# Karo camp admits he pulled out due to addiction to painkillers



## Guymay (Jul 6, 2009)

> Dana White dropped the bombshell earlier this afternoon via his Twitter account, twelve-time Octagon veteran Karo Parisyan has been cut from the UFC due to his having pulled out of his anticipated UFC 106 welterweight clash with Dustin Hazelett.
> 
> According to White, “Pulled out of the fight the day before weigh ins again with a laundry list of excuses!!! Let the press ask karo why! Let him explain.”
> 
> ...


Source : http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/11...-of-ufc-106-due-to-addiction-to-pain-killers/


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

It doesn't sound like a laundry list of excuses, it sounds like one legitimate one.

Hopefully he'll get the help he needs.

Weren't we just saying this last year, with him battling anxiety attacks?


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## WouldLuv2FightU (Jul 17, 2006)

Damn. This sucks. I was trying to be optimistic before but now it's useless. Addiction to pain killers is not something to laugh about or bash him for. People get addicted to them all the time, and it's unfortunate that most people get addicted on accident just by having one or two prescriptions for a real problem. 

Karo is still relatively young, and has a lot to learn. I hope he can get cleaned up, judo throw some fools in Strikeforce for a lil while, and maybe eventually get back to his full potential as a fighter. He's always been a favorite of mine and I wish him the best luck overcoming his addictions and anxiety issues as I can relate first hand to them. It's not fun.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

swpthleg said:


> It doesn't sound like a laundry list of excuses, it sounds like one legitimate one.
> 
> Hopefully he'll get the help he needs.
> 
> Weren't we just saying this last year, with him battling anxiety attacks?


well of course this is a legitimate one, but he did not say that at the start...


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## FEO_DOOR (Nov 7, 2009)

swpthleg said:


> It doesn't sound like a laundry list of excuses, it sounds like one legitimate one.
> 
> Hopefully he'll get the help he needs.
> 
> Weren't we just saying this last year, with him battling anxiety attacks?


He already alluded to his addiction when he was suspended for 3 kinds of painkillers after Kim Dong-hyun fight (his initial statement for pulling out of this fight is he didn't have the money to pay that fine to the Athletic Comission). Yes, he talked about anxiety attacks when he pulled out of a fight at the last minute the first time. Karo seems to be struggling with a lot of issues for some time now, but that with his "arrogant" attitude that some have seen on his TUF appearances rubbed people the wrong way.

UFC president Dana White posted on his twitter account, “Karo Parisyan has (expletive) over the UFC, the fans and his opponent again! He will not be fighting Saturday or ever again in the UFC!”


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## Sicilian_Esq (Sep 7, 2008)

/ career, if true. 

Painkillers aren't anything to shake a stick at. It'll take time, perseverance, and mental fortitude to beat this problem. 

Add to that the financial issues w/ the NSAC, his anxiety issues, etc., and I don't see him coming back.


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## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

Had the exact problem so I know what he is dealing with, the suspension should have been his wake up call.
It sucks, sucks bad but if you want to stop there are ways to get help and get well, if you really want to.
I wish he would have gotten help during his time off. Hope he does now.
That being siad he is one of my least favorite fighters but I wish on no man what he is in for because it is hell.


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## flexor (Sep 25, 2009)

Addiction to pain killers only requires the addictee to say no.

Karo is becoming the Steve Howe of mma.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

flexor said:


> Addiction to pain killers only requires the addictee to say no.
> 
> Karo is becoming the Steve Howe of mma.


That's a bit of an oversimplification.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

swpthleg said:


> That's a bit of an oversimplification.


Somewhat, but at some point it comes down to someone deciding to quit and getting themselves the help they need. Overcoming addiction isnt an easy road, but it starts with one simple choice. Karo clearly hasnt decided that he is ready to quit using drugs.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Sucks for Dustin to get a one day notice after going through a training camp.


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

Regardless of how his personality can come off at times, I hope he can get over this addiction and continue fighting elsewhere.


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## kano666 (Nov 2, 2007)

Lame. Super lame.

This is awful news. I was really looking forward to this fight - more than anything else on the card.

I'm going to stop being selfish now and wish Karo luck with his recovery. It's gonna take a long time and a lot of effort to overcome this thing.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

swpthleg said:


> It doesn't sound like a laundry list of excuses, it sounds like one legitimate one.
> 
> Hopefully he'll get the help he needs.
> 
> Weren't we just saying this last year, with him battling anxiety attacks?


If you have ever had much interaction with an addict you would know he probably had 99 problems and drugs weren't one before coming clean.


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## flexor (Sep 25, 2009)

swpthleg said:


> That's a bit of an oversimplification.


Not really, Ive been through it.

Quitting smoking is a far more difficult task.


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## jcc78 (Nov 16, 2009)

flexor said:


> Not really, Ive been through it.
> 
> Quitting smoking is a far more difficult task.


I'm a smoker and its not even close to as difficult as quitting painkillers like vicodine or morphine.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

flexor said:


> Not really, Ive been through it.
> 
> Quitting smoking is a far more difficult task.


You weren't a real addict then, Ive seen somebody close to me go through rehab 4 times and lose everthing and still unable to get himself completly clean.


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## MLD (Oct 15, 2006)

This is too bad, for Karo, and everyone else. I agree with some other posters, to quit anything one needs to decide that is the route they are going to take. Many just say their going to quit and behave like they might, but never really decide to.

Seems senseless for people to argue about whether or not they've known someone who has been addicted, or whether or not they themselves have really been addicted. The array of substances, level of addiction, loving support of friends and family, and mental ability of people is a spectrum as wide and varied as the East is from the West. Bottom line is it happens to all kinds of people, and all kinds of people can die from it, or walk away from it or do anything in between. Hope Karo is one who can kick it and redeem himself.


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## AdRath (Nov 16, 2006)

Toxic said:


> If you have ever had much interaction with an addict you would know he probably had 99 problems and drugs weren't one before coming clean.


I'd wager you are right on the money as to why Dana wrote what he wrote. 

I've never been a Karo fan. Actually I think he is a dick but I really hope he gets the help he needs because its a shame to see such talent go to waste. I have no doubt his attitude didn't do him any service when it comes to admitting you need help. 

Good luck Karo... you will need it.


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## flexor (Sep 25, 2009)

jcc78 said:


> I'm a smoker and its not even close to as difficult as quitting painkillers like vicodine or morphine.


Just to clarify a bit, I was seriously injured in a car wreck many years ago. The injuries I sustained took a long time to heal and required several surgeries. During this process I was provided with everything from Morphine, demarol, codiene(spelling?), vic's, perc's, oxy and others. I'm quite familliar with the effects that narcotics have on people.

I'm guessing you have some experience with these things as well by your statement. Are you still using narcotics?

Obviously you are still smoking. I still smoke, but I don't use painkillers anymore. I only had to quit those once.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

It's sad to see Karo fall so far.


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## BouncyJones (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm surprised that there aren't more restrictions on painkillers of this strength considering how brutal the detox can be (based on what you've described below).



locnott said:


> Had the exact problem so I know what he is dealing with, the suspension should have been his wake up call.
> It sucks, sucks bad but if you want to stop there are ways to get help and get well, if you really want to.
> I wish he would have gotten help during his time off. Hope he does now.
> That being siad he is one of my least favorite fighters but I wish on no man what he is for because it is hell.


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## diablo5597 (Nov 12, 2008)

flexor said:


> Just to clarify a bit, I was seriously injured in a car wreck many years ago. The injuries I sustained took a long time to heal and required several surgeries. During this process I was provided with everything from Morphine, demarol, codiene(spelling?), vic's, perc's, oxy and others. I'm quite familliar with the effects that narcotics have on people.
> 
> I'm guessing you have some experience with these things as well by your statement. Are you still using narcotics?
> 
> Obviously you are still smoking. I still smoke, but I don't use painkillers anymore. I only had to quit those once.


Not everybody reacts the same to them. Some people can't wait to stop taking them because they don't like them at all. Everything you say in this thread is stupid. Stop acting like an expert when you clearly don't know what you are talking about.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

I don't blame Dana for being pissed if Karo wasn't honestly initially, considering the fight is two days away. But I hope Karo gets the help he needs and gets his life back together.

Too bad for the fans. This had FOTN written all over it.


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## flexor (Sep 25, 2009)

diablo5597 said:


> Not everybody reacts the same to them. Some people can't wait to stop taking them because they don't like them at all. Everything you say in this thread is stupid. Stop acting like an expert when you clearly don't know what you are talking about.


Easy there turbo, you can keep the insults and hate, that does nothing for the subject matter.

I just read some more on this from several sites and dude is definitely jacked. Throwing away a potential 80k+ payday is stupid. Karo doesn't need you or anyone else cuddling him, he needs to take care of his shit. Don't make it out to be brain surgery, or astrophysics. 

You don't have to like my opinions, or agree with them.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

The truth is, he needs to harden the **** up. Thats easier said than done. Thats all there is to it though. It's always an addicts choice to keep doing it, but you become habbit forming, and your choice is made for you everyday without thinking. It takes a drastic change, or huge problem to snap you out of it.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Is that what you would say to him? You would say "Hey Karo, harden the **** up!". I'm sure he will be respond "hey, I never thought of that, what profound advise!". 

