# Judo Techniques Making the Difference in Fights



## Walker (May 27, 2007)

> *Judo Techniques Making the Difference in Fights*
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From:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/9/27/623040/judo-techniques-making-the​ 
I really have to agree with this article as I remember watching the Muira/Condit fight and seeing Muira throw Condit around like a rag doll. I really don't like Karo but his judo(when actually motivated) is super slick which made the cancellation of the Yoshida fight suck.​ 
One of the reasons I was so impressed with Stun Gun was his use of judo throws in his previous fights. Brown's defense of those was pretty impressive in their fight and completely surprised me. I've also seen GSP with some good throws as well.​ 
Click on the *fun judo reference site* it has got some pretty cool animations of Judo techniques that's pretty sweet to check out.​ 
I can see more and more fighters adding more judo to their tool kit for the advantages it gives them to use position for easy throws and then get a dominate position on the ground.​ 
Your thoughts?​


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## bigdog89 (Oct 17, 2007)

Karos fight with shonie was pretty sick in the WEC with the throws he was landing at will.

But another fighter who employs throws pretty effectively was Hidehiko Yoshida

And esp fedor in his fights against well almost everyone hes fought...


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## Robbsville (Sep 13, 2008)

I'd have to agree, recently i've just started to go to Judo to try and learn some grapple and throw techniques to use in MMA.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Ummm... didn't Condit win that fight anyway? (rhetorical question)

Judo techniques help, but so do any other kind of techniques.

I'm not trying to bash Judo (it's basically my entire takedown game), but it's not becoming more significant in MMA. If anything, with the recent collapses of Soukdjou, Parisyan (who is pretty much done, in my opinion) and Nakamura's failure in the UFC, it has lost some of its key players.

As long as Hidehiko Yoshida remains a force in the game, there will be some substantial judo guys underneath his level, but the idea that judo is becoming any more prominent than it was six months or a year ago (or even two years ago) isn't realistic.


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

No-one giving credit to Lyoto Machida's Judo Trips? 
Those are just super sweet


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## Judoka (Feb 23, 2007)

Damn straight:thumb02:

Like IronMan said, It is going to help a lot but not win fights by itself.

Judo is very strange to most MMA fighters coming in different ways for take downs and large varieties of throws, It will become like Wrestling in the MMA world. Many Judo guys are good on the ground but most(now days) don't quite match the top BJJ guys there so I think that the ground skills of a Judoka are very important BUT like Fedor I think Judoka's in MMA would actually be great at mixing GnP and submissions together instead of focusing on one.


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

what about the diaz vs neer fight diaz was pulling of some good throws


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

I was mainly looking at this article with using judo as an added skill to a fighter's arsenal not necessarily like primary judo fighters like Karo.

Muira was able to toss Condit around but could not do much damage to him on the ground and Condit could force his way back up to his feet. If he better ground skills he might have pulled off the win.

I look at how GSP uses some throws to take his opponent down and is able to control them there and work GnP. Stun Gun still has work to do but in his fights I've seen him use judo for similiar results.

I just see judo as useful, obviously with other tools, to round out a fighter's skillset.​


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

The thing with Judo is best used in wrestler vs. wrestler matches. But judo has many problems, like often when you throw some one you don't have any real control of their body so they can just stand back up. Judo can also be really useful if you have a strong submission game because you can flow through a throw into a sub. However in the TD realm, freestlye wrestling is probably best, with greco coming in a close second.


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

Judoka said:


> Like IronMan said, It is going to help a lot but not win fights by itself.


Just like any other kind of takedowns wont. Point is though that with most "wrestler" takedowns and trips you usually end up in full or half guard, and need good positioning and wrestling to work into better position. A successful judo trow like shown in the gif basically gets you in side control already, which is a huge advantage against guys with good guard like for example Nog and Penn.

