# Why does nobody use open palm strikes??



## alizio

I remember Bas talking about this and i also wondered the same thing, in alot of situations open palm strikes are more versatile and have longer reach, why have i never seen fighters use this technique regularly?


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## HexRei

Because they don't do much damage and refs frown on open handed striking as it has a higher change of poking the eye. I'm not convinced they have a longer reach either, how would that work?


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## alizio

well, on insideMMA Bas was just giving a few examples of hooks around the ear open handed and other open handed strikes and said its basically the same idea as a fist, you can generate the same power but you can extend your arm further while throwing it.... as far as refs frowning upon it, it's not against the rules, so i dont see much they could do. Perhaps Bas is wrong, i was just curious.


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## Toxic

to easy to poke the guy your fighting in the eye.


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## alizio

Toxic said:


> to easy to poke the guy your fighting in the eye.


 then why is it not against the rules?? i think if you do the technique right you prob have the same chance poking somebody in the eye as BJ Penn does ;P


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## HexRei

alizio said:


> well, on insideMMA Bas was just giving a few examples of hooks around the ear open handed and other open handed strikes and said its basically the same idea as a fist, you can generate the same power but you can extend your arm further while throwing it.... as far as refs frowning upon it, it's not against the rules, so i dont see much they could do. Perhaps Bas is wrong, i was just curious.


I've heard ref say many times "keep the hands closed when you're throwing" when someone throws an open hand. It may not be listed in the rules but refs still don't like it. Eye gouging IS agains the rules and if a ref thinks you are throwing open handed to get your opponent's eyes you could end up being penalized.

Honestly I think Bas' opinion is biased because he spent 90% of his career fighting under rules where palm strikes were the ONLY hand strikes allowed.


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## alizio

if you throw an open palm strike properly, your fingers are locked up top and your striking palm 1st, not fingers 1st like when you throw a loose gripped punch, im not so sure it would result in that many eye pokes, but its concieveable, again, no rule about it that ive heard or Bas has, he says he used the strikes many times, and one of the reasons for the tatoos on his palms


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## HexRei

alizio said:


> Bas has, he says he used the strikes many times, and one of the reasons for the tatoos on his palms


of course he has. 30 of his 33 bouts were in pancrase where you couldn't throw closed fists.


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## Nikkolai

It sets up combos really well.


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## HexRei

Nikkolai said:


> It sets up combos really well.


that wasn't even a palm strike, just a straight up bitchslap.


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## Nikkolai

HexRei said:


> that wasn't even a palm strike, just a straight up bitchslap.


Lol I know but that was the first thing that popped into my head.


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## Godzuki

I'd have to go with Bas on this. The way he explained it made perfect sense to me, and if anyone is going to know the different advantages between open and closed fisted striking, it's going to be Bas Rutten.

The reason nobody uses it anymore? Like Bas said, "Because they're stupid". :thumb02:


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## HexRei

I'd go with the people actually still competing. All respect to Bas, but he barely competed in the sport as we know it (and 2 of those 3 fights were very questionable). Pancrase was different in a lot of important ways and I think if openhand strikes were so advantageous, we'd see them in use today. If were talking a gloveless fight like Pancrase you'd see more since the chance of breaking your hand is much lower, but with gloves there really isn't much reason to throw them when a closed fist strike can generate more force.


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## swpthleg

Can MMA fighters throw a ridge hand to the ribs or something like that?


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## HexRei

swpthleg said:


> Can MMA fighters throw a ridge hand to the ribs or something like that?


Better question, can they use the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart?


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## swpthleg

HexRei said:


> Better question, can they use the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart?


Only if they have practiced, Grasshopper.


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## Terror Kovenant

A proper palm strike can actually kill a man pretty easily, but the MMA gloves make this impossible. With the way the gloves are and the ease at which you can accidentally poke out an eye, palm strikes are impractical.


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## HexRei

Terror Kovenant said:


> A proper palm strike can actually kill a man pretty easily,


LOL tell me you don't mean the palm strike to the nose where you shove the bone into the brain.


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## swpthleg

OK, I think we're heading into dim mak territory now.


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## dblock

Uriah Faber did 5 rounds doing open palm strikes, see how that worked out.


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## D.P.

Nikkolai said:


> It sets up combos really well.


Slaaaaapp!!


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## swpthleg

That'll learn him to run his whore mouth while the men are talking.


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## Terror Kovenant

HexRei said:


> LOL tell me you don't mean the palm strike to the nose where you shove the bone into the brain.


Nah. I mean with the bottom part of your palm, where your wrist starts. If you strike with that properly it can have more force than a fist, and you can kill a guy with a good shot to the head or heart.


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## HexRei

Terror Kovenant said:


> Nah. I mean with the bottom part of your palm, where your wrist starts. If you strike with that properly it can have more force than a fist, and you can kill a guy with a good shot to the head or heart.


hahahahahha


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## Mirage445

I once killed someone with my penis.


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## LilHeathen

Terror Kovenant said:


> Nah. I mean with the bottom part of your palm, where your wrist starts. If you strike with that properly it can have more force than a fist, and you can kill a guy with a good shot to the head or heart.


So stupid!!!!!!


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## Anudem

Nikkolai said:


> It sets up combos really well.


What did the five fingers say to the face?


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## khoveraki

I honestly think open palm strikes can definitely still be utilized in MMA. There's basically no padding on that part using regulation gloves.

It definitely won't increase your reach, that's pretty silly.  

I practice open palm strikes from the collar tie regularly. Sometimes you're pinned against the cage and can't get too much range-of-motion for normal strikes, having less reach is an advantage. Same thing when you're striking from guard or from side mount.

Honestly the reason why nobody uses them? It's sort of embarassing to practice. haha. I ALWAYS get goofy looks at my gym/s when I do.


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## vandalian

Don't know about how effective they are, but they sure are fun sometimes.


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## dvddanny

Terror Kovenant said:


> Nah. I mean with the bottom part of your palm, where your wrist starts. If you strike with that properly it can have more force than a fist, and you can kill a guy with a good shot to the head or heart.


