# Rashad vs. Lyoto confirmed for UFC 98



## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/ufc/article2311141.ece



> RASHAD EVANS admits he is wary of the threat Lyoto Machida poses ahead of their UFC 98 title fight.
> 
> *The light-heavyweight champion is set to defend his 205lbs strap against unbeaten Machida after the Brazilian was given the opportunity to step in for the injured Rampage Jackson.*
> 
> ...


next UFC LHW champion in my avatar


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

I wonder if Rashad will try and strike with Lyoto or go for a takedown. On the feet I have Lyoto taking this one, but Rashad can finish with GnP.


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## shatterproof (Jul 16, 2008)

wiiiicked. Lyoto deserves this. 'Page should rematch with Forrest next, then on to his title shot. Not that he doesn't deserve a shot already, but that would be a good rematch. At some point he and rashad have got to go now too.

Big cheers for the dragon. Can't freakin wait for this match. Rashad is the perfect opponent for an entertaining fight between these two. woowhoo.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

i don't think rashad is capable of taking Lyoto down frankly....if anything, I see Lyoto leg sweeping Rashad and getting on top of him.

Rashad doesn't really hang out in the pocket much...so i wonder what the standup will look like between these to. If I had to guess...it'll be alot of feeling out in round 1.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

This is going to be horrible. Not the fight I like the fight but this forum is going to be dreadful until for a long long time. Between this fight and Lesnar vs Mir the nuthuggers will be out for a long time.


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## MalkyBoy (Nov 14, 2007)

I like this fight. If Lyoto loses and that is a huge if, I wonder how crowded his bandwagon will be. I predict the day after this card there will be a dasiy chain of Machida love. 

Machida will cut Rashad down with leg kicks successfully counter most of his punches and get a 30-27 UD


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## pliff (Oct 5, 2006)

I really really like this fight.

As of now, I have Machida taking the belt away from Rashad but I still dont know why. This is a fight that needs much further analysis on my part.

Interesting bout to think about and break down, and an even better fight to watch live. 

Really cant wait for this one


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

MalkyBoy said:


> I like this fight. If Lyoto loses and that is a huge if, I wonder how crowded his bandwagon will be. I predict the day after this card there will be a dasiy chain of Machida love.
> 
> Machida will cut Rampage down with leg kicks successfully counter most of his punches and get a 30-27 UD


Title fights are 5 rounds, so 30-27 would be impossible, but yeah I can definitely see Lyoto winning every round.


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## Evil Ira (Feb 9, 2009)

right now theres alot of great matchups like this u can make in the ufc. and dana fuckin white always gives fans what they want.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

Wow, I am really into this fight. I see Rashad winning a decision via what will later be called "lay and pray".

I honestly think that this is the two best fighters in the division right now going head to head. Should be a fanastic match.


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## Evil Ira (Feb 9, 2009)

TheNegation said:


> Wow, I am really into this fight. I see Rashad winning a decision via what will later be called "lay and pray".
> 
> I honestly think that this is the two best fighters in the division right now going head to head. Should be a fanastic match.


what about rampage :dunno:


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## AceFranklin88 (Apr 21, 2007)

FINALLY. I'm not clinging to his nuts, but I'm actually warming up to Machida A LOT. I can see guys like Rashad and Rampage giving Machida some trouble, but I still see Lyoto beating everyone in the UFC's LHW division. I cannot wait for this match. 

Lyoto for UFC LHW Champ in 2009.


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## MalkyBoy (Nov 14, 2007)

Suvaco said:


> Title fights are 5 rounds, so 30-27 would be impossible, but yeah I can definitely see Lyoto winning every round.


oops:thumb02: yeah 50-45


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## georgie17891 (Dec 21, 2008)

glad because rampage needs time to rest


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## Drogo (Nov 19, 2006)

This is a much more appropriate match up than Jackson Evans and will be a more interesting fight than Jackson-Machida. I think Machida will beat Evans but he would destroy the Jackson we saw against Jardine. Evans was losing (or even at best) in the stand up against Liddell and Griffin and I think Machida is more dangerous standing than either of them so he has to win on the ground. I don't think he'll get Lyoto down enough to do that and I think Machida will pick him apart and TKO him in the 3rd or 4th.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Does a Rashad nut hugger dare enter a thread with tons of Machida nut huggers? He does.

Rashad and Machida is a dream match per se. 2 undefeated seemingly unstoppable forces collide. Rashad with his devastating KO power and wicked speed vs the Elusiveness and accurate shots of Lyoto Machida.

This fight is nearly impossible to call because of all the mysteries surrounding the two.

When will Rashad hit that breakthrough wall? It's insane to think that every fight he gets faster and better. From Bisping to Chuck Liddell, the 1 year where he spend training because of Chucks injury really made him a new fighter. You can't even compare the Bisping Rashad to the Chuck Rashad.

Machida, hard to get the timing down on this guy. He switches it up with techniques most people normally don't do. 1 thing I realized is that if he attacks the left side of you, say with a punch, he'll attack the left side again with a sweep or leg kick or etc. Most people attack left side to right side. The benefits of attacking left side to left side is its unpredictable and your body then becomes parallel, making it nearly impossible to be hit by anything other then a perfect hook. The downside of this is that attacking the left or right twice cripples your power, which is why Machida has very few KOs.

Machida has looked unstoppable, but his biggest win recently is against Tito. He crushed Tito, something Rashad couldn't do. But Rashad has improved soooo much since that fight that it's not relevant for arguments. This will be Machida's biggest fight to date. (bigger then Franklin and BJ, yes).

Can Rashad's speed and fight smarts handle the elusiveness of Machida. What gameplan can Greg Jackson come up with for him. And will Machida have the cardio to go all 5? That's a question I ask myself a lot, he has good cardio, but after his fight with Silva, he looked REALLY winded. Can he keep up with Rashad's pace?

Lol I think I should write a blog.


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## Evil Ira (Feb 9, 2009)

cant wait 2 see what this match does 2 the forum


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

i would say the tito fight is relevant b/c Tito didn't even come close to getting Lyoto down...but he got Rashad down a few times...

rashad was having problem hitting Forrest b/c of his lateral movement. And Lyoto's lateral movement is much better.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

Evil Ira said:


> what about rampage :dunno:


I think Rashad and Lyoto are better than Rampage right now. Not by much or anyhting, I am just mad impressed by Rashad lately.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> i would say the tito fight is relevant b/c Tito didn't even come close to getting Lyoto down...but he got Rashad down a few times...


Like I said though, the Rashad of nearly 2 years ago is no where near the Rashad of today. He had 1 year dedicated solely to training and he took full advantage. Making him the monster he is today.


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## HeavyRob (Nov 3, 2008)

man, I respect both fighters........ though I might be leaning towards Machida on this one


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> Like I said though, the Rashad of nearly 2 years ago is no where near the Rashad of today. He had 1 year dedicated solely to training and he took full advantage. Making him the monster he is today.


He still loses a lot of rounds though. Him getting outstruck by Forrest for 2 rounds can't fill you with confidence for a fight with Machida who has better technical striking and footwork than Forrest.

I'm not too sure of how much he's really improved TBH. Yeah he's obviously got a lot better but not on the level you're talking about, he's still the same fighter just with better boxing and he's shown a lot more power than I knew he had prior to the Chuck fight.


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## Evil Ira (Feb 9, 2009)

cant wait 2 see what this does 2 rashad's streak


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## NameThief (Dec 28, 2008)

Aaronyman said:


> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/ufc/article2311141.ece
> 
> 
> 
> next UFC LHW champion in my avatar


This sux.

Lyoto is as exciting as a toothless diabetic's diet.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> Like I said though, the Rashad of nearly 2 years ago is no where near the Rashad of today. He had 1 year dedicated solely to training and he took full advantage. Making him the monster he is today.


Rashad has improved his stand up I agree but nobody since the Tito fight has tried to out grapple Rashad and we don't know if Machida will do that. That is one of the things that surprised me most in the Machida/Tito fight is that Machida went for takedowns because I don't remember him going for any in any of his other fights.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

YES! There is justice in this world! 

I think Machida will surprise everyone by putting Rashad on his back and submitting him.


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## LCRaiders (Apr 7, 2008)

Rashad vs. Evans is going to be a great fight. Lyoto is going to take it to Rashad. I wonder if Rashad can finally give Machida his first loss.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

LCRaiders said:


> Rashad vs. Evans is going to be a great fight. Lyoto is going to take it to Rashad. *I wonder if Rashad can finally give Machida his first loss*.


Likewise for Machida.


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## NameThief (Dec 28, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> YES! There is justice in this world!
> 
> I think Machida will surprise everyone by putting Rashad on his back and submitting him.


Frankly, I think Machida's the best P4P fighter in the world...first him, then likel St Pierre and A. Silva -- they compete in leagues where talentless stiff clunks like T. Sylvia can never be champs. 

He just is a little too slow for me.

Though I am CERTAIN he would wipe his azz with EVEN Fedor at a weight disdvantage.

Machida's the best fighter in the world...easily. He just needs a little more entertainment to "spice up" his style.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

NameThief said:


> Frankly, I think Machida's the best P4P fighter in the world...first him, then likel St Pierre and A. Silva -- they compete in leagues where talentless stiff clunks like T. Sylvia can never be champs.
> 
> He just is a little too slow for me.
> 
> ...


Opinions are a beautiful thing. :thumb02:


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

Fedor>all said:


> Likewise for Machida.


Rashad should already have his first loss


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## omgrunaway (Mar 3, 2009)

A good friend of mine was co captains with rashad in JUCO, says he is one of the nicest guys ever.

Ill be rooting for evans.


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## Wise (Oct 8, 2006)

The Legend said:


> Rashad should already have his first loss


Your boy should learn to not finger bang the cage like its Jenna then.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

The Legend said:


> Rashad should already have his first loss


Haha, Tito is such a moron.. but he had the right idea in that fight.


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## Evil Ira (Feb 9, 2009)

somebodys gotta lose their winning streak


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## Walker (May 27, 2007)

Man it's weird to see Lyoto really getting his shot but I'm all kinds on conflicted now because I've actually become a fan of Rashad. Even though I'm uber-glad to see Machida get his shot I was actually hoping Rashad and Rampage would square off first if there wasn't the problem with the time issue for Jackson.

I think this is a sweet match-up and I'm super curious to see how Greg Jackson game plans for Machida. I really think this could be an absolutely amazing title fight.


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## MamaSdKnockUOut (Feb 23, 2009)

LCRaiders said:


> Rashad vs. Evans is going to be a great fight. Lyoto is going to take it to Rashad. I wonder if Rashad can finally give Machida his first loss.


I can't wait for the Lyoto vs. Machida fight.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

Quite possibly quote-of-the-year:


> “Whenever I got into a street fight I never talked — I just hit. I never liked to be in someone’s face that close just talking.”


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## mmamasta (Jan 10, 2008)

Alright, sorry guys, but I have to be THAT guy...

I have NEVER been LESS excited for a fight. 

Alright, before everyone neg's me, I did see Machida's last fight, and okay, he got ONE, but that doesn't change his style (which will be to sit and wait for that one, or try taking two or MAYBE three, and if he doesn't, he'll wait for it all night). 

Rashad, on the other hand, is just a cardio machine and makes people work the entire fight and most people can't handle it. Now you'll notice I didn't saying anything about him being a great fighter, he's an incredible athlete, but need to work on his stand-up BADLY (stop shoulder-rolling every time your opponent flinches and put your f'ing hands up).

I see this fight ending one of two ways, either the fans get lucky, and Machida lands that one shot early in the fight. OR we spend 25 minutes watching one of the most boring stand-up battles that we've ever witnessed. Either way, it is a main even I will not be paying for.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

Wise said:


> Your boy should learn to not finger bang the cage like its Jenna then.





Fedor>all said:


> Haha, Tito is such a moron.. but he had the right idea in that fight.


The thing that pisses me off most about that is I have seen people grab the cage a lot worse then what Tito did and they don't even get warned. Also when Tito got the point taken away he wasn't even grabbing the cage.


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## Danomac (Oct 15, 2006)

No one is gonna care if you keep with the stupid random capitalized words. It looks retarded. So does someone trying to be funny by using ridiculous analogies. That diabetic's diet thing was also retarded.

Machida is probably gonna take him down. Combo and then into a foot sweep. Side mount. Sub. Machida wins.

Yeah, imo, Rashad already lost. And to a guy his opponent took to school.


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## NameThief (Dec 28, 2008)

I don't particularly get excited at Lyoto's fights but I think Brazilians are THE BEST fighters in the world, period (it helps that Machida and Anderson Silva are close pals).

I'm currently dating a girl whose half-Japanese and half Brazillian (all-a-nese, she calls it), just like Machida, so I'm torn about this fight.

Machida bores me but my girlfriend and some of my Brazillian friends worship him and his pal Anderson Silva.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

mmamasta said:


> Rashad, on the other hand, *is just a cardio machine* and makes people work the entire fight and most people can't handle it.


What?

Can someone explain to me exactly how Rashad is a cardio machine? I see his conditioning as pretty suspect TBH. It's not bad or anything but I wouldn't say he has great cardio at all.


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## Sinister (Nov 19, 2007)

Days like this make you proud to be alive.


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## BhamKiD (Aug 20, 2008)

First off, let me say that I am in no way a Machida fan, but I am SOOO glad he is finally getting a title shot. In my opinion, Rampage was not deserving of a title shot yet. This is a tough fight to call...its a coin flip for me.


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## the ultimate (Mar 5, 2007)

I see Machida winning. 

I think Rashad can be out-struck which Machida will do with kicks, knees and punches. Rashad might become frustrated and start to throw big haymakers which could be a big mistake against the precision, speed and elusiveness (sounding like Goldie  ).

I'm also unsure if Rashad can take Machida down since Machida has great TDD and he might even sweep him. 

There is always the possibility of Rashad knocking someone out but I think Machida will win by Decision or late TKO.


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## MagiK11 (Dec 31, 2006)

Finally!!!!! I'm at work and raised my voice and half my team turned around wondering why I'm excited LOL

****, I wanted Lyoto to get this title shot so bad! THis fight should be great and I'd like to see Lyoto win this one but to be honest I don't know what's going to happen with Rashad's wrestling, power and speed. But Tito's wrestling didn't do anything for him against Lyoto.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

Sucks we wont be able to see the black on black crime as Rampage said, After that stairdown I really wanted to see it and was picking Rashad to take it. But against Lyoto I think Rashad has a smaller chance at winning, I really dont know what kind of gameplan he is going to bring in for the dragon, but he will have to be at his best. This could be a good fight, I dont know who to pick quite yet. But Someones 0 has got to go.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

Awesome can't wait for this. Rashad Evans will defend his belt.


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

this may be the fight ive been most exited for in A LOOOONG time... i think shamrock vs Cung Le was the last time i was this exited.


however i dont see this news up on any other sites... sherdog, mmaweekly etc :dunno:


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Thank Rob, it's about time.

Man, I'm soooo pumped for this fight. If I knew I would see this thread today, I would have put on something nicer.

I see Machida having advantages in most areas, that includes: striking, counter ability, clinch, wrestling(not saying Machida has better wrestling, I'm saying with Lyoto's movement and clinch ability, I can't see Rashad getting Lyoto down at any point in the fight).

The only thing I see Rashad doing well when against Machida is on the ground. Even then, I think Machida having the tools needed to control/submit/get the fight standing if he wants. He has good BJJ and sweeps.

Not taking anything away from Rashad, he's a good fighter himself and deserves to be where he is, however, I don't see him beating Machida at all.

I'm so excited that Machida is getting his shitle tot, I'm going to go party.


