# Transgender fighter Fallon Fox's MMA license under review



## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

> A female transgender MMA fighter is under investigation by the Florida State Boxing Commission.
> 
> "Our department is currently investigating allegations pertaining to the information provided on the application," said Sandi Copes Poreda, a spokeswoman for the commission, which licensed Fallon Fox to fight as a woman.
> 
> ...


http://www.mmajunkie.com/news/2013/03/transgender-fighter-fallon-foxs-mma-license-under-review


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## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

I dont think its the same as being born a female, they were a man until 2006 and got snipped, they spent at least 30 years being, developing growing as a man, I think there is a big disadvantage to the natural women..IMO.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

locnott said:


> I dont think its the same as being born a female, they were a man until 2006 and got snipped, they spent at least 30 years being, developing growing as a man, I think there is a big disadvantage to the natural women..IMO.


Agreed. Im all for people doing what ever makes them happy in life but A dude, who is now a woman, fighting other women, is not fair IMO.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

120,000%......Jesus that's a lot.

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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Killz said:


> Agreed. Im all for people doing what ever makes them happy in life but A dude, who is now a woman, fighting other women, is not fair IMO.


Yeah I figured this would spark a debate. With WMMA on the rise I figured we would have a case like this sooner or later. I wonder what her testosterone levels are compared to the average woman?


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

OU said:


> Yeah I figured this would spark a debate. With WMMA on the rise I figured we would have a case like this sooner or later. I wonder what her testosterone levels are compared to the average woman?


Even iof they are in line with other womens, the fact that she used to be a man means she will have the frame and muscular DNA of a man. A 145lb man will 9 times out of 10 be stronger than a 145lb woman and no amount of hormonal therapy will stop that.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Killz said:


> Even iof they are in line with other womens, the fact that she used to be a man means she will have the frame and muscular DNA of a man. A 145lb man will 9 times out of 10 be stronger than a 145lb woman and no amount of hormonal therapy will stop that.


I wonder how her levels compare to Cyborg? I bet they are lower, she is weaker and she would get mauled by Cyborg lol

No but seriously I think it's pretty interesting. Obviously she couldn't compete in men's MMA. Do you guys remember this same kind of thing with a sprinter not too long ago? This seems to be a very similar issue.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1272210-caster-semenya-forces-olympic-community-to-rethink-gender


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

this will spark a debate for sure with certain members.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Stun Gun said:


> this will spark a debate for sure with certain members.


I think there is room here for a debate. But obviously it could get ugly pretty quickly. It's been a subject of debate in other sports, like the sprinter I mentioned. But with MMA being all about physical contact I can't imagine a transgendered woman getting cleared to fight in WMMA. I don't the UFC is ready to even discuss this kind of issue. I'm sure Dana wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole right now.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Luckly Dana and the Fertitas have already plans to introduce TMMA, so these confusion will soon be over.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> Luckly Dana an the Fertitas have already plans to introduce TMMA, so these confusion will be soon over.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


I wonder how Invicta would handle this?


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> Luckly Dana and the Fertitas have already plans to introduce TMMA, so these confusion will soon be over.


come on now. No need


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

Ill be keeping a close eye on this topic. Anyone starts with the derogatory comments etc and infractions will be dished out. 

Also OU, I remember the sprinter. Was she the South African who was blitzing all of the competition?


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

I want to see more details on this case. Like facts that play an important role. If her levels are fine, I don't see an issue.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Killz said:


> Ill be keeping a close eye on this topic. Anyone starts with the derogatory comments etc and infractions will be dished out.
> 
> *Also OU, I remember the sprinter. Was she the South African who was blitzing all of the competition?*
> 
> ...


Yep, I posted 1 link about her. But it was a major story at the time and it was a story that lasted awhile. I just thought it was similar since in that case it was also about physical advantages.
I wasn't trying to post a subject that would turn ugly. I was just posting because this is an issue that was bound to come up sooner or later with the rise of WMMA. I think there is room for respectful debate.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

There is plently of room for debate without being hostile, but for some members im sure it will be hard for them


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## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

I wonder if the WNBA would let Kobe play for them if he decided he wanted to be a "transgender" person ????


Probably not. Simply would not be fair.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

locnott said:


> I wonder if the WNBA would let Kobe play for them if he decided he wanted to be a "transgender" person ????
> 
> 
> Probably not. Simply would not be fair.


terrible argument


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

locnott said:


> I wonder if the WNBA would let Kobe play for them if he decided he wanted to be a "transgender" person ????
> 
> 
> Probably not. Simply would not be fair.


I'd pay to watch that. Probably the only scenario I'd watch the WNBA.

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## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

Life B Ez said:


> I'd pay to watch that. Probably the only scenario I'd watch the WNBA.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


It would defiantly help their ratings..


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

I'm assuming all of you are aware of the movie Juwanna Mann. It just instantly comes to mind with the silly Kobe comment.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

OU said:


> Yep, I posted 1 link about her. But it was a major story at the time and it was a story that lasted awhile. I just thought it was similar since in that case it was also about physical advantages.
> I wasn't trying to post a subject that would turn ugly. I was just posting because this is an issue that was bound to come up sooner or later with the rise of WMMA. I think there is room for respectful debate.


Didn't she turn out to actually not be transgender in the end? Sorry I can't get on your link off my phone.

I remember it being a horribly unfair scenario in the way that she was treated.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Killz said:


> Didn't she turn out to actually not be transgender in the end? Sorry I can't get on your link off my phone.
> 
> I remember it being a horribly unfair scenario in the way that she was treated.
> 
> ...


I'm really not sure what the results were, it's tough to tell since there was so much made about how it was handled and her rights to privacy and all that. But seeing how she was allowed to keep competing I would guess she turned out not to be transgendered. But I think there was some kind of medical condition, but alot of that stuff is private.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Stun Gun said:


> come on now. No need


No need what, man?


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Muscle growth is heavily influenced by hormones so if her hormone levels are the same as a woman's I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to fight other women.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Muscle growth is heavily influenced by hormones so if her hormone levels are the same as a woman's I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to fight other women.


I'd argue that a year or two of having hormone levels of a woman does not make equal as she spent 30 years with hormone levels of a man. I doubt that benefit would just disappear.

I'm speaking purely from a 'not knowing much about this topic' point of view


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Killz said:


> I'd argue that a year or two of having hormone levels of a woman does not make equal as she spent 30 years with hormone levels of a man. I doubt that benefit would just disappear.
> 
> I'm speaking purely from a 'not knowing much about this topic' point of view
> 
> ...


Yeah I'm not very sure either, since I'm not educated on this subject or all the details. But wouldn't any hormone or muscular advantage she had disappear over time if her levels were lowered? I would think the body would adapt and she would no longer be able to maintain the same advantages. But again, I'm ignorant on the subject and just thinking out loud.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Killz said:


> I'd argue that a year or two of having hormone levels of a woman does not make equal as she spent 30 years with hormone levels of a man. I doubt that benefit would just disappear.
> 
> I'm speaking purely from a 'not knowing much about this topic' point of view
> 
> ...


I think she'd probably always have a slight advantage over other women but if her passport and hormones say "female" I don't think anyone has the right to tell her she can't compete.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

If "she" has an advantage in strength or whatever because of the past, then "she" should not be fighting other women. If there is no such advantage, then I see no problem with it.

It will all come down to being able to provide evidence on the subject to tell if it's fair or not. It'll be interesting to see where it goes.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

This is horrible. He shouldn't be allowed to compete with women in a professional sport were strength plays such a big role. What he needs to do is grow some balls and compete with men his own size.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> I think she'd probably always have a slight advantage over other women but if her passport and hormones say "female" I don't think anyone has the right to tell her she can't compete.


It is a different category anyway. This person was born a man. That is enough reason to prevent this person to fight against women, IMO. Maybe we could see fighters classified only by their strengh in the future, regardless their gender, but for now I can't aprove a TG to fight as a woman.


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## dlxrevolution (Jul 16, 2009)

Killz said:


> Even iof they are in line with other womens, the fact that she used to be a man means she will have the frame and muscular DNA of a man. A 145lb man will 9 times out of 10 be stronger than a 145lb woman and no amount of hormonal therapy will stop that.


I'm with this.

The fact that she(he) was born a male and has the DNA and molecular make-up of a male is enough to deduce that she(he) should be fighting in Men's MMA and not other woman, being that the rest of the woman didn't come from those same circumstances. Regardless of what surgeries you may have went through, you simply can't change your cellular structure and how you were born.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

vilify said:


> This is horrible. He shouldn't be allowed to compete with women in a professional sport were strength plays such a big role. What he needs to do is grow some balls and compete with men his own size.


Im pretty sure 'growing balls' is the exact opposite of what she wants to do.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

FYI this is her:










and here is video highlight: http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_areijo56


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## Dumbfighter (Dec 30, 2011)

Muscle growth is influenced by testeron's levels but if her testoteron's levels are the same as other women I don't think there is any significant advantage . Just look at Overeem without juice ...


