# Aldo vs BJ Penn?



## Sauce1 (Aug 5, 2009)

I just finished watching the Faber and Aldo fight and all I got to say is "wow". I knew that Also was/is a special type of fighter but his performance really amazed me. I honestly believe the reason he did not finish Faber was because he wanted to show mercy. He just added me as a huge fan. Total domination.

With that being said, how do you guys think Penn vs Aldo fight would match up? Before this fight, I would have shown my complete bias for Penn. However, I think Aldo would have a higher chance then I previously would have expected. I know Penn is coming off of a loss but I believe his last performance was not a reflection of his abilities. So thoughts?


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Lets not let the whole BJ loss to Edgar and Aldo's performance tonight trick you. Faber has trained with Penn and there are video's of them sparing where BJ absolutely manhandles Faber like he is a small child.


----------



## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

If Aldo puts the weight on properly he could be a force at LW. 

His striking is some of the best in MMA and he is a black belt in BJJ, which he has used little of as of yet. 

I think he could be the next great fighter at LW.


----------



## Sauce1 (Aug 5, 2009)

I agree that BJ's boxing is one of, if not the best in MMA. However,how many fighters has bj faced, which the type of versatility and kicks like Aldo? His ability to mix it up is just sick. I'm still leaning towards BJ pulling it out but it would not surprise me if Aldo made it super competitive. And this is hard for me to type because I am a HUGE BJ Penn fan. 





Toxic said:


> Lets not let the whole BJ loss to Edgar and Aldo's performance tonight trick you. Faber has trained with Penn and there are video's of them sparing where BJ absolutely manhandles Faber like he is a small child.


----------



## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Lets not let the whole BJ loss to Edgar and Aldo's performance tonight trick you. Faber has trained with Penn and there are video's of them sparing where BJ absolutely manhandles Faber like he is a small child.



Keep in mind BJ JUST loss to a natural 145lb'er who is leagues less talented and less suited to defeat Penn.


The Aldo that showed up tonight would win 50-45 against the Penn that showed up for Frankie, period. The Penn that showed up for Diego... could be a war. But Penn isn't outstriking Aldo and he sure as hell isn't submitting him. Keep in mind he outwrestled Mike Brown.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> Keep in mind BJ JUST loss to a natural 145lb'er who is leagues less talented and less suited to defeat Penn.
> 
> 
> The Aldo that showed up tonight would win 50-45 against the Penn that showed up for Frankie, period. The Penn that showed up for Diego... could be a war. But Penn isn't outstriking Aldo and he sure as hell isn't submitting him. Keep in mind he outwrestled Mike Brown.


You think BJ wouldn't be prepared for those kicks (especially after having watched this)? And yeah BJ could probably submit Aldo. BJ was a world champion black belt who is more credentialed than Aldo is very accomplished but not at the black belt level. Penn would outstrike Aldo and out grapple him, Aldo is young give him time I actually think Aldo is like a young BJ Penn, you can tell he is a prodigy but he isn't on Penn's level, yet...


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

I'd favor Aldo at this particular time. Bare in mind this fight would likely be very tactical with little fireworks and I see Aldo winning a clear decision.

Jose Aldo in his first fights showed phenomenal foot and hand speed and good power as well. His fight with Mike Brown was even more impressive as it showed his more than adequate strengh and takedown defense. Tonight however, I saw what I believe seperates Aldo from the rest, his incredibly calculated gameplans and cool temperament, something BJ has always lacked. Aldo used a brilliant, textbook Muay Thai chop down strategy against an opponent who was raving about his own footspeed and quickness. An expert display of gameplanning. Not only that, but he barely got hit, completely controlling range, stopping every takedown attempt before it even started(as opposed to BJ allowing himself to be pressed against the cage repeatedly) and picking him apart. His top control has shown to be good, and he's got great BJJ postioning. Not that Aldo's gameplan would include fighting BJ on the ground.

BJ in his current form is like a Rashad Evans who's fallen in love with his boxing. He's a ground whiz, and has shown to easily dispatch people if he bothers to get them down. In his last several fights, however, he's played the role of a flat footed counterstriker. His speed and elusiveness allowed this strategy to work against many fighters, as well as his technical proficiency, however Edgar proved to be a bit too fast than BJ was used to and used movement to essentially outbox BJ.

In terms of the fight, I believe BJ would assume the role of the counterboxer with Aldo using a similar gameplan of the chop down strategy. BJ relies heavily on his powerful and dextrous legs, however his stance and style allow success for the leg kicks as seen in the Sherk fight. Unfortunately for him, Aldo is a much more technical, and more powerful striker and will have much more effect than Sherk. Not only that, but BJ has to worry about being blitzed by unprecedented hand speed. 

I think Aldo takes a decision as the leg kicks take their toll, and Aldo is able to outwork Penn for the nod.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BJ looked out of shape and showed virtually no foot work and was obviously out of shape against Edgar and still out pointed him. Aldo managed to stop the takedown attempts because he chopped the leg out and despite what Mike Goldberg says Faber's wrestling is not that good, he is nowhere near a Sean Sherk or Matt Hughes. BJ is a more technical striker by miles than anybody Aldo has faced, he hits harder has a better chin, hell BJ is miles ahead of anybody Aldo has fought in every single aspect. The BJ that fought KenFlo or Diego would maul Aldo. Faber struggled to find his range tonight but BJ has great accuracy and has never had a problem finding his range, he doesn't even feel his opponents out he is just that good.


----------



## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

BJ's standing leg would get so fuked up...he leaves it out the like a boxer.


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Doubtful. BJ Penn hasn't fought a striker on Aldo's level. And while Aldo has not fought anyone of the talent of BJ, he certainly hasn't managed to be outstruck by a smaller wrestler. 

BJ's stance and style have shown in the Sherk and Edgar fihts to be susceptible to leg kicks and this coming from wrestlers. BJ looked great against Diego and Florian because they are tailored made for him, Kenny came in with a horrible gameplan and basically tried to take BJ down for 4 rounds without chopping legs or doing anything. BJ did almost no damage to Kenny in that fight, and only managed to outpoint him before subbing him. Kenny was overmatched. Diego is a wannabe striker who tried to attack like a beserker and failed miserably.

Aldo is not any of these guys. Those guys have neither the skills nor the temperment of true strikers. Not only that, I'd say even BJ doesn't have the tempermet of a striker, alhough he is gifted. 

Aldo has the perfect style to outpoint BJ's relatively stationary counterboxing style, and BJ just doesn't have the gameplanning or the mental game down to beat an improving superstar like Aldo.

Also, BJ is not a better wrestler than Mike Brown.


----------



## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Lol Toxic, you need to sit this one out as you're clearly clouded miserably with BJ Penn bias.


Aldo trains with team blackhouse and just walked through Cub, Brown, and Faber FFS. BJ just got humiliated by GSP and UD'd by Frankie Edgar. Personally I think Faber would beat Edgar 8/10.


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

khoveraki said:


> Lol Toxic, you need to sit this one out as you're clearly clouded miserably with BJ Penn bias.
> 
> 
> Aldo trains with team blackhouse and just walked through Cub, Brown, and Faber FFS. BJ just got humiliated by GSP and UD'd by Frankie Edgar. Personally I think Faber would beat Edgar 8/10.


What's your source on him training with BH? I believe you but I didn't know that. Honestly, it would explain his advanced temperment that the true elites like Machida and Silva show. The fight really highlighted he cerebral aspect of his game that was undoubtedly helped to develop by those striking genius at Blackhouse .


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Lol, it's always so amusing the amount of hype that shows up after someone wins.


----------



## punchbag (Mar 1, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Lets not let the whole BJ loss to Edgar and Aldo's performance tonight trick you. Faber has trained with Penn and there are video's of them sparing where BJ absolutely manhandles Faber like he is a small child.


IMO, Penn had a bad performance against Frankie, and Frankie had his best ever and got the win, which I felt should have "just" gone BJ's way.
All of a sudden BJ's stock has fallen, I think his next fight will be a totally different story, but lets see.


----------



## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

TLC said:


> What's your source on him training with BH? I believe you but I didn't know that. Honestly, it would explain his advanced temperment that the true elites like Machida and Silva show. The fight really highlighted he cerebral aspect of his game that was undoubtedly helped to develop by those striking genius at Blackhouse .



http://www.blackhousemma.com/fighters

Down near the bottom next to JDS and Lyoto. :thumbsup:


Aldo has been with blackhouse for sometime now and Ed Soares appeared a few times on the PPV hype show.


----------



## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

Michael Carson said:


> Lol, it's always so amusing the amount of hype that shows up after someone wins.


agreed


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Michael Carson said:


> Lol, it's always so amusing the amount of hype that shows up after someone wins.


Why is it hype? Aldo was fighter of the year in many peoples eyes, is a top 5 p4p fighter, and has dominated the two best 145ers in the world. BJ has looked mediocre and has shown holes at various points in his career, culminating in an embarrasing loss against Edgar. 

