# Wanderlei sucks, Cro Cop sucks, Fedor sucks...



## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

Chael Sonnen made a few fair points about Wanderlei, Mirko and Fedor in one of his most recent interviews.

"Wanderlei's gonna go 22 straight wins in Japan and he can't win 2 straight in America? Mirko Cro Cop's gonna win all those fights in Japan and he can't beat anyone in America? Fedor's gonna win all those fights in Japan and he's 3-2 in America, one of those wins is over a guy who was flipping tires..."

(it's from the "backstage with Chael Sonnen", Ariel Helwani)

What's your opinion on that? Seriously, even Wanderlei's early UFC record was 1-2... And Cro Cop declined surprisingly and rapidly in UFC right after winning PRIDE GP. Is it possible that he was never that good?

I'm not saying I totally agree with Sonnen, I just think it's a good topic for conversation to clarify one thing or two.


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## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

Not that I'm saying this applies to these guys as well, but hasn't there already been controversy about Pride fixing fights?


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Chael doesn't agree with Chael.


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## vilify (Mar 23, 2010)

This would have been a decent thread if only you left Sonnen out of it.


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## anderton46 (Apr 23, 2010)

They don't 'suck', it's just in my opinion the sport has passed them by. Their styles won them fights 5 years ago. Now guys are learning everything they learnt over their career in 2/3 years (experience aside) and then continueing to develop. In current MMA, they are not that great, middle tier fighters. But that doesn't mean they should be respected any less.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

anderton46 said:


> They don't 'suck', it's just in my opinion the sport has passed them by. Their styles won them fights 5 years ago. Now guys are learning everything they learnt over their career in 2/3 years (experience aside) and then continueing to develop. In current MMA, they are not that great, middle tier fighters. But that doesn't mean they should be respected any less.


Sonnen says Mirko didn't lose his motivation, he just sucks. I partially agree because he joined UFC after winning PRIDE GP rather easily, then looked defenseless against Gonzaga. He never looked that bad in PRIDE even when he fought Fedor, LHKs stopped landing completely... they never touched anybody in UFC. Why? Is it because Gonzaga, Kongo and Al-Turk have excellent defense? No.

Of course, these 3 guys still deserve respect no matter what.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

Different rules, different ring, different match up, different era, different primes. I think it's apples and oranges to me. How would they have done in UFC during that same time period? How would UFC fighters of that time would have done in pride? There are too many variables to make such a comparison a valid one.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

The_Senator said:


> Sonnen says Mirko didn't lose his motivation, he just sucks. I partially agree because he joined UFC after winning PRIDE GP rather easily, then looked defenseless against Gonzaga. He never looked that bad in PRIDE even when he fought Fedor, LHKs stopped landing completely... they never touched anybody in UFC. Why? Is it because Gonzaga, Kongo and Al-Turk have excellent defense? No.
> 
> Of course, these 3 guys still deserve respect no matter what.


He didn't train in a cage till after the GG fight. Ring and cage are two different environments especially for a striker known for cornering his opponents. I was never on the Cro Cop hype train but the guy was a serious fighter. To make such a transition at such a late period of ones career can take your heart out of it, which obviously happened in a dramatic way with CC.



> Wanderlei's gonna go 22 straight wins in Japan and he can't win 2 straight in America? Mirko Cro Cop's gonna win all those fights in Japan and he can't beat anyone in America


Typical spin, again Sonnen for president! He makes it sound like Wandy was unstoppable in pride and came into the UFC undefeated, but the truth of the matter is in his last 8 fights in Pride, Wandy went 4-4 (two against open weight). Was he fed a few cans in his 22 win streak, sure, but most are fed a can here or there. He was on a decline when he entered the UFC, unfortunately from all the wars. Minotauro is another example of someone that is past his prime from all the damage taken, even though they are both relatively young.

Fedor got submitted by one of the (if not the) best HW submission fighters in the world, which is nothing to be ashamed of. His mistake is that he is still in pride mode which encourages action, as compared to the more strategic UFC/strikeforce style. Personally I cannot see Fedor "game planning" nor would I want him too. His other loss is against a giant that probably outweighed him by 40 pounds or more (if you factor in Fedor lumps =-)) that has a iron chin, decent striking and a monster on the ground. Again nothing to be ashamed of. I also believe that Fedor has been past his prime for about 3 years now and said so three years ago.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

Soakked said:


> Different rules, different ring, different match up, different era, different primes. I think it's apples and oranges to me. How would they have done in UFC during that same time period? How would UFC fighters of that time would have done in pride? There are too many variables to make such a comparison a valid one.