Is this before or after you go super saiyen?


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## swpthleg

vandalian said:


> Don't know about how effective they are, but they sure are fun sometimes.


Oh man. It hurts to see the one of the best chins in MMA get pimp slapped like that.


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## rabakill

dvddanny said:


> Is this before or after you go super saiyen?


you guys are making fun of him. without gloves though, the flesh of the palm is a great strike because you don't break your hand as easily and it hurts way more than you would expect. Killing somebody by a hit to the chest? Probably not unless the guy doing the hitting has 200 pounds on you and you are up against a wall.


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## No_Mercy

I can see it working for some ground and pound when the person has his guard. Wam to the side of the temple or if you're trying to sink in RNC. That would be some annoying shit if I was getting hit by those...certainly make your opponents' head ring. Nothing is more annoying than Penn's heel kicks to the ribs though. 

BTW: Luiz Cane's slap is an actual move I do in sparring. I do that when my opponents' guard is up to slap it away, distract, or stun em and then combo the mofo. In his case it actually landed...lolz!


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## Nefilim777

alizio said:


> I remember Bas talking about this and i also wondered the same thing, in alot of situations open palm strikes are more versatile and have longer reach, why have i never seen fighters use this technique regularly?


In the WEC they often use them, in fact, ex champ Miguel Torres uses them on the ground quite often, mainly just to upset his opponents balance though by hitting them over the ears with an open palm, throws you way off.


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## name goes here

You could always tango your opponent






Lol so many Eng kids went deaf this way 

Also those of you saying you can't palm a nose into a brain and stuff  Stop bursting my 1990's action movie bubble.


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## Mckeever

dvddanny said:


> Is this before or after you go super saiyen?


I don't see why people are mocking him and taking it as a joke. Without gloves on, a well executed palm strike or a punch n the right spot could end a man.


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## Uchaaa

A palm is bigger than a fist, so its easier to block.


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## T.Bone

swpthleg said:


> OK, I think we're heading into dim mak territory now.


Chong Li: "Very good... But brick not hit back..."



vandalian said:


> Don't know about how effective they are, but they sure are fun sometimes.


The funny thing is, it actually looks like Arlovski was wobbled a bit by that slap. Which doesn't surprise me.


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## Diokhan

Randy was trowing open palm strikes at Tito's butt on ther fight, didn't really finish the fight but can't deny the comedy value of those!
With that being said I wanna see someone get a mount and start dropping dozens of bitchslaps at the guy on bottom just to see the reaction.


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## Mckeever

Diokhan said:


> Randy was trowing open palm strikes at Tito's butt on ther fight, didn't really finish the fight but can't deny the comedy value of those!
> *With that being said I wanna see someone get a mount and start dropping dozens of bitchslaps at the guy on bottom just to see the reaction. *


Ha ha, that would be amazing. Throw in some back handed slaps in there too.


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## CornbreadBB

The only person I see kinda throwing "palm strikes" that would work in MMA are the Diaz brothers. The fists are still closed but it seems like they hit the front of their hands, not the knuckles. Seems like a great way to do a couple of things....brake your fingers, land a shot that doesn't do much damage, or set up a punch.

Besides, why use open hand punches when you can use a HADUKEN or wind-tunnel!?


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## Nefilim777

CornbreadBB said:


> Besides, why use open hand punches when you can use a HADUKEN or wind-tunnel!?


NICE !!!


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## Drogo

Mckeever said:


> I don't see why people are mocking him and taking it as a joke. Without gloves on, a well executed palm strike or a punch n the right spot could end a man.


People occassionally get killed by punches but it is so rare and a palm strike would be even rarer. I'm not saying they are useless but I don't see how it could ever be more effective than a fist at transferring energy. 

If it isn't a joke then someone show me an example. A newspaper article or something. This is the internet, there is a ton of information out there. If anyone in the world anywhere has ever been killed by a palm strike, show me. I don't believe it.


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## Toxic

Drogo said:


> People occassionally get killed by punches but it is so rare and a palm strike would be even rarer. I'm not saying they are useless but I don't see how it could ever be more effective than a fist at transferring energy.
> 
> If it isn't a joke then someone show me an example. A newspaper article or something. This is the internet, there is a ton of information out there. If anyone in the world anywhere has ever been killed by a palm strike, show me. I don't believe it.


Come on now there is to much information on the internet, Im sure using the interwebs I can probably prove Elvis, Tupac and Biggie are alive and kicking it.


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## Liddellianenko

The only reason to use palm strikes is in a streetfight or bare knuckle fight, because a bare knuckle fist thrown with good power has a very high chance of fracturing your own knunckles and tendons. The tradeoff is that a palm strike obviously hits weaker than a full punch.

There is absolutely NO reason to throw a palm strike in an MMA fight where the 4 oz gloves provide more than enough padding and protection to practically negate the chances of a fracture. It is obviously MUCH weaker. And I don't see where you get this absurd notion that a palm strike has longer range... if anything, the range is probably a couple of inches shorter (a closed fist adds on a about 3 inches at the end of your wrist, a flat palm just adds about an inch). Anything lethal that you can do with a flat palm can also be done with a closed fist, except worse. Without the need to prevent a fracture, palm strikes are unnecessary.


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## Tacx0911

It will just be more annoying than effective.


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## Drogo

Toxic said:


> Come on now there is to much information on the internet, Im sure using the interwebs I can probably prove Elvis, Tupac and Biggie are alive and kicking it.


I'm confident I can tell the difference between reasonable sources and tinfoil hat sources. If palm strikes had any effectiveness we'd be able to find some evidence to corroborate that (and judge the reliability of that evidence). Without even looking I'm going to go ahead and say there isn't any....because palm strikes aren't more effective than a fist.


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## shatterproof

don't see any mention of one very real danger to one's self when throwing palm / open hand strikes... tweaking your wrist if it lands wrong. Only takes a slight move from your opponent and bam... no more hand to use.

That ish HURTS like a bitch, enough so to put your hand out of comission for the remainder of the fight.


