# Why Isn't There Any Kung Fu?



## Dtwizzy2k5

One thing ive always wondered as a hardcore UFC fan is why you dont see more fighters with Kung Fu styles. From everything ive read and heard it seems as though Kung Fu has historically been considered a very effective style and there are many legends and stories about Shaolin monks and whatnot. 
So why aren't there any kung fu fighters in the UFC? Is it because kung fu wouldnt succeed in the UFC? Is it because Dana White doesnt want to sign those fighters? I cant figure it out...
Also, how do you guys think a kung fu fighter would do in the UFC (assuming he trained in jiu jitsu and had solid sub defense)?


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## somethingclever

not effective in real hand to hand combat.


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## BrianRClover

Kung Fu is pretty much nutralized once any form of grappling is involved.


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## drockh

Yeah i'd say it's more for looks than actually being effective


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## diemos

somethingclever said:


> not effective in real hand to hand combat.


I don't know about that. Kung Fu is pretty effective. Did you see Matrix? LOL


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## Emericanaddict

Just go have a look on youtube and search MMA vs Kung Fu or Jiu Jitsu vs Kung Fu and you'll find your answer very quickly.


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## HeavyRob

just to be "that" guy...








(it was my original style... gotta support it a little)


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## randyspankstito

I'd imagine that somebody who started training in Kung Fu at a youngish age, and used it as a base could do well in mma, as long as they picked up some jitz and wrestling along the way. 

Kind of how Lyoto has a karate base, but uses ring craft and and has takedown defense.

You can't be good at just one thing, you have to at the very least, be able to defend takedowns and submissions if you are going to utilize a striking discipline.


Oh by the way, that was a hillarious video. That guy realized he'd picked a fight with the wrong dude the minute that guy went into his "tiger" stance or whatever that was. lol "keep throwing at that fucker frankie!!!"


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## Bradysupafan

I think it is because many of the strikes in Kung Fu are illegal in MMA. The UFC does NOT want to be responsible if a Kung Fu guy hits a fighter with one of his nerve strikes and hurts him bad or even kills him.


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## somethingclever

Bradysupafan said:


> I think it is because many of the strikes in Kung Fu are illegal in MMA. The UFC does NOT want to be responsible if a Kung Fu guy hits a fighter with one of his nerve strikes and hurts him bad or even kills him.


Imagine the liabilities if a stray fireball or energy vortex is loosed into the unsuspecting crowd!!!


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## HeavyRob

heehee

gonna be the other "that" guy now...






booyah


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## GStP

HeavyRob said:


> heehee
> 
> gonna be the other "that" guy now...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> booyah


That is classic!

What is up with the people falling down without being hit? Is that some fake Kung Fu crap?


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## diemos

its the power of Kung Fu, they get knocked out by the wind. lol


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## Flak

...because it doesn't really work.


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## Evil Ira

cos its all style. that vid proved it.


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## randyspankstito

HeavyRob said:


> heehee
> 
> gonna be the other "that" guy now...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> booyah


Oh man, that's some good stuff right there. He was all like 

"wait, he actually hit me!!"


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## HeavyRob

it _can _work. but it depends so much on the other fighter, how it's applied, etc, etc, that it almost doesn't matter anymore. You can win by using kung-fu in street fights. You can also lose. 

This is silly. One style alone doesn't survive in the octagon anymore. I don't know why kung-fu gets such a bad rep. 

...maybe it's cuz of all the blind advocates saying it's the hands-down best style. no. that's almost definitely it.


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## Liddellianenko

It's been said. It's movie martial arts, choreography and gymnastics ... doesn't work. 2000 year old wives tales don't make for convincing evidence ... if you believe those, might as well try sacrificing goats blood in fire to take your opponent out. That first video doesn't prove much.. that chump was scared by the posturing and didn't know how to fight, the "kung fu master" just looked like an idiot and caught him with a silly windmilling punch that had nothing to do with any martial skill. Anybody that knew how to fight and wasn't scared by the silly poses would've kicked his ass. Like the second video.

Looks very nice for movies though, and I am definitely a fan in that.


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## Aaronyman

but but....shaolin monks would destroy anderson silva

:sarcastic09:


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## joppp

Aaronyman said:


> but but....shaolin monks would destroy anderson silva
> 
> :sarcastic09:


The sad part is: There are peeple who have watched some National Geographic documentary or something who actually believe that...

To answer the OP: If I am not mistaken, some Kung Fu is practiced very similarly to kickboxing. So, as a standup art, that could wor, I guess. But as for the more traditional Kung Fu, I doubt it's bettter than Muay Thai.


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## Tommo565

I am sure I have heard a UFC fighter introduced as a Jeet-Kun-Do fighter before. Anyone got any ideas who?


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## MLD

Yeah movie-style kung fu is best used in the movies. One thing I noticed when taking TKD is that during sparring sessions people using TKD style/stance didn't know how to deal with someone using perhaps a traditional boxing stance. The moves and stances of TKD were best suited for an opponent who also used those same moves/stances. I'm sure it is the same with many other arts. 

In MMA, with the variety of influences, a one-dimensional art form would be very limiting. Even Bruce Lee, who was a Kung Fu master, recognized and adopted more effective forms for practical combat. And also, Machida for instance with a strong Karate base, abandons the traditional Karate stance in order to have an illusive fighting style. I believe some traditional Karate philosophy is to "absorb" the strike or utilize strong blocks to negate strikes. Machida isn't absorbing or blocking he is alluding.

Those videos were entertaining. The first guy was over dramatizing his moves, and all it did was freak out his opponent. His punch wasn't a result of Kung Fu training. In the second video, the idiocy of the students reacting to his moves was the only thing surpassing the idiocy of the master beleiving he actually had fighting skill against a trained opponent.


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## Aaronyman

joppp said:


> The sad part is: There are peeple who have watched some National Geographic documentary or something who actually believe that...


yes i know! it's pathetic. i've had debates with people who firmly believe this. anderson silva would knock them out in less than 40 seconds everytime i reckon.

it's more of gymnastics than actual fighting. a more extreme version of tae kwon do.


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## HeavyRob

Tommo565 said:


> I am sure I have heard a UFC fighter introduced as a Jeet-Kun-Do fighter before. Anyone got any ideas who?


Jeet Kun Do was like Bruce Lee's vision of MMA. Whatever works, whatever gets the job done, throw it in the mix.

(500th post, baby)


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## 6toes

Tommo565 said:


> I am sure I have heard a UFC fighter introduced as a Jeet-Kun-Do fighter before. Anyone got any ideas who?


I'm pretty sure its Tim Boetsch. If not, then yeah I remember seeing the same thing but I'm pretty sure it was Boetsch.


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## BadTrip

somethingclever said:


> Imagine the liabilities if a stray fireball or energy vortex is loosed into the unsuspecting crowd!!!


ROFL!!:thumb02: mad props!


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## name goes here

If Gouging were allowed some form of Kung-fu would be involved.
Machida has made some stuff we didn't assume would work in mma - work in mma though - so maybe eventually we'll see some kung-fu in mma.


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## xeberus

I am ready for the negs before I even say this, but please correct me throw videos in my face etc to prove me wrong.

kung fu is like most karate and TKD. It looks pretty and it'll do the trick against less physically fit opponents who have no fighting experience. But outside of that its not that great for combat. Completely neutralized by BJJ or wreslting, and while each have some effective aspects overall are less effective than most other fighting styles like boxing, kickboxing, MT etc


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## frenchts

As much as i respect acrobatic and show styles, i totally agree, they could be fairly ineffective in full contact fighting
As far as Kung Fu, the full contact branch of the style San Shou (Sanda)is taught to the soldiers. Apparently the chinese military saw the same problem and developed a less flashy version with the incorporation of takedowns...
When we studied in Beijing, they actually divided the class based on diff. kung fu styles and the full contact students were seperate.


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## Javelin

HeavyRob said:


> just to be "that" guy...
> 
> 
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> 
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> (it was my original style... gotta support it a little)


LOL @ the girl in the background going "Ohhh shittttt" when the white guy gets into his stance.


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## HeavyRob

when it comes down to it, there's a difference between a martial art and a martial sport. Kung Fu is an art, not entirely applicable to the arena. MMA and Muay Thai are sports. That's the best overall answer I got.


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## UseOf_A_Weapon

6toes said:


> I'm pretty sure its Tim Boetsch. If not, then yeah I remember seeing the same thing but I'm pretty sure it was Boetsch.


No, it was Ben (whatsisname) from the Ultimate Fighter. The dude with the mad mutton chops. I wanna say it was the serra/ hughes season? I know he wore the orange and navy jersey. But Yeah, he was the JKD fighter. 

As far as Kung fu in MMA, our only point of reference that anyone has any real sort of familiarity with is Cung Le. He fights san shou, which is a sporterized version of Wu Shu kung fu. He undoubtedly has little to no ground game since he did not go after Frank on the mat when they fought, but based on his stand up and his really really impressive take downs, I'd say Kung Fu has potential to strengthen a fighter's arsenal- but Kung Fu alone is about as useful as being just a wrestler or just a boxer.


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## Liddellianenko

UseOf_A_Weapon said:


> No, it was Ben (whatsisname) from the Ultimate Fighter. The dude with the mad mutton chops. I wanna say it was the serra/ hughes season? I know he wore the orange and navy jersey. But Yeah, he was the JKD fighter.
> 
> As far as Kung fu in MMA, our only point of reference that anyone has any real sort of familiarity with is Cung Le. He fights san shou, which is a sporterized version of Wu Shu kung fu. He undoubtedly has little to no ground game since he did not go after Frank on the mat when they fought, but based on his stand up and his really really impressive take downs, I'd say Kung Fu has potential to strengthen a fighter's arsenal- but Kung Fu alone is about as useful as being just a wrestler or just a boxer.


True, San Shou is about the only version of Kung Fu that works .. but it borrows heavily from Muay Thai, Boxing and Greco-Roman wrestling (those throws are straight out of Greco, no Kung Fu has anything like that, Wushu included). So it is more MMA than Kung Fu. However, it is indeed an effective and upcoming style that incorporates many aspects of Kung Fu such as the side kick, scissor leg takedowns, kung fu style cut kicks, and short combo punches occasionally. So yeah, if you're looking for an effective and tested version of Kung Fu, San Shou is it, and when mastered it's pretty devastating as well as quite beautiful looking when done well 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r55mxK2xKc


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## HeavyRob

Liddellianenko said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r55mxK2xKc


good find. that entertained me immensely. I shall rep you now.


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## newfish

*Clearing up some confusion*

You really have to look at both the history of various martial arts, as well as how they are practiced. For example, Aikido is actually the "martial" form of ju-jitsu (that's simplifying a bit, but bare with me). Many of the techniques in Aikido were meant to be applied on the battlefield, when swords or other weapons were involved, as well as people coming at one another unexpectedly/quickly. Obviously this doesn't apply so well in a ring, with no weapons and two fighters facing one another in a cage. 

Many of the acrobatic feats in kung-fu are elaborations on core techniques. In other words, it's not usually practical to do a spinning backflip uppercut or whatever. But, simplified, the motions of kung-fu and other martial arts are effective, and use the same physical principles as any other martial art (parrying, body position, kick form, etc.). 


Lastly, sport fighting is just a different game. You can't throw certain strikes, have to fight for X minutes (you can win by points, remember), and your opponent is always right there, facing you, in a ring. The whole philosophy is different. 

That said, though he's a karate fighter, I think the most interesting fighter to watch right now (in regards to this question) is Machida, because he effectively uses many of those martial arts basics you never really see (note how he parries).


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## TheNegation

Bradysupafan said:


> I think it is because many of the strikes in Kung Fu are illegal in MMA. The UFC does NOT want to be responsible if a Kung Fu guy hits a fighter with one of his nerve strikes and hurts him bad or even kills him.


This is reality, nerve strikes don't work here.


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## Liddellianenko

HeavyRob said:


> good find. that entertained me immensely. I shall rep you now.


Thanks .. keep in mind that's a demonstration and not an actual fight (hence the no ref in the ring) which is why it looks so much sweeter, but pretty impressive. He does pull a lot of that stuff off in actual MMA and KB fights too.


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## omgrunaway

People who think kung fu would actually work by itself are the same ones who think bruce lee would actually whoop mike tysons ass.

I call those people "retards."


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## HeavyRob

Liddellianenko said:


> Thanks .. keep in mind that's a demonstration and not an actual fight (hence the no ref in the ring) which is why it looks so much sweeter, but pretty impressive. He does pull a lot of that stuff off in actual MMA and KB fights too.


ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...


It just lost a lot of sweetness value. I was like, "holy GOD!" that other guy must be _humilited!_

guess I'll have to neg rep you now...


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## Tyzzler

UseOf_A_Weapon said:


> No, it was Ben (whatsisname) from the Ultimate Fighter. The dude with the mad mutton chops. I wanna say it was the serra/ hughes season? I know he wore the orange and navy jersey. But Yeah, he was the JKD fighter.


"Killa B" Ben Saunders I think that fought Dan Barrera at the finale


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## DrFunk

People need to realize that Kung Fu is just a general term utilized for hundreds of different martial arts. Some that are a way health art like Tai Chi to the artsy form of Wu Shou. To the more street fight based arts like Wing Chun.

The learning curve to establish a strong foundation just takes far too much time for a serious fighter to invest themselves into it. Jujitsu, Kickboxing, Wrestling are all arts that show significant improvements for a short amount of time.

Just because the current MMA trend fighters tends to have those 3 discipline as their base does not make them ultimate fighters. I just find it sad that people feel the UFC is real fighting. It's a sport. Lot more contact and violent and diverse then any single discipline but still bound by rules and regulations.

There's a lot of things that are not allowed in MMA (for obvious reasons). Most of the combat oriented Kung Fu arts were not designed to be a "sports" art like what TKD has become. Some of those arts are designed to kill, not to "spar" with your opponents. Which is prob another reason why we never see real kung fu practitioners


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## randyspankstito

DrFunk said:


> People need to realize that Kung Fu is just a general term utilized for hundreds of different martial arts. Some that are a way health art like Tai Chi to the artsy form of Wu Shou. To the more street fight based arts like Wing Chun.


Yeah that's great, can I get an order of egg rolls with that shit? Oh yeah, gimme some ******* moo shoo pork while your at it little man.


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## Servatose

It's stupid for anyone to pretend they know whether or not it'd work. There are many styles out there that are extremely legitmate martial arts styles that simply don't appear in MMA, does this mean they're ineffective? Sumo wrestling for example. Lyoto Machida is a Sumo champion, and you can see his sumo techniques in a lot of his matches. But because it's not popular in MMA that doesn't make it ineffective. Until someone who practices Kung Fu is successful you can't deem in ineffective. In my opinion it's mostly dependent on the person using the style.


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## Rally Sport

I guess, in my opinion, you need a reality check if you think that traditional martial arts have a place in MMA. They call it mixed martial arts for a reason -- you take the good out of different arts and leave the bad, if possible. It's not a good idea to go into a fight being a "pure" practitioner of a single martial art. For example, have you ever wondered what would happen if an elite Tae Kwon Do black belt fought someone in MMA? Well..





