# Jordan Breen on Crocop - never really that good



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

I don't know if many of you caught the roundtable show after UFC 103, but Breen basically laid out the argument that Crocop really doesn't have that impressive a resume. He basically said he's never fought anyone with hands like dos Santos, and even in his prime would have lost. 

Interesting, because I've been saying this for a while.

Here's the show.

My point? Well, just that the HW division in all of mma has been very weak until now (relative to other divisions). Yet another reason why I think Fedor is overrated, and Lesnar, Carwin and dos Santos are underrated. In fact I'm not even sure Fedor is going to get out of Strikeforce without a loss. We'll see.


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## Sicilian_Esq (Sep 7, 2008)

Timmy said Fedor has the hardest hits he's ever taken. 

Dos Santos is good, but let's not get carried away here.


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## shatterproof (Jul 16, 2008)

anyone who thinks Mirko doesn't deserve the many accolades he has earned over his career have quite obviously not been watching him through the years. Plain and simple. He was a beast in K1 where he beat Aerts, Bonjasky, Hunt and others and clearly dominated the majority of Pride's HWs in impressive fashion. Heck, he may well have been a K1 GP champ (having beat Bonjasky and Aerts) if not for coming up against Mr Perfect, Ernesto Hoost, twice.

Breen is a tool. Revisionist combat sports record keeping = dicktarded.

he's simply lost his killer instinct and anyone who's stepped into a ring or cage can relate in some way. Measuring him agaisnt a rising star -- while in the twighlight of his career -- is just stupid. 

Fight careers are not linear.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Breen obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. Cro Cops K1 record speaks for itself. Plus he hung in there with Fedor and Wanderlei in his prime. How many people can say that?


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

I would still bet on crocop against most people if they were fighting in a ring. The dude is a pure kickboxer who can do a lot of damage when he has the space to operate in. Crocop was great, just not much for fighting in a cage.

Also, didnt he knock Remy out? That is pretty damn impressive, i think only one other guy has ever been able to do that.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

What's interesting is, he was discussing this with Jeff, whose a bigtime Cop fan, and even Jeff started to agree with him. One of the questions was, who has Cop beaten that was comparable to dos Santos? Wandi? a middle weight with all kinds of defensive deficiencies. Barnett - who at the time was an even weaker striker than his is now? And all of his losses were by guys that took the fight straight to him. The guy is a highlight reel finisher, but so are a lot of mediocre fighters. Quite a few K1 fighters were able to take him out as well. 

BTW, I don't think he meant to take anything away from Cop's legacy, but was just saying these losses should have been predictable. Nor did he doubt Cop was better a few years back, just not that much better.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

No Comment.

EDIT: In fact I have a comment!

Everybody is overrated once they start losing.


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

That's flawed logic. Consider this: Alexander Karelin was the most feared Olympic wrestler of all time. He terrorized his opponents to the point that they laid down for him to pin them. He also went around 7 or 8 years without even giving up a point. 

Gardner beat him in the 2000 Olympics though because of a rule change regarding the clinch. Does that mean he was never great to begin with? Does that mean during all that time he was "overrated" and faced "weak opposition"? That's what kind of crap people are giving Crocop. The guy was great and he was in the top 5 3 years ago, but his body cannot handle the exhaustion anymore. Watch his earlier fights and notice the speed, power, timing, and accuracy Crocop possessed compared to now.


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## shatterproof (Jul 16, 2008)

Everyone who did well in Pride came up against scrubs at one point or another. 

That does nothing to qualify an argument that those people weren't every bit as talented as their accolades and fans would suggest. The very same argument could be made for Wand, Sakuraba, etc, and it'd be equally stillborn in most if not all cases.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

Another comment!

He never faced someone with hands like Dos Santos. Ever heard of Igor Vovchanchyn?


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

For me it's pretty cut and dry. I don't have money on any of these horses try to just step back and look at things objectively. The level of one's opponents matters. No HW fighter at this point should be even close to the p4p list. They simply haven't caught up to the lower weight divisions, and are only now starting to get close. There's hope! But considering how the former Pride HW's are doing currently in mma, I'm simply not seeing what all the hype is about. 

And while some may not be as sharp as they once were, they're still right around the same level. The main difference is, their opponents are better. (Except for Fedor who's done a bang up job of avoiding good opponents).


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## Curly (Aug 20, 2007)

Calminian said:


> My point? Well, just that the HW division in all of mma has been very weak until now (relative to other divisions). Yet another reason why I think Fedor is overrated, and Lesnar, Carwin and dos Santos are underrated.


I've never understood the passion fans have towards Cro Cop, I like watching his fights but I don't hold him at the same level other fight fans do. I seldom bring this up because those who like him get very defensive about him and I don't like to get negative reps.  The truth is Cro Cop is a kick boxer who has done very well in MMA with a one dimensional game because he is good at stuffing the takedowns. 



Calminian said:


> *In fact I'm not even sure Fedor is going to get out of Strikeforce without a loss*. We'll see.


He will. Fedor is a protected fighter. Until he fights great fighters he will not even be tested.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Curly said:


> He will. Fedor is a protected fighter. Until he fights great fighters he will not even be tested.


I agree he's being protected, I just wonder if they may have underestimated some of his "easy" opponents.


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## Curly (Aug 20, 2007)

Calminian said:


> I agree he's being protected, I just wonder if they may have underestimated some of his "easy" opponents.


I wish they would, it would take a lot of confusion out of the HW division. As long as Fedor is in the picture a dark shadow will hang over the UFC's HW division. Brock may truly be the toughest HW there is but he, and everyone else, has to stand in Fedors shadow because the Russian wont fight them. 

