# Sherdog.com Final 2009 Pound-for-Pound Rankings



## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

> It was a fairly wild year for the pound-for-pound landscape in mixed martial arts.
> 
> Of course, MMA’s pound-for-pound top trio -- Anderson Silva, Georges St. Pierre and Fedor Emelianenko -- stayed intact, each one picking up two wins in 2009. Some were less enthusing, like Silva’s win over Thales Leites, and some were not quite so competitive, like St. Pierre’s routs of B.J. Penn and Thiago Alves. But they all, in one way or another, whether perfunctory or dramatic, reinforced the status of the sport’s Big Three.
> 
> ...


Source

Do you agree? If not, what would you change?


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## AK-Bronco (Feb 25, 2008)

I'm not a Brock type of guy, but he should be on this list somewhere.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I totally agree with the top #5 places in this list, they are exactly right! I just duno if Alves belongs in this one as number #10. I would put Shogun into it, I think he deserves to be mentioned as a top 10 fighter again after his fight with Lyoto.

Mousasi needs to be in there too, Alves out Mousasi in.


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## wakeboy (Sep 14, 2009)

brock is dependant on his weight and strength advantage for him to win fights... if he was fighting people the same weight and strength he would probably end up losing... therefore hes not included in pvp:thumbsup:


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## Xerxes (Aug 14, 2008)

Fitch in the top 10 is a travesty, let alone #7 (imo).


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## AK-Bronco (Feb 25, 2008)

wakeboy said:


> brock is dependant on his weight and strength advantage for him to win fights... if he was fighting people the same weight and strength he would probably end up losing... therefore hes not included in pvp:thumbsup:


GSP is not?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Seriously Thiago Alves? Wow, what are they putting in the Koolaid over at Sherdog?


I can think of 10 fighters at least that deserved that spot before Alves...


*Gegard Mousasi
Eddie Alvarez
Dan Henderson
Fabricio Werdum
Hector Lombard
Jake Shields
Shinya Aoki
Tatsuya Kawajiri
Melvin Manhoef
Frankie Edgar*


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## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

Others already pointed it out, but yeah Alves is not top 10 p4p even though he is like #3 WW in the world. Alves is a monster at cutting weight and uses that weight advantage very well. While the advantage isn't as big as Brock vs. <insert name of HW here> it is still one of the reasons he manages to dominate top level WWs so well. 
Basically there are guys like Aoki, Shogun, Edgar, Rashad etc. who dominate guys just as well (and often even better) than Alves does and most of the time they actually are the ones with weight disadvantage. Basically toss about anyone _RIVAL_ listed there instead of Alves and the list is fine. 

Personally I would drop Machida below Aldo and Penn too, but its really just a matter of opinion. Overall the list is fine though.


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## wakeboy (Sep 14, 2009)

AK-Bronco said:


> GSP is not?


im not sure if your serious... brock cuts to 265 so he probably fights at around 275-280... versus people who dont cut and weigh around 230 pounds... thats a 50 pound difference...

welterweight... when was the last time you didnt see someone weight in at around 170... sure this may be applicable if he was fighting against people who weighed in at 156 pounds... plus at ufc 100 thiago alves came into the fight somewhere between 190-200 pounds while gsp cuts from 185 so he probably fought somewhere around that weight... therefore he actually had the weight disadvantage?


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

First off look at the source...

Thiago Alves absolutely does not belong on that list....PERIOD!!!!


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## AK-Bronco (Feb 25, 2008)

wakeboy said:


> welterweight... when was the last time you didnt see someone weight in at around 170... sure this may be applicable if he was fighting against people who weighed in at 156 pounds...


Your right GSP had no size/strength advantage over BJ and Matt Serra. 

Same with Andy Silva, his size, strength, and reach advantage has nothing to do with his wins at 185.


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## wakeboy (Sep 14, 2009)

AK-Bronco said:


> Your right GSP had no size/strength advantage over BJ and Matt Serra.
> 
> Same with Andy Silva, his size, strength, and reach advantage has nothing to do with his wins at 185.


im not liking your ******* uncalled for sarcasm and quoting half of my post to attempt to make me look stupid... 

all fighters try to get the best size/strength advantage which is why they try and be the heaviest at their weight class... so most fighters cut large amounts of weight to get an advantage, its not just gsp and anderson silva cutting weight to get those benefits, theyre just gifted with good genetics, ffs bj is probably cutting weight now aswell with his new trainning motivation.

But guess what? most heavyweight fighters FIGHT AT THEIR NATURAL WEIGHT AND THEY DONT CUT WEIGHT... brock lesnar cuts to 265 to fight fighters that fight at their natural weight... and not only that but if you broke heavyweight division up into regular sized ranges of either 15 or 20 pounds there would be 3 divisions between hw and lhw. So most of the time brock lesnar is 1-2 divisions higher than his competition. Ffs randy couture cut down to 205, so technically speaking he should be 60 pounds heavier.

