# Team Fedor Emelianenko: �Brock Lesnar is a Pure Product of the UFC



## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

*Team Fedor Emelianenko: “Brock Lesnar is a Pure Product of the UFC*



> “What does he have, six fights in MMA? He’s a pure product of the UFC, who met a real fighter and he lost.”


Link

Well at least their saying Cain is a decent fighter


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

He is the a pure product of the UFC, who has beaten top competition for the last 2 years. They will just keep throwing jabs at the UFC since Dana kept bashing them.


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## Dan0 (Aug 22, 2008)

I also was disturbed that the biggest champion of the biggest MMA org was 5-1.
9-0 is better but not by very much.
At least Cain is way more respectable and classy.


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## Steroid Steve (Oct 1, 2010)

Bknmax said:


> Link
> 
> Well at least their saying Cain is a decent fighter


That is a major discredit to all the other good fighters that Brock fought. It wasn't like Brock fought UFC HW scrubs. He was thrown in the fire against the best. Any other UFC newcomer, moreover MMA newcomer, wouldn't have a chance against the guys Brock faced. Most of these guys have been training in MMA much longer than Brock has. He may be a "product" of the UFC, but he has delivered for the most part.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

You know what I don't even care about Fedor anymore. Werdum beating him and the fact that his management seems content to duck any and all relevant fights is just embarrassing. The fact he is saying he wants to fight Overeem and the reem is ducking him despite the fact ever single source indicates that it it is M-1 ducking the fight. The fact that they wanted Olympic style drug testing for Overeem but got pissed when Overeem suggested that was fine as long as it wasn't just him that was subjected to it. The politics of Fedor fights have really turned me against him as a fighter.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> You know what I don't even care about Fedor anymore. Werdum beating him and the fact that his management seems content to duck any and all relevant fights is just embarrassing. The fact he is saying he wants to fight Overeem and the reem is ducking him despite the fact ever single source indicates that it it is M-1 ducking the fight. The fact that they wanted Olympic style drug testing for Overeem but got pissed when Overeem suggested that was fine as long as it wasn't just him that was subjected to it. The politics of Fedor fights have really turned me against him as a fighter.


What Source indicates Fedor is ducking anyone? When Fedor came in to SF where was Oveerem? Fighting no body in K1.And now when Fedor literally is doing nothing in LA where is Oveerem ? Fighting no one in K1.Fedor should not be calling people out he is the greatest fighter of all time fighters should be honored fighting him.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

LOL fedor, I remember that guy from five years ago. How's strikeforce workin out for ya?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> What Source indicates Fedor is ducking anyone? When Fedor came in to SF where was Oveerem? Fighting no body in K1.And now when Fedor literally is doing nothing in LA where is Oveerem ? Fighting no one in K1.Fedor should not be calling people out he is the greatest fighter of all time fighters should be honored fighting him.


Scott Coker, M-1 saying they wanted Werdum until after Overeem had made other commitments then they came out saying they wanted Overeem. Overeem himself has openly called on M-1 on it. Where was Fedor when Rogers fought Overeem? Why didn't Fedor fight BigFoot? Oh yeah M-1 had to "renegotiate" I have never seen a contract renegotiated so many times in my life. When Fedor is done as a fighter I will laugh when he looks back at how much time he wasted while M-1 used him a some kind of leverage to try and build there company at his expense.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

What do you expect from shaddy russian businessmen!

Getting unbelievably tiring hearing these guys talking absolute shit.
Brock has had 4 fights with top heavyweights in his career... Thats abotu the same amount as Fedor!!


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## nazzac (Aug 29, 2010)

If Fedor had beaten Werdum he would have got Overeem. It's his fault.


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

Bknmax said:


> What Source indicates Fedor is ducking anyone? When Fedor came in to SF where was Oveerem? Fighting no body in K1.And now when Fedor literally is doing nothing in LA where is Oveerem ? Fighting no one in K1.Fedor should not be calling people out he is the greatest fighter of all time fighters should be honored fighting him.


They should be honored to fight him? I think that you're going a little over board. He is just a human being like the rest of us. I don't care how successful he has been, a lot of these guys have sacrificed just as much if not more than he has. We all have our stories.

Just because he has a few more wins and titles under his resume, it doesn't mean these other guys who have put their all into their careers should look up to him and act like being in the same ring or octagon as him is the greatest thing they've ever accomplished.




Toxic said:


> Scott Coker, M-1 saying they wanted Werdum until after Overeem had made other commitments then they came out saying they wanted Overeem. Overeem himself has openly called on M-1 on it. Where was Fedor when Rogers fought Overeem? Why didn't Fedor fight BigFoot? Oh yeah M-1 had to "renegotiate" I have never seen a contract renegotiated so many times in my life. When Fedor is done as a fighter I will laugh when he looks back at how much time he wasted while M-1 used him a some kind of leverage to try and build there company at his expense.


It wouldn't surprise me if he were to be finished with fighting sooner rather than later.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

nazzac said:


> If Fedor had beaten Werdum he would have got Overeem. It's his fault.


He could have had Overeem despite losing but Fedor.M-1 didn't want the fight,at least not till after Overeem had been announced for the K-1 GP then of course they wanted the fight.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> He could have had Overeem despite losing but Fedor.M-1 didn't want the fight,at least not till after Overeem had been announced for the K-1 GP then of course they wanted the fight.


You actually think that Fedor is ducking a nobody like Oveerem?


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> You actually think that Fedor is ducking a nobody like Oveerem?


It isn't rocket science! Overeem called out Fedor... no response.
Overeem announces he is fighting in K1 GP - next day M1 global issue the challenge to Overeem.

Now we could call it a coincidence but it's pretty clear what happened!


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## Dakota? (Dec 27, 2009)

Anybody who calls Overeem a nobody has got to be trolling....


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> You actually think that Fedor is ducking a nobody like Oveerem?


I don't think, it has became pretty clear. When Fedor first signed to SF I thought that Overeem was ducking him but its became clear that its the other way around.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

Its sad and annoying but i would be very surprised if we saw Fedor fight Barnett or Overeem in SF. M1 obviosuly want the Werdum rematch to try and lift Fedor's stock a bit ut i'm sure they'll happily sit around and watch him fight Bigfoot and herschal walker just to keep his record in tact.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Dakota? said:


> Anybody who calls Overeem a nobody has got to be trolling....


Name one good HW that Overeem beat in the past 10 years then shut your mouth thanks.

Im not going to argue with you Toxic just because i know that we will see Fedor vs Oveerem,Barnett and Silva,we will see who was ducking who The HW Pride Champion or the scrub that lost to Badr Hari.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Dakota? said:


> Anybody who calls Overeem a nobody has got to be trolling....


Indeed. He's England's greatest Heavyweight, just demolished Brett Rogers in MMA before heading back to K-1 and knocking some more dudes out. The guy is as legit as they come. Just wish Fedor/M-1 would just step-up and get the fight signed. Stop ******* around with contract re-negotiations, drug testing, and the usual M-1 bullshit. Step up and fight FFS. I wanna see that fight so bad. Strikefarce must be pissed. They've got a surefire epic fight there, and M-1 are intent on not letting it happen. So frustrating, but it's not a surprise, following Fedor's career for the last 4/5 years has been frustrating as hell.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Danm2501 said:


> Indeed. He's England's greatest Heavyweight, just demolished Brett Rogers in MMA before heading back to K-1 and knocking some more dudes out. The guy is as legit as they come. Just wish Fedor/M-1 would just step-up and get the fight signed. Stop ******* around with contract re-negotiations, drug testing, and the usual M-1 bullshit. Step up and fight FFS. I wanna see that fight so bad. Strikefarce must be pissed. They've got a surefire epic fight there, and M-1 are intent on not letting it happen. So frustrating, but it's not a surprise, following Fedor's career for the last 4/5 years has been frustrating as hell.



He's Legit because he beat Brett and lost to good fighters in K-1?


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm not a Overeem believer yet, he has hardly beat anyone at HW.

But also, it is a laugher just to look at Fedor's last 5-7 opponents. Hmm....who has been his best opponent in that time? Tough one between Tim Sylvia and the guy that just won a crap decision and has only beat 1 decent fighter in his life...whats his name? Brett Rogers? Oh yea, lets not forget, the 185 lber, Matt Linland...I mean, wow what a wiN!

SFs HWs suck, because they have fought no one wortha a crap in teh last handful of years. Werdum has the only real good win out of any of them in the last few years. SF is a fruad, and so are their HWs who beat up on average fighters at best.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> He's Legit because he beat Brett and lost to good fighters in K-1?


He has a win over Badr Hari... you can't fluke that! 



> He's England's greatest Heavyweight


:thumb02: Hounslow's finest!


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

Dakota? said:


> Anybody who calls Overeem a nobody has got to be trolling....


Calling The Great Can Crusher a nobody is going a bit far, I'll admit?:thumb02: 

Not a fan of Brock but saying he hasn't fought decent competition since Cain is a complete joke. How many rookies can get wins over Shane Carwin, Randy Couture, Frank Mir, and Heath Herring!


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

He beat Peter Aerts and Badr Hari. The way he beat Rogers was just nasty. He completely dominated him. Chucked him across the cage like he was nothing and then smashed him. Alistair Overeem is legit, and I think a fight with Fedor would prove that. No-one in the Heavyweight division could handle Alistair on the feet, and he has a more than solid grappling base too. He's big, strong, athletic, powerful, has world class kickboxing and dangerous submissions. He's one of the top HW fighters in the world, and I'd LOVE to see him step in with Fedor.



edlavis88 said:


> :thumb02: Hounslow's finest!


Haha, indeed. It takes a lot to become England's best HW. He has some stiff competition in Mostapha Al-Turk, Rob Broughton and Neil Wain!


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Name one good HW that Overeem beat in the past 10 years then shut your mouth thanks.
> 
> Im not going to argue with you Toxic just because i know that we will see Fedor vs Oveerem,Barnett and Silva,we will see who was ducking who The HW Pride Champion or the scrub that lost to Badr Hari.


I will bet money that all 3 of those fights never take place. We will get one of them. Maybe 2 but I doubt it. Fedor takes 8 months to a year between fights always. so he will be 35 before he fights Werdum again, with the political games M-1 has been playing your probably looking at a good year after that for his next fight so then he is 36. Since I think he will retire or M-1 will part ways with SF or drive them under before Fedor is 39. I doubt we ever see all 3 fights.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

Bknmax if Fedor fights Overeem, Barnett and Silva before he leaves SF i will personally get a plane to Brooklyn, find your house and bow down before you. I am THAT confident it wont happen!


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

edlavis88 said:


> Bknmax if Fedor fights Overeem, Barnett and Silva before he leaves SF i will personally get a plane to Brooklyn, find your house and bow down before you. I am THAT confident it wont happen!


I'll meet you there.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> I'll meet you there.


Lol ok how much do you want to bet that Fedor vs Oveerem will happen before he retires ?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Lol ok how much do you want to bet that Fedor vs Oveerem will happen before he retires ?


You know what I won't bet you money but I know it will never happen. Problem with betting is I will forget about it by the time Fedor retires but if SF announces Fedor/Overeem in a couple months you would remember. 

It aint gonna happen though I will give you 10 million points if it does.


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## ahartleyvu (Aug 18, 2010)

Let's see... Fedor doesn't fight in the top fighting organization and has barely fought the toughest competition in that organization.

Win vs Brett Rogers.. (11-2; only has one decent win vs Arlovski)
Win vs Andrei Arlovski... (15-8; lost last 3 matches)
Win vs Tim Sylvia... (27-6; former champ but I think we've all seen how good he is, not very)
Win vs Mark Hunt... (5-7; record speaks for itself)
Win vs Mark Coleman.. (16-10; lost 3 of last 4)
Win vs Cro Cop... solid win
Win vs Noguiera... solid win
Win vs Heath Herring... eeh.. decent win but Herring has no wins vs top competition

That just about sums it up. Fedor is impressive and I think he is a top tier heavyweight, but until he fights in the UFC & beats top level competition, he really can't talk much smack IMO.


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## Fedornumber1! (Jun 18, 2008)

*Big talk* _Small cock_

At least Brock fights the best fighters


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

ahartleyvu said:


> Let's see... Fedor doesn't fight in the top fighting organization and has barely fought the toughest competition in that organization.
> 
> Win vs Brett Rogers.. (11-2; only has one decent win vs Arlovski)
> Win vs Andrei Arlovski... (15-8; lost last 3 matches)
> ...


You consider Cro Cop a solid win but not Sylvia? Tim Sylvia had damn near beat Nog right before that fight. Sylvia was once a skilled fighter who used his length well. Don't discredit him in the Fedor fight because he lost his soul that night buried himself in cheesecake and is now a walking embarrassment.


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## ahartleyvu (Aug 18, 2010)

Toxic said:


> You consider Cro Cop a solid win but not Sylvia? Tim Sylvia had damn near beat Nog right before that fight. Sylvia was once a skilled fighter who used his length well. Don't discredit him in the Fedor fight because he lost his soul that night buried himself in cheesecake and is now a walking embarrassment.


The Cro Cop win was in 2005 (16-2 at the time) which was my reasoning for saying it was a solid win.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Sylvia was 30-3 at the time.


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## ahartleyvu (Aug 18, 2010)

Idk maybe I'm just distracted by how bad Sylvia has looked in his losses. Even so, do you consider a win vs Sylvia a great win? At best, I'll say its a decent win, certainly isn't top level competition, in my opinion.

edit - he was actually 24-4 going into the Fedor fight... with a bunch of wins vs low level talent... although same goes for Cro Cop.. he picked up good wins post Fedor


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

ahartleyvu said:


> Idk maybe I'm just distracted by how bad Sylvia has looked in his losses. Even so, do you consider a win vs Sylvia a great win? At best, I'll say its a decent win, certainly isn't top level competition, in my opinion.
> 
> edit - he was actually 24-4 going into the Fedor fight... with a bunch of wins vs low level talent... although same goes for Cro Cop.. he picked up good wins post Fedor


Low level talent? Arlovski, Monson (one of the best submision grapplers in the sport) and Ricco Rodriguez. I don't think you understand that you know how people are hyping Velasquez right now? Ricco had even more hype around him at that point. 
Sylvia at that time was still a solid win. Beating Sylvia after the Fedor fight is meaningless.


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

ahartleyvu said:


> Let's see... Fedor doesn't fight in the top fighting organization and has barely fought the toughest competition in that organization.
> 
> Win vs Brett Rogers.. (11-2; only has one decent win vs Arlovski)
> *Win vs Andrei Arlovski... (15-8; lost last 3 matches)*
> ...


How come Arlovski isn't a solid win? He lost his last three matches but that all started with Fedor! Coming into the Fedor fight Arlovski was on 5 fight win streak! One of those wins being Roy Nelson!


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## Fedornumber1! (Jun 18, 2008)

Bonnar426 said:


> How come Arlovski isn't a solid win? He lost his last three matches but that all started with Fedor! Coming into the Fedor fight Arlovski was on 5 fight win streak! One of those wins being Roy Nelson!


Win over nelson in elite xc...they stood the fight up when Nelson wa in side mount


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Bonnar426 said:


> How come Arlovski isn't a solid win? He lost his last three matches but that all started with Fedor! Coming into the Fedor fight Arlovski was on 5 fight win streak! One of those wins being Roy Nelson!


Wasn't Andrei the second HW in the world when he fought Fedor? 

Speaking of the Overeem discussion earlier, i really hope Alistair defeat's a legit top HW convincingly so those who still don't know that his way better than the 205, dehydrated pride verison, get a reality check.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

I thought Brett Rogers was a legitimate HW when he was fighting Fedor? Funny how he suddenly turns into a bum when it's Overeem that beats him. Overeem didn't just beat Rogers either, he destroyed him. It was ugly to watch, Alistair just dominated him. Threw him around like a ragdoll before putting him away. It's only a matter of time before Alistair Overeem gets the credit he deserves, this version of Overeem is ******* scary.


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

Toxic said:


> You know what I don't even care about Fedor anymore. Werdum beating him and the fact that his management seems content to duck any and all relevant fights is just embarrassing. The fact he is saying he wants to fight Overeem and the reem is ducking him despite the fact ever single source indicates that it it is M-1 ducking the fight. The fact that they wanted Olympic style drug testing for Overeem but got pissed when Overeem suggested that was fine as long as it wasn't just him that was subjected to it. The politics of Fedor fights have really turned me against him as a fighter.


Well put, not much I got to add to that.

As for M-1 Bashing Brock - When Lesnar came to ufc, he made it clear that he isn't there to make a name for himself by trashing weak cans. He made it clear from the beginning that he wants legit high level opponents, and seriously who the hell fights a guy like Mir in his second mma fight, a guy like Herring in 3rd fight and a guy like Randy in 4th fight? Lesnar might be inexperienced, but during those fights he has already fought more relevant and higher ranked guys than Fedor has fought since Mirko 5 years ago.

Sure ufc hypes Lesnar up and sells him, because after all it is also a business, but this "Brock is an ufc product" is such a hilarious comment coming from a guy (well not the guy himself, but his team) that hasn't fought nothing but unranked cans and ufc rejects in last 5 years until one of them finally finished him in bit over 60 seconds.

Nothing but respect for Fedor and his skills, but I can't help but call him an idiot. A intelligent guy would not have that army of clowns representing him, scamming him and most importantly preventing him from fighting on fights that actually matter. It just makes no sense... if he wants to fight more than once a year and in an organization like ufc, he'd fire them. If he wants to make fuckload of money instead... well he would fire them in that case too. No matter how you look at it, he is being robbed.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Danm2501 said:


> I thought Brett Rogers was a legitimate HW when he was fighting Fedor? Funny how he suddenly turns into a bum when it's Overeem that beats him. Overeem didn't just beat Rogers either, he destroyed him. It was ugly to watch, Alistair just dominated him. Threw him around like a ragdoll before putting him away. It's only a matter of time before Alistair Overeem gets the credit he deserves, this version of Overeem is ******* scary.


I thought Rogers was legit to, he didn't turn into a bum IMO when Overeem rag dolled him. IMO he turned into a bum when he gassed out and went to a decision with F****ing Warpath, you know the guy who used to get cornered by Tank Abbott.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Toxic said:


> I thought Rogers was legit to, he didn't turn into a bum IMO when Overeem rag dolled him. IMO he turned into a bum when he gassed out and went to a decision with F****ing Warpath, you know the guy who used to get cornered by Tank Abbott.


I knew they were scheduled to fight but forgot all about that. Warpath isn't much but at least Brett got the victory which he really needed.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

There is no team Fedor! There is Fedor Emelianenko, a great MMA Fighter and there is M-1, a brand that is runned by a leech, Finkelstein.

I've said it over and over again.

I really hope Fedor wakes up one morning and says: "What the f****k am i doing with this leech?!" Then he leaves M-1, after punching Finkelstein in the face.


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

Diokhan said:


> Well put, not much I got to add to that.
> 
> As for M-1 Bashing Brock - When Lesnar came to ufc, he made it clear that he isn't there to make a name for himself by trashing weak cans. He made it clear from the beginning that he wants legit high level opponents, and seriously who the hell fights a guy like Mir in his second mma fight, a guy like Herring in 3rd fight and a guy like Randy in 4th fight? Lesnar might be inexperienced, but during those fights he has already fought more relevant and higher ranked guys than Fedor has fought since Mirko 5 years ago.
> 
> ...


Well put, for what ever reasons there are and I put his management team as the #1 reason, Fedor is becoming more and more irrelavent with each fight he takes and each fight he ducks. I'd be really surprised if he beats any of the top 5 in StrikeForce let alone the UFC. I'm not saying he can't, I'm just saying I'd be really surprised.


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

This isn't a fair statement at all. Brock beat big-time heavyweights in Carwin, Mir and even Couture, and dominated a tough customer in Herring — who, if I recall, gave Fedor one of the better fights he's had.

Sure, he was fast-tracked to a title shot much more quickly than he deserved — I even complained about the UFC signing him so soon in his career — but to suggest he's not a real fighter is to dismiss the ability of those men he has beaten.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

I don't think Fedor's camp should be talking trash about anyone considering the last fight on their record is a sub loss within 70 seconds :thumbsdown:


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

ahartleyvu said:


> Let's see... Fedor doesn't fight in the top fighting organization and has barely fought the toughest competition in that organization.
> 
> Win vs Brett Rogers.. (11-2; only has one decent win vs Arlovski)
> Win vs Andrei Arlovski... (15-8; lost last 3 matches)
> ...


Wait a minute! The win/loss numbers your giving us are current! Mark Hunt was 5-2 when he fought Fedor! He was considered a promising up and comer back then. He even beat one of your "legit wins" Mirko Cro Cop! Tim Sylvia was 24-5 when he fought Fedor! His recent losses during that time was against Big Nog and Randy Couture! Brett Rogers was undefeated and was coming off a pretty big win against Andrei Arlovski, who was still considered a top ten HW at the time. 

I'm sorry dude but your list is completely biased! Your judging all these fighters for the performances today and not when they fought Fedor.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

Fedor has beaten some tough guys and has had some good wins but he has also fought A LOT of cans with records like 12-10. Guys in the UFC haven't had the luxury of fighting people like Hong-Man Choi, a 37 year old Gary Goodridge or Chris Haseman to pad out their records!! 
M1 can't use records as a way of getting at fighters when half of Fedor's record is completely meaningless!


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> I thought Brett Rogers was a legitimate HW when he was fighting Fedor? Funny how he suddenly turns into a bum when it's Overeem that beats him. Overeem didn't just beat Rogers either, he destroyed him. It was ugly to watch, Alistair just dominated him. Threw him around like a ragdoll before putting him away. It's only a matter of time before Alistair Overeem gets the credit he deserves, this version of Overeem is ******* scary.


Rogers was never a legit top teir HW. How can a guy have 1 solid win in his career even crack the top 10? He just fought to a crap decision over a no-name fighter. 

People just wanted a reason to get excited.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Diokhan said:


> As for M-1 Bashing Brock - When Lesnar came to ufc, he made it clear that he isn't there to make a name for himself by trashing weak cans. He made it clear from the beginning that he wants legit high level opponents, and seriously who the hell fights a guy like Mir in his second mma fight, a guy like Herring in 3rd fight and a guy like Randy in 4th fight? *Lesnar might be inexperienced, but during those fights he has already fought more relevant and higher ranked guys than Fedor has fought since Mirko 5 years ago.*
> 
> Sure ufc hypes Lesnar up and sells him, because after all it is also a business, but this "Brock is an ufc product" is such a hilarious comment coming from a guy (well not the guy himself, but his team) that hasn't fought nothing but unranked cans and ufc rejects in last 5 years until one of them finally finished him in bit over 60 seconds.
> 
> Nothing but respect for Fedor and his skills, but I can't help but call him an idiot. A intelligent guy would not have that army of clowns representing him, scamming him and most importantly preventing him from fighting on fights that actually matter. It just makes no sense... if he wants to fight more than once a year and in an organization like ufc, he'd fire them. If he wants to make fuckload of money instead... well he would fire them in that case too. No matter how you look at it, he is being robbed.


:thumbsup:

Lesnar hasn't taken on 185lbers, hasn't fought guys being KO'd by an over the hill boxer, and hasn't fought the Man Choi's of the world.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Toxic said:


> I thought Rogers was legit to, he didn't turn into a bum IMO when Overeem rag dolled him. IMO he turned into a bum when he gassed out and went to a decision with F****ing Warpath, you know the guy who used to get cornered by Tank Abbott.


Name a couple things that Rogers has done in his career to make you think he was legit at any point?

Interested to hear what ya got.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Name a couple things that Rogers has done in his career to make you think he was legit at any point?
> 
> Interested to hear what ya got.


KO'd Arlovski in under a minute. Looking back at it and what he has done since Arlovski was obviously past his best - but it was still a dominating win over a former UFC HW champ and you'd forgive people for thinking he was legit at that time.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Name a couple things that Rogers has done in his career to make you think he was legit at any point?
> 
> Interested to hear what ya got.