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## D.P. (Oct 8, 2008)

Norway1 said:


> this may be the fight ive been most exited for in A LOOOONG time... i think shamrock vs Cung Le was the last time i was this exited.
> 
> 
> *however i dont see this news up on any other sites... sherdog, mmaweekly etc* :dunno:


That's because we're awesome.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

http://www.aroundtheoctagon.com/?p=1220




> Rampage out-Machida vs. Evans at UFC 98
> 
> Earlier today ATO caught up with someone close to Rampage and asked him if Rampage accepted the fight with Evans. We were told “No Comment”.
> 
> ...


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## N1™ (Apr 8, 2007)

> “Whenever I got into a street fight I never talked — I just hit. *I never liked to be in someone’s face that close just talking*.”


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Very interested to see their game plan. Do not want to see a cat and mouse fight. Someone's undefeated record has got to give. If Lyoto loses the flip side is that it may create an opening for The Spider to enter.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

If Rashad somehow manages to knock out Machida, it'll be a huge victory for him, but Lyoto is my choice on this one.


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## S_515_S (Jun 1, 2008)

*Finnaly Machida Gets It!!!!!!! After 6-0 In The Ufc*

Machida Deserved This Before Rampage Got Injured, Even Before Ufc 96. It's Kinda Sad That Rampage Got Hurt, Because After The "black On Black Crime" Confrontation I Was Curious About The Rampage/evans Confrontation (of Course Curioius About The Ass Whooping Evans Was Getting From Rampage)

Breaking Down This Fight, Both Are Great Standup FighterS But Machida Is Way More Versatile And More Elusive. I Don't Think Evans Could Take Machida Down, In Fact Machida's Biggest Threat Is Evans's Knockout Power, Which Is Not Really A Problem With Machida Because Of Machida's Elusivness. On The Ground (if Evans Could Get Him To The Ground) Machida Got The Advantage Because Of His Outstanding Bjj, Evans Got Great Wrestling Also. But Overall This Will Be A Standup Battle That Machida Will Win, Definiteley I See Machida Winning The Title.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Although I definitely think Lyoto has this the only reason why I wouldn't entirely rule out Evans is cuz of Greg Jackson. This guy comes up with ridiculous master plans. He made a blue collar fighter (Jardine) go to decision with Liddell and Rampage. Of course it's Jardine's work ethic, but you can't discount the strategy that he implements for them especially with Evans vs Liddell.


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## Combat Soul (Oct 2, 2008)

Oh yeah as Buffer (Michael) would say...

Someone's 0 has got to go!

It is the right fight, lets just hope it is not a cagey fight ending in a boring SD.

I think it will be finished, Machida by submission. Machida won't be forthcoming to allow Evans to land those counter strike bombs. I think leg sweep after a clinch, and a submission from the top.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

How reliable is this information? 

Mmamania, mmajunkie, mmaweekly and sherdog (the sites I go to) didn't write a word about it.


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

OMG OMG OMG OMG......i am so happy right now. I wonder what the odds are for this fight, because i cant see the bookies putting Machida as the favourite, so gonna lay down some serious dosh factor on him


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## Hammer_Lock (Dec 8, 2008)

bbjd7 said:


> This is going to be horrible. Not the fight I like the fight but this forum is going to be dreadful until for a long long time. Between this fight and Lesnar vs Mir the nuthuggers will be out for a long time.


Yes, sir!

Now is the time of truth, WAR MACHIDA!


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

No_Mercy said:


> Although I definitely think Lyoto has this the only reason why I wouldn't entirely rule out Evans is cuz of Greg Jackson. This guy comes up with ridiculous master plans. He made a blue collar fighter (Jardine) go to decision with Liddell and Rampage. Of course it's Jardine's work ethic, but you can't discount the strategy that he implements for them especially with Evans vs Liddell.


valid point, but lyoto is alot 3 dimensional than liddell or rampage tho and thus ALOT harder to train for.


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Aaronyman said:


> valid point, but lyoto is alot 3 dimensional than liddell or rampage tho and thus ALOT harder to train for.


Yes, he is a conundrum indeed. His movement ebbs and flows like water. Who knows maybe the plan will be for Evans to stand in the pocket/center thus forcing Lyoto to initiate the attack. 

If Lyoto wins I think it's going to be a long reign.


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## AceFranklin88 (Apr 21, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> valid point, but lyoto is alot 3 dimensional than liddell or rampage tho and thus ALOT harder to train for.


Agreed. How the hell can you train for Machida? Who can they bring in to simulate him? I can't think of a damn person out there quite like Lyoto. :confused02:


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## vandalian (Oct 14, 2006)

They should have just made this fight in the first place, then given Rampage a shot against the winner. Would've avoided a lot of confusion.
Rashad has become a really, really good fighter, but I gotta call this one for Lyoto, maybe even by late submission if Evans gasses.


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> This is going to be horrible. Not the fight I like the fight but this forum is going to be dreadful until for a long long time. Between this fight and Lesnar vs Mir the nuthuggers will be out for a long time.


HAHAHhahahha


I thought the same thing when I saw this thread :thumb02:


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## Keeran (Nov 22, 2008)

all my money will be on lyoto in the vbookie. I can not see how ryoto can lose he is just too well rounded and when you are training partners with A.silva and even he thinks you are god like you must be special. However if anyone in the LHW division can it would be EVANS as he himself has an awkward style. Its a win win situation if ryoto wins let him fight rampage or the winner of shogun/liddel or even babalu if the UFC can get their act together and sign him. But if lyoto loses hw will face the loser of liddel/chuck or ace of against griffen or jardine all these are great fights. can't wait for this


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## Mr UFC Guy (Mar 8, 2009)

UFC is still waiting on Rampage to confirmed that he can't go so until then this is not all true just a Back up Plan....


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## towwffc (Jan 1, 2008)

If this is true I am so pumped for this fight. As much as I love Rampage I see Lyoto as a much larger threat to Rashad. I see Lyoto becoming the new champ!!!


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## randyspankstito (Sep 25, 2006)

The only problem is that I was really looking forward to seeing me some "black on black crime"


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Think I'm going to bet on this fight. Any good bookie recommendations.


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## JT42 (Dec 31, 2006)

Any place other than The Sun confirm this is signed? I dont want to get my panties in a wad until its for SURE


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## Negative1 (Feb 4, 2007)

I cannot wait to read what Damone has to say. 

Who will he choose and why? There should be a poll for strickly that. :laugh:

I saaaaaay Lyoto by submission.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

JT42 said:


> Any place other than The Sun confirm this is signed? I dont want to get my panties in a wad until its for SURE


That's the thing. I'm still very skeptical towards this info. The Sun's basing its article on what Rashad stated today (sherdog, mmamania articles) as to why he _thinks_ he'll get Machida at UFC 98 (mostly because Page was making excuses etc) and they're saying "Machida/Evans is set for UFC 98". 

The other source Aaronyman provided is basing their info on what the Sun said.. and on a "no comment" from "someone close to Rampage"...

Not saying it won't happen, just taking this info with a grain of salt as no one else confirmed it yet :dunno:
(mmamania, mmajunkie, mmaweekly, sherdog, fiveouncesofpain etc)


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## Meshuggeth (May 26, 2008)

Yes!!!!!!!!


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## DragonStriker (Feb 11, 2009)

Its better for Jackson to face the winner he needs the time off.


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## ZeroPRIDE (Apr 12, 2006)

JT42 said:


> Any place other than The Sun confirm this is signed? I dont want to get my panties in a wad until its for SURE


same here. ill wait till Dana confirms


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## Robb2140 (Oct 21, 2006)

I just got home from work and saw this thread, All I can say is......

*Finally!!!!!*

Lyoto definetly deserves this Title Shot just like Rashad deserved his. These are the only unbeaten fighters at LHW with 10+ fights so it definetly makes sense.

Both of these guys have looked unbeatable lately so it should be fun. Rashad has 1 punch KO power but Lyoto is by far the more technicly sound fighter.

I predict that Lyoto will frusterate Rashad standing until Evans starts to go for TD's. Lyoto should be able to sweep Rashad and win the fight on the ground. Unless Rashad KO's him, I can't see Lyoto losing. I'm not saying Machida will finish him, but he'll most likely dominate the fight and win a UD.


Yes I am a Machida nutthugger, I have been one since before he was in the UFC and win or lose I will still be on his bandwagon.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Really interesting circumstance here. Either we have a new LHW champion and Rashad gets a blemish on his record, or Rashad knocks Lyoto back down the heap with his first loss. Taking away the fact that its a title fight, and the records of the fighters, I can see this fight being a real stylistic bore. I predict either Rashad not being able to get Lyoto down, or Lyoto not being able to get Rashad down. Aside from that, they're going to "fake each other out" for almost half an hour on the feet. 

This forum is going to be horrible, I just want this fight over with.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

Biowza said:


> Really interesting circumstance here. Either we have a new LHW champion and *Rashad gets a blemish on his record*, or Rashad knocks Lyoto back down the heap with his first loss. Taking away the fact that its a title fight, and the records of the fighters, I can see this fight being a real stylistic bore. I predict either Rashad not being able to get Lyoto down, or Lyoto not being able to get Rashad down. Aside from that, they're going to "fake each other out" for almost half an hour on the feet.
> 
> This forum is going to be horrible, I just want this fight over with.


Rashad already has a blemish on his record.


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## ZeroPRIDE (Apr 12, 2006)

jeez give a rest Biowza. ive read the same shit 3 times today.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

The Legend said:


> Rashad already has a blemish on his record.


It's a draw. Not a loss. Tell your boy to not cheat, and these things won't happen.



ZeroPRIDE said:


> jeez give a rest Biowza. ive read the same shit 3 times today.


And how many times have I read "FINALLY" "AT LAST" "ABOUT TIME" and "LYOTO IS GOING TO DOMINATE AND BE LHW CHAMP!" Must be at least 20 times in this thread alone.

This is the point of a forum, you want to only hear with people who agree with you then go to church.


----------



## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Biowza said:


> Really interesting circumstance here. Either we have a new LHW champion and Rashad gets a blemish on his record, or Rashad knocks Lyoto back down the heap with his first loss. Taking away the fact that its a title fight, and the records of the fighters, I can see this fight being a real stylistic bore. I predict either Rashad not being able to get Lyoto down, or Lyoto not being able to get Rashad down. Aside from that, they're going to "fake each other out" for almost half an hour on the feet.
> 
> This forum is going to be horrible, I just want this fight over with.


I can't believe I'm on the same page as you.

Not about the fight I think it's actually going to be kinda fun in the later rounds but the forum will be hell until about June with talk about this fight.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

Biowza said:


> It's a draw. Not a loss. Tell your boy to not cheat, and these things won't happen.


I can't tell Tito not to cheat because I don't know him but a draw is a blemish.


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## w0rM (Dec 29, 2008)

Some of the analysis in this thread is way off the mark. lol.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Just got home from work, reading this thread. And I must ask people.

Do people seriously think that trainers aren't aware of what Machida is doing? Almost every trainer is aware of what he's doing. I already said it! It could be explained better. But I explained what he's doing, why it really doesn't work for finishing people, and what you have to do to stop it. I'm an average Joe who trains a little bit and I analyze fights. For example. Here's why Thiago Silva's idea wasn't all that dumb.

His strategy was to rush him and constantly put pressure on him. It could work. It's unlikely, but here's how. Machida likes to trip, and avoid. Constant rushing forces him to avoid rather then focus on trips. While avoiding the only thing you can do that's worth anything is jab and back pedal or stop moving altogether and do whatever. Machida knows that if he stops, he'll have a split second to react or else he's getting clinched and hit. This however sets Silva up for a trip which lead to him getting KO'd.

But, what if Machida keep back pedaling and jabbing? Thiago can take a jab, and with all of those jabs, he's leaving himself open for looping overhands. What went wrong with this strategy? Thiago just wasn't fast enough. Had he been.. well faster then Machida, this strategy could have won him the match. But Machida being so much faster, his strategy got thrown out the window when he was able to stop and have more then a split second to react.

I can go on all day about strategies for Lyoto. But I really don't need to. Rashad and Greg Jackson have a strategy that's 20 times better then anything I could possibly think of.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

Daaang! I'm just going to lurk and watch all Lyoto's fans mark out over this historic event. Rampage gets his title shot after his injuries heal up anyway, so it's all good. 

I feel and rebound positive kharma all around...


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## Mr UFC Guy (Mar 8, 2009)

Xerxes said:


> How reliable is this information?
> 
> Mmamania, mmajunkie, mmaweekly and sherdog (the sites I go to) didn't write a word about it.


That's my point so this thread is pointless until UFC announces Rampage can't go Dana already told page on his blog to take a week or two and let him know....


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## Screwaside (Feb 11, 2008)

Suvaco said:


> I wonder if Rashad will try and strike with Lyoto or go for a takedown. On the feet I have Lyoto taking this one, but Rashad can finish with GnP.



If Machida was able to deny Tito I say he does ok with Rashad.


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## cdnbaron (Jan 17, 2007)

This is the type of fight where people are just jumping to conclusions so quickly that I need to bust out that mat from Office Space.

I can't pick someone to win this right now. I really need to go back and watch a bunch of film on both of these guys to really break it down. Right now, I could legitimately make a couple of arguments for how each guy could win this, but that's premature.

I don't think that it's unfair to use the Tito fights to break this one down, since it's their only common opponent, and the fights were relatively close in time. Maybe Rashad has progressed as much as Spoken thinks (I tend to disagree), but to compare things like speed which will obviously be a huge factor in this fight, the Tito fight should be a good indicator. Now, off to watch some fights.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Haha, again you predict shit correctly Aaron.


Seriously guys no fail, 2 days ago I was talking to him on MSN and he' slike "I think 'Page is going to back out" and wouldnt you know it? I hate you so much right now hahahah


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

TraMaI said:


> Haha, again you predict shit correctly Aaron.
> 
> 
> Seriously guys no fail, 2 days ago I was talking to him on MSN and he' slike "I think 'Page is going to back out" and wouldnt you know it? I hate you so much right now hahahah


haha well rampage has little to gain and much to lose by taking the fight at ufc 98...it just makes more sense for him to wait


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

TraMaI said:


> Haha, again you predict shit correctly Aaron.
> 
> Seriously guys no fail, 2 days ago I was talking to him on MSN and he' slike "I think 'Page is going to back out" and wouldnt you know it? I hate you so much right now hahahah


Well, a lot of that has to do with common sense really. One event in between his last fight? Really? That just seems like a rush job to me. Guys want months to prepare for a title shot, so as bright as Aaron is, he's not quite a prophet. :laugh:


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Damn, somebody is losing their perfect record here. 

I've actually betted against both of these guys a couple of times last year. 

I'm a bit conflicted between the two right now. :confused02:


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## diablo5597 (Nov 12, 2008)

It's interesting because you have 2 fighter who don't give a damn if the fans boo them for dancing around and not fighting. One reason Liddell lost is because the fans were booing so he engaged Rashad a lot more than he should have. I expect both of them to try to be the more elusive fighter standing. IMO Lyoto wins the stand up. Rashad will probably feel out Lyoto for a while then go for a take down as soon as the opportunity presents itself. He's to smart to become predictable and shoot for a take down every 2 seconds. I think Lyoto will be able to keep it standing and win by decision.


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## TERMINATOR (Jul 6, 2008)

Its gonna be a war, hope Rashad pulls it off though.


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## The Dark Knight (Jun 29, 2008)

Damn..just when I was thinking that maybe Rampage will be an easier match up for Rashad than Lyoto will I get this piece of shit news...damn. Lyoto is winding me up. Big time. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried. I'm really worried. Maybe even extremely worried. But I ain't counting my boy Rashad out. He CAN win but he is going to have to use EVERY fibre, every muscle, every ounce of his intelligence and everything in his heart to defeat Machida. He'll have to go beyond his peak to beat Machida. And I want him to win. I need him to win. I'll be devastated if he loses to Machida. 

It's going to match of the year calibre, though. That i'm certain of. It's a much more interesting match up than Jackson vs Evans. Truth be told though, Machida deserves it and I didn't like the way that Dana promised him a title shot only to take it away. That was silly. But Machida is scaring me right now and I need Rashad to realise he is a big underdog in this (yet again) and pull out a magic trick. He needs to win this. And once he does, he'll be considered the best in the world, imo.

