# Bruce Lee In UFC1



## Dylanfsd (Jun 5, 2009)

Lets say a prime Bruce Lee enters UFC 1. Do you guys think he wouldve been able to defeat the likes of shamrock and gracie? Just curious on everyones opinion


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## El Bresko (Mar 12, 2010)

If you are curious on everyone's opinion you should learn how to use the search function, this could quite possibly be the most over created thread in the history of MMA forums.

P4P threads are annoying, but bearable as it's going on current events and is constantly changing, this topic has been stagnant since the beginning.


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Bruce Lee's takedowns and grappling are very under-rated. 

(The list of fighting schools he trained in include western wrestling and jiujitsu...) 



> 1.Wing Chun
> 2.Northern Praying Mantis
> 3.Southern Praying Mantis
> 4.Choy Li Fut
> ...


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## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

Wow, I had no clue he studied in so many disciplines and I love Bruce Lee. Still remember him saying how he believed you needed to know multiple disciplines to be a complete fighter.



> MRBRESK said:
> 
> 
> > If you are curious on everyone's opinion you should learn how to use the search function, this could quite possibly be the most over created thread in the history of MMA forums.
> ...


Dude relax. I've been on here since 2006 and read the forum almost daily, I just don't post often but I see a lot of the stuff people post. Some of the newer members won't go and do a search for old threads, so if someone decides to post a topic you've read before, it shouldn't be a problem, unless there are multiple threads created in a short span of time. 

Also if you find the topic "annoying or stagnant" don't bother replying. Your post was simply counter-productive, with all due respect.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

I think the idea of how would Lee do today has been done to death. But this is a legitmate question that hasn't been addressed much at all. 

I think against Shamrock he'd have a problem of weight. Lee was 135-145 based on appearances and what I've read. So against Shamrock he'd probably be lay n prayed until either A) Shamrock tired him out so much he was able to finish, or B) Lee found some way to stand up, or perhaps submit, the Tao, while in depth goes into only meager detail regarding submission finishes that actually work in real life. 

Against Gracie, here lies the best argument. Lee would probably be the most complete stand up fighter competing. And his ground defense, against a fighter only 30lbs heavier, is a very legitimate question. I knew about the JJ trainng, I didn't know anything about American Wrestling. Which tells me he probably did know how to sprawl. Against Gracie I see it going one of two ways A) Lee via sprawl and brawl KO or B) Gracie via gi-required miracle submission technique. 

Ironically, it comes down to the same cliche we all use to decide who would likely win a fight, "Styles make fights." And while Lee stylistically would probably beat the pants off most fighters at UFC 1. Against the largest fighters (with legitimate skills) like Shamrock for example, he'd have a problem.


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## HD209458B (Mar 19, 2011)

Aldo vs Lee would be an unreal match if Bruce Lee was alive and in his prime today.


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## hadoq (Jan 6, 2011)

HD209458B said:


> Aldo vs Lee would be an unreal match if Bruce Lee was alive and in his prime today.


I'd rep you here for the first non "I hate GSP" post I've seen from you but it won't let me, you'll get it later.


Lee seemed like a legit martial artist, I don't really know how many challenges he faced in his life and against whom.

The way he trained might have been more "complete" than most MMA fighters today as it seems that "old times" martial artists really got deep into learning and mastering techniques while today artists focus on "what's efficient"

when you watch Anderson Silva fight he obviously makes some unexpected stuff work in the cage, some stuff that most other people think it wouldn't work, Silva makes it happen.

I for one think most martial arts techniques DO work, but the ones we see, for the most part, today seem to be more like a compromise between efficiency and easy to learn and master.

We're bound to see more and more talented people who'll come up with new stuff or stuff that we thought it wouldn't work but they'll put in the hard work behind to make them efficient. Just like Silva does

I want to believe Lee did that, he worked various techniques to the point of mastering them and make them efficient.

Take Wing Chun for example, I'm no expert whatsoever, but what do we see a lot in stand up fights? the jab. The principle behind is that a straight line is a shorter, faster way to go, this is the basics of wing chun.

now does wing chun works in the cage ? I think I remember seeing a wing chun guy get his ass handed to him in a cage in a video some time ago. But I think that if you work on the art to the point of truly mastering it, it could be efficient, when mixed with other arts (which is the point of "mixed martial arts")

Lee followed these principles, learn as much as possible and focus on what works. So he might have been the first "well rounded fighter" around.

That said, we'll never know


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

I'll tell you what would have happened. He would have kicked the shit out of all of the strikers then possibily lose to Royce Gracie. That's where the fun begins if you ever read any of his books he was FANATICAL when it came to training, sparring, and conditioning. He once beat up a person and became winded. He was disappointed that the fight took longer than a minute and the fact that he was breathing hard. What does that say of his mindset. He's beyond just a typical martial artist as he strives for perfection. Thus he would have learned BJJ and trained his ass off taking care of Royce the second time around. No questions. 

Compare all the other martial artists at the time and they don't have the physique he does. In the 1970s (40 years ago) he looked like an MMA fighter in the present who's completely ripped with 1% - 5% body fat. Wayyy ahead of his time. That's what made him so prolific. 

I actually never get tired of these Bruce Lee threads. I find it to be fascinating stuff.

BTW: Nice analysis Hadog. I agree completely.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

He only weighed about 9 stone(~130lbs), So i think as soon as any body got a hold of him he would lose, just based on size alone. Imagine if Pat Smith got a hold of him, that would be a bad night for bruce no doubt, even though Bruce was clearly more skilled in all areas, Pat's power and size advantage alone would of hurt Bruce badly.

Bruce v Royce would of been interesting as i think it would of been tough for royce to grab him, i think Bruce's speed would of been to much for him, but as ive said As soon as he faced someone 200lbs+ it would be a real tough fight for him.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I really believe that Royce Gracie wouldn't have been able to get a hold of him and that Bruce would have Knocked him out if he came in slow like he did back in the day.


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## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

HD209458B said:


> Aldo vs Lee would be an unreal match if Bruce Lee was alive and in his prime today.


Sounds awesome. Repped.:thumbsup:

Lee would still win.



No_Mercy said:


> I actually never get tired of these Bruce Lee threads. I find it to be fascinating stuff.
> 
> BTW: Nice analysis Hadog. I agree completely.



This.


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

I think the same thing would happen to Lee that happened to everyone else at UFC 1. Gracie would take him down and he'd be unfamiliar with what Royce was doing and get subbed. Even if Lee was familiar with wrestling and jiu jitsu it doesn't bring him up to Gracie-level grappling. He'd get tapped in my opinion.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Calibretto9 said:


> I think the same thing would happen to Lee that happened to everyone else at UFC 1. Gracie would take him down and he'd be unfamiliar with what Royce was doing and get subbed. Even if Lee was familiar with wrestling and jiu jitsu it doesn't bring him up to Gracie-level grappling. He'd get tapped in my opinion.


This is one of the few realistic and sane post on this topic.

Bruce Lee @ 130lbs would get wrecked before he made it up to fight Royce Gracie. People are so caught up in his acting skills they think he's a real life action hero.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

vilify said:


> This is one of the few realistic and sane post on this topic.
> 
> Bruce Lee @ 130lbs would get wrecked before he made it up to fight Royce Gracie. People are so caught up in his acting skills they think he's a real life action hero.


And the most awesome thing is  It will always be that way for centuries to come :thumb02:

Thats the mystic about The Master Bruce Lee raise02:


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Guys I got something very important to tell you and I want you all to sit down for this........Are you ready?......





Santa Clause is not real., nope your parents lied to you, neither are the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. 

