# ***OFFICIAL*** Jake Shields vs. Martin Kampmann Fight Discussion Thread



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

*Please direct all discussion regarding Shields vs. Kampmann into this thread. All other threads regarding this fight will be merged into this one.*​


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

Going with Kampmann on this one. I think he is seriously underrated and significantly tougher than most give him credit for.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

No doubt Kampmann is a great fighter, but Shields is on another level.
If Kampmann can keep it standing then he can win, but lets be honest Okami has some of the best TDD in the world and he couldn't keep his fight with Shields standing, and Shields is better now then he was then. 

I'm going Shields by 2nd round sub.


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## tommydaone (Feb 19, 2010)

I'm sensing a boring UD for Shields, via LnP


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## El Bresko (Mar 12, 2010)

I sure love me some Martin Kampmann but i really just can't see him getting past Shields. If Kos loses to GSP again i feel that Shields is the only man that can do it, or maybe Hector Lombard at WW


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

tommydaone said:


> I'm sensing a boring UD for Shields, via LnP


Why does everyone think that Shields is so boring. Yes he has 12 wins by decision but he also has 13 finishes. He has also finished 8 out of his last 10 fights. Shields is nowhere near a LnP fighter.


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## Guymay (Jul 6, 2009)

cdtcpl said:


> Going with Kampmann on this one. I think he is seriously underrated and significantly tougher than most give him credit for.



Ditto .


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

Kampmann, gotta support my countryman  btw Kampmann looks like CroCops mini-me in that picture :O


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## sNuFf_rEaLiTy (Feb 2, 2009)

Going with kampmann in this one. All I can say is; he intrigues me more as a challenger than yet another welterweight wrestler:


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

*Martin Kampmann on Jake Shields: “He hasn’t lost in a long time"*



> "so it’s about time to give him one”
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://blog.tapology.com/2010/10/ex...-long-time-so-its-about-time-to-give-him-one/


I hope kampmann pulls it off


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Kampmann is going to dominate this fight. His striking is leaps and bounds better and he is a very good grappler. He will have more success stopping Shields in the grappling department than Shields will against Kampmann striking. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kampmann take Shields to the ground as well.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

I argue strongly with anyone who is saying Kampmann has anything to stop Shields in the grappling department.
Not only has Jake completely outgrappled Okami and Henderson, but he has also comfortablly won a grappling match with Jon Fitch.
I can't see how a guy who has easily otugrappled Okami, Henderson and Fitch is goign to struggle with Kampmann. 
Obviously this is MMA and anything can happen, but when i get round to putting my bets on Shields is the first name on my betslip.


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## hixxy (Sep 7, 2007)

Shields will take a UD in this one i think.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

edlavis88 said:


> I argue strongly with anyone who is saying Kampmann has anything to stop Shields in the grappling department.
> Not only has Jake completely outgrappled Okami and Henderson, but he has also comfortablly won a grappling match with Jon Fitch.
> I can't see how a guy who has easily otugrappled Okami, Henderson and Fitch is goign to struggle with Kampmann.
> Obviously this is MMA and anything can happen, but when i get round to putting my bets on Shields is the first name on my betslip.


He also got his back taken and an RNC fully sunk in by Mayhem lets not pretend this guy is Roger Gracie on the mat.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

osmium said:


> He also got his back taken and an RNC fully sunk in by Mayhem lets not pretend this guy is Roger Gracie on the mat.


True but Mayhem is no slouch on the ground. He looked fine on the ground when he fought GSP and Jacare too.

Shields also got mount about 8 times in the Miller fight. His submission skills are not as good as Gracie's but he advances position better than him. I'd go as far as saying he advances position better than GSP.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

osmium said:


> He also got his back taken and an RNC fully sunk in by Mayhem lets not pretend this guy is Roger Gracie on the mat.


He also played the clock on that RNC and gave that choke up at the end of the round. 

Thats why you saw him let Mayhems hands go after the clock taps and he never looks likes he's even considering tapping out.

Jake Shields out grapples and submits olympic wrestlers in training practice. Don't fool yourself he's lightyears ahead of Martain on the ground, it's not even close.


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

Martin has way better stand up than Jake, although he lacks power. Dan Henderson, a middleweight who hits way harder than Kampmann, failed to knock Shields out, and he landed some heavy punches. I'm confident in thinking that Kampmann won't knock Shields out or finish him standing.

On the ground, Shields has a strong advantage in my opinion. Kampmann is good on the ground, but let's not pretend that out grappling Paulo Thiago builds a good case that he will out grapple Shields. People on this thread have already given a list of accomplished fighters that Shields has beaten on the ground. I think that it is safe to say that Kampmann won't want to be on the ground in this fight.

Either way, I see this fight going the distance. I think that both fighters will have opposite game plans. Kampmann will probably want to keep it standing and Shields will probably want to bring it to the ground.

I'm picking Shields to win here.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Nick_V03 said:


> Martin has way better stand up than Jake, although he lacks power. Dan Henderson, a middleweight who hits way harder than Kampmann, failed to knock Shields out, and he landed some heavy punches. I'm confident in thinking that Kampmann won't knock Shields out or finish him standing.
> 
> On the ground, Shields has a strong advantage in my opinion. Kampmann is good on the ground, but let's not pretend that out grappling Paulo Thiago builds a good case that he will out grapple Shields. People on this thread have already given a list of accomplished fighters that Shields has beaten on the ground. I think that it is safe to say that Kampmann won't want to be on the ground in this fight.
> 
> ...


The most noteworthy grapplers he has beaten are Imada(155 pounder), Pyle(gate keeper), and Condit(who Kampmann beat with 3 more years of development and experience). 

Beating Hendo who was never any kind of threat off his back in his entire career when he is visibly completely broken down physically isn't impressive. Go watch Hendo's fights in pride and see how quick his sprawl was he is so bad physically now he can't even attempt one. He beat Okami 4 years ago at 170 he didn't beat the modern 185 pound fighter and Okami has always been terrible off his back. What shields has proven is that he can beat wrestlers with mediocre bjj once he puts them on their backs.


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

Are you saying that you think Kampmann has the advantage in the grappling department? Out grappling Paulo Thiago isn't any more impressive.

Shields has great credentials, and when was the last time he he has been out grappled? It's been a while. He mounted Miller several times as already said, and Rival already put up a solid debate against the rear naked choke. The guy has a great top game, and I don't see Kampmann submitting him from the bottom. Kampann will probably be looking to sprawl and brawl like he did against Leites. It will be a lot harder to do that as consistently against a guy like Shields. Leites has a poor take down ability which has been shown many times while Shields is a great wrestler.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

osmium said:


> The most noteworthy grapplers he has beaten are Imada(155 pounder), Pyle(gate keeper), and Condit(who Kampmann beat with 3 more years of development and experience).


You're forgetting Hayato Sakurai.. he was 19 -2 when Jake defeated him.. Sakurais only 2 losses at the time were to Anderson Silva and Matt Hughes, and Saku was a complete beast when him and Jake faced eachother. 

Sakurai has 10 wins via submission..

You are also forgetting that Jake outgrappled Jason Mayhem Miller who is a beast on the ground for 4 out of 5 rounds Jacare couldn't even stop Miller with his jitz..

Jason Milller has 14 wins via submission..

Here's some math on Jakes BJJ. He submitted Dave Menne.

Dave Menne has 62 professional fights. He's only been submitted once. He's been tapped out one time in 62 fights. That was by Jake Shields.

Dave Menne has 18 wins by submission. 

You're not giving Jake his due at all.




osmium said:


> Beating Hendo who was never any kind of threat off his back in his entire career when he is visibly completely broken down physically isn't impressive.



