# Jon Jones' legacy and P4P status



## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

Long time lurker here, and I think this is the first time I've ever bothered to start a thread. I'm bored, recovering from surgery, and this topic has been bothering me for some time.

Jon Jones' rise has certainly been meteoric, and the UFC currently ranks him #2 pound for pound. However, I've always felt that status was undeserved. Allow me to explain why.


Let's go over Jones' UFC career

André Gusmão, Stephan Bonnar, Jake O'Brien, Matt Hamill - All entry level fights. Not much to discuss here.

Brandon Vera - Used to shine in the old, shallow heavyweight division of the UFC. People always touted his potential, but he never came close to being elite in the light-heavyweight division.

Vladimir Matyushenko - A fairly legit guy, but long past his prime and I believe he was the oldest active member of the roster when Jones fought him? Also much smaller than Jones.

Ryan Bader - Good athlete, but always had plenty of holes in his game and has never looked elite. Jones also still had significant physical advantages over him.

Maurício Rua - I love me some Shogun, but we all know he is horribly inconsistent, and his best days have been behind him for quite some time. He had no cardio and never even got started in the Jones fight. Also much smaller than Jones.

Quinton Jackson - Used to be fairly legit, but hasn't been the same the last few years and obviously lost a lot of his interest and motivation. I also don't think his training has been great in a very long time.

Lyoto Machida - Crafty guy and had his moments, but let's be honest, he's a natural middleweight. Gave up a huge size and reach disadvantage to Jones. All that speed is pretty nullified when he has to cover twice as much distance as Jones.

Rashad Evans - Another natural middleweight who gave up significant physical disadvantages. Also already seemed to be on the down slope of his career at that point.

Vitor Belfort - Yet another middleweight. Came in as a late replacement, injured, and might have even got the win if he'd committed more to that armbar. Not bad for a guy who really shouldn't have even been fighting Jones.

Chael Sonnen - And finally, another middleweight who is even coming off a loss. Sonnen is at a severe physical disadvantage, and Jones is a nightmare stylistic match-up for him.


To sum it all up, while Jon Jones certainly had an impressive run, I feel that was more due to his opponents and match-ups than anything else. I still don't think he's ever truly been tested. I don't understand how you can give him such a high ranking when compared to other champs who have been much more tested.

Every single Jones fight has been a mismatch before it even gets started. He has a freakish reach advantage over everyone he faces, comes from a naturally athletically gifted family, and has pretty much faced exclusively middleweights, or guys who are on the down slope of their careers, or both for his entire title run.

Compare that to guys like GSP or Aldo. They have been thoroughly tested against guys just as big if not bigger, just as athletic if not more so, and guys just as much in their primes. Not a single person in the light-heavyweight division convinces me of being a threat to Jones. The only real close guy size-wise would be Gustaffson, but I've never been sold on him. He's always seemed lanky and awkward to me. Not nearly the natural athlete Jones is. A guy like Davis has the athleticism, but has large holes in his game, particularly in the striking.

So, really, who else is there to test a guy who was so tailor made for that division? Natural freak athlete with crazy reach, youth, decent skills and the ideal frame. The only other guy who was on the horizon was Dan Henderson. Notice a pattern? Another guy who spent a great deal of his career at middleweight, is pretty one-dimensional and *42 years old*. Glover Teixeira? Not sold on that, either.

I'm rambling here, but I really just don't see how you can rate a guy who has never truly been tested and happens to be the only guy truly tailor made for the shallowest division in the UFC so highly. Even the heavyweight division has more depth with guys like Velasquez, Dos Santos, Cormier, Overeem and Werdum likely able to beat each other on any given night.

So, thoughts? Comments? Agree/disagree?


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

_redruM_ said:


> Long time lurker here, and I think this is the first time I've ever bothered to start a thread. I'm bored, recovering from surgery, and this topic has been bothering me for some time.
> 
> Jon Jones' rise has certainly been meteoric, and the UFC currently ranks him #2 pound for pound. However, I've always felt that status was undeserved. Allow me to explain why.
> 
> ...


There're holes in supermans cape - jones was 5 seconds away from having his right arm served up at fogo de chao by vitor belfort.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

The LHW division used to be one of the strongest but has been rather lacking for a while. Almost every fighter has some sort of significant hole in their game or is past their prime. Jones is one of the few young guys that is a good all around fighter and he definitely is dangerous but I too question how good he actually is(I don't think he is near A. Silva level for example). 

Gustaffson is one of the toughest challenges for Jones imo. Machida is right up there as well and gave Jones a few issues but it was fairly predictable that Jones would win if he could get his hands on Machida which he eventually did.


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## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

mastodon2222 said:


> There're holes in supermans cape - jones was 5 seconds away from having his right arm served up at fogo de chao by vitor belfort.


Which is exactly my point. An injured, undersized, late replacement Vitor Belfort nearly pulled it off. What would happen if he finally faced an elite, athletic LHW in their prime who can put it all together? Until we know the answer to that, I don't think he should be rated so highly.


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## Alessia (Sep 1, 2011)

Jones came into LHW Divison simply at the right time, in my opinion.

You can't fault him for that, it's not his fault. But, there is no way I'd rank him as #2 P4P.


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## Freiermuth (Nov 19, 2006)

I think he's the real deal skill-wise. Can't argue much of what you said about his opponents but would like to add that when facing someone who is really skilled like Jones, you tend to look bad no matter what else is going on.


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## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

Alessia said:


> Jones came into LHW Divison simply at the right time, in my opinion.
> 
> You can't fault him for that, it's not his fault. But, there is no way I'd rank him as #2 P4P.


Nah, it's not his fault. It just really is very telling looking back at his run. Especially considering his last two defenses in a row are against middleweights, one of whom lost his last fight.

I do think he's a good fighter. I just think people often overlook how easy of a path he's had, and I don't think he's earned the kind of status that GSP, Silva and Aldo have. I'd really like to see him against a truly elite guy who isn't disadvantaged in nearly every way going into the fight and see how he does for once.

Until that day, he still remains a pretty big question mark to me.


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## Sports_Nerd (Apr 23, 2012)

There's a phrase we have around here that translates roughly to "painting the target around the arrow."

That's pretty much what you did here. Jon Jones has walked through a bunch of tough opponents, several of them had been champions not long before they got served. Saying "oh, they just weren't that good" after he demolished them is nonsense.


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## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

Sports_Nerd said:


> That's pretty much what you did here. Jon Jones has walked through a bunch of tough opponents, several of them had been champions not long before they got served. Saying "oh, they just weren't that good" after he demolished them is nonsense.


What I'm saying is he has never had to face someone truly elite, in their prime, who truly belongs in the division. Can you argue that? Also, I'm not just saying it after the fact, I've been saying it all along. In fact, the only advantage you could really argue any of his opponents having over him is experience, but that is thoroughly nullified by every other disadvantage working against them.

The bottom line is, I can honestly say I have never seen Jones win an equally matched bout purely by way of being the better fighter.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Jon Jones is the real deal, but simply came into the LHW division at the right time. Who really is relevant anymore in that division? Was Shogun ever the same Shogun from Pride? But he is the king pin of that division and will be for a long time.

If he continues he may go down as the goat, but that belongs to silva right now. There is no one on Jone's list of opponent that can beat Anderson.

Anderson Silva is technically 3-0 at lhw and really has only landed a few strikers in each fight. He also has clowned people worst than Jones during his entire career. At the end for Jones to secure his legacy he will have to face Silva. 

The only downside to that fight is father time will catch up to silva before it happens.


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## MikeHawk (Sep 11, 2009)

_redruM_ said:


> What I'm saying is he has never had to face someone truly elite, in their prime, who truly belongs in the division. Can you argue that? Also, I'm not just saying it after the fact, I've been saying it all along. In fact, the only advantage you could really argue any of his opponents having over him is experience, but that is thoroughly nullified by every other disadvantage working against them.
> 
> *The bottom line is, I can honestly say I have never seen Jones win an equally matched bout purely by way of being the better fighter.*


But, how can you fault Jones for that? A lack of competition shouldn't negatively reflect on his career. Chuck never fought a single great striker but he's considered one of the best LHW's for knocking out grapplers.

