# Who thinks Fedor would submit Mir?



## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

Ive been reading alot of posts lately that say Fedor is a way better submission artist than Mir and hed submit Brock by armbar no problem, is he a that great of submission artist? cause I dont think so. I feel its his overall game thats the best, but the best submission in the world at HW, I just dont know, what are your thoughts.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Fedor submit Mir? No, Fedor's actual submissions aren't as good as Mir but his positioning and overall grappling are probably better so he would be more likely to get Lesnar in a position to apply a submission than Mir.


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## TERMINATOR (Jul 6, 2008)

I would say nog has the best bjj or mir. Close one to call. to answer the question no I dont think fedor would sub mir. Beat him? probably but would make for a hell of a scrap


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

Toxic said:


> Fedor submit Mir? No, Fedor's actual submissions aren't as good as Mir but his positioning and overall grappling are probably better so he would be more likely to get Lesnar in a position to apply a submission than Mir.


No doubt


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## Ground'N'Pound5 (Aug 7, 2009)




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## King Koopa (Jun 28, 2009)

i think that he'd have a pretty good shot at it


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## NikosCC (May 16, 2007)

I hate Mir more then anything in gods green earth so im hoping he is the first DEATH in UFC lol


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## NikosCC (May 16, 2007)

Amun said:


> Did Fedor submit Nog? Nope. He would pound Mir out and grind a decision or a GNP stoppage.


Lol thats not even something to put together.. Nog would Sub Mir. Mirs Submissions are nothing compared to NOGs. He got lucky last time he fought a Half dead Nog..


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Fedor has subbed way more guys, and way better opponents. I don't think Mir has subbed anyone who has a good ground game at all. Roberto Traven was the best ground game he faced, but he wasn't really a good MMA fighter. Fedor subs Mir 8/10, but that's just my opinion.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

I think Fedor would go for the GnP and either finish it that way or by decision. Trying sub Mir would be a guaranteed decision IMHO.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Amun said:


> Nog's jits is a little more advanced than Mirs, but that's really not the point. Fedor would not submit Mir. It's very difficult to submit a good jits practicioner as their sub defence level is extremely good.


Tottally disagree, Nog may be more technically sound and a better practioner but Mir's jitz is more advanced than Nog's, what I mean by that is Nog is an ace at somewhat standard BJJ, there are now tricks in his toolbox just plain old practival jitsx. Mir trains with world champions in BJJ and has more tools in his box he just isnt as good at utilizing them.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Yeah, a super over-rated Frank Mir could definitely tap out someone who's won eleven world ***** competitions, a judo competition, and has as many submission victories under his belt as Mir has anything victories.

Let's not get ridiculous here. Who has Frank Mir submitted who was a good ground fighter? I know the Sylvia triangle armbar looked impressive, but breaking the arm of a lanky guy with no jiu jitsu and notoriously bad ground game...?

In an all-grappling match, you guys don't see Fedor dominating Mir? Even a pre-accident Mir would be outclassed.

Now, Maia vs. Fedor in an all-grappling match would be amazing. I think Fedor would be in trouble... he's a lot stronger but so is Gonzaga and Maia got him twice. Not to say that GG is anywhere near Fedor's level tho.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I think if your looking for a guy to sub Mir you need to look to a real elite level submission grappler, your looking at Ricardo Arona, Fabricio Werdum, Jeff Monson, your looking at some of the best submission guys in the world and people who are more advanced than your run of the mill BJJ black belt.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

jcal said:


> Ive been reading alot of posts lately that say Fedor is a way better submission artist than Mir and hed submit Brock by armbar no problem, is he a that great of submission artist? cause I dont think so. I feel its his overall game thats the best, but the best submission in the world at HW, I just dont know, what are your thoughts.


Well, lets first talk about the possibility of submitting Brock Lesnar.

Firstly, Fedor submitted a guy who weighs 130 pounds more than him. Just attempting submissions on someone who weighs 20-40 pounds more is incredible (that, of course, is routine for Fedor), so the submission he got on Choi was unbelievable.

Secondly, Fedor's submission game is designed for fighters who come straight at him. While Mir (who, I should say, is a very good grappler, and absolutely no slouch off of his back) has a submission game that, while aggressive and very useful while he's taking a beating, really does make use of the traditional guard and posture control. Of course, Mir's two biggest wins, and many of his other submission victories in MMA, have been used in combination or in response to brutal combinations of strikes, but his game does center around traditional BJJ, while Fedor is a fighter who's game is built to be used in combination with strikes.

