# MMA vs. JUDO chokes/armlocks



## Domen Lo (Jul 2, 2010)

Hello there!

This is my first post 

I've been an MMA fan for about 5 years and am usually getting into mma-is-not-a-sport discussions (guess which side).

This time I was in a discussion with a person that stated that there arent ANY NEW ARMLOCKS OR CHOKES outside of Judo, cause he *STUDIED JUDO AND THERE ARE NO WAY TO GET OUT OF BOTH.*

Then I started to offer to give him recorded footage of thousands of fights where the fighter got out of both (out of armlocks by spinning, out of chokes by a combination of rotation and pressure, ...)

Once he got this (offered) data, he continued to state that *THERE ARENT ANY NEW ARMLOCKS OR CHOKES FROM JUDO until today in the MMA*. I got pissed because I saw tens of them done both by BJJ or ***** fighters and also GR Wrestlers.

So I ask you guys!

Can you help me and name new armlocks and choke-holds that have been developed outside of Judo (BJJ/*****/*WHATEVER*) so that I can print out a list of them and stick it up his ... ?


*THANK YOU SO MUCH!*


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*List:*

Here it is:
1.Nami-juji-jime
2.Gyaku-juji-jime
3.Kata-juji-jime
4.Hadaka-jime
5.Okuri-eri-jime
6.Kata-ha-jime
7.Do-jime
8.Sode-guruma-jime
9.Kata-te-jime
10.Ryo-te-jime
11.Tsukkomi-jime
12.Sankaku-jime
13.Ude-garami
14.Ude-hishigi-juji-gatame
15.Ude-hishigi-ude-gatame
16.Ude-hishigi-hiza-gatame
17.Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame
18.Ude-hishigi-hara-gatame
19.Ashi-garami
20.Ude-hishigi-ashi-gatame
21.Ude-hishigi-te-gatame
22.Ude-hishigi-sankaku-gatame
23.Ashi-garami
24.Do-jime
25.Kani-basami
26.Kawazu-gake


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

kantowrestler said:


> Here it is:
> 1.Nami-juji-jime
> 2.Gyaku-juji-jime
> 3.Kata-juji-jime
> ...


Anyone ever seen *any* of these used inside the cage? :confused02:


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

Domen Lo said:


> Hello there!
> 
> This is my first post
> 
> ...


I train Judo too, and to my knowledge there are no chokes or armlocks that were invented outside of Judo. There were cases of BJJ guys thinking they invented omoplata or gogoplata but both of those existed in Judo, they just didn't know it. The thing is Judo has since 1993 restricted armlocks to the elbow joint and forbidden attacks on the shoulder or wrist, so some of the armlocks are no longer used. Which is silly since Ude Garami and Waki gatame attack both the shoulder and the elbow.

I think Iron Man could help us on this issue. Maybe the knows something about this.

PS: Kanto, that list is flawed. It has throws and holds in it besides submissions. And Lone Wolf, a lot of those have been used inside the cage.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Was he saying that you can't get out of chokes and armlocks that are properly applied because most escapes in MMA happen from improper technique. There is generally a point of no return when done right. *****'s grappling is essentially Judo and wrestling I believe and BJJ is an offshoot of Judo basically just a different system with the emphasis on the ground game and not throws and trips. Greco doesn't have submissions.


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## Judoka (Feb 23, 2007)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Anyone ever seen *any* of these used inside the cage? :confused02:


Yes, it's just Japanese names. Most of them have.

Hadaka jime - RNC, Guillotine.
Ude garami - Kimura
Sankaku jime - Triangle choke
etc etc etc

As for the question, most armlocks and chokes are in both BJJ and MMA, same things. The chokes that wouldn't are gi chokes and not in MMA for obvious reasons.

But there are newer submissions outside Judo like the gogoplata etc.

*Omaplata is in Judo despite what many think.

The answer to your question is the submissions that you can do without a gi on, are exactly the same pretty much.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

Judoka said:


> Yes, it's just Japanese names. Most of them have.
> 
> Hadaka jime - RNC, Guillotine.
> Ude garami - Kimura
> ...