He Ko'd Arlovski went 10 and 0 including a win over Abongo Humphrey who was fairly a fairly heralded prospect at the time. Hell lets be honest he even looked good against Fedor right up to when he got KTFO. The Overeem fight was the first time he really had to pick on a guy his own size and a ***** in the armor started to appear. Until then had looked quite impressive.


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

I swear these days its so easy to talk shit about Fedor. The man has more legit wins than Lesnar. Comparing their guys like Nog, Cro Cop, Hunt, AA and Sylvia now is somewhat biased and childish. Compare them at the time they fought Fedor. 
Nog-1st PRIDE HW Champ
Cro Cop- PRIDE 2006 Openweight GP Winner
Hunt- Wins over Wandy and Cro Cop
Arloski-Former UFC HW Champ (on 5 fight win streak prior to Fedor fight)
Sylvia-Former 2 time UFC HW Champ
Bobby Hoffman- had wins over Overeem,Rodriguez and Herring before fighting Fedor
Kevin Randleman-Former UFC HW Champ 
Mark Coleman-Former UFC HW Champ and PRIDE 2000 Openweight GP Winner
Babalu Sobral-Former IFC and SF LHW Champ (give Shogun his 1st loss)
Compare this to-
Frank Mir- Former HW Champ
Shane Carwin-Former Interim Champ
Coture- Former HW and LHW Champ of the UFC
See, when you look at it like this, Lesnar's resume doesnt look all that nice compared to Fedor's.
Impressive? To an extent yes. But not something to be throwing around and saying Fedor hasn't fought nobodys. 
The Man's a legend regardless, but his management leaves alot to be disired. M-1 is runing this man and making him look like a bad guy. 
And another that people seem to overlook is the fact that Sergei Kharitonov
is also in Strikeforce. You know that guy that destroyed Overeem in his 2nd HW bout? I mean yea he got submitted by Monson, but that not something to be ashamed of. The man has better grappling creds than Brock.


----------



## kickstar (Nov 12, 2009)

Fedor is a legand..and he will always be a legend...


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

limba said:


> There is no team Fedor! There is Fedor Emelianenko, a great MMA Fighter and there is M-1, a brand that is runned by a leech, Finkelstein.
> 
> I've said it over and over again.
> 
> I really hope Fedor wakes up one morning and says: "What the f****k am i doing with this leech?!" Then he leaves M-1, after punching Finkelstein in the face.


But Fedor is part owner of M-1.

Honestly guys I seem to read this notion alot; the idea that Fedor is this clueless, simple-minded, fighter who is being taken advantage of.

Perhaps what is really going on is that Fedor knows exactly what is happening. In fact, I personally believe Fedor is a deciding factor in many of the decisions that M-1 makes, the ones you all blame on Finklestein.

Perhaps Finklestein is just a well placed decoy that seems oh so evil he just must be. But I think it is a lot more likely that Fedor recognizes he is getting a little older, recognizes there is a new breed, and recognizes the game.

I think Fedor knows damn well that he could make more money in the UFC. I think he knows damn well that people are slowly losing respect for him, but I also think he knows people will lose respect for him far faster if he comes to the UFC and loses a few quick fights (not that he necessarily would, Fedor is still awesome).

I think Fedor is an active part in the business aspect. Anyone who has heard the man talk knows he is an intelligent person. I think Fedor is just as interested in promoting M-1 and russian fighters as Finklestein is.

Let me ask everyone who thinks Fedor is weak little puppet this: what does Finklestein directly gain by all the negotiating, m-1 co promoting bullshit, and "making" fedor duck fights? The same thing Fedor gains: longevity in Fedors career and hope for future expansion. So what makes you all think Fedor doesn't understand what is happening? Just because Finklestein is a weasel doesn't mean Fedor doesn't approve of his suggestions.

When Fedor is too old to fight how much you wanna bet he is still at Finklesteins side running M-1 with him?

Many of you also seem to think Fedor cares about being the best in the world. I think Fedor feels blessed to have ever been considered the best in the world. There is a big difference.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Toxic said:


> He Ko'd Arlovski went 10 and 0 including a win over Abongo Humphrey who was fairly a fairly heralded prospect at the time. Hell lets be honest he even looked good against Fedor right up to when he got KTFO. The Overeem fight was the first time he really had to pick on a guy his own size and a ***** in the armor started to appear. Until then had looked quite impressive.


So beating 1 top 10 fighter, a guy that as we can see now is in a funk, and is not the same fighter he was a handful of years ago...and looking good for 2 minutes of another fight before getting KTFO, is now a resume to be an elite HW in the world?

Hmm....learn something new every day.

Oh yea and beating basically a LHW fighter that has ZERO credible wins, when you are 6'4 and 265 is nothing to get too excited about.

Pretty low standards for fighters now a days, when it should actually be higher standards...since the sport has grown steadily.

I don't buy it and never will. It is all about who you beat, just as it is in any sport. Being 10-0 vs. Joe Smith from the local gym doesn't have anything to do with competing and being considered one of the best handful of fighters in the world at HW.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

No one is bashing Fedor's career. So it might be a tip to actually read and comprehend what people are saying.

All anyone is saying is his last few years in the sport, has been against less then championship caliber fighters. Not something to be proud of, when you were/are considered the best in the world.

He USED to fight the best of the best. He no longer does, and hasn't for years. That is a fact that is undisputable.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

jonnyg4508 said:


> So beating 1 top 10 fighter, a guy that as we can see now is in a funk, and is not the same fighter he was a handful of years ago...and looking good for 2 minutes of another fight before getting KTFO, is now a resume to be an elite HW in the world?
> 
> Hmm....learn something new every day.
> 
> ...


Every statement you made is based on what we now know. What is your point? I think everyone see`s that Roger`s is not an elite fighter but he was a hell of a prospect when he fought Fedor. I simply stated he had shown enough potential up until his last fight that the losses to Fedor and Overeem alone were not enough for me to write him off completely. Like I said what sounds like a close decision with Warpath is. But maybe you should read more so you understand the context of a post before tearing into somebody about one?


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## Steroid Steve (Oct 1, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> No one is bashing Fedor's career. So it might be a tip to actually read and comprehend what people are saying.
> 
> All anyone is saying is his last few years in the sport, has been against less then championship caliber fighters. Not something to be proud of, when you were/are considered the best in the world.
> 
> He USED to fight the best of the best. He no longer does, and hasn't for years. That is a fact that is undisputable.


I agree.


----------



## Can.Opener (Apr 8, 2009)

It's a shame that one of the greatest fighters of all time surrounds himself with a bunch of retards.

Hopefully the Overeem fight happens sometime in the next year and Finkelchtein can slink back into his box.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

pshh fedor this, overeem that, dana white hit me with a wiffle ball bat.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Every statement you made is based on what we now know. What is your point? I think everyone see`s that Roger`s is not an elite fighter but he was a hell of a prospect when he fought Fedor. I simply stated he had shown enough potential up until his last fight that the losses to Fedor and Overeem alone were not enough for me to write him off completely. Like I said what sounds like a close decision with Warpath is. But maybe you should read more so you understand the context of a post before tearing into somebody about one?


Not sure how...only having 1 credible win...stating that he beat a 205er with no credible wins....is stating things we now know. We knew it then.


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## Ares Caesar (Aug 13, 2008)

jonnyg4508 said:


> No one is bashing Fedor's career. So it might be a tip to actually read and comprehend what people are saying.
> 
> *All anyone is saying is his last few years in the sport, has been against less then championship caliber fighters. Not something to be proud of, when you were/are considered the best in the world.*
> 
> He USED to fight the best of the best. He no longer does, and hasn't for years. That is a fact that is undisputable.


Wrong.

http://blogs.chron.com/fighting/2008/08/august_mma_rankings_lesnar_bre.html
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/10/27/647399/bloody-elbow-october-mma-m
http://www.mmaontap.com/mma/entry/mma-on-tap-top-10-february-15-2008
http://squabbles.com/2009/05/top-ten-heavyweights-in-mma/

Arlovski, Sylvia, and Werdum were ALL top 10 ranked fighters, when Fedor fought them. Simply because they arent ranked NOW(Werdum aside), doesnt mean he doesnt fight top competition. They WERE the best/highest ranked competition at the time, simply because after getting tooled by Fedor and falling out of the rankings since you cannot discredit his victories.

No matter what you think of Rogers either, he was ranked in the top 10 by many when Fedor fought him as well, and simply because he loses 1 fight to another top 10 fighter its as if he's a scrub. BS.

Either you're total UFC nuthuggers, or you're just Fedor haters. If you're the former, then you should realize that the guys Fedor crushed were two former UFC heavyweight champs. And if you're the latter, then nothing more need be said.

This is all aside the point though, and you're clearly very short sighted.

Anyway, moving onto the actual topic.

I dont think its totally fair to discredit Lesnar, sure he's got a lot of hype behind him, but he's shown SOME fighting ability, and either he lost to a GREAT fighter, or the UFC is simply that poor in talent as he beat a portion of their highest ranked fighters. Its like everyone loves to twist things one way or another to suit their point of view.

Lesnar is legit, Cain Velasquez is legit, Fedor is legit. Given how things have gone down in the heavyweight division lately, I dont think its fair to start making so many grand assumptions from a single fight, or even a couple fights. In the last year alone the rankings have significantly been altered, and I dont think they're done changing either. When you're dealing with a division that has the kind of KO power that the HW division has (strikeforce, UFC, and bellator) a single mistake can add a loss to a fighters record. 

Using MMA math also is very horrible, nearly every guy now in the HW division has a loss, and the couple that dont havent hardly fought enough overall fights to claim they're undeniably the best... lets see in 2-4 more fights what they're records look like after they fight some of the other top guys. 

But whatever, some people just love to look at ONLY the "now" as if thats all that matters and everything prior is just past history and totally irrelevant. Things change, but not quite as fast as some people seem to think they do.


----------



## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> So beating 1 top 10 fighter, a guy that as we can see now is in a funk, and is not the same fighter he was a handful of years ago...and looking good for 2 minutes of another fight before getting KTFO, is now a resume to be an elite HW in the world?
> 
> Hmm....learn something new every day.
> 
> ...












Is this you? Hindsight is a beautiful thing.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Steroid Steve said:


> That is a major discredit to all the other good fighters that Brock fought. It wasn't like Brock fought UFC HW scrubs.* He was thrown in the fire against the best. Any other UFC newcomer, moreover MMA newcomer, wouldn't have a chance against the guys Brock faced.* Most of these guys have been training in MMA much longer than Brock has. He may be a "product" of the UFC, but he has delivered for the most part.


Cain would of steam rolled through all of Brocks opponents if given the chance. JDS would of also steam rolled through them.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> Cain would of steam rolled through all of Brocks opponents if given the chance. JDS would of also steam rolled through them.


and brock wouldnt have steam rolled through cains and JDS competition?:sarcastic12:


----------



## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

ACTAFOOL said:


> and brock wouldnt have steam rolled through cains and JDS competition?:sarcastic12:


Good point.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Cain would of steam rolled through all of Brocks opponents if given the chance. JDS would of also steam rolled through them.


I don't know if that is a fair statement to make. Sure JDS stuffed Nelson but to use that to suggest Randy would be unable to clinch up and take him down especially considering Randy is one of the best in the business at setting a game plan and sticking to it is foolish. We have definitely not seen enough from JDS to justify that argument one way or the other.


----------



## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Ape City said:


> But *Fedor is part owner of M-1.*
> Honestly guys I seem to read this notion alot; the idea that Fedor is this clueless, simple-minded, fighter who is being taken advantage of.
> 
> Perhaps what is really going on is that Fedor knows exactly what is happening. In fact, I personally believe Fedor is a deciding factor in many of the decisions that M-1 makes, the ones you all blame on Finklestein.
> ...


Quoted for truth. 

Fedor is part owner of M-1. Why would he fight for his own company's competition? Its literally the dumbest idea a businessman can make. Fedor isn't a moron, he actually seems pretty intelligent.

The second part I bolded, I only did so because it sounds quite enlightened!:thumb02:


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Fedor never fights in the UFC and hasn't fought relevant fighters in years and he retains his stigma even after getting submitted almost within the first minute of the first round by Werdum...

Brock comes to the MMA scene willing to fight the best the UFC throws at him and does so with a winning record despite only having one MMA fight before joining the UFC. He loses the UFC Heavyweight championship belt in the first round against someone that many people are considering a new breed of heavyweight fighter and the cockroaches come out celebrating his fall from gracce.

What Royce did in the early UFC was impressive. We all recognize he isn't relevant in MMA these days (as a competitor). What Fedor has done was impressive. The sport moves forward and evolves. Fighters are better trained and conditioned than every before... Brock is at least making the effort to evolve and stay relevant while M-1 markets last years model...

If Fedor were to come to the UFC I honestly think it would go as well for him as it did for Royce to come back and fight Hughes...

I like both Fedor and Brock and I am a fan of both. I don't hear Fedor talking all this trash. I hear M-1 and the Fedor fans talking all this trash. Obviously Fedor isn't going to 'put up' so that whole camp needs to 'shut up'. I'd rather see Brock competing and losing than Fedor not fight relevant fights.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Fieos said:


> What Royce did in the early UFC was impressive. We all recognize he isn't relevant in MMA these days (as a competitor). What Fedor has done was impressive. The sport moves forward and evolves. Fighters are better trained and conditioned than every before... Brock is at least making the effort to evolve and stay relevant while M-1 markets last years model...
> 
> If Fedor were to come to the UFC I honestly think it would go as well for him as it did for Royce to come back and fight Hughes...


Fedor is not Royce,Nog,or Cro Cop he is Fedor don't compare him to other fighters because there's about 3 decent fighters out there with ***** and Judo Backgrounds.If Fedor came to the UFC and JDS,Carwin Brock,Cain got cought with the same right that Rogers did you will see all of them on the floor knocked out.All of Fedor's fights are relevant and your opinion means nothing,i would of rather seen Fedor fight a scrub Like Carwin then a Black belt Werdum.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Fedor is not Royce,Nog,or Cro Cop he is Fedor don't compare him to other fighters because there's about 3 decent fighters out there with ***** and Judo Backgrounds.If Fedor came to the UFC and JDS,Carwin Brock,Cain got cought with the same right that Rogers did you will see all of them on the floor knocked out.*All of Fedor's fights are relevant* and *your opinion means nothing*,*i would of rather seen Fedor fight a scrub Like Carwin then a Black belt Werdum*.


I can count on one hand all of the fights Fedor has had that are still relevant. 

Why is your opinion worth more than his? Because he disagrees with you? 

Carwin is a scrub? He has bad cardio, but he's far from a scrub. And you'd rather Fedor fight a fighter you consider his lesser, rather than a challenging opponnet? Why? So he can beef up his resume a little more?


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## demoman993 (Apr 8, 2007)

Toxic said:


> You know what I don't even care about Fedor anymore. Werdum beating him and the fact that his management seems content to duck any and all relevant fights is just embarrassing. The fact he is saying he wants to fight Overeem and the reem is ducking him despite the fact ever single source indicates that it it is M-1 ducking the fight. The fact that they wanted Olympic style drug testing for Overeem but got pissed when Overeem suggested that was fine as long as it wasn't just him that was subjected to it. The politics of Fedor fights have really turned me against him as a fighter.


I feel similar to this right now. When fedor was a quiet Russian who didn't talk smack and just kicked some ass, I really enjoyed him. Now he has these shyster management clowns flapping their lips constantly and we rarely get to see him fight. I've kinda lost my "new car" infatuation with fedor now. I just wanna see him fight and kick some ass without his stooges doing all of his talking. I'm still a fan but have had enough of the bs drama out of his camp.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Squirrelfighter said:


> I can count on one hand all of the fights Fedor has had that are still relevant.
> 
> Why is your opinion worth more than his? Because he disagrees with you?
> 
> Carwin is a scrub? He has bad cardio, but he's far from a scrub. And you'd rather Fedor fight a fighter you consider his lesser, rather than a challenging opponnet? Why? So he can beef up his resume a little more?


No so you would see the difference in skill between a Black belt Bjj and an over rated Carwin who gases faster then any fighter Fedor fought.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Fedor is not Royce,Nog,or Cro Cop he is Fedor don't compare him to other fighters because there's about 3 decent fighters out there with ***** and Judo Backgrounds.If Fedor came to the UFC and JDS,Carwin Brock,Cain got cought with the same right that Rogers did you will see all of them on the floor knocked out.All of Fedor's fights are relevant and your opinion means nothing,i would of rather seen Fedor fight a scrub Like Carwin then a Black belt Werdum.


Not sure where to start with this one...

Judo and *****... lets put him up there with the greats like Karo Parisyan and Andre Arlovski I guess... I agree that a heavy right hand knocks people out; James Toney proved that... (just not in MMA). Saying Fedor has one punch KO power is fine; he's proven that. I'm going to say he has a puncher's chance at best against most of the people you mentioned so it works out.

Carwin isn't a scrub and Fedor lost to Werdum which is probably why you'd rather see Fedor fight Carwin.

Fedor's fights lately aren't relevant to the hype that keeps him at the forefront of P4P lists. I don't think Fedor cares.. Hell, the pay is good and the work is indoors. I don't have problems with Fedor; I like Fedor. I am annoyed by M-1 and his moronic fanboy base (not naming names)and their antics at perpetuating Fedor akin to the Chuck Norris humor rampant on the web. It is cute, but not really the 'meat and potatoes' of relevance in MMA standings.

I appreciate that since my opinion differs from your that it has no value to you. It only reaffirms my post and my point.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> No so you would see the difference in skill between a Black belt Bjj and an over rated Carwin who gases faster then any fighter Fedor fought.


Carwin is overrated? He's finished every opponent in the first round except one, whom he _ALMOST _finished in the first round, in his entire career...

There's no question there's a big difference between a BJJ blackbelt and Carwin. Since Carwin is a Div II wrestling champion and not a JJ guy, there's a significant difference. 

I'm so frustrated with this tired old line, "Fedor _can _beat anyone! He's _beaten _the best!"

beaten-past tense
can-present tense
There is a significant difference.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Ares Caesar said:


> Wrong.
> 
> http://blogs.chron.com/fighting/2008/08/august_mma_rankings_lesnar_bre.html
> http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/10/27/647399/bloody-elbow-october-mma-m
> ...


As one of your links gives this little blurb about Fedor.

_"The world’s top pound-for-pound fighter and the perennial top heavyweight is hanging on to the top spot by a thread. Emelianenko submitted Hong Man Choi on New Year’s Eve and in the process added yet another sub-par fighter to the list of opponents he has faced over the past two years. Will a potential fight against Randy Couture solidify the Russian’s elite status? Only time will tell. Previous ranking:_"

bahahaha:thumb02: So he beat A fading AA. I don't give 2 shits what Sylvia was ranked. His last 2 decent wins was againts Brandon Vera and Jeff Monson, Monson being a full 4 years ago. Slyvia owned the division when the UFC had no HW division, they had to bring back 43 year old Randy to come and drop him on his head.

You won't see Lesnar, Randy, Cain, JDS fight the Man Choi's, the Matt Linlands, the crap that Fedor fought for a few years straight. Oh wow then he comes back vs. the stellar Tim Zombie Sylvia, a guy that was finally exposed himself. Fedor has yet to fight a "new breed" HW fighter. His credible wins in the last few years is over fading vets of the sport who haven't evolved with the times. 

And Rogers is a tire changer. He is the HW equivalent to Houston Alexander.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

ACTAFOOL said:


> and brock wouldnt have steam rolled through cains and JDS competition?:sarcastic12:


No, no he wouldnt.

I can see Brock having a very hard time with Ben Rothwell, probably a tough fight with Kongo. I can see him losing to both Werdum and Nog, so no i dont think Brock would steam roll his way through their competition.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> No, no he wouldnt.
> 
> I can see Brock having a very hard time with Ben Rothwell, probably a tough fight with Kongo. I can see him losing to both Werdum and Nog, so no i dont think Brock would steam roll his way through their competition.


Seriously?

All four of those guys listed would get dumped on their head and beaten into the canvas. Lesnar basically proved he solved the submission defense issues he had in his rematch with Mir.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Fieos said:


> Seriously?
> 
> All four of those guys listed would get dumped on their head and beaten into the canvas. Lesnar basically proved he solved the submission defense issues he had in his rematch with Mir.


Yes seriously. Rothwell is one of if not THE toughest HW in the UFC division. He isnt going to get TKO'd easily like Randy or Mir, hes as tough as they come. His stirking is leagues ahead of Brocks. All he has to do is weather the early storm and punch Brock hard in the face. Kongo is also notoriously hard to finish and very tough, both would be tough fights for Brock. 

As for Werdum, he aint no Frank Mir. Same with Nog.


----------



## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> No, no he wouldnt.
> 
> I can see Brock having a very hard time with Ben Rothwell, probably a tough fight with Kongo. I can see him losing to both Werdum and Nog, so no i dont think Brock would steam roll his way through their competition.


I see Brock vs Kongo/Rothwell going the same way as it went when they fought Cain, only imo Kongo would lose by TKO. And I don't see Werdum/Nog subbing Brock, unless he makes a stupid mistake like he did with Mir in the first fight.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Leed said:


> I see Brock vs Kongo/Rothwell going the same way as it went when they fought Cain, only imo Kongo would lose by TKO. And I don't see Werdum/Nog subbing Brock, unless he makes a stupid mistake like he did with Mir in the first fight.


Brock would not come close, not even damn close to dominating rothwell and kongo the way cain did. Cain is a different animal. Both of those guys would give Brock tough fights, im sure of it.

Who said Werdum and Nog have to sub Brock? Their striking is also leagues ahead of Brocks and they are both lethal from their backs and in guard. They are both nightmare match ups for Brock.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Yes seriously. Rothwell is one of if not THE toughest HW in the UFC division. He isnt going to get TKO'd easily like Randy or Mir, hes as tough as they come. His stirking is leagues ahead of Brocks. All he has to do is weather the early storm and punch Brock hard in the face. Kongo is also notoriously hard to finish and very tough, both would be tough fights for Brock.
> 
> As for Werdum, he aint no Frank Mir. Same with Nog.


Rothwell and Kongo are both very vulnerable to takedowns and control on the ground. Nog doesn't have the durability he once had. I think Werdum would have the best chance of the four but I think we'd see Wrestling + Submission defense prove superior to BJJ.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Fieos said:


> Rothwell and Kongo are both very vulnerable to takedowns and control on the ground. Nog doesn't have the durability he once had. I think Werdum would have the best chance of the four but I think we'd see Wrestling + Submission defense prove superior to BJJ.


Im not saying Kongo or Big Ben would beat Brock, well id probably put money on Ben, but they would give him tough fights.

Since when has Kongo been vulnerable to take downs? Where exactly did this myth arise from that Kongo has terrible wrestling?! Kongo has always had solid wrestling and TDD, hes finished a lot of his fights via take downs and GNP. As soon as cain completley dominates kongo via wrestling, apparently, Kongo has terrible wrestling :sarcastic12:

Now that Brocks weaknesses have been fully exposed (inability to take a punch, cardio), i give these guys a fairly good shot at beating Brock.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> No, no he wouldnt.
> 
> I can see Brock having a very hard time with Ben Rothwell, probably a tough fight with Kongo. I can see him losing to both Werdum and Nog, so no i dont think Brock would steam roll his way through their competition.


Problem with Kongo and Rothwell? HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

All credibility lost.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Problem with Kongo and Rothwell? HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
> 
> All credibility lost.


Yes, because Rothwell isnt one of the toughest HW's in the division and Kongo isnt notoriously hard to finish :sarcastic12:

Open your eyes son.


----------



## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Im not saying Kongo or Big Ben would beat Brock, well id probably put money on Ben, but they would give him tough fights.
> 
> Since when has Kongo been vulnerable to take downs? Where exactly did this myth arise from that Kongo has terrible wrestling?! Kongo has always had solid wrestling and TDD, hes finished a lot of his fights via take downs and GNP. As soon as cain completley dominates kongo via wrestling, apparently, Kongo has terrible wrestling :sarcastic12:
> 
> Now that Brocks weaknesses have been fully exposed (inability to take a punch, cardio), i give these guys a fairly good shot at beating Brock.


