# 10 UFC Legends Who Barely Had MMA Skills



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

> The days of the one trick fighters are over.
> 
> Nowadays a UFC fighter has to be versed in multiple disciplines, but not long back a good punch and basic wrestling would get it done. Take a look at successful guys who didn’t exactly have a whole load of dimensions to the term ‘MMA’.
> 
> ...


http://whatculture.com/ufc/10-ufc-legends-barely-mma-skills.php


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

This article is just wrong. Painful, and wrong.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Where to start. Lets start with Chuck, it was his wrestling and BJJ skills that made him hard to take down and virtually impossible to keep down. Its what allowed him to implement his striking game plan. Tito Ortiz was a very good grappler (hell he almost submitted Machida off his back) and contrary to people flawed memories, Tito was a more than adequate striker who more than held his own with Liddell prior to the KO punch and you may aso remember he almost knocked out Ryan Bader. Ken Shamrock was the original well rounded fighter, he was the first UFC prototype of a guy who could do it all. Wanderlei Silva holds black belts in both Judo and BJJ, Sakuraba was a truly unique fighter who doesn't fit any traditional stereotype. 

To say any of these guys barely had skills is absurd as even those who were one dimensional showed incredible skill in one aspect and showed they at least had enough skill in the other departments to defend there weakness and implement there strengths because otherwise they would not have been successful fighters.

To be honest I think you have either ran out of things to write about and am really reaching or you are trying to be controversial in order to get hits. Either way I would recommend on maybe slowing down your output and focusing on quality vs quanity. Sorry Kanto but this is not your best work.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

Yea... Chuck was hard as hell to takedown, hard to keep down, hard to submit, lovely footwork, underrated kicks, power, accuracy and at one point, a great chin. 

But ok, barely any mma skills.

And Goodridge.. actually the first guy to ever defend a takedown with a sprawl in the UFC.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Yup, all those guys are simplistic sluggers with close to no skills at MMA. :confused01:


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Since we're all tearing this down. You do know that Mark Kerr won the ADCC, the most prestigious no-gi grappling tournament on the planet, twice right? That's that tournament that Werdum gets so much credit for winning. Oh and Kerr won the open weight as well as his weight class. Which is something Werdum has never done.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

You could actually write a whole book refuting that article. But Im still in too much pain from reading it. I can honestly say I dont think Ive read anything more wrong as an MMA article. But Im not just going to complain:

Suggestions for things for you to write about that are more legit Kanto. 

"The Godfather of Ground and Pound" - Mark Colemans rise to UFC champ, and the introduction of ground and pound to MMA. How it was adapted and developed by the likes of Tito, and how in the modern age fighters learned to defend it properly.

"From Numbers to Knockouts" How a guy like Chuck Liddell gets a degree in accounting by day and starts a career as a fighter by night and gradually becomes the biggest superstar in the Sport. 

"Skinny" How Royce Gracie one of the most inexperienced Gracies, came and fought some of the most dangerous men in the world, and conquered them all as a smaller, slower, weaker guy. bringing in new era of Ju Jitsu a sport that has become an essential part of fighting that now evolves almost monthly. Why now just knowing JJ is not enough

Mark Kerr "Fall from Grace" How one of the most feared men in MMA, slowly but surely disintegrated due to his personal life and bad habits. 

Do some proper journalism, call up these guys, write to them. Ask them questions get inside information, do some digging. Write proper informed articles with your own style of writing. Be intrigued by the story, not your personally opinion, let the facts and real stories develop into your opinion with comments here and there. Form Kantowrestlers own style that sets you apart as an MMA journalist and builds your own brand as not only an authority as an MMA writer, but someone who gets deeper into it and knows the history. This will get you followers, better pay, and credibility in the industry.


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

Sorry Kanto but this is just....*bad*!


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## King Daisuke (Mar 25, 2013)

Not to kick a man when he's down, but no. Just no!


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Life B Ez said:


> Oh and Kerr won the open weight as well as his weight class. Which is something Werdum has never done.



Sorry, but I must have missed something here. What are the special props on winning the open weight class if you are a super monster? If you win it being way lighter, then I can see it as something extra special.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> Sorry, but I must have missed something here. What are the special props on winning the open weight class if you are a super monster? If you win it being way lighter, then I can see it as something extra special.