Wanderlei never looked great in UFC, in his debut in 90s he was brutally knocked out by Belfort, beat some guy, whom wiki doesn't even know, then lost to Ortiz and moved to PRIDE to build a career. Then he came back in 2007 and the same thing continued...


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## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

Soakked said:


> Different rules, different ring, different match up, different era, different primes. I think it's apples and oranges to me. How would they have done in UFC during that same time period? How would UFC fighters of that time would have done in pride? There are too many variables to make such a comparison a valid one.


And you could even make a case about Liddell. Guy runs through the UFC (with the exception of Couture), then comes in to Pride and loses to Rampage. Comes back to the UFC and gets another streak rolling. And although Rampage wasn't one of the guys Sonnen mentioned, he did get beat by Silva 2 times while in Pride.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

Leed said:


> And you could even make a case about Liddell. Guy runs through the UFC (with the exception of Couture), then comes in to Pride and loses to Rampage. Comes back to the UFC and gets another streak rolling. And although Rampage wasn't one of the guys Sonnen mentioned, he did get beat by Silva 2 times while in Pride.


We all remember that Rampage was complaining about judging during his fights with Silva. When the second fight hit the ground, referee told them to stand up (and that was a terrible decision in the eyes of many fans, but suited Wanderlei), which led to vicious KO.


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

Sonnen is a moron, Fedor was a great fighter he is just OLD now and everybody starts losing once they get old. This is just a fact of life, and it's the same thing that happened to Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva, and Cro Cop.

I watched that whole interview and I thought it was funny how Sonnen forgot to mention guys from Pride who had success who also have great success in the UFC like Rampage (UFC champion), Shogun (UFC champion), and Anderson Silva (UFC champion/made Sonnen give up in a fight).

**** Chael Sonnen, he doesn't even believe the things he says he just says them to piss people off and make the dumber fans buy into his BS.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

The_Senator said:


> Wanderlei never looked great in UFC, in his debut in 90s he was brutally knocked out by Belfort, beat some guy, whom wiki doesn't even know, then lost to Ortiz and moved to PRIDE to build a career. Then he came back in 2007 and the same thing continued...


He lost to Belfort back when Belfort was an absolute beast, and to Ortiz right around the time Ortiz was putting together the best LHW streak that (correct me if I am wrong) still stands now. Not shabby loses by any stretch. I don't think anyone believes Wandy was the greatest LHW of all time or whatever. Even great fighters lose, it doesn't discount their achievements. 

I admit I am a big fan, but I am not blind to think that he was the greatest or anything, I would have put my money on Chuck beating him during that time when they were both on a roll. But Wandy certainy wasn't a paper tiger either.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Well..

Wandy, Cro cop and fedor suck in the same way that: randy couture sucks, chuck Liddell sucks, Royce Gracie sucks, matt Hughes sucks.. Some say it's time, changing of the guard, new generation w.e at one point these were the best fighters in the world.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Sure Chael is trolling you guys and doing a great job but, there are little kernels of truth in things that he says.

Wandy's record includes 9 Japanese cans and 7 more names that I can't place.

Nog armbarred Mark Coleman of all people and was instantly declared the greatest HW BJJ fighter in the world. He then gets beaten 1/2 to death by Bob Sapp Gnp'd into the hospital by Fedor and out BJJ'd by Ricco Rodriguez. I challenge anyone to watch that fight and say Nog won.

if you watch sakurabas fights it's hard not to believe the part about the ear pieces. Especially against Kimo,belfort, and his(Prides) robbery of Guy Metzger.

On the flip side sakuraba/Newton and wandy/Metzger are in my opinion, 2 of the greatest fights ever so who ******* cares.

Underneath the insults and comedy his basic point that they did great in Japan and not so great in the USA is accurate.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> Sonnen is a moron, Fedor was a great fighter he is just OLD now and everybody starts losing once they get old. This is just a fact of life, and it's the same thing that happened to Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva, and Cro Cop


Well, Fedor is not that old, he's just 34 (soon to be 35). He didn't take tons of punishment during his PRIDE fights comparing to NOG or Wanderlei, so he shouldn't be far from his prime based solely on his age... His skills are still where they should be, so, applying Sonnen's interesting logic about fighters from the same era (Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis ), Fedor still HAS TO be much better than Shane Carwin, Frank Mir, Fabricio Werdum, Roy Nelson, Cheick Kongo and Brock Lesnar to justify his undisputed #1 status among all heavyweights of HIS era, because these guys are the same age or very close to Fedor's. Now, JDS and Cain are much younger, they started MMA much later, so they are the TRUE new generation, no doubt. We can't compare those 2 to Fedor and they can't influence Fedor's supremacy of that era.


