# Frank Mir says Brock will crush Fedor



## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

Frank Mir says Brock will crush Fedor, and talks about his fight with Lesner and his upcoming fight with Kongo Go to MMA LINKER.COM


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

There's the vid man, you should probably post a link instead of telling people to go elsewhere. No bigs though I'm sure.


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## JMONEY (Sep 19, 2006)

eh, the topic of discussion isn't enough to make me go to that site.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Make sure to post links to the videos/articles you make a thread for, as SJ did.

Thanks.

Also, thread moved to UFC section.


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## Sicilian_Esq (Sep 7, 2008)

Frank has to promote Brock now. 

Wouldn't make sense if Mir didn't lose to the #1 fighter in the world, right?


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## CornbreadBB (Jul 31, 2008)

I no longer like Mir. Have him fight a healthy Nog after he beats Randy, you were lucky the 1st time around with Nog good sir.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

SuicideJohnson said:


> There's the vid man, you should probably post a link instead of telling people to go elsewhere. No bigs though I'm sure.


 Thanks , I didnt know how to find the link on this one, but thank you, I thought people would want to see this.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

jcal said:


> Frank Mir says Brock will crush Fedor, and talks about his fight with Lesner and his upcoming fight with Kongo Go to MMA LINKER.COM


Guess what, I actually believe it too.

I honestly think the Fedor thing went a little too far at one point and a lot of fans are now catching on to what catching Arlovski with a punch after he's outscored you in the fight or failing to finish Noguiera three times when Mir did it with relative ease in one fight or winning a Bisping-like gift decision against Arona when Arona has clearly out-grappled you really means.

His last "big win" was against Tim Sylvia (a guy who recently got knocked out in 8 seconds by a fat, old and tired boxer). 

They won't even allow Fedor to fight real competition in his minor leagues debut.

Sad but true, *recently* Fedor has been worth a lot more in name than in proof. *His early reputation is what his handlers are protecting in Strikeforce.*

Fedor's a thing of the past for as long as he can't prove himself against the best in the present.


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## 16volts (Jun 27, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> Guess what, I actually believe it too.
> 
> I honestly think the Fedor thing went a little too far at one point and a lot of fans are now catching on to what catching Arlovski with a punch after he's outscored you in the fight or failing to finish Noguiera three times when Mir did it with relative ease in one fight or winning a Bisping-like gift decision against Arona when Arona has clearly out-grappled you really means.
> 
> ...



I love you Fedor but well-said man well-said


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## Hawk (Aug 3, 2009)

Yes I believe it...


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

Let's just wait and see how will Fedor fare in a cage. As for Mir, I expected this kind of statement, so I don't think he has enlightened us with this interview.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

16volts said:


> I love you Fedor but well-said man well-said


Thanks, dude. 



Freelancer said:


> Let's just wait and see how will Fedor fare in a cage. As for Mir, I expected this kind of statement, so I don't think he has enlightened us with this interview.


I won't call Fedor a good cage fighter until he beats a good cage fighter.

Any can they throw at him to boost his image is still a can, whether he finishes the can in 10 seconds or 10 minutes.

A can will be a can. He has to debut with a serious fight.

Unfortunately, it seems his handlers and Strikeforce don't seem to have enough faith in his talents to debut him with a top guy @ Strikeforce.

A can is can...he has to debut against real competition.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

HeelHooker said:


> Thanks, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well it will probably be Rogers, right? A top ten fighter and definitely a serious opponent for Fedor.


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## turbohall (Aug 6, 2009)

A lot of fighters that came from Pride said fighting in a ring is way different then fighting in a cage, so who knows maybe that is why he didnt want to rush into UFC. But I would love to see him fight anyone in a cage, he has lose a couple of ***** fights or whatever you call it, because in Pride he can use the ring for anything that is why he was so good. So if he can lose there why cant he lose in a cage?


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> Thanks, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol.

Fedor is a collected 30-1-1 with over twice the amount of submission victories as he had with victories by decision.

He's beaten a Big Nog who was at his prime - without the staph infection and lack of knees that Mir "beat him" at - not to mention a primed Cro-Cop, several UFC champs, and guys who have had crazy pounds and inches on him. 


To take Mir serious at all is the really funny thing. He's never been a particularly great fighter. He's ok and he gets lucky sometimes. But he's not very intelligent or powerful. He's just... there. I mean who was his biggest defeat other than a big Nog at 25%? Tank Abbott? Come off of it already.


Fedor isn't just an MMA legend. He's one of the best, if not the best, Combat Sambist ever. That's a lot to say for a sport that has existed since the tsars. 

The man formerly served in the Russian Army for Christ's sake! He's not just tough physically, he has a mind and will that could bend a bar of steel. 


Seriously, don't bother arguing that a 4-1 fighter with legs the size of a high school teenager can be proven to be better than Fedor at this point.

There's just no intelligent argument that makes sense for that. Could he beat him in a fight? I guess if a light fell on Fedor's head while he arm-bars Lesnar, but aside from that it's hard to justify.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> Thanks, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what is Heath Herring, exactly?

Brock couldn't finish him. 

Fedor beat the man like a rag-doll while he was in his prime.


Edit: Damn it. How do I delete this and repost it to an edited version?


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## rogi (Aug 26, 2007)

I love how Fedor hasn't fought anyone good, yet Lesnar has proven him self by being baddest HW in the world by losing to Mir, beating Hearing, Randy and Mir. Wow, that's some fearsome resume.


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## Alex_DeLarge (Sep 5, 2006)

Sicilian_Esq said:


> Frank has to promote Brock now.
> 
> Wouldn't make sense if Mir didn't lose to the #1 fighter in the world, right?


Agree fully. Frank Mir, always looking to make himself look better in ANY situation.


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## Freelancer (Jul 5, 2007)

Lesnar and cage are just a bad match-up for Fedor. Nobody with an ounce of brain would say that Brock has more skills than Fedor.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

jcal said:


> Frank Mir says Brock will crush Fedor, and talks about his fight with Lesner and his upcoming fight with Kongo Go to MMA LINKER.COM


of course he'll say that. brock beating fedor, or even folks believing brock COULD beat fedor, only makes him look better.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

Tomislav III said:


> Lol.
> 
> Fedor is a collected 30-1-1 with over twice the amount of submission victories as he had with victories by decision.
> 
> ...


I'm not contending that Fedor's a good fighter.

I'm just saying that had Arlovki not been dumb with the attempt at the flying knee, he pretty much would have beat Fedor...as he was outscoring him.

Machida, given the opportunities Andrei got, would not have decisioned Fedor, he'd have knocked him out.

I respect Fedor as a successful heavyweight outside of the UFC *IN THE PAST*, but universally the best HW today? I have reasonable doubt.

In fact, there's no way for him to demonstrate that he _is_ in his current circumstances.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Lol I don't know y people keep dissing fedor i understand that we are all fight fans but come on. If brock falls to carwin would u guys still think he deserves fedor. Just because fedor is not in the ufc don't hate on him.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> Lol I don't know y people keep dissing fedor i understand that we are all fight fans but come on. If brock falls to carwin would u guys still think he deserves fedor. Just because fedor is not in the ufc don't hate on him.


If Brock falls to Carwin, then Fedor must not only beat Brock, he must beat Carwin too.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

I respect Fedor as a successful heavyweight outside of the UFC [B said:


> IN THE PAST[/B], but universally the best HW today? I have reasonable doubt.


he has done enough to earn that.is royce gracie the best submission artist even? Or is there a dude today who u think can challenge him on that.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

HeelHooker said:


> failing to finish Noguiera three times when Mir did it with relative ease in one fight


Man, nothing pisses me off more than this ridiculous statement. You sir, deserve a kick in the pants(and the teeth).


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> I'm not contending that Fedor's a good fighter.
> 
> I'm just saying that had Arlovki not been dumb with the attempt at the flying knee, he pretty much would have beat Fedor...as he was outscoring him.
> 
> ...


You're not a boxer, are you?

Well... I am. And Andrei was not out boxing Fedor. This was discussed over at the sherdog forum here (I hope posting a link to another forum isn't against the rules). 


Fedor did just as he should have, bobbed and weaved. That's Fedor's game plan and he sticks to it, it's why he's the best. He's smart, patient, and quick when he sees his opportunities.

Now I love Andrei Arlovski and he is my favorite fighter, but he was not better than Fedor that night in any aspect of his game. 



And as far as your doubts, please, name them. I would like to see why they outweigh all doubts people raise about Brock. 


Maybe somebody could finally address the turkey leg issue and those tiny little bumps he calls calf muscles.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

wukkadb said:


> Man, nothing pisses me off more than this ridiculous statement. You sir, deserve a kick in the pants(and the teeth).


propz wukkadb


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> he has done enough to earn that.is royce gracie the best submission artist even? Or is there a dude today who u think can challenge him on that.


That was my point.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> That was my point.


ya so y are u question his number one status if he has done enough...Hell i think Brett rogers would beat brock guess what fedor and brett will fight within the next year.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> ya so y are u question his number one status if he has done enough...Hell i think Brett rogers would beat brock guess what fedor and brett will fight within the next year.


Brett is a one round fight for both Mir and Fedor.

He is a bigger Kimbo slice. Once it hits the ground, he'll make even a middle tier LHW grappler look good.

No crystal ball is necessary to predict that.

Brett is Fedor's fodder. His purpose is to be blown out of proportion by hype and then make Fedor look good. He's neither Lesnar nor Mir on the ground (Fedor's strongest points).


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> Brett is a one round fight for both Mir and Fedor.
> 
> He is a bigger Kimbo slice. Once it hits the ground, he'll make even a middle tier LHW grappler look good.
> 
> ...


LOL wait until bret is tested before u call him garbage...logically y do u think brock can beat fedor?


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## EbonGear (Dec 31, 2006)

I could see it going either way, Fedor has more experience but Lesnar is a yeti so I figure they come out about even.


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## Alex_DeLarge (Sep 5, 2006)

wukkadb said:


> Man, nothing pisses me off more than this ridiculous statement. You sir, deserve a kick in the pants(and the teeth).


What's the difference when people say Brock couldn't finish Heath Herring but Fedor did?

I mean I'm with you. I don't agree with that crap, but there isn't a difference. Brock shouldn't get ridiculed in the same way Fedor is.

But I do agree with some radical Fedor fans out there that they're making Brett Rogers appear to be better then he is, so when Fedor beats him he'll have another "elite contender" on his resume.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

EbonGear said:


> I could see it going either way, Fedor has more experience but Lesnar is a yeti so I figure they come out about even.


I actually give the edge to fedor, yes brock is a yeti but his weapon coming in is the g&p and if randy could avoid it i think a more experience and skills fighter in fedor can do it. Plus fedor better on the ground,wrestling,striking...pretty much everything but power.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Alex_DeLarge said:


> What's the difference when people say Brock couldn't finish Heath Herring but Fedor did?
> 
> I mean I'm with you. I don't agree with that crap, but there isn't a difference. Brock shouldn't get ridiculed in the same way Fedor is.
> 
> But I do agree with some radical Fedor fans out there that they're making Brett Rogers appear to be better then he is, so when Fedor beats him he'll have another "elite contender" on his resume.


I'm not a fedor fan but if i was going to pick a potential match up that could beat brock i would say rogers who can match his size. Not saying rogers can beat him but he does have a 50/50 chance and does match up well.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> LOL wait until bret is tested before u call him garbage...logically y do u think brock can beat fedor?


_You_ are calling Brett garbage, not me. I think he's a better striker than Fedor but a grappler only need to have an ounce more grappling talent than a striker to beat a tonne of superior striking talent because of MMA rules.

The ground game favors Fedor...this should be a cakewalk.


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## mmafreak93 (Aug 17, 2009)

Fedor is tough. Hes an mma legend. Hes beaten guys bigger than him like Hong Man Choi, Tim Sylvia, and a few others. Hes a scary dude. But nothing would scare me than a 280 monster who enjoys nothing more than causing another human pain. If god was going to make a warrior, he would make Brock Lesnar. You can say skill beats size, technique beats weight, but thats a lot harder to say with a 265 pound all american wrestler on top of you. He's going to be the heavyweight champion of the UFC for a while. That in my opinion is a much better belt than that fake one fedor has from WAMMA.


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## turbohall (Aug 6, 2009)

Fedor is good, dont get me wrong Ive watched many of his fights, he fought some big dudes, he took some crazy punches. But he is getting up there in age(ring time). I dont think he has ever faced anyone that is as strong as Brock that can just get you down and punch you like 50 times before you know it. Brock is big and he moves fast. He dont punch fast standing but on the ground he punches fast. Fedor and Brock would be a way better fight then Brock and Carwin, I dont see Carwin winning because Brock will either GNP him out in the 1st or he will go the distance like 3 or 4 rounds and Carwin has never gone past the 1st so Carwin wont have the energy to go that long.


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## michelangelo (Feb 1, 2009)

A lot of these hypothetical matchups will become a reality once Strikeforce folds.

All but Fedor vs. Lesnar, that is. Since Fedor will insist on *cough* ducking Brock *cough* I mean, UFC co-promotion with M-1, that is. ;-)


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> _You_ are calling Brett garbage, not me. I think he's a better striker than Fedor but a grappler only need to have an ounce more grappling talent than a striker to beat a tonne of superior striking talent because of MMA rules.
> 
> The ground game favors Fedor...this should be a cakewalk.


bret rogers is a better striker than fedor...did i just read that? Bret rogers striking is like kimbo slice. But the rest of his game is unknown.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

Alex_DeLarge said:


> What's the difference when people say Brock couldn't finish Heath Herring but Fedor did?


There wouldn't be a difference, but I don't recall anyone using that argument.



> I mean I'm with you. I don't agree with that crap, but there isn't a difference. Brock shouldn't get ridiculed in the same way Fedor is.


There is a difference though... finishing Nog in 2003 compared to now is not the same task, no way.


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## Alex_DeLarge (Sep 5, 2006)

Some dude used it in another thread, or maybe it was this one, I'm not sure. Regardless though, I mean I can't fault Fighter A for doing this and that against another opponent when another fighter did better and not fault Fighter B for the exact same logic.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> Brett is a one round fight for both Mir and Fedor.


A one round fight, yes, but with one big difference here.

Brett wins in one round against Mir, but loses against Fedor. 


(For the record, I don't know if Fedor will beat Brett in one round or not, I think it could go to two, but I doubt it). 



mmafreak93 said:


> Fedor is tough. Hes an mma legend. Hes beaten guys bigger than him like Hong Man Choi, Tim Sylvia, and a few others. Hes a scary dude. But nothing would scare me than a 280 monster who enjoys nothing more than causing another human pain. If god was going to make a warrior, he would make Brock Lesnar. You can say skill beats size, technique beats weight, but thats a lot harder to say with a 265 pound all american wrestler on top of you. He's going to be the heavyweight champion of the UFC for a while. That in my opinion is a much better belt than that fake one fedor has from WAMMA.



God would make a man who could be beaten in a round by Frank freaking Mir and a very simple knee bar?


Well, I'm very disappointed in your lack of skill at making warriors, God. 


Also, when I hear about Lesnar's wrestling credentials, I want to put fire ants in my ears. The man is not an extraordinary wrestler by any means. He only went to division I after his sophomore year when he conveniently and mysteriously bulked up and started looking like a muscle-head jock instead of the fat kid at the lunch table. 

Now I wonder how he did that. :confused02:



turbohall said:


> Fedor is good, dont get me wrong Ive watched many of his fights, he fought some big dudes, he took some crazy punches. But he is getting up there in age(ring time).



You had to put that (ring time) in there to make it look like you weren't just full of it, didn't you? :wink01:


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

Alex_DeLarge said:


> Some dude used it in another thread, or maybe it was this one, I'm not sure. Regardless though, I mean I can't fault Fighter A for doing this and that against another opponent when another fighter did better and not fault Fighter B for the exact same logic.


Ya ya, it's just bullshit MMA math though, and it's not like Mir is some god because he stopped Nog, and everyone else sucks because they couldn't; he just fought Nog at the right time.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> bret rogers is a better striker than fedor...did i just read that? Bret rogers striking is like kimbo slice. But the rest of his game is unknown.


Yes, Kimbo is a better striker than Fedor too.

Fedor hits hard but he's a terrible striker. If he clips a fool, he'll knock out a fool but he's got horrendous head and foot movement and swings so wildly that he could only get away with opening himself so much against HWs like Tim Sylvia and the collection of torpid size-show-freaks he's put exhibition matches against in the past.

