# Dana White has sold his soul to FOX



## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

The entire MMA community - fighters and fans alike - have been in an uproar lately about UFC President Dana White's controversial decision to tape the upcoming season of TUF with coaches Chael Sonnen and LHW Champion Jon Jones, with the two set to square off in early 2013. Understandably, LHW contenders and hardcore fans of the sport claim that Sonnen is undeserving because he has never fought at LHW in the UFC and is coming off a TKO loss; the consensus is that Sonnen only "earned" this fight by running his mouth and blasting the champion via Twitter. 

For many, however, this isn't just a spark that has lit the fuse: it is the straw that broke the camel's back. This misstep is just one of many in what seems to be a long line of poor decisions by UFC brass lately. I would argue that 2012 has been the worst year for the modern UFC for many reasons. 

It has been a year full of injuries and scrapped fights, and while the UFC is not entirely to blame many have pointed to the adoption of guaranteed fighter health insurance as well as making fight cards rely too much on one or two fights as being contributing factors. Speaking of which, the UFC has also been criticized for putting on so many cards that the value of each card is diluted to the point where there haven't been any stacked cards lately. The show's once flagship reality series TUF has been struggling in the ratings department (partially due to a poor decision to air on Friday nights) and fans complain that the model is stale, the contestants are weak, and the "drama" is something they could do without. 

My theory on all of this is that Dana White has sold his soul to FOX, not literally of course. Before Dana signed his multi-year deal with FOX, he was a man who truly was passionate about MMA and did everything he could to put on the fights that the fans wanted and put the legitimacy of the show ahead of cheap short-term ratings and freak shows. In that same vein, Dana has always dreamed of the UFC hitting it big and scoring a major network deal.

Dana stayed true to his principles, but once he landed his major deal with FOX everything changed. What had once been an operation completely run by Dana had become a promotion that had the FOX devil playing its hand behind the scenes. The first FOX event was a tremendous disappointment in many ways. Despite the fans' claim that putting all your stock in ONE HW fight that is expected to end in a finish could be a risky move, FOX undoubtedly pressured Dana to put on a HW title fight and promote it like boxing did in the old days, even though it has always been the UFC's model to build a solid 5-fight main card instead of basing its entire event on one fight like boxing does today. 
Predictably, the event failed because it ended up having like 55 minutes of talk time and only a few minutes of actual fighting. To add to that, Dana was forced to move TUF to Friday night to accomodate the FX program schedule and this also led to a drop in ratings. Instead of trying to build quality shows, Dana let FOX influence him into whipping out any gimmick he could to make the show draw viewers, from live episodes that disappointed to the current Sonnen-Bones season that has the MMA world in a furor. 

Furthermore, the insistence of FOX on building its FX and FUEL channels has led the UFC to put a bunch of weak cards on those channels that traditionally could have been used to build solid all-around cards on PPV. In short, Dana has let the UFC product get diluted in order to please his FOX masters. 

Overall, I see the UFC slowly but surely going down the same inevitable route that boxing went. Boxing was a respected sport for a long time, in which the fans got to see the fights that were big and the sport was perceived to be legitimate in the sense that title shots were earned off of merit. Eventually, boxing started striking deals with network television and once it got big the slimy promoters like Don King came in and corrupted the sport into a freak show. Now, boxing puts on crappy cards that basically have one big fight and a few other fights that nobody cares about. Fighters regularly stack records against cans, and getting a title shot is more about politics than merit. While this model is making big money for the few in the know, it has hurt the sport for fans on the whole.
Similarly, the UFC started out respectable and now Dana has sold his soul to the big FOX network. With the big money comes corruption, and we are seeing shows diluted and gimmicks instituted right before our very eyes. I see 2012 not as an abberation for the UFC, but a negative trend. Unfortunately, Dana is locked into his FOX contract for years to come so this is just the beginning.

As a disappointed UFC fan, all I can say is buckle up, sit back, and watch the show as our beloved sport devolves down the same road that boxing went before it


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Dana calls the shots and he's teaching the LHW title holder a lesson along with everyone else in the division and organization.

Shogun declined, Lyoto declined, Hendo got injured without giving sufficient notice, the LHW title holder got placed in a compromising position and could have saved the show with deft negotiations, but opted not to. 

Fortune favors the bold. 

Anderson Silva offered to save UFC 151 and he actually did it in Rio. His stock is now at an ALL TIME HIGH. Every fighter has given him props for doing it including former foes; Patrick Cote and Jorge Rivera.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

No_Mercy said:


> Dana calls the shots and he's teaching the LHW title holder a lesson along with everyone else in the division and organization.
> 
> Shogun declined, Lyoto declined, Hendo got injured without giving sufficient notice, the LHW title holder got placed in a compromising position and could have saved the show with deft negotiations, but opted not to.
> 
> ...


/thread

seriously, there's nothing to say beyond this but the whining and moaning shall commence


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

No_Mercy said:


> Dana calls the shots and he's teaching the LHW title holder a lesson along with everyone else in the division and organization.
> 
> Shogun declined, Lyoto declined, Hendo got injured without giving sufficient notice, the LHW title holder got placed in a compromising position and could have saved the show with deft negotiations, but opted not to.
> 
> ...



And that right there is exactly the problem with Dana. You don't punish fighters who legitimately deserve a shot at the title just because they weren't ready to fight yet or got injured and then turn around and give the shot to a clown to make a point.

Dana only hurt himself here and the credibility of the UFC.


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## Servatose (Apr 21, 2008)

rabakill said:


> /thread
> 
> seriously, there's nothing to say beyond this but the whining and moaning shall commence


Agreed. These declarations continue to become more and more outrageous.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Were I even remotely worried that the MMAF populace could bring down the UFC, I might lend a bit of credence to these 'the UFC will be worse off from here on out' rants and raves. This isn't the end of the world. Business will continue to be good. The UFC will suffer no harm from any of this. And the sooner you all realize this, the better. I've been reading posts like this for years now, and guess what... the UFC has only gotten bigger and better in that time. 

