdum would then get back up attack again and try to take it back to the ground again. Stupid plan yes, I won't argue but anyone comparing this to Kalin Starnes deserves to be banned for a few days and given time to reflect on the fight for what it was actually worth.

People are out right negating the fact that pulling guard has ALLWAYS been a legitimate strategy. He over used it but you can't compare it to running away because it's a tactile judgement used to set up a more versatile attack.

SCIENCE BITCHES!


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## TMNT (Jun 19, 2011)

Emericanaddict said:


> People are out right negating the fact that pulling guard has ALLWAYS been a legitimate strategy. He over used it but you can't compare it to running away because it's a tactile judgement used to set up a more versatile attack.
> 
> SCIENCE BITCHES!



Pulling guard = legitimate
Flopping to guard with zero chance of bringing opponent with you = useless


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## pipe (Jun 15, 2008)

Werdum should have stayed on his feet, he was landing more strikes tham the Reem. His stand up has improved alot during his career.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

TraMaI said:


> One of those two Werdum won easily would be aggression. I'd also argue that he won control as well, due to his aggression.


Werdum lost in EVERY SINGLE category.

Dont be this thick headed... i know your not a stupid guy. You know and everyone else knows that Overeem won that fight. Dont purposely act thick headed please.



Emericanaddict said:


> Trai is right here dudes. EVERYONE needs to rewatch the flight. He may have pulled gaurd a lot but more than half of the fight was on the feet. And when the fight was on the feet Werdum was pressing forward landing big shots and combinations making Overeem cover up and take his own evasive action.
> 
> Jiu jitsu is just as legit as boxing so why isn't Overeem being chastised for not fighting in Werdum's favorite position? *Werdum was HAPPY to engage him on the feet and outstrike him on the feet* for the first and (arguably third) round. Why couldn't Overeem show his dominance and throw some kicks while Werdum was down or anything?
> 
> ...


Are you kidding me?? Whatever you are taking you need to get off it and QUICK. It is obviously eating away at your brain.

Werdum was ANYTHING but happy to engage Overeem on the feet. Werdum would throw a few punches and as soon Overeem cocks back, Werdum would fall to his ass and beg for Overeem to come down.
Pulling guard and falling to your ass are complete different things. Pulling guard is if you have a hold of someone and you decide to fall to your back forcing him to go down with you. What Werdum did was lay down without any chance of taking Overeem with him and beg for Overeem to follow him down.
The reason no one is bitching at Overeem for not fighting Werdum on the ground is because Overeem was ABLE to 100% keep the fight standing. It is Werdums job to take Overeem down and keep him there long enough to submit him. The equivalent of what Werdum did would be if Werdum would take Overeem down and then Overeem would spit his mouth piece out in the hopes that the Referee would stand them back up. 
Lets not forget the fact that Werdum would purposely cheat the rules and get up extra slow so he can rest.
How you can possibly believe that Overeem not going to the floor is the same as Werdum napping during the fight is beyond me.

*You are right at 1 thing though, the level of idiocy in this thread is astounding, and you are at the center of it.*


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

TMNT said:


> Pulling guard = legitimate
> Flopping to guard with zero chance of bringing opponent with you = useless


Pretty much how I viewed it. Werdum looked ridiculous. Horrible fight to watch, they both looked terrible tbh although Overeem took it handily. Yes Werdum pressed forward at certain points but as SOON as Overeem fired back he dropped onto his back like a fish out of water and literally begged Reem to follow him. I did not enjoy watching that fight at all.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

How many bans will be handed out in this thread by the end? Lol


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Emericanaddict said:


> Trai is right here dudes. EVERYONE needs to rewatch the flight. He may have pulled gaurd a lot but more than half of the fight was on the feet. And when the fight was on the feet Werdum was pressing forward landing big shots and combinations making Overeem cover up and take his own evasive action.
> 
> Jiu jitsu is just as legit as boxing so why isn't Overeem being chastised for not fighting in Werdum's favorite position?


