# Dana White's bizarre pound 4 pound list



## fullcontact (Sep 16, 2006)

1. Anderson
2. GSP
3. BJ Penn
4. Edgar
5. Aldo

Seriously Edgar? 
And Anderson still tops the list despite Dana White's criticism after Abu Dhabi?

"How can a guy, who hasn't fought ANYBODY since the late
90's fall in the pound for pound category?".

Very impressive considering the fact that Fyodor had his MMA debut in 2000...

Yes, I would love for him to fight Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin. But it may never happen as long as the UFC won't allow co-promoting.

Why is Dana always surrounded by a bunch of yes-men, where is the critical journalism towards his manipulative form of arguing?


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## xbrokenshieldx (Mar 5, 2007)

I kept reading Fedor instead of Edgar. And I couldn't figure out what was odd with the list. 

Yea, Edgar doesn't belong on the p4p list. At this point I would put several fighters ahead of him.


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## hommage1985 (Apr 22, 2007)

Dana White won't put anybody outside of the UFC on a p4p list so his opinion means nothing because he is just shamelessly promoting his company.


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## streetpunk08 (Jul 15, 2006)

I actually agree with it, Edgar just beat BJ Penn and has won 4 straight including a win over Sherk with having only 1 loss on his record. Edgar's win over BJ is much much better than any win Fedor has had in the last 6 years. Everybody judges p4p differently but I don't consider it a career achievement award but more of a who is dominating the sport the most the last year or two and Fedor just straight up hasn't fought world class competition fight in and fight out since PRIDE collapsed and he only fights like once a year. At first I was thinking I would put Aldo above Edgar but Edgar just beat BJ and the 145 lb weight class isn't very deep and a win over BJ blows away a win over Mike Brown or Faber imo. So yeah i know everyone loves Fedor but imo his inactivity and list of opponents since 05-06 just doesn't cut it in the p4p disucssion. Anderson is unquestionably the top spot, if Shogun wins his next fight he will jump into the top 5.


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## fullcontact (Sep 16, 2006)

He crushed everyone in Pride and has maintained his undefeated reign.
Andre Arlovski, Brett Rogers, Tim Sylvia (and now Fabricio Werdum) are all in the top 15 of heavyweights.

Dont be fooled by their performances AFTER their fight with Fyodor.


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## streetpunk08 (Jul 15, 2006)

fullcontact said:


> He crushed everyone in Pride and has maintained his undefeated reign.
> Andre Arlovski, Brett Rogers, Tim Sylvia (and now Fabricio Werdum) are all in the top 15 of heavyweights.
> 
> Dont be fooled by their performances AFTER their fight with Fyodor.


AA is losing to everyone these days, Tim Sylvia got KTFO by a 50 year old boxer in 10 seconds, and Brett Rogers is a nobody in this sport, his only non can victory is over AA who is really tanking these days. Like I said imo victories over BJ Penn and Sherk blow Fedor's outta the water, if it was 2006 a win over AA and Sylvia would be amazing but he didn't fight them in 2006. I dont consider p4p a career award if it was Fedor would be 1, he isnt dominating the sport or his division like the other guys on that list are and hasnt since PRIDE collapsed 4 years ago. Like I said p4p is not a career award if it was Roy Jones would be atop the boxing p4p list but he isnt, p4p is a who's dominating the sport RIGHT NOW, not who dominated the sport 5 years ago. Look at everyone on that list inlcuding Edgar, all of them have defeated the best of their division (even Edgar) and have wins over the majority of the top 10, does Fedor? No, he hasn't fought JDS, Cain, Carwin, Mir, Brock who all of which imo are top 8 HW's. I like Fedor and his record speaks for itself but p4p isnt something he qualifies for right now.


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

If you take out Edgar and put in Fedor it's not that bad of a list. Personally my list would look like this:

1. Anderson Silva - Hes so good he holds the Ufc record for most consecutive wins, and it's still going. He toys with his opponents in the ring or just destroys them quickly, and nobody else in his weight class even stand a chance against him.

2. Georges St.Pierre - Ever since his fluke loss to Matt Serra years ago GSP has been on an underrated tear in which he has completely dominated all of his opponents. He has shown possibly the best wrestling in MMA, very good striking, and even good BJJ skills against Dan Hardy.

3. Fedor Emelianenko - While his amazing 31 fight undefeated record proves his legend, you have to admit that Fedor hasn't fought the best competition his weight class has to offer and struggled against mid-level guys like Brett Rogers and Andrei Arlovski before knocking them out.

4. Jose Aldo - This young fighter is one of the fastest growing and most hyped young stars in the sport. He's dominated his weight and shown very excellent all-around skills. Almost like a lighter poor mans Anderson Silva.

5. Shogun Rua - Hes back in his old prime form now and crushed previously undefeated champ Machida. This new Shogun looks like he could beat anybody in the world at his weight.


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## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

Wait so Dana White, UFC promoter, is saying only UFC fighters are at the top of his list!!?!?!?!?!

*SHOCKING!!!!*









Nothing new here, he is just doing his job. 

Too bad most MMA journalist are too afraid to call him out on his bullshit. He'd probably have their UFC credentials pulled if they did. So they wont.........


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## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

fullcontact said:


> He crushed everyone in Pride and has maintained his undefeated reign.
> Andre Arlovski, Brett Rogers, Tim Sylvia (and now Fabricio Werdum) are all in the top 15 of heavyweights.
> 
> Dont be fooled by their performances AFTER their fight with Fyodor.


The only reason they would be ranked top 15 is because of the very very thin talent pool at HW. Shit, Arlovski was ranked #2 in the world at one point in time and he never beat anybody good!!!

Dont believe the lies, rankings in MMA mean nothing. It's an unpopular opinion but it's true.


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## thrshr01 (Dec 30, 2007)

streetpunk08 said:


> AA is losing to everyone these days, Tim Sylvia got KTFO by a 50 year old boxer in 10 seconds, and Brett Rgoers is a nobody in this sport, his only non can victory is over AA who is really tanking these days. Like I said imo victories over BJ Penn and Sherk blow Fedor's outta the water, if it was 2006 a win over AA and Sylvia would be amazing but he didn't fight them in 2006. I dont consider p4p a career award if it was Fedor would be 1, he isnt dominating the sport or his division like the other guys on that list are and hasnt since PRIDE collapsed 4 years ago. *Like I said p4p is not a career award if it was Roy Jones would be atop the boxing p4p list but he isnt, p4p is a who's dominating the sport RIGHT NOW*, not who dominated the sport 5 years ago. Look at everyone on that list inlcuding Edgar, all of them have defeated the best of their division (even Edgar) and have wins over the majority of the top 10, does Fedor? No, he hasn't fought JDS, Cain, Carwin, Mir, Brock who all of which imo are top 8 HW's. I like Fedor and his record speaks for itself but p4p isnt something he qualifies for right now.


This!

Dana's P4P list isn't P4P of all time, it's P4P currently. Not to take anything away from Fedor, but the people he has competed against recently isn't exactly "world class" fighters anymore but ones that are on the downhill of their careers.


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## loci (Jun 2, 2007)

When asked that question, the best pound for pound fighter is the one who's fight happens to be being promoted at the time.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

Silva is the p4p king, taking into consideration the level of his opponents and the dominating way in which he wins.

GSP comes next. After that it gets cloudy.


