# Shogun: Patience Is Key To Beating Machida



## wado lado (Feb 5, 2009)

> “I get very happy with that, because when you get to the first five-rounder of your career, it means you’re fighting for the belt,” he told MMAWeekly.com backstage at UFC 100. “I take it as a great thing. I always wanted to train for five rounds.”
> “Most of the guys that fought Lyoto… found a problem with patience, with finding the right moment to attack, or to counter-strike him,” he said. “Some guys try to rush it too much; some guys try to stay too patient, (and) they start to get nervous because of that.
> 
> “I think the key is the timing of the fight, to get the feeling of when to engage and when to counter-strike him. This is likely the key, to find the pace and the rhythm, mostly the timing of the strikes to be able to connect and to make it a fight. For sure, I’m going to concentrate on that and develop a good strategy.”


http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=9174&zoneid=4

sounds like it may be quite a boring fight.


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## ThirstForBLOOD (Jul 7, 2009)

Machida can be aggressive too. IMO Shogun definitely does not have the tools to beat Machida.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

wado lado said:


> http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=9174&zoneid=4
> 
> sounds like it may be quite a boring fight.


Its also much easier to suggest ways to beat a fighter when youre not actually in the cage with them. I;m sure Randy had a great fight plan for Brock, but things dont always go the way you want them.

But good luck to him :thumb02:


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## ojibwar (Jun 24, 2007)

I'm not counting shogun out. Machida is awesome, but it wasn't to long ago everyone was saying the same about shogun. And maybe when he throws some of those kicks and knees that aren't the usuall brand, he catches him. We don't know if Machida can take a hit( because he don't get hit lol). But what i love about this sport is anything can happen. I jus hope its a good battle, I rarely enjoy a one sided fight.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Shogun is in the perfect position to surprize a lot of people. To say he CAN'T beat Machida is a little silly. Both guys have such sick technique, and I can't think of any other LHW who would have a better chance than Shogun. (except Rashad...........................  )


I know, it's Chuck, not Machida, but come on, recognize the skills of Shogun are back to at least make for an AWESOME fight. 

Shogun isn't afraid to fight fire with fire.








And he's got slicker subs than people notice, this sort of leglock can end a fight in 1 second.









Rua will be a HUGE underdog, but I'm not writing him off and I won't be betting on this fight.


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## TERMINATOR (Jul 6, 2008)

Imo I would say charging him and throwing hin off gaurd would be better than being patient and hope he doesnt knock your teeth down your throat. Shogun could keep his distance with them big leg bombs I suppose.


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## Seperator88 (Jul 12, 2009)

we all know how good shogun is or was more or less, but what has he really done to show anything in the UFC. I really hope his cardio and conditioning is top notch and he's not still trying to sell houses for his business in brasil and train only half the time, come on man youre probably gonna make more money as a ufc champion then you are in real estate.


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## xLOTUSx (Dec 1, 2008)

In my opinion Shogun needs to get his cardio up to the limit then bullrush and push the pace. Lyoto has beat people who have done that to him before but it’s better than sitting around and getting knocked out like Rashad.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

SuicideJohnson said:


> Shogun is in the perfect position to surprize a lot of people. To say he CAN'T beat Machida is a little silly. Both guys have such sick technique, and I can't think of any other LHW who would have a better chance than Shogun. (except Rashad...........................  )
> 
> 
> I know, it's Chuck, not Machida, but come on, recognize the skills of Shogun are back to at least make for an AWESOME fight.
> ...


A few things I'd like to say about this post:

1. I completely agree that Shogun has the best chance to beat Machida along with Rashad.

2. Shogun shouldn't be so much of an underdog, but he's definitely the underdog for a reason.

However, the gif of his "defense" is the problem I have. Everyone pops this gif up to show how good Shogun's defense is, which works against Shogun, not for Shogun.

Shogun is making a lot of mistakes here, including:

1. Moving back in a straight line. This is very, very bad to do, especially against a guy who has great timing(just ask Arlovski what moving back in a straight line does for you).

2. His legs go parallel twice in that gif, which means if Machida tags him hard or figures he wants to take Shogun down, he won't have any problem at all doing so.

3. His head movement is very predictable, it goes from side to side(as it always does), in a very easy to time pattern.

4. He covers his face the same exact way every single time, which leaves his chin and nose open for straight punches. Have you seen Machida's straight? It's what put down Rashad both times.

5. He is standing right infront of Chuck with his body wide open, if he fights someone like Machida who is great at kicks, he will wear Shogun down quickly.

That's 5 mistakes that you can CLEARLY see just by looking at that gif, and he got away with them because Chuck throws looping punches instead of straights, he doesn't use kicks, he doesn't look for takedowns, and he's a wild striker that doesn't have good timing anymore. Imagine how many holes someone like Machida is going to be able to see and exploit in Shogun's striking.

Anyways, I just hate how everyone pops that gif up to show Shogun's new skills, when it shows soooooooo many holes for someone like Machida to exploit. Don't get me wrong, Shogun can take a lot of guys at 205, but posting a gif showing more holes than anything else to show his defense is a pretty bad idea when you are trying to post it to prove he will do well with a guy who is a master at timing and exploiting even small mistakes, much less the huge ones Shogun has.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't know if he's right about being patient. I think maybe the only way to beat Lyoto is to have an AMAZING clinch and defensive take-downs... but even then, he's no slouch on the ground and his TDD is pretty good.

I want to say a puncher's chance is the best way, but ask Rashad how that went. Lyoto is a monster.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> Anyways, I just hate how everyone pops that gif up to show Shogun's new skills, when it shows soooooooo many holes for someone like Machida to exploit. Don't get me wrong, Shogun can take a lot of guys at 205, but posting a gif showing more holes than anything else to show his defense is a pretty bad idea when you are trying to post it to prove he will do well with a guy who is a master at timing and exploiting even small mistakes, much less the huge ones Shogun has.


I agree with the things you said, but this had nothing to do with showing his 'new' skills. Just showing that he is ballsy and still lightening quick. Had nothing to do with technique. And if Machida tries a wild flurry like the one he KO'd Rashad with, he might get caught by Shogun, that is the point of it. I simply put "fights fire with fire", not "is so elusive and shows great technical defense".
You're digging way too deep on this one my man, Shogun did what worked against Chuck, he is working on something ELSE for Machida I'm sure.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Well, Machida won't throw a wild flurry unless Shogun is hurt, in which case there's a better chance Shogun gets put down than Machida being caught when Shogun is hurt. That's another thing that kind of bugs me, people think Machida's weakness now is being caught in a flurry. The only time he doees that is if the guy is hurt, in which case it's common sense that you go in and try to finish the fight. It rarely happens that the guy rushing in to finish is the one that actually gets put down.

Also, Shogun looks fast against Chuck, who isn't nearly as fast as he used to be and is far from as fast as Machida, he also doesn't use kicks. If he did, Shogun would have been hurt with those as his body was completely open(it gives the illusion that Shogun is so quick because he avoids Chuck's attacks, but if Chuck were to have used kicks Shogun would have been hit pretty hard).

The gif only shows Shogun's holes, it's really a terrible gif as he doesn't do anything in it, he's just backing away and showing holes in his defense against a guy who isn't as fast as he used to be and only throws looping punches.


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## LCRaiders (Apr 7, 2008)

I hope they don't just run around the cage for 5 rounds


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Michael Carson said:


> However, the gif of his "defense" is the problem I have. Everyone pops this gif up to show how good Shogun's defense is, which works against Shogun, not for Shogun.


As much as I think Machida is going to destroy Rua, I feel most of your criticism of his defence comes across as arbitrary armchair expert analysis without keeping in mind how dynamic and fluid a real fight gets



Michael Carson said:


> Shogun is making a lot of mistakes here, including:
> 
> 1. Moving back in a straight line. This is very, very bad to do, especially against a guy who has great timing(just ask Arlovski what moving back in a straight line does for you).


There's no arbitrary rule that circling is always better either, ask Bisping. It makes you vulnerable to hooks / kicks to the side you're circling and can actually add to the force of the blow by you walking into it. You have to vary it depending on the situation, and Shogun mixes it up usually, just moving back this particular time. 




Michael Carson said:


> 2. His legs go parallel twice in that gif, which means if Machida tags him hard or figures he wants to take Shogun down, he won't have any problem at all doing so.


For two split seconds during a very fast paced attack, from a KO artist who NEVER takes people down, except for 2 secs to score some points. In such situations, it's more important to dodge the blows than to worry about takedowns. Besides, he snapped them right in stance within a split second. I challenge you to go an entire sparring session without ever getting your feet parallel for even a second... in the heat of a fight, small openings are always there, it doesn't take away from the fact that he dodged the relevant blows flawlessly.




Michael Carson said:


> 3. His head movement is very predictable, it goes from side to side(as it always does), in a very easy to time pattern.


What are you talking about, he changes levels, bobs and weaves, and has his head all over the place in that gif. predictable? Ok Agent smith.




Michael Carson said:


> 4. He covers his face the same exact way every single time, which leaves his chin and nose open for straight punches. Have you seen Machida's straight? It's what put down Rashad both times.


So do most people. You can never cover your entire face with MMA gloves, this isn't boxing. Whenever someone covers, it's always the same way, or a slightly lower guard near the chin. Either way, you can never cover your nose (unless you're talking old school grampa boxing with the knuckles facing forward) except if you're covering up your face completely and just kinda turtling up on the feet. You can bring the arm up etc, but the straight shots are always open, you just have to react to swat/parry them or dodge them.





Michael Carson said:


> 5. He is standing right infront of Chuck with his body wide open, if he fights someone like Machida who is great at kicks, he will wear Shogun down quickly.


When does a fighter stand beside someone unless they're clinched? They always stand right in front of each other. How exactly do you not "have your body wide open"? drop your hands? What kind of arbitrary criticism is this?

Like I said, I think Machida is just the more skilled and technical striker (with a more proven gas tank lately) and will most likely dominate, but that gif does show excellent reaction and dodging.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Liddellianenko said:


> As much as I think Machida is going to destroy Rua, I feel most of your criticism of his defence comes across as arbitrary armchair expert analysis without keeping in mind how dynamic and fluid a real fight gets
> 
> *Actually it's not, these are huge holes in his defense that are easy to see, it's pretty plain and simple. If you look at other strikers, you will notice most do not make these mistakes.*
> 
> ...


Reply is in bold.


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## Quinton Jackson (Nov 8, 2008)

He didn't really have to worry about all that stuff with Chuck Liddell. Chuck is predictable also and Shogun knew what he was going to do and how to counter it. It doesn't mean Shogun will do the same exact things against Machida. I'm sure he's studying tape and formulating a gameplan for Machida. We'll just have to see if it works or not.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

My whole original post is pointing out how that gif of Shogun and Chuck shows more holes than anything, which it does. What improvements Shogun 'might' make training for Machida isn't really what I am talking about.

People post that gif to show how good Shogun's defense is, in which case isn't very smart when you see all the mistakes and holes he has.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Michael I want to rep you so much right now but I cant. I'm sorry people but Michael obviously knows what he's talking about, regardless of if you want to say "he only did that because it was Chuck" or whatever, he did the same thing against Coleman. Lyoto throwing from odd angles with those crazy fast kicks is going to destroy Shogun, sorry.

Michael that was a schooling, you'll have rep your way as soon as I can dude.


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## Anibus (Feb 4, 2008)

Even though Shogun did show improvement in his last fight, he has his work cut out for him. If UFC shogun shows up, Machida has it. If PRIDE Shogun of old shows up, he has a good chance of winning. I like both fighters. I'm going for Shogun though


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

I think a lot of people (not a slight at anyone here) inparticular newer fans that have latched onto Machida have either forgotten or never knew new in the first place how talented Shogun is. He is an exceptional fighter and will be Machida's biggest test to date.