Saying it is always an addicts choice to keep doing it is true, but that doesn't mean he should do it without help. And somthing tells me telling him to "harden the **** up" (i recognize he won't see this, but it's the principal) isn't what would help him.

Maybe love from family and friends and rehab along with deciding for himself that he wants to quit?


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

Man this is really unfortunate. Both for the fighters and the fans. I think that fight would have been a good one. I really wanted to see some possibly awesome Judo.


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## King JLB (Apr 28, 2009)

locnott said:


> Had the exact problem so I know what he is dealing with, the suspension should have been his *wake up call*.
> It sucks, sucks bad but if you want to stop there are ways to get help and get well, if you really want to.
> I wish he would have gotten help during his time off. Hope he does now.
> That being siad he is one of my least favorite fighters but I wish on no man what he is for because it is hell.


This is dead on. Having worked with many addicts from prescribed to street drugs, the first step is admitting it and getting help. He should have checked in to a program (or a member from his team could have done it for him). Interventions, social programs, private specialists... there are a lot of options, but it's for sure a tough habit to kick.

I won't bash him, but he should have realized that the suspension was kind of a looming warning. I was never too interested by him, even though I saw the skills he possessed. I don't think he'll be coming back from this unless it's in smaller shows... or maybe Japan.

It's a shame, he's a very talented individual.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Ape City said:


> Is that what you would say to him? You would say "Hey Karo, harden the **** up!". I'm sure he will be respond "hey, I never thought of that, what profound advise!".


Well, I can see what you mean, but it's clear nothing has worked so far. I'm sure his family has been trying to get him on track in a more gentle way. In his line of work, there's no middle ground for taking pills though, he's done. So it's to the point of what I was saying. He needs a drastic blow like getting fired from the UFC to hopefully harden up. His family can only do so much.


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## smokelaw1 (Aug 3, 2007)

harden up? The dude is a succesfull pofessioanl fighter (not a world champ, but you'd be lying if you said he isn't a success). he punches, throws, kicks tough men for a living, and has the smae done to him. 
Addiction grabs you, addiction makes you weaker than your true self, and forces you to make mistakes. then, it capitalizes on those mistakes as you rely more heavily on the crutch of your addiciton. 
I quit using over a decade ago. I smoked for some time afterwords, because cigs weren't going to kill me as quickly. Eventually, i decided that they had to go, too, and I did. 
I have watched as hard, smart, brilliant, beautiful people got DESTROYED by addictions to pills that their doctors gave them, and by junk they shot in alleys. 

Yes, there needs to be an "aha!" moment when he gets help, and it might come after an intervention, or after getting fired by the UFC or by going to jail. BUT....those things are just the CATALYST for teh momment that it happens INSIDE him, when HE realises that he must get clean. I'm not a fan of his, but I hope with all my might that this moment comes before he loses everything. 


Posted to Karo:
"Karo, this road is tough, I know, but no one knows the demon as it present itself to you. You're the only one who knows it, and the only one who can beat it. There are people who will help, and I'm sure there are people in your life that WANT to. You can beat this. It will be the toughest fight of your life, but you've proven that you have a fighter's heart, now it's time to point it inward and fight a hell of a lot more than 5 rounds. Peace be with you."


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## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

smh...good example of why medical marijuana should be pushed to the forefront. People laugh and laugh and riducule and laugh about holistic treatments...but what do you really get from painkillers? Seriously....what do you get. I myself dont take pills and I ve gotten only 1 prescription in my life (oxycotin for wisdom teeth)...took 3 one day and felt no noticeable difference (maybe a placebo).

I like Karo....but I gotta admit he made a stupid decision to get wrapped in painkillers.


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

Wow, that sucks. 
There goes his MMA career. 
Pretty disappointing to hear this.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

flexor said:


> Addiction to pain killers only requires the addictee to say no.
> 
> YEP! Theres no excuse for not stopping except that deep down you dont really want to. Millions of people have done it. Addiction is nothing new.


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## WouldLuv2FightU (Jul 17, 2006)

jcal said:


> YEP! Theres no excuse for not stopping except that deep down you dont really want to. Millions of people have done it. Addiction is nothing new.


What an idiotic statement. I don't know if you knew this but science has discovered quite a few things in the last 20 years.

- Not everyone gains weight by eating sweets
- Not everyone needs 8 hours of sleep a night to feel rested
- Not everyone is good at math
- Not everyone is good at sports
- Not everyone gets cancer from smoking cigarettes

Basically, as it turns out, no two people are built the same. It's a proven fact that some people have chemical imbalances in their brain that prevents them from kicking addictions as easily as others. Why do you think some people are prone to alcoholism and others aren't? Why do you think there are people who smoke cigarettes only when they drink and others who smoke a pack a day? :confused05: There's a difference between a habit and a disease called addiction.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> What an idiotic statement. I don't know if you knew this but science has discovered quite a few things in the last 20 years.
> 
> - Not everyone gains weight by eating sweets
> - Not everyone needs 8 hours of sleep a night to feel rested
> ...


 I dont really want to disclose my life on here but lets just say ive lived it! for many years. alcohol and narcotics destroyed a huge part of my life and took away a chunk of my freedom too. If I could do it anybody can.


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## cabby (Sep 15, 2006)

I've been there, bad stuff. Oxy will f u up.


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## WouldLuv2FightU (Jul 17, 2006)

jcal said:


> I dont really want to disclose my life on here but lets just say ive lived it! for many years. alcohol and narcotics destroyed a huge part of my life and took away a chunk of my freedom too. If I could do it anybody can.


Well props to you honestly. But even though it might be hard to imagine people out there who might have to go through more of a struggle than you did, they ARE out there. They are saying now that for some people, something triggers in their brain dealing with nicotine (using MRI's for evidence) that makes it virtually impossible for them to quit. They have found that some people have this activity ranging from moderate severe, while others, although still addicted to nicotine, do not have this activity at all.

You may have had a hell of a time quitting, but chances are there are some people out there that naturally will have an even harder time than you. Anyway, props to you for doing it, but try to be more sensitive to those who weren't born with the same amount of will power as you were.

Karo is a tough guy, anyone who saw his early fights when he was fighting Sean Sherk at the ripe age of 17 or so, or realizes that Karo has been a Judoka for most of his life and how much pain you go through in that sport, knows how tough Karo really is. But addiction can be a disease, and sometimes no matter how tough you are, your brain just doesn't allow you to overcome these crutches without intense treatment or other medications to fix the chemical imbalance that can also carry drastic risks.


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## YOURMOMWASHERE (Sep 20, 2009)

jcal said:


> I dont really want to disclose my life on here but lets just say ive lived it! for many years. alcohol and narcotics destroyed a huge part of my life and took away a chunk of my freedom too. If I could do it anybody can.


Same here. Karo just needs to man up. Painkillers? Shit, try being addicted to the blend of drugs I was on...........


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## _CaptainRon (May 8, 2007)

This is the reason I don't take anything stronger than Advil or whiskey. I saw too many 'tough' athletes growing up succumb to painkiller addiction. There should be more awareness to the addictive properties of the painkillers, especially before they're prescribed. 

As for Karo, it's too bad, I enjoy watching him fight. I'd still pay good money to see him matchup with Matt Hughes.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

^there are a ton more alcoholics out there than painkiller addicts


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

But it's legal. :thumb02:


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

so is rat poison and robitussin


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## Braveheart (Oct 11, 2006)

I'd hate to make one of those I dont like Karo but i hope he gets better thred but I dont like Karo and i hope he gets better.


P.S.

He's a nose picker.


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## jcc78 (Nov 16, 2009)

HexRei said:


> so is rat poison and *robitussin *


Robitussin is the shit


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

_CaptainRon said:


> This is the reason I don't take anything stronger than Advil or whiskey. I saw too many 'tough' athletes growing up succumb to painkiller addiction. There should be more awareness to the addictive properties of the painkillers, especially before they're prescribed.
> 
> As for Karo, it's too bad, I enjoy watching him fight. I'd still pay good money to see him matchup with Matt Hughes.


He is pretty fun to watch. I will always remember that sick throw he had on Diego Sanchez! That was awesome!


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

YOURMOMWASHERE said:


> Same here. Karo just needs to man up. Painkillers? Shit, try being addicted to the blend of drugs I was on...........


Do tell...


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> Well props to you honestly. But even though it might be hard to imagine people out there who might have to go through more of a struggle than you did, they ARE out there. They are saying now that for some people, something triggers in their brain dealing with nicotine (using MRI's for evidence) that makes it virtually impossible for them to quit. They have found that some people have this activity ranging from moderate severe, while others, although still addicted to nicotine, do not have this activity at all.
> 
> You may have had a hell of a time quitting, but chances are there are some people out there that naturally will have an even harder time than you. Anyway, props to you for doing it, but try to be more sensitive to those who weren't born with the same amount of will power as you were.
> 
> Karo is a tough guy, anyone who saw his early fights when he was fighting Sean Sherk at the ripe age of 17 or so, or realizes that Karo has been a Judoka for most of his life and how much pain you go through in that sport, knows how tough Karo really is. But addiction can be a disease, and sometimes no matter how tough you are, your brain just doesn't allow you to overcome these crutches without intense treatment or other medications to fix the chemical imbalance that can also carry drastic risks.