I think we'll have a chance to see these fights so I'm curious how it will play out. I think Brock's cardio is fine; I agree his weakness is punch reaction. Hopefully this loss will have him training boxing but going in with a wrestler's gameplan for future fights. I hope he learns from his losses. His boxing pedigree didn't get him into the UFC and I don't want to see him become the next Gonzaga.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Im not saying Kongo or Big Ben would beat Brock, well id probably put money on Ben, but they would give him tough fights.
> 
> Since when has Kongo been vulnerable to take downs? Where exactly did this myth arise from that Kongo has terrible wrestling?! Kongo has always had solid wrestling and TDD, hes finished a lot of his fights via take downs and GNP. As soon as cain completley dominates kongo via wrestling, apparently, Kongo has terrible wrestling :sarcastic12:
> 
> Now that Brocks weaknesses have been fully exposed (inability to take a punch, cardio), i give these guys a fairly good shot at beating Brock.


Kongo is one of the bottom HWs the UFC has. He was taken down at will by Cain and Herring. Outside of a different version of CC, Kongo is a product of looks and hype. The guy is a bum.


----------



## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Oh sweet Jebis, I knew it was gonna happen. 

The "Lesnar is gonna dominate his way back to the top," 
"Nuh uh, nuh uh!" battle has begun!


----------



## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Brock would not come close, not even damn close to dominating rothwell and kongo the way cain did. Cain is a different animal. Both of those guys would give Brock tough fights, im sure of it.
> 
> Who said Werdum and Nog have to sub Brock? Their striking is also leagues ahead of Brocks and they are both lethal from their backs and in guard. They are both nightmare match ups for Brock.


Why not? Even though Cain proved that he can handle Brock's wrestling, which I guess says that it's better, Brock still has very good wrestling and Kongo has proven to have almost zero TDD and ground skills. I'm not sure about Rothwell, because I don't know much about him, but seeing how Cain ragdolled him, I'm pretty sure Rothwell won't be able to stop Brock's bullrush. (I could be wrong here though)
Nog is far from his prime, and I'd bet Brock would put Nog on his ass and keep him there, and would succesfully defend from submissions. Nog has good BJJ, but he is far from a god, when it goes to the mat. I would even say Mir has better guard then Nog, so Nog is far from a nightmare match-up.
From all of the four examples, imo Werdum has the best chance of beating Brock, but again, I wouldn't be so sure as you are.



Squirrelfighter said:


> Oh sweet Jebis, I knew it was gonna happen.
> 
> The "Lesnar is gonna dominate his way back to the top,"
> "Nuh uh, nuh uh!" battle has begun!


As long as it's a reasonable discussion, why not? Isn't that what this forum is about?


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Yes, because Rothwell isnt one of the toughest HW's in the division and Kongo isnt notoriously hard to finish :sarcastic12:
> 
> Open your eyes son.


You open your eyes. Both guys would be taken down and beat on for the whole fight. Go look at teh Herring-Lesnar fight. Lesnar doesn't need a finish, although he would finish either. Kongo has ZERO ground game and would just lay under Brock like a dead fish. 

Rothwell may be a tad tougher to take down, but Brock would get him there. Rothwell and Kongo are no Cain on the feet. Kongo couldn't even beat a wild looping puncher his last fight, and had to grab shorts every 2 minutes. The guy is a joke.

I am no Brock fan.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Leed said:


> As long as it's a reasonable discussion, why not? Isn't that what this forum is about?


It always starts out that way but give it time my friend...give it time!:thumb02:


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Squirrelfighter said:


> I'm so frustrated with this tired old line, "Fedor _can _beat anyone! He's _beaten _the best!"
> 
> beaten-past tense
> can-present tense
> There is a significant difference.


The truth is, outside of Overeem, Fedor has fought the best outside of the UFC these past couple years. Dana has done an amazing job making people believe the best fighters are in the UFC. In the past 3 years Fedor has fought Lindland, Tim Sylvia, Andre Arlovski, Brett Rogers and Werdum...

Lindland is an olympic wrestler. Tim Sylvia a former UFC HW champion, with his only losses(outside of getting caught by mercer in 9 seconds...) are to credible opponents. Arlovski is also a former UFC HW Champion who had a solid win streak before clashing with Fedor. Brett Rogers was 10-0 before meeting Fedor, with a KO win over Arlovski who was coming off a loss to Fedor, but also an impressive win streak before that. Werdum has also fought a lot of notable opponents(Big Nog, Arlovski, beat Gonzaga twice, beat Brandon Vera...) Point I'm trying to make is Fedor is fighting the best he can outside of the organization, the only guy he hasn't fought yet is Overeem, and he'll fight him soon I bet. 

Also, Werdum is no UFC reject. Whilst he was in the UFC the guy fought Arlovski, Gonzaga, Vera, and JDS...he lost to Arlovski via Decision, and lost to JDS via KO, 2-2 in the UFC and they want to call him a reject. He fought notable opponents, especially at the time he fought them. Tim Sylvia was given the boot from the UFC after a fight of the night with big nog for the HW title...Arlovski was given the boot from the UFC after he was on a 3 fight win streak, wins over Marcio Cruz, Werdum, and O'Brien...he then went into affliction and Knocked out Ben Rothwell, then went into the IFL to knockout Roy Nelson...then he butted heads with Fedor. 

I think the UFC has done a wonderful job making people think the best fighters are in their organization, that's about it. Fedor has been fighting the best outside of the organization, Overeem is the only guy he hasn't fought, but when you look at Overeem's resume it's not very impressive, he's the one who hasn't been fighting top competition, his best win since his most recent loss is Brett Rogers IMO.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Lesnar gets beat up by one of the best fighters in teh world, and now Rothwell and Kongo would giv ehim a hard time. Unbelievable. 

If Lesnar was able to take Cain down (although not keep him there) there is no doubt in the world that he would take Rothwell or Kongo down...at will.

People are crazy now a days. Kongo should be cut from the UFC. His striking is the most overrated in teh UFC. When he isn't beating up on Al-Turk, he is getting owned on the feet by Frank Mir.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

ptw said:


> The truth is, outside of Overeem, Fedor has fought the best outside of the UFC these past couple years. Dana has done an amazing job making people believe the best fighters are in the UFC. In the past 3 years Fedor has fought Lindland, Tim Sylvia, Andre Arlovski, Brett Rogers and Werdum...
> 
> Lindland is an olympic wrestler. Tim Sylvia a former UFC HW champion, with his only losses(outside of getting caught by mercer in 9 seconds...) are to credible opponents. Arlovski is also a former UFC HW Champion who had a solid win streak before clashing with Fedor. Brett Rogers was 10-0 before meeting Fedor, with a KO win over Arlovski who was coming off a loss to Fedor, but also an impressive win streak before that. Werdum has also fought a lot of notable opponents(Big Nog, Arlovski, beat Gonzaga twice, beat Brandon Vera...) Point I'm trying to make is Fedor is fighting the best he can outside of the organization, the only guy he hasn't fought yet is Overeem, and he'll fight him soon I bet.
> 
> ...


Come on man. You are going to say Linland is a legit guy to be fighting? When was the last time he was even ranked? He is 185lber...So if Cain, Lesnar, or JDS were to fight Chael Sonnen, it would be a legit fight? That is seriously what you are saying here.

Fedor has fought ALMOST all he can in SF. Also he has fought all the cans in Japan. 

The point is, how does the "Champ" (Overeem) not fight Fedor? You bring Fedor over to SF, and claim you have the best HW...then you can't even make a fight with "the best HW" and your current Champ? How sad is that? Fedor has been in SF for a couple years, and hasn't even taken on the organizations best fighter....:confused03:

Lets not even mention Fedor not fighting in the UFC, he hasn't even fought the best guy from the promotion he chose to sign to....that is pretty telling.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

ptw said:


> The truth is, outside of Overeem, Fedor has fought the best outside of the UFC these past couple years. Dana has done an amazing job making people believe the best fighters are in the UFC. In the past 3 years Fedor has fought Lindland, Tim Sylvia, Andre Arlovski, Brett Rogers and Werdum...
> 
> *Lindland* is an olympic wrestler. Tim Sylvia a former UFC HW champion, with his only losses(outside of getting caught by mercer in 9 seconds...) are to credible opponents. Arlovski is also a former UFC HW Champion who had a solid win streak before clashing with Fedor. Brett Rogers was 10-0 before meeting Fedor, with a KO win over Arlovski who was coming off a loss to Fedor, but also an impressive win streak before that. Werdum has also fought a lot of notable opponents(Big Nog, Arlovski, beat Gonzaga twice, beat Brandon Vera...) Point I'm trying to make is Fedor is fighting the best he can outside of the organization, the only guy he hasn't fought yet is Overeem, and he'll fight him soon I bet.
> 
> ...


Those four opponents are the only ranked fighters he's beaten since the fall of Pride. There's no question he's a skilled figher, but no longer the best, by a wide margin. 

90% of the best fighters in the world fight in the UFC or have. To think otherwise is silly IMO. All four of the fighters listed are former UFC fighters. For whatever reason, they aren't competitive anymore, Werdum (who is very much still competitive) not withstanding. Strikeforce is the second ranked Org by a longshot, and they are ranked that low for an important reason.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> You open your eyes. Both guys would be taken down and beat on for the whole fight. Go look at teh Herring-Lesnar fight. Lesnar doesn't need a finish, although he would finish either. Kongo has ZERO ground game and would just lay under Brock like a dead fish.
> 
> Rothwell may be a tad tougher to take down, but Brock would get him there. Rothwell and Kongo are no Cain on the feet. Kongo couldn't even beat a wild looping puncher his last fight, and had to grab shorts every 2 minutes. The guy is a joke.
> 
> I am no Brock fan.


I tried to ignore your posts after reading you say that Heath Herring out grappled Kongo? What fight were you watching? Then i read your post history and see how you said Brocks cardio is good because he went "3 hard rounds with Herring". lol.

Brock has major holes in his striking defense, MAJOR HOLES. It isnt like these guys are facing a wretler who has decent stand up and can set up his take downs with strikes....Kongo and Rothwell are both vastly superior strikers to Brock, all they have to do is connect, Brock can not take a punch to save his life.

Kongo and Rothwell are no Cain on the feet? You mean Kongo, the guy who dropped Velasquez 3 times by hitting him square on the jaw. Kongo, a world Muay Thai champion?


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## dario03 (Oct 8, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> No, no he wouldnt.
> 
> I can see Brock having a very hard time with Ben Rothwell, probably a tough fight with Kongo. I can see him losing to both Werdum and Nog, so no i dont think Brock would steam roll his way through their competition.


Nog and Werdum I can understand (submission from no where) but how do you think Kongo and Rothwell would give Lesnar a hard time? 
I would pick Brock to beat all of them because none of them would be able to stop the take down and Brock would probably fight like he did against Mir in the second fight. So if he isn't leaving openings and taking risks it would be hard to grab a submission.

Edit: I must of not refreshed my page, I didn't see the 2 pages after the quoted post.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

*Lindland* - Natural Middleweight
*Tim Sylvia* - Lost his fire as soon as he got the belt and was never an elite athlete. Last year's model fighter.
*Arlovski* - Talented fighter with a glass chin and bad game plans that should be fighting at light heavyweight
*Brett Rodgers* - Brawler with some promise
*Werdum* - Solid fighter


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Kongo and Rothwell are no Cain on the feet? You mean Kongo, the guy who dropped Velasquez 3 times by hitting him square on the jaw. Kongo, a world Muay Thai champion?


Yea the same guy that couldn't even put away Travis Browne, a guy running straight at him with looping wild punches. Yea that guy. He hit Cain with all he had and Cain still took him down when he wanted...whats that say about Kongo? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheick_Kongo

You pick out some stellar wins of Kongo's career. He faces a tough fighter and loses. He got dropped by Frank Mir in a stand up fight.

Wow he tooled DanEvenson and Al Turk...way to go Kongo, you are a stud. There are plenty of Muay Thai greats that can't fight in MMA. I believe Alexander Gustafsson tooled one on the same card Kongo put a grabbing of the shorts fest on. Way to go you amazing Mauy Thai strikers. It is MMA, not a Muay Thai match.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Fieos said:


> *Lindland* - Natural Middleweight
> *Tim Sylvia* - Lost his fire as soon as he got the belt and was never an elite athlete. Last year's model fighter.
> *Arlovski* - Talented fighter with a glass chin and bad game plans that should be fighting at light heavyweight
> *Brett Rodgers* - Brawler with some promise
> *Werdum* - Solid fighter


You can nitpick at opponents weaknesses for just about any fighter out there. Lets take Brock for example;

Frank Mir - Horrible wrestling, decent enough stand up, wilts under pressure.

Randy Couture - 46 year old natural LHW who is way past it

Shane Carwin - Big power, terrible technique, slow as hell, rubbish cardio

Heath Herring - Pride gate keeper.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Yea the same guy that couldn't even put away Travis Browne, a guy running straight at him with looping wild punches. Yea that guy. He hit Cain with all he had and Cain still took him down when he wanted...whats that say about Kongo?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheick_Kongo
> 
> ...


LOL. I say Kongo and Rothwell would be tough fights for Brock and you throw a fit and turn this into a completely different argument about Muay Thai fighters......

Hit Cain with all he had? He tagged Cain going back wards with straight jabs.....

Im not saying Kongo is some world beater. Im saying hes a tough fight for any one out there, whether you want to admit or not, he has good stand up (much better than Brocks) under rated TDD and wrestling and hes tough as nails.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> You can nitpick at opponents weaknesses for just about any fighter out there. Lets take Brock for example;
> 
> Frank Mir - Horrible wrestling, decent enough stand up, wilts under pressure.
> 
> ...


Holy crap we need to drink beer, hang out, and watch fights!


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## Johnni G (Dec 2, 2009)

Haters gon' hate


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> LOL. I say Kongo and Rothwell would be tough fights for Brock and you throw a fit and turn this into a completely different argument about Muay Thai fighters......
> 
> Hit Cain with all he had? He tagged Cain going back wards with straight jabs.....
> 
> Im not saying Kongo is some world beater. Im saying hes a tough fight for any one out there, whether you want to admit or not, he has good stand up (much better than Brocks) under rated TDD and wrestling and hes tough as nails.


Who is turning it into a Muay Thai discussion? You brought up the fact that Kongo is a decorated Muay Thai fighter. I just brought up points as to why that has nothing to do with being a good MMA fighter.

Kongo has never been impressive. All hype.

Yea he is a tough fight for anyone. He was a tough fight for Travis Browne. If he couldn't handle Browne running at him in a striking match, how is he going to handle Brock running at him in a wrestling/GnP match?


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

Brock was not carried in any way. he was put up there quicker than he deserved, but not carried.

Fedor has been negotiating contracts for a long time now. It's a shame that MMA fans made such a legend out of him. He could truly be the greatest ever if he fought more and squabbled over money less.


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## Inkdot (Jun 15, 2009)

Ughh not another one of these discussions...

Whenever blatant nuthuggers get into an argument it goes like this: Brock sucks, Fedor sucks, Overeem sucks, anyone whos ever fought any of these fighters suck.

Reality check, none of the above suck. Please stop this fighter bashing it's disrespectful.

And stop calling Overeem a nobody!

Thanks :thumb02:


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Overeem has the potential to be the "Baddest Man on the Planet" if he'd make the fights happen.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Inkdot said:


> Ughh not another one of these discussions...
> 
> Whenever blatant nuthuggers get into an argument it goes like this: Brock sucks, Fedor sucks, Overeem sucks, anyone whos ever fought any of these fighters suck.
> 
> ...


I won't bash anyone anymore. but i do like to state facts.

Overeem hasn't fought good competition at HW. Fact.
Fedor has fought many cans in his life. Fact.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> You can nitpick at opponents weaknesses for just about any fighter out there. Lets take Brock for example;
> 
> Frank Mir - Horrible wrestling, decent enough stand up, wilts under pressure.
> 
> ...


No one is claiming that Brock is the #1 p4p fighter and greatest HW in the world though. Fact of the matter is that Fedor's comeptition was B level ever since he fought CC the last time. I have no problem with that. If he and his management know he is declining but still want to fight, do it! I know the man probably LOVES fighting. But when you do it, DON'T claim you're the biggest, best fighter on Earth while there are guys like Silva, GSP and BJ fighting MUCH higher compeition. Andre was on a win streak when they fought, yes, but look who it was against. Roy Nelson, Ben Rothwell, Jake O'Brien, Marcio Cruz and, the one elite fighter out of all of them, Werdum. Werdum, O'Brien and Cruz were cut from the UFC. Rothwell was destroyed by the current champ. Roy was destroyed by the next challenger. I hardly call them top competition outside Werdum. 

Sylvia was never that good IMO. He was a tall fighter who knew how to jab well. 

Rogers was under both of them.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

TraMaI said:


> No one is claiming that Brock is the #1 p4p fighter and greatest HW in the world though. Fact of the matter is that Fedor's comeptition was B level ever since he fought CC the last time. I have no problem with that. If he and his management know he is declining but still want to fight, do it! I know the man probably LOVES fighting. But when you do it, DON'T claim you're the biggest, best fighter on Earth while there are guys like Silva, GSP and BJ fighting MUCH higher compeition. Andre was on a win streak when they fought, yes, but look who it was against. Roy Nelson, Ben Rothwell, Jake O'Brien, Marcio Cruz and, the one elite fighter out of all of them, Werdum. Werdum, O'Brien and Cruz were cut from the UFC. Rothwell was destroyed by the current champ. Roy was destroyed by the next challenger. I hardly call them top competition outside Werdum.
> 
> Sylvia was never that good IMO. He was a tall fighter who knew how to jab well.
> 
> Rogers was under both of them.


Agree with this completely. If you are supposed to bet the best fighter, you better be fighting the best fighters in the world. Not freak shows in Japan.

I would give him MUCH more credit for the Sylvia win if Randy hadn't already beat that ass at like 43 years old. If Randy at that age can kick Sylvia's ass, then why wouldn't the "best fighter in the world" do the same?


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> No one is claiming that Brock is the #1 p4p fighter and greatest HW in the world though. Fact of the matter is that Fedor's comeptition was B level ever since he fought CC the last time. I have no problem with that. If he and his management know he is declining but still want to fight, do it! I know the man probably LOVES fighting. But when you do it, DON'T claim you're the biggest, best fighter on Earth while there are guys like Silva, GSP and BJ fighting MUCH higher compeition. Andre was on a win streak when they fought, yes, but look who it was against. Roy Nelson, Ben Rothwell, Jake O'Brien, Marcio Cruz and, the one elite fighter out of all of them, Werdum. Werdum, O'Brien and Cruz were cut from the UFC. Rothwell was destroyed by the current champ. Roy was destroyed by the next challenger. I hardly call them top competition outside Werdum.
> 
> Sylvia was never that good IMO. He was a tall fighter who knew how to jab well.
> 
> Rogers was under both of them.



I really hate the Werdum UFC reject talk. I know you didnt say it, but i can see thats what you're implying. Werdum was cut by the UFC because he wasnt good enough right? Mean while the UFC HW division has fighters like Stefan Struve, McCorkle and sign the likes of James Toney and Kimbo Slice.... Yet Werdum, obviously the UFC cut him because he wasnt good enough. I dont know what reason Werdum was cut, but it sure as hell wasnt because he wasnt a damn good fighter.

You mention Ben Rothwell and Roy Nelson as if they arnt really worthy opponents, yet who is it JDS just fought which granted him a title shot? Who was one fight away from fighting for the UFC HW title? Yes, Roy Nelson.

Who the hell has Cain fought? Big Nog? Kongo? Rothwell?

I only made that post just to show that you can nitpick at any fighters opponents, i wasnt suggesting Fedor is the best in the world. I think Overeem would beat him convincingly to tell you the truth.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

If I recall correctly Werdum wasn't a reject. He lost against JDS (I think) and contract negotiations fell through. It wasn't like he was given his walking papers.


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## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

Bknmax said:


> What Source indicates Fedor is ducking anyone? When Fedor came in to SF where was Oveerem? Fighting no body in K1.And now when Fedor literally is doing nothing in LA where is Oveerem ? Fighting no one in K1.Fedor should not be calling people out he is the greatest fighter of all time fighters should be honored fighting him.






*@ around 8:00* .. he gets into the Fedor ducking him discussion..

Overeem himself has stated this a few times in interviews, and fights.. 

The reason Overeem went to K1 to fight, is because he destroyed all potential HW contenders in Strikeforce..

He had no opponents left.. and he needs to make a living. . so he went to K1 to do so..

Now there are opponents in Strikeforce.. thus his return..

But all the meanwhile.. he has been trying to set up a fight with Fedor since Pride.. I tend to believe Overeem due to his record.. it's a list of who's who in MMA .. lol
he fights anyone.. anytime.. 

With that said.. i completely agree.. Fedor has also established himself as a TRUE Champion.. and anyone should be HONORED to fight him! 

I love both fighters.. both are class acts !


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## nazzac (Aug 29, 2010)

Come on guys. Fedor is not even the best in his division, never mind p4p. The best P4P fighters atm are Anderson Silva and probably the closest you come to a complete fighter GSP.

Lets face it. Sylvia got his ass handed to him by a 43 year old Couture. Werdum got KTFO by JDS, Andre was at the top at the weakest time at heavyweight, like Tim.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> I really hate the Werdum UFC reject talk. I know you didnt say it, but i can see thats what you're implying. Werdum was cut by the UFC because he wasnt good enough right?


How on earth can you read his post and say this? 

He distinctly said..."I hardly call them top competition outside Werdum."

:confused03:


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Fieos said:


> If I recall correctly Werdum wasn't a reject. He lost against JDS (I think) and contract negotiations fell through. It wasn't like he was given his walking papers.


I think he got on the UFC's shit list after his fight with Arlovski (I think Arlovski did to). They didnt see to much of a reason to give him big money after that performance and getting stopped by JDS (who was still kinda unknown at that point).


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## Mauricio Rua (May 27, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> I really hate the Werdum UFC reject talk. I know you didnt say it, but i can see thats what you're implying. Werdum was cut by the UFC because he wasnt good enough right? Mean while the UFC HW division has fighters like Stefan Struve, McCorkle and sign the likes of James Toney and Kimbo Slice.... Yet Werdum, obviously the UFC cut him because he wasnt good enough. I dont know what reason Werdum was cut, but it sure as hell wasnt because he wasnt a damn good fighter.
> 
> You mention Ben Rothwell and Roy Nelson as if they arnt really worthy opponents, yet who is it JDS just fought which granted him a title shot? Who was one fight away from fighting for the UFC HW title? Yes, Roy Nelson.
> 
> ...


Well they failed to reach an agreement on Werdum's contract following the loss to Junior (and Junior was a newcomer, people didnt even know much about him) so that tells you how much the UFC actually wanted Werdum. And Kimbo wasnt even signed immediately following Werdum's exit (is what you're implying). He was in TUF, he's not even the UFC now nor was he back then when Werdum was around so why bring him up. And the same can be said about James Toney. 
Gonzaga was cut and I know he can beat some of the lower UFC HW's, but why on Earth keep him. And that's kind of what happened to Werdum. Why keep these higher paid fighters when you know they wont do much in the HW division. Let some of the other newer guys show what they can do. And the cycle goes on.