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## evilappendix (Jan 4, 2007)

This is a tricky one for sure. One could argue he has undergone all the surgery and hormonal treatments to be considered "female" but the guy did it in his 30's. If I recall correctly, that runner had done this at a much younger age, maybe even birth. I think she had been born a hermaphrodite so when it came time to test for chromosomes, she still had a y floating around(I may be way off on this though). This guy sounds like he was born all man and therefore it was a personal choice rather than a medical treatment for a birth defect. The real issue with this would be the theoretical flood gate that could be opened in any competitive sport that is segregated by gender. I'm not saying guys are going to be lopping junk off left and right to be the next Wmma star or Olympic hopeful but plenty of folks will do whatever it takes to gain an edge, especially in competitive sports... 

So, on that note:

In before Chael announces his bid to challenge Ronda once Jones beats him out of the men's division entirely! :laugh:


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

Clearly we need a male and female transgender UFC weightclass now. Why shouldn't transgenders be able to fight in the UFC if they want to? I'm all for shelling out 60 bucks for the next PPV headlined by Fallon. It would be a victory for all transgenderers everywhere. 

Anybody who disagrees with me is either not a true MMA fan or just doesn't appreciate the transgender MMA scene or is biased against transgender folks.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

St.Paul Guy said:


> Clearly we need a male and female transgender UFC weightclass now. Why shouldn't transgenders be able to fight in the UFC if they want to? I'm all for shelling out 60 bucks for the next PPV headlined by Fallon. It would be a victory for all transgenderers everywhere.
> 
> Anybody who disagrees with me is either not a true MMA fan or just doesn't appreciate the transgender MMA scene or is biased against transgender folks.


trol right hur


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

I'm not really sure what the big deal is. Even the IOC would let her compete as a woman. And the Olympics has a long history of being well behind the times when it comes to the sex of athletes.

She got her sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) about seven years ago. I think the IOC requires a two year period of hormone treatment after SRS. So, yeah... much ado about nothing.


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

There is always gonna be that doubt floating over her head when it comes to Commissions licensing her for fights, even if it turns out she can continue fighting, whether licensing in the future is successful or not, all victories will be questioned and scrutinized.

Whether this blows over or not, she'll never have a legitimate career in the eyes of many.

This is a legal and moral grey area to say the least.


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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

LizaG said:


> There is always gonna be that doubt floating over her head when it comes to Commissions licensing her for fights, even if it turns out she can continue fighting, whether licensing in the future is successful or not, all victories will be questioned and scrutinized.
> 
> Whether this blows over or not, she'll never have a legitimate career in the eyes of many.
> 
> This is a legal and moral grey area to say the least.


Yeah I doubt the UFC would want any part of this right now. I don't think Invicta would either. But I'm sure this won't be the last case like this.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Killz said:


> Im pretty sure 'growing balls' is the exact opposite of what she wants to do.


Bwhahahahahaha would rep if possible.

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## OU (Sep 26, 2012)

Check out this bizarre case right here.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MedicalMysteries/story?id=5465752&page=1


> Atwood is not a freak -- nor is she half-man, half-woman. But her DNA says she's a man. That's because she has male chromosomes, an X and a Y, instead of two Xs, like most females. It's a disorder of sexual development in the womb called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, or AIS. It can be passed down through the mother or occur as a spontaneous mutation.
> 
> "There are probably about seven-and-a-half thousand people, women, in the U.S. with the condition," said Dr. Charmian Quigley, a pediatric endocrinologist.
> 
> ...


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

OU said:


> Check out this bizarre case right here.
> http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MedicalMysteries/story?id=5465752&page=1


In the last Olympics (1996 I think) that used a genetic screening, eight women failed. Seven of the eight had AIS, and the last had 5-ARD. All of them were allowed to compete.

Interestingly enough, everyone who has ever failed an Olympic sexual verification test was intersex, never a man just pretending to be a woman, which is what the tests were meant to catch.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

It's a real grey area. I hope for her sake, and others like her they get this sorted out with the least amount of embarrassment possible.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Killz said:


> It's a real grey area. I hope for her sake, and others like her they get this sorted out with the least amount of embarrassment possible.


It's an awkward situation, but because it's a grey area she should be out, IMO. 
I think to allow her to compete against normal women is a mistake similar to the one that allowed Oscar Pistorius paraolympic athlete (and now killer of his beautiful girlfriend - sad) to compete in the Olympics against normal men. Blades performance benefits discussions apart, Oscar would never have his performance affected by a sore toe, twisted ankle, blisters or cramps. Unfair from the start.
She is not a woman because the ID says that. She is an emasculated man. Period. Aside that, we don't know for sure how this affect its performance to allow her to compete in any official sport against women. And the legitimacy of her wins will always be contested.
Sorry you love Jet Fighters and you'd love to join the Air Force, but it requires 20/20 vision. Many can't and many dreams are shot down because of that. Facts of life. I would say NO.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

I say no, I'm all for gay rights and I applaud the UFC for having an openly gay fighter main event a PPV. But MMA and any sport that puts the private medical needs of fighters secondary to the integrity of the sport can not and should not allow for transgendered fighters. I would rather see inter-gender fights over allowing for a medical exception this severe. I don't see how in one breath you can demand from fighters natural testosterone levels and refuse medical marijuana claims and then turn around and let someone who has dramatically changed their biochemistry to compete against other fighters. Finally their are several different types and degrees of transgenderism in the world, their are a million Hijra's in the world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia) if one of them wanted to fight do they qualify as male or female?


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

NO NO NO. This is not right. I'm an open minded person. I think almost everyone should follow their heart. If your heart says you should be a woman then be a woman. If your heart's desire is to be a fighter, be a fighter.

If your heart says you should become a woman so that you can fight women...... tell your heart to STFU and get some help.







I forgot to quote him but vilify has it exactly right.:thumbsup:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

it dont matter mma has already become a PR freakshow where everyone has to have a chance and be nice its not about who and what is the best any more its about not hurting feelings


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

The association of boxing commissions medical committee has a policy for this already in place.

For male to female transition after puberty:

Sexual reassignment surgery, at least two years of hormone therapy, and a letter from the doctor. All to be reviewed by the commission and the medical board of the ABC.


It's just their policy recommendation, not binding on the commission members. But it is pretty normal for sports. It's practically identical to the policy in the Olympics.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

She's a man. Simple as. That said, if her opponents don't care, then I'm not inclined to care either.


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## math2tor (Dec 17, 2008)

Canadian Psycho said:


> She's a man. Simple as. That said, if her opponents don't care, then I'm not inclined to care either.


agreed.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Regarding Caster Semenya the sprinter she wasn't a tranny, she was intersex. She was born with a vagina and had male testes inside.


I want to see this chick fight Ronda Rousey so we can finally put the debates to rest.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Caster Semenya basically had a birth defect that wasn't in her control. Fallon Fox was born a man and has knocked out five women fighting as a woman. She's misrepresented herself and will never be accepted to a major promotion.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

kantowrestler said:


> Fallon Fox was born a man and has knocked out five women fighting as a woman. She's misrepresented herself and will never be accepted to a major promotion.


I'm curious, how do you feel she has misrepresented herself? Most transsexual people attempt to leave their past behind them when they transition, should she be forced to be different? I understand this is a different environment because she's a fighter, but the bottom line is, she is a woman and shouldn't be treated as anything different.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

She misrepresented herself by claiming to be licensed in CA.
leading FL. to assume she had proven herself qualified to compete as a woman.

I'm curious Cowgirl, in your opinion, would someone like Fallon have any strength advantage over other women her body weight?


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Honestly I think this woman could probably beat Cyborg because she'd have a strength advantage over her. I think the promotion that put on her fight needs to find a replacement in order to save face. This woman will probably loose her license and never fight again in the US.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

oldfan said:


> She misrepresented herself by claiming to be licensed in CA.
> leading FL. to assume she had proven herself qualified to compete as a woman.
> 
> I'm curious Cowgirl, in your opinion, would someone like Fallon have any strength advantage over other women her body weight?


See, I got the feeling that wasn't Kanto's reasoning, which is why I asked . Speaking from experience, any strength advantage you have from being a guy, goes out the window when you start hormone therapy. Consider this, when Fallon started taking hormones, she also began taking an androgen blocker. She was preventing her body from producing testosterone. Again, speaking from experience, that kills the muscle mass, it's like starting all over again. Contrary to popular belief, hormone therapy isn't just about feminizing looks, the only thing it does for that is soften the skin, redistribute some body fat, and of course grow breasts. That's all surface deep, bigger changes happen internally which can't be seen. So, oldfan, to answer your question, no I don't believe there is any strength advantage in this situation. 



kantowrestler said:


> Honestly I think this woman could probably beat Cyborg because she'd have a strength advantage over her. I think the promotion that put on her fight needs to find a replacement in order to save face. This woman will probably loose her license and never fight again in the US.