And that's the case in point.


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## Robopencil

DrFunk said:


> People need to realize that Kung Fu is just a general term utilized for hundreds of different martial arts. Some that are a way health art like Tai Chi to the artsy form of Wu Shou. To the more street fight based arts like Wing Chun.
> 
> The learning curve to establish a strong foundation just takes far too much time for a serious fighter to invest themselves into it. Jujitsu, Kickboxing, Wrestling are all arts that show significant improvements for a short amount of time.
> 
> Just because the current MMA trend fighters tends to have those 3 discipline as their base does not make them ultimate fighters. I just find it sad that people feel the UFC is real fighting. It's a sport. Lot more contact and violent and diverse then any single discipline but still bound by rules and regulations.
> 
> There's a lot of things that are not allowed in MMA (for obvious reasons). Most of the combat oriented Kung Fu arts were not designed to be a "sports" art like what TKD has become. Some of those arts are designed to kill, not to "spar" with your opponents. Which is prob another reason why we never see real kung fu practitioners


Sure, it's still a sport, but it's as close to a real fight as you can legally get. And frankly, Mixed Martial Artists are the best fighters in the world.

Sparring is one of the main reasons that arts like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, Judo, *****, etc are so effective. The fighters test their style on a regular basis. It's the reason why I've never seen a Kung Fu practitioner fight at a high level in MMA.

Saying that it takes short amounts of time to become good in the common martial arts that make up MMA is a joke. 

On average it takes about 10 years to become a black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, the same goes for Judo.

To reach a high level of skill in martial arts like Muay Thai and wrestling requires a similar amount of time.

If you like at professional mixed martial artists, at the top end of MMA, a large majority of the fighters began training when they were 7, 8, 9, etc. They've had time to train multiple martial arts to high levels of skill, and in fact, have trained arts like BJJ and Muay Thai for longer than 10 years in many cases.

Kung Fu is not a more dangerous martial art. What does that make Muay Thai, a pillow fight? It's one of the most brutal martial arts out there.

What's BJJ? It's capable of being gentle, but it doesn't have to be. Pretty much every technique in BJJ will either break a bone, dislocate a joint, tear a muscle, etc. 

If you release a choke after your opponent loses consciousness, they'll be fine every single time. If you hold the same choke after they lose consciousness, they'll die.

I respect all martial arts, but the reason we don't see Kung Fu in MMA is because Muay Thai, Boxing, BJJ, Judo, etc are more effective.


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## The_Senator

We need to see one of them in the octagon before jumping to any conclusions. Maybe some day some chinese dude will be knocking everyone out with his kung fu background, and everyone is like, "WOW, kung fu is legit!"


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## Buckingham

Rally Sport said:


> I guess, in my opinion, you need a reality check if you think that traditional martial arts have a place in MMA. They call it mixed martial arts for a reason -- you take the good out of different arts and leave the bad, if possible. It's not a good idea to go into a fight being a "pure" practitioner of a single martial art. For example, have you ever wondered what would happen if an elite Tae Kwon Do black belt fought someone in MMA? Well..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that's the case in point.


Look like the guy bend his windpipe.


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## The_Senator

By the way, kung fu school includes one of the oldest traditional fighting styles, TIGER CLAW, can you imagine someone doing lethal scratches in UFC? The point is that some styles were meant for totally different purposes. It's like forums, this one was created for people interested in MMA, but not in cosmice explosins in distant galaxis or something else, alothough, all of them have all lot in common.


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## Robopencil

The_Senator said:


> By the way, kung fu school includes one of the oldest traditional fighting styles, TIGER CLAW, can you imagine someone doing lethal scratches in UFC? The point is that some styles were meant for totally different purposes. It's like forums, this one was created for people interested in MMA, but not in cosmice explosins in distant galaxis or something else, alothough, all of them have all lot in common.


How lethal can a scratch be? :laugh:


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## Rygu

HeavyRob said:


> just to be "that" guy...
> 
> 
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> 
> (it was my original style... gotta support it a little)


Omg that had me howling, unbelievable. 

Ironic about how i'm going to comment on his very homosexual stance, but amazingly enough that dumbass he ko'd actually got scared from it. All that stance is, is an attempt to imtimidate, to let the person know you punch air in repetitions.

That dick in the stance threw garbage when it came down to it, they both kept swinging and missing...then dude caught him with a good haymaker, assisted by skinny guys noobish head movement.


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## AdRath

randyspankstito said:


> Oh by the way, that was a hillarious video. That guy realized he'd picked a fight with the wrong dude the minute that guy went into his "tiger" stance or whatever that was. lol "keep throwing at that fucker frankie!!!"


I think he realized he picked the wrong fight cause he can't fight worth shit. Neither of those 2 clowns were quality fighters.

Kung-fu is effective against those un-educated in the martial arts but when the other guy knows something more than thug-fu, Kung-fu loses its effectiveness fast.


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## swpthleg

Tommo565 said:


> I am sure I have heard a UFC fighter introduced as a Jeet-Kun-Do fighter before. Anyone got any ideas who?


I don't know if he was ever introduced in the octagon this way, but I thought I remembered Luke Cummo talking about his JKD training on The Ultimate Fighter.


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## Pokkie

I won't delve into whether or not kung fu is effective or not cause quite frankly I wouldn't really know. However what I do know is that a lot of the techniques used are considered illegal in MMA. 

For example: Groin strikes. I remember watching a demonstration by a shaolin monk, wasn't sure of what martial art it was but he started off with an inside leg kick, followed up by the jardine junk attack finishing off with a straight punch to the midsection (but presumably the face since the guy would be leaning over after the 2nd hit)

Another example: we see this in a lot of martial arts movies, the mantis stance/tiger stance/hawk etc. Gouging, scratching, clawing. 

Almost all of what I've seen in martial arts is mostly illegal in MMA today for rather obvious reasons. The only kinda measuring stick we have is the UFC in the early days where Keith was doing pretty well with his sac attacks except against royce.


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## Suvaco

Could you imagine what any decent fighter with Muay Thai training would do to these guys' legs?


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## cdnbaron

This:


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## ESPADA9

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> One thing ive always wondered as a hardcore UFC fan is why you dont see more fighters with Kung Fu styles. From everything ive read and heard it seems as though Kung Fu has historically been considered a very effective style and *there are many legends and stories* about Shaolin monks and whatnot.
> So why aren't there any kung fu fighters in the UFC? Is it because kung fu wouldnt succeed in the UFC? Is it because Dana White doesnt want to sign those fighters? I cant figure it out...
> Also, how do you guys think a kung fu fighter would do in the UFC (assuming he trained in jiu jitsu and had solid sub defense)?


I think that pretty much explains it.

Adequate "self defense" martial art, not so good for MMA and full contact vale tudo style fighting against a well trained opponent.


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## TraMaI

HeavyRob said:


> just to be "that" guy...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (it was my original style... gotta support it a little)


to be fair, that dude does NOT know how to fight. He swings wildly with no aim. I'd kill him in a fight lol.


Pardon if it's rude but isn't Kung Fu mroe of a show art for things like XMA?



swpthleg said:


> I don't know if he was ever introduced in the octagon this way, but I thought I remembered Luke Cummo talking about his JKD training on The Ultimate Fighter.


Ben Saunders is introduced as a JKD practitioner


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## TraMaI

delete plox double post


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## Robopencil

Pokkie said:


> I won't delve into whether or not kung fu is effective or not cause quite frankly I wouldn't really know. However what I do know is that a lot of the techniques used are considered illegal in MMA.
> 
> For example: Groin strikes. I remember watching a demonstration by a shaolin monk, wasn't sure of what martial art it was but he started off with an inside leg kick, followed up by the jardine junk attack finishing off with a straight punch to the midsection (but presumably the face since the guy would be leaning over after the 2nd hit)
> 
> Another example: we see this in a lot of martial arts movies, the mantis stance/tiger stance/hawk etc. Gouging, scratching, clawing.
> 
> Almost all of what I've seen in martial arts is mostly illegal in MMA today for rather obvious reasons. The only kinda measuring stick we have is the UFC in the early days where Keith was doing pretty well with his sac attacks except against royce.


But it doesn't take secret kungu fu scrolls to learn how to kick someone in the nuts or gouge their eyes out. 

Frankly I'd rather train in a martial art that is effective without dirty techniques. Then if I need to, add those dirty techniques later.

If you take a a good boxer or a muay thai fighter, and tell them to fight cleanly. And then take another striker with mid-level skills and tell them to fight dirty. The boxer or muay thai fighter with better skills is still going to win.


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## Pokkie

Robopencil said:


> But it doesn't take secret kungu fu scrolls to learn how to kick someone in the nuts or gouge their eyes out.
> 
> Frankly I'd rather train in a martial art that is effective without dirty techniques. Then if I need to, add those dirty techniques later.
> 
> If you take a a good boxer or a muay thai fighter, and tell them to fight cleanly. And then take another striker with mid-level skills and tell them to fight dirty. The boxer or muay thai fighter with better skills is still going to win.


That whole secret scroll thing is just something in the movies. Anyway, I find that illegal strikes are probably the best for self defense purposes. As i said I'm not the candidate to go into this kinda comparison because I haven't seen much of kung fu but i see illegal strikes akin to having more tools and options available to you; things that can immediately disable your opponents like groin strikes. 

For example, in boxing, elbows are considered dirty, but as mma fans we recognize that elbows are essential for in fighters and gnp. 

P.S: I don't want anyone to think that I would like clawing, scratching, gouging, groin strikes to be legal in MMA. But in my opinion, when ur learning martial arts as a means of self defense, you should learn that which is most applicable.


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## Emericanaddict

swpthleg said:


> I don't know if he was ever introduced in the octagon this way, but I thought I remembered Luke Cummo talking about his JKD training on The Ultimate Fighter.


Dont know about on TUF but Tim Boetsch is supposedly a JKD student and Rogan was all over that in his first fight in the UFC.


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## Robopencil

Pokkie said:


> That whole secret scroll thing is just something in the movies. Anyway, I find that illegal strikes are probably the best for self defense purposes. As i said I'm not the candidate to go into this kinda comparison because I haven't seen much of kung fu but i see illegal strikes akin to having more tools and options available to you; things that can immediately disable your opponents like groin strikes.
> 
> For example, in boxing, elbows are considered dirty, but as mma fans we recognize that elbows are essential for in fighters and gnp.
> 
> P.S: I don't want anyone to think that I would like clawing, scratching, gouging, groin strikes to be legal in MMA. But in my opinion, when ur learning martial arts as a means of self defense, you should learn that which is most applicable.


I understand what you mean. I'm just saying that you don't really need to train for years to learn how to kick someone in the groin. So you might as well spend those years learning a martial art like Muay Thai. Then if you're in a life or death situation, add groin kicks or (insert dirty tactic here).


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## Drogo

Robopencil said:


> I understand what you mean. I'm just saying that you don't really need to train for years to learn how to kick someone in the groin. So you might as well spend those years learning a martial art like Muay Thai. Then if you're in a life or death situation, add groin kicks or (insert dirty tactic here).


Groin strikes are hugely over rated anyway. They are super easy to block (just have to turn your hip) and even a clean one isn't a fight ending thing. It hurts, not saying it doesn't, but someone you are in a fight with who has their adrenaline pumping could easily ignore it. If you catch someone unawares it would probably drop them but so would a punch to the jaw. 

A throat or eye strike is more effective but again, small target so low success rate.


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## AdRath

Drogo said:


> Groin strikes are hugely over rated anyway. A throat or eye strike is more effective but again, small target so low success rate.


Just don't get confussed and go for a throat or eye strike with your groin. 

well unless she is cute.


----------



## leifdawg

Tommo565 said:


> I am sure I have heard a UFC fighter introduced as a Jeet-Kun-Do fighter before. Anyone got any ideas who?


Ben Saunders. Ironically, he dominated his last match at the Fight for the Troops with a wicked Thai clinch.



Liddellianenko said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r55mxK2xKc


That might have been the worst takedown defense I have ever seen.


----------



## Liddellianenko

leifdawg said:


> That might have been the worst takedown defense I have ever seen.


Yeah, I figured out after I posted that it's actually a demonstration and not a real fight. That's why the ref is mysteriously missing. Deceptive, kinda annoying but I guess it still gives a nice picture of the stuff in it.


----------



## TraMaI

already posted it was ben >.<


that video was awesome lol


----------



## donttouchthat

Kung Fu in MMA, probably not the most effective. But that's not what it was meant for. Kung Fu was not designed to be a sport like BJJ/Wrestling/Boxing/Muay Thai.

But those of you who say Kung Fu is a joke and not applicable to real life? You're clueless. I wrestled all through highschool, I've been kickboxing for the last 13 years and picked up BJJ in the last 3 years. My brother has a similar background but also trains in Siu Lum Pai Kung Fu. If you think it's not applicable to real life, you probably just don't have any real knowledge of it. 

Similar to the way Muay Thai practitioners strengthen their shins, Kung Fu artists strengthen their forearms and shins. Repetitious beating and clashing to make their bones more dense for when they block. Ever throw a bunch and get blocked by one of these guys? It really hurts. 

They also strengthen their finger tips using sand, then gravel, then wood and on to concrete. Why would they spend so much time strengthening their finger tips? A lot of their attacks are to the eyes. Then you look at other forms which people think are ridiculous, like the tiger claw. One form of attack actually spreads all fingers and rakes down the eyes, so just in case you miss the eyes, you scratch their eyelids. Have you ever had your eye lids scratched? Makes it very difficult to open and close. 

You have to remember, Kung Fu was not designed to score points, it's basically to take apart your opponent as quickly as possible. Many of the strikes are to the eyes, the groin, the throat etc. Of course when you watch videos online you're going to see BJJ guys taking apart Kung Fu guys. How can you really spar using Kung Fu? Unless it's a real life situation and you actually are fighting for your life, you're not going to try and rip someones eyes out or kick them in the groin. Don't discount a martial art based on what you see on youtube. 

I would rather have a well trained Kung Fu artist by my side in a street fight then a well trained BJJ guy or Wrestler.


----------



## jcal

Bradysupafan said:


> I think it is because many of the strikes in Kung Fu are illegal in MMA. The UFC does NOT want to be responsible if a Kung Fu guy hits a fighter with one of his nerve strikes and hurts him bad or even kills him.


Thats complete crap. When your throwing punches every punch that connects is a nerve shot. Check out kung fu vs anything on youtube and you will see the truth.


----------



## chuck fan (russ)

Can you imagine somebody using this stance its called the horse apparently watch out mma!


----------



## jcal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=215Ai-2dFIU Check this out


----------



## NATAS

I believe Luke Cummo gets introduced as a Jeet kwon do fighter (excuse the spelling)

he is also very entertaining to watch i had hoped he would do better.