This has nothing to do with BJJ vs boxing so I can't imagine why you're bringing it up. If you want it on the ground you need to impose your will and take the fight there. You don't fall down and ask your opponent to kindly go to the ground with you. That's passivity and should reflect poorly on the aggression and control criteria and yes, could even be considered stalling or a foul under Timidity and Avoiding Contact with Opponent if you're doing it intentionally over and over.



> The level of *idiocrasy* in this thread is so high I can't believe it. I have Overeem winning and I understand how the fight could be perceived. But if you watch it again and break it down. MOST of the fight was Werdum attacking with heavy combinations and backing Overeem up before being pushed to the ground where Overeem refused to follow anyways.
> 
> Werdum would then get back up attack again and try to take it back to the ground again. Stupid plan yes, I won't argue but anyone comparing this to Kalin Starnes deserves to be banned for a few days and given time to reflect on the fight for what it was actually worth.
> 
> ...


Nice made up word, mr scientist  Pulling guard is a legit strategy. But if you think falling down and laying there motioning for your opponent to get down between your legs is pulling guard, perhaps you need to take a BJJ class or something. Cause it's not.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> Werdum lost in EVERY SINGLE category.
> 
> Dont be this thick headed... i know your not a stupid guy. You know and everyone else knows that Overeem won that fight. Dont purposely act thick headed please.
> 
> ...


Dude I thought you were above this shit. First off watch the personal attacks. Im stating facts there have been gif's posted that back them off. Im not denying anything that happened or didn't happen. SOME however are blowing shit way out of proportion and discounting an entire fight style.

Im not saying it didn't lead to him stalling later on but come on man. How can you criticise a man for actually fighting. Overeem didn't fight AT ALL. He only engaged a little when forced into it by Werdum.

Your right it was werdum's job to submit him WHICH HE ACTIVELY WAS TRYING TO DO! He constantly TRIED to force the fight to the ground and TRIED to get Overeem to engage. But WTF your giving the dude a hard time for actually fighting. Im not saying he didn't look like shit but at least he was throwing punches and attempting to make a fight of things early on.

You keep going on about how Werdum was cheating but that shit never happened either. Overeem could have bum rushed him at any moment when Werdum was in the process of getting up. Yes he was labored in doing so but there's nothing in the rules that expressly states hat he can't. It's not like he was taking 10 seconds or longer man. He was tired and worn out.

The point is you guys are treating the dude like shit FOR PUTTING HIS HEALTH ON THE LINE TO ENTERTAIN YOU. This is his job and it's in a very public forum. The balls it takes to do this man's job are incomprehensible and I just dont think any of us are in a place to criticise.

I'd also like to point out that im not arguing that Werdum won the fight. Ive stated several times I felt Overeem took the fight. It was ugly as hell but that's what you get sometimes. Im just trying to lay out the facts and get people to stop making a big deal out of this shit. Watch the fight again and if your not pleased with it go watch kick boxing matches for the rest of your life.

This is MMA and you know what your in for when you turn it on so I don't want to hear people bitching about a known quantity.

Please tell me exactly how I am idiotic for just trying to give both guy's there due's?



HexRei said:


> This has nothing to do with BJJ vs boxing so I can't imagine why you're bringing it up. If you want it on the ground you need to impose your will and take the fight there. You don't fall down and ask your opponent to kindly go to the ground with you. That's passivity and should reflect poorly on the aggression and control criteria and yes, could even be considered stalling or a foul under Timidity and Avoiding Contact with Opponent if you're doing it intentionally over and over.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice made up word, mr scientist  Pulling guard is a legit strategy. But if you think falling down and laying there motioning for your opponent to get down between your legs is pulling guard, perhaps you need to take a BJJ class or something. Cause it's not.


Sorry for the double post but please stop acting like a child.

Idiocracy-Nouneculiarity of constitution; that temperament, or state of constitution, which is peculiar to a person; idiosyncrasy.

http://www.websters-online-dictiona...of=FORID:9&ie=UTF-8&q=IDIOCRACY&sa=Search#922

Hopefully you realise my posts are pertaining the first round as stated SEVERAL times over the course of my posts in this thread.

He did start flopping later on no denying it but that's not what I have been talking about. 