Why do you think this?


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Fallon fights at 145. This is the perfect fight for cyborg.:thumbsup: make much money


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

yeah he can fight..... he can fight fight 145 men because that is what he is just the defanged and no venom cobra of men


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

UFC_OWNS said:


> yeah he can fight..... he can fight fight 145 men because that is what he is just the defanged and no venom cobra of men


He? who is he? Do you mean Fallon? She can fight at 145 women's division.. oh wait! that's where she belongs!


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Cowgirl said:


> He? who is he? Do you mean Fallon? She can fight at 145 women's division.. oh wait! that's where she belongs!


she is a he, no wait she is not a he she is an it. If I put on a wig and had a couples of tablets i would punch every female fights face through their skull and is that fair? no i don't think so. Your born with a dick that makes you a man to the end and vice versa for women, surgery doesn't change your identity and sex as much as appearance may fool you. Just like thailand ladyboys are not women but freaks


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

vilify said:


> This is horrible. He shouldn't be allowed to compete with women in a professional sport were strength plays such a big role. What he needs to do is grow some balls and compete with men his own size.


This.

I'm so amused by the level of political correctness on this forum .. Oh "she" should be able to do whatever she wants and beat up poor actual women with half her strength lol. Ah political correctness ... It's like watching the emperor's new.clothes in real life every day. You my friend are the brave boy who just shouted the obvious, prepare to be hushed down.

I'm sorry, I don't think an operation makes a man a woman, the idea that it does is an insult to women IMHO and all that they truly are. A post op person is not capable of birthing another human being or feeding an infant strength from her own body, let alone all the other miraculous things women are capable of. All the op makes is, for lack of a better word, a eunuch. If that person is given some synthetic women's hormones and silicon breasts, I'm sorry it's still a eunuch with some cosmetics. And eunuchs would beat the living crap out of most women, heck they were employed as BODYGUARDS in women's harems in medieval times. Just use your eyes and LOOK at this guy people, cyborg looks like a ballerina next to him.

I have compassion for people who feel they need such surgeries etc. and i suppose it's their right to do whatever they want to their own bodies. I draw the line though at accepting this logic when it comes to imposing this ideology on OTHERS against their choice i.e. beating up or competing with women, or having sexual relations with the opposite (previously same) gender without informing them of their status.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

UFC_OWNS said:


> she is a he, no wait she is not a he she is an it. If I put on a wig and had a couples of tablets i would punch every female fights face through their skull and is that fair? no i don't think so. Your born with a dick that makes you a man to the end and vice versa for women, surgery doesn't change your identity and sex as much as appearance may fool you. Just like thailand ladyboys are not women but freaks


Wow.. Wait does this mean we aren't friends then OWNS? There's a lot more to it than simply 'putting on a wig and taking a couple tablets.' Fallon is a woman, just the same as I am a woman.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Cowgirl said:


> Wow.. Wait does this mean we aren't friends then OWNS? There's a lot more to it than simply 'putting on a wig and taking a couple tablets.' Fallon is a woman, just the same as I am a woman.


But you weren't born with a penis were you? or a male physique? Fallon is just another product of a system where feelings come first and reality comes 2nd, is it any coincidence that all of her wins have come by overpowering stoppages and she probably has the chin of a man being harder to Ko as well I don't think anyone has mentioned yet.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

also there's no point of a doctor delivering a baby and saying it's a boy/girl if we can all of sudden choose what gender we really are, no the sperm that you evolved from says your this gender and you will never be able to change it live with it.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

UFC_OWNS said:


> But you weren't born with a penis were you? or a male physique? Fallon is just another product of a system where feelings come first and reality comes 2nd, is it any coincidence that all of her wins have come by overpowering stoppages and she probably has the chin of a man being harder to Ko as well I don't think anyone has mentioned yet.


It's unfortunate that you feel this way, however, as I already stated from experience, there is a significant change once you start hormone therapy. The androgen blocker makes things fair, if not more in favour of biological women as they naturally have testosterone in their body. The hormones do far more than just feminize certain features, it changes your biological patterns as well. 

For what it's worth OWNS, yes, I was born with a penis. My name used to be Dylan, now it's Daphne.



> also there's no point of a doctor delivering a baby and saying it's a boy/girl if we can all of sudden choose what gender we really are, no the sperm that you evolved from says your this gender and you will never be able to change it live with it.


You are mistaken here. You appear to be confusing gender with sex. Gender is a lot more fluid than sex. Sex is simply your reproductive organs, gender is so much more than that.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Cowgirl said:


> It's unfortunate that you feel this way, however, as I already stated from experience, there is a significant change once you start hormone therapy. The androgen blocker makes things fair, if not more in favour of biological women as they naturally have testosterone in their body. The hormones do far more than just feminize certain features, it changes your biological patterns as well.
> 
> For what it's worth OWNS, yes, I was born with a penis. My name used to be Dylan, now it's Daphne.
> 
> ...


your shitting me, well i cant say i saw that one coming i didn't know it hit so close to home sorry for that incidental expose


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

UFC_OWNS said:


> your shitting me, well i cant say i saw that one coming i didn't know it hit so close to home sorry for that incidental expose


It's not exactly the forum's biggest secret lol. No worries though 

Anyways, now that my dirty laundry has been aired, so to speak, back on topic. Fallon should have disclosed her medical history to her opponents simply because the majority of people still feel there is an unfair advantage. At least with full disclosure, these other women have no excuses. However, full disclosure is also not likely simply because I think she knew the reaction would be something like this.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

Liddellianenko said:


> This.
> 
> I'm so amused by the level of political correctness on this forum .. Oh "she" should be able to do whatever she wants and beat up poor actual women with half her strength lol. Ah political correctness ... It's like watching the emperor's new.clothes in real life every day. You my friend are the brave boy who just shouted the obvious, prepare to be hushed down.
> 
> ...


This is more about you having different values, rather than talking about the actual topic. Ignorance is a tricky thing


----------



## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Cowgirl said:


> It's not exactly the forum's biggest secret lol. No worries though
> 
> Anyways, now that my dirty laundry has been aired, so to speak, back on topic. Fallon should have disclosed her medical history to her opponents simply because the majority of people still feel there is an unfair advantage. At least with full disclosure, these other women have no excuses. However, full disclosure is also not likely simply because I think she knew the reaction would be something like this.


Sorry i wasn't aware either, so I hope I didn't offend you with the somewhat harsh directness of my post. You're a polite and likeable poster, so it's nothing personal.

Still, disclosure or not, do you think it'd be fair for you to compete in WMMA against say LizaG, or for her to be forced to compete with you if she wanted to compete in the women's div? Honestly, how much do you bench on a good day?

IMO the human gender system is a lot more complex than a handful of hormones, the fact that surgery can't replicate reproductive ability is only one small hint of that. It's not as simple as an Androgen inhibitor makes everything even. The fact that Fallon blatantly overpowers her / his opponents and walks through their punches to KO them in less than a round makes me seriously doubt your claim that the inhibitors are skewing things "in favor of" her unconcious opponents.

I think an all transgender org would be more fair, it'd just be a question of a market or viewers for it.


----------



## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

> Ask the Fight Doc: What are your thoughts on transgender MMA fighters?
> 
> MMAjunkie.com medical columnist and consultant Dr. Johnny Benjamin has no problem waxing poetic on a variety of MMA-related topics. But when it comes to transgender fighters in the sport, his opinions are rather limited.
> 
> ...


Here's an interesting take.

I'm in the grey with this topic. I respect and fully support Fallon for her life choices, as she cannot control this. But it's tricky too because of advantages


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Stun Gun said:


> This is more about you having different values, rather than talking about the actual topic. Ignorance is a tricky thing


Values ARE the topic though, the values of having transgender individuals in WOMEN's mma, and that brings into discussion the logic and categorization of transgender itself. 

I'm not pushing my values on others, but I do think they should be discussed, as I'm willing to hear counterpoints to it. Because this is not about a person's individual values, which they are free to choose. It is a question of imposing those values on a sport, it's legislators, and viewers as a whole.

I will try to be nicer about it though as I understand it can be a personal topic for some, and Cowgirl has always been polite so it's only right for me to return to courtesy, even if we disagree on some things.


----------



## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

well this took a turn


----------



## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

Liddellianenko said:


> Values ARE the topic though, the values of transgender individuals in WOMEN's mma, and that brings into discussion the logic and categorization of transgender itself.
> 
> I'm not pushing my values on others, but I do think they should be discussed, as I'm willing to hear counterpoints to it. Because this is not about a person's individual values, which they are free to choose. It is a question of imposing those values on a sport, it's legislators, and viewers as a whole.
> 
> I will try to be nicer about it though as I understand it can be a personal topic for some, and Cowgirl has always been polite so it's only right for me to return to courtesy at least, even if we disagree on some things.