If you don't like this decision, then don't tune into TUF and don't order the PPV. But believe me when I say that your lost viewership will have ZERO impact on the organization.


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## TheNinja (Dec 10, 2008)

The thing with others fighters declining to fight Jon Jones is: They were all on SHORT NOTICE. I mean, who really wants to fight Jon Jones, after he's had a FULL Training camp on 8 days notice. Esp. Machida who already fought him on short notice once....

Dana White is kinda of a dick about giving these guys a full training camp to fight his prize pet Jon Jones.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

It's a collective thing. Every individual will speak with their viewership and wallet.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Shogun and Machida turned down fighting Jones on more than a month's notice. Each was offered the Toronto fight that Vitor eventually received.


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## TheNinja (Dec 10, 2008)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Shogun and Machida turned down fighting Jones on more than a month's notice. Each was offered the Toronto fight that Vitor eventually received.


It was 1 Month..Which is very short notice for a title fight... That's only 3 weeks to prepare. You don't do anything but recover that last week... Plus Jones already had his Full 8 weeks plus the extra 3.. which he stated several times was great...He did nothing but pure Martial Arts the last 3 weeks...


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## Jason12 (May 8, 2010)

So if I am understanding this correctly they are basically saying Dana is selling out by giving into the big money from FOX? 

So Dana White should be replaced because he is not a business guy and the UFC is going to need someone who is more of a CEO to take them to the next level. 

But also,

Dana White should be replaced because he is focusing too much on the business and not giving the fans what they want.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Shogun and Machida turned down fighting Jones on more than a month's notice. Each was offered the Toronto fight that Vitor eventually received.


Machida and Shogun are two top five Light Heavyweight's with a loss to Jones already, one more and they're stuck in the Rich Franklin/Donald Cerrone/Jon Fitch/Urijah Faber land, well Shogun is. Machida could make 185 and own there, Shogun is just SOL.

Vitor Belfort, was a Middleweight who stepped up with nothing to lose and his spot at 185, still intact.

Chael, same situation as Vitor, nothing to lose, except a few dollars on doctor bills, and everything to gain.

There is still no reason, to punish Dan though. This should be Jon Jones vs. Dan Henderson, not Jones vs. Sonnen.


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## BOMDC (Feb 13, 2011)

I've always got the impression that Dana and Zuffa have always been in the business for money, not not seeing where this "loss of passion for the sport" argument comes into play. Beyond that all I read was an armchair rant of an analysis which seem to be in plentiful supply this month. Let their advisers, analysts, and consultants do their job and if your panties are in a bunch send them a letter or something that will be thrown into a pile. That being said, most people agree with you.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

No_Mercy said:


> Dana calls the shots and he's teaching the LHW title holder a lesson along with everyone else in the division and organization.
> 
> Shogun declined, Lyoto declined, Hendo got injured without giving sufficient notice, the LHW title holder got placed in a compromising position and could have saved the show with deft negotiations, but opted not to.
> 
> Fortune favors the bold.


Meh. I can understand them turning down the fight. They lost to Jon before, why would they risk their potential future shot on taking him on in short notice with only 3 weeks of prepararation and a full weight cut. Lose to the champ twice and chances are your not getting a shot again. Meanwhile Jon was on full camp. Sonnen had nothing to lose. I don't think DW is trying to prove any kind of message. Jones-Sonnen is just a money fight.
Sent from my GT-S5660 using VerticalSports.Com App


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

I don't get why everybody keeps talking about Machida and Shogun. What about Glover Teixeira, Phil Davis, Alexander Gustaffson, etc? Sure you could argue they dont deserve title shots but there's no way in hell you can argue that they deserve one less than Sonnen.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> I don't get why everybody keeps talking about Machida and Shogun. What about Glover Teixeira, Phil Davis, Alexander Gustaffson, etc? Sure you could argue they dont deserve title shots but there's no way in hell you can argue that they deserve one less than Sonnen.


They're the only two people who we know got offered the fight.


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## TheAuger (Jun 30, 2011)

Most people understand why Chael is getting a shot Jones. The reason is that Chael is TV gold, love him or hate him. And DW had to do something to bump the ratings of TUF. So, insert Chael vs Bones and the ratings for TUF will be temporarily solved. They really need to move TUF to Weds/Thurs night instead of Friday. Or have it lead in or follow SOA on Tuesday.

As for DW selling his soul, these type of threads/rants are so tiresome. 

Most of the major sports in the USA have spread out their product on TV too much at some point in order to make more money. And at first, the fans were not happy. But they do come around, they always do. 

The UFC is not alone in this. Take the NFL for example:

-First we got Sunday NFL Ticket. NFL fans were excited. 
-NFL fans learned that it is only available on DTV & the NFL is locked into a contract with them for close to a decade. This made many fans w/o DTV upset. 
-NFL came out with it's own network. NFL fans were happy again. 
-NFL fans find out it's a premium channel. NFL fans that have to pay extra to get NFL network are upset again. 
-NFL switches MNF from ABC to ESPN. NFL fans without cable/sat are upset again.
-NFL starts a Sunday Night Prime time game. NFL fans are happy again.
-NFL starts adding 2-3 Thursday night games each year that are only available on the NFL network. Fans are unhappy again.
-NFL allows the cities of teams that participate in the Thursday night games to broadcast on local stations. NFL fans are happy again. 
-NFL adds a Thursday night game to all 17 weeks of the schedule. Many fans are not happy.

This was all done over the last decade.

The point being is that all sports organizations are constantly looking for increased revenue through television. And some of the time they do so at the expense of fans. The UFC is no different. 