Werdum competes in the same weight class Kerr did.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Life B Ez said:


> Werdum competes in the same weight class Kerr did.


Huh? Of course he does. And if he was the winner of the open weight as well my remark would be the very same. Props for them for winning among the big boys of their classes, but why should I see something special about Mark Kerr winning against way smaller dudes being himself a giant, man?

An open weight tournament, specially a grappling one, is a way bigger challenge for the lighter fighters, not the other way around. Maybe Werdum had this same idea as well and didn't compete because of that, who knows. 
What I know is Mark Kerr does not have no advantage over Werdum just because he won that open weight. Looks cool in his record, that's all.

http://bjjfights.com/leo-vieira-vs-mark-kerr-adcc/


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> Huh? Of course he does. And if he was the winner of the open weight as well my remark would be the very same. Props for them for winning among the big boys of their classes, but why should I see something special about Mark Kerr winning against way smaller dudes being himself a giant, man?
> 
> An open weight tournament, specially a grappling one, is a way bigger challenge for the lighter fighters, not the other way around. Maybe Werdum had this same idea as well and didn't compete because of that, who knows.
> What I know is Mark Kerr does not have no advantage over Werdum just because he won that open weight. Looks cool in his record, that's all.
> ...


I wasn't saying it was something that was incredibly difficult for Mark Kerr, just comparing the two and what they have done in the grappling world. Werdum has competed in open weight and not won, Kerr has that is all. Werdum competed in the open in 2007 if I remember correctly and he lost.

Also thanks for the "knowledge" on how bigger guys in grappling tournaments have it easier in open weight classes, when that has nothing to do with my original point, that if Kerr can do things that the current HW interim title holder and #1 contender has done he can't be considered to barely have MMA skills.

In fact I have no idea why I'm even engaging in this exchange, I'm not going to have a debate about grappling competition difficulty when my point was just to say Kerr has a skill set/qualifications of a guy no one would ever consider putting on this list because he is a current titleholder. But as always you have cherry picked the thing you'd like to debate and forgotten the context or meaning of how/when it was said. You're like the news and outrage groups. Is it because Werdum is brazilian and this some how comes across as a slight to him?


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Life B Ez said:


> I wasn't saying it was something that was incredibly difficult for Mark Kerr, just comparing the two and what they have done in the grappling world. Werdum has competed in open weight and not won, Kerr has that is all. Werdum competed in the open in 2007 if I remember correctly and he lost.
> 
> Also thanks for the "knowledge" on how bigger guys in grappling tournaments have it easier in open weight classes, when that has nothing to do with my original point, that if Kerr can do things that the current HW interim title holder and #1 contender has done he can't be considered to barely have MMA skills.
> 
> In fact I have no idea why I'm even engaging in this exchange, I'm not going to have a debate about grappling competition difficulty when my point was just to say Kerr has a skill set/qualifications of a guy no one would ever consider putting on this list because he is a current titleholder. *But as always you have cherry picked the thing you'd like to debate and forgotten the context or meaning of how/when it was said.* You're like the news and outrage groups. Is it because Werdum is brazilian and this some how comes across as a slight to him?


I cherry picked specifically this line...


> Oh and Kerr won the open weight as well as his weight class. Which is something Werdum has never done.


 to debate, because it made little sense to me, as I said, "I must have missed something". The fact I did not address ALL the rest of your post does not mean I disagree with it, on the contrary. That only line was weird for me and that was the line I quoted.

Unfortunately, you, who should be the one making an effort to be a good example around here, quit debating the subject to speak about my personality and bringing my nationality into the discussion. A childish attempt to get a raise from me, a a lame bait, coming from the "super mod" himself. :thumbsup:

*By the way, I wasn't the one who said Mark Kerr had barely no MMA skills, nor I support this idea.*