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## Leed (Jan 3, 2010)

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> Sonnen is a moron, Fedor was a great fighter he is just OLD now and everybody starts losing once they get old.


Compared to who? Jon Jones? Yes. But you don't see Anderson getting old (he is 2 years older) or Machida (only 1 year older). And there are more examples.
It's weird in MMA though. It's like, your 'real life age' doesn't even matter, but what matters is your 'MMA age', aka how long have you've been in the sport.


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## dvdanny (May 18, 2011)

oldfan said:


> Sure Chael is trolling you guys and doing a great job but, there are little kernels of truth in things that he says.
> 
> Wandy's record includes 9 Japanese cans and 7 more names that I can't place.
> 
> ...


The ref ear pieces in Pride always rubbed me the wrong way... why would a trained ref need verbal input from a source that is not in the ring?? It just added a line of influence from an outside the fight itself which is extremely shady imo and would never fly here in the U.S.

On par with that, Sakaraba vs. Shamrock was one of the worse cases of early stoppages I've seen considering how some other fights in pride went down.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

xeberus said:


> Well..
> 
> Wandy, Cro cop and fedor suck in the same way that: randy couture sucks, chuck Liddell sucks, Royce Gracie sucks, matt Hughes sucks.. Some say it's time, changing of the guard, new generation w.e at one point these were the best fighters in the world.


Exactly. If you look at the guys who were on top in the UFC when Wandy & Fedor were champs in Pride, well, they ain't doing too well either are they? That's just the way it goes, the fight game progresses every year while fighters get older and more beat up. If you can't keep up you're left behind.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

This thread makes me nostalgic.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

Haha Oldfan that sig from Sonnen is classic and true on many levels.


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## RestInPeace (Jan 1, 2007)

You're cool Chael. Ripping on legends who were in their primes 10 years ago and were at the top of the food chain back then is soooo badass.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

1 word - steroids. I'm convinced Wanderlei, CroCop, Shogun and Filho were on roids back in Pride, which clearly had jack for testing and actually encouraged steroid use because it made for more aggressive fights. But when they came to the US, they probably figured it was safer to drop it because the testing is stricter.

There's interviews with Chuck where he states he was offered "blowfish juice" by the pride management themselves, for "enhancing strength and stamina" right before the pride GP. There's also many interviews of Rampage stating that he suspected many of the others were on roids but he avoided taking them.

This explains why Rampage and Fedor (IMHO two of the clean ones) made excellent transitions, whereas Filho and CroCop have gone through classic withdrawal depressions from low testerone levels, Shogun suffered from massive loss of cardio, and Wanderlei lost a lot of his aggression and muscle mass.

Again Fedor IMO is not on that list ... he actually transitioned really well and KOd two freshly ex-UFC HW champs in rd 1. He's just gotten old now and a bit unevolved, and there's no shame in that.

Of course Sonnen is an idiot who has no right to talk, he's a roidhead himself, but he does make half a point.


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## Ocelot (Sep 6, 2008)

RestInPeace said:


> You're cool Chael. Ripping on legends who were in their primes 10 years ago and were at the top of the food chain back then is soooo badass.


He also ripped on Silva and then fought Silva who is at the top of the current food chain. He's Chael Sonnen he doesn't give a f**k.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

Liddellianenko said:


> 1 word - steroids. I'm convinced Wanderlei, CroCop, Shogun and Filho were on roids back in Pride, which clearly had jack for testing and actually encouraged steroid use because it made for more aggressive fights. But when they came to the US, they probably figured it was safer to drop it because the testing is stricter.
> 
> There's interviews with Chuck where he states he was offered "blowfish juice" by the pride management themselves, for "enhancing strength and stamina" right before the pride GP. There's also many interviews of Rampage stating that he suspected many of the others were on roids but he avoided taking them.
> 
> ...


I actually thought about that possibility at one point and took it seriously. But on the same token, steriod use is quite common here in the states regardless of stricter enforcement. So if they wanted to they could have just continued.

But I guess we would never know for sure.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

Soakked said:


> I actually thought about that possibility at one point and took it seriously. But on the same token, steriod use is quite common here in the states regardless of stricter enforcement. So if they wanted to they could have just continued.
> 
> But I guess we would never know for sure.


Right, but there's a difference between NO repercussions at all and SOME repercussions. 