If Rashad wins, i'll buy every single one of my mates a beer. Seriously.


----------



## Baby Jay D. (Apr 25, 2008)

I'll wait for real verification before I get excited about Machida becoming champ. 

The Sun recycling and twisted other media interviews does not count as confirmation to me, awful rag of a paper. I need a reliable website to confirm this.


----------



## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

The Dark Knight said:


> Damn..just when I was thinking that maybe Rampage will be an easier match up for Rashad than Lyoto will I get this piece of shit news...damn. Lyoto is winding me up. Big time. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried. I'm really worried. Maybe even extremely worried. But I ain't counting my boy Rashad out. He CAN win but he is going to have to use EVERY fibre, every muscle, every ounce of his intelligence and everything in his heart to defeat Machida. He'll have to go beyond his peak to beat Machida. And I want him to win. I need him to win. I'll be devastated if he loses to Machida.
> 
> It's going to match of the year calibre, though. That i'm certain of. It's a much more interesting match up than Jackson vs Evans. Truth be told though, Machida deserves it and I didn't like the way that Dana promised him a title shot only to take it away. That was silly. But Machida is scaring me right now and I need Rashad to realise he is a big underdog in this (yet again) and pull out a magic trick. He needs to win this. And once he does, he'll be considered the best in the world, imo.
> 
> If Rashad wins, i'll buy every single one of my mates a beer. Seriously.


I think if Rashad ever fought CB Dolloway, The Dark Knight might actually go crazy and cut his own toes off or something.


----------



## jasonc84 (Nov 9, 2007)

Amazing news for Machida, he deserves this shot!!

I see him winning a UD many will call it a boring fight but i think Machida will fight a smart fight and take the decision by peppering Rashad with strikes for all 5 rounds. I don't think Rashad has good enough takedowns to get Machida down but i think Machida could take Rashad down and he has shown he is dangerous from the top. This is going to be an awesome fight!!!


----------



## The Dark Knight (Jun 29, 2008)

Bazza89 said:


> I think if Rashad ever fought CB Dolloway, The Dark Knight might actually go crazy and cut his own toes off or something.


Lol, I would cry yes


----------



## kamikaze145 (Oct 3, 2006)

Awesome, this is the fight I want to see happen anyway. Machida deserves it. Not saying Page did not but Page needs more time to prep anyway, this time though it will be for Machida and not Rashad.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

The Dark Knight said:


> Damn..just when I was thinking that maybe Rampage will be an easier match up for Rashad than Lyoto will I get this piece of shit news...damn. Lyoto is winding me up. Big time. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried. I'm really worried. Maybe even extremely worried. But I ain't counting my boy Rashad out. He CAN win but he is going to have to use EVERY fibre, every muscle, every ounce of his intelligence and everything in his heart to defeat Machida. He'll have to go beyond his peak to beat Machida. And I want him to win. I need him to win. I'll be devastated if he loses to Machida.
> 
> It's going to match of the year calibre, though. That i'm certain of. It's a much more interesting match up than Jackson vs Evans. Truth be told though, Machida deserves it and I didn't like the way that Dana promised him a title shot only to take it away. That was silly. But Machida is scaring me right now and I need Rashad to realise he is a big underdog in this (yet again) and pull out a magic trick. He needs to win this. And once he does, he'll be considered the best in the world, imo.
> 
> If Rashad wins, i'll buy every single one of my mates a beer. Seriously.


If I was in London, you'd owe me a beer. I'm not worried at all man. 5 rounds, Machida has questionable Cardio. He's not KOing Rashad. For those who say "He can KO Rashad," Yes it is possible, but extremely unlikely. He won't dare Kick Rashad more then a few times because Rashad and his speed will catch it. And he can't knock someone out if he attacks the same side twice in a flurry, hell he couldn't even knock me out doing it.

The only way Machida can KO Rashad is if it's early in the fight, and they brawl and he catches him. Rashad is going to be wary of trips, and his ground game is tight enough that he won't get KO'd for keeping his head on the ground.

Rashad Evans ALSO doesn't mind if he loses rounds. He aims to finish fights, not just merely win them. With his intelligence and 25 minutes and Greg Jackson in his corner, he can get Machida's timing, and flatline him.

I think this is the first fight with Rashad me and Damone will disagree on. I think he thinks that Machida will get him.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

jasonc84 said:


> Amazing news for Machida, he deserves this shot!!
> 
> I see him winning a UD many will call it a boring fight but i think Machida will fight a smart fight and take the decision by peppering Rashad with strikes for all 5 rounds. I don't think Rashad has good enough takedowns to get Machida down but i think Machida could take Rashad down and he has shown he is dangerous from the top. This is going to be an awesome fight!!!


Sorry for the double but I have to do it.

Watch the Tito fight and the Lambert fight and tell me Rashad doesn't have good takedowns.


----------



## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> If I was in London, you'd owe me a beer. I'm not worried at all man. 5 rounds, Machida has questionable Cardio. He's not KOing Rashad. For those who say "He can KO Rashad," Yes it is possible, but extremely unlikely. He won't dare Kick Rashad more then a few times because Rashad and his speed will catch it. And he can't knock someone out if he attacks the same side twice in a flurry, hell he couldn't even knock me out doing it.
> 
> The only way Machida can KO Rashad is if it's early in the fight, and they brawl and he catches him. Rashad is going to be wary of trips, and his ground game is tight enough that he won't get KO'd for keeping his head on the ground.
> 
> ...


I'd say there's more of a question over Rashad's cardio than there is Machida's as Lyoto's never had an problem conditioning wise in the UFC whereas Rashad has.

It's not as if Rashad doesn't give a crap about losing rounds, he's not letting the other fighter win them just cos he's gonna KO him later on. I think Machid's gonna put Rashad on his back in this fight that's where I think Evans will be most in trouble.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Bazza89 said:


> I'd say there's more of a question over Rashad's cardio than there is Machida's as Lyoto's never had an problem conditioning wise in the UFC whereas Rashad has.
> 
> It's not as if Rashad doesn't give a crap about losing rounds, he's not letting the other fighter win them just cos he's gonna KO him later on. I think Machid's gonna put Rashad on his back in this fight that's where I think Evans will be most in trouble.


If Machida does get Rashad on his back, then yes I will start to worry. I'd hope for the round to end or Rashad to stand back up or something. Rashad can't hope to sweep Machida from his back, it's just not happening.

But I think a main part of his strategy is to avoid any ground game Machida tries to offer before offering his own. Meaning stuff his takedowns and toss in some of your own takedowns.

BTW, I mention his cardio based off their last fights. Rashad looked very fresh in the 3rd round against Forrest, but Machida was seriously winded after he KO'd Silva in the first round.


----------



## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> If Machida does get Rashad on his back, then yes I will start to worry. I'd hope for the round to end or Rashad to stand back up or something. Rashad can't hope to sweep Machida from his back, it's just not happening.


I wouldn't go as far as to say it's just not happening, obviously it'd be tough to sweep Rashad but I wouldn't be surprised if Machida managed it. 

I think Machida's gonna take him down though TBH. I think he's gonna frustrate Rashad standing and then either trip him or take him down.



Spoken812 said:


> But I think a main part of his strategy is to avoid any ground game Machida tries to offer before offering his own. Meaning stuff his takedowns and toss in some of your own takedowns.


Yeah that's how I see Rashad fighting aswell.



Spoken812 said:


> BTW, I mention his cardio based off their last fights. Rashad looked very fresh in the 3rd round against Forrest, but Machida was seriously winded after he KO'd Silva in the first round.


It's always a bad idea to judge cardio based on a first round KO IMO. There's a big adrenaline jump after something like that, not to mention Machida had been running around and had jumped on the side of the octagon.

Machida's been to several decisions and has never really looked to be running out of gas whereas Rashad's cardio has looked pretty bad on several occasions. I think it looked a lot better in the Forrest fight cos I've never seen him come out for the third round looking fresh before but I still think there's question marks over it.

Really we don't know if either of them can go 5 hard rounds cos we haven't seen them do it before so it's hard to give the edge in cardio to either of them. If I had to though I'd give it to Machida cos Rashad's had poor conditioning actually affect his peformance in the past whereas Machida's only looked winded after a fight.


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Lyoto doesn't need to sweep Rashad to put him on his back. Watch their fights with Tito, Rashad struggled to get Tito down for 2 rounds and finally got Tito down in the third. Machida took Tito down with ease as soon as he got double underhooks, ended up in side control and started throwing elbows.

I'm not saying Rashad hasn't improved since then, but there's no proof in his recent fights because everyone else has decided to stand with him. I think Machida will take advantage of Rashad's over-rated wrestling skills and expose him on the ground like Forrest should have tried. :dunno:


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

oh god... first ive heard of this...

the nuts... will be hugged...

imo I see lyoto taking this, but I hope hope hope rashad knocks him out cause i hate me some dragon :thumb02:


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## JT42 (Dec 31, 2006)

Sports Illustrated said:


> A championship battle of undefeated light heavyweights is slated to headline UFC 98, *SI.com has confirmed. Rashad Evans (13-0-1) will defend his UFC belt May 23 against Lyoto Machida (14-0).*
> 
> Evans-Machida is the third planned main event for the MGM Grand Garden Arena-hosted card in Las Vegas. UFC heavyweight titleholders Frank Mir and Brock Lesnar were originally scheduled to make the title whole, but Mir bowed out late last week after injuring his knee while training.
> 
> ...


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/mma/03/11/evans.machida/index.html?eref=T1

For those looking for more confirmation than who Rashad thought his opponent would be. I am still waiting for UFC.com to be updated but this is looking very promising!!

Ladies and Gentleman, your future LHW Champion of the World after the FOTY...LYOTO FREAKIN MACHIDA :cool04:


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Rashad is in for a long night.

Going to get his title stripped away, as well as his first loss.

I can't wait.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

IM THRILLED..........but the news from the death of Mask kinda shit on this day.......:thumb02:


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## Javelin (Dec 28, 2007)

I can't decide my pick right now cause this is such a close m/u, I like both guys especially Machida but I'm kinda gunning for Rashad just cause everyone hates him, he deserves more respect.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> Just got home from work, reading this thread. And I must ask people.
> 
> Do people seriously think that trainers aren't aware of what Machida is doing? Almost every trainer is aware of what he's doing. I already said it! It could be explained better. But I explained what he's doing, why it really doesn't work for finishing people, and what you have to do to stop it. I'm an average Joe who trains a little bit and I analyze fights. For example. Here's why Thiago Silva's idea wasn't all that dumb.
> 
> ...


You know nothing about shotokan...clearly. Those trips are very basic karate moves that use a person's weight against them. The back pedaling is smart because your opponent doesn't know when you will stop and he has shown that he can do that effectively. he is a master at implementing karate into MMA and Rashad will have a tough time overcoming that.


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## vexred (Jun 9, 2008)

it really is official now!!

http://uk.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=news.detail&gid=18601


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

I'm happy that Lyoto is getting a title shot, but I really wanted to see Rampage vs Rashad.


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## vexred (Jun 9, 2008)

wukkadb said:


> I'm happy that Lyoto is getting a title shot, but I really wanted to see Rampage vs Rashad.


agreed, I was looking forward to seeing that fight too but Rampage is due some rest/family time. Must be hard being away from home for such long periods of time.


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## cezwan (Dec 7, 2007)

now THIS is what i have been waiting for..

this is going to be a tough fight and not as easy as everyone thinks its going to be for machida..

Rashad is fast.. REAL fast, and i dont think Machida has fought someone like Rashad yet..


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> You know nothing about shotokan...clearly. Those trips are very basic karate moves that use a person's weight against them. The back pedaling is smart because your opponent doesn't know when you will stop and he has shown that he can do that effectively. he is a master at implementing karate into MMA and Rashad will have a tough time overcoming that.


I already said I was an average joe who didn't know much. But the Greg Jackson camp is who I'm really talking about. They can figure out a counter for his elusive style.

The backpedaling is smart if your opponent chases you. If not.. what's the point?

And you act like Karate is some secret scroll that isn't being taught to anyone.. a lot of people in MMA today probably started off with Karate as a kid. I'm sure they'll have no problem finding someone who's a master at Kare-a-tay and can find a counter for his style.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> I already said I was an average joe who didn't know much. But the Greg Jackson camp is who I'm really talking about. They can figure out a counter for his elusive style.
> 
> The backpedaling is smart if your opponent chases you. If not.. what's the point?
> 
> And you act like Karate is some secret scroll that isn't being taught to anyone.. a lot of people in MMA today probably started off with Karate as a kid. I'm sure they'll have no problem finding someone who's a master at Kare-a-tay and can find a counter for his style.


That is just it...you can't find a master of Shotokan as easily as you think and I have no idea where Machida ranks in the world of Shotokan...but I doubt he would be considered a master. And if you do...see if he has any sumo training to go with it. I don't think that combo comes around too often in MMA circles. I like the subtle dismissal of everyone else that has ever fought Machida and their ability to gameplan against him though. Jackson is no better at coming up with a gameplan then many other camps. 

You put a little too much stock into Greg Jackson's ability to come up with an effective gameplan as well. Rashad has been the better and more well-rounded fighter in almost all of his fights. The only one that comes to mind that he wasn't was against Forrest and well, he wasn't exactly winning until the big shot landed. I also vividly remember him having problems with much worse fighters. People talk about Rashad being this great fighter, but it just isn't true. He has almost no submission skills and relies too heavily on the one big shot. 

He is going up against a guy now that has pretty much not even been hit in his last two fights and never really hurt in any fight in the UFC.

And you say Greg Jackson has a great gameplan in mind and everything will be fine. I am just not easily convinced and am pretty much calling bullshit on that.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> That is just it...you can't find a master of Shotokan as easily as you think and I have no idea where Machida ranks in the world of Shotokan...but I doubt he would be considered a master. And if you do...see if he has any sumo training to go with it. I don't think that combo comes around too often in MMA circles. I like the subtle dismissal of everyone else that has ever fought Machida and their ability to gameplan against him though. Jackson is no better at coming up with a gameplan then many other camps.
> 
> You put a little too much stock into Greg Jackson's ability to come up with an effective gameplan as well. Rashad has been the better and more well-rounded fighter in almost all of his fights. The only one that comes to mind that he wasn't was against Forrest and well, he wasn't exactly winning until the big shot landed. I also vividly remember him having problems with much worse fighters. *People talk about Rashad being this great fighter, but it just isn't true.* He has almost no submission skills and relies too heavily on the one big shot.
> 
> ...


Oh, after reading this... I have nothing else to say. You're obviously biased against Rashad so nothing I say will have any affect on the conversation.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> Oh, after reading this... I have nothing else to say. You're obviously biased against Rashad so nothing I say will have any affect on the conversation.


Why because I don't think he is a great fighter? Tell me what makes him great then. 

I said Chuck wasn't a great fighter too and it looks like I was right about that, because when he actually fought someone that was moderately talented...he lost. 

Rashad has good wrestling (predictable but good) with no sub ability or passing ability. He has powerful and quick strikes, but his boxing isn't that great. He is well-rounded, but not great anywhere. 

He is just not great and hasn't shown to be...so tell me how he is.

BTW I have him ranked as the top LHW in my rankings because he is the most accomplished fighter at his weight currently in a class of inconsistent fighters (other then Machida of course). personally I feel that Machida is a better fighter, but I can't rank him higher based on my personal thoughts...I am obligated to rank based on accomplishments.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Rashad's top game/GnP is great IMO. Don't know how he is off his back though, we haven't seen him in that situation in a long time.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> Rashad's top game/GnP is great IMO. Don't know how he is off his back though, we haven't seen him in that situation in a long time.


In what fight did he unveil this "great" top game/GNP?


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

I guessed you missed his last fight lol.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> I guessed you missed his last fight lol.