I am a fan of both fighters but have a stronger gravitas toward Shogun. Shogun 2.0 seems to think about strategy a lot more and knows that Shogun 1.0 steaming in chute boxe style is going to get hammered. His new adapted style will work well, he has they skills to fight in a variety of ways and by the looks of his last camp S&C are high on the agenda.

Shogun has the best shot at beating Machida IMO. Yes you could argue Rampage has the KO power. But barring catching Machida with a big shot Rampage would be made to look a bit silly by Lyoto on the feet and think he knows it.

I think Shogun will wait for Machida to engage him and look to go to ground. He will have to negate Machida's sumo and TDD. He will certainly have a better strategy than the last two victims (Evans and Silva) who really gave themselves no chance with suicidal tactics.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Actually, to be fair, Shogun of Pride had even less defense than he has now, only his gas is in queestion now. 

I think Shogun has improved some since Pride if you were to take away his questionable gas tank.

Tramai, it's nice to see someone that can also see that he does this more often than just in that gif, he does it a lot, moving back in a straight line and all.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

Shogun didn't need a defence in PRIDE. He has a great chin and just blasted people out.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Yeah, but he can't do that now, he has to have defense or he will be put away. He is a better fighter now than he was, only having a questionable gas tank.

His defense is better, that's the only improvement I can see, and even though it's very basic improvements and he still shows major holes, it's still an improvement to his defense.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> Yeah, but he can't do that now, he has to have defense or he will be put away. He is a better fighter now than he was, only having a questionable gas tank.
> 
> His defense is better, that's the only improvement I can see, and even though it's very basic improvements and he still shows major holes, it's still an improvement to his defense.


He knows that, he is a smart guy. The gas tank has not been tested yet but was addressed. It is not as if he just done a Penn, he had 2 knee operations and vastly underestimated ring rust and relying on natural fitness.

His defence is not the greatest but he carries a threat in his offence and will ask Machida questions. He will put up a better fight than everyone else has so far I am sure of that.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Sigh.......looks like I have found where i will be doing the bulk of my posting for the next few days........here we go again and we still have to October 14th........:confused05:



LCRaiders said:


> I hope they don't just run around the cage for 5 rounds


When ws the last timeyou saw that in a Machida fight?:confused02:



Michael Carson said:


> Reply is in bold.





TraMaI said:


> Michael I want to rep you so much right now but I cant. I'm sorry people but Michael obviously knows what he's talking about, regardless of if you want to say "he only did that because it was Chuck" or whatever, he did the same thing against Coleman. Lyoto throwing from odd angles with those crazy fast kicks is going to destroy Shogun, sorry.
> 
> Michael that was a schooling, you'll have rep your way as soon as I can dude.


I'll take care of that.....:thumbsup:




Combat Soul said:


> Shogun didn't need a defence in PRIDE. He has a great chin and just blasted people out.


This isnt Pride and he still hasnt shown excellent Octogon control.....


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Combat Soul said:


> He knows that, he is a smart guy. The gas tank has not been tested yet but was addressed. It is not as if he just done a Penn, he had 2 knee operations and vastly underestimated ring rust and relying on natural fitness.
> 
> His defence is not the greatest but he carries a threat in his offence and will ask Machida questions. He will put up a better fight than everyone else has so far I am sure of that.


Until he shows he can go more than 2 rounds without sucking air, you cannot say how his cardio will be. Of course he is going to work on it, same as B.J works on his, what matters is what he looks like come fight day, and right now that's all up in the air. Please don't bring up the 400000 excuses as to why he looked like crap against Coleman and didn't do well against Forrest, it's a tired thing that has been used to excuse his losses over and over and over again.

As far as his defense not being the best, thanks for actually stepping up and looking past his name and realziing his defense is actually not very good, props for that. 

Now, about his offense, he leaves himself open completely when he strikes, even more so than when he defends. He's a wild striker, he always has been. Don't get me wrong, normally this works well, he's a really good striker, being unorthodox and throwing some punches and kicks at odd angles. However, we are talking about Machida here, a guy that counters WHILE you attack, not after. So when Shogun goes for one of his wild strikes with his hands down and face presented, Machida will attack and put him down.

Many people forget that Machida counters best WHEN someone is attacking him, not after or before, and Shogun is wide open when he attacks, more so than most.





coldcall420 said:


> Sigh.......looks like I have found where i will be doing the bulk of my posting for the next few days........here we go again and we still have to October 14th........:confused05:


You had the last thread, it is my turn. :thumb02:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Just let me know if you need reinforcements...lol

I'll be keeping my eye on anyway to make sure everything stays copestetic....:thumb02:


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

Right is there a point to everything you just typed? Are you saying that Shogun is going to be blasted away by Machida?

What I have said is I think Shogun will give Machida a good fight.

We are talking about the fight and it's various variables you two don't need to be so dismissive and all sweeping about it. After all it is a fight you have nothing to do with yourself and no influence on the outcome. Do well to remember yours is just an opinion too and carries as much weight as anyone elses. A bit more e-humillity and a tad less e-arrogance would be spiffing chaps.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> Just let me know if you need reinforcements...lol
> 
> I'll be keeping my eye on anyway to make sure everything stays copestetic....:thumb02:


Will do, lol.

Also, you look sexy in teh purple. raise01:



Combat Soul said:


> Right is there a point to everything you just typed? Are you saying that Shogun is going to be blasted away by Machida?
> 
> What I have said is I think Shogun will give Machida a good fight.
> 
> We are talking about the fight and it's various variables you two don't need to be so dismissive and all sweeping about it. After all it is a fight you have nothing to do with yourself and no influence on the outcome. Do well to remember yours is just an opinion too and carries as much weight as anyone elses.


We are also discussing the fight and the variables of it, and the variables lead to Machida having better defensive and offensive striking. As far as CC(I think you are talking about him when you talk about his opinion), it's been him and me for a long time here on this forum against everyone that has been against Machida, it's a constant thing for us. We post about why so and so fighter won't beat him and which mistakes so and so fighter makes for Machida to exploit, and then when it happens, we just smile and move on to the next one.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> Will do, lol.
> 
> Also, you look sexy in teh purple. raise01:
> 
> ...


Thats is very sweet. While your point regarding Machida's striking holds some validity to dismiss Shogun from the contest entirely would be foolish. You can be sure Lyoto won't look past him the way his fans are.

The likelihood is Machida will lose at some point, and I can't see why Shogun is not regarded as the most dangerous opponent he has faced so far.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

No, of course you don't look passed him, Shogun has the best chance at beating Machida other than Rashad. I'm not saying that he won't ever lose or that Shogun has no chance at all. I've stated multiple times that Shogun is Machida's biggest test outside of Rashad and that he does have really good striking, but it's sloppy and there are too many holes in his game for Machida to exploit.

At the end of the day, Shogun is a threat, but a very mild one.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> No, of course you don't look passed him, Shogun has the best chance at beating Machida other than Rashad. I'm not saying that he won't ever lose or that Shogun has no chance at all. I've stated multiple times that Shogun is Machida's biggest test outside of Rashad and that he does have really good striking, but it's sloppy and there are too many holes in his game for Machida to exploit.
> 
> At the end of the day, Shogun is a threat, but a very mild one.


Right ok I will leave it there. But these two things have a waft of fanboy about them;

Rashad more of a threat
A 'mild' threat

...wat.



I think you are a little high on Machida juice. I like him too but he isn't God, and one day someone is going to beat him. The UFC will have to set up councilling help lines.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Rashad has better movement than Shogun and his timing is pretty good, he's also got a solid wrestling base to try and get Machida down as well has having a solid chin and good cardio. He's also really fast. He is a tougher challenge for Machida than Shogun, I'm not the only one that says this.

The reason why I said he's a mild threat is because Rashad has the better style to defeat someone like Machida, and you saw that happened there. He's a threat, but his style sure isn't. So, mixing the fact that Shogun is a game fighter and is really good with the fact that his style is terrible for Machida, I'd say he's a "mild threat".

What is the problem?


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

Combat Soul said:


> Right ok I will leave it there. But these two things have a waft of fanboy about them;
> 
> Rashad more of a threat
> A 'mild' threat
> ...


LOL. It doesnt even annoy me any more when people call rampage,shogun,rashad etc. "mild" threats. I just think its funny. Machida hasn't done enough in the UFC for me to think so godly of him. I'll be rooting for Shogun then Rampage (If shogun loses..which all the machida guys already know)but as of right now I do think Machida would beat both of them.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> Rashad has better movement than Shogun and his timing is pretty good, he's also got a solid wrestling base to try and get Machida down as well has having a solid chin and good cardio. He's also really fast. He is a tougher challenge for Machida than Shogun, I'm not the only one that says this.
> 
> The reason why I said he's a mild threat is because Rashad has the better style to defeat someone like Machida, and you saw that happened there. He's a threat, but his style sure isn't. So, mixing the fact that Shogun is a game fighter and is really good with the fact that his style is terrible for Machida, I'd say he's a "mild threat".
> 
> What is the problem?


The nearest Machida came to losing was via triangle. Evans has no submission threat, whereas Shogun does.

You are reading too much into styles. Fights are not fought on paper. If it was that simple they would not need to fight in the first place we could just let people on the internet decide the result based on whose style is best.

You cannot dismiss Shogun's skills, I find it funny that the man who is actually fighting him would say he is a huge threat. Yet a fan who is not even getting in the cage sees him only as a mild threat.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Machida takes everyone highly, as he should. If he took fighters lightly, he would lose. However, since we as fans know he is taking it very serious, he will show up in top shape, and a top shape Machida is better than a top shape Shogun.

Submissions are a whole different topic, this topic is about Shogun's striking and that gif. However, if you wanted to go into submissions, Shogun's submission ratio is 1 win via submission and 2 losses via submission. So, if we were to swtich the topic to a "submission" debate I would still be very confident with Lyoto.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Combat Soul said:


> The nearest Machida came to losing was via triangle. Evans has no submission threat, whereas Shogun does.


Who has Shogun subbed again? Kevin Randleman, who is not exactly a sub defense wizard and... who else? Babalu is a strong BJJ black belt and subbed Shogun. I am not convinced that Shogun's BJJ is worth much more in a fight than Bonnar's (purplse belt IIRC) or Penn's (bb) or Thiago Silva's (bb) or Tito's (excellent defense, not sure if he has a high level belt) or Hoger's even (also a bb), all of whom Machida has beaten. 

Shogun has faced better competition than 2, maybe 3 of those five but the fact is he has never looked as good as he did using stomps and soccer kicks in Pride, and subbing guys was never how he finished fights, before or since. Not sure why you bring up his submission skillset as the deciding factor. Machida is a BJJ black belt himself and honestly I'm not convinced Shogun is significantly more skilled than. Possibly less so.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> Machida takes everyone highly, as he should. If he took fighters lightly, he would lose. However, since we as fans know he is taking it very serious, he will show up in top shape, and a top shape Machida is better than a top shape Shogun.
> 
> Submissions are a whole different topic, this topic is about Shogun's striking and that gif. However, if you wanted to go into submissions, Shogun's submission ratio is 1 win via submission and 2 losses via submission. So, if we were to swtich the topic to a "submission" debate I would still be very confident with Lyoto.


No it was regarding Evans being more of a threat than Shogun. Nice try though. So that 1 submission is more than Evans has got and with Machida nearly being choked out means Shogun has 100% more threat than Evans.