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## Can.Opener (Apr 8, 2009)

I am truly shocked Dana white would put fighters under his corporate umbrella in the p4p list and not include rival organizations fighters.

*shakes fist*


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## No_Mercy (Oct 17, 2006)

Dtwizzy2k5 said:


> If you take out Edgar and put in Fedor it's not that bad of a list. Personally my list would look like this:
> 
> 1. Anderson Silva - Hes so good he holds the Ufc record for most consecutive wins, and it's still going. He toys with his opponents in the ring or just destroys them quickly, and nobody else in his weight class even stand a chance against him.
> 
> ...


Yes...havn't seen too many fights of Aldo so I'd put Penn in that spot instead.


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

No_Mercy said:


> Yes...havn't seen too many fights of Aldo so I'd put Penn in that spot instead.


You should really check out Aldo's fights, he really is an incredible fighter and a certain superstar for years to come. I left BJ Penn off the list for several reasons. First of all, his MMA record of 15-6 isnt very impressive. Granted, records dont mean everything and many of his losses came against very good fighters but a top 5 p4p is supposed to be able to beat very good fighters. Second, he's not even the champion in his own division and lost his last fight. Sure, you could make excuses about his sinus infection which may be valid but until/unless he redeems himself in the rematch this summer you really cant put him in the top 5 over any of the guys i listed.
BJ Penn is a great fighter and definite top 10 p4p who has been dominant against top contenders, but in the end he doesnt deserve p4p instead of Aldo. In fact, many people including myself believe that Aldo could very well defeat Penn if he were to move up to the UFC's lightweight division.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

I'm not going to make a P4P list, but I am assuming Penn takes the belt back from Edgar in definitive fashion.

the megafights coming or should happen will tell the story:

Carwin VS Brock
Anderson VS GSP
Anderson VS LHW champ
GSP VS Shields
GSP VS Kos II
Fedor VS a legit top 5 HW (even Mir).
HW Champ VS Cain
Penn VS Aldo

The only one on tap is Brock V Carwin. The Carwin VS Brock hopefully will last more than one round, we see if Carwin and Brock have chins, gas when the monsters collide and well-rounded games.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

streetpunk08 said:


> AA is losing to everyone these days, Tim Sylvia got KTFO by a 50 year old boxer in 10 seconds, and Brett Rogers is a nobody in this sport, his only non can victory is over AA who is really tanking these days. Like I said imo victories over BJ Penn and Sherk blow Fedor's outta the water, if it was 2006 a win over AA and Sylvia would be amazing but he didn't fight them in 2006. I dont consider p4p a career award if it was Fedor would be 1, he isnt dominating the sport or his division like the other guys on that list are and hasnt since PRIDE collapsed 4 years ago. Like I said p4p is not a career award if it was Roy Jones would be atop the boxing p4p list but he isnt, p4p is a who's dominating the sport RIGHT NOW, not who dominated the sport 5 years ago. Look at everyone on that list inlcuding Edgar, all of them have defeated the best of their division (even Edgar) and have wins over the majority of the top 10, does Fedor? No, he hasn't fought JDS, Cain, Carwin, Mir, Brock who all of which imo are top 8 HW's. I like Fedor and his record speaks for itself but p4p isnt something he qualifies for right now.


This and even though I do it myself it is retarded to put a HW on a p4p list.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

edgar did beat a supposedly motivated bj penn.... and a bj penn who hasn't lost at LW in a LONG time.

its what have you done for me lately, i guess....


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Lets be real here. He has Edgar fighting BJ in a rematch... this p4p list makes Edgar a legit competitor whether he wins or loses. If he wasnt on there and Edgar beats BJ then what does that say about their LW champ?

Dana is playing it safe.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Edgar being on that list is an absolute joke, he hasn't even defended his title.


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## BrianRClover (Jan 4, 2008)

I think as far as top 5 at the moment list goes, this is pretty accurate and anything but bizarre.

But pound for pound is so subjective it will forever be debated no matter who's list it is, or who is on it. 

In my personal opinion, the pound for pound list off all time would look very different. You have to rank people by what was going on during their time, and in their generation, and I think it would be impossible to leave guys out like Liddell, Gracie, and Fedor.

At this point the only guys on Dana's list that deserve the "all time" ranking would be, Silva, Penn, and GSP.


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## morninglightmt (Sep 7, 2008)

P4P is a subjective list. What's so "bizarre" about this one? Give me your objective metrics that PROVE your p4p.... :confused02:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

hommage1985 said:


> Dana White won't put anybody outside of the UFC on a p4p list so his opinion means nothing because he is just shamelessly promoting his company.


 
I actually thought he his spelling was off and Edgar was supposed to mean Fedor.....I agree with your sentiment though...:thumbsup:


EDIT: @ Morning......who is on your list and how would you leave Fedor off??? Also to put Frankie Edgar on?? Just curious like yourself??


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## morninglightmt (Sep 7, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> I actually thought he his spelling was off and Edgar was supposed to mean Fedor.....I agree with your sentiment though...:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> EDIT: @ Morning......who is on your list and how would you leave Fedor off??? Also to put Frankie Edgar on?? Just curious like yourself??


You can see my list in the premium members section thread for it. Fedor is right there. But what's so "bizarre" about Danas list and why does it need a thread where everyone gets their panties in a bind? Edgar just beat a guy who everyone thought was the possibly the P4P best. Why should he not be up there? Where is the controversy?


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

morninglightmt said:


> You can see my list in the premium members section thread for it. Fedor is right there. But what's so "bizarre" about Danas list and why does it need a thread where everyone gets their panties in a bind? Edgar just beat a guy who everyone thought was the possibly the P4P best. Why should he not be up there? Where is the controversy?


It's kind of been mentioned already but okay, his list is so bizzzare because 

*A.* there is no Fedor on it....

*B.* Frankie Edgar is on it, and sure he beat BJ but that doesnt mean he has beaten all the top fighters BJ has....

*C.* All the fighters Dana mentions are UFC fighters when there clearly is one he is leaving out.....only the best regarded HW in MMA history to date, regardless of the UFC hype machine...


My P4P list s in the premium section as well but if you question other's who are posting on this thread perhaps you should post your list so people are able to compare your opinions...:thumbsup: FTR...I dont have Frankie on mine...Also remember this is peoples opinions...


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

My p4p list looks more like
1)Anderson Silva
2)Georges St-Pierre
3)Fedor Emelianenko
But I don't really care about p4p list, there is a better title a fighter can earn - it is called "the best fighter in MMA" (the best of the best on any p4p list) and this is Fedor Emelianenko right now, because he would smash everyone on Dana White's TOP 5 p4p list.
P4P doesn't estimate fighter's natural weight/heigth/reach, but it plays a huge factor. I don't think anyone here thinks that GSP can destroy Fedor relying solely on his skills. Under PRIDE system, those things were constantly tested in open-weight tournaments, and even the best LHW of that era, Wanderlei Silva, couldn't beat heavyweights like Cro Cop and Mark Hunt.
p4p ranking is just the best way for Dana and UFC to promote his fighters while Fedor is still walking around and it means nothing. But don't get me wrong, I respect all UFC fighters especially GSP and Silva.


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## fullcontact (Sep 16, 2006)

Yes, a Pound for pound list is a subjective matter.