Against surgical ninjas like Machida, Fedor's lack of discipline would send him to bed. He's child's play.

Fedor hits hard, Fedor doesn't strike well. That's all good and dandy against stationary targets like Sylvia but it gets you murdered by good strikers (and sorry, Cro cop has always been a good kicker not an elite striker to me.)

Fedor's salvation is grappling. He's not the delusory, comprehensive fighter that legend attributes him to be, and even Arlovski proved that...what more of superior strikers?


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

HeelHooker said:


> Yes, Kimbo is a better striker than Fedor too.
> 
> Fedor hits hard but he's a terrible striker. If he clips a fool, he'll knock out a fool but he's got terrible head and foot movement and swings so wildly that he could only get away with opening himself so much against HW like Tim Sylvia and the collection of torpid size show freaks he's put exhibition matches against in the past.
> 
> ...


Oh. my. goodness. Can you just delete your account and go post somewhere else? Seriously.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> Yes, Kimbo is a better striker than Fedor too.
> 
> Fedor hits hard but he's a terrible striker. If he clips a fool, he'll knock out a fool but he's got terrible head and foot movement and swings so wildly that he could only get away with opening himself so much against HW like Tim Sylvia and the collection of torpid size show freaks he's put exhibition matches against in the past.
> 
> ...


Lol u need to put down the crack pipe, u need to watch or do some research on fedor... i aint even gonig to reply to that retarded shit u posted about kimbo being a better striker than fedor.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

wukkadb said:


> Oh. my. goodness. Can you just delete your account and go post somewhere else? Seriously.


He didn't visit my link showing the replays of the AA vs. Fedor fight.


I'm a boxer myself so if anyone should be criticizing technique and sloppiness it should be me. But I'm actually rather impressed by Fedor's skills in boxing.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

Tomislav III said:


> He didn't visit my link showing the replays of the AA vs. Fedor fight.
> 
> 
> I'm a boxer myself so if anyone should be criticizing technique and sloppiness it should be me. But I'm actually rather impressed by Fedor's skills in boxing.


Fedor just has an unorthodox striking game, wihch is much different than a traditional western boxing style, so people are quick to call him sloppy and untechnical, which isn't true.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

wukkadb said:


> Oh. my. goodness. Can you just delete your account and go post somewhere else? Seriously.


I will engage you when you get mature enough to debate the subject and not employ the denigration of character to discount my views.

I am not so fickle that my beliefs change on such whims.

Now...back to the debate at hand, respectfully.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> I will engage you when you get mature enough to debate the subject and not employ the denigration of character to discount my views.
> 
> I am not so fickle that my beliefs change on such whims.
> 
> Now...back to the debate at hand, respectfully.


iight i'll be mature explain to me how kimbo is a better striker.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> Lol u need to put down the crack pipe, u need to watch or do some research on fedor... i aint even gonig to reply to that retarded shit u posted about kimbo being a better striker than fedor.


Wow...and I've been debating you for nearly an hour now and actually had held your seeming level-headedness in good esteem. :confused02:

Oh well, it's been fun nontheless. Goodnight.

We're now wasting time.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

HeelHooker said:


> I will engage you when you get mature enough to debate the subject and not employ the denigration of character to discount my views.
> 
> I am not so fickle that my beliefs change on such whims.
> 
> Now...back to the debate at hand, respectfully.


You're not debating, you are just hating on Fedor, and it's obvious that you haven't even seen the majority of his fights. 

Also, did you check out the link that Tomislav III provided?


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Someday brock and fedor will fight, but fedor will have lost by then and the mystique will be gone. One of the strikeforce guys is going to beat him. By the time this fight happens brock will be considered the number one heavyweight in the world and fedor will be trying to get his name back in the number one slot. Brock will have come a long way by then and will probably beat fedor. I think that frank mir knows his stuff and is probably talking brock up a little because he beat him, but i think he made some good points. There are my thoughts and predictions. Probably way off, but only time will tell.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

joshua7789 said:


> Someday brock and fedor will fight, but fedor will have lost by then and the mystique will be gone. One of the strikeforce guys is going to beat him. By the time this fight happens brock will be considered the number one heavyweight in the world and fedor will be trying to get his name back in the number one slot. Brock will have come a long way by then and will probably beat fedor. I think that frank mir knows his stuff and is probably talking brock up a little because he beat him, but i think he made some good points. There are my thoughts and predictions. Probably way off, but only time will tell.


Good post.

Brock has a serious future indeed...the dude is really growing on me -- he doesn't give a bleep, he's convinced he's the best and won't bow to any human gods. :thumb02:

Goodnight all.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

joshua7789 said:


> I think that frank mir knows his stuff


Not to say that this sentence alone discredits everything you say... But man... It comes close.


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## ZENKI1 (Apr 19, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> Guess what, I actually believe it too.
> 
> I honestly think the Fedor thing went a little too far at one point and a lot of fans are now catching on to what catching Arlovski with a punch after he's outscored you in the fight or failing to finish Noguiera three times when Mir did it with relative ease in one fight or winning a Bisping-like gift decision against Arona when Arona has clearly out-grappled you really means.
> 
> ...


LOL Dude your comment is totally flawed.. Sounds like a paid UFC comment.. Your able to take time and age in consideration against Fedor and recent opponets but not against Mir and his win over Nog in attempt to claim these fighters are on the same playing field.. 

Mir is a overrated joke. The man said on his last appereance on inside mma how he thought Fedor was uncomparable and the #1 now after losing to Brock he's number one lol.. WTF... How is Strikeforce also cashing in on past fame of Fedor when Fedor still hasnt lost.. He still has a winning record and he can only beat who is put in front of him.. Kind of like the Carwin vs COckchestnar bout coming up.. How is Shane deserving of a shot at the greatest belt in all of Mma ? :sarcastic12:


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Tomislav III said:


> Not to say that this sentence alone discredits everything you say... But man... It comes close.


I get that a lot of people dont like frank mir, but he does know his shit when it comes to mma. His commentary is pretty solid when it comes to facts and his generally comes to fight with a very solid gameplan. You saying that frank mir doesnt know his shit makes it pretty obvious that you dont care for the guy and dont actually care about his technical knowledge.


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## GKY (Jun 3, 2007)

This isn't unreasonable. He simply said that Fedor never faught in the cage before and because of that would lose to Lesnar. I semi agree.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

HeelHooker said:


> Yes, Kimbo is a better striker than Fedor too.


:sign04:


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

rygu said:


> :sign04:


By HW standards, Fedor is an okay striker.

By UFC MW/LHW standards, he's a more powerful, less technical version of Griffin.

Please cite examples were Fedor is a great technical striker, not just a stronger hitter albeit sloppy.

He's a sloppy striker.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

HeelHooker said:


> By HW standards, Fedor is an okay striker.
> 
> By UFC MW/LHW standards, he's a more powerful, less technical version of Griffin.
> 
> ...


He's not sloppy you noob, he's unorthodox. He doesn't practice traditional western style boxing, didn't you read my post? How many Fedor fights have you even seen?


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

wukkadb said:


> He's not sloppy you noob, he's unorthodox. He doesn't practice traditional western style boxing, didn't you read my post? How many Fedor fights have you even seen?



Like I said, I scan your posts for derogatives first before deciding whether or not to read them.

The abuse is ubiquitous in your responses.

Don't be insecure. Defend your points or you're writing to yourself because I won't bother reading your posts if they're laced with unneccessary abuse.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

HeelHooker said:


> Please cite examples were Fedor is a great technical striker, not just a stronger hitter albeit sloppy.


Fedor's record speaks for itself. He isn't a great striker but his striking style is effective and his head movement is excellent. 

I would prefer you give me an example of how Kevin Ferguson has better striking then Fedor.


----------



## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

rygu said:


> Fedor's record speaks for itself. He isn't a great striker but his striking style is effective and his head movement is excellent.
> 
> I would prefer you give me an example of how Kevin Ferguson has better striking then Fedor.


Head and foot movement.

When people strike with Kimbo, they're not distracted by his takedown and ground game, Fedor's ground game nullifies a lot of heavyweight stand up--albeit the slowest and most predictable stand up in MMA.

You're not arguing that the HW divisions of the world have comparable striking talent to the UFC's LHW division are you?


----------



## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

HeelHooker said:


> Like I said, I scan your posts for derogatives first before deciding whether or not to read them.
> 
> The abuse is ubiquitous in your responses.
> 
> Don't be insecure. Defend your points or you're writing to yourself because I won't bother reading your posts if they're laced with unneccessary abuse.


You haven't bothered to read any posts or refute a single post, you are just pretending to know everything, which you clearly don't. 

So, how many Fedor fights have you even seen? When did you start watching MMA? Did you look at the link that Tomislav III sent you? Do you know what "traditional western boxing" means? 

If you'd be so kind, I'd love to hear your answers.


----------



## dario03 (Oct 8, 2008)

I find it interesting that Frank says this now. It wasn't that long ago that he seemed to have a very different opinion.

A excerpt from http://mma.fanhouse.com/2008/12/10/frank-mir-brock-lesnar-will-never-beat-me-but-no-such-guarant/ Dec 12, 2008: 


> Mir said it's that training that gives him a chance to beat Nogueira in two weeks, and that makes him certain he'll beat Lesnar if he gets the opportunity in 2009.
> 
> But there's one person Mir doesn't think he could beat: Fedor Emelianenko.
> 
> ...


I wonder what has made him change his opinion.


----------



## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

wukkadb said:


> You haven't bothered to read any posts or refute a single post, you are just pretending to know everything, which you clearly don't.
> 
> So, how many Fedor fights have you even seen? When did you start watching MMA? Did you look at the link that Tomislav III sent you? Do you know what "traditional western boxing" means?
> 
> If you'd be so kind, I'd love to hear your answers.


I've not just boxed, I've participated in grappling contests in the East Coast (Halifax NS. Canada).

But even had I never been in the practice, and I have a permanent misshape in my right hand as testament to my love and participation, my opinions would still stand.

And yes, I've watched virtually every Fedor fight. I've been following MMA even before the term was popularized as the norm.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

HeelHooker said:


> Head and foot movement.


Fedor's head movement is actually pretty good, his footwork when striking might not be awesome but once he gets his hands going he throws some nice left/right hook combos. 

I never did say Fedor had top level striking, my point is his striking is way better then Kimbo's.



> You're not arguing that the HW divisions of the world have comparable striking talent to the UFC's LHW division are you?


Of course not, 205 is where Machida and Silva are... the 2 best strikers in MMA. 

Where did the comparison to LHW come from anyways??

All im saying is Kimbo's standup is weak and unless he's beating up Old Man Abbott he looks horrible.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

rygu said:


> Fedor's head movement is actually pretty good, his footwork when striking might not be awesome but once he gets his hands going he throws some nice left/right hook combos.
> 
> I never did say Fedor had top level striking, my point is his striking is way better then Kimbo's.
> 
> ...


Well, rygu, I think it's fair to conclude that we'll agree to disagree.

I think Fedor not being knocked out at heavyweight is more testament to the slowness of HWs than Fedor's head and foot movement.

Honestly, I have not seen any angles, premeditated timing of strikes and bops and weaves from Fedor that made me go woah! Not ever. I have seen really slow HWs fighting against Fedor and getting KOed, however.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

joshua7789 said:


> I get that a lot of people dont like frank mir, but he does know his shit when it comes to mma. His commentary is pretty solid when it comes to facts and his generally comes to fight with a very solid gameplan. You saying that frank mir doesnt know his shit makes it pretty obvious that you dont care for the guy and dont actually care about his technical knowledge.


There's a difference between his good commentary on WEC and this, however.


On the WEC, he's not incentivized to beef himself up by talking about how only the likes of the ferocious Brian Bowles could beat him and that if he could beat the great Tank Abbott slaying Mir, Bowles must surely be able to beat Fedor. 


Frank Mir has an ego. I don't know why he has an ego or whatever justified it, but he has one. His ego was bruised by being beaten by Brock Lesnar. Now he's using whatever excuse he has to pull himself back up. 

The excuse this time is that Fedor isn't in the UFC, so he doesn't have to currently worry about that particular fighter facing him off and showing him up again.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

I personally thought fedors striking was phenomenal? He's fast, accurate, hits like a truck and he uses good head work.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

HeelHooker said:


> Head and foot movement.
> 
> When people strike with Kimbo, they're not distracted by his takedown and ground game, Fedor's ground game nullifies a lot of heavyweight stand up--albeit the slowest and most predictable stand up in MMA.
> 
> You're not arguing that the HW divisions of the world have comparable striking talent to the UFC's LHW division are you?


Lol Kimbo has better striking, thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Like you cant possibly believe that. Have you ever seen a fight where Fedor lost on the feet. He is a damn good striker and always outstrikes his opponents when beforehand everyone talks about how they will have the advantage standing. His striking is different from everyone elses and its damn good. His ground game is totally different to, thats why nobody is trually prepared for a fight with him and end up getting overwhelmed standing or on the ground.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

steveo412 said:


> Lol Kimbo has better striking, thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Like you cant possibly believe that. Have you ever seen a fight where Fedor lost on the feet. He is a damn good striker and always outstrikes his opponents when beforehand everyone talks about how they will have the advantage standing. His striking is different from everyone elses and its damn good. His ground game is totally different to, thats why nobody is trually prepared for a fight with him and end up getting overwhelmed standing or on the ground.



I agree with the kimbo thing being pretty stupid, fedor doesnt have bad striking by any stretch of the imagination. I think a guy with really good hands can knock him out (see the first part of the arlovski/fedor fight), but a mediocre boxer like kimbo is going to stand right in front of him and get bullied into a huge right hand.


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## Ai3 (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks for the youtube link mate. I herd a little bit of this interview somewhere else. 

I really don't think you can be called the best in the world when you havn't beaten the best in the world. To be the best you must beat the best! He hasn't done that, so in my mind he is not even ranked.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

Ai3 said:


> Thanks for the youtube link mate. I herd a little bit of this interview somewhere else.
> 
> I really don't think you can be called the best in the world when you havn't beaten the best in the world. To be the best you must beat the best! He hasn't done that, so in my mind he is not even ranked.


wat, are you talking about fedor or brock or who...?


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## Ai3 (Aug 25, 2009)

HexRei said:


> wat, are you talking about fedor or brock or who...?


Sorry mate i am talking a about Fedor. 

As much as i want to see Brock beaten i still don't think even Fedor could do it.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Ai3 said:


> Thanks for the youtube link mate. I herd a little bit of this interview somewhere else.
> 
> I really don't think you can be called the best in the world when you havn't beaten the best in the world. To be the best you must beat the best! He hasn't done that, *so in my mind he is not even ranked.*


Your mind works in an odd way.

If you think Brock would beat Fedor then that's just your opinion, everyone has one.

For you to say, however, that Fedor isn't ranked........is just plain retarded.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

And of course, you're only the best when Dana White says so.


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## Ai3 (Aug 25, 2009)

rygu said:


> Your mind works in an odd way.
> 
> If you think Brock would beat Fedor then that's just your opinion, everyone has one.
> 
> For you to say, however, that Fedor isn't ranked........is just plain retarded.


I am not saying that he is bad.

How can you say that he is the best in the world?
He hasn't had a fight in the UFC. When he was given the opportunity to prove himself as the best fighter in the world and fight in the UFC he turned it down. To a deal that was obviously better than anything another organization will pay him.

Now as a fighter all you want to do it prove yourself. Prove that you are better than somebody. When you are at his level you want to prove that you ARE the best in the world...... How do you do this? 
You beat the best in the world...

Thats what i dont get. Like now you look at Anderson Silva. He has dominated the Middleweight class and then took the step into Light Heavyweight, and now thinking about going to Heavyweight?
Now that is what a fighter should do. Always looking to that next step. That next challenge.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

Ai3 said:


> I am not saying that he is bad.
> 
> How can you say that he is the best in the world?
> He hasn't had a fight in the UFC. When he was given the opportunity to prove himself as the best fighter in the world and fight in the UFC he turned it down. To a deal that was obviously better than anything another organization will pay him.


Oh wow...

Where to begin?

The UFC's heavyweight division was a joke a few years ago and even today, it's not that much better than Strikeforce's, if at all. 

As for being given the opportunity, you're not thinking correctly. He was given an offer, in business people do that, if the offer didn't involve what his contract could legally allow him to do, well, guess what? He can't take the offer.

