# Sherdog.com's Pound-for-Pound Top 10



## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

> Two Saturday fight nights in a row, two pound-for-pound stars reiterated and reinvigorated their cases to be considered the sport's pound-for-pound king.
> 
> At Affliction M-1 Global "Day of Reckoning" on Jan. 24, Fedor Emelianenko was sluggish out of the gate against an on-point Andrei Arlovski, and after three minutes of peppering jabs and right hands, had an air of serious morality. Then, with a single overhand right, Emelianenko erased those three minutes and another elite heavyweight with another brutal finish.
> 
> ...


http://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/sherdogcoms-pound-for-pound-top-10-16043

This list isn't that great IMO.


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## enufced904 (Jul 17, 2008)

I would take Jackson out and put Faber in.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Wrong section.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

i dont like Mike brown in there, the win over Faber was more of Faber making the wrong move at the wrong time IMO. I think Faber will maul him in there next fight.

the top 3 all have an argument at being the best and it so hard to tell who really is, so i would say all 3 of them are the best.

Lyoto must be pretty close to making the list now, i would have him above mike brown for sure.


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## TERMINATOR (Jul 6, 2008)

enufced904 said:


> I would take Jackson out and put Faber in.


I would take griffin out and put faber in:thumbsup:


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## LCRaiders (Apr 7, 2008)

BJ Penn is the greatest in my eyes but i believe that Check Kongo will soon be up there! He will dominate the heavyweight divison in no time.


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## MooJuice (Dec 12, 2008)

imo, should be:

Fedor
A. Silva
GSP
Miguel Torres

from there on tho, with rashad/machida/forrest/penn/alvez etc, i wouldnt call it confidently. But even if my order is slightly off, i'd put those 4 at the top without hesitation. Sherdog's rankings dont really make sense to me - its hard to tell if they are judging on all performances, or just recent ones.


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## Sicilian_Esq (Sep 7, 2008)

For me, Pound for Pound should be determined by the weight-spread by which a fighter has proven his dominance. Simply being the best at a certain weight class shouldn't make you a P4P great. 

Anderson Silva has shown he's #1, as he is a force to be reckoned with at 205 and is the best at 185. 

Fedor has a huge weight spread to defend at heavyweight, and his dominance over it gives him #2. 

Penn has the ability to move up to 170, but his greatness is diminished as a result. However, he is dominant at 155. His spread is thinner, but it is a spread, so he should be #3. 

Henderson should be #4 because he is defeated Franklin, and still can be a force at 185 while remaining a threat at 205. 

Franklin is #2 at 185, and a contender at 205, even though he lost to Henderson. So he's my #5.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Anderson Silva #1, again? I really like Anderson, but he has no business being #1, having only beaten three top 10 fighters in his weight-class. The guys he beat aren't scrubs, but they haven't exactly been anywhere near as tough as the guys GSP has had to face. There's no denying his skillset, but when you're facing guys that aren't technically as skilled as you, then your wins don't mean as much IMO. 

1. GSP
2. Fedor
3. Anderson Silva


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## kamikaze145 (Oct 3, 2006)

wow, Forrest Griffin in the P4P list, thats ridiculous. Mike Brown beating Urijah Faber sure as hell does not put him on there either. I also dont think Quinton should be on there, his bjj is awful from what I have seen and he does not even know how to check kicks. He is a good boxer with solid wrestling. Weak list.


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## Cartheron (Sep 5, 2007)

Posting in a p4p thread.


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## Buckingham (Apr 8, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Anderson Silva #1, again? I really like Anderson, but he has no business being #1, having only beaten three top 10 fighters in his weight-class. The guys he beat aren't scrubs, but they haven't exactly been anywhere near as tough as the guys GSP has had to face. There's no denying his skillset, but when you're facing guys that aren't technically as skilled as you, then your wins don't mean as much IMO.
> 
> 1. GSP
> 2. Fedor
> 3. Anderson Silva


Gsp got knocked tap 3 fights ago.


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## diemos (Nov 7, 2007)

I don't understand how can you have #1,2,3 pound for pound fighters if they are all in different weight classes. This is nonsense. 

We should look at fighters in their own weight class. But if we want to take pound for pound in ALL WEIGHT classes, then how come its still not obvious that FEDOR is #1. The guy never lost! and he beat two top 5 heavyweights in the last year. This guy almost have nobody to fight with since he beat everybody. The argument of him not fighting top competition is not valid. He just fought AA. Furthermore he beat all top heavyweight in their prime excluding Barnett of course. 

I think people don't place Fedor as #1 simply because he is not in UFC and for some reason they have doubts that if he would come to UFC he would have trouble as Cro Cop did, Shogun, Nog, etc. but that point should still stand as of now, he never lost and should be considered #1 without a doubt by all.


#2 would either be GSP or Anderson Silva, I can't pick this one.


edit: also as for #4 BJ Penn, you gotta be out of your f*****king mind. He is 13-5 and in the last FOUR years he is 4-4 in his last 8 fights. How can he even be considered in Top 5? That score is horrible and he just got destroyed by GSP. The guy is good but not THAT good, I guess he has a huge army of fanboys.

oh and wait.. if BJ PENN is #4 then i Guess SHOGUN should be #2? I mean, he lost to forrest, but its ok (right? cuz penn lost to gsp and he is still #4) So, before Forrest, Shogun lost in 2006 to Coleman, BUT he just beat him at UFC 93... and before his lost to Forrest he beat Overeem, Nakamura, Randleman, Arona and list keeps going, and he was considered #1 pound for pound LHW. So what does rank does that make him? Oh wait!! Many people don't even consider him in Top 10. 

Anyways, just my 1c


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Im not sure about Forrest/Rampage/Alves all of them are used to being the bigger guy in there fights which makes it difficult IMO to rank them in the P4P, I think Aoki would make a much better addition than any of those 3 as would Faber or Jon Fitch whose 5 round war with GSP seems all the more impressive now.


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## Buckingham (Apr 8, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Jon Fitch whose 5 round war with GSP seems all the more impressive now.


A war for Fitch but not GSP.


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## NameThief (Dec 28, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> Anderson Silva #1, again? I really like Anderson, but he has no business being #1, having only beaten three top 10 fighters in his weight-class. The guys he beat aren't scrubs, but they haven't exactly been anywhere near as tough as the guys GSP has had to face. There's no denying his skillset, but when you're facing guys that aren't technically as skilled as you, then your wins don't mean as much IMO.
> 
> 1. GSP
> 2. Fedor
> 3. Anderson Silva


Honestly, I don't know a single guy who St. Pierre has beaten of late that I could say for sure could beat Hendo, Franklin or Marquardt.

But, I'll say this, I've honestly been a lot more impressed by Rashad's victories, this past year, than any of the 3 up there.

With all due respect.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

I would definatly remove Griffin and Jackson. 

Machida and Faber should be on that list.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

diemos said:


> I don't understand how can you have #1,2,3 pound for pound fighters if they are all in different weight classes. This is nonsense.
> 
> We should look at fighters in their own weight class. But if we want to take pound for pound in ALL WEIGHT classes, then how come its still not obvious that FEDOR is #1. The guy never lost! and he beat two top 5 heavyweights in the last year. This guy almost have nobody to fight with since he beat everybody. The argument of him not fighting top competition is not valid. He just fought AA. Furthermore he beat all top heavyweight in their prime excluding Barnett of course.
> 
> ...



Alright Fedor is great but IMO Andrei Arlovski is not on the same level skill and talent wise as a BJ Penn, not even close.

BJ is ont he list because his record may not appear imressive at first glance but lets not forget that includes a controversial split decision to a heavier opponent who you rank at #2, and a loss to a LHW by decision, and not any LHW but the #2 LHW in the world.
Its nothing like Shogun losing to Forrest because they are the same size Shogun didnt move up in weight to fight Forrest, and he has been inactive for a long time only losing to Forrest and a lackluster win over 173 year old Mark Coleman since Prides demise.


