# If Rashad gets past Shogun...



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

I'm a huge Rashad fan (bet you didn't know that) and I'm glad Rashad gets to fight Shogun. Stylistically, it's a good match up for him since Shogun has HORRIBLE takedown defense. With Shogun also recovering from a knee injury, Rashad's chances of winning go up that much more. But as an honest Rashad fan I've been worried... worried about this man..








Him losing to Rampage is the best thing a Rashad fan could ever hope for! If Rashad gets past Shogun, who can threaten him? Machida will have to work his way back up slowly, Jon Jones went on record and said he won't challenge Rashad, who else in the division can beat Rashad?

Discuss.


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## f4rtknock3r (Nov 22, 2010)

this is going to be a 5 round fight. shogun is going to be prepared, utilize leg kicks slow rashad down and ko him. rashad is not going to be able to hug and keep rua down for 5 rouonds.


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## GlasgowKiss (Sep 18, 2010)

I'd like to see the Rampage v Machida, Rampage, have another go at Rashad, as he was in far better shape on Saturday. The Rampage that turned up against Evans looked very slow compared to Rashad, more so than Rampage looked compared to Machida, and we all know Machida is quicker than Rashad.

I reckon a revitalized Jackson could take Evans


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## palmerboy (Oct 23, 2008)

GlasgowKiss said:


> I'd like to see the Rampage v Machida, Rampage, have another go at Rashad, as he was in far better shape on Saturday. The Rampage that turned up against Evans looked very slow compared to Rashad, more so than Rampage looked compared to Machida, and we all know Machida is quicker than Rashad.
> 
> I reckon a revitalized Jackson could take Evans


I agree with this


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

No one, Rashad is becoming a great fighter. He made some mistakes in the Machida fight and paid for them but he has already shown that the loss is just going to motivate him to be better and smarter. 

If he wins(as I think he will) the most likely next fights for him would be either Bader if he gets passed Jones, Franklin if he gets by Griffin or Rampage again. All 3 of which should be wins for him. 

As we saw Machida does look to be a bad matchup for him but I think Rashad could beat him in a rematch now that he knows more of what he is up against. I think we will get to see that rematch again in the next year or so.



f4rtknock3r said:


> this is going to be a 5 round fight. shogun is going to be prepared, utilize leg kicks slow rashad down and ko him. rashad is not going to be able to hug and keep rua down for 5 rouonds.


5 round fight is bad for Shogun imo. Go watch any of his fights that went past the 1st round. He slows down considerably especially when fighting a wrestler, it is also when he has suffered 3 of his 4 losses, 2 of which were due to him tiring out(Griffin and Sobral). The only one he didn't noticeably get tired in was the Machida fight but that was far from a tiring fight...

Shogun will lose a decision if it makes it that far. Imo he has to stop Rashad and likely has to do it in the first 2 rounds if he is going to win this fight.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

> I'm a huge Rashad fan (bet you didn't know that) and I'm glad Rashad gets to fight Shogun. Stylistically, it's a good match up for him since Shogun has HORRIBLE takedown defense. With Shogun also recovering from a knee injury, Rashad's chances of winning go up that much more. But as an honest Rashad fan I've been worried... worried about this man..





> Him losing to Rampage is the best thing a Rashad fan could ever hope for! If Rashad gets past Shogun, who can threaten him? Machida will have to work his way back up slowly, Jon Jones went on record and said he won't challenge Rashad, who else in the division can beat Rashad?


So Evans fans are just like the man himself; hoping Shogun turns up in bad shape with bad legs; hoping Machida can't work his way back up; relying on Bones not wanting to fight him. Then everything will be ok, takin it easy.

Pardon my French but that is ******* DISGRACEFUL, any decent fan or fighter WANTS Shogun to be in the best shape possible, WANTS Machida to climb up so Rashad can try to avenge his loss, and WANTS him to fight Bones to see who's better. Rashad Evans and anyone who supports his motives should be ashamed.

I'll tell you who in the division can beat him - just about everyone, once everyone realises he has a terrible stand up game, dancing round like a prick with no real idea about what he's doing, and can't do piss all on the ground with his 'amazing takedowns'.

I mean he's obviously a bad match up for Shogun and his HORRIBLE takedown defense. Damn man grow a brain, fighters who can't fight on the ground need takedown defense, Shogun is not one of those guys. Unfortunately for Rashad, he likes to take people down, but he is one of those guys who can't fight on the ground.

It's ok though, surely Greg will have a great gameplan :sarcastic12:


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Lets look at the reality of the situation yes?



SM33 said:


> So Evans fans are just like the man himself; hoping Shogun turns up in bad shape with bad legs; hoping Machida can't work his way back up; relying on Bones not wanting to fight him. Then everything will be ok, takin it easy.
> 
> Pardon my French but that is ******* DISGRACEFUL, any decent fan or fighter WANTS Shogun to be in the best shape possible, WANTS Machida to climb up so Rashad can try to avenge his loss, and WANTS him to fight Bones to see who's better. Rashad Evans and anyone who supports his motives should be ashamed.


I actually think he can beat the best Shogun ever, better than any Shogun we've ever seen, I've said that plenty of times before. The fact that he's recovering from an injury is icing on the cake IMO. It's the reality of the situation, not something I wish for. Shogun is my second favorite fighter. And Jon Jones said he won't fight Rashad, and since he's my favorite up and comer and he trains with Rashad, I do not want that fight to happen.

As for Machida, no, I don't want them to fight again. Even though I think it'd be a much closer fight, I don't want that fight to happen until Rashad defends his title at least once. But that's just me personally.



> I'll tell you who in the division can beat him - just about everyone, once everyone realises he has a terrible stand up game, dancing round like a prick with no real idea about what he's doing, and can't do piss all on the ground with his 'amazing takedowns'.


Do you seriously think that everyone can beat Rashad? I don't even need to respond to this.



> I mean he's obviously a bad match up for Shogun and his HORRIBLE takedown defense. Damn man grow a brain, fighters who can't fight on the ground need takedown defense, Shogun is not one of those guys. Unfortunately for Rashad, he likes to take people down, but he is one of those guys who can't fight on the ground.


Really? He can't fight on the ground? Tell that to Lambert, Forrest, Bonnar, Imes, all of TUF2, Hoger, Tito, Bisping, hell, even Rampage.



> It's ok though, surely Greg will have a great gameplan :sarcastic12:


Greg Jackson will have a great gameplan lol. It's not that hard to train for Shogun, it's just hard to beat him. Rashad has the right tools in the box though.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

Rashad isn't nearly as unbeatable as some people make him sound. I am not a Rashad fan, but I will admit the man has some pretty good skills. But in the pipeline to fight him should he beat Shogun:

Bader: Possibly better wrestling although Rashad has better movement in the stand up department
Forrest: I think Rashad would win a rematch, but never put anything past Forrest
Rampage: An in shape and dedicated Rampage could be very dangerous. He nearly KO'ed Rashad when he was out of shape and couldn't really follow through.
Franklin: If your name isn't Anderson Silva then you need to be careful as this man has proven time and again what a warrior he is.
Machida: Losing a split decision to Rampage isn't as bad as some are making it out to seem. He could easily got 2-3 wins in a row and be back in the title hunt.
Ortiz: Just kidding here

I know I am missing a few, but LHW is still probably the most competitive division. There are plenty of styles to counter and plenty of challenges ahead of him. His hunt to LHW is probably the easiest road he had, holding the belt at LHW has proven to be damn near impossible since Rampage KO'ed Chuck.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

Rashad is going to run a very conservative Jackson/GSP style strategy on Rua. That means great conditioning, a lot of wrestling, and very little striking. 

The more time they spend on the ground the more likely Evans will win. 

Evans does not have a great chin so if Rua can maintain his distance he can get a KO or TKO. 

Good stylistic matchup. I'm rooting for Rua, since I tend to find the Jackson low risk style rather dull.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

shogun is going to ko him. badly.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Rashads stand up defense is pretty awful. Thiago Silva almost finished him, Forrest was winning the stand up with him, Rampage almost put him away, Machida put him to sleep without any trouble. I just dont think he can go five rounds with Shogun or any other powerful striker without eventually getting caught and put to sleep. He eats way to many shots and it doesnt take many from Shogun.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

I don't know why the myth of Rashad having a bad chin is spreading.

I always thought that if you survived almost getting killed by Rampage and Thiago meant you had a *GOOD* chin. How is surviving 2 of the most powerful LHWs shooting their load a sign of a bad chin?


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## axewand (Nov 22, 2010)

rashad's chance of beating shogun is high, if he fights shogun smart wrestling like he did in the thiago silva fight, taking his legs out, dancing around and shooting unpredictable takedowns. But he can't stand up with shogun that long like he did in that fight with silva, his chin is a suspect, though he recovers a lil fast like he did in that fight with thiago silva and with rampage by grappling, he got knocked out by machida trying to exchange punches with him. I'm not saying he is glass jaw but I think his ability to take shots is a little low. If rashad utilizes his wrestling well, score points,he got great chance defeating shogun.

Biggest threats for suga stylistically:

Machida - very elusive, strong take down defense

Rich Franklin - great all around fighter, good skills.. (but like the other dude said "unless you're anderson silva")

Jon Jones - i don't know... I just feel he's a threat for anybody in the division. He's not been tested yet

Randy Couture - don't forget my poppa :thumb01:


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## palmerboy (Oct 23, 2008)

SpoKen said:


> I don't know why the myth of Rashad having a bad chin is spreading.
> 
> I always thought that if you survived almost getting killed by Rampage and Thiago meant you had a *GOOD* chin. How is surviving 2 of the most powerful LHWs shooting their load a sign of a bad chin?


I think its the fact that he had a visible wobble in both fights. Neither Rampage or Thiago managed to finish but it was late in the 3rd round both times and they were tired. He may not have a bad chin as such but he certainly doesnt show he has a good chin.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

I disagree, he has taken heavy shots throughout his career. Especially in TUF, you see him taking huge shots from heavyweights and he's a small LHW. When Rashad was rocked by Thiago Silva, he got hit many times before Thiago got so tired he couldn't swing any more, same with Rampage. Getting rocked by these two fighters usually spells the end of the fight, especially with Thiago Silva, that guy is uber destructive.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

It may not be that Rashad's chin is so much in question as maybe his head movement/defensive ability as he has been rocked in each of his last 3 fights.


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## KittenStrangler (Mar 26, 2010)

Shogun wins by KO via jab in the first round. Rashad's jaw is too weak to handle 5 rounds.


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## axewand (Nov 22, 2010)

Rashad has a great foot work and also good in dodging shots (except leg kicks). But when it comes to his jaw..


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## axewand (Nov 22, 2010)

KittenStrangler said:


> Shogun wins by KO via jab in the first round. Rashad's jaw is too weak to handle 5 rounds.


LOL :laugh:


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

I think he will lose to Shogun but if he gets past him then he has either Rampage, Franklin or Griffin waiting for him. I think Rampage would take him in a rematch as long as he is in shape like the Machida fight. Griffin was winning the fight before he slipped and i think he would win a UD against Rashad. Franklin always has great gameplans and i could see Franklin TKO'ing Rashad at some point. Rashad is definately overrated. I can't believe people bring up the Tito fight. He lost that fight and only got bailed out with the draw because of a point deduction in the last round i believe.


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## Freiermuth (Nov 19, 2006)

I'm pulling for Shogun but that would be interesting to see who Rashads 1st title defence would be against.

After Bader...maybe UFC is going to throw Randy back in the mix?


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## The Dark Knight (Jun 29, 2008)

I've a lot of respect for Rua but Rashad will be his downfall. Sure Rua's a better striker but not to the point where Rashad wouldn't be able to stand for a round with him. It's been awhile since Rua's been in the ring with a wrestler with the power and mental toughness of Rashad. Rua's got very strong BJJ, but I don't think it'll be enough to withstand Rashad's onslaught. And it will be an onslaught. I see Rashad being even more aggressive this time and really testing Rua's cardio. 

Rashad will more than likely be prepared for the best Rua but if we are all honest with ourselves Rua won't be the same when he comes back. Coming back from a pretty serious injury and getting into a big title fight of which is 5 rounds is extremely difficult to prepare for. Even the best version of Shogun wouldn't be that great of a match up for Rashad as his TDD is terrible and isn't that great mentally when he isn't able to dictate what's going on. Forrest exposed a key fault of Rua and I see that as the blueprint. 

It wasn't just because he was 'out of shape'. Rua realised he wasn't getting the upperhand no matter how hard he tried and basically just gave up even before Forrest choked his arse out. Rashad will be the first guy to knock Rua out, and I am willing to sig bet anybody for that. It should be noted that I have never lost a sig bet on here and I do not intend to start now. 

Also, I don't like all this talk about how Rampage was 'out of shape' and wasn't in the best condition to beat Rashad. If i'm not mistaken, a long layoff, no injuries and that last run at the belt as well as shutting Rashad up was more than enough motivation for Rampage to be at his best in his fight against Rashad. Rampage didn't look that out of shape to me, he was just outclassed and most here don't want to admit it. I just think it's really weak and unfair to try and take that win away from his considering both had the exact same amount of time to get in shape and neither had injuries coming into the fight. Even when it was RASHAD who made the error but shooting into his knee, he STILL couldn't finish him off! I think that alone says a lot about Rashad's chin, which is excellent to say the least. 