First off- thank you. Getting clean in the hardest thing and greatest thing ive ever accomplished in my life so far. As for my post I didnt mean to sound insensitive to Karos problem but the facts are Karo needs to recognize he has a problem after that he needs to do something about it. And this is where I meant 'deep down he has to want to stop". He needs to check in to a detox then go from there to a rehab or theraputic community and from there he needs to attend self help groups like NA or Secular recovery or any of the others. The help is out there its just a matter of getting it and if you dont think you have a real problem (denial) you wont seek treatment until youve slid a long way down the socio-economic scale (rock bottom)which is the route that I had to take and I hope Karo doesnt have to take it that far. I like watching him fight and wish him luck.


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## GrabthemCakes (Aug 4, 2009)

I wasnt exactly addicted to drugs myself but was addicted to putting rophenols in womens drinks


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## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

box said:


> But it's legal. :thumb02:


and stupid...


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## MooJuice (Dec 12, 2008)

I FU<KING HATE THE IGNORANCE IN THIS THREAD.

most people are great, and know their stuff, but some people are so ignorant it almost hurts just to read their comments. it's disgusting.


I had a 2 year addiction to codeine, morphine, heroin, oxycodone, hydrocodone, buprenorphine, methadone and fentanyl, not to mention the diazepam, oxazepam, alprazolam and others, all of which cost me around $150 a day. (roughly $1,000 a week on narcotics only)

the first year i was happy in my addiction, and was a 'functioning addict'. After 12 months however, some terrible things happened in life and i urgently, urgently needed to quit. I was becoming a liability to my family and the ones i love most. I wanted desperately to quit. I needed to quit. I had no option but to quit. And yet... i could not quit. I attempted suicide multiple times, and nearly succeeded twice. it wasn't out of depression, but simply i knew that if i could not quit then staying around would hurt and destroy my family.

I lost my career, my partner, my health, my self esteem, and much more because of my addiction. I tried to quit every way you could think of - and i mean every. single. way. the things i did to try and quit i could write a book about.

finally, after my third full stint in rehab, i got onto maintenence. So i'm ok now. But during my many months collectively spent in rehabs that cost $600 PER DAY i learnt a lot about why quitting opiates and opiods is so amazingly difficult.

i could write a couple more thousand words on it, but i wont. let's just say that the education i recieved from rehab is what prompted my to study the medicine degree i am 2 years into now, and the complex reasons behind the difficulty of quitting is what prompted me to specialise in neuroscience.

remember guys, you would be surprised the number of blatant mistruths and misconceptions that are floating about in society about addiction. a number of them have surfaced in this thread, but i don't have the time to explain and deconstruct them via an internet forum.

what i will say though, is that anybody who claims that nicotine is harder to quit then opiates is either misinformed, lying (intentionally or unintentionally), or has somehow drawn some very wrong conclusions from his (or her) own experiences. Nicotine withdrawal does not involve constant vomiting, diarrhea, anxiety, depression, convulsions, temperature oscillation....i could go on for some time.

anyway thats it for now; i wish karo the very best in his recovery, and hope that he gets clean and sober and stays that way. and if he never fights again, it will be a shame, but one's health is always more important than one's career.

I hate karo's fight personality, but i wouldn't wish opiate addiction on my worst enemies. i could write pages upon pages on just how humiliating, shameful and horrible it can be.

best wishes to you karo, and for those people in this thread acting ignorant and callous, please reconsider your positions.

thats all for now,

Brendan


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## BouncyJones (Dec 29, 2008)

MooJuice said:


> I FU<KING HATE THE IGNORANCE IN THIS THREAD.
> 
> most people are great, and know their stuff, but some people are so ignorant it almost hurts just to read their comments. it's disgusting.
> 
> ...


Allen Carr wrote a really great book about how to quit smoking, and I think a lot of what he writes about can be related to addictions in general.

In brief, sometimes no matter how strong your willpower is on something, if you don't know the way out of the cave you can be stuck in their forever.

It's the same in education. There are students who try as hard as they can, but without the right analogy or right connection to something they can't make heads or tails of what they're reading.

If I have a car that's broken down, and I don't know how to jumpstart it, pushing it as hard as I can won't make it start any faster. Willpower is only half the game.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

jcal said:


> First off- thank you. Getting clean in the hardest thing and greatest thing ive ever accomplished in my life so far. As for my post I didnt mean to sound insensitive to Karos problem but the facts are Karo needs to recognize he has a problem after that he needs to do something about it. And this is where I meant 'deep down he has to want to stop". He needs to check in to a detox then go from there to a rehab or theraputic community and from there he needs to attend self help groups like NA or Secular recovery or any of the others. The help is out there its just a matter of getting it and if you dont think you have a real problem (denial) you wont seek treatment until youve slid a long way down the socio-economic scale (rock bottom)which is the route that I had to take and I hope Karo doesnt have to take it that far. I like watching him fight and wish him luck.


How do you know he hasn't done any of this? I realize you've probably read a few pamphlets but it's not as easy as you might think. A lot of people simply die from their addictions even with the best help.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> Damn. This sucks. I was trying to be optimistic before but now it's useless. Addiction to pain killers is not something to laugh about or bash him for. People get addicted to them all the time, and it's unfortunate that most people get addicted on accident just by having one or two prescriptions for a real problem.
> 
> Karo is still relatively young, and has a lot to learn. I hope he can get cleaned up, judo throw some fools in Strikeforce for a lil while, and maybe eventually get back to his full potential as a fighter. He's always been a favorite of mine and I wish him the best luck overcoming his addictions and anxiety issues as I can relate first hand to them. It's not fun.


Hit the nail on the head.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

Since we are on the topic, im actually in the process of trying to stop taking opiates as we speak. Right now im taking at least 80mg of oxycontin, to as much as 240mg a day.

And for those people that think you can just quit, like smoking. Its a tad different than that, trust me!


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## flexor (Sep 25, 2009)

It seems like the trend that pisses me off with this thread is the group of wannabe mensa members who call other posters stupid, and ridicule them for their real life experiences and opinions formed from that.

These same people go on to post their opinions as though they are authorities on the subject. 

Every one of you folks doing this represent the worst in meaningful discussion and fostering of informative interaction.

So i pissed some of you off by what I said about cigarettes. My statements come from real life experience, involving the addiction of both cigs and hardcore narcotics. What the hell gives you the moral high ground to ridicule this.

So we all know that addiction is a bitch...and we all know that some people handle the issue better than others...

If you don't buy what im selling thats fine, but show some maturity in your responses. Unless you're just addicted to being an ass.

Now, to all the folks that take offense to my stance, especially those that have been addicted to both narcotics as well as nicotene, let me throw this out there...

The lengths that people will go to in order to sustain their painkiller addiction is obviously far greater than what people will do for their next smoke. Very few people throw their life in the trash can for the nicotene, but for that painkiller buzz...hell yes. But my previous statement about the difficulty of quitting cigarettes vs narcotics is based on the actual act of quitting and not relapsing. It is a very hard but very short time frame when quitting the painkillers. But by my expeience and everyone i've ever known who has gone through the process, once that time period is over then the cravings and urges to pick it back up are nothing like the hardship of the initial withdrawal. You could throw a bottle of oxys at me and I'm not going to have a real hard time throwing them back at you. Once you quit cigarettes after a serious addiction to them, the initial withdrawal is tough but not life altering. The urge and craving to smoke again however is constantly present. I know people who havent smoked in 20 years and they will admit that the urge to smoke again never goes away completely. I've tried to quit at least 7 times with as much as a yea of being smoke free, but that craving to smoke never left. I'm not unique in this situation, as again, many people I know who have quit hardcore narcotics and managed to avoid relapse, and don't claim to be haunted daily by it.

Thoese of you calling posters names and ridiculing their positions based on their life stories should be ashamed. I don't mean to be a dick, but those of you with mod status should be saying this, not me.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

comparing smoking and narcotics doesn't make sense in the first place. smoking isn't hard to quit because of the terrible, painful withdrawals, it's hard to quit because of ease of access (buy legally in stores), social acceptance (lots of people do it and it isn't seen in nearly as negative a light as opiate addiction), and the simple fact that it's easier to be functioning long-term smoker than a functioning long-term painkiller addict. Some people smoke from childhood till they're 70, few people can live through a painkiller addiction that long.

Certainly there are strong cravings for some but it's still absolutely nothing like the first week or two of opiate withdrawal, and not really a fair comparison for either drug. For the record I smoked for two years and quit and luckily don't have craving, but I know people who do and I am glad I don't have to deal with it. I have more cravings for vicodin than cigarettes.


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## flexor (Sep 25, 2009)

HexRei said:


> comparing smoking and narcotics doesn't make sense in the first place. smoking isn't hard to quit because of the terrible, painful withdrawals, it's hard to quit because of ease of access (buy legally in stores), social acceptance (lots of people do it and it isn't seen in nearly as negative a light as opiate addiction), and the simple fact that it's easier to be functioning long-term smoker than a functioning long-term painkiller addict. Some people smoke from childhood till they're 70, few people can live through a painkiller addiction that long.
> 
> Certainly there are strong cravings for some but it's still absolutely nothing like the first week or two of opiate withdrawal, and not really a fair comparison for either drug. For the record I smoked for two years and quit and luckily don't have craving, but I know people who do and I am glad I don't have to deal with it. I have more cravings for vicodin than cigarettes.


I suppose it would be better if I refferenced relapse as the issue. And you're right about ease of access and public acceptance. But it's not difficult to score narcotics at all. I would assert that the nicotene itself is the bad guy, far more over social acceptance.