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## diemos (Nov 7, 2007)

My point is exactly that. How can you rank fighters in different weight classes? I really don't know. There's just too many good fighters, I mean then # 1, 2 , 3 would somehow have to stand out from all the other fighters... and most don't with exception of Fedor. Didn't want to sound like I'm on Fedors nuts, but you can't deny he stands out from all the other fighters, with his stats alone.

edit: @ Toxic:

but that's all how you perceive it. BJ Penn wanted the to fight GSP because he though he could beat him, because most say he almost did beat him the first time, but that's where it ends. GSP got much better that Penn had no chance this time, it doesn't matter the weight, Penn wanted this fight and he tough he could beat him. 

Its nonsense to say Penn moved up in weight, so if he lost its okay because the other guy was heavier. NO SH*T, he knew that coming in the fight and he fought him before SAME weight. and look at FEDOR, look at the people he fought, they were MUCH taller than him and MUCH bigger than him and weighted much more, yet he figured out a way to beat him, so by saying GSP was heavier than Penn, IMO is not valid or fair. Nobody forced to Penn to fight Penn, there are other guys he can fight. OVERALL weight, I don't see any proof that Penn should be in Top 5. he is 4-4 in 4 years.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

I will never understand how Fedor still isn't #1. Yeah, he should have dropped off when he didn't fight anyone worth a damn for a while. But now he has faced two former UFC HW champs and demolished them.

Plus, considering his only loss was due to a technicality and not an actual loss, he is undefeated and demolishing top 10 guys.

Silva can't say that, GSP can't say that.

And Mike Brown shouldn't be on there simply because he beat Faber. They are confusing a top 10 FW ranking with the P4P list.


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## enufced904 (Jul 17, 2008)

diemos said:


> edit: also as for #4 BJ Penn, you gotta be out of your f*****king mind. He is 13-5 and in the last FOUR years he is 4-4 in his last 8 fights. How can he even be considered in Top 5? That score is horrible and he just got destroyed by GSP. The guy is good but not THAT good, I guess he has a huge army of fanboys.


You have to look at him in his division.. which is LW where he only has 1 loss. It certainly looks bad but considering he actually tries to go up to tougher competition is a big feat. Many fighters do the opposite and try to go down to smaller weight classes.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Buckingham said:


> A war for Fitch but not GSP.


Yeah but BJ is a monster and GSP manhandled and destroyed him, the fact Fitch survived 5 rounds is pretty impressive.


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## NameThief (Dec 28, 2008)

Buckingham said:


> Gsp got knocked tap 3 fights ago.



Agreed, and by a relatively mediocre WW.

Sure he dominated him in the return but he got out-struck standing and Matt Serra's TKO almost single-handedy turned GSP into the Dan Severn type of fighter that he is today, with as cautiously minimal standup as possible.


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## diemos (Nov 7, 2007)

I think we all have to agree its almost impossible to rank fighters overall, because there will always be fans that disagree, we have to look at weight classes, and Penn is top 3 in his Weight class, but he should not be considered in Top 5 pound for pound BEST in the WORLD, there are other fighters that proved more then penn did in their weight classes.


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## Buckingham (Apr 8, 2007)

diemos said:


> My point is exactly that. How can you rank fighters in different weight classes? I really don't know. There's just too many good fighters, I mean then # 1, 2 , 3 would somehow have to stand out from all the other fighters... and most don't with exception of Fedor. Didn't want to sound like I'm on Fedors nuts, but you can't deny he stands out from all the other fighters, with his stats alone.


Its kinda weird, but I think how fast the fights were actually hurt him in the p4p. I think many people think what would have happen if Andre didn't go for the flying knee.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Yeah but BJ is a monster and GSP manhandled and destroyed him, the fact Fitch survived 5 rounds is pretty impressive.


I would say that has more to do with the style matchup than the quality of the fighter.

Fitch is a wrestler, and a pretty damn good one at that. He was able to nullify some of GSP's wrestling and GnP.

Penn, on the other hand, is definitely not predominantly a wrestler and didn't have that ability.

Therefore, you end up with fitch surviving, and penn quitting after the 4th.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

gsp actually got through penn's guard alot easier than he did fitch's....


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## diemos (Nov 7, 2007)

@ Buckingham

true, but we don't know what Fedor was thinking, we only saw what we saw, there could have been millions of scenarios going through head, maybe he wanted to lure him in, maybe he wanted to pretend he is hurt, maybe he was waiting for his mistake, maybe he was waiting for flying knee. all we know is the result, people can say lucky shot and people can say whatever they want, basically its WHAT IF. There's a saying... what if granma had balls..then it would be grandpa. 

Fedor won. period. which proved again why he is #1.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

diemos said:


> My point is exactly that. How can you rank fighters in different weight classes? I really don't know. There's just too many good fighters, I mean then # 1, 2 , 3 would somehow have to stand out from all the other fighters... and most don't with exception of Fedor. Didn't want to sound like I'm on Fedors nuts, but you can't deny he stands out from all the other fighters, with his stats alone.
> 
> edit: @ Toxic:
> 
> ...


I agree Fedor should be above Penn cause he is facing bigger guys, but lets be honest here, the size diference between Penn and GSP is about the same as Fedor and Tim Sylvia and quite franly if your considering Tim Sylvia talent and skill wise even remotley close to GSP you have lost your F***in mind, Ive said it before Anderson Silva has never been LHW champ, GSP has never been MW champ, BJ has been WW champ and is the LW champ still, does a loss to GSP hurt him yeah but not nearly what losing to somebody like Kenny Florian would.


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## diemos (Nov 7, 2007)

agreed, but if you are saying "BJ has been WW champ and is the LW champ still" then hey! the weight should not even be in the argument. since he was champ here and there. How come nobody says maybe when he was a champ before, he was better, or luckier, or fighters werent that good. As I said before he is 4-4 i can understyand maybe 1-1 or 2-2 but 4-4, thats a lot, he lost 4 times, thats FOUR times people/fans had to make excuses for him, including this one with GSP. 

Lets just wait until he fight Kenflo.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

but all 4 fights were against much bigger opponents no body his own weight has touched him in a long ass time.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

No Frank Mir?


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## Superman55 (May 3, 2007)

1. Fedor
2. GSP
3. A. Silva

I still give the number one spot to Fedor, just because of his insane streak and the caliber of competition he has fought. GSP might have gotten it if he had not lost to Serra earlier. However, if GSP destroys Alves, it is GSP #1 and Fedor #2.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Anderson Silva #1, again? I really like Anderson, but he has no business being #1, having only beaten three top 10 fighters in his weight-class. The guys he beat aren't scrubs, but they haven't exactly been anywhere near as tough as the guys GSP has had to face. There's no denying his skillset, *but when you're facing guys that aren't technically as skilled as you, then your wins don't mean as much IMO*.
> 
> 1. GSP
> 2. Fedor
> 3. Anderson Silva


Because he is that much better than the opponents he is fighting doesn't mean his wins shouldn't hold as much weight. That doesn't really make sense. So you would be more impressed if he had fights that lasted longer and were closer? He made top 5 MW look like amateurs IMO and finished them in under 2 rounds without a scratch. On top of that beating them at their strengths.

That said I think Fedor should be #1 followed by Anderson and GSP.


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## BloodJunkie (Jun 18, 2007)

*** Moved to General MMA Discussion ***


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Im not a big Anderson Silva fan by any means but how can you even begin to question the caliber of his opponents, even the harshest of critics is gonna have a hard time questioning Dan Henderson's caliber as an opponent for anyone.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

I like the rankings...but why do we have to rely on sherdog...let's make our own damnit!


