# Shinya Aoki Is The Number 1 LW In The World.



## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

While Penn is off eating twinkies and trying to fight bigger, better fighters, Aoki is beating really solid LW's and earning his spot at number 1. I mean, look at who he has beaten: JZ, Uno and Alvarez, and that was all this year. Penn has beaten Sherk and Stevenson, and while that's solid, he's moving up to WW. Shinya Aoki may have lost to Hansen (After Aoki went 15 with Caol in a tough bout while Hansen beat Gill in about 2 minutes), but he redeemed himself by making Eddie Alvarez tap. 










Discuss.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

third fight against hell boy . if he beats him than yea why not


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## AmRiT (Apr 23, 2007)

x Forget what I said


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## Sinister (Nov 19, 2007)

JZ will get his revenge Damone!


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

WAMMA Press Release said:


> "Dynamite!!" featured the crowning of the second-ever undisputed champion in World Alliance Mixed Martial Arts (WAMMA) history with Shinya Aoki defeating Eddie Alvarez via heel hook submission at 1:32 of round 1. In the process, Aoki became the first-ever WAMMA lightweight champion.
> 
> WAMMA would like to publicly congratulate Shinya Aoki on his historic victory and looks forward to presenting him with his championship belt at a ceremony to be scheduled at a later date.
> 
> ...


You are not falling into the WAMMA trap are you Damone?


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## e-thug (Jan 18, 2007)

The Legend said:


> You are not falling into the WAMMA trap are you Damone?


Please, its well known around these parts that Aoki is Damone's "main man".

I got Aoki at #2 right behind Penn...I find it hard to believe that Aoki could beat Penn at LW.

Its not exactly a stretch to put Aoki at #1 though.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

I'd like to think that Aoki could beat BJ, but it's a terrible matchup for him.

Aoki needs to get guys to the mat to win fights, but if Sherk couldn't get BJ down then I don't expect Aoki to, at least not topside.

Aoki could always just guard, but I don't think he'll submit BJ off of the bottom when BJ (a mundial champion in BJJ) is just looking to escape.

If BJ stays at welterweight, though, then Shinya is definitely the top guy.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

e-thug said:


> Please, its well known around these parts that Aoki is Damone's "main man".
> 
> I got Aoki at #2 right behind Penn...I find it hard to believe that Aoki could beat Penn at LW.
> 
> Its not exactly a stretch to put Aoki at #1 though.


Yeah I already knew that


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

I think the win over Alvarez puts Aoki at #1.

Record wise, and that is really all that matters, Aoki's is more impressive. Especially lately.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Aoki is one of my fave fighters, i would love to see him fight Kenny Florian, i think that is the match up of the century.

I would say Aoki is no2 or 3 in the rankings from the top of my head, i would have to analyze it more to say where he truly stands.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

I seem to recall Aoki being put to sleep this year. I dont think BJ has had a punch landed on him all year.

Aoki def moves up in my rankings. But he is not ahead of BJ, and I dont think he could beat Sherk.

I just cant justify putting a guy at #1 that got burried like he did to Hansen. Not to mention BJ is the worst possible matchup for him. Even he somehow gets BJ down, he isnt gonna tap him out.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

No. Gomi is.






Seriously I can't out Aoki above BJ until he redeems himself with another win after getting brutally KO'd and BJ has gotten spanked by GSP.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

I think a lot of guys in the UFC could beat Aoki. He has virtually no stand up and wrestling, which is fine for Japan, but in America you have to worry a lot more about wrestlers. Aoki would lose to Sherk, Frankie Edgar, Bj Penn, Ken Flo, Tyson Griffin, Gray Maynard. He obviously has the chance to beat any of them with a cool submission, but I think he'd lose most of those fights most of the time. I love watching him fight though.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

JZ is a really solid LW, who could compete with anyone in the UFC LW division. He lost to aoki. In fact, he spent most of the fight defending from Aoki's swankness.

Alvarez was a guy (Along with JZ) who was supposed to whomp Aoki and expose him for being a one trick pony. Eddie tapped with the quickness, and probably won't be walking right for a few weeks.

It's not really about all that "Who can beat who" shit, it's about rankings, and Aoki has beaten more solid LW's this year than BJ has, and BJ is moving up to WW in his next fight and who knows where he'll go next.

Also, you're fooling yourselves if you think most of the UFC LW fighters would run over Aoki. There's a reason why he has beaten so many top guys. His BJJ is the best in the sport, and his leg-locks are getting nastier. 

Aoki may have lost to Joachim, but look at the facts, Aoki went a hard 15 with a guy who is nearly impossible to submit while Joachim went about 2 with a one-dimensional striker. 










Aoki is number 1, even the ref knows it.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Sorry Damon the fact is he had a great year but the loss knocks him down a peg and a couple wins isnt putting him above Penn, BJ is the LW GSP/Fedor/Anderson in that if you want his #1 spot your gonna have to beat HIM for it.


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## Nikkolai (Jan 7, 2008)

I think the choice of words is a bit overdone. Aoki was not "brutally" knocked out.


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

Aoki is great, and I was a giant fan. BUT no, simply because I can outstrike him and I have only boxed/kickboxed for about a year. It's ludicris to think that just because you have great subs and good TD's your the best. Just look at Filho, same situation with better TD's and a much better chin, but he gets destroyed by wrestlers. 

When Aoki learns to strike, then I will agree with you 100%, but till then Sherk would murder him and BJ would probably make him cry.


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## JT42 (Dec 31, 2006)

I have to admit I was extremely impressed he tapped Alvarez so quickly as I knew he stood a good chance but I had no idea it would go like that. 

However, I still put have him at #2 behind BJ and if Penn goes on to defeat Florian then he will remain at #1 imo.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

GKY said:


> Aoki is great, and I was a giant fan. BUT no, simply because I can outstrike him and I have only boxed/kickboxed for about a year. It's ludicris to think that just because you have great subs and good TD's your the best. Just look at Filho, same situation with better TD's and a much better chin, but he gets destroyed by wrestlers.
> 
> When Aoki learns to strike, then I will agree with you 100%, but till then Sherk would murder him and BJ would probably make him cry.


Thats exactly what people said about JZ and Hansen.


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## jdun11 (Apr 23, 2006)

Aoki is alot better than I originally thought he was. I never thought he would beat JZ and I didnt think he would beat Alvarez. He can beat pretty much anyone in the world on any given night because his submission game is so unique. Even a world champion black belt can get caught in one of his crazy leg locks(Penn). But I just dont think it would happen. I know Damone you say it doesnt matter with the who would beat who stuff. But thats not how I rank fighters. If I think fighter A can beat fighter B, most of the time I will rank fighter A ahead of fighter B. Unless of course there are some weird circumstances. BUt with BJ showing such dominance at LW right now, I cant see putting a guy that recently lost ahead of him.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

IronMan said:


> I'd like to think that Aoki could beat BJ, but it's a terrible matchup for him.
> 
> Aoki needs to get guys to the mat to win fights, but if Sherk couldn't get BJ down then I don't expect Aoki to, at least not topside.
> 
> ...