Anyone who has faced the narcotics addiction can clearly see in Karo's statements how for from reality he is. The deal with him trying to get the sanctioning body to let him take something stronger than tylenol cracked me up. That and the bs lie about the fine all brought back some memories, and I suppose those memories are part of my avoidence of relapse....I never broke any laws or placed myself or anyone else in danger for nicotene.:thumb02:


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

HexRei said:


> How do you know he hasn't done any of this? I realize you've probably read a few pamphlets but it's not as easy as you might think. A lot of people simply die from their addictions even with the best help.


A few pamphlets (laughing) how bout 4 rehabs, 21 months in jail going to mtgs, and still attending selfhelp groups for over 9 years now. I think that qualifies me to post on addiction. The truth is nothing will get you clean until you really want to and only then do you start to try. It might not work for most at first but if you keep trying you can do it! like Ive said millions of people have stopprd opiates. So why cant Karo? Not everyone needs to hit bottom like some of us to stop. But most do unfortunately.


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## BouncyJones (Dec 29, 2008)

flexor said:


> I've tried to quit at least 7 times with as much as a yea of being smoke free, but that craving to smoke never left. I'm not unique in this situation, as again, many people I know who have quit hardcore narcotics and managed to avoid relapse, and don't claim to be haunted daily by it.


You really should consider reading Allen Carr's The Easy Way to Stop Smoking and then see if you say the same thing you just said.

You have nothing to lose in reading that book except 3 hours. What you have to gain is never having that feeling ever again.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Kicking addiction to anything is a highly individualized process from what I've read, heard, and seen in this thread.

FWIW, there are good studies to show that kicking cigarettes is as hard or harder than kicking heroin.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

flexor said:


> I suppose it would be better if I refferenced relapse as the issue. And you're right about ease of access and public acceptance. But it's not difficult to score narcotics at all.


 Much, much harder than "scoring" cigarettes. Let's just leave it at that.



> I would assert that the nicotene itself is the bad guy, far more over social acceptance.
> 
> Anyone who has faced the narcotics addiction can clearly see in Karo's statements how for from reality he is. The deal with him trying to get the sanctioning body to let him take something stronger than tylenol cracked me up. That and the bs lie about the fine all brought back some memories, and I suppose those memories are part of my avoidence of relapse....I never broke any laws or placed myself or anyone else in danger for nicotene.:thumb02:


His press release about excuses was definitely ridiculous.

Swp, I've never seen a study claiming that that I felt satisfied with the conditions of. It's easy to look at recidivism rates but there are a lot of other factors which mentioned earlier in this thread. 
Tons of people quit smoking each year (in the millions, actually) but because it is so easy to obtain (by in stores with hassle or shame) socially accepted (at worst your health conscious friends will frown and you will have to smoke outside the bar) and easy to maintain for the long-term (a couple decades of heroin addiction is pretty much a death sentence, plenty of people smoke for fifty+ years) that it's really very difficult to quantify which is "harder" to quit.

But, just go to any rehab clinic and compare those there for heroin addiction to a friend who stopped smoking for a while... no contest. the smoker might have the jitters, the heroin addicts are probably rolling around crying in between mitigative drugs.

Hell even alcohol has much more dangerous withdrawals than nicotine. You can die in extreme cases of delerium tremens.


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## ARM*BAR (Nov 7, 2009)

I thought that might be the reason. I myself am a rcovering addict and if he wants to get back ont the right track he needs to get help first get out of the high pressure of the fight game and work on his addiction. and maybe in a coupkle of years he will be back. it took a good 2 years before i got back to training properly, you really lose perspective when you get hooked on crap.


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## ARM*BAR (Nov 7, 2009)

swpthleg said:


> Kicking addiction to anything is a highly individualized process from what I've read, heard, and seen in this thread.
> 
> FWIW, there are good studies to show that kicking cigarettes is as hard or harder than kicking heroin.


Its so true dude i smoked meth, crack, i popped XTC like candy and drank like a fish but none of that was as hard a kicking the smoking habbit. ...... that was the hardest habbit to kick by far


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## daveh98 (May 26, 2007)

flexor said:


> Addiction to pain killers only requires the addictee to say no.
> 
> Karo is becoming the Steve Howe of mma.


I am a cognitive behavioural therapist and an internationally cerfified clinical addictions counselor. Let me try to explain this to you or anyone else completely ignorant of addiction so that hopefully you don't labour under these ridiculous assumptions anymore. First, it is a myth that addiction takes "willpower" to overcome. 

What happens when you train all day and are short on food and water? What two words describe those deficits? Yup...Hunger and thirst. You know what hunger and thirst are? WITHDRAWAL symptoms. Our natural evolution has triggered signs to let our brain signal to our body that we are "hungry" and "thirsty" when needed so that we feed ourselves....to survive. When we do that, our brain releases a bit of dopamine to reward for feeding our bodies. Now if you take ENOUGH drugs/alcohol/nicotine over a long enough period of time, you will become addicted? Why? Because there is A LOT MORE dopamine released in the brain by say vicodin/oxycontin/percocets/et al, then say a big mac. So the brain, in time, believes that it NEEDS those drugs much more than food and water. Therefore, the WITHDRAWAL symptoms are much much more significant than being thirsty and hungry. Now I don't know about you, but i get damn pissy if I haven't eaten all day. So imagine what drug addiction feels like. That is why people do "almost anything" to feed that addiction. The brain signals to "feed me" and do so by any means necessary. 

It is sad that Dana White reduces this situation to a Twitter conversation and does not offer treatment to his fighters. This should be a flipping obligation of the UFC. I believe he just did this to Junie as well? Doesn't the UFC take care of their fighters at all? Addiction is not an overnight process and neither is overcoming it. Dana really should stand by his fighters because Karo seemingly became addicted trying to represent the organization and himself by doing his job.....Dana should get on his...end rant.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

ARM*BAR said:


> Its so true dude i smoked meth, crack, i popped XTC like candy and drank like a fish but none of that was as hard a kicking the smoking habbit. ...... that was the hardest habbit to kick by far


read a couple of posts up. there are a plethora of reasons that those other habits are harder to maintain than nicotine.


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## daveh98 (May 26, 2007)

jcal said:


> A few pamphlets (laughing) how bout 4 rehabs, 21 months in jail going to mtgs, and still attending selfhelp groups for over 9 years now. I think that qualifies me to post on addiction. The truth is nothing will get you clean until you really want to and only then do you start to try. It might not work for most at first but if you keep trying you can do it! like Ive said millions of people have stopprd opiates. So why cant Karo? Not everyone needs to hit bottom like some of us to stop. But most do unfortunately.


congrats on recovery. It is not an overnight process. I posted above a little rant on addiction. You correctly mention you don't "have to hit rock bottom" to get help..exactly correct and that is why Intervention's work pretty well...as well as drug courts. Which is exactly why your first statement is an old school belief that isn't true; "you have to want to get clean." At some point you need to, but not initially and that is proven with drug court in which people who are forced to quit end up getting the same message in treatment as the people who "really wanted it." the sad/scary part is that equals very few people who get the message. Glad you are one of them!


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## ARM*BAR (Nov 7, 2009)

HexRei said:


> read a couple of posts up. there are a plethora of reasons that those other habits are harder to maintain than nicotine.


Nicotine and Caffiene have been proven to be the most addictive substances by far and its no accident that they are available on every corner. What makes these chemicals dangerous is the fact that there mood and mind altering qualites are not as intense as Crack, H, X, and Meth which give the users a false sense of control over there addicition, and the only way you can evert kick an addiction is by recognizing you have a problem. With the hard stuff you hit rock bottom real quick and we are forced to make a choice between a life of misery or a chance at a healthy life so we are forced to this crossroad much quicker. But with smoking most of us know we have a problem but we usually don't recognize the problem until its too late, its the silent killer, It claimed my Moms life at 46 and she was 10 years clean from drugs and booze and it was smoking in the end that killed her.Thats how i realized that smoking was just as bad. and the withdrawls were much more intense. This all from personal experience and the 1000's of people i have met that agree, if you have ever been to an AA meeting before you would notice the one thing tthat people do a lot of, smoking. Addiction affect people from all walks of life, i have met Police officers, fire fighters, Laywers and i even met a fromer Priest that smoked crack (NO JOKE!!!) its a serious issue and i encourage everyone to read the post from the Doctor above about addiction because eveything they spoke of is what we learn in treatment.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

I want to throw in here, that there is a clinical model of "the addictive personality" that's better explained by the professional in this thread, that complicates the process of recognizing addiction and attempting to treat it.


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## ARM*BAR (Nov 7, 2009)

swpthleg said:


> I want to throw in here, that there is a clinical model of "the addictive personality" that's better explained by the professional in this thread, that complicates the process of recognizing addiction and attempting to treat it.


There is a genetic part to addiction, my mom, aunts, 2 grandpa's and distant relatives are all addicts either recovering or are still practising.Although this dose play a roll, no one forced me to take drugs i made the choice and it's no ones fault that i am an addict but my own. But your right here that some people are born addicts and some pick it up by accident, with drugs like Oxycotin, Demerols which are fairly common pain killers for chronic pain, any person who takes enough of these will experience withdrawls when they stop. these drugs add and or enduce neuro chemical like endorphins (a natural form of morphine the body creates to ease pain) to be uptaked by neuro transmitters in the brain that causes a sense of comfort, and when this chemical is gone we begin to miss it. anyways i hope Karo the best and i hope to see him back one day, i think Dana needs to ease up a bit, Karo did screw the UFC over but he has to get back his life. and i just want to say how impressed i am that many people are understanding of this situation. Its great to see people getting envolved and adding their support.


