# wrestling must be limited



## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

If you get a takedown and dont do anything significant in 30secs i say stand the damn fight back up. lots of these fighters are just abusing the system and its pathetic.

the koscheck fight tonight was pure garbage. :thumbsdown:


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## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

Maybe if Daley had a decent ground game or could stop a takedown you would be thinking otherwise........


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## AK-Bronco (Feb 25, 2008)

Then thirty seconds if the action doesn't progress as desired they should throw them knifes? 

I bet you love arena football, they don't have that pesky running game.


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

JimmyJames said:


> Maybe if Daley had a decent ground game or could stop a takedown you would be thinking otherwise........


Very valid point, but when the ref threatens standing fighters up when one has back-mount something is wrong, even if it is Miragliotta.


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

i agree, but it would be hard to change the rules without nullifying wrestling in anyway.


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## Choke_Wire (Aug 9, 2006)

in b ball u have shot clock


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

vilify said:


> If you get a takedown and dont do anything significant in 30secs i say stand the damn fight back up. lots of these fighters are just abusing the system and its pathetic.
> 
> the koscheck fight tonight was pure garbage. :thumbsdown:


Daley fought like a complete idoit. Everyone know how good Kos wrestling is and yet Daley pretty much gave him his front leg with the stance he had. Overally, Daley was a douche, Koscheck was a bigger douche and GSP has motivation to knock KOS the **** out.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

yeah but b ball sucks


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

AK-Bronco said:


> Then thirty seconds if the action doesn't progress as desired they should throw them knifes?
> 
> I bet you love arena football, they don't have that pesky running game.


I love all aspects of MMA except the part when you can literally take someone down, sit on them for 5 mins, inflict zero damage and manage to win.

if you cant hold and hug your opponent for 5 mins while standing, why should you be able to do it on the ground? its BS.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

It's a tough call. It's why you need more refs like Herb Dean who can tell when a fighter is attempting to work and when one isn't. Standing up from back mount is reatarded but i agree that once or twice in the fight tonight Kos wasn't doing enough and they should have been reset


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Takedown Defense !!!
Is it that hard ?!?!


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

AK-Bronco said:


> Then thirty seconds if the action doesn't progress as desired they should throw them knifes?
> 
> I bet you love arena football, they don't have that pesky running game.


its a combat sport, not a hugging match...


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## xgarrettxvx (Jan 2, 2010)

decent enough ground game to keep an accomplish douchebag wrestler back in half guard, or at least not let him finish. Wish herb "stand 'em up" dean was in there.


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## AK-Bronco (Feb 25, 2008)

vilify said:


> I love all aspects of MMA except the part when you can literally take someone down, sit on them for 5 mins, inflict zero damage and manage to win.
> 
> if you cant hold and hug your opponent for 5 mins while standing, why should you be able to do it on the ground? its BS.


I know Kos is not the most likable fighter's, but I remember quite a few submission attempts. 

When the Ref threatened to stand the fight up when Kos had his back it a hook in, I was truly scared for the sport.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

What, that is ludicrous, If the striker doesn't swing for 5 seconds should he have to lie on his back?


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## ESPADA9 (Oct 13, 2006)

vilify said:


> I love all aspects of MMA except the part when you can literally take someone down, sit on them for 5 mins, inflict zero damage and manage to win.
> 
> if you cant hold and hug your opponent for 5 mins while standing, why should you be able to do it on the ground? its BS.


While I think Kos has some of the best double leg take downs in MMA he isn’t exactly known for doing much once he lands in someone’s guard.

On the other hand Daly didn’t exactly throw up any submissions to mention, the combination of the two makes for a very dull fight.

If they stood the fight up multiple times Daly would have just been taken down more times, the end would have been the same.

If you want to be an MMA star you better work on your wrestling and TDD.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Yeah I agree. Koscheck basically layed there and did nothing for 4 straight minutes in the same half guard position without transitioning or doing any damage at one point. It's a disgrace to the sport. Bring back the yellow card ffs.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

there was nothing wrong with the kos fight.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

HexRei said:


> there was nothing wrong with the kos fight.


I agree. It makes the UFC more marketable IMO.

After years of research, medical scholars have finally found a permanent cure for insomnia.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Okay Pride FC...


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Insert generic "If you don't want to see wrestlers wrestle watch K-1" comment.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Or I could just watch Japanese MMA, where the wresters are forced to actually do stuff. And that wasn't wrestling. That was a man-**** simulation course.

EDIT: What's with this awful logic anyway? If you don't appreciate Koscheck's imitation of a wet blanket you shouldn't watch MMA. Yeah ok...just because I don't like watching the long lost cousins of the carebears doesn't make me any less of a fan.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

TLC said:


> just because I don't like watching the long lost cousins of the carebears doesn't make me any less of a fan.


you lost me there.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

I agree.

Wrestlers abuse the sistem trying to take wins by points.
Finishing the fight is secondary to them and that makes me disgusted. 
I mean, why do most people give points away just because a guy is standing on top of the other even if doing virtually nothing else? Is that really what you call dominance?
That gets no credit in my book and refs should stop that stupidity.
Don´t agree on the 30 sec, 1 minute would more appropriate.



vilify said:


> if you cant hold and hug your opponent for 5 mins while standing, why should you be able to do it on the ground? its BS.


You can if your last name is Couture.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> What, that is ludicrous, If the striker doesn't swing for 5 seconds should he have to lie on his back?


Couldn't have said it better.

raise01:


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Woodenhead said:


> Couldn't have said it better.
> 
> raise01:


You could if you can tell the diferençe between 5 seconds and 5 minutes = 300 seconds.

This is mma, not wrestling.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

AmdM said:


> You could if you can tell the diferençe between 5 seconds and 5 minutes = 300 seconds.
> 
> This is mma, not wrestling.


Ground work takes time its a marathon, Striking is a sprint. Your trying to say apples should taste the same as oranges. 5 seconds of fighters circling is boring why don't we hold it to the same equivolent?


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

HexRei said:


> you lost me there.


Care bears hug...Koscheck hugs...:dunno:



AmdM said:


> I agree.
> 
> Wrestlers abuse the sistem trying to take wins by points.
> Finishing the fight is secondary to them and that makes me disgusted.
> ...


It's BS, really. I'm not saying stand them up on first opportunity, but if you have not moved from a position and not done anything for 4 straight minutes, you should be stood up. The fight is only 15 minutes for god's sake, watching 12 minutes of that BS is disgusting and destructive to the sport.

Collegiate wrestling isn't even as boring as what just took place, it's really not that bad, I've watched a couple matches. What took place in the cage tonight wasn't wrestling though.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

AmdM said:


> You could if you can tell the diferençe between 5 seconds and 5 minutes = 300 seconds.
> 
> This is mma, not wrestling.


you're right, that's why there is no instant victory when an opponent is pinned. the guy on the bottom still has their opportunity to attack, sweep, or even submit.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Ground work takes time its a marathon, Striking is a sprint. Your trying to say apples should taste the same as oranges. 5 seconds of fighters circling is boring why don't we hold it to the same equivolent?


Yes, take your time, but don´t let the wrestler do nothing for 5 minutes.
Im not saying 5 seconds of wrestling is boring.

As for the fruit talk, you beat me at that, i just can´t see how apples taste the same as oranges!



Toxic said:


> Insert generic "If you don't want to see wrestlers wrestle watch K-1" comment.


Insert generic "If you want to see wrestlers wrestle watch a wrestling match" comment.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

TLC said:


> Care bears hug...Koscheck hugs...:dunno:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Koschek is a fraggle get you early late 80's childrens show comparisons straight.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

AmdM said:


> Yes, take your time, but don´t let the wrestler do nothing for 5 minutes.
> Im not saying 5 seconds of wrestling is boring.
> 
> As for the fruit talk, you beat me at that, i just can´t see how apples taste the same as oranges!
> ...


I think honestly people still feel this need to unconditionally defend the sport that they can't even see its flaws. This fight was everything that's wrong with MMA, and it was pathetic how Koscheck made half-assed attempts at finishing a completely overmatched opponent. This was no different than what Silva did in Abu Dhabi, minus the taunting.


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## DrunkInsomniac (May 6, 2010)

I like the old pride days were there was little to no stand-up, to take it a step further, I say no stand-ups at all. Its a sport, not entertainment, go watch WWE or something if you actually think there should be a 30 second rule.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

HexRei said:


> you're right, that's why there is no instant victory when an opponent is pinned. the guy on the bottom still has their opportunity to attack, sweep, or even submit.