Fans are fickle. They may be upset now, but most usually get over their temporary anger & return to enjoying the sport they love to watch.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

TheLyotoLegion said:


> Machida and Shogun are two top five Light Heavyweight's with a loss to Jones already, one more and they're stuck in the Rich Franklin/Donald Cerrone/Jon Fitch/Urijah Faber land, well Shogun is. Machida could make 185 and own there, Shogun is just SOL.
> 
> Vitor Belfort, was a Middleweight who stepped up with nothing to lose and his spot at 185, still intact.
> 
> ...


I was simply correcting the chap who said that Shogun and Machida were being punished for not taking the Jones fight on 8 days notice. The truth is, they turned down said fight on a month's (perhaps more) notice. 

Shogun could make 185. He's always carried some excess cargo.


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## Sports_Nerd (Apr 23, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I was simply correcting the chap who said that Shogun and Machida were being punished for not taking the Jones fight on 8 days notice. The truth is, they turned down said fight on a month's (perhaps more) notice.
> 
> Shogun could make 185. He's always carried some excess cargo.


He can make 185, that doesn't mean he can fight effectively at 185.


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## TheNinja (Dec 10, 2008)

Canadian Psycho said:


> I was simply correcting the chap who said that Shogun and Machida were being punished for not taking the Jones fight on 8 days notice. The truth is, they turned down said fight on a month's (perhaps more) notice.
> 
> Shogun could make 185. He's always carried some excess cargo.


I never said that... I said the fighters wanted a full training camp.. Is that really hard to understand? I don't thats asking much when your fighting Jon Jones.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

No need to get sour, slick.



TheNinja said:


> The thing with others fighters declining to fight Jon Jones is: They were all on SHORT NOTICE. I mean, who really wants to fight Jon Jones, after he's had a FULL Training camp *on 8 days notice*. Esp. Machida who already fought him on short notice once....


Gee, I wonder how I got the idea that you said these fighters were turning down a fight on 8 days notice. Machida and Shogun were offered the later Toronto fight, which was a little more than a month's notice. Facts are facts. 

I get what you're saying about Machida and Shogun not wanting to fight Jones after he's had a full training camp and they haven't. It was your '8 days notice' comment that I was correcting. Nothing more, nothing less. Choose to get uppity if you want, but I didn't mean any harm by it.


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## Sports_Nerd (Apr 23, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> No need to get sour, slick.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is there a source for this? My understanding was that they declined the 151 fight, and Dana was then reluctant to give them the shot in Toronto because they already turned him down.

ETA: Never mind, found the article on MMA Junkie:

http://mmajunkie.com/news/30353/vit...achida-against-champ-jon-jones-at-ufc-152.mma


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

And here's another for Shogun. 

http://www.mmamania.com/2012/8/24/3264799/shogun-rua-turned-down-jon-jones-title-fight-at-ufc-152

Again, I wasn't correcting anyone on the length of training camps. I was simply saying that Shogun and Machida were both extended the opportunity to fight Jon a second time on more than 8 days notice. And both men declined.


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

TheLyotoLegion said:


> They're the only two people who we know got offered the fight.


Exactly, that's the problem.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Rauno said:


> Meh. I can understand them turning down the fight. They lost to Jon before, why would they risk their potential future shot on taking him on in short notice with only 3 weeks of prepararation and a full weight cut. Lose to the champ twice and chances are your not getting a shot again. Meanwhile Jon was on full camp. Sonnen had nothing to lose. I don't think DW is trying to prove any kind of message.* Jones-Sonnen is just a money fight.*
> Sent from my GT-S5660 using VerticalSports.Com App


Yep, it's essentially about the bottomline. The key though is how it got there. That's why I had to mention other fighters who turned it down. What choice did the UFC have; Glover, Gustaf (most plausible), Davis, Rashad (nobody will want to see a rematch), Cormier. Chael stepped up and somehow talked his way into it. 

I would have let the LHW title holder recuperate and have the winner of Gustaf/Shogun, Glover/Rampage and especially Hendo/Machida take it. That makes sense...not Chael. To reiterate fortune favors the bold. Business can not wait. You ever see stock brokers operate. They sell and buy within nanoseconds. They gotta keep things moving and put on "entertaining shows," albeit with less than sportsman like qualities even at times. It's 80% sports like and 20% showmanship. You can thank Tito and Brock for that. It aint all bad. Easier to see on the outside much more difficult on the inside so I can understand fully their methodology here.


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

Everybody saying that this was a "smart business move" doesn't know a thing about business. Yes, this will make the UFC money in the SHORT TERM, but long term it will hurt the bottom line by negatively influencing the promotion's appearance of legitimacy. When EliteXC put Kimbo Slice as a main event on CBS, yes they broke viewership records for that one card in the short term, but what happened to them long term? The promotion was rightfully viewed as a joke and it collapsed. I'd venture that almost everybody on this forum has no business experience whatsoever and thinks freakshows are the best way to sustain a profitable MMA business.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> Everybody saying that this was a "smart business move" doesn't know a thing about business. Yes, this will make the UFC money in the SHORT TERM, but long term it will hurt the bottom line by negatively influencing the promotion's appearance of legitimacy. When EliteXC put Kimbo Slice as a main event on CBS, yes they broke viewership records for that one card in the short term, but what happened to them long term? The promotion was rightfully viewed as a joke and it collapsed. I'd venture that almost everybody on this forum has no business experience whatsoever and thinks freakshows are the best way to sustain a profitable MMA business.


I for one don't think it's a prudent move at all. It was influenced by what was mentioned above. It's circumstantial. One got injured, the LHW title holder didn't want to take the replacement fight, enter The Phenom who injures his arm, two top fighters turned it down in the process, Chael steps up...it's the way it presented itself.