At least in the US some guys do get caught, and repeat offenders do endanger their careers. Marquardt and Barnett for example. And many others do get caught, maligned and suspended for their first time ex: Sherk, Sylvia, Sonnen, Leben, Irvin and so on. 

Is it fool proof? No, for that they need random-date testing instead of the fixed pre and post fight testing they have now, and even that isn't fool proof. 

But it's a whole lot tougher than Japan. Name ONE guy in Japanese MMA that got caught or punished for roids. Don't hurt your brain too much, it's a trick question.

Cycling steroids may help you beat tests, but it's not fool proof. The human body is a tricky thing, sometimes it can throw you a curve ball and take longer to flush out, get you caught, and ruin your reputation for life. Which is why I suspect these guys went cold turkey when they came over.

But yeah, no way to know for sure.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

oldfan said:


> out BJJ'd by Ricco Rodriguez. I challenge anyone to watch that fight and say Nog won.


 Damn rights, not enough people talk about that fight which oh so clearly shows that the Japanese judging system is as inherently flawed as the US one.



The_Senator said:


> Well, Fedor is not that old, he's just 34 (soon to be 35). He didn't take tons of punishment during his PRIDE fights comparing to NOG or Wanderlei, so he shouldn't be far from his prime based solely on his age... His skills are still where they should be, so, applying Sonnen's interesting logic about fighters from the same era (Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis ), Fedor still HAS TO be much better than Shane Carwin, Frank Mir, Fabricio Werdum, Roy Nelson, Cheick Kongo and Brock Lesnar to justify his undisputed #1 status among all heavyweights of HIS era, because these guys are the same age or very close to Fedor's. Now, JDS and Cain are much younger, they started MMA much later, so they are the TRUE new generation, no doubt. We can't compare those 2 to Fedor and they can't influence Fedor's supremacy of that era.


Fedor just came from a time when fighters were either big or good and now the fact he is to damn small for HW has became clear. He also seems to have lost interest in a lot of ways since the M-1 drama has continued to unfold.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Soakked said:


> He didn't train in a cage till after the GG fight. Ring and cage are two different environments especially for a striker known for cornering his opponents. I was never on the Cro Cop hype train but the guy was a serious fighter. To make such a transition at such a late period of ones career can take your heart out of it, which obviously happened in a dramatic way with CC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty much this post... but I also agree with Sonnen that something is off over there. Either the competition isn't as good as we thought (Shogun is the only one to really make a mark over here and he destroyed everyone in Japan), PRIDE was in some fishy business or something was going on with the fighters not being drug tested. I'm inclined to believe it's the first option out of those, honestly. A lot of promotions make their fighters out to be great fighters and like they're top level caliber when they aren't. I believe Strikeforce to be VERY guilty of this. Yes, Reem is an absolute monster, possibly one of the best HWs in the world. But the rest of them I'm really not buying. Werdum went 2-2 in the UFC and has since went 2-1 (almost 3-0) against Strikeforce's top HWs and from what I see he really has not improved that much. Antonio is sloppy standing but he's huge and good on the ground, but I'm not horribly impressed with him honestly. He just seems big, slow and sloppy most of the time until he's on the ground. Reminds me of a Tim Sylvia/Lesnar type, though not nearly as fast or explosive as the latter. The rest of their divisions I see as pretty weak, especially now with Diaz and Shields missing, all that's left that I believe can be top competition is Melendez. But a lot of people still see quite a few Strikeforce fighters as legitimate threats (the UFC HW vs SF HW debate) to the UFC. That's how I feel PRIDE was for the most part. There were a few fighters there that were very good (Shogun) but there were a lot who I felt were over inflated. Not trying to hate, just saying.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

The_Senator said:


> Chael Sonnen made a few fair points about Wanderlei, Mirko and Fedor in one of his most recent interviews.
> 
> "Wanderlei's gonna go 22 straight wins in Japan and he can't win 2 straight in America? Mirko Cro Cop's gonna win all those fights in Japan and he can't beat anyone in America? Fedor's gonna win all those fights in Japan and he's 3-2 in America, one of those wins is over a guy who was flipping tires..."
> 
> ...


They're just past their prime, and to a certain extent, the sport has passed them by. It's like saying the UFC sucks because Tito sucks, Liddell sucks, and Couture sucks--they were great 5 years ago, too, but have lost a ton of fight since then.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

Liddellianenko said:


> 1 word - steroids. I'm convinced Wanderlei, CroCop, Shogun and Filho were on roids back in Pride, which clearly had jack for testing and actually encouraged steroid use because it made for more aggressive fights. But when they came to the US, they probably figured it was safer to drop it because the testing is stricter.
> 
> There's interviews with Chuck where he states he was offered "blowfish juice" by the pride management themselves, for "enhancing strength and stamina" right before the pride GP. There's also many interviews of Rampage stating that he suspected many of the others were on roids but he avoided taking them.
> 
> ...