Wow that's a complete reach.. Dan Henderson was on a 3 fight win streak before he faced Shields...

He had defeated...

Rich Franklin
Rousimar Palhares 
And Michael Bisbing.

Those guys are all very tough opponents. He was ranked #2 in the world in the middleweight rankings when he faced Jake by virtually every site on the net.

And Jake has never been submitted.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> You're forgetting Hayato Sakurai.. he was 19 -2 when Jake defeated him.. Sakurais only 2 losses at the time were to Anderson Silva and Matt Hughes, and Saku was a complete beast when him and Jake faced eachother.
> 
> Sakurai has 10 wins via submission..
> 
> ...


Rich and Bisping are point fighting strikers how would his inability to sprawl and lack of skill off his back hurt him against them. If I remember correctly the Rousimar fight was just Hendo laying ontop of him.

Miller is a slightly above average grappler who happens to be near impossible to submit because of his flexibility and Shields stalled for the entire fight because he was giving him so much trouble every time he tried to do something.

Mach is one of my favorite fighters ever but he is a striker his grappling has always been pretty mediocre. Uno is the only person he ever subbed who isn't awful and that was both of their first fights. He handed Diaz an armbar in his last fight and Gono pretty much just immediately armbar'd him once it got to the ground in the fight before that. It wasn't like it was a super slick submission either.

Menne... Wow just ******* stupid. I guess I should respect him because he has wins over 42 cans and a decision over Lytle. That and a bunch of ass beatings at the hands of good fighters. Shields won by UD also which makes him one of the very few decent fighters Menne fought who didn't finish him.

You aren't differentiating between subbing a can and subbing a legitimate grappler. The lack of perspective in your argument shows how flawed it is.



Nick_V03 said:


> Are you saying that you think Kampmann has the advantage in the grappling department? Out grappling Paulo Thiago isn't any more impressive.


Whoever is on top will have the grappling advantage top game positional dominance is where both of them are really good. Shields isn't subbing Kampmann if he wins it will be by stalling like he did with Miller. Kampmann is going to take Shields down at some point he doesn't have a great guard game to worry about.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

osmium said:


> Rich and Bisping are point fighting strikers how would his inability to sprawl and lack of skill off his back hurt him against them. If I remember correctly the Rousimar fight was just Hendo laying ontop of him.
> 
> Miller is a slightly above average grappler who happens to be near impossible to submit because of his flexibility and Shields stalled for the entire fight because he was giving him so much trouble every time he tried to do something.
> 
> Mach is one of my favorite fighters ever but he is a striker his grappling has always been pretty mediocre. Uno is the only person he ever subbed who isn't awful and that was both of their first fights. He handed Diaz an armbar in his last fight and Gono pretty much just immediately armbar'd him once it got to the ground in the fight before that. It wasn't like it was a super slick submission either.


Wow... that is just alot of excuses.

That is a whole lot of excuses... lmao..

Okami... "the sun was in his eyes"
Lawler... "his parrot died that day, he was off"


You virtually made an excuse for every fighter that Shields has ever defeated in one way or another to take away the credibility of his victories.. and he's beaten some world class fighters. 
.


osmium said:


> Whoever is on top will have the grappling advantage top game positional dominance is where both of them are really good


lol you're way wrong. Shields will sweep Kampmann quicker than you can blink.



osmium said:


> Shields isn't subbing Kampmann if he wins it will be by stalling like he did with Miller. Kampmann is going to take Shields down at some point he doesn't have a great guard game to worry about.


You're talking out of the side of your neck here. Kampmann goes into Shields guard Jake will sweep and make Kampmann pay for it.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Watched some fights again. The Kampmann V Thiago fight. Kampmann V Daley fight (early stoppage my a$$, he was getting bobble headed w/ hands his down - 100 mile stare of getting rocked). Watched Shield V Daley, Shields V Miller.

Paulo Thiago took Kampmann down, sweeped him even though he was getting controlled by Kampmann and getting beat up and loosing the stand-up game against with Kampmann.

Shields is on another level. Stronger, better wrestler, doesn't pack much power in strikes, but can control Kampmann's stand-up. Kampmann has a striker's chance because of his technical striking, but he doesn't really pack like superior power either compared to Shields. Shields' ground game is superior in every facet. Shields is a far more cerebral fighter. 

I think it's just going to end up a (30-27) UD, win for Shields. No significant damage to either opponent.

A modern day WW UFC elite win. Good opponent for GSP or Kos for 5 rounds of boredom.


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## Stapler (Nov 18, 2006)

osmium said:


> Rich and Bisping are point fighting strikers how would his inability to sprawl and lack of skill off his back hurt him against them. If I remember correctly the Rousimar fight was just Hendo laying ontop of him.
> 
> Miller is a slightly above average grappler who happens to be near impossible to submit because of his flexibility and Shields stalled for the entire fight because he was giving him so much trouble every time he tried to do something.
> 
> ...




I never said that Shields would submit Kampmann. I see him winning a decision. Shields is a better wrestler so the odds are that he will be on top if it hits the mat. I don't think that Kampmann has a good enough guard to be able to submit or sweep Shields off of his back. Probably just good enough to avoid any significant damage but will cause him to clearly lose the round.

If Martin manages to put Jake on his back, I don't think that he will deliver a lot of damage, and I don't see him coming close to submitting him either. Shields has never been submitted in MMA.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Nick_V03 said:


> [/B]
> 
> I never said that Shields would submit Kampmann. I see him winning a decision. Shields is a better wrestler so the odds are that he will be on top if it hits the mat. I don't think that Kampmann has a good enough guard to be able to submit or sweep Shields off of his back. Probably just good enough to avoid any significant damage but will cause him to clearly lose the round.
> 
> If Martin manages to put Jake on his back, I don't think that he will deliver a lot of damage, and I don't see him coming close to submitting him either. Shields has never been submitted in MMA.


Kampmann isn't a very strong guy, he's well rounded a good technical striker. And his take down defense isn't bad, but it's not that great, not enough to neutralize Shields. Shields can easily Fitch him IMO, or in the instance he's dominating he can manufacture a sub (he's one of the best in the biz). Either way, win for Shields, GSP/Kos V Shields in like March or whatever.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

osmium said:


> Whoever is on top will have the grappling advantage top game positional dominance is where both of them are really good. Shields isn't subbing Kampmann if he wins it will be by stalling like he did with Miller. Kampmann is going to take Shields down at some point he doesn't have a great guard game to worry about.


Shields has some of the best sweeps in mma. Miller took him down a few times and 90% of the time he did he ended up on the bottom within 2 mins!

This is a guy who beat Jon Fitch in a pure grappling match! He out-fitched Fitch! I hope Kampmann doesn't take his grappling credentials as lightly as you do!!


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Wow... that is just alot of excuses.
> 
> That is a whole lot of excuses... lmao..
> 
> ...


Lawler isn't good. They aren't excuses either they are factual breakdowns of their skillsets. Unlike your breakdown of these guys submitted cans a couple times that means they are high quality grapplers.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Kampmann's going to stuff the takedown and knock Shields out on the feet. There's my prediction, should be a great fight, and a fight that's dependant on how good Kampmann's TDD is. The talk from Xtreme Couture is that his wrestling is massively under-rated, so I guess we'll have to wait and see. I have faith though, and see Kampmann taking it.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

osmium said:


> Lawler isn't good. They aren't excuses either they are factual breakdowns of their skillsets. Unlike your breakdown of these guys submitted cans a couple times that means they are high quality grapplers.


