# Rashad Evans: "I won't sit there and go toe-to-toe. It's stupid."



## jjperk73 (Jun 18, 2010)

I'm not trying to fighter bash, but this is exactly why I don't like to watch Evans fight. He makes some good points about wrestling being part of the sport and all, but so is the spirit to finish fights. To me, that's why I watch MMA. I want to see heart and guys really try to finish fights. To me, guys like Evans and GSP are content to implement their control and not take any chances to finish guys. That does show a lot of skill, but doesn't show a lot of heart imo and makes the fights uninteresting to watch.

Am I off base here?

Source: Rashad Evans addresses "Rampage" Jackson and fans who call him boring


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

There's a big difference between Rashad, who just lays on top and sleeps for 15 mins, and GSP who badly smashes the faces / nearly tears limbs off every guy he takes down. People really need to take a look at Fitch's post fight face again, the crying face Hughes made when GSP twisted his arm off, Hardy's teeth grinding when GSP had his arm, or BJ and Serra's beaten, smashed faces when the ref/corner saved them.

Other than that yeah I agree ... it's supposed to be a fight and that means doing damage and finishing the other guy, that's what separates it from completely sport endeavors like pure wrestling or pointfighting.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Great, so he does what he does and he makes good points... but it's still boring.


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## DahStoryTella (Jul 11, 2009)

Good.

I give props to these fighters like Fitch, Shields, Evans, GSP, and so on for fighting to their strengths and playing it safe.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

I made money on Rashad, will try to do it again. Still not a 'fan.'


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

I like the fact that there are many ways to win a MMA fight. If you don't like it, go back to Don king and boxing. Myself, I quit watching bozing 20 years ago.


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## anderton46 (Apr 23, 2010)

The thing about MMA is its ever evolving. If a LNP tactic does become one of the most common tactics employed then new techniques will be developed to counter this, whether it be advanced BJJ or w/e.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Thread starter, 

first, thanks for the link to an interesting read. Second, yes you are entirely off base.

Rashad said it best in the article you linked. I swear every time the man speaks I like him more.



> "What is an exciting fight mean? We just stand toe-to-toe and act like we don't have any training at all? I'm not going to do that. I would never do that. That's just stupid. I know that it doesn't take much to get caught with a big shot. I'm trying to win. I'm not gonna sit there and go toe-to-toe. If that's the only chance a guy has of beating me, I'm not going to give him that chance. My goal is to try to eliminate as much as I can that he can to do me, while maximizing whatever I can do to him.
> 
> "I want to say, if you guys are fans be fans of the sport. Don't be fans of just certain aspects of the sport. It's not boxing. It's MMA. That means you can use wrestling, jiu-jitsu, muay-thai, karate, boxing, whatever you feel that's your discipline. That's the sport that you're claiming that you're fans of. Be a fan of the sport.


"

That second paragraph is sig worthy.
I don't understand the constant complaints of boredom. Is your attention span so short that two athletes like Rashad and Rampage cant hold your focus for 15 minutes? 
If that is the case, there is k-1, tough-man, backyard brawls, wwe, the list goes on. why claim to be a fan of mma and then constantly complain that it's boring. I can guarantee that Rampage was not bored for one second in that fight.

Were the '72 Dolphins boring because they gave it to csonka up the middle?
Were the '85 Bears boring because they wouldn't let their opponents score?
If you thought so, then football is not the sport for you. Watch something else.

the same applies here. find something that excites you and watch that.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

No Rashad.. an exciting fight is when you choose not to stall as a means to gain points in a system biased to wrestling on a regular basis.

A boring fight is when you are grinding him down looking for a way to win. Hell, people dislike Fitch for being boring and he does 100X what you do in a fight REGULARLY.

Starting to hate this punk more and more. The worst part was where he started going on about how he was surprised rampage didnt "quit". If you think holding onto rampage for dear life against a cage and taking him down once in a while is going to make rampage quit you've got another thing ******* coming.

What saddens me is to see uneducated, foolish mma fanboys defend rashad and compare him to the likes of gsp, c'mon wake up.


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## Indestructibl3 (Apr 2, 2009)

Well the goal is to win, right? So I don't see a reason for taking unnecessary risks just to excite a specific group of fans who are looking for a non-technical slugfest.

Although I agree fighters should be looking for the finish, I'm also a firm believer in sticking to a conservative gameplan in order to win, as opposed to throwing it out the window to silence a couple of boos.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

oldfan said:


> Thread starter,
> 
> first, thanks for the link to an interesting read. Second, yes you are entirely off base.
> 
> ...


There is nothing more to say. Thanks


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Can i ask who ever left me anonymous neg rep saying;

You only like to see a slugfest because that's what English fighters do.

To own up and stop being a ******* coward. This anon neg rep is so annoying, the website should show everyone who leaves you rep.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Majortom505 said:


> There is nothing more to say. Thanks


If only that were true.... I might get some work done.



Mckeever said:


> Can i ask who ever left me anonymous neg rep saying;
> 
> You only like to see a slugfest because that's what English fighters do.
> 
> To own up and stop being a ******* coward. This anon neg rep is so annoying, the website should show everyone who leaves you rep.


There's something we agree on!
I think it's intentional to goad us in to upgrading to a paid membership then you can see who's doing it.

It's an evil plan that is working on me


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

This point is actually quite a difficult issue. On the one hand you have Rashad, who knows he doesnt have great boxing nor a particularly solid chin, refusing to stand and bang with someone who he knows has a good chance of beating him. He has great wrestling - so he uses it. It is obviously effective, he is winning fights. 

People can argue all day about it being boring (i agree, there is a difference between what Rashad did with Rampage and what say, GSP does) because there is little to no damage, only control. But its within the rules and its winning fights.

And to be honest, i cant actually say that i expect Rashad to stand and fight well outside his comfort zone, risking his career and health, just to silence the boo-boys.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> Can i ask who ever left me anonymous neg rep saying;
> 
> You only like to see a slugfest because that's what English fighters do.
> 
> To own up and stop being a ******* coward. This anon neg rep is so annoying, the website should show everyone who leaves you rep.


Pay the 10 dollars ya wedge ass. You like the site and its not much money. I can't believe guys on here with 2,000 posts and aren't upgraded members. Sites such as these need money to stay going so open up your wallet and see who's repping you:thumb02:


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Dream-On-101 said:


> This point is actually quite a difficult issue. On the one hand you have Rashad, who knows he doesnt have great boxing nor a particularly solid chin, refusing to stand and bang with someone who he knows has a good chance of beating him. He has great wrestling - so he uses it. It is obviously effective,* he is winning fights.
> *


Now that's where I come in bashing the scoring system. :thumb02:

In my view the fighter who does more damage wins the fight. Octagon control should be worth nothing, I repeat NOTHING. The actual issue I have with wrestlers controlling the fight I don't have with the wrestlers but with the judging system and the referees. Controlling the fight is just that: controlling the fight. Winning the fight is due to SCORING, just like any other sport. Half an hour ago Germany lost to Serbia. We (which is Germany) controlled the major part of the match, but we didn't score. Serbia did and so they won. I know it's not a combat sport, you get the point though. Controlling the fight should not be the same as scoring a point. Lay and pray is a form of exploiting the flawed system. It's basically like bug-using in a video game.


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## Finnsidious (Mar 14, 2009)

You're not off base on the opinion part, you can like whatever style you want. Some like boxing, some like muy thai, some like wrestling, I don't care about that.

You're off base on the heart aspect. It has nothing to do with heart, it's about using the appropriate skills at the appropriate time against the right guy.

Let me put it as simply as I can. The guys who don't fight like GSP and Fitch don't....because they can't. Period. They aren't good enough. They aren't good enough wrestlers, they aren't good enough at judo, they aren't good enough at jitz. They aren't strong enough. They aren't fast enough. 

If they could fight like GSP, they would, because he is the WW champ and one of the best in the world. They can talk all they like about how they like to bang, but don't pretend it is some kind of aesthetic decision to fight stand up and lose, they don't have a choice.

The equivalent would be yanking a pitcher out of a game that he is throwing a no hitter in, because it's 'boring' and the only 'real' way to win is to hit a bunch of home runs. That would be idiotic, and it's just as idiotic to suggest someone who is a dominant ground fighter should fight stand up.


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

Rashad fights smart fights, and no one can blame him for that. I am a Rashad fan and have been since TUF2. However, I do wish he would work for the finish more often. Just because you're fighting smart doesn't mean you can't be looking for the finish. There aren't a lot of ways to finish a guy holding him to the fence and punching his knee. I think part of the frustration is that there isn't a sense of urgency from Rashad to put his opponents away.