1 reason Fedor is being so dominant is because people do not train enough judo/***** to counter his trows. I think it was Matt Lindland who said he had never seen an armbar like that before (when Fedor submited him with one), it was "only" a regular ***** armbar according to Fedor though. 
So yes, with everyone getting more and more versatile I think less common moves like judo trows or even flying leg locks & arm bars will be making a huge difference in fights. You basically have to train striking, takedowns, takedown defense, submissions, submission defense, overall movement, cardio etc. already, so the element of surprise plays pretty big role when you pull an uncommon move out of nowere. You would be dumb to not train to counter judo trows vs. someone like Karo though, which I believe is one of the reasons for him not being as succesful anymore.


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

GKY said:


> The thing with Judo is best used in wrestler vs. wrestler matches. But judo has many problems, like often when you *throw some one you don't have any real control of their body so they can just stand back up.* Judo can also be really useful if you have a strong submission game because you can flow through a throw into a sub. However in the TD realm, freestlye wrestling is probably best, with greco coming in a close second.


maybee if you have low level judo. If your executing the technique correctly you will have full control. Most throws put you in position for kesagatame or cross body. You forget that judo is all about takedowns and positioning.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

lol gky as mrmyz said judo guys love to be in kesagatame or invers kesagatame and trust me it is ******* painful and difficult to escape from it , 
judo is all about controlling and holding ur opponent down ...
thats why jiu jitsu guys panic when they get in judo guys kesagatame


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## Judoka (Feb 23, 2007)

dontazo said:


> lol gky as mrmyz said judo guys love to be in kesagatame or invers kesagatame and trust me it is ******* painful and difficult to escape from it ,
> judo is all about controlling and holding ur opponent down ...
> thats why jiu jitsu guys panic when they get in judo guys kesagatame


Kesa Gatame is very hard to escape from. I hate getting pinned in Judo because instead of your loss being a show of great skill from your opponent and it's over in a split second. With Osaekomi Waza(Pinning techniques) you lay there for 25 seconds with someone lying on top of you and you can't get out.

However there are ways to escape pins.


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

Judoka said:


> Kesa Gatame is very hard to escape from. I hate getting pinned in Judo because instead of your loss being a show of great skill from your opponent and it's over in a split second. With Osaekomi Waza(Pinning techniques) you lay there for 25 seconds with someone lying on top of you and you can't get out.
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> However there are ways to escape pins.


yeah to a certain extent judo ground game can be harder to deal with than BJJ guys because if some one gets you into a good pin all they will do is maintain position they wont even attempt to go for a sub or advance position because theres no point. Its an unfair comparison though because the goals are different.

Kesagatame is a bitch to get out of when I was rolling with some bjj guys they would get pissed when I would lock them in kesagatame. Purple belts and above where the only ones that could get out and it was a bitch for them.


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

mrmyz said:


> yeah to a certain extent judo ground game can be harder to deal with than BJJ guys because if some one gets you into a good pin all they will do is maintain position they wont even attempt to go for a sub or advance position because theres no point. Its an unfair comparison though because the goals are different.
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> Kesagatame is a bitch to get out of when I was rolling with some bjj guys they would get pissed when I would lock them in kesagatame. Purple belts and above where the only ones that could get out and it was a bitch for them.


Assuming arm is locked in tight enough to be pulled out, guys who aren't flexible enough to hook and secure your back leg with their own legs can't really escape from it. Its easier to roll to side control or get your back if they can hook that leg though, but yeah have to agree its not exactly easy task to do for non flexible guys unless your back leg is clearly too much behind.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

Judo IMO has the best takedowns of all martial arts. But, it relies on the gi too much. And not to mention the removal of leglocks and necklocks over the years to make it a more safe sport. Sport Judo has ruined Martial Art Judo.


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## Judoka (Feb 23, 2007)

Freelancer said:


> Judo IMO has the best takedowns of all martial arts. But, it relies on the gi too much. And not to mention the removal of leglocks and necklocks over the years to make it a more safe sport. Sport Judo has ruined Martial Art Judo.