It may come as a surprise but the Bruce Lee superman of martial arts schtick is nothing but a big bag of lies and exagerations. Lee would have lost, you want proof well Lee founded a style, his style. Now pop quiz how many elite Jeet Kune do fighters are at the top of mma? There is the odd fighter that dabbled in it but lets be honest there are fighters who dabbled in Wing Chun and nobody is taking it nearly as serious. Lee did not father mixed martial arts he may have had the philosophical idea in his head but the way he actually conceptualized and practiced it don't even remotely resemble the sport we see today. Lee was just as blinded by the mystique of traditional martial arts as many of his contemporaries and that is evident in his body of work. Lee''s great feats are nothing more than exaggerations based on the fact that people still had the idea of mystery surrounding traditional asian martial arts at the time and Lee made some great movies and captured the imagination of a large portion of the world. The reality is merely 1/1000 of the legend. Shamrock and Gracie would have destroyed and humiliated Lee based on skill along never mind size and strength.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

Lee did a lot of things first, or got credited for them. He started protein shakes by blending raw steaks, he was the first guy to walk around with shredded abs thus changing the body building world, he has the first arm bar on screen (old movie), as well as a lot more.

But these things don't make a great fighter in the cage. He was a great action star and may have made UFC 1 more high profile, but chances are he would have lost.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Any single one of those fighters would've stopped him in under a minute.


Pat Smith or Gerard Gordeau vs Lee would be comical.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

There is nothing which makes me believe Bruce wouldn't have dominated his division!

If Lenorad Garcia can make a living there.. then Bruce would hold multible titles!


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Leonard Garcia would have whooped Bruce Lee's ass Bobby.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Well, here's the big difference.

Leonard Garcia is a mixed martial artist. Bruce Lee is a fraud martial artist.

Pretty convincing to me.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Leonard Garcia would have whooped Bruce Lee's ass Bobby.


No way!!!

Bruce knew how to kick.. that already makes him far superior!


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Lee is basically the historical equivalent of Kimbo Slice.

Except Kimbo actually had the balls to compete in competition.

The only real difference is that Lee had a background in tradiitonal martial arts(which Westerners go ga-ga over and Kimbo trained in boxing(ho hum).



The only person I can think of who is equally overrated based on nothing but anecdotes and fabrications is Rickson Gracie.

The man who went 400-0 in competition in every grappling form on the planet.

The man who supposedly submitted 1000 straight opponents in his dojo in one day. :sarcastic12:


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Lee is basically the historical equivalent of Kimbo Slice.
> 
> Except Kimbo actually had the balls to compete in competition.
> 
> The only real difference is that Lee had a background in tradiitonal martial arts(which Westerners go ga-ga over and Kimbo trained in boxing(ho hum).


You just showed that you know absolutely nada about Bruce. 

First of you need to inform yourself then you can talk about it.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> There is nothing which makes me believe Bruce wouldn't have dominated his division!
> 
> If Lenorad Garcia can make a living there.. then Bruce would hold multible titles!



If Bruce Lee was alive he wouldn't be any better than Cao Uno. Best case scenario he'd be similar to BJ penn. Which is a great accomplishment but not this unstoppable mythical force some are suggesting.




> Lee is basically the historical equivalent of Kimbo Slice.
> 
> Except Kimbo actually had the balls to compete in competition.
> 
> ...


This guy speaks the truth +REP


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

vilify said:


> If Bruce Lee was alive he wouldn't be any better than Cao Uno. Best case scenario he'd be similar to BJ penn. Which is a great accomplishment but not this unstoppable mythical force some are suggesting.


If he were BJ Penn that would be much more than I would have given him credit for. BJ would have destroyed him on the ground!

Bruce showed how incredible of a standup fighter he would have been. So fast so accurate!

He had an incredible wide arsenal in his striking alone. 

He of course would needed a little more ground training, but there is absoutely nothing which makes me believe that he wouldn't have been a force to be reckon with guys.

Lenoard Garcie can make a living in this Sport is all I am saying to this topic.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> If he were BJ Penn that would be much more than I would have given him credit for. BJ would have destroyed him on the ground!
> 
> Bruce showed how incredible of a standup fighter he would have been. So fast so accurate!
> 
> ...


The comparison to BJ is me being very generous. Realistically Bruce would probably be a C level "can" like the ones you see fighting at smaller shows in Japan. They have all these belts and accolades but they cant hang with the big boys.

Its one thing to practice and talk about fighting but its an entirely different thing to actually fight.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

vilify said:


> The comparison to BJ is me being very generous. Realistically Bruce would probably be a C level "can" like the ones you see fighting at smaller shows in Japan. They have all these belts and accolades but they cant hang with the big boys.
> 
> Its one thing to practice and talk about fighting but its an entirely different thing to actually fight.


Everyone has to start someday.

You guys are so blinded by this Movie career that you can not appreciate anymore how incredible talented on how a freak of nature this guy was.

His athleticsm was out of this World!!! He could bulk so much weight for a 130lbs guy.. 


His speed his striking and kicking.. his entire striking arsenal was incredible. 


Now, his ground is the only and would probably be his Achilles tendon I agree!


Like I said, if guys like Nam Phan.. Korean Zombie and Leonard Garcia can be Gatekeeps TODAY!!!

Then Bruce would have killed fools left and right!


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Lee never fought in competition ever

Tony Jaa's demo fighting looks amazing too, but that because its just that, it is for show.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Lee never fought in competition forever.
> 
> Tony Jaa's demo fighting looks too, buy that because its just that, it is for show.


Bruce Lee was a TRUE Martial Artist! He invented his own Martial Art which is being used TODAY by fighters all over the World even UFC athlets still.


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## Zenhalo (Sep 9, 2006)

Always been fan of drunken style.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> Bruce Lee was a TRUE Martial Artist! He invented his own Martial Art which is being used TODAY by fighters all over the World even UFC athlets still.


I invented my own martial arts too and its being used by several people in my neighborhood. I will upload some youtube videos later as proof of how great I'd do in MMA. :sarcastic12:


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Bruce would've crushed that entire tournament IMO. Including Gracie. The reason Gracie won that tournament was because of the surprise element of his BJJ. Bruce was trained in JiuJitsu, which, although quite different still from BJJ, would've still given him enough of a heads up to not get submitted or probably even taken down IMO.

P.S.: Check the beginning of Enter the Dragon (I think it's that one >_>), Bruce definitely armbars a dude. He definitely had knowledge of JJ before it was the new karate in town lol



BobbyCooper said:


> Bruce Lee was a TRUE Martial Artist! He invented his own Martial Art which is being used TODAY by fighters all over the World even UFC athlets still.


What he invented wasn't a martial art but a philosophy on the way Martial Arts should be done. He never really invented any of the moves. He refined them, honed them and brought things from different styles into a singular style though, but that was the philosophy. That was important part.


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

TraMaI said:


> Bruce would've crushed that entire tournament IMO. Including Gracie. The reason Gracie won that tournament was because of the surprise element of his BJJ. Bruce was trained in JiuJitsu, which, although quite different still from BJJ, would've still given him enough of a heads up to not get submitted or probably even taken down IMO.
> 
> P.S.: Check the beginning of Enter the Dragon (I think it's that one >_>), Bruce definitely armbars a dude. He definitely had knowledge of JJ before it was the new karate in town lol.


In this video he applies a pretty decent arm triangle. That tells me he most definitely had some knowledge of grappling, or at least someone doing the fight scenes did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsSoX6qB9N0 

Does that mean I've changed my opinion that he would get whipped? Nope. I think your viewpoint is naive and I say that with all due respect. 

Having a basic knowledge of BJJ and grappling - heck, having years of experience - isn't going to help you much against a Gracie in his prime. I've been training jiu jitsu for about a year now, have competed and won in local and international tournaments and all of that jazz. Am I even in the same league as my instructor? Not. Even. Close. In the same way Bruce would get taken down and submitted by a guy who's spent his entire life training BJJ. 

Hearing people say that they think Bruce would win the tournament really leaves me scratching my head and thinking I'm in crazy world. I'm not a Bruce hater either - I just live in reality, lol.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

I don't think that Bruce fought enough in these type of competitions/fights to be competitive. His record is mainly legend at best - and there is no record of any great ground battles that I have found - all the documented fights were essentially settled on the feet (if an opponent went to the ground, he was struck, not submitted. 

Was he talented, sure, but I think the wrestling/ground aspect of his style was greatly neglected. There is a story of Gene Labell putting him a headlock, picking him up and walking around with him. As the story goes, all Bruce could do was yell at him to put him down. But again, it may be revisionist history by Gene. 

This is pure conjecture on my part, but I get the feeling that in Bruce's day, fighting on the ground was frowned upon. Fights remained on the feet. There is still a large portion of society today that feels that way (whether it is the most effective or not - you shouldn't roll around on the ground).

