# ***OFFICIAL*** - Heath Herring vs. Brock Lesnar DISCUSSION THREAD (pre/post)



## T.B. (Jul 4, 2006)

Conduct all of your pre & post-fight discussion on highly advertised heavyweight SHOWDOWN, between "The Texas Crazy Horse" Heath Herring, and the HIGHLY TOUTED Minnesota Golden Gopher wrestling standout & Former WWE wrestler, Brock Lesnar in HERE. ALL other threads concerning this fight *WILL BE MERGED INTO THIS ONE*. 

Thanks guys.

- *T.B.*


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## The Finisher (Mar 23, 2008)

Heath has looked like he has trained hard. I still don't think he'll be able to stop the take down.


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## capt_america (Apr 16, 2007)

i think Lesnar will dominate this one.. but i pray that Herring will land something big..


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## Vic_Rattledeth (Aug 9, 2008)

I don't think Herring will be able to hold Lesnar back and prevent the takedown. After the take down I think it's pretty much going to be ground and pound until K.O
Either that or Herring will rock Lesnar early on, get him on the ground and maybe submit him.


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## Dioxippus (Jun 30, 2008)

I can see Lesnar taking Heath down, but I don't see him finishing him off. Heath could very well submit him as Lesnar doesn't have very much experience there I'd say. I'm hoping for a huge head kick from Heath


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I think Brock will take Heath down. I think Brock will try to GnP him gas by round 2 and Heath will knock him out in the 2nd.


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## T.B. (Jul 4, 2006)

Of the two behemoths, Lesnar will not be the first one to gas out. Remember the UFC All Access showing his workout regimen? Crazy. The guy works out, and KEEPS UP with Sean Sherk! C'mon.... Herring on the other hand, has always shown me that his conditioning isn't the greatest (ESPECIALLY against O'Brien, Nog, and Kongo). If Lesnar keeps top positioning the whole fight, and smothers anything Herring tries on the mat, he'll tire Heath out and dictate every aspect of the contest. 

Lesnar is going to be TOUGH to beat if he picks up a few more BJJ fundamentals.

WHO will take Brock down?! AND keep him there? Shiiiiit, _maybe_ Cain Velasquez. But, that's probably about it as far as HW's go. Sure as HELL isn't going to be Heath Herring. ALSO, who is to say that Cain would be able to hold Brock there for long? I'm not sure he could. Brock is just a BRUTE.


On Lesnar's striking:

His leg strikes still seem a little stiff and telegraphed (based off re-watching the Mir fight....granted he only threw 2, but hear me out!), he doesn't really WHIP them out crisply, while pivoting on the plant leg (like Alves, TyGriff, Hardonk, etc.), but by no means do I think they're not HEAVY as shit. Probably feels like a pro baseball player swinging a thick-ass tree branch into your fibula. I just think if Lesnar mixed crisp technique with ALL that force, he could win fights solely with kicks. I think he has a some CRAZY power in his hands though. His torso and arms are just SO THICK, and he's such a BRUTE, I could see him dropping Herring with a jab (like he did Mir), or just straight putting him DOWN with something HEAVY. Just think about the absolute force behind his upper body strikes.....whoa!

We'll see how it goes, but I see Brock winning via Unanimous Decision, and like I said, if he learns those BJJ fundamentals (like how to NOT leave limbs just hanging out there against a BJJ ace), and a bit more leg kicking technique, he's going to be a TOUGH F'N TEST for ANY UFC heavyweight.


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## pipe (Jun 15, 2008)

I think Carwin could take Lesnar down. I think this one will come down to experience and see Herring taking it via sub


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

I actually have Brock for this one. All of them WWE matches has made him quite the agile acrobat (which really helps him on the ground), but his college wrestling (and later WWE training) has also made him a powerhouse. Of course, I think that not all WWE guys could cut it in MMA (in fact, maybe only Brock can do it), I think that Brock Lesnar is a talented MMA fighter.

But Herring could take this any second with his power... He looks in shape. Maybe he'll surprise me!


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Herring actually looks like he's in pretty good shape. He knows where the fights going to end up. Best chance for Brock is to GNP him and wear him out unless he's learned some submission moves and surprises everyone. His striking looks more crisp, but still a long ways to go. 

Seriously imagine if he were a black belt in Jiu Jitsu. How deadly would he be. He'd simply tear your arm, head, leg, knee, ankle, and ballz off. After rolling with 200lbs technique is always important, but if you have technique and strength it's pretty much game over. Win or lose Brock still has lots of potential. Most fighters can never be the specimen that he is. He walks around 300 and fights at 265. 

As long as Brock watches the head kicks and sticks with his bread and butter he should do fine.


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## kilik (Oct 12, 2007)

Herring looked quite ripped at the weigh ins and motivated. I still see Lesnar winning this fight as Herring vs O'Brien showed that Herring has a weakness against wrestlers, hell O'Brien is only a decent wrestler and he held Herring down for 3 rounds. Even though I know Herring has a good camp of trainers he has put together I still see Lesnar taking him down and pounding him out. I dont think Herring submission skills are good enough to be able to survive like Mir did.


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## ToeZup (Jan 7, 2008)

I'm sooooo looking forward to this fight. I really want to see how far Brock has come. This will do a lot of damage to Heath's climb up the ladder if he looses.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

despite looking in good shape....i see herring gassing BADLY in this fight....

if lesnar can take him down and control him, herring is going to be looking to scramble up constantly in order to not let lesnar steal a round....that is going to get exhausting for herring. add in some short, tight, technical ground strikes by lesnar, and by the round 3....herring will barely be able to punch

i just hope lesnar has taken some lessons from sherk and learned it's all about control....and not posture recklessly looking to finish...if he's learned that, he'll win.

but ONE reckless move from the top, herring could scramble or sweep, end up on top, and put lesnar in some unfamiliar positions and get sub'd


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

I don't think Herring will be able to keep up with Brock. That said, I expect he knows this and may come out guns blazing. Lesnar would do well to make Herring move around for a few minutes and slowly pick up the pace. Herring would eventually gas and Lesnar would pick him apart. Honestly, it would be nice to see Lesnar take him down and move him to the fence. We shall see.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

I gotta go with Brock, I think it will be a good fight.


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## Harbinger (Mar 3, 2007)

I'm picking Brock for this fight. If Herring is to win he is going to have to pull something out early...headkick, submission, flying gogoplata if he is going to win it. It's the same thing I said about Lesnar's last fight with Mir. If Mir is going to win he's going to have to submit him early...and he did. So IMO if Herring is going to win he'll have to do it in the first round. Anyone who doubts Lesnar's cardio is a fool and the longer the fight goes the more it turns in Brocks favor. The guy is a machine and has all the potential to be "The next big thing" in MMA.


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

No_Mercy said:


> Herring actually looks like he's in pretty good shape *for Herring*.
> 
> Seriously imagine if he were a black belt in Jiu Jitsu.


Fixed. I was thinking the same thing myself about Lesnar and Jitz, god forbid he becomes a jitz savant because we would see some truly gruesome shit in the cage.



Aaronyman said:


> i just hope lesnar has taken some lessons from sherk and learned it's all about control....and not posture recklessly looking to finish...if he's learned that, he'll win.


That's an excellent point, but Lesnar can get away with it more than most. His base is insane, his instincts on top are great and his body gives him some leverage and advantage when he's on top. When he is in guard he really smothers his opponents just by how wide he is and heavy which adds another tool to his ability to maintain his base in the top. Like you said, if he can relax more and think through his gameplan when he's on top he would really be taking a GIANT step forward. I put 10,000 on Lesnar because his takedowns are impossible to stop and his top control is ridiculous. Add in those 5 pound mallets at the end of his wrists and it's gonna be ugly for Herring unless he catches him shooting.


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> I think Brock will take Heath down. I think Brock will try to GnP him gas by round 2 and Heath will knock him out in the 2nd.


I agree in the first part. Brock will take Herring down. He will try to GnP him. Now it comes to wether Brock manages to hurt Heath enough to stop the fight or Heath defends himself well. If he manages to escape the first round alive and well, he'll probably take the fight.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

Lesnar may gas, being in a fight is a lot different to training, but I mean look at how he trains.

I actually think Heath will be exhausted from attempting to stop takedowns, scramble for position and working from the bottom by the 2nd and will get finished.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

Herring by flying knee in the first 30 seconds!!!!!!!!!!


Just joking guys. But I do think after debating it for a while that Herring will win by T/KO in the 2nd round. 

I have a question though, I was listening to a mma radio show and they brought up what I thought was a good point and that is if Brock loses do you think instead of getting cut he might just quit? One reason why they brought it up is because before Brock came into MMA and just got out of the WWE he tried out for the Minnesota Vikings and the Vikings wanted him to go to NFL Europe to get a little more experience and he just walked away.

Edit: here is the show I listened to, http://mmarated.com/articles/articl...l;jsessionid=0A743D7E3D2AEC8C195C1518C6396679

But they were wrong Brock got cut for injuries he didn't walk away.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

alright time for Lesnar to prove he is overrated and should go back to the WWE.


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## jmneo (Jan 16, 2008)

hes gonna donkey kong my head lol


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

Really looking to see how this plays out. Rogan just used all of his cliches on Lesnar.

Herring entrances are never bad


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## capt_america (Apr 16, 2007)

if Lesnar cant finish Herring in the first round then its all Herring..


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## jmneo (Jan 16, 2008)

brock gonna smash herring...over in under a min


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## T.B. (Jul 4, 2006)

Brock has some SICK power...I told you guys! 

He knocked Heath on his ASS & made him roll backwards! With *ONE* shot. 

Plus, see that huge takedown? No sweat.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

Big Dan ruins shit again. WTF : | Lesnar is smurfing huge, he's engulfing Herring


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## Gudster (Aug 4, 2007)

Wow, Lesnar is an animal. And has hands man..


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## capt_america (Apr 16, 2007)

Terry77 said:


> Big Dan ruins shit again. WTF : |


agreed..he pokes herring before the fight.. :confused05:


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Ugh this fight sucks, I hate Brock.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

I can't believe how huge Lesnar is, this shit is ridiculous.


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## deanmzi (Oct 15, 2006)

Brock looks like he needs more experience - he should be able to finish this


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## T.B. (Jul 4, 2006)

See...if The BEAST had any BJJ fundamentals, this shit would've been over.

But, Herring was absolutely smothered on the mat...


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Lesnar really didn't do anything besides the one punch and the TD. He just held on the whole round.


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## semajnolon (Aug 10, 2008)

*how it lookin*

brock look good or herring lookin bad?


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## The Finisher (Mar 23, 2008)

semajnolon said:


> brock look good or herring lookin bad?


Brock is tooling Heath. It really is not even funny.

He's beasten right now!


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

T.B. said:


> See...if The BEAST had any BJJ fundamentals, this shit would've been over.
> 
> But, Herring was absolutely smothered on the mat...


Lesnar can just control people with his size and wrestling, his hand is 3/4 as big as Herring's head


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## semajnolon (Aug 10, 2008)

*no ppv*

gonna have to settle for the replay fellas thanks for the updates though


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## Prone_to_rage (Jan 2, 2007)

lesnar just showin his amazing strength by throwing heath to the ground man lesnar neeeds to work on his jitz and he has a nice looking future


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## kilik (Oct 12, 2007)

Herring is getting dominated. Brock is too strong.


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## deanmzi (Oct 15, 2006)

Terry77 said:


> I can't believe how huge Lesnar is, this shit is ridiculous.


maybe there should be a super heavy division


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## T.B. (Jul 4, 2006)

Heath is HURT and looks a BIT tired, and Lesnar doesn't seem tired at all. He's not FRESH, but he's not on E.


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## Alkhir (Mar 3, 2008)

Lay and pray festival....


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## Gudster (Aug 4, 2007)

Seriously give Lesnar two or three years and man.. 

I don't want to say it, but this is a guy in his THIRD MMA fight handling Heath Fuckin Herring, and he could be top 10 if given that time.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

deanmzi said:


> maybe there should be a super heavy division


Lesnar still cuts to 265 though, Heath's heart is awesome though


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Lesnar really hasn't done anything this whole fight. If I put you in a tight waist like Lesnar had on Herring this whole time then I could hold you down for 15 minutes too. He hasn't show any improvement at all. He didnt go for any subs or try to show off improved standup. He just works the lay and pray.


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## The Finisher (Mar 23, 2008)

Like I said before, Brock Lesnar is a contender. Get ready UFC.


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## jmneo (Jan 16, 2008)

Brock needs lots of work...But hes so strong he would give any heavyweith in the ufc a good fight


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## jmneo (Jan 16, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> Lesnar really hasn't done anything this whole fight. If I put you in a tight waist like Lesnar had on Herring this whole time then I could hold you down for 15 minutes too. He hasn't show any improvement at all. He didnt go for any subs or try to show off improved standup. He just works the lay and pray.


So owning herring is something you could do?


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## Alkhir (Mar 3, 2008)

Brock is acting like a dick... Not very respectful to Herring...


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

Heavyweight Sean Sherk


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## kilik (Oct 12, 2007)

I know what your saying mjbish but thats domination from the start of the fight. Lesnar has potential, losing to Mir helped him but his nuts are going to be hugged a bit to much from now on by trolls.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

jmneo said:


> So owning herring is something you could do?


I didnt say I could own him but Lesnar didn't do anything. He held on with a tight waist, which is incredibly hard to get out of and barely threw punches on the ground. If he was so improved why didnt he try to improve his position and get mount or something and try for subs?


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## Where'stheCrow? (Nov 28, 2007)

Not too impressed with Brock's class, or lack thereof.


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## the ultimate (Mar 5, 2007)

Brock wins 30-26 x3 :thumb02:


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## Gudster (Aug 4, 2007)

30-26.

Nuff said man. Remember his THIRD EVER MMA fight...


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## daitrong (May 27, 2007)

jmneo said:


> So owning herring is something you could do?


this is such as ridiculous rebuttal. Lesner is a professional fighter, it is his job to improve his overall fighting style. Saying " oh so you could do it?" says nothing about Lesner's ability to be a top 10 heavyweight...and sounds as lame as your momma jokes. If all he's doing is the lay and pray tactic or humping herring for 15 minutes... he's got a long way to becoming 10 ten


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## deanmzi (Oct 15, 2006)

this ain't the WWE


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## ezcw (May 9, 2007)

I don't think laying on him 15mins was Lesnar's intention. He got full mount repeatedly, but like with Kongo, Herring gave up his back purposefully whenever he could, since you can't get punched in the back of the head, and neither Lesnar nor Kongo has the ground game to work subs. Lesnar would have worked for a GnP finish but herring kept giving him the back.

Yeah, sucks that Lesnar couldn't do anything with it, but he worked heath over with everything he was given.


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

He did mount Herring a few times. I dunno why people are complaining. Is he really any different than Randy was against Sylvia? They both dropped their opponents early on and ended up outwrestling them throughout the contests.

It's Brocks third MMA fight and he was up against a solid veteran in Herring, he had a good gameplan.

Herring is hard to beat down on the ground, even Fedor couldn't really finish him. Herring lost that fight due to a cut.

Give Brock a break here.


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

Brock Lesnar is garbage. Sitting on top of someone for 3 rounds cause you have no submission skills is pathetic. I'm not watching anymore PPV's with this scrub fighting. He ranks up there with Bob Sapp, and Kimbo imo as being nothing but talentless gimmics for marketing purposes.


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## Superman55 (May 3, 2007)

Oh man, can't wait till Lesnar fights Nogiera, and gets his face ripped off.

Oh btw, Herring's face against Fedor looked a lot worse than against Lesnar.


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## footodors (Aug 26, 2007)

Never saw lesnar fight but what a jackoff. He thinks he's still in WWE.
Now I want someone to smash his face!!


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## Uchi (Oct 15, 2006)

Lesnar should've finished this along time ago. Still needs more experience.

Herring..i'm not sure what i can say. Really disappointed with his performance. I wasn't impressed with him against Kongo, was hoping he'd look better in this fight.


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## jmneo (Jan 16, 2008)

daitrong said:


> this is such as ridiculous rebuttal. Lesner is a professional fighter, it is his job to improve his overall fighting style. Saying " oh so you could do it?" says nothing about Lesner's ability to be a top 10 heavyweight...and sounds as lame as your momma jokes. If all he's doing is the lay and pray tactic or humping herring for 15 minutes... he's got a long way to becoming 10 ten


 did you not read his post? he said he could hold him down for 15 min.... yeah he needs lots of work but hes def a top ten in the ufc p4p


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## Hopperman (Oct 15, 2006)

BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Held on to Herring and when he did impove his position he didnt do anything with it. 

Also Brock acted like a ******* dick after the fight,very disrespectful


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## kilik (Oct 12, 2007)

McCain said:


> Completely DOMINATED.
> 
> 
> Lesnar > fedor


Now this is one bad thing about Lesnar winning. "McCain" cant you ever stop trolling.


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

bmo37 said:


> Brock Lesnar is garbage. Sitting on top of someone for 3 rounds cause you have no submission skills is pathetic. I'm not watching anymore PPV's with this scrub fighting. He ranks up there with Bob Sapp, and Kimbo imo as being nothing but talentless gimmics for marketing purposes.


Except Brock unlike Kimbo, is fighting legit opponents. He fought a smart fight. Herring isn't an easy guy to finish on the ground. Lesnar gave it all he had and he did pretty good for it only being his third MMA fight. Alot of people thought Herring was going to submit him. That didn't happen.


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## Terry77 (Jan 5, 2007)

The UFC needs to bring in Kurt Angle now


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## gm2685 (Aug 27, 2006)

footodors said:


> Never saw lesnar fight but what a jackoff. He thinks he's still in WWE.
> Now I want someone to smash his face!!


Enough so to pay to watch him get his face smashed? :thumb02:


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

jmneo said:


> did you not read his post? he said he could hold him down for 15 min.... yeah he needs lots of work but hes def a top ten in the ufc p4p


You didnt read my post. I said if I put someone in a tight waist I could hold them down for 15 minutes. Obviously it would have to be someone my size. Let's use some common sense.


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## Incantation (Nov 18, 2007)

Man, no class huh? I mean, he reminds me of a high school bully who'd kick your ass and then point and laugh at you. Asshole.


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## Brutus (May 27, 2007)

Well wow im in shock i did not really believe Herring could dominate Herring like that :S Call him boring but he just dominated a GREAT heavyweight fighter. People need to look at this as a sport not as a tv-show with amazing endings and drama. It was a old school dominating victory for Brock and i got to give him probs, im guessing he gets Kongo next.


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## Benge (Mar 8, 2008)

Brock, what a humble guy, right..? Right?! 

Can you imagine if he were to become the HW champion? Lose the WWE crap for your own sake. :wink01:


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

Wow, one fight and the douchebag trolls come tumbling in. I'm disappointed with Lesnar's antics after the fight, but I think it might have something to do with the amount of disrespect he's been getting from the community not that that is any kind of excuse for showing so little class towards Herring. On the fight side, I'm very happy with his win but I hope he takes some time to study the hell out of the tape because he missed LITERALLY dozens of opportunities to finish the fight. He also did nothing when he had full mount a few times, the back more than a few times, and an appendage a few times. I think he was not physically able to perform a few subs because of the size of these two fighters but he should have finished the fight much earlier. I'm very happy with what I saw of his stand up and I'm glad to see his jaw is not glass although we still don't know if it's steel. HUGE win for Brock and I hope his antics aside he starts to get a little more respect around here. Herring, all I can say is wow that dude is tough as effin nails. His corner should be shot for not throwing in the towel. Not necessarily a great fight, but a great fight for the UFC HW division because of it's implications.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

daitrong said:


> he's got a long way to becoming 10 ten


of course he does, it was his third fight. He did what he needed to do to win, and he dominated a guy that has had 30 fights. It was absolute domination, say what you guys want, but in the end Brock left Herring crying against the fence. Obviously he's not fighting Nog yet, but now we know, he's for real and the heavyweights better be ready. And of course he was cocky, the large majority of people were saying he stood no chance in mma.


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## jmneo (Jan 16, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> You didnt read my post. I said if I put someone in a tight waist I could hold them down for 15 minutes. Obviously it would have to be someone my size. Let's use some common sense.


agreed but you gotta do something to get them down...they wont just lay down for you and herring is no joke


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## chrisdpucci (May 27, 2007)

Well, Brock won fair and square but I'll never be a fan of his simply because he has no class or respect for other fighters. :thumbsdown:


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## BWoods (Apr 8, 2007)

I really don't get what you guys are crying over about Lesnar "laying" all over Herring. Dude that's control, that's dominating. He didn't clinch and hug as hard as he could ala Jake O'Brian. He used a smart gameplan and held his position, advancing whenever he could. Yeah he was laying on Heath when he got full mount, what, like 4 times? 

Even on the feet, Brock delivered more damage.

Even more impressive was that he was much more composed and tactical with his attack in this fight than against Frank Murr (Mir.) I think the only reason why he wasn't able to finish the fight was because Heath is a VERY TOUGH fighter to finish. Dude is just a survivor. 

So get off Brock's back already.


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

I wouldn't complain if this was a high school wrestling match, but its not stand them up and strike otherwise end the fight with strikes on the ground or submit ur opponent


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## sicc (Mar 4, 2007)

I had 7500 on Lesnar. I knew after watching the way he threw Mir the around that he would have no problem beating Herring. Lesnar is for real, even if it's only due to his massive size, he is for real.

Imagine if Lesnar had 5-10 years MMA experiance, he's be unstoppable.


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## Zarlok (Jul 8, 2008)

What ? Brock just lay and prayed him?

Is that why Herring's face looked like he tried to french kiss a lawn mower?


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

I hate on these type of guys simply cause I dont feel they've earned the right to be here just yet, they are more gimmicks than anything. it's obvious their not true mma fighters only one trick ponies. Any huge guy can overwhelm another smaller man and sometimes it works, u gotta play the lottery if u wanna win the money.


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## MullaN (Feb 3, 2007)

Come on guys Lesnar was just acting like a dick to work his heel angle...


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## BWoods (Apr 8, 2007)

bmo37 said:


> I wouldn't complain if this was a high school wrestling match, but its not stand them up and strike otherwise end the fight with strikes on the ground or submit ur opponent


There's no reason to stand them up when Brock is doing damage and improving his position. Again dude was always working, why punish him for winning in a way that you find boring.


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

Zarlok said:


> What ? Brock just lay and prayed him?
> 
> Is that why Herring's face looked like he tried to french kiss a lawn mower?


got caught with the opening haymaker from lesnar


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

BWoods said:


> There's no reason to stand them up when Brock is doing damage and improving his position. Again dude was always working, why punish him for winning in a way that you find boring.


this is where i have a difference of opinion, I didn't feel like he was really doing any damage other than sitting on top of him in an attempt to control the fighter and not inflict damage


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## Javelin (Dec 28, 2007)

bmo37 said:


> this is where i have a difference of opinion, I didn't feel like he was really doing any damage other than sitting on top of him in an attempt to control the fighter and not inflict damage


Sitting on top of him *is *complete control and domination. Give the man some credit, he just layed out a veteran HW in Heath Herring (who's fought some of the best of the best) for 3 whole rounds.


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## daitrong (May 27, 2007)

jmneo said:


> yeah he needs lots of work but hes def a top ten in the ufc p4p


rightttttttttt...he wins one fight in a mediocre fashion and he automatically top 10 p4p in the UFC... 

so he belongs up there with GSP, BJ Penn, Nog, Mir, Franklin, Anderson silva, hughes... etc


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

I give him credit for throwing a good haymaker and landing, bull charging heath and sitting on his back for 3 rounds. He did do some smart knees give him credit for that. He was smart using his size advantage but thats all I'll give him.


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## jmneo (Jan 16, 2008)

daitrong said:


> rightttttttttt...he wins one fight in a mediocre fashion and he automatically top 10 p4p in the UFC...
> 
> so he belongs up there with GSP, BJ Penn, Nog, Mir, Franklin, Anderson silva, hughes... etc


did you watch the mir fight? agreed brock did hit the back of his head but it wold have been over if they hadnt been made to stand. and this wasn't mediocre he just dominated herring tonight


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## semajnolon (Aug 10, 2008)

*enough*

many athletes have tried to venture out from there so called primary sport jordan for examle they were all given crap about it now it seems that the only thing anybody has to say about lesnar is wwe this and that. herring is no slouch and could have lesnar put on a better show yes but this aint the wwe this is an actual fight so give the guy a little credit for actually doin well in a sport that most people have to train years for and dont forget he was an top level collegiate wrestler much like randy couture he is no where world class mma but given time and the right camp it will be interesting to see what happens


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## bcbigdawg (Oct 15, 2006)

bmo37 said:


> got caught with the opening haymaker from lesnar


That was no haymaker dude.....that was a well placed punchers punch....straight and crisp, eyes wide open, right on target. I think that he needs to learn some tactics and skills for finishing from the dominant positions he had. He looked really good for a fighter with a 2-1 record. I look forward to seeing him fight again....KONGO?