With GSP, you get the sense that he wants to put them away. He goes for subs, he GnP's - he does all of that but does it wisely, without giving up position. As long as the fighter is actively seeking to finish the fight, I'm down. I just dislike when the feeling I get is that the fighter would rather ride the fight out to a decision to get the W, much like KOS vs Daley.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Now that's where I come in bashing the scoring system. :thumb02:
> 
> In my view the fighter who does more damage wins the fight. Octagon control should be worth nothing, I repeat NOTHING. The actual issue I have with wrestlers controlling the fight I don't have with the wrestlers but with the judging system and the referees. Controlling the fight is just that: controlling the fight. Winning the fight is due to SCORING, just like any other sport. Half an hour ago Germany lost to Serbia. We (which is Germany) controlled the major part of the match, but we didn't score. Serbia did and so they won. I know it's not a combat sport, you get the point though. Controlling the fight should not be the same as scoring a point. Lay and pray is a form of exploiting the flawed system. It's basically like bug-using in a video game.


I can see where your coming from, people MUST distinguish the utilisation of wrestling in terms of a tool to finish a fight (GSP, Brock) and a tool to in effect prevent the fight from taking place (Rashad). 

I dont disagree with your points. But the fact is, unless a fundamental overhaul takes place in the judging of MMA bouts, this will continue and i cant honestly expect people like Rashad to change, because if that was my best way of winning a fight i would do it to.

On a side note, watched the Germany game and as a proud Englishman, i cant say i was altogher distraught with the result :thumb02: We'll probably get you in the next round now!


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

It's up to their opponent to defend! Rashad is ON base in my opinion.



GSP hurts people badly when he is on top, Rashad has been more boring, but he's going for the same thing and just isn't as good with control as GSP.


We might see a prime example of someone overcoming this gameplan with GSP vs Kos, maybe Kos can actually stuff the takedowns this time around? I doubt it, but that's what he will need to do to win.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

anderton46 said:


> The thing about MMA is its ever evolving. If a LNP tactic does become one of the most common tactics employed then new techniques will be developed to counter this, whether it be advanced BJJ or w/e.



I agree with this completely. Bitching about a fighter using LnP doesn't stop him from doing it. Developing the techniques and skills to counter the LnP is the only way to beat it. 

On the count of guys like GSP, Evans, Shields and such, who are actually going for position, making the effort to better their control, I don't consider that LnP, but when a guy lays on top of his opponent and attempts half-ass GnP and is okay with staying in full guard and not moving to gain position, that is LnP.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Dream-On-101 said:


> I can see where your coming from, people MUST distinguish the utilisation of wrestling in terms of a tool to finish a fight (GSP, Brock) and a tool to in effect prevent the fight from taking place (Rashad).
> 
> I dont disagree with your points. But the fact is, *unless a fundamental overhaul takes place in the judging of MMA bouts, *this will continue and i cant honestly expect people like Rashad to change, because if that was my best way of winning a fight i would do it to.
> 
> On a side note, watched the Germany game and as a proud Englishman, i cant say i was altogher distraught with the result :thumb02: We'll probably get you in the next round now!


I think this has to happen at some point. You can't have a fighter LnPing for 15 minutes for the win. Referees should stand fights up faster, but this would take knowledge of the ground game because I don't want any standups like Nelson/Arlovski either. More knowledgeable referees will emerge the longer MMA is around so I think this whole thing will change soon.

Yeah, you'll get us most likely in the next round... if you make it so far that is. I hope you do though, because victories against England are so much sweeter. :thumb02:


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## looney liam (Jun 22, 2007)

i agree with rashad, you shouldn't be slated if you use a particular discipline to your advantage. its not the fighters fault for utilizing wrestling to win a majority decision, they're just taking advantage of a very flawed scoring system. i bet if grappling was scored in the way RINGS did it back in the day the fights would be completely different. (for those that don't know RINGS actually awarded points to fighters the bottom who were attempting subs/sweeps so if you lay n prayed a fighter with an active guard you'd actually lose the decision.)


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

I have previously stated my outright hate for everyone who says that Greg Jackson and Evans are boring and I guess I have to do it again in this thread.

Evans is not a stand up fighter. He is and always has been a wrestler. He tried to appease fans earlier and only strike with opponents and was still hated. He got KO'ed and is now fighting for himself and with inteligence which is so much more impressive than fighters who literally just brawl. For anyone who actually likes MMA they would realize that this is something inside this sport and it is something that is impressive because all the rules are against you. If the fight gets just a little slow on the ground because you are tired... the fight is stood up. All the rounds already have you standing up at the begining. The fans are constantly drunk and foolishly booing you. If you get decision wins it takes you even longer to get to a title shot. And now we want rule changes to even further put ground fighters at a disadvantage? Seriously? How about we just take out all grappling and call it kickboxing with smaller gloves? That sound good for ya? 

Blame the fighters that have nothing to bring to the table when it turns into a ground fight.

Agree with Rashad completely... enjoy the whole sport, not just the brawls.


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

What bothers me is that the fight was supposed to be one of the biggest grudge matches in the history of ufc and Rashad talked on and on how he would beat Rampage up. Result; Another L&P performance by Rashad with next to no damage dealt. Yes according to rules it was a clear win for Rashad, butthey really need to reward fighters for damage dealt more than "octagon control" and takedowns. Rashad is faster than Rampage, has better wrestling and a bjj blackbelt, how many times he actually tried to finish the fight? Exactly.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Diokhan said:


> What bothers me is that the fight was supposed to be one of the biggest grudge matches in the history of ufc and Rashad talked on and on how he would beat Rampage up. Result; Another L&P performance by Rashad with next to no damage dealt. Yes according to rules it was a clear win for Rashad, butthey really need to reward fighters for damage dealt more than "octagon control" and takedowns. Rashad is faster than Rampage, has better wrestling and a bjj blackbelt, how many times he actually tried to finish the fight? Exactly.


The first punch?

The last two minutes?

Whenever he tried to advance position and a bigger and stronger Rampage stood back up?

And since you are this all powerful computer that can tell damage to fighters like a mortal kombat video game or something... YOU can tell us who does more damage in all the fights, because I sure can't do that.


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## WestCoastPoutin (Feb 27, 2007)

oldfan said:


> Thread starter,
> 
> first, thanks for the link to an interesting read. Second, yes you are entirely off base.
> 
> ...



great post. repped


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## Sousa (Jun 16, 2007)

Rashad doesn't go toe to toe? Pft what do you call the Machida,Forrest, Liddell fights?I swear that ko he suffered really did something to his brain.His last two performances were far far far less than impressive. I don't mind the ground game at all, I lvoe it but if you just lay on top of a fighter and do absolutely nothing NOTHING then he shoudln't deserve respect. This is FIGHTING not wrestling. It also sucks that judges are obsessed with giving points out to wrestlers for absolutely nothing most of the time.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Sousa said:


> Rashad doesn't go toe to toe? Pft what do you call the Machida,Forrest, Liddell fights?I swear that ko he suffered really did something to his brain.His last two performances were far far far less than impressive. I don't mind the ground game at all, I lvoe it but if you just lay on top of a fighter and do absolutely nothing NOTHING then he shoudln't deserve respect. This is FIGHTING not wrestling. It also sucks that judges are obsessed with giving points out to wrestlers for absolutely nothing most of the time.


While I agree with you opinion on the judges I disagree that that was a fight that they gave points for doing nothing. 

As has previously been stated he did a lot more than Rampage in that fight and deserved the win.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

Rashad's right. Way I see it is this is a legit sport first, entertainment second. If this were to become an olympic sport would you tell your countries representatives to throw a completely valid gameplan out the window that would win you the fight just to entertain the crowd at the Olympics and the people watching at home? Get real, go for the win, go for the honor. People need to become more educated to appreciate the fight for what it truly is; when I first saw a wrestling match in HS I thought it was the gayest thing in the world...then I did some wrestling and realized it was an extremely technical battle between two athletes.

In conclusion, this isn't the WWE.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> While I agree with you opinion on the judges I disagree that that was a fight that they gave points for doing nothing.
> 
> As has previously been stated he did a lot more than Rampage in that fight and deserved the win.


He wasnt fighting ramapge he was holding on to him for 3 rounds, theres a difference. He landed like 5 GNP shots in the last round and a shot in round 1. That was the only signifcant damage he done. Didnt advance his position, didnt attempt subs, didnt work GNP, instead he just held onto rampage. 

UFC Ultimate "fighting" championship. That is not mine or any one elses idea of fighting. Prime hughes, ortiz, couture, gsp are all wrestlers that use their wrestling to fight, they use it for mma. Whether it be some viscious GNP, submissions or big slams, they are wrestlers that deserve respect and have helped the sport grow. Rashads style of wrestling which is basically just lack luster wrestling is damaging the sport. Rules need to be changed.