Of course, it much better when the guy on the botton can do something.

But on the other hand, if the guy on top, is that good that he can just impose his will and lay on top of the other guy doing nothing for 5 minutes, will we let him do it?

To me this is the most bizarre defect in the sport and i wish the folks with power do something about it!


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

DrunkInsomniac said:


> *I like the old pride days were there was little to no stand-up,* to take it a step further, *I say no stand-ups at all.* Its a sport, not entertainment, go watch WWE or something if you actually think there should be a 30 second rule.


Except that isn't true, and they had the card system anyway to stop Josh Koscheck's. 

And lol.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

It's called MIXED Martial Arts for a reason. Don't like getting laid on and punched to a decision? Learn how to defend a damn take down or how to land subs off your back. It's not Koscheck's fault that Daley has crap TDD and even worse grappling off his back. It was an obvious weakness and Kos exploited it to perfection. If you want people to stand and trade constantly there IS K-1 or Boxing. MMA fans are fans of the game, not just striking. All of it.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

It wasnt the most exciting fight ever, but it wasnt like watching a Matt Hughes fight either. The whole thing was farly GSP esque. Koscheck tried to work for submissions, took mount a few times as well and was trying to GNP Daley (to Daley's credit, the dude did a much better job off his back then I thought he would). Im happy that Kos won, if Daley were the dude to face GSP, then we would be in for a five round version of this fight featuring GSP and Daley. GSP and Kos wont be afraid to stand and trade with each other. That is gonna be a much more exciting fight then seeing Daley on his back for five rounds. Just my take anyhow.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

TraMaI said:


> It's called MIXED Martial Arts for a reason. Don't like getting laid on and *punched *to a decision?


But i´ve failed to see all that punching in Kos game tonight. 
As someone said, i just saw a humam blanket.
You gotta understand, if he was doing that punching you are talking about, i wouldn´t be here complaining about it.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

TraMaI said:


> It's called MIXED Martial Arts for a reason. Don't like getting laid on and punched to a decision? Learn how to defend a damn take down or how to land subs off your back. It's not Koscheck's fault that Daley has crap TDD and even worse grappling off his back. It was an obvious weakness and Kos exploited it to perfection. If you want people to stand and trade constantly there IS K-1 or Boxing. MMA fans are fans of the game, not just striking. All of it.


I'm not a fighter though, I'm a consumer of a product that's deteriorating immensely. I keep seeing more and more of the lay and pray bullshit each event I watch. It's really looking bad for the sport.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

AmdM said:


> Of course, it much better when the guy on the botton can do something.
> 
> But on the other hand,* if the guy on top, is that good that he can just impose his will* and lay on top of the other guy doing nothing for 5 minutes, will we let him do it?
> 
> To me this is the most bizarre defect in the sport and i wish the folks with power do something about it!


I highlighted the problem, if he is so good that he is imposing his will he is obviously doing something isn't he? I mean if Kos wasn't doing anything all and Daley tried all those him escapes he should have just gotten up shouldn't he have? What Kos does takes just as much skill as anything Daley has done in his career, it may not be your cup of tea but you can hardly say he did nothing because that is horribly inaccurate.


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## lvkyle (Sep 7, 2008)

Koscheck Gassed his arms out in the first round with the SUB attempt.

Thats the only reason this fight went 3 rounds. As good as Kos is, he is still learning.

If kos would have softened him up on the ground for another round, he probably would of sunk in the choke and finished him.

I think after daley got out of the first sub which was very close to being finished kos has to reley more on leg and body strength to control the fight.

IMO if these guys fought again, kos would finish with strikes or SUB on the ground.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Toxic said:


> I highlighted the problem, if he is so good that he is imposing his will he is obviously doing something isn't he? I mean if Kos wasn't doing anything all and Daley tried all those him escapes he should have just gotten up shouldn't he have? What Kos does takes just as much skill as anything Daley has done in his career, it may not be your cup of tea but you can hardly say he did nothing because that is horribly inaccurate.


I just don´t think that´s enough in mma, perhaps in wrestling that would be enough, but not in mma.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> I highlighted the problem, if he is so good that he is imposing his will he is obviously doing something isn't he? I mean if Kos wasn't doing anything all and Daley tried all those him escapes he should have just gotten up shouldn't he have? What Kos does takes just as much skill as anything Daley has done in his career, it may not be your cup of tea but you can hardly say he did nothing because that is horribly inaccurate.


Yet this doesn't apply to Silva in the Leitres and Maia fights. Interesting.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

AmdM said:


> I just don´t think that´s enough in mma, perhaps in wrestling that would be enough, but not in mma.


So Daley just striking is enough but not Kos just wrestling? Kind of hypocritical isn't it?



TLC said:


> Yet this doesn't apply to Silva in the Leitres and Maia fights. Interesting.


Silva actually did nothing in the 5th around against Maia, the ref had to warn him, he wasn't controlling Maia he was literally back peddling and doing nothing. What Leites did in his fight against Anderson took no skills, anybody can backflop, had he gotten a hold of Anderson that might be something. Anderson imposed his will on Maia and Leites its why he won both fights. Kos never ran away from Daley. The better question is in the 5th round should the ref have made Anderson Silva lay down and let Maia get an advantageous position?


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Toxic said:


> So Daley just striking is enough but not Kos just wrestling? Kind of hypocritical isn't it?


Im not saying ban wrestlers, but is that all you are gonna get in a mma fight?
Besides wrestlers can do much more and better than that, so i think he wasn´t doing enough.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> So Daley just striking is enough but not Kos just wrestling? Kind of hypocritical isn't it?


Fail logic. Daley just striking KOs people and finishes the fight. Koscheck laying on people accomplishes nothing. How would Koscheck have won if this was UFC 1? He wouldn't have, because laying on someone doesn't win a fight.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

AmdM said:


> Im not saying ban wrestlers, but is that all you are gonna get in a mma fight?
> Besides wrestlers can do much more and better than that.


And strikers can do much more than that as well, See Chuck Liddell, he never had that problem because he learnt to deal with wrestlers. Don't blame Kos that Daley didn't.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> So Daley just striking is enough but not Kos just wrestling? Kind of hypocritical isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> Silva actually did nothing in the 5th around against Maia, the ref had to warn him, he wasn't controlling Maia he was literally back peddling and doing nothing. What Leites did in his fight against Anderson took no skills, anybody can backflop, had he gotten a hold of Anderson that might be something. Anderson imposed his will on Maia and Leites its why he won both fights. Kos never ran away from Daley. The better question is in the 5th round should the ref have made Anderson Silva lay down and let Maia get an advantageous position?


Wrong, he was avoiding his strikes and outlanded him in the 5th. And why would Maia get an advantageous position? Stand ups reset the fight to neutral position, not an advantageous one.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

TLC said:


> Fail logic. Daley just striking KOs people and finishes the fight. Koscheck laying on people accomplishes nothing. How would Koscheck have won if this was UFC 1? He wouldn't have, because laying on someone doesn't win a fight.


That´s a pretty solid argument right there!


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

TLC said:


> Fail logic. Daley just striking KOs people and finishes the fight. Koscheck laying on people accomplishes nothing. How would Koscheck have won if this was UFC 1? He wouldn't have, because laying on someone doesn't win a fight.


probably with headbutts, or knees to the head on the ground. two big tools that were available to strong wrestlers back then and no longer are.


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

TLC said:


> *I think honestly people still feel this need to unconditionally defend the sport that they can't even see its flaws.* This fight was everything that's wrong with MMA, and it was pathetic how Koscheck made half-assed attempts at finishing a completely overmatched opponent. This was no different than what Silva did in Abu Dhabi, minus the taunting.


i love MMA, but even I can get disgusted with it and how some fighters exploit loop holes within the rules. i'll defend it as a sport anyday, but on a forum where the topics are all about mma, you gotta look at each fight without the rose colored glasses.

yes, koschek fought a good fight but to be honest it was just another wrestling taking advantage of the scoring system. paul daley took hardly any, if no damage at all in the whole fight. kos even admitted to just holding and talking crap to him in his ear for the last minute (thats why out of fustration, daley hooked him after the bell).



