# Strikeforce top 10 per weight class



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

*UFC86s Strikeforce Top 10 Per Weight Class*

HW
1. Alistair Overeem (Champion)
2. Fabricio Werdum (beat Fedor)
3. Fedor Emelianenko
4. Antonio Silva (former Elite XC champion)
5. Brett Rogers
6. Andrei Arlovski
7. Sergei Kharitonov
8. Bobby Lashley
9. Shane Del Rosario
10. winner of Daniel Cormier and Lavar Johnson
other contenders: Josh Barnett, Sylvia, Batista, Walker, Ray Sefo, Rizzo, Yvel, Paul Buentello, Valentjin Overeem

LHW
1. King Mo(C)
2. Roger Gracie (ADCC champ)
3. Mousasi (former champ)
4. Babalu (former champ)
5. Dan Henderson (former UFC and Pride champion)
6. Mike Kyle
7. Rafael Feijao
8. Abongo
9. Antwain Britt
10. Kevin Randleman
others: Soko, Ninja Rua, George Bush, Aaron Rosa

MW
1. Jacare (Abu Dhabi champ)
2. Robbie Lawler
3. Jorge Santiago
4. Matt Lindland
5. Tim Kennedy
6. Luke Rockhold
7. Jason Miler
8. Melvin Manhoef
9. Misaki
10. Joey Villasenor
others: Benji Radach, Karl Amoussou, Prangley, Khalidov, Leites, Cung Le, Nakamura

WW
1. Nick Diaz
2. Paul Daley
3. Nick Thompson
4. Roger Bowling
5. Scott Smith (dropping to 170)
6. Evangelista Cyborg (dropping to 170)
7. Siyar (dropping to 170)
8. Andre Galvao
9. Joe Riggs
10. Tyron Woodley 
others: Nathan Coy, Paul Bradley, Tarec Saffiedine, JT Money, Karo,(Jay Hieron is a free agent)

LW
1. Melendez (c)
2. Thomson (former champion)
3. Aoki
4. Kawajiri
5. Beerbohm
6. Shaolin
7. Zaromskis (possible drop to 155)
8. JZ
9. Noons
10. Billy Evangelista
others: Jorge Gurgel, Mike Aina, Rodrigo Damm, Justin Wilcox


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I don't think Roger Gracie is number two in the LHW division. The heavyweights are pretty accurate though!:thumbsup:


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

look at how high Maia and Jacare are ranked in the world rankings. if King Mo's sole wrestling took him to number 1,Gracie should be at least #2


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah but he doesn't have the experience to be number two!:thumbsdown:


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## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

Bobby Lashley LOL.


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## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

JimmyJames said:


> Bobby Lashley LOL.


I laughed about that, too. He has proven absolutely nothing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not counting him out, but ranking him this early is ******* crazy.


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

I dont know strikeforces roster well enough to go top 10. But i do think Bobby Lashley would come in right around 10 in strikeforce. He is 3 wins away from a potential championship bout. Granted he needs to step up in competition for the other 2 fights.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

HW 

I think Werdum should be considered ranked higher than Overeem. He has a better record, more quality wins, and beat Overeem.

LHW

Roger Gracie should not be in the top 7.

MW

Lindland is ranked too high. Miller is ranked too low.

WW

Wow strikeforce's WW division is sparce with talent

LW

There are some fighters in there aren't strikeforce fighters.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah three wins would put him in title contention in mid to late 2011, so I don't think Coker's desire for a title shot in early 2011 is going to work!:thumbsdown:


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

JimmyJames said:


> Bobby Lashley LOL.


oh this guy wrestled for the wwe lmao he cannot fight in mma or be ranked it in roflcopter....



rockybalboa25 said:


> HW
> 
> I think Werdum should be considered ranked higher than Overeem. He has a better record, more quality wins, and beat Overeem.
> 
> ...


its true that Werdum done alot more at HW then Alistair, but so did most of the fighters in the top 10. this is SF rankings so the champ is ranked #1.

Roger Gracie though not as accomplished as Babalu or Henderson would be favorite coming into any fight in the top 10, maybe except for Mo and Mousasi. look at how far Jacare has gotten in the rankings and he came from the same background.

Matt Lindland is one of the most accomplished fighters in MW in his day.

WW has fighters that were either in the UFC or have a good chance in being there soon, so its not that scarce.

Kawajiri is the fighter you refer to as "some" fighters not in SF, but hes in dream and they work together with SF.


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## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

Hendo not ranked in MW and listed as (former UFC champion) when.... he wasn't .... I mean if you count the tournaments but... there really isnt a title for that.


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

Lashley fears Del Rosario, therefore Del Rosario should be ranked higher than Lashley...

Saffiedine should probably crack the WW rankings.

But I love that you didn't rank Cung Le  Wholeheartedly agree with that..


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Who is Saffiedine?


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> Who is Saffiedine?


He's solid. Decent skillset, and usually pushes the pace pretty well. Originally from Belgium and now trains with Team Quest in Temecula these days if I recall correctly... Don't really expect championship potential out of him, but could see him cracking _THAT_ top 10


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Has he been on a main card yet?


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

whats with the hate for the welterweights???
you got Nick Diaz and Paul Daley who are still ranked top 10 in the world on alot of sites. Nick Thompson has a win over Paul Daley and Riggs got a win over Diaz. 3 guys dropping weight (Siyar, Cyborg, Scott Smith) and thats always a potential for better results. you got Andre Galvao, Roger Bowling and Tyron Woodley as well and they could be the future of the divison in any org. look at the other weightclasses rankings 6-10 they arent great either


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Not to mention all the up and coming ShoMMA stars!:thumbsup:


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> oh this guy wrestled for the wwe lmao he cannot fight in mma or be ranked it in roflcopter....
> 
> 
> 
> its true that Werdum done alot more at HW then Alistair, but so did most of the fighters in the top 10. this is SF rankings so the champ is ranked #1.


I can see that, except that he's only fought in Strikeforce twice and neither guy is a top fighter. 



UFC86 said:


> Roger Gracie though not as accomplished as Babalu or Henderson would be favorite coming into any fight in the top 10, maybe except for Mo and Mousasi. look at how far Jacare has gotten in the rankings and he came from the same background.


Rankings are based on accomplishments. I also don't think the odds would be Gracie's favor against Babalu or hendo.



UFC86 said:


> Matt Lindland is one of the most accomplished fighters in MW in his day.


But his day is over. He hasn't beaten anyone good in years. He is 2-2 in last 4. 



UFC86 said:


> WW has fighters that were either in the UFC or have a good chance in being there soon, so its not that scarce.


But we're talking about Strikeforce. So by your own statement, I was right that the division is sparce.



UFC86 said:


> Kawajiri is the fighter you refer to as "some" fighters not in SF, but hes in dream and they work together with SF.


But he and others are Dream fighters not strikeforce. So they shouldn't be ranked in Strikeforce.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I can see that, except that he's only fought in Strikeforce twice and neither guy is a top fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


a champion should be ranked #1 in the promotion. his victory over Rogers was a complete domination too and Rogers is top 5.

i may have gone overboard with Roger Gracie, but hes got alot of potential and could beat anyone outside the ufc at 205.i would move him to 5th

Lindland lost to Jacare and Vitor Belfort who are both at the top of the MW divison. he won every other fight he had. also wrestlers tend to be good for many years (look at Randy Couture).

my point about the ww division is that it has fighters that either deserved to be in UFC or UFC prospects meaning they are top level fighters.

Strikeforce and Dream are working together and Dream sends fighters to compete in SF even for title fights


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah when is DREAM going to allow the Strikeforce Champions to fight for their titles?


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Who is Saffiedine?


A ******* awesome fighter.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Hope we see him on a better card!:thumbsup:


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

No way is Roger Gracie #2.

He hasn't defeated anybody.... Feijao, Kyle, Mousasi and Babalu are certainly above him... no question...


and there are certainly others who are arguably above him. I'd probably put him at # 9 or 10. Maybe lower. 

His most solid victory is Kevin Randalman. And right now anybody can beat Randalman.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> a champion should be ranked #1 in the promotion. his victory over Rogers was a complete domination too and Rogers is top 5.
> 
> i may have gone overboard with Roger Gracie, but hes got alot of potential and could beat anyone outside the ufc at 205.i would move him to 5th
> 
> ...


Rogers is top 5 in strikeforce, but he's not better than most of the HWs out there. A win over Rogers is not a big achievement.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah not since back to back losses to Fedor and Overeem!


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> oh this guy wrestled for the wwe lmao he cannot fight in mma or be ranked it in roflcopter....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seems to me these aren't current rankings. More of a projected outcome. You talk about what other guys "HAVE" done, and say "why can't he do the same?". But those are not rankings, those are who you think has the potential to move up there.

Ranking guys with a coupel fights makes no sense. Rankings are current, not future predictions.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Seems to me these aren't current rankings. More of a projected outcome. You talk about what other guys "HAVE" done, and say "why can't he do the same?". But those are not rankings, those are who you think has the potential to move up there.
> 
> Ranking guys with a coupel fights makes no sense. Rankings are current, not future predictions.


this is who i believe is the better fighters. who won in the past or who is projected to win is just evidence for my claims.

Roger Gracie beat a former UFC title challenger and champion yuki kondo and kevin randleman. randleman is currently ranked 10th in strikeforce. this makes roger gracie a top 10. considering other fighters ranked 6-9 havent had any meaningful wins in mma, roger gracie gotta be at least top 5. he has also potential in the future in the ufc unlike henderson and babalu who are 5th and 4th because the ufc wasnt interested in them.so putting Roger Gracie behind them when he is the future is meaningless.so putting him together with king mo and mousasi made sense


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Since when was Yuki Kondo a champion?


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Since when was Yuki Kondo a champion?


yeah, a title challenger and a champion in kondo and randleman respectively. kondo was a title challenger and randleman was the champion. kondo beat some good fighters as well in his day


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Wait, wasn't Kondo a champion in DEEP or Pancrease?


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

well i guess Lashley is off the top 10...
king mo is below Feijao (who should be ranked #1)
Tim Kennedy is 2nd right behind Jacare
Nick Thompson is off the top 10. Saffiedine is in the top 10
Noons Closer to Number 1.
Jay Hieron is officially free agent


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

HW
1. Alistair Overeem (Champion)
2. Fabricio Werdum (beat Fedor)
3. Fedor Emelianenko (former #1)
4. Antonio Silva (former Elite XC champion)
5. Brett Rogers
6. Sylvia/Rizzo winner
7. Andrei Arlovski
8. Sergei Kharitonov
9. Daniel Cormier
10. Chad Griggs
others: Lashley, Batista, Walker, Ray Sefo, Yvel, Valentjin Overeem, Lavar Johnson, 
Josh Barnett (if he doesnt test positive #4), Shane Del Rosario (possible drop to 205)

LHW
1. Rafael "Feijao" (C)
2. King Mo(former champ)
3. Mousasi (former champ)
4. Babalu (former champ)
5. Dan Henderson (former UFC and Pride champion)
6. Roger Gracie
7. Mike Kyle
8. Abongo
9. Soko
10. Randleman
others: Tony Lopez, Antwain Britt, Aaron Rosa

MW
1. Jacare (C, adcc champ)
2. Tim Kennedy
3. Robbie Lawler
4. Matt Lindland
5. Jason Miller
6. Luke Rockhold
7. Karl Amoussou
8.Prangley
9.Joey Villasenor
10. Benji Radach
others: Khalidov/Santiago/Manhoef/Misaki/Nakamura (fight mostly in Japan), Cung Le(movies)Kang/Leites/Lutter/Filho (will be very hard to clean the skid they had with zuffa)

WW
1. Nick Diaz (c)
2. Joe Riggs
3. Jesse Taylor
4. Evangelista Cyborg
5. Paul Daley 
6. Scott Smith (dropping to 170)
7. Siyar (dropping to 170)
8. Tyron Woodley
8. Roger Bowling
9. Andre Galvao
10. Tarec Saffiedine 
others: Paul Bradley, Nathan Coy

LW
1. Melendez (c)
2. Thomson (former champion)
3. Beerbohm
4. Shaolin
5. Noons
6. Billy Evangelista
7. JZ Calvan
8. Zaromskis (possible drop to 155)
9. Jorge Gurgel
10. Justin Wilcox
others: Pat Healy, Mike Aina, 
Aoki/Kawajiri (in DREAM currently)


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> HW
> 1. Alistair Overeem (Champion)
> 2. Fabricio Werdum (beat Fedor)
> 3. Fedor Emelianenko
> ...


This is a good list... the only name I'd argue is Mike Kyle.

I think he should be above Dan Henderson in that #5 spot. He's 5 wins and 1 NC in his last 6. Just finished a solid prospect in Abongo and he also holds a victory over Feijao the Champion.

Hendo hasn't competed at LHW in STRIKEFORCE yet and he was 0-1 at LHW in the UFC. He doesn't have a LHW victory since PRIDE if I remember correctly. No way is he top 5 in any org at LHW until he picks up at least one solid win in that weight class IMO.


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## Dakota? (Dec 27, 2009)

Why is Jason Miller so low in middleweight? hes like 3 or 4 IMO


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Dakota? said:


> Why is Jason Miller so low in middleweight? hes like 3 or 4 IMO


He's defeated Kang, avenged his loss to Kennedy and defeated Lawler so I can see your argument.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> He's defeated Kang, avenged his loss to Kennedy and defeated Lawler so I can see your argument.


this argument must be a joke.
his win over kang was before he went to ufc and before his loss to Kennedy (2003)
his wins over Lawler and Kennedy were over 3 years ago before they improved their ranking.
he won 2 of his last 5 fights against no name fighters outside of strikeforce. he fought only 3 times in the last 2 years. he never beat a top fighter when they were ranked. where should he be ranked? should he be ranked at all?


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

So he beat a bunch of people before it was important?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> this argument must be a joke.
> his win over kang was before he went to ufc and before his loss to Kennedy (2003)
> his wins over Lawler and Kennedy were over 3 years ago before they improved their ranking.
> he won 2 of his last 5 fights against no name fighters outside of strikeforce. he fought only 3 times in the last 2 years. he never beat a top fighter when they were ranked. where should he be ranked? should he be ranked at all?


Well let's go ahead and break down your rebuttal.

He holds a win over Lawler. Lawler never avenged that loss. And has been defeated since by Jake Sheilds and Renato Sobral....

He holds a win over Kennedy... Kennedy has not avenged that loss and just dropped a fight to Souza...

Now listen very carefully. Here's the kicker... the initial argument was not that he should be ranked higher than either fighter, so don't get that misconstrued.


The argument was that he should be ranked higher on the list than #7. 

But if you can argue ranking somebody like say.... Matt Lindland higher than him, please...indulge us...


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Well let's go ahead and break down your rebuttal.
> 
> He holds a win over Lawler. Lawler never avenged that loss. And has been defeated since by Jake Sheilds and Renato Sobral....
> 
> ...


its pretty simple
his wins over lawler and kennedy were over three years ago.
he won only 2 of his last 5 fights outside of strikefore, and he fought only 3 times in the last 2 years.

Matt Lindland holds victories over Baroni, Miletich, Travis Lutter etc who were at the top at the time, even though it was years ago.he was robbed a decision against Rampage (at 205), following that beat Jeremy Horn and Carlos Newton and when he fought fedor (at HW, 2 weightclasses above) he was ranked top 5 in the world at middleweight. he only lost recently to Jacare and Belfort...

so unlike Jason Miller, he was at the time a top fighter and havent lost any significant bouts. until Miller beats a top guy he will be below Lindland.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

most recentupdate:

HW
1. Alistair Overeem (Champion)
2. Fabricio Werdum (beat Fedor)
3. Fedor Emelianenko (former #1)
4. Antonio Silva (former Elite XC champion)
5. Brett Rogers
6. Sylvia/Rizzo winner
7. Andrei Arlovski
8. Sergei Kharitonov
9. Daniel Cormier
10. Chad Griggs
others: Lashley, Batista, Walker, Ray Sefo, Yvel, Valentjin Overeem, Lavar Johnson, 
Josh Barnett (if he doesnt test positive #4), Shane Del Rosario (possible drop to 205)

LHW
1. Rafael "Feijao" (C)
2. King Mo(former champ)
3. Mousasi (former champ)
4. Babalu (former champ)
5. Dan Henderson (former UFC and Pride champion)
6. Roger Gracie
7. Mike Kyle
8. Abongo
9. Soko
10. Randleman
others: Tony Lopez, Antwain Britt, Aaron Rosa

MW
1. Jacare (C, adcc champ)
2. Tim Kennedy
3. Robbie Lawler
4. Matt Lindland
5. Jason Miller
6. Luke Rockhold
7. Karl Amoussou
8. Trevor Prangley
9.Joey Villasenor
10. Benji Radach
others: Khalidov/Santiago/Manhoef/Misaki/Nakamura (fight mostly in Japan), Cung Le(movies)Kang/Leites/Lutter/Filho (will be very hard to clean the skid they had with zuffa)

WW
1. Nick Diaz (c)
2. Joe Riggs
3. Jesse Taylor
4. Evangelista Cyborg
5. Paul Daley 
6. Scott Smith (dropping to 170)
7. Siyar (dropping to 170)
8. Tyron Woodley
9. Roger Bowling
10. Andre Galvao
others: Tarrec Saffiedine, Paul Bradley, Nathan Coy

LW
1. Melendez (c)
2. Thomson (former champion)
3. JZ Calvan
4. Beerbohm
5. Shaolin
6. Zaromskis (possible drop to 155)
7. Billy Evangelista
8. Noons
9. Mike Aina
10. Justin Wilcox
others: Pat Healy, Jorge Gurgel, 
Aoki/Kawajiri (in DREAM currently)


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

also matchups for the future:

Rogers vs Sylvia/Rizzo winner (test for Rogers)

Arlovski vs Kharitonov

Feijao vs Kyle 2

Feijao vs Mousasi 

Babalu vs Roger Gracie (test Gracie with BJJ specialst)

Abongo vs Soko

Mayhem vs Nick Diaz

Mayhem vs Lawler

Riggs vs Nigg Diaz 2 (3rd match if you count the hospital fight)

Scott Smith vs Daley


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## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

Del Rosario dropping to LHW has me intrigued...


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

yes Del Rosario vs Kyle/Feijao/Mousasi should all be interesting. the division is quickly becoming the best outside the UFC, when ironically it was among the weakest outside the UFC.
with Babalu, Hendo and Soko who were considered top fighters and King Mo Roger Gracie and Abongo on the rise it could become world class division.

edit: i should also drop Randleman out of the top 10 soon and put Del Rosario probably at 8 or 7.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> also matchups for the future:
> 
> Rogers vs Sylvia/Rizzo winner (test for Rogers)
> 
> ...


I have no desire to see Sylvia fight again, ever

Kharitnov is going to knock out glass jaw arlovski

I'd much rather see Feijao vs Mousasi than kyle.

I'm definitely with you on Diaz vs Miller. It's a much more intriguing fight than noons vs diaz.

Mayhem vs Lawler is also a good one.