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## HitOrGetHit

i saw a picture of lyoto doing it to shogun. not sure if he meant to do it though


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## Uchaaa

Palm strikes are best against the throat and the cervical artery, but thats forbidden.


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## Carlitoz3

HexRei said:


> that wasn't even a palm strike, just a straight up bitchslap.


I agree lol.
Open palm strikes seem more like a slap


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## Terror Kovenant

rabakill said:


> you guys are making fun of him. without gloves though, the flesh of the palm is a great strike because you don't break your hand as easily and it hurts way more than you would expect. Killing somebody by a hit to the chest? Probably not unless the guy doing the hitting has 200 pounds on you and you are up against a wall.


When you throw a punch a portion of the force is disperses through your joints (elbow, wrist, and knuckles) so the total force you throw with is not the force that is transfered into your target. A proper palm strike actually has less of its force diffused out through other places and thus gives a higher transfer energy into the opponenet. Also, due to the structure of the bottom of the place it makes it a much more effect tool of striking on solid surfaces than a fist. So if you strike someone in the skull you can do a lot more damage with a palm than a first. There have been plenty of people who have been killed by punches to the head, and given what I just laid out, the probably of potential to kill a man with a palm strike to the skull is higher. Also, the palm strike has a higher chance of breaking ribs and if you strike towards the heart you can severely injure your opponent. Lungren put Stallone in the hospital with an injury to the heart from a punch to the chest. Don't think its not possible to stop someones heart by hitting them in the chest.


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## HexRei

Terror Kovenant said:


> When you throw a punch a portion of the force is disperses through your joints (elbow, wrist, and knuckles) so the total force you throw with is not the force that is transfered into your target. A proper palm strike actually has less of its force diffused out through other places and thus gives a higher transfer energy into the opponenet. Also, due to the structure of the bottom of the place it makes it a much more effect tool of striking on solid surfaces than a fist. So if you strike someone in the skull you can do a lot more damage with a palm than a first. There have been plenty of people who have been killed by punches to the head, and given what I just laid out, the probably of potential to kill a man with a palm strike to the skull is higher. Also, the palm strike has a higher chance of breaking ribs and if you strike towards the heart you can severely injure your opponent. Lungren put Stallone in the hospital with an injury to the heart from a punch to the chest. Don't think its not possible to stop someones heart by hitting them in the chest.


He went to the hospital because he was concerned about some swelling and high blood pressure. Oh, and it was a closed fist punch. Between two roided up actors... acting. Not two pro fighters.


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## alizio

Terror Kovenant said:


> When you throw a punch a portion of the force is disperses through your joints (elbow, wrist, and knuckles) so the total force you throw with is not the force that is transfered into your target. A proper palm strike actually has less of its force diffused out through other places and thus gives a higher transfer energy into the opponenet. Also, due to the structure of the bottom of the place it makes it a much more effect tool of striking on solid surfaces than a fist. So if you strike someone in the skull you can do a lot more damage with a palm than a first. There have been plenty of people who have been killed by punches to the head, and given what I just laid out, the probably of potential to kill a man with a palm strike to the skull is higher. Also, the palm strike has a higher chance of breaking ribs and if you strike towards the heart you can severely injure your opponent. Lungren put Stallone in the hospital with an injury to the heart from a punch to the chest. Don't think its not possible to stop someones heart by hitting them in the chest.


 +rep, i couldnt remember what bas said, but he has some science behind it to allude that palm strikes actually transfer more energy in power in alot of situations.

btw, how do i get neg repped for anything in this thread??? Seriously some ppl need to grow up


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## swpthleg

HexRei said:


> He went to the hospital because he was concerned about some swelling and high blood pressure. Oh, and it was a closed fist punch. Between two roided up actors... acting. Not two pro fighters.


I'm not sure but I think that prior to acting, Dolph Lundgren did have some sort of legitimate martial arts experience.


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## HexRei

swpthleg said:


> I'm not sure but I think that prior to acting, Dolph Lundgren did have some sort of legitimate martial arts experience.


Yes he did.

Definitely body strikes can be dangerous, I'm not arguing that, but I'm still not sold that palm strikes to the body are such a great technique or that they are more powerful than closed fist strikes.


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## Terror Kovenant

HexRei said:


> He went to the hospital because he was concerned about some swelling and high blood pressure. Oh, and it was a closed fist punch. Between two roided up actors... acting. Not two pro fighters.


And the high blood pressure and swelling was because Lundgren drilled him. Also, the first few minutes of their fight are all legit punches. Yeah they can yell "cut" and ask to stop but they were really hitting eachother. And not two pro fighters? That helps my argument. Pro fighters are going to hit harder and better.


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## khoveraki

HexRei said:


> Yes he did.
> 
> Definitely body strikes can be dangerous, I'm not arguing that, but I'm still not sold that palm strikes to the body are such a great technique or that they are more powerful than closed fist strikes.


Palm strike = less required range of motion, so it can be better under some close-range circumstances.


To you guys saying it's more dangerous etc: Pancrase was bare-knuckle and allowed only palm strikes to the head, no close fisted punches, because it was safer.


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## HexRei

Terror Kovenant said:


> And the high blood pressure and swelling was because Lundgren drilled him. Also, the first few minutes of their fight are all legit punches. Yeah they can yell "cut" and ask to stop but they were really hitting eachother. And not two pro fighters? That helps my argument. Pro fighters are going to hit harder and better.


And yet, we don't have people in MMA dying from body strikes. Maybe just because they don't understand how much more powerful a palm strike would be. Or maybe they're afraid they'd punch right through their opponent and tear out his lungs or something!


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## Terror Kovenant

HexRei said:


> And yet, we don't have people in MMA dying from body strikes. Maybe just because they don't understand how much more powerful a palm strike would be. Or maybe they're afraid they'd punch right through their opponent and tear out his lungs or something!


