# How far we are away?



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

..someday there might comes a day where we only see guys come from those barbaric MMA gyms. Guys who never became great at one traditional Martial Art and combined this art of fighting with another one and another one from time to time, to make the transition into the Sport of MMA. Outstanding Judokas or Wrestlers who after a couple of years of MMA training, switched over to the Sport of MMA.

This beautiful time we all can witness right now, will be gone and when a next generation of Bruce Buffer announces the fighters discipline.. we will only hear Mixed Martial Arts..

All the clash of styles will die and MMA will just become MMA for every fighter out there.. The great Karateka or the Japanese Judo Gold medalist can not dream about a MMA career anymore, cause he just doesn't have enough time left to keep up with those maniacs who only ever wanted to compete in a Sport hold in a Cage. For the fame for the Money.. 

Is this already the Golden Age of MMA?? Will we never see a top Level Judoka an All American Wrestler, or a ADCC World Submission Wrestling Champion make the transition into MMA anymore.. because he just can't keep up with the "MMA fighter"?? Will this beautiful time of the Sport will die forever, because of young boys who never even heard about a trational Martial Art anymore, like Karate, Judo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? All they ever heard about was MMA who some might even wanna call already a "Martial Art".. 

..do you feel the same way about this Sport of MMA? Do you feel my pain and the fear that this could and probably will happen someday to the Sport we all Love so much?? 

I even see myself stop watching this Sport. If all I need to know is, that the MMA guy fights the MMA guy.. two dudes who call MMA there Martial Art. Isn't that a sad thought, that this Sport will 99% head into this direction?!

Will we never see a Demian Maia again..


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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

Actually i hope this happens rather soon, because as it's own System, MMA will possibly start to develop different approach and schools of thought, the fighters would also be better if they were groomed in the cage from an early age.

I look forward to the future.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

I don't see that happening. The guys who train MMA instead of one discipline will have huge disadvantages against champions of single disciplines in that area. Striking is more instinctual also. So if you are a top shelf grappler you are going to be able to close the gap and surpass a lot of guys who have trained it their entire lives if you have a natural ability at striking like Fedor and Akiyama have. 

The future is more guys who are really great at one discipline, good at everything else, and great athletes like GSP and Anderson. That won't be the majority of the competitors though probably just a handful more at any one time which will make the sport a lot more exciting at the top.


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

To the OP:

Wow... how elitist. So if they don't come from a "legitimate" amrtial arts background they are just some thug from a "barbaric" mma gym? This train of thought is just stupid.

What you are witnessing now is the birth of a new martial art. The development of a new style of fighting born from a hundred older ones. It's just as legitimate. It's just as respectable to be a skilled mixed martial artist as it is to be a Judoka or a Karateka practitioner. They are all martial artists. Mixed Martial Arts is the new Karate. It will branch off into different schools of thought utilizing different training methods and different philosophies. It will not homogenize fighting. It will take fighting to new levels. 

And even if people train at these barbaric places it doesn't mean they will all fight the same. Different people have different talents and predilections. It will force differences in style and tactics. It's mixed martial arts. Not style versus style. It is about taking the best of each style that works for you and making your own style.

To say that you would stop watching if they didn't have a background in something you respect is just ...well elitist and mma doesn't need fans like you.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> ..someday there might comes a day where we only see guys come from those barbaric MMA gyms. Guys who never became great at one traditional Martial Art and combined this art of fighting with another one and another one from time to time, to make the transition into the Sport of MMA. Outstanding Judokas or Wrestlers who after a couple of years of MMA training, switched over to the Sport of MMA.
> 
> This beautiful time we all can witness right now, will be gone and when a next generation of Bruce Buffer announces the fighters discipline.. we will only hear Mixed Martial Arts..
> 
> ...



Joe Rogan was talking about this during the Carlos Condit/Rory McDonald fight about how Rory was one of the first guys who started young training in MMA from a blank slate rather than transitioning from traditional martial arts, boxing or wrestling.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Chileandude said:


> Actually i hope this happens rather soon, because as it's own System, MMA will possibly start to develop different approach and schools of thought, the fighters would also be better if they were groomed in the cage from an early age.
> 
> I look forward to the future.


So you look forward to guys who only ever learned MMA as there fighting style? Guys who never really bothered to become great at at least one Martial Art?

For me this is a sad future..



osmium said:


> I don't see that happening. The guys who train MMA instead of one discipline will have huge disadvantages against champions of single disciplines in that area. Striking is more instinctual also. So if you are a top shelf grappler you are going to be able to close the gap and surpass a lot of guys who have trained it their entire lives if you have a natural ability at striking like Fedor and Akiyama have.
> 
> The future is more guys who are really great at one discipline, good at everything else, and great athletes like GSP and Anderson. That won't be the majority of the competitors though probably just a handful more at any one time which will make the sport a lot more exciting at the top.


I am so glad to read a post like this Osmium! I hope you are so right with all of that. But to be honest with you.. I don't really see this being the truth.

Can you believe, that guys like Akiyama, Nakamura or Demian Maia who spend all there time to win Gold or an ADCC tournement in there particular Martial Art, can still make the transition and fight against guys who did nothing else then learning everything all togheter from the age of, let's say 10?? Guys who got pushed only become a great MMA fighter.

Is it really possible for a Judoka, who had to spend his entire childhood with this particular Martial Art, to have a chance to win Gold someday to still adapt some sort of standup fighting, to comepete against guys who did nothing else then that in there childhood?? 

I agree with you that guys who are as gifted as Akiyama, can make the transition maybe.. but others like Demian or Nakamura won't have the time anymore to actually keep up with those guys from the MMA gyms.



deadmanshand said:


> To the OP:
> 
> Wow... how elitist. So if they don't come from a "legitimate" amrtial arts background they are just some thug from a "barbaric" mma gym? This train of thought is just stupid.
> 
> ...


I did that on purpose. To get this debate going and to get exactly people like you in here to jump on my post. 

Thats the thing I am so worried about right now.. will these people really believe that MMA is there "Martial Art"?? Will they not even bother anymore, to become at least great at one Martial Art?? A style where they have an advantage on mostly everybody?

But I know what you are saying and I understand that. But don't you thing, that the excitment of the Sport will die, if everybody just studys the so called MMA "Martial Art"??
Wich obv. isn't a Martial Art?!

Don't you think, that the excitement of the Sport has a lot to do with all those different backgrounds and Martial Artists. Do you really believe, that MMA would still be that thrilling, if just both guys come out of an MMA gym and nobody really does one thing perfect?? 



Toxic said:


> Joe Rogan was talking about this during the Carlos Condit/Rory McDonald fight about how Rory was one of the first guys who started young training in MMA from a blank slate rather than transitioning from traditional martial arts, boxing or wrestling.


Oh I didn't even noticed that. Good point Toxic. 
Those are exactly the guys I am talking about. Don't you feel empty if the new generation of the Sport, includes guys like McDonald fighting guys like McDonald?? Guys who never really leaned to master at least one sytle of fighting?! One Martial Art to there perfection instead of just learning everything by ones and do everything mediocre..?? 

And everybody is saying, this guy has such a bright future ahead of him. And I have to admit, but I see this guy doing waves in his devision in a couple of years. 

Is this really the future of this Sport? I don't want to believe this..


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## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

BobbyCooper said:


> Thats the thing I am so worried about right now.. will these people really believe that MMA is there "Martial Art"?? Will they not even bother anymore, to become at least great at one Martial Art?? A style where they have an advantage on mostly everybody?
> 
> But I know what you are saying and I understand that. But don't you thing, that the excitment of the Sport will die, if everybody just studys the so called MMA "Martial Art"??
> Wich obv. isn't a Martial Art?!


How isn't MMA a martial art? And don't give me an answer about semantics. Yes, most fighter's of the future will learn 'MMA' as their main discipline, and the will become 'great' at the style of MMA.



BobbyCooper said:


> Don't you think, that the excitement of the Sport has a lot to do with all those different backgrounds and Martial Artists. Do you really believe, that MMA would still be that thrilling, if just both guys come out of an MMA gym and nobody really does one thing perfect??


First of all nobody does anything perfect. Your'e acting like a Demian Maia is more noble for pursuing Jiu-jitsu to a master's level, when, if you change perspective, an MMA fighter is pushing MMA to a master's level while Maia is being willfully 'imperfect' to that end..

Look at the Condit vs Macdonald fight, is isn't like Condit is a specialist, and that fight was incredible. We are going to be watching an era of fighting where everybody can be good anywhere and no one is really afraid to take a fight in a particular direction.




BobbyCooper said:


> Oh I didn't even noticed that. Good point Toxic.
> Those are exactly the guys I am talking about. Don't you feel empty if the new generation of the Sport, includes guys like McDonald fighting guys like McDonald?? Guys who never really leaned to master at least one sytle of fighting?! One Martial Art to there perfection instead of just learning everything by ones and do everything mediocre..??


You're making alot of assumptions that haven't been proven or have been proven untrue. Just because you work on alot of areas it doesn't mean you won't be master at one or many areas. Also, over specialization leads to irrelevancy and crystallization of form(like learning a reversal of a reversal for an obscure move, or rehearsal pointless movements). Which is where you get you're idea of 'perfection', which is nonsense.

The new generation of fighter's will be fighting at a younger age because of the popularity of MMA and its viability as a profession, and may even surpass some of the specialists of the older era. Look at GSP, his base was Karate but he developed his takedown game to be one of the best in the world. He is well rounded but elite in one area and his style is slanted in that direction.

This happens because nobody is the same. People are different and will pursue different strengths and styles. You just can't assume that because learning all areas will be necessary in the future, that all the style's and fighter's will be clones. This is a leap.

I understand the worry that Andersons Silva's Muay Thai will become extinct and Demian Maia's ground game will disappear, but these discipline's are ancient and won't die. There will always be students who will want to learn these exclusively, and be able impart the knowledge they learn, or even be willing to demonstrate them in combat. The next era of MMA may not see these types of fighters, but instead be made of a new type of martial artist the like's of which we've never seen. A near master in all disciplines (and maybe an actual master in some), with the fluidity and confidence to transfer into any area with ease, efficiency and purpose.

So while you may miss a Silva vs Maia matchup where 2 two tentative specialists play games with each other, I look forward to the day when 2 elite, well rounded fighters, actively leap into each other's strengths, confident in their own, and demonstrate all aspects of the sport.


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

I'd reply, Bobby, but Iuanes beat me to it. Completely agree and + rep.


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## Hawndo (Aug 16, 2009)

Since we all know MMA isn't a martial art it is a combination of whatever you choose to train in, mainly Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling Boxing etc. inst it natural to assume if someone trains "MMA" but naturally excels at the BJJ aspects that this "pure fighter" or specific "martial arts champion" won't really die so long as one fighter can implement a specific game-plan out of the norm? All people are different and I really can't see everyone adopting one "MMA" style, since some may prefer to stand and bang others may still prefer GnP, Subs etc


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

First of all thanks for the great reply!



Iuanes said:


> How isn't MMA a martial art? And don't give me an answer about semantics. Yes, most fighter's of the future will learn 'MMA' as their main discipline, and the will become 'great' at the style of MMA.


But I see it as a question of semantics. 

I don't call it a Martial Art, because there is no such thing as perfection in MMA. Everything what you learn will never be as good as if you spend all your time on one style. A guy who trains MMA, does not have the time to really master this style. He can never compete with a high ADCC Wolrd Champion, or a top level Judoka unless he doesn't take the time for it. 

MMA is a mix of all the fighting styles out there.. wich is suited for a Sport in a Cage. It's not a phylosophy for me! It's just something made for a Sport!

You can call it a sport.. but not a Martial Art in my eyes!



> First of all nobody does anything perfect. Your'e acting like a Demian Maia is more noble for pursuing Jiu-jitsu to a master's level, when, if you change perspective, an MMA fighter is pushing MMA to a master's level while Maia is being willfully 'imperfect' to that end..
> 
> Look at the Condit vs Macdonald fight, is isn't like Condit is a specialist, and that fight was incredible. We are going to be watching an era of fighting where everybody can be good anywhere and no one is really afraid to take a fight in a particular direction.