But does that mean that I can just put David Loiseau in it,just because I like his spinning back kick? Of course not! 

Such a list requires reasonable argumentation and an effort to avoid being blinded by your own bias. If this is not made, then it's not a _pound for pound list_, it is just _a list_.

If the list is a mix of *past accomplishments and current shape or latest six fights,* then:
Fydor has to be in it and Edgar def can't be in it.
Edgar has won some pretty good fights, but he mostly wins close decisions. 

If you perceive pound for pound as a *more current evaluation*, then Aldo should be higher than both Edgar and BJ. 

And I can't tell you how tired I am of watching Dana White appearing in interviews with a very low standard of critical journalism. He just gets to say whatever he wants, and no one is countering his absurd mainpulative comments. 

I remember one of few times I saw him particapate in a pound for pound "debate" with Helwani, it was just Dana shouting à la Bill O'Reilly on a bad day.

I love the UFC, but I don't love the way the president handles himself publicly.


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## morninglightmt (Sep 7, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> It's kind of been mentioned already but okay, his list is so bizzzare because
> 
> *A.* there is no Fedor on it....
> 
> ...


A. He only gave the top 5, maybe he didn't think Fedor made the cusp. So what?

B. Frankie just beat BJ. And it's not his only LW win. His list of wins is BJ Penn, Sean Sherk, Tyson Griffen, Jim Miller, Hermes Franca, Spencer Fischer, Mark Bocek and Matt Veach. _Nobody _has fought a tougher list of opponents than him at LW. He's 8-1 in the UFC and beat BJ to become the current LW champ.

C. I don't see your list in the P4P thread M_D created for it so I don't know what your ratings are....

Here's what I posted a few weeks ago in that thread as my top 10 I wont bother with the top 25.

1. Anderson Silva
2. Georges St-Pierre
3. Frankie Edgar
4. Jose Aldo
5. B.J. Penn
6. Fedor Emelianenko
7. Jake Shields
8. Mauricio Rua
9. Lyoto Machida
10. Jon Fitch

I'm not questioning their opinions at all. Everyone can post their P4P to their hearts content. I'm questioning the relevance of this thread in general. You just basically agreed with me that P4P is a subjective metric and Dana's list is only one person giving his subjective opinion. Where's the controversy in it? So I rate one guy two ratings higher than you and you rate some other guy one below me? Big effing whoop! Are we really going to sit here and bitch and moan about it ad nauseum? Apparently so! :thumb02:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

I stated in the premium thread IMO there should or only can be one for each weight class, possible one that qualifies for 2 weight classes......so I wanted to put in a list of like 5-6 total but.....it wasnt my thread...

@ Morning Im not arguing with anyone dude. Fedor is prob #1 on the list, it seems were focusing soley on UFC fighters, when you mention Frankie and rattle off his opponents, stating no onein the UFC has done that(kinda makes my point) I'm looking past the UFC and I am also taking into account all the fights that BJ has had, to suggest there is no one has fought tougher fighters than Frankie is nuts, just look at BJ's fight rec...

There is no controversy, people just dont agree with Dana's list, much like Im sure many people that posted in M_D's thread probably wondered HMMM??? 

Hopefully that answers you question and as far my P4P list he PM'd me like 5 times to submit it soI dunno what happened, but I havent looked in there since I put my list in...apparantly it was super important to get as many people's lists as possible...





EDIT: @ Morning....i believe he removed my list check the thread again, I def posted it but M_D and I had an issue I certainly hope that would not constitute the removal of my list.....if it did, WoW what is this place coming to??? Sorry morning i didnt even save my list dude but i guess it would be:

1. Aldo
2. Penn
3. GSP
4. Silva
5. Fedor


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

lol Aldo #1, and you are complaining about Fedor not being on Dana's list? You could make just as many arguments about Aldo's competition not being up to par as you could with Fedor.


those are not my opinions, I'm just trying to be objective about this. The only argument I would make for Fedor NOT being in the top 5, is that Fedor isn't fighting the more dangerous, more talented HW's at the moment, he just ISN'T. This has nothing to do with Fedor as a person and whether or not he is avoiding certain match-ups, and it isn't his fault that all of his opponents lose after fighting him, this has to do with the current situation of MMA as a whole.

I just feel like there are so many people jumping on Dana for no reason here.
Maybe just take a breath be happy for Frankie Edgar? If he really is a natural 145 lber, and he beat BJ (easily a top 5 p4p), then why shouldn't he deserve a spot at this point in time? If BJ comes back and takes Edgar down, subs him in the first, then, boom, you were right, but you should go with the evidence. 

How you could have Aldo above Silva, is unknown to me, but I understand p4p lists are just an opinion. Personally, I think a true p4p best list would be filled with nothing but 135-155lbers with maybe 5 heavier fighters in the top 25, but that is just MY opinion.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

I would put Jake Shields before Jose Aldo and Frankie Edgar.

Fedor not being on that list is a crime as well.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

streetpunk08 said:


> AA is losing to everyone these days, Tim Sylvia got KTFO by a 50 year old boxer in 10 seconds, and Brett Rogers is a nobody in this sport, his only non can victory is over AA who is really tanking these days. Like I said imo victories over BJ Penn and Sherk blow Fedor's outta the water, if it was 2006 a win over AA and Sylvia would be amazing but he didn't fight them in 2006. I dont consider p4p a career award if it was Fedor would be 1, he isnt dominating the sport or his division like the other guys on that list are and hasnt since PRIDE collapsed 4 years ago. *Like I said p4p is not a career award if it was Roy Jones would be atop the boxing p4p list but he isnt, p4p is a who's dominating the sport RIGHT NOW, not who dominated the sport 5 years ago.* Look at everyone on that list inlcuding Edgar, all of them have defeated the best of their division (even Edgar) and have wins over the majority of the top 10, does Fedor? No, he hasn't fought JDS, Cain, Carwin, Mir, Brock who all of which imo are top 8 HW's. I like Fedor and his record speaks for itself but p4p isnt something he qualifies for right now.


Good of you to point that out :thumbsup:. Most people get Greatest of All Time mixed up with Pound for Pound. 

A GOAT list would look different then a P4P, without a doubt, Fedor makes the GOAT list, but P4P, considering his current and most recent competition, not so much.


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Pound for Pound mean that, regardless of weight, that particular fighter has the most rounded skills and abilities and has proven it in top contest. Frankie Edgar, although a good fighter, is not one of these people. At least not yet.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

morninglightmt said:


> 1. Anderson Silva
> 2. Georges St-Pierre
> 3. Frankie Edgar
> 4. Jose Aldo
> ...



I really find it interesting that you'd put Aldo and Edgar before Jake Shields....

Given the fact that Jake has been cleaning house in two seperate divisions puts him past Aldo IMO....

Given the fact that Jake hasn't lost a fight in almost six years and shown a better ability to finsih his opponents puts him past Frankie.... 

Not to mention the fact that Jake has as many fights as Jose Aldo and Frankie Edgar combined... 

And he holds more victories than Aldo Or Edgar even have professional fights....


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> I would put Jake Shields before Jose Aldo and Frankie Edgar.
> 
> Fedor not being on that list is a crime as well.


I thought the use of PFP was a tool to compare the lighter weight classes with the heavies. Like saying if BJ was a HW he would beat Fedor kind of thing. Just wondering?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

dave-stjohn said:


> I thought the use of PFP was a tool to compare the lighter weight classes with the heavies. Like saying if BJ was a HW he would beat Fedor kind of thing. Just wondering?