That was not a "factual" breakdown of Hendo, Lawler, Sakurai, Pyle, Condit, Imada, and Okami in the least.

That was a list of excuses. A list of very poor excuses. When Sheilds defeats Kampmann you will likley say "Kampmann is not really noted for having a great grappling pedigree so what did we expect".


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

osmium said:


> Lawler isn't good. They aren't excuses either they are factual breakdowns of their skillsets. Unlike your breakdown of these guys submitted cans a couple times that means they are high quality grapplers.


:confused02: you lose all credibility when your arguement consists of questioning the grappling ability of Hendo (olympic wrestler), Sakurai (world famous for his lucha libre and shoot wrestling), Pyle (16 sub wins to his name), Imada (black belt in judo and sub of the year winner) and Okami (who just convincingly outgrappled Munoz - a NCAA div 1 wrestler)... 

Yup you are right no high quality grapplers there :sarcastic12:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

edlavis88 said:


> :confused02: you lose all credibility when your arguement consists of questioning the grappling ability of Hendo (olympic wrestler), Sakurai (world famous for his lucha libre and shoot wrestling), Pyle (16 sub wins to his name), Imada (black belt in judo and sub of the year winner) and Okami (who just convincingly outgrappled Munoz - a NCAA div 1 wrestler)...
> 
> Yup you are right no high quality grapplers there :sarcastic12:


Really now, show me where I said Pyle and Imada weren't good grapplers. You do a lot of BJJ off your back in Greco? I wasn't aware of that, my mistake. I didn't realize Hendo wrestled in the olympics at the age of 40 either.



_RIVAL_ said:


> That was not a "factual" breakdown of Hendo, Lawler, Sakurai, Pyle, Condit, Imada, and Okami in the least.
> 
> That was a list of excuses. A list of very poor excuses. When Sheilds defeats Kampmann you will likley say "Kampmann is not really noted for having a great grappling pedigree so what did we expect".


So you are disputing that Imada is a 155 pounder, Pyle is a gatekeeper, and Okami is bad off of his back. You are seriously one of the worst posters on this site. Reply with an actual counter argument or don't reply.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

osmium said:


> Really now, show me where I said Pyle and Imada weren't good grapplers. You do a lot of BJJ off your back in Greco? I wasn't aware of that, my mistake. I didn't realize Hendo wrestled in the olympics at the age of 40 either.


No you don't but Sakurai was well trained in submission wrestling, Mayhem is a brown belt in BJJ and as you say Imada and Pyle are genuine world class grapplers.
I see no way in which Kampmann is going to be able to offer more than them. His sweeps aren't incredible and all his submissions have come from top position against guys not known for their grappling skills. It's not like Kampmann is pulling out subs from the bottom like Diaz or Maia.
I think if Kampmann gets top position and goes for a sub he'll get swept, Jake is just so far ahead of him on the ground.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

osmium said:


> So you are disputing that Imada is a 155 pounder, Pyle is a gatekeeper, and Okami is bad off of his back


and Hendo is too old...Lawler sucks...Miller is "slightly" above average....Sakurai has always been mediocre in his grappling... these are all excuses that you've used in this thread....what is your excuse for Condit? I want to hear it.



osmium said:


> You are seriously one of the worst posters on this site.


See now that is just uncalled for. If you don't agree with me that's fine. But no need to make insulting comments.

You just got the second neg rep I've passed out all year... I signed it for you.





osmium said:


> Reply with an actual counter argument or don't reply.


Looks like you just don't like the fact that I'm calling you on your B.S.

You're trying to discredit every notable victory that the fighter in question has and I'm not going to let you.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

> osmium is among the most hated on the net.


^^^ quote from rep bar
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I still think Kampman can win though.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> Kampmann's going to stuff the takedown and knock Shields out on the feet. There's my prediction, should be a great fight, and a fight that's dependant on how good Kampmann's TDD is. The talk from Xtreme Couture is that *his wrestling is massively under-rated*, so I guess we'll have to wait and see. I have faith though, and see Kampmann taking it.


When did this happen....definitely not underrated his last few fights. Unless he's stronger and has improved his wrestling since June, it's not underrated at all. 

His submission attacks - he's among the best at WW, that's probably underrated, good hips and legs, aggressive - just not very strong. Though, Jake Shields is the absolute best MMA Jiu Jitsu man at WW, defense and offense.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> and Hendo is too old...Lawler sucks...Miller is "slightly" above average....Sakurai has always been mediocre in his grappling... these are all excuses that you've used in this thread....what is your excuse for Condit? I want to hear it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I said Lawler isn't good not that he sucks though subbing him isn't exactly a herculean feat. I am not making excuses either I am breaking down the reality of those fighters grappling skills and I'm not discrediting the wins. 

I am telling you that what you are using as examples of why this guy is somehow the greatest grappler ever don't hold up because he is facing guys with huge deficiencies in that area. The information all of us have at present suggests Shields is a very good grappler most notably in the areas of achieving and maintaining positional dominance. Not that he is an unstoppable monster who easily submits every blackbelt in the world as you would have me believe.

You aren't calling anyone out on anything. You haven't even disputed any of my claims with a counter argument, outside of subbing cans means you are a great grappler, though you have outright lied about what I have stated. Because they are all facts or opinions based on what has actually happened. Negative repping me isn't a counter argument just as your textual representations of locking yourself in a closet and screaming "No!" repeatedly aren't counter arguments.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

osmium said:


> I said Lawler isn't good not that he sucks though subbing him isn't exactly a herculean feat. I am not making excuses either I am breaking down the reality of those fighters grappling skills and I'm not discrediting the wins.
> 
> I am telling you that what you are using as examples of why this guy is somehow the greatest grappler ever don't hold up because he is facing guys with huge deficiencies in that area. The information all of us have at present suggests Shields is a very good grappler most notably in the areas of achieving and maintaining positional dominance. Not that he is an unstoppable monster who easily submits every blackbelt in the world as you would have me believe.
> 
> You aren't calling anyone out on anything. You haven't even disputed any of my claims with a counter argument, outside of subbing cans means you are a great grappler, though you have outright lied about what I have stated. Because they are all facts or opinions based on what has actually happened. Negative repping me isn't a counter argument just as your textual representations of locking yourself in a closet and screaming "No!" repeatedly aren't counter arguments.



There really is nothing left when it comes to debating with you because you will simply make an excuse. 

I'm surprised utterly that you didn't make one for him beating Condit yet... but than again you can't because Condit was fresh for that fight with Shields having subbed Trigg in round one of his fight.. Shields had just fought three rounds with Yushin Okami just to turn around and fight 3 more rounds with a virtually fresh Carlos Condit and win a unanimous decision.

Condit is just as dangerous as Kampmann. In fact that fight was razor close between Carlos and Martin. 

So yeah... and I didn't neg you for a rebuttal. I negged you for being disrespectful on the board just because you don't agree.

Keep the debates civil. If not there is a process in which that is dealt with.

As for the rest of your post... that stuff is nonsense. You should really refrain from an attempt at a witty roast it comes off as arrogant and disrespectful..

And I stick to my opinion that you are just trying to discredit this fighters victories over multiple title holders and world ranked fighters to fit your argument.

That's just weak.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> There really is nothing left when it comes to debating with you because you will simply make an excuse.
> 
> I'm surprised utterly that you didn't make one for him beating Condit yet... but than again you can't because Condit was fresh for that fight with Shields having subbed Trigg in round one of his fight.. Shields had just fought three rounds with Yushin Okami just to turn around and fight 3 more rounds with a virtually fresh Carlos Condit and win a unanimous decision.
> 
> ...