I think you're pretty riled up and I feel ya. That deal is done whether we like it or not. I despised the LHW holder for not taking the last minute replacement fight, but then I realized what for. He's the one that's gonna get the backlash eventually. Look...he now has to fight em and endure months of harassment where he could have decimated em at UFC 151 and become the likeable superstar the UFC wanted him to be. 

He will forever be in Anderson's shadow. Anyways hope you get a different perspective on this. Can't get too riled up on things. Look at the bright side.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> Everybody saying that this was a "smart business move" doesn't know a thing about business. Yes, this will make the UFC money in the SHORT TERM, but long term it will hurt the bottom line by negatively influencing the promotion's appearance of legitimacy. When EliteXC put Kimbo Slice as a main event on CBS, yes they broke viewership records for that one card in the short term, but what happened to them long term? The promotion was rightfully viewed as a joke and it collapsed. I'd venture that almost everybody on this forum has no business experience whatsoever and thinks freakshows are the best way to sustain a profitable MMA business.


Sounds to me like it's *you* who doesn't know a thing about business. But you go ahead and insult people to get your 'point' across.


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## halifaxdonair (Aug 27, 2011)

i never understand these threads because they always make it sound like something new and different is happening. Belfort didn't fight at middleweight before fighting silva, he didn't fight at lhw before fighting jones. Edgar has lost 2 fights in a row and hasn't fought at the weight class he is now getting a shot at. couture lost a title fight at hw and moved down and got a shot at lhw. certain legends have been constantly gifted titleshots.



the ultimate fighter gets bad ratings because it has been around for 300 seasons. there are only so many times you can watch fighters pee on things before you lose interest.


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

Maybe less is more. UFC on FX, Spike, and Fox has pretty much diluted most of the major cards. People can bitch and whine about how Jon Jones (and other LHW fighters) didn't take a fight on 8 days notice but in the end Dana was the one that made a card that probably wouldn't hold up on Spike T.V. So because he made this lousy card he's going to punish the LHW division by giving a MW fighter, who lost his last fight, a title shot in a division he never fought in. What's next? Dana is going to give Melvin Guillard a shot at GSP?:sarcastic12:


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## TheNinja (Dec 10, 2008)

Canadian Psycho said:


> No need to get sour, slick.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL...I see.. Not What I meant.. but I get it...


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## Lock Bresnar (Nov 16, 2009)

Im not sure what it is, but since UFC switched to FOX I have quit watching almost all UFC events. There for a while it seemed like there was an event every week, but most of the people I had never heard of so I just didn't care. I know that isn't a good reason, but I have lost interest in the UFC for the most part.


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Sounds to me like it's *you* who doesn't know a thing about business. But you go ahead and insult people to get your 'point' across.


Excellent rebuttal to my argument, you have convinced me that you are right and I am wrong. Good job.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Why should I respect you or your post enough to respond intelligently? You've made it clear that you don't believe anyone on this forum has a shred of knowledge or experience when it comes to business. And you made it known in a condescending manner. So again, why should I even bother wasting my time with you when you clearly lack respect for the opinions of others? 

But hey, I'll bite. Here's why your comparing the UFC to EliteXC is faulty. EliteXC folded because it put all of its eggs in one basket - Kimbo Slice. EliteXC gambled on a single man, who it made the face of its entire organization. When Slice subsequently lost to a virtual nobody, the company had no one to fall back on. The UFC couldn't possibly suffer that same fate, as it has dozens of bankable stars. Anderson Silva, Georges St. Pierre, Jon Jones, Chael Sonnen, Junior Dos Santos, Cain Velasquez, Jose Aldo, and the list goes on and on. I reiterate. EliteXC folded because its one, bankable star fell to a can, and along with him fell the promotion's credibility. The UFC is in a much better place. 

Secondly, EliteXC, aside from banking on a single man, also banked almost exclusively on 'freakshow' fights. The UFC does not. You and others like to be dramatic and make the claim that UFC is going the route of professional wrestling. But the fact remains that for every 'freakshow' or 'money' fight we're subjected to, we're treated to dozens of competitive bouts between hungry and game fighters looking to make their way up the ladder. As long as we continue to enjoy cards such as UFC 153, the organization can afford to mix in the odd 'oh no they didn't' fight. The fact is that the latter fights occur very rarely. Hence, the UFC will not be worse off in the long run. All it will take is another card the likes of UFC 153 to roll along, and everyone will have forgotten about this Chael/Jones fiasco. That's a fact. 

And thirdly, the UFC has a virtual monopoly over the MMA scene. If *you* had any knowledge of business, you'd understand why this means that it is nearly impossible that the UFC will one day have to shut its doors due to a single fight. Especially when the casual fans will eat that fight up. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the UFC is going to be just fine.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> My theory on all of this is that Dana White has sold his soul to FOX, not literally of course.


Whew! Thanks for clarifying! I was beginning to think you meant that Dana had attended a black mass and signed a fiery contract in baby's blood! :laugh:


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

This is hardly a new thing, Lesner, Couture, Shamrock and maybe even Faber have been granted undeserved title shots based on one thing...money. So this marks Dana selling his soul...get the fuk out, he never started with one.


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## Purgetheweak (Apr 23, 2012)

Wow, I would be more suprised at this thread if I didn't see the exact same claims being made almost every month for the last 8 years.. 

Sent from my HTC-X710a using VerticalSports.Com App


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Purgetheweak said:


> Wow, I would be more suprised at this thread if I didn't see the exact same claims being made almost every month for the last 8 years..
> 
> Sent from my HTC-X710a using VerticalSports.Com App


Purgetheweak and I don't always agree, but when we do, it's on this.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

MMA has never looked better than it does right this second. Stop complaining and enjoy this shit. It wont last forever.


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## zath the champ (Feb 13, 2008)

For years Dana said that his goal was to get onto network TV...

The biggest issue threatening the UFC these days is not the Fox deal or even the injuries; it is the ability of fighters to decline fights.