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## Kado (Apr 18, 2010)

I look at it from the stand point of some fighters fight to fight, some fight for the fans, some fight for the money, and some fight for the win. In that fight Rashad was fighting for the win. If you do not like it thats fine, call it boreing, but just do not dis credit him. I would deffinatly rather watch a fight with constant action, over a fight like Rashad v Rampage, but I will still watch that fight, because I love MMA and all that comes with it.


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## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

there is no pleasing the atypical MMA fan when it comes to the victories of Rashad Evans

even after pounding Jason Lamberts skull in the ground, almost knocking off the head of Sean Salmon, turing Chuck's jaw into dust and making Forrest look like a drowning muppet....people are still whining about him not being "exciting"

to be honest...Ive only seen this "boring wrestling gameplan" of Rashad in his two fights after Machida. Thiago Silva landed 2 good shots the entire go-around they had...and Rampage knocked him down adn threw 5 ghost punches.

If Rashad KO's or subs his next opponent, what will the verdict be?


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> *There's a big difference between Rashad, who just lays on top and sleeps for 15 mins, and GSP who badly smashes the faces / nearly tears limbs off every guy he takes down. People really need to take a look at Fitch's post fight face again, the crying face Hughes made when GSP twisted his arm off, Hardy's teeth grinding when GSP had his arm, or BJ and Serra's beaten, smashed faces when the ref/corner saved them.*
> 
> Other than that yeah I agree ... it's supposed to be a fight and that means doing damage and finishing the other guy, that's what separates it from completely sport endeavors like pure wrestling or pointfighting.


Exactly, you said it perfectly. And this is what we don't see with Rashad when he fights good fighters. It's boring, it's safe, it's not progressive, it's not damage inflicting... it's just control.

I agree when he says wrestling is a part of the game but unless you can use it to gain positional advantage and then progress, you are just controlling and not making it a fight. Wrestling isn't a martial art, I see it more as an accessory. You wont see GSP taking guys down and doing sh*t all when it hits the ground. At times it just seems like Rashad is holding on for dear life, rather than fighting. In his last two fights, where was the GnP? Where were the transitions? The submission attempts? All there is is some pitter patter on Rampage's knee, 10 seconds of GnP and against T.Silva... nothing. 

If everyone fought like Rashad this sport would be miserable.


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## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

Hows shogun supposed to stop rashads shot, who can take down Page, when he cant even stop Machidas shot? .... nooooo really?


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

Sekou said:


> there is no pleasing the atypical MMA fan when it comes to the victories of Rashad Evans
> 
> even after pounding Jason Lamberts skull in the ground, almost knocking off the head of Sean Salmon, turing Chuck's jaw into dust and making Forrest look like a drowning muppet....people are still whining about him not being "exciting"
> 
> ...


It will be that he had to fight safe against dangerous fighters but can and did win by fighting, rather than controlling. I'll shut up if he does that, because his next fight is against Shogun. Randy has done it before, but then he can still go in there with top guys and bury them. When Rashad does the same against a top guy, I'll cut him some slack.

Rashad can pound out cans all day long, I don't care. It's against good fighters recently that he turns up to make it as boring and unconvincing as possible, because he doesn't have the tools to do anything else. He's lucky Forrest Griffin doesn't have a solid chin, because he was getting dominated in that fight too. His hands are heavy and he's got ok standup, but he will barely use it anymore because he's got a weak chin. So he uses wrestling to pin it against the cage or take it down, but then does nothing.


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

Syxx Paq said:


> Hows shogun supposed to stop rashads shot, who can take down Page, when he cant even stop Machidas shot? .... nooooo really?


Shogun could probably sweep him.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

> Rashad can pound out cans all day long, I don't care. It's against good fighters recently that he turns up to make it as boring and unconvincing as possible, because he doesn't have the tools to do anything else.


 That's just not fair. And I used to hate Rashad and anticipate his first defeat.

Was he afraid to engage with Chuck?
Did he lay on forrest much?

He won the belt with some of the most vicious GnP I have ever seen. It was lightning fast and he made forrest's unconscious body tap....and tap..

He suffered his first defeat in devastating, humiliating (and exciting) fashion.

He's recovering from that and he's doing it smart. Now he has two wins against top opponents and another shot at the belt. Pretty smart.

Have you ever seen anyone lay on top of Shogun? I haven't and Rashad knows it too. win or lose I think you'll like this fight just fine.:thumb02:


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> He wasnt fighting ramapge he was holding on to him for 3 rounds, theres a difference. He landed like 5 GNP shots in the last round and a shot in round 1. That was the only signifcant damage he done. Didnt advance his position, didnt attempt subs, didnt work GNP, instead he just held onto rampage.
> 
> UFC Ultimate "fighting" championship. That is not mine or any one elses idea of fighting. Prime hughes, ortiz, couture, gsp are all wrestlers that use their wrestling to fight, they use it for mma. Whether it be some viscious GNP, submissions or big slams, they are wrestlers that deserve respect and have helped the sport grow. Rashads style of wrestling which is basically just lack luster wrestling is damaging the sport. Rules need to be changed.





hkado said:


> I look at it from the stand point of some fighters fight to fight, some fight for the fans, some fight for the money, and some fight for the win. In that fight Rashad was fighting for the win. If you do not like it thats fine, call it boreing, but just do not dis credit him. I would deffinatly rather watch a fight with constant action, over a fight like Rashad v Rampage, but I will still watch that fight, because I love MMA and all that comes with it.


McKeever... you need to watch the fight again. It has already been established that Rashad used his speed to numerously hit Rampage while standing without Rampage hitting him. He took him down three times and had Rampage afraid the entire fight to engage because he was afraid Rashad would go for the TD. He used GnP the entire time he clinched or had Rampage on the ground and the only reason he could not get into a position to land really good GnP is because Rampage was strong enough to stand back up whenever Rashad went to pass. He was pounding Rampages face with his fist for the last 2 minutes... and a hell of a lot more than 5 GnP shots.

You expect him to go for submissions against a guy who has been submitted how many times against people who are much better at submitting than Rashad? And how many submissions has Rashad won by against anyone worht mentioning?

You expect Rashad to go out of his gameplan and do things that he is not great at but where is this criticism of Rampage? Why not say Rampage should have gone for submissions or slams or actually put any sort of glimpse at an offensive striking?




Agree fully with hkado.


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## MikeHawk (Sep 11, 2009)

He doesn't wanna go toe to toe because he almost always gets rocked and finished.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

oldfan said:


> Thread starter,
> 
> first, thanks for the link to an interesting read. Second, yes you are entirely off base.
> 
> ...


Whats up buddy, I agree Rashad has the right to fight whichever way he wants. at the end of the day its all about the (w)?? On the other hand Fans also have the right to complain when they feel like they're being shortchanged. LNP is NOT an art form so lets not even pretend like it is. It is simply MMA's version of boxers hugging each other. it is STALLING and fans deserve better.

Since you referenced football, i'm sure you've herad the phrase "*Offense sells tickets* and defense wins games" 

well imo LNP is the biggest single threat to MMA.


I sure hope the commission steps in and puts and end to this shameful aspect of this beautiful sport. :thumbsup:


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Rashad as a fighter is free to do whatever he feels is needed to win a fight. We as fans are free to cheer, ignore, or boo him depending on what our idea of a "proper" fight is. And Dana White & Joe Silva will look at the big picture and decide what they want to do with Rashad.


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## themmadude (May 28, 2010)

I love how some of yall just say "lay and pray" "lay and sleep" like you have done it a thousand times to proffesional fighters. STFU already......

Earth to MARS: STFU! 

Earth to Galaxy 2,242,084: STFU!!!!!


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## FatFreeMilk (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't blame a wrestler not standing with a MT fighter, its a wise decision to take the guy down. However once down, do something. Holding someone down with pathetic GnP which only serves the purpose of not being stood up is not fighting - it's controlling as has been pointed out a million times in the thread. Although my angst is mainly down with the judging system, can't blame the fighters as they are simply utilising their game to fit the rules which I believe are flawed.


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## Maazisrock (Sep 22, 2008)

Rofl rashad haters are morons


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

themmadude said:


> I love how some of yall just say "lay and pray" "lay and sleep" like you have done it a thousand times to proffesional fighters. STFU already......
> 
> Earth to MARS: STFU!
> 
> Earth to Galaxy 2,242,084: STFU!!!!!


 I agree 100% and being held down when you're trying your best to get up is no picnic. And it's not boring. Why isn't anyone criticizing Rampage for just laying there and taking it? 



vilify said:


> Whats up buddy, I agree Rashad has the right to fight whichever way he wants. at the end of the day its all about the (w)?? On the other hand Fans also have the right to complain when they feel like they're being shortchanged. LNP is NOT an art form so lets not even pretend like it is. It is simply MMA's version of boxers hugging each other. it is STALLING and fans deserve better.
> 
> Since you referenced football, i'm sure you've herad the phrase "*Offense sells tickets* and defense wins games"
> 
> ...


