# Comparing legacies: Anderson and Fedor



## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

> Twelve days ago, I would have said that Fedor Emelianenko was the best fighter in the history of mixed martial arts. Now, I'm not so sure. The combination of Anderson Silva's spectacular knockout of Vitor Belfort at UFC 126 and Fedor's loss to Antonio Silva a week later might force me to reconsider and pick Silva as the greatest in MMA history, and Fedor as No. 2.
> 
> It's a close call, and any argument about the best fighter in MMA history is rife with problems. The biggest problem being that there's not much history to MMA. It's a new sport, and it's a really new sport if you want to use an apples-to-apples comparison of fighters competing under modern rules with weight classes. In fact, I think the arguments about the best fighters in MMA history are so complex that I don't want to deal with them here.
> 
> ...


*Source: MMAFighting.com*

Just wanted to share this since I enjoyed reading it and it puts focus on a pressing matter... Silva is getting closer and closer to edging out Fedor as my personal GOAT. What would have to happen for you to give Anderson the edge?

BTW, if this thread belongs elsewhere, please move it


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

To be fair to Anderson Silva his two losses in pride consisted of being caught in a triangle, and then being caught in a ******* flying scissor heel hook in a fight he was dominating and close to stopping!

I think as far as pure fighting goes Anderson Silva has the better legacy - he has achieved more against generally stronger opponents in more devastating fashion than Fedor and provided me with more jar dropping moments.
However Fedor has impacted the sport more - He has the better legacy in terms of creating buzz around the sport and aiding its growth.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

edlavis88 said:


> To be fair to Anderson Silva his two losses in pride consisted of being caught in a triangle, and then being caught in a ******* flying scissor heel hook in a fight he was dominating and close to stopping!
> 
> I think as far as pure fighting goes Anderson Silva has the better legacy - he has achieved more against generally stronger opponents in more devastating fashion than Fedor and provided me with more jar dropping moments.
> However Fedor has impacted the sport more - He has the better legacy in terms of creating buzz around the sport and aiding its growth.


Anderson Silva facing better competition? Not really.. Both Fedor and Silva have faced lower quality opponents. More recent opponents that come into my mind for Anderson are Irvin,Leites and Maia. Sure Anderson moved up to LHW to fight Irvin but Anderson isn't exactly a small LHW...I think he might have even slightly been bigger than Irvin.

Not to mention that Fedor is a LHW fighting HWs. Put it into perspective, he is smaller than Rampage and Forrest Griffen.

I am not trying to take away anything from Silva but I think Fedor is ahead by a bit but with a win over GSP in dramatic fashion, I think Silva will have the better legacy at the end. In dramatic fashion I mean...he has to finish GSP. If Silva just cruises to a decision win like he did in the Maia fight... wins like that don't help his legacy. Fedor comes in to finish each and every fight.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

People don't realize that even "cans" or lower tiered fighters are still a threat. Just look at the Lakers losing to the Cavaliers. The difference is that there 50+ games in other sports. All it takes is one loss or win for that matter in MMA and it can alter the course of history. Imagine if Rampage never beat Chuck. Rampage was always his kryptonite. Imagine if Carlos Newton KOed Matt Hughes instead of the other way around. 

I for one have always been a proponent of both Fedor and Anderson as the GOATs. Especially the latter with the way he finishes. Fedor had calculated brute power and vicious GNP. Anderson has much more finesse. His finishes were "fatality" material with Flawless Victories!


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Anyone can pass anyone else, I mean the sport is young.

The term "GOAT" gets thrown out there (even by me), but in reality, you won't know that until the sport is completely, 100% finished. 20 years from now, there could be a 40-0 fighter tat destroyed all the top competition for a decade, and he'd take over both Fedor and Anderson.

So, GOAT is just a wrong term to use at this stage in the sport, however, you can say who is the most accomplished up until this point in time, and as the article states, "*Fedor gave us a decade of unparalleled excellence*", and that Fedor gets the edge in the most accomplished in the last 10 years, which is true. As it is, Fedor was the champion and P4P fighter 3 years before Anderson even had a title in the UFC.

If Anderson keeps winning and winning and winning for two or so more years, he could very well pass Fedor up completely, but until then, he has not and is below Fedor in terms of wide scale.

Also, thread moved to General MMA.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Spec0688 said:


> Anderson Silva facing better competition? Not really.. Both Fedor and Silva have faced lower quality opponents. More recent opponents that come into my mind for Anderson are Irvin,Leites and Maia. Sure Anderson moved up to LHW to fight Irvin but Anderson isn't exactly a small LHW...I think he might have even slightly been bigger than Irvin.
> 
> Not to mention that Fedor is a LHW fighting HWs. Put it into perspective, he is smaller than Rampage and Forrest Griffen.
> 
> I am not trying to take away anything from Silva but I think Fedor is ahead by a bit but with a win over GSP in dramatic fashion, I think Silva will have the better legacy at the end. In dramatic fashion I mean...he has to finish GSP. If Silva just cruises to a decision win like he did in the Maia fight... wins like that don't help his legacy. Fedor comes in to finish each and every fight.


