# Dan Henderson vs. Lyoto Machida reportedly in the works



## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/9/14/3333370/ufc-targeting-machida-vs-henderson-top-contenders-battle


Sounds pretty freakin' epic.

My money's firmly in Lyoto's corner.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Hendo's got this.

Lyoto is elusive and great at distance, but his chin isn't anywhere near as stable as the monster chin of Shogun who out "elusived" Machida in the first fight and knocked him out in the second, and the only reason Shogun survived the first two rounds with Hendo is because of that chin, Hendo hurt him, and bad. Machida doesn't have the power to hurt Hendo, who has one of the best chins of all time.

I see this fight going the same except probably Machida can hold off on the defeat a little longer because of his style.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

I'm hoping for a double knock out.


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

Hendo's right hand is like a ******* missile man. Brutal power and he's accurate with it.

At some point I see him landing that monstrous right hand and putting Lyoto out cold and stiff.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

I think Lyoto will dominate.


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## Canadian Psycho (Apr 22, 2007)

Great fight. Will be rooting for Henderson.


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## TheNinja (Dec 10, 2008)

This will be a good fight...It only takes 1 from Hendo...But Machida is sooo hard to hit...


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Is this going to be a 3 round fight or a 5 round fight???


I think Hendos got this also. Machida isnt going to do much damage to Hendo and all Hendo has to do is land 1 punch. And he seems to always find a way to land it. But i dont think im willing to put credits on it unless the odds are really favorable towards Machida.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

New Thread:- The Direction of the UFC...Awesomesville...or something...

Anyways, Machida by KO.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Anyways, Machida by KO.


Not by cracking him on the chin, but one of his flying knees to the stomach could do it.

Love the fight, will root for Hendo, but who knows in a fight with Machida.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Seems like they would have Rashad in the mix someplace, this is a good fight though.

Ill take Machida by ud.


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## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

Excellent match up all things considered. The grappling evens out, Hendo has power and durability, Machida as accuracy and elusiveness.

Machida on points.


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## evilappendix (Jan 4, 2007)

Machida will sub Henderson. Dan's biggest issue is the same one every wrastler of American breeding seems to struggle with. No defense off his back and almost no idea what a submission even is.. I love me some Hendo, but he doesn't do well when opponents don't oblige him by keeping it standing, giving him his one shot at ending the fight. Not to mention, Lyoto doesn't circle into his opponent's power hand or square up to them when striking. Of course, I didn't think he'd decapitate Wanderlei in their second fight either so what do I know? :confused02: War both guys!


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

Great fight, Machida should outpoint Hendo all night with kicks, trip him if they tie up and from there I think he can get position quickly and submit the old dinosaur...

But Lyoto cannot brawl with Dan. If he can't dictate the fight with kicks and Dan's hands start to get through, Machida needs to get it to the ground where he'll undoubtedly dominate.

I hope this fight happens, two very dangerous fighters with very different qualities. Lyoto won't make Shogun's mistake, Rua faced Hendo determined to win with his hands. Made for a crazy fight but Shogun could have dominated with the right strategy. Lyoto will use all of his skills.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

evilappendix said:


> Machida will sub Henderson. Dan's biggest issue is the same one every wrastler of American breeding seems to struggle with. No defense off his back and almost no idea what a submission even is.. I love me some Hendo, but he doesn't do well when opponents don't oblige him by keeping it standing, giving him his one shot at ending the fight. Not to mention, Lyoto doesn't circle into his opponent's power hand or square up to them when striking. Of course, I didn't think he'd decapitate Wanderlei in their second fight either so what do I know? :confused02: War both guys!


I dont exactly see Lyoto going for the takedown though lol


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Machida is not going to be able to sub hendo straight up, he'd have to hurt/daze/stun him first. 

Even then I think the odds are extremely slim he jumps on a sub. He would probably just keep striking to finish.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

slapshot said:


> Machida is not going to be able to sub hendo straight up, he'd have to hurt/daze/stun him first.
> 
> Even then I think the odds are extremely slim he jumps on a sub. He would probably just keep striking to finish.


This. Machida might have some subs in there, but he's a karate fighter first and foremost. He lost to Shogun, okay, that was bad, but everyone seems to forget that he was undefeated, all striking, before that. I think he keeps his distance from Hendo and at some point lands the big one, finishing it by TKO or MAYBE the rear naked or something.


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## rul3z (Jun 27, 2010)

M.C said:


> Hendo's got this.
> 
> Lyoto is elusive and great at distance, but his chin isn't anywhere near as stable as the monster chin of Shogun who out "elusived" Machida in the first fight and knocked him out in the second, and the only reason Shogun survived the first two rounds with Hendo is because of that chin, Hendo hurt him, and bad. Machida doesn't have the power to hurt Hendo, who has one of the best chins of all time.


That's IF, and I say "IF" Hendo manages to come close to Lyoto 

This will end the same way as Mr. Expendables "Randy"


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

Great fight on the card.
Machida wins via any way he wants, except KO due to to chin hits!!!! :thumb02:


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

Killz said:


> I'm hoping for a double knock out.


...LOL! Ha! That would be hilarious. Hendo lands his H-bomb and Lyoto lands a hard straight left- both hitting each others buttons and the lights go out in Georgia! Back to Reality- My take- Machida at all costs needs to avoid getting greco clinched up against the cage. Dan's base is wicked strong, he can drag Lyoto to the ground, take over and drop nasty bombs from the top. Lyoto can catch Dan's granite chin and bowling ball head, maybe rock Dan but not knock him out. Hendo certainly has the chin and power factor. If Dan doesn't catch Lyoto with a big shot and it stays on the feet, it could go to a decision...


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

slapshot said:


> Machida is not going to be able to sub hendo straight up, he'd have to hurt/daze/stun him first.
> 
> Even then I think the odds are extremely slim he jumps on a sub. *He would probably just keep striking to finish.*


And fail like everyone else who has tried that has.

I don't see where people get the idea that Machida is better on the ground than Hendo. He certainly has not shown this amazing ground game in any fight of his I have seen and I've seen every one of his UFC fights. He only has 2 submissions to his name. One against a kickboxer in his first (of 2) mma fights and the second a poor arm triangle over completely gassed (and hugely overrated at the time) Sokoudjo. No BJJ accomplishments to his name. Nothing.

So why does everybody think he wins if this goes to the ground? Do you guys really think he is a more dangerous grappler than Palhares who Hendo outgrappled?


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Not as thrilled with the matchup as everyone else is. I'm a Hendo fan and I like Machida. But could see this going down like Rampage/Machida. If Machida is afraid of Hendo's bomb then he could turn it into a very boring fight with Hendo stalking him in cirlces.

Hope that isn't the case.

On paper Machida should win. But Hendo's right always seem to find its mark.


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## killua (Mar 4, 2012)

Don't think it'll be a boring fight thanks to Hendo. I hope Machida prepares well for this and gets another impressive win. I think he should take it, but I can easily see it ending up like the Shogun fights.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

It's weird, I'm not really sold on a Jones vs. Machida rematch so in that respect I want Hendo to win this.

On the other side I like Machida more than I do Hendo so I also want him to win.

Guess I won't be too disappointed either way 

BTW this pic is legendary!


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

Budhisten said:


> It's weird, I'm not really sold on a Jones vs. Machida rematch so in that respect I want Hendo to win this.
> 
> On the other side I like Machida more than I do Hendo so I also want him to win.
> 
> ...


...I like both dudes as well. They both can finish each other. Dan with a bigger advantage with his iron chin. Should be an interesting fight. Nice All-Star line-up. Between just the 5 of them they have accumulated 136 MMA wins including belts galore...


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

I hope not. That's two of my favorite fighters right there. I'd have no idea who to root for.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Machida has shown weakness to overhand rights. It is the counter everyone plans for when they are fighting Machida. And no one does a better job of landing the overhand.