When you step up the level of the game like Jones has, it makes everyone look worse in comparison. If anything, that should be a credit to him which is hard for me to say because I hate him as a person.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Yeah, see regardless of Jones resume it's still twice the resume as the number #1 guy. Anderson Silva fought 6 guys that have been cut from the UFC all during his title reign. Jon Jones has fought more UFC champions and done so in less fights. Jones has also never lost a decision, been stopped in a fight, and aside from a terrible DQ would be unbeaten right now. 

Also I don't know where this "shallow LHW" division comes from. Are they old...yep but you know what's worse than being old, being a top five ranked fighter with one win over another top ten guy (Bisping). Fighters can walk into the top ten at MW, guys can go from prelims to contenders practically overnight while at LHW it took years before people took Gustaf seriously. Davis had to be unblemished. Bader and Nog needed massive upsets to return to the rankings.

You can argue that Jones doesn't deserve the claim of p4p best in the world, but you can't then call Anderson the number 1. The reality is one guy has been on a long winning streak and defeated the best of the best in their primes and that's GSP.


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## Ludinator (Mar 15, 2012)

Stupidist thread ever. You have basically just gave an excuse for the whole devision. Jon Jones is a LH fighter, he is not a heavyweight and doesn't come close to there size. At the weigh inn's last night middleweight Chael was alot bigger than Jones. Jones has height and reach, he's got the perfect fighting physique and if guys are smaller than hi
Then that's not his fault. Jones is 230 tops, half of the names you mentioned are heavier than that.


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## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

MikeHawk said:


> But, how can you fault Jones for that? A lack of competition shouldn't negatively reflect on his career.


Shouldn't it? Tyson's greatness was long debated because of the competition he faced. Like I said, I don't fault Jones. I just really find it hard to measure how great he really is, given the state of the LHW division.



> Chuck never fought a single great striker but he's considered one of the best LHW's for knocking out grapplers.


He's considered one of the best, because he was dominant over other guys who were also in their prime and who belonged in the division. At least, as far as the old breed went. Jones is one of the new breed which, unfortunately, the rest of the LHW division is sorely lacking. 

Chuck's stock also dropped a bit after the first loss to Rampage, and more so after the second.



> When you step up the level of the game like Jones has, it makes everyone look worse in comparison. If anything, that should be a credit to him which is hard for me to say because I hate him as a person.


I don't deny he's above everyone else right now. All I'm saying is that we still don't know how good he really is, because nearly all of his fights have been against guys undersized, over the hill, or both.



John8204 said:


> Yeah, see regardless of Jones resume it's still twice the resume as the number #1 guy. Anderson Silva fought 6 guys that have been cut from the UFC all during his title reign. Jon Jones has fought more UFC champions and done so in less fights. Jones has also never lost a decision, been stopped in a fight, and aside from a terrible DQ would be unbeaten right now.


That's a good point, and I do consider Anderson's run a little overrated, as well. I've never been too impressed with the UFC MW division, either. It's full of guys who are either great at 1 thing but lacking in others like Chael, or moderately good at everything but great in nothing like Bisping. I still think Vitor is the biggest threat in that division. Haven't seen enough of Weidman to be convinced, either way.

Anderson, however, has at least gone up and fought larger guys, doing things never done to them before in the process. He also doesn't regularly enjoy a 10 inch reach advantage over his opponents, or fight natural welterweights, aside from maybe Marquardt.

But yes, both guys are big fish in somewhat small ponds. You'd have to see Anderson as more proven, though.



> Also I don't know where this "shallow LHW" division comes from. Are they old...yep but you know what's worse than being old, being a top five ranked fighter with one win over another top ten guy (Bisping). Fighters can walk into the top ten at MW, guys can go from prelims to contenders practically overnight while at LHW it took years before people took Gustaf seriously. Davis had to be unblemished. Bader and Nog needed massive upsets to return to the rankings.


I actually think that's partly to do with the UFC doing a better job of trying to build guys up at LHW. Probably because they know how bad of shape it's in. Bader was given favorable match ups for quite a while, as were Davis and Gustaffson. When Davis finally had to face a legit guy, he lost. Gustaffson has never really impressed me. Another guy who seems to be alright in everything but doesn't excel at anything. Slightly above average striking, maybe, but he did go the distance rather unimpressively with a beat up/washed up Thiago Silva.

The most impressive win for Glover is over a clearly unmotivated Rampage who has been on the down slide for quite a while.



Ludinator said:


> Stupidist thread ever. You have basically just gave an excuse for the whole devision. Jon Jones is a LH fighter, he is not a heavyweight and doesn't come close to there size.


You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I would suggest to you not to call something stupid while misspelling 3 words in as many sentences.



> At the weigh inn's last night middleweight Chael was alot bigger than Jones.


Did we watch the same weigh in? Chael looked more full simply because he didn't have to cut as much weight. Jon has a much bigger frame, and the size difference will be more obvious when we see them tomorrow.



> Jones is 230 tops, half of the names you mentioned are heavier than that.


Really? Who on that list cuts more weight? Rampage, maybe, but that's largely due to getting too out of shape between fights. Jones has long speculated an eventual move to Heavyweight, even before he became the champ.


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## Ludinator (Mar 15, 2012)

Chael was rumoured to be walking around at 240 for this fight.
Rashad also cuts more weight than Jon Jones, as does Rampage and Bader.


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## UKMMAGURU (Nov 15, 2009)

Completely understand where the original poster is going with this thread, but can't help but feel as though all negative aspects of JJ's run in the division have been highlighted to the hilt without acknowledging the good accomplishments made. Essentially it's the worst possible way to at to look at JJ's UFC career.

I enjoy watching his fights and respect him greatly as a fighter and athlete but i wouldn't call myself a Jon Jones fan, that said I'd prefer to see his career more like this;

Pre-UFC
Jon Jones was only a state champion wrestler, barely registering a blip in high level UFC terms. Between April and July 2008 Jon Jones goes 6-0 in an incredible 4 months spell, although he does not beat any named opponents it's a noteworthy start, all wins are by stoppage.

UFC 87 - Andre Gusmao
Jon Jones' debut is against another undefeated prospect, Gusmao was actually being refered to as a favourite according to a thread on this forum. Good debut win.

UFC 94 - Stephan Bonnar
An impressive debut lands Jones against veteran Stephan Bonnar who was on a 2-fight winning streak at the time, dominant performance by the 7-0 Jones. Excellent win.

UFC 100 - Jake O'Brien
11-2 former Heavyweight prospect, despite this, in restorpsect a step down from his previous opponent. Decent win.

TUF 10 Finale - Matt Hamill
Hamill was 7-2 on a 2-fight winning streak which included a 1st round KO of Mark Munoz, his only loses coming to Bisping and Franklin. Make no mistake this was an appropriate step up for Jon Jones' 4th fight in the UFC, although it was an odd outcome he was dominant in this fight over a very crafty and talented fighter.

UFC Live - Brandon Vera
Jon Jones headlines over Junior Dos Santos in what is both their 5th UFC fights. Dominant performance over a decent name in Vera. Good win.

At this point it's clear Jon Jones is very talented and should have perhaps went against a top-5 guy to really see where he's at, however they gave him...

UFC Live - Matyushenko
...Another headline slot against another crafty vet, as expected Jon Jones was dominant and ended the fight in a similar manner he did against Vera. Solid yet fully expected win.

UFC 126 - Ryan Bader
Excellent fight between two undefeated and seemingly equally talented fighters, Jones was the favourite but not overwhelmingly, Bader had shown big power and good wrestling. Other than the afore mentioned fight against a top-5 fighter this was the only fight that really made sense for both. Very good win, cementing him at #1 prospect at LHW.

UFC 128 - Mauricio Rua
Dominant performance in a title fight, little else to say. 

If you look at his list of opponents from this fight onwards it's really a who's-who of elite LHWs in MMA, there's no question Jon Jones' run from first to last has been extremely impressive.


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

MikeHawk said:


> Chuck never fought a single great striker


Overeem, Guy Mezger, Wandy (not a GREAT striker, but he's known for his ferocious striking), Pelé perhaps.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Jones is easily one of the best P4P fighters this sport has ever seen already and he's just getting warmed up.


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Jones is easily one of the best P4P fighters this sport has ever seen already and he's just getting warmed up.


I really, really dislike Jones, but I have to agree with this.