> Silva actually did nothing in the 5th around against Maia, the ref had to warn him, he wasn't controlling Maia he was literally back peddling and doing nothing. What Leites did in his fight against Anderson took no skills, anybody can backflop, had he gotten a hold of Anderson that might be something. Anderson imposed his will on Maia and Leites its why he won both fights. Kos never ran away from Daley. The better question is in the 5th round should the ref have made *Anderson Silva lay down and let Maia get an advantageous position?*


seriously? dont be stupid...


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

TLC said:


> Wrong, he was avoiding his strikes and outlanded him in the 5th. And why would Maia get an advantageous position? *Stand ups reset the fight to neutral position, not an advantageous one*.


Bullshit, everyone knew going into the fight that while it was on the feet the advantage was Daley's. Same with Maia/Silva the stand up clearly favored one fighter.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

HexRei said:


> probably with headbutts, or knees to the head on the ground. two big tools that were available to strong wrestlers back then and no longer are.


He didn't even have Daley in a position to knee him in the head. He spent the whole damn fight in guard. Also doubt he'd headbutt ko, headbutts are self-inflicting and Daley could've headbutted him back.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

No way. Wrestling requires technique, as does controlling a guy on the ground whilst remaining active. If guys like Paul Daley can't defend a takedown, then it's their problem, and shouldn't be let off by the referee and be allowed to stand up after 30 seconds.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

TLC said:


> Fail logic. Daley just striking KOs people and finishes the fight. Koscheck laying on people accomplishes nothing. How would Koscheck have won if this was UFC 1? He wouldn't have, because laying on someone doesn't win a fight.


Really? Dan Severn made it to the finals only losing to Royce Gracie at UFC 4 despite having no skills outside wrestling.


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Bullshit, everyone knew going into the fight that while it was on the feet the advantage was Daley's. Same with Maia/Silva the stand up clearly favored one fighter.


yea but the stand up is where every fight begins.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Bullshit, everyone knew going into the fight that while it was on the feet the advantage was Daley's. Same with Maia/Silva the stand up clearly favored one fighter.


Not really, it's the starting position of the match, therefore it's neutral. Why would the fight start with a dude laying on top of the other? And since MMA scoring scores top control so damn hard, it'd be ridiculous to hand a fighter an advantageous position for stalling. Does Daleu score points for standing with Koscheck?


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Really? Dan Severn made it to the finals only losing to Royce Gracie at UFC 4 despite having no skills outside wrestling.


Come on, Dan Severn went to the finals (and won a couple of tournments) by punishing people, by beating the crap out of them, he just used wrestling to set it up.

So diferent that what you saw today.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

chilo said:


> yea but the stand up is where every fight begins.


And Kos showed his skills by taking Daley down and completly neutralizing Daley's skills. Kos's skill > Daley's skill. Isn't that what the sport is supposed to be?



AmdM said:


> Come on, Dan Severn went to the finals (and won a couple of tournments) by punishing people, by beating the crap out of them, he just used wrestling to set it up.
> 
> So diferent that what you saw today.


UFC 4 was not that different actually. It wasn't till Severn lost to Royce that he took time off and learnt how to do some damage for his return at UFC 5.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Really? Dan Severn made it to the finals only losing to Royce Gracie at UFC 4 despite having no skills outside wrestling.


By choking them. What does that have to do with the human fire blankets?


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> UFC 4 was not that different actually. It wasn't till Severn lost to Royce that he took time off and learnt how to do some damage for his return at UFC 5.


Right, so when he fought someone with skill, he ended up losing because all he did was wrestle and couldn't do damage? Sweet, I love when people negate their own arguments.

Funny enough, Severn wouldve won under the current MMA system.


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## AlexZ (Sep 14, 2007)

Can't wait for GSP v. Kos, the battle of the best 170 lb. blanket!!!

On a serious note, it would be interesting to see how they neutralize eachother and if they actually stand and bang!!!


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

TLC said:


> He didn't even have Daley in a position to knee him in the head. He spent the whole damn fight in guard. Also doubt he'd headbutt ko, headbutts are self-inflicting and Daley could've headbutted him back.


coleman used headbutts plenty in early UFC's. he went on record saying he felt like it was a hit to his game when they were outlawed.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

TLC said:


> Fail logic. Daley just striking KOs people and finishes the fight. Koscheck laying on people accomplishes nothing. How would Koscheck have won if this was UFC 1? He wouldn't have, because laying on someone doesn't win a fight.


It does actually, pretty sure Kos just won that fight....and this isn't UFC 1, isn't that the point of the sport evolving.....


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Life B Ez said:


> isn't that the point of the sport evolving.....


It will evolve (i hope) in order for these human blankets and cage pushers not to get wins for doing nothing!


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

HexRei said:


> coleman used headbutts plenty in early UFC's. he went on record saying he felt like it was a hit to his game when they were outlawed.


And never stopped anyone with them. Not that he needed them, Coleman was a legit wrestler who would actually hit guys. The funny thing about this wave of blankets, there is not that many in comparison to guys who actually look to finish, but they all just happen to be WWs and in the top 5..


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

AmdM said:


> It will evolve (i hope) in order for these human blankets and cage pushers not to get wins for doing nothing!


I'm so sick of people hating on guys when they win fights, everyone said Kos had to take Daley down, then when he does everyone shreds him for it, because it's "boring" like wtf? The guy can't win.....

And if you think Fitch, GSP and Kos are boring, I have three words for you, Motor City Madness, look it up kids.


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## Icculus (Oct 4, 2009)

edlavis88 said:


> It's a tough call. It's why you need more refs like Herb Dean who can tell when a fighter is attempting to work and when one isn't. Standing up from back mount is reatarded but i agree that once or twice in the fight tonight Kos wasn't doing enough and they should have been reset


With better reffing there would be no problem. If Mirgliotta wasnt an idiot he would have told josh that he has to work more if he wanted to keep his position at a few points during the fight. Maybe their would have been a stand up or two. Still, I dont think it would have changed the fight.

Mirgliota is the dumbest ref ever. Someone needs to put up a highlight reel of his idiotic calls throughout the years.


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## mtt_c (Jun 15, 2008)

If Kos had made it a boxing match, and had lost...what then? he's a wrestler trying to get better at MMA...just like Daley is a boxer trying to get better.


No way in hell this fight should have happened. Kos has been disrespected for too long. I think Dana needed him to dispatch A.Johnson and P.Daley (both great standup guys) so that PPV buyers would give him a shot against GSP.

BTW, when Daley fought Shields, everyone knew then that Daley is just a boxer.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

Will point out that my opinion here is not influenced at all by the Daley/Kos fight, although this is another example to a list of fights I have felt this way about for a while and commented on before in other thread in the past largely pointing the finger at GSP, not to attack GSP but as an example.

I agree with the opening post, there needs to be some kind of limitation on taking an opponent down and been unable to cause damage in a timely fashion, its not as if the fights can last all day and too much of the 5 min rounds can be wasted on the ground with one fighter simply holding a dominant position without inflicting damage or looking to finish the fight.

I too would like to see fights that go to the ground be stood back up by the ref in these kind of "Lay and Pray" situations, this is in no way an attack nor have I ever attacked the fighters that use these tactics, the are simply working within the rules to win, but I would like to see the rules changed, sure if you are active on the ground and looking to finish like say Bones Jones is a good example, fighters who fight like Jones who fight with intent to finish on the ground and very waste little time should by all means continue, in fact its this aggressive ground style that the rules should force fighters to work when taking a fight to the ground.

I hope they change the rules one day on this one, I believe it would make for better quality fights, the argument that it takes time to work position and wait for an opportunity to take an arm or leg or what ever does not cut with me, not when you are fighting within a time limit.

Now fighters are seeing how successful GSP is been with it, others are starting to follow that example and pretty soon we risk getting to the point where every fight consists of a take down and then one guy pinning another to the floor for 5 mins, at which point I will go back to watching Boxing and K-1 over MMA.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

gsp was far from inactive on the ground in his fight with hardy. he came very close to submitting hardy twice and landed over a hundred strikes while on top.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> d pretty soon we risk getting to the point where every fight consists of a take down and then one guy pinning another to the floor for 5 mins, at which point I will go back to watching Boxing and K-1 over MMA.