Sure bj moved up a weightclass and didnt really pack on any muscle... but is that gsps fault for giving him an ass whooping. Theres almost always going to be a strength advantage in every fight... but not one nearly as lopsided as brocks mass and size advantage...

you think anderson silvas stronger/bigger than james irvin, forrest griffin? you think gsps stronger than matt hughes?

the bottom line is for lw,ww,mw and lhw, people 95#of the time weight in at the weight requirements, atleast they weight the same at that point, the advantages lie in training and genetics.

unlike brock who who cuts to 265 to fight fighters that weigh significantly less than him... how you can even compare the size strength advantage brock posses over hws to anderson silva and gsp is moronic


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

wakeboy said:


> im not liking your ******* uncalled for sarcasm and quoting half of my post to attempt to make me look stupid...
> 
> all fighters try to get the best size/strength advantage which is why they try and be the heaviest at their weight class... so most fighters cut large amounts of weight to get an advantage, its not just gsp and anderson silva cutting weight to get those benefits, theyre just gifted with good genetics, ffs bj is probably cutting weight now aswell with his new trainning motivation.
> 
> ...


First off you need to relax a little, and leave the 
nonsense alone.


As far as your above post and what Bronco I believe is trying to point out is that you are really not that far off or I should say he isnt...

I mean Anderson walks at 225 he fights at 185...theres 40pounds he cuts right there I agree it isn't the same 20 or so that Brock cuts to get to 265 but whats your point cuz I think i just squashed it.....

Nothing about my post was moronic.....:confused02:


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## wakeboy (Sep 14, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> First off you need to relax a little, and leave the
> nonsense alone.
> 
> 
> ...


when they said that anderson was walking around a 225 at 104 it was because he just fought at lhw and because he wasnt trainning due to surgery... you think he cuts 40 pounds really?

i must be speaking in french or something, but when anderson silva weighs in at 185 so does his opponent and guess what his opponent also cuts weight. But at weighs ins they weigh the SAME AMOUNT, atleast they have a middle ground. From the middle ground is where the genetics and strength come into play, but they are limited because the day before the fighters had to weigh the same amount so it isnt very likely that one fighter will be a lot stronger than the other like in the case of brock..

Hopefully you understand what i mean by middle ground... i hope i dont need to understand what i mean by saying their could be potentially 3-4 divisions between lhw-hw. And for a guy like brock who cuts to fight at 265 to fight guys who fight at their natural weight of a guy like frank mir or coture at the time were 240 and 225 if i remember correctly is a significant disadvantage cause there is no middle ground... At the fighter brock probably weight 60 pounds more than couture and 45 more than mir. Your not going to see an advantage like this at lhw,mw,ww,lw.

and then i pointed out that gsp and anderson silva dont always require strength/size/reach advantages in a lot of their fights and which is why they are top pvp in the world.

i know i was out of line but seriously listen to what hes saying brock should be ranked top 10 pvp after 5 mma fights?


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## AK-Bronco (Feb 25, 2008)

wakeboy said:


> all fighters try to get the best size/strength advantage which is why they try and be the heaviest at their weight class... so most fighters cut large amounts of weight to get an advantage,
> 
> Sure bj moved up a weightclass and didnt really pack on any muscle... but is that gsps fault for giving him an ass whooping. Theres almost always going to be a strength advantage in every fight.
> 
> ...


You are right.


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## wakeboy (Sep 14, 2009)

AK-Bronco said:


> You are right.


thanks bro sorry for giving you attitude, happy holidays:thumb02:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

wakeboy said:


> when they said that anderson was walking around a 225 at 104 it was because he just fought at lhw and because he wasnt trainning due to surgery... you think he cuts 40 pounds really?
> 
> i must be speaking in french or something, but when anderson silva weighs in at 185 so does his opponent and guess what his opponent also cuts weight. But at weighs ins they weigh the SAME AMOUNT, atleast they have a middle ground. From the middle ground is where the genetics and strength come into play, but they are limited because the day before the fighters had to weigh the same amount so it isnt very likely that one fighter will be a lot stronger than the other like in the case of brock..
> 
> ...


Nobody ever mentioned 104 at least I didnt.....Listen to his manager discuss his weight, its into the video so your gonna actually have to watch it but you will hear him say Anderson walks all the time at 225:

http://www.mmaforum.com/ufc/68996-ed-soares-talks-about-silva-lyoto-black-house.html


As far as Mir he last weighed in a 264.5, if he continues to gain mass and endurance to manage the mass he will have to cut to fight Mir....

Bottom line there is no need to break up the divisions, plus this has been debated at length on past threads....the breking up weight classes...