Really dispute the facts I gave about why Sakurai isn't a great grappler. Explain how he gets caught in armbars easily and repeatedly if he is so good at it and why he hasn't won by submission in 6 years. Because you haven't yet all you have said is "No!" and offered no historical evidence that would counter it. 

That doesn't discredit his win against Mach it puts it into perspective. He should beat Mach if he gets it to the ground because he is clearly far better than him there. I haven't made any excuses for any of his wins he earned them all they just don't demonstrate what you people are claiming they do. 

What you are claiming is absurd. You are saying that no one can ever claim that any fighter isn't perfect and great at everything otherwise you are discrediting everyone who beat them. No, that just means they weren't better at something thus why they lost.

I stated from the start that Imada, Pyle, and Condit are the most complete grapplers he has beaten thus those are the most impressive demonstrations of his skill as a grappler not Hendo, Okami, Mach, and Lawler. Though I am not confusing Hendo at 40 with Hendo at 30, Condit today with Condit 4 years ago, or Okami today with Okami at 170 4 years ago like you are. Kampmann's win over Condit is more impressive because he beat a better version of him.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

osmium said:


> Really dispute the facts I gave about why Sakurai isn't a great grappler. Explain how he gets caught in armbars easily and repeatedly if he is so good at it and why he hasn't won by submission in 6 years. Because you haven't yet all you have said is "No!" and offered no historical evidence that would counter it.


Had you read my inital post on Sakurai you'd note that I stated Shields defeated Sakurai when Sakurai was 19-2 with his only 2 losses coming to Matt Hughes and Anderson Silva.

At this time he had 9 wins via submission...5 armbars, a toe hold, 1 heel hook, and 2 Rear naked chokes, 

Half of his victories were by sub. Your "he hasn't finished a fight in 6 years" theory doesn't pan out because that fight was in 2002 when Mach was still a beast..



osmium said:


> That doesn't discredit his win against Mach it puts it into perspective.


No it doesn't because you withhold info to try to validate your point.



osmium said:


> He should beat Mach if he gets it to the ground because he is clearly far better than him there. I haven't made any excuses for any of his wins he earned them all they just don't demonstrate what you people are claiming they do.


Of course it does. It proves that Jake is better than anybody that he's ever faced on the ground.. 



osmium said:


> What you are claiming is absurd. You are saying that no one can ever claim that any fighter isn't perfect and great at everything otherwise you are discrediting everyone who beat them. No, that just means they weren't better at something thus why they lost.


No what you are doing is giving an excuse for every win that Jake has.. saying "well they're not as good as Jake is on the ground" Well osmium.. for lack of a better word... "duh" That is the point that I am making here.. that Jake is one of if not the most dangerous fighter on the ground in the 170lb weight class.



osmium said:


> I stated from the start that Imada, Pyle, and Condit are the most complete grapplers he has beaten thus those are the most impressive demonstrations of his skill as a grappler not Hendo, Okami, Mach, and Lawler.


I disagree completly he beat a prime Sakurai, a well rounded and Hendo who by the way deliverd his famous power to Jakes chin and still couldn't put him away, did more on compustrike than Lawler in their fight and BTW he didn't have Okami on his back that whole fight so get that out of your debate.



osmium said:


> Though I am not confusing Hendo at 40 with Hendo at 30


Why not? Hendo at 40 just defeated 3 dangerous UFC vets. And Hendo at 37 defeated Wanderlei Silva and Vitor Belfort back to back....

As a matter of fact a 30 Dan Hendo couldn't even defeat Wanderlei Silva.



osmium said:


> Condit today with Condit 4 years ago


Sheilds today, with a Shields of 4 years ago coming right out of a 3 round war with Yushin.



osmium said:


> or Okami today with Okami at 170


175 not 170. If you're going to complain about factual debate I suggest you get yours right. So your excuse is that Yushin lost because he moved down in weight?



osmium said:


> Kampmann's win over Condit is more impressive because he beat a better version of him.


Martain Kampmann wins a controversial split Decision over Carlos Condit.

Jake Shields wins a majority decision over Carlos Condit after he just fought a 3 round war with Yushin Okami less than an hour before....

And Martins victory is more impressive? Jake fought six rounds that night.


----------



## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

I have already asnwered your claims about Mach's record he subbed cans that doesn't mean anything that is like saying crocop has legit BJJ because he subbed Barry. He hasn't gotten a sub in 6 years because he is a striker and he has been fighting legitimate fighters who know what they are doing. Theoretically he should be better at grappling 6-8 years of training later but he gets easily subbed instead because he is facing people who are legitimate submission grapplers.

Okami is clearly a lot bigger and better now than he was then. Condit is clearly better at everything now. If Jake was able to beat Okami or Condit now that would be a lot more impressive than beating them then. How good Jake was then compared to now is irrelevant becuase the quality of the win is based on your opponents skill and record at the time not yours.

It doesn't matter that he fought twice Condit was coming off a long winstreak in a televised promotion with a considerably better resume and better skills when he fought Kampmann. You are assigning the future success of Okami and Condit to wins for Shields that came before it.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

osmium said:


> It doesn't matter that he fought twice Condit was coming off a long winstreak in a televised promotion with a considerably better resume and better skills when he fought Kampmann. .



wow... where is Ashton?


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

i have nothing against Kampmann but reading this thread has made me want Shields to win so so so much more. I can't believe the amount of guys who doubt his credentials, it boggles the mind!


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

Shields will take this one to the ground at will.

Kampmann will be in for a loooong night.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

*A few last minute words from Jake Shields..*.


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## Guymay (Jul 6, 2009)

Kampmann doesn't get enough Credit for his Grappling , His Sprawl is really fast kinda remind me of prime Cro Cop Sprawl . Maybe Because Shield is so great at that one thing people Write Kampmann out . But i think Kampmann will get the Very close decision because his striking is so much better and untill he get put on his back he will land some nice punches and kicks on shields and maybe use it to surprise shields and put him on the back as well to win the round .


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## HDaren (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm going with Shields, 2nd round, TKO


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I'm going with Shields as well!

But UD


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## RudeBoySes (Aug 9, 2010)

Frank Shamrock essentially said Shields sucks.. "_he leg humped his opponent all night and killed our ratings_".. lol






i think Kampmann takes this..


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## the ultimate (Mar 5, 2007)

Come on Kampmann.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Im rooting for Kampmann all the way but I see shields upsetting me once again.


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## Dan0 (Aug 22, 2008)

I'm picking Shields, but I'm rooting for The Hitman.


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

the fight im really looking forward to is here!!


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## suffersystem (Feb 4, 2007)

Dan0 said:


> I'm picking Shields, but I'm rooting for The Hitman.


I'm thinking the same thing.


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## SerJ (Sep 17, 2009)

Not really sure who wins this one. Shields takes it if it hits the ground and Martin takes it if it stays standing. Hmmm, tough pick. I'm not a Shields fan at all so I'm going for Kampmann but something is telling Shields subs him. 1-2 on my main card picks. I'm gonna say Shields Takes this.


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## Shoegazer (Jun 23, 2007)

Kinda getting the feeling that Shields gets shocked tonight, but we'll see. Shields is a beast for sure.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Shields looks so puny compared to when he fought Hendo.


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## Gyser (Oct 13, 2009)

LOL at Bruce not saying Strikeforce.


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## BWoods (Apr 8, 2007)

Hoping Kampmann takes the win by hurting Shields early and using his striking to keep the distance. I dread seeing this fight hit the ground because I see Shields getting the submission eventually.