Not really since people can just learn how to defend takedowns. I don't understand why you think you can't watch K1 or boxing if you watch MMA. You don't have to choose one combat sport I watch every K1 show that airs and a ton of MMA with a boxing fight thrown in every now and then. You can just download or DVR all the K1 events and skip all the filler and see an entire show in like an hour and a half.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

HexRei said:


> gsp was far from inactive on the ground in his fight with hardy. he came very close to submitting hardy twice and landed over a hundred strikes while on top.


there is a difference between tapping your opponent up on the ground and looking to finish the fight, imo he make 2 attempts to finish in 25 mins of been on the ground, that to me does not warrant looking to finish in a timely fashion, there where many occasions in that fight where I felt the fight should of been stood up, not that it would of stopped GSP from just instantly taking him down again, so I guess the ref standing up the fights will not always create more action alone, I for one would like to see a more restricted ground fighting style that forces faster aggression and a card system to prevent the cycle of lay and pray to continue.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

osmium said:


> Not really since people can just learn how to defend takedowns. I don't understand why you think you can't watch K1 or boxing if you watch MMA. You don't have to choose one combat sport I watch every K1 show that airs and a ton of MMA with a boxing fight thrown in every now and then. You can just download or DVR all the K1 events and skip all the filler and see an entire show in like an hour and a half.


I dont choose, I watch all 3 as well, was more a figure of speech maybe misunderstood online, was saying that right now MMA is my favourite combat sport, followed by K-1 then boxing, but MMA is running the risk should "Lay and Pray" continue to be allowed remain so dominant that it could drop to number 3 on ly list under K-1 and Boxing.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

I feel like we all have this disuccion after every PPV in which Kos, Fitch, GSP or any other wrestler wins a fight. It's this simple, if the other guy could stop it, it wouldn't happen.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> I dont choose, I watch all 3 as well, was more a figure of speech maybe misunderstood online, was saying that right now MMA is my favourite combat sport, followed by K-1 then boxing, but MMA is running the risk should "Lay and Pray" continue to be allowed remain so dominant that it could drop to number 3 on ly list under K-1 and Boxing.


K1 should be number one on every person's favorite sports list for the existence of Badr Hari alone.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

I didn't have a problem with GSP-Hardy, or Fitch-Saunders. Boring fights but they didn't spend 3 minute stretches literally doing nothing like Koscheck.

And I agree with whoever said that they don't allow cage clinching, why can't you lock in a body lock and hit a guy for 5 min but you can lay on him?


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

For the people complaining about wrestling, I feel that you arent true MMA fans, You guys shouldnt be watching the UFC which offers a very big roster talent and they are all MMArtists and not brawlers.

If you guys did buy the event, thanks for giving the UFC money and if you streamed it, dont complain.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

TLC said:


> By choking them. What does that have to do with the human fire blankets?


 Have you ever seen the Gracie/Severn fight from UFC 4? _*shivers*_ the minute Severn ran into somebody who didn't instinctively give up his back he was screwed. 


TLC said:


> Right, so when he fought someone with skill, he ended up losing because all he did was wrestle and couldn't do damage? Sweet, I love when people negate their own arguments.
> 
> Funny enough, Severn wouldve won under the current MMA system.


Actually there would have probably been quite a few stand ups and Royce most defiantly would have won because Severn was so far from a complete fighter which Josh Koschek is. Josh Koschek is 10X more the striker than Daley is a wrestler.


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

vilify said:


> If you get a takedown and dont do anything significant in 30secs i say stand the damn fight back up. lots of these fighters are just abusing the system and its pathetic.
> 
> the koscheck fight tonight was pure garbage. :thumbsdown:


I agree. The whole concept of "guy on top is in control" seems to prevail in the judges eyes across the board. More often than not, the guy on top is either laying there delivering rabbit punches, or just wiggling around to try and get out of sub attempts from the bottom. 

I like the 30 second, get up, rule. If you're not doing anything to gain an advantage, i.e., working to get mount, side mount, or attempt a sub from the top, then unless your somehow dominating otherwise, you should not be allowed to lay on top of someone. The judges seem to see a guy laying on top of another guy as being "in control" when it's just a matter of him being able to hold a guy beneath him. 

That isn't "trying to win the fight" which is supposed to be a huge aspect of a fighter's effectiveness, and factors into decisions, round scoring, etc.


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## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

eventhough this would be the most difficult "rule" to enforce...I agree the takedowns are getting a bit redundant.

Soon we will see more Don Frye/Shamrock-esque fights....20 mins of 2 men laying on each other.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Sekou said:


> eventhough this would be the most difficult "rule" to enforce...I agree the takedowns are getting a bit redundant.
> 
> Soon we will see more Don Frye/Shamrock-esque fights....20 mins of 2 men laying on each other.


IMO what is getting a little redundant is one dimensional strikers who won't get with the times and realize that they need some freaking wrestling and a submission game if they are gonna make it in this sport.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

Hey lets not evolve lets make a rule to make it so its just kickboxing


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Toxic said:


> IMO what is getting a little redundant is one dimensional strikers who won't get with the times and realize that they need some freaking wrestling and a submission game if they are gonna make it in this sport.


*THIS*

How often do we see a striker who is good at what he does but has the TDD to stay standing on his feet? Chuck Liddell is the most famous one and he is long long gone from what he was. Strikers need to work on all facets of the sport and not just have amazing KO power but are rookies on the ground.

I find it funny that you people complain about wrestlers, How about you change that focus and complaina bout strikers not working to get better at MMA? 

Children please, go watch boxing.


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

There was a time in MMA where BJJ was the dominant style, fighters adapted their games to counter it. Now wrestling is becoming the dominant style, fighters will adapt to that as well. It's called the evolution of MMA. I'm not the biggest fan of the style but I can appreciate it effectiveness. Part of wrestling is control. You know why that guy on the bottom isn't getting up or throwing up subs? Because he's getting controlled. Being able to control your opponent is probably the biggest part of fighting.

I'm surprised so many people still don't consider wrestling a martial art, even though it's been around longer than any other form of fighting. Maybe they should start giving out belts in wrestling so the 'martial artists" feel better about getting tooled by guys who aren't black belts.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

G_Land and Toxic know what's up. If I had my way there would be NO stand ups. I wouldn't care if people won championship belts by laying on dudes. Mixed Martial Artists need every aspect of the game, not just striking.


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## ControlledChaos (Mar 18, 2007)

vilify said:


> I love all aspects of MMA except the part when you can literally take someone down, sit on them for 5 mins, inflict zero damage and manage to win.
> 
> if you cant hold and hug your opponent for 5 mins while standing, why should you be able to do it on the ground? its BS.


Exactly how I see it too


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

If you are going to generalise strikers for not fully adapting to MMA and being able to combat the effectiveness of wrestling, then consistency dictates that you should also be unhappy with wrestlers who have awesome take-downs but do not do anything with them, just hold someone to the mat and grind out points no? That isn't adapting to MMA either that is just wrestling.

Remember MMA is still a relatively new sport that is evolving, it just hasn't evolved past one dimensional fighters of both genres.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

some of you are still missing the point. I have nothing against wrestling its a huge part of the sprort. the problem is with fighters that score takedowns, at times very sloppy takedowns but still manage to hold you down for 5 mins without doing any damage whatsover. and win!

They must implement a new standup rule, it doesnt have to be 30 secs, it could be 1 min or the first sign of obvious LNP should get a warning and then stand em up! 

This could very well mean guys like daley would get slammed on the ground repeatedly but I think its better than being used as a bean bag for 15mins.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Hawndo said:


> If you are going to generalise strikers for not fully adapting to MMA and being able to combat the effectiveness of wrestling, then consistency dictates that you should also be unhappy with wrestlers who have awesome take-downs but do not do anything with them, just hold someone to the mat and grind out points no? That isn't adapting to MMA either that is just wrestling.
> 
> Remember MMA is still a relatively new sport that is evolving, it just hasn't evolved past one dimensional fighters of both genres.


That logic is very flawed. First before I go on, let me say that I dont agree with LnP but if a fighter is so much better then you and is keeping on your back, *do something*.

You cant use that statement because in competitive sports, if someone is beating you and you cant answer them, then its your fault whether they are using some stupid tactic, or some annoying and frustrating tactic. It is your job to stop what they try to do and beat them.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

vilify said:


> If you get a takedown and dont do anything significant in 30secs i say stand the damn fight back up. lots of these fighters are just abusing the system and its pathetic.
> 
> the koscheck fight tonight was pure garbage. :thumbsdown:


...Kos is not garbage. Bottom line - Wrestling has proven to be the best base to get into MMA. Most of us have see Kos evolve into a complete fighter. Wrestling is part of the MMA game and GSP is the best example of that. Josh is a top notch wrestler and using his biggest strength to win is the smartest thing to do. Josh's takedowns were crisp. Paul just got owned by a great wrestler. If anybody is garbage it's Daley with his cheapshot. I'm glad Dana gave him the boot...