The reason theres not a lot of deaths in MMA is probably because...hmmmm lets see...the intent is not to kill your opponent? Yeah that seems accurate. Why does no one kick to throat? Or when you have a choke on why dont you twist their head? Never once did I try to imply that if you hit someone with a palm strike that it will kill them. I only spoke about the potential power of these strikes and how they are a completely legit strike. No one is going to stand there with the intent of making their opponent take a dirt nap. But if outside of competition that was your intent, you can seriously injury a man with a proper palm strike. Maybe you'd actually like to contribute to the conversation instead of trying to act like an ass to me?


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## HexRei

Terror Kovenant said:


> The reason theres not a lot of deaths in MMA is probably because...hmmmm lets see...the intent is not to kill your opponent? Yeah that seems accurate.


Wait, you're suggesting that no one dies from body strikes in the UFC because the fighters don't want to kill them? Like, they could, if they wanted to, within the rules of the fight? But they choose not to? 


> Why does no one kick to throat?


Because it's illegal


> Or when you have a choke on why dont you twist their head?


I'm not even sure what you're asking here. Are you implying that twisting the head during a choke would kill your opponent, and fighters choose not do it because they don't want to kill their opponent? I've been locked into a choke many times that was part neck crank. It's not as dangerous as you seem to think.


> Never once did I try to imply that if you hit someone with a palm strike that it will kill them.


Well you said it could stop their heart... that usually results in death


> I only spoke about the potential power of these strikes and how they are a completely legit strike.


I agree they are legit in the sense that they are legal. Albeit not very useful.


> No one is going to stand there with the intent of making their opponent take a dirt nap.


I don't think most fighters worry about killing their opponent. They are in there to finish them within the parameters of the unified rules.


> But if outside of competition that was your intent, you can seriously injury a man with a proper palm strike.


The thread is about palm strikes in competition. I assumed that was what you were discussing.


> Maybe you'd actually like to contribute to the conversation instead of trying to act like an ass to me?


Try to debate without insults in the future.


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## evilappendix

Have you guys mocking open palm strikes never heard of iron palm? Its so much easier breaking with your palm rather than your fist. I have virtually no training in it and I can still break through two boards with little effort. If one were to get mount on their opponent and start dropping them ground and pound style the fight would be over. You could smash a person's collar bone pretty easily using this technique. Plenty masters of Iron palm can break coconuts with their hands. Guess what else takes around the same amount of force to crack(1400lbs per square inch)? Ding ding ding! That's right! A human skull! Although given the shock absorption from the ring's mat I highly doubt we'd see this happen even if it were executed correctly in an mma match.


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## HexRei

evilappendix said:


> Have you guys mocking open palm strikes never heard of iron palm? Its so much easier breaking with your palm rather than your fist. I have virtually no training in it and I can still break through two boards with little effort. If one were to get mount on their opponent and start dropping them ground and pound style the fight would be over. You could smash a person's collar bone pretty easily using this technique. Plenty masters of Iron palm can break coconuts with their hands. Guess what else takes around the same amount of force to crack(1400lbs per square inch)? Ding ding ding! That's right! A human skull! Although given the shock absorption from the ring's mat I highly doubt we'd see this happen even if it were executed correctly in an mma match.


This is because the heel of the palm has more padding than knuckles, not because the heel delivers more force. Punching boards with a closed fist is likely to break your hand. The same can happen with someone's head- that's why they wear gloves in MMA.


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## BrutalKO

alizio said:


> I remember Bas talking about this and i also wondered the same thing, in alot of situations open palm strikes are more versatile and have longer reach, why have i never seen fighters use this technique regularly?


...Good point Alizio. I forgot about those as well. They can be very affective when timed. Best example I can think of off hand was the Keith Hackney/Emmanuel Yarborough from UFC 3 back in 94' That was a crazy brawl but Hackney's first open hand strike dropped a near 600 lb man. Something to think about...


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## HexRei

BrutalKO said:


> ...Good point Alizio. I forgot about those as well. They can be very affective when timed. Best example I can think of off hand was the Keith Hackney/Emmanuel Yarborough from UFC 3 back in 94' That was a crazy brawl but Hackney's first open hand strike dropped a near 600 lb man. Something to think about...


no gloves back then though


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## getbacktomat

This is because the arts that use open palm strikes are no popular in mma, i do not think its illegal in mma. But I've never seen a a pure sumo guy/japanese jujitsu/ninjitsu/kungfu or Capoeria. 

Another reason is its simply not trained in mma. "the Iron Palm palm" bricks can be broken whit this. It is defiantly effective I imagine one good one of those could possibly break a rib or two at least if done from mount or maybe even guard if done right.


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## evilappendix

HexRei said:


> This is because the heel of the palm has more padding than knuckles, not because the heel delivers more force. Punching boards with a closed fist is likely to break your hand. The same can happen with someone's head- that's why they wear gloves in MMA.


Well yes and no actually. Yes the palm is better suited for breaking due to the meat of your palm providing more protection but, as was stated earlier, one can generate more force with a palm strike because the shock is distributed over less of an area. You also don't have to worry about breaking any of your metacarpals or cutting up your knuckles so you can throw with more confidence and therefore with more force. Not to mention there is zero strain on your wrist striking like this. Now throw a punch into a heavy bag real hard and accidentally tweak your wrist when it lands and tell me that doesn't hurt like the bejeezus. 

However, considering there is plenty padding to protect one's hands in an mma match most of this is a moot point. I'd say for close range(ie ground and pound and hooks to the body) a palm strike could be just as effective if not more so due to less padding on the palm of the glove. For jabs and straight punches though, I wouldn't want to take away any of my reach and add to my opponents chances of blocking by throwing an open palm. That would be silly.:thumb02:


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## HexRei

evilappendix said:


> Well yes and no actually. Yes the palm is better suited for breaking due to the meat of your palm providing more protection but, as was stated earlier, one can generate more force with a palm strike because the shock is distributed over less of an area. You also don't have to worry about breaking any of your metacarpals or cutting up your knuckles so you can throw with more confidence and therefore with more force. Not to mention there is zero strain on your wrist striking like this. Now throw a punch into a heavy bag real hard and accidentally tweak your wrist when it lands and tell me that doesn't hurt like the bejeezus.
> 
> However, considering there is plenty padding to protect one's hands in an mma match most of this is a moot point. I'd say for close range(ie ground and pound and hooks to the body) a palm strike could be just as effective if not more so due to less padding on the palm of the glove. For jabs and straight punches though, I wouldn't want to take away any of my reach and add to my opponents chances of blocking by throwing an open palm. That would be silly.:thumb02:


exactly. the wraps and gloves in mma really make the advantages of a palm strike irrelevant imho.