I'm glad that you're able to stay respectful even though you have much different values with Cowgirl for example. 

I just felt your post got off topic a bit, you started with something that made sense but near the end I felt it could have been said in a better method perhaps?


----------



## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Stun Gun said:


> I'm glad that you're able to stay respectful even though you have much different values with Cowgirl for example.
> 
> I just felt your post got off topic a bit, you started with something that made sense but near the end I felt it could have been said in a better method perhaps?


I suppose I could at that, will see if I can edit it nicer.


----------



## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

Also did you see the article I posted from MMA Junkie?


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

HexRei said:


> well this took a turn


that was my fault i didnt know any of cowgirls personal life would be exposed


----------



## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Stun Gun said:


> Also did you see the article I posted from MMA Junkie?


Yes, and it's a good article, I agree with it. As I said earlier, the idea that a few hormones will even out everything or make everything "the same" is unsupported by true science or research. 

If they did delve into it in an unbiased way, I'm positive the results would only confirm what our eyes and common sense can already see, that there are still obvious differences. Bone density and structure, organ structure, blood capacity, muscle structure and so on, let alone unrelated non-athletic things like reproductive ability, breastfeeding ability etc. That some isolated factors may be tweaked up or down (like ok maybe a single hormone or two like testosterone might be lowered artificially) is fine, but to pretend that ALL of those hundreds of complex factors are somehow magically taken care of, I just don't see it. 

Watch Fallon's fights for yourself, that's as close to real facts and evidence as you'll get on this. I can't see how anyone can call that fair or "tilted" in Fallon's opponents' favor.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

Cowgirl said:


> See, I got the feeling that wasn't Kanto's reasoning, which is why I asked . Speaking from experience, any strength advantage you have from being a guy, goes out the window when you start hormone therapy. Consider this, when Fallon started taking hormones, she also began taking an androgen blocker. She was preventing her body from producing testosterone. Again, speaking from experience, that kills the muscle mass, it's like starting all over again. Contrary to popular belief, hormone therapy isn't just about feminizing looks, the only thing it does for that is soften the skin, redistribute some body fat, and of course grow breasts. That's all surface deep, bigger changes happen internally which can't be seen. So, oldfan, to answer your question, no I don't believe there is any strength advantage in this situation.



As a person who has gone through this Daph has a pretty good point of reference as to the benefits/loss of physical strength. Whilst not Scientific proven, she has a better understanding than anybody as to how much advantage a transgender fighter would or wouldnt have over a naturally born female fighter.

For me, Im on the fence about whether I am, or am not for transgender females fighting other females in a sport that is predominantly about strength and causing damage to your opponent. That being said, 'IF' a licensing body grants her a licence, who am I to say whether she should or shouldn't be allowed to fight.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out.


----------



## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

she was already granted a licence and won a bunch of fights. so really its a matter of the review process. I personally don't think its a major problem. she won't be beating Ronda anytime soon (if she could cut to 135)


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

HexRei said:


> she was already granted a licence and won 2 fights. so really its a matter of the review process


Yeah, that's what I meant, if they decide to let her keep her licence now that everything has come out.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Killz said:


> Yeah, that's what I meant, if they decide to let her keep her licence now that everything has come out.


sorry, updated my post, but i see what you mean. i wonder if its just her winningness that's causing problems. i mean if she had a 0-5 record would there even be a debate taking place?


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

HexRei said:


> sorry, updated my post, but i see what you mean. i wonder if its just her winningness that's causing problems. i mean if she had a 0-5 record would there even be a debate taking place?


Highly doubtful I'd say. 

There would certainly be no argument for a strength advantage, that's for sure :thumb03:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Killz said:


> As a person who has gone through this Daph has a pretty good point of reference as to the benefits/loss of physical strength. Whilst not Scientific proven, she has a better understanding than anybody as to how much advantage a transgender fighter would or wouldnt have over a naturally born female fighter.
> 
> For me, Im on the fence about whether I am, or am not for transgender females fighting other females in a sport that is predominantly about strength and causing damage to your opponent. That being said, 'IF' a licensing body grants her a licence, who am I to say whether she should or shouldn't be allowed to fight.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how this turns out.


i dont like the fact that every group no matter how big or small or ridiculous thinks there entitled to anything they want and equality is always the same old lame old argument that has gotten very stale


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

UFC_OWNS said:


> i dont like the fact that every group no matter how big or small or ridiculous thinks there entitled to anything they want and equality is always the same old lame old argument that has gotten very stale


If she has equal strength and fight abilities and is by all accounts now equal to a female (as decided by scientific research) then why shouldnt she have the same chances as others?

She shouldn't be allowed to fight other women if it's proven that she has an advantage, but again, that is very much the argument here.

I dont believe people striving for equality, regardless of their circumstances is ever a bad thing. The key word being, 'equality', i.e, equal to other women, not stronger, not bigger, not faster... equal.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

UFC_OWNS said:


> i dont like the fact that every group no matter how big or small or ridiculous thinks there entitled to anything they want and equality is always the same old lame old argument that has gotten very stale


Ok a) I don't think her intent is to represent a group, this is just who she is and b) you know damn well you'd fight tooth and nail for your right to do whatever the hell you wanted with your life


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

EDIT: double posted below


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Killz said:


> If she has equal strength and fight abilities and is by all accounts now equal to a female (as decided by scientific research) then why shouldnt she have the same chances as others?
> 
> She shouldn't be allowed to fight other women if it's proven that she has an advantage, but again, that is very much the argument here.
> 
> I dont believe people striving for equality, regardless of their circumstances is ever a bad thing. The key word being, 'equality', i.e, equal to other women, not stronger, not bigger, not faster... equal.


The word equality is lost in translation and logic with all these social groups that come out and complain, this is not like pre 1960's america with black and white equality oh no these groups want to get involved in just anything and everything and then sue or put propaganda against people simply saying no. 

Like that girl who just to be the first female kicker in the nfl and they actually let her try out at the jets and she failed miserably its on youtube. As for the topic at hand in my own opinion if you are born one gender/sex thats what you are classed in for life, i can't say i wanna be a british guy or a black guy or whatever and it just happen and that's the way it should be.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Killz said:


> HexRei said:
> 
> 
> > she was already granted a licence and won a bunch of fights. so really its a matter of the review process. I personally don't think its a major problem. she won't be beating Ronda anytime soon (if she could cut to 135)
> ...


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

what liddell said hexrei


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

I think I'm a bit out of my depth with this subject now, having little to no knowledge on it. Ive said what I think but debating it further would only lead to me spouting misinformed opinions.

Liddellianenko, as I said in the rep I just sent you, I appreciate the shit out of the way you have presented your opinions on this and whilst they differ from mine Im glad at least that some people on here can express themselves without the need to be insulting or abusive.

On that note, other than watching you guys, Im bowing out form this thread.


----------



## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Killz said:


> I think I'm a bit out of my depth with this subject now, having little to no knowledge on it. Ive said what I think but debating it further would only lead to me spouting misinformed opinions.
> 
> Liddellianenko, as I said in the rep I just sent you, I appreciate the shit out of the way you have presented your opinions on this and whilst they differ from mine Im glad at least that some people on here can express themselves without the need to be insulting or abusive.
> 
> On that note, other than watching you guys, Im bowing out form this thread.


----------



## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Liddellianenko said:


> You think so? I think Fallon would walk right through Rhonda or any woman. It wouldn't even be competitive, as all the fights so far have shown.


Ummm... ok? Gina also ripped through her competition in her day. So? You're basing your entire argument on a career that has never faced elite competition. 


Look, I don't care that much if she is able to fight. But your idea that she is still a man is ridiculous. she doesn't have balls where is almost all testosterone is produced in the body. I've seen much manlier women than her in high school athletics. Are we going to outlaw that thick girl that everyone suggests is sexually ambiguous too?


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

HexRei said:


> Ummm... ok? Gina also ripped through her competition in her day. So? You're basing your entire argument on a career that has never faced elite competition.
> 
> 
> Look, I don't care that much if she is able to fight. But your idea that she is still a man is ridiculous. she doesn't have balls where is almost all testosterone is produced in the body. I've seen much manlier women than her in high school athletics. Are we going to outlaw that thick girl that everyone suggests is sexually ambiguous too?


that is some ridiculous argument you have there, yes every girl that is big but doesn't have a dick should be outlawed smh you know the answer to your own questions hex


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

HexRei said:


> Ummm... ok? Gina also ripped through her competition in her day. So? You're basing your entire argument on a career that has never faced elite competition.
> 
> 
> Look, I don't care that much if she is able to fight. But your idea that she is still a man is ridiculous. she doesn't have balls where is almost all testosterone is produced in the body. I've seen much manlier women than her in high school athletics. Are we going to outlaw that thick girl that everyone suggests is sexually ambiguous too?


And I think your statement that a man is nothing more than "balls and testosterone", or the equivalent assumption that a woman nothing more than a "vagina, boobs and hormones" is ridiculous, if not downright offensive. 