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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Dan lost me as a fan, he's been a cheater for years. Just look at team quest its a bunch of dopers.

Here's hoping machida retires his overrated ass. Then again if he doesn't Jones will so w/e.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

rul3z said:


> That's IF, and I say "IF" Hendo manages to come close to Lyoto
> 
> This will end the same way as Mr. Expendables "Randy"


Machida got out outmaneuvered by Shogun in both fights, couldn't do enough with his speed/range to beat Jackson, and although he looked impressive against Bader, it's Bader, he's slow and dumb, Tito beat Bader.

Now, my point isn't to say that Machida isn't a great fighter 'cause he is, but he's not fast/elusive enough to keep Hendo off him, Hendo will send Lyoto's consciousness to the void after a round or two.

Also, Hendo is no randy when it comes to chin, his chin is as much rock today as it was some years ago, Machida doesn't have the power to do anything like that to him.

With all that said, I'm HOPING for a really good, long fight, I like it when a fight gets into the 3-4 area and then a finish, it gives enough fight to be fun, but also a finish to top it off.


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## OHKO (Jul 11, 2010)

Dang, I don't want either to lose. No idea who to root for.


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## dlxrevolution (Jul 16, 2009)

I like Machida, but I'd probably root for Dan Henderson seeing as if he loses this fight, he probably won't be fighting long enough to build his way back up to a title shot. I have half a mind to think that if this goes to decision, the judges are going to give this to Dan no matter how the fight goes.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

I love this fight, am dying to see it happen...but dont want it to happen haha. I want Hendo to automatically get the next title shot. He earned it and a loss at this point kicks him down the ranks. Machida on the other hand has a potential run at MW ahead of him so the loss wouldnt be TOO costly, but hes one of my all time favourites, probably #3, so I could never root against him. Tough call, but amazing fight.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

If it wasn't for the fact that Lyoto usually circles left and the fact that Hendo has a titanium chin I'd say it's a sure win. Still fairly confident Lyoto takes it. This is the fight that will propel Lyoto to the title shot without any complaints. I agree it was premature to get a title fight even after a convincing win against Bader. 

Another point to make is that Hendo is extremely slow and tires as the rounds progress. It'll be a very interesting fight because I don't think Machida can TKO Dan. It's those lightening fast bursts which Hendo will be waiting for an exchange that worries me. Still can't believe Hendo exchanged with Fedor. 

We've seen Machida get clipped hard twice now, both times while he's swinging. So anything could happen. 

Huge main event card!


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Machida seemed more diciplined Vs Bader. When he faught Jones he was using the karate rush techniques which eventually saw his downfall. Going in against Bader, he seemed to stay away from this, make sure he sat completley on the defencive outside and was quick to pounce on every counter he could. Hendo is like Bader on steroids (or TRT if you want to call it that ). Hendo will at first try and stay at his own range, maybe trying to entice Machida in. Hendo will tire of this though and will push forward, trying to catch Machida against the cage and land the big shots. I think Lyoto will be able to use his footwork to get out of the position, but he might inadvertantly circle into the H-Bomb to get off of the cage so he will need to watch out for that. I think Hendo will get slightly desperate as the fight progresses with Machida winning some boring early rounds. Machida will then be catching him hard as he comes in and I see maybe a last round TKO stoppage.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Machida seemed more diciplined Vs Bader. When he faught Jones he was using the karate rush techniques which eventually saw his downfall. Going in against Bader, he seemed to stay away from this, make sure he sat completley on the defencive outside and was quick to pounce on every counter he could. Hendo is like Bader on steroids (or TRT if you want to call it that ). Hendo will at first try and stay at his own range, maybe trying to entice Machida in. Hendo will tire of this though and will push forward, trying to catch Machida against the cage and land the big shots. I think Lyoto will be able to use his footwork to get out of the position, but he might inadvertantly circle into the H-Bomb to get off of the cage so he will need to watch out for that. I think Hendo will get slightly desperate as the fight progresses with Machida winning some boring early rounds. Machida will then be catching him hard as he comes in and I see maybe a last round TKO stoppage.


Good assessment. Lyoto is a lot more careful and leaner too. He's utilizing his speed more than ever. Going back to his roots.


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## mo25 (Feb 7, 2011)

I'd rather hendo fight jj and if dan loses then machida get his shot. this way we'll get to see both men fight jj.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

mo25 said:


> I'd rather hendo fight jj and if dan loses then machida get his shot. this way we'll get to see both men fight jj.


Me too, but thats only because I'm a fan of both. This fight would still be great and make perfect sense.

My ideal situation would be:-

Hendo Vs Jones (if Jones beats Belfort)
Machida Vs Rampage (avenge the loss)

Gus Vs Jones (If Gus beats Shogun)
Machida Vs Shogun

Machida Vs Jones


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

He may very well have a granite chin....

But I'd wager he doesn't have iron ribs, and that's where Machida will get him, the quicker, more elusive fighter working over Dan's mid-section with kicks, until finally delivering the death blow, the running knee to the body.

From there, Dan will be helpless, clutching onto his ribs for dear life as he lays on the ground, and the Dragon will join his Blackhouse teammates as the only men to finish Hendo, the question is, will it be TKO or Sub.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Machida can punch anyone coming in and Hendo could take anyones punch going in. I love this fight and hope Hendo takes the victory here.


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## tight (Aug 26, 2007)

Would love to see this fight, but as others have stated, 'ideally' after Machida and Hendo have both had their shot at Jones. But you can't have everything I guess


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Machida is a Karate Man who extensively trains BJJ with BJJ monsters, but he's still the Karate Man. Not having many subs or BJJ technique display is not an argument to demerit his grapling abilities. I believe he is smarter than Palhares and his sumo base is very strong. 

If he can avoid getting caught by Hendo's H bomb, he should (I never say will or won't) win this.

Like Machida, his team mate Anderson Silva is originally a striker who got specialized in BJJ later on. Yet he finished Hendo with his BJJ, so why could't Lyoto do the same being himself a black belt?


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

I think Henderson can bomb Lyotos chin before the 2nd round. It will take one punch and Hendo has shown he can land it. Grappling-wise I see it pretty even.

The key for Machida is to hurt Hendos body because 1. Hendo's moai statue head can not be hurt and 2. he has pretty weak cardio, and this would make him gas even quicker.

If he can avoid the overhand and hurt Hendos body with knees, then I see Machida dominating after round 1.

For some reason I just see Hendo landing a bomb in round one and Machida making the Rashad-face.


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> Machida is a Karate Man who extensively trains BJJ with BJJ monsters, but he's still the Karate Man. Not having many subs or BJJ technique display is not an argument to demerit his grapling abilities. I believe he is smarter than Palhares and his sumo base is very strong.
> 
> If he can avoid getting caught by Hendo's H bomb, he should (I never say will or won't) win this.
> 
> ...


Because elite level BJJ fighters don't get caught in standing guillotine chokes. And elite level BJJ players don't almost get submitted by Tito Ortiz.

Anderson Silva wouldn't get caught in a standing guillotine choke.

Machida hasn't demonstrated exceptional submission skills throughout his entire career, regardless of who he trains with. Anderson has, and has submitted some good grapplers, therefore I'm not understanding your comparison.

It's highly unlikely that Machida will sub Dan Henderson.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

GrappleRetarded said:


> Because elite level BJJ fighters don't get caught in standing guillotine chokes. And elite level BJJ players don't almost get submitted by Tito Ortiz.
> 
> Anderson Silva wouldn't get caught in a standing guillotine choke.
> 
> ...


You're aware Jones rocked him before he choked him out aren't you?


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

TheLyotoLegion said:


> You're aware Jones rocked him before he choked him out aren't you?


I'm aware. Not excusable as far as I'm concerned, standing guillotines are just too rare in this sport.

