# Fighter Camp - does it matter?



## sk double i (Apr 13, 2007)

The comments and feedback on this forum for the most part is great. But I'm tired of hearing [fighter] needs to go to Greg Jackson's camp or american top team suggestions as the only way to get better. It's true that fighters need different training partners and coaches to evolve but it's not always the case. 

take example some of the top guys who are not with top camps:

UFC lightweight champion: BJ Penn
Camp: McDonalds

Fedor
Camp: Red Devil

Machida
Camp: Machida

UFC HW champ: Brock Lesnar
Camp: Minnesota Martial Arts

Miguel Torres
Camp: Torres


What do you guys think, do you NEED to be at a big camp in order to be great, or do you think champions are born?


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

People give Greg Jackson all of this credit as some amazing trainer, but they tend to ignore that a lot of guys were already big names before they went to train with him. Marquardt had a ton of experience before he went there, same with GSP, Rashad, Joe Daddy, Guida, Arlovski, etc. Diego started out there but has actually had more success since he left. Jardine has been with Jackson for his entire career and has never risen above a lower B level fighter. Im not saying Greg Jackson isnt a great trainer, im just saying you have to put what his camp is all about into perspective. The thing that makes that a good camp is having great guys to train with. I think having good training partners is just as if not more important then having a good trainer. People can give you gameplans and advice all day long, but if your not training in a competitive environment, your gonna be overwhelmed when you face guys that are. Thats my take on it.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Machida trains at black house along with 
Anderson Silva 
Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira 
Antônio Rogério Nogueira
Rafael "Feijao" Cavalcante
Jose Aldo 
Paulo Filho 
Junior dos Santos
Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza

I have said it before its not about the camp its about the sparing partners I think Fedor and BJ are the only exceptions to that but I even feel BJ could be even better if he trained with better guys.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Machida trains at black house along with
> Anderson Silva
> Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira
> Antônio Rogério Nogueira
> ...


I think a lot of good guys actually do go and train with Bj. Not neccessarily top guys, but UFC level fighters. Faber, lauzon, Nelson, Grove, etc. I dont know much about Fedors camp.


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## _JB_ (May 30, 2007)

Machida fights out of Black House....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_House_(MMA)


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

Yeah think Lesnar has his own camp now too...


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## sk double i (Apr 13, 2007)

Machida has an affiliation with Blackhouse but he primarily trains out of his own camp. BH is more Anderson and Noguiera

A lot of fighters claim to be part of certain camps, but dont train there full time.


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## sk double i (Apr 13, 2007)

Look at Roy Nelson, he trains out of his basement...


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## _JB_ (May 30, 2007)

sk double i said:


> Look at Roy Nelson, he trains out of his basement...


And he is an ass hole.........


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## FredFish1 (Apr 22, 2007)

Him being an asshole is completely irrelevant... 
I'm not fully up to date on Big Country, but the majority of his training if what I'm lead to believe is correct, was done by him self in his basement. Pretty impressive accomplishments for what little he had to work with.


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## Ground'N'Pound5 (Aug 7, 2009)

i guess people believe if you go to a camp that house one of the P4P fighters in MMA (i.e. Greg Jackson Camp: Georges St Pierre) you will then become a great fighter.

I would believe the same, GSP is trained by Greg Jackson and he wins fights against difficult opponents so i would go to that camp to try to be like GSP


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## sk double i (Apr 13, 2007)

Ground'N'Pound5 said:


> i guess people believe if you go to a camp that house one of the P4P fighters in MMA (i.e. Greg Jackson Camp: Georges St Pierre) you will then become a great fighter.
> 
> I would believe the same, GSP is trained by Greg Jackson and he wins fights against difficult opponents so i would go to that camp to try to be like GSP


Greg jackson is not even his main trainer, it's Frias Zahabi.