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## wakeboy (Sep 14, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> Nobody ever mentioned 104 at least I didnt.....Listen to his manager discuss his weight, its into the video so your gonna actually have to watch it but you will hear him say Anderson walks all the time at 225:
> 
> 
> As far as Mir he last weighed in a 264.5, if he continues to gain mass and endurance to manage the mass he will have to cut to fight Mir....
> ...


i know his last fight he did... but how is that relevant to his previous two fights against brock which he fought at 240ish... I personally believe that mir will be cutting weight for the interim, and hopefully if all goes well when brock comes back he may be just as big as brock... And hopefully he gives him the ass whooping he deserves

i remember at 104 his weight was brought up and im pretty sure it got up there cause of he wasnt trainning cause of the surgery and he just fought at lhw... but anyways both statements are irrelevant? because at the end of the day brock is cutting weight and fighting fighters at their natural weight and they still dont weigh in any where near the maximum, to me thats a clear cut advantage and i already pursuaded the original person i was arguing with?


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Seriously Thiago Alves? Wow, what are they putting in the Koolaid over at Sherdog?
> 
> 
> I can think of 10 fighters at least that deserved that spot before Alves...
> ...


Really? I disagree with all of these fighters. Not to say I agree with Alves being on the list; total BS. 

The ones that stand out the most are Manhoef and Shields. I cannot imagine them being anywhere near a top p4p list.

Manhoef especially is a straight k-1 kickboxer who has had horrible outings at mma. Considering he is lacking a ground game entirely I don't understand how you could dream of putting him on a top 10 p4p list.

Shields has some really bad standup and in my opinion has not proved himself at all. I think Hendserson is gonna walk right through Shields and put him in his place.

The rest of the guys I quoted have either lost too many times to same-level competition (Werdum) or havn't beaten anyone worth mentioning (Lombard, Alvgerez ).

Not saying they arn't more deserving than Alves, but guys that you listed like Hendo, for example, are miles ahead of Shields and Manhoed in terms of MMA p4p imo.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

wakeboy said:


> i know his last fight he did... but how is that relevant to his previous two fights against brock which he fought at 240ish... I personally believe that mir will be cutting weight for the interim, and hopefully if all goes well when brock comes back he may be just as big as brock... And hopefully he gives him the ass whooping he deserves
> 
> i remember at 104 his weight was brought up and im pretty sure it got up there cause of he wasnt trainning cause of the surgery and he just fought at lhw... but anyways both statements are irrelevant? because at the end of the day brock is cutting weight and fighting fighters at their natural weight and they still dont weigh in any where near the maximum, to me thats a clear cut advantage and i already pursuaded the original person i was arguing with?


 
Yeah if were talkin Mir I believe his last three in order were 225 245 and 264.5.......I hope he puts it on Brock too....:thumbsup:


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

coldcall420 said:


> First off look at the source...
> 
> Thiago Alves absolutely does not belong on that list....PERIOD!!!!


Neither does Fitch. I /facepalmed lol




AK-Bronco said:


> Your right GSP had no size/strength advantage over BJ and Matt Serra.
> .


Ah you mean the two lightweights he fought. Yeah....




> Same with Andy Silva, his size, strength, and reach advantage has nothing to do with his wins at 185


'Cause Rich Franklin and Dan Henderson are *tiny* middleweights.

sry DP


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## AK-Bronco (Feb 25, 2008)

Ape City said:


> Ah you mean the two lightweights he fought. Yeah....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glad you got the sarcasm.

Franklin and Henderson are big for 185, they should fight at LHW.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

AK-Bronco said:


> Glad you got the sarcasm.
> .


lol I definitely did not. Had a couple drinks before I read your post and was like "wtf, is he serious?". Sorry bro


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Ape City said:


> Manhoef especially is a straight k-1 kickboxer who has had horrible outings at mma. Considering he is lacking a ground game entirely I don't understand how you could dream of putting him on a top 10 p4p list.


Manhoef jumps weight divisions like hurdles and performs great damn near every time he steps in the cage. He's a natural 185er who just knocked out Mark Hunt at Heavyweight. That is a P4P fighter.

22 of his 23 wins are by (T)KO... That is completly insane especially when moving between divisions like that. His KO of Sakuraba was absolutly brutal. I think he'd steamroll a hell of alot of UFC fighters in a few of those divisions. 



> Shields has some really bad standup and in my opinion has not proved himself at all.


This is the standpoint that I agree with the least...

What more does Jake Shields have to do to prove himself?

He's defeated.....Yushin Okami, Paul Daley, Sakurai, Carlos Condit, Jason Mayhem Miller, Nick Thompson, Robbie Lawler....The guy defeated Yushin Okami and Carlos Condit on the same night 45 minutes from eachother.

He hasn't lost a fight in over 5 years and has held a championship title in damn near every organization he's ever competed in.... Pancrease, Shooto, EliteXC, Rumble On The Rock and Strikeforce.

8 of his last 9 fights he's finished by the second round.