So you really think the UFC is clean? I think it's pretty well known that they're very commonplace in UFC. Just because they don't get caught doesn't mean they're not using.


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## Hennessy (Feb 28, 2011)

i cant believe how much spotlight this dude gets for his insane and dumb ramblings all the time. 

how many threads here are related to this dudes stupid and attention seeking, comments?

The worst thing is it works. 

its the same thing with stupid trainwreck tv shows like jersey shore and all that bullsh#t.
Its just the lowest form of taste and entertaining but apperently people have a need to see, or in Sonnens case, to hear that crap.

its amazing. i didnt want to post anything in regards to that because i dont want to support him or waste my time on this when I could do better things like watching porn or having a chat with a can of beans. 
but this ONE TIME i just had to make a statement.

not even mad at sonnen really. im mad that this strategy of his indeed pays off. 
same with tv talk shows. not the mental patients that are guests on these shows are the real dumbasses, its the people going there to see them...


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

The_Senator said:


> Well, Fedor is not that old, he's just 34 (soon to be 35). He didn't take tons of punishment during his PRIDE fights comparing to NOG or Wanderlei, so he shouldn't be far from his prime based solely on his age... His skills are still where they should be, so, applying Sonnen's interesting logic about fighters from the same era (Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis ), Fedor still HAS TO be much better than Shane Carwin, Frank Mir, Fabricio Werdum, Roy Nelson, Cheick Kongo and Brock Lesnar to justify his undisputed #1 status among all heavyweights of HIS era, because these guys are the same age or very close to Fedor's. Now, JDS and Cain are much younger, they started MMA much later, so they are the TRUE new generation, no doubt. We can't compare those 2 to Fedor and they can't influence Fedor's supremacy of that era.


Don't kid yourself, 34 years old is old for a professional athlete (even for a fighter). And Fedor doesn't "have to" be better than others his age to prove that he was better in his prime; different people age at different rates and slow down in terms of fighting skill at different times. 
Chael Sonnen talked about how there's no such thing as a fighter's "prime" which is just absurd and obvious RL trolling.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

Leed said:


> Compared to who? Jon Jones? Yes. But you don't see Anderson getting old (he is 2 years older) or Machida (only 1 year older). And there are more examples.
> It's weird in MMA though. It's like, your 'real life age' doesn't even matter, but what matters is your 'MMA age', aka how long have you've been in the sport.


Age affects people differently, and alot of it depends what you've put your body through. Wanderlei Silva, for example, has put himself through the grinder for a long time and it shows - he's only 35 and he slurs and looks like he's 50 - too much punishment over the years.


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## kc1983 (May 27, 2007)

Soakked said:


> Different rules, different ring, different match up, different era, different primes. I think it's apples and oranges to me. How would they have done in UFC during that same time period? How would UFC fighters of that time would have done in pride? There are too many variables to make such a comparison a valid one.


This.

As much trash as Chael likes to talk he has never achieved and will never achieve the same level of success as Mirko, Fedor or Wanderlei. I don't care if Sonnen did go 5 rounds with Anderson and was on his way to a decision, he came up short in the end. 

From a pure entertainment/fighting standpoint I think Sonnen is a great fighter with some impressive wins and some of the shit that comes out of his mouth is hilarious...but it seems like ALL he does lately is crap on other fighters and calls everybody out just so he can harness some attention and remain somewhat relevant. The guy is a typical grade "A" scum bag a$$hole at the end of the day. Good fighter or not, I just can't stand the guy and hope he gets obliterated in his next fight.


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## Indestructibl3 (Apr 2, 2009)

Sorry Chael ... but this is one thing I don't agree with you on. They're all legends of the sport and didn't suck, don't suck and will not suck.


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## lutalivre1989 (Jan 10, 2011)

In my opinion a lot of people in the mma community really lack respect for the legends and pioneers of the sport.

Chuck, Randy, Hughes, Gracie, Fedor, Wandy, Crocop, Nog, Hendo...these guess all are legends of the sport! All of them either had awesome title reigns, winning streaks and just a ton of insane fights. It's a fact that MMA really has evolved in the last years and that the competition nowadays is on a different level but that does not take anything away from all these guys accomplishments.