So if your hero is taking Shogun seriously maybe you should. It will soften the blow for the day he finally loses. Just admit Shogun is a top fighter and a legitimate threat, put aside your raging bias.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

I think people ITT are writing off Forrest still. :\ IMO he has the best chance of beating Machida (due to his game planning etc)


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## Nomale (Apr 22, 2007)

One thing I'm curious about is the 'timing' issue Rua was talking about. Something I would call a "hole" in Machida's defence is that he doesn't keep his chin down very well, which a lot of karate guys don't. However that hasn't really mattered so far since his movement is so good so nobody has been able to catch him. But Rua might be able to with patience and good timing. 

Also, Rua is very fluid in his movements which I think the Liddell fight showed, and I think that will help him against Machida.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

TraMaI said:


> Michael I want to rep you so much right now but I cant. I'm sorry people but Michael obviously knows what he's talking about, regardless of if you want to say "he only did that because it was Chuck" or whatever, he did the same thing against Coleman. Lyoto throwing from odd angles with those crazy fast kicks is going to destroy Shogun, sorry.
> 
> Michael that was a schooling, you'll have rep your way as soon as I can dude.


Consider it done.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

HexRei said:


> Who has Shogun subbed again? Kevin Randleman, who is not exactly a sub defense wizard and... who else? Babalu is a strong BJJ black belt and subbed Shogun. I am not convinced that Shogun's BJJ is worth much more in a fight than Bonnar's (bb) or Penn's (bb) or Thiago Silva's (bb) or Tito's (excellent defense, not sure if he has a high level belt) or Hoger's even (also a bb), all of whom Machida has beaten.
> 
> Shogun has faced better competition than 2, maybe 3 of those five but the fact is he has never looked as good as he did using stomps and soccer kicks in Pride, and subbing guys was never how he finished fights, before or since. Not sure why you bring up his submission skillset as the deciding factor. Machida is a BJJ black belt himself and honestly I'm not convinced Shogun is significantly more skilled than. Possibly less so.


Because the closest Machida has come to losing is via triangle, fairly obvious why it would be brought up.

Machida seems to have attracted an internet fan base who have taken the stance point that he can never lose.

Oh yeah Machida he is God, Shogun he is a can obviously and wy is he even bothering to turn up at 104?. Anyone comes up with a suggestion other than Machida via tooling and the fan boys scoff at the thought of their hero actually being put under pressure, not to mention lose heaven forbid.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Do my bidding minions >:[










j/k <3 you guys


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Combat Soul said:


> Because the closest Machida has come to losing is via triangle, fairly obvious why it would be brought up.
> 
> Machida seems to have attracted an internet fan base who have taken the stance point that he can never lose.
> 
> Oh yeah Machida he is God, Shogun he is a can obviously and wy is he even bothering to turn up at 104?. Anyone comes up with a suggestion other than Machida via tooling and the fan boys scoff at the thought of their hero actually being put under pressure, not to mention lose heaven forbid.


I'm sure Machida can be beaten, I just can't figure out what would do it, or who has that particular skillset at the moment.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Combat Soul said:


> Because the closest Machida has come to losing is via triangle, fairly obvious why it would be brought up.
> 
> Machida seems to have attracted an internet fan base who have taken the stance point that he can never lose.
> 
> Oh yeah Machida he is God, Shogun he is a can obviously and wy is he even bothering to turn up at 104?. Anyone comes up with a suggestion other than Machida via tooling and the fan boys scoff at the thought of their hero actually being put under pressure, not to mention lose heaven forbid.


kk troll man, calm down. I'm not saying Machida is unbeatable, but Shogun (IMO) has about a snowballs chance in hell of being the one to beat him.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

Nomale said:


> One thing I'm curious about is the 'timing' issue Rua was talking about. Something I would call a "hole" in Machida's defence is that he doesn't keep his chin down very well, which a lot of karate guys don't. However that hasn't really mattered so far since his movement is so good so nobody has been able to catch him. But Rua might be able to with patience and good timing.
> 
> Also, Rua is very fluid in his movements which I think the Liddell fight showed, and I think that will help him against Machida.


How dare you! Machida is impervious to strikes, Shogun has never hit anybody before in his life. Machida has already beaten the best 205ers out there it is a foregone conclusion.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Combat Soul said:


> No it was regarding Evans being more of a threat than Shogun. Nice try though. So that 1 submission is more than Evans has got and with Machida nearly being choked out means Shogun has 100% more threat than Evans.
> 
> So if your hero is taking Shogun seriously maybe you should. It will soften the blow for the day he finally loses. Just admit Shogun is a top fighter and a legitimate threat, put aside your raging bias.


Lol, going by your logic, Cro Cop still has the best chance at beating Fedor as Fujita rocked him. Just because Lyoto ALMOST got choked out by Tito, who he wasn't expecting to put up any submissions, doesn't mean a guy with good submissions is the biggest threat to Machida.

"Just admit Shogun is a top fighter"? I've done that many times in this thread by saying that Shogun is his biggest threat outside of Rashad, which is sad considering how he dismantled Rashad. 

I'm going to assume you know you have lost this debate and don't have an opinion that actually defends against what I am saying, so you will come back with lines like "your hero" and "admit Shogun is a top fighter(which I already said in this thread multiple times)".

:thumb02:


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

swpthleg said:


> I'm sure Machida can be beaten, I just can't figure out what would do it, or who has that particular skillset at the moment.


At least you can admit that. Would you not agree at everyone in the LHW division Shogun is in with one of the best chances?

Is this so hard to comprehend Machida sack swingers?


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

I'm not on Machida's nuts, I'm on GSP's, because they smell like Frenchie win.

Play nicely now.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

Michael Carson said:


> Lol, going by your logic, Cro Cop still has the best chance at beating Fedor as Fujita rocked him. Just because Lyoto ALMOST got choked out by Tito, who he wasn't expecting to put up any submissions, doesn't mean a guy with good submissions is the biggest threat to Machida.
> 
> "Just admit Shogun is a top fighter"? I've done that many times in this thread by saying that Shogun is his biggest threat outside of Rashad, which is sad considering how he dismantled Rashad.
> 
> ...


There is no debate you dismissed Shogun as a mild threat. I think the majority of people would admit he is a little more than a mild threat. That is the entire crux of the debate, you failed to grasp that and have gone to ridiculous lengths in order not to backtrack on your obsurd claim.

That is putting it 'mildly'.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Combat Soul said:


> Because the closest Machida has come to losing is via triangle, fairly obvious why it would be brought up.


 That doesn't make it obvious at all to me. While it could be argued that whopping seven seconds it took to break a locked sub is the closest Machida has ever been to being finished, Shogun has only 1 sub win on his record and that's via leglock. It makes no sense to me that you'd bring up Shogun's sub skills as if they have ever been a significant finisher in his fights.



> Machida seems to have attracted an internet fan base who have taken the stance point that he can never lose.
> 
> Oh yeah Machida he is God, Shogun he is a can obviously and wy is he even bothering to turn up at 104?. Anyone comes up with a suggestion other than Machida via tooling and the fan boys scoff at the thought of their hero actually being put under pressure, not to mention lose heaven forbid.


Many people Machida has fought are as accomplished or moreso in mma subs than Shogun, and he still beat them. Meanwhile Shogun got choked out by Griffin and Sobral. Go ahead and characterize me as some kind of Machida worshipper if it makes you feel better, but I'm talking about facts here.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

TraMaI said:


> kk troll man, calm down. I'm not saying Machida is unbeatable, but Shogun (IMO) has about a snowballs chance in hell of being the one to beat him.


What's that in aid of? Nobody even asked you, off you pop.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Why is he more than a "mild threat"? Rashad has a better chance at beating Machida because of his speed, camp, timing, cardio, wrestling base, power. The only thing Shogun has over Rashad in terms of fighting Machida is his BJJ, and Machida is a legit BJJ black belt and is a pretty strong guy in general, so taking him down in the first place will be difficult.

He is a threat because he's a top fighter and all top fighters can win, however, being that his style is not good to go up against Machida and that Rashad had a better chance at beating Machida than Shogun does, I'd say it is a "mild" threat.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Combat Soul said:


> At least you can admit that. Would you not agree at everyone in the LHW division Shogun is in with one of the best chances?
> 
> Is this so hard to comprehend Machida sack swingers?


Before you go throwing insult maybe you should take Shogun's balls out of your mouth dude. This is getting sort of ridiculous. You're accusing all of us as being nut huggers when you're doing it yourself. 

And TBH, no Shogun isn't the person who has the best shot at beating Machida. He doesn't have the hand speed or power to do it (Machida is way faster and I think the person to beat Machida needs one punch KO power on a steady basis, which shogun doesnt posses). Rampage, Forrest and Rashad all have a much better chance at dethroning him than Shogun does and IMO, Shogun just got handed a shot after KOing an obviously past his prime chuck (KO'd in 3 out of his last 4 losses [in 5 fights]) and had a far less than good showing against an aged Mark Coleman, and then could barely even finish him after he was well gassed. The only reason he's even fighting Machida is because Rampage and Rashad are tied up with TUF and Forrest is fighting Silva. Hell I'd even pick Jon Jones to beat Machida over Shogun because he brings his unpredictability to the table. Shogun is nothing that Machida hasn't already fought and demolished IMO. Sorry to be the one to break the news.

P.S. My earlier post was because you're spouting off about how we're all on Machida's nuts because we dont think Shogun will beat him.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

HexRei said:


> That doesn't make it obvious at all to me. While it could be argued that whopping seven seconds it took to break a locked sub is the closest Machida has ever been to being finished, Shogun has only 1 sub win on his record and that's via leglock. It makes no sense to me that you'd bring up Shogun's sub skills as if they have ever been a significant finisher in his fights.
> 
> 
> Many people Machida has fought are as accomplished or moreso in mma subs than Shogun, and he still beat them. Meanwhile Shogun got choked out by Griffin and Sobral. Go ahead and characterize me as some kind of Machida worshipper if it makes you feel better, but I'm talking about facts here.


Right but we are talking about a guy who has not been beaten yet so there is no blue print. The nearest thing would be to look at moments where he looked vunerable or close to being finished. The triangle vs Ortiz is the most obvious, possibly only one in recent memory so it is something to start with.

Why are we even going to have these threads if Machida wins so easily? What do we talk about? Sheesh Machida is going to fight the best fighter he has ever faced but everyone is going on like he knocked him out already.


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## LCRaiders (Apr 7, 2008)

It would be pretty funny if Shogun actually beat Machida after everything that you guys are saying 

But IMO I don't see it happening..


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Do I have to make everybody go in separate threads??


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

But I was here first, Mrs. Swpthleg. 

It's cool, I'm sort of done with it anyways, I have all my points across and this place is getting pretty chaotic. I post and there's like 5 posts ahead of mine already.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

swpthleg said:


> Do I have to make everybody go in separate threads??


Can we go in our own thread swp bb


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Combat Soul said:


> Right but we are talking about a guy who has not been beaten yet so there is no blue print. The nearest thing would be to look at moments where he looked vunerable or close to being finished. The triangle vs Ortiz is the most obvious, possibly only one in recent memory so it is something to start with.
> 
> Why are we even going to have these threads if Machida wins so easily? What do we talk about? Sheesh Machida is going to fight the best fighter he has ever faced but everyone is going on like he knocked him out already.


I'd start somewhere else. I.e. someone who is able to match his clinchwork and takedowns. A guy that has beaten Tito even more soundly. A guy that has spent much of his career fighting guys bigger than himself or Machida, and won more titles than anyone in the UFC. I.e. RANDY EFFIN COUTURE!