ZSince when is standing above an opponent on the ground considered top game? Whenever he was in Forrest's guard he was ineffective and couldn't pass what was a wide open guard.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> ZSince when is standing above an opponent on the ground considered top game? Whenever he was in Forrest's guard he was ineffective and couldn't pass what was a wide open guard.


passing isn't always the best option when in the guard tho....

had he tried to pass, he could have gotten swept or submitted in the process....sometimes a sweaty fighter is better to hang out in the guard and drop bombs....ask bj....the most dmging shows gsp landed where from the guard


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> ZSince when is standing above an opponent on the ground considered top game? Whenever he was in Forrest's guard he was ineffective and couldn't pass what was a wide open guard.


Watch his fight with Lambert, then come back and continue this conversation.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

He kept Forrest on the ground, didn't let him stand back up, defended his sub attempts, postured up to inflict maximum damage, GnP'd his face and finished him after a minute or so. Why would he need to pass his guard when he can finish it from full guard, and Forrest is no slouch off his back. He showed very good top game/GnP skills in the past but what he showed against Forrest was great top skills, IMO.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> Watch his fight with Lambert, then come back and continue this conversation.


Don't need to...watch his fight with Hoger...someone with negligible BJJ skills almost subbed him. Lambert has lost 4 of his last 5 and McDonald schooled him on the ground. His grappling is terrible. I could watch a 30 minute instructional and sub him. 



Aaronyman said:


> passing isn't always the best option when in the guard tho....
> 
> had he tried to pass, he could have gotten swept or submitted in the process....sometimes a sweaty fighter is better to hang out in the guard and drop bombs....ask bj....the most dmging shows gsp landed where from the guard


I agree with that, but Rashad is not as good as GSP...GSPO has shown those skills way more then just once. 



Xerxes said:


> He kept Forrest on the ground, didn't let him stand back up, defended his sub attempts, postured up to inflict maximum damage, GnP'd his face and finished him after a minute or so. Why would he need to pass his guard when he can finish it from full guard, and Forrest is no slouch off his back. He showed very good top game/GnP skills in the past but what he showed against Forrest was great top skills, IMO.


Forrest got rocked on the initial exchange on the way to the ground. Everything after that wwould not have been nearly as effective without that initial shot (or 3 hammer fist as he caught forrest and pounded on him as they both went down)


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> Don't need to...watch his fight with Hoger...someone with negligible BJJ skills almost subbed him. Lambert has lost 4 of his last 5 and McDonald schooled him on the ground. His grappling is terrible. I could watch a 30 minute instructional and sub him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, we post an achievement of Rashad, you either discredit or say a time when he didn't do so well in the said category.. and that's it? I guess I said it right the last time. No need in saying anything else to you.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

ZZ, I think you haven't seen the fight in a long time. They were on the ground for almost 2 minutes. It's not like Rashad rocked him standing and finished it there a few seconds later. Forrest tried to get back up a couple of times, was defending Rashad's GnP, threw a couple of sub attempts etc. What rocked Forrest was a short right hand after a good minute and a half or so and next thing I know is a few seconds later the ref had to step in to stop the fight.


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## Ashilles (Aug 19, 2008)

i would rep you again but it wont let me.

i call that zz tiger has a bias towards rashad

i now have a bias toward zz tiger..........i still cant bring myself to neg rep him


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> So, we post an achievement of Rashad, you either discredit or say a time when he didn't do so well in the said category.. and that's it? I guess I said it right the last time. No need in saying anything else to you.


No...I just don't see a single achievement (or two since that is what is posted) as qualifications for greatness. He is the top fighter in a division currently lacking greatness. He is not great.



Xerxes said:


> ZZ, I think you haven't seen the fight in a long time. They were on the ground for almost 2 minutes. It's not like Rashad rocked him standing and finished it there a few seconds later. Forrest tried to get back up a couple of times, was defending Rashad's GnP, threw a couple of sub attempts etc. What rocked Forrest was a short right hand after a good minute and a half or so and next thing I know is a few seconds later the ref had to step in to stop the fight.


I have seen and remember the fight well. Forrest throws kick (rather lazily I might add because that is how his kicks were being thrown that night...that or he would lose his footing if they had power behind them). Rashad catches said kick and presses forward causing Forrest to lose his balance...on the way down Rashad maintains his footing and lands some good shots, but the real damage is done when he lands big hammer fists from the side before the fall/takedown was over. Forrest struggles to find his opponent and eveutally gets him in his guard. Tries (half-heartedly) to sub Rashad and fails on about 2 attempts. Rashad lays on top of him searching for his moments...backs out and stands above him and does more damage...falls back into guard and waits...lands a big elbow and backs out and stands above him and gets a TKO. 

That looks more like Forrest sucking to me. But to each his own..if that = greatness then GSP is, to steal a character from The Big Lebowski, THE JESUS.

I think you guys are being a little quick to proclaim greatness. Maybe I am being too hard on him, but he looked average in almost all of his fights. He had a big headkick KO against Salmon (whoopdee do), a huge overhand against Chuck (getting better), and TKO against Forrest. Other then that he has unimpressive (among other things) victories against Bisping, Hoger, and Bonnar. Not to mention the draw (loss) against Tito. A fighter that Machida absolutely dominated for three rounds.



Ashilles said:


> i would rep you again but it wont let me.
> 
> i call that zz tiger has a bias towards rashad
> 
> i now have a bias toward zz tiger..........i still cant bring myself to neg rep him


I think you mean bias against, but if you want to neg me for talking about my opinion go ahead, just know that you would be acting like an idiot. Try discussing your points instead of just repping someone.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> No...I just don't see a single achievement (or two since that is what is posted) as qualifications for greatness. He is the top fighter in a division currently lacking greatness. He is not great.
> 
> 
> I have seen and remember the fight well. Forrest throws kick (rather lazily I might add because that is how his kicks were being thrown that night...that or he would lose his footing if they had power behind them). Rashad catches said kick and presses forward causing Forrest to lose his balance...on the way down Rashad maintains his footing and lands some good shots, but the real damage is done when he lands big hammer fists from the side before the fall/takedown was over. Forrest struggles to find his opponent and eveutally gets him in his guard. Tries (half-heartedly) to sub Rashad and fails on about 2 attempts. Rashad lays on top of him searching for his moments...backs out and stands above him and does more damage...falls back into guard and waits...lands a big elbow and backs out and stands above him and gets a TKO.
> ...


Apply the logic of discrediting to Machida. His best win is Rich Franklin. BJ Penn and a rapidly declining Tito Ortiz.. does it really count?


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> Apply the logic of discrediting to Machida. His best win is Rich Franklin. BJ Penn and a rapidly declining Tito Ortiz.. does it really count?


The big difference here is that I never said Machida was great.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> The big difference here is that I never said Machida was great.


But what has Machida done to give him any chance against the speed and power and patience of Rashad?


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> I have seen and remember the fight well. Forrest throws kick (rather lazily I might add because that is how his kicks were being thrown that night...that or he would lose his footing if they had power behind them). Rashad catches said kick and presses forward causing Forrest to lose his balance...on the way down Rashad maintains his footing and *lands some good shots*, but the real damage is done when *he lands big hammer fists from the side before the fall/takedown was over*. Forrest struggles to find his opponent and eveutally gets him in his guard. Tries (half-heartedly) to *sub Rashad and fails on about 2 attempts*. Rashad lays on top of him searching for his moments...backs out and *stands above him* and *does more damage*...falls back into guard and waits...*lands a big elbow* and *backs out* and *stands above him and gets a TKO*.


Lol that sounds like a very good top game to me, and that's coming from you :thumb02:

Seriously though, these hammer fists and elbows obviously did some damage but what really had Forrest rocked and nearly done was that short right hand he ate about 5/10 sec before the ref stepped in. 

(BTW, in your breakdown you're overlooking the fact that Forrest tried to get back up and Rashad was able to control him from the top) 



> That looks more like Forrest sucking to me. But to each his own..if that = greatness then GSP is, to steal a character from The Big Lebowski, THE JESUS.


GSP's top game is not great, it's amazing. Amazing > Great 



> *I think you guys are being a little quick to proclaim greatness.* Maybe I am being too hard on him, but he looked average in almost all of his fights.


I've noticed the "you guys" but just for the record, I've never claimed Rashad was great. IMO he's a solid, well rounded fighter who's improved a lot in the last year or so. But you said that Rashad was "well rounded but not great anywhere" to which I replied his top game/GnP is great IMO. 

Oh and IMO his ability to capitalize on his opponents mistakes is great too. 



> He had a big headkick KO against Salmon (whoopdee do), a huge overhand against Chuck (getting better), and TKO against Forrest. Other then that he has unimpressive (among other things) victories against Bisping, Hoger, and Bonnar.


This is a mistake many people discrediting Rashad make. They're analyzing the Rashad of 08/09 by talking about the Rashad of 05-07. This is totally irrelevant because fighters improve, and Rashad's been improving tremendously. 



> Not to mention the draw *(loss)* against Tito. A fighter that Machida absolutely dominated for three rounds.


How is it a loss? Tito cheated after being warned multiple times and got rightfully deducted a point. Had Tito not cheated, Rashad would have gotten the TD and God knows what would have happened from there. Either Rashad would have won the 2nd round 10-9 (a W instead of a D on his record) or would have possibly TKO'd Tito :dunno: 



> Not to mention the draw (loss) against Tito. *A fighter that Machida absolutely dominated for three rounds.*


No offense but so what? Styles make fight and that doesn't mean anything IMO. 

Machida could also be seen as the fighter who would have gotten triangle chocked by frikkin Tito Ortiz (underrated GG but still..), had their bodies not been so sweaty at the end of the 3rd round 

My point is everybody can be made look bad or good given ones' feelings towards a fighter. I just think you're not being fair to Rashad and not giving him the credit he should get :dunno:

For the record I like Machida (in my top 10 fighters) and I think he's most likely going to win... even though I'll be pulling for Rashad lol.


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## Pound&Mound (Dec 10, 2007)

lol tiger, you're too funny.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

For the record I say he's a great fighter, but I liked him since TUF so.. it's only natural.

Really, I find a lot of fighters great. I think that just because one great fighter loses to another great fighter, that said fighter is no longer great.

To say Chuck Liddell was never great is absolutely stupid. Sure, he may have been 1D, no defense whatsoever, so on and so forth, but the man obtained and stayed Champ in the UFC for a very long time. Just because someone has a bad technical style doesn't mean that they're not great.

Honestly.. if you held the title or fought for the title, in my book, your a great fighter. You earned your right to be there in blood.


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## Scorch (Apr 2, 2007)

I cant wait! Its going to be nice seeing Dana wrap that belt around Machida's waist! :thumb02:


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## Iowaiceman (Mar 12, 2009)

I was starting to think Machida would be 25-0 before they finally caved and gave him a title shot, can't wait to see how he does in his first five round fight. I expect him to win a dominate five round decision.


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## prodrush (Mar 1, 2009)

looking forward to this one, two guys who have great strategys when entering the octagon.

if anyone can crack machida , rashad may be the one! i also think rampage could have beaten machida.


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## The Finisher (Mar 23, 2008)

That's the best thing for Rampage.

Both are bad match-ups for him. Let him rest up and only have to beat one.


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## MalkyBoy (Nov 14, 2007)

The Finisher said:


> That's the best thing for Rampage.
> 
> Both are bad match-ups for him. Let him rest up and only have to beat one.


Actually i think he would struggle to beat either of them, he will have a slightly easier time with Rashad but I reckon Rashad would have taken a razor close decision.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Its about time Lyoto got his shot. I'm really excited for this fight and I think he can win it.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> But what has Machida done to give him any chance against the speed and power and patience of Rashad?


Completely dismantled an opponent that Rashad struggled with (and would have lost to had it not been for a penalty). Not been hit in almost 3 fights in the UFC. Proven that no one can figure out his style.....should I go on?



Xerxes said:


> Lol that sounds like a very good top game to me, and that's coming from you :thumb02:
> 
> Seriously though, these hammer fists and elbows obviously did some damage but what really had Forrest rocked and nearly done was that short right hand he ate about 5/10 sec before the ref stepped in.
> 
> ...


You actually did call his top game great...and that is what I was saying it wasn't...I said it was good to very good. 

We are just arguing semantics now and it really just comes down to our opinions of the definition of the word great.

I am being fair, but I don't consider greatness a word that should be thrown around lightly. We don't have great fighters strolling around the UFC in every division. IMO there are 3 fighters currently fighting in MMA that can be considered great and those are GSP, A. Silva, and Fedor. The others have great accomplishments or great aspects of their game, but none are great fighters. Silva looks like no one can stop him standing, Fedor looks like no one can stop him anywhere, and GSP looks like no one can stop whatever he decides to do...outright dominance is one place to look that may help one diagnose greatness. 

Rashad has none of that. Early on he took advantage of a scoring system that favored wrestlers and learned from his mistakes and become a fighter that can finish fights. Now he is still constantly improving, but he isn't great at anything IMO. 

I have openly admitted that I don't like the guy, but that doesn't mean I let that effect my evaluation of his fighting ability. Hell, I ranked him #1 in his weight class even though I think there are better fighters. What else do I have to do? I am not just going to call him great because he is champ. He got the belt from one of the least great fighters to hold it in a long time. 

MMA has changed 10-fold in the last few years and greatness can not achieved as easily. Chuck was great for his time, but not a great fighter altogether. Same can be said about Hughes. 



Pound&Mound said:


> lol tiger, you're too funny.


not sure what you mean here.:confused02:




Spoken812 said:


> For the record I say he's a great fighter, but I liked him since TUF so.. it's only natural.
> 
> Really, I find a lot of fighters great. I think that just because one great fighter loses to another great fighter, that said fighter is no longer great.
> 
> ...


So... by your definition that makes Patrick Cote, Dave Menne, Thales Leites, Matt Serra, Travis Lutter (if he would have made weight), Harold Howard, Dave Beneteau, Gerard Gordeau, Chris Brennan, Carlos Newton, Elvis Sinosic, Gil Castillo, Dennis Hallman, Vladimir Matyshenko, Hayato Sakurai, Evan Tanner, Gan McGee, David Terrell....etc. That is all I can think of but I think you get what I am trying to say.

Just because someone puts on a string of victories doesn't make them great or because the division is so depleted because of a dominant champ they get a title shot doesn't make them great. Greatness in one particular aspect of the fight game does. 

Chuck put together a very deceiving streak of victories against really average fighters with the exception of Tito. I don't think anyone that is one dimensional like Chuck was can be considered great in a sport that is made up of several dimensions. Just a personal opinion. Does that mean his achievements weren't great, absolutely not, but let's not get caught up in achievements.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Again, I've never claimed he was a great fighter and saying a fighter's [insert skill] or [insert ability] is great doesn't make him a great one overall. Maynard has great wrestling, Lesnar great power, Alves great leg kicks and Maia amazing BJJ, does it make them great fighters? 

You said that he wasn't great anywhere and I called you out on it giving you 2 aspects of his game where I think he's great at. To me amazing > great > very good > good > average > mediocre > bad. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics because you seem to consider "great" as being the highest level someone can be at something and I don't. 

If your [insert skill] is one of the best, or the best in your division, I'll call it "great". If it's one of the best or the best in all MMA, I'll call it "amazing". For example Lyoto has amazing timing, calling it only "great" would be an understatement IMO. 

ATM I can't think of anybody who has better GnP skills and ability to capitalize on their opponent's mistake than Rashad at LHW, that's why I'm calling him great at these two aspects. It's just hard for me to believe that the you're undefeated champion in a such a deep division without being great anywhere :dunno:


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## Baby Jay D. (Apr 25, 2008)

Machida is gonna have the belt for a long time. It'll be good fun to see rashad have his first loss. Can't wait


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> ATM I can't think of anybody who has better GnP skills and ability to capitalize on their opponent's mistake than Rashad at LHW, that's why I'm calling him great at these two aspects. It's just hard for me to believe that the you're undefeated champion in a such a deep division without being great anywhere :dunno:


Okay fair enough about the semantics part of it, but just because you THINK Rashad is the best at LHW at one particular thing doesn't make him great. It simply makes him the best at that weight.