Junior didnt get the title shot just by beating Nelson, look at the streak hes in. He was bound to get a title shot somehow. 
Also, its amazing that now that Fedor lost people are saying Overeem can beat him convincingly. Honestly, I dont see why people are so high up on Overeem. Fedor would tear him really.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> How on earth can you read his post and say this?
> 
> He distinctly said..."I hardly call them top competition outside Werdum."
> 
> :confused03:


Personally I hate how people are calling Werdum top competition because before the Fedor fight people were saying how much he sucked, how badly he was going to get rocked, how he didn't even stand a chance...now that he subbed Fedor, Werdum is top competition...jeez. I look at his past fights, and they speak for him, the guy is damn good, but people didn't give him any credit, now he beats Fedor and he gets all the credit in the world. It's dumb, especially when his win was pretty iffy, getting rocked and then catching a triangle on Fedor who underestimated him.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> How on earth can you read his post and say this?
> 
> He distinctly said..."I hardly call them top competition outside Werdum."
> 
> :confused03:


Yes and then he went on to say Werdum was cut by the UFC, implying he isnt good enough to be in the UFC, when quite clearly, he is. Hence my post.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Mauricio Rua said:


> Well they failed to reach an agreement on Werdum's contract following the loss to Junior (and Junior was a newcomer, people didnt even know much about him) so that tells you how much the UFC actually wanted Werdum. And Kimbo wasnt even signed immediately following Werdum's exit (is what you're implying). He was in TUF, he's not even the UFC now nor was he back then when Werdum was around so why bring him up. And the same can be said about James Toney.
> Gonzaga was cut and I know he can beat some of the lower UFC HW's, but why on Earth keep him. And that's kind of what happened to Werdum. Why keep these higher paid fighters when you know they wont do much in the HW division. Let some of the other newer guys show what they can do. And the cycle goes on.
> 
> Junior didnt get the title shot just by beating Nelson, look at the streak hes in. He was bound to get a title shot somehow.
> Also, its amazing that now that Fedor lost people are saying Overeem can beat him convincingly. Honestly, I dont see why people are so high up on Overeem. Fedor would tear him really.


So you're saying Werdum wasc cut because he would only be able to beat the lower tier fighters?! and wouldnt really make an impact on the division after one KO loss?! Ridiculous.

Werdum sure as hell aint not Gonzaga man. Werdum always has been an elite level fighter and would be a great addition to any MMA organisation. He's destroyed Gonzaga (twice), destroyed brandon vera, beaten Alistair Overeem, and subbed the two Emelianenko brothers. He isnt some average fighter who can only beat "lower tier" fighters, hes one of the very best.

Also about the Junior comment. I posted that mainly to show that it was Roy Nelson who was one fight away from fighting for the title.

I dont know if your last comment was directed at me, but i can assure you i have always supported Alistair Overeem, long before the Werdum/Fedor fight, so no, i didnt suddenly think that because Werdum subbed Fedor, then overeem would smash him too.

People are so high up on Overeem because of his skillset. The very best striking in MMA and on top of that, very well rounded in all other areas, oh and then theres the fact that he's freakishly big and strong and in his last fight he tossed a 265 pound man to the floor like he was a rag doll.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> So you're saying Werdum wasc cut because he would only be able to beat the lower tier fighters?! and wouldnt really make an impact on the division after one KO loss?! Ridiculous.
> 
> Werdum sure as hell aint not Gonzaga man. Werdum always has been an elite level fighter and would be a great addition to any MMA organisation. He's destroyed Gonzaga (twice), destroyed brandon vera, beaten Alistair Overeem, and subbed the two Emelianenko brothers. He isnt some average fighter who can only beat "lower tier" fighters, hes one of the very best.


I agree with this. Werdum is a damn good fighter. Not sure he is a top 5 guy, but he would give most anyone a tough fight.

At least he has fought better competition than Overeem or Fedor has in the last 4 years.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> So you're saying Werdum wasc cut because he would only be able to beat the lower tier fighters?! and wouldnt really make an impact on the division after one KO loss?! Ridiculous.
> 
> Werdum sure as hell aint not Gonzaga man. Werdum always has been an elite level fighter and would be a great addition to any MMA organisation. He's destroyed Gonzaga (twice), destroyed brandon vera, beaten Alistair Overeem, and subbed the two Emelianenko brothers. He isnt some average fighter who can only beat "lower tier" fighters, hes one of the very best.


My only knock on Werdum is that he doesnt always show up to fight. When he fought Nog, Arlovski, and JDS he looked like he had no real interest in fighting them. He is talented as hell, but sometimes he just doesnt seem to be committed to the fight.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Kind of like how Fedor fought a real fighter in Werdum and lost?

I guess Fedor's luck just ran out, fighting the collosal challenges of Zuluzihno, Hong Man Choi, Matt Lindland, and Bum Rogers(etc)?



Mckeever said:


> I really hate the Werdum UFC reject talk. I know you didnt say it, but i can see thats what you're implying. Werdum was cut by the UFC because he wasnt good enough right? Mean while the UFC HW division has fighters like Stefan Struve, McCorkle and sign the likes of James Toney and Kimbo Slice.... Yet Werdum, obviously the UFC cut him because he wasnt good enough. I dont know what reason Werdum was cut, but it sure as hell wasnt because he wasnt a damn good fighter.
> 
> You mention Ben Rothwell and Roy Nelson as if they arnt really worthy opponents, yet who is it JDS just fought which granted him a title shot? Who was one fight away from fighting for the UFC HW title? Yes, Roy Nelson.
> 
> ...


This kind of reasoning is complete garbage. You are comparing a guy just entering his prime(if he's even entered it yet), to a guy with almost 40 pro fights. Fedor, with Cain's experience level, had wins over two Light Heavyweights in Babalu and Arona(which was a robbery anyway), and a bunch of cans. 

So yes, comparatively, a shot Nog, and mid level fighters like Kongo and Rothwell, and of course his first elite challenge which he destroyed in Lesnar look comparatively like world beaters.

The difference is, Cain will be actually defending his belt(something Fedor did only twice in three ****ing years, mainly too busy beating up kickboxers and part time pro wrestlers) against the undisputed elite fighters like Dos Santos from here on out.

Its something all of the UFC guys have had to do, Silva, Chuck, BJ... and somehow Fedor has eluded the ire that is givien to those that neglect the expectation of an elite, number one fighter.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Werdum was cut cause he put on boring fights in the UFC. Getting KTFO by JDS gave Dana an excuse to cut him. The UFC knew Werdum was a good fighter but they also knew they had a rational for discrediting him so they let him go climb to the top of somebody else's HW division. Now they can say lookFedor just lost to a guy that couldn't cut it in the UFC.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> Kind of like how Fedor fought a real fighter in Werdum and lost?
> 
> I guess Fedor's luck just ran out, fighting the collosal challenges of Zuluzihno, Hong Man Choi, Matt Lindland, and Bum Rogers(etc)?


Why do you pick random fighters that Fedor fought? I love when people call Rogers a bum undefeated fighter who ko'd Arlovski in 20 secs what a bum. 
Are people so retarded that they don't realize when these fights happened,here's a fact when Fedor fought Hong Man Choi Arlovski beat Werdum,Ben Rothwell,Roy Nelson,Jake O'Brien, who exactly did you want Fedor to fight back then since the UFC hw div was shit?


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> I really hate the Werdum UFC reject talk. I know you didnt say it, but i can see thats what you're implying. Werdum was cut by the UFC because he wasnt good enough right? Mean while the UFC HW division has fighters like Stefan Struve, McCorkle and sign the likes of James Toney and Kimbo Slice.... Yet Werdum, obviously the UFC cut him because he wasnt good enough. I dont know what reason Werdum was cut, but it sure as hell wasnt because he wasnt a damn good fighter.
> 
> You mention Ben Rothwell and Roy Nelson as if they arnt really worthy opponents, yet who is it JDS just fought which granted him a title shot? Who was one fight away from fighting for the UFC HW title? Yes, Roy Nelson.
> 
> ...


I never said he was a reject. I said he was cut because he was, it's a fact. Any more you read into that is on you. Don't put words in my mouth. In fact I actually called him and ELITE fighter in that post and I predicted that he would beat Fedor because he has one of the best ground games on the planet. And no, Rothwell and Fat Country AREN'T worthy opponents. Roy won TUF and beat Stefan Struve. JDS beat the SHIT out of him, easily. JDS got a title shot off him because Roy is a good gatekeeper at best and JDS made him look like a kindergartener trying to fight the high school quarterback. He got smashed in every form of the word. Sure, he didn't get knocked out because he has a great chin, but he got beat on harder than I've seen a fighter get beaten on for quite some time. And what's Rothwell done in the UFC? Win over Yvel? The dude that just got KTFO'd by JON MADSEN and is on a, what, five fight losing streak? Yeah, both of those men have fought the two top contenders as launchpads for their shots. But keep in mind, JDS also fought Cro Cop and Werdum, KOing the latter in brutal fashion. Cain dominated Kongo after the opening round and then KTFO'd Big Nog (A LEGEND and still a pretty solid one judging by his decisive victory of Randy) in one of the best KO's I've seen in a loooong time. Also, 7 of Cain's 9 fights are in the UFC. He's worked his way up that ladder by going through more guys than just Rothwell.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

For me, Fedor has has a tremendous career. He was basically undefeated for all of it. The amount of cans he has faced tarnashes it a tad.

As for Fedor's current ranking? Hard to really say until he faces the actual champ of the organization that he is in. Until he fights Overeem, I don't see how he can be the best or even 2nd best HW in the world. 

You have 2 guys that claim to be the best in the world, and their fans claim they are the best and list their reasons. (Fedor ad Overeem)...yet they haven't even fought eahcother.
All of this while you have another guy (Werdum) who has beat both guys.

Makes little sense. But then again most things Fedor's camp does or Strikeforce does makes little sense.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Can someone answer this question if Overeem didn't run to K-1 and stayed in SF who do you think he would fight? Fedor is free to fight anyone he said it about 2 weeks ago ANYONE but Oveerem is busy with Tyrone Spong.Why would you leave to K-1 when the SF div has Barnett,Silva,Fedor and then Werdum ?


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Bknmax said:


> Why do you pick random fighters that Fedor fought? I love when people call Rogers a bum undefeated fighter who ko'd Arlovski in 20 secs what a bum.
> Are people so retarded that they don't realize when these fights happened,here's a fact when Fedor fought Hong Man Choi Arlovski beat Werdum,Ben Rothwell,Roy Nelson,Jake O'Brien, who exactly did you want Fedor to fight back then since the UFC hw div was shit?



Not grade Z fighters like part time kick boxers and bums like Rogers?

Rogers also got thrown to the mat and beaten up like a little step child to Overeem, then won a controversial decision to Ruben Virreal. Yes, the guy that an 56 year old Bas came out of retirement and stopped, arguably beat Big Bum.

Undefeated doesn't mean shit when you are facing t-shirt wearing truckers, do some research for God's sake.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Can someone answer this question if Overeem didn't run to K-1 and stayed in SF who do you think he would fight? Fedor is free to fight anyone he said it about 2 weeks ago ANYONE but Oveerem is busy with Tyrone Spong.Why would you leave to K-1 when the SF div has Barnett,Silva,Fedor and then Werdum ?


Honestly...if Overeem didn't go to K1, Fedor's management would look for a rematch against Werdum or fight Antonia Silva, then maybe...JUST MAYBE fight the winner of Werdum and Overeem assuming they fight, or a rematch with Werdum. Only way Fedor fights Overeem(IMO) is if Overeem beats Werdum.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Bknmax said:


> Can someone answer this question if Overeem didn't run to K-1 and stayed in SF who do you think he would fight? Fedor is free to fight anyone he said it about 2 weeks ago ANYONE but Oveerem is busy with Tyrone Spong.Why would you leave to K-1 when the SF div has Barnett,Silva,Fedor and then Werdum ?


1: Barnett wasn't even signed when Overeem commited to K1.

2: LOL at Bigfoot.

3: Werdum has been injured for what seeems like years now for some reason.

4: The Fraud? Well this probably explains it...




> What about the current Strikeforce Heavyweight Champion Alistair Overeem?
> 
> - I personally think that Alistair Overeem did not reach the desired level to challenge Fedor. He beat a lot of no-name opponents in Mixed Martial Arts. Overeem defeated Paul Buentello and then disappeared from the United States for more than two years, which is simply ridiculous. He has nothing to offer for Fedor Emelianenko, except being a steroid bully. Also, pay attention that Werdum beat Overeem when they were fighting in Pride, four years ago.
> 
> ...



:laugh:

:laugh:

:laugh:


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> Not grade Z fighters like part time kick boxers and bums like Rogers?
> 
> Rogers also got thrown to the mat and beaten up like a little step child to Overeem, then won a controversial decision to Ruben Virreal. Yes, the guy that an 56 year old Bas came out of retirement and stopped, arguably beat Big Bum.
> 
> Undefeated doesn't mean shit when you are facing t-shirt wearing truckers, do some research for God's sake.


Do you know anything about MMA? Honest question do you know what happens to an undefeated fighter when they get knocked the **** out? The mentality changes the way you enter a fight changes you feel different you dont run n gun like he did with Arlovski.Witch is why Overeem showed NOTHING in the domination over Rogers if he did it when Rogers was undefeated that would be a different story.What did Overeem show in that fight did he show he can take a punch? no did he show that he has stamina?no all he did was beat down a fighter that was mentally different after his first KO.Undefeated doesn't mean shit? these are Humans beings fighting putting their blood and sweat every day and then you get Koed you think nothing changes about that person.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Bknmax said:


> Do you know anything about MMA? Honest question do you know what happens to an undefeated fighter when they get knocked the **** out? The mentality changes the way you enter a fight changes you feel different you dont run n gun like he did with Arlovski.Witch is why Overeem showed NOTHING in the domination over Rogers if he did it when Rogers was undefeated that would be a different story.What did Overeem show in that fight did he show he can take a punch? no did he show that he has stamina?no all he did was beat down a fighter that was mentally different after his first KO.Undefeated doesn't mean shit? these are Humans beings fighting putting their blood and sweat every day and then you get Koed you think nothing changes about that person.


It'd also help if said KO'd fighter had talent to begin with.

Also, pretty funny considering you are talking about a guy in Overeem who has been KO'd himself a good 6 or 7 times.

Fortunately he has talent, so ya know....


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> It'd also help if said KO'd fighter had talent to begin with.
> 
> Also, pretty funny considering you are talking about a guy in Overeem who has been KO'd himself a good 6 or 7 times.
> 
> Fortunately he has talent, so ya know....


English thanks, And do you know what IF means IF Overeem didn't run to K-1 he would be fighting Silva or Werdum but he ran away from the Werdum fight because making less money in K-1 is more important.And then Josh was signed so with Werdum injured the fights that he would of had would be Fedor and Silva, and then Josh.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> English thanks, And do you know what IF means IF Overeem didn't run to K-1 he would be fighting Silva or Werdum but he ran away from the Werdum fight because making less money in K-1 is more important.And then Josh was signed so with Werdum injured the fights that he would of had would be Fedor and Silva, and then Josh.


Overeem wanted to fight Fedor/Werdum one was injured the other didn't want the fight so he went to K-1 because honestly fighting a guy who is on a one fight streak in Antonio Silva makes little sense especially after defending his title previously to a guy who lost his last fight. Fedor couldn't duck Overeem any more than he is now. Fedor is that kid in class who waits for the teacher to come back in the room before challenging the bully to fight. He doesn't really want to fight he is just trying to save face.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Yes, because Rothwell isnt one of the toughest HW's in the division and Kongo isnt notoriously hard to finish :sarcastic12:
> 
> Open your eyes son.


Sorry you have a minority opinion. Rothwell is just not as good as you feel he is. I think both him and Kongo are above gate keepers but neither should be top five and Lesnar should beat either of them.

I honestly dont care to hear what Fedor says about UFC fighters when he wont fight them himself.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Overeem wanted to fight Fedor/Werdum one was injured the other didn't want the fight so he went to K-1 because honestly fighting a guy who is on a one fight streak in Antonio Silva makes little sense especially after defending his title previously to a guy who lost his last fight. Fedor couldn't duck Overeem any more than he is now. Fedor is that kid in class who waits for the teacher to come back in the room before challenging the bully to fight. He doesn't really want to fight he is just trying to save face.


Your opinion, ducking is being away from an organization for 2 years while the real Champ is winning in Pride.And i will hold you to that 20 mill when Oveerem gets Ko'ed in the first Round.And not only do i know that Fedor would destroy Overeem Josh would also.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Bknmax said:


> *English thanks*, And do you know what IF means IF Overeem didn't run to K-1 he would be fighting Silva or Werdum but he ran away from the Werdum fight because making less money in K-1 is more important.And then Josh was signed so with Werdum injured the fights that he would of had would be Fedor and Silva, and then Josh.


Reading comprehension, thanks?

There was nothing even remotely confusing about what I just typed, unless you, by chance happen to have a 3rd grade reading level and cannot comprehend a complex statement.

Also, I wouldn't doubt he's making more money doing K-1, historically they've paid pretty well. I've already gone over this in another post so I'm not going to waste any more time with this balderdash when it's already been disproved.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Your opinion, ducking is being away from an organization for 2 years while the real Champ is winning in Pride.And i will hold you to that 20 mill when Oveerem gets Ko'ed in the first Round.And not only do i know that Fedor would destroy Overeem Josh would also.


Well that would be your opinion, works both ways and I dont think it would be so easy to walk through Overeem that Barnett could do it well maybe with all the roids..


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> Reading comprehension, thanks?
> 
> There was nothing even remotely confusing about what I just typed, unless you, by chance happen to have a 3rd grade reading level and cannot comprehend a complex statement.
> 
> Also, I wouldn't doubt he's making more money doing K-1, historically they've paid pretty well. I've already gone over this in another post so I'm not going to waste any more time with this balderdash when it's already been disproved.


Did i say it was confusing learn to read, complex statement 



> considering you are talking about a guy in Overeem who has been KO'd himself a good 6 or 7 times


go back to the 3rd grade and finish it.

You wouldn't doubt he's making more money in K-1, i would and so would Overeem.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Your opinion, ducking is being away from an organization for 2 years while the real Champ is winning in Pride.And i will hold you to that 20 mill when Oveerem gets Ko'ed in the first Round.And not only do i know that Fedor would destroy Overeem Josh would also.


Woulds and coulds don't mean crap because the fight won't happen. Between the fact that M-1 and SF are constantly "negotiating" I mean seriously how many times does Finklestein say Fedor's future should be decided soon. should be decided could have fooled me I thought he already signed with SF. Every fight it seems they need to renegotiate for 6 months. The fact Fedor wants to fight Werdum which virtually screws SF with no contender that actually wants to fight the champ. Why do you think they had to sign Alistairs far less talented brother? For cannon fodder so they could set up Big Foot for a title fight grudge match since he is seemingly the only one in SF that actually wants to fight the champ. Barnett would to. Yeah I highly doubt Barnett is ever booked in a main event in the US again. I should hope SF is not stupid enough to have faith in an Overeem/Barnett fight going down without a failed drug test.


> Your opinion, ducking is being away from an organization for 2 years while the real Champ is winning in Pride


 This sentence really confuses me. you realize Pride went under before Overeem was SF champ right? Overeem actually came back 6 months after Fedor's debut and Fedor was nowhere to be found. I think Overeem should have been stripped of the title because he obviously had no interest in defending it but lets be honest it had zero to do with Fedor.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Bknmax said:


> Did i say it was confusing learn to read, complex statement
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are so amazingly incoherent.

You stated "English, please", despite anyone who's beyond primary school could easily understand the sentence.

I'm not even sure what you quoted for, and then a random insult thrown in. Again, either sober up, or consider a GED program.


As far as K1 payouts, many of the top dogs are millionaires, and even new guys like Spong drive luxury cars. 

Aerts said he was once paid 150k for winning a GP and that was 15 years ago.

Overeem was paid 30k for his fight with Buentello, and from what I know, he hadnt gotten a new SF contract, nor were SF payrolls disclosed for his fight with Rogers.

You sir, fail.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> This sentence really confuses me. you realize Pride went under before Overeem was SF champ right? Overeem actually came back 6 months after Fedor's debut and Fedor was nowhere to be found. I think Overeem should have been stripped of the title because he obviously had no interest in defending it but lets be honest it had zero to do with Fedor.


So Oveerem came back to see Fedor's debut fight and not be in it lol,and then fought the same person Fedor destroyed and ran.



Roflcopter said:


> You are so amazingly incoherent.
> 
> You stated "English, please", despite anyone who's beyond primary school could easily understand the sentence.
> 
> I'm not even sure what you quoted for, and then a random insult thrown in. Again, either sober up, or consider a GED program.


Really you think there's a guy inside Overeem who has been KO'd 6 or 7 times


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Bknmax said:


> Really you think there's a guy inside Overeem who has been KO'd 6 or 7 times


Part of understanding English is understanding simple, idiomatic expressions.

But seeing as, judging by your posts, you don't even understand when to use capitalization and punctuation, I can plainly see why you are unable to do this.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> So Oveerem came back to see Fedor's debut fight and not be in it lol,and then fought the same person Fedor destroyed and ran.


He had to fight Rogers because Fedor was to busy "renegotiating his contract". Why don't you wonder why Fedor said he he didn't want to fight Overeem and instead said he wanted wait to fight Werdum again or do you just choose to like in Fedor land where you don't realize that Fedor only called out Overeem after he was booked in K-1. I don't know how anyone can not see this. I can't stand Overeem and think he is one of the most overrated fighters in MMA today but it is crystal clear that M-1 does not want Overeem/Fedor happening and I doubt that Fedor is oblivious to this.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Overeem wanted to fight Fedor/Werdum one was injured the other didn't want the fight so he went to K-1 because honestly fighting a guy who is on a one fight streak in Antonio Silva makes little sense especially after defending his title previously to a guy who lost his last fight. Fedor couldn't duck Overeem any more than he is now. Fedor is that kid in class who waits for the teacher to come back in the room before challenging the bully to fight. He doesn't really want to fight he is just trying to save face.


People. Listen to Toxic. Seriously.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> He had to fight Rogers because Fedor was to busy "renegotiating his contract". Why don't you wonder why Fedor said he he didn't want to fight Overeem and instead said he wanted wait to fight Werdum again or do you just choose to like in Fedor land where you don't realize that Fedor only called out Overeem after he was booked in K-1. I don't know how anyone can not see this. I can't stand Overeem and think he is one of the most overrated fighters in MMA today but it is crystal clear that M-1 does not want Overeem/Fedor happening and I doubt that Fedor is oblivious to this.


Well unlike you i met Fedor and Vadim ,and i know the relationship that they have between each.In no way are they scared in having a fight with Overeem.The real reason they haven't renewed a contract with SF is simply because they want to have options with UFC after Fedor becomes the SF Champ.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Bknmax said:


> Well unlike you i met Fedor and Vadim ,and i know the relationship that they have between each.In no way are they scared in having a fight with Overeem.The real reason they haven't renewed a contract with SF is simply because they want to have options with UFC after Fedor becomes the SF Champ.


:laugh:

:laugh:

:laugh:


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> Part of understanding English is understanding simple, idiomatic expressions.
> 
> But seeing as, judging by your posts, you don't even understand when to use capitalization and punctuation, I can plainly see why you are unable to do this.


Well since English is my third language i might of been confused in what you said,so your telling me you meant to say that there's a guy inside Overeem


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Well unlike you i met Fedor and Vadim ,and i know the relationship that they have between each.In no way are they scared in having a fight with Overeem.The real reason they haven't renewed a contract with SF is simply because they want to have options with UFC after Fedor becomes the SF Champ.


They didn't want Overeem for the second fight now not for the third. They won't have option with the UFC any way. That whole the UFC needs Fedor train is long gone. The UFC offered Fedor and M-1 more than they have ever offered any fighter and it wasn't enough. Why on earth after Fedor loses and the mystique is gone would the UFC want to offer them anything. Fedor would be likely to get no more than a 75/75 ($75,000 to show and another to win) now. 

You want my honest opinion I think Fedor is gonna end up out of a job. The mystique is gone and Fedor and M-1 are still playing games with SF. They better realize SF are the only ones still at the table who have a big interest in being in the Fedor business and eventually M-1 is gonna drive them out of it and they will be left with nothing.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> They didn't want Overeem for the second fight now not for the third. They won't have option with the UFC any way. That whole the UFC needs Fedor train is long gone. The UFC offered Fedor and M-1 more than they have ever offered any fighter and it wasn't enough. Why on earth after Fedor loses and the mystique is gone would the UFC want to offer them anything. Fedor would be likely to get no more than a 75/75 ($75,000 to show and another to win) now.
> 
> You want my honest opinion I think Fedor is gonna end up out of a job. The mystique is gone and Fedor and M-1 are still playing games with SF. They better realize SF are the only ones still at the table who have a big interest in being in the Fedor business and eventually M-1 is gonna drive them out of it and they will be left with nothing.


