# Chael Sonnen On Hormone Replacement Therapy; May Return By Feb.



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

> Dave Meltzer had a discussion with UFC.com writer/German UFC commentator Oliver Copp on Meltzer’s subscription-only message board. The conversation revealed some interesting details regarding UFC middleweight contender Chael Sonnen.
> 
> According to Copp, Sonnen is receiving permanent treatment for Hormone Replacement Therapy.
> 
> ...


http://cagepages.com/

hopefully truth and justice prevail so the great one can return early.


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## Can.Opener (Apr 8, 2009)

How credible is this Dave Meltzer and his awesome subscription only forum?

I'm a huge Chael fan and would love this to be true, but it seems speculative until we hear from Chael directly on December 2nd.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Can.Opener said:


> How credible is this Dave Meltzer and his awesome subscription only forum?
> 
> I'm a huge Chael fan and would love this to be true, but it seems speculative until we hear from Chael directly on December 2nd.





> David A. Meltzer[1] (born October 24, 1961)[2] is the editor of the Wrestling Observer Newsletter (WON). Sports Illustrated senior writer Frank Deford has praised Meltzer's work, saying that "Meltzer, I believe, is the most accomplished reporter in sports journalism."[3] Meltzer had written for the Oakland Tribune, the Los Angeles Times, and The National. He has also been interviewed in the wrestling documentaries Hitman Hart: Wrestling with Shadows and Beyond the Mat.
> 
> Meltzer also has extensively covered mixed martial arts since UFC 1 in 1993. He has covered MMA for the LA Times and FoxSports.com, and was one of the three ringside judges for UFC 18. He has recently covered the sport for Yahoo! Sports, a UFC partner.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Meltzer


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## Can.Opener (Apr 8, 2009)

I love it!

We gunna get some ban chael for life threads bumped all up in this bitch December 2nd.


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## Cragly (Oct 26, 2010)

Can.Opener said:


> How credible is this Dave Meltzer and his awesome subscription only forum?
> 
> I'm a huge Chael fan and would love this to be true, but it seems speculative until we hear from Chael directly on December 2nd.


lol

He aint no dude working out of his garage using what randoms on a forum say to create stories.

Meltzer is one of the best sports journalists specifically pro wrestling and MMA in the world today. 

You can be guaranteed that whatever he reports, is on the mark.

http://www.f4wonline.com/


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

damn man i hope this is right i'd love to see him fight in australia against a high ranked opponent like maia again or palhares or wandy etc. sonnen is just priceless


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

LOL Victory for Chael Sonnen....to bad he's third in line now.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Sonnen vs Wandy in Australia would be fantastic


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

UFC_OWNS said:


> Sonnen vs Wandy in Australia would be fantastic




This fight would be hard to watch as a Wand fan. Sonnen has better inside boxing and an iron chin. And I don't think Wand could stuff a single takedown.


Wanderlei has been on a good roll, I'd hate to see him against Sonnen. Palhares vs Wand or Leben vs Wand... Aww yeah.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

If he gets cleared they will most likely put him against bisping instead of rivera.
unless wandy will be ready to fight.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

khoveraki said:


> This fight would be hard to watch as a Wand fan. Sonnen has better inside boxing and an iron chin. And I don't think Wand could stuff a single takedown.
> 
> 
> Wanderlei has been on a good roll, I'd hate to see him against Sonnen. Palhares vs Wand or Leben vs Wand... Aww yeah.


im ahuge fan of sonnen and wandy but i know wandy is way closer to retirement so i want sonnen to get up their for the title sooner. either way sonnen hasn't fought since 117 and wandy hasnt fought since 110 it makes sense


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Holy shit YES!

I hope this is 100% true I honestly do. I said I wasn't going to pass judgement until I actually heard from him and if this is true it's awesome.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

UFC_OWNS said:


> Sonnen vs Wandy in Australia would be fantastic


The cards down under are usually pretty strong! What city/ arena is it held at.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

TraMaI said:


> Holy shit YES!
> 
> I hope this is 100% true I honestly do. I said I wasn't going to pass judgement until I actually heard from him and if this is true it's awesome.


you and me both, an early chritmas present for me if its overturned


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

So Chael is basically receiving the same treatment he blasted Lance Armstrong about...LMFAO


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

No_Mercy said:


> The cards down under are usually pretty strong! What city/ arena is it held at.


Acer Arena in sydney guaranteed sellout again in 10 minutes, i wish it weas on the gold coast though but ill just take the plane up


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

It's a shame because they could make this a super middleweight card

Sonnen vs Bisping
Leben vs W. Silva
Palhares vs Akiyama
Sakara vs Rivera


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

John8204 said:


> It's a shame because they could make this a super middleweight card
> 
> Sonnen vs Bisping
> Leben vs W. Silva
> ...


and jds-cain to top it off, or vitor-silva:thumb02:


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm a big time anderson silva fan and a long time chael sonnen hater. F*** VItor vs silva...lets do sonnen vs silva 2. Chael sonnen needs an ass whooping and silva will give him one if healthy. This will shut all the haters/doubters that AS was not injured in their first fight.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

marcthegame said:


> I'm a big time anderson silva fan and a long time chael sonnen hater. F*** VItor vs silva...lets do sonnen vs silva 2. Chael sonnen needs an ass whooping and silva will give him one if healthy. This will shut all the haters/doubters that AS was not injured in their first fight.


if only it were that simple digh, now they already have set up vitor then yushin and then we have to wait for my boy sonnen to win 2 more times.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

marcthegame said:


> I'm a big time anderson silva fan and a long time chael sonnen hater. F*** VItor vs silva...lets do sonnen vs silva 2. Chael sonnen needs an ass whooping and silva will give him one if healthy. This will shut all the haters/doubters that AS was not injured in their first fight.


I don't see how it would be any different.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

UFC_OWNS said:


> if only it were that simple digh, now they already have set up vitor then yushin and then we have to wait for my boy sonnen to win 2 more times.


Dana is the damn president his ass should beable to make this fight. The way i see it vitor has not done shit in mw, but was the best opponent available since sonnen was out. Yushin already got his ass kicked by Sonnen. So right now he is the best MW behind anderson. I just want to see Chael get his ass kick.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

I fully believe if Sonnen is cleared then Sonnen will get the shot after Vitor...


Of course, this whole Silva/Sonnen 2 not happening because Yushin was promised hinges on the basis of Silva beating Vitor, whom I wouldn't look past. I'm not saying Vitor will win, but he definitely CAN win. Then if Silva loses, we'll see Silva/Sonnen 2 sooner than we though for a #1 contenders match?


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> I fully believe if Sonnen is cleared then Sonnen will get the shot after Vitor...
> 
> 
> Of course, this whole Silva/Sonnen 2 not happening because Yushin was promised hinges on the basis of Silva beating Vitor, whom I wouldn't look past. I'm not saying Vitor will win, but he definitely CAN win. Then if Silva loses, we'll see Silva/Sonnen 2 sooner than we though for a #1 contenders match?


I believe VItor can win to, but all these decision/ promises has been made with the idea of Chael being gone for a year. Now he may be back this winter which changes everything. The way i see it all Yushin did was beat Nate. Both Nate and Yushin have lost to Chael. At the end of the day Chael has done more to earn his rematch thant Yushin or vitor who has not jack shit. Silva vs Sonnen 2, Vitor vs Yushin for the number one contender.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

marcthegame said:


> I believe VItor can win to, but all these decision/ promises has been made with the idea of Chael being gone for a year. Now he may be back this winter which changes everything. The way i see it all Yushin did was beat Nate. Both Nate and Yushin have lost to Chael. At the end of the day Chael has done more to earn his rematch thant Yushin or vitor who has not jack shit. Silva vs Sonnen 2, Vitor vs Yushin for the number one contender.


dude seriously i and probably Tramai too hope you are right but then everyone will likely start crying and saying yushin deserves his shot before sonnen blah blah blah, i want the rematch asap i haven't heard a good rant by sonnen for a while.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

UFC_OWNS said:


> dude seriously i and probably Tramai too hope you are right but then everyone will likely start crying and saying yushin deserves his shot before sonnen blah blah blah, i want the rematch asap i haven't heard a good rant by sonnen for a while.