Scientifically, the differences in bone density, structure, blood capacity, organs, muscle system etc. don't just go away because you "have no balls", let alone all the psychological, reproductive and physiological differences. Even on a casual glance, you can notice that Fallon still has the facial bone structure of a man, and even if that was surgically altered, the rest of the body still has a man's bone structure, you can't replace them all.

What thick girl are we talking about? If you mean it's a lesbian who is otherwise completely physically born a woman then it's a different story. That would be a debate on sexuality more than gender itself, and the only concern would be if the other female competitors are fine with it or sexual arousal etc. during the competition. Physicality would be no different and not an issue.

If it's another suspected transgender person then yes, I think her opponents should have the right to get a test invoked to see if that is the case, the same way a male competitor has every right to expect an opponent free from steroids.



Killz said:


> I think I'm a bit out of my depth with this subject now, having little to no knowledge on it. Ive said what I think but debating it further would only lead to me spouting misinformed opinions.
> 
> Liddellianenko, as I said in the rep I just sent you, I appreciate the shit out of the way you have presented your opinions on this and whilst they differ from mine Im glad at least that some people on here can express themselves without the need to be insulting or abusive.
> 
> On that note, other than watching you guys, Im bowing out form this thread.


I'd rep you back but I need to spread some more love first . No worries, we're all friends and fans here, no need for this to get personal or insulting to anyone, just debating is all.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Liddellianenko said:


> And I think your statement that a man is nothing more than "balls and testosterone", or the equivalent assumption that a woman nothing more than a "vagina, boobs and hormones" is ridiculous, if not downright offensive.
> 
> Scientifically, the differences in bone density, structure, blood capacity, organs, muscle system etc. don't just go away because you "have no balls", let alone all the psychological, reproductive and physiological differences. Even on a casual glance, you can notice that Fallon still has the facial bone structure of a man, and even if that was surgically altered, the rest of the body still has a man's bone structure, you can't replace them all.
> 
> ...


FACE BONES FTW!


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

Liddellianenko said:


> Sorry i wasn't aware either, so I hope I didn't offend you with the somewhat harsh directness of my post. You're a polite and likeable poster, so it's nothing personal.
> 
> Still, disclosure or not, do you think it'd be fair for you to compete in WMMA against say LizaG, or for her to be forced to compete with you if she wanted to compete in the women's div? Honestly, how much do you bench on a good day?
> 
> ...


On a good day I can bench 95 pounds, before I transitioned, I could easily bench 150 on a good day. Do I think it would be fair for me to fight LizaG? Interesting question, we all know I train Muay Thai and I also train BJJ and I still think it would be fair. I also think I'd actually lose that fight. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you guys appear to be confusing gender with sex. Sex is the reproductive organs your body has, gender is how you see yourself. 

One thing that people seem to be overlooking too is that the desire to transition spawns from a condition that affects the brain similiarily to how depression affects the brain. As far as the equal rights thing goes, I think that society is doing itself a great disservice by not accepting Fallon simply because she's trans. I guess the way I see it, beyond my firsthand experience would be that the commission granted her a license, and she has been licensed to fight as Fallon. The commission knows what it's doing, they are the 'experts' after all, right? So if you won't take the word of another trans woman, at least take the commission's decision at face value. The likelihood of a trans exclusive fighting organization is slim to none, but not because there's no audience for it, because there'd be so few fighters willing to keep their past in the present. Most people who transition attempt to leave their old life behind them and try to live successfully as their new sex and not be seen as trans. 

We've seen the question asked, if Fallon had a losing record, would this debate be happening, now I'd like to turn it around more, hopefully without getting sidetracked. Would we be having this debate if Fallon was a trans man instead? 

Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

UFC_OWNS said:


> that is some ridiculous argument you have there, yes every girl that is big but doesn't have a dick should be outlawed smh you know the answer to your own questions hex


No it comes down to the apex of the argument which is that she has an advantage because of once having a penis. That's what I'm addressing here. Fallon doesn't seem to be some kind of phenom.



Liddellianenko said:


> And I think your statement that a man is nothing more than "balls and testosterone", or the equivalent assumption that a woman nothing more than a "vagina, boobs and hormones" is ridiculous, if not downright offensive.
> 
> Scientifically, the differences in bone density, structure, blood capacity, organs, muscle system etc. don't just go away because you "have no balls", let alone all the psychological, reproductive and physiological differences. Even on a casual glance, you can notice that Fallon still has the facial bone structure of a man, and even if that was surgically altered, the rest of the body still has a man's bone structure, you can't replace them all.
> 
> ...


Actually, the major differences do tend to go away. I believe Fallon has not had testes for what... 7 years now? more? She's been undergoing massive hormone therapy for that time. Bone density is a function of testosterone, for example, and low test in men is associated with osteoperosis as a result. I'm not sure why you bring up her "reproductive differences", who cares about that?

If you want to ban her from fighting because of her face bones... lol. Have fun with that. What test are you talking about btw? Chromosomal?


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

Liddellianenko said:


> If it's another suspected transgender person then yes, I think her opponents should have the right to get a test invoked to see if that is the case, the same way a male competitor has every right to expect an opponent free from steroids.


This is definitely a slippery slope, it's not at all the same as a male competitor expecting a steroid free opponent. Essentially, people transition to cope with gender dysphoria. The use of the word transgender is incorrect in this context, you mean to say transsexual, and again, I'll loop back to my point from earlier. 'Suspected' or not, the commission deemed her eligible to fight as a female, that's all her opponents need to know about her perceived gender. How they prepare for fights should be based on old footage from Fallon's fights, not what genitals used to be between her legs.

Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## luckbox (Feb 12, 2010)

Cowgirl said:


> Would we be having this debate if Fallon was a trans man instead?


Of course not.

By the way, this thread delivers.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

luckbox said:


> Of course not.


Can everyone admit then that there is a hint of hypocrisy here? I don't see the difference, how can it be okay for trans men to fight biological men, but not okay for trans women to fight biological women?


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

Wow. This blew up since the last time I posted. I actually figured it was dying down.



> Would we be having this debate if Fallon was a trans man instead?


Nope. This issue has always only gained traction in women's sports.

Also, if some people consider Fallon forever a man and can only fairly compete against men, then they would also have to conclude a FtM trans man is forever a woman and can only fairly compete against women. But I doubt they'd say that.



> You think so? I think Fallon would walk right through Rhonda or any woman. It wouldn't even be competitive, as all the fights so far have shown.


I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Fox hasn't even beaten anyone with a win as a pro. One of her competitors was knocked out faster in her only other pro fight than against Fox.

A perspective from a woman active in the grappling circuit who if I recall correctly is a doctor:



> I competed against her in 2010 and nothing, behavior, strength, etc. would have clued me into her being anything other than biologically female. Not to mention the doctors showing her levels are good. Gender and sexual identity are so much more complicated than the scientifically illiterate like to accept, and if she's happy this way while phenotypically female (including hormone levels), well I wish her the best.
> 
> ...
> 
> Look, I've done 100+ grappling matches against women and another 20+ against men. I competed against her, you and all the other speculators in the thread have never seen anything other than her pictures. She had the physical attributes of a female, albeit an athletic one. She wouldn't, however, have fallen into top 5 strengthwise/explosiveness/quickness of women I've competed against. Just chill out and let her live her life.


She also said she was the winner of her match with Fox.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

There shouldn't really be a debate here. A man turned women should not fight women.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

It all comes down to tests. 

If they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, scientifically, that she is in fact exactly the same as any other woman out there, and then provide those tests results, then there isn't an issue.

However, if there is a grey area, ANY grey area, if they cannot prove on every single level with scentific data and tests that she is 100%, not 99%, 100% exactly, pure "woman" in terms of genetic/biological data, then there is a big issue and he should not be sanctioned to fight.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

SmackyBear said:


> A perspective from a woman active in the grappling circuit who if I recall correctly is a doctor:
> 
> 
> 
> She also said she was the winner of her match with Fox.


lol i thought i saw you over on the UG contradicting me. This was Hilary IIRC.

edit... or maybe not. could have been one of crooklyn's interviewees maybe?


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

box said:


> There shouldn't really be a debate here. A man turned women should not fight women.


I like MMA fighting, I'm a trans woman, does this mean I shouldn't do what makes me happy based on your preconceived flawed notions of what a woman is? A trans woman, is a woman. If Chaz Bono wanted to fight, should he have to fight women?


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

If we're speaking in hypotheticals, then yes, I would debate a woman turned man fighting male fighters. In both circumstances, you essentially have a man attempting to wail on a woman. Male on female violence is not a social norm, and regardless of sex change operations, pills, and the like, a woman who becomes a 'man' is still a woman - the same way that a man who becomes a 'woman' is still a man. Again, I understand that we want equality, but at its core, this is gender on gender battering, and sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

Canadian Psycho said:


> If we're speaking in hypotheticals, then yes, I would debate a woman turned man fighting male fighters. In both circumstances, you essentially have a man attempting to wail on a woman. Male on female violence is not a social norm, and regardless of sex change operations, pills, and the like, a woman who becomes a 'man' is still a woman - the same way that a man who becomes a 'woman' is still a man. Again, I understand that we want equality, but at its core, this is gender on gender battering, and sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils.