It just so happened that Fedor had a LEGAL obligation to fight for who M-1 wanted him to. You know what it would have meant if he went against that? No fighting at all. Except for in a court-room. 


In any case, I think Overeem, Rogers, and Fabricio are all better fighters than the UFC's number one guy anyways. So there.


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## FredFish1 (Apr 22, 2007)

Is it just me, or is the forum getting more full of trolls? Either that or people voicing opinions with no factual reasoning or basis.

I'm all for the discussion and hearing different views, as it not only broadens my knowledge, but gives me a new perspective and things to think about. Hence why I love this forum. People debating Fedor not being #1. Ok fair enough, you provided your opinions and I respectfully disagree. But someone argueing that Fedor isn't even ranked. That is just sad....

+ rep scicillian (I know I spelt that wrong) for being the first guy to say exactly what popped in to my head. Frank Mir is just spinning it in his usual arrogant way to make it seem like the only person who can beat him is Brock. The number one heavyweight. Ya right... Pretty sure Vera would KO Fedor as well man...


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> Honestly, I have not seen any angles, premeditated timing of strikes and bops and weaves from Fedor that made me go woah! Not ever. I have seen really slow HWs fighting against Fedor and getting KOed, however.


I dig the way you present your arguments my man. I've not really disagreed or agreed with much in this thread so far as I don't have too much experience with Fedor fights. However, I do disagree with this statement. It was a short while back we analyzed the Arlovskis rubbish twin brother vs Fedor fight in a thread on this very forum. Lots of slow-mo gifs and a very interesting discussion if I recall. It was difficult to spot the nuances of Fedors striking when watching real time, but once I had a chance to examine the timing it was clear that Fedor wasn't getting owned on the feet at all. In fact, the strike that took out the rubbish twin was timed to perfection. Fedor must have had 0.1 seconds to respond to the oncoming flying knee and planted a hook right through the gaping hole. This showed incredible timing. He must have started the move as soon as Twin thought about doing it. I very much doubt any other HW would have reacted so matrix like. So... I do agree that maybe his striking technique isnt the very best in the world, but his timing is off the charts.

I agree with what's been said previous regards Fedor not using classic western boxing, which makes his boxing seem messy to many of us. I'm starting to realize its not the case.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

lol what an about turn. Before the 2nd Brock Fight:

"One of the fighters I really respect as a martial artist and don't think I could beat at this point is Fedor."

"Brock's afraid of me because I kicked his ass in 90 secs"

After the 2nd Brock fight:

"Brock's a great fighter, he can do whatever he wants post fight. He will crush Fedor. Fedor's ducking guys like me, Brock etc."

LMAO ok Frank. Bitter much?


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Liddellianenko said:


> lol what an about turn. Before the 2nd Brock Fight:
> 
> "One of the fighters I really respect as a martial artist and don't think I could beat at this point is Fedor."
> 
> ...


Hehe. But still, we have to cut him some slack I guess. Look at his dumb face. Can anybody suggest to me a more smug face than Frank Mir? He loves himself, we all know this. It shouldn't surprise us that he thinks any mortal man who can beat the Mighty Mir is clearly the best-est fighter in the universe.

Mir is one of those likeable wankers who entertain me rather than annoy ( too much ). If he stopped stroking his ego so profusely I think I would find him boring. It's like Brock becoming respectful and sweet. Very nice from a Christian perspective... but not quite as entertaining.


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## Halebop (Oct 10, 2006)

Hi, I share the crown with another member (still open for more) as MMAForum's Biggest Brock Nuthugger and I voice that the tone of this thread sucks. Its way too divisive. Fans of Brock, Fedor, or both are going to get one thing out of this thread: pissed off. 

What happened to "I think Brock would beat Fedor, I might be wrong because Fedor is a legend" ?

Or

"I think Fedor would demolish Brock because he's a legend but I have to admit Brock makes me nervous?"

Instead each post is F*ck one or the other, both of them, Mir too, and the the poster I disagree with....Im not even going to check back to see what people post after this post, I might have a bad day.


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## FredFish1 (Apr 22, 2007)

Hey man, F*ck you. And F*ck me to. And F*ck MMA while we'are at it.


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## rickrolled (Feb 3, 2009)

Frank mir is just an a**hole.. 
but i am interested in knowing what is happening with the 6-fight deal. From what i know fedor had a deal with m1 global for 6 fights(reason for not signing with the ufc) and has completed three of those fights (choi,sylvia and arlovski fights). 

Now when he says he signed a mutli-fight deal with strikeforce, does that mean strikeforce-M1 global have reached an agreement to co-promote the remaining 3 fights.. and then fedor is a free agent ?
or if he actually made a deal with strikeforce for a new contract of additional fights? 
could someone please fill me up on these details..

For the record once fedor is officially a "free agent" where he is not contractually obligated to fight for certain organizations, we will know for sure whether fedor is the greatest *(he will step up to face the best, wherever the best may be*) or if he is living on past glory (*if he chooses to make a new deal with strikeforce and continue to fight cans*)

For the record i am a fedor nuthugger, but i do believe this endless speculation of whether he is just resting on his laurels is ruining his reputation as the best ever..


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Quickly losing respect for Mir here and he seems to be towing the UFC company line....

I mean first he comes out and says that fedor is ducking top fighters....(which in a way implies that Frank could potentially beat him as he is a HW in the UFC)

Now the guy that Mir executed probably one of the worse gameplans against and got owned is gonna be the man to crush fedor.......

frank IMO needs to shut up and hope that Randy beats NOG to legitimize franks win over Nog vs. the staph reasoning....

and second he needs to continue to work on his striking with IMO a better camp and a strength and conditioning coach to put mass on while keeping speed and agility if he wants any shot to beat brock again.......

CC420



Liddellianenko said:


> lol what an about turn. Before the 2nd Brock Fight:
> 
> "One of the fighters I really respect as a martial artist and don't think I could beat at this point is Fedor."
> 
> ...





Soojooko said:


> Hehe. But still, we have to cut him some slack I guess. Look at his dumb face. Can anybody suggest to me a more smug face than Frank Mir? He loves himself, we all know this. It shouldn't surprise us that he thinks any mortal man who can beat the Mighty Mir is clearly the best-est fighter in the universe.
> 
> Mir is one of those likeable wankers who entertain me rather than annoy ( too much ). If he stopped stroking his ego so profusely I think I would find him boring. It's like Brock becoming respectful and sweet. Very nice from a Christian perspective... but not quite as entertaining.


 

I think your both right.....:thumb02:

CC420


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> Yes, Kimbo is a better striker than Fedor too.
> 
> Fedor hits hard but he's a terrible striker. If he clips a fool, he'll knock out a fool but he's got horrendous head and foot movement and swings so wildly that he could only get away with opening himself so much against HWs like Tim Sylvia and the collection of torpid size-show-freaks he's put exhibition matches against in the past.
> 
> ...


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

rickrolled said:


> Frank mir is just an a**hole..
> but i am interested in knowing what is happening with the 6-fight deal. From what i know fedor had a deal with m1 global for 6 fights(reason for not signing with the ufc) and has completed three of those fights (choi,sylvia and arlovski fights).
> 
> Now when he says he signed a mutli-fight deal with strikeforce, does that mean strikeforce-M1 global have reached an agreement to co-promote the remaining 3 fights.. and then fedor is a free agent ?
> ...


 
So your saying that you expect Fedor to be a free agent in 3 fights and then leave Mob-1 global to fight the best in the UFC.......

Yeah I dont see that happening.....I think your post was great I just dont see him doing it.....

CC420


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## rickrolled (Feb 3, 2009)

well im not sure how it exactly works with the contract but i just want fedor to fight the best so we can know... because right now all we are doing is speculating.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

rickrolled said:


> well im not sure how it exactly works with the contract but i just want fedor to fight the best so we can know... because right now all we are doing is speculating.


 
its annoying as piss...... its been debated on this forum beyond anything else I think......

Whatever happens happens....


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## Sicilian_Esq (Sep 7, 2008)

rickrolled said:


> well im not sure how it exactly works with the contract but i just want fedor to fight the best so we can know... because right now all we are doing is speculating.


Supposedly, Fedor owns shares in M-1 global. He'll never leave it.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

CornbreadBB said:


> I no longer like Mir. Have him fight a healthy Nog after he beats Randy, you were lucky the 1st time around with Nog good sir.


I agree, I think Nog would definitely win the second time around.



HeelHooker said:


> Guess what, I actually believe it too.
> 
> I honestly think the Fedor thing went a little too far at one point and a lot of fans are now catching on to what catching Arlovski with a punch after he's outscored you in the fight or failing to finish Noguiera three times when Mir did it with relative ease in one fight or winning a Bisping-like gift decision against Arona when Arona has clearly out-grappled you really means.
> 
> ...



I believe that Fedor is still a very good fighter, we just wont be able to see to what extent until he fights top fighters on a consistent basis.


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

I seriously can't believe that some people honestly think Brett Rogers would beat Frank Mir and Brock Lesnar. Watch the James fight, Thompson took him down easily both times he tried and Thompson sucks at wrestling. What do you think a good grappler would do to him? Brett would be an average HW in the UFC.

Look, I realize Fedor has to fight somebody, but don't make it seem like Brett Rogers is some kind of world beater. He hasn't beaten anyone except for AA. People like to talk about AA's striking like it's top notch but it really wasn't in the Rogers fight. Maybe he just had an off night. Top notch strikers don't keep their hands down, chin out and move straight back. He did all those things against Brett which is why he got KTFO in like 10 seconds. I mean, those are things you learn on the first day of boxing lessons. 

On topic: I disagree with Mir saying that Brock would crush Fedor. Could Brock win? Maybe, but Fedor has far more tools in his box. Fedor just needs a fight or 2 in the cage to get acclimated and honestly I've always though that Fedor's style is better suited to the cage anyway.


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## giga191 (Jul 13, 2009)

coldcall420 said:


> Now the guy that Mir executed probably one of the worse gameplans against and got owned is gonna be the man to crush fedor.......
> 
> frank IMO needs to shut up and hope that Randy beats NOG to legitimize franks win over Nog vs. the staph reasoning....
> 
> and second he needs to continue to work on his striking with IMO a better camp and a strength and conditioning coach to put mass on while keeping speed and agility if he wants any shot to beat brock again.......


That gameplan really was atrocious and it's not exactly hard to see why. Mir could have beat him standing and indeed stated that that's what he wanted to do. Given this and that he soon learned that Brock wanted him on the ground you would have thought that he'd stopped giving him his leg for easy take downs and kept his distance more.

I think Fedor could beat him through striking. He has good enough wrestling to avoid take downs and perhaps get off the his back (as Couture did without too much difficulty) and I really can't see him giving up his legs like Mir did.


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## lpbigd4444 (Oct 1, 2008)

HeelHooker said:


> Guess what, I actually believe it too.
> 
> I honestly think the Fedor thing went a little too far at one point and a lot of fans are now catching on to what catching Arlovski with a punch after he's outscored you in the fight or failing to finish Noguiera three times when Mir did it with relative ease in one fight or winning a Bisping-like gift decision against Arona when Arona has clearly out-grappled you really means.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Perfectly put. I am a big Lesnar fan so people think im biased but I cant see Fedor beating him and I think some of the other top guys in the ufc could give him real trouble. One thing i always liked abour Mir is his interviews because he always has intelligent things to say and even if u disagree with him u can respect his opinion because of the way he presents it.


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

lpbigd4444 said:


> Exactly. Perfectly put. I am a big Lesnar fan so people think im biased but I cant see Fedor beating him and I think some of the other top guys in the ufc could give him real trouble. One thing i always liked abour Mir is his interviews because he always has intelligent things to say and even if u disagree with him u can respect his opinion because of the way he presents it.


I believe that Fedor has the tools to defeat Lesnar, it would definitely be no walk in the park and Lesnar also has the tools to defeat Fedor.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

Tomislav III said:


> In any case, I think Overeem, Rogers, and Fabricio are all better fighters than the UFC's number one guy anyways. So there.


Even though Werdum only went 2-2 in UFC and they never resigned him cause he wasnt good enough for the money he wanted.


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## lpbigd4444 (Oct 1, 2008)

HitOrGetHit said:


> I believe that Fedor has the tools to defeat Lesnar, it would definitely be no walk in the park and Lesnar also has the tools to defeat Fedor.





steveo412 said:


> Even though Werdum only went 2-2 in UFC and they never resigned him cause he wasnt good enough for the money he wanted.


I think Fedor could beat Lesnar but I dont think it would happen and as far as Strikeforce HWs vs UFC HWs its not even close. Rogers is not stuffing a Lesnar, Carwin, or Velazquez takedown and he isn surviving on the ground. He also would get mauled on the feet by Kongo for sure. Werdum got KOed by Dos Santos and got cut and Overeem is a good fighter i would like to see in the ufc but he wouldn be the elite. So in short I certainly agree with steveo's skepticism


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

lpbigd4444 said:


> I think Fedor could beat Lesnar but I dont think it would happen and as far as Strikeforce HWs vs UFC HWs its not even close. Rogers is not stuffing a Lesnar, Carwin, or Velazquez takedown and he isn surviving on the ground. He also would get mauled on the feet by Kongo for sure. Werdum got KOed by Dos Santos and got cut and Overeem is a good fighter i would like to see in the ufc but he wouldn be the elite. So in short I certainly agree with steveo's skepticism


i think kongo would demolish rogers!


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

giga191 said:


> That gameplan really was atrocious and it's not exactly hard to see why. Mir could have beat him standing and indeed stated that that's what he wanted to do. *Given this and that he soon learned that Brock wanted him on the ground you would have thought that he'd stopped giving him his leg for easy take downs and kept his distance more.*
> 
> I think Fedor could beat him through striking. He has good enough wrestling to avoid take downs and perhaps get off the his back (as Couture did without too much difficulty) and I really can't see him giving up his legs like Mir did.


 


Dude welcome to the forum and its great to have you here.....

Bro you read my mind with the keeping his distance more, Im shocked Mir wouldnt have known to keep far away prior to ever entering the cage......I was screaming at the T.V.....

Then once he let LesNAR get that wrist....it was over and done...

Thats the only thing that kinda intrests me in seeing Mir vs. LesNAR one more time to see if Frank could bulk up a bit and increase speed and cardio and maybe exchange and stuff some takedowns......

CC420


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

jcal said:


> Frank Mir says Brock will crush Fedor, and talks about his fight with Lesner and his upcoming fight with Kongo Go to MMA LINKER.COM


I would imagine a lot of fighters who once touted Fedor, are now changing there minds, just as mma fans are. Fedor's resume is really not that impressive, once you get past the number and start looking at the opponents.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

HitOrGetHit said:


> i think kongo would demolish rogers!


On the feet probably but even without seeing Rogers ground game I bet it is still better than Kongos though haha, man is he bad down there. Either way Kongo by KO


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## Freiermuth (Nov 19, 2006)

Personally I think Fedor would win but Franks opinion is fair enough since that's exactly what happened to him haha.

There is a lot of hate going on around here by some fans which is odd, because Brock/Fedor haven't been trash talking eachother. Pretty sure both would be respectfull before and after if they did fight.


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## kano666 (Nov 2, 2007)

HeelHooker said:


> I'm not contending that Fedor's a good fighter.
> 
> I'm just saying that had Arlovki not been dumb with the attempt at the flying knee, he pretty much would have beat Fedor...as he was outscoring him.
> 
> Machida, given the opportunities Andrei got, would not have decisioned Fedor, he'd have knocked him out.


Dude, your "Arlovski would've won" statement is ridiculous. I agree that Arlovski was out-pointing Fedor at that point in the fight, but Fedor DID IN FACT capitalize on Arlovski's knee attempt (maybe he even left an opening to invite an aggressive attack, it's hard to tell). He also KO'd Arlovski at 3:14 of the first round. Fedor didn't even get out-pointed for a full round, and didn't look like he was in serious trouble of KO or sub - there's no way you can suggest Arlovski would've won a decision when they only fought 3 minutes. There was lots of time left for Fedor to KO Arlovski or take him down and sub him. 

I agree that Machida could outstrike Fedor; however, Fedor's got much more KO power. In an actual fight, I think Fedor would be successful with throws and outclass Machida on the ground. However, that's total speculation on my part.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

marcthegame said:


> I actually give the edge to fedor, yes brock is a yeti but his weapon coming in is the g&p and if randy could avoid it i think a more experience and skills fighter in fedor can do it. Plus fedor better on the ground,wrestling,striking...pretty much everything but power.