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## Ground'N'Pound5 (Aug 7, 2009)

sk double i said:


> Greg jackson is not even his main trainer, it's Frias Zahabi.


yeah i know but people who are casual MMA fans know that GSP goes to Greg Jackson obviously because it says Greg Jackson's Camp logo on his banner before fights and on his trunks

casual fans would go *oh* he goes to Greg Jackson's Camp? That camp must be pretty good because GSP is awesome

Hard core MMA fans like us know that thats the ONLY place he goes to train


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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

But look what a Proper S&C Trainer did to BJ...

Machida might do a lot of his training with his family but he also trains with Silva and the Nogs.

Lesnar has said that a normal camp won't do for him because he's way too big for most of the good guys, he's looking to build the best HW camp in the country.

Fedor i can give you, but he's a machine.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Machida trains at black house along with
> Anderson Silva
> Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira
> Antônio Rogério Nogueira
> ...



I agree with Fedor and BJ. BJ is just now IMO coming into his prime with his new coach/es. Fedor is an exception since most of the Red Devils seem to be cans... I'd love to see what Fedor would do if he were at Black House (IMO the best camp by far). I'd also like to mention that Maia is becoming slowly affiliated with Black House. :thumbsup:

Fedor did do a lot of out-of-country training in places like Thailand so I wonder if that has something to do with it.


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## sk double i (Apr 13, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> I agree with Fedor and BJ. BJ is just now IMO coming into his prime with his new coach/es. Fedor is an exception since most of the Red Devils seem to be cans... I'd love to see what Fedor would do if he were at Black House (IMO the best camp by far). I'd also like to mention that Maia is becoming slowly affiliated with Black House. :thumbsup:
> 
> Fedor did do a lot of out-of-country training in places like Thailand so I wonder if that has something to do with it.


Why do you consider Black House as the best camp? How does one determine this, by the number of UFC champions they produce? 

Every camp has their own method of training, some might be good for you, some may not. It all depends on the fighter. There are plenty of promotions and amazing fighters out there who do not have a contract with the UFC and run very successful gyms. 

Going to a big name camp does not guarantee you success in the ring.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

JBS said:


> And he is an ass hole.........


Haha this is so completely random!

I think that fighters at great camps such as Black House, ATT, and Greg Jackson's camp benefit a lot from the people in which they are training with. It does not mean that someone that trains at a smaller camp will always be below these fighters, but these fighters do have more tools at their disposal to become better fighters.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

sk double i said:


> The comments and feedback on this forum for the most part is great. But I'm tired of hearing [fighter] needs to go to Greg Jackson's camp or american top team suggestions as the only way to get better. It's true that fighters need different training partners and coaches to evolve but it's not always the case.
> 
> take example some of the top guys who are not with top camps:
> 
> ...


The premise of this post is totally off.

B.J. trains with a half-dozen solid lightweight fighters (Shane Nelson, Mike Aina, etc.). He doesn't work consistently under a top coach, but he does come to California periodically or bring guys out there who can help him advance his training.

Machida trains with Black House, one of the best camps in Brazil. So I don't know why the f*ck you brought him up.

Brock Lesnar trains at Minnesota Martial Arts Academy which, while hardly one of the better MMA camps, has a lot of guys dedicated to improving his game. He also has spend a lot of time working with Comprido and a number of other big names to improve his skill. It may not be at the center of his training, but he knows how important it is to surround himself with great, versatile guys.

Fedor runs his own camp, and while he's not working in a top stable of fighters, his coaching staff is dedicated to his training. It's not the same as the team format that exists at ATT or Jackson Submission Fighting, but it works for him, and it's not as though he's training himself out in the woods or something. He's got lots of people with great backgrounds working with him constantly.

Being a great fighter isn't something you can do on your own. Training with a good camp is important, having guys who push you every day is important.

Some guys are physically bigger and stronger than other guys, so there's definitely a natural component to MMA, but training in an environment with lots of very technical, dangerous fighters is a great way to ensure that you're constantly being pushed and always learning new skills.

Also, it helps to have great sparring partners. If you're keeping up with a great fighter in sparring, then it really does help in preparing for a fight.