Pretty much every guy Silva's faced has come of (atleast) 3 wins, the last of which being like a #1 contender match. Like a 'tournament' eliminator, if you will. 

Fedor's opponents have been hand-picked by his management and haven't been the most impressive picks.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Not sure. As of right this instant I say Fedor. But Anderson is still going...and going strong...and he is older than Fedor is. 

Say he wins a couple more times, beating GSP in the process...no doubt in my mind that he is the best ever. He still has 3-4 high quality fights in him...he is still tha champ...something Fedor hasn't been in like 5 years. 

To me they have both faced about the same level of competition. Both have faced the best of their weight at one time. Thing about it is Anderson is STILL facing even his toughest tests. He is about to face a top P4P fighter. 

Fedor is right this second. Unless Anderson falls off his horse badly he will be soon. I'd rather lose early on and go out on top than lose at the end of my career and fade away.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

M.C said:


> ...So, GOAT is just a wrong term to use at this stage in the sport, however, you can say who is the most accomplished up until this point in time...


Lets called it the GUUN then, sounds kinda cool as well 

Greatest Up Until Now


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

LOL nice, I like it.

I'm going to start using it, you start using it, it'll be the new fad.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

M.C said:


> Anyone can pass anyone else, I mean the sport is young.
> 
> The term "GOAT" gets thrown out there (even by me), but in reality, you won't know that until the sport is completely, 100% finished. 20 years from now, *there could be a 40-0 fighter tat destroyed all the top competition for a decade*, and he'd take over both Fedor and Anderson.
> 
> ...


lol i thought you were talking about fedor xD

anyways my immensely long post failed to be posted x.X so.. ill just say i think fedor currently has the legacy of "the greatest"


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

M.C said:


> LOL nice, I like it.
> 
> I'm going to start using it, you start using it, it'll be the new fad.


Deal mate


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

Fedor has many impressive victories, but he didn't finish Cro Cop, didn't finish Nogueira and took some serious damage throughout his career while fighting #1 contenders, for example the cut in the second fight with NOG was severe, and let's not forget frequent blood loss and bruises. Fedor takes all his fights very seriously, trying to focus as much as possible, often gets in trouble but managed to win eventually, almost miraculously, practically every single fight he's been in.

Now Anderson has been unbelievably impressive in UFC. He didn't take former champions to UDs, he brutalized all of them starting with Franklin who seemed at that time almost unstoppable, then stopped double PRIDE champ, made Forrest look like an amateur and in between was toying with #1 contenders doing dancing moves instead of fighting and nonetheless opponents' faces looked like a mess in the end. Anderson is virtually untouchable. There were a few exceptional bouts when Anderson got in trouble, however he reversed the situations and got "W"s when nobody anticipated.

Anderson is older than Fedor, still the best fighter in the world and keeps smashing everyone UFC puts in front of him. Even when he dances, keeps hands very low, plays with his opponents, they still cannot do anything.

So I say Anderson Silva is the best fighter I've ever seen. I love all his fights including the one with Maia.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

edlavis88 said:


> To be fair to Anderson Silva his two losses in pride consisted of being caught in a triangle, and then being caught in a ******* flying scissor heel hook in a fight he was dominating and close to stopping!


I am an Anderson fan, but WTF were you watching? Anderson was a lot greener back then and he was nowhere close to stopping either of those fights. Both were very close going into the subs.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

The greener Silva versus the greener Fedor was far less dominant. Silva flurished later in his career. Fedor pretty much went on a slide!


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Fine Wine said:


> I am an Anderson fan, but WTF were you watching? Anderson was a lot greener back then and he was nowhere close to stopping either of those fights. Both were very close going into the subs.


Roll that beautiful bean footage


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

RustyRenegade said:


> Roll that beautiful bean footage


I'll have to rewatch this one.

Do you think this was a close one? And how about the other fight where he was subbed?


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Although another prominent member and myself disagree on who was winning the Chonan fight I think Ryo was winning. 

Couldn't find the full fight but as soon as I do I'll post it. As far as GUUN I'd say Fedor but Anderson is closing quickly if he hasn't passed him altogether.

Not that I think Fedor is/was better but the big fellas always get the pass since they'd win one on one.

Edit: Anderson did really well with strikes from the bottom and while standing so it's hard to say. Obviously the winner fought a great fight either way.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I think it's up for debate on who was winning that fight leading up to the flying heal hook. Silva is definately the more technical striker. Fedor however is probably the more powerful striker!


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Flying heel hook and definitely would be the correct pronunciation.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

FWIW I think I had Anderson slightly behind in both the fights he was subbed, though I do think both were close, by no means was he loosing easily.

He peaked later in his career and he definately suits the cage better where he has more room to move about. Makes it harder to take him down.


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## SonOfZion (Feb 14, 2011)

contrary to popular belief Silva wasnt really dominating Ryo, it was a pretty close fight and he was nowhere close to finishing Ryo.


Either way, you are talking 2 of the best ever, its so hard to say who is better when they are different weights.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, the two fighters can be argued as two of the best. Silva is a great fighter in his own right. Fedor was for the middle part of the sport!