Well it is... which is why I put Jake higher in those ranks because he's proven that he can move up in weight and destroy top ten fighters....

Aldo and Edgar have not.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

streetpunk08 said:


> I actually agree with it, Edgar just beat BJ Penn and has won 4 straight including a win over Sherk with having only 1 loss on his record. Edgar's win over BJ is much much better than any win Fedor has had in the last 6 years. Everybody judges p4p differently but I don't consider it a career achievement award but more of a who is dominating the sport the most the last year or two and Fedor just straight up hasn't fought world class competition fight in and fight out since PRIDE collapsed and he only fights like once a year. At first I was thinking I would put Aldo above Edgar but Edgar just beat BJ and the 145 lb weight class isn't very deep and a win over BJ blows away a win over Mike Brown or Faber imo. So yeah i know everyone loves Fedor but imo his inactivity and list of opponents since 05-06 just doesn't cut it in the p4p disucssion. Anderson is unquestionably the top spot, if Shogun wins his next fight he will jump into the top 5.


And Rogers who A) He struggled with for a while before KOing him in one punch, he did not look good at ALL in that fight and B) Rogers just got made looks like a god damn child with no skills by Overeem. If Overeem can thrash him that badly and Fedor can't that means either Overeem has gotten better than Fedor or Fedor is slipping, I'm inclined to think the ladder judging by recent performances.


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## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

No love for the _ relevant _ big men? Brock may not deserve to be up there, Shane may not deserve to be up there, but they deserve to be up there in consideration at least.
Brock is the best wrestler in the world (sorry GLP), Shane is the hardest hitting and also a damn qualified wrestler, and its all "BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW NO NON-ZUFFAS!" when its Heavyweight-less, that includes the light heavyweights.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

SJ said:


> lol Aldo #1, and you are complaining about Fedor not being on Dana's list? You could make just as many arguments about Aldo's competition not being up to par as you could with Fedor.
> 
> 
> those are not my opinions, I'm just trying to be objective about this. The only argument I would make for Fedor NOT being in the top 5, is that Fedor isn't fighting the more dangerous, more talented HW's at the moment, he just ISN'T. This has nothing to do with Fedor as a person and whether or not he is avoiding certain match-ups, and it isn't his fault that all of his opponents lose after fighting him, this has to do with the current situation of MMA as a whole.
> ...


Whoa, Whoa......It was by weight classs I did it dude, notice Aldo is the lightest, and Fedor is the heaviest....it doesnt mean Aldo is better than anyone else on the list, or 1st IMO, I just posted by weight.....thats what I suggested on the original thread so for Morning I posted that way...:thumb02: I didnt take the time to point that out when posting because on my previous post i had mentioned I thought it should be one for each weight class.....those would be mine.



_RIVAL_ said:


> I would put Jake Shields before Jose Aldo and Frankie Edgar.
> 
> Fedor not being on that list is a crime as well.


Jake belongs on the list somewhere i agree I have become very impressed by going back(on someone's advice):thumbsup: and watching many of his fights, my list is back in the Premium thread so Morning if you wanna see it you can now....:thumbsup:


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Well it is... which is why I put Jake higher in those ranks because he's proven that he can move up in weight and destroy top ten fighters....
> 
> Aldo and Edgar have not.


I was making a point in reference to your post about Fedor not being on the list being a crime. Him being the HW is what the lower weights are being compared to, so he or any other HW shouldn't be included on any PFP list as this is a tool to compare the lighter fighters to the big boys. That's how I understand is the way PFP is used for.


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## gabrielC90 (Mar 1, 2010)

Arguing online is like the Special Olympics. No matter who wins, you're still retarded.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

gabrielC90 said:


> Arguing online is like the Special Olympics. No matter who wins, you're still retarded.


Dude..... that's deep..


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Syxx Paq said:


> No love for the _ relevant _ big men? Brock may not deserve to be up there, Shane may not deserve to be up there, but they deserve to be up there in consideration at least.
> Brock is the best wrestler in the world (sorry GLP), Shane is the hardest hitting and also a damn qualified wrestler, and its all "BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW NO NON-ZUFFAS!" when its Heavyweight-less, that includes the light heavyweights.


HW's should not be on a p4p list! And by no means in the top 5. But Fedor is and always was a very small HW and fought many bigger guys. So for him you can make an exception! But Brock and Shane should be far away from a top 10 list.



dave-stjohn said:


> I was making a point in reference to your post about Fedor not being on the list being a crime. Him being the HW is what the lower weights are being compared to, so he or any other HW shouldn't be included on any PFP list as this is a tool to compare the lighter fighters to the big boys. That's how I understand is the way PFP is used for.


Exactly dave thats how it should be! :thumbsup:


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

dave-stjohn said:


> I was making a point in reference to your post about Fedor not being on the list being a crime. Him being the HW is what the lower weights are being compared to, so he or any other HW shouldn't be included on any PFP list as this is a tool to compare the lighter fighters to the big boys. That's how I understand is the way PFP is used for.


It works in reverse as well.... how would Fedors tools work at LW...if he was a 155er...


----------



## morninglightmt (Sep 7, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> HW's should not be on a p4p list! And by no means in the top 5. But Fedor is and always was a very small HW and fought many bigger guys. So for him you can make an exception! But Brock and Shane should be far away from a top 10 list.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly dave thats how it should be! :thumbsup:


I don't believe that's how P4P works. You can also say how would Lesner stack up against GSP if they both fought at 170 etc etc.


----------



## Drowning Donkey (Dec 11, 2009)

Dana is, for the most part, a cool guy in my books. But there are sides of him that really trouble me.

The way he talks about fighters that used to fight for him. Tim Sylvia and AA were once UFC HW champions and I don't recall Dana ever saying a nice thing about those guys after their loss to Fedor. It's like they are a complete joke to him...

...I wonder if Cain Velasquez, Shane Carwin or JDS would move to Strikeforce how would Dana speak of them. Would anyone of them come off as more the a piece of s****t when he'd talk about them. I, for one, seriously doubt it.

If a fighter isn't involved in the UFC, he should just give the sport up as he'll never mount to anything. 

Dana may be consistant with his awnsers but he's far from fair. And I'll never be able to take the guy seriously about certain topics.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

morninglightmt said:


> I don't believe that's how P4P works. You can also say how would Lesner stack up against GSP if they both fought at 170 etc etc.


You will never know, cause Brock's size helps him to much to be successful! We don't know if it is all technigue what he uses to hold people down or if it is his weight. But with GSP we know it!

Same with Shane Carwin. We don't know if he would have so much KO power at 170 and KO you with one punch.

So HW's aren't debatable p4p wise in my mind! And like dave said, p4p was introduced for the lighter fighters not the Heavys.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> You will never know, cause Brock's size helps him to much to be successful! We don't know if it is all technigue what he uses to hold people down or if it is his weight. But with GSP we know it!
> 
> Same with Shane Carwin. We don't know if he would have so much KO power at 170 and KO you with one punch.
> 
> So HW's aren't debatable p4p wise in my mind! And like dave said, p4p was introduced for the lighter fighters not the Heavys.



I disagree... It is speculation for HWs as well if they were to fight in a different division....