I agree with this, I know what you mean. Not only the things you mentioned above but due to short periods of fighting time on the ground and the need for constant attacking on the feet or you get penalized people's technique tends to get sloppy as many usually train for Judo in a Judo match not as a martial art.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

Judoka said:


> I agree with this, I know what you mean. Not only the things you mentioned above but due to short periods of fighting time on the ground and the need for constant attacking on the feet or you get penalized people's technique tends to get sloppy as many usually train for Judo in a Judo match not as a martial art.


Infact, BJJ is closer to original Kodokan judo than the modern olympic judo. But I've heard that IJF is gonna make some changes in rules to involve more ground fighting. I hope that happens.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

Judoka said:


> Kesa Gatame is very hard to escape from. I hate getting pinned in Judo because instead of your loss being a show of great skill from your opponent and it's over in a split second. With Osaekomi Waza(Pinning techniques) you lay there for 25 seconds with someone lying on top of you and you can't get out.
> 
> However there are ways to escape pins.


yep , using ur hips to make a space ! , but if he locks u hard and his a black belt in judo ur don =)


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

Freelancer said:


> Judo IMO has the best takedowns of all martial arts. But, it relies on the gi too much. And not to mention the removal of leglocks and necklocks over the years to make it a more safe sport. Sport Judo has ruined Martial Art Judo.


They still teach all of that in judo but you have to go to a good school to learn it. More traditional. All of that technique is still within the system but its in the Kata. If you look at the kodokan book when they show the katas they show transitions from throws to various submitions not allowed in competition. 

Judo teaches Kicks, punches, banned throws like kani asami and kani basami as well as leg locks. People dont learn them because they usually dont ask or arent training with a higher level black belt. I trained under this old guy while I was in college that learned over in japan after ww2.

Guy taught me a lot of neat stuff. I learned about leg locks, knee bars etc before I even knew what BJJ was.


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

> *The Bloody Elbow Judo Chop: Sumi-Gaeshi from Kimura Grip to Armbar *
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From:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/10/1/625893/the-bloody-elbow-judo-chop​ 
Kickass discussion fellas. :thumbsup:​ 
Thought this was the best place to put this article.

EDIT: Here's the video that's supposed to be at the bottom:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVE82gH-v-g​


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

mrmyz said:


> They still teach all of that in judo but you have to go to a good school to learn it. More traditional. All of that technique is still within the system but its in the Kata. If you look at the kodokan book when they show the katas they show transitions from throws to various submitions not allowed in competition.
> 
> Judo teaches Kicks, punches, banned throws like kani asami and kani basami as well as leg locks. People dont learn them because they usually dont ask or arent training with a higher level black belt. I trained under this old guy while I was in college that learned over in japan after ww2.
> 
> Guy taught me a lot of neat stuff. I learned about leg locks, knee bars etc before I even knew what BJJ was.


Well that's all good, but I doubt that many trainers in Serbia are interested in Judo techniques that are banned in competition, plus what good does it do for me if I know a leglock and I can't use it in randori? That's why I plan to study Judo, hopefully get a black belt and move on to bjj. It would be good if Kosen judo school opens in Serbia.ray01:

PS: Thanks for the thread Walker. Rarely we can discuss about judo on this forum


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

Freelancer said:


> Judo IMO has the best takedowns of all martial arts. But, it relies on the gi too much. And not to mention the removal of leglocks and necklocks over the years to make it a more safe sport. Sport Judo has ruined Martial Art Judo.



Not to metion that competing judo takes away the ground game. As soon as the fight goes to the ground, the ref stands them up. Judo for MMA should go back to the original Judo.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

valrond said:


> Not to metion that competing judo takes away the ground game. As soon as the fight goes to the ground, the ref stands them up. Judo for MMA should go back to the original Judo.


Incorrect. Competition Judo has a ground game the same way BJJ has, but in order to stay on the ground you have to work. If you can't improve your position or you stop working, the ref will stand you up.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

yea agree . i dont see Sub in judo match every day ... but u can pull it of and win by IPon


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

dontazo said:


> yea agree . i dont see Sub in judo match every day ... but u can pull it of and win by IPon


Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u41omoNO4U
Some moves huh?