Did you just say Fedor has better wrestling skills than Brock? WTF-:confused05:


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Calminian said:


> I would imagine a lot of fighters who once touted Fedor, are now changing there minds, just as mma fans are. Fedor's resume is really not that impressive, once you get past the number and start looking at the opponents.


In the past few years that is very true, if you look down at his last 7 wins they're all pretty much nothing fights against guys he was always going to beat, bar probably Arlovski who still looked good, I do still believe he's way past his best though.

So in his last 7 Fedor's beaten: The over the hill ex-UFC HW champs Arlovski and Sylvia, Hong Man-Choi (all size, very little talent), Matt Lindland (who's he beaten? Miletich, Baroni, Horn, hmm...), Mark Hunt (lost his last 5 fights, says it all), Mark Coleman (Was 41/42 at the time, and although he beat Shogun, he'd done little before then) and Zuluzinho (who's he beaten? Sure he's massive and had a good record, but a very average fighter).

He has beaten Nogueira twice and beat Cro Cop when he was in his prime in PRIDE though, so it's not like he's spent his whole career fighting cans of the sort he's been fighting since 2005. Coleman in 04 was no mug, Babalu's no can and Herring's a very decent fighter. His resumé may not be as packed as a hardcore Fedor fan would like to think it is, but there's no doubting Fedor's fighting ability, he's incredibly talented. He's a fantastic all-round fighter and he's beaten everyone that's been put in front of him, which is all you can really ask. 

As for Mir's claims that Brock would beat Fedor, of course he's going to say that. He just got dominated by the guy, and he'd like to think he'd have a good chance against Fedor himself, so he's making it out like Brock's way better than he actually is. I'd love to see fight, as we all would, but I don't think Brock would 'crush' Fedor at all. I think it would be a very close fight, and could see Fedor beating Brock in the stand-up and also catch him on the ground if given the chance. Would certainly be worth watching though.


----------



## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

yeah fedor is not as good at wrestling as brock!


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

jcal said:


> Did you just say Fedor has better wrestling skills than Brock? WTF-:confused05:


yes i did, he is a 7 time ***** champ


----------



## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

marcthegame said:


> yes i did, he is a 7 time ***** champ


Not trying to diss you bro, but wrestling and ***** are worlds apart. Lesner went 106-5 in his NCAA career. Thats insane at 265LBS.


----------



## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

kano666 said:


> Dude, your "Arlovski would've won" statement is ridiculous. I agree that Arlovski was out-pointing Fedor at that point in the fight, but Fedor DID IN FACT capitalize on Arlovski's knee attempt (maybe he even left an opening to invite an aggressive attack, it's hard to tell). He also KO'd Arlovski at 3:14 of the first round. Fedor didn't even get out-pointed for a full round, and didn't look like he was in serious trouble of KO or sub - there's no way you can suggest Arlovski would've won a decision when they only fought 3 minutes. There was lots of time left for Fedor to KO Arlovski or take him down and sub him.
> 
> I agree that Machida could outstrike Fedor; however, Fedor's got much more KO power. *In an actual fight, I think Fedor would be successful with throws and outclass Machida on the ground.* However, that's total speculation on my part.


Doubt Fedor would ever get lose enough to toss Machida and Lyoto makes people look pretty bad at hitting him....

CC420


----------



## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

jcal said:


> Not trying to diss you bro, but wrestling and ***** are worlds apart. Lesner went 106-5 in his NCAA career. Thats insane at 265LBS.


i might be wrong but i taught ***** was similar to amateur wrestling or judo.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

HitOrGetHit said:


> yeah fedor is not as good at wrestling as brock!


Yah its a good thing he is way better at everything else. NO Heavyweight in MMA is as good at wrestling as Brock.

If ***** is close to anything I would say its close to straight MMA. You strike and do ground work with noo ground strikes I believe just submissions.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Danm2501 said:


> ....He has beaten Nogueira twice and beat Cro Cop when he was in his prime in PRIDE though, so it's not like he's spent his whole career fighting cans of the sort he's been fighting since 2005. Coleman in 04 was no mug, Babalu's no can and Herring's a very decent fighter. His resumé may not be as packed as a hardcore Fedor fan would like to think it is, but there's no doubting Fedor's fighting ability, he's incredibly talented. He's a fantastic all-round fighter and he's beaten everyone that's been put in front of him, which is all you can really ask. ....


I don't think these are cans, but certainly not top tier by today's standards. Their performances as of late prove this. All fighter's in mma continue to get better as technique is such a vital part of the sport. The problem is, some improve faster than others. Cop is still young and still improving. So is Nog. The problem is, other fighters are improving faster. Herring says he has had access to the best training of his life while in the UFC. But he's still not winning. 

the big question is, is Fedor improving as quickly as the pack? There's really no way of telling except for looking at how his opponents recent and past are doing with other fighters. Almost universally, they are losing worse at the hands of other fighters. That's the biggest clue for me that he's overrated. Ducking the UFC didn't help matters either.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> yes i did, he is a 7 time ***** champ


LOL, seriously...Fedor`s no Lesnar when it comes to wrestling at HW, no one is. You can be a 20 time Judo champion and have your butt handed to you in a wrestling match. The dynamics are different between wrestling and *****(which is closer to Judo and easten european folk style wrestling than Greco Roman wrestling -- ie. more Karo than GSP). Of course Lesnar`s a better wrestler. The only thing in contention is who`s the better overall fighter.

Enjoy, Fedor (in blue) Vs. a 22yr old Blagoi-Legend Killer-Ivanov:


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

heelhooker, '=/=` seriously.


But I agree Fedor doesnt have the wrestling of Brock, but I don't think Brcok would beat him. Fedor's BJJ is far too good. I think he'd be able to sweep Brock and put him on his back.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

TraMaI said:


> heelhooker, '=/=` seriously.
> 
> 
> But I agree Fedor doesnt have the wrestling of Brock, but I don't think Brcok would beat him. Fedor's BJJ is far too good. I think he'd be able to sweep Brock and put him on his back.


You mean his *****, I dont even know if he really trains actual JJ.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> yes i did, he is a 7 time ***** champ


I'm not discrediting the level of competition in ***** tournaments, clearly Fedor is an example of just how elite ***** practitioners come. However, as a whole vs whole, the general level of skill in an NCAA Division I standard is very high. Perhaps Fedor met his equal on a few occasions, but "theoretically," Brock met his equal in almost every match. 

I am very aware that I may be blowing smoke out me arse in my understanding of ***** tournaments and their standards of competition, but I do know that in U.S. wrestling, you have a national filter among high school students, then a national filter of Division III talent, a national filter of Division II talent and if you're better then all the athletes in those lower Divisions, you're in the midst of Division I Athletes, even Shane Carwin only made it to Division II. Brock had to be better then hundreds of thousands of wrestlers off-jump just to be in Division I, and Brock didn't just have a winning record in collegiate wrestling, he "DOMINATED." 

7 time ***** champ is great, but I don't know if his competition was quite as extensive as Brock's was.

[tarzan swings across Brock's nuts]


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> heelhooker, '=/=` seriously.
> 
> 
> But I agree Fedor doesnt have the wrestling of Brock, but I don't think Brcok would beat him. Fedor's BJJ is far too good. I think he'd be able to sweep Brock and put him on his back.


I think sweeping Brock was a lot easier when he fought Mir, for the first time, than it`ll ever be again as a result of the outcome of that fight. Initially, the guy seemed in too much of a hurry to finish a match with a thousand little rabbit punches that he amartureshly allowed for more space between himself and Mir, a BJJ speacilist, and so not only allowed Mir hip movement but often left his limbs vulnerable.

If the second encounter is testament to Brock having developed a presence of mind against a BJJ`s tactics then the swivelling of hips and sweeps will be much easier theorized than done- yes, even for Fedor.

Brock is a much more patient and disciplined fighter now.


----------



## lpbigd4444 (Oct 1, 2008)

TraMaI said:


> heelhooker, '=/=` seriously.
> 
> 
> But I agree Fedor doesnt have the wrestling of Brock, but I don't think Brcok would beat him. Fedor's BJJ is far too good. I think he'd be able to sweep Brock and put him on his back.


I dont think his bjj is any better than Mir's in all honesty. Im not sayin Mir is def better but i think any difference between the 2 is negligent


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

Fedor doesnt even practice BJJ. He does *****. He is also IMO has the best submissions out of any HWs. His submission game is leagues better than Mirs. Mir cant pull off an armbar or Kimura nearly as well. Fedor doesnt even really work for submissions he just does them, he like presses the armbar button and it happens just that easy. No way is Mir as good as him on the ground.


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## Freiermuth (Nov 19, 2006)

VolcomX311 said:


> I'm not discrediting the level of competition in ***** tournaments, clearly Fedor is an example of just how elite ***** practitioners come. However, as a whole vs whole, the general level of skill in an NCAA Division I standard is very high. Perhaps Fedor met his equal on a few occasions, but "theoretically," Brock met his equal in almost every match.
> 
> I am very aware that I may be blowing smoke out me arse in my understanding of ***** tournaments and their standards of competition, but I do know that in U.S. wrestling, you have a national filter among high school students, then a national filter of Division III talent, a national filter of Division II talent and if you're better then all the athletes in those lower Divisions, you're in the midst of Division I Athletes, even Shane Carwin only made it to Division II. Brock had to be better then hundreds of thousands of wrestlers off-jump just to be in Division I, and Brock didn't just have a winning record in collegiate wrestling, he "DOMINATED."
> 
> ...


Not sure how competitive the ***** circuit is, but yeah, being NCAA DIV 1 HW champ is awesome and there isn't really any flukes or lucky pins haha.

A lot of good guys in Div II and III though, your school might only be Div II so no matter how good you are, unless you transfer, your not going to compete at Div I....so some guys who already are in their 3rd or 4th year may not want to transfer since by and large, a degree is more important than wrestling so Carwin may have had the opportunity but not the desire.


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## ericr (Sep 13, 2006)

Since Mir is bashing Fedor, they should let Fedor in the cage with him. And since Brock hates him, maybe they can let Brock in the cage at the same time with Fedor to kill Mir. Then Brock and Fedor can go at it.... I can dream can't I ?


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

HeelHooker said:


> I think sweeping Brock was a lot easier when he fought Mir, for the first time, than it`ll ever be again as a result of the outcome of that fight. Initially, the guy seemed in too much of a hurry to finish a match with a thousand little rabbit punches that he amartureshly allowed for more space between himself and Mir, a BJJ speacilist, and so not only allowed Mir hip movement but often left his limbs vulnerable.
> 
> If the second encounter is testament to Brock having developed a presence of mind against a BJJ`s tactics then the swivelling of hips and sweeps will be much easier theorized than done- yes, even for Fedor.
> 
> Brock is a much more patient and disciplined fighter now.


 
I agree with all of this but Brocks ability to control Mir in no way relates to his ability to control Fedor, assuming he were able to even get Fedor on his back......

fedor i totally see being able to sweep brock and i think the gameplan Brock employs would be severely different....

CC420


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

steveo412 said:


> Even though Werdum only went 2-2 in UFC and they never resigned him cause he wasnt good enough for the money he wanted.


Losing to a pretty good AA and a decent dos Santos isn't something to really be to ashamed of, if you're Werdum. 

Werdum is a good fighter. Not the greatest, but a good fighter nonetheless. He was able to last with Big Nog, he's beaten GG twice, and he even beat A. Emelianenko - who is a damn good fighter in his own right.


Werdum isn't just some punk, man. He's a dangerous fighter.



Danm2501 said:


> In the past few years that is very true, if you look down at his last 7 wins they're all pretty much nothing fights against guys he was always going to beat, bar probably Arlovski who still looked good, I do still believe he's way past his best though.


People were saying similar things about A. Silva a few months ago. When you're on a different level from every fighter of course you make it look easy and everybody else looks like a can in comparison.

And as for HMC, I'm so sick of people dissing him. HMC was a world class kick boxer at one point.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

coldcall420 said:


> I agree with all of this but Brocks ability to control Mir in no way relates to his ability to control Fedor, assuming he were able to even get Fedor on his back......
> 
> fedor i totally see being able to sweep brock and i think the gameplan Brock employs would be severely different....
> 
> CC420


Seriously folks< I dont think anybodys gonna sweep Brock anytime soon (his base is to good and hes got too much weight) I think Fedor would mostly have to use his superior striking.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

jcal said:


> Seriously folks< I dont think anybodys gonna sweep Brock anytime soon (his base is to good and hes got too much weight) I think Fedor would mostly have to use his superior striking.


Hmm. Striking which evidently is not quite as good a Mir's looking at the Nog matchups.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

Tomislav III said:


> Losing to a pretty good AA and a decent dos Santos isn't something to really be to ashamed of, if you're Werdum.
> 
> Werdum is a good fighter. Not the greatest, but a good fighter nonetheless. He was able to last with Big Nog, he's beaten GG twice, and he even beat A. Emelianenko - who is a damn good fighter in his own right.
> 
> ...


I never said he was bad I know who he has beat and that he is a good fighter. The comment was that the strikeforce division was better or at par with UFC and he was named as a reason why. Having a guy who wasnt really that impressive in UFC in your division cant really mean its better. I think Werdum is better than Overeem and will beat him again and Rogers is still a question mark for me, but he has got some power but I dunno how he would do against top fighters with chin.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

jcal said:


> Seriously folks< I dont think anybodys gonna sweep Brock anytime soon (his base is to good and hes got too much weight) I think Fedor would mostly have to use his superior striking.


Again with his base. I don't know if you're referring to his physical base or his base in wrestling, but his physical base is not very good.


The man is very top heavy. He's the chicken of MMA.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

jcal said:


> Seriously folks< I dont think anybodys gonna sweep Brock anytime soon (his base is to good and hes got too much weight) I think Fedor would mostly have to use his superior striking.


I think he could sub him from the bottom, I mean he does it to everyone so easily. lesnar would be tougher I think but I still thing Fedor could armbar him.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

HeelHooker said:


> LOL, seriously...Fedor`s no Lesnar when it comes to wrestling at HW, no one is. You can be a 20 time Judo champion and have your butt handed to you in a wrestling match. The dynamics are different between wrestling and *****(which is closer to Judo and easten european folk style wrestling than Greco Roman wrestling -- ie. more Karo than GSP). Of course Lesnar`s a better wrestler. The only thing in contention is who`s the better overall fighter.
> 
> Enjoy, Fedor (in blue) Vs. a 22yr old Blagoi-Legend Killer-Ivanov:


***** is different from wrestling. Before he lost recently, he won just about every match he had in *****. Besides, he spent a good time out of the gym on a movie set, or so I'm told.


As for wrestling, ok. Then how was Emelianenko able to beat olympic level wrestlers when Brock had to struggle for half of his college career just to make it to division I?


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Tomislav III said:


> ***** is different from wrestling. Before he lost recently, he won just about every match he had in *****. Besides, he spent a good time out of the gym on a movie set, or so I'm told.
> 
> 
> As for wrestling, ok. Then how was Emelianenko able to beat olympic level wrestlers when Brock had to struggle for half of his college career just to make it to division I?


I respect your opinion on Fedor being the best, but Brock struggling during his college career? HS record, 33-0, NJCAA, 56-3, recruited to University Minnesota, 1st year 24-1, NCAA semi-finals, 2nd year, 26-1, NCAA Champion. That's a collegiate record of 106-5, an NCAA record of 50-2 and a total record including HS of 139-5. 

We must have a different definition of struggling.


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## GarethUFC (Sep 12, 2007)

I think fedor will be in the ufc within 2 years...


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

Tomislav III said:


> Again with his base. I don't know if you're referring to his physical base or his base in wrestling, but his physical base is not very good.
> 
> 
> The man is very top heavy. He's the chicken of MMA.


I was referring to his wrestling base of course! As for his legs LOL! ive never really noticed but im sure i will now.


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## ZENKI1 (Apr 19, 2009)

Ai3 said:


> I am not saying that he is bad.
> 
> How can you say that he is the best in the world?
> He hasn't had a fight in the UFC. When he was given the opportunity to prove himself as the best fighter in the world and fight in the UFC he turned it down. To a deal that was obviously better than anything another organization will pay him.
> ...


Obviously your new to the sport of mma and live under a ufc rock.. Do some homework in the history of mma . Look at all orgs who was where and who beat who and in what time frame.. Then my friend u will retract your statement and rephrase it.. Its true to be the best u have to beat the best. Brock hasnt done that yet. Fedor has..