Nah when Fedor defeats Overeem his stock will be greater then it was before he fought Werdum,UFC in my opinion has 2 HW's that are contenders with Fedor ,JDS and Cain.You think Dana won't pay what ever Fink tells him to,Cain or JDS vs Fedor would make him more money then Brock ever could.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Nah when Fedor defeats Overeem his stock will be greater then it was before he fought Werdum,UFC in my opinion has 2 HW's that are contenders with Fedor ,JDS and Cain.You think Dana won't pay what ever Fink tells him to,Cain or JDS vs Fedor would make him more money then Brock ever could.


LMAO Fedor has never drawn a decent PPV in his life while Brock is the biggest draw in the history of the sport.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> LMAO Fedor has never drawn a decent PPV in his life while Brock is the biggest draw in the history of the sport.


Ufc history would be the key word, if Fedor wins the sf title and enters the ufc he will draw more then Brock ever would.


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## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

Toxic said:


> You know what I don't even care about Fedor anymore. Werdum beating him and the fact that his management seems content to duck any and all relevant fights is just embarrassing. The fact he is saying he wants to fight Overeem and the reem is ducking him despite the fact ever single source indicates that it it is M-1 ducking the fight. The fact that they wanted Olympic style drug testing for Overeem but got pissed when Overeem suggested that was fine as long as it wasn't just him that was subjected to it. The politics of Fedor fights have really turned me against him as a fighter.


***REPS***

I agree with this 100 %.

I dont care what anybody at M-1 has to say no matter what it is about.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Ufc history would be the key word, if Fedor wins the sf title and enters the ufc he will draw more then Brock ever would.


Based on what? He never drew for SF, didn't draw for Affliction. Kimbo Slice has drawn way more fans than Fedor ever has and that is fact. It may not be fair but Fedor is not that big of a name and there are plenty of fighters who have drawn more money. Your making a pretty bold statement without any factual evidence and without having history on your side. Fedor has always been a nothing in the US and once he finally started making a name for himself he lost to a guy who is best known for being on the receiving end of a brutal knock out. There is nobody in SF that Fedor can fight to rebuild that name. Overeem is a nobody outside Japan or hardcore fans. Werdum is a nobody. Antonio Silva, nobody. There is no reason for the UFC to be anything but indifferent about signing Fedor now. The hardcore fans are not even clamoring to see him in the UFC the way they once were. Face it M-1 played there cards out and they are pretty much all out of chips.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Bknmax said:


> Well unlike you i met Fedor and Vadim ,and i know the relationship that they have between each.In no way are they scared in having a fight with Overeem.The real reason they haven't renewed a contract with SF is simply because they want to have options with UFC after Fedor becomes the SF Champ.


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Based on what? He never drew for SF, didn't draw for Affliction. Kimbo Slice has drawn way more fans than Fedor ever has and that is fact. It may not be fair but Fedor is not that big of a name and there are plenty of fighters who have drawn more money. Your making a pretty bold statement without any factual evidence and without having history on your side. Fedor has always been a nothing in the US and once he finally started making a name for himself he lost to a guy who is best known for being on the receiving end of a brutal knock out. There is nobody in SF that Fedor can fight to rebuild that name. Overeem is a nobody outside Japan or hardcore fans. Werdum is a nobody. Antonio Silva, nobody. There is no reason for the UFC to be anything but indifferent about signing Fedor now. The hardcore fans are not even clamoring to see him in the UFC the way they once were. Face it M-1 played there cards out and they are pretty much all out of chips.


***Reps again***

The only place Fedor is a huge draw is in other markets, he's a nobody in the USA. And until M-1 stops with the BS it is gonna stay that way.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Bknmax said:


> Nah when Fedor defeats Overeem his stock will be greater then it was before he fought Werdum,UFC in my opinion has 2 HW's that are contenders with Fedor ,JDS and Cain.You think Dana won't pay what ever Fink tells him to,Cain or JDS vs Fedor would make him more money then Brock ever could.


Wow, you just love to talk out of your ass don't you?

:bored02:


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Ufc history would be the key word, if Fedor wins the sf title and enters the ufc he will draw more then Brock ever would.


Very doubtful.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Nah when Fedor defeats Overeem his stock will be greater then it was before he fought Werdum,UFC in my opinion has 2 HW's that are contenders with Fedor ,JDS and Cain.You think Dana won't pay what ever Fink tells him to,Cain or JDS vs Fedor would make him more money then Brock ever could.


No. Average Joe Casual really isn't interested in Fedor because they probably don't know who he is.

Joe Casual on the other hand is very interested in Brock Lesnar because he was popular prior to coming into the UFC.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Can someone answer this question if Overeem didn't run to K-1 and stayed in SF who do you think he would fight? Fedor is free to fight anyone he said it about 2 weeks ago ANYONE but Oveerem is busy with Tyrone Spong.Why would you leave to K-1 when the SF div has Barnett,Silva,Fedor and then Werdum ?


Did it ever occur to you that Overeem comes overseas to compete in SF events? He isn't running away to do K-1, he does K-1 every year. It is big in Europe, the continent he shockingly calls home. 

He also does quite well in it and I love watching him and the K-1 events. 

Just because you find SF more intersting doesn't mean Overeem, or his fans do.



Bknmax said:


> Your opinion, ducking is being away from an organization for 2 years while the real Champ is winning in Pride.And i will hold you to that 20 mill when Oveerem gets Ko'ed in the first Round.And not only do i know that Fedor would destroy Overeem Josh would also.


Sig bet? Overeem beats Fedor imo, and Josh...

...i'm suprised Barnett is able to take time away from wrestling high school kids for prize money to compete.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Um who gives a shit what America thinks? America isn't the biggest country in the world and Fedor is a bigger draw in Russia and Japan . I'm on my iPhone right now but I can easily prove how wrong u all are . Living in American propoganda dreams WTF are u talking about fedor vs cro cop was the biggest draw in mma history not ufc. An over rated nobody like Brock will be shit compared to Cain vs Fedor.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Um who gives a shit what America thinks? America isn't the biggest country in the world and Fedor is a bigger draw in Russia and Japan . I'm on my iPhone right now but I can easily prove how wrong u all are . Living in American propoganda dreams WTF are u talking about fedor vs cro cop was the biggest draw in mma history not ufc. An over rated nobody like Brock will be shit compared to Cain vs Fedor.


The UFC is a buisiness, they don't operate in Japan they are an American company. But honestly in Japan I would bet my ass that Lesnar would out draw Fedor. Japan is the country that made Bob Sapp a star they would line up for days to buy tickets to see Lesnar. Fedor/Cro Cop is the biggest draw? WTF? Cro Cop/Fedor wasn't even the biggest draw in Pride history (Wandy/Sakuraba was). Live Gate is nothing the money is in PPV and how many people watch it. Lesnar is the legitimate MMA powerhouse and the money backs it up, he draws. Fedor is a star in Russia but lets actually be honest Bodog Fight couldn't even put on a show with Fedor in Russia and make money instead in bankrupt them. Its got nothing to do with propaganda. It has to do with Fedor spending the majority of his time in a country (Japan) that has largely became dis enamored with the sport. MMA's popularity has dwindled in Japan since before Prides demise. In the UFC Fedor has never built up that fan base and honestly at this point its unlikely he will.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Um who gives a shit what America thinks? America isn't the biggest country in the world and Fedor is a bigger draw in Russia and Japan . I'm on my iPhone right now but I can easily prove how wrong u all are . Living in American propoganda dreams WTF are u talking about fedor vs cro cop was the biggest draw in mma history not ufc. An over rated nobody like Brock will be shit compared to Cain vs Fedor.


Yeah the entire world gives a shit what America thinks. The UFC is an American ran company that is completely dominating the entire industry. Thats why what America thinks matters.

Fedor vs CroCop was not the biggest draw in mma history. Where are you getting this crap from?

You won't find me defending Brock. I agree he is over rated and was gifted the title. But I know that Brock will out draw Fedor every single time. That is a fact.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Bknmax said:


> Um who gives a shit what America thinks? America isn't the biggest country in the world and Fedor is a bigger draw in Russia and Japan . I'm on my iPhone right now but I can easily prove how wrong u all are . Living in American propoganda dreams WTF are u talking about fedor vs cro cop was the biggest draw in mma history not ufc. An over rated nobody like Brock will be shit compared to Cain vs Fedor.


Weren't you a guy that called someone out on grammar?

You make me laugh, hard! :laugh:


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Weren't you a guy that called someone out on grammar?
> 
> You make me laugh, hard! :laugh:


. My fault didn't know I was being graded driving around in ny.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> The UFC is a buisiness, they don't operate in Japan they are an American company.


No Way? Good point



Toxic said:


> But honestly in Japan I would bet my ass that Lesnar would out draw Fedor. Japan is the country that made Bob Sapp a star they would line up for days to buy tickets to see Lesnar.


 No one cares what you would bet the Fact is that Fedor is a bigger draw in Japan,Russian, he might not be as popular in America but he is still known.No one cares about an over rated WWE superstar, and no he will never sell more tickets then Fedor in Japan because he is garbage and 33 and his career will be over in less then 2 years just like 36 yr old Carwin(Fact)




Toxic said:


> Fedor/Cro Cop is the biggest draw? WTF? Cro Cop/Fedor wasn't even the biggest draw in Pride history (Wandy/Sakuraba was).


 If Fedor is marketed well enough it will cause just as much hype and hysteria in the U.S, Fedor's past fights in the U.S have hardly been marketed whatsoever. Fedor vs. Mirko in 2006 was the biggest fight in mma history that is just one fight that you can add to Fedors list. 



Toxic said:


> Its got nothing to do with propaganda. It has to do with Fedor spending the majority of his time in a country (Japan) that has largely became dis enamored with the sport.


Vadim is saying, why should all of Fedor's accomplishments come down to being owned by the UFC - in the sense that if Fedor were to "go to the UFC", Dana would own and control everything he does. The UFC owns ancillary rights, images, likeness, name, etc. They promote or not, how they see fit and there's nothing that a fighter can do about it.
This is nothing new from Dana - just listen to interviews by Randy Couture, Arlovski, Rampage, Tim Sylvia, Tito Ortiz, BJ Penn, Dan Henderson, etc. Fedor's manager doesn't want to have zero say or control in the career of Fedor if he were to sign with the UFC.
Can you even comprehend the amount of people that will watch Cain vs Fedor Russia,Japan,America,Brazil you can build a Mexico vs Russia rivalry,Dana can make it one of the greatest fights in history not just MMA.I could care less what Brock does now but i would still pay to see Fedor vs Overeem any day.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Bknmax said:


> . My fault didn't know I was being graded driving around in ny.



I couldn't help myself but to point out the irony. 

You started grading someone else, and then turn around and look like a 3rd grader who failed English later in the day.

:thumb02:


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

jonnyg4508 said:


> I couldn't help myself but to point out the irony.
> 
> You started grading someone else, and then turn around and look like a 3rd grader who failed English later in the day.
> 
> :thumb02:


oh no


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

Bknmax said:


> Um who gives a shit what America thinks? America isn't the biggest country in the world and Fedor is a bigger draw in Russia and Japan . I'm on my iPhone right now but I can easily prove how wrong u all are . Living in American propoganda dreams WTF are u talking about fedor vs cro cop was the biggest draw in mma history not ufc. An over rated nobody like Brock will be shit compared to Cain vs Fedor.





Bknmax said:


> oh no


I'll pay you to leave :sarcastic12:


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> No Way? Good point
> 
> No one cares what you would bet the Fact is that Fedor is a bigger draw in Japan,Russian, he might not be as popular in America but he is still known.No one cares about an over rated WWE superstar, and no he will never sell more tickets then Fedor in Japan because he is garbage and 33 and his career will be over in less then 2 years just like 36 yr old Carwin(Fact)


 His career could be over today and he would have still drawn more money than Fedor despite having way less fights, FACT. Nobody cares about an overrated WWE Superstar. jeez funny the Japanese were paying huge money to have Lesnar come over when he was a pro wrestler because the fans loved him, this same country embraced Bob Sapp and made him one of the biggest superstars in the sports history over there. The whole American larger than life shtick is ate up over there the Japanese would love Lesnar he is practically custom made to be a star over there. 




> If Fedor is marketed well enough it will cause just as much hype and hysteria in the U.S, Fedor's past fights in the U.S have hardly been marketed whatsoever. Fedor vs. Mirko in 2006 was the biggest fight in mma history that is just one fight that you can add to Fedors list.


 Oh, so Fedor will be a star the UFC just has to pay a fortune to market him, a fortune to get him to fight, a fortune to get M-1 on board and they can make no money because they will have spent it all. Fedor will never cause hype or hysteria in the US. Afflcition tried its just that if you didn't do it in the UFC the casual fan doesn't really care.



> Vadim is saying, why should all of Fedor's accomplishments come down to being owned by the UFC - in the sense that if Fedor were to "go to the UFC", Dana would own and control everything he does. The UFC owns ancillary rights, images, likeness, name, etc. They promote or not, how they see fit and there's nothing that a fighter can do about it.
> This is nothing new from Dana - just listen to interviews by Randy Couture, Arlovski, Rampage, Tim Sylvia, Tito Ortiz, BJ Penn, Dan Henderson, etc. Fedor's manager doesn't want to have zero say or control in the career of Fedor if he were to sign with the UFC.
> Can you even comprehend the amount of people that will watch Cain vs Fedor Russia,Japan,America,Brazil you can build a Mexico vs Russia rivalry,Dana can make it one of the greatest fights in history not just MMA.I could care less what Brock does now but i would still pay to see Fedor vs Overeem any day.


Dana owns the Pride Library hate to break it to Fedor but the UFC will always own his legacy. The fight won't draw money. Nobody cares about Russia vs Mexico, there isn't money in the fight it won't draw. Velasquez draws money because he got the rub from crushing Lesnar. Going into the Lesnar fight Velasquez's popularity spiked because the fans hated Lesnar so Cain was the great brown hope. I am baffled how you logic is failing on all ends. Fedor never drew the biggest crowds in Japan, never drew money in America and bankrupt a company who tried to put on a show in his own back yard in Russia and yet you argue this guy is gonna be the biggest draw ever. It just won't happen. Its not what you WANT to happen its about what is REALISTIC. and Realistically Fedor is there is at least half a dozen fighters in the UFC HW division who would make more money for the UFC and cost them substantially less than Fedor. James Toney drew more PPV buys for his fight with Randy than Fedor EVER has. Sometimes the truth hurts.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Um who gives a shit what America thinks? America isn't the biggest country in the world and Fedor is a bigger draw in Russia and Japan . I'm on my iPhone right now but I can easily prove how wrong u all are . Living in American propoganda dreams WTF are u talking about fedor vs cro cop was the biggest draw in mma history not ufc. An over rated nobody like Brock will be shit compared to Cain vs Fedor.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Nah when Fedor defeats Overeem his stock will be greater then it was before he fought Werdum,UFC in my opinion has 2 HW's that are contenders with Fedor ,JDS and Cain.You think Dana won't pay what ever Fink tells him to,Cain or JDS vs Fedor would make him more money then Brock ever could.


Fedor is NOT a house hold name at all. Brock Lesnar is. Mainly because of his celebrity from WWE, but people know him and will buy PPVs for him. No one but the hardcore fans even know who Fedor IS. He doesn't matter any more. Dana was going to sign him to console his more dedicated fan base, not the casual fans who buy shitloads of PPVs. Fedor's drawing power is probably slightly better than Fitch's


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Damn. Bkn just got thoroughly owned.


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Damn. Bkn just got thoroughly owned.


He was acting like an a55 to almost everyone on this thread. IMO he had it coming.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

I dunno if Fedor is a draw, but I do know Fedor's been featured on fight science, he's been in countless magazines, and he's held the olympic torch...so to say he doesn't have a very big fanbase and that people don't know who he is pretty farfetched. Fedor is a draw, but not a draw like GSP, Lesnar, or Rampage who have crafted their image. Fedor is a draw for the fact that he is an MMA fighter...gotta respect that, he doesn't do anything else. I say he pulls in Anderson type numbers; maybe a bit less.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

ptw said:


> I dunno if Fedor is a draw, but I do know Fedor's been featured on fight science, he's been in countless magazines, and he's held the olympic torch...so to say he doesn't have a very big fanbase and that people don't know who he is pretty farfetched. Fedor is a draw, but not a draw like GSP, Lesnar, or Rampage who have crafted their image. Fedor is a draw for the fact that he is an MMA fighter...gotta respect that, he doesn't do anything else. I say he pulls in Anderson type numbers; maybe a bit less.


Dude you must live in a densly populated area if you think holding the Olympic Torch makes you a somebody. I bet if we found a list of everyone who carried the torch you wouldn't have a clue who 99.99% of them are. Fight Science? Hardly a highly rated TV show. And Magazine covers, like MMA magazines the same ones that casual fans don't read. Hell even I don't read that crap. Fedor will draw the hardcore fan base nobody else problem is the hardcores are you guaranteed audience.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

ptw said:


> I dunno if Fedor is a draw, but I do know Fedor's been featured on fight science, he's been in countless magazines, and he's held the olympic torch...so to say he doesn't have a very big fanbase and that people don't know who he is pretty farfetched. *Fedor is a draw, but not a draw like GSP, Lesnar, or Rampage who have crafted their image*. Fedor is a draw for the fact that he is an MMA fighter...gotta respect that, he doesn't do anything else. I say he pulls in *Anderson type numbers; maybe a bit less*.





Toxic said:


> *Dude you must live in a densly populated area if you think holding the Olympic Torch makes you a somebody. I bet if we found a list of everyone who carried the torch you wouldn't have a clue who 99.99% of them are. Fight Science? Hardly a highly rated TV show. And Magazine covers, like MMA magazines the same ones that casual fans don't read. Hell even I don't read that crap. Fedor will draw the hardcore fan base nobody else problem is the hardcores are you guaranteed audience*.


You and he said the exact same thing. Only he said it politely.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Damn. Bkn just got thoroughly owned.


Yeah because I care what Toxic or you say I know who Fedor is and I know who Brock is, I'll be laughing at people when I have them all wearing Fedors sigs.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Yeah because I care what Toxic or you say I know who Fedor is and I know who Brock is, I'll be laughing at people when I have them all wearing *Fedors sigs*.


Never Fedor. Epic brofist fer life!


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Yeah because I care what Toxic or you say I know who Fedor is and I know who Brock is, I'll be laughing at people when I have them all wearing Fedors sigs.


Obviously you do, otherwise you wouldn't be responding.

Or instead of responding to the 5 people who just proved you thoroughly wrong, you responded to the only post that you didn't have to actually make a point.

And you should care what Toxic thinks. He's an admin, one of the highest ranking repped people, and one of the best posters on this site.

Also, where and when will we be "wearing Fedor sigs"? Last I checked I control my sig, and haven't agreed to any kind of sig bets. Your posts continually grow more dillusional as this thread goes on.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I will agree to wear a Fedor sig for an entire year the day Fedor out draws Lesnar. 

I have more fear of a Flaming rabid warthog flying through my living room window though. I am not hating Fedor, I like Fedor but I also am in touch with reality enough to understand he does not translate to PPV buys.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Obviously you do, otherwise you wouldn't be responding.
> 
> Or instead of responding to the 5 people who just proved you thoroughly wrong, you responded to the only post that you didn't have to actually make a point.
> 
> ...


 obviously i meant the people that made sig bets with me



> Nobody cares about an overrated WWE Superstar. jeez funny the Japanese were paying huge money to have Lesnar come over when he was a pro wrestler because the fans loved him, this same country embraced Bob Sapp and made him one of the biggest superstars in the sports history over there. The whole American larger than life shtick is ate up over there the Japanese would love Lesnar he is practically custom made to be a star over there.


What did Toxic exactly tell me here? Him coming as a WWE wrestler and making less money then Fedor proved me wrong? yeah i really got owned ,he keeps changing the subject and cant answer my post and comes up with some random fact that had nothing to do with the subject. The fact is Brock is 5-2 and if he goe's to Japan he won't even come close to what Fedor would make.I am done talking to you all until Fedor destroys Overeem peace


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Squirrelfighter said:


> You and he said the exact same thing. Only he said it politely.


Not really, I have been critical of Anderson Silva's ability to draw PPV's buys but I believe even he will out draw Fedor. (Anderson is the worst drawing champ in modern UFC history) Lets put it this way Anderson Silva fought Cote on a pretty weak card and Cote wasn't getting a whole lot of respect going into the fight, They did a better buy rate than either Affliction card and the Bodog PPV combined. Patrick Cote has drawn better PPV buys than Fedor. Like I said its not an insult but I doubt at this stage he will ever turn into a draw he is about 3 years to late.



Bknmax said:


> What did Toxic exactly tell me here? Him coming as a WWE wrestler and making less money then Fedor proved me wrong? yeah i really got owned ,he keeps changing the subject and cant answer my post and comes up with some random fact that had nothing to do with the subject. The fact is Brock is 5-2 and if he goe's to Japan he won't even come close to what Fedor would make.I am done talking to you all until Fedor destroys Overeem peace


You think Lesnar makes less than Fedor? LMAO, Dream is going under, SF isn't even on PPV neither of those companies could even afford Lesnar's pay cheque. You keep bringing up Lesnar's record of 5-2 like somehow being a great fighter directly translates to being a draw. Fedor could destroy Overeem and it still wouldn't change anything. The Japanses won't care because it happened in the US and the US won't care because it didn't happen in the UFC. Its like you can't dissociate being a great fighter from being a great draw. There is some magic formula where you need to connect to your audience some fighters like Chuck Liddell and Wanderlei Silva become beloved by the fans, others like Tito and Lesnar become hated but wether they are passionate about them winning or losing the fans need to see it. Fedor doesn't have either of these traits the casual fan doesn't know him, he doesn't speak english (instantly hurts drawing ability see Anderson Silva) he is a quite little Russian who looks like he should be scrubbing a toilet. Sorry there is such thing as the it factor and Fedor definitely does not have it.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

> What did Toxic exactly tell me here? Him coming as a WWE wrestler and making less money then Fedor proved me wrong?


Are you even reading peoples replies? It sure doesn't seem like it. Toxic stated that Brock has a main stream fan base because of his WWE popularity. A fan base that Fedor will never be able to compete with.



> yeah i really got owned ,he keeps changing the subject and cant answer my post and comes up with some random fact that had nothing to do with the subject.


Everything you brought up has been dismissed thoroughly. Name one thing that hasn't been responded to. 

Waiting....



> The fact is Brock is 5-2 and if he goe's to Japan he won't even come close to what Fedor would make.I am done talking to you all until Fedor destroys Overeem peace


Bob Sapp was 10-6 and a HUGE draw in Japan. It's already been shown how Japanese buy into the American hype and love seeing giants fight. Brock will out draw Fedor every single time. Keep in mind I'm one of the biggest Brock haters on this site as well. I'm just realistic.

You aren't done with us, because you haven't responded to half of whats been brought up. You are leaving the conversation because you can't substantiate your absurd claims.


----------



## Tenacious Cole (Aug 6, 2010)

Yeah I didn’t want to touch this, but hey a little controversy is fun.

Anyway, Before Fedor the legacy was Igor Vovanchyn, who later faded when the sport evolved, with a series of losses. A good example on what to expect in your career, as a sport progresses.

Fedor was the very next generation more or less; but I do think the sport has passed him by and he would not be able to hang with the top UFC heavyweights.

Not to discredit anyone, but Sylvia and Arlovski were completely finished mentally before they left the UFC and haven’t put on significant performances there in their last fights in the UFC or and fights after the UFC. (aside form maybe Arlovski-Nelson)

Arlovski vs Werdum at least gave Werdum a highlight shot of an open-palmed slap to Arlovski’s face. Which frankly was pathetic. Werdum then loses, and then loses against JDS in no time flat. Yes, the slap is a 'set-up' for other moves maybe- but not that one...

As far as Fedor’s other recent competition? Yeah.