If you watch his fights back to back, he has taken some really hard fight ending shots. Headkicks, knees from the clinch, etc. 

Anyways, like I said, Rua loses this fight and he loses badly. Machida on the other hand...I hate to admit it but he MIGHT be the one guy who has Rashad's number.


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## Ruckus (Oct 2, 2009)

SpoKen said:


> I don't know why the myth of Rashad having a bad chin is spreading.
> 
> I always thought that if you survived almost getting killed by Rampage and Thiago meant you had a *GOOD* chin. How is surviving 2 of the most powerful LHWs shooting their load a sign of a bad chin?


I'll give you the Thiago fight but as far as surviving Rampage shooting his load, Rampage caught him one good time in the third and than whiffed several shots in the gNp. Just sayin'.

Had a very slow Rampage not whiffed I don't think we would be having this conversation. Personally I want to see Rashad and Rampage again with them both at their best. I certainly don't think we got the black on black crime fight we were all expecting.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Rashad can very well beat Shogun.

Style wise he beats Shogun, and Rashad can use his style very well when dedicated to it. He'll put a lot of pressure on Shogun, take him down, if he stands he'll take him down again. He'll wear on him and wear on him and wear on him. 

Shogun can always get the KO of course, but.. yeah, I see Rashad getting the takedown multiple times and winning a decision. He could even TKO him on the ground after wearing him down a lot.

I'd give this fight 60/40 in Rashad's favor, simply out of the style matchup and Rashad's ability to stick to a gameplan, along with Shogun's terrible TDD.


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## kay_o_ken (Jan 26, 2009)

if you look at rashads fights since machida where hes gone back to a lay and pray style, he gassed and almost got KO'd during the 3rd in both... he's not gonna win a 5 round fight with shogun


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

i actually want shogun to win and rashad to drop to middleweight, it would be way more interesting and we already know the jon jones story


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## Fine Wine (Aug 30, 2010)

This could be a very close fight.

Think Machida has the number of Rashad though, whilst Shogun has the number of Machida. 

Machida over Rampage in a 5 rounder, Shogun over Rampage, Rashad and Rampage close.

JBJ is the wild card in the mix, think he beats them all but perhaps Machida who will give him a very close fight.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

SpoKen said:


> I don't know why the myth of Rashad having a bad chin is spreading.
> 
> I always thought that if you survived almost getting killed by Rampage and Thiago meant you had a *GOOD* chin. How is surviving 2 of the most powerful LHWs shooting their load a sign of a bad chin?


I dont think Rashad has a below average chin, I just think he gets caught a lot. If Shogun catches someone, he will put them to sleep. Based upon Rashads last four fights, I dont see anyway he can go five rounds with Shogun without getting KO'ed.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

If Rashad really beats Shogun then the LHW division is officially screwed. Bones won't challenge him, Machida is far down the ladder, he already beat Rampage and Forrest (if he beats Franklin). Franklin would be a new matchup but to be hoenst I don't think he deserves a shot. Maybe they would set up Rampage/Rashad 2 after Rampage wins another fight against a solid fighter?


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## dsmjrv (Jan 27, 2010)

LOL Rashads chin pure cabbage, he will never hold the belt again... i really don't understand how, unimpressive wins (almost getting KO'd)over tiago and rampage can make you guys think he has a chance at beating shogun... 

and he is not big enough for the light heavyweight division to dominate a la GSP style... so the idea of him bullying the likes of shogun around to grind a decision is stupid because he is just not that good and not that big...

i am not a rashad hater, and i like to watch him fight but i know for a fact that shogun will beast him like he did to machida but it will be even worse...


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

I like the concept of Rashad going to Middleweight... his little head is having a little confidence issue at LHW nowadays, and he can't beat nearly any of the LHW Top 10 before the final bell, where he usually gets the decision for LnP and dancing about looking busy and hoping not to get blasted.

Shogun, Rampage, Machida are all primarily stand up fighters, very good at that and very good at KOing people, and if they don't KO someone or get KO'd, it's a war of patience and technicality. On top of that, they all have good ground defense, and Lyoto and particularly Shogun have great ground offense. Also, the current up n comers at LHW are not necessarily amazing strikers, but they all tend to finish their fights.

Rashad cannot hang with this. He is going to get destroyed in great fashion again within his next 2 fights.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

SM33 said:


> I like the concept of Rashad going to Middleweight... his little head is having a little confidence issue at LHW nowadays, and he can't beat nearly any of the LHW Top 10 before the final bell, where he usually gets the decision for LnP and dancing about looking busy and hoping not to get blasted.
> 
> Shogun, Rampage, Machida are all primarily stand up fighters, very good at that and very good at KOing people, and if they don't KO someone or get KO'd, it's a war of patience and technicality. On top of that, they all have good ground defense, and Lyoto and particularly Shogun have great ground offense. Also, the current up n comers at LHW are not necessarily amazing strikers, but they all tend to finish their fights.
> 
> Rashad cannot hang with this. He is going to get destroyed in great fashion again within his next 2 fights.


yep that was my idea, him vs anderson would be mildly intriguing


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## Bruce Buffer (Jun 29, 2009)

He won't beat Shogun, Shoguns stand up is fair to good he's certainly going to catch him at least once and Rashad will be finished by Shogun the mans a savage.. 

Don't get me wrong i want Rashad to win so Rampage can knock his ass out and get his title back then Rampage V Shogun 2 will be huge!!!


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## f4rtknock3r (Nov 22, 2010)

Rashad chin is garbage, He was only clipped (not a clean shot) once by rampage and thiago and almost lost the fight. Shogun is a legit black belt unlike rashad and shogun knows how to work sweeps and submissions. look back at shogun vs machida 2 where he attempted that crazy helicopter sweep.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

f4rtknock3r said:


> Rashad chin is garbage, He was only clipped (not a clean shot) once by rampage and thiago and almost lost the fight. Shogun is a legit black belt unlike rashad and shogun knows how to work sweeps and submissions. look back at shogun vs machida 2 where he attempted that crazy helicopter sweep.


Helicopter sweeps aren't that crazy, hell I use them all the time, it's effective for getting out of half guard.

Rashad is a VERY legit BJJ black belt. Many many world class BJJ BBs have commented on just how real Rashad's black belt is.

When was the last time you saw Rashad get sweeped and put on his back? Never from top position on the ground. I think the last time was back in the Stephen Bonnar fight.

Dude, it's okay to not like Rashad Evans because that's the "cool" thing to do, but don't deny the skills.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Man Rashad sure does get hated on a lot here.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Yeah this is going to be a tricky one, who does Rashad face if he does win the title.

I'm pretty sure Rampage/Rua is set in stone for the next title fight but timing is going to be a huge factor, no way does Rashad sit out another year. 

Seeing as how he's not going to face Jones, I guess that leaves Machida/Jones as the next main event.

Bader if he beats Jones would be the favorite for the fight, however he's going to be the underdog.

So it looks like the winner of Franklin/Griffin will get the next title shot. I think Griffin loses again...but Franklin is a tough mean nasty scrapper.

So the title line is likely to go Rashad/Franklin/Jones.


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## Ryankmfdm (Sep 24, 2010)

HitOrGetHit said:


> Man Rashad sure does get hated on a lot here.


He seems like a cool enough guy, I suppose, but it's all his fans who don't realize how overrated he is and who say nonsensical things like, "OH HELL BEAT SHOGUN 4 SURE!11!!!" that piss me off the most.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

I don't think he is overrated, and I don't even consider myself that big of a Rashad fan.

The guy is 15-1-1 with wins over Rampage Jackson, Thiago Silva, Forrest Griffin, Chuck Liddell, Stephan Bonnar and Michael Bisping. The only blemishes on his record are a loss to Machida and a draw with Tito Ortiz 3 years ago. He is also a former UFC champion.

I am not saying that he is the best fight or that he will or won't beat Shogun, but the guy is a talented fighter with the tools to win the UFC belt again.


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## f4rtknock3r (Nov 22, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> Helicopter sweeps aren't that crazy, hell I use them all the time, it's effective for getting out of half guard.
> 
> Rashad is a VERY legit BJJ black belt. Many many world class BJJ BBs have commented on just how real Rashad's black belt is.
> 
> ...


Rashad started training mma in 2004 and then appeared in TUF in 2005 in which he displayed zero skills in bjj. 4 years later he receives a black belt. Bj penn who only breathed bjj received his in 3 years. i am not saying he is bad at bjj but i dont believe his a legit black belt and never displays it.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

So tell us how you really feel


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

HitOrGetHit said:


> The guy is 15-1-1 with wins over Rampage Jackson, Thiago Silva, Forrest Griffin, Chuck Liddell, Stephan Bonnar and Michael Bisping. The only blemishes on his record are a loss to Machida and a draw with Tito Ortiz 3 years ago. He is also a former UFC champion.


The issue I see here is how he won those fights, were they clear dominating victories or did he just squeak out unimpressive wins? I'd argue that it leans more towards the latter, even counting the TKOs against Griffin & Liddell.

I'll start with those 2 fights, in both of those fights Rashad was getting outstruck for the most part and up until the end he was coming out on the losing side. He was getting picked apart by Forrest in the standup until he got Griffin down and Chuck was chasing him around the cage and beating him to the punch for the entire 1st round and a good part of the 2nd. He was getting beaten in both fights until he pulled off the big punch.

Agaist Rampage he opened with a big punch and not much happened until the 3rd when Rampage knocked him down and failed to capitalize. In between was a whole lot of clinching, takedowns to nothing and really crappy footwork from both fighters while moving around in the cage.

Against Thiago Silva it was takedown to nothing, clinch, repeat till the 3rd round where Rashad gets rocked and Thiago bobs & weaves around instead of finishing the fight. Nice takedowns, but he failed to inflict any significant damage off of them.

The Bonnar & Bisping fights are too far back for me to remember clearly so I won't comment on them, but I don't recall either one of them being a dominating performance.

Speaking of Forrest, I'd argue that his win against Rampage was far more impressive than Rashads. He stood & traded with Rampage and kicked the crap out of his legs to the point where Rampage could barely stand. He dished out the damage, took some hard punches in return, then went back for more and won the damn fight using every last trick in his book. 

Or let's go to Shogun's fight against Chuck. Shogun was the aggressor in that fight, he was cutting angles and putting putting pressure on Liddell for the entire fight until he got the KO. He was beating Chuck to the punch most of the time, hitting him with leg kicks, and even going for a leg lock off the takedown. Shogun beat him and he did so in an impressive and exciting fashion.

You can't say the same about Rashad, he wins but he doesn't do so in a way which makes me go "damn, he kicked his ass!" He's fast and he's got a ton of power in his punches but I don't see anything particularly technical or impressive about his technique. He's a darn good athlete but the technique still needs a lot of work. His footwork still sucks and he's not that good at all at cutting angles & controlling the range. Just watch how lost he was against Machida and contrast that with what Shogun was able to do. Or the Liddell fights, watch what he did then watch what Shogun did. The footwork isn't there, the technique isn't either.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

While he may not have won in the most impressive manner, he has still done well against top competition and only lost to Machida. I don't think it makes him overrated.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

If you count a win as a win then sure, he's done well. I'm looking more at how he won and the skills he's demonstrated in his fights. Some people claim that Rashad has great standup and so forth, I'm frankly not seeing it. Looking at footwork, technique, cutting angles & controlling distance, variety of strikes and all that, Rich Franklin is miles ahead of him in the standup department. And guys like Anderson Silva, Shogun, Machida and GSP are another level or more above Franklin.


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## Mauricio Rua (May 27, 2009)

What makes people think Rashad can keep takedown after takedown for an entire 5 rounds? Rashad isnt even known for his conditioning so that alone will be hard to do for 5 rounds as it takes more energy to get a takedown than to stuff one. Thiago Silva has as "horrible" takedown defense as Shogun does, yet even he managed to stop some. This is no walk in the park for either fighter. Rashad, though, has one tool to beat Shogun and that is wrestling. A fighter with the right _tools_ would be someone like Jon Jones or so.

But anyways, if Rashad gets past Shogun then already he has tough guys to crack. Bader and Davis already cause him many problems wrestling-wise. A very well rounded fighter like Franklin is always a tough one to beat also.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

This may be quite hard for Rashad fans to digest but to put it simply, when it comes to fighting, MMA, Rashad Evans is simply not in Shoguns league, not in the same dimension. Its like comparing Brock vs Cain, two completely different leagues. Shogun Rua is a born fighter.

You guys keep going on and on about how this is a bad stylistic match up for Rua when you couldnt be any more wrong.

Rashad Evans has solid take downs. Once it hits the matt, his game is any thing but solid. Ground control is weak, ground and pound weak, submissions, non existent. There is more to wrestling than god damn take downs, it is what you do on the ground.

Rua is a wizard on the ground and people are severely underrating his BJJ, its almost ridiculous how people just seem to count the JuJitsu guy out against the wrestler nowadays. Last time i checked, the most decorated wrestler to enter mma king mo got battered by the Ju Jitsu fighter Fejaou. Infact, i think there are a lot of similarities between king Mo and Rashad and i see the fight going down in a very similar fashion to the Fejaou fight.

