# punch after the ko



## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

is it like the cool thing to punch after the ko or something?
why does everyone in mma do it ? it can cause death or brain damage. rashad likes to do it in the ufc for example. i just saw this too


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXmshl98Tlg&feature=player_embedded#!



disgusting. ray charles could see that guy is out. why didnt the fighter stop. stop blaming the ref. blame the fighter.


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## ptw (Aug 13, 2009)

It's for the same reason the crowd gets angry when fights go to decision. Unfortunately, people like that kind of brutality.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

??? Fight's not over til ref stops it... so keep fighting.

Yes death and brain damage is possible, but Frank Mir took who knows how many Shane Carwin punches (some of the hardest in MMA) while he was groggy/out cold, and walked away fine. And the example you posted was a 135lb bout.

To want a fighter to stop at the safest point for his opponent just contradicts the term fighter.


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

i love a good ko as much as everyone but once their out the fight is over.


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

SM33 said:


> ??? Fight's not over til ref stops it... so keep fighting.
> 
> Yes death and brain damage is possible, but Frank Mir took who knows how many Shane Carwin punches (some of the hardest in MMA) while he was groggy/out cold, and walked away fine. And the example you posted was a 135lb bout.
> 
> To want a fighter to stop at the safest point for his opponent just contradicts the term fighter.




frank mir was not completely out he was on queer street and was pretending to be out so the ref would stop it


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

lol, I'd love to see you pretend to be out with a 285lb guy smashing his fists into your temple.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Im pretty sure i've seen worse, its just the nature of the sport.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

Mirage445 said:


> lol, I'd love to see you pretend to be out with a 285lb guy smashing his fists into your temple.


For real. I'm not a Frank Mir fan, but come on now the guys got heart. Just look at the second Brock fight lmao, he never tapped while that gorilla latched on to him peppering in the face with them Cosco family value-sized cans he calls fists. 

For the OP, I agree some fighters take it too far, but at the same time it's hard not to because some opponents have crazy recovery time. He could be out one second and awake the next, and your trusting the ref(never a good thing) to see what you see. On the other hand there are examples (Hendo/Bisping, Wandy/Rampage) that are obvious cheap shots and I don't condone that at all.


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

frank was 265 so was carwin its the same as 2 155 guys punching each other


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

once u get ko'd your not gunna get up and fight 2 seconds later. have u ever been ko'd ? if you have u know what im talking about.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

matt357 said:


> frank was 265 so was carwin its the same as 2 155 guys punching each other


Ah, no it's not.



> once u get ko'd your not gunna get up and fight 2 seconds later. have u ever been ko'd ? if you have u know what im talking about.


He wasn't out cold a la Liddell, but he was beginning to have the stanky leg.


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

the vid i posted the guy was out cold like chuck are u blind?


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

matt357 said:


> the vid i posted the guy was out cold like chuck are u blind?


Did you even read my posts? The stanky leg reference was to Frank Mir Bout against Carwin, not the video you posted btw.

Let me quote my earlier posts cause you must be the blind one:



> On the other hand there are examples (Hendo/Bisping, Wandy/Rampage) that are obvious cheap shots and I don't condone that at all.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

I believe a lot of this over kill started with Royce Gracie.
In UFC 1 or UFC 2 Royce got someone to tap and the Ref didn't acknowledge it. Grace let go and the guy went on fighting. After that Gracie wouldn't let go even after the Ref called a stop to it. Shortly after that was when I first heard "fight until the ref tells you to stop".
Hendo just came out and said he punched Bisping to shut him up. On the other hand Nate Marquart dropped a guy once and moved in for the kill. The guy was out but the ref didn't stop the fight. Nate stopped it. He stopped a punch in the middle of it and walked away and told the ref it was over. Very classy.
I don't know what the answer is. It's a brutal sport.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

In most cases, aside from Hendersons bomb on Bisping, they do it in case the fighter recovers and the ref somehow lets the fight keep going. One or two more punches to get the ref in is part of the sport.


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

box said:


> In most cases, aside from Hendersons bomb on Bisping, they do it in case the fighter recovers and the ref somehow lets the fight keep going. One or two more punches to get the ref in is part of the sport.



once u get ko'd your not gunna get up and fight 2 seconds later. have u ever been ko'd ? if you have u know what im talking about. when u wake up u cant even remember your name


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Royce Gracie was an overated classless douchebag. I wish he'll try some of that stuff today.


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## Kado (Apr 18, 2010)

I think with adrenaline, and the fact that you should not stop till the ref stops it is a reason people keep going. There have been cases whrere fighters have the wherewithall to stop, but you never know if that can come back, and bite you in the ass.


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

why do u keep saying " you should not stop till the ref stops it" thats bs


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## Kado (Apr 18, 2010)

Its not bs. Its practical. If the ref does not stop it then the fight is not over. Till he waves those hands in the air the fight is still a fight.


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

It is the referee's job to stop the fight, regardless whether one of the fighters wants the fight stopped or not.

A good example happened just 1 week ago in the Danzig/Wiman fight...Wiman told the referee that Danzig was out because of the guillotine, when in fact Danzig was completely fine. EDIT: Which stopped the fight, the ref took the fighters opinion on the matter.