I`m not a sonnen fan but i want a rematch asap also. What will people bitch about lol? Okami lost to Chael. Plus who the hell really wants to see Okami vs sonnen or Silva. By not doing that fight it will save me 60 dollars cause both of them will beat Okami.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

guy incognito said:


> If he gets cleared they will most likely put him against bisping instead of rivera.
> unless wandy will be ready to fight.


Whoooaaa!!
15 minutes of Sonnen raping Bisping on the ground !?!
Anyone else interested in this?!


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

marcthegame said:


> I`m not a sonnen fan but i want a rematch asap also. What will people bitch about lol? Okami lost to Chael. *Plus who the hell really wants to see Okami vs sonnen or Silva.* By not doing that fight it will save me 60 dollars cause both of them will beat Okami.


not me


limba said:


> Whoooaaa!!
> 15 minutes of Sonnen raping Bisping on the ground !?!
> Anyone else interested in this?!


i very much am:thumb02:


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

"A lot of people who cut weight from an early age develop low levels of testosterone. The weight cutting process increases the possibility of damaging your endocrine system by 5,000 percent." 

Shocking - building yourself up to a certain weight with maximal muscle and then rapidly draining your body of it's liquids and electrolytes, making your plasma a viscous mess..... makes your body more prone to endocrine system, renal, cardiovascular, neurological, every system damage...and then pumping yourself full of saline and chugging gatorade - makes it all better in a day. Could that be any more vague, just the endocrine system, not just adrenals or anything the entire endocrine.

What I find pure BS is that long term testosterone administration is the best therapy for going through this weight cutting cycle. And further if he wins this 'case' the implication is that if any single fighter that voluntarily, actively cuts a certain amount of weight and tesosterone production decreases due to immediate effects, it is the physicians duty to use long term testosterone to ensure the paitents well being - big boiling crock of $hit. The APS or any sports medicine organization would never ever support this as proper therapy. This doctor is a paid crook - f*** him.

Chael isn't exactly as innocent as a race horse either, but if he was perscribed testosterone by a physician and he did declare it to fight commissions, etc. - the dude is legally innocent.

***

2nd EDIT: Sonnen has a case to be reinstated, after all he was 'following the doctor's advice' ---- but this physician prescribing testosterone should his license in the USA effective forever, further a full financial probe to see who is other 'paitents' are and what his fees are. I really hope to hear/read this doctor's testimony.

The only thing the doctor should have be doing is advising the fighter how detrimental the weight cutting is and prescribing medication to avoid acute renal failure/cardiac arrest not f***ing testosterone.


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## AlexZ (Sep 14, 2007)

ptw said:


> So Chael is basically receiving the same treatment he blasted Lance Armstrong about...LMFAO


Interesting, I wonder what his response will be to this.:confused02:


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> http://cagepages.com/
> 
> hopefully truth and *juice *prevail so the great one can return early.


Haha I actually missread this at first and thought wow such honesty from the Sonnen fans.
Seriously tho this is BS, Sonnen has found a hole to be able to legally juice, good for him. have your doctor say that you have low testo levels so that you need HRT. I don't buy it. Also if you do this treatment you are supposed to get normal testo levels, not high...because then it's just as bad as juicing illegal. tests said he had high levels right? so because it was part of a treatment, this is ok?


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Standing by for more info:


guy incognito said:


> http://cagepages.com/
> 
> hopefully truth and justice prevail so the great one can return early.


Being a wrestler I know that this is true to a lot of life long wrestlers.

To the Sonnen haters / bashers:


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAH. I feel like bringing back the threads where he was declared a cheat and a nazi. The Sonnen fans said something didn't seem quite right, and there wasn't enough info... yet that didn't stop him from being crucified.

Sounds perfectly legit to me. Especially if there's proof that this was previously reported to CSAC. His performance against Silva will not be tarnished. Viva la Sonnen!


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

mmaswe82 said:


> Haha I actually missread this at first and thought wow such honesty from the Sonnen fans.
> Seriously tho this is BS, Sonnen has found a hole to be able to legally juice, good for him. have your doctor say that you have low testo levels so that you need HRT. I don't buy it. Also if you do this treatment you are supposed to get normal testo levels, not high...because then it's just as bad as juicing illegal. tests said he had high levels right? so because it was part of a treatment, this is ok?





PheelGoodInc said:


> Standing by for more info:
> 
> 
> Being a wrestler I know that this is true to a lot of life long wrestlers.
> ...



Now, to be clear, I was one of those who was proclaiming as loud as I could that calling Sonnen a cheat is somewhat jumping the gun and we should allow him the benefit of the doubt. This news is great news on the surface... but the same still applies. I refuse to make any knee-jerk, "See!!! I told you Sonnen was not cheating" type comments just yet.

mmaswe82 makes a good point, that is worth considering. I'm *still* going to hold off making any judgements until we get the full truth.


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## Couchwarrior (Jul 13, 2007)

Man this really seems weird to me...:confused02: So, if your natural testosterone level is unusually low, you are allowed to roid a little bit and still compete? How low exactly does it have to be for you to be allowed to do this, and how much are you allowed to raise it, as everybody has got different testosterone levels anyway? 

I'm sorry, this information is new to me and I'm sure that if it's legal they have probably figured out a way to regulate it, but there seems to be a lot of variables to consider here.


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## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Standing by for more info:
> 
> 
> Being a wrestler I know that this is true to a lot of life long wrestlers.
> ...


It's interesting how you can be a Sonnen fan and Brock's #1 hater at the same time.  
Anyway, good to hear your "being a wrestler.." insight, if it is, ofcourse, true.


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## Anteries (Oct 22, 2010)

mmaswe82 said:


> Haha I actually missread this at first and thought wow such honesty from the Sonnen fans.
> Seriously tho this is BS, Sonnen has found a hole to be able to legally juice, good for him. have your doctor say that you have low testo levels so that you need HRT. I don't buy it. Also if you do this treatment you are supposed to get normal testo levels, not high...because then it's just as bad as juicing illegal. tests said he had high levels right? so because it was part of a treatment, this is ok?


I agree this totally stinks to high heaven, but on the other hand it will be fun to hear his whiny voice, trying to weasel himself out of this steroid charge.

The guy likes to talk, I can imagine him now shooting of his mouth about how he had the right to take steroids because of a medical condition. This is going to roll a hand grenade into the whole issue of steroids in MMA which would be a good thing.

I'm not an expert, someone help me out here, but I've heard many times that if a person takes steroid over a long period of the body loses the ability to make them itself.

Could this perhaps be a slightly more likely cause of any reduced testosterone production perhaps, anyone?


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## Guymay (Jul 6, 2009)

That's why i didn't bash Sonnen when the controversy came out.
always need to wait till the whole details are complete .

anyway WAR Sonnen !


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Taking steroids for a long time does the same thing.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Chael Sonnen you are an MMA GOD!

You handled this perfectly and professionally. I knew there was more to it then was being told. Dana White said it and i figured something around these lines was going to come out eventually. Cant wait to see you come back and finish what you started!!!!!

WAR CHAEL!!

NEVER MIND!!!!!!!
Us Chael Sonnen fans might be celebrating too soon.

Meltzer replied:



> The problem is if you look at photos of Sonnen from fight to fight, you notice far bigger and more muscular for Marquardt & especially Silva as compared to all of his previous fights.
> 
> It’s possible he has legit reasons for it. However, I do recall when the subject came up in 2008 that he California commission said they had never approved of anyone using hormone replacement therapy and gave the indication they likely never would because of the ease for abuse. Obviously that’s pre Okami fight and the guy in charge of the commission changed to someone not nearly as much of a hardass on the drug issue.
> 
> ...