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## SonOfZion (Feb 14, 2011)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, the two fighters can be argued as two of the best. Silva is a great fighter in his own right. Fedor was for the middle part of the sport!


 exactly, its like saying "who is better, Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali?"

there is no wrong answer.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, not unless they fought each other. In this case they never fought each other. Though Silva could probably hang with some heavyweights!


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

SonOfZion said:


> exactly, its like saying "who is better, Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali?"
> 
> there is no wrong answer.


lol I know what your saying, but that was a bad example.

Basically every single boxing historian (including Ali himself) had Robinson ahead of him.


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## SonOfZion (Feb 14, 2011)

Fine Wine said:


> lol I know what your saying, but that was a bad example.
> 
> Basically every single boxing historian (including Ali himself) had Robinson ahead of him.


 i do agree with you but most fans these days rank Ali ahead cuz they really dont know Sugar Ray that well.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Let's not forget Joe Louis. Either way you can't compare on that level. Boxers were good at their time and to compare isn't accurate!


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

SonOfZion said:


> i do agree with you but most fans these days rank Ali ahead cuz they really dont know Sugar Ray that well.


Yeh, the very casual fans perhaps, but most real boxing fans know Sugar Ray Robinson all to well. 

It was he the word 'entourage' was created for as far as it goes with a fighter and his cling ons (group of people that hang around him everywhere he goes) and it was he that the monika "Sugar" was created for in the first place, as well as he that the word and rankings "Pound for Pound" came about.

He has a lot to be famous for, not just the boxing but his dent on history and current fighting culture.


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## SonOfZion (Feb 14, 2011)

Fine Wine said:


> Yeh, the very casual fans perhaps, but most real boxing fans know Sugar Ray Robinson all to well.
> 
> It was he the word 'entourage' was created after as far as it goes with a fighter and his cling ons and it was he that created the monka "Sugar", as well as he that the word and rankings "Pound for Pound" came about.
> 
> He has a lot to be famous for, not just the boxing but his dent on history and current fighting culture.


 hell, he made Ray Charles change his name from Ray Robinson too!!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Did he make him change it out of convenience or out of battling?


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Let's not forget Joe Louis. Either way you can't compare on that level. Boxers were good at their time and to compare isn't accurate!


Well that is the difference between Ray Robinson and other fighters, he wasn't just good at his time, he was light years ahead of his time and probably still ahead of this time! He was not something you could replicate. He dominated the sport in the richest and most competitive part of it's history like nobody before or after him has ever done.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok, does Mike Tyson factor into this at all? Or is it betweeen Ali and Ray Robinson? An interesting fact though is that Ali is one of the men who fought Antonio Inoki in his MMA matches!


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Ok, does Mike Tyson factor into this at all? Or is it betweeen Ali and Ray Robinson? An interesting fact though is that Ali is one of the men who fought Antonio Inoki in his MMA matches!


Yeh, there are a lot who can be classified up there, I'm only mentioning Ali because it is commonly thought he is the greatest amongst casual fans.

That Ali MMA match was shocking, Inoki spent most of the time on the ground diving around like Aoki but scooting and Ali was just swinging off the ropes in the corners with a smile on his face. Looked more like Ali clowning around whilst taking a beating to his legs.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well one of the things about that match is that no one understood the importance of kicks. Also there were rules that prevented Inoki from grappling. It would've been a totally different match!


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Yeh, would have indeed been a different match, it looked more like just a show the way it was. From memory, Ali was wearing full boxing gloves also, not the 4oz ones MMA fighters wear now?

Ah well, that 'fight' doesn't mean much anyways.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, Ali's team had the rules changed at the last minute. You have to remember that was a style versus style match and I don't think MMA gloves existed back then. That fight was in the 70s!


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

For me.. when they all have retired, including GSP i would name GSP as the GOAT to be honest.


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## Notoriousxpinoy (Aug 26, 2007)

Fine Wine said:


> Yeh, the very casual fans perhaps, but most real boxing fans know Sugar Ray Robinson all to well.
> 
> It was he the word 'entourage' was created for as far as it goes with a fighter and his cling ons (group of people that hang around him everywhere he goes) and it was he that the monika "Sugar" was created for in the first place, as well as he that the word and rankings "Pound for Pound" came about.
> 
> He has a lot to be famous for, not just the boxing but his dent on history and current fighting culture.


Huge boxing fan. But SRR also was in an age where boxing also had a lot of padded fights(More so than today). As he fought in bar rooms against "Bar room" kind of fighters.

I'm not disagreeing with you but his "record" is highly padded. So to say he is so far ahead of Ali is a bit of an exaggeration.

Anyways.. Ali even agreed SRR is the best. So yeah..


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Boxing had padded fights at one point? That honestly doesn't surprise me that much. By the way, when you mean bar rooms you mean unskilled fighters correct?