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## bbfsluva (Oct 18, 2009)

i always liked karo. i hope he cleans himself up. don't even care if he fights again, just hate to see anyone hooked on this shit. by the way, if you think he's the only one, think again. how can these guys not eventually get hooked? i mean, even when you win a fight you usually get beat up, not to mention all the injuries in training camp. also, don't hand me the bullshit that they're tested. if you can go 24 to 48 hours without using, you come up clean. as far as dana white, is there a bigger jerkoff in mma than that ******* moron? i'd love to rampage kick his ass one week before TUF ends. lol.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

swpthleg said:


> I want to throw in here, that there is a clinical model of "the addictive personality" that's better explained by the professional in this thread, that complicates the process of recognizing addiction and attempting to treat it.


Proffesional! when it comes to addiction its always the same, the first step is DETOX and then therapy, meetings and most likely antidepressants, to help you deal with the absence of feel-good chemicals in your head (dopamine). Thats all there is. The AMA made addiction a DISEASE! why? because their is billions of dollars in it thats why. They STILL are not sure if it is genetic or learned behaviour, but most experts lean towards learned behaviour and crossing the line. I myself have nobody in my family addicted to anything going back 3 generations but I was addicted. And the reason I got addicted was because I liked the feeling I got from using. It made me feel invinsible and took me "out of my head " and away from my problems. The problem was the addiction progressed and my problems grew! I was a hampster on a wheel, I used to get away from my problems but the problems were getting worse because I used. Its a viscious cycle. Oh yeah Bill Wilson the founder of AA could never stop smoking and died of emphyzema. So did his sponser Ebby.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

There's more than one kind of feel-good chemical.

Also, it is sometimes a question not of the level of that chemical, but how it's being routed, as in selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (commonly prescribed antidepressants) reroute serotonin to where it's more helpful in stabilizing mood.

I'm not questioning that it's a good idea for addicts to detox in a therapeutic setting.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

swpthleg said:


> There's more than one kind of feel-good chemical.
> 
> Also, it is sometimes a question not of the level of that chemical, but how it's being routed, as in selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (commonly prescribed antidepressants) reroute serotonin to where it's more helpful in stabilizing mood.
> 
> I'm not questioning that it's a good idea for addicts to detox in a therapeutic setting.


Like I said there is no sure fire method to treat addiction, some people quit on there own and some seek treatment but when you go to treatment its always the same detox, vitamins, education. For thousands of dollars, its a racket. When its all over they send you to NA or AA or ca or ga or oa. I mean the list goes on. prettty soon everything you overindulge in will be a disease Id like to know if the proffesionals think gambling is from a defective gene too. Or is that learned behaviour? Problem is they have never been able to identify any gene of addiction. I have a real hard time classifying addiction as a disease. Its the only disease that if you get thrown in jail you get better. The same cant be said for other diseases.


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## ARM*BAR (Nov 7, 2009)

Yea both of you are right and it's very true there is no sure fire way, But the AA method has shown the greatest results over long periods of time. One thing is certain you have to really truly want to quit. There has been much debate about using antidepressants, and in some cases people with a low dopamine count need meds, and thats a big reason why they abbused, they tried the drug once and never felt better, but yea every reason is a little diffrent it just seems very human, if we were not obssesive creatures i doubt we would have airplanes, cars, the internet ect....


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

ARM*BAR said:


> Yea both of you are right and it's very true there is no sure fire way, But the AA method has shown the greatest results over long periods of time.


Actually, AA has almost exactly the same rate of success as cold turkey. Some studies have shown that it may actually be worse than no treatment at all.


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## ARM*BAR (Nov 7, 2009)

HexRei said:


> Actually, AA has almost exactly the same rate of success as cold turkey. Some studies have shown that it may actually be worse than no treatment at all.


I would like to argue with you on this one but i can't i haven't been to an AA meeting in 2 years and its pretty much the reason you mentioned. At first when i was just new in recovery i needed AA big time i needed to be around people who shared the same problems later i found that i was getting depressed and thinking about using all the time especially at meetings so i did not want to go back to my old life so i dicded to take a break from AA and see how i felt, then i joined a gym and i started taking BJJ classes and Muay thai and it was like i found a new support group. Now there are a lot of members that need the AA support group and it works very well for them, and would say it was something about me that didnt gel will the AA sceen in the end. But at the sametime i should be supporting AA because its not just my addicition AA'rs go to meetings to help each other and the new people who walk in the door......but yea you make a valid point


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## daveh98 (May 26, 2007)

I invite people to reference my post a few pages ago that breaks down addiction in a quick snappot. However there IS a genetic component to addiction. I am hearing people say it is either A or B, when in fact they both intertwine. Studies now show this by the following: Two people both of whom have never done any drugs; One person has a family history of addiction and the other does not. The person who has a family history of addiction has LESS dopamine receptors in the brain than the person with no family history. The reason being is that when you take a drug that greatly impacts the dopamine receptors in the brain (DA) then the person with addicted family (genetic) has LESS DA receptors and therefore they "latch" on to whatever they can get. The non-addicted brain will actually have a "flooded" response of dopamine; too much that will cause the person to get sicker on average. So that is one genetic component amongst various others.

Does that mean that all people from non-addicted families are free and clear? Of course not because of the nature of addiction and the power of the socialization process on one's values, beliefs and expectations. Just because one person has a family History (Hx) of cancer, does that mean they will have cancer themselves? No...just a higher probability. 

So yes, addiction is a disease. Relapse occurs in addiction just as it occurs in cancer, diabetes, etc (reference my previous post a few pages back as to discuss the biological aspect of relapse and addiction/withdrawal). I agree that there is no "sure fire" way to treat it but treatment does work for some (just like any drug to treat any disease). The best is to be involved in CBT, medication management, AA/NA (for some), and developing oneself professionally in a structured environment. AA works just as well as any other SINGLE form of treatment which should show its positive use. It is shown to be less effective with younger people due to the propensity of adolescents to question power, boundaries and spirituality. But that is one of the only populations that is shown to not benefit from AA/NA. The big complaint about meetings is that most people hear about them in some form of residential inpatient setting: "Do 90 meetings in 90 days." That is BS because the Fellowship has NEVER been about treatment, is not considered treatment, and is only used as aftercare and to enhance one's self-concept.


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## ARM*BAR (Nov 7, 2009)

Well put Dave And i found your post very informative


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## MooJuice (Dec 12, 2008)

While much of this thread contains brilliant pieces of logic, deduction and solid information, there is quite a lot of misinformation mixed in as well.


i have been an IV heroin user, a casual social opiate taker, a social smoker, a non smoker, and a 2.5 pack-a-day smoker. Not only this, but i have been to rehab three times, (totalling many months at $550 a day) and have done unsupervised detoxes from nicotine and opiates more than a dozen times each. to top it all off, I have done two years of a professional nursing degree and have taken my umat test, which enabled me to start studying medicine at the begginning of this yeah. (so next year i will begin my second year of medicine with 2 years nursing already under my belt)

in order to mentally constrain myself from going off my dial, i will simply make a few points which hopefully may let the moronic posters in this thread see a bit more clearly.

quitting nicotine is nowhere even close to being as hard as quitting a serious opiate habit. As a previous poster mentioned, it can seem harder because cigarettes are much more proliferant, as well as being socially more acceptable. somebody who is quitting smoking has to walk past shops selling their substance of addiction every day, not to mention seeing other people smoking cigarettes.

this does not mean that


> Nicotine and Caffiene have been proven to be the most addictive substances by far


 or that


> kicking cigarettes is as hard or harder than kicking heroin.


 etc etc etc etc.

again, i will not go into the neurology of it, but opiate addiction hijacks the midbrain and makes it just like daveh98 said. it becomes a primal, natural instinct to want the substance. there is little element of conscious choice. plus obvious the issue of withdrawals is literally comical, i have been through opiate withdrawals that smokers couldn't even try to imagine in their darkest nightmares.

to re-iterate what others have said also, nicotine withdrawals versus opiate withdrawals is almost laughabe.

to sum up, imagine if the roles were reversed, and a large percentage of the population smoked heroin regularly, including on their lunchbreaks, at parties etc, and it was not illegal nor heavily frowned upon. not only this, but nearly every single shop, whether it be for groceries or alcohol etc, sold the heroin and the foil to smoke it off - for only the cost of a Subway roll.

however, then imagine that cigarettes are illegal, hardly anybody smokes them, they have one of the largest social stigmas of any substance, and the only way to find them is to sneakily get them through a friend of a friend, and even then, you are paying ridiculous prices for them.


then factor in the withdrawals, the psychological needle addiction, and everything else that i havent mentioned.


trust me, nicotine the chemical is not more addictive then dihydromorphine. (heroin) - nor any other opiate; all the way down to weak little codeine.

if anybody on this forum still thinks that nicotine is more chemically addictive, factoring out all of the other social, economical and multiple other factors, please post in this thread. I need to know if anybody exists that could really be that ignorant.



otherwise, i wish karo the very best; i just wish that he had not waited until the very last minute to actually cancel.

thats all for now, Moo.