> The rest of the guys I quoted have either lost too many times to same-level competition (Werdum)


Werdum has less losses on his record than Mike Brown, B.J. Penn and Thiago Alves all who made that list. But what stands out is the fact that Fabricio Werdum has finished fighters like..Brandon Vera, Gabriel Gonzaga, Alastair Overeem, and Aleks Emelienenko. And he's finished Gonzaga twice.

He's only been finished one time. That was when he walked right into an uppercut thrown by JDS. Werdum is probably one the most underrated fighters in the game at this point.



> or havn't beaten anyone worth mentioning (Lombard, Alvgerez ).


Eddie just ripped two tournaments up back to back. Beating anyone worth mentioning? He defeated Joachim Hellboy Hansen and Kawajiri. And that was after he knocked out Dida in the first round. He ran through some stiff competition and crafty vets in Bodog and Bellator as well.

His only two losses on his record were recorded at WW which would make him an undefeated LW.

Hector Lombard I'll give you. He hasn't defeated any top 10ers but he's crushing every fighter he's facing right now. And he fought Mousasi to a decision which is pretty damn impressive considering Mousasi has finsihed 25 out of his 27 victems by TKO or submission.



> Not saying they arn't more deserving than Alves, but guys that you listed like Hendo, for example, are miles ahead of Shields and Manhoed in terms of MMA p4p imo.


Hendo is ahead of Shields. But not by much IMO.


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## Belfort (Aug 4, 2009)

1. Anderson Silva
2. Fedor Emelianenko
3. Georges St. Pierre
4. B.J. Penn
5. Jose Aldo
6. Lyoto Machida
7. Mike Thomas Brown
8. Shogun Rua
9. Brian Bowles
10. Gegard Mousasi

Something like that - of couse everyones list will have some bias but Jon Fitch as no.7 was hilarious and as much as i love Thiago Alves i don't think he's top 10.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Manhoef jumps weight divisions like hurdles and performs great damn near every time he steps in the cage. He's a natural 185er who just knocked out Mark Hunt at Heavyweight. That is a P4P fighter.
> 
> 22 of his 23 wins are by (T)KO... That is completly insane especially when moving between divisions like that. His KO of Sakuraba was absolutly brutal. I think he'd steamroll a hell of alot of UFC fighters in a few of those divisions.
> He just jump weight divs, I have to give you that, and performs damn well when outsized. IMO that doesn't change the fact most top 10 UFC/strikeforce fighters in the divs he fights at could asily take him down and work gnp or sub him.


He beat Mark Hunt, but Hunt has lost his last 5 mma fights in a row.

Before Hunt he lost to Mousasi in the manner most mma fighters would finish him (on the ground).

He beat sakuraba, but he has hardly bean relevant lately in terms of top 10 mma fighters. 

Before that his mma wins are over people who are far from being top 10: Dae Won Kim, Yosuke Nishijima ,and Fabio Silva.

He fights a lot of amazing k-1 competition but to give him a top 10 p4p spot on an mma list is a bit odd imo considering he has never beat anyone in the top 10 (mark hunt hasn't been relevant since 2004-2006 in mma).




> This is the standpoint that I agree with the least...
> 
> What more does Jake Shields have to do to prove himself?
> 
> ...


I personally just don't think he is well rounded enough to be deserving of such a ranking. 

I will admit, though: of all the guys I do not think should be on the list you mentioned he is the most deserving.

I just don't think his wrestling or bjj is good enough to hang with other guys despite weight (ie the p4p ranking). 

I do have a hard time defending this; most of it is just that I don't believe Shields is as good as he seems.


> Werdum has less losses on his record than Mike Brown, B.J. Penn and Thiago Alves all who made that list. But what stands out is the fact that Fabricio Werdum has finished fighters like..Brandon Vera, Gabriel Gonzaga, Alastair Overeem, and Aleks Emelienenko. And he's finished Gonzaga twice.
> 
> He's only been finished one time. That was when he walked right into an uppercut thrown by JDS. Werdum is probably one the most underrated fighters in the game at this point.


What stands out for me is the division he is fighting in. While Bj may have more losses the level of skill possessed by their respective opponents I feel is the difference.

Werdum has a very impressive resume; that cannot be denied. The problem for me is he really is not a dominant fighter. He has some very good wins but he has some pretty bad losses, too. 

You would think the guy thay disposes of Silva, Vera, Gonzagax2, Overeem, and A. Emelianenko would make short work or at least be victorious over Arlovski and JDS. But he isn't, because the HW division is not as deep as one would hope, and a lot of these guys are on a closer skill level than in other divisions.

I just don't think he is that much better than a lot of other top 10 HW fighters, and I think most HW fighters on the whole are less skilled than some of their lighter counterparts, making them less deserving of p4p. 

It isn't because theya re heavy, there are just less of them as a pool.

I don't think Alves or Brown should be on the list so I won't defend their win/loss ratios.