That is like saying just because my argument is the best in this thread it is a great argument. (Which it obviously is, but others may not think that) :thumb02:

Greatness gets thrown around too much...just because there are other adjectives that rank higher then great on your scale doesn't mean great should be devalued and certainly shouldn't qualify someone as great because their GNP is according to you the best in the division.

And I should remind you of Tito Ortiz, a fighter that has shown his GNP to be much more effective over a much longer time period then Rashad has even known what GNP was.

Sorry I disappeared last night BTW...got sleepy.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> Okay fair enough about the semantics part of it, but *just because you THINK Rashad is the best at LHW at one particular thing doesn't make him great.* It simply makes him the best at that weight.


Are you implying I said that Rashad was great because his GnP skills and some of his other abilities were IMO great? because that's NOT what I said (for the 3rd time lol). 

If you weren't then yeah, I think if you're the best or one of the best at one particular thing in a _stacked division with so much talent_ such as the UFC LHW division, then *your particular skill/ability* (not necessarily you as a fighter) could be qualified as great. 



> That is like saying just because my argument is the best in this thread it is a great argument. (Which it obviously is, but others may not think that) :thumb02:


Well, applying my logic, if your argument was the best in a thread with bunch of very smart arguments, then yeah it could be considered as great one lol (but it wouldn't mean you're a great poster :thumb02.



> Greatness gets thrown around too much...just because there are other adjectives that rank higher then great on your scale doesn't mean great should be devalued and *certainly shouldn't qualify someone as great because their GNP is according to you the best in the division.*


Nobody said anything like that on this thread, where are you getting that from 



> And I should remind you of Tito Ortiz, a fighter that has shown his GNP to be much more effective over a much longer time period then Rashad has even known what GNP was.


I didn't know Tito was THAT old. 



> Sorry I disappeared last night BTW...got sleepy.


No worries, sleeping is great :thumb02:


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## brave112 (Nov 18, 2007)

İ think rashad in trouble.Look at Machida's wikipedia introduction:Lyoto holds an undefeated record that includes victories over former UFC light heavyweight champion Tito Ortiz, former UFC middleweight champion Rich Franklin, and current UFC lightweight champion B.J. Penn. He is currently ranked as the #2 and #4 light heavyweight fighter in the world by MMAWeekly[2] and Sherdog[3] respectively.

Machida fights out of Black House with such fighters as UFC middleweight champion Anderson Silva, former UFC light heavyweight champion Vitor Belfort, and former UFC interim heavyweight champion Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira.


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## MalkyBoy (Nov 14, 2007)

brave112 said:


> İ think rashad in trouble.Look at Machida's wikipedia introduction:Lyoto holds an undefeated record that includes victories over former UFC light heavyweight champion Tito Ortiz, former UFC middleweight champion Rich Franklin, and current UFC lightweight champion B.J. Penn. He is currently ranked as the #2 and #4 light heavyweight fighter in the world by MMAWeekly[2] and Sherdog[3] respectively.
> 
> Machida fights out of Black House with such fighters as UFC middleweight champion Anderson Silva, former UFC light heavyweight champion Vitor Belfort, and former UFC interim heavyweight champion Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira.



Indeed he is in trouble, Machida will pick him apart but I do not think he will finish him.


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## _LB_ (Jan 20, 2008)

I've been a fan of both of these guys. Since they have been in the UFC. Can't wait for this one. I'd rather see Michida kick Quintons ass first. But this is better in a way. It's 55/45 for michida for me. To close for me to call.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> Are you implying I said that Rashad was great because his GnP skills and some of his other abilities were IMO great? because that's NOT what I said (for the 3rd time lol).
> 
> If you weren't then yeah, I think if you're the best or one of the best at one particular thing in a _stacked division with so much talent_ such as the UFC LHW division, then *your particular skill/ability* (not necessarily you as a fighter) could be qualified as great.


Even if you are one of the few that employs that particular tactic? I disagree that Rashad is even the best GNP guy at LHW...Coleman and Tito have both proven to be better in more examples. And neither have that many more fights. 





> Well, applying my logic, if your argument was the best in a thread with bunch of very smart arguments, then yeah it could be considered as great one lol (but it wouldn't mean you're a great poster :thumb02.


 touché




> Nobody said anything like that on this thread, where are you getting that from


Your post right before this one...


you said:


> ATM I can't think of anybody who has better* GnP skills* and ability to capitalize on their opponent's mistake than Rashad at LHW, that's why I'm calling him *great * at these two aspects.


Also, I never implied or meant to imply that you said Rashad was a great fighter. But you have on several occasions called his GNP great based on his defeat of Forrest and maybe Lambert. Outside of that he hasn't even been impressive in that area, much less great.

I would also rank Arona, Babalu, maybe Hendo, Rampage, and in a couple more fights Matt Hammill. Okay that last one was just to be a dick, but you get my point.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

brave112 said:


> İ think rashad in trouble.Look at Machida's wikipedia introduction:Lyoto holds an undefeated record that includes victories over former UFC light heavyweight champion Tito Ortiz, former UFC middleweight champion Rich Franklin, and current UFC lightweight champion B.J. Penn. He is currently ranked as the #2 and #4 light heavyweight fighter in the world by MMAWeekly[2] and Sherdog[3] respectively.
> 
> Machida fights out of Black House with such fighters as UFC middleweight champion Anderson Silva, former UFC light heavyweight champion Vitor Belfort, and former UFC interim heavyweight champion Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira.


Not trying to pick on you or anything, but do you think Rashad is in trouble based only on Machida's wiki page? I mean, do you have any thoughts on the fight style wise or have you watched these guys fight before?

Did you have to wiki Machida to know his record or ability?

If this was a sarcastic post, forgive me.


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## MLS (Jul 18, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> Greatness gets thrown around too much.


Hell yeah it does.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

MLS said:


> Hell yeah it does.


I was specifically referring to the amount of times Tito was thrown around by Machida in their fight...hahaha. :thumb02:

Seriously though...about time someone sees what I am trying to say. Other then you Baby Jay D.


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## brave112 (Nov 18, 2007)

do you have any thoughts on the fight style wise or have you watched these guys fight before?

Of course,if you look at Evans' previous bouts and Machida's previous bouts you can see similarities in their evasiveness and ability to capitalize on mistakes.I would have to say that Machida is far more elusive and more skilled fighter and Rashad is quicker and stronger fighter.In conslucion i think Evans is a great athlete and great fighter but i think
Machida is another level.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> Even if you are one of the few that employs that particular tactic? I disagree that Rashad is even the best GNP guy at LHW...Coleman and Tito have both proven to be better in more examples. And neither have that many more fights.


Are you serious, Tito and Coleman?? You're aware that I was talking about the current UFC LHW division right? At least say Rampage so we could have something to debate over. lol



> Your post right before this one...


Haha, I love how you highlighted this one word in my sentence to make me say what I've never said. This is what I've said:


> ATM I can't think of anybody who has better GnP skills and ability to capitalize on their opponent's mistake than Rashad at LHW, that's why I'm calling him *great at these two aspects*.






> Also, I never implied or meant to imply that you said Rashad was a great fighter.


You clearly did in your previous post. 



> But you have on several occasions called his GNP great based on his defeat of Forrest and maybe Lambert. Outside of that he hasn't even been impressive in that area, much less great.


Again, that was a reply to what you said about him: "he's well rounded, but isn't great anywhere". I gave you 2 aspects where I think he is great and I could throw a 3rd one: his hands speed. 

My point is every dominant fighter in their weight class is great at something. Saying an undefeated champion at the UFC LHW weight class isn't great anywhere is an oxymoron and it's wrong, IMO. 



> I would also rank Arona, Babalu, maybe Hendo, Rampage, and in a couple more fights Matt Hammill. Okay that last one was just to be a dick, but you get my point.


Arona and Babalu aren't in the UFC, Hendo's GnP is mediocre (understatement) and I find Page's GnP good but overrated.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> Are you serious, Tito and Coleman?? You're aware that I was talking about the current UFC LHW division right? At least say Rampage so we could have something to debate over. lol


Yeah dead serious...both have proven to be more effective at that very aspect of the game in many more instances then just the two that Rashad has.




> Haha, I love how you highlighted this one word in my sentence to make me say what I've never said. This is what I've said:


 Again...I have never said that you said Rashad was a great fighter....get off that already...I simply disagreed with your assesment of him being great at GNP.







> You clearly did in your previous post.


 I actually didn't ever say it. You may have thought I was saying that, but I was always speaking in regards to his GNP (since you called that great at least).





> Again, that was a reply to what you said about him: "he's well rounded, but isn't great anywhere". I gave you 2 aspects where I think he is great and I could throw a 3rd one: his hands speed.


 I agree that his hand speed is great...especially since he fights at LHW. But my response was basically calling your logic faulty.



> My point is every dominant fighter in their weight class is great at something. Saying an undefeated champion at the UFC LHW weight class isn't great anywhere is an oxymoron and it's wrong, IMO.


 No its not [an oxymoron]. Your point is taken into consideration and has been since you made it. I just disagree with it because Rashad isn't great in any of the big 3 categories...wrestling, BJJ, or striking. He is certainly good when you compile all those things. And again by your logic I guess there are tons of fighters that are great everywhere. 

The UFC LHW division is not as deep as it appeared to be when Pride and the UFC merged. I think people should start noticing that. 




> Arona and Babalu aren't in the UFC, Hendo's GnP is mediocre (understatement) and I find Page's GnP good but overrated


Well, Rampage has unveiled his "overrated" GNP way more times then Rashad has.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> Again...I have never said that you said Rashad was a great fighter....get off that already...I simply disagreed with your assesment of him being great at GNP.
> 
> I actually didn't ever say it. You may have thought I was saying that, but I was always speaking in regards to his GNP (since you called that great at least).


On the _same_ post you said...



> Okay fair enough about the semantics part of it, *but just because you THINK Rashad is the best at LHW at one particular thing doesn't make him great.* It simply makes him the best at that weight.


and...



> Greatness gets thrown around too much...just because there are other adjectives that rank higher then great on your scale doesn't mean great should be devalued *and certainly shouldn't qualify someone as great because their GNP is according to you the best in the division.*


Nobody said anything like that here so why making those arguments?



> *I agree that his hand speed is great*...especially since he fights at LHW. But my response was basically calling your logic faulty.


Thanks for proving me right. /debate lol



> No its not [an oxymoron]. Your point is taken into consideration and has been since you made it. I just disagree with it *because Rashad isn't great in any of the big 3 categories...wrestling, BJJ, or striking.*


What?? Now you're talking about the 3 big aspects of the game??? We clearly weren't talking about the 3 big aspects of MMA and if we were you should have said it as soon as I joined the debate talking about Rashad's "top game/GnP", not now :dunno:

Following your logic even Fedor isn't great anywhere, so if Rashad isn't then it's no big deal I guess lol



> He is certainly good when you compile all those things. And again by your logic I guess there are tons of fighters that are great *everywhere*.


Not everywhere but somewhere. Huge difference. 



> The UFC LHW division is not as deep as it appeared to be when Pride and the UFC merged. I think people should start noticing that.


True but it's still stacked IMO. The main difference is that most of the marquee names didn't do so well and are on their way down. But it full of talent and fighters on their way up and remains the division where no mistake is permitted as one punch can change the whole fight. 



> Well, Rampage has unveiled his "overrated" GNP way more times then Rashad has.


When was the last time Rampage finished anybody with his GnP (aka being effective with it)? Chuck doesn't count because he got half KO'd standing before being finished with 2 shots on the ground.


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## duncanjr (Dec 12, 2008)

man ....i dont like machida but i hope he beats rashad ....the showboating is lame and id like to see him humbled ....then rampage kos machida and half this forum makes excuses fer em till 2015 ...lol . this is a good fight , but i gotta say i really wanted rampage vs rashad much more .:thumb02:


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> On the _same_ post you said...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You must have forgot about your post saying that he was great at something because it was the best in the current UFC LHW division.




> Thanks for proving me right. /debate lol


I didn't prove you right, I just agreed that he has great handspeed. Anyone that thinks otherwise would need to show me some serious evidence. 




> What?? Now you're talking about the 3 big aspects of the game??? We clearly weren't talking about the 3 big aspects of MMA and if we were you should have said it as soon as I joined the debate talking about Rashad's "top game/GnP", not now :dunno:


I was always talking about his grappling being less then great (which is one of the big 3) then you came along and limited it to GNP...buit I still don't think that is great.


> Following your logic even Fedor isn't great anywhere, so if Rashad isn't then it's no big deal I guess lol


Au contraire, that would make him great everywhere but probably standing (though that could be debated). Fedor's GNP >> GSP's.




> Not everywhere but somewhere. Huge difference.


 I meant everywhere in regards to organizations.




> True but it's still stacked IMO. The main difference is that most of the marquee names didn't do so well and are on their way down. But it full of talent and fighters on their way up and remains the division where no mistake is permitted as one punch can change the whole fight.


Any division has that aspect of it...that is a little unfair. I think the LHW division is honestly one of the most shallow there is. 




> When was the last time Rampage finished anybody with his GnP (aka being effective with it)? Chuck doesn't count because he got half KO'd standing before being finished with 2 shots on the ground.


I don't know when the last time was, but he did a pretty good job throughout most of his career. I don't really think his is better at this poitn then Rashad's nor do I think Rampage's is great, but he has a much more extensive list of examples then Rashad does.

Flashes of great are not worthy of being considered great.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

After getting home from work. I must say, great debate.

But Xerxes obviously won.. no point in continuing ZZ, He pretty much got you to completely change up your argument, as well as call Rashad great at something. While.. you haven't convinced him of a thing.

So Xerxes, you can stop. It's over, game over man. Game over.


----------



## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> You must have forgot about your post saying that he was great at something because it was the best in the current UFC LHW division.


Comparing it to the other fighters in the same weight division is a good barometer IMO, how else do you suggest we could accurately assess the fighters skills? And as I said if it (the skill/ability) is the best or one of the best in a _stacked_ division, I have no problem calling it "great".



> I didn't prove you right, I just agreed that he has great handspeed. Anyone that thinks otherwise would need to show me some serious evidence.


You did because you just agreed he's great somewhere when you were claiming the total opposite earlier. 



> *I was always talking about his grappling being less then great (which is one of the big 3) then you came along and limited it to GNP*...but I still don't think that is great.


I really thought you were talking about particular aspects of the game as I brought up a couple of them where IMO Rashad was great at and you continued debating with me like you where defending your original point. 

If you told me you were talking about the "big 3" in the first place, I'd have agreed with you in my second post directed to you. So yeah I agree, Rashad isn't great at grappling, striking or wrestling. But so are Fedor and 99% of MMA fighters so no big of a deal really. :dunno:



> Au contraire, that would make him great everywhere but probably standing (though that could be debated). Fedor's GNP >> GSP's.


Sorry I don't get that part of your post. I agree with the GnP thing but what does it have to do with our discussion?



> I meant everywhere in regards to organizations.


If this is what you meant then you're overlooking the "stacked division" aspect in my logic.



> Any division has that aspect of it...that is a little unfair. *I think the LHW division is honestly one of the most shallow there is.*


Well, I disagree. I find the top 10-15 UFC LHW fighters more well-rounded/talented than the top 10-15 UFC MW and HW fighters. 



> I don't know when the last time was, but he did a pretty good job throughout most of his career. I don't really think his is better at this poitn then Rashad's nor do I think Rampage's is great, but he has a much more extensive list of examples then Rashad does.


It was against Yokoi, 3 and a half years ago. Before that it was against Chuck, 6 and a half years ago.. 

