# Sherdog sums up the Fedor situation



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

I'm not usually a big fan of Sherdog's writers, but I do think they make some valid points.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/The-Fedor-Backlash-Continues-25228


When the time comes that your difficulties outside of the ring overshadow what you’ve done inside of it, some course correction is probably in order. But it might be too late for Fedor Emelianenko.

When Emelianenko became a free agent in 2009, the best money and quality of opposition was in the UFC. For reasons that might have a lot to do with the obtuse strategy of his management and a little to do with the abrasive negotiating approach of Dana White, Emelianenko headed for Strikeforce instead. He fought once and will fight again Saturday, occasionally taking time out to tell media that retirement is looking more and more attractive.

If Emelianenko were wrapping up a UFC stint now, that talk would probably be universally respected. Because he’s busied himself with Brett Rogers and Hong Man Choi, the reaction has been divisive. Half the fans think he’s accomplished it all; half think he’s bailing out through the kitchen, unenthused at the idea of having to fight huge wrestlers populating White’s business.

No fighter can ever walk through every single valuable contender in his era. Even Anderson Silva, so close to cleaning out the UFC’s middleweight division, might one day be historically criticized for never having faced Ronaldo “Jacare” Souza or Yushin Okami. But Emelianenko walking now would be akin to Silva dodging Dan Henderson, Rich Franklin, and Nate Marquardt. Brock Lesnar, Shane Carwin and Cain Velasquez aren’t just placeholders: they’re real, relevant challenges that are going to be very curious omissions from Emelianenko’s record.

Emelianenko could be argued as being from a different era. He made his debut in 1999, nearly a decade before the UFC’s current heavyweight crop started competing. And while it may be traditional for aging fighters to sacrifice themselves in a torch-passing beating, Emelianenko may not want to be party to it. Considering that most fighters have to be sedated and dragged from the ring, it would be an incredibly mature -- and possibly influential -- move.

But Lesnar beating Emelianenko does not make him the more accomplished fighter. (Already 32, Lesnar isn’t likely to have a career as ambitious.) What’s relevant is that Emelianenko took on the best the sport had to offer while he could. 10 or 20 years from now, no one is going to remember White barking or promotional politics. All they’re going to understand is that Emelianenko was in good health at a time Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin were eating fighters alive. And he didn’t do anything about it.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Cue all the "Fedor doesn't need to prove anything" and cue "Fedor is dodging everyone" talk now...


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## HaVoK (Dec 31, 2006)

As a fan Fedor has plenty to prove to me. Many will disagree and that is fine, but there are many who will agree. Including much of the media and they will ultimately determine his legacy like it or not. Many of the big names Fedor has on his record were smaller fighters moving up or exUFC fighters on their way down. 

To be considered on the current best fighters in the world you have to constantly fight the current best fighters in the world. Fedor has not done that in years. He is given special treatment from a lot of fans. The same special treatment would not be granted to other fighters. 

As I noted earlier...as a fan Fedor has plenty to prove to me. No amount of Fedor nuthugging is going to change that opinion. If you disagree with a Fedor fan they claim you dont know MMA...lol. I have been following the sport as long as anyone. Most likely longer than many of the diehard Fedor believers. Unlike many of them I was watching Fedor fights as they happened not watching them on youtube 5 or more years later.


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## canning (May 28, 2007)

When Strikeforce closes it's doors he will have no where else to go. UFC or retire.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

canning said:


> When Strikeforce closes it's doors he will have no where else to go. UFC or retire.


Is Strikeforce in money trouble? I haven't heard anything about it, but it wouldn't surprise me.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Is Strikeforce in money trouble? I haven't heard anything about it, but it wouldn't surprise me.


No, anyone who thinks SF is closing up shop anytime soon is just being crazy. They won't be challenging the UFC probably ever, but they aren't going the way of Affliction either, too much talent on their roster, it's actually drawing eyes.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Life B Ez said:


> No, anyone who thinks SF is closing up shop anytime soon is just being crazy. They won't be challenging the UFC probably ever, but they aren't going the way of Affliction either, too much talent on their roster, it's actually drawing eyes.


I don't know if you're correct on drawing eyes. Strikeforce's ratings have had a steady decline since Fedor last fought. I don't think they will go out of business either, but I do think they will go back to being just a local small show. I don't see them getting anywhere close to the UFC.


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## canning (May 28, 2007)

Life B Ez said:


> No, anyone who thinks SF is closing up shop anytime soon is just being crazy. They won't be challenging the UFC probably ever, but they aren't going the way of Affliction either, too much talent on their roster, it's actually drawing eyes.


They've been in a steady decline in viewers and the last few events didn't do them any favors.

They have to pay that talent remember?


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

What pisses me off about American mentality is the fact they can't see past the fact that Fedor should be in the UFC because he got offered more money there, its like you are a nation just obsessed with greed honestly you should really take a look at yourselves and the BS you write, Fedor probabally has all the Money he needs and is not greedy enough to go running after on his knees ready to pull it out of Dana Whites ass.

I seriously think that Fedor just thinks "fcuk you UFC" after all the trash they have talked on him, all the discredit Dana has thrown his way, would you go and work for a person who has treated you like that if you could get over your greedy self and enlight to a new level of human nature like Fedor has achieved.

I take great pleasure in knowing that its very unlikely that Fedor gives two ticks what the UFC nut huggers think about him because you guys are the joke, keep believing in your unproven heavy weight champion who is yet to beat a single creditable opponent, because the truth is he is the champion of nothing except PPV sales, while Fedor remains the true champion of fighters.


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## munkie (Sep 28, 2009)

KillerShark1985 said:


> What pisses me off about American mentality is the fact they can't see past the fact that Fedor should be in the UFC because he got offered more money there, its like you are a nation just obsessed with greed honestly you should really take a look at yourselves and the BS you write, Fedor probabally has all the Money he needs and is not greedy enough to go running after on his knees ready to pull it out of Dana Whites ass.
> 
> I seriously think that Fedor just thinks "fcuk you UFC" after all the trash they have talked on him, all the discredit Dana has thrown his way, would you go and work for a person who has treated you like that if you could get over your greedy self and enlight to a new level of human nature like Fedor has achieved.
> 
> I take great pleasure in knowing that its very unlikely that Fedor gives two ticks what the UFC nut huggers think about him because you guys are the joke, keep believing in your unproven heavy weight champion who is yet to beat a single creditable opponent, because the truth is he is the champion of nothing except PPV sales, while Fedor remains the true champion of fighters.


_Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah_. About sums up 90% of your post. I agree somewhat with the shit that Dana has talked on him maybe adding to why he won't fight there. I agree Fedor doesn't give a shit about what people think about him. But not even a Fedor sack gobbler like you can say that he's the best in the world, now. And as far as saying Brock is unproven, Fedor is unproven. He beat the best in his day. But he's not proven against the best now. Bottom line, Fedor isn't the best in the world now. I'm sick and tired of you turds that are so in love with Fedor always saying Fedor is the greatest. He will be one of the greatest, historically. Beating up Brett Rogers doesn't make you even good. If he beat Werdum, he's still not great. Then if he beats Overeem, he won't, but if he does, he's still not the best NOW. He is one of the all time greats, but him being at the top of any rankings, HW or p4p, is complete nonsense.


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## Ivan (Feb 24, 2007)

And if Brock doesn't beat Fedor then he wont be considered one of the best also.. you have to beat the best to be the best.. Fedor is or was the best.. so now what..


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## munkie (Sep 28, 2009)

Ivan said:


> And if Brock doesn't beat Fedor then he wont be considered one of the best also.. you have to beat the best to be the best.. Fedor is or was the best.. so now what..