My take: Bruce is more myth than reality. I'll take a seasoned fighter with ground skills who fights on a regular basis against top quality opponents over Bruce Lee.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

vilify said:


> I invented my own martial arts too and its being used by several people in my neighborhood. I will upload some youtube videos later as proof of how great I'd do in MMA. :sarcastic12:


seriously? :confused05: No arguments anymore?



TraMaI said:


> Bruce would've crushed that entire tournament IMO. Including Gracie. The reason Gracie won that tournament was because of the surprise element of his BJJ. Bruce was trained in JiuJitsu, which, although quite different still from BJJ, would've still given him enough of a heads up to not get submitted or probably even taken down IMO.
> 
> P.S.: Check the beginning of Enter the Dragon (I think it's that one >_>), Bruce definitely armbars a dude. He definitely had knowledge of JJ before it was the new karate in town lol
> 
> ...


Yep, thats right Tra :thumbsup: 

Nobody says he would have won the UFC 1 Tournement here, thats ridiculous to believe.

Bruce was small Bantamweight. 

Also nobody makes the claim that Bruce was some specialist on the ground either. He certainly knew something about it like you pointed out. There is so much more proof about this out there.


All I am trying to say to the Haters is, that Bruce Lee was a freak of nature, yes it would still be called freak of nature today. I mean look at him back in the day! He's the Brock Lesnar of the Bantamweight division. Something you only see ones or twice in a century. 

His speed, his power and strenght, his athletism his knowledge about Jeet kun do would still be unmatched even today. 

He was a freak and freaks do well in Sports cause there aren't many. All this combined makes him far superior then what we see these days in the Bantamweight division.

Would a Black Belt have subbed him in under 2? Most likely yes.. that doesn't stop him from learning the ground game.


Hence we are back to my original statement. If Lenoardo Garcia can make a living in this Sport, Bruce Lee could too and much, much more!


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

Calibretto9 said:


> In this video he applies a pretty decent arm triangle. That tells me he most definitely had some knowledge of grappling, or at least someone doing the fight scenes did.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsSoX6qB9N0
> 
> Does that mean I've changed my opinion that he would get whipped? Nope. I think your viewpoint is naive and I say that with all due respect.
> ...


true but graice wasnt really that great in BJJ, he had trouble submitting many guys who thought bjj was some type of new and improved sexual position

bruce lee would know how to defend himself pretty well, add his speed and power and probably some good scrambles and you have a whole different animal that gracie would be facing at the time

they picked him because he was the smallest one but he was far from being a top black belt, if he were to face maia back in the day (maia of today) he would have been schooled in less than a minute

do i think bruce lee would win? probably not, but he would do well, and had the potential to win IMO


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> Bruce Lee was a TRUE Martial Artist! He invented his own Martial Art which is being used TODAY by fighters all over the World even UFC athlets still.


So did Helios Gracie, though BJJ is actually viable in MMA and Vale Tudo competition, unlike JKD.

That said, no one is deluded enough to think a prime Helios could even beat his own offspring in Vale Tudo, let alone other great fighters.




Mr. Sparkle said:


> I don't think that Bruce fought enough in these type of competitions/fights to be competitive. His record is mainly legend at best - and there is no record of any great ground battles that I have found - all the documented fights were essentially settled on the feet (if an opponent went to the ground, he was struck, not submitted.
> 
> Was he talented, sure, but I think the wrestling/ground aspect of his style was greatly neglected. There is a story of Gene Labell putting him a headlock, picking him up and walking around with him. As the story goes, all Bruce could do was yell at him to put him down. *But again, it may be revisionist history by Gene.
> *
> ...


Anything regarding Lee is revisionist history, because the man didn't ****ing fight. Dude got into a few Kimbo Slice style street fights and basically that is supposed to mean he was the greatest little shit to ever step on the planet.

The ground fighting to be honest, is a complete moot point, because guys like Gerard Gordeau and Pat Smith would've beaten the absolute dog shit out of Lee, and if you think otherwise you are a fool.




BobbyCooper said:


> seriously? :confused05: No arguments anymore?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you are saying that Bruce Lee would've been brutalized in the situation that the topic presents.

But, if a young Bruce Lee fought now and cross-trained as an actual MMA fighter and fought at the 135lb weight class, that he could potentially be great?

Well at least we finally agree on something.




ACTAFOOL said:


> true but graice wasnt really that great in BJJ, he had trouble submitting many guys who thought bjj was some type of new and improved sexual position
> 
> bruce lee would know how to defend himself pretty well, add his speed and power and probably some good scrambles and you have a whole different animal that gracie would be facing at the time
> 
> ...


Uh, no. Royce was pretty damn good at BJJ. I'm also not sure what events you were watching. Royce pretty much subbed every one within 5 minutes in the UFC's. Even Ken Shamrock the first time, who had extensive grappling experience, and was leglocking people in MMA competition before Royce was.

The only reason Royce struggled with him the second time was because Ken was a huge hulking giant and an experience grappler in his own right, and after the fight basically trained his ass off to exclusively negate Royce.

The other guy he struggled with, but still submitted with Dan Severn, a huge hulking athlete whom is a legendary wrestler and had trained in Greco-Roman, Folkstyle wrestling and Judo grappling systems. All that while giving up 80lbs in weight against another legendary grappler is amazing. Not to mention Severn had dabbled in Japanese Jiu Jitsu as well as Judo, which is BJJ's parent. So according to the wonderful logic on this forum, he had all he needed to avoid subs(until he didn't)!


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> So did Helios Gracie, though BJJ is actually viable in MMA and Vale Tudo competition, unlike JKD.
> 
> That said, no one is deluded enough to think a prime Helios could even beat his own offspring in Vale Tudo, let alone other great fighters.
> 
> ...


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> So did Helios Gracie, though BJJ is actually viable in MMA and Vale Tudo competition, unlike JKD.
> 
> That said, no one is deluded enough to think a prime Helios could even beat his own offspring in Vale Tudo, let alone other great fighters.
> 
> ...


Hmm...I was merely stating that the lack of ground fighting would be his most obvious flaw. I think I stated pretty clearly that he didn't fight enough, and the ones that were document were suspect at best. 

My revisionist comment was aimed a Labell, as I am sure that many people claimed to have fought Lee and painted themselves in a good light. My Hung Fut teacher from years ago claims to have called him out and Bruce refused to fight him. Yeah, whatever. 

Really, my deep down true feeling - If Bruce Lee was the best fighter in the world then Elvis was the best guitarist.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Squirrelfighter said:


>


Please tell Santa to take me off his naughty list while you are at it. :laugh:




Mr. Sparkle said:


> Hmm...I was merely stating that the lack of ground fighting would be his most obvious flaw. I think I stated pretty clearly that he didn't fight enough, and the ones that were document were suspect at best.
> 
> My revisionist comment was aimed a Labell, as I am sure that many people claimed to have fought Lee and painted themselves in a good light. My Hung Fut teacher from years ago claims to have called him out and Bruce refused to fight him. Yeah, whatever.
> 
> Really, my deep down true feeling - If Bruce Lee was the best fighter in the world then Elvis was the best guitarist.


I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with anything you were stating. I was just saying.

As far as Lebell goes, I don't doubt the story at all.

I'm just surprised it wasn't rebutted by some ridiculous story about Lee getting angry and then one inch finger poking LeBell in the armpit and causing him to go into a temporary comatose state.

Judo Gene is twice the legitimate badass Lee could ever hope to be, it's just to bad he didn't have a bunch of flashy moves, and special effects on the big screen to validate it. :confused05:


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Please tell Santa to take me off his naughty list while you are at it. :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


NP...just hard to gauge peoples responses sometime on message boards.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> If he were BJ Penn that would be much more than I would have given him credit for. BJ would have destroyed him on the ground!


 BJ would have destroyed him well ever the hell BJ decided he felt like it. 



> Bruce showed how incredible of a standup fighter he would have been. So fast so accurate!
> 
> He had an incredible wide arsenal in his striking alone.