Riggs vs Diaz is not a good fight imo.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I have no desire to see Sylvia fight again, ever
> 
> Kharitnov is going to knock out glass jaw arlovski
> 
> ...


i like Arlovski, but every ranking site would have Arlovski ranked higher then Kharitonov. if they will avoid boxing, their ***** will be interesting matchup.both fightes tried a pro boxing career.

Sylvia was not impressive in the last few years (since he was off the roids) but he took some good fights in Nog, Couture, Fedor, Mercer, Pudz, Buentello, and now Rizzo. he is definetly looking for celebrities, maybe HMC or Shaq should also be fitted with him.

Feijao vs Kyle should be next because Kyle already beat Feijao while Feijao is ranked higher and is the champ.reminds of the situation when Rampage fought Chuck for the title. did he deserve it? no, but he beat the champ before.

Riggs vs Diaz may or may not be good, but this fight has a huge story for a smalltime. they fought for 3 rounds, ended in controversial decision for riggs, then they fought in the hospital. it is better fight then Diaz-Noons because they are in different weightclass (how about Diaz sticking to ww a few times?)


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well Arlovski has been active recently, what has Kharitonov done recently?


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Well Arlovski has been active recently, what has Kharitonov done recently?


Why don't we look at what he hasn't done? He hasn't gotten Ko'd by Tireman. He also didn't lose to Bigfoot.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Why don't we look at what he hasn't done? He hasn't gotten Ko'd by Tireman. He also didn't lose to Bigfoot.


verified troll right there.

staying inactive ranks him higher then fighters that were in the mix?
Brett Rogers was 10-0 all finishes in the first round, similar to Carwin (who got a shot at the ufc title)
whats wrong with losing to bigfoot? hes top 4 easily.
and i guess theres not shame in losing to #1 ranked jeff monson right?

top 10 SF fighters P4P:

1. Werdum
2. Fedor
3. Jacare
4. Feijao
5. King Mo
6. Gilbert Melendez
7. Nick Diaz
8. Robbie Lawler
9. Tim Kennedy
10. Roger Gracie

honorable mention: alistair overeem,antonio silva, mousasi,Jorge Santiago, Thomson, Beerbohm, JZ


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> verified troll right there.
> 
> staying inactive ranks him higher then fighters that were in the mix?
> Brett Rogers was 10-0 all finishes in the first round, similar to Carwin (who got a shot at the ufc title)
> ...


I'm the troll says the man in red. I think Monson is a better fighter than Rogers. Also Sergei is the last man to beat the current Strikeforce champion, who was ranked high even when he was inactive.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I'm the troll says the man in red. I think *Monson is a better fighter than Rogers*. Also Sergei is the last man to beat the current Strikeforce champion, who was ranked high even when he was inactive.


:confused03:
this is my last response to this troll.

sergei beat overeem BEFORE he was morphing into Ubereem. you can also count shogun, liddell, arona etc as people who beat overeem. is liddell going to beat Overeem now?

p.s. i got the red mark from being ballsy and creating a suggestive thread despite some of the reactions it could receive because i felt i was right.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> :confused03:
> this is my last response to this troll.
> 
> sergei beat overeem BEFORE he was morphing into Ubereem. you can also count shogun, liddell, arona etc as people who beat overeem. is liddell going to beat Overeem now?
> ...


So you're saying that Sergei's win vs Overeem doesn't count, because Overeem hadn't started taking steroids yet? Well then Overeem shouldn't be ranked either because the only descent HW he's beaten since roiding up is Rogers. And Rogers is a midlevel guy at best.

You're red because you're a troll.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Give the guy credit for putting up this thread, why are you hating on him by giving him the red letter?


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Give the guy credit for putting up this thread, why are you hating on him by giving him the red letter?


He called me a troll. You might just want to stay out of it. Don't you have a mod/admin to piss off?


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

recent update:

HW
1. Alistair Overeem (Champion)
2. Fabricio Werdum (beat Fedor)
3. Fedor Emelianenko (former #1)
4. Antonio Silva (former Elite XC champion)
5. Brett Rogers
6. Sylvia/Rizzo winner (moving to Strikeforce)
7. Andrei Arlovski
8. Sergei Kharitonov
9. Daniel Cormier
10. Chad Griggs
others: Lavar Johnson, Lashley, Ray Sefo

LHW
1. Rafael "Feijao" (C)
2. King Mo(former champ)
3. Mousasi (former champ)
4. Babalu (former champ)
5. Dan Henderson (former UFC and Pride champion)
6. Roger Gracie
7. Mike Kyle
8. Del Rosario (dropping to 205)
9. Soko (returning to Strikeforce)
10. Abongo
others: Randleman, Antwain Britt, Aaron Rosa

MW
1. Jacare (C, adcc champ)
2. Tim Kennedy
3. Robbie Lawler
4. Matt Lindland
5. Jason Miller
6. Luke Rockhold
7. Karl Amoussou
8. Trevor Prangley
9.Joey Villasenor
10. Benji Radach
others: Cung Le (movies), Khalidov/Santiago/Manhoef/Misaki/Nakamura (fight mostly in Japan)

WW
1. Nick Diaz (c)
2. Joe Riggs
3. Jesse Taylor
4. Evangelista Cyborg
5. Paul Daley 
6. Scott Smith (dropping to 170)
7. Siyar (dropping to 170)
8. Tyron Woodley
9. Roger Bowling
10. Andre Galvao
others: Tarrec Saffiedine, Paul Bradley, Nathan Coy

LW
1. Melendez (c)
2. Thomson (former champion)
3. JZ Calvan
4. Beerbohm
5. Shaolin
6. Zaromskis (possible drop to 155)
7. Billy Evangelista
8. Noons
9. Mike Aina
10. Justin Wilcox
others: Pat Healy, Jorge Gurgel, 
Aoki/Kawajiri (in DREAM currently)


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

also a note on why Overeem is #1.
it has more to do with him being champion then anything else, but his performances in the last 2 years in k-1 and mma showed that he can beat anybody striking, and outmuscle most fighters in mma. since 2008 he finished all 7 of his opponents in the first round, not including Cro Cop who he dominated, as well as beating Rogers who Fedor beat in round 2.

still too early to tell where he ranks in the top 4


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> recent update:
> 
> HW
> 1. Alistair Overeem (Champion)
> ...



No way is Lindland above Miller

Khalidov is not signed to Strikeforce

Manhoef is signed to Strikeforce, but can't seem to pick up a win is more like it.

Noons has fought much tougher opponents than Evangelista and holds wins over Nick Diaz, Yves Edwards, and Dida...... Evangelistas biggest win is over Gurgel who Noons just owned and stopped in his last fight.......this puts Noons ahead of Evangelista.

Since when is Shane Delrosario dropping to 205? 
He just asked for Arlovski

Do you have a source for Pedro Rizzo saying that he's moving to STRIKEFORCE?

No way is Dan Henderson ahead of Mike Kyle at LHW. 
Dan Henderson hasn't recorded a victory in the LHW division since when?

Source for Zaromskis moving to 155?


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> No way is Lindland above Miller
> 
> Khalidov is not signed to Strikeforce
> 
> ...


Henderson scored a win over Rich Franklin in LHW in 2009. Mike Kyle has more wins than Hendo at LHW recently, however Hendo's win is more impressive. That being said I don't think Hendo can beat Kyle. Kyle is a gigantic LHW, and would give a lot of guys problems.

Also shouldn't we start rating noons as a WW, since he's fighting for the WW title?


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> No way is Lindland above Miller
> 
> Khalidov is not signed to Strikeforce
> 
> ...


whine whine whine, and still wrong wrong wrong 0/8

yes Lindland is above Miller, and i already discussed it. Lindland was top 5 in the world a few years back, miller was never even close and beat fighters before they were good and before they were top ranked

Khalidov is part of strikeforce, coker discussed matching up khalidov after he beat santiago. khalidov likes non-exclusive contracts and fighting in multiple organizations, thats why he rejected a ufc offer years ago.

manhoef cant pick up a win, yet he knocked out japanese top fighter in misaki

noons has only had 2 fights in strikeforce, while evangelista had 7. his win over Diaz was in ww and amade isnt even ranked. though if noons beats a top 10 in strikeforce i would up him 2 or 3 spots. Diaz does nothing for him except grudge

the source for Del Rosario dropping to 205 comes from a scott cowfield report by way of mauro renallo and quadros, though no official attempt has been made, but i dont see the point of him fighting arlovski who is coming off 3 straight losses.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog/ca...egit-big-boy-Kaufman-slams-the?urn=mma-257957

neither pedro rizzo nor tim sylvia are signed to strikeforce yet as they are fighting each other on another card. but the winner is very likely to go to strikeforce, as the favorite to win is tim sylvia, and he said he wants to go to strikeforce
http://www.mmaforreal.com/2010/5/18/1477606/tim-sylvia-wants-to-return-to-the

Dan Henderson is a similar situation to Matt Lindland. he was the champion in his weight and was ranked top 5 for a long time. kyle had 2 fights at 205 in SF both against up and comers. if he beats a top 5 fighter or beats Feijao again he will be above Dan Henderson

Marius Zaromskis is a small ww coming off two losses in the division. his situation is similar to Del Rosario in that no attempt on his part was made to cut, but a lot of talk was going of him dropping, and it will happen in the future.i can rank both of them at 10th in HW and WW respectively, but whats the point?


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

also note:
fighters that will be making their debut in a lower weight class: scott smith, siyar

fighters that SHOULD drop a weight class but did not attempt yet:
Del Rosario from HW to LHW
Zaromskis from WW to LW
Daniel Cormier from HW to LHW
Josh Thomson from LW to FW
Jorge Gurgel from LW to FW
Jesse Taylor stop fighting at MW stay at WW
Dan Henderson stop fighting at LHW stay at MW


----------



## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

woooow Kevin Randleman at 10th....thats sad


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

Joabbuac said:


> woooow Kevin Randleman at 10th....thats sad


its ok, dont worry, i updated the list recently and removed him from the top 10. the top 10 looks much better now


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> whine whine whine, and still wrong wrong wrong 0/8
> 
> yes Lindland is above Miller, and i already discussed it. Lindland was top 5 in the world a few years back, miller was never even close and beat fighters before they were good and before they were top ranked
> 
> ...


1. Lindland used to be good so he should be ranked higher?
2. Your source says nothing about Rizzo joining Strikeforce, who will probably win.
3. I agree with you on Henderson's ranking, but I we'll see how much gas he has left in the tank.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

fighters that might be top 2-3 soon (within the current roster), but are yet unproven: Del Rosario, Cormier, Roger Gracie, Mike Kyle, Jason Miller, Luke Rockhold, Paul Daley, Roger Bowling, Beerbohm, Billy Evangelista, Noons


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> whine whine whine, and still wrong wrong wrong 0/8


lol @ whine.... take it easy it's just a discussion.



UFC86 said:


> yes Lindland is above Miller, and i already discussed it. Lindland was top 5 in the world a few years back, miller was never even close and beat fighters before they were good and before they were top ranked


Basing a fighters ranking because he used to be good? That would have put Frank Shamrock in the top 5 as well than had he not retired using your logic.




UFC86 said:


> Khalidov is part of strikeforce, coker discussed matching up khalidov after he beat santiago. khalidov likes non-exclusive contracts and fighting in multiple organizations, thats why he rejected a ufc offer years ago.


Here's the thing, Mamed Khalidov has never fought on a Strikeforce card. And he's not signed to fight anybody at all.

Just because a fighter says that he'd like to involve or invite a fighter to participate doesn't mean that the fighter is on the roster.

Coker said he'd love to put together a Fedor/Lesnar fight a few months ago... does this mean that Brock Lesnar should be ranked on the STRIKEFORCE roster as well?





UFC86 said:


> manhoef cant pick up a win, yet he knocked out japanese top fighter in misaki


That was in 2009. That fight didn't just happen yesterday.... since that victory....he's lost 2 in a row. He's lost 3 of his last 4.



UFC86 said:


> noons has only had 2 fights in strikeforce, while evangelista had 7.


That means nothing. He holds victorys over tougher opponents.



UFC86 said:


> his win over Diaz was in ww and amade isnt even ranked. though if noons beats a top 10 in strikeforce i would up him 2 or 3 spots. Diaz does nothing for him except grudge


The calibur of opponents hes defeating is tougher than Evangelistas list. 

K.J. has beaten as you mentioed

Diaz and Amade

but he's also defeated Yves Edwards and Jorge Gurgel, he's the only fighter to ever knock JG out.

Evantelista fought to a decision with Gurgel.



UFC86 said:


> the source for Del Rosario dropping to 205 comes from a scott cowfield report by way of mauro renallo and quadros, though no official attempt has been made, but i dont see the point of him fighting arlovski who is coming off 3 straight losses.
> http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog/ca...egit-big-boy-Kaufman-slams-the?urn=mma-257957


According to your list Arlovski is ranked @ #7 so why wouldn't that fight make any sense for Shane to take? That would be a victory over a top 10 guy.

He hans't dropped to 205.

And he wants to be in the title hunt at HW according to his post fight interview after Mahe. 

There is absolutly no reason to rank him with the LHWs



UFC86 said:


> neither pedro rizzo nor tim sylvia are signed to strikeforce yet as they are fighting each other on another card. but the winner is very likely to go to strikeforce, as the favorite to win is tim sylvia, and he said he wants to go to strikeforce
> http://www.mmaforreal.com/2010/5/18/1477606/tim-sylvia-wants-to-return-to-the


Again he's not in Strikeforce and has never had a single fight in Strikeforce. You don't even know the type of money or conditions he's going to request or if that contract will ever be presented. You can't rank on speculation.



UFC86 said:


> Dan Henderson is a similar situation to Matt Lindland. he was the champion in his weight and was ranked top 5 for a long time.


Dude seriously Dan Henderson hasn't won a LHW fight since 2007. No way is he above Kyle.



UFC86 said:


> kyle had 2 fights at 205 in SF both against up and comers. if he beats a top 5 fighter or beats Feijao again he will be above Dan Henderson


He holds a victory over the #1 ranked LHW in Strikeforce... and he just killed Abongo. He's competed 4 times at LHW in the cage this year and he didn't lose any of those fights.

He's been doing alot more at LHW than Dan Henderson has, right now you're basing your rankings on nostalgia.



UFC86 said:


> Marius Zaromskis is a small ww coming off two losses in the division. his situation is similar to Del Rosario in that no attempt on his part was made to cut, but a lot of talk was going of him dropping, and it will happen in the future.i can rank both of them at 10th in HW and WW respectively, but whats the point?



The point is that Shane isn't a LHW fighter. He's a HW. And you are basing your rankings on rumor. 

There was talk of Roy Nelson dropping weight between commentators when he was fighing Dos Santos and about how quick he'd be at LHW. Doesn't mean it's gonna happen. 

You simply can not rank a fighter if he's not in that weight class.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> lol @ whine.... take it easy it's just a discussion.
> 
> Basing a fighters ranking because he used to be good? That would have put Frank Shamrock in the top 5 as well than had he not retired using your logic.
> 
> ...


whine whine whine...wrong wrong wrong

the difference here is that Matt Lindland and Dan Henderson lost in their divisions to fighters which are still top ranked in those divisions. Shamrock lost to Cung Le and Nick Diaz, and now retired. if he would have won those matches and stayed active, i would have him ranked somewhere around lindland. look at randy couture as a reference.

Mamed Khalidov and Sylvia havent fought for strikeforce....but unlike Lesnar they will be available after their next fight, meaning they are legitimate for a ranking discussion. i did not rank khalidov because he did not fight in strikeforce, but put him as a candidate.

yes Manhoef lost is he not top 10? he lost to top 3 Lawler and a 205 fighter.

you cannot just put rankings in an org based on overall picture. you have to look at it on who was there first. just because a fighter is better you dont rank them ahead. they have to PROVE it. Noons did not prove it YET. just because he beat "andy wang" gurgel who shouldnt even be ranked faster then the other guy, doesnt rank him higher. if that was the case Rogers should be ranked higher then Fedor for beating Arlovski faster.

i will admit i may have made a mistake regarding Shane Del Rosario because i believed he himself was considering moving to 205. if thats not the case then ok i will put him at HW. but a fight with Arlovski who is 0-3 is not good business.

recent update:

HW
1. Alistair Overeem (Champion)
2. Fabricio Werdum (beat Fedor)
3. Fedor Emelianenko (former #1)
4. Antonio Silva (former Elite XC champion)
5. Brett Rogers
6. Tim Sylvia (moving to Strikeforce after Rizzo fight)
7. Andrei Arlovski
8. Sergei Kharitonov
9. Shane Del Rosario
10. Daniel Cormier
others: Lavar Johnson, Chad Griggs, Lashley, Ray Sefo

LHW
1. Rafael "Feijao" (C)
2. King Mo(former champ)
3. Mousasi (former champ)
4. Babalu (former champ)
5. Dan Henderson (former UFC and Pride champion)
6. Roger Gracie
7. Mike Kyle
8. Soko (returning to Strikeforce)
9. Abongo
10. Randleman
others: Antwain Britt, Aaron Rosa

MW
1. Jacare (C, adcc champ)
2. Tim Kennedy
3. Robbie Lawler
4. Matt Lindland
5. Jason Miller
6. Luke Rockhold
7. Karl Amoussou
8. Trevor Prangley
9.Joey Villasenor
10. Benji Radach
others: Cung Le (movies), Khalidov/Santiago/Manhoef/Misaki/Nakamura (fight mostly in Japan)

WW
1. Nick Diaz (c)
2. Joe Riggs
3. Jesse Taylor
4. Evangelista Cyborg
5. Paul Daley 
6. Scott Smith (dropping to 170)
7. Siyar (dropping to 170)
8. Tyron Woodley
9. Roger Bowling
10. Andre Galvao
others: Tarrec Saffiedine, Paul Bradley, Nathan Coy

LW
1. Melendez (c)
2. Thomson (former champion)
3. JZ Calvan
4. Beerbohm
5. Shaolin
6. Billy Evangelista
7. Noons
8. Mike Aina
9. Jorge Gurgel
10. Justin Wilcox
others: Pat Healy, Zaromskis (possible drop to 155) 
Aoki/Kawajiri (in DREAM currently)


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> whine whine whine...wrong wrong wrong


^^ quite the mature debater are we?



UFC86 said:


> the difference here is that Matt Lindland and Dan Henderson lost in their divisions to fighters which are still top ranked in those divisions.


Dan Henderson has not won a single at LHW since 2007. Period. He's not top 5. You've got to win a fight in that division to get that kind of ranking.

You are using favortism with this ranking.




UFC86 said:


> Mamed Khalidov and Sylvia havent fought for strikeforce....but unlike Lesnar they will be available after their next fight, meaning they are legitimate for a ranking discussion


You post rankings for an organization with a good handfull of fighters that aren't even signed or have ever competed in that specific organization and you call that legitamate?




UFC86 said:


> yes Manhoef lost is he not top 10? he lost to top 3 Lawler and a 205 fighter.


According to your list no. You have Benji Radach as # 10 with Melivn below him.



UFC86 said:


> you cannot just put rankings in an org based on overall picture. you have to look at it on who was there first


wow, this is inaccurate on so many levels.