----------



## 6toes

UseOf_A_Weapon said:


> No, it was Ben (whatsisname) from the Ultimate Fighter. The dude with the mad mutton chops. I wanna say it was the serra/ hughes season? I know he wore the orange and navy jersey. But Yeah, he was the JKD fighter.
> 
> As far as Kung fu in MMA, our only point of reference that anyone has any real sort of familiarity with is Cung Le. He fights san shou, which is a sporterized version of Wu Shu kung fu. He undoubtedly has little to no ground game since he did not go after Frank on the mat when they fought, but based on his stand up and his really really impressive take downs, I'd say Kung Fu has potential to strengthen a fighter's arsenal- but Kung Fu alone is about as useful as being just a wrestler or just a boxer.


I looked it up, Tim Boetsche also fights Jeet Kune Do. I remember them putting it in his stats before his fight on the card headlined by Tim Silvia and Big Nog. 

Ben Saunders is the man, though :thumb02:


----------



## Drogo

donttouchthat said:


> Kung Fu in MMA, probably not the most effective. But that's not what it was meant for. Kung Fu was not designed to be a sport like BJJ/Wrestling/Boxing/Muay Thai.
> 
> But those of you who say Kung Fu is a joke and not applicable to real life? You're clueless. I wrestled all through highschool, I've been kickboxing for the last 13 years and picked up BJJ in the last 3 years. My brother has a similar background but also trains in Siu Lum Pai Kung Fu. If you think it's not applicable to real life, you probably just don't have any real knowledge of it.
> 
> Similar to the way Muay Thai practitioners strengthen their shins, Kung Fu artists strengthen their forearms and shins. Repetitious beating and clashing to make their bones more dense for when they block. Ever throw a bunch and get blocked by one of these guys? It really hurts.
> 
> They also strengthen their finger tips using sand, then gravel, then wood and on to concrete. Why would they spend so much time strengthening their finger tips? A lot of their attacks are to the eyes. Then you look at other forms which people think are ridiculous, like the tiger claw. One form of attack actually spreads all fingers and rakes down the eyes, so just in case you miss the eyes, you scratch their eyelids. Have you ever had your eye lids scratched? Makes it very difficult to open and close.
> 
> You have to remember, Kung Fu was not designed to score points, it's basically to take apart your opponent as quickly as possible. Many of the strikes are to the eyes, the groin, the throat etc. Of course when you watch videos online you're going to see BJJ guys taking apart Kung Fu guys. How can you really spar using Kung Fu? Unless it's a real life situation and you actually are fighting for your life, you're not going to try and rip someones eyes out or kick them in the groin. Don't discount a martial art based on what you see on youtube.
> 
> I would rather have a well trained Kung Fu artist by my side in a street fight then a well trained BJJ guy or Wrestler.


Your point about some of the strikes not being applicable in sparring or sport is valid but I would far rather have a BJJ guy or wrestler in a street fight rather than ANY striking art. Wrestling and BJJ are way easier to actually use effectively in a fight.


----------



## jcal

They also strengthen their finger tips using sand, then gravel, then wood and on to concrete. Why would they spend so much time strengthening their finger tips? A lot of their attacks are to the eyes. Then you look at other forms which people think are ridiculous, like the tiger claw. One form of attack actually spreads all fingers and rakes down the eyes, so just in case you miss the eyes, you scratch their eyelids. Have you ever had your eye lids scratched? Makes it very difficult to open and close. Anybody could do that including my girlfriend (with nails). Who has the better chance of fighting like that an opponent that can keep you in a position you cant get out of or a guy that cant even control you ? If a person cant control you hows he gonna tigerclaw your face? I dont believe you wrestled or kickboxed or do BJJ.


----------



## Dtwizzy2k5

I think some people are getting a bit off track from my original question. People are saying "kung fu would get destroyed against wrestling/BJJ" but in my OP i asked how a kung fu fighter WITH RESPECTABLE BJJ AND SUB DEFENSE would fare in the UFC. 
So i guess basically what im really asking is this: if two fighters had equal BJJ/wrestling skills but one was a kung fu master and the other was a Muay Thai/Boxing/whatever master, who would win? And if the answer is kung fu then why dont kung fu fighters start training in BJJ and join the UFC?


----------



## Suvaco

I don't think most kung fu styles are really compatible with wrestling or BJJ, or really any other style. The way they stand makes it pretty much impossible to defend or go for takedowns.


----------



## jcal

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> I think some people are getting a bit off track from my original question. People are saying "kung fu would get destroyed against wrestling/BJJ" but in my OP i asked how a kung fu fighter WITH RESPECTABLE BJJ AND SUB DEFENSE would fare in the UFC.
> So i guess basically what im really asking is this: if two fighters had equal BJJ/wrestling skills but one was a kung fu master and the other was a Muay Thai/Boxing/whatever master, who would win? And if the answer is kung fu then why dont kung fu fighters start training in BJJ and join the UFC?


 Im sure theres something you could take from kungfu and use it in your mma arsenal. What throws the topic off base is when people start saying its too dangerous to use in the cage lol. Those are the same people who think they can ko you with an invisible chi-ball of energy.


----------



## Suvaco

jcal said:


> Im sure theres something you could take from kungfu and use it in your mma arsenal. What throws the topic off base is when people start saying its too dangerous to use in the cage lol. Those are the same people who think they can ko you with an invisible chi-ball of energy.


I totally heard the Dim Mak death punch is real.


----------



## Robopencil

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> I think some people are getting a bit off track from my original question. People are saying "kung fu would get destroyed against wrestling/BJJ" but in my OP i asked how a kung fu fighter WITH RESPECTABLE BJJ AND SUB DEFENSE would fare in the UFC.
> So i guess basically what im really asking is this: if two fighters had equal BJJ/wrestling skills but one was a kung fu master and the other was a Muay Thai/Boxing/whatever master, who would win? And if the answer is kung fu then why dont kung fu fighters start training in BJJ and join the UFC?


I would take the Muay Thai fighter or the boxer to be honest. Even in a street fight when any rules go I would take the boxer or the Muay Thai fighter.


----------



## Shredder

Robopencil said:


> I would take the Muay Thai fighter or the boxer to be honest. Even in a street fight when any rules go I would take the boxer or the Muay Thai fighter.


Yeah, I agree. In a street fight it would be no good arm-baring someone while his mates stamp on your face. In a one on one street fight then BJJ would be best as most people on the street wouldn't be trained and would have no defence, but how often are street fights one on one? almost never. i would rather go for a trained striker who could throw and defend strikes more effectively.


----------



## The_Senator

I remember creating the thread here with same meaning concerning chinese fighters not fighting in MMA that much. The bottom line was that those people don't really want to participate in MMA, which is not so popular in China as it is in Brazil, Japan or USA. So if they have no interest, why would they want to adapt their kung fu for unnecessary needs? Once China develops solid fan base, then things will start to change.


http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/48152-chinese-mma-fighters-ufc.html?highlight=chinese+fighters+ufc


----------



## afroman23

DrFunk said:


> People need to realize that Kung Fu is just a general term utilized for hundreds of different martial arts. Some that are a way health art like Tai Chi to the artsy form of Wu Shou. To the more street fight based arts like Wing Chun.
> 
> The learning curve to establish a strong foundation just takes far too much time for a serious fighter to invest themselves into it. Jujitsu, Kickboxing, Wrestling are all arts that show significant improvements for a short amount of time.
> 
> Just because the current MMA trend fighters tends to have those 3 discipline as their base does not make them ultimate fighters. I just find it sad that people feel the UFC is real fighting. It's a sport. Lot more contact and violent and diverse then any single discipline but still bound by rules and regulations.
> 
> There's a lot of things that are not allowed in MMA (for obvious reasons). Most of the combat oriented Kung Fu arts were not designed to be a "sports" art like what TKD has become. Some of those arts are designed to kill, not to "spar" with your opponents. Which is prob another reason why we never see real kung fu practitioners


That's pretty well said. 

A lot of these people talking smack about kung fu have probably never practiced or trained in anything traditional before and have no real idea about what they are talking about.

As for MMA being a sport, just take a look at how joint locks and joint manipulations are banned. Entire martial arts like Japanese Ju jitsu and certain styles of kung fu are considered illegal beacause of MMA rules. And for all the doubters out there, watch the police cafefully next time you see them take someone down or check out Bas Ruten's lethal self defense on youtube.

And for the guy saying kung fu doesn't have throws and takedowns, there is a style of kung fu called shuao jiao which focuses completly on takedowns and throws.


----------



## donttouchthat

jcal said:


> Anybody could do that including my girlfriend (with nails). Who has the better chance of fighting like that an opponent that can keep you in a position you cant get out of or a guy that cant even control you ? If a person cant control you hows he gonna tigerclaw your face? I dont believe you wrestled or kickboxed or do BJJ.


Anyone can throw a punch also, but a well trained individual has a much higher chance of success. What do you mean keeping someone in a position? A real fight situation is not about getting a dominant position. An eye gauge, throat or groin strike are all fight ending attacks. 

You can believe whatever you like. I don't post here very often, but I do read. You can obviously see I'm not someone who is trying to build an e-persona (as I've only posted a few times). I'm simply trying to share my personal opinion. But I am not lying, and if I wanted to be specific, I've also done 5 years of Judo and 2 years of Aikido. I'm a small guy, so from the time I was 5 my dad had me enrolled in every martial art he could. Hell I wrestled at 119 in high school.


----------



## Liddellianenko

donttouchthat said:


> Anyone can throw a punch also, but a well trained individual has a much higher chance of success. What do you mean keeping someone in a position? A real fight situation is not about getting a dominant position. An eye gauge, throat or groin strike are all fight ending attacks.
> 
> You can believe whatever you like. I don't post here very often, but I do read. You can obviously see I'm not someone who is trying to build an e-persona (as I've only posted a few times). I'm simply trying to share my personal opinion. But I am not lying, and if I wanted to be specific, I've also done 5 years of Judo and 2 years of *Aikido*. I'm a small guy, so from the time I was 5 my dad had me enrolled in every martial art he could. Hell I wrestled at 119 in high school.


Ding! You just won the award for training the fakest, choreographed, completely ineffective martial art of all time. Here's an awesome demonstration of it's powers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv4f6xH-OwM

Seem familiar? Compare it to the first half of that Kiai master video. Anyone who can look at that and see anything other than complete cult BS of some poor asian guy intentionally running around stupid and throwing himself for Seagal's "throws" is blind. 

That hints to me where your opinion comes from... usually it's people that don't want actual self defense or fighting capabilities. They want some magical omnipotent feel good art that allows them to think they can suddenly destroy guys that are 10x bigger, stronger, faster and skilled in real fighting.


----------



## afroman23

Liddellianenko said:


> Ding! You just won the award for training the fakest, choreographed, completely ineffective martial art of all time. Here's an awesome demonstration of it's powers:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv4f6xH-OwM
> 
> Seem familiar? Compare it to the first half of that Kiai master video. Anyone who can look at that and see anything other than complete cult BS of some poor asian guy intentionally running around stupid and throwing himself for Seagal's "throws" is blind.
> 
> That hints to me where your opinion comes from... usually it's people that don't want actual self defense or fighting capabilities. They want some magical omnipotent feel good art that allows them to think they can suddenly destroy guys that are 10x bigger, stronger, faster and skilled in real fighting.


I think you just missed the entire point of that guy's post.

As for the video, how can you judge an entire martial art of some youtube videos? Unless you are there in person, I don't think anyone can say anything substantial about it. Some of that stuff does look like diving but then again...Segal could be twisting your arm or wrist in a certain way so that you are forced to roll or have your arm snapped. A lot of that stuff at the begining look like common wrist locks.


----------



## Liddellianenko

afroman23 said:


> I think you just missed the entire point of that guy's post.
> 
> As for the video, how can you judge an entire martial art of some youtube videos? Unless you are there in person, I don't think anyone can say anything substantial about it. Some of that stuff does look like diving but then again...Segal could be twisting your arm or wrist in a certain way so that you are forced to roll or have your arm snapped. A lot of that stuff at the begining look like common wrist locks.


I've seen enough demonstrations of Aikido technique to know it goes against all laws of physics, biology and real fighting experience. I don't care how he holds my wrist, no nonchalant little twist like that can send an actual resisting guy flying unless he weighs like 2 lbs or has the most painful tumor in the world growing on it that he has to do an airflip to keep it from hurting. It's pure choreography, brainwashing and peer-pressure, like the Kiai master. People wanting to live in denial will continue to use the same tired list of excuses to continue their borderline religious belief based on nothing but faith and no actual real life tests. You're welcome to them.


----------



## DrFunk

Not sure why people keep mentioning Jeet Kun Do. JKD is not traditional Kung fu but the whole basis of what MMA is about. Bruce Lee felt the traditional arts he studied (key point here) were too constrained and therefore felt that a fighter had to adapt to every situation. He liked the elusive footwork of boxing, liked Wing chun striking, and worked his ass off in pure strength conditioning, I'm sure given time he would have taken elements of BJJ and Wrestling he felt would better his game.

So talking about Cummo or Boetch being JKD does not make them Kung fu fighters. Let me repeat, Kung Fu was never ever designed to be a sport, it was mainly self defense on a life or death situation. Just because there's a lot of Fake Fu (Jet li flying in the air, Jackie Chan with his acrobatics) it does not mean that Kung Fu cannot be applied in RL situations.

Bajiquan is prob one of the most effective combat art from traditional Kung Fu. All of the chinese secret service bodyguards to high officials are trained in it. There's a lot of terrible youtube clips floating around with scrubs but the reality is, it's definitely for real. They are trained to kill. Would a Baji fighter dominate the UFC? Prob not due to the rules constraint. Doesn't mean he won't kick ass in RL.


----------



## afroman23

Liddellianenko said:


> I've seen enough demonstrations of Aikido technique to know it goes against all laws of physics, biology and real fighting experience. I don't care how he holds my wrist, no nonchalant little twist like that can send an actual resisting guy flying unless he weighs like 2 lbs or has the most painful tumor in the world growing on it that he has to do an airflip to keep it from hurting. It's pure choreography, brainwashing and peer-pressure, like the Kiai master. People wanting to live in denial will continue to use the same tired list of excuses to continue their borderline religious belief based on nothing but faith and no actual real life tests. You're welcome to them.


This is the first video which I found on youtube when I searched "wrist lock." 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPe8-VCvmSo
Unless someone is high on drugs or has an extremely high pain threshold, this technique will work.
The guy in red is doing almost nothing but is able to bring the guy in white down simply by pushing certain points. Don't you think that someone can easily throw another if they apply the wrist lock properly? BJJ has the same ideas and grew out of this.

I think that you should probably experience it first before you jump to conclusions. Watching aikido performances and calling them fake is pretty similar to watching UFC matches and saying "I can whoop they as$ easy "if you ask me. Hop down to your local aikido, judo, japanese juijitsu, kung fu qin na, etc place or ask your local police officer to put you in a wrist lock. If you refuse to because you're scared *that this stuff might actually work* then you are going to be the one living in denial about martial arts.

I also found this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sTtHJV7Icc which may be similar to what segal was doing.