The thing you said about Maia is very true. He is imperfect as a Mixed Martial Artist. But Maia is a Master in something. He is a master at BJJ! Something wich takes a lot of dedication and will to establish.
The same counts for the sport MMA. It takes a lot of time to become a great MMA fighter. Thats why it is logical to start in an MMA gym, rather then a BJJ school. 
MMA is introduced for a Sport!

And thats exactly the thing I am so worried about.

Fighters from the future, will only see the Sport in that Cage. Guys who really wanna compete in that Cage, start training in MMA. They will become great MMA fighters. But the Martial Art and all the beautiful aspects wich come with it.. will be gone. And nobody will or can ever revive this, because they can not keep up with those guys who started as a little child, training only MMA right from the beginning. 

The Sport will be still there of course! But doesn't this bother you guys?? That the Martial Art will be gone then?

That we only have a Sport left? But the beauty of the sport will leave us? 

When I think about this Iuanes.. I could immediately start crying..

The beautiful beautiful background of guys like Lyoto, Nakamura, Shinya Aoki, Demian Maia even Brock Lesnar will be gone then.. and everybody is just that AN MMA FIGHTER! Nobody has a different background anymore.. 

nobody will try or bother anymore to demonstrate his background as guys like Lyoto, Shinya, Silva or Akiyama. They will just be MMA fighters who learned everything at ones.. but without a background.

MMA schools are the ones who will destroy the beauty of this Sport in my eyes.



> You're making alot of assumptions that haven't been proven or have been proven untrue. Just because you work on alot of areas it doesn't mean you won't be master at one or many areas. Also, over specialization leads to irrelevancy and crystallization of form(like learning a reversal of a reversal for an obscure move, or rehearsal pointless movements). Which is where you get you're idea of 'perfection', which is nonsense.
> 
> The new generation of fighter's will be fighting at a younger age because of the popularity of MMA and its viability as a profession, and may even surpass some of the specialists of the older era. Look at GSP, his base was Karate but he developed his takedown game to be one of the best in the world. He is well rounded but elite in one area and his style is slanted in that direction.
> 
> ...


Most of this is also true! BJ Penn for example is another great example here maybe even the best.


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

Bobby... you are still being an elitist. MMA is a martial art. It is. It is a martial art as much as jiujitsu is. Jiujitsu's actual philosophy is whatever works. Sounds a lot like mma to me.

Why is someone specialized in one thing more respectable in your eyes than someone who mastered multiple disciplines? It doesn't make any sense. There is no perfection in any martial art. Training in martial arts is a constant search for perfection but there is no end to it. You don't reach a certain point in Judo and relax because you have perfected it. You don't do that with Muay Thai, Karate, Kung Fu, Jiujitsu, or any other martial art in existence. 

To me mixed martial arts is the epitome of martial arts. It is taking 2000+ years of training and seeing what actually works. Thus the extraneous bits begin to flake away and we get a martial art that is effective. The purest form of hand to hand combat and - as more people train in it - we get to see the real differences between fighters. It will be two men with access to the samea training proving which of them has the stronger mind in the ring. Proving who has trained harder. Proving who deserves to be a champion.

If you don't like that this is not the sport for you. Fighting isn't about philosophy. It's about fighting. It's about stepping into the eye of the storm and coming out with your head held high. Your beliefs that it is not an art are superfluous. It will not change that it is. It will not change what is coming.

If you don't want to watch the evolution of hand to hand combat then don't. Go practice one of your "respectable" arts and let the rest of us enjoy.

And, just to let you know, I come from that old school background. I have a black belt in both Judo and Tae Kwon Do as well as a blue belt in Shotokan Karate. I'm not someone trained at one of these barbaric gyms.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

the old discplines will never die out because they are arts or sports in their own right. many people who practice them arent very interested in MMA at all, and I don't see any real reason that will change.


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

HexRei said:


> the old discplines will never die out because they are arts or sports in their own right. many people who practice them arent very interested in MMA at all, and I don't see any real reason that will change.


Quoted for truth.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

deadmanshand said:


> Bobby... you are still being an elitist. MMA is a martial art. It is. It is a martial art as much as jiujitsu is. Jiujitsu's actual philosophy is whatever works. Sounds a lot like mma to me.
> 
> Why is someone specialized in one thing more respectable in your eyes than someone who mastered multiple disciplines? It doesn't make any sense. There is no perfection in any martial art. Training in martial arts is a constant search for perfection but there is no end to it. You don't reach a certain point in Judo and relax because you have perfected it. You don't do that with Muay Thai, Karate, Kung Fu, Jiujitsu, or any other martial art in existence.
> 
> ...


Ok my friend, I understand your point about MMA being a Martial Art. But I still can not agree with that thoroughly. We can call it a art of fighting. But a Martial Art.. I to not have the heart to call it that!

But back to the topic now 

That you can never master a Martial Art is very true from you. Very true!

But don't you think something will be lost?? That the actual Sport will change forever? That the beauty of the sport will leave us?? What makes MMA great for you??

Isn't this a sad thought for you?? 

Don't you think it's part of the Sport? 

*All those different kind of backgrounds wich make a fighter so unbeliavble unique to us will just die out forever..* cause every single fighter will just be another dude who came out of those babaric MMA gyms. Everybody will be a boring MMA fighter who probably trained only Muay Thai, BJJ and Wrestling..WOW to become THE MMA CHAMP! Does this really not bother you at all?? Isn't that why we are watching this Sport? And why this Sport is so great compared to all those others combat sports like K-1 or Boxing? 

For me this thought just ruins everything.. and I really don't know how I can get over that. I really really hope this evolution of the Sport takes as long as possible. 



HexRei said:


> the old discplines will never die out because they are arts or sports in their own right. many people who practice them arent very interested in MMA at all, and I don't see any real reason that will change.


Thats very true. But you missunderstood me here! I was saying that the traditional Martial Art would have no place in MMA anymore. It of course will still exsist everywhere.. but also in this combat Sport?? Or will we never see a guy like Maia making the transition to MMA anymore?? just because they can not keep up with those guys who train at those MMA gyms from an early age.

Will the beauty of the Sport die forever??


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

The thought doesn't sadden me at all. New styles will replace the old. New strategies will come to the fore. Fighters will continue to use their strengths to win. 

Style versus style holds little appeal for me. I much prefer complete fighters facing each other. That is when I get excited. People who excel at one thing and one thing only just get no reaction from me. 

For example I can't bring myself to be a Maia fan. Sure he has had some really nice submission finishes but that's his only real way of winning. All you have to do to beat him is keep it at range and out strike him. It makes - for me - a boring fighter.

I like it when the fighter is dangerous everywhere because that is when it becomes a tactical battle. True strategy. That is when you see who the better fighter is. That is the beauty of mma to me.

As for "barbaric" mma gyms... I just don't see why you think they are barbaric. There is something beautiful - to my eyes - about people from different disciplines gathering in one place to share their knowledge. Pool their talents to create something new. That's art.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

For the most part, I found this thread ridiculous. There were a few soundbites that are just too irritating to ignore, though.

Those are below.



BobbyCooper said:


> ..someday there might comes a day where we only see guys come from those barbaric MMA gyms. Guys who never became great at one traditional Martial Art and combined this art of fighting with another one and another one from time to time, to make the transition into the Sport of MMA. Outstanding Judokas or Wrestlers who after a couple of years of MMA training, switched over to the Sport of MMA.


Apart from the loaded term "barbaric MMA gym," which is unbelievably irritating, what in hell makes you think that there is going to be a trend away from traditional martial arts?

Seriously?

Are the best fighters in the world slowly becoming less dependent on their backgrounds? Is Brock Lesnar using less wrestling than Dan Severn did? Is Anderson Silva less muay thai intensive than Pedro Rizzo? No.

The fighters are getting better at other areas of the game as well, but the vast majority of successful fighters have a background that they utilize with regularity. They're not homogenizing so much as rounding themselves out, and there's a difference between those two things: they are not sacrificing the skills of their preliminary backgrounds in order to be somewhat competitive in other areas of the fight game.



> I even see myself stop watching this Sport. If all I need to know is, that the MMA guy fights the MMA guy.. two dudes who call MMA there Martial Art. Isn't that a sad thought, that this Sport will 99% head into this direction?!


Apart from the fact that there is absolutely no support for this claim, the pettiness that you would stop watching the sport because there were less stylistically diverse matchups is pretty bizarre.

Props for giving me a complaint I'd never heard before.



deadmanshand said:


> Wow... how elitist. So if they don't come from a "legitimate" amrtial arts background they are just some thug from a "barbaric" mma gym? This train of thought is just stupid.


I agree with the "stupid" part. I hate the term elitist.

Every time I hear it, I wonder what the f*ck that means. Really, the word you want to use is "pretentious." Firstly, it's actually an adjective. Secondly, (and more importantly) it actually says something, other than attempting to alienate the person on the basis of having different tastes.



> What you are witnessing now is the birth of a new martial art.


This annoys me.

MMA is *not* a martial art, because MMA is not a system. The term "martial art" implies systemization, it implies cogency of techniques and similarity of styles between academies.

There is no "style of MMA." There is no homogenized way of viewing the techniques of mixed martial arts. There are a dozen substantial, well known instructors (Greg Jackson, Pat Miletich, Ricardo Liborio, Renzo Gracie, Mark Dellagrotte, etc.) who all have different "styles" of mixed martial arts.

MMA is a form of competition. You can argue that the systems that these guys are pioneering are martial arts. You can't argue that MMA is, because MMA is so much bigger than any single curriculum or systemization.

BJJ, Judo, Karate, etc. are all "styles" insofar as they emerge from a systemization of techniques and philosophies. MMA is different. It's an open forum with no instructors attempting to reduce the techniques to the most efficient and technically sound in the way that the kodokan or the Gracies did/do.



BobbyCooper said:


> I don't call it a Martial Art, because there is no such thing as perfection in MMA.


And there's a "perfection" in BJJ? Or judo? Or wrestling?

I'm just going to stick to the styles that I study, but I'll say this: there is no perfect. There is what's good and there's what works.

There's mastery. But there's no perfection. It's a dead concept. Let it go.



> nobody will try or bother anymore to demonstrate his background as guys like Lyoto, Shinya, Silva or Akiyama. They will just be MMA fighters who learned everything at ones.. but without a background.


I don't see that at all. I have guys who are looking to start training come to me for advice all the time, and the thing that they hear from me, and from guys much more experienced, and smarter, than I am is this: find a style that compliments your body type, where you're comfortable and how you want to fight and start there.

That's how you build a successful fighting style. Not: "I'm going to keep all of my skills rounded out and then take the fight wherever I have to in order to win." That doesn't work.



deadmanshand said:


> Bobby... you are still being an elitist. MMA is a martial art. It is. It is a martial art as much as jiujitsu is. Jiujitsu's actual philosophy is whatever works. Sounds a lot like mma to me.


This comment drove me to post. It's so grating to hear someone say: "Jiujitsu's *actual* philosophy is..."

I've been training jiu-jitsu most of my life. I've dedicated hours of sweat and blood and to hear a fortune cookie as what jiu-jitsu is all about is irritating. No one agrees about the philosophy of jiu-jitsu is.

The philosophy of any sport is "whatever works." In the same way the philosophy of any sport is "win the damn game."

Every coach has a different philosophy. Helio's from what I've read and gathered from his students was "use leverage, be crafty and catch him when he's getting aggressive." That doesn't work for everybody. It works for me, but my coach prefers: "Rack him up, drop your weight and make him squirm until you catch him."

There is no fortune cookie. Have a little more respect for the style than that.

I don't mind you taking the guy to task for being stupid, but either show some respect for the complexity of a martial art or don't comment on it. It's really irritating to hear the McNuggets dropped like that.



> And, just to let you know, I come from that old school background. I have a black belt in both Judo and Tae Kwon Do as well as a blue belt in Shotokan Karate. I'm not someone trained at one of these barbaric gyms.


Great. It's nice to have martial artists on the board. And I don't mind the commentary, but I noticed that "jiu-jitsu" isn't included in that background, which annoyed me further.

You're going to comment on the philosophy of a martial art you don't train in, when there are martial arts you can reference with some degree of credibility? That makes no sense.



HexRei said:


> the old discplines will never die out because they are arts or sports in their own right. many people who practice them arent very interested in MMA at all, and I don't see any real reason that will change.