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## Terror Kovenant

HexRei said:


> Wait, you're suggesting that no one dies from body strikes in the UFC because the fighters don't want to kill them? Like, they could, if they wanted to, within the rules of the fight? But they choose not to?


No, I never said that. "And yet, we don't have people in MMA dying from body strikes. Maybe just because they don't understand how much more powerful a palm strike would be. Or maybe they're afraid they'd punch right through their opponent and tear out his lungs or something! "

If you're going to kill someone with a body strike, especially a palm strike, you have to pretty much be intending to kill them. Thats what I was getting at. 



> Because it's illegal


Relates to above



> I'm not even sure what you're asking here. Are you implying that twisting the head during a choke would kill your opponent, and fighters choose not do it because they don't want to kill their opponent? I've been locked into a choke many times that was part neck crank. It's not as dangerous as you seem to think.


Relates to above. I'm talking about trying to snap someones neck M.Bison style.



> Well you said it could stop their heart... that usually results in death


Where did I say that it would kill someone 100% of time?



> I agree they are legit in the sense that they are legal. Albeit not very useful.


Completely disagree.



> I don't think most fighters worry about killing their opponent. They are in there to finish them within the parameters of the unified rules.


Irrelevant. 



> The thread is about palm strikes in competition. I assumed that was what you were discussing.


Yes we are but you're the one harping on my comment about the potential to kill someone when I clearly stated that I only made the comment to explain the strike's potential. 



> Try to debate without insults in the future.


Complete hypocrisy on your part. I'm the one trying to openly debate this and you're the one trying to mock me and last time I checked, mocking someone is considered an insult. Don't ask what you cannot follow.


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## swpthleg

That'll do, Terror.


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## HexRei

Terror Kovenant said:


> If you're going to kill someone with a body strike, especially a palm strike, you have to pretty much be intending to kill them. Thats what I was getting at.


And I think if it were feasible we would see fighters using this death move. Please clarify to me why you think we don't see this strike used.



> Complete hypocrisy on your part. I'm the one trying to openly debate this and you're the one trying to mock me and last time I checked, mocking someone is considered an insult. Don't ask what you cannot follow.


I'm amused by your belief on this particular topic, but I am not insulting personally. If you are really sprung on this tidbit I guess you might take it personally, but that's not how I mean it.


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## michelangelo

This thread rivals the Sexiyama threads for sheer creepiness.


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## Terror Kovenant

HexRei said:


> And I think if it were feasible we would see fighters using this death move. Please clarify to me why you think we don't see this strike used.


Original post:


Terror Kovenant said:


> A proper palm strike can actually kill a man pretty easily, but the MMA gloves make this impossible. With the way the gloves are and the ease at which you can accidentally poke out an eye, palm strikes are impractical.






> I'm amused by your belief on this particular topic, but I am not insulting personally. If you are really sprung on this tidbit I guess you might take it personally, but that's not how I mean it.


I'm actually not sprung on anything, I just expected to have a halfway decent discussion with a mod. 

Again for my final clarification. I've just been merely trying to point out that palm strikes can equate to much more than just a slap and they deserve their respect as a legitimate strike whether or not we're discussing MMA competition.


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## HexRei

Terror Kovenant said:


> Original post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm actually not sprung on anything, I just expected to have a halfway decent discussion with a mod.
> 
> Again for my final clarification. I've just been merely trying to point out that palm strikes can equate to much more than just a slap and they deserve their respect as a legitimate strike whether or not we're discussing MMA competition.



Thanks. So why do you think the gloves make palm strikes impossible to be a killing maneuver? When I wear MMA gloves the heel of my palm is basically exposed. I guess wrist mobility is restricted by the wraps, is that what you mean?


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## Terror Kovenant

HexRei said:


> Thanks. So why do you think the gloves make palm strikes impossible to be a killing maneuver? When I wear MMA gloves the heel of my palm is basically exposed. I guess wrist mobility is restricted by the wraps, is that what you mean?


Correct, especially with some people/organizations using duct tape to further secure the wraps. If we ignore any potential for a fatal blow, the secured wrist straps make it hard to even KO and/or rock someone with a good palm strike. Next time you're striking a bag, work on using the heel of your palm without a glove, see if you feel a force difference between it and your fist.


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## name goes here

You can't twist the head because it is against the rules. You can crank the neck which is different. No sport allows you to twist the head, because there are great fears of neck injuries.


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## diablo5597

Terror Kovenant said:


> *A proper palm strike can actually kill a man pretty easily*, but the MMA gloves make this impossible. With the way the gloves are and the ease at which you can accidentally poke out an eye, palm strikes are impractical.


lmao. Don't believe this BS. This is the kind of crap they say on TV. Let me guess, the best fighting moves are ancient and secret to only Monks and a 75 year old Monk would beat any UFC champion. Not making fun of you, just saying.


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## xeberus

Yo Arlovski, sup dawg, got a question for you..

What did the five fingers say to the face?


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## Jesy Blue

HexRei said:


> exactly. the wraps and gloves in mma really make the advantages of a palm strike irrelevant imho.