Again, approach someone who knows what they are doing and tell them how you feel about aikido, judo, w/e. Unless you have an extremely high pain threshold or nerve damage, you will be fliping around too.:thumbsup:


----------



## donttouchthat

Liddellianenko said:


> Ding! You just won the award for training the fakest, choreographed, completely ineffective martial art of all time. Here's an awesome demonstration of it's powers:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv4f6xH-OwM
> 
> Seem familiar? Compare it to the first half of that Kiai master video. Anyone who can look at that and see anything other than complete cult BS of some poor asian guy intentionally running around stupid and throwing himself for Seagal's "throws" is blind.
> 
> That hints to me where your opinion comes from... usually it's people that don't want actual self defense or fighting capabilities. They want some magical omnipotent feel good art that allows them to think they can suddenly destroy guys that are 10x bigger, stronger, faster and skilled in real fighting.


You're watching videos of demonstrations. Choreographed demonstrations. How do you effectively put on a display to attract people to join your club? You make it look good. 

I thought Aikido was quite effective, it was just too boring for me because I wanted to actually compete against someone. 

I think you missed the point of my post..


----------



## Liddellianenko

afroman23 said:


> This is the first video which I found on youtube when I searched "wrist lock."
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPe8-VCvmSo
> Unless someone is high on drugs or has an extremely high pain threshold, this technique will work.
> The guy in red is doing almost nothing but is able to bring the guy in white down simply by pushing certain points. Don't you think that someone can easily throw another if they apply the wrist lock properly? BJJ has the same ideas and grew out of this.
> 
> I think that you should probably experience it first before you jump to conclusions. Watching aikido performances and calling them fake is pretty similar to watching UFC matches and saying "I can whoop they as$ easy "if you ask me. Hop down to your local aikido, judo, japanese juijitsu, kung fu qin na, etc place or ask your local police officer to put you in a wrist lock. If you refuse to because you're scared *that this stuff might actually work* then you are going to be the one living in denial about martial arts.
> 
> I also found this:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sTtHJV7Icc which may be similar to what segal was doing.
> 
> Again, approach someone who knows what they are doing and tell them how you feel about aikido, judo, w/e. Unless you have an extremely high pain threshold or nerve damage, you will be fliping around too.:thumbsup:


Are you listening? Those videos of a guy voluntarily doing what is expected of him during a demonstration is no "proof" of anything. It is completely different to watch some BS demonstration of a guy volunteering, under peer pressure, and just falling over when expected, than an actual full-on fight like the UFC. There's plenty of demonstrations like that for every BS art, including Kiai. Ever wondered why doesn't anyone doesn't even try to do this stuff in mma? It's not like it's illegal... you can very easily grab a dude's wrist against the cage. Hell just flip him over 20 times for a spectacular win! Snap his wrist! It's all legal in mma, wristlocks don't count as small joint manipulations. 

There's so many things wrong with that first video.. there's no reason in real life for the guy to allow his arm to be rotated upside down and keep his hold. He can easily resist it, scuffle and pull his arm back in and throw a punch, or instead of going down when pressure is put on a twisted straightened arm just bend his elbow in and clinch up. Nothing is holding him in place! unlike actual BJJ when the body is completely locked in a certain place, because the dude is grounded. Maybe it does hurt if you stand and take it exactly like that, but there's so many easy instinctive reactions that would happen instead of dropping down or flipping over unless you were in a demo. 

It's pointless debating with people who truly want to believe myths without proof. In the end, they'll stay in their la-la land no matter what, usually because they've sunk time and effort into these things and it sucks to think they don't work.


----------



## afroman23

Liddellianenko said:


> Are you listening? Those videos of a guy voluntarily doing what is expected of him during a demonstration is no "proof" of anything. It is completely different to watch some BS demonstration of a guy volunteering and under peer pressure than an actual full-on fight like the UFC. Ever wondered why doesn't anyone doesn't even try to do this stuff in mma? It's not like it's illegal... you can very easily grab a dude's wrist against the cage. Hell just flip him over 20 times for a spectacular win! Snap his wrist! It's all legal in mma, wristlocks don't count as small joint manipulations.
> 
> It's pointless debating with people who truly want to believe myths without proof. In the end, they'll stay in their la-la land no matter what, usually because they've sunk time and effort into these things and it sucks to think they don't work.



Your mind is so closed to other ideas. Let me put it this way: 

You believe that BJJ works.

BJJ came from Japanese JJ(aka. Aikido, aka Judo, aka, Kung Fu, etc. all the same damn thing)

If BJJ works and came from Japanese JJ how the heck does JJJ not work? 

Check Gracies website and check the history section to see where they say their BJJ came from.

Wrist locks are not used in UFC/MMA because they are *banned.*

*Feel it for yourself. *

_*You*_ seem to be the one living in *denial.*


The Police use this stuff every freaking day.



Video
And to why the guy doesn't throw back: when your wrist, arm w/e is locked like that, there is a ton of pain going through you. You cannot throw back because the pain is too great.

*FEEL IT FOR YOURSELF IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE*


----------



## Liddellianenko

afroman23 said:


> Your mind is so closed to other ideas. Let me put it this way:
> 
> You believe that BJJ works.
> 
> BJJ came from Japanese JJ(aka. Aikido, aka Judo, aka, Kung Fu, etc. all the same damn thing)
> 
> If BJJ works and came from Japanese JJ how the heck does JJJ not work?
> 
> Check Gracies website and check the history section to see where they say their BJJ came from.
> 
> Wrist locks are not used in UFC/MMA because they are *banned.*
> 
> *Feel it for yourself. *
> 
> _*You*_ seem to be the one living in *denial.*
> 
> 
> The Police use this stuff every freaking day.
> 
> 
> 
> Video
> And to why the guy doesn't throw back: when your wrist, arm w/e is locked like that, there is a ton of pain going through you. You cannot throw back because the pain is too great.
> 
> *FEEL IT FOR YOURSELF IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE*


Yes, *lets underline the text. This is proof of everything.* BJJ works because it takes the successful elements of Judo (not JJJ, and certainly not Kung Fu or Aikido lol), expands on it, and separates a lot of the fluff. The fact that you think BJJ has anything to do with those other arts besides Judo makes me wonder if you've ever visited the Gracies site yourself. They are not the "same damn thing" any more than apples are oranges because they're both fruits. Heck, Kung fu isn't even Japanese, it's Chinese.

Wrist locks are not banned in the UFC.

http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules

Repeat after me *not banned*. There you go, nice and underlined like you like it. Do you even look this stuff up before you spout it? The only thing mentioned on there is small joint manipulation, which means fingers and toes. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_joint_manipulation

Wrist control is fine. Kimuras start as wrist control. Kimuras work. Again, please explain why you never see this things in MMA even when they're completely legal and would easily win you a fight if they worked? Because they don't.

The police don't use Aikido in real life. The police have guns and batons. When is the last time some policeman did an Aikido flip lol? The military doesn't use martial arts in real life either, they use guns. These are typical Bullshido martial art claims. While we're at it, the alien rulers of planet nebular use Kiai, how in the world do you think they run an intergalactic empire?

EDIT: BJJ was developed from Kodokan Judo which, on looking up, was influenced by many styles of JJJ, so there's some influence there. Either way, it's still trimming away most of the ineffective fluff and is completely unrelated to Aikido and Kung Fu.


----------



## name goes here

As far as I remember you can't rules wise apply wrist locks in mma. Though that doesn't neacessarily mean that a wrist lock can just be endured like an ankle lock. Especially with some of the giant arms some mma guys have, some of whom look like they have bigger wrists than ankles.


----------



## Liddellianenko

name goes here said:


> As far as I remember you can't rules wise apply wrist locks in mma. Though that doesn't neacessarily mean that a wrist lock can just be endured like an ankle lock. Especially with some of the giant arms some mma guys have, some of whom look like they have bigger wrists than ankles.


Where do you remember this from? Source? The rules list is right there in front of you, this is all hearsay.


----------



## MooJuice

Liddellianenko wins.


----------



## name goes here

Liddellianenko said:


> Where do you remember this from? Source? The rules list is right there in front of you, this is all hearsay.


Because I remember the ref stopping Igor from applying a wrist lock in one of his early fights. It seemed to be effective enough until he was stopped though


----------



## Drogo

donttouchthat said:


> Anyone can throw a punch also, but a well trained individual has a much higher chance of success. What do you mean keeping someone in a position? A real fight situation is not about getting a dominant position. An eye gauge, throat or groin strike are all fight ending attacks.


No, they are not. Sometimes they will be but if you think you are going to poke some guy in the throat or kick him in the groin and he'll drop like a sack of brick (just like in the movies) you are dreaming. Real fights are really messy and the incredibly low success rate at even landing a groin/throat/eye strike combined with the fact that it isn't as fight ending as people think make them almost useless. 

Kung Fu is not useless, a person trained in it will have an advantage over someone untrained, but the idea that it is deadlier than other martial arts and the only reason it isn't seen more in the UFC is because it is too dangerous is hugely lol.


----------



## Liddellianenko

name goes here said:


> Because I remember the ref stopping Igor from applying a wrist lock in one of his early fights. It seemed to be effective enough until he was stopped though


Yes, that's a common mistake .. the ref was actually just telling Igor to not break the fingers, nothing to do with the wristlock.


----------



## donttouchthat

Drogo said:


> No, they are not. Sometimes they will be but if you think you are going to poke some guy in the throat or kick him in the groin and he'll drop like a sack of brick (just like in the movies) you are dreaming. Real fights are really messy and the incredibly low success rate at even landing a groin/throat/eye strike combined with the fact that it isn't as fight ending as people think make them almost useless.
> 
> Kung Fu is not useless, a person trained in it will have an advantage over someone untrained, but the idea that it is deadlier than other martial arts and the only reason it isn't seen more in the UFC is because it is too dangerous is hugely lol.


I'm sorry, but I would rather be punched in the face then kicked in the groin, punched in the throat or poked in the eyes.

Please don't take what I'm saying the wrong way. I do not think Kung Fu is better than any other martial art. I believe every martial art is great and can be used effectively. How many of you would be saying the same thing about Karate right now had it not been for GSP and Lyoto Machida? I'm simply saying, the reason you won't see a lot of Kung Fu in MMA, is because the martial art is HEAVILY focused on what would be considered illegal strikes. It's the same reason you won't see Escrima (Filipino stick fighting) in the UFC, you can't use it, but that doesn't mean it's not effective. 

In my opinion, no martial art is better than another. It comes down more to the individual. When all things are equal, training/size/height/weight etc., then I believe it comes down to luck. 

And to the guy saying that Aikido is not taught to police offers, you're clearly misinformed. 

You also go on to say the military is not trained in martial arts because they have guns and knives. Have you heard of Krav Maga? If you believe that Krav Maga is BS and not effective for real life situations then I don't know what to tell you. I've never seen Krav Maga applied in the UFC, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to run into a well trained Israeli soldier in the street.


----------



## Liddellianenko

donttouchthat said:


> And to the guy saying that Aikido is not taught to police offers, you're clearly misinformed.
> 
> You also go on to say the military is not trained in martial arts because they have guns and knives. Have you heard of Krav Maga? If you believe that Krav Maga is BS and not effective for real life situations then I don't know what to tell you. I've never seen Krav Maga applied in the UFC, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to run into a well trained Israeli soldier in the street.


This is again a blind claim that impresses most people. I'm not saying certain militaries or police forces don't train certain martial arts. But their decision makers are just as human and influenced by tall claims, nationalism etc. instead of actual results. The fact that they train means nothing, if mike tyson has taken Aikido for a year as a kid you couldn't attribute his success in Boxing to that, it would still be his natural abilities and the art of boxing. I wouldn't wanna run into an Israeli soldier either, but mostly because they're physically fit, buff, and ruthless. If anything, I'd have the edge in technique. Krav Maga has nothing to do with it... they never use it in actual combat, but the fact that the Israeli govt. makes them train it makes a huge marketing machine for it.

And yes, Krav Maga is IMO another trumped up "hardcore" martial art with inflated claims and big marketing that teaches nothing more that common sense shit like groin kicks and gouges along with ineffective choreographed stuff. My brother took it for 3 years and I've seen plenty of demonstrations of it's "amazing" techniques. I like the mentality of "no holds barred" and fight dirty, but the techniques are nothing special.


----------



## XitUp

donttouchthat said:


> You also go on to say the military is not trained in martial arts because they have guns and knives. Have you heard of Krav Maga? If you believe that Krav Maga is BS and not effective for real life situations then I don't know what to tell you. I've never seen Krav Maga applied in the UFC, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to run into a well trained Israeli soldier in the street.


There are loads of weapons stuff in Krav Maga.


----------



## swpthleg

If there were more than 2 martial arts offered in my town, I'd be most inclined to add MT or BJJ to my current TKD and boxing training. It's my personal interests that determined that, however, not any other factor.

Sadly I think my only option in this area is to travel 50 miles and pay $$$, which is not an option.


----------



## newfish

A lot of misinformation in this thread. Look -- many martial arts have the same or close origins and/or rely on similar principles. Many of the throws/locks in Aikido are the same as those used in BJJ, for example, only applied differently. 

But the central point that few seem to be grasping is that training to fight in a ring or cage is vastly different than training in a martial art for self defense or for military reasons or for law enforcement. Muai Thai, for example, emphasizes a form of kicking and defending that won't totally kill a fighter's legs, and that doesn't put a fighter too far off balance. In a non-pro fight situation, these assets may not be as important. 

The point is that the fighting styles you see employed are styles developed around professional fighting. You don't see much Aikido or Kung Fu or Karate or whatever because most of these gyms dont' focus on fighting as a profession. Some of this is because their techniques simply dont' work as well in that concept, some is pure chance, and in some cases fighters do harvest those techniques that prove effective (which partially is why MMA continues to evolove). 

There's this notion here that 99% of martial arts is mysticism. Bull. Some of it is (magical Kung-Fu no-touch death strikes or whatever), but if you observe closely, you'll note that most martial arts rely on the same physical principles, just expressed in different ways and used for different ends. Yeah, you don't see peopel doing spinning backflips or whatever in the ring -- that's cause that shit's a dance, essentially, and an elaboration on core principles meant to show off skill. Nuff said.


----------



## Drogo

donttouchthat said:


> I'm sorry, but I would rather be punched in the face then kicked in the groin, punched in the throat or poked in the eyes.
> 
> Please don't take what I'm saying the wrong way. I do not think Kung Fu is better than any other martial art. I believe every martial art is great and can be used effectively. How many of you would be saying the same thing about Karate right now had it not been for GSP and Lyoto Machida? I'm simply saying, the reason you won't see a lot of Kung Fu in MMA, is because the martial art is HEAVILY focused on what would be considered illegal strikes. It's the same reason you won't see Escrima (Filipino stick fighting) in the UFC, you can't use it, but that doesn't mean it's not effective.
> 
> In my opinion, no martial art is better than another. It comes down more to the individual. When all things are equal, training/size/height/weight etc., then I believe it comes down to luck.


I'd rather be punched in the face too, I never said a groin strike is useless. I'm saying the fact that it isn't disabling as most people think combined with the fact that it is hard to land make it a low percentage play. I'm not saying Kung Fu is useless at all but MMA is close enough to real fighting that if Kung Fu was really effective it would show up more. I don't buy at all that if they were free of rules that Kung Fu would be superior to other martial arts. 