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

Maybe this is the truth, maybe he just found an excuse to bail his way out of cheating, who gives a sh1t ether way he is still a ass hole, I just hope when he returns he does not end up back on top of the list in line for a title shot.

If he returns in feb like they are saying then since the title line up is all tied up with Victor getting his shot followed by Okami, its unlikely that anyone else will get a shot before the end of 2011, which could rightfully leave Chael needing at least one if not two more fights before he gets another shot, and I hope to god that one of those fights is Rousimar Palhares, in fact I hope thats who he returns to face Palhares, then lets see how good Sonnen is on the ground, because I got news for you guys Sonnen is slow and sluggish on his feet and lacks skill on the ground, I am so glad Silva beat him, I hate it when people talk about that fight as if he won, he lost due to his lack of ground skills.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

KillerShark1985 said:


> Maybe this is the truth, maybe he just found an excuse to bail his way out of cheating, who gives a sh1t ether way he is still a ass hole, I just hope when he returns he does not end up back on top of the list in line for a title shot.
> 
> If he returns in feb like they are saying then since the title line up is all tied up with Victor getting his shot followed by Okami, its unlikely that anyone else will get a shot before the end of 2011, which could rightfully leave Chael needing at least one if not two more fights before he gets another shot, and I hope to god that one of those fights is Rousimar Palhares, in fact I hope thats who he returns to face Palhares, then lets see how good Sonnen is on the ground, *because I got news for you guys Sonnen is slow and sluggish on his feet* and lacks skill on the ground, I am so glad Silva beat him, I hate it when people talk about that fight as if he won, he lost due to his lack of ground skills.


lol chael is one of the fastest guys at MW and what the hell does that have to do with fighting paul harris?


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## pipe (Jun 15, 2008)

sorry


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

pipe said:


>


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> Now, to be clear, I was one of those who was proclaiming as loud as I could that calling Sonnen a cheat is somewhat jumping the gun and we should allow him the benefit of the doubt. This news is great news on the surface... but the same still applies. I refuse to make any knee-jerk, "See!!! I told you Sonnen was not cheating" type comments just yet.
> 
> mmaswe82 makes a good point, that is worth considering. I'm *still* going to hold off making any judgements until we get the full truth.


He is a cheat. He got a crooked doc in CA to get him medical grade steroids. This doc should get suspended and have his license revoked by the AMA. Very much a drug of absuse. In the 5 schedules of controlled substances, it's a step above heroin and morphine as a controlled substance.

Sonnen can pretend he has the intelligence of a race horse and get reinstated - fine and dandy. That doctor, on the other hand, doesn't belong practicing medicine anywhere. 

Maybe Sonnen should get the Rua treatment and get the finest endocrinologist to get his 'hormone deficiency' problem fixed, Px-ed and Rx-ed, treated by a real physician (the guy he went to was a drug dealer with an M.D. behind his name.) I guarantee you testosterone isn't going to be part of the regimine unless he's so roided out that his adrenals aren't functioning or his cellular receptors have become severely desensitized.

Find me one instance in sports physiology or any medicine where hormone replacement therapy with testosterone makes any f**king sense as 1st, 2nd, 3rd whatever line of therapy for 2ndary renal/cardiac or primary dehydration/starving state.

Go visit the The American Physiology Society - i'm a member. Search scholar.google.com or pubmed.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> http://cagepages.com/
> 
> *hopefully truth and justice prevail so the great one can return early.*





TraMaI said:


> *Holy shit YES!*
> 
> I hope this is 100% true I honestly do. I said I wasn't going to pass judgement until I actually heard from him and if this is true it's awesome.





PheelGoodInc said:


> Standing by for more info:
> 
> 
> Being a wrestler I know that this is true to a lot of life long wrestlers.
> ...


*AMEN*


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## Anteries (Oct 22, 2010)

oldfan said:


> *AMEN*


Sing it from the mountain brother.

Looks like the Sarah Palin, Sonnel dream ticket is back on. Yay (ps sarcasm alert)


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## Abrissbirne (Jul 4, 2010)

I hope that he will get his rematch as soon as possible. The comission is just shit really. A comission who is not firing Cecil Peoples shouldn´t even be allowed to ban fighters...


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

I won't say I told you so. I won't get into a long rant. I'll keep it classy. And short.

War. Sonnen.


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## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

AMGPWR said:


> Umm, why are Sonnen fans happy again? He used illegal steroids regardless of what excuse he may have.


Because this means they aren't illegal.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

MrObjective said:


> He is a cheat. He got a crooked doc in CA to get him medical grade steroids. This doc should get suspended and have his license revoked by the AMA. Very much a drug of absuse. In the 5 schedules of controlled substances, it's a step above heroin and morphine as a controlled substance.
> 
> Sonnen can pretend he has the intelligence of a race horse and get reinstated - fine and dandy. That doctor, on the other hand, doesn't belong practicing medicine anywhere.
> 
> ...


you sir, rock:thumb02:


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## evzbc (Oct 11, 2006)

If he didn't do something bad, he would be all over the media.

I haven't heard a peep from him since this started... which leads me to believe, GUILTY! :shame01:


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

oldfan said:


> *AMEN*


 


So0o0o0o0o how soon will he be beack then/?????? I say Jan!!! lol


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

> The problem is if you look at photos of Sonnen from fight to fight, you notice far bigger and more muscular for Marquardt & especially Silva as compared to all of his previous fights.
> 
> It's possible he has legit reasons for it. However, I do recall when the subject came up in 2008 that he California commission said they had never approved of anyone using hormone replacement therapy and gave the indication they likely never would because of the ease for abuse. Obviously that's pre Okami fight and the guy in charge of the commission changed to someone not nearly as much of a hardass on the drug issue.
> 
> ...


 Dave Meltzer, NSAC

Thats from Cage Side Seats, but for some reason its not letting me put the link in now.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

AMGPWR said:


> Steroids are illegal in MMA. It doesnt matter who, how or why you took it. Why do some of you people want diffrent rules for Sonnen? quite pathetic if you ask me.:thumbsdown:


 

Ummmmmmmm they are not making rules.....Its not like Sonnen went down to Mexico and picked up a cycle of D-bol.....Thats just silly If he has got approved for it befor no reason this gets through it will be thrown out with a fine and them telling him to make sure you do the right paper work next time ....I dont think I like the way you say "you ppl"......lol


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

AMGPWR said:


> Steroids are illegal in MMA. It doesnt matter who, how or why you took it. Why do some of you people want diffrent rules for Sonnen? quite pathetic if you ask me.:thumbsdown:


I'm no expert but, I think there is a difference between steroids and hormone replacement therapy.

regardless, I'm gonna rep you for that so someone else csn have the pleasure of turning you red again:thumb02:


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

oldfan said:


> I'm no expert but, I think there is a difference between steroids and hormone replacement therapy.
> 
> regardless, I'm gonna rep you for that so someone else csn have the pleasure of turning you red again:thumb02:


The hormone replacement therapy would be a form of a steroid if it were being used to supplement testosterone.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

It wont take long lol


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

UFC 98










Sonnen at 104










117

And for shits and giggles, after a random WEC fight (not sure which >_>)










Honestly I'm not seeing a huge difference... nothing that couldnt be done without a bit of lifting at least.


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## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

TraMaI said:


> Honestly I'm not seeing a huge difference... nothing that couldnt be done without a bit of lifting at least.


This, and plus, it's obvious that he isn't flexing exactly the same in each picture.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> UFC 98
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
True true plus in those weigh-in pics he would be a little dehydrated so there that too


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

AMGPWR said:


> ^^^ No need to keep quoting big pictures. we get the point.