Gogoplata isn't new to judo. It's called Kagato jime.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Gogoplata*

Yeah that is used in BJJ not judo!


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah that is used in BJJ not judo!


Did you see the picture I posted? :confused02:
Or was that a joke?


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Picture*

I'm guessing that's a Kagato jime?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

osmium said:


> Was he saying that you can't get out of chokes and armlocks that are properly applied because most escapes in MMA happen from improper technique. There is generally a point of no return when done right. *****'s grappling is essentially Judo and wrestling I believe and BJJ is an offshoot of Judo basically just a different system with the emphasis on the ground game and not throws and trips. Greco doesn't have submissions.


The original emphasis of Judo was submissions and was more similar to BJJ. The scoring system of sport judo is what changed the emphasis over time. 

What Osmium says about improper technique is right but what is also true is that your gonna have an extremely hard time getting any kind of submission 100% locked perfectly against somebody with the level of training todays MMA fighters have. Even a guy like Fabricio Werdum is not gonna get a perfect submission locked on, he may get it good enough to get the tap but todays MMA fighters are in general good grappler's. Maybe if you had like Werdum/Kimbo your would see it perfectly executed.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> I'm guessing that's a Kagato jime?


Exactly. Done by Judokas long time ago.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Freelancer said:


> Did you see the picture I posted? :confused02:
> Or was that a joke?


It's par for the course.

This thread could get awesome, or it could turn into a moronic back-and-forth.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Moronic Back-and-Forth*

Yeah the judo moves that only get used are throws!


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah the judo moves that only get used are throws!


Do you see the irony of what you just posted?

There is/are ground fighting and joint locks in judo.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Ground Fighting*

Yeah but there are so few judoku in American MMA that the joint locks and chokes aren't seen that often, this weekend being an exception of course cause of Akiyama!


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

There is a lot of substance in this post, and I've got a lot to say, so bear with me. If you want to see my response to your content, as opposed to the entirety of the thread, feel free to skip through and just respond to a section, but this kind of massive posting is how I roll, and it's why you guys love me (and why I was told to comment on the thread by someone I respect).



Domen Lo said:


> I've been an MMA fan for about 5 years and am usually getting into mma-is-not-a-sport discussions (guess which side).
> 
> This time I was in a discussion with a person that stated that there arent ANY NEW ARMLOCKS OR CHOKES outside of Judo, cause he *STUDIED JUDO AND THERE ARE NO WAY TO GET OUT OF BOTH.*


You are clearly arguing with an idiot.

There are hundreds of new chokes that don't exist in judo that have been added by Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioners over the years of competitive submission grappling. That's not to say that the judo techniques are in any way obselete, but there are a lot of additional submissions that have been added, and I can think of a half dozen just off the top of my head.



> Then I started to offer to give him recorded footage of thousands of fights where the fighter got out of both (out of armlocks by spinning, out of chokes by a combination of rotation and pressure, ...)


I said this already, but the guy is an idiot.

Clearly there are ways to escape the conventional chokes and armbars of BJJ. Once they're locked in, the fight is over, but they're not magic. They can be anticipated, they can be beaten. So can any and every submission.



> Once he got this (offered) data, he continued to state that *THERE ARENT ANY NEW ARMLOCKS OR CHOKES FROM JUDO until today in the MMA*. I got pissed because I saw tens of them done both by BJJ or ***** fighters and also GR Wrestlers.


Yeah, did this one already.



> Can you help me and name new armlocks and choke-holds that have been developed outside of Judo (BJJ/*****/*WHATEVER*) so that I can print out a list of them and stick it up his ... ?


Sure. But lets keep it obvious. I'm just going to work from the 10th Planet system of jiu-jitsu, a small (though unusually innovative) area of the grappling universe:

The Carni
The Wicked Gogoplata
The Peruvian Necktie (invented by Tony DeSouza, who's not really a part of 10th Planet; he did create it, though Ari isn't sure in the video)
And the list goes on. These are just off the top of my head. And I'm not going to deal with the monoplata and the issues with the differences brought about by no-gi grappling.



The Lone Wolf said:


> Anyone ever seen *any* of these used inside the cage? :confused02:


Many of them are basic submissions your familiar with. Some are not (because they require a gi), but most of them are basic submissions we see in MMA all the time.