This was a golden ray of sunshine in a bleak and irritating thread. I certainly agree with it, and though I really think it's worth noting that fighters come to MMA with a variety of backgrounds in those styles, and that trend doesn't seem to be changing at all, I don't mind just pointing out that the traditional martial arts seem to be doing just fine.


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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

> What you are witnessing now is the birth of a new martial art.
> This annoys me.





> MMA is not a martial art, because MMA is not a system. The term "martial art" implies systemization, it implies cogency of techniques and similarity of styles between academies.


MMA itself might not be a Martial Art on your definition, but new Hybrid-Systems are being born, sure, they are not big enough yet to spread in similiarties between academies, but as the sport continues to evolve i'm pretty sure some of the fighters/trainers will reach a point of influence where they will have created and spread their signature MMA Systems, altough it will probably take a few generations and some pioneers.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Chileandude said:


> MMA itself might not be a Martial Art on your definition, but new Hybrid-Systems are being born, sure, they are not big enough yet to spread in similiarties between academies, but as the sport continues to evolve i'm pretty sure some of the fighters/trainers will reach a point of influence where they will have created and spread their signature MMA Systems, altough it will probably take a few generations and some pioneers.


I don't have a problem with anything you said. Of course there are hybrid systems showing up. But there's no "MMA system."


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

I only posted a few of the martial arts I have trained significantly in. Judo, TKD, and Shotokan are simply where I started twenty years ago. Since then there has been Aikido, Muay Thai, Boxing, Kenpo, Wrestling, Kendo, and BJJ. Whatever works is the philosophy of BJJ as I was taught it. If you have a different interpretation so be it but don't yell at me because you don't like mine. You can take it up with my teacher if that's what you want to do. 

Elitist is actually used as an adjective these days. You might not like it but it is. SO you know exactly what I meant when I said it but pretentious would be correct as well. Your tone towards me would also count as pretentious.

And you and I may have different ideas about whether MMA is the birth of a new martial art or not but your opinion holds no more weight than mine. If you don't agree say it but you cannot conclusively prove that it isn't because it is a matter of perspective not fact. I believe mma is heading towards a systemized form of training. It's the only logical evolution from my point of view.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

deadmanshand said:


> I only posted a few of the martial arts I have trained significantly in. Judo, TKD, and Shotokan are simply where I started twenty years ago. Since then there has been Aikido, Muay Thai, Boxing, Kenpo, Wrestling, Kendo, and BJJ. Whatever works is the philosophy of BJJ as I was taught it. If you have a different interpretation so be it but don't yell at me because you don't like mine. You can take it up with my teacher if that's what you want to do.


Then you should've qualified your background fully.

Here's my issue: "Whatever works" isn't a philosophy. It's a platitude.

You can say it about basketball, football, hockey, academics, chess, cross-country skiing and whatever else you want. It doesn't say anything.



> Elitist is actually used as an adjective these days. You might not like it but it is. SO you know exactly what I meant when I said it but pretentious would be correct as well. Your tone towards me would also count as pretentious.


I'll say this, you weren't the only person who used the word "elitist." Just the usage in the post I quoted. Of course it's used as an adjective in contemporary culture. And in contemporary culture, it's similarly useless and unexpressive. I'm taking a little frustration with the culture out on you, which may be a little unfair, but it happens.

My attitude towards you is disdainful. Pretentiousness implies that I'm exaggerating my own importance or making some sort of unjustified claim. I'm not doing either of those things.



> And you and I may have different ideas about whether MMA is the birth of a new martial art or not but your opinion holds no more weight than mine. If you don't agree say it but you cannot conclusively prove that it isn't because it is a matter of perspective not fact.


Yay! The relativism defense!

I haven't seen that one in a while.

Seriously? Yes, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm also entitled to point out that you're position is incoherent.



> I believe mma is heading towards a systemized form of training. It's the only logical evolution from my point of view.


It's going to become systemized? How?

Are Greg Jackson and Ricardo Liborio and the rest going to get together at a summit and agree that there are some moves, with particular execution, and that there is a structured methodology for teaching them? Because that's the function of systemization that we're talking about when we talk about "martial arts styles."

That's what Kano did when he created judo. That's what Helio and Carlson Jr. did when they were creating what would become Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. As those things became sports, they shifted away from being a single system. With a public forum for the exchange and testing of techniques, the executions of techniques and the teaching methodologies tend to get more diverse, not less so.

It's hard to argue that the techniques in MMA have gotten more diverse because it started with incredible diversity, so I won't bother with that. But they certainly haven't gotten more homogenous, they're just more sophisticated and more defined in their connections to the styles from which they originate.


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

Whatever. You are being being an asshat. No one else found my arguments hard to follow. Only you find them incoherent. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm done here. I have other projects to work on.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I personally think there will always be guys who transition from another sport into MMA. Sure there will be those guys who train solely in MMA but the tradition of going from a certain sport to clash with someone from another discipline will not change. Sure the good old days when Royce Gracie dominated the sport are gone, but the discipline versus discipline theme will never truely die!raise01:


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

..The sport just keeps evolving. It will always be MMA. Look at each division. Shogun is not a wrestler but he's the LHW champion. Anderson Silva isn't a wrestler and he's been a dominant MW champion. GSP has blended all the aspects of MMA. Wrestling has been his biggest asset and he's been a dominant WW champion. B.J. isn't a wrestler, he's been the LW Champ for a long while. I seriously doubt the sport will become a bunch of gold's gym WWE brutes that just wrestle their way to a title. One dimentional doesn't mix with the word "Mixed"...


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

deadmanshand said:


> Whatever. You are being being an asshat. No one else found my arguments hard to follow. Only you find them incoherent. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm done here. I have other projects to work on.


Another brilliant argument.

"He's being mean to me, so I'm leaving." You are a mastermind.

It's not the argument was hard to follow, it's that it makes no sense to argue that there's "systemization" occurring without appropriate requalifying systemization, which you haven't. Define what you mean when you say that MMA is becoming a style, and where you see that occurring.

Don't just say "I see this thing happening, but I'm not going to tell you what I mean by it and I'm not going to tell you where I see it. And I'm not going to deal with the terms, and with the history. I just see it."


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah I definately agree with you. GSP is a true mixed martial artist but he had a base in karate before anything else. Everyone is great at something and are proficient at the other stuff to win a title. It's definately MMA and it's here to stay!:thumbsup:


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## deadmanshand (Apr 9, 2008)

IronMan said:


> Another brilliant argument.
> 
> "He's being mean to me, so I'm leaving." You are a mastermind.
> 
> ...


I'm not leaving because you are being mean to me. I'm leaving because I other things I need to work on. DO you have a job? I do and it precludes me spending a lot of time arguing with you about something that doesn't matter. Take your disdain somewhere else.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

What do you do for a living?


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

deadmanshand said:


> I'm not leaving because you are being mean to me. I'm leaving because I other things I need to work on. DO you have a job? I do and it precludes me spending a lot of time arguing with you about something that doesn't matter. Take your disdain somewhere else.


I have two (three if you count being a full time student), and they don't preclude me from holding intelligent discussions on this board. I'd like to have one, but the substance of your post since your initial response in which you got (a) defense about your background, (b) relativistic, (c) defense of a ridiculous cultural norm and (d) restated your position in a soundbite form, with no substantive defense.

You managed to hit four of my pet peeves in one post, and while that hardly makes you the worst poster on the board (or even in this thread) you can't really expect me to warm up to a post which manages to get defense and offer nothing to deal with the substantive issue I had with the coherence of your positions.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

kantowrestler said:


> What do you do for a living?


That's another thread, called, oddly, "What do you do for a living?"


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok, I'll break down the diversity of styles in the heavyweight top 10. Brock, Carwin, Cain, and Mir all have wrestling bases; Werdum and Big Nog have BBJ bases, Fedor has a ***** base, Overeem is a kickboxer, and JDS and Rogers are unspecified strikers!:thumbsup:


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

*One way to ruin a thread*

Seriously IronMan. Did you really not get the topic at all??? I mean Toxic, Chilendude, Osmium and deadmanshand got it immediately.

This thread isn't about "IS MMA A MARTIAL ART OR NOT"... it's about the evolution of the sport of MMA. *How will this Sport look like in 20 years from now.* not how does it look like today.. or anyhting like that. Most of your respond was more irritating then the enitre thread so far.

I try to make it as simple as possible now.. 

*I am talking about the Evolution of MMA! The Evolution of Cage fighting* 

Will we ever see a Demian Maia again in 20 years from now?? Will we ever see a high top Level Judoka who had to spend his entire childhood in a Judo Dojo, just to win Gold someday, making his way into MMA again in 20 years?? Will we ever see an ALL american Wrestler or an ADCC Submission Wrestling Champion making the transition into MMA again *in 20 years from now*???

Don't you think that these guys will have too much of an disadvantage over the guys who start training as a little child, in those "babaric MMA gyms" ( A expression I was using to express my feelings about those gyms and to get people in here who already train this by many already called "Martial Art" ) 

Isn't that a sad thought, that we will probably never see such a high level grappler like Demian Maia or Shinya Aoki in MMA ever again?? 

Because everybody who grows up today, will see Anderson Silva fighting in this cage. And the little boy will think.. wow Daddy, I would like to be an MMA fighter one day. Do you really believe, that this little boy will still sacrifice himself to learn a *TRUE* Martial Art like Karate, BJJ or Judo in his childhood?? If he already has the option to become an MMA fighter in those "babaric MMA gyms"???

Don't you think he will choose the obvious way?? And join an MMA gym instead of a BJJ school??

Don't you think a guy like Demian Maia would have no time anymore, to make the transition into the Sport of MMA?! After his so successful Grappling career??

Don't you think this era of fighter will die out?? And the future of the sport will be guys who call there background *ONLY* Mixed MArtial Arts anymore??? Don't you think that we will never see a guy like Akiyama or Nakamura anymore, who just jumped into MMA with there outstanding Judo background? These two guys would have no time left anymore to keep up with those little kids, who only ever trained in those babaric MMA gyms.. 

Little boys who see Anderson Silva and because of that join an MMA gym only and only develope Muay Thai, BJJ and Wrestling.. doesn't that thought make you sad, that this Sport will 99% head into this direction??



IronMan said:


> For the most part, I found this thread ridiculous. There were a few soundbites that are just too irritating to ignore, though.
> 
> Those are below.
> 
> ...


You are wrong! That what HexRai posted, was completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Of course the traditional Martial will always exsist. Who ever questioned that?? But will we ever witness guys again, like Akiyama, Shinya Aoki or Demian Maia?? Who just spend there entire life on there MArtial Art to become the best at it?? Will these guys ever have enough time left to addapt some form of striking, to comepete against guys who only ever learned a fighting style, to compete in a Cage for the Fame and the Money?

Of course these kids will learn BJJ, Muay Thai and Wrestling to become great MMA fighters in those babaric MMA gyms. But isn't this a sad sad thought about the future of the Sport? Wich should kill you inside???



Toxic said:


> Joe Rogan was talking about this during the Carlos Condit/*Rory McDonald fight about how Rory was one of the first guys who started young training in MMA from a blank slate rather than transitioning from traditional martial arts, boxing or wrestling.*


Here IronMan, does are the guys I am talking about. Rory McDonald. Is this really the future of this Sport?? 

If it really is, then yes.. I see myself stop watching it!


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

Its the inevitable evolution and our time will fade into something else. This is exactly how the purists of anything feel about the incombents who want to change what they have become comfortable with for long periods of time. Nostalgia and fear of change are what hold us in the past.
Pride had to die, the UFC had to adopt rules/weight classes and Lindsey Lohan had to finally go to jail. Its all sad in a way but cathartic none the less.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

I've never gone to an mma gym and not focused on either JJ or MT individually, with a separate coach too. So if it were to carry a stigma for being an "MMA" school, I would be offended because it's just a way for all of our coaches to save money on rent and supplies...

Since we already know now that a martial art can not be perfected in an entire lifetime, I can skip that part and try to be realistic (in a hurry).

Here is what I would do: 
Look back 100 years, what martial arts could you go practice as a child do you think? If you live in asia, you might be lucky. (Although I wouldn't call that lifestyle 100 years ago lucky) If you are from Europe or young North America, you MIGHT get to box a LITTLE bit, MAYBE wrestle but you probably won't want to because your day-to-day work is so hard, and the lack of money for food leaves you with little energy to train. 