When you look at other sports I really don't see that much disrespect. Boxing: Roy Jones Jr., Ali, Tyson, Holyfield, Frazier, Foreman...they all had some devastating losses in the end of their carreer but still everyone rightfully considers them all time greats. 

It's the same in football, american football, basketball and almost any other other sport. It comes the time for almost any athlete when they begin to loose and get surpassed by others but that still does not mean that all of a sudden a former superstar becomes a total can over night. 

When nowadays Roy Jones Jr looses his fights in devastating fashion the boxing fans say: "Man it's sad to see him go out like that he used to be unstoppable in his prime. He is a legend!"
Now in MMA when a guy like Chuck or Fedor begin to loose you hear all those guys saying how they never were that good, they only fought cans, they had luck with the judges, they fought in the weaker organisation.

Just respect the legends for what they have accomplished. Are most of these guys still relevant in their division? Probably not but that does not mean that they suddenly turn into cans that never had any skills at all.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

Indestructibl3 said:


> Sorry Chael ... but this is one thing I don't agree with you on. They're all legends of the sport and didn't suck, don't suck and will not suck.


5 stages of a great fighter:

1. Who is this guy?
2. This guy's got potential;
3. He's unbeatable;
4. He sucks;
5. He was never really that good.


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## adolf (Jan 25, 2011)

Totally agreed with Chael , there are so many posibly reasons, posibility they were on roids, past their primes, getting older, they never werent that good, the fact is they all are a desilucion


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## Indestructibl3 (Apr 2, 2009)

mastodon2222 said:


> 5 stages of a great fighter:
> 
> 1. Who is this guy?
> 2. This guy's got potential;
> ...


Lol nicely put.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Here what people tend to forget a ufc fighter fights maybe 3 times a year.fedor has 32 fights before his official lost, obviously mileage caught up to him. Crocop had 32 fights plus his kickboxing days. These guys were all good and would have been good in the ufc if they still had anything left in the tank. As for wandy he is the only questionable one, he had a lot of fights and a lot bare knuckle fights. However i think he was not as elite as fedor or crocop, he was just a good striker with heart of a warrior.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

The problem is the fights *were* fixed in Pride. Everybody in MMA in Japan knows this. It was run by the Yakuza simple as that. Yakuza pay you lots of money to fight, and they tell you to do something you do it. 

Those guys were earning peanuts back then so its hard to blame them going there and making some cash. Its not as if the sport was in the worlds eye demanding integrity from role models

All of those fighters sonnen is talking about are good fighters. I would say Nog is a great fighter. Fedor we'll never really know. Cro Cop, what a fu**in disaster and a let down. "Right foot stuck to the floor, left foot stuck up his ass" Wandy, well the point about him getting destroyed in the UFC and then going to be a legend in pride is pretty valid. 

The fact is, because none of them have been UFC champs or done well in the UFC (except nog who I think has performed well) so what Sonnen says is correct to a degree. Its just the way he says it people don't like. 
I mean if you come out and say King Kong Bundy was a great fighter you'd be laughed at for being so naive as to think wrestling wasnt fixed. Its the same with Pride. It was fixed for betting, and to think otherwise is naive. Go down the local sushi restaurant and ask the chef and he will tell you. I wouldn't be talking too much shit about it either if I was one of those fighters - 'oh yeah those yakuza guys, they are gay, they fixed everything in pride". So thats why its not talked about.

Sonnen is the king of trash talk, the gag about the bus is brilliant. But jeez I wouldn't be going to brazil any time soon if I were him!


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

i herd about pride fights being fixed but would anit the logically move would have been fixed the tsuyoshi kohsaka vs fedor 2 fight. Have a japanese fighter win the pride belt in japan while defeating a man who was 22-1?


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## ESPADA9 (Oct 13, 2006)

This is awesome, Sonnen has so many of you dancing on the end of a string with his act, everyone is talking about him, speculating, wishing him death.

95% of what he says is an act, anyone who has trained with him or knows him will tell you this.

The guy hasn't fought in how long (and that was a LOSS) and he's one of the most talked about fighters on the planet.

Brilliant.

I just want to see him fight because his fighting is almost as good as his manipulation of the fans and media.


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

Not so much that they suck, but more so that they were overrated. Especially Fedor. People had him ranked as the best fighter in the world at one point. Nonsense.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

mastodon2222 said:


> So you really think the UFC is clean? I think it's pretty well known that they're very commonplace in UFC. Just because they don't get caught doesn't mean they're not using.