Rashads striking is not in Ruas league, as already pointed out, his footwork, angles and striking defense is quite poor, he has good power, but thats really all he has going for him. He can not stand with Rua.

His only options are to wall n stall rua and take him down, but then when he takes him down he isnt safe either. Rua can either get back up or has the ability to sweep rashad and end the fight on the ground himself.

5 round fight, Rashads cardio is also notoriously poor. Shogun is not going to be tentative on the feet or worried about getting take down. Shogun will be in full beserker mode flying out with kicks and a range of strikes from the get go, quite frankly he doesnt give a shit that rashad is going to take him down, because he has nothing to worry about.

Rashad will not last 3 rounds with Rua. He is not in the same league. Different breed of fighter.


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## Ryankmfdm (Sep 24, 2010)

*Mckeever* knows what's up.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Mckeever said:


> Shogun is not going to be tentative on the feet or worried about getting take down. Shogun will be in full beserker mode flying out with kicks and a range of strikes from the get go, quite frankly he doesnt give a shit that rashad is going to take him down, because he has nothing to worry about.


And that's the big difference between Shogun and most other fighters when they go up against a wrestler. Many fighters, especially strikers get scared when they're up against a wrestler, they won't throw kicks and fail to commit on their punches since they're afraid of being taken down. For a prime example watch Kenny Florian's pitiful performance against Maynard.

Shogun ain't like that. Even when he was fighting at 20% against Coleman he was throwing kicks, knees, opening up with wild combos and doing all the usual Shogun stuff (in slow motion) even though he was taken down a dozen times. He doesn't give a shit cause he's not fighting for points, he's going for the highlight reel KO. Or hell, watch Machida's fight against Rashad, did Machida wuss out and stop throwing kicks? Hell no, he didn't give a shit and kicked the crap out of Rashad, he imposed the striking game on Evans and completely took away his wrestling. Shogun will be aiming for the same thing.

The best fighters don't give a shit, guys like Randy Couture, Anderson Silva, Machida, Wandy and Shogun don't get thrown off their strengths by their opponents. They go in the cage every time and make their opponents dance the tune they want, they impose their will on their opponents, not the other way around.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> This may be quite hard for Rashad fans to digest but to put it simply, when it comes to fighting, MMA, Rashad Evans is simply not in Shoguns league, not in the same dimension. Its like comparing Brock vs Cain, two completely different leagues. Shogun Rua is a born fighter.
> 
> *Well, I disagree 100% with this and I'll tell you why.*
> 
> ...


I'll bold my responses.


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

Assuming nothing crazy happens like Shogun's knee pops during the fight like what happened to Cote I don't see Rashad having too great chance. Rashad couldn't keep up with Machida who couldn't keep up with Shogun, who also happens to have have better ground game than Machida. Rashad will take Shogun down eventually, but we'll just end up seeing Shogun's beatiful ground game in work then.

Pretending Rashad gets past Shogun though I think Rampage would have his number on the rematch. As would Machida who I think will climb back to title shot eventually still, just not as quickly as he hoped. 
I would actually put Franklin above Rashad too as his striking game is better and Franklin is very slick man on the ground, he just suffers with elite level strikers (Silva, Vitor, Machida). I am unsure if Rashad can keep up with Franklin's pressure for 5 rounds, because very few people in ufc can.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

aerius said:


> And that's the big difference between Shogun and most other fighters when they go up against a wrestler. Many fighters, especially strikers get scared when they're up against a wrestler, they won't throw kicks and fail to commit on their punches since they're afraid of being taken down. For a prime example watch Kenny Florian's pitiful performance against Maynard.
> 
> Shogun ain't like that. Even when he was fighting at 20% against Coleman he was throwing kicks, knees, opening up with wild combos and doing all the usual Shogun stuff (in slow motion) even though he was taken down a dozen times. He doesn't give a shit cause he's not fighting for points, he's going for the highlight reel KO. Or hell, watch Machida's fight against Rashad, did Machida wuss out and stop throwing kicks? Hell no, he didn't give a shit and kicked the crap out of Rashad, he imposed the striking game on Evans and completely took away his wrestling. Shogun will be aiming for the same thing.
> 
> The best fighters don't give a shit, guys like Randy Couture, Anderson Silva, Machida, Wandy and Shogun don't get thrown off their strengths by their opponents. They go in the cage every time and make their opponents dance the tune they want, they impose their will on their opponents, not the other way around.


Very well said, every thing said here is 100 percent true.



SpoKen said:


> I'll bold my responses.


None of what you have bolded to me are really a concern. If you dont think Shogun is going to be in full beserker mode against rashad and throwing a range of kicks and hard punches then you really dont know shogun rua. The above quote explains it perfectly. And i dont know why you think its silly for strikers to kick against wrestlers, remember what happened to Urijah faber against Jose Aldo?

Shogun is one of the very best p4p fighters in the world and tbh i dont even think Rashad belongs in the same cage with him, shogun like i said before is just a different animal all together. I look forward to the fight and look forward to taking credits and sigs from any one whos up for a bet.


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## TheOldAssassin (Sep 17, 2010)

All these smaller LHW fighters - Rashad in particular, but also Machida and even Shogun - are living on borrowed time, for the likes of Jon Jones, Phil Davis and Ryan Bader are clearly the future at 205.

Paradoxically, Rashad might be better off than Shogun, Machida, Rampage etc., since Rashad can easily make a home for himself at 185 (and even 170 might be worth a try), while the same might not be true of the others.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

I think Jon Jones has better wrestling than Rashad so i believe he is a bad match up aswell.

Rampage who came to Machida fight didnt throw alot but was in better shape Vs Rasahd he nearly KO'ed him so dont rule that out in a 5 round fight. 

Bader i thin could also out wrestle Rashad. 

Machida well we all know. 

Evans is not good enough to be a long term champion im sorry there are so many guys who can beat him.


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## TheOldAssassin (Sep 17, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> Evans is not good enough to be a long term champion im sorry there are so many guys who can beat him.




You say "not good enough" - I say "not big enough."

Let's call the whole thing off.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

TheOldAssassin said:


> You say "not good enough" - I say "not big enough."
> 
> Let's call the whole thing off.


Not really. Bader, Jones and Davis all have one thing in common, they're all great wrestlers. Jones and davis in particular freakishly good. Even if they were not as big but possessed the same wrestling skill, they would be bad match ups for Rashad.

Im quite confident bader, JJ and Davis would all put a beating on Rashad right now.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

^^^ They would, but I don't have too much faith in them against the good strikers and guys who actually know how to attack/defend on the ground.

Rashad will get pushed into Middleweight, his record is much bigger than his skills and I think he's gonna get hurt/KO'd real bad at LHW within his next couple fights.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

SM33 said:


> *^^^ They would, but I don't have too much faith in them against the good strikers and guys who actually know how to attack/defend on the ground.*
> 
> Rashad will get pushed into Middleweight, his record is much bigger than his skills and I think he's gonna get hurt/KO'd real bad at LHW within his next couple fights.


Completely agree, shogun for example. A guy that can strike and a master on the ground would give Jones one hell of a fight.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

if rashad gets by shogun... i know someone who'll get one of the if not the first shot at him... machida.. im not sure rashad has improved in the ways that would be adequate for him to handle machida. we'll just have to see


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

SpoKen said:


> I'll bold my responses.


This isnt Shoguns first fight against a high level wrestler in a cage. He fought Coleman in a cage. Coleman may be old, but he is a lot bigger, most likely a lot stronger and quite a few notches better of a wrestler then Rashad.


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

SpoKen said:


> *When was the last time you saw Rashad get sweeped and put on his back?* Never from top position on the ground. I think the last time was back in the Stephen Bonnar fight.
> 
> Dude, it's okay to not like Rashad Evans because that's the "cool" thing to do, but don't deny the skills.


Pretty bad argument, as only 2 black belts Rashad has fought are Machida (who knocked him out before fight hit the ground) and Thiago Silva (in a fight that barely hit the ground if I remember right), not to mention Thiago's bjj is highly overrated.

Shogun has sweeped and submited much better grapplers than Rashad on the past, and I think you are delusional if you really think that it is Rashad's best intrest to try to outgrapple him. I dunno... I just think rashad is screwed standing or on the ground, but as clinching and wearing him out "Randy style" really isn't an option either I suppose diving for the takedowns is his go-to move on the fight.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

SM33 said:


> So Evans fans are just like the man himself; hoping Shogun turns up in bad shape with bad legs; hoping Machida can't work his way back up; relying on Bones not wanting to fight him. Then everything will be ok, takin it easy.
> 
> Pardon my French but that is ******* DISGRACEFUL, any decent fan or fighter WANTS Shogun to be in the best shape possible, WANTS Machida to climb up so Rashad can try to avenge his loss, and WANTS him to fight Bones to see who's better. Rashad Evans and anyone who supports his motives should be ashamed.
> :sarcastic12:


:thumbsup:this


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Diokhan said:


> Pretty bad argument, as only 2 black belts Rashad has fought are Machida (who knocked him out before fight hit the ground) and Thiago Silva (in a fight that barely hit the ground if I remember right), not to mention Thiago's bjj is highly overrated.
> 
> Shogun has sweeped and submited much better grapplers than Rashad on the past, and I think you are delusional if you really think that it is Rashad's best intrest to try to outgrapple him. I dunno... I just think rashad is screwed standing or on the ground, but as clinching and wearing him out "Randy style" really isn't an option either I suppose diving for the takedowns is his go-to move on the fight.


Rashad took Thiago down at will, but Thiago stood up pretty fast, Thiago is also a high level grappler who is never seen on his back. Remember, Machida couldn't keep Thiago down and Thiago was rocked.

Shogun has 1 submission on his record and that's against Kevin Randleman, and if you think that Kevin is better than Rashad than I'm just going to end the conversation now. Rashad is one of the highest level grapplers in the division, maybe behind Jon Jones and tied with Phil Davis, but he's definitely above Bader.

But from the sound of it, you don't really watch Rashad's fights, you skim. Same with Shogun apparently, because shogun has had a hard time with wrestlers not under pride rules. If this was pride I'd pick Shogun all day long, but under UFC rules Rashad takes this fight.

I just recommend you actually rewatch some of his fights, if you have the time and patience for it. His fights can get slow, but there is a reason why he only has 1 loss in all of his fights and he's already fighting for the title again.

EDIT: And for the record, because I like it when Rashad has easy fights, doesn't mean all Rashad fans like it when he has easy fights. That's just discrimination.


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## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

Id like to see Machida vs. Rashad II.. now that Machida has lost the invicibility aura .. i am truly dissapointed in Machida right now.. !

How can this fight happen? Rashad WILL lose to Shogun.. without a doubt ! 

After which, both fighters will need a win.

I believe Part Duex will be much more competitive and the winner will be hard to predict. 

I just wish Rashad would keep his mouth shut.. and stick to training.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

RudeBoySes said:


> Id like to see Machida vs. Rashad II.. now that Machida has lost the invicibility aura .. i am truly dissapointed in Machida right now.. !
> 
> How can this fight happen? Rashad WILL lose to Shogun.. without a doubt !
> 
> ...


This still confuses me. What has Rashad said lately that still pisses people off?


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

SpoKen said:


> This still confuses me. What has Rashad said lately that still pisses people off?


How about when he said he wants an interim title match because he doesn't like waiting? Or that he doesn't want another title shot if he doesn't get his now? These are the ones that come to mind. :thumb02:


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> How about when he said he wants an interim title match because he doesn't like waiting? Or that he doesn't want another title shot if he doesn't get his now? These are the ones that come to mind. :thumb02:


He earned his title shot, if they took it away how is that justified? Shogun hurt himself, so Rashad should suffer even though he stated as soon as he lost his title that that's all he cares about? Fighters wait an extended period of time to fight because their opponent is injured, why are people getting mad when Rashad does it for the title?


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

I have no problems with Rashad.
I think his fight with Shogun is a 50/50 fight.

Especially with Shogun's recent inactivity.

Rashad has a far better wrestling and could take Shogun down and control him. With Greg Jackson as the master mind behind him, he could pull it off. 
He would have to look out for Shogun's leg kicks and not try to be over aggressive with his striking, like Machida.

But, getting back to the idea of this thread.

If Rashad wins: for me, it would suck a bit.
WHY??? Because, in that case, there is no chance Jon Jones would fight for the belt!!! Jones himself said it: Rashad is family and he wouldn't fight him.
I wanna see Jon Jones fighting for/winning the belt and as long as Rashad is the champ, Jones would just have to fight/destroy the others.

If Rashad-Shogun will indeed happpen in March, the next title fight should happen sometimes in august-september 2011.
That's A LOT of time in wich a lot of things could happen.

On the other hand, i DON'T wanna see Rampage sit out until Rashad-Shogun happens, just so he could fight for the belt.
I rather have winner of Griffin-Franklin fight next.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

SpoKen said:


> He earned his title shot, if they took it away how is that justified? Shogun hurt himself, so Rashad should suffer even though he stated as soon as he lost his title that that's all he cares about? Fighters wait an extended period of time to fight because their opponent is injured, why are people getting mad when Rashad does it for the title?