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## Benge (Mar 8, 2008)

Brock is big and strong, there's no denying that. He is capable of overpowering and controlling a lot of heavyweights out there. I had this opinion after his Mir fight and I continue to stand by it, he needs to learn MMA, this is NOT just wrestling. I am personally not interested in having a lay and pray champion.


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## BrianRClover (Jan 4, 2008)

Brock looked awesome... everyone is right. He needs more tools and could have finished that fight, but that was Heath Herring, one of the toughest guys in MMA to stop...
WAR BROCK!!!!!!!

And those of you still hating. Get over yourselves, cause Brock is for real!


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

WAR the Brock-oly!

I think Lesnar has some fun fun fun fights ahead of him. He'd be crushed against Werdum, Gonzo or Nog though. As of now...


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## Zender (Dec 15, 2006)

That was one of the worst fights I've seen in recent times. On numerous occasions he could have finished it but chose not to. You'd think after training with a decent BJJ guy he'd remember some sort of sub, no doubt he was only interested in defence. Oh & yeah, he's big & strong...... so would most people that's been battering steroids for god knows how many years.

Also, I honestly thought the idiotic side of him was just smack talk to hype the fights but he showed he is actually a muppet of a very high order. He's not the kind of bully we need in the sport & the sooner he's continuously subbed right down into EliteXC the better.


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

I expected Brock to Win this, and he did, I was surprised Herring lasted the whole fight.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Brock is a interesting prospect but to be honest I wasn't that impressed.

His striking is improved but atm he is a wrestler with heavy hands.

He is IMO way behind Cain Velasquez who is a talented grappler and who has more refined stand up.

I thought it was an ok win but I wasn't hugely impressed this win reminded me alot of Jake O'brien's win over Herring.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

raymel1 said:


> I expected Brock to Win this, and he did, I was surprised Herring lasted the whole fight.


Its hard to finish someone when all you do is hold on to them and stay on the side of them the whole time. They looked like Siamese twins with Lesnar plastered to Herrings side. If he tried to work a sub or maybe some GnP he might have had a chance of finishing him.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> Brock is a interesting prospect but to be honest I wasn't that impressed.
> 
> His striking is improved but atm he is a wrestler with heavy hands.
> 
> ...


I agree, and I didn't really like his post fight stuff either.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Yea the Legend I was actually pretty upset about that.

If you are going to taunt your opponent you should have at least finished them.

And also what the hell was with the push after the bell IMO that is a very cheap thing to do.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Heath has a tough time dealing with wrestlers. Expected Brock to win, but yah...definitely should learn some class. Think he was just like a kid excited to win for the first time.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

I hate his arrogance, but it was an impressive performance. He manhandled Heath, and I think it was smart that he didn't mess around with the BJJ game by sticking to side control. I still want to see him fight Shane Carwin though, I think that would be an absolutely titanic war.


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## prolyfic (Apr 22, 2007)

First off I know there are a lot of true hardcore MMA fans and followers here but seriously...cry me a freakin river with your why didn't he finish and lay and pray garbage:sarcastic01:. Every time Brock hit him he felt it, why didn't brck go for submissions...because he is not that kind of fighter, that would have been a mistake and then you would all be in here saying "I told you brock is not ready". What other up and coming MMA fighter would you be this critical of...no one. Brock is not nearly as good as he can and will be and he just straight up whipped Heath's ass. LAY AND PRAY tell that to Heath's face and ribs. 

As far as his antics after the fight...SO WHAT thats just Brock enjoying his victory:happy03:,besides its good as far as entertainment goes, thats why a lot of fighters have their finishing routine. No worse than BJ Penn taking Sherk's blood off his face.

Once again stop bitchin about a wrestler actually wrestling...and mounting...and mounting again...and again...lmao "lay and pray"...hang yourself haters:sarcastic02:


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## RWMenace (Aug 10, 2008)

Brock completely dominated this fight. raise01:

Congrats Brock.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

prolyfic said:


> First off I know there are a lot of true hardcore MMA fans and followers here but seriously...cry me a freakin river with your why didn't he finish and lay and pray garbage:sarcastic01:. Every time Brock hit him he felt it, why didn't brck go for submissions...because he is not that kind of fighter, that would have been a mistake and then you would all be in here saying "I told you brock is not ready". What other up and coming MMA fighter would you be this critical of...no one. Brock is not nearly as good as he can and will be and he just straight up whipped Heath's ass. LAY AND PRAY tell that to Heath's face and ribs.
> 
> As far as his antics after the fight...SO WHAT thats just Brock enjoying his victory:happy03:,besides its good as far as entertainment goes, thats why a lot of fighters have their finishing routine. No worse than BJ Penn taking Sherk's blood off his face.
> 
> Once again stop bitchin about a wrestler actually wrestling...and mounting...and mounting again...and again...lmao "lay and pray"...hang yourself haters:sarcastic02:


So people should kill themselves because they weren't blown away by his performance? Don't you think that's a little extreme, bud?


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## doburg717 (Apr 25, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> Its hard to finish someone when all you do is hold on to them and stay on the side of them the whole time. They looked like Siamese twins with Lesnar plastered to Herrings side. If he tried to work a sub or maybe some GnP he might have had a chance of finishing him.


he was probably reacting to his last performance and didnt want to rush into a situation where he could get caught and became over cautious, i was extremely frustrated watching him not finish herring when he had the oppurtunity but i wanted him to win and he did and thats the most important thing for him atm


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

doburg717 said:


> he was probably reacting to his last performance and didnt want to rush into a situation where he could get caught and became over cautious, i was extremely frustrated watching him not finish herring when he had the oppurtunity but i wanted him to win and he did and thats the most important thing for him atm


He spent at least 13 out of the 15 minutes of the fight plastered to herring's side. I think he could have done a little bit more then that.


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## prolyfic (Apr 22, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> So people should kill themselves because they weren't blown away by his performance? Don't you think that's a little extreme, bud?


Obviously not meant literally. Just find it odd how some of the longer MMA followers are acting as though Brock didnt completely work over Heath. Heath was moving and attempting to change positions and Brock forced him back to where he wanted him, that is not laying on someone. They don't like Brock fine but don't down play his performance, especially for someone only training mma for 2 years and only had 2 fights in MMA going into this one.

Again sorry about the kill yourselves comment.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> Yea the Legend I was actually pretty upset about that.
> 
> If you are going to taunt your opponent you should have at least finished them.
> 
> And also what the hell was with the push after the bell IMO that is a very cheap thing to do.


I didn't catch the push, I only saw Lesnar do the rope thing because my friends and family scream at the TV.


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

Zender said:


> That was one of the worst fights I've seen in recent times. Oh & yeah, he's big & strong...... so would most people that's been battering steroids for god knows how many years.


It wasn't the best jitz fight for sure, but it was a great wrestling fight. As for your moronic statement about steroids, he has NEVER tested positive for steroids, and he has been tested a LOT. Maybe get something to back you up before you go saying stupid shit.



bbjd7 said:


> If you are going to taunt your opponent you should have at least finished them. And also what the hell was with the push after the bell IMO that is a very cheap thing to do.


You really shouldn't be taunting your opponents period. They both seemed pretty respectful leading into the fight, I'm not sure where that crap came from. I know Herring was doing a good bit of jaw jacking during the fight, but there really is no place for that kind of poor sportsmanship on Brocks part. I'm kind of surprised the ref didn't warn him for that.



mjbish23 said:


> Its hard to finish someone when all you do is hold on to them and stay on the side of them the whole time. They looked like Siamese twins with Lesnar plastered to Herrings side. If he tried to work a sub or maybe some GnP he might have had a chance of finishing him.


He's a *wrestler* body control is his game. After the mistake he made in the Murr fight it was pretty obvious he was trying to hard to not make any mistakes and he gave up a LOT of opportunities because of it. We get it, you hate Lesnar, please move on already.



Fedor>all said:


> I hate his arrogance, but it was an impressive performance. He manhandled Heath, and I think it was smart that he didn't mess around with the BJJ game by sticking to side control. I still want to see him fight Shane Carwin though, I think that would be an absolutely titanic war.


As usual you got it right. It would have been a mistake for him to go for submissions that didn't come natural to him. If he's got to really think it through during the fight that is going to cost him. When he gets more experience we will see him go for some subs, but for now he just needs to study the hell out of this fight tape because there is a LOT for him to learn from it. Not sure who I want to see him fight next.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

prolyfic said:


> Obviously not meant literally. Just find it odd how some of the longer MMA followers are acting as though Brock didnt completely work over Heath. Heath was moving and attempting to change positions and Brock forced him back to where he wanted him, that is not laying on someone. They don't like Brock fine but don't down play his performance, especially for someone only training mma for 2 years and only had 2 fights in MMA going into this one.
> 
> Again sorry about the kill yourselves comment.


I get what you're saying man, people can be ignorant but suggesting suicide was a bit harsh IMO. It was a great win for Brock, but I would have respected it more had he been a bit more humble, you know?


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

Fedor>all said:


> I get what you're saying man, people can be ignorant but suggesting suicide was a bit harsh IMO. It was a great win for Brock, but I would have respected it more had he been a bit more humble, you know?


Totally agree.
Im no Brock fan, I put my last two bits on Herring and lost it... but I give credit to Brock for the win.
He got the great first punch and controlled Herring the entire time.
It wasnt the most entertaining fight, but give the guy some props for getting the win against a veteran.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

cplmac said:


> He's a *wrestler* body control is his game. After the mistake he made in the Murr fight it was pretty obvious he was trying to hard to not make any mistakes and he gave up a LOT of opportunities because of it. We get it, you hate Lesnar, please move on already.


There's a difference between playing it safe, trying not to make mistakes and doing nothing but riding your opponent out for 15 minutes. Lesnar rode him out for 15 minutes. He didn't show any improved skills at all. He barely worked GnP.


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## jeremy202 (Feb 3, 2008)

Just watched it, that was amazing.Brock destroyed heath.The right hand looked like the hardest punch I've ever seen.His punches looked way more fluid than in the mir fight.That was impressive wrestling too.btw, was that sean sherk in his corner?


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Brock did well but honestly this fight was alot like Herring's last fight except Lesnar has better control than Kongo.

Herring's TDD is bad it always has been.

Now I was impressed that Brock didn't just blow his load in the first round but I was disappointed that he still hasn't learned a solid GnP attack.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

mjbish23 said:


> There's a difference between playing it safe, trying not to make mistakes and doing nothing but riding your opponent out for 15 minutes. Lesnar rode him out for 15 minutes. He didn't show any improved skills at all. He barely worked GnP.


In all fairness, I didnt expect much of anything else from him. This is what Herring should have been expecting too.
This is Lesnars 3rd outing as a pro, I dont expect much from him.
I was disappointed that Herring couldnt counter him


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

attention said:


> In all fairness, I didnt expect much of anything else from him. This is what Herring should have been expecting too.
> This is Lesnars 3rd outing as a pro, I dont expect much from him.
> I was disappointed that Herring couldnt counter him


Herring sucks against wrestlers and has terrible TDD, everyone knows that. Lesnar talked about how he had been putting in work and getting so much better but he didn't show any new skills. He showed he can wrestle, which we already know, but he didn't show anything new. I'll give him props for those knees but he didn't do much else.


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

mjbish23 said:


> There's a difference between playing it safe, trying not to make mistakes and doing nothing but riding your opponent out for 15 minutes. Lesnar rode him out for 15 minutes. He didn't show any improved skills at all. He barely worked GnP.


You have to admit he did more than nothing. Now granted he didn't do anywhere near as much as an experienced fighter would have given all the chances that were there, but he did throw some viscous knees on the ground and in the clinch. He looked confused alot of the time he had control on the ground like he couldn't figure out exactly what he should do, this will change with experience and with a good long look at the tape. I totally disagree that he didn't work GnP, that's about all he did on the ground with knees hammerfists and a couple of elbows. He didn't go gorilla like he did with Mir and honestly I think that's the biggest step in the right direction that he has made, he made a conscious effort to slow down and not just react instinctually. He slowed down way to much but at least it showed that he was thinking in the cage as opposed to just reacting. I definitely think he showed some improved skills, particularly in the stand up. Not just that he landed that huge right hand in the beginning but he displayed some clinch work, and showed that his striking mechanics have come a long way. He still hasn't showed a lot with his chin but he showed enough that we know he's not going to go to sleep with a less than strong punch.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

mjbish23 said:


> Herring sucks against wrestlers and has terrible TDD, everyone knows that. Lesnar talked about how he had been putting in work and getting so much better but he didn't show any new skills. He showed he can wrestle, which we already know, but he didn't show anything new. I'll give him props for those knees but he didn't do much else.


Well, i was impressed on his composure... he didnt go all ape shite when he got side control.
It seemed his primary goal was to maintain control and get his shots in when opportunities presented themselves.
All in all, the fight lived up to my expectations.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

cplmac said:


> You have to admit he did more than nothing. Now granted he didn't do anywhere near as much as an experienced fighter would have given all the chances that were there, but he did throw some viscous knees on the ground and in the clinch. He looked confused alot of the time he had control on the ground like he couldn't figure out exactly what he should do, this will change with experience and with a good long look at the tape. I totally disagree that he didn't work GnP, that's about all he did on the ground with knees hammerfists and a couple of elbows. He didn't go gorilla like he did with Mir and honestly I think that's the biggest step in the right direction that he has made, he made a conscious effort to slow down and not just react instinctually. He slowed down way to much but at least it showed that he was thinking in the cage as opposed to just reacting. I definitely think he showed some improved skills, particularly in the stand up. Not just that he landed that huge right hand in the beginning but he displayed some clinch work, and showed that his striking mechanics have come a long way. He still hasn't showed a lot with his chin but he showed enough that we know he's not going to go to sleep with a less than strong punch.


He did have some nice knees when he was in side control but that was the most damage he did with his GnP. He really didn't throw a lot of hammerfists or elbows or punches. He threw a few but nowhere near as many as he could have.

He did show some control, which is an improvement. I'll admit that.

He didn't improve that much in his standup tho. He threw that one good punch but that was the extent of his standup skills. He had a good clinch against the cage but i'm sure he already knew that from wrestling, especially being a HW since they work a lot of clinches and throws in wrestling matches.



attention said:


> Well, i was impressed on his composure... he didnt go all ape shite when he got side control.
> It seemed his primary goal was to maintain control and get his shots in when opportunities presented themselves.
> All in all, the fight lived up to my expectations.


Like I said up a paragraph, I was impressed how he was able to keep his composure and not panic or whatever and get sloppy. He did it a little when he first connected with the punch but then it looked like he stopped and thought for a second and calmed down. I'll give him that, his composure has improved.


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## snakerattle79 (Feb 6, 2008)

I cant really figure out the game of Herring although ive seen much of his fights, he have this ton of experience kinda thing, but have really a terrible Techniques and havent really imrpoved his game, its only his conditioning that have improved, I mean Lesnar was just hanging out,showing no threat of any submissions or really technique to finish off Herring but Herring for some reason doesnt have anything to turn that fight around, IMO any HWs who have any kind of techincal plan to either Stand up strikes or Submissions can easily beat Lesnar on that fight, anyway I hope they can put Kongo vs Lesnar next, cause it seems confidence has got into him when he arrogantly push Herring after that 1st round, I hope Kongo can connect a punch on Lesnar for the first time in Lesnar career..the antics of Lesnar during and after that fight really arent necessary, MMA isnt WWE and he should know that


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

Kongo wouldnt take that punch from Brock any better than Herring did.


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## Tango87 (Oct 17, 2006)

*Has Lesnar even heard of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?*

Wow, is it me or was everyone else frustrated with Lesnars stupidity on the ground... It was quite possibly the worst display of a ground game I have ever seen... He would get Herring's back, pass it and go to side control like an idiot... It;s like he was at the 2 yard line, 1st and goal and he decides to kick a field goal. This guy SERIOUSLY needs to take a basic BJJ class.

Plus I agree with the other thread, he is a douchebag and showed little class tonight. Put him against Gabriel Gonzaga and I think the outcome would be a little different.


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## spaulding91 (Sep 23, 2007)

i was screaming at the tv "GET YOUR HOOKS IN!!!!!!" but he almost looked to big to do that. he's such a giant guy it almost looked like it wasnt possible. its gotta be though.....right??


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## BlueCriminal (Mar 21, 2007)

I just figured he didn't want to do it because he's probably much more comfortable holding the guy in a turtle position or on his back -- both common positions in wrestling. If he sunk the hooks in, and rolled to his back there would probably be a good chance Heath would have been able to roll around and be in Brock's full guard which is probably what he wanted to avoid.


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## Tango87 (Oct 17, 2006)

spaulding91 said:


> i was screaming at the tv "GET YOUR HOOKS IN!!!!!!" but he almost looked to big to do that. he's such a giant guy it almost looked like it wasnt possible. its gotta be though.....right??


Bro I was at the bar screaming the same thing!!!! I was like, "Get your hooks in you big fuckin idiot! God dAmn Baby Huey!!!" It was pathetic. Yeah it's possible for him to get them in, the idiot just didn't try. If I was his BJJ coach I would be embarrassed. It seems like he just get's too excited and wants to pivot and spin around his opponent's back as if he was ina freestyle wrestling match.

He undeniably has some major power (BTW his punching technique was awful, even in that first power punch he landed). If he was to get some good training he could be unstoppable... But for now he's just a big idiot with unbelievable power.



BlueCriminal said:


> I just figured he didn't want to do it because he's probably much more comfortable holding the guy in a turtle position or on his back -- both common positions in wrestling. If he sunk the hooks in, and rolled to his back there would probably be a good chance Heath would have been able to roll around and be in Brock's full guard which is probably what he wanted to avoid.


That could be the case but I still don't think it's a smart move on his part. If he is going to do that then he should really work on subs for when his opponent is in the turtle position. Get good with a guillotine or D'arce choke. He is so powerful that he could pretty much "muscle in" subs.


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## MalkyBoy (Nov 14, 2007)

At one point he had an excellent chance of sinking an RNC but it really did look like his arm was to big to fit under Herrings chin. 

He appears to be concentrating in his submission defence rather than offence and given his wrestling background and power who can blmae him.


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## BlueCriminal (Mar 21, 2007)

Tango87 said:


> That could be the case but I still don't think it's a smart move on his part. If he is going to do that then he should really work on subs for when his opponent is in the turtle position. Get good with a guillotine or D'arce choke. He is so powerful that he could pretty much "muscle in" subs.


I'm sure it would be good for his game to get the submissions, but wrestling is his bread and butter. Sherk did the same shit for 5 rounds against Franca, and you can be sure it was for the exact same reason. If he put the hooks it would have opened him up to a bunch of stuff. If his back control is as shitty as his mount control, then you can be sure he would have ended up on his back had he started playing the jujitsu game.


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## DiamondDash2k (Mar 4, 2007)

like my friend said, "Lesnar looks like a big lazy bear with no claws.."


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## name goes here (Aug 15, 2007)

He did pretty good on the ground. I don't think GG would give him more trouble than HH did. Nog or Werdum are prob his only challenges in UFC.


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## Tripod87 (Dec 30, 2007)

GG is very good at BJJ in case you forget.

But Lesnar didn't throw in hooks for a reason. Trust me, he _knows_ what hooks are. They are used a lot by many elite wrestlers so I'm positive he's trained them and trained defending them before. It wasn't that he doesn't know how or what hooks are, he just didn't want to use them (probably because he is so much bigger).

But other than that, I hate him. No class, he was laughing at his opponent the whole time, and he keeps thinking he's the sh*t. I'm sick of him. Go away.


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## capt_america (Apr 16, 2007)

no way man.. Gabe have more chance of submitting him than Frank Mir.. Plus IMO Gonzaga has better Striking game than any one Lesnar faced.. The only question is Gabe's cardio..
Hope Joe Silva will match these two guys next..Lesnar and Gonzaga..


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## Olddirty (Jun 1, 2008)

Tango87 said:


> Wow, is it me or was everyone else frustrated with Lesnars stupidity on the ground... It was quite possibly the worst display of a ground game I have ever seen...


The man was in his third MMA fight, going up against a veteran of over 40 fights and dominated him. I question the usage of the words "stupidity" and "worst". Brock obviously did _something_ right.

So Brock doesn't know BJJ and subs... give him time. He's still a rookie.


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

Having the back dominantly is something that requires skill, otherwise you (against Herring especially) risk losing position and end up on the bottom. Even Nogueira couldn't finish Heath of when he had his back! (and he got flipped over into guard) So I dnon't really blame Lesnar. He should focus more on submissions though, being so strong!


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## Olddirty (Jun 1, 2008)

DiamondDash2k said:


> like my friend said, "Lesnar looks like a big lazy bear with no claws.."


If your friend thought Lesnar looked "lazy" then what did your friend think about Herring?


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## Knock out (Jan 1, 2007)

I thought that Lesnar looked good. His standup was pretty good and he just controlled Herring for the full 15 minutes.


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## Brutus (May 27, 2007)

He was being smart and careful you idiots -.- Why risk his dominating position wich he had no problem keeping because he wants to show of his not so good jits skills? Its called following a gameplan.


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## Olddirty (Jun 1, 2008)

Tango87 said:


> Wow, is it me or was everyone else frustrated with Lesnars stupidity on the ground... It was quite possibly the worst display of a ground game I have ever seen... He would get Herring's back, pass it and go to side control like an idiot... It;s like he was at the 2 yard line, 1st and goal and he decides to kick a field goal. This guy SERIOUSLY needs to take a basic BJJ class.
> 
> Plus I agree with the other thread, he is a douchebag and showed little class tonight. Put him against Gabriel Gonzaga and I think the outcome would be a little different.


I just watched the fight again and I have to totally disagree with this post.

First, toward the end of round three there were *TWO* separate occassions where Brock tried to get his elbow under Heath's chin and both times Heath rolled and almost put Brock in guard. Both times Brock had to scramble to get top position back.

Second, Brock didn't go for the choke because he WANTED to be on the side. Did you not see those knees?! 

When Brock went balls out against Mir, everyone was saying, "You see! He's swinging wildly and has no control! That shows how green he is!" Now he gets the win showing patience and control and everyone's saying, "You see! He's not finishing! That fight was boring! That shows how green he is!" :confused05:

The Brock haters need to SERIOUSLY make up their minds.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

I expected Herring to win but he lost. He wasn't impressive in the match against Kongo giving him his back as many times as possible every round. The same has been against Brock Lesnar, I'm terrified by this kind of TDD. It's like "go ahead, **** me!". It's sad and disappointing for Heath. Lesnar took full advantage of this in his own way not by submittion attempts but by laying on him. Hopefully, next Lesnar's fight against somebody will be more exciting. I'm starting to believe that Brock might succeed in the UFC HW division: I see him beating Kongo, Vera and Frank Mir, but not Minotauro Nogueira and Werdum yet.


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## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

The way I look at it, Lesnar proved alot in this fight... Let me explain.

He proved that he can keep a level head, even after a huge haymaker which very well could have ended the fight there. 

He proved that he can design, implement and deploy a solid game plan. With someone as experienced as Heath, you dont want to go out of your own element to early in the fight (I.e BJJ / Striking). Later in the fight Lesnar did step up his posistioning for, and attempts at submissions, but still played it safe making sure that he had complete control over Heath at any paticular time. A few people have already said, going for a RNC, or even just sinking in hooks could have easilly opened up the oppurtunity for Herring to switch and end up in Lesnar's guard. As much as we are all excited to see what kind of punishment Lesnar can take, why on earth would he want too? 

He fought safe, which is a good idea when you are out-experienced by 30-40 some odd fights. He did what he needed to do to ensure victory.


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## ballsagna (Sep 23, 2007)

I feel VERY confident that Brock was instructed NOT to put in the hooks and go for submissions. Herring has a good record of being able to wiggle out of back control and the mount. Any type of scramble put Lesnar at risk for submission or KO.

I would hope that after several months of training he would know one of the very first ju jitsu set-up techniques, ie: hooks


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## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

ballsagna said:


> I feel VERY confident that Brock was instructed NOT to put in the hooks and go for submissions. Herring has a good record of being able to wiggle out of back control and the mount. Any type of scramble put Lesnar at risk for submission or KO.
> 
> I would hope that after several months of training he would know one of the very first ju jitsu set-up techniques, ie: hooks


Not to mention hooks are trained in wrestling... I am just guessing Lesnar has trained them considering his wrestling pedigree


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## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

Olddirty said:


> I just watched the fight again and I have to totally disagree with this post.
> 
> First, toward the end of round three there were *TWO* separate occassions where Brock tried to get his elbow under Heath's chin and both times Heath rolled and almost put Brock in guard. Both times Brock had to scramble to get top position back.
> 
> ...