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## halifaxdonair (Aug 27, 2011)

the problem here is that there is no way to prove or disprove if someone belongs on an imaginary list.

you want him to prove that he belongs as a top p4p fighter by being better than a similarly skilled fighter in his prime. this isn't possible.

no one in his division is a top p4p fighter. if he comes out on top in a close fight, it is proof against him being #2. if someone in his division starts to climb the p4p list, he will fight them long before they can reach a high rank, if only because there is no one else for him to fight.


if he fights someone else on the P4P list, his choices are against a smaller 38-40 year old(see the excuses forming already?)or a bigger heavyweight(heavyweights don't belong on p4p lists)who is not even listed as top 5 on p4p list.


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## trimco (Feb 4, 2011)

BOOM said:


> Jones is easily one of the best P4P fighters this sport has ever seen already and he's just getting warmed up.


Now I'm pretty excited for the fight tonight.

It really is a treat having the opportunity to watch guys like Jones and Silva fight.

A lot of people are saying JBJ shouldn't be #2, but they aren't saying who should be. 

GSP, presumably? You could easily point out major flaws in his opponents as well.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

halifaxdonair said:


> the problem here is that there is no way to prove or disprove if someone belongs on an imaginary list.
> 
> you want him to prove that he belongs as a top p4p fighter by being better than a similarly skilled fighter in his prime. this isn't possible.
> 
> ...




Jones has already cleaned out the LHW division and made it look easy. The streak he has had plus making his opponents look like amateurs who were all more experienced in the cage and former champions themselves is not something that you see very often in MMA. He also has accomplished this by the age of 25, making this feat nothing short of incredible.

Jones is not just one of best P4P fighters this sport has ever seen for massacring a good chunk of the best fighters it has had to offer him, he's a rare phenomenon that will go down as one of MMA's greatest legends. He will be right up there with Silva, GSP and Fedor when it's all said and done, you can bank on it.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

_redruM_ said:


> Which is exactly my point. An injured, undersized, late replacement Vitor Belfort nearly pulled it off. What would happen if he finally faced an *elite*, *athletic LHW* *in their prime** who can put it all together*? Until we know the answer to that, I don't think he should be rated so highly.


That fighter doesn't exist so Jones will continue to dominate the paper thin LHW division for many years. 

:bye01:


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)




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## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

Ludinator said:


> Chael was rumoured to be walking around at 240 for this fight.
> Rashad also cuts more weight than Jon Jones, as does Rampage and Bader.


The highest I ever heard Chael walking around at MW was 217. If he's really at 240 for this fight, it's because he ballooned up to that weight and it isn't going to be very effective. Make no mistake, Jones is the naturally larger man by a fair margin.

Both Rashad and Bader carry excess weight. Rashad always could have made 185, while Bader probably couldn't but still has a noticeably smaller frame. Rampage is the only argument, but he still has a much smaller frame, huge reach disadvantage and hasn't been elite in quite some time. Even in his prime, he was pretty one dimensional. Another guy from the old guard.




gazh said:


> If you look at his list of opponents from this fight onwards it's really a who's-who of elite LHWs in MMA, there's no question Jon Jones' run from first to last has been extremely impressive.


I understand it may seem like I'm downplaying his accomplishments, but the fact of the matter is the only guy on that list you could argue being in their prime was Bader. A guy who was never really elite and managed to do what no one else had done in 5 years -- losing to Tito.


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## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

trimco said:


> A lot of people are saying JBJ shouldn't be #2, but they aren't saying who should be.
> 
> GSP, presumably? You could easily point out major flaws in his opponents as well.


GSP has fought guys like Koscheck. A motivated guy in his prime with a distinct knockout power advantage, and the athleticism and wrestling pedigree to counter GSP's greatest strength. Jones has never had to face a challenge like that.

Even looking on the horizon, there are all kinds of challengers for GSP at WW. Guys like Hendricks, Macdonald, Ellenberger who are young, huge, motivated, all possess freakish power and oustanding wrestling pedigrees and are pretty much worst possible match-ups for GSP. Then you have elite grapplers like Maia. By contrast, who does Jones have on the horizon? Pretty much no one he doesn't have nearly every advantage over.

I'm not saying Jones isn't a great fighter. I'm just saying we really don't know how great, because he still hasn't been truly tested. And I'm not sure how anyone can argue that.



***** de Amigo said:


> That fighter doesn't exist so Jones will continue to dominate the paper thin LHW division for many years.
> 
> :bye01:


Pretty much, yes.



Guy Incognito said:


>


Is there an argument here, or should we just settle for the tired, old internet meme?


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## dlxrevolution (Jul 16, 2009)

Parlaying your advantages into actually making them effective IS a part of being a good fighter. Your op is basically like saying "Anderson only wins because he's faster and has superior reflexes. Let him face someone with those same attibutes, THEN we'll see how good he is." "GSP only wins because he has a faster double than the rest of the division. Let him fight someone who equals that THEN we'll see how good he is.".

The aspect of Jon Jones you are questioning isn't how good of a fighter he is, you're questioning his fortitude. If we were measuring who has the P4P highest will to win, then there would be some question marks because he hasn't been tested. But because he's dominated most all of the best fighters in his weightclass, then I think it would be safe to say that that would be apart of establishing his legucy. 

Otherwise, all you're basically saying is "Well, he's only the best because he's better than everyone else. That doesn't mean anything!".


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

True that Jones hasn't been tested, but that is an indication of dominance. He's fought a bunch of top ten guys and they didn't stand a chance. He makes the division look weak because he's so dominant.


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## mo25 (Feb 7, 2011)

I agree with a lot of what you said. Jones doesn't belong at LHW. He overpowers literally everyone at LHW. We won't see what Jones is really made of until he moves up and faces people like DC, JDS and of course Cain who I personally think will rip Jones' head off.


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

trimco said:


> Now I'm pretty excited for the fight tonight.
> 
> It really is a treat having the opportunity to watch guys like Jones and Silva fight.
> 
> ...


This whole P4P discussion is just mental masturbation and I really don't think that the LHW should really even be included in that discussion, they're too close to being the same size, especially with the weight cut that some of these guys pull-off. I'm thinking this matter is for the lighter guys if we have to keep having this discussion in the first place.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

the problem here is two-fold;

first of all if you look through the mma rankings for LHW (globally) there are very few guys reaching their prime that would ever be legitimate contenders. Shogun, Rampage, Chael Sonnen all these guys are far past their prime. Other weight classes have a lot of younger contenders that actually pose a threat but at LHW the field is extremely thin in terms of young up and coming contenders, realistically we have Gustaffson and that's it. So Jones is going to be getting spoonfed over the hill guys or fighters that don't belong at LHW. There is no antithesis to Jones, there is no Rory Mcdonald, there is no Anthony Pettis, no Chris Weidman to challenge Jones. Jones could realistically stay champ for a decade because the LHW division is going through a generational change and there's only one guy that's a legit contender.

second of all Jones is a monster of a fighter, he is extremely skilled, very tough and extremely physically gifted. He's made every one of his opponents look like amateurs.

So you get a compounded issue where Jones is extremely talented, physically gifted and reaching his prime in a division of virtually no legitimate young contenders. So we won't really know how good he is for a while until he actually fights a young guy like himself that is peaking. Guys like Phil Davis are perennial gatekeepers even if the division was thin so Jones gets the best of both cases.