Fast forward 100 years to the present. ENJOY martial arts and a long life. Don't get so aggrivated over some idea in your head like this, because you are probably one of the only people in the world aside from karate gym owners worried about this happening! 

We still have the olympics, and people from every corner of the world will continue to go there and be the best athletes on the planet at their individual arts. I don't see how anything could change much from the way it is right now except that the athletes will be faster, stronger, more technical, and more natural with their fighting in MMA. 

I definitely wouldn't say you are being elitist or anything, but this sounds _similar_ to when Boxers argue that boxing is better than MMA, and even if MMA suceeds boxing will have always been better. When in reality because it is the new thing, and involves more, they get somewhat defensively offensive about the issue.

The world is a big place, and there are more places to learn individual martial arts than there were 50,40,30,20,10,5 years ago. It will probably continue, too! Chin up Bobs! there is nothing to worry about here CALM THE **** DOWN


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

BobbyCooper said:


> Seriously IronMan. Did you really not get the topic at all??? I mean Toxic, Chilendude, Osmium and deadmanshand got it immediately.


As I said in my post, it wasn't the topic that led me to post, but rather the series of bizarre/inane comments that followed.

Frankly, I think your position on the issue is totally ridiculous, but since you want me to explain why that is, I'll requote the first section of my post, in which I dealt with the original post on the thread:



Me said:


> Apart from the loaded term "barbaric MMA gym," which is unbelievably irritating, what in hell makes you think that there is going to be a trend away from traditional martial arts?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> ...


So, yes. I read the original post. I even responded to it. All of this feels a little redundant now, but I have the day off, so whatever.



> Will we ever see a Demian Maia again in 20 years from now?? Will we ever see a high top Level Judoka who had to spend his entire childhood in a Judo Dojo, just to win Gold someday, making his way into MMA again in 20 years?? Will we ever see an ALL american Wrestler or an ADCC Submission Wrestling Champion making the transition into MMA again *in 20 years from now*???


I have no clue what's making you think that these guys are becoming *less* common in MMA. In fact, if you look at the top ten of each division, pretty much everybody out there started in a single style and then transitioned to MMA.



> Don't you think that these guys will have too much of an disadvantage over the guys who start training as a little child, in those "babaric MMA gyms" ( A expression I was using to express my feelings about those gyms and to get people in here who already train this by many already called "Martial Art" )
> 
> Isn't that a sad thought, that we will probably never see such a high level grappler like Demian Maia or Shinya Aoki in MMA ever again??


Again, you're making it sound like Demian Maia and Shinya Aoki aren't top ten fighters.

How many guys in the top ten right now started training MMA with no prior background in a single style? I can't even think of one.

Again, if this is going to ever be a trend (which I don't think it will) it certainly hasn't shown itself in the sport. Your entire argument is speculative.



> Because everybody who grows up today, will see Anderson Silva fighting in this cage. And the little boy will think.. wow Daddy, I would like to be an MMA fighter one day. Do you really believe, that this little boy will still sacrifice himself to learn a *TRUE* Martial Art like Karate, BJJ or Judo in his childhood?? If he already has the option to become an MMA fighter in those "babaric MMA gyms"???


Probably not karate. But BJJ? Yes. Muay thai? Yes. Wrestling? Yes.

I train kids. I see kids who want to be the next Anderson Silva all the time. Frankly, I came to martial arts after watching those middle tier UFC events (late 30s on) and started training BJJ, and muay thai, and Greco-Roman wrestling.



> Don't you think he will choose the obvious way?? And join an MMA gym instead of a BJJ school??


Frankly, I think that once people look at the sport, they realize that a good base in BJJ isn't going to come at an MMA school. Neither is a good base in wrestling. They will find academies where they can learn those things.

Even professional fighters have discovered that just having an "MMA coach" is insufficient. Brock Lesnar brought Comprido in to train with him. He didn't just work with whatever guys Minnesota Martial Arts had teaching "MMA."

I've been in a lot of "MMA gyms," and it seems pretty apparent to the guys who take their training seriously that learning other styles, putting the gi on or lacing up 12 ounce gloves, is important to developing a technically sound game. There are fighters who don't get that, but the ones who do are the ones who are going to be good.



> Don't you think a guy like Demian Maia would have no time anymore, to make the transition into the Sport of MMA?! After his so successful Grappling career??


I think Demian Maia's training regimen didn't change that much in transitioning to MMA. I'm not worried we're going to see fewer top tier grapplers in MMA over the next ten to fifteen years. Apart from the facts that the number of world class grapplers we've seen has increased over the last five, that there's more money in MMA and that a grappling base can still win a lot of fights, traditional BJJ practitioners believe that they have a roll to play in MMA, even as the sport changes.



> Don't you think this era of fighter will die out?? And the future of the sport will be guys who call there background *ONLY* Mixed MArtial Arts anymore??? Don't you think that we will never see a guy like Akiyama or Nakamura anymore, who just jumped into MMA with there outstanding Judo background? These two guys would have no time left anymore to keep up with those little kids, who only ever trained in those babaric MMA gyms..


I don't know that we'll ever see a substantial contingent of judo guys in the top ten.

But my reasons for thinking that have nothing to do with competitors like Akiyama or Nakamura disappearing, because their not. We've seen Dream and Sengoku sign a couple of very high level judo practitioners over the last year, and I can say just from personal experience that the level of interest in MMA in the judo community is growing, not diminishing.

The reason I think we won't ever have a substantial judo contingent in the top ten is that I think the absence of the gi severely limits judo competitors in MMA, and that limitation means judo players have to spend more time transitioning than they really have.

Also, the fighters who compete in judo don't even think about transitioning sports until later in their career. These aren't kids who are going to train at an MMA academy instead. If anything, you have to worry about the Japanese wrestlers doing that. The judo tradition in Japan is so strong that I can't believe it would be substantially diminished by kids deciding they want to do MMA.



> Little boys who see Anderson Silva and because of that join an MMA gym only and only develope Muay Thai, BJJ and Wrestling.. doesn't that thought make you sad, that this Sport will 99% head into this direction??


Again, I see no reason to believe that will happen.



> You are wrong! That what HexRai posted, was completely irrelevant to the discussion.


No, it wasn't. It just ignored your post, which I have no problem with.



> Of course the traditional Martial will always exsist. Who ever questioned that?? But will we ever witness guys again, like Akiyama, Shinya Aoki or Demian Maia?? Who just spend there entire life on there MArtial Art to become the best at it?? Will these guys ever have enough time left to addapt some form of striking, to comepete against guys who only ever learned a fighting style, to compete in a Cage for the Fame and the Money?


Sure. The money in MMA is good enough, and there will continue to be good grapplers who look over at MMA and say "I can do that."

We've seen more of those guys over the last five years than we have at any point in the history of the sport prior. We've seen it coming from wrestling. We've seen it coming from BJJ and Abu Dhabi.



> Here IronMan, does are the guys I am talking about. Rory McDonald. Is this really the future of this Sport??


Again, I'm having trouble taking you seriously.

Anyone who thinks that Rory Macdonald represents a significant change in the face of MMA should be equally convinced that Luke Cummo was going to make JKD a formidable fighting style in MMA.

Look at the top ten. How many of those guys started training the way Rory did? None of them.

In fact, the number of guys who came from strictly "MMA/toughman" backgrounds has *decreased* in the top ten since the days of the old UFC. Before, we actually had guys who didn't have a single style background.

Contemporary fighters are more dependent on a background in a single style to be effective and, just to be clear, the kids who are starting training now, who represent the next generation of fighters, know that.

There are meathead adults who think that they can become MMA fighters by going to an MMA class and doing circuits and learning basic techniques. Those guys (by virtue of that poor approach to training) will never take over the sport.

I think there's no reason to believe that the sport will ever take the road you're talking about. There's no indication that its on that road now.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

*Thank you for those great replys IronMan and SJ!*



IronMan said:


> Frankly, I think your position on the issue is totally ridiculous, but since you want me to explain why that is, I'll requote the first section of my post, in which I dealt with the original post on the thread:
> 
> So, yes. I read the original post. I even responded to it. All of this feels a little redundant now, but I have the day off, so whatever.


Sorry for that IronMan. Your reply is great and I am happy to answer.



> Apart from the loaded term "barbaric MMA gym," which is unbelievably irritating, what in hell makes you think that there is going to be a trend away from traditional martial arts?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> ...


The reason for that is, that the time isn't there yet. Brock still was able to make the transition into the Sport of MMA.. even though he wasn't able to develope any kind of striking game so far.

The time to this is still there. Brock is still a guy from this time. As was Dan Severn back then! Dan's and Brock's Wrestling background allowed them to make the transition to MMA.

But this is today! What about in 20 years?? Will an ALL american Wrestler still be able to make the transition into this sport?? I don't believe he can! Same goes for every other MArtial Artist out there. Thats why I always mention Damien Maia in here.. does he really have enough time left?

I don't believe that these guys have enough time left then, to actually develope an at least decent striking game or BJJ game to compete against guys from the new Generation of today.. who started already in an MMA gym. And learned everything together, cause they knew they wanted to become an MMA Fighter someday. But a guy like Brock didn't know that he would rather do this then Pro Wrestling later. He only focused on his Wrestling career at College.

I doupt that he or any other Martial Artist out there, could still keep up with the guys who already learn to compete as an MMA fighter right from the early age. Just for a Sport in a Cage! Guys like Rory McDonald..

Don't you see, that a guy like Rory McDonald, a guy who has such a bright future ahaead of him will rule this Sport and are the next generation of MMA?? 

These guys do nothing else then to train for this particular Sport. Right from the beginning. They have no background anymore. All the beauty of this Sport will leave us just like that. And everybody will be just that.. an MMA fighter with the dicipline MMA.



> I have no clue what's making you think that these guys are becoming *less* common in MMA. In fact, if you look at the top ten of each division, pretty much everybody out there started in a single style and then transitioned to MMA.


This is very true! But again, you are talking about today. You are talking about this century. This is also the Golden Age of MMA for me. This is the most beautiful time of the entire Sport right now in my eyes.

Like I said above.. what is in 20 years from now?? Do you again seriously believe, that a guy like Brock, Demian or any top Level Judoka could still make the transition and step into this Cage?? Against guys who did nothing else then train for this Cage fighting??

Guys like Rory McDonald are the ones! 



> Again, you're making it sound like Demian Maia and Shinya Aoki aren't top ten fighters.
> 
> How many guys in the top ten right now started training MMA with no prior background in a single style? I can't even think of one.
> 
> Again, if this is going to ever be a trend (which I don't think it will) it certainly hasn't shown itself in the sport. Your entire argument is speculative.


Of course, not yet! This is the beautiful time of this Sport. But what about in 20 years?? MMA gyms just started to grow and are getting more and more popular. Guys like Rory McDenold are the new generation in my eyes. Guys without a singe background.. just MMA for the Cage. Just training for this Sport!

Guys like Lyoto, Demian, Shinya.. who make this sport so beautiful will just die out?!



> Probably not karate. But BJJ? Yes. Muay thai? Yes. Wrestling? Yes.
> 
> I train kids. I see kids who want to be the next Anderson Silva all the time. Frankly, I came to martial arts after watching those middle tier UFC events (late 30s on) and started training BJJ, and muay thai, and Greco-Roman wrestling.


Exactly thats what I am talking about! These guys will not even bother anymore to become one of the best in that particular Martial Art. they just want to fight in that Cage someday.. thats why they train MMA insted of only BJJ or Wrestling. Thats the sad Generation of the Sport I am speaking off.

Do you want me to tell you how the Fighter in 20 years looks like??

I tell ya, he is a combination of Muay Thai (Kickboxing), BJJ and Wrestling.. Thats it! Thats the sad new Generation of fighter. Guys like Rory McDonald..

do you really don't see this Sport heading into this direction?



> Frankly, I think that once people look at the sport, they realize that a good base in BJJ isn't going to come at an MMA school. Neither is a good base in wrestling. They will find academies where they can learn those things.
> 
> Even professional fighters have discovered that just having an "MMA coach" is insufficient. Brock Lesnar brought Comprido in to train with him. He didn't just work with whatever guys Minnesota Martial Arts had teaching "MMA."
> 
> I've been in a lot of "MMA gyms," and it seems pretty apparent to the guys who take their training seriously that learning other styles, putting the gi on or lacing up 12 ounce gloves, is important to developing a technically sound game. There are fighters who don't get that, but the ones who do are the ones who are going to be good.