 


No need to not add to the thread like a child......You seem a bit off so it seems the point needs to be driven home


Edit :Told ya it wouldnt take long


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

G_Land said:


> No need to not add to the thread like a child......You seem a bit off so it seems the point needs to be driven home
> 
> 
> Edit :Told ya it wouldnt take long


Got him but he's not red enough yet. Need to spread


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

Prolly the same reason you called me a child and to eat your penis.........


Anyways back on topic......I hope Cheal can pull this off and make a stong showing


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

I'm blown away by that news. I know weight cutting is bad for you but I had no idea it could be that bad for you. And messing with your testosterone levels? That's brutal. 

Hopefully this is the case and he didn't cheat and can come back. He made me a big fan after the Marquardt, Okami and Silva fights.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

Calibretto9 said:


> I'm blown away by that news. I know weight cutting is bad for you but I had no idea it could be that bad for you. And messing with your testosterone levels? That's brutal.
> 
> Hopefully this is the case and he didn't cheat and can come back. He made me a big fan after the Marquardt, Okami and Silva fights.


 

If you just look at the over all big weight cut it has no choice but be that bad for you....5 lbs is nothing but when you cut way more you put your body through hell and back!


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

All the steroid talk aside, he should be using this time to work on his real problems. His nonexistent sub defense. Steroids cant fix that. Im not a chael fan, but I do hope he gets back sooner then later. I think the MW division is seriously lacking in real contenders when Bisping and Marquardt are getting close to title shots (Nate is the most overrated fighter on the planet).


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

HRT or Hormone Replacement Therapy is NOT the same is Anabolic Steroids. 

HRT = Agonist hormones that bring endogenous, natural testosterone to homeostatic levels. Meaning, it brings his testosterone to a natural, normal healthy male standard. Also, HRT is ethically prescribed, legally administered and medically monitored by an M.D. It can also be covered under medical insurance. Many, many, many men over 30 are on HRT. MOST HRT aren't even testosterone boosters, as much as they are estrogen reducers, in order to create a surplus of active circulating testosterone. Men "usually" go on HRT due to a lack of libido and they do it to get their normal sex drive back (and combat chronic, severe, all day lethargy, which is symptomatic of low test.). 

Anabolic Steroids = Introduction of excessive exogenous testosterones, taking test production to hyper levels, which brings about unnatural strength, unnnatural recovery and unnatural performance.

HRT is a legitimate form of testosterone therapy *any one of us could qualify* for if we submitted a pathology test revealing testosterone levels that were below the standard for a particular age group and if you were on it, you may gain "some" added physical beneifts based on the sheer aspect of having your test brought "back up" from an estrogen dominant endocrine system, like re-living some of the effects of puberty.

You're not buying HRT out the suitcase of some shady guy who comes by once a month at Extreme Couture.

I'm not defending Chael as much as this whole idea of mixing HRT with Anabolic Steroids. It's ridiculous.


----------



## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> HRT or Hormone Replacement Therapy is NOT the same is Anabolic Steroids.
> 
> HRT = Agonist hormones that bring endogenous, natural testosterone to homeostatic levels. Meaning, it brings his testosterone to a natural, normal healthy male standard. Also, HRT is ethically prescribed, legally administered and medically monitored by an M.D. It can also be covered under medical insurance. Many, many, many men over 30 are on HRT. MOST HRT aren't even testosterone boosters, as much as they are estrogen reducers, in order to create a surplus of active circulating testosterone. Men "usually" go on HRT due to a lack of libido and they do it to get their normal sex drive back (and combat chronic, severe, all day lethargy, which is symptomatic of low test.).
> 
> ...


 
Awesome post thank you:thumb02:


----------



## Dakota? (Dec 27, 2009)

AMGPWR said:


> Nice effort but Steroids are ILLEGAL in MMA. Hence, Sonnen was banned and is currently hiding under his moms bed.
> 
> but thanks for your contribution :confused05:


Holy shit this guy is annoying and clearly is not listening... more red coming.

ALSO WAR CHAEL!!!!


----------



## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

Dakota? said:


> Holy shit this guy is annoying and clearly is not listening... more red coming.
> 
> ALSO WAR CHAEL!!!!


 
A troll is a troll of course of course


----------



## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

AMGPWR said:


> Nice effort but Steroids are ILLEGAL in MMA. Hence, Sonnen was banned and is currently hiding under his moms bed.
> 
> but thanks for your contribution :confused05:


SERMs (or Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) the standard forms of HRT aren't anabolic steroids they are actually, medically qualified as a well, "estrogen blockers." SERMs actually do not "directly" elicit any effects on testosterone, only estrogen binding sites. Also, "Steroids" are not banned in MMA or any sport, "ANABOLIC steroids" are banned.

People with psoriasis and a wide range of ailments are prescribed steroidal topical creams, but guess what, not anabolic. Here's a list for ya.

http://www.psoriasis.org/netcommunity/sublearn03_mild_potency


Come at me when you can back up your position with a real argument and not regurgitating "Steroid bad....." :confused05: 

Thanks for pointing out the lack of validity in your position, it saved me from having to be a dick and pointing it out.


----------



## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

AMGPWR said:


> Listening to what? Its amazing watching you people try to make excuses for Sonnen.
> 
> Its quite pathetic.


There you go again "you people"....what do you mean???


----------



## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

VolcomX311 said:


> SERMs (or Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) the standard forms of HRT aren't anabolic steroids they are actually, medically qualified as a well, "estrogen blockers." SERMs actually do not "directly" elicit any effects on testosterone, only estrogen binding sites. Also, "Steroids" are not banned in MMA or any sport, "ANABOLIC steroids" are banned.
> 
> People with psoriasis and a wide range of ailments are prescribed steroidal topical creams, but guess what, not anabolic. Here's a list for ya.
> 
> ...


Shut it down boy, shut it down!

+rep


----------



## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> Shut it down boy, shut it down!
> 
> +rep


 
Layed the smack down didnt he???????


----------



## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

G_Land said:


> If you just look at the over all big weight cut it has no choice but be that bad for you....5 lbs is nothing but when you cut way more you put your body through hell and back!


It's especially interesting to me because I do BJJ competitions and cut weight for those. Though, I don't cut weight like these UFC guys do. I generally just cut down on the carbs two weeks out and don't eat the day of the weigh in. I don't think that's nearly as dangerous as these guys showing up the next day 15-18 pounds heavier, but still. I don't want to have to get on any kind of hormone treatment, that's for sure!


----------



## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

Calibretto9 said:


> It's especially interesting to me because I do BJJ competitions and cut weight for those. Though, I don't cut weight like these UFC guys do. I generally just cut down on the carbs two weeks out and don't eat the day of the weigh in. I don't think that's nearly as dangerous as these guys showing up the next day 15-18 pounds heavier, but still. I don't want to have to get on any kind of hormone treatment, that's for sure!


 
Well you do it right as I do I try to cut no more than 10 lbs at the most


----------



## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

G_Land said:


> Well you do it right as I do I try to cut no more than 10 lbs at the most


Same here. I cut 12 for my last fight but I was a fatass so it wasn't that hard lol


----------



## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> Same here. I cut 12 for my last fight but I was a fatass so it wasn't that hard lol


 
Haha Inter and I were talking about that the other night...I know guys that cut 10 lbs and they are a tiny 130 ...So 10 aint much for a meaty 195 such as myself lol


----------



## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> HRT or Hormone Replacement Therapy is NOT the same is Anabolic Steroids.
> 
> HRT = Agonist hormones that bring endogenous, natural testosterone to homeostatic levels. Meaning, it brings his testosterone to a natural, normal healthy male standard. Also, HRT is ethically prescribed, legally administered and medically monitored by an M.D. It can also be covered under medical insurance. Many, many, many men over 30 are on HRT. MOST HRT aren't even testosterone boosters, as much as they are estrogen reducers, in order to create a surplus of active circulating testosterone. Men "usually" go on HRT due to a lack of libido and they do it to get their normal sex drive back (and combat chronic, severe, all day lethargy, which is symptomatic of low test.).
> 
> ...