I don't see how it is hype, especially considering Aldo's track record. If anything, BJ's flatfooted counterboxing is overhyped. Outside of the non-talented(in striking), weight drained Diego Sanchez, BJ doesn't go out and blitz guys and make you think that he's a super dangerous striker. He's more methodical and less convincing than Aldo.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

TLC said:


> Why is it hype? Aldo was fighter of the year in many peoples eyes, is a top 5 p4p fighter, and has dominated the two best 145ers in the world. BJ has looked mediocre and has shown holes at various points in his career, culminating in an embarrasing loss against Edgar.
> 
> I don't see how it is hype, especially considering Aldo's track record. If anything, BJ's flatfooted counterboxing is overhyped. Outside of the non-talented(in striking), weight drained Diego Sanchez, BJ doesn't go out and blitz guys and make you think that he's a super dangerous striker. He's more methodical and less convincing than Aldo.


It's hype because Aldo is a weight class below, his ground game isn't nearly as impressive as Penn, he won't be able to rock Penn at all, Penn's boxing is actaully very good, did you watch his fight against Florian and Sanchez? His boxing was very crisp and he was very accurate. Penn had a bad night against Frankie, it happens. The majority of people agree that Penn looked off that night.

Aldo beating Penn is just hype, he just got off a solid win.

He beat Cub (woo hoo), Brown (who Manny just destoryed, MANNY), and then Faber, who's best win is.. Cruz, a guy a weight class below him, and went 5 rounds with Pulver.

Aldo's record really isn't that amazing, and the hype machine is at full force.

He could very well turn out to be one of the best, but right now it's all hype, especially when you're talking about him fighting arguably the greatest LW (a weight class above him) of all time.


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Michael Carson said:


> It's hype because Aldo is a weight class below, his ground game isn't nearly as impressive as Penn, he won't be able to rock Penn at all, Penn's boxing is actaully very good, did you watch his fight against Florian and Sanchez? His boxing was very crisp and he was very accurate. Penn had a bad night against Frankie, it happens. The majority of people agree that Penn looked off that night.
> 
> Aldo beating Penn is just hype, he just got off a solid win.
> 
> ...


Ah, the old downplaying wins strategy. That's petty and easy to do. Ooh look at Penn he beat Florian who's best win is a washed up Gomi, or oooh he beat a weight drained Diego who barely got by Clay Guida. Sherk? lol when's the last time he's won a fight?

Of course that's a poor argument but so was your downplaying of Aldo.

Also, the fact that BJ just has "an off night" at multiple stages of his career shows me that he's not at all as good as he is often touted. As for the Florian and Diego fights, the Florian fight didn't show great boxing at all, in fact he barely landed anything on Kenny. That fight was basically st a standstill until the takedown. As for Diego, well he's just a bad, reckless striker. That is not even debateable.

As for the weight, great fighters can easily move up in weight. Anderson, Hendo and Franklin have all done it despite the next weight class being 20lbs up as opposed to a measly 10, and despite all of his excuses, Penn has been successful at 170, as well as Sherk and Serra. Penn also to a fighter who's been called a natural featherweight, so it's not even a consideration that Aldo can't beat him because of a measly 10lbs.


----------



## BrianRClover (Jan 4, 2008)

I have to say, in a gereral response to most of the comments above. I don't beleive Aldo is overrhyped, or that he doesn't deserve the credit his is getting. Having said that, BJ would manhandle him pretty badly. I seem to be one of the few people that think this way, but size does make a huge difference these days. Not only is BJ considerably larger than Jose, I believe his skill set in pretty much every aspect is above Aldo... the one thing Aldo would have the edge in is speed.

BJ, TKO somewhere within the first two rounds, IMO.


----------



## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Frankie has a great chin, Aldo would get dropped by the shots Frankie ate and that wasn't a BJ at 100%. You can't compare fighting guys like Faber and Brown who would be and have been eaten alive at 155 to BJ Penn. Another thing to take into consideration is BJ threw down with Machida and has a legendary chin he isn't afraid of Aldo's flyweight power.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I don't know why Aldo should keep fighting in a devision, where he has zero competition. So I'm pretty sure, that he has to move up now!!!

An immediate Title fight with BJ/Edgar would be to early. He should fight somebody like Gomi before. 

But I am sure, he could challenge BJ already! BJ would win in my mind, but he could give him as much trouble as Frankie :thumbsup:

the leg kicks from Aldo could make a difference..


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

BJ's always been the type of guy that does better in Mythical Matchups than actually fighting in the octagon. It's allowed him to be highly touted despite showing up to what some believe is his full potential every so often. I never believed that, styles make fights, and who you fight is going to determine how you look in the cage.


----------



## Kreed (Feb 5, 2007)

now bj cant beat 145 pounders? :confused05:


----------



## TheNinja (Dec 10, 2008)

Aldo looked like a 145lb version of Anderson Silva, who wanted to fight. That dude is gonna mess some cats up at 155


----------



## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Kreed said:


> now bj cant beat 145 pounders? :confused05:


He just lost to a natural 145lber. Drops your stock a pretty good amount when we're now talking about the best 145lber in the world.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> He just lost to a natural 145lber. Drops your stock a pretty good amount when we're now talking about the best 145lber in the world.


First off, no he didn't. Don't let the fact Edgar got the decision fool you even those compustrike sites had BJ winning considerably. BJ looked like crap in that fight but he has been one of the top fighters in the world for almost a decade and you all write him off after one bad performance. The level of competition at 145 is a level below the UFC and to be honest I am not convinced that Aldo could beat Frankie Edgar. Also BJ is a small LW the bloated BJ that fought GSP only weighed in at 167. BJ could make FW himself. BJ would beat Aldo and it would not even be that close.


----------



## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

This thread is getting ridiculous ... people don't seem the see the MASSIVE talent gap between the LW and FW (and below) divisions in MMA. Has no one noticed that D level UFC LW dropouts like Gamburyan and Garcia become instant contenders at FW? What other weight class does this happen? Did Irvin suddenly become a contender by dropping to MW? Did Gouveia? Even Diego, Swick and Kampmann basically stayed at the same spot they were in their earlier divisions. 

The reason for this is that there is no FW or below division in the UFC, and unfortunately anything outside the UFC is generally a sideshow as far as mainstream perception goes. There just isn't the financial incentive to draw any real talent in these divisions. 

Yeah BJ just lost to a "natural" FW on an inconsistent night, but Frankie has never fought at FW. If the likes of Manny are trouncing the FW champs, I imagine Edgar would walk right through it... but why would any talent like that ever drop to a division that has barely any mass presence?

I think Aldo would do decent at LW because he is a cut above the rest of his weight class, but I still don't think he could hang with the likes of Penn. Aldo doesn't have the power to faze Penn and his MT which looks so great against his inferiors would get picked apart by Penn, if a good Penn shows up. If the BJ that fought Frankie shows up though ....


----------



## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

EDIT: double post


----------



## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Toxic said:


> First off, no he didn't. Don't let the fact Edgar got the decision fool you even those compustrike sites had BJ winning considerably. BJ looked like crap in that fight but he has been one of the top fighters in the world for almost a decade and you all write him off after one bad performance. The level of competition at 145 is a level below the UFC and to be honest I am not convinced that Aldo could beat Frankie Edgar. Also BJ is a small LW the bloated BJ that fought GSP only weighed in at 167. BJ could make FW himself. BJ would beat Aldo and it would not even be that close.



So? Sites like Compustrike had Randy Couture winning 1/3 (one site even had him winning 2/3) rounds versus Nogueira. Those sites are in their infancy.

And even so, BJ should have dominated Edgar. Not lose a close decision. Even a sick, dying BJ should have beat Edgar AT LEAST more convincingly than Maynard did, right? After all he's a "top P4P" and the "best LW in the world."



And BJ has fought at 190lbs before. Just because he was too lazy to add real muscle for his last 170lb fight (which he also got crushed in) doesn't mean anything. I'm sick of the weight debate for that fight anyway, Alves had 10-15lbs on GSP and GSP was INJURED and he still wrecked him, Penn has no excuse for how poorly he performed against GSP and Edgar and his fans seem to be having a rough time with it.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> I don't know why Aldo should keep fighting in a devision, where he has zero competition. So I'm pretty sure, that he has to move up now!!!
> 
> An immediate Title fight with BJ/Edgar would be to early. He should fight somebody like Gomi before.
> 
> ...


Why does he have no competition at FW now? You know he has defended that title once and everyone was saying Faber had no competition left after he beat Pulver in there first fight, how did that work out?


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Why does he have no competition at FW now? You know he has defended that title once and everyone was saying Faber had no competition left after he beat Pulver in there first fight, how did that work out?


I dunno Toxic :dunno:

I just don't see anybody who could be a challenge for him at that weight class.. maybe if Dominick Cruz goes up again?! Or some japanese guy comes out of nowhere^^ maybe.. or Gomi steps down after a loss to Joe?!