Hey P, 

According to this Rashad had all the offense too.http://fightmetric.com/fights/Evans-Jackson.html
Out struck him every where even if you take away the Knee punches (WTF knee punches?? hahahahah)


----------



## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

oldfan said:


> That's just not fair. And I used to hate Rashad and anticipate his first defeat.
> 
> Was he afraid to engage with Chuck?
> Did he lay on forrest much?
> ...


I fully recognise that it was after the Machida fight that Rashad's 'hold on for dear life' style came to fruition, but that doesn't mean I like it. I hate it, it's boring and as from combat as you can get while keeping within the rules.

Pretty smart and pretty boring. It's controlling, not fighting. 

If Rashad fought the same way as he has done since the Machida fight for the rest of his career, I bet all those defending him would be bored with him long before he retires.


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## themmadude (May 28, 2010)

oldfan said:


> I agree 100% and being held down when you're trying your best to get up is no picnic. And it's not boring. Why isn't anyone criticizing Rampage for just laying there and taking it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It perplexes me too. What is going on in someones mind when they see Rampage being held down by Evans and they start to boo? LOL!!!! Amateurs. They have never been held down before I take it. Or they think they are the next K-1 champion they just need to buy a car first and they are on their way to the top!


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Hiro said:


> I fully recognise that it was after the Machida fight that Rashad's 'hold on for dear life' style came to fruition, but that doesn't mean I like it. I hate it, it's boring and as from combat as you can get while keeping within the rules.
> 
> Pretty smart and pretty boring. It's controlling, not fighting.
> 
> If Rashad fought the same way as he has done since the Machida fight for the rest of his career, I bet all those defending him would be bored with him long before he retires.


I can Kinda see your point of the Silva fight.

Not so much on the Rampage fight.

But I will agree to disagree because we both like different things in MMA.


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## Sojuuk (Apr 22, 2008)

A good ground and pound fighter is fun to watch. A point fighter is pretty boring as you can almost predict the whole fight based on their style .

As far as rashad I have no opinion but if DW thinks hes boring and the fans think hes boring I put money on him getting cut.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> Can i ask who ever left me anonymous neg rep saying;
> 
> You only like to see a slugfest because that's what English fighters do.
> 
> To own up and stop being a ******* coward. This anon neg rep is so annoying, the website should show everyone who leaves you rep.


Seriously, thats some bitch shit Im a paid and I leave my name with paid memebers....that said your seriously cheap or do not have the means to spend ten bucks dude....McKeever....your better than that pal....there is alot more you can see and do when you go gold....



RustyRenegade said:


> Pay the 10 dollars ya jew. You like the site and its not much money. I can't believe guys on here with 2,000 posts and aren't upgraded members. Sites such as these need money to stay going so open up your wallet and see who's repping you:thumb02:


Hillarious....repped:thumb02:



themmadude said:


> I love how some of yall just say "lay and pray" "lay and sleep" like you have done it a thousand times to proffesional fighters. STFU already......
> 
> Earth to MARS: STFU!
> 
> Earth to Galaxy 2,242,084: STFU!!!!!


Leave....ya'll....you STFU its a legitimate discussion and valid considering GSP and Rashad have made this a style a la Greg Jackson....you talk like your some old school fighter and your not, there are people on this thread with tons more knowledge spittin it....and all you got is STFU......

again...leave...:thumbsdown: BTW....I went ahead and adjusted your rep....





Hiro said:


> I fully recognise that it was after the Machida fight that Rashad's 'hold on for dear life' style came to fruition, but that doesn't mean I like it. I hate it, it's boring and as from combat as you can get while keeping within the rules.
> 
> Pretty smart and pretty boring. It's controlling, not fighting.
> 
> If Rashad fought the same way as he has done since the Machida fight for the rest of his career, I bet all those defending him would be bored with him long before he retires.


I agree here, I think Hiro is making a valid point and while fine to disagree...look..



There is a clear connection between the approach to a fight that Rashad has decided to take after his loss the Machida, and as mentioned on this thread that same type of change occurred in GSP (admittedly) after Serra. The fact of the matter is each are dynamic strikers in their own right and now have reverted to what got them into the sport, when in all reality they have progressed such as fighters that their stand up could be better than their wrestling.

In Georges case he was a dynamic striker first that went to wrestling where Rashad always had a wrestling pedigree. The point is that if you fight and try to advance your position from the bottom or top either way if you cannot advance but simply maintain that position there will always be this discussion.

The answer is simple...stand fighter up more often and make the basis for that not effective enough striking from the person in the dominant position....i.e Rashad or GSP....


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> Seriously, thats some bitch shit Im a paid and I leave my name with paid memebers....that said your seriously cheap or do not have the means to spend ten bucks dude....McKeever....your better than that pal....there is alot more you can see and do when you go gold....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aw... you can really just modify someones rep? Remind me not to piss you off if we ever get into a disagreement.

And since we are on the topic of buying this and you all have finally convinced me... Whenever I click the upgrade to lifetime button it says the website refused to show this page... soo... what do I do?


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

The505Butcher said:


> Aw... you can really just modify someones rep? Remind me not to piss you off if we ever get into a disagreement.
> 
> And since we are on the topic of buying this and you all have finally convinced me... Whenever I click the upgrade to lifetime button it says the website refused to show this page... soo... what do I do?


Rep is earned around here much like you have earned yours, he comes with that crap and he gets a welcome.....now earn our respect...

As far as your new account or upgrade, one thing I would try doing first is simply logging off and then refreshing the screen, once you do this then click on the lifetime membership and there should be a terms and agreement page and then a bio page. Hopefully this works for you if not let me know you can Pm me if you need anything...:thumb02:


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

The505Butcher said:


> I can Kinda see your point of the Silva fight.
> 
> Not so much on the Rampage fight.
> 
> But I will agree to disagree because we both like different things in MMA.


The worst thing is, I like Rashad. I say all this out of frudtration. When he puts his wrestling to good use against a top fighter, I'll be singing his praises. He already does and gets the win, but how about win convincingly, entertainingly or whatever the term is.

I'm not calling for him to stand in front of power punches and trade strikes, I just wanna see some GnP and passes, take their back, use some BJJ, just do something.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Hiro said:


> The worst thing is, I like Rashad. I say all this out of frudtration. When he puts his wrestling to good use against a top fighter, I'll be singing his praises. He already does and gets the win, but how about win convincingly, entertainingly or whatever the term is.
> 
> I'm not calling for him to stand in front of power punches and trade strikes, I just wanna see some GnP and passes, take their back, use some BJJ, just do something.


Yeah I want that too. I just do not think the Rampage fight was boring or that Rashad did not do everything he could.

We will see in his next fight


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## sNatch204 (Oct 13, 2006)

The only not so exciting fights Rashad has had in the last like 4 years, were his last 2 fights. He has some of the greatest knockouts in UFC history. His head kick vs Sean Salmon was one of the best KO's i have seen, and his KO vs Chuck was amazing. He had some of the fastest hands i have ever seen at 205, in that fight. After getting dropped like 4 times vs Machida, he decided, maybe standing for every fight, isnt the greatest of strategies. Hes still an exciting fighter. If he continues to fight like this for his next like 2-3 fights, then he will become a boring fighter. But hes going to eventually fight a guy who he is a better striker than, and hes probably going to get another highlight reel KO.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

The505Butcher said:


> Yeah I want that too. I just do not think the Rampage fight was boring or that Rashad did not do everything he could.
> 
> We will see in his next fight


I don't doubt Rashad does everything he can.

Against Shogun he can't do much else. Shogun is a better striker and grappler :confused05:


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Hiro said:


> I don't doubt Rashad does everything he can.
> 
> Against Shogun he can't do much else. Shogun is a better striker and grappler :confused05:


We shall see! We shall see!


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## evilstevie (Apr 19, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> There's a big difference between Rashad, who just lays on top and sleeps for 15 mins, and GSP who badly smashes the faces / nearly tears limbs off every guy he takes down. .