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> I disagree... It is speculation for HWs as well if they were to fight in a different division....


I don't think it's all speculation for the lighter fighters. 

I mean imagine a GSP with all his skills to be 260 pounds or around Fedors weight 230-240. Don't you think he would tool the HW devision?? Including Brock's one dimensional Wrestling skills? Same goes for Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida, Shogun, BJ Penn of course.

But for Brock?! We don't really know if he is really that skilled of a fighter or if he relies a lot on his weight too. Cause his whole package wins him his fights. Should he really be a better MMA Wrestler then GSP?! We can't find out.. but for GSP we do!


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> I don't think it's all speculation for the lighter fighters.
> 
> I mean imagine a GSP with all his skills to be 260 pounds or around Fedors weight 230-240. Don't you think he would tool the HW devision?? Including Brock's one dimensional Wrestling skills? Same goes for Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida, Shogun, BJ Penn of course.
> 
> But for Brock?! We don't really know if he is really that skilled of a fighter or if he relies a lot on his weight too. Cause his whole package wins him his fights. Should he really be a better MMA Wrestler then GSP?! We can't find out.. but for GSP we do!


Fedor can cut weight... he's a small HW....

Vera did.. Randy did... Krystof did.... Alastair did.....

HWs can be argued in p4p no question... 

Remember there is no way to ever prove P4P status.... because in MMA anything can happen.... and since there is no P4P championship title than these rankings are a collective decision.... a decision based on facts and speculation....


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

You can rank the Heavys of course and they should be!

But even if a guy like Brock or Shane for example goes 20-0.. in my mind, you just can not rank him into the top 5. Top 10 maybe, 20 defintely but top 5 should be a no go. Fedor is a different story, cause he is only rarely the much bigger fighter and this would count for all HW's who fight at around 230-40. But for 265 lbs monsters.. you will never know how good they really are or how much the weight helps them to be so successful.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> You can rank the Heavys of course and they should be!
> 
> But even if a guy like Brock or Shane for example goes 20-0.. in my mind, you just can not rank him into the top 5. Top 10 maybe, 20 defintely but top 5 should be a no go. Fedor is a different story, cause he is only rarely the much bigger fighter and this would count for all HW's who fight at around 230-40. But for 265 lbs monsters.. you will never know how good they really are or how much the weight helps them to be so successful.




So theoretically you can't rank a LW like Edgar or a FW like Aldo because they could never make HW..... right?


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> So theoretically you can't rank a LW like Edgar or a FW like Aldo because they could never make HW..... right?


No no you misunderstood me here Rival. Of course you can rank them cause the question is "IF" they were a 260 pound monster.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> No no you misunderstood me here Rival. Of course you can rank them cause the question is "IF" they were a 260 pound monster.


So using that logic is how we rank the 260 lb monster.... "if" he was a speedy 155er...


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> So using that logic is how we rank the 260 lb monster.... "if" he was a speedy 155er...


Exactly and thats the point! If Brock were a speedy 155er or a normal 170er.. would he really be still that dominating?? Or would he miss his weight?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> Exactly and thats the point! If Brock were a speedy 155er or a normal 170er.. would he really be still that dominating?? Or would he miss his weight?



It's speculation bro... would Frankie Edgar miss 220? Maybe not pack on enough for the weigh in?


P4P status is clowdy... 

You'd have to have open weight fights sanctioned to ever concrete a p4p #1 fighter and have nobody debate it.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> It's speculation bro... would Frankie Edgar miss 220? Maybe not pack on enough for the weigh in?
> 
> 
> P4P status is clowdy...
> ...


Ok now I am :confused02:

I thought you got what I was trying to say..?!

Why should Frankie miss weight?? Thats not even in question here.

We assume that Frankie is a 260 pound HW fighter today. He just got the frame and body over night. Would he beat Brock Lesnar now?? Or would Brock Lesnar who becomes a LW fighter Overnight like Frankie became a HW beat Frankie Edgar at 155? Thats what I meant^^


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> Ok now I am :confused02:
> 
> I thought you got what I was trying to say..?!
> 
> ...



That's what I was assuming you meant... but you threw me off with this....



BobbyCooper said:


> Exactly and thats the point! If Brock were a speedy 155er or a normal 170er.. would he really be still that dominating?? Or would he miss his weight?


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Oh now haha^^ Sorry Rival that was my English again..

With, "Or would he miss weight" I meant, would Brock Lesnar miss his 260 pounds of muscle for a fight with Frankie at 155? Sorry for the confusion lol :thumb02:


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> Oh now haha^^ Sorry Rival that was my English again..
> 
> With, "Or would he miss weight" I meant, would Brock Lesnar miss his 260 pounds of muscle for a fight with Frankie at 155? Sorry for the confusion lol :thumb02:


Ah.. miss his weight advantage... well I think it's a possibility.. 

Because TBH I don't think Brock is a hell of an MMA fighter. 

I can see Carwin, JDS, and Cain all dethroning him.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

_RIVAL_ said:


> It's speculation bro... would Frankie Edgar miss 220? Maybe not pack on enough for the weigh in?
> 
> 
> P4P status is clowdy...
> ...


You have no idea what P4P is supposed to mean... :thumbsdown:

Having Aldo move up to 205 to fight shogun at 205 does not PROOF ANYTHING in the p4p rankings. If you dont understand why then you need to rethink your idea of p4p.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Ah.. miss his weight advantage... well I think it's a possibility..
> 
> Because TBH I don't think Brock is a hell of an MMA fighter.
> 
> I can see Carwin, JDS, and Cain all dethroning him.


Me neither^^


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

SideWays222 said:


> You have no idea what P4P is supposed to mean... :thumbsdown:
> 
> Having Aldo move up to 205 to fight shogun at 205 does not PROOF ANYTHING in the p4p rankings. If you dont understand why then you need to rethink your idea of p4p.


Is that right?

So..... If GSP was to defeat Anderson Silva at say a Catchweight fight or even at MW that wouldn't put GSP past Anderson in the P4P rankings?


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## Freiermuth (Nov 19, 2006)

I think HWs should generally left out of any P4P list as they are generally the 'best' anyways (i.e. Brock would defeat anyone on the P4P). The only people to come close to proving they were P4P were in early UFC and Pride open weight GP's.

This is of course my opinion, and another reason why P4P's are so controversial.


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> It works in reverse as well.... how would Fedors tools work at LW...if he was a 155er...


I've never heard it used that way but makes perfect sense to me, thanks for the insight. It's always nice to learn something or get a different perspective, especially when you're not dealing with assholes.


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## dave-stjohn (Nov 10, 2009)

Freiermuth said:


> I think HWs should generally left out of any P4P list as they are generally the 'best' anyways (i.e. Brock would defeat anyone on the P4P). The only people to come close to proving they were P4P were in early UFC and Pride open weight GP's.
> 
> This is of course my opinion, and another reason why P4P's are so controversial.


That's how I've always thought what it meant but Rival makes a good point about if you take a HW's skill set to see how it would work if he were in the lighter weights, makes for an interesting discussion.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Is that right?
> 
> So..... If GSP was to defeat Anderson Silva at say a Catchweight fight or even at MW that wouldn't put GSP past Anderson in the P4P rankings?