I agree that when someone is completely knocked out cold that it looks bad hitting afterwards, but it's a two way street, say they didn't jump in for the finish, and about a second after the guy hits the mat he wakes up and instinctively defends himself, then recovers?

The ref COULD jump in right after the initial KO blow, but sometimes it's hard to tell that they're out for a second or two.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

You spend the whole fight trying to hit the guy with his defenses up and when it becomes super easy all of a sudden to hit him, it's hard not to.


Only guys like Mousasi and Shogun are confident and calm enough during a fight to stop when the guy is out (or nearly out). 


And no, nobody is going to die from it.


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

uh yes they can die yer a idiot. in addition in the vid i posted when the ko happened the ref was running over to stop it but the guy hit him anyway. it wasent necessary to hit him "to make the ref stop the fight" he was gunna anyway.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

SM33 said:


> *??? Fight's not over til ref stops it... so keep fighting.*
> 
> Yes death and brain damage is possible, but Frank Mir took who knows how many Shane Carwin punches (some of the hardest in MMA) while he was groggy/out cold, and walked away fine. And the example you posted was a 135lb bout.
> 
> To want a fighter to stop at the safest point for his opponent just contradicts the term fighter.


I've got to say, I hate this mentality and crap excuse. If a guy is out cold, get off him and stop punching his skull.

Who cares if Frank Mir was fine? That doesn't mean it's acceptable for fighters to continue to punch after a guy is out. I understand they get excited and want to make sure it's over, but a bit of awareness and common sense = Shogun.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Fact of the matter is that MMA has a ground game and the fight aint over till the ref decides so. We've seen fighters completely rocked and still go on to get the win. Yeah its harsh but thats MMA.


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## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

Cant Hendo Bitches without dropping the second bomb.


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

The only time I disagree is when the ref is trying to stop the fight, and the fighter ignored him..like Rampage v W Silva 3, or Gomi vs that other Japanese guy in Pride. (The name has escaped me)


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

Nefilim777 said:


> Fact of the matter is that MMA has a ground game and the fight aint over till the ref decides so. We've seen fighters completely rocked and still go on to get the win. Yeah its harsh but thats MMA.


rocked is different than out cold


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## Finnsidious (Mar 14, 2009)

I doubt the UFC or anyone else will ever do anything about it, because you basically have to read the fighters mind to know if they are just trying to finish the fight, or being a douchebag, and that is a lot to ask of the refs.

However I wish they would, because although it is rare, you can usually tell when fighters land extra spite punches, ie Henderson-Bisping. The 'heat of the moment' arguement is false on its face, since all you have to do is look at Shogun-Machida II or Kos-Thiago, to see the fighters know damn well when a guy is out.

They wouldn't need to make any rule changes, they have a sportsmanship clause already, but as much as I would like to see it used now and then, I won't hold my breath.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

matt357 said:


> once u get ko'd your not gunna get up and fight 2 seconds later. have u ever been ko'd ? if you have u know what im talking about. when u wake up u cant even remember your name


I have never been knocked out but there are examples of fighters being out and then wanting to come back literally two seconds later. Huoston alexander v james irvin is an example. Shane Carwin v willisch. And kind of a side one Brad tavares v Seth.

I do not like fighters hitting completely unconcious fighters and have a lot of respect if they stop before the ref pulls them off like Nate v Maia. But at the same time if a fighter continues like the Hendo KO I understand it. While in the replay it is clear to tell Bisping was out it is fairly hard to tell in the heat of the moment and all you are thinking is jump on him. One more punch from hendo and I would not have agreed.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

matt357 said:


> once u get ko'd your not gunna get up and fight 2 seconds later. have u ever been ko'd ? if you have u know what im talking about. when u wake up u cant even remember your name


Yes, I have been knocked out a few times. People recover completely different than the next, so that makes no sense. Your whole take on this doesn't work. How many times have you heard a fighter say, "But he was out," and the ref replies, "no he was still defending." 

Only ONE persons opinion matters, and that's the refs. The fighter has to keep fighting until the ref makes the decision to stop it, because the fighters opinion doesn't matter at all, unless you're Matt Wiman and convince the ref your opponent is out.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

> I understand they get excited and want to make sure it's over, but a bit of awareness and common sense = Shogun.


Not everyone is Shogun. And although he showed class at UFC 113, there have been more occasions where a ref has had to stop him kicking the shit out of people - people who didn't need to be hit any further for the win.

It's not a mentality or excuse, it's the fight game. Why would you stop attacking just cus your opponent (very dangerous opponent) falls over? For all you know he could be dead, could be KO'd or he could just be falling over and then put you in a career-ending leg lock.


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## Zuke (Sep 22, 2006)

I would much rather get hit one time when I am knocked out than get knocked out and get up by the count of 9 and then have the guy beat on me until I fall down again. Getting hit when knocked out is MUCH safer than getting knocked down and being allowed to get back up and continue the beating.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

matt357 said:


> why do u keep saying " you should not stop till the ref stops it" thats bs


Because that's what the fighters are told. Don't you listen to the announcers? They say it over, and over, and over, and over....