His BJJ really just isn't that good. Good job he has good TDD then.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

GrappleRetarded said:


> Because elite level BJJ fighters don't get caught in standing guillotine chokes. And elite level BJJ players don't almost get submitted by Tito Ortiz.
> 
> Anderson Silva wouldn't get caught in a standing guillotine choke.
> 
> ...


I was bringing up Machida is not blind on the ground as ppl were suggesting Hendo would be better on the ground. I just don't know. However, BJJ elite fighters can be caught anytime in any lock as elite strikers can be KO anytime by any well put blow. 



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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> I was bringing up Machida is not blind on the ground as ppl were suggesting Hendo would be better on the ground. I just don't know. However, BJJ elite fighters can be caught anytime in any lock as elite strikers can be KO anytime by any well put blow.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using VS Free


No one said he was blind on the ground though, of course he isn't. He's competent on the ground, but it's by far the weakest aspect of his game, and his ground game isn't comparable to Anderson Silva's.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

I think Machida would be able to knock Hendo out with punches to the face tbh.


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> I think Machida would be able to knock Hendo out with punches to the face tbh.


There's really nothing to support this argument.

Henderson has faced harder hitting strikers than Machida and better technical strikers than Machida. None of them were able to put Hendo away with strikes.

Any thing can happen in this sport, but taking every thing into consideration, it's extremely unlikely that Lyoto would be the first man stop stop Henderson with strikes.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

GrappleRetarded said:


> There's really nothing to support this argument.
> 
> Henderson has faced harder hitting strikers than Machida and better technical strikers than Machida. None of them were able to put Hendo away with strikes.
> 
> Any thing can happen in this sport, but taking every thing into consideration, it's extremely unlikely that Lyoto would be the first man stop stop Henderson with strikes.


I think it's really the counter punching. Hendo is the kind of guy that if you exchange punches with him and he's expecting it, he can take literally any amount of damage. But if he's stepping in and going to the H-Bomb and gets caught open, I can see him getting dropped.


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

Dan is getting Ko'd. People like to pretend his chin is still made of steel, but he is a 42 year old man who has gotten badly rocked in each of his last 3 fights. The huge difference in hand speed and Dan's complete dependence on his right hand aren't helping the matter.


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## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> I think it's really the counter punching. Hendo is the kind of guy that if you exchange punches with him and he's expecting it, he can take literally any amount of damage. But if he's stepping in and going to the H-Bomb and gets caught open, I can see him getting dropped.


This. And Lyoto's exactly the kind of fighter who will look for the counter opening or angled strike. He's also the kind of fighter with the distancing, timing and movement to 'defuse' the h-bomb effectively. Unless has some new tricks I don't see him setting up his signature strike to hand.

Lyoto will probably take southpaw stance guaranteeing him acres of space between Hendo and his right hand. If anybody knows how to pedal and CIRCLE RIGHT its Lyoto. 

The thing is, Henderson is always dangerous, if Machida hurts him and is too aggressive in the follow up, Hendo can catch him.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Iuanes said:


> This. And Lyoto's exactly the kind of fighter who will look for the counter opening or angled strike. He's also the kind of fighter with the distancing, timing and movement to 'defuse' the h-bomb effectively. Unless has some new tricks I don't see him setting up his signature strike to hand.
> 
> Lyoto will probably take southpaw stance guaranteeing him acres of space between Hendo and his right hand. If anybody knows how to pedal and CIRCLE RIGHT its Lyoto.
> 
> The thing is, Henderson is always dangerous, if Machida hurts him and is too aggressive in the follow up, Hendo can catch him.


Hendo is pretty much a super Bader. He has heavy hands, pushes forward, and things get too close theres a chance he's going to look for a slam. After the Jones loss, Machida switched a lot up and went very diciplined in the Bader fight. Thats his best style and how he loves to fight. I'm not sure if he pushes forward once against Bader, and I think the same will happen with Hendo. The only question is how good is Machida's footwork going to be. Usually it's flawless, but he can make a mistake against Evans or Bader. Against Hendo, that mistake puts you out, so Machida needs to keep off the cage, circle away from the hand and keep fighting at his own range.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

St.Paul Guy said:


> Dan is getting Ko'd. People like to pretend his chin is still made of steel, but he is a 42 year old man who has gotten badly rocked in each of his last 3 fights. The huge difference in hand speed and Dan's complete dependence on his right hand aren't helping the matter.


Feijao, Fedor and Shogun, guy's who are known for their stand up skills, Hendo took their best shots and ate them. I'd think that it's a sign of a steel chin.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Rauno said:


> Feijao, Fedor and Shogun, guy's who are known for their stand up skills, Hendo took their best shots and ate them. I'd think that it's a sign of a steel chin.


Yeah I was thinking that aswell. Hendo's chin is so good it's pretty much underrated haha


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

Rauno said:


> Feijao, Fedor and Shogun, guy's who are known for their stand up skills, Hendo took their best shots and ate them. I'd think that it's a sign of a steel chin.


True but taking shots like those aren't good for the chin, take into account he's taken bombs from prime Rampage and prime Wanderlei and his chin has many, many miles on it.

I don't think Machida can KO him with punches but I do think Machida could stop him with kicks and knees to the body.


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> I think it's really the counter punching. Hendo is the kind of guy that if you exchange punches with him and he's expecting it, he can take literally any amount of damage. *But if he's stepping in and going to the H-Bomb and gets caught open, I can see him getting dropped*.


That's exactly how he got caught by the likes of Fedor and Anderson Silva. Still, their striking wasn't enough to put him down for good.

Anderson is the best counter striker, the best over all striker in the game by a mile and although he finished Hendo and had him rocked, he couldn't finish him with strikes, and that's saying a hell of a lot.

It's also worth nothing that Anderson landed a flush front kick ala vitor beflort on Dans chin and he didn't even react to it.










Machida is a great counter striker, but he simply doesn't have the power to put Henderson away with strikes.

As for who wins the fight, I have the odds at dead on 50/50. It really could go either way.


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

Rauno said:


> Feijao, Fedor and Shogun, guy's who are known for their stand up skills, Hendo took their best shots and ate them. I'd think that it's a sign of a steel chin.


He deals with getting rocked as well as anybody, but he gets rocked all the time nowadays. Shogun was completely gassed and knocked him to the brink of unconsciousness. If Machida hits Dan with the same shot he hit Bader with, Dan is waking up with a flashlight in his face. 

He only has a slightly better chance of beating Machida than Couture did IMO.


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

St.Paul Guy said:


> He deals with getting rocked as well as anybody, but he gets rocked all the time nowadays. Shogun was completely gassed and knocked him to the brink of unconsciousness. If Machida hits Dan with the same shot he hit Bader with, Dan is waking up with a flashlight in his face.
> 
> He only has a slightly better chance of beating Machida than Couture did IMO.


Shogun Rua hits much, much harder than Lyoto Machida though, gassed or not, he packs a tonne of power.

Machida lands a sweet KO on Bader and people are obviously still high off the win and think that he's a knock out machine, he really isn't. People are quick to forget that Tito Ortiz dropped Ryan Bader. An over the hill Tito Ortiz, of all people.

And comparing Hendo to Couture's later days? Judging the two fighters from an objective stand point, it's clear that Henderson is a much, much better fighter than Couture was at the time of his Machida fight.

He has a much, much better chance at beating Machida than Randy did, due to him being a much better fighter than Randy was back then.


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## Alessia (Sep 1, 2011)

St.Paul Guy said:


> Shogun was completely gassed and knocked him to the brink of unconsciousness. .


I remember seeing a video with Chael commentating or something where it showed that shot. Dan went limp standing. 

No idea how he managed to recover from that so fast. Mans a warrior and that's why he is one of my favorite fighters of all time.