I just think Aldo has the frame to become a decent LW fighter sizewise! I am just to confident, that he would wreck most LW's :thumbsup: skill still beats size, in this case even more!


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I'm just saying we could be sleeping on some real talent. When Faber was dominant and people were saying he had nobody left we were all sleeping on Mike Brown and Aldo virtually came flying in out of nowhere. Who knows maybe we have all been sleeping on Manny.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Yea, I hear ya 

your right, thats always a possibility! And in the lower devision even more.

I just hope that Aldo joins the big stage already^^


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> First off, no he didn't. Don't let the fact Edgar got the decision fool you even those compustrike sites had BJ winning considerably. BJ looked like crap in that fight but he has been one of the top fighters in the world for almost a decade and you all write him off after one bad performance. The level of competition at 145 is a level below the UFC and to be honest I am not convinced that Aldo could beat Frankie Edgar. Also BJ is a small LW the bloated BJ that fought GSP only weighed in at 167. BJ could make FW himself. BJ would beat Aldo and it would not even be that close.


If by one you mean several than yes I agree. And if you are suggesting Mike Brown and Faber are a level below Florian and Diego, I'm not at all convinced. Also, interestingly enough, Aldo was noticeably the bigger man against Faber, at 23 years old, the rise to 155 would be seamless.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

The same Mike Brown who just lost to Manny Gamburyan who went 2-3 in the UFC against guys who weren't even mid level? Faber and Brown are easily a level below Florian and Diego if not two or three level's down.


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> The same Mike Brown who just lost to Manny Gamburyan who went 2-3 in the UFC against guys who weren't even mid level? Faber and Brown are easily a level below Florian and Diego if not two or three level's down.


Mike Brown is getting older and his brutal loss to Aldo may have damaged him.

Hindsight is pretty weak anyway. Tim Sylvia got knocked out by Ray Mercer for god's sake. Not to mention Manny isn't a LW, so what he did at that weight means nothing. It'd be like mentioning BJ's debacles at 170.


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> I dunno Toxic :dunno:
> 
> I just don't see anybody who could be a challenge for him at that weight class.. maybe if Dominick Cruz goes up again?! Or some japanese guy comes out of nowhere^^ maybe.. or Gomi steps down after a loss to Joe?!
> 
> I just think Aldo has the frame to become a decent LW fighter sizewise! I am just to confident, that he would wreck most LW's :thumbsup: skill still beats size, in this case even more!


Bibiano Fernandez has been painfully underrated. I'd like to see that fight. Fernandez just beat a man regarded as a top 5-10 LW at 155.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

A pretty good arguement could be made that BJ is a FW to (Brown and Manny are probably just as big as BJ) but I would also like to point out BJ fought GSP who is one of the top P4P fighters on the planet, Manny lost to Rob Emerson who lost 3 of 4 since that fight. There is about as big a gap in the level of competition they faced as is possible in the UFC.


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> A pretty good arguement could be made that BJ is a FW to (Brown and Manny are probably just as big as BJ) but I would also like to point out BJ fought GSP who is one of the top P4P fighters on the planet, Manny lost to Rob Emerson who lost 3 of 4 since that fight. There is about as big a gap in the level of competition they faced as is possible in the UFC.


That's irrelevant to Aldo. He's fought Brown and Faber, not Manny. Not to mention Manny, standing at a whopping 5'5 is not likely as big as a guy who used to hang out at around 185lbs. Besides this, fighters improve, and although I think Brown would likely beat Manvel 7/10, his loss doesn't make him any less of the dominant featherweight we've seen for years. Kenny Florian lost to Drew Fickett and Sherk in his career, by that logic, he's not a good fighter. And believe me, Sherk has looked bad for a long time now.


----------



## M_D (Apr 8, 2007)

Toxic said:


> A pretty good arguement could be made that BJ is a FW to (Brown and Manny are probably just as big as BJ) but I would also like to point out BJ fought GSP who is one of the top P4P fighters on the planet, Manny lost to Rob Emerson who lost 3 of 4 since that fight. There is about as big a gap in the level of competition they faced as is possible in the UFC.


yeah cause Emerson is God raise01:


----------



## Sauce1 (Aug 5, 2009)

Some really good points on both side of this debate. I would agree with the folks who are leaning towards BJ taking the fight but giving Aldo his credit. He has the potential in the next several years to become one of, if not the p4p best. Blackhouse is one deadly camp!


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

TLC said:


> That's irrelevant to Aldo. He's fought Brown and Faber, not Manny. Not to mention Manny, standing at a whopping 5'5 is not likely as big as a guy who used to hang out at around 185lbs. Besides this, fighters improve, and although I think Brown would likely beat Manvel 7/10, his loss doesn't make him any less of the dominant featherweight we've seen for years. Kenny Florian lost to Drew Fickett and Sherk in his career, by that logic, he's not a good fighter. And believe me, Sherk has looked bad for a long time now.


When did Sherk look bad? That is such a myth, Sherk got out struck by the two best boxers in the division. He beat Tyson Griffen who is damn tough. Sherk doesn't wrestle as much but he has still looked good. When I watched Sherk/Edgar I didn't think Sherk looked like crap I thought Edgar looked incredible. I realize Brown and Faber are tough but to make it sound like they could hang with the top of the LW division in the UFC is ludicrous. Both guys would get destroyed by the top 5 LW's in the UFC.


----------



## machidaisgod (Aug 14, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> Keep in mind BJ JUST loss to a natural 145lb'er who is leagues less talented and less suited to defeat Penn.
> 
> 
> The Aldo that showed up tonight would win 50-45 against the Penn that showed up for Frankie, period. The Penn that showed up for Diego... could be a war. But Penn isn't outstriking Aldo and he sure as hell isn't submitting him. Keep in mind he outwrestled Mike Brown.


+100 BJ is best striker in MMA:laugh:


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> When did Sherk look bad? That is such a myth, Sherk got out struck by the two best boxers in the division. He beat Tyson Griffen who is damn tough. Sherk doesn't wrestle as much but he has still looked good. When I watched Sherk/Edgar I didn't think Sherk looked like crap I thought Edgar looked incredible. I realize Brown and Faber are tough but to make it sound like they could hang with the top of the LW division in the UFC is ludicrous. Both guys would get destroyed by the top 5 LW's in the UFC.


That's because they aren't lightweights. Apples and oranges.

The point is between BJ Penn and Aldo regardless, and because styles make fights, I'd favor Aldo's brand of striking over BJ's. Aldo has shown deadly leg kicks, and is the perfect foil to BJ, who relies heavily on his legs. He leaves his lead leg out like a traditional boxer. Not only that, but BJ has had trouble with guys who use movement. Aldo is faster and more elusive than BJ and moreso than any fighter BJ has fought.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

So Faber and Brown are gonna lose to guys BJ totally dismantled because they are FW's not LW's but Aldo who is also a FW is gonna beat the most dominant LW in history? Your comparing Apples and oranges and then telling me not to do the same.


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> So Faber and Brown are gonna lose to guys BJ totally dismantled because they are FW's not LW's but Aldo who is also a FW is gonna beat the most dominant LW in history? Your comparing Apples and oranges and then telling me not to do the same.


It's pretty simple that some fighters can move up in weight more easily than others. For reasons I've already highlighted, Aldo could move up and be a force at 155. Not to mention, BJ just lost to Frankie friggin Edgar, now how dominant is he exactly? More excuses I guess, just like when he got beat by Jens friggin Pulver. Who's been beaten by Faber by the way, if you want to play the MMA math game.

Let me guess, you picked Forrest Griffin over Silva? After all, Forrest Griffin was champion over a much better and deeper division than the lowly middleweight Anderson Silva. :confused02:


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

TLC said:


> Ah, the old downplaying wins strategy. That's petty and easy to do. Ooh look at Penn he beat Florian who's best win is a washed up Gomi, or oooh he beat a weight drained Diego who barely got by Clay Guida. Sherk? lol when's the last time he's won a fight?
> 
> Of course that's a poor argument but so was your downplaying of Aldo.
> 
> ...


Multiple "off night" stages in his career? Oh, you mean when he lost to GSP and Edgar?

You realize losing to GSP isn't an "off night", right? His other losses? Machida at heavyweight? Pulver from 8 years ago? Yeah, soooo many off nights in his career! Seriously, back off the Penn hate so you can have an actual debate. Frankie is the only "off night" Penn has ever had, ever. He's lost to champions, and then Frankie. I never knew losing to the two best WW fighters of all time, and Lyoto Machida at heavyweight, is considered "off nights".

Do you not see the giant size/skill gap between talent from 155 and 145? Guys like Manny get destoryed in the UFC, then when they hit WEC at 145, they are now contenders for the title. Florian is 10 times the fighter ANYONE Aldo has faced, even Sanchez is better than most of the fighters Aldo has faced, if not all of them. Have you seen the video of Penn and Faber training? It's embarrassing, really. Penn would have taken Faber out, not only that, but the fight would have been even more dominating than it was.