Aoki would just buttscoot around the cage until he could lock in a heel hook and if that didn't work then he would just jump on Penn and attach himself to him and get the sub.

Penn is my favorite fighter but Aoki is a close second and I think Aoki has the BJJ to beat Penn. The only thing he has to worry about is the striking.

I also would rank Aoki above BJ now.


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## The Finisher (Mar 23, 2008)

BJ is the man at LW right now. Aoki is up there, but he is no BJ Penn.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

The Finisher said:


> BJ is the man at LW right now. Aoki is up there, but he is no BJ Penn.


You're right he's not. He's better then BJ especially at BJJ.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

MJB23 said:


> You're right he's not. He's better then BJ especially at BJJ.


Shinya Aoki is not better at Bjj than Bj. He has a flashy style that works well for him in MMA, but Aoki is nothing special in the grappling world. And sorry if your post was sarcastic!


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

MJB23 said:


> Aoki would just buttscoot around the cage until he could lock in a heel hook and if that didn't work then he would just jump on Penn and attach himself to him and get the sub.
> 
> Penn is my favorite fighter but Aoki is a close second and I think Aoki has the BJJ to beat Penn. The only thing he has to worry about is the striking.
> 
> I also would rank Aoki above BJ now.


All I'm saying is that Aoki has never beaten a Mundial champion, and he's never fought anyone with a submission game like BJ, or with submission defense like BJ.

He's also never fought anyone with the defensive wrestling and judo skill that BJ has.

BJ is the kind of fighter who can force Aoki to fight his way, and that's going to cause Shinya more problems then just an opponent with better striking (everybody has better striking).

The question is not who's the better BJJ fighter. I'm sure that Aoki's guard would cause BJ a lot of problems if BJ was trying to pass it, but all BJ needs to do is stall and get the fight to the feet.

It's not a matter of who the better fighter is (that's debatable), but a matter of the matchup, and the matchup looks bad for Shinya, in my opinion.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

IronMan said:


> All I'm saying is that Aoki has never beaten a Mundial champion, and he's never fought anyone with a submission game like BJ, or with submission defense like BJ.
> 
> He's also never fought anyone with the defensive wrestling and judo skill that BJ has.


You're right he's never beaten a Mundial champion but I don't think he's ever fought one either. 

I know he's never fought anyone with the submission skills that BJ has but honestly I think Aoki has the skills to give BJ one hell of a fight if it goes to the ground. Getting it to the ground is the problem like you said but I think Aoki would be able to pull guard and get BJ down.




> BJ is the kind of fighter who can force Aoki to fight his way, and that's going to cause Shinya more problems then just an opponent with better striking (everybody has better striking).


Yeah that could cause some problems for Aoki but I really think Aoki would be able to get BJ down eventually which would then play into Aoki's game.



> The question is not who's the better BJJ fighter. I'm sure that Aoki's guard would cause BJ a lot of problems if BJ was trying to pass it, but all BJ needs to do is stall and get the fight to the feet.


Aoki's guard would cause some serious trouble for Aoki. Penn has never fought anyone as flexible as Aoki (as far as I know). Aoki has a great rubber guard and I don't think BJ would be able to pass it.

BJ's best bet to win the fight would be to keep it standing because of Aoki's horrible striking but like I said I don't think the fight would stay standing the whole time. 



> It's not a matter of who the better fighter is (that's debatable), but a matter of the matchup, and the matchup looks bad for Shinya, in my opinion.


I could see where you would think it's a bad matchup and honestly the more I think about it the more I see that Aoki would have a tough time with Penn because of his lack of striking. 

I really hope we get to see the fight eventually.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

IMO here's what Bj vs Aoki would look like, but with strikes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DanWm-wqwwo

Shinya would get his back taken, and choked out.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Firstly, you stole my font. You should know better.



MJB23 said:


> You're right he's never beaten a Mundial champion but I don't think he's ever fought one either.


That's sorta my point.



> I know he's never fought anyone with the submission skills that BJ has but honestly I think Aoki has the skills to give BJ one hell of a fight if it goes to the ground. Getting it to the ground is the problem like you said but I think Aoki would be able to pull guard and get BJ down.


I think it'd be an awesome fight, and I'd love to see it.

I wouldn't be shocked if Aoki got the fight to the mat, I just don't think he could finish before the fight got stood up.



> Aoki's guard would cause some serious trouble for Aoki. Penn has never fought anyone as flexible as Aoki (as far as I know). Aoki has a great rubber guard and I don't think BJ would be able to pass it.


BJ isn't going to try and pass it. He's going to try and stand up and knock Shinya out.



> I really hope we get to see the fight eventually.


Yeah, me too. The UFC should make this happen.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

jdun11 said:


> I seem to recall Aoki being put to sleep this year. I dont think BJ has had a punch landed on him all year.
> 
> Aoki def moves up in my rankings. But he is not ahead of BJ, and I dont think he could beat Sherk.
> 
> I just cant justify putting a guy at #1 that got burried like he did to Hansen. Not to mention BJ is the worst possible matchup for him. Even he somehow gets BJ down, he isnt gonna tap him out.


This.

BJ and Sherk would beat the living crap out of him.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

wukkadb said:


> Shinya Aoki is not better at Bjj than Bj. He has a flashy style that works well for him in MMA, but Aoki is nothing special in the grappling world. And sorry if your post was sarcastic!


Aoki has better overall MMA BJJ than Penn. Penn has better top positioning, but he isn't that threatening off his back, while Aoki's guard is dangerous, way more dangerous than any other fighter. He is also dangerous on top, though I'd give Penn the advantage in that field, since his top positioning is on another level. But still, Aoki has better MMA BJJ in that he's great on top, bottom, he'll attach himself to you, he'll go for subs while clinched with his opponent, everything.

Aoki's flashy, but look at the grapplers he shut down. Hansen, JZ, Hironaka and Kikuchi are all great grapplers, and they couldn't do anything to Shinya (Well, Hansen in the first fight).


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

jdun11 said:


> I seem to recall Aoki being put to sleep this year. I dont think BJ has had a punch landed on him all year.
> 
> Aoki def moves up in my rankings. But he is not ahead of BJ, and I dont think he could beat Sherk.
> 
> I just cant justify putting a guy at #1 that got burried like he did to Hansen. Not to mention BJ is the worst possible matchup for him. Even he somehow gets BJ down, he isnt gonna tap him out.