You can’t take away from what Fedor has accomplished though and deny that for many, many years he was the absolute best in the sport. But unless he can prove it- I think he no longer is and should gracefully retire; cuz it’s better to burn out then fade away. Just being objective because what Fedor has accomplished is amazing and can’t be taken away from, but that was then and this is now.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Not really, I have been critical of Anderson Silva's ability to draw PPV's buys but I believe even he will out draw Fedor. (Anderson is the worst drawing champ in modern UFC history) Lets put it this way Anderson Silva fought Cote on a pretty weak card and Cote wasn't getting a whole lot of respect going into the fight, They did a better buy rate than either Affliction card and the Bodog PPV combined. Patrick Cote has drawn better PPV buys than Fedor. Like I said its not an insult but I doubt at this stage he will ever turn into a draw he is about 3 years to late.
> 
> 
> 
> You think Lesnar makes less than Fedor? LMAO, Dream is going under, SF isn't even on PPV neither of those companies could even afford Lesnar's pay cheque. You keep bringing up Lesnar's record of 5-2 like somehow being a great fighter directly translates to being a draw. Fedor could destroy Overeem and it still wouldn't change anything. The Japanses won't care because it happened in the US and the US won't care because it didn't happen in the UFC. Its like you can't dissociate being a great fighter from being a great draw. There is some magic formula where you need to connect to your audience some fighters like Chuck Liddell and Wanderlei Silva become beloved by the fans, others like Tito and Lesnar become hated but wether they are passionate about them winning or losing the fans need to see it. Fedor doesn't have either of these traits the casual fan doesn't know him, he doesn't speak english (instantly hurts drawing ability see Anderson Silva) he is a quite little Russian who looks like he should be scrubbing a toilet. Sorry there is such thing as the it factor and Fedor definitely does not have it.


Wtf are you talking about when did i say that Fedor makes more then Brock? 2010, i clearly stated 2006 witch was the biggest fight in MMA. You and your little Robin friend who replies after you are delusional Brock is done and his little gross 5 fights don't even compare to what Fedor has made in his overall career.




> I jumped on a plane and flew to some crazy island out in the middle of nowhere that, believe me, I did not want to go, sat down in a room with these guys and tried to hammer out a deal. It was a very, very respectful deal. Believe me when I tell you I tried to make this happen, and they know I did. They know I tried to make this fight happen and they didn't take it. It was insane that they did not take this deal.
> 
> He [Emelianenko] was there. It was the first time he and I had ever met face-to-face, and he we sat down, we hammered back and forth in this room for hours.
> 
> ...


Dana knows who the real MMA fighter is thats why he keeps trying every day to bad you have no idea what true skill is


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Wtf are you talking about when did i say that Fedor makes more then Brock? 2010, i clearly stated 2006 witch was the biggest fight in MMA. You and your little Robin friend who replies after you are delusional Brock is done and his little gross 5 fights don't even compare to what Fedor has made in his overall career.


So basicly your a huge Fedor nut hugger and a Brock hater.:thumb02:

As hard as you try it still wont make you right. Me and Toxic have had our disagreements and he's not always right, none of us are but clearly he won this debate and TBH i dont even know how it became a debate when the truth is obvious. PPV buys and attendance ARE tracked and the data is available.

If a fight with Fedor ever dose reach the top, it will be the fighter he faces that pushes it there not Fedor as the past has shown he just dose not bring in the type of numbers other fighters do.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

slapshot said:


> So basicly your a huge Fedor nut hugger and a Brock hater.:thumb02:
> 
> As hard as you try it still wont make you right. Me and Toxic have had our disagreements and he's not always right, none of us are but clearly he won this debate and TBH i dont even know how it became a debate when the truth is obvious. PPV buys and attendance ARE tracked and the data is available.
> 
> If a fight with Fedor ever dose reach the top, it will be the fighter he faces that pushes it there not Fedor as the past has shown he just dose not bring in the type of numbers other fighters do.


Or your a big UFC nuthugger, what was his debate that Cain vs Fedor won't be the biggest draw in ufc history ? Lol it's not that hard to understand that Brock was hyped so hype a fighter who is not garbage aka Fedor bigger gross.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Toxic said:


> I will agree to wear a Fedor sig for an entire year the day Fedor out draws Lesnar.
> 
> I have more fear of a Flaming rabid warthog flying through my living room window though. I am not hating Fedor, I like Fedor but I also am in touch with reality enough to understand he does not translate to PPV buys.


Warthogs are tiny though...


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Wtf are you talking about when did i say that Fedor makes more then Brock? 2010, i clearly stated 2006 witch was the biggest fight in MMA. You and your little Robin friend who replies after you are delusional Brock is done and his little gross 5 fights don't even compare to what Fedor has made in his overall career.


 Ok so my head is hurting, I am tryign to understand your though process. Are you saying Fedor made more money in 2006 than Brock makes now? If so your delusional. Lesnar is the bigger draw which allows him demand the biggest pay cheque. The UFC is a business you do understand that Cain isn't the UFC brass's number 1 HW. They may call Cain #1 but I guarantee that Lesnar is there favorite you know why? Cause he makes them money by the boatload. 




> Dana knows who the real MMA fighter is thats why he keeps trying every day to bad you have no idea what true skill is


Dana bent over backwards before Werdum beat Fedor because he wanted to sign him. Fedor had the chips then the hardcore fans were pestering the UFC about signing the undefeated Fedor, there HW champ at the time Couture left the company and made a public mess about fighting Fedor. Fedor fever was at its peak. Fedor just lost the mystique is gone and beating every HW in SF won't change that. The fighters Fedor would need to beat in order to rebuild that mystique are all in the UFC. Fedor post Werdum fight is worth pennies to the dollar of what he was worth to the UFC before the loss.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> I will agree to wear a Fedor sig for an entire year the day Fedor out draws Lesnar.
> 
> I have more fear of a Flaming rabid warthog flying through my living room window though. I am not hating Fedor, I like Fedor but I also am in touch with reality enough to understand he does not translate to PPV buys.


sO basically you'r going to start wearing Fedors sig when Brock's 6-3,who calls out Roy anyways what a bitch


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Ok so my head is hurting, I am tryign to understand your though process. Are you saying Fedor made more money in 2006 than Brock makes now? If so your delusional. Lesnar is the bigger draw which allows him demand the biggest pay cheque. The UFC is a business you do understand that Cain isn't the UFC brass's number 1 HW. They may call Cain #1 but I guarantee that Lesnar is there favorite you know why? Cause he makes them money by the boatload.
> 
> 
> 
> Dana bent over backwards before Werdum beat Fedor because he wanted to sign him. Fedor had the chips then the hardcore fans were pestering the UFC about signing the undefeated Fedor, there HW champ at the time Couture left the company and made a public mess about fighting Fedor. Fedor fever was at its peak. Fedor just lost the mystique is gone and beating every HW in SF won't change that. The fighters Fedor would need to beat in order to rebuild that mystique are all in the UFC. Fedor post Werdum fight is worth pennies to the dollar of what he was worth to the UFC before the loss.


Ok fine you win bro Fedor is done no way is he worth anything the great MMA fighter Brock Lesnar deserves to be the biggest draw.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Or your a big UFC nuthugger, what was his debate that Cain vs Fedor won't be the biggest draw in ufc history ? Lol it's not that hard to understand that Brock was hyped so hype a fighter who is not garbage aka Fedor bigger gross.


This is what you can't get through your head. Read this clearly.


Your saying Fedor is a better fighter than Lesnar and will therefore draw more money. This is not true. Anderson Silva is a better fighter than Forrest Griffen in fact he embarrassed him but Forrest is loved by the fans and draws more money. Being the better fighter does not directly correlate to drawing ability. There is no connection. Lesnar was 0-1 in the UFC and still drew huge numbers. Fedor was what 30-0 when he fought for Affliction and couldn't draw shit on two of the most stacked cards ever. You can debate Lesnar vs Fedor over who is the better fighter but that is not this discussion. The UFC can't hype Fedor that much, people knew Lesnar, not just MMA fans but WWE fans and just regular people. They knew him and took one look at him and assumed he was a monster. You can't build that kind of hype. 
The UFC did not build the Lesnar hype, Lesnar entered the UFC a household name, people everywhere already knew who Lesnar was. He also looks like a monster while Fedor does not. The UFC may have added to they hype but Lesnar had more hype entering the UFC than any fighter in history including guys like Cro Cop, Wandy, Shogun not from the UFC but from legitimate media sources. The WWE guy turned NFL player turned UFC fighter was news. Fedor could run through the middle of a Dallas Cowboys football game and he would just be another streaker.



Bknmax said:


> sO basically you'r going to start wearing Fedors sig when Brock's 6-3,who calls out Roy anyways what a bitch


 Nope because Lesnar could be 6-3 and fans will still pay to see him. When Fedor headlines a PPV that does over 1.6 million buys then I will rock that Fedor sig. Any one of Brocks PPV's drew more buys than every PPV Fedor has headlined combined. 



Bknmax said:


> Ok fine you win bro Fedor is done no way is he worth anything the great MMA fighter Brock Lesnar deserves to be the biggest draw.


I never said Lesnar deserves to be the biggest draw. This is what I keep trying to get through to you. Life isn't fair. You know how Cain Velasquez just destroyed Brock Lesnar? He probably won't draw as much money. Despite crushing Lesnar people won't line up the same way to see him. Again its not fair but I don't live in a fairy tale world were I think fans pay to see the two best in the world fight. They pay to see fighter they love fight fighters they hate. And people either love or hate Lesnar you will find very few people who are indifferent. At the end of the day whether they are buying to see him win or buying to see him lose as long as they are opening there wallets that is what matters.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Toxic said:


> This is what you can't get through your head. Read this clearly.
> 
> 
> Your saying Fedor is a better fighter than Lesnar and will therefore draw more money. This is not true. Anderson Silva is a better fighter than Forrest Griffen in fact he embarrassed him but Forrest is loved by the fans and draws more money. Being the better fighter does not directly correlate to drawing ability. There is no connection. Lesnar was 0-1 in the UFC and still drew huge numbers. Fedor was what 30-0 when he fought for Affliction and couldn't draw shit on two of the most stacked cards ever. You can debate Lesnar vs Fedor over who is the better fighter but that is not this discussion. The UFC can't hype Fedor that much, people knew Lesnar, not just MMA fans but WWE fans and just regular people. They knew him and took one look at him and assumed he was a monster. You can't build that kind of hype.
> ...



Toxic why are defending Lesnar its right he is a product of the UFC and yes he met a good fighter and got beaten down like he would if he met Fedor , Overeem and Junior hell even carwin could take in a rematch.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

***** de Amigo said:


> Toxic why are defending Lesnar its right he is a product of the UFC and yes he met a good fighter and got beaten down like he would if he met Fedor , Overeem and Junior hell even carwin could take in a rematch.


Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that the ability of a fighter to win fights does not make him a draw. I have never stated Lesnar was a better fighter or once defended him as a fighter in this thread. I have merely stated that the casual fans line up in record numbers to watch him fight which is true. 

Do people understand this? I feel like I am hitting my head against a brick wall. Somewhere baby jesus is crying.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

I wasn't saying Fedor draws more because he's a better fighter I'm saying it because he's a more popular fighter world wide, that being so makes me beleive that if Fedor leaves a second rate organization and fight in ufc you will see history not crap like Lesnar.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> I wasn't saying Fedor draws more because hea a better fighter I'm saying it because he's a more popular fighter world wide.


But the numbers PROVE other wise. Your basing it off speculation and nothing else. Lesnar has proven with the $$$ he has drawn that he is the biggest draw. You have absolutely nothing to back up your statement. You say Fedor is huge in Russia but when he fought there the numbers prove he wasn't a big draw. (likely MMA isn't big there) You say Fedor is bigger in Japan but Lesnar has only fought one fight (his first) there.. In the US where they have both competed Lesnar broke records while Fedor's PPV's bled money. How can you not see there is nothing for you to base this on but blind nut hugging.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Or your a big UFC nuthugger, what was his debate that Cain vs Fedor won't be the biggest draw in ufc history ? Lol it's not that hard to understand that Brock was hyped so hype a fighter who is not garbage aka Fedor bigger gross.


Whats not to hug? The UFC has 98% of the top fighters in the world and the best part is they actually fight other top fighters unlike strikeforce etc.


Lets be honest Fedor is a F L O P when it comes to popularity and that effects PPV and gate buys, hell he cant even get people to watch his fights when they are free much less competing with PPV's.

Brocks base doesn't come from MMA fans the majority of his fans come from the WWE so even if all your hype nonsense was accurate (and its not its just a opinion)but even if it was so, Brock will keep his fans base because thay aren't MMA fans they are Brock Lesnar fans.

He might lose some steam but it wont be a issue, his fans will still love him and he'll still outsell Fedor.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> But the numbers PROVE other wise. Your basing it off speculation and nothing else. Lesnar has proven with the $$$ he has drawn that he is the biggest draw. You have absolutely nothing to back up your statement. You say Fedor is huge in Russia but when he fought there the numbers prove he wasn't a big draw. (likely MMA isn't big there) You say Fedor is bigger in Japan but Lesnar has only fought one fight (his first) there.. In the US where they have both competed Lesnar broke records while Fedor's PPV's bled money. How can you not see there is nothing for you to base this on but blind nut hugging.


Lol that's where your confused your basing this on money gross I'm basing it on population, I'm RussiaN. Nobody in Russia will pay for ufc and no one gives a shit who lesnar is. Just because people didn't order a ufc event doesn't mean Brock is more popular then Fedor. Get over your little dream because when fedor vs jds or Cain happens you will be wearing that sig


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Lol that's where your confused your basing this on money gross I'm basing it on population, I'm RussiaN. Nobody in Russia will pay for ufc and no one gives a shit who lesnar is. Just because people didn't order a ufc event doesn't mean Brock is more popular then Fedor. Get over your little dream because when fedor vs jds or Cain happens you will be wearing that sig


Nobody in Russia will pay for UFC. I want you to stop and think about this and why you would use this as an argument as to why Fedor is the bigger draw. ( you just said they won't pay for UFC. People in other countries that do pay will pay to see Lesnar and neither know or care who Fedor is.). Now your making my arguments for me.


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

lol... this is by far the most one sided debate i have read in a while. 

Lesner even before he threw the first punch in the octagon already had way more fans/people that want to watch him (win or lose) then Fedor ever will. The WWE is/was Frickin huge, now add that with the fans/people that want to watch him and you reach numbers that fedors managers could only dream about. 

fedor had only two things going for him and that was his skill and that he was unbeaten, when he was beat, the chances of him ever even coming close to beating the ppv view buys of lesner went way out the window (notice how i said even coming close not beating lesners buys for i dont think he ever could)

Lesners size (man looks like a monster) his demenior, character, and wwe back graound will always draw more people to buy his cards, he could lose the next couple fights and still draw more then fedor vs cain. 

*A fighters skillset has nothing to do with how popular they are * 

but of course you wont understand this and will keep posting random things that dont make a lick of sense like you have for pages now


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Lol that's where your confused your basing this on money gross I'm basing it on population, I'm RussiaN. Nobody in Russia will pay for ufc and no one gives a shit who lesnar is. Just because people didn't order a ufc event doesn't mean Brock is more popular then Fedor. Get over your little dream because when fedor vs jds or Cain happens you will be wearing that sig


Like he said he has facts you have a idea and most people in Russia cant afford to buy a ppv even if they wanted to no matter who is fighting.


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Lol that's where your confused your basing this on money gross I'm basing it on population, I'm RussiaN. Nobody in Russia will pay for ufc and no one gives a shit who lesnar is. Just because people didn't order a ufc event doesn't mean Brock is more popular then Fedor. Get over your little dream because when fedor vs jds or Cain happens you will be wearing that sig


ok you are proving everyone right with this post, fedor is well known in russia and japan

brock is well known everywhere 

who buys more ppv and has a bigger fan base hmm lets see

japan and russia vs Everywhere 

yep you got us there no arguing with that logic


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Nobody in Russia will pay for UFC. I want you to stop and think about this and why you would use this as an argument as to why Fedor is the bigger draw. ( you just said they won't pay for UFC. People in other countries that do pay will pay to see Lesnar and neither know or care who Fedor is.). Now your making my arguments for me.


What other country watches lesnar more then Russian or japan watch Fedor ?Thx for proving my argument


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

The US, UK, Canada, I am guessing likely Australia, Mexico, China (UFC airs there, WWE is HUGE there) Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay and Venezuela, Philippines and likely Brazil. Considering Fedor didn't do well for Bodog in St Petersberg I am not sure what his popularity in Russia is good for besides helping you sleep at night. And like I said I would bet you a shit load of money that the Japanese would pay more to see Lesnar than Fedor in 2010 anyway.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Who else was champion for two organizations that folded like Fedor was for Affliction and Pride?

(was that point brought up I tried to go through this thread but all of these Brock threads are confusing and repetitive as ****)


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> What other country watches lesnar more then Russian or japan watch Fedor ?Thx for proving my argument


Did you fall on your head, I mean just look at what your saying.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> The US, UK, Canada, I am guessing likely Australia, Mexico, China (UFC airs there, WWE is HUGE there) Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay and Venezuela, Philippines and likely Brazil. Considering Fedor didn't do well for Bodog in St Petersberg I am not sure what his popularity in Russia is good for besides helping you sleep at night. And like I said I would bet you a shit load of money that the Japanese would pay more to see Lesnar than Fedor in 2010 anyway.


Ok lol Europe alone beats out all of those and it's not like the countries you named don't watch Fedor.And fedor is more popular in china then Brock so u basically randomly just posted countries since every one in brazil knows who fedor is .


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Ok lol Europe alone beats out all of those and it's not like the countries you named don't watch Fedor.And fedor is more popular in china then Brock so u basically randomly just posted countries since every one in brazil knows who fedor is .


You realize the UFC is 10 times bigger globally than Pride ever was. Over half the countries I named are countries neither Pride or Strikeforce have ever been broadcast in so how on earth do you start to claim they watch Fedor? I give up, I have tried to logically explain to you that the UFC is the largest MMA promotion in the world available to a vast audience that he never even heard of Fedor and you just ignore any resemblance of reality continue to claim Fedor is more popular. 

Do you realize the fact that globally the UFC has a much larger footprint than Pride ever had? You do realize the WWE is much larger globally than Pride ever was? You do realize Lesnar sold out the Tokyo dome in Japan as a pro wrestler. Yet you act like Lesnar is some guy the Japanese don't care about despite the fact they seem to have a cultural obsession with anything Big and American both of which Lesnar fits. That leaves Russia which you admit isn't going to pay to watch UFC anyways. 

I cannot explain this to you because your refusing to accept any logic.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Toxic said:


> You realize the UFC is 10 times bigger globally than Pride ever was. Over half the countries I named are countries neither Pride or Strikeforce have ever been broadcast in so how on earth do you start to claim they watch Fedor? I give up, I have tried to logically explain to you that the UFC is the largest MMA promotion in the world available to a vast audience that he never even heard of Fedor and you just ignore any resemblance of reality continue to claim Fedor is more popular.
> 
> Do you realize the fact that globally the UFC has a much larger footprint than Pride ever had? You do realize the WWE is much larger globally than Pride ever was? You do realize Lesnar sold out the Tokyo dome in Japan as a pro wrestler. Yet you act like Lesnar is some guy the Japanese don't care about despite the fact they seem to have a cultural obsession with anything Big and American both of which Lesnar fits. That leaves Russia which you admit isn't going to pay to watch UFC anyways.
> 
> I cannot explain this to you because your refusing to accept any logic.


summary of this thread- fedor cannot draw half as big as crowds as lesnar since he is in shitty lower tier organisations while brock is int the most exciting and popular and skillful organisation in the world plus he's a beast and he brings the huge wwe crowd with him.

close argument


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

/thread


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> You realize the UFC is 10 times bigger globally than Pride ever was. Over half the countries I named are countries neither Pride or Strikeforce have ever been broadcast in so how on earth do you start to claim they watch Fedor? I give up, I have tried to logically explain to you that the UFC is the largest MMA promotion in the world available to a vast audience that he never even heard of Fedor and you just ignore any resemblance of reality continue to claim Fedor is more popular.
> 
> Do you realize the fact that globally the UFC has a much larger footprint than Pride ever had? You do realize the WWE is much larger globally than Pride ever was? You do realize Lesnar sold out the Tokyo dome in Japan as a pro wrestler. Yet you act like Lesnar is some guy the Japanese don't care about despite the fact they seem to have a cultural obsession with anything Big and American both of which Lesnar fits. That leaves Russia which you admit isn't going to pay to watch UFC anyways.
> 
> I cannot explain this to you because your refusing to accept any logic.


No you keep changing the subject once again and a bunch of nuthuggers follow,did i say UFC wasn't the largest in the world?no i simply said that Fedor would average more then Brock would,and no shit Brock averages more then Fedor since he is the UFC.So your argument is basically that Brock isn;t better but he gets more people to watch him in the #1 organization in the world ? yeah no shit sherlock and my point is Fedor will average more get over it its my opinion


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

this one time i was going to get a sub from quiznos, but along the way I looked over as the lights at the stop began to change. i ordered my sub and ate it in seconds, the server gives me this weird look and it makes me uncomfortable. i leave and i never return to that same shop.

years later, i realize i did not get a sub from quiznos, but instead had lost my virginity.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> No you keep changing the subject once again and a bunch of nuthuggers follow,did i say UFC wasn't the largest in the world?no i simply said that Fedor would average more then Brock would,and no shit Brock averages more then Fedor since he is the UFC.So your argument is basically that Brock isn;t better but he gets more people to watch him in the #1 organization in the world ? yeah no shit sherlock and my point is Fedor will average more get over it its my opinion


But he wouldn't ever even if he was in the UFC. Brock is bigger than the UFC. That is what you don't seem to get. The UFC never did those kind of numbers before Brock. Everyone knows who Brock Lesnar is. He is a bigger star then anyone who has ever fought in the UFC and somehow you act like Fedor is just gonna walk in the door and surpass that. If Dana could just make an army of Brock Lesnar's we wouldn't have Jon Fitch's.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that the ability of a fighter to win fights does not make him a draw. I have never stated Lesnar was a better fighter or once defended him as a fighter in this thread. I have merely stated that the casual fans line up in record numbers to watch him fight which is true.
> 
> Do people understand this? I feel like I am hitting my head against a brick wall. Somewhere baby jesus is crying.


Obviously to the average moron he is more famous not deserving but yes he is more of a draw , but he will be irrelevant soon so lets concentrate on REAL fighters and not 290lbs amateurs.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Toxic said:


> But he wouldn't ever even if he was in the UFC. Brock is bigger than the UFC. That is what you don't seem to get. The UFC never did those kind of numbers before Brock. Everyone knows who Brock Lesnar is. He is a bigger star then anyone who has ever fought in the UFC and somehow you act like Fedor is just gonna walk in the door and surpass that. If Dana could just make an army of Brock Lesnar's we wouldn't have Jon Fitch's.


http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/CBS-Fedor-Rogers-Draws-546-Million-Viewers-20843

Fedor fighting in a less recognized org fighting a practical unknown drew over 5 mil views put him in there with the new mexican HW champ you do the ******* math.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> summary of this thread- fedor cannot draw half as big as crowds as lesnar since he is in shitty lower tier organisations while brock is int the most exciting and popular and skillful organisation in the world plus he's a beast and he brings the huge wwe crowd with him.
> 
> close argument


Atkeast your name and post dont have bias written all over it :sarcastic12:


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

***** de Amigo said:


> Obviously to the average moron he is more famous not deserving but yes he is more of a draw , but he will be irrelevant soon so lets concentrate on REAL fighters and not 290lbs amateurs.


alizo the point of what toxic is saying is that its good business sense.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

xeberus said:


> alizo the point of what toxic is saying is that its good business sense.


Its good business im not disputing but he is JUST BIG and thats it he faced Carwin scraped a win and then Cain whips his ass and finished what Shane started he is very overated. 

They will avoid giving him Carwin 2 , Cain and Junior for a while so he doesnt get his ass beat down.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/CBS-Fedor-Rogers-Draws-546-Million-Viewers-20843
> 
> Fedor fighting in a less recognized org fighting a practical unknown drew over 5 mil views put him in there with the new mexican HW champ you do the ******* math.