Aldo is not on the level of Penn, he is not. The hype machine is in full force right now, he's a lower weight class guy who hasn't beaten or even faced half of the quality fighters Penn has beaten and faced.


----------



## Sekou (Oct 25, 2008)

keep in mid BJ has also fought at LHW and WW

could Aldo hang with GSP or Rumble Johnson?


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Michael Carson said:


> Multiple "off night" stages in his career? Oh, you mean when he lost to GSP and Edgar?
> 
> You realize losing to GSP isn't an "off night", right? His other losses? Machida at heavyweight? Pulver from 8 years ago? Yeah, soooo many off nights in his career! Seriously, back off the Penn hate so you can have an actual debate. Frankie is the only "off night" Penn has ever had, ever. He's lost to champions, and then Frankie. I never knew losing to the two best WW fighters of all time, and Lyoto Machida at heavyweight, is considered "off nights".
> 
> ...


While you are hear to qualify losses and speculate things based on things nothing to with Aldo such as the quality of the division just general, unqualified statements such as "Aldo is not on the level of Penn"(I guess....:confused05 Im here to analyze the actual matchup.

However, it seems best to just stick to my guns and wait for the matchup to happen. Any purposed flaws in BJ's game are countered with speculative excuses or just lame ones, despite BJ losing multiple times in his prime, even to guys like Frankie Edgar, whom even Gray Maynard defeated with EASE.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

TLC said:


> It's pretty simple that some fighters can move up in weight more easily than others. For reasons I've already highlighted, Aldo could move up and be a force at 155. Not to mention, BJ just lost to Frankie friggin Edgar, now how dominant is he exactly? More excuses I guess, just like when he got beat by Jens friggin Pulver. Who's been beaten by Faber by the way, if you want to play the MMA math game.
> 
> Let me guess, you picked Forrest Griffin over Silva? After all, Forrest Griffin was champion over a much better and deeper division than the lowly middleweight Anderson Silva. :confused02:


I can totally see why BJ would need an excuse to lose to Jens Pulver who was a 12-2 experianced pro fighter while BJ was in his 4th ever MMA fight. Who else not named Brock Lesnar has even fought for a title that quick?

And the Forrest Griffen/Anderson Silva comparison is ridiculous and hardly merits a response, Forrest won a somewhat controversial decision for the title and lost it in his first defense, BJ was a WW champ and has been considered the top LW fighter virtually since his debut almost a decade ago. Think about it BJ was 3-0 and was considered a heavy favorite against Pulver who had a huge experience advantage and trained with at that time the most dominant camp in the sport.


----------



## Sauce1 (Aug 5, 2009)

People that keep refering to the Edgar win and use that as an argument for why BJ is not the REAL Prodigy, need to withold their clear dislike for Penn as a person. Many reputable sites and fighters (Bas Rutten, Thiago Alves, etc) have all stated they believe BJ won against Edgar. 

My intent is not to take away from Edgar's performance and win but lets be honest here. BJ penn clearly had a serious off night and his trainer noted he was on antibiotics. Even if BJ Penn shows up at 75% in their rematch, I believe he will dominate. People need to show some more respect for one of the p4p best here. Guy has been dominating in the fight game for longer than some of us have been watching MMA.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

TLC said:


> While you are hear to qualify losses and speculate things based on things nothing to with Aldo such as the quality of the division just general, unqualified statements such as "Aldo is not on the level of Penn"(I guess....:confused05 Im here to analyze the actual matchup.
> 
> However, it seems best to just stick to my guns and wait for the matchup to happen. Any purposed flaws in BJ's game are countered with speculative excuses or just lame ones, despite BJ losing multiple times in his prime, even to guys like Frankie Edgar, whom even Gray Maynard defeated with EASE.


Lyoto Machida - Multiple weight classes above BJ, considered to be the best LHW in the world and BJ took him to a decision.

GSP X2 - A pound for pound great who is bigger, stronger, and a weight class above BJ

Hughes - BJ has a win over Hughes as well as a loss, and Hughes is considered the greatest WW of all time so far (will be passed by GSP I am sure)

Pulver - 8 years ago when Penn was still new.

Frankie - Penn was off this fight, pretty much everyone says so. Hell, half the MMA world think Penn won that fight anyways.

Those are BJ's losses, the two greatest WW champions of all time, which BJ has a win over one of them, Machida, the best LHW in the world who is multiple weight classes over him, Pulver which was 8 years ago, and Frankie.

The actual matchup you want to break down?

Experience - Penn

Chin - Penn

Ground - Penn

Striking - Penn is far better of a striker than anyone Aldo has faced. How the striking would go is up in the air, cause Aldo is fast and does have some good kicks.

Grappling in general - Penn

Other than striking, can you point out anything that Aldo has over Penn? Maybe conditioning, if Penn doesn't put all the work in? The Penn that beat Sanchez/florian wasn't even breathing hard after 4+ rounds. 

So, yeah, even simply breaking the fight down point by point, Penn wins.


----------



## GracieKiller (Apr 19, 2010)

I thought about this right after Aldo beat Faber. I think Aldo would end up beating BJ, no matter the specific special circumstances and point by point analyzation. Aldo would just make his game plan perfectly beat BJ's -- which BJ has been failing at lately, expecting his opponent to be one way when he's not even close to what he was training for...it's sad I know.
I mean, I'm a fan of BJ over Aldo entirely. It's just sad that BJ can't get to where he was. Aldo is just starting and BJ's prime is over. This is how the world works.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

GracieKiller said:


> I thought about this right after Aldo beat Faber. I think Aldo would end up beating BJ, no matter the specific special circumstances and point by point analyzation. Aldo would just make his game plan perfectly beat BJ's -- which BJ has been failing at lately, expecting his opponent to be one way when he's not even close to what he was training for...it's sad I know.
> I mean, I'm a fan of BJ over Aldo entirely. It's just sad that BJ can't get to where he was. Aldo is just starting and BJ's prime is over. This is how the world works.


What were BJ's game plans gone wrong? If the Florian and Diego game plans went wrong I can't imagine what would have happened if they went right.:dunno: Seriously BJ destroys the 2 guys everyone thought were his biggest threats at LW and then has a very bad night and loses a very questionable decision and suddenly he has been on a decline for a long time. Funny the fight before was one of the biggest destructions we have seen and one of the single most impressive displays we have seen in BJ's career. This is just getting ridiculous. BJ is still a monster and one of the greatest fighters today.


----------



## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

BJ is the only "elite" or "P4P" fighter where people on forums need to make multiple excuses for him. 


Pulver had more experience, GSP was bigger and is the best ever, Hughes was #1 at the time, he had an off night vs Edgar, Lyoto Machida was 20lbs heavier during the fight...


If he was the real prodigy like people refer to him as... he would have submitted GSP twice, beat Lyoto and Pulver (in only his fourth fight), wouldn't have had a draw with Caol and would have humiliated Frankie. 


But he didn't. He didn't do any of those things and that's why he's not the P4P great everyone thinks he is. He's had a great run but really... look at his record. He's in the "Randy Couture" category of elite fighters IMO but he'll never be in the "GSP" category of elite fighters.


----------



## Sauce1 (Aug 5, 2009)

Why so emotional? No offense but your dislike for Penn is clearly tainting your argument here. 

I do not see people making excuses for his losses. Rather stating the facts. Just like when fans pointed out Big Nogs illness and how it affected his loss to Mir. Any athlete is vulnerable to an off night or an illness and I see no reason to not point that out. In my humble opinion a healthy and conditioned Penn takes a healthy and conditioned Edgar 9 out of 10 fights. 

As for trying to devalue his legacy as an elite and p4p fighter, I strongly disagree here. The mark of a true legend is not always the wins but also the losses. Champions rise in moments of adversity and take risks to acheive goals. Penn personifies this. What other fight jumps multple weight classes to fight a p4p and make it competitive? You mention gsp but I don't see him testing himself by making a Move in 1 weight class let alone 3. I won't knock gsp because it's his initiative to stay and dominate his division but for you to belittle
Penn's p4p status based on those losses is laughable. 






khoveraki said:


> BJ is the only "elite" or "P4P" fighter where people on forums need to make multiple excuses for him.
> 
> 
> Pulver had more experience, GSP was bigger and is the best ever, Hughes was #1 at the time, he had an off night vs Edgar, Lyoto Machida was 20lbs heavier during the fight...
> ...


----------



## Jamal (Aug 20, 2009)

Why cant Aldo just stay at Featherweight? why does he need to go to Lightweight and face BJ? the guys had the belt since Novemeber only.

............

Seriously, whenever someone wins nowadays the fans want him vs another champion in another weight class, what are weight classes for again??

HMMMM...:confused05:


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> BJ is the only "elite" or "P4P" fighter where people on forums need to make multiple excuses for him.
> 
> 
> Pulver had more experience, GSP was bigger and is the best ever, Hughes was #1 at the time, he had an off night vs Edgar, Lyoto Machida was 20lbs heavier during the fight...
> ...