 And why do none of the best fighters in the world even remotely resemble Lee style wise? Because that shit looks great in the movies but real life is a different ball game. 



> He of course would needed a little more ground training, but there is absoutely nothing which makes me believe that he wouldn't have been a force to be reckon with guys.
> 
> Lenoard Garcie can make a living in this Sport is all I am saying to this topic.


Based on what? His style does not work, fighters all of the world do not use his style because in a real fight application his shit stinks. Forget the ground game the best kick boxers in the world do not use his style. 

Leonard Garcia may not look good in the movies but his sloppy brawling has proven more effective in a true battle tested environment than all Lee's flash.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

_"A man with one year training in boxing and wrestling can beat any (traditional) martial artist with 15 years of experience"_ that quote is credited to Bruce Lee. That shows that Lee was not 20 years ahead of his time, not 30, but rather 40 years, because that's what evolution of MMA shows us today.

Has any of the critics read at least his Tao of JKD¿ Then you would know that he basically single handedly invented MMA with his JKD in a time when the different martial arts styles encapsulated themselves from other styles and where products of inbreed. 

There are no JKD practitioners in MMA¿ JKD is not a style like BJJ or Boxing with self limitations, it's not a collection of techniques, it's more than that, it's a philosophy, it's an approach to fighting, it's an *open* system. MMA basically _is_ JKD (not quite, as MMA is focussed on being a sport, while JKD on fighting in general, but they are close). JKD is about mixing the different aspects of fighting and finding out what personally serves you most to be successful.

How would he have done in todays MMA¿ I don't know. If he was brought here with a time machine right from the 60s/70s and his knowledge of that time and he right jumped into competition, he probably would have a hard time, because today's fighters have so much more opportunities/access to have cross training of different styles than he had - but what you can be sure of is that in contrast to a lot of today's fighters he would use all these oppotunities to improve in every aspect of his fighting game.

That he was a freak athlete with incredible skills is acknowledged by recognized competitive martial artists like Chuck Norris, Gene LeBell, Bob Wall, Joe Lewis, Dan Inosanto (rather real fight/weapon oriented) and Muhammad Ali.

But as I've written in another thread: "Bruce Lee's worth wasn't primarily his physical abilities (which according to people who met him were extraordinary, so he might have done well in MMA), but is his reasoning approach to martial arts. He was revolutionary in opening, mixing up martial arts and getting rid of things that didn't work in a martial arts environment/period where most of the traditional stuff was closed door inbreed with lost bonds to reality.

The legacy of his knowledge and his theories is incomparable bigger than any championship in a competition he may have won ever could be. Unfortunately he is dead now, so the question on how well he would do in MMA today cannot be answered and doesn't matter really. Reducing him to that question is really discrediting his achievements."


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

He is too small to have made any impact on the outcome of UFC1.

Bruce Lee wasnt a fully legitimate combat athlete more of a philosopher of dicisplines and student of the ARTS.

Not here to hate , just as TOXIC points to his Wing Chun style isnt effective because its more of "flashy" Demonstration type thing , rather than an effective style.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Toxic said:


> BJ would have destroyed him well ever the hell BJ decided he felt like it.
> 
> And why do none of the best fighters in the world even remotely resemble Lee style wise? Because that shit looks great in the movies but real life is a different ball game.
> 
> ...


Toxic, read this one here please. I wrote that earlier.

He was a Freak Toxic. It's something which normally isn't there. 

You have to look at how he did at the heavy bag. His kicks where lethal and his punches looked great. He could throw them from every angle.

Bruce was a great stand up fighter!

He would have murdered Lenorad Garcia with his speed alone!



> Nobody says he would have won the UFC 1 Tournement here, thats ridiculous to believe.
> 
> Bruce was small Bantamweight.
> 
> ...



All I am saying is Toxic, that Bruce Lee would have been able to beat todays fighters. I told you that BJ would sub him in under two minutes most likely.. but Bruce would never have stopped learning which would have closed that gap just like that!


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Toxic said:


> And why do none of the best fighters in the world even remotely resemble Lee style wise? Because that shit looks great in the movies but real life is a different ball game.
> 
> Based on what? His style does not work, fighters all of the world do not use his style because in a real fight application his shit stinks. Forget the ground game the best kick boxers in the world do not use his style.
> 
> Leonard Garcia may not look good in the movies but his sloppy brawling has proven more effective in a true battle tested environment than all Lee's flash.


Um, you know that Lee himself stated that the flashy stuff in his movies is mainly flashy stuff for the movies and that his real fighting approach was much different¿ Don't make the mistake to confound his movies with his real fighting. If it does interest you, try to get a copy of his Tao of JKD. There he explains that to become a complete fighter you have to master all different ranges of fighting, from kicking over take downs to ground fighting.

And btw. the likes of Anderson Silva and Jon Jones don't do that bad with their flash


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Voiceless said:


> _"A man with one year training in boxing and wrestling can beat any (traditional) martial artist with 15 years of experience"_ that quote is credited to Bruce Lee. That shows that Lee was not 20 years ahead of his time, not 30, but rather 40 years, because that's what evolution of MMA shows us today.
> 
> Has any of the critics read at least his Tao of JKD¿ Then you would know that he basically single handedly invented MMA with his JKD in a time when the different martial arts styles encapsulated themselves from other styles and where products of inbreed.
> 
> ...


Finally someone gets it. +rep sir.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Voiceless said:


> Um, you know that Lee himself stated that the flashy stuff in his movies is mainly flashy stuff for the movies and that his real fighting approach was much different¿ Don't make the mistake to confound his movies with his real fighting. If it does interest you, try to get a copy of his Tao of JKD. There he explains that to become a complete fighter you have to master all different ranges of fighting, from kicking over take downs to ground fighting.
> 
> And btw. the likes of Anderson Silva and Jon Jones don't do that bad with their flash


But the point is, he never did fight.

So all of his philosophy is pretty much useless.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> But the point is, he never did fight.
> 
> So all of his philosophy is pretty much useless.


So all those years of Training every day mean nada.. 

I guess you don't quite understand how fighting works :confused02: do you?


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> So all those years of Training every day mean nada..
> 
> I guess you don't quite understand how fighting works :confused02: do you?



Yeah. It means nothing because he wasn't cross-training effectively in order to be a mixed martial artist.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

To the dickheads disrespecting Bruce Lee on here, you have to remember that he was around in the 60's and 70's, MMA hadnt even been thought of in a profesional sense yet, he was light years ahead of pretty much everyone on the planet at that time and easily p4p the best fighter in the world. There was nobody doing what he was doing then, he was trying to master almost every style in world before Helio even mastered his own. 

He died in 73' and BJJ wasnt even that known, their must of only been around a handful of people that actually even knew about it, so to say he would of got subbed easily in 94' is a bit silly, because who knows he could of easily been a blackbelt at it if he was around then. In the 60's there wasnt even a scene for MMA at all, and the fact that he was a mixed martial artist just proves the levels he was above everyone else.

EDIT: just realised my first post in this thread was my *1973* post, the year he died. spooky eh?


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> It means nothing because he wasn't cross-training effectively


He was. He basically trained with every martial artist he could grasp. That's part of his philosophy. His training ethic was never questioned by anyone who ever met him and there are some big martial arts names from his time from all different kind of styles.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

DJ Syko said:


> To the dickheads disrespecting Bruce Lee on here, you have to remember that he was around in the 60's and 70's, MMA hadnt even been thought of in a profesional sense yet, he was light years ahead of pretty much everyone on the planet at that time and easily p4p the best fighter in the world. There was nobody doing what he was doing then, he was trying to master almost every style in world before Helio even mastered his own.
> 
> He died in 73' and BJJ wasnt even that known, their must of only been around a handful of people that actually even knew about it, so to say he would of got subbed easily in 94' is a bit silly, because who knows he could of easily been a blackbelt at it if he was around then. In the 60's there wasnt even a scene for MMA at all, and the fact that he was a mixed martial artist just proves the levels he was above everyone else.
> 
> EDIT: just realised my first post in this thread was my *1973* post, the year he died. spooky eh?


No he wasn't.

If he was the best fighter in the world he would've been fighting, not doing kung fu movies.