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## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

Gyser said:


> LOL at Bruce not saying Strikeforce.


That made me laugh out loud!


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## tap nap or snap (Jan 28, 2009)

and heeerrrreeeeee we goooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Syndicate (Oct 24, 2010)

AHH YES! SHIELDS GETS THE SUBMISSION!!!!!!!:thumbsup:


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## SerJ (Sep 17, 2009)

Jake is about to start getting the boos


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Shields tired already?


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Shields gassing. Must have been a tough cut for him.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

man I am wishing for a kampman win!


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## Shoegazer (Jun 23, 2007)

Rd 1 to Shields


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## SerJ (Sep 17, 2009)

rygu said:


> Shields tired already?


Might be. Rohan did Shields had a tough weight cut


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

Round 1 Shields 10-9


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## Jawni (Sep 27, 2009)

Wow, Shields is looking weak out there. If this gets to the 3rd round, I think he's getting KO'd or Subbed


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## BWoods (Apr 8, 2007)

I heard Shields say something as he went to the corner about the weight cut. Shields might be in trouble with his cardio.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Not sure who that round should go to. Jake "The Human Blanket" Shields held Kampmann down for a while but did absolutely nothing with it other then pass his guard.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Shields is gassed already..... wow.


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## SerJ (Sep 17, 2009)

We get it Joe Rogan. Shields has superior grappling abilities. He is Dick riding him hard. Shields keeps cheating with those short grabs.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

shields is a wizard so far with the grappling... but his stand up on the other hand.... my nephew looks like he has better standup


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## Gyser (Oct 13, 2009)

Gassing but still getting on top of Martin, just shows what superior grappling does for you.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Shields is going to get destroyed by GSP if they fight.


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## suffersystem (Feb 4, 2007)

I must say, Sheilds is not looking like he has anything to do other than pass his guard, and he's not even having an easy time with that.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

This weight cut has *really* hurt Jake Shields. Even if he wins this fight I don't see him having a future at 170. Just does not have his conditioning. Still out-grappling Kampmann, but he'd get destroyed by GSP with conditioning like this.

However, I'm enjoying watching Shields work on the ground. Jake works on the ground, he doesn't just lay in the guard. Not sure how Shields has got a reputation as a boring fighter TBH. 8 out of his last 10 fights have resulted in a finish.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

This is the guy that's supposed to challenge GSP? God, GSP vs. Sheilds would be worse than GSP vs. Fitch


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## Jawni (Sep 27, 2009)

Shields does NO DAMAGE on top! Damn! What a Ln'P'er


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

Wow Jake is very very tired right now, if he loses this fight he should definitely move up to MW where he probably has a better chance of winning a title anyways.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

420atalon said:


> Shields is going to get destroyed by GSP if they fight.


Quoted for extreme truth.


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## SerJ (Sep 17, 2009)

I don't think this performance is going to get him a title shot. His grappling is looking good but he isn't doing anything with it. They should really score points for Kampmann since he keeps getting up and stuffing some TDs.


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## Shoegazer (Jun 23, 2007)

Couple big knees from Kampmann, but still gotta give rd 2 to Jake.

20-18 Shields.


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## BWoods (Apr 8, 2007)

Shields may get the nod for points and top control but Martin Kampmann is winning this fight in my opinion or at least tied it up in the second.


----------



## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

People say John McCarthy is the best referee out there?

LOL.


----------



## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Is this scheduled for 5?

It might really suck if you gased in rd 1 & had to go 4 more.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

at 185 jake would meet the stand up up silva so i guess potentially wrestling with gsp was the smarter option for him


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Shields is in for a rough road at 170.


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

Then again Sheilds really never looks impressive when he wins. But somehow he always does. He didn't look good against Mayhem and got wrecked by Henderson for a round, but still came back and won.


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## Syndicate (Oct 24, 2010)

jhg gh j jhg


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Shields looks bad out there.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

ugly fight for both fighters but i give it to jake due to dominant positioning....


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## Gyser (Oct 13, 2009)

I think we've just watched a zombie get a title shot guys LOL


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Ari said:


> Then again Sheilds really never looks impressive when he wins. But somehow he always does. He didn't look good against Mayhem and got wrecked by Henderson for a round, but still came back and won.


Because he hasn't fought any top wrestlers with an all around game.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

GSP would fvck shields up really bad


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

I give the fight to Shields 29-28, winning the first two rounds. He really needs to move to MW though he cannot survive 5 rounds against anybody, let alone GSP.


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## Shoegazer (Jun 23, 2007)

Last round even.

30-28 Shields.


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## Emericanaddict (Dec 31, 2006)

Pathetic for both guys man. Both dudes looked bad and they should feel bad. Jake for not controlling his weight cut properly. Martin for being a offing moron just like against Dailey. God kampmann is stupid.

Whoever made a second account which has zero post's (The fake account is under BadGuy187) just to neg rep me and then didnt even leave the name of your fake account, has no balls. If youve got a problem with me say something don't hide behind fake accounts because your afraid I'll neg you back.

Next time you disagree with me on something, why don't you post and debate the subject with me instead of trolling around. Im not an ass and im not gonna neg rep you for expressing your oppinion over mine.

Dont be so lame dude.


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## Dakota? (Dec 27, 2009)

Yawn.


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## SerJ (Sep 17, 2009)

And here come the boos for Shields. I wouldn't mind seeing him against GSP to see who the better grappler is. He needs to improve his gas tank or he will be abused and molested. Kampmann did not fight smart in this fight. He should have kept it standing as much as possible.


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## Abrissbirne (Jul 4, 2010)

Shields actually said its the weight cut right after he got back to his corner after round one.
Close fight.


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## Dan0 (Aug 22, 2008)

So I'm 4-0 in the main card.
Now Velasquez has to beat Lesnar so I go undefeated tonight!


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

Dakota? said:


> Yawn.


get used to yawning with jake shields around


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## Gyser (Oct 13, 2009)

One of the judges just bucked the recent trend in MMA judging by scoring Kampmann the fight there, odd!


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## Shoegazer (Jun 23, 2007)

Fitch and/or GSP will maul Shields by rd 3.


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## the ultimate (Mar 5, 2007)

The weight cut obviously affected Shields but my god, he sucked ass. 

Kampmann disappointed though. I think he would have won if he stayed on his feet in the 3rd. Instead he kept going after that same choke on Shields.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

I gave it to kampmann, he really beat down a pathetic looking shields


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Wow judges gave closer scores than I had thought, had the 3rd judge went 29-28 Kampmann instead I would have been very happy.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

Figured that a judge might give Kampmann some of those rounds due to Shields doing absolutely nothing but hold on.


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## Shoegazer (Jun 23, 2007)

Jesus Christ!!!

30-27 kampmann??

This has to be the renegade judge scoring shutouts for Sanchez and Hamill


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

well shields won....hes gonna need to pull a small miracle if he wants to do that against gsp.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Man I would boycott watching sheilds vs fitch..that has boring all over it. GSP would kill jake anywhere standing up or on the ground.


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## deanmzi (Oct 15, 2006)

Abrissbirne said:


> Shields actually said its the weight cut right after he got back to his corner after round one.
> Close fight.


well - I guess after GSP busts him up a bit he can go up to 185 and triangle Chael Sonnen in his return fight


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## BWoods (Apr 8, 2007)

One of these judges tonight is a pure idiot. In every fight one of the judges has had some bizarre decision that nobody else even considered in the slightest. I wanted Kampmann to win but he didn't get two rounds, or any rounds, considering the rules' bias toward wrestling and top control.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

It was 30-27 Shields no? Personally I thought Kampmann won that.