Was that sarcasm? Have you even seen a recent GSP fight? GSP has become the king of lay and pray. He doesn't even attempt to stand with anyone anymore. Rashad has about 5x the standup skills as GSP, so if anyone is going to rag on Rashad for not standing, you'd better not be a GSP fan. I see Rashad as a carbon copy of GSP - his wrestling just isn't as good, but his standup is better.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

RustyRenegade said:


> Pay the 10 dollars ya jew. You like the site and its not much money. I can't believe guys on here with 2,000 posts and aren't upgraded members. Sites such as these need money to stay going so open up your wallet and see who's repping you:thumb02:


:shame02: My rich uncle in Israel is sending me the money.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...Having a gameplan and executing it is what Rashad does. He may not be the most exciting fighter but MMA is not just stand up. It may be the most exciting part of the game but that word "mixed" is a part of it. Evans went after Rampage and fought him the correct way. Exchange/Takedown. The incorrect way to fight QJ is the way Liddell did. Thus the results. Evans isn't always boring. He went toe to toe with Liddell and knocked him out ice cold. He landed that vicious headkick on Sean Salmon putting him completely to sleep as well. Those 2 made it to the Ultimate Knockouts DVD. Evans can mix it up very well, a tribute to why he's next in line for another title shot...


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## JonCR96Z (Sep 16, 2009)

Having a win bonus that doubles your pay probably motivates them alot more to WIN the fight than to finish. Maybe if they got rid of win bonuses and gave like $500,000 for KO, Sub and fight of the night, then people would be more willing to let it all hang out.


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## KittenStrangler (Mar 26, 2010)

In all fairness, Rashad is right. It would be stupid for him to stand with other fighters seeing as how his striking isn't good and his chin is made of glass. I mean, look at his last two fights. There was about 30 seconds of stand up the entire match and Rashad managed to get rocked each time. His style is god awful but it's the only style he can do.


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## The Dark Knight (Jun 29, 2008)

Rashad said it as perfectly as anybody could, naturally. Wrestling is fundamental part of MMA whether anybody likes it or not. And I don't buy this nonsense about people only criticising Rashad for not improving his position and 'layin' & prayin'. Like he said he was hitting Ramp the whole time, but they only become more effective and violent during the last round, so I guess that cancels out the part about him 'laying' on the opponent. 


As far as takedowns are concerned, well a takedown is a lot harder to execute than a punch or kick, hence why they score a lot of points.


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## Kreed (Feb 5, 2007)

KittenStrangler said:


> In all fairness, Rashad is right. It would be stupid for him to stand with other fighters seeing as how his striking isn't good and his chin is made of glass. I mean, look at his last two fights. There was about 30 seconds of stand up the entire match and Rashad managed to get rocked each time. His style is god awful but it's the only style he can do.


Which goes back to my point on the hypocrisy of these haters who downplayed his wins against lidddell/griffin.

How can u say he was getting outclassed until he made a lucky punch in those fight..Then turn around and criticize him for not wanting to stand with a thiago silva/rampage who both have one punch KO power..


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

The Dark Knight said:


> Rashad said it as perfectly as anybody could, naturally. Wrestling is fundamental part of MMA whether anybody likes it or not. And I don't buy this nonsense about people only criticising Rashad for not improving his position and 'layin' & prayin'. Like he said he was hitting Ramp the whole time, but they only become more effective and violent during the last round, so I guess that cancels out the part about him 'laying' on the opponent.
> 
> 
> As far as takedowns are concerned, well a takedown is a lot harder to execute than a punch or kick, hence why they score a lot of points.


The statistics show his last two fights, the T.Silva fight even more so, are two of the biggest non event fights that I can think of. I compared his stats to Fitch, King Mo etc and Rashad does less than all these guys. It's such a watered down way to get a victory, yet you talk about it like it's some rounded MMA display that is action packed. It isn't, he does less than the vast majority of wrestlers and that is saying something.

Of course wrestling is a part of MMA, but as a single entity it is not really combat. Some pitter patter and 10 seconds of GnP don't make up for that. Rashad controlled 15 minutes of fighting with wrestling and how many significant punches did he actually land? How many passes? How many sub attempts? A short burst of GnP doesn't make up for that, and looking active by punching Rampage's knee is just stalling, there's nothing to gain from doing that. Then flick back to T.Silva, even less. It was all control and you can't really say it wasn't. He didn't fight that day, he controlled.

How can you defend what he did against T.Silva?

Just saying 'wrestling is a part of MMA' isn't argument, unless you think someone who straight wrestles with zero of anything else is MMA? I'm not saying Rashad does that, but he's not far off and therefore is close to not fighting.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Hiro said:


> The statistics show his last two fights, the T.Silva fight even more so, are two of the biggest non event fights that I can think of. I compared his stats to Fitch, King Mo etc and Rashad does less than all these guys. It's such a watered down way to get a victory, yet you talk about it like it's some rounded MMA display that is action packed. It isn't, he does less than the vast majority of wrestlers and that is saying something.
> 
> Of course wrestling is a part of MMA, but as a single entity it is not really combat. Some pitter patter and 10 seconds of GnP don't make up for that. Rashad controlled 15 minutes of fighting with wrestling and *how many significant punches did he actually land? How many passes? How many sub attempts?* A short burst of GnP doesn't make up for that, and looking active by punching Rampage's knee is just stalling, there's nothing to gain from doing that. Then flick back to T.Silva, even less. It was all control and you can't really say it wasn't. He didn't fight that day, he controlled.
> 
> ...


Well according to Rampage those knee shots were really effective... or at least hitting him in a spot that he was hurt. SoI would say a lot more than you are letting on! Ha! Just kidding I know what you are saying.

The thing is wrestling is a part of MMA and that is all the argument people need. When MMA first started every single fighter was one dimensional so there were wrestlers. The only difference was that no one knew what BJJ was so everyone kept getting submited. Now Rashad is well rounded in wrestling, Kickboxing, and submission defense. He did go for passes but like I have said before whenever he did Rampage stood up. Don't fault Rashad for going up against a good oponent and having a hard time with him.

Rashad has never gotten a submission in any of his fights...(maybe his first one?) so you expect him to start in an extremely important fight against someone who is very dangerous and has never been submitted? Even by people who it is there thing to get submisions? Also when he goes for the submisions that would probably not work Rampage would stand back up where he is much more dangerous.

Rashad played it smart and went for the win, but I still saw it as an entertaining fight.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Id rather see 10 lay and pray wrestlers in one night then see Rashad stall against the cage all fight. Not even sure why that scores, that's pretty mch a neutral position, and the fact that you can stay in a neutral position for 3 minutes of a 5 minute round with no referee intervention is retarded. Rashad is one of the worst fighters to watch because he has trouble even controlling guys on the ground, so he just molests them against the cage and "scores"....somehow..


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

TLC said:


> Id rather see 10 lay and pray wrestlers in one night then see Rashad stall against the cage all fight. Not even sure why that scores, that's pretty mch a neutral position, and the fact that you can stay in a neutral position for 3 minutes of a 5 minute round with no referee intervention is retarded. Rashad is one of the worst fighters to watch because he has trouble even controlling guys on the ground, so he just molests them against the cage and "scores"....somehow..


Definately was like 45 seconds... at least from what I remember.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

....


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

oldfan said:


> ....


Now find a gif for the 13 minutes and 55 seconds of non action. The other minute is made up from Rashad getting rocked and him also landing a bit of GnP.

WHAT A FIGHT :thumb02:


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Hiro said:


> Now find a gif for the 13 minutes and 55 seconds of non action. The other minute is made up from Rashad getting rocked and him also landing a bit of GnP.
> 
> WHAT A FIGHT :thumb02:


And takedowns. And rashad moving in and out of Rampage's huge bombs.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

The505Butcher said:


> And takedowns. And rashad moving in and out of Rampage's huge bombs.


Movement lead to takedowns, takedowns lead to...

... oh yeh, nothing :thumb02:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

coldcall420 said:


> Rep is earned around here much like you have earned yours, he comes with that crap and he gets a welcome.....now earn our respect...
> 
> As far as your new account or upgrade, one thing I would try doing first is simply logging off and then refreshing the screen, once you do this then click on the lifetime membership and there should be a terms and agreement page and then a bio page. Hopefully this works for you if not let me know you can Pm me if you need anything...:thumb02:


I know you weren't talking to me but I'm having the same problem with up grading. I (think) I followed your advice but it wants me to register a new account with new name, says mine is taken (took me so long to think of this one) is there a mmaforum for dummies section? :confused02:


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## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

oldfan said:


> *That's just not fair.* And I used to hate Rashad and anticipate his first defeat.
> 
> Was he afraid to engage with Chuck?
> Did he lay on forrest much?
> ...


I concur....that line of thinking is complete horseshit.