----------



## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

AMGPWR said:


> WOW, you are being utterly ridiculous just like the typical Sonnen fan, always trying to muddy the water by bringing up worthless garbage.
> 
> What does psoriasis or eczema cream have to do with anything? Chael Sonnen was found to have ABNORMALLY high testostorone levels which are the result of artificial Testostorone. That sh!t is illegal.
> 
> Once again thanks for your effort but you have failed.


 

Again you offer nothing to the arguement except "Im right you are wrong"


Is that you Alinzo???


MODS IP CHECK!!!!!


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

AMGPWR said:


> Listen G land, Let me break it down in a way that might make sense to you.
> 
> If I come to Mississippi with a bag full of Marijuana and I get pulled over by the cops. I will be charged with possesion and face whatever penalties they have. I cant simply say oh wait I'm from Cali and my doctor said its okay heres my "Marijuana card".
> 
> The sh!t doesnt fly. Now grow up and quit being so damn emotional about Chael Sonnen.


 

You are so full of shit. Weed and hormone replacement are 2 completly different things. Did you serously just try to compare weed to this?


----------



## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

AMGPWR said:


> Goodness gracious. I didnt say weed = illegal steroids.
> 
> I'm simply pointing out to you that rules are rules, regardless of the "circumstances". get it?


 


There is nothing to "get" your point is stupid. For one if I have a card for weed and got pulled over in Cali Im fine. Thus if I get a medicaly approved treatment that was approved by the commish Im fine....STFU


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

AMGPWR said:


> WOW talk about being SLOW. Your assingment for the night is to read every single one of the post in this thread and see if you understand them before typing a response.


 


Hahahaha Again you offer nothing I just used your logic against you and you try to attack my education .......


----------



## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Leed said:


> It's interesting how you can be a Sonnen fan and Brock's #1 hater at the same time.
> Anyway, good to hear your "being a wrestler.." insight, if it is, ofcourse, true.


Huge Sonnen fan. The guy is hilarious. His trash talk fits his personality and things just flow out of his mouth so smooth. He reminds me of a young chevy chase.

Brock on the other hand is just a douche to be a douche.

I've been wrestling since I was 12. I currently coach high school wrestling at my old school. I have a lot of friends who are professional fighters and life long wrestlers. Cutting serious weight over long periods of time does some jacked up things to your body... especially if not done properly.


----------



## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

G_Land said:


> Haha Inter and I were talking about that the other night...I know guys that cut 10 lbs and they are a tiny 130 ...So 10 aint much for a meaty 195 such as myself lol


Yeah I could probably cut to LW if I actually tried to as I'm a mid sized WW right now. I just decided to stay at WW since the weigh ins were night of and I didn't feel like cutting 35 lbs to fight a LW and just being totally fried.



AMGPWR said:


> Listen G land, Let me break it down in a way that might make sense to you.
> 
> If I come to Mississippi with a bag full of Marijuana and I get pulled over by the cops. I will be charged with possesion and face whatever penalties they have. I cant simply say oh wait I'm from Cali and my doctor said its okay heres my "Marijuana card".
> 
> The sh!t doesnt fly. Now grow up and quit being so damn emotional about Chael Sonnen.


First off: Steriods are legal, ANABOLIC STEROIDS are not. This is like comparing Salvia Divinorum to Marajuana, one is legal EVERY WHERE, on is not.The Chael situation, however, is like comparing Heroin to, say, a prescription for Tylenol 3. Tylenol 3 is completely legal when prescribed and, while it can be abused, used in an ethical way has no effects like a narcotic. If Chael is actually using the HRT for a condition in which he is seriously suffering along with clearing it with the CSAC, there is no harm done. The only thing they got Chael on was elevated levels of testosterone which, by itsself, has a very minor effect as a steroid. At least the way he's using it as shown by those pictures I posted. It might make him a little more aggressive and cocky and it may help him add a bit of strength but if he's using it the way it was intended it wouldn't do so any more than if he had his regular amount. 

Now, to clear something up, the reason he was flagged by the NSAC was because he had elevated testosterone, yes, but the reason he was flagged for that is because it's a widely recognized marker of anabolic steroid abuse. Given Chael's condition (again, if proven to be true), there is a good chance that his testosterone level fluctuate and if he's doing the HRT and his testosterone levels return to normal naturally as well, he's going to come up high. Hell, even if his body's production of testosterone goes up a little bit it could be enough, when combine with HRT, to red flag a test. There are many, many explanations for this outside the realm of "HE'S A ******* CHEAT!!! BAN HIM FOR LIFE!" but unfortunately you've let yourself become so fanatically against it that you're bias is showing and you're stuck in the other extreme. You're no better than the people who are on Chael's nuts saying that this instantly means he's clean with no proof as of yet.

Fact of the matter is that, yes, Chael has some explanation for what happened now, but there is still little proof behind it other than him just saying it. There is no more proof of him cheating than he had an elevated level of testosterone either, so the other side of the debate needs to chill as well until we get some factual results. Hell, even Kaizer himself said that he has "No idea what the numbers behind the test means, just that it's higher than normal." So stop attacking someone for providing a legitimate point of view and not saying Chael isn't not cheating, just explaining the process and treatment, when you sound just as fanatical as someone on the other end of the spectrum.



> Goodness gracious. I didnt say weed = illegal steroids.
> 
> *I'm simply pointing out to you that rules are rules, regardless of the "circumstances". get it?
> *
> * and I will like to add that I think you're coming of as a troll.


Okay, this is totally wrong and I want to tell you why. Have you ever heard of the "25 to life" sentence for murder? Do you know why the sentence ranges that far? BECAUSE CIRCUMSTANCES MATTER A SHITLOAD. Example: You get pulled over in MI carrying weed and get charged. What sentence do you get? Instant 25 years? Hell no. It depends on how much you were carrying, were you intending to sell it, did you have anything ELSE on you and the medical release card will go a long way in your defense regardless of state legality. If you're carrying the amount (or less) as dictated by your prescription, you have the card on you and you don't have a bunch of different paraphernalia on you that makes it look like you're intentionally using the system to get legal weed, you are probably coming out with a minimum sentence, which Chael will get provided his medical history and clearance from the CSAC is true. If, however, you have WAY more than your prescribed amount, get caught selling your "medicine" or look like you have about 60 different ways to party in your car and can't prove you actually need it for a legitimate reason you're going to get a much, much steeper sentence, as Chael will get if his entire medical defense is a complete sham.


----------



## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

AMGPWR said:


> This was a very good well thought out post and I can respect it. However, I do not buy into this crap about him getting treatments. I think he is a cheater and his non response proves it....That being said, we will have to agree to disagree, okay?
> 
> And please do me a favor and explain to that ignorant little child G_xxxd that I dont have times for silly games and he needs to respect the forum and its members if he wants to stick around.
> 
> Thanks and peace to all my peeps :thumbsup:


Firs toff, G_Land isn't the one throwing insults. He said your argument was flawed and it was. You pretty much just said you were right and the man with the well thought out and completely true post was wrong and stated your opinion as fact with no substance to back it up. I know you'r enew here but we don't have arguments like that on this forum. If you want to debate your points need to contain merit and evidence to the contrary outside of just saying "No you're wrong." That's why G got riled up and honestly most of our members will do the same. We at MMAF pride ourself in actually have intelligent debates on things like this and not just spouting off with nothing to back up our claims unlike some other forums (EX: Sherdog). 