BTW I should remind you that Rampage had Forrest badly rocked with that uppercut in the 1st round but Forrest still managed to pull a tight guard and get back up to his feet a few seconds later. Something he failed to do against Rashad. 



> Flashes of great are not worthy of being considered great.


That's a nice quote but I think you're putting the word "great" on a pedestal. 

Personally I use it when I feel a fighter's skill is above "very good" and below "amazing", as simple as that. :dunno:



Spoken812 said:


> After getting home from work. I must say, great debate.
> 
> But Xerxes obviously won.. no point in continuing ZZ, He pretty much got you to completely change up your argument, as well as call Rashad great at something. While.. you haven't convinced him of a thing.
> 
> So Xerxes, you can stop. It's over, game over man. Game over.


Haha thanks man but I don't see debating as a win/lose thing. We're just exchanging ideas and POVs and to be fair to ZZ he does make some _great_ points (emphasis on great :thumb02.


----------



## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Spoken812 said:


> After getting home from work. I must say, great debate.
> 
> But Xerxes obviously won.. no point in continuing ZZ, He pretty much got you to completely change up your argument, as well as call Rashad great at something. While.. you haven't convinced him of a thing.
> 
> So Xerxes, you can stop. It's over, game over man. Game over.


? huh ?


----------



## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> After getting home from work. I must say, great debate.
> 
> But Xerxes obviously won.. no point in continuing ZZ, He pretty much got you to completely change up your argument, as well as call Rashad great at something. While.. you haven't convinced him of a thing.
> 
> So Xerxes, you can stop. It's over, game over man. Game over.


What an excellent contribution to a thought-provoking debate. :sarcastic12:


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Aaronyman said:


> ? huh ?


Shhhhh, I'm trying to end the e-debate. Shhhhh.

Although it's a good debate. It's more of a logic debate and not really a debate on the fight. Pretty much ZZtiger thinks Rashad is like.. average or good at best. It's pretty dumb to say IMO.

But anyways. I was reading, and ZZtiger said what Xerxes wanted him to say "Rashad has great X" so I figured, all of this bickering can stop :dunno:


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

spoken, i cant believe you think that Rashad could be crowned (even one of) the greatest LHW's of all time if he beats Machida.

The term 'greatest' goes to the fighters who not only made their way to the title, but dominated during it. Matt Hughes, Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva, Anderson Silva. Those are the greatest.

As great as someone like GSP is or BJ Penn is, they haven't defended their titles enough to be touted as the greatest (although im sure GSP will be soon), but Rashad Evans...no chance at all, he is years away from being considered one of the 'greatest' LHW's


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Suizida said:


> spoken, i cant believe you think that Rashad could be crowned (even one of) the greatest LHW's of all time if he beats Machida.
> 
> The term 'greatest' goes to the fighters who not only made their way to the title, but dominated during it. Matt Hughes, Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva, Anderson Silva. Those are the greatest.
> 
> As great as someone like GSP is or BJ Penn is, they haven't defended their titles enough to be touted as the greatest (although im sure GSP will be soon), but Rashad Evans...no chance at all, he is years away from being considered one of the 'greatest' LHW's


Oh dude, I said "on his way" to being the greatest LHW. Not will be. If I did, that was a typo bro.

But, yeah, if he beats Machida, and does it convincingly, I don't see anyone else in the division beating him. And he can truly reign as the king 205er for years assuming it happens like that. Also coupled with him never losing, I'm just saying he has a great setup for becoming the greatest LHW in the world.

EDIT: Wait a minute... look at your avatar. LOL


----------



## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

Spoken812 said:


> Oh dude, I said "on his way" to being the greatest LHW. Not will be. If I did, that was a typo bro.
> 
> But, yeah, if he beats Machida, and does it convincingly, I don't see anyone else in the division beating him. And he can truly reign as the king 205er for years assuming it happens like that. Also coupled with him never losing, I'm just saying he has a great setup for becoming the greatest LHW in the world.
> 
> EDIT: Wait a minute... look at your avatar. LOL


Are you doubting the greatness of 'the project'. Then we have a serious problem, Wes Sims is the best p4p fighter ever bar none.


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## NameThief (Dec 28, 2008)

Suizida said:


> The term 'greatest' goes to the fighters who not only made their way to the title, but dominated during it. Matt Hughes, Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva, Anderson Silva. Those are the greatest.


Anderson Silva and Matt Hughes for sure, perhaps Wanderlei too but Chuck has always been a bit "iffy" to me.


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## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

NameThief said:


> Anderson Silva and Matt Hughes for sure, perhaps Wanderlei too but Chuck has always been a bit "iffy" to me.


Yeah, KO's of Randy (twice), Tito (twice), Babalu (twice), Horn, Randleman, Mezger and Overeem not to mention wins over Wanderlei, Vitor and Monson and a two year stint as champ where he looked unstoppable definitely seems "iffy" to me.


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## NameThief (Dec 28, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> Lyoto doesn't need to sweep Rashad to put him on his back. Watch their fights with Tito, Rashad struggled to get Tito down for 2 rounds and finally got Tito down in the third. Machida took Tito down with ease as soon as he got double underhooks, ended up in side control and started throwing elbows.
> 
> I'm not saying Rashad hasn't improved since then, but there's no proof in his recent fights because everyone else has decided to stand with him. I think Machida will take advantage of Rashad's over-rated wrestling skills and expose him on the ground like Forrest should have tried. :dunno:


Is there a single black fighter you don't think is over rated at all?

Perhaps I'm seeing too much, but that seems a predictable theme in you.


----------



## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

NameThief said:


> Is there a single black fighter you don't think is over rated at all?
> 
> Perhaps I'm seeing too much, but that seems a predictable theme in you.


Yeah F>A's some crazy neo-nazi didn't you know?

Stupid troll.


----------



## MalkyBoy (Nov 14, 2007)

NameThief said:


> Is there a single black fighter you don't think is over rated at all?
> 
> Perhaps I'm seeing too much, but that seems a predictable theme in you.


Not the fricken race card again. It always comes down to this, despite the fact Rampage and Anderson Silva so popular on this forum. Anderson Silva is the 2nd coming of christ according to some members, but if you don't wash Rashad's ball you are racist.


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## NameThief (Dec 28, 2008)

Bazza89 said:


> Yeah F>A's some crazy neo-nazi didn't you know?
> 
> Stupid troll.


Your words, not mine. 

My question was sincere.


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## NastyNinja (Feb 4, 2009)

The Belt = The Great/ The Best / The Winner Of his sport

Rashad = Has Belt = Is Great


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## MalkyBoy (Nov 14, 2007)

NastyNinja said:


> The Belt = The Great/ The Best / The Winner Of his sport
> 
> Rashad = Has Belt = Is Great


Matt Serra was great?

Matt Serra was never great was b level at best. MMA math fails again


----------



## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> Comparing it to the other fighters in the same weight division is a good barometer IMO, how else do you suggest we could accurately assess the fighters skills? And as I said if it (the skill/ability) is the best or one of the best in a _stacked_ division, I have no problem calling it "great".


Okay...you can continue to have no problem with that...but I will continue to have a problem with it. I don't think the talent in the LHW division especially how lacking it is in BJJ or grapplers qualifies someone's (i.e. Rashad's in this instance) GNP as great. End of that part...we just disagree.




> You did because you just agreed he's great somewhere when you were claiming the total opposite earlier.


 So what? What does that have to do with anything. I don't think BJ is a great fighter, but I think his flexibilty is great. What does that have to do with our initial argument? Nothing...I wasn't thinking along the lines of less then significant areas of fighting. His handspeed is easily nullified by Machida's ability to recognize an attack before the hands even begin to move. 





> I really thought you were talking about particular aspects of the game as I brought up a couple of them where IMO Rashad was great at and you continued debating with me like you where defending your original point.


 I was and still am defending my point that Rashad is not great at GNP.



> If you told me you were talking about the "big 3" in the first place, I'd have agreed with you in my second post directed to you. So yeah I agree, Rashad isn't great at grappling, striking or wrestling. But so are Fedor and 99% of MMA fighters so no big of a deal really. :dunno:


I agree...that is all I have been saying. Greatness gets thrown around too much. I limit it to an all encompassing idea of a fighter in one of those three. Sorry for my lack of explaining it. 





> Sorry I don't get that part of your post. I agree with the GnP thing but what does it have to do with our discussion?


I was just saying that Fedor can almost be considered great everywhere due to his domination of people throughout his career. Especially when he is in their guard. Has little to with our discussion...just about your comment that Fedor couldn't be considered great anywhere.




> If this is what you meant then you're overlooking the "stacked division" aspect in my logic.


I just think the LHW division is full of names and not necessarily talent. This is like the HW division of boxing back in the day. It is the big division for this sport because of the names. It has the power and speed combo and it usually provides excitement because it generally has more striking matches then grappling matches. It caters to the casual fan and gets marketed to death. Chuck was the biggest name in the states for a reason. People wanted to see him KO his opponent. I don't think the division is very stacked at all, especially as it pertains to grappling...therefore, a guy that has displayed flashes of greatness in the area of GNP does not necessarily need to be great to dominate in that area. Kind of like there aren't any great strikers in the MW division other then SIlva and why he so easily dominates them...but his technique has a much more tape to evaluate and is undeniable that it is great IMO. Maybe Rashad will continue to dominate and do it somewhere adn we can call him great in the future...I am just holding out on that until I have more evidence. Right now, all there has been is flashes.




> Well, I disagree. I find the top 10-15 UFC LHW fighters more well-rounded/talented than the top 10-15 UFC MW and HW fighters.


 Fair enough. I don't think that is too far out of the realm of thinking. I would suggest that is the case, but i think both those divisions you mentioned have much better talent at the top. The LHW division goes deeper for sure, but lacks a "great" fighter or someone who is great at anything in this era.




> It was against Yokoi, 3 and a half years ago. Before that it was against Chuck, 6 and a half years ago..


That is what I was thinking....but I was too lazy to review the tape...didn't he beat up on Arona too, or did Arona nullify it pretty well?


> BTW I should remind you that Rampage had Forrest badly rocked with that uppercut in the 1st round but Forrest still managed to pull a tight guard and get back up to his feet a few seconds later. Something he failed to do against Rashad.


yeah I forgot about that...I really didn't enjoy that fight too much at all.




> That's a nice quote but I think you're putting the word "great" on a pedestal.


 I put the p*ssy on a pedastal too. LOL...especially great p*ssy.


> Personally I use it when I feel a fighter's skill is above "very good" and below "amazing", as simple as that. :dunno:


Well I don't have amazing in my rankings. 





> Haha thanks man but I don't see debating as a win/lose thing. We're just exchanging ideas and POVs and to be fair to ZZ he does make some _great_ points (emphasis on great :thumb02.


Me either, but I guess he will have to change it now. :thumb02:




NastyNinja said:


> The Belt = The Great/ The Best / The Winner Of his sport
> 
> Rashad = Has Belt = Is Great


Not really, I see you rlogic, but I think it is flawed and has already been addressed.



Spoken812 said:


> Shhhhh, I'm trying to end the e-debate. Shhhhh.
> 
> Although it's a good debate. It's more of a logic debate and not really a debate on the fight. Pretty much ZZtiger thinks Rashad is like.. average or good at best. It's pretty dumb to say IMO.


No I said he is very good. He is a well rounded fighter and poses a touch match-up for anyone.


Of course I said Rashad has great handspeed...no one can ever deny that. But Xerxes and your point was that Rashad has "great" ground-n-pound...I feel that is just untrue and based on your loose definitions of great.



> But anyways. I was reading, and ZZtiger said what Xerxes wanted him to say "Rashad has great X" so I figured, all of this bickering can stop :dunno:


Actually the whole debate was about Rashad's ability to GNP someone being considered great, not about me calling anything and everything Rashad does less then great. And eventually (i.e. in his last post) Xerxes almost agreed with me...so I guess I win. :thumb02: Eventhough there are not any winners in debates.


----------



## The Dark Knight (Jun 29, 2008)

Bazza89 said:


> Yeah, KO's of Randy (twice), Tito (twice), Babalu (twice), Horn, Randleman, Mezger and Overeem not to mention wins over Wanderlei, Vitor and Monson and a two year stint as champ where he looked unstoppable definitely seems "iffy" to me.


Can't believe that i'm agreeing with Bazza for once :confused03:

It's true though, there is absolutely nothing 'iffy' about Chuck's reign. Whether you like his style or not, Chuck was a frighteningly dominant champion for a long time. I personally think that he is an excellent fighter.



Bazza89 said:


> Yeah F>A's some crazy neo-nazi didn't you know?
> 
> Stupid troll.


No need for that, mate. He was askin' a simple question.



Bazza89 said:


> Machida's been to several decisions and has never really looked to be running out of gas whereas Rashad's cardio has looked pretty bad on several occasions. I think it looked a lot better in the Forrest fight cos I've never seen him come out for the third round looking fresh before but I still think there's question marks over it.


Yeah, I think Rashad's match with Forrest somewhat indicates that his cardio has improved a bit. He knew that Forrest is known for his excellent stamina so he obviously went to lengths to improve on that area. I reckon he would have been fine if the fight had gone to a 5th round. 

I don't really question Machida's cardio, either. I reckon both guys will be ready to go the extra mile. Machida might have had the edge in the past, but Rashad himself has said numerous times that he knows he is going have to be at his absolute 'best' to defeat Machida and that includes training like he can go for ten rounds. And I hope he does. 

As for strategy..well, I kinda see Rashad approaching this fight similarly to how he approached his fight with Liddell. It'll be a case of countering the counter fighter, which is obviously more difficult than it sounds. Rashad is unlikely to frustrate Machida the way he frustrated Liddell, but if he can catch Machida off guard then he can put Machida away. And hopefully for good!


----------



## Bazza89 (Dec 31, 2006)

The Dark Knight said:


> Can't believe that i'm agreeing with Bazza for once :confused03:
> 
> It's true though, there is absolutely nothing 'iffy' about Chuck's reign. Whether you like his style or not, Chuck was a frighteningly dominant champion for a long time. I personally think that he is an excellent fighter.


Stranger things have happened.

People try to dismiss Chuck as a mediocre striker with good power who only fought grapplers but on that list are Wandy, Mezger, Overeem and Belfort, all top strikers and he KO'd two of them and handily UD'd the other two.



The Dark Knight said:


> No need for that, mate. He was askin' a simple question.


No he wasn't. He was "playing the race card", trolling, and accusing a very well respected and valuable member on here of racism, none of that is okay so I think my response was entirely justfied.

Try to watch your double (triple) posting aswell mate.


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## NastyNinja (Feb 4, 2009)

So you dont understand what the belt means.


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## MalkyBoy (Nov 14, 2007)

NastyNinja said:


> So you dont understand what the belt means.


Are you responding to me? If so use quotes. Having the belt is to signify that you are the best in your division.


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## NastyNinja (Feb 4, 2009)

Oh sorry just saying if you cant grasp why the greatest would be applied to rashad right now then it is just not worth saying, just means you have emotional views and not reality views.

Oh and No it was not to you, just checked lol

and I also ment the greatest at the MMA game right now... that includes the skill known as GnP


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

NameThief said:


> Is there a single black fighter you don't think is over rated at all?
> 
> Perhaps I'm seeing too much, but that seems a predictable theme in you.


Or perhaps the predictable theme is that I evaluate fighters based-on what they've shown me, rather than what their skin colour is? I enjoy mixed martial arts and I especially enjoy evaluating fighters' abilities, if I see holes in someone's game, I'm obviously going to point them out.




Bazza89 said:


> Yeah F>A's some crazy neo-nazi didn't you know?
> 
> Stupid troll.


You're partially correct, I'm a neo-grammar Nazi lol.



The Dark Knight said:


> No need for that, mate. He was askin' a simple question.