UFC86 said:


> just because a fighter is better you dont rank them ahead. they have to PROVE it


.

I agree



UFC86 said:


> Noons did not prove it YET.


Yes he has. He finishes 80 % of his fights. and he's fought tougher competition as well as veterans.

He knocked Gurgel out. Evangelista fought Gurgel to a decision. K.J. has also held and defended a world title in mma. Evangelista has not.

Evangelista has had a carreer of beating up on unproven fighters who nobody has ever heard of or will see again.






UFC86 said:


> just because he beat "andy wang" gurgel who shouldnt even be ranked faster then the other guy, doesnt rank him higher.


I agree, it's a comparasion of what they're both capable of against a common opponent period. And I'd give the striking edge to K.J. Noons over Billy Evangelista.




UFC86 said:


> if that was the case Rogers should be ranked higher then Fedor for beating Arlovski faster.


No because Fedor has defeated Rogers. And he's defeated way tougher competition than Rogers anyway.



UFC86 said:


> i will admit i may have made a mistake regarding Shane Del Rosario because i believed he himself was considering moving to 205.


good move to investigate a rumor to certify the legitimacy of it if you are posting a thread about rankings.



UFC86 said:


> if thats not the case then ok i will put him at HW. but a fight with Arlovski who is 0-3 is not good business.


A fight with Arlovski is perfect for him. 

You yourself have Andre Arlovski listed at #7 that's a top 10 opponent for an up and comer like Shane...

and lol @ Roger Gracie ranked above Mike Kyle, Antwain Britt, or Aaron Rosa..... Explain exactly why.

According to you a fighter has to "prove" that he's better. 

Roger Gracie only has 3 professional MMA fights the first of which was in 2006. That reeks inconsistancy. If his last name wasn't "Gracie" nobody would know who he was


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> You post rankings for an organization with a good handfull of fighters that aren't even signed or have ever competed in that specific organization and you call that legitamate?
> 
> According to your list no. You have Benji Radach as # 10 with Melivn below him.
> 
> ...


yes some fighters did not compete for the org nor signed yet, but theyre not ranked in the top 10. the only fighter who has that privilige is tim sylvia because hes a former ufc champion. an example would be Manhoef who rather fights in Japan, thats why hes not ranked. otherwise he would be above radach of course. 

yes KJ Noons is an eliteXC champion and thats the ONLY reason why im considering putting him way higher. beating Jorge Gurgel is not a reason. if that was Rogers would be ranked above Fedor. i want to give Noons another fight at LW before i jump him up in the rankings. you realize hes fighting at WW next?

where do you rank Roger Gracie? he won ADCC multiple times, he beat Kondo and Randleman. thats already more then Kyle, Britt and Rosa done. if you consider Kyle's win over Feijao, i will guarantee you Feijao beats him 9/10 now. and we will see it in the next fight.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> yes some fighters did not compete for the org nor signed yet, but theyre not ranked in the top 10


Good that's the way it should be. They shouldn't be mentioned at all unless they're competing or signed

That is a STRIKEFORCE rankings list.




UFC86 said:


> the only fighter who has that privilige is tim sylvia because hes a former ufc champion


Tim Syliva does not and has never fought for Strikeforce



UFC86 said:


> an example would be Manhoef who rather fights in Japan, thats why hes not ranked. otherwise he would be above radach of course.


He needs 2 solid wins before a top 10 ranking is talked about. Even than he'd be 2-2 in his last 4.



UFC86 said:


> yes KJ Noons is an eliteXC champion and thats the ONLY reason why im considering putting him way higher.


He knocked out Yves Edwards for that title. Yves Edwards is tougher than any fighter that Evangelista has ever faced.




UFC86 said:


> beating Jorge Gurgel is not a reason. if that was Rogers would be ranked above Fedor.


No because Fedor has fought much tougher competition than Rogers had. You have to look at the calibur of opponents here..




UFC86 said:


> i want to give Noons another fight at LW before i jump him up in the rankings. you realize hes fighting at WW next?


Yes he's gonna lose to Diaz next.



UFC86 said:


> where do you rank Roger Gracie? he won ADCC multiple times


It doesn't matter if he ran for president, that has nothing to do with MMA rankings. You are using favortism. 3-0 top ten?? No way.




UFC86 said:


> he beat Kondo and Randleman


Kevin Randalman?? lol he's lost 8 of his last 10. 

Really Kevin Randalman sucks...

Kondo is semi decent, but nothing more than that. when was the last time Kondo was relevant in mma??... dude got freakin knocked out by Phil Baroni..

Kondo was good in 1996... but he's not the kind of victory that boosts your rank...




UFC86 said:


> thats already more then Kyle, Britt and Rosa done. if you consider Kyle's win over Feijao,


Well let's go ahead and break that down...

*Roger Gracie 3-0
Fights less than once a year
3 submissions
notobale victories 
Kondo, Randalman*

*Mike Kyle 17-7
fought 4 times in 2010
11 Knockouts, 3 submissions
notable victories
James Irvin, Rafael Feijao, Ron "Abongo" Humphrey
Sidenote........holds knockout victory over current LHW champion*

*Antwain Britt
11-4
fights 4 times a yaer
9 knockouts
notable victories 
Carmello Marrero, Scott Lighty
side note.... Britt fought 6 times in 2009 (twice the number of Roger Gracies total professional record)*

*Aaron Rosa
14-3
Fights 2 to 3 times a year
6 knockouts 3 submissions
notable victories
unknown fighters with solid records*




UFC86 said:


> i will guarantee you Feijao beats him 9/10 now. and we will see it in the next fight.


Of course he will. I think Rafael Feijao can stop any LHW in STRIKEFORCE... the only fight that would worry me would be against Gegard Mousasi.

But back to Kyles victory over Feijao it's in the books. So you have to count it. Not to mention that he's 7-1-1 his last 9.... that's 3 times more fights than Roger Gracie has had in his entire carreer.

I would even put Abongo ahead of him... The only fighter on that list I would put him ahead of is Randalman.

I would also put MIke Whitehead over Roger Gracie.
*
27-7
6 KOs
13 submissions
Fights 2 to 3 times a year
Notable victories
Kevin Randalman, Ben Rothwell, Krystof Sozinski, *


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Good that's the way it should be. They shouldn't be mentioned at all unless they're competing or signed
> 
> That is a STRIKEFORCE rankings list.
> 
> ...


Pretty much everything you said is right, except that Henderson won a LHW fight in 2009 against Rich Franklin.

http://93.ufc.com/

People constantly want to rank fighters who might fight for Strikeforce someday. It bugs me too. For instance Paul Daley, who is rumored to have signed with strikeforce, but still has to fight for Shark Fights, before he can do anything.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Pretty much everything you said is right, except that Henderson won a LHW fight in 2009 against Rich Franklin.
> 
> http://93.ufc.com/
> 
> People constantly want to rank fighters who might fight for Strikeforce someday. It bugs me too. For instance Paul Daley, who is rumored to have signed with strikeforce, but still has to fight for Shark Fights, before he can do anything.


No he didn't, that fight was a contested catchweight of 195 lbs.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> No he didn't, that fight was a contested catchweight of 195 lbs.


Then why would the UFC on that website list it as a LHW fight, with both fighters weighing in at 205. When you go to the website click on fight card. The evidence is right there.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Then why would the UFC on that website list it as a LHW fight, with both fighters weighing in at 205. When you go to the website click on fight card. The evidence is right there.




You know what you're right.

Franklin fought Wanderlei Silva at 195 
and he fought Belfort at 195...

He fought Henderson at 205. My mistake.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Well let's go ahead and break that down...
> 
> *Roger Gracie 3-0
> Fights less than once a year
> ...


you do realize Mike Kyle has only 2 fights at LHW in strikeforce (very similar to Roger Gracie) since he dropped from HW? a win over Abongo (1-1 at LHW) and Rafael Feijao BEFORE he won any big fights (like the title fight). so basically you have a division full of newbies that though include Roger Gracie, also include Mike Kyle, Abongo, Dan Henderson making his debut, Soko who fought once for SF, Babalu who fought twice against 205 fighters (Lawler is 185), Britt who is 1-1, Rosa who has more losses then wins as of late, whitehead who is 1-1 in SF and you rank him from jail, and Mousasi and King Mo are both 2-1.....you must really dislike Roger Gracie for a reason or another.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

recent update:

HW
1. Alistair Overeem (Champion)
2. Fabricio Werdum (beat Fedor)
3. Fedor Emelianenko (former #1)
4. Antonio Silva (former Elite XC champion)
5. Brett Rogers
6. Tim Sylvia (moving to Strikeforce after Rizzo fight)
7. Andrei Arlovski
8. Sergei Kharitonov
9. Shane Del Rosario
10. Daniel Cormier
others: Lavar Johnson, Chad Griggs, Lashley, Ray Sefo

LHW
1. Rafael "Feijao" (C)
2. King Mo(former champ)
3. Mousasi (former champ)
4. Babalu (former champ)
5. Dan Henderson (former UFC and Pride champion)
6. Roger Gracie
7. Mike Kyle
8. Soko (returning to Strikeforce)
9. Abongo
10. Randleman
others: Antwain Britt, Aaron Rosa

MW
1. Jacare (C, adcc champ)
2. Tim Kennedy
3. Robbie Lawler
4. Matt Lindland
5. Jason Miller
6. Luke Rockhold
7. Karl Amoussou
8. Trevor Prangley
9.Joey Villasenor
10. Benji Radach
others: Cung Le (movies), Khalidov/Santiago/Manhoef/Misaki/Nakamura (fight mostly in Japan)

WW
1. Nick Diaz (c)
2. Joe Riggs
3. Jesse Taylor
4. Evangelista Cyborg
5. Paul Daley 
6. Scott Smith (dropping to 170)
7. Siyar (dropping to 170)
8. Tyron Woodley
9. Roger Bowling
10. Andre Galvao
others: Tarrec Saffiedine, Paul Bradley, Nathan Coy

LW
1. Melendez (c)
2. Thomson (former champion)
3. KJ Noons (former Elite XC champion)
4. JZ Calvan
5. Beerbohm
6. Vitor Ribeiro
7. Billy Evangelista
8. Mike Aina
9. Jorge Gurgel
10. Justin Wilcox
others: Pat Healy, Zaromskis (possible drop to 155) 
Aoki/Kawajiri (in DREAM currently)


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> you do realize Mike Kyle has only 2 fights at LHW in strikeforce (very similar to Roger Gracie) since he dropped from HW? a win over Abongo (1-1 at LHW) and Rafael Feijao BEFORE he won any big fights (like the title fight). so basically you have a division full of newbies that though include Roger Gracie, also include Mike Kyle, Abongo, Dan Henderson making his debut, Soko who fought once for SF, Babalu who fought twice against 205 fighters (Lawler is 185), Britt who is 1-1, Rosa who has more losses then wins as of late, whitehead who is 1-1 in SF and you rank him from jail, and Mousasi and King Mo are both 2-1.....you must really dislike Roger Gracie for a reason or another.


You realize you arguing the same argument I am using against you in the reason why Belfort doesn't deserve a title shot right here. You are saying that people don't have enough wins in strikeforce, yet you say that Belfort deserves a title shot without any wins at MW for the UFC.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> You realize you arguing the same argument I am using against you in the reason why Belfort doesn't deserve a title shot right here. You are saying that people don't have enough wins in strikeforce, yet you say that Belfort deserves a title shot without any wins at MW for the UFC.


not at all im not dismissing anything. on the contrary, youre dismissing Roger Gracie for having only 3 MMA fights, but im showing you most fighters other then the top 3 do not have much fights to brag about either. most of them either fought in a higher weightclass or against nobodies. my opinion was that Gracie's 2 wins are more impressive then most others in SF, and his BJJ resume should carry him to the top.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> you do realize Mike Kyle has only 2 fights at LHW in strikeforce (very similar to Roger Gracie) since he dropped from HW? a win over Abongo (1-1 at LHW) and Rafael Feijao BEFORE he won any big fights (like the title fight). so basically you have a division full of newbies that though include Roger Gracie, also include Mike Kyle, Abongo, Dan Henderson making his debut, Soko who fought once for SF, Babalu who fought twice against 205 fighters (Lawler is 185), Britt who is 1-1, Rosa who has more losses then wins as of late, whitehead who is 1-1 in SF and you rank him from jail, and Mousasi and King Mo are both 2-1.....you must really dislike Roger Gracie for a reason or another.


lol I don't dislike Roger Gracie. But what you're saying makes no sense he beat Feijao a year ago. Period. Whether Feijao had defeated Mo yet or not that is still a fresh victory over a guy who just made a successful title run, and you have to count that.

I don't use like or dislike when ranking fighters on my list. I add what their record is, who've they've beaten, how many fights they finsih, how long their winning streak is and even how they performed in the fights that they lost. 

Everyone knew that Abongo was a hot prospect running through his opponents. The only guy who had previously defeated Humphry was Brett Rogers before Kyle got a hold of him.

I am asking you what would prompt you to rank a fighter who steps into the cage less than once a year and only has 3 proffessional fights above active fighters with more victories and experience.

Would you really rank Roger Gracie over fighters like Mike Whitehead?

Furthermore you give Billy Evangelista a higher ranking over Noons because Evangelista has been in STRIKEFORCE longer...


Yet you refuse to apply that logic to Roger Gracie who only has 1 fight with STRIKEFORCE....

If you are going to explain the method of ranking one fighter just to ignore the same method while ranking another it just looks like favortism.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> lol I don't dislike Roger Gracie. But what you're saying makes no sense he beat Feijao a year ago. Period. Whether Feijao had defeated Mo yet or not that is still a fresh victory over a guy who just made a successful title run, and you have to count that.
> 
> I don't use like or dislike when ranking fighters on my list. I add what their record is, who've they've beaten, how many fights they finsih, how long their winning streak is and even how they performed in the fights that they lost.
> 
> ...


what you did there is borderline trolling. would i rank him above mike whitehead? hes sitting in jail! moreso Roger Gracie submitted all 3 of his opponents, including Randleman who whitehead took to decision. 

my point about Feijao is that he was not experienced at the highest level and might drop a decision. now that hes improved and more experienced i believe he is a league above mike kyle. you call abongo a "hot prospect running through his opponents" yet roger gracie does not qualify in that category. pure trolling.

also i believe roger gracie will beat babalu and henderson in a match, and maybe king mo at this time, but is unproven and out of respect im ranking them higher.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> what you did there is borderline trolling. would i rank him above mike whitehead? hes sitting in jail! moreso Roger Gracie submitted all 3 of his opponents, including Randleman who whitehead took to decision.


I love that when people disagree with you there are a troll. Mike Whitehead is not currently in jail. He was charged with a crime, that might be bunk for all we know. Being under investigation doesn't prohibit a fighter from gaining a license in any state. 



UFC86 said:


> not at all im not dismissing anything. on the contrary, youre dismissing Roger Gracie for having only 3 MMA fights, but im showing you most fighters other then the top 3 do not have much fights to brag about either. most of them either fought in a higher weightclass or against nobodies. my opinion was that Gracie's 2 wins are more impressive then most others in SF, and his BJJ resume should carry him to the top.


"much fight to brag about"? Speak english do you yoda? Gracies wins would be very impressive if he had beaten Randleman or Kondo in the 90's. In 2010, it doesn't mean much. Kyle's win over Feijao puts him above Gracie on that fight alone.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> "much fight to brag about"? Speak english do you yoda? Gracies wins would be very impressive if he had beaten Randleman or Kondo in the 90's. In 2010, it doesn't mean much. *Kyle's win over Feijao puts him above Gracie on that fight alone*.


how about all the other fighters/fights in the top 10?

kyle gets a fluke win scott smith/ ryo chonan vs anderson silva style and suddenly he should be ranked at the top


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> what you did there is borderline trolling. would i rank him above mike whitehead? hes sitting in jail! moreso Roger Gracie submitted all 3 of his opponents, including Randleman who whitehead took to decision.


Ok, now this is the second time you've accused a member of trolling due to the fact that they disagreed with your opinion.

So let me spell something out for you. Just because you don't agree with somebody on this board doesn't give you the right to insult them with insinuations. Another insult to a member and trust I will infract you.. Take under consideration the fact that maybe you could be wrong and maybe the other person isn't.

Here....I'll give you an example.....

Mike Whitehead is not in jail..... He was Griggs's cornerman when Chad fought Bobby Lashely on this last Strikeforce card in Houston. So before you get closed minded and begin insulting..... you need to stop and investigate what you are insinuating. 

Also Mike Whitehead whether you like it or not has a better resume than Roger Gracie.

For starters you continue to list Kevin Randalman as a notable victory.

Kevin Randalman is a horrible MMA fighter and is nowhere near relevant. You do understand that Kevin Randalman has lost 8 of his last 10 fights? ?

Do you realize that Kevin Randalman has only won 2 fights since 2003?

But if you want to use him as a reference in debate than let's do that...

Mike Whitehead has also defeated Kevin Randalman. He's also defeated active UFC fighters Ben Rothwell, and Krystof Sozinski. 

He's also submitted 13 opponents and knocked out 6. 
He was undefeated in the IFL.
Hes fought in W.E.C., STRIKEFORCE, Affliction, The IFL, and many more organizations.... he's just got so much more professional experience than Roger Gracie. 

Roger Gracie has only had three proffessional fights in 4 years. He does not belong on a top 10 list at all. 

Here's the funniest part... you argued earlier that just because K.J. Noons finished Gurgel and Evangelista wasn't able to do so meant nothing in regards to rankings... Now you are saying that Gracie finsihed Randalman and Whitehead didn't as another reason why Gracie should be ranked higher?

You are using a flawed logic in the way you rank your fighters. No problem... Do what you have to on your favorites list, but don't come to this forum disrespecting members and shoving lists that are inaccurate in our faces and insulting us when we dont' agree with you.





UFC86 said:


> my point about Feijao is that he was not experienced at the highest level and might drop a decision. now that hes improved and more experienced i believe he is a league above mike kyle. you call abongo a "hot prospect running through his opponents" yet roger gracie does not qualify in that category. pure trolling.


He was 3 times more experienced than your guy when he went in the Kyle fight... And he didn't drop decision. He got knocked out.

Roger Gracie is not a hot prospect running through opponents.. he doesn't really fight much. 

3 fights in 4 years doesn't make you a hot prospect. It makes you a part time mma fighter.

He had 1 fight in 2006
He didn't fight in 2007 at all
He had 1 fight in 2008
He didn't fight in 2009 at all
He's had 1 fight in 2010

When Mike Kyle fought Abongo Humprey, Humphrey was 7-1 with 7 wins by stoppage in the first round. That is more than twice the victories than Roger Gracie has by stoppage in round 1.

So yes Abongo Humphrey qualified as a hot prospect.



UFC86 said:


> also i believe roger gracie will beat babalu and henderson in a match, and maybe king mo at this time, but is unproven and out of respect im ranking them higher.


What has Roger Gracie done for you to say he'd defeat Dan Henderson and Babalu?? 

Wow. You do understand that in the last 3 years Babalu, Mo, and Henderson have defeated guys like....