I never questioned that. And I think thats very true what you are saying here. But thats exactly the thing I am worried about. They will pick up everything from all those Martial Arts. And they will probably become great MMA fighter who can use there training then nobody else. But do really look forward to this generation?? nobody becomes really great at one thing? But good at everything?? For the sport and the Cage. 

I still want to enjoy guys like Shinya, Nakamura, Yoshida, Lyoto.. who really gave there all, to become great at there Martial Art. And that doesn't work here anymore.. guys who train everything at ones will never be known as the ADCC World Submission Champion.. they will just be that an MMA fighter.



> I think Demian Maia's training regimen didn't change that much in transitioning to MMA. I'm not worried we're going to see fewer top tier grapplers in MMA over the next ten to fifteen years. Apart from the facts that the number of world class grapplers we've seen has increased over the last five, that there's more money in MMA and that a grappling base can still win a lot of fights, traditional BJJ practitioners believe that they have a roll to play in MMA, even as the sport changes.


I hope you are so right with this!



> I don't know that we'll ever see a substantial contingent of judo guys in the top ten.
> 
> But my reasons for thinking that have nothing to do with competitors like Akiyama or Nakamura disappearing, because their not. We've seen Dream and Sengoku sign a couple of very high level judo practitioners over the last year, and I can say just from personal experience that the level of interest in MMA in the judo community is growing, not diminishing.
> 
> ...


Again, you are talking about today. I know that this time is very beautiful and probably the Golden Age of the Sport. But I am worried about 20 years from now..

The Gi is a big obstacles for the Judo guys, thats true. For me Gi's should be allowed again in MMA. It makes the Sport even more unique and great. I still don't know why they had to ban them.

But some made the transition into MMA because they couldn't reach there goal on the Olympic Level. Guys like Akiyama or Nakamura. Thats the thing.. some might don't even consider to step into MMA.. because they believe in there dream. But what happens if this dream is not achievable anymore?? Some might wanna make the transiton into MMA, just like Akiyama and Nakamura. But they will realize, that the time has changed.. and that MMA is now a true Sport with young mans and womans, who only ever trained MMA to compete in MMA. Judokas like Nakamura, see that and realize.. ohh I think I can not keep up with this new Generation anymore.

Why should I bother to step inside that cage, just to get beat up by some.. who didn't do anything else in there life?? 



> Again, I see no reason to believe that will happen.


I believe this Sport will change forever..




> Sure. The money in MMA is good enough, and there will continue to be good grapplers who look over at MMA and say "I can do that."
> 
> We've seen more of those guys over the last five years than we have at any point in the history of the sport prior. We've seen it coming from wrestling. We've seen it coming from BJJ and Abu Dhabi.


Yes, this right now is the paek of MMA! Masters from all kind of diciplines jump in it and try there luck, to become a MMA champion. But again you are talking about today.. is this really still possible in lets say 20 years. When every MMA gym is full from those Rory McDonald guys??! Who know already everything and are already complete fighter. 



> Again, I'm having trouble taking you seriously.
> 
> Anyone who thinks that Rory Macdonald represents a significant change in the face of MMA should be equally convinced that Luke Cummo was going to make JKD a formidable fighting style in MMA.
> 
> ...


*Again you are talking about today.. This right now, here and now, is the Golden Age of MMA for me. But in 20 years this Sport will change forever.. and not in a good way my friend.* 

Rory McDonald has one of the greatest futures in MMA ahead of him. Haven't you seen his fight against Condit?? The guy is only 20 years of age.. and already is a complete MMA fighter who just need more experience and training. They guy has no Background. His Background is called MMA. Thats the sad picture of the new generation from this Sport. He is the flagship of this new generation.

This guy has only 1 proffessional loss so far IronMan. This is the sad sad future of this beautiful sport.


----------



## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

This Thread had some seriously interesting reads


----------



## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

BobbyCooper said:


> The reason for that is, that the time isn't there yet. Brock still was able to make the transition into the Sport of MMA.. even though he wasn't able to develope any kind of striking game so far.
> 
> The time to this is still there. Brock is still a guy from this time. As was Dan Severn back then! Dan's and Brock's Wrestling background allowed them to make the transition to MMA.
> 
> But this is today! What about in 20 years?? Will an ALL american Wrestler still be able to make the transition into this sport?? I don't believe he can! Same goes for every other MArtial Artist out there. Thats why I always mention Damien Maia in here.. does he really have enough time left?


What evidence do you have for this trend?

Seriously? What evidence do you have that, in twenty years, the sport will be different?

You're dealing wholly in the speculative.

The fact is, we have guys that are coming up in the ranks with pure MMA backgrounds and *they're not as good as the guys that come from pure styles.*



> I don't believe that these guys have enough time left then, to actually develope an at least decent striking game or BJJ game to compete against guys from the new Generation of today.. who started already in an MMA gym. And learned everything together, cause they knew they wanted to become an MMA Fighter someday. But a guy like Brock didn't know that he would rather do this then Pro Wrestling later. He only focused on his Wrestling career at College.
> 
> I doupt that he or any other Martial Artist out there, could still keep up with the guys who already learn to compete as an MMA fighter right from the early age. Just for a Sport in a Cage! Guys like Rory McDonald..


I just think this is wrong. We've heard over and over again: The more well rounded fighters are the guys who are going to take over the sport.

We hear it when Rich Franklin was ranked #1 in the world at middleweight. He lost to Anderson Silva. He got *destroyed* by Anderson Silva. The fact that he was more well rounded, had better wrestling, had been training in all for the styles his whole career and focussed strictly on MMA, was irrelevant.

There are matchups that the more well-rounded guys will win. There are a lot of matchups that those guys will just lose, and as long as there are matchups that the well-rounded fighters lose, there are going to be successful guys coming to MMA from other backgrounds.



> Don't you see, that a guy like Rory McDonald, a guy who has such a bright future ahaead of him will rule this Sport and are the next generation of MMA??


I'm skeptical of MacDonald as a prospect. He's young and he's got a long way to go. Do I think that there will be a point in his career where he can compete with great guys, but I don't know that he'll ever be the greatest fighter in the sport. It's far too early to tell and, frankly, that division on the whole is way too young for MacDonald to be a factor for a while.

That's beside the point, though. You're point is, do I think a fighter *like* MacDonald could be a force in the UFC.

Sure. But I don't know that a fighter with that rounded a game, without a substantial area of skill that is actually superior, is ever going to be dominant.

Frankly, I think MacDonald and fighters like him are going to have a tough time with fighters like Ben Askren. Can MacDonald beat Askren? Maybe. But if he's on his back he's going to lose, because whatever submission game he's developed isn't going to be able to cope with the top game of Askren.



> This is very true! But again, you are talking about today. You are talking about this century. This is also the Golden Age of MMA for me. This is the most beautiful time of the entire Sport right now in my eyes.
> 
> Like I said above.. what is in 20 years from now?? Do you again seriously believe, that a guy like Brock, Demian or any top Level Judoka could still make the transition and step into this Cage?? Against guys who did nothing else then train for this Cage fighting??
> 
> Guys like Rory McDonald are the ones!


I see no reason to doubt it. Did a guy with a BJJ blackbelt beat MacDonald in the UFC already? Yes! And that guy wasn't even close to the most proficient grappler in the sport today.

Guys who specialize are always going to have a shot at winning fights, because they can take the fight to where they're comfortable and dominate it.

I've made my skepticism of the practicality of judo in MMA clear already, so I won't bother a second time.



> Of course, not yet! This is the beautiful time of this Sport. But what about in 20 years?? MMA gyms just started to grow and are getting more and more popular. Guys like Rory McDenold are the new generation in my eyes. Guys without a singe background.. just MMA for the Cage. Just training for this Sport!
> 
> Guys like Lyoto, Demian, Shinya.. who make this sport so beautiful will just die out?!


Again, give me evidence that this is going to happen. Until you do, it's purely speculative.



> Do you want me to tell you how the Fighter in 20 years looks like??
> 
> I tell ya, he is a combination of Muay Thai (Kickboxing), BJJ and Wrestling.. Thats it! Thats the sad new Generation of fighter. Guys like Rory McDonald..


Again, no evidence whatsoever.



> do you really don't see this Sport heading into this direction?


No, I really don't see the sport heading that direction. As I've said a half-dozen times now.



> Again, you are talking about today. I know that this time is very beautiful and probably the Golden Age of the Sport. But I am worried about 20 years from now..





> Again, unless you have evidence to indicate this is going somewhere, you're not making a case.





> I believe this Sport will change forever..


Clearly you do, but you haven't given me a reason *why*.

I mean, you can talk about Rory MacDonald all you want, but (again) that's like me looking at Luke Cummo after TUF 2 and saying "I think JKD is coming to crush everyone!"



> Yes, this right now is the paek of MMA! Masters from all kind of diciplines jump in it and try there luck, to become a MMA champion. But again you are talking about today.. is this really still possible in lets say 20 years. When every MMA gym is full from those Rory McDonald guys??! Who know already everything and are already complete fighter.


Firstly, not every MMA gym even has one Rory MacDonald. Just like not every BJJ gym has a Marc de Groot. MacDonald is a great competitor, but he's not the future of MMA by any means. He's a standout in a new movement, and the fact that he's the only one around right now says a lot about that movement, in my opinion.

Of course, it's possible that there are guys who could come in and change the sport. But just as I don't think MacDonald's going to be one of them (he certainly isn't yet) I don't think we get to make that claim until we actually see those guys coming. Unless you can tell me where they're hiding, it's all speculative.



> *Again you are talking about today.. This right now, here and now, is the Golden Age of MMA for me. But in 20 years this Sport will change forever.. and not in a good way my friend.*


We don't get to call this "the Golden Age" of MMA right now. It's a great time to be a fan, but "Golden Age" implies a level of hindsight that doesn't exist.




> Rory McDonald has one of the greatest futures in MMA ahead of him. Haven't you seen his fight against Condit?? The guy is only 20 years of age.. and already is a complete MMA fighter who just need more experience and training. They guy has no Background. His Background is called MMA. Thats the sad picture of the new generation from this Sport. He is the flagship of this new generation.


If MacDonald was 20 years old, ranked in the top ten and fighting for a title, that's fine, but he's not right now. He's just another young guy who's coming into the UFC and looking like a great prospect. He's had one fight against a tier two fighter, *which he lost.* And while it was a good showing for him, the guy isn't a flagship for anything until he's a contender.

He's a good prospect, don't get me wrong. But we don't get to claim that he's the flagbearer for a new movement until, you know, there's more than just one guy, and that flagbearer is winning major fights.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

You know what? I think you are right with this. You gave me a lot more hope with this post. I really hope you are right with all of what you are saying. Anything else would just destroy this Sport and leave me as a fan. 

I really hope that these guys we are talking about here, still have the chance to make it. This Sport would lose everything wich makes it so damn fascinating for me. I don't even wanna think about how my future picture would look like in reality.

But since all those MMA gyms just opnened up and people are getting more and more into it and into the Sport of MMA in general.. I see this making waves and producing George St. Pierre clones. GSP who did not have a background in Wrestling, but became the greatest MMA Wrestler today. 
So many young kids come out now and they wanna be an MMA fighter someday. Some of them just have to turn into outstanding MMA fighters. Of course they need talent and a lot of dedication to make it, but some will make it! It's very hard to deny that in my opinion. 

Even if you do not have much faith in this Rory McDonald guy.. he has all the potential to make it far. Maybe he becomes one of the best strikers in MMA? Who can answer that righ now! Lets see where he stands in 5 years. With only 25 years of age. 

And the scary thing is, that he is one of the first guys. One of the really new generation guys. And he is already so far in his career. Doesn't this scare you at least a little bit, that the trend might go exactly into this direction?

Rich Franklin already was one of those guys who made it. Good that you mentioned him. But then of course Anderson came by and destroyed him.. because Anderson isn't just somebody and had a sigificant background in Muay Thai plus a gift from somewhere else to become a fighter. But Rich was at the top for so long, without any signifitant background as a child. 
But then he ran into a guy like Lyoto and later Silva.. who had just the superior striking because of there strong backgrounds. So the two guys with the TRUE Martial Arts backgrounds at only one dicipline won there fights at there strenghts. So if this truly remains in the Future, then MMA will always shine. I just hope this will still be the case..