No, it wouldn't be justified... but nobody has said that he wouldn't get his shot. That's just paranoid talk. Dana said they offered him a fight, but he refused saying it might "hurt his brand". Then Rashad comes out and says he doesn't like waiting and instead wants an interim title fight. How does that add up? Then again Rashad comes out and says he doesn't want to fight for the title again if he doesn't get his shot now. What kind of a comment is that? It's not like I'm genuinely pissed off at him but I think he's a drama queen.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Dana said they offered him a fight, but he refused saying it might "hurt his brand".


Not wanting to get mixed up in your talk with Spoken...but in Rashad's defense, he was offered a fight against Lil Nog, wich isn't a top contender in the division.

Winning would have meant nothing to him.
Losing, on the other hand, bye bye title fight.

And even with winning the fight, there is that risk of injuring yourself ad again it's bye bye title fight.

An interim title fight on the other hand - not a bad idea in this case.


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## strikersrevenge (Nov 20, 2010)

Shogun by Submission due to excessive wrestling by Rashad, and Rashad getting caught in Shogun's guard.


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## Can.Opener (Apr 8, 2009)

I've always thought Evans was a horrible match up for Rua.

He'd secure some takedowns but Rua will use his crazy sweeps and stand it back up quickly. I've never seen anyone who's able to go from bottom to standing with ease like Rua.

As for standup, Rua's Muay Thai is in a different class to Rashad's boxing.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

Rashad is an athlete, and a very smart guy as well. He'll probobly target Rua's knees most of the fight, wear him down, and LnP. However, I don't think Rashad will last long with Shogun. Rashad has already proven to have a glass jaw, though he has good recovery. With Shogun's killer instinct, I don't see Rashad being able to recover from a swarm of punches.


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## UKMMAGURU (Nov 15, 2009)

Depends which Shogun turns up.. last time he had an injury lay off it took him 2-3 fights to get back into top form.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

That was because he had serious knee surgery on a nasty injury, which took him out of action for close to 2 years. Shogun's knee is supposedly in very good condition after reportedly minor surgery, so I expect him to be in tip-top condition for the fight.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> I'll bold my responses.


RUA is 19-4 over the BEST in the sport. 

the only time his been tko'd is when coleman *broke his arm*. 

i dont see rashad doing it, sorry. 

SHOGUNS VICTIMS 

*Rd1*. Machida, 

*Rd1*. Chuck Liddell, 

*Rd1*. Rampage Jackson, 

*Rd1*. Alistair Overeem,
*Rd1*. (twice), 

*Rd1*. Ricardo Arona, 

*Rd1*. Kevin Randleman. 

Dec. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira, 

Rd3. Coleman. 

He's gone 19-4 while fighting the best of the best.

of his 4 losses. 

one was a sub early in his career. 
one was when he was fucked and lost to griffin. 
and we all know about the decision loss to machida. 

he got TKO'd ONCE to a broken arm via mark coleman. 

i think some people dont know who this guy is. 

the idea that somehow hes gonna get tko'd by rashad isnt impossible but really? 

this is a guys whos fucked up overeem twice in the 1st round. 

i like rashad but i get the feeling hes in trouble come fight night.


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

VincePierce said:


> RUA is 19-4 over the BEST in the sport.
> 
> the only time his been tko'd is when coleman broke his arm.
> 
> ...


Well summed up.

Don't get me wrong I have bet against Rashad in the past and almost every time he has proven my opinion of him wrong. However people are highly overrating Rashad too. Compare his resume with Shoguns and out of their recent fights compare Rashad's performance against Machida then both of the Shogun vs. Machida fights. Rashad couldn't keep up with Machida at all, who instead couldn't really keep up with Shogun too well either. 
I think it is fully agreed even by Rashad's fans that if he chooses to stand with Shogun he will get killed, so lets keep the focus on the ground game; Rashad has displayed very little offensive jitsu game and even his wrestling isn't as good as his fans make it be. Shogun on the other hand submited Randleman who is MUCH better wrestler than Rashad will ever be plus the sweeps Shogun has shown in the past are absolutely beatiful. For example the omaplata against Coleman was absolutely beatiful.

Mark my words: Rashad will get punished for each takedown he tries, and he wont accomplish much on the ground. I really don't see an area where he has an advantage as even though he can dominate where the fight goes with his wrestling, it is basically just a way for him to choose how he wants to lose the fight.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

I dont care if Shogun is 100% or not, I still think that Rash is a very bad stylistic opponent for him and that he will win.

Inside the UFC LHW the number of fighters rising or at the top of there game are slim, most now are on the decline, Jones, Bader and Davis are your only guys that really have a real chance at having an impact in the division, I think all 3 woudl cause Rash problems, but one guy outsode the UFC at LHW who I think would be a nightmare match up for Rash is.....


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

It was a dislocated elbow against Coleman not a broken arm, and it was right at the start of the fight so it's not like Coleman actually beat him, it was just a takedown and Rua landed bad.

I'm not sure why people are so confident in Bones Jones, Ryan Bader and Phil Davis, the only one of those I think could do consistantly well when in Top 5 is Bones - and that's only because his long body will help in keeping Rua, Lyoto and Jackson's fists at distance, if only for a short while.

Heavy handed wrestlers won't do a lot of damage to the current Top 5 IMO, Davis is confident with submissions but you have to get it to the ground first without getting KO'd. Ryan Bader didn't even know what to do with Lil Nog, and not knocking Nog but, he's not the best striker there is at LHW.

However, I think all these guys can give Rashad trouble, let alone Shogun who *should* demolish him.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

Rd1. Evans

Rd1. Machida, 

Rd1. Chuck Liddell, 

Rd1. Rampage Jackson, 

Rd1. Alistair Overeem,
Rd1. (twice), 

Rd1. Ricardo Arona, 

Rd1. Kevin Randleman. 

Dec. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira, 

Rd3. Coleman. 

fixed it.

its really all about Bones v Shogun. 

usually id say give him more time but **** that. Bones is looking all that and tearing up ppl who are hard to beat. theres no real downside to him losing and a big upside to him winning.
he acts like a baddass...feed him to the sharks man. see if he can eat them too. 

Bones v Shogun would be a fuckin war. 

if he can earn it with a quality win against Bader, i just dont see any reason to not make this fight.

and the hype would be stratospheric.

i think shogun would win this time, but the stare down and the ring intro would be incredible. 

who wouldnt buy that fight?


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## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

I hate how everyone makes a decision before the fight...you cannot say without a doubt in your mind that Shogun will win the fight. It's a fight anything can happen, Shogun is obviously the favorite because of his amazing stand-up qualities and his ability to get back to the stand-up game after he is taken down. At the same time, Rashad Evans has been in training since the Rampage fight where as Shogun, has been healing from an injury. It's going to take Shogun a little more time to get back into the gym where as, Rashad is probably fit and ready to fight in a week. But the fight will take place in about 4 months. All I'm saying is Rashad has had more time to prepare for this fight and he's worked extremely hard with Greg Jackson to figure out a way to beat Shogun.

I'm not saying Shogun won't win this fight, all I'm saying is that Rashad can win.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

ballers101 said:


> I hate how everyone makes a decision before the fight...you cannot say without a doubt in your mind that Shogun will win the fight. It's a fight anything can happen, Shogun is obviously the favorite because of his amazing stand-up qualities and his ability to get back to the stand-up game after he is taken down. At the same time, Rashad Evans has been in training since the Rampage fight where as Shogun, has been healing from an injury. It's going to take Shogun a little more time to get back into the gym where as, Rashad is probably fit and ready to fight in a week. But the fight will take place in about 4 months. All I'm saying is Rashad has had more time to prepare for this fight and he's worked extremely hard with Greg Jackson to figure out a way to beat Shogun.
> 
> I'm not saying Shogun won't win this fight, all I'm saying is that Rashad can win.


thats half the fun man. you get to remember the ppl who were so sure and laugh in their face afterwards. believe me ive heard experts deal in certainties and come unstuck. youre right of course.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Being a Rashad fan is great, I never really lose. There was the Machida fight, but I'm certain Shogun is a much easier fight for Rashad than Machida is.

Of course, you guys won't understand until you see the fight, which I'm cool with.


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## fmwfan (Nov 25, 2010)

Who do I think will beat Rashad....Ryan Bader


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

fmwfan said:


> Who do I think will beat Rashad....Ryan Bader


I agree. A bigger, stronger version of Rashad. A great wrestler with decent stand up and a lot of power in his hands.


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## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

joshua7789 said:


> I agree. A bigger, stronger version of Rashad. A great wrestler with decent stand up and a lot of power in his hands.


A LOT OF POWER IN HIS HANDS!!! He has only knocked out Jardine. Where as Rashad has knocked out the likes of Salmon, Jason Lambert and Chuck Liddell. Bader is a good wrestler but Rashad is a better one. Bader hasn't beaten fighters like Rampage, Thiago Silva, Forest Griffin, Chuck Liddell and Micheal Bisping has he. Rashad stood up with Rampage and got the better of him, Bader could not do that, the only way Bader wins fights is by taking the fight to the ground. (Unless he fights Jardine again lol)


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

SpoKen said:


> Being a Rashad fan is great, I never really lose. There was the Machida fight, but I'm certain Shogun is a much easier fight for Rashad than Machida is.
> 
> Of course, you guys won't understand until you see the fight, which I'm cool with.


Welcome to the land of sports; regardless of sports you can NEVER change the opinion of a person who has a solid opinion about how some match is going to end, which is also the beaty of it as after all the debating and "theorymma" we'll finally end up seeing the fight and one of us ends up being wrong. 



joshua7789 said:


> I agree. A bigger, stronger version of Rashad. A great wrestler with decent stand up and a lot of power in his hands.


not bad comparison, however I do think bader is much slower than Rashad, which is prolly how Rashad ends up winning the stand up game. With that being said though Bader definetily has the wrestling edge so if he can take Rashad down I can see him winning a decision.


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

KillerShark1985 said:


> I dont care if Shogun is 100% or not, I still think that Rash is a very bad stylistic opponent for him and that he will win.
> 
> Inside the UFC LHW the number of fighters rising or at the top of there game are slim, most now are on the decline, Jones, Bader and Davis are your only guys that really have a real chance at having an impact in the division, I think all 3 woudl cause Rash problems, but one guy outsode the UFC at LHW who I think would be a nightmare match up for Rash is.....


With his current gas tank...i doubt he would beat Rashad!
Rashad would win a decision or a 3rd round stoppage.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

ballers101 said:


> A LOT OF POWER IN HIS HANDS!!! He has only knocked out Jardine. Where as Rashad has knocked out the likes of Salmon, Jason Lambert and Chuck Liddell. Bader is a good wrestler but Rashad is a better one. Bader hasn't beaten fighters like Rampage, Thiago Silva, Forest Griffin, Chuck Liddell and Micheal Bisping has he. Rashad stood up with Rampage and got the better of him, Bader could not do that, the only way Bader wins fights is by taking the fight to the ground. (Unless he fights Jardine again lol)


He KO'ed Vinny, Lawlor (on TUF), and rocked Red Schafer with every punch that landed cleanly. The dude has very good power. I do agree that Rashad is a lot quicker though. Also, dont throw Lambert or Salmon out there when you are trying to show how good someone is. Those dudes arent even remotely impressive.


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## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

joshua7789 said:


> He KO'ed Vinny, Lawlor (on TUF), and rocked Red Schafer with every punch that landed cleanly. The dude has very good power. I do agree that Rashad is a lot quicker though. Also, dont throw Lambert or Salmon out there when you are trying to show how good someone is. Those dudes arent even remotely impressive.


Ok, I didn't give Bader the credit he deserves but at the same time I think that Bader couldn't handle a guy like Rashad. Also, Vinny isn't a very impressive fighter, he's got amazing jiu-jitsu that's about it. It's not an impressive feat to knock him out because he's got basically no stand-up at all.


----------



## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

ballers101 said:


> Ok, I didn't give Bader the credit he deserves but at the same time I think that Bader couldn't handle a guy like Rashad. Also, Vinny isn't a very impressive fighter, he's got amazing jiu-jitsu that's about it. It's not an impressive feat to knock him out because he's got basically no stand-up at all.


I agree, vinny isnt impressive, but it still only really took one punch from bader to end that fight.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Rashad made people fear for a person's life after 1 strike... twice.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> Rashad made people fear for a person's life after 1 strike... twice.


True, but to be fair...


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Well he has only been (T)KO'd that one time but has dished it out 5 times.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

HitOrGetHit said:


> Well he has only been (T)KO'd that one time but has dished it out 5 times.


And the said KO by Machida stole Rashad's soul the same way Serra stole GSP's. And the same way Rashad stole Chuck's.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Ari said:


> And the said KO by Machida stole Rashad's soul the same way Serra stole GSP's. And the same way Rashad stole Chuck's.


Rashad didnt steal anything from Chuck, Rampage did. Chucks chin is a small wooden plack gathering dust under Rampage's bed.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Ari said:


> And the said KO by Machida stole Rashad's soul the same way Serra stole GSP's. And the same way Rashad stole Chuck's.


Liddell was already going downhill, GSP has mauled everyone in his path besides Hardy and Rashad has won two straight since Machida.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Ari said:


> And the said KO by Machida stole Rashad's soul the same way Serra stole GSP's. And the same way Rashad stole Chuck's.


It stole his soul and caused him to win his 2 next fights? And GSP has no soul but looks unbeatable? Who can I fight that'll steal my soul like that?