As for this match I don't want to see either lose, so I want a draw. xD


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## fightfan76 (Sep 29, 2011)

M.C said:


> Hendo's got this.
> 
> Lyoto is elusive and great at distance, but his chin isn't anywhere near as stable as the monster chin of Shogun who out *"elusived"* Machida in the first fight and knocked him out in the second, and the only reason Shogun survived the first two rounds with Hendo is because of that chin, Hendo hurt him, and bad. Machida doesn't have the power to hurt Hendo, who has one of the best chins of all time.
> 
> I see this fight going the same except probably Machida can hold off on the defeat a little longer because of his style.


I dont understand what Shogun out "elusive-ing" anybody has to do w/ Hendo. Simply put, Hendo is not as elusive as Shogun nor Machida and Machida will not mix it up w/ Hendo as as Shogun did. He will stick and move constantly making it very difficult for Hendo to a land a solid shot.....


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

GrappleRetarded said:


> Shogun Rua hits much, much harder than Lyoto Machida though, gassed or not, he packs a tonne of power.
> 
> Machida lands a sweet KO on Bader and people are obviously still high off the win and think that he's a knock out machine, he really isn't. People are quick to forget that Tito Ortiz dropped Ryan Bader. An over the hill Tito Ortiz, of all people.
> 
> ...


A fresh Machida can't hit as hard as a completely gassed Shogun? Please.

Dan is a better fighter than Couture was, but not by that much. He beat a shell of Fedor and the new terrible Shogun and people act like he is still at his best. 

He has excellent defensive wrestling, power to spare in his right hand, and the biggest cajones in the game, but he only has gas for 2 rounds, he is undersized, he is slow, he offers little offense other then his right hand, and he can't eat shots like he used to.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

I have absolute confidence that this fight will be long winded one sided beat down of an old toothless fecker. He's going to wish his chin was weaker because 15 solid minutes of Lyoto blows upon his head is gonna hurt a lot.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

GrappleRetarded said:


> No one said he was blind on the ground though, of course he isn't. He's competent on the ground, but it's by far the weakest aspect of his game, and his ground game isn't comparable to Anderson Silva's.


I agree it's his weakest, as I enphasized his a Karate Man and added BJJ to his game later on.

Impossible to compare both AS and Lyoto's ground game since they will use it only when needed and not as a primary game plan. We never seen Lyoto displaying outstanding BJJ skill, but this goes around. Have we ever seen Lyoto being dominated on the ground?

He uses his Sumo to avoid being taken to the ground, his BJJ to get up fast, and his Karate to win fights.


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## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

St.Paul Guy said:


> Dan is getting Ko'd. People like to pretend his chin is still made of steel, but he is a 42 year old man who has gotten badly rocked in each of his last 3 fights. The huge difference in hand speed and Dan's complete dependence on his right hand aren't helping the matter.


And all three of them hit much harder than Lyoto does. Lyoto is not nearly devastating enough to put Hendo out. Prime Rampage couldn't do it, Anderson couldn't do it, Shogun couldn't do it. Why would Lyoto be able to do it? 

I see a second round KO for Hendo, closes in and lands one, but its all he needs.


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## VikingKing (Dec 3, 2011)

I LOVE this fight! This is going to be a epic fight. But i think The Dragon will take it..but its crazy how one dimentional hendo is.Everybody knows it..yet he knocks ppl out with his bomb.


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

Terror Kovenant said:


> And all three of them hit much harder than Lyoto does. Lyoto is not nearly devastating enough to put Hendo out. Prime Rampage couldn't do it, Anderson couldn't do it, Shogun couldn't do it. Why would Lyoto be able to do it?
> 
> I see a second round KO for Hendo, closes in and lands one, but its all he needs.


Dan is 42 now. His chin isn't good anymore.

Anderson could have finished him with strikes if he wanted to, and Shogun (the new bad version) would have if he wasn't completely exhausted.

And for the record, 4 of Machida's last 5 wins have been KOs. Not TKOs, but KOs. He is the only man to ever knockout Evans and Thiago Silva. 

Every fighter in the UFC can physically hit hard enough to knock any other fighter in their division. It's ludicrous to pretend like Dan has some magical force to allow his head to absorb Lyoto freakin' Machida's best shots.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Terror Kovenant said:


> And all three of them hit much harder than Lyoto does. Lyoto is not nearly devastating enough to put Hendo out. Prime Rampage couldn't do it, Anderson couldn't do it, Shogun couldn't do it. Why would Lyoto be able to do it?
> 
> I see a second round KO for Hendo, closes in and lands one, but its all he needs.


As I said though, Machida fights a lot different. We seen with Shogun, when Hendo is slugging it out he can take ANYTHING. But I think the difference will be when he's diving into something and gets caught off guard, which Machida does better than anybody.


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## fightfan76 (Sep 29, 2011)

St.Paul Guy said:


> Dan is 42 now.* His chin isn't good anymore.
> *
> Anderson could have finished him with strikes if he wanted to, and Shogun (the new bad version) would have if he wasn't completely exhausted.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I know b/c he has been KO-ed the last few times he has....wait, what?; How about we wait until he actually gets KO-ed b/4 we start saying he has no chin. I dont give a flying crap how many times he has been rocked the last few times he has fought, the fact remains that he has not ever been KO-ed. I personally believe Machida will win this fight either by decision or possibly TKO, meaning Hendo will be gassed and taking a large amount of shots w/o intelligently defending himself, I do not believe he will get knocked unconscious.....


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

I don't think he'd be "KOed", but I think he'd be dropped and finished with a small amount of GnP.

Is the fight official yet? I think a key point is if it's 3 rounds or 5. I'm assuming 5 because they like doing that now with main events, but if it's not a ME than it will probably only be 3.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> I don't think he'd be "KOed", but I think he'd be dropped and finished with a small amount of GnP.
> 
> Is the fight official yet? I think a key point is if it's 3 rounds or 5. I'm assuming 5 because they like doing that now with main events, but if it's not a ME than it will probably only be 3.


I think they said that it's going to be a 3 rounder, regardless if it's a main event or not. I think..


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

St.Paul Guy said:


> A fresh Machida can't hit as hard as a completely gassed Shogun? Please.
> 
> Dan is a better fighter than Couture was, but not by that much. He beat a shell of Fedor and the new terrible Shogun and people act like he is still at his best.
> 
> He has excellent defensive wrestling, power to spare in his right hand, and the biggest cajones in the game, but he only has gas for 2 rounds, he is undersized, he is slow, he offers little offense other then his right hand, and he can't eat shots like he used to.


Shogun clearly wasn't completely gassed out, seeing how he rallied back in the last two rounds and began to show new life. He was gassed, but even gassed, I'd argue that he still has more power than any version of Machida, yes. There isn't any shame in Dan Henderson getting rocked or ANY fighter getting rocked by Shogun Rua, gassed or not, Rua is a beast.

He's a much better fighter than Couture was when he fought Machida. He is the only man to KO Fedor, a HW, Dan, who has fought at MW multiple times. Regardless of Fedor's decline, being the only man to knock him out cold like that is incredibly impressive.

You're underestimating his striking a great deal. Dan has great all round boxing, a murderous right hand which he seems to have timed to perfection and is extremely accurate with it. It's not just a powerful right hand, but he has the timing, speed and accuracy to go with it, and he can cut off the cage very well (some thing Machida had lots of problems with against Rampage). His striking has been tried and tested against elite strikers - Shogun, Pride Wand and Fejaou. Fejaou is an incredibly under rated fighter btw.

Couture when he fought Machida had almost no KO power, he was incredibly slow and his wrestling was laughable compared to his earlier days. Hendo would brutalise Couture if they ever fought right now, the two are worlds apart in terms of ability at this point.