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

BobbyCooper said:


> You know what? I think you are right with this. You gave me a lot more hope with this post. I really hope you are right with all of what you are saying. Anything else would just destroy this Sport and leave me as a fan.
> 
> I really hope that these guys we are talking about here, still have the chance to make it. This Sport would lose everything wich makes it so damn fascinating for me. I don't even wanna think about how my future picture would look like in reality.
> 
> But since all those MMA gyms just opnened up and people are getting more and more into it and into the Sport of MMA in general..


That part's new, and it's fine to speculate about the effect that it will have on the sport, but it's still just speculation. It's not a trend.

When these gyms start producing guys that are competitive, we'll talk more about it, but right now, they're not making an impact.

Frankly, I think being a focussed striker will still mean something in MMA. It certainly does the way the sport is now, and I can't see a guy with no traditional background competing with B.J. Penn or Anderson Silva or Jose Aldo. Or, for that matter, Brock Lesnar. Stylistically, I just don't see it.



> So many young kids come out now and they wanna be an MMA fighter someday. Some of them just have to turn into outstanding MMA fighters. Of course they need talent and a lot of dedication to make it, but some will make it! It's very hard to deny that in my opinion.


Again, I train a lot of kids in BJJ and judo and have started teaching MMA to those who are interested. The thing that they figure out quickly, when they roll with me or one of the guys who has a better ground game than I do is that you have to put the gi on, you have to do 5000 armbars and 5000 repetitions of o goshi and 5000 double legs. You have to get back to the fundamentals of the technique if you want to be able to apply it *at all* in MMA.

You can't just learn to grapple in an MMA setting and expect to be submitting people constantly. It's not an effective methodology for teaching, and the MMA community knows that. There's a reason why toughmen like Bobby Hoffman and Dan Bobbish were never competitive.



> Even if you do not have much faith in this Rory McDonald guy.. he has all the potential to make it far. Maybe he becomes one of the best strikers in MMA? Who can answer that righ now! Lets see where he stands in 5 years. With only 25 years of age.


Sure, we'll see where he stands in five years. Like I said, he's a good prospect. But is he going to make a run at the title anytime soon? No. Is he going to have a serious impact on the top ten? No.

So, when that time comes, he might very well be someone worth talking about in the context of trends in MMA. Right now, he's not.



> And the scary thing is, that he is one of the first guys. One of the really new generation guys. And he is already so far in his career. Doesn't this scare you at least a little bit, that the trend might go exactly into this direction?


No, because one guy isn't a trend.

There was, for a long time, one successful judoka in MMA outside of Japan (Karo Parisyan) but we were all still skeptical that judo could be made to work in American MMA. It turns out, at least so far, that the skepticism was warranted. Karo was an exception, not a rule.



> Rich Franklin already was one of those guys who made it. Good that you mentioned him. But then of course Anderson came by and destroyed him.. because Anderson isn't just somebody and had a sigificant background in Muay Thai plus a gift from somewhere else to become a fighter. But Rich was at the top for so long, without any signifitant background as a child.
> But then he ran into a guy like Lyoto and later Silva.. who had just the superior striking because of there strong backgrounds. So the two guys with the TRUE Martial Arts backgrounds at only one dicipline won there fights at there strenghts. So if this truly remains in the Future, then MMA will always shine. I just hope this will still be the case.


.

Again, I want to be clear: Rich is a single case in the sport. We don't have a trend to look at. We have a few fights. So it's all speculative.

When we start to see more guys like that, we can talk more, but right now, it's really impossible to say with any certainty.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> You know what? I think you are right with this. You gave me a lot more hope with this post. I really hope you are right with all of what you are saying. Anything else would just destroy this Sport and leave me as a fan.
> 
> I really hope that these guys we are talking about here, still have the chance to make it. This Sport would lose everything wich makes it so damn fascinating for me. I don't even wanna think about how my future picture would look like in reality.
> 
> ...


Kids grow up playing baseball and end up being pro football players, grow up on the swim team and up running track in college. Definitely we will have people training MMA from a young age but we'll still see people coming into MMA with backgrounds in other sports or disciplines.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

IronMan said:


> That part's new, and it's fine to speculate about the effect that it will have on the sport, but it's still just speculation. It's not a trend.
> 
> When these gyms start producing guys that are competitive, we'll talk more about it, but right now, they're not making an impact.
> 
> ...


But what about Takanori Gomi, Evan Tanner, Nate Marquardt? (Nate started with BJJ but mixed that with Kickboxing, Kenpo and Wing Chun at a very young age already.. but I think you can still call his background BJJ). 
What about Michael Bisping?? 

Aren't those guys all true MMA fighters right from the beginning? I think you could call them all MMA fighters. Nobody had a significant background before if I am not wrong. Nate is probably a border case here.. but all the others??

I think there are more Fighters we have already seen, who don't have this typical Martial Arts background.

I don't really believe, that Rich is a single case here.

And now the scary thing again! Those guys I mentioned started there training at a time where they were no MMA gyms. Today you find them on every single corner already. It still worrys me.. and I think you can already see the trend wich tend to the MMA gyms. (Not fighters based)




HexRei said:


> Kids grow up playing baseball and end up being pro football players, grow up on the swim team and up running track in college. Definitely we will have people training MMA from a young age but we'll still see people coming into MMA with backgrounds in other sports or disciplines.


Very true! And a mix makes everything even nicer. I just hope that traditional Martial Art will keep his place in the Sport.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

BobbyCooper said:


> But what about Takanori Gomi, Evan Tanner, Nate Marquardt? (Nate started with BJJ but mixed that with Kickboxing, Kenpo and Wing Chun at a very young age already.. but I think you can still call his background BJJ).
> What about Michael Bisping??
> 
> Aren't those guys all true MMA fighters right from the beginning? I think you could call them all MMA fighters. Nobody had a significant background before if I am not wrong. Nate is probably a border case here.. but all the others??


Starting with the fighter I know the least about: my understanding is that Bisping had a kickboxing background long before stepping into MMA.

Marquardt clearly started his career in BJJ long before coming to MMA.

Gomi had a boxing background in high school, then branched into catch wrestling from there.

Evan Tanner was a high school state champion in wrestling in Texas.

None of those three are borderline cases.



> I think there are more Fighters we have already seen, who don't have this typical Martial Arts background.
> 
> I don't really believe, that Rich is a single case here.


O.K. But all three of the guys you named were brought up in a traditional martial art before coming to MMA. So you haven't really presented a good alternative to Franklin, yet.



> And now the scary thing again! Those guys I mentioned started there training at a time where they were no MMA gyms. Today you find them on every single corner already. It still worrys me.. and I think you can already see the trend wich tend to the MMA gyms. (Not fighters based)


Again, if there are no top tier competitors who have come out of these gyms, then I don't know what you're worried about.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Oh ok^^ I am glad you proved me wrong!

Guess I don't have to worry that much about the future anymore now lol^^ I hope you are all so right and that the Sport stays the way it is. Any changes from now on would disappoint me somewhat.. but we can't really prevent that.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

^^^Really? I'm hoping for major changes. Open up a few strikes that are fouls now, legalization and sanctioning in more regions, high caliber athletes coming to the sport, more public acceptance... This sport is in its infancy and needs to continue to change and grow.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> Oh ok^^ I am glad you proved me wrong!
> 
> Guess I don't have to worry that much about the future anymore now lol^^ I hope you are all so right and that the Sport stays the way it is. Any changes from now on would disappoint me somewhat.. but we can't really prevent that.


well as you know it takes a very very long time to get black belts in martial arts and my guess is people just don't either have the time,money or patience to do 2 black belt martial arts every week instead of learning everything at one place every week


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

UFC_OWNS said:


> well as you know it takes a very very long time to get black belts in martial arts and my guess is people just don't either have the time,money or patience to do 2 black belt martial arts every week instead of learning everything at one place every week


That may be true, but the guys who are going to be at the top of the sport are the guys who spend their time learning to grapple at a blackbelt level, learning to wrestle at an All-American level, and so on.

I don't know that we'll ever get to a time in the sport where it won't be dominated by top collegiate wrestlers and BJJ blackbelts. If we do, though, it won't be because homogenized MMA gyms put out a better product. I've been to those gyms, there's just no comparison.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

IronMan said:


> That may be true, but the guys who are going to be at the top of the sport are the guys who spend their time learning to grapple at a blackbelt level, learning to wrestle at an All-American level, and so on.
> 
> I don't know that we'll ever get to a time in the sport where it won't be dominated by top collegiate wrestlers and BJJ blackbelts. If we do, though, it won't be because homogenized MMA gyms put out a better product. I've been to those gyms, there's just no comparison.


rude!  I trained at SBGi Portland which started out as a BJJ gym but now is full fledged MMA (I rarely saw a gi) and that place produces good fighters in local shows. Obviously not world class or anything, but a lot of the world-class gyms are also basically homogenized MMA now, they just have world-class trainers in every specific area of the game.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

IronMan said:


> Anyone who thinks that Rory Macdonald represents a significant change in the face of MMA should be equally convinced that Luke Cummo was going to make JKD a formidable fighting style in MMA.
> 
> Look at the top ten. How many of those guys started training the way Rory did? None of them.
> 
> ...


To be fair IronMan Rory is one of the first guys to really come up this way from a young age, we have seen typically wrestlers etc, excel because they started training in there base at a very young age where your typical guy who goes to a mma gym is that meat head adult your talking about. We are only starting to see the emergence of adults who started training in mixed martial arts in at a young age. Of course you have a point talking about how eventually you need to expand into specialized training but as a base I at the least think Rory is an interesting case study to see how he develops as a fighter as so far he doesn't seem to have a specialty and has thus far looked well rounded. You can take that as a glass half full or half empty though were he doesn't really have an area of weakness but at the same time does not excel in one either.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

HexRei said:


> rude!  I trained at SBGi Portland which started out as a BJJ gym but now is full fledged MMA (I rarely saw a gi) and that place produces good fighters in local shows. Obviously not world class or anything, but a lot of the world-class gyms are also basically homogenized MMA now, they just have world-class trainers in every specific area of the game.


I actually don't think it's quite write to say "they just have world class trainers in every specific area of the game" of SBGP, but I don't want you to feel like I'm coming after your camp. That wouldn't be cool.

Let me say this, though: without a BJJ brownbelt or All-American level wrestling, you can't compete on the ground in top tier of modern MMA, and I don't expect that to change.

As far as teaching "homogenized MMA," that's not really true. Look at ATT, look at Jackson's, look at Sidyotong. These are academies that are not really teaching a homogenized style at all. They're teaching styles and then those guys work out what works for their body type. That's where the wheat gets separated from the chaff.



Toxic said:


> To be fair IronMan Rory is one of the first guys to really come up this way from a young age, we have seen typically wrestlers etc, excel because they started training in there base at a very young age where your typical guy who goes to a mma gym is that meat head adult your talking about. We are only starting to see the emergence of adults who started training in mixed martial arts in at a young age. Of course you have a point talking about how eventually you need to expand into specialized training but as a base I at the least think Rory is an interesting case study to see how he develops as a fighter as so far he doesn't seem to have a specialty and has thus far looked well rounded. You can take that as a glass half full or half empty though were he doesn't really have an area of weakness but at the same time does not excel in one either.


But that's my point. We've only seen one guy coming out of these programs and, as it turns out, he's not better than the other young guys who were brought up differently. There aren't that many 20 year olds competing in the UFC, but if you look at Jose Aldo, you see that the one style early life backgrounds even among the younger generation of fighters simply perform better.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

IronMan said:


> I actually don't think it's quite write to say "they just have world class trainers in every specific area of the game" of SBGP, but I don't want you to feel like I'm coming after your camp. That wouldn't be cool.
> 
> Let me say this, though: without a BJJ brownbelt or All-American level wrestling, you can't compete on the ground in top tier of modern MMA, and I don't expect that to change.


I wasn't saying they did (because they don't). In fact I went out of my way to differentiate my school from world-class camps, which do usually have world-class trainers. I agree with the rest of what you said.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Then what is Eddie Alvarez who has only high school wrestling experience and is the Bellator Lightweight Champion?