Rashad has used a wrestling based gameplan against 2 fighters....all the while knocking out and G'N'Pounding his opponents to win the belt...yet people are negating all of this because he has beaten 2 LHW posterboys (Rampage and Thiago). *Self-serving amnesia if you ask me.* :thumbsdown:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Hiro said:


> Now find a gif for the 13 minutes and 55 seconds of non action. The other minute is made up from Rashad getting rocked and him also landing a bit of GnP.
> 
> WHAT A FIGHT :thumb02:


I searched the entire innerweb no such gif exists. So I have decided to learn how to download illegal copyrighted streaming videos and make my own. Just for you. ...This shouldn't take long... I hope it's easier than learning how to upgrade my account...:confused02:


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Sekou said:


> I concur....that line of thinking is complete horseshit.
> 
> Rashad has used a wrestling based gameplan against 2 fighters....all the while knocking out and G'N'Pounding his opponents to win the belt...yet people are negating all of this because he has beaten 2 LHW posterboys (Rampage and Thiago). *Self-serving amnesia if you ask me.* :thumbsdown:


A lot of people dislike Rashad because he has fought and beaten Forrest, Chuck, Bonar, Thiago, and now Rampage.

I do wish the booing would stop.


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

Most ppl have been critical of certain ways wrestling has evolved in mma ( repeated takedown without followup to score points, using wrestling to avoid the fight etc ) . So imo hes not really adressing the issue hes just talking as if all critics boo if the fight hit the ground.

Obviously if you dont like ground game at all then you dont like mma, but thats not what rashad is saying. hes putting word in our mouths claiming thats what we are like. not liking point wrestling in mma is a personal thing, i dont like it, that doesnt make me any less of a mma fan than anybody else. Its the same thing GSP said that made me a bit angry, "if you dont like my style then your not a REAL fan", imo thats counterproductive of getting real fans.... if theres a dress code to a party you show up in a suit becouse you have to not becouse you want.... Id bet most of rashads and GSPs fans dislike the way they have been fighting lately, but when they(GSP,Rashad) say something like that, they(fans) just have to shut up and dont say anything cuz if you do - well then you arent considered a "real" fan by the fighter you support. How about these fighters stop asking their fans for everything and get angry when they ask for something back.In their own words they say that the most important thing is to win, fine, but then they cant get angry when their fans turn their back, if they dont care at all about entertaining their fans then they shouldnt ask for anything back from them either.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> A lot of people dislike Rashad because he has fought and beaten Forrest, Chuck, Bonar, Thiago, and now Rampage.


I don't know. I see how Cain Velasquez, who is also a great wrestler, improves and shows more and more exciting fights ending impressively. His fights are interesting to watch whereas Rashad's are just boring (except for the one with Machida). This is the real reason why I like this HW contender and dislike Evans and GSP (Fitch as well). All of them are excellent wrestlers, but only one of them is beautiful to watch and root for, because he started to focus more on finishing his domination by TKO/KO.


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## MikeHawk (Sep 11, 2009)

People don't like Rashad because he hasn't been going for the finish lately. I think the KO from Machida turned Rashad back into a wrestler.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

MikeHawk said:


> People don't like Rashad because he hasn't been going for the finish lately. I think the KO from Machida turned Rashad back into a wrestler.


There are a couple of ways of looking at this... He can fight the way the other guy fights best, and lose, or he can fight to his strengths and probably win.
Hmmm... what to do? What to do?


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## Fedorbator (Jun 17, 2010)

Majortom505 said:


> There are a couple of ways of looking at this... *He can fight the way the other guy fights best, and lose*, or he can fight to his strengths and probably win.
> Hmmm... what to do? What to do?


Or... He can fight the way the other guy fights best and *win* like one of the truly great fighters, Fedor. Oh yea... didn't work out so well for him.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> He can fight the way the other guy fights best, and lose, or he can fight to his strengths and probably win.
> Hmmm... what to do? What to do?


There is nothing wrong with that. He simply will never achieve the same success as the biggest MMA stars.

Wanderlei Silva was long-time champion and his fights are always very entertaining. People love him.

Chuck Liddell, The same thing.

Fedor Emelianenko has beaten everyone he's faced and, most importantly, by letting opponents dictate where the fight goes. He wrestled with wrestlers, exchanged with strikers and was constantly on the ground with BJJ guys. And he beat them all.

Randy Couture. Surprised everyone with his ability to successfully fight at such age. The other important notion is that he won LHW and HW championships in UFC.

Dan Henderson. Double PRIDE champion, never been knocked out.

Anderson Silva. Everyone knows his accomplishments, including his invasion in LHW division where he made one of the best lightheavyweights Forrest Griffin look like a schoolboy. And this is the the most stacked division we are talking about. And Forrest is a big LHW. Anderson is interesting to watch because you never know what to expect from the guy, he can smash you in an instant, if he feels like it, or he can play with his victim like a cat with a mouse.

GSP. He's a Canadian (in a way it makes him unique among the other Canadian fighters who haven't even remotely achieved the same amount of success). He has an excellent winning streak, but he's become extremely cautious which made his fights not very exciting.

Forrest Griffin. The original Ultimate Fighter. The former UFC champion.

The other fighters like Royce Gracie and Ken Shamrock can also be added here for obvious reasons.

At this point, Evans seems like a guy who wants to become the next GSP at LHW. To become the great you need to have something unique in your career that other fighters don't. Rashad Evans doesn't have it, at least yet. If he keeps "decisioning" people, he'll be remembered as a boring champion and not for long. If he never gets the belt again, he won't be remembered at all.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

N1™ said:


> Most ppl have been critical of certain ways wrestling has evolved in mma ( repeated takedown without followup to score points, using wrestling to avoid the fight etc ) . So imo hes not really adressing the issue hes just talking as if all critics boo if the fight hit the ground.
> 
> Obviously if you dont like ground game at all then you dont like mma, but thats not what rashad is saying. hes putting word in our mouths claiming thats what we are like. not liking point wrestling in mma is a personal thing, i dont like it, that doesnt make me any less of a mma fan than anybody else. Its the same thing GSP said that made me a bit angry, "if you dont like my style then your not a REAL fan", imo thats counterproductive of getting real fans.... if theres a dress code to a party you show up in a suit becouse you have to not becouse you want.... Id bet most of rashads and GSPs fans dislike the way they have been fighting lately, but when they(GSP,Rashad) say something like that, they(fans) just have to shut up and dont say anything cuz if you do - well then you arent considered a "real" fan by the fighter you support. How about these fighters stop asking their fans for everything and get angry when they ask for something back.In their own words they say that the most important thing is to win, fine, but then they cant get angry when their fans turn their back, if they dont care at all about entertaining their fans then they shouldnt ask for anything back from them either.





The_Senator said:


> I don't know. I see how Cain Velasquez, who is also a great wrestler, improves and shows more and more exciting fights ending impressively. His fights are interesting to watch whereas Rashad's are just boring (except for the one with Machida). This is the real reason why I like this HW contender and dislike Evans and GSP (Fitch as well). All of them are excellent wrestlers, but only one of them is beautiful to watch and root for, because he started to focus more on finishing his domination by TKO/KO.


I have and always will be a fan of Rashad and I was saying it was an entertaining fight long before this.

Cain velaquez is good and he is ever improving and I enjoy his fights too. But wrestling is part of MMA and if you don't like it then you do not like MMA in it's entirety.(is that a word?)

I am not saying go watch something else but Rashad has a point in telling people that say they are true fans of the sport that they are not if they do not like his, GSP's Fitch's, so on's style. They get the take down to completely eliminate the not well rounded fighters offense. I would like to see KO's and submissions just as much as everyone, the difference is that I think there is a lot of skill shown when a fighter completely dominates another fighter for 15 minutes.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

The505Butcher said:


> I have and always will be a fan of Rashad and I was saying it was an entertaining fight long before this.
> 
> Cain velaquez is good and he is ever improving and I enjoy his fights too. But wrestling is part of MMA and if you don't like it then you do not like MMA in it's entirety.(is that a word?)
> 
> I am not saying go watch something else but Rashad has a point in telling people that say they are true fans of the sport that they are not if they do not like his, GSP's Fitch's, so on's style. They get the take down to completely eliminate the not well rounded fighters offense. I would like to see KO's and submissions just as much as everyone, the difference is that I think there is a lot of skill shown when a fighter completely dominates another fighter for 15 minutes.


Quoted for truth.

Even the casual fan, if they would sit still for a minute or two and concentrate, should be quickly able to see and appreciate the technical aspects of grappling, and eventually to appreciate the fighter's greater gameplan. Whether or not they find it entertaining.

I don't always watch MMA because I expect to be entertained. I hope to learn something, and watch a display of athleticism at the elite level.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> But wrestling is part of MMA and if you don't like it then you do not like MMA in it's entirety.(is that a word?)


Right, but it makes me want to root for Rashad's opponent. I wanted Liddell to beat him, then Machida, then Silva and Rampage. All of that solely because of his fighting style and lack of finishing, and not because Rashad wants to keep it on the ground. Like I said I like Velasquez, he's good example of a versatile exciting and humble fighter whose biggest strength is wrestling.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

The_Senator said:


> Right, but it makes me want to root for Rashad's opponent. I wanted Liddell to beat him, then Machida, then Silva and Rampage. All of that solely because of his fighting style and lack of finishing, and not because Rashad wants to keep it on the ground. Like I said I like Velasquez, he's good example of a versatile exciting and humble fighter.