> Eddie just ripped two tournaments up back to back. Beating anyone worth mentioning? He defeated Joachim Hellboy Hansen and Kawajiri. And that was after he knocked out Dida in the first round. He ran through some stiff competition and crafty vets in Bodog and Bellator as well.
> 
> His only two losses on his record were recorded at WW which would make him an undefeated LW.


But who has he really beaten that would be considered top 10?

Kawajiri is big for sure, but a lot of the other guys I don't even know. Maybe it is my ignorance of overseas 155ers.


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## SkanKD00DLE (Dec 27, 2009)

No gegard? No brock? No aoki? An abysmall list.


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## mtt_c (Jun 15, 2008)

I think shields and mousassi should be on the list as they've beaten the talent placed in front of them. Sure Shield's standup game sucks but that's why he plays to his wrestling strength...he's beating bigger guys right now so I think he deserves some legit top10 consideration.

Gegard has a decent standup and better ground game. He beats ass and does it convincingly. I don't get why UFC/WEC guys dominate this (even guys who aren't really in contention right now).


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

mtt_c said:


> I don't get why UFC/WEC guys dominate this (even guys who aren't really in contention right now).


Really? Would you deny that the UFC and WEC have by far the majority of talented fighters at 170 and above?


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Yep, these rankings suck. God so many things wrong with them...


"Silva is clearly the #1 because he had a poor performance and one good performance"

"GSP is #2 because he got really great sponsorships this year"

"Fedor is #3 because he KO'd an undefeated guy with 10 T/KO's"

etc... :confused05:


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## urbanator (Oct 15, 2006)

What about Gegard Mousasi? That guy is a silent killer. If you have never watched him before, it would be hard to believe how much success he has.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Ape City said:


> He beat Mark Hunt, but Hunt has lost his last 5 mma fights in a row.


Yes Hunt has lost five in a row...he just lost to Manhoef, Mousasi, Overeem, Fedor and Barnett.

That has to be the fiercest list of back to back compeditors I have ever seen.

And on that note Melvin jumped weight divisions to take that fight. 




Ape City said:


> He beat sakuraba, but he has hardly bean relevant lately in terms of top 10 mma fighters.


It's the same as when a fighter beats Randy Couture. Saku is an old lion who's had absolute wars and is still capable of taking a fighter out, he's still very dangerous.

We're talking about a guy who has disposed of damn near every Gracie fighter in the game as well as, Vitor Belfort, Carlos Newton, Kevin Randalman, and Rampage



Ape City said:


> He fights a lot of amazing k-1 competition but to give him a top 10 p4p spot on an mma list is a bit odd imo considering he has never beat anyone in the top 10 (mark hunt hasn't been relevant since 2004-2006 in mma).


I can see the point you're trying to make. The point that I'm making is that I believe him by what he's shown to be a more capable P4P fighter than Thiago Alves as I stated with my initial post.




Ape City said:


> I personally just don't think he is well rounded enough to be deserving of such a ranking.


We're talking Shields here now...

You're not the only one who has this opinion here, Sheilds has alot of naysayers, probably the most of any deserving fighter when it comes to world rankings.

However beleive this.....the first guy to take Jake Shields out, if his record is impressive before hand is going to skyrocket through the world rankings lists...

The unfortunate case being that Jake has never been recoginzed for his victories. He's killed some stiff competition throughout his entire carreer. I remember he fought Misaki to a Draw in Japan when Misaki was at the peak of his carreer. 



Ape City said:


> I will admit, though: of all the guys I do not think should be on the list you mentioned he is the most deserving.


I'm glad you see it that way. I beleive that just because we don't like fighters specific skillsets and the way they utilze their tools should never take away from their MMA acheivments.



Ape City said:


> I just don't think his wrestling or bjj is good enough to hang with other guys despite weight (ie the p4p ranking).


*Here is Jake defeating John Fitch in a BJJ match...*






*Here Jake defeats Diego Sanchez in Abu Dahbi World Championships.. *







*And here he defeats 3 time BJJ world champion Vinny Magalhaes in a BJJ match...*






Jake is deceptivly lethal with his ground game so I can't agree with you on any level that his ground expertise is not world class.



Ape City said:


> I do have a hard time defending this; most of it is just that I don't believe Shields is as good as he seems.


You know what the kicker is? After all these years of him dispatching excellent fighters and winning titles; if he loses any time soon the entire forum will scream "see I told you he was overrated"!!




Ape City said:


> What stands out for me is the division he is fighting in. While Bj may have more losses the level of skill possessed by their respective opponents I feel is the difference.


We're talking Fabricio here...

If such is the case it isn't by much..



Ape City said:


> Werdum has a very impressive resume; that cannot be denied. The problem for me is he really is not a dominant fighter. He has some very good wins but he has some pretty bad losses, too.


All of his losses except one was decision. I'd have to say that a few of those guys on that list...Fitch, B.J., Thiago have losses in which they were dominated in a much more embarrassing manner than a flash K.O. 



