# Cormier has never faced a elite MMA wrestler.



## the bad guy 13 (Oct 24, 2012)

Can we please wait until Cormier actually fights a top wrestler in MMA until we proclaim him to be a wrestling God? 

Yes, Cormier has great wrestling credentials. But wrestling in MMA is different than wrestling in a pure wrestling competition. Stance is different, set ups are different, striking plays a very big role, etc. A wrestler with better credentials does not always outwrestle his opponents in MMA. Cormier has dominated and easily outwrestled everyone he has faced so far, but he has yet to fight someone who could be considered an elite MMA wrestler. Let's look at the fighters with best wrestling he has faced so far:

- Barnett. Cormier dominated him wrestling wise. But Barnett was outwrestled many times before, including by non-wrestlers. Nog took him down in both fights. Even a kickboxer in Crocop took him down from the clinch and controlled him on the ground. Barnett's takedown defense percentage on fightmetric is 54%.

- Monson. He was a very solid wrestler and an ADCC champion. But again he is not someone that most would consider an elite wrestler. He was past his prime when he fought Cormier too. Monson's takedown defense is 66% according to fightmetric.

- Henderson. Despite awesome credentials on paper he was outwrestled in MMA many times. He was taken down by Shogun, Machida, Anderson Silva. Jake Shields took him down at will. Henderon's takedown defense is 58%.

Now let's compare these three with Jon Jones. Jones' takedown defense is 96% according to fightmetric. He was taken down only once in his entire MMA career, when Gustafsson took him by surprise, and he got up seconds later.

Jones has faced more and better wrestlers in MMA than Cormier has. He faced Rashad Evans, Chael Sonnen, Vladimir Matyushenko, Matt Hamill, Glover Teixeira and Ryan Bader. He outwrestled all of them, took all of them down, and wasn't taken down by any of them.

Jones has faced the better mma wrestlers and destroyed them and a fight with dc will be no diffrent. whos with me on this one? cormier should face rashad first as a measuring stick cause a coffee boy and a 45 yr old man shouldnt warrant a title shot.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

Sorry but this thread is nonsense. He just fought an olympic wrestler. Case closed.


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## the bad guy 13 (Oct 24, 2012)

DonRifle said:


> Sorry but this thread is nonsense. He just fought an olympic wrestler. Case closed.



yea he just beat an olympic wrestler who is 45 and whos best days were way past him and only relies on his right hand to win. what iam trying to say is even though his base is wrestling he has become a 1 dimensional brawler who was outwrestled by jake shields and taken down by shogun and anderson silva.


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## suspectchin (Apr 29, 2014)

lol at that closing the discussion. not only is henderson passed his prime and one dimensional these days, he was also ridiculously undersized in their fight. the strength advantage cormier had was a huge factor. henderson weighed in at under 200 pounds for crying out loud. he was smaller than some middleweights. that does not prove anything.

im not saying cormier doesnt have elite mma wrestling, but that fight didn't prove he does. i think he probably does have elite mma wrestling, but this is definitely worthy of a thread considering a lot of the ridiculous threads you see on forums these days. at least i found this one interesting enough to respond too.

i am interested in seeing how he does against an elite mma wrestler in jon jones because jones' bread and butter seems to be fighting wrestlers. people who think cormier will beat jones because he beat a 40 something year old extremely undersized henderson are funny.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

None of Jones' former opponents even compare to Daniel in wrestling ability, and he tops all of them in applying wrestling to MMA as well.

Cormier is _the_ elite MMA wrestler. When he fights another one, they are facing Cormier, not t'other way around. That includes Jones.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

So who are the mean wrestlers that DC has to face before you are sold on him? It's not like the division is stacked with them. DC is without a doubt the wrestler in MMA at this point of time.