Stop trying to make things personal and stay on topic. I haven't tried to insult you so I expect you to treat me with the same level of respect.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

Sorry for the double post.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Werdum won that fight and the only reason a small faction wont admit it is because they dont want someone to be able to flop like that and still win, well sorry but get over it! The ref could have took points or gave warnings and the strategy worked, he scored more, he landed more, he landed more power shots and basically he outpointed Overeem in every aspect of MMA now if you want to ignore those facts, then you can say Overeem won.

And how people can claim to have a superior argument when we know the stats dont support it but there opinion is suppose to override facts?


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

slapshot said:


> Werdum won that fight and the only reason a small faction wont admit it is because they dont want someone to be able to flop like that and still win, well sorry but get over it! *The ref could have took points or gave warnings and the strategy worked, he scored more, he landed more, he landed more power shots and basically he outpointed Overeem in every aspect of MMA* now if you want to ignore those facts and you people they are facts, then you can say Overeem won.


You do know that striking damage is only 1 of the 4 criteria, right?

-Clean Strikes
-Effective Grappling
-Octagon Control
-Effective Aggressiveness

Werdum's buttflopping cost him the last two criteria easily. Effective grappling is up in the air since neither did much effective grappling.



Emericanaddict said:


> Sorry for the double post but please stop acting like a child.
> 
> Idiocracy-Nouneculiarity of constitution; that temperament, or state of constitution, which is peculiar to a person; idiosyncrasy.


What does that word have to do with what you were trying to say? I got the impression you actually meant "idiocy" as in, "people in this thread are saying dumb stuff". Did you actually mean "the level of quirkiness in this thread is so high" (which is what your statement would have meant had the word you linked been what you meant to say?)




> http://www.websters-online-dictiona...of=FORID:9&ie=UTF-8&q=IDIOCRACY&sa=Search#922
> 
> Hopefully you realise my posts are pertaining the first round as stated SEVERAL times over the course of my posts in this thread.
> 
> ...


First of all, I was completely on topic. Second, so far the only insults thrown were you yelling SCIENCE BITCHES at everyone else in thread and then telling me im acting like a child.

Anyway the first round was only slightly less embarrassing for Werdum as Overeem stuffed like five of his takedowns in the first 1:30. Werdum was already up to his antics as he forward-rolled toward Overeem on the ground at 4:00 and was never in any rush to stop resting and get up. Overeem took him down when he felt like it, several times, Werdum didn't succeed in a single shot and was already gesturing to Overeem to jump into his guard. I will give you that Werdum legit pulled guard two or three times.

I also think Overeem did more damage with his punch at 1:20 that dropped Werdum than Werdum's little slapping strikes did to Reem the whole round.

Last, I'm not sure how I was supposed to know you meant ONLY the first round when in your post you talked about the whole fight and all three rounds several times (including in the same sentence where you mentioned pulling guard).


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

Overeem won.... that's that.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

HexRei said:


> You do know that striking damage is only 1 of the 4 criteria, right?
> 
> -Clean Strikes
> -Effective Grappling
> ...


First off you weren't on topic you went out of your way to try and make me look bad. I know the rod I used and I know how I used it. It's not down to you to determine what I meant when the definition is clear. 

Secondly the Science bitches thing was not an insult nor was it directed at any individuals. It was me being funny, I'm a bit obsessed with Joey Diaz ( Joe Rogan's Comdeian friend) at the moment and thats just something he would say. It literally meant nothing

Thirdly I asked you to stop acting like a child because you were attacking me for something that has no relevance to the conversation in order to boost your ego in an attempt to put me down.

You are right however that two wrongs don't make a right so I apologise if I came off as rude.

Your insult came from your attempt to publicly trump me which you failed to do. Not only did you fail to do so the first time by claiming that the word was made up. But you failed now harder by changing what you meant.

You were supposed to know I meant the 1st round by actually reading the posts of the member who you were responding to. I've stated in several previous posts that I felt Overeem won and that Werdum took the first round.

I see where my post became confusing but I assumed you had been reading the thread from the beginning.