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

It´s about fighters going in there with the clear intent of getting enough points to take the win.
Finishing the fight? Doesnt really matter, they will be happy and call me dominant if i do nothing...
That´s a disgusting atitude and is not giving the fans or the sport the respect they deserve.



BrutalKO said:


> ...Kos is not garbage.


Kos is bellow garbage, besides not going in there to fight he managed to trash talk Daly so bad that the kid lost its compustore. Kos is about everything that´s wrong with the sport.


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

spec0688 said:


> That logic is very flawed. First before I go on, let me say that I dont agree with LnP but if a fighter is so much better then you and is keeping on your back, do something.
> 
> You cant use that statement because in competitive sports, if someone is beating you and you cant answer them, then its your fault whether they are using some stupid tactic, or some annoying and frustrating tactic. It is your job to stop what they try to do and beat them.


I don't understand, you are saying that it is not okay to be a one-dimensional kickboxer but it is acceptable to be a one dimensional wrestler?

For the record I don't want to see "k-1 in small gloves" I love the ground game and love takedowns, I just hate lay n pray.

You seem to put the pressure on the striker to learn TDD and keep the fight standing to impose his will but leave none of the burden on a wrestler to take the fight to the ground (as an accomplished wrestler should) but actually work for a finish, or at least work in general.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

AmdM said:


> It´s about fighters going in there with the clear intent of getting enough points to take the win.
> Finishing the fight? Doesnt really matter, they will be happy and call me dominant if i do nothing...
> That´s a disgusting atitude and is not giving the fans or the sport the respect they deserve.


Kos tried finishing the fight, he almost got a choke sunk in but Daley got out of it. I hate when people say 'this guy didnt do anything', yet he was trying to pull off subs and get better positioning. 

What happen when Kos got full mount? are you saying he let go just go prolong the fight? Daley got out of it. 

Child please, Go watch boxing or K1.


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

Two sub attempts and enough strikes to count on two hands in 15 minutes of fighting is not what I would call working.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Spec0688 said:


> Kos tried finishing the fight, he almost got a choke sunk in but Daley got out of it. I hate when people say 'this guy didnt do anything', yet he was trying to pull off subs and get better positioning.
> 
> What happen when Kos got full mount? are you saying he let go just go prolong the fight? Daley got out of it.
> 
> Child please, Go watch boxing or K1.


how about you go watch some wrestling and stay out of our sport :thumbsup:


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## out 4 the count (Oct 13, 2008)

It's probably been said, but I'll say it again because it's the truth, go watch K1 if you want to see stand up fighters!

The appeal of MMA to me is it's as close to a real combat situation as you can get whilst not allowing real disabling damage such as spine strikes, eye gouges, groin shots etc.

A real fight will very often end up with two men grappling and rolling around on the floor. It's just the way it works.

If Daley truly wanted to showcase his standup skills then he has to learn how to be elusive like Anderson. Taking a hit and hitting the guy back harder is all well and good, until they prepare for that eventuality and neutralise you by taking the fight to the ground.

At the end of the day, I bet the same people moaning about Kos laying on Daley are the same people who moan that Silva doesn't engage enough. Use your heads, it's all linked.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Hawndo said:


> I don't understand, you are saying that it is not okay to be a one-dimensional kickboxer but it is acceptable to be a one dimensional wrestler?
> 
> For the record I don't want to see "k-1 in small gloves" I love the ground game and love takedowns, I just hate lay n pray.
> 
> You seem to put the pressure on the striker to learn TDD and keep the fight standing to impose his will but leave none of the burden on a wrestler to take the fight to the ground (as an accomplished wrestler should) but actually work for a finish, or at least work in general.


Did you not see what I wrote? I dont like when fighters do LnP, but if you are getting LnP'ed by a wrestler, *DO SOMETHING.*That is my message, I am not trying to promote LnP, but I am tired of fighters/people complaining they got LnP'ed. 

Kos wasnt LnP'ing, He did it for 1minute maybe at the end of the fight, but what about the other 13-14 minutes? He got full mount, almost attempted a submission and numerous other things. All you people see is the LnP but not the other better things.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

vilify said:


> how about you go watch some wrestling and stay out of our sport :thumbsup:


uhhhh:confused02:

I really dont understand this. This is your sport? The one who is complaining of LnP? Which Kos didnt even do. How about you watch the full duration of the match instead of watching half of it.


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

Spec0688 said:


> Did you not see what I wrote? I dont like when fighters do LnP, but if you are getting LnP'ed by a wrestler, *DO SOMETHING.*That is my message, I am not trying to promote LnP, but I am tired of fighters/people complaining they got LnP'ed.
> 
> Kos wasnt LnP'ing, He did it for 1minute maybe at the end of the fight, but what about the other 13-14 minutes? He got full mount, almost attempted a submission and numerous other things. All you people see is the LnP but not the other better things.



Ill copy paste what I wrote just a little above, since you didn't see what I posted;



> Two sub attempts and enough strikes to count on two hands in 15 minutes of fighting is not what I would call working.


Before you or someone else tells me to go watch K-1, I fully respect all ground fighters, as much as stand up fighters, but when I see someone taken down I constantly want to see them advance their position, deliver strikes or attempt subs, Kos did work but not enough to get him out of the lay n pray zone, at least not in my opinion. Everyone to their own I guess.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Spec0688 said:


> uhhhh:confused02:
> 
> I really dont understand this. This is your sport? The one who is complaining of LnP? Which Kos didnt even do. How about you watch the full duration of the match instead of watching half of it.


I watched it live. thank you :thumbsup:

and im tired of dry humping wrestlers invading our sport. like i said go watch olympic or college wrestling.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

AmdM said:


> It´s about fighters going in there with the clear intent of getting enough points to take the win.
> Finishing the fight? Doesnt really matter, they will be happy and call me dominant if i do nothing...
> That´s a disgusting atitude and is not giving the fans or the sport the respect they deserve.
> 
> ...


...Josh may need an attitude adjustment but I was referring to his game in response to another post. Like it or not- pure fact- Koscheck's game is NOT garbage...


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## TheGuRu (Feb 17, 2010)

I agree that it's pathetic to watch them, but you guys also gag on GSP's balls everytime he fights when he does the same garbage. Maybe he throws a few more shots and tries a submission, but he just lays and prays too.


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## recon6991 (Nov 21, 2007)

How come people who are complaining about LnP never complain about crappy stand up fights? There are plenty of breaks in most fights, whether on the ground or standing.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

That's simple, dock fighter's pay 10% if it goes to a decision. Wrestlers are the only fighters whose plan it is to go to the last bell. It'll increase the pace (something MMA needs) and it'll make fighters take more exciting risks.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Sure and if a BJJ practitioner is unable to secure a RNC in 3 mins the judge should rip him off the guys back and stand them both up....:sarcastic09:


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## guam68 (Jun 14, 2009)

I dont think standing fighters up is a solution to the problem. Thats taking away from the ground aspect of the game. It may be boring but sometimes it just takes time. It is what it is. 

The real problem is the scoring system. Points for a takedown is understandable but just laying on top not doing jack and winning is ridiculous. I don't think that a fighter should be given a nod just for being on top and controlling. Once it hits the ground the fight could be judged on damage done and submissions attempted or something. If no one does jack the whole fight give em a draw. I don't know. Just something to keep the fighters active. 

You have to blame the fighters to some degree though too. If Daley, Hardy, whoever would actually work hard at their ground game we would see more active fights down there instead of a frickin turtle on its back. Guess Im kinda split


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

guam68 said:


> *. I don't think that a fighter should be given a nod just for being on top* and controlling. Once it hits the ground the fight could be judged on damage done and submissions attempted or something. If no one does jack the whole fight give em a draw. I don't know. Just something to keep the fighters active.


Agreed. Look at Mousasi vs Mo.



Mo took him down but everytime he did, he did NOTHING. Mousasi off his back was beating Mo's face in and attempting sub after sub. Standing he was beating his face in. But because of JUST the takedowns - Mo took the match.

Take-downs aren't slams, those take-downs don't cause any damage themselves. And if you're getting beat up on top, and not inflicting any damage, you're not winning by virtue of being on top.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Spec0688 said:


> Child please, Go watch boxing or K1.