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## Kreed (Feb 5, 2007)

_redruM_ said:


> Nah, it's not his fault. It just really is very telling looking back at his run. Especially considering his last two defenses in a row are against middleweights, one of whom lost his last fight.
> 
> I do think he's a good fighter. I just think people often overlook how easy of a path he's had, and *I don't think he's earned the kind of status that GSP*, Silva and *Aldo have*. I'd really like to see him against a truly elite guy who isn't disadvantaged in nearly every way going into the fight and see how he does for once.
> 
> Until that day, he still remains a pretty big question mark to me.


really? which elite welterweight not named hughes has gsp finished? And who has aldo really beat other than faber and edgar.Yet you dont see jones on their level? you are a clown


John8204 said:


> Yeah, see regardless of Jones resume it's still twice the resume as the number #1 guy. Anderson Silva fought 6 guys that have been cut from the UFC all during his title reign. Jon Jones has fought more UFC champions and done so in less fights. Jones has also never lost a decision, been stopped in a fight, and aside from a terrible DQ would be unbeaten right now.
> 
> Also I don't know where this "shallow LHW" division comes from. Are they old...yep but you know what's worse than being old, being a top five ranked fighter with one win over another top ten guy (Bisping). Fighters can walk into the top ten at MW, guys can go from prelims to contenders practically overnight while at LHW it took years before people took Gustaf seriously. Davis had to be unblemished. Bader and Nog needed massive upsets to return to the rankings.
> 
> You can argue that Jones doesn't deserve the claim of p4p best in the world, but you can't then call Anderson the number 1. *The reality is one guy has been on a long winning streak and defeated the best of the best in their primes and that's GSP.*


who is the best of best in their primes that hes beating? nick diaz? who left the ufc losing to anyone that used wrestling.Re-built his name facing mainly strikers then returns and gets beaten by a wrestler? yeah didnt see that coming.Perhaps you meant dan hardy? or the world beater thiago alves.Or maybe you meant koscheck who got KOd by a punchless paulo thiago.Couldnt have meant the slew of bloated lws like penn, sherk or serra no way


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## GDPofDRB (Apr 18, 2013)

I had Jones at #4 on my P4P list before Saturday night. But after UFC 159, I have him at #4.


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## Hellboy (Mar 15, 2008)

GSP fans are the worst fans in MMA.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Hellboy said:


> GSP fans are the worst fans in MMA.


So are GSP haters. 

Sent from my GT-S5660 using VerticalSports.Com App


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Jones is p4p best in my opinion


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Kreed said:


> really? which elite welterweight not named hughes has gsp finished? And who has aldo really beat other than faber and edgar.Yet you dont see jones on their level? you are a clownwho is the best of best in their primes that hes beating? nick diaz? who left the ufc losing to anyone that used wrestling.Re-built his name facing mainly strikers then returns and gets beaten by a wrestler? yeah didnt see that coming.Perhaps you meant dan hardy? or the world beater thiago alves.Or maybe you meant koscheck who got KOd by a punchless paulo thiago.Couldnt have meant the slew of bloated lws like penn, sherk or serra no way


Yes Alves, Diaz, Hardy and Koscheck are much worse fighters than Lutter, Irvin, and Leites. Can't wait to see those guys next fight in the UFC...oh wait they were CUT. Also half those guys you listed are still ranked in the top ten.

When you say bloated Penn, Sherk and Serra I'm sure you meant former WW champions Matt Serra, BJ Penn, and WW title challenger Sean Sherk. But your right Anderson Silva fights only the best in MW's that's why Nate Marquardt, Patrick Cote, and Demian Maia are lighting up the MW division.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Oh, yay... another retarded thread about the retarded concept of P4P King wherein retarded fans call other retarded fans the worst fans in the history of MMA and dismiss the accomplishments of world champions whilst sitting in their retarded parents' basements.

Glad some of you are keeping the tradition of retardation alive!


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Rauno said:


> So are GSP haters.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5660 using VerticalSports.Com App


So in other words you are just saying GSP is bad for MMA.


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

Threads like this are always weird to read. It's crazy how so many MMA fans are so big into retroactively discrediting the losers of a fight so they don't have to praise the winners.

Before Jon Jones won the title, Shogun, Rampage, Rashad and Lyoto regularly made top 10 P4P lists. And I don't mean years before Jones won the title, I mean within a few months of it. Jones smashes them and they're tomato cans.

And for some reason people supporting him need to dismiss the accomplishments of other champions. 

:dunno: 

P.S. Jon Jones makes his cut (walking weight means nothing, though even there Jones is pretty light for the division) from 217-219 lbs and he's too big for his weight class somehow. Tons of LWs and lower do twenty pounds, but Jones doing 12-14 is too much, because what? He's also tall with long limbs?


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Canadian Psycho said:


> Oh, yay... another retarded thread about the retarded concept of P4P King wherein retarded fans call other retarded fans the worst fans in the history of MMA and dismiss the accomplishments of world champions whilst sitting in their retarded parents' basements.
> 
> Glad some of you are keeping the tradition of retardation alive!


QFT

also, derp. (I'm all about tradition)



jonnyg4508 said:


> So in other words you are just saying GSP is bad for MMA.


No, he's saying he's great for MMA, as he's an idiot filter; one merely has to read people's opinions on him to gauge a posters idiot level. (this works with most champions)


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## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

dlxrevolution said:


> The aspect of Jon Jones you are questioning isn't how good of a fighter he is, you're questioning his fortitude.


I'm questioning the quality of his competition. Once again, I don't doubt that Jones is a great fighter, but the fact is the LHW division is in really sad shape and a lot of the guys he's fought don't even belong there.



mastodon2222 said:


> True that Jones hasn't been tested, but that is an indication of dominance. He's fought a bunch of top ten guys and they didn't stand a chance. He makes the division look weak because he's so dominant.


He makes the division look weak because it _is_ weak and he's one of the very few legit LHWs in his prime.



rabakill said:


> the problem here is two-fold;
> 
> first of all if you look through the mma rankings for LHW (globally) there are very few guys reaching their prime that would ever be legitimate contenders. Shogun, Rampage, Chael Sonnen all these guys are far past their prime. Other weight classes have a lot of younger contenders that actually pose a threat but at LHW the field is extremely thin in terms of young up and coming contenders, realistically we have Gustaffson and that's it. So Jones is going to be getting spoonfed over the hill guys or fighters that don't belong at LHW. There is no antithesis to Jones, there is no Rory Mcdonald, there is no Anthony Pettis, no Chris Weidman to challenge Jones. Jones could realistically stay champ for a decade because the LHW division is going through a generational change and there's only one guy that's a legit contender.
> 
> ...


Yes, that's pretty much what I've been saying this whole time. You've summed it up nicely.



Kreed said:


> really? which elite welterweight not named hughes has gsp finished?


What does finishing have to do with anything? GSP does not have natural knockout power, and everyone knows he has been much more conservative since the Serra loss. He isn't a finisher. Nonetheless, he's thoroughly dominated every opponent, many of whom are/were legit.

Let's look at it this way. Most people downplay GSP's second win over Penn -- and for good reason, it was somewhat of a mismatch -- yet at least Penn at the time was the champ, motivated, in his prime, the former champ of that division and on a huge tear. Not even the MWs Jones has faced have had all of that going for them. For crying out loud, Chael was coming off a decisive loss and hadn't even competed at LHW in 6 years. He was never even very successful there, let alone a former champ. Vitor also hadn't competed there in 6 years and came in on short notice with a broken hand. Just think about how absurd that is. You won't see that kind of thing in a competitive division.

How dominant do you think GSP would look against a Diego Sanchez, or Penn for a third time? He might even get some more finishes. It's difficult to even make a comparison, because equivalent guys to Rampage or Shogun don't even exist in the WW division anymore, nevermind in the title hunt.



> And who has aldo really beat other than faber and edgar.


Everyone who has challenged him. Granted, that division is still young, but at least none of those guys were out of shape 40 year old bantamweights with multiple nagging injuries and a serious lack of cardio. Mendes, Florian and Edgar were all legit wins. Especially Edgar.




SmackyBear said:


> Threads like this are always weird to read. It's crazy how so many MMA fans are so big into retroactively discrediting the losers of a fight so they don't have to praise the winners.


Well firstly, considering my join date and relative post count, I think it would be a stretch to say I'm big on it. And like I said, it isn't retroactive. This has been on my mind for quite some time. Literally every single Jones fight I've been thinking to myself "Too bad he's a middleweight" or "Well, it might have been competitive 6 years ago...". As I've said, I'm not trying to drag Jones through the mud. I don't really have any personal issues with him. I just thought this was an interesting topic for discussion. I'm not sure why so many people react with so much blatant hostility, foaming at the mouth and flinging insults every which way, but I suppose that is par for the course on the internet.

Despite all that, I've still yet to see a single solid argument against my assertion.



> Before Jon Jones won the title, Shogun, Rampage, Rashad and Lyoto regularly made top 10 P4P lists. And I don't mean years before Jones won the title, I mean within a few months of it. Jones smashes them and they're tomato cans.