***** de Alizio has not noticed that Lesnar is the one with the fanbase. Cain definitely whooped Brocks ass but no matter how many mexicans pull for Cain, Brock will always be the bigger draw. You do the ******* math *****

It smells like tacos in here, what happened?


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Alizio your obsession with Brock is very unhealthy


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

RustyRenegade said:


> ***** de Alizio has not noticed that Lesnar is the one with the fanbase. Cain definitely whooped Brocks ass but no matter how many mexicans pull for Cain, Brock will always be the bigger draw. You do the ******* math *****
> 
> It smells like tacos in here, what happened?


I think you missed the point , but ill let you go back and try figure it out in the mean time , no matter how you look at it Lesnar without his size is nothing and with his size is still mediocre. Being popular means nothing if you suck ass mark my words he will be history in a year and a half that is if he actually comes back or fights some time within a year :thumb02:


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> Its good business im not disputing but he is JUST BIG and thats it he faced Carwin scraped a win and then Cain whips his ass and finished what Shane started he is very overated.
> 
> They will avoid giving him Carwin 2 , Cain and Junior for a while so he doesnt get his ass beat down.


If you were to toss Lesnar's salad would you use jam or salsa?

Kimbo never had success and was a huge draw and still would be. You're delusional.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> Alizio your obsession with Brock is very unhealthy


Im a passionate guy ive been a round for a few years watching MMA im glad its so popular and gets more coverage its great , but i hate all the idiots that Lesnar has brought along and i think he is a douche aswell.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> Im a passionate guy ive been a round for a few years watching MMA im glad its so popular and gets more coverage its great , but i hate all the idiots that Lesnar has brought along and i think he is a douche aswell.


Jam or salsa? I want to know goddamnit!? How passionate are you with a sphincter btw?


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

RustyRenegade said:


> If you were to toss Lesnar's salad would you use jam or salsa?
> 
> Kimbo never had success and was a huge draw and still would be. You're delusional.


again like i said BEING POPULAR MEANS jack shit , Justin bieber is popular but is he a good singer ? only in combat sport its more cut throat he cant be a draw forever he will be phased out and battered into oblivion and i love it.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> again like i said BEING POPULAR MEANS jack shit , Justin bieber is popular but is he a good singer ? only in combat sport its more cut throat he cant be a draw forever he will be phased out and battered into oblivion and i love it.


What about the salad?


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> Im a passionate guy ive been a round for a few years watching MMA im glad its so popular and gets more coverage its great , but i hate all the idiots that Lesnar has brought along and i think he is a douche aswell.


if you want douche fans then go to a youtube video with ufc heavyweights or a fedor vid and the fedor fans will boil your blood badly


***** de Amigo said:


> again like i said BEING POPULAR MEANS jack shit , Justin bieber is popular but is he a good singer ? only in combat sport its more cut throat he cant be a draw forever he will be phased out and battered into oblivion and i love it.


i only agree that justin bieber is what is wrong with music these days, i hate him but thats another issue


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

xeberus said:


> alizo the point of what toxic is saying is that its good business sense.


Just found out what Alizio is , and you will be happy to know i am not him but nice try on getting me banned.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

its good to know that we can all still agree one something.











edit:


***** de Amigo said:


> Just found out what Alizio is , and you will be happy to know i am not him but nice try on getting me banned.


yea.. i meant to say amigo, instead of alizo. didn't realize until like a min later when i came back. dont get me wrong i think you are alizo, but it doesn't bother me.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

xeberus said:


> its good to know that we can all still agree one something.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> Just found out what Alizio is , and you will be happy to know i am not him but nice try on getting me banned.


You aren't fooling anyone alizio.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

haha owned :thumb02:


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

RustyRenegade said:


> You aren't fooling anyone alizio.


Can we talk MMA now instead of petty insults ?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Guys I looked into it and am satisfied that he is in fact not Alizio.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Guys I looked into it and am satisfied that he is in fact not Alizio.


you'll know if the ip addresses match, then again it is really easy to change your ip


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

not even the same continent. And I talked to him so leave it alone guys.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Guys I looked into it and am satisfied that he is in fact not Alizio.


It wouldn't be the first time I wrongly accused someone


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

***** de Amigo said:


> http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/CBS-Fedor-Rogers-Draws-546-Million-Viewers-20843
> 
> Fedor fighting in a less recognized org fighting a practical unknown drew over 5 mil views put him in there with the new mexican HW champ you do the ******* math.


Do you realize 5million on CBS is not that great? It puts it in the middle of the CBS fights for US views. Scott Smith vs Robbie Lawler did better numbers and Kimbo Slice mopped the floor with it. Hell Hendo/Rampage, Tito Shamrock and Bisping/Hammill all drew more views and those 3 were on Spike which is available even substantially more homes (about 20 million) and CBS is a much more popular station that generally maintains a much larger share. When you consider it was SF's CBS debut that was heavily hyped the numbers are actually kinda bad.

Cain/Nog scored one of the lowest buy rates in recent UFC history (Mir/Cro Cop did better) so Cain's drawing power is yet to be seen. Surely he will get a massive boost from his new fan base he made smashing Lesnar but what kind of numbers are we talking have yet to be seen. I would expect Cain will start drawing anywhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 depending on who he is fighting.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Do you realize 5million on CBS is not that great? It puts it in the middle of the CBS fights for US views. Scott Smith vs Robbie Lawler did better numbers and Kimbo Slice mopped the floor with it. Hell Hendo/Rampage, Tito Shamrock and Bisping/Hammill all drew more views and those 3 were on Spike which is available even substantially more homes (about 20 million) and CBS is a much more popular station that generally maintains a much larger share. When you consider it was SF's CBS debut that was heavily hyped the numbers are actually kinda bad.


also mayhem miller vs shields in a title fight was on that card and i think everyone wanted to see that more.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

You know who also gets five million viewers a week


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

John8204 said:


> You know who also gets five million viewers a week


Now if we got to see Her vs Brett Rogers that shit would draw some serious viewers.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Now if we got to see Her vs Brett Rogers that shit would draw some serious viewers.


Jens Pulver would be a better match up.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

John8204 said:


> Jens Pulver would be a better match up.


I would be to afraid, Jens loses to everyone and that shit is sad enough. I think half the board would have a mass suicide if he lost to her.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Toxic said:


> I would be to afraid, Jens loses to everyone and that shit is sad enough. I think half the board would have a mass suicide if he lost to her.


If it knocks off half the Brock threads on page one wouldn't it be worth it.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Snooki want smoosh smoosh.


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## suffersystem (Feb 4, 2007)

Toxic said:


> I would be to afraid, Jens loses to everyone and that shit is sad enough. I think half the board would have a mass suicide if he lost to her.


personally I think she has a glass chin. That one dude knocked her outand it was more of a jab than anything, lmao.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

John8204 said:


> You know who also gets five million viewers a week


So what your saying is the so called not known Fedor comes into the US fights in a second rate organzitaion against Werdum and averages the same as snookie, hmmm kinda makes you think what would happen if he went to the UFC and brought his fan base.
Its a joke that you people actually believe what Toxic is saying lol ask any real MMA fighter or ask Dana and he will easily tell you that he can make Fedor vs Cain the biggest fight in mma history.Hell they can host it in Mexico or Russia i will never agree with Toxic because he has no idea what hes talking about.Brock is done and his fan base were a bunch of red neck retards who know nothing about MMA, theres a reason why i predicted Cain Ko Round 1 because you can tell how fighters fight.Emelianenko built his reputation and did his best work while MMA was still in its so-called dark ages something Brock will never have.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> So what your saying is the so called not known Fedor comes into the US fights in a second rate organzitaion against Werdum and averages the same as snookie, hmmm kinda makes you think what would happen if he went to the UFC and brought his fan base.
> Its a joke that you people actually believe what Toxic is saying lol ask any real MMA fighter or ask Dana and he will easily tell you that he can make Fedor vs Cain the biggest fight in mma history.Hell they can host it in Mexico or Russia i will never agree with Toxic because he has no idea what hes talking about.*Brock is done and his fan base were a bunch of red neck retards who know nothing about MMA,* theres a reason why i predicted Cain Ko Round 1 because you can tell how fighters fight.Emelianenko built his reputation and did his best work while MMA was still in its so-called dark ages something Brock will never have.


Well i certainly dont fall into the catagory of retarded red-neck, but then again i may just be the exception that proves the rule.

Secondly, this often-stated belief around here that Brock is 'done'. I'm sorry, but i seriously see no logic behind this statement. People are unbelievably hard on Brock Lesnar as a MMAritst, and i really cant understand why.

Was it the fact that a 'fake wrestler' actually walked into the number 1 MMA Promotion in the world and confidently beat upper echelon fighters, such as Frank Mir and Randy Couture? Why must people use Brocks background as an excuse to hate on him, i was far more inclined to celebrate him as the incredibly gifted specimen he undoubtedly is. I suppose the UFC 100 incident could be another reason to hate, but really, people do make mistakes, and he has never shown any behaviour similar to that outside of a situation involving Frank Mir. Very classy in defeat to Cain as well might i add. 

Brock Lesnar is far from done. He convincingly dominated Heath Herring (who could still be a strong top 10 UFC HW if he returned) Frank Mir (who has been hovering around the title picture for as long as i can remember) and Randy Couture (what needs to be said?). 

Oh yeah, and he did this with very little experience and 1 fight outside of the UFC. He has improved dramatically since then. The reason he hasnt shown these stark improvements is because every fight his competition has improved, until he has met who is probably the number 1 HW in the world in Mr Velasquez. The guys Brock is fighting (and in the most part, beating) are the ELITE OF WORLD MMA HW's. There are people on TUF who have more experience than Brock, and yet he still gets results and succeeds.

Brock will be back in title contention very soon. There is no doubt in my mind. The hate he gets for giving something a go and excelling beyond anyones wildest belief is staggering. 


And as for Fedor...well, i personally could care less at this point. M-1 has seen to that. And i believe he is (or rather, his management)in fact ducking Allistair Overreem. 



Rant over :thumb02:


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> So what your saying is the so called not known Fedor comes into the US fights in a second rate organzitaion against Werdum and averages the same as snookie, hmmm kinda makes you think what would happen if he went to the UFC and brought his fan base.
> Its a joke that you people actually believe what Toxic is saying lol ask any real MMA fighter or ask Dana and he will easily tell you that he can make Fedor vs Cain the biggest fight in mma history.Hell they can host it in Mexico or Russia i will never agree with Toxic because he has no idea what hes talking about.Brock is done and his fan base were a bunch of red neck retards who know nothing about MMA, theres a reason why i predicted Cain Ko Round 1 because you can tell how fighters fight.Emelianenko built his reputation and did his best work while MMA was still in its so-called dark ages something Brock will never have.



I still think you can't build a "biggest fight in mma history" when one of the guy just lost. Even more important is Cain; he not a proven draw yet, which really hinders your argument.

Put it this way, I am on the only mma fan at work, but there are about 5 other fair-weather fans that actually watch the events on a regular basis, they just don't really pay attention to lesser names. I was approached a few times before UFC 121 and asked "who is Brock fighting again?".

"Who is Brock fighting again?"

Cain could be a star and he very well may be, but at this point if you subtract one fight he is a nobody. 

Fedor would have had the biggest fight in mma history when the Couture hype happened. 

If he had managed to get a match with Brock you have USA vs. Russia. 

A match with Cain would still be big but I just don't see how it would turn into the biggest fight in mma history. 



A nobody and someone coming off a loss =/= greatest selling mma fight of all time.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> So what your saying is the so called not known Fedor comes into the US fights in a second rate organzitaion against Werdum and averages the same as snookie, hmmm kinda makes you think what would happen if he went to the UFC and brought his fan base.


 Wowsers really he can draw worse numbers for the UFC than Bisping and Hamill did? That will show me!!!! SF may be a second rate promotion but it was there biggest show to date on a first rate Network. Bisping and Hammill did better numbers despite them being on a third rate UFC show on a second rate network available in 20 million less homes. 


> Its a joke that you people actually believe what Toxic is saying lol


 They aren't believing what I tell them, they are capable of examining FACTS and making logical conclusions instead of just letting there mind wander in the land of fairy's and unicorns.


> ask any real MMA fighter or ask Dana and he will easily tell you that he can make Fedor vs Cain the biggest fight in mma history.Hell they can host it in Mexico or Russia


 Reminding you again for the last time Fedor failed to draw last time he fought in Russia. Why would this one be different? Could they sell out in Mexico? Likely since I am sure Cain got a huge rub from beating Lesnar.


> i will never agree with Toxic because he has no idea what hes talking about.Brock is done and his fan base were a bunch of red neck retards who know nothing about MMA,


 ******* retard money buys a bigger house than Russian money. I am sure Dana stays up at night weeping into his piles of cash crying his eyes out because all those millions ******* dollars he made.


> theres a reason why i predicted Cain Ko Round 1 because you can tell how fighters fight.


 Completely irrelevent. You keep dismissing Lesnar as a fighter which has nothing to do witht the fact he is popular. When Lesnar was 0-1 in the UFC he was still the biggest draw. Lesnar is a star for being Brock Lesnar not because people think he is the best.


> Emelianenko built his reputation and did his best work while MMA was still in its so-called dark ages something Brock will never have.


 Yeah but something that doesn't matter to 99% of fans who don't post on message boards. Your average fan doesn't care about the dark days, and they care more about the WWE than they do about Pride. It may not be fair, Fedor may deserve to be the biggest draw ever but its not reality. In reality wether or not Lesnar deserves to draw ten cents. He is the ratings king. In MMA Lesnar is the biggest draw EVER.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Moscow is the city with the most billionaires in the world. Your red neck Peanut owning nobodys are shitnumbers compared to what would happen if Cain vs Fedor happened in Mosow hosted by Dana.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Moscow is the city with the most billionaires in the world. Your red neck Peanut owning nobodys are shitnumbers compared to what would happen if Cain vs Fedor happened in Mosow hosted by Dana.


Yeah and the average Canadian or American makes more in 2 months than the average Russian makes in a year. You think the UFC makes the money of millionaires? No they make it of your average person.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Yeah and the average Canadian or American makes more in 2 months than the average Russian makes in a year. You think the UFC makes the money of millionaires? No they make it of your average person.


And that's what I'm trying to tell you take all your average fans since they watch UFC combine them with Cains Mexican fans and take the fight to Moscow like Dana does with the UK fans. Here's an example what an average mma fan doesn't know Vadim Fink has Stocks in about 15 different companies one example 10 % of templatemonster.com the number one template company in the world you think he needs Fedor ? Their friends comrades.My point is if they some how come to terms they easily make one of the biggest fights in Mma. Only if fedor wins the sf title though


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

The UK fights draw horrible numbers. There is more to being a draw then selling out an arena.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> The UK fights draw horrible numbers. There is more to being a draw then selling out an arena.


U missed my point again sigh


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

*Completely irrelevent. You keep dismissing Lesnar as a fighter which has nothing to do witht the fact he is popular. When Lesnar was 0-1 in the UFC he was still the biggest draw. Lesnar is a star for being Brock Lesnar not because people think he is the best.* - Toxic.

If people are still struggling to comprehend the point of this argument, just read the above phrase repeatedly until it sinks in. It will do, eventually.

Lesnar is a proven draw. Fedor, not so much. Talent isnt as important as star power when selling an event - its the personalities involved.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> And that's what I'm trying to tell you take all your average fans since they watch UFC


 The average fan does not watch every UFC.


> combine them with Cains Mexican fans


 Cain has not proven to be a draw. Carwin vs Lesnar drew more fans.


> and take the fight to Moscow like Dana does with the UK fans.


 Ok but they don`t put on hure UK cards they are ussually second rate cards.


> Here's an example what an average mma fan doesn't know Vadim Fink has Stocks in about 15 different companies one example 10 % of templatemonster.com the number one template company in the world you think he needs Fedor ?


 And you accuse me of going on tangents?


> Their friends comrades.My point is if they some how come to terms they easily make one of the biggest fights in Mma. Only if fedor wins the sf title though


 So Finks freinds are gonna make it the biggest UFC of all time? If dude was so popular you think M-1 would be bigger. There is a reason that Finklesteing who has Fedor`s contract doesn`t put a Fedor fight on in Russia himself. But then obviously he just isn`t as good a businessman as you.

and BKN I am not missing your point, I am not even sure you have one. Your missing everyones point.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> The average fan does not watch every UFC. Cain has not proven to be a draw. Carwin vs Lesnar drew more fans. Ok but they don`t put on hure UK cards they are ussually second rate cards. And you accuse me of going on tangents? So Finks freinds are gonna make it the biggest UFC of all time? If dude was so popular you think M-1 would be bigger. There is a reason that Finklesteing who has Fedor`s contract doesn`t put a Fedor fight on in Russia himself. But then obviously he just isn`t as good a businessman as you.
> 
> and BKN I am not missing your point, I am not even sure you have one. Your missing everyones point.


Um no Dana and Finks will and all their partners ,it's not Finks fault Dana is a greedy ****, and my point is I'm mentioning 4 fan bases and all your doing is talking about the same over played point on how a nobody like Brock averages more then Fedor in the # 1 organization .


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Um no Dana and Finks will and all their partners ,it's not Finks fault Dana is a greedy ****, and my point is I'm mentioning 4 fan bases and all your doing is talking about the same over played point on how a nobody like Brock averages more then Fedor in the # 1 organization .


Your talking about 2 fan basis that have never drawn money and two guys freinds. Fedor is not a draw, Kimbo drew more fighting for a second rate organization, Scott Smith and Robbie Lawler drew more. I don`t need to mention all these different fan basis because you don`t draw record numbers by playing to a sector you set record numbers with Mass appeal something Lesnar brings that Fedor has NEVER done. I am sorry do you realize how comical it is that you think that Dana and Finks freinds are even relevant when discussing who is a bigger draw.

Aflicition had the Fedor fans, Finks fan club and Donald Freaking Trump. I guess you counting on Cain bringing in the other 1.6 million buyrate?


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Your talking about 2 fan basis that have never drawn money and two guys freinds. Fedor is not a draw, Kimbo drew more fighting for a second rate organization, Scott Smith and Robbie Lawler drew more. I don`t need to mention all these different fan basis because you don`t draw record numbers by playing to a sector you set record numbers with Mass appeal something Lesnar brings that Fedor has NEVER done. I am sorry do you realize how comical it is that you think that Dana and Finks freinds are even relevant when discussing who is a bigger draw.


W/e I think your wrong because Fedor hasn't fought anyone relevant since Cro cop and still averages good numbers. So you can't really say what would happen if Fedor fights JDS in Brazil possibilities are endless .


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> W/e I think your wrong because Fedor hasn't fought anyone relevant since Cro cop and still averages good numbers. So you can't really say what would happen if Fedor fights JDS in Brazil possibilities are endless .


Take a look at Cain Velasquez`s numbers when he fought Nog. This is what you don`t get to the casual fans before Cain fought Lesnar he was nobody. Fedor hasn`t fought anybody? Andrei Arlovski was a fairly good draw in the UFC with the PPV`s he headlined typically doing almost double what Velasquez and Nog did and the average PPV rate has grown since that time. You can keep making stories up all day but I will keep shooting them down all day to because the facts and numbers are on my side. Arlovski and Tim Sylvia drew way more money together than they did with Fedor.

Alright see, the built in audience for the UFC is about 250,000 buys, they will do that regardless of who is fighting. Affliction did around 100,000 buys for there two shows. Sylvia and Arlovski drew 450,00 and 750,000 (Shamrock and Tito were likely responsible for the higher numbers on this one). That still means that the number of fans above the guaranteed audience was double what the entire super stacked Affliction card drew.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Take a look at Cain Velasquez`s numbers when he fought Nog. This is what you don`t get to the casual fans before Cain fought Lesnar he was nobody. Fedor hasn`t fought anybody? Andrei Arlovski was a fairly good draw in the UFC with the PPV`s he headlined typically doing almost double what Velasquez and Nog did and the average PPV rate has grown since that time. You can keep making stories up all day but I will keep shooting them down all day to because the facts and numbers are on my side. Arlovski and Tim Sylvia drew way more money together than they did with Fedor.
> 
> .


. 

How can u still not understand what I'm saying Arlovski and Tim averaged for the UFC Fedor doesn't, fighting in affliction for a fake belt meant nothing irrelevant. Fedor fighting in the UFC for the hw title against Cain or Jds is a completely different story and you need to realize that .


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

And you need to realize that because Fedor hasnt, nothing he has done matters. His entire career means NOTHING to the average fan. `He doesn`t speak English which instantly kills his drawing power as it has to all non English speaking fighters. He doesn`t have anything really going for him from a marketability stand point. no english means no smacktalk, his look is bland,no gimmick (Rampages chain and howling shtick, Machida`s karate thing) and he is from Russia which still has some weird stereotypes around it. Fedor has zero going for him as far as marketing but somehow you think he can be king. Everything about Fedor besides his fights is boring. Fedor is a boring human being who happens to put on good fights. Chael Sonnen is a relatively boring fighter but people pay to see him fight because he is an interesting person and a loudmouth. Everything you have brought up as to support your argument is either a lie, irrelevant or completely baseless. You have yet to make a single valid argument for your case.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> And you need to realize that because Fedor hasnt, nothing he has done matters. His entire career means NOTHING to the average fan. `He doesn`t speak English which instantly kills his drawing power as it has to all non English speaking fighters. He doesn`t have anything really going for him from a marketability stand point. no english means no smacktalk, his look is bland,no gimmick (Rampages chain and howling shtick, Machida`s karate thing) and he is from Russia which still has some weird stereotypes around it. Fedor has zero going for him as far as marketing but somehow you think he can be king. Everything about Fedor besides his fights is boring. Fedor is a boring human being who happens to put on good fights. Chael Sonnen is a relatively boring fighter but people pay to see him fight because he is an interesting person and a loudmouth. Everything you have brought up as to support your argument is either a lie, irrelevant or completely baseless. You have yet to make a single valid argument for your case.


wow Joke reply who the **** is Chael sonnen like Brock said lol,it's a good thing Fedor is an Mma fighter and not a comedian and once again Boring to American fanbase but people in America still watch him right. Fedor has zero going for him your right


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> wow Joke reply who the **** is Chael sonnen like Brock said lol,it's a good thing Fedor is an Mma fighter and not a comedian and once again Boring to American fanbase but people in America still watch him right. Fedor has zero going for him your right


But people in america don`t watch him fight. Where do you get the idea they do? The numbers show they don`t care about him. Who the **** is Chael Sonnen? The guy who has sold a hell of alot more PPV`s than Fedor thats who. You can mock Sonnen`s comedian crap but it sold fights. There is more to being a draw than what happens in the cage. Great fighters win fights, great draws sell tickets, they sell PPV`s. Its part marketing, part look, interviews its all relevant.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> But people in america don`t watch him fight. Where do you get the idea they do? The numbers show they don`t care about him. Who the **** is Chael Sonnen? The guy who has sold a hell of alot more PPV`s than Fedor thats who. You can mock Sonnen`s comedian crap but it sold fights. There is more to being a draw than what happens in the cage. Great fighters win fights, great draws sell tickets, they sell PPV`s. Its part marketing, part look, interviews its all relevant.


your right people in America don't watch him fight must be a jersey thing


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> your right people in America don't watch him fight must be a jersey thing


Maybe it is because I have never seen a numbers breakdown region by region but the numbers prove nobody cares about him.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

I can't believe this is still even an argument.

If Fedor went to the UFC and Dana marketted the shit out of the guy, the fights still wouldn't sell like Brock and other more marketable people. This in no way reflects the skills of Fedor.

/Thread


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

People love freak shows the whole world over.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Although I've been spreading I still can't neg bkniwax. back up would be appreciated


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## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

'Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it' - *Ferris Bueller*

I live in the US. . i would classify myself as a 'Casual' fan.. 

'PrideFC' is what got me hooked.. and Fedor ruled !

But .. as of now.. ever since Zuffa bought out PrideFC .. the landscape has changed .. The marketing is different.. fighters have moved on to different organizations.. etc ..