Hear me out: 

When I'm working and my boss tells me to do something, I do it. If I didn't, I may lose my job. If I'm scheduled to work and my direct reports don't show up, I still have to get the job done.

If you're booked to fight at an event and your opponent is injured etc. , you should be contractually obligated fight whoever the powers that be can arrange.

If you're told that you are going to fight an opponent (as long as they are a sanctioned opponent by the state's athletic commission), you should be contractually obligated to do so.

I know that is not how combat sports have traditionally operated, but it would be a welcome change (from my POV at least). 

I know some will disagree, but it would definitely add to the consistency of cards (IE. UFC productions) and it could even add to the excitement of upcoming events.


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## tie (Oct 9, 2011)

My perspective might be a bit screwed, but I have not watched a full season of TUF ever. I most likely would have watched it if they did have it on any channel on here. I really have no interest in waking up at 01 am to find out what forrest griffin felt like some 10 years ago. I've tried to watch some TUF hollywood seasons, but going on what something like 20th season in one country, you really get the not so talented as you did with the first season. I watched the fights on Brazilian TUF, well some of them.

What I'm trying to say is that yes I agree with the OP. It stinks of FOX and obligations. Dana got so frustrated and worked up at all the questions at the legitimacy of the match up that I think it was clear to even himself how unsporting this whole deal is. I'm not blaming dana at all, he was put between a rock and a hard place. I'm not really blaming Sonnen or Jones either, it is what it is. I think they all know it is bs, they just have to pretend its ok and the real deal. Luckily there isn't a chance Sonnen will win.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Canadian Psycho said:


> The UFC couldn't possibly suffer that same fate, as it has dozens of bankable stars. Anderson Silva, Georges St. Pierre, Jon Jones, Chael Sonnen, Junior Dos Santos, Cain Velasquez, Jose Aldo...


What Chael Sonnen's name is doing on that list ????


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> *MMA has never looked better *than it does right this second. Stop complaining and enjoy this shit. It wont last forever.


Not even close. MMA was at it's peak when both Pride and UFC was at it's best.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Oh no! President of sports entertainment business sells his soul to big TV corporation! What self respecting sport would go and whore itself like that? It's a disgrace. :serious01:


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

Canadian Psycho said:


> But hey, I'll bite. Here's why your comparing the UFC to EliteXC is faulty. EliteXC folded because it put all of its eggs in one basket - Kimbo Slice. EliteXC gambled on a single man, who it made the face of its entire organization. When Slice subsequently lost to a virtual nobody, the company had no one to fall back on. The UFC couldn't possibly suffer that same fate, as it has dozens of bankable stars. Anderson Silva, Georges St. Pierre, Jon Jones, Chael Sonnen, Junior Dos Santos, Cain Velasquez, Jose Aldo, and the list goes on and on. I reiterate. EliteXC folded because its one, bankable star fell to a can, and along with him fell the promotion's credibility. The UFC is in a much better place.


Your interpretation is that EliteXC failed because it put all its eggs in one basket. My interpretation is that EliteXC failed because it damaged its own legitimacy by acting like a terrible fighter in Kimbo was a great champion, so when he was exposed nobody took EliteXC seriously anymore. In my UFC analogy, the UFC is acting like Sonnen is a worthy opponent and great fighter but when Bones finishes him fans will start connecting the dots as Sonnen has been finished in two consecutive title fights (unprecedented) and will rightfully lose respect for the legitimacy of the UFC.



> Secondly, EliteXC, aside from banking on a single man, also banked almost exclusively on 'freakshow' fights. The UFC does not. You and others like to be dramatic and make the claim that UFC is going the route of professional wrestling. But the fact remains that for every 'freakshow' or 'money' fight we're subjected to, we're treated to dozens of competitive bouts between hungry and game fighters looking to make their way up the ladder. As long as we continue to enjoy cards such as UFC 153, the organization can afford to mix in the odd 'oh no they didn't' fight. The fact is that the latter fights occur very rarely. Hence, the UFC will not be worse off in the long run. All it will take is another card the likes of UFC 153 to roll along, and everyone will have forgotten about this Chael/Jones fiasco. That's a fact.


What are you talking about? UFC 153 was a freak show fight too, unless you're crazy enough to consider Silva-Bonnar a serious fight...



> And thirdly, the UFC has a virtual monopoly over the MMA scene. If *you* had any knowledge of business, you'd understand why this means that it is nearly impossible that the UFC will one day have to shut its doors due to a single fight. Especially when the casual fans will eat that fight up. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the UFC is going to be just fine.


First, being a monopoly does not mean you are invincible. Myspace had a monopoly on social media at one point, and where is that now? UFC will not struggle because of one fight, it will struggle because of the general direction it is headed in which is REFLECTED STRONGLY by this one particular fight. Also, I never said the UFC will go bankrupt I'm just saying that it will not grow significantly if Dana keeps up these shenanigans.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> Your interpretation is that EliteXC failed because it put all its eggs in one basket. My interpretation is that EliteXC failed because it damaged its own legitimacy by acting like a terrible fighter in Kimbo was a great champion, so when he was exposed nobody took EliteXC seriously anymore. In my UFC analogy, the UFC is acting like Sonnen is a worthy opponent and great fighter but when Bones finishes him fans will start connecting the dots as Sonnen has been finished in two consecutive title fights (unprecedented) and will rightfully lose respect for the legitimacy of the UFC.


Well then we view the situation differently. To each his own. 



> What are you talking about? UFC 153 was a freak show fight too, unless you're crazy enough to consider Silva-Bonnar a serious fight...