Voiceless said:


> He was. He basically trained with every martial artist he could grasp. That's part of his philosophy. His training ethic was never questioned by anyone who ever met him and there are some big martial arts names from his time from all different kind of styles.



Dabbling in some art forms while doing kung fu movies is hardly the equivalent for dedicating your life to cross-training as a livelihood.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> No he wasn't.
> 
> If he was the best fighter in the world he would've been fighting, not doing kung fu movies.
> 
> ...


Fighting who exactly? random people on the street? like i said there wasnt anything around those days like MMA, he wanted to show the world his skills not fight in backstreet illegal fight scenes or whatever where he would never of got noticed at all.

So who was the p4p best fighter in the 1960's, just wondering?


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

DJ Syko said:


> Fighting who exactly? random people on the street? like i said there wasnt anything around those days like MMA, he wanted to show the world his skills not fight in backstreet illegal fight scenes or whatever where he would never of got noticed at all.
> 
> So who was the p4p best fighter in the 1960's, just wondering?


No, that's what Bruce Lee did.

REAL martial artists entered various tournaments, or sometimes fought in boxing or kickboxing leagues.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> No, that's what Bruce Lee did.
> 
> REAL martial artists entered various tournaments, or sometimes fought in boxing or kickboxing leagues.


Anderson Silva is arguably the p4p best on the planet, but he is not the best boxer, Kickboxer, wrestler or Juijitsu guy in the world is he? That argument is weak.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

DJ Syko said:


> Anderson Silva is arguably the p4p best on the planet, but he is not the best boxer, Kickboxer, wrestler or Juijitsu guy in the world is he? That argument is weak.


Anderson is the best MMArtist.

Bruce Lee was not a MMArtist.

I fail to see the logical string.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> No he wasn't.
> 
> If he was the best fighter in the world he would've been fighting, not doing kung fu movies.
> 
> Dabbling in some art forms while doing kung fu movies is hardly the equivalent for dedicating your life to cross-training as a livelihood.





Roflcopter said:


> No, that's what Bruce Lee did.
> 
> REAL martial artists entered various tournaments, or sometimes fought in boxing or kickboxing leagues.





Roflcopter said:


> Anderson is the best MMArtist.
> 
> Bruce Lee was not a MMArtist.
> 
> I fail to see the logical string.


You have obviously never read the Tao of Jeet Kun Do, and have no idea what you're talking about. Its essential a How To for basic MMA. It was written by Lee while lying in bed recovering from a back injury. And its Lee's personal experience and thoughts on Martial Arts as a whole. 

Its Boxing, Jui Jitsu, Kickboxing, Weightlifting. There's almost NOTHING relating to any traditional Martial Arts in the Tao. Its everything that was all new ideas since UFC 1. The reason they were "new" was because almost no one had read the book on MMA.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

DJ Syko said:


> To the dickheads disrespecting Bruce Lee on here, you have to remember that he was around in the 60's and 70's, MMA hadnt even been thought of in a profesional sense yet, he was light years ahead of pretty much everyone on the planet at that time and easily p4p the best fighter in the world. There was nobody doing what he was doing then, he was trying to master almost every style in world before Helio even mastered his own.
> 
> He died in 73' and BJJ wasnt even that known, their must of only been around a handful of people that actually even knew about it, so to say he would of got subbed easily in 94' is a bit silly, because who knows he could of easily been a blackbelt at it if he was around then. In the 60's there wasnt even a scene for MMA at all, and the fact that he was a mixed martial artist just proves the levels he was above everyone else.
> 
> EDIT: just realised my first post in this thread was my *1973* post, the year he died. spooky eh?


K...I read majority of the posts here leading up to this. The above poster makes a good point. One that I wanted to emphasize.

I said that Royce may have submitted em, but he would train fanatically and come back to avenge his loss. He may or may not have won against the likes of Shamrock, Vitor, or even Tank because they're huge. But we're talking different time periods here. You can never compare the Model T-Ford vs a Cadillac. It simply doesn't compute. But one can say that the Cadillac may not have existed if it hadn't been for the Model T-Ford. 

Anyhow lets fast forward to the present. Bruce Lee would have wrecked shop because he has far more disciplines than any other martial artists alive. His conditioning/physique in 1970's was already considered in the 100th percentile. People are comparing him to the present fighters. What you should be comparing is if Bruce had the same exact training and sparring partners available today how would he do. As a student master he would grasp new techniques instantaneously. He studied philosphy in UDUB. He had a very powerful mind at work. His mental game and physique was second to none. Only Anderson Silva has that along with Fedor. Not even GSP, JBJ, or BJ posess that mental toughness and acuity. 

He would bring something that none of us would have seen before in a real life setting. He trained Chuck Norris and he's admitted that he was his superior and consquently went on to win Karate Championships. Even if he didn't fight "imagine" all the knowledge he could pass on to the likes of Machida and Anderson Silva. Priceless. 

Think about all he accomplished in the span of his 33 years.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> Toxic, read this one here please. I wrote that earlier.
> 
> He was a Freak Toxic. It's something which normally isn't there.
> 
> ...


Bobby the physical feats are CRAP, they are make believe like leprechauns and unicorns. Bobby do you realize how insane some of them all. There is one about him holding 125 pound dumbell straight out from his chestwhile standing straight up . You know why its funny? Lets make believe for a second that a logical person is gonna believe this is possible. Problem being anyone with a basic understanding of leverage understands he would fall flat on his face as his center of gravity would be way off center making it impossible. Even if we were gonna play make believe and say he was strong enough he wasn't heavy enough.


Or there is the 75 pound one handed dumbell which oddly enough many professional weight lifters with over 80 pounds on Lee can not do. How does a logical person believe that?

The one inch punch that was never accurately recorded and not a single person has ever been able to even remotely come close to replicating. 

Bobby you need to remember that Lee's myth lived in a time when people were still in awe of traditional martial arts and were willing to seemingly accept that a ninja could some how catch bullets with his teeth and people still thought some 70 year old monk was gonna climb down from a mountain in Tibet and lay a beat down on everybody. It was a different time and people were not as educated about these things which made them much more foolish about them but in this day an age people need to see these flat out fabrications for what they really are.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Some interesting facts from good ol Wiki. To all the detractors. The man knows how to fight. Had he learned the modernized disciplines and rules he would have applied it effectively and efficiently. If he's tooling boxers and karate practitioners, then it really shows his skill set in that time period. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee

*Fight history*

Lee was involved in competitive fights, some of which were arranged while others were not. Dan Inosanto stated, "There's no doubt in my mind that if Bruce Lee had gone into pro boxing, he could easily have ranked in the top three in the lightweight division or junior-welterweight division".[38]

Lee defeated three-time champion British boxer Gary Elms by way of knockout in the third round in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships by using Wing Chun traps and high/low-level straight punches.[39]

The following year, Lee became a member of the "Tigers of Junction Street," and was involved in numerous gang-related street fights. "In one of his last encounters, while removing his jacket the fellow he was squaring off against sucker punched him and blackened his eye. Bruce flew into a rage and went after him, knocking him out, breaking his opponent's arm. The police were called as a result".[40] The incident took place on a Hong Kong rooftop at 10 pm on Wednesday, 29 April 1959.[41]

In 1962, Lee knocked out Uechi, a Japanese black belt Karateka, in 11 seconds in a 1962 Full-Contact match in Seattle. It was refereed by Jesse Glover. The incident took place in Seattle at a YMCA handball court. Taki Kamura says the battle lasted 10 seconds in contrary to Hart's statement.[42] Ed Hart states "The karate man arrived in his gi (uniform), complete with black belt, while Bruce showed up in his street clothes and simply took off his shoes. The fight lasted exactly 11 seconds – I know because I was the time keeper – and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him".[43]

In Oakland, California in 1964 at Chinatown, Lee had a controversial private match with Wong Jack Man, a direct student of Ma Kin Fung known for his mastery of Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and Tai chi chuan. According to Lee, the Chinese community issued an ultimatum to him to stop teaching non-Chinese; when he refused to comply he was challenged to a combat match with Wong, the arrangement being that if Lee lost he would have to shut down his school while if he won then Lee would be free to teach Caucasians or anyone else.[40] Wong denies this, stating that he requested to fight Lee after Lee issued an open challenge during one of Lee's demonstrations at a Chinatown theatre, and that Wong himself did not discriminate against Caucasians or other non-Chinese.[44] Lee commented, "That paper had all the names of the sifu from Chinatown, but they don't scare me".[45]

Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation) and William Chen, a teacher of Tai chi chuan. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes.[44] According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Bruce. "The fight ensued, it was a no holds barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up". — Linda Lee Cadwell[40]

Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch.[44] Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians.