Just so no one is confused I'll state it again. Overeem won the fight. But I strongly feel that the criticism being hurled at Werdum is mostly unfounded.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Emericanaddict said:


> Dude I thought you were above this shit. First off watch the personal attacks. Im stating facts there have been gif's posted that back them off. Im not denying anything that happened or didn't happen. SOME however are blowing shit way out of proportion and discounting an entire fight style.
> 
> Im not saying it didn't lead to him stalling later on but come on man. How can you criticise a man for actually fighting. Overeem didn't fight AT ALL. He only engaged a little when forced into it by Werdum.
> 
> ...


You keep saying that Werdum came to fight BUT that does not make it true. InFACT the EXACT OPPOSITE of that is true. Every time the fight started to pick up and Overeem would start throwing, Werdum would lay down on his back. You do know which one Werdum is and which one Overeem is? right?. The guy that was laying on his back sleeping and begging for Overeem to bang him is Werdum. The guy that was standing the whole time trying to get some exchanges going is Overeem. So your not "Dumb" but you are somewhat handicapped in the portion of the brain that controls common sense and observation. 

Also
Werdum was cheating. When Overeem tells the ref to bring Werdum up then Overeem isnt allowed to as you say "Bum Rush" him. If you can tell the Ref jumps in between them when he does this. So Overeem is stuck waiting and watching Werdum take his sweet freaking time getting up because he doesnt have the cardio of a real athlete. It was an insult to the Referee, the sport and most of all the fans. Any decent Ref would have deducted a point and if it continued happening possibly DQ him. You cant get a break whenever you feel like it just because you are tired, you can do that in BETWEEN rounds. 

So watch the fight again and this time keep in mind that OVEREEM is the muscular guy that was standing up ready to trade blows and Werdum is the out of shape guy that would FLOP like a school girl every time he saw a punch coming his way. And then would get up slow as possible so he can disrespect every single person that watched that fight.

BTW
I know what MMA is. You must not know what it is. Because laying on your back begging a big muscular dude to come and bang you isnt MMA, im not sure what that is. BTW i do enjoy Kickboxing and you know what i enjoy even more then that?? Wrestling. What Werdum demonstrated was an utter lack of wrestling knowledge, and a NEW way to throw a flurry and make sure when you are done the other guy doesnt get a chance to do the same.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Emericanaddict said:


> First off you weren't on topic you went out of your way to try and make me look bad. I know the rod I used and I know how I used it. It's not down to you to determine what I meant when the definition is clear.


 We both know you didn't mean "quirky".



> Secondly the Science bitches thing was not an insult nor was it directed at any individuals. It was me being funny, I'm a bit obsessed with Joey Diaz ( Joe Rogan's Comdeian friend) at the moment and thats just something he would say. It literally meant nothing


 Oh, ok.



> Thirdly I asked you to stop acting like a child because you were attacking me for something that has no relevance to the conversation in order to boost your ego in an attempt to put me down.


 I didn't attack you at all unless you mean when I suggested you take a BJJ class, but I was being sincere at the time, and not attacking you.



> Your insult came from your attempt to publicly trump me which you failed to do. Not only did you fail to do so the first time by claiming that the word was made up. But you failed now harder by changing what you meant.


 Publicly trump you? "Idiocrasy" is not a real word. That's all I meant.



> You were supposed to know I meant the 1st round by actually reading the posts of the member who you were responding to. I've stated in several previous posts that I felt Overeem won and that Werdum took the first round.


 Well, when you start talking about the whole fight and other rounds, people are going to assume you're talking about the whole fight, or other rounds.



> I see where my post became confusing but I assumed you had been reading the thread from the beginning.


 I really don't have time to memorize all of every thread I read.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> You keep saying that Werdum came to fight BUT that does not make it true. InFACT the EXACT OPPOSITE of that is true. Every time the fight started to pick up and Overeem would start throwing, Werdum would lay down on his back. You do know which one Werdum is and which one Overeem is? right?. The guy that was laying on his back sleeping and begging for Overeem to bang him is Werdum. The guy that was standing the whole time trying to get some exchanges going is Overeem. So your not "Dumb" but you are somewhat handicapped in the portion of the brain that controls common sense and observation.
> 
> Also
> Werdum was cheating. When Overeem tells the ref to bring Overeem up then Overeem isnt allowed to as you say "Bum Rush" him. If you can tell the Ref jumps in between them when he does this. So Overeem is stuck waiting and watching Werdum take his sweet freaking time getting up because he doesnt have the cardio of a real athlete. It was an insult to the Referee, the sport and most of all the fans. Any decent Ref would have deducted a point and if it continued happening possibly DQ him. You cant get a break whenever you feel like it just because you are tired, you can do that in BETWEEN rounds.
> ...