Actually, other P4P fighters losses are all excused.

Serra got "lucky" against GSP, right? How many times have we heard people say GSP's loss to Hughes was just him being intimidated, if he was in "the right mind set" he would have won? Every single one of Anderson's losses are excused with "well, he wasn't the same then". Fedor's loss is "it was an illegal strike and should have been a no contest, so it doesn't count".

Every single loss on every single P4P fighter's resume is "excused" every single one of them. You act like Penn is the only one?

Serra WOULD lose almost every single time against GSP, Anderson IS better than he once was, Fedor SHOULDN'T have had a loss on his record, cause it was an illegal strike, Penn DID lose to only the two best WW fighters EVER, Machida who is MULTIPLE weight classes above him and who is considered a P4P fighter himself by quite a few, and a loss from 8 years ago, in his 4th fight ever against a guy who was 12-2, and was the top guy at the time. Many believe Penn won against Edgar, and even more believe that Penn was off that night, he wasn't the same guy he normally is, the same way Shogun wasn't the same guy against Coleman. "off nights" actually happen, it's real, not make believe.

So, your entire argument of "it's only Penn who has "excuses" is 100% failure.

Oh, and, just so you know, the reason why you hear about BJ's loss "excuses" more then the many, many, MANY other fighters who fans all exuse their loss(s), is because there is a large portion of the MMA fans who hate Penn for one reason or another, thus when someone starts attacking him, fans of his or people with common sense have to jump in and defend the attacks, where as that rarely happens with other fighters, cause they don't get near the amount of hate


----------



## lvkyle (Sep 7, 2008)

Aldo proved he is a top 5 p4p IMO.

He got hit a few times vs Faber, but they were mostly quick slaps and leg teats.

Aldo is very fast, fast enough to give BJ a lot of problems.

145 lbs division is no joke, these guys are great at MMA, and ALDO IS FREAKING YOUNG. 23 years old? A man doesn't even peak physically and athletically until they are 25-26.

Aldo will continue to look better each fight and probably can easily go to 155 when ever he feels like it.

Mike Brown and Faber are very big strong 145 guys probably even stronger than Penn and Aldo handled them both with ease. 

Penn may be 2 inches taller with the longer reach but I'd give the edge to Aldo with his superior Muay Thai.



Aldo won me over as a big fan last night. I also think he showed some mercy in the 5th, not wanting to KO the home town hero in front of his fans cause he knew his leg was already fucked and it wouldn't be right, class act if you ask me. 

I think he would of def tried to finish the fight if Faber's leg wasn't jacked up, he was probably a little surprised him self how affective his leg kicks were.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

aldo's hands ain't that good but i could see this fight going either way


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Aldo is extremely explosive. He has versatile striking and a very good ground game. I think he is still too inexperienced for Penn. I think that if Aldo defended a couple of more times, then went to the UFC and faced better competition we would get a better look at what kind of fighter he really is. I think that he does have the potential to be better than Penn one day.


----------



## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

As a premier Penn fan, I think Aldo's kicks would give BJ trouble. Also, for being a muay thai guy, where was Faber's leg checks?


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> BJ is the only "elite" or "P4P" fighter where people on forums need to make multiple excuses for him.
> 
> 
> Pulver had more experience, GSP was bigger and is the best ever, Hughes was #1 at the time, he had an off night vs Edgar, Lyoto Machida was 20lbs heavier during the fight...
> ...


Nobody needs to make excuses for BJ they state facts. I don't see it, he went 1 and 1 against the top WW of all time despite being a LW (And he was owning Hughes before he gassed). I still feel he won the first fight against GSP, the second one he got his ass beat down but GSP is a monster with a lot more muscle and I am still not buying that the vasoline had zero impact. (I still think GSP wins just not in such a dominating fashion)). Basically everyone holds BJ accountable to the losses he has gotten attempting to push himself he has fought MW's and won, was WW champ (I don't remember Anderson wearing the LHW strap or GSP wearing any MW gold). BJ haters and there blind hatred and lack of respect for what he has actually accomplished boggle my mind.

The bottom line IMO is Aldo is not on the level yet were he is ready to face a guy like BJ. Penn is the far superior fighter right now. This is not a diss on Aldo though, I mean Aldo is the next BJ Penn, he is a prodigy they both fought for the title by the age of 23, difference is Aldo won. Give Aldo time and I am sure he has the potential to be just as great of a fighter as BJ is or ever was but not now, not yet.


----------



## AlexZ (Sep 14, 2007)

VolcomX311 said:


> As a premier Penn fan, I think Aldo's kicks would give BJ trouble. Also, for being a muay thai guy, where was Faber's leg checks?


^^^ I was thinking this the whole fight? Are his kicks just too fast and powerful? Makes me wonder what kind of defense Faber trained as far as leg kicks. Couldn't catch them and couldn't jump out the way fast enough, I would think checking them would be the first approach?


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Nobody needs to make excuses for BJ they state facts. I don't see it, he went 1 and 1 against the top WW of all time despite being a LW (And he was owning Hughes before he gassed). I still feel he won the first fight against GSP, the second one he got his ass beat down but GSP is a monster with a lot more muscle and I am still not buying that the vasoline had zero impact. (I still think GSP wins just not in such a dominating fashion)). Basically everyone holds BJ accountable to the losses he has gotten attempting to push himself he has fought MW's and won, was WW champ (I don't remember Anderson wearing the LHW strap or GSP wearing any MW gold). BJ haters and there blind hatred and lack of respect for what he has actually accomplished boggle my mind.
> 
> The bottom line IMO is *Aldo is not on the level yet were he is ready to face a guy like BJ*. Penn is the far superior fighter right now. This is not a diss on Aldo though, I mean Aldo is the next BJ Penn, he is a prodigy they both fought for the title by the age of 23, difference is Aldo won. Give Aldo time and I am sure he has the potential to be just as great of a fighter as BJ is or ever was but not now, not yet.


Says you. Aldo has the tools necessary right now to beat BJ. I've highlighted them many times in this post, and rather than address them, people just come up with broad, unqualified statements like this that anyone with an opinion can state.

If Frankie Edgar, loss to Gray Maynard included, could beat BJ Penn at his own game. I see no reason Aldo couldn't beat him at Aldo's game.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

TLC said:


> Says you. Aldo has the tools necessary right now to beat BJ. I've highlighted them many times in this post, and rather than address them, people just come up with broad, unqualified statements like this that anyone with an opinion can state.
> 
> If Frankie Edgar, loss to Gray Maynard included, could beat BJ Penn at his own game. I see no reason Aldo couldn't beat him at Aldo's game.


Penn's ground game is better, his chin is better, his conditioning is great when he puts the time in, his grappling is better, he has more experience, the only thing that you can say Aldo might have over Penn, is his striking, and Penn is a far better striker than anyone Aldo has faced.

How exactly does Aldo beat penn when he's outclassed in every single area except striking, and even taking into consideration how good Aldo's striking is, Penn is a far, FAR better striker than anyone Aldo has ever faced.

Also, you do realize _at least_ half the people who watched the Edgar fight thought Penn won it, and the majority of people, even ones who thought he lost, feel that Penn looked off that night. Even fightmetric has penn winning the fight. So, please, get off the whole "Edgar beat Penn, thus Penn sucks" parade.


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Michael Carson said:


> Penn's ground game is better, his chin is better, his conditioning is great when he puts the time in, his grappling is better, he has more experience, the only thing that you can say Aldo might have over Penn, is his striking, and Penn is a far better striker than anyone Aldo has faced.
> 
> *How exactly does Aldo beat penn* when he's outclassed in every single area except striking, and even taking into consideration how good Aldo's striking is, Penn is a far, FAR better striker than anyone Aldo has ever faced.
> 
> Also, you do realize _at least_ half the people who watched the Edgar fight thought Penn won it, and the majority of people, even ones who thought he lost, feel that Penn looked off that night. Even fightmetric has penn winning the fight. So, please, get off the whole* "Edgar beat Penn, thus Penn sucks" parade.*


Already stated this my first post in this topic.

All that stuff is irrelevent, Tito had Chuck beat in the ground game, chin, and experience and Chuck still dominated him, because styles makes fights, and Chuck has all he needed to win. 

Never stated that, I led the bandwagon for the "BJ got robbed" crew, not at all the point. BJ was given fits by an inferior fighter who utilized a style that would give BJ trouble. Period. 

Aldo also has much better stamina than BJ and it's not even close, Penn didn't tire in the Florian and Sanchez fights as a result of an extremely slow pace. He tired in the Edgar fight, and has had a history of gassing. Better stamina, faster, better striker, better style, bad matchup. Aldo is just a terror regardless of who you put in front of him. BJ is no exception.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

TLC said:


> Already stated this my first post in this topic.
> 
> All that stuff is irrelevent, Tito had Chuck beat in the ground game, chin, and experience and Chuck still dominated him, because styles makes fights, and Chuck has all he needed to win.
> 
> ...