With a pretty simple answer. I believe I wrote an enormous article on why Rampage would beat Silva when everyone was saying "Silva via MURDER". It seems as though you guys only accuse me of racism when I say negative things about fighters you perform fellatio on. :thumbsdown:


----------



## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> Okay...you can continue to have no problem with that...but I will continue to have a problem with it. I don't think the talent in the LHW division *especially how lacking it is in BJJ or grapplers qualifies someone's (i.e. Rashad's in this instance) GNP as great.* End of that part...we just disagree.


I agree, the LHW division is lacking of BJJ talent ATM but I never mentioned anything about Rashad's BJJ. I talked about his GnP, ability to capitalize on opponents' mistakes and hand speed, none of them have much to do with BJJ, so I don't get your logic behind the bolded part :dunno:

Lastly, I think Shogun and Thiago Silva have the best BJJ at LHW (I need to see more of Vinny) but I wouldn't qualify their jitz as great for the reason we both stated above. 



> So what? What does that have to do with anything. I don't think BJ is a great fighter, *but I think his flexibilty is great.*


I guess we're arguing about semantics the whole time lol. To me BJ's flexibility is uncommon in the whole sport so I'd call it amazing, not just great. 



> What does that have to do with our initial argument? Nothing...I wasn't thinking along the lines of less then significant areas of fighting.


I see. As I said I thought we were debating about particular skills/abilities the whole time. 



> His handspeed is easily nullified by Machida's ability to recognize an attack before the hands even begin to move.


I don't think Machida's ever faced an opponent with the hand speed of Rashad. Machida's elusiveness relies on his excellent timing, on the fact that he can anticipate a strike and step out of reach while the strike is thrown. Rashad's hand speed can nullify this last point, especially if he can keep Machida guessing by throwing feints, moving around, changing stances etc. aka being unpredictable and trying to confuse him lol. I expect Machida to weigh in just above 200 lbs to be as fast as he can against Rashad. 

But Machida WILL get hit in the face against Rashad. He did a few times by Sokky, and whilst explosive, he's not that fast of a striker. The question is will it be enough for Rashad to get the W. 

The strikes Machida recognizes and counters best are low leg kicks IMO.



> I was just saying that Fedor can almost be considered great everywhere due to his domination of people throughout his career. Especially when he is in their guard. Has little to with our discussion...just about your comment that Fedor couldn't be considered great anywhere.


Fedor's a *G*reat fighter but he isn't great in wrestling, striking or grappling. What makes him great and "undefeated" is his ability to use each discipline to make the other very effective (a bit like GSP), his transitions between each of them and ability to capitalize on any his opponent's mistakes (proved it recently again).



> I just think the LHW division is full of names and not necessarily talent. This is like the HW division of boxing back in the day. It is the big division for this sport because of the names. It has the power and speed combo and it usually provides excitement because it generally has more striking matches then grappling matches. It caters to the casual fan and gets marketed to death. Chuck was the biggest name in the states for a reason. People wanted to see him KO his opponent. I don't think the division is very stacked at all, especially as it pertains to grappling...therefore, a guy that has displayed flashes of greatness in the area of GNP does not necessarily need to be great to dominate in that area. Kind of like there aren't any great strikers in the MW division other then SIlva and why he so easily dominates them...but his technique has a much more tape to evaluate and is undeniable that it is great IMO. Maybe Rashad will continue to dominate and do it somewhere adn we can call him great in the future...I am just holding out on that until I have more evidence. Right now, all there has been is flashes.


Yeah the LHW has big names but most of the aren't doing well and are on their way down: Chuck, Wandy, Shogun... But we still have Rampage, Forrest, Rashad, Machida, Franklin, (Hendo), Jardine, Thiago Silva and the up and comers, Jon Jones, Reljic, Luis Cane, Vera, Hamill, Cantwell, Bader etc. Some of them just need a few wins and being built/marketed to gain name value. See, I find these guys far more well rounded than the top UFC MW fighters. Hell, it can be argued that the long time MW champ Anderson Silva is not even well rounded. :dunno:



> Fair enough. I don't think that is too far out of the realm of thinking. I would suggest that is the case, but i think both those divisions you mentioned have much better talent at the top. The LHW division goes deeper for sure, but lacks a "great" fighter or someone who is great at anything in this era.


IMO that's because the LHW division is in transition between the Chuck/possible Wandy or Shogun era to a new era where more contenders need to rise. The talent is there, give it some time and you'll see them rise, challenge and dominate. 



> That is what I was thinking....but I was too lazy to review the tape...didn't he beat up on Arona too, or did Arona nullify it pretty well?


I was talking about Rampage finishing an opponent with GnP. He finished Arona with this famous slam. 



> yeah I forgot about that...I really didn't enjoy that fight too much at all.


You didn't really? It was one of the best fights of 08', IMO.


----------



## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

I'd disagree that Fedor isn't "great" anywhere. His cardio is great and even more obviously, his ability to blend mixed martial arts seamlessly is great. 

Frank Trigg said it best, "Fedor's a brown-belt level at pretty much everything, that's why he's amazing."


----------



## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> I'd disagree that Fedor isn't "great" anywhere. His cardio is great and even more obviously, his ability to blend mixed martial arts seamlessly is great.
> 
> Frank Trigg said it best, "Fedor's a brown-belt level at pretty much everything, that's why he's amazing."


Oh if we're talking about particular skills/aspects of MMA we could go on until tomorrow with Fedor lol. but ZZTigerZZ was talking about the 3 big disciplines: wrestling, striking and grappling not about particular aspects such as cardio, GnP, speed, explosiveness, flexibility etc.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

All this quoting, man, how do you guys keep doing it? I would have just stopped posting and "lost" the debate long ago.


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## NameThief (Dec 28, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> I'd disagree that Fedor isn't "great" anywhere.
> "


LOL!

Fedor is a "great" striker against torpid heavyweight slugs...he barely survived Arlovski and got tooled by some kid (stand-up wise) in a ***** fight(?!). LOL.

Really, Fedor is a great grappler with generally clumsy stand up rivalrly.


----------



## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Fedor>all said:


> You're partially correct, I'm a neo-grammar Nazi lol.


OMG he just said he's a Nazi! GET HIM!

BTW. My thoughts continued. I think a lot of people underestimate Rashad's takedown ability because he hasn't been using them lately. Bisping he took down repeatedly (I remember seeing two, I'll rewatch it later) Lambert he put a takedown clinic on, he slammed Tito multiple times, slammed Hoger... I think he slammed all of his opponents except Chuck which he slammed him with a fist.

He's taken down all of his opponents that he wanted to take down, failing rarely. Pretty soon, when his striking is at it's full potential, he'll be an even bigger wrecking ball then he is now.


----------



## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

NastyNinja said:


> Oh sorry just saying if you cant grasp why the greatest would be applied to rashad right now then it is just not worth saying, just means you have emotional views and not reality views.
> 
> Oh and No it was not to you, just checked lol
> 
> and I also ment the greatest at the MMA game right now... that includes the skill known as GnP


Wow...your qualifications for great are really low.



Xerxes said:


> I agree, the LHW division is lacking of BJJ talent ATM but I never mentioned anything about Rashad's BJJ. I talked about his GnP, ability to capitalize on opponents' mistakes and hand speed, none of them have much to do with BJJ, so I don't get your logic behind the bolded part :dunno:


The lack of BJJ talent in the division would be exaclty why you think his GNP is so good. When your opponents are weak somewhere, that makes your skills there that much better. Pretty simpple logic really. 



> Lastly, I think Shogun and Thiago Silva have the best BJJ at LHW (I need to see more of Vinny) but I wouldn't qualify their jitz as great for the reason we both stated above.


I agree...there are no great practitioners of BJJ in the division in the UFC. Vera can even be classed in with those two probably, but I doubt it. It has been so long since I have seen anything from him in that area.




> I guess we're arguing about semantics the whole time lol. To me BJ's flexibility is uncommon in the whole sport so I'd call it amazing, not just great.


Probably...I think it came down to that last time we argued too. But I don't remember...i just remember seeing the GSP fight a little differently. I thought BJ would be better. Still disappointed in that performance adn his subsequent actions since it. 





> I see. As I said I thought we were debating about particular skills/abilities the whole time.


That was probably my fault.





> I don't think Machida's ever faced an opponent with the hand speed of Rashad. Machida's elusiveness relies on his excellent timing, on the fact that he can anticipate a strike and step out of reach while the strike is thrown. Rashad's hand speed can nullify this last point, especially if he can keep Machida guessing by throwing feints, moving around, changing stances etc. aka being unpredictable and trying to confuse him lol. I expect Machida to weigh in just above 200 lbs to be as fast as he can against Rashad.


I trained Shotokan for about 3 years and though I am nowhere near Machida's level in the sport...it is more then just recognizing a strike with the hands. You learn to read the entire body and once it moves you learn to use its own movement against it. It is truly a great martial art and one that can be very dangerous to the MMA world if Machida continues to apply as well as he has. I don't think Machida will do much different then he has in the past...I suspect he will train some more with his father before meeting up with his partners and friends to focus on the gameplan and training. 


> But Machida WILL get hit in the face against Rashad. He did a few times by Sokky, and whilst explosive, he's not that fast of a striker. The question is will it be enough for Rashad to get the W.


I agree that he isn't fast at striking...that could hurt him because Rashad has really great movement, but Machida has learned to hit as effectively and accurately as one possibly can. Again this goes back to his karate training. The art was based on one strike to kill. I don't think he will KO Rashad. Rashad's chin is GREAT (c wut i did thar). But he could stun him and possibly put him on his back.


> The strikes Machida recognizes and counters best are low leg kicks IMO.


He does great with cross body punches as well. He turns those into karate throws...that you call trips where he steps under and puts his leg behind their leg and pushes them down. 



> Fedor's a *G*reat fighter but he isn't great in wrestling, striking or grappling. What makes him great and "undefeated" is his ability to use each discipline to make the other very effective (a bit like GSP), his transitions between each of them and ability to capitalize on any his opponent's mistakes (proved it recently again).


His grappling is amazing as you say (great as I say)...with his combo of judo/*****, BJJ, and wreslting...there aren't any fighters at HW that could do much in the grappling area to him. 





> Yeah the LHW has big names but most of the aren't doing well and are on their way down: Chuck, Wandy, Shogun... But we still have Rampage, Forrest, Rashad, Machida, Franklin, (Hendo), Jardine, Thiago Silva and the up and comers, Jon Jones, Reljic, Luis Cane, Vera, Hamill, Cantwell, Bader etc. Some of them just need a few wins and being built/marketed to gain name value. See, I find these guys far more well rounded than the top UFC MW fighters. Hell, it can be argued that the long time MW champ Anderson Silva is not even well rounded. :dunno:


I don't think Forrest, Jardine, and Rampage are great at anything either. But I really want to see some of those guys in your last group get thrown in there with one another or maybe some bigger names. I liked how Vera looked in his last fight. He looked comfortable in the octagon for the first time ina while and his movement was awesome. 




> IMO that's because the LHW division is in transition between the Chuck/possible Wandy or Shogun era to a new era where more contenders need to rise. The talent is there, give it some time and you'll see them rise, challenge and dominate.


I agree...the MW division just went throught this. 





> I was talking about Rampage finishing an opponent with GnP. He finished Arona with this famous slam.


Yeah.




> You didn't really? It was one of the best fights of 08', IMO.


I like grappling battles a lot more...I just wasn't into that fight. I don't really like any of Forrest's fights though. 



Spoken812 said:


> BTW. My thoughts continued. I think a lot of people underestimate Rashad's takedown ability because he hasn't been using them lately. Bisping he took down repeatedly (I remember seeing two, I'll rewatch it later) Lambert he put a takedown clinic on, he slammed Tito multiple times, slammed Hoger... I think he slammed all of his opponents except Chuck which he slammed him with a fist.
> 
> He's taken down all of his opponents that he wanted to take down, failing rarely. Pretty soon, when his striking is at it's full potential, he'll be an even bigger wrecking ball then he is now.


I agree with this too...his takedowns are top notch, but my problem is that he still hasn't been able to capilalize once he gets there. He has like one sub and 2 GNP victories. And by your own admission he has taken down almost all his opponents more then once.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

He knocked out Lambert and Griffin from the full mount and full guard. If that's not GREAT GnP then I dunno what is.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> He knocked out Lambert and Griffin from the full mount and full guard. If that's not GREAT GnP then I dunno what is.


flashes of great...doesn't qualify it as great to me...Lambert is a freaking joke too. Griffin...Jardine knocked him out standing...is Jardine's striking great too? He also KO'd Houston with it (comparable to Lambert), so now they have the same sample size against the same level of talent...is Jardine a great striker?

The sample size and examples of Rashad effectively GNp'ing someone is too small for it to be great...he took down every opponent in the UFC by your own admission and finished two...that is a 20% finish ratio and he had tons of time with the other people on the ground. How is that great GNP? He didn't get a rep as alay-n-pray artist early on in his career because he was exhibiting great GNP skills.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> flashes of great...doesn't qualify it as great to me...Lambert is a freaking joke too. Griffin...Jardine knocked him out standing...is Jardine's striking great too? He also KO'd Houston with it (comparable to Lambert), so now they have the same sample size against the same level of talent...is Jardine a great striker?
> 
> The sample size and examples of Rashad effectively GNp'ing someone is too small for it to be great...he took down every opponent in the UFC by your own admission and finished two...that is a 20% finish ratio and he had tons of time with the other people on the ground. How is that great GNP? He didn't get a rep as alay-n-pray artist early on in his career because he was exhibiting great GNP skills.


How many flashes do you need? Lambert is a joke? Who are you kidding! Now I'm wondering if your just a very persistent troll.. But I'll answer anyways.

You're using MMAth, branching off. You start from talking about Rashad to Lambert to Forrest, then to Jardine and Houston and.. why? Stay on topic. Styles makes fights.

You also have to factor in improvements. He started getting progressively better each fight since he started training with Greg Jackson. You talk a lot about early on in his career where his GnP was just average. But after the Forrest fight, as soon as it hit the ground Forrest was getting tooled. And don't blame it on Forrest being rocked, he regained his composer and still got TKO'd.

And yeah he took down everyone he wanted to take down. Doesn't mean he has to finish there. He knocked people out standing too. Got a bunch of decisions, but he was still very effective. He went from having great takedowns and average GnP to having great takedowns and great GnP.

Is that all man?


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> How many flashes do you need? Lambert is a joke? Who are you kidding! Now I'm wondering if your just a very persistent troll.. But I'll answer anyways.
> 
> You're using MMAth, branching off. You start from talking about Rashad to Lambert to Forrest, then to Jardine and Houston and.. why? Stay on topic. Styles makes fights.
> 
> ...


First, yeah lambert is a joke...he ahs one solid win in a long career and that was against Babalu. He lost 4 of his last 5 fights. he ahs lost to every fighter that is better then average with the previously mentioned exception.

How many flashes do I need? More then freaking two. I am not using MMAth either. I used the same example applied elsewhere. You said Rashad's GNP was great because he finished Forrest and Lamebrt with it. I said does that make Jardine's strikign great because he finished Houston and Forrest with it? that ain't math that is logic. So if you want to apply a fancy term to it call it MMAlogic. And what does styles making fights have to do with our conversation? Take your own advice and stay on topic.

Yo're right that Rashad started getting progressively better when he started training with Jackson...especially in the GNP area (maybe he is greasing...BTW I am just freaking kidding..so let's not freak out people).

I have mentioned that in many other posts in many other thread...I think I might even have called Rashad the most improved fighter of 2008. BUt that doesn't make his GNP great. When it goes from non-existent to much improved...there seems to be some other categories we are skipping in between.

Have you ever been rocked? I ask because you don't fully regain your composure...especially while constantly trying to defend more strikes. Forrest was rocked and no matter how well he handled it...he didn't regain his composure. The subsequent strikes whene a fighter/person is rocked amplify the feeling much more so then they normally would if you were never rocked to begin with. It sucks...you feel pain and nausea and dizziness all at the same time.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> The lack of BJJ talent in the division would be exaclty why you think his GNP is so good. When your opponents are weak somewhere, that makes your skills there that much better. Pretty simpple logic really.