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Why is it if anyone doubts Fedor is the best they accuse you of being new. "er, what, Fedor is not, er, ye you your NEEEW!" :confused05: Is this the really the only way Fedor can be defended. It's so emotional, and so silly. If he really was the best, why all the emotion? Why not just explain why? 

The fact is, all of Fedor's opponents have fared worse in the UFC and elsewhere than against Fedor. Look at all the fighter that have finished Babalu, Nog and Crocop. You can still think he's the best, but a little logic should tell you it's not a clear cut case. Fedor has never beaten anyone that Mir or even Gabriel Gonzaga couldn't beat. You want to oogle about that resume go ahead, but I'm not impressed.

Lesnar has fought two fighters that are better than every one of Fedor's opponents and looked very impressive doing it. Sorry, facts are stubborn things.

So go ahead and pick a fight every time someone doubts Fedor. It's not going to change the facts and it's not going to remove doubts. The only thing removing doubts is Fedor entering the UFC and he refuses. Instead he takes on Werdum.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

Tomislav III said:


> ***** is different from wrestling. Before he lost recently, he won just about every match he had in *****. Besides, he spent a good time out of the gym on a movie set, or so I'm told.
> 
> 
> As for wrestling, ok. Then how was Emelianenko able to beat olympic level wrestlers when Brock had to struggle for half of his college career just to make it to division I?


I was going to respond to your post but this guy(below) put out Lesnar's resume quite well.

Fedor wins belts because he is generally more comprehensive in his MMA skills than the new comer,Lesnar, but Lesnar wins fights solely because of his wrestling. He is that good with wrestling alone, now try thinking about him with BJJ as well in a year's time if he's making good fighters look bad with half their tools.



VolcomX311 said:


> I respect your opinion on Fedor being the best, but Brock struggling during his college career? HS record, 33-0, NJCAA, 56-3, recruited to University Minnesota, 1st year 24-1, NCAA semi-finals, 2nd year, 26-1, NCAA Champion. That's a collegiate record of 106-5, an NCAA record of 50-2 and a total record including HS of 139-5.
> 
> We must have a different definition of struggling.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> I respect your opinion on Fedor being the best, but Brock struggling during his college career? HS record, 33-0, NJCAA, 56-3, recruited to University Minnesota, 1st year 24-1, NCAA semi-finals, 2nd year, 26-1, NCAA Champion. That's a collegiate record of 106-5, an NCAA record of 50-2 and a total record including HS of 139-5.
> 
> We must have a different definition of struggling.


So why wasn't he picked up on a scholarship after high school? You would think that with his size he wouldn't have flown so far under the radar. 

Why didn't he compete in olympic wrestling after? 


This idea that Brock is the greatest wrestler to ever grace the sport of MMA is nuts, especially when you have guys that have placed in olympic wrestling. 



Right now, I'm contending not that Brock doesn't know how to wrestle, but that he struggled early on and was never good enough to have been invested in for four years by a division I college wrestling team. 



You would surely expect that if you were right about Brock being such a great wrestler, recruiters would have picked him up earlier, wouldn't you?


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

Tomislav III said:


> Losing to a pretty good AA and a decent dos Santos isn't something to really be to ashamed of, if you're Werdum.
> 
> Werdum is a good fighter. Not the greatest, but a good fighter nonetheless. He was able to last with Big Nog, he's beaten GG twice, and he even beat A. Emelianenko - who is a damn good fighter in his own right.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

jcal said:


> Tomislav III said:
> 
> 
> > Losing to a pretty good AA and a decent dos Santos isn't something to really be to ashamed of, if you're Werdum.
> ...


----------



## evilstevie (Apr 19, 2009)

I'm not going to waste too much breath on someone who for some reason is arguing whether an NCAA div I champion wrestler was a good wrestler in high school. (?) Whether he was or was not is not relevant. When he was 22 YO or so, he was the best in the nation, and he's certainly a much better wrestler than Fedor. Everyone knows this.

I predict that Lesnar would smash and smother Fedor, and even Fedor knows this, which is why he signed with some 4th rate MMA organization rather than the UFC.

Neg away Fedor nut riders - I could care less.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

Amun said:


> So by your definition, any wrestler who is not invested in for four years by a division I college is struggling?


Well... Yes, actually. If I were a wrestler and expected to do so in college with a fairly good record and that size I would think anything other than at least a partial scholarship to a respected division I team would have been failure on my part. 


Wouldn't you have? I think Brock probably did, if wrestling is what he had his hopes on.


Brock was kind of born with a disposition to wrestle, everyone is right about that. So it's really, really suspicious when someone who apparently is so good at doing something he was built for doesn't cut it on the very basic standards that teams put in place while scouting. Aren't you the least bit curious on that? 


Now, to be honest, here are my two hunches of what probably happened.

My first guess is that Brock really wasn't that great of a wrestler. He was good enough to compete in a smaller market in rural South Dakota, but he wasn't anything spectacular to look at as a scout. Looking at his high school pictures, I could believe that; he really didn't look like anything more than the fat kid on the team. Thinking to himself that he needed to do something after his first two years of college, I think Brock probably juiced up on roids or hgh or something as evidenced by the mysterious muscle tone he gained during his sophomore year. Of course, even a really fat dope can be good at MMA with the help of the juice, you know.

My second guess goes more to Brock's character and intelligence. I'll assume that Brock was a really good wrestler, not great enough to compete olympically, but good. The problem comes in when you actually look at Brock the person. He got into a bit of trouble as a kid, apparently didn't get the best grades, and was pretty much your typical high school kid who thinks he's above it all and ends up having to do community college and sit in his little town for the rest of his life. My assumption here is that the colleges would have picked him up if it weren't for his notoriously bad temper and shortage on the brain power. 


Or who knows? It could have been both.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Tomislav III said:


> Well... Yes, actually. If I were a wrestler and expected to do so in college with a fairly good record and that size I would think anything other than at least a partial scholarship to a respected division I team would have been failure on my part.
> 
> 
> Wouldn't you have? I think Brock probably did, if wrestling is what he had his hopes on.
> ...



This is just stupid, seriously. How in the hell can you sit here and say that an all american, national champion wrestler isnt a good wrestler? Ive seen some people say some very ignorant things based upon there dislike for someone, but this has got to be top five.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

You do realize they do drug testing in college wrestling and brock never tested positive. 

To say brock is not a good wrestler is pretty much retarded. Like just straight up one of the dumbest things I have heard on here. He probably could have gone to the Olympics, but guess what an Olympic wrestler doesnt make sh-t compared to a WWE wreslter.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

steveo412 said:


> You do realize they do drug testing in college wrestling and brock never tested positive.
> 
> To say brock is not a good wrestler is pretty much retarded. Like just straight up one of the dumbest things I have heard on here. He probably could have gone to the Olympics, but guess what an Olympic wrestler doesnt make sh-t compared to a WWE wreslter.


Minus the WWE reference, dude I'm so with you.

The reason I've grown to like Brock so much is because he's going through what Fedorbots put A. Silva fans through and what they'll inevitably put Machida fans through.

They really do believe that Fedor is the second coming...that he's the best striker in MMA (Silva/Machida), that he's the best wrestler in MMA(Lesner/St Pierre) and the best BJJ fighter too (Maia).

Fedor is an impressive balancing act of many fields in MMA but he's the best at nothing.

Time to reattach the Fedor kite back to earth...and particularly Lesnar, A.Silva and Machida have done it pretty well in their recent fights. 

What "can" will Fedor beat at Strikeforce to counter their claims to be the best *TODAY?*


----------



## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

HeelHooker said:


> Minus the WWE reference, dude I'm so with you.
> 
> The reason I've grown to like Brock so much is because he's going through what Fedorbots put A. Silva fans through and what they'll inevitably put Machida fans through.
> 
> ...


The WWE reference is 100% right though, It was the place that had the most money to be made. MMA wasnt as good then and Olympics doesnt really pay.

You should also mention he is better on the ground than Silva and Machida. He is better standing than Maia Lesnar and GSP He is the most well rounded fighter in MMA.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

steveo412 said:


> The WWE reference is 100% right though, It was the place that had the most money to be made. MMA wasnt as good then and Olympics doesnt really pay.
> 
> You should also mention he is better on the ground than Silva and Machida. He is better standing than Maia Lesnar and GSP *He is the most well rounded fighter in MMA.*



No doubt @ HW, but in MMA...well, that's up in the air.

But yes, he's better than Silva/Machida on the ground and better than Lesnar standing.

However, Nate Marquardt is a more technically well rounded fighter than Silva but he has a snowball's chance of beating him. 

Brock, Silva and Machida each have single Aces in the hole but those aces beat all other combinations that all else hold.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

HeelHooker said:


> No doubt @ HW, but in MMA...well, that's up in the air.
> 
> But yes, he's better than Silva/Machida on the ground and better than Lesnar standing.
> 
> ...


I cant name another fighter that is as well rounded as Fedor. The closest being Machida but from what I have seen his Ground game is good but not nearly as dangerous as Fedor while Fedor standing may not be as technical he is just as dangerous to end the fight there.

Nate Marquardt isnt as good as Fedor at anything so thats not really a good comparison. He is well rounded but nothing compared to Fedors skill level.

They have the ace in the hole for sure. I wouldnt really put Brock with them because he is still green in a lot of ways and isnt nearly as well rounded as Silva or Machida. I still think Fedor wouldnt have much trouble submitting him, he is way better than Mir off his back. Where they have an ace he has the whole deck. He is dangerous standing, on the bottom or on the top.


----------



## giga191 (Jul 13, 2009)

I don't think Fedor would get stuck in half guard like Mir did. Mir made Brock's wrestling and size look like a bigger factor than they should have been.

Listen to what Brock says at around 1:10





Mir didn't look like he neutralized Brock's ground and pound as well as Randy did either. Perhaps Brock's title defence said more about the poor tactics of Mir than Brock's ability to dominate people. I don't think Mir deserves a rubber match until after he proves himself again against at least 3 decent HWs, I'd rather see a rematch between Couture and Brock first. That is, assuming Shane Carwin doesn't decimate Brock.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

Amun said:


> ... and lest we not forget that Brock has a much higher chance of getting decimated than Fedor on account of Brock actually having to fight good opponents as often as he does :thumb02:
> 
> If Brock defeats Carwin he'll have nearly as many big wins in his 1.5 year career as Fedor has had in his 10 year career.


Lol cause Herring and Mir are such awesome fighters. :sarcastic12: IMO Mir is one of the most overated fighters out there. Randy is his best win and lets face it the guys a dinosaur. Carwin would be a solid win but he is also still pretty knew like he hasnt even been to the second round of a fight.


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## Guy (Feb 17, 2008)

Amun said:


> Couture, another huge win. Herring, who is considered by many to be in Fedor's top five wins is also now in Brocks.


No..? lol. The reason why people give the Herring win so much credit is because Fedor was unknown at the time while Herring was more respected and a better fighter than he was now. Fedor didn't lay on him for 15 minutes he decimated Herring, not even giving him a chance to land any offense at all.



> Throw Brock Dos Santos, Velesquez, Nog and Crocop after Carwin and he's already surpassed Fedors accomplishments.


It's funny how when Shogun and Rashad beat Liddell it was because "Chuck Liddell was way out of his prime and has evidently slowed down" while people still diss Big Nog and Crocop. Those guys were amazing back in the day, but now their bodies just can't take the punishment and they are not the fighters they once were...Liddell gets a free pass though right? It's because fighters like Nog and Crocop are supposed to be injury free and now because they have been on a decline they're trash....right?


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## HitOrGetHit (Jun 29, 2009)

Amun said:


> Your opinion of Frank, who I believe was the 3rd or 4th highest ranked heavyweight before Brock clobbered him is simply that, an opinion.
> 
> Couture, another huge win. Herring, who is considered by many to be in Fedor's top five wins is also now in Brocks. Honestly at this rate it won't be long before Brock has a larger breadth of quality wins than Fedor assuming he keeps on winning (and of course that's a big assumption) considering most of the talent is in the UFC. Throw Brock Dos Santos, Velesquez, Nog and Crocop after Carwin and he's already surpassed Fedors accomplishments.


i think why people feel that Mir is overrated, but that doesnt mean he isnt a good fighter. i just think his stock shot way up after the first Brock fight and fighting a sick Nog. And never settled back down. I personally dont like Mir but I do believe he is a very solid fighter.

Now as for Herring, I think he is one of the most overrated fighters in mma. Not that he is a horrible fighter, he is good. But I dont ever see him being anything more than a mere gatekeeper in the UFC HW division.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)




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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Guy said:


> .....Big Nog and Crocop. Those guys were amazing back in the day......


Exactly because competition sucked back in the day! They're not worse fighters now, it's just that the HW division is starting to have some talent from true HW's. And they're still young. Liddell is pushing 40. These guys are younger than Carwin.


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## RWMenace (Aug 10, 2008)

Calminian said:


> Exactly because competition sucked back in the day! They're not worse fighters now, it's just that the HW division is starting to have some talent from true HW's. And they're still young. Liddell is pushing 40. These guys are younger than Carwin.


Show me proof that competition sucked 'back in the day'.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

RWMenace said:


> Show me proof that competition sucked 'back in the day'.


Okay, you asked for it. I'll get more pics later.


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## Freiermuth (Nov 19, 2006)

Amun said:


> ... and lest we not forget that Brock has a much higher chance of getting decimated than Fedor on account of Brock actually having to fight good opponents as often as he does :thumb02:
> 
> If Brock defeats Carwin and perhaps a few others he'll have nearly as many big wins in his 1.5 year career as Fedor has had in his 10 year career.


Brocks already been fighting MMA for 2 years....after he beats Carwin and continues to win 2 more it will be at least 3 years. Still would be an awesome accomplishment but your post implies, to me at least, a much shorter time-frame and a lot of if's (big if's on winning 3 vs tough fighters, plus scheduling and injury possibilities).


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

VolcomX311 said:


>


Thats great man, keep posting !:thumbsup:


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

jcal said:


> Thats great man, keep posting !:thumbsup:


 
Phenominal Work....repped....:thumbsup:


CC420


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

Amun said:


> In regards to Herring, Brock met him in third MMA match ever during his first year in the sport. I'd say his victory over him, in which he dominated every moment of the fight was pretty damn impressive considering.
> 
> Nog and Crocop: Lesnar would smash either one of them now or in their prime. Both are smaller heavies that don't match up well with him. Crocop can't do much on his back (and rest assured with Brock he'll be there fast) and with Nog the fight goes wherever Brock wants. GNP death either way - though Brock could take Nog on his feet as well.


That's really probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.


Big Nog's ability to pull submissions from absolutely nowhere at any position on the ground while being able to take about as much punishment as anyone is capable of dishing out combines with a great match-up. 

As does Cro-Cop when he's on his game - he has amazing take down defense and those are legs I am not willing to sacrifice being kneed by in the clinch. 



Come on, now. At least try to be objective.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

steveo412 said:


> I never said he was bad I know who he has beat and that he is a good fighter. The comment was that the strikeforce division was better or at par with UFC and he was named as a reason why. Having a guy who wasnt really that impressive in UFC in your division cant really mean its better. I think Werdum is better than Overeem and will beat him again and Rogers is still a question mark for me, but he has got some power but I dunno how he would do against top fighters with chin.


Well, I guess I just have to respectfully disagree then. I simply don't see the talent disparity between Strikeforce and the UFC as far as the heavyweight division goes.


Edit: Ah damn it, guys. Sorry again. I forgot about the double posting.




joshua7789 said:


> This is just stupid, seriously. How in the hell can you sit here and say that an all american, national champion wrestler isnt a good wrestler? Ive seen some people say some very ignorant things based upon there dislike for someone, but this has got to be top five.


I didn't say he's not a good wrestler. I said he's not the greatest wrestler in MMA. I think that's hard to contend against as his resume is not nearly as impressive as the resumes of other wrestlers in the world of mixed martial arts.

As for the drug testing. Sure, I know. But I put about as much weight on any drug testing as anything. Now, I'm not saying that it's definitive or that he should be stripped of his titles because of it, but I am saying it's rather suspicious that he wasn't good enough to make Division I until after half way through college. 



I've said why I think this is the case. If you think there's a different reason - and a rational one, then by all means, share it.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Tomislav III said:


> I've said why I think this is the case. If you think there's a different reason - and a rational one, then by all means, share it.