Lee's eventual celebrity put him in the path of a number of men who sought to make a name for themselves by causing a confrontation with Lee. A challenger had invaded Lee's private home in Hong Kong by trespassing into the backyard to incite Lee in combat. Lee finished the challenger violently with a kick, infuriated over the home invasion. Describing the incident, Herb Jackson states,

One time one fellow got over that wall, got into his yard and challenged him and he says 'how good are you?' And Bruce was poppin mad. He [Bruce] says 'he gets the idea, this guy, to come and invade my home, my own private home, invade it and challenge me.' He said he got so mad that he gave the hardest kick he ever gave anyone in his life.[46]
Bob Wall, USPK karate champion and Lee's co-star in Enter the Dragon, recalled one encounter that transpired after a film extra kept taunting Lee. The extra yelled that Lee was "a movie star, not a martial artist," that he "wasn't much of a fighter". Lee answered his taunts by asking him to jump down from the wall he was sitting on. Wall described Lee's opponent as "a gang-banger type of guy from Hong Kong," a "damned good martial artist," and observed that he was fast, strong, and bigger than Bruce.[47]

This kid was good. He was strong and fast, and he was really trying to punch Bruce's brains in. But Bruce just methodically took him apart.[48] Bruce kept moving so well, this kid couldn't touch him...then all of a sudden, Bruce got him and rammed his ass with the wall and swept him up, proceeding to drop him and plant his knee into his opponent's chest, locked his arm out straight, and nailed him in the face repeatedly". — Bob Wall[49]


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Squirrelfighter said:


> You have obviously never read the Tao of Jeet Kun Do, and have no idea what you're talking about. Its essential a How To for basic MMA. It was written by Lee while lying in bed recovering from a back injury. And its Lee's personal experience and thoughts on Martial Arts as a whole.
> 
> Its Boxing, Jui Jitsu, Kickboxing, Weightlifting. There's almost NOTHING relating to any traditional Martial Arts in the Tao. Its everything that was all new ideas since UFC 1. The reason they were "new" was because almost no one had read the book on MMA.


As I said earlier the concept Bruce had may relate to what modern mma is but what he actually came up with and practiced is something vastly different. Mona Lisa's kid may have drawn a stick figure of her but its not famous like Da Vinci's portrait of her. One is a work of art the other crap.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Toxic said:


> As I said earlier the concept Bruce had may relate to what modern mma is but what he actually came up with and practiced is something vastly different. Mona Lisa's kid may have drawn a stick figure of her but its not famous like Da Vinci's portrait of her. One is a work of art the other crap.


Totally different concepts. In the Tao it details the exact concepts used to teach MMA today. Its the first EVER recorded instance of the phrase "Use what works, ignore what doesn't."

There's little or no evidence Lee had any influence in the creation of MMA as a sport. But there's no refuting that the Tao is the first ever How To for MMA, whether it was deliberately written to be such is rather immaterial.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Squirrelfighter said:


> Totally different concepts. In the Tao it details the exact concepts used to teach MMA today. Its the first EVER recorded instance of the phrase "Use what works, ignore what doesn't."
> 
> There's little or no evidence Lee had any influence in the creation of MMA as a sport. But there's no refuting that the Tao is the first ever How To for MMA, whether it was deliberately written to be such is rather immaterial.


Use what works, ignore what doesn't. We are really giving somebody all this credit over something that simple?.

As I said regardless of Lee's philosophy what he actually practiced would have failed. When people were trying to design the first flying machines the wright brothers were not the first to put wings on one of there flying machines but we pay them homage not who ever the hell was the first. Somebody else may have dreamt it up but they never made it work so it doesn't matter.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

No_Mercy said:


> Some interesting facts from good ol Wiki. To all the detractors. The man knows how to fight. Had he learned the modernized disciplines and rules he would have applied it effectively and efficiently. If he's tooling boxers and karate practitioners, then it really shows his skill set in that time period.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee
> 
> ...


This wiki entry proves nothing. It is basically hearsay. We have no idea who his opponents were or how good they were (unless we want to go back to believing that a black belt somehow makes you a good fighter). 

Bruce Lee did not fight competitively against know opponents (with verifiable records) so all these victories are very subjective in actually assessing his ability. So, how people can look at this and come to the conclusion that he was a truly great fighter is beyond me. 

Bruce may have know a lot about fighting, but that, in and of itself, does not make him a great fighter. One of the greatest coaches in the history of the NHL couldn't even skate. 

So, I think the detractors are actually being a lot more analytical about it and not trying to mold facts to fit pre-conceived conclusions. We are looking at the facts and drawing our conclusions from them.

Also: I have found no data on Elms at boxrec.com, which is probably the largest and best boxing database in the world. Elms was probably an amateur fighter or never existed:

"According to the The Bruce Lee Timeline "1958 (Age 18): ??? - Bruce enters the 1958 Boxing Championships and defeats the reigning three year champion, Gary Elms." Yet there is no record of a 3 year champion named Gary Elms. Furthermore a Google search of Gary Elms only brings up Bruce Lee fan sites that mention the fight. A Wikipedia search also brings no information."


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

MagiK11 said:


> Wow, I had no clue he studied in so many disciplines and I love Bruce Lee. Still remember him saying how he believed you needed to know multiple disciplines to be a complete fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was about to say the same thing. Since he joined on 2010 I don't think there have been many threads made on the subject since then at least from what I've noticed. Never been a fan of "dude do a search" policing anyway, that's what we have mods for.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Huh? Thats what we have mods for? Not to come accross like a dick but the staff here is not paid, This all volunteer stuff so making it sound like oh they can just deal with it, I find extremely disrespectful.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Use what works, ignore what doesn't. We are really giving somebody all this credit over something that simple?.


Yep. Because the rest of the (martial arts) world was ignoring that fact. Only because an approach is simple doesn't mean it's not revolutionary, on the contrary - simplifying is the highest art of science. Pythagoras' theorem is something absolutely obvious, but he was the first in the Western world to write about it, moving letters for printing are an absolutely logical idea for printing, but before Gutenberg nobody thought about it, in school as a kid I myself came up with an arithmetic sequence which is widely known as Gauss' arithmetic sequence, when you know it it's absolutely simple, but before Gauss nobody had that idea.

Lee wrote down, trained and tought what was quite unthinkable at his time: mixing up martial arts. He "preached" that to become a complete martial artist you have to master all fighting distances, be it kicking, boxing, take downs or grappling/groundfighting. Practically every other martial arts (including Western styles as boxing or wrestling) only focussed on one aspect/fighting distance. He was practically the first to give martial arts a modern world sports science approach. What he wrote in his Tao of JKD became proven and accepted truth 30-40 years later. You will have a hard time finding other sources than his from before the time of the big take off of MMA that are so detailed, precise and accurate in discribing the art of fighting. 

Notable fighters as Chuck Norris (multiple professional fullcontact Karate champion and World Karate Union Hall of Famer), "Judo" Gene LeBell (AAU National Judo Champion), Ed Parker (the "father" of American Karate), Jhoon Rhee (the "father" of American Tae Kwon Do), Bob Wall (multiple US Karate champion), Joe Lewis (US and World Kickboxing champion) and Muhammad Ali (no explanation needed) give Lee credit for his skills, knowledge and accomplishments for the martial arts world.