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Their top 3 is messed up. It needs to be:

1. Fedor
2. GSP
3. Anderson

Even then, it could be:

1. GSP
2. Fedor
3. Anderson

Anderson Silva at #1 after GSP's win over B.J and Fedor's win over Arlovski is ridiculous. He needs to fight more top 10 guys to be up there, seriously. Great fighter, but #1 in the world is.. a stretch, especially considering his last two fights were against low tier LHW and a lucklaster performance(lucklaster for someone who is considered #1 by some) against Cote.


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## diemos (Nov 7, 2007)

agreed about anderson, but Fedor should be #1 without a doubt. GSP is close to it. Lets not forget Evans/Machida


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## RyanRJL (Jan 31, 2009)

1) Fedor
2) GSP
3) Anderson Silva
4) Quinton Jackson
5) Rashad Evans
6) Lyoto Matchida
7) Miguel Torres
8) Thiago Alves
9) BJ Penn
10) Frank Mir

I dont see what the big deal with Anderson Silva is tbh, all he has done is beat Franklin and Hendo.

Also i dont see how people could not put Fedor top, he hasnt really lost a fight yet what else can you do to prove yourself. Fair enough It would be nice to see him fight a few more top ranked fighters but I think he has beat enough of them as it is to claim #1 spot.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Buckingham said:


> Gsp got knocked tap 3 fights ago.


What's your point? Anderson Silva has more losses than GSP, and to average fighters at that. How can he be considered the best pound for pound fighter in the world when he has more losses than Fedor and GSP combined? 



NameThief said:


> Honestly, I don't know a single guy who St. Pierre has beaten of late that I could say for sure could beat Hendo, Franklin or Marquardt.
> 
> But, I'll say this, I've honestly been a lot more impressed by Rashad's victories, this past year, than any of the 3 up there.
> 
> With all due respect.


You misunderstand. I'm saying Marquardt, Franklin, and Henderson are Anderson's three big wins. The other guys he has beaten haven't even been in his league. GSP has faced amazing grapplers, amazing wrestlers, great strikers, and great all around mixed martial artists. Anderson's been facing guys he outclasses by a large margin, and a lot of that has to do with the talent level of his opponents, not just his own ability.



yorT said:


> Because he is that much better than the opponents he is fighting doesn't mean his wins shouldn't hold as much weight. That doesn't really make sense. So you would be more impressed if he had fights that lasted longer and were closer? He made top 5 MW look like amateurs IMO and finished them in under 2 rounds without a scratch. On top of that beating them at their strengths.


Once again, my reasoning has to do with the fact he's only beaten three top 10 MWs, whereas GSP has wins over BJ (2x), Hughes (2x), Koscheck, Fitch, Parisyan, Sherk, Miller and Trigg. All of those guys were considered top 10 in their division when GSP beat them (with the possible exception of Miller or Sherk). 

Anderson hasn't fought enough guys with skillsets to challenge him, and he has shown weakness in the past against great grapplers. If Anderson walks through more guys that pose actual threats to him in certain areas, he'll climb-up my list. Until then, he rests at #3 and that's not an insult, it's just Fedor and GSP are more accomplished and tested than he is.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

Honestly any p4p list I see that doesnt have Fedor at number 1 I dont even take seriously. Like the guy just finished another good fighter in the first round. WTF does he have to do to prove he is the number 1. I guess never losing fights isnt enough :confused02:


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

steveo412 said:


> Honestly any p4p list I see that doesnt have Fedor at number 1 I dont even take seriously. Like the guy just finished another good fighter in the first round. WTF does he have to do to prove he is the number 1. I guess never losing fights isnt enough :confused02:


Agreed, it seems almost like a bias towards the UFC and its fighters.


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

1. GSP
2. Anderson
3. Fedor
4. Miguel Torres
5. BJ Penn
6. Rashad Evans
7. Lyoto Machida
8. Forrest Griffin 
9. Rampage
10. Alvez/Aoki/Fitch


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## Superman55 (May 3, 2007)

I think no matter what Fedor has to be number 1. He has put away so many top fighters, and is by far the most dominant fighter of all time (Sorry Igor Vov.). He is basically undefeated. Since that loss by cut he has won 25 straight. WHO DOES THAT? We think people are awesome when they get to 8 or 10 in a row. 25, is just an amazing number, and the fashion he has done it is unparalleled. He basically hasn't lost a round. 
To top it off, Fedor in the last year knocks out 2 HW UFC Champs in convincing fashion in the first round.


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

RyanRJL said:


> I dont see what the big deal with Anderson Silva is tbh, all he has done is beat Franklin and Hendo.


Yeah all he did was beat the number 2 and 3 MW in under two rounds, what a scrub...



Fedor>all said:


> Once again, my reasoning has to do with the fact he's only beaten three top 10 MWs, whereas GSP has wins over BJ (2x), Hughes (2x), Koscheck, Fitch, Parisyan, Sherk, Miller and Trigg. All of those guys were considered top 10 in their division when GSP beat them (with the possible exception of Miller or Sherk).
> 
> Anderson hasn't fought enough guys with skillsets to challenge him, and he has shown weakness in the past against great grapplers. If Anderson walks through more guys that pose actual threats to him in certain areas, he'll climb-up my list. Until then, he rests at #3 and that's not an insult, it's just Fedor and GSP are more accomplished and tested than he is.


Anderson has fought every skill set and ran through them using every skill set. He had trouble with grapplers maybe 5 years ago but not anymore. Anderson comes out of his fights without a scratch on his face. That's a reflection of his skill set. I'll just sit around and wait till we can find someone to challenge Silva...


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Fedor>all said:


> Anderson Silva #1, again? I really like Anderson, but he has no business being #1, having only beaten three top 10 fighters in his weight-class. The guys he beat aren't scrubs, but they haven't exactly been anywhere near as tough as the guys GSP has had to face. There's no denying his skillset, but when you're facing guys that aren't technically as skilled as you, then your wins don't mean as much IMO.
> 
> 1. GSP
> 2. Fedor
> 3. Anderson Silva


I agree, but does this mean that Fedor>All (except GSP)? Haha...just kidding.

I think Forrest should be taken off and BJ be moved down further for being dominated just one class above his natural weight. Mike Brown hasn't proven much either.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Needs Shinya Aoki.


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## MooJuice (Dec 12, 2008)

This is why fedor should be number 1:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedor_Emelianenko
-Scroll down, and look at that list. 29 wins, only 4 going to decision. Arona, sobral, herring, nog, cro cop, goodridge, fujita, coleman, randleman, hunt, lindland, silvia, arlovski all fell to fedor. His only loss was so bullshit words cannot describe it. it was under stupid rules and was absolute bullshit - if you've seen the actual fight you'll know what i mean. In the rematch, he nearly killed the poor guy. So with that resume, 26 straight wins, and in essence having never been beaten in 9 years, how on earth anybody could rank fedor anything but #1 is beyond me.

I also believe Torres should be in the top 5. His info is here; check it out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Torres_(fighter)

35 wins, 1 loss. 1 loss. In 9 years. (And it was avenged) The guy was 19 when his fights were first recorded, and he's been a freight train ever since. Anyone who's watched his fights will know what i mean; the guy's jab is arguably the best in the sport, and his jitz and wrestling is amazing. It's guys like this that make me wish UFC went below lightweight.


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## Zemelya (Sep 23, 2007)

agree about Torres and Fedor... dominating over such a long period of time is just sick

On other hand I don't get the P4P shit anyways...


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

People are still confused as to what a p4p list is or what it's used for..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_for_pound



> *Origin of the term*
> 
> It is often said to have been created to describe world Welterweight and Middleweight champion Sugar Ray Robinson.[1] Robinson is one of the most accomplished fighters of all time, but his supporters realized that, while he could beat anyone in his own class, as a Middleweight he would not be able to beat a top Heavyweight. Hence, Robinson was called the pound-for-pound best without being expected to beat much larger fighters, under the belief that he as a Middleweight was still a better quality fighter than any fighter fighting at heavier or lighter weights than him.
> 
> ...