Mmm no i never said that. Since GSP is moving up then if he manages to beat Anderson Silva that would defininitely put him ahead in the p4p rankings. On the other hand if Anderson Silva beats GSP then it really doesnt do much for Anderson Silva in the p4p rankings. Anderson Silva will no matter what have the advantage against GSP based on size which totally negates the point of P4P. If GSP goes up to MW and loses to lets say... Chael Sonnen then Chael Sonnen doesnt automaticly become in the 1-3 best P4P fighters in the world. Thats because P4P has NOTHING to do with a WW Taking on a LHW and beating him to be considered the better p4p. P4P is just there to somewhat show which fighter is the undisputed best WITHOUT there being a weight difference. P4P doesnt mean that you can take on people heavier then yourself it never has and it never will.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

SideWays222 said:


> Since GSP is moving up then if he manages to beat Anderson Silva that would defininitely put him ahead in the p4p rankings.


Really? .... but didn't you just say.....




SideWays222 said:


> Thats because P4P has NOTHING to do with a WW Taking on a LHW and beating him to be considered the better p4p.


And you're the same guy that had the nerve to say.......




SideWays222 said:


> You have no idea what P4P is supposed to mean... :thumbsdown:


:confused02:


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Really? .... but didn't you just say.....
> 
> *Since most people have GSP and Anderson Silva in some kind of top 3 order for the P4P Rankings that means if GSP can MOVE up in weight (moving up in weight leaves you in a disadvantage even if you can match his weight in terms of pounds) with that disadvantage he has going and STILL being able to beat Anderson Silva then that would clearly proof he is the better fighter.
> *
> ...


LOL

Your funny dude... I hope i managed to explain it a bit better to you. If you still dont understand what i mean then i ran out of ways to explain it to you. Im sure there are a combination of words out there that you could understand but i guess i just dont have em.

And before i forget...



> You'd have to have open weight fights sanctioned to ever concrete a p4p #1 fighter and have nobody debate it.


Then you go on to making a reference about Anderson Silva and GSP having a catchweight fight to determine p4p? Do you even know what open weight means?? Im starting to question your knowledge about a few things now.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

*too dicey in here for me right now, I'll be back later*


EDIT: I am enjoying the debate though......


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

SideWays222 said:


> if GSP can MOVE up in weight (moving up in weight leaves you in a disadvantage even if you can match his weight in terms of pounds)with that disadvantage he has going and STILL being able to beat Anderson Silva then that would clearly proof he is the better fighter.





SideWays222 said:


> On the other hand if Anderson Silva beats GSP then it really doesnt do much for Anderson Silva in the p4p rankings


So if GSP wins he's the superior fighter..... and if he loses it doesn't matter because he was at a weight disadvantage and that does not reflect on his overall skillset in general compared to the opponent that he faced?

You're posting with a ridiculous double standard...

if such was the case than allowing any fighter to drop weight classes to compete would be at a horrible disadvantage to the entire lighter weight class since that specific fighter was naturally bigger than his compeditors....

*Bottem line if you can make weight for that weight class than win or lose it is your overall MMA skill set compared to your compeditors which garnishes you that outcome..*

It is what you are able to do as an MMA fighter in different weight classes which proves your overall mma superioriority in regards to compeditors...

If losing in a different weight class is only going to be followed by the inevitable "well he's not naturally supposed to be there anyway" than why even compete there or put such fights together?

That is a cop out.... and an excuse. 

*The minute any fighter is able to make weight for any specific weight class in question and competes there than he's to be looked at as a compeditor in that weight class....Period*




SideWays222 said:


> Il use GSP and Shogun as an example.


No let's use GSP - Anderson

Anderson has proven that he's able to fight in two different weight classes successfully defeating compeditors in both....

GSP has not done this. IMO this puts Anderson above GSP. 

But if you wanted to use GSP vs Shogun as an example as you initially did, than the only thing taking away from Shoguns status is the fact that he was slowed down by surgeries and suffered a loss because of it to Forrest Griffen, and a robbery loss to Lyoto Machida....

However using your logic...... the Shogun loss to Griffen doesn't matter since Forrest is a huge LHW.... and Shogun is a little smaller....

Wait.... that doesn't work there? Yeah it doesnt' because they both weighed in at 205.



SideWays222 said:


> GSP doesnt have to move up to LHW and fight shogun to be considered the better p4p fighter then he is.


No but to be considered above guys like Anderson he has to move somewhere... if not than how can you really know if he's superior to Anderson p4p? You see Anderson has proved such by jumping classes.... 

GSP on the other hand merely holds victories in the WW class. Until he's able to prove otherwise, Anderson is the better p4p fighter.




SideWays222 said:


> No matter what GSP does even with matching weights he will be in a clear disadvantage against Shogun


So....... had Rich Franklin knocked out Vitor Belfort @ 195 Vitor would still get that title shot against Anderson becuase of the disadvantage in weight right? I mean the loss really wouldn't matter because Vitor is a natural 185er... and Rich is fighting at LHW right now.....?

No? Oh... 




SideWays222 said:


> LOL Your funny dude... I hope i managed to explain it a bit better to you.


Nah but you did poke holes in your own logic which is just as effective.




SideWays222 said:


> Im sure there are a combination of words out there that you could understand but i guess i just dont have em.


Apparantly...



SideWays222 said:


> And before i forget...
> 
> Then you go on to making a reference about Anderson Silva and GSP having a catchweight fight to determine p4p?.


I think a catchweight between GSP and Anderson would be an excellent idea to establish an overall p4p superior fighter between the two. Yes I did say that.



SideWays222 said:


> Im starting to question your knowledge about a few things now


This is interesting since you've said nothing to add merit to your initial posts regarding this topic...


----------



## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

You could probably put together Anderson Silva's fights over the last 6 years of his career and probably spend the rest of your life waiting for someone to do the kind of things he's done, and I don't think you will. Maybe Bones develops a skillset, keeps taking it up a notch and becomes Andersonesqe, it's possible.

Silva'a brilliance in athleticism, pulling KOs out of his pocket, the things he can do off his back, unorthodox strikes, his chin, as a boxer, his ability to take no damage in a fight, etc. ah. I'd like to see him in a real fight before he get's too old or retires. I don't see him fighting more than 2 years. 



Before the Maia fight and "he doesent deserve GSP," Anderson was set to move down to 170 and fight GSP... because GSP needs atleast a year to move to 185 or whatever. Please, - EDGE ANDERSON

Anderson Silva best, most comfortable weight is probably at 205, in terms of dominating guys with speed and power - and outside of a great wrestler with outstanding GnP, no one's going to beat him there. Just from the standpoint how a person dominates fights when he wins, outside of the showboat fights, Silva's demonstrations in MMA have been nothing short of brilliant. 

*Anderson is clearly #1*


The rest to rank. Fedor is all time great and used to be dominant force still undefeated, GSP wins all the rounds, Aldo is going to be be LW soon enough, Penn - who knows about him.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

MrObjective said:


> *Anderson is clearly #1*



I agree.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

_RIVAL_ said:


> So if GSP wins he's the superior fighter..... and if he loses it doesn't matter because he was at a weight disadvantage and that does not reflect on his overall skillset in general compared to the opponent that he faced?
> 
> You're posting with a ridiculous double standard...
> 
> ...