*edit for spelling, and to confirm that daveh98 is correct in that modern medicine views chemical addiction as a disease which can be managed and treated etc, and (if you're very lucky,) cured. The similie that my rehab psychologists and more recently my uni lecturers are using is that it's not unlike diabetes.


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## WouldLuv2FightU (Jul 17, 2006)

Great posts in this thread daveh98 and MooJuice, thanks for your input :thumbsup:


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## MooJuice (Dec 12, 2008)

cheers WL2FU


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

HexRei said:


> Actually, AA has almost exactly the same rate of success as cold turkey. Some studies have shown that it may actually be worse than no treatment at all.


Yes Hex rei you are completely right. The upside is , AA is easily accessible, almost in every corner church basement. And its free. So instead of going to the bars or your "using" friends houses you can go to AA. Somewhat of a safe haven. Problem is when you join and get involved AA becomes very cult like! But there are a lot of cool people there too. When I was somewhat trying to quit using, I would go to a mtg. and go home after and I did not use that night. And 1 day turns into 30 days and then you start to believe you can actually quit. It took me about 5years in and out of the rooms to stop for good. Some people get it right away but I was double addicted, narcs and alcohol. I would have went to any support group to get sober and be with like minded people but AA was the only accessible one around.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

daveh98 said:


> I invite people to reference my post a few pages ago that breaks down addiction in a quick snappot. However there IS a genetic component to addiction. I am hearing people say it is either A or B, when in fact they both intertwine. Studies now show this by the following: Two people both of whom have never done any drugs; One person has a family history of addiction and the other does not. The person who has a family history of addiction has LESS dopamine receptors in the brain than the person with no family history. The reason being is that when you take a drug that greatly impacts the dopamine receptors in the brain (DA) then the person with addicted family (genetic) has LESS DA receptors and therefore they "latch" on to whatever they can get. The non-addicted brain will actually have a "flooded" response of dopamine; too much that will cause the person to get sicker on average. So that is one genetic component amongst various others.
> 
> Does that mean that all people from non-addicted families are free and clear? Of course not because of the nature of addiction and the power of the socialization process on one's values, beliefs and expectations. Just because one person has a family History (Hx) of cancer, does that mean they will have cancer themselves? No...just a higher probability.
> *
> So yes, addiction is a disease.* Relapse occurs in addiction just as it occurs in cancer, diabetes, etc (reference my previous post a few pages back as to discuss the biological aspect of relapse and addiction/withdrawal). I agree that there is no "sure fire" way to treat it but treatment does work for some (just like any drug to treat any disease). The best is to be involved in CBT, medication management, AA/NA (for some), and developing oneself professionally in a structured environment. AA works just as well as any other SINGLE form of treatment which should show its positive use. It is shown to be less effective with younger people due to the propensity of adolescents to question power, boundaries and spirituality. But that is one of the only populations that is shown to not benefit from AA/NA. The big complaint about meetings is that most people hear about them in some form of residential inpatient setting: "Do 90 meetings in 90 days." That is BS because the Fellowship has NEVER been about treatment, is not considered treatment, and is only used as aftercare and to enhance one's self-concept.


If its a disease how do you go about treating it? If your like most EXPERTS youll tell me I need a spiritual awakening. seeing addiction is a disease then wouldnt bieng addicted to spending money be a disease or masterbation or porn or girls or food or anything, how do you distinguish the differnce between addiction and overindulging? Not trying to start an arguement but I for 1 have never bought into that(well its not my fault) its my disease bullshit.


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## ARM*BAR (Nov 7, 2009)

MooJuice said:


> While much of this thread contains brilliant pieces of logic, deduction and solid information, there is quite a lot of misinformation mixed in as well.
> 
> 
> i have been an IV heroin user, a casual social opiate taker, a social smoker, a non smoker, and a 2.5 pack-a-day smoker. Not only this, but i have been to rehab three times, (totalling many months at $550 a day) and have done unsupervised detoxes from nicotine and opiates more than a dozen times each. to top it all off, I have done two years of a professional nursing degree and have taken my umat test, which enabled me to start studying medicine at the begginning of this yeah. (so next year i will begin my second year of medicine with 2 years nursing already under my belt)
> ...


I think your confusing the most dangerous drug to use versus the most addictive, withdrawl symptoms are not the only indicators for determining an addiction rating. Many people die from withdrawls from alcohol too any ways here are three links to reputable treatment centres/guides that have done studies.
http://www.michaelshouse.com/drug-addiction/most-addictive-drugs-world.html
http://www.drugrehabtreatment.com/most-addictive-drugs.html
http://www.blurtit.com/q3150977.html
And don't get me wrong the jury is still out on a lot of these topics and nothing is written in stone
I have done eveything under the sun including smack and never really called it my drug of choice, and i am still hooked on caffiene


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

jcal said:


> how do you distinguish the differnce between addiction and overindulging?


the level of damage it does to your life, yourself, and those around you?


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## WouldLuv2FightU (Jul 17, 2006)

jcal said:


> If its a disease how do you go about treating it? If your like most EXPERTS youll tell me I need a spiritual awakening. seeing addiction is a disease then wouldnt bieng addicted to spending money be a disease or masterbation or porn or girls or food or anything, how do you distinguish the differnce between addiction and overindulging? Not trying to start an arguement but I for 1 have never bought into that(well its not my fault) its my disease bullshit.


I believe the concept of addiction being a disease is not limited to drug users. There are people out there who are severely addicted to food as well. There are also a lot of extreme sex addicts (ever seen the movie Choke? It's a good one).


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> I believe the concept of addiction being a disease is not limited to drug users. There are people out there who are severely addicted to food as well. There are also a lot of extreme sex addicts (ever seen the movie Choke? It's a good one).


Heres my problem with th disease concept. If a man has a heart attack and is told that he will live well if he eats the right foods BUT instead he continues to eat steaks pepperoni pizza and Haagen daaz because he likes it too much to stop (even knowing the consequences is he an addict or does he just overindulge in the wrong foods? Or this; Everytime a drug addict or alcoholic is gonna use he has to make a consience decision to do it. He has to make phone calls to the dealer or go looking on the street but in all that time he knows what hes doing and can stop. The problem is is he wants to use cause he likes it. I would sure have a hard time telling someone in a hospitol Dying of lets say leukemia that the person in the bed next to them has a disease too but he would be OK if he would just stop drinking, but he chooses not to.


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## ARM*BAR (Nov 7, 2009)

WouldLuv2FightU said:


> I believe the concept of addiction being a disease is not limited to drug users. There are people out there who are severely addicted to food as well. There are also a lot of extreme sex addicts (ever seen the movie Choke? It's a good one).


Yea your right and imagine being addicted to food, we have to eat or we die so imagine trying to kick that addiction.



jcal said:


> Heres my problem with th disease concept. If a man has a heart attack and is told that he will live well if he eats the right foods BUT instead he continues to eat steaks pepperoni pizza and Haagen daaz because he likes it too much to stop (even knowing the consequences is he an addict or does he just overindulge in the wrong foods? Or this; Everytime a drug addict or alcoholic is gonna use he has to make a consience decision to do it. He has to make phone calls to the dealer or go looking on the street but in all that time he knows what hes doing and can stop. The problem is is he wants to use cause he likes it. I would sure have a hard time telling someone in a hospitol Dying of lets say leukemia that the person in the bed next to them has a disease too but he would be OK if he would just stop drinking, but he chooses not to.


 i refer Dave98 post 1 or 2 pgs ago it will break down why... I can tall your not an addict i can understand why you would not get it.... because it is insane and no sane person would hurt themselves on purpose, so something has to be wrong with them. Addiction is a mental disease, and why they call it a disease, is part of the cycle is that we keep going back even though we no the dangers DAVE98 explains it well, how this urge to use is built in our system like eating . see when average person has a few drinks they feel light headed so they slow down or stop, but for me i need more and more the feeling is different it makes me feel better like medicine and the more i use the better i feel eventually i use too much and it starts to affect my body and mind so ineed to use more to fix that problem...its crazy mean i am not a stupid guy i own a home a business but yet many people like me do this... but thats the nature of the disease and thatss why the World Health Organization recognizes it as a disease


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

It occurs to me that many painkillers are reputed to have an appetite suppressant effect. IDK if this is relevant, but Karo is in a sport where weight cutting and making weight are of significant importance.


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## WouldLuv2FightU (Jul 17, 2006)

jcal said:


> Heres my problem with th disease concept. If a man has a heart attack and is told that he will live well if he eats the right foods BUT instead he continues to eat steaks pepperoni pizza and Haagen daaz because he likes it too much to stop (even knowing the consequences is he an addict or does he just overindulge in the wrong foods?


They would be classified as an addict. I'm no expert, but I do remember seeing shows on Discovery and TLC about overeating being a disease for some people. I honestly thought it was common knowledge nowadays that some people cannot stop eating no matter how hard they try. Hence the non-losing losers on The Biggest Loser, and 600-1000 pound people scattered around the world.



jcal said:


> Or this; Everytime a drug addict or alcoholic is gonna use he has to make a consience decision to do it. He has to make phone calls to the dealer or go looking on the street but in all that time he knows what hes doing and can stop. The problem is is he wants to use cause he likes it.