Freelancer said:


> I train Judo too, and to my knowledge there are no chokes or armlocks that were invented outside of Judo. There were cases of BJJ guys thinking they invented omoplata or gogoplata but both of those existed in Judo, they just didn't know it. The thing is Judo has since 1993 restricted armlocks to the elbow joint and forbidden attacks on the shoulder or wrist, so some of the armlocks are no longer used. Which is silly since Ude Garami and Waki gatame attack both the shoulder and the elbow.


I'll get to why the omoplata and gogoplata don't exist in judo (at least as BJJ players understand them) even in the old style with respect to gogoplata a little later, but I want to make clear one thing:

*This is basically correct.*

Ude Garami is an incredibly common submission that everybody in MMA knows. They just don't know that it's a judo technique, and we don't see it in judo as much any more, because it acts as a shoulder lock in many cases (though not all).



> PS: Kanto, that list is flawed. It has throws and holds in it besides submissions.


The list is total jibberish. From what I can tell, there's no rhyme or reason to it whatsoever.

If this discussion is to be limited to armlocks and chokes, we should limit it to armlocks and chokes, and then we're cutting out an enormous portion of that list.

Also, the list includes ashi garami. While it's one of my favorite techniques, it's totally irrelevant to the discussion. You're in the wrong half of the body.



Freelancer said:


> Gogoplata isn't new to judo. It's called Kagato jime.


Just to be clear, because this is a huge pet peeve, as someone who considers myself pretty damn good at both of these submissions, they're not the same.

The both engage the shin as a primary choking mechanism, but kagato-jime demands control of the shoulder with the cross hand, as you would with a standard cross choke (nami juji-jime) in order to engage the choke.

If we're going to do what I think we should, and attribute the development of the modern gogoplata to Nino Schembri, it's worth noting that the move develops as much without the gi as with it. It's developed as gi-independent and as a trachea choke where the only grip point on the opponent is the shin (there are versions engaged by Schembri that use a grip on the toe; not my favorite version, but it works in a way that the position used in kagato-jime can't).

It's a common misconception, and I hear it a lot at judo competitions. However, the functional gogoplata that exists in BJJ is pretty different from kagato-jime as taught even in old school judo (which I've spent some time working with).



kantowrestler said:


> Yeah that is used in BJJ not judo!


This has already been pointed out, but you're a moron.

The fundamental BJJ arsenal is the arsenal of old judo. There is a more sophisticated game in the upper levels, but the fact that you don't know what a gogoplata looks like, and you don't know that that picture is clearly an old ass judo picture just annoys me too much.



kantowrestler said:


> Yeah the judo moves that only get used are throws!


This is ridiculous. I mean, it's straight ridiculous.

The straight armbar is a judo move! The triangle choke is a judo move! Even north/south position is a judo move!

These are things that come from judo. If you're not educated on judo enough to know that, fine. But when someone like Freelancer is trying to explain it to you and you just ignore him, it's going to piss everyone off.



kantowrestler said:


> Yeah but there are so few judoku in American MMA that the joint locks and chokes aren't seen that often, this weekend being an exception of course cause of Akiyama!


See above section.

When someone like Leben chokes out Akiyama with a triangle choke, he's using a judo technique. Now, has that technique changed in submission grappling and BJJ slightly, but not in terms of essential theory. We see judo everywhere, those of us who know what it looks like, just like we see BJJ everywhere, and wrestling.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Wrestling*

Yeah wrestling has been around longer than either BJJ or judo combined!


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

Hey, Iron man, I don't understand how do you differentiate the BJJ gogoplata vs kagato jime. If the basic move is the shin choke, does it matter how you grip your opponent? Doing an armbar from your back is different from doing it when in mount but it's still an armbar...:dunno:


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## Domen Lo (Jul 2, 2010)

Thanks for the exhaustive reply, really appreciate it! Thanks everyone for the help, hopefully the next chat will be satisfactory


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

What is the carni in that video that modified omoplata? How applicable is the wicked gogoplata also with you not controling the arm on the side where you grip? It seems like a really good way to setup an armbar more than anything. 