Some martial arts are just plain better than others. The ones that are easiest to apply and MMA has pretty much shown us which ones those are. Wrestling, BJJ, Muy Thai, Boxing, Kick boxing. Those are the most effective. Kung Fu ranks pretty low down the list, as does Karate. GSP and Machida stand out because they are one of the few in MMA that have used it successfully. GSP isn't winning fights with spinning back kicks, he's winning them with wrestling. If he'd never trained Karate he'd probably be right where he is now anyway.


----------



## NastyNinja

Kung Fu/ TKD /Capoeira ... 3 arts that dont look good in a MMA setting but used as foundation will enhance a fighter in MMA today

Kung Fu...You become your move, alot of self exploring when it comes to rolling arms and legs with odd stances and balance trainning, dig DEEP into kung fu and you will gain good focus on how the inner fighter works

TKD..Kicks Kicks Kicks...IMO TKD will make a solid comeback, mastering higher up kicks now with speed and power will result in being noticed in the UFC "UFC GUYS NOT MMA" if landed it can become some of the best highlights "cro cops left round house is classic TKD move".... throwing double tap kicks.... if a real TKD was confident we could see Axe kicks "yes that shit would rock in the UFC and it could be a real weapon" front snap kicks and being able to use the legs more then most would be a nice edge

Cap...yes this is odd but I do like to think outside the box, this form is for ground/standing half stances...this could be used for more speed and control on the ground..being able to throw odd kicks from random sitting positions and building up speed from the floor to stand up or just foot work all together could cause a huge advantage...

Yes striking and effective MOVES from kung fu might not work in MMA, but you are taking only a small bit of the art...it is ART enjoy it.... drink it...kiss it....finger it, just get involved deep enough to understand why it is so good....the whole GSP and karate thing of how he does not use it in UFC yes he does not do hook kicks but karate prob gave him the discipline/confidence/body control/leg work/calmness he needed to be where he is today.


----------



## name goes here

It will look cool when it happens


----------



## afroman23

Liddellianenko said:


> Yes, *lets underline the text. This is proof of everything.* BJJ works because it takes the successful elements of Judo (not JJJ, and certainly not Kung Fu or Aikido lol), expands on it, and separates a lot of the fluff. The fact that you think BJJ has anything to do with those other arts besides Judo makes me wonder if you've ever visited the Gracies site yourself. They are not the "same damn thing" any more than apples are oranges because they're both fruits. Heck, Kung fu isn't even Japanese, it's Chinese.
> 
> Wrist locks are not banned in the UFC.
> 
> http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
> 
> Repeat after me *not banned*. There you go, nice and underlined like you like it. Do you even look this stuff up before you spout it? The only thing mentioned on there is small joint manipulation, which means fingers and toes.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_joint_manipulation
> 
> Wrist control is fine. Kimuras start as wrist control. Kimuras work. Again, please explain why you never see this things in MMA even when they're completely legal and would easily win you a fight if they worked? Because they don't.
> 
> The police don't use Aikido in real life. The police have guns and batons. When is the last time some policeman did an Aikido flip lol? The military doesn't use martial arts in real life either, they use guns. These are typical Bullshido martial art claims. While we're at it, the alien rulers of planet nebular use Kiai, how in the world do you think they run an intergalactic empire?
> 
> EDIT: BJJ was developed from Kodokan Judo which, on looking up, was influenced by many styles of JJJ, so there's some influence there. Either way, it's still trimming away most of the ineffective fluff and is completely unrelated to Aikido and Kung Fu.



My bad, wrist locks are allowed in the UFC.

What I am trying to say though is that this stuff can work. Everyone here seems to be throwing traditional martial arts out the window. I'm not trying to say that some traditional guy can walk into a ring and smoke everyone he faces. Why people do not utilize traditional arts more in mma? I do not have an answer, but you stating that it is inefficient can not be true because cops are using this stuff on a daily basis. 

As for guys flipping around in Segal's video, those guys are trained and they flip because they have the skills to do so. A regular person on the street is just going to collapse down. Im also not saying that the Segal video is not choreographed as it clearly is. That does not mean though that what he is doing doesn't work.

Kung Fu, JJJ, Aikido, Judo, and probably many other arts, all have very similar moves.

And yes, police use this stuff. They are not using muay thai or boxing.


----------



## Greg (UK)

I agree and disagree with a lot wrote on this subject.

From memory I can only remember two Kung Fu guys competiting in MMA, one was Jason Delucia who started out just pure kung fu and got his arm wrecked by Royce Gracie (but then evolved with the sport and went on to have a moderate career), the other was some Kung Fu guy on my old Vale Tudo 1 tape, who likewise got taken down and wrecked.

However like most martial arts I do think there are some good techniques and strikes from Kung Fu that could work well in MMA. Palm strikes for example can be deadly (Bas Rutten for example, when Keith Hackney dropped Emmanuel Yarborough)....there's also a lot of different points of the hand used for striking that would work well for ground and pound to mix things up in order to work a sub or provide a more effective strike rather than forcing a punch / elbow from an unnatural position.

But yeah as people were saying as just a stand up form on it's own it doesn't work well in MMA or against Thai Boxing.


----------



## newfish

Greg (UK) said:


> I agree and disagree with a lot wrote on this subject.
> 
> From memory I can only remember two Kung Fu guys competiting in MMA, one was Jason Delucia who started out just pure kung fu and got his arm wrecked by Royce Gracie (but then evolved with the sport and went on to have a moderate career), the other was some Kung Fu guy on my old Vale Tudo 1 tape, who likewise got taken down and wrecked.
> 
> However like most martial arts I do think there are some good techniques and strikes from Kung Fu that could work well in MMA. Palm strikes for example can be deadly (Bas Rutten for example, when Keith Hackney dropped Emmanuel Yarborough)....there's also a lot of different points of the hand used for striking that would work well for ground and pound to mix things up in order to work a sub or provide a more effective strike rather than forcing a punch / elbow from an unnatural position.
> 
> But yeah as people were saying as just a stand up form on it's own it doesn't work well in MMA or against Thai Boxing.


I agree with a lot said here as well, I wonder -- nobody seems to be discussing the fact that the most popular styles of combat in MMA are those that have their own professional (or collegiate) fighting leagues. You can go to Thailand or K-1 and kickbox. You can box, obviously, and wrestle in college. BJJ has huge tournies in Brazil. But kung-fu? I mean, there are competitions, but we're not talking pro fighting. 

As we know, it's hard for fighters to adopt a new skill set, and even when they do they aren't expert. It may not be that kung-fu techniques are ineffective, but that nobody interested in pro fighting knows how to use them in a professional fighting situation.


----------



## Tango87

There is Kung Fu in MMA! Read the definition of Kung Fu...

_"self-defense by striking blows at vulnerable areas of an attacker's body using fluid movements of the hands and legs."_

See isn't that what MMA or any other martial art is about? Defending yourself? who cares if it's practical or not. Many people practice allegedly ineffective Martial Arts their whole life. How would you feel if someone told you that the thing you loved most was ineffective? MMA techniques are awesome but it sure would suck to run in to a guy with a gun. Then I would be praying to know some of that Krav Maga shit I was talking crap about as he has a gun pointed to my face within grabbing distance. We should never act "Holier than thou" that is ignorant and assholish. The Gracie's would act like this until fighters started incorporating more techniques in their game and then BJJ was less effective. Fighting will continue to grow, so to assume that current MMA is a cure-all would be naive. It is the most effective NOW. I'm just excited to see if someone tweaks it even more to make it better. Now THAT is a scary thought... 

EDIT: the actual definition has "An ancient Chinese" in front of it... But you get the point.


----------



## DocTran

I haven't read through the entire thread so I apologize if I'm repeating anything other people have already said.

I'm by no means an expert of any martial art or style but it appears that most people posting in the thread are looking at kung fu in its modern form as a true martial art. I think that any system of combat that has lasted a significant period is a legitimate system but modern kung fu in most of its variations has lost most of its practical application.

Looking at "kung fu" overall, I think it is a victim of times relative peace as well as increased dependency on higher technology in warfare. Many modern martial art systems appear to be watered down versions of what they once were when they were a necessity of close combat in somewhat harsher times. It's not that close quarter combat is a rare thing these days but with firearms and other types of technology, soldiers don't have to resort to close quarter combat as much.

Disregarding the fanciful mysticism surrounding most martial arts, I think when you get right down to it, they all involve an attempt to understand and utilize the human body for the purpose of combat. Biomechanics remain the same for all humans and each martial art seeks, at least in part, to use the human body as an effective form of defense and offense. The various forms of kung fu, at least in the past, sought the same goal. These days, it is largely a performance based art. Unfortunately, like other martial arts that have their origins in antiquity, the true system has been lost and may not be totally recovered due to lack of accurate documentation.

I think that development of modern mixed martial arts systems are in part a response to the general state of uneffective martial arts. Many "inheritors" of martial arts systems hold tradition over practical and unbiased application.

I think that ultimately, in order for kung fu to be more commonly utilized in MMA, it will take a successful mixed martial artist who uses kung fu effectively to bring legitimacy to the martial art's application in MMA. However, like Machida's use of karate, it would be a supplement to the mixed martial artist's martial system. The mixed martial artist would use the parts of a particular kung fu system that are beneficial and discard the rest.


----------



## tecnotut

HeavyRob said:


> just to be "that" guy...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (it was my original style... gotta support it a little)


Love the part where the "master", at 0:33, yells out "[inaudible] mother fucker...come on!" Do the Shoalin monks teach their students to use that language when in that position/pose?


----------



## tecnotut

Liddellianenko said:


> True, San Shou is about the only version of Kung Fu that works .. but it borrows heavily from Muay Thai, Boxing and Greco-Roman wrestling (those throws are straight out of Greco, no Kung Fu has anything like that, Wushu included). So it is more MMA than Kung Fu. However, it is indeed an effective and upcoming style that incorporates many aspects of Kung Fu such as the side kick, scissor leg takedowns, kung fu style cut kicks, and short combo punches occasionally. So yeah, if you're looking for an effective and tested version of Kung Fu, San Shou is it, and when mastered it's pretty devastating as well as quite beautiful looking when done well
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r55mxK2xKc


Dude, that guy is bad!

Mods: Sorry for double post.


----------



## lhbffan

Perhaps a wide stance and long fist throwing isn't the best style for every mma match. But there are many techniques that would be very advantageous in the octagon or other leagues. like iron techniques, cranes beak, phoenix eye, or even leopard fist. With the concepts of JKD to evolve and incorporate into something that works. Things are dismissed because the style is dismissed, but the technique in the style has use for someone with the discipline to learn and master it. I see some tough [email protected]$$ fighters in mma, I do not see any masters.


----------



## swpthleg

DocTran said:


> I haven't read through the entire thread so I apologize if I'm repeating anything other people have already said.
> 
> I'm by no means an expert of any martial art or style but it appears that most people posting in the thread are looking at kung fu in its modern form as a true martial art. I think that any system of combat that has lasted a significant period is a legitimate system but modern kung fu in most of its variations has lost most of its practical application.
> 
> Looking at "kung fu" overall, I think it is a victim of times relative peace as well as increased dependency on higher technology in warfare. Many modern martial art systems appear to be watered down versions of what they once were when they were a necessity of close combat in somewhat harsher times. It's not that close quarter combat is a rare thing these days but with firearms and other types of technology, soldiers don't have to resort to close quarter combat as much.
> 
> Disregarding the fanciful mysticism surrounding most martial arts, I think when you get right down to it, they all involve an attempt to understand and utilize the human body for the purpose of combat. Biomechanics remain the same for all humans and each martial art seeks, at least in part, to use the human body as an effective form of defense and offense. The various forms of kung fu, at least in the past, sought the same goal. These days, it is largely a performance based art. Unfortunately, like other martial arts that have their origins in antiquity, the true system has been lost and may not be totally recovered due to lack of accurate documentation.
> 
> I think that development of modern mixed martial arts systems are in part a response to the general state of uneffective martial arts. Many "inheritors" of martial arts systems hold tradition over practical and unbiased application.
> 
> I think that ultimately, in order for kung fu to be more commonly utilized in MMA, it will take a successful mixed martial artist who uses kung fu effectively to bring legitimacy to the martial art's application in MMA. However, like Machida's use of karate, it would be a supplement to the mixed martial artist's martial system. The mixed martial artist would use the parts of a particular kung fu system that are beneficial and discard the rest.


Quoted for truth, insight and general awesomeness.


----------



## TheNegation

lhbffan said:


> Perhaps a wide stance and long fist throwing isn't the best style for every mma match. But there are many techniques that would be very advantageous in the octagon or other leagues. like iron techniques, cranes beak, phoenix eye, or even leopard fist. With the concepts of JKD to evolve and incorporate into something that works. Things are dismissed because the style is dismissed, but the technique in the style has use for someone with the discipline to learn and master it. I see some tough [email protected]$$ fighters in mma, I do not see any masters.



It's the age old question: troll or retard?


----------



## lhbffan

you can only gain so much from punching a bag a couple of ways. black belt is like a high school diploma, you have got the fundamentals down. some have got a few diplomas but no ba/bs degree. that 101 class will not equal a 401.


----------



## TheNegation

This coming from someone who thinks this is a good style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD6tCAsBo_8

You shall be totally ready for your opponent to run at you blindly with his arm extended offering no attack whatsoever. If you are fighting anyone other than James Thompson, you are probably fucked.


----------



## lhbffan

Don "The Dragon" Wilson and Cynthia Rothrock raise01:


----------



## tecnotut

TheNegation said:


> This coming from someone who thinks this is a good style
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD6tCAsBo_8
> 
> You shall be totally ready for your opponent to run at you blindly with his arm extended offering no attack whatsoever. If you are fighting anyone other than James Thompson, you are probably fucked.


I think all the credit, money and fame should go to the guy doing all the flips, flops and jumps. He's the one showing at least some kind of athleticism.


----------



## leifdawg

tecnotut said:


> I think all the credit, money and fame should go to the guy doing all the flips, flops and jumps. He's the one showing at least some kind of athleticism.


That's the same style that Steven Segal does right? Is it a prerequisite for that style that you look like a total douchebag?


----------



## Perkel

@ Liddellianenko

Most of wrestling and grapple don't work in real fight because oponnent can easly run and try to distance himself or he can use land high (stairs, bariers) he can use lots of dirty tricks not only like groin kicks but sand , metal pipes.. I mean if you try to grapple someone with knife you are *****d up. 

For someone with knife i realy prefer experienced aikido chick more than a fedor.

And you are realy crazy if you think that Krav maga is BS.
Like any other martial art developed purely for killing, detroying your oponent in quickest time possible isn't good for MMA fighing tech.

For me comparing MMA to real life fight is like comparing Wrestlmania to MMA. 

BTW I'm waiting to someone debiut with good Wing chun style. 

It's almost ultimate tech for real fight even with crowd and can be easly trasfered to MMA. With some wrestling training it could be new trend.

some demo : (there aren't almost any real fights on youtube with this style) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvK1pfyKtwg

I always know that best defence is attack


----------



## AlphaDawg

Kung Fy is flashy, not effective. If the person doesn't move and doesn't defend themselves then yes, kung fu is cool. But if they are mildly intelligent, they'll just dodge everything.