Every time a hungry person is going to eat he has to go out and find food, or hunt for it back in the olden days, and cook it. Like dave98 said in his earlier post, evidence has shown that for some addicts something triggers in their brain similar to the "hunger=eat" part. 



swpthleg said:


> It occurs to me that many painkillers are reputed to have an appetite suppressant effect. IDK if this is relevant, but Karo is in a sport where weight cutting and making weight are of significant importance.


Karo is kinda pudgy, I think I remember him coming in a bit heavy on one occasion but I'm not positive. But I actually don't experience a lack of appetite when I take painkillers. I can bash food like no other when I'm on vikes or percs. But I tend not to do it often because it kind of kills the buzz.


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## ARM*BAR (Nov 7, 2009)

[QUOTE052548]It occurs to me that many painkillers are reputed to have an appetite suppressant effect. IDK if this is relevant, but Karo is in a sport where weight cutting and making weight are of significant importance.[/QUOTE]
yea this one made me think... there are painkillers that suppress ones appetite. was this one reason why?
I don't know but i am sure it would help with the weight cutting

Dana White told the press today that Parisyan has had some issues for sometime now and that the UFC has gone out of their way to get Karo help. He was not specific about Karo's problems but said that this issue is not new.
It sounds like Dana White have tried to help Karo to what extent, I know this is not a new subject among fighters.
We has a greet and meet with a fighter whom will remain Unanimous and at a club after i was told by some of my people that this fighter was snorting rails off the table in a booth.... i don't know if, or what degree this is true i did not witness this. So iam sure this is nothing new for the UFC and they probably know some great programs and treatment centers.


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## MooJuice (Dec 12, 2008)

ARM*BAR said:


> I think your confusing the most dangerous drug to use versus the most addictive, withdrawl symptoms are not the only indicators for determining an addiction rating. Many people die from withdrawls from alcohol too any ways here are three links to reputable treatment centres/guides that have done studies.
> http://www.michaelshouse.com/drug-addiction/most-addictive-drugs-world.html
> http://www.drugrehabtreatment.com/most-addictive-drugs.html
> http://www.blurtit.com/q3150977.html
> ...


no, i'm not confusing the topics at all. And the jury is not out either; the only confusion i can see is a difference in definitions of addiction. as hex rei stated, addiction is usually defined by most as how much damage it does to you and those around you even when you want to stop. On this note, have you ever seen a homeless, emaciated, smoker who prostitutes themselves so that they can afford a gigantic nicotine habit? I certainly haven't.

and secondly, addiction does in fact have a stringent set of definitions by which most researchers, professors and specialists in the area abide. I won't list them here unless absolutely necessary, but the point is that your post made false assumptions as well as statements.

Also, for the record, opiate (including heroin) withdrawals cannot kill you. I don't know why you assumed that. It's simply a fact. you may kill yourself, but they cannot kill you alone. the only withdrawals that can kill are the ones from substances that primarily stimulate GABA receptors - 2 of the most well known of these are gamma-hydroxybutyric acid and ethanol. (GHB AND booze)

*edit for flexor - 



flexor said:


> addiction to pain killers only requires the addictee to say no.





swpthleg said:


> That's a bit of an oversimplification.





flexor said:


> Not really, Ive been through it.
> 
> Quitting smoking is a far more difficult task.


At no point during these posts that i have quoted did you state that this was purely your opinion. If people explain that you are incorrect, (and you are, because addiction is definable by most medical standards) don't fall back and say it's just your personal experience. You could have clarified that at the beginning, but instead, you trolled bullshit. so dont complain.

*double edit - 



> Kicking addiction to anything is a highly individualized process from what I've read, heard, and seen in this thread.
> 
> FWIW, there are good studies to show that kicking cigarettes is as hard or harder than kicking heroin.


First point true, second point false. Well, half false. yes there are studies; no they are not 'good'; if by good you mean largely recognised.


From what i've seen in this thread, many people are arguing over oranges and apples. One one side, people who say that in their experience, they have quit other drugs but they are still smokers. fine. that doesn't mean that's smoking is harder to quit.
All it means is that there are much more reasons to stop doing opiates/opioids then there are to stop smoking. 

On the other side are the people who are paraphrasing the accepted medical point of view. 

Unless you clarify that your post is representative of your opinion only, then please don't argue against the correctness of something when you are really only representing your own personal view.


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## Ruckus (Oct 2, 2009)

MooJuice said:


> no, i'm not confusing the topics at all. And the jury is not out either; the only confusion i can see is a difference in definitions of addiction.
> 
> 
> Also, for the record, opiate (including heroin) withdrawals cannot kill you. I don't know why you assumed that. It's simply a fact. you may kill yourself, but they cannot kill you alone. the only withdrawals that can kill are the ones from substances that primarily stimulate GABA receptors - 2 of the most well known of these are gamma-hydroxybutyric acid and ethanol. (GHB AND booze)


One of the best points made on this thread. I would like to add that withdraw from benzos can kill you in addition to alcohol. Addiction is the obsession and compulsion which controls an addict and their decisions, which would include narcotics, gambling, sex, food or really any unhealthy amount of anything in one's life. Being prescribed drugs by one doctor for treatment does not make you an addict. Like it was stated in previous posts, Karo had multiple issues and the drug use was just a symptom of them. I wish him well and hope this is the wake up call he needs. Unfortunately, for many addicts hitting bottom varies and includes jails, institutions and death. If the UFC and DW have repeatedly tried to help him, those may be in store for him.


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## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

I hope Karo realizes those painkillers mess up your liver in the long run.....


your body has to constantly process and refine synthetic plant derivatives that are completely foreign

not smart :thumbsdown:


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## daveh98 (May 26, 2007)

Yup, heroin and crack won't kill you in all liklihood. Alcohol and benzo's are two that can have life-threatening withdrawals. That does not mean that you should not medically detox off of heroin. You COULD die if you are at-risk (poor health, advanced HIV disease, old age, etc). Plus it doesn't hurt to mitigate some of the nasty withdrawal affects with medical assistance. However alcohol and benzos could put one into a seizure that could kill. But this is not your recreational use. This is your alcoholic that most likely keeps 1/2 a fifth on standby just to wake up and drink to get through the night without the shakes. This is the alcoholic that has has delirium tremons upon alcohol cessation. 

Anyway, I think the big takehome point is that addiction (in it's true sense of the meaning and word) is a powerfully obsessive and compulsive disease that requires very individualized and client-centered care. Hopefully the UFC does offer good help and access to treatment as it would be a shame if they didn't. Hell...Dana if you are reading this and want to get some good treatment get ahold of me and I will gladly represent the UFC:thumb02:


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## js1316 (Jun 17, 2007)

I stuggled with drug addictions before...but for me the only addiction was to painkillers, i still love to smoke weed lol, anywho the pain sometimes from injuries can be super bad, for me I went through a windshield 2 years ago and got super addicted to vicodin..took me along time to get rid of them too had to go to rehab for a couple weeks and had 6 months of therapy..its serious they tear apart your liver if you take them uncontrollably like that..I really feel bad for him and I hope he can get back in the cage soon.


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## ARM*BAR (Nov 7, 2009)

MooJuice said:


> no, i'm not confusing the topics at all. And the jury is not out either; the only confusion i can see is a difference in definitions of addiction. as hex rei stated, addiction is usually defined by most as how much damage it does to you and those around you even when you want to stop. On this note, have you ever seen a homeless, emaciated, smoker who prostitutes themselves so that they can afford a gigantic nicotine habit? I certainly haven't.
> 
> and secondly, addiction does in fact have a stringent set of definitions by which most researchers, professors and specialists in the area abide. I won't list them here unless absolutely necessary, but the point is that your post made false assumptions as well as statements.
> 
> ...


Firstly, The jury is very much out on the this subject, the whole reason why we continue to see experts publish papers on these subjects.
Secondly, every 6.5 seconds a person is killed by smoking, and smoking related diseases and all their families are effected, people lose homes, cars, jobs, because of medical bills involved with smoking.
Lastly, Tell that to the more then half of the lung cancer patents who smoke and continue too even after finding out. Again smoking is a silent killer, because people think it has little or no effect on the day to day life, suddenly they are battling illness while their families watch helplessly. Addiction has a psychological component that needs to be addressed, we all think differently, grow up differently and so on. All of this plays a roll in our Addiction. 
And everything i have said is backed up by hard data:


Heroin facts: 
-In 2008, 453,000 Americans age 12 and older had abused heroin at least once in the year prior to being surveyed. Source: National Survey on Drug Use and Health (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration Web Site). The NIDA-funded 2008 Monitoring the Future Study showed that 0.9% of 8th graders, 0.8% of 10th graders, and 0.7% of 12th graders had abused heroin at least once in the year prior to being surveyed. Source: Monitoring the Future (University of Michigan Web Site)

-Addicts experience pain in the muscles and bones, diarrhea, chills, vomiting and insomnia. The worst of the symptoms of withdrawal occur 48 to 72 hours after taking the drug, and can linger 
-Addicts who are in poor health are actually at risk of dying if the drug is taken away. However, a withdrawal is not as life-threatening or dangerous as barbiturate or alcohol withdrawal.
- 400 estimated deaths each year from heroin 