I see what you mean now, but BJJ is far from being the only discipline coming to play when being off your back. You'd also have to use your wrestling skills to try to get back up and/or your striking defense skills to avoid some of the shots from your opponent is throwing from the top. My point is defense to GnP cannot be limited to BJJ only. 



> I agree...there are no great practitioners of BJJ in the division in the UFC. Vera can even be classed in with those two probably, but I doubt it. It has been so long since I have seen anything from him in that area.


Yeah I hope he'll become a force at LHW, it will only make it deeper and more exciting. 



> Probably...I think it came down to that last time we argued too. But I don't remember...i just remember seeing the GSP fight a little differently. I thought BJ would be better. Still disappointed in that performance adn his subsequent actions since it.


That greasing debacle is so unfortunate. I wish it didn't happen and I also wish BJ trained more for what he depicted as the most important fight of his career, and the biggest fight in MMA history... Granted GSP was 20 lbs heavier but he gassed out after 5 minutes which is not acceptable (not that what happened in GSP's corner is...) 



> That was probably my fault.


No worries, I could see why you didn't. 



> I trained Shotokan for about 3 years and though I am nowhere near Machida's level in the sport...it is more then just recognizing a strike with the hands. You learn to read the entire body and once it moves you learn to use its own movement against it. It is truly a great martial art and one that can be very dangerous to the MMA world if Machida continues to apply as well as he has. I don't think Machida will do much different then he has in the past...I suspect he will train some more with his father before meeting up with his partners and friends *to focus on the gameplan and training*.


That's interesting, I didn't know all that. Cool thing is if Machida does well and establishes himself in the UFC, more people will want to learn this MA and the next generation of MMartists will have lots of Shotokan experts (bit like what Royce did for BJJ). 

About the game plan. Something else I find interesting about Machida is that he doesn't have to train for a specific opponent as much as they have to train for him specifically. I think his game plan relies a lot on how aggressive his opponent is expected to be. 



> I agree that *he* isn't fast at striking...that could hurt him because Rashad has really great movement, but Machida has learned to hit as effectively and accurately as one possibly can. Again this goes back to his karate training. The art was based on one strike to kill.


Just to make sure, "he" refers to Sokky and not Machida right? Because I find Machida's strikes pretty fast and the fact that he sets them up with feints makes them even faster. 



> I don't think he will KO Rashad. Rashad's chin is GREAT (c wut i did thar). But he could stun him and possibly put him on his back.


Hehe, I see it. You also did it a few lines above when qualifying his movement :thumb02:

I don't think he's going to KO Rashad either because he's not going to be in his face like Thiago was. Machida weighed in very heavy against a slow striker in Thiago whom I think he planned on (T)KO'ing (you have to in order to get the shot faster right) but I expect him to weigh in much lighter against Rashad to have lighter, faster hands and have better cardio if it goes the distance. 



> He does great with cross body punches as well. He turns those into karate throws...that you call trips where he steps under and puts his leg behind their leg and pushes them down.


His trips are amazing, he executes them so fast and almost like he doesn't put any strength into them. They are so effective. 



> His grappling is amazing as you say (great as I say)...with his combo of judo/*****, BJJ, and wreslting...there aren't any fighters at HW that could do much in the grappling area to him.


What makes Fedor's grappling so great IMO is his GnP. I don't know how he'd do against an established black belt in a pure BJJ fight. :dunno:



> I don't think Forrest, Jardine, and Rampage are great at anything either. But I really want to see some of those guys in your last group get thrown in there with one another or maybe some bigger names. I liked how Vera looked in his last fight. He looked comfortable in the octagon for the first time ina while and his movement was awesome.


Yeah me too. It's just a matter of time IMO. 



> I like grappling battles a lot more...I just wasn't into that fight. I don't really like any of Forrest's fights though.


I guess you loved MacDonald/Maia then. Definitely a serious candidate for fight of the year 08'.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> First, yeah lambert is a joke...he ahs one solid win in a long career and that was against Babalu. He lost 4 of his last 5 fights. he ahs lost to every fighter that is better then average with the previously mentioned exception.
> 
> How many flashes do I need? More then freaking two. I am not using MMAth either. I used the same example applied elsewhere. You said Rashad's GNP was great because he finished Forrest and Lamebrt with it. I said does that make Jardine's strikign great because he finished Houston and Forrest with it? that ain't math that is logic. So if you want to apply a fancy term to it call it MMAlogic. And what does styles making fights have to do with our conversation? Take your own advice and stay on topic.
> 
> ...


Look at the time of the fight. Before he fought Rashad he was on like.. an 8 win streak. This is when Rashad was off TUF for less then a year. That was a good matchup back when it took place and Lambert was no joke.

So, with your logic, a flash of greatness is a KO/TKO, then your definition of great is waaaaaaay to high. I call him toolin everyone he wanted (except Tito Ortiz who had to cheat his way to draw) on the great is great ground game. 

The GREASE JOKE!!! NOOOO! Nah I'm playin.

As for your 4th paragraph, I don't think he made that big of a jump. Just from average, to good, to great GnP over time. He has improved a great deal in 08 especially.

My brother rocked me once, and you are absolutely right. I was seeing double for what seemed like a long time.. and I just kinda layed on the ground thinking I was permantely crossed eyed. It kinda hurt, but I wasn't sick or anything. I wasn't all that badly rocked either. I guess it's a fair argument to say that he was rocked, you got that one.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

As I said in a previous post Rampage rocked Forrest even worse with that uppercut though, but he managed to get back up to his feet.

Oh and ZZ and Spoken, neither of you are UFC fighter lol so there is no much to compare IMO.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Xerxes said:


> As I said in a previous post Rampage rocked Forrest even worse with that uppercut though, but he managed to get back up to his feet.
> 
> Oh and ZZ and Spoken, neither of you are UFC fighter lol so there is no much to compare IMO.


You didn't know? I'm Dean Lister.

:bye02:


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

Spoken812 said:


> You didn't know? I'm Dean Lister.
> 
> :bye02:


phht, if you were dean lister you would've spoken about how great you are at BJJ and if we disagreed you wouldve pulled guard on us.

Im just saying i find it hard to believe


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Spoken812 said:


> You didn't know? I'm Dean Lister.
> 
> :bye02:


Lol, too bad for you. I am Okami


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Suizida said:


> phht, if you were dean lister you would've spoken about how great you are at BJJ and if we disagreed you wouldve pulled guard on us.
> 
> Im just saying i find it hard to believe


I've been working stand up?



Xerxes said:


> Lol, too bad for you. I am Okami


And THAT WAS A FLUKE.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Either way you aren't a UFC fighter so point still stands


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## cdnbaron (Jan 17, 2007)

Spoken812 said:


> I call him toolin everyone he wanted (except Tito Ortiz who had to cheat his way to draw) on the great is great ground game.


I don't really like jumping into other people's debates...

So since Rashad tools everyone he wants to, did he just not want to tool Bisping for some reason? Because I seem to remember that being a pretty close fight, with Rashad struggling a fair deal to get takedowns, and keep Bisping down, especially early. I haven't watched that fight in a year and a half though, so I could be completely off-base.

In a couple pages ago news...

I don't like when MMA gets broken down simply into the three categories of striking, wrestling and grappling. If you were to look at it more like striking, transitions/takedowns/controlling where the fight takes place, grappling it would be a lot more fitting. I agree that Fedor doesn't have great (or even very good) wrestling, but he definitely has great judo and balance, and uses those two skills to normally end up where he wants to be. Oh, and saying that Fedor isn't great at grappling is just kind of ridiculous. Even if he wasn't allowed to punch Nog in their fights, I would wager that he still would not have been tapped. As for his striking, lets just say it gets the job done and leave it at that.


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## ZZtigerZZ81 (Jul 8, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> As I said in a previous post Rampage rocked Forrest even worse with that uppercut though, but he managed to get back up to his feet.
> 
> Oh and ZZ and Spoken, neither of you are UFC fighter lol so there is no much to compare IMO.


Agreed. We are both bitches. 

I really don't remember Forrest being that badly hurt, but I only saw that fight once so I will certainly take your word for it. 



Spoken812 said:


> You didn't know? I'm Dean Lister.
> 
> :bye02:


If that were true then, your chin would have caused you to make many typos.:dunno:



Spoken812 said:


> Look at the time of the fight. Before he fought Rashad he was on like.. an 8 win streak. This is when Rashad was off TUF for less then a year. That was a good matchup back when it took place and Lambert was no joke.
> 
> So, with your logic, a flash of greatness is a KO/TKO, then your definition of great is waaaaaaay to high. I call him toolin everyone he wanted (except Tito Ortiz who had to cheat his way to draw) on the great is great ground game.
> 
> ...


But in the same sense that Rashad has proven himself a good fighter, Lambert has proven himself not to be. Anyone he fought that was better then average beat him...didn't he recently drop weight because of his poor streak at LHW? Lambert is a good test, but nothing more. He isn't even gatekeeper worthy. He is less of a test then Herring is at HW. 

But like I said, we agree that Rashad has improved significantly...I still just don't think he is great anywhere (in the grappling and striking areas specifically...when you break those up sure he can be considered great in some things as previously addressed as can just about any contender or else they wouldn't be contenders).



cdnbaron said:


> I don't really like jumping into other people's debates...
> 
> So since Rashad tools everyone he wants to, did he just not want to tool Bisping for some reason? Because I seem to remember that being a pretty close fight, with Rashad struggling a fair deal to get takedowns, and keep Bisping down, especially early. I haven't watched that fight in a year and a half though, so I could be completely off-base.
> 
> ...


I wasn't really breaking down the sport into those three categories, just Rashad. I agree that there is tons more that goes into MMA then the three main aspects and I am selling it short when I exclude all the other ones, but I have to categorize the little parts into the big parts somtimes or else we'll just be here all day.

This was a pretty good discussion. + reps


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

ZZtigerZZ81 said:


> Agreed. We are both bitches.
> 
> I really don't remember Forrest being that badly hurt, but I only saw that fight once so I will certainly take your word for it.


Haha, no offense. My point was I don't think you guys get hit in the face as much as pro fighters. 

Yeah Forrest was badly rocked. He got knocked down by a huge uppercut, pulls full guard and Rampage makes the mistake of carrying him to the fence which gave Forrest some extra time to recover. Page lands a few shots but Forrest stands back up.


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## starbug (Sep 9, 2007)

pliff said:


> I really really like this fight.
> 
> As of now, I have Machida taking the belt away from Rashad but I still dont know why. This is a fight that needs much further analysis on my part.
> 
> ...


Dont expect fireworks in this fight, it will be very tactical, cat and mouse. I think machida cud take it in round 4 or 5, but both fighters counter, so who knows


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> OMG he just said he's a Nazi! GET HIM!
> 
> BTW. My thoughts continued. I think a lot of people underestimate Rashad's takedown ability because he hasn't been using them lately. Bisping he took down repeatedly (I remember seeing two, I'll rewatch it later) Lambert he put a takedown clinic on, he *slammed Tito multiple times*, slammed Hoger... I think he slammed all of his opponents except Chuck which he slammed him with a fist.



He never slammed Tito, he shot in for a double in the third and followed through with it. That's the most significant takedown he had the entire fight, aside from that Tito---a fairly average wrestler by today's standards---was able to neutralize Rashad's takedowns. Machida took Tito down with the greatest of ease through excellent technique, I really don't see him having problems doing the same to Rashad whose wrestling isn't that great.



Spoken812 said:


> He's taken down all of his opponents that he wanted to take down, failing rarely.


As soon as he faced a guy who relies predominantly on wrestling, he was made to look like an average wrestler. The whole Tito fight he struggled against the fence to get Ortiz to the mat, if anything his takedowns themselves were rarely ascertained.



Spoken812 said:


> Pretty soon, when his striking is at it's full potential, he'll be an even bigger wrecking ball then he is now.


Right now he's pretty much what Chuck Liddell was, only more athletic and easier to takedown. He hasn't shown any submission skills at all, and he hasn't been facing guys that have really looked to expose him on the ground. If he can keep a fight standing he always will have a great chance at winning the fight, but there are still a lot of questions about him that need answering.



NameThief said:


> LOL!
> 
> Fedor is a "great" striker against torpid heavyweight slugs...


Cro Cop in his prime was hardly a "torpid heavyweight slug" and Fedor beat him standing.




NameThief said:


> he barely survived Arlovski


Andrei didn't survive him standing. Go to the Affliction forum and look at the gifs from the fight, Andrei rarely landed anything significant, cleanly.



NameThief said:


> and got tooled by some kid (stand-up wise) in a ***** fight(?!). LOL.


Obviously you never watched his fight with Blagoi Ivanov, because Fedor beat him standing. The reason he lost was because he was out-pointed based-on takedowns. Fedor actually dropped Ivanov towards the end of their fight to come back on points, but it wasn't quite enough.




NameThief said:


> Really, Fedor is a great grappler with generally clumsy stand up rivalrly.



There's a reason your rep bar is red, and it's because you post garbage that isn't substantiated with anything beyond your own personal bias.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

I know it was a long time ago, but I think Sean Salmon was out-wrestling Rashad in their fight. I'd have to watch it again to be sure, but I'm about 80% certain Salmon was the better wrestler in that fight.


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Looks like a slam to me :dunno: (1m33s in the video)


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## Suizida (Feb 29, 2008)

Suvaco said:


> I know it was a long time ago, but I think Sean Salmon was out-wrestling Rashad in their fight. I'd have to watch it again to be sure, but I'm about 80% certain Salmon was the better wrestler in that fight.


He was, i watched it a couple of months back
Even the head kick wasn't as impressive as you see it now, cause he was trying to set it up all night


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## Fedor>all (Oct 22, 2006)

Xerxes said:


> Looks like a slam to me :dunno: (1m33s in the video)


Okay, you're right, it was a slam, but to pluralize that like Spoken did is simply a lie. :dunno:


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Don't be too hard on Spoken812 guys, after all he's a self-proclaimed Rashad nuthugger. He's not lying, he just doesn't see what we see :laugh:


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

Xerxes said:


> Don't be too hard on Spoken812 guys, after all he's a self-proclaimed Rashad nuthugger. He's not lying, he just doesn't see what we see :laugh:


This. Also, I thought he got 2 good solid takedowns. If I'm wrong.. and it's only 1. Then my bad.

But I have no reasons to lie, this isn't shitdog. You guys are to smart to lie to:thumb02:


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

Spoken812 said:


> Look at the time of the fight. Before he fought Rashad he was on like.. an 8 win streak. This is when Rashad was off TUF for less then a year. That was a good matchup back when it took place and Lambert was no joke.
> 
> So, with your logic, a flash of greatness is a KO/TKO, then your definition of great is waaaaaaay to high. I call him toolin everyone he wanted (*except Tito Ortiz who had to cheat his way to draw*) on the great is great ground game.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about? Rashad made that fight a draw in the last 15 seconds of the fight.


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## NameThief (Dec 28, 2008)

Fedor>all said:


> There's a reason your rep bar is red, and it's because you post garbage that isn't substantiated with anything beyond your own personal bias.


And you're so holier than thou that you're beyond bias, huh? Bias is your hallmark, dude -- look at your friggin name, LOL! :laugh:

And about my rep being red, I don't bleed from it. Neither do your opinions get some automatic validation just because your rep is in green. Very schoolyard of you.


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## SpoKen (Apr 28, 2007)

NameThief said:


> And you're so holier than thou that you're beyond bias, huh? Bias is your hallmark, dude -- look at your friggin name, LOL! :laugh:
> 
> And about my rep being red, I don't bleed from it. Neither do your opinions get some automatic validation just because your rep is in green. Very schoolyard of you.


Personal attacks, I SO saw this coming.

My betting line is Namethief +825 to F<A -825 (I don't know how they do that shit...)

place all bets now.


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