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## morninglightmt (Sep 7, 2008)

what a robbery. did Sheilds actually have any sub attempts? aside from a few knees in the clinch, he maybe landed 3 punches the entire fight.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Shoegazer said:


> Jesus Christ!!!
> 
> 30-27 kampmann??
> 
> This has to be the renegade judge scoring shutouts for Sanchez and Hamill


The judge that gave it to Kampmann scored it 29-28.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Shields can forget 170, or find a much more effective way of making the weight, because there's no way he deserves a title shot after that. A well conditioned Shields would have performed so much better than that. He had the positions, but never the cardio to pull out the submission. Move up to 185 and set-up the ultimate grappling match against Demian Maia for me. I would LOVE to see that fight!


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## deanmzi (Oct 15, 2006)

Shoegazer said:


> Jesus Christ!!!
> 
> 30-27 kampmann??
> 
> This has to be the renegade judge scoring shutouts for Sanchez and Hamill


it was 29-28 Kampmann, 30-27 Shields, 29-28 Shields


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## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

LMAO at Kampmann's face after Bruce Buffer said his name. Kampmann could have EASILY beaten Sheilds, but he fought like an idiot. I wasn't sure exactly how to score the fight, but I got the credits for picking Sheilds


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

BWoods said:


> One of these judges tonight is a pure idiot. In every fight one of the judges has had some bizarre decision that nobody else even considered in the slightest. I wanted Kampmann to win but he didn't get two rounds, or any rounds, considering the rules' bias toward wrestling and top control.


I disagree completely. Jake Shields clearly won the first round in my eyes, and Martin Kampmann clearly won the third round. 
The second round could have easily been argued either way which is why i think a 29-28 score for either fighter would have been reasonable.

I personally scored it 29-28 for Shields, and the judges were definitely not "pure idiots" for scoring the fight the way they did.


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## kay_o_ken (Jan 26, 2009)

morninglightmt said:


> what a robbery. did Sheilds actually have any sub attempts? aside from a few knees in the clinch, he maybe landed 3 punches the entire fight.


I agree, sheilds was busted and gassed, kampann looked the same as when he walked in the ring, oh well sheilds has zero chance against gsp


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## deanmzi (Oct 15, 2006)

yeah - Martin should have let him up in the 3rd round, maybe would have caught him something that would have knocked him to his back


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## Crester (Apr 5, 2009)

That was an absolutely DISGUSTING decision for the fight. Really makes you think that the UFC is fixed!


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

Crester said:


> That was an absolutely DISGUSTING decision for the fight. Really makes you think that the UFC is fixed!


Why the hell would the UFC fix the fight so that the gassed out guy who everyone is booing wins?
Forget the dumb conspiracy, Shields outclassed Kampmann in terms of grappling, was clearly the aggressor and had octagon control, and kept the fight on the ground to avoid Kampmann's striking.

How did he not win the fight?


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

THE UFC HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THE JUDGING. 

Jesus christ. Shields won that fight. It wasn't pretty, but he won that fight. If Nik Lentz beat Andre Winner, then Shields definitely beat Kampmann.


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## Crester (Apr 5, 2009)

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> Why the hell would the UFC fix the fight so that the gassed out guy who everyone is booing wins?
> Forget the dumb conspiracy, Shields outclassed Kampmann in terms of grappling, was clearly the aggressor and had octagon control, and kept the fight on the ground to avoid Kampmann's striking.
> 
> How did he not win the fight?


Fixed so that now Shields can fight GSP!!!


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## OHKO (Jul 11, 2010)

That was a rather boring fight. Jake took Kampmann down a couple of times but didn't do any significant damage. I thought that Kampmann should have tried to keep the fight standing as long as possible. Instead he tried to grapple with Jake. Probably could have won the 3rd round and the entire fight if he fought smart and more aggressively.


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## Lock Bresnar (Nov 16, 2009)

Dana paid off the judges to protect his investment. All Shields does is get the guy on the ground and cover him. He can't punch, so he kicks and takes them down. Sure, he is great at wrestling, but that is ALL he ever does. I can't wait to see him get his ass beat.


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

I was disgusted in the decision, I don't see how it could be scored any other way than 2 & 3 to Kampmann, non-damage wrestling wins over the judges again I guess.

Though I will be happy to admit, Kampmann would have won decisively if he had played it smart.


----------



## anderton46 (Apr 23, 2010)

For the judge who scored it 30-27 I think you should hang your head in shame. I thought it was 29-28 and could have gone either way, but IMO the damage Kampman gave should have gotten the nod over the control Shields displayed.

I was very very unimpressed with shields, I understand Kampman is a good grappler too, but he got into some great positions and got no-where near a finish, not even close. He's not a MMArtist hes like the one dimensional guys from UFC 1. I wouldn't be surprised if Dana withdraws his title shot statement, although it would be an easy way to boost GSP or Kos's record. 

He showed zero ability on his feet, absolutely none.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Shields won the first round, Kampmann the second and the third Shields barely pulled it off because Kampmann decided to play the ground game. It was Kampmann's fight...poor judgement. Kampmann is still the shit! Shields almost got a rude awakening. All in all a great fight!

This card was WICKED!


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

This split descision really upset me, knowing how close my man Martin had come to reaching that "new level" that he deserves to be at... This fight could EASILY have gone the other way, and the judge who scored it 30-27 needs a mental health check...

This fight made me kind of a sad panda, but still glad that Kampmann got to show he can hang with one of the "best in the world"


----------



## OHKO (Jul 11, 2010)

If Kampmann fought smart and won the fight, I wonder what would have happened. Would Kampmann stand a chance against GSP? Who would Jake face if he lost the fight?


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

Jake looked absolutely horrible in that fight. The cut to welterweight is just too much for him. He needs to stay at 185 I think he would be more successful there any way. 

Scored it 1st and 3rd to jake. 29-28


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## kay_o_ken (Jan 26, 2009)

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> Why the hell would the UFC fix the fight so that the gassed out guy who everyone is booing wins?
> Forget the dumb conspiracy, Shields outclassed Kampmann in terms of *grappling, was clearly the aggressor and had octagon control, and kept the fight on the ground to avoid Kampmann's striking*.
> 
> How did he not win the fight?


yeah but what good do any of those things do if you dont harm the guy in any way shape or form? practically any one of kampanns shots did more damage than sheilds was able to inflict over the whole fight, id be mad with the decision if the thought of sheilds getting raped by gsp didnt appeal to me so much 

also, i remember getting negged to shit a while back for calling sheilds a boring fighter lol


----------



## TanyaJade (Aug 31, 2010)

Budhisten said:


> This split descision really upset me, knowing how close my man Martin had come to reaching that "new level" that he deserves to be at... This fight could EASILY have gone the other way, and the judge who scored it 30-27 needs a mental health check...
> 
> This fight made me kind of a sad panda, but still glad that Kampmann got to show he can hang with one of the "best in the world"


Martin if anything showed that he definitely has the skills and the talent to be a top 5 welterweight. The problem is, he fights like an absolute idiot. Getting his brains scrambled by Paul Daley when he had the clear advantage on the ground, and trying to grapple with Jake Shields of all people are probobly some of the dumbest mistakes I've ever seen a fighter make. Once The Hitman gets his head on straight, I have no doubt that he will be a top contender soon.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Jake had a very bad wieght cut. You can hear him tell Gilbert Melenez after round 1.

Rogan even said Jake looked horribly unhealthy at the weigh ins.. I think Jake needs at least one more fight to settle into back into 170 before he challenges for the title.


----------



## GlasgowKiss (Sep 18, 2010)

Very impressed with Shield's top control, but that was it.