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## Calibretto9 (Oct 15, 2006)

This thread had the potential to be a decent discussion, but is instead several intelligent posters banging their head against a dense wall. Ugh.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Calibretto9 said:


> This thread had the potential to be a decent discussion, but is instead several intelligent posters banging their head against a dense wall. Ugh.


Ha ha. Oh well.


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## Zuke (Sep 22, 2006)

This is MMA. Ground fighting is allowed. Getting punched in the head while knocked out is the same as being given a standing 8 count in boxing. If you want guys not to take the odd shot while knocked out, then I suggest you watch boxing. This attitude given by the OP is the exact reason why knees on the ground, stomps, and soccer kicks are banned in UFC. 

Its a fight. Shit happens.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Ok i'm getting tired of hearing "go watch boxing"

many people on here are fans of both and can express their feelings about MMA if they choose to.


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## munkie (Sep 28, 2009)

Bottom line, you fight until the ref pulls you off. There is no debating that. You knock someone down, you follow and keep hitting them until the ref jumps on you. I've seen guys go down limp, like they'd been ******* shot, but the opponent didn't stay on them and once they hit the ground they slightly regained consciousness. And since the opponent was on them, still hitting them, they laid on the ground like they pulled guard and regained themselves. Then got up and ended up strangling the guy that had the fight won, if he followed up with more strikes once he got the knockdown. The fight isn't over once a fighter hits the ground. The fight is only over once the ref steps in and stops the action. That's just how it is and it won't change.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Oh and another example is an old GSP one vs. Hieron? (I think?)

Anyways GSP punches him hard with something and Hieron is out cold on his feet but regains conciousness even before he hits the ground and continues to fight for like 3 minutes before GSP puts him away.

So it does happen.


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

Majortom505 said:


> Because that's what the fighters are told. Don't you listen to the announcers? They say it over, and over, and over, and over....


they say it to cover their asses. how can u defend someone punching a unconscious, limp, defenseless fighter and giving him brain damage.


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## gosuu (Sep 23, 2007)

If you've ever been in an intense fight you'd understand that when someone is there trying to hurt you, just because you drop him it doesn't mean you should stop. Half the time the guy is out cold his opponent probably doesn't even realize it. Especially if the fight was a war. They're just fighting on instinct. 

On the flipside if the ko happens within 20 seconds of the fight starting, then they'd probably cont. to hit them to make sure they're out. If you stop attacking when you have them hurt and end up losing in the long run you'll be kicking yourself for weeks. Along with all the fans, your coaches, and your boss DW. It's best just to pound that guy as hard as you can when he's out so the ref stops it as fast as he can. If the ref is doing his job, you'll get in 1 maybe 2 shots tops. I'm not saying if you realize he's out and you're 100% positive you've won that you should keep hitting him. I'm just saying it's a lot different when you're actually the one fighting.


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## Zuke (Sep 22, 2006)

MMA, even with the odd late hit is way safer than boxing so you are just making a big deal of nothing. Bring back stomps, downed knees and soccer kicks.


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

gosuu said:


> If you've ever been in an intense fight you'd understand that when someone is there trying to hurt you, just because you drop him it doesn't mean you should stop. Half the time the guy is out cold his opponent probably doesn't even realize it. Especially if the fight was a war. They're just fighting on instinct.
> 
> On the flipside if the ko happens within 20 seconds of the fight starting, then they'd probably cont. to hit them to make sure they're out. If you stop attacking when you have them hurt and end up losing in the long run you'll be kicking yourself for weeks. Along with all the fans, your coaches, and your boss DW. It's best just to pound that guy as hard as you can when he's out so the ref stops it as fast as he can. If the ref is doing his job, you'll get in 1 maybe 2 shots tops. I'm not saying if you realize he's out and you're 100% positive you've won that you should keep hitting him. I'm just saying it's a lot different when you're actually the one fighting.


iv been in at least 100 street fights ko'd guys and gotten ko'd and if i ko a guy i dont wail on him . a street fight is more "intense than a mma fight so your argument is bs


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

thers no ref in s street fight if you hit a ko'ed guy and kill him you go to jail for life. this sets a bad example for kids and adults


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

matt357 said:


> they say it to cover their asses. how can u defend someone punching a unconscious, limp, defenseless fighter and giving him brain damage.


Because it is their job to finish opponents and sometimes it is hard to tell. Rampage/Wandy I would agree with you on. But disagree since I see fights like Amir/Hendricks happen.

Oh and stop double posting.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

matt357 said:


> once u get ko'd your not gunna get up and fight 2 seconds later. have u ever been ko'd ? if you have u know what im talking about.


Tell that to Brad Tavares. The guy got knocked out by a vicious soccer kick and was walking around 2 seconds later like nothing ever happened.


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## Zuke (Sep 22, 2006)

I love how a guy that has allegedly been in 100s of street fights is worried about the example he gives to kids. That made my day.

" If he is still awake on the ground you can ram his head on the pavement. But the minute he goes limp (pretending or not) we have to stop. Remember, we are gentlemen."