Ok, first of all, Tito didn't have a "chin" over Chuck, In fact, there's nothing Tito has over Chuck. Chuck had better striking, better grappling (TDD via his wrestling), a better chin, more power, and a better striker. Tito had nothing against Chuck, that's why Tito avoided him for so long. Everyone and their mom knew Chuck would beat Tito, seeing as how Chuck is/was better in every single way.

Penn's cardio at 155 is very good. He got tired, he had an "off" night, I thought I already explained this to you in detail? Oh, did you read the part where a large portion of fans/fighters/promoters think BJ won that fight, along with Fightmetric? Also, did you know that Frankie has wins over Tyson, Sherk (former champion), Hermes, Miller, Fisher? Frankie is a very good fighter in his own right.

As for the matchup itself, we've already agreed on the fact that BJ has better ground game, better grappling, better chin, more experience, right? So, the only thing in question is cardio and striking:

Striking - Penn is far, FAR better of a striker than anyone Aldo has faced. His boxing is very crisp, he's very accurate, and he's quite fast himself (if you look at the points on Fightmetric, Penn actually landed more shots than Frankie did). He also has a far better chin than anyone Aldo has faced, and more than likely a far better chin than Aldo himself. Did I mention BJ's power? He's dropped guys to the ground with 1 shot. Aldo has power as well, but can he hurt Penn? No, not even heavyweights (BJ has fought at heavyweight, if you didn't know) can rock Penn (Penn's never been rocked on the feet in his entire career). Aldo has good kicks, and, you think Penn would sit there and eat them? Penn knows about his kicks, especially after watching him fight, he'd prepare for it.

Cardio - Penn has only gassed 1 time at LW, that was with frankie, and, he had an off night. Even with being gassed, he still out pointed frankie on strikes (you can see that at Fightmetric, btw). If Penn puts in all the work and trains hard, and comes in fully prepared, his cardio is very solid, both of them have solid cardio for the most part.

Now, it's your turn to tell me how Aldos striking is good enough to beat Penn (since that's the only thing he has over Penn).


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Michael Carson said:


> Ok, first of all, Tito didn't have a "chin" over Chuck, In fact, there's nothing Tito has over Chuck. Chuck had better striking, *better grappling (TDD via his wrestling*), a better chin, more power, and a better striker. Tito had nothing against Chuck, that's why Tito avoided him for so long. Everyone and their mom knew Chuck would beat Tito, seeing as how Chuck is/was better in every single way.
> 
> Penn's cardio at 155 is very good. He got tired, he had an "off" night, I thought I already explained this to you in detail? Oh, did you read the part where a large portion of fans/fighters/promoters think BJ won that fight, along with Fightmetric? Also, did you know that Frankie has wins over Tyson, Sherk (former champion), Hermes, Miller, Fisher? Frankie is a very good fighter in his own right.
> 
> ...


Except that argument seems to work in your favor? Aldo stuffed Mike Brown's shot, who's a better wrestler than BJ, not that BJ would shoot anyway, so you negate your own argument. Also, considering BJ fought above LW for a long time, it's ridiculous to state anything he did above it is meaningless in terms of rating his cardio. He gassed against Edgar and people call it an 'off night". Yeah ok..lol. I'll make sure to save that one when any of my favorite fighters lose.

Also, Compustrike had Frankie landing more strikes, go figure. Which one is more reputable? I'd got with Compustrike to be honest.



TLC said:


> I'd favor Aldo at this particular time. Bare in mind this fight would likely be very tactical with little fireworks and I see Aldo winning a clear decision.
> 
> Jose Aldo in his first fights showed phenomenal foot and hand speed and good power as well. His fight with Mike Brown was even more impressive as it showed his more than adequate strengh and takedown defense. Tonight however, I saw what I believe seperates Aldo from the rest, his incredibly calculated gameplans and cool temperament, something BJ has always lacked. Aldo used a brilliant, textbook Muay Thai chop down strategy against an opponent who was raving about his own footspeed and quickness. An expert display of gameplanning. Not only that, but he barely got hit, completely controlling range, stopping every takedown attempt before it even started(as opposed to BJ allowing himself to be pressed against the cage repeatedly) and picking him apart. His top control has shown to be good, and he's got great BJJ postioning. Not that Aldo's gameplan would include fighting BJ on the ground.
> 
> ...


Since apparently it's been missed.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

TLC said:


> Except that argument seems to work in your favor? Aldo stuffed Mike Brown's shot, who's a better wrestler than BJ, not that BJ would shoot anyway, so you negate your own argument. Also, considering BJ fought above LW for a long time, it's ridiculous to state anything he did above it is meaningless in terms of rating his cardio. He gassed against Edgar and people call it an 'off night". Yeah ok..lol. I'll make sure to save that one when any of my favorite fighters lose.
> 
> *Also, Compustrike had Frankie landing more strikes, go figure. Which one is more reputable? I'd got with Compustrike to be honest.*
> 
> ...


So, "your" site must be more reputable? Interesting... so, basically what we have here is that it's really up in the air who won, many think he won it, while many think he lost? Sounds to me like BJ didn't do too bad after all, and that he could have very well won that fight, since it's so close.

BJ has lacked cool temperment and gameplan? Tell that to Sanchez and Florian, or Hughes, or Sherk. You think the fight is going to go like Sherk vs. Penn, except Aldo would be more effective? How many kicks did Sherk land? Not many, in fact, he didn't really try that many, you know why? Cause Penn actaully does have very good balance and takedowns, and he didn't want to leave his leg out there. I can almost promise you that if Aldo were to keep his kicks up (especially since Penn would be expecting them), Penn would grab a leg and take him down. Penn is fast and accurate, Aldo is not some lightspeed fighter. Honestly, he isn't super super fast, he's just fast. As fast as most guys of his weight. The lower guys have speed, and BJ has the same. What BJ would lose in some minor speed, he'd make up for in power, chin, and better technical boxing. Edgar didn't "out box" Penn, Penn landed more strikes according to many. some say he didn't, many say he did, and I'd be more than willing to bet you Frankie is faster than Aldo, just not as powerful.

You complain about BJ letting someone push him against the fence? What does that have to do with fighting Aldo? Is Aldo going to try and take Penn down? That'll be very bad for Aldo, now wouldn't it? 

The fight would see Aldo standing the entire time, trying to beat Penn striking, casue he can't beat him anywhere else. If he kicks, Penn will find away around it, he will counter it or he will grab the leg and work the takedown. Penn's boxing is technically better than Aldo, and Aldo isn't as fast as Frankie, so he's not going to get off as much as Frankie did anyways. 

The only thing BJ has to worry about with Aldo, is his kicks, and he can find a way around them.

BJ didn't gass against Sherk, Florian, Sanchez (who has a very solid pace). Penn gassed early against Frankie, you think a guy who can go 5 rounds and not gass is going to gass early in his next fight, and not have an off night? Off nights are real, did you watch Coleman vs. Shogun?


----------



## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> So, "your" site must be more reputable? Interesting... so, basically what we have here is that it's really up in the air who won, many think he won it, while many think he lost? Sounds to me like BJ didn't do too bad after all, and that he could have very well won that fight, since it's so close.



So you're saying the fight was about even? As in... Frankie Edgar and BJ Penn are even as MMA fighters in skill? :confused05: Not a great argument to support your favorite fighter's "elite" status.


As for Coleman vs Shogun, Shogun was injured and hadn't looked good quite some time and he was basically wrote off as a has-been. It wasn't until he beat Lyoto that people saw he was legit again. Even after he put a clinic on against the Iceman people gave him zero chance against Lyoto.

If BJ comes back and destroys Maynard and Edgar in impressive, effortless fashion then maybe he can continue being falsely labeled "P4P." Until then, he's the guy who's 6-5 in his last eleven fights and 2-2 since '09. :sarcastic12:


----------



## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> So, "your" site must be more reputable? Interesting... so, basically what we have here is that it's really up in the air who won, many think he won it, while many think he lost? Sounds to me like BJ didn't do too bad after all, and that he could have very well won that fight, since it's so close.



So you're saying the fight was about even? As in... Frankie Edgar and BJ Penn are even as MMA fighters in skill? :confused05: Not a great argument to support your favorite fighter's "elite" status.


As for Coleman vs Shogun, Shogun was injured and hadn't looked good quite some time and he was basically wrote off as a has-been. It wasn't until he beat Lyoto that people saw he was legit again. Even after he put a clinic on against the Iceman people gave him zero chance against Lyoto.

If BJ comes back and destroys Maynard and Edgar in impressive, effortless fashion then maybe he can continue being falsely labeled "P4P." Until then, he's the guy who's 6-5 in his last eleven fights and 2-2 since '09. :sarcastic12:


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> So you're saying the fight was about even? As in... Frankie Edgar and BJ Penn are even as MMA fighters in skill? :confused05: Not a great argument to support your favorite fighter's "elite" status.
> 
> 
> As for Coleman vs Shogun, Shogun was injured and hadn't looked good quite some time and he was basically wrote off as a has-been. It wasn't until he beat Lyoto that people saw he was legit again. Even after he put a clinic on against the Iceman people gave him zero chance against Lyoto.
> ...