How is a man who becomes a woman still a man, or a woman becoming a man, how are they still a woman? Also, why do you put the transitioned sex in quotes? Seems a little strange.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Cowgirl said:


> How is a man who becomes a woman still a man, or a woman becoming a man, how are they still a woman? Also, why do you put the transitioned sex in quotes? Seems a little strange.


The definition of the word "woman" is human female, a human of the female gender. Woman is a term used to point out what the human version of say a "bitch" is in dog terms, which is a female dog, or a "doe" is a female deer - a "woman" is a female human.

The definition of "female" clearly states that is a gender that can give birth, of or denoting the sex that produces ova or bears young. Designating an organ, such as a pistil or ovary, that functions in producing seeds after fertilization. These are the definitions of "female", which in turn is what a "woman" is.

The definitions are extremely clear, you can muddle it up however you want or give yourself your own definition, but males who go through operations to try to become female are not female, neither are they women by the actual definition of the word, as they are not female.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

M.C said:


> The definition of the word "woman" is human female, a human of the female gender. Woman is a term used to point out what the human version of say a "bitch" is in dog terms, which is a female dog, or a "doe" is a female deer - a "woman" is a female human.
> 
> The definition of "female" clearly states that is a gender that can give birth, of or denoting the sex that produces ova or bears young. Designating an organ, such as a pistil or ovary, that functions in producing seeds after fertilization. These are the definitions of "female", which in turn is what a "woman" is.
> 
> The definitions are extremely clear, you can muddle it up however you want or give yourself your own definition, but males who go through operations to try to become female are not female, neither are they women by the actual definition of the word, as they are not female.



so a woman who cannot bear children is no longer female?


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

HexRei said:


> so a woman who cannot bear children is no longer female?


Find me a definition of female that does not include bearing of chldren, ovaries, the ability to give birth. If a female someday cannot bear children, then that is a woman who has been damaged. She was born with woman traits, biological levels, ability, etc. She is a woman that can no longer bear children.

The definition of "woman" is a human female. The same a we call a doe a female deer or a female dog a bitch, or a "man" a male human. A woman IS a female by definition, just of the human kind.

If you are born a man with man abilities/Plantagenet/biological/physical traits, and then you get an operation, yet have no traits of an actual female, then you are not female.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

HexRei said:


> so a woman who cannot bear children is no longer female?


You beat me to the punch Hex, repping you for that. This is a very valid point, gender is more socially defined than that.

Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Cowgirl said:


> How is a man who becomes a woman still a man, or a woman becoming a man, how are they still a woman? Also, why do you put the transitioned sex in quotes? Seems a little strange.


A man who becomes a woman cannot get pregnant. A man who becomes a woman cannot naturally lactate. A man who becomes a woman does not undergo a natural monthly period. And a woman who becomes a man does not magically sprout an adam's apple or penis. My point is that we can subject men and women to countless surgeries, pills, and serums, but at the end of the day, these are cosmetic and nothing more. Inside, and we're talking biologically and not spiritually, you're either male or female (barring rare exceptions, which aren't the topic here). 

It's not my intent to be insulting. I can't imagine how much it must stink to be a transgender and hear everyone tell you, 'You shouldn't do this or be involved in that'. I'm not in your position and so I'll never fully be able to appreciate or understand your point of view. That's the sad reality we face... I can grasp your points, your wants, and so forth, but I'll never fully be able to appreciate them. 

But that goes both ways. If you were to step in a ring with a woman tomorrow, I'd not be able to help but see what is in my world a man fighting a woman. Because to me, you were born a man, still have male functions, and are a man internally. I know you can't appreciate how I feel about the situation, but again, that's our dilemma... we'll always be on two different wavelengths regarding certain issues. 

It doesn't necessarily make me a bad person. I've often championed equality, but some areas are more sensitive than others, and rightfully so. This is one of those areas for me.


----------



## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

M.C said:


> Find me a definition of female that does not include bearing of chldren, ovaries, the ability to give birth. If a female someday cannot bear children, then that is a woman who has been damaged. She was born with woman traits, biological levels, ability, etc. She is a woman that can no longer bear children.
> 
> The definition of "woman" is a human female. The same a we call a doe a female deer or a female dog a bitch, or a "man" a male human. A woman IS a female by definition, just of the human kind.
> 
> If you are born a man with man abilities/Plantagenet/biological/physical traits, and then you get an operation, yet have no traits of an actual female, then you are not female.


You made it about birth-giving, lol. just asking.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Cowgirl said:


> You beat me to the punch Hex, repping you for that. This is a very valid point, gender is more socially defined than that.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com App


No, it's not. The definition of woman and female are quite clear.


----------



## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

M.C said:


> No, it's not. The definition of woman and female are quite clear.


Actually it's fairly complicated.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

Cowgirl said:


> You beat me to the punch Hex, repping you for that. This is a very valid point, gender is more socially defined than that.
> 
> I grew breasts from my hormones, that's a characteristic specific to females.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com App


Total mistake this post, if a mod could delete it, that'd be awesome  

Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

I also second MC's points regarding birth. A woman who can't bear a child is no less a female because she has the internal organs for doing so. Men turned women do not. You show me a pregnant man and I'll concede.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Canadian Psycho said:


> A man who becomes a woman cannot get pregnant. A man who becomes a woman cannot naturally lactate. A man who becomes a woman does not undergo a natural monthly period. And a woman who becomes a man does not magically sprout an adam's apple or penis. My point is that we can subject men and women to countless surgeries, pills, and serums, but at the end of the day, these are cosmetic and nothing more. Inside, and we're talking biologically and not spiritually, you're either male or female (barring rare exceptions, which aren't the topic here).
> 
> It's not my intent to be insulting. I can't imagine how much it must stink to be a transgender and hear everyone tell you, 'You shouldn't do this or be involved in that'. I'm not in your position and so I'll never fully be able to appreciate or understand your point of view. That's the sad reality we face... I can grasp your points, your wants, and so forth, but I'll never fully be able to appreciate them.
> 
> ...


Some guys can lactate. Seriously, its why the nipples are there. plus the mammary gland. :/


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

HexRei said:


> Actually it's fairly complicated.


Then provide me the complication. I have plenty of dictionaries that can provide the definition of both words quite clearly.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

HexRei said:


> Some guys can lactate. Seriously, its why the nipples are there. plus the mammary gland. :/


Fair. But they're certainly an exception to the rule. 

As for using hormones to grow breasts, it still implies interference from an outside source (pill or needle). Those hormones weren't naturally occurring.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

M.C said:


> Then provide me the complication. I have plenty of dictionaries that can provide the definition of both words quite clearly.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

HexRei said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex





> that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as female/male sex binary.


You are talking about rare situation where biology has issues forming what is normally done. There are exceptions in everything, however, the definition of woman/female - man/male are quite clear and distinctive. This does nothing but provide information that life has complications during growth in rare occasions. The male/female definition characteristics are quite clear for 99% of the population. 

That has nothing to do with the actual definitions, all it shows is a defect in human life growth, of which there are for every species from time to time.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

did you just say that, lol?


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

HexRei said:


> did you just say that, lol?


My cousin has a very similar issue. I cannot remember the name of it, was born with hormones/biological traits that identify as male/female. There are a few different biological growth syndromes/defects out there that happen to us as we are born/grow.

It is a defect in human life, it is not supposed to happen. Do you think it is normal human growth?


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

M.C said:


> You are talking about rare situation where biology has issues forming what is normally done. There are exceptions in everything, however, the definition of woman/female - man/male are quite clear and distinctive. This does nothing but provide information that life has complications during growth in rare occasions. The male/female definition characteristics are quite clear for 99% of the population.
> 
> That has nothing to do with the actual definitions, all it shows is a defect in human life growth, of which there are for every species from time to time.


The outdated dictionary definition does nothing to prove anything, as it is outdated. 

Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

This whole thing is ridiculous.

In situations like this I like to use the eye test. Watch some of her fights... she's a dude. Mutilating a penis and taking a bunch of hormones doesn't change that. I don't care if I'm being insensitive and I don't have a problem with folks deciding to change their gender, but when dudes start chopping their dicks off to compete with women in sport I draw the line.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

M.C said:


> My cousin has a very similar issue. I cannot remember the name of it, was born with hormones/biological traits that identify as male/female. There are a few different biological growth syndromes/defects out there that happen to us as we are born/grow.
> 
> It is a defect in human life, it is not supposed to happen. Do you think it is normal human growth?


I think it is unusual. Are you saying that such a person not be allowed to be an athlete?