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

Zuke said:


> I love how a guy that has allegedly been in 100s of street fights is worried about the example he gives to kids. That made my day.
> 
> " If he is still awake on the ground you can ram his head on the pavement. But the minute he goes limp (pretending or not) we have to stop. Remember, we are gentlemen."


u have obviously never been in a fight in your life


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## NotDylan (Jul 13, 2009)

matt357 said:


> frank was 265 so was carwin its the same as 2 155 guys punching each other


You're smart.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

matt357 said:


> u have obviously never been in a fight in your life


No dude I agree with him and have been. 

He makes a good point. You give these fighters a lot of cr*p and they are the people who usually never get into street fights, and here you are boasting about 100+ street fights.

MMA is a sport. Street fighting is not. 

And in order to have 100+ street fights you needed to have instegated some of them which I think is even worse.


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## munkie (Sep 28, 2009)

matt357 said:


> iv been in at least 100 street fights ko'd guys and gotten ko'd and if i ko a guy i dont wail on him . a street fight is more "intense than a mma fight so your argument is bs


I've been in numerous street fights and I do follow and keep hitting the other guy once he goes to the ground. I learned in one of my first _REAL_ street fights that once you knock somebody down and out, they don't always stay down and out, being in over 100 fights I'd assume you know that. Anyways, in my fight that I'm talking about where the guy went down and was out, I didn't follow him down cuz he was out. What happened, he regained himself a couple seconds later and got up with a knife in his hand. What did I get for not continuing to pound on the guy? 22 stitches and 6 hours of surgery in my abdomen. MMA isn't a streetfight, but you have to have the same mentality in a Mixed Martial Arts match. The big difference between MMA and streetfighting is that you have a ref to stop it.


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## Zuke (Sep 22, 2006)

If you happen to end up on the winning side of a street fight. You better make sure that guy is knocked out and your first shot was a kick to the balls. There are no rules.

Reason why? Exactly what munkie mentioned. If he is not all the way out, who knows what could happen when he comes to.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

munkie said:


> I've been in numerous street fights and I do follow and keep hitting the other guy once he goes to the ground. I learned in one of my first _REAL_ street fights that once you knock somebody down and out, they don't always stay down and out, being in over 100 fights I'd assume you know that. Anyways, in my fight that I'm talking about where the guy went down and was out, I didn't follow him down cuz he was out. What happened, he regained himself a couple seconds later and got up with a knife in his hand. What did I get for not continuing to pound on the guy? 22 stitches and 6 hours of surgery in my abdomen. MMA isn't a streetfight, but you have to have the same mentality in a Mixed Martial Arts match. The big difference between MMA and streetfighting is that you have a ref to stop it.


F*ckin p*ssies with knives and guns. I have a collection of my own and would never pull them out in a street fight. Course I would get sued and fired...


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## munkie (Sep 28, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> F*ckin p*ssies with knives and guns. I have a collection of my own and would never pull them out in a street fight. Course I would get sued and fired...


I feel the same. Although, the point of my post was suppose to be that just because you knock someone down, it doesn't always mean that they won't get back up. He brought up streetfighting and I have personal experience that provides a damn good reason why you'd follow someone to the ground and finish the fight.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

munkie said:


> I feel the same. Although, the point of my post was suppose to be that just because you knock someone down, it doesn't always mean that they won't get back up. He brought up streetfighting and I have personal experience that provides a damn good reason why you'd follow someone to the ground and finish the fight.


I completely agree. Just the knifing thing caught my attention so I feel for you.


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## punchbag (Mar 1, 2010)

Mirage445 said:


> lol, I'd love to see you pretend to be out with a 285lb guy smashing his fists into your temple.


Not just any 285lb guy either Shane Carwin, this guy punches harder than almost anyone i've seen in MMA/anywhere his power's phenomenal.
Repped!


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

matt357 said:


> they say it to cover their asses. how can u defend someone punching a unconscious, limp, defenseless fighter and giving him brain damage.


How did I defend it? I simply pointed out that that is what they are told.


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## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

There are different degrees of being Ko'ed and the other fighter does not know the degree of it till the ref pulls him off

I keep reading on here that Ko's dont last two seconds yadda yadda, 

Some actually do and some a lot less time, the fighters are fighting for allot of money fame ect.. and there have been plenty of matches where a fighter is flash ko'ed and regains consciousness before the ref calls the fight and keeps fighting - sometimes winning afterwards 

its the same as holding a sub or keep hitting a fighter after he taps, if the ref does not see it it did not happen. there have been cases of this also where a fighter taps so the other fighter stops/lets go, the ref never sees the tap so the person that taps is like F it and keeps fighting


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

I've had thousands, literally thousands of street fights and whenever I got KOd the other guy always followed up and landed some more strikes.

They had to because they knew if I recovered, I would have got up and fugged them fools up. They were scared, because they knew how many street fights I'd had and shit.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Hiro said:


> I've had thousands, literally thousands of street fights and whenever I got KOd the other guy always followed up and landed some more strikes.
> 
> They had to because they knew if I recovered, I would have got up and fugged them fools up. They were scared, because they knew how many street fights I'd had and shit.