Terror Kovenant said:


> Correct, especially with some people/organizations using duct tape to further secure the wraps. If we ignore any potential for a fatal blow, the secured wrist straps make it hard to even KO and/or rock someone with a good palm strike. Next time you're striking a bag, work on using the heel of your palm without a glove, see if you feel a force difference between it and your fist.


i'm primarily a shaolin kenpo karate guy, i favor leopard style, so my most comfortable attack has always been puma paw strikes. 

when i was in japan to visit my girlfriend last year, she joined an mma gym (why she didn't seek out a judo school in Niigita City where 2 of japan's great judo masters are, i'll have no idea) and i went there once to see. 

i got my hands wrapped and gloved. the wraps supporting my wrist to not get broken hinders the bending of the wrist to do what i'm comfortable doing and the gloves adding prevented curing my fingers up tight and keeping the bottoms of my fingers straight as the fingerless parts of the gloves are partially curled, so i'm constantly pushing up against the leather and padding and the tape to put my hand in a comfortable spot. 

so i totally agree, with how everything is formulated now is towards punching. i'm sure there would be a way to make gloves and do wrappings that would be able to do open handed better, but it would probably make it less safe to do punches.

i really like open handed better, it's more of an finesse attack, but properly hitting it is harder than punching; off by a little and it completely loses it's effect. but, it's more natural for me. but it's an opinion and in no way saying one is better than the other.


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## RushFan

Awesome thread.


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## N1™

Bas Rutten used to fight for Pancrase. In Pancrase only open fist strikes were allowed


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## HexRei

name goes here said:


> You can't twist the head because it is against the rules. You can crank the neck which is different. No sport allows you to twist the head, because there are great fears of neck injuries.


maybe in local UK fights. Not by US Unified Rules.


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## name goes here

I'm surprised, it's not allowed in bjj or wrestling. Is it a small joint perhaps?


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## Drogo

Jesy Blue said:


> i really like open handed better, it's more of an finesse attack, but properly hitting it is harder than punching; off by a little and it completely loses it's effect. but, it's more natural for me. but it's an opinion and in no way saying one is better than the other.


I am, I'm saying fists are better than palm and the reason is obvious. If palm strikes were any good people would use them frequently. They don't. It isn't complicated. Even if you want to pretend people aren't using them in MMA because of the gloves/wraps then what about street fights? I've never seen any evidence anywhere suggesting that someone has used palm strikes to any effect, and in particular more effectively than a fist. If they were effective, such evidence would not be hard to find.


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## Terror Kovenant

Drogo said:


> I am, I'm saying fists are better than palm and the reason is obvious. If palm strikes were any good people would use them frequently. They don't. It isn't complicated. Even if you want to pretend people aren't using them in MMA because of the gloves/wraps then what about street fights? I've never seen any evidence anywhere suggesting that someone has used palm strikes to any effect, and in particular more effectively than a fist. If they were effective, such evidence would not be hard to find.


Street fights? I don't know about you but most street fights I've seen are two angry jocked up dudes swinging wildly at eachother. Only time I've ever seen a street fight involving a guy with even the tiniest bit of training would be this one...and hes not even good. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JWFIFgWk8k


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## Jesy Blue

Drogo said:


> I am, I'm saying fists are better than palm and the reason is obvious. If palm strikes were any good people would use them frequently.


A is better than B because i've never seen B?

ooooooookay.

as i said, they are harder to perfect; punches are easier to perfect, so most go the path of least resistance. it's easier to find a boxing coach than a kung fu/karate sifu/sensei who will only show you how to use open hand attacks without any other aspect of the style, as everything is connected. maybe in the future that will change.


and RushFan, thanks for the quote sig.... i think. doesn't seem all that quote worthy; i guess i'm missing the joke/awesomeness.


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## RushFan

http://therawmaterials.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/tiger_1.jpg

Jesy Blue's Arch Nemesis: Tigers Claw


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## Drogo

Jesy Blue said:


> A is better than B because i've never seen B?
> 
> ooooooookay..


Natural selection. Whatever works best gets used. The idea that palm strikes are somehow better, or even comparable, to a punch but don't get used is absurd. I didn't say I'd never seen palm strikes. I said I'd never seen them used in a manner that suggests they are better, or comparable, to a closed fist.

All I'm asking is to see some evidence and apparently that is asking too much of you.


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## Whitehorizon

I thought this would be more related to ground fighting. Why do fighters not use this technique on the ground more. Clapping their opponents on the ears. That screws with your equilibrium, hough if you were able to hit someone in the head it might as well be for pain as oppose to open palm strikes. I know the Gracies use to use it a lot.


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## Captain Stupid

Whitehorizon said:


> I thought this would be more related to ground fighting. Why do fighters not use this technique on the ground more. Clapping their opponents on the ears. That screws with your equilibrium, hough if you were able to hit someone in the head it might as well be for pain as oppose to open palm strikes. I know the Gracies use to use it a lot.


Pretty sure ear pops are illegal buddy.
This is absolutely one of the funniest threads i've read in a while. 2 things... While palm strikes are powerful and all, they tend to be only really useful as party tricks where scary blocks of ice, brick and wood wait to attack. It's an extremely slow attack. Watch as a practitioner has to center themselves before every strike. And add this to the difficulty of palm strike combo's. It just doesn't work i'm afraid.

The second point being is that if it was THAT EFFECTIVE, one would think that with his extensive karate background, that if it was useful or practical then we'd be seeing the god of all point strikers Machida using it. Hell i'm surprised he hasn't decapitated anyone yet with his Dim Mak style moves :sarcastic12:


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## Jesy Blue

Drogo said:


> Natural selection. Whatever works best gets used. The idea that palm strikes are somehow better, or even comparable, to a punch but don't get used is absurd. I didn't say I'd never seen palm strikes. I said I'd never seen them used in a manner that suggests they are better, or comparable, to a closed fist.
> 
> All I'm asking is to see some evidence and apparently that is asking too much of you.


i'm not sure what kind of evidence you're looking for; i'm giving my opinion as a martial arts practitioner on a web site, which as i've come to understand, holds no weight. i've become okay with that. if you don't want to take my opinion, fine. i'm not gonna go run tests, compare different gloves, wrappings, tapes, surface strikes, bust out a ballistic gel torso with pressure sensors, impact bags, etc...... i have my own hobbies. 

i... give an opinion. you want some proof, you can go find some then tell me i'm wrong.... then i can tell you you made it all up because the interweb is full of lies anyway.

and life..... will go on.