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## systemdnb (Dec 7, 2008)

To the OP. He faces a mean wrestler in the gym everyday... MmmmHmmm what's that guys name. I can't seem to remember? CAIN


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

suspectchin said:


> lol at that closing the discussion. not only is henderson passed his prime and one dimensional these days, he was also ridiculously undersized in their fight. the strength advantage cormier had was a huge factor. henderson weighed in at under 200 pounds for crying out loud. he was smaller than some middleweights. that does not prove anything.
> 
> im not saying cormier doesnt have elite mma wrestling, but that fight didn't prove he does. i think he probably does have elite mma wrestling, but this is definitely worthy of a thread considering a lot of the ridiculous threads you see on forums these days. at least i found this one interesting enough to respond too.
> 
> i am interested in seeing how he does against an elite mma wrestler in jon jones because jones' bread and butter seems to be fighting wrestlers. people who think cormier will beat jones because he beat a 40 something year old extremely undersized henderson are funny.


People think Cormier will beat Jones because he's an amazing fighter. His wrestling is some of the best in MMA right now and it's being talked about a lot because how he rag dolled Hendo, but his ability has been known for a while now. The fact is, he ran through Bigfoot (a title contender at HW), he ran through Barnett, he ran through Mir, he ran through Roy, he ran through heavyweights when he himself is a LHW. The only reason Cormier didn't get a title shot at HW is because Cain is his friend and they don't want to fight, so he dropped to LHW.

You're looking at a guy that beat the hell out of the HW division, who is now 2-0 after dropping wight and made both fights look like he was fighting cans, and one of those was a legend and always dangerous Henderson.

His ability to rag doll people like crazy is just what is on everyone's brain right now because of his last fight. However, many of us think he will beat Jones or at the least deserves a title shot because of how good his all around fighting ability is - he's an amazing fighter and he will beat Jones if they fought, I have no doubt about it.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

systemdnb said:


> To the OP. He faces a mean wrestler in the gym everyday... MmmmHmmm what's that guys name. I can't seem to remember? CAIN


Not just facing, Cormier is Cain's wrestling coach. That's right, he's teaching Cain how to wrestle.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

*Jon Jones Taken Down by 134-Pound Brazilian Journalist Mario Filho*



> Jon Jones has thwarted takedowns from every UFC opponent, but in the end, it was a 134-pound journalist who finally put the light heavyweight champ on his back.
> 
> Mario Filho, a journalist in Brazil, is known for challenging MMA champions to special sparring sessions on "Senseinocao" ("Clueless"), a segment featured on the program Sensei SporTV.
> 
> ...







http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1117743-jon-jones-taken-down-by-134-pound-brazilian-journalist


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Rauno said:


> Not just facing, Cormier is Cain's wrestling coach. That's right, he's teaching Cain how to wrestle.


Cormier and Cain evolve wrestling while Jones uses reach to win his fights, Cormier is going to school jones unless the eye pokes and teap kicks somehow bother Cormier.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

While Barnett is not an elite level pure wrestler, he has amazing grappling skills and is a very big man.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

M.C said:


> While Barnett is not an elite level pure wrestler, he has amazing grappling skills and is a very big man.


Also this slam happened in the 4th round in a HW fight. Once DC get's a good grip on Jones, he's going flying.


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## SM33 (Sep 22, 2009)

M.C said:


> People think Cormier will beat Jones because he's an amazing fighter. His wrestling is some of the best in MMA right now and it's being talked about a lot because how he rag dolled Hendo, but his ability has been known for a while now. The fact is, he ran through Bigfoot (a title contender at HW), he ran through Barnett, he ran through Mir, he ran through Roy, he ran through heavyweights when he himself is a LHW. The only reason Cormier didn't get a title shot at HW is because Cain is his friend and they don't want to fight, so he dropped to LHW.
> 
> You're looking at a guy that beat the hell out of the HW division, who is now 2-0 after dropping wight and made both fights look like he was fighting cans, and one of those was a legend and always dangerous Henderson.
> 
> His ability to rag doll people like crazy is just what is on everyone's brain right now because of his last fight. However, many of us think he will beat Jones or at the least deserves a title shot because of how good his all around fighting ability is - he's an amazing fighter and he will beat Jones if they fought, I have no doubt about it.


This. Cormier's wrestling is his forte, but I always thought of him as one of the better strikers at HW too. His disciplines are so good and well combined, Cormier is just an awesome fighter.

First time I saw Cormier fight was against Monson. I expected the grappling pedigree, and ok Monson wasn't a big deal at that point, but I was gobsmacked by Daniel's stand up game. It was sublime. Then his coming out party happened with the Bigfoot KO, rest is history.