Ohh, what happened to "BJ is the only top fighter that excuses are made for"? Yeah, you just made an excsue for Shogun. Hypocrisy is fun, isn't it? Also, Shogun wasn't "injured" against Coleman, his knee had already healed, he just plain out didn't fight a good fight that night. He gassed and had a bad fight, the same way Penn had a bad fight against Edgar. 

I'm not saying Frankie and Penn are the same, I'm saying even when Penn has a bad night, many still believe he beat the #1 contender (a guy who beat a previous champion/contenders, and has 12-1 record).

All of BJ's losses are above his weight and against the greatest fighters in the world, except his loss from 8 years ago when he just got into the sport against a champion, and Frankie. Oh, and, BJ has already beaten, Florian (top 5 and #2 more than once), Sherk (former champion, finished him), Sanchez (who many Penn haters thought would beat Penn), and Stevenson, who is a decent fighter, and whom could probably be a top, top contender in the 145 division, skill wise. All he needs to do is beat Frankie (which he will, the rematch is already set it was such a close fight), and to be #1 at LW again and be in the mix for P4P again. it would be like GSP losing a fight he didn't do well in, coming back and winning the rematch. He'd be in the P4P rankings again. No Maynard fight needed, although he'd win.


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Michael Carson said:


> So, "your" site must be more reputable? Interesting... so, basically what we have here is that it's really up in the air who won, many think he won it, while many think he lost? Sounds to me like BJ didn't do too bad after all, and that he could have very well won that fight, since it's so close.
> 
> BJ has lacked cool temperment and gameplan? Tell that to Sanchez and Florian, or Hughes, or Sherk. You think the fight is going to go like Sherk vs. Penn, except Aldo would be more effective? How many kicks did Sherk land? Not many, in fact, he didn't really try that many, you know why? Cause Penn actaully does have very good balance and takedowns, and he didn't want to leave his leg out there. I can almost promise you that if Aldo were to keep his kicks up (especially since Penn would be expecting them), Penn would grab a leg and take him down. Penn is fast and accurate, Aldo is not some lightspeed fighter. Honestly, he isn't super super fast, he's just fast. As fast as most guys of his weight. The lower guys have speed, and BJ has the same. What BJ would lose in some minor speed, he'd make up for in power, chin, and better technical boxing. Edgar didn't "out box" Penn, Penn landed more strikes according to many. some say he didn't, many say he did, and I'd be more than willing to bet you Frankie is faster than Aldo, just not as powerful.
> 
> ...


Sherk and Edgar landed quite a few leg kicks, in spite of being wrestlers with an eighth of the striking ability of Jose.

Also, lol at Penn taking him down. I guess Faber and Brown could've easily taken him down if they tried, oh wait.
Also coming from a guy who has what, one takedown in his last 5 or even more fights? A guy, who despite his corners please, waved off his corner and didn't bother attempting to take down Edgar. A sample of Penn's cool temperament and gameplanning I suppose. :sarcastic12:

Edgar being faster than Aldo made me literally laugh out loud. Their strike speed isn't even comparable. It's like comparing Muhammed Ali's handspeed to Wladamir Klitschko's. :laugh:

BJ only didn't gas in those fights because the pace was incredibly slow and he paces himself. He couldn't outwork a guy like Aldo. BJ hardly ever moves outside of engaging and when he does, he barely moves even then. He also makes his opponent come to him rather than going after him and striking. This is basically why the Florian fight was so indecisive before it hit the ground. Not a dominating performance at all, a dominating finish, but really nothing was happening before that except a few punches and a bunch of takedown attempts.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

*Sherk and Edgar landed quite a few leg kicks, in spite of being wrestlers with an eighth of the striking ability of Jose.*

Sherk didn't land "quite a few leg kicks". He barely even tried any, cause there is a risk of being taken down. As stated multiple times already, Penn had an off night against Frankie.

*Also, lol at Penn taking him down. I guess Faber and Brown could've easily taken him down if they tried, oh wait.
Also coming from a guy who has what, one takedown in his last 5 or even more fights? A guy, who despite his corners please, waved off his corner and didn't bother attempting to take down Edgar. A sample of Penn's cool temperament and gameplanning I suppose. :sarcastic12:*

Penn would expect the kicks from Aldo, he'd realize that would be major part of Aldo's plan, and either counter them, check them, or catch a leg and take him down. BJ doesn't try to take guys down cause he can beat them standing. Whenever he does try to take someone down, he does.

*Edgar being faster than Aldo made me literally laugh out loud. Their strike speed isn't even comparable. It's like comparing Muhammed Ali's handspeed to Wladamir Klitschko's. :laugh:*

Actually, Frankie is faster than Aldo with his hands. Of course, that's where the hype comes into play, right?

*BJ only didn't gas in those fights because the pace was incredibly slow and he paces himself. He couldn't outwork a guy like Aldo. BJ hardly ever moves outside of engaging and when he does, he barely moves even then. He also makes his opponent come to him rather than going after him and striking. This is basically why the Florian fight was so indecisive before it hit the ground. Not a dominating performance at all, a dominating finish, but really nothing was happening before that except a few punches and a bunch of takedown attempts.*

The pace was not slow against Sanchez or Florian. Both of them put BJ up agains the cage and worked him, trying to get him tired much like GSP did. Guess what, it didn't work, cause BJ at 155 is in great shape. If you honestly think BJ didn't dominate florian or Sanchez, then It's clear you really either 1. dislike BJ A LOT, or 2. Have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Michael Carson said:


> *Sherk and Edgar landed quite a few leg kicks, in spite of being wrestlers with an eighth of the striking ability of Jose.*
> 
> Sherk didn't land "quite a few leg kicks". He barely even tried any, cause there is a risk of being taken down. As stated multiple times already, Penn had an off night against Frankie.
> 
> ...


Except he did. And lol at "off night" Greatest excuse ever.

Except BJ has proven to be inept at following gameplans. And again, you just make things up. I could say "Aldo will be prepared for Penn's boxing and stop all of BJ's takedowns" but that's baseless. So instead I stated what I think what would happen based on seeing many fights of both fighters.

Except he isn't.







Laying against someone against a cage does not equate to a fast pace. GSP also hardly did that, he may have done it for a short time in the first round, then his takedowns came in the second and he just proceeded to beat the shit out of him. The stand up pace was turtle speed. No questions asked.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

TLC said:


> Except he did. And lol at "off night" Greatest excuse ever.
> 
> Except BJ has proven to be inept at following gameplans. And again, you just make things up. I could say "Aldo will be prepared for Penn's boxing and stop all of BJ's takedowns" but that's baseless. So instead I stated what I think what would happen based on seeing many fights of both fighters.
> 
> ...


You realize that BJ started to get tired in the second becasue of GSP pushing him against the cage, right? BJ stated himself, in his own words, "I was done after the second". It was after Penn gassed that GSP was able to take him down. GSP tried multiple times in the first round and failed, but BJ got tired defending them casue he had to move up a weight, put on a lot of fat, and gassed like he has always done at WW and higher weights. The same technique used at 155, for much longer duration, does not tire Penn out. In fact, Florian trained with GSP for the Penn fight, and his gameplan was to push Penn against the cage and wear him down like GSP did. Did it work? Nope, casue at 155 Penn has great cardio.

I've seen Penn fight guys much better than Aldo, and I've seen him beat guys better than Aldo as well. You talk about "watching their fights", yeah, watch Penns fights against top ranked guys who are much more skilled than anyone Aldo has ever faced, compared to Aldo's win over Brown, who just got destroyed by Manny, a guy who couldn't cut it in the LW divison, Cub who isn't exactly amazing, and Faber, who couldn't finish Pulver after 5 rounds in the first fight, lost to Brown twice, and the only other guy Faber has faced that has any sort of real name, is Tyson, where Faber got knocked out. The entire 145 division isn't as skilled as LW, you can see that when a guy who couldn't make it in the LW divison is now a top contender at 145.

Once Aldo actually fights someone that can do decently in the UFC LW divison, and have such success, maybe I'll be thinking more of him. Right now, it's all Hype.


----------



## Adam365 (Jul 10, 2008)

Is the ufc giving BJ a rematch with edgar hoping he gets his belt back so they could set up aldo vs penn? just a thought.


----------



## cisco2403 (Apr 12, 2010)

*


khoveraki said:



So you're saying the fight was about even? As in... Frankie Edgar and BJ Penn are even as MMA fighters in skill? :confused05: Not a great argument to support your favorite fighter's "elite" status

Click to expand...