That being said, there's no problem with you thinking he's a cheater still. None at all. That's your opinion, just don't state it like it should be everyone else's opinion as well. That's the entire point of discussion and debate, to sway opinions. What the other guys are trying to do isn't to tell you you're just wrong and that's it, they're trying to show you why the logic is flawed in your opinion, not attack you. They're trying to show you that what Chael is saying went wrong is completely and totally possible AND legal. Try to keep an open mind to others opinions instead of just being stuck on your own and a lot of possibilities open up as far as the reasoning behind events and they may even change your opinion on some things that you may have misjudged. I know this has happened to me quite a lot on this forum even on this issue alone, which is why my opinion is what it is on the situation (waiting for more evidence) because there have been a lot of wrongfully accused fighters of this type of thing. Hell, it's even swayed my view of some fighters. Before Chael was getting ready to fight Anderson I viewed him as little more than a Can (easy fight) for Anderson but after hearing some counter points to many of my debates it changed my mind and I saw how he actually WAS a legitimate contender and look how he did.

I, for one, am staying proudly on my fence until I hear some real evidence or see a sentence come down from the athletic commission.


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Chael had his HRT approved with the CALIFORNIA state athletic commission and didn't realize he needed separate approval from the NEVADA state athletic commission?

Makes sense.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

These type of discrepencies are what our government is made of. Chael is fitting in more and more in that department when his mma career is done.

If this plays out to be the case like was said in the OP, it's water under the bridge for me, get back to fighting.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

This is an excellent excuse on Chael's part. This could really work!


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> This is an excellent *excuse* on Chael's part. This could really work!



Lol. It sure could!


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> This is an excellent excuse on Chael's part. This could really work!


I actually think it will. To me it's BS. A good excuse and I wouldn't expect anything else from the politician that he is. He will get away with it and Sonnen fans will celebrate and I can understand that. But it sounds very fishy to me and really it's hard to prove he took testo and therfor had high values as the only thing stated was that he had "high values". So he's been sitting around ,talking to people, talking to his doctor etc. Trying to find a way to explain the testo levels in a legal way. this is what they came up with and they did a good job...I'm sure he will be let off the hook.
Now does this mean he and his doctor and/or lawyers are telling the truth...doubt it.
Also in respond regarding HRT, as far as I know HRT can indeed consist of both testosteron and growth hormones
and not just SERMS. But since we don't know what he took and probably never will know, it's kind of hard to debate.
IMO any treatment that may give you unnatural levels of testo or other hormones that can give you and edge in sports should be illegal and banned or rather just unban all of that stuff because so many uses it anyway.
Regarding Sonnen returning to the UFC well, you all know wich side I'm on, but I'm actually glad if he comes back sooner than later. As a fan I think we need as many fighters competing as possible and I'm looking forward to seeing that douche get submitted in the future 

how's that for a wall of text, lol sorry hope someone even reads all this stuff.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I also hope he comes back as soon as possible. It just hurts the entire devision and makes things less interesting. 

I also believe that over 50% use some sort of performance enhancing drug in the UFC alone.. so Chael was just one of the unlucky ones, thats all.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)




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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

He may have a legit excuse, but it is clear he abused this to get an advantage. This guy had 6 times the normal level of testosterone pumping through him...


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

why hasn't that troll on page 10 been banned yet? anyways for all you haters know this..

he may or may not have used anabolic steroids, you may hate his guts over his trash talk and the way he conducts himself, but ask yourself this, would you all have watched 117 if it was marquardt vs silva or palhares or okami, probably not and we wouldn't have a great fight with everything in it. you may hate his guts but you have to admit he is damn entertaining and he can sure as hell sell a fight and a great one at that.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)




----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> He may have a legit excuse, but it is clear he abused this to get an advantage. This guy had 6 times the normal level of testosterone pumping through him...


he just has sex alot


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> He may have a legit excuse, but it is clear he abused this to get an advantage. This guy had 6 times the normal level of testosterone pumping through him...


6 times?? Are you sure?

Do you have the actual number somewhere?


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

guy incognito said:


>


That is totally my new sig once I get to my computer!


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> 6 times?? Are you sure?
> 
> Do you have the actual number somewhere?


http://books.google.com/books?id=OG...o 1 T/E ratio&pg=PA162#v=onepage&q=6 &f=false


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## Couchwarrior (Jul 13, 2007)

VolcomX311 said:


> SERMs (or Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) the standard forms of HRT


I'm pretty sure those are used for hormone replacement therapy for menopausal women. Androgen replacement therapy for men (as in Sonnen's case) is, of course, completely different. Testosterone is by far the most important androgen in the body, and commonly used for androgen replacement therapy (example: http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100000132.html ) although artificial androgens might also be used.


oldfan said:


> I'm no expert but, I think there is a difference between steroids and hormone replacement therapy.


Yes, but the type of HRT we're talking about uses testosterone (a steroid hormone) or other androgens. I don't know if there is any androgen that is not a steroid, but I do know that they typically are.

I don't know if anyone here actually is unaware that testosterone plays a very significant role for muscle growth, but just to be sure, here's a source: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/84/8/2647


> During the 36 months of treatment, the testosterone-treated subjects experienced a significant decrease in fat mass (-2.9 ± 0.5 kg) and an increase in lean mass (1.9 ± 0.3 kg), whereas the placebo-treated subjects did not experience a significant change in either


So the hormones used for androgen replacement therapy are steroids, and they promote muscle growth, i.e. they are anabolic. Hence, they are anabolic steroids.

----

I'm not accusing Sonnen for getting a medical treatment for the wrong reasons, but I was a bit surprised to hear that you are allowed to compete in sports on a professional level if you're on it, as it seems like it might be quite easy to misuse to get an abnormally high testosterone level, which apparently was exactly what Sonnen had when he got tested.


----------



## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

Sounds legitimate! 

Then again he is a Republicans! Like all Republicans he has his bullshit down to an art form! LOL j/k! Sorry, I couldn't resist!


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## ESPADA9 (Oct 13, 2006)

I don’t see much difference in his appearance in the last 4 years, perhaps he looks a little more muscular but how much muscle mass can you really put on when you still have to weigh in at 185 and you never had much body fat to begin with?

The performance benefit in a higher testosterone level would be the ability to train harder and recover quicker (and possibly heal up from injuries better) the strength difference wouldn’t be a game changer.

There are plenty of losses experienced by high level big name MMA fighters AFTER testing positive for steroids.

But this does set a strange precedent for the sport.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> http://books.google.com/books?id=OG...o 1 T/E ratio&pg=PA162#v=onepage&q=6 &f=false


those are a lot of numbers Rofl..

I thought about a source with Chael and his testosterone level. 



ESPADA9 said:


> I don’t see much difference in his appearance in the last 4 years, perhaps he looks a little more muscular but how much muscle mass can you really put on when you still have to weigh in at 185 and you never had much body fat to begin with?
> 
> The performance benefit in a higher testosterone level would be the ability to train harder and recover quicker (and possibly heal up from injuries better) the strength difference wouldn’t be a game changer.
> 
> ...


See, I think thats the biggest misconseption people have about this subject. 

Sonnen did not use this to build up muscles or gain strenght.. he used it to be able to fight the fifth round like the first, without running out of gas.

A high level of testosterone doesn't make you tired. You can go on and on and on.

Look up the story of Floyd Landis and how he won the Tour the France.


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> those are a lot of numbers Rofl..
> 
> I thought about a source with Chael and his testosterone level.
> 
> ...


Basically, it's information on T/E levels.

If the commission take your urine and your T/E ratio is 6:1 or higher, than they bust you. 

A normal person's T/E ratio is 1:1.

No real word on Sonnen's ratio, but it was said that they were "Well above normal" which could indicate that it was even higher than 6 times.


----------



## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

guy incognito said:


>


Repped.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Repped.


free chael indeed + rep


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## suffersystem (Feb 4, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> Basically, it's information on T/E levels.
> 
> If the commission take your urine and your T/E ratio is 6:1 or higher, than they bust you.
> 
> ...


Well then 6 times the amount doesn't seem that odd to me if you can pass with 4 or 5 times the normal amount.......