Hey Tank! How is it going? Have not heard from you in a while!


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

I admit that sometimes fighters take it too far, i.e. Rampage Jackson beating on Wanderlei Silva's face while the ref tried to pull him off in Silva vs Jackson 3. 

But in most cases its just the nature of the rules. A fight isn't over until the ref says it is, even though its obvious the fighter is out. 

In some cases a fighter will throw one or two half hearted punches then look up at the ref questioningly. THAT, I like more than anything else after a GnP KO or a knockdown(ish) KO followed by a few punches.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

As much as I know that the adrenaline combined with the ref having not stopped a fight yet, is enough to make a fighter go in for the kill without thinking rationally whether the fight is over or not...

... I also know that there are guys out there who enjoy beating on people when they are down and out.

Theres never any way of knowing which is happening when a fighter does the punch-O-corpse thing. Sometimes, Ive got to admit, it looks plain mean. Like the video posted by the OP.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

The video the OP posted was a prime example, there was no need for those extra punches. I don't care about heat of the moment and 'fight till the ref stops it', he was out cold and that was blatant. If some fighters can stop, so can the rest.

I hate seeing it.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

Hiro said:


> The video the OP posted was a prime example, there was no need for those extra punches. I don't care about heat of the moment and 'fight till the ref stops it', he was out cold and that was blatant. If some fighters can stop, so can the rest.
> 
> I hate seeing it.




I can see both sides really, on the one hand i dont appreciate things such as the Rampage v Wanderlai 3 occurences, but at the same time a fighter is there to win - until the referee officially stops the fight he has not won. 

Of course there is going to be some fighters who just derive some kind of victorious pleasure in hitting an unconcious opponent, others will be fueled moreso by adrenaline, and others will be able to stop themselves (ala Nate Marquardt v Demien Maia). 

Its just a sad fact of MMA that this type of thing will happen, and there is really no way to avoid it as too much is riding on fighters winning (Both financially and career wise) to risk not finishing at the first oppurtunity - and thusly over-zealousness is bound to happen.

And as also alluded to, this is a highly aggressive sport to which highly aggressive people will be drawn towards; which will further ensure the unfortunate continuance of over the top finishes.


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## matt357 (May 26, 2010)

"Michael Kirkham, 30 years old, from Gaston, SC died this morning as a result of a head injury during his MMA event at USC Aiken Saturday. He was pronounced dead this morning at Aiken Regional Medical Center.

Kirkham was transported to Aiken Regional Medical Center after he was struck several times in the head after he was out. He was unresponsive when transported and never regained consciousness. He died of a brain hemorrhage."


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

matt357 said:


> "Michael Kirkham, 30 years old, from Gaston, SC died this morning as a result of a head injury during his MMA event at USC Aiken Saturday. He was pronounced dead this morning at Aiken Regional Medical Center.
> 
> Kirkham was transported to Aiken Regional Medical Center after he was struck several times in the head after he was out. He was unresponsive when transported and never regained consciousness. He died of a brain hemorrhage."


This horrible.
It is easy to say that he knew the risks, or that no one broke any rules etc. but this just can't be allowed to happen.
No victory in a MMA match is worth the life of the opponent. I understand that this sport attracts aggressive people, men, and women, with too much testosterone, but this crap of beating on someone that is out has to stop.
Having said that.... I don't know how to fix it. As stated before the fighters are in a state of high aggression and they are told to fight until the ref stops them. Perhaps the refs need better training, and perhaps the fighters need to be more in the "now" and less in kill, kill, kill mode.
This makes MMA look barbaric and those that support it look like cavemen.
Whatever the answer is, we need to stop saying it is ok to beat on a man thats out, and fighters have to care more about being fighters and not executioners. If it doesn't change, the sport will be banned. I don't think most fans want that to happen.


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## mratch19 (Nov 19, 2007)

matt357 said:


> frank was 265 so was carwin its the same as 2 155 guys punching each other


really...... joking?


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Its amazing how fickle some people are. There are people in this thread who thought Hendo's follow up punch on Bisping was the best thing since Rohypnol, yet here they say you shouldnt do it. :sarcastic12:


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

its difficult... ive had a lot of standing tkos in my experience. only twice have a i finished a fight on the ground. On the ground its a different story, both times I landed maybe 5-6 strikes after the KO. Its just cause you are in the moment and this primal nature takes over, kill or be killed.

However everytime ive hit a guy and hes gone down I dont follow. If hes done, hes done. But I must say the truth, a guy flash KOed me when i was younger and cried like a bitch "stop stop stop" and he did. As like he did so do I.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Its amazing how fickle some people are. There are people in this thread who thought Hendo's follow up punch on Bisping was the best thing since Rohypnol, yet here they say you shouldnt do it. :sarcastic12:


Ummmmm..... Before your post I was the only one that said punching after the KO had to stop, so you must have been talking about me, basically calling me a hypocrite. So I challenge you to show the post where I applauded Hendo's action.
But let's say someone did applaud Hendo. Is it possible that with new information one can change their mind? Or you one of those that will defend an incorrect belief to the end, even if they know they are wrong?