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## DanTheJu

Dude, you probably think this thread is about you!

Dont you?

Dont you?


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## Jesy Blue

DanTheJu said:


> Dude, you probably think this thread is about you!
> 
> Dont you?
> 
> Dont you?


HAHAHAAAAAH!!!!! nice.... since you're the first to ever comment on my sig, repped!


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## DanTheJu

Thanks for the rep love, but I am not gonna gavot with you now just cause of that!


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## The Dark Knight

I know it's a film, but there is a sequence in A History Of Violence that shows you the effects of just how brutal palm strikes can be. The sequence was inspired by a real life street fight that the director saw, so you know, they can be nasty. They are not too pratical in MMA competition because of the gloves and skills of the opponent etc but they can be potentially lethal if done in close quarter combat against a random assailant.


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## xeberus

The Dark Knight said:


> I know it's a film, but there is a sequence in A History Of Violence that shows you the effects of just how brutal palm strikes can be. The sequence was inspired by a real life street fight that the director saw, so you know, they can be nasty. They are not too pratical in MMA competition because of the gloves and skills of the opponent etc but they can be potentially lethal if done in close quarter combat against a random assailant.


Oh absolutely, people dont think open handed strikes can be dangerous. Well I don't even practice them but if they have their hands down I could probably drop someone with 3 or so of them. But of course with one punch landing clean I'd knock jesus out. You have to remember open palm = more force spread out over larger area of space so less damage not to mention a slower strike from air resistance and a softer connection. A punch hits faster, harder and its harder to block. 

They can be deadly but a punch is always going to be more effective.


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## Jesy Blue

wait a second, are we talking about full open bitch slaps here or are we talking about driving the heel of your palm into meaty bits?

i'm talking about the later; if people are arguing for bitch slaps you're crazy and play too many video games.


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## xeberus

Jesy Blue said:


> wait a second, are we talking about full open bitch slaps here or are we talking about driving the heel of your palm into meaty bits?
> 
> i'm talking about the later; if people are arguing for bitch slaps you're crazy and play too many video games.


So you're talking about throwing like a straight punch or an uppercut except using your palm instead of a fist? Still going to be slightly slower than a punch and my knuckles are much harder than my palm, you'll also shave off a couple inches of reach doing that.

Wait so why would you do this over just throwing a punch? I mean the punch does hit a lot harder and I have broken my hands a fair number of times so I suppose it might be safer to throw.


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## Drogo

Jesy Blue said:


> i'm not sure what kind of evidence you're looking for; i'm giving my opinion as a martial arts practitioner on a web site, which as i've come to understand, holds no weight. i've become okay with that. if you don't want to take my opinion, fine. i'm not gonna go run tests, compare different gloves, wrappings, tapes, surface strikes, bust out a ballistic gel torso with pressure sensors, impact bags, etc...... i have my own hobbies.


I'm not asking for a paper in a peer reviewed journal. Flip it over and pretend we are looking for evidence that a punch can be lethal. How hard would that be to find? Not hard at all, a few seconds on google would produce some newspaper articles I'm sure. You could probably find videos of it without much effort. If palm strikes really are effective then there should be similar evidence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (meaning that just because you can't find such evidence doesn't prove they aren't effective) but it certainly shelves it into the "extremely unlikely" category for me.


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## name goes here

Proof is important. Otherwise we'd all be fighting like Steven Segal. 

I think palm strikes are good for people without strong wrists, such as women, and then there is the opportunity to 'claw' at the eyes (like Chuck Liddel  lol). If you are a skilled gouger, open handed strikes would be superior. Plus there is less chance of damaging your hand.

Otherwise a punch gives a bit more reach, and is a harder contact. And perhaps you don't want to gouge.


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## swpthleg

name goes here said:


> Proof is important. Otherwise we'd all be fighting like Steven Segal.
> 
> I think palm strikes are good for people without strong wrists, such as women, and then there is the opportunity to 'claw' at the eyes (like Chuck Liddel  lol). If you are a skilled gouger, open handed strikes would be superior. Plus there is less chance of damaging your hand.
> 
> Otherwise a punch gives a bit more reach, and is a harder contact. And perhaps you don't want to gouge.


The middle bit is very true. There's no point throwing a punch if your wrist might jellyfish.


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## dvddanny

i dunno, as someone who used to break wooden boards and a brick or two while taking tae kwon do, the reason i used my open palm was NOT because it was more effective then my fist, it's because i didn't want to break my knuckles on a brick. There were some black belts and double strike black belts that could break bricks with their hands but after the demonstration they were always in the back icing and putting on herbal medicinal oils on their fist, they obviously felt it.

I was making fun of the guy because saying a well placed palm strike could kill a man isn't saying anything. So what? You name a part of the human body that has a hard bone near the surface of the skin and i can probably find someone who has died from being hit by it.

Technically, a punch is just more effective then a open palm especially given the padded gloves MMA fighters wear.


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## slapshot

Terror Kovenant said:


> When you throw a punch a portion of the force is disperses through your joints (elbow, wrist, and knuckles) so the total force you throw with is not the force that is transfered into your target. A proper palm strike actually has less of its force diffused out through other places and thus gives a higher transfer energy into the opponenet. Also, due to the structure of the bottom of the place it makes it a much more effect tool of striking on solid surfaces than a fist. So if you strike someone in the skull you can do a lot more damage with a palm than a first. There have been plenty of people who have been killed by punches to the head, and given what I just laid out, the probably of potential to kill a man with a palm strike to the skull is higher. Also, the palm strike has a higher chance of breaking ribs and if you strike towards the heart you can severely injure your opponent. Lungren put Stallone in the hospital with an injury to the heart from a punch to the chest. Don't think its not possible to stop someones heart by hitting them in the chest.


I agree scientifically its probably more efficient but so is a Honda prius....