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

TraMaI said:


> Before you go throwing insult maybe you should take Shogun's balls out of your mouth dude. This is getting sort of ridiculous. You're accusing all of us as being nut huggers when you're doing it yourself.
> 
> And TBH, no Shogun isn't the person who has the best shot at beating Machida. He doesn't have the hand speed or power to do it (Machida is way faster and I think the person to beat Machida needs one punch KO power on a steady basis, which shogun doesnt posses). Rampage, Forrest and Rashad all have a much better chance at dethroning him than Shogun does and IMO, Shogun just got handed a shot after KOing an obviously past his prime chuck (KO'd in 3 out of his last 4 losses [in 5 fights]) and had a far less than good showing against an aged Mark Coleman, and then could barely even finish him after he was well gassed. The only reason he's even fighting Machida is because Rampage and Rashad are tied up with TUF and Forrest is fighting Silva. Hell I'd even pick Jon Jones to beat Machida over Shogun because he brings his unpredictability to the table. Shogun is nothing that Machida hasn't already fought and demolished IMO. Sorry to be the one to break the news.
> 
> P.S. My earlier post was because you're spouting off about how we're all on Machida's nuts because we dont think Shogun will beat him.


Who has Machida faced that is like Shogun?

And no I don't think people are on his (Machida's) nuts because they don't think Shogun can beat him. There is nothing wrong with that it is the logical opinion. Being on Machida's nuts is dismissing Shogun like he is a can, with virtually no chance, that is all. - And that is all my freakin' point was.

It is 3am and I am going to bed. Gentlemen it has been emotional, many thanks for your input, goodnight.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Combat Soul said:


> Who has Machida faced that is like Shogun?
> 
> And no I don't think people are on his (Machida's) nuts because they don't think Shogun can beat him. There is nothing wrong with that it is the logical opinion. Being on Machida's nuts is dismissing Shogun like he is a can, with virtually no chance, that is all. - And that is all my freakin' point was.
> 
> It is 3am and I am going to bed. Gentlemen it has been emotional, many thanks for your input, goodnight.


refer to this post.

Rashad had faster hands and still got outstruck. Thiago Silva has great MT and got out struck. Pretty much all of them are BJJ black belts. Shogun brings nothing to the table he hasn't faced and destroyed already. If shogun has any sort of chance IMO it's a punchers chance.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

TraMaI said:


> refer to this post.
> 
> Rashad had faster hands and still got outstruck. Thiago Silva has great MT and got out struck. Pretty much all of them are BJJ black belts. Shogun brings nothing to the table he hasn't faced and destroyed already. If shogun has any sort of chance IMO it's a punchers chance.


Thiago Silva, who has he beaten again? His game plan can best be described as pathetic. He kept plodding forward with his hands down. As for Rashad I feel he is overrated and stood against the cage making stupid faces instead of concentrating on not getting KTFO.

We shall see if Shogun gets wasted I will gladly have this thread thrust in my face. but If Shogun puts up a good fight then my point is validated.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Combat Soul said:


> Thiago Silva, who has he beaten again? His game plan can best be described as pathetic. He kept plodding forward with his hands down. As for Rashad I feel he is overrated and stood against the cage making stupid faces instead of concentrating on not getting KTFO.
> 
> We shall see if Shogun gets wasted I will gladly have this thread thrust in my face. but If Shogun puts up a good fight then my point is validated.


If he simply puts up a good fight I don't see how that makes him better than Sam Hoger.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

HexRei said:


> If he simply puts up a good fight I don't see how that makes him better than Sam Hoger.


It would make him better than Evans. It is a start, if he can disturb the air of invincibility, put some hurtin' on him it will encourage others it can be done.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

HexRei said:


> If he simply puts up a good fight I don't see how that makes him better than Sam Hoger.


This. 

Also, it seems to me that Rashad had the same plan that Shogun is going with. 

And Rashad didnt get totaled because he was against the fence, he got rocked in the center of the Octagon and pushed back to the fence where he was promptly disposed of.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

A man who has barely ever been hit, has NEVER lost a recorded round, and is LHW champion after destroying an undefeated fighter.

How dare we think he's not going to be beat by Shogun? We must be fools.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

btw, yes the neg rep was me. And it was most assuredly a troll post. kthxbi.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

TraMaI said:


> This.
> 
> Also, it seems to me that Rashad had the same plan that Shogun is going with.
> 
> And Rashad didnt get totaled because he was against the fence, he got rocked in the center of the Octagon and pushed back to the fence where he was promptly disposed of.


He seemed to find the time to try and showboat before he got dispatched. Shogun could look to use some leg kicks to disrupt Machida's swift footwork.



TraMaI said:


> btw, yes the neg rep was me. And it was most assuredly a troll post. kthxbi.


Whatever, you're an e-bad ass. You and your gangster talk.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Combat Soul said:


> He seemed to find the time to try and showboat before he got dispatched. Shogun could look to use some leg kicks to disrupt Machida's swift footwork.


I agree with the leg kicks being a key to disrupting Machida's technique, but easier said than done. I'm sure most fighters have gone in there with the thought process "just three leg kicks and he won't be as evasive." 

But Lyoto's leg kicks are some of the strongest I've ever witnessed. And his ability to avoid leg kicks is impeccable.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> I agree with the leg kicks being a key to disrupting Machida's technique, but easier said than done. I'm sure most fighters have gone in there with the thought process "just three leg kicks and he won't be as evasive."
> 
> But Lyoto's leg kicks are some of the strongest I've ever witnessed. And his ability to avoid leg kicks is impeccable.


It is his distance, he gets it spot on. Somehow Shogun needs to try and make him the aggressor and mess up his distance and timing. Of course it is easy to say it but these are they keys to his success timing and space(footwork), disrupt either one and Machida will be out of his comfort zone then we will see how he reacts.


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## jeffmantx (Jun 19, 2009)

Wow a Machida vrs Shogun thread its alittle early for this but hey I love it.

1. Everytime Machida fights the opponent has the best chance of beating him lol so saying Shogun has the best chance really isnt an issue. People keep saying it for some reason and he keeps destroying them lol.

2. Everyones on Shoguns nuts about leg kicks I think his leg kicks are great but I think Machidas kicks are just as deadly hence the Evans fight he was hurting him.

3. If Shogun decides to be patient I think it will backfire he will freeze when Machida feints just like everyone does anyone notice that its so funny like a deer in headlights. They forget to commit to an attack. 

Anyway will wait for a reply good or bad. Shout out to Coldcall420 I know your lurking with machida daggers in hand. Did you get that rep? hope so.
War Machida!!!


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

The battle lines have been drawn!

Carson is right. Shoguns going to lose, but I'd do anything for him to win with him and Wandy going upwards in the UFC that's allll. 
BUT a loss to Machida, if it happens, doesn't really shoot you all the way to the bottom. Rashad has become an elite fighter, and he was tooled.


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## Nomale (Apr 22, 2007)

Michael Carson said:


> Why is he more than a "mild threat"? Rashad has a better chance at beating Machida because of his speed, camp, timing, cardio, wrestling base, power. The only thing Shogun has over Rashad in terms of fighting Machida is his BJJ, and Machida is a legit BJJ black belt and is a pretty strong guy in general, so taking him down in the first place will be difficult.
> 
> He is a threat because he's a top fighter and all top fighters can win, however, being that his style is not good to go up against Machida and that Rashad had a better chance at beating Machida than Shogun does, I'd say it is a "mild" threat.


Although I agree with you to some extent it's a bit silly to be so firm regarding style vs style. I'd say the individual character is very important as well, probably even more so. For example where are the mental aspects? I was not impressed by Rashads mental aspect of his fight against Machida. To be able to make good desicions, change gameplan if it isn't working, be flexible and inventive are examples which are very important and I did not see much of those in Rashad. 

Also, it may be a not far fetched possibility that Machida just happens to be good at fighting that type of fighter you described which on paper may seem better suited to beat him. 

It could be not so obvious things in Rua's arsenal which could prove difficult for Machida to deal with.


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## jeffmantx (Jun 19, 2009)

Nomale said:


> Although I agree with you to some extent it's a bit silly to be so firm regarding style vs style. I'd say the individual character is very important as well, probably even more so. For example where are the mental aspects? I was not impressed by Rashads mental aspect of his fight against Machida. To be able to make good desicions, change gameplan if it isn't working, be flexible and inventive are examples which are very important and I did not see much of those in Rashad.
> 
> Also, it may be a not far fetched possibility that Machida just happens to be good at fighting that type of fighter you described which on paper may seem better suited to beat him.
> 
> It could be not so obvious things in Rua's arsenal which could prove difficult for Machida to deal with.


So if Machida beats Shogun and Rampage beats Evans will Rampage have the tools to beat Machida I see a pattern forming lol have also heard Randy and Jon Jones have the tools to beat Machida haha. The speculation goes on I find it funny.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Rashad was fine going into the Machida fight, there wasn't anything wrong with his mental state. He could have been a bit more nervous or worried, but that's what happens in your first title defense. He did switch up his plan in the second, he went from being on the outside the whole time, to pushing the pace more, which eventually lead to him being knocked out.

Machida is good at fighting what type of fighter? He beat a solid judo fighter who is explosive and fast in Sokky, he defeated a good wrestler who is very strong in Tito, he defeated an aggresive striker with knockout power in Thiago, he defeated a fast, explosive, powerful guy who has great timing and the ability to follow a solid gameplan that was created by a high level trainer in Jackson.

Everyone Machida faces is "the one to have the style to defeat him". We hear it time and time again. There is no style left for him to beat. The only thing Shogun has going for him in this fight that Machida has yet to deal with from another opponent is that he is well-rounded in the sense that he is good at everything. However, Rashad is good at striking and wrestling, he's also faster, more explosive, and holds more power than Shogun in his fists. So, you can even almost say Machida has fought someone who is well-rounded as well, except Rashad isn't known for his BJJ, which doesn't matter as the fight didn't even hit the ground.


Look, do you think I ever thought I'd be sitting here telling people on this forum that Shogun has such a low chance at defeating someone? Hell no, I never thought I'd be doing this. However, Machida came along and has shown more impressive skills and has advantages in most areas of this fight.

What can I say?




This is not Shogun.


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## jeffmantx (Jun 19, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> Rashad was fine going into the Machida fight, there wasn't anything wrong with his mental state. He could have been a bit more nervous or worried, but that's what happens in your first title defense. He did switch up his plan in the second, he went from being on the outside the whole time, to pushing the pace more, which eventually lead to him being knocked out.
> 
> Machida is good at fighting what type of fighter? He beat a solid judo fighter who is explosive and fast in Sokky, he defeated a good wrestler who is very strong in Tito, he defeated an aggresive striker with knockout power in Thiago, he defeated a fast, explosive, powerful guy who has great timing and the ability to follow a solid gameplan that was created by a high level trainer in Jackson.
> 
> ...


Havnt you learned everyone Machida faces has the tools to beat him lol Rampage has the chin and Ko power Forrest has the heart Randy has the game plan Jon Jones has youth and crazy throws that should cover a few upcoming fights comeon michael laugh with me.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> Everyone Machida faces is "the one to have the style to defeat him". We hear it time and time again. _*There is no style left for him to beat.*_ The only thing Shogun has going for him in this fight that Machida has yet to deal with from another opponent is that he is well-rounded inthe sense that he is good at everything. However, Rashad is good at striking and wrestling, he's also faster, more explosive, and holds more power than Shogun in his fists. So, you can even almost say Machida has fought someone who is well-rounded as well, except Rashad isn't known for his BJJ, which doesn't matter as the fight didn't even hit the ground.