Some reports are telling us this man is more concerned with protecting his undefeated (almost undefeated) record than he is in fighting top class fighters. At what point do we take him out of the top heavy weight position? Will he forever be held as the best even though he has not fought any of the new greats? If he retired tomorrow would we call him the best ever or would we call him the best of his time?


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Crocop could go to strikeforce. There Heavyweight roster consists of Fedor, UFC rejects, a joke of a champ in Overreem and a mystery in Brett Rogers. I bet Crocop would do okay there. Seems like where he belongs, if not he should go beat some cans in Japan.


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## ufcrules (Jan 11, 2007)

That is BS. How can someone disregard Cro Cop's resume and hilite reel which Rogan said on Saturday is the best in history, and I happen to agree. That dude is a wanker.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

ufcrules said:


> That is BS. How can someone disregard Cro Cop's resume and hilite reel which Rogan said on Saturday is the best in history, and I happen to agree. That dude is a wanker.


Actually that's an area where Breen agrees with you. I do too, actually. He's perhaps one of the greatest highlight reel fighters of all time. When he gets the right opponent, he shines like no other. 

I really don't want to take anything away from him, I just agree that his losses should have been predictable and expected. I don't think even a prime Crocop belongs in today's HW division.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

I was never a CC fan I must admit, and during the Pride days I thought he was a bit overrated(only slighty though) due to the nuthuggery that was infecting fools. That being said, the revisionist mentally that he was never good, or medicore is laughable. Give the man his due, and don't compare his current state to his prime state. To say that a prime CC could not hang with the current HW division is a joke. Of course he could, and would be a top 5er on top of that. I think Dos Santos is overrated, but he's the current nut ride offering willing fans a discount.



Freelancer said:


> No Comment.
> 
> EDIT: In fact I have a comment!
> 
> Everybody is overrated once they start losing.



Geez I'm glad someone said it :thumbsup:


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## evilappendix (Jan 4, 2007)

To say Crocop's resume is unimpressive is just plain obtuse. :confused02:


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Calminian said:


> My point? Well, just that the HW division in all of mma has been very weak until now (relative to other divisions). Yet another reason why I think Fedor is overrated, and Lesnar, Carwin and dos Santos are underrated. In fact I'm not even sure Fedor is going to get out of Strikeforce without a loss. We'll see.


The HW division in PRIDE once contained Fedor, Mirco, Big Nog, (young) Mark Coleman, (young & hungry) Mark Kerr, Igor Vovchanchyn, Josh Barnett, Aleks, Randleman.... relatively in the same generation. 

The HW class in the "UFC" has been historically weak, (philosophically, it still is), but the HW class in that generation of PRIDE fighters was arguably one of the deepest divisions in all of MMA history. You could argue that the top 5 MMA'ists in the world (at that time), were all in that same division; Fedor, Mirco, Big Nog, Barnett and Kerr. 

Lesnar does not make the UFC HW division "deep," it makes their championship belt around the waste of a dominant figure. There's a huge margin from Brock to the rest of the pool. PRIDE's HW division was deep. 

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just say'n. You can't clump UFC's HW history with PRIDE's, because I see that all the time.


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## swedish_fighter (Jul 12, 2009)

It always gets like this to those who keeps fighting "just a bit longer" and doing comebacks. Brock, or if you prefer Fedor will eventually lose too if they keep fighting.

Eventually you get old. =/ And you will have all those people who trash you and say how much better the new guys are since they beat you. I personally think its unfair to call him a bad fighter from this one time performance.

CC has taken heavy punches before, this is ridiculous. :thumbsdown:

As Tim Silvia former UFC heavyweight CHAMP says about Fedor (at 01:10-01:14) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4d7Fua-hao he never been hit as hard as Fedor hit before. CC also has gotten a beating by Fedor so Iam sure he has met heavy hands before. CC was simply out of shape/afraid of the cage/not himself. CC has an impressive resume, he has fought most of the best there was to fight when he was "in shape". :confused03:


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

and P.S. I may be one of the most avid Lesnar fans here, so that remark about Brock not making the UFC's HW class deep wasn't a haters response.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

swedish_fighter said:


> It always gets like this to those who keeps fighting "just a bit longer" and doing comebacks. Brock, or if you prefer Fedor will eventually lose too if they keep fighting.
> 
> Eventually you get old. =/ And you will have all those people who trash you and say how much better the new guys are since they beat you. I personally think its unfair to call him a bad fighter from this one time performance.


Problem is, they're all still young, most younger than Carwin. And they're about the same age as Lesnar. The whole, "they're old now" argument just doesn't fly with me. 



swedish_fighter said:


> As Tim Silvia former UFC heavyweight CHAMP says about Fedor (at 01:10-01:14) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4d7Fua-hao he never been hit as hard as Fedor hit before. CC also has gotten a beating by Fedor so Iam sure he has met heavy hands before. CC was simply out of shape/afraid of the cage/not himself. CC has an impressive resume, he has fought most of the best there was to fight when he was "in shape". :confused03:


Well, we know Tim will be sining a different tune now that he's been KO'd by Mercer. All Crocop's "good" opponents have beaten him. I think that was Breen's point. Who is Cop's biggest victory? Wandi? Barnnett? What can I say?


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

Remember how Chuck became overrated as soon as Rampage took his belt?


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> The HW division in PRIDE once contained Fedor, Mirco, Big Nog, (young) Mark Coleman, (young & hungry) Mark Kerr, Igor Vovchanchyn, Josh Barnett, Aleks, Randleman.... relatively in the same generation.


I know this is like supposed to be self evidently convincing, but sorry, I just don't get it. Coleman? - LHW - beat by a lot of guys. Randleman? - also a LHW, and beat by other LHW's. Barnett? - beat by Cop 3 times. 