Ape City said:


> You would think the guy thay disposes of Silva, Vera, Gonzagax2, Overeem, and A. Emelianenko would make short work or at least be victorious over Arlovski and JDS.


Arlovski at one point in time was a consensus top 5 world ranked HW for a reason.

JDS is still undefeated in the UFC and is trained by Anderson Silva and the Noguiera Brothers. He's possibly the future of that division.




Ape City said:


> I don't think Alves or Brown should be on the list so I won't defend their win/loss ratios.


I completly agree with you here.



Ape City said:


> But who has he really beaten that would be considered top 10?
> 
> Kawajiri is big for sure, but a lot of the other guys I don't even know. Maybe it is my ignorance of overseas 155ers.


We're talking Eddie Alvarez here...

No offense but it is lack of knowledge on Japanese LWs many just look at their records and see losses but their losses are to eachother. The best are defeating the best over there because Japan will throw out trilogy fights and or match up the best against eachother at all times. 

At the time Eddie ran through DREAM the best in the LW game in Japan were Shinya Aoki, Joachim Hansen, Kawajiri, Andre Dida Amade, and J.Z. Calvancante.

He disposed of Amade, Hansen and Kawajiri back to back. After which the doctors would not let him compete in his final fight due to a cut. His fight with Hansen won fight of the year on alot of forums. You tube it, it was pretty exciting. Currently he's won 9 of his last 10. 

IMO many of the DREAM fighters that I named would clean out the UFCs LW division and only have problems with Penn, Edgar, and Sanchez.

All in all, I still beleive the 10 fighters that I named to be much more deserving than Thago Alves on that list anyday of the week.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

I would have Shields and Mousasi in there instead of MTB, Alves or Fitch. 

Fitch just scraping decision wins against barely unknown opponents just doesnt deserve to be top 10 p4p IMO, but on the other hand he is 11-1 in the UFC and has some big name wins and his only defeat is to GSP, you cant really argue his spot too much.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

DJ Syko said:


> Fitch just scraping decision wins against barely unknown opponents just doesnt deserve to be top 10 p4p IMO, but on the other hand he is 11-1 in the UFC and has some big name wins and his only defeat is to GSP, you cant really argue his spot too much.


IMO P4P is sacred and Fitch doesn't make the cut. It's about performance and skill, not record.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> IMO P4P is sacred and Fitch doesn't make the cut. It's about performance and skill, not record.


actually its a mixture of all 3, because if it was just on Performance and skill you could argue that guys like King Mo and Zaromskis should be top 10 p4p, because there performances and skill have been outstanding recently. Record's are just as important as there performances and skill if not more.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Yes Hunt has lost five in a row...he just lost to Manhoef, Mousasi, Overeem, Fedor and Barnett.
> 
> That has to be the fiercest list of back to back compeditors I have ever seen.
> 
> ...


But since I also don't think Alves deserves to be on the list I can agree with that and still maintain my point. That Manhoef, along with Alves, has no business near an MMA P4P list. Now a kickboxing p4p list, Manhoef has a HUGE arguement.




> We're talking Shields here now...
> 
> You're not the only one who has this opinion here, Sheilds has alot of naysayers, probably the most of any deserving fighter when it comes to world rankings.
> 
> ...


I will point out that the first two videos are against smaller opponenets, which goes along with what I said; Shield would not be able to impose his will if size was taken away from him. 

Despite that I concede again that he is by far the most deserving to be on a p4p, moreso than Alves imo.

That being said, I personally would rather see him take a few fights against a couple guys like Marquardt or Maia and see what happens before I go adding him to a p4p list.



> Jake is deceptivly lethal with his ground game so I can't agree with you on any level that his ground expertise is not world class.


Not saying it isn't world class, just not sure if it is good enough to defy divisions and earn a p4p spot.



> You know what the kicker is? After all these years of him dispatching excellent fighters and winning titles; if he loses any time soon the entire forum will scream "see I told you he was overrated"!!


Ah 'tis the nature of being either very good or overrated. No matter which the case, you are gaurenteed to be called both. 

It almost always a case of both. People were screaming at each other over Machida, now he seems beatable. 




> All of his losses except one was decision. I'd have to say that a few of those guys on that list...Fitch, B.J., Thiago have losses in which they were dominated in a much more embarrassing manner than a flash K.O.


Well my p4p doesn't have Fitch or Thiago. Bj is hard to defend sometimes. But when I need to defend BJs p4p status I always just point to the quality of competition he foguht along with the moving up of weight classes.

That's my story and i'm sticking to it.





> Arlovski at one point in time was a consensus top 5 world ranked HW for a reason.


Damn skippy he was!!! Damn I wish he would make a comeback  Aw crap did I just disprove my own point?



> JDS is still undefeated in the UFC and is trained by Anderson Silva and the Noguiera Brothers. He's possibly the future of that division.