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

suffersystem said:


> Well then 6 times the amount doesn't seem that odd to me if you can pass with 4 or 5 times the normal amount.......


it's to allow for standard biological variance. they used SCIENCE to determine that most athletes fall within these levels. and its not the only thing they take into account, they examine past tests as well to look for big leaps which are common with new roiders.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Also, note how it's a ratio. If he's using HRT and it's blocking his estrogen levels (like someone else said, that's a common way to do it), then the ratio would be way off like it was tested without him having an actual high level of testosterone, just a low estrogen level.


----------



## suffersystem (Feb 4, 2007)

HexRei said:


> it's to allow for standard biological variance. they used SCIENCE to determine that most athletes fall within these levels. and its not the only thing they take into account, they examine past tests as well to look for big leaps which are common with new roiders.


I just don't think they flagged him because he tested extremely high, he told them during the test he may fail it, wouldn't that be reason enough to flag his sample and be thourough with it?


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## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

There's a better chance that he tested low instead of high. The low estrogen levels from HRT will swing the ratio out of balance. That ratio still cannot show an abuse for athletic advantage. I keep myself neutral until the full facts are out but everyone needs to calm down and use some understanding


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

> There's a better chance that he tested low instead of high. The low estrogen levels from HRT will swing the ratio out of balance. That ratio still cannot show an abuse for athletic advantage. I keep myself neutral until the full facts are out but everyone needs to calm down and use some understanding


this, hard.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

TraMaI said:


> Also, note how it's a ratio. If he's using HRT and it's blocking his estrogen levels (like someone else said, that's a common way to do it), then the ratio would be way off like it was tested without him having an actual high level of testosterone, just a low estrogen level.


The "E", isn't estrogen though. It is Epitestosterone.


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> those are a lot of numbers Rofl..
> 
> I thought about a source with Chael and his testosterone level.
> 
> ...


This! and also we don't know how long he's been on the stuff, maybe he's been roiding his whole career but just messed up his cycle now, knew it would show and got caught.



> The "E", isn't estrogen though. It is Epitestosterone


And this!


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Cant we all just wait a bit longer before jerking off our knees again?


----------



## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> Cant we all just wait a bit longer before jerking off our knees again?


And also this! I give it a rest for now. Noone really knows so debate will go nowhere.


----------



## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Roflcopter said:


> The "E", isn't estrogen though. It is Epitestosterone.


Oh, cool! I thought someone said it was Estrogen? Thanks.


----------



## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> The "E", isn't estrogen though. It is Epitestosterone.


Then I was wrong partly.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

suffersystem said:


> I just don't think they flagged him because he tested extremely high, he told them during the test he may fail it, wouldn't that be reason enough to flag his sample and be thourough with it?


I never thought about this before you just said that, but does the fact that he knew he was going to fail prove that he knew he was using something that was going to make him fail the tests, so therefore he went into that fight well aware that he had an illegal advantage due to whatever substance.

This to be makes it more doggy, if he was in training for a fight you would think he would stop using whatever substance he knew was illegal until after the fight, or should he really need it that bad like a life death situation, then pull out of the fight for medical reasons, had that of been the case should the doctors even not of pulled in out of the fight.

This leads me to believe this is all BS, I think that Sonnen was using this knowing full well that it was aiding his training and that that was the primary reason he was using the substance, the hormone replacement therapy excuse is nothing more than a back fall he had in place ready to fall back on should he get caught.

You know I respected him more when he come clean and just said "Look I cheated, I am sorry now I will serve my bad and take my punishment", but now he is just been deceitful and has obviously just planned himself a excuse that he thinks the board and the fans will go for, hormone replacement, this is just BS if I ever heard it, its like your mom finding weed in your wardrobe and swearing to her its not yours.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

KillerShark1985 said:


> I never thought about this before you just said that, but does the fact that he knew he was going to fail prove that he knew he was using something that was going to make him fail the tests, so therefore he went into that fight well aware that he had an illegal advantage due to whatever substance.
> 
> This to be makes it more doggy, if he was in training for a fight you would think he would stop using whatever substance he knew was illegal until after the fight, or should he really need it that bad like a life death situation, then pull out of the fight for medical reasons, had that of been the case should the doctors even not of pulled in out of the fight.
> 
> ...


No. It was hormone replacement therapy because his hormones were naturally low. Try training for a fight or any physical competition without the proper amount of hormones... let alone at UFC level. He told it to CSAC in the past, and THEY APPROVED THE SAME THING HE WAS BUSTED FOR. 

This all sounds completely legitimate to me if true. It's not like he was pumping some anabolic steroid into his system.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

This is a very well thought out and calculated "excuse" by the Sonnen camp. 

Testosterone is an anabolic steroid, period. There are plenty of doctors out there who would "prescribe" it for someone who is on the lower side of normal or below normal. "Normal" testosterone levels can vary anywhere from 300-900 ng/dl. 

Sonnen may have low levels of testosterone naturally, or he could have permanently damaged them by cutting weight (unlikely, because it's usually temporary), or by using steroids in the past ( also unlikely, because it's also usually temporary), but it wouldn't be very hard to make a testosterone lab test come back low and have a doc prescribe it for you - just take testosterone for a month, stop, then go in for a lab and your levels will be low. 

Either way, if his normal levels are 300 and he can find a doc to prescribe him testosterone to raise it to 900, he has effectively tripled his testosterone level while keeping it within the "normal" range, but there's an advantage to having a 900 level than a 300 level in terms of body composition, muscle mass, recovery ability, and aggression. 

If this story is true, he took steroids, period.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

mastodon2222 said:


> This is a very well thought out and calculated "excuse" by the Sonnen camp.
> 
> *Testosterone is an anabolic steroid, period.* There are plenty of doctors out there who would "prescribe" it for someone who is on the lower side of normal or below normal. "Normal" testosterone levels can vary anywhere from 300-900 ng/dl.
> 
> ...


no it is not, if it was they wouldn't sell it in sports and workout stores


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

VolcomX311 said:


> HRT or Hormone Replacement Therapy is NOT the same is Anabolic Steroids.
> 
> HRT = Agonist hormones that bring endogenous, natural testosterone to homeostatic levels. Meaning, it brings his testosterone to a natural, normal healthy male standard. Also, HRT is ethically prescribed, legally administered and medically monitored by an M.D. It can also be covered under medical insurance. Many, many, many men over 30 are on HRT. MOST HRT aren't even testosterone boosters, as much as they are estrogen reducers, in order to create a surplus of active circulating testosterone. Men "usually" go on HRT due to a lack of libido and they do it to get their normal sex drive back (and combat chronic, severe, all day lethargy, which is symptomatic of low test.).
> 
> ...


Sorry bro, no disrespect but you're wrong on this. HRT is testosterone, either taken by injection or by a transdermal cream or gel Androgel, a brand advertised on TV is testosterone = an androgenic/anabolic steroid.
You can use it or abuse it (depending on the dose), but it provides the same benefit of being able to increase or maintain muscle while dieting, speeding recovery from training, etc etc.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> 6 times?? Are you sure?
> 
> Do you have the actual number somewhere?


If he had 6x normal, then it's steroid abuse, no question about it.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> no it is not, if it was they wouldn't sell it in sports and workout stores


Testosterone = steroid. You can look it up if you want. Any testosterone that they might sell in a store is such a small amount that it doesn't measurably raise your T levels at all and is a hoax.


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## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

mastodon2222 said:


> This is a very well thought out and calculated "excuse" by the Sonnen camp.
> 
> Testosterone is an anabolic steroid, period. There are plenty of doctors out there who would "prescribe" it for someone who is on the lower side of normal or below normal. "Normal" testosterone levels can vary anywhere from 300-900 ng/dl.
> 
> ...





Sorry but your knowledge of biology and human anatomy is rudimentary at best.

First it is not easy to make a testosterone test come back low not to mention they don't prescribe HRT based on 1 test.