I'll give you the main event, though I'd refer to it as exhibition over freak-show. That said, I was referencing the card as a whole. Surely you can admit that for the most part, UFC 153 made for an exciting night of fun and competitive bouts. If the UFC can keep pumping out PPVs such as those, I don't see the odd 'money fight' overshadowing them. I think that in this day and age, you can throw in the odd Sonnen vs. Jones or Bonnar vs. Silva when your business model is still heavily rooted in pitting the best against the best. You feel that the UFC is headed in the direction of freak show fights, whereas I see them as an occasional occurrence in an organization where competitive and justifiable bouts are more the norm. We may have to agree to disagree on this point. And again, to each their own. 



> First, being a monopoly does not mean you are invincible. Myspace had a monopoly on social media at one point, and where is that now? UFC will not struggle because of one fight, it will struggle because of the general direction it is headed in which is REFLECTED STRONGLY by this one particular fight. Also, I never said the UFC will go bankrupt I'm just saying that it will not grow significantly if Dana keeps up these shenanigans.


I didn't say that the UFC was invincible, but rather that it is not going to suffer the same fate as EliteXC due to one fight (whereas EliteXC did indeed die because of one fight). I see that you concede that point, and I can concede that were the UFC to head strictly in the direction of entertainment and exhibition/freak show fights, it would indeed be bad for business. However, I don't see that happening. I see a continued pattern of competitive bouts pitting top guy against top guy with the occasional 'oddball' fight factored in for casual fans, profit, and the like. 

Growth is a trickier issue. I've always felt that the UFC would plateau regardless of whatever direction it took. Some countries want purely competitive bouts pitting the best against the best, while others are very much into the theatricality and showiness of it all (Japan)... and though the UFC does a fairly good job of mixing it up now and again, how much bigger do we expect this organization to get? It's on a major network. It hosts regular PPVs all across the world. It has reality programs spanning the globe. It is home to the largest roster of fighters currently in existence. I'm genuinely curious as to where people think the UFC could go from here.


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

I hope for the sake of MMA that you're right, Canadian Psycho. I'm just pretty blown about the fact that Bones is locked up until next April because of Sonnen when I would much rather see fights with Gus/Glover/Phil Davis.


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## Rockstar189 (Dec 14, 2006)

I'm getting sick of Jones fighting bloated middleweights I can't wait till the day he steps into the cage with Black Fedor.

Hopefully Sonnen can get Jones down at least once. There is some hope...


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Rockstar189 said:


> I'm getting sick of Jones fighting bloated middleweights I can't wait till the day he steps into the cage with Black Fedor.
> 
> Hopefully Sonnen can get Jones down at least once. There is some hope...


Not sold on DC at 205 if that's what you meant. I wonder what's Sonnens plan once he get's him down. I doubt it'd be easy to control JBJ.

Sent from my GT-S5660 using VerticalSports.Com App


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

BOOM said:


> Not even close. MMA was at it's peak when both Pride and UFC was at it's best.


Right now, the UFC has a collection of the most talented fighters ever, and we get to see MUCH more action inside the cage. That puts it way ahead to me.

Tito Ortiz, Chuck Lidell, Dan Henderson, Rampage Jackson, Shogun Rua etc. aren't as talented as Jon Jones.

Every heavyweight with the exception of Overeem and Fedor arent as talented as JDS.

Anderson Silva is the greatest fighter of all time.

GSP is the greatest welterweight of all time.

Ben Hendo can fk off and stop ruining my great streak above.

Jose Aldo to my knowledge is the best FW ever.

Dominic Cruz and Mighty Mouse....ehhhh....whatever.

The fact is, right now with every division, maybe except MW and the new ones, being completley stacked to the top, I dont see how right this second cant be the best time MMA has ever seen. I'm all for nostalgia, but sometimes you have to let the past go and stop complaining about what we have now. Plenty of rap fans complaining in the 90s when NWA and 2pac were around, plenty of boxers complained when Ali and Frazier were around. Looking back, they were wrong, and in like 5 years looking back, you'll realize that you were wrong.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

zath the champ said:


> For years Dana said that his goal was to get onto network TV...
> 
> The biggest issue threatening the UFC these days is not the Fox deal or even the injuries; it is the ability of fighters to decline fights.
> 
> ...


They still don't REALLY have that ability, but I agree with you.

I got massive into MMA maybe in 2009, and I posted on EastSideBoxing that the reason MMA was taking me from boxing was because it was basically run by one promotion. You dont want to fight? You get cut from the only meaningful promotion. Dana (or whoever else behind closed doors) decide who fights who. They dont get to pick and choose. The Jones situation isnt really a downside because it was at such short notice after all and Vitor was the best replacement possible. If Dana offered say Machida a fight agaisnt Jones in April, he';d definently take it. If he didnt want it, he'd still take it, because if he didnt he'd probably get cut for not wanting to fight. UFC has MMA under such great control that we don't have to see fighters like Mayweather decides who to fight and when. Anderson Silva has that option to a degree, but he's picking super fights over defending against low interest MW challengers so I wouldnt really liken it to the boxing situation.

If it ever gets worse, that will be a huge issue in MMA and could start it's decline rapidly, but for the time being I think the UFC has this sown up very well, going as far as giving Chael Sonnen a title shot for stepping up (even though that was a little bit too much, and it should have been a "Who do you want to fight that isnt a champion?" kind of deal).


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Right now, the UFC has a collection of the most talented fighters ever, and we get to see MUCH more action inside the cage. That puts it way ahead to me.
> 
> Tito Ortiz, Chuck Lidell, Dan Henderson, Rampage Jackson, Shogun Rua etc. aren't as talented as Jon Jones.
> 
> ...


I really don't care about the collection of fighters the UFC has at the moment because a huge percentage of them suck balls and the good ones from days past are getting old and are not the same fighters anymore. 

To claim MMA is at it's peak right now is a ******* bad joke. In fact it's the complete opposite as we're waiting for the next generation of fighters to emerge and hopefully bring MMA back to what it once was. When Pride and UFC were at their peaks it pissed all over what we have now. Sorry but you really have no argument here.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

LOL @ the idea that the UFC was at its 'peak' when Tim Sylvia was champion!