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## sk double i (Apr 13, 2007)

IronMan said:


> The premise of this post is totally off.
> 
> B.J. trains with a half-dozen solid lightweight fighters (Shane Nelson, Mike Aina, etc.). He doesn't work consistently under a top coach, but he does come to California periodically or bring guys out there who can help him advance his training.
> 
> ...


I think you missed my point. 

First of all, Machida is affiliated with Blackhouse (sounds like more of a business marketing tool for the gym) but his training is done at his own gym. That’s why the f*ck I mentioned machida, because he represents Machida Karate, a relatively unknown gym. 

If you're at the professional level, you obviously have to be training with good guys. That goes for S&C, sparring partners, boxing, kickboxing, wrestling coaches etc. That I'm not arguing with that. My point was to say (assuming the fighter has proper trainers and training partners) that simply moving to Greg Jackson's team or ATT or Blackhouse will not guaranty them success or make them a better fighter. Which is why I brought up the ex. Bj, machida, lesnar, torres etc. who don’t come from these big name gym's but are champions.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

If you believe Machida is some kind of modern day samurai who trains in the jungle with his master than you have seen way to many Kung Fu movies, the reality is he trains extensively with a stacked group of guys, thats why he won't fight Littel Nog and Anderson Silva because they are close training partners. I gotta laught though that its a buisiness marketing tool, really they have one of the most stacked groups of fighter of any gym in MMA and considering he was training there when being Lyoto Machida meant nothing your opinion holds no water.


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## sk double i (Apr 13, 2007)

Toxic said:


> If you believe Machida is some kind of modern day samurai who trains in the jungle with his master than you have seen way to many Kung Fu movies, the reality is he trains extensively with a stacked group of guys, thats why he won't fight Littel Nog and Anderson Silva because they are close training partners. I gotta laught though that its a buisiness marketing tool, really they have one of the most stacked groups of fighter of any gym in MMA and considering he was training there when being Lyoto Machida meant nothing your opinion holds no water.


Toxic - when did I ever say that? you're missing the entire point of my post. I'm not saying the machidas, the bj penn's the fedors are not getting the proper training they need. 

If you dont think having Anderson Silva, Noguiera and Machida's name attached to a gym wont sell memberships, thats laughable. It's a brand, just like Extreme Couture. And it is a business. I never once discredited the gym or its success


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

sk double i said:


> Why do you consider Black House as the best camp? How does one determine this, by the number of UFC champions they produce?
> 
> Every camp has their own method of training, some might be good for you, some may not. It all depends on the fighter. There are plenty of promotions and amazing fighters out there who do not have a contract with the UFC and run very successful gyms.
> 
> Going to a big name camp does not guarantee you success in the ring.


Sparring partners. End of story, good sparring partners are the very basis for a good fighter.

*Maia* - best MMA JJ in the world. Even Frank Mir said he thought he knew jiu-jitsu, before he rolled with Maia, but now he realizes he has a lot of work to do.

*Big Nog* - unreal amount of experience fighting top competition, top-tier jiu jitsu

*Lil Nog* - Gold medalist boxer

*Anderson Silva* - Top Muay Thai striker

*JDS* - Champion kick boxer

*Jacare* - Top-tier BJJ and exceptionally technical striking

*Jose Aldo* - Currently considered one of the best strikers in MMA

*Lyoto Machida* - Top-tier standup and unique style

Black House has three current champions and two former champions, one kickboxing champion, one Thai boxing champion plus the likes of Filho and Feijao. 


There's just no gym like Black House, every fighter in it constantly improves and is either an up-and-comer or established legend.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Machida trains at black house along with
> Anderson Silva
> Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira
> Antônio Rogério Nogueira
> ...


Fedor trains with a host of Russian/Euro fighters including his brother and Mousasi, so I'd say he has a good camp.

BJ doesn't, but he's ridiculous in that he trains with guys like Freddie Roach and I think he spars BJJ with his brothers, don't quote me on that I'm just guessing.