I don't recall Rampage being on any top p4p lists. That being said, the reason for the others is simple. They were big names with good streaks, and most people didn't know any better at the time. Thankfully, it should be much more obvious to people now just how impressive Rashad beating Forrest for the title was. Most of those names were rated higher than they should have been simply because they were household names people liked to cheer for, and because even then the division was too shallow to properly measure their overall relevance. That's a whole other discussion, though.


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## evzbc (Oct 11, 2006)

I came into this convo late so please excuse if this has already been said.

The same thing can easily be said for Anderson, who is my favorite fighter.

I THINK these guys are just that good man.

I made a poll about superfights and the reason I did is is because I wanted to see if others felt the way I did ...which is wanting Bones to fight Cain so we can REALLY see him tested.

Glover will be a good test if he can pass a few more of his own, same with Gus. There's still lots of time.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

Great stuff, _redruM_ - I think along those same lines, as well. And it's not to take away from fighters skill level, either (AS, GSP, and JBJ are feckin' MMA gods)- it's just that I see the top 3 P4P guys as being pretty much interchangeable. It depends on how you view styles, competition level, and just how you personally translate what "P4P" means exactly. People shouldn't get all pissy about it.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

_redruM_ said:


> I'm questioning the quality of his competition. Once again, I don't doubt that Jones is a great fighter, but the fact is the LHW division is in really sad shape and a lot of the guys he's fought don't even belong there.


That's rubbish. Jon Jones has beaten a whole heap of immensely talented fighters. He's not only looking good because the competition sucks, because if you can tell me without breaking into laughter that Shogun Rua, Rampage Jackson, Lyoto Machida, Rashad Evans, Vitor Belfort, Chael Sonnen and even Ryan Bader suck, you don't know what you're talking bout. 

There's a trend going on on MMA forums recently that really is starting to grate, and making me become a less regular contributor, and it's the trend of doing anything to diminish a fighters achievements, saying anything to attempt to form an argument against someone, it's bullshit. Jon Jones is the greatest LHW in history. Other than Anderson Silva, no-one is putting world class fighters away with regularity like Jon Jones. The only fighter he has failed to finish in 11 fights is Rashad Evans, and when you consider who he's fought that is so impressive.

Also, forget the record, the run down, who he's fought. Watch his ******* fights. Jon Jones is an absolute destroyer. He toys with experienced, immensely talented fighters, and makes it look like the easiest, most natural thing in the world. He's the full package. His striking is incredible, he beat one of the best wrestlers in MMA at his own game, and has submissions. Even attempting to discredit a fighter with the ability of Jones just defies logic.

Also, if you'd have told me 4 years ago that someone would come into the division and finish Shogun, Rampage, Machida and Bader in the space of a year, I'd have laughed at you, but Jones has done just that. He is on a par with Anderson Silva right now, and he's only 24 years old. How damn good is Jon Jones going to be at 27? He could quite easily go down as one of the greatest fighters not only in MMA history, but in combat sports history. Jon Jones is a phenom, and how anyone can begin to attempt to discredit his achievements confuses the hell out of me. What the hell has this forum come to?


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## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> That's rubbish. Jon Jones has beaten a whole heap of immensely talented fighters. He's not only looking good because the competition sucks, because if you can tell me without breaking into laughter that Shogun Rua, Rampage Jackson, Lyoto Machida, Rashad Evans, Vitor Belfort, Chael Sonnen and even Ryan Bader suck, you don't know what you're talking bout.
> 
> There's a trend going on on MMA forums recently that really is starting to grate, and making me become a less regular contributor, and it's the trend of doing anything to diminish a fighters achievements, saying anything to attempt to form an argument against someone, it's bullshit. Jon Jones is the greatest LHW in history. Other than Anderson Silva, no-one is putting world class fighters away with regularity like Jon Jones. The only fighter he has failed to finish in 11 fights is Rashad Evans, and when you consider who he's fought that is so impressive.
> 
> ...


Excellent post.


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

I think he'll be the G.O.A.T for awhile but not too long. This sport is evolving so fast. As it becomes more popular and lucrative, more people will be interested in it. So the freak athletes that should be playing in Basketball, Football etc may start going into MMA instead. 

There will be someone even better than Jones one day. And he'll be facing and beating even better competition.


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## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

Jones finally fights an actual LHW of a similar size -- though he still had nearly every advantage -- and barely squeaks by, being held up by two people as he exits the octagon. I loved how in the lead up to this fight they kept drilling it into people's heads that Gustaffson is half an inch taller, while conveniently avoiding the fact that Jones still had a significant 5.5 inch reach advantage. This fight made it more apparent than ever that Jones is as good as his reach advantage, despite Dana White's claims that people would have to stop saying that if he won.

Jones is a good fighter, but I stand by my original assertion that calling him #1 p4p is silly.


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## The Best Around (Oct 18, 2011)

I figured these stupid threads would pop up again. I still think GSP is the best (regardless of how boring and safe he is). Just because it was a close fight doesnt mean Bones is only good with a huge reach advantage. Anyone ever thought Gus is just maybe really good? Jones pretty much smoked everyone, and then he came out on top in a war.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

You can't fault a guy for his attributes or timing, but there's usually someone who will rise out of everyone to challenge the throne.

Glad we finally found someone. I had doubts myself, but it looks like Phil Davis taught Gus well...very well.


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

AlphaDawg said:


> I think he'll be the G.O.A.T for awhile but not too long. This sport is evolving so fast. As it becomes more popular and lucrative, more people will be interested in it. So the freak athletes that should be playing in Basketball, Football etc may start going into MMA instead.
> 
> There will be someone even better than Jones one day. And he'll be facing and beating even better competition.


Great point, + rep for you sir.


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

Danm2501 said:


> That's rubbish. Jon Jones has beaten a whole heap of immensely talented fighters. He's not only looking good because the competition sucks, because if you can tell me without breaking into laughter that Shogun Rua, Rampage Jackson, Lyoto Machida, Rashad Evans, Vitor Belfort, Chael Sonnen and even Ryan Bader suck, you don't know what you're talking bout.
> 
> There's a trend going on on MMA forums recently that really is starting to grate, and making me become a less regular contributor, and it's the trend of doing anything to diminish a fighters achievements, saying anything to attempt to form an argument against someone, it's bullshit. Jon Jones is the greatest LHW in history. Other than Anderson Silva, no-one is putting world class fighters away with regularity like Jon Jones. The only fighter he has failed to finish in 11 fights is Rashad Evans, and when you consider who he's fought that is so impressive.
> 
> ...


Another great post, thanks for the sanity. + repping for you.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

I'm seeing more and more like a Jones fanboy by the day, and I'm never wanted anything more than Vitor to finish that armbar haha. But this thread to me is a joke. It's like people saying Anderson or Fedor suck after their losses. Jones had a tough fight, and WON.

Andre Gusmao: Debuting guy. Nothing to note.

Stephan Bonnar: UFC vet on a two fight / two finish win streak.

Jake O'Brien: Former HW who had fought Arlovski and Velasquez, and beat Heath Herring. Jones finished witha submission.

Matt Hamill: UFC vet on a two KO streak and a KOTN win. I'' count it.

Brandon Vera: Former HW coming off a loss to a HOFer. KOTN in first round.

Vladimir Matyshenko: 24-4 on a 3 fight win streak. Jones finished in first round.

Ryan Bader: 12-0, 5-0 in UFC. Jones got SOTN in the second.

Shogun Rua: For UFC title. Coming off of KOTY. 19-4 MMA legend. Jones smashed him into submission.

Rampage Jackson: Former champ and FOTN, but nothing impressive really.

Lyoto Machida: Coming off of KOTY, former champ and 16-2. Jones finished in the second. FOTN.

Rashad Evans: Former champion. 13-1-1 on a 4 fight win streak.

Vitor Belfort: Former champ, on a 7 fight win streak if you dont count Anderon's win over him. Jones win in the second and overcame a difficult position. SOTN.

Chael Sonnen: Nothing to note here. Jones smashed him and did what was expected.

Alexander Gustafsson: 15-1 on a 6 fight win streak. Tough fight which Jones got the win in. FOTN.

In summary, Jones has fought 5 former LHW champions, the toughest guy in the division, and earned lots of SOTNs and FOTNs.

But yeah, his record is overrated guys.