MMA-Sportsman said:


> I agree it's his weakest, as I enphasized his a Karate Man and added BJJ to his game later on.
> 
> Impossible to compare both AS and Lyoto's ground game since they will use it only when needed and not as a primary game plan. We never seen Lyoto displaying outstanding BJJ skill, but this goes around. Have we ever seen Lyoto being dominated on the ground?
> 
> ...


You were the one who made the comparison between Anderson and Machida's BJJ.

Lyoto was dominated in BJJ when he got caught in a standing guillotine choke two fights ago. It doesn't get more degrading than that. It also looked iffy against Tito Ortiz.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

GrappleRetarded said:


> Shogun clearly wasn't completely gassed out, seeing how he rallied back in the last two rounds and began to show new life. He was gassed, but even gassed, I'd argue that he still has more power than any version of Machida, yes. There isn't any shame in Dan Henderson getting rocked or ANY fighter getting rocked by Shogun Rua, gassed or not, Rua is a beast.
> 
> He's a much better fighter than Couture was when he fought Machida. He is the only man to KO Fedor, a HW, Dan, who has fought at MW multiple times. Regardless of Fedor's decline, being the only man to knock him out cold like that is incredibly impressive.
> 
> ...


I didin't compare. I said he could finish Hendo as Anderson did. That's all. 

He wasn't dominated by Jones. He was finished. Different thing. Same against Tito. He was caught, but got away. And that's MMA. In that same match he took Tito, the wrestler, down. 


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> I didin't compare. I said he could finish Hendo as Anderson did. That's all.
> 
> He wasn't dominated by Jones. He was finished. Different thing. Same against Tito. He was caught, but got away. And that's MMA. In that same match he took Tito, the wrestler, down.
> 
> ...


Jones victory over Machida ranks up there as one of his most dominant performances to date. He dominated Machida in that second round and choked him into unconsciousness with a standing guillotine choke. That's a dominant victory.

He took Ortiz down because he has a very strong wrestling base, I never questioned his wrestling ability, but his BJJ isn't quite top notch and just because his team mate subbed Hendo, doesn't mean he has the ability to do so.


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## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

I am obviously biased, but I see hendo pulling it off in either a very hard fought fight, or a massive KO in the early rounds. 

I am obviously concerned with Machida's ellisiveness and his great counter punches, but if hendo can press the action and cut the right off as he throws a huge O.H.R, I'll be jumping for joy.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

The notion that Machida can't knock Hendo out is ridiculous, of course he can. Hendo lands punches when guys box and brawl with him, which Lyoto won't do.

He'll likely do what Shogun should have, attack the legs and body and be the much fresher fighter by the third round. When Hendo gasses he gasses hard, Lyoto can definitely finish this fight.

Very interesting match up.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Hendos style might seem like a finish or be finished right now. Surely his not thinking himself that he can go 25 minutes with that pace he brings to the octagon. Both of them have the opportunity to finish the other guy.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

GrappleRetarded said:


> Jones victory over Machida ranks up there as one of his most dominant performances to date. He dominated Machida in that second round and choked him into unconsciousness with a standing guillotine choke. That's a dominant victory.


Dominant victory, indeed, not grappling/BJJ dominance. Example: Demian Maia vs Mario Miranda. That is like being dominated on the ground (Mario was the one dominated, of course)



GrappleRetarded said:


> He took Ortiz down because he has a very strong wrestling base, I never questioned his wrestling ability, but his BJJ isn't quite top notch and just because his team mate subbed Hendo, doesn't mean he has the ability to do so.


It does not mean otherwise as well.







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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> Dominant victory, indeed, not grappling/BJJ dominance. Example: Demian Maia vs Mario Miranda. That is like being dominated on the ground (Mario was the one dominated, of course)
> 
> 
> It does not mean otherwise as well.
> ...


Getting submitted with a standing guillotine choke is extremely dominant in my books. But by your books, "he just got caught". People don't just get caught in standing guillotines like that, it's such a rare submission to see in this sport. Jones dominated Machida in the BJJ aspect of that fight, and he proved that by choking him out.

He doesn't have the tools to submit Dan Henderson and he won't submit Dan Henderson.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Machida didn't get caught by any means. He was hurt by the time Jones sunk it in and there was nothing Machida could've done. Yeah he had a good 1st round but that doesn't matter much when you get brutalized and finished in the following round. Fact is, Jones finished Machida in 2 rounds and looked impressive doing so.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

GrappleRetarded said:


> Getting submitted with a standing guillotine choke is extremely dominant in my books. But by your books, "he just got caught". People don't just get caught in standing guillotines like that, it's such a rare submission to see in this sport. Jones dominated Machida in the BJJ aspect of that fight, and he proved that by choking him out.


We are clearly not speaking about the same thing. I gave you a good example already about what I mean (Demian vs Miranda). I will be even more clear. P Ex:Being toyed around for a good amount of time, unable to get up, unable to revert, to flip and no matter what you try you always end up in a worse position. That is being dominated on the ground. Something that makes evident your opponent has a superior grappling ability.

We never saw that happen to Lyoto yet. We never seen a good BJJ scramble in a MMA fight to have a veredict about this.

Being caught is a totally different thing, otherwise we should erase Big Nog credentials for the mistake he made against Mir. 

And btw, you said yourself: That standing guillotine was a rare submission.



GrappleRetarded said:


> He doesn't have the tools to submit Dan Henderson and he won't submit Dan Henderson.


Well, here you are saying Lyoto Machida, a very well regarded mixed martial artist, who used to be the LHW UFC Champion, a Top contender in UFC, a Black Belt in Karate, Judo and BJJ, does not have the TOOLS to submit Dan Henderson? But Anderson had, although Machida, no, no...not Machida. Can't figure where did you get this idea.

If he will or not, nobody knows. I don like to play the fortune teller, but he does not have the tools?

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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> We are clearly not speaking about the same thing. I gave you a good example already about what I mean (Demian vs Miranda). I will be even more clear. P Ex:Being toyed around for a good amount of time, unable to get up, unable to revert, to flip and no matter what you try you always end up in a worse position. That is being dominated on the ground. Something that makes evident your opponent has a superior grappling ability.
> 
> We never saw that happen to Lyoto yet. We never seen a good BJJ scramble in a MMA fight to have a veredict about this.
> 
> ...


Your interpretation of a dominant victory seems to be based on pure control, hence your Maia reference. Using that same logic, GSP is arguably more dominant than Anderson Silva because he completely controls and nullifies his opponents offense for five rounds each and every fight. I disagree. I see Anderson Silva as the more dominant champion because the vast majority of the time he goes out there and finishes guys in spectacular fashion.

Andersons KO on Vitor Belfort for example, I consider that an extremely dominant victory. He read Vitor for a while (an elite striker), exchanged a couple of times, figured him out and ended his night with a front kick KO. But by your logic, Vitor just got caught, just like you reference Big Nog in the Mir fight, "he just got caught" with a submission.

No. Mir and Nog rolled on the ground and Frank proved to be the much more dominant fighter in that area of the game because he ended up reversing a position, rolled Nog over several times and snapped his arm in half. That is dominance. If Mir had took Nog to the ground and controlled him for a while, but didn't get the submission, ala your Maia reference, you would perceive that as a more dominant victory, I disagree, I think Big Nog getting his arm ripped to shreds is more dominant in nature.

I don't care for belts, ranks and here-say from fighter camps, I care for results and evidence. And there is nothing from Machida's decorated career to suggest that he has the tools to submit Dan Henderson. Anderson Silva has submitted the likes of Travis Lutter and has demonstrated an elite submission game, Machida simply hasn't. 

There is nothing in Machidas arsenal to suggest that he would submit a guy like Dan Henderson, given that he has only been submitted by men who have proven to possess an elite ground game. Until I see some evidence of Machida showing a dangerous technical ground game, then it's hard for me to acknowledge that his BJJ is a threat to Hendersons game.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

I think Jones beat Machida but by no means dominant. He has some problems, worked through them, and sunk in an unexpected submission. A routine by the books win, and showed his ability to adapt. I consider his win over Shogun to be a showing of domination.