My entire post was just deleted by my stupid computer. Basically just can't be bothered with this whole argument. Just gonna agree to disagree on this one.I win by getting out of this headache of a thread though.

I think everyone needs to acknowledge that neither fighter really deserves praise for this fit though. Respect yes but praise....no.

To Hex Rei all I can ask is that you stop acting like a child. 

The back and forth needs to end. It has no benefit to the discussion at hand and should not have been started by a mod to begin with. 

Your perception of what I mean isn't what should be being discussed in this thread. 

I showed you the word in the dictionary so it obviously exists and the definition fits the way I used it.

Regardless though, as i said a moent ago this is a useless topic so lets just move on. And keep the thread going.

Keep being a quality member homie.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Emericanaddict said:


> My entire post was just deleted by my stupid computer. Basically just can't be bothered with this whole argument. Just gonna agree to disagree on this one.I win by getting out of this headache of a thread though.
> 
> I think everyone needs to acknowledge that neither fighter really deserves praise for this fit though. Respect yes but praise....no.


What did Overeem do wrong?? If Werdum was having such high success on the feet then why flop to his back??? Overeem stood there and wanted to trade while Werdum wanted to do half assed take down attempts and when it didnt work he wanted to lay on his back and beg Overeem to bang him. Overeem not being that type of "guy" would ask him to get back up so they can start trading punches again but then Werdum would get horny again and lay on his back with his ass high in the air and ask for Overeem to bang him again.

Overeem did what he could do with what he had to work with.

Yes im partly kidding because the idea of Werdum coming to fight is soo stupid and funny to me that i cannot help but make a joke out of it. My point is clear even in joking format. 

You are wrong and that is Fact. Im glad you win by getting rid of this headache. You could have avoided the headache all together though if you just kept ludicrous opinions to yourself.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

SideWays222 said:


> What did Overeem do wrong?? If Werdum was having such high success on the feet then why flop to his back??? Overeem stood there and wanted to trade while Werdum wanted to do half assed take down attempts and when it didnt work he wanted to lay on his back and beg Overeem to bang him. Overeem not being that type of "guy" would ask him to get back up so they can start trading punches again but then Werdum would get horny again and lay on his back with his ass high in the air and ask for Overeem to bang him again.
> 
> Overeem did what he could do with what he had to work with.
> 
> ...


It's done bro you win the internetz. I'm not trying to be a dick to you bro so let's please let this thread move along with real discussion. Take it easy bro alright no reason for anyone to be hateful over this. The forum isn't for this stuff. Let's just keep it civil from now on all right. We both got out of hand.


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

This thread has given me a headache. Can we all agree that the fight was shit, both fighters looked like shit - for whatever reason -, and that the whole affair is too stupid for us all to revert to 10 year olds running around calling each other names? If you want to call somebody names call Overeem or Werdum something. They're the ones who put on the whole terrible affair that they had the audacity to call a match. Neither deserved that win.

One point - Werdum did not cheat. He didn't break the rules. It may have been shady and taking advantage of certain rules but it was not cheating. It was, however, really annoying.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

HexRei said:


> You do know that striking damage is only 1 of the 4 criteria, right?
> 
> -Clean Strikes
> -Effective Grappling
> ...


You do know the criteria works in tiers and Werdum controlled the cage most of the first and third. I would also argue that because of his striking Werdum won the "effective aggressiveness" if he wasn't winning the striking he was flopping and that counts for Overeem how?

I thought they both looked like crap Werdum outscored Overeem and he looked bad doing it, he did however still win.