----------



## GKY

People here really don't seem to understand what King Fu is. The second best guy at my kickboxing gym is a Kung Fu guy. He fights just like a MT fighter (same stance, same technique) it's just he uses certain kicks most guys don't (like jumping kicks and whatnot). Some people say it's not effective, but once again, he is the second best guy there and knocks people out all the time.


----------



## Servatose

Wow, semi-old post. I'll say again what I said earlier in this thread. It's stupid to pretend to know what martial arts will work when combined with the right skill set, and even more ignorant to out right deny the possibility one could have a presence in MMA at some point. 

I think fighters like Lyoto Machida are perfect demonstrations of how most martial arts have useful techniques, and when combined with the right defense can have just as much a place as any traditional art. It's all about putting the right offense and defense together. And I'm positive there are a couple, if not a handful of Kung Fu techniques that anyone could find useful in their arsenal. It's too diverse an art for a statement like that not to be true.


----------



## khoveraki

Bradysupafan said:


> I think it is because many of the strikes in Kung Fu are illegal in MMA. The UFC does NOT want to be responsible if a Kung Fu guy hits a fighter with one of his nerve strikes and hurts him bad or even kills him.





somethingclever said:


> Imagine the liabilities if a stray fireball or energy vortex is loosed into the unsuspecting crowd!!!


Lmfao, this was gold.



Roy Nelson says his style is Kung Fu when he's introduced by Buffer for a fight. I think it's an awesome joke.


----------



## Mr. Sparkle

In answer to the original question: Because Fred Etish proved its complete lack of effectiveness in UFC 2.


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## xeberus

Kung fu is not nearly as effective as other styles in real fighting, although it does look pretty.


----------



## The_Senator

> For someone with knife i realy prefer experienced aikido chick more than a fedor.


Fedor with a knife hunting Brock Lesnar for free somewhere in Russia as M-1 CEO so vehemently suggested. Now this is true SAFARI!


----------



## SpecC

Cung Le uses a lot of Sanda style kicks. I'm not sure how effective it'd be against some of the elite Muay Thai fighters out there. If Machida can bring back Karate though, I'm sure some pieces of Kung Fu can be useful as well.


----------



## joey__stalin

Tim Boetsch is probably the only guy I have seen with Jeet kune do listed as a fighting style.


----------



## Indestructibl3

Well at the TUF 10 finale, Roy 'Big Country' Nelson was introduced as a "Kung Fu Fighter".


----------



## Brutus

Dont know if it has been mentioned but doesnt Ben Saunder have some kinda kung fu background? Im pretty sure hes a black belt in some kind of Kung fu.


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## xeberus

Guys of course we're talking about "fun" not real self defense. In the real world we have knives, weapons etc. I carry a small .40cal glock. Now its not that big and its not that powerful, but in less than a second it stops anyone regardless of size or skill.


----------



## machidaisgod

Hey and what about gymkata, the movie was classic, could that be a solid foundation for future gymnasts.


----------



## Hellboy

HeavyRob said:


> heehee
> 
> gonna be the other "that" guy now...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> booyah


His reaction to his nose bleeding is hilarious.


----------



## swpthleg

xeberus said:


> Guys of course we're talking about "fun" not real self defense. In the real world we have knives, weapons etc. I carry a small .40cal glock. Now its not that big and its not that powerful, but in less than a second it stops anyone regardless of size or skill.


That would be Glock Fu.


----------



## JMAT

swpthleg said:


> That would be Glock Fu.


lmao :happy02:


----------



## Perkel

swpthleg said:


> That would be Glock Fu.


----------



## Hellboy

UseOf_A_Weapon said:


> *No, it was Ben (whatsisname) from the Ultimate Fighter. The dude with the mad mutton chops. I wanna say it was the serra/ hughes season?* I know he wore the orange and navy jersey. But Yeah, he was the JKD fighter.
> 
> As far as Kung fu in MMA, our only point of reference that anyone has any real sort of familiarity with is Cung Le. He fights san shou, which is a sporterized version of Wu Shu kung fu. He undoubtedly has little to no ground game since he did not go after Frank on the mat when they fought, but based on his stand up and his really really impressive take downs, I'd say Kung Fu has potential to strengthen a fighter's arsenal- but Kung Fu alone is about as useful as being just a wrestler or just a boxer.


You don't know who Ben Saunders is ? :confused03:


----------



## munkie

Kung Fu is effective against an opponent that strikes from a distance. Not effective in MMA because those guys don't just stand there and throw punches and kicks from a distance. Granted, any high level martial arts master would be semi-effective in any combat sport. But if a guy was to come into MMA just being good at Kung Fu, he would get beat the **** up buy any Muay Thai/Wrestler fighter he stepped into the cage or ring with.


----------



## Light_Speed

actually this one guy who trained wing chun for 2 years and just started muay thai 4 months ago is dominating everyone at my old gym when we do stand up mma. he needs to work on his ground skills..but hes a monster with the mma gloves on


----------



## M_D

Liddellianenko said:


> Yes, that's a common mistake .. the ref was actually just telling Igor to not break the fingers, nothing to do with the wristlock.


wrist locks are considered small joint manipulation. this was proved in another thread but I cant for the life of me find it for it was a while ago


----------



## Liddellianenko

M_D said:


> wrist locks are considered small joint manipulation. this was proved in another thread but I cant for the life of me find it for it was a while ago


Some random people agreeing in some random thread that you can't even find does not constitute "proof" of any sort. This topic has been debated quite a bit on many forums, just google "wrist lock small joint manipulation" or something... most of those discussions agree that wrist locks are not small joint manipulations, and are perfectly legal. The wrist joint is almost as big as your elbow joint, I don't see how it can be considered small. 

In fact Royce is said to have submitted Akebono with it, but that's about the only instance, because they're so inefficient.


----------



## khoveraki

What about the chin-to-eyeball submission?



Yep, still more effective than wristlocks.


----------



## georgie17891

lol that kung fu street fight is sick lol


----------



## Squirrelfighter

As a striking art it is exceeding versatile. My sparring partner does Shaolin Kung Fu. I'm been cracked in the jaw by "back-wrist strikes" (essentially smacking the opponent in the face with the back of your wrist after an inside block) That's one example of several varieties of...weird strikes that accompany some portions of Kung Fu. 

In regards to ground and pound...there's not much. My partner has been able to alter some Mantis form maneuvers into ground and pound but straight up MMA ground and pound is nearly non-existant. 

With position control and ground-based submissions...not so much. Kung Fu is a War-Art. So its ground situations are more, "knock him down and then beat him to death before he gets up" Not so much make him tap.


----------



## swpthleg

Squirrelfighter said:


> As a striking art it is exceeding versatile. My sparring partner does Shaolin Kung Fu. I'm been cracked in the jaw by "back-wrist strikes" (essentially smacking the opponent in the face with the back of your wrist after an inside block) That's one example of several varieties of...weird strikes that accompany some portions of Kung Fu.
> 
> In regards to ground and pound...there's not much. My partner has been able to alter some Mantis form maneuvers into ground and pound but straight up MMA ground and pound is nearly non-existant.
> 
> With position control and ground-based submissions...not so much. Kung Fu is a War-Art. So its ground situations are more, "knock him down and then beat him to death before he gets up" Not so much make him tap.


Caaaaareful......for some reason there is a LOT of kung fu hate on this forum.


----------



## BobbyCooper

_I think the main reason why people give Kung Fu and Karate no credit is because of all the movies. 

Like Karate Kid or The Kung Fu series with David Carradine. Thats probably the main reason.
And thats just so wrong!

Or have you guys ever heard of The Muay Thai kid or the BJJ Kid?? Never right^^_


----------



## JMAT

BobbyCooper said:


> _I think the main reason why people give Kung Fu and Karate no credit is because of all the movies.
> _


Like this one :confused02:

http://darkaeon.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/kung-fu-panda.jpg


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## BobbyCooper

_Lol :thumb02: yea something like that^^_


----------



## MrJoey

Was I the only one totally confused when Buffer announced Big Country Nelson as a 'Kung Fu Fighter'...


----------



## BobbyCooper

MrJoey said:


> Was I the only one totally confused when Buffer announced Big Country Nelson as a 'Kung Fu Fighter'...


_I listened to it 3 times or so still couldn't believe Buffer said that^^ it was a joke obv!_


----------



## M_D

Liddellianenko said:


> Some random people agreeing in some random thread that you can't even find does not constitute "proof" of any sort. This topic has been debated quite a bit on many forums, just google "wrist lock small joint manipulation" or something... most of those discussions agree that wrist locks are not small joint manipulations, and are perfectly legal. The wrist joint is almost as big as your elbow joint, I don't see how it can be considered small.
> 
> In fact Royce is said to have submitted Akebono with it, but that's about the only instance, because they're so inefficient.


lol..no I was talking the member posted a quote and vid of dana saying they were small joint manipulation


----------



## Liddellianenko

M_D said:


> lol..no I was talking the member posted a quote and vid of dana saying they were small joint manipulation


ok here's my vid

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4754358887413654428#

Please tell me that's not blatant wrist manipulation and wrist locking in the end... the ref can see it plain as day and doesn't say a thing. And the only reason it works is that Royce has Akebono's shoulder and arm trapped with kind of a triangle... it would never work the way Aikido shows it, where a guy could just pull it out and punch you to death with it.

Here's a discussion where every one pretty much agrees and gives details that wrist locks are not small joint manipulation.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071217194855AAVWJRC

So where's this legendary dana vid of yours that disproves what we just saw in that fight? Ah you can't find it. I see.

Even if Dana did say that and you didn't just see a quote and make up that part about the vid, Dana could be mistaken. He didn't sit and personally draft those rules and it's not his job to interpret them ... sure as president of a fight org he _should _be fairly knowledgeable about this kind of thing, but then Jon Jones as a fighter _should've_ known that 12-6 elbows were illegal. The experts on these details are the refs themselves and the athletic commissions that interpret these rules. At the very least, that Royce vid shows that the Japanese refs and commissions don't interpret wrist locks as illegal. So the question would still be the same, why we don't see wrist locks in MMA (in Japan) besides that one lone instance?


----------



## M_D

Liddellianenko said:


> ok here's my vid
> 
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4754358887413654428#
> 
> Please tell me that's not blatant wrist manipulation and wrist locking in the end... the ref can see it plain as day and doesn't say a thing. And the only reason it works is that Royce has Akebono's shoulder and arm trapped with kind of a triangle... it would never work the way Aikido shows it, where a guy could just pull it out and punch you to death with it.
> 
> Here's a discussion where every one pretty much agrees and gives details that wrist locks are not small joint manipulation.
> 
> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071217194855AAVWJRC
> 
> So where's this legendary dana vid of yours that disproves what we just saw in that fight? Ah you can't find it. I see.
> 
> Even if Dana did say that and you didn't just see a quote and make up that part about the vid, Dana could be mistaken. He didn't sit and personally draft those rules and it's not his job to interpret them ... sure as president of a fight org he _should _be fairly knowledgeable about this kind of thing, but then Jon Jones as a fighter _should've_ known that 12-6 elbows were illegal. The experts on these details are the refs themselves and the athletic commissions that interpret these rules. At the very least, that Royce vid shows that the Japanese refs and commissions don't interpret wrist locks as illegal. So the question would still be the same, why we don't see wrist locks in MMA (in Japan) besides that one lone instance?


um why are you showing a fight from a while ago and also not in the ufc?
and the second is just a thread of people talking on yahoo answers? 

Like I said in the previous post that i could not find the thread so you repeating it in your post to some how disprove it is interesting to say the least, I have no reason to lie to you nor do I really care if you think they are or not allowed i was just trying to help you out by saying i saw a vid of dana talking about akido in mma and also in that vid he mentioned that wrist locks fell in the category of things they dont allow in the ufc. Like I said I could care less that you dont believe me I was trying to be nice and do you a favor


----------



## Johnni G

Bruce Lee would have kicked ass in UFC


----------



## Dtwizzy2k5

I just watched Cung Le in Strikeforce tonight live against Scott Smith and he pretty much put on a striking clinic with his San Shao style of kung fu (even tho he lost the fight off a lucky punch in the end). Also, before this fight he was 6-0 with all his fights ending in a KO. 
Anthony Johnson also trains San Shao kung fu with Cung Le and he is a pretty good welterweight prospect in the UFC as well. 
I think its pretty hard to watch these guys and say things like "kung fu cant be effective in the UFC", which is what a lot of people in this thread are claiming.
Personally, i think almost every martial art can be effective in MMA if used properly.


----------



## Liddellianenko

M_D said:


> um why are you showing a fight from a while ago and also not in the ufc?
> and the second is just a thread of people talking on yahoo answers?
> 
> Like I said in the previous post that i could not find the thread so you repeating it in your post to some how disprove it is interesting to say the least, I have no reason to lie to you nor do I really care if you think they are or not allowed i was just trying to help you out by saying i saw a vid of dana talking about akido in mma and also in that vid he mentioned that wrist locks fell in the category of things they dont allow in the ufc. Like I said I could care less that you dont believe me I was trying to be nice and do you a favor


well i thought you were arguing against my point not helping me. either way, I apologize if i came off as rude.

btw, the Royce Vs Akebono fight is not that old.. it's actually one of Royce's very late fights, in 2004, under K1 which is a very big and well known MMA org and not some backyard crap. 2004 is not that long ago in MMA terms and the ruleset had become set long before that. So regardless of what you say, it's valid proof of my point unlike anything you posted.


----------



## chilo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4


----------



## M_D

Liddellianenko said:


> well i thought you were arguing against my point not helping me. either way, I apologize if i came off as rude.
> 
> btw, the Royce Vs Akebono fight is not that old.. it's actually one of Royce's very late fights, in 2004, under K1 which is a very big and well known MMA org and not some backyard crap. 2004 is not that long ago in MMA terms and the ruleset had become set long before that. So regardless of what you say, it's valid proof of my point unlike anything you posted.


but K1 does not have the same rule set that ufc does do they, sorry if I am wrong here for I have watched K1 but never really cared to read the rules


----------



## joshua7789

I think the reason that you dont see everyone kung fu fighting is because there kicks tend to be fast as lightning. In fact, its a little bit frightening. Though, they fight with expert timing.


----------



## BobbyCooper

_I think another main reason is, that Kung Fu is from China! The Shaolin fighters don't fight for money. They do Kung fu because it's there life it's a Chinese Philosophy not a Sport for them like Muay Thai for the Thai people or Karate for the Japanese and so on._


----------



## Squirrelfighter

Suvaco said:


> Could you imagine what any decent fighter with Muay Thai training would do to these guys' legs?


Uh...nothing. I've seen that before. My partner used that stance more than once. There's no weight on that leading leg, literally none. The point of that stance--Its a Mantis Form stance, I can't remember which one--is to keep the leg up on the toes and loose, essentially ready to snap a kick without having to shift one's weight back to the rear leg. And the hand positioning. Is ready for a Mantis grasp, a joint lock that's actually crazy effective.