...but I guess haters gonna hate.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Voiceless said:


> Yep. Because the rest of the (martial arts) world was ignoring that fact. Only because an approach is simple doesn't mean it's not revolutionary, on the contrary - simplifying is the highest art of science. Pythagoras' theorem is something absolutely obvious, but he was the first in the Western world to write about it, moving letters for printing are an absolutely logical idea for printing, but before Gutenberg nobody thought about it, in school as a kid I myself came up with an arithmetic sequence which is widely known as Gauss' arithmetic sequence, when you know it it's absolutely simple, but before Gauss nobody had that idea.
> 
> Lee wrote down, trained and tought what was quite unthinkable at his time: mixing up martial arts. He "preached" that to become a complete martial artist you have to master all fighting distances, be it kicking, boxing, take downs or grappling/groundfighting. Practically every other martial arts (including Western styles as boxing or wrestling) only focussed on one aspect/fighting distance. He was practically the first to give martial arts a modern world sports science approach. What he wrote in his Tao of JKD became proven and accepted truth 30-40 years later. You will have a hard time finding other sources than his from before the time of the big take off of MMA that are so detailed, precise and accurate in discribing the art of fighting.
> 
> ...


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Inspiration don't mean shit. Rocky probably inspired them to but I doubt anyone wanted to throw Sly into the octagon.



> Notable fighters as Chuck Norris (multiple professional fullcontact Karate champion and World Karate Union Hall of Famer), "Judo" Gene LeBell (AAU National Judo Champion), Ed Parker (the "father" of American Karate), Jhoon Rhee (the "father" of American Tae Kwon Do), Bob Wall (multiple US Karate champion), Joe Lewis (US and World Kickboxing champion) and Muhammad Ali (no explanation needed) give Lee credit for his skills, knowledge and accomplishments for the martial arts world.


 What he did accomplish in the martial arts world and what he could have accomplished in the mixed martial arts world are two completely different subjects, One does not translate to the other. He may have revelutionized traditional martial arts but the man is still 99% myth and the fact is he could not have competed against anybody relevant in MMA. 

And the whole use what works throw away what doesn't isn't new, its what Kano was trying to do when he came up with Judo over 100 years ago. Funny thing is Kano's "Judo" more closley resembles modern MMA than Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do.

The true fathers of MMA are guys like Suzuki, Funakai, Shamrock and Gracie.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> I mean look at him back in the day! He's the Brock Lesnar of the Bantamweight division. Something you only see ones or twice in a century.
> 
> His speed, his power and strenght, his athletism his knowledge about Jeet kun do would still be unmatched even today.
> 
> ...



Well said and true. If people actually took the time to read about his life and what those around him had to say, he was surely a freak of nature. People that are coming to their conclusions based on watching his movies are only seeing part of the picture. 

First of all the fights in his movies were purposely made fancy for audiences and slowed down, with techniques that looked good but were not really efficent. He has discussed this before in the past. The directors would constantly tell him he needed to slow down his punches in order for it to show better in camera.

Guys two times his size would constantly praise his strengh which was legendary for his weight. His speed was on another level, this much is known. His philosophy on fighting isn't much different from the concept of a mixed martial artist, and could be considered a pioneer. Do I believe he would have won UFC 1? Well first of all UFC 1 was filled with a bunch of frauds, and lots of "fighters" never really sparred. We now know that plenty of fighter's credentials were exaggerated, with some just being out right lies. UFC 1 was for the sole purpose of broadcasting BJJ superiority (only problem was it was against beyond cans).

To the person that said everyone in the tournment would beat Bruce Lee that is beyond ignorant. Gracie would certainly have a good chance if he could take it to the ground, and so would Shamrock.

I personally believe that he would be successful in MMA today. Why? Because he was a student of fighting arts and would have certainly modified and trained in things like BJJ and the like. Even if he didn't train in BJJ he would still be able to hold his own. There have been plenty of fighters TODAY that are only versed in striking and have had success.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Huh? Thats what we have mods for? Not to come accross like a dick but the staff here is not paid, This all volunteer stuff so making it sound like oh they can just deal with it, I find extremely disrespectful.


My point was that jumping on the OP for not using a search function is not his place, and if anyone is going to regulate what should and shouldn't be posted (or what has been posted a billion times) it'll be a mod. 

Yeah, most mods are volunteers so what's your point? Don't understand what I said that made you feel "disrespected". I'm sorry you are so senstive of being a mod.

Personally I could care less what you think, you come out as a smug, arrogant, knowitall. The way you speak to people can come across as "disrespectful". Don't feel appreciated as a MOD, cry me a river. It's quite laughable what you say in this thread (and others) yet have an avatar of one of the most overrated fighters on this planet.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Toxic said:


> the fact is he could not have competed against anybody relevant in MMA.


No, that's not a fact, it's speculation. It's as much speculation as claiming he would be a major force im MMA. Neither of both claimings can be verified. But a fact is, unless you call all the martial artists who met and trained with him liars, that he cross trained a lot himself in different styles and was propagating cross training to become a complete martial artist.



Toxic said:


> And the whole use what works throw away what doesn't isn't new, its what Kano was trying to do when he came up with Judo over 100 years ago. Funny thing is Kano's "Judo" more closley resembles modern MMA than Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do.


You obviously didn't read my postings. There is no such thing as a specific appearance of Jeet Kune Do, because it's not a fixed style of collected techniques. It's an open minded approach to fighting, it's not about individual techniques, but about how to learn and the techniques he used where rather to exemplify.

Kano actually was in my mind in my first post. Yes, his original Kodokan Judo resembles MMA with Gi (I've talked about that in other threads). The thing is, Kano did an approach similar to what Lee propagated while learning himself and developing his Judo, BUT he didn't teach his way of learning. He tought his Judo as a more or less fixed system. So people who learned Judo learned what was most usefull for _Kano's_ fighting abilities, but not necessarily for _their own_. Speaking in a metaphor, Kano (as did Gracie and other style founders) gave his students fishes (big ones no doubt), but Lee gave his students fishing rods and an instruction on how to use it. That's the big difference.



Toxic said:


> The true fathers of MMA are guys like Suzuki, Funakai, Shamrock and Gracie.


No, they where beyond any doubt great fighters/good style teachers that had a big influence on MMA becoming mainstream (as did/has Dana White), but didn't propagate cross training as Lee did (Shamrock being maybe closest of an active athlete in the early mainstream days of MMA to train the way Lee thought was best).


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

How would Jackie Chan do in UFC 1 if we're on the subject. :sarcastic12:


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## HD209458B (Mar 19, 2011)

How bout Jet Li in Bantamweight against Dominick Cruz? according to wiki Li is 23years older than Cruz tho.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

How about that Ralph guy from karate kid, I heard he has a mean crane kick. See it's real easy to name actors that weren't martial artists, unlike Bruce Lee who was legit.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

I know why not put Seagal in the octagon , i mean he basically taught Lyoto and Anderson how to kick properly :sarcastic12:

His deadly arts could wipe out the entire LHW or HW division depending on how many pies he eats in camp.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Inspiration don't mean shit. Rocky probably inspired them to but I doubt anyone wanted to throw Sly into the octagon.
> 
> What he did accomplish in the martial arts world and what he could have accomplished in the mixed martial arts world are two completely different subjects, One does not translate to the other. He may have revelutionized traditional martial arts but the man is still 99% myth and the fact is he could not have competed against anybody relevant in MMA.
> 
> ...


I think you're missing the point of the entire thread. Its not what kind of an MMA fighter would Bruce Lee be. Its glaringly obvious that if he competed in MMA today he'd get rolled pretty easily by anyone with a half way decent shot. 

The point was how would Bruce Lee of 1972 compare to guys like Gracie, Ken Shamrock, Jimmerson, Gordeau, etc. There's no question he's at a disadvantage against grapplers, but the real question is what are his chances of winning UFC 1. 

Coops has gone into great detail explaining his strength and how everyone he knew raved about it. This tells me he woudl be able to match some of the men competing in strength. Though I suspect guys like Shamrock, who had technical training in both stand up and ground fighting, would use their weight as a real weapon, a guy like Gracie would be hard pressed to do so. 

People talk about how amazing Royce was at UFC 1. And I wonder if any of them have watched it recently. Everyone Gracie fought at UFC 1 had no clue what he was doing. He would pull guard and they'd look at him like he was silly as he walked his legs up their back and pulled them into a triangle with his gi pants. Gracie's mistique is just as baseless as Lee's. Against almost ANYONE today Gracie would meet the same fate as Lee would. 