You can try and slice it into a million pieces but at the end of the day Overeem lost the most important part of stand up fighting he lost the striking, he threw less and was less effective when he landed and it was clear on reems face the punches where effective and Werdum was able to back him up repeatedly.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

deadmanshand said:


> This thread has given me a headache. Can we all agree that the fight was shit, both fighters looked like shit - for whatever reason -, and that the whole affair is too stupid for us all to revert to 10 year olds running around calling each other names? If you want to call somebody names call Overeem or Werdum something. They're the ones who put on the whole terrible affair that they had the audacity to call a match. Neither deserved that win.
> 
> One point - Werdum did not cheat. He didn't break the rules. It may have been shady and taking advantage of certain rules but it was not cheating. It was, however, really annoying.


Well i wont Neg you back since you had balls to leave your name unlike most people, i can appreciate character.

Yes it wasnt cheating according to THAT referee but it should have been. I am shocked that in MMA the rules allow you to clearly abuse the rules infront of the referee just so you can get a breather. I want to say that in the official mma rules it states "Stalling not allowed" but i dont know that for certain. I also imagine it says something in there about listening to a referee in a fast and timely manner. And even if it doesnt, it does not change a damn thing to me. What Werdum did to me was cheating because you are not allowed to rest unti the round finishes. To take extra time to get up because you are tired to me is cheating. No different then greasing up before a fight. Im smart enough to know what it was even if the rules dont. Werdum doesn't get a pass on my end.




slapshot said:


> You do know the criteria works in tiers and Werdum controlled the cage most of the first and third. I would also argue that because of his striking Werdum won the "effective aggressiveness" if he wasn't winning the striking he was flopping and that counts for Overeem how?
> 
> I thought they both looked like crap Werdum outscored Overeem and he looked bad doing it, he did however still win.
> 
> You can try and slice it into a million pieces but at the end of the day Overeem lost the most important part of stand up fighting he lost the striking, he threw less and was less effective when he landed and it was clear on reems face the punches where effective and Werdum was able to back him up repeatedly.


Werdum controlled the cage?? Did you even watch the fight? Over most of the time Overeem stalked werdum down and when he did grab him he tossed him down like a childs toy. Overeem takes Octagon Control and that is not even up for debate. Werdum also could NOT take Overeem down which accounts for dictating where the fight takes place. The striking Overeem took because every 1 punch Overeem threw hurt Werdum so bad that he had to drop to the floor so he doesn't get pummeled. Werdums punches on the other hand didn't as much make Overeem blink. Also everytime Werdum flopped that helps Overeem since it means Werdum is on the defensive and not doing anything AND that Overeem is "Effective" in his striking since Werdum seems to have the need to collapse each time Overeem throws a punch. (Without an attempt to take Overeem down with him, it turns from a takedown "attempt" to being being hurt and doing what he can to avoid more punishment). (Am i reaching??? Sure. But not any more then you are reaching in EVERY SINGLE POST you have made). :thumb02:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

It is really sad that people are still claiming Werdum won the striking and that Overeem had bad defense.

In MMA the tight high guard doesn't block straight punches very well but it shields your chin and temples so it is very effective against hooks and overhands. Werdum has horrendous punching technique. Straight punches are far more dependent on technique to generate power than hooks and overhands. Werdum has little power on his straights because of this and Overeem forced him into throwing them by utilizing the high guard because they weren't hurting him and it takes less energy and puts him in less danger of both strikes and takedowns than trying to remain elusive and jumping in and out of the pocket.

He was using far more movement against Rogers and Duffee because those guys don't suck horribly at throwing punches like Werdum and he didn't care as much about getting taken down by either of them because he is vastly superior to them at BJJ. Overeem repeatedly landed clean knees to the liver on Werdum and multiple hooks to the head those do a hell of a lot more damage than flipping your hand a guys forehead which is what Werdum was doing. Hell Werdum got dropped in one round with a knee to the head people just missed it because he was flopping every time Overeem hit him.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

slapshot said:


> You do know the criteria works in tiers and *Werdum controlled the cage most of the first and third.* I would also argue that because of his striking Werdum won the "effective aggressiveness" if he wasn't winning the striking he was flopping and that counts for Overeem how?


IMHO, you simply cannot say he 'controlled the cage' for ANY ROUND because he did NOT take the fight where he wanted it... It only ever went to the ground because Reem took it there...not because Werdum brought him to the ground.