Nope, just scroll a few inches after my original one and read my next post. I think the UFC is clean-er but obviously it's far from clean.

But there is some testing and punishments, and for legends with a long legacy overseas where there was no testing, the stakes are much higher than some new young dude. One failed test, and their whole legacy is tarnished. 

So it wouldn't be irrational for them to quit in a higher risk environment is what I'm saying, and the drastic symptoms literally months after coming over support my theory. 

I mean it's one thing if you lose your chin or get out-timed by younger guns at age 38 like Chuck, Couture etc. But if you suddenly start wheezing in Rd 1 at age 29, fall into inexplicable self-pity and suicidal behavior at age 30, or lose half your muscle size, vascularity and definition within months, then it's a bit more fishy.


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## burgito (Aug 2, 2009)

*Chael: Pride was fake!*

http://www.mmafighting.com/video/chael-sonnen-backstage/

Ref wearing ear pieces...

Cro Cop Wandy and Fedor winning all those fights...


Do you agree ??


My thought..

I usually don't take chael to seriously, he's said some pretty outrages things. Things that made me laugh and things that made me mad!! This...Has really got me wondering... Were the fights *wrestling fake* I don't think so... 

But my question to you is... Were some the fights fixed?? 

I look back and say...maybe.... It seems weird that no one brought it up before.


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## METALLICA_RULES (Feb 12, 2011)

Wasn't one of Mark Coleman's fights fixed?

As i am a casual fan of mma, i wouldn't know. But from what Pride fights I have seen, it looked full contact to me.


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## Fieos (Mar 26, 2007)

Pretty sure Rampage eluded to that in an interview. He talked about how he thought they might have given him food poisoning or something if I recall correctly.

But then again, it is Rampage...

And I definitely wouldn't say it was completely fake, but in some cases I wouldn't doubt it was fixed.


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## METALLICA_RULES (Feb 12, 2011)

Well, when you bring the Japanese underworld into the picture, it is possible that some of the fight's could've been fixed.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

look here everyone has an opinion on this


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## METALLICA_RULES (Feb 12, 2011)

There is enough evidence for me to agree with Sonnen. Although it also could be the different rules that made Silva, Fedor and Mirko a bit confused maybe? I dunno.


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## METALLICA_RULES (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm kinda confused, because Fedor, Silva and Cro Cop were all great in Pride yet are bad in the UFC and America? Hmm... fishy is a word to describe it.


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## MMAnWEED (Aug 8, 2010)

No doubt some of the fights were fixed but I would like to think that most were not. I know Cro Cop's fight with Yuji Nagata was fixed.

Also Fedor vs Nagata. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN-MZUUU1tU

Look closely at 2:40... Fedor misses and Nagata goes down.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

Fedors face after the fight says it all


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

METALLICA_RULES said:


> I'm kinda confused, because Fedor, Silva and Cro Cop were all great in Pride yet are bad in the UFC and America? Hmm... fishy is a word to describe it.


They were younger in Pride. Now they're older and facing young wrecking machines. Pride may have had a couple fixed fights, but that was not a fixed organization by any means.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

MMAnWEED said:


> No doubt some of the fights were fixed but I would like to think that most were not. I know Cro Cop's fight with Yuji Nagata was fixed.
> 
> Also Fedor vs Nagata.
> 
> ...


It looked to me like he clipped him in the back of the head. Not solid or flush but certainly clipped. Also Another thing was Nagata through his body language, throughout the fight after first being knocked down didn't want anything to do with the fight. When you are intimidated softer punches have more effect on you.

I'm not saying that some Pride fights weren't fixed, I'm sure a good number were, I just don't see it in that fight, but again who knows.


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

MMAnWEED said:


> No doubt some of the fights were fixed but I would like to think that most were not. I know Cro Cop's fight with Yuji Nagata was fixed.
> 
> Also Fedor vs Nagata.
> 
> ...


That is zero evidence of fight fixing. Fedor caught his leg and did what Anderson Silva did to James Irvin. The difference being the first punch didn't do nearly as much damage, it grazed him. I don't disagree that there was fight fixing, but there was none of it here.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

I don't think he's talking about the first knock down, but rather the one around 2:41 or so off of a left hook. Still looked to me like he clipped him, and his opponent simply didn't want more.


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## sg160187 (Apr 11, 2010)

http://youtu.be/mqp7vGi4_Fs

I wouldn't say many of these were fake :sarcastic12:

Sonnen is fake his own manager even told people that he doesn't mean anything he says when he is talking trash. How much more fake can you get?