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok I would like to go ahead and clarify a few things in my own defense. Number one is that WhatCulture (the website I wrote this article for) had this topic as an option which I chose and the original idea was that the early UFC legends only needed basic overall MMA skills and Liddell needed to be included in the list cause he was in the picture for the article topic and the basic skills part was cut from the published article in the intro. Secondly, using that original overall skills theme let me cover every fighter: Mark Kerr had striking but still depended heavily on his grappling, Goodridge had very basic take down defense and heavily depeneded on his striking, Sakuraba was still wrestling based, Coleman was always a ground and pounder, Cro Cop did utilize basic submissions at times but was always a kick boxer, Silva may have those grappling black belts but has only one finish by submission, Tito was and still is wrestling based, same with Shamrock, Royce is a grappler pure and simple, and Liddell utilized his wrestling in his match with Silva and the rest of the time only used wrestling for spawl and brawling and loved to knock people out cause he had knockout power.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Ok I would like to go ahead and clarify a few things in my own defense. Number one is that WhatCulture (the website I wrote this article for) had this topic as an option which I chose and the original idea was that the early UFC legends only needed basic overall MMA skills and *Liddell needed to be included in the list cause he was in the picture for the article topic* and the basic skills part was cut from the published article in the intro. Secondly, using that original overall skills theme let me cover every fighter: Mark Kerr had striking but still depended heavily on his grappling, Goodridge had very basic take down defense and heavily depeneded on his striking, Sakuraba was still wrestling based, Coleman was always a ground and pounder, Cro Cop did utilize basic submissions at times but was always a kick boxer, Silva may have those grappling black belts but has only one finish by submission, Tito was and still is wrestling based, same with Shamrock, Royce is a grappler pure and simple, and Liddell utilized his wrestling in his match with Silva and the rest of the time only used wrestling for spawl and brawling and loved to knock people out cause he had knockout power.


the bolded part just blew my mind. 

Again Shamrock was never wrestling based hell he was never anything really based. Sakuraba was a pro wrestler but was more of a grappler than a wrestler. 

I think you should be coming up with your own ideas because if you try and fit the mold made by somebody else you will keep coming up with pieces that miss the mark like this. Its not the first time I have noticed this trend from you either were you post something that is absurd and seems like post baiting and then you clarify that it was a topic assigned to you. Seems like an insane way to operate.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well WhatCulture pays me to do their assigned articles whereas at MMA Freak I get to do whatever I want. If something comes out absurd at MMA Freak (which I'll admit they do from time to time) it's because I either over thought things or planned the writing process poorly. Though if I recall correctly the top 10 fattest list (from MMA Freak) got some positive feedback.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Well WhatCulture pays me to do their assigned articles whereas at MMA Freak I get to do whatever I want. If something comes out absurd at MMA Freak (which I'll admit they do from time to time) it's because I either over thought things or planned the writing process poorly. Though if I recall correctly the top 10 fattest list (from MMA Freak) got some positive feedback.


I am simply trying to give you fair and honest feedback and this article seemed like post baiting where the intention is just to get people to click on a link even if its just to post negative feedback. Problem is everyone gets bored of a troll eventually and that goes to a lot of sites who live off of negatively baiting clicks.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

What I'm trying to do it get feedback from people in general so I can improve. Granted some of the posts were a little brutal but constructive criticism helps. I'm not trying to troll.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> What I'm trying to do it get feedback from people in general so I can improve. Granted some of the posts were a little brutal but constructive criticism helps. I'm not trying to troll.


My intention wasn't to call you a troll if I didn't communicate it properly, I apologize. I just wanted you to understand that the site giving you titles and stuff like that and having you write a statement and elaborate on one that you don't believe for the sake of clicks will eventually turn people off. What I was trying to let you know is that posting these kinds of articles will eventually ensure that people ignore the ones you actually feel passionate about.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> Sorry, but I must have missed something here. What are the special props on winning the open weight class if you are a super monster? If you win it being way lighter, then I can see it as something extra special.