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> Ummmmm..... Before your post I was the only one that said punching after the KO had to stop, so you must have been talking about me, basically calling me a hypocrite. So I challenge you to show the post where I applauded Hendo's action.


Are you really so egotistical that you think youre the only person to say you should stop when someone is KO'd? Read the thread again, numbnutz :confused03:



> But let's say someone did applaud Hendo. Is it possible that with new information one can change their mind?


What "new information" are you talking about? I'm guessing the computer in the Mentally Challenged Department is up and running again. . . ? :thumb02:



> Or you one of those that will defend an incorrect belief to the end, even if they know they are wrong?


I'm not sure where you got this from? :confused02: Theres no need for you to try and pick an argument with me, but if you insist i'll humour you.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Are you really so egotistical that you think youre the only person to say you should stop when someone is KO'd? Read the thread again, numbnutz :confused03:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't need to re-read the thread.
Matt posted an article that says a MMA fighter died from blows after the man was ko'ed. 
I posted that something has to be done and you then posted that people are fickle because they were all for Hendo striking Bisping.
No matter what you meant, and I think we both know what you meant, it sure looked like you were talking to me.
I didn't pick a fight with you, I challanged you to show the post where I applauded Hendo's action.
That you took as picking a fight. 
I bet you fight a lot.


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## tripster (Jun 5, 2006)

It happens more than it should and this vid is a brutal example. No doubt in my mind that this bonehead is just a bum. Talented but a bum just the same.

We've seen classier guys do it too. I think this is a good thread as this type of action may become something of a problem in the sport.

In fact I admit taking pleasure in Hendo smashing Bisping when he was clearly out cold.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> I don't need to re-read the thread.


Evidently you do if you believe "Before your post I was the only one that said punching after the KO had to stop" - check the other posts in the thread before you make a [email protected] of yourself next time.



> Matt posted an article that says a MMA fighter died from blows after the man was ko'ed.
> I posted that something has to be done and you then posted that people are fickle because they were all for Hendo striking Bisping.
> No matter what you meant, and I think we both know what you meant, it sure looked like you were talking to me.


Theres 8 pages to this thread. Youre not the only person to post here, so dont assume that what i've said is aimed at you, unless of course you were one of those people (which youre saying youre not so why the hell your ripping your knickers up about it i have no idea) Pull your head out of your ass :sarcastic12:



> I didn't pick a fight with you, I challanged you to show the post where I applauded Hendo's action.
> That you took as picking a fight.
> I bet you fight a lot.


I never mentioned fighting at all, i said dont try to pick an argument. I'd find it pretty difficult to fight with someone thousands of miles away. . .

You've basically called me out on something that doesnt even refer to you, but in your simple little mind i was calling you a hypocrite. . .

You, sir, are a 'tard.


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## sNatch204 (Oct 13, 2006)

There was no need to punch the guy after he was blatantly out. He was asleep. The guy was a dick for hitting him, but the ref was also at the other end of the cage for some reason. Oh well.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Evidently you do if you believe "Before your post I was the only one that said punching after the KO had to stop" - check the other posts in the thread before you make a [email protected] of yourself next time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now name calling.
Does your Mommy, or Mum, know you are on the Computer?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

matt357 said:


> uh yes they can die yer a idiot. in addition in the vid i posted when the ko happened the ref was running over to stop it but the guy hit him anyway. it wasent necessary to hit him "to make the ref stop the fight" he was gunna anyway.


Anymore insults like this and you'll be taking a break.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> Now name calling.
> Does your Mommy, or Mum, know you are on the Computer?


Yes, and she thinks youre a 'tard too :thumb02:


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

The Lone Wolf said:


> Yes, and she thinks youre a 'tard too :thumb02:


Well she raised you.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> Well she raised you.


Indeed she did. . . thats what mothers do. . . :confused05:

You know, the more we converse the more convinced i am that youre actually a monkey.

I'll give you a banana for a picture of you wearing a trilby hat and smoking a cigar? 

:happy03:

Edit: Too late, already found one. . .


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Do we really need to be insulting each other and bringing our mothers into this?
Dr,dr,dr,dr,DRUNK BRO!!!!

Fact of the matter it is not cool to pummel an KOed opponent but it is what a fighter is payed to do. He is told to for months continue until the ref pulls you off. Shows of class like Nate/Maia are extremely cool but also dangerous for people who do not know if their oponent is really out or not. 

That and the fact that this sh*t actually gets attention in threads like this and conversations like this. People are talking about this fighter and he will get payed more because he has a KO that looks extremely devastating. 

GnP punches after KOs are dangerous as shown by the guy who just died last weekend but the fighters will continue to do it. We just need to support the fighters that back off more than the fighters that aim to kill.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

I'm sure i'll see some red for this, but my opinion is this:

If a fighter sees a guy is *unconscious* there's no honor in continuing to pummel his face several times. Watch Shogun vs Machida or Marquardt vs Maia. Shogun hit Machida until he was unconscious then stopped and got up. Marquardt wound up, then realized Maia was messed up so he stopped and walked away. 