I don't know if I would really consider submissions that operate on the same principles but have slightly different positions and setups as completely new submissions. That is just more of a natural evolution of older moves to me.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Freelancer said:


> Hey, Iron man, I don't understand how do you differentiate the BJJ gogoplata vs kagato jime. If the basic move is the shin choke, does it matter how you grip your opponent? Doing an armbar from your back is different from doing it when in mount but it's still an armbar...:dunno:


Yeah, I didn't take much time in this last night because there was a lot to say in that post, but (a) kagato jime is not just a shin choke (it's taught often as a blood choke that uses the shin and the wrist) and (b) it matters very much how you grip your opponent because it's going to radically change the angle of the choke, the point of pressure (trachea as opposed to artery) and the posture of your opponent.

A straight armbar is a straight armbar regardless of set-up. We're not talking about set-up. We're talking about the execution of the technique as you finish.

Kagato jime requires a collar grip, it doesn't require controlling the back/neck of your opponent, it doesn't require manipulating posture (as an extension of not controlling the back) and it doesn't require a manipulation of the shoulder that leads to a bend in the elbow (one of the primary features of a gogoplata).

Now, if you execute a BJJ style gogoplata, many judo instructors will look at it and say "wow, that's basically kagato jime." They're wrong.

As I've already said, kagato jime is a blood choke which engages a connection to the gi. The gogoplata is neither of those things. And that's a major technical distinction. It's the difference between okuri eri jime and hadaka jime.



osmium said:


> What is the carni in that video that modified omoplata?


The carni operates in a way similar to an omoplata. Again, it's a totally different move. It doesn't require control of the opponent's hip (one of the primary parts of the omoplata) and it doesn't require sitting up and out to finish.

If anything, the carni is closer to what might be called a converted (as opposed to inverted) omoplata. But it's definitely a different technique. You can't just do it on accident from the omoplata.




> How applicable is the wicked gogoplata also with you not controling the arm on the side where you grip? It seems like a really good way to setup an armbar more than anything.


I don't know what you're talking about when you say "the side where you grip." The side where you don't control the arm is not particularly relevant in the application of a wicket gogoplata or a regular gogoplata. The other side, which is the side where you pin the arm to the floor to initiate either the carni, or the omoplata, or the regular gogoplata, or any number of other attacks, still maintains control of the arm.

Can you set up the armbar from a gogoplata? Absolutely. If you turn your hips over and belly-down, you already have the position for an armbar locked up.

Once you have the additional lock in for the wicked gogoplata, though, you give up that mobility with your hips for tighter control of the head and heavier pressure with your calfs. You can't set up an armbar from the position, so I don't know what your talking about.



> I don't know if I would really consider submissions that operate on the same principles but have slightly different positions and setups as completely new submissions. That is just more of a natural evolution of older moves to me.


There's a level of speciation in martial arts. All joint locks operate on similar principles of hyperextension. All chokes operate on similar principles of compression. There are an enormous number of moves (triangle, inverted triangle, darse, anaconda, peruvian necktie) that operate on the same principles but are different moves.

The way in which the body is compressing the opponent is different, the muscles your engaging to finish are different, the limbs are different, the angles are different, etc.

There's a point where saying "it's operating on the same principles, so it's the same move" is kind of irrelevant. The reason we distinguish between moves is (a) so that instructors know that they have to teach each of those individual moves separately (as opposed to simply teaching variations on the triangle) and (b) so that we can see the way that the submissions feed into each other in competition. Often you're switching principles when you're chaining together submissions, but that's beside the point.

The point is this: nami juji-jime and the guillotine choke operate on the same principles. They're different techniques. The engage different muscles, have different grip points, different points of contact and different postures. They don't look the same. The same is true of many of the distinctions we're drawing here.