I love this post


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## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

The_Senator said:


> by laying on him. Hopefully, next Lesnar's fight against somebody will be more exciting.












:confused05:


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Once more here is the fight if you want to see it 

http://www.kfight.net/MMA-Videos/Brock-lesnar-vs-heath-herring-UFC-87-fight-Video


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

I really don't know what annoyed me more the fact that Lesnar was body surfing Heath all fight or that Heath didn't perform well at all at an mma level. I know its easy to play armchair quaterback and I've done my fair share but I just didn't like the concept of this win for Lesnar. Heath could have done more but I can image trying to put anything offensivelly together when you have a monster sitting on you for 95% of the fight. Heath was battered from the first round looping right and never recovered really and gased. Lesnar won the only way I think he could which was to play totally defensive (Frank Mir had to still be in his head). Lesnars lack of respect after the fight shows what a true ass the guy is. That is why I don't see him as a mma fighter, he has no idea what respect is nore will he ever. Maybe if Lesnar did a martial art he would understand that.


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

I think Lesnar didn't sink the hooks in because of his size, it would have put him to high and to heavy which probably would have let Herring slide out from under him. I'm also kind of surprised that he was not able to get the Guillotine tapout along the cage when they were standing. This is probably either a technique problem or a size problem because realistically he should be able to pull someones head off.....


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

*Why THE HELL are people calling Brock one dimensional?*

Seriously, are you people just pissed about his antics or what? Firstly, as a Brock fan, I'll be the first to admit I found his antics immature and unprofessional...but given the context of the fight....I'll be quick for forgive this mistake.

But there is no way you should be calling him one dimensional. Especially when we saw Brock throw a flying knee, a violent right hand that rocked Heath badly, a very hard leg kick, some great knees from the clinch, solid takedowns, great control, knee's to the body from side control which is vastly underutilized in mma, advancing positions.....

This was his THIRD MMA BOUT. And people are already switching tides and saying "Heath was a perfect matchup for Brock's style" and other bullshit like that. Heath has beat alot of really solid mma fighters, and he had nothing for Brock.

If you find Brock to be an ass...thats fine...its justified. But saying he's one dimensional is simply wrong and he's already proven to use techniques in the cage that alot of guy wouldn't dare to with his experience level.

/end rant


----------



## DAMURDOC (May 27, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> Seriously, are you people just pissed about his antics or what? *Firstly, as a Brock fan, *


I stopped reading after this.


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## pliff (Oct 5, 2006)

I think people are calling him 1 dimensional only because he doesnt have a great jui-jitsu game yet and uses his wrestling (which is his base) more than anything else. Every fighter does this, its basically like saying Nog is one dimensional because he pulled guard against Big Tim to use his jitz.

Brock showed great improvement yesterday and could become a great fighter if he continues his development. 

That right hand looked like it hurt! especially on the slow motion replay!


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

DAMURDOC said:


> I stopped reading after this.


i'd like to think i've earned a reputation on this forum, that despite how much i like/dislike a fighter, i can acknowledge his strengths and weaknesses well



pliff said:


> I think people are calling him 1 dimensional only because he doesnt have a great jui-jitsu game yet and uses his wrestling (which is his base) more than anything else. Every fighter does this, its basically like saying Nog is one dimensional because he pulled guard against Big Tim to use his jitz.
> 
> Brock showed great improvement yesterday and could become a great fighter if he continues his development.
> 
> That right hand looked like it hurt! especially on the slow motion replay!


i think any doubts about his power in his hands is gone...he's had 2 ufc fights, and he's dropped his opponents in both w/ one punch


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## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

I think people need to realize... 

Herring, with *42* fights had no answers for Lesnar, with *2* fights.

Think about it...

I am all for 'Size dosent win fights, experience wins fights'
Thats usually pretty true, but you dont see anyone saying that now.

Hes obviously doing SOMETHING right, considering he just dominated a fighter with many times more experience.. against guys like Nog, Fedor....


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

I'm calling him one-dimensional cause thats all I've seen from the guy thus far. I don't care either way if Brock does well or fails, just calling how I see it. Any guy in the world can attempt flying knees, spinning backfists, windmill kicks, and not land one ever in their career, does that make them a well rounded mma fighter if all they do to win is control a guys back for 13mins of a fight. Bottomline he is one-dimensional and needs to work on submissions, more standup than a fient left and big right hand everytime more combos, and more importantly needs to learn to finish a fight. If you in a dominate postion like brock was 95% of the fight use it to win, he didn't because hes just not there yet as a fighter and knows it. He rode Heath cause of his own insecurity as a fighter andwas afraid of making a mistake or being submitted bottomline. I call it how I see it.


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## ozz525 (Oct 5, 2006)

Trust me people after a year of BJJ, Brock will be almost impossible to submit. He is just scary, his power is unmatched, I have never seen anyone with his power.


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## pliff (Oct 5, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> i think any doubts about his power in his hands is gone...he's had 2 ufc fights, and *he's dropped his opponents in both w/ one punch*


Not only that, but in the first minute of the fight in both cases.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

pliff said:


> Not only that, but in the first minute of the fight in both cases.


long, huge arms combined with brock lesnar reflexes and quickness....


----------



## Arlovski_Fan (Apr 25, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> Seriously, are you people just pissed about his antics or what? Firstly, as a Brock fan, I'll be the first to admit I found his antics immature and unprofessional...but given the context of the fight....I'll be quick for forgive this mistake.
> 
> But there is no way you should be calling him one dimensional. Especially when we saw Brock throw a flying knee, a violent right hand that rocked Heath badly, a very hard leg kick, some great knees from the clinch, solid takedowns, great control, knee's to the body from side control which is vastly underutilized in mma, advancing positions.....
> 
> ...


1 dimensional is when a fighter pretty much has 1 talent and relies heavily on it. Cro Cop is a great striker, but is 1 dimensional in that he is only a striker. Mark Hunt is another great striker, and he is even more 1 dimensional.
Brock Lesnar is a great wrestler and props to him, but he is very 1 dimensional. He threw 1 punch, 1 flying knee (that missed) and a total of no more than 8 knees in the clinch. Everything else he did in that fight was controlling his opponent on the ground using his wrestling skills. I think you are confusing people calling him 1 dimensional and insulting him. Cro Cop is one of my favorite fighters of all time, but he is CLEARLY 1 dimensional.


----------



## e-thug (Jan 18, 2007)

Arlovski_Fan said:


> 1 dimensional is when a fighter pretty much has 1 talent and relies heavily on it. Cro Cop is a great striker, but is 1 dimensional in that he is only a striker. Mark Hunt is another great striker, and he is even more 1 dimensional.
> Brock Lesnar is a great wrestler and props to him, but he is very 1 dimensional. He threw 1 punch, 1 flying knee (that missed) and a total of no more than 8 knees in the clinch. Everything else he did in that fight was controlling his opponent on the ground using his wrestling skills. I think you are confusing people calling him 1 dimensional and insulting him. Cro Cop is one of my favorite fighters of all time, but he is CLEARLY 1 dimensional.


Its a good point. I for one was really impressed with Brock tonight, I was in awe with his sheer power.

Give this guy a year to learn the jiu jitsu game and you have a scary heavyweight.


----------



## pliff (Oct 5, 2006)

e-thug said:


> Its a good point. I for one was really impressed with Brock tonight, I was in awe with his sheer power.
> 
> *Give this guy a year to learn the jiu jitsu game and you have a scary heavyweight.*



You know I was thinking about this and really feel like Brock could have a great future in the UFC. The HW division isnt very stacked so a beast like Lesnar is definatly a welcome addition the the HW's.

I could see him giving a lot of people problems... Call me crazy, but I think Brock _could_ even beat Couture with his stregth advantage.

*puts on the flame suit*


----------



## e-thug (Jan 18, 2007)

pliff said:


> You know I was thinking about this and really feel like Brock could have a great future in the UFC. The HW division isnt very stacked so a beast like Lesnar is definatly a welcome addition the the HW's.
> 
> I could see him giving a lot of people problems... Call me crazy, but I think Brock _could_ even beat Couture with his stregth advantage.
> 
> *puts on the flame suit*



:confused05: Dear god, you dont say things like that out loud.

But I definetly see where your coming from. It would be a hell of a war and I think Brock would take some punishment standing wit Couture.


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## Zarlok (Jul 8, 2008)

cplmac said:


> I think Lesnar didn't sink the hooks in because of his size, it would have put him to high and to heavy which probably would have let Herring slide out from under him. I'm also kind of surprised that he was not able to get the Guillotine tapout along the cage when they were standing. This is probably either a technique problem or a size problem because realistically he should be able to pull someones head off.....


The reason he didn't sink hooks in, is he is still got the mental programming of a wrestler. A wrestler is always ready to spawl, even when they seemingly have the upperhand. He needs some "reprogramming", which will come with experience and training.


----------



## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

e-thug said:


> :confused05: Dear god, you dont say things like that out loud.
> 
> But I definetly see where your coming from. It would be a hell of a war and I think Brock would take some punishment standing wit Couture.


I know Randy has the TDD, but I think with his small size, and Lesnars speed and power he would be pretty well off taking Randy down, and smothering any sweeps


What happens next? :dunno:


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## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

cplmac said:


> I think Lesnar didn't sink the hooks in because of his size, it would have put him to high and to heavy which probably would have let Herring slide out from under him. I'm also kind of surprised that he was not able to get the Guillotine tapout along the cage when they were standing. This is probably either a technique problem or a size problem because realistically he should be able to pull someones head off.....


Thats what I thought too, but basically every standing guillotine makes me wonder that, seems you could just squeeze down and throw your legs out from under you, dropping your weight is just going to cause that much more pressure :dunno: Seems like fighters would do it if it worked though


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## Tango87 (Oct 17, 2006)

Olddirty said:


> I just watched the fight again and I have to totally disagree with this post.
> 
> First, toward the end of round three there were *TWO* separate occassions where Brock tried to get his elbow under Heath's chin and both times Heath rolled and almost put Brock in guard. Both times Brock had to scramble to get top position back.
> 
> ...


Well I'm definitely not a Brock hater and I feel he has a lot of potential. BUT for being so big and dominating he should finish fights. If he can't knock the other guy out then he should work on subs. If he wants to play that BS wrestling "sit on top of the guy for 15 mins" then he will soon be picked apart. All I'm saying is that he should work more on his jits, if his gameplan was to not try and take his back for fear of being put into herring's guard, then he still has much to learn about MMA. 

Let's all just hope he never learns BJJ because the day he does will be scary... His power is unbelievable.


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## Tango87 (Oct 17, 2006)

Brutus said:


> He was being smart and careful you idiots -.- Why risk his dominating position wich he had no problem keeping because he wants to show of his not so good jits skills? Its called following a gameplan.


Calm down tiger... You must be a huge WWE fan...


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## jeremy202 (Feb 3, 2008)

Tango87 said:


> Calm down tiger... You must be a huge WWE fan...


Or maybe he just doesn't hate brock for being in the WWE like you do?

And I agree with him, he had a gameplan and was following it.


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

I was screaming various things, ranging from "you suck, kimura, rear naked choke, hooks, mount him, elbows, finish the fight, do something, stand them up, improve your position, end this already". Not necessairly in that order. Problem is Brock is one dimensional and this biggest strength is really his only strength which is to wrestle people not ko or submit them. He needs alot of work. Just cause you can wrestle people assume you can submit, which isn't true.


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## jeremy202 (Feb 3, 2008)

bmo37 said:


> I was screaming various things, ranging from "you suck, kimura, rear naked choke, hooks, mount him, elbows, finish the fight, do something, stand them up, improve your position, end this already". Not necessairly in that order


 Brock was steadily throwing punches, hammerfists, and knees at herring.Its not like he was laying on him and doing nothing


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

DAMURDOC said:


> I stopped reading after this.


Why? If you had kept reading, you would have noticed Aaronyman made some very, very valid points.

Man, the "I hate Lesnar because he's a punk who did pro wrestling and has a penis tatoo" shit is getting old.


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## Zarlok (Jul 8, 2008)

I think it should be said that in recent history, only I think Mirko and Fedor managed to TKO/KO Herring. He has a very solid chin.

As far as I'm concerned with the fight, lesnar dominated every aspect of what judging is graded on.

Lesnar knew he had to win this fight, and he stayed composed and stuck with a solid gameplan to insure that he did.

People will always hate on him just for his name being so closely associated with pro-wrestling. He could beat fedor, nog, and couture all in one night and people would complain "it's only because he's so strong" or some other retarded excuse. The whole point of MMA is to use your "tools" as effectively as possible. Most Lesnar's tools right now come from many years of wrestling(his whole life in fact -- started wrestling at 5 years old).

The reality is that this guy has incredible potential. Like GSP he is an incredibly gifted naturally athlete. It's amazing how fast the guy is for how big he is.


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## Tango87 (Oct 17, 2006)

jeremy202 said:


> Or maybe he just doesn't hate brock for being in the WWE like you do?
> 
> And I agree with him, he had a gameplan and was following it.


Can I quote myself??? "Once again I am not a Brock Hater"

I do not hate Brock lol. I have stated that I believe he will be an unstoppable force given that he attains better training. He's still new and has much to learn. And laying over a guy while he's in the turtle position and throwing ineffective knees and punches isn't much of a "gameplan" in my opinion.


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## Tango87 (Oct 17, 2006)

Zarlok said:


> I think it should be said that in recent history, only I think Mirko and Fedor managed to TKO/KO Herring. He has a very solid chin.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned with the fight, lesnar dominated every aspect of what judging is graded on.
> 
> ...


I agree about him dominating the fight. Now if he beat those three guys in one night I'd just expect Rob Emerson to move up in weight and dominate him.


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## jeremy202 (Feb 3, 2008)

Tango87 said:


> Can I quote myself??? "Once again I am not a Brock Hater"
> 
> I do not hate Brock lol. I have stated that I believe he will be an unstoppable force given that he attains better training. He's still new and has much to learn. And laying over a guy while he's in the turtle position and throwing ineffective knees and punches isn't much of a "gameplan" in my opinion.



Those knees looked pretty effective to me


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

It's pretty ignorant to say he is one dimensional or well rounded at this point. Realistically we've only seen him three times. That being said he proved that he was at least capable in the stand up and clinch and was not afraid to trade with Herring, and we know he is absolutely dominant on the ground with his wrestling and positional control. He has some real improvement to be made but calling him one dimensional because he failed to submit Herring is more than a bit premature. He did at least attempt a couple of submissions with a RNC and a bizarre guillotine that for unexplained reasons failed. One dimensional? Come on, put down your Brock flamethrower long enough to look at the fight objectively.


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## Zarlok (Jul 8, 2008)

jeremy202 said:


> Those knees looked pretty effective to me


Heh. Indeed. I'd like some of these people just to take one knee in the side/back from lesnar and then talk about how effective they are, after they are released from the hospital of course.


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

No, Lesnar has never heard of BJJ. He's only been in the sport for two years, everyone knows you aren't told about BJJ until you've been in for three years. Another ******* stupid thread.


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## Ebc_Kyle (Sep 24, 2006)

Lesnar has ok BJJ, but why use it? He knows BJJ, and he knows he doesn't have the BJJ skills that Hearing has (Hearing isn't excellent at BJJ, but Brock knows that Hearing is better than he is). Lesnar had the perfect gameplan, and he executed it beautifully. It was only his 3rd professional MMA fight and he beat Heath Herring... I mean, seriously, he's fought 3 times, and once was against Frank Mir, and once was against Heat Herring. Those are some pretty big names for someone just starting out.


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## Tango87 (Oct 17, 2006)

Ebc_Kyle said:


> Lesnar has ok BJJ, but why use it? He knows BJJ, and he knows he doesn't have the BJJ skills that Hearing has (Hearing isn't excellent at BJJ, but Brock knows that Hearing is better than he is). Lesnar had the perfect gameplan, and he executed it beautifully. It was only his 3rd professional MMA fight and he beat Heath Herring... I mean, seriously, he's fought 3 times, and once was against Frank Mir, and once was against Heat Herring. Those are some pretty big names for someone just starting out.


Agreed.


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## Tango87 (Oct 17, 2006)

cplmac said:


> No, Lesnar has never heard of BJJ. He's only been in the sport for two years, everyone knows you aren't told about BJJ until you've been in for three years. Another ******* stupid thread.


Witty remark guy... You sure did take a peak inside of this "******* stupid thread".


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## Tango87 (Oct 17, 2006)

Zarlok said:


> Heh. Indeed. I'd like some of these people just to take one knee in the side/back from lesnar and then talk about how effective they are, after they are released from the hospital of course.


Heh, I could take a knee fro that big galoot... Cake... I could do that in a sinch... 

Ok, relative man... relative! I could take a knee and probably end up in the hospital but then again I'm not a pro MMA fighter in an Elite Organization like the UFC.


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## jeremy202 (Feb 3, 2008)

Tango87 said:


> Witty remark guy... You sure did take a peak inside of this "******* stupid thread".



I thought cplmac response was pretty funny


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> i'd like to think i've earned a reputation on this forum, that despite how much i like/dislike a fighter, i can acknowledge his strengths and weaknesses well


I see you as a fairly objective poster and I agree completely.

People are saying Herring was a perfect matchup for him now? Wow, people change their minds quickly. Before the fight they were saying Herring would outstrike him and submit him on the ground.

It's having the Maynard/Edgar effect.

People need to cut Brock some slack anyways, it was his third MMA fight and he completely dominated a solid MMA veteran in Heath Herring. He took his back multiple times, mounted him multiple times, dropped him once, took him down at will.. He is like a heavyweight Sean Sherk except with alot of power in his hands as well.


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

I was thinking the same, when he has HH's back. But then I thought what non-Lesnar hater's think here: he's too green in BJJ to try to sub Herring with a RNC, and it can backfire.

Look, Herring has fought 3 times vs Big Nog, and he could only finish him once, 1 sub and 2 decisions. Nogueria is a BJJ master and he had a very hard time submitting Heath, heck, he was even rocked at UFC 73. So if Nogueria isn't a lock at submitting Herring, why should Lesnar risk it?


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

Lesnar's speed and strength was clearly shown last night. He was so quick that it looked unnatural, and everytime Herring would try to sprawl or roll Lesnar literally just rolled him back, a 250lb man like he was nothing. I mean it was like watching a little brother wrestling an older brother and just getting schooled. I just hope Lesnar doesn't end up too dependant on his wrestling like Hughes did.

BTW did anyone notice that the tackle attempt that Lesnar did after the big punch was like 2 inches away from a head to head tackle?


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

cdtcpl said:


> BTW did anyone notice that the tackle attempt that Lesnar did after the big punch was like 2 inches away from a head to head tackle?


I did notice that and he was real close to losing a point for kneeing Herring in the head there.


----------



## Shamrock-Ortiz (Sep 22, 2006)

*I LMAO'D so much in the Brock fight!!*

Seriously, from the start. Miragliotta eye poked Heath, and his reaction was priceless. Dan didn't know what to do so he kinda ignored the situation, funny stuff but Herring looked pissed. Then Lesnar flys in with a knee, had to laugh at that. The punch I was just like woahhhhh and then he ran at him like a bull!! I replayed that so many times pissing myself, that was funny shit.

Then of course the end where he tries to ride Heath and falls off!! I think that might've been the funniest thing ever in UFC. Then he tries to make himself look better by pointing at Heath and laughing, it was embarassing.

Here is something....



anonymous said:


> I'm excited for this fight. I can't wait for Heath to KO Lesnar and then hopefully Lesnar will leave the UFC.





anonymous said:


> I can't wait to see Heath destroy Brock. Hopefully after he beats him the overhyped Brock will be sent packing back to WWE where he belongs.





Shamrock-Ortiz said:


> I see no way Herring can win this fight. He's not good on his back which is where this fight will be... Simple as that. So he's decent at escaping the position against guys like Kongo when they are ontop of him, Lesnar is a different kind of animal.


Thanks.

EDIT: Big props to the sensible people who realised the obviousness of this fight.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

People call him one dimensional because he is. Brock threw one punch standing and the one flying knee which missed by a mile. He only threw a few knees in the clinch. He used his wrestling to control Heath the whole fight and stay in side control. Yes he did have some nice knees to the ribs but that was the highlight of the fight. The rest of it was him holding on and just maintaining side control. That's very one dimensional. If he wasn't one dimensional he would have kept it standing and worked his striking and then taken it to the ground or he would have used his wrestling to set up some sub attempts but he didnt. He used his wrestling to maintain side control. 

There are tons of one dimensional fighters in MMA. It usually happens when you have someone who is really good at one aspect come into MMA. Look at Maia or Cro Cop they are both one dimensional too.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Anyone who is complaining about Lesnar not sinking the hooks listen up.

I wasn't impressed with Lesnar's performance but that was probably the smartest thing he did all fight for a couple of reasons.

One I'm sure his back mount isn't very good yet so sinking the hooks in is a good way to end up on your back.

Two Herring is one of the best in the world when his opponent takes his back he got Nog off his back a number of times it's what he does.

Three controlling your opponent like that is great for GnP.

Now the issue I have with Lesnar is he never GnP'd. He had great control but he never threw punches and did damage.


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## baphamet (Jul 12, 2006)

he isn't well rounded just yet.....but isn't totally one-dimensional either.

you could even hear HH's corner telling him not to stand in from of BL, hes obviously got sick speed power in his stand up game and it needs to be respected.

but until he actually KO's someone or legitimately controls someone with his stand up, then he will be labeled one-dimensional.

that said, it was his 3rd mma fight (this has already been said many times but seems cannot be said enough) and he is just going to get better from here, that is the scary thing.

as far as his post fight antics, i couldn't care less.....i dont hate on fighters usually....so many talk shit before and after the fight, who cares anymore?


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Anyone who is complaining about Lesnar not sinking the hooks listen up.
> 
> I wasn't impressed with Lesnar's performance but that was probably the smartest thing he did all fight for a couple of reasons.
> 
> ...


My problem with saying Lesnar isn't experienced enough to know how to throw in the hooks and ride legs is that it's not true. Lesnar is an NCAA champ and has been wrestling all his life. Wrestlers always use legs and put in the hooks. Lesnar knows how to do it, it has nothing to do with inexperience.


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## jeremy202 (Feb 3, 2008)

Yeah the WWE bullshit was uncalled for.He shouldnt have been pointing and laughing, Im ok with the fishing pole motion he did, but pointing and laughing is another matter.Lesnar is still one of my favorite fighters, but he needs to be more respectful


----------



## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

This is probably the wrong thread to post this in, but watch as Lesnar drops Heath.



LMAO. He drops him, Heath does a back roll, and Brock completely bull charges him.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

MJbish Cain Velasquez doesn't put in the hooks when he takes guys backs either. He is a much better grappler than Lesnar it's just that it's a much more comfortable control than sinking the hooks in.

BTW did anyone else see Lesnar pull a Kongo and try to put Herring in a RNC with no hooks that was terrible.


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## Zarlok (Jul 8, 2008)

jeremy202 said:


> Yeah the WWE bullshit was uncalled for.He shouldnt have been pointing and laughing, Im ok with the fishing pole motion he did, but pointing and laughing is another matter.Lesnar is still one of my favorite fighters, but he needs to be more respectful



Uhh, he was pointing and laughing because the bell rang and just before it Herring was swinging wildly at Lesnar. He didn't didn't do a fishing pole motion either, smarty guy, you ever heard of a LASSO? You know, he just "tamed" the "crazy horse".

Tito and BJ have done much worse, and weren't even hamming it up in front of their home crowd.

We does everyone feel the need they have to maek a new thread and talk about the same crap already being talked about in other threads?


----------



## Dioxippus (Jun 30, 2008)

That's what I really didn't care for about this fight. He's still acting like a pro-wrestler out there. I really don't like to watch a wrestler lay on top of an opponent for three rounds either. Sure, he did lay some punches and knees in there but the fight was really boring because Heath would just turtle up and Brock would control position. I yawned several times. The fight went pretty much as I expected though, other than Brock acting like an ass at the end.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> MJbish Cain Velasquez doesn't put in the hooks when he takes guys backs either. He is a much better grappler than Lesnar it's just that it's a much more comfortable control than sinking the hooks in.
> 
> BTW did anyone else see Lesnar pull a Kongo and try to put Herring in a RNC with no hooks that was terrible.


It may be more comfortable for them but that doesn't mean they don't know how to do it or that Brock didn't do it becuase of inexperience. The hooks allow more control and leverage tho so it's beneficial for them to put them in.