That kinda shit i love about MMA, watching someone who can't fight back gets smashed a bunch of extra times pisses me off.

Just my 2cents.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

rygu said:


> I'm sure i'll see some red for this, but my opinion is this:
> 
> If a fighter sees a guy is *unconscious* there's no honor in continuing to pummel his face several times. Watch Shogun vs Machida or Marquardt vs Maia. Shogun hit Machida until he was unconscious then stopped and got up. Marquardt wound up, then realized Maia was messed up so he stopped and walked away.
> 
> ...


Why would you get red for this?:confused02:


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

The505Butcher said:


> Why would you get red for this?:confused02:


There's quite a few people who seem to think it's kosher to smash an unconscious person over and over, as long as the referee hasn't stopped the fight yet. I assumed those with that mentality would flame the shit out of me, didn't want to get into a war just wanted to state my opinion.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

rygu said:


> There's quite a few people who seem to think it's kosher to smash an unconscious person over and over, as long as the referee hasn't stopped the fight yet. I assumed those with that mentality would flame the shit out of me, didn't want to get into a war just wanted to state my opinion.


Yeah no it is cool but that really is not how the rep system works.

And it is not cool but it is understandable. Do I wish all fighters acted like Shogun and Marquardt? Yes. But unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world and things like Rampage/Silva 3 will happen. Just have to take it because there is nothing we can do.


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## js9234 (Apr 8, 2007)

Do you have a link? I read about the death but this is the first I'm hearing about the bolded part. 


matt357 said:


> "Michael Kirkham, 30 years old, from Gaston, SC died this morning as a result of a head injury during his MMA event at USC Aiken Saturday. He was pronounced dead this morning at Aiken Regional Medical Center.
> 
> Kirkham was transported to Aiken Regional Medical Center after *he was struck several times in the head after he was out. He was unresponsive when transported and never regained consciousness. He died of a brain hemorrhage.*"


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## UKMMAGURU (Nov 15, 2009)

That Kirkham guy was apparantly 6ft 9ins and 150lbs ???


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## Johnni G (Dec 2, 2009)

I agree. Sometimes its a bit harsh to watch


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## Ruckus (Oct 2, 2009)

matt357 said:


> why do u keep saying " you should not stop till the ref stops it" thats bs


 Its not bs, its a fight. See below.



Mirage445 said:


> I*t is the referee's job to stop the fight*, regardless whether one of the fighters wants the fight stopped or not.
> 
> A good example happened just 1 week ago in the Danzig/Wiman fight...Wiman told the referee that Danzig was out because of the guillotine, when in fact Danzig was completely fine. EDIT: Which stopped the fight, the ref took the fighters opinion on the matter.
> 
> ...


^THIS^ :thumbsup:



Calibretto9 said:


> This thread had the potential to be a decent discussion, but is instead several intelligent posters banging their head against a dense wall. Ugh.


I WAS going to join this discussion until I read this.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

I agree that when someone is completely knocked out cold that it looks bad hitting afterwards, but it's a two way street, say they didn't jump in for the finish, and about a second after the guy hits the mat he wakes up and instinctively defends himself, then recovers?

The ref COULD jump in right after the initial KO blow, but sometimes it's hard to tell that they're out for a second or two.
^THIS^ 

This? Let's look at it logically. If possible.

Fighter A knocks out Fighter B. Fighter B comes back to life in 1 second and continues fighting, perhaps even eventually wining.

Second situation. Fighter A knocks out Fighter B then follows him to the mat and lands 3 to 5 more punches. Fighter B dies.

In the first situation Fighter A loses a fight. In the second situation Fighter B loses his life.

Is wining a fight worth a life? Can anyone possibly say that because a fight MAY BE lost that it is better to MAYBE kill the other guy?

The difference is like living in Afghanistan or living in America. It's not even close.


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## LiteGladiator (Jun 22, 2010)

Majortom505 said:


> I agree that when someone is completely knocked out cold that it looks bad hitting afterwards, but it's a two way street, say they didn't jump in for the finish, and about a second after the guy hits the mat he wakes up and instinctively defends himself, then recovers?
> 
> The ref COULD jump in right after the initial KO blow, but sometimes it's hard to tell that they're out for a second or two.
> ^THIS^
> ...


It's MMA it happens sometimes worse than others, but it is a risk you have to accept when competing in this sport. It's not like the fighter know that if they get knocked out, their opponent will stop. At least it is not as bad as boxing. Look at UFC fighter who are engineers or computer technitians, they are completely fine, fighting the most dangerous guys out there.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Majortom505 said:


> I agree that when someone is completely knocked out cold that it looks bad hitting afterwards, but it's a two way street, say they didn't jump in for the finish, and about a second after the guy hits the mat he wakes up and instinctively defends himself, then recovers?
> 
> The ref COULD jump in right after the initial KO blow, but sometimes it's hard to tell that they're out for a second or two.
> ^THIS^
> ...


That seems to be blowing death in MMA up a little. It has only happened twice in sanctioned bouts and one of them I am not sure how he was cleared to fight.