----------



## khoveraki

Squirrelfighter said:


> Uh...nothing. I've seen that before. My partner used that stance more than once. There's no weight on that leading leg, literally none. The point of that stance--Its a Mantis Form stance, I can't remember which one--is to keep the leg up on the toes and loose, essentially ready to snap a kick without having to shift one's weight back to the rear leg. And the hand positioning. Is ready for a Mantis grasp, a joint lock that's actually crazy effective.


It doesn't matter that there's little weight on the front leg, his sciatic nerve is wide open and his hands aren't in a place to defend a high kick, made easier by the low position he's taken. His left wrist is wide open and flat as well, the flying kimura is the easiest flying move to pull off and he's inviting it.


Not to mention anyone with a half decent shoot could pick that ankle in their sleep.


At about six months of Thai Boxing, Greco wrestling, and No-Gi Jiu Jitsu and you will be easily able to dominate someone with only a karate/TKD/Kung Fu background. The Kempo dojo one of my MMA classes is held in, the head Sensei is a fifth degree blackbelt. At less than a year of solid training I was able to pick him apart - you have to understand that there's combat martial arts and then martial arts for show, discipline, etc.


----------



## Squirrelfighter

khoveraki said:


> It doesn't matter that there's little weight on the front leg, his sciatic nerve is wide open and his hands aren't in a place to defend a high kick, made easier by the low position he's taken. His left wrist is wide open and flat as well, the flying kimura is the easiest flying move to pull off and he's inviting it.
> 
> 
> Not to mention anyone with a half decent shoot could pick that ankle in their sleep.
> 
> 
> At about six months of Thai Boxing, Greco wrestling, and No-Gi Jiu Jitsu and you will be easily able to dominate someone with only a karate/TKD/Kung Fu background. The Kempo dojo one of my MMA classes is held in, the head Sensei is a fifth degree blackbelt. At less than a year of solid training I was able to pick him apart - you have to understand that there's combat martial arts and then martial arts for show, discipline, etc.




Yeah okay dude. Whatever you have to tell yourself. There's plenty of takedown defense built into Kung Fu, especially Mantis, which is generally low to the ground, we're talking more than 90 degree angles of the hips. 

And with that Wing Chun guard. He could easily block a leg kick. You don't have to have your hands around your head to block them. Its called reflexes dumbass. As for the sciatic nerve, with no weight on that leg its easy to turn it and check a kick or just lift the leg and evade it...reflexes...they're a glorious thing. 

As for you picking apart a master after less than a year...
First off I'm gonna call bullshit and two even if you did, its not the art its the artist. 

Also, are you implying Kung Fu is an art for only discipline, cuz as far as that snazzy thing called history is concerned, Kung Fu was the main combat art for almost ALL chinese militaries since before the Crusades. Get your facts moron, then come talk to me.


----------



## khoveraki

Squirrelfighter said:


> Yeah okay dude. Whatever you have to tell yourself. There's plenty of takedown defense built into Kung Fu, especially Mantis, which is generally low to the ground, we're talking more than 90 degree angles of the hips.
> 
> And with that Wing Chun guard. He could easily block a leg kick. You don't have to have your hands around your head to block them. Its called reflexes dumbass. As for the sciatic nerve, with no weight on that leg its easy to turn it and check a kick or just lift the leg and evade it...reflexes...they're a glorious thing.
> 
> As for you picking apart a master after less than a year...
> First off I'm gonna call bullshit and two even if you did, its not the art its the artist.
> 
> Also, are you implying Kung Fu is an art for only discipline, cuz as far as that snazzy thing called history is concerned, Kung Fu was the main combat art for almost ALL chinese militaries since before the Crusades. Get your facts moron, then come talk to me.



Yep, you're right, keeping your hands low and open is a great way to block head kicks. :confused05:


Everything in your counter-argument is based around having fast enough reflexes to make up for the shortcomings of the stance and/or martial art as a whole.


----------



## Squirrelfighter

khoveraki said:


> Yep, you're right, keeping your hands low and open is a great way to block head kicks. :confused05:
> 
> 
> Everything in your counter-argument is based around having fast enough reflexes to make up for the shortcomings of the stance and/or martial art as a whole.



Woah wait...are you about to say Muay Thai is a better art than Kung Fu? You are ignorant. 

Kung Fu is based around precepts and concepts that imply the fighter has or can deveolop the ability to move rapidly and with fluidity. Meaning, that when he lifts his leg to dodge your leg kick, he's not just evading, he's throwing a cresent kick to the temple...unconscious. 

Or when you come in to snag his leg for a takedown, he grabs one of your wrists in a mantis grasp and torques it around in the socket while you flail like a dying fish.

Or when you go for a head kick...The weight is shifted onto that lead leg to enact a "Squirrel Block" (Kung Fu's animal name for the roundhouse to the head defense) and in that same motion that brought his weight forward and blocked your kick, he sends a spinning back kick into your chin...unconciousness. 

Do me a favor andd never fight a Kung Fu trained fighter. You'll just embarass yourself because you don't respect the art.


----------



## khoveraki

Squirrelfighter said:


> Do me a favor andd never fight a Kung Fu trained fighter. You'll just embarass yourself because you don't respect the art.


Lol no problem, especially seeing as how there are no Kung Fu trained fighters that come around because it's impractical and doesn't translate well to MMA fighting. :thumbsup:


----------



## Squirrelfighter

khoveraki said:


> Lol no problem, especially seeing as how there are no Kung Fu trained fighters that come around because it's impractical and doesn't translate well to MMA fighting. :thumbsup:



Bullshit! My sparring partner can handle almost anyone in my MMA gym, Karate Studio or Mauy Thai school that I can--and that's most of them!


----------



## khoveraki

Squirrelfighter said:


> Bullshit! My sparring partner can handle almost anyone in my MMA gym, Karate Studio or Mauy Thai school that I can--and that's most of them!


Oh, is that the same North American Praying Mantis style with Wing Chun[g] stance friend that would kill Roy Nelson in two seconds? :sarcastic12:


If only there was some kind of international fighting sport that could pit styles against each other to prove which one is really effective... Then after say, 15 years we'd probably have a decent idea of which styles are good and which styles are for show? 

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say Kickboxing, Wrestling, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, *****, Greco, and Thai Boxing will prove they're effective and Kung Fu will be forgotten by true competitors due to it's impracticality. Then maybe someday someone will make a thread on a forum about it. :thumbsup:


----------



## Squirrelfighter

khoveraki said:


> Oh, is that the same North American Praying Mantis style with Wing Chun[g] stance friend that would kill Roy Nelson in two seconds? :sarcastic12:
> 
> 
> If only there was some kind of international fighting sport that could pit styles against each other to prove which one is really effective... Then after say, 15 years we'd probably have a decent idea of which styles are good and which styles are for show?
> 
> I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say Kickboxing, Wrestling, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, *****, Greco, and Thai Boxing will prove they're effective and Kung Fu will be forgotten by true competitors due to it's impracticality. Then maybe someday someone will make a thread on a forum about it. :thumbsup:


You smarmy imbecilic pathetic human being. Your lack of respect for another martial art with a deep rooted history far longer and more ingraned than your precious thai boxing is disgusting. Its people just like you who think that Mauy Thai is where the striking world ends that make people say MMA fighters are simple minded brawlers. If you knew even a fraction of what you claimed to you'd understand that Kung Fu is just as applicable in MMA as any other war-based fighting style. 

Just admit you know nothing about Kung Fu, and everything you think you know is implied and BS. Don't ever present yourself as knowledgeable again you narcissistic child! And its not North American, its Northern. Tht means its from northern china. Its totally different from Southern, which is based in--not south america--southern china.


----------



## TheGreenMachine

Squirrelfighter said:


> Woah wait...are you about to say Muay Thai is a better art than Kung Fu? You are ignorant.
> 
> Kung Fu is based around precepts and concepts that imply the fighter has or can deveolop the ability to move rapidly and with fluidity. Meaning, that when he lifts his leg to dodge your leg kick, he's not just evading, he's throwing a cresent kick to the temple...unconscious.
> 
> Or when you come in to snag his leg for a takedown, he grabs one of your wrists in a mantis grasp and torques it around in the socket while you flail like a dying fish.
> 
> Or when you go for a head kick...The weight is shifted onto that lead leg to enact a "Squirrel Block" (Kung Fu's animal name for the roundhouse to the head defense) and in that same motion that brought his weight forward and blocked your kick, he sends a spinning back kick into your chin...unconciousness.
> 
> Do me a favor andd never fight a Kung Fu trained fighter. You'll just embarass yourself because you don't respect the art.



The problem is, it takes wayyyy too long to master those "precepts and concepts" and even if you do master them, Kung Fu still has major holes in its game and puts too much emphasis on speed over technique or basic body mechanics. The reason why Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, and BJJ are all time tested and proven arts is because they spar on a daily basis and actively test out new techniques. You can't just reherse moves or katas and expect them to work when you don't know how the human body works when fighting back or what counters to use. I gurantee you that if you put a guy who has sparred for a month in Boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, or Wrestling against a guy of a similar weight who has trained for 6 months in Kung Fu, the former guy would dominate the Kung Fu fighter. 


And before you say something about "well, you don't know jack about Kung Fu", I used to take it when I was a teenager for a few months and eventually got my blue belt. The system was Wuzuquan or Five Ancestors’ Fist (whatever that is lol). I feel that I learned 10x more in my first month of BJJ/Muay Thai/MMA than I did in all my time in Kung Fu or my 1 month in Taekwondo. After I learned how to do just basic things like keeping my hands up, chin tucked, basic head movement, and proper kicks, I looked at new guys and other martial arts and I could just pick apart all the holes in their defenses (and I'm no expert either). I mean sure, you say you could throw a "cresent kick" or whatever kick to someone's temple, but do you yourself even know how to properly block a headkick or check a leg kick? That's even more important than throwing one IMO. 




And lol at "grabbing the wrist and failing like a fish." You know how hard it is to grab another guy's wrist while he is actively fighting back? That's one of the reasons why Karo Paryison had to adapt his Judo to MMA. Its a lot harder to grab another man's sweaty wrists (as opposed to Gi) while he is actively moving or throwing punches. The only time when grabbing the wrist is practical is when you are in the clinch, in which case, Kung Fu has no answer to that and he would get thrown/taking down. There is no complete martial art, but BJJ IMO is the closest there is and Kung Fu guys would get destroyed on the ground or toyed with against a wrestler. Standing, all they have is a puncher's chance against a half decent Muay Thai fighter or Boxer.


----------



## Dtwizzy2k5

khoveraki said:


> Oh, is that the same North American Praying Mantis style with Wing Chun[g] stance friend that would kill Roy Nelson in two seconds? :sarcastic12:
> 
> 
> If only there was some kind of international fighting sport that could pit styles against each other to prove which one is really effective... Then after say, 15 years we'd probably have a decent idea of which styles are good and which styles are for show?
> 
> I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say Kickboxing, Wrestling, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, *****, Greco, and Thai Boxing will prove they're effective and Kung Fu will be forgotten by true competitors due to it's impracticality. Then maybe someday someone will make a thread on a forum about it. :thumbsup:


How do you explain the success of Cung Le and Anthony Johnson if you think Kung Fu is completely ineffective?


----------



## Squirrelfighter

Okay well I see I've wasted my time. I was warned by another user that this threat was a whole lot of Kung Fu haters. And now I see he was right. 

I don't do Kung Fu, but I've been sparring against it for three years. And I can tell you better than most other people on this entire forum that its more than applicable. It just takes more work. You can't be a casual fighter and do Kung Fu. And thats the difference. It takes a hardcore motivation to excel at Kung Fu and my partner has it. That's why he's so good and that's why guys with little if any Kung Fu knowledge really piss me off when they think they can break down the art. So excuse me if I hate Muay Thai and stick up for the original martial art. 

By the way: Karate(all 5 original disciplines), MAUY THAI, Jujitsu, along with all of the other less stylized martial arts are based on Kung Fu. It all came from China, well originally India with Buddism.


----------



## TheGreenMachine

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> How do you explain the success of Cung Le and Anthony Johnson if you think Kung Fu is completely ineffective?


And who has Cung Le been successful against? Cans? Cung Le is the poster child of what not to be in MMA. His GnP sucks. He has no ground game as in poor BJJ, Wrestling, *****, Judo, whatever. His throws are nice, but they have been against lesser opponents. Take away his spinning back kicks and honestly what does his Shan Shou standup have? Poor boxing, head movement, and no KO power? I'm not saying that Shan Shou (obviously one of the only parts of Kung Fu that is going to be slightly successful in MMA), but if Cung Le is the poster child for why Kung Fu is successful in MMA, he isn't doing a very good job. 


Anyone can pull off anything in MMA. Just because you pull off a KO with a spinning backfist doesn't mean that would work against another fighter or in every fight. Samething goes with styles. Just because Lyoto Machida has encorporated his Karate into MMA doesn't mean everyone would be able to pull it off or that it would be effective against an opponent in a more "proven" art that has a better understanding of it. Shogun exposed a lot of holes in Machida's Karate and showed why the wide stance of Karate (or Kung Fu in this instance) is a problem. Any other Karate-based fighter except for Machida would have been finished in that fight by Shogun. As for Anthony Johnson, he got destroyed on the ground and his Kung Fu didn't exactly give him a major advantage on the feet. Its not hard for the guy to look impressive against smaller and less skilled fighters either. Koscheck exposed him too IMO.


----------



## js1316

I would take a Muay Thai fighter over a Kung Fu fighter any day..Kung Fu doesnt work well in MMA if thats all you know, a one dimensional Kung Fu fighter would lose to any MMA fighter with good ground game because thats all he would need to do, just take him down and pound him out. I could see it being somewhat useful if you had Kung Fu and some good greco and bjj though..thats just my opinion.:thumbsup:


----------



## khoveraki

Squirrelfighter said:


> Just admit you know nothing about Kung Fu, and everything you think you know is implied and BS. Don't ever present yourself as knowledgeable again you narcissistic child! And its not North American, its Northern. Tht means its from northern china. Its totally different from Southern, which is based in--not south america--southern china.


I was referring to the North American Praying Mantis, whose existence is threatened due to his ineffectiveness. 



Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> How do you explain the success of Cung Le and Anthony Johnson if you think Kung Fu is completely ineffective?


Well Cung Le was named Black Belt Magazine's best Kung Fu fighter in the world... and he just got KO'd by Scott Smith... Rumble is primarily a kickboxer and a wrestler, he just simply has a Sanshou background but you rarely ever see him use it.



Squirrelfighter said:


> By the way: Karate(all 5 original disciplines), MAUY THAI, Jujitsu, along with all of the other less stylized martial arts are based on Kung Fu. It all came from China, well originally India with Buddism.



Keep in mind, ALL of those Martial Arts came from Pankration.


----------



## BrutalKO

...Kung Fu can be used as a base but it definitely isn't going to be effective unless you become well-rounded with each aspect of the game. Lyoto Machida is the best example so far. Karate is his base but he knows Sumo, Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling & and Muay Thai as well. 
...It's quite obvious that in order to successful in MMA, you have to be well-rounded...
...Joe Rogan made a good point at UFC 98 concerning Machida. "Before Machida was a successful MMA fighter, he was a successful Karate fighter but when you know Wrestling and all those other things as well as being successful at Karate, that's when that skill shines through..."