What do you mean now what? Fedor _*IS NOT*_ the best! Get off his nuts. Besides, I'm not making any arguments saying that Brock should be considered the best. Regardless, every single fight that Brock has in the UFC is against far better competition than what Fedor fights now. The better fighter beats the better competition. You can't even begin to argue that Fedor's competition is even on the same planet of who Brock fights every single time. Hell, I'd take Heath Herring over Brett Rogers, easily, maybe even over glassjawed Arlovski and again, easily over Werdum. Fedor fights minor league competition and that can't be argued. Again, that means he _*CAN'T*_, currently be called the best.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I don't know if you're correct on drawing eyes. Strikeforce's ratings have had a steady decline since Fedor last fought. I don't think they will go out of business either, but I do think they will go back to being just a local small show. I don't see them getting anywhere close to the UFC.


Let's be honest, the last couple shows haven't exactly had high priority names on the cards. The last was Dan Henderson, but he's not exactly a huge draw. The next CBS show will have more eyes imo just because people talking about the brawl from the last event and Fedor always gets people to tune in.



canning said:


> They have to pay that talent remember?


Yeah, but CBS and Showtime have more money than the UFC by far and they have said they are in for the long haul, if that's true, they won't have a problem paying anyone.


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## nezlam (Nov 8, 2009)

munkie said:


> What do you mean now what? Fedor _*IS NOT*_ the best! Get off his nuts. Besides, I'm not making any arguments saying that Brock should be considered the best. Regardless, every single fight that Brock has in the UFC is against far better competition than what Fedor fights now. The better fighter beats the better competition. You can't even begin to argue that Fedor's competition is even on the same planet of who Brock fights every single time. Hell, I'd take Heath Herring over Brett Rogers, easily, maybe even over glassjawed Arlovski and again, easily over Werdum. Fedor fights minor league competition and that can't be argued. Again, that means he _*CAN'T*_, currently be called the best.


Fedor is the best HW in the world, He hasn't lost a fight in over a decade and destroyed all best HW's in Pride and that was a very deep division back then. Brock has a hand full of fights and lost one fight to a overrated Frank Mir. Chill out with the UFC koolaid. He is simply the best MMA fighter to ever enter a cage or ring in the short history of MMA.


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## UrbanBounca (Sep 13, 2009)

nezlam said:


> Fedor is the best HW in the world, He hasn't lost a fight in over a decade and destroyed all best HW's in Pride and that was a very deep division back then. Brock has a hand full of fights and lost one fight to a overrated Frank Mir. Chill out with the UFC koolaid. He is simply the best MMA fighter to ever enter a cage or ring in the short history of MMA.


"Fedor is the best heavyweight in the world."***

You better get used to seeing that big 'ole asterick next to his name, followed by something around the lines of, _"Fedor Emelianenko never fought anyone in the UFC stable, which was considered the best HW division in the world."_


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## munkie (Sep 28, 2009)

nezlam said:


> Fedor is the best HW in the world, He hasn't lost a fight in over a decade and destroyed all best HW's in Pride and that was a very deep division back then. Brock has a hand full of fights and lost one fight to a overrated Frank Mir. Chill out with the UFC koolaid. He is simply the best MMA fighter to ever enter a cage or ring in the short history of MMA.


In that decade, he hasn't fought anybody that's worth a shit since 2005. He fought a one dimensional 205 lber (Mark Coleman), a nobody with a losing record (Mark Hunt), a natural 185 lber (Matt Lindland), another nobody with a losing record (Hong Man Choi), a UFC dropout clearly on the downslide, who also lost to Ray Mercer immediately after (Tim Sylvia), a beast, but a beast with glass jaw (Andrei Arlovski), and an overweight tire mechanic named Brett Rogers. I think it should be said he was losing the last 2 until he threw a wild haymaker. Anyways, which one of those fights means he's currently the best Heavyweight? You even said it yourself, he beat the best *THEN*. That means he was the best _*THEN*_. Being the best _*then*_ does not mean he's the best now. He will be one of the best MMA fighters to ever fight for his past exploits. But nobody with half-a-brain can make a sensible argument that he's the best now. Before you start arguing that Fedor is god, please take a minute and give some serious thought about the fights I've mentioned and if you have any sense at all, you will have to know what I say is true.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

nezlam said:


> Fedor is the best HW in the world, He hasn't lost a fight in over a decade and destroyed all best HW's in Pride and that was a very deep division back then. Brock has a hand full of fights and lost one fight to a overrated Frank Mir. Chill out with the UFC koolaid. He is simply the best MMA fighter to ever enter a cage or ring in the short history of MMA.


Frank Mir is better than anyone Fedor has beaten since PRIDE.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

Another thing that pisses me off about a lot of so called MMA fans, is the false believe they have that unless someone is fighting for the UFC then they are not worth a shit, fcuking idiots, the UFC fighters are nothing but hyped up better by a bigger promotion, seriously wtf are you guys basing this information on.

Strikeforce at least has the bottle to face its fighters off against top fighters from other promotions and its fighters have a real dam good record of winning these showdowns, which makes the top guys at SF proven at a very high level.

What does the UFC do? cut all ties with other promotions and only allow its fighters to fight each other, only reason we can't see Brock vs Fedor to settle all disputes is because of the UFC, does it hurt Strikeforce, M-1 or Dream when they co-promote? Not at all and we the fans get to see good fights.

You guys say shit like "people outside the UFC are not fighting any legit names" while on the flip side UFC fighters are the only fighters been untested against the rest of the world, then when a ex-UFC champ like Arlovski comes over and get beat they are always "past it", Tim Sylvia was a top contender or Champ at the UFC HW division for how long, now been tested outside the UFC's self acclaimed worlds most elite, cant win sh1t, but this again is because "he is not the fighter he used to be" or because "the UFC has moved up loads since then" year right it was only 3 years ago since he was your champ, he leave and instantly you have JDS, Cain and Brock and you are just so much fcuking better that you have the right to discredit the rest of the worlds fighters.

I hate it when you guys hide behind the excuse "its bad business to co-promote" when looking at Dream and Striekforce this is not only proved to be untrue, but a lame excuse not to see fights. Well I guess it could prove very bad for the UFC's very hyped up and so very well marketed reputation if its fighters where to go against some of the top SF fighters like Fedor, Rogers and Overeem and get exposed.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> Another thing that pisses me off about a lot of so called MMA fans, is the false believe they have that unless someone is fighting for the UFC then they are not worth a shit, fcuking idiots, the UFC fighters are nothing but hyped up better by a bigger promotion, seriously wtf are you guys basing this information on.
> 
> Strikeforce at least has the bottle to face its fighters off against top fighters from other promotions and its fighters have a real dam good record of winning these showdowns, which makes the top guys at SF proven at a very high level.
> 
> ...


The difference is that other than Fedor, a majority the top ranked fighters are in the UFC. That's why when they fight each other they get more respect.


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> The difference is that other than Fedor, a majority the top ranked fighters are in the UFC. That's why when they fight each other they get more respect.


These rankings imo dont mean shit they are just speculation and unproven because the UFC is not willing to co-promote, and until they are then the UFC will unproven against other organisations to be fair.