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## NameThief (Dec 28, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> What's your point? Anderson Silva has more losses than GSP, and to average fighters at that. How can he be considered the best pound for pound fighter in the world when he has more losses than Fedor and GSP combined?


By this rule, Rashad and Machida should outrank Silva and GSP.



> You misunderstand. I'm saying Marquardt, Franklin, and Henderson are Anderson's three big wins. The other guys he has beaten haven't even been in his league. GSP has faced *amazing* grapplers, *amazing* wrestlers, great strikers, and great all around mixed martial artists. Anderson's been facing guys he outclasses by a large margin, and a lot of that has to do with the talent level of his opponents, not just his own ability.


Your use of "amazing" is highly subjective here, a matter of your opinion not of some division cutting objective standard. 

Just because all else lose the one hundred meter dash to Usain Bolt by 5 meters doesn't mean Usain's competition is weak...it means he's pretty fast, world record fast. 



> Anderson hasn't fought enough guys with skillsets to challenge him, and he has shown weakness in the past against great grapplers. If Anderson walks through more guys that pose actual threats to him in certain areas, he'll climb-up my list. Until then, he rests at #3 and that's not an insult, it's just Fedor and GSP are more accomplished and tested than he is.


At the risk of overextending my analogy, in your view, Usain Bolt cannot be as fast as Carl Lewis or Donovan Bailey because he's too far ahead of his competition whereas they had evenly talented competition during their day?


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

yorT said:


> Yeah all he did was beat the number 2 and 3 MW in under two rounds, what a scrub...


I'm not calling him a scrub, I'm saying that he hasn't accomplished nearly as much as GSP or Fedor in his weight-class. There are still a lot of guys in the top 10 he hasn't faced and beaten. You're not going to win me over as "best pound for pound" by beating Chris Leben, Patrick Cote, Jorge Rivera, Tony Fryklund, and Travis Lutter. None of those guys are in the top 10, the only big wins Anderson has are the three I previously mentioned.



yorT said:


> Anderson has fought every skill set and ran through them using every skill set.


Not really. He hasn't faced an amazing ground fighter. He's fought mostly brawlers in the UFC, and guys that aren't particularly exceptional at anything. You're not going to beat Anderson Silva by taking him down and lying in his guard for 5 rounds like Dan Henderson tried.



yorT said:


> He had trouble with grapplers maybe 5 years ago but not anymore.


So Travis Lutter didn't mount him with relative ease? :confused02:



yorT said:


> Anderson comes out of his fights without a scratch on his face. That's a reflection of his skill set. I'll just sit around and wait till we can find someone to challenge Silva...


Walking out without a scratch is completely irrelevant.. he still gets hit, he has been put in precarious positions, and most importantly, he has been beaten by average fighters in the past. :dunno:




ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> I agree, but does this mean that Fedor>All (except GSP)? Haha...just kidding


:laugh: you bastad..



NameThief said:


> By this rule, Rashad and Machida should outrank Silva and GSP.


Not really, because they haven't faced anywhere near as much top competition as either Penn or St. Pierre.



NameThief said:


> Your use of "amazing" is highly subjective here, a matter of your opinion not of some division cutting objective standard.


So BJ Penn isn't an amazing grappler? Matt Hughes and Josh Koscheck aren't amazing wrestlers? The only style GSP hasn't fought yet is a great striker, and he will in his next fight.




NameThief said:


> Just because all else lose the one hundred meter dash to Usain Bolt by 5 meters doesn't mean Usain's competition is weak...it means he's pretty fast, world record fast.


Aside from three fighters, Anderson Silva hasn't done enough in his division to warrant pound for pound status. I'd rather have a record of 6-0 earned from fights against top competition than 46-0 against a bunch of guys with only a few fighters who have a place among the top 10.




NameThief said:


> At the risk of overextending my analogy, in your view, Usain Bolt cannot be as fast as Carl Lewis or Donovan Bailey because he's too far ahead of his competition whereas they had evenly talented competition during their day?


That's a bad example because time determines the best in a sprint, there are far more factors in MMA. When setting a record it's about beating the clock, not the opponent's you are racing on the track. :dunno:


----------



## Sicilian_Esq (Sep 7, 2008)

D.P. said:


> People are still confused as to what a p4p list is or what it's used for..
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_for_pound


Thanks for this. It clears up a lot for me. :thumb01:

I would still have Anderson Silva as #1.


----------



## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> I'm not calling him a scrub, I'm saying that he hasn't accomplished nearly as much as GSP or Fedor in his weight-class. There are still a lot of guys in the top 10 he hasn't faced and beaten. You're not going to win me over as "best pound for pound" by beating Chris Leben, Patrick Cote, Jorge Rivera, Tony Fryklund, and Travis Lutter. None of those guys are in the top 10, the only big wins Anderson has are the three I previously mentioned.


It's not that he won it is the way he won. So he ran through 3 top 5 MW and he hasn't proved much? Personally if you're running through the #2 and 3 MW the way he did then what other MW's are there? Personally if Silva had the same skill set he had now but was a WW IMO he would be able to beat all the guys that GSP has.





Fedor>all said:


> Not really. He hasn't faced an amazing ground fighter. He's fought mostly brawlers in the UFC, and guys that aren't particularly exceptional at anything. You're not going to beat Anderson Silva by taking him down and lying in his guard for 5 rounds like Dan Henderson tried.


Nate and Lutter not good on the ground? I know you are going to say Lutter is a POS with no gas tank but Silva also just came off double knee surgery and was able to sub him off his back. Nate had him on his back and amounted to no offense, Silva was doing more on the bottom.



Fedor>all said:


> So Travis Lutter didn't mount him with relative ease? :confused02:


So Lutter didn't get subbed?





Fedor>all said:


> Walking out without a scratch is completely irrelevant.. he still gets hit, he has been put in precarious positions, and most importantly, he has been beaten by average fighters in the past. :dunno:


5 years ago, things change. It's about what he is doing now. He's been put in precarious positions? He gets put in one bad position in a fight but what he did the rest of the fight doesn't matter?


Just trying to see why you don't think he deserves to be anywhere near the top.


----------



## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

yorT said:


> It's not that he won it is the way he won. So he ran through 3 top 5 MW and he hasn't proved much? Personally if you're running through the #2 and 3 MW the way he did then what other MW's are there?


He was impressive in his fights against Franklin, Marquardt, and Henderson, but you're misleading yourself if you think that there aren't any other significant challenges in the top 10 beyond those guys. As I previously stated, we haven't seen Silva face an elite grappler or an elite striker (although the MW division is devoid of such fighters except maybe Mousasi and Manhoef). 

I'm saying that you have to do more than he's done to be considered top P4P, especially when GSP is facing guys that are much more well-rounded or dangerous in certain disciplines than guys like Franklin or Marquardt.




yorT said:


> Personally if Silva had the same skill set he had now but was a WW IMO he would be able to beat all the guys that GSP has.


I'm not going to disagree, nor agree, because that's strictly speculation. :dunno:



yorT said:


> Nate and Lutter not good on the ground? I know you are going to say Lutter is a POS with no gas tank but Silva also just came off double knee surgery and was able to sub him off his back. Nate had him on his back and amounted to no offense, Silva was doing more on the bottom.


I wouldn't consider either of those guys elite ground fighters. I'm talking about the likes of Palhares and Maia.

Anderson has mainly fought brawlers in the UFC, or guys who aren't exception at any particular discipline.




yorT said:


> So Lutter didn't get subbed?


After gassing, yeah. I think it's pretty obvious that he outgrappled Silva until he gassed.



yorT said:


> 5 years ago, things change. It's about what he is doing now. He's been put in precarious positions? He gets put in one bad position in a fight but what he did the rest of the fight doesn't matter?


That's not what I'm saying at all. What he has done matters, but it would matter more if he was doing it against more guys in the top 10 who offered him a threat stylistically. Look at the guys he's fought in the UFC, they're mostly brawlers.




yorT said:


> Just trying to see why you don't think he deserves to be anywhere near the top.