It also doesn't prove that he has "MMA skills" really. It proves he was a beast in grappling, but I thought the point of the article was to highlight legends who were good enough to win in whatever manner but didn't have what we'd called well-rounded MMA skills today at the time. Kerr definitely did not have meaningful striking skills (unless we count GnP) and hated getting hit himself.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> Ok I would like to go ahead and clarify a few things in my own defense. Number one is that WhatCulture (the website I wrote this article for) had this topic as an option which I chose and the original idea was that the early UFC legends only needed basic overall MMA skills and Liddell needed to be included in the list cause he was in the picture for the article topic and the basic skills part was cut from the published article in the intro. Secondly, using that original overall skills theme let me cover every fighter: Mark Kerr had striking but still depended heavily on his grappling, Goodridge had very basic take down defense and heavily depeneded on his striking, Sakuraba was still wrestling based, Coleman was always a ground and pounder, Cro Cop did utilize basic submissions at times but was always a kick boxer, Silva may have those grappling black belts but has only one finish by submission, Tito was and still is wrestling based, same with Shamrock, Royce is a grappler pure and simple, and Liddell utilized his wrestling in his match with Silva and the rest of the time only used wrestling for spawl and brawling and loved to knock people out cause he had knockout power.



I have no idea how you could justify writing that article dude. As someone who obviously loves MMA to write absolute crap like this should be going against every moral fibre you have. I mean what did they pay you to write that? $10? Is it worth destroying your credibility as a writer before you've even started?


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## LizaG (May 12, 2008)

Lets not get *too* harsh here guys, it's a controversial article, maybe not the best Kanto has done. But it's best we keep the criticism constructive and actually *helpful*.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

I've only one bit of advise really. 

Never compromise your own integrity for the sake of others. Basically, don't write shitty articles on terrible topics with even worse agendas just because someone pays you to.


P.S - Why did Ronda Rousey not make the list?


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

CupCake said:


> Lets not get *too* harsh here guys, it's a controversial article, maybe not the best Kanto has done. But it's best we keep the criticism constructive and actually *helpful*.


Its tough love Cupcake, he needs to hear it! Trying to justify writing something like that just doesn't fly. Maybe if he was getting paid a shitload to swallow his pride then I would understand....


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Joabbuac said:


> Yea... Chuck was hard as hell to takedown, hard to keep down, hard to submit, lovely footwork, underrated kicks, power, accuracy and at one point, a great chin.
> 
> But ok, barely any mma skills.
> 
> And Goodridge.. actually the first guy to ever defend a takedown with a sprawl in the UFC.


That's defo not true. Several people had sprawled by the time Goodridge made his insanely awesome debut.

As for this list, I agree about Royce, by UFC 10 I give him very little chance to win. He'd have been beaten by the majority of the guys by that time as they had developed their style a lot by then. Mark Coleman in his early days was pretty terrible. I havent really seen his heights with Pride etc., only early and late UFC career. Outside of that, this list is terrible imo. There are lots of names you can put in here, but not most of these.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> That's defo not true. Several people had sprawled by the time Goodridge made his insanely awesome debut.
> 
> As for this list, I agree about Royce, by UFC 10 I give him very little chance to win. He'd have been beaten by the majority of the guys by that time as they had developed their style a lot by then. Mark Coleman in his early days was pretty terrible. I havent really seen his heights with Pride etc., only early and late UFC career. Outside of that, this list is terrible imo. There are lots of names you can put in here, but not most of these.


People are forgetting it wasn't MMA when it started. It evolved into that. It was the Ultimate Fighting Championship.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> That's defo not true. Several people had sprawled by the time Goodridge made his insanely awesome debut.
> 
> As for this list, I agree about Royce, by UFC 10 I give him very little chance to win. He'd have been beaten by the majority of the guys by that time as they had developed their style a lot by then. Mark Coleman in his early days was pretty terrible. I havent really seen his heights with Pride etc., only early and late UFC career. Outside of that, this list is terrible imo. There are lots of names you can put in here, but not most of these.


Well... it might not be true, but i watched all of the early events one after the other one night and his sprawls at UFC 8 jumped out at me when he started doing it. 

People had stuffed takedowns in the UFC before, but i don't remember seeing any sprawls.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

I watched UFC 8 the other day too and thought "Why don't more people try and reverse the sprawl into crucifix?". I know it was easy for Gary based on his opponent, but it still seems like a nice counter.

Maybe you're right actually. I was thinking of stuffing takedowns with your hips as opposed to all out ground sprawl.

DonRifle, no one's forgetting it, it's just the nature of the thread. We have NOTHING to believe that Royce could have been a great striker. You need the skills presented to judge. I reckon that there are loads of guys very early into UFC that would have beat Royce easily. He was lucky not to get any gigantic HWs either. More so smother wrestlers. I actually think he might even have problems with Scott Ferrozo. Royce would struggle against a HW who wouldnt want to go to the ground with him and who would want to strike (no Akebono here).