And I'd say Jacare's BJJ > Maia's


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Fedor trains with a host of Russian/Euro fighters including his brother and Mousasi, so I'd say he has a good camp.
> 
> BJ doesn't, but he's ridiculous in that he trains with guys like Freddie Roach and I think he spars BJJ with his brothers, don't quote me on that I'm just guessing.
> 
> And I'd say Jacare's BJJ > Maia's


Except that Maia beat Jacare in a BJJ match... 

Perfect example of how you talk out of your butt.






JIU JITSU

World titles

5x World Champion
black, medium-heavy CBJJO 2005
black, absolute CBJJO by 2003
black, absolute CBJJO by 2002
black, medium-heavy CBJJO by 2002
brown, medium-heavy CBJJ by 2001
purple, medium-heavy CBJJ by 2000
» Pan American champion 2006 – black, medium heavy – CBJJ
» Vice Pan-American Champion 2005 – black, medium-heavy – CBJJ
» North American champion in Jiu-Jitsu 2005 – black, absolute
» North American champion in Jiu-Jitsu 2005 – black, medium-heavy
» Placed 3rd World 2005 – black, medium-heavy – CBJJ
» Vice World Champion 1999 – blue, medium – CBJJ

Brazilian Titles
» Brazilian champion 2001 – brown, medium-heavy – CBJJ
» Brazilian Vice Champion 2006 – black, Absolute – CBJJ
» 3rd placed in the Campeonato Brasileiro 2006 – black, medium-heavy – CBJJ
» 4x Champion Brazilian Teams
brown / black, heavy CBJJ 2003
brown / black, heavy CBJJO 2002
brown / black, heavy CBJJ 2001
purple, heavy CBJJ 2000
» 7x Champion Paulista
black, absolute 2006
black, absolute 2004
black, medium-heavy 2004
black, absolute 2003
black, medium-heavy 2002
Brown, absolute 2001
brown, medium-heavy 2001
purple, absolute 2000
purple, medium-heavy 2000
blue, medium 1999

JIUJITSU WITHOUT KIMONO (submission wrestling)
» Champion ADCC 2007 – category up to 88 kg
» Vice Champion ADCC 2005 – up to 88 kg category
» Selective champion of the Brazilian ADCC 2005 to 2004 – up to 88 kg category.
» Winner of NAGA Miami 2006 – up to 86kg category and absolute
» Winner of 1st Tournament Banescamp of Submission – 2004 – up to 90 kg category
» Winner of Circuit Submission Fight 2002 – Professional Category (Winner of 1st and 2nd stages – absolute category)
» Winner of Stage 1 of Circle Submission Fight 2001 – Advanced up to 85 kg Category

OTHER TITLES
Black belt
» Champion 1º desafio Black Belt de Jiu-Jitsu
» Champion 1º Luta Casada de Jiu-Jitsu
» Brazilian Championship 2002 CBJJ – 3rd placed
» 1st Challenge Cup of Jiu-Jitsu (Paulínia) – Champion complete
» 1st Challenge Bandsports – champion
» Alliance Sao Paulo Cup 2002 – champion with and without kimono – over 80kg

Make no mistake, Demian Maia is top 3 in the world for grappling. His wrestling is amazing, his Judo throws are perfect, and his BJJ is the best both in MMA and Gi. 

Wanderlei Silva said he's got no one at his camp that can even remotely challenge Maia, the Nog Brothers say Maia's BJJ is perfection, Frank Mir said Maia's BJJ made him realize how much he has to learn. 

So no, you might say Jacare's BJJ > Maia's, but you're mistaken. And JDS has a brown belt from Maia and Nog and has already submitted someone in under a minute - and that was years before Nog and Maia got ahold of him.


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## Intermission (Oct 1, 2009)

Now that ^^

is called shutting someone up aha


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

sk double i said:


> I think you missed my point.
> 
> First of all, Machida is affiliated with Blackhouse (sounds like more of a business marketing tool for the gym) but his training is done at his own gym. That’s why the f*ck I mentioned machida, because he represents Machida Karate, a relatively unknown gym.