Very true. He does kick large amounts of ass.




> All in all, I still beleive the 10 fighters that I named to be much more deserving than Thago Alves on that list anyday of the week.


Well I may argue or some minor semantics over a few of them, but since I don't think Alves deserves that spot either I suppose the point is moot.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

DJ Syko said:


> actually its a mixture of all 3, because if it was just on Performance and skill you could argue that guys like King Mo and Zaromskis should be top 10 p4p, because there performances and skill have been outstanding recently. Record's are just as important as there performances and skill if not more.


True, agreed with that, who you've faced matters. But I meant more like, GSP's two losses don't reflect on his P4P status.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> True, agreed with that, who you've faced matters. But I meant more like, GSP's two losses don't reflect on his P4P status.


I think it doesn't reflect on his status because he did beat both of them in there remacht! But BJ Penn is also a great example for this, he is also still considered to be in the top 3-5 p4p list by many ppl even through he had clear defeats and his fight record isn't that impressive too.


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## js1316 (Jun 17, 2007)

I agree with the top 5 fighters, just not the placement of them. After the top 5, that list just goes downhill. Thiago Alves? Really? No. Here's what mine would look like:

Anderson Silva
Fedor Emelianenko
Lyoto Machida
GSP
BJ Penn
Jose Aldo
Gegard Mousasi
Mauricio Shogun
Jon Fitch
Nick Diaz


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

I disagree with every list that has Machida, but not Shogun. :thumb02:


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> I disagree with every list that has Machida, but not Shogun. :thumb02:


So you mean Machida shouldn't be in the top 10? or do you mean the top 5 :confused02:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> I disagree with every list that has Machida, but not Shogun. :thumb02:





BobbyCooper said:


> So you mean Machida shouldn't be in the top 10? or do you mean the top 5 :confused02:


Are these top five fighters or top of each weight class cuz Machida def belongs there with Shogun behind him......uh yeah Shogun lost 1,2,3......PERIOD!!


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> Are these top five fighters or top of each weight class cuz Machida def belongs there with Shogun behind him......uh yeah Shogun lost 1,2,3......PERIOD!!



Have you seen the fight metric? Shogun landed 2-1 on Machida and took less damage, he also controlled the center of the cage the entire fight and was a lot more fresh in the later rounds. He also never had to switch stance due to damage inflicted unlike Machida. :thumbsup:


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> Are these top five fighters or top of each weight class cuz Machida def belongs there with Shogun behind him......uh yeah Shogun lost 1,2,3......PERIOD!!


This^^ There is nothing to argue anymore!

CC has spoken... PERIOD!!! :thumb02:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> Have you seen the fight metric? Shogun landed 2-1 on Machida and took less damage, he also controlled the center of the cage the entire fight and was a lot more fresh in the later rounds. He also never had to switch stance due to damage inflicted unlike Machida. :thumbsup:


 
Search Michael Carson's posts on the pre/post thread and also search sookoojoo's breakdown that fight metric breakdown has holes in it and they are properly exposed...by both named above....

Machida switches stance anyway he fights from traditional and southpaw, Machida took those kicks to land the counters that I guess me MC, Bobby Cooper and the judges saw....

4th and 5th you can give to Shogun all day IMO he should have won that fight and had Machida right where he needed him to finish him...he just didnt....thats Shoguns loss...


EDIT: Khovs...lol just look at your sig we do agree.....


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## Indestructibl3 (Apr 2, 2009)

Fitch and Alves I don't believe belong on that list. I would've liked to see Mousasi and Shields somewhere at the end of that list.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Indestructibl3 said:


> Fitch and Alves I don't believe belong on that list. I would've liked to see Mousasi and Shields somewhere at the end of that list.


Alot of people seem fond of Alves you think he belongs on there, just curious??:confused02:


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> EDIT: Khovs...lol just look at your sig we do agree.....




Lmfao. Got me there. 



Alves and Fitch definitely don't belong on this list. And Mousasi certainly should be. The dude is much smaller than most people he faces, and he just moved up a weight class with ease, and he's fought at least one heavyweight and ran through him. Hell, for how well he survived Fedor vs Mousasi exhibition match alone he should be top 5 P4P. :thumb02:


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I think Fitch has a right to be in there! Alves definitely not.
Fitch fought the best of the best Welterweights in the UFC and did beat all of them except one the champion. And GSP is already considered to be the best WW ever, so a loss to him shouldn't really smaller his status as one of the best, even through his fights are boring and weren't really good in the past. 

But I would put Mousasi ahead of him too!


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

BobbyCooper said:


> So you mean Machida shouldn't be in the top 10? or do you mean the top 5 :confused02:


Nah, what I'm saying is that if Machida is at #4 then Shogun should at least be #3.  Let's say at least #5 for the guys who think that Machida somehow won that fight.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Nah, what I'm saying is that if Machida is at #4 then Shogun should at least be #3.  Let's say at least #5 for the guys who think that Machida somehow won that fight.