I can agree. Lyoto's style is certainly beatable. But MMA has become a distinct kind of martial art in itself, and it does not work well against Lyoto's style. 

Machida has said it, his trainers have said it, commentators have said it. He's the Gracie of our generation, a style specifically designed to beat the current MMA style. Until someone with a radical style comes along, Lyoto will continue to beat top-tier competitors.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Yeah, I agree, khoveraki.

Machida will be defeated one day, as will Fedor, or anyone else who is undefeated. However, as I've stated many times in this thread and others, Shogun will not be the one to do it.

I think I've said my peace for this thread.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> Yeah, I agree, khoveraki.
> 
> Machida will be defeated one day, as will Fedor, or anyone else who is undefeated. However, as I've stated many times in this thread and others, Shogun will not be the one to do it.
> 
> I think I've said my peace for this thread.


Agreed, retire early or accept you'll have a loss. Fedor already has a "loss" if you consider the bronze he finally took last year in the ***** competitions. After winning 10 gold medals, he proved he is human. As will Lyoto.


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## name goes here (Aug 15, 2007)

Machida wins despite his style, because he also is great at every area. Strength speed striking bjj wrestling etc. His biggest threat would be A.Silva.

Rashad got the fight due to a Forest Griffin brain fart, who would beat Rashad in 7 times out of 10. Forest would be a good opponent for Machida, based mainly on the reach and size.

Rampage has in his last couple of fights become very limited and predictable. He's not the fighter he was in Pride. 

Shogun in Pride had power and speed, he doesn't anymore, he needs more warm up fights, 3 or so fights down the road maybe he could take Machida, right now I don't see it. 

Randy would be an awesome opponent for Machida.


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

I've already talked all I have about Shogun's ground game, as I think it's one of the best at the LHW.

As the fight? Shogun wins in round 2... by hotness. Machida is pretty good lookin' man, but Shogun, jeez louise he should have a personal fire fighter team following him at all times because of how hot he is. 

I say round 2, because Machida's glorious locks will help him survive a round, but after that? Shogun wins in devastating fashion. There will be a battle, a _hot_ and _sexy_ battle.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Michael Carson said:


> Actually it's not, these are huge holes in his defense that are easy to see, it's pretty plain and simple. If you look at other strikers, you will notice most do not make these mistakes.


Again you make these totally left field general expert statements without any examples or proof. Most other strikers don't make these "mistakes"? Like who? Just for argument, let's take Machida, since you seem to be implying that he has "perfect" defense. I'll point out these same "mistakes" in his fight with Rashad here and refer to it throughout the post (sorry, I'd make gifs but don't have all that set up):

http://www.mma-core.com/videos/_Lyoto_Machida_vs_Rashad_Evans_UFC_98_HD?vid=10005327

btw there is no such thing as perfect defense ... otherwise it'd be pointless to fight, it'd be like fighting an impenetrable tank with a stick. In real fighting defense, you will always leave *something* open when you defend something else, it's just the nature of the game, it's about reacting to the particular strikes your opponent is throwing. Of course you leave your body "wide open" when you defend your head, you can't defend everything at once, you only have two arms. Oh wait, there is a technique to defend everything at once, it's called turtling up and wait for the ref to save your ass.




Michael Carson said:


> Shogun moves back in a straight line almost the whole fight, both times Chuck charges him he moves back straight. He hasn't "mixed up" his movement in a while.


So does Machida in that Evans fight. Look at 12:50, or 12:44, or 14:20 or... heck wait a minute, Machida moves STRAIGHT BACK, for EVERY STRIKE Rashad throws at him. And not to mention his legs are completely parallel at 11:55, and 12:14, 12:19, 12:50 and all over the place. Oh wow, Greg Jackson and his thinktank are gonna be all over these "mistakes", Rashad's gonna kill this guy ... oh wait.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with moving straight back as long as you circle and dodge when you need to. Shogun did a lot of weaving during his movement. And having your legs parallel is bad for extended periods of time, but that's a *general*, not an absolute principle. If you are reacting to a power punch thrown to your head, it's more important to dodge that strike than to worry about exactly how parallel your legs are for a split second. It's a fight, it's fluid, split second action and reaction.



Michael Carson said:


> Yes, if he does not do it often then you would not catch this in the middle of an excahnge, but since Shogun OFTEN moves back in a straight line, someone can see this as a hole to exploit, as you can expect it to come. Also, he dodged punches, looping ones at that. If Chuck were to have used any kicks or stright punches(right between where Shogun's hands are, as they are in the EXACT same place every single time), he would have hurt Shogun.


Did you even watch the gif before making your stereotypical "Chuck throws looping punches" argument? Most, if not all of those punches, are straight jabs and crosses, right down the pipe. "If" Chuck had thrown straight punches? Wtf? And of course he was *trying* to aim between where Shogun's hands are, that's the point, Shogun dodged them by moving his head out of wherever Chuck aimed. It didn't matter that his chin and nose was exposed, EVERY fighters chin or nose is exposed from some angle, ALWAYS. That's why you dodge. You can't physically cover them up without turtling up, if you bring your fists to the front, you leave your sides open for hooks and vice versa. You only defend and react to the particular strike being thrown at you at the time, not every possible strike that could theoretically be thrown, that's impossible and absurd. 



Michael Carson said:


> His head goes side to side, he only changes levels right after the initial attack, as he was already in the middle of changing levels. After that, he moves back with his head up and slight side to side movement. Yes, predictable, it's the same movement on a constant basis.


Um no. Again, what gif are you watching? His head goes down to the left with the hook he throws, then bobs and weaves side to side twice (both at lower level). This is where the "side to side" thing ends. Then he bobs back up and goes to right. Then drops straight down again while staying to the right, and pops back up while staying to the right. Side-to-side, it is not. Predictable, hardly, and perfectly in response to the particular strikes thrown at him. I seriously have no idea what you're looking at. Besides, when you dodge to one side, you will eventually come back and dodge to the other randomly to mix it up, it's far more predictable if you just keep leaning to the same side. In other words, side to side is *good*, it's one of the first things you learn in boxing defence, as long as it's not a complete timed pendulum motion. Which it certainly is not, as I explained, you just make it sound like that based on some imaginary gif you're playing in your head. This side-to-side movement is the entire baseis for the "peek-a-boo" boxing style, one of the most successful defense styles in modern boxing used by Mike Tyson and others to destroy their opponents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peek-a-Boo_(boxing_style)




Michael Carson said:


> His hands are in the exact same position every single time. It's in a position to block looping punches, but straight punches can get through his defense quite easily, especially since he moves back in a straight line often. Of course MMA gloves don't cover the whole face, but when your defense looks and feels exactly the same each and everytime you defend it is really easy to time and break through.


So does EVERY fighter. It's called picking a "guard", a style of blocking and countering, and sticking to it, this is basic boxing 101. Mike Tyson used a "peek-a-boo" guard, he ALWAYS had his hands straight up in front to block the straight punches, while leaving himself vulnerable to hooks. Then he'd open it up momentarily while unloading, hence the term "peek-a-boo". Yes, he always had them up the same way. All boxers and fighters pick a way to carry their hands, and they stick to it. What exactly is wrong with that? What alternative do you suggest?



Michael Carson said:


> My point is in this gif, Shogun is not moving to the side, he is not far away, he is right there, moving back in a straight line and if Chuck were to have used kicks, Shogun would have been hit very easily by them. Against someone like Machida, Shogun will not get away with such a thing. The only reason this gif shows Shogun being able to dodge all the strikes is because Liddell did not use any kicks.
> 
> 
> The gif shows good reacting and doging for someone who uses no kicks, only uses looping punches, and doesn't have the timing to exploit the holes in Shogun's defense. Against Machida, these mistakes can and will be exploited. This gif does nothing to prove or show that Shogun's defensive striking is anything that Machida won't be able to exploit.


Yes, Shogun is staying within range of Chuck, and this allows him to counter. What exactly is wrong with that? You make these random criticisms that are just pure opinion without having any backing in boxing/standup martial arts theory. There is no rule that says you HAVE to get out of range if your opponent attacks, if you can stay in the pocket while dodging and counter, that is even better. IF Chuck threw a kick, THEN Shogun could have countered that too.. you can't say, oh look, Shogun is doing nothing to block a kick. No shit, Chuck didn't throw one. You counter what's being thrown at you, and if Chuck threw one, Shogun's movement was fluid enough to change levels etc., and his hands were up at the sides of his head for that exact reason. 

I'm saying it's very easy to point out potential openings for something else when one is countering a particular attack. Everybody leaves em open, including Machida, that's why it's an art and a dance, you never have all your holes covered, you expose one to cover another.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Liddellianenko said:


> Again you make these totally left field general expert statements without any examples or proof. Most other strikers don't make these "mistakes"? Like who? Just for argument, let's take Machida, since you seem to be implying that he has "perfect" defense. I'll point out these same "mistakes" in his fight with Rashad here and refer to it throughout the post (sorry, I'd make gifs but don't have all that set up):
> 
> http://www.mma-core.com/videos/_Lyoto_Machida_vs_Rashad_Evans_UFC_98_HD?vid=10005327
> 
> ...


Honestly, I've already stated everything I can in this thread, as I said in my last few posts, so I don't have anything to add except what I've already stated.

I'll make a few points, though:

Machida's karate style allows him to move backwards without being caught, it is because he leans back and his defense is BASED on movement, be it straight back or side to side. He leans his head back as that IS his defense, he doesn't cover up his head with his hands much. Shogun, on the other hand, covers his head as he has a forward stance, so it is open if he does not. However, the placement of his hands are in the exact same spot every single time. If you know where his hands are going to go when he covers, you will know what openings you can get the MMA gloves to fit into. You can't compare Machida's stance and defense to Shogun's or anyone elses' in MMA right now, as it is completely different. 

You talk about Shogun staying in the pocket instead of moving out so he can "counter" Chuck, and that if Chuck were to have thrown a kick, he would have countered that as well. Really? REALLY? Shogun was in NO place to counter any kick while moving back like that. Kicks would have landed quite easily, especially if you have someone who can time them well.

Side to side movement isn't "good" when you do it on a constant basis. Now, you talk a lot about Boxing in your post, well, we aren't talking about Boxing, now are we? side to side movement can be a bad thing when it is your ONLY defense. It is actually quite a bad idea to do unless you mix up your defense well, as it is easy to time head kicks and other strikes when your opponent knows you are going from side to side.

The gif shows Shogun moving his head side to side, and only changing levels at the start of it. Half way through, his head is UP, and he is moving in a straight line backwards while Chuck rushes in more. Also, Chuck's punches were not straight down the middle, they were hooks and crosses, there were no straight punches in that "exchange".

As far as a "perfect defense" goes, I never said there was one. You act as if I said Machida has a perfect defense? All I said was that Shogun, in that gif, shows a lack of defense against a guy who does more than throw hooks and wide punches. 

Shogun's legs going parallel was an observation that if Machida were to time his straight back movement, he could catch Shogun while his legs are parallel, as when you move back, there is a much higher chance of this happening.

Yes, of course you leave something open at all time, you cannot defend everything at once. However, if Shogun(as he did in that gif) stays in the pocket and decides to cover up and move straight back, someone like Machida will no problems using kicks and straight punches to hurt everything Shogun has that is open. 

This whole conversation, the whole point of me breaking down that gif, was to show Shogun's lack of defense against a guy like Machida who has great timing and uses kicks often as well as straight punches, two things Liddell does not do. Against a guy like Rampage, his defense works just fine, Rampage isn't going to kick him in the body or trip him down. But we're not talking about a fighter like Rampage, are we? No, we're talking about a guy that uses kicks and is very good at timing.