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## jeremy202 (Feb 3, 2008)

Zarlok said:


> Uhh, he was pointing and laughing because the bell rang and just before it Herring was swinging wildly at Lesnar. He didn't didn't do a fishing pole motion either, smarty guy, you ever heard of a LASSO? You know, he just "tamed" the "crazy horse".
> 
> Tito and BJ have done much worse, and weren't even hamming it up in front of their home crowd.
> 
> We does everyone feel the need they have to maek a new thread and talk about the same crap already being talked about in other threads?



I know tito and BJ(especially BJ) are much worse and disrespect their opponents way more, but regardless, I didnt like the showboating brock did.Dont misunderstand me, I am a huge Lesnar fan, I just didn't like the showboating, thats all.


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## rberry88 (Sep 24, 2006)

If Brock doesn't learn that this is not the WWE then we are going to have the UFC plus Brock Lesnar because alot of the respectable UFC fighters will not want to be associated with Brock Lesnar, only put up with him. That is, until someone chokes him out and pushes him back down to indy shows, which I wouldn't mind. 

Why wouldn't he just finish the fight? Because he doesn't know how!!!


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Most wrestlers don't. It's not because they don't know how to because I'm sure Brock does it's because they don't have as much control since they are based in wrestling not BJJ.


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## wallysworld191 (Mar 28, 2007)

he didnt want to give up top control....so he was doing the right thing...now if your in a submission game it makes more sense to throw the hooks in but in this case it made perfect sense.

so your wrong...

this is mma not submission wrestling...if i want to stay on top of you and punch you im probably going to keep a stronger base than hooks in and roll over with you on top of me.


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> Seriously, are you people just pissed about his antics or what? Firstly, as a Brock fan, I'll be the first to admit I found his antics immature and unprofessional...but given the context of the fight....I'll be quick for forgive this mistake.
> 
> But there is no way you should be calling him one dimensional. Especially when we saw Brock throw a flying knee, a violent right hand that rocked Heath badly, a very hard leg kick, some great knees from the clinch, solid takedowns, great control, knee's to the body from side control which is vastly underutilized in mma, advancing positions.....
> 
> ...


Excellent post, mate, repped.

The problem is that Lesnar haters see him as a one dimensional gorilla, with no skill and he doesn't belong in MMA.

Impartial fans like you and me see him for what he is: the most athletic heavyweight, not in the UFC, but in MMA. He is the strongest, fastest and more coordinated heavywight. He has an excellent wrestling base, and a lot of potential.

He is called one dimensional because his name is not Randy Couture. Over the time, Randy got better, but, even after 10 years of MMA fights, he's not a well rounded MMA artist. Yet they expect someone that just made his 3rd MMA fight to be well rounded.

Now, isn't what Lesnar did to Herring about the same that Randy did to Tito 5 years ago, or to Sylvia last year?

He does what a wrestler does best: take the other guy down, control him, ground and pound him and manhandle him, not letting the opponent do ANYTHING.

And he shows a little of striking, in fact, he showed more that Damian Maia, despite having a much hyped improved standing game.

They guy is not stupid, he had a perfect game plan, he knows what he can and can't do.

When he improves his stand up and submission defense to a higher level, he'll be a top 10 HW.


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## jeremy202 (Feb 3, 2008)

rberry88 said:


> If Brock doesn't learn that this is not the WWE then we are going to have the UFC plus Brock Lesnar because alot of the respectable UFC fighters will not want to be associated with Brock Lesnar, only put up with him. That is, until someone chokes him out and pushes him back down to indy shows, which I wouldn't mind.
> 
> Why wouldn't he just finish the fight? Because he doesn't know how!!!





Most likely he wanted to play it safe, and not give herring any chances to submit him, like what happened in the mir fight.


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## Dioxippus (Jun 30, 2008)

rberry88 said:


> Why wouldn't he just finish the fight? Because he doesn't know how!!!


I agree. His GnP did not look impressive. You could call that playing it safe, but I wouldn't. He couldn't hold the mount on Heath at all.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

You're kidding right? How do they not have as much control? High school wrestlers ride legs all the time and have great control with it. Yeah if you don't keep your weight and positioning right you can end up too high but if you've been doing it as long as someone like Cain or Brock you should know how to control your weight and be able to have tons of control.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

When you put hooks in it's very easy to get reversed.

Most wrestlers just choose to control backs until they get their BJJ skills to a higher level.

Lesnar isn't the only one.


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> Seriously, are you people just pissed about his antics or what? Firstly, as a Brock fan, I'll be the first to admit I found his antics immature and unprofessional...but given the context of the fight....I'll be quick for forgive this mistake.
> 
> But there is no way you should be calling him one dimensional. Especially when we saw Brock throw a flying knee, a violent right hand that rocked Heath badly, a very hard leg kick, some great knees from the clinch, solid takedowns, great control, knee's to the body from side control which is vastly underutilized in mma, advancing positions.....
> 
> ...


:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
what? that he can hold a guy down and punch him? seriously all he did was sit on heaths back and punch him couple times, to me it seemed like he didn't even try to finish the fight.


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

I have to agree with the OP. Brock totally destroyed a fighter with a ton of MMA experience against _the best hw's in the world_. The people that are critical of his performance in this fight are the same people that thought Herring was going to win and that Lesnar doesn't belong in MMA. Sorry guys, Brock just proved he belonged. Also, what Brock did was not Lay and Pray. He delivered significant damage with knees to the body and punches to the head / face. He had to be careful of hitting the back of the head as Heath was turtled up for most of the fight. I was really skeptical of Brock coming to MMA but there is no denying now that the guy is for real.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

The only real problem I had with Brock in that fight was his inactivity but I'm sure he was trying not to get too excited again like the Mir fight. By the way that right hand he landed was ugly.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Brock's a good fighter but to me his is one dimensional. His GnP is weak, his submission game is still poor.

Now his striking seems to be powerful but I haven't seen enough of him to consider him a well rounded striker.

His wrestling is great but some of his shots against Herring weren't very good.

He did a great job of controlling Heath but atm he is a one dimensional fighter.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

That was badass.

The right hand and football tackle was one of the most Hilarious things I have ever seen in MMA.

I missed the last half of third round, was it more of the same?

Gotta read back over this thread.

Wow a lot of weird stuff being said in this thread. Of course the lay and pray idiocy is going to come out even though Brock stayed active and turned Heaths face to pizza, as well as probably making him piss blood for a week. It was a more exciting fight than GSP vs. Fitch, thats for sure.

On not putting hooks in and taking Heaths back, yeah, what BBJD7 said. What are you people, ******* stupid? Brocks a wrestler.

It's not that surprising that Brock didn't finish Heath, Heaths near impossible to finish.

I think the biggest revelation in this fight was that Brock has good cardio.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

Wow, a lot of you people are idiots. Is this the first time a wrestler has negelected submissions in favour of maintaining control?


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## sove (Apr 7, 2007)

Herring has better BJJ. Even though I've never seen either guy train I can make that statement with certainty. Though I don't fight MMA, I do grapple, and I can tell you that when I'm rolling with a purple, brown or black belt, I'll do anything to stay out of their guard. I also know that if they end up in my guard, I'm getting passed.

Lesnar is obviously great at riding an opponent who's turtled up. It's his 3rd fight. He made a good decision and stayed safe while inflicting damage consistently. Anyone who thinks Herring didn't take serious damage in the fight is crazy. I guarantee Herring would have rolled into Lesnar's guard, passed, and finished the fight if Lesnar had taken his back.

Yes, I would have liked to see Lesnar finish the fight and I did yell things like "get hooks" and "kimura" during the fight, but I understand why he didn't do it.

By the way, I absolutely hate pro wrestling. I didn't even like it as a kid. Brock Lesnar is new to me. As long as he keeps improving his MMA skills, I'm happy to watch his fights. If he doesn't improve with each fight, I'll lose interest quick.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

The Bull riding and Lasso was hilarious!

And thats why having a Pro-wrestler in MMA is awesome.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

Are knees to the spine legal in UFC? Sorry if anyone answered this before, but this thread is too big for me to search it.


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

valrond said:


> Excellent post, mate, repped.
> 
> The problem is that Lesnar haters see him as a one dimensional gorilla, with no skill and he doesn't belong in MMA.
> 
> ...


your worng he has a very great skill of wrestling but that is it currently and until i see more from him I will contiune to call him a one dimensional fighter. No one ever said he has no potential or couldn't grow into being a well rounded mma fighter but right now hes not there plain and simple. If your a foul shooting champion in basketball doesn't mean ur an NBA allstar, just means you have one very good facite of the game. Brock has one good talent and thats wrestling, down the road he might evolve but for people to act like this guy has displayed dominate striking, submissions, plan execution in 3 fights is straight up wrong. I know people are fans and emotionally attached to their favorite fighters but don't let that cloud the fact that he needs alot of work and isn't as great as people are saying just yet.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Freelancer said:


> Are knees to the spine legal in UFC? Sorry if anyone answered this before, but this thread is too big for me to search it.


Nope they are illegal.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

mjbish23 said:


> Nope they are illegal.


Well, how could Lesnar use them last night then?


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

The Fact is people don't like Brock and will try to find any excuse to shit all over him.

I missed all the posts about GSP sucking because he just lay on fitch and didn't finish:confused02:


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

GSP's GnP was very good what Brock did wasn't. It has nothing to do with finishing opponents it has to do with doing damage.

Also Brock had Herring's back GSP was in guard and half guard for most of the fight much different situations.

The Negation how can you debate that? it has nothing to do with hating Brock.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

It has everything to do with hating Brock, thats why people refuse to give him any credit.

Of course GSPs GnP was better lol, it's GSP. But Brock was very active and people completely ignore that.

People are acting like it was a lay and pray win and it was nothing of the sort, no more than what GSP did was.


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> GSP's GnP was very good what Brock did wasn't. It has nothing to do with finishing opponents it has to do with doing damage.
> 
> Also Brock had Herring's back GSP was in guard and half guard for most of the fight much different situations.
> 
> The Negation how can you debate that? it has nothing to do with hating Brock.



Well, Brock has 3 fights, GSP, 19, and has one, if not the best GnP in MMA.

But for a guy in his 3rd fight, to make Herring with over 40 fights look like a newbie, manhandling to te point where Herring all could do was survive, well, it should get you some respect.

And as I said before, many one dimensional guys have been champ, until quite recently, like Tito or Randy. They have more skills, but his main one, wrestling, is so dominant, that it eclipses every other skill.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Yes he controlled Herring.

He used his wrestling. But no he didn't have active GnP.

He didn't throw nearly enough. It was a more exicting version of LnP.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> GSP's GnP was very good what Brock did wasn't. It has nothing to do with finishing opponents it has to do with doing damage.
> 
> Also Brock had Herring's back GSP was in guard and half guard for most of the fight much different situations.
> 
> The Negation how can you debate that? it has nothing to do with hating Brock.


are you saying brock did no damage in the ground and pound?

gsp only did damage to fitch on the ground when he was already rocked from standing exchanges for the most part

i thought brock was going to finish after that knee to the body from the clinch....heath looked like he was hurt badly

there were lots of times when i thought brock was going to get whizzer'd and taken down...but brock used his wrestling and didn't let that happen....

brock really needs more practice maintaining mount and doing effective damage from their....he looked a lil lost there and heath squirmed out at will....sherk should help him there...


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

No I'm not but he did damage in his fight with Mir that didn't make what he did in that fight good GnP.

Lesnar was far to passive in this fight he didn't really attack.

Brock's GnP was pretty bad still IMO. But his wrestling and his power made up for it in the fight.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Yes he controlled Herring.
> 
> He used his wrestling. But no he didn't have active GnP.
> 
> He didn't throw nearly enough. It was a more exicting version of LnP.


It was in no way LnP. At all. He was continually attempting to land shots and would have done a lot more if Heath hadn't been abkle to use the back of his head as a shield.

Notice how the ref didn't have to stand them up much? Did he even have to do it once? I can't remember, but I don't think so.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

There were plenty of things Brock could've done when he had that postion that he didn't he controlled and that's fine but he didn't really have solid GnP at any point in the fight.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

It was solid GnP when he was kneeing the crap out of Heaths back and kidneys.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

TheNegation said:


> It was in no way LnP. At all. He was continually attempting to land shots and would have done a lot more if Heath hadn't been abkle to use the back of his head as a shield.
> 
> Notice how the ref didn't have to stand them up much? Did he even have to do it once? I can't remember, but I don't think so.


the fight was never stood up

brock knew going in (just from the kongo fight alone) that heath was very very slippery from scrambles....you could see him try and reverse lesnar...but lesnar watched his positions lightly

his ground and pound wasn't good...i'll admit that. but i'm glad he's securing positions first....now he can learn to intelligently posture up, throw some short, tight punches, and then secure the position again...sherk-style


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I agree aaronyman but I think he is one dimensional ATM.

He right now is a wrestler he has power but idk how good his stand up is. His grappling isn't very good besides control.

Brock has a bright future but right now he is one dimensional just like Werdum was one dimensional before he went to Chute Boxe.


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## Breadfan (Jan 3, 2008)

Aaronyman said:


> long, huge arms combined with brock lesnar reflexes and quickness....


Haven't posted much in a while... Sup 


I'll say he looked 100% one dimensional though in this fight. Yes, he punches hard, and he pinned Herring like 5 times during the match. 

Look at his ground game. It looked like Corky from Life goes on was trying to **** a dead mule. He looked confused, and there were a lot of times when he would have herring in some ridiculous position and not know how to improve his position.


All respect to the guy- He beat Herring's ass... But honestly if you didn't HAVE to get 10 points if you won the round, I would have scored it 24-26 Brock.


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

Pride fans just love cheering for their own. Im laughing my ass off thinking about all those blind idiots that lost their moneys betting on Herring on this one. 
One dimensional perhaps, but definetily not a boring fighter. Compare Lesnar with old TUF times Josh Koscheck; brutal G&P by Lesnar (see Herring's face for more detailed info), boring point scoring by Koscheck. 
Even though I personally dislike Koscheck he is easily a win away from rematch for title with GSP, his submissions and G&P has improved alot, and he isn't as boring anymore. Now give Brock some time to get more versatile too and we'll have him fighting for title soon enough.

There is alot more one dimensional fighters than Brock is. Brock's wrestling is best of HW division now, and he doesn't just control people on ground and score points. He hurts them hard. Once he adds some submissions, better submission defense and even better stand up I don't think anyone in UFC can stop him.


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## eric2004bc (Apr 27, 2008)

Aaronyman said:


> Seriously, are you people just pissed about his antics or what? Firstly, as a Brock fan, I'll be the first to admit I found his antics immature and unprofessional...but given the context of the fight....I'll be quick for forgive this mistake.
> 
> But there is no way you should be calling him one dimensional. Especially when we saw Brock throw a flying knee, a violent right hand that rocked Heath badly, a very hard leg kick, some great knees from the clinch, solid takedowns, great control, knee's to the body from side control which is vastly underutilized in mma, advancing positions.....
> 
> ...


i agree 100%, i think alot of people underestimate brocks skill, as he was from WWE and he has only had 3 MMA fights

brock showed last night that he has the stand up and strhgt to be a deadly force to rekon with in the HW division and he also proved that his ground game is sloid, although i do admit that broks ground game could use a lil touch up, e.g locking in the legs when he had heaths back, but as i said ealri its onlu his third MMA fight and he will get better with experiance


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## bigaza (Feb 10, 2007)

first let me say i was one of the brock haters but after last nights performance ive been forced to eat my own words, i actually picked herring for the win via ko but brock came with his "A' game his ground control was awesome and he seemed to keep herring down with minimal effort.

we still havent seen much of the stand up but that right hand spoke for itself lol i thought herring was gonna fly into the front row, however if he wants that title hes gonna haf 2 improve on the ground game seeing as big nog is on another level to all the ufcs heavyweights right now.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

Throwing a punch and having it land doesn't make you a striker. 
His striking isn't technically sound; he only has power.
He has no semblance of BJJ, or any other form of submissions. 
He is a one dimensional fighter, unless athleticism is a dimension.


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## Olddirty (Jun 1, 2008)

Arlovski_Fan said:


> 1 dimensional is when a fighter pretty much has 1 talent and relies heavily on it.
> 
> Brock Lesnar is a great wrestler and props to him, but he is very 1 dimensional. He threw 1 punch...


He only needed to throw one punch.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

Arlovski_Fan said:


> 1 dimensional is when a fighter pretty much has 1 talent and relies heavily on it. Cro Cop is a great striker, but is 1 dimensional in that he is only a striker. Mark Hunt is another great striker, and he is even more 1 dimensional.
> Brock Lesnar is a great wrestler and props to him, but he is very 1 dimensional. He threw 1 punch, 1 flying knee (that missed) and a total of no more than 8 knees in the clinch. Everything else he did in that fight was controlling his opponent on the ground using his wrestling skills. I think you are confusing people calling him 1 dimensional and insulting him. Cro Cop is one of my favorite fighters of all time, but he is CLEARLY 1 dimensional.


Na, CC is not 1 dimensional at all. Excellent take down defense, good submission defense, good ground and pound... he submitted Kevin Randlemenn... survived on the ground w/ Wandy Silva(bjj blackbelt), Fedor, etc. Mirko is NOT 1-dimensional. I would say he has a better ground game than 50% of the top MMA HW's. He has a very strong mount and a solid base... just watch Kongo vs CC Round 1



GMW said:


> Throwing a punch and having it land doesn't make you a striker.
> His striking isn't technically sound; he only has power.
> He has no semblance of BJJ, or any other form of submissions.
> He is a one dimensional fighter, unless athleticism is a dimension.


Na he is an MMA fighter w/ a glaring strength that he relies on. He has not been outstruck AT ALL in either of his UFC fights... so how can he be 1 dimensional?


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

We have no proof of him having stand up skill.

He is a wrestler with power at the moment Wukka nothing really wrong with that but that's what he is.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> We have no proof of him having stand up skill.
> 
> He is a wrestler with power at the moment Wukka nothing really wrong with that but that's what he is.


I think he's a wreslter who is learning an "MMA" game. He is never going to establish amazing bjj or amazing striking b/c he is focused on "MMA" instead.


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## Olddirty (Jun 1, 2008)

GMW said:


> Throwing a punch and having it land doesn't make you a striker.
> His striking isn't technically sound; he only has power.
> He has no semblance of BJJ, or any other form of submissions.
> He is a one dimensional fighter, unless athleticism is a dimension.


Throwing a punch and having it land does not make you a striker. True.

Throwing a punch, having it land, and having it send your opponent half-way across the cage turning his face to hamburger just might make you a striker. 

But seriously,

Everyone who says that he needs BJJ and he needs more technical striking needs to understand that Brock *WANTS* to use his wrestling. *SO WHAT* if he's one dimensional?! Sherk dominated 155 with pure wrestling; Liddell dominated 205 with pure stand up. If you're one dimensional and REALLY GOOD at that one dimension you can still be a badass and even become the best in the world.

There is no one in MMA now who can match Brock in temrs of pure grappling. Brock just needs to be "good enough" in the stand up to not get KO'd (He may already eb there) and "good enough" in BJJ to not get sub'd and that's it: GAME OVER. If he gets to that level of "good enough" at the stuff that's not wrestling then NOBODY is going to beat him.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

wukkadb said:


> I think he's a wreslter who is learning an "MMA" game. He is never going to establish amazing bjj or amazing striking b/c he is focused on "MMA" instead.


Yea so ATM he is one dimensional.

I'm not saying he will be his whole career I'm just saying right now he is a wrestler with power that's about it.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

He's not one-dimensional, but he's not three-dimensional either. To be exact, he's two-dimensional. It's pretty obvious that no one can outwrestle this guy, and he's shown some decent standup too. What he has also shown though, is a complete lack of submissions, sub-positioning, and sub defence. There were so many times in that fight that I was like "he gave you his back from the mount! Get your damn hooks in and choke him you dumb &^%&!!". Yeah maybe he was more comfortable battering a submission novice like Herring for 15 mins, but against anyone with decent subs he would regret giving up so many chances to finish the fight. With his current game, he'll dominate half the division like kids. But Mir, Nogueira, Werdum or Gonzaga would all have him screaming uncle in less than 30 secs.


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Yea so ATM he is one dimensional.
> 
> I'm not saying he will be his whole career I'm just saying right now he is a wrestler with power that's about it.


I agree in that he is one dimensional, many wrestlers have been and still are pretty much one dimensional. Matt Hughes was pretty much one dimensional, no striking ability at all, and crappy bjj, he got submitted twice by Dennis Hallman. He added submissions later, got some RNC and armbars here and there, but he never developed a stand up game. I could say the same for Tito and Randy. They trained in stand up, but went to the ground whenever they could.

Lesnar can strike, but he's not a striker. But it is dangerous enough to throw some punches for the other guy to care about them, and then set up the takedown. He doesn't need to learn how to make subs atm, just avoid them. With his excellent wrestling and athleticism, we can control almost anyone on the ground.

So the bias is not calling him one dimensional, it's that other guys have been pretty much one dimensional for a long, long time and are not accused of being.


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## Grotty (Jul 21, 2006)

*Brock Lesnar will never be champ*

Lesnar wont be champ...
Reason being is he wouldnt beat Big Nog


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

Grotty said:


> Lesnar wont be champ...
> Reason being is he wouldnt beat Big Nog


That assumes that Big Nog will be UFC champ forever and nobody will beat him.


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## Benge (Mar 8, 2008)

I have to disagree. I can see Brock using his brute strength to lay on top of Nogueira for 5 straight rounds for the title. I'm not saying I like the idea, I absolutely ABHOR it(!), but I'm not saying it's impossible.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

I don't see Brock beating Big Nog or Fedor (the only HW I am 100% sure could take the title from Nog) so I have to say I don't think he'll be champ either. Also, I wonder if Brock has the stamina to hold off an incredible guard like Big Nog's for 25 mins. He's only ever fought 15 mins and he had the advantage of an opponent who gassed early and who he outclassed in every way.


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## mattandbenny (Aug 2, 2007)

I was impressed, Lesnar is a huge dude, so strong and has some power in his striking too. 

It didnt matter to some of you Lesnar haters what he did, your mind was made up before the fight started.


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## mattandbenny (Aug 2, 2007)

Freelancer said:


> Well, how could Lesnar use them last night then?


He was kneeing him in the side.


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## ramram22 (Aug 26, 2007)

Theres alot of really good HWTS who will never be thought of as champion at one point in time. Doesn't mean he's not a real good MMA fighter with a future.


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## jeremy202 (Feb 3, 2008)

Right now, nog would beat lesnar.If lesnar worked on his BJJ enough so he could avoid submissions, perhaps he can win.His best chance is by knockout, though.That was a vicious cross he threw that sent heath flying across the ring.I think he might be the hardest puncher in the UFC(not the best, but the hardest).He might be able to knock out nog.

See how much he improved after the mir fight? After 5 more fights, he will probably be ready to face nog(or whoever is champion at the time)


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

mattandbenny said:


> He was kneeing him in the side.







































How are these landing on the side?
When Herring is on his side... only Herring's back is exposed.


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## milkkid291 (Dec 31, 2006)

The spine is where the spine bone is located. He wasn't landing knees right on the spine. He landed them to the side where the kidneys are located. If you watch the fight or give a gif, instead of still pictures with the knee in the air, you will see the redness of where the knees were landing. The side of the back.


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

mattandbenny said:


> He was kneeing him in the side.


These will better illustrate what I mean























































These sure look like 'back' strikes to me


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## attention (Oct 18, 2006)

I might be wrong... 
But AFAIK, the back is a no no.

The side is fine... like how GSP was smoking Serra... 
But when Herring is on his side, all that is left is his back... both of Herrings legs are facing the same direction away.

Especially that last GIF... clearly that shows its hitting the lower-mid back.


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

I think a Lesnar vs. Nog fight would be similar to Nog vs. Sapp. Brock using his strength to overpower Nog but eventually getting subbed.


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

Coming from a big Lesnar supporter, (I had a sig bet on him), it's obvious he will never beat Nog, Werdum or Gonzaga (and thats just taking about people from the UFC). He is too old and developing a ground game that good takes a decade + (unless your BJ)


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## shane_fitz (Apr 8, 2007)

It may just be me takeing Lesnar's side because I actually enjoyed the post fight antics, but why is everyone flaming Brock for the post fight roping of Herring when these same people who are pissed about that love James Irvin gunning people down after a fight or Anderson Silvas' dance he does after a fight or GSP's backflips...? Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the gun/dance/and flips as much as the next guy, but I dont really think that Brock should get flamed for his "rodeo" antics because for 1 he was doing it for fun & to put on a show, and for 2 he hadnt really gotten the respect that he obviously deserved up until after the fight. But like I said im a Lesnar fan so maybe im biased.


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## Uchi (Oct 15, 2006)

I think that big Tim has worked on BJJ much longer than Lesnar has or will, and we saw how that went with Nog. 