Robbie Lawler
Gegard Mousasi
Sokky
Mike Whitehead
Rich Franklin
Rousimar Palhares
Michael Bisbing
and Wanderlei Silva

And you think Roger Gracie is going to stroll into a cage with his part time MMA carreer and stop Babalu or Hendo? That is not a realistic claim on any level. I'd like to know exactly what prompts you to post that beleif...what reasoning are you using? 

What reasoning are you really using? We don't know if he's got good cardio, a good chin, a strong will, can he adjust?? He's never been in deep water, he's never faced a fighter on a win streak or with momentum behind them... 

Does he have K.O. power? If he's getting GNPed can he pull off a sub? Or will he turtle? Because he's never subbed anybody in mma off of his back ever. MMA BJJ is different than regular BJJ because you are being attacked with strikes it changes alot when it comes to transitioning. Can he cut the cage off against a good striker? How powerful are his shots against a fighter with good TDD? How good is his TDD? The questions can go on and on because he's unproven in MMA at this point. 

He needs more wins against legit competition. He could be a great fighter... or he could turn out to be a bust. The only way to really know is to test him against stiff competition. Until than... the name Gracie doesn't garner him an automatic #7 ranking in the top ten. Not when you got guys that have much better mma credentials than he does.

And BTW .....Gracies only 3 opponents have lost by submission a combination of......16 times. That's a fact.





rockybalboa25 said:


> Gracies wins would be very impressive if he had beaten Randleman or Kondo in the 90's. In 2010, it doesn't mean much. Kyle's win over Feijao puts him above Gracie on that fight alone.


I agree.

Kyle and Whitehead are above Roger Gracie in rankings.... and by above I'm talkin 3 to 4 slots easy.



UFC86 said:


> how about all the other fighters/fights in the top 10?
> kyle gets a fluke win scott smith/ ryo chonan vs anderson silva style and suddenly he should be ranked at the top


Fluke win? He trained and won that fight. If Feijao got caught, it is Feijaos fault. I'm a Feijao fan and I have been for a years now.... but I have to admit that Kyle won that fight.

A victory garners a ranking. Period. 

You can not take that ranking away from Mike Kyle just because you don't think that he's a good fighter. 

He finished Feijao the current champion with strikes in 2009. And now he just beat Abongo and Tony Lopez back to back... and Tony Lopez is a tough fighter. You are ranking Gracie above Mike Kyle using Randalman and Kondo as an examle? That is just a joke.

Bottem line is that Kyle and Whitehead are above Roger Gracie in the LHW roster.

I'd put Britt past him as well.

Roger Gracie just does not have enough MMA fights under his belt to have a top 10 ranking at this time.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Ok, now this is the second time you've accused a member of trolling due to the fact that they disagreed with your opinion.
> 
> Mike Whitehead is not in jail.....
> 
> ...


when someone makes absolutely rediculous claims i tend to call them trolls. now if you look at a thread i made called "fire joe silva" i was called a troll numerous times, even though no trolling was done on my part.

i dont like to predict events before they happen, but mike whitehead from what i read was charged with two different serious crimes. now he may not be in jail yet, but he is in so much trouble over his head he cannot be considered a serious threat to anyone. also, i do not wish mike whitehead any problems with the law, i have no dislike for him whatsoever

calling randleman a horrible fighter is rediculous because he was a former ufc champion and arguably beat bas rutten. if you call randleman a bad fighter then overeem was a bad fighter in pride (he was not bad, just not a top beater). look at who he lost to: Gracie, Nedkov (ufc prospect), whitehead (that was surprising, but whitehead is big at 205), shogun, nakamura, cro cop, waterman (at hw), fedor, Sakuraba, Rampage, Liddell, Couture and look at who he beat as well (including cro cop). the only bad loss was whitehead and Waterman @HW

why do i think roger gracie would beat babalu and henderson? first, they should be ranked above him for sure no doubt. but i believe bjj is the most effective martial art in the world, where you can beat fighters despite being 1 dimensional (Werdum vs Fedor, Royce Gracie in early UFC, Anderson vs Sonnen not calling spider 1d, Nog vs Cro Cop etc). Jacare showed it by becoming the MW champion. he would beat anybody in the mw division in SF, even though his striking is improving. i believe roger gracie will beat king mo by the fact that the fight will go to the ground and gracie will submit him. 

now im not saying that because Roger beat Randleman more convincing then whitehead he should be ahead. the point is randleman was whitehead's best win (Rothwell and Sos are not great fighters) and i dont see why whitehead should be ranked above him. yes he got more experience, but how much at 205? how many fights does abongo have at 205? Mousasi? they all have about 1-3 fights at that weightclass. its like when Carwin beat Gonzaga, Lesnar said he considers him 1-0 because he only beat 1 legitimate opponent.

regarding Kyle beating Feijao. how high was Feijao ranked when he fought Kyle? he was making his strikeforce debut and had 3 wins in elitexc against guys who dont even fight for any known org. so now because feijao beat king mo it bumps all the other guys feijao fought as well? rankings have to be CURRENT. if kyle beats feijao right now i would rank him #1.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> when someone makes absolutely rediculous claims i tend to call them trolls. now if you look at a thread i made called "fire joe silva" i was called a troll numerous times, even though no trolling was done on my part.
> 
> i dont like to predict events before they happen, but mike whitehead from what i read was charged with two different serious crimes. now he may not be in jail yet, but he is in so much trouble over his head he cannot be considered a serious threat to anyone. also, i do not wish mike whitehead any problems with the law, i have no dislike for him whatsoever
> 
> ...



Randleman is a horrible fighter. Here's the problem: Randleman came into mma when it was style vs style. His wrestling helped him win that early UFC title. However he did not evolve. He stayed exactly the same, not learning anything new, which is why he is no longer competitive. Imagine if Randy Couture never developed any more skills after UFC 13. He would be in the same position as Randleman. 

As to your assertion that BJJ is the most amazing fighting style. You're right it is a great style. However knowing one style doesn't cut it anymore. There several dominant fighters who's BJJ is suspect: Lesnar, Velasquez, Evans, Jackson, Griffin, Henderson, Fitch, Koscheck, Hardy, Edgar, Alvarez, and Maynard for example. Also we've seen what happens to guys who are amazing at BJJ, but don't have good striking, ie Werdum vs Dos Santos, Maia vs Marquardt, and both Gracies vs Hughes. Having only one style ensures that you will not be successful in mma. Also Babalu would destroy Gracie inside of one round. Hendo might take two rounds to Bisping Gracie.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Randleman is a horrible fighter. Here's the problem: Randleman came into mma when it was style vs style. His wrestling helped him win that early UFC title. However he did not evolve. He stayed exactly the same, not learning anything new, which is why he is no longer competitive. Imagine if Randy Couture never developed any more skills after UFC 13. He would be in the same position as Randleman.
> 
> As to your assertion that BJJ is the most amazing fighting style. You're right it is a great style. However knowing one style doesn't cut it anymore. There several dominant fighters who's BJJ is suspect: Lesnar, Velasquez, Evans, Jackson, Griffin, Henderson, Fitch, Koscheck, Hardy, Edgar, Alvarez, and Maynard for example. Also we've seen what happens to guys who are amazing at BJJ, but don't have good striking, ie Werdum vs Dos Santos, Maia vs Marquardt, and both Gracies vs Hughes. Having only one style ensures that you will not be successful in mma. Also Babalu would destroy Gracie inside of one round. Hendo might take two rounds to Bisping Gracie.


i agree that randleman was 1d, but he also had some striking in him. he did knock out cro cop. still you did not prove Randleman was "horrible". he was good enough to win a ufc championship.

all the fighters you listed except hardy and alvarez are wrestlers. Griffin (if you mean forrest) is a BJJ specialist. now i dont even consider hardy a great fighter or a top 10. now watch Lesnar-Mir 1, Koscheck-Diego tuf fight, Maynard-Diaz (both fights), Henderson-Anderson, Alvarez-Aoki etc, as well as tell me what great BJJ fighters did Cain, Fitch, Evans and Edgar fight (yes i know edgar beat BJ twice, but edgar is one of the best p4p and i even made a thread about him). Fitch-Paulo Thiago was a close fight as well.

regarding Babalu vs Roger Gracie, Babalu's BJJ might neutralize somewhat Gracie's bjj. i think it might be an even fight if roger stays 1d and doesnt improve his striking enough. henderson might try to keep it striking but watch Sylvia vs Nogueira. if roger gets it to the ground it would be over.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> i agree that randleman was 1d, but he also had some striking in him. he did knock out cro cop. still you did not prove Randleman was "horrible". he was good enough to win a ufc championship.


That was in 1999 dude. MMA was nowhere, abslolutly nowhere near the compeditive level it is today. 

I'm being completley honest when I say this to you man.... Kevin Randalman is not UFC championship material with this breed of fighters..

Listen... when you lose 8 of your last 10 professional fights you are not competing at an elite level. You are not even cometing at a midtier level. 

Kevin Randalman is just a name. And everybody that he's fighting is eating him alive. 

[


UFC86 said:


> . Griffin (if you mean forrest) is a BJJ specialist





UFC86 said:


> as well as tell me what great BJJ fighters did Cain, Fitch, Evans and Edgar fight


You just called Forrest a BJJ specialist and Rashad beat him down and knocked him out from inside his guard...

Fitch beat Paulo Thiago 

Frankie defeated B.J. Penn twice.
and he also defeated Hermes Franca who is a BJJ black belt as well.

Rashad also defeated Thiago Silva who is a BJJ black belt. And he used his wrestling to do it.
Cain Velasquez defeated Minotaro Noguiera.




UFC86 said:


> (yes i know edgar beat BJ twice, but edgar is one of the best p4p and i even made a thread about him)


That's a complete excuse because before those fights B.J. Penn was ranked way higher than Frankie Edgar P4P



UFC86 said:


> regarding Babalu vs Roger Gracie, Babalu's BJJ might neutralize somewhat Gracie's bjj. i think it might be an even fight if roger stays 1d and doesnt improve his striking enough.


Do you know how good Babalus BJJ is? He has 18 wins by submission. I would pick his MMA BJJ and experience over Roger Gracie any day of the week. 

And his kickboxing is crisp, he sits down on his punches. He just outclassed Robbie Lawler in a striking match which is pretty good. He's still evovling as well...

But do to the fact that Babalu has been Striking in MMA and has been in the cage with world class strikers in their prime I'd give the edge to Babalu.

You need to take under consideration once again that Babalu is proven.. he has experience.

He's submitted....

Chael Sonnen
Shogun
Trevor Prangley
Cyril Diabate
and Sokodjou

He's also defeated...

Robbie Lawler
Mike Whitehead
and 
Jeremy Horn 

He fought Fedor to a decision and he's 6-1 in his last 7.

Sobral is a Vet. Roger Gracie is a part time fighter with only 3 professional bouts.

Babalu would end that fight damn near anyway he wanted to.




UFC86 said:


> henderson might try to keep it striking but watch Sylvia vs Nogueira. if roger gets it to the ground it would be over.


How do you know this? We don't even know if Roger Gracie has an explosive shot. 

we don't know if Gracie can even complete a double or single against a guy like Hendo.

We dont' know if he can move his head quick enough to avoid Hendersons power...

You have to get these fighters down they aren't just gonna jump guard or go straight to the floor with you. 

we don't know anything about Roger Gracie except that he has almost zero MMA experienece..... and that is a big strike against him when you talk about him defeating the likes of Babalu and Dan Henderson.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> That was in 1999 dude. MMA was nowhere, abslolutly nowhere near the compeditive level it is today.
> 
> I'm being completley honest when I say this to you man.... Kevin Randalman is not UFC championship material with this breed of fighters..
> 
> ...


i pretty much agree with this, especially the last part. i just feel like the best BJJ fighter in the world can beat any other fighter in the world (like early Royce, werdum vs Fedor) but as i said due to the fact that Babalu would eliminate the effectiveness of Roger Gracie's BJJ, he should win it overall. i hope he wont though because Roger is a prospect and Babalu is not. but yes Roger is pretty much unproven (like most fighters @205 in strikeforce). actually when i think about Whitehead i think about a bust (when he was favorite to win tuf, and did horrible ever since) while gracie was speculated as a possible opponent for fedor (also unproven). bottom line i agree way too early to rank Roger Gracie.

regarding BJJ vs other styles, Rashad vs Thiago Silva and Forrest, Edgar vs Penn, Paulo Thiago vs Fitch most come to mind. but also remember that Rashad, Edgar and Fitch are top 3 MMA fighters in the world in their weight, and they also study BJJ and have black belts. Edgar vs Penn was not spent too long on the ground, was nothing like Royce's early matches. Paulo Thiago vs Fitch was competitive.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> i agree that randleman was 1d, but he also had some striking in him. he did knock out cro cop. still you did not prove Randleman was "horrible". he was good enough to win a ufc championship.


Maurice Smith was a UFC champion. Do you think he would be competitive in modern mma.




UFC86 said:


> all the fighters you listed except hardy and alvarez are wrestlers.


So you admit wrestler is a superior form of Grappling?



UFC86 said:


> Griffin (if you mean forrest) is a BJJ specialist. now i dont even consider hardy a great fighter or a top 10.


Forrest Griffin is a BJJ specialist, now you're just messing with me. As far as Hardy is concerned: mmaweekly has him ranked 10. Sherdog has him 4. It's a good thing rankings are based are reality and not whatever you think.



UFC86 said:


> now watch Lesnar-Mir 1


Did you see the second fight?



UFC86 said:


> Koscheck-Diego tuf fight


You saw that Koscheck actually has a win over Sanchez, while all Diego has is an exhibition win.



UFC86 said:


> Maynard-Diaz (both fights)


see above



UFC86 said:


> as well as tell me what great BJJ fighters did Cain, Fitch, Evans and Edgar fight (yes i know edgar beat BJ twice, but edgar is one of the best p4p and i even made a thread about him). Fitch-Paulo Thiago was a close fight as well.


Well Velasquez beat one of the all time great BJJ practitioners in Nogueira. Fitch beat 3 BJJ black belts: Sanchez, Carneiro, and Thiago (a win is a win). Edgar beat BJ twice, doesn't matter if he's great that's kind of the point that you don't have to be great at BJJ to be great. He also beat blackbelts Bocek and Franca. Evans beat blackbelt Thiago Silva. So basically you don't know what you're talking about. 



UFC86 said:


> regarding Babalu vs Roger Gracie, Babalu's BJJ might neutralize somewhat Gracie's bjj. i think it might be an even fight if roger stays 1d and doesnt improve his striking enough. henderson might try to keep it striking but watch Sylvia vs Nogueira. if roger gets it to the ground it would be over.


Gracie has showed us nothing to suggest that he is capable of taking down Babalu or Henderson. Come on seriously this thread is getting ridiculous with some of the statements you are making. You can't get out of a whole by digging, just stop with the ridiculousness already.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> So you admit wrestler is a superior form of Grappling?
> 
> You saw that Koscheck actually has a win over Sanchez, while all Diego has is an exhibition win.
> 
> Well Velasquez beat one of the all time great BJJ practitioners in Nogueira. Fitch beat 3 BJJ black belts: Sanchez, Carneiro, and Thiago (a win is a win). Edgar beat BJ twice, doesn't matter if he's great that's kind of the point that you don't have to be great at BJJ to be great. He also beat blackbelts Bocek and Franca. Evans beat blackbelt Thiago Silva. So basically you don't know what you're talking about.


youre completely missing the point...
you listed fighters that do great without having bjj as their major background. im stating that almost all guys you listed come from wrestling rather then striking such as muay thai boxing karate kickboxing etc.... wrestling like bjj is another form of grappling.

the rematch between Lesnar and Mir proved that size matters. remember how mir started bulking up?
the rematch between koscheck and diego might as well be declared a no contest. check the stats!
my point about maynard and diaz is that BOTH fights could arguably be given to Diaz, even though Maynard is ranked 3rd while Diaz is not top 10. just a bad matchup for maynard because BJJ>Wrestling.

Cain vs Nog did not go to the ground. Roan Carneiro probably got his black belt in some cheap store, as he was submitted both by fitch and Burns. yes fitch beat paulo thiago and diego, but dont forget he is savvy on the ground with his bjj himself. Edgar handles BJJ well, because he probably is proficient in BJJ as well. watch his fight with Tyson Griffin where he was defending submissions all the time. watch paulo filho vs chael sonnen. in the first fight filho submits sonnen. in the second sonnen uses his wrestling to take filho down and immediately goes up. scoring easy points.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Let's start by pointing out all the things you said that aren't wrong.



UFC86 said:


> the rematch between Lesnar and Mir proved that size matters. remember how mir started bulking up?


Brock won with his wrestling. wrestling>BJJ



UFC86 said:


> the rematch between koscheck and diego might as well be declared a no contest. check the stats!


What stats Koscheck dominated the entire fight. Again you're just making stuff up.



UFC86 said:


> my point about maynard and diaz is that BOTH fights could arguably be given to Diaz, even though Maynard is ranked 3rd while Diaz is not top 10. just a bad matchup for maynard because BJJ>Wrestling.


Yeah Maynard won, so in that case Wresling>BJJ. You're obviously biased. Another reason that Maynard is ranked, he has never lost. While Diaz has gone 3-3 in his last 6. He lost Maynard, Stevenson, and Guida.



UFC86 said:


> Cain vs Nog did not go to the ground. Roan Carneiro probably got his black belt in some cheap store, as he was submitted both by fitch and Burns.


Carneiro got his black belt from some bum, named Nogueira. Have you heard of him? Do some research.



UFC86 said:


> yes fitch beat paulo thiago and diego, but dont forget he is savvy on the ground with his bjj himself.


Fitch doesn't take BJJ. He takes Guerrilla Jiu jistu. Again a little research would keep you from saying things that are simply untrue 



UFC86 said:


> Edgar handles BJJ well, because he probably is proficient in BJJ as well. watch his fight with Tyson Griffin where he was defending submissions all the time. watch paulo filho vs chael sonnen. in the first fight filho submits sonnen. in the second sonnen uses his wrestling to take filho down and immediately goes up. scoring easy points.


We all know that Sonnen has poor submission defense. He beat Filho in the second fight, it doesn't matter how.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Let
> Brock won with his wrestling. wrestling>BJJ
> 
> 
> ...