Shogun's defense is lacking against someone who has good timing and is very good at mixing up his strikes. Shogun moved back like that every single time Chuck rushed in. If Chuck were to have kicked him It wouldn't have worked well for Shogun, as he would have been eating kicks to the body/legs.

If you read this whole thread, you will see that I've stated that Shogun does have good striking, and that he is the toughest fight for Machida other than Rashad. However, his defense against a guy like Machida who has such good timing and the ability to exolpit even the smallest holes or mistakes, is not going to work very well for him, and if you go by that gif, it shows.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

THIS is mainly for Liddellienenko and Micheal Carson.......its for Micheal cuz he already knows and foe Liddellienenko so he see........


Hopefully this will help to settle some of this deep debate....BTW.....both you guys make good points, but you know where my heart is so i'll just pst the link...lol.....TBH this came from Norway1.....

http://www.mmaforum.com/mma-fighting-techniques-videos/59098-lyoto-machidas-elusive-footwork.html


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

SuicideJohnson said:


> Shogun is in the perfect position to surprize a lot of people. To say he CAN'T beat Machida is a little silly. Both guys have such sick technique, and I can't think of any other LHW who would have a better chance than Shogun. (except Rashad...........................  )
> 
> 
> I know, it's Chuck, not Machida, but come on, recognize the skills of Shogun are back to at least make for an AWESOME fight.
> ...


Thats a nice gif of Rua kicking Chucks ribs, if he wasnt backing up chuck might have some broken ribs, he placed it perfect, man I hope its not a lopsided fight or boring.:thumbsup:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

SuicideJohnson said:


> Shogun is in the perfect position to surprize a lot of people. To say he CAN'T beat Machida is a little silly. Both guys have such sick technique, and I can't think of any other LHW who would have a better chance than Shogun. (except Rashad...........................  )
> 
> 
> I know, it's Chuck, not Machida, but come on, recognize the skills of Shogun are back to at least make for an AWESOME fight.
> ...


 
All I see is a retreating Shogun who barely connects with that kick and misses terribly with a looping right hook.......


This is the fottage you use to make a claim he will beat a guy that averages getting hit once every 2.5 rounds????


I think not........we have a long time to wait guys and Im telling you Machida will end with his hand raised....then he will go on to beat Rampage who Rashad is afraid of.......

You heard it here.......IMHO:thumb02:


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> All I see is a retreating Shogun who barely connects with that kick and misses terribly with a looping right hook.......
> 
> 
> This is the fottage you use to make a claim he will beat a guy that averages getting hit once every 2.5 rounds????
> ...



:sarcastic12: I don't make the gifs myself obviously, I only used them to show how he didn't fold under Chuck's pressure. As far as everyone saying this "footage" shows his weaknesses, whatever, a fight is so much more dynamic than simply knowing the techniques and looking at it afterwards. 
I still have basically said Machida would win, but if everyone on this forum continued to say that, it really would be the big bunch of nuthuggers that other people think it is. So I root for Rua and show some glimpses of his heart and talent. Shogun knows what he is getting into I'm sure.

And barely connects with the kick? That looks pretty hard and fast for a retreating kick to me... seemed to hurt Chuck quite a bit.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

GodlyMoose said:


> I've already talked all I have about Shogun's ground game, as I think it's one of the best at the LHW.
> 
> As the fight? Shogun wins in round 2... by hotness. Machida is pretty good lookin' man, but Shogun, jeez louise he should have a personal fire fighter team following him at all times because of how hot he is.
> 
> I say round 2, because Machida's glorious locks will help him survive a round, but after that? Shogun wins in devastating fashion. There will be a battle, a _hot_ and _sexy_ battle.


Wait....what?!


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## wateva (Jun 1, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> All I see is a retreating Shogun who barely connects with that kick and misses terribly with a looping right hook.......
> 
> 
> This is the fottage you use to make a claim he will beat a guy that averages getting hit once every 2.5 rounds????
> ...


I dont get why people think rampage is going to win so easily against rashad. Rampage is not a really good striker he just has ko power when he connects but he is pretty slow. The only thing Rampage has is a great defense and counters inside the pocket but Shogun showed us what happens when you get him in a clinch so even then I wouldnt consider that his advantage.

Rashad has great footwork and good punching style and also good defense. The reason he lost to machida was because machida is so great at timing. Rashad was trying to play the waiting game and machida is just to fast to do this. Rampage would get picked apart so fast by machida because he is so slow and predictable.

By the way I like rampage but matching him with machida is just a horrible match up for him imo. 

As far as shogun vs machida I think its a pretty good match up. But I still think machida will take it but it will probably be a lot closer than people are thinking. Machida is not unbeatable people just havent figured out his karate technique yet and thats what makes him so difficult but as time goes on I can definitely see people figuring out his style and making a game plan around it.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

SuicideJohnson said:


> :sarcastic12: I don't make the gifs myself obviously, I only used them to show how he didn't fold under Chuck's pressure. As far as everyone saying this "footage" shows his weaknesses, whatever, a fight is so much more dynamic than simply knowing the techniques and looking at it afterwards.
> I still have basically said Machida would win, but if everyone on this forum continued to say that, it really would be the big bunch of nuthuggers that other people think it is. So I root for Rua and show some glimpses of his heart and talent. Shogun knows what he is getting into I'm sure.
> 
> And barely connects with the kick? That looks pretty hard and fast for a retreating kick to me... seemed to hurt Chuck quite a bit.


 
Not sure what this means:sarcastic12: Considering the GIF shows exactly what I posted but if you need to go back and look at the looping right hook that totally misses(you know cuz Shogun is a devestating striker), then just go look at the fottage you provided......

Its not:sarcastic12: when its there is video for all to see, thats what gets to me about some people on this forum, even after seeing, they still dont believe.......:confused02:


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> All I see is a retreating Shogun who *barely connects with that kick* and misses terribly with a looping right hook.......
> 
> 
> This is the fottage you use to make a claim he will beat a guy that averages getting hit once every 2.5 rounds????
> ...




not saying that was a jardine kick..but barely connects?



Some people need to lay off Machidas sac a little bit. A year ago his fans were whining about him deserving a title shot. Dana didnt give him one because he was a boring fighter. He turns it up ..beats Thiago and Rashad..now Machidas fans think he is some unstoppable force. Since he's won the title i've read everything from "Machida over Shogun/Rampage(before he did Tuf) KO RD 2." 

Everyones enitled to their pre-fight prediction but to think a fighter with over half his wins coming by decision is going to KO/TK0 a guy who has never been knocked out is delusional.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

mwhite18 said:


> not saying that was a jardine kick..but barely connects?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Learn some MMA........1st. Some people, are you referring to me, cuz i have been on the Machida wagon as long as anyone, and BTW, I am entitled to like him as a fighter he also studies the same disciplines I did....thank you!

2nd. he wasnt boring to those who understand his style and he didnt "turn it up a bit" he continued to evolve.....there's a difference......

3rd. He finishes fights and with the evolution of his game it is certainly not out of the possibility that he could K/O rampage or Shogun.......

4th and finally.....lol Rashad was a fighter that had never been Knocked out...and guess what???? HE WAS........so why is it so out of the realm of possibility that he does that to Shogun.....Answer...its not......:thumbsup:

You can be a fan of whoever you like but there are still somethings that wont change regardless of who your favorite fighter is.........you see alot of people talkin about Machida...wel you have about 200 posts or so, I bet if your stick around for a while you will see a wider arrray of opinions.......

Dont assume I am biased, rather understand I employ logic to reach the conclusions I post.......:thumb02:


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## LCRaiders (Apr 7, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> Learn some MMA........1st. Some people, are you referring to me, cuz i have been on the Machida wagon as long as anyone, and BTW, I am entitled to like him as a fighter he also studies the same disciplines I did....thank you!
> 
> 2nd. he wasnt boring to those who understand his style and he didnt "turn it up a bit" he continued to evolve.....there's a difference......
> 
> ...


Do Work!


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Wait....what?!


You heard me right.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> Its not:sarcastic12: when its there is video for all to see, thats what gets to me about some people on this forum, even after seeing, they still dont believe.......:confused02:


Like you seeing a hard kick to the ribs and not believing it happened? I am not the most astute when it comes to stand-up technique that is for sure, but if it worked, it worked, and you were almost claiming it didn't, I understand you need to stick up for your boy, but I never claimed OH MAN LOOK AT SHOGUN'S CRAZY TECHNICAL ELUSIVENESS! Because there are dozens of cases where Machida has been 10x as elusive as anyone else, and that would be a stupid argument for me to get into.

Showing some of the more popular Gif's I could find of Shogun showing glimpses of not breaking under pressure, and one was just of a leglock that could snap a shin if applied completely. That's all I was doing.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

GodlyMoose said:


> I've already talked all I have about Shogun's ground game, as I think it's one of the best at the LHW.
> 
> As the fight? Shogun wins in round 2... by hotness. Machida is pretty good lookin' man, but Shogun, jeez louise he should have a personal fire fighter team following him at all times because of how hot he is.
> 
> I say round 2, because Machida's glorious locks will help him survive a round, but after that? Shogun wins in devastating fashion. There will be a battle, a _hot_ and _sexy_ battle.





GodlyMoose said:


> You heard me right.


 
What does he wins in round 2 by hotness mean. Yes Shogun has a great ground game, your not making the mistake of assuming that just because you havent yet had the privilidge to see that much of Machida's ground game that its lacking????:confused02:

Fact is Shogun on the ground.......has finished 2 fights...as in two!!! So i am curious what this hotness is you speak of as the only one that really has hotness is he who gets hit once every 2.5 rounds and has never lost a round since entering the UFC......thats hotness......:thumb02:



SuicideJohnson said:


> Like you seeing a hard kick to the ribs and not believing it happened? I am not the most astute when it comes to stand-up technique that is for sure, but if it worked, it worked, and you were almost claiming it didn't, I understand you need to stick up for your boy, but I never claimed OH MAN LOOK AT SHOGUN'S CRAZY TECHNICAL ELUSIVENESS! Because there are dozens of cases where Machida has been 10x as elusive as anyone else, and that would be a stupid argument for me to get into.
> 
> Showing some of the more popular Gif's I could find of Shogun showing glimpses of not breaking under pressure, and one was just of a leglock that could snap a shin if applied completely. That's all I was doing.


 
I guess im tryin to point out that Lyoto doesnt put himself into a position to get hit by that kick, second, the punch...it goes right over Chucks head, the ankle lock sure its there, was Chuck able to get out of it????:confused02:

I didnt even think I was sticking up for "my boy" as much as just stating the obvious.....but my bad dude:thumbsup:


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> What does he wins in round 2 by hotness mean. Yes Shogun has a great ground game, your not making the mistake of assuming that just because you havent yet had the privilidge to see that much of Machida's ground game that its lacking????:confused02:
> 
> Fact is Shogun on the ground.......has finished 2 fights...as in two!!! So i am curious what this hotness is you speak of as the only one that really has hotness is he who gets hit once every 2.5 rounds and has never lost a round since entering the UFC......thats hotness......:thumb02:


Shogun is model material broski, in fact he use to model before fighting. Machida? Not so much. But Machida does have the hair of the God's themselves. 

As far as Shogun's ground game, you can't just gauge a person's ground game by how many wins he has by submissions, but by what you have seen him do on the ground. If we measured how good a fighter is on the ground by submissions wins then by that same logic you would be able to say Shogun has a better stand up game than Machida since he has more (t)ko's than Machida, which isn't the case. 