Who in this group kept winning? The only one is Fedor and we all know he's not fighting the best.



vandalian said:


> Remember how Chuck became overrated as soon as Rampage took his belt?


Not really. He really is old! So is Randy. These Pride guys are spring chickens compared to those two.


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## burgito (Aug 2, 2009)

vandalian said:


> Remember how Chuck became overrated as soon as Rampage took his belt?


EXACLY!!!!!!!!


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

vandalian said:


> Remember how Chuck became overrated as soon as Rampage took his belt?


That was kinda different. A lot of hardcore fans had thought that Chuck was overrated for awhile because he got his ass handed to him by the number three lhw in pride. These suspicions were confirmed when Rampage handed him his ass yet again in the UFC where all mma fans could see. Chuck was definetely overrated.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Ahh, another thread trying to pull down another legend of the sport because they are not what they once were.

You know, it's really funny, people look at records, not ACTUAL FIGHTS. How about the people that think Cro Cop was not that good, go back and watch his fights? If you can't see the difference, then you have no idea, NO IDEA at all about striking or how to tell how good a fighter is based off their skill, not their resume. 

Cro Cop had amazing speed, explosiveness, he was very aggressive, took risks, went all out and put on a fight, a real good fight. He would set up his high kicks with beautiful, BEAUTIFUL hand combinations and power, he'd throw many combinations and kicks. He was an attacker, a killer, he pushed a pace and he went all out. 

The Cro Cop that fought Dos at 103 was a man who was slow, had no explosiveness, wasn't aggressive, had 0 combinations, only threw his straight left, that too without actually looking for the finish, and threw only a few kicks.

Compare him from when he fought Aleks and Wanderlei, to when he fought Dos. He's not the same fighter, not even close. You can tell this if you have any sort of understanding for striking or skill, not just records and resumes. Even with that said, Cro Cop has an awesome resume.

I hate threads like this.


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## swedish_fighter (Jul 12, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Problem is, they're all still young, most younger than Carwin. And they're about the same age as Lesnar. The whole, "they're old now" argument just doesn't fly with me.


Old is the wrong word. But the point I was trying to make was that eventually all get out of shape and start losing. If this has to do with previous injuries, lack of training, improper training, lack of motivation, some psychological factor.. I don't know but eventually you get your ass kicked if you keep fighting since you can't impossible keep the same elite ass shape and focus all the time.. It applies to all sports that the top guns gets replaced, some may have it a bit longer, but eventually you become "not part of the elite". And especially in fighting people will start trashing you.



Calminian said:


> The only one is Fedor and we all know he's not fighting the best.


Lets be honest here, Fedor is not a sucky guy, I don't say Fedor would win. But Brock isn't fighting the best either unless he proves himself and fight mr Fedor. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## FredFish1 (Apr 22, 2007)

Couldn't agree more with Volcom. Seriously, the PRIDE HW division was the deepest pool of talent in the world at the time. Don't agree with Kerr, but there were other legitimate fighters in the division to really shake it up. Pride started with a HW class, and to date there has never been an equivalent HW class in any organization.

Never fought good strikers? Igor anyone?
Mark Hunt, Le Banner, Aerts, Bojansky? Seriously? 

Yeah cro-cops resume has had some hitches, especially recently. But look at the way he used to fight, he struck fear in to opponents for good reason.

Beating Barnett 3 times, and Barnett was probably juicing at the time. Impressive.
Ko'ing a prime wandy? Giving wandy his first ever KO loss.
ON THE SAME FKING NIGHT AS BEATING BARNETT? At the moment in time cro-cop was the best fighter in the world.

Beating Aleks and Igor? Both very game dangerous opponents. Heath herring at the time was a legitimate top 5 HW.
A young and hungry coleman? Who was probably juicing at the time.

Cro-cop has a great resume, the problem is a lot of his wins were of the previous generation. A lot of the names aren't immediate recognizable talent especially to the newer guys who didn't follow Pride. But believe me, go back and watch cro-cop strike. He revolutionized the circling sprawl. And he struck fear in to people.

He used to set things up with his hands, and throw leg kicks and combinations and he was god damn deadly. He has a legendary status for a reason...  I'm gonna go watch Conflict Absolute for nostalgia. **** you Mirko haters.


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## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

CroCop is a legend, and has stood with the some of the best fighters in the world. It's pretty obvious that since the demise of Pride, he hasn't had the passion to fight.

I wish him the best. He'll be missed.

*P.S.*_ Breen and Sherwood change their opinion depending on the situation. DeSantis and Lotfi are awesome, though._


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

FredFish1 said:


> ...Ko'ing a prime wandy? Giving wandy his first ever KO loss.....


Didn't Belfort KO wandi before Cop? And you do realize Wandi's a true middleweight?


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## sutemiwaza4tw (Sep 18, 2009)

Freelancer said:


> No Comment.
> 
> EDIT: In fact I have a comment!
> 
> Everybody is overrated once they start losing.


^^^^This!


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

swedish_fighter said:


> Old is the wrong word. But the point I was trying to make was that eventually all get out of shape and start losing. If this has to do with previous injuries, lack of training, improper training, lack of motivation, some psychological factor.. I don't know but eventually you get your ass kicked if you keep fighting since you can't impossible keep the same elite ass shape and focus all the time.. It applies to all sports that the top guns gets replaced, some may have it a bit longer, but eventually you become "not part of the elite". And especially in fighting people will start trashing you.


mma's a little different though as it's evolving so quickly. And I don't think I'm saying Crocop was overrated, I just don't think a prime Cop is hanging in today's UFC HW div. 

That's not a slam, because I don't think a prime Liddell is hanging with Machida. But I in now way think Liddell was overrated. 