The carni and the omoplata don't look the same at all. Kagato jime and gogoplata don't look the same. Just because you have a point of contact that's shared, or a shared joint that your attacking, doesn't mean you're using the same technique, or even a variation. They're different techniques.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

I am saying to get the crush you have to grip the ankle on the side where you don't have an arm isolated(doesn't a normal gogoplata have you griping the ankle coming over the top on the side you have the arm isolated with the leg under their throat). It seems like that would be hard to finish someone who knows what they are doing with because you would just need wrist control to prevent that and if you don't already have it completely sunk in there is a mostly open side where you have a free arm to try and push the foot away from your throat. You would be in a position to get an omoplata or armbar once they clear it however because you still have the other arm isolated. 

So my question is are there some nuances about it that I am missing that would prevent this scenario from playing out the majority of the time. Also is it used as a means to setup armbars and omoplatas by forcing you to defend it much like switching between armbars and triangles.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

To tell you the truth, this gogoplata/kagato jime situation reminds me of some throws. There are a lot of throws in judo, but some of them could be described as a mere variation of others. Like tsuri goshi and uki goshi, the only difference is that you grab the belt in the first one, even though you can grab it under and over the opponent's arm. But I guess that there is enough of a difference between gogo and kagato jime to call them different moves.

BTW, Iron Man, have you seen these clips? It's Tsunetane Oda demonstrating Judo ground moves.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Videos*

That's some good technique!


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## QuickJack (Jul 5, 2010)

What I'd really like to see more in MMA is Jeet Kun Do, Way of the Intercepting Fist, which was developed by Bruce Lee. Its an amazing form, but no one does it. Sigh..


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Jeet Kun Do*

Yeah interesting considering that everyone says that Bruce Lee was the father of MMA!


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah interesting considering that everyone says that Bruce Lee was the father of MMA!


For hopefully what will be the last but surely will not Bruce Lee has as much to do with MMA as Steven Segal. Chuck Norris has more to do with MMA than Bruce Lee.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Chuck Norris*

Are you talking about that World Combat League?


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

osmium said:


> I am saying to get the crush you have to grip the ankle on the side where you don't have an arm isolated(doesn't a normal gogoplata have you griping the ankle coming over the top on the side you have the arm isolated with the leg under their throat).


The ankle is not a grip point in the gogoplata, in any variation I'm aware of. Ideally, the ankle is under the throat, so you can't reach around and grab it.

The standard grip points are the back of the head and the big toe or foot, reaching around.



> It seems like that would be hard to finish someone who knows what they are doing with because you would just need wrist control to prevent that and if you don't already have it completely sunk in there is a mostly open side where you have a free arm to try and push the foot away from your throat. You would be in a position to get an omoplata or armbar once they clear it however because you still have the other arm isolated.


O.K. Two points here:

Firstly, they can't control the wrist your using to compress the choke, because the arm on that side is trapped and they're being forced out from the omoplata position, so they can't reach across.

Second, there is always a concern that they'll use the off hand to push down the foot to keep pressure off the throat. Then you transition to the omoplata (the armbar requires a major twist in the hips, and is a little extreme off of that move) or just work a little quicker to lock down the submission, since that grip on the foot is not that strong.



> So my question is are there some nuances about it that I am missing that would prevent this scenario from playing out the majority of the time. Also is it used as a means to setup armbars and omoplatas by forcing you to defend it much like switching between armbars and triangles.


There are nuances, but that's a different thread.



Freelancer said:


> To tell you the truth, this gogoplata/kagato jime situation reminds me of some throws. There are a lot of throws in judo, but some of them could be described as a mere variation of others. Like tsuri goshi and uki goshi, the only difference is that you grab the belt in the first one, even though you can grab it under and over the opponent's arm. But I guess that there is enough of a difference between gogo and kagato jime to call them different moves.


I certainly think so.



> BTW, Iron Man, have you seen these clips? It's Tsunetane Oda demonstrating Judo ground moves.


No, but they're very good, despite the iffy video quality.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Very good*

Any master at something is very good at it!


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

kantowrestler said:


> Any master at something is very good at it!


Please try to contribute something more than stating the obvious. It would be greatly appreciated.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Greatly appreciated*

Ok, judo is an art which require much committment!


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

kantowrestler said:


> Ok, judo is an art which require much committment!


This is also obvious.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Obvious*

Ok, judo masters are some of the best in the world and judo fighters make good MMA fighters though clearly there needs to be some improvement!


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