I explained why. It's not because what he hasn't done is impressive (it is), it just pales in comparison to what GSP and Fedor have done.


----------



## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> He was impressive in his fights against Franklin, Marquardt, and Henderson, but you're misleading yourself if you think that there aren't any other significant challenges in the top 10 beyond those guys. As I previously stated, we haven't seen Silva face an elite grappler or an elite striker (although the MW division is devoid of such fighters except maybe Mousasi and Manhoef).
> 
> I'm saying that you have to do more than he's done to be considered top P4P, especially when GSP is facing guys that are much more well-rounded or dangerous in certain disciplines than guys like Franklin or Marquardt.


Who is much more well rounded than guys like Nate, Hendo or Franklin? The only one I can think of is BJ Penn.




Fedor>all said:


> I'm not going to disagree, nor agree, because that's strictly speculation. :dunno:


Well that's what P4P means, so you think that Silva wouldn't be able to beat those guys if he were a WW? 





Fedor>all said:


> I wouldn't consider either of those guys elite ground fighters. I'm talking about the likes of Palhares and Maia.


Those are elite ground fighters with almost all their wins by submission. What fighter has GSP fought who has almost all there wins by submission? Or a fighter that has competed and won as many BJJ tournaments as Palhares and Maia?






Fedor>all said:


> After gassing, yeah. I think it's pretty obvious that he outgrappled Silva until he gassed.


Mounting Silva once is the only significant thing Lutter did in the fight, if that's out grappling then okay. What about the number of times Anderson was able to get out from bottom? It's BS to say the only reason Anderson won was because Lutter gassed. Oh and he did this after having double knee surgery 6 weeks before.





Fedor>all said:


> That's not what I'm saying at all. What he has done matters, but it would matter more if he was doing it against more guys in the top 10 who offered him a threat stylistically. Look at the guys he's fought in the UFC, they're mostly brawlers.


So the only ones I can think of that could offer him a threat is Melvin and Mousasi. And _if_ he beats them, then what?




Fedor>all said:


> I explained why. It's not because what he hasn't done is impressive (it is), i*t just pales in comparison* to what GSP and Fedor have done.


You have GSP higher than Fedor, I think Fedor is #1. How has GSP accomplished more than Fedor?


----------



## cezwan (Dec 7, 2007)

LCRaiders said:


> BJ Penn is the greatest in my eyes but i believe that Check Kongo will soon be up there! He will dominate the heavyweight divison in no time.


dude, please tell me your not being serious here..


----------



## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

yorT said:


> Who is much more well rounded than guys like Nate, Hendo or Franklin? The only one I can think of is BJ Penn.


BJ Penn is, that's the example I used for a more well-rounded fighter. He also poses more of a threat in any specific disciple than anyone Silva's faced thus far.



yorT said:


> Well that's what P4P means, so you think that Silva wouldn't be able to beat those guys if he were a WW?


Sure, and I think GSP would beat all the guys Anderson has if he was a MW as well. 




yorT said:


> Those are elite ground fighters with almost all their wins by submission. What fighter has GSP fought who has almost all there wins by submission? Or a fighter that has competed and won as many BJJ tournaments as Palhares and Maia?


BJ Penn's the most accomplished and well-adapted BJJ fighter that GSP has ever fought. His BJJ is proven inside and outside of the octagon, so there's no real reason to question his pedigree. In short, BJ is more of a threat on the ground than anyone Anderson Silva has fought. :dunno:




yorT said:


> Mounting Silva once is the only significant thing Lutter did in the fight, if that's out grappling then okay. What about the number of times Anderson was able to get out from bottom? It's BS to say the only reason Anderson won was because Lutter gassed. Oh and he did this after having double knee surgery 6 weeks before.


The fact is, in a recent fight against a slightly above average MMA grappler, Anderson Silva was put in a very precarious situation rather easily. His weakness has been shown on the ground, and while I pat him on the back for managing to submit Lutter, he did show that he still has holes there. Also, if you can make the excuse that Lutter gassing (which made him sloppy) had nothing to do with Anderson managing to escape and win the fight, then I'm going to say the knee surgery had nothing to do with Lutter taking him down virtually at will. :dunno:




yorT said:


> So the only ones I can think of that could offer him a threat is Melvin and Mousasi. And _if_ he beats them, then what?


Then he's proven he can beat an elite striker. You couldn't figure that point out yourself? :confused02:



yorT said:


> You have GSP higher than Fedor, I think Fedor is #1. How has GSP accomplished more than Fedor?


Because Fedor hasn't beaten as many top 10 fighters as GSP. What you accomplish in your weight-class against the top competitors determines how you would fair pound for pound. Both GSP and Fedor have faced a wider array of challenges in their careers than Anderson has, and that's what puts them ahead IMO.

Really, I'm not sure how I could make my stance more clear to you. :laugh:


----------



## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

I still have Fedor #1 in my list, then I have a hard time deciding between Silva and GSP, slightly leaning towards the former though. 

Fedor is a *tiny* HW who's beat and is still beating top competition, while Silva and GSP are *huge* MW and WWs. (A. Silva walks at 220-230, source available upon request lol)

Also, Fedor's fighting in a division where the fighters have KO power and can KTFO you with one punch. I'm still waiting for this to happen, hell I'm still waiting for him to lose a fight... No doubt in my mind that he's #1 ATM. 

I do agree that Silva is a bit overrated but that's mostly because of Dana White's BS. His striking is outstanding but he's not as well rounded as Fedor and GSP, for instance I think his wrestling's pretty weak. I'd love to see him fight Rashad Evans or Page to see what he's made out of. Hope we'll get to see him in a couple of big fights before he retires. 

P4P ranking can change over a fight. If GSP beats Alves, I think I'll have him #2 and if he beats Silva which is possible, I'll definitely have him #1. But it all depends on how Fedor and Silva are doing on their sides as well. :dunno:


----------



## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> BJ Penn is, that's the example I used for a more well-rounded fighter. He also poses more of a threat in any specific disciple than anyone Silva's faced thus far.


IMO he isn't a better all around striker than Franklin. BJ does has really good boxing but all around I would say Rich is better. Other than that GSP hasn't fought an elite striker.




Fedor>all said:


> BJ Penn's the most accomplished and well-adapted BJJ fighter that GSP has ever fought. His BJJ is proven inside and outside of the octagon, so there's no real reason to question his pedigree. In short, BJ is more of a threat on the ground than anyone Anderson Silva has fought. :dunno:


I'm not questioning his BJJ, it's some of the best if not the best at WW. I'm just saying he doesn't just submissions as the main part of his game like Pharles, Maia and Thales.






Fedor>all said:


> The fact is, in a recent fight against a slightly above average MMA grappler, Anderson Silva was put in a very precarious situation rather easily. His weakness has been shown on the ground, and while I pat him on the back for managing to submit Lutter, he did show that he still has holes there. Also, if you can make the excuse that Lutter gassing (which made him sloppy) had nothing to do with Anderson managing to escape and win the fight, then I'm going to say the knee surgery had nothing to do with Lutter taking him down virtually at will. :dunno:


Lutter wasn't able to accomplish anything from that position and that is the only thing he did in the fight. Also people weren't saying Lutter was an above average MMA grappler before the Silva fight but now he is...:dunno:
Cardio is something you can prevent and you train to refine your game to not be sloppy. Knee surgery you can't really prevent, not the same thing.






Fedor>all said:


> Then he's proven he can beat an elite striker. You couldn't figure that point out yourself? :confused02:


Just saying the only other elite striker to challenge him would be Melvin and he isn't a top 10 MW so I guess he wouldn't gain ground in your P4P rankings.