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## TheOldAssassin (Sep 17, 2010)

Ari said:


> And the said KO by Machida stole Rashad's soul the same way Serra stole GSP's. And the same way Rashad stole Chuck's.




I wouldn't say Machida stole Rashad's soul, but he did steal Rashad's hands, as Rashad hasn't used them since - and probably never will again, at least not at 205.

One obvious Rashad-hater on another forum referred to Rashad as "Rodney Wallace with a better resume" - and I'm forced to admit that at this point, that's only a marginal exaggeration.


----------



## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm not a Rashad hater by any means. I don't particularly find him exciting, but alot was answered during the Machida fight. If you notice Rashad's record, alot of his wins were either lucky shots, or very close decisions. He was getting tooled by Forrest, should have lost to Tito, barely squeaked by Bisping, was losing to Liddell until landing an insane KO, squeaked by Imes, nearly got KTFO by an injured Thiago Silva, and hugged a slow and sluggish Rampage. Oh, I forgot, I think he actually threw a strike in that fight.

Machida definitely stole something from Rashad. He's terrified of getting hit, and even Rashad himself admitted that the Machida KO had a psychological impact on him. I have to give him props though, Rashad is probobly the smartest fighter in the UFC. He's man enough to admit his weaknesses (most notably his chin), and has followed a GSP blueprint ever since, he's just not near as good at doing it as GSP is.

A healthy Shogun would maul Evans into oblivion. The only question about this fight is whether Shogun's knee and cardio will be up to par.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

rashad has a very good chance of beating machida.


people won't admit it, but it's true. the rashad who fought machida was the rashad who thought he was a k-1 kickboxer, he didn't even attempt one TD.


----------



## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> rashad has a very good chance of beating machida.
> 
> 
> people won't admit it, but it's true. the rashad who fought machida was the rashad who thought he was a k-1 kickboxer, he didn't even attempt one TD.


I partially agree with the second half of your post, but styles make fights and Machida is definitely a bad matchup for Rashad. Machida's TDD is top notch. I think it's probobly the best there is, and Evans doesn't possess many offensive weapons aside from his wrestling and athleticism.


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Machida came nowhere near stealing Rashad's soul. It helped him if anything. Now he has realized that he is a wrestler and not this amazing striker that he thought he was. Not soul stealing but definitely eye opening.


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> he got TKO'd ONCE to a broken arm via mark coleman.


you have to remember... it wasnt like coleman broke his arm it was a freak occurrence ive seen once in a fight ever. he fell awkwardly and broke his arm from falling.


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

i think this is gonna be like cain vs brock, if brock takes me down we're getting right back up and he'll be forced to strike with rua and he'll lose by clinch knees to the head


----------



## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

SM33 said:


> So Evans fans are just like the man himself; hoping Shogun turns up in bad shape with bad legs; hoping Machida can't work his way back up; relying on Bones not wanting to fight him. Then everything will be ok, takin it easy.
> 
> Pardon my French but that is ******* DISGRACEFUL, *any decent fan or fighter WANTS Shogun to be in the best shape possible,* WANTS Machida to climb up so Rashad can try to avenge his loss, and WANTS him to fight Bones to see who's better. Rashad Evans and anyone who supports his motives should be ashamed.



completely disagree. no one wants to see a death in the octagon bud.


funniest RASHAD EVANS video on the internet ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0oLeXXWesA&feature=player_embedded#!


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

you guys be hating cause he looks better in a suit than you :thumb02:










the thing i dislike about rashad is his name.. sounds like a terrorist >_<


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

xeberus said:


> you guys be hating cause he looks better in a suit than you :thumb02:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


rashad comes from a very respectable school. the tuf school for boys. 

shogun comes from the pride school for men tho. 

when has shogun ever even attempted to win via decision.


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> rashad comes from a very respectable school. the tuf school for boys.
> 
> shogun comes from the pride school for men tho.
> 
> when has shogun ever even attempted to win via decision.


oh im not saying rashad is a better fighter than shogun... or more manly... or bangs hotter chicks... im just saying the guy looks nice in a suit :thumb02:

speaking of banging hotter chicks... who is rashad with?


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

xeberus said:


> oh im not saying rashad is a better fighter than shogun... or more manly... or bangs hotter chicks... im just saying the guy looks nice in a suit :thumb02:
> 
> speaking of banging hotter chicks... who is rashad with?


I remember seeing her on the rampage prime time show.

She is definitely, NOT HOT.


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> I remember seeing her on the rampage prime time show.
> 
> She is definitely, NOT HOT.












u srs? :thumbsdown:


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Rashad's wife is a cutie with a MASSIVE booty. I think her name is Latoya or something like that. If you think she's not hot you either never saw her, or you are INCREDIBLY picky. Or don't like black girls.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

xeberus said:


> u srs? :thumbsdown:













Edit: She looks better in this pic than i remember her on PrimeTime. And i dont remember seeing any booty. A black chick without booty just........aint right.


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

she looks good to me :thumb02:

although i need more body shots!

thin black chicks with big boobs/ass = win


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Ari said:


> I'm not a Rashad hater by any means. I don't particularly find him exciting, but alot was answered during the Machida fight. If you notice Rashad's record, alot of his wins were either lucky shots, or very close decisions. He was getting tooled by Forrest, should have lost to Tito, barely squeaked by Bisping, was losing to Liddell until landing an insane KO, squeaked by Imes, nearly got KTFO by an injured Thiago Silva, and hugged a slow and sluggish Rampage. Oh, I forgot, I think he actually threw a strike in that fight.


Notice Rashad's record? Lucky shots? Your just losing credibility as you speak, I read halfway through the paragraph and I already know this is nonsense. But, I'll go on.

He was not getting tooled by Forrest, he only lost 1 1/2 rounds before he kissed and grabbed his nuts, he then started winning and KO'd Forrest. He gave Bisping his first loss (It was his first right?) Just because he didn't crush an undefeated fighter doesn't make you bad. He didn't squeak by Imes, he just didn't have the power to finish the massive heavyweight. Thiago Silva had 1 moment in 15 minutes, your not gonna mention the rest of the fight? Not even gonna mention when Rashad passed from full guard to mount in a matter of seconds? Or Rashad beating Rampage handily standing in the 1st and 2nd round, even though Rampage only had 1 moment in the fight, he still came back and dominated even more. He threw more than 1 strike, actually WATCH the fight before you speak about them. Watch the second round of the Rampage fight.

Notice Joe Rogan say "Rampage is just getting outclassed on his feet" actual quote, go watch it.



> Machida definitely stole something from Rashad. He's terrified of getting hit, and even Rashad himself admitted that the Machida KO had a psychological impact on him. I have to give him props though, Rashad is probobly the smartest fighter in the UFC. He's man enough to admit his weaknesses (most notably his chin), and has followed a GSP blueprint ever since, he's just not near as good at doing it as GSP is.


Rashad is terrified of getting hit? Sure, he was fighting two of the most powerful strikers in the division after suffering a KO loss. And how can you say he's not as good as GSP at the same style if their both having equal success? Because he got hit?



> A healthy Shogun would maul Evans into oblivion. The only question about this fight is whether Shogun's knee and cardio will be up to par.


A healthy Shogun would not maul Evans in a CAGE fight, maybe in a ring though. Shogun has shown time and time again that he's lost grappling against a cage with a high level grappler.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

xeberus said:


> she looks good to me :thumb02:
> 
> although i need more body shots!
> 
> thin black chicks with big boobs/ass = win


This is THE body;


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> This is THE body;


thats definitely a white chick 

but sadly this is actually the chubby exception to the rule. vury attractive in my eyes.. and more so if she was black


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

I can't see it, did she lose her body? She had booty back in the day... or am I imagining things? Thanks for the new avy too Xeb.


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

SpoKen said:


> I can't see it, did she lose her body? She had booty back in the day... or am I imagining things? Thanks for the new avy too Xeb.


lol np 

for a second i was like... wait did i post a pic of spoken's ava x.X 

the guy wears a suit like a pro :thumbsup:


----------



## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> Notice Rashad's record? Lucky shots? Your just losing credibility as you speak, I read halfway through the paragraph and I already know this is nonsense. But, I'll go on.
> 
> He was not getting tooled by Forrest, he only lost 1 1/2 rounds before he kissed and grabbed his nuts, he then started winning and KO'd Forrest. He gave Bisping his first loss (It was his first right?) Just because he didn't crush an undefeated fighter doesn't make you bad. He didn't squeak by Imes, he just didn't have the power to finish the massive heavyweight. Thiago Silva had 1 moment in 15 minutes, your not gonna mention the rest of the fight? Not even gonna mention when Rashad passed from full guard to mount in a matter of seconds? Or Rashad beating Rampage handily standing in the 1st and 2nd round, even though Rampage only had 1 moment in the fight, he still came back and dominated even more. He threw more than 1 strike, actually WATCH the fight before you speak about them. Watch the second round of the Rampage fight.
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it better myself, summed it up perfectly. Rashad is being very highly underrated by a lot of people and I think he's not getting the proper respect that he deserves especially based on the fact he got knocked out badly by Machida. It's one fight, a fighter should not have his career defined by one fight.


----------



## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

xeberus said:


> u srs? :thumbsdown:














lol


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> lol


Heh, sippin on that haterade huh?


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

hater!


----------



## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

excuses...



SpoKen said:


> He was not getting tooled by Forrest, he only lost 1 1/2 rounds before he kissed and grabbed his nuts, he then started winning and KO'd Forrest. He gave Bisping his first loss (It was his first right?) Just because he didn't crush an undefeated fighter doesn't make you bad. He didn't squeak by Imes, he just didn't have the power to finish the massive heavyweight. Thiago Silva had 1 moment in 15 minutes, your not gonna mention the rest of the fight? Not even gonna mention when Rashad passed from full guard to mount in a matter of seconds? Or Rashad beating Rampage handily standing in the 1st and 2nd round, even though Rampage only had 1 moment in the fight,


Rampage almost decapitated him...again. im not quite sure he was conscious throughout that whole of that fight.



SpoKen said:


> Notice Joe Rogan


no way did you just do that. 



SpoKen said:


> say "Rampage is just getting outclassed on his feet" actual quote, go watch it.
> 
> 
> And how can you say he's not as good as GSP at the same style* if their both having equal success?*


huh


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> rampage almost decapitated him...again. im not quite sure he was conscious throughout that whole of that fight.no way did you just do that. huh


-.-

........


----------



## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> Heh, sippin on that haterade huh?


i was just sticking it to the man ...sir. 

lol. 

the picture of the cat reminded me of....urgh. nevermind.


----------



## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

xeberus said:


> -.-
> 
> ........


in english please.


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> in english please.


oh it translates to "please b/tch"


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

xeberus said:


> oh it translates to "please b/tch"


damn girl. we gave you a language. ...

i like rashad. i just think hes got massive vulnerabilities and ive seen them exposed far more times than gsp's.

rashads chin reminds me of sonnens bjj defense.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

He's not GSP but he is also fighting fighters with significantly more KO power than Welterweights. Rashad is ever improving, he may Chael Sonnen Shogun and not get subbed IMO.

And can you tell me where these massive vulnerablilites are? His chin isn't glass if he survives big shots from Rampage and Thiago. Are you maybe saying his weakness is... his striking defense?


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> He's not GSP but he is also fighting fighters with significantly more KO power than Welterweights. Rashad is ever improving, he may Chael Sonnen Shogun and not get subbed IMO.
> 
> And can you tell me where these massive vulnerablilites are? His chin isn't glass if he survives big shots from Rampage and Thiago. Are you maybe saying his weakness is... his striking defense?


confidence in something without quotable evidence isnt ignorance. i cant really cite a feeling from how he fairs against shots and the way he guards his weaknesses. youre right tho. i dont know that i can out argue you at this point. however my moneys on overhyped. and i bet against machida (v shogun) and penn (v edgar) so im on a hat trick.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

SpoKen said:


> He's not GSP but he is also fighting fighters with significantly more KO power than Welterweights. Rashad is ever improving, he may Chael Sonnen Shogun and not get subbed IMO.
> 
> And can you tell me where these massive vulnerablilites are? His chin isn't glass if he survives big shots from Rampage and Thiago. Are you maybe saying his weakness is... his striking defense?


The two key differences being that:

A) Rashads ground control isnt on Chaels level

and

B) Shoguns ground game is vastly superior to Anderson Silva's


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Mckeever said:


> The two key differences being that:
> 
> A) Rashads ground control isnt on Chaels level
> 
> ...


I can agree with A somewhat, I don't think the skill difference is there, but Chael is just more active on the ground.

B I disagree with entirely.

I seriously think you should consider watching Rashad's fights with Lambert and Bonnar and Hoger and Bisping again, you'll see the true potential of Rashad's ground game. No, I'm not comparing their ground game to Shogun's, but people saying he has no ground game is just kinda retarded.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Rashad loses against a motivated Rampage.

Everytime.

Not beerbelly Rampage.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

SpoKen said:


> I can agree with A somewhat, I don't think the skill difference is there, but Chael is just more active on the ground.
> 
> B I disagree with entirely.
> 
> I seriously think you should consider watching Rashad's fights with Lambert and Bonnar and Hoger and Bisping again, you'll see the true potential of Rashad's ground game. No, I'm not comparing their ground game to Shogun's, but people saying he has no ground game is just kinda retarded.