I don't know how you justify giving greater weight to the fact he was not recruited to a DI college as a freshmen, then actually becoming the NCAA DI Champion. Thousands of people transfer their way into a DI athletics program, only one person becomes a champion. Your point only has validity if Brock was just run of the mill once he was recruited, but he was the Champion. 

Matter of fact, your whole point that he got a late start in DI athletics only emphasizes his natural talent. In only two years of Division I quality training, he became the Champion.

Tens of thousands of athletes were recruited as Freshman, but by their senior year, only one of them became the champion, not the freshmen recruits, Brock the transfer.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> I don't know how you justify giving greater weight to the fact he was not recruited to a DI college as a freshmen, then actually becoming the NCAA DI Champion. Thousands of people transfer their way into a DI athletics program, only one person becomes a champion. Your point only has validity if Brock was just run of the mill once he was recruited, but he was the Champion.
> 
> Matter of fact, your whole point that he got a late start in DI athletics only emphasizes his natural talent. In only two years of Division I quality training, he became the Champion.


So then if he was so naturally talented, why wasn't he recruited to DI?

Can someone answer this question? 


Sure, Brock became a DI champion in 2000. That's good and he's obviously talented at wrestling, but the question is whether he's the most talented in the field of MMA. I don't think he is when you have guys who didn't have to go through the hoops of the NJCAA and who were good enough to compete in the Olympics.


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## 16volts (Jun 27, 2009)

and on the subject of the Olympics and how WWE pays better, i would like to know if anyone knows or can find the answer, was brock even *asked* by the Olympics to join? because if not..why the hell not?!?! if the Olympics didnt ask the NCAA CHAMPION! why not? what in his wrestling career made them go "maybe no"


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Tomislav III said:


> So then if he was so naturally talented, why wasn't he recruited to DI?
> 
> Can someone answer this question?
> 
> ...


Your question is irrelevant to current events. Under your premise, how one start holds greater faculty over where you are. People improve "in time." Nevermind Brock was 33-0 in High School (P.S. Your school's reputation plays a role in DI athletic recruitment, I don't know what the athletic reputation of his high school was), but I'll even go with your theory that Brock wasn't DI material as a freshmen, so what? He still ended up the best of the best once he was among them. 

Did GSP explode on to the scene in a manner that he would be in contention for p4p? Anderson Silva sure wasn't looking like a potential p4p in Pride. 

People don't just get to a point and stop improving. You make it sound like if Brock didn't make it DI as a freshmen, then his talent remained stagnant. 

Key words, "improvement with time," if we must operate under your premise, and that's not including any unknown circumstances why he didn't go DI, maybe he didn't have academic ambitions at 18 or money. I wasn't able to afford going to the University I wanted due to a partial scholarship, so I went the JC route. Your obsession with this not recruited as a freshmen thing, IN LIGHT OF THE FACT, he ended up the National Champion is making me nuts.

"you're killing me smalls!"


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

iight serious question y would bock lesnar crush fedor for those of u who underestimate how good fedor is


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> iight serious question y would bock lesnar crush fedor for those of u who underestimate how good fedor is


I don't think anyone could "crush" Fedor. As it stands today, of this month of this year. I think Brock has a 30/70 chance, 70 to Fedor. However, as time progresses and Brock gains more training, more experience and sharpens his "MMA" skills, while Fedor is on his current path, then I think that ratio will teeter. The further down the road this theoretical fight takes place, the greater chance I give Brock. As it stands on 08/26/09, I give the fight to Fedor.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> I don't think anyone could "crush" Fedor. As it stands today, of this month of this year. I think Brock has a 30/70 chance, 70 to Fedor. However, as time progresses and Brock gains more training, more experience and sharpens his "MMA" skills, while Fedor is on his current path, then I think that ratio will teeter. The further down the road this theoretical fight takes place, the greater chance I give Brock. As it stands on 08/26/09, I give the fight to Fedor.


I see ur point but would aint the odds always be 70 fedor and 30 brock. There both the same age brock will get better but will never archive the level of fighting skills fedor has since he`s a newcomer. With that being said its not like fedor is declining hell he`s probably improving his strength and conditioning. I don`t see how brock will have the advantage i would see it if fedor was 37 and brock was 32. Pretty much its what it is today skills vs power.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

Tomislav III said:


> So then if he was so naturally talented, why wasn't he recruited to DI?
> 
> Can someone answer this question?
> 
> ...


Who the f-ck cares if he wasnt recruited there right away, How does that matter at all. The guy was the f-cking division 1 National champion. Your just sounding more and more retarded every post. Is he the best MMA wrestler? No I think that is clearly GSP and he never went to the Olympics. Did he go to a Division 1 college? No.


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## urbanator (Oct 15, 2006)

Thanks for the post and the link. 

I agree with Frank as to Fedor arguably being the number one pound for pound and that Fedors failed negotiations with the UFC is an excuse not to prove that he is the number one pound for pound. 

But let's face it, it is an opinion. However a very valid one. You can make the arguments that Fedor has to beat Brock, Mir, Randy, etc. to prove himself. The facts still remain, that when Fedor did fight former UFC Champions, he undisputedly beat them. That's how he earned those bragging rights.

Although I am a UFC fan, I'd like to propose, that if Brock, Frank or anyone else would like to take that "distinction" away from Fedor, we'll have to wait for their contract to expire and for them to sign with another organization to fight Fedor.

For the record, I am a huge UFC and Mir Fan. But what's fair is fair.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

urbanator said:


> Thanks for the post and the link.
> 
> I agree with Frank as to Fedor arguably being the number one pound for pound and that Fedors failed negotiations with the UFC is an excuse not to prove that he is the number one pound for pound.
> 
> ...


all i know is if nog beatts randy that`s 1 out of the 3...i don`t count his fight with mir since he was not 100%....but if nog can handle the 3 then fedor is still the number 1.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> Your question is irrelevant to current events. Under your premise, how one start holds greater faculty over where you are. People improve "in time." Nevermind Brock was 33-0 in High School (P.S. Your school's reputation plays a role in DI athletic recruitment, I don't know what the athletic reputation of his high school was), but I'll even go with your theory that Brock wasn't DI material as a freshmen, so what? He still ended up the best of the best once he was among them.
> 
> Did GSP explode on to the scene in a manner that he would be in contention for p4p? Anderson Silva sure wasn't looking like a potential p4p in Pride.
> 
> ...



I don't mean for it to sound like I'm saying he couldn't have improved in time. I think that's perhaps what happened during/after his sophomore year of college. That seems fishy, nonetheless, to me though and I have a small hunch that HGH or steroids were a portion of what happened and he is not at all the natural talent that many people seem to think he is.


He made DI eventually, yes, and I concede he was and is a good wrestler, but as good as guys who were doing it all of their lives at that level? No. 

It just so happens, however, that Fedor has beaten some of those guys who have been at levels higher than Lesnar and if people want to contend that it's Lesnar's wrestling that would beat Fedor, they're not taking into account the level of wrestlers Emelianenko has beaten. 


My major point is that I'm sick of hearing how great Lesnar is and that he's this amazing wrestling god who cannot and won't be beaten for so many years to come. I'm not saying he's not a good wrestler and I'm not saying he didn't place in 1999 and win the DI championship in 2000. It's apparent that he did and he is.



steveo412 said:


> Who the f-ck cares if he wasnt recruited there right away, How does that matter at all. The guy was the f-cking division 1 National champion. Your just sounding more and more retarded every post. Is he the best MMA wrestler? No I think that is clearly GSP and he never went to the Olympics. Did he go to a Division 1 college? No.


Well, people who think that Lesnar's wrestling game can beat Fedor alone when Fedor has beaten guys who are universes apart from Lesnar's wrestling - like Mark Coleman, who I think is the best pure wrestler in the sport. 


I realize that people will qualify this by combining Brock's size with his wrestling ability, but I think that they overestimate size while underestimating the same type of fighters Fedor has beaten.


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## joshua7789 (Apr 25, 2009)

Tomislav III said:


> I don't mean for it to sound like I'm saying he couldn't have improved in time. I think that's perhaps what happened during/after his sophomore year of college. That seems fishy, nonetheless, to me though and I have a small hunch that HGH or steroids were a portion of what happened and he is not at all the natural talent that many people seem to think he is.
> 
> 
> He made DI eventually, yes, and I concede he was and is a good wrestler, but as good as guys who were doing it all of their lives at that level? No.
> ...


The great wrestlers that Fedor beat were not made to be heavyweights. Coleman was a blown up, roided out lhw, the same with randlemen. Lindland is a second tier middleweight. I agree that these guys are all great wrestlers and more decorated then brock, but the x factor here is how physically gifted the dude is. Either way, fans want this fight to happen. Brock wants it to happen. Fedor is indifferent, as always. Fingers crossed.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

joshua7789 said:


> The great wrestlers that Fedor beat were not made to be heavyweights. Coleman was a blown up, roided out lhw, the same with randlemen. Lindland is a second tier middleweight. I agree that these guys are all great wrestlers and more decorated then brock, but the x factor here is how physically gifted the dude is. Either way, fans want this fight to happen. Brock wants it to happen. Fedor is indifferent, as always. Fingers crossed.


Coleman was bigger than Fedor and again I don't think size really has that much to do with it.

Is Lesnar physically impressive, well... from the waist up at least, yes he is. From the waist down... Not so much. Dude has little kid legs. 

Now, I think I would be less apt to keep picking at all the little things about Brock if people didn't overestimate the man so much. He's good, really. But he's not god and making him sound like the premier fighter of the world, like some do, makes it necessary for a guy like me to overkill on the criticism just to balance it out.



Amun said:


> If Brock had actually ended up fighting Coleman, he would have beaten him to a bloody pulp.
> 
> Also, when your argument is reduced to having to accuse a guy who has tested clean his entire life of doing steroids and HGH, you should probably stop posting in a thread. Some people find that kind of behavior offensive.


Outside of Brock's management, I doubt anyone is offended by me saying that Brock's sophomore year of college is a little fishy and that there is a possibility that he bulked up so heavily because of some other substances. He does have a history with this from a young age, you know? Even though the case was dropped, it sticks with you.

Besides, I think there's a difference between being suspicious and accusing. I think I'm being the former.


As far as posting, I think I will stop after this. I'm new to the forum so I don't want to be banned or anything for voicing some frustrations with the Brock love and point out some things I notice. So, to summarize.


Fedor beats Brock in the first round by an arm bar. That's all.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

I kinda have to agree with mir here fedor would have allot more room to work in a ring than he would a cage plus the cage is foreign to him. If he gets a few cage fights then I would give it to fedor plus he has to get use to the rules of UFC.


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## asskicker (Aug 27, 2006)

HeelHooker said:


> Guess what, I actually believe it too.
> 
> I honestly think the Fedor thing went a little too far at one point and a lot of fans are now catching on to what catching Arlovski with a punch after he's outscored you in the fight or failing to finish Noguiera three times when Mir did it with relative ease in one fight or winning a Bisping-like gift decision against Arona when Arona has clearly out-grappled you really means.
> 
> ...


Im sorry Im not going to take the time to read the rest of this thread so if this has been answered I apologize. But what have the UFC guys done to prove that they are the best?
I mean after all Brock has only beaten a 46 year old man who weighed at least 45 pounds less and only God knows how much more by the time the fight took place and if 1-1 against Frank Mir who really hasnt done a whole lot either. Yes he beat Nog but Nog is old and battered now and was in his prime when Fedor dominated him, plus Fedor sat in his guard, escaped subs and pummeled him the whole fight. KO or no that was an EXTREMELY impressive win and way of winning. Plus Nig wasnt even healthy when he fought Mir not to make excuses or anything. And then Mir beat Lesner.

So it seems Lesner and Mir are both living off wins over eachother which doesnt make much sense considering all each of them have aside from that are wins over old guys (no disrespect to Couture he did alright against Lesner and I think the size hurt him more than the age)and then who does the UFC have? Velazquez and Carwin? Both unproven. 

So what makes you think the UFC HW division is so great? Aside from the fact that you ignorantly buy into the UFC PR machines hype.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> all i know is if nog beatts randy that`s 1 out of the 3...i don`t count his fight with mir since he was not 100%....but if nog can handle the 3 then fedor is still the number 1.


Randy's 46. If he beats Nog, Fedor should no longer be considered the #1 HW by anyone. The whole "Nog is washed up" line, just won't work here. OTOH, if Randy loses to a guy 13 years younger, things will still be in doubt. The guy is 46. He really does have an age excuse. He's bound to slow down in one of these fights.



asskicker said:


> Im sorry Im not going to take the time to read the rest of this thread so if this has been answered I apologize. But what have the UFC guys done to prove that they are the best?


They've demolished all the old guard. All the old Pride HW's, Nog, HH, Cop, and all the old UFC HW's, Sylvia and AA, have been demolished. The new era is here.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

:confused02:


Tomislav III said:


> Well, people who think that Lesnar's wrestling game can beat Fedor alone when Fedor has beaten guys who are universes apart from Lesnar's wrestling - like Mark Coleman, who I think is the best pure wrestler in the sport.
> 
> 
> I realize that people will qualify this by combining Brock's size with his wrestling ability, but I think that they overestimate size while underestimating the same type of fighters Fedor has beaten.


Mark Coleman? Really? Maybe nine years ago. He is nothing even close to some of the wrestlers in the UFC today. Your just going by there backround and credentials from before. Watch them fight in MMA and decide. GSP is easy the best Wrestler in the sport. He is a better MMA Wrestler than Matt Lindland Olympics silver medalist, better than Hendo, better than Couture and better than Brock. But Brock is the best HW wrestler for sure. Do I think he is going to beat Fedor? F-ck No he will be have an arm in a cast before the second round. But his wrestling is still the best at HW



Calminian said:


> Randy's 46. If he beats Nog, Fedor should no longer be considered the #1 HW by anyone. The whole "Nog is washed up" line, just won't work here. OTOH, if Randy loses to a guy 13 years younger, things will still be in doubt. The guy is 46. He really does have an age excuse. He's bound to slow down in one of these fights.
> 
> They've demolished all the old guard. All the old Pride HW's, Nog, HH, Cop, and all the old UFC HW's, Sylvia and AA, have been demolished. The new era is here.


If Randy beat's Nog, FEDOR should no longer be considered #1 by anyone? Because Nog is starting to show a lot of weakness and look bad we should drop the rank of a guy who kicked his ass years ago and is still dominating fights to this day.:confused02: Yah that makes a ton of sense.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

steveo412 said:


> Mark Coleman? Really? Maybe nine years ago. He is nothing even close to some of the wrestlers in the UFC today. Your just going by there backround and credentials from before. Watch them fight in MMA and decide. GSP is easy the best Wrestler in the sport. He is a better MMA Wrestler than Matt Lindland Olympics silver medalist, better than Hendo, better than Couture and better than Brock. But Brock is the best HW wrestler for sure. Do I think he is going to beat Fedor? F-ck No he will be have an arm in a cast before the second round. But his wrestling is still the best at HW


Arm in a cast, huh? Oy. Well at least you're acknowledging he's a better wrestler than Coleman. :sarcastic09: 

When you get a chance, check out Fedor/Hunt again. Fedor had a full on armbar and couldn't finish it and almost got kimoraed himself. You really think Brock is worse than Hunt?

I'm so bummed this fight will never happen. I don't even think Fedor's getting out of Strikeforce without a defeat, and if that happens, Dana may dog him big time.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

Calminian said:


> Arm in a cast, huh? Oy. Well at least you're acknowledging he's a better wrestler than Coleman. When you get a chance, check out Fedor/Hunt again. Fedor had a full on armbar and couldn't finish it and almost got kimoraed himself. You really think Brock is worse than Hunt.
> 
> I'm so bummed this fight will never happen. I don't even think Fedor's getting out of Strikeforce without a defeat, and if that happens, Dana may dog him really hard.


Lol Fedor got out of that sub and Kimura'd hunt in the same round. Fedor has the best armbars and Kimura out of any other HW. To even debate that is just dumb.


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## Wookie (Jul 20, 2008)

Brock still has to accumulate some wins before he deserves all this hype. Of course Frank thinks he will win, but he thinks he will beat Fedor if they fought, and he hasn't had any truly great streaks going either. Brock's only fought 3 people in the UFC none of which have done anything really relevent in their last couple fights. I might believe he could win when he gets a 9-1 record but until then it's all just talk.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

steveo412 said:


> Lol Fedor got out of that sub and Kimura'd hunt in the same round. Fedor has the best armbars and Kimura out of any other HW. To even debate that is just dumb.