If fighters start to die more often then I will concede that you are right here but this is a combat sport and all the fighters know what they are getting into before they step into the cage/ring. 

How do you think we should fix this problem anyways?


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> That seems to be blowing death in MMA up a little. It has only happened twice in sanctioned bouts and one of them I am not sure how he was cleared to fight.
> 
> If fighters start to die more often then I will concede that you are right here but this is a combat sport and all the fighters know what they are getting into before they step into the cage/ring.
> 
> How do you think we should fix this problem anyways?


I freely admit that I don't have a solution. Headgear would help, but that's not going to happen. Better ref'ing with more attention spent on the condition of the fighter's as the fight progresses would be better. Staying closer to the fighters, rather than being across the ring as the S.C. ref was would help. Perhaps ref training on what to look for in a tired or head injured fighter. All of these would help. I don't know if this would be a solution or not.
It is an aggressive sport, with aggressive people involved and I don't think anything will eliminate the possibility of death. As you say the fighters know the risk before entering the octagon or ring, but so do drunk drivers and smokers, over-eaters.... Nobody thinks it will be them, and the younger one is, the more this applies.
Ultimately I believe most of the responsibility is on the fighters. As I said before, getting a win can't be more important than another's life. Joe and Goldblob constantly talk about how calm and in control fighters in MMA are yet the fans jump to say how out of control fighting makes one.
All I know is that this will happen again unless something is done, and my life experience tells me that no one will listen to what I say, so it will be the commissions and organizations that will have to do it.
It isn't out of the question that a prosecutor will hold the one that killed the other responsible for manslaughter or even more, depending on the circumstances. Example: Hendo's hit on Bisping. Hendo admits he knew the guy was out. What if Bisping died? Is hitting a ko'ed fighter that causes death something that can bring charges? Would anyone really want that?
As for only 2 deaths... one is too many.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> I agree that when someone is completely knocked out cold that it looks bad hitting afterwards, but it's a two way street, say they didn't jump in for the finish, and about a second after the guy hits the mat he wakes up and instinctively defends himself, then recovers?
> 
> The ref COULD jump in right after the initial KO blow, but sometimes it's hard to tell that they're out for a second or two.
> ^THIS^
> ...


I really dont want this to seem like i'm singling you out, but your reasoning here is severely flawed. 

A devastating head kick, or a devastating knee to the face, hell, even a solid punch to the temple, could cause a brain hemorrhage, or in extreme circumstances - instant death.

Now, with your logic Fighter A will not throw any punches / kicks / knees to his opponents head in the fear of killing Fighter B. Where does this leave the sport of MMA?

Yeah its not very nice to see a fighter taking more damage than, *in hindsight*, was necessary. But its also not as damaging as sensationalist reports and unfortunate incidents lead you to believe.

I'd be pretty confident in suggesting that somehwere in the fight contract it waives the responsibility of the opponent or the organisation unless its a general act of misconduct, ie. Continuing to hold onto a choke when the ref is stopping the fight, or continuing to attack your opponent when the ref is stopping the fight. These things will be covered in some respect in the contracts. I'd almost guarantee it.


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## Ground'N'Pound5 (Aug 7, 2009)

adrenaline is a bitch and you wanna make sure they dont come back so you just add a punch or two. have you been in a fight? do you know what type of feeling it is to KO someone? no one stays calm, you go for the attack and make sure you got them KO'ed


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Majortom505 said:


> I freely admit that I don't have a solution. Headgear would help, but that's not going to happen. Better ref'ing with more attention spent on the condition of the fighter's as the fight progresses would be better. Staying closer to the fighters, rather than being across the ring as the S.C. ref was would help. Perhaps ref training on what to look for in a tired or head injured fighter. All of these would help. I don't know if this would be a solution or not.
> It is an aggressive sport, with aggressive people involved and I don't think anything will eliminate the possibility of death. As you say the fighters know the risk before entering the octagon or ring, but so do drunk drivers and smokers, over-eaters.... Nobody thinks it will be them, and the younger one is, the more this applies.
> Ultimately I believe most of the responsibility is on the fighters. As I said before, getting a win can't be more important than another's life. Joe and Goldblob constantly talk about how calm and in control fighters in MMA are yet the fans jump to say how out of control fighting makes one.
> All I know is that this will happen again unless something is done, and my life experience tells me that no one will listen to what I say, so it will be the commissions and organizations that will have to do it.
> ...


Yes any death in this sport is too many from a perfectionist standpoint. Better training of the ref would help which is why I dislike refs like Mirgliata and Mazagati. Herb Dean is pretty good but he does tend to sit back sometimes when I think he should be a little closer to the action. 

I in no way want a single other fighter to die in MMA but I feel these rules are best for everyone right now. I wish we could show our support more for fighters that do hold back but nfortunately the majority of MMA fans are drunken bros that think that is cool and they think that really shows dominance or whatever retarded argument they use. 

The deaths in MMA are sad but at the same time they were bound to happen. I mean the most deaths in a sport is actually fishing so if a sport only has two deaths in 17 years then I say it is doing a pretty good job of protecting its players. Especially given the objective of MMA.


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