Cormier is much more than a wrestler.


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## systemdnb (Dec 7, 2008)

Rauno said:


> Not just facing, Cormier is Cain's wrestling coach. That's right, he's teaching Cain how to wrestle.


I know that lol. I mean he's wrestling with guys way bigger in size and rag dolling them. I'm sure Cain has showed Daniel a few pointers on the MMA side of it too though. Daniel will rag doll just bout everyone in division besides Rashad. And that is debatable.


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## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

I really hope Bones f*cks Cormier up. I've got all the respect in the world for Cormiers ability but he was too many fans on here. I always seem to go for thedude who gets the most shit. Bones is definitely one of those. Especially onhere.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Dr Gonzo said:


> I really hope Bones f*cks Cormier up. I've got all the respect in the world for Cormiers ability but he was too many fans on here. I always seem to go for thedude who gets the most shit. Bones is definitely one of those. Especially onhere.


I'm actually not a big Cormier fan, don't dislike the guy or anything but for example I wanted Henderson to knock him out as I'm a Henderson fan. I'm just being realistic, Cormier is a nightmare for anyone at LHW and Jones is no exception.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

I haven't seen that many Cormier fans neither tbh. :dunno:


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## suspectchin (Apr 29, 2014)

M.C said:


> People think Cormier will beat Jones because he's an amazing fighter. His wrestling is some of the best in MMA right now and it's being talked about a lot because how he rag dolled Hendo, but his ability has been known for a while now. The fact is, he ran through Bigfoot (a title contender at HW), he ran through Barnett, he ran through Mir, he ran through Roy, he ran through heavyweights when he himself is a LHW. The only reason Cormier didn't get a title shot at HW is because Cain is his friend and they don't want to fight, so he dropped to LHW.
> 
> You're looking at a guy that beat the hell out of the HW division, who is now 2-0 after dropping wight and made both fights look like he was fighting cans, and one of those was a legend and always dangerous Henderson.
> 
> His ability to rag doll people like crazy is just what is on everyone's brain right now because of his last fight. However, many of us think he will beat Jones or at the least deserves a title shot because of how good his all around fighting ability is - he's an amazing fighter and he will beat Jones if they fought, I have no doubt about it.


i am referring to the few people who said "i have no doubt that cormier will rag doll jones now!" after he rag dolled henderson. it was just a ridiculous "confirmation" in my eyes. especially considering henderson was smaller than some middleweights in that fight. thinking cormier will beat jones isnt a crazy prediction, but the few letting that fight in particular confirm it is funny to me. let me just say, if someone was convinced before his fight against henderson, fair enough, but if that is the fight that finally convinced them, well.. to each their own i guess. you can say some just think its because cormier is an amazing fighter, but there are others who literally used that fight as the turning point for them. if they had said its proven that cormier has the conditioning to fight at 205 and thats what confirmed it for them, sure, but some were referring to how effective his wrestling was against henderson.

as you can see, i didnt even necessarily disagree that he is elite in my post. i believe cormier is an elite mma wrestler and that wrestling combined with his strength at 205 is a great combination. i just want to point out that its not like the original poster is being completely irrational by saying he hasnt fought any other elite mma wrestlers. its an interesting note to look at. training with cain helps though im sure. i want to see if his overwhelming strength and wrestling is just as effective against excellent wrestlers. could be, but until we see it, it's fun to debate about.

im interested in seeing how he looks against jones. jon has always been great at neutralizing great wrestlers and his take down defense has always been spot on other than being surprised by gus' take down ability. can cormier do the same to jones that he has done to others?


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## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

M.C said:


> I'm actually not a big Cormier fan, don't dislike the guy or anything but for example I wanted Henderson to knock him out as I'm a Henderson fan. I'm just being realistic, Cormier is a nightmare for anyone at LHW and Jones is no exception.


Oh I agree he will be a nightmare for Jones. No doubt there at all. I don't dislike him either.  How the hell can I dislike someone I don't know. Lol. I just like sticking up for people. I'm trying to avoid the word underdog here. Is Jones the underdog? Would be interesting to see some odds on the fight. Also, I'm a big Jones fan. Love the way he fights. Cain would f*ck 'em all up though. He's my boy.