But the HW division is especially interesting because it's always been so weak, not having too many true HW's. 



swedish_fighter said:


> Lets be honest here, Fedor is not a sucky guy, I don't say Fedor would win. But Brock isn't fighting the best either unless he proves himself and fight mr Fedor. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


Only to the hardcore Fedor fans. I don't buy it. Lesnar needs to get past Carwin, Valasquez and dos Santos. Those guys are ripping to pieces all of Fedor's greatest accomplishments. Those are the best right now. And those may well all rip apart Fedor. I think Mir may be able to take Fedor as well.

I think Fedor is looking more and more like a ducker going to Strikeforce. And if he loses there, it's over for him. Dana will turn his back on him.


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## GMK13 (Apr 20, 2009)

he didnt seem to interested the fight before last, didnt he want to leave the ufc for good?


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

You know J. Breen is fairly knowledgeable in the MMA world, but he just comes across as one of those kids in schools that likes to correct the teachers about extremely trivial shit. Something about him rubs me the wrong way. In fact I'd like to be on a talk show with him and then have him say something stupid then I'll attempt a flying armbar on him. 

He even discredits his win in the OWGP in Pride. Winning two fights, then Wand, and fighting Barnett in the finals gotta count for something.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

No_Mercy said:


> You know J. Breen is fairly knowledgeable in the MMA world, but he just comes across as one of those kids in schools that likes to correct the teachers about extremely trivial shit. Something about him rubs me the wrong way. In fact I'd like to be on a talk show with him and then have him say something stupid then I'll attempt a flying armbar on him.
> 
> He even discredits his win in the OWGP in Pride. Winning two fights, then Wand, and fighting Barnett in the finals gotta count for something.


Then it probably got you really mad when Sherwood was forced to agree and admit his bias. 

To me, it's much to do about nothing. If he gave you some good shows, then enjoy the memories. I don't see why questioning his absolute invincibility should ruin that for you. 

The sport is evolving and most of the prime fighters of old, could not hang with the prime fighters of now. Matt Hughes isn't that old yet, but I don't think he'll ever come close to the belt. He's declined just a little, but the competition has taken off. Does that mean Hughes is not a legend? Of course not. He was a legend in his own time.

Now, frankly, I don't rank Cop up there with even Hughes, but I don't think that's a slap. The guy was good. But maybe not as good as many thought.


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## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Then it probably got you really mad when Sherwood was forced to agree and admit his bias.
> 
> To me, it's much to do about nothing. If he gave you some good shows, then enjoy the memories. I don't see why questioning his absolute invincibility should ruin that for you.
> 
> ...


We can all agree that he's not _Top 10_ material, but you're being pretty harsh on the guy.


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## shatterproof (Jul 16, 2008)

Calminian said:


> Lesnar needs to get past Carwin, Valasquez and dos Santos. Those guys are ripping to pieces all of Fedor's greatest accomplishments.


between this comment, and your feelings on Mirko... jeeze :sarcastic12:

It was called Pride FC, and there are a plethora of DVDs available to educate you on it's history and that of this sport durring the late 90s and early 00s. And please, PLEASE, stop giving that fat, fried cheese-eating d-bag, Jeff Sherdog any sort of credibility. just a mouth peice with a hate-on for any and all things UFC -- he talked shit about Mirko when he signed with the UFC too. the guy is clownshoes.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Calminian said:


> I think Mir may be able to take Fedor as well.


We'll just have to agree to disagree on this speculation.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

UrbanBounca said:


> We can all agree that he's not _Top 10_ material, but you're being pretty harsh on the guy.


I can tell you I didn't mean to be. I just thought Breen was right on the money in his assessment. I don't think he was trying to be harsh in him either. I have nothing against him. I just agree with you he's not top 10.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

Breen is an idiot. CC has done a lot of amazing things in regards to K1 and MMA and it's stupid to try and talk him down now that he's not on top anymore. I hate that shit.


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## Curly (Aug 20, 2007)

I don't see Mir beating Fedor- ever. But I do agree with you on this:



Calminian said:


> I think Fedor is looking more and more like a ducker going to Strikeforce.


Fedor *is* a fight ducker, it came out about 6 months ago that he wanted to protect his record and preserve his legacy. To me his legacy is that of a very very talented fighter who at the end of his career avoided the big fights to protect his record. 

*Roy Jones?* Remember when he was the god of boxing? Roy was thought to be better than everyone else by miles and miles, but when he was forced into fighting the ones he had been avoiding he was exposed as a mortal man. Talented yes, unbeatable? NO.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Crocop clearly outboxed Dos Santos for the entire fight so I don't see how anyone with a brain could say he had better hands. He had far better natural athletic gifts that is for sure. All this stuff about crocop not being good because he is old or isn't mentally right is bullshit. He is still a great striker he didn't get considerably less skilled it is just that everyone he has been facing is a genetic freakshow with skills and he is the smallest HW in the UFC hell like half of the LHWs weigh more than him when they fight.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

osmium said:


> Crocop clearly outboxed Dos Santos for the entire fight so I don't see how anyone with a brain could say he had better hands......


:confused05:


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## PanicDisorder (Sep 6, 2009)

Crocop looked awful in that fight. He made some decent left hand jabs. But the ky word is some. Hr pushed Santos around the hole fight.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Curly said:


> Fedor *is* a fight ducker, it came out about 6 months ago that he wanted to protect his record and preserve his legacy. To me his legacy is that of a very very talented fighter who at the end of his career avoided the big fights to protect his record.



Uh... it came out six months ago? What are you talking about? This is the kind of thing you need to source. I've read in dozens of articles and dozens of interviews and his book that he's very religious and is not at all concerned about his legacy. He's always expressed interest and follow through about fighting the best HWs. I remember when people said Fedor was ducking Crocop because Fedor broke his finger... He was scheduled to fight Sylvia, Arlovski, and Barnett who were all top 5 heavyweights at the time. 