Brock is a purple belt in bjj now isnt he? when he wasnt, mir beat him.

koscheck vs diego was one of the only high profile fights that i never saw. ill tell you why. from what i heard about this fight, they were just circling each other for three rounds and not engaging what might have been the most boring fight in mma history.

maynard "won". alot of people say he lost both fights. he is a huge lightweight (much like tibau) who does ok against other wrestlers (like edgar) but cant beat diaz. interesting.

oh fitch is guerilla bjj not bjj gotcha. wait:confused02:

sonnen vs filho 2 was not a wrestling match. it was a striking match with sonnen taking filho down and getting up for cheap points. the fight spent no time on the ground whatsoever.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

recent update:

HW
1. Alistair Overeem (Champion)
2. Fabricio Werdum (beat Fedor)
3. Fedor Emelianenko (former #1)
4. Antonio Silva (former Elite XC champion)
5. Brett Rogers
6. Tim Sylvia (moving to Strikeforce after Rizzo fight)
7. Andrei Arlovski
8. Sergei Kharitonov
9. Shane Del Rosario
10. Daniel Cormier
others: Lavar Johnson, Chad Griggs, Lashley, Ray Sefo

LHW
1. Rafael "Feijao" (C)
2. King Mo(former champ)
3. Mousasi (former champ)
4. Babalu (former champ)
5. Dan Henderson (former UFC and Pride champion)
6. Roger Gracie
7. Mike Kyle
8. Soko (returning to Strikeforce)
9. Abongo
10. Randleman
others: Antwain Britt, Aaron Rosa

MW
1. Jacare (C, adcc champ)
2. Tim Kennedy
3. Robbie Lawler
4. Matt Lindland
5. Jason Miller
6. Luke Rockhold
7. Karl Amoussou
8. Trevor Prangley
9.Joey Villasenor
10. Benji Radach
others: Cung Le (movies), Khalidov/Santiago/Manhoef/Misaki/Nakamura (fight mostly in Japan)

WW
1. Nick Diaz (c)
2. Joe Riggs
3. Jesse Taylor
4. Evangelista Cyborg
5. Paul Daley 
6. Scott Smith (dropping to 170)
7. Siyar (dropping to 170)
8. Tyron Woodley
9. Roger Bowling
10. Andre Galvao
others: Tarrec Saffiedine, Paul Bradley, Nathan Coy

LW
1. Melendez (c)
2. Thomson (former champion)
3. KJ Noons (former Elite XC champion)
4. JZ Calvan
5. Beerbohm
6. Vitor Ribeiro
7. Billy Evangelista
8. Mike Aina
9. Jorge Gurgel
10. Justin Wilcox
others: Pat Healy, Zaromskis (possible drop to 155) 
Aoki/Kawajiri (in DREAM currently)

also p4p
1.Jacare 
2. Feijao
3. King Mo
4. Werdum
5. Fedor
6. Antonio Silva
7. Josh Thomson
8. Melendez
9. Nick Diaz
10. Robbie Lawler


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Is Sylvia really going there after fighting for his for a lower than second tier promotion?


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Is Sylvia really going there after fighting for his for a lower than second tier promotion?


isnt strikeforce a lower tier promotion? i dont see whats the problem. and rizzo might be ufc bound


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> isnt strikeforce a lower tier promotion? i dont see whats the problem. and rizzo might be ufc bound


Yes Strikeforce is a lower tier promotion. I doubt Rizzo, who isn't very good anymore is going to the UFC, but maybe they'll use him as a punching bag like Gilbert Yvel. I still have a problem ranking a fighter in Strikeforce that isn't sign to Strikeforce and has never fought in the promotion.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Yes Strikeforce is a lower tier promotion. I doubt Rizzo, who isn't very good anymore is going to the UFC, but maybe they'll use him as a punching bag like Gilbert Yvel. I still have a problem ranking a fighter in Strikeforce that isn't sign to Strikeforce and has never fought in the promotion.


in the last 3 years rizzo beat eilers, monson (twice), goodrige and ken shamrock, and lost to barnett on roids and yvel who got a ufc contract beating rizzo. none of them are A level fighters, but nonetheless the ufc brought alot of legends back (mark coleman, caol uno, Vitor Belfort). he left the ufc on a 2 fight winning streak beating ricco rodriguez.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah but beating down an old Ken Shamrock who just came off of a suspension from roids isn't saying much!


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah but beating down an old Ken Shamrock who just came off of a suspension from roids isn't saying much!


the bottom line he is still packing wins against some competition, he left the ufc on a winning streak, and his losses came to ufc caliber fighters. he is a legend and with all the legends being given another go, i dont see why they wont give him, ESPECIALLY if he beats tim sylvia. if he knocks out tim i can guarantee the ufc will pick him up, and tim will go to strikeforce


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I think Tim is going to Strikeforce regardless of whether he pulls a win out of his ass against Rizzo or not!:thumb02:


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

If Timmy can defeat Rizzo I wouldn't mind seeing him in STRIKEFORCE...

But I wouldn't put him on any STRIKEFORCE rankings list until his name is inked period.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah who would his debut be anyways?


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> If Timmy can defeat Rizzo I wouldn't mind seeing him in STRIKEFORCE...
> 
> But I wouldn't put him on any STRIKEFORCE rankings list until his name is inked period.


well you cannot rank ANY fighter in an org before they had a match, technically. meaning Shields should not be ranked in the ufc. but the thing is, you have to make rankings meaningful,considering what is going to happen. theres no point making rankings when you know very soon they are going to change and make a big mess. so ranking sylvia who is a former defending ufc champ, who has 2 wins in a row over arlovski who is top 10, is not out of the question.all the great fighters outside the ufc fight in either strikeforce or bellator. how many fighters can you name that are even B level that fight outside of them? sylvia will fight in strikeforce after his next fight, and should be ranked when he enters strikeforce.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> well you cannot rank ANY fighter in an org before they had a match, technically. meaning Shields should not be ranked in the ufc.


Innacurate. You can not rank any fighter in an org until they are *SIGNED*

Once they are signed and officially part of the roster you can not take their world ranking away simply because the org in question hasn't put them on a card yet.




UFC86 said:


> theres no point making rankings when you know very soon they are going to change and make a big mess


I disagree. Rankings change with every card almost. That's why they are done almost monthly..



UFC86 said:


> so ranking sylvia who is a former defending ufc champ, who has 2 wins in a row over arlovski who is top 10, is not out of the question


In world rankings I agree.

But you simply can not do that in the STRIKEFORCE rankings where Tim Sylvia is not signed and does not fight.



UFC86 said:


> sylvia will fight in strikeforce after his next fight, and should be ranked when he enters strikeforce.


Where is your source that guarantees him a contract in Strikeforce? This is what I'm saying...

You can't rank based on speculation it is not a realistic ranking.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Where is your source that guarantees him a contract in Strikeforce? This is what I'm saying...
> 
> You can't rank based on speculation it is not a realistic ranking.


tim sylvia expressed interest in fighting for a major org like ufc or strikeforce. after the ko by mercer you can be very sure he will not be fighting for the ufc, dana wont bring him in, though dana is unexpected.

strikeforce is second biggest to the ufc, and sylvia expressed interest fighting for strikeforce. strikeforce signed guys like kharitonov and valentjin overeem. they will have a place for timmy.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> tim sylvia expressed interest in fighting for a major org like ufc or strikeforce. after the ko by mercer you can be very sure he will not be fighting for the ufc, dana wont bring him in, though dana is unexpected.
> 
> strikeforce is second biggest to the ufc, and sylvia expressed interest fighting for strikeforce. strikeforce signed guys like kharitonov and valentjin overeem. they will have a place for timmy.


You are speculating. And you just admitted it.

You can not rank a fighter in an organization based on speculation.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah it just isn't something you can do unless the guy fights for an organization!:thumbsdown:


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> not at all im not dismissing anything. on the contrary, youre dismissing Roger Gracie for having only 3 MMA fights, but im showing you most fighters other then the top 3 do not have much fights to brag about either. most of them either fought in a higher weightclass or against nobodies. my opinion was that Gracie's 2 wins are more impressive then most others in SF, and his BJJ resume should carry him to the top.





UFC86 said:


> i also feel like some of the fighters may be too early to get a spot in the ufc, since they lack experience in MMA and are unproven
> 
> Roger Gracie-only had 3 mma fights with past their prime opponents


Somebody is talking out both sides of their mouth.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

im actually shocked at the lenght of this thread.
i always thought that strikeforce mainly consisted of local guys, guys that were thrown out of ufc (lindland, babalu, daley, etc) some old geezers and some celebrities (lashley, batista, walker etc)


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> im actually shocked at the lenght of this thread.
> i always thought that strikeforce mainly consisted of local guys, guys that were thrown out of ufc (lindland, babalu, daley, etc) some old geezers and some celebrities (lashley, batista, walker etc)


Wow at the beginning of this thread Roger Gracie was a world beater, now he's a bum. You simply talked yourself into a corner and can't find a way out.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah Roger can become a champion over time, but he needs some more matches!:thumbsup:


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah Roger can become a champion over time, but he needs some more matches!:thumbsup:


Well as usual you're wrong.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

My bad wrong word, he has earned a ranking over time though as his last two matches have proved, he is clearly overrated. Unfortunately those who rank people have a clear tendency to rank people wrong as in the case of Werdum and Fedor at present. Rogers should not be top ten until he re-earns it!


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

kantowrestler said:


> My bad wrong word, he has earned a ranking over time though as his last two matches have proved, he is clearly overrated. Unfortunately those who rank people have a clear tendency to rank people wrong as in the case of Werdum and Fedor at present. Rogers should not be top ten until he re-earns it!


Well if Roger keeps going at this pace he'll hold a world title by 2017


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

update: to my big surprise Josh Barnett has signed with Strikeforce. since Tim Sylvia already holds a spot in the rankings, i will take him out until he signs. and people were complaining i had a place holder...

who could he fight? any of the top 4 would be interesting (fedor, overeem, antonio silva and werdum) and even kharitonov and arlovski. my guess though would be fedor...

edit: also Jorge Masvidal. he should be fighting Noons and the like.

HW
1. *Alistair Overeem *(Champion)
2. *Fabricio Werdum *(beat Fedor)
3. *Fedor Emelianenko *(former #1)
4. *Antonio Silva *(former Elite XC champion)
5. *Brett Rogers*
6. *Josh Barnett*
7. *Andrei Arlovski*
8. *Sergei Kharitonov*
9. Shane Del Rosario
10. Daniel Cormier
others: Chad Griggs, Lashley, Ray Sefo

LHW
1. *Feijao* (C)
2. *King Mo*(former champ)
3. *Mousasi* (former champ)
4. *Babalu* (former champ)
5. *Dan Henderson *(former UFC and Pride champion)
6. Mike Kyle
7. Abongo
8. Randleman
9. Antwain Britt
10. Aaron Rosa
others: Roger Gracie

MW
1. *Jacare* (C, adcc champ)
2. *Cung Le* (former champ)
3. *Robbie Lawler*
4. *Matt Lindland*
5. *Jason Miller*
6. *Tim Kennedy*
7. *Trevor Prangley*
8. Karl Amoussou
9. Luke Rockhold 
10.Benji Radach
others: Joey Villasenor, Misaki/Manhoef(fight mostly in Japan)

WW
1. *Nick Diaz *(c)
2. *Joe Riggs*
3. *Jesse Taylor*
4. *Siyar *
5. *Evangelista Cyborg* 
6. *Paul Daley* 
7. Tyron Woodley
8. Roger Bowling
9. Andre Galvao
10. Tarrec Saffiedine
othersaul Bradley, Nathan Coy, Scott Smith (dropping to 170)

LW
1. *Melendez* (c)
2. *Thomson* (former champion)
3. *KJ Noons *(former Elite XC champion)
4. *JZ Calvan*
5. *Beerbohm*
6. *Vitor Ribeiro*
7. *Jorge Masvidal*
8. Billy Evangelista
9. Mike Aina
10. Jorge Gurgel
others: Justin Wilcox, Pat Healy, Zaromskis (possible drop to 155) 
Aoki/Kawajiri (in DREAM currently)


----------



## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Those are good lists now I think UFC86.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Might want to add Barnett to the list now that he's signed with Strikeforce. Sorry after all that work you made!


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Might want to add Barnett to the list now that he's signed with Strikeforce. Sorry after all that work you made!


look 2 posts above you


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, I think he is going to establish himself and maybe get a fight in against Bigfoot. I wonder how many fights he will have to fight before getting a title shot. It certainly will be interesting to see what he can do and if he can keep from testing positive for roids!:thumb02:


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, I think he is going to establish himself and maybe get a fight in against Bigfoot. I wonder how many fights he will have to fight before getting a title shot. It certainly will be interesting to see what he can do and if he can keep from testing positive for roids!:thumb02:


i personally think Barnett should not be signed by a promotion in the ufc. he is a multiple time roider and never won a huge match while testing negative for steroids.

his win over Randy Couture for the title was stained by testing positive for steroids and leaving ufc.
then in Japan where there is no testing in place he won some big matches, including nogueira, Hunt and Alex E. then he had 2 wins over Rizzo and Yvel before testing positive again for steroids (im not sure if he was tested in the Rizzo and Yvel fights). other then that he has no big wins.

i personally like Barnett and think he has a great unique style of catch wrestling mostly used by the shamrocks, as well as much improved striking which he showed by knocking out Rizzo.but i think that he belongs in the same category as paulo filho in that hes got great potential but has to roid to use it.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> i personally think Barnett should not be signed by a promotion in the ufc. he is a multiple time roider and never won a huge match while testing negative for steroids.
> 
> i think that he belongs in the same category as paulo filho in that hes got great potential but has to roid to use it.



Same catagory as Sean Sherk? Or Hermes Franca, Phil Baroni or Chris Leben?


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Same catagory as Sean Sherk? Or Hermes Franca, Phil Baroni or Chris Leben?


well not exactly...

franca, baroni, leben and sherk were caught once.

Barnett was caught 3 times, and paulo filho cancelled quite a few matches himself due to " chemical dependence"

phil baroni is an obvious juicer, he was juicing before he got into mma back when he was bodybuilding. phil baroni has friends in high places though so that is probably the case.

sean sherk obviously likes to juice

hermes franca may have juiced once, and he lost to sean sherk. he knew sherk would juice so he juiced as well. note he no longer fights in ufc.

chris leben only juiced once so far, and it was in England maybe he was dumb enough to think they wont test.

you forgot to mention stephan bonnar who is not even on par with ufc.

personally i think if you juice once you should be suspended for at least a year if not two. if you juice twice you should be banned.

leben and sherk are the more prominent fighters that got caught, but it only happened once.

edit: this is who i believe juiced
Josh Barnett, sylvia, randleman, royce gracie, baroni, mark coleman, vitor belfort, tito ortiz, wanderlei silva,bob sapp(though he was still a fail), sherk, franca, bonnar, leben, overeem, paulo filho, arona, monson, cro cop, Kongo, Lashley, Lesnar, Carwin, lombard, palhares, scott ferrozo


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well we know that Barnett, Sylvia and Royce all tested positive for roids cause Barnett and Royce tested positive and Sylvia admitted to it. But did Bonnar really test positive for roids cause I didn't know that. I also didn't know that Baroni was a bodybuilder before going into MMA. Also I haven't heard anything on Carwin for a while since that "list" came out and I still think that is a flimsy source cause that blog is the only source. Lastly we all know that Filho had a drug problem but he got himself straitened out, but not before he had that bizzare loss to Sonnen which ultimately cost him a spot in the UFC!


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> well not exactly...
> 
> franca, baroni, leben and sherk were caught once.
> 
> ...



Just because you were only caught once doesn't mean it was your first time.

But to make my stand point clear.... If you're juicing at this level of competition I think you should be banned period...

Because if you defeat an opponent who put his heart and soul into a training camp because you are on drugs... thats just wrong and there should be something much more stiff than a year vacation.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Just because you were only caught once doesn't mean it was your first time.
> 
> But to make my stand point clear.... If you're juicing at this level of competition I think you should be banned period...
> 
> Because if you defeat an opponent who put his heart and soul into a training camp because you are on drugs... thats just wrong and there should be something much more stiff than a year vacation.


Overeem
Belfort
Wanderlei
Leben
Palhares
Lombard
Cro Cop
Lesnar
Carwin
can you really pass on these fighters?

also have my doubts regarding Marquardt,Rizzo, Antonio Silva, GSP, Rumble, Couture, Alves


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> Overeem
> Belfort
> Wanderlei
> Leben
> ...


Lesnar, Cro Cop, Lombard Palhares Wandy have never been popped for steroids what are you talking about??

And yes I'd pass on any fighter who tests postive... just like bringing a weapon into a cage...


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Same catagory as Sean Sherk? Or Hermes Franca, Phil Baroni or Chris Leben?


It's a little different. Barnett has popped positive on three different ocassions. Since he tested positive against Couture, he has had 4 fights scheduled in the US (where fighters are tested). He has popped positive twice.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> It's a little different. Barnett has popped positive on three different ocassions. Since he tested positive against Couture, he has had 4 fights scheduled in the US (where fighters are tested). He has popped positive twice.


Yeah I'll give you that. I just hate fighters who use steriods in general..


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Which is why most of his fights have been outside where testing doesn't happen. He's also done alot of prowrestling as well. Though at some point he had to come back to America where there is a chance he could test positive!:thumbsdown:


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Yeah I'll give you that. I just hate fighters who use steriods in general..


I agree. I'm not a fan of the other guys either.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, cause regardless of how effective they are they cheated. I still wonder why Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds have the recognition they have when they cheated. What happened to when fighters made a name for themselves by raw talent?


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Lesnar, Cro Cop, Lombard Palhares Wandy have never been popped for steroids what are you talking about??
> 
> And yes I'd pass on any fighter who tests postive... just like bringing a weapon into a cage...


Lesnar- got caught by police with HGH (hormones). also was in wwe...
Cro Cop- was accused by someone of using steroids to which he didnt refute, and just commented on how Kongo used potatoes to get big or something
wanderlei- when he was in pride EVERYBODY was saying he juiced and just look at him. he looks completely different now and fights at middleweight.

lombard and palhares- just look at them- theyre just genetic freaks like lashley and randleman right...oh wait


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> Lesnar- got caught by police with HGH (hormones). also was in wwe...
> Cro Cop- was accused by someone of using steroids to which he didnt refute, and just commented on how Kongo used potatoes to get big or something
> wanderlei- when he was in pride EVERYBODY was saying he juiced and just look at him. he looks completely different now and fights at middleweight.
> 
> lombard and palhares- just look at them- theyre just genetic freaks like lashley and randleman right...oh wait


So no evidence then? Popping positive for steroids means testing positive. None of the fighters you listed have done so. Once again you're just making stuff up. Lesnar wasn't caught with HGH. Someone said Cro Cop used steroids? Really who, when? I say you're the queen of England. Is that true? There's no evidence Wanderlei, Lombard, and Palhares took steroids. You just think they did. Let's stop making statements you made up and pass them off as facts.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> So no evidence then? Popping positive for steroids means testing positive. None of the fighters you listed have done so. Once again you're just making stuff up. *Lesnar wasn't caught with HGH*. Someone said Cro Cop used steroids? Really who, when? I say you're the queen of England. Is that true? There's no evidence Wanderlei, Lombard, and Palhares took steroids. You just think they did. Let's stop making statements you made up and pass them off as facts.


orly?


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> orly?


A picture of Lesnar's face that's your proof. His face hasn't changed since high school.










You said he got caught with HGH. Where's the source of your wild accusation. You said that "someone" (who is you) said Cro Cop does steroids. Where's your source. You claim you can tell just by looking at Lombard and Palhares that they are juicing. I don't know why the athletic commissions don't just hire you. Your sixth sense steroid detector would be easier than blood/urine tests. The bottom line is that you constantly make stuff up (you say I heard, when you only heard it in your own head), then you get upset when someone calls you on your BS.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Ranking Kevin Randalman at #8 in the LHW listings isn't accurate IMO.