Dont get me wrong the UFC does have some of the very best divisions in the world, dont think many can argue LW right through to LHW the UFC does have the best fighters, but its HW division sucks, aside from JDS and Cain they really have nothing, ether of those 2 fighters could take that belt so easily no matter who has it at the time, Carwin or Brock really does not matter, and they will as soon as they get the title shot, only real question is when they face each other, I really would question if they could get past Fedor or Overeem to get the SF HW title, that is a much harder challenge, which imo makes the elite end of the SF HW division much stronger.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> These rankings imo dont mean shit they are just speculation and unproven because the UFC is not willing to co-promote, and until they are then the UFC will unproven against other organisations to be fair.
> 
> Dont get me wrong the UFC does have some of the very best divisions in the world, dont think many can argue LW right through to LHW the UFC does have the best fighters, but its HW division sucks, aside from JDS and Cain they really have nothing, ether of those 2 fighters could take that belt so easily no matter who has it at the time, Carwin or Brock really does not matter, and they will as soon as they get the title shot, only real question is when they face each other, I really would question if they could get past Fedor or Overeem to get the SF HW title, that is a much harder challenge, which imo makes the elite end of the SF HW division much stronger.


The UFC LW division is still better than any other one promotion. Their HW division sucks? They have better HWs than anybody else. Let's say you rank Fedor #1, I don't agree, but then the rest of Strikeforce division isn't good. Overeem doesn't have a legit win at HW. Rogers is a joke. He would lose to guys like Kongo and Nelson. Werdum's was last seen in the UFC getting his lights turned out. So even if Fedor's #1 the 7 or 8 guys on the list belong to the UFC. By the way Overeem couldn't beat Lesnar, Carwin, JDS, Velasquez, Mir, or NOG (know that last one for sure since NOG beat him).


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> The UFC LW division is still better than any other one promotion. Their HW division sucks? They have better HWs than anybody else. Let's say you rank Fedor #1, I don't agree, but then the rest of Strikeforce division isn't good. Overeem doesn't have a legit win at HW. Rogers is a joke. He would lose to guys like Kongo and Nelson. Werdum's was last seen in the UFC getting his lights turned out. So even if Fedor's #1 the 7 or 8 guys on the list belong to the UFC. By the way Overeem couldn't beat Lesnar, Carwin, JDS, Velasquez, Mir, or NOG (know that last one for sure since NOG beat him).


You base this on what exactly?

see its this dumb ass opinion that sums up so many round here, how can you possibally say this to be a fact?

you are a dumb fcuk you have no basis what so ever to base your opinion on who Overeem or Rogers could and could not beat, how wait I see, Werdum a former HW contender at the UFC who I have no doubt you used to rate very highly before the Flash KO of JDS.

now lets look at some facts instead of your speculation, lets go back to the start of your champs career in june 2007 and see how tested he is, won 4 lost 1, without going into names personally I dont rate a single one of his opponents but that dont matter he still has 4 wins and 1 loss.

Overeem in this same time period since June 2007 has 9 wins 1 loss and 1 no contest in MMA along with a K-1 record of 5 wins and 2 losses.

So while Brock has just been fighting in his MMA a total of 5 fights, Overeem has had a total of 18 professional fights in which he has won 14 times, now you tell me who is the most proven fighter?

Oh wait I know where you are going your going to fall back on the "well Overeem has not fought anyone credible because he is not in the UFC excuse again aren't you. Yea you keep letting the UFC marketing machine telling you that so edventually you start to believe it you fcuking retard.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

KillerShark1985 said:


> You base this on what exactly?
> 
> see its this dumb ass opinion that sums up so many round here, how can you possibally say this to be a fact?
> 
> ...


First of all if you can't argue like an adult, meaning refraining from attacking someone personally, than you don't need to be in this forum. 

Secondly while Overeem has beaten more fighters. The only one that was ranked throughout his whole career at HW was Rogers. Now if you think that fat out of shape tire salesmen is a quality win, then there is something wrong. 

Apparently you don't consider a win over Frank Mir to be a quality win. Well Frank Mir finished both Sylvia and NOG. If wins over them doesn't mean you are a quality HW, doesn't that attack the credibility Fedor. Carwin has a win over Mir, again if the fighters Mir has beaten doesn't make him quality it questions Fedor's legitimacy. Velasquez has beaten NOG, Dos Santos has beaten Werdum/Cro Cop. So if wins over Werdum, NOG, CroCop, and Sylvia mean nothing why is Fedor great?


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## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

see you fell back on your "no fighter is a credible win unless he is in the UFC excuse again just like I knew you would, kind of makes arguing with you pointless unless you come to realise that are are good fighters outside the UFC also, I woudl love to see a list of fighters you think are good outside the UFC, you prob dont even know any.


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## munkie (Sep 28, 2009)

KillerShark1985 said:


> see you fell back on your "no fighter is a credible win unless he is in the UFC excuse again just like I knew you would, kind of makes arguing with you pointless unless you come to realise that are are good fighters outside the UFC also, I woudl love to see a list of fighters you think are good outside the UFC, you prob dont even know any.


Moron! Look at it this way, the best fighters from Pride, are now in the UFC. Clay Guida, a barely middle of the pack lightweight, was a Strikeforce champ. Nick Diaz, the SF Welterweight champ, got beat the **** up in the UFC. Regardless of your moronic thoughts, the UFC is the big leagues. You can't seriously argue that. I mean, Werdum is easily one of the top 5 in SF and he got beat by an overhyped LHW in Vera. You can feed me all the bs you want about how fighters improve and I will agree. But that doesn't change the fact that most of the top fighters in SF got beat up in the UFC. It's no secret, the best fighters everywhere want to fight in the UFC. Why the **** do you think Akiyama and Kang or Gomi all came over to fight in the UFC? It's because it is the big leagues. Regardless how dumb you really are, you can't make any sensible argument that the best fighters from around the ******* world are finding there way into the UFC. Alot of the nobodies and mid-tier talent fighters in the UFC were ******* monsters, and/or champs in whatever organization they started in.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Life B Ez said:


> Yeah, but CBS and Showtime have more money than the UFC by far and they have said they are in for the long haul, if that's true, they won't have a problem paying anyone.



Not to mention unlike Affliction or EliteXC they own their own arena in the HP Pavillion so they never have to pay to put on shows there.. and they do alot of shows there. They always have an outlet for a card. That in itself is pure revenue.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...Just do a wiki on Fedor like I just did. All the gold medals & accomplishments. The man has *22* 1st round finishes in 31 fights. His attitude, humbleness, sportsmanship, dominance & role model MMA character are without question the definition of a class A fighter. A pure fact is that Fedor has given us quite a few amazing fights. We owe him the biggest thanks for setting the highest bar. The man went Holland training with dutch kickboxers to improve his striking. It seems if he gets past Werdum, I feel he will likely go after Overeem for the title and why not. Even if he never signs with the UFC, his legendary status will never change...


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> By the way Overeem couldn't beat Lesnar, Carwin, JDS, Velasquez, Mir, or NOG (know that last one for sure since NOG beat him).


I agree that the UFC has 7 of the top 10 HW in the world, but I disagree with the last part of your post; the part I quoted.

I think Overeem would actually give Mir, current Nog, JDS, and Valasquez a hell of a fight. I'd see him even giving Lesnar and Carwin a bit of trouble.

Sure Valasquez and Lesnar might just outwrestle him, but he can strike with everyone else on the list any day of the week. 

This is all just my opinion, but I think Ubereem is a bit underrated.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Ape City said:


> I agree that the UFC has 7 of the top 10 HW in the world, but I disagree with the last part of your post; the part I quoted.
> 
> I think Overeem would actually give Mir, current Nog, JDS, and Valasquez a hell of a fight. I'd see him even giving Lesnar and Carwin a bit of trouble.
> 
> ...


Overeem would probably beat Mir and Nog in a rematch(only because he doesn't have the chin to get it to the ground anymore.) Neither guy has the wrestling to put him on the ground and they would get KO'd standing. 