Plus you can see when he comes in 2nd or 3rd in national ***** tournaments that it doesn't bug him at all or stop him from competing. It's simply not on his mind to preserve his "legacy."



And to the OP: Don't listen to what anyone tells you, just watch old CroCop fights. Are those combos amazing? How fast is his punching speed? How accurate are his leg kicks? How dedicated and serious does he appear? He was one of the best when he wanted to be.

Even now while daydreaming about fishing, slipping on the mats and half blind, he still easily avoided a KO from "the most lethal striker in the UFC" for three full rounds and bloodied and bruised him up without taking much damage.


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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

joshua7789 said:


> Crocop could go to strikeforce. There Heavyweight roster consists of Fedor, UFC rejects, a joke of a champ in Overreem and a mystery in Brett Rogers. I bet Crocop would do okay there. Seems like where he belongs, if not he should go beat some cans in Japan.



A joke of a champ that was beating the crap out of CroCop in dream?


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Chileandude said:


> A joke of a champ that was beating the crap out of CroCop in dream?


That doesnt really diminish my point at all. Overreem hasnt beaten anyone worthwhile at heavyweight. He hasnt beaten a single top ten heavyweight, so yes, he is a joke of a heavyweight champ.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Yeah, every HW ever sucks. C'mon you guys give it a rest. Overeem is fast and decently well rounded with massive power and good strategy. Why are keyboard jockies so quick to label a champ as a joke?

Where's Negative1? Ask anyone who's been in the cage if Overeem or Crocop is a joke.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

if crocop hadnt cried about that groin shot overeem would have won the fight pretty easily barring some kind of flash KO. crocop didn't put up any real fight even before the nutshot. in the UFC, it would have gone very differently, and likely it would in strikeforce too. The US is much less likely to allow NC/DQ over accidental fouls.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Things that should have or would have happened dont mean anything. I dont deny that Overreem has talent, the point im making is that i dont put much stock into the strikeforce heavyweight title. Overreem could be the best heavyweight in the world, but until he beats someone truly notable, his belt doesnt amount to much. Overreem hasnt proven anything at heavyweight, he isnt even top ten if your being realistic when you put your top ten list together. People get ranked by beating other ranked fighters. I dont hate overreem, i just dont think he deserves the pedestal that a lot of people put him on. His mma record isnt anything amazing and his record in k1 is terrible.


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## LCRaiders (Apr 7, 2008)

How was Cro Cop never really that good? With everything that he accomplished in K-1, Pride, and MMA in general. At one point in time he was considered the best striker in the world and now he was 'never really that good'? Makes no sense to me at all..

Long live 'The Croatian Sensation' :thumbsup:


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

LCRaiders said:


> How was Cro Cop never really that good? With everything that he accomplished in K-1, Pride, and MMA in general. At one point in time he was considered the best striker in the world and now he was 'never really that good'? Makes no sense to me at all..
> 
> Long live 'The Croatian Sensation' :thumbsup:


pat miletich wants his name back! :thumb02:


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## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

joshua7789 said:


> Things that should have or would have happened dont mean anything. I dont deny that Overreem has talent, the point im making is that i dont put much stock into the strikeforce heavyweight title. Overreem could be the best heavyweight in the world, but until he beats someone truly notable, his belt doesnt amount to much. Overreem hasnt proven anything at heavyweight, he isnt even top ten if your being realistic when you put your top ten list together. People get ranked by beating other ranked fighters. I dont hate overreem, i just dont think he deserves the pedestal that a lot of people put him on. His mma record isnt anything amazing and his record in k1 is terrible.


You think Belfort should have a title shot. Belfort has been defeated by Overeem twice. You think Overeem is overrated. :confused02:


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

UrbanBounca said:


> You think Belfort should have a title shot. Belfort has been defeated by Overeem twice. You think Overeem is overrated. :confused02:


Belfort is a natural middleweight. Those fights were a long time ago. Most mma fans are aware that what matters is what happens recently. Also, Belfort just destroyed a top five middleweight (i know, the fight was at 195). I realize that Overreem has some decent wins, but no top ten wins at heavyweight. Wins over Hunt, Buentello (decent but not top ten), Tae Hun Lee and Gary Goodridge arent to special.


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## LCRaiders (Apr 7, 2008)

HexRei said:


> pat miletich wants his name back! :thumb02:


Lol, it just fits so well with Cro Cop


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## Halebop (Oct 10, 2006)

I don't know who Breen is but I do know he is getting exactly what he wanted on this forum and no doubt every other one by giving a diminishing commentary about an MMA legend like Crocop. 

Guys like me are wondering who he is. I don't want to know just to discourage shitty journalism.

There are many different ways you can spin the biggest names in this sport. I like the poster who said everyone is overated once they start losing. My personal take on Crocop is that his striking skill set was amazing but the HW division simply outgrew him in size and much like other legends that were made when Crocop was made....he failed to evolve (Hi Matt Hughes)


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

jordan breen, controversial of course, is one of the most prominent reporters in the sport. of course he wants his reports to be discussed.


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## Judoka (Feb 23, 2007)

Someone needs to punch this guy in the face.

Never fought someone with striking like Dos Santos? Dos Santos is good but honestly he has fought Aerts etc and a BUNCH of world class strikers in the K1 and brutal striker Igor Vovchanchyn and lighting quick striker Aleks Emelianenko. Matching those guys is impressive let alone beating them.

Legends lose their fire, just because they are a legend does not mean they will be 75 and still be kicking ass like they did in their prime.