And you have Jesse Taylor ranked above Paul Daley? There's no logical explanation for that that anybody can conjur.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, who has Jesse Taylor beat at welterweight of note?


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> A picture of Lesnar's face that's your proof. His face hasn't changed since high school.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thats a mugshot of lesnar when police arrested him for possession of illegal hormones. thats enough proof for you?

and regarding on looking at fighters, i dont know ANY fighter that looks ripped and hasnt used steroids. almost every single athlete that looks muscular was found to use steroids, even some of those that arent muscular. Coleman, Randleman, Lesnar, Carwin, Belfort, Paulo Filho, Wanderlei, pihl baroni,Sherk, bobby lashley, bob sapp were all found to be using steroids. the only fighters that i have no proof on that look muscular are GSP, palhares and lombard. lombard until recently didnt even fight in america (he couldnt cause of visa issues) and palhares just looks rediculously muscular.only a few fighters that are muscular didnt test positive YET.



_RIVAL_ said:


> Ranking Kevin Randalman at #8 in the LHW listings isn't accurate IMO.
> 
> And you have Jesse Taylor ranked above Paul Daley? There's no logical explanation for that that anybody can conjur.


are you saying randleman should be lower or higher? because if you want to rank him lower, it is hard enough to find 10 legit lhw fighters in strikeforce.....

jesse taylor was a title contender. paul daley hadnt fought once for strikeforce and almost lost to a lightweight in his last fight. hes fighting cyborg next so a win could jump him to the top. here i conjured an explanation


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> are you saying randleman should be lower or higher? because if you want to rank him lower, it is hard enough to find 10 legit lhw fighters in strikeforce.....


When you've lost 8 of your last 10 everybody is more legit than you..



UFC86 said:


> jesse taylor was a title contender. paul daley hadnt fought once for strikeforce and almost lost to a lightweight in his last fight


You can't drop a fighters rankings for having a close fight... he's defeated Martain Kampmann who is a sick WW and just defeated a very tough Masvidal...

No way in hell is Jesse Taylor higher ranked than Paul Daley...

I'm gonna have to finally tell you straight out UFC86 after a month of debating with you.... you really have absolutly no clue how to rank fighters and you are putting together a favorites list...not a rankings list


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> thats a mugshot of lesnar when police arrested him for possession of illegal hormones. thats enough proof for you?


So again there is no proof. HGH is illegal so why wasn't he charged? This is because there was no HGH. The only place you will be able to find that it was hgh is on other forums, where idiots like you spout what they think.



UFC86 said:


> and regarding on looking at fighters, i dont know ANY fighter that looks ripped and hasnt used steroids. almost every single athlete that looks muscular was found to use steroids, even some of those that arent muscular. Coleman, Randleman, Lesnar, Carwin, Belfort, Paulo Filho, Wanderlei, pihl baroni,Sherk, bobby lashley, bob sapp were all found to be using steroids. the only fighters that i have no proof on that look muscular are GSP, palhares and lombard. lombard until recently didnt even fight in america (he couldnt cause of visa issues) and palhares just looks rediculously muscular.only a few fighters that are muscular didnt test positive YET.




Let's look at all the false statements you made.

1. Lesnar, Wanderlei, Lombard, and Palhares have never tested positive or been found in possession of steroids.

2. The idea that everyone who looks muscular is using steroids is ridiculous. Different people's bodies respond differently to weight training. The idea that every muscular person uses steroids has got to be one of the dumbest things anyone has said on this forum EVER.
3. Every athlete that looks muscular has been found to use steroids? I know you're being hyperbolic, but still it's not even close to being right. What about athletes that had huge muscles before steroids. What was Sonny Liston taking? This idea is just too stupid to be an intelligent person's actual opinion.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> When you've lost 8 of your last 10 everybody is more legit than you..
> 
> You can't drop a fighters rankings for having a close fight... he's defeated Martain Kampmann who is a sick WW and just defeated a very tough Masvidal...
> 
> ...


most of the other posters seemed to like my rankings
name 3 fighters below randleman who should be ranked abvoe him. he lost "8 out of 10 fights" so what? if you fought cro cop, fedor, shogun, Nakamura, Nedkov and Roger Gracie and lost, how low should you be ranked? since when is it about losses?

and again Paul Daley didnt even fight for strikeforce. i know you like ranking fighters as #1 before they fought for the promotion (see jake shields) but in my book you have to EARN your spot. if he beats cyborg i could rank him top 3.



rockybalboa25 said:


> So again there is no proof. HGH is illegal so why wasn't he charged? This is because there was no HGH. The only place you will be able to find that it was hgh is on other forums, *where idiots like you spout what they think*.
> 
> 
> Let's look at all the false statements you made.
> ...


oh no he just went there!

Lesnar WAS found in possession of illegal substances, ive been telling you this about 10 times
Wanderlei was rumored by ALL pride fighters to use steroids
lombard and palhares are probably the only 2 muscular fighters in mma that had no evidence of PED's. but guess what, they just werent caught.

and yes every muscular fighter has used PED's. lets take a look:
Brock Lesnar
Cro Cop
Kongo
Bobby Lashley
Bob Sapp
Shane Carwin
Vitor Belfort
Paulo Filho
Ricardo Arona
Tito Ortiz
Phil Baroni
Wanderlei Silva
Sean Sherk
Thiago Alves

and some that are not that ripped
Royce Gracie
Tim Sylvia
Josh Barnett
Stephan Bonnar
Chris Leben
and now Chael Sonnen

most ripped fighters that havent been confirmed
Lombard
Palhares
GSP
Sokoudjou
Gomi
Diego
Koscheck
Shogun (i actually think he IS on steroids)
JDS


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> Lesnar WAS found in possession of illegal substances, ive been telling you this about 10 times


And I have explained to you that he wasn't charged, because it turns out he wasn't in possession of steroids or HGH. Do you understand? If you are carrying a bag of pills the police can arrest you on suspicion. If those pills aren't illegal, which PEDS, HGH, and steroids are, then you are released with no charges. Since Lesnar was never charged, he was not in possession of any of these substances.



UFC86 said:


> Wanderlei was rumored by ALL pride fighters to use steroids


Please list one source for this "rumor". If you can't than you obviously made it up.



UFC86 said:


> lombard and palhares are probably the only 2 muscular fighters in mma that had no evidence of PED's. but guess what, they just werent caught.


Honestly this is too stupid to respond to, but here goes. How about: Bader, Cantwell, Couture, Phil Davis, Evans, Hamil, Jon Jones, Jackson, Akiyama, Gerald Harris, Munoz, Marcus DAvis, Marquardt, GSP, John Howard, Hughes, Anthony Johnson, Koscheck, Sera, Tyson Griffin, Guida, Maynard, Tavares, Del Rosario, Lamar Johnson, Herschel Walker, Feijao, King Mo, Jacare, Manheof, both Cyborgs, Hieron, Woodley, or Thomson. These are all muscular fighters that have never caught using PEDs. Phil Davis is a beast for example, but he was tested constantly when he was at penn state. Do you now see how ridiculous your assertion was?


UFC86 said:


> and yes every muscular fighter has used PED's. lets take a look:
> Brock Lesnar
> Cro Cop
> Kongo
> ...



Lets start with the fact that Kongo and Ortiz have never been caught or even accused of using PEDs. There is no credible source that Cro Cop ever used them either. Secondly the idea that every muscular person in the world is using steroids/peds is just stupid. Let me give you an example. My brother-in-law works out maybe twice a week and looks cut. If he lifts heavy weights for a few months he gains 10-15lbs in muscle. Everyone in their family is that way. Muscles mass and how quickly you develop it is highly genetic. When I was boxing, it took me a lot longer, but after about six months I was cut. Doing heavy workouts and eating right does that to a person. You still didn't answer my question about guys who were cut before there were steroids available. Guys like Liston, Ali, and Marciano looked cut out of stone. Explain that.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Christ this is getting downright dumb..


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> And I have explained to you that he wasn't charged, *because it turns out he wasn't in possession of steroids or HGH*. Do you understand? If you are carrying a bag of pills the police can arrest you on suspicion. If those pills aren't illegal, which PEDS, HGH, and steroids are, then you are released with no charges. Since Lesnar was never charged, he was not in possession of any of these substances.
> 
> Please list one source for this "rumor". If you can't than you obviously made it up.
> 
> ...


im not saying anyone who looks in good shape is on steroids. im saying if you look EXTREMELY ripped (meaning big muscles and cut) then you probably are. nobody is genetically like an animal, and just working out doesnt do it either, unless you use some chemic assistance. actually Shogun, Wanderlei, Jon Jones and the like are some of my favorite fighters in the world, but i believe they used it.

Lesnar WAS caught by police in possession of Growth Hormones

rumor of Shogun and Wanderlei on steroids (disregarding that personally they look rediculousy ripped):
http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/08...sinutates-shogun-and-wanderlei-used-steroids/

Cro Cop and Kongo
http://www.mmamania.com/2008/02/16/fightin-words-mirko-cro-cop-and-cheick-kongo-exchange-barbs/

Tito Ortiz- his former best friend (from highschool) Tank Abbott pretty much said long time ago that Tito Ortiz was on steroids and thats why his forehead is so huge. i will provide link upon request (though you should trust me by now)

Bader, Matt Hughes, Josh Koscheck, gray maynard, clay 
guida- no evidence so far, but they are wrestlers and it helps with getting ripped, though how ripped are they really? as i said so far i have no evidence

Couture- had some surgery that helped him with his hormones, but it was for medical reasons so is not considered illegal

Phil Davis- has a very awekward physique, i dont even know what to say

evans, Jon Jones, gerald harris, king mo, Jackson- why do you consider them ripped?

*Akiyama*- he WAS accused by other fighters including Alan Belcher. just google it

Munoz, Marcus Davis, John Howard, cantwell im not going to search, havent heard anything regarding them

*Marquardt-* what are you talking about he tested positive?!

GSP- Penn said he had some info he was on steroids 

Anthony Johnson- i think he is 

Sera- i read rumors that due to his head size he may be on 
HGH. at the same time, he may be not its just what i read

Tyson Griffin- no evidence thus far 

Tavares (whichever one), Del Rosario, Lamar Johnson,Woodley,hieron, Thomson (Josh?) and the like are not big enough names for inquiry to be made into them.

Herschel Walker- played in NFL, have to look for NFL testings

Feijao and Jacare- no evidence thus far

Manheof- fought more or less in japan 

both Cyborgs- some women have rediculous amounts of male hormones, cris cyborg is one example 

i cannot make comments regarding boxing since i only watched boxing without inquiry into PED's in boxing. Manny Pacquiao was accused often of using steroids.

edit:


> Christ this is getting downright dumb..


i will also not make any more comments regarding this topic, since the admins and mods consider it "smack talk". i will just wait for more fighters to test positive, but until then i will not make any more discussion


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> im not saying anyone who looks in good shape is on steroids. im saying if you look EXTREMELY ripped (meaning big muscles and cut) then you probably are. nobody is genetically like an animal, and just working out doesnt do it either, unless you use some chemic assistance. actually Shogun, Wanderlei, Jon Jones and the like are some of my favorite fighters in the world, but i believe they used it.
> 
> Lesnar WAS caught by police in possession of Growth Hormones
> 
> ...


As I said people can get extremely ripped, it's based on their genetics and body type. If you think every ripped person in the world is on steroids, you're an idiot. 

For the last time time Lesnar was NOT!!!! caught with growth hormone. He was arrested for what they thought were steroids. Since they weren't steroids/growth hormone he was not charged. I've said this multiple times. You're like a child who just keeps saying the same thing over and over despite being refuted. 

So let me get this straight every time a fighter says another fighter is juicing, it's a fact. By that logic GSP had to be greasing because Penn said so. An opponent would obviously never say something that's untrue. As far as Tito, we are trusting what Tank Abott says? The UFC must really have added rules and rounds to keep him from winning, instead of becoming a legit sport by that logic. The rest of you guys must be using steroids logic is retarded. I never said boxing now was void of steroids. I simply stated some fighters that were extremely cut from a time before steroids and asked you to explain how they got that way, since "no one can get cut without steroids". You never answered that because there is no answer. If you make the assertion that the only way to get cut is to use steroids, than there is no way to explain fighters being cut before steroids were available.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> As I said people can get extremely ripped, it's based on their genetics and body type. If you think every ripped person in the world is on steroids, you're an idiot.
> 
> For the last time time Lesnar was NOT!!!! caught with growth hormone. He was arrested for what they thought were steroids. Since they weren't steroids/growth hormone he was not charged. I've said this multiple times. You're like a child who just keeps saying the same thing over and over despite being refuted.
> 
> So let me get this straight every time a fighter says another fighter is juicing, it's a fact. By that logic GSP had to be greasing because Penn said so. An opponent would obviously never say something that's untrue. As far as Tito, we are trusting what Tank Abott says? The UFC must really have added rules and rounds to keep him from winning, instead of becoming a legit sport by that logic. The rest of you guys must be using steroids logic is retarded. I never said boxing now was void of steroids. I simply stated some fighters that were extremely cut from a time before steroids and asked you to explain how they got that way, since "no one can get cut without steroids". You never answered that because there is no answer. If you make the assertion that the only way to get cut is to use steroids, than there is no way to explain fighters being cut before steroids were available.


heres for your dumbass

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/celebrity/sports/brock-lesnar

"Hit with a trafficking in controlled substances charge, Lesnar was exonerated when tests showed that the seized pills were not, in fact, steroids. While *a Louisville detective told TSG that the material was some kind of growth hormone*, Lesnar's defense attorney, Scott Cox, characterized the confiscated pills as a 'vitamin type of thing."

and yes GSP was greasing according to others then BJ. and no he wasnt greasing enough to influence the fight.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> heres for your dumbass
> 
> http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/celebrity/sports/brock-lesnar
> 
> ...


So again no evidence, because if it was hgh he would have been charged. HGH is illegal. If you think GSP was greasing you're even dumber than I thought.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> So again no evidence, because if it was hgh he would have been charged. HGH is illegal. If you think GSP was greasing you're even dumber than I thought.


it wasnt HGH it was "vitamins". its kinda like saying because someone is found not guilty hes innocent.

yes GSP was greasing, but not intentionally and not significally enough to overturn the fight. but there was grease on him. no smoke without fire genius

double. please delete.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> it wasnt HGH it was "vitamins". its kinda like saying because someone is found not guilty hes innocent.
> 
> yes GSP was greasing, but not intentionally and not significally enough to overturn the fight. but there was grease on him. no smoke without fire genius


The legal issue of not guilty incorporating reasonable doubt doesn't apply here; there was no trial. Are you trying to tell me that they arrested Brock Lesnar on suspicion of steroids. Then they find out that he has enough HGH to get a distribution charge, but they let him go without even charging him? The cops most likely said it was a growth hormone to keep them from looking stupid for arresting a guy for supplements. If it was HGH by law they have to charge him. They did not. 

Just because a fighter makes a claim doesn't make it real. Palhares made the same claim. Where's the fire there? He was immediately discredited. Fighters always come up with excuses why they lost. Do you really think every loss Ortiz has had was due to injury?


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

there are no changes whatsoever in the rankings
but i wanted to make some comments on the next event strikeforce saint louis

rumored card:
main
Dan Henderson vs Renato Sobral
Paul Daley vs Scott Smith
Antonio Silva vs Valentjin Overeem
Robbie lawler vs Matt Lindland
Roger Gracie vs Myke kyle
undercard
Herschell Walker
Jesse Finney
Luis Santos

the main event should be Hendo vs Babalu because they are former champions and contenders and are big names. i think they should be tested against younger guys (maybe vs roger gracie) but its still a great match

the co-main event should be daley vs scott smith because its for the welterweight title shot.

after this it would be antonio silva vs little overeem. antonio silva is a top contender and little overeem could be a good stepping stone for ubereem.

close behind is robbie lawler vs matt lindland. now this fight doesnt make sense from strikeforce perspective as lawler is in a "jake shields situation" where he might win and move to ufc, and lindland at this point is nothing more then a gatekeeper. would be good though if lawler knocks him out and tests himself in ufc again.

last is mike kyle vs roger gracie which are 2 up and comers and they may be switched to the undercard instead of herschell walker who might be fighting Batista.

Luis Santos is a dangerous veteran whose a good acquirement for strikeforce.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

St Louis should be a good card. It's a card of UFC calibur - Can't wait for Daley/Smith and Kyle/Gracie.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> there are no changes whatsoever in the rankings
> but i wanted to make some comments on the next event strikeforce saint louis
> 
> rumored card:
> ...


Silva/Overeem isn't happening


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Silva/Overeem isn't happening


they put it back on

edit: rankings
HW
1. *Fabricio Werdum *(beat Fedor)
2. *Fedor Emelianenko *(former #1)
3. *Brett Rogers*
4. *Josh Barnett*
5. *Andrei Arlovski*
6. *Sergei Kharitonov*
7. Tim Sylvia
8. Shane Del Rosario
9. Daniel Cormier
10. Chad Griggs 
others: Ray Sefo

LHW
1. *Feijao* (C)
2. *Mousasi* (former champ)
3. *King Mo*(former champ)
4. *Babalu* (former champ)
5. *Dan Henderson *(former UFC and Pride champion)
6. Mike Kyle
7. Abongo
8. Randleman
9. Antwain Britt
10. Aaron Rosa
others: Roger Gracie

MW
1. *Jacare* (C, adcc champ)
2. *Matt Lindland*
3. *Jason Miller*
4. *Tim Kennedy*
5. Yancy Medeiros
6. Trevor Prangley
7. Karl Amoussou
8. Luke Rockhold 
9.Benji Radach
10. Jesse Taylor
others: Joey Villasenor
Misaki/Manhoef/Santiago(fight mostly in Japan)

WW
1. *Nick Diaz *(c)
2. Paul Daley
3. Scott Smith
4. *Siyar *
5. *Evangelista Cyborg* 
6. Tyron Woodley
7. Roger Bowling
8. Andre Galvao
9. Tarrec Saffiedine
10. Joe Riggs
othersaul Bradley, Nathan Coy, Luis Santos

LW
1. *Melendez* (c)
2. *Thomson* (former champion)
3. *KJ Noons *(former Elite XC champion)
4. *JZ Calvan*
5. *Beerbohm*
6. *Vitor Ribeiro*
7. *Jorge Masvidal*
8. Billy Evangelista
9. Mike Aina
10. Justin Wilcox
others: Pat Healy, Zaromskis (possible drop to 155) 
Aoki/Kawajiri (in DREAM currently)


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> they put it back on


They should have scrapped it. A win over Overeem does nothing for Bigfoot.