Trust me just watch it again. Those first rounds were 10 minutes. Hunt was clearly winning the match on the ground. Fedor had mount early and then a fully locked armbar. Hunt flipped over the top and reversed it. He then controlled the ground game for about minutes. Then they got up. Then Hunt took Fedor down hard and almost kimoraed him. It was really close. Again he controlled the ground game a few more minutes. Then they got up again in the 9th minute or so and Hunt was utterly exhausted. You could just see it in his face. Let's face it, the dude is quite plump. He and Fedor literally fell to the mat and Fedor locked in the kimora. 

Sorry, I just can't see that happening to Brock.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

steveo412 said:


> :confused02:
> 
> Mark Coleman? Really? Maybe nine years ago. He is nothing even close to some of the wrestlers in the UFC today. Your just going by there backround and credentials from before. Watch them fight in MMA and decide. GSP is easy the best Wrestler in the sport. He is a better MMA Wrestler than Matt Lindland Olympics silver medalist, better than Hendo, better than Couture and better than Brock. But Brock is the best HW wrestler for sure. Do I think he is going to beat Fedor? F-ck No he will be have an arm in a cast before the second round. But his wrestling is still the best at HW


You're right, I haven't seen many recent Mark Coleman fights, so I am going off of his past.



Calminian said:


> Trust me just watch it again. Those first rounds were 10 minutes. Hunt was clearly winning the match on the ground. Fedor had mount early and then a fully locked armbar. Hunt flipped over the top and reversed it. He then controlled the ground game for about minutes. Then they got up. Then Hunt took Fedor down hard and almost kimoraed him. It was really close. Again he controlled the ground game a few more minutes. Then they got up again in the 9th minute or so and Hunt was utterly exhausted. You could just see it in his face. Let's face it, the dude is quite plump. He and Fedor literally fell to the mat and Fedor locked in the kimora.
> 
> Sorry, I just can't see that happening to Brock.



Fully locked my balls! Fedor missed Hunt's head the first time and the second time Fedor just couldn't move his hips in his position and Hunt made a good move. Then Fedor got out of a pretty good Americana which tells me that they must have been wet or there was something making the match a little extra slippery - maybe the canvas was wet? - but either way, Fedor got out of Hunt's control like it was nothing and forced his own kimara in like it was child's play.

I don't think you can use that fight as evidence of Fedor being not good - I think you can use it as evidence that Fedor can just turn it on like a light switch though. The Lesnar fight had something similar when Mir had that flying knee. You wouldn't say, whoa Lesnar sucks because he got a knee to the face, I say wow Lesnar does have a chin because he was able to take that.


----------



## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

Amun said:


> Fedor also got controlled on the ground by Arona, in a fight he clearly lost and got a gift wrapped decision.


Rings was barely even MMA, you couldnt even use ground in pound in it, one of Fedors best skills and that was years and years ago.


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## steveo412 (Sep 27, 2006)

Amun said:


> This discussion has taken a turn towards ground control and wrestling, and you can't GNP when you're on your back. Fedor being controlled in both in the Arona and Hunt fight demonstrate to me that Brock has a good base to beat him.


Arona also being a guy who has been finished from GnP, Dont tell me Fedor was never on top in that fight, he definetly would have had chances to land some good shots. Instead if was more of a JJ match on the ground which is Aronas specialty and a lot different from a normal MMA match


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

Amun said:


> This discussion has taken a turn towards ground control and wrestling, and you can't GNP when you're on your back. Fedor being controlled in both in the Arona and Hunt fight demonstrate to me that Brock has a good base to beat him.


When Fedor can't GNP, he seems more comfortable on his back. 


That's common in ***** because a lot of submissions are based on turning someone from on top of you. Half the time Fedor was on his back he was trying to pull of a submission and had Arona's head in a trap. I don't know how you can say that was a gift for Arona. Besides getting on his knees and plowing his head forward looking at the ground what did he do? Fedor had submission attempts, out boxed him and had him in the clinch for most of the fight. Just in the final round of the fight Fedor threw Arona off like a rag doll and had Arona laying on the mat waiting for Fedor like an Anderson Silva opponent. 

Was the fight closer than usual? Yeah, Arona didn't do terrible and Fedor didn't do great, but I hardly call that a gift.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

Calminian said:


> Trust me just watch it again. Those first rounds were 10 minutes. Hunt was clearly winning the match on the ground. Fedor had mount early and then a fully locked armbar. Hunt flipped over the top and reversed it. He then controlled the ground game for about minutes. Then they got up. Then Hunt took Fedor down hard and almost kimoraed him. It was really close. Again he controlled the ground game a few more minutes. Then they got up again in the 9th minute or so and Hunt was utterly exhausted. You could just see it in his face. Let's face it, the dude is quite plump. He and Fedor literally fell to the mat and Fedor locked in the kimora.
> 
> Sorry, I just can't see that happening to Brock.


Well Fedor said he had the armbar locked, but didn't try to finish him really, giving Hunt a chance to escape. He also said he was never in trouble during the *americana* attempt, not Kimura; and if you watch closely, Hunt doesn't even have the move applied 100% correctly.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Tomislav III said:


> Well, people who think that Lesnar's wrestling game can beat Fedor alone when Fedor has beaten guys who are universes apart from Lesnar's wrestling - like Mark Coleman, who I think is the best pure wrestler in the sport.
> 
> I realize that people will qualify this by combining Brock's size with his wrestling ability, but I think that they overestimate size while underestimating the same type of fighters Fedor has beaten.


You're going to make me defend a point I don't necessarily full heartedly agree with (because I do feel Fedor is the best), but first and foremost, the biggest opponent Fedor has fought was that Japanese giant, Hong Man Choi. 

Point number one, when Fedor attempted his signature mid-air hip rotation TD, Hong Man Choi was simply too heavy and Choi dropped on top of Fedor. 

Theoretical point number one. Hong Man Choi is about 5% as effective as Brock on the ground. If Fedor drops Lesnar on top of him, Brock won't be begging for an arm bar with long-reaching, long hanging, slow motions punches, and Brock won't look lost or ineffective on the ground. 

Point number two, granted Hong Man Choi weighs about 330lbs and Brock technically 260-265lbs by weigh ins (but by fight night who knows for sure), but Brock moves like he's 205 and his explosive power and strength make Hong Man Choi looks like he has down syndrome in comparison. Therefore, if Choi is your example that Fedor has faced like opponents as Brock, then your statement is absolutely invalid. Fedor has faced opponents that are Brock's like-size & weight, but not even close when combining size x athletic ability x coordination x agility x strength x speed x talent. Hong Man Choi is just a big dude, but he's slow and his fight awareness is infinitely questionable, considering he fell for a move that was attempted about 45 seconds earlier. 

I'm not saying Brock is some ultimate MMA'ist, I believe at this current time, Fedor would win, but as long as you continue to discredit Brock's abilities, while Tarzan swinging from Fedor's nuts, I'll counter Tarzan swing from Brock's. 

Also, I'm not knocking your "opinions," that's anyone's prerogative, but to say Fedor has faced opponents like Brock isn't an opinion, it's an inaccuracy of facts.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> You're going to make me defend a point I don't necessarily full heartedly agree with (because I do feel Fedor is the best), but first and foremost, the biggest opponent Fedor has fought was that Japanese giant, Hong Man Choi.
> 
> Point number one, when Fedor attempted his signature mid-air hip rotation TD, Hong Man Choi was simply too heavy and Choi dropped on top of Fedor.
> 
> ...


I was more referencing the type of really good wrestlers when I said "Brock type fighters." I realize HMC was not effective on the ground, but I don't really see what more Brock is going to do against Fedor other than lay on him if he gets the chance to put him on his back, which is exactly what HMC did... So... I don't know.


As for the first arm bar attempt, sure, Fedor couldn't pull out that one, but he definitely did pull out the second.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

Tomislav III said:


> I was more referencing the type of really good wrestlers when I said "Brock type fighters." I realize HMC was not effective on the ground, but I don't really see what more Brock is going to do against Fedor other than lay on him if he gets the chance to put him on his back, which is exactly what HMC did... So... I don't know.
> .


No. Did you see how HMC was postering and what not? He also had no idea that the arm bar was even coming, and had a terrible base. Now watch Lesnar vs Mir... he wraps his arm around his head, has wrist control with the other hand, and establishes a good base and a tight half guard. That is control that very few people in the world will be able to escape from.


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

VolcomX311 said:


> You're going to make me defend a point I don't necessarily full heartedly agree with (because I do feel Fedor is the best), but first and foremost, the biggest opponent Fedor has fought was that Japanese giant, Hong Man Choi.
> 
> Point number one, when Fedor attempted his signature mid-air hip rotation TD, Hong Man Choi was simply too heavy and Choi dropped on top of Fedor.
> 
> ...


Damn I'd rep you again if I didn't have to spread it around more. I also think Fedor is the better fighter and would win, but comparing HMC to Lesnar is like comparing a boulder to a tank. Yeah they're both big, but one will destroy you a lot easier than the other. Brock's combination of size, amazing athleticism and wrestling skill is not something Fedor or any HW has faced before him. This would be Fedor's biggest test yet.


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## giga191 (Jul 13, 2009)

Tomislav III said:


> Well, people who think that Lesnar's wrestling game can beat Fedor alone when Fedor has beaten guys who are universes apart from Lesnar's wrestling - like Mark Coleman, who I think is the best pure wrestler in the sport.


Mark Coleman is not in the same league as Brock in terms of brute strength - a very important factor when considering wrestling ability.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> I see ur point but would aint the odds always be 70 fedor and 30 brock. There both the same age brock will get better but will never archive the level of fighting skills fedor has since he`s a newcomer. With that being said its not like fedor is declining hell he`s probably improving his strength and conditioning. I don`t see how brock will have the advantage i would see it if fedor was 37 and brock was 32. Pretty much its what it is today skills vs power.


Because Brock is still so green. The margin for improvement for Fedor is much less. Talent wise, you could argue either Fedor "is" at his peak, coming down from his peak, or perhaps not yet at his peak, but awfully, awfully close. Fedor is either at the zenith or very close to the top of his talent pyramid. He can sharpen here & there theoretically, but as a whole, Fedor is Fedor. Whereas, Brock, is still basically a beginner as far as MMA talent is concerned. Brock's margin for improvement is much larger then Fedor's, therefore, as time goes on, the difference in the ability to win between the two will close.

Given we assume their is no ceiling to peak performance and Fedor continues to improve indefinitely, the general idea still stands. Fedor may improve 2-3% a year because he's already so elite. His improvements are not really perceivable because he's already so good. On the other hand, within months you've seen Brock grow drastically from Mir I to Mir II, perhaps a 30% improvement (speculation of course, I have no objective means to quantify Brock's improvements from fight to fight).

Even if you are under the belief that Brock will never adapt to technical MMA fighting (because people love to argue he's just a talentless ogre) and decide to argue this point to this day, you still couldn't argue that he hasn't shown "perceivable" improvements in fight patience, improving his intra-fight demeanor, controlling his nerves, rationing his energy as to not deplete his entire cardio engine in the first 30 seconds, becoming more aware of BJJ offense and a state of mind to defend it. 

Basic premise: Brock is still incredibly green and his margin for improvement is much greater then Fedor's, therefore, time favors Brock over Fedor.

However, I'm not saying Brock will ever "catch up" to Fedor. I think a very minor, minor, minor handful of fighters will reach Fedor's over-all talent. I'm just saying that the difference in a win/loss ratio would shrink with time in Brock's favor, but not disappear.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> Because Brock is still so green. The margin for improvement for Fedor is much less. Talent wise, you could argue either Fedor "is" at his peak, coming down from his peak, or perhaps not yet at his peak, but awfully, awfully close. Fedor is either at the zenith or very close to the top of his talent pyramid. He can sharpen here & there theoretically, but as a whole, Fedor is Fedor. Whereas, Brock, is still basically a beginner as far as MMA talent is concerned. Brock's margin for improvement is much larger then Fedor's, therefore, as time goes on, the difference in the ability to win between the two will close.
> 
> Given we assume their is no ceiling to peak performance and Fedor continues to improve indefinitely, the general idea still stands. Fedor may improve 2-3% a year because he's already so elite. His improvements are not really perceivable because he's already so good. On the other hand, within months you've seen Brock grow drastically from Mir I to Mir II, perhaps a 30% improvement (speculation of course, I have no objective means to quantify Brock's improvements from fight to fight).
> 
> ...


With brock constantly improving and fedor staying the same just say...how does brock have the edge when fedor is still more technically advanced by a mile. Brock is 32 and is a athlete at some point his body will break down like athletes do. SO since him and fedor are pretty much the same age and brock improving how does brock get the edge when fedor will always be the more skilled fighter by a mile. Like if brock gets more skills like a stand up and abondon his strength the g and p would aint that open the door for him to get beat because his stand up will never be as good as some of the great fighters.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> With brock constantly improving and fedor staying the same just say...how does brock have the edge when fedor is still more technically advanced by a mile. Brock is 32 and is a athlete at some point his body will break down like athletes do. SO since him and fedor are pretty much the same age and brock improving how does brock get the edge when fedor will always be the more skilled fighter by a mile.


unless............ Brock is better right now! :confused05::eek03:


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## TERMINATOR (Jul 6, 2008)

I can see Lesnar taking this fight for sure due to the brute strength. With any luck this question will be answered one of these days.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

TERMINATOR said:


> I can see Lesnar taking this fight for sure due to the brute strength. With any luck this question will be answered one of these days.


i see fedor skills being to much for brock...frank mir did beat him once with skills but frank mir is 3 levels under fedor.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> With brock constantly improving and fedor staying the same just say...how does brock have the edge when fedor is still more technically advanced by a mile. Brock is 32 and is a athlete at some point his body will break down like athletes do. SO since him and fedor are pretty much the same age and brock improving how does brock get the edge when fedor will always be the more skilled fighter by a mile. Like if brock gets more skills like a stand up and abondon his strength the g and p would aint that open the door for him to get beat because his stand up will never be as good as some of the great fighters.


Re-read my post, brotha. I never once implied Brock has "an edge" over Feyador The Machine. I said Brock has more room to improve then Fedor does, therefore, for example, in 2 years time, Brock may be a totally different fighter, whereas, Fedor, will be a slightly sharper version of Fedor, key word being slightly and that's not a knock, but people who are elite don't jump leaps & bounds. Beginners jump leaps & bounds, aka Brock Lesnar in comparison to The Russian Machine. I said the gap between who would win in a fight would "shrink," not close and definitely not an "edge" for Brock (any time soon).

All theoretical rhetoric and philosophies aside, I'm really finding it arbitrary discussing a Brock/Fedor fight in the current atmosphere of the unlikeliness of any kind of match in the near future.

My whole premise in defending Brock was #1. He has a legitimate wrestling background. #2. He is still green, therefore, his potential is still wide open. #3. I was never implying Brock was better then Fedor, I'm not retarded.

I was never arguing that Brock was an amazing MMA'ist, but with all his physiological advantages, he doesn't need to be an amazing MMA'ist to be a Dominant Fighter. 

I'm not trying to convince anyone that Brock could defeat Fedor and I don't need convincing to recognize Feyador is the Mike Tyson of MMA. I respect opposing opinions because we're mostly here to speculate. I was only adamant about defending Brock's wrestling legitimacy because that's not a personal opinion, they're stone cold facts you can go look up at the University of Iowa athletic history and the halls of NCAA Champions.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> Re-read my post, brotha. I never once implied Brock has "an edge" over Feyador The Machine. I said Brock has more room to improve then Fedor does, therefore, for example, in 2 years time, Brock may be a totally different fighter, whereas, Fedor, will be a slightly sharper version of Fedor, key word being slightly and that's not a knock, but people who are elite don't jump leaps & bounds. Beginners jump leaps & bounds, aka Brock Lesnar in comparison to The Russian Machine. I said the gap between who would win in a fight would "shrink," not close and definitely not an "edge" for Brock (any time soon).
> 
> All theoretical rhetoric and philosophies aside, I'm really finding it arbitrary discussing a Brock/Fedor fight in the current atmosphere of the unlikeliness of any kind of match in the near future.
> 
> ...


gotta give u propz on that...misread ur last post my bad.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> gotta give u propz on that...misread ur last post my bad.


All to the good


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

giga191 said:


> Mark Coleman is not in the same league as Brock in terms of brute strength - a very important factor when considering wrestling ability.


I don't know if there's really anyway to prove that right now though.