Cro Cop is a legend in the sport, and will go down in history as a fantastic striker.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

dos santos is also a BJJ purple belt and he fought crocop in MMA, crocop has a terrible ground game and you can't judge striking in MMA against striking in kickboxing. They are not the same, takedowns completely change the nature of standup imho. Crocop got beat on the feet but I bet he would have been more aggressive in a kickboxing rules only fight.


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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

joshua7789 said:


> That doesnt really diminish my point at all. Overreem hasnt beaten anyone worthwhile at heavyweight. He hasnt beaten a single top ten heavyweight, so yes, he is a joke of a heavyweight champ.


your point was that CroCop would do well against the guys in Strikeforce, he wasn't doing well against Overeem.


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## ufcrules (Jan 11, 2007)

Calminian said:


> Actually that's an area where Breen agrees with you. I do too, actually. He's perhaps one of the greatest highlight reel fighters of all time. When he gets the right opponent, he shines like no other.
> 
> I really don't want to take anything away from him, I just agree that his losses should have been predictable and expected. I don't think even a prime Crocop belongs in today's HW division.


C'mon man. Nobody can deny he's fought many of the best fighters ever to fight MMA. IMO, great fights make great fighters. CRO COP=GREAT FIGHTER. No denying it.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Freelancer said:


> No Comment.
> 
> EDIT: In fact I have a comment!
> 
> Everybody is overrated once they start losing.


Quoted for truth. This thread pisses me off a lot, TBH. Myopic.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Chileandude said:


> your point was that CroCop would do well against the guys in Strikeforce, he wasn't doing well against Overeem.


My point was that Crocop belongs in a second rate organization with second rate fighters. That would be strikeforce.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

joshua7789 said:


> My point was that Crocop belongs in a second rate organization with second rate fighters. That would be strikeforce.


yeah, like that fedor guy that kicked his ass in his prime


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

HexRei said:


> yeah, like that fedor guy that kicked his ass in his prime


Fedor is the exception, not the rule in strikeforce. Also, i dont mean to say that Crocop is terrible, just not competitive at this point in his career.


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## El Greco (Sep 22, 2009)

MMA used to be the heavyweight division, more or less. It's misguided to say that it has historically been weak. It has actually been the strongest division in MMA for a lot of its existence.


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## stanzi (Sep 24, 2008)

swedish_fighter said:


> CC has taken heavy punches before, this is ridiculous.


The greatest exchange of punches he's been involved in is, if I remember well, K1 finale 1999. I know it's not entirely comparable to challenges in MMA, but just look how Hoost and him are knocking each other down in endless series of strikes, untill Hoost finally landed two hits which were finally too much for CC. Great fight nevertheless, so technically pure...
And CC wasn't even in his prime then (Hoost was), because all those high kicks would smash the house down just a couple of years later...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UcT53N7eq4


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

This thread stinks.

On the very first f**king page there is a highlight reel of CroCops. Did you all look at it? Did you see those blurs? Those kicks alone are a thing of beauty and anybody who cant appreciate how truly special they are is lobotomised. CroCop of saturday is barely 50% speed wise of the old one. The Pride CroCop would have brutalized Dos Santos, of that I'm 100% sure.


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## Bob Pataki (Jun 16, 2007)

stanzi said:


> The greatest exchange of punches he's been involved in is, if I remember well, K1 finale 1999. I know it's not entirely comparable to challenges in MMA, but just look how Hoost and him are knocking each other down in endless series of strikes, untill Hoost finally landed two hits which were finally too much for CC. Great fight nevertheless, so technically pure...
> And CC wasn't even in his prime then (Hoost was), because all those high kicks would smash the house down just a couple of years later...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UcT53N7eq4


Is it me or has CroCop always looked to struggle when he gets tired? I know Hoost kicked the hell out of his leg, but I've noticed before how Mirko starts to look uncomfortable and slows right down.

Anyway, that video shows how rapid CroCop used to be. Especially the first round which he won.


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## Pr0d1gy (Sep 25, 2006)

There is a lot of Pride bias on this board, and in general, nowadays.

People need to stop talking down on older formerly great Pride fighters. Cro Cop and Fedor would have beat Dos Santos and every other HW fighter in the UFC short of Lesnar in their prime...and I think Fedor would and still could beat Lesnar.


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## name goes here (Aug 15, 2007)

Freelancer said:


> No Comment.
> 
> EDIT: In fact I have a comment!
> 
> Everybody is overrated once they start losing.


Yeah I remember those 'Chuck Liddel was never that good' threads. Were months before everyone were playing with themselves and saying his name in every other thread.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

I would believe that Mark Hunt hits harder than Dos Santos.

Cro Cop used to be a great fighter, don't believe anyone who says differently. They are as dense as can be. Pure troglodytes.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

Damone said:


> I would believe that Mark Hunt hits harder than Dos Santos.
> 
> Cro Cop used to be a great fighter, don't believe anyone who says differently. They are as dense as can be. Pure troglodytes.


Igor hits harder than Santos probably by tenfold.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

name goes here said:


> Yeah I remember those 'Chuck Liddel was never that good' threads. Were months before everyone were playing with themselves and saying his name in every other thread.


Hmm. I actually didn't see any of those. Chuck got old. Cop is still young. That's the difference. Plus, Cop lost to every good fighter he faced. Chuck beat em. 

Sorry, analogy fails.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Plus, Cop lost to every good fighter he faced. *Chuck beat em. *
> 
> Sorry, analogy fails.


Tell that to Rampage, no wait, tell him twice. Unless you're describing a fighter with an undefeated record, you really shouldn't be using absolutes, like "every."