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## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

Anderson Silva in my mind has a better legacy based on the fact that the best guys in his division that he has faced he has finished them. The best fighters that Fedor has faced Big Nog (twice) and Mirco Cro Cop he hasn't finished either of them. Fedor should have faced someone like Randy Couture (in his prime) the reason being that, if Fedor could beat Couture, one of the best wrestlers in MMA, he would have proven a lot. 

However, he didn't, the only wrestler he faced was Mark Coleman and I mean yes he finished him but Mark Coleman isn't close to the skill level of Couture. The majority of fighters than Fedor faced were all BJJ Black Belts or Boxing/Muay Thai fighters. He never faced a lot of wrestlers, I think that if Fedor faced wrestlers he would have a lot of problems.

Silva has beaten everyone, he beat all around fighters with all around skill levels (Nate Marquardt), he has beaten strong stand up fighters (Hendo, Franklin, Vitor, Cote), he has beaten BJJ fighters (Maia and Leites) and most importantly he has beaten wrestlers (Hendo and Sonnen). The fact is Silva has been the most dominant fighter in the past 4-5 years. Beating the best and the strongest fighters in his path. That is why I consider him the greatest MMA fighter.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, but in his green years Silva got taken out by two people he had no business loosing to. Not to mention when he fought Cro Cop he had a broken hand. Though the Randy fight would've been interesting!


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Notoriousxpinoy said:


> Huge boxing fan. But SRR also was in an age where boxing also had a lot of padded fights(More so than today). As he fought in bar rooms against "Bar room" kind of fighters.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing with you but his "record" is highly padded. So to say he is so far ahead of Ali is a bit of an exaggeration.
> 
> Anyways.. Ali even agreed SRR is the best. So yeah..


Well of course you cannot have 200 fights ALL against top opposition. Ray said himself he needed the lower calibre fighters to keep sharp for the bigger fights. 

But it is the pure talent he did beat in a LOT of big fights that nobody has ever done before or after him in any weight division.

Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Jake LaMotta, Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, Bobo Olson, Joey Maxim, Randy Turpin, Rocky Graziano and he fought most of them multiple times, winning all bar 1 fight against Lamotta whom he beat 5 subsequent times, who outweighed him by a large margin.

He then takes 3 years off completely from boxing, comes back as an old man, rusty as hell, out of his natural weight division, and fights and beats the likes of Gene Fulmer and Carmen Basilio.

Show me anybody who even comes close to that, nobody touches him, nobody even steps in the same realm. Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali and many many more have said the same thing. And Ray Robinson used to carry the bags of Joe Louise as a kid, with Louis being his idol.

I think the best explanation of Robinson was this one I heard, it goes something along the lines of this: "Ray Robinson was a genius. He wasn't the kind of guy who comes along and suddenly does things years ahead of his time, like a Charlie Parker, in which afterwards everybody starts doing the same thing. He was more comparable to a Shakespear, somebody who just comes along, and does things so incredible, that nobody can ever again replicate it. That is a genius".


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, but how many top MMA fighters do you see have a tune-up fight? The reason why GSP hasn't had very many finishes as of late is that he's up against top level competition constantly. Anderson Silva has had to face top guys to and chose not to finish them!


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, but how many top MMA fighters do you see have a tune-up fight? The reason why GSP hasn't had very many finishes as of late is that he's up against top level competition constantly. Anderson Silva has had to face top guys to and chose not to finish them!


Well they have the equivelent of tune-up fights in training these days, it's called sparring. 

Old school boxers would fight regularly, like a Tennis player today, as it kept them as sharp as possible. Not possible in modern day combat (boxing, MMA) with all the promotions that go along with a fight. 

Just a different outlook and era. But make no mistake, a lot of those guys back then were a LOT better than the level of boxer today or MMA fighter today. This was in a period when boxing was THE biggest sport on the planet. Imagine if in 50 years MMA is the biggest sport on the planet and all the best guys are fighting eachother, do you think GSP would be defending against Dan Hardy, or Silva against Cote, Franklin etc? No way, MMA is in it's infancy and a lot of their defences are against what will be a can in an era when it is the largest sport out there. There were many legendary fighters that never even got a title shot. Charlie Burley is just one I believe. So you can call their resumes 'padded' but they fought more legends than it's possible to fight today and even their 'tune ups' were against opposition that would hold a title in todays era. To fight more legends than any other boxer in history and loose just once is some feat indeed.


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## beardsleybob (Jan 3, 2010)

If the article is going to go by 10 year periods then in that case Silva can surpass Fedor by fighting for another 2 years, up to June 2013. That's 10 years after his loss by triangle choke. If he dominates more opponents until then it must be said that he's had a more impressive decade than Fedor.

SO basically what I mean is that this decade angle is bullshit and you judge fighters by their entire careers. Fedor isn't retiring so he could easily demolish another quarter finalist in the GP once it's over and then go after Werdum again. If he beat Werdum and say Barnett then what would that say? it would say that the article is totally knee jerk


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## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, but in his green years Silva got taken out by two people he had no business loosing to. Not to mention when he fought Cro Cop he had a broken hand. Though the Randy fight would've been interesting!