I seem to recall BJ getting downright whomped at WW the last time he was there and now he's getting a title shot?



wukkadb said:


> I think a lot of guys in the UFC could beat Aoki. He has virtually no stand up and wrestling, which is fine for Japan, but in America you have to worry a lot more about wrestlers. Aoki would lose to Sherk, Frankie Edgar, Bj Penn, Ken Flo, Tyson Griffin, Gray Maynard. He obviously has the chance to beat any of them with a cool submission, but I think he'd lose most of those fights most of the time. I love watching him fight though.





GKY said:


> Aoki is great, and I was a giant fan. BUT no, simply because I can outstrike him and I have only boxed/kickboxed for about a year. It's ludicris to think that just because you have great subs and good TD's your the best. Just look at Filho, same situation with better TD's and a much better chin, but he gets destroyed by wrestlers.
> 
> When Aoki learns to strike, then I will agree with you 100%, but till then Sherk would murder him and BJ would probably make him cry.


Like TheNeg said, alot of people said the superior strikers and wrestlers like Eddie/Hansen/JZ would downright crush him, and they didn't, in fact they got tooled (Except for Hansen II, but Damone explains that)



jdun11 said:


> Aoki is alot better than I originally thought he was. I never thought he would beat JZ and I didnt think he would beat Alvarez. He can beat pretty much anyone in the world on any given night because his submission game is so unique. Even a world champion black belt can get caught in one of his crazy leg locks(Penn). But I just dont think it would happen. I know Damone you say it doesnt matter with the who would beat who stuff. But thats not how I rank fighters. If I think fighter A can beat fighter B, most of the time I will rank fighter A ahead of fighter B. Unless of course there are some weird circumstances. BUt with BJ showing such dominance at LW right now, I cant see putting a guy that recently lost ahead of him.


That's a pretty hollow way of ranking fighters, considering they haven't fought yet, so you really don't KNOW if Fighter A could actually beat Fighter B, so you're pretty much just guessing and choosing your favourite fighter.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Firstly, you stole my font. You should know better.


Lol sorry I think when I did the multiquoting it did that.



> I think it'd be an awesome fight, and I'd love to see it.


Me too it's one of my top dream fights.



> I wouldn't be shocked if Aoki got the fight to the mat, I just don't think he could finish before the fight got stood up.


I think you're either underestimating Aoki's BJJ or overestimating BJ's. Aoki is very dangerous from his back. With how flexible he is he can easily sink in Gogo's and triangles. I think with his use of the rubber guard he would be able to sub BJ before it got stood up. 



> BJ isn't going to try and pass it. He's going to try and stand up and knock Shinya out.


I know that but I don't think BJ would be able to get up with Aoki on the bottom. Aoki is just too good from the bottom.



> Yeah, me too. The UFC should make this happen.


They definitely should but we both know they won't.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

> Like TheNeg said, alot of people said the superior strikers and wrestlers like Eddie/Hansen/JZ would downright crush him, and they didn't, in fact they got tooled (Except for Hansen II, but Damone explains that)


Well I never said Alvarez was going to beat Aoki, and the JZ-Aoki fights were weird. The first one JZ was definitely winning, and the 2nd one he had the dumbest game plan ever. I still think guys like Sherk, Edgar, Griffin would beat Aoki.



> I think you're either underestimating Aoki's BJJ or overestimating BJ's. Aoki is very dangerous from his back. With how flexible he is he can easily sink in Gogo's and triangles. I think with his use of the rubber guard he would be able to sub BJ before it got stood up.


You are overrating Aoki's Bjj and underestimating Bj's. Bj on top > Aoki on bottom, without a doubt.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

plazzman said:


> I seem to recall BJ getting downright whomped at WW the last time he was there and now he's getting a title shot?


BJ got downright whomped? He was easily winning that fight against Hughes until he hurt his ribs.

Anyways I was just thinking does Aoki even want to come to the UFC? Because I know a few fighters have asked for the UFC to try and sign but he hasn't yet. Maybe he feels he is at a disadvantage if he isn't wearing pants:dunno:


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

wukkadb said:


> You are overrating Aoki's Bjj and underestimating Bj's. Bj on top > Aoki on bottom, without a doubt.


I really don't think so. BJ is great on top no doubt but Aoki is also great on the bottom. As much as I think Aoki would be able to submit him it would most likely end up being a stalemate and getting stood up.


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## SlaveTrade (Apr 27, 2007)

People are being delusional if they think most of the wrestlers in the UFC LW division can defeat Shinya Aoki.

Alvarez and JZ are two very good wrestlers and they still lost to Shinya Aoki.

BJ Penn vs Shinya Aoki would be a different story. While I think BJ Penn would be a tough match up for Shinya Aoki, I think eventually, Shinya will attach himself to BJ Penn and the fight will hit the ground. 

I won't lie, I like Aoki more than Penn, but even I know how deadly BJ Penn is on top. I still don't think Penn would be able to pass Aoki's guard and eventually, I can see Aoki winning a decision or even winning by sub from the bottom. 

In this fight, I don't think BJ Penn would finish Aoki standing. Seriously, when was the last time Aoki was finished standing?

While Penn's stand up is considerably better than Aoki's, it won't play a factor in this fight. 

Aoki for President.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

The Legend said:


> BJ got downright whomped? He was easily winning that fight against Hughes until he hurt his ribs.
> 
> Anyways I was just thinking does Aoki even want to come to the UFC? Because I know a few fighters have asked for the UFC to try and sign but he hasn't yet. Maybe he feels he is at a disadvantage if he isn't wearing pants:dunno:


Aoki has said before that the best fighters fight in the US and that he wants to fight there.


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## Arlovski_Fan (Apr 25, 2007)

SlaveTrade said:


> People are being delusional if they think most of the wrestlers in the UFC LW division can defeat Shinya Aoki.
> 
> Alvarez and JZ are two very good wrestlers and they still lost to Shinya Aoki.
> 
> ...


QFT. If Penn beat more than 2 legit LW's(Stevenson/Sherk) and 1 FW(Pulver) in the last year then I would have issues putting Aoki at 1 since he lost to Hansen. But Aoki has beaten Alvarez and JZ, two top 5ish LW's as well as a solid Caol Uno and put 2 more wins under his belt on top of that.


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## Judoka (Feb 23, 2007)

I would love to see Penn Vs Aoki. Both awesome fighters.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

MJB23 said:


> I think you're either underestimating Aoki's BJJ or overestimating BJ's. Aoki is very dangerous from his back. With how flexible he is he can easily sink in Gogo's and triangles. I think with his use of the rubber guard he would be able to sub BJ before it got stood up.