He would lose to Carwin, Lesnar and Cain, they would just take him down and grind out a win or pound him out, his ground game isn't exactly amazing.

JDS poses the most interesting fight imo, JDS is a great striker with sick power as is Overeem and neither guy would want to hit the ground. That fight would be a war imo. I would give it to JDS if he got through the first, I don't think Overeem's cardio can hold up in an all out war.


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

I agree with that analysis.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Life B Ez said:


> Overeem would probably beat Mir and Nog in a rematch(only because he doesn't have the chin to get it to the ground anymore.) Neither guy has the wrestling to put him on the ground and they would get KO'd standing.
> 
> He would lose to Carwin, Lesnar and Cain, they would just take him down and grind out a win or pound him out, his ground game isn't exactly amazing.
> 
> JDS poses the most interesting fight imo, JDS is a great striker with sick power as is Overeem and neither guy would want to hit the ground. That fight would be a war imo. I would give it to JDS if he got through the first, I don't think Overeem's cardio can hold up in an all out war.


Mir had no qualms standing with Kongo and out-striking him. Mir gets better every fight, he didn't really showcase it when he got punched 30 times in the head till he was unconscious by Carwin.

Mir has become an excellent stand-up and top notch BJJ guy now.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Fedor is 33 and has been fighting for 10 years.

Lesnar is 32 and has been wrestling for 10 years. 

I know Wrestling is fake, but it takes a toll regardless. Lesnar as well as many other wrestlers have said that they were hurt far more wrestling than they ever have been doing MMA.

Right now, Lesnar and Fedor are on par. There's no excuse for "I want to retire" when Lesnar has taken the same beating for 10 years as well and is just beginning.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

TraMaI said:


> Fedor is 33 and has been fighting for 10 years.
> 
> Lesnar is 32 and has been wrestling for 10 years.
> 
> ...


Anderson Silva's 34 and he's been fighting #1 MW contenders for years now. 

Honestly, I would like to see a Silva VS Fedor fight at open weight. Even more so than Silva VS GSP.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

MrObjective said:


> Mir had no qualms standing with Kongo and out-striking him. Mir gets better every fight, he didn't really showcase it when he got punched 30 times in the head till he was unconscious by Carwin.
> 
> Mir has become an excellent stand-up and top notch BJJ guy now.


He got a little lucky against Kongo and while his striking has improved, Overeem is still way better.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Ape City said:


> I agree that the UFC has 7 of the top 10 HW in the world, but I disagree with the last part of your post; the part I quoted.
> 
> I think Overeem would actually give Mir, current Nog, JDS, and Valasquez a hell of a fight. I'd see him even giving Lesnar and Carwin a bit of trouble.
> 
> ...


I don't understand why people are so high on Overeem. The guy has not beaten any ranked HWs other than Brett "superoverrated" Rogers. Yes he can strike, but he's not good enough to beat any of the top HW's in the UFC. Maybe he beats NOG, just because of NOG's age, but I'm not convinced. Frank Mir would submit him.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I am completely on the Overeem Hype Train!

I believe, that he is without a question the most talented HW Striker today. I doupt anybody could beat him standing up. But one punch can change everything especially in HW.

If he joins the UFC today, I am sure he would make his way to a title shot against Brock. Brock is probably the only one who is able to beat him right now as well as Cain maybe. I even see Fedor losing to him if they met today.

JDS would Box with the best striker.

Nog is way past his prime and would probably even stand with him for long enough. Like he did in the Cain fight.

Mir is way to slow and would not get him to the ground at all. Overeems Wrestling and athletism would be way to much for Frank.

Roy Nelson.. No Comment! 

Kongo would probably be the most exciting striking battle we have seen in years. But he would lose as well!

Carwin would also try to Box with the best Striker.

Now Cain and Brock. Both guys could grind out a decision or TKO victory over him. But I see him catching one of them at least.

Big Ben could not keep up with Overeem's stamina!


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> I am completely on the Overeem Hype Train!
> 
> I believe, that he is without a question the most talented HW Striker today. I doupt anybody could beat him standing up. But one punch can change everything especially in HW.
> 
> ...


I don't know why Carwin woudn't take him down and pound him out too. While Overeem has great striking I don't agree that his striking is head and shoulders above the rest HW division. He has yet to prove himself against a top tier HW, until he does I won't believe the hype.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I don't know why Carwin woudn't take him down and pound him out too. While Overeem has great striking I don't agree that his striking is head and shoulders above the rest HW division. He has yet to prove himself against a top tier HW, until he does I won't believe the hype.


Overeem fights at the highest K-1 Level in the World! I just have to assume, that he is ahead of everybody in this department.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> Overeem fights at the highest K-1 Level in the World! I just have to assume, that he is ahead of everybody in this department.


We have seen a lot of other martial arts champions in mma, it doesn't always translate to mma. Will Toney's boxing translate to mma? Does Damian Maia's BJJ translate to mma dominance? You also are talking about Kickboxing. Is kickboxing as valuable as muay thai, or those who train in mma striking. Overeem being in strikeforce he doesn't need to worry about elbows, but if he were to fight in the ufc he would.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> We have seen a lot of other martial arts champions in mma, it doesn't always translate to mma. Will Toney's boxing translate to mma? Does Damian Maia's BJJ translate to mma dominance? You also are talking about Kickboxing. Is kickboxing as valuable as muay thai, or those who train in mma striking. Overeem being in strikeforce he doesn't need to worry about elbows, but if he were to fight in the ufc he would.


The elbows thing only counts for the ground..

You don't really see many Muay Thai fighters who really use elbows in a stand up fight. It's all Kickboxing plus the Muay Thai knees, wich are also allowed in K-1 as well. So there isn't anything new for Overeem in the stand up fight. On the ground he might be even more dangerous with his elbows in the UFC.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

munkie said:


> In that decade, he hasn't fought anybody that's worth a shit since 2005. He fought a one dimensional 205 lber (Mark Coleman), a nobody with a losing record (Mark Hunt), a natural 185 lber (Matt Lindland), another nobody with a losing record (Hong Man Choi), a UFC dropout clearly on the downslide, who also lost to Ray Mercer immediately after (Tim Sylvia), a beast, but a beast with glass jaw (Andrei Arlovski), and an overweight tire mechanic named Brett Rogers. I think it should be said he was losing the last 2 until he threw a wild haymaker. Anyways, which one of those fights means he's currently the best Heavyweight? You even said it yourself, he beat the best *THEN*. That means he was the best _*THEN*_. Being the best _*then*_ does not mean he's the best now. He will be one of the best MMA fighters to ever fight for his past exploits. But nobody with half-a-brain can make a sensible argument that he's the best now. Before you start arguing that Fedor is god, please take a minute and give some serious thought about the fights I've mentioned and if you have any sense at all, you will have to know what I say is true.


I agree with this, I think he's the best of the aging group of heavyweights but to be the best now he would have to fight in the UFC and beat a few top 5 guys.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> The elbows thing only counts for the ground..
> 
> You don't really see many Muay Thai fighters who really use elbows in a stand up fight. It's all Kickboxing plus the Muay Thai knees, wich are also allowed in K-1 as well. So there isn't anything new for Overeem in the stand up fight. On the ground he might be even more dangerous with his elbows in the UFC.


So if a guy dirty boxes, pushes against the cage goes for a takedown, then transitions to strking, K1 has prepared him for that?


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> So if a guy dirty boxes, pushes against the cage goes for a takedown, then transitions to strking, K1 has prepared him for that?