Fedor>all said:


> Because Fedor hasn't beaten as many top 10 fighters as GSP. What you accomplish in your weight-class against the top competitors determines how you would fair pound for pound. Both GSP and Fedor have faced a wider array of challenges in their careers than Anderson has, and that's what puts them ahead IMO.
> 
> Really, I'm not sure how I could make my stance more clear to you. :laugh:


All the top 10 talent for WW is in the UFC and I think it is due to not much talents in other orgs. I mean Serra is still in people's top 10 ranking. I mean going by your logic Matt Hughes and Thaigo Alves should be ranked higher than Silva because they have beaten more top 10 WW.:dunno:

I just wondering who Kos or Fitch beat for them to be considered a top 5 WW?


----------



## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

MooJuice said:


> This is why fedor should be number 1:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedor_Emelianenko
> -Scroll down, and look at that list. 29 wins, only 4 going to decision. Arona, sobral, herring, nog, cro cop, goodridge, fujita, coleman, randleman, hunt, lindland, silvia, arlovski all fell to fedor. His only loss was so bullshit words cannot describe it. it was under stupid rules and was absolute bullshit - if you've seen the actual fight you'll know what i mean. In the rematch, he nearly killed the poor guy. So with that resume, 26 straight wins, and in essence having never been beaten in 9 years, how on earth anybody could rank fedor anything but #1 is beyond me.
> 
> ...


Torres' wrestling really isn't amazing. He's so good that he doesn't even need wrestling. Dude never tries to take his opponents down, they take him down.

His BJJ is amazing.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

yorT said:


> IMO he isn't a better all around striker than Franklin. BJ does has really good boxing but all around I would say Rich is better. Other than that GSP hasn't fought an elite striker.


GSP will be fighting Alves who is considered a top striker at 170, all-around BJ is more complete than Franklin.




yorT said:


> I'm not questioning his BJJ, it's some of the best if not the best at WW. I'm just saying he doesn't just submissions as the main part of his game like Pharles, Maia and Thales.


Yet it's still elite.




yorT said:


> Lutter wasn't able to accomplish anything from that position and that is the only thing he did in the fight. Also people weren't saying Lutter was an above average MMA grappler before the Silva fight but now he is...:dunno:


I hate it when I hear "people were/weren't saying", because that's a generalization. Anderson Silva has been finished by lesser grapplers than Travis Lutter. Lutter is dangerous on the ground, and if you're going to assume everyone thought he wasn't above average on the ground, then you're neglecting the informed individuals who know he is.




yorT said:


> Cardio is something you can prevent and you train to refine your game to not be sloppy. Knee surgery you can't really prevent, not the same thing.


Both were physical issues, and both fighters struggled with them in the fight. Don't use Anderson's bad knees for an excuse if Lutter's dehydrated state can't be.




yorT said:


> Just saying the only other elite striker to challenge him would be Melvin and he isn't a top 10 MW so I guess he wouldn't gain ground in your P4P rankings.


Mousasi is a top 10.



yorT said:


> All the top 10 talent for WW is in the UFC and I think it is due to not much talents in other orgs. I mean Serra is still in people's top 10 ranking.


He's in people's top 10 because he beat #1, you don't just drop out of the top 10 rankings with one loss after recently defeating the best in the weight-class.



yorT said:


> I mean going by your logic Matt Hughes and Thaigo Alves should be ranked higher than Silva because they have beaten more top 10 WW.:dunno:


Matt Hughes wouldn't be higher ranked because he hasn't remained successful. And I wouldn't put Alves over Anderson because he hasn't got more top 10 wins. If he beats GSP, then it's debatable.



yorT said:


> I just wondering who Kos or Fitch beat for them to be considered a top 5 WW?


Diego Sanchez. He was in the top 5 when Koscheck beat him, #6 when Fitch beat him.


----------



## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> GSP will be fighting Alves who is considered a top striker at 170, *all-around BJ is more complete than Franklin.*


All around MMA fighter yeah, but all around striker I would say Franklin.




Fedor>all said:


> Yet it's still elite.


Yes it is elite but doesn't use it as much as the others I stated.






Fedor>all said:


> I hate it when I hear "people were/weren't saying", because that's a generalization. Anderson Silva has been finished by lesser grapplers than Travis Lutter. Lutter is dangerous on the ground, and if you're going to assume everyone thought he wasn't above average on the ground, then you're neglecting the informed individuals who know he is.


I was trying to say he was more than above average, but all is well. And yes he got finished by lesser grapplers but that was in 2003, he didn't get his Black Belt until 2006. I know you don't think he is the same grappler he was 6 years ago??






Fedor>all said:


> Both were physical issues, and both fighters struggled with them in the fight. Don't use Anderson's bad knees for an excuse if Lutter's dehydrated state can't be.


Well Lutter had plenty of time to rehydrate himself before the fight and Silva also had to make weight. Anderson could make his knees 100% before the fight.





Fedor>all said:


> He's in people's top 10 because he beat #1, you don't just drop out of the top 10 rankings with one loss after recently defeating the best in the weight-class.


Dude has fought twice in two years and most sites have him at number 7. Just shows that there isn't that much talent in other orgs if Serra is still that high. 





Fedor>all said:


> Matt Hughes wouldn't be higher ranked because he hasn't remained successful. And I wouldn't put Alves over Anderson because he hasn't got more top 10 wins. If he beats GSP, then it's debatable.


Alright so right before GSP vs Hughes, the third fight, you would have had Hughes P4P over Anderson right? And if Alves beats GSP is debatable. Well hell all Alves has to do is beat Serra then he would have more top 10 wins then Silva and that should put him over Anderson, going by your logic.





Fedor>all said:


> Diego Sanchez. He was in the top 5 when Koscheck beat him, #6 when Fitch beat him.


Kos and Fitch beat Diego who is now dropping to LW and they are consider number #2 and #4 WW in the world? I just think there isn't that much WW talent in the world and the WW that are out there are in the UFC. Just the way I see, IMO Maia is better than almost all of the WW (excluding GSP of course) and he isn't even ranked in the MW.

Well this is just going in circles, just have to sit around and wait for some top talent to come to the UFC's MW division so he can gets some real wins...


----------



## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

yorT said:


> All around MMA fighter yeah, but all around striker I would say Franklin.


Franklin still isn't an elite striker though.



yorT said:


> Yes it is elite but doesn't use it as much as the others I stated.


It doesn't matter how often he uses it, he's still an elite grappler that GSP smoked on the ground.




yorT said:


> I was trying to say he was more than above average, but all is well. And yes he got finished by lesser grapplers but that was in 2003, he didn't get his Black Belt until 2006. I know you don't think he is the same grappler he was 6 years ago??


The point is, Anderson was mounted by Travis Lutter in 2007. While he has shown improvement since his PRIDE days, he still has shown vulnerability on the ground to a relatively good grappler. You're making it sound like I'm saying Anderson is a bad grappler, which is certainly not the case. I'm simply stating that Anderson's biggest challenges will come on the ground, where he isn't the best in the world.



yorT said:


> Well Lutter had plenty of time to rehydrate himself before the fight and Silva also had to make weight. Anderson could make his knees 100% before the fight.


Anderson could have post-poned the fight if his knees were that bad. Really, excuses are excuses and should not be allowed one way and excluded the other.




yorT said:


> Dude has fought twice in two years and most sites have him at number 7. Just shows that there isn't that much talent in other orgs if Serra is still that high.


Like I said, you can't just remove him from the top 10 rankings based-on one loss. If he loses to Hughes, I don't think he'll be in many people's top 10 lists.




yorT said:


> Alright so right before GSP vs Hughes, the third fight, you would have had Hughes P4P over Anderson right?


Probably not, seeing as Hughes was coming off a loss to GSP and a win over Chris Lytle doesn't do much for you. Consistency is key, and Matt Hughes is locked out.



yorT said:


> And if Alves beats GSP is debatable. Well hell all Alves has to do is beat Serra then he would have more top 10 wins then Silva and that should put him over Anderson, going by your logic.