Aoki's submission skills are all well and good against guys who aren't used to seeing gogoplatas in the gym. BJ is not one of those guys.

Trust me, Aoki's submission skills are great, but it's not easy to submit a guy who doesn't make basic mistakes like standing straight up (Alvarez) or putting his hands on teh floor (Hansen, in their first fight).

Aoki's game is fantastic. It works on a lot of guys. BJ Penn is not one of those guys.

Who understands the rubber guard better than a guy who uses it?

It's going to be hard to submit BJ with his own gameplan. I'm not saying that Aoki's skills and flexibility aren't impressive, but it's hard to finish a guy like that.



> I know that but I don't think BJ would be able to get up with Aoki on the bottom. Aoki is just too good from the bottom.


That's fine. You're entitled to that opinion, but, as we've already established, we've never seen Aoki compete against that level of grapplers in MMA.

I've seen Aoki fight at ADCC, and I think he's going to have trouble with a Mundial champion. Not that BJ is Marcelo or Roger Gracie, but you get the point.



> They definitely should but we both know they won't.


Yeah, but I can dream.


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## Wise (Oct 8, 2006)

I love me some Aoki but I think BJ would beat the crap out of him. BJ can keep this fight on the feet at will and theirs no way Aoki could tie up BJ like he did JZ. 

I do agree though that Shinya's body of work has looked much better lately. 

Did anyone else like how Shinya reacted after the Alvarez fight as well? It wasnt the usual ball your eyes out, just happy that he pulled out a win. He looked like someone had lit a fire under his ass. 

Maybe losing to Hansen in that fashion was a good thing.


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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

i Rank Aoki over BJ Penn at LW at the moment

Penn is recently 3-0 with wins over Pulver, Joe Daddy and Sherk.

Aoki is 6-1 in that time frame, including wins over Alvarez, JZ and Uno.

Maybe Penn is a better MMA artist but his recent record doesn't match Aoki's


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

BJ would obviously beat Aoki. He can't strike with BJ. He's not going to be able to butt scoot BJ into a ground game (that BJ would probably win anyway). When's the last time BJ was easily taken down. I am the only one that remembers that BJ's loss to GSP was a close split decision.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

Although I believe BJ would beat Aoki, I have to rank Aoki higher in the rankings simply because he has fought and beaten better competition.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Aoki has no striking. At all. B.J. takes it.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Rated said:


> Although I believe BJ would beat Aoki, I have to rank Aoki higher in the rankings simply because he has fought and beaten better competition.


Rated is in the right here.

I mean, Penn's a great fighter, and no doubt has problems for Aoki, but it's not about who can beat who, it's about accomplishments, and Aoki has beaten more solid fighters this year than Penn. I mean, JZ, Uno, Nagata, Moore and Alvarez. I mean, Nagata and Moore aren't great or anything, but Uno, JZ and Alvarez are all top 10 LW's, with JZ and Alvarez being top 5.


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

Uno's a top ten LW:confused02:


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

He did choke out top 10'er Ishida, so yes, he is/was a top 10 fighter when he fought Aoki.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

Damone said:


> Rated is in the right here.
> 
> I mean, Penn's a great fighter, and no doubt has problems for Aoki, but it's not about who can beat who, it's about accomplishments, and Aoki has beaten more solid fighters this year than Penn. I mean, JZ, Uno, Nagata, Moore and Alvarez. I mean, Nagata and Moore aren't great or anything, but Uno, JZ and Alvarez are all top 10 LW's, with JZ and Alvarez being top 5.


I agree. Yeah, perceived strengths and weaknesses do come into play when determining rankings, but they don't trump the W-L record. Aoki has beaten far better competition lately. This alone puts him at number 1 for me.

It isn't like he beat the #1 guy and is jumping into his chair, he beat several top notch guys.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Rated said:


> Although I believe BJ would beat Aoki, I have to rank Aoki higher in the rankings simply because he has fought and beaten better competition.


This is actually a really important point.

BJ has only had three recent fights at 155 pounds, and those wins are over a tarnished Sean Sherk (as the result of a steroid controversy), Joe Stevenson and a Jens Pulver preparing to drop to 145.

It makes Aoki's wins over a very tough Alvarez and JZ look a little more solid.


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## abs (Jan 1, 2009)

Aoki is not the best LW out there, guys like BJ and sherk would destroy him. He's great at what he does, but he's far from complete, and in the ufc you have alot of strong wrestlers with good sub defence, so I see him lose to few of them


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

abs said:


> Aoki is not the best LW out there, guys like BJ and sherk would destroy him. He's great at what he does, but he's far from complete, and in the ufc you have alot of strong wrestlers with good sub defence, so I see him lose to few of them


You seriously don't understand how ranking systems work. They aren't based upon who is the most complete fighter, or even who you think would beat who. They are both completely subjective and therefore worthless.

All that matter, for the most part, when determining fighter rankings is the quality of wins at that weight division and the particulars of the fights, i.e. the fact that Aoki subbed Alvarez very quickly is more impressive than a decision.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

abs said:


> Aoki is not the best LW out there, guys like BJ and sherk would destroy him. He's great at what he does, but he's far from complete, and in the ufc you have alot of strong wrestlers with good sub defence, so I see him lose to few of them


Strong wrestlers with good sub defense like Alvarez and JZ? Yeah, worked for them, didn't it?


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

Damone said:


> Strong wrestlers with good sub defense like Alvarez and JZ? Yeah, worked for them, didn't it?


Especially JZ is amonster on the ground and Aoki just tooled him from HIS GODDAMN OPEN GUARD!!!

Aoki's rubber guard seriously makes me come a little in my pants every single time!


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Aoki IMO is the #1 *ranked* LW in the world.

BJ would probably beat him if they fought but you can't do rankings like that.

Aoki has earned the number 1 spot by beating two guys who have dominated the LW division.

However I think JZ is going to dominant Dream/K-1 in 09 and that he will beat Aoki in their rematch.

JZ is going to be the #1 LW by the end of 09 IMO.

And then in 2010 after Dida has finally finished improving his ground game it will be his turn(This is the nuthugging part of my post all other parts are legit)


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

I actually thought JZ was going to beat Aoki. Hell, he beating him during their first fight.

*Edit:* Man, the douchery going on over Sher is lame. There are too many BJ nuthuggers over there; some guys are bringing up BJ's win over Gomi and how he is undefeated whereas Aoki lost to Hansen as a reason to justify that BJ is #1. Just sad.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

who the **** did bj beat in lw? joe dady? sherk? pulver ? lol 
aoki on the other hand ... imo bj is not # one lw . i am not saying aoki is though


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

Aoki's notable wins are JZ (very overrated), Hansen (1-1 with him), and Alvarez. Sorry, not impressed. 