*1*. For the 'Casual' fans like me who got into MMA back in the days of PrideFC .. Fedor still rules and matters ..

*2*. For the 'Casual' fans who just got into MMA during UFC's reign.. Fedor is not of any significance.. 

*3*. Enthusiasts understand Fedor's impact on the MMA scene.. but realize because of the organization he is currently with.. he is not marketed correctly.. thus he is losing steam.. 

Ultimately.. if Fedor was ever signed by the UFC .. i believe he could draw just as much/if not more than Brock Lesnar.. BUT .. he would have to be successful and build a fan base.. 

Personally.. i like Fedor.. but it's a shame he is not with the UFC .. and his manager seems to be too selective of his opponents.. 

Lastly.. it's impossible to compare Brock vs. Fedor in terms of PPV buys.. because there is no data for Pride's PPV .. it is not published..


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

RustyRenegade said:


> Although I've been spreading I still can't neg bkniwax. back up would be appreciated


Whatever helps u sleep at night bro


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

ahartleyvu said:


> Let's see... Fedor doesn't fight in the top fighting organization and has barely fought the toughest competition in that organization.
> 
> Win vs Brett Rogers.. (11-2; only has one decent win vs Arlovski)
> Win vs Andrei Arlovski... (15-8; lost last 3 matches)
> ...


It says a lot actually, take Arlovski for example, he fights his way to become Champion in the UFC but then leaves the UFC and gets his ass handed to him by Fedor and everyone at SF, shame the opinion is that Arlovski is not that good, when the truth is the fights he is having outside the UFC are much tougher than the ones he was having inside the UFC.

Rogers next, yiou say the only decent win is against Arlovski, so you mean he has to beat an ex-UFC fighter in order for you to recognise a win as been decent.

I made you red btw


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

Really is pointless trying to debate the credibility of fighter records, there are all sorts of variables which were relevant at fight time 2 or 5 or 10 years ago but aren't realised or discussed now.

End of the day, EVERYONE from all directions on Fedor, love him hate him don't really care, they all know deep down he SHOULD be in the UFC, or this argument wouldn't be happening.

Team Fedor has stayed away from Lesnar who was THE heavyweight to go after, don't matter if he got exposed he was the dude up until that point, Team Fedor have waited for someone else to beat him, then opened their mouths making out it was never worth going after him. You can choose to whether to take that perspective or not, that is what has happened.

Every promotion will have great fighters, it comes with the territory if you have a collection of 75 or 100 fighters, there are going to be some good ones in there. But the UFC undoubtedly has the higher concentration of great fighters and it always has new guys bubbling underneath until another great one breaks through. UFC got there first it is the place to be if you fight in MMA, and is undoubtedly where you should be if you're carrying the reputation of best heavyweight of current and all time.

Yes Fedor beat Arlovski who was a UFC Champ great, Arlovski would get his ass handed to him in UFC now. Would Fedor too?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

RudeBoySes said:


> 'Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it' - *Ferris Bueller*
> 
> I live in the US. . i would classify myself as a 'Casual' fan..
> 
> ...


Dude, you post on a MMA message board sorry to break it to you but that makes you a little more than a casual fan. When people think of a casual fan they mean people who will go to the bar and watch the fight sometimes depending on whose fighting. They know who maybe half the people on the main card are and don't really follow the sport. The "casual fan" is usually the type of guy who refers to all MMA as UFC.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

RudeBoySes said:


> 'Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it' - *Ferris Bueller*
> 
> I live in the US. . i would classify myself as a 'Casual' fan..
> 
> ...


Dude, you post on a MMA message board sorry to break it to you but that makes you a little more than a casual fan. When people think of a casual fan they mean people who will go to the bar and watch the fight sometimes depending on whose fighting. They know who maybe half the people on the main card are and don't really follow the sport. The "casual fan" is usually the type of guy who refers to all MMA as UFC.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

RudeBoySes said:


> I live in the US. . i would classify myself as a 'Casual' fan..
> 
> 'PrideFC' is what got me hooked.. and Fedor ruled !


Like you say time changes everything and the true casual fan wont care about Fedor because he's low on the publicity pole.


RudeBoySes said:


> But .. as of now.. ever since Zuffa bought out PrideFC .. the landscape has changed .. The marketing is different.. fighters have moved on to different organizations.. etc ..


Most fighter do not "move on" they get cut and fighters like Diaz who chose not to be in the UFC are far and few between. Just about every fighter that gets cut from the UFC has proven them right for cutting them with very few exceptions.


RudeBoySes said:


> *1*. For the 'Casual' fans like me who got into MMA back in the days of PrideFC .. Fedor still rules and matters ..


Im going to have to disagree not only to the point of being a casual fan but that Fedor matters, his fan base is dwindling, I got into MMA back in the day and I think Fedor is two maybe three fights from retirement because he is irelovent the way the MMA landscape stands now. 


RudeBoySes said:


> *2*. For the 'Casual' fans who just got into MMA during UFC's reign.. Fedor is not of any significance..


What has he done to make himself significant to anyone at this point? You know he's not getting any younger and the fighters coming up now are so well rounded. 


RudeBoySes said:


> *3*. Enthusiasts understand Fedor's impact on the MMA scene.. but realize because of the organization he is currently with.. he is not marketed correctly.. thus he is losing steam..


And they also realize the impact he made is in the past. The truth of the matter is fedor is on his way out and nobody wants to hype a past legend and have another crocop like failure. 


RudeBoySes said:


> Ultimately.. if Fedor was ever signed by the UFC .. i believe he could draw just as much/if not more than Brock Lesnar.. BUT .. he would have to be successful and build a fan base..


I would totally agree with this if Fedor was 29 or even 32 but there is just not enough time left in his MMA career to beat out Brocks numbers besides that was not the topic of dispute, he would not be able to go to Russia and out sell Brock in gate and PPV's. Russia has no middle class and thats who buys PPV fights.


RudeBoySes said:


> Personally.. i like Fedor.. but it's a shame he is not with the UFC .. and his manager seems to be too selective of his opponents..


I agree and its another reason he's losing his hardcore fans, the only fans he really has BTW.



RudeBoySes said:


> Lastly.. it's impossible to compare Brock vs. Fedor in terms of PPV buys.. because there is no data for Pride's PPV .. it is not published..


And thats not the only way to gage Fedors marketability, He's been on FREE tv and not some chump station we are talking about NBC and it tanked.

I honestly dont know the numbers but if you cant pull viewers on free tv thats piped into almost every home in america you have problems. 

I know we can find the NBC numbers so there is a reference point for what Fador can pull and its table scrapes compared to Brock.

You guys have a lot of "IF's"

If Fedor came to the UFC. 

If he wins his first few fights and dont think Dana wont throw the sink at him right off the bat, we know Dana will pay someone just to make a point. Dana would want Fedor to fail, thats just Dana.

So if he dose all that then he has to win a title shot.

Then IMO to get ppls attention he would need to beat the champ (I honestly dont think he can at this point.)and then he could build a fan base but guess what by that time he'll be what 38 or 39 its just not going to happen.



Toxic said:


> Dude, you post on a MMA message board sorry to break it to you but that makes you a little more than a casual fan. When people think of a casual fan they mean people who will go to the bar and watch the fight sometimes depending on whose fighting. They know who maybe half the people on the main card are and don't really follow the sport. The "casual fan" is usually the type of guy who refers to all MMA as UFC.


http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0908/stereotypes-french-hairy-armpit-america-*******-stereotype-demotivational-poster-1251196854.jpg
I know toxic goes nuts for chicks with pit hair so...


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## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Dude, you post on a MMA message board sorry to break it to you but that makes you a little more than a casual fan. When people think of a casual fan they mean people who will go to the bar and watch the fight sometimes depending on whose fighting. They know who maybe half the people on the main card are and don't really follow the sport. The "casual fan" is usually the type of guy who refers to all MMA as UFC.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

LOL, can you make sig's?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Why is that Mexican calling my name?


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...Fedor's team doesn't have a leg to stand on. Now going after Brock is not cool. If they dare talk about the UFC, then send in Fedor and stop playing political games. They are ducking. If they kept their mouths shut, it would be a little different. At this point, there are two ways Fedor can prove himself and his legacy: 1- Fight Overeem and beat him. or 2- Join the UFC and take on the best competition on the planet. The more they play games I think the more it takes away from Fedor's legacy. M-1 and his team are closing Fedor's door with each passing month. I wouldn't want to see Fedor go out that way...


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## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

BrutalKO said:


> ...Fedor's team doesn't have a leg to stand on. Now going after Brock is not cool. If they dare talk about the UFC, then send in Fedor and stop playing political games. They are ducking. If they kept their mouths shut, it would be a little different. At this point, there are two ways Fedor can prove himself and his legacy: 1- Fight Overeem and beat him. or 2- Join the UFC and take on the best competition on the planet. The more they play games I think the more it takes away from Fedor's legacy. M-1 and his team are closing Fedor's door with each passing month. I wouldn't want to see Fedor go out that way...


i agree with most of your comment..

I also tend to believe that Fedor's team has been doing a bit of 'selective' match ups ..

Now.. since it is Fedor.. i am willing to give him the benefit.. 

*All i want is to see Fedor and Alistair Overeem fight in the UFC .. *


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Why is that Mexican calling my name?


LOL! :laugh:


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Why is that Mexican calling my name?


I don't understand the picture either


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Ape City said:


> I don't understand the picture either


My guess is the sign the guy is holding?


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> It says a lot actually, take Arlovski for example, he fights his way to become Champion in the UFC but then leaves the UFC and gets his ass handed to him by Fedor and everyone at SF, shame the opinion is that Arlovski is not that good, when the truth is the fights he is having outside the UFC are much tougher than the ones he was having inside the UFC.
> 
> Rogers next, yiou say the only decent win is against Arlovski, so you mean he has to beat an ex-UFC fighter in order for you to recognise a win as been decent.
> 
> I made you red btw


Arlovski IS (was, before his chin shit out on him) decent. Fedor is supposedly the best fighter on the planet. Decent competition doesn't cut it. Arlovski for Rogers is a good test as they're about the same level, Rogers a bit lower. Neither of them, however, should be placed in the same league as the UFC IMO. Andrei's skill is great but he has a massive Achilles heel in his chin, especially since he's a stand up fighter. Rogers is still rough as hell, but he's go tpower and some heart that gives him potential to be a solid fighter. Skill, however, is not measured in potential. Especially when fighting "the greatest fighter on the planet."

Now, I want to say that me saying this has to do with Fedor's current (pre-loss) ranking, not his all-time standing. All-time, yes, he's the greatest HW on the planet. Right now? Not so much.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> Arlovski IS (was, before his chin shit out on him) decent. Fedor is supposedly the best fighter on the planet. Decent competition doesn't cut it. Arlovski for Rogers is a good test as they're about the same level, Rogers a bit lower. Neither of them, however, should be placed in the same league as the UFC IMO. Andrei's skill is great but he has a massive Achilles heel in his chin, especially since he's a stand up fighter.


I'm sorry, but KillerShark makes a very logical point. Arlovski left the UFC on a 3 fight win streak, then fought and beat both Rothwell and Nelson, both of whom are in the UFC right now...he goes into Strikeforce, gets knocked out by Fedor, then gets knocked out by Brett and then loses a unanimous decision to Antonia Silva and you want to blame his chin on it...? Or maybe...just maybe, the heavyweight division in the UFC blows. Maybe you're buying into all the hype, and the best fighters aren't just in the UFC.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

ptw said:


> I'm sorry, but KillerShark makes a very logical point. Arlovski left the UFC on a 3 fight win streak, then fought and beat both Rothwell and Nelson, both of whom are in the UFC right now...he goes into Strikeforce, gets knocked out by Fedor, then gets knocked out by Brett and then loses a unanimous decision to Antonia Silva and you want to blame his chin on it...? Or maybe...just maybe, the heavyweight division in the UFC blows. Maybe you're buying into all the hype, and the best fighters aren't just in the UFC.


pshh ive read all your posts on the subject and well i just gotta say we should probably have sex.


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## ahartleyvu (Aug 18, 2010)

[email protected] put into red over my comments in this thread.

All I was saying is that until Fedor fights and wins vs the top guys in the division, I don't think he can dimiss Lesnar. If Fedor could beat Carwin and Velasquez, then maybe he could say Lesnar ain't shit. Lesnar has a win over Mir and Carwin, both trump any opponent Fedor has beaten IMO. I'm not even saying Lesnar > Fedor or Fedor > Lesnar, I'm saying Fedor doesn't have enough big wins to say who is and who isn't a quality fighter.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

ahartleyvu said:


> [email protected] put into red over my comments in this thread.
> 
> All I was saying is that until Fedor fights and wins vs the top guys in the division, I don't think he can dimiss Lesnar. If Fedor could beat Carwin and Velasquez, then maybe he could say Lesnar ain't shit. Lesnar has a win over Mir and Carwin, both trump any opponent Fedor has beaten IMO. I'm not even saying Lesnar > Fedor or Fedor > Lesnar, I'm saying Fedor doesn't have enough big wins to say who is and who isn't a quality fighter.


I'm going to let this one go


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

It's amazing that people are so quick to jump on Brock for losing to Cain. A lot of people thought Cain had the tools to beat Brock. I thought Brock would win but i was wrong. But dismissing Brock takes away from Cain as well. Brock jumped straight in the deep end and did well for being new. But now he is having trouble because he is only fighting top 10 HW so all his fights are against legitimate tough opponents.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

ptw said:


> I'm sorry, but KillerShark makes a very logical point. Arlovski left the UFC on a 3 fight win streak, then fought and beat both Rothwell and Nelson, both of whom are in the UFC right now...he goes into Strikeforce, gets knocked out by Fedor, then gets knocked out by Brett and then loses a unanimous decision to Antonia Silva and you want to blame his chin on it...? Or maybe...just maybe, the heavyweight division in the UFC blows. Maybe you're buying into all the hype, and the best fighters aren't just in the UFC.


And dont forget his back to back loses to Tim Sylvia. 

He beat Ben Rothwell who I dont feel has advanced his game and is most likely on his way out of the UFC if he cant find a win in his next fight. He's 1&1 in the UFC and looked absolutely horrible in both fights, IMO he looked almost just as bad in his Yvel win as he did in his loss to Cain.

Do we really want to count Marcio Cruz and Jake O'Brien as wins that somehow propel a fighter someplace?

We all know the controversy about the Nelson fight. I was a critic of Roy and kind of still am but at least he shows improvements either way he's not a fighter I would rank in the top 5 at HW in the UFC. I think Arlovski's losses speak volumes about his chin and how he's not the same fighter he once was.

In Arlovski's last ten fights he's 5 & 5 and you think he's on his way where exactly? 

Also from then to now the UFC's heavyweight division has changed quite a bit and you are right in a way the UFC did have a weaker HW division then but now it is the only HW division with any merit. Sure other org's have a few good fighters but thats all they have. I can think of three fighters that are outside the UFC that should be on the top ten but after that nobody.


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## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

ahartleyvu said:


> [email protected] put into red over my comments in this thread.
> 
> All I was saying is that until Fedor fights and wins vs the top guys in the division, I don't think he can dimiss Lesnar. If Fedor could beat Carwin and Velasquez, then maybe he could say Lesnar ain't shit. Lesnar has a win over Mir and Carwin, both trump any opponent Fedor has beaten IMO. I'm not even saying Lesnar > Fedor or Fedor > Lesnar, I'm saying Fedor doesn't have enough big wins to say who is and who isn't a quality fighter.


?

im the first one to admit Fedor's Team recently has been 'selective' of his opponents..

BUT .. he has been fighting professionally since 2000 with a record of 32-2-1 ...

You can combine both Shane's and Cain's fight amount and it doesn't equal Fedor's total amount of fights..

You also have to remember Fedor was dominant back when the rules were closer to Vale Tudo.. (Pride) .. 

You really should reconsider your stance on Fedor.. he is an 'OG' of MMA .. and deserves more credit than you give him..


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

slapshot said:


> And dont forget his back to back loses to Tim Sylvia.


You mean the back to back losses to Sylvia for the UFC HW title? That's hardly a point to make. If you want to argue Sylvia isn't a good fighter, I would gladly take you up on that. Other than Ray Mercer's lucky 9 sec KO of big Tim, he has only lost to very notable names, Mir, Arlovski, Randy, and Big Nog...and that's before Arlovski's chin shit out on him, if you want to SERIOUSLY use that as an excuse as to why he's losing now, which is freaking retarded if you ask me. 



> He beat Ben Rothwell who I dont feel has advanced his game and is most likely on his way out of the UFC if he cant find a win in his next fight. He's 1&1 in the UFC and looked absolutely horrible in both fights, IMO he looked almost just as bad in his Yvel win as he did in his loss to Cain.


Arlovski fought Ben Rothwell when he was on a 13 fight win streak, 11 of which he finished...he had two wins over Krzysztof Soszynski whose in the UFC(only the best fighters are in the UFC, right?) and a win over Roy Nelson(who's also in the UFC, and fought JDS for number 1 contender...) So his performances haven't been amazing as of late, but when Arlovski fought him the guy was on a damn impressive run. 



> Do we really want to count Marcio Cruz and Jake O'Brien as wins that somehow propel a fighter someplace?


I'm not saying those wins propel Arlovski anywhere, but you can't dismiss those opponents. Marcio Cruz is a 6 time BJJ world champ, and an 03' ADCC world champ. He has a win over Frank Mir, lost a split decision to Monson who was on a 14 fight win streak at the time...Monson was on a run, who stopped him? Tim Sylvia for the UFC HW championship. As for Jake O'Brien, his losses come from Arlovski(Who left the UFC after this fight), then Cain Velazques(Current UFC HW Champ), Jon Jones(Jon Freakin' Jones) and Gerard Mousasi...not exactly the worst guys to lose to if you ask me. Mind you, he was on a 10 fight win streak with a win over Heath Herring before fighting Arlovski and getting shit on lol 




> We all know the controversy about the Nelson fight. I was a critic of Roy and kind of still am but at least he shows improvements either way he's not a fighter I would rank in the top 5 at HW in the UFC. I think Arlovski's losses speak volumes about his chin and how he's not the same fighter he once was.


You want to talk about sad, Roy Nelson just fought for number 1 contender status. A fat guy, who couldn't go 3 rounds(we all saw the fight) just fought for a chance to fight the winner of Valazques vs Lesnar for the title...yeah...

I think anyone who blames a loss on "someone's chin" is an idiot. You want to say Arlovski's chin isn't what it used to be and that's why he's losing? Anyone would've gotten knocked out by that HUGE shot Fedor landed on him, I don't care how good your ******* chin is that was on the button. As for his loss to Brett Rogers...it happened 22 seconds into the fight; Brett caught him and finished him. He didn't lose the fight because of his chin, that's retarded...watch Arlovski vs Silva if you want proof that his chin hasn't massively deteriorated, he took some shots from Silva in that fight, they just didn't land on the right spot like Fedor's and Rogers did. This isn't boxing man...You don't need a good chin to win fights.



> In Arlovski's last ten fights he's 5 & 5 and you think he's on his way where exactly?


When he was in the UFC Arlovski was 10-4, what's your point? I'm arguing the competition in the UFC HW division isn't as good as everyone is saying. I am using Sylvia and Arlovski as examples, but instead of looking at things objectively most everyone makes excuses or says these fighters are washed up or are fighting cans outside the UFC. The truth is the competition outside the UFC in the HW department is just as good if not better. You are all buying into the marketing gimmicks, Dana keeps saying "the best fighters are in the UFC" and everyone's buying into it, but when you take a step back and look things you realize the UFC HW division is nothing special. 



> Also from then to now the UFC's heavyweight division has changed quite a bit and you are right in a way the UFC did have a weaker HW division then but now it is the only HW division with any merit. Sure other org's have a few good fighters but thats all they have. I can think of three fighters that are outside the UFC that should be on the top ten but after that nobody.


I don't think it's changed much at all. The former champ was afraid to get hit, all it took was a decent striker with decent TDD to beat him...I would love to see Cro Cop vs Brock, I think it would be interesting, and the Cro Cop of Pride would seriously man handle Brock. The first fight of Carwin's that goes into round 2 he gets easily submitted LOL, a fat guy who almost had a heart attack after going for 3 rounds fought JDS for number 1 contender status...I will agree to an extent, that the HW division now is better than before, but that's only because it is far more varied in styles now, other than you've still got a division filled with one dimensional fighters. Only respectable guys in that division are JDS and Cain right now, they're the only ones I feel could be scaled down into another division and actually make an impact. Can you imagine taking Brock and scaling him down relative to make MW? He'd get destroyed, no striking, relies purely on wrestling and ground and pound, and would be fighting some actual well rounded fighters, he's lucky to be in a shallow division that's been hyped up as much as it has to seem relatively legit now, but I'm not falling for it.


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## ahartleyvu (Aug 18, 2010)

I previously gave him credit saying he is in the upper tier heavyweight division. My stance is that he won't be #1 (IMO) until he beats some of Velasquez, Lesnar, JDS, Carwin, etc. 

I'm also not saying he _couldn't_ beat any of these guys. This guy is considered to be the GOAT by some... man up and test yourself. That's all I'm saying. What is holding him back? Does he just not like Dana? I'd hate to believe a guy so dominant would be scared to get in the ring w/ the best guys. He seems like a fighter that would want the toughest competition... yet it hasn't happened.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

He is a product of Hype and i do think SF has a better HW dvision but Junior and Cain are legit and Carwin is a dangerous dude so id say the UFC has a weak division with a few good fighters.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

***** de Amigo said:


> He is a product of Hype *and i do think SF has a better HW dvision but Junior and Cain are legit and Carwin is a dangerous dude so id say the UFC has a weak division with a few good fighters*.



This sentence could easily be rephrased to say:

UFC has a better HW division but Fedor and Overeem are legit and Werdum is a dangerous dude so i think SF haas a weak division with a few good fighters. 

Neither SF nor the UFC have any real level of depth in the HW division. They have the 2/3/4 guys who are clearly top of the pile and then they have...the rest. 

I am inclined to believe that if you put the best the UFC can offer against the best SF can offer then the UFC would be proven to have the better fighters. The exception could be Overreem, i think he has the potential to be the number one in the world, but as of yet there are still question marks surrounding him until he faces competition on his level. 

:thumb02:


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Dream-On-101 said:


> This sentence could easily be rephrased to say:
> 
> UFC has a better HW division but Fedor and Overeem are legit and Werdum is a dangerous dude so i think SF haas a weak division with a few good fighters.
> 
> ...


In response to the parts in red , you have believed the HYPE machine to much , the UFC has better fighters all round but this division SF has the better fighters. 

Bigfoot , Barenett and Rogers are better than the rest in the UFC aswell.

Fedor
Overeem
Werdum
Barnett 
Bigfoot
Rogers

Cain
Lesnar
Junior
Carwin 
Mir 
Nelson


For starters Mir and Nelson imo would lose to all the guys at strikeforce i have mentioned above maybe Rogers they could beat. Lesnar has been shown to have terrible defence to strikes again would get destroyed by alot of those guys IMO. Like i said Carwin is dangerous in the 1st round if you get past that well i think all those guys are capable of beating him , Junior and Cain are the only legit guys IMO.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

ahartleyvu said:


> [email protected] put into red over my comments in this thread.
> 
> All I was saying is that until Fedor fights and wins vs the top guys in the division, I don't think he can dimiss Lesnar. If Fedor could beat Carwin and Velasquez, then maybe he could say Lesnar ain't shit. Lesnar has a win over Mir and Carwin, both trump any opponent Fedor has beaten IMO. I'm not even saying Lesnar > Fedor or Fedor > Lesnar, I'm saying Fedor doesn't have enough big wins to say who is and who isn't a quality fighter.


Fedor has faced better guys than Lesnar and who Lesnar has fought and Cain is great but still yet to defend his belt.


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## ahartleyvu (Aug 18, 2010)

bump.................


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

ahartleyvu said:


> bump.................


Why?


.......


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## ahartleyvu (Aug 18, 2010)

Pretty obvious Fedor isn't the GOAT HW, looks like maybe I wasn't wrong with my statements


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

*they're


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

No necro threading please.


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