*


khoveraki said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## spaulding91 (Sep 23, 2007)

Michael Carson said:


> You realize that BJ started to get tired in the second becasue of GSP pushing him against the cage, right? BJ stated himself, in his own words, "I was done after the second". It was after Penn gassed that GSP was able to take him down. GSP tried multiple times in the first round and failed, but BJ got tired defending them casue he had to move up a weight, put on a lot of fat, and gassed like he has always done at WW and higher weights. The same technique used at 155, for much longer duration, does not tire Penn out. In fact, Florian trained with GSP for the Penn fight, and his gameplan was to push Penn against the cage and wear him down like GSP did. Did it work? Nope, casue at 155 Penn has great cardio.
> 
> I've seen Penn fight guys much better than Aldo, and I've seen him beat guys better than Aldo as well. You talk about "watching their fights", yeah, watch Penns fights against top ranked guys who are much more skilled than anyone Aldo has ever faced, compared to Aldo's win over Brown, who just got destroyed by Manny, a guy who couldn't cut it in the LW divison, Cub who isn't exactly amazing, and Faber, who couldn't finish Pulver after 5 rounds in the first fight, lost to Brown twice, and the only other guy Faber has faced that has any sort of real name, is Tyson, where Faber got knocked out. The entire 145 division isn't as skilled as LW, you can see that when a guy who couldn't make it in the LW divison is now a top contender at 145.
> 
> Once Aldo actually fights someone that can do decently in the UFC LW divison, and have such success, maybe I'll be thinking more of him. Right now, it's all Hype.


Actually its well know GSP wasn't trying to take BJ down in the first. He was making him work against the cage so BJ's shoulders would stiffin up so his hands wouldn't be as fast esp. the jab. 

As for Aldo vs. BJ i think it would be a pretty even fight. Aldo would def give him trouble standing. As for Aldos kicks they come very fast and untelegraphed.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

spaulding91 said:


> Actually its well know GSP wasn't trying to take BJ down in the first. He was making him work against the cage so BJ's shoulders would stiffin up so his hands wouldn't be as fast esp. the jab.
> 
> As for Aldo vs. BJ i think it would be a pretty even fight. Aldo would def give him trouble standing. As for Aldos kicks they come very fast and untelegraphed.


GSP attempted 3 takedowns from the clinch in the first round and failed them. His plan was to wear him against the cage and try to take him down. He did wear him down, but he could not take him down until he was gassed.


----------



## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

It's pretty pathetic to get gassed early in the 2nd round anyway. Horrible cardio. I guess these recurring trends happen to keep showing up by chance, eh? Also, funny how there's a list of fighters that supposedly are better than Aldo that BJ's beaten. Last I check Aldo was nearly a consensus top 5 p4p fighter. BJ hasn't beaten many of those in his career.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

TLC said:


> It's pretty pathetic to get gassed early in the 2nd round anyway. Horrible cardio. I guess these recurring trends happen to keep showing up by chance, eh? Also, funny how there's a list of fighters that supposedly are better than Aldo that BJ's beaten. Last I check Aldo was nearly a consensus top 5 p4p fighter. BJ hasn't beaten many of those in his career.


Horrible cardio? Oh, you mean when he moved up in weight to a division where he faces guys much larger than he is and gasses? Oh, wait a minute, we're talking about them fighting at 155, you know, where BJ has only gassed 1 time out of his multiple fights against the best of the divison. As I said earlier, did you know Florian trained with GSP for the Penn fight? Did you know throughout that fight Florian pushed Penn against the fence and constantly made Penn work as to tire him out like GSP did, except, you know, it didn't work and Florian got choked out. I wonder why it didn't work, hmm.. oh, yes, that's right, Penn has great cardio at 155.

Florian would beat Aldo, Sherk, if he did his gameplan correctly, would take Aldo down and beat him, even Stevenson would be a top level contedner at 145 (wouldn't beat Aldo, though), Manny is now a top contender at 145 for crying out loud, the whole 145 division is a whole level below on general fighting skill. Oh, did I meantion Matt Hughes, a guy a weight class above him who is known as the greatest WW of all time, who is bigger and stronger than Aldo, who happens to be an amazing wrestler? Yeah, BJ out grappled him and choked him out in the first round.

Aldo is all hype right now. He's a solid fighter and is looking impressive, but he's nowhere near ready for someone like Penn. Hell, his best win is Brown, a guy who got destroyed by Manny, a guy who couldn't even beat the lowest level guys in the UFC LW divison.


----------



## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Michael Carson said:


> Horrible cardio? Oh, you mean when he moved up in weight to a division where he faces guys much larger than he is and gasses? Oh, wait a minute, we're talking about them fighting at 155, you know, where BJ has only gassed 1 time out of his multiple fights against the best of the divison. As I said earlier, did you know Florian trained with GSP for the Penn fight? Did you know throughout that fight Florian pushed Penn against the fence and constantly made Penn work as to tire him out like GSP did, except, you know, it didn't work and Florian got choked out. I wonder why it didn't work, hmm.. oh, yes, that's right, Penn has great cardio at 155.
> 
> Florian would beat Aldo, Sherk, if he did his gameplan correctly, would take Aldo down and beat him, even Stevenson would be a top level contedner at 145 (wouldn't beat Aldo, though), Manny is now a top contender at 145 for crying out loud, the whole 145 division is a whole level below on general fighting skill. Oh, did I meantion Matt Hughes, a guy a weight class above him who is known as the greatest WW of all time, who is bigger and stronger than Aldo, who happens to be an amazing wrestler? Yeah, BJ out grappled him and choked him out in the first round.
> 
> Aldo is all hype right now. He's a solid fighter and is looking impressive, but he's nowhere near ready for someone like Penn. Hell, his best win is Brown, a guy who got destroyed by Manny, a guy who couldn't even beat the lowest level guys in the UFC LW divison.


Your BJ love is blinding you. Hughes out wrestled and out grappled BJ twice before BJ beat him. If BJ's cardio sucks at 170 then why go to it? The primetimes were obvious that BJ wasn't taking his training seriously. Against Florian he did, and thats why he didn't gas. It had nothing to do with weight, it had everything to do with BJ being lazy.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Your BJ love is blinding you. Hughes out wrestled and out grappled BJ twice before BJ beat him. If BJ's cardio sucks at 170 then why go to it? The primetimes were obvious that BJ wasn't taking his training seriously. Against Florian he did, and thats why he didn't gas. It had nothing to do with weight, it had everything to do with BJ being lazy.


Actually, BJ was in shape before the second GSP fight. He just got done beating Sherk. He was very slim and in shape. He had to put on fat to move up in weight to fight GSP. Look at BJ during the GSP fight and the fight at LW before and after that. He has always gassed at WW becasue he cannot stay in good shape at that weight.

As for Hughes out grappling BJ, BJ got his back and choked him out. I'd say BJ out grappled Hughes, woulnd't you?


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Even the big out of shape BJ bulked up to fight at WW can't make 170, BJ isn't a LW. BJ is a FW naturally, I still think a guy like Mike Brown is bigger than BJ. Look at the size difference between BJ and Diego when they fought.


----------



## Sauce1 (Aug 5, 2009)

Horrible cardio? Lazy? Not a p4p great? I say blasphemy 

And this is coming from the thread starter who is giving credit to Aldo and placing his name beside one of the all time greats as in the Prodigy. 

I love how some of you are still mentioning Penn's performances in WW. It is VERY rare for any top fighter to move up in multiple weight classes and fight another p4p fighter and hold their own. Penn has not only done this but has held the belt in two weight classes. Forget his unbelieve performances in LW, that alone deserves major props. How many fighters can say this? Instead of appreciating that, the critics will find some reason to expect more and throw out hate. I guess some of you are unable to appreciate true MMA and greatness. Oh well. 







TLC said:


> It's pretty pathetic to get gassed early in the 2nd round anyway. Horrible cardio. I guess these recurring trends happen to keep showing up by chance, eh? Also, funny how there's a list of fighters that supposedly are better than Aldo that BJ's beaten. Last I check Aldo was nearly a consensus top 5 p4p fighter. BJ hasn't beaten many of those in his career.


----------



## kano666 (Nov 2, 2007)

Toxic said:


> BJ looked like crap in that fight but he has been one of the top fighters in the world for almost a decade and you all write him off after one bad performance. The level of competition at 145 is a level below the UFC and to be honest I am not convinced that Aldo could beat Frankie Edgar. Also BJ is a small LW the bloated BJ that fought GSP only weighed in at 167. BJ could make FW himself. BJ would beat Aldo and it would not even be that close.


I agree. While it is theoretically possible that Aldo could beat a top lightweight, it is extremely unlikely that he could beat BJ Penn. Penn at his very worst would still have a number of advantages over Aldo. Penn could win by KO, TKO, submission or decision. The most Aldo could hope for would be a decision win on speed & points, like Edgar. He would need a perfect plan and a perfect night, along with a sluggish BJ, to pull that off.

(I cut the part about whether BJ beat Edgar because I think it was a close enough fight that the judges' decision was reasonable).


----------