I watched the Bisping fight just the other day actually, far, far from impressive, he barley managed to out grapple Mike. Lambert, Bonnar, Hoger? Why even mention these guys lol, none of them are even close to top tier competition.

Said it before but i'll say it again.

Rashad has decent take downs, hes fast and has decent power in his hands, but there is sooooooo much more left to be desired. His striking defense is poor (that flashy head movement nonsense is embarrassing), his ground control is weak and his cardio is sub-par. Rashads strongest point are his take downs, but beyond that, there really isnt much to brag about.


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> damn girl. we gave you a language. ...
> 
> i like rashad. i just think hes got massive vulnerabilities and ive seen them exposed far more times than gsp's.
> 
> rashads chin reminds me of sonnens bjj defense.


sorry about negging you in the other thread 

i blame the alcohol and misplaced anger >_<


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

xeberus said:


> sorry about negging you in the other thread
> 
> i blame the alcohol and misplaced anger >_<


lol. we all make a dick out of ourselves sometimes


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> lol. we all make a dick out of ourselves sometimes


stick around ill +rep you when i can rep you again >_<


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

I'll try and bump pierce out of the red. Take some ADMIN REP HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

wow, 1 rep and you go full green, I can't rep people like I used to.


----------



## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

SpoKen said:


> I'll try and bump pierce out of the red. Take some ADMIN REP HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
> 
> wow, 1 rep and you go full green, I can't rep people like I used to.


wewt =D

thanks spoken :thumbsup:


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> I'll try and bump pierce out of the red. Take some ADMIN REP HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
> 
> wow, 1 rep and you go full green, I can't rep people like I used to.


ha ha niiice. 

thank you kindly

im still picking shogun ftw tho. i dont want to lose my E soul


----------



## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

SpoKen said:


> I can agree with A somewhat, I don't think the skill difference is there, but Chael is just more active on the ground.
> 
> B I disagree with entirely.
> 
> I seriously think you should consider watching Rashad's fights with Lambert and Bonnar and Hoger and Bisping again, you'll see the true potential of Rashad's ground game. No, I'm not comparing their ground game to Shogun's, but people saying he has no ground game is just kinda retarded.


He's right in a sense, he just worded it wrong. Shogun's guard play is infinitely better than Silva's. Shogun doesn't get held down and he hits and goes for a LOOOOOOOOOOOT of sweeps, he won't get held down like Silva did. Silva has a thing where he's comfortable just working off his back, Shogun is constantly looking for sweeps and trying ot regain top position.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

TraMaI said:


> He's right in a sense, he just worded it wrong. Shogun's guard play is infinitely better than Silva's. Shogun doesn't get held down and he hits and goes for a LOOOOOOOOOOOT of sweeps, he won't get held down like Silva did. Silva has a thing where he's comfortable just working off his back, Shogun is constantly looking for sweeps and trying ot regain top position.


There we go, this I agree with. And for the record, no I don't think Rashad can hold Shogun down for more than 15 to 30 seconds at a time. I think he wins this fight against the wall.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> ha ha niiice.
> 
> thank you kindly
> 
> im still picking shogun ftw tho. i dont want to lose my E soul


Oh of course, debates are just debates. Their fun when the fans really care about their fighter, they can get heated too, but it's all in love man. We both have no idea how the fight will actually play out until it happens.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

SpoKen said:


> And can you tell me where these massive vulnerablilites are? His chin isn't glass if he survives big shots from Rampage and Thiago. Are you maybe saying his weakness is... his striking defense?


He survived against Thiago since Thiago for whatever dumbass reason backed off and did the bob & weave routine halfway across the cage and gave him time to recover. If he'd waded in with follow up punches after rocking him, it would've ended the same way as the Rashad's fight against Machida. Same thing with the fight against Rampage, if Rampage didn't have the most inaccurate ground & pound I've seen in a while and actually managed to connect on the follow-up shots, Evans would once again be out cold.

Shogun doesn't make those mistakes, if he knocks someone down that guy is getting blasted with blasted with accurate full power shots before he even hits the ground. Look at his fights against Chuck & Machida, how many of those follow-up shots missed? Maybe 1 out of 10? In both cases, 5 seconds from knockdown to fight over.

When his last 3 opponents have all managed to knock him loopy, and in the case of Machida put him out cold, I'd argue that yes, Rashad's striking defence needs a bit of work to say the least.


----------



## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

aerius said:


> He survived against Thiago since Thiago for whatever dumbass reason backed off and did the bob & weave routine halfway across the cage and gave him time to recover. If he'd waded in with follow up punches after rocking him, it would've ended the same way as the Rashad's fight against Machida. Same thing with the fight against Rampage, if Rampage didn't have the most inaccurate ground & pound I've seen in a while and actually managed to connect on the follow-up shots, Evans would once again be out cold.
> 
> Shogun doesn't make those mistakes, if he knocks someone down that guy is getting blasted with blasted with accurate full power shots before he even hits the ground. Look at his fights against Chuck & Machida, how many of those follow-up shots missed? Maybe 1 out of 10? In both cases, 5 seconds from knockdown to fight over.
> 
> When his last 3 opponents have all managed to knock him loopy, and in the case of Machida put him out cold, I'd argue that yes, Rashad's striking defence needs a bit of work to say the least.


You can't say without a doubt in your mind that Rampage and Thiago Silva would have knocked out Rashad had they have done certain things. THE FACT remaining they didn't, so Rashad won the fight. And even after getting rocked both times, Rashad still manage to basically dominate Silva and Rampage even in the stand-up aspect of the fights. A lot of fighters cannot even recover after being rocked like that even if their opponent doesn't hit with clean shots and a lot of them end up losing the fight.


----------



## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

I think the clinch is an even worse position for him, he might be able to hold shogun against the cage but I think he;ll eat a lot of elbows and knees doing so, eventually leading to a TKO if he tries to keep it there... in all honesty the one way I see Rashad winning this is antiGSPing him. Use his wrestling to set up his striking.


----------



## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Yeah, Rashad sticking in the clinch with Shogun would be a recipe for disaster.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

the reason I say the clinch is his control, I think he'll keep a high clinch and drop down and nail takedowns.

Of course, elbows is something I didn't consider elbows in theh clinch... Could Rashad avoid em? I think so, but it's a good argument.


----------



## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

This fight worries me, as a Shogun fan on the basis it's Rua's first fight back after surgery. Forrest smashed him and he looked VERY bad against Coleman. But if a healthy Shogun shows up it'll be a very early night for Rashad, Thiago and Rampage both rocked him, if Shogun clips him he'll go in for the kill and that'll be that. Rashad's only chance in this fight is to go for takedown after takedown but his cardio is very questionable, Shogun has amazing sweeps and I see him ending it, in the later rounds. Rashad should cruise through the first two rounds on takedowns, and then in the third Shogun catches him and wins via brutal KO.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

I find it really convenient that if Shogun loses he's not healthy. Just like Rampage wasn't in shape and Thiago had a bad back. It just discredit wins. You can literally do that with any fight.


----------



## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

EliteUndisputed said:


> This fight worries me, as a Shogun fan on the basis it's Rua's first fight back after surgery. Forrest smashed him and he looked VERY bad against Coleman. But if a healthy Shogun shows up it'll be a very early night for Rashad, Thiago and Rampage both rocked him, if Shogun clips him he'll go in for the kill and that'll be that. Rashad's only chance in this fight is to go for takedown after takedown but *his cardio is very questionable*, Shogun has amazing sweeps and I see him ending it, in the later rounds. Rashad should cruise through the first two rounds on takedowns, and then in the third Shogun catches him and wins via brutal KO.


His cardio is questionable? Have you watched his last two fights, he has been fighting at a very fast and quick pace that has not slowed down at all. If there is any cardio questions it should be, on Shogun because he is coming off an injury.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

Rashad has never been five rounds, Shogun has. We know Shogun can go five hard rounds, we don't know that about Rashad. If he wins, major props to him. But the fact that Rampage and Thiago DID clip him, make me think it's only a matter of time until Shogun who is a much better striker than both catches him.


----------



## ballers101 (Aug 6, 2010)

EliteUndisputed said:


> Rashad has never been five rounds, Shogun has. We know Shogun can go five hard rounds, we don't know that about Rashad. If he wins, major props to him. But the fact that Rampage and Thiago DID clip him, make me think it's only a matter of time until Shogun who is a much better striker than both catches him.


I know that fighting 3 rounds is different from 5 but at the same time, Rashad's pace is one of the bests in the light heavyweight division, I doubt he will have cardio questions. Obviously, Shogun is a far better striker and the odds are definitely in favor of Shogun probably like 2-1 in favor Shogun.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

EliteUndisputed said:


> Rashad has never been five rounds, Shogun has. We know Shogun can go five hard rounds, we don't know that about Rashad. If he wins, major props to him. But the fact that Rampage and Thiago DID clip him, make me think it's only a matter of time until Shogun who is a much better striker than both catches him.


That fight with Machida barely hit the ground and had little grappling. Grappling makes 5 round fights MUCH more grueling.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

Same thing applies for Rashad doesn't it, he'll be the one expending his energy shooting and trying to wrestle Shogun to the ground, don't you think that'll be a little tiring, especially if Shogun keeps sweeping and getting back up?

Machida took Shogun down in the second fight, and he had no trouble getting up at all, granted that fight didn't go the full 25, but we've seen he has no problem getting back up to his feet in his career.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> I find it really convenient that if Shogun loses he's not healthy. Just like Rampage wasn't in shape and Thiago had a bad back. It just discredit wins. You can literally do that with any fight.


shogun has more LEGIT excuses for his 4 losses than any other fighter in history. lets be fair. i doubt any serious sports writer would blame him for all of them. i doubt even you (in arguing what you just said)would go that far.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

ballers101 said:


> I know that fighting 3 rounds is different from 5 but at the same time, Rashad's pace is one of the bests in the light heavyweight division, I doubt he will have cardio questions.


It's still nothing impressive compared to the kind of pace Shogun can set when he's in shape. Look at the Shogun's run in the 2005 Grand Prix, especially the fights against Rampage, Overeem, and Arona, there's no way anyone can keep up with that kind of pace. If Shogun shows up in that shape (unfortunately there's no guarantee he will), I can't name anyone in the UFC LHW division that can keep up with it, just like there's no one in the WW division that can handle GSP's riddum.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> shogun has more LEGIT excuses for his 4 losses than any other fighter in history. lets be fair. i doubt any serious sports writer would blame him for all of them. i doubt even you (in arguing what you just said)would go that far.


No matter how legit an excuse is I never count it. Rashad has no excuse for getting beatdown by Machida and I'll make none for him. Rampage has no excuse for losing to Rashad, Shogun has no excuse for losing to Machida and vice versa. My opinion is if you show up to fight, you're in fighting shape. They may not be in the best shape of their life, but their in fighting shape.


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## MikeHawk (Sep 11, 2009)

Rashad hasn't looked to great cardio wise in his last 2 fights. He always fades in the 3rd round. It'll be interesting to see who comes in with the better cardio since Shogun is coming off a minor surgery and Rashad's cardio has always been a little lackluster.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

I'm assuming Rashad's cardio will be through the roof, he's been training non stop since the Rampage fight while Shogun had to rest. After witnessing the kind of workouts Rashad puts himself through, Cardio will be the LEAST of his worries.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> No matter how legit an excuse is I never count it. Rashad has no excuse for getting beatdown by Machida and I'll make none for him. Rampage has no excuse for losing to Rashad, Shogun has no excuse for losing to Machida and vice versa. My opinion is if you show up to fight, you're in fighting shape. They may not be in the best shape of their life, but their in fighting shape.


hmmm. 

a freak arm injury.

the most disputed decision of the decade 

and a loss to forest griffin when he was injured. 

you could have been more real about it than that.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

SpoKen said:


> I'm assuming Rashad's cardio will be through the roof, he's been training non stop since the Rampage fight while Shogun had to rest. After witnessing the kind of workouts Rashad puts himself through, Cardio will be the LEAST of his worries.


Workouts are important but they aren't everything, genetics are a gift and sometimes it ain't fair. For instance I can work my ass off every day for a couple months and pop EPO and steroids while I'm at it, and I'll still be in worse shape then my wife even if she sits on her ass for the first 6 weeks. That's why I'm just a half-ok athelete while she was a national level athlete. We ain't born equal, some people need to work their asses off just to keep up with the average.

Or to use a UFC example, you got GSP who was eating Big Macs and still beating the crap out of everyone and setting a pace that nobody could match. He could probably cut his workouts in half and there still wouldn't be anyone that could keep up with his riddum.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> hmmm.
> 
> a freak arm injury.
> 
> ...


Coleman took him down and Shogun fell on his arm wrong, that's why Coleman got the win. Shogun didn't just slip up on his feet and break his arm. A freak injury is more Patrick Cote/ Anderson Silva.

Never leave fights to the judges, this is MMA 101.

Like I said, he stepped in the octagon against Forrest and loss, injury or not it doesn't matter, he lost.

If you step in the cage you accept the consequences, why can't the fans?


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

I agree with Spoken.