Ok I do not have a problem with that. I do have a problem with people saying he is boring and not a fighter and insulting him because of his inteligent last two fights.

Oh and completely agree swpthleg.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

The505Butcher said:


> I have and always will be a fan of Rashad and I was saying it was an entertaining fight long before this.
> 
> Cain velaquez is good and he is ever improving and I enjoy his fights too. But wrestling is part of MMA and if you don't like it then you do not like MMA in it's entirety.(is that a word?)
> 
> I am not saying go watch something else but Rashad has a point in telling people that say they are true fans of the sport that they are not if they do not like his, GSP's Fitch's, so on's style. They get the take down to completely eliminate the not well rounded fighters offense. I would like to see KO's and submissions just as much as everyone, the difference is that I think there is a lot of skill shown when a fighter completely dominates another fighter for 15 minutes.


Rashad isn't dominating in a combative sense though, is he? He controlled Rampage and Silva, he didn't dominate because they came out having never been close to even being hurt (minus the big right on Rampage, obviously). 

I don't appreciate the notion that I don't understand the skill involved in what Rashad does, because I fully acknowledge it and give Rashad credit for it. But it's skillful control which is just about what you could call fighting, but that's my issue. It's so watered down and close to the line between a control fest and an actual MMA fight. 

You put Rashad in the same sentence as GSP and Fitch, but I've said countless times that he does far less than GSP, and from the stats I've seen less than Fitch. GSP will rain down GnP or go for subs, or both. Rashad has been unable to do this in his last two fights, how can you compare the two? So no, I don't think he has a point. I think he should recognise that his ability to go beyond control and be an effective fighter is limited, and while he can win decisions it is the most unconvincing and boring way to do it in many fans' eyes.



N1™;1205456 said:


> *Most ppl have been critical of certain ways wrestling has evolved in mma ( repeated takedown without followup to score points, using wrestling to avoid the fight etc ) . So imo hes not really adressing the issue hes just talking as if all critics boo if the fight hit the ground.*
> 
> Obviously if you dont like ground game at all then you dont like mma, but thats not what rashad is saying. hes putting word in our mouths claiming thats what we are like. not liking point wrestling in mma is a personal thing, i dont like it, that doesnt make me any less of a mma fan than anybody else.


This is a very good point. I agree with everything here, particularly the part in bold. It's actually insulting to my intelligence for Rashad to sit back and throw my opinion in with all the mindless idiots that don't like the ground game and boo when it gets there. Do something down there or against the cage, i.e when you have control of the other guy and I'll quit moaning. It's very very simple.

I enjoyed GSP domination of Hardy, go figure Rashad.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Hiro said:


> Rashad isn't dominating in a combative sense though, is he? He controlled Rampage and Silva, he didn't dominate because they came out having never been close to even being hurt (minus the big right on Rampage, obviously).
> 
> I don't appreciate the notion that I don't understand the skill involved in what Rashad does, because I fully acknowledge it and give Rashad credit for it. But it's skillful control which is just about what you could call fighting, but that's my issue. It's so watered down and close to the line between a control fest and an actual MMA fight.
> 
> ...


Dude you are comparing Rashad to what people are saying is the best fighter in the world. I know a lot of people say different things and I do not want to argue that. What i used is that Rashad might not have done as much as GSP in his fights where he usually has a skill advantage in pretty much everything and a size advantage, but he did a lot of work and his only fault is not finishing the fight.

Correct me if I am wrong but has Rampage ever been submitted and how much damage can Rampage take before he gets KO'ed? And you are faulting Rashad for that?


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

There's really no point in arguing this case lol

It's like: ignorant people vs people with brains

It's a sport, you play to win, entertainment comes second. I'm sure Kobe would love to just go for flashy shit in all of his games, but he helped lead his team to a victory. I'm sure Lionel Messi would love to get the ball all the time and drive it in and attempt to score every goal, but he'd rather win the cup for his country than show off. I'm sure RASHAD EVANS would finish all of his fights if he the opportunity arises, but he's not going to throw bombs all day hoping to land a shot just so you guys can cream your pants. He's risking his health out there, this is his job guys, the money he makes fighting helps support his family. Winning can net you double your salary for the fight, why risk doubling your salary to get a bunch of fake ignorant mma fans a hard on? Lets not forget that Rashad landed a big shot on rampage at the beginning of the fight and went in for the kill...but hey, no one talks about that right?


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

The505Butcher said:


> Dude you are comparing Rashad to what people are saying is the best fighter in the world. I know a lot of people say different things and I do not want to argue that. What i used is that Rashad might not have done as much as GSP in his fights where he usually has a skill advantage in pretty much everything and a size advantage, but he did a lot of work and his only fault is not finishing the fight.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong but has Rampage ever been submitted and how much damage can Rampage take before he gets KO'ed? And you are faulting Rashad for that?


Hang on, your post used GSP, Fitch and Rashad comparitively, I just responded to that.

I can compare Rashad to any ground fighter with a solid wrestling base, he has done less than the vast majority in his last 2 fights.

Rashad is unable to progress against top fighters, despite being able to control them. I understand that and I know he wants to. The fact he can't makes it boring and unconvincing. It's almost like a stalemate, he can't really do anything significant and the other guy can't move. When a fighter is brilliant at wrestling but not brilliant at anything else, this is what you get when he faces other top fighters. He can neutralise them, but he can't beat them up or effectively grapple with them. 

Like someone else said he will never go down as one of the all time greats with that style. It's happened in two straight fights and it will have to happen again if he is to beat Shogun.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Hiro said:


> Hang on, your post used GSP, Fitch and Rashad comparitively, I just responded to that.
> 
> I can compare Rashad to any ground fighter with a solid wrestling base, he has done less than the vast majority in his last 2 fights.
> 
> ...


No I did not compare their styles. I said that for fans who do not like their styles that they are not complete fans of MMA.

So what is it exactly that you want? I am confused. Do you want Rashad to step out of his comfort zone and risk a loss? Do you want him to lose fights? Do you want him to appologize for a performance that he did nothing wrong in?


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

The505Butcher said:


> No I did not compare their styles. I said that for fans who do not like their styles that they are not complete fans of MMA.
> 
> So what is it exactly that you want? I am confused. Do you want Rashad to step out of his comfort zone and risk a loss? Do you want him to lose fights? Do you want him to appologize for a performance that he did nothing wrong in?


Ok my bad, you didn't compare them, but you referred to them collectively as if they were the same, hence me pointing out the difference.

I want to see Rashad improve and whoop on fools when he outwrestles them. Maybe he needs some new BJJ coaching, I dunno.


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

The505Butcher said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but has Rampage ever been submitted and how much damage can Rampage take before he gets KO'ed? And you are faulting Rashad for that?


but thats the point, Rashad thinks " i cant KO him, i cant sub him so ill just stall the fight and claim "artistic performance" after. Nobodys saying you have to finish the fight, but you have to fight, thats what the fans are paying for, thats your job. But wait, theres a loophole in the rules " if you takedown your opponent multiple times even tho you dont do anything with it in 2 rounds then all you have to do is press your opponent against the cage for the last and youve won". you guys honestly think thats ok ? 
also Rashad says that mixed martial arts consists of various types of martial arts , thats exactly right rashad but you guys' cowardly ( yes i said it ) form of wrestling hinders us from seeing any of them ( styles ).
maybe just maybe if you cant outstrike them,you cant outgrapple em and you cant GnP em then you sir ,should loose the fight.


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## Fedorbator (Jun 17, 2010)

N1™ said:


> but thats the point, Rashad thinks " i cant KO him, i cant sub him so ill just stall the fight and claim "artistic performance" after. Nobodys saying you have to finish the fight, but you have to fight, thats what the fans are paying for, thats your job. But wait, theres a loophole in the rules " if you takedown your opponent multiple times even tho you dont do anything with it in 2 rounds then all you have to do is press your opponent against the cage for the last and youve won". you guys honestly think thats ok ?
> also Rashad says that mixed martial arts consists of various types of martial arts , thats exactly right rashad but you guys' cowardly ( yes i said it ) form of wrestling hinders us from seeing any of them ( styles ).
> maybe just maybe if you cant outstrike them,you cant outgrapple em and you cant GnP em then you sir ,should loose the fight.


Finally, someone with logic!


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## themmadude (May 28, 2010)

Rashad imposed his will on Rampage. If you can't stop someome from doing something, and you can't impose your own will. You lose. Ask the Marines if you have to.