No K-1 can't prepare him for that. But thats why he trains MMA as well as an MMA fighter. Or do you thing he just trains for K-1?? Overeem is a Mixed Martial Artist, wich makes it even more damn impressive, that he can hang in there with the World Elite in K-1.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> No K-1 can't prepare him for that. But thats why he trains MMA as well as an MMA fighter. Or do you thing he just trains for K-1?? Overeem is a Mixed Martial Artist, wich makes it even more damn impressive, that he can hang in there with the World Elite in K-1.


But my point is that he has never beaten a top mma HW, so I'm not sold that he can.


----------



## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

UFC is without a doubt the cream or the heavyweight crop and to be honest there is not a promotion around that can boast a more talented heavyweight division, to say anything else is asinine.

It always brakes down to people trying to discredit a fighter with fighters he cant fight lol. 

Overeem is a very good fighter that would do well in the UFC, I'm not going to say he would be unbeaten but Im sure he would get a title shot at some point and I can say the same for Fedor top guy that would do well but the only way to be the champion is to beat him and I dont see either of them as being motivated enough to come to the UFC. (although I hope Im wrong)

Co promotion didnt kill boxing as Dana likes to say, it was extreme greed and MMA has some of the same issues. 

Strikeforce is still gearing up, they have a agenda and I think it eventually will bring them up or the UFC down, one way or the other the playing field should get a bit more level in the next few years but not without co-promotion. 

If you jerk the ability to do so away none of the smaller promotions would have much of a chance. Right now we have dream, strikeforce and bellator all in co-promotion to try and compete with the UFC and IMO its great for the fans and good for the fighters. 

Fedor and his management bug me in a lot of ways and till he steps in there and fights in the UFC he's just a big "what was" who ended up a "what could have been" non factor fighter same with Overeem.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

rockybalboa25 said:


> But my point is that he has never beaten a top mma HW, so I'm not sold that he can.


Thats very true yes, not in MMA yet but at least he did it in K-1. Wins over Hari and Aerts plus a very close decision against Remy are very impressive in my mind. And you must take into consideration that he just reached his Prime. He is still only 30 years old. Fedor will probably be his first huge name before he fights for the UFC. 

For me it's really enough, that he competes at the highest Kickboxing Level to give him a great chance in the UFC. Wrestler like Brock or Cain could and probably would grind him down but anybody else I see only losing..


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> Thats very true yes, not in MMA yet but at least he did it in K-1. Wins over Hari and Aerts plus a very close decision against Remy are very impressive in my mind. And you must take into consideration that he just reached his Prime. He is still only 30 years old. Fedor will probably be his first huge name before he fights for the UFC.
> 
> For me it's really enough, that he competes at the highest Kickboxing Level to give him a great chance in the UFC. Wrestler like Brock or Cain could and probably would grind him down but anybody else I see only losing..


Well wins in other sports don't impress me. When he beats a top tier HW, then I'll believe it.


----------



## MLD (Oct 15, 2006)

Any conversation about who might be the best HW brings out a lot of emotion. The name calling, the stereotyping about national attitudes, and a whole sundry of other reactions never fail to occur. What is it about the HW division that causes this? Other weight divisions don't have nearly as much controversy over the same discussion. There isn't the same kind of controversy in the MW division. There was some controversy in the LHW division until Shogun came to the UFC. Unless Fedor fights UFC fighters, we can only speculate who is best. So arguments will continue to be based purely on opinions and comparisons of who fought who and who might of won those fights to try to triangulate a potential outcome of fights that may never happen. It is what it is, speculation. No reason to get all worked up over speculation. 

Checking the facts available, Fedor has had a terrific career. He is extremely humble and is loved by many. He can be considered one of the greatest HWs of all time, but is he the greatest right now? He'd have to fight some of the other HWs considered to be the best right now to know that for sure. That may not happen. He isn't obligated to do so. If he chooses not to fight in the UFC for whatever reason that is his choice (and partly that of the other parties involved). As a fan I'd love to see him fight Brock, Carwin, Mir, Cain, etc. But I'm not going to hold my breath, nor will I say the legend that is Fedor will be diminished in any way because he didn't fight in the UFC. I guess I'm okay with having a little uncertainty in the HW division rankings.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Well the debate is over now.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Well the debate is over now.



Because of 1 loss?

Than it looks like any HW in world that is relevant has no place as #1 in MMA. Thanks for clarifying that rocky.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Because of 1 loss?
> 
> Than it looks like any HW in world that is relevant has no place as #1 in MMA. Thanks for clarifying that rocky.


You think Fedor is still the best in the world?


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> You think Fedor is still the best in the world?


I have always thought that Anderson Silva is the best in the world.

A loss won't change that at all.

I do however think that Fedor is the best HW.


----------



## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

Its a fact, Fedor was offered more money, better competition, and more noteriaty in the UFC. the only reason you dont go is if you dont want part 2 of that.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> I have always thought that Anderson Silva is the best in the world.
> 
> A loss won't change that at all.
> 
> I do however think that Fedor is the best HW.


A guy who just lost can't be ranked #1.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Number One*

I don't think the updated rankings will come out until after next weekend!


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> I don't think the updated rankings will come out until after next weekend!


Everything could change next weekend too. Lesnar vs Carwin has some big implications.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Change*

Well we know for a fact that should Brock win he will be the new number one of the world most likely. However, we aren't totally sure of what would happen if Shane won!


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Well we know for a fact that should Brock win he will be the new number one of the world most likely. However, we aren't totally sure of what would happen if Shane won!


I think either would be #1. They both have beaten Mir.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Either Number 1*

I'm with you there but I can see how people will probably argue otherwise. Though regardless of who wins there are alot of contenders lined up for a title shot!


----------



## Jesy Blue (May 8, 2009)

KillerShark1985 said:


> You guys say shit like "people outside the UFC are not fighting any legit names" while on the flip side UFC fighters are the only fighters been untested against the rest of the world, then when a ex-UFC champ like Arlovski comes over and get beat they are always "past it", Tim Sylvia was a top contender or Champ at the UFC HW division for how long, now been tested outside the UFC's self acclaimed worlds most elite, cant win sh1t, but this again is because "he is not the fighter he used to be" or because "the UFC has moved up loads since then" year right it was only 3 years ago since he was your champ, he leave and instantly you have JDS, Cain and Brock and you are just so much fcuking better that you have the right to discredit the rest of the worlds fighters.


1) using Timmy in any argument will fail... he was a paper champion in a time when the only relevant HW in the UFC were him and an on the downslide Andre... the two of them had like 4 fights in 2 years; it was sad on all parts. 

2) the choice to protect your investment by not letting your fighters into other organizations is not only a legitimate business choice but a smart one: if you like this guy you can ONLY see him through our shows & we pay top dollar for well kept safe environment for our fighters to be in and if they go to a crappy show that has not well kept cages, dirty dealing back room politics, not well trained refs and they get hurt there and cannot fight for a while/ever again... all that money you invested in that one fighter is wasted now. smart business to keep the ufc fighters separated from the other companies usually hurts the fan base, not the fighter or the company.




MrObjective said:


> Anderson Silva's 34 and he's been fighting #1 MW contenders for years now.
> 
> Honestly, I would like to see a Silva VS Fedor fight at open weight. Even more so than Silva VS GSP.


really? just never seemed interested in things like that. kind of like Machida vs Penn... wasn't an very interesting match up, just kind of happened


----------



## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I think either would be #1. They both have beaten Mir.


But Brock has a loss to mir, and his only other notable win is over randy. its not like hes fought murderer's row already or something.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Syxx Paq said:


> But Brock has a loss to mir, and his only other notable win is over randy. its not like hes fought murderer's row already or something.