Watch out for the stupid act.
Im intitled to a opinion even if you don´t agree with with,
no reason for you to give me the "ass hole" act.



Spec0688 said:


> Kos wasnt LnP'ing, He did it for 1minute maybe at the end of the fight, but what about the other 13-14 minutes? He got full mount, almost attempted a submission and numerous other things. All you people see is the LnP but not the other better things.


Even he admitted it in the post fight interview and apologise to the fans for getting back at TUF days, how can u say it wasn´t?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> That's simple, dock fighter's pay 10% if it goes to a decision. Wrestlers are the only fighters whose plan it is to go to the last bell. It'll increase the pace (something MMA needs) and it'll make fighters take more exciting risks.


They can't do that it could be seen as trying to influence the outcome of the fight and therefore illegal.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> Agreed. Look at Mousasi vs Mo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kos/Daley was NOTHING like Mo/Mousasi though. Daley was completely tooled on the ground and had his back taken and/or mounted in every round.


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## pt447 (Sep 1, 2006)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Sure and if a BJJ practitioner is unable to secure a RNC in 3 mins the judge should rip him off the guys back and stand them both up....:sarcastic09:


If he was actively trying to go for a sub, then no. It's only bad when people are laying there, doing nothing, and the guy on top gets the credit simply for having gotten a takedown and done nothing to use that advantage!

Some seem to be missing the point here:

If a fighter takes someone to the ground, or happens to get on top while on the ground, but does nothing to take advantage of that position, then what's the point? A fighter should get points and the benefit of the doubt simply by laying on top of someone? That's silly. 

The emphasis needs to be taken off simply getting takedowns. How many times have we seen guys with a great ability to take a fighter down, but do nothing with that position? 

Simply getting a take down shouldn't count for anything if that fighter does nothing after taking a guy down. If they're trying, but getting stopped, fine, at least they're trying. But we often see guys take fighters down at will, but do nothing with the position. 

That's crappy...


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Toxic said:


> 5 seconds of fighters circling is boring why don't we hold it to the same equivolent?



I like this the best.
But i would go one step beyond.
There are a lot of fights between strikers, wich are anticipated to be wars, but they end-up by being 2 guys circling around and "trying to find the right distance".


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

JimmyJames said:


> Maybe if Daley had a decent ground game or could stop a takedown you would be thinking otherwise........


I agree with you to a certain extent, yet also get tired of elite level wrestlers winning decisions. 

I too agree that Daley needs drastically to develop a ground game, or at least work with Chuck on his TDD. However, wrestlers need to find a way to start FINISHING fights. Wrestling for a decision simply gets old and boring.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

I imagine this current "trend" will only last so long before fighters adjust. These things happen in waves. Fighters adapted to Gracie's style; they adjusted to getting trapped/g'n'p-ed against the cage (the good fighters know how to use the cage to stand up nowadays); plenty other examples... the point is it's just another facet of the game that will inevitably be digested, analyzed, and counteracted. If you have the talent, at least - MMA is getting so much more competitive & technical the past few years. (I won't get into that tangent)

I have 0 problem with this "issue". (TBH I'm much more bothered by full rounds of circling and backpedalling, "waiting for the counterpunch") If you can't counteract a "lay & pray" then you lose/learn/evolve. Or jump on the wahhmbulance.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

limba said:


> I like this the best.
> But i would go one step beyond.
> There are a lot of fights between strikers, wich are anticipated to be wars, but they end-up by being 2 guys circling around and "trying to find the right distance".


Rashad and Machida didn't throw a punch for 3 minutes and even then the first round was completely lacking in action.


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## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

30 secs is a bit much. I do think refs should stand fighters up more often but imo you can't put a time to it.

MMA is not a kickboxing match; grappling is allowed. It can take longer than 30 sec to manoeuvre into position for a sub. Two fighters can be busting their a$$ and never move out of half guard. 

Stalemates do happen and as long as the fighters are working I think you should let them play out a bit.

However if a fighter gets a takedown and does nothing but sit in full-guard and hug the guy I'd stand them up after 20 sec.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I think alot of people are discrediting the huge improvement Daley showed off his back, Daley showed an ability to neutralize alot of what Kos was able to do, Kos could pass to half guard with ease but Daley was doing a good job of keeping him there and controling his posture. Kos is getting to much heat when Daley should get alot of credit.


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## DahStoryTella (Jul 11, 2009)

Oh, what a surprise. A wrestler uses his skills to win a fight, and a forum complains.

What's new?

Until people like Daley/Hardy can stop takedowns from wrestlers like GSP/Kos, oh well.

Deal with it.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Rashad and Machida didn't throw a punch for 3 minutes and even then the first round was completely lacking in action.


And is that ok?
That´s not what everybody is expecting for and most certnainly not what people are paying for!


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

Toxic said:


> I think alot of people are discrediting the huge improvement Daley showed off his back, Daley showed an ability to neutralize alot of what Kos was able to do, Kos could pass to half guard with ease but Daley was doing a good job of keeping him there and controling his posture.* Kos is getting to much heat when Daley should get alot of credit.*


I think I am very much guilty of that myself. I just held Kos' ground game in very high stead and expected him to do so much more on the ground. That is actually a very good point.


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## MetalMunkey (Oct 14, 2006)

While I agree witht he original poster in that the fight was boring and alot of wrestler fights get boring I don't think standing them up is the right solution. This is Mixed Martial Arts, we shouldn't be taking away positions or techniques. Instead of taking away we should be adding. Allowing knees to the head on a grounded opponent would change the ground game completely. First using to defend against a big double, and then from top wrestlers would prees more to get side control because of the dmamge they could inflict and it would force fighters like Daley and Hardy to learn to get the hell out of there. Would it fix the problem completely??? Hell no, but like I said MMA is going to evolve by adding techniques not taking them away.


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## mattreis324 (Mar 24, 2009)

What good would standing them up have done? Kos would have just taken Daley back down within 30 seconds anyway.


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## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

I think one solution is to introduce a penalty card system for lack of action.

As the sport grows there is a lot more on the line with each fight. That is naturally going to make fighters less aggressive. 

Losing a fight used to mean missing out on $1000 - $10000. Big money when I was in college but at those prices the goal for each fighter is repeat business.

Last night Kos and Daley fought for not only a title shot; but a stint on a television show watched by ~ 2 million people. Maybe even a Primetime series. Chilling with in front of America with Rachelle Leah. F--K maybe Under Armour or Gatorade will call one day.

That's potentially worth millions.

The loser gets squat. 

With that much on the line fighters will take less risks. There needs to be a penalty system for fighters who take no risks and won't engage.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

For those who said bring up the penalty system or the yellow card system who gets it? Does Kos get penalized because Daley was able to control his posture and prevent him from doing any real damage? Daley being successful in maintaining half guard and controlling Kos's posture is just as much to blame as Kos. People forget it takes two to stalemate. Daley should have took the chance at the end of the third he knew he was losing he should have rolled the dice gave up his back and tried to get up. If your already losing take a chance and go out on your shield win or lose.


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## bowerboy (Mar 18, 2010)

They both get it because they both aren't working for a significant amount of time.
the yellow card system with the opportunity to take up to 30% of a fighters purse would make stalemates almost never happen, unless the fighters are idiots who don't care if they get disqualified and/or lose money.
I would hope someone could tell dana or petition the ufc for this system to be impelemented.


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

bowerboy said:


> They both get it because they both aren't working for a significant amount of time.
> the yellow card system with the opportunity to take up to 30% of a fighters purse would make stalemates almost never happen, unless the fighters are idiots who don't care if they get disqualified and/or lose money.
> I would hope someone could tell dana or petition the ufc for this system to be impelemented.


:confused02: what would be the point of taking a point away from both of them:confused02:

-------------------------------

ground fighters are already at a severe disadvantage in mma, the fights are started standing, if fights get boring on the ground/crowd boo's they are stood back up ..ect and you guys want to give ground fighters more of a disadvantage? a wrestler moving trying to pass guard improve his position ect.. is the ground fighters version of throwing jabs and faints.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

The UFC will never implement anything they fight according to the unified rules of MMA, athletic commissions don't just allow you to put new rules in place. You can remove aspects but something like this can be seen as the organization trying to influence the outcome of the fights which is highly illegal.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Just re-watched the fight...