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

themmadude said:


> Rashad imposed his will on Rampage. If you can't stop someome from doing something, and you can't impose your own will. You lose. Ask the Marines if you have to.


what does that even mean ? Is beeing a marine a sport ?


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

well, here it is, my first ever gif. 

Hiro, now that i've seen the rashad rampage gif you made I'd really appreciate any tips you have. That was great!
I did mine with linux which is some language for "free if you can figure it out" it was still easier than upgrading but that was worth it.

*It's a hoot seeing who the cowardly anonymous neggers really are are.* :thumb02:


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## js9234 (Apr 8, 2007)

This fight wasn't near as bad as some of you are making it. Ya'll are acting like Rashad didn't even try to hit Rampage and he hit him every chance he had. Rampage is a strong guy and hard to hold down so Rashad had to secure the takedown and get in a dominant position to be able to throw some punches. I actually liked the fight. I thought it was entertaining.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

N1™ said:


> but thats the point, Rashad thinks " i cant KO him, i cant sub him so ill just stall the fight and claim "artistic performance" after. Nobodys saying you have to finish the fight, but you have to fight, thats what the fans are paying for, thats your job. But wait, theres a loophole in the rules " if you takedown your opponent multiple times even tho you dont do anything with it in 2 rounds then all you have to do is press your opponent against the cage for the last and youve won". you guys honestly think thats ok ?
> also Rashad says that mixed martial arts consists of various types of martial arts , thats exactly right rashad but you guys' cowardly ( yes i said it ) form of wrestling hinders us from seeing any of them ( styles ).
> maybe just maybe if you cant outstrike them,you cant outgrapple em and you cant GnP em then you sir ,should loose the fight.





Hiro said:


> Ok my bad, you didn't compare them, but you referred to them collectively as if they were the same, hence me pointing out the difference.
> 
> I want to see Rashad improve and whoop on fools when he outwrestles them. Maybe he needs some new BJJ coaching, I dunno.


except he got two takedowns in the third... (my memory is hazy after TUFinale) nad he got more strikes in standing up and he went for passes to do more damage. It was a hard fought technical fight that had few brawls which is why it is a boring fight now. Just because someone has a hard time finishing someone does not mean they should lose.

Hiro:
I agree there is a difference in Rashad's style and GSP's and Fitch's. But they are roughly similar don't you agree?

I like greg jackson for his submission defense training... but I think you are right. I don't know of many of his fighters getting the Sub so you may have a point he might need to train submission offense with someone else. Would be very interesting to see a Rashad that submits people as well.


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## Finnsidious (Mar 14, 2009)

N1™ said:


> but thats the point, Rashad thinks " i cant KO him, i cant sub him so ill just stall the fight and claim "artistic performance" after. Nobodys saying you have to finish the fight, but you have to fight, thats what the fans are paying for, thats your job. But wait, theres a loophole in the rules " if you takedown your opponent multiple times even tho you dont do anything with it in 2 rounds then all you have to do is press your opponent against the cage for the last and youve won". you guys honestly think thats ok ?
> also Rashad says that mixed martial arts consists of various types of martial arts , thats exactly right rashad but you guys' cowardly ( yes i said it ) form of wrestling hinders us from seeing any of them ( styles ).
> maybe just maybe if you cant outstrike them,you cant outgrapple em and you cant GnP em then you sir ,should loose the fight.


 You're so right, it makes WAY more sense that someone who can't defend takedowns, can't defend grappling, and can't land a solid punch should win the fight. 

If you get taken down repeatedly, and never take down the other fighter, you should definately win! 

Dan Hardy totally kicked GSP's ass, and Rampage was obviously the better fighter against Rashad, they TOTALLY deserved to win.

Now thats logic ladies and gentlemen.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

Finnsidious said:


> You're so right, it makes WAY more sense that someone who can't defend takedowns, can't defend grappling, and can't land a solid punch should win the fight.
> 
> If you get taken down repeatedly, and never take down the other fighter, you should definately win!
> 
> ...


Ha ha ha ha. Very good! Very good indeed.


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## The Dark Knight (Jun 29, 2008)

Finnsidious said:


> You're so right, it makes WAY more sense that someone who can't defend takedowns, can't defend grappling, and can't land a solid punch should win the fight.
> 
> If you get taken down repeatedly, and never take down the other fighter, you should definately win!
> 
> ...


THIS.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

The505Butcher said:


> Hiro:
> I agree there is a difference in Rashad's style and GSP's and Fitch's. But they are roughly similar don't you agree?
> 
> I like greg jackson for his submission defense training... but I think you are right. I don't know of many of his fighters getting the Sub so you may have a point he might need to train submission offense with someone else. Would be very interesting to see a Rashad that submits people as well.


They are ground fighters based on recent performances, but very different in that Fitch can make a fight of it down there and GSP fully dominates whoever he fights.

Not only sub offense but also just to be able to transition and make some progress. There's waaaay too much inactivity as far as I'm concerned, and that's down to limited capability to progress. He couldn't even hold Bisping down. If all he is going to do is dance around and set up good shots, but then do jack shit when it gets to the mat, then I'll be critical. As said I like Rashad but he needs to work on using wrestling to fight and not wrestling to control. There is a difference, I don't think I'm off the point in saying so.


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

Finnsidious said:


> You're so right, it makes WAY more sense that someone who can't defend takedowns, can't defend grappling, and can't land a solid punch should win the fight.
> 
> If you get taken down repeatedly, and never take down the other fighter, you should definately win!
> 
> ...


dont twist my words. i said that if you only go for takedowns without followup and pressing your opponent against the cage to score points you arent really fighting. Also GSP can do standup and so can rashad.


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## Gopherchucks (Jun 20, 2010)

I've never really liked Rashad's style and usually root against him, but I respect his ability to use wrestling to control fights. In my opinion its his opponent's responsibility to either stuff the takedown and smash his face in or do something offensive from the bottom. I do see the point about stalling and not really fighting, in the Rampage fight I think he had him up against the fence 5-6 times and only punching his thigh.

When fighters are up against the fence that much doing nothing with the ref breaking them up everytime it doesn't really make for an exciting fight. I love an exciting ground fight as much as a stand up war, no bias there, but in his last two fights Rashad hasn't done much to advance his positions on the ground or shown much intent to finish the fight. By all means, do what you can within the rules to get the win, but if this way of fighting would prove to be enough to get the belt I would be disappointed. Not too worried about that though, there are quite a few fighters at 205 who have the skills to not be dominated by Rashad's wrestling.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

Gopherchucks said:


> I've never really liked Rashad's style and usually root against him, but I respect his ability to use wrestling to control fights. In my opinion its his opponent's responsibility to either stuff the takedown and smash his face in or do something offensive from the bottom. I do see the point about stalling and not really fighting, in the Rampage fight I think he had him up against the fence 5-6 times and only punching his thigh.
> 
> When fighters are up against the fence that much doing nothing with the ref breaking them up everytime it doesn't really make for an exciting fight. I love an exciting ground fight as much as a stand up war, no bias there, but in his last two fights Rashad hasn't done much to advance his positions on the ground or shown much intent to finish the fight. By all means, do what you can within the rules to get the win, but if this way of fighting would prove to be enough to get the belt I would be disappointed. Not too worried about that though, there are quite a few fighters at 205 who have the skills to not be dominated by Rashad's wrestling.


Help me here... How is this type of fighting different from Randy Couture's? Randy wins and he spends about 14 mins pushing his opponent against the fence. Last I saw, Couture was one of the most popular fighters in the UFC.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

Majortom505 said:


> Help me here... How is this type of fighting different from Randy Couture's? Randy wins and he spends about 14 mins pushing his opponent against the fence. Last I saw, Couture was one of the most popular fighters in the UFC.


How many times has Couture done that?


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## Gopherchucks (Jun 20, 2010)

Majortom505 said:


> Help me here... How is this type of fighting different from Randy Couture's? Randy wins and he spends about 14 mins pushing his opponent against the fence. Last I saw, Couture was one of the most popular fighters in the UFC.


Couture's dirty boxing while pinning his opponents against the fence seems a bit more effective than Rashad's thigh punching. At his best Couture was able to put a real beating on people with that technique, Rashad is pretty far from Couture's level in that area IMO.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

People should rewatch the second round of the Rashad/Rampage fight. Rashad completely outclasses Rampage standing. It was your classic "speed dominates the power" kind of striking match.

Mike Goldberg asked Rogan what Rampage could do to stop Rashad, and even he said, "I don't know.."

People have been calling Rashad a blanket for a long time now and I just don't get it. Sure, the Thiago fight was pretty slow, but the Rampage fight was definitely entertaining.

*And the only reason why the fight was so entertaining? Rashad came to fight while Rampage came to try and stop Rashad's wrestling.*


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