Excuses to a fighter losing are sad unless there's an actual real reason why he lost the fight. Shogun lost to Machida, Shogun lost to Griffin, and Shogun lost to Coleman. Was his lost to Coleman devastating? No, it wasn't. But it's not as if he slipped a Banana peel, he broke his arm falling from a takedown. It was the takedown that did the damage.

A loss is a loss.

As for the fight itself, Rashad's style is devastating to Shogun, it's a nightmare match up. I see Rashad winning, although at this level and with Shogun's pure raw skill, who the hell knows what happens.


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## TheOldAssassin (Sep 17, 2010)

But nothing has a more deleterious effect on cardio than carrying too much weight around - and Rashad is carrying at least 20 pounds too much weight around. Maybe even 35 - see Josh Koscheck, who wrestled at the same weight class as Rashad when both were seniors in college.

Not only that, but Rashad would become far more physical, far more aggressive, and far more "exciting" if he moves down, to at least 185.


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## NikosCC (May 16, 2007)

I am still going with Shogun but i do see alot more positives for Rashad since the Knee has acted up again..


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## starbug (Sep 9, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> shogun is going to ko him. badly.


Ko'ing him isnt enough? Now he has to kO him "badly" ? Ouch wudnt wanna be him


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

> As for the fight itself, Rashad's style is devastating to Shogun, it's a nightmare match up. I see Rashad winning, although at this level and with Shogun's pure raw skill, who the hell knows what happens.


How is Rashad's style devastating, cus he might take Shogun down? Watch the first Coleman fight up until the injury, Coleman was getting submitted that night no question about it, and that was back when Coleman was younger, stronger, more agile, and much bigger than Rua, his style actually was devastating.

Evans can't hold Shogun down and he can't roll with him, so what's he gonna do?

What do you mean by pure raw skill? He's not just a dude who happens to be quite good at fighting, he does know a thing or two...


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## Erem Kell (Nov 26, 2010)

*goodluck*

Well, I see that both fighters have their own fans. We just hope that at the end of their fight no one gets injured. We can't say that I hope no one gets hurt because it will not be a fight if no one gets hurt. Best of luck to both of them and I hope they will give us a good fight.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

SpoKen said:


> I'm a huge Rashad fan (bet you didn't know that) and I'm glad Rashad gets to fight Shogun. Stylistically, it's a good match up for him since Shogun has HORRIBLE takedown defense. With Shogun also recovering from a knee injury, Rashad's chances of winning go up that much more. But as an honest Rashad fan I've been worried... worried about this man..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You make some good points about his injury and i think Rashad has more of a chance then people give him credit for, I think Shogun will win that fight, but it will be a very interesting fight, and ill be rooting for Rashad because i like him as much as Shogun and Rashad is the total under dog in this fight.

Cant wait, to bad for the injury slow down


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

the arm break ^


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

M.C said:


> I agree with Spoken.
> 
> Excuses to a fighter losing are sad unless there's an actual real reason why he lost the fight. Shogun lost to Machida, Shogun lost to Griffin, and Shogun lost to Coleman. Was his lost to Coleman devastating? No, it wasn't. But it's not as if he slipped a Banana peel, he broke his arm falling from a takedown. *It was the takedown that did the damage.*
> 
> ...












lmao ^^^

a *TRULY *freak injury, a ridiculous decision, and a injured fighter losing arent gonna get wiped off the record. 

they are however pretty fuckin weak arguments against him.

im not saying to change the record. im saying you got a pretty superficial way of looking at it.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> im not saying to change the record. im saying you got a pretty superficial way of looking at it.
> 
> a freak injury, a ridiculous decision, and a injured fighter losing arent gonna get wiped off the record.
> 
> they are however pretty fuckin weak arguments against him.


Okay, the only reason Machida won is because Rashad didn't use any wrestling. If he used wrestling Rashad would have beat Machida all day long.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> Okay, the only reason Machida won is because Rashad didn't use any wrestling. If he used wrestling Rashad would have beat Machida all day long.












*reaching *present participle of reach (Verb)

1. Stretch out an arm in a specified direction in order to touch or grasp something: "he reached over and turned off his bedside light".

2. Make a movement with one's hand or arm in an attempt to touch or grasp (something): "Carl reached for the phone"


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Of course i'm reaching. To me, using excuses is as stupid as the comment I just made. In that gif, is Shogun getting taken down? Yes he is, and he fell wrong, messed up his elbow, and lost because of it.

And losing a decision is losing a decision, it wasn't even a split decision, it was a UD.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

That GIF did Show Coleman taking Shogun down, yes? Did Shogun trip? No. What caused him to break his arm? Him falling. Why was he falling? Cause Coleman took him down.

Add it all together and, OH, it = Coleman's take down lead to Shogun's broken arm.

Pretty common sense stuff.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

M.C said:


> That GIF did Show Coleman taking Shogun down, yes? Did Shogun trip? No. What caused him to break his arm? Him falling. Why was he falling? Cause Coleman took him down.
> 
> Add it all together and, OH, it = Coleman's take down lead to Shogun's broken arm.
> 
> Pretty common sense stuff.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/75883-what-the-top-five-freak-injuries-in-mma

number 4 freak injury in the history of mma. there are more cites than this one i have listed. its pretty legendary stuff imo.

your argument is strong sir. so strong i fear it is bending the truth. 

as freak injuries go its right up there with frikken ...










i think the chances of of rashad pulling of another tko via takedown highly unlikely. 

thats why whilst i accept the record, as i begrudgingly do the fedor cut et al....
it dont really take away from the fighter.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> Okay, the only reason Machida won is because Rashad didn't use any wrestling. If he used wrestling Rashad would have beat Machida all day long.


Wow. Just...Wow.
I have always held you in pretty high regard, especially after you helped me out when I first registered, but this statement is...Yeah.

I'm sure you've seen Rashad vs. Tito. Tito outworked and outwrestled Rashad, and if it was not for the point deduction it would have been an easy fight to call. Machida made Tito look like a damn fool for 14:45 of that entire fight. I'll concede that post-Shogun Machida is a different fighter whose style is starting to be figured out, but it's no secret that if Rashad can't take you down, he's toast. His chin can't hold up, and he's terrified of using his hands. Machida is the perfect anti-wrestler. He has top-notch TDD and is alot faster and stronger than he looks. If he ever starts opening up, and stops trying to be "elusive" all the time, I have no doubt that Machida will become the LHW Champion again. Oh, and look at my sig. I HATE Blackhouse.

Rashad's only skills are his athleticism, intelligence, and his wrestling. Machida is either better, or just as good as Rashad in all those areas.

Machida beats Rashad 9/10.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

Ari said:


> Wow. Just...Wow.
> I have always held you in pretty high regard, especially after you helped me out when I first registered, but this statement is...Yeah.
> 
> I'm sure you've seen Rashad vs. Tito. Tito outworked and outwrestled Rashad, and if it was not for the point deduction it would have been an easy fight to call. Machida made Tito look like a damn fool for 14:45 of that entire fight. I'll concede that post-Shogun Machida is a different fighter whose style is starting to be figured out, but it's no secret that if Rashad can't take you down, he's toast. His chin can't hold up, and he's terrified of using his hands. Machida is the perfect anti-wrestler. He has top-notch TDD and is alot faster and stronger than he looks. If he ever starts opening up, and stops trying to be "elusive" all the time, I have no doubt that Machida will become the LHW Champion again. Oh, and look at my sig. I HATE Blackhouse.
> ...


to be fair (i think) he was trying to refute my point by making an equally ridiculous counter point. the difference was its apples and oranges. shoguns freak injury was just that. it cant be reproduced. it wasnt coleman patented takedown tko technique and it wont happen again in 100 fights. shit like that pops up once in every so often when the god of mma feels like making fools of us all. it had **** all to do with shogun, coleman or the price of milk in bolivia. 

i assume the point was that i was making excuses though, so i wouldnt take the counter arguement as literal.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Ari said:


> Wow. Just...Wow.
> I have always held you in pretty high regard, especially after you helped me out when I first registered, but this statement is...Yeah.
> 
> I'm sure you've seen Rashad vs. Tito. Tito outworked and outwrestled Rashad, and if it was not for the point deduction it would have been an easy fight to call. Machida made Tito look like a damn fool for 14:45 of that entire fight. I'll concede that post-Shogun Machida is a different fighter whose style is starting to be figured out, but it's no secret that if Rashad can't take you down, he's toast. His chin can't hold up, and he's terrified of using his hands. Machida is the perfect anti-wrestler. He has top-notch TDD and is alot faster and stronger than he looks. If he ever starts opening up, and stops trying to be "elusive" all the time, I have no doubt that Machida will become the LHW Champion again. Oh, and look at my sig. I HATE Blackhouse.
> ...


Reference my post after that, I know what I said was dumb. That statement was to get my point across, for the record I hate the thought of Rashad fighting Machida again, even though some Rashad fans think he can win the rematch, I don't see it happening.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

VincePierce said:


> http://bleacherreport.com/articles/75883-what-the-top-five-freak-injuries-in-mma
> 
> number 4 freak injury in the history of mma. there are more cites than this one i have listed. its pretty legendary stuff imo.
> 
> ...


How is it bending the truth. Did you WATCH the GIF? Coleman took him down and his arm broke. His arm broke at the result of falling, and the reaosn he was falling is because of the takedown.

It does not matter how often that happens or how unique it is for a fighter to lose that way, he LOST because he was taken down and his arm broke from the fall. His arm broke as a result of the takedown, that's why Coleman got a W and Shogun got a L.

Facts are facts, you can throw around any "freak accident" comments you like, the FACT is that the takedown was the cause of the fall, and the fall broke his arm, therefore Coleman's takedown was the root cause of the broken arm.

This is not an opinion, this is a 100% irrefutable FACT.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

M.C said:


> How is it bending the truth. Did you WATCH the GIF? Coleman took him down and his arm broke. His arm broke at the result of falling, and the reaosn he was falling is because of the takedown.
> 
> It does not matter how often that happens or how unique it is for a fighter to lose that way, he LOST because he was taken down and his arm broke from the fall. His arm broke as a result of the takedown, that's why Coleman got a W and Shogun got a L.
> 
> ...


everythings an opinion or else its a religion. 

and i disagree with your opinion. 

saying colemans takedown caused the break is a disengenous argument. you are identifying a long term cause in the context of that injury. 

the* critical issue* wasnt the takedown, it was the landing. saying colemans takedown caused the landing too is short sighted. sure shogun made a mistake in how he caught himself but that mistake wouldnt cause that injury 99 times out of 100. 

put it another way...how would you insure against it ever happening again.........dont fight coleman? retire from mma? ban takedowns? no. of course not. it was an irrelevant freak injury.

your argument makes about as much sense as ...

dont fight mma as its a root cause of freak elbow injuries. 
dont agree to fight coleman...
dont stare out coleman...
dont grapple with coleman...
dont get taken down by coleman...
dont land wrong...

non of these things caused the injury. bad luck did.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Don't get punched in the face cause you might get knocked out. Is this a freak injury? The cause of the knockout is the punch in the face, does that mean that everyone who has ever been knocked out plain out had a freak injury?

The casue of Shogun's arm breaking was him falling from the takedown.

You have 0 point and 0 fact and 0 anything in this debate. Shogun has a LOSS on his record casue he broke his arm falling from a Coleman takedown. Coleman's takedown is the reason he fell, and the reason he broke is arm is becasue he fell. It's not about "how often", it's about IT DID. How often has Machida been knocked out? He's been punched countless times in his career, but he was knocked down and thrown for a loop with Shogun's 1 punch. That's 1 punch out of what, 100 that he's taken in his career, or more? That 1 punc out of 100 hurt him, does that make the 1 punch a freak injury, freak accident? No, it doesn't, cause the punch caused the knockout, the same way Coleman's takedown made Shogun fall to the ground and break his arm. He would not have fell if it was not for the takedown. Shogun has been taken down many many times in his career the same way Machida was hit many many times in his career, it doesn't mean that because Machida gets knocked out by 1 punch out of many, or Shogun gets hurt from one takedown out of many, the fact is IT HAPPENED and was CAUSED by the root effect (the punch and the takedown).

Coleman did a technique used in MMA called a Takedown, and that Takedown lead to Shogun breaking his arm. That's a fact, and as such, It is Coleman's take down that caused the arm break. You cannot dispute this no matter how hard you try, it is IMPOSSIBLE, cause you are trying to disprove FACT. 

It's common sense, it really is.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

VincePierce said:


> everythings an opinion or else its a religion.
> 
> and i disagree with your opinion.
> 
> ...