While I've heard Mir talking a lot of sh*t lately, I think it's worth saying that Fedor, while certainly not on the same plain as fellow Russian Alexander Karelin when it comes to dominance, is far and away the best ***** fighter in the world, and that is largely due to his freakish submission game.

Mir is nowhere near the top ten, or even top twenty, in jiu-jitsu. He's just not.

In terms of pure submission grappling, Fedor does make mistakes that no self-respecting BJJ brown or blackbelt would make. He didn't swing the leg over properly when he was falling back for an armbar against Mark Hunt. That was bad jiu-jitsu.

On the other hand, if you want his reversal of Randleman, which is classic judo, that is something that no jiu-jitsu fighter would attempt, much less pull off.

His grappling game is radically different (even if he ends up using the same submissions most of the time), and that's part of what makes him devastating.

If he took on Mir in no-gi grappling, I'm not entirely sure I'd take Fedor as a prohibitive favorite, but I'd certainly pick him to win, on the basis that he's dominated ***** for so long and Mir, lets face it, will never, ever, be a Mundial champion.

That said, I think that Fedor would get killed in pure grappling (gi or no-gi) by the world's top grapplers. I think Xande, Roger, Jacare and so on would have a challenge with the first two points, as his takedowns are very good and his judo is phenomenal, but the reality is, those guys are much better on the mat.

I can get into why that is, what Fedor's technical deficiencies are (though I've alluded to them already), but I think it's sufficient to say that someone like Mir, who's not in the upper echelon of pure grappling, wouldn't be able to exploit them.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

jcal said:


> Ive been reading alot of posts lately that say Fedor is a way better submission artist than Mir and hed submit Brock by armbar no problem, is he a that great of submission artist? cause I dont think so. I feel its his overall game thats the best, but the best submission in the world at HW, I just dont know, what are your thoughts.


Oh, Fedor doesn't have the BEST submission game in the world, but he's damn good, I think. 

I think it's hard to say anyone other than Big Nog has the best submission game, though.


As for Mir, maybe people have caught on that I just really don't see that much in Mir, but I can't think exactly why everyone thinks he's a great submission artist when the only person of note I can see that he's submitted was Tim Sylvia - who has no real ground game at all.

I guess he did submit that one BJJ black belt champion, but other than him and Lesnar - who has these tiny legs that my sister could pull on and he'd tap - is Mir all that great of an MMA submission artist?


Maybe he's a world class BJJ guy - that I don't really know - and that's why people consider him, but couldn't you say MMA BJJ is different than BJJ proper as well?


Just saying.



Toxic said:


> I think if your looking for a guy to sub Mir you need to look to a real elite level submission grappler, your looking at Ricardo Arona, Fabricio Werdum, Jeff Monson, your looking at some of the best submission guys in the world and people who are more advanced than your run of the mill BJJ black belt.


Just a note, and not a criticism, isn't it kind of funny how technical we get when start throwing around phrases like "run of the mill BJJ black belt"? I mean, you have to be really looking deep to start calling a BJJ black belt run of the mill, as if just anyone off the street can get one.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Toxic said:


> I think if your looking for a guy to sub Mir you need to look to a real elite level submission grappler, your looking at Ricardo Arona, Fabricio Werdum, Jeff Monson, your looking at some of the best submission guys in the world and people who are more advanced than your run of the mill BJJ black belt.


Oh, just to clarify, I think all three of the guys you mentioned would definitely tap Mir in pure grappling.

So would the real top guys (not just top grapplers who also compete in MMA).

In pure grappling, Roger Gracie would eat Mir and Fedor for dinner, then have Brock for desert.


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## machidaisgod (Aug 14, 2009)

Fedor submits ufc cans that have been canned, he is media illusion.


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## KryptoNITE^^ (Jul 27, 2009)

machidaisgod said:


> Fedor submits ufc cans that have been canned, he is media illusion.


Who has Machida beaten other than Rashad the tuffer and Thiago 'I get dropped everytime I get hit' Silva? Karate boy ain't shit.

^ See? I can twist reality into fantasy too.


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## Hawk (Aug 3, 2009)

Yes he would


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

machidaisgod said:


> Fedor submits ufc cans that have been canned, he is media illusion.


You realize arlovski left the UFC voluntarily, right? Up until his recent loss to Rogers, Dana wanted him back.

Timmay is still the most dominant HW champ behind Couture.

And then there's the who's-who list of top HW's he fought in Pride.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

Mir has never really submitted any good ground fighters in MMA. I think Fedor is definetly the better grappler and has the better submissions. I dont think he would submit him though unless he rocked him first. I think Mirs good enough to avoid being subd but I think he would get his face pounded into a TKO stoppage pretty quickly.