Well I'll give you the fight where he got subbed from the mount because Anderson underperformed and just got dominated. However, the fight with the flying scissor heel hook, that was just unbelievable. It was so unexpected and that fight could have easily had been stopped it was just really bad luck for Anderson because really Chonan executed the flying heel hook perfectly. Not to mention how many times is anyone going to try a flying scissor heel hook. It is a loss for Anderson but in my mind it doesn't make me doubt his skills at all. Fedor has also lost twice in a row definitely his legacy is tattered because of that fact.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Underperformed would be an understatement. He lost to a guy with a loosing record at the time and retired with a loosing record. Though I do have to admit the Chonan fight was freaky!


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## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Underperformed would be an understatement. He lost to a guy with a loosing record at the time and retired with a loosing record. Though I do have to admit the Chonan fight was freaky!


Yeah, I just think he had a bad fight, if Takase faced Silva now he wouldn't come close to beating him.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, Takase would definately be slaughtered by Silva now. Same with Chonan as well. However, both of those aren't happening!


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## djkrazykill (Mar 22, 2011)

Fine Wine said:


> Well that is the difference between Ray Robinson and other fighters, he wasn't just good at his time, he was light years ahead of his time and probably still ahead of this time! He was not something you could replicate. He dominated the sport in the richest and most competitive part of it's history like nobody before or after him has ever done.


I was watching a tape (vhs) of two Sugar Ray Robinson fights just today. It's funny that I stumbled across this forum. Anyway I was watching and I realized, too often, with too many people, myself included. because of our respect and admiration for athletes of the past, men we grew up watching, heard stories about from people we looked up too like our fathers,uncles and grand fathers, we get caught up in nostalgia and start to deny reality. Those fighters/athletes were the greatest of THEIR time not ours. I was watching Robinson and my son, a boxing enthusiast himself, looked at me and asked "Dad why did you guys think this guy was so good?" I answered "He was before my time I used to ask your grandfather the same thing." He was nowhere as good as Ali but Ali said this out of respect for Robinson. Being honest in sports turns some people off. Robinson dominated in in time in history when fighters fought more fights per year and longer amounts of rounds so that gave it the illusion of being a more competitive era. Reality is that the quality of fighters and their skillsets were seriously lacking compared to todays fighters. My son was watching and saying "where's this super speed this guy was supposed to have. That hog farmer he's beating up has no foot or foot movement, his punching is sloppy, wild and all over the place of course Ray Robinson is nailing him. Ray charles could land on this guy!" I was laughing and my son said "You old folks need to get over yourselves this dude wouldn't have made it past Berto." He's probably right the new guys are younger, biggere stronger, faster, more technical, more accurate, more athletic, and just more athletic. Just plain old better! This is the case with Fedor. He ruled in the good old days. The days of a thousand cans, freakshows, brawlers, and one dimensional fighters, his two dimensional style ruled. The sport evolved into a 5-6 dimensional athletic mans sport Fedor didn't evolve with it. The older Anderson Silva did. AS is already past Fedor, he's redefing the sport right in front of our eyes. the younger Fedor is getting lost in it, and like his fans, still clinging on to the past. By the way, author it's not revisionist history Brett Rogers was never considered good he was high ranked in the minor leagues and has accomplished nothing. Arlovski and Sylvia weren't considered as good they were considered washed up that's why they were kicked down to the minors where they continue to fail miserably.


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## Absed (Sep 21, 2010)

A lot of good points there by djkrazykill... I never really was a fan of Fedor and even during the Pride days I wasn't sure that he was really that good. He fought in an era were the level of fighters wasn't as high as it is now. Even more so during those times the top fighters were divided among many different organisations and it wasn't easy to figure out who the best guy was... But on the other hand I didn't think too highly of Anderson Silva either in Pride and look how that turned out.

But it's a fact that Fedor really hasn't fought the best in the business during his entire career. For much of his time in Pride he fought mediocre fighters. Guys like Semmy Schilt, Gary Goodridge, Heath Herring, Mark Coleman, Kevin Randelman, Naoya Ogawa, Tsuyoshi Kohsaka, Zuluzinho, Mark Hunt, Hong-man Choi can hardly be called elite fighters... Out of those Coleman&Randelman were extremely one dimensional and even that dimension of their game wasn't the best in the business. Some might say that Herring was a top fighter but I never saw him as such.

The only top level guys that he faced in PRIDE in my view were Nogueira and CroCop... And even out of those CroCop is a very one dimensional fighter. Though I still concidered him to be one of the best fighters at that time. So all in all it really was a great mystery to me why everybody kept referring to Fedor as the best there was even when he was fighting guys like Sylvia, Arlovski and Rogers. I don't think Fedor can really be compared to Silva&GSP in regard to skill or opponent level. I could even argue that guys like Randy Couture and Matt Hughes have achieved more in the sport and fought tougher competetion than Fedor has...

I think this fits the Ray Robinson analogy very well as if you look at Fedors fight now you'll have to think that "man, how was this guy ever concidered the best fighter on the planet? His fighting cans!". Of course these are all just my views on things...