:laugh:


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

BOOM said:


> I really don't care about the collection of fighters the UFC has at the moment because a huge percentage of them suck balls and the good ones from days past are getting old and are not the same fighters anymore.
> 
> To claim MMA is at it's peak right now is a ******* bad joke. In fact it's the complete opposite as we're waiting for the next generation of fighters to emerge and hopefully bring MMA back to what it once was. When Pride and UFC were at their peaks it pissed all over what we have now. Sorry but you really have no argument here.


Toe to toe, what Pride fighters beats WW-HW in UFC?

Fedor Vs JDS is a close call.
No one Vs Jones.
No one Vs Anderson.
No one Vs GSP

Pride was entertaining, but wasn't a sport. UFC was establishing itself, and it did just that in evolving into the amazing promotion it is today, with the best fighters of all time squaring off against each other all the time.

If JDS Vs Velasquez happened in 2006, you'd be talking to me about it now.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Toe to toe, what Pride fighters beats WW-HW in UFC?
> 
> Fedor Vs JDS is a close call.
> No one Vs Jones.
> ...


Pride wasn't a sport?

:confused03:


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

You tell me.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

What i think his trying to say is you referred to Pride as sport, not an organization.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> You tell me.


That fight wasn't in Pride.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Rauno said:


> What i think his trying to say is you referred to Pride as sport, not an organization.


Kind of realized that after I said it. Pride didn't really show sports programming, should I have said?



HexRei said:


> That fight wasn't in Pride.


Fuk, first fight I had posted was Graice Vs Akebono lol.

But whatever, you guys know what I mean. Pride had freakshow fights a lot and stuff and really it was just for the fans entertainment. Now MMA has proper rankings and proper competitive fights being made. Even Sonnen getting a title shot doesnt measure up to some of Pride's crazy fights. It was great, and I loved Pride, but if you're talking about talent and skill, and legitimacy as a sport, then Pride doesnt even come close to current UFC.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> You tell me.


Someone already pointed out that fight did'nt take place in Pride so there's no need for me to go there. I'm still not sure what point it is you're trying to make though as Pride had a plethora of fighters in their primes and tons of epic battles throughout the years.


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Toe to toe, what Pride fighters beats WW-HW in UFC?
> 
> Fedor Vs JDS is a close call.
> No one Vs Jones.
> ...


Anderson was a Pride fighter.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

BOOM said:


> Someone already pointed out that fight did'nt take place in Pride so there's no need for me to go there. I'm still not sure what point it is you're trying to make though as Pride had a plethora of fighters in their primes and tons of epic battles throughout the years.


Yeah sure, it had some epic fights. But the Pride top guys dont match up with the current UFC top guys, so to me there is no point in compairing a less talented company. UFC fighters right now is the best collection of MMA fighters assembled by FAR.



GrappleRetarded said:


> Anderson was a Pride fighter.


He must also be the best LHW fighter ever then? I know he faught in Pride but when he did, he wasnt the greatest fighter ever. Anderson now smashes Anderson back then. He probably would have made a Pride all star team if prime Pride went against UFC now, yet UFC Silva would demolish anyone standing in his way if that was to take place. Current UFC fighters > Prime Pride fighters.


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Yeah sure, it had some epic fights. But the Pride top guys dont match up with the current UFC top guys, so to me there is no point in compairing a less talented company. UFC fighters right now is the best collection of MMA fighters assembled by FAR.
> 
> 
> 
> He must also be the best LHW fighter ever then? I know he faught in Pride but when he did, he wasnt the greatest fighter ever. Anderson now smashes Anderson back then. He probably would have made a Pride all star team if prime Pride went against UFC now, yet UFC Silva would demolish anyone standing in his way if that was to take place. Current UFC fighters > Prime Pride fighters.


I've no idea what you're talking about.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

GrappleRetarded said:


> I've no idea what you're talking about.


No prime Pride MW fighter could beat current Anderson Silva.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Yeah sure, it had some epic fights. But the Pride top guys dont match up with the current UFC top guys, so to me there is no point in compairing a less talented company. UFC fighters right now is the best collection of MMA fighters assembled by FAR.


LOL, take your blinders off. Pride only had two weight divisions and their top fighters back then would easily match up with what the UFC has today.

Fedor in prime
Cro Cop in prime
Wanderlei in prime
Henderson in prime
Nog in prime
Shogun in prime
Rampage in prime
Randelman in prime


And those are just some of the obvious ones, WTF were you going on about again?


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

BOOM said:


> LOL, take your blinders off. Pride only had two weight divisions and their top fighters back then would easily match up with what the UFC has today.
> 
> Fedor in prime
> Cro Cop in prime
> ...


JDS beats prime Cro Cop, Randelman and Nog, Jon Jones beats prime Wanderlei, Henderson, Shogun and Rampage. The only name there that would have potentially stopped a current UFC champion would have been Fedor, who would have had an insane fitht with JDS.

Current UFC fighters > Prime Pride fighters.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

Joabbuac said:


> This is hardly a new thing, Lesner, Couture, Shamrock and maybe even Faber have been granted undeserved title shots based on one thing...money. So this marks Dana selling his soul...get the fuk out, he never started with one.



Loads of people gave me bad rep for this :laugh: Please...open a discussion, what bothered you so much?


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## RearNaked (Jul 20, 2012)

As has been said above, this isn't really about the LHW title. This is about the fact no one is watching TUF anymore.

And anyone concerned about Dana's soul, read that book his mother wrote. His own mother. The guy fractured his soul into 7 parts like Voldemort some time ago.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

I didn't low rep you, but I still dont get why anyone talks like Lesnar got anything handed to him. He was given the hardest run of opponents in UFC history, and faired pretty well against them.