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

mrmyz said:


> maybee if you have low level judo. If your executing the technique correctly you will have full control. Most throws put you in position for kesagatame or cross body. You forget that judo is all about takedowns and positioning.


I started Judo a month ago and my dad came 2nd in the Egyptian nationals back in 72. I know a fair share about it but I have been wrestling all my life, and I can take basically everyone in my class down at will. I stick to wrestling offers much more control then Judo, which is essentially just about getting your opponent to the ground, not really about following up which wrestling provides.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

i dont agree as i said before judo guys like to hold their opponents down , if u hold ur opponent on their back for 25 sec u win by IPON


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

GKY said:


> I started Judo a month ago and my dad came 2nd in the Egyptian nationals back in 72. I know a fair share about it but I have been wrestling all my life, and I can take basically everyone in my class down at will. I stick to wrestling offers much more control then Judo, which is essentially just about getting your opponent to the ground, not really about following up which wrestling provides.


Yes, but they have submission holds. You as a wrestler don't. I think it gives judo considerable advantage against wrestling.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

i agree imo legit judo black belt will destroy wrestler


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

Freelancer said:


> Well that's all good, but I doubt that many trainers in Serbia are interested in Judo techniques that are banned in competition, plus what good does it do for me if I know a leglock and I can't use it in randori? That's why I plan to study Judo, hopefully get a black belt and move on to bjj. It would be good if Kosen judo school opens in Serbia.ray01:
> 
> PS: Thanks for the thread Walker. Rarely we can discuss about judo on this forum


dont you guys have ***** in servia. IMO ***** is the most effective martial art out there. The only reason I dont train in it is because there isnt any places around me


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

valrond said:


> Not to metion that competing judo takes away the ground game. As soon as the fight goes to the ground, the ref stands them up. Judo for MMA should go back to the original Judo.


I dont know what your talking about I have won half of my judo wins on the ground by either pin or sub



dontazo said:


> i dont agree as i said before judo guys like to hold their opponents down , if u hold ur opponent on their back for 25 sec u win by IPON


judos all about control, If I can control you on the ground for 25 secounds imagine what I can do to you if I want to start striking. IMO judo is an awesome style to learn if you want to g and p


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

mrmyz said:


> dont you guys have ***** in servia. IMO ***** is the most effective martial art out there. The only reason I dont train in it is because there isnt any places around me


There was a ***** school in Belgrade(my city) before but now the only school is in Novi Sad. 
I originally wanted to train BJJ because I believe it's the most effective, but there aren't any good schools. There is only one black belt in Serbia and yet he won't teach begginers, his students do that job.
***** is very good, they don't have as many techniques as judo but they concentrate more on ground fighting, cos there is no Ipon victory, and they have vicious leglocks. But their lack of choking techniques is a big minus.


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

Freelancer said:


> There was a ***** school in Belgrade(my city) before but now the only school is in Novi Sad.
> I originally wanted to train BJJ because I believe it's the most effective, but there aren't any good schools. There is only one black belt in Serbia and yet he won't teach begginers, his students do that job.
> ***** is very good, they don't have as many techniques as judo but they concentrate more on ground fighting, cos there is no Ipon victory, and they have vicious leglocks. But their lack of choking techniques is a big minus.


I mean the way bjj is organized as long as the student is a belt ahead of you or 2 preferably you will learn at the same rate as if the teacher taught it. Up to blue belt level you could easily learn all the technique and skills from a purple or brown belt. Purple belt you would need to learn from a brown belt or black belt. This is all of course with the sensei saying that you are at the skill level to move up of course. 

From purple belt and up I have noticed that its more on the student then it is the sensei. Once you get to purple you have everything you need to learn on your own. You could even break away and just train with people on your own if you wanted to but by that time you could probably directly learn from him so it wouldnt be a problem.