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## 3DLee (Aug 30, 2006)

Bones vs Cormier will be a fight where I don't care who wins but just hope somebody gets finished. I don't like either fighter. I enjoy watching both fight, but im not a fan. Simply because after you beat one of my fav fighters, I cannot be a fan of yours. I dont know why. But since Jones beat Chael (of course he did, no surprise) and Cormier manhandled Hendo (damn!) then yeah, I hope somehow they double KO each other.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

suspectchin said:


> i am referring to the few people who said "i have no doubt that cormier will rag doll jones now!" after he rag dolled henderson. it was just a ridiculous "confirmation" in my eyes. especially considering henderson was smaller than some middleweights in that fight. thinking cormier will beat jones isnt a crazy prediction, but the few letting that fight in particular confirm it is funny to me. let me just say, if someone was convinced before his fight against henderson, fair enough, but if that is the fight that finally convinced them, well.. to each their own i guess.
> 
> as you can see, i didnt even necessarily disagree that he is elite in my post. i believe cormier is an elite mma wrestler and that wrestling combined with his strength at 205 is a great combination. i just want to point out that its not like the original poster is being completely irrational by saying he hasnt fought any other elite mma wrestlers. its an interesting note to look at. training with cain helps though im sure. i want to see if his overwhelming strength and wrestling is just as effective against excellent wrestlers. could be, but until we see it, it's fun to debate about.
> 
> im interested in seeing how he looks against jones. jon has always been great at neutralizing great wrestlers and his take down defense has always been spot on other than being surprised by gus' take down ability. can cormier do the same to jones that he has done to others?


The reason why beating Hendo that way is impressive is because he didn't just out wrestle Henderson, he threw him around like a child. Henderson is very strong for his size and has a solid base and is a solid grappler. Nobody has ever manhandled him like that before in all his 42 fights and he's fought people bigger than he is before.

He has fought bigger guys than Hendo and threw them around just like that, look at the GIF I posted where he threw Barnett around easily. Barnett is an excellent grappler, his bread and butter is to get close, dirty box you, control you, toss you to the ground beat you up, he's a grappler through and through even standing he wants to get against the cage where he can put his hands on you. Cormier tossed him - easily. 

The moment Cormier gets his hands on Jones, he is going to toss him. When he isn't tossing him and it's on the feet, Cormier also shines. He's beaten everybody he's ever stood with. Think about Bigfoot for a moment, he's an extremely hard guy to KO. Mark Hunt couldn't do it, Overeem couldn't do it, Browne couldn't do it, Fedor couldn't do it, Arlovski couldn't do it, and he beat all of these guys standing except for Hunt but it was a war. Only two guys have destroyed Bigfoot standing and took him out - Cormier and Cain, and it's not a coincidence they train together consistently. 

Cormier has ridicious core strength and wrestling ability, he can toss huge great grapplers like Barnett, he can throw Henderson around like he's never been thrown around before, and he can KO guys who are really hard to KO and he's always gotten the upper hand when striking, be it Roy or Bigfoot or Hendo when they did exchange. He's an all around excellent fighter and he is going to be the LHW champion.

With all that said you are right in that people shouldn't go only on the Henderson win, one win isn't enough to see how good a guy is. It's all his other wins combined that make him a legitimate threat to any LHW and IMO the favorite going into a title fight with either Jones or Gus.


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## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

Rauno said:


> I haven't seen that many Cormier fans neither tbh. :dunno:


Neither? 

There seems to be loads of Comier fans! I already knew MC wasn't his biggest fan. Everyone seems to be all over Comiers dick. Im not saying its not warranted, but all people are talking about is how Comier is gonna beat Bones with ease and how good his wrestling is and how he's destroyed everyone. Thus making them appear to be Cormier fans. That, combined with the universal hatred for Bones makes me wanna stick up for the dude. I'm pretty sure not that many people think Cormier is gonna have his way with Bones but when so many prominent members go for one dude its hard to argue right? Well, for me, I'd say its gonna be a hell of a contest, going both ways but I can never count out someone as unpredictable and talented as Bones. I really can't pick a certain winner yet it seems so easy for some.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

All i remember is reading DC doesn't deserve JBJ just yet and that he got a lot of flack (from me as well) before he moved down to 205 and talking about JBJ in general.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Dr Gonzo said:


> Oh I agree he will be a nightmare for Jones. No doubt there at all. I don't dislike him either. How the hell can I dislike someone I don't know. Lol. I just like sticking up for people. I'm trying to avoid the word underdog here. Is Jones the underdog? Would be interesting to see some odds on the fight. Also, I'm a big Jones fan. Love the way he fights. Cain would f*ck 'em all up though. He's my boy.