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

The problem is, even during PRIDE era Fedor hasn't fought Barnett, Kharitonov or Werdum. These are well known fighters whom were considered the TOP. Take a look at NOG's list of opponents, he's fought everybody PRIDE could offer at HW. He didn't beat all of them, though. Now Anderson Silva is a few fights away from having as many fights in UFC as Fedor had in PRIDE, only two of them went to decision. It's important to add that Anderson has cleared the division, he beat all the middleweights worth mentioning, not only selected few. Another important thing, UFC is the only major MMA organization nowadays, so we don't have any doubts that the best MW are there. When Fedor ruled in PRIDE, there was UFC, and MMA world was never entirely convinced that the best were in PRIDE: Couture, Mir, Gonzaga, Sylvia or Arlovski could claim that UFC's better.

I think Fedor could've beaten all of them, though, but the truth is that he didn't and that's what matters at the end. Victories over Sylvia and Arlovski aren't as meaningful because Sylvia had lost to NOG prior to the fight (and to Couture) and both Andrei and Tim looked like sh*t in their next bouts, that made people wonder. MMAth doesn't always work but Cro Cop (Fedor's biggest "W") won GP, joined UFC and was mauled by Gonzaga and Kongo, who can possibly say that Fedor wouldn't have suffered the same fate.

So I consider Anderson more impressive and more accomplished MMA fighter.


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## Absed (Sep 21, 2010)

It's easy for me to agree with The_Senator when you look at who Anderson has fought in the UFC: Leben, Franklin (x2),Lutter, Marquardt, Henderson, Irvin, Cote, Leites, Griffin, Maia, Sonnen and Belfort. That's an impressive list if you ask me. Out of those I have to say that Franklin, Marquardt, Henderson, Griffin, Sonnen and Belfort are some of the best in their division! I would argue that all of those fighters were Top 5 in their division when they fought Anderson. On top of this Anderson has solid wins over guys like Carlos Newton, Hayato Sakurai, Jeremy Horn and Jorge Rivera. Of course one could say that Anderson has lost 4 fights to not so stellar competetion, but to them I would like to note that the last real defeat Anderson had (so excluding the Okami DQ) was in 2004. So he's gone over 6 years and 16 fights without losing...

So as I already said: it's pretty easy to agree with The_Senators views


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

As far as I'm concerned, "decade" is the wrong way to look at things. Fedor Emelianenko had a *run* as the greatest heavyweight in the world. That run was _about_ a decade (I start counting at the Nogueira fight, in 2003, which makes it about seven years).

Anderson Silva is on a run. That run started (at least in my opinion) with his win over Rich Franklin at UFC 64.

During those runs, they have dominated top tier competition when it has been put in front of them. While they have fought fighters who are, in hindsight, sub-par (like Leites, in the case of Silva, and Goodridge in the case of Emelianenko) they have successfully defended their status as champions without dispute over the course of those runs.

The problem of comparison is (a) that they fight in different weight classes, which makes it very difficult to assess based on skill and (b) that the level of competition and style of fighting was different for both of them.

I find Fedor more impressive than Anderson, in terms of status as a legend, because I think that the way that Fedor chose to fought his opponents was far more challenging and far more interesting. That is, though, an opinion. As with all value judgments, it's worth taking with a grain of salt.

The reason for that is that I really enjoy the appeal of Fedor as sort of a mythic story, as well. I know that was part of his appeal to a lot of Japanese fans, and to a lot of Americans. Anderson has never had that, and so he is at a decided disadvantage in terms of securing a legacy.

Anderson's performances in the ring were and are incredible. I'm one of those people who has been on the bandwagon since (at least) the Rich Franklin fight (though I can't remember whether I picked him to beat Dan Henderson) and part of that is due to how dominant his standup has been.

Comparing their full careers is a little rough, because Anderson's run of dominance is ongoing. Anderson may continue to be undefeated for four or five years, in which case he would have a strong case for being better than Fedor. Also, I feel more confident commenting on Fedor's legacy because we do have some degree of hindsight; many of us feel more or less comfortable saying that Fedor's run of dominance is over. In the case of Anderson, it's sort of hard to take a historical perspective.

I'd wait ten years and see if we're still talking about these two guys as being comparable. They may not be, or they still might. I think that a lot of that depends on how long Anderson keeps winning and whether or not he retires undefeated.

If Anderson defends his belt again, then destroys Georges St. Pierre (assuming St. Pierre beats Jake Shields), then destroys Sonnen or some other solid middleweights in future title defenses, fights a little more at lightheavyweight, then retires not having lost since 2006, there will be a strong argument that he is the greatest MMA fighter that we've seen up to this point.

Of course, if that happens I fully expect people to say: "Well, how does Anderson Silva compare to Jose Aldo?" or whoever the dominant fighter at the time is.