----------



## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Hawndo said:


> I was disgusted in the decision, I don't see how it could be scored any other way than 2 & 3 to Kampmann, non-damage wrestling wins over the judges again I guess.
> 
> Though I will be happy to admit, Kampmann would have won decisively if he had played it smart.


Pretty much, I guess Shields won via getting his ass kicked and never threatening with submissions or strikes a single time in the fight. The 30-27 score was an embarrassment. It isn't like Shields was ontop for the entirety of the fight and you can award him rounds on position alone. He was getting beat on, in a submission, or on the bottom for the majority of both the second and third. 

What happened to that amazing grappling also? I told you guys Kampmann was the best grappler he ever fought and it showed. Shields had a lot of trouble taking him down and keeping him down and wasn't able to deal damage or go for submissions on the ground. 

I thought I was the one with excuses for performances Rival. Yeah, I guess it was the weight cut he has made a bunch of times before not that Kampmann was beating on him and made him fight harder than anyone else he has fought to do anything.


----------



## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

It's too bad Kampmann didn't keep this fight on the feet more because he would have won. Even when Jake was fresh in the first round he couldn't do much to Kampmann on the ground. That speaks volumes about how good of a fighter Kampmann is - to not get submitted by a guy like Shields and to stuff his take downs - Kampann is truly awesome.

Fitch/Kampmann anybody?


----------



## Hendo (Mar 2, 2007)

*Jake shield fought all is life at 170*

So wtf with the cut weight excuse only fought 3 time at 185 and was always consider like a really small MW. Gsp probably heavier then him.


----------



## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Yea I dont get why people keep saying all this stuff about weight cut, he isnt exactly a huge WW.. 

His last 3 fights were in MW though, so maybe he got over confident with his weight cutting and had to push himself the last few weeks of training camp... who knows


----------



## Sicilian_Esq (Sep 7, 2008)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Jake had a very bad wieght cut. You can hear him tell Gilbert Melenez after round 1.
> 
> Rogan even said Jake looked horribly unhealthy at the weigh ins.. I think Jake needs at least one more fight to settle into back into 170 before he challenges for the title.


This. 

Kampmann pulled a Sonnen. The fight was his, and he wasn't smart and lost it.


----------



## joey__stalin (Dec 31, 2006)

Interesting to see how Martin dropping Jake twice with a knees to the dome is outweighted by Jake just grappling his way to mount and doing nothing/no damage with it...


----------



## Blitzz (Apr 13, 2009)

I think with the muscle he put on and the back problem in his camp made the cut a lot harder than he probably thought it would be. I am confident we will see a much better Jake Shields against GSP.


----------



## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

He was lean at 185, he had to cut a lot of muscle. That is significant.


----------



## Doktor87 (Sep 10, 2010)

Being danish i was obviously very disappointed with this fight. Kampmann had improved his ground defense and did better than i expected , but still he didnt utilize his game plan very well. 
i was also very suprised with the judges scorecards... and must agree with *osmium* the 30/27 didnt make ANY sense


----------



## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Does is really matter that he had a hard time cutting weight? In my opinion that's his fault alone. What you do outside the ring affects your actions in the ring, so that he had too much fat/muscle on him and the cut went bad is not really a valid excuse for gassing. If anything it's a reason to not cut weight anymore. Anyway, long story short: it was Jake's own fault, I thought Kampmann won the last two rounds but I knew the judges scored round 3 for Shields. The 10-9 scoring system fails again.

:thumb02:


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Jake had a very bad wieght cut. You can hear him tell Gilbert Melenez after round 1.
> 
> Rogan even said Jake looked horribly unhealthy at the weigh ins.. I think Jake needs at least one more fight to settle into back into 170 before he challenges for the title.


Wow Rival raise01: Shields was literally already out after the first round and still pulled it off.

Your boy is really something special! I just can't believe he still won that fight. WOW!!!

I would say one more fight against Fitch for the number 1 spot :thumbsup:

or if the weight cut is really too tough for him, he should just keep fighting at 185. 

but he definitely won this fight guys!


----------



## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

Doktor87 said:


> Being danish i was obviously very disappointed with this fight. Kampmann had improved his ground defense and did better than i expected , but still he didnt utilize his game plan very well.
> i was also very suprised with the judges scorecards... and must agree with *osmium* the 30/27 didnt make ANY sense


Damn, another Dane, welcome, stick around mate 

As for Kampmann I see his next fight being Fitch, which in my mind became much more interesting after watching the fight last night... Kampmann has good TDD, decent ground and excellent stand-up... Which is the way he has to beat Fitch... Defend the takedown, and if you can't - get your ass up


----------



## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Hendo said:


> So wtf with the cut weight excuse only fought 3 time at 185 and was always consider like a really small MW. Gsp probably heavier then him.


Not making excuses for Shields, but he looked like he added a good deal of muscle for his string of middleweight fights in Strikeforce. A lot of guys just wont cut much or any weight when they fight up a weight class. Shields actually put on a good deal of muscle and looked like a real middleweight when he did it. Im sure this weight cut was actually pretty damn tough for him.


----------



## SigFig (Sep 22, 2009)

joshua7789 said:


> Not making excuses for Shields, but he looked like he added a good deal of muscle for his string of middleweight fights in Strikeforce. A lot of guys just wont cut much or any weight when they fight up a weight class. Shields actually put on a good deal of muscle and looked like a real middleweight when he did it. Im sure this weight cut was actually pretty damn tough for him.


I'm an admitted Shields hater, but I tend to agree with this. Mentioned it to some folks prior to this match...


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## Inkdot (Jun 15, 2009)

Shields had NOTHING in terms of real threat, he did no damage, tried no submissions, he won by control and control only with absolute zero actual threat.

Kampmann beat him up man, made him tired, got some awesome knees to the head that dropped Shields from the clinch twice. Always trying to lay down some hurt or go for subs.


This is the kinda shit that makes me start to frown on this sport a bit. Control in itself is scored way to high.

I only watched the fight once and I'm not saying Kampmann steamrolled Shields at all. And who knows maybie ill change my opinion on who won after a second watch. But really, I cant remember a single time Shields put Kampmann in danger and he did virtually no damage. He won just by wrestling, just contolling.

Just saying damage should count more, positions and control less. I mean the idea behind passing guard is to get into a better position to better lay down some hurting or subs. Passing just for passings sake is useless unless you do something with it. If you could do more damage in another position you havent improved shit but you still get points from judges. Dropping people with knees are apparently worthless unless you get the KO.

Atleast one judge scored it 29-28 Kampmann.



Danm2501 said:


> THE UFC HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THE JUDGING.
> 
> Jesus christ. Shields won that fight. It wasn't pretty, but he won that fight. I*f Nik Lentz beat Andre Winner, then Shields definitely beat Kampmann*.


I hear you but two wrongs dosen't make one right. I'm still hoping for a small reform on the judging criteria, one that isnt hopelessly biased towards wrestling, I don't want any rule changes. How can control beat damage/threat in a FIGHT?!


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Inkdot said:


> Shields had NOTHING in terms of real threat, he did no damage, tried no submissions, he won by control and control only with absolute zero actual threat.
> 
> Kampmann beat him up man, made him tired, got some awesome knees to the head that dropped Shields from the clinch twice. Always trying to lay down some hurt or go for subs.
> 
> ...


How can three and a half minutes of your opponent beating on you standing, controlling and beating on you on the ground, and locking up a submission going for the finish be overtaken by a minute and a half of ground control where there was zero damage from strikes and zero submissions anywhere close to being applied is the better question.