Pretty much your just not going to get it. The logic isnt flawed what so ever but there is definitely a double standard for guys moving up in weight. You dont seem to realize that P4P is some *imaginary* rankings that proofs what fighter is the best fighter in the world. If i could take a a ray gun and turn GSP into a natural MW and then he faced Anderson Silva then we could start seeing who the true P4P is. Having open weight sanctioned fights does nothing for this...Your argument NEVER disproof d anything i said you merely rambled for most of it. P4P will ALWAYS have some holes in it and thats just because there is no fair way to EVER determine who the best is if there was no size advantage/disadvantage for the fighters.

I gotta say... it does surprise me that you think open weight fights will proof who the true p4p is. :confused03:

One day you might understand... but i doubt that day is today.

Also... You dont seem to understand why people move down in weight either, so let me explain that to you also.

Usually fighters who are getting whooped in their weight category decide to move down in weight because of the idea that there will be a size advantage once they moved down. Guys like Anderson Silva who are Dominant move up in weight for the fact that there will be tougher challenges based on the supposed size advantage of the LHW, i say supposed because Anderson Silva is just as big of a LHW as the rest of them are(in my opinion).

You understand the concept of moving up and down in weight now?

I cant wait for you to take 2 different words now and quote them then say something cool like "but waitttttttttt a minuteeee you just said this... no no no"


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

fullcontact said:


> 1. Anderson
> 2. GSP
> 3. BJ Penn
> 4. Edgar
> ...


Fedor isn't even a top 5 HW IMO. And edgar beat penn. It's a decent list.


----------



## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

SideWays222 said:


> Pretty much your just not going to get it.


Well Sideways I'm not seeing eye to eye with you because you are going back on things that you say..... and trying to make a point that is inaccurate.



SideWays222 said:


> The logic isnt flawed what so ever but there is definitely a double standard for guys moving up in weight.


No there isn't. You are placing the double standard. 



SideWays222 said:


> You dont seem to realize that P4P is some *imaginary* rankings that proofs what fighter is the best fighter in the world.


Did you just use "imaginary" and "proof" in the same sentence? Oh boy... look, when a fighter begins to clean house different weight classes he does clear the water a bit in regards to his p4p status.




SideWays222 said:


> If i could take a a ray gun and turn GSP into a natural MW and then he faced Anderson Silva then we could start seeing who the true P4P is.


No if GSP and Anderson Silva met at a catchweight than we could see who the superior MMA fighter is.

But if I could take a ray gun and zap your argument to add a bit more merit to your post than I would most definatly do you the favor.




SideWays222 said:


> Having open weight sanctioned fights does nothing for this...


So... if Frankie Edgar was able to defeat say..... a number 1 contender in the MW division in an open tourney.... and than go back to 155 and defend his title he wouldn't be considered a better p4p fighter than say... John Fitch who fought his entire carreer at 170?



SideWays222 said:


> Your argument NEVER disproof d anything i said


In whos eyes?



SideWays222 said:


> you merely rambled for most of it.


Is that what you kids are calling it now days?



SideWays222 said:


> P4P will ALWAYS have some holes in it .


Some holes?? According to you a few posts ago.... p4p means *"if" *you could use a *"ray gun"*...... that explanation in itself has much more than *"some holes" *



SideWays222 said:


> Your argument NEVER disproof d anything i said


See above post...




SideWays222 said:


> Pretty much your just not going to get it.


Well Sideways if you would stop contradicting yourself your points may become easier to understand...





SideWays222 said:


> I gotta say... it does surprise me that you think open weight fights will proof who the true p4p is. :confused03:


Between Anderson and GSP a catchweight or open weight fight, which ever made the fighters both feel that they could maximize their fighting potential I beleive would determine the better of the two...




SideWays222 said:


> One day you might understand... but i doubt that day is today.


Even with your vast well of mma knowledge? You can't help?



SideWays222 said:


> Also... You dont seem to understand why people move down in weight either, so let me explain that to you also.


This should be good.....




SideWays222 said:


> Guys like Anderson Silva who are Dominant move up in weight for the fact that there will be tougher challenges based on the supposed size advantage of the LHW, i say supposed because Anderson Silva is just as big of a LHW as the rest of them are(in my opinion).


Well at least you got one right... maybe Anderson. But other fighters typically move up in weight because they have a hard time making their cut.

Guys like Robbie Lawler, Alastair Overeem, Nick Diaz, and probably soon Anthony Johnson who has actually had to be carried to his weigh in before because he was so severly dehydrated from dropping so much to make his weight class.....



SideWays222 said:


> You understand the concept of moving up and down in weight now?


Quit looking in the mirror and return to our debate good sir.



SideWays222 said:


> I cant wait for you to take 2 different words now and quote them then say something cool like "but waitttttttttt a minuteeee you just said this... no no no"


As soon as you discontinue contradicting yourself I will be unable to oblige you my friend.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Well Sideways I'm not seeing eye to eye with you because you are going back on things that you say..... and trying to make a point that is inaccurate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Did you just use "imaginary" and "proof" in the same sentence? Oh boy... look, when a fighter begins to clean house different weight classes he does clear the water a bit in regards to his p4p status.*

Lmao exactly what i thought you would do. Your insecurities show so much in your posts its not even funny. You haven't done ANYTHING to strengthen your argument all youv done is take random things from my posts put them together and then say something that you "think" is clever... all in the hopes of weakening my argument. Are you so insecure in your MMA knowledge that you dont want to throw anything out there that might be false?? Dont worry buddy... im starting to understand that you dont know alot about MMA but people are here to help you and if you say something thats incorrect people with correct you and you will know a bit more because of it. This part of the post has nothing to do with the discussion but its just something i noticed with the way you post. You never bother to strengthen your argument rather you try to weaken others... and you don't do a good job at that either.

Now that i got that out of the way im going to continue.


I have NEVER contradicted anything i have said.. only reason it might seem that way to YOU is because you take 2 complete random things, ignore the context, then put it together and act like it doesn't make sense. If you would stop doing that then you would actually be able to see that i haven't contradicted anything.

Yes i did use imaginary and proof.... instead of focusing on my choice of words you should focus on the meaning of post. But wait... that goes against the way you have discussions... so that probably wont happen. :sarcastic12:

Yes some people cant make the weight cut and have to be dragged out in an ambulance so survive it. You ever wonder why they try so hard to make this cut though instead of just moving up a weight class???? DUrrrrrrrr cause fighting at lower weight classes while being the bigger guy gives you a advantage. Something you seem to have never learned.

Return to our debate?? I have never steered off-course. I just took some extra time to educate you on why people move up and down in weight, so you could see the bigger picture. Sadly that wont be happening since you have this amazing skill of taking 2 irrelevant things, then making a comment about how it doesnt make sense... when they weren't even used in the same context. Its pretty brilliant to say the least. 

Yes i did use the word ray gun to make a point. Seeing as how i said P4P is an imaginary ranking that will NEVER have a clear number 1. So if you want a clear number 1 in a imaginary ranking list then you would have to have some imaginary item to make that happen. Its pretty sad that i have to explain everything to you... 