I think Masvidal is one big win away from being top 5 in SF LW rankings.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Why is Overeem not even listed as one of the top ten ranked when he is the champion?:confused05:


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

kantowrestler said:


> Why is Overeem not even listed as one of the top ten ranked when he is the champion?:confused05:


These aren't rankings. This is a fan list. He doesn't even have Robbie Lawler ranked at all in MW.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> These aren't rankings. This is a fan list. He doesn't even have Robbie Lawler ranked at all in MW.


i have not listed jay hieron on this list either and nobody complained. robbie lawler and overeem are near the end of their contract and say they want to leave the company. like i said before i like rankings to be relevant to the near future, instead of changing them around every month or so. maybe i should put overeem back on as he might stick with strikeforce for awhile but he expressed interest to leave within a short time.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> i have not listed jay hieron on this list either and nobody complained. robbie lawler and overeem are near the end of their contract and say they want to leave the company. like i said before i like rankings to be relevant to the near future, instead of changing them around every month or so. maybe i should put overeem back on as he might stick with strikeforce for awhile but he expressed interest to leave within a short time.



These are not rankings. These are your favorite fighters by top 10.

And it's a good thing you didn't rank Heiron seeing as to he's not with Strikeforce anymore that's like ranking Todd Duffee in the UFCs top 10 but I'm certain you were already aware of that..


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> These are not rankings. These are your favorite fighters by top 10.
> 
> And it's a good thing you didn't rank Heiron seeing as to he's not with Strikeforce anymore that's like ranking Todd Duffee in the UFCs top 10 but I'm certain you were already aware of that..


strikeforce is tricky to rank because theyre not the primary org in the world. their top fighters like Shields, Hieron etc tend to leave to ufc. in ufc fighters usually fall out from top 10 after losses or inactivity (or rare cases like paul daley) but in strikeforce they sometiems go to ufc, go fight somewhere else and sometimes just jump around from one organization to another. i just ranked the top 10 in strikeforce to see how they stack up in the minors.do u really want to rank fighters like cung le or lawler? lawler is fighting in the next card against lindland and then his contract is up. i highly doubt he will resign with strikeforce as they mistreated him and tried to use him as a stepping stone for manhoef.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> . i just ranked the top 10 in strikeforce to see how they stack up in the minors.do u really want to rank fighters like cung le or lawler? .


That is why your list isn't a rankings list. It is a "favorites" list.


----------



## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Where are Jacare and Melendez meant to go from here? Who can they fight? The former against Cung Le would be great though I thnk Le is a bit past it now, but other than that, both look to have beat the top competition in their division already. Too bad in a way Shields left, would have been a great middle title fight there.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Fine Wine said:


> Where are Jacare and Melendez meant to go from here? Who can they fight? The former against Cung Le would be great though I thnk Le is a bit past it now, but other than that, both look to have beat the top competition in their division already. Too bad in a way Shields left, would have been a great middle title fight there.


Gilbert Melendez can still sustain his spot by defeating Eddie Alvarez and the winner of the JZ/Thompson rematch afterward if they put that together..

Jacare can up his ranking by defeating Hector Lombard and the winner of a MW tournament if they can get one going..


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Gilbert Melendez can still sustain his spot by defeating Eddie Alvarez and the winner of the JZ/Thompson rematch afterward if they put that together..
> 
> Jacare can up his ranking by defeating Hector Lombard and the winner of a MW tournament if they can get one going..


melendez is probably rematching Aoki next on DREAM NYE. i hope JZ and Thomson rematch because their match was close and good. but i dont see the winner fighting for title yet. i want to see beerbohm and evangelista in there.

regarding Jacare theres still Jorge Santiago coming in from Sengoku.

a card of Strikeforce vs Bellator is HIGHLY unlikely.


----------



## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Yeh, unfortunately I'm starting to think Strikeforce V Bellator is extremelly unlikely. Strikeforce doesn't want to loose their rep as the second biggest org in the world.

Melendez rematch with Aoki would be good at least.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I do agree that a Strikeforce versus Bellator card was unlikely from the first place. However, I do believe that Alveraz versus Melendez is still very possible. Though I do agree that the Aoki rematch is probably going to happen first!:thumbsup:


----------



## El Bresko (Mar 12, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> last is mike kyle vs roger gracie which are 2 up and comers


Mike Kyle has been around a long time, he was fighting in the UFC 6 years ago!

EDIT: speaking of Mike Kyle, i haven't seen a fight of his in a long, long time, but back in his UFC days he was big and cut, does this make him a roider?


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

MRBRESK said:


> Mike Kyle has been around a long time, he was fighting in the UFC 6 years ago!
> 
> EDIT: speaking of Mike Kyle, i haven't seen a fight of his in a long, long time, but back in his UFC days he was big and cut, does this make him a roider?


actually the fight is moved from this card so mike kyle vs roger gracie would not be fighting on this card. 

also, Dan Severn will make his referee debut and Jim Ross will replace Gus Johnson as commentator, all according to wikipedia...

regarding kyle, hes a big dude and was a heavyweight who had a feud with ricco rodriguez back in the day. hes huge for 205 and may be why he beat feijao.


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

Yeh I saw Kyle would be fighting Roger. I would love to see him vs King Mo to see if the BJJ legend could submit the stud wrestler!


----------



## MMA specialist (Nov 8, 2010)

Kyle is a veteran and an up and comer, lol.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

MMA specialist said:


> Kyle is a veteran and an up and comer, lol.


He's an up and comer because it is only recently that he's been able to put his game together and be taken serously...


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

updated rankings
HW
1. *Fabricio Werdum *(beat Fedor)
2. *Fedor Emelianenko *(former #1)
3. Josh Barnett
4. Brett Rogers
5. Andrei Arlovski
6. Sergei Kharitonov
7. Tim Sylvia
8. Shane Del Rosario
9. Daniel Cormier
10. Chad Griggs 
others: Lavar Johnson

LHW
1. *Feijao* (C)
2. *Dan Henderson *(former UFC and Pride champion)
3. Mike Kyle
4. Mousasi (former champ)
5. King Mo (former champ)
6. Babalu (former champ)
7. Roger Gracie
8. Randleman
9. Abongo
10. Ovince St. Preux
others: Aaron Rosa, Antwain Britt

MW
1. *Jacare* (C, adcc champ)
2. Jorge Santiago
3. Jason Miller
4. Tim Kennedy
5. Trevor Prangley
6. Luke Rockhold 
7. Melvin Manhoeff
8. Matt Lindland
9.Yancy Medeiros
10. Jesse Taylor
others: Misaki (mostly in Japan)

WW
1. *Nick Diaz *(c)
2. Paul Daley
3. Scott Smith
4. Siyar 
5. Evangelista Cyborg
6. Tyron Woodley
7. Nathan Coy
8. Tarrec Saffiedine
9. Joe Riggs
10. Luis "Sapo" Santos
others: Roger Bowling, Bobby Voelker

LW
1. *Melendez* (c)
2. *Thomson* (former champion)
3. *KJ Noons *(former Elite XC champion)
4. *JZ Calvan*
5. Justin Wilcox
6. Beerbohm
7. Vitor Ribeiro
8. Jorge Masvidal
9. Billy Evangelista
10. Mike Aina
others: Pat Healy, Zaromskis (possible drop to 155)


----------



## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Surely Ovince St. Preux should be Top 10 at 205? 3 fight win streak, with wins over Jason Day, Antwain Britt and Benji Radach. Should certainly be in the Top 10 if Britt and Randleman are in there. I'd drop Randleman and Rosa (fighting for Shark Fights, not Strikeforce) from the Top 10, and bring in Ovince St. Preux and Roger Gracie.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> Surely Ovince St. Preux should be Top 10 at 205? 3 fight win streak, with wins over Jason Day, Antwain Britt and Benji Radach. Should certainly be in the Top 10 if Britt and Randleman are in there. I'd drop Randleman and Rosa (fighting for Shark Fights, not Strikeforce) from the Top 10, and bring in Ovince St. Preux and Roger Gracie.


wow for once i agree with you. good post:thumbsup: done.

i did not want to rank Ovince for beating a much smaller Radach, but you do bring a good point with his previous wins.

edit: tried to good rep you DanM, but have to spread it around.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well considering the weak talent pool then I guess this moves him up. But I think some guys can easily get into the top ten just by signing up for Strikeforce. Though free agents still need to get signed!


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC86 said:


> updated rankings
> HW
> 1. *Fabricio Werdum *(beat Fedor)
> 2. *Fedor Emelianenko *(former #1)
> ...


Alastair Overeem isn't in your top 10 HWs? lol


----------



## GlasgowKiss (Sep 18, 2010)

Robbie Lawler absent as well, despite beating Lindland and Manheof, who are both listed.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Scott Smith #3? 

He's lost 3 of his last 4 and hes ranked over Woodley, Saffedine, Siyar, and Cyborg Santos?


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, not to mention he just lost to Paul Daley. I'm a Scott Smith fan myself but you are ranking him way too high. I think he needs to get some rebound wins before he can get that highly ranked!


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Wow, other than the top 5 or so HW, SF isn't building much of a roster. They need more depth. Most of the 6-10 ranked fighters are totally irrelevant.

Is Randleman seriously the 8th best LHW they have? My God. The guy is 3-10 in his last 13 fights. THeir roster still sucks.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Is Randleman seriously the 8th best LHW they have? My God. The guy is 3-10 in his last 13 fights. THeir roster still sucks.


No Randalman is not their 8th best LHW. That is not an official rankings list.

It is UFC86s opinion. and Randalman being anywhere near a top 10 spot is ridiculous in my opinion..


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Alastair Overeem isn't in your top 10 HWs? lol
> 
> Scott Smith #3?
> He's lost 3 of his last 4 and hes ranked over Woodley, Saffedine, Siyar, and Cyborg Santos?
> ...


Overeem and Lawler are at the end of their contract and Overeem is in K-1. why should i rank them in Strikeforce if theyre not signed with Strikeforce? i think Lawler finished all his strikeforce fights and Overeem is in K-1... otherwise i would rank Overeem at #1 (still arguably) and Lawler at #2.

Scott Smith has lost to #2 fighter Paul Daley. what have Saffiedine, Siyar and Cyborg done to be ahead of Scott Smith? the top 3 WW i listed all fought in UFC. where have the guys you listed fought?

who should be ranked ahead of Randleman at 8? dont forget Randleman held the UFC heavyweight title.


----------



## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

UFC86 said:


> who should be ranked ahead of Randleman at 8? dont forget Randleman held the UFC heavyweight title.


That was over 10 years ago..


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

Rauno said:


> That was over 10 years ago..


so name somebody who should be ranked ahead of him then. Ovince St. Preux? Abongo? Aaron Rosa? tell me what have they done.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> who should be ranked ahead of Randleman at 8? dont forget Randleman held the UFC heavyweight title.


hahahah

I just spit my coffee out my mouth. Thanks for the laugh!



UFC86 said:


> so name somebody who should be ranked ahead of him then. Ovince St. Preux? Abongo? Aaron Rosa? tell me what have they done.


They have done more than 3-10 in their last 13 fights. Randleman hasn't beat anyone decent in years and loses all the time. He shouldn't even be on their roster.


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Randelman is pretty terrible now to be honest. His overall record is 17-15. Also, in the last 10 almost 11 years, he has gone 9-12. That is pretty awful.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> hahahah
> 
> I just spit my coffee out my mouth. Thanks for the laugh!
> 
> They have done more than 3-10 in their last 13 fights. Randleman hasn't beat anyone decent in years and loses all the time. He shouldn't even be on their roster.


haha i just spit my apple juice lmao!
definetly abongo is > Randleman, Roger Gracie, King Mo, Mousasi, and Mike Kyle. he might even be ranked #1 right?

and this only cause i took your post seriously...
who has Abongo beaten? oh right i forgot he beat George Bush. i guess that counts for beating somebody famous...
Aaron Rosa fought nothing but NOBODIES and lost 3 of his last 7 fights...
Ovince beat Britt who also beat nobodies and just beat a guy in a lower weight that wasnt even in the top 10 there.
Randleman lost to Roger Gracie, Nedkov, Shogun, Kaz Nakamura, Cro Cop, Fedor, Sakuraba and Rampage. yeah i guess he lost a lot, but who wouldnt?

so again, who should be ranked ahead of Randleman


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> haha i just spit my apple juice lmao!
> definetly abongo is > Randleman, Roger Gracie, King Mo, Mousasi, and Mike Kyle. he might even be ranked #1 right?
> 
> and this only cause i took your post seriously...
> ...


So you would rather lose to nobodies recently rather than beat nobodies? 

5-10 years ago doesn't count. Should Cro Cop be a top 10 HW because of what he did back in the day? Maybe Tito is still a top whatever LHW in your eyes.

winning 3 of your last 13 fights should push you out of the sport...let alone being ranked in any organization.

Again you make no sense.


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> So you would rather lose to nobodies recently rather than beat nobodies?
> 
> 5-10 years ago doesn't count. Should Cro Cop be a top 10 HW because of what he did back in the day? Maybe Tito is still a top whatever LHW in your eyes.
> 
> ...


so should Tyson Griffin be out of the ufc? lets say he fought Frankie Edgar, Penn, Maynard, Dunham, Gomi, Benson, Alvarez, Melendez and Aoki and lost all those fights, should he be looking for a new profession????
he lost 3 of his last 3 fights last one being to Lentz, and hes given another chance. lets hate on dana then why hate on me?

Randleman beat Ryo Kawamura who is a solid C level fighter. who did Aaron Rosa, Abongo and Ovince beat? the biggest name on that list is Antwain Britt...

and dont compare top 10 ufc rankings with 10 top strikeforce rankings. Cro Cop may not be ranked top 10 in ufc, but if he went to strikeforce, you wouldnt pay him in top 10?!?!?!!?!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

How did we get the UFC and Strikeforce intertwined?


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> so should Tyson Griffin be out of the ufc? lets say he fought Frankie Edgar, Penn, Maynard, Dunham, Gomi, Benson, Alvarez, Melendez and Aoki and lost all those fights, should he be looking for a new profession????
> he lost 3 of his last 3 fights last one being to Lentz, and hes given another chance. lets hate on dana then why hate on me?
> 
> Randleman beat Ryo Kawamura who is a solid C level fighter. who did Aaron Rosa, Abongo and Ovince beat? the biggest name on that list is Antwain Britt...
> ...


yes if he was 3-13 in his last 13, I don't care who he fought...he should be cut.

Why do you act like Randleman has lost to all good fighterS? His recent losses are to teh likes of Roger Gracie, Mike Whitehead, Nedkov....these are not the elite of the division.....so I have no clue what you are trying to prove.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well you could call Roger Gracie a rising star in the divisino. Another way of putting it would be that Randeman is pretty much done. He just hasn't taken as much of a beating as guys like Ken Shamrock have!


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> yes if he was 3-13 in his last 13, I don't care who he fought...he should be cut.
> 
> Why do you act like Randleman has lost to all good fighterS? His recent losses are to teh likes of Roger Gracie, Mike Whitehead, Nedkov....these are not the elite of the division.....so I have no clue what you are trying to prove.


i admit whithead is a bad loss, but hes a big lhw that was at a point the favorite to win tuf 2 for heavyweights. randleman is not top 5 in strikeforce by any means, but to put him below aaron rosa who lost 3 of his last 7 fights, or abongo who only had like 7 fights and beat George Bush?

yes losing sucks, but Fedor, Cro Cop, Sakuraba, Rampage, Shogun at their prime... you think abongo or ovince would beat these guys?


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, Randleman has gone against the who's who in MMA. The problem is that he never really recovered from losses. There have been fights where he should've rebounded and ended up loosing!


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, Randleman has gone against the who's who in MMA. The problem is that he never really recovered from losses. There have been fights where he should've rebounded and ended up loosing!


his fight with Nedkov though was razor split loss. could have been a win...


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, but do you realize how many matches Nedkov has had in MMA and Randleman lost to him?:confused02:


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, but do you realize how many matches Nedkov has had in MMA and Randleman lost to him?:confused02:


and how many did abongo have?? which brings me back to my point.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

fights i would like to see made: 

Alistair Overeem vs Werdum 2

Fedor vs Kharitonov

Daniel Cormier vs Bobby Lashley

Feijao vs Kyle 2

Dan Henderson vs Lawal

Roger Gracie vs Babalu

Paul Daley vs Nick Diaz

Jorge Santiago vs Robbie Lawler


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> i admit whithead is a bad loss, but hes a big lhw that was at a point the favorite to win tuf 2 for heavyweights. randleman is not top 5 in strikeforce by any means, but to put him below aaron rosa who lost 3 of his last 7 fights, or abongo who only had like 7 fights and beat George Bush?
> 
> yes losing sucks, but Fedor, Cro Cop, Sakuraba, Rampage, Shogun at their prime... you think abongo or ovince would beat these guys?


No they wouldn't...but Randleman didn't either, besides Cro Cop once..

But that was years ago. Randleman was never a great fighter. And now he is half the fighter he even was. The guy is done, and has been done for a while now. He is no longer competitive.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> No they wouldn't...but Randleman didn't either, besides Cro Cop once..
> 
> But that was years ago. *Randleman was never a great fighter. *And now he is half the fighter he even was. The guy is done, and has been done for a while now. He is no longer competitive.


yeah winning the UFC HW title is nothing special...:sarcastic12:

im not talking about what he did years ago...he beat Ryo Kawamura recently who like i said is a solid C level.
who would you rank ahead of Randleman at 8??? i agree he got worse and fighters like Babalu would beat him, but Abongo and Aaron Rosa ahead of Randleman?


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> and how many did abongo have?? which brings me back to my point.


Abongo has finished all 7 of his wins. He lone 2 losses are vs. Rogers and Kyle...2 quality opponents. When was Randleman's last quality opponent? Shogun over 4 years ago. 

Roger Gracie may be decent. How do we know? Randleman is so easy to sub and that is all of Gracie's game. He subb'd 3 guys that aren't BJJ experts by any means...how can anyone take anything from that?

Fact is Abongo actually wins some fights. And loses to better fighters. Randleman hasn't been in a relevant fight in almost 5 years. He hasn't had a win in 2.5 years. He has 2 wins in the last 5 years. Both were decisions. You cant rank a guy that wins once every couple years. Thats just ludicrous.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> yeah winning the UFC HW title is nothing special...:sarcastic12:
> 
> im not talking about what he did years ago...he beat Ryo Kawamura recently who like i said is a solid C level.
> who would you rank ahead of Randleman at 8??? i agree he got worse and fighters like Babalu would beat him, but Abongo and Aaron Rosa ahead of Randleman?


What is you definition of recently? 2.5 years ago? How many active fighters in MMA haven't had a win in close to 3 years? Come on.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> *Abongo has finished 7 of his wins.* He lone 2 losses are vs. Rogers and Kyle...2 quality opponents. When was Randleman's last quality opponent? Shogun over 4 years ago.
> 
> Roger Gracie may be decent. How do we know? Randleman is so easy to sub and that is all of Gracie's game. He subb'd 3 guys that are BJJ experts by any means...how can anyone take anything from that?
> 
> Fact is Abongo actually wins some fights. And loses to better fighters. Randleman hasn't been in a relevant fight in almost 5 years.


oic so knocking out cans makes you a better fighter then somebody that takes cans to decisions. its funny that you ask when was randleman's last quality fight when all of his 10 losses came to +A and B level fighters (maybe except Whitehead) or at higher weight. and if you make fun of Randleman getting subbed by Roger Gracie you dont know much about grappling either.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

UFC86 said:


> oic so knocking out cans makes you a better fighter then somebody that takes cans to decisions. its funny that you ask when was randleman's last quality fight when all of his 10 losses came to +A and B level fighters (maybe except Whitehead) or at higher weight. and if you make fun of Randleman getting subbed by Roger Gracie you dont know much about grappling either.