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## mmafreak93 (Aug 17, 2009)

I think that if they had a submission wrestling match, Mir would win. But in an actuall fight, Fedor is so much better. Fedor would either ko/tko Mir. He has better standup, and he could easily cancel out Mirs bjj.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

Fedor much more of an accomplished submission artist. He was the ***** HW champ for a while I believe, and has submitted higher caliber competition. In a MMA fight I don't think he would be as successful in submitting Mir then if it was a grappling match, he would just GnP the shit out of him. But who's the better submission artist? Fedor without a doubt.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

SuicideJohnson said:


> Fedor has subbed way more guys, and way better opponents. I don't think Mir has subbed anyone who has a good ground game at all. Roberto Traven was the best ground game he faced, but he wasn't really a good MMA fighter. Fedor subs Mir 8/10, but that's just my opinion.


I guess its my day to look like a Fador hater even though im no but who exactly did Fedor sub with a Jiu-Jitsu game as good as Mirs? IMO it would look ironically a lot like what brock did to mir.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

slapshot said:


> I guess its my day to look like a Fador hater even though im no but who exactly did Fedor sub with a Jiu-Jitsu game as good as Mirs? IMO it would look ironically a lot like what brock did to mir.


10 years of Top ***** and judo opponents?


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

slapshot said:


> *who exactly did Fedor sub with a Jiu-Jitsu game as good as Mirs?*





khoveraki said:


> 10 years of Top ***** and judo opponents?


= nobody thanks for clearing that up.:thumb02:


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

slapshot said:


> I guess its my day to look like a Fador hater even though im no but who exactly did Fedor sub with a Jiu-Jitsu game as good as Mirs? IMO it would look ironically a lot like what brock did to mir.


Wait... Why is Mir's BJJ so brilliant? Who has he really even submitted? 

Tank Abbott? Come on now.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

slapshot said:


> I guess its my day to look like a Fador hater even though im no but who exactly did Fedor sub with a Jiu-Jitsu game as good as Mirs? IMO it would look ironically a lot like what brock did to mir.


It's not just about jiu-jitsu. I hate this mentality that BJJ is the only form of submission grappling. I think it's the best form of submission fighting, but it's not the only kind.

We're talking about a guy who has dominated two forms of martial arts competition that are heavily submission oriented for years.

It'd be like if we were talking about having Karelin come over to fight in judo. Sure, Karelin's never won a major title in judo before, but I'd still be on him. You know why? Cuz he's been throwing people around since he learned how to walk.

Fedor is the same way.

Still, we're talking about Frank Mir, who got beat pretty badly by Pe De Pano. I like Frank, but it's not as though he's even top twenty in the world in jiu-jitsu.

In a pure jiu-jitsu match, it might be competitive, but Fedor, with the gi (especially) would tool Mir. Without him, it might be fun, but I still see Fedor winning.

Does he pull out a submission? I don't know, that's a longer conversation.

I've never seen Fedor close to getting submitted, and I've never seen Mir escape submission attempts from guys who, realistically, have world class jiu-jitsu.

There are a few holes in Fedor's ground game. There are a lot of holes in Mir's ground game (and he really should avoid talking sh*t about Nogueira's jiu-jitsu in the future, because he's not a pure grappler at all).

Anyway, I'd like to see them fight in a gi grappling match, ideally BJJ. I think Fedor would kick Mir's ass, and probably throw him around a little bit, which would be fun to watch.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

IronMan said:


> It's not just about jiu-jitsu. I hate this mentality that BJJ is the only form of submission grappling. I think it's the best form of submission fighting, but it's not the only kind.
> 
> We're talking about a guy who has dominated two forms of martial arts competition that are heavily submission oriented for years.
> 
> ...


I dont think any of them automatically translate to MMA in the UFC, jiu-jitsu just translates a little better than Judo or Samba in the submission aspect of ground fighting. Without a gi you cut out a lot of effectiveness so it is just harder to transition into a MMA fight effectively. 

Ive seen a guy that dominated one martial art and was a third degree black belt get his ass handed to him in a podunk bar outside of Kalispell Montana, by a cowboy with obviously no training at all. 

My point here is not all combat sports translate to MMA well, just bits and peaces do. I dont feel Fedor has world class jiu-jitsu, he has good Jiu-jitsu but its not like he's tapping people with omoplata's. 

If you want to nitpick and call it "submission game" that way no style is overly credited thats fine with me, anyway you slice it the question of the topic is "would" Fedor tap Mir not "could" he and I stand firm the odds are he pounds Mir out. 