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## Kreed (Feb 5, 2007)

_redruM_ said:


> *What does finishing have to do with anything?* GSP does not have natural knockout power, and everyone knows he has been much more conservative since the Serra loss. He isn't a finisher. Nonetheless, he's thoroughly dominated every opponent, many of whom are/were legit.
> 
> Let's look at it this way. Most people downplay GSP's second win over Penn -- and for good reason, it was somewhat of a mismatch -- yet at least Penn at the time was the champ, motivated, in his prime, the former champ of that division and on a huge tear. Not even the MWs Jones has faced have had all of that going for them. For crying out loud, Chael was coming off a decisive loss and hadn't even competed at LHW in 6 years. He was never even very successful there, let alone a former champ. Vitor also hadn't competed there in 6 years and came in on short notice with a broken hand. Just think about how absurd that is. You won't see that kind of thing in a competitive division.
> 
> How dominant do you think GSP would look against a Diego Sanchez, or Penn for a third time? He might even get some more finishes. It's difficult to even make a comparison, because equivalent guys to Rampage or Shogun don't even exist in the WW division anymore, nevermind in the title hunt.


if hes going to be lauded the GOAT or numero uno on the p4p list he should at least have 1 finish over a peer just 1.I hear the excuse that hes against the creme de la creme yet his contemporaries manage to finish opponents hes faced. I dont see how him not having ko power is an excuse his forte is wrestling, is it not? How do wrestlers usually finish fights? gnp but the excuse there is he cant help not having a killer instinct, right? so lets see cant ko, cant sub, cant gnp all he can do is win "contests" via way of unified rules.There is a reason hes reluctant to move up in weight and face MW. Incredible athlete, shrewd tactician but great fighter? nah


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## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

The Best Around said:


> I figured these stupid threads would pop up again.


What's stupid about it, exactly?



> Just because it was a close fight doesnt mean Bones is only good with a huge reach advantage.


No, it doesn't. I said it was apparent, not definitive.



> Anyone ever thought Gus is just maybe really good?


Gustaffson impressed me. I didn't think it would be that competitive, no disrespect to Gustaffson. Even so, Jones was still the more athletic fighter with a significant reach advantage.



> Jones pretty much smoked everyone, and then he came out on top in a war.


I had Gustaffson winning. It was close though, certainly not a robbery.



No_Mercy said:


> You can't fault a guy for his attributes or timing, but there's usually someone who will rise out of everyone to challenge the throne.


No, it's not his fault. I just can't be really sold on his skills until he walks into a fight without nearly every natural advantage.



> Glad we finally found someone. I had doubts myself, but it looks like Phil Davis taught Gus well...very well.


We still haven't found him. Don't get me wrong, Gustaffson is good, but he's not the athlete Jones is and he will always have to battle that reach. If/when Gustaffson beats him, it will be because of a superior skill set.




ClydebankBlitz said:


> I'm seeing more and more like a Jones fanboy by the day, and I'm never wanted anything more than Vitor to finish that armbar haha. But this thread to me is a joke. It's like people saying Anderson or Fedor suck after their losses. Jones had a tough fight, and WON.


Please try to read what is written, and nothing more. I never said anyone sucked.



> Stephan Bonnar: UFC vet on a two fight / two finish win streak.


Durable guy, but never stood out in any significant way. Was never in the title picture, either.



> Jake O'Brien: Former HW who had fought Arlovski and Velasquez, and beat Heath Herring. Jones finished witha submission.


Where is he now? Never beat anyone in the top 10, to my knowledge.



> Matt Hamill: UFC vet on a two KO streak and a KOTN win. I'' count it.


Never in the title picture.



> Brandon Vera: Former HW coming off a loss to a HOFer. KOTN in first round.


Never in the title picture and has won 1 fight in the last 4 years.



> Vladimir Matyshenko: 24-4 on a 3 fight win streak. Jones finished in first round.


Legit guy, but never in the title picture and clearly on his way out at 39.



> Ryan Bader: 12-0, 5-0 in UFC. Jones got SOTN in the second.


10.5 inch reach disadvantage and turtled as soon as Jones got a hold of him. Also lost to Tito.

Now we get to champs. 



> Shogun Rua: For UFC title. Coming off of KOTY. 19-4 MMA legend. Jones smashed him into submission.


I love Shogun, he's one of my favorite fighters of all time. But let's be honest, he's been on the decline since entering the UFC and never even got going in that fight. Has always been an undersized LHW. Also, 8.5 inch reach disadvantage.



> Rampage Jackson: Former champ and FOTN, but nothing impressive really.


You said it well enough.



> Lyoto Machida: Coming off of KOTY, former champ and 16-2. Jones finished in the second. FOTN.


Natural middleweight with a 10.5 inch reach disadvantage.



> Rashad Evans: Former champion. 13-1-1 on a 4 fight win streak.


Rashad is legit, but is also a natural middleweight and hasn't looked great in some time. 9.5 inch reach disadvantage.



> Vitor Belfort: Former champ, on a 7 fight win streak if you dont count Anderon's win over him. Jones win in the second and overcame a difficult position. SOTN.


Why wouldn't we count Anderson's win? Actual middleweight who hadn't fought at LHW in 6 years and nearly got the win.



> Chael Sonnen: Nothing to note here. Jones smashed him and did what was expected.


Yep, same as Vitor with the addition of being a perfect stylistic match up.



> Alexander Gustafsson: 15-1 on a 6 fight win streak. Tough fight which Jones got the win in. FOTN.


Good fight for sure, but I actually thought Gustaffson won it by a slim margin. Jones still had a significant reach advantage, though this was the first time it wasn't about the length of my forearm.

The 1 other guy in the picture is Teixeira, who is 34, spent the vast majority of his career fighting lesser competition outside the ufc, and is at an 8.5 inch reach disadvantage.

Given all of this, I have a hard time getting excited about any Jones fights, or being surprised/impressed at the result.



> In summary, Jones has fought 5 former LHW champions, the toughest guy in the division, and earned lots of SOTNs and FOTNs.


5 former champions who were all undersized, past their prime, or both.



> But yeah, his record is overrated guys.


You've omitted the details. I've given them, and each one is fact. When looking at the whole picture, it's clear that his title reign, while impressive, is not worthy of #1 p4p status in comparison to champs in lower weight classes.

Now I'm going to say it again, for the last time: I'm not saying it's his fault, or that he or his opponents suck, but it is what it is. I'm just giving you facts. You have to raise an eyebrow when a champ goes 1.5 years without fighting someone in his own weight class.



Kreed said:


> if hes going to be lauded the GOAT or numero uno on the p4p list he should at least have 1 finish over a peer just 1.I hear the excuse that hes against the creme de la creme yet his contemporaries manage to finish opponents hes faced. I dont see how him not having ko power is an excuse his forte is wrestling, is it not? How do wrestlers usually finish fights? gnp but the excuse there is he cant help not having a killer instinct, right? so lets see cant ko, cant sub, cant gnp all he can do is win "contests" via way of unified rules.There is a reason hes reluctant to move up in weight and face MW. Incredible athlete, shrewd tactician but great fighter? nah


He's beaten guys who were younger, bigger, faster, stronger, more athletic, better strikers, better grapplers, better conditioned, with much more knockout power, and more experience. He's been able to do that because of his skill at putting all aspects of MMA together. He's taken a conservative approach, yes, but no one has been able to beat him or even have the upper hand for any significant period of time. That, to me, is wildly impressive. Now he's fighting a bigger, stronger guy with better wrestling and ridiculous knockout power. Because of that, his fights interest and impress me a lot more than Jones'.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

How can two former LHW champions who have only fought at LHW be natural MWs?


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

"Title" picture is a nebulous term. 

Brandon Vera after facing Frank Mir drew Tim Sylvia the winner got a title fight.

Also Vlad did fight for the title against Tito.

So Jon Jones beat 5 Champions, 3 title challengers and 2 fighters from title eliminators. That's ten men in my eyes that were in the "title picture"


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Last weekend really answered a ton of questions. How would he fare against an opponent with similar height and reach. We all got our answer. 

He's immensely talented and his record shows it. But there's something missing. 

Pettis...is a black belt in multiple forms of martial arts and is absolutely dynamic. He's usually not even the biggest or strongest. His high skill level in multiple artforms is what shines through.