This comes down to stylistic matchups. Lee was extremely talented on his feet. His ground fighting knowledge has always been a bit of a mystery. By reading the Tao you can see he had a decently developed understanding of how to fight an opponent on the ground. In my opinion, enough to wriggle free of Gracie's guard pull or terrible takedowns, or to escape entirely and stand with him. 

Its my personal opinion, and of course its just an opinion because there's no evidence to the contrary, or for it, that if Lee had fought at UFC 1, the innovator of sprawl and brawl wouldn't be Chuck Liddell.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

The first person that I saw use sprawl and brawl successfully was Don Frye. I miss the mustache from hell.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

***** de Amigo said:


> How would Jackie Chan do in UFC 1 if we're on the subject. :sarcastic12:


His drunken fist would have powned :thumbsup: and good reads in here.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Soakked said:


> Well said and true. If people actually took the time to read about his life and what those around him had to say, he was surely a freak of nature. People that are coming to their conclusions based on watching his movies are only seeing part of the picture.
> 
> First of all the fights in his movies were purposely made fancy for audiences and slowed down, with techniques that looked good but were not really efficent. He has discussed this before in the past. The directors would constantly tell him he needed to slow down his punches in order for it to show better in camera.
> 
> ...





Squirrelfighter said:


> I think you're missing the point of the entire thread. Its not what kind of an MMA fighter would Bruce Lee be. Its glaringly obvious that if he competed in MMA today he'd get rolled pretty easily by anyone with a half way decent shot.
> 
> The point was how would Bruce Lee of 1972 compare to guys like Gracie, Ken Shamrock, Jimmerson, Gordeau, etc. There's no question he's at a disadvantage against grapplers, but the real question is what are his chances of winning UFC 1.
> 
> ...


Well said guys :thumbsup:


I go back one more time to my favourite phrase 


If Lenoard Garcia can compete today and make a living in this Sport, then Bruce Lee would have done better!!


We overrate fighters from today a little to much guys. NFL/ WWE Stars and people who knows where else.. can compete TODAY and you are trying to tell me Bruce Lee wouldn't have been able to?

He was a Student of the Game guys!!!

A Student of the Game!


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Soakked said:


> My point was that jumping on the OP for not using a search function is not his place, and if anyone is going to regulate what should and shouldn't be posted (or what has been posted a billion times) it'll be a mod.
> 
> Yeah, most mods are volunteers so what's your point? Don't understand what I said that made you feel "disrespected". I'm sorry you are so senstive of being a mod.


 You post may have come off wrong but when I read it I take it as basically saying who cares it there is another thread why bother searching, the mods can just merge it later. It may be true but you know what while I am quite happy to dedicate my time to this site cause I enjoy the people who post here. I enjoy intelligent debate even with people I don't agree with.( Bobby Cooper is one of my favorite posters because we rarely agree but can always debate any topic civilly.) But now while I put time in on staff cause I love the board I don't think its to much to ask members to use the search function so we can spend more time posting and discussing MMA instead of having to spend our time cleaning up other peoples messes. As for the rest of your post I am not even gonna bother responding to that shit.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

Toxic said:


> You post may have come off wrong but when I read it I take it as basically saying who cares it there is another thread why bother searching, the mods can just merge it later. It may be true but you know what while I am quite happy to dedicate my time to this site cause I enjoy the people who post here. I enjoy intelligent debate even with people I don't agree with.( Bobby Cooper is one of my favorite posters because we rarely agree but can always debate any topic civilly.) But now while I put time in on staff cause I love the board I don't think its to much to ask members to use the search function so we can spend more time posting and discussing MMA instead of having to spend our time cleaning up other peoples messes. As for the rest of your post I am not even gonna bother responding to that shit.


Ok I see your point, and misunderstood. I didn't mean it that way, but I can see why you felt the way that you did. Apologies for the other part, it was out of line.

BTW this board is one of my favorites because of the awesome jobs of mods including yourself. That's not certainly something I wouldn't take for granted and I'm sure others would agree. The work you guys do are definitely appreciated.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Don't even worry about it.





BobbyCooper said:


> Well said guys :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> I go back one more time to my favourite phrase
> ...


Bobby your right, Bruce Lee was a true student of the game, unfortunately it was a different game. His style is not based on what we know now effective. His ideal may have been great but the application came up with a diffrent product and one we now know to be ineffective. Could he have beat some of the guys in UFC 1, likely. Could he have beaten the likes of Shamrock and Gracie well I doubt it. Could he be effective in todays game? Not at all. Its not meant disrespectfully to him but much of his aura is based on hype, he is a relic of a diffrent time when martial arts were viewed in a different way and there effectiveness's were viewed differently. It may be fair to say that if he was born in this era with the knowledge of martial arts and training methods now used that yes with his dedication, desire for knowledge and god given talent that he could be successful but based on his actual body of work there is nothing to indicate that the man who actually practiced would have been effective.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Soakked said:


> Ok I see your point, and misunderstood. I didn't mean it that way, but I can see why you felt the way that you did. Apologies for the other part, it was out of line.
> 
> BTW this board is one of my favorites because of the awesome jobs of mods including yourself. That's not certainly something I wouldn't take for granted and I'm sure others would agree. The work you guys do are definitely appreciated.


I sign that every day :thumbsup:



Toxic said:


> Bobby your right, Bruce Lee was a true student of the game, unfortunately it was a different game. His style is not based on what we know now effective. His ideal may have been great but the application came up with a diffrent product and one we now know to be ineffective. Could he have beat some of the guys in UFC 1, likely. Could he have beaten the likes of Shamrock and Gracie well I doubt it. Could he be effective in todays game? Not at all. Its not meant disrespectfully to him but much of his aura is based on hype, he is a relic of a diffrent time when martial arts were viewed in a different way and there effectiveness's were viewed differently. It may be fair to say that if he was born in this era with the knowledge of martial arts and training methods now used that yes with his dedication, desire for knowledge and god given talent that he could be successful but based on his actual body of work there is nothing to indicate that the man who actually practiced would have been effective.


Toxic, Bruce was a true Martial Artist. I have seen footage of him training outside in a garden where he kicked a heavy bag multible times. Every kick landed with full force and brilliant technique. His punches came just like that and bag was flying through the air.

This guy knew how to be a standup fighter Toxic. Maybe he would have needed some time to adapt to the MMA fighting of course.. but I just can not believe that Lee wouldn't have find success in this Sport.

Guys like Kikuno and Machida have a unique style which is absolutely different and it works. Bruce defense would have looked like a Bantamweight version of Lyoto. 

I think Bruce would have been the second least hit fighter in the Sport right after Lyoto 

There are so many wanabe MMA Fighters in the Top Promotions these days.. Bruce Lee would have find his place!


But I agree with you that he he would not have won a Tournament with grapplers or UFC 1 where there was no weight limit. That would be insane to believe!

But in his own division!! He would have beaten fools left and right.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

BobbyCooper said:


> I sign that every day :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To paraphrase Bruce Lee: "Bags don't hit back."


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

Well I think he would do well in the ufc but I am not sure he could get past shamrock. I mean shamrock was just so big back the and although he would not be as skills as Bruce but he may be good enough to get his hands on him and as strong as Ken was that may have been all it would take.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> To paraphrase Bruce Lee: "Bags don't hit back."


.. you do believe Fighters are being born right? Training is everything!!!

If an NFL douchbag can make it in this Sport, a WWE Superstar become Champion after 4 Pro fights.. then Bruce Lee would have been able to fight too and fight good!


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Any non believers should read his book and study his training videos. He was the real deal. One of the first to espouse cross training (multiple martial arts discipline) and emphasize strength/conditioning excercises. He would have learned new forms, disciplines, and techniques at an accelerated rate. That's why he considered himself a "student master." All fighters today are actually students not masters other than perhaps Anderson Silva. He comes very close to it if not already. 

His dedication to his artform was second to none. He didn't really make much off teaching people. In fact he was shunned in his community when he taught outsiders. Today most "MMA figheters" train and fight for one reason...for money. Mentality is completely different. I just can't see how he wouldn't have been top 3 back then or today especially in his own weight class. 

It would have been quite interesting to see that's for sure.


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