> Does he pull out a submission? I don't know, that's a longer conversation.


Well thats kind of the conversation we are having here.:confused02:
We are not talking any "pure" jitz match or some judo competition we/I are/am talking in the cage in a MMA event.
After reading you're statement Im not sure you thought about the context of my original statement because we more parallel than cross.

You also fail to come up with a name of a better (submission) fighter than Mir that Fedor has submitted probably because he's not faced one and submitted them.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

slapshot said:


> I dont think any of them automatically translate to MMA in the UFC, jiu-jitsu just translates a little better than Judo or Samba in the submission aspect of ground fighting.


I think Fedor's history in MMA pretty clearly demonstrates how well his game translates.

His takedowns, which are a huge part of his game in judo and *****, have been dominant against the non-wrestlers (a category Mir would fit into) that he's fought.

His submissions, which were heavily judo centric (ude garami/kimura; juji gatame/armbar) during his Pride career had a very high success rate.

He submitted more than half his opponents.

Of course, Mir is better on the mat than Randleman, Coleman or Ogawa.

That said, I don't think an MMA fight with Mir would ever hit the mat. I think Mir would end up staring at the lights, partly because his boxing hasn't been as devastating as Fedor's, and partly because I think it's been clearly demonstrated that a TKO is the best way to finish Mir.



> Ive seen a guy that dominated two martial arts and was a third degree black belt get his ass handed to him in a podunk bar outside of Kalispell Montana, by a cowboy with obviously no training at all.


Really? You saw a guy with three world championships in a full contact sport get beat up by a cowboy?

Or did you see a McDojo blackbelt with a big mouth who told you he was dominant get stomped?

C'mon. We're talking about two real fighters. Not a bar fight between a guy who pretends to have a background and a guy who ropes cattle six days a week.



> My point here is not all combat sports translate to MMA well just bits and peaces do. I dont feel Fedor has world class jiu-jitsu, he has good Jiu-jitsu but its not like he's tapping people with omoplata's.


You don't feel Fedor has world class jiu-jitsu?

Fine. Neither does Frank Mir.

After all, Mir has never won a Mundial title. He's never been on a podium at the world championships. That's the definition of a world class jiu-jitsu practioner.

I don't think Fedor's jitz is world class either. But he's never competed in jiu-jitsu and he's not a jiu-jitsu practitioner.

Not to mention there are a lot of sports jiu-jitsu guys that don't do well in MMA (see Marcelo Garcia).

16 of his wins are by submission. Frank Mir doesn't tap people with omoplatas. I don't see your point.

Are you saying that Fedor is using moves that aren't jiu-jitsu moves?

Because that wrong. And Fedor's not a jiu-jitsu guy.

Clearly you missed my bit about the differentiation between *the submission game* and *Jiu-Jitsu*.



> Well thats kind of the conversation we are having here.:confused02:


If they fight MMA, Fedor will do exactly what Pe De Pano and Ian Freeman did to him. Punch him in the face until he's done. That fight isn't going to end with a submission, but not because Fedor can't submit Mir.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Im too lazy to edit this right so Ill just toss my answers in in green.


IronMan said:


> I think Fedor's history in MMA pretty clearly demonstrates how well his game translates.
> Exactly, FADOR's skill has shown HE is dominant and able to adapt his style to MMA. And Karo Parisyan has also found some success along with some other fights but that says more about them than it dose there style of martial art.
> His takedowns, which are a huge part of his game in judo and *****, have been dominant against the non-wrestlers (a category Mir would fit into) that he's fought.
> I dont think I said they are not effective...
> ...


I dont disagree with that at all, I disagree with the idea that Fador in a fight Mir would submit him, not because he cant but because its the least likely outcome.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

slapshot said:


> I dont disagree with that at all, I disagree with the idea that Fador in a fight Mir would submit him, not because he cant but because its the least likely outcome.


Yeah, the original post wasn't intended to answer this question. It was addressed at the question of whether Fedor *could* submit Mir. And I think it's clear that he could.

For me, it's not about what Fedor's best at. I think he's better at everything that Frank is (which was part of why I brought up why Fedor would win in a submission grappling match). It's about where Frank is worst, and I think history has shown that he loses as the result of strikes, not submissions.

So, that's my logic.

Like you said, I think we agree on the outcome.

You asked, who has Fedor submitted with a better jiu-jitsu game than Mir. My point was that jiu-jitsu isn't the defining standard when it comes to submissions in MMA.


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