Oh alright I misconceived that a littel bit  I was kinda shocked in the first place^^


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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> Nah, what I'm saying is that if Machida is at #4 then Shogun should at least be #3.  Let's say at least #5 for the guys who think that Machida somehow won that fight.


Lol Machida won that fight 3-2, and has a much better record lately than Shogun.

I'd Still rank shogun number 2 at LHW and i would put him in the P4P list over Fitch and Alvez.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

The second half of the list is very...regrettable. I completely agree with the first five, I had actually forgotten Fedor's record he should probably be above St Pierre IMO. But outside of slight variations to their order 1-5 is crisp. 6-10 is tragic. No Rua, no Lesner...no anyone who gets me excited at all. (Maybe not Rua, his record isn't very good even beside the whole Machida incident--I'm with Machida on that one)


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Ape City said:


> But since I also don't think Alves deserves to be on the list I can agree with that and still maintain my point. That Manhoef, along with Alves, has no business near an MMA P4P list. Now a kickboxing p4p list, Manhoef has a HUGE arguement.


I'll leave that as is since my argument here is that my list of fighters were more deserving than Alves. Kind of puts us in agreement here.




Ape City said:


> I will point out that the first two videos are against smaller opponenets,


This is inaccurate, Jake Shields is a natural Welterweight. He fights at WW. The only reason he has moved up to Middleweight his last 2 fights is because he's cleaned out the WW division in the United States outside of the UFC and anyone else he faced at WW he was being scoffed at.

To challenge himself and gain more credible victories he has decided to make a move to a much more stacked division. John Fitch is a natural WW. Diego Sanchez won TUF at MW and has competed at Welterweight for many times in his carreer.

I can't agree with you here.




Ape City said:


> which goes along with what I said; Shield would not be able to impose his will if size was taken away from him.


Vinny Magalhaes cuts from 220 to make 205. He's alot bigger than Jake and a BJJ world champion. Didn't seem to affect him at all there.

Also his fight with Robbie Lawler is a prime example. Robbie has had 8 straight fights at MW and this was Jakes first move to Middleweight since the ROTR tournament about 4 years ago. Jake was able to submit Robbie in the first round. 

That is a pound for pound fighter. Take into consideration the fact that before Robbies loss to Jake Robbie was on many lists as a top 5 MW. 



Ape City said:


> Despite that I concede again that he is by far the most deserving to be on a p4p, moreso than Alves imo.


This is understandable, he's well deserving. Much more so than Thiago anyday.



Ape City said:


> That being said, I personally would rather see him take a few fights against a couple guys like Marquardt or Maia and see what happens before I go adding him to a p4p list.


A win over Maia wouldn't get him anywhere in the rankings, this is peoples biggest argument. They will say that Maia isn't ranked so why should it boost his ranking. I've had this discussion many times with many critics.

I personally would like to see him matched up against Josh Koscheck and yes Nate Marquardt.

I'm interested to see if Paul Daley is able to put Hazlett away as easily as he did Kampmann. Jake holds a submission victory over Paul Daley and seeing Daley dispose of UFC fighters in that manner only concretes my beleif in the fact that Jake is beating legitimatly destructive fighters. Using their weakness against them or not. 





Ape City said:


> Not saying it isn't world class, just not sure if it is good enough to defy divisions and earn a p4p spot.


He's held MW and WW gold. And competed in tournaments with huge names in which he won. Anderson was in that ROTR torunament but lost to Yushin because of an upkick. Jake won that torunament. 

Holding gold in different weight divisions is the biggest proof of a P4P fighter IMO.



Ape City said:


> Ah 'tis the nature of being either very good or overrated. No matter which the case, you are gaurenteed to be called both.


And I truley beleive Sheilds to be the former. You can only call someone lucky for so long. He's killing off world class fighers on a regular basis. 



Ape City said:


> But when I need to defend BJs p4p status I always just point to *the quality of competition he foguht along with the moving up of weight classes*.


I have bolded the point that I'm trying to make here. You can't give B.J. credit for movin up in weight classes without giving the same credit to Jake.





Ape City said:


> That's my story and i'm sticking to it.


I won't tell no one bout the holes I poked in your argument..





Ape City said:


> Damn skippy he was!!! Damn I wish he would make a comeback  Aw crap did I just disprove my own point?


Yeah, but I agree. And I miss the original Pittbull, dude was a beast and a hell of a compeditor, I really hope he has one more solid win streak in him..... 





Ape City said:


> Very true. He does kick large amounts of ass.


This is why I won't take anything away from any fighter who loses to him at the moment. Worse thing is if you saw that fight it wasn't even a war... 

Fabricio ducked his head down and stepped right into an uppercut. It was a nightmare scenerio for a flash KO in the first round


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