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

St.Paul Guy said:


> This whole thing is ridiculous.
> 
> In situations like this I like to use the eye test. Watch some of her fights... she's a dude. Mutilating a penis and taking a bunch of hormones doesn't change that. I don't care if I'm being insensitive and I don't have a problem with folks deciding to change their gender, but when dudes start chopping their dicks off to compete with women in sport I draw the line.


They don't "chop their dicks off to compete with women in sport." They take measures necessary to cope with their issue of gender dysphoria, in no way should transitioning eliminate a person from athletics.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

HexRei said:


> I think it is unusual. Are you saying that such a person not be allowed to be an athlete?


I never said they couldn't be an athlete. I stated in my other post (last page or page before that), that if this person in question is tested by every single test required, and if he passes all of them and is proven 100% that he has the exact same physical capabilities as a woman (strength/flexability/speed/bone structure/muscle growth, things that could make someone have an advantage in a fight), then he should be allowed to fight. 

I was simply pointing out that what Cowgirl said is factually wrong, the definition of woman/female is quite clear and having a surgery to remove your penis and injecting some hormones doesn't change that.



Cowgirl said:


> The outdated dictionary definition does nothing to prove anything, as it is outdated.


So a definition that is accurate 99% of the time is outdated and wrong because a few people decide they are unhappy as a man or a woman by birth and so go through a surgery/inject some things that make them weaker/stronger than naturally born, but yet still do not meet the criteria of a man or a woman?

How silly is that?


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

M.C said:


> I never said they couldn't be an athlete. I stated in my other post (last page or page before that), that if this person in question is tested by every single test required, and if he passes all of them and is proven 100% that he has the exact same physical capabilities as a woman (strength/flexability/speed/bone structure/muscle growth, things that could make someone have an advantage in a fight), then he should be allowed to fight.


Why are you so resistant to using proper pronouns breh? It all loops back to what I've said the last few times, the commission licensed her as a female fighter, therefore, she has passed whatever tests were deemed necessary.

Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

The commission have allowed her to fight to this point, if they continue to license her then thats fine. I don't see the issue.

As I earlier stated, the grey area surrounding this is huge, and will never fully clear.

I'm just sitting back and waiting to hear what the commissions have to say. No point getting heated over something we can't change or fully understand.


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## luckbox (Feb 12, 2010)

M.C said:


> I never said they couldn't be an athlete. I stated in my other post (last page or page before that), that if this person in question is tested by every single test required, and if he passes all of them and is proven 100% that he has the exact same physical capabilities as a woman (strength/flexability/speed/bone structure/muscle growth, things that could make someone have an advantage in a fight), then he should be allowed to fight.


And what kind of test would this be? There is no way to measure this, as there are no rules on how strong and fast women fighting in MMA can be. It would all be speculation.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Cowgirl said:


> Why are you so resistant to using proper pronouns breh? It all loops back to what I've said the last few times, the commission licensed her as a female fighter, therefore, she has passed whatever tests were deemed necessary.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com App


His application was submitted in Feb and has not been approved. More importantly, I never said she wouldn't be/can't be/whatever, I just said that if he is proven to be on the exact same levels physically women, then I don't see a problem with him being allows (assuming no other women have a problem fighting him).



luckbox said:


> And what kind of test would this be?


I don't know, that's a big grey area, now isn't it? Should other women have to fight a man given such a grey area? That should be up to them. However, if doctors/medical officials state that he can fight women, then I have no reason to be upset about it, doctors would know this better than I.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

M.C said:


> His application was submitted in Feb and has not been approved. More importantly, I never said she wouldn't be/can't be/whatever, I just said that if he is proven to be on the exact same levels physically women, then I don't see a problem with him being allows (assuming no other women have a problem fighting him).


There you go again, using the wrong pronoun. She has been fighting just fine so far, 5 fights no issue. As long as the commission continues licensing her then it's all good, just like LizaG said.

Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

the gender reassignment has been 6yrs ongoing, I think we can stop calling Fallon a 'he' now 

commissions have been licensing her for 6 fights, surprised this only kicked off now.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Cowgirl said:


> There you go again, using the wrong pronoun. She has been fighting just fine so far, 5 fights no issue. As long as the commission continues licensing her then it's all good, just like LizaG said.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com App


The wrong pronoun? Are you talking about calling a man a man? 

As I've said a few times already, I was never against him fighting if doctors approve him so long as the women he fights agree to it.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

M.C said:


> The wrong pronoun? Are you talking about calling a man a man?
> 
> As I've said a few times already, I was never against him fighting if doctors approve him so long as the women he fights agree to it.


Your continuing use of the incorrect pronoun is offensive to what trans people have worked so hard for over the years, and is offensive to me by extension of that same logic. Fallon is a woman and should be referred to as such.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Cowgirl said:


> Your continuing use of the incorrect pronoun is offensive to what trans people have worked so hard for over the years, and is offensive to me by extension of that same logic. Fallon is a woman and should be referred to as such.


If you find it offensive I'm sorry, but it doesn't change anything. it's not my job to stifle what is reality and what is the actual definition of things just so it doesn't hurt your feelings. If you can't take it then I am sorry, but I'm not going to pretend reality isn't reality, and that a guy walking around with a removed penis and injections is a woman.

I'm not trying to be mean or disrespectful, I'm a pretty nice guy and most people here know it, but reality is reality, definitions are there for a reason, they define the words we use. 

I have no issues with him wanting to be a woman, or with you wanting to be a woman, or with your choice to do whatever it is you want with your body, that's all on you and I'm glad you have an outlet to change such things, but I'm not going to stifle what is reality just cause it makes you feel uncomfortable.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

M.C said:


> If you find it offensive I'm sorry, but it doesn't change anything. it's not my job to stifle what is reality and what is the actual definition of things just so it doesn't hurt your feelings. If you can't take it then I am sorry, but I'm not going to pretend reality isn't reality, and that a guy walking around with a removed penis and injections is a woman.
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean or disrespectful, I'm a pretty nice guy and most people here know it, but reality is reality, definitions are there for a reason, they define the words we use.
> 
> I have no issues with him wanting to be a woman, or with you wanting to be a woman, or with your choice to do whatever it is you want with your body, that's all on you and I'm glad you have an outlet to change such things, but I'm not going to stifle what is reality just cause it makes you feel uncomfortable.


From a legal standpoint, Fallon is a female.

Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

It also comes down to a Human Rights thing. Fallon has made the necessary strides to be considered a woman, in spite of emotional, psychological and physical trauma/turmoil/heartache. And has earnt the right to be called a woman.

But MC, I know you're a nice guy, this is a touchy area fo sho!

I've known close to 15 T-Girls over the years, and I always show the common courtesey of calling them female...I feel they earnt that right...it ain't an easy road


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Cowgirl said:


> From a legal standpoint, Fallon is a female.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com App


He is not a female by definition.



> Female (♀) is the sex of an organism, or a part of an organism, which produces non-mobile ova (egg cells). Most female mammals, including human females, have two X chromosomes.





> a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman.





> an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces egg cells.





> of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes


There are many sources. A man with a removed penis and some injections is not a female. 



LizaG said:


> It also comes down to a Human Rights thing. Fallon has made the necessary strides to be considered a woman, in spite of emotional, psychological and physical trauma/turmoil/heartache. And has earnt the right to be called a woman.
> 
> But MC, I know you're a nice guy, this is a touchy area fo sho!
> 
> I've known close to 15 T-Girls over the years, and I always show the common courtesey of calling them female...I feel they earnt that right...it ain't an easy road


If a person wishes to be called a female then that is fine, people have the right to ask to be called whatever they want, as you said I'm a nice guy I'm not here trying to be rude to Cowgirl or whoever, I'm just pointing out what is there.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

M.C said:


> He is not a female by definition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is it not fairly obvious that Fallon wants to be referred to as a female?


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

MC just saw you were voted 'Debater of the Year - 2009' certainly on fine form tonight


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Cowgirl said:


> Is it not fairly obvious that Fallon wants to be referred to as a female?


Sure. It doesn't mean everybody has to oblige and it doesn't mean if someone doesn't oblige, that they are being rude or mean or whatever (not saying you said this). Reality is there and if some people want to play along and call him a woman/she/her, that is perfectly acceptable and there's nothing wrong with that in fact I support people's rights to be who they want/act how they want, anything, it's your life by all means live it.

Just don't expect everyone to do so or play along.


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

So yeah back on topic....that license is under review huh?


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

oh man an official blogger vs a hall of fame inductee!!!! SHIT JUST GOT REAL!


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

Fallon Fox's driver's license says female. She could legally have her birth certificate ammended if she hasn't already. She's legally recognized as a female. A simplistic dictionary definition is just that. Simplistic, and hence, incomplete.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

M.C said:


> Sure. It doesn't mean everybody has to oblige and it doesn't mean if someone doesn't oblige, that they are being rude or mean or whatever (not saying you said this). Reality is there and if some people want to play along and call him a woman/she/her, that is perfectly acceptable and there's nothing wrong with that in fact I support people's rights to be who they want/act how they want, anything, it's your life by all means live it.
> 
> Just don't expect everyone to do so or play along.