Again, he trains and spars with many of the fighters from a major camp regularly. The guy has a gym affiliation.



> If you're at the professional level, you obviously have to be training with good guys. That goes for S&C, sparring partners, boxing, kickboxing, wrestling coaches etc. That I'm not arguing with that. My point was to say (assuming the fighter has proper trainers and training partners) that simply moving to Greg Jackson's team or ATT or Blackhouse will not guaranty them success or make them a better fighter. Which is why I brought up the ex. Bj, machida, lesnar, torres etc. who don’t come from these big name gym's but are champions.


Again, they're training with other world class competitors. Skill sets matter in MMA, and working with guys who come from different background is important when it comes to building versatility. Getting those guys all in one place is a great way of doing that. So's traveling (which B.J. did early in his career, as did Torres).

Training with Jackson Submission Fighting or ATT isn't going to help if you've got no work ethic or athleticism.

No one gets good by osmosis. There are plenty of guys that train with major teams that suck, and there are guys that train alone that go far, but the guys who get to the top always branch out and work with other guys.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

sk double i said:


> If you dont think having Anderson Silva, Noguiera and Machida's name attached to a gym wont sell memberships, thats laughable. It's a brand, just like Extreme Couture. And it is a business. I never once discredited the gym or its success


I think your a little confused my point was Black House was stacked when Machida had no name value and yet he was affiliated with them then which would have made no sense if it was some kind of marketing scam, it would be like Greg Jackson using Brendan Shuab pre TUF to market his gym when he has guys like Rashad and GSP.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> Except that Maia beat Jacare in a BJJ match...
> 
> Perfect example of how you talk out of your butt.
> 
> ...


First off, it's called an opinion, calm the **** down.

Second of all, I wouldn't put too much weight on one fight. Nor would I put to much weight on H2H matchups.


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## AK-Bronco (Feb 25, 2008)

sk double i said:


> Which is why I brought up the ex. Bj, machida, lesnar, torres etc. who don’t come from these big name gym's but are champions.


Torres holds a belt?


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> First off, it's called an opinion, calm the **** down.
> 
> Second of all, I wouldn't put too much weight on one fight. Nor would I put to much weight on H2H matchups.



Oh okay, so you're fine with passing off totally wrong assumptions as fact as long as you can label them "opinion." I'll keep that in mind.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> Fedor trains with a host of Russian/Euro fighters including his brother and Mousasi, so I'd say he has a good camp.
> 
> BJ doesn't, but he's ridiculous in that he trains with guys like Freddie Roach and I think he spars BJJ with his brothers, don't quote me on that I'm just guessing.
> 
> And *I'd say Jacare's BJJ > Maia's*


That is indeed an opinion.


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## shamboner (Dec 13, 2009)

AK-Bronco said:


> Torres holds a belt?


not anymore he was beaten by bowels for the WEC 135lb title. But torres held the belt for a while and was regarded as one of the best fighters in the world


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## sk double i (Apr 13, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Training with Jackson Submission Fighting or ATT isn't going to help if you've got no work ethic or athleticism.
> 
> No one gets good by osmosis. There are plenty of guys that train with major teams that suck, and there are guys that train alone that go far, but the guys who get to the top always branch out and work with other guys.[/FONT]


This was the point I was trying to make.


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## Indestructibl3 (Apr 2, 2009)

FredFish1 said:


> Him being an asshole is completely irrelevant...
> I'm not fully up to date on Big Country, but the majority of his training if what I'm lead to believe is correct, was done by him self in his basement. Pretty impressive accomplishments for what little he had to work with.


Agreed 100%.


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## Intermission (Oct 1, 2009)

Indestructibl3 said:


> Agreed 100%.


As much as I hate Roy, anyone who can accomplish that from there basement is a inspiration.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

I wish CroCop had similar luck training out of his basement.