BJ beating Sherk and Stevenson, especially in the fashion that he did, are way way more impressive than Aoki's wins.

And yes, good wrestlers will beat Aoki, if they aren't retarded enough to go to the ground with him. Alvarez made a retarded mistake and Mr. Overrated also made a retarded mistake.

Aoki's striking is sub-par, Aoki's wrestling is sub-par. The only thing he has is his BJJ.


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## dontazo (Feb 29, 2008)

aoki can always pull guard u know


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## joppp (Apr 21, 2007)

+Shogun+ said:


> Aoki's notable wins are JZ (very overrated), Hansen (1-1 with him), and Alvarez. Sorry, not impressed.
> 
> BJ beating Sherk and Stevenson, especially in the fashion that he did, are way way more impressive than Aoki's wins.
> 
> ...


Okay, Stevenson has not looked impressive against Tibau OR Florian and Sean "Shrek" Sherk is the only ranked LW he has fought so far. If your oppinion is BJ would beat Aoki that's fine, but BJ should NOT be ranked above Aoki!


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## XitUp (Jan 11, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Aoki IMO is the #1 *ranked* LW in the world.
> 
> BJ would probably beat him if they fought but you can't do rankings like that.


+1

If BJ loses to GSP I can see him going to fight in Japan after his contract with Zufa is up. I would love to see him fight DREAM's top lighweights and welterweights, starting with Aoki.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Yea can we stop pretending Stevenson is good? He got destroyed by Florian, and Tibau was controlling the fight before Tibau did something amazingly stupid.
Caol Uno is a better win at this point then Stevenson.


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

+Shogun+ said:


> Aoki's notable wins are JZ (very overrated), Hansen (1-1 with him), and Alvarez. Sorry, not impressed.
> 
> BJ beating Sherk and Stevenson, especially in the fashion that he did, are way way more impressive than Aoki's wins.
> 
> ...


Retarded mistake how? Having Aoki grab him?

Also, you contradict yourself. Penn beating Sherk in the fashion he did impressed you but you write off Aoki beating JZ because of his "retarded mistake".

Your opinion sucks.


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

+Shogun+ said:


> Aoki's notable wins are JZ (very overrated), Hansen (1-1 with him), and Alvarez. Sorry, not impressed.
> 
> BJ beating Sherk and Stevenson, especially in the fashion that he did, are way way more impressive than Aoki's wins.
> 
> ...


This is an awful, awful post. You call JZ overrated without giving a reason why except your own subjective opinion, you point out how Hansen is 1-1 with him and leave out the particulars of the loss, and then mention Alvarez as if he were nothing.

Pulver has been a joke ever since his return, Joe Daddy has shown himself to be nothing more than a gatekeeper, and Sherk, well Sherk is a good win. But that's really all he has at LW.

Aoki's striking is subpar, and so is his wrestling, but his BJJ game is so good that it doesn't seem to matter does it. He has been fighting very talented fighters, some of them great wrestlers, and winning.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

JZ's only notable win is Shaolin, and yet some people say he's the top LW or second or third to Shinya (or BJ)... yeah, ok. Stevenson has more wins over better competition than JZ does.

That's why JZ is overrated.

If you can honestly say that you're more impressed with Shinya's most recent wins over JZ (again, overrated)and Alvarez than BJ's wins over Sherk and Stevenson, then there is something wrong with you.

BTW, leave your names, cowards.

@The Negation: I'm not impressed with JZ, and Aoki didn't dominate him like BJ did with Sherk. I don't consider JZ a top 10 LW like I do Sherk.

@BBJD: So? Stevenson got destroyed by arguably two of the best LWs, and he all of a sudden sucks. He may be a gatekeeper, but he's a good one.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

JZ beat Shaolin, Uno, Dida, and he submitted Rani Yahya

Stevenson also was getting destroyed by Tibau.

Joe Stevenson isn't a very good win considering I wouldn't put him in my top 20 LW's.

He beat Yves Edwards, Mishima, and Pellegrino Not anything special Stevenson is crazy overrated.


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## jake_schofield (Oct 26, 2007)

i really like aoki hes a really exciting fighter and makes subs look good but im not sure if hes n0.1


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## The Legend (Jun 13, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> JZ beat Shaolin, Uno, Dida, and he submitted Rani Yahya
> 
> Stevenson also was getting destroyed by Tibau.
> 
> ...


Dida is a better win then Stevenson?


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> JZ beat Shaolin, Uno, Dida, and he submitted Rani Yahya
> 
> Stevenson also was getting destroyed by Tibau.
> 
> ...


Pelligrino, Edwards and Mishima are better wins than Uno, Dida and Yahya imo. I don't even have Dida ranked, Uno is over the hill and Yahya hasn't proven anything to me. I don't think Stevenson is top 10, but he is top 20 imo.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

No not even I will say Dida is a better win then Stevenson that is insane.

Pellegrino has lost a lot, Edwards keeps losing, Mishima has had a bad period as well.

None of those are real good wins.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> No not even I will say Dida is a better win then Stevenson that is insane.
> 
> Pellegrino has lost a lot, Edwards keeps losing, Mishima has had a bad period as well.
> 
> None of those are real good wins.


None of them are real good wins, but still better wins than JZs wins, outside of Shaolin. He beats one good fighter, that isn't even top 10 himself, and now he's top 10 material? Top 5 to most of you.

Doesn't make sense to me.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

First off he didn't beat Shaolin he murdered him.

Uno is a excellent win I'm not sure how people don't realize that.

Rani Yahya win wouldn't matter if he knocked him out but he submitted a world class black belt quickly.

And Andre Dida is a very talented fighter he has given everyone he's faced a tough fight and knocked out a number of them


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

I wouldn't say Uno's over the hill. He showed in the Ishida fight that he is still a really good fighter.

Brutally whomping Shaolin and beating Dida on the same night's impressive, not to mention that JZ has wins over guys like Monma, Bartimus and Uno. Dude only lost once to Hansen and then went on s sick streak, destroying everyone in his path. He was the favorite to win the whole DREAM LW GP (By me and many). Aoki beat him. That's a really solid win.

I mean hell, people were ranking BJ in the top 10 just after beating Jens Pulver, and many ranked him number 1 for beating Joe Stevenson. That's overrated, not JZ.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

Damone said:


> I wouldn't say Uno's over the hill. He showed in the Ishida fight that he is still a really good fighter.
> 
> Brutally whomping Shaolin and beating Dida on the same night's impressive, not to mention that JZ has wins over guys like Monma, Bartimus and Uno. Dude only lost once to Hansen and then went on s sick streak, destroying everyone in his path. He was the favorite to win the whole DREAM LW GP (By me and many). Aoki beat him. That's a really solid win.
> 
> I mean hell, people were ranking BJ in the top 10 just after beating Jens Pulver, and many ranked him number 1 for beating Joe Stevenson. That's overrated, not JZ.