Anderson usually gets takedown which really is his own glaring weakness, but he moves and strikes like nobody we've ever seen inside the Octagon. 

GSP can finish if he wants, but doesn't. He'd rather not lose position and wears his opponents down round by round implementing different strategies although it looks the same. Again he's very athletic, but he's NOT the strongest guy or the most powerful.

Aldo is a very efficient fighter with deadly offensive. Chad Mendes is probably stronger along with some of the other fighters he's faced like Faber. Doesn't matter cuz he'll utilize leg kicks or a variety of shots.

Barao is similar to Aldo. A multi dimensional fighter who looks for the finish. 

The LHW title holder is more powerful and utilizes that reach to the 10th degree. I've seen holes, now EVEN more so. He does not have defense other than circling with his chin tucked, right arm defending and left arm stretched out or sometimes both arms w/ fingers stretched out. I swear someone is going to do a flying arm bar on him. 

The fact that he's getting tagged regularly shows the defensive holes. But he immediately goes for the takedown and it's almost game over when that happens especially when those elbows land.

It's because of that his game looks a lot better than it really is. Hey I aint completely biased...random person watching an older fight bet me that Rampage would win and I told him I'd bet $100...he said lets do $20. Easy money.

Bottomline if someone can negate those takedowns, watch for those elbows, and Mike Tyson there way inside it could happen or stick and move (Gus style) it's very plausible. I'd prefer the Tyson style cuz that's going for the finish.

I just thought of something. Gus is an outside fighter who uses his range. Glover is an inside fighter who stands in the pocket. We get to see how the LHW title holder adapts to this and whether or not Glover can finish the job.

Remember Glover has had a LONG time to study his fights while the LHW title holder has been focused on Gus the entire time.

Ending notes. I also have to give credit to the champ because he kept coming forward. To me he wanted it more. I really think Gus had his moment where he was thinking, "wow I'm actually winning and beating this guy in the process. So much where he may have lost a tiny bit of focus on the END GOAL." I mean try for that takedown or anything and eat up the clock, don't let the champ press forward and finish you. It's all I'm saying. He came inches from completing his goal. Inches...

Great fight...and it's changed the landscape a bit which is always good for any division.

EDIT: Looks like the trainer had the same scoring as myself and views...hehe. So close. 



> Del Fierro scored the bout 48-47 for Gustafsson, but admitted Jones' performance in the fifth and final round likely sealed his victory. (The final scores were 48-47 twice and 49-46 for the champ, who broke Tito Ortiz's record for most consecutive title defenses at 205 pounds).
> 
> "When I was there live, I had Alex winning round 1, round 2, and round 3, but I thought round 3 could have swung either way," Del Fierro said. "We told Alex we thought we lost that third round.
> 
> ...


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## The Best Around (Oct 18, 2011)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> How can two former LHW champions who have only fought at LHW be natural MWs?


Because they fought Jon Jones. Obviously everyone who fights him is conveniently not that good, a middleweight, or on the decline. It's baffling logic; if they are fighting at that weight class, that's the weight class they are. That's like saying for Bonnar-Silva that Bonnar is trying to beat up on a middlweight. It's idiotic and just makes people like that poster look like fools.


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## Kreed (Feb 5, 2007)

_redruM_ said:


> He's beaten guys who were younger, bigger, faster, stronger, more athletic, better strikers, better grapplers, better conditioned, with much more knockout power, and more experience. He's been able to do that because of his skill at putting all aspects of MMA together. He's taken a conservative approach, yes, but no one has been able to beat him or even have the upper hand for any significant period of time. That, to me, is wildly impressive. *Now he's fighting a bigger, stronger guy with better wrestling* and ridiculous knockout power. Because of that, his fights interest and impress me a lot more than Jones'.


Who hendricks? johnny hendricks is now bigger and stronger than gsp? the same johnny hendricks that was over powered and lost to rick story? wow is this the same way you guys tried to make out gsp beating diaz was a monster feat despite the fact diaz habitually loses to wrestlers?


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## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> How can two former LHW champions who have only fought at LHW be natural MWs?


The same way Fedor only ever fought at HW despite being a natural LHW or even MW. BJ Penn fought half his career at WW. Doesn't change the fact that he's a natural LW, or even FW.



John8204 said:


> "Title" picture is a nebulous term.


You're right. Let's make it more clear by specifying _current_ title picture.



> Brandon Vera after facing Frank Mir drew Tim Sylvia the winner got a title fight.


6 years ago in a paper thin heavyweight division, and he lost.



> Also Vlad did fight for the title against Tito.


12 years ago, and he lost.



No_Mercy said:


> Last weekend really answered a ton of questions. How would he fare against an opponent with similar height and reach. We all got our answer.


Agreed.



> He's immensely talented and his record shows it. But there's something missing.


Agreed, again. 



> The LHW title holder is more powerful and utilizes that reach to the 10th degree. I've seen holes, now EVEN more so. He does not have defense other than circling with his chin tucked, right arm defending and left arm stretched out or sometimes both arms w/ fingers stretched out. I swear someone is going to do a flying arm bar on him.
> 
> The fact that he's getting tagged regularly shows the defensive holes. But he immediately goes for the takedown and it's almost game over when that happens especially when those elbows land.


Yes, there were definitely holes exposed. That takedown is crucial for Jones. When Gus was able to defend it, we really got to see what he was made of standing up. This is where that reach is so central to his game. I don't think people appreciate just how significant that reach advantage is. It's literally half an arm length or more. When you're at that kind of disadvantage, you have to be twice as fast as him to get inside and land on him. He just stands on the outside and throws kicks, and guys can't counter him because of that reach. 

Despite that, Gus was able to land clean and often at about 60% power. I could easily see him getting knocked out by a clean power shot, if a guy can land one. That reach is just such an obstacle. The one really effective offensive tool he showed was the elbows. I just don't think Gus was prepared for those standing up, he probably trained for them on the ground. That's the only thing that did real damage.



> Bottomline if someone can negate those takedowns, watch for those elbows, and Mike Tyson there way inside it could happen or stick and move (Gus style) it's very plausible. I'd prefer the Tyson style cuz that's going for the finish.


Yeah, being able to defend the takedown is crucial. After that, it's going to take either comparable reach, or significant speed advantage, or both, to get the better of the stand up.



> I just thought of something. Gus is an outside fighter who uses his range. Glover is an inside fighter who stands in the pocket. We get to see how the LHW title holder adapts to this and whether or not Glover can finish the job.


Glover has the power, but is he fast enough to get inside? I have my doubts. Not sure if the TDD is there, either.



> Ending notes. I also have to give credit to the champ because he kept coming forward. To me he wanted it more. I really think Gus had his moment where he was thinking, "wow I'm actually winning and beating this guy in the process. So much where he may have lost a tiny bit of focus on the END GOAL." I mean try for that takedown or anything and eat up the clock, don't let the champ press forward and finish you. It's all I'm saying. He came inches from completing his goal. Inches...


Jones showed some heart, no doubt about it. You're right about Gustaffson, but I think he just got tired. He was moving a lot. People thought Jones was the aggressor, but I think it was Gustaffson's plan to stay close to the cage. Jones' takedowns are very trip based, and the one takedown he landed was in the middle of the octagon. It was a good strategy, but very taxing.



> Great fight...and it's changed the landscape a bit which is always good for any division.


Agreed. Gustaffson had the performance of his career thus far, and I thought he barely won. Jones did well also, despite showing holes.

Also, thank you for actually understanding the purpose of the thread and making a meaningful contribution.



The Best Around said:


> Because they fought Jon Jones. Obviously everyone who fights him is conveniently not that good, a middleweight, or on the decline.


Straw man.



> It's baffling logic; if they are fighting at that weight class, that's the weight class they are.


Preposterous. Do you understand how weight cutting works? Do you think Gleison Tibau and Frankie Edgar are the same size? BJ Penn fought Lyoto Machida in an open weight fight where Machida outweighed BJ by 30 pounds. Obviously, Machida is the bigger guy despite the fact they both could have cut to 185. If they had done so, by your logic, they would suddenly be the same size, despite Machida being much bigger on fight night. No offense, but this is weight cutting 101.



> That's like saying for Bonnar-Silva that Bonnar is trying to beat up on a middlweight.