Second Sonnen tested positive for natural testosterone. 

Natural testosterone has a half-life of 10 minutes in the human body and isn't effective as a PED. 

That is sole reason synthetic anabolic steroids were developed and why natural testosterone is not used as a PED.

Third the difference between a testosterone level of 300 to 900 ng/dl is minimal. That's why it's called the "normal" range.

Fourth no doctor is going to prescribe hormone replacement therapy if your testosterone level is 300; it would have to lower than 300 for a sustained period of time.

The reality is simply taking steroids doesn't make an athlete a cheater. Anabolic steroids have legitimate medical uses and are prescribe to athletes and non-athletes daily.

If Sonnen was trying to cheat I suspect he would have taken a synthetic anabolic steroid like winstrol. You know...something that actually works.


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## Couchwarrior (Jul 13, 2007)

UFC_OWNS said:


> no it is not, if it was they wouldn't sell it in sports and workout stores


Yes, testosterone is an anabolic steroid and there's no way around it. If you still don't understand the definition, re-read my above post. Btw, I don't know about Australia, but in my country, testosterone is definitely not sold in sports or workout stores, at least not legally.


zarny said:


> Second Sonnen tested positive for natural testosterone.
> 
> Natural testosterone has a half-life of 10 minutes in the human body and isn't effective as a PED.
> 
> That is sole reason synthetic anabolic steroids were developed and why natural testosterone is not used as a PED.


But even if we don't know the exact method of how he did it (patches, etc?), the fact remains that he must have found a way to do it, right? Considering that his levels were abnormally high.


> Fourth no doctor is going to prescribe hormone replacement therapy if your testosterone level is 300; it would have to lower than 300 for a sustained period of time.


Are you basing this on the assumption that every doctor in the world is unbribable?


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> no it is not, if it was they wouldn't sell it in sports and workout stores


No dude, they don't sell testosteron in sports stores. They might sell suppliments said to raise your levels, not real testo. And these supplements are either worthless made up crap, or raises your levels so little it's not even noticed.



> Sorry bro, no disrespect but you're wrong on this. HRT is testosterone, either taken by injection or by a transdermal cream or gel Androgel, a brand advertised on TV is testosterone = an androgenic/anabolic steroid.
> You can use it or abuse it (depending on the dose), but it provides the same benefit of being able to increase or maintain muscle while dieting, speeding recovery from training, etc etc.


This is true, I've seen a lot of these HRT meds as I work in a pharmacy and they are all steroids.



> Sorry but your knowledge of biology and human anatomy is rudimentary at best.
> 
> First it is not easy to make a testosterone test come back low not to mention they don't prescribe HRT based on 1 test.
> 
> ...


1. He never said that Sonnen "made" his tests come back low. Ha said maybe he is on the lower side naturally.

2. It was never said that it was "natural testosteron" just that his levels where to high...T/E ratio was messed up.

3. Reason why chemical testo is used and not natural is because it's way easier to make it in a lab than to extract it from other humans to use. Im pretty sure if they never invented chemical testo and had to use "natural" as PED/medical use then they would be able to bind it to some kind of slower ester anyway.

4. the difference between 300 to 900 ng/dl might be small, but you would notice a difference in performance. Also noone knows what his levels are, Mastodon2222 was just making an example I believe.

5. You say no doctor would perscribe HRT if your level is 300? thats exaclty the point made...it shouldn't be perscribed, but many doctors would anyway. Just like many doctors would perscribe you drugs even if you don't need them. Trust me there are those kinds of doctors.

6. You are correct that taking an anabolic steroid has legitimate medical uses for sure. But when it comes to sports its very murky territory and could very well be abused. Also having higher than normal levels for an elite athlete is not OK even if he's on HRT. Other than that I'm suspecting this is just a coverup. Sonnens doctor probably perscribes/administers way higher doeses than needed and he just uses it as PED, but hoping that having a doctors perscription is going to save him.
You can not compare using TRT/HRT outside of sports to within them.

7. If he was to take a common steroid such as winstrol so close to the fight, he would have been caught. Im sure he takes stuff like that while just training and cycling, like so many others do. But if u want PED in your blood while competing you need a good excuse, hence the HRT.

All this said I still think Sonnen will get away with it. He's a proffessional liar and obviously has a doctor on his side. So I think he will be freed with a slap on the wrist. Still doesn't mean he didn't cheat.

Since none of us know what really took place it's hard to debate. But the points you made are invalid IMO, no disrespect to your points, I just fail to see the relevance. I don't claim to KNOW for a fact that he cheated even if it might come across like I think I do when I post this stuff. I'm just really convinced that he did, looking at the circumstances and his typical personality of a pathological liar.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Handy that, Chael goes all silent when the case comes about and now he's on 'hormone treatment'.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Nefilim777 said:


> Handy that, Chael goes all silent when the case comes about and now he's on 'hormone treatment'.


lawyers.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

guy incognito said:


> lawyers.


they are great when they're on your side :thumb02:


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Liars more like it.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Nefilim777 said:


> Liars more like it.


hey hey hey

lying is a point of view :thumb02:

all i have to say is i have 0 DUI' and no convictions :thumb02:


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

xeberus said:


> hey hey hey
> 
> lying is a point of view :thumb02:
> 
> all i have to say is i have 0 DUI' and no convictions :thumb02:


Hahaha, says the forum drunk.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Firstly, natural means extracted from a cadaver or bovine. Also where you get the half life number from, seems a bit way off for even IV administered testosterone.

The 300-900 ng/dl range (my lab book has 200-800 ng/dl for males) is what you have free unbound testosterone in your blood... not the active site, the cell receptors. You know what unbound testosterone does...nothing. 

Measurement of usage is measured by easily isolated metabolites excreted in the urine. 

A steroid, is fat soluble (polar) meaning you can swallow it, inject it, take it up your ass..it'll get diffused to where it's needed, it has high 'bioavailability' Like cortisone, you can put it on your skin and the body will pass right through cell membranes. Compare to say insulin or HGH (non-polar hormones) which must be injected.

The 6:1, T:E means he had a lot more testosterone in his body than his body needs (to metabolize, to process, to attach to cellular receptors). A man his age it would seem unnatural.

The ratio gives you part of what's happening (probable steroid abuse) the real and most relevant indicator is how much testosterone are his cells using measured easily by measuring 17 carbon ketosteroids which are the metabolites of processed testosterone, stuff that's been used up, diffused back out and in to the kidneys and goes out in to the urine, specimen of choice for measuring all fat soluble (polar) hormones in the body. Urinalysis is actually the gold standard for measuring levels, add reagent to isolate and read levels of ketosteroids. 

***

Bottom line, the guys a pathological liar and cheat, he wanted to get his hands on the "best stuff" and he did it through medical channels and was using it right up till the fight. He knew exactly what he was doing. 

I honestly don't care about his reinstatement time or on-paper vindication potential if he wins or whatever. The only thing that would matters is this guy go see a non-crooked physician examine him and help him fix his 'condition' *(asterik)* before he's fighting again.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

this why i dont go too overboard when someone fails a drug test..... there are soooo many banned substances which people think taking anyone of those banned substances will turn you into popeye after taking a can a spinach..... but that is not the case at all

lets wait for the facts before we go on a witch hunt...


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

As a law student, I must say, this page in particular makes me


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Nefilim777 said:


> Hahaha, says the forum drunk.


hey i do not encourage drunk driving. 



Canadian Psycho said:


> As a law student, I must say, this page in particular makes me


hey lawyers do both good and bad 

so no worries, you can always be one of the good guys :thumb02:


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> As a law student, I must say, this page in particular makes me


LOL since when do Canadians have laws....next thing you'll tell me Albanians have souls.


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## TheOldAssassin (Sep 17, 2010)

If Rashad does move down to 185 and fights Sonnen, he (Sonnen) will need to replace a lot more than just hormones afterwards!


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