The key word in 'effective aggressiveness' is EFFECTIVE... which was missing from Werdum's entire fight time. 

You cant clump in 'effective aggressiveness' INTO 'clean strikes'... they are separate categories for a reason.

Even if we say that he had 'clean strikes'... there was never a time those strikes put Reem at risk... and even if there was an occassion that they might have hurt Reem, it was overshadowed by Werdum flopping to his back... and he has himself to blame for that. 

It should be blatantly obvious that Werdum spent more time on his back than doing his 'clean striking' so its illogical to think this should mean Werdum won the 'EFFECTIVE aggressiveness'. You just can be 'effective' while begging a guy to fight to your strength. 



slapshot said:


> I thought they both looked like crap Werdum outscored Overeem and he looked bad doing it, he did however still win.


I agree they both looked like crap.
I will give 'clean strikes' to Werdum for all 3 rounds if you like.
However, Werdum loses for effective grappling, octogon control, effective aggressiveness for all 3 rounds.



slapshot said:


> You can try and slice it into a million pieces but at the end of the day Overeem lost the most important part of stand up fighting he lost the striking, he threw less and was less effective when he landed and it was clear on reems face the punches where effective and Werdum was able to back him up repeatedly.


Disagree on effective ... backing up isnt a sign of being less effective... its like faulting a person for using head movement, you do what you gotta do to evade... backing up included.

No need to slice anything up... its real simple... flop to your back for the majority of the fight and beg for him to join you there... expect to LOSE.

Seriously, and the end of the first round it was clear that Werdum was gonna get shot down for a takedown... and his strategy then was... BEG (!?!?) ...seriously? WTF!


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

attention said:


> IMHO, you simply cannot say he 'controlled the cage' for ANY ROUND because he did NOT take the fight where he wanted it... It only ever went to the ground because Reem took it there...not because Werdum brought him to the ground.
> ...
> 
> It should be blatantly obvious that Werdum spent more time on his back than doing his 'clean striking' so its illogical to think this should mean Werdum won the 'EFFECTIVE aggressiveness'. You just can be 'effective' while begging a guy to fight to your strength.
> ...


Werdum took the fight exactly where he wanted it every time he pulled guard... Overeem never once went for a takedown, every time the fight went to the ground it was because Werdum wanted it too... When it did go to the ground yes Overeem was on top but he did nothing other then lay on Werdum hoping to not get subbed and then try and stand back up when the chance arose. 

Overeem "won" that fight by being strong and having Werdum pull himself onto him. He lost the striking in rounds 1 and 3 and did nothing other then stuff a couple takedown attempts and throw werdum to the ground a couple times. 

Werdum won the striking, dictated where the fight took place(yes Overeem was on top on the ground but Werdum was the one putting the fight there and was the one that was comfortable even though he was on bottom), was the aggressor(was the one wading in with punches and shooting for takedowns/pulling guard). The grappling should have been negligible because neither fighter did much, Werdum had a decent sub attempt in 3rd and Overeem had a couple nice takedown defenses. Sitting in guard is a neutral position and should not be scored

Fact is the judges should not have awarded Overeem the fight for laying in Werdum's guard because Overeem was not the one initiating that situation. Overeem wanted nothing to do with being in Werdum's guard but ended up being there multiple times against his will. He also got outstruck and spent most of the fight back peddling while standing or laying on Werdum trying to keep Werdum from getting any good submission attempts.

Edit: 


attention said:


> Disagree on effective ... backing up isnt a sign of being less effective... its like faulting a person for using head movement, you do what you gotta do to evade... backing up included.


Agree on this point EXCEPT, you have to do something after you block/evade. Overeem landed NOTHING of any more significance then Werdum did... His shots were glancing and he was constantly being backed up WITHOUT being able to land an effective counter punch.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

I'll just say one thing to everyone saying Werdum "won the striking" in any round. How exactly is Overeem supposed to put together a decent string of strikes, like ya know, a combo, when every time Overeem so much as connected Werdum fell to the ground and tried to pull guard. It was like watching bad footy; it drives me nuts watching those guys take dives and it pissed me off when Werdum did it for 3 rounds. How is Overeem supposed to be effective when every time he connects Werdum falls over like a sack of bricks. 