Dr Gonzo said:


> Neither?
> 
> There seems to be loads of Comier fans! I already knew MC wasn't his biggest fan. Everyone seems to be all over Comiers dick. Im not saying its not warranted, but all people are talking about is how Comier is gonna beat Bones with ease and how good his wrestling is and how he's destroyed everyone. Thus making them appear to be Cormier fans. That, combined with the universal hatred for Bones makes me wanna stick up for the dude. I'm pretty sure not that many people think Cormier is gonna have his way with Bones but when so many prominent members go for one dude its hard to argue right? Well, for me, I'd say its gonna be a hell of a contest, going both ways but I can never count out someone as unpredictable and talented as Bones. I really can't pick a certain winner yet it seems so easy for some.


The big fight in MMA right now to me is Cormier vs. the title holder, which happens to be Jones right now. If Gus was the champion, I'd be posting about how Cormier will beat Gus. Cormier is the #1 contender or close to it, and it's inevitable that he gets a shot at the belt. Since Jones is the champion right now that's the fight people are discussing. 

No doubt Jones gets a lot of hate though. I can't speak for anyone else but I'd have these same thoughts regardless of who he is fighting right now. Like take weidman for example, I'm not really a fan of his. Don't dislike the guy, but I recognize his talent and I think he's going to beat Machida and hold that belt for a long time, and I'm a machida fan. I just try to be as realistic as possible.


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## systemdnb (Dec 7, 2008)

Rauno said:


> I haven't seen that many Cormier fans neither tbh. :dunno:


I'm one. I was impressed when he beat Barnette in Strikeforce.


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## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

M.C said:


> The big fight in MMA right now to me is Cormier vs. the title holder, which happens to be Jones right now. If Gus was the champion, I'd be posting about how Cormier will beat Gus. Cormier is the #1 contender or close to it, and it's inevitable that he gets a shot at the belt. Since Jones is the champion right now that's the fight people are discussing.
> 
> No doubt Jones gets a lot of hate though. I can't speak for anyone else but I'd have these same thoughts regardless of who he is fighting right now. Like take weidman for example, I'm not really a fan of his. Don't dislike the guy, but I recognize his talent and I think he's going to beat Machida and hold that belt for a long time, and I'm a machida fan. I just try to be as realistic as possible.


I agree Comier is the dude who needs to fight for the title and has the best chance of beating Jones. No doubt there. It just seems to me that there is a distinct lack of people giving Jones any chance at all which is a little bewildering considering his unpredictably and talent. Like I said before, I have no feelings towards any fighter. They can seem pleasant or seem distasteful but to gather an opinion on any fighter when you only have a few interviews to go by seems a little weird. Its when people use words like hate which blows my mind. Im as realistic as the next guy. Comier will easily be Bones toughest test to date. Its just the way people completely write off Jones that slightly befuddles me.


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## the bad guy 13 (Oct 24, 2012)

LOL at the peeps saying cormier will rag doll jones cause he rag dolled a 45 yr old 1 demensional 199 lb. brawler. I tell you what if it was jones fighting hendo, he would have finished him in 1 round ala sonnen.


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## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

M.C said:


> You're looking at a guy that beat the hell out of the HW division, who is now 2-0 after dropping wight and *made both fights look like he was fighting cans*, and one of those was a legend and always dangerous Henderson.


Actually, in one fight *he WAS fighting a can* :laugh: I think it's weird people actually even mention that fight. UFC couldn't find someone on their roster to step up on 10 days notice when Evans pulled out, so they took a guy noone has ever heard of from a fast food drive thru, tried their hardest to promote some supposed beef between him and Cormier, because they happened to have attended the same wrestling class years ago and put him without much training against an elite UFC fighter.