I agree that Brock's lack of experience is a problem. I don't think anyone will b able to say anything if he beats Carwin. I mean that's two legit contenders that he's beaten within a year.


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I agree that Brock's lack of experience is a problem. I don't think anyone will b able to say anything if he beats Carwin. I mean that's two legit contenders that he's beaten within a year.


The great thing is if Carwin drops Lesnar inside of the first then everyone will say Brock is a can....don't you just love MMA.


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Brock is a can!


----------



## KillerShark1985 (Jan 6, 2010)

Life B Ez said:


> The great thing is if Carwin drops Lesnar inside of the first then everyone will say Brock is a can....don't you just love MMA.


No they will say Carwin is great, because the general illusion is if you win a fight outside the UFC then your opponent is a can, if you win a fight inside th UFC then you are great and one of the top fighters in the world, but remember this is just an illusion.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Illusion*

Yeah the UFC is not the standard for all world competition!


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

I really do enjoy the realization. It is is true that even the worst fighter can beat an equally crappy fighter and be catapulted into the ranks of the mma world if they happen to be in UFC.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*What?*

Fedor was not crappy!


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Ape City said:


> I really do enjoy the realization. It is is true that even the worst fighter can beat an equally crappy fighter and be catapulted into the ranks of the mma world if they happen to be in UFC.


Are you saying that Carwin and Brock are crappy?


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*What?*

Who said that Lesnar and Carwin are crappy?


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Who said that Lesnar and Carwin are crappy?


ape city


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Ape city*

What is this planet of the apes now?


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> What is this planet of the apes now?


That's the guys name, just read the rest of the thread.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Thread*

Either way that fight is going to be explosive!


----------



## HellRazor (Sep 24, 2006)

KillerShark1985 said:


> What pisses me off about American mentality is the fact they can't see past the fact that Fedor should be in the UFC because he got offered more money there, its like you are a nation just obsessed with greed honestly you should really take a look at yourselves and the BS you write, Fedor probabally has all the Money he needs and is not greedy enough to go running after on his knees ready to pull it out of Dana Whites ass.
> 
> I seriously think that Fedor just thinks "fcuk you UFC" after all the trash they have talked on him, all the discredit Dana has thrown his way, would you go and work for a person who has treated you like that if you could get over your greedy self and enlight to a new level of human nature like Fedor has achieved.
> 
> I take great pleasure in knowing that its very unlikely that Fedor gives two ticks what the UFC nut huggers think about him because you guys are the joke, keep believing in your unproven heavy weight champion who is yet to beat a single creditable opponent, because the truth is he is the champion of nothing except PPV sales, while Fedor remains the true champion of fighters.


Correction, while _Fabricio Verdum_ remains the true champion of fighters.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Fabricio Verdum*

How is he the true champion of fighters?


----------



## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

HellRazor said:


> Correction, while _Fabricio Verdum_ remains the true champion of fighters.


Yeah, please spell his name right....it's Werdum. I don't usually correct people, but come on....his name has been everywhere.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Werdum*

Not to mention he didn't earn any kind've championship!


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> A guy who just lost can't be ranked #1.


Who exactly did Brock Lesnar beat to become best HW in the world?


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Brock Lesnar*

Yeah I'm not sure if Mir counts as making someone number one in the world!


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Who exactly did Brock Lesnar beat to become best HW in the world?


You want to go through this again. Frank Mir who beat NOG and Sylvia, two people used to solidify Fedor's #1 status. Randy Couture, who beat Syliva and Coleman, two more guys who solidified Fedor's top status.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Competition*

Yeah and Carwin is going to be a big test for him!


----------



## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

People need to stop arguing over who deserves what in the HW division. The entire division has been and still is the weakest in terms of quantity and quality of talent. It probably always will be just because it is rare to be big enough and athletic.

That being said of course so and so is going to get a title shot easily. The same could be argued for almost all of the HW champs the UFC has had. It just the way it works when you don't have a lot of talent to work with.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Lack*

With guys like Cain and JDS you are saying the heavyweight division is lacking in quality and quantity?


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> You want to go through this again. Frank Mir who beat NOG and Sylvia, two people used to solidify Fedor's #1 status. Randy Couture, who beat Syliva and Coleman, two more guys who solidified Fedor's top status.


"I want to go through this again" 

Rocky quit it. That was a horrible display of mma knowledge because we both know that Just because Brock defated sombody who has "beat" NOG and Syliva doesn't mean that Brock has done it.

And Worst case scenerio it does. Than Fedor topples Brocks rank ten times over. Because Fedor personally acheived these victories. He didn't vicariously acheive them in the third person.

I'd put JDS in front of Brock Lesnar. Matter of fact I'd go on a limb and give JDS the number 1 spot.

His record is much more impressive. He's never fought to a decision in his entire carreer. And he holds a win over Fabricio Werdum.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Number 1 Spot*

Wow, JDS definately is not number one in the world!


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> "I want to go through this again"
> 
> Rocky quit it. That was a horrible display of mma knowledge because we both know that Just because Brock defated sombody who has "beat" NOG and Syliva doesn't mean that Brock has done it.
> 
> ...


Again Fedor's record in PRIDE is much more impressive. Of course like many, you don't seem to realize that was 4 years ago. Since then he hasn't done much to hold that spot. Then he lost his #1 spot. If you have a problem with his ranking maybe you should take it up with a majority of the people in this forum (check the current poll numbers) or since you obviously have great mma knowledge maybe you should take it up with the mma experts who all have Brock ranked #1. You hate Brock I get it. The thing is, I don't hate Fedor. I was never a huge fan of his in PRIDE, due to being a huge NOG fan, but I didn't dislike him. What I don't like is Fedor fans, who argue for Fedor regardless of what happens. Has Brock beaten everyone in the HW division? No but he does have two wins over top ten ranked fighters, he's the UFC champion, and he's the most physically gifted fighter in the class. After he beats Carwin, he will have three wins over top 10 fighters. Even if you accept Sylvia, Arlovski, and Rogers as top 10 fighters, that means that Fedor and Brock have the same record of top 10 HWs in the last 5 years 3-1.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Again Fedor's record in PRIDE is much more impressive. Of course like many, you don't seem to realize that was 4 years ago.


I don't seem to realize? You're funny rocky.

Here's one to boot. Brock Lesnar hasn't fought in a year. And only has 5 professional MMA fights. He's not that good. He's that hyped.





rockybalboa25 said:


> Then he lost his #1 spot. If you have a problem with his ranking maybe you should take it up with a majority of the people in this forum


That's what I'm doing.



rockybalboa25 said:


> (check the current poll numbers) or since you obviously have great mma knowledge maybe you should take it up with the mma experts who all have Brock ranked #1.


That's the funny thing. These "experts" have a guy with 4-1 record who hasn't fought in a year ranked as a #1 HW in the world. Its' a complete disrespect to guys like JDS, and other top HWs. Who have twice the record of Brock.




rockybalboa25 said:


> You hate Brock I get it.


No I don't. I completley disagree with the #1 ranking. I don't think he's earned that #1 ranking for a second. I have a love for the sport of MMA and I watch all these HWs in the mix and I beleive that some of them have earned a spot above Lesnar on that list.



rockybalboa25 said:


> What I don't like is Fedor fans, who argue for Fedor regardless of what happens.


You think I'm Fedor zombie? Nah dude, I have always said that Anderson Silva is the best p4p fighter in the world in my opinion.

I'm a more of a Jake Shields zombie. Fedor is in my top 10. But I will say even though he lost I think that he should lose his #1 ranking I won't argue that. Brock at #1 is what I am debating here.





rockybalboa25 said:


> Has Brock beaten everyone in the HW division? No but he does have two wins over top ten ranked fighters, he's the UFC champion, and he's the most physically gifted fighter in the class.