I'll let the whole Jardine thing slide, "age" as you say, but again, tell that to Couture.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> Tell that to Rampage, no wait, tell him twice. Unless you're describing a fighter with an undefeated record, you really shouldn't be using absolutes, like "every."
> 
> I'll let the whole Jardine thing slide, "age" as you say, but again, tell that to Couture.


Hey Rampage is tough. No doubt about that. But Chuck's decline was very quick. That's how age works. Chuck's best years were in the UFC prior to the Rampage fight. The Jardine fight is a great example. Couture is also old and declining fast. The same guy that once out struck Chuck got out struck by a slow Nog. Both are real examples of getting old. For Crocop, it's just not true. The guy is still young and shouldn't be declining yet. 

Come on guys. Crocop was good, but let's not get crazy and compare him to Chuck. A Couture comparison would be more rational.


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## ufcrules (Jan 11, 2007)

I would urge, as others have, that anyone reading this bogus thread to have a look at any of the many CC videos available on youtube. The man was a f()cking animal...period. He was one of the best fighters MMA has ever seen, a legend without question. Anyone who thinks differently simply doesn't follow history. STFU.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Calminian said:


> Hmm. I actually didn't see any of those. Chuck got old. Cop is still young. That's the difference. Plus, Cop lost to every good fighter he faced. Chuck beat em.
> 
> Sorry, analogy fails.


Let's see, Barnett is a great fighter, Mirko beat him thrice (Though, to be fair, their first fight reeked of dive). Igor Vovy was a great fighter and Mirko kicked his head off (Igor's head is, in fact, in Spain as we speak). 

Aleks is good.
Herring is good.
Fujita was good.

Mirko's been kicking ass in K-1 long before going into MMA. Dude is old in MMA years.

Also Chuck, while good, was never as good as Mirko. Let's see Mirko fight the best in K-1. Mirko was better. Point blank. Period.


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## shatterproof (Jul 16, 2008)

Calminian said:


> Cop lost to every good fighter he faced.


hah. This sums up the quality of this thread nicely, should have been locked right there for others to judge from.

These are some of the guys whom Mirko beat in their absolute PRIME...

Mark Hunt, Remmy Bonjasky, Peter Aerts, Jerome Lebanner, Bob Sapp (when he was undefeated and had just beat Ernesto Hoost TWICE), Sakuraba, Heath Herring, Igor Vovchanchyn, Aleksander Emelianenko, Josh Barnett, Wanderlei Silva ... the list goes on.

:sarcastic12: you said something about 'fail'?


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

shatterproof said:


> hah. This sums up the quality of this thread nicely, should have been locked right there for others to judge from.
> 
> These are some of the guys whom Mirko beat in their absolute PRIME...
> 
> ...


I like how this post makes sense, it's neat.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

shatterproof said:


> hah. This sums up the quality of this thread nicely, should have been locked right there for others to judge from.
> 
> These are some of the guys whom Mirko beat in their absolute PRIME...
> 
> ...


In the words of the great Damone, who in the hell gave you permission to talk sense in this thread??


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

HexRei said:


> dos santos is also a BJJ purple belt and he fought crocop in MMA, crocop has a terrible ground game and you can't judge striking in MMA against striking in kickboxing. They are not the same, takedowns completely change the nature of standup imho. Crocop got beat on the feet but I bet he would have been more aggressive in a kickboxing rules only fight.


Terrible? The guy has only been submitted once in his whole career and to one of the best BJJ HWs in all of MMA in Nog. His TDD was always looked up to. Sure he never went to the ground on purpose but why would he, but to say his ground game was terrible is not right at all. He just avoided the ground cause he could finish fights so good on the feet but he wasnt a Melvin Guillard by any means.



Calminian said:


> Hey Rampage is tough. No doubt about that. But Chuck's decline was very quick. That's how age works. Chuck's best years were in the UFC prior to the Rampage fight. The Jardine fight is a great example. Couture is also old and declining fast. The same guy that once out struck Chuck got out struck by a slow Nog. Both are real examples of getting old. For Crocop, it's just not true. The guy is still young and shouldn't be declining yet.
> 
> Come on guys. Crocop was good, but let's not get crazy and compare him to Chuck. A Couture comparison would be more rational.


Still young? Age wise he may be younger than chuck but he has a lot more fights than him. The guy has been in combat sports since he was very very young. His decline might not be from old age but more lost passion. To say he isnt declining because chuck declined at an older age is just retarded. Its obvious in his fights he is not half the fighter he once was.


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## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

steveo412 said:


> Still young? Age wise he may be younger than chuck but he has a lot more fights than him. The guy has been in combat sports since he was very very young. His decline might not be from old age but more lost passion. To say he isnt declining because chuck declined at an older age is just retarded. Its obvious in his fights he is not half the fighter he once was.


I agree with this assessment. Cro Cop isn't very old in years, but holy shit does his body have a lot of miles on it. Years of football, anti terrorism training, 45 amateur kickboxing fights, 23 professional fights, 35 MMA fights. Thats a lot for the human body to endure. Retirement is definitely his best option and his past few years will never take away the murderous highlights hes given us.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

steveo412 said:


> Terrible? The guy has only been submitted once in his whole career and to one of the best BJJ HWs in all of MMA in Nog. His TDD was always looked up to. Sure he never went to the ground on purpose but why would he, but to say his ground game was terrible is not right at all. He just avoided the ground cause he could finish fights so good on the feet but he wasnt a Melvin Guillard by any means.


alistair overeem is far from a ground expert and he made crocop look lost on the ground. and that was pretty recently.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

HexRei said:


> alistair overeem is far from a ground expert and he made crocop look lost on the ground. and that was pretty recently.


He is not and idiot on the ground either. Plus I don't remember him submitting Cro Cop.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

HexRei said:


> alistair overeem is far from a ground expert and he made crocop look lost on the ground. and that was pretty recently.