It's not Cormier's fault, but people shouldn't pretend that it was a real fight.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Voiceless said:


> Actually, in one fight *he WAS fighting a can* :laugh: I think it's weird people actually even mention that fight. UFC couldn't find someone on their roster to step up on 10 days notice when Evans pulled out, so they took a guy noone has ever heard of from a fast food drive thru, tried their hardest to promote some supposed beef between him and Cormier, because they happened to have attended the same wrestling class years ago and put him without much training against an elite UFC fighter.
> 
> It's not Cormier's fault, but people shouldn't pretend that it was a real fight.


There's no doubt Patrick didn't deserve to fight Cormier, that whole set up was silly. The thing is, Henderson put up as much of a fight as Patrick did. All Henderson did was survive until he couldn't survive anymore.

What I'm wondering is if Cormier will wait for the title shot or if he will fight again. I'd like to see him fight Rashad as was intended if he plans to fight again.



Dr Gonzo said:


> I agree Comier is the dude who needs to fight for the title and has the best chance of beating Jones. No doubt there. It just seems to me that there is a distinct lack of people giving Jones any chance at all which is a little bewildering considering his unpredictably and talent. Like I said before, I have no feelings towards any fighter. They can seem pleasant or seem distasteful but to gather an opinion on any fighter when you only have a few interviews to go by seems a little weird. Its when people use words like hate which blows my mind. Im as realistic as the next guy. Comier will easily be Bones toughest test to date. Its just the way people completely write off Jones that slightly befuddles me.


I think most people know Jones has a chance, he's a great fighter. It's just some people feel Cormier has a better chance at beating Jones than Jones has at beating Cormier. I have it at about 70/30 for Cormier.


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Cormier ragdolling Anthony Johnson, Rashad, Gustafsson, Jon Jones, Teixeira or another top wrestler would be extremely impressive.

But, what happens if Cormier can't get the takedown and its a stand up fight?


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## the bad guy 13 (Oct 24, 2012)

Rauno said:


> Also this slam happened in the 4th round in a HW fight. Once DC get's a good grip on Jones, he's going flying.


DC will not even close the distance against jones. jones will keep him at range with kneecap kicks and standing elbows.



















jones is also a monster in the clinch himself.


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## the bad guy 13 (Oct 24, 2012)

systemdnb said:


> I know that lol. I mean he's wrestling with guys way bigger in size and rag dolling them. I'm sure Cain has showed Daniel a few pointers on the MMA side of it too though. *Daniel will rag doll just bout everyone in division besides Rashad*. And that is debatable.


wtf are you talking about? rashad? he got handled by jones rather easily. rashad couldnt take bones down. but peeps were saying before they fought that rashad was a better wrestler and his speed would be too much for bones. the same they are hyping DC but when it comes down for them too fight i wouldnt be too surprised if DC *COULD NOT* take bones down. jones arsenal is too diverse for DC whose striking is mediocre at best. DC vs Bones will look like bones vs rashad.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

M.C said:


>



I love the way Cormier just throws people... what he did here and to henderson are hardly even slams, just launches them up in the air, not even worrying about staying tight since he knows people will take some time to reorientate.


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## suspectchin (Apr 29, 2014)

M.C said:


> The reason why beating Hendo that way is impressive is because he didn't just out wrestle Henderson, he threw him around like a child. Henderson is very strong for his size and has a solid base and is a solid grappler. Nobody has ever manhandled him like that before in all his 42 fights and he's fought people bigger than he is before.
> 
> He has fought bigger guys than Hendo and threw them around just like that, look at the GIF I posted where he threw Barnett around easily. Barnett is an excellent grappler, his bread and butter is to get close, dirty box you, control you, toss you to the ground beat you up, he's a grappler through and through even standing he wants to get against the cage where he can put his hands on you. Cormier tossed him - easily.
> 
> ...