Two wins over top ten ranked fighters? Yeah I forgot "Randy Couture" is still a top HW. lol




rockybalboa25 said:


> After he beats Carwin, he will have three wins over top 10 fighters.


He ain't getting past Carwin. Shane is the biggest test for Brock. The real test. And Lesnar ain't gettin past him.




rockybalboa25 said:


> Even if you accept Sylvia, Arlovski, and Rogers as top 10 fighters, that means that Fedor and Brock have the same record of top 10 HWs in the last 5 years 3-1.


Yeah well as I said earlier there are a few HWs that I beleive could be ranked above Brock Lesnar who have twice the record that he does.

You seem to be arguing with me because you think I'm saying 

"Fedor is the best shove it"!! That is not what I am saying here. 

What I am saying is that "Brock has not proven for one second that he's the best HW MMA fighter in the world period"

MMA has a huge base of MMA fighters who for years have remained undefeated or picked up 1 loss along the way..... they have earned a spot over Brock Lesnar. They have twice as many fights.. twice as many finishes... better win/loss ratios and have endured the test of time.


----------



## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

Being the best is not a lifetime title, it must be earned repeatedly. 

With that in mind, the best in the world at this moment can only be considered purely through what they have done RECENTLY, as in, who has the best record against relevant, ranked opposition as of late?

Fedor - I am a huge fan, but it is wrong to say that he has fought anyone of relevance in a while (arguments can and will be made for AA, but it is a stretch). Werdum is probably the most relevant (arguable) and he lost. 

Brock - hasnt fought in a year for a start, but before that he beat Herring, Couture and Mir. Mir being the only relevant or ranked HW fighter of his victories, and most would place him around the 5,6,7 mark depending on who you ask. 

Carwin - Gonzaga, who is really nothing more than a gatekeeper; and Mir (see above)

Velasquez - Kongo and Rothwell are not relevant. You could argue Nog is, but at best he is at a lower level (just) than Mir. 

JDS - Werdum (who beat Fedor), Struve, CroCop, Yvel (none of which are relevant in any way) and Gonzaga (see above).


Honestly, none of the top HW's at the minute have done anything to really cement their place at the top of the pile. JDS probably has the deepest level of competition in the last couple of years, mostly against mid-tier guys. Roy Nelson would be a good addition, but again he is not a top 10 guy even. 

Until these guys start fighting each other it is impossible to say who is number 1 - as i have been saying for a while. If Brock beats Shane, that is a big indication of where the number 1 spot should be - but there would still be uncertainty. 

As soon as the top 4 UFC HW's start fighting each other, Fedor should absolutely not be included in these discussions as a potential top HW in the world. 

My personal belief is that Brock is the best in the world, but that is based on opinion and is not backed up by fact. In fact, very little of the HW rankings can be backed up by fact. It is ALL opinion in reference to the top 5.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Velasquez*

Well he is next in line for the title shot!


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Dream-On-101 said:


> Being the best is not a lifetime title, it must be earned repeatedly.
> 
> With that in mind, the best in the world at this moment can only be considered purely through what they have done RECENTLY, as in, who has the best record against relevant, ranked opposition as of late?
> 
> ...


Funny thing is Dana White won't have JDS fight Cain. And that fight makes the most sense right now. For the number 1 contender spot.

Guess he doesn't want one of them to drop in rankings.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> I don't seem to realize? You're funny rocky.


Thank you



_RIVAL_ said:


> Here's one to boot. Brock Lesnar hasn't fought in a year. And only has 5 professional MMA fights. He's not that good. He's that hyped.


Again Lesnar only has one less win over a ranked HW than Fedor in the last three years, and can rectify that Saturday. 






_RIVAL_ said:


> That's the funny thing. These "experts" have a guy with 4-1 record who hasn't fought in a year ranked as a #1 HW in the world. Its' a complete disrespect to guys like JDS, and other top HWs. Who have twice the record of Brock.


You keep triumphing JDS who has by my account beaten 1 ranked HW. Maybe there's a reason the "experts" get paid for their opinions and you don't.




_RIVAL_ said:


> No I don't. I completley disagree with the #1 ranking. I don't think he's earned that #1 ranking for a second. I have a love for the sport of MMA and I watch all these HWs in the mix and I beleive that some of them have earned a spot above Lesnar on that list.


Yeah you do hate Lesnar. If he beats Carwin, Cain, and JDS you'll find a another reason why he's not #1.




_RIVAL_ said:


> You think I'm Fedor zombie? Nah dude, I have always said that Anderson Silva is the best p4p fighter in the world in my opinion.
> 
> I'm a more of a Jake Shields zombie. Fedor is in my top 10. But I will say even though he lost I think that he should lose his #1 ranking I won't argue that. Brock at #1 is what I am debating here.







_RIVAL_ said:


> Two wins over top ten ranked fighters? Yeah I forgot "Randy Couture" is still a top HW. lol


If were going by who is on top now, then Fedor has 0 quality wins since PRIDE. Just like Fedor gets credit for AA, Sylvia, and Brett "how was I ever ranked" Rogers. Brock gets credit for Couture who was ranked when Brock beat him.





_RIVAL_ said:


> He ain't getting past Carwin. Shane is the biggest test for Brock. The real test. And Lesnar ain't gettin past him.


Yes he will. Brock is a better wrestler, he's faster, and he's more agile. Carwin is very stiff in his movements and not that fast. Also people are saying that Carwin has a lot more experience than Lesanr. While he has 7 more fights. He has only fought 3 more rounds than Lesnar.





_RIVAL_ said:


> Yeah well as I said earlier there are a few HWs that I beleive could be ranked above Brock Lesnar who have twice the record that he does.
> 
> You seem to be arguing with me because you think I'm saying
> 
> ...


So lets look at meaningful wins, not just I beat some guy with a terrible record.

Let's look at the last 3 years:

Brock 2-1 against ranked opponents
JDS 1-0 against ranked opponents with a loss to a nobody
Shane Carwin 1-0 against ranked opponents
Fedor 3-1 against ranked opponents. 
Velasquez 1-0 against ranked opponents.
Werdum 3-2/2-2 Bigfoot was ranked by some but not all at the time.
Overeem 0-0 against ranked opponents. 

Looks to me, especially if Brock wins against carwin (improving to 3-1) that he stacks up just fine. Do some of these guys have more wins? Yes, but do the first 4 wins of JDS's career against guys of a combined record of 20-27 really catapult him to the front?


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Randy wasn't ranked because he hadn't faught in a year, very few people ranked him. Mir wasn't ranked when they faught. Heath hasn't been top 10 since pride. He is 1-0 against ranked opponents in the last 3 years. 

JDS beat Werdum who was ranked, and lost to a nobody. However, since we are only going by ranks, he is 1-0 against ranked opponents.

Cain faught Kongo who was ranked by some, at least as many as Couture was anyways. Nog was ranked. He is 1-0 against undeniably ranked competition.

Carwin beat Mir, and is 1-0 against ranked competition. 

Werdum lost to an unranked JDS, but beat Fedor, Gonzaga when he was ranked, and some people ranked Silva. He lost to Arlovski. He is 2-1 against undeniable top 10's. 

Fedor is 3-1 against ranked competition at the time. 

Some people ranked Rogers, some didn't. So Alistair is 0-0 against top comp. 

Of course, this is your criteria. Going by that logic, Werdum is #1 because he hasn't lost in a while. Can't be Fedor since he just lost. It is either that, or every other HW on the list is #1. 