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

Freelancer said:


> Yes, but they have submission holds. You as a wrestler don't. I think it gives judo considerable advantage against wrestling.


I never claimed to. I was just stating when it comes to fighting wrestling is the best method of takedowns, not Judo. Judo is effective yes, and can make differences, but Judo isn't as good as BJJ in terms of the ground game, nor is it as good as wrestling in the takedown aspect (see Karo vs. GSP).

If you want to talk about overall fighting then ***** will beat Judo as well. Not saying Judo isn't efficient or a good martial art to know, just saying it's not the best.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

whats best than? 
MRMyz yea i know especially gezakatame .. if u know that ur opponent will struggle a lot


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

Freelancer said:


> Incorrect. Competition Judo has a ground game the same way BJJ has, but in order to stay on the ground you have to work. If you can't improve your position or you stop working, the ref will stand you up.


I know it has a ground game, but the refs rarely let them go at it on the ground, it doesn't take more than 5-10 seconds to stand them up.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

GKY said:


> I was just stating when it comes to fighting wrestling is the best method of takedowns, not Judo. Judo is effective yes, and can make differences, but Judo isn't as good as BJJ in terms of the ground game, nor is it as good as wrestling in the takedown aspect (see Karo vs. GSP).


That had a lot more to do with GSP's sheer athleticism than wrestling vs judo. GSP actually wasn't that great of a wrestler back then. And ctually there is a significant amount of overlap between Judo and wrestling in the areas of hip tosses. Although I'm not a big believer in leg shoots (knees are way too dangerous imho) I'd agree that wrestling is a better background for MMA because of the added value of the emphasis on top control.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

GKY said:


> I never claimed to. I was just stating when it comes to fighting wrestling is the best method of takedowns, not Judo. Judo is effective yes, and can make differences, but Judo isn't as good as BJJ in terms of the ground game, nor is it as good as wrestling in the takedown aspect (see Karo vs. GSP).
> 
> If you want to talk about overall fighting then ***** will beat Judo as well. Not saying Judo isn't efficient or a good martial art to know, just saying it's not the best.





valrond said:


> I know it has a ground game, but the refs rarely let them go at it on the ground, it doesn't take more than 5-10 seconds to stand them up.


GKY, I didn't mean you ab personem, I meant judo is better than wrestling in overall because it includes submissions. Pure judoka beats pure wrestler any day of the week. About ***** beats judo thing, i'm not so sure. Judo has better standing techniques and on the ground they are somewhat equal, cos ***** guys don't know chokes and judokas don't know leglocks.

Valrond, didn't you read my post? The ref lets them on the ground as long as they work. They often want to be stood up so they don't work. That's why you see so many stand ups.


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## mrmyz (Nov 23, 2006)

valrond said:


> I know it has a ground game, but the refs rarely let them go at it on the ground, it doesn't take more than 5-10 seconds to stand them up.


it depends on what the two people are doing if your both not working then theres no point


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

mrmyz said:


> it depends on what the two people are doing if your both not working then theres no point


Well, I guess you didn't see the Olympics. Anyway, I have talked to my Judo teacher, who is a friend of mine (a 4th dan) and he has told me they want to make it more entertaining, thus, they prefer to stand them up as soon as they hit the ground unless something really quick happens.


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

Judo makes a difference in ANY sport outside of Judo. I was wrestling some guy today at practice and he had me from behind, but at an angle and I decided to try a hip throw on him and my back landed squarely on his chest and it knocked the wind out of him. He stopped dead in his tracks. 

I need to learn me some more Judo!


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

valrond said:


> Well, I guess you didn't see the Olympics. Anyway, I have talked to my Judo teacher, who is a friend of mine (a 4th dan) and he has told me *they want to make it more entertaining*, thus, they prefer to stand them up as soon as they hit the ground unless something really quick happens.


That's true, but the ref doesn't have the right to stand them up if they are working. So because they need to work a lot of submissions in Judo happen very quickly. Sometimes it looks quite good but it takes away the strategy a bit.


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