Shields was getting beaten up and outgrappled in the clinch though he wasn't holding on to Kampmann's legs pressing him against the cage for the entire fight like Lentz was doing in that fight or like what Rashad did to Rampage. Winner got cage cuddled for like four and a half minutes of every round. I think I might have felt Winner deserved the decision too for the like 4 punches he landed every round because of how little Lentz actually did, ******* awful fight.


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## Inkdot (Jun 15, 2009)

osmium said:


> Shields was getting beaten up and outgrappled in the clinch though he wasn't holding on to Kampmann's legs pressing him against the cage for the entire fight like Lentz was doing in that fight or like what Rashad did to Rampage. Winner got cage cuddled for like four and a half minutes of every round. I think I might have felt Winner deserved the decision too for the like 4 punches he landed every round because of how little Lentz actually did, ******* awful fight.


I agree 100%! If they fixed the judging these fighters would soon need to adapt or become irrelevant and the sport would be more entertaining and grow faster. I'm starting to get serioesly pissed about this lay and pray, exploiting crappy judging criterias to win fights in a horribly boring fashon. It's not what fighting is about and its not fun to watch. I dont care if you grapple, strike, wrestle or play ping pong, just atleast show us fans some actual intent to beat the other guy up not just dry hump his legs or work positions for 15 min with a pitter patter strike thrown in every full moon.

Meanwhile real fighters are getting losses on there records and to me it really hurts to watch.

Shields was controlling Kampmann not to beat him up but to stop himself from getting beat up. No way did Kampmann loose. Only thing Shields did was to slow down Kampmanns offence.


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## StandThemUp (May 30, 2008)

I could read all the posts in this thread, so this may have been mentioned already. If so, this is just me reinforcing the thought.

But I don't think that anyone, no matter how dominant they win the fight should get a title shot in the UFC after only one fight. That is just not right on so many levels.

Everyone willingly admits the best of the best fight in the UFC. So you should have to prove yourself against a range of these guys before you are given a title shot.
To only have to fight one guy, barely win and look horrible doing it, does not a title shot get in my oppinion. 

SHields should have to work his way through the pact like everyone else has. And if he had to do that, maybe he looses along the way to a lucky punch, a bad decision or any one of the number of things that have caused the other guys to have to reset and start over.

Then, maybe while having to start over, he gets an injury and can't fight for year, comes back and needs a year or two to get back to form, etc. etc.

It's just not right when these guys, and we all know who they are, are granted these title shots without having to work the field like the other fighters in the division have had to do.

This means guys would be better off leaving the UFC and dominating some lesser secondary organization, then coming back and only have to win 1 fight to get a title shot, instead of staying in the UFC and fighting the best of the best and working your way to the top.

I think if you join the UFC, you should have to fight through the field, like guys that have been there. There is no legit reason I can think of that a guy should be allowed to bypass the best fighters in the world and be given a title shot above them, just because of something they did in a completely different organization.


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## StandThemUp (May 30, 2008)

Inkdot said:


> I agree 100%! If they fixed the judging these fighters would soon need to adapt or become irrelevant and the sport would be more entertaining and grow faster. I'm starting to get serioesly pissed about this lay and pray, exploiting crappy judging criterias to win fights in a horribly boring fashon. It's not what fighting is about and its not fun to watch. I dont care if you grapple, strike, wrestle or play ping pong, just atleast show us fans some actual intent to beat the other guy up not just dry hump his legs or work positions for 15 min with a pitter patter strike thrown in every full moon.
> 
> Meanwhile real fighters are getting losses on there records and to me it really hurts to watch.
> 
> Shields was controlling Kampmann not to beat him up but to stop himself from getting beat up. No way did Kampmann loose. Only thing Shields did was to slow down Kampmanns offence.



I agree 100%
This is supposed to be the Ultimate "Fighting" championship, not the:
Ultimate "impose your will" competition, or the
Ultimate "avoid a fight" competition, or the
Ultimate "You can't hit me" competition, or the
Ultimate "Catch my breath against the cage" competition.
etc. Etc. Etc.

Fighters should be awared for fighting and trying to fight, even if they had to do it from their back the whole time.


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## Inkdot (Jun 15, 2009)

StandThemUp said:


> But I don't think that anyone, no matter how dominant they win the fight should get a title shot in the UFC after only one fight. That is just not right on so many levels.


Well if Shields had beaten Kampmann decisevly I would agree with the title shot. The guy comes in to the UFC with some serious credentials after all. 

Oh well at least now I can honestly say that I look forward to a GSP fight because I think Shields style will force GSP to try some stand up, been a long time since we've seen that. This is all provided he can first beat Kos first though.


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## StandThemUp (May 30, 2008)

Inkdot said:


> Well if Shields had beaten Kampmann decisevly I would agree with the title shot.


I still wouldn't. I think a lot of guys loose their title shot because they had to work through the ranks of the UFC. And a lot can happen along the way. Newcomers, no matter what their credentials, should have to work through the ranks.

Case in point, when Silva went to 205, why didn't he just get to go straight to the title shot? He already had a belt for christs sake. If anyone should go straight to a title shot, it should be him. But even he, at least at 205, has to work through the ranks. If Silva isn't allowed to bypass everyone and get a free shot at the top, why should a newcomer be able to? No matter where they came from.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

I thought Shields looked horrible in this fight. I think he won it but has there ever been a less convincing win?


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Killstarz said:


> I thought Shields looked horrible in this fight. I think he won it but has there ever been a less convincing win?


love your new sig in respect to probably the most entertaining fighter diego sanchez and i still laugh at luke cummo every time


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

UFC_OWNS said:


> love your new sig in respect to probably the most entertaining fighter diego sanchez and i still laugh at luke cummo every time


I'm thinking about introducing a little ninja gif action on the cummo av. if i can be bothered 



Does anyone know if Shields got the title shot?


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Killstarz said:


> I'm thinking about introducing a little ninja gif action on the cummo av. if i can be bothered
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if Shields got the title shot?


yeah he got it, dana said in an interview with ariel hawirini


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

oh dear... he'll get smashed off GSP, assuming he beats Kos.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Killstarz said:


> oh dear... he'll get smashed off GSP, assuming he beats Kos.


yep i predict a KO in round 1 or 2 by GSP you heard it here first


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Spec0688 said:


> Yea I dont get why people keep saying all this stuff about weight cut, he isnt exactly a huge WW..


Really? Look at his staredown with Dan Henderson.



Ari said:


> . Kampmann could have EASILY beaten Sheilds, but he fought like an idiot. I wasn't sure exactly how to score the fight, but I got the credits for picking Sheilds


Nope. He didnt' let his hands go because that is when Jake shoots. Jake is hard to catch with strikes. Kampmann was only successful in the clinch. Bottem line Jake was completly gassed by round two because he depleted his body to make weight and he was still utilizing techniques than a guy with "solid and underrated wrestling, submissions and TDD" was competley unable to stop...

Imagine how that fight would have looked if Jake had a good cut. It wouldn't even be close.



Fieos said:


> He was lean at 185, he had to cut a lot of muscle. That is significant.


This^^

And for those saying that Martin Kampann won that fight. That is wishful thinking. Shields clearly won that fight.

And he won that fight while he was gassed. Cant wait to see him settle into 170.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

Man if Jake is getting the next shot he has got to lot of weight management to do in a very short time.
Cutting 20lbs in one day?? I'm surprised he made it out to the octagon let alone won the fight, that is a BRUTAL cut.
You could see the grappling ability of Shields in the fight but if he shows up in that condition against GSP he is gonna get murdered!


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