----------



## Liddellianenko

M_D said:


> but K1 does not have the same rule set that ufc does do they, sorry if I am wrong here for I have watched K1 but never really cared to read the rules


Well that's not the point ... forget the UFC, my question would then be why don't you see more wrist locks in K1 or other japanese orgs, though we know for a fact it's legal there? Why don't we see more Aikido in MMA in the very country where it originates and has thousands of students? Because it doesn't work.


----------



## M_D

Liddellianenko said:


> Well that's not the point ... forget the UFC, my question would then be why don't you see more wrist locks in K1 or other japanese orgs, though we know for a fact it's legal there? Why don't we see more Aikido in MMA in the very country where it originates and has thousands of students? Because it doesn't work.


Hmm im sorry I thought this whole thread was about why there is no akido in the UFC. I did not know your stance on Akido wa sthat it does not work that is a whole nother conversation for I have seen first hand my friends that are very well trained in MMA get there ass whooped by high level Akido people in the gym I used to go to. The fighters were getting so frustrated they lost there composer and almost started bar fighting the Akido guy. I have had many different Akido methods used on me and there is not really time to react in the least one second you are in one postion the next you are flying through the air or in some of the most unusual position and the whole time you are going WTF how did I just get here. 

for debating sake on allot of our points from both sides here is a good article http://slcmma.com/the-truth-about-aikido-in-mma/


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## swpthleg

Guys please don't even get started on aikido, taekwondo, tang soo do, there is a huge bias against any of those self-defense arts on this board for whatever reason.

I have seen SOOO many pissy confrontations over it in the last 3 years or so, and I feel another one starting up, and it's just beating a dead horse at this point.

ANY art, intelligently adapted and possibly combined with other arts by the practitioner, can be effective.


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## M_D

swpthleg said:


> Guys please don't even get started on aikido, taekwondo, tang soo do, there is a huge bias against any of those self-defense arts on this board for whatever reason.
> 
> I have seen SOOO many pissy confrontations over it in the last 3 years or so, and I feel another one starting up, and it's just beating a dead horse at this point.
> 
> ANY art, intelligently adapted and possibly combined with other arts by the practitioner, can be effective.


 way to ruin our fun mom geesh  

still <3 you though


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## Liddellianenko

EDIT: WTF i had this huge elaborate response and it got scrambled. bad internet connection maybe


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## swpthleg

M_D said:


> way to ruin our fun mom geesh
> 
> still <3 you though


Sorry. You'll have to go in separate threads while I go to kickboxing later.


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## machidaisgod

Squirrelfighter said:


> Uh...nothing. I've seen that before. My partner used that stance more than once. There's no weight on that leading leg, literally none. The point of that stance--Its a Mantis Form stance, I can't remember which one--is to keep the leg up on the toes and loose, essentially ready to snap a kick without having to shift one's weight back to the rear leg. And the hand positioning. Is ready for a Mantis grasp, a joint lock that's actually crazy effective.


Suvaco u been pwned.

btw the gentleman that posted this - For me comparing MMA to real life fight is like comparing Wrestlmania to MMA. 

Is absolutley right


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## machidaisgod

khoveraki said:


> It doesn't matter that there's little weight on the front leg, his sciatic nerve is wide open and his hands aren't in a place to defend a high kick, made easier by the low position he's taken. His left wrist is wide open and flat as well, the flying kimura is the easiest flying move to pull off and he's inviting it.
> 
> 
> Not to mention anyone with a half decent shoot could pick that ankle in their sleep.
> 
> 
> At about six months of Thai Boxing, Greco wrestling, and No-Gi Jiu Jitsu and you will be easily able to dominate someone with only a karate/TKD/Kung Fu background. The Kempo dojo one of my MMA classes is held in, the head Sensei is a fifth degree blackbelt. At less than a year of solid training I was able to pick him apart - you have to understand that there's combat martial arts and then martial arts for show, discipline, etc.


Wow you know everything..teach us more master....


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## khoveraki

machidaisgod said:


> Wow you know everything..teach us more master....


Oh you want to learn more? When you have a rep bar, every rep you give is neutral. :thumbsup:


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## Squirrelfighter

> Well Cung Le was named Black Belt Magazine's best Kung Fu fighter in the world... and he just got KO'd by Scott Smith... Rumble is primarily a kickboxer and a wrestler, he just simply has a Sanshou background but you rarely ever see him use it.



Cung Le hasn't fought in almost 2 years (like 21 months or so). He was in that movie Pandorum. He was filming that. So assuming he hasn't been in a fight in two years...yeah his skills are probably shotty now. But you have to admit he had some great skills when he fought regularly. That's why he lost and it wasn't even a bad loss once he finally came back. and 16-0 in Sanshou competition. Multiple bronze medals in international competition. And his MMA record is 3-1, my god he's so horrible! 

As for not using it...look up Sanshou and you'd learn that they put as much emphasis on the side snap as MT does on the roundhouse. Now go look at his fights. Sidesnaps as or more often than roundhouses in his fighting style. 

Also Cung Le doesn't use Kung Fu. Its Chinese Boxing (Sanshou).


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## James Whelan

*Kung*



Squirrelfighter said:


> Bullshit! My sparring partner can handle almost anyone in my MMA gym, Karate Studio or Mauy Thai school that I can--and that's most of them!


Kung Fu can be a good style. I'm takeing a group of MMA fighters out to China this summer to train kung fu and take some fights. Anybody who'd care to come is welcome.


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## James Whelan

*Kung fu and*



Squirrelfighter said:


> Bullshit! My sparring partner can handle almost anyone in my MMA gym, Karate Studio or Mauy Thai school that I can--and that's most of them!


Kung Fu can be a good style. I'm taking a group of MMA fighters out to China this summer to train kung fu and take some fights.  Fighters wouldn't do that just to see the great wall. I had to impress them with my skills first!


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## Sambo de Amigo

somethingclever said:


> not effective in real hand to hand combat.


Why is this thread still going the Correct answer was given in the first reply...................Its not effective and never will be , it focuses on momentum but thats horse shit when a guy is throwing bombs like Junior he will just go through your stupid little wrist movement.


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## astrallite

omgrunaway said:


> People who think kung fu would actually work by itself are the same ones who think bruce lee would actually whoop mike tysons ass.
> 
> I call those people "retards."


Bruce Lee utilized both wrestling and striking. In fact when he challenged most dojo masters he beat them with wrestling. When they tried to strike with him he would just take them to the ground. You are talking about an era way before MMA, and even today I doubt Tyson has trained in any grappling. So no, Bruce Lee has more than a decent shot at winning.


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## Danm2501

Kung Fu can be effective in MMA, it just has to be adapted correctly, and trained correctly when learning it. If you're learning the 'pretty' Kung Fu that looks good in demonstrations you'll get mauled in MMA, but if you do full contact Kung Fu with hard sparring like Shawn Obasi you can make it work in MMA. Same with Taekwondo. Sure, the large majority of the fancy kicks will not work in MMA, but the spinning back kick and the genuinely powerful kicks and strikes can be used in MMA. Dudes like Cung Le and Denis Siver prove that the Taekwondo style of kicks can be effective. If you throw the spinning back kick properly, and are able to cover decent distance, and in a straight line you can generate some serious power, just check the Rogan demonstration video. You kick a dude with one of those kicks to the liver, and they're done. It's all a matter of taking aspects of fighting styles and adapting them to MMA. Completely writing Martial Arts like Kung Fu and Taekwondo off when it comes to MMA is pretty narrow minded. There are guys out there that are making these styles work for them, you just need to decipher which elements of that martial art will be effective. Another example, check Lyoto Machida; who'd have thought Karate mixed with Sumo, Jiu Jitsu and Judo would be effective in MMA? Not many people would rate that skill-set on it's own, but Machida has hand-picked the correct elements of each discipline and adapted it to MMA, and that is what's what makes him a great fighter.


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## JWP

donttouchthat said:


> Kung Fu in MMA, probably not the most effective. But that's not what it was meant for. Kung Fu was not designed to be a sport like BJJ/Wrestling/Boxing/Muay Thai.
> 
> But those of you who say Kung Fu is a joke and not applicable to real life? You're clueless. I wrestled all through highschool, I've been kickboxing for the last 13 years and picked up BJJ in the last 3 years. My brother has a similar background but also trains in Siu Lum Pai Kung Fu. If you think it's not applicable to real life, you probably just don't have any real knowledge of it.
> 
> Similar to the way Muay Thai practitioners strengthen their shins, Kung Fu artists strengthen their forearms and shins. Repetitious beating and clashing to make their bones more dense for when they block. Ever throw a bunch and get blocked by one of these guys? It really hurts.
> 
> They also strengthen their finger tips using sand, then gravel, then wood and on to concrete. Why would they spend so much time strengthening their finger tips? A lot of their attacks are to the eyes. Then you look at other forms which people think are ridiculous, like the tiger claw. One form of attack actually spreads all fingers and rakes down the eyes, so just in case you miss the eyes, you scratch their eyelids. Have you ever had your eye lids scratched? Makes it very difficult to open and close.
> 
> You have to remember, Kung Fu was not designed to score points, it's basically to take apart your opponent as quickly as possible. Many of the strikes are to the eyes, the groin, the throat etc. Of course when you watch videos online you're going to see BJJ guys taking apart Kung Fu guys. How can you really spar using Kung Fu? Unless it's a real life situation and you actually are fighting for your life, you're not going to try and rip someones eyes out or kick them in the groin. Don't discount a martial art based on what you see on youtube.
> 
> I would rather have a well trained Kung Fu artist by my side in a street fight then a well trained BJJ guy or Wrestler.


wow whats this? an intelligent unbiased well thought out post. i cant believe how many ppl here want to use this topic so they can swing their dicks in an 'mma is the best' fashion. not to mention a couple of borderline racist remarks

i agree it seems as if kung fu is not optimum for mma. but i have seen with my own eyes a wingchun master in his 70s perform a one-inch punch and knock a fairly big guy (who was expecting the contact) flying, i also saw the bruise it left

my point is maybe its a good idea not to be so narrow minded. that experience definately taught me that


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## Inkdot

If you boil down kung fu and taekwando and only keep the good stuff your basically left with straight up kick boxing anyway.


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## underwearhero

I've heard Bruce Buffer introduce Roy Nelson as a Kungfu fighter. Great guy to represent the martial art of Kung Fu lol


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## Inkdot

underwearhero said:


> I've heard Bruce Buffer introduce Roy Nelson as a Kungfu fighter. Great guy to represent the martial art of Kung Fu lol


He's like the Kungfu Panda, whats not to like? lol!


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## underwearhero

lol I hadn't even thought of that.


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## rabbit_josh

khoveraki said:


> It doesn't matter that there's little weight on the front leg, his sciatic nerve is wide open and his hands aren't in a place to defend a high kick, made easier by the low position he's taken. His left wrist is wide open and flat as well, the flying kimura is the easiest flying move to pull off and he's inviting it.
> 
> 
> Not to mention anyone with a half decent shoot could pick that ankle in their sleep.
> 
> 
> At about six months of Thai Boxing, Greco wrestling, and No-Gi Jiu Jitsu and you will be easily able to dominate someone with only a karate/TKD/Kung Fu background. The Kempo dojo one of my MMA classes is held in, the head Sensei is a fifth degree blackbelt. At less than a year of solid training I was able to pick him apart - you have to understand that there's combat martial arts and then martial arts for show, discipline, etc.


1, you must obviously have a one sided or limited view. for you to think that you can merely do this or that so any system or style that has been around for over 300 years you must be oblivious or stupid. 
2, there are alot of shit sloppy kung fu's, just like people that can't box for shit. DOES NOT mean that there are not people out there who are ******* great at what they do. its easy to speculate and say what you would do from behind your key board or with your buddy's at the gym. 
3, you have to research about the chinese history and see why kung fu is so polluted in the first place, and why its so hard to find a good teacher. don't be so quick to throw comments and judge things that it sounds like you have very limited knowledge on. 

Just for the record, im not backing up this guys stance, personally I find it impractical and unnecessary. but then again, i have a very limited knowledge in this circumstance.


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## rabbit_josh

BrianRClover said:


> Kung Fu is pretty much nutralized once any form of grappling is involved.


Thats the same as me saying your grappling doesn't work when my first meets your face a couple of times. every style has its pro's.


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## AJClark

While this thread is both an interesting and at times amusing read, there surely isn't anything left to contribute here? Right?

Unless it's a funny utoob clip :thumbsup:


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## rabakill

It's too easy to either close the gap and use more effective strikes (Bas Rutten palm strikes) and it's also to easy to catch one of the kicks and sweep the leg. You have to knock me out with your first kick attempt, while if I catch it and move in you are screwed. Mua Thai is much more effective because it has better close range strikes and is harder to take down. Kung Fu has fancy kicks that don't work if the opponent knows they are coming. Sure you can beat a kung fu fighter with kung fu, but attack someone with mma striking and you are fucked.


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## ASKREN4WIN

Kung Fu is the best base for entering Hollywood. For real fighting not so much.

I mean that Cartoon Panda is P4P the best Kung Fu fighter in the world.


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## JWP

ASKREN4WIN said:


> Kung Fu is the best base for entering Hollywood. For real fighting not so much.
> 
> I mean that Cartoon Panda is P4P the best Kung Fu fighter in the world.



as much as i hate to continue this thread, 'real fighting' is not what the ufc is. there are many rules and a cage. its the closest thing but real fighting has no rules, groin strikes etc etc

kung fu, like alot of traditional martial arts has many of these moves, eye gouges etc. i think anyone who masters these arts would find it very useful in a real fight

if the question is would an a-grade kung fu guy beat an a-grade mma guy in a 'real fight'. id probably take the mma guy because of the advanced grappling

but a knifehand to the throat and groin could quickly change that

your right about the panda tho :thumb02:


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## Life B Ez




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## hadoq

there is kung fu in MMA, it's not obvious because for uneducated people kung fu=movie showoff stuff

MMA means "MIXED" martial arts, so it's in there, "in the mix".

Some show it more than others, like Cung Lee
but many famous fighters use kung fu techniques, including the greatest such as Anderson Silva for example.

it's just not what you see in the movies, movie stuff is barely martial arts, it's more like dancing. real kung fu doesn't look like that.


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## ASKREN4WIN

hadoq said:


> there is kung fu in MMA, it's not obvious because for uneducated people kung fu=movie showoff stuff
> 
> MMA means "MIXED" martial arts, so it's in there, "in the mix".
> 
> Some show it more than others, like Cung Lee
> but many famous fighters use kung fu techniques, including the greatest such as Anderson Silva for example.
> 
> it's just not what you see in the movies, movie stuff is barely martial arts, it's more like dancing. real kung fu doesn't look like that.


I thought Kung Le was a black belt in Tae Kwon Do?


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## VolcomX311

Tommo565 said:


> I am sure I have heard a UFC fighter introduced as a Jeet-Kun-Do fighter before. Anyone got any ideas who?


Tank Abbot claimed jeet kun do


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