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## St.Paul Guy (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm tired of this. I'll bet credits.

I got "Machida inside the distance (1.00)" first person to accept gets "Not Machida inside the distance (1.00)"


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

St.Paul Guy said:


> I'm tired of this. I'll bet credits.
> 
> I got "Machida inside the distance (1.00)" first person to accept gets "Not Machida inside the distance (1.00)"


You're not predicting Machida to finish Henderson?

If so, then I'm out, I have the fight as a 50/50, I, am how ever, very confident that Lyoto won't finish Henderson.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

St.Paul Guy said:


> I'm tired of this. I'll bet credits.
> 
> I got "Machida inside the distance (1.00)" first person to accept gets "Not Machida inside the distance (1.00)"


http://www.mmaforum.com/member-bets/ :thumb02:

I like a friendly bet but i'm not going to take it. Someone really believeing in Hendo should participate (not that i don't believe in him, his getting that victory).


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

I'll bet Machida inside the distance...for...you know...my lots of credits.


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## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

GrappleRetarded said:


> I'd argue that he still has more power than any version of Machida, yes. There isn't any shame in Dan Henderson getting rocked or ANY fighter getting rocked by Shogun Rua, gassed or not, Rua is a beast.


I wouldn't say Rua has more punching in any circumstance over Machida. Machida can strike an opponent coming in which adds more to the total effect of his striking.



GrappleRetarded said:


> You're underestimating his striking a great deal. Dan has great all round boxing.His striking has been tried and tested against elite strikers - Shogun, Pride Wand and Fejaou. Fejaou is an incredibly under rated fighter btw.


Henderson doesn't really have great all round boxing, his striking is effective for MMA thus far. Boxing no.





GrappleRetarded said:


> Lyoto was dominated in BJJ when he got caught in a standing guillotine choke two fights ago. It doesn't get more degrading than that. It also looked iffy against Tito Ortiz.


Jones had Machida rocked before that choke via a very intelligent anticipation to Machida's counter. If you watch the gracie breakdown of that fight, you'll see that Jones has a unique advantage in standing guillotins, he can really add leverage into it. It was an impressive performance by Jones no doubt. I certainly wouldn't say Machida is a threat to sub though.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

GrappleRetarded said:


> Your interpretation of a dominant victory seems to be based on pure control, ...


Man, no matter how I try you keep drifting away from the initial point. I am not even referring to dominant victory. 

I say Machida has the tools to submit if needed. That's my point. 

He trains for that. If he will, I can't tell, but he has the tools. He did already, but preffers to strike. 

If you don't care about camps and black belts, that's because you are just a fan, 'cause most of the fighters seem to care about that a lot, as they pay good money and spend a great amount of time training in different areas. You just HAVE to pack all the tools nowadays, so they'll be used when needed. That's modern MMA. Who does not train in all areas is quickly called unidimensional, one trick pony...

Anderson has, indeed, great grappling abilities, but he showed that against fighters who cornered him into that. Otherwise he preffers to strike.

There's no Black Belt to skip from a perfectlly locked up position. To state Mir has better Jiu Jitsu than Big Nog because he got in that perfect position is not accurate. Big Nog made a fatal mistake against a dangerous, efficient, killer grappler and payed the price. Tht's MMA. I wouldn't put my money on Mir if it was a pure BJJ contest, although he sure could have a win there too.



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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

Iuanes said:


> I wouldn't say Rua has more punching in any circumstance over Machida. Machida can strike an opponent coming in which adds more to the total effect of his striking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rua has more power in his strikes than Machida and that's backed up by facts and statistics. Rua has 21 professional wins, with 18 of those being KO/TKO victories.

Machida has 18 wins and 7 KO/TKO stoppages. That's quite the difference.

Before Machida clobbered Rashad Evans, he was criticised for being a pillow handed fighter (ridiculous criticism either way). Machida does have power, but he's no where near the knock out artist that Shogun Rua is, and the facts illustrate that.

Hendersons striking in MMA mainly consists of boxing, so yea, his MMA boxing is very good. He has brutalised and beaten elite level strikers with his boxing alone. Wandy, Shogun, Fejaou, Vitor Belfort, I guess you could even label Michael Bisping as an upper echelon striker, and he destroyed him too.

Hendo's boxing is good. He's very accurate, has great timing, cuts off the cage effectively and packs a hell of a punch.





MMA-Sportsman said:


> Man, no matter how I try you keep drifting away from the initial point. I am not even referring to dominant victory.
> 
> I say Machida has the tools to submit if needed. That's my point.
> 
> ...


Where did I say I don't care about training camps? I said I don't care about here-say from training camps. Of course training camps are important, but to a degree. Just because Machida is trining with and is surrounded by high level BJJ black belts such as the Nogs doesn't necessarily make his BJJ good enough to submit the likes of Dan Henderson.

I'm not drifting away from any thing, that's been my point the entire time, that he isn't capable of submitting Dan Henderson.

I don't need some sort of lecture about how MMA fighters need to be well versed in all aspects of the game, I'm fully aware of that....(and you say I'm drifting away from the original point, you're the one rambling here about nothing).

Again, what has Anderson being cornered into BJJ positions got to do with any thing? What's that got to do with the original point at hand? Machida has also had opportunities to flaunt his BJJ talents, but very rarely has done. He was cornered into a dangerous positions with Jon Jones against the cage two fights ago, he didn't find a way out of that position, Anderson, most likely would have.

My original point is that weighing up both Machida's and Hendersons abilities, there's really nothing from any of their previous fights to suggest that Machida could pull out a sub (which is what you originally implied). You then went on to compare Anderson and Machida and said some thing along the lines of, "if Anderson can do it, why can't Machida". Machida can't because he isn't Anderson Silva. He's simply not technically as good as Anderson Silva on the ground and there is nothing from Machida's previous fights to suggest that he is.


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## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

Henderson>Machida.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Machida > Henderson


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## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

GrappleRetarded said:


> Rua has more power in his strikes than Machida and that's backed up by facts and statistics. Rua has 21 professional wins, with 18 of those being KO/TKO victories.
> 
> Machida has 18 wins and 7 KO/TKO stoppages. That's quite the difference.
> 
> Before Machida clobbered Rashad Evans, he was criticised for being a pillow handed fighter (ridiculous criticism either way). Machida does have power, but he's no where near the knock out artist that Shogun Rua is, and the facts illustrate that.


The contention isn't about career KO or style of fighting for these guys, I doubt Rua's ko are purely from punching power, but more to his diverse muay thai striking, clinch work, and soccer kicks. He's also more willing to take damage to give damage, aka chutebox style and has been rewarded for it via kos, but has also incurred the costs. Regardless, Machida can yield more effective power in the situation he creates, than lets say a weakened or sloppy Rua. But the contention never was he has greater punching power, much less technique. Shogun is probably the stronger overall puncher.



GrappleRetarded said:


> Hendersons striking in MMA mainly consists of boxing, so yea, his MMA boxing is very good. He has brutalised and beaten elite level strikers with his boxing alone. Wandy, Shogun, Fejaou, Vitor Belfort, I guess you could even label Michael Bisping as an upper echelon striker, and he destroyed him too.


None of those guys are great boxers (yes including Vitor), arguably no one in LHW really is. You cant argue with Hendo's relative success but the better boxing in MMA belongs to the guys like the Diaz', Edgar, Bj Penn and Anderson


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

I see Machida winning this by being the quicker, more accurate, and more elusive fighter. I love me some Henderson and would love to see him win by ko but think he has his work cut out for him in this fight. Machida by decision or tko.