Again, JZ's only notable win is Shaolin. You're doing exactly what you didn't want to see and going by "Well, this guy looks really really good, and he should beat fighter X, Y, Z". Guess what. JZ isn't a top ten LW.

Once more, Shinya's recent notable victories are over Alvarez and JZ. BJ's are Sherk and Stevenson. I can't see how Shinya's are more impressive, both in opponent quality and in the way of which they were beaten.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Alvarez beat Kawajiri, Hansen, and Dida which are 3 good wins.

JZ has beaten a ton of talented guys and he's beaten a number of them at their games.

Shaolin, and Uno are both very good wins. Why do you keep ignoring the fact he beat Uno who is a legit fighter.

Stevenson hasn't beaten anyone who matters so how is he a better win then JZ?


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Man +Shogun+ how can you keep ignoring such good points as they are making?

To think that Stevenson is a better win then JZ, Uno, or Hansen really shows you have little knowledge of MMA. Either that or you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

MJB23 said:


> Man +Shogun+ how can you keep ignoring such good points as they are making?
> 
> To think that Stevenson is a better win then JZ, Uno, or Hansen really shows you have little knowledge of MMA. Either that or you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.


I'm not ignoring anything, and everything I said is truth. Stevenson has more wins over more solid compition than JZ. Uno is washed up, so what, he beat Ishida. Anything can happen in MMA, Uno pulled off the upset. He is not a solid LW anymore. Hansen is a solid win, but I was comparing their most recent victories.

Again, and I quote myself, because it's getting old. "Shinya's recent notable victories are over Alvarez and JZ. BJ's are Sherk and Stevenson. I can't see how Shinya's are more impressive, both in opponent quality and in the way of which they were beaten."

Stevenson, although he is not a top 10 fighter, IS a solid LW and ranks right around where JZ does. You can think JZ is a better fighter than Stevenson, and I'd even agree with you, but we aren't going by that, remember? JZ has ONE solid win over Shoalin, that is IT. You can't pop a guy into the top 10 because he beat one good fighter, that isn't even in the top 10 himself.

I think I addressed all arguments too, so I'm not sure what you were suggesting that I was ignoring.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

It's not worth debating with you. JZ is much much better then you are giving him credit for and he is 100X better then Stevenson. You are discrediting Aoki's opponents based solely on your opinion and not fact.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

How was Shaolin not top 10 when JZ beat him.

The only reason Shaolin isn't top 10 right now is because he has been out of action since JZ beat him.

Uno isn't washed up the guy puts up good efforts against everyone and is still very skilled. IMO he should be higher ranked then Joe Stevenson right now who doesn't really have any good wins.

Shinya beat JZ, Alvarez, and Uno. Bj beat Joe and Sean.

Shinya is clearly ahead.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

MJB23 said:


> It's not worth debating with you. JZ is much much better then you are giving him credit for and he is 100X better then Stevenson. You are discrediting Aoki's opponents based solely on your opinion and not fact.


There is no fact to be had here, it is ALL opinion.

And I disagree with you.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

dontazo said:


> aoki can always pull guard u know


Yeah that'll work against BJ :confused02:


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Yeah that'll work against BJ :confused02:


Yup it would.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

I hope you're joking. First of all he wouldn't be able to pull guard on BJ. Secondly he couldn't submit him if he did. Thirdly he be knocked out by then.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Firstly you are wrong. Secondly you are wrong. Thirdly i've already posted extensively on this so look them up if you want an in depth answer.


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

MJB23 said:


> Firstly you are wrong. Secondly you are wrong. Thirdly i've already posted extensively on this so look them up if you want an in depth answer.


Nobody has ever pulled guard on Penn. If Machida couldn't submit Penn, what makes you think that Aoki could? There is no LW in the world that could submit Penn.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Nobody has ever pulled guard on Penn. If Machida couldn't submit Penn, what makes you think that Aoki could? There is no LW in the world that could submit Penn.


Yeah and no one ever knocked Nog out till last saturday either. 

Machida has nowhere near the level of BJJ that Aoki has. Have you ever seen an Aoki fight? His BJJ is exceptional. How many fighters can submit someone with a gogo from mount?


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## Davisty69 (May 24, 2007)

rockybalboa25 said:


> Nobody has ever pulled guard on Penn. If Machida couldn't submit Penn, what makes you think that Aoki could? There is no LW in the world that could submit Penn.


Because Aoki is far better on the ground than Machida is... Far batter.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

Machida was also slow and pudgy in the Penn fight. Penn put on a gutsy performance, though. He could've won that fight had he, you know, not gassed.

Shinya Aoki is number 1 and Satoru Kitaoka is in the top 10. It's good to be an MMA fan.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

MJB23 said:


> How many fighters can submit someone with a gogo from mount?


I can!



Davisty69 said:


> Because Aoki is far better on the ground than Machida is... Far batter.


Yeah, that's actually true. Machida would get killed at ADCC. I mean, Aoki did too, but Machida would get killed by someone who's not-Marcelo.



rockybalboa25 said:


> Nobody has ever pulled guard on Penn. If Machida couldn't submit Penn, what makes you think that Aoki could? There is no LW in the world that could submit Penn.


Ummm... there are a few guys that could tap BJ, but most of them are pure submission grapplers.

In a submission grappling mach, Aoki could probably catch BJ, but MMA is totally different.



Damone said:


> Machida was also slow and pudgy in the Penn fight. Penn put on a gutsy performance, though. He could've won that fight had he, you know, not gassed.
> 
> Shinya Aoki is number 1 and Satoru Kitaoka is in the top 10. It's good to be an MMA fan.


You know who else was slow and pudgy in that Penn fight? B.J. Hopefully the gas tank is better. If it is, B.J. Penn vs. Anderson Silva!


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## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

Aoki is good and is number 2, or 3, but the problem with those slots is that they are still far behind Penn at number 1. BJ is just that damn good. He used to demolish people while barely training. Now that he takes his career seriously, hes the best at LW.


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## Aaronyman (Mar 1, 2007)

if he hadn't lost to hansen earlier this year, i'd agree...but otherwise, he's just somewhere in the top 5....


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## TheNegation (Jun 11, 2007)

Yup, Arnold presses and running on the beach with Urijah Faber make you invincible.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Aarony but the thing about a GP is that it's kinda hard to be too hard on him since he fought a tough decision against Uno and Hansen fought a bum in the reserve fight.


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## +Shogun+ (Aug 3, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> Aarony but the thing about a GP is that it's kinda hard to be too hard on him since he fought a tough decision against Uno and Hansen fought a bum in the reserve fight.