Nicotine Facts:
In 2008, nearly 71 million Americans age 12 and older had used a tobacco product at least once in the month prior to being surveyed. Source: National Survey on Drug Use and Health (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration Web Site). The NIDA-funded 2008 Monitoring the Future Study showed that 6.8% of 8th graders, 12.3% of 10th graders, and 20.4% of 12th graders had used cigarettes and 3.5% of 8th graders, 5.0% of 10th graders, and 6.5% of 12th graders had used smokeless tobacco at least once in the month prior to being surveyed. And while rates of smoking have continued to decline to historically low levels the overall rate of smoking by Americans remains unacceptably high. Source: Monitoring the Future (University of Michigan Web Site)
-38,000 Americans died from second hand smoke
-90% of lung cancer patients are smokers
-443,000 people die a year from smoking in the US
- every 6.5 seconds a person dies from smoking worldwide

References:
http://www.drugabuse.gov/NIDAHome.html
http://www.who.int/en/


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

daveh98 said:


> I invite people to reference my post a few pages ago that breaks down addiction in a quick snappot. However there IS a genetic component to addiction. I am hearing people say it is either A or B, when in fact they both intertwine. Studies now show this by the following: Two people both of whom have never done any drugs; One person has a family history of addiction and the other does not. The person who has a family history of addiction has LESS dopamine receptors in the brain than the person with no family history. The reason being is that when you take a drug that greatly impacts the dopamine receptors in the brain (DA) then the person with addicted family (genetic) has LESS DA receptors and therefore they "latch" on to whatever they can get. The non-addicted brain will actually have a "flooded" response of dopamine; too much that will cause the person to get sicker on average. So that is one genetic component amongst various others.
> 
> Does that mean that all people from non-addicted families are free and clear? Of course not because of the nature of addiction and the power of the socialization process on one's values, beliefs and expectations. Just because one person has a family History (Hx) of cancer, does that mean they will have cancer themselves? No...just a higher probability.
> 
> So yes, addiction is a disease. Relapse occurs in addiction just as it occurs in cancer, diabetes, etc (reference my previous post a few pages back as to discuss the biological aspect of relapse and addiction/withdrawal). I agree that there is no "sure fire" way to treat it but treatment does work for some (just like any drug to treat any disease). The best is to be involved in CBT, medication management, AA/NA (for some), and developing oneself professionally in a structured environment. * AA works just as well as any other SINGLE form of treatment which should show its positive use. It is shown to be less effective with younger people due to the propensity of adolescents to question power, boundaries and spirituality. But that is one of the only populations that is shown to not benefit from AA/NA. *The big complaint about meetings is that most people hear about them in some form of residential inpatient setting: "Do 90 meetings in 90 days." That is BS because the Fellowship has NEVER been about treatment, is not considered treatment, and is only used as aftercare and to enhance one's self-concept.


Check this out: AAorangepapers.com I think it will give you deeper insight to AA and NA. Heres a taste 




The Twelve Steps do not work as a program of recovery from drug or alcohol problems. 

The A.A. failure rate ranges from 95% to 100%. Sometimes, the A.A. success rate is actually less than zero, which means that A.A. indoctrination is positively harmful to people, and prevents recovery. Some tests have shown that even receiving no treatment at all for alcoholism is much better than receiving A.A. treatment: 

One of the most enthusiastic boosters of Alcoholics Anonymous, Professor George Vaillant of Harvard University, who is also a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (AAWS), showed by his own 8 years of testing of A.A. that A.A. was worse than useless — that it didn't help the alcoholics any more than no treatment at all, and it had the highest death rate of any treatment program tested — a death rate that Professor Vaillant himself described as "appalling". While trying to prove that A.A. treatment works, Professor Vaillant actually proved that A.A. kills. After 8 years of A.A. treatment, the score with Dr. Vaillant's first 100 alcoholic patients was: 5 sober, 29 dead, and 66 still drinking.
(Nevertheless, Vaillant is still a Trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous, and he still wants to send all alcoholics to A.A. anyway, to "get an attitude change by confessing their sins to a high-status healer." That is cult religion, not a treatment program for alcoholism.) 

The A.A. dropout rate is terrible. Most people who come to A.A. looking for help in quitting drinking are appalled by the narrow-minded atmosphere of fundamentalist religion and faith-healing. The A.A. meeting room has a revolving door. The therapists, judges, and parole officers (many of whom are themselves hidden members of A.A. or N.A.) continually send new people to A.A., but those newcomers vote with their feet once they see what A.A. really is. Even A.A.'s own triennial surveys, conducted by the A.A. headquarters (the GSO), say that: 
81% of the newcomers are gone within 30 days, 
90% are gone in 3 months, and 
95% are gone at the end of a year. 
That automatically gives A.A. a failure rate of at least 95%. But the GSO does not count all of those people who only attend a few meetings before quitting — they don't qualify as "members". (That amounts to "cherry-picking".) If we included them, then the numbers would be much worse


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

12-step programs need a major overhaul, IMO. They have not kept up with the various extenuating circumstances.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

swpthleg said:


> 12-step programs need a major overhaul, IMO. They have not kept up with the various extenuating circumstances.


Yes, they are most certainly behind the times, they refuse to change the program even a little bit. Most people who stay for a long period of time beleive the AA doctrine is infallible and divinely inspired. Even though Bill Wilson himself didnt follow any of his own 12 steps. Sound like a typical cult leader? peace!


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## MooJuice (Dec 12, 2008)

ARM*BAR said:


> Firstly, The jury is very much out on the this subject, the whole reason why we continue to see experts publish papers on these subjects.
> Secondly, every 6.5 seconds a person is killed by smoking, and smoking related diseases and all their families are effected, people lose homes, cars, jobs, because of medical bills involved with smoking.
> Lastly, Tell that to the more then half of the lung cancer patents who smoke and continue too even after finding out. Again smoking is a silent killer, because people think it has little or no effect on the day to day life, suddenly they are battling illness while their families watch helplessly. Addiction has a psychological component that needs to be addressed, we all think differently, grow up differently and so on. All of this plays a roll in our Addiction.
> And everything i have said is backed up by hard data:
> ...




You need to learn how to debate without relying on strawman arguments constantly.

millions of people die in car accidents each year.

only a few dozen die from climbing to the peak of everest.

therefore, by your logic, driving your car to work is much, much more dangerous then climbing mount everest.


you need to learn, when debating using figures, to use the only method that is accepted by most intelligent people: /per participant.

try applying that to your


armbar said:


> 443,000 people die a year from smoking in the US
> - every 6.5 seconds a person dies from smoking worldwide


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## Ruckus (Oct 2, 2009)

Even though this thread is a non UFC or MMA issue I am glad that the mods let it flow because there has been an excellent exchange of information and opinions. The hope would be that Karo somehow receive all of the support needed for his own personal recovery. That being said, I am absolutely amazed by the closed mindedness of some posters on this thread. For example, the "orange papers" is an online book and to suggest that NA even be part of that discussion is doing a disservice to anyone seeking treatment or help. World Services is a business (in both NA and AA) and has no affiliation other than providing a business service to 12 step groups. Alcohol kills, and even if some one quits drinking they may have very well already done irreversible damage and will die. All step programs pretty much make the same claim, that if someone is willing to surrender to the basic principles of the program, the can benefit with long term abstinence from using and a better quality of life. They also clearly state that it is not a religious program, rather a spiritual program. Someone who makes unfounded claims that it is a cult is just simply ignorant to the exact nature of the disease of addiction. A disease is classified as progressive, chronic, terminal and fatal a criteria of which addiction meets. The difference between addiction and say, diabetes, is that addiction is the only disease that is entirely self diagnosed, which is necessary for any sort of recovery. Unfortunately, those who do not recovery usually have denied some part of the total surrender to the disease. Its real hard for someone to admit to something that has carried a negative stigma in mainstream society for decades. It also requires change. There are seven changes which suggest that if you do one or all, you increase the chances of arresting the disease; Proffesional Help, Exercise, Diet, Daily Self Reflection, Prayer and/or Meditation, 12 Step Groups, Structure or Routine. Many people fail at recovery because they simply refuse to make any changes, other than try to stop using. I work in a treatment facility and some of the success we see is dictated by the alumni who return to the facility to share their experience. Those that stay clean all say that a key to their recovery was regular meeting attendance in a 12 step program. I can go online and find any number of resources which basically say the 12 step programs don't work, usually those sites have an agenda of their own, whether it be selling a book of the "cure" or offering their services of some kind. The most effective way found to arrest the disease of addiction and have long term abstinence from active using is found in NA, AA, GA, OEA, CA, CMA, etc.; all 12 step programs. There are people who have quit using never to pick up agin and have progressed in life without the aid of a 12 step program, however those numbers are minimal when compared to the tens of thousands of people who have found long term recovery in the fellowship of a program geared to recovery.

heres a few links:

http://www.na.org/admin/include/spaw2/uploads/pdf/litfiles/us_english/IP/EN3101.pdf

http://www.na.org/admin/include/spaw2/uploads/pdf/litfiles/us_english/IP/EN3107.pdf

http://www.addictionsandrecovery.org/recovery-skills.htm

I am in know way making an attack on someone's opinion, rather I am just providing another idea and perception to something that is insanity at best.

"One is not disturbed by events. Rather he is disturbed by his perception of those evets." -Epictetus

"Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, expecting different results." -Albert Einstein


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

It's continuing because everyone's playing nicely, and there are some excellent and insightful posts.


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