He was. 

Why do you think it's so significant when a champ moves up to fight a champ in a higher weight class? Because if he wins, despite being the smaller guy, it becomes clear that he is the more skilled fighter. This is p4p 101.



> It's idiotic and just makes people like that poster look like fools.


If/when you understand the above concepts and can form an actual argument, feel free to come back and we can discuss it. Until then, try not to come in and throw around meaningless insults and fallacious arguments when you don't even understand the topic.



Kreed said:


> Who hendricks? johnny hendricks is now bigger and stronger than gsp?


No doubt in my mind.



> the same johnny hendricks that was over powered and lost to rick story?


1) Rick Story is also a powerhouse.
2) Hendricks has upped his strength and conditioning. He is bigger and stronger than he was 3 years ago.
3) There is more to wrestling than brute strength.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Pound for pound is a fallacy period. 


Every fighter has tough fights here and there, Jones looked human and all the sudden he was overrated? whatever.

He'll crush a few guys and people will remember he's unbeaten for a reason.


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## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

slapshot said:


> Pound for pound is a fallacy period.


It's purely speculative, but people still discuss it. If it's going to be discussed, it needs to be done with an objective eye. 



> Ever fighter has tough fights here and there, Jones looked human and all the sudden he was overrated? whatever.


If you look back, you'll see that I made this thread 5 months ago. Once again, I never said Jones was overrated. I said his record and p4p status is overstated purely because of the name value of the guys he's fought and a lack of elite competition.



> He'll crush a few guys and people will remember he's unbeaten for a reason.


That reason being equal parts his skill and his competition.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

_redruM_ said:


> It's purely speculative, but people still discuss it. If it's going to be discussed, it needs to be done with an objective eye.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And your still wrong, who else is going to finish off the top ten in that division? Jones is ranked highly because he finishes top fighters and he wins. 

For comparison, GSP wins but he cant finish the top guys in his division. still the fighters Jones has destroyed didnt get their recognition and status for being pussies and flops.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

slapshot said:


> And your still wrong, who else is going to finish off the top ten in that division? Jones is ranked highly because he finishes top fighters and he wins.
> 
> For comparison, GSP wins but he cant finish the top guys in his division. still the fighters Jones has destroyed didnt get their recognition and status for being pussies and flops.


The difference is Jones just got his ass kicked pretty solidly for the majority of a fight. GSP has been caught what twice in his entire career? GSP has NEVER looked like Jones did on Saturday. GSP dominates in every category and even beats people at their own games. Finishing is mute when you look at pure dominance... which Jones just lost in.

This is also the same reason why I had GSP as #1 even before Silva lost. Silva had a glaring weakness in his game. Jones just proved he can be outstruck by someone with equal reach. GSP has no weaknesses and beats everyone in every area. That is what makes him the greatest.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Kreed said:


> *if hes going to be lauded the GOAT or numero uno on the p4p list he should at least have 1 finish over a peer just 1*.I hear the excuse that hes against the creme de la creme yet his contemporaries manage to finish opponents hes faced. I dont see how him not having ko power is an excuse his forte is wrestling, is it not? How do wrestlers usually finish fights? gnp but the excuse there is he cant help not having a killer instinct, right? so lets see cant ko, cant sub, cant gnp all he can do is win "contests" via way of unified rules.There is a reason hes reluctant to move up in weight and face MW. Incredible athlete, shrewd tactician but great fighter? nah


Says who? Where in the completely arbitrary definition of p4p, even taken loosely, does finishing an opponent have to do with anything? 

p4p is about who would win regardless of weight/size. The concept is based on which set of skills would be the greatest if all men were created equal. So why would finishing someone matter? Within MMA rules, as GSp has demonstrated, it doesn't. All you have to do is win. So why on earth are so many people caught up in finishing opponents when the rules in mma, and watching mma in practice, clearly demonstrate that finishing is not necessary to be at the top of your division, and therefor, a p4p list?


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

PheelGoodInc said:


> The difference is Jones just got his ass kicked pretty solidly for the majority of a fight. GSP has been caught what twice in his entire career? GSP has NEVER looked like Jones did on Saturday. GSP dominates in every category and even beats people at their own games. Finishing is mute when you look at pure dominance... which Jones just lost in.
> 
> This is also the same reason why I had GSP as #1 even before Silva lost. Silva had a glaring weakness in his game. Jones just proved he can be outstruck by someone with equal reach. GSP has no weaknesses and beats everyone in every area. That is what makes him the greatest.


GSP has not only lost but been finished both times. Im not even saying I have a issue with a fictitious ranking system or the fans that use it but Jones won the majority of the fight with Gus IMO. Hell Gus was saved by the bell in the forth.

Its odd that a lot of the ppl talking Gus up are at the same time attempting to discredit Jones(not you). I think we have the room to say Gus is awesome and Jones is awesomer. 

Maybe Jones and GSP should fight and then we can see who's better in reality, otherwise I think Superman would get steamrolled by Superman.


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## _redruM_ (Dec 30, 2007)

slapshot said:


> And your still wrong, who else is going to finish off the top ten in that division? Jones is ranked highly because he finishes top fighters and he wins.


Yes, he does. But top fighters at LHW and top fighters at nearly every other weight class are not the same thing. That's the focal point of this argument. 



> For comparison, GSP wins but he cant finish the top guys in his division.


Irrelevant.



> still the fighters Jones has destroyed didnt get their recognition and status for being pussies and flops.


Can't decipher that.



PheelGoodInc said:


> The difference is Jones just got his ass kicked pretty solidly for the majority of a fight. GSP has been caught what twice in his entire career? GSP has NEVER looked like Jones did on Saturday. GSP dominates in every category and even beats people at their own games. Finishing is mute when you look at pure dominance... which Jones just lost in.


Agreed 100%. 

Adding on that, what do you think is really more impressive, a finish or complete domination? I say domination. A finish can happen anytime between any two people on a fluke. You always hear people say "well, he's got a puncher's chance" or "anything can happen". How often do you hear people say "well, he's got a chance at dominating him every round if he gets lucky".



slapshot said:


> GSP has not only lost but been finished both times.


Both of which he avenged by completely dominating _and finishing_ in the rematches.



> Im not even saying I have a issue with a fictitious ranking system or the fans that use it but Jones won the majority of the fight with Gus IMO. Hell Gus was saved by the bell in the forth.


That's subjective. I thought Gus won, just barely. If not for that elbow, I suspect it would have been a clear victory.



> Its odd that a lot of the ppl talking Gus up are at the same time attempting to discredit Jones(not you).


I'm not discrediting Jones, I'm just trying to bring the credit he does get back down to reality. 



> Maybe Jones and GSP should fight and then we can see who's better in reality, otherwise I think Superman would get steamrolled by Superman.


That would prove nothing aside from what we already know: that Jones is much bigger than GSP. I'm going to assume sarcasm.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

slapshot said:


> GSP has not only lost but been finished both times. Im not even saying I have a issue with a fictitious ranking system or the fans that use it but Jones won the majority of the fight with Gus IMO. Hell Gus was saved by the bell in the forth.


Both finishes were by being caught, not by being outclassed. Similar to how Jones was a couple seconds away from having his arm snapped in half. No one could argue after that fight that Jones was a better fighter than Vitor. Being caught does not mean someone is better. It means they were better in that moment. If someone is dominating the fight and ends by KO'ing the other fighter, surely that is not the same as being caught. In the fight game, anyone can be better at any given moment. When you look at pure skill in each category as well as weaknesses displayed, GSP tops that list. That is how I rate my P4p.

No one has come close to out classing or even matching GSP in any area his entire career. Anderson and Jones can't say the same.

I think Gus clearly won the majority of that fight. Jones did the right things at the right time to win according to MMA judging. As far as winning the majority of 25 minutes, Gus did that hands down.



> Its odd that a lot of the ppl talking Gus up are at the same time attempting to discredit Jones(not you). I think we have the room to say Gus is awesome and Jones is awesomer.


I agree with that. I think it's safe to say Jones is the better fighter. He's more dangerous and has a better finishing ability Gus is just inches behind, and showing improvement in every fight.




> Maybe Jones and GSP should fight and then we can see who's better in reality, otherwise I think Superman would get steamrolled by Superman.


Clearly spiderman beats them both...


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