If Frankie Edgar was able to defeat the number 1 contender in the MW division then that would be pretty damn amazing. But if the number 1 contender defeats Frankie Edgar then how the HELL is that impressive?? He just beat a natural LW yet now all of the sudden the MW is supposed to be in the top 5 in p4p rankings??? No Rival... thats not how it works. But im sure your somehow going to *twist* my words once again... then say something that has Nothing to do with anything but try to make it seem like it does. :thumbsup:

Also in your opinion Lyoto Machida should be top 4 best P4P fighters. Seeing as how BJ Penn moved up to LHW and fought Machida AND LOST this means that P4P Machida is the better fighter then BJ. *NOPE* Thats not how it works rival. Even though BJ was able to make the weight he was obviously at a clear disadvantage going into that fight. But no... in your mind if someone can make the weight then their on even playing fields. :confused03:
Lmao... its like having BJ move up to face Brock Lesnar... and if Lesnar wins then he takes Bj's spot in the p4p rankings.
LOL

I cant wait to see how your going to turn this one around... you might just take a word from each of the sentences... quote them and then pretend that thats what i said. :sarcastic01:


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

why wouldn't frankie edgar be in the P4P, he beat bj and just imagine if he was in the lhw div. he would be wrecking people with his boxing


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

_RIVAL_ and SideWays.......thank you both, I really have enjoyed the debate....raise01: Repped either way you guys get an "A" for effort....

Dont suppose you care who I think is correct do you guys????


BJ was really light when he fought Machida, probably shouldnt have fought him, but its BJ, he aint backin down....


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## dario03 (Oct 8, 2008)

There is a double standard when it comes to P4P. Like sideways said if BJ fought Brock and BJ won it would help his P4P standing a lot, however if Brock won it wouldn't really help him at all since hes so much bigger. Actually if they fought and Brock won but didn't dominate it would probably hurt his standings like a extreme version of how people dis-credit Brock for not dominating Randy.

However in the case of a catchweight fight between GSP and Anderson it wouldn't come into play. If they fought at say 177lbs then Anderson would probably only weigh ~200lbs come fight night. So if he beat GSP it could help his ranking because GSP is suppose to be around ~195lbs now (I think). This size difference isn't a big deal so even though Anderson has a size advantage its not enough to greatly effect the outcome of the fight.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

dario03 said:


> There is a double standard when it comes to P4P. Like sideways said if BJ fought Brock and BJ won it would help his P4P standing a lot, however if Brock won it wouldn't really help him at all since hes so much bigger. Actually if they fought and Brock won but didn't dominate it would probably hurt his standings like a extreme version of how people dis-credit Brock for not dominating Randy.
> 
> However in the case of a catchweight fight between GSP and Anderson it wouldn't come into play. If they fought at say 177lbs then Anderson would probably only weigh ~200lbs come fight night. So if he beat GSP it could help his ranking because GSP is suppose to be around ~195lbs now (I think). This size difference isn't a big deal so even though Anderson has a size advantage its not enough to greatly effect the outcome of the fight.


True... i agree with you to a certain extant. I still think though that if Anderson Silva wants it to help his p4p rankings he would have to beat GSP decisively. While GSP if he can grind out a decision it would help his p4p rankings out alot. Also Anderson Silva is a big LHW... and a HUGE MW. Even if they met a catch weight i think you would see a pretty clear size and strength advantage favoring Silva. Rich Franklin was a huge/strong MW yet Anderson Silva tossed him around like a ragdoll.

_Anyway thats not even how this argument started. It started by him saying that Open Weight Fight tourney needs to sanctioned to determine a clear p4p. And that goes against the whole idea of p4p._

And *ColdCall*

2 things...

When did you stop being a mod??? And i would definitely like to hear who you agree with. Whether its with me or him, the forum is a place for discussion and opinions. :thumb02:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> True... i agree with you to a certain extant. I still think though that if Anderson Silva wants it to help his p4p rankings he would have to beat GSP decisively. While GSP if he can grind out a decision it would help his p4p rankings out alot. Also Anderson Silva is a big LHW... and a HUGE MW. Even if they met a catch weight i think you would see a pretty clear size and strength advantage favoring Silva. Rich Franklin was a huge/strong MW yet Anderson Silva tossed him around like a ragdoll.
> 
> _Anyway thats not even how this argument started. It started by him saying that Open Weight Fight tourney needs to sanctioned to determine a clear p4p. And that goes against the whole idea of p4p._
> 
> ...


Well I will try to keep it very simple, there is no such thing as P4P best....its semantics and alot of what you posted was kinda twisted. I mean I understood every part of what you meant and I understood every part of what _RIVAL_ meant as well.

I think the debate has too many factors to say that there is a P4P best and that only be one guy. Going back to weight classes, I suppose that a guy that fights at 155, 170, whatever weight and is clearly always better has the most non blemished record would be the P4P best in that class. However, I also think this point of guys moving all around in weight classes is dumb because a guy moving down ALWAYS will have the advantage over the guy he is coming down to face. (thicker bones = harder hit) Basic example for me......Anderson beating GSP does nothing to bolster Anderson's case. Same being if he lost. He is P4P best @ MW....I dont care if he fights GSP and beats him Anderson is naturally bigger, and conversely if GSP were to beat Anderson you could factor a weight cut in there from Andersons natural size regardless at being the larger of the two, just because some guys dont cut well....even though Anderson would have the thicker bone density naturally bigger body. I am not contradicting myself either there are just that many factors, but yes even though he should be at an advantage..................before someone asks.

The point is it will never be clear and the above proves it. In all honesty anyone on this thread should admit there really is no way to factor P4P best...other than just ranking by weight classes....

Some will argue this, thats not what I'm here to do this is just the opinion of the poster...:thumbsup:

I stopped being a MOD prob in Jan or about that time....

I would probably say I agree with you on this one, or at least our opinions are the closest....mainly because I dont listen to P4P...If I were asked to select 1 it would be Fedor, and no one is coming up to fight him at HW and beat him...


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## Brettmk (May 24, 2010)

Lol @ the administrator looking like an idiot in this thread. Way to represent.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Brettmk said:


> Lol @ the administrator looking like an idiot in this thread. Way to represent.


 
_RIVAL_ is one of the better members of this forum and def know his shit when it comes to MMA, this is a topic that basically is a matter of opinion...


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

coldcall420 said:


> Well I will try to keep it very simple, there is no such thing as P4P best....its semantics and alot of what you posted was kinda twisted. I mean I understood every part of what you meant and I understood every part of what _RIVAL_ meant as well.
> 
> I think the debate has too many factors to say that there is a P4P best and that only be one guy. Going back to weight classes, I suppose that a guy that fights at 155, 170, whatever weight and is clearly always better has the most non blemished record would be the P4P best in that class. However, I also think this point of guys moving all around in weight classes is dumb because a guy moving down ALWAYS will have the advantage over the guy he is coming down to face. (thicker bones = harder hit) Basic example for me......Anderson beating GSP does nothing to bolster Anderson's case. Same being if he lost. He is P4P best @ MW....I dont care if he fights GSP and beats him Anderson is naturally bigger, and conversely if GSP were to beat Anderson you could factor a weight cut in there from Andersons natural size regardless at being the larger of the two, just because some guys dont cut well....even though Anderson would have the thicker bone density naturally bigger body. I am not contradicting myself either there are just that many factors, but yes even though he should be at an advantage..................before someone asks.
> 
> ...


Yeah i get what you mean. I think i pointed out a few times in my posts that there is no clear way to determine a clear p4p as it is. - Repd

Also why did you decide to step down?? Just dont have the time to focus on the forum right now?


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

There is just no clear cut definition so its up to people's perception and that will always have variations..:thumbsup:


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