Didn't he have like, an hour of rest?


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I understand and the loss still counts however it has to be taken into account since Hansen got a real horrible opponent in the reserve match and Aoki really had to work.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

Ahh gotta love ya Damone; repeating something often enough that people start believeing it. 

BJ is still no.1 until he loses. Kenny could be the guy to do it too; since Aoki will never come to the UFC.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Flak BJ has two wins good wins at LW and only one great one.

How does that make him the clear number 1?


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

Because it was against a tough guy and he made it look easy, and the other one was against the former champ where he again made it look easy. Before that he took one of the best p4p guys to a split decision, and was whooping a prime Hatt Hughes until he got hurt and gassed. Oh yeah, he did that against guys outside his natural weight class, and not just any welterweights either....arguably two of the biggest guys at 170 around at the time. 

The level of talent BJ has is off the charts, and now that he appears to be in shape, as Kenny said, he is the master. If you want to be #1, you need to kill that master. Plus, BJ is a terrible matchup for Aoki, he neutralises Aoki's best weapon, and is better everywhere else. 

I'm not the kind of guy that favors any particular fighter....so this certainly isn't a fanboi's perspective.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Aoki controlled JZ totally who is a great fighter also.

And counting fights at WW to LW rankings makes no sense since we have all seen that talent always doesn't carry over weight class to weight class.

And does beating Jens Pulver mean anything to you? he was coming off a loss to Joe Lauzon and since that fight has gone 1-2 at FW.

I have BJ #2 however he hasn't done much at LW.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

Jens is irrelevent. But BJ ran through him like the #1 LW would. Plus, i think Sherk > JZ. As far as talent not transferring thats true, which makes BJ's performance at 170 even more impressive. 

Aoki is great, don't get me wrong....clear #2. I just don't think he beats BJ....how would he do it? Don't say submission because you don't know that, and BJ has some serious BJJ credentials, and he's adapted it very well to MMA. If anything, they neutralise each other there....only BJ is good in other positions too, while Aoki is not. BJ wins.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

I think BJ would beat Aoki easily actually but I don't understand how people rank that way.

I mean I think Shogun would beat Rashad but I can't make a logically argument he's number 1 because of that.

People will pick Thiago over GSP but ranking wise anyone who doesn't have GSP number 1 is stupid.


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## Rated (Nov 25, 2006)

bbjd7 said:


> I think BJ would beat Aoki easily actually but I don't understand how people rank that way.
> 
> I mean I think Shogun would beat Rashad but I can't make a logically argument he's number 1 because of that.
> 
> People will pick Thiago over GSP but ranking wise anyone who doesn't have GSP number 1 is stupid.


It's called nuthuggers, and BJ has a lot of them.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

That's bullshit Rated. Some of us honestly and objectively think he's the best.

Fair point bbjd7, but i have Rich ranked at LHW, even though he hasn't done a whole lot there. With BJ and Aoki, i think we have to look at skillsets etc, because we don't have a whole lot of crossover competition. When i do that, I'm forced to see BJ as the probable winner, so he gets my #1 spot.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

MJB23 said:


> Yeah and no one ever knocked Nog out till last saturday either.


That doesn't make the possiblity of BJ being submitted any more likely.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Yea I understand but personally I think Akiyama would handle Franklin, Marquardt and any other MW besides Anderson so should I rank him #2.

I personally think you have to look at the fights guys have had and compare them in the way you see fit but I think basing rankings on our opinions of how a fight would go between the two doesn't work.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Wawaweewa said:


> That doesn't make the possiblity of BJ being submitted any more likely.


I know but it shows that you can't always rely on someone never having something happen to them in the past to predict the future.

The fact that no one has ever pulled guard on him before doesn't mean that someone can't eventually do it.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

But thats not the end all of my ranking. He beat two legitimately top 10 ranked opponents at the time, and looked utterly great doing it.

Aoki is great too, but the fact that Aoki called BJ out says to me that even he thinks BJ is #1, and he wants a crack at the title to prove he's better.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

To be fair though a lot of guys call other guys the top guy in their division I mean Anderson vs Henderson I believe Anderson called Hendo #1.

BJ has a case for number 1 but I don't feel it's strong enough at this point since Aoki beat JZ, Uno, and Alvarez


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

bbjd7 said:


> To be fair though a lot of guys call other guys the top guy in their division I mean Anderson vs Henderson I believe Anderson called Hendo #1.
> 
> BJ has a case for number 1 but I don't feel it's strong enough at this point since Aoki beat JZ, Uno, and Alvarez


But he had a defeat to his name in between those fights and BJ has won 3 straight against just as good if not better competition.


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## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

bbjd7 said:


> To be fair though a lot of guys call other guys the top guy in their division I mean Anderson vs Henderson I believe Anderson called Hendo #1.
> 
> BJ has a case for number 1 but I don't feel it's strong enough at this point since Aoki beat JZ, Uno, and Alvarez


Depends where you rank JZ, Uno, and Alvarez. Alvarez is a great win, Uno at this point in his career isn't, and i don't think JZ is as good as some people to be honest.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

People are really underestimating Uno lately. He has looked good in his last few fights. He is still a good fighter and Aoki's win over him shouldn't be discredited.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

MJB23 said:


> People are really underestimating Uno lately. He has looked good in his last few fights. He is still a good fighter and Aoki's win over him shouldn't be discredited.


fair enough, but a lot people dont give much credit to BJ's wins over Joe daddy and even Pulver who i think is just as good as Uno at LW.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Uno had just beaten Ishida. Uno still good his only beating lately was when Dida destroyed his face.

Personally I think Stevenson is amazingly average which is one of the reasons I don't have BJ at #1 so I can understand you putting BJ at number 1 if you don't buy into JZ however I disagree.



DJ Syko said:


> fair enough, but a lot people dont give much credit to BJ's wins over Joe daddy and *even Pulver who i think is just as good as Uno at LW.*


No offense man this is just stupid Pulver at LW has looked like a scrub in fact he's looked bad at FW. Uno just beat Ishida.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

bbjd7 said:


> Uno had just beaten Ishida. Uno still good his only beating lately was when Dida destroyed his face.
> 
> Personally I think Stevenson is amazingly average which is one of the reasons I don't have BJ at #1 so I can understand you putting BJ at number 1 if you don't buy into JZ however I disagree.
> 
> ...


I agree he is pretty garbage now, but at the time he was still seen as around the same level as uno.


----------



## Flak (Jul 1, 2007)

There's still the matter of Sherk though.

He just beat Griffin, Franca, and Florian....and BJ made him look average.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Pulver was 0-3 in his last 3 legit fights at LW going into his fight with BJ he wasn't on the same level of Uno.