Measuring "brute strength" for Coleman back in the mid-2000's and measuring it for Brock today might be different.


But I suspect it's never been as different as some might think. I mean, Mark Coleman is a strong guy. Brock has big shoulders, but I think the legs might take a bit away from his power. Dude is pretty top heavy.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> Because Brock is still so green. The margin for improvement for Fedor is much less. Talent wise, you could argue either Fedor "is" at his peak, coming down from his peak, or perhaps not yet at his peak, but awfully, awfully close. Fedor is either at the zenith or very close to the top of his talent pyramid. He can sharpen here & there theoretically, but as a whole, Fedor is Fedor. Whereas, Brock, is still basically a beginner as far as MMA talent is concerned. Brock's margin for improvement is much larger then Fedor's, therefore, as time goes on, the difference in the ability to win between the two will close.
> 
> Given we assume their is no ceiling to peak performance and Fedor continues to improve indefinitely, the general idea still stands. Fedor may improve 2-3% a year because he's already so elite. His improvements are not really perceivable because he's already so good. On the other hand, within months you've seen Brock grow drastically from Mir I to Mir II, perhaps a 30% improvement (speculation of course, I have no objective means to quantify Brock's improvements from fight to fight).
> 
> ...



You have it right here - as much as I still don't think Brock will ever get to Fedor's level, not that you do - but what you're describing is basically mathematically sound.

Fedor has already reached a certain plateau making even marginal gains in skill harder to achieve. 

Lesnar, like other newer fighters, is not there yet, so he's still got a far ways to go.


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## Ondskan (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm with Mir at this point, hate me or not but in my immagination Brock would be the first to destroy Fedor. And I really don't like Brock at all...
Fedor has my total respect, but that would end with a win for the Chest Cock.


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

Mir was wrong when he said that he would beat Brock Lesnar in a rematch, and he's wrong now saying that Fedor would lose too. Mir's prognostications suck.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

VolcomX311 said:


> Re-read my post, brotha. I never once implied Brock has "an edge" over Feyador The Machine. I said Brock has more room to improve then Fedor does, therefore, for example, in 2 years time, Brock may be a totally different fighter, whereas, Fedor, will be a slightly sharper version of Fedor, key word being slightly and that's not a knock, but people who are elite don't jump leaps & bounds. Beginners jump leaps & bounds, aka Brock Lesnar in comparison to The Russian Machine. I said the gap between who would win in a fight would "shrink," not close and definitely not an "edge" for Brock (any time soon).
> 
> All theoretical rhetoric and philosophies aside, I'm really finding it arbitrary discussing a Brock/Fedor fight in the current atmosphere of the unlikeliness of any kind of match in the near future.
> 
> ...


I was looking at your gifs and found it funny that Randalman and the hammarhouse guys never really learned how to defend jitz especailly something as easy to defend as that kimura! Oh well I guess roids and wrestling took them pretty far, they both were UFC heavyweight champs.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

jcal said:


> they both were UFC heavyweight champs.


So was Tim Sylvia, which speaks volumes about the lack of depth the UFC Heavyweight Division once was. I'm not sure that the HW in the UFC is necessarily deep now, they really only have two or three really strong fighters and the rest are questionable, imo.

PRIDE's HW class, back in the day, may have been the most stacked division across the board, ever. 

RIP Pride.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> So was Tim Sylvia, which speaks volumes about the lack of depth the UFC Heavyweight Division once was. I'm not sure that the HW in the UFC is necessarily deep now, they really only have two or three really strong fighters and the rest are questionable, imo.
> 
> PRIDE's HW class, back in the day, may have been the most stacked division across the board, ever.
> 
> RIP Pride.


Oh man, this is utter bologna. Both UFC and Pride HW divisions were weak. Only until recently has there been a decent HW division, thanks to Brock, Carwin, the new Mir, etc. Just look at what is happening to the _still young_ Pride HW's. None of them can compete. Gonzaga proved crocop can't hang. Mir proved Nog can't hang. Lesnar proved HH can't hang. And everyone and their mother is proving Sylvia and AA can't hang. 

Let's put these glory days in their proper place.

BTW, Fedor is still avoiding the new guard. The closest he'll come is in this fight with Rogers, who could be top tier, but it's still unknown.


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

I don't see how one lost title defense proves Nog can't hang


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

HexRei said:


> I don't see how one lost title defense proves Nog can't hang


From my perspective, it was the fashion in which he lost. Nog looked just as helpless against Tim Sylvia, thank God Nog pulled it out, nonetheless, he looks generally slower and simply "less than," lately. A loss where you simply get caught is one thing, but Nog got dominated round by round between Silvia and Mir. He did beat Tim, but prior to that, he was really ineffective.

I'm 0 for 2 in pimping out the Pride fighters I bragged so much about to my UFC head spearing friends. I talked up Mirco to no end, because he was my main and I laughed at the idea of a Nog/Silvia. Though Nog won, he was looking really bad up to that point. No doubt Nog displayed mastery by forcing a brief window of vulnerability and exploited that small window to a win, however, apart from that, he was getting beat in that fight and pretty bad. Tim totally neutralized Nog with his jabs.

Nog said he was sick or whatever prior to the Mir fight, which is fine & legit with me, I'm a fan and all, but the problem is, he looked exactly the same as he did during the Mir fight as he did with Silvia. The same short comings were apparent. I doubt a 100% healthy Nog would have won that Mir fight.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, but if you're considering the Nog who went the distance with Fedor, to the Nog of today, maaaaaaajor downhill slide.


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## Tomislav III (Aug 22, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Oh man, this is utter bologna. Both UFC and Pride HW divisions were weak. Only until recently has there been a decent HW division, thanks to Brock, Carwin, the new Mir, etc. Just look at what is happening to the _still young_ Pride HW's. None of them can compete. Gonzaga proved crocop can't hang. Mir proved Nog can't hang. Lesnar proved HH can't hang. And everyone and their mother is proving Sylvia and AA can't hang.
> 
> Let's put these glory days in their proper place.
> 
> BTW, Fedor is still avoiding the new guard. The closest he'll come is in this fight with Rogers, who could be top tier, but it's still unknown.


You really don't seem to get exactly how stacked Pride was and if you're using recent losses of guys who are obviously on the decline in their careers as proof that Pride was a second rate organization, you're the one full of bologna.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Pride in its hay day had one of the most stacked HW divisions of all time. At the time, Fedor was internationally top ranked, Mirco was internationally top ranked, Big Nog was internationally top ranked, Coleman was in his prime, you had Igor Vovchanchyn, the enforcer Don Frye:










Kevin Randleman, Mark Kerr, who was a smaller version of a Brock Lesnar of his day.... Furthermore, Rampage originates from Pride, Silva originates from Pride and Hendo. Pride was where it was at. 

Furthermore, and this does sound like a sad excuse, but it's true, one of the biggest obstructions in the transfer from Pride to UFC, is the cage factor. There's no being pushed against a cage in Pride and the UFC are much more lienient about non-action on the ground, which works heavily against Mirco, who does best in K1-like rules, which Pride was closer to then the UFC.

At Pride's height, the HW division contained the largest amount of internationally ranked fighters, not just division exclusive, but over-all ranked. However, I'm with you on that we can't dwell on the past, but to put down Pride's HW division during it's day, is blasphemous. 

All that said, I do agree that Brock and Carwin has reinvigorated the HW scene and raised the standard for HW fighters.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Oh man, this is utter bologna. Both UFC and Pride HW divisions were weak. Only until recently has there been a decent HW division, thanks to Brock, Carwin, the new Mir, etc. Just look at what is happening to the _still young_ Pride HW's. None of them can compete. Gonzaga proved crocop can't hang. Mir proved Nog can't hang. Lesnar proved HH can't hang. And everyone and their mother is proving Sylvia and AA can't hang.
> 
> Let's put these glory days in their proper place.
> 
> BTW, Fedor is still avoiding the new guard. The closest he'll come is in this fight with Rogers, who could be top tier, but it's still unknown.


This isn't an argument I care enough to thoroughly engage in further. I'm all about Brock these days and he is the current event, so.... 

Nonetheless, you're crazy to call PRIDE's old HW division a sham. They might have had 5 of the world's top ten fighters in that HW division alone at the time. However, I do agree that Brock is a new breed of beast and that's all I really care about.


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## asskicker (Aug 27, 2006)

I dont think that Strikeforces HW division is better than the UFCs overall. I just dont think the UFCs is nearly as good as many seem to think it is and i was just trying to put it in perspective. I just think its ridiculous that people think Fedor needs to go the UFC to prove himself when there really isnt a whole lot of proven fighters for there for him to beat. Sure the UFC is by far and away the best organization but that doesnt mean there HW division doesnt suck


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## KryptoNITE^^ (Jul 27, 2009)

LOL man... I feel sorry for Frank Mir. 2009 is a bad year for him.

He got brutally molested by a guy with a dick on his chest. 

His mancrush Miguel Torres gets KTFO by an unknown.

His partner Forrest gets the beating of his life against one of the best P4P fighters in the world.

And now he gets sacrificed to The Spider. That's gotta suck. :sarcastic01:


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

KryptoNITE^^ said:


> LOL man... I feel sorry for Frank Mir. 2009 is a bad year for him.
> 
> He got brutally molested by a guy with a dick on his chest.
> 
> ...


there's still a lot of 2009 left.


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## KryptoNITE^^ (Jul 27, 2009)

hellholming said:


> there's still a lot of 2009 left.


Yep! Still enough space to fit in getting kneed in the balls by Cup Cheick. ;-)


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

:laugh:

that's funny because it will happen... But Frank will still win.


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## KryptoNITE^^ (Jul 27, 2009)

hellholming said:


> :laugh:
> 
> that's funny because it will happen... But Frank will still win.


No doubt. :thumb02:


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


> This isn't an argument I care enough to thoroughly engage in further. I'm all about Brock these days and he is the current event, so....
> 
> Nonetheless, you're crazy to call PRIDE's old HW division a sham. They might have had 5 of the world's top ten fighters in that HW division alone at the time. However, I do agree that Brock is a new breed of beast and that's all I really care about.


I didn't really say that though. I said the entire HW division of all of mma was weak until now. I think we have to thank Couture a natural old LHW, for exposing it by going in and dominating the UFC HW champ. We all see now what's happening to the Pride guys in this new era. They're still young, and if they would just fight one another, they'd be impressive. But against the new, they are weak. 

It's really been accepted for a while that the mma HW division is weak. I don't know why you think it's crazy.


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## turbohall (Aug 6, 2009)

A lot of people say Brock is not ready for Fedor yet or he is not good enough to fight him or that he has not fought anyone yet. But Brock has won 3 MMA fights in a *CAGE*, Fedor has *NEVER* fought in a *CAGE*. I thought I would point that out. 

If Fedor beats Rogers in has upcoming fight in a cage then UFC is still going to want him, but if Rogers beats Fedor in a cage the UFC will never want Fedor.


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

VolcomX311 said:


> This isn't an argument I care enough to thoroughly engage in further. I'm all about Brock these days and he is the current event, so....
> 
> Nonetheless, you're crazy to call PRIDE's old HW division a sham. They might have had 5 of the world's top ten fighters in that HW division alone at the time. However, I do agree that Brock is a new breed of beast and that's all I really care about.


Yeah Pride was the most stacked HW in history so far but the Ufc is getting there now. And like tomaslav said alot of the fighters are on the downside of their careers. Your guy was Cro cop, I liked Sergei Kharitonov and they are both on the decline especially Sergei. Nogs been in too many tough fought battles and Randys just too old to be a threat to anyone for the title anymore, even if he beats Nog. One last thing Heath used to be real effective in Pride with knees from side control, that was one of his keys to victory, he, like many others didnt adopt well to UFC rules.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

jcal said:


> Yeah Pride was the most stacked HW in history so far but the Ufc is getting there now. And like tomaslav said alot of the fighters are on the downside of their careers. Your guy was Cro cop, I liked Sergei Kharitonov and they are both on the decline especially Sergei. Nogs been in too many tough fought battles and Randys just too old to be a threat to anyone for the title anymore, even if he beats Nog. One last thing Heath used to be real effective in Pride with knees from side control, that was one of his keys to victory, he, like many others didnt adopt well to UFC rules.


There's something weird about that Pride to UFC transition, n not only in environment, but as you said, HH stopped doing those devastating knees from side control, Rampage abandoned all forms of wrestling to becoming a professional boxer and I haven't seen Wandy Silva effectively clinch and bring down the house with his knees. Odd :confused02:


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

VolcomX311 said:


> There's something weird about that Pride to UFC transition, n not only in environment, but as you said, HH stopped doing those devastating knees from side control, Rampage abandoned all forms of wrestling to becoming a professional boxer and I haven't seen Wandy Silva effectively clinch and bring down the house with his knees. Odd :confused02:


Ya, has Rampage had a single slam in the UFC?


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

he moved away from the slamming when he began training with juanito. too bad. but I think he realized that it costs a lot of energy to slam and there's no guaranteed KO from it, not to mention sometimes you end up in the guy's guard where you might not want to be. And the judges only are going to score for that takedown and maybe some damage, whereas staying on your feet might let you land a whole lot of strikes as opposed to striking from inside a guy's guard.

ALl in all having strong boxing probably seemed like a simpler, safer, and more crowd-pleasing path to the win. Also Juanito is a boxing coach. LOL


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

wukkadb said:


> Ya, has Rampage had a single slam in the UFC?


I don't think he's down a single TD in the UFC, much less a slam. I think the most ground action we've seen from Rampage in the UFC were defensive maneuvers or falling down on top of Dan Henderson at Page/Hendo II.


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## HeelHooker (Jun 27, 2009)

VolcomX311 said:


>


Payback is a sore bitch! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEbZ...EFCB7334&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=62


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## jcal (Oct 15, 2006)

wukkadb said:


> Ya, has Rampage had a single slam in the UFC?


I think he went to slam Forrest but forrest new what was coming and opened his guard on his way up and stopped it from happening.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

HexRei said:


> he moved away from the slamming when he began training with juanito. too bad. but I think he realized that it costs a lot of energy to slam and there's no guaranteed KO from it, not to mention sometimes you end up in the guy's guard where you might not want to be. And the judges only are going to score for that takedown and maybe some damage, whereas staying on your feet might let you land a whole lot of strikes as opposed to striking from inside a guy's guard.
> 
> ALl in all having strong boxing probably seemed like a simpler, safer, and more crowd-pleasing path to the win. Also Juanito is a boxing coach. LOL


I actually agree that "slamming" is for the most part, an excessive expenditure of energy without causing enough damage worth it's effort (with uncommonly occasional exceptions). 

I think Rampage is a better fighter now, with his Juanito acquired (then fired) boxing skills, but I do think that he would make for a better MMA'ist if TD's were a lingering threat for his opponents and for the mere benefit of having a dynamic arsenal. This is especially true to someone like Rampage, where he's strong enough to not require "nailing" a shoot or acquiring the perfect leverage to take you down.

In all speculation, maybe Griffin wouldn't have poked Rampage to death with low/mid kicks if Griffin wasn't given free reign to throw a leg at Rampage in the absent threat of a TD.

Since Page and Rashad are coming up in the near future, I'll touch on this. I do like Rampage a hell of a lot more then Rashad, but Rashad is a "potential" double threat. He doesn't wrestle much these days, but people at least know he does carry two six shooters and whether he unholsters one or both (box and/or wrestle) are at least threatening and a tactical concern which infests how one trains. 

Rashad's opponents know that they need to work on a much larger array of tactics. Whereas, Rampage, you can basically hire a boxing coach for defensive purposes and you're done for defense. The rest of the time you can focus on your own offensive game. Furthermore, Rampage's opponents have psychological advantages, such as, a). I can kick all I want, b). I don't need to be worried about defensive foot work as much, because I won't need to switch back & forth from stagger stance to square stance (in case I need to sprawl). Also, we all saw Alves slowly defeating himself with apprehension against GSP as the rounds progressed. 

I really wished Rampage would take advantage of his strength & power and at least re-implement "regular" TD's. A one dimensional fighter has a certain set of worries, but a two dimensional fighter, the worries don't just double, they quadruple, plus/minus a multitude.

Rampage's hilarious personality is the sole reason I'm interested in TUF 10.


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## wukkadb (Jan 1, 2007)

jcal said:


> I think he went to slam Forrest but forrest new what was coming and opened his guard on his way up and stopped it from happening.


Oh ya, forgot about that. :thumb02:


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