A win over Serra is worth more than a win over Cote, Leben, Lutter, and Irvin with regard to "pound for pound" status. Seeing as he's actually held the belt and all.



yorT said:


> Kos and Fitch beat Diego who is now dropping to LW and they are consider number #2 and #4 WW in the world? I just think there isn't that much WW talent in the world and the WW that are out there are in the UFC. Just the way I see, IMO Maia is better than almost all of the WW (excluding GSP of course) and he isn't even ranked in the MW.


The MW division isn't anywhere near as stacked as the WW division, especially in the UFC.




yorT said:


> Well this is just going in circles, just have to sit around and wait for some top talent to come to the UFC's MW division so he can gets some real wins...


Yep, you don't get to be the top pound for pound fighter beating guys who aren't top 10, as far as I'm concerned. Seriously, Anderson's #3, his accomplishments while impressive, pale in comparison to that of Fedor and GSP. I hate repeating myself, I just don't think I can make my stance clearer to you.


----------



## Buckingham (Apr 8, 2007)

Whats worst, being a bjj black belt and having that as your weakness, or having suspect chin?


----------



## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Franklin still isn't an elite striker though.


Well I would say BJ has elite boxing but not all around striking.





Fedor>all said:


> It doesn't matter how often he uses it, he's still an elite grappler that GSP smoked on the ground.


An elite grappler that didn't want to go to the ground. Maia and Palhares want to go to the ground cause that is the main part of there game. BJ hasn't submitted that many if any people off his back in MMA.






Fedor>all said:


> The point is, Anderson was mounted by Travis Lutter in 2007. While he has shown improvement since his PRIDE days, he still has shown vulnerability on the ground to a relatively good grappler. You're making it sound like I'm saying Anderson is a bad grappler, which is certainly not the case. I'm simply stating that Anderson's biggest challenges will come on the ground, where he isn't the best in the world.


1 time he should a vulnerability and Lutter was unable to do anything. Lutter went for one submission and that was a last minute arm bar. Other than that he didn't amount to anything, where as Silva went for the triangle a couple of times.





Fedor>all said:


> Anderson could have post-poned the fight if his knees were that bad. Really, excuses are excuses and should not be allowed one way and excluded the other.


He won so I guess he made the right call, plus fighters often go into fight not at 100%. Silva also said in an interview he wasn't 100% in the Nate fight, shoulder problem.






Fedor>all said:


> Like I said, you can't just remove him from the top 10 rankings based-on one loss. If he loses to Hughes, I don't think he'll be in many people's top 10 lists.


He hasn't been active for 10 months.






Fedor>all said:


> Probably not, seeing as Hughes was coming off a loss to GSP and a win over Chris Lytle doesn't do much for you. Consistency is key, and Matt Hughes is locked out.


Well consistency is the key Fedor should be number 1 but you don't have him there? Fedor has more top 10 wins than GSP.





Fedor>all said:


> A win over Serra is worth more than a win over Cote, Leben, Lutter, and Irvin with regard to "pound for pound" status. Seeing as he's actually held the belt and all.


Well using your scale Alves with a win over Serra puts him above Silva as P4P best. IMO just shows flaws in the rankings which is what your basing your P4P off of. May not be a good example but if the number 1 college basketball team loses to an unranked team, the unranked team doesn't take the number 1 spot and certainly doesn't take rank over the ranked team.





Fedor>all said:


> The MW division isn't anywhere near as stacked as the WW division, especially in the UFC.


World wide the MW division is more stacked, there is no elite striker or elite bjj guy in the top 10 WW.






Fedor>all said:


> Yep, you don't get to be the top pound for pound fighter beating guys who aren't top 10, as far as I'm concerned. Seriously, Anderson's #3, his accomplishments while impressive, pale in comparison to that of Fedor and GSP. I hate repeating myself, I just don't think I can make my stance clearer to you.


Pale in comparison...he utterly destroyed and finished people who are arguably hard to finish, and he did it spectacular fashion.

Using the P4P definition IMO Silva would be able to beat all of the guys GSP has if he were a WW and because of his style be able to finish them in devastating fashion.


----------



## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

yorT said:


> Well I would say BJ has elite boxing but not all around striking.


Thiago Alves is an elite striker, and GSP will face him next. If he wins, he'll prove that he can deal with any skillset.



yorT said:


> An elite grappler that didn't want to go to the ground. Maia and Palhares want to go to the ground cause that is the main part of there game. BJ hasn't submitted that many if any people off his back in MMA.


BJ is confident in his all around game, he's more well-rounded than Palhares and Maia, and that's why he doesn't lean specifically on his BJJ. That's not to say he can't finish people with it, he just chooses to employ a more diversified fighting style. And while BJ hasn't subbed many off his back, he has one of the best top games in the sport, having most of his submissions come from passing his opponents' guards, mounting them, then subbing them. Don't be fooled into thinking BJ doesn't use his BJJ that often to win fights, because he uses it not always to finish the fight, but to get to a position where he can.




yorT said:


> 1 time he should a vulnerability and Lutter was unable to do anything. Lutter went for one submission and that was a last minute arm bar. Other than that he didn't amount to anything, where as Silva went for the triangle a couple of times.


Whether it was one time or not, he showed vulnerability on the ground against a grappler. You can't ignore the significance of that, even if Lutter didn't manage to pull anything off. What if it was Maia or Leites, or Palhares that had Anderson mounted? That's not something to be shrugged off man.

You don't seem to understand that I'm not crapping on Anderson's ground skills, I'm simply pointing out a weakness he has shown not just in the UFC, but throughout his career.




yorT said:


> He won so I guess he made the right call, plus fighters often go into fight not at 100%. Silva also said in an interview he wasn't 100% in the Nate fight, shoulder problem.


Like you said, everyone goes into fights with nagging injuries, so why should Anderson be allowed to use his physical condition off his back as an excuse for being mounted by Lutter?




yorT said:


> He hasn't been active for 10 months.


And? Dan Henderson was ranked the #2 MW and prior to fighting Anderson he hadn't fought in that weight-class in 2 years. Even after he lost to Silva, he didn't drop significantly in the rankings. :dunno: 




yorT said:


> Well consistency is the key Fedor should be number 1 but you don't have him there? Fedor has more top 10 wins than GSP.


I won't lie that it's a toss-up to me between Fedor and GSP. Now that Fedor's fighting more top competition consistently, it's harder for me to put GSP ahead of him. Prior to his first fight with Serra, GSP hasn't fought a non-top ten fighter since Dave Strasser in 2005, whereas Fedor fought guys like Zulu, Choi, and Lindland who don't really do anything to cement his ranking.




yorT said:


> Well using your scale Alves with a win over Serra puts him above Silva as P4P best. IMO just shows flaws in the rankings which is what your basing your P4P off of. May not be a good example but if the number 1 college basketball team loses to an unranked team, the unranked team doesn't take the number 1 spot and certainly doesn't take rank over the ranked team.


If you beat the best, you are the best. Why do you think Sokoudjou shot up the rankings? He beat two top 5 fighters, and even though he was previously unranked, he was shot into the top 10. Maybe if Silva starts fighting more top 10 competition, then he'll gain more ground as the best pound for pound fighter. As previously stated, beating Cote, Irvin, Leben, and Lutter really does not mean all that much.




yorT said:


> World wide the MW division is more stacked, there is no elite striker or elite bjj guy in the top 10 WW.


BJ Penn is an elite BJJ guy. And Jake Shields is a pretty amazing grappler as well. How many BJJ black-belts has Anderson Silva beaten in the UFC? Travis Lutter, that's it, and he's not on the level of a BJ Penn.



yorT said:


> Pale in comparison...he utterly destroyed and finished people who are arguably hard to finish, and he did it spectacular fashion.


He beat guys that didn't have a stylistic edge over him anywhere, or offered a threat in any position. Once again, put him in there with guys who are significantly better than him on the ground and we'll see how he handles himself.




yorT said:


> Using the P4P definition IMO Silva would be able to beat all of the guys GSP has if he were a WW and because of his style be able to finish them in devastating fashion.