Yet, Mirko schooled Barnett on the ground in their second fight.

I give Mirko props for staying active after being old in MMA years. Dude doesn't even need to fight, he just does. He loves it.


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## name goes here (Aug 15, 2007)

I didn't mean to say CC was better than Chuck, I'm not saying the reverse either, I'm saying they were both good, and 90% of posters were on there nuts, and then when their career ends, suddenly all these people start saying they always hated them and they were always bad (if you didn't see the threads, you are a tard). Same with Nog when he looked bad v Mir... Tim Sylvia when he lost to Fed... etc etc


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## Admz (Sep 15, 2009)

Cro Cop has tremendous heart for staying in the game for so long, through his many fights in K1 and Pride. Too bad his UFC career didn't take off like most imagined but you gotta give him a thumbs up for trying. :thumbsup:

As long as he doesn't join Dancing with the Stars or do a cameo on the A-Team movie, Mirko will always have my respect. raise01:

Saying he was 'never really that good' is just.. trollish.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Its funny how your only as good as your last fight. Really sad to see a legend in the sport be talked down upon like this even in one of the better mma forums.

:thumbsdown:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

name goes here said:


> I didn't mean to say CC was better than Chuck, I'm not saying the reverse either, I'm saying they were both good, and 90% of posters were on there nuts, and then when their career ends, suddenly all these people start saying they always hated them and they were always bad (if you didn't see the threads, you are a tard). Same with Nog when he looked bad v Mir... Tim Sylvia when he lost to Fed... etc etc


I agree with everything else but everyone hated Timmy for a long ass time.


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## name goes here (Aug 15, 2007)

Lol True about Timmah


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

shatterproof said:


> anyone who thinks Mirko doesn't deserve the many accolades he has earned over his career have quite obviously not been watching him through the years. Plain and simple. He was a beast in K1 where he beat Aerts, Bonjasky, Hunt and others and clearly dominated the majority of Pride's HWs in impressive fashion. Heck, he may well have been a K1 GP champ (having beat Bonjasky and Aerts) if not for coming up against Mr Perfect, Ernesto Hoost, twice.
> 
> Breen is a tool. Revisionist combat sports record keeping = dicktarded.
> 
> ...





Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Breen obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. Cro Cops K1 record speaks for itself. Plus he hung in there with Fedor and Wanderlei in his prime. How many people can say that?





joshua7789 said:


> I would still bet on crocop against most people if they were fighting in a ring. The dude is a pure kickboxer who can do a lot of damage when he has the space to operate in. Crocop was great, just not much for fighting in a cage.
> 
> Also, didnt he knock Remy out? That is pretty damn impressive, i think only one other guy has ever been able to do that.





Freelancer said:


> No Comment.
> 
> EDIT: In fact I have a comment!
> 
> Everybody is overrated once they start losing.





Guy said:


> That's flawed logic. Consider this: Alexander Karelin was the most feared Olympic wrestler of all time. He terrorized his opponents to the point that they laid down for him to pin them. He also went around 7 or 8 years without even giving up a point.
> 
> Gardner beat him in the 2000 Olympics though because of a rule change regarding the clinch. Does that mean he was never great to begin with? Does that mean during all that time he was "overrated" and faced "weak opposition"? That's what kind of crap people are giving Crocop. The guy was great and he was in the top 5 3 years ago, but his body cannot handle the exhaustion anymore. Watch his earlier fights and notice the speed, power, timing, and accuracy Crocop possessed compared to now.





ufcrules said:


> That is BS. How can someone disregard Cro Cop's resume and hilite reel which Rogan said on Saturday is the best in history, and I happen to agree. That dude is a wanker.





Soakked said:


> I was never a CC fan I must admit, and during the Pride days I thought he was a bit overrated(only slighty though) due to the nuthuggery that was infecting fools. That being said, the revisionist mentally that he was never good, or medicore is laughable. Give the man his due, and don't compare his current state to his prime state. To say that a prime CC could not hang with the current HW division is a joke. Of course he could, and would be a top 5er on top of that. I think Dos Santos is overrated, but he's the current nut ride offering willing fans a discount.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





evilappendix said:


> To say Crocop's resume is unimpressive is just plain obtuse. :confused02:





VolcomX311 said:


> The HW division in PRIDE once contained Fedor, Mirco, Big Nog, (young) Mark Coleman, (young & hungry) Mark Kerr, Igor Vovchanchyn, Josh Barnett, Aleks, Randleman.... relatively in the same generation.
> 
> The HW class in the "UFC" has been historically weak, (philosophically, it still is), but the HW class in that generation of PRIDE fighters was arguably one of the deepest divisions in all of MMA history. You could argue that the top 5 MMA'ists in the world (at that time), were all in that same division; Fedor, Mirco, Big Nog, Barnett and Kerr.
> 
> ...





swedish_fighter said:


> It always gets like this to those who keeps fighting "just a bit longer" and doing comebacks. Brock, or if you prefer Fedor will eventually lose too if they keep fighting.
> 
> Eventually you get old. =/ And you will have all those people who trash you and say how much better the new guys are since they beat you. I personally think its unfair to call him a bad fighter from this one time performance.
> 
> ...





vandalian said:


> Remember how Chuck became overrated as soon as Rampage took his belt?





Michael Carson said:


> Ahh, another thread trying to pull down another legend of the sport because they are not what they once were.
> 
> You know, it's really funny, people look at records, not ACTUAL FIGHTS. How about the people that think Cro Cop was not that good, go back and watch his fights? If you can't see the difference, then you have no idea, NO IDEA at all about striking or how to tell how good a fighter is based off their skill, not their resume.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I don't need to add anything further to this thread.


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