Look at the bolded part. That's why it's not a freak accident. Corey Hill's leg break was a true freak accident. In Shogun's case you can't really call it a freak accident, more like a mistake. Never is it okay to land on your elbow directly, that's how it dislocates. He messed up and landed on his elbow, can't blame nature for that, only Shogun.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

i am disputing it. 

i am telling you that if someone takes you down you have a choice in how you land. you do not simply ''fall''.

if someone punches you in the face then of course if they knock you out you have no choice in that. 

however...if someone punches you in the face and you happen to fall wrong and die then that is a freak accident. of course it is. 

if someone fumbles a takedown and in landing you make a mistake that 99 times out of a 100 would not be a problem and that one time it is....thats a freak accident. 

all the stuff you are saying to me is just a misunderstanding of cause and effect. the crux of your argument is that colemans win via takedown tko was due to coleman. of course it wasnt. it was a frikken takedown. how many takedown in mma history have resulted in that injury?

on the otherhand blaming shogun for posting is also a bit much. again how ofter does that injury happen. it doesnt. 

if i give a child a dart and he throws it against a door as someone comes in the room and bouncing off a door it hits bullseye on the board does that count? of course it does. the record stands. 

now you can argue that its the result of the childs expertise that he hit bullseye without even aiming but its just dumb luck.

anyone can get a hole in one on paper. theres always a statistical opportunity. 

but coleman didnt just get a random hole in one. he wasnt even aiming for one.

if you were play fighting and someone knocked you out thats on them.

if they went for your legs and you broke your elbow like that landing funny thats not on them. 

its not really on you either.

its a freak accident.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Well, takedowns have been used to finish fights, this is just one of those finishes. Your listing examples that support your argument, but example that also don't apply to the particular instance your arguing. You're saying that because of the rarity of the stoppage that it shouldn't count against him, which is kinda silly.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> Well, takedowns have been used to finish fights, this is just one of those finishes. Your listing examples that support your argument, but example that also don't apply to the particular instance your arguing. You're saying that because of the rarity of the stoppage that it shouldn't count against him, which is kinda silly.


we disagree. live with it. i dont really see how we can further the discussion as we both know what we think and there doesnt seem to be anything open minded about the discourse. 

the takedown wasnt used to finish the fight. the way shogun landed happened to result in the fight being stopped. theres a massive difference. 

i dont deal in certainties as they are usually not backed by reason. i didnt deny him the record or say i wanted the rules changed. everything that happen in mma happens within the context of combat, and has to be OFFICIALLY viewed as ''with intent'' even if its not intentional. if it was football it would be looked at as a freak, if it was almost any other sport it would be looked at as a freak, likewise if you tripped and that happened. even if someone tripped you, its a freak accident. and its silly to take a freak accident like that and use it as evidence against shogun. 

it has no bearing on the rest of his career. the result of the injury itself is 1000x times more relevant than the cause of it.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

It's a fact that Coleman's takedown broke Shogun's arm. It's an absolute fact. The whole reaosn Shogun fell was cause of the takedown, the whole reason Shogun's arm broke was cause he fell.

Shogun has a LOSS on his record, an official loss, becasue Coleman did a technique used in MMA, and it caused Shogun to break his arm. How often that happens has no bearing whatsoever that it is a FACT that the takedown was the root cause for Shogun breaking his arm.

I will not continue to debate with you on this casue you are trying to dsipute fact, which you cannot do, and it is making you look extremely silly. This is as silly as me trying to tell you that gravity does exist, and you trying to say "no, it does not", casue both are FACTS that no matter how hard you try, you cannot dispute it if you use logic and common sense, two things that are lacking in your debate at the moment.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

M.C said:


> It's a fact that Coleman's takedown broke Shogun's arm. It's an absolute fact. The whole reaosn Shogun fell was cause of the takedown, the whole reason Shogun's arm broke was cause he fell.
> 
> Shogun has a LOSS on his record, an official loss, *becasue *Coleman did a technique used in MMA, and it caused Shogun to break his arm. How often that happens has no bearing whatsoever that it is a FACT that the takedown was the root cause for Shogun breaking his arm.
> 
> I will not continue to debate with you on this *casue *you are trying to dsipute fact, which you cannot do, and it is making you look extremely silly. This is as silly as me trying to tell you that gravity does exist, and you trying to say "no, it does not", *casue *both are FACTS that no matter how hard you try, you cannot dispute it if you use logic and common sense, two things that are lacking in your debate at the moment.


considering your whole argument is based on the premise of cause and effect you could at least spell the word right 

did my argument cause you to mispell cause or was it your inability to rationally evaluate and counter it, that led to frustration and inevitable typos. or is it just a freak occurrence with no relevance to the words you are countering or your general wordmanship. 










youve caused this to happen to me with your continued lack of understanding of the law of random occurrences. ^^^ victory to you via argument > cranium implosion. 

il be back when i go and talk to someone logical for half an hour. 

if im not banned you sneaky mods.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)




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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

That's enough now.

I don't feel like babysitting this thread.

Stay on topic or leave the thread, this is a verbal warning to everyone.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

VincePierce said:


> i am disputing it.
> 
> i am telling you that if someone takes you down you have a choice in how you land. you do not simply ''fall''.
> 
> ...


Your posts would be easier to read if you used capitalization here and there. Thanks.

Do some of you guys need a Midol and a glass of white zinfandel to keep you on topic?


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Ladies ladies, please let's don't get all sweaty and worked up and stain our petticoats.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

swpthleg said:


> Ladies ladies, please let's don't get all sweaty and worked up and stain our petticoats.


my bad i was editing. i didnt see the warning. it not easy communicating with someone whos concept of rational debate is is a friken movie character.

ive been civil throughout, despite the witless fail fodder ive had to deal with. im done with it.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

anyhow. i think shogun will win.

but...if Rashad does get past Shogun i could see obviously a Rampage fight, a Jones fight or a Machida fight put him in serious jeopardy. 

Its not so much that he cant win these (although i agree that Machida is a terrible match up for him), its the fact that he is very vulnerable against this class of fighter. 

Stylistic conflicts aside i think the division clearly has a lot of guys who are approaching parity. The X factor is Bones, Bader and Davis. All of these guys would pose serious issues for Rashad. Shogun is of course still a worthy champion, but i agree his fight with Evans will tell us a lot.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

guys may i make a suggestion?

you both have been warned, if you don't shh you will get in trouble.

by all means continue your argument... through PMs.

no more in this thread pls


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

VincePierce said:


> *anyhow. i think shogun will win.*





VincePierce said:


> everythings an opinion or else its a religion.
> 
> and i disagree with your opinion.
> 
> ...


Ya think?!


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

I'm closing this thread if there is 1 more off topic post.

Get back on topic or it is closed, and infractions will be handed out. No more of this. Do not reply to this post, get back on topic or the thread goes.


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## VincePierce (Oct 10, 2010)

one thing i do respect about rashad is his ability to gameplan. thats why i think id give him an advantage over most of the chasing pack. obviously machida is a hard match up and the 3 guys coming up through the ranks may present legit issues further down the line. i just dont see him beating shogun.

i concede hes got a chance but its gonna define him as a fighter if he pulls it off.

the other thing is ...to paraphrase what nog once said ''i played his game for 20 minutes, he lost in mine in 20 seconds''. it takes one burst, the like of which evans survived from rampage to finish him. i do respect him and i even think his record is bordering on great, but somewhere during the fight i see shogun connecting and past that point i dont know that evans can withstand it. 

it remains to be seen of course. il be the first to lmao if im wrong.

on history and the rua record, il take a chance on shogun rd 1, but il be the first to take my hat of to evans if he wins.

for me personally i guess the bottom line is this fight will in a lot of ways define rashad. if he can beat shogun id give him a fair chance against the admittedly dangerous guys coming up and even machida. i dont know that id bet on him but id certainly look at him different.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Okay, seriously, if this shit happens to go off again everyone involved is getting suspended for a week. I just deleted *FOUR ******* PAGES* of you two fighting. I'm going to say this once as clearly as possible. After that, your posting privlidges are in your own hands. You've both been addressed by PM and I seriously hope I don't have to do anything more.

*KNOCK. IT. OFF.*


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## TheOldAssassin (Sep 17, 2010)

SpoKen said:


> Okay, the only reason Machida won is because Rashad didn't use any wrestling. If he used wrestling Rashad would have beat Machida all day long.



While I don't necessarily agree here, if Rashad had used his wrestling he would have certainly run Machida to a decision. After all, David Heath - *David Heath!* - did.

But the fact remains: Rashad is way, way too small for 205 - and don't bring up the fact that he has only one loss at 205. Look at what he has had to resort to in order to get his LHW wins - and he hasn't had a first-round-stoppage win since *2004!* Hey, even 185 is pushing the envelope.

At 170, Rashad would be the new Shonie Carter (they're actually the same size, in the real world) - and knowing him, he'd probably start dressing like Shonie too.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

If Rashad gets past Shogun he and Bones Jones won't fight since they train together at Jackson's.

Shogun vs. Jones on the other hand would be a sick fight, especially if Jones keeps it standing, I could see him jabbing and out wrestling Shogun all the way to a five round UD.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

TheOldAssassin said:


> While I don't necessarily agree here, if Rashad had used his wrestling he would have certainly run Machida to a decision. After all, David Heath - *David Heath!* - did.
> 
> But the fact remains: Rashad is way, way too small for 205 - and don't bring up the fact that he has only one loss at 205. Look at what he has had to resort to in order to get his LHW wins - and *he hasn't had a first-round-stoppage win since 2004!* Hey, even 185 is pushing the envelope.
> 
> At 170, Rashad would be the new Shonie Carter (they're actually the same size, in the real world) - and knowing him, he'd probably start dressing like Shonie too.


I agree and the same with rampage he hasn't had a first Rd. stoppage since 2008.

machida hasn't had one since early 2009

forrest hasn't had one since 2005

bader hasn't had one since 2008

they should all move weight-classes because you should only fight in the LHW Div. if you can consistently get first round stoppages.......


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

> Shogun vs. Jones on the other hand would be a sick fight, especially if Jones keeps it standing, I could see him jabbing and out wrestling Shogun all the way to a five round UD.


Can you imagine what Rua's kicks would do to Bones' match-stick legs? With Bones' low wide stance, it would be easy pickings. Those kicks land seriously hard even when his opponent shoots a takedown when Shogun throws.

I think Jones would batter Rashad though, I doubt Rashad can handle him on the ground and he won't know how to get past his long reach to land anything significant stood up.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

It all makes sense to me now. Now that Machida no longer has the belt Anderson Silva can take it. I'd rather see "The Spider" vs "Shogun", but I would also very much like to see A. Silva KTFO Rashad. Oh that would be sweet. Spoken where are you...lolz! Time for a debate...


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

xeberus said:


>


................this is how you save a thread.

if rashad gets past shogun, and i think there is a good chance it happens, then the div will once again be wide open. bader, jones, and davis are just outside being in contention and silva, cane, cantwell, gustavson are trying to climb.


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## UFC on VHS (Dec 16, 2008)

I think that in a 3 round fight I would give the edge to Rashad over Shogun but in a 5 round title fight im not convinced that Rashad can withstand Shogun. Sooner or later Rashad will get clipped (if not early) and while Rashad does not have a horrible chin imo he does not have the greatest. That being said I think the fight is alot closer then people are claiming. Mark Coleman has shown us Shogun's weakness I have said that since UFC 93 and people have been calling me stupid since then.

Please don't bring up Kevin Randleman as proof of Shogun being able to handle wrestlers im a fan of Shogun but im not delusional. Frank Mir makes dumb mistakes, Cro Cop is shot, Mark Coleman is just old, Chael Sonnen has never heard of a traingle, Overeem hasn't beat anyone and Shogun has shot knees and bad TDD. BTW Rashad will not be easy to submit.

As for anyone beating Rashad I think Lyoto has his number I really just don't see Evan's beating him. Lyoto is what Rampage is to Chuck. Rashad's kripto.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Thelegend said:


> ................this is how you save a thread.
> 
> if rashad gets past shogun, and i think there is a good chance it happens, then the div will once again be wide open. bader, jones, and davis are just outside being in contention and silva, cane, cantwell, gustavson are trying to climb.


i think most of the world's problems could be solved by a stiff drink and girls taking off their clothes :thumb02:


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

If he gets past shogun he'll have to face Rampage again and eventually machida...

I see another KO loss in rashads near future.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

xeberus said:


> i think most of the world's problems could be solved by a stiff drink and girls taking off their clothes :thumb02:


That's another thread, for in the lounge.


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## bjjmatmop (Nov 29, 2010)

It's crazy right now in Light Heavy Weight. On any night anyone in the top 10 can take out anyone else in the top 10. The 205 belt is going to get passed around more than a joint at a Doobie Brothers concert for quite a while. Should make for some great 5 round fights!


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

Every fighter has a weakness, and styles make fights.

Machida is the worst possible matchup for Rashad because Machida can stuff Rashad's takedowns.
Shogun is the worst possible matchup for Machida because of his aggressive and technical striking. This doesn't give Machida time to be "elusive" and forces him to fight instinctively, which is is his worst weakness.
Rashad is a bad matchup for Shogun because of his wrestling and top control, which is something that Shogun struggles with. However, Rashad is also pretty disadvantaged as his chin can't hold up to Rua's strikes and he's undersized at 205 and not as strong.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Ari said:


> Every fighter has a weakness, and styles make fights.
> 
> Machida is the worst possible matchup for Rashad because Machida can stuff Rashad's takedowns.
> Shogun is the worst possible matchup for Machida because of his aggressive and technical striking. This doesn't give Machida time to be "elusive" and forces him to fight instinctively, which is is his worst weakness.
> Rashad is a bad matchup for Shogun because of his wrestling and top control, which is something that Shogun struggles with. However, Rashad is also pretty disadvantaged as his chin can't hold up to Rua's strikes and he's undersized at 205 and not as strong.


I wish I could have said it this way earlier. Pretty spot on.


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