That's your opinion, and I respect it. I also think GSP would beat every guy in the MW division that Silva has beaten with relative ease. :dunno:


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## yorT (Apr 22, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> Thiago Alves is an elite striker, and GSP will face him next. If he wins, he'll prove that he can deal with any skillset.


I don't know if I would call him Elite but he is a great striker, he does have a tko loss to Jon Fitch.





Fedor>all said:


> BJ is confident in his all around game, he's more well-rounded than Palhares and Maia, and that's why he doesn't lean specifically on his BJJ. That's not to say he can't finish people with it, he just chooses to employ a more diversified fighting style. And while BJ hasn't subbed many off his back, he has one of the best top games in the sport, having most of his submissions come from passing his opponents' guards, mounting them, then subbing them. Don't be fooled into thinking BJ doesn't use his BJJ that often to win fights, because he uses it not always to finish the fight, but to get to a position where he can.


Yes, that's why I think GSP and Silva would be at more of a risk of getting subbed if they were fighting guys like Maia, Palhares or Thales than fighting BJ.





Fedor>all said:


> Whether it was one time or not, he showed vulnerability on the ground against a grappler. You can't ignore the significance of that, even if Lutter didn't manage to pull anything off. What if it was Maia or Leites, or Palhares that had Anderson mounted? That's not something to be shrugged off man.


GSP showed vulnerability in the stand up against a mediocre striker and got a loss from it. Silva showed vulnerability and still got the win and I would say won both the first and second rounds.




Fedor>all said:


> You don't seem to understand that I'm not crapping on Anderson's ground skills, I'm simply pointing out a weakness he has shown not just in the UFC, but throughout his career.


I understand this and I can see why you feel this way. He is about to fight Thales who is probably in top 10 BJJ practitioners in MMA. Hopefully we'll get to see where he stands.






Fedor>all said:


> Like you said, everyone goes into fights with nagging injuries, so why should Anderson be allowed to use his physical condition off his back as an excuse for being mounted by Lutter?


I'm not but Lutter should be using his gas tank as an excuse either, something you can prevent with training.






Fedor>all said:


> And? Dan Henderson was ranked the #2 MW and prior to fighting Anderson he hadn't fought in that weight-class in 2 years. Even after he lost to Silva, he didn't drop significantly in the rankings. :dunno:


But he was remaining active fighting in the LHW division and even getting a win over Wandy, a top 5 LHW. Serra hasn't fought anyone in a long time.







Fedor>all said:


> If you beat the best, you are the best. Why do you think Sokoudjou shot up the rankings? He beat two top 5 fighters, and even though he was previously unranked, he was shot into the top 10. Maybe if Silva starts fighting more top 10 competition, then he'll gain more ground as the best pound for pound fighter. As previously stated, beating Cote, Irvin, Leben, and Lutter really does not mean all that much.


Yeah Sokky proved himself not once but twice. Now look where he is. Serra, Kos, and Fitch have proved themselves once. A great fight beats top competition more than once. Just they way I see and the way other sports see it. I mean where is Junior Da Santos? Don't see him ranked in the top 10 HW.






Fedor>all said:


> BJ Penn is an elite BJJ guy. And Jake Shields is a pretty amazing grappler as well. How many BJJ black-belts has Anderson Silva beaten in the UFC? Travis Lutter, that's it, and he's not on the level of a BJ Penn.


BJ Penn is an elite BJJ guy, but he isn't ranked in the top 10 WW anymore. Anderson beat Lutter and Nate, both black-belts. Jake Shields is a great grappler but would called him an elite ground guy. Maia and Thales are elite ground guys and they aren't even ranked.





Fedor>all said:


> He beat guys that didn't have a stylistic edge over him anywhere, or offered a threat in any position. Once again, put him in there with guys who are significantly better than him on the ground and we'll see how he handles himself.


Put guys in there with GSP that are better than him on the feet and see how he does. Lutter and Nate were suppose to be better than Silva on the ground and they still lost.






Fedor>all said:


> That's your opinion, and I respect it. I also think GSP would beat every guy in the MW division that Silva has beaten with relative ease. :dunno:


And I respect you opinion a lot and I see where you are coming from. We are just looking at this from two separate angles.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

yorT said:


> I don't know if I would call him Elite but he is a great striker, he does have a tko loss to Jon Fitch.


Yeah, which started from an upkick lol, not from being outstruck on the feet.




yorT said:


> Yes, that's why I think GSP and Silva would be at more of a risk of getting subbed if they were fighting guys like Maia, Palhares or Thales than fighting BJ.


It's possible, but I just think GSP's ground game is more tested than Silva's at this point. Silva may surprise me by subbing Leites, I'm not saying it's impossible, I just think that on the ground Silva's only weakness has been shown, even if they're momentary lapses.



yorT said:


> GSP showed vulnerability in the stand up against a mediocre striker and got a loss from it. Silva showed vulnerability and still got the win and I would say won both the first and second rounds.


Silva showed vulnerability to submissions against Takase and some would even say Chonan was giving Silva problems on the feet. If we're not going to go into Silva's past, why are we delving into GSP's? Both guys are much better fighters since their last defeats.




yorT said:


> I understand this and I can see why you feel this way. He is about to fight Thales who is probably in top 10 BJJ practitioners in MMA. Hopefully we'll get to see where he stands.


Definitely, I'm actually really excited to see how Anderson fairs with a great grappler. I don't have anything against him, I just have a lot of questions in relation to his ability to deal with guys who are maestro's on the ground. :laugh:




yorT said:


> I'm not but Lutter should be using his gas tank as an excuse either, something you can prevent with training.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Lutter. I'm just saying even in his vegetative state he really showed that Silva can be outgrappled. I can't say if he was well-conditioned the same result wouldn't happen, because Anderson submitted him. I just don't like excuses in general being applied to performances, and I'm sure you share that sentiment.




yorT said:


> But he was remaining active fighting in the LHW division and even getting a win over Wandy, a top 5 LHW. Serra hasn't fought anyone in a long time.


Fighting in another division shouldn't secure your position in your original division. Serra held the belt, so I think that he can't be kicked out of the top 10 for inactivity when Dan Henderson didn't receive the same treatment.




yorT said:


> Yeah Sokky proved himself not once but twice. Now look where he is. Serra, Kos, and Fitch have proved themselves once. A great fight beats top competition more than once. Just they way I see and the way other sports see it. I mean where is Junior Da Santos? Don't see him ranked in the top 10 HW.


I agree, I'd have Dos Santos as #10.. Mirko certainly shouldn't be considered top 10 right now.



yorT said:


> BJ Penn is an elite BJJ guy, but he isn't ranked in the top 10 WW anymore. Anderson beat Lutter and Nate, both black-belts. Jake Shields is a great grappler but would called him an elite ground guy. Maia and Thales are elite ground guys and they aren't even ranked.


That's true that BJ isn't ranked top 10 right now, I actually forgot that lol. Anderson's beaten two blackbelts in the UFC, but GSP's more proven against ground fighters than him.



yorT said:


> Put guys in there with GSP that are better than him on the feet and see how he does. Lutter and Nate were suppose to be better than Silva on the ground and they still lost.


Exactly, that's why I'm excited to see how GSP fairs against Alves. The Marquardt fight never really was on the ground for long though, so I can't really vouch for Silva having better BJJ than him.



yorT said:


> And I respect you opinion a lot and I see where you are coming from. We are just looking at this from two separate angles.


And I'm glad we do, because I learn to look at things differently which increases my scope of knowledge. Thanks for sharing your opinion with me, I appreciate it. :thumb02:


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## chopsaw11 (Feb 7, 2009)

gsp is a greasy cheater


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

chopsaw11 said:


> gsp is a greasy cheater


Thanks for contributing your worthwhile point to this discussion.


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