But i'm not gonna rule Lesnar out. If he was to beat Nog, he would have to keep it standing, use the power he showed last night against Herring and use his wrestling background to avoid getting taken down similarly to what Chuck does.


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## jeremy202 (Feb 3, 2008)

Uchi said:


> I think that big Tim has worked on BJJ much longer than Lesnar has or will, and we saw how that went with Nog.
> 
> But i'm not gonna rule Lesnar out. If he was to beat Nog, he would have to keep it standing, use the power he showed last night against Herring and use his wrestling background to avoid getting taken down similarly to what Chuck does.


My thoughts exactly


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## Arlovski_Fan (Apr 25, 2007)

wukkadb said:


> Na, CC is not 1 dimensional at all. Excellent take down defense, good submission defense, good ground and pound... he submitted Kevin Randlemenn... survived on the ground w/ Wandy Silva(bjj blackbelt), Fedor, etc. Mirko is NOT 1-dimensional. I would say he has a better ground game than 50% of the top MMA HW's. He has a very strong mount and a solid base... just watch Kongo vs CC Round 1


Mmm okay I'll give you that. Pre 2005/2006 he was pretty 1 dimensional though and I always think of him as such. I was trying to make a logical connection and he popped into my head as one.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

TheNegation said:


> Wow, a lot of you people are idiots. Is this the first time a wrestler has negelected submissions in favour of maintaining control?


No but Lesnar's GnP was not well done. He really should've picked it up a little bit.


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## T.B. (Jul 4, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> No but Lesnar's GnP was not well done. He really should've picked it up a little bit.


BRO....seriously! Stop being so critical of Lesnar man! The guy's THIRD mixed martial arts fight! He f-cking controlled the VETERAN Heath Herring. 

Geeeez bbjd...of COURSE his G-n-P isn't going to be perfect. C'mon bro....your nitpicking is crazy right now! Remember, 3rd fight of his career.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> No but Lesnar's GnP was not well done. He really should've picked it up a little bit.


Hey I'm on your side buddy I'm just talking about Lesnar not taking Heaths back and putting hooks in(whereupon Heath would undoubtedly have turned into Lesnar leaving him on his back and in a world of trouble).


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## Baby Jay D. (Apr 25, 2008)

cant see brock ever beating big nog. time is not on his side to develop that level of sub defense.

nog can recover so damn fast after taking big shots, ask herring after that insane head kick from hell. he can also last a long time under extreme punishment. 

if brock was on the ground against nog as long as he was v herring last night, he would have been subbed, fact.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

I think it's too soo to judge, but honestly, even as I fan of his I don't think he can develop the sub game to get past Werdum, Nog or GG.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

T.B. said:


> BRO....seriously! Stop being so critical of Lesnar man! The guy's THIRD mixed martial arts fight! He f-cking controlled the VETERAN Heath Herring.
> 
> Geeeez bbjd...of COURSE his G-n-P isn't going to be perfect. C'mon bro....your nitpicking is crazy right now! Remember, 3rd fight of his career.


T.B. My issue is that he could've and he didn't.

Of course it's only his 3rd fight and for a third fight I'm impressed however that doesn't mean he doesn't need to improve certain things. GnP being IMO #1 on the list

ATM he is a very good wrestler who is very powerful however he needs work on his GnP so he can finish opponents in the future.

IDK if you missed the part in this thread where I defended Lesnar not taking his opponents back because he is a young wrestler.


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## GarethUFC (Sep 12, 2007)

jesus guys, give the man a chance... people love to hate on him... hes a Guy trying to make it in mma, he loves the sport and id say the Richest man in the UFC by far... i would love to see him do very well... and yes, i believe he can take the belt if he works hard.... he is SO fast!


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

GarethUFC said:


> jesus guys, give the man a chance... people love to hate on him... hes a Guy trying to make it in mma, he loves the sport and id say the Richest man in the UFC by far... i would love to see him do very well... and yes, i believe he can take the belt if he works hard.... he is SO fast!


what does his being rich or not have to do with anything?


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

I'm automatically betting points on any fighter against Lesnar from now on. I wondered from time to time why I never used my points. Now I know; I was waiting for the day where I'll win them back betting against Lesnar.


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## ramram22 (Aug 26, 2007)

I see Nog losing the title to Werdum, and Brock will not be able to beat Werdum. Brock's best chance is getting Nog after 4 defense's and defeat a past prime NOG


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

Any fighter with great jiu-jitsu will beat him and it happens to be that the top two fighters in the UFC's HW division have great BJJ in Nogueira and Werdum.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I wouldn't go that far.

Now I don't think Lesnar will ever be champion.

I think Werdum, Gonzaga, and Nog are all trouble for him and he and Werdum are he same age.

Now with that said it's defiantly possible.

He is the strongest HW I've ever seen and he has a lot of power he defiantly could win the HW title one day I just wouldn't bet on it especially with Cain Velasquez coming up I think if Cain ever gets his hands on the title he will hold it for awhile.


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

Those knee looked like they were landing on the kidney to me.


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## JuggNuttz (Oct 5, 2006)

GMW said:


> Those knee looked like they were landing on the kidney to me.


except #3 and 4... they look like the Buttocks region


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

JuggNuttz said:


> except #3 and 4... they look like the Buttocks region


Yeah, but the first one, that's directly in the kidney.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

Brock is always going to be controversial just because of who he is and where he came from.

However, tonight we saw a much more composed, methodical, mature fighter....who pretty much controlled the whole fight and handled a solid veteran of the sport a loss without taking any serious damage. He is much better than he was against Mir, and although he still needs work, i think he's proved that he's legit at this point.


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## King50 (Jul 3, 2008)

Benge said:


> I have to disagree. I can see Brock using his brute strength to lay on top of Nogueira for 5 straight rounds for the title. I'm not saying I like the idea, I absolutely ABHOR it(!), but I'm not saying it's impossible.


lmao!

If nog somehow survived sapp he might do with brock maybe raise01:, brock is a scary fighter just tell by the size of his arms


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

i don't want to see Brock fight for the title until Christmas 2009...that gives him some serious time to work on his bjj


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

Lesnar will *never* be champ? How in the hell could anyone say that with any conviction? It's impossible to tell where his skill set will be in two or three years. Another useless ******* thread.


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## MetalMunkey (Oct 14, 2006)

cplmac said:


> Lesnar will *never* be champ? How in the hell could anyone say that with any conviction? It's impossible to tell where his skill set will be in two or three years. Another useless ******* thread.


He's from the future.


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> i'd like to think i've earned a reputation on this forum, that despite how much i like/dislike a fighter, *i can acknowledge his strengths and weaknesses well*


considering your a brock fan, you dont acknowledge his weaknesses at all. all you know is his strengths, which is wrestling, hand speed and brute force. he has no BJJ and his striking isn't as versatile as you put it in your first post. so considering he's a excellent wrestler, his TDD and ground control should be top notch but it shouldn't give him the credibility that his more then a 1 dimensional fighter only cause those 3 things go hand in hand.


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## canuckchuck (Oct 15, 2006)

i can't believe people talking crap about lesnar he totaly dominated that fight totaly, herring did almost nothing,and as far as the b.s after the fight its ok for tito and kendall grove to do that stupid grave digging crap after there fight, but brock should just drag his feet out of the cage with his head down,come on .


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## GMW (Nov 15, 2006)

canuckchuck said:


> i can't believe people talking crap about lesnar he totaly dominated that fight totaly, herring did almost nothing,and as far as the b.s after the fight its ok for tito and kendall grove to do that stupid grave digging crap after there fight, but brock should just drag his feet out of the cage with his head down,come on .


People hate Tito ortiz and grove here. They constantly get shat on. The only person who gets away with show boating, here at least, to any extent, is BJ penn.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> T.B. My issue is that he could've and he didn't.
> 
> Of course it's only his 3rd fight and for a third fight I'm impressed however that doesn't mean he doesn't need to improve certain things. GnP being IMO #1 on the list
> 
> ...


brock doesn't have the balance/flexibility to effectively take someone's back when his oppponent is below him...sherk's the same way...he just doesn't do it

once again, i agree on the GnP...there's a constant tradeoff between control and GnP aggression and brock definitely leaned heavily on control...which i think for this fight was smart, given Herring's slipperyness and Brock's inexperience. the thing is, sherk still tends to lean heavily on control, and since they are basically trained by all the same guys and have the same backgrounds, lesnar will follow in sherk's footsteps....being a great mma wrestler, with great passing (needs work) and not sacrificing much control for quick, short, tight GnP.

anyone else love brock's knees to the body from the clinch...? you could see herring quiver in pain...they must have hurt like a bitch


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## Slug (Apr 8, 2007)

brock actually has pretty good striking w/ his 1hitko power. he is so massive it's hard to hit him in the face and because he's so massive he has a good first punch on anyone. he dropped mir and herring easily, but after that he just does the LNP, although it's effective, but not fight finishing.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

I personally don't like Brock that much because of his lack of respect for the other fighter. I do understand that it is because he is coming out of the WWE but he needs to grow up.

That being said I think he has a bright future in MMA he has an overwhelming size and is a good wrestler. with that combo it would bake it hard for any BJJ guy to submit them because he can over power them. He also has huge heavy hands. Give him a while to learn and he may be champ. 

But Really you never know


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

> brock actually has pretty good striking w/ his 1hitko power. he is so massive it's hard to hit him in the face and because he's so massive he has a good first punch on anyone. he dropped mir and herring easily, but after that he just does the LNP, although it's effective, but not fight finishing.


It is "fight finishing" -enough when he lands enough hits for referees to stop the fight because of cuts or because he KOs the poor bastard that is taking the hits. Herring's left eye looked pretty damn bad. 

Dunno what is wrong with awesome wrestling mixed with brutal G&P anyway, Sherk does it too succesfully and was one of the most dominant champs of LW for a while. 
As I said earlier being one dimensional isn't a bad thing at all, if I would be that damn strong and so much ahead of everyone else at wrestling I damn sure would wrestle too. What is the point trying to outbox people when instead he can use heavy punches just to back up his take downs and just G&P till TKO, cut or until round ends. 
Being "complete fighter" like GSP, Penn or A. Silva sure is useful too, but like someone mentioned being a one trick pony like Liddell with good submission defense and take down defense supporting his striking can be just as effective, entertaining and valid way to fight as being a versatile all around fighter. 
So basically I don't care if people whine how Lesnar only does this and that. They aren't whining about strikers only trying to stand up either. They whine about Brock for some silly reasons like his WWE career, and a true MMA fans should see the potential Brock actually has.

ps. Im 200€ richer thanks to Brock, YOU could be too. ^^


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## canuckchuck (Oct 15, 2006)

ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!!....BUT.....how can you say "I think he could have done a little bit more then that"? Thats great that YOU think he could've done more but obviously Brock COULDN'T or maybe that was his exact game plan? I just don't understand your reply? It's sorta like me sayin "I...think Eli Manning could've done a little more then that" SO? He attached himself to herring for 13 minutes & smashed his face n body about for said time? AND WON!!! Say he DID "try" to go for subs? He might not have won then right? I just don't believe this particular fight or opponent for that matter would've been the proper time to practice his BJJ. That said, I guess my take is, that for a fighter w/only 3 fights & an excellent veteran like Herring being his opponent, I believe he did exactly what he should have(& surely planned for)& ended up w/a huge victory. I'm just still so confused that YOU think Brock could have done a little bit more?....you mean as opposed to winning? HE WON!!!??? And YES...his celebration was certainly **** erotic & made him look like a stereotypical meat head/white trash/tribal armband tattoo/Affliction Frat boy BUT....when I look back at it I smile & think AAH what the hell? It's his 1st win, against a good fighter in his hometown & on pay per view. It's kinda like he almost couldn't contain himself & it ALL just came out. Months n years of serious training/media/constant questioning of his character & ability. IMO it was sorta nice to see him exude some human emotion because I for one, always viewed him as a some sorta emotionally void robot. You could just tell that he musta been waiting a long ass time to let out that exuberance BUT..next time...smarten up & never taunt your opponent, especially when you just beat him. Herring's human too & DOES have feelings...& as far as BJ goes?.....he can do whatever the hell he wants....like smokin dope/attacking the local Hilo pigs/licking his broken opponents blood & givin that little xtra UMMPHFF when finishing a RNC, because?....he is the sports resident prodigal ambassador who can..as Joe Rogan says...a real lot.....lift one leg & put it behind his head while standing!!!!!And when feeling frisky, give himself a good ol' crotch cleaning while simultaneously triangling his opponent into submission(with, I guess, NO feet on the ground?) I'm done....I guess...sorry 

this is prettt funny stuff :thumb02:


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

I think he's one dimensional because he hardly ever tried to even go for submissions when he had clear opportunities. It looked like he was looking for an Americana at one point, then it's like he forgot how to do it so he gave up.

His wrestling is phenomenal, and his hands appear to be powerful. But really, he's just a faster/stronger version of Kevin Randleman at this point in his career.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with being one dimensional, as many fighters have been successful sticking to their bread and butter. It's just nice to see a myriad of skills, rather than control-based butt-humping without the intent to finish for an entire fight. :dunno:


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## daitrong (May 27, 2007)

valrond said:


> Excellent post, mate, repped.
> 
> The problem is that Lesnar haters see him as a one dimensional gorilla, with no skill and he doesn't belong in MMA.
> 
> ...


Reread your post, it is far from Impartial and far from being an objective analysis of Brock Lesner. I'm pretty much indifferent to both Herring and Brock, but when i see such post about Brock being the best Hw in _anything_, that is such a insult to all the other great HWs in MMA who have Proven time and time again that they are the real deal. 

Brock may be surprisingly quick and agile *for his size*, and arguably one of the better naturally gifted athletes, but he is far from being the best HW athlete in MMA, nor is he the most coordinated or fastest either. From what little we've seen of his abilities or lack there of thus far, who can anyone claim that Brock is the best in anything??? It can be argued that he's the strongest, but strength does not offset or replace lack of skill. Sure, in a couple of years he may become a great contender (like Griffen) butI highly doubt it. Brock is too big headed and thinks too highly of himself to ever reach the same level of achievements like all the other great champions. Just as GSP lost to Serra because he underestimated him, the same will happen to Brock. The reason why champions like Franklin, Fedor, wanderlei, chuck have reigned champ for so long (besides their obvious skill) is that they are alway hungry--never take their opponent for granted. Brock's big head is going to catch up to him sooner or later, and albeit sooner than most of his fans think.

Also, while he may not be completely one dimensional, he is far from being well rounded--he's just a couple steps past one dimensional, but miles away from being a complete fighter like GSP or Fedor.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

johndoe said:


> ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!!....BUT.....how can you say "I think he could have done a little bit more then that"? Thats great that YOU think he could've done more but obviously Brock COULDN'T or maybe that was his exact game plan? I just don't understand your reply? It's sorta like me sayin "I...think Eli Manning could've done a little more then that" SO? He attached himself to herring for 13 minutes & smashed his face n body about for said time? AND WON!!! Say he DID "try" to go for subs? He might not have won then right? I just don't believe this particular fight or opponent for that matter would've been the proper time to practice his BJJ. That said, I guess my take is, that for a fighter w/only 3 fights & an excellent veteran like Herring being his opponent, I believe he did exactly what he should have(& surely planned for)& ended up w/a huge victory. I'm just still so confused that YOU think Brock could have done a little bit more?....you mean as opposed to winning? HE WON!!!??? And YES...his celebration was certainly **** erotic & made him look like a stereotypical meat head/white trash/tribal armband tattoo/Affliction Frat boy BUT....when I look back at it I smile & think AAH what the hell? It's his 1st win, against a good fighter in his hometown & on pay per view. It's kinda like he almost couldn't contain himself & it ALL just came out. Months n years of serious training/media/constant questioning of his character & ability. IMO it was sorta nice to see him exude some human emotion because I for one, always viewed him as a some sorta emotionally void robot. You could just tell that he musta been waiting a long ass time to let out that exuberance BUT..next time...smarten up & never taunt your opponent, especially when you just beat him. Herring's human too & DOES have feelings...& as far as BJ goes?.....he can do whatever the hell he wants....like smokin dope/attacking the local Hilo pigs/licking his broken opponents blood & givin that little xtra UMMPHFF when finishing a RNC, because?....he is the sports resident prodigal ambassador who can..as Joe Rogan says...a real lot.....lift one leg & put it behind his head while standing!!!!!And when feeling frisky, give himself a good ol' crotch cleaning while simultaneously triangling his opponent into submission(with, I guess, NO feet on the ground?) I'm done....I guess...sorry


cocaine is a helluva drug


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## OseiBongu (Aug 11, 2008)

Has anyone considered that maybe Lesnar didn't go for those readily available chokes, because his forearms are too freakin' big and just won't fit under an opponents chin?
No, seriously, I think BL did a good job with the tools he has available to him at this time. And if he learns as fast as he moves, I see him going a long way in MMA. The Frank Mir fight wasn't bad at all imo and let's be honest, Heath Herring is a serious heavyweight and he didn't get a thing done against BL. He'll probably remain "one dimensional" for some time, but, considering he has already excelled in a pretty difficult sport (two, if you approve of the fake wrestling stuff) i'm pretty sure he'll improve. I'll definitely keep watching his fights!


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## Redrum (Jan 30, 2008)

well, i finally got to see at least part of herring versus lesnar, at least the opening punch which was amazing, and the third round. i just want to comment on two things. first, i was wrong in my assessment of heath's extensive experience being a deciding factor. i have to give brock credit here for beating a skilled and experienced mma fighter. this is a HUGE win for him in my opinion. secondly, with regard to his actions at the end of the third, when i saw it it made me laugh. honestly, it just looked like a guy who was really happy and perhaps a little over exuberant having a good time. i didn't get a feeling that he was trying to be disrespectful, but i can see where some might. it was a hell of an accomplishment for him, i don't want to be too harsh on him.


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## BrianRClover (Jan 4, 2008)

It amazes me how so many people will throw the word NEVER around when talking about MMA... it's just plain stupid.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I think alot of people are seriously understatng just how big of an accomplishment the Herring fight is, if any other fighter accomplished as much as Lesnar in 3 fights (ever not 3 pro fights like most fighters) with Lesnars pedigree everyone would be salivating at the mouth and talking about how the sky is the limit but alot of hate is still coming from Brocks WWE days.

You know who Fedors 3rd pro fight was against? Hiroya Takada, who you may ask, Exactly, Anderson Silva's 3rd pro fight?Claudionor Fontinelle. GSP? Travis Galbraith. The 3 guys widely considered to be the best P4P fighters in the world were not fighting opponents anywhere near the caliber of Mir or Herring so early, to write Lesnar off is ridicoulous as there isnt a fighter alive who has risen there level of competition anywhere near as fast as Lesnar.


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## daitrong (May 27, 2007)

Toxic said:


> I think alot of people are seriously understatng just how big of an accomplishment the Herring fight is, if any other fighter accomplished as much as Lesnar in 3 fights (ever not 3 pro fights like most fighters) with Lesnars pedigree everyone would be salivating at the mouth and talking about how the sky is the limit but alot of hate is still coming from Brocks WWE days.
> 
> You know who Fedors 3rd pro fight was against? Hiroya Takada, who you may ask, Exactly, Anderson Silva's 3rd pro fight?Claudionor Fontinelle. GSP? Travis Galbraith. The 3 guys widely considered to be the best P4P fighters in the world were not fighting opponents anywhere near the caliber of Mir or Herring so early, to write Lesnar off is ridicoulous as there isnt a fighter alive who has risen there level of competition anywhere near as fast as Lesnar.


yea, but all of these fighters (A Silva, FEdor, GSP) have been practicing martial arts their entire lives and been in the MMA game when Brock 1st started in WWF. Brock is 31, and just fought his 3rd fight, fedor was 22-23 when he fought his 3rd match. All of the top fighters now are just entering their prime, and had many years to fine tune their skills, when Brock (or if) he enters his prime, he'll be almost 40 years old. Time is working against Brock, and the only way i see him catching up is if he improved 3x as fast as other fighters...which i don't see happening.


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## sub fan (Jan 11, 2008)

Lesnar has a chance to win the title, with that kind of power you can knock anybody out, even Nog... He's also twice as strong as anybody else in the UFC and with the wrestling skill he has as a base, he is a deadly opponent to anyone.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

sub fan said:


> Lesnar has a chance to win the title, with that kind of power you can knock anybody out, even Nog... He's also twice as strong as anybody else in the UFC and with the wrestling skill he has as a base, he is a deadly opponent to anyone.


If you watched Pride and UFC over the years, there are a ton of really strong wrestlers who have not been able to round out their skillset into a real MMA career. Those traits alone are not enough to seal the deal, especially entering the game at thirty having done acting-wrestling for the larger part of your career.


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## rickgellison (Jun 3, 2007)

*Brock criticism a little unfair*

Seems everyone is only talking about his celebrations and not really the fight itself.

As far as the celebrations go, it was a bit ungentleman like but UFC HW division needs someone with a big personality. The kinda guy you either love or hate. Tune in to cheer or tune in to watch get his ass kicked. Anyway, the pointing and laughing was a more of a "you nearly got me there" thing if you ask me. 

To the fight. A different Brock tonight. It was good he didnt finish him. Gave him valuable experience and showed Brock can be composed, against Mir he was too careless and wanted to fight - no strategy. Anyway, he dominated an experienced fighter, showed his wrestling skills and wow what a right hand early on. I think there was one or two instances where he looked like he didnt know what to do next, but he had the fight won, played it safe and it just looked effortless. Oh, loved the flying knee to start things off 

So who next for Brock?


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

I'm actually kind of sad that Sylvia isn't in the UFC anymore cause that would be a great second fight for Brock. A good striker who has fought some of the best grapplers in MMA. I would guess they give him Cheik Congo next although I'd also like to see him fight Cain Velasquez, Antoni Hardonk, or eventuall Werdum, although I think that last fight poses a serious threat.

If he can get through any of those guys he should be next in line for a title shot after Werdum.


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

*Assesment of Brock's Performance - want opinions and input*

Hey guys, just wanted to hear everyones thoughts on Brock, regardless of his showboating....plz don't make this the topic.

So i'll start it up
Stand up: I gotta tell you, i was incredibly impressed with Brock's standup, he was throwing his leg out which seemed to look good. And of course the punch (which i like to call the *FALCON PUNCH* reminscent of Captain Falcon in Supersmash (everytime they showed it, we would say it). There wasn't much stand up so to speak, but i was none-the-less impressed

Clinch: from memory, brock seemed to use the clinch quite well, he may've used it a few times to set up his take downs, but i would need to watch again. BUT, i was extremely impressed by his KNEES. Knees from a big guy like Brock would really hurt, and i thought they Heath was damaged from them.

Takedowns: Only one time heath kept it standing, 4 time NCAA champ says enough,

GnP: the biggest facet of Brock's game. I was impressed and unimpressed by it but it does depend on how you look at it. I was impressed that he was trying to do his utmost to keep Herring from doing anything, he avoided any real attempt by Heath of an offence, and what really also impressed me was that he barely (i think once or twice) let Herring role into guard. He tried numerous times but Brock with his strength kept him on his back. 

Brock's actual Ground and pound was a lot more methodical and he did pick his shots this time as oppose to his fight against MURR. He also utilized a hell of a lot more body shots then going straight to the face. Especially with the knees on the ground.

and of course his ability to maintain a dominant position. While i was immpressed that he was able to keep him on his back, i wasn't impressed that he never ever really went to try and sink the hooks in. I do understand that he was winning from that position and in essence doesn't need to be changed, but if u can finish, then finish. But also, if he did sink the hooks then there could be the possibilty that Heath could roll into guard, but a much more energised Brock i would feel would be able to throw him off.

The thing that annoyed me the most on the ground was when he had mount (twice) he had the hooks under Heath's legs and let go of them and let him roll onto his back....Brock def could've finished with a TKO then.

Conversly, i was really impressed he was able to pass guard so easily, i mean in the 3rd he jumped from full gurrd straight to mount, pretty scary thought for someone who is that size.

I was impressed by his performence, he showed a lot more discipline in the fight then in the one against Mir and with every fight im sure he will superseed his previous fight. He just needs more time and experience before he can be the FORCE he intends to be.

Thoughts?


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## ean6789 (Nov 19, 2006)

I'd say pretty in line wit what i thought of it as well. I was just going crazy at the start of the fight cuz it being pretty much two super heavyweights fighting and Brock just full on sprinting into that tackle after the knockdown. My analysis of it is that Brock can take the fight wherever he wants and get any position he wants but he just needs to know what to do with them. There were so many openings that he made and times he couldve finished it but was just kind of doing some guesswork. 