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

Iuanes said:


> The contention isn't about career KO or style of fighting for these guys, I doubt Rua's ko are purely from punching power, but more to his diverse muay thai striking, clinch work, and soccer kicks. He's also more willing to take damage to give damage, aka chutebox style and has been rewarded for it via kos, but has also incurred the costs. Regardless, Machida can yield more effective power in the situation he creates, than lets say a weakened or sloppy Rua. But the contention never was he has greater punching power, much less technique. Shogun is probably the stronger overall puncher.
> 
> 
> 
> *None of those guys are great boxers (yes including Vitor), arguably no one in LHW really is. You cant argue with Hendo's relative success but the better boxing in MMA belongs to the guys like the Diaz', Edgar, Bj Penn and Anderson*


This is really all just speculation on your part and you haven't really backed it up with any thing.

Edgar has quick hands and decent footwork, but that's really just about it. He's no real sense of timing, he's inaccurate, doesn't throw more than 2-3 punch combinations and has troubles with range. He also gets hit a lot.

Gustaffsson is a very good LHW boxer, and Vitor Belfort has proven to possess deadly hands. I think you're underestimating both his and Hendersons boxing ability. Henderson doesn't get by beating elite strikers with sub-par boxing skills. As I said, he's accurate, has great timing, cuts off the cage very well and packs dynamite in both hands. He reminds me of a less technical Mark Hunt.

The contention was only about Rua/Machida's punching power. You said that you don't think Rua has more punching power than Machida in any circumstance, I disagree. He hits a whole lot harder than Machida. I think the harder puncher/striker of the two was very evident in Rua/Machidas first encounter.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

GrappleRetarded said:


> I'm not drifting away from any thing, that's been my point the entire time, that he isn't capable of submitting Dan Henderson.
> .


This. This is the very point we disagree. If you said you don't believe Machida could submit Hendo is one thing, but this level of assurance? You woudn't bet your life on that would you?

No one can guarantee results on something so natural as a top contender submiting another or not. It certainly can be yelled out loud, but it doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

I definetely don't belong to the WILL/WON'T wagon. Specially when all the odds we've already witnessed in this sports.

We live with that then. No big...


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## GrappleRetarded (Jun 22, 2012)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> This. This is the very point we disagree. If you said you don't believe Machida could submit Hendo is one thing, but this level of assurance? You woudn't bet your life on that would you?
> 
> No one can guarantee results on something so natural as a top contender submiting another or not. It certainly can be yelled out loud, but it doesn't mean it's gonna happen.
> 
> ...


This is MMA, nothing is set in stone. Of course there is the possibility that Machida could sub Dan Henderson, but that's a very slim possibility and some thing I'm not willing to really acknowledge.

I'll rephrase in that case. Any fighter has a chance to pull of any thing at this level of the game (Matt Hughes vs Ricardo Almeida is a shocking reminder of that), including Machida subbing Henderson, but the chances are extremely slim.

The entire reason I got into this debate was because you were hinting at Machida subbing Henderson and I couldn't really figure out why, and still can't.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

GrappleRetarded said:


> Any fighter has a chance to pull of any thing at this level of the game (Matt Hughes vs Ricardo Almeida is a shocking reminder of that), including Machida subbing Henderson, but the chances are extremely slim.


Man, for a sec I would bring this example, but I dropped. That was amazing, indeed.



GrappleRetarded said:


> The entire reason I got into this debate was because you were hinting at Machida subbing Henderson and I couldn't really figure out why, and still can't.


Ok, actually Evilappendix was the one stating Machida would finish Hendo on page 2.


evilappendix said:


> Machida will sub Henderson.


Then, deadsmanhand said he didn't believe in that on page 3. I stayed inbetween and just said Machida could very well do it, although he is a Karate Man. Never affirmid he would, but this is water under the bridge.




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## zath the champ (Feb 13, 2008)

<----- Machida fan boy

<----- Man crush on Hendo

Awesome fight!!!

*Head Explodes*


Machida wins via TKO - looks like the Rashad Evans fight.


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## 3DLee (Aug 30, 2006)

Ive tried to avoid posting in here since this thread was first started, but I can't help myself lol. 

First off, I don't think Hendo should have to fight another fight. He's not like Shogun/Machida who turned down the fight with Jones. He just got hurt a little bit. I think being the last SF LHW champ and then came over and put on a FOTY performance and won against Shogun, he should still get the winner of Jones vs Vitor. I still think thats the fight that most MMA fans want to see. 


But, Im not Dana or Joe Silva. So if they decide to put this match on, Im going with Dan simply because Im a nuthugger of his and I think that Hendo v Machida would look a lot like Shogun v Machida 2. Hendo wins via KO Round 1. I just dont want Dan getting any older before he faces Jon Jones lol.


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

I see this going Lyoto's way. Keeping the distance and out pointing Dan, then ducking under and taking Hendo down when he gets too close. I think Machida either subs him or wins a one sided UD.

Hendo's right hand is probably the most dangerous single punch in all of MMA, so I wouldn't rule a KO win for him, I just don't think he'll land with it.


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## MMA specialist (Nov 8, 2010)

Will def be rooting for Hendo but if Lyoto can come out looking the same way he did against Rashad with a really high pace and sharpshooting with high kicks; his style could work reall well against Dan because of the speed advantage,


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Hendo's H-Bomb is as real as it gets, but it's like those heavy freighter jets taking off, needing a lot of runway. You can see how he coils it from far away then steps in throwing it along his whole weight. It requires perfect distance and timing to land. 

That being said, Lyoto's ultra fast brain activity detector should defuse that bomb at early stage. Maybe even before launch.


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## GlasgowKiss (Sep 18, 2010)

Machida is going to pick Dan apart and make him look old. Dan's stand up is effective but its pretty basic, whilst I'd say Machida's is on a whole other level in terms of technique, range, footwork etc. The Shogun that faced Machida was not the one who faced Henderson, he has looked a lot more sluggish slow and prone to brawling since his return. Nor is this the same nervous Machida who fought Jackson. He will be far too quick for Dan, and will slow Dan down from the outside with kicks, and catching him coming in. Dan will tire then possibly crumble from body kicks, knees etc.

The punchers chance is there, but I don't see it.


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## dsmjrv (Jan 27, 2010)

machida has the tools and the speed to KO hendo.. hendos chin is not like it was 5 years ago, even then he could get rocked but usually survived (besides silva)now he is significantly weaker, just watch the shogun fight, blame it on his conditioning but he almost went out from shoguns 60% shots.. 

this is machidas fight, if he stays patient and doesnt take risks while hendo is fresh he should be able to get the tko late second or third round.. 

hendo has been very acurate with his H-bomb lately so if he can press the pace then an early ko/tko is very likely..

machida though he is a great striker, when he gains confidence he takes risks that are not very smart.. just watch his fight with jones, there is a fight defining exchange there that proves machida took that risk and lost.. he has the footwork to not get hit but if he is having success he will go for it and that is why he got ko'd by shogun and whooped by jones...


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

dsmjrv said:


> machida though he is a great striker, when he gains confidence he takes risks that are not very smart.. just watch his fight with jones, there is a fight defining exchange there that proves machida took that risk and lost.. he has the footwork to not get hit but if he is having success he will go for it and that is why he got ko'd by shogun and whooped by jones...


He was not like that in the past, but I believe he really felt the pressure of being called a boring, burocratic fighter, although we all know he climbed the steps as a talentous counter-striker. He is, indeed taking more risks nowadays and pressing forward more often, what takes him away from his confort zone.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> He was not like that in the past, but I believe he really felt the pressure of being called a boring, burocratic fighter, although we all know he climbed the steps as a talentous counter-striker. He is, indeed taking more risks nowadays and pressing forward more often, what takes him away from his confort zone.