If you facor in top 15's and solid wins it looks as such and all loses
Lesnar is 3-1
JDS is 3-1 (Gonzaga, Cro Cop and Werdum)
Cain is 3-0 (Nog, Rothwell, Kongo)
Carwin is 2-0
Fedor is 3-1
Overeem is 1-0
Werdum is 4-2 (Vera was considered a good win at the time)

So, Cain is the best fighter in the world I guess if you go soley off the last 3 years.

In my opinion, Cain or JDS should be ranked #1 based off wins. I don't think Lesnar should be ranked #1 unless he beats Carwin. In which case, he should be #1. This doesn't mean Lesnar can't beat any of the aforementioned, but in terms of ranking putting him #1 doesn't make sense.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

GKY said:


> Randy wasn't ranked because he hadn't faught in a year, very few people ranked him. Mir wasn't ranked when they faught. Heath hasn't been top 10 since pride. He is 1-0 against ranked opponents in the last 3 years.
> 
> JDS beat Werdum who was ranked, and lost to a nobody. However, since we are only going by ranks, he is 1-0 against ranked opponents.
> 
> ...


http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/sherdog-rankings-history-2001-present-1214246/

First off Randy was ranked 4th when they fought so there's you first mistake. So since Mir wasn't ranked the first time Lesnar fought, Lesnar is 2-0 against top 10 ranked. I didn't expand it to 15, because that would be speculation since no one ranks that far. Neither Gonzaga or Cro Cop were ranked when JDS fought them, so that's out the window too. Neither Rothwell or Kongo were ranked when they lost to Velasquez. Vera wasn't ranked when he lost to Werdum.

So the facts remain
against top 10 competition in the last 3 years.
Lesnar 2-0 with a loss to an unranked fighter
Velasquez 1-0
JDS 1-0 with a loss to an unranked.
Overeem 0-0
Fedor 3-1
Werdum 2-1 with a loss to an unranked fighter.
Carwin 1-0


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/sherdog-rankings-history-2001-present-1214246/
> 
> First off Randy was ranked 4th when they fought so there's you first mistake. So since Mir wasn't ranked the first time Lesnar fought, Lesnar is 2-0 against top 10 ranked. I didn't expand it to 15, because that would be speculation since no one ranks that far. Neither Gonzaga or Cro Cop were ranked when JDS fought them, so that's out the window too. Neither Rothwell or Kongo were ranked when they lost to Velasquez. Vera wasn't ranked when he lost to Werdum.
> 
> ...


Kongo was ranked in March, they updated in June after he lost to Cain. Makes him 2-0 with no random loses. He also has more wins than Lesnar and even if you don't rank top 15, you know who is and isn't a good fighter. 

And clearly I was mistaken about Couture being ranked, my bad. 

Once again, Cain is #1 by your standards.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

GKY said:


> Kongo was ranked in March, they updated in June after he lost to Cain. Makes him 2-0 with no random loses. He also has more wins than Lesnar and even if you don't rank top 15, you know who is and isn't a good fighter.
> 
> And clearly I was mistaken about Couture being ranked, my bad.
> 
> Once again, Cain is #1 by your standards.


Trying reading

velasquez fought Kongo 6/13/09

March 2009
Heavyweight
1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Andrei Arlovski
3. Josh Barnett
4. Frank Mir
5. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
6. Brock Lesnar
7. Randy Couture
8. Tim Sylvia
9. Ben Rothwell
10. Alistair Overeem

June 2009
Heavyweights
1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Josh Barnett
3. Frank Mir
4. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
5. Brock Lesnar
6. Randy Couture
7. Brett Rogers
8. Andrei Arlovski
9. Shane Carwin
10. Alistair Overeem

Where's Kongo? Not there. Guess Cain is still just 1-0 against ranked competition. Nice try though.


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Trying reading
> 
> velasquez fought Kongo 6/13/09
> 
> ...


My apologiez again, it appears that I have misread the thread, Kongo was top 10 in January but not March. 

Also, by your criteria, I'm sure you would agree a loss to an unranked opponent is worse than a loss to a ranked opponent. So taking that into account, Brock loses some serious points (say a wins worth). So I would put him at 1-0 in my mind anyways.

Bringing it back to, Cain has more wins, never lost, and faced solid opponents. 

Fedor by your logic is 3-1, which subtracting the loss to a ranked opponent (about half a win), he is 2.5-0. I still wouldn't say he is #1, but if you go by strictly number basis, which you are doing, he is number 1. 

And I also don't understand your obsession about top 10. A good win is a good win. I would call Heath a good win, as I would call Rothwell a good win. And don't forget, Rothwell and Cain were both in the top 10 in 2009, not too long before they got squashed by Cain. 

So yes, Cain has better wins


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

GKY said:


> My apologiez again, it appears that I have misread the thread, Kongo was top 10 in January but not March.
> 
> Also, by your criteria, I'm sure you would agree a loss to an unranked opponent is worse than a loss to a ranked opponent. So taking that into account, Brock loses some serious points (say a wins worth). So I would put him at 1-0 in my mind anyways.
> 
> ...


Now you're just making crap up. I'll subtract a win for this half a win to that. Their record against ranked opponents is their record against ranked opponents. 
My "obsession" with top 10 opponents is that it guarantees a quality win. You don't have to argue whether a fighter is good or not. Rothwell in my mind is not very good. He doesn't have any real quality wins in his career. Roy Nelson is his biggest win. By your standards Herring is a quality opponent because he beat Kongo. 

Also how did Cain squash Cain?


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Now you're just making crap up. I'll subtract a win for this half a win to that. Their record against ranked opponents is their record against ranked opponents.
> My "obsession" with top 10 opponents is that it guarantees a quality win. You don't have to argue whether a fighter is good or not. Rothwell in my mind is not very good. He doesn't have any real quality wins in his career. Roy Nelson is his biggest win. By your standards Herring is a quality opponent because he beat Kongo.
> 
> Also how did Cain squash Cain?


I meant he squashed Kongo

And ofcourse you can subtract a win. An unraked opponent by your standards is someone not noteworthy. Therefore, a loss to someone who "sucks" should be frowned upon harder than a loss to a ranked opponent. So yeah, if a loss to a ranked opponent is a deductable of about 0.5 wins, surely an unranked opponent is worth 1. 

Once again, you are going from a strictly number basis, so I should be allowed to subtract and add to give them a net value. Cain would equal Brock, but have more wins and therefore should be number 1.

And yes, Heath is a good win, as I said earlier. However, not as good as Kongo and Rothwell combined.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Kongo and Rothwell*

Yeah I know they aren't that skilled combined!


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

_RIVAL_ said:


> He ain't getting past Carwin. Shane is the biggest test for Brock. The real test. And Lesnar ain't gettin past him.
> .


would you like some water to wash down that crow.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Funny thing is Dana White won't have JDS fight Cain. And that fight makes the most sense right now. For the number 1 contender spot.
> 
> Guess he doesn't want one of them to drop in rankings.



Yes this is probably the more frustrating thing to have happened with the HW division for some time. In my opinion, Cain v JDS for the number one contender spot should have been a no-brainer. I understand it from a financial/ business point of view, but then it comes down to what is the UFC primarily - a sport or a business? 

Cain v JDS winner being the number one contender. 
Looser fights the looser of Brock and Shane (Shane).

By the time that had happened it would have given others (Mir) a chance to throw a couple of wins together and be back in the picture. 

The only way we can find out who is the best of the best is when the best actually fight each other. 

As of right now, Brock is the best HW in the world.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

*Best HW in the world*

Yeah that's pretty unanimous!


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