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

In no way shape or form would I consider Saku a UFC legend.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> In no way shape or form would I consider Saku a UFC legend.


well, he's a legend and he won a ufc HW tournament and has wins over the 2 original hall of famers.... close enough. let poor kanto have this one.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

His UFC Japan tournament win was the loophole that I used to include him on the list. The same for Wanderlei Silva and Mark Kerr. If they competed in the UFC at one point but made a name for themselves elsewhere then I considered them for the list.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

There is some right things in here but I have some serious disagreements too. 

Probably would have included Brock. 

Some of your choices have to do with preference than lack of MMA talent. Chuck had good wrestling and MMA skills he just preferred to stand so that is what we saw 90% of the time to say he was more dimensional than Gracie is quite absurd.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

americanfighter said:


> There is some right things in here but I have some serious disagreements too.
> 
> Probably would have included Brock.
> 
> Some of your choices have to do with preference than lack of MMA talent. Chuck had good wrestling and MMA skills he just preferred to stand so that is what we saw 90% of the time to say he was more dimensional than Gracie is quite absurd.


Brock just couldnt take a punch well. He still hit hard and had a great ground game (considering he stopped Frank Mir at a very early stage of his career after ages of dominating him on the ground).


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Brock just couldnt take a punch well. .


And it was nothing to do with this chin either...


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Joabbuac said:


> And it was nothing to do with this chin either...


To be fair he must have had a fairly decent chin to take Carwin's shots and be fine in the next round.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> To be fair he must have had a fairly decent chin to take Carwin's shots and be fine in the next round.


Lesnar seems to have a good chin, but in the Carwin fight, basically all of Carwin's GnP shots landed on Lesnar's forearms. Carwin was too stupid to aim and pick his shots and punched himself out.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Voiceless said:


> Lesnar seems to have a good chin, but in the Carwin fight, basically all of Carwin's GnP shots landed on Lesnar's forearms. Carwin was too stupid to aim and pick his shots and punched himself out.


It's easy to play it down by saying Carwin was stupid now but the guy was 12-0 with 12 first round stoppages after all.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> It's easy to play it down by saying Carwin was stupid now but the guy was 12-0 with 12 first round stoppages after all.


Yes, so what¿ Having 12 first round finishes doesn't make overpacing without actually landing damaging shots on a turtled up opponent particularly smarter.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

It's possible that like many fighters Carwin just got greedy. They see an opponent who has been rocked and try go to for the kill. When they do that they don't think clearly.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> It's possible that like many fighters Carwin just got greedy. They see an opponent who has been rocked and try go to for the kill. When they do that they don't think clearly.


That's exactly what happened. That, and with every punch he gassed a little bit more.

Man I miss Shane Carwin in the UFC.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> It's possible that like many fighters Carwin just got greedy. They see an opponent who has been rocked and try go to for the kill. When they do that *they don't think* clearly.


Yes, an not thinking is not smart => stupid. It's something that very unlikely happens to cerebral fighters. I.e. Anderson Silva usually didn't KO his opponents with one shot, but knocked them down having them rocked. He never rushed in like a berzerk to finish, but controlled himself, walked them down and picked his shots. Even Overeem picked his shots when he had Lesnar hurt.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

Voiceless said:


> Yes, an not thinking is not smart => stupid. It's something that very unlikely happens to cerebral fighters. I.e. Anderson Silva usually didn't KO his opponents with one shot, but knocked them down having them rocked. He never rushed in like a berzerk to finish, but controlled himself, walked them down and picked his shots. Even Overeem picked his shots when he had Lesnar hurt.


Although... not so much when he had Browne hurt.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Joabbuac said:


> Although... not so much when he had Browne hurt.


I'd more so blame Overeem's stupidity and chin than his pacing. He seemed pretty good Vs Browne and Bigfoot at keeping composed imo.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

Not saying that is why he lost... but he had Browne very badly hurt with them knees and to finish he was just throwing loads more mostly blocked knees.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

The problem with Overeem is that he gets overconfident when he has someone hurt. Browne and Bigfoot were both cases of that. Had he been more careful he would have won both fights.


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