Overall i was impressed cuz he already has what so many ppl try to attain in there that game being the ability to take it wherever, and the things he needs to fix are indeed very very fixable come his next fight. Plus his striking was pretty good. 

BTW was that a flying knee or just a kick that Brock attempted in the first


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## LeeM (Nov 23, 2007)

daitrong said:


> yea, but all of these fighters (A Silva, FEdor, GSP) have been practicing martial arts their entire lives and been in the MMA game when Brock 1st started in WWF. Brock is 31, and just fought his 3rd fight, fedor was 22-23 when he fought his 3rd match. All of the top fighters now are just entering their prime, and had many years to fine tune their skills, when Brock (or if) he enters his prime, he'll be almost 40 years old. Time is working against Brock, and the only way i see him catching up is if he improved 3x as fast as other fighters...which i don't see happening.


Wasn't Couture 34 when he started?

Brock is going to be able to fight longer than other fighters for the simple reason he started later. While others are starting to fall apart by the time they're 35 Brock will just about be entering his prime.


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

Was a flying Knee i believe, also forgot to mention that, that his Cardio was also really good, looked awesome throughout the whole fight


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

LeeM said:


> Wasn't Couture 34 when he started?
> 
> Brock is going to be able to fight longer than other fighters for the simple reason he started later. While others are starting to fall apart by the time they're 35 Brock will just about be entering his prime.


your body recovers from damage more quickly in your 20's than your 30's, and definitely more quickly than in your 40's. There is no real advantage to starting a sport this late in your life.


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## MalkyBoy (Nov 14, 2007)

I said this in another thread but I felt he just wanted a win there were openings and chances for him to finish the fight but he was in a dominant position aginst Herring who has 16 submission wins. IF he got caught by another sub he was in trouble and would be banished to the prelims and forgotten about.

There was one point where he had a great shot at a RNC but I dont think his arm would fit. He dominated a solid HW, got the win and banished doubts about his conditioning.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> brock doesn't have the balance/flexibility to effectively take someone's back when his oppponent is below him...sherk's the same way...he just doesn't do it


No doubt also there is no need to it is a lot easier to put power in your punches when you are controlling your opponent the way Lesnar did.

Velasquez did the same thing against Morris.


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## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

I agree with the original post...

I think the BIGGEST and most important thing he showed was his ability to stay calm. After the first punch, I expected him to go ape-crazy like on MURR. He possibly could have finished the fight there.

But he didn't, he showed that he can keep the fight slow and methodical...

I was also impressed with his cardio I know he wasn't expending to much effort, as Rogan said a few times, but still impressive for a nearly 300 pound man.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

i think everyone can agree that it was a very solid performance by Brock and I cant believe for a man that size to have that good cardio. That first punch by him was crushing, you could just see the power rippling through Herrings body.


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## NATAS (Jun 30, 2008)

The day Lesnar beats NOG is the day i stop watching MMA. Simple as that lol


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## sk double i (Apr 13, 2007)

I was impressed that he was able to beat herring and it was only his 3rd mma fight. He must be working with some good people.

Other than that I was not impressed at all. That first punch that he landed pretty much dictated the pace of the fight. When you have that much weight behind a punch, anything it hits will cause severe damage, it was unfortunate that it landed flush on herring's face. Other than that, it was pretty pathetic. There were so many opportunities for Lesnar to advance positions but either didnt know how, or chose to lay and prey instead.

His antics at the end of the first round and his speech after the fight left a really sour taste in my mouth. But I understand that he is a showman coming from the WWE so it comes naturally to him to play to the crowd.


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## smooth810 (Apr 13, 2007)

Brock is a freakin beast...Give him 1 more year and he will dominate the ufc....He has more punching power then any UFC heavyweight right now, better wrestling then any UFC heavyweight, He's huge, strong doesn't even descibe him, he has good speed for how big he is...The Major whole in his game is submission skills and being submitted...Right now a fighter like Big Nog would sub him easy...but in a year..Brock might leave him dead in unde a minute..He's only had 3 fights...and 2 of them were top 10 ufc heavyweights...which he shoulda won both if isn't wasn't for the crap stoppage by Mazzagoti with no warning...


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## mikehmike (May 28, 2007)

I think brock did awesome and its rapidly growing to one of my fav fighters believe it or not...I was totally against him at first. Only thing I saw was he could have gotten a kimura at one point and that bull rush was kinda crazy


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

I thought he looked pretty solid! I kept wondering why he wasnt trying to finish the fight then I started to think he may be doing that on purpose just to batter up herring.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Big isn't a skill.

I think he wanted a safe win so he focused exclusive on brawler/wrestler tactics. Those tactics worked for him and are his strengths, but he should have been able to put Herring away. As far as not using a RNC because his arms are too big; his trainers should have him using the modified version that works towards a jaw dislocation/neck crank (pain submission) versus the choke.

From his current showing, I'm not entirely convinced that he'll do much in the sport. Big isn't a skill, and when someone who is his size and skilled in more facets of MMA than wrestling, he'll become a gatekeeper.

He will be the Matt Hughes of the heavyweight division, eventually the physical prowess of the competitors will catch him up and exploit his weaknesses. Now if he were to learn a few submissions such as a kimura, modified RNC, short arm-bar, etc, he would show a lot more promise.

He is still very fresh into MMA, and if he can put ego aside he would have a definite place in the UFC. 

Personally I don't like him at all. Herring didn't quit and Lesnar couldn't finish him. Lesnar should have shown due respect to his opponent. If he wants to bring such poor sportsmanship into MMA; I hope his career is short lived.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

He is good enough at this point to drop everything and train jitz. I think he needs to do that for about 6 months and then start talking about more fights. He really held himself back because of his poor jits. When you odminate a fight like that and can't finish it, you need to do work.

I was not really surprised that Heath got dominated honestly because Heath loses to better fighters. Brock is excelling on athleticism right now and that is scary. I would love to see how much better he becomes in his next fight and intrigued to see him go against someone better then Herring. I would love to see him adn Velasquez go at it, but I don't think the UFC would match them up because they are both up and comers.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

MalkyBoy said:


> I said this in another thread but *I felt he just wanted a win there were openings and chances for him to finish the fight but he was in a dominant position aginst Herring who has 16 submission wins. IF he got caught by another sub he was in trouble and would be banished to the prelims and forgotten about.*
> 
> There was one point where he had a great shot at a RNC but I dont think his arm would fit. He dominated a solid HW, got the win and banished doubts about his conditioning.


I would agree with this. He knew he could hold him there and dominate him, with little risk of submission. It was boring as hell to watch, but very smart on Brock's part. 

That is one sign of a good competitor, being able to recognize your weaknesses vs. your opponents strengths and do everything possible to stay out of those situations. 

I give Brock a ton of credit for this fight. As I was saying during the 2nd and 3rd round, if he ever developed solid BJJ, he would be an absolute force to be reckoned with.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

NATAS said:


> The day Lesnar beats NOG is the day i stop watching MMA. Simple as that lol


so if a physical specimen and natural athlete like Lesner were to train enough to beat Nog that would kill your love for the sport?


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

He is though, for his size no-one can match his speed, athleticism and reflexes that I have seen.

You failed to mention any heavyweight in MMA we could put above him in terms of his athletic ability in your post....


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

Fieos said:


> Big isn't a skill.
> 
> I think he wanted a safe win so he focused exclusive on brawler/wrestler tactics. Those tactics worked for him and are his strengths, but he should have been able to put Herring away. As far as not using a RNC because his arms are too big; his trainers should have him using the modified version that works towards a jaw dislocation/neck crank (pain submission) versus the choke.
> 
> ...


Do you mean the Long time WW Champion Matt Hughes? The one that's 42-7, the one with like 9 title defenses? :confused02:

I guess I understand what you're saying, but please don't cheapen what Matt has done. He was a great Champ for many years.


Let's liken Brock to more of a...more famous Jake O'Brien. :thumbsup:


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

Brock Lesnar > Jake O Brien

Just watch their fights against Herring......


The biggest thing that this fight showed us IMO was that Brock has great Cardio, which a lot of people were doubting.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Chrisl972 said:


> Do you mean the Long time WW Champion Matt Hughes? The one that's 42-7, the one with like 9 title defenses? :confused02:
> 
> I guess I understand what you're saying, but please don't cheapen what Matt has done. He was a great Champ for many years.
> 
> ...



I think it is a mostly fair comparison. Matt Hughes came onto the MMA scene as a wrestling and athletic phenom. There simply wasn't competition that could deal with him athletically. Eventually the sport caught up to Matt and the competitors became equally athletic and he is now a gate-keeper. 

I'm not a Matt Hughes fan but I do respect his accomplishments. I think Lesnar will have a very successful MMA career, but I think he should be working Vale Tudo extensively as the sport is quickly progressing. Matt Hughes is a great fighter; but I don't think he was ever at his full potential, despite his impressive record.

Lesnar has not yet achieved the versatility of Matt Hughes in Matt's early career. I think he has further to go and less time to do in.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

Suizida said:


> Was a flying Knee i believe, also forgot to mention that, that his Cardio was also really good, looked awesome throughout the whole fight


I've said it before I'll say it again.

Brock could throw at 100% for 3 rounds without getting gassed. The man is a serious athlete.


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## enufced904 (Jul 17, 2008)

I'm not a huge fan of him, but compared to his fight again Mir I saw a vast improvement... He does need to work on his BJJ a bit (like everyone is saying)... He had Herring's back so many times. I wasn't sure if he just didn't want to submit him and keep hammering on him or because he didn't know how to. Anyhow, kudos to Lesnar. We'll see how he does in his next bout.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

I have to say that, though he won, I wasn't impressed with Lesnar's performance, and all of the submission fighters in the heavyweight division are probably feeling pretty safe right now.

Honestly, I'm a little pissed at all of the idiots who think that Lesnar is going to be the future of the UFC heavyweight division after that performance. So he got on top of Herring and pounded on him a little... so did Jake O'Brien, and I don't see anyone calling O'Brien the future of the division.

In fairness, Lesnar provides a challenge to a few fighters. He presents problems for Cain Velasquez, who I think is the best prospect in the division.

Since you looked over the facets of his game, I'll walk you through what I wasn't impressed with. Obviously, his strength, size and athleticism are impressive. Any idiot can see that, but from a technical standpoint, he needs to really reevaluate his gameplan. Here's what Brock Lesnar should do before his next fight.

*Step One:* Go to American Top Team, or go to train with Barnett or one of the better teams that has a substantial submission-grappling heavyweight he can work with. Have him work with Jeff Monson or Barnett or Randy Couture and show him the ropes of a good submission game, so that he can develop his submission game and, more importantly, his submission defense.

*Step Two:* Work the guard passes. Lots of fighters can do damage from in the guard, but Lesnar's build (his low center of gravity and long arms) are conducive to the Fedor style standing groundnpound, so it makes no sense that he should sit in the guard and swing, opening himself up to armbars and triangles, when he can throw bombs from the open guard and work the toreando. He may never get that groundnpound to Fedor's level, but it will help him work around alot of the jiu-jitsu guys in this division who would love to put him in their guard and submit him.

*Step Three:* Start working submissions from the side control. He can cultivate a powerful submission game off of his wrestling, and working with a guy like Jeff Monson (who I really do think is the best fighter to teach Brock to grapple), will open alot of doors. If Brock starts passing guys guards, like he did in his first right, using the toreando and landing in side control, he will probably find that he can use his wrestling and his physical power to muscle in kimuras and americanas and he can use that wrestlers ability to move around the top of opponents to catch arm triangles and north/south chokes. I've worked with alot of wrestlers and, as soon as I show them those moves, I find they have an innate ability to move into a position where the isolate the upper body and catch these submissions.

*Step Four:* Learn to check the leg kick, and to shoot off of that block. This is going to be his biggest problem with the top kickboxers in the division, and it's going to be where they try and hurt him and keep him at range. While I don't think that kickboxers are going to present a serious problem for Lesnar, I do think that it's worth recognizing that Lesnar can work a lot on some of the defensive aspects of his standup that can be exploited. This little defense is, as far as I'm concerned, Lesnar's best defense to any kickboxer, and if he gets it down, he'll start finishing standup fighters on the ground pretty easily.

So, that's my two cents. Take it for what it's worth. I don't like Brock much and don't expect him to do any of these things. If he does, I know that he's got capacity. He's a great athlete, but I hate watching him coast on his athleticism, because he can be better, and he should be.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

daitrong said:


> yea, but all of these fighters (A Silva, FEdor, GSP) have been practicing martial arts their entire lives and been in the MMA game when Brock 1st started in WWF. Brock is 31, and just fought his 3rd fight, fedor was 22-23 when he fought his 3rd match. All of the top fighters now are just entering their prime, and had many years to fine tune their skills, when Brock (or if) he enters his prime, he'll be almost 40 years old. Time is working against Brock, and the only way i see him catching up is if he improved 3x as fast as other fighters...which i don't see happening.


 The fact that Brock is fighting and winning at this level of competition so early in his career proves that he is improving that much faster then everyon else.



HexRei said:


> If you watched Pride and UFC over the years, there are a ton of really strong wrestlers who have not been able to round out their skillset into a real MMA career. Those traits alone are not enough to seal the deal, especially entering the game at thirty having done acting-wrestling for the larger part of your career.


 Brocks "fake" wrestling has given him the benefit that he is in phenomnal shape as his conditioning and strength training has always remained constant, I would love to know what big strong wrestler you would compare Lesnar to as none that I can think of had Lesnar's freakish speed and agility as well as his rapid rate of improvment, for a guy to get a win over Heath Herring in his 3rd fight is incredible.


LeeM said:


> Wasn't Couture 34 when he started?
> 
> Brock is going to be able to fight longer than other fighters for the simple reason he started later. While others are starting to fall apart by the time they're 35 Brock will just about be entering his prime.


 Im not with you on this one, Lesnar's pro wrestling days will take a much worse toll on his body than training and fighting those years would have.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

I think Lesnar fought great and I don't mind his antics after the fight. What I DO mind are those knees to the kidney. Those are really dangerous. And I can't understand how the referee didn't see it.


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

enufced904 said:


> I'm not a huge fan of him, but compared to his fight again Mir I saw a vast improvement... He does need to work on his BJJ a bit (like everyone is saying)... He had Herring's back so many times. I wasn't sure if he just didn't want to submit him and keep hammering on him or because he didn't know how to. Anyhow, kudos to Lesnar. We'll see how he does in his next bout.


I agree. However, I can understand why he didn't go for the hooks and the RNC. I'm pretty sure they have analyzed his fights, and have seen how HH avoided the RNC and hooks from Nogueira and ended up on his back. Worst place for Lesnar is on his back.

What I don't is why didn't he try to finish when he mounted Herring (twice, if I remember exactly). I mean, he may not get it, but there isn't much that Herring can do there to turn the tables.


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## Chrisl972 (Oct 5, 2006)

I see him as being VERY one dimensional. He has fantastic wrestling, but he does very little with the control once he gets them down. His GnP was pretty bad when you consider the amount of control he was able to show, and yet wasn't able to control Heath to positions that really worked for Brocks GnP.

Being able to punch someone doesn't make you a striker. It's not like a wrestler can't swing his arms. Did he have fast hands, yes. But that's the only real punch that stood out to me. I don't remember anything else being thrown by him that looked good. 

He did really hurt Heath in the clinch with those knees, I'll give him full credit there, but once again, that doesn't make him a striker. 

I would have really liked to have seen Brock get away from the "Control" part of the game and get into the fighting part of it. He just seemed to have the "wrestler's" mindset of pointing the other fighter. To me, THAT is the biggest part of him being one dimensional. 

Once he gets that mindset out of the way, he'll get well rounded pretty quickly.


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## Rubiness (Jun 27, 2006)

I actually think Brock would beat Nog. I know there isn't a whole lot of people agreeing me but it's just my opinion. I think by time he faces Nog he'll have improved his ground game with a steep learning curve.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

IronMan said:


> I have to say that, though he won, I wasn't impressed with Lesnar's performance, and all of the submission fighters in the heavyweight division are probably feeling pretty safe right now.
> 
> Honestly, I'm a little pissed at all of the idiots who think that Lesnar is going to be the future of the UFC heavyweight division after that performance. So he got on top of Herring and pounded on him a little... so did Jake O'Brien, and I don't see anyone calling O'Brien the future of the division.
> 
> ...


I don't really know how much Brock has to worry about the triangle. I think he's more than capable of doing the Rampage style Triangle escape (powerbomb).

I think he will work on his sub game.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

If Nog can beat someone bigger than Lesnar (Sapp), then Nog can beat Lesnar.

Sapp tossed Nog around like a rag dool, and landed huge punches on Nog. But guess who won in the end?


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

^^ comparing brock and sapp is like comparing Brock to Kimbo Slice, one is an experienced professional athlete, the other is a novelty act.

This thread assumes Lesnar will stay at the same skillset forever, when in fact he is improving at a staggeringly fast rate. In a years time if he keeps improving at this rate he'll beat most anyone I can think of. He's already passed a lot of guys who have been in the sport for many years(eg. Kongo) so just wait and see.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Freelancer said:


> I think Lesnar fought great and I don't mind his antics after the fight. What I DO mind are those knees to the kidney. Those are really dangerous. And I can't understand how the referee didn't see it.


Although I went for Brock to win feel kinda bad for Heath. It was a lose lose situation. Should have been Coleman, too bad he got injured. Coleman should be next.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

I would love to see Brock doing some pro wrestling moves in octagon. Some German Suplexes perhaps. And BTW, I don't think he can beat Nog.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

Freelancer said:


> I would love to see Brock doing some pro wrestling moves in octagon. Some German Suplexes perhaps. And BTW, I don't think he can beat Nog.


he COULD but that doesn't mean he WOULD. Big difference between those words.

he's got the physique. He's got some game. Now he just needs to expand and grow as a fighter and he could be a contender.


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## Scarecrow (Mar 20, 2008)

tecnotut said:


> *If Nog can beat someone bigger than Lesnar (Sapp), then Nog can beat Lesnar.*
> 
> Sapp tossed Nog around like a rag dool, and landed huge punches on Nog. But guess who won in the end?


Sapp is a freak show with ZERO talent in MMA. He has heavy hands, but gasses in the first 2 minutes of his fight. Comparing Sapp to Lesnar is insulting.

Now I know that Nog is incredible and I would definitely put money on him if he were to fight Lesnar. But lets not discount how freakishly athletic Lesnar is. This would be a serious challenge for Nog even if they were to fight next month.


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> Why THE HELL are people calling Brock one dimensional?


becouse he is.

seriously... he just runs down his opponents ( litteraly ) and hammers them with hammerfists.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

69nites said:


> he COULD but that doesn't mean he WOULD. Big difference between those words.
> 
> he's got the physique. He's got some game. Now he just needs to expand and grow as a fighter and he could be a contender.


You're right, He could, but I don't think he will.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

Freelancer said:


> You're right, He could, but I don't think he will.


only time will tell that one. If he were to expand his skillset to be as good as his athletic ability it would be hard for me to pick anyone over him.

you don't get in his physical condition without having serious commitment to train.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

Chrisl972 said:


> I see him as being VERY one dimensional. He has fantastic wrestling, but he does very little with the control once he gets them down. His GnP was pretty bad when you consider the amount of control he was able to show, and yet wasn't able to control Heath to positions that really worked for Brocks GnP.
> 
> Being able to punch someone doesn't make you a striker. It's not like a wrestler can't swing his arms. Did he have fast hands, yes. But that's the only real punch that stood out to me. I don't remember anything else being thrown by him that looked good.
> 
> ...


I think heavy and fast hands with a clinch that hurt a veteran who actually looked like he was in real good shape makes him at the minimum a decent striker. He might not be a striker who's going to finish fights standing but I think he will be able to hold his own with some of the best long enough to get it to the ground.


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## cabby (Sep 15, 2006)

valrond said:


> That assumes that Big Nog will be UFC champ forever and nobody will beat him.


Thats what I'm saying


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## southpaw447 (Mar 21, 2007)

Great Post 10/10 would read again


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## Clivey (May 28, 2007)

I don't care what anybody says, I enjoyed watching the Lesner fight way more than the GSP fight. GSP has gone BORING!!


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

69nites said:


> I don't really know how much Brock has to worry about the triangle. I think he's more than capable of doing the Rampage style Triangle escape (powerbomb).
> 
> I think he will work on his sub game.


If he tries that against Nogueira, he'll get his arm broken by an armbar. Same goes for Werdum and Gonzaga. Arona made a mistake, it doesn't happen very often. I don't see Brock, as strong as he is, pulling that off.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

Chrisl972 said:


> Let's liken Brock to more of a...more famous Jake O'Brien. :thumbsup:


This is what I am thinking too, and the only difference I think between the two fights is Lesnar landed a big punch which I don't remember O'Brien doing.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

IronMan said:


> If he tries that against Nogueira, he'll get his arm broken by an armbar. Same goes for Werdum and Gonzaga. Arona made a mistake, it doesn't happen very often. I don't see Brock, as strong as he is, pulling that off.


I know I'd like to .


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## Jewbacca (May 22, 2008)

Brock Lesnar is awesome. He was going CB Dolloway on his ass..


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

He throws one punch, and all of the sudden he's a good striker?


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

69nites said:


> I know I'd like to .


Sure. The pro-wrestling flair is nice and the KO is cool, but I'm just saying that it's probably not going to happen.



The Legend said:


> This is what I am thinking too, and the only difference I think between the two fights is Lesnar landed a big punch which I don't remember O'Brien doing.


Yeah, but in fairness, O'Brien looked alot better in his loss than Lesnar did. Lesnar was on top of Mir, sure, but O'Brien never seriously looked like he was going to be finished, in my mind.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

IronMan said:


> Yeah, but in fairness, O'Brien looked alot better in his loss than Lesnar did. Lesnar was on top of Mir, sure, but O'Brien never seriously looked like he was going to be finished, in my mind.


I'm confused, what fights are you talking about? I was comparing Brock's and Jake's wins over Herring.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

IronMan said:


> Sure. The pro-wrestling flair is nice and the KO is cool, but I'm just saying that it's probably not going to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but in fairness, O'Brien looked alot better in his loss than Lesnar did. Lesnar was on top of Mir, sure, but O'Brien never seriously looked like he was going to be finished, in my mind.


he is strong enough for the lift and as long as he's smart about the slam he's pretty safe.

An arm bar on lesnar is going to be easier said than done.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

tecnotut said:


> He throws one punch, and all of the sudden he's a good striker?


I'm sorry, but who is saying Brock is a good striker?


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## chilo (May 27, 2007)

Clivey said:


> I don't care what anybody says, I enjoyed watching the Lesner fight way more than the GSP fight. GSP has gone BORING!!


i find it funny that you say GSP was boring... brock laying on heaths backside and doing nothing for 15 mins was boring as hell.



> I'm sorry, but who is saying Brock is a good striker?
> __________________


everyone in this thread that are praising his nuts.:confused02:


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

The Legend said:


> I'm confused, what fights are you talking about? I was comparing Brock's and Jake's wins over Herring.


I'm talking about their losses. Jake's loss to Arlovski and Brock's loss to Mir.



69nites said:


> he is strong enough for the lift and as long as he's smart about the slam he's pretty safe.
> 
> An arm bar on lesnar is going to be easier said than done.


Coming from Werdum, Gonzaga or Nog, it won't matter. The drastic size difference is dwarfed by the incredible difference in skill.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

TheNegation said:


> I'm sorry, but who is saying Brock is a good striker?


If he's well-rounded, then what else is he good at other than wrestling?


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

chilo said:


> i find it funny that you say GSP was boring... brock laying on heaths backside and doing nothing for 15 mins was boring as hell.


Exactly. After GSP made a spinning back hand and a spinning back kick, I remember telling my buddy that we won't see Lesnar doing that.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

tecnotut said:


> If he's well-rounded, then what else is he good at other than wrestling?


You don't have top be "good" at anything to not be one-dimensional.


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## FedorsFan (Jul 19, 2008)

...because he really is. I mean have you seen anything besides wrestling (and average wrestling at that) from him during his MMA bouts? You could especially see his "one-sidedness" during his bout with Mir.


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## r00kie (Jul 8, 2008)

I agree I may have underestimated Brock. I thought they would exchange some hits standing up (wich they did not).. I just realized how big this guy was he looked 2x the size of herring on the ground.. 

There was nothing much Herring could do, and Brock did not manage to finish him (that was suprising for me) 

I think that standing up, Brock would of lost.. Herring got surprised by his early round fury, that 1st punch was the only thing he did well.. Than the rhino run at him was pathetic.

Props to Brock for being big and strong though.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

TheNegation said:


> You don't have top be "good" at anything to not be one-dimensional.


You didn't answer my question. What else is he good at? The answer is "nothing else". So if he's good at only one thing, then he's one-dimensional. 