So boring, so lamme, so null.

No way this is ppv material!


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## FrodoFraggins (Oct 25, 2009)

I don't really like making insults, but there is an absolute lack of understanding being demonstrated here.

If a fighter can take you down to your back at will, there's a problem with your skills. Work on them!

You can't just immediately get your opponent in position for submissions unless they are complete idiots. It takes time, strength and smarts. 

You may not like this aspect of MMA, but there's no reason to stand up a fight while a fighter is trying to get into a more advantageous position on the ground.

To effectively GnP your opponent you also need to move into proper position, which generally takes time. 

Neither GSP vs. Hardy or Kos vs. Daley were simply LnP fights. But they both exhibited the lack of well rounded skills exhibited by Daley and Hardy.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

FrodoFraggins said:


> I don't really like making insults, but there is an absolute lack of understanding being demonstrated here.
> 
> If a fighter can take you down to your back at will, there's a problem with your skills. Work on them!
> 
> ...


I agree this would grossly favor strikers who instead of having to learn how to defend the TD or use the guard they would merely have to learn to grab hold and wait for the stand up (To a point they can now but not as obscene as this would be.)


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

AmdM said:


> Just re-watched the fight...
> 
> So boring, so lamme, so null.
> 
> No way this is ppv material!


I don't know if the people saying this are just not adept to the ground game or looking for a KO or what... I'm not trying to insult you I'm merely curious. I find things like this fascinating. Kos was working almost constantly on the ground to improve his position, had at LEAST one sub attempt per round and either took Daley's back or mounted him in every round, I'd hardly call that boring. That fight was mere millimeters from being over quite a few times. Maybe the dude wasn't rocked but he still damn near went to sleep a few times.


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

I agree this is why I don't like Brock Lesnar if you get a big guy that just turtles without doing damage or advancing to submission attempt it should go back to the feet.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

bmo37 said:


> I agree this is why I don't like Brock Lesnar if you get a big guy that just turtles without doing damage or advancing to submission attempt it should go back to the feet.


Its up to Daley to work of his back to, people get submitted off there back, Daley was content to hold Kos in half guard, control his posture and never once risked giving up that half guard in order to try and stand up. Why is Kos looked down on when all Daley was trying to do was survive, he wasn't looking for a sub, he wasn't taking any chances to get up he was just hanging on for deer life.


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

Bitter Daley fans... ROFLZ

He is a fishouttawater on his back. 

Improved TDD... ROFLZ

He'll have good fights in SF vs Zaromskis and Noons though for you noobs that don't understand ground game...


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

TraMaI said:


> I don't know if the people saying this are just not adept to the ground game or looking for a KO or what... I'm not trying to insult you I'm merely curious. I find things like this fascinating. Kos was working almost constantly on the ground to improve his position, had at LEAST one sub attempt per round and either took Daley's back or mounted him in every round, I'd hardly call that boring. That fight was mere millimeters from being over quite a few times. Maybe the dude wasn't rocked but he still damn near went to sleep a few times.


Give-me a couple of guys that go in there to work hard, and i won´t complian.
But if i get a human blanket holding a guy down, waiting for the 15 minutes to go by to get a points win i will email UFC asking for my 35€ back!



Toxic said:


> Its up to Daley to work of his back to, people get submitted off there back, Daley was content to hold Kos in half guard, control his posture and never once risked giving up that half guard in order to try and stand up. Why is Kos looked down on when all Daley was trying to do was survive, he wasn't looking for a sub, he wasn't taking any chances to get up he was just hanging on for deer life.


Kos is very very good on the ground.
Daley sucks at the ground.
Daley was doing all his lack of skill allowed him to.
KOS was happy to know that Taking him down is all it takes to win, so he didn´t even try that hard.
It was really a easy fight for Kos, but if you are that better at least try to provide the fans with a show.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

AmdM said:


> Give-me a couple of guys that go in there to work hard, and i won´t complian.
> But if i get a human blanket holding a guy down, waiting for the 15 minutes to go by to get a points win i will email UFC asking for my 35€ back!


were we watching the same fight? 

http://fightmetric.com/fights/Koscheck-Daley.html

looks like he did a little more than hold daley down to me.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

HexRei said:


> were we watching the same fight?
> 
> http://fightmetric.com/fights/Koscheck-Daley.html
> 
> looks like he did a little more than hold daley down to me.


To caress a guy actually counts in that site? lol


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

AmdM said:


> To caress a guy actually counts in that site? lol


Ok, let's go look at Compustrike's stats then, certainly if Fightmetric is way off-base, Compustrike will probably get it right.

http://www.compustrike.com/stats_files/ufc_113/Koscheck-Daley.HTM

Oh wait.


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## TheCleeM (Jul 9, 2008)

AmdM said:


> Give-me a couple of guys that go in there to work hard, and i won´t complian.
> But if i get a human blanket holding a guy down, waiting for the 15 minutes to go by to get a points win i will email UFC asking for my 35€ back!


i wouldn't expect that check in the mail anytime soon. i've stated time and time again that if a fighter doesn't like being on their back, find a way to stand up. it's the same argument as when people get mad about teams running up the score in professional sports. you are a professional. find a way to stop them from scoring.

also to those of you who hate the ground game so much... you know who is fighting on the card before you order it, right? i am not trying to upset anyone but seriously. here's a tip: if you see names like "koscheck" "fitch" or "st-pierre".. theres a good chance a majority of the fight is going to take place on the ground. get ready for it, get used to it, and don't ask for your money back if that's what ends up happening.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

TheCleeM said:


> also to those of you who hate the ground game so much...


Think you´re missing the point.

I love ground game.
Im a BJJ amateur myself.
I just hate this flaw in the sistem today, that allows fighters to win a fight by doing so little.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

AmdM said:


> Think you´re missing the point.
> 
> I love ground game.
> Im a BJJ amateur myself.
> I just hate this flaw in the sistem today, that allows fighters to win a fight by doing so little.


With proper technique, You have a chance of getting up from your back, The problem with this LnP discussion is that wrestlers are facing amateur ground fighters who know little to zero about getting up from your back. 

You take chuck down, he gets back up within a minute. Hardy had GSP on his back and guess what?? GSP got up in 30 seconds or so after setting up his hips properly. Fighters need to learn.


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## TheCleeM (Jul 9, 2008)

AmdM said:


> Think you´re missing the point.
> 
> I love ground game.
> Im a BJJ amateur myself.
> I just hate this flaw in the sistem today, that allows fighters to win a fight by doing so little.


i wasn't trying to target you. i was just trying to make a point about what people expect and whether it's reasonable or not depending on the fighter. 

and i dont think the system is flawed. does it make for the most exciting fight? not always. did you think daley won that fight?


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

HexRei said:


> Ok, let's go look at Compustrike's stats then, certainly if Fightmetric is way off-base, Compustrike will probably get it right.
> 
> http://www.compustrike.com/stats_files/ufc_113/Koscheck-Daley.HTM
> 
> Oh wait.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

lol! well i can tell we're not going to agree on this topic, but i'll give your props on the image, that's hilarious


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

AmdM said:


> Think you´re missing the point.
> 
> I love ground game.
> Im a BJJ amateur myself.
> I just hate this flaw in the sistem today, that allows fighters to win a fight by doing so little.


I think the point your missing is ground games are awesome if used to end a fight via submission or damage. I hate ground games that go nowhere just for the sake of control. To me it's equilivent to a boxer wrapping up and opponent constantly.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

bmo37 said:


> I think the point your missing is *ground games are awesome if used to end a fight via submission or damage.* I hate ground games that go nowhere just for the sake of control. To me it's equilivent to a boxer *wrapping up and opponent constantly*.


I agree 100% and I think its only a matter of time before we see some changes to this loophole.

Its a big disgrace to MMA.:thumbsdown:


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

bmo37 said:


> I think the point your missing is ground games are awesome if used to end a fight via submission or damage. I hate ground games that go nowhere just for the sake of control. To me it's equilivent to a boxer wrapping up and opponent constantly.




I agree with that!
What have i said that made you think otherwise?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

AmdM said:


> Kos is very very good on the ground.
> Daley sucks at the ground.
> Daley was doing all his lack of skill allowed him to.
> KOS was happy to know that Taking him down is all it takes to win, so he didn´t even try that hard.
> It was really a easy fight for Kos, but if you are that better at least try to provide the fans with a show.