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

khoveraki said:


> Except that Maia beat Jacare in a BJJ match...
> 
> Perfect example of how you talk out of your butt.
> 
> ...


Actually, you're not entirely correct.

Jacare has just as good credentials as Maia. As a matter of fact, they grappled in ADCC in 2005 at under 88 KG and Maia lost to Jacare. They have grappled quite a few times, and I believe it's just Maia is a better Gi guy and Jacare is a better no Gi guy. To say one is better then the other is wrong, they can both beat each other on any given day in either Gi or no Gi. Plus Jacare has done much better in ADCC absolute then Maia has.


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## Finnsidious (Mar 14, 2009)

IronMan said:


> Again, he trains and spars with many of the fighters from a major camp regularly. The guy has a gym affiliation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree pretty much with this, but the most important thing by far is basically work ethic.

There is almost no such thing as a true prodigy, if you want to be the best or one of the best, you basically devote your life to training. If you do that and have competant trainers and partners, you will succeed.

The one thing every champion or top contender has in common in MMA is they work like dogs. GSP is often talked about as having so much natural ability and athleticism, but he trains like a madman, he would succeed anywhere. Being in Jackson's camp gives him access to resources he might not get in other places, but those resources won't make a mediocre fighter great, only your work ethic can do that.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Finnsidious said:


> Agree pretty much with this, but the most important thing by far is basically work ethic.
> 
> There is almost no such thing as a true prodigy, if you want to be the best or one of the best, you basically devote your life to training. If you do that and have competant trainers and partners, you will succeed.
> 
> The one thing every champion or top contender has in common in MMA is they work like dogs. GSP is often talked about as having so much natural ability and athleticism, but he trains like a madman, he would succeed anywhere. Being in Jackson's camp gives him access to resources he might not get in other places, but those resources won't make a mediocre fighter great, only your work ethic can do that.


I agree about work ethic but with hat being said, if an independent fighter and a jackson fighter have great work ethic, the jackson fighter will have a higher chance of succeeding because he will have more tools at his disposal. (Better equipment, coaches, and sparring partners)


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## sk double i (Apr 13, 2007)

HitOrGetHit said:


> I agree about work ethic but with hat being said, if an independent fighter and a jackson fighter have great work ethic, the jackson fighter will have a higher chance of succeeding because he will have more tools at his disposal. (Better equipment, coaches, and sparring partners)


This is not necessarily true. Assuming they are fighting at the same level, and we are assuming they are getting top boxing, bjj, kickboxing, conditioning trainers, nutritionists, sparring partners, etc. Simply being in a big named camp doesnt necessarily equate to success. Better coaches/sparring partners, that's all opinion. Look at chuck liddell, how many champions has John Hackleman produced? 

What I'm tying to say is stating a fighter needs to go to a big name camp will not turn them their carreers around. 

What is the reason behind it? So and so needs better __________ coach or more sparring partners that they can find at _______ camp. I am just tired of hearing that someone needs to train with ATT/AKA/Greg Jackson to get better.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

sk double i said:


> This is not necessarily true. Assuming they are fighting at the same level, and we are assuming they are getting top boxing, bjj, kickboxing, conditioning trainers, nutritionists, sparring partners, etc. Simply being in a big named camp doesnt necessarily equate to success. Better coaches/sparring partners, that's all opinion. Look at chuck liddell, how many champions has John Hackleman produced?
> 
> What I'm tying to say is stating a fighter needs to go to a big name camp will not turn them their carreers around.
> 
> What is the reason behind it? So and so needs better __________ coach or more sparring partners that they can find at _______ camp. I am just tired of hearing that someone needs to train with ATT/AKA/Greg Jackson to get better.


I am not saying that a big camp will always produce a great fighter at all. I think that it is very possible to become great without having a big camp. I was simply stating that someone at a big camp will usually have better sparring partners due to the camp's prestige and better equipment due to the camps money.

I definitely agree that smaller camps can produce elite fighters though.


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