If someone sucks at submissions, strikes, and grappling, and tries to use all three styles,
then that person is neither "multi-dimensional" -- he just sucks.


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## r00kie (Jul 8, 2008)

*Brock Lesnar : future*

Even though I really dislike the guy, I think he can probably go pretty far through the HW division.

BUT, I see him winning in very boring fights (the only exciting moment was the first 20 seconds of the fight + some knees against heath)

With his size and strenght I think we'll see him "lay and pray" alot. I was not particularly impressed by his ground game. He did keep Heath down pretty well, but never tried to sub him or never did anything special.

I may start to like him when he decides to trade some punches standing up. That would be really interesting but really unrealistic since he did not seemed confident to stand up with Heath. 

What do you guys think ?

Will we see a future contender ? Do you really think his fighting style is interesting ? Did you really enjoy this fight ? 

Personnally I appreciated to see Brock act like a total prick during the fight. Aside from that, the fight was kind of boring.


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## Uchaaa (Apr 22, 2007)

Btw, is there a post fight conference with herring? I really want to hear what he has to say.


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## A Rich Ace (May 1, 2008)

His boring fight was a smart fight. We have come to realize none of Lesnar's weaknesses. Right now he is a scary, up and coiming fighter. I think his next fight should be someone like Kongo. They are both big and powerful and both like to stand up.


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## ROCKBASS03 (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm confused as to what lay and pray is. I am in no way a Brock fan as he has little experience to know much about him. However, I did watch his fights with Mir and Herring. I don't know where the lay and pray comes in. He tried to do what he could. 

I am curious how impressed you expected to be. This was his 3rd fight. Have you ever watched an amatuer MMA event? Were you impressed by very many of them? I wouldn't expect to be very impressed by anyone with a wrestling background in their 3rd MMA fight. Maybe that's just me though:dunno:

I think if his game can evolve more, he may one day be a contender. Unless the UFC gets more good HW, he will get a shot eventually. Is his fighting style interesting? Well for me, I like to see a guy come in hitting hard and jumping on them trying to pound them some more.....so yes it's interesting. Is it the best? No. Can he win every fight that way? No. No, I didn't enjoy this fight overall. Brock did some damage and some of that was good, but overall not a lot to enjoy. Keep him in the game learning other elements and his fights will get better.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

IronMan said:


> I'm talking about their losses. Jake's loss to Arlovski and Brock's loss to Mir.


Oh ok I never saw the loss part:thumbsup: I agree too.


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

> I may start to like him when he decides to trade some punches standing up. That would be really interesting but really unrealistic since he did not seemed confident to stand up with Heath.


There is very few wrestlers and BJJ guys that would stand up and bang with Herring either.
In my opinion Lesnar's G&P was brutal. Knees, hammer fists and heavy hits from side control were awesome. 
What I hoped to see though was him sinking the leg hooks better when he got mount, and start landing some shots. He didn't take the back or hold mount properly, and changed from better position to worse one couple of times for no reason.
It was still far from "lay and pray" though, just see Herring's messed up face. His left eye looked horrible and I wouldn't have been surprised if the fight would have stopped because of it. Entertaining fight atleast in my opinion for sure though.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

lesnar needs to keep smashing dude's with knee's to the body from side control....


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## Meshuggeth (May 26, 2008)

Those knees were brutal. I was thinking he could seriously damage Heath's back or break some ribs. Reminded me of Arona vs Sakuraba.


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## Shamrock-Ortiz (Sep 22, 2006)

A Rich Ace said:


> His boring fight was a smart fight. We have come to realize none of Lesnar's weaknesses. Right now he is a scary, up and coiming fighter. I think his next fight should be someone like Kongo. They are both big and powerful and both like to stand up.


Your messin?

We have seen plenty of Lesnar's weaknesses.

And Lesnar likes to stand up?

He could of stood up plenty of times in that fight and traded with Heath, but he didn't, it was his choice where that fight went. If he wouldn't strike with Heath, why would he strike with Kongo?


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## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

FedorsFan said:


> ...because he really is. I mean have you seen anything besides wrestling (and average wrestling at that) from him during his MMA bouts? You could especially see his "one-sidedness" during his bout with Mir.


Woah

Lesnar with AVERAGE wrestling?

:confused02:


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## r00kie (Jul 8, 2008)

Shamrock-Ortiz said:


> Your messin?
> 
> We have seen plenty of Lesnar's weaknesses.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I agree with you.. I think that Brock has a tough time controlling his own body, hes powerfull and explosive but looks very clumsy and uncalculated.. 

I found that his "flying knee" was pretty funny I dont know how people can give him props for that was he even 1 meter close to connecting ? lol


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## Curly (Aug 20, 2007)

rickgellison said:


> UFC HW division needs someone with a big personality. The kinda guy you either love or hate.



I couldn't agree more. Well said. :thumb02:


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## headxsmasher (Apr 23, 2007)

I donno if brock likes all these dudes all over his nuts. 

Really, he's won a single fight. Ok he beat Heath who is a decent fighter but lets not turn Brock into a Kimbo Slice. Please god no.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Actually, how bout Brock vs Shane Carwin?


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

rickgellison said:


> As far as the celebrations go, it was a bit ungentleman like but UFC HW division needs someone with a big personality. The kinda guy you either love or hate. Tune in to cheer or tune in to watch get his ass kicked.


When did the UFC turn into the WWE? Why do you have to tune in to see someone with get their ass kicked? Yeah personality is good but I care more about watching a good fight and less about what some says pre/post fight.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

championfighter said:


> WWE> Pride
> 
> Proving again to hardcore MMA fans that the organization was overrated Former Pride heavyweight Heath Herring was beaten and almost raped by former WWE champion Brock Lesner


Are you ******* kidding? Why are you comparing an athletic acting crew to an MMA organization? That's like comparing American Gladiators to UFC. 

Let's face it, Nog or Fedor would destroy Lesnar. So I guess that makes Pride better.


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## dutch sauce (Sep 24, 2006)

you guys realize that he has only had 3 fights right?


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

IronMan, I agree in most of what you said, but there is something that bothers me. You said that Lesnar has to work on improving position and passing the guard, not sitting in the guard for a weak GnP. And I wonder, did you watch the fight?. I just watched UFC 87 for a second time with a friend, and I didn't see Lesnar in the full guard of Herring AT ALL. He stayed for about 10 seconds in half guard at most, going back to side control. He basically had side control, the back, or mounted (3 times) during the whole fight. I think he knows how to improve his position. Vs Mir he has in side control all of the fight, except when he entered his guard and got caught, obviously. He has learned not to stay in the full guard and keep control. And from side control I don't see anyone pulling any kind of sub on Lesnar.

Oh, btw, taking into account your vast knowledge of MMA, specially compared to mine, do you know of other fights when the winner manhandled the loser on the ground without going to full guard and staying almost the whole match with side control/full mount/back control? If you do, please, tell me which ones. I haven't seen one except for Lesnar's fight.

He has learned a couple of things from the Mir fight:

1-To throw a punch in a way that hurts (even he's not a striker by far, but he can throw punches).

2-To not stay in the guard of another guy with some kind of submission game (16/28 wins by submission in the case of Herring). To keep side and back control at all times.

What he has to improve is to take advantage of the position and learn to finish the fight, at the very least, when mounting, where you only have to rain punches with all the leverage to end the fight.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

rickgellison said:


> Seems everyone is only talking about his celebrations and not really the fight itself.
> 
> As far as the celebrations go, it was a bit ungentleman like but UFC HW division needs someone with a big personality. The kinda guy you either love or hate. Tune in to cheer or tune in to watch get his ass kicked. Anyway, the pointing and laughing was a more of a "you nearly got me there" thing if you ask me.
> 
> ...


Given the fact that these fighters are human beings and thus have a multitude of personalities, I try to pay more attention to the fights and less to any antics anyways. The fight is what is important and anyone who complains about things like this are simply looking for a way to crap all over a fighter because they don't like the image they project. I for one think Brock deserves a ton of credit, irrelevant of how he acted. I'm there to watch an ***kicking and he delivered and proved he was the better man. PERIOD.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

championfighter said:


> You probably were saying the same thing about Heath before the other night. Brock beat Heath 10 times worse than Nog did. Maybe Brock will start a WWE invasion like a new NWO.


lol! are you for real?


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

HexRei said:


> Are you ******* kidding? Why are you comparing an athletic acting crew to an MMA organization? That's like comparing American Gladiators to UFC.
> 
> Let's face it, Nog or Fedor would destroy Lesnar. So I guess that makes Pride better.


Lesnar would kill Nog and probably Fedor if he gets a good 6fights behind him.


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## Alkhir (Mar 3, 2008)

The only things I didn't liked in his performance was the lay and pray...way too much of it.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Lesnar would kill Nog and probably Fedor if he gets a good 6fights behind him.


No he wouldn't. Nog would tap him by the second round if not earlier and Fedor would either knock him out or submit him with an armbar from his back.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Lesnar would kill Nog and probably Fedor if he gets a good 6fights behind him.



If you say so... I think either of these guys could sub lesnar.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

Another Brock Lesnar thread? God damn


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

Alkhir said:


> The only things I didn't liked in his performance was the lay and pray...way too much of it.


Yes, I didn't like it either. The Ape Lesnar is more exciting, but until he learns good sub defense, this style is better for getting wins. He needed to win here in order to be seen as legit.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

Benge said:


> I have to disagree. I can see Brock using his brute strength to lay on top of Nogueira for 5 straight rounds for the title. I'm not saying I like the idea, I absolutely ABHOR it(!), but I'm not saying it's impossible.


Brock would kill Nog. Period.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Brock would kill Nog. Period.


Why??


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Brocks "fake" wrestling has given him the benefit that he is in phenomnal shape as his conditioning and strength training has always remained constant, I would love to know what big strong wrestler you would compare Lesnar to as none that I can think of had Lesnar's freakish speed and agility as well as his rapid rate of improvment, for a guy to get a win over Heath Herring in his 3rd fight is incredible.


Dude, Jake OBrien beat Heath Herring with a very similar strategy, and O'Brien has a skillset virtually identical to Brock's, although Brock is bigger and stronger. Heath just sucks at dealing with stronger wrestlers than himself. What do you think will happen when Brock runs into a guy like Nog that does very well on his back against guys that are bigger and stronger than himself? I see Brock tapping out.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

tecnotut said:


> You didn't answer my question. What else is he good at? The answer is "nothing else". So if he's good at only one thing, then he's one-dimensional.
> 
> If someone sucks at submissions, strikes, and grappling, and tries to use all three styles,
> then that person is neither "multi-dimensional" -- he just sucks.


I didn't answer your question, so what? You didn't answer mine
And no, you don't have to be "good" to be considered more than a one dimensional fighter. Brock showed that he can at least throw a punch in his last fight, and also some knees in the clinch and some leg kicks. He doesn't have to be good, he just has to get by, average striking will do.

Plus, it's too soon to make a judgement anyway on his striking.


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## ShaolinMilk (Feb 3, 2008)

Way too many BL thread's!

But anyways, I agree with you about the personality part. You either hate him or love him. It should bring more attention to non mma fans. Now imagine the UFC being as big as the WWE. That would be insane!


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

Lay and Pray has completely lost it's meaning....


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

HexRei said:


> If you say so... I think either of these guys could sub lesnar.


Well he may never fight Fedor but when he beats Nog I'll definately say I told you so.


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## sworddemon (Feb 4, 2007)

Lesnar almost looked like he had some class after the Mir fight...what happened?! Riding Herring like a bull, pushing him like a school yard tough guy, and taunting him? You would think someone who has literally accomplished nothing in this sport would be a little more classy, especially after a less-than-convincing win. 

I for one will definitely be cheering against him.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Well he may never fight Fedor but when he beats Nog I'll definately say I told you so.


Too bad that'll never happen. Brock may be decent but he is way too one dimensional to beat Nog. He won't be able to hold on to him like he did to Herring. Nog would sub Lesnar with no problem.


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## Wanna-be (Apr 23, 2007)

Freelancer said:


> I think Lesnar fought great and I don't mind his antics after the fight. What I DO mind are those knees to the kidney. Those are really dangerous. And I can't understand how the referee didn't see it.


There's no rule dis-allowing knees to the body of a downed opponent, only spot they can't knee each other when they're on the ground is the head.

EDIT; I blame it on the alchol ;p.


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## cabby (Sep 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> Brock would kill Nog. Period.


Big Nog's recovery time is insane, If Brock can't stop Herring he wouldn't stop Nog. Brock gets subbed:thumbsup:


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Wanna-be said:


> There's no rule dis-allowing knees to the body of a downed opponent, only spot they can't knee each other when they're on the ground is the head.


Actually knees to the spine, which is where Brock was kneeing Heath, are illegal.



> Fouls:
> 1. Butting with the head.
> 2. Eye gouging of any kind.
> 3. Biting.
> ...


http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules#section3


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

dutch sauce said:


> you guys realize that he has only had 3 fights right?


And? He has tons of wrestling experience which is amplified by his monster strenght. Him having had only 3 fights makes his both UFC fights even more impressive. He could be fighting mediocre strikers with zero ground game and ride on his name. Instead his first fight in UFC was against former heavy weight champion who freakin broke Sylvia's arm, second fight was against a PRIDE legend with tons of impressive wins and experience. 
Those of us who are hyped up about his performance aren't pretending him to be the the next big thing (pun intented ) of UFC instantly, we are impressed how quickly he is picking up new things and how a guy fighting his 3rd MMA fight can dominate a top 10 HW guy like Herring just like that.
I for sure am waiting for more from Brock, and Im curious to see how quickly he can add submissions into his brutal ground game. He is talented athlete like GSP and will surely meet Nog in tittle match in next 2 years.


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

TheNegation said:


> Lay and Pray has completely lost it's meaning....


Seriously, people throw that term around far to much. Was I the only one that saw Brock punching and kneeing Herring on the ground? Herrings face was a mess, that typically doesn't happen from Lay and Gay.


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

It is to soon, the only times he has had to use it, he floored his opponents with one punch. If it isn't really good, it certainly is at least acceptable.


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## 69nites (Jul 28, 2008)

he's proved that even tho he isn't a technical striker (as of yet) he is very dangerous.

as for the "one dimensional" or "well rounded" argument. Those are too black and white. I wouldn't call him one dimensional. He looked very different in his second fight from his first one. He maintained his brute strength style just like all fighters maintain their styles.

He's not well rounded but he's not one dimensional either


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

valrond said:


> IronMan, I agree in most of what you said, but there is something that bothers me. You said that Lesnar has to work on improving position and passing the guard, not sitting in the guard for a weak GnP. And I wonder, did you watch the fight?. I just watched UFC 87 for a second time with a friend, and I didn't see Lesnar in the full guard of Herring AT ALL. He stayed for about 10 seconds in half guard at most, going back to side control. He basically had side control, the back, or mounted (3 times) during the whole fight. I think he knows how to improve his position. Vs Mir he has in side control all of the fight, except when he entered his guard and got caught, obviously. He has learned not to stay in the full guard and keep control. And from side control I don't see anyone pulling any kind of sub on Lesnar.


I'm just speaking generally. It wasn't a problem against Lesnar, but it's something he needs to consider for fighting Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighters.



> Oh, btw, taking into account your vast knowledge of MMA, specially compared to mine, do you know of other fights when the winner manhandled the loser on the ground without going to full guard and staying almost the whole match with side control/full mount/back control? If you do, please, tell me which ones. I haven't seen one except for Lesnar's fight.


Sure. Randy did it to Sylvia for most of their fight, if I remember right (though I know there was one point where he was in the half guard).

Fedor used to do alot of easy toreando guard passing in his early fights, and did it against Schilt, though his mount was heavy enough that he didn't have to move around too much.

There are plenty of others, but these are the ones that came to my mind first. Monson has a few of those, but he generally pulls out the submission pretty easily once he passes the guard.



> He has learned a couple of things from the Mir fight:


If he didn't there would be alot of problems.



> 1-To throw a punch in a way that hurts (even he's not a striker by far, but he can throw punches).


Fine. He can throw punches from the hips. He did that in the Mir fight. It's nothing knew. Guys with lots of athleticism can do that, generally speaking.



> 2-To not stay in the guard of another guy with some kind of submission game (16/28 wins by submission in the case of Herring). To keep side and back control at all times.


Herring is a well rounded fighter, but his last submission win came in 2003 against Giant Silva (one of the worst fighters in the world). The fact is, calling Herring a submission fighter would not just be misleading, it would be an an outright lie.

Herring's good on the ground, but the guys that we're talking about having Lesnar fight are great on the ground. Lesnar still isn't.



> What he has to improve is to take advantage of the position and learn to finish the fight, at the very least, when mounting, where you only have to rain punches with all the leverage to end the fight.


I won't disagree with you, but I do think this statement is very generic. There are twenty fighters I could say need to learn to finish fights (or, in some cases, need to re-learn to finish fights).

Still, there are ways that Lesnar can use his strength to finish, he just needs to think he way through submissions, because the groundnpound isn't finishing guys the way that it use to (the UFC lightweight division has become a prime example of that, though there are a few exceptions, like Velasquez), and there are reasons for that (though it's beside the point). Lesnar just needs to understand that he can finish, he just needs to learn to use the technique, and not fight like a gorilla on meth (or, as I like to call the style, Mark Kerr).


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

ROCKBASS03 said:


> I'm confused as to what lay and pray is. I am in no way a Brock fan as he has little experience to know much about him. However, I did watch his fights with Mir and Herring. I don't know where the lay and pray comes in. He tried to do what he could.
> 
> I am curious how impressed you expected to be. This was his 3rd fight. Have you ever watched an amatuer MMA event? Were you impressed by very many of them? I wouldn't expect to be very impressed by anyone with a wrestling background in their 3rd MMA fight. Maybe that's just me though:dunno:
> 
> I think if his game can evolve more, he may one day be a contender. Unless the UFC gets more good HW, he will get a shot eventually. Is his fighting style interesting? Well for me, I like to see a guy come in hitting hard and jumping on them trying to pound them some more.....so yes it's interesting. Is it the best? No. Can he win every fight that way? No. No, I didn't enjoy this fight overall. Brock did some damage and some of that was good, but overall not a lot to enjoy. Keep him in the game learning other elements and his fights will get better.


Ya, I don't buy the "lay and pray" either. He obviously kept the action going enough so that the ref never had to stand it up. He did plenty of damage with the few puches and knees he unloaded and did well by conserving energy and controlling the other fighter. Overall, his preformance was great. While standing, he dominated, either flipping Herring over backwards with a punch, controlling the clinch, using effective takedowns and throwing knees. I think he threw a kick or two but they didnt really look like proper kicks to me. So he doesn't know BJJ, thats pretty clear, but maybe he will never need to know anything but BJJ defense and he can use his athletic gifts combined with sheer size and power to control and defeat opponents. It was only his third fight but I was impressed. I would like to see him crush Kongo next.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Brock did great. He completly dominated. He didn't finish, who really cares? He won and nobody can call his victory controversial.

In his 3rd MMA fight he completly dominated Heath Herring.
That's a huge accomplishment.

He's quick as hell for a HW. And his takedowns are vicious. Brock is good for the HW division.:thumbsup:

And "lay & Pray" is not what he did. Not by far. That is too funny for people to accuse Brock of that.

More like "Ground & Pound".


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

I think Brocks future is very bright in the UFC HW division. If he can continue to improve at this pace he should be fighting for the belt in less than two years, especially considering how thin the UFC HW division is. I'd like to see him get with a better striking/jitz camp but that is NOT going to happen as he's said over and over again he likes the fact that he can train and go home every night. Hopefully he can find some studs willing to come in and train with him from other gyms. When he gets comfortable going for subs he will be just about unstoppable. I think his stand up so far has been very good but we haven't seen enough of it to know for sure. He is the strongest by far and fastest by a good bit HW in the UFC and his cardio is pretty darn good. The sky is the limit although his age is probably only going to allow him another five years or so in the sport so he really needs to start fighting a LOT more than twice a year.


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

Wow dude, you just refuse to stop looking for things to rail on Lesnar about. What can he do as a fighter to win you over as a fan? Keep in mind he can't undo the fact that he used to be a pro-wrestler.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

Brocks gonna be a serious force in the future. He wants it. Hes a NCAA wrestler (which means he knows how to train on the most serious level). Hes huge,ive never seen anybody manhandle herring like that. He was just holding his head down while Heath was turtled up. When he masters jujitsu positions hes gonna be tough. I know big Nog schooled Heath in pride but Heath kept escaping, with Brock he had NO answer. Kinda made the fight suck it was so 1 sided


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

I'm not railing on him as a fighter i'm merely pointing out a rule to someone who didn't understand it.

Edit: 

I will never be a fan of his but I may respect him more as a fighter if he doesn't do any more of those stupid antics after his fights and if he develops either a striking game or a BJJ game. I'm not a fan of fighters that hold on to their opponent for 15 minutes.


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## cplmac (Nov 14, 2007)

If you've got a couple of spare hours, read through this entire thread again, you might see it differently.


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## valrond (Nov 26, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Sure. Randy did it to Sylvia for most of their fight, if I remember right (though I know there was one point where he was in the half guard).
> 
> Fedor used to do alot of easy toreando guard passing in his early fights, and did it against Schilt, though his mount was heavy enough that he didn't have to move around too much.
> 
> There are plenty of others, but these are the ones that came to my mind first. Monson has a few of those, but he generally pulls out the submission pretty easily once he passes the guard.


Sorry, I haven't seen Randy vs Sylvia yet. But I have seen the early Fedor fights just last week, till the Semmy Schilt fight, the first one in Pride, and, he was GnP +ing(well, in the fights that he could, as in RINGS he couldn't, it was quite strange watch Fedor pouding the body and the guy not defending the face or trying to control the head of Fedor) in full guard. Specifically vs Semmy, when he got he first takedown in round 1, after launching him vs the ropes, he spent most of the round in Semmy's full or half guard, with Semmy defending quite well, controlling Fedor's head and wrist with his usual wrist guarding game, he got the mount and side contrl a couple of times, but he couldn't finish the job. He spent most of the second round and third in Semmy's full guard.

Also during the Arona fight he was on his back for a while, not only that, he was even mounted for 100 seconds (I just watched it now) during the first round. Vs Babalu, the GnP came with Fedor standing, in half guard or full guard, no side or back control.


So none of those 3 fights he was as dominant as Lesnar was.

So, I ask you again, as I may have not been clear the fist time.

Do you know any fights where:

1-The winner spends most of the time in the ground.

2-He never stays on his back.

3-He controls the other guy on the ground the full time, mostly staying on his back or side.

4-He is never in full guard and barely in half guard.

Now that I think about it, GSP vs Koschek, if I remember well, Kos was dominated by GSP, and spent a lot of time with GSP on his back, but GSP was also on Koschek's full guard.


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## Throwdown565 (Jun 20, 2008)

bmo37 said:


> I'm calling him one-dimensional cause thats all I've seen from the guy thus far. I don't care either way if Brock does well or fails, just calling how I see it. Any guy in the world can attempt flying knees, spinning backfists, windmill kicks, and not land one ever in their career, does that make them a well rounded mma fighter if all they do to win is control a guys back for 13mins of a fight. Bottomline he is one-dimensional and needs to work on submissions, more standup than a fient left and big right hand everytime more combos, and more importantly needs to learn to finish a fight. If you in a dominate postion like brock was 95% of the fight use it to win, he didn't because hes just not there yet as a fighter and knows it. He rode Heath cause of his own insecurity as a fighter andwas afraid of making a mistake or being submitted bottomline. I call it how I see it.


wow how dumb are you...your saying he should throw combos when both times hes knocked his oppenent down with one punch, Yeh that makes sense! Im sure he would have if he needed too...So would you let a guy stand back up if u knocked him down after punching him when ur strength is wrestling? of course his main dimension is wrestling but saying hes one dimensional is just ignorant, on the ground yeh hes one dimensional but as a fighter, no hes not! yeh i call it how i see it...


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

TheNegation said:


> I didn't answer your question, so what? You didn't answer mine


You never asked a question. 



> And no, you don't have to be "good" to be considered more than a one dimensional fighter.


Sure it does. One dimensional fighters stick to one thing because it _works_.



> Brock showed that he can at least throw a punch in his last fight, and also some knees in the clinch and some leg kicks. He doesn't have to be good, he just has to get by, average striking will do.


So he throws one punch, and now he's an average striker?



> Plus, it's too soon to make a judgement anyway on his striking.