I still think Dana books this shit very well. People just like to point of the negatives. When we have amazing cards like 153 or FOX 5, people say "Wow, those fighters put on a show", but when we have weak cards people say "Man Dana White sucks". We only associate the bad fights with the people in charge, and not all the good ones. We are all MMA fans for a reason, and 90% of us is from Zuffa era UFC. It's both Dana and the other guys in charge that has got most of us to be fans, and if you hate them then theres a reason you continue to post in the UFC section of the website (because you still watch UFC). Show a little more appreciation to these people because they are pulling the strings to make this your favourite sport. Not everything goes out ways, fights happen that we dont want to see, but TUF with Sonnen WILL bring in some new fans, much more so than say Jones Vs Glover, and those new casual or pro wrestling fans might just turn out as hardcore fans, because none of us started as hardcore fans before we became casuals.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> JDS beats prime Cro Cop, Randelman and Nog, Jon Jones beats prime Wanderlei, Henderson, Shogun and Rampage. The only name there that would have potentially stopped a current UFC champion would have been Fedor, who would have had an insane fitht with JDS.
> 
> Current UFC fighters > Prime Pride fighters.


Your original argument was that MMA is at it's best right now, not who you think can beat who from days past.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

BOOM said:


> Your original argument was that MMA is at it's best right now, not who you think can beat who from days past.


My focus is on the talent. If the fighters right now can beat the fighters from then, it proves that fighters now are more talented, and to me, in a competitive sport, talent should be everything. The better the fighters, the better the generation. UFC right now is more stacked than old UFC and Pride together.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> My focus is on the talent. If the fighters right now can beat the fighters from then, it proves that fighters now are more talented, and to me, in a competitive sport, talent should be everything. The better the fighters, the better the generation. UFC right now is more stacked than old UFC and Pride together.


You have no way of knowing if the fighters now can beat the fighters from back then in their primes. Easily one of the dumbest things I've read here to date next to the UFC being more stacked then peak Pride and the UFC combined.

Get a ******* clue.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

BOOM said:


> You have no way of knowing if the fighters now can beat the fighters from back then in their primes. Easily one of the dumbest things I've read here to date next to the UFC being more stacked then peak Pride and the UFC combined.
> 
> Get a ******* clue.


Okay, just for the record mods, you better not fuking infract me just because another person can't hold a conversation. I'm sick of getting warnings for this shit :thumb02:


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> I didn't low rep you, but I still dont get why anyone talks like Lesnar got anything handed to him. He was given the hardest run of opponents in UFC history, and faired pretty well against them.



Chaels run is Silva, Stann, Bisping, Silva, Jon Jones - i would say that is harder...not that it matters. Fact is Lesner got a shot from beating Heath Herring and losing to Mir. Not that great, did not deserve the shot.

Him and Chael got shots on there abilty to sell fights - as did the others i mentioned.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Joabbuac said:


> Chaels run is Silva, Stann, Bisping, Silva, Jon Jones - i would say that is harder...not that it matters. Fact is Lesner got a shot from beating Heath Herring and losing to Mir. Not that great, did not deserve the shot.
> 
> Him and Chael got shots on there abilty to sell fights - as did the others i mentioned.


Yeah but I think it's unfair to mention it when Brock actually got the belt. He proved that it was right to give him that oppertunity, and he had I think 2 defences against top level opposition.

I never actually thought about Chael's streak since it'll probably be a losing one. Still rank Brock's higher. Cutting out Herring for being B list, Couture (HOF world champion), Mir, Carwin, Velasquez, Overeem.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Yeah but I think it's unfair to mention it when Brock actually got the belt. He proved that it was right to give him that oppertunity, and he had I think 2 defences against top level opposition.
> 
> I never actually thought about Chael's streak since it'll probably be a losing one. Still rank Brock's higher. Cutting out Herring for being B list, Couture (HOF world champion), Mir, Carwin, Velasquez, Overeem.


Herring was not B-List. But anyway...Brock lost to 3 of them, and i think a lot of HW's would of beaten Couture at that point...


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Joabbuac said:


> Herring was not B-List. But anyway...Brock lost to 3 of them, and i think a lot of HW's would of beaten Couture at that point...


He lost to 2 of them in the sreak I mentioned. Herring is alright but he's not exactly a name I would have included in the great run. Like Stann and Bisping in your line up, he was def a weak link.

Couture might not have been in his prime form, but he was a hall of famer who at that time was holding the belt. That's a big thing for anyone to face.

Mir was still regarded as one of the biggest HWs at the time, and highly rated to once again beat Brock and take the title. It was a fight for Brock to lose against one of the most talented and popular HWs at the time.

Carwin was a killer. His streak of wins was amazing. An undefeated knockout specialist. That was a huge opponent to face.

Velasquez was yet another undefeated killer. Brock may have lost but I'm just talking streak of opponents, not streak of wins. Velasquez doesnt really need an introduction in this list.

Overeem, at the time regarded probably the best HW in the world, and still top 3 or joint 1st. It doesnt really get too much bigger for a heavyweight to fight Overeem, so it just caps that run off greatly.

Couture, Mir, Carwin, Velasquez, Overeem.

For someone to pull 3/5 from that list is pretty awesome, especially if they are "all hype" as a lot of people believed.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

Brock did great, im not arguing that - my point still stands he did not deserve the title shot at that point in time. (Him winning does not change that, nor would Sonnen winning mean he deserves this shot)


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Joabbuac said:


> Brock did great, im not arguing that - my point still stands he did not deserve the title shot at that point in time. (Him winning does not change that, nor would Sonnen winning mean he deserves this shot)


Yeah I get what you mean, but the whole "cheapens the title" side of things gets blurred if they actually win the belt. It almost makes the bookers look good, seeing a fight and predicting the competitveness.


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## Lovelace (Oct 26, 2012)

Your making it a bigger deal than it actually is, it's not that big of a deal bro, deal with it.


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