What we have seen from Shogun is much more impressive than what we have seen from Machida on the ground. The ground is not only about submissions, but also about controlling your opponents, transitioning, etc. Machida is obviously no slouch on the ground though, but not as good as Shogun in my opinion.


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

Seperator88 said:


> we all know how good shogun is or was more or less, but what has he really done to show anything in the UFC. I really hope his cardio and conditioning is top notch and he's not still trying to sell houses for his business in brasil and train only half the time, come on man youre probably gonna make more money as a ufc champion then you are in real estate.



are you serious?! he beat chuck liddle at his own game in the stand up where everyone thought he (chuck) would knock shogun out. open your eyes man.:sarcastic12:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

GodlyMoose said:


> Shogun is model material broski, in face he use to model before fighting. Machida? Not so much. But Machida does have the hair of the God's themselves.
> 
> As far as Shogun's ground game, you can't just gauge a person's ground game by how many wins he has by submissions, but by what you have seen him do on the ground. What we have seen from Shogun is much more impressive than what we have seen from Machida on the ground. *The ground is not only about submissions, but also about controlling your opponents, transitioning, etc*.


 
Absoloutely true.....Im just wondering when the last time was that some one was in Lyoto's guard????? To be honest i just dont see the fight even going that way as Rua was content to stand with Chuck I believe he will with Lyoto and this def isn't to Rua advantage....:thumbsup:


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> Absoloutely true.....Im just wondering when the last time was that some one was in Lyoto's guard????? To be honest i just dont see the fight even going that way as Rua was content to stand with Chuck I believe he will with Lyoto and this def isn't to Rua advantage....:thumbsup:


Well that's the thing, it's hard as hell to hit Machida since by the time he connects with the punch that isn't part of a combo he's already half way out of there. Machida's standing defense is some of the best, if not the best in MMA. 

Put that together with how he has some ridiculous take down defense, a lot of this has to do with his sumo background as well, along with a good enough ground game where he can't be submitted by most people, along with having some pretty good sweeps. Oh yeah, his stand up offense ain't too bad either. Oh by the way, when I said ain't too bad, I meant it's amazing.

There's a reason why a lot of people think Machida will remain undefeated. Heck, since 2007 I've been saying Machida will be the LHW champ. But from the clinch and trips I believe he is still susceptible too, which Shogun is pretty good at both. Here's the thing about Shogun, he likes to bang(Lots of women, DO HO HO HO), and he has never really been afraid to trade leather with anyone, but he is also a smart fighter, he isn't like his brother who has a ground game but for some reason forgets that he has one. He likes to use it to his advantage, not to mention he has a gigantic list of subs he can pull of, I just don't think he will be able to sub Machida. I mean, his fights with Arona and Lil Nog are more than enough as testaments of how good his ground game is.

I just think these, I wouldn't even call them holes, because they're small than that, but these weak points in Machida's armor that I think Shogun will take advantage of. I think he will be able to get Machida to the ground and pound him to tko in the second round.

Honestly I have this fight 60/40, 60 in the favor of Machida. I wouldn't get all crazy if he won, but there's a very high chance he will, not to mention I'm a fellow Machida piss drinker. It's just that my love for Shogun is more than that of Machida, so I have to always back my favorite fighters in the good times and the bad times. I mean, Chuck is definitely a different fighter, and definitely not Machida, but pretty much everyone had Chuck winning that fight. But Shogun came through. Not to mention I wouldn't say it would be that big of an upset if he won. A lot of newer MMA fans combined with people who hated the nuthuggers of Shogun from 2+ years ago(Shogun nuthuggery was bad, like really bad, I almost don't blame the haters) I think are trying to write off Shogun as an easy, "W" for Machida, which I don't think will be the case.

But then again, Machida could also dominate this in devastating fashion.









In conclusion for everyone who is like TL;DR. I think Machida is amazing, but I think Shogun being superior in the clinch and on the ground mixed in with some good trip take downs will lead Shogun to a tko victory in the second round. I hug Shogun's nuts, and I drink Machida's piss. I just hug Shogun's nuts a little harder than I chug Machida's piss.

(EDITORS NOTE: There are probably lots of grammatical errors. If a sentence doesn't make sense, I'll be re-reading it and editing as you read this)


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

A few points I will make:

Shogun's ground game - It hasn't looked impressive since PRIDE. The times we have seen Shogun on the ground in the UFC he has not looked that good at all, in fact, he was submitted. Shogun still has a really good ground game, but Machida is a legit BJJ black belt who has good control from what we have seen and shows great sweeps. As a Machida fan and looking at it objectively, I am not worried about this fight on the ground.

Machida CAN finishing Shogun standing - Just because Shogun hasn't been knocked out doesn't mean he won't get knocked out, ESPECIALLY when you consider his style. Shogun leaves himself open more than others when attacking, and Machida counters WHILE he is being attacked, not before or after, that's what makes him such a dangerous counter-striker:




























This is what it looks like when you leave yourself open against a guy who has great timing, uses straight punches and kicks:










Shogun has a wild style, his face is normally open and presented when attacking, as such, Machida, having the great timing he has, will be able to exploit this.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Good points I just dont agree with the being susceptible for the sweeps and tosses as he will be moving away strategically the entire time.......

BUT....this is why they fight and I have it 70 - 30 in favor of Machida......just FTR.....


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## RAMPAGEFAN44 (May 13, 2008)

Page would whip him. Maybe


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

RAMPAGEFAN44 said:


> Page would whip him. Maybe


 
That was enlightening......Did you mean Shogun or Machida with that Epiphany???:confused02:


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> Learn some MMA........1st. Some people, are you referring to me, cuz i have been on the Machida wagon as long as anyone, and BTW, I am entitled to like him as a fighter he also studies the same disciplines I did....thank you!
> 
> 2nd. he wasnt boring to those who understand his style and he didnt "turn it up a bit" he continued to evolve.....there's a difference......
> 
> ...


1. Learn some MMA? I guess because i'm not a mod or a machida fan i'm clueless to MMA. Unless you predicted Machida to KO/TKO Shogun/rampage in the beginning of the fight then NO I wasn't referring to you.

2. He wasn't boring to those who understood his style? Well according to the Machida Fan Club his "machida karate" can't be penetrated or figured out by the worlds top LHWS for centuries to come.. So that leaves Machida, his dad, you , and 45 other people that understand his style and found his pre-thiago fights exciting.


3rd. Nothing is out of the possibility in MMA world. But people make predictions based on what they've seen already. If i predicted Brock to beat Mir by a peruvian necktie I wouldve been laughed at..but i shouldnt be becuase "anything is a possibility." 

4.Shogun has never been knocked out in any fights against all the strikers he has fought in the past 7 years. Rashad's most dangerous striker before Machida was old ass Liddell. I'm going to predict Shogun over Machida via KO in RD 1 because hey..its not out of the realm of possiblity.



And 200 posts and a join date of probably a year ago or so doesn't mean i'm new to MMA. I read the board for awhile before I decided the number of Brains to Dicks outweighed Sherdog. Not saying i'm an MMA elitist but I didn't start watching at UFC 85 or something http://www.mmaforum.com/light-heavyweight-division/35245-who-wins-tito-machida.html You been confident about Machida for a LOOOOOOOOONG time..lol. "tito in his last fight..dont see it happening"


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

Michael Carson said:


> A few things I'd like to say about this post:
> 
> 1. I completely agree that Shogun has the best chance to beat Machida along with Rashad.
> 
> ...


You just dogged Shogun for dodging every punch that a devastating striker like Chuck threw, then countered with a vicious body kick. Shogun isnt orthodox in anything his does. HIs striking, takedowns, and footwork are all unorthadox.

I think striking is being focused on too much for this fight. Shogun has excellent TD's and has the better ground game. This fight will be the toughest of Machida's career. Anyone who doesnt think so, is a Shogun hater.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

I don't think Shogun will be Machida's toughest test, I think Rashad was and will be again if they fight a second time, and I am not a Shogun hater. In fact, I've supported Shogun in every single fight he's been in other than this one. So, don't go around throwing lines like "Shogun hater".

Shogun's ground game is good, I don't think anyone questions that. With that said, Machida is a legit BJJ black belt, he has good control, good sweeps, and has a great clinch that Shogun will have to passed to even get it to the ground in the first place. Considering Shogun's wild striking, I could see him on his back more than Machida. Hell, even Liddell took Shogun down because of Shogun's wild striking that leaves him open for pretty much everything(as I've said many times, when Shogun attacks he leaves himself open for most strikes and takedowns).


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

What threat did Rashad pose to Machida other than a one punch KO though? 

Shogun brings so much to the table than just that. The kicks, the takedowns, the ground game, possibly the clinch, the diversity of his attacks, and the pace. He may not be better at Machida at some of those things, but he is nonetheless a threat wherever the fight goes outside of the striking.


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## Grizzly909 (Jul 20, 2009)

Idk about patience being the key cause rashad got mangled going in the ring with that plan. Hopefully shoguns just saying that so he can go out and bullrush. Way better plan. Imo


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Rashad is faster than Shogun, Rashad has better wrestling than Shogun, Rashad has more power than Shogun, Rashad has better timing than Shogun, Rashad has proven cardio, Rashad has a great camp.

Plenty of reasons why Rashad is a bigger threat than Shogun. The only thing Shogun has going for him over Rashad is his BJJ. The clinch as well.


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## phizeke (Apr 8, 2007)

This might end up like Thiago Silva vs. Lyoto Machidas all over again. With a quick TKO by The Dragon.


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## GodlyMoose (May 20, 2007)

Michael Carson said:


> Words and animated .gifs


I still want Shogun to win. :]


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Lol.

We all want someone to win, no worries.


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## phizeke (Apr 8, 2007)

I hope someone gets laid out on this one. I don't wanna see no measly decisions. Carnage Carnage! lol!


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

mwhite18 said:


> 1. Learn some MMA? I guess because i'm not a mod or a machida fan i'm clueless to MMA. Unless you predicted Machida to KO/TKO Shogun/rampage in the beginning of the fight then NO I wasn't referring to you.
> 
> 2.* He wasn't boring to those who understood his style? Well according to the Machida Fan Club his "machida karate" can't be penetrated or figured out by the worlds top LHWS for centuries to come.. So that leaves Machida, his dad, you , and 45 other people that understand his style and found his pre-thiago fights exciting.*
> 
> ...


 

*Lets get somthing straight......Being a "mod" has nothing to do with my opinions, it simply means I can delete dumb threads and merge double posts........got it????*:sarcastic12:

What does being a Machida fan have to do with knowing what your seeing???? It doesnt........Maybe you dont have a Black Belt in Shotokan Karate or Tae Kwon Do, like I do and and your just a phuckin idiot....thats a def possibility:thumbsup:

The highlighted paragraph is pure stupidity and actually helps prove my point as you are admitting you inability to recognize any skill in his earlier fights which i assure you was there......

Your third point in my opinion is valid....SEE I have the ability to agree with you as well.....

Your 4th point is pure hopes and dreams its not even an accurate assumption of how this fight is going to go.....In laymens terms so you can understand if 100 people were polled on Machida vs. Shogun there wouldnt be 10 that think Shogun is going to K/O Machida in the 1st.......neither their style of fighting indicates the fight would go this way, they are much more likely to feel each other out and the fight could go to a decision, but I doubt that highly......

You do realize you just picked a guy that averages getting hit once every two and a half round and has never lost a round in the UFC to get K/O'd in the 1st by a guy that is 2-1 in the UFC.......

And you have the nerve to suggest when I say learn MMA it comes from me being a mod or a machida fan.....