Here we agree.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

I've been posting in this thread since the beginning and I know everything that's been said. I don't see how listening to a bunch of nuthuggers talking about stuff that isn't true will change my mind. Brock has no BJJ offense or defense and has very poor striking even tho he supposedly got so much better with his "world class training partner". He should have finished Herring with that guillotine but due to his poor BJJ skills he didn't have the right technique and couldn't do it. Aside from the one right straight and a few knees from the clinch his stand up was still atrocious. Yeah he had a couple nice clinches but he's a HW wrestler i'd expect him to know how to clinch from wrestling. The only thing I saw in that Lesnar fight that impressed me at all were the knees he threw to Herring's ribs.


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## TERMINATOR (Jul 6, 2008)

One day he will have the belt. Guaranteed. Just give it time. The guy in time will be to much to handle for anyone. Whoever the next opponent is better eat their wheaties.


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## Beeg (Nov 19, 2006)

I think that first punch to Heath's head was the mental equivalent of getting the wind knocked out of him. Kinda scrambled his ability to concentrate. I don't think Herring expected to be hit from the distance the two stood apart when it happened. But I'm not in anyone else's head, so my thoughts are no more than that. 

I commented to a buddy when Lesnar had Herring down, that it looked like a grizzly bear that found a turtle, and didn't quite know what to do with it. He fumbled around, threw some punches, tossed a few knees, but seemed to have no idea what else to look for. So Lesnar either A) had no idea how find and sink a submission; or B) had no interest in finding one, but just wanted to make hamburger out of Heath. Maybe Lesnar had a little residual Mir fear in him... poking around for a submission would leave him vulnerable to a counter... an area he's not experienced enough with when it comes to recognizing the danger until it's too late. 

Size and strength can be countered (re: Bob Sapp). Size, strength and speed though... I don't think I've seen a man as big as Lesnar with the speed of LHW. I think if he develops any kind of submission ground game, the list of those capable of beating him will drop considerably.


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## Vikingpride (Jan 20, 2008)

yeah Brock was impressive. The way he was just mauling herring was incredible. I mean herring was simply trying to survive half the fight. Now it's painfully obvious that lesnar has little to no BJJ skills. Yet even without that he was able to abuse heath. It just shows you how scary this guy could be if he got some BJJ skills. I mean Heath gave up his back multiple times (which as stupid as it sounds was actually a smart decision vs Brock.) Brock also used his freakish strength and wrestling skills to get mount a few times and if he could have locked in his hooks he would have ended that fight.

Side note: On that punch brock threw to knock herring backwards it looked like his fist went halfway into Heaths skull.


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> I've been posting in this thread since the beginning and I know everything that's been said. I don't see how listening to a bunch of nuthuggers talking about stuff that isn't true will change my mind. Brock has no BJJ offense or defense and has very poor striking even tho he supposedly got so much better with his "world class training partner". He should have finished Herring with that guillotine but due to his poor BJJ skills he didn't have the right technique and couldn't do it. Aside from the one right straight and a few knees from the clinch his stand up was still atrocious. Yeah he had a couple nice clinches but he's a HW wrestler i'd expect him to know how to clinch from wrestling. The only thing I saw in that Lesnar fight that impressed me at all were the knees he threw to Herring's ribs.



Who K.O'd Herring? Who was it that made him look like a NOVICE?


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## UFCFAN33 (May 29, 2006)

This is now the *OFFICIAL * Brock Lesnar thread. All other threads will be deleted so be sure to comment about Lesnar here!


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

mjbish23 said:


> I've been posting in this thread since the beginning and I know everything that's been said. I don't see how listening to a bunch of nuthuggers talking about stuff that isn't true will change my mind. Brock has no BJJ offense or defense and has very poor striking even tho he supposedly got so much better with his "world class training partner". He should have finished Herring with that guillotine but due to his poor BJJ skills he didn't have the right technique and couldn't do it. Aside from the one right straight and a few knees from the clinch his stand up was still atrocious. Yeah he had a couple nice clinches but he's a HW wrestler i'd expect him to know how to clinch from wrestling. The only thing I saw in that Lesnar fight that impressed me at all were the knees he threw to Herring's ribs.


I feel pretty much the same way.


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## Yuggs (Jun 17, 2007)

Ok, screw it, the truth is Brock is the devil and he's currently carrying out the first stage of the Apocalypse, which is making sure that all MMA fans hate him because he was in the WWE, and because he says dumb shit pre/post fight like every other fighter.

You can also blame him for:

1. War on Earth
2. Cancer
3. 9/11
4. MTV
5. and when you try to fart but end up pooping in your pants


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

IronMan said:


> I feel pretty much the same way.


I was wondering when you would come into this thread.

Honestly Lesnar has great control as I think we all saw and his power is impressive but I was wondering your opinion on his techinique because I wasn't very impressed with his GnP or some of his takedown attempts.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

raymel1 said:


> Who K.O'd Herring? Who was it that made him look like a NOVICE?


Last time I checked nobody KO'ed Herring. Sam Greco, Cro Cop, Fedor,and Ramazon Mezhidov all TKO'ed Herring but Herring has never been KO'ed.


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## poiuytre13 (Jul 10, 2007)

herring isn't that big of a stepping stone have brock fight somebody that actually has had a belt in the last 5 years and that has won some big name fights, i thought heath would have done a little more then just lay on the mat all fight


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## Lurch (Apr 23, 2008)

Lesnar vs Kongo would be a Lesnar win. Kongo has no ground game and the only thing that Kongo would have is a punch, knee, or kick before Lesnar took him down.

Thanks mods for making all lesnar threads, 1 thread.


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## UFCFAN33 (May 29, 2006)

Lurch said:


> Lesnar vs Kongo would be a Lesnar win. Kongo has no ground game and the only thing that Kongo would have is a punch, knee, or kick before Lesnar took him down.
> 
> Thanks mods for making all lesnar threads, 1 thread.


No problem Lurch! There were def to many threads about Brock.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> No he wouldn't. Nog would tap him by the second round if not earlier and Fedor would either knock him out or submit him with an armbar from his back.


I don't think he'll ever get to fight Fedor but when he crushes Noggy boy, i'll make sure to tell you I told you so.


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## UFCFAN33 (May 29, 2006)

Brock should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as nog or Fedor. Brock needs at least 4 more wins until we can talk about him seriously.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> I don't think he'll ever get to fight Fedor but when he crushes Noggy boy, i'll make sure to tell you I told you so.


Brock will never be able to fight Nog because he will never be good enough but if and thats a big if he ever does i'll be sure to bet you. You prolly wouldn't stick to the bet tho after Nog wins.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> and if he develops either a striking game or a BJJ game. I'm not a fan of fighters that hold on to their opponent for 15 minutes.


as far as striking is concerned, regardless of how it "looks", so far everything he has thrown has done damage. He punched Mir and each time sent him flying and for god sakes, he hit Herring so hard he made him FLIP OVER! Not to mention, he controlled the clinch, delivered knees and threw a kick or two. I find it interesting how you critisize the guy's standup when all he does is knock guys down with one punch. He just about caved Herrings ribs in. Not sure if you caught that. As far as the Jitz goes, i agree that he could spend some time learning some basic elements, but in no way does he or should he change his style. He was the clear victor at 87 and certainly did not in any way simply hold him for 15 minutes. If that was the case, the ref would have stood them up. Lesnar clearly kept the action flowing with a great GNP. I understand he may bore you and its easy to hate the guy, but this is MMA and just because a guy relies on his strengths, doesn't mean he won't do well or shouldn't be respected. Hey its just IMO, but as long as he wins, who cares how he does it.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> Brock will never be able to fight Nog because he will never be good enough but if and thats a big if he ever does i'll be sure to bet you. You prolly wouldn't stick to the bet tho after Nog wins.


When that event happens i'll be sure to call your bluff.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> I was wondering when you would come into this thread.
> 
> Honestly Lesnar has great control as I think we all saw and his power is impressive but I was wondering your opinion on his techinique because I wasn't very impressed with his GnP or some of his takedown attempts.


His takedowns are good, but their not great. (then again, I'm watching Olympic wrestling now, so my standards are particularly high) The fact is, his actually submission grappling technique (that is to say, his skills in all-around grappling) aren't great.

Herring is a seasoned fighter, but he's not a world class grappler, so Lesnar was able to muscle out that win. That said, Lesnar would not stand a chance against a serious submission grappler, someone who goes even beyond Mir. Put him in the cage with Jeff Monson or Josh Barnett or Nogueira or Werdum, and you'll see his groundgame for what it is.

Lesnar has alot of potential, and alot of power. I haven't denied either of those things. But does he have good technical skills? Not really.

I'd give him ninety seconds in an ADCC match with Marcelo, forty of those would be Marcelinho trying to sink in the squeeze on his big ass neck.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

IronMan said:


> His takedowns are good, but their not great. (then again, I'm watching Olympic wrestling now, so my standards are particularly high) The fact is, his actually submission grappling technique (that is to say, his skills in all-around grappling) aren't great.
> 
> Herring is a seasoned fighter, but he's not a world class grappler, so Lesnar was able to muscle out that win. That said, Lesnar would not stand a chance against a serious submission grappler, someone who goes even beyond Mir. Put him in the cage with Jeff Monson or Josh Barnett or Nogueira or Werdum, and you'll see his groundgame for what it is.
> 
> ...


I agree with just about every word. Technically, he's just not near perfect but what he did against Herring was effective and I'm not so sure if he faced Mir again, that he would make the same mistake. I think Kongo would be a great match for him next but I anticipate the exact same type of fight. What I am interested in, is to see him against another Submission guy, to see if he is adapting. Nonetheless, he won and dominated. At 87 he did what he needed to do. Lets see what happens next.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> as far as striking is concerned, regardless of how it "looks", so far everything he has thrown has done damage. He punched Mir and each time sent him flying and for god sakes, he hit Herring so hard he made him FLIP OVER! Not to mention, he controlled the clinch, delivered knees and threw a kick or two. I find it interesting how you critisize the guy's standup when all he does is knock guys down with one punch. He just about caved Herrings ribs in. Not sure if you caught that. As far as the Jitz goes, i agree that he could spend some time learning some basic elements, but in no way does he or should he change his style. He was the clear victor at 87 and certainly did not in any way simply hold him for 15 minutes. If that was the case, the ref would have stood them up. Lesnar clearly kept the action flowing with a great GNP. I understand he may bore you and its easy to hate the guy, but this is MMA and just because a guy relies on his strengths, doesn't mean he won't do well or shouldn't be respected. Hey its just IMO, but as long as he wins, who cares how he does it.


I've already said my opinion on this topic like 5 times. If you care about it look back through the thread and find what i've said.



nissassagame said:


> When that event happens i'll be sure to call your bluff.


Yeah I bet you will :sarcastic12:


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## R u s h (Aug 12, 2008)

Although unlucky in his first fight, Lesnar is gonna be a monster just like i predicted 6 months ago.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

nissassagame said:


> I agree with just about every word. Technically, he's just not near perfect but what he did against Herring was effective and I'm not so sure if he faced Mir again, that he would make the same mistake. I think Kongo would be a great match for him next but I anticipate the exact same type of fight. What I am interested in, is to see him against another Submission guy, to see if he is adapting. Nonetheless, he won and dominated. At 87 he did what he needed to do. Lets see what happens next.


Kongo would be a boring fight.

Standing up, Kongo would completely control him, and Lesnar would take the fight to the ground and control it. He can't finish Kongo on the ground, and he'll work just enough to keep it there, but it's not going to be impressive.


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## bail3yz (Apr 22, 2007)

R u s h said:


> Although unlucky in his first fight, Lesnar is gonna be a monster just like i predicted 6 months ago.


unlucky? lol


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> I've already said my opinion on this topic like 5 times. If you care about it look back through the thread and find what i've said.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I bet you will :sarcastic12:


Wow. So very amazing. :confused03:


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## bail3yz (Apr 22, 2007)

Regardless of how good Brock is/gets... nothing will change the fact that he has a gaint tattoo on his chest that resembles a penis.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

IronMan said:


> Kongo would be a boring fight.
> 
> Standing up, Kongo would completely control him, and Lesnar would take the fight to the ground and control it. He can't finish Kongo on the ground, and he'll work just enough to keep it there, but it's not going to be impressive.


I agree that it has little potential to be anywhere near an exciting fight(depending I guess on what your tastes are of course), but I'm not so sure Kongo would "control" the standup as opposed to maybe get a kick off, but after that I could see Lesnar completing successful takedowns whenever he wanted. More G'n'P. Yeh. Lesnar win. Probably. I think he will do it it an even more convincing fashion against Kongo than with Herring. God forbid he trains for 3 months on sinking in hooks and chokes. If he doesn't, I'm OK with keeping it active on the ground. I wasn't "offended" by his win. It could have been more "technical", sure, but he smashed Herring and thats all that matters.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Wow. So very amazing. :confused03:


It was very amazing. Why would I waste my time typing something out i've already said? If arguing with me is that important to you then you'll search for what I said. I really don't give a shit what you have to say or what your opinion is so i'm not going to waste my time typing out a long analysis of the fight when I already have in multiple threads and multiple times.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

mjbish23 said:


> It was very amazing. Why would I waste my time typing something out i've already said? If arguing with me is that important to you then you'll search for what I said. I really don't give a shit what you have to say or what your opinion is so i'm not going to waste my time typing out a long analysis of the fight when I already have in multiple threads and multiple times.


Not so sure what has prompted you to troll this evening when I simply responded to a comment you quoted me on. If you dont want me to comment on your comments I suggest you put me on that ignore list of yours. It surely would spare both of us. You, from having to see me be a nice guy and have a chat, and me, from having to deal with you trolling and crying to the mods when I react. And likewise, your opinion has no value to me either :thumb02::thumbsdown::confused03:


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

bail3yz said:


> Regardless of how good Brock is/gets... nothing will change the fact that he has a gaint tattoo on his chest that resembles a penis.


Lolz...I'll give you $20 cash to say that in front of his face. Hahah...


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

nissassagame said:


> Not so sure what has prompted you to troll this evening when I simply responded to a comment you quoted me on. If you dont want me to comment on your comments I suggest you put me on that ignore list of yours. It surely would spare both of us. You, from having to see me be a nice guy and have a chat, and me, from having to deal with you trolling and crying to the mods when I react. And likewise, your opinion has no value to me either :thumb02::thumbsdown::confused03:


I'm not trolling. I'm sick of hearing about people overrating Lesnar. I have no problem having a chat with you about it I just don't feel like reanalyzing the fight when i've done it a few times in this thread. Find what I said and quote it and say what you want and then i'll address that. I also didn't cry to any mods about you so I don't know what you're talking about with that.

Thanks for the neg rep tho it was very mature :thumbsdown:. I didn't neg you so I don't know why you felt like negging me.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

No_Mercy said:


> Lolz...I'll give you $20 cash to say that in front of his face. Hahah...


I'd say it. Seriously, you think he'd gonna rack up some assault charges over some guy's opinion of his tattoo? If anything some friend of his might stick up for him, but Brock cares about his career too much to rage over something like that.


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## daitrong (May 27, 2007)

this is seriously getting out of hand. Kimbo's lice would mop the floor with Brock Lesner...nubs! :thumb02:


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

The fact is, SOME people will *Never* give Brock any props no matter what he does or who he beats or how he beats them. Their *Hatred* for the WWF/WWE overwhelms their very being.:dunno:


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## daitrong (May 27, 2007)

raymel1 said:


> The fact is, SOME people will *Never* give Brock any props no matter what he does or who he beats or how he beats them. Their *Hatred* for the WWF/WWE overwhelms their very being.:dunno:


i seriously doubt anyone here has an intense hatred for pro wrestling. I think most people here are just annoyed with how people are making out Brock like he's the next best thing. Saying things like he's already top p4p not only in UFC, but all of MMA.


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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

*Just something interesting i noticed about this fight*

You guys know that Brock is big on money and exposure right?

He wanted to get additional bonuses for this fight, but going for Fight of the Night was too risky because he could get caught and lose his winning bonus (and pull in a renegotiation).

Knockout of the Night was a lock on for Rob Emerson, and Brock was smart enough not to mess with Rotten Rob, though he got carried away and delivered that massive punch but then remembered Emerson and resorted to keeping his position and landing some safe shots instead of diving in for the kill.

So the fight is about to start and Brock knows he needs something big to take the remaining bonus from Demian "Mr.Submission of the Night" Maia, so he charged right into his opponent for a Flying Gogoplata...that's right, it wasnt a flying knee, word said that he had a bet with the Undertaker that he could pull of a better Gogo, and without his opponent helping him out, then he pointed at him and laughed.


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## valvetronix (Feb 3, 2008)

valvetronix said:


> I think people need to realize...
> 
> Herring, with *42* fights had no answers for Lesnar, with *2* fights.
> 
> ...


LOL I got neg-reped for that :confused02:


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

IronMan said:


> His takedowns are good, but their not great. (then again, I'm watching Olympic wrestling now, so my standards are particularly high) The fact is, his actually submission grappling technique (that is to say, his skills in all-around grappling) aren't great.
> 
> Herring is a seasoned fighter, but he's not a world class grappler, so Lesnar was able to muscle out that win. That said, Lesnar would not stand a chance against a serious submission grappler, someone who goes even beyond Mir. Put him in the cage with Jeff Monson or Josh Barnett or Nogueira or Werdum, and you'll see his groundgame for what it is.
> 
> ...


I agree on his takedowns honestly I don't think his takedowns are as good as everyone assumed they would be.

He's not GSP at HW or even Koscheck IMO. Velasquez's wrestling has looked better to me takedown wise than Lesnar.

Now Lesnar's strength and control where damn impressive to me and his power was as well.

Herring is defiantly not a great grappler he is a good scrambler and Lesnar didn't really give him many chances to.

Yea I don't see Lesnar hanging with a submission guy.

In fact I kind of think Lesnar is like a better version of Ron Waterman ATM.

I would love to see him take on Marcelo in ADCC.

I would also enjoy seeing him face Roger Gracie in MMA Although it would be bad in some ways because Roger doesn't take MMA that seriously so him beating Brock who is at least trying would hurt a little.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

raymel1 said:


> The fact is, SOME people will *Never* give Brock any props no matter what he does or who he beats or how he beats them. Their *Hatred* for the WWF/WWE overwhelms their very being.:dunno:


I concur with this statement.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

raymel1 said:


> The fact is, SOME people will *Never* give Brock any props no matter what he does or who he beats or how he beats them. Their *Hatred* for the WWF/WWE overwhelms their very being.:dunno:


If you're talking about me having this immense hatred for pro wrestling then you are wrong. I used to watch it religiously when I was younger. Once I realized it was fake I stopped watching it because it wasn't as interesting to me.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> I would also enjoy seeing him face Roger Gracie in MMA Although it would be bad in some ways because Roger doesn't take MMA that seriously so him beating Brock who is at least trying would hurt a little.


60 pound weight advantage might come into play there......though I still think Brock would get subbed.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> I agree on his takedowns honestly I don't think his takedowns are as good as everyone assumed they would be.
> 
> He's not GSP at HW or even Koscheck IMO. Velasquez's wrestling has looked better to me takedown wise than Lesnar.


In fairness, he's much more explosive than Koscheck. But the comparison is accurate.

Also, I think that you're right to say that Velasquez has looked better. The whizzer he caught on O'Brien was impressive.



> Now Lesnar's strength and control where damn impressive to me and his power was as well.


Won't disagree with you there.



> Herring is defiantly not a great grappler he is a good scrambler and Lesnar didn't really give him many chances to.


Nope. His top control was solid.



> Yea I don't see Lesnar hanging with a submission guy.


Yeah, I think I've already covered that one.



> In fact I kind of think Lesnar is like a better version of Ron Waterman ATM.


Yeah, but without the experience.



> I would love to see him take on Marcelo in ADCC.


Me too. But Marcelinho would embarrass him.



> I would also enjoy seeing him face Roger Gracie in MMA Although it would be bad in some ways because Roger doesn't take MMA that seriously so him beating Brock who is at least trying would hurt a little.


Roger, realistically, is out of his league at this point. If he competed regularly, Roger could be a top ten heavyweight. He could be submitting guys overseas, but since he chooses to stick to GJJ, he's staying unranked.

He's a warrior, and he'd kill Brock. But, unfortunately, the chances of the UFC signing him are not very good.


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## raymel1 (Feb 17, 2008)

to any follower of mma, it was painfully obvious that Lesnar was proving a point, he could and DID have the ability to end the fight. Lesnar still (obviously) has a lot of showboating in him, and chose not to end it. he wanted to whoop Herring for 15 minutes, and he did, he did NOT lay on Herring for 15 minutes, he showed excellent wrestling skills and CONTROLLED Herring for 15 minutes, working the entire time. 

I for one am impressed with Lesnar's performance. he had a solid game-plan, he didn't leave himself open like he did with Mirr.

Herring's face was split by lesnar's knee with the spear tackle he followed up that AMAZING straight right with. He mounted Herring what? 3 times? he didn't follow up, why? he just wanted to prove he could.

at the end of 3 rounds Lesnar wasn't even winded, Herring looked like he had been in a blender for 15 minutes.

Brock is for real, he tamed that Crazy Stallion.


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## bmo37 (Jun 1, 2008)

rabakill said:


> ^^ comparing brock and sapp is like comparing Brock to Kimbo Slice, one is an experienced professional athlete, the other is a novelty act.
> 
> This thread assumes Lesnar will stay at the same skillset forever, when in fact he is improving at a staggeringly fast rate. In a years time if he keeps improving at this rate he'll beat most anyone I can think of. He's already passed a lot of guys who have been in the sport for many years(eg. Kongo) so just wait and see.



This thread is also missing the point which was Brock Lesnar is one-dimensional in the present tense. People like to state strengths and weakness, and how in the future he can learn and will be great, that he improved from previous fights, they like to debate why he didn't attempt submissions, blah blah blah. The simple point of this thread was to dispute wether he's a one dimensional fighter and in his current state he is.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

WOW, i'm gone for a day and this thread becomes enormous!


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## BHShaman (Sep 2, 2006)

Freelancer said:


> WOW, i'm gone for a day and this thread becomes enormous!


Exactly what UFC wants and why they paid for Brock.
Choice was out there at one point, Kimbo or Brock.
UFC got the right guy.


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## nissassagame (May 6, 2008)

I love hearing crap about Lesnar's lack of BJJ or his failure to attempt subs. He is a freakin Wrestler that came in with a gameplan and executed. Who gives a rats *** how he does it. I've never seen so much whining and for a forum with so many "knowledgeable" members, I am very suprised to see so much attention being given to a guy who has had 3 fights. :confused03:


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

bmo37 said:


> This thread is also missing the point which was Brock Lesnar is one-dimensional in the present tense. People like to state strengths and weakness, and how in the future he can learn and will be great, that he improved from previous fights, they like to debate why he didn't attempt submissions, blah blah blah. The simple point of this thread was to dispute wether he's a one dimensional fighter and in his current state he is.


A one dimensional fighter only uses one aspect of mma, Brock used flying knees, punches, takedowns, sub defense, knees on the ground and some piss poor sub attempts. He isn't one dimensional, he's just mediocre at best at a lot of different things but his athleticism and strength got him through it.


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## drockh (Nov 17, 2006)

raymel1 said:


> to any follower of mma, it was painfully obvious that Lesnar was proving a point, he could and DID have the ability to end the fight. Lesnar still (obviously) has a lot of showboating in him, and chose not to end it. he wanted to whoop Herring for 15 minutes, and he did, he did NOT lay on Herring for 15 minutes, he showed excellent wrestling skills and CONTROLLED Herring for 15 minutes, working the entire time.
> 
> I for one am impressed with Lesnar's performance. he had a solid game-plan, he didn't leave himself open like he did with Mirr.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I think brock could have ended the fight but he stuck to the gameplan of controlling and pounding herring for 3 rounds. If he continues to train well and pickup a better skillset that will give him options to take more chances in fights.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

drockh said:


> Agreed. I think brock could have ended the fight but he stuck to the gameplan of controlling and pounding herring for 3 rounds. If he continues to train well and pickup a better skillset that will give him options to take more chances in fights.


Agreed


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## BlitzGT (Aug 16, 2008)

I like how Brock executed his game plan. He came in and used his wrestling to take Heath down and keep him down and just GnP away.

To stay that he has no BJJ skills yet, remember it's his third fight. Theres no use attempting a sub that could cause you to lose the match. And honestly, at one point when it looked like Lesnar was trying for RNC, it didnt look like his guerilla arm was going to fit under Heaths chin.


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## hitmachine44 (Oct 15, 2006)

rabakill said:


> A one dimensional fighter only uses one aspect of mma, Brock used flying knees, punches, takedowns, sub defense, knees on the ground and some piss poor sub attempts. *He isn't one dimensional, he's just mediocre at best at a lot of different things *but his athleticism and strength got him through it.


This pretty much defines one dimensional just so you know. I'm not saying Lesnar is, or isn't, I just wanted to point this out.


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