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

METALLICA_RULES said:


> Wasn't one of Mark Coleman's fights fixed?
> 
> As i am a casual fan of mma, i wouldn't know. But from what Pride fights I have seen, it looked full contact to me.


Yeah look it up on you tube to see the fight and it's pretty clear.


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

well, i do think some fights were ''easy fights'', were fixed so that wandy and fedor kept on winning, but i think majority were just normal fights and they were that good

though when they say fixed it doesnt mean these guys had the whole fight planned like wrestling lol...only the worst orgs do that, they were fixed in the sense that the other guy was going to take a dive

i dont even think wandy, fedor and cro cop even knew some guys were paid to take dives, but i wouldnt doubt they were

pride started to become heavily influenced by the yakuza once it started becoming very big...it would seem logical that the yakuza would want pride to get bigger and protect their best fighters by paying other fighters to take dives

of course i dont believe this 100% and i think most of their fights were wars, im just saying i wouldnt dout some fights were fixed

though everything was full contact...thats obvious, even stevie wonder would tell you that


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Fieos said:


> Pretty sure Rampage eluded to that in an interview. He talked about how he thought they might have given him food poisoning or something if I recall correctly.
> 
> But then again, it is Rampage...
> 
> And I definitely wouldn't say it was completely fake, but in some cases I wouldn't doubt it was fixed.


This ^


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## ACTAFOOL (Dec 10, 2008)

DonRifle said:


> The problem is the fights *were* fixed in Pride. Everybody in MMA in Japan knows this. It was run by the Yakuza simple as that. Yakuza pay you lots of money to fight, and they tell you to do something you do it.
> 
> Those guys were earning peanuts back then so its hard to blame them going there and making some cash. Its not as if the sport was in the worlds eye demanding integrity from role models
> 
> ...


actually every mma org in japan has influence from the yakuza, and pretty much every1 knows this, pride got shut down because it became public news, but every1 knew about it

the yakuza just want the org to pay them so they can keep running their company, they do this even with small orgs like sengouku, and you can bet dream is involved with them also

i do agree that some fights were fixed though, pride was becoming huge and i think the bigger it became the more influence the yakuza had on it, they wanted more money, wanted to protect the top fighters, i wouldnt say the fights were fixed in a wrestling sort of way, its obvious the contact was real

but i wouldnt be surprised to know that some fighters were paid to take dives against guys like wandy, cro cop or fedor, they also matched them up many times with guys they knew werent good enough to beat them

i do think they were protected, but they still had amazing legit wars also


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

DonRifle said:


> The problem is the fights *were* fixed in Pride. Everybody in MMA in Japan knows this. It was run by the Yakuza simple as that. Yakuza pay you lots of money to fight, and they tell you to do something you do it.
> 
> Those guys were earning peanuts back then so its hard to blame them going there and making some cash. Its not as if the sport was in the worlds eye demanding integrity from role models
> 
> ...


I agree with you about Nogueira. I highly doubt he was payed to take all that punishment in PRIDE. I have nothing but respect for him despite his unsuccessful run in the UFC where he gets dropped and beat up in almost every fight. He still managed to grab the UFC belt once and that's huge. 

Now, Sonnen made a mistake saying that Fedor is 3-2 in USA. In fact, Fedor is 4-2, because he also fought and beat Coleman in Vegas. But still, this was old Mark Coleman whose best days were evidently behind, and he didn't deserve the title shot...

P.S.
"Lil Nog tried to feed a carrot to a bus, while Big Nog petted it". God, I love this "true story"


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Fedor and Crocop would have done fine at LHW and it isn't like Crocop has zero UFC wins he is 4 and 5 in the UFC and two of those losses are against Mir and JDS and another is a fight against Kongo where he got kneed in the balls like 15 times and somehow Kongo didn't get DQed. The bottomline is though those guys are both LHWs and should have made the cut as soon as a real heavyweight division started forming. Chael can't beat brazilians I guess that makes all of his wins not matter as well. If he fights Andy, Maia, and Rousimar in order he is out of the UFC.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

xeberus said:


> Well..
> 
> Wandy, Cro cop and fedor suck in the same way that: randy couture sucks, chuck Liddell sucks, Royce Gracie sucks, matt Hughes sucks.. Some say it's time, changing of the guard, new generation w.e at one point these were the best fighters in the world.





Toxic said:


> Fedor just came from a time when fighters were either big or good and now the fact he is to damn small for HW has became clear. He also seems to have lost interest in a lot of ways since the M-1 drama has continued to unfold.


Why has the thread continued after these two posts? They nailed it, IMO. :thumb02:


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