Have you ever trainned a Martial Art?:confused02: Cuz thats where my knowledge comes from........:thumbsup:


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

> “I take it as a great thing. *I always wanted to train for five rounds*.”


this somewhat scares me.


however as ive said numrerous times before i think chute boxe presents the worst possible matchup to beat Machida. If Shogun could stay patient... sure hell have a shot, but i dont see a chute boxer staying patient for 5 rounds.Also Shoguns stanse lets him get kicked alot by Lyoto. 

I hate this fight either way tho, im a bigger fan of Lyoto but Wand and Shogun were my heroes back in the day.


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> *Lets get somthing straight......Being a "mod" has nothing to do with my opinions, it simply means I can delete dumb threads and merge double posts........got it????*:sarcastic12:
> 
> What does being a Machida fan have to do with knowing what your seeing???? It doesnt........Maybe you dont have a Black Belt in Shotokan Karate or Tae Kwon Do, like I do and and your just a phuckin idiot....thats a def possibility:thumbsup:
> 
> ...



Look at you getting your panties in a bunch again resorting to name calling like a true E-toughguy. I'm going to pick Shogun to win but my mind tells me Machida will win at this point. The reason i said Shogun would win via KO in RD1 was sarcasm because I used your "its not out of the realm of possibility" formula. 
Their styles of fighting say they will feel eachother out? Hmm..look how many people Shogun Tko'ed in first round. This isn't lay n pray matt hughes we're talking about.

I dont have to train MMA to see Shogun has never been Ko'ed and Machida is a decision fighter. If you win more than half your fights by decision thats what you are. So me thinking "machida Koing shogun rd2" is absurd is not crazy.

You act like your opinions are so above everyone else because you train . If you knew so much about Machidas style and how its so great because "he only hit twice a round" then you wouldnt have said in the link I posted "titos last fight in UFC...nooo way he's losing". Close to 4000 posts..i bet you are at the gym like a slave.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

mwhite18 said:


> Look at you getting your panties in a bunch again resorting to name calling like a true E-toughguy. I'm going to pick Shogun to win but my mind tells me Machida will win at this point. The reason i said Shogun would win via KO in RD1 was sarcasm because I used your "its not out of the realm of possibility" formula.
> Their styles of fighting say they will feel eachother out? Hmm..look how many people Shogun Tko'ed in first round. This isn't lay n pray matt hughes we're talking about.
> 
> I dont have to train MMA to see Shogun has never been Ko'ed and Machida is a decision fighter. If you win more than half your fights by decision thats what you are. So me thinking "machida Koing shogun rd2" is absurd is not crazy.
> ...


Quit that disrespect right now.


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## brucelee23 (Mar 4, 2009)

All i have to say on this one is that an ex ufc champ in tito ortiz couldnt solve the riddle, an unbeaten thiago silva and an unbeaten rashad evans never came close to even begin, sokodjou, nakamora and heath went in to get schooled ... and thats just the ufc fighters. If shogun who got dominated in his ufc debut by griffin thinks he has the answers, good luck, because patience is a very dangerous masterplan to have against machida. I see lyoto ko'ing shogun, the same way he did rashad !! No one in the ufc lhw division at this present point in time has the capability to take out a master like machida !! Every fight he has as the champ, he will come better prepared and better mentally focused !! Mark these words !!


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

mwhite18 said:


> Look at you getting your panties in a bunch again resorting to name calling like a true E-toughguy. I'm going to pick Shogun to win but my mind tells me Machida will win at this point. The reason i said Shogun would win via KO in RD1 was sarcasm because I used your "its not out of the realm of possibility" formula.
> Their styles of fighting say they will feel eachother out? *Hmm..look how many people Shogun Tko'ed in first round*. This isn't lay n pray matt hughes we're talking about.
> 
> I dont have to train MMA to see Shogun has never been Ko'ed and Machida is a decision fighter. If you win more than half your fights by decision thats what you are. So me thinking "machida Koing shogun rd2" is absurd is not crazy.
> ...


You fail to realize as i posted earlier I stopped wearing panties 2 yrs ago you talk about them so much i think you wanna get in them......:thumbsdown: 
Guess you missed that the first time I responded to you saying it......

What are you like a 12 yr old kid that takes everything personal and doesnt comprehend what he reads????

See above where you wrote "he only hit twice a round"....you meant to referrence what i posted which is he averages gettin hit ONCE every TWO and a HALF rounds........seeing that you cannot even comprehend what i am typing im not sure why i keep going with this......


I do not think I am high and mighty, rather just able to recognize when someone lacks knowledge in terms of fighting.......plus able to recognize what i have been trainned in, but a sec ago its cuz Im a MOD....(gay argument)


However many people shogun has k/o'd in the first has nothing to do with Machida.......

I work out more strenght training now as I was in a bad car wreck about a yr and a half ago. i run 3.5 miles 3 times a week and on the other days Im in the GYM......even though i am approaching 4000 post i get my work done in the office and my relief is in the GYM......

FTR.....I still spar on the regular and happened to need to rely on my skills when I was jumped at a gas station(which im sure brings a smile to your face).......There was one guy who approached me when I told him to back off and he didnt he went to sleep.....only for me to get tackled by his boy I didnt even know was there......

I managed to clinch with him land some knees and then we went to the ground where i actually choked him out......


AND I still have time to answer these meaningless posts......:thumb02:


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> You fail to realize as i posted earlier I stopped wearing panties 2 yrs ago you talk about them so much i think you wanna get in them......:thumbsdown:
> Guess you missed that the first time I responded to you saying it......
> 
> What are you like a 12 yr old kid that takes everything personal and doesnt comprehend what he reads????
> ...



12 yr old kid who takes everything personal would be you. This is at least the second or third thread where you are the first one to start with your "you're a ******* idiot retard wah wah" because I dont agree with everything you say.

My reading comprehension is fine..wow i wrote machidas stat wrong ..it was just a quick generalization of what you were talking about.


However many people Machida beat , how fast he beat rashad or thiago has nothing to do with Shogun then.


And as far as you gettin jumped or whatever..I dont wish violence or chuckle just because we see differently on an MMA board.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

mwhite18 said:


> 12 yr old kid who takes everything personal would be you. This is at least the second or third thread where you are the first one to start with your "you're a ******* idiot retard wah wah" because I dont agree with everything you say.
> 
> My reading comprehension is fine..wow i wrote machidas stat wrong ..it was just a quick generalization of what you were talking about.
> 
> ...


 
Your better than me Im wrong your right....!!!!:thumbsup: The panties in a bunch thing will usually get you a name calling.......Someone that doesnt agree with what i say isnt a retard or an idiot, someone that continues to argue the same point over and over again is......

I am content to let you have your belief and i have mine........I am prepared to debate you all day but the panties in a bunch and the other wise shit will only get you the same in return, SO........Im just gonna agree to disagree


The referrencing of something I posted that you didnt understand was done to illustrate that some of what Im trying to prove may be going over your head......

Someone that has no formal trainning can know a ton about mma but some questions people ask let you know they dont.......food for thought...........


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

swpthleg said:


> Quit that disrespect right now.


tell that to your buddy


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

mwhite18 said:


> tell that to your buddy


 
Did you read my post above??????


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## brucelee23 (Mar 4, 2009)

get a room you two .. this is mma talk not a singles bar !!


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

brucelee23 said:


> get a room you two .. this is mma talk not a singles bar !!


 
Its done dude.....but on a completely lighter note......

Welcome to the forum as you can see debates can get deep here but typically you can count on good feedback, excellent posts and all the MMA info you need.....

If you ever need any help hit up the staff and enjoy your time here as its easy to get lost in all these wonderful threads.......:thumb02:


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Let's get a room, CC.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Can I watch?


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

This fight is going 5 rounds.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

swpthleg said:


> Can I watch?


Can't you see the "no girls allowed" sign on the door?


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Michael Carson said:


> Let's get a room, CC.


 

Im down....




swpthleg said:


> Can I watch?


 
I was under the assumption that went without asking!!!!! hehehe:thumb02:



mwhite18 said:


> And 200 posts and a join date of probably a year ago or so doesn't mean i'm new to MMA. I read the board for awhile before I decided the number of Brains to Dicks outweighed Sherdog. Not saying i'm an MMA elitist but I didn't start watching at UFC 85 or something http://www.mmaforum.com/light-heavyweight-division/35245-who-wins-tito-machida.html You been confident about Machida for a LOOOOOOOOONG time..lol. "tito in his last fight..dont see it happening"


 
LOL....I stated in the thread i didnt vbookie bet but i instead bet real money on my boy and won........


At the time of that fight.....Tito needed to leave with a win, I would have bet my boy but i believe at the time my credits were not exactly abundant.....:dunno:


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## mwhite18 (Feb 3, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> Im down....
> 
> 
> 
> ...












I'm not referring to your vbookie or bodog bets. I was referring to you picking tito to win in that thread. Just saying, don't want to "bait" you :thumb02:


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

OMG........Can this die now?

What is this "no girls allowed" crap? FFS!


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## Full Nelson (Apr 12, 2009)

Shogun via fish hook. 2nd round.


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## DahStoryTella (Jul 11, 2009)

should be a tactical and non-fan-friendly fight lol


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

mwhite18 said:


> *I'm not referring to your vbookie or bodog bets. I was referring to you picking tito to win in that thread. Just saying, don't want to "bait" you* :thumb02:


 
*So why post this if your not trying to bait me?*.......answer.....you are....read below....


Good then in that case and considering your so far up my butt you can take the time to lok at the (out of control by now) Brock Lesner / frank Mir Pre/Post Fight thread where on the whole thread you will se me picking Mir and telling everyone why Mir will win......... here look http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/57974-official-brock-lesnar-vs-frank-mir-pre-post-fight-4.html

Now funny enough if you go on to read that thread I still pick Mir and after the fight someone tried to call me out like you are right now, and funnily enough you know this person.....you neg repped them yesterday and left my name not realizing you would be found out......Alex De_Large, who loves Brock was quick to get on me for giving Brock his credit.....when i had touted Mir......You see Im always gnna lead to the Martial Artist over a wrester just personal preference and what I've trainned.....

He did basically did what your doing with out going to the extent you are, he called me out and said somthing along the lines of LOL you picked Mir.......

Well sure I did on the thread......BUT http://www.mmaforum.com/vbookie.php?do=bets

3rd one down from the top......

You see mwhite18 this is being this is a place where you can discuss things my heart ws with Mir the whole time......along with Bisping as Im from the UK originally, BUT I bet with my wallet not my heart......so just because a post says somthing doesnt mean thats which way Im going to end up going when I pick a winner.....

Like I previously posted I didnt have credits to bet then or it would have been on Machida......


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## crispsteez (Jul 1, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> *So why post this if your not trying to bait me?*.......answer.....you are....read below....
> 
> 
> Good then in that case and considering your so far up my butt you can take the time to lok at the (out of control by now) Brock Lesner / frank Mir Pre/Post Fight thread where on the whole thread you will se me picking Mir and telling everyone why Mir will win......... here look http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/57974-official-brock-lesnar-vs-frank-mir-pre-post-fight-4.html
> ...


coldcall, you don't need to say anything else. he lost all his credibility and cool points with that one.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

Ok, you both agree to disagree. This argument is over between the two of you Capiche?


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

I have made my point and have nothing else to discuss with you mwhite18........enjoy your time on the forum brother......:thumbsup:


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## brucelee23 (Mar 4, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> Its done dude.....but on a completely lighter note......
> 
> Welcome to the forum as you can see debates can get deep here but typically you can count on good feedback, excellent posts and all the MMA info you need.....
> 
> If you ever need any help hit up the staff and enjoy your time here as its easy to get lost in all these wonderful threads.......:thumb02:


thanks dude !!


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