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## Jesy Blue

Drogo said:


> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


 thank you Samuel L Jackson... or should i say Gin Rummy?

so you want me to be you're search engine? laaaaa-ze!
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Strike_attack_-_Punches/id/2094696
http://en.allexperts.com/e/s/st/strike_(attack).htm
http://martialartsguides.com/Striking_Codes.html
http://www.closequarterscombat.com/blog/street-fight-fist-or-palm-heel/
http://jiu-jitsusensei.blogspot.com/2009/04/open-hand-strikes-vs-punching-with.html

hear, look at stuff on the internet some more.


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## Drogo

Jesy Blue said:


> thank you Samuel L Jackson... or should i say Gin Rummy?
> 
> so you want me to be you're search engine? laaaaa-ze!
> http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Strike_attack_-_Punches/id/2094696
> http://en.allexperts.com/e/s/st/strike_(attack).htm
> http://martialartsguides.com/Striking_Codes.html
> http://www.closequarterscombat.com/blog/street-fight-fist-or-palm-heel/
> http://jiu-jitsusensei.blogspot.com/2009/04/open-hand-strikes-vs-punching-with.html
> 
> hear, look at stuff on the internet some more.


The first three links are all exactly the same definitions., namely this: "Many Chinese martial arts teach the Iron Palm, which in the hands of a trained practicioner, can send a more penetrating shock into the body."

You never write a "more" part of a sentence without finishing with the "than" part but lousy writing aside I'll assume they mean more than a fist.

The 4th is a guy explaining that it is good to use palm strikes to avoid breaking your hand. He makes no mention of it being superior to a fist in effectiveness. 

The 5th is an account from a guy who used a palm strike to hit a guy in the nose and again makes the point that it is easy to break your hand when you hit with a fist. This guy does suggest that sometimes a palm strike can be as or more effective than a fist. 

I never said palm strikes were useless and I don't dispute that they have an advantage over fists in reduced risk of injury. The issue I have is people saying they are more effective than fists but not showing me any evidence of that. Of those links only the 5th one provides any evidence of that, an experienced martial artist who is of that opinion. Weak evidence but at least it is something, so if you want to call that gin, knock yourself out. 

It isn't compelling enough to make me reconsider my position but at least 1 out of 5 isn't complete air.


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## BouncyJones

What about downward chopping motions with the side of the palm instead of punching with the fist. There are definitely some angles of attack there which are way easier hitting with the side of the hand than having to turn the hand and make it hit with the knuckles.

Karate CHOP!


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## flexor

So in relation to palm strikes, i see people saying lesser chance of injury to/breaking the hand. But what about the increased chance of severe sprain or hyperextension using open palm? 

I could see many scenarios where this would be a potential danger, but I don't train striking.


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## karl52

Hi guys,
Im a big fan of the palm heel and I cant understand why more people don’t use them in mma,I find allot of info out there on the palm heel is based on theory,but personally ive always preffered facts
Heres a couple of clips of me explaining the way i palm heel their street defence based but hopefully you can see the aplication for mma,on the second clip you can see how effective they can be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN_3IAZX8IE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CArhrUTKq8A&feature=related

if the interests here ill go into more detail of were i think the advantages would be

cheers
karl


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## Jesy Blue

Drogo said:


> I never said palm strikes were useless and I don't dispute that they have an advantage over fists in reduced risk of injury. The issue I have is people saying they are more effective than fists but not showing me any evidence of that.


oooooh that's what this is all about? i'm not saying they are more or less effective, i'm just saying the fist is easier and the current MMA glove/wrist/wrap set up hinders open hands.

this is why i'm confused with your search for proof. i'm sitting here going "proof of what? that it's difficult to throw a palm strike in a cage.... duh!"

if you want someone to argue about the effectiveness of punches vs open hand attacks you're on the wrong guy. i like my palm heels and puma paws and leopard strikes and yes, the occasional tiger claw; but there is the time and place for even the right cross, left hook, straight jab and the uppercut and every once in a great while the SHORYUKEN!

sorry to waste your time in the wrong direction.


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## karl52

HexRei said:


> that wasn't even a palm strike, just a straight up bitchslap.


hes slapping with the finger tips wiping across like you say a bitch slap,if it was a bit deeper on the side of the head he could use the palm heel hook or even a full hand slap with a lot more wieght going into the target,i also notice the extra distance you can get with the open hand compared with the boxing hook and how it sets up the cross really well.

cheers


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## RushFan

Jesy Blue said:


> http://jiu-jitsusensei.blogspot.com/2009/04/open-hand-strikes-vs-punching-with.html


This is your evidence? A pro wrestling match. :happy02:


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## Jesy Blue

i actually didn't even look at the video... i was just blindly putting links up about palm attacks. who'd of thought there would be wrestling on a jujitsu blog...

was that Jake the Snake Roberts in the front left corner?


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## Vigil

This thread is pretty interesting, I was wondering the same thing.

I study physics, and from what I know of palm strikes it seems to me 
the actual internal damage (to the brain for instance) would be greater with palm strikes. 
Reason being the transfer of energy from the incoming arm to the target 
is not dampened by a glove being impressed or joints in the fingers and wrist bending ever so slightly. 

To use an analogy: if you crash into a wall with a motorcycle, you have a much greater chance of dying
than if you had been in a car, because the car has a crumple zone that slightly lengthens the time it takes for your body to come to a halt. 
This time increase reduces the acceleration that your body undergoes which is what actually causes the damage. 

I think this is what is meant when someone says the "full force" is delivered by a palm strike. 
There is no crumple zone, the entire acceleration is carried through to the target. 
I'm not sure how much this actually matters, but the idea of an undampened, hitting-a-rock-wall like strike sure sounds appealing.

Oh and sorry for the thread necro, I just stumbled upon it with google and didn't notice it was that old.


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## karl52

the palm can be very concussive but like you say its a different effect,but the knuckle will always have more because its a smaller harder surface area,thats not to say that the palm cant be just as effective heres a clip of me hitting with the palm heel


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## No_Mercy

Damn, for a second I thought Alizio came back from the dead.


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## Hammerlock2.0

This thread has been discussed thoroughly and has run its course so I'm just gonna put the hammer on it now.


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