You don't know how to read. Who said I was making fun of him for being subb'd? I'm saying Randleman is easy to sub...Gracie is a BJJ expert...you figure it out. Gracie can't be regarded as a B level fighter when he subb'd 3 guys with no BJJ.

I'm done arguing about this.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> You don't know how to read. Who said I was making fun of him for being subb'd? I'm saying Randleman is easy to sub...Gracie is a BJJ expert...you figure it out. Gracie can't be regarded as a B level fighter when he subb'd 3 guys with no BJJ.
> 
> I'm done arguing about this.


i can read. we cant argue about roger gracie and nedkov regardless because theyre undefeated prospects that we havent seen enough to know how good they really are at mma. but randleman is a former champion and great wrestler and he should be given respect. abongo, ovince etc havent earned the respect yet. with a few more decent wins i could see them bypassing randleman, but not YET. either way the SF 205 division is thin and i dont care much for places 8-10.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well places 8-10 should be given respect. This is especially applicable considering that Randleman is probably at number ten. Otherwise you are right in the Nedkov and Roger are new rising stars, but if they play their cards right they can become legitimate contenders in the world of MMA!:thumbsup:


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

Joe Riggs and Joey Villasenor were released by strikeforce and are now free agents. this is somewhat unfortunate because a possible rematch between riggs and nick diaz was intiguing, and though it was scheduled it didnt materialize. they fought 3 rounds in ufc which resulted in a decision for riggs, following a 4th round in the hospital where nick's brother nate intervined.

Joey Villasenor has expressed interest in the ufc (and he reminds of josh koscheck who he trains with) and maybe if the ufc make a show near the mexican border or in mexico the locals would be interested.

updated rankings
HW
1. *Fabricio Werdum *(beat Fedor)
2. *Fedor Emelianenko *(former #1)
3. Josh Barnett
4. Brett Rogers
5. Andrei Arlovski
6. Sergei Kharitonov
7. Tim Sylvia
8. Shane Del Rosario
9. Daniel Cormier
10. Chad Griggs 
others: Lavar Johnson

LHW
1. *Feijao* (C)
2. *Dan Henderson *(former UFC and Pride champion)
3. Mike Kyle
4. Mousasi (former champ)
5. King Mo (former champ)
6. Babalu (former champ)
7. Roger Gracie
8. Randleman
9. Abongo
10. Ovince St. Preux
others: Aaron Rosa, Antwain Britt

MW
1. *Jacare* (C, adcc champ)
2. Jorge Santiago
3. Tim Kennedy
4. Trevor Prangley
5. Luke Rockhold 
6. Melvin Manhoeff
7. Matt Lindland
8.Yancy Medeiros
9. Jesse Taylor
10. Benji Radach
others: Misaki (mostly in Japan)

WW
1. Paul Daley
2. Scott Smith
3. Siyar 
4. Evangelista Cyborg
5. Tyron Woodley
6. Nathan Coy
7. Tarrec Saffiedine
8. Bobby Voelker
9. Roger Bowling
10.Marius Zaromskis
others: Luis "Sapo" Santos

LW
1. *Melendez* (c)
2. *Thomson* (former champion)
3. *KJ Noons *(former Elite XC champion)
4. *JZ Calvan*
5. Justin Wilcox
6. Beerbohm
7. Vitor Ribeiro
8. Jorge Masvidal
9. Billy Evangelista
10. Mike Aina
others: Pat Healy


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

How does Strikeforce think that they can afford to release anybody when they have such a small talent pool?


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> How does Strikeforce think that they can afford to release anybody when they have such a small talent pool?


yeah theyre crazy doing that, they do everything right but do this. Diaz vs Riggs 2 would have been big, and Villasenor is a good fighter. they also gave up on kimbo who cant fight in the big leagues, but can draw huge for whatever reason.

ps thanks kantowrestler for bumping my threads casually, they get more hits:thumbsup:
ill give you more green


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, they basically threw Kimbo to the UFC. Also crazy would not be an accurate word, stupid is an accurate word. And you're welcome on repping your thread!:thumbsup:


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Why is Jorge Santiago the 2nd ranked MW in Strikeforce? He doesn't currently fight for Strikeforce. He fought for 1 night 3 years ago, winning their MW GP and has said he wants to return to the US, potentially to SF, but he hasn't signed a contract and he is still a Sengoku fighter, mainly because Strikeforce aren't willing to pay him what he believes he deserves. This isn't UFC86 taking rumours as facts again is it? Take Santiago out, and stick Robbie Lawler in the Top 10. Mayhem bumps up to 2nd.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

^^ That's not his ranking in SF. This is a favorites list put together by UFC86, not an official rankings list.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, when was the last time that Santiago even fought?


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> Why is Jorge Santiago the 2nd ranked MW in Strikeforce? He doesn't currently fight for Strikeforce. He fought for 1 night 3 years ago, winning their MW GP and has said he wants to return to the US, potentially to SF, but he hasn't signed a contract and he is still a Sengoku fighter, mainly because Strikeforce aren't willing to pay him what he believes he deserves. This isn't UFC86 taking rumours as facts again is it? Take Santiago out, and stick Robbie Lawler in the Top 10. Mayhem bumps up to 2nd.


i thought hes signing with strikeforce. you sure he rejected their offer?? it seemed perfect since they would allow him to continue fight in japan...


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Either way I have no idea what is going to happen. Santiago is a good fighter and I think he should sign with Strikeforce. However, things never go the way we hope!


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

strikeforce 30 card is going to have some more top 10 fighters
Fedor vs Antonio Silva
Jacare vs Robbie Lawler
Jason Miller vs Tim Kennedy
Herschell Walker will also have his 2nd fight.

now i think those matchups SUCK.
Antonio Silva is a great up and comer and Fedor steals souls (look what happened to Sylvia, Arlovski and Rogers after they fought Fedor). i think Fedor will win and completely ruin Antonio's career.
Jacare vs Robbie Lawler are two great fighters that i cant watch go against each other. Robbie Lawler's contract is nearing the end and he should go to ufc instead of fighting a bad matchup like Jacare (look what shields did to him).
Jason Miller and Kennedy are 1 match apiece, but miller had the last laugh and got nothing to prove fighting him. he is 1 win away from ufc contract, and could risk it all by losing to kennedy. horrible matchmaking as usual by strikeforce.

I dislike the matches not because they wont be good, but because the careers of antonio, lawler and mayhem will go down the drain if they lose, and im a fan of them.
hate me, red me, flame me it wouldnt bother me at all. but i really feel strongly about it so i had to say it.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

How do those match-ups suck?


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> How do those match-ups suck?


because according to mr. dana white, if a fighter loses a match outside of ufc (like fedor to werdum) automatically he sucks and has no place in ufc. that is unfortunately what mr. white will say after antonio silva, robbie lawler and mayhem lose. and it upsets me because im their fan.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well remember that Dana White isn't always accurate in his statements. Also according to that logic, almost all of the fighters in the UFC right now suck. His logic is contradictory!:thumbsdown:


----------



## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

updated rankings
HW
1. Fabricio Werdum (beat Fedor)
2. Alistair Overeem (champion)
3. Antonio Silva
4. Josh Barnett
5. Brett Rogers
6. Sergei Kharitonov
7. Shane Del Rosario
8. Daniel Cormier
9. Chad Griggs 
10. Bobby Lashley
others: Fedor and Arlovski contemplating retirement, Fedor belongs more to M-1 anyway

LHW
1. Feijao (C)
2. Dan Henderson (former UFC and Pride champion)
3. Mike Kyle
4. Mousasi (former champ)
5. King Mo (former champ)
6. Babalu (former champ)
7. Roger Gracie
8. Randleman
9. Abongo
10. Ovince St. Preux
others: Aaron Rosa, Antwain Britt

MW
1. Jacare (C, adcc champ)
2. Robbie lawler
3. Tim Kennedy
4. Trevor Prangley
5. Luke Rockhold 
6. Melvin Manhoeff
7. Matt Lindland
8.Yancy Medeiros
9. Jesse Taylor
10. Benji Radach
others: Misaki (mostly in Japan)

WW
1. Nick Diaz
2. Paul Daley
3. Scott Smith
4. Siyar 
5. Evangelista Cyborg
6. Tyron Woodley
7. Nathan Coy
8. Tarrec Saffiedine
9. Bobby Voelker
10. Roger Bowling
others: Luis "Sapo" Santos, Zaromskis possibly dropping

LW
1. Melendez (c)
2. Thomson (former champion)
3. KJ Noons (former Elite XC champion)
4. JZ Calvan
5. Justin Wilcox
6. Beerbohm
7. Vitor Ribeiro
8. Jorge Masvidal
9. Billy Evangelista
10. Mike Aina
others: Pat Healy


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I agree that if Fedor is still going to fight he probably belongs in M-1 Global. Strikeforce could probably give him fights to finish his contract but another loss would just put him on the backburner. Either way he should probably just call it!


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> I agree that if Fedor is still going to fight he probably belongs in M-1 Global. Strikeforce could probably give him fights to finish his contract but another loss would just put him on the backburner. Either way he should probably just call it!


sad
not so long ago considered p4p GOAT


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, was it like less than a year ago? Now he is facing retirement. This is sad but all things must come to an end unfortunately!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, was it like less than a year ago? Now he is facing retirement. This is sad but all things must come to an end unfortunately!


Fedor hasn't been the best in three years easily.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Fedor hasn't been the best in three years easily.


what the hell?
you must have been living under a rock. If not I feel sorry for you as do the rest of us mma fans.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, Fedor lost to Werdum less than a year ago. Before that he was considered the best in the world. He may not've fought the number two man in the world for a while but he was still number one!


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, Fedor lost to Werdum less than a year ago. Before that he was considered the best in the world. He may not've fought the number two man in the world for a while but he was still number one!


Exactly until you lose youre number 1. He was number 1 for a long time and just because he wasnt willing to fight in ufc doesnt mean anything changed, until the 2 losses of course.

He made a huge mistake to grapple with werdum and big foot.
But he is the best there was, the best there is, and the best there ever will be!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, that is definately true. He had the longest win streak in the sport. Not to mention how many titles he's won!


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, that is definately true. He had the longest win streak in the sport. Not to mention how many titles he's won!


He beat most of the UFC champions.
His wins include Big Nog a few times, Cro Cop, Mark Coleman, Randleman, Rogers, Arlovski, Sylvia etc


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

He beat UFC champions Arlovski, Sylvia, Coleman, Big Nog, and Randleman. Also beat one time Pancrease champion Semmy Schiltz. Not to mention Strikeforce champion Renato Sobral and others!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> Exactly until you lose youre number 1. He was number 1 for a long time and just because he wasnt willing to fight in ufc doesnt mean anything changed, until the 2 losses of course.
> 
> He made a huge mistake to grapple with werdum and big foot.
> But he is the best there was, the best there is, and the best there ever will be!


So if Anderson Silva fought middle of the road and has been fighters for the next three years, he would still be #1? That idea is simply ridiculous. Fedor hasn't been the top of division for quite some time. He avoided top competition like the plague. 

He didn't chose to grapple with Silva in the second round. He just couldn't get up, because he's too small. While Fedor's record will go down as one of the best of all time. His skill level will not. It's not that his skills have diminished, it's that mma passed him by. He never got the athletic skill, size, and speed to compete with this generation HWs. MMA is still young. I think Fedor will be looked at a lot along the same lines as Dempsey in boxing. He will be looked at as one of the all time greats, but like Dempsey not able to compete with those who came after him. (Louis, Marciano, Ali, etc.)



UFC86 said:


> He beat most of the UFC champions.
> His wins include Big Nog a few times, Cro Cop, Mark Coleman, Randleman, Rogers, Arlovski, Sylvia etc


Obviously Fedor didn't beat most of the UFC champions. He did beat some former, past their prime champions. There have been 14 UFC HW champions, including interim (since you included NOG I assume so are you). Fedor beat 5. All of them after their prime and release/leaving the UFC.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> So if Anderson Silva fought middle of the road and has been fighters for the next three years, he would still be #1? That idea is simply ridiculous. Fedor hasn't been the top of division for quite some time. He avoided top competition like the plague.
> 
> He didn't chose to grapple with Silva in the second round. He just couldn't get up, because he's too small. While Fedor's record will go down as one of the best of all time. His skill level will not. It's not that his skills have diminished, it's that mma passed him by. He never got the athletic skill, size, and speed to compete with this generation HWs. MMA is still young. I think Fedor will be looked at a lot along the same lines as Dempsey in boxing. He will be looked at as one of the all time greats, but like Dempsey not able to compete with those who came after him. (Louis, Marciano, Ali, etc.)
> 
> Obviously Fedor didn't beat most of the UFC champions. He did beat some former, past their prime champions. There have been 14 UFC HW champions, including interim (since you included NOG I assume so are you). Fedor beat 5. All of them after their prime and release/leaving the UFC.


Im trying to figure out which of your 2 posts on this page is less intelligent. Probably this one cause its more detailed.

So lets see, if Anderson beat Franklin, Henderson, Marquardt and Forrest Griffin, but then ended up fighting Patrick Cote, Thales Leites, and Demian Maia. Yeah if he did that he would definetly lose his top 10 status in the rankings, luckily he never fought those last 3 listed so hes still #1:sarcastic12: I will only listen to you from now on


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> Im trying to figure out which of your 2 posts on this page is less intelligent. Probably this one cause its more detailed.
> 
> So lets see, if Anderson beat Franklin, Henderson, Marquardt and Forrest Griffin, but then ended up fighting Patrick Cote, Thales Leites, and Demian Maia. Yeah if he did that he would definetly lose his top 10 status in the rankings, luckily he never fought those last 3 listed so hes still #1:sarcastic12: I will only listen to you from now on


Damian Maia is easily a top 10 MW and possibly top 5, so there's that. Also Silva then beat Sonnen, consensus #2 in the world, and he beat Belfort. I know your love for Fedor is clouding your vision, but he hasn't fought anyone good for a long time.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Damian Maia is easily a top 10 MW and possibly top 5, so there's that. Also Silva then beat Sonnen, consensus #2 in the world, and he beat Belfort. I know your love for Fedor is clouding your vision, but he hasn't fought anyone good for a long time.


so dancing around with Cote, Leites and Maia is considered the best? I also forgot to mention James Irvin.

yes Sylvia, Arlovski and Rogers were all considered top competition and dangerous at the time. He faced all the biggest threats offered to him outside the ufc and didnt duck anybody. And since you brought belfort guess what Werdum and Antonio Silva are also top 10 and would probably beat all the UFC fighters. Fedor just took a time off prior to it because he wanted to rest. stop being ufc fanboy.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> so dancing around with Cote, Leites and Maia is considered the best? I also forgot to mention James Irvin.
> 
> yes Sylvia, Arlovski and Rogers were all considered top competition and dangerous at the time. He faced all the biggest threats offered to him outside the ufc and didnt duck anybody. And since you brought belfort guess what Werdum and Antonio Silva are also top 10 and would probably beat all the UFC fighters. Fedor just took a time off prior to it because he wanted to rest. stop being ufc fanboy.


Dancing around that's cute. Did he win? Yes. Other than Yushin Okami, he's beaten every top MW in the world.

It's obvious to everyone who doesn't wear Fedor colored glasses that Arlovski and Sylvia weren't any good. Are you really trying to say that Werdum and Silva could beat any of the top guys in the UFC. We know for a fact Werdum can't beat JDS. He can't strike at all. Silva would get crushed by Velasquez, Lesnar, and Carwin easily. I think Mir probably beats him as well.


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## UFC86 (May 21, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Dancing around that's cute. Did he win? Yes. Other than Yushin Okami, he's beaten every top MW in the world.
> 
> It's obvious to everyone who doesn't wear Fedor colored glasses that Arlovski and Sylvia weren't any good. Are you really trying to say that Werdum and Silva could beat any of the top guys in the UFC. We know for a fact Werdum can't beat JDS. He can't strike at all. Silva would get crushed by Velasquez, Lesnar, and Carwin easily. I think Mir probably beats him as well.


youre just trolling now so im going to finish this conversation. yeah bro he completely dominated cote who was cut by ufc. did you see that vicious finish? another poor victim, send flowers to his grave. fedor also fought every hw outside the ufc. you could argue anderson is ducking lombard.

In retrospect sylvia and arlovski werent the best. But at that point in time sylvia arlovski and Rogers were the best outside the ufc. And yes Werdum and Antonio Silva would beat every fighter in UFC maybe except JDS. Werdum would knock you out.
Fedor #1


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

UFC86 said:


> youre just trolling now so im going to finish this conversation. yeah bro he completely dominated cote who was cut by ufc. did you see that vicious finish? another poor victim, send flowers to his grave. fedor also fought every hw outside the ufc. you could argue anderson is ducking lombard.
> 
> In retrospect sylvia and arlovski werent the best. But at that point in time sylvia arlovski and Rogers were the best outside the ufc. And yes Werdum and Antonio Silva would beat every fighter in UFC maybe except JDS. Werdum would knock you out.
> Fedor #1


Everyone who doesn't think Fedor walks on water is trolling? Yes I saw the finish, I was at the fight. It's interesting to me that in order to attack Anderson you are concerned with a fight over 2 years ago that he won. Rogers is a terrible fighter and was not the best outside the UFC. Rogers is a terrible fighter. Also why are we only concerned with fighters outside the UFC. Fedor could have just as easily fought in the UFC. You honestly think Werdum can beat Velasquez, Lesnar, or Carwin? You're dreaming. How does he get the fight to the ground. He can't take them down. Lesnar's strking isn't good but it's already light years ahead of Werdum's. Werdum could knock me out? Thanks for proving my point that your just a child screaming about how your favorite fighter is the best, no matter how many times he loses.


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## SonOfZion (Feb 14, 2011)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Everyone who doesn't think Fedor walks on water is trolling? Yes I saw the finish, I was at the fight. It's interesting to me that in order to attack Anderson you are concerned with a fight over 2 years ago that he won. Rogers is a terrible fighter and was not the best outside the UFC. Rogers is a terrible fighter. Also why are we only concerned with fighters outside the UFC. Fedor could have just as easily fought in the UFC. You honestly think Werdum can beat Velasquez, Lesnar, or Carwin? You're dreaming. How does he get the fight to the ground. He can't take them down. Lesnar's strking isn't good but it's already light years ahead of Werdum's. Werdum could knock me out? Thanks for proving my point that your just a child screaming about how your favorite fighter is the best, no matter how many times he loses.


 i agree with most of this but Lesnars striking is IN NO WAY above Werdum, nevermind lightyears.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

SonOfZion said:


> i agree with most of this but Lesnars striking is IN NO WAY above Werdum, nevermind lightyears.


Alright maybe I was a little hyperbolic, but Werdum's striking is pretty bad.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Both men are bad strikers. But you have to remember that when Lesnar connects you will more than likely go down. Exception Cain!


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