On top of that Werdum took it upon himself to purposefully stall the fight by getting up as slowly as he possibly could. 

This is MMA, not a grappling match. The fighters start standing up. Pulling guard is fine but if it isn't working you shouldn't be allowed to do it over and over to neutralize the stand up game of your opponent and ruin the fight. 

People say wrestlers have an advantage with being able to be on top and gain points? Well, strikers advantage has always been that the default position is standing. If Werdum needs every fight to get to the ground so badly he better find a more entertaining way of getting it there or he isn't going to have a fan or promoter in the world very interested in him.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

420atalon said:


> Werdum took the fight exactly where he wanted it every time he pulled guard...


I honestly dont know where you saw that :confused02:
I could understand if actually brought Reem WITH HIM, when he pulled guard... but he FAILED to bring Reem down him.

The bulk of the time Werdum falls back and starts waving and prayin, literally BEGGING Reem to 'cmon down'.

So I dont understand how you can say "Werdum took the fight exactly where he wanted it everytime he pulled guard"... then why was he begging and praying? Why would he do that if Reem was with him on the ground every single time. 



420atalon said:


> Overeem never once went for a takedown, every time the fight went to the ground it was because Werdum wanted it too...


He didnt have to ... Reem just chucked him aside and Werdum flopped to the ground... then Werdum would attempt to beg Reem to come to the ground, folding his hands in prayer and putting on a begging frown... egad, how does one give the round Werdum for that?



420atalon said:


> When it did go to the ground yes Overeem was on top but he did nothing other then lay on Werdum hoping to not get subbed and then try and stand back up when the chance arose.


Agreed, which made the ground game a complete write off... nothing happened there... but thats because Reem dictated that... which is why Reem controlled where the fight went... otherwise there would have been more action on the ground and it would be clear that Werdum was the one in control of the cage.



420atalon said:


> Overeem "won" that fight by being strong and having Werdum pull himself onto him. He lost the striking in rounds 1 and 3 and did nothing other then stuff a couple takedown attempts and throw werdum to the ground a couple times.


I believe that Werdum LOST that fight... because he failed to execute a decent game plan to get Reem to the ground and control him there. He attempted some wild strikes in the hope that Reem would follow him to the ground ... and Reem had none of it. 



420atalon said:


> Werdum won the striking, dictated where the fight took place(yes Overeem was on top on the ground but Werdum was the one putting the fight there and was the one that was comfortable even though he was on bottom), was the aggressor(was the one wading in with punches and shooting for takedowns/pulling guard). The grappling should have been negligible because neither fighter did much, Werdum had a decent sub attempt in 3rd and Overeem had a couple nice takedown defenses. Sitting in guard is a neutral position and should not be scored


I dont fault him for pulling guard, its part of his game plan...take him to the ground, submit his arse...
but when it fails ... he should STAND UP AGAIN...and TRY AGAIN. I fault him for not standing up after every single failed 'guard pull'... I fault him for begging his opponent to 'please, let me submit you', I fault him for making the entire fight look horrible for both of them.



420atalon said:


> Fact is the judges should not have awarded Overeem the fight for laying in Werdum's guard because Overeem was not the one initiating that situation. Overeem wanted nothing to do with being in Werdum's guard but ended up being there multiple times against his will. He also got outstruck and spent most of the fight back peddling while standing or laying on Werdum trying to keep Werdum from getting any good submission


The fact is Werdum didnt give the Judges enough to give the round to him... rather, he gave them reason to take it away from him.
Had Werdum NOT begged, NOT flopped to his back time and time again, had Werdum used different techniques to get Reem to the ground (even in failure) instead of the same thing over and over again... he could have given the Judges justification for taking each and every round.
Instead, we get this disgusting display of pleading with his opponent 'please sir, let me submit you'... please let me work my magic on the ground where I am at my strongest and you are at your weakest... UGH!


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

A few members need to relax and calm down.

If you can't discuss things in a civil manner, then don't discuss them at all and leave the thread.


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