I've met enough resistance to understand that not everyone is going to oblige, but I think for the sake of healthy discussion that we all use the correct pronoun.

Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

SmackyBear said:


> Fallon Fox's driver's license says female. She could legally have her birth certificate ammended if she hasn't already. She's legally recognized as a female. *A simplistic dictionary definition is just that. Simplistic, and hence, incomplete.*


Can you share the correct definition with us?


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

LizaG said:


> MC just saw you were voted 'Debater of the Year - 2009' certainly on fine form tonight


Yeah back when I used to post a lot on MMA/subjects, for the most part I just talk about games and what I'm doing right now these days. Plus, I was smarter back then, I get dumber every year I think.



> I've met enough resistance to understand that not everyone is going to oblige, but I think for the sake of healthy discussion that we all use the correct pronoun.


Actually I'm pretty much done with the debate in general, I provided my stance/point on the actual subject(which is he can fight whenever he wishes so long as he is approved by medical staff), all the other stuff was sort of an off the trail kind of thing, not important enough to derail the thread anymore.

See you around the board.


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

oldfan said:


> Can you share the correct definition with us?


It would be similar to MC's definitions, but include the word, "usually." In almost 2% of cases, the absolute definition fails. Such as androgen insensitivity syndrome, Mayer-Rokitansky-Kuster-Hauser syndrome, and many other cases. People can't just brush these cases off when crafting a definition just because it makes them reconsider their position on if a trans person is male or female. That's cognitive dissonance, not an argument.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

What about Cyborg?


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

TheLyotoLegion said:


> What about Cyborg?
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


What about her? Love you to death LL, I'm just not sure what you mean by that.

Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Cowgirl said:


> How is a man who becomes a woman still a man, or a woman becoming a man, how are they still a woman?


So this is really a *cat*, right Cowgirl? Let's not say anything else or he would be offended, given all the hard work he underwent to become a cat...


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

Now that is just baiting.

Lets keep this on topic.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

LizaG said:


> Now that is just baiting.
> 
> Lets keep this on topic.


No. It's not baiting at all. Fallon is not a woman. Period. Wow, did I say "period"? Fallon has no idea what a "period" means, because he never been a woman, therefore he does not have to deal with PMS, so there lies a clear advantage for him.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/4-ways-your-mentrual-cycle-affects-your-workouts.html

http://www.runtheplanet.com/trainingracing/training/women/menstruation.asp

http://www.periodicos.ufsc.br/index.php/rbcdh/article/view/1980-0037.2009v11n1p73

http://publications.ki.se/xmlui/handle/10616/38957

Edit: And still about the baiting accusation, that picture answers directly to the quote. It's not because you wanted so much to transform yourself in something else that you will actually become that something else literally.


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## Hexabob69 (Nov 8, 2008)

Through taking a male hormone Cyborg has advantages over the "normal" woman, it is understandable why such chemical manipulation is not allowed by either sex. Now on the other hand living in excess of 30 years with full on male hormones running your system, then to surgically remove physical sex identification, to market oneself as the opposite sex is a bit of a fraud. Wait a few more years and let the estrogen therapy really kick in and it may bring the tables back to near even; but is still fraud just the same.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> It's not because you wanted so much to transform yourself in something else that you will actually become that something else literally.


With all due respect, a person any gender attempting to be a cat is nothing at all like one gender transitioning to another. That's all I have to say on that matter. Back on topic though, no one I know of on this board is a member of the commission which granted her the license to fight. If the commission says she's a woman, and legally she's a woman, then let her fight as a woman.

Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

whatever screw it, this topic has gone on too long, if someone born as one thing thinks there another and then ha surgery to become it let them think that they are that even though it's falsehood. Oh I don't like being a white guy anymore let me have surgery to be hispanic or black now and then tell everyone that's what I really am


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## SmackyBear (Feb 14, 2008)

HexRei said:


> lol i thought i saw you over on the UG contradicting me. This was Hilary IIRC.
> 
> edit... or maybe not. could have been one of crooklyn's interviewees maybe?


Lol, yeah I remember that. We probably didn't need to quibble on a side issue considering we both had the same opinion on Chael's "hypogonadism" being either nonexistent or steroid induced. Sorry if I was way too pushy.

The UG is a guilty pleasure for me. The level of discourse is so often only one step above youtube comments, but it's somehow compelling.


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

Cowgirl said:


> With all due respect, *a person any gender attempting to be a cat is nothing at all like one gender transitioning to another.* That's all I have to say on that matter. Back on topic though, no one I know of on this board is a member of the commission which granted her the license to fight. If the commission says she's a woman, and legally she's a woman, then let her fight as a woman.


Please enlighten us.


On topic: Sex-determination is not nearly as complicated as you guys make it out to be. The presence of the Y chromosome in mammals indicates maleness and the absence femaleness. Most of the cases that aren't black and white somehow relate to aneuploidy 23 or some abnormality with the SRY gene. Nonetheless, from a biological standpoint the only thing that matters is the y chromosome.

The whole gender vs sex thing has no real scientific basis. You can make stuff like that up about anything. Take the cat guy for instance. We could say his species is human, but his identity is cat because he feels like a cat on the inside. It doesn't mean anything.

People have decided to switch genders because they want to and I'm fine with that, but Fallon Fox is as much a women as cat guy is a cat. You can act like something you aren't and get surgery to make yourself look like something you aren't, but at the end of the day it is your DNA that determines what you are.


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## Cookie Monster (Jan 5, 2013)

St.Paul Guy said:


> Please enlighten us.


Quite simply, Humans transitioning between human genders is far different from Humans crossing species. I support cat guy to do whatever he wants to do, but it's not the same as being transgender or transsexual.

That having been said, this is where I make my exit from this thread, it hits too close to home and is too far removed from the original topic. Great talking to everyone though


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

Cowgirl said:


> Quite simply, Humans transitioning between human genders is far different from Humans crossing species. I support cat guy to do whatever he wants to do, but it's not the same as being transgender or transsexual.
> 
> That having been said, this is where I make my exit from this thread, it hits too close to home and is too far removed from the original topic. Great talking to everyone though


You forgot the part where you explain your logic.


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

Let it go SPG, this thread has deviated too far from the original topic.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

How in the world did cross species topics get into this?


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Transgender and it's flawed logic is the topic, you can't use flawed logic to go around beating up women. By all definitions (chromosomal, reproductive, body/bone structure and simple eyes and common sense), removed sex organs and some added hormones do not make a woman. If the person involved is an mma fan and dreams of beating up women in mma, tough luck. Sometimes dreams are incompatible, either choose the op or choose mma. In any case the op is reversible to some extent, so there's always the choice there to go back and practice mma with men.

Cowgirl is a good, calm, polite person and has some great humor and insights on MMA as a poster. I can't play party to this delusion of political correctness though. He deserves everyone's courtesy and respect as a person and poster, but you can't force people to accept a false reality just because you want it. This whole thing about using the correct pronoun without any sort of logic just sounds like a child's tantrum. I'm sorry, one can't earn the right to a lie, it just doesn't work that way. One can't earn the right to call the grass purple, go ahead and call it what you want, other people will still call it green because that's what they see. 

I don't see why an obviously flawed and incomplete operation to pretend a false reality, with ALL OF SOCIETY forced to play along, is the only solution to the condition or desire to transform? Cowgirl said it's about a condition like depression, then why not address it psychologically and discuss the root issues and desires involved, with care, sensitivity and attention, instead of surgically? The op isn't even that old, how did people cope before that?

MC and SPG have already brought up the logic, definitions and paralells so I'm not going to belabor the point ... no matter how nice the emperor, someone is always going to point out the lack of clothes.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)




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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

HexRei said:


>


Great, now can you perform an operation to transform regular green lawn grass into that Taiwanese purple grass? Maybe some spray paint will do the trick? Glue some blades together to make them thicker? Inject some sap from the purple into the green? Maybe all the interdependent species and ecosystem of the purple grass will be fooled too. Maybe the required climate conditions, soil conditions etc. of the green grass will suddenly become the same as the purple one the moment you paint it. Oh wait, leave the paint on for a couple of years, that'll do the trick.

Or maybe the paint will just look like what it is, paint. Maybe you cannot replicate any of the thousands of nuances of the Taiwanese grass in it's ecosystem with just a dab of spraypaint. Maybe the green grass was beautiful as it was, and the purple beautiful as it was, and they complement each other wonderfully.


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## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

So this topic got out of hand a tiny bit.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

I think this topic has ran it's course. I'm going to close this now.

If anyone has any objections and feels this really needs to be left open, then you can PM me and I'll consider re-opening it.

Until then though... CLOSED


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