I agree but Aoki beat Alvarez who had beaten Kawjiri, Hansen and Dida and unlike Sherk he finished all of them


----------



## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

bbjd7 said:


> Pulver was 0-3 in his last 3 legit fights at LW going into his fight with BJ he wasn't on the same level of Uno.
> 
> I agree but Aoki beat Alvarez who had beaten Kawjiri, Hansen and Dida and unlike Sherk he finished all of them


Uno was 1-3 at the same time against legit opponents, and jens fought tougher competion with Gomi and Sakurai. Plus i bet if asked a 100 people who you would rank higher at that time i bet the majority would of went with Jens.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

MJB23 said:


> I know but it shows that you can't always rely on someone never having something happen to them in the past to predict the future.
> 
> The fact that no one has ever pulled guard on him before doesn't mean that someone can't eventually do it.


Everyone knows that it _can_ happen, but that doesn't give you a very solid basis to predict a submission by Aoki.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

DJ Syko said:


> Uno was 1-3 at the same time against legit opponents, and jens fought tougher competion with Gomi and Sakurai. Plus i bet if asked a 100 people who you would rank higher at that time i bet the majority would of went with Jens.


From 04 to 07 which is the time Pulver went 0-3 against good fighters Caol lost to Hansen, lost to Kid, beat Clementi, beat Ivan, and lost to JZ that's 2-3.

He also lost to Hansen by KO in a late 3rd round KO in a close fight, lost to Kid by a cut, and lost to JZ by decision.

Jens got KO'd in all three fights and while Pulver vs Gomi was a good fight it was in 04.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

bbjd7 said:


> From 04 to 07 which is the time Pulver went 0-3 against good fighters Caol lost to Hansen, lost to Kid, beat Clementi, beat Ivan, and lost to JZ that's 2-3.
> 
> He also lost to Hansen by KO in a late 3rd round KO in a close fight, lost to Kid by a cut, and lost to JZ by decision.
> 
> Jens got KO'd in all three fights and while Pulver vs Gomi was a good fight it was in 04.


ok i give in lol, Uno was better, but i wouldnt say by a lot in terms of where people ranked them.


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## bbjd7 (Apr 9, 2007)

Well that has a lot to do with the fact Pulver has gotten overrated for a long time. And Uno gets written off a lot I even wrote him off after Dida murdered him and then he proved me wrong by coming back looking great.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

Wawaweewa said:


> Everyone knows that it _can_ happen, but that doesn't give you a very solid basis to predict a submission by Aoki.


Yes it does. Aoki is one of the best BJJ guys in MMA. He shows excellent submission skills and even does it from positions we've never seen before in an MMA fight. 

Granted BJ is also one of the best if not the best BJJ guys in MMA also but there is still a good chance Aoki could submit him, that's why I'm so interested in seeing this fight.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

MJB23 said:


> Yes it does. Aoki is one of the best BJJ guys in MMA. He shows excellent submission skills and even does it from positions we've never seen before in an MMA fight.
> 
> Granted BJ is also one of the best if not the best BJJ guys in MMA also but there is still a good chance Aoki could submit him, that's why I'm so interested in seeing this fight.


Aoki would not submit Bj, you're delusional. If Aoki was so damn good at Bjj he'd be owning people in grappling tournies too... but he doesn't. His style is flashy and cool and effective for MMA, but he's not as amazing as you think.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

There's a big difference between MMA BJJ and pure/sport BJJ. Shinya Aoki has the best MMA BJJ right now, and while I don't think he can sub Penn, I think he can baffle him and win a decision.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Damone said:


> There's a big difference between MMA BJJ and pure/sport BJJ. *Shinya Aoki has the best MMA BJJ right now*, and while I don't think he can sub Penn, I think he can baffle him and win a decision.


I think the other two people in your signature would have something to say about that lol.

But seriously Aoki is definitely top 5, but i dont know about _the_ best.


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## Suvaco (Mar 31, 2007)

You're right, BJJ for BJJ is different than BJJ for MMA, and I'd say BJ has better MMA BJJ than sport BJJ. I'd also say it's better than Aoki's MMA BJJ, but I've already written a post on that subject and I don't really feel like doing it again.


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## MJB23 (Jan 26, 2007)

wukkadb said:


> Aoki would not submit Bj, you're delusional. If Aoki was so damn good at Bjj he'd be owning people in grappling tournies too... but he doesn't. His style is flashy and cool and effective for MMA, but he's not as amazing as you think.


Like Damone said there's a difference between MMA BJJ and competition BJJ. Aoki is the best MMA BJJ practitioner in the world right now. I think he would definitely get Penn into at least one deep submission attempt. BJ has great BJJ defense and will probably get out of it though. I agree with Damone Aoki will most likely surprise BJ with his BJJ skills and will earn a decision.


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## Damone (Oct 1, 2006)

DJ Syko said:


> I think the other two people in your signature would have something to say about that lol.
> 
> But seriously Aoki is definitely top 5, but i dont know about _the_ best.


While Imanari and Kitaoka are excellent, excellent BJJ guys, I think Aoki beats them both by having better top positioning. Aoki's dangerous from all aspects, even standing. He'll attach himself to his opponent. Hell, watch the first round of Kikuchi vs Aoki 2 and see for yourself.

Akira Kikuchi beat Jake Shields and that was mostly a ground fight. He had NOTHING for Shinya Aoki. Aoki outgrappled him twice.


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## plazzman (Mar 29, 2007)

Damone said:


> While Imanari and Kitaoka are excellent, excellent BJJ guys, I think Aoki beats them both by having better top positioning. Aoki's dangerous from all aspects, even standing. He'll attach himself to his opponent. Hell, watch the first round of Kikuchi vs Aoki 2 and see for yourself.
> 
> Akira Kikuchi beat Jake Shields and that was mostly a ground fight. He had NOTHING for Shinya Aoki. Aoki outgrappled him twice.


Aoki also taps Imanari like a bitch in training as well.


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## DJ Syko (Jan 6, 2008)

Damone said:


> While Imanari and Kitaoka are excellent, excellent BJJ guys, I think Aoki beats them both by having better top positioning. Aoki's dangerous from all aspects, even standing. He'll attach himself to his opponent. Hell, watch the first round of Kikuchi vs Aoki 2 and see for yourself.
> 
> Akira Kikuchi beat Jake Shields and that was mostly a ground fight. He had NOTHING for Shinya Aoki. Aoki outgrappled him twice.


I just watch it and he is like an octopus or something lol, his legs are just like another pair of arms. 

I have no doubts that he's MMA BJJ is amazing, but am still no quite sure if he is the best while BJ is around, we just dont get to see BJ's BJJ that much because he is so good at striking too. 

But theres really only 1 way we can really know and it probably wont ever happen


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