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

HexRei said:


> I wasn't saying they did (because they don't). In fact I went out of my way to differentiate my school from world-class camps, which do usually have world-class trainers. I agree with the rest of what you said.


Alright, just wanted to be straight about it.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well there maybe a time where your camp has someone in the big leagues!:thumbsup:


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

I don't even actually train there anymore


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

HexRei said:


> I don't even actually train there anymore


Well, I hope the smiley indicates happiness with where you are now, or at least happiness with not training.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah where are you training now?


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

My back yard and basement, lol. It's a matter of time and economics right now and yeah, im perfectly content with it.

Enough derailment! Back on topic.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Nice, who do you train with?


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Nice, who do you train with?


It was kind of a joke. I have a couple of friends who wrestled in highschool and are into BJJ and we roll every couple of weeks, and I hit the heavy bag, but basically I'm not actively training fighting anymore. I bike a lot for cardio and do some basic weights and plyo's and that's 90% of my workout these days.

But this isn't my training thread! Let's get back on topic.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

HexRei said:


> ^^^Really? I'm hoping for major changes. Open up a few strikes that are fouls now, legalization and sanctioning in more regions, high caliber athletes coming to the sport, more public acceptance... This sport is in its infancy and needs to continue to change and grow.


They need to make kicks and knees from your back legal but I don't really think anything else need to be legalized. I don't think the sport is in its infancy anymore either more like middle school. I really don't see the sport changing all that much in the next 20 years aside from more great athletes being involved and more depth to all the divisions.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

osmium said:


> They need to make kicks and knees from your back legal but I don't really think anything else need to be legalized. I don't think the sport is in its infancy anymore either more like middle school. I really don't see the sport changing all that much in the next 20 years aside from more great athletes being involved and more depth to all the divisions.


I realize it's a contentious issue but I'd also like to see the 12-6 elbow rule go away, and knees to the head on the ground legalized. I do think that legalizing the sport in more jurisdictions will grow it and that will be an important change. The first show at Madison Square Garden is going to be huge.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

HexRei said:


> ^^^Really? I'm hoping for major changes. Open up a few strikes that are fouls now, legalization and sanctioning in more regions, high caliber athletes coming to the sport, more public acceptance... This sport is in its infancy and needs to continue to change and grow.


Not really no! I really like the Sport the way it is now. There are little things I would like to change as well. Scoring system is one of those. The 12-6 elbow rule you mentioned.

But overall Major changes aren't necessary. I am more worried about the future then the present right now. 



UFC_OWNS said:


> well as you know it takes a very very long time to get black belts in martial arts and my guess is people just don't either have the time,money or patience to do 2 black belt martial arts every week instead of learning everything at one place every week


If this will be the future and people are successful with it, then this Sport just died!


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Even if that does happen at some point, guys will still excel more than others at grappling or striking, so it might not be a clash of pure styles more a clash of opposite strengths because both guys will know how to strike and how to grapple. I'm actually looking forward to that day, when a great striker can't be neutralized simply by taking him down.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah cause there will be a striker who is so good off his back that even on the ground isn't a safe place!:thumb02:


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Life B Ez said:


> Even if that does happen at some point, guys will still excel more than others at grappling or striking, so it might not be a clash of pure styles more a clash of opposite strengths because both guys will know how to strike and how to grapple. I'm actually looking forward to that day, when a great striker can't be neutralized simply by taking him down.


I have nothing against that at all Ez! And actually we already see that today. Thats already the present!

But we still have the clash of styles as well today and the strong Martial Arts backgrounds from every individual in that Cage. We still have those great ALL American Wrestlers like Chael Sonnen for example. Guys who you just can't stop from taking you down. Thats where the strong Martial Arts background is! If this beautiful aspect of the Sport, wich is so important for me as a fan dies out one day and everybody will call there Background only Mixed Martial Arts anymore.. then my friend the Sport just died for me and I won't watch it anymore.
Of course these so called MMA fighters will have there strenghts and weaknesses. Some will be better strikers and some will be better grapplers.. just where the talent is. But doesn't that make you sad? That there background will only be MMA?? Doesn't that make you sad, that the characters will leave the Sport forever??

Where does that leave the beauty of the Sport?? Where is the unquestionable and unique Martial Arts background from guys like Demian Maia, Lyoto Machida, Anderson, Chael Sonnen and on and on?? Guys who make this Sport so unbeliavble unique and facinating for us. 

You look forward to a future with guys like Rory McDonald only?! Isn't that a sad picture of the Sport? 



kantowrestler said:


> Yeah cause there will be a striker who is so good off his back that even on the ground isn't a safe place!:thumb02:


You mean a guy like Anderson Silva?

Kanto thats not what we are talking about here. This isn't the topic. We are talking about the *Martial Art * in Mixed Martial Art.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

i would like knees to the head and no illegal elbow rules, i think you should be able to do anything except the basic offenses like eye gouging,groin strikes,kicks to head when on the ground(even though in pride it was awesome)


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

I agree with your original post Bobby but I don't necessarily think its a bad thing. Pure MMA guys are still gonna have to have a solid mix of stand-up, grappling and a ground game. So whether that's a combination of Muay Thai+Wrestling+BJJ or Boxing+Judo+Wrestling/BJJ whatever, they're still gonna have to study a facet of each. Sure we may not have pure Karate guys, or pure BJJ dudes any more, but that's just the evolution of the sport friend! :thumb02:


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Nefilim777 said:


> I agree with your original post Bobby but I don't necessarily think its a bad thing. Pure MMA guys are still gonna have to have a solid mix of stand-up, grappling and a ground game. So whether that's a combination of Muay Thai+Wrestling+BJJ or Boxing+Judo+Wrestling/BJJ whatever, they're still gonna have to study a facet of each. Sure we may not have pure Karate guys, or pure BJJ dudes any more, but that's just the evolution of the sport friend! :thumb02:


I don't know Nefil 

For me as a true Martial Arts fan, the beauty of the Sport would leave. And what remains is just a Sport hold in a Cage..

All those amazing characters and all those different kind of Backgrounds from those fighters make this Sport so unbeliavble unique to me. Thats the most important aspect for me Nefil.

I really couldn't care less, that two dudes who call there Fighting Background Mixed Martial Arts, would go into that Cage and beat the shi.t out of each other. Two dudes who you can't even connect with a True Fighting Background. Doesn't matter if it is Boxing, Kickboxing or something else would be just fine for me. But at least have a Bakcground and Show me where you are coming from. 

If all this would just be gone.. I could not see myself still watching this Cage Fighting. I could not handle this Evolution of the sport.


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> I have nothing against that at all Ez! And actually we already see that today. Thats already the present!
> 
> But we still have the clash of styles as well today and the strong Martial Arts backgrounds from every individual in that Cage. We still have those great ALL American Wrestlers like Chael Sonnen for example. Guys who you just can't stop from taking you down. Thats where the strong Martial Arts background is! If this beautiful aspect of the Sport, wich is so important for me as a fan dies out one day and everybody will call there Background only Mixed Martial Arts anymore.. then my friend the Sport just died for me and I won't watch it anymore.
> Of course these so called MMA fighters will have there strenghts and weaknesses. Some will be better strikers and some will be better grapplers.. just where the talent is. But doesn't that make you sad? That there background will only be MMA?? Doesn't that make you sad, that the characters will leave the Sport forever??
> ...


I can't see that it will ever get that bad. We are never going to get to a point where MMA is something kids are doing from the time they're little. It's more likely we see a lot of Jon Jones in the future. Kids that are amazing at other sports or styles that learn the rest of the game young and are just that much more improved at everything by the time they are in their early 20s.

Pure styles will never disappear, because frankly, some people don't like getting hit in the face, so they will stick to a pure grappling art like BJJ or wrestling, even if it becomes a sport kids compete in. I don't think the future will be much different from now, other than people will get that much better at a specific style and more improve at what used to be weaknesses. If that makes any sense.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

I thought it was already pointed out that everything was fine and dandy!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

How was everything fine and dandy?


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Why don't you just reread the thread? Carefully.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok, we are fine and dandy in that all the fighters will still have unique styles!:thumbsup:


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## FrodoFraggins (Oct 25, 2009)

I personally don't care how future fighters make their way to the top and I don't understand the need to label fighters to a single discipline. I want to see talented, well rounded fighters that respect the sport.

I'm not particularly interested in watching one dimensional fighters that fail to address their weaknesses. And I wonder if it's worth it for an MMA fighter to become say a master BJJ practitioner rather than become more well rounded in multiple areas.

I can definitely see a benefit to gyms with experts in multiple areas that can bring young fighters up to speed in areas of the most benefit to them in the ring. My hope is that fewer and fewer fighters make dumb mistakes when they enter the ring. A well rounded training regimen can help with that. With that being said, it would seem to me that anyone that starts by learning multiple disciplines would be better off by focusing more time on one area that best suits their natural abilities.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah a wrestler who specializes in BJJ and his wrestling is Jake Shields, with very little striking!


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

FrodoFraggins said:


> I personally don't care how future fighters make their way to the top and I don't understand the need to label fighters to a single discipline. I want to see talented, well rounded fighters that respect the sport.
> 
> I'm not particularly interested in watching one dimensional fighters that fail to address their weaknesses. And I wonder if it's worth it for an MMA fighter to become say a master BJJ practitioner rather than become more well rounded in multiple areas.
> 
> I can definitely see a benefit to gyms with experts in multiple areas that can bring young fighters up to speed in areas of the most benefit to them in the ring. My hope is that fewer and fewer fighters make dumb mistakes when they enter the ring. A well rounded training regimen can help with that. With that being said, it would seem to me that anyone that starts by learning multiple disciplines would be better off by focusing more time on one area that best suits their natural abilities.


What do you have left then is just a simple Combat Sport.. just like Boxing and K-1. The entire excitement to see a Master like Maia, Aoki or Machida fighting at there strong Martial Arts backgrounds would all be gone! 
All those unique Characters would leave the Sport right with it. 

How can you look forward to this Evolution?? We already reached the point, where most fighters are well rounded Martial Artists. But still they have there unique Martial Arts Background wich makes the person so facinating to us. 

I really couldn't care less if two dudes who call there Martial Art MMA would beat each other up. This Sport would lose everything wich makes it so beautiful to me.


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## Servatose (Apr 21, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> ..someday there might comes a day where we only see guys come from those barbaric MMA gyms. Guys who never became great at one traditional Martial Art and combined this art of fighting with another one and another one from time to time, to make the transition into the Sport of MMA. Outstanding Judokas or Wrestlers who after a couple of years of MMA training, switched over to the Sport of MMA.
> 
> This beautiful time we all can witness right now, will be gone and when a next generation of Bruce Buffer announces the fighters discipline.. we will only hear Mixed Martial Arts..
> 
> ...


There are a couple of points I'd like to make in regards to your proposition.

Let's begin this discussion by comparing the future growth of MMA to sports that already have had a long time to grow, and perhaps develop more standardized techniques. To avoid making this discussion overly convoluted with intangible comparisons let's keep the subject on combat sports. The combat sports that come to mind first are wrestling and boxing. Although wrestling is somewhat lacking in the professional avenue, the amount of time greco roman wrestling has existed for has given it plenty of time to be exposed to the possibility of becoming one-dimensional within itself. I think boxing is a little different, since it's a highly commercialized sport I think the credibility of its depth and growth is a little higher than wrestling. But that's neither here nor there. The comparisons I'm about to make is simply to determine whether or not its likely that MMA will eventually become bland and one-dimensional(within itself). 

Now, let's scrutinize these other sports a bit. Let's ask ourselves, "What makes one wrestler or boxer, different from another?" And I think in posing such a comparison, it quickly becomes apparent that these sports still have depth. Whether your strengths as a wrestler be in the clinch -- does he have powerful headlocks that he transitions quickly into? Is his strength simply the speed he can transition from the clinch to a single-leg? Does he have great defense if he is on his back? Or is he a blanket when he gets you onto your back? These are certainly different strengths and weaknesses to consider at high level wrestling. Speed, strength, and technique all factor into what one athlete might excel in over another.