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## Absed (Sep 21, 2010)

I really have to disagree with you Iron Man. You make some good points but I really don't see how say Fedor and Anderson both fought the best of their time? Anderson has fought against the best the middleweight has to offer but Fedor didn't do that during his prime! You say that they both have dominated top-tier competetion when in front of them and that is excatly my point! Fedor was in front of top competetion only with his Nogueira and Cro Cop fights! I can remotely understand that one might concider Coleman or Randelman as top-tier but Ogawa, Kohsaka, Zuluzinho, Hunt or Hong-man Choi can't be concidered top by any means... So I really believe that anyone who views MMA objectivly can see the difference of competetion between Fedor and Silva.

Let me put it this way. Who hasn't Anderson faced? I believe Anderson has faced all the top contenders MW division has to offer... I don't believe you can say the same thing about Fedor.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

I think its hard to compare the legacy of two fighters still competing. The reason being that both of them are still active fighters. 

Fedor may turn over a new leaf and finish his next 6 opponent in a row by flying super-sub before retiring as a freakin Boss! And what if Silva gets flas KOed in his next bout, and can't recovery mentally becoming a shell ofhis former self. 

Or Fedor retires after another loss, giving him 3 legitimate losses, and 1 illegitimate loss. And Silva could go on to Matrix the hell out of another 5-10 opponents before retiring. 

The point being that its difficult to compare something thats constantly changing like the legacy of these two. 

If hypothetically Fedor retired tonight, and Silva had a leg amputated, ending both careers at once, I'd have to say Silva. While Fedor has five more wins than Silva, and 2 less losses, the true difference maker breaks down into two things IMO:

Who, and how. 

Silva's record in the UFC is much more illustrious than Fedor's (after Pride). Silva consistently finished an embarrassed opponents for years while Fedor seemed to complete less and less regularly. This is mostly due to the UFC's contract control. But the nature of that competition also comes into context. 

The HW division in the division where the UFC is weakest. And its where Fedor is. Meaning that many quality HWs are not part of the UFC, or at least weren't during the post-Pride, pre-Strikeforce time frame. In that time he defeated all of his opponents, but look at the quality of those opponents, they were UFC rejects, or never weres (except Arlovski who was on a win streak when he lost to Fedor). 

Look at Silva during the approximate same time. Performed the back elbow heard round the world and made hyped up Chris Leben looked embarassing. Became the MW champion after crushing Franklin's nose, and proceeded to demolish everything in his path. 

Now look at Strikeforce. Fedor finished Rogers in what had been a close fight. Got finished by Werdum, then stopped by Antonio Silva. 

Look at Silva during the same time. Embarrassed Leites, Maia, and Cote, as well as finished Henderson and Belfort. 

Numbers don't lie, and while Fedor was the absolute greatest during the PrideFC period, he hasn't maintained, or even come close to maintaining his level of dominance and competition. While Anderson Silva has increased his level of competition. 

My opinion: If the trends that I described continue, I say that without a doubt, Silva will be the GOAT (or GUUN if you're picky!)


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Absed said:


> I really have to disagree with you Iron Man. You make some good points but I really don't see how say Fedor and Anderson both fought the best of their time? Anderson has fought against the best the middleweight has to offer but Fedor didn't do that during his prime! You say that they both have dominated top-tier competetion when in front of them and that is excatly my point! Fedor was in front of top competetion only with his Nogueira and Cro Cop fights! I can remotely understand that one might concider Coleman or Randelman as top-tier but Ogawa, Kohsaka, Zuluzinho, Hunt or Hong-man Choi can't be concidered top by any means... So I really believe that anyone who views MMA objectivly can see the difference of competetion between Fedor and Silva.
> 
> Let me put it this way. Who hasn't Anderson faced? I believe Anderson has faced all the top contenders MW division has to offer... I don't believe you can say the same thing about Fedor.


You're asking two very different questions here.

The first is: Who did they face who was sub-par?

In Fedor's case, that was Yuji Nagata (0-1) and Choi Hong-Man (1-0). You argued for TK, that's fine. The TK fight, though, wasn't about fighting a top tier opponent, it was about avenging a loss. It was about story. As for Ogawa and Zuluzinho, they definitely weren't top ten heavyweights, but they were both undefeated at the time. Zulu was a bit of a joke, but Ogawa was a serious opponent at 7-0 with seven straight finishes.

Anyway, Anderson fought Lutter (who I always thought was underrated and got a bad rap for missing weight), Irvin, Cote, and then the handful of fights waiting for Vitor (Leites, Maia and Sonnen, if memory serves). Frankly, I agree with people who say that Anderson hasn't had the opportunity to fight anyone really seriously sub-par in the way that Nagata or TK was. That's totally fair. Of course, he didn't exactly beat the snot out of the mediocre guys that he did face. In fact, those have been some of Anderson's toughest fights.

Then there's the question of who didn't they fight. Who didn't they face, who they should have, when they were at the top of their game?

In the case of Fedor, he missed Barnett, Kharitonov and Werdum in Pride. Realistically, those are the guys that he shared a generation with that he never fought. It would've been nice to see him face Mir, Sylvia and Arlovski when they were all prime.

In the case of Anderson, Yushin Okami seems like the major one in the organization. But then there's Jacare. There's a lot of talk about Georges St. Pierre, but how about former Strikeforce middleweight champion Jake Shields? Frankly, there are a lot fewer names that Anderson has missed, too. But the book is still open on Anderson, too, so he could conceivably fight any of the guys I've just named.