I said a few times earlier in this thread that he seemed like he was completley refocused in the Bader fight. He probably recognized what was happening and changed his style.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

St.Paul Guy said:


> http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/9/14/3333370/ufc-targeting-machida-vs-henderson-top-contenders-battle
> 
> 
> Sounds pretty freakin' epic.
> ...


The Loyoto I've been seeing recently beats everyone, even Jones. Henderson will be a great test for him, and a needed test. Henderson is a good wrestler, but that's not his MO, and he couldn't take Loyoto to the ground if he wanted to. He's going to load up on the right hand, and I don't see this being effective. He's going to be picked apart and easily evaded. 

Chin may be an issue if Henderson connects early. I don't see a Jake Shields recovery against the TRT beast. 

But again, I don't think Loyoto has been 100% until recently. I see him coming away with another impressive win.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Taking bets now on who's pulling out first.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Rauno said:


> Taking bets now on who's pulling out first.


Barney Stinson


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## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

Rauno said:


> Taking bets now on who's pulling out first.


NOOOOOOOOO

MMA Gods how have we angered you?

Take Mir as sacrifice, but please spare this fight.


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## zath the champ (Feb 13, 2008)

Rauno said:


> Taking bets now on who's pulling out first.


Mods should know better than the jynx the "*Biggest Fight in LHW History © ®*"

 


Can't wait!!!!


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Should have been Hendo vs Jones then after Jones beats Hendo he can beat down Machida again.


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## BobbyD (Apr 27, 2008)

wtf i thought he was fighting jones??? sounds like dana's still pissy about 151


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

GlasgowKiss said:


> Machida is going to pick Dan apart and make him look old. Dan's stand up is effective but its pretty basic, whilst I'd say Machida's is on a whole other level in terms of technique, range, footwork etc. The Shogun that faced Machida was not the one who faced Henderson, he has looked a lot more sluggish slow and prone to brawling since his return. Nor is this the same nervous Machida who fought Jackson. He will be far too quick for Dan, and will slow Dan down from the outside with kicks, and catching him coming in. Dan will tire then possibly crumble from body kicks, knees etc.
> 
> The punchers chance is there, but I don't see it.


This. People don't seem to realize how inconsistent Shogun is and how inconsistent Machida was in that patch when he was losing to everyone.

A peak Machida picks Henderson apart any day of the week. Henderson has made a huge reputation out of smashing great fighters on the decline (Wanderlei, Fedor, Shogun). I don't think he would beat any of those fighters at their peak. He's not half bad obviously, but I think Machida takes this.

Most likely though we never see this fight because it's far too intriguing to not fall to injury.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> This. People don't seem to realize how inconsistent Shogun is and how inconsistent Machida was in that patch when he was losing to everyone.
> 
> A peak Machida picks Henderson apart any day of the week. *Henderson has made a huge reputation out of smashing great fighters on the decline (Wanderlei, Fedor, Shogun).* I don't think he would beat any of those fighters at their peak. He's not half bad obviously, but I think Machida takes this.
> 
> Most likely though we never see this fight because it's far too intriguing to not fall to injury.


While the bolded may be true, he has put together a hell of a streak and some damn good fights... regardless of whether the fighters were on a decline or not. Hendo has earned his title shot. I don't get why he has to fight Machida now. High risk with no reward IMO.


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## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

PheelGoodInc said:


> While the bolded may be true, he has put together a hell of a streak and some damn good fights... regardless of whether the fighters were on a decline or not. Hendo has earned his title shot. I don't get why he has to fight Machida now. High risk with no reward IMO.


Dan is/was on just as much of a decline as those guys, they were all in there prime around the same time. He just adapted a big right hand along the way.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

locnott said:


> Dan is/was on just as much of a decline as those guys, they were all in there prime around the same time. He just adapted a big right hand along the way.


No he has the synthetic testosterone of a 21 year old, while those others don't. I don't understand how people conveniently overlook that.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

I don't think it's fair to say that Fedor was only beaten because he was on the decline. Hendo caught him with a punch and finished him on the ground. Fedor has been caught a million times, and he just managed to roll out of it. He was always given A LOT of time to fight out of it in other promotions but the Strikeforce guys opted to finish the fight there. Could have happened at any stage in his career.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> I don't think it's fair to say that Fedor was only beaten because he was on the decline. Hendo caught him with a punch and finished him on the ground. Fedor has been caught a million times, and he just managed to roll out of it. He was always given A LOT of time to fight out of it in other promotions but the Strikeforce guys opted to finish the fight there. Could have happened at any stage in his career.


Could have but didn't. 

Fedor ate guys like Werdum and Bigfoot for breakfast back in the day, and he certainly didn't decision gatekeepers like Monson.

Beating Fedor at that stage isn't the same as the pre-2010 Fedor. The same way adding a Chuck KO via feather-tap to your highlight reel in 2010 isn't the same as going toe to toe with the iceman back in 2005.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Easily one of the worst stoppages in MMA history. Fedor wasn't even out. Plus after taking more illegal shots to the back of the head he still managed to turn over.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

BOOM said:


> Easily one of the worst stoppages in MMA history. Fedor wasn't even out. Plus after taking more illegal shots to the back of the head he still managed to turn over.


Ahhhhhhhhh!! You're one of THOSE Fedor fans... Explains a lot.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

PheelGoodInc said:


> While the bolded may be true, he has put together a hell of a streak and some damn good fights... regardless of whether the fighters were on a decline or not. Hendo has earned his title shot. I don't get why he has to fight Machida now. High risk with no reward IMO.


I think he's getting this fight because he's partly to blame for the 151 fiasco. He shouldn't have hidden his injury till one week before the fight and hatched these last minute schenanigans, he should have mentioned it to Dana 3 weeks before and gotten a suitable replacement.

Now the timeline is a bit off with Bones just having fought a month later and possibly injured himself as well, so Henderson has to do a "stay relevant" fight. It's only fair.


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## BOOM (Sep 23, 2012)

Killz said:


> Ahhhhhhhhh!! You're one of THOSE Fedor fans... Explains a lot.


Yes I'm one of those MMA fans that understands the difference between getting stunned and what an actual knock out is. The fight was definitely stopped early.

Take a look at Fedor vs Rizzo, that's a legit knock out. No questions asked.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

BOOM said:


> Easily one of the worst stoppages in MMA history. Fedor wasn't even out. Plus after taking more illegal shots to the back of the head he still managed to turn over.


Hahaha

Is this guy serious??


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## locnott (Apr 1, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> Hahaha
> 
> Is this guy serious??


Unfortunately, yes, yes he is..

Got to admit, when Fedor still managed to turn over I almost spilled my popcorn,,, almost..


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Liddellianenko said:


> Could have but didn't.
> 
> Fedor ate guys like Werdum and Bigfoot for breakfast back in the day, and he certainly didn't decision gatekeepers like Monson.
> 
> Beating Fedor at that stage isn't the same as the pre-2010 Fedor. The same way adding a Chuck KO via feather-tap to your highlight reel in 2010 isn't the same as going toe to toe with the iceman back in 2005.


Yeah I get what you mean man. Beating Fedor off of two stoppage losses is a lot less highlighting than stopping Fedor when he was undefeated and in his prime. At the same time though I still feel like it could have easily happened any time they two faught. Fedor took a lot of punches at times, and Hendo can drop anyone on the planet. The stoppage was a little bit early for someone like Fedor, but at the end of the day he was taking big shots unanswered and flattened out a little bit. Any referee is just to finish it at that point.

Yeah I dont know what to think with the Werdum loss. You can say "He just got caught in a sub, it can happen to anyone", but Fedor SOMEHOW fasught through subs that caught him his entire career, almost to superhuman degrees. He was enduring triangles to the stage where most would have went out. He def smashes Big Foot in his prime though. I'd have actually liked to see a rematch of that. Seeing how Velasquez smashed him that badly, I think Fedor could do the same even now.


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