So its Kos's fault that Daley sucks on the ground and doesn't have the TD defense to prevent the fight from going there? do you not see the problem here? Your mad Daley was unable to get up or do anything but hold on for deer life to prevent Kos from doing anything, instead of being mad at Daley your blaming Kos because you want to see guys bang instead and dislike wrestling.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

If the guy on top is doing nothing

what is the guy on the bottom doing


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## AlexZ (Sep 14, 2007)

vilify said:


> I watched it live. thank you :thumbsup:
> 
> and im tired of dry humping wrestlers invading our sport. like i said go watch olympic or college wrestling.


:thumb02: KOS has the best take downs P4P but he hardly put Daley in danger or hurt him. Daley and Hardy were probably bruised and beat more during their sparring sessions than during their actual fight. 

Yes opponents should be skilled on the ground and/or have take down defense but these wrestlers should also be skilled enough to do some damage while on the ground and not just smother their opponents for 98% of the round!!!!


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

PRIDE had that omniscient voice that called "ACTION!" when there was any kind of stalemate or inactivity.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

AlexZ said:


> :thumb02: KOS has the best take downs P4P but he hardly put Daley in danger or hurt him. Daley and Hardy were probably bruised and beat more during their sparring sessions than during their actual fight.
> 
> Yes opponents should be skilled on the ground and/or have take down defense but these wrestlers should also be skilled enough to do some damage while on the ground and not just smother their opponents for 98% of the round!!!!


Yup. GSP vs Kos, spoon-a-thon. It's going to be the most thorough display of Manffection since Brokeback Mountain. 

GSP's going to man-**** Kos anyway. Unless Kos brings his acting A-game and gets GSP DQ'd. Outside of that, all that pre-cage lotion is going for a different use.


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## AlexZ (Sep 14, 2007)

VolcomX311 said:


> Yup. GSP vs Kos, spoon-a-thon. It's going to be the most thorough display of Manffection since Brokeback Mountain.
> 
> GSP's going to man-**** Kos anyway. Unless Kos brings his acting A-game and gets GSP DQ'd. Outside of that, all that pre-cage lotion is going for a different use.


LMAO!!!!!!!


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## machidaisgod (Aug 14, 2009)

Yeah in the whole fight maybe they should have stood them up 3-4 times, Kos check was going for subs and working that is mma, maybe Paul Daley should learn it? And if they did stand them up those 3-4 times what would have happened next?


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## TheCleeM (Jul 9, 2008)

machidaisgod said:


> And if they did stand them up those 3-4 times what would have happened next?


paul daley wouldnt have been able to stuff a koscheck takedown or get up from his back and the internet people would hold it against koscheck.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

VolcomX311 said:


> Yup. GSP vs Kos, spoon-a-thon. It's going to be the most thorough display of Manffection since Brokeback Mountain.
> 
> GSP's going to man-**** Kos anyway. Unless Kos brings his acting A-game and gets GSP DQ'd. Outside of that, all that pre-cage lotion is going for a different use.


LOL

It´s 8:00 am here, pretty sure im having a nice day after reading this. :thumb02:


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Hawndo said:


> I don't understand, you are saying that it is not okay to be a one-dimensional kickboxer but it is acceptable to be a one dimensional wrestler?
> 
> For the record I don't want to see "k-1 in small gloves" I love the ground game and love takedowns, I just hate lay n pray.
> 
> You seem to put the pressure on the striker to learn TDD and keep the fight standing to impose his will but leave none of the burden on a wrestler to take the fight to the ground (as an accomplished wrestler should) but actually work for a finish, or at least work in general.


Difference with being a one dimensional kick boxer is that this aspect resembles fighting more than a guy just lying on top of another doing nothing. At least with kick boxing, one or two of the guys are getting hit, doing damage. With lay and pray wrestling, its simply just lying there, doing nothing, no damage, that doesnt happen in fighting, period. You wrestle in fights, hell yea, but whilst wrestling, your also trying to beat the snot out of them, not just lying there. Some thing needs to be done about this.

Edit: Sorry, mis-read your post man.


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## Kado (Apr 18, 2010)

I do not see anything wrong with the wrestling. I enjoy it, and its mixed martial arts, so find a way to defend it. I love the ground game more then anything, and I respect the skill it takes to take someone down, and keep them down. Its a part of the game, so learn to respect it.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

TheCleeM said:


> paul daley wouldnt have been able to stuff a koscheck takedown or get up from his back and the internet people would hold it against koscheck.


Hmmmm this seems so familar ......nah no way it woulda went down like that lol


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

we all appreciate wrestling we just dont like people abusing the system.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

I agree with standing up if there is zero action ...there is a line but also it is on the other guys hands to do something as well....everybody knows the rules and a lot of times will hug a guy from his guard to make the ref stand them up....either way I blame it on the one getting owned to know enough to be able to stand....isnt that what a training camp is for?


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

we need the system revamped or the current rules need to be enforced aggresively. stalling should not be a way to victory.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

G_Land said:


> I agree with standing up if there is zero action ...there is a line but also it is on the other guys hands to do something as well....everybody knows the rules and a lot of times will hug a guy from his guard to make the ref stand them up....either way I blame it on the one getting owned to know enough to be able to stand....isnt that what a training camp is for?


I keep saying and saying this exact thing but people just continue to whine about the fighter on top. If a fighter is good on his back and has the right techniques, he can easily get up against *most* fighters. Take a look at some top BJJ fighters and take a look at how long they stay on the ground. We dont see these guys often on their backs but they have the skill to quickly get up. 

Hardy had GSP on the ground and got up in a matter of seconds after setting it up properly, Chuck Liddell is also known to get up really fast with good technique...In fact, Rua just showed us on saturday. Machida had him on the ground twice and both times he got up, Would a equivalent fighter of Hardy's or Daley's skill be able to do what Rua did? NOPE


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Spec0688 said:


> I keep saying and saying this exact thing but people just continue to whine about the fighter on top. If a fighter is good on his back and has the right techniques, he can easily get up against *most* fighters. Take a look at some top BJJ fighters and take a look at how long they stay on the ground. We dont see these guys often on their backs but they have the skill to quickly get up.
> 
> Hardy had GSP on the ground and got up in a matter of seconds after setting it up properly, Chuck Liddell is also known to get up really fast with good technique...In fact, Rua just showed us on saturday. Machida had him on the ground twice and both times he got up, Would a equivalent fighter of Hardy's or Daley's skill be able to do what Rua did? NOPE


I dont see why so many people, including yourself are missing the point entirely. Im all for a wrestler to neutralise a striker with wrestling, i really am. What i and may people are against are wrestlers simply lying on top of them, not working hard enough to advance their position or do any damage on the ground. 

Lets compare chael sonnen vs nate to koscheck vs paul daley. Two VERY similar match up styles here, but two VERY different fights. Chael sonnen takes down nate with his wrestling and what does he do? He controls nate on the ground and he beats the shit out of him on the ground via elbows, punches what ever. It made for an entertaining fight. Now, lets look at kos vs daley. Kos takes daley down like chael did but he did **** all with it. A couple of weak sub attempts and the odd advance in position. This is not fighting, and this is not what the sport is all about. Kos should have been working harder, punching daley, elbowing him, trying to finish like chael did. Instead he knew that simply controlling daley for 15 minutes would be enough to secure the victory.

Not only do fights like this make me lose respect for fighters but it is also really damaging the sport of MMA. I try to show people i know mma fights to get them hooked, but when ever fights like this happen they decide to never watch it again and its understandable. This is mma fighting, people want to see skill full action and fighting, not dull, uneventful, boring fights which reward fighters for abusing the flawed scoring system. 

Things need to change.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

I really dont see the HUGE difference you are trying to imply, Chael didnt even try to pass his guard. Throwing weak punches from the guard position doesnt do a whole lot to your arguement. 

In fact, Chael did the bare minimum to keep himself busy, I find Fitch's fights more entertaining then Sonnen vs Nate. Sonnen looked more beat up then Nate and he was taking punches from a fighter on his back! that is hilarious!

I also know the point you are trying to make, but you can just simply fault the top fighter(which everyone is doing), Why doesnt the fighter on his back do anything besides pray that the ref stands them up? Both fighters are at fault if there is to be one at fault.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Indeed both fighters are at fault, hence why the rules should be changed. Im not saying stand them up, but employ the pride yellow cad rules which forces them to work and press the action, hence why pride had so many fast paced, entertaining fights.


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