But I'm not using either of those metrics. I don't think that the absence of fights is the best way to judge a fighters' legacy. For me, what's more interesting is "who did they fight and how did they perform?" That's really the reference I use, and I think that there's reasonable discussion about the level of competition faced, while facing elite level fighters, and the individual performances. That's just my view of it, though.


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## Absed (Sep 21, 2010)

IronMan said:


> But I'm not using either of those metrics. I don't think that the absence of fights is the best way to judge a fighters' legacy. For me, what's more interesting is "who did they fight and how did they perform?" That's really the reference I use, and I think that there's reasonable discussion about the level of competition faced, while facing elite level fighters, and the individual performances. That's just my view of it, though.


And excactly by those metrics I believe Anderson is much more accomplished! As I already stated I don't believe Fedor faced other Top 5 fighters than Mirko and Minotauro. And by top 5 I mean guys that were concidered to be top 5 at the time the fight took place. When you say that Ogawa&Zulu were undefeated that doesn't really mean much - I'm undefeated at MMA but that doesn't make me a worthy opponent. I know Ogawa finnished 7 guys straight but there was nobody worth mentioning on that list.

One more thing to concider that out of the guys that Fedor has beaten only Noguiera has been able to continue to compete sucsessfully at a high level. On the other hand I would argue that guys like Henderson, Marquardt, Franklin and even Forrest&Maia have been able to continue at a high level! I think that speaks volumes about the kind of guys Anderson has faced... It's hard to say that about let's say Arlovski who was on a winning streak when facing Fedor but has since suffered 3 straight losses...


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

edlavis88 said:


> To be fair to Anderson Silva his two losses in pride consisted of being caught in a triangle, and then being caught in a ******* flying scissor heel hook in a fight he was dominating and close to stopping!


Well, If you want to diminish those two then you also have to reconcider his win over Sonnen.

IMO Fedor was the best In another era, the era where every fighter was good at one discipline and decent at the others.

Silva Is the best In this era where every single fighter Is good at everything.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well if that is true then Silva should've been better in the old era. He is good in the new era cause he realized that he needed to adjust. The two fighters have about the same number of losses except that Silva had them earlier in his career and Fedor had them in the later part of his career.


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## Kreed (Feb 5, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, but how many top MMA fighters do you see have a tune-up fight? *The reason why GSP hasn't had very many finishes as of late is that he's up against top level competition constantly.* Anderson Silva has had to face top guys to and chose not to finish them!


thiago alves and dan hardy were top level competition? they are bait to be feasted on in a suddenly l&p laden division.Take your gsp tinted goggles off.He isnt finishing fights because he is now goin into fights to neutralize and grind out Ws not finish.He has said it out loud many times. He is squarely concerned with protecting his brand and the conservative approach is working wonders.When he l&ps (due to his false persona) its glossed over with many even callin him the best ever.But when rashad or a.johnson do the exact same thing they are crucified


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, but he didn't finish either of those guys. If he were on the same level as Silva he would've finished those guys. GSP maybe dominant but he has to be more careful with his competition.


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## Servatose (Apr 21, 2008)

Going back to the original article's comparison ... when I look at Fedor's record, I can't get past the fact that so many of his opponents weren't not just #1 contendors ... a handful of them were LHW's. And I'm aware of the argument that Fedor's not a big HW, but it's hard for me to put much stock in that defense when he's at least 30 lbs heavier than the LHW limit, and regularly fights in HW. 

In the UFC, excluding James Irvin, all of Silva's fights were either against #1 contendors, or former champions. And most of them have been finished in dramatic fashions. Both of those being said, I haven't even touched on many of the other topics of debate. There's really a ton of things to talk about. Old HW division versus MW division. The fact that Anderson and Fedor are actually very similar in age, a fact that seems to be left out the discussion a lot when we talk about Fedor being out evolved, or an old school fighter. There's also the point that Fedor started fighting sooner, and fighting has a way of aging someone. I think this discussion will also change a lot if Silva fights to the point where age has him losing a few fights. As some have hinted at, I think it's too early to have this conversation. Especially given MMA's young age. 

If there's anything I can say for sure it's that Silva has continually fought the top of the UFC's MW division. I think he's cleared out two generations of fighters in it. (Franklin, Leben being old school MW's and now Marquardt, Chael on roids, Vitor who although is older himself has come a long way, Forrest who before hand was considered a top 5 LHW.) Whereas we can't even really say Fedor has continually been challenged by his opponent's throughout the years. With the emergence of top level wrestlers in HW, it's hard to say Fedor would even stand next to the top anymore. Could he even deal with the size and athleticism that the top UFC heavyweights have to offer?


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## Kreed (Feb 5, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, but he didn't finish either of those guys. *If he were on the same level as Silva he would've finished those guys.* GSP maybe dominant but he has to be more careful with his competition.


Oh so u are basically saying GSP isnt on andderson's level? got it :thumb02:


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