There are similar variations, if not more, in boxing technique. Some fighters enjoy different stances, while others enjoy different types of styles. If you look at Manny Pacquiao and compare him to Floyd Mayweather, for example. You'll see two fighters who are training in the same sport which is rich with growth, age, and technique -- and they have two completely different styles.

Essentially the point I think these comparisons highlight are that despite the similarities in the basic discipline being trained, different individuals will naturally possess different strengths. I don't think there will ever be a day where MMA will be like watching the same fighter fight himself. It just doesn't fit at all with the evolution combat sports have shown in the past, and I would even go as far as to say it doesn't make sense logically. We will always see fighters who are better at a specific discipline of MMA. However, the likely thing that will happen is that we'll begin to stop seeing fighters who have blatant weaknesses in the disciplines that aren't their primary focus.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Nice post and I see your point! 

We will always see fighters who have different strenghts and weaknesses. Some might be better Wrestlers and like the GnP more then the striking. Some are better Kickboxers and will use there wrestling to keep the fight standing.

I know that this will never change, but that wasn't actually the point of my concerns. I was worried about the "Martial Art" in Mixed Martial Art. Where does that leave the traditional Background?

Is the future really MMA? That means a combination of Muay Thai/Kickboxing + Wrestling + BJJ! Why should I even worry about learning Judo if you can't even use a GI in the Cage?? Why not directely starting out in Wrestling? Why should I learn Karate, if only a few guys were successful at it?? It doesn't make much sense! 
So the young generation is going to learn the things wich were so successful. 

Consequently, the traditional Martial Arts background and so the beauty of this entire Sport would be gone. We will never be able to actually admire guys like Maia, Nakamura or Lyoto Machida again..


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## Servatose (Apr 21, 2008)

I see. I suppose my response would be that you're most likely correct. Statistically, certain styles have been more successful in MMA. And from the perspective of someone wishing to make a career out of that, it makes sense to ignore styles like Karate, which although have been successful, the low percentage of those doing it make it statistically less effective than Muay Thai, in MMA.

However, on a similar note. There are always going to be athletes that rise above the rest and dazzle us. There will always be Michael Jordans, Lyoto Machidas, Muhammad Alis.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

What about grappling styles in MMA?


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Servatose said:


> I see. I suppose my response would be that you're most likely correct. Statistically, certain styles have been more successful in MMA. And from the perspective of someone wishing to make a career out of that, it makes sense to ignore styles like Karate, which although have been successful, the low percentage of those doing it make it statistically less effective than Muay Thai, in MMA.
> 
> However, on a similar note. There are always going to be athletes that rise above the rest and dazzle us. There will always be Michael Jordans, Lyoto Machidas, Muhammad Alis.


Exactly! And the kids from today will start learning fighting in those MMA gyms. Just made for guys who one day wanna fight in that cage. It makes me really sad to take that look in the future. 

At least we have the chance to discover and to follow the true Golden Age of this Sport right now! Lets just hope it halts as long as possible.

In a couple of years from now, we will think back how great this time really was and how much we miss guys like Demian, Aoki and Lyoto.. guys who make this Sport what it is today!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

What would Silva be?


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

I just wanna add that I share Bobby's fear. The situation in the UFC is different but here in the Balkans, there are more MMA clubs than BJJ clubs. And guys who train in MMA claim that trying to build a foundation is a waste of time, since MMA is it's own concept and one should go directly into MMA if one wishes to compete in it. And if you argue that MMA isn't a martial art by itself, coaches and guys who train dismiss your opinion by saying:"You don't train so your opinion means nothing.". And what's worse they have guys who are getting successful with only MMA as a background.

MMA is a sport IMO, but not a martial art. How can something be called MIXED MARTIAL ARTS and be considered a martial art itself!? It's complete irony! Secondly, those guys call trainers from, or even they themselves train in, other martial art styles. If it's a complete mratial art by itself why do they do that? Do I go to BJJ to learn ground game for judo? Do I go to ***** to learn throws? No, I have all of that in judo!

And thirdly, I consider guys with TMA background far more entertaining than guys without it. I'd rather watch Cung Le a than any match of Forrest Griffin or Rich Franklin.


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## nni (Jul 28, 2010)

Freelancer said:


> I just wanna add that I share Bobby's fear. The situation in the UFC is different but here in the Balkans, there are more MMA clubs than BJJ clubs. And guys who train in MMA claim that trying to build a foundation is a waste of time, since MMA is it's own concept and one should go directly into MMA if one wishes to compete in it. And if you argue that MMA isn't a martial art by itself, coaches and guys who train dismiss your opinion by saying:"You don't train so your opinion means nothing.". And what's worse they have guys who are getting successful with only MMA as a background.


I would think that gyms like that will not be producing world class MMA fighters. Ones that employ genuine bjj black belts, division 1 wrestlers, K1 vets, etc are the ones that will be successful. But if I get what you are saying, in a few years time one could start having McMMojos )), where they profess to teach MMA, but don't have anyone teaching specific disciplines at a high level.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Freelancer said:


> I just wanna add that I share Bobby's fear. The situation in the UFC is different but here in the Balkans, there are more MMA clubs than BJJ clubs. And guys who train in MMA claim that trying to build a foundation is a waste of time, since MMA is it's own concept and one should go directly into MMA if one wishes to compete in it. And if you argue that MMA isn't a martial art by itself, coaches and guys who train dismiss your opinion by saying:"You don't train so your opinion means nothing.". And what's worse they have guys who are getting successful with only MMA as a background.
> 
> MMA is a sport IMO, but not a martial art. How can something be called MIXED MARTIAL ARTS and be considered a martial art itself!? It's complete irony! Secondly, those guys call trainers from, or even they themselves train in, other martial art styles. If it's a complete mratial art by itself why do they do that? Do I go to BJJ to learn ground game for judo? Do I go to ***** to learn throws? No, I have all of that in judo!
> 
> And thirdly, I consider guys with TMA background far more entertaining than guys without it. I'd rather watch Cung Le a than any match of Forrest Griffin or Rich Franklin.


My man you are one of the very few people on here, who really seriously care about the "Martial Art" in Mixed Martial Art. I'm happy to see a real Martial Arts fan from time to time. Thank you for that!

If we really reach that time someday, that guys like Forrest Griffin fighting guys like Rich Franklin only.. then I won't watch this Sport anymore. I really see it going right into this direction! It's such a sad picture of an really beautiful Sport. 

Your Cung Le example is just perfect! It really seems like, that most people really don't even give a f.uck about it. It's beyond me how people can support those babaric MMA gyms.. and those little kids who grow up without a TMA background. It sickens me..


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Get over it Bobs, you are still delusional about this!

Take a chill pill, there are 10x more Martial art gyms around here than there were 10 years ago. I actually have TWO Karate gyms in my area. One GREAT Judo gym, a boxing Gym, which is a MuayThai gym at night, and a Gracie Barra JiuJitsu gym. And I live in a county with about 50,000 people in it..... FIFTY THOUSAND. THAT IS IT!!!!! Spread out over 4 towns!!! We have every main martial art!!!! And the schools are growing at a CRAZY pace because of how insanely popular the UFC is in canada. 

We have ONE real MMA gym. And it holds different classes at different times, with mma classes only on weekends. Real instructors, guys who are specialized in their own discipline.

Maybe you don't see things over here, but they aren't bad, In fact things are pretty amazing. You mentioned a few posts ago that maybe you were wrong, and I still think you are Bobs. I've read all of your arguments but they are all assumptions. All evidence points to Martial arts being here to stay, because they are tried, tested, and true ways to win fights. 

Be worried about the economy collapsing, society collapsing, your families future, and being forced in to FEMA camps as the world spins out of control, but NOT martial arts.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

SJ said:


> Get over it Bobs, you are still delusional about this!
> 
> Take a chill pill, there are 10x more Martial art gyms around here than there were 10 years ago. I actually have TWO Karate gyms in my area. One GREAT Judo gym, a boxing Gym, and a Gracie Barra JiuJitsu gym. And I live in a county with about 50,000 people in it.....
> 
> Maybe you don't see things over here, but they aren't bad. You mentioned a few posts ago that maybe you were wrong, and I still think you are Bobs. So no need to worry at all.. I've read all of your arguments but they are all assumptions. All evidence points to Martial arts being here to stay, because they are tried, tested, and true ways to win fights.


I said I hope I am wrong with all this. But I don't believe it anymore SJ, after watching all those videos with those little kids training MMA already. This is really how the future looks guys. Open your eyes and take a look!

This Sport will never be the same.. you guys just don't know it yet.

the thing wich sickens me so much SJ is, that most of you guys even look forward to such a future. How can somebody possibly do this is beyond me??

It's just the beginning man. Look, the UFC just became popular. What do you think will be in 10-20 years?? Every damn city will hundreds of MMA gyms. This is just the beginning of it.. of course there aren't many right now.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

I guess it's best not to worry about this. There are still fighters we wanna see and let's enjoy MMA the way it is now.:thumbsup:


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Freelancer said:


> I guess it's best not to worry about this. There are still fighters we wanna see and let's enjoy MMA the way it is now.:thumbsup:


Thats the only thing we can do! Be happy that we live in this time of the Sport. And enjoy the Golden Age as long as possible.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

SJ said:


> Get over it Bobs, you are still delusional about this!
> 
> Take a chill pill, there are 10x more Martial art gyms around here than there were 10 years ago. I actually have TWO Karate gyms in my area. One GREAT Judo gym, a boxing Gym, which is a MuayThai gym at night, and a Gracie Barra JiuJitsu gym. And I live in a county with about 50,000 people in it..... FIFTY THOUSAND. THAT IS IT!!!!! Spread out over 4 towns!!! We have every main martial art!!!! And the schools are growing at a CRAZY pace because of how insanely popular the UFC is in canada.
> 
> ...


THIS ^ I don't see what you are sickened by, even still.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I guess some just don't wanna see it!



SJ said:


> Be worried about the economy collapsing, society collapsing, your families future, and being forced in to FEMA camps as the world spins out of control, but NOT martial arts.


But thats exactly what I do SJ! I care about the things I Love the most. After Family and friends comes Martial Art. And for me, who loves practising it and then comes home to turn on a UFC Event and to watch a true Master like Lyoto at work is very important for me yes.

I can't really change to help the World anyway. So why wasting my time with it now. Maybe someday when somebody actually listens.


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## nni (Jul 28, 2010)

BobbyCooper: I think you are also confusing two different things. Some people are just inherently more talented than others. Out of 1000 Karate fighters you will not get more than one Machida. Out of 1000 bjjers you will not get more than 1 Maia or Aoki. Guys like Forrest Griffin or Rich Franklin achieve success not through flamboyant styles or perfect technique, but by working harder than most and being tougher than most. It's not like they would be like Machida if they had gone through his experiences. Bottom line is people are different. A guy like Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida, etc are one in a generation.

Just my 2 cents...


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

I thought Aoki was a judo or reguler JJ guy!:confused05:


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## nni (Jul 28, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> I thought Aoki was a judo or reguler JJ guy!:confused05:


Well, take out the b then. :thumb02:


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

I agree, that not having fighters from specific disciplines kind of takes the romance away from MMA a bit. On the surface, I kind of agree with Bob.

But, watching Rory fight is so damn exciting. Its difficult to get too concerned about the future if its full of very skilled, very well rounded fighters like him.

Time will tell I guess.


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## Intermission (Oct 1, 2009)

Jon Jones and Rory Mac are the beginning of this CRAZY sport we love. If you love BJJ so mix then watch ADCC, this is MMA. I love it for that reason.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Jon Jones is a great guy indeed. I like ADCC as well. MMA is indeed a mixture of disciplines.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Jon Jones is a great guy indeed. I like ADCC as well. MMA is indeed a mixture of disciplines.


jon jones is a lot of things but being a great isnt one of those things, great fighter yes but i wouldnt let him train at my gym with his attitude


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> jon jones is a lot of things but being a great isnt one of those things, great fighter yes but i wouldnt let him train at my gym with his attitude


Watchu talkin bout Owns? You'd have to work your way up to be his spit bucket carrier, and feel honored to fill the position


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

RustyRenegade said:


> Watchu talkin bout Owns? You'd have to work your way up to be his spit bucket carrier, and feel honored to fill the position


he'd feel honored if he payed me to wipe my ass, and i wouldnt even let him have a lunch break


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