you're mostly on point, but i gotta argue with the henderson note. henderson has fought bigger guys before when he was younger. i think saying henderson is strong for his size is just a way to make cormier's performance look more impressive. at the end of the day, he rag dolled a guy in his 40s that is smaller than a lot of middleweights. wasnt henderson also off of trt for that fight? correct me if im wrong. henderson may have fought bigger guys in the past, but the henderson then and the henderson now are two different fighters. he may have a solid grappling base on paper, but he hasnt looked like a good wrestler in a long time. its not hard to out wrestle him these days. cormier did what he should do against an under sized guy who is on the verge of retirement, and people can be impressed and say that he "rag dolled a game world class wrestler", but im not going to be impressed by it in the grand scheme of things when considering henderson's place in modern mma. cormier only rag dolled a "world class wrestler" on paper. thats why i take that performance in particular with a grain of salt. we can agree to disagree.

like you said though, cormier has slammed big guys like barnett which is very impressive, i wont dispute that at all. hes a strong guy and even stronger at 205. he looks to be the top wrestler of the division from what we have seen so far. i still just want to see how his wrestling looks against a game excellent mma wrestler. even if he has the advantage, it doesnt mean he will do whatever he wants to them. jones is the guy who like i said neutralizes wrestlers. when he is expecting the take down, his defense is in top form and he's great at keeping his range. if cormier gets a hold of him, maybe he will manage to throw him around, but he has to get a hold of him first. jones is also no joke in the clinch too. win or lose, i highly doubt it will look anything like cormier vs. henderson. i would almost bet the house on it. i wouldnt though because anything can happen in mma. it wouldnt be the first time i was wrong.

standing, its up in the air, but jones' utilization of his reach is unreal. anyone can have a lot of reach, but jones knows exactly how to use it to frustrate his opponents, even when they are exceptional on their feet. i think if big john is the referee, that will help cormier's chances on the feet. jones may not be able to stick his hand in his face all the time.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

suspectchin said:


> you're mostly on point, but i gotta argue with the henderson note. henderson has fought bigger guys before when he was younger. i think saying henderson is strong for his size is just a way to make cormier's performance look more impressive. at the end of the day, he rag dolled a guy in his 40s that is smaller than a lot of middleweights. wasnt henderson also off of trt for that fight? correct me if im wrong. henderson may have fought bigger guys in the past, but the henderson then and the henderson now are two different fighters. he may have a solid grappling base on paper, but he hasnt looked like a good wrestler in a long time. its not hard to out wrestle him these days. cormier did what he should do against an under sized guy who is on the verge of retirement, and people can be impressed and say that he "rag dolled a game world class wrestler", but im not going to be impressed by it in the grand scheme of things when considering henderson's place in modern mma. cormier only rag dolled a "world class wrestler" on paper. thats why i take that performance in particular with a grain of salt. we can agree to disagree.
> 
> like you said though, cormier has slammed big guys like barnett which is very impressive, i wont dispute that at all. hes a strong guy and even stronger at 205. he looks to be the top wrestler of the division from what we have seen so far. i still just want to see how his wrestling looks against a game excellent mma wrestler. even if he has the advantage, it doesnt mean he will do whatever he wants to them. jones is the guy who like i said neutralizes wrestlers. when he is expecting the take down, his defense is in top form and he's great at keeping his range. if cormier gets a hold of him, maybe he will manage to throw him around, but he has to get a hold of him first. jones is also no joke in the clinch too. win or lose, i highly doubt it will look anything like cormier vs. henderson. i would almost bet the house on it. i wouldnt though because anything can happen in mma. it wouldnt be the first time i was wrong.
> 
> standing, its up in the air, but jones' utilization of his reach is unreal. anyone can have a lot of reach, but jones knows exactly how to use it to frustrate his opponents, even when they are exceptional on their feet. i think if big john is the referee, that will help cormier's chances on the feet. jones may not be able to stick his hand in his face all the time.


We will just have to agree to disagree about Henderson.

It won't be as easy as it was against Henderson, no. There was 0 challenge in that fight. Jones is a great fighter and champion who will put up a better effort. However, Cormier will still take him down at will when he gets his hands on him in my opinion. You also have to factor in that even though Barnett is really big, he's also an excellent grappler who is great in the clinch. His whole game is getting his hands on people, and Cormier destroyed him in the grappling department. 

As for the striking, Cormier has faced solid strikers and has always looked better there. He beat Roy standing, Bigfoot standing, Henderson standing (for the little bit of time it was standing), etc. He's very fast and has a lot of power, and uses more than just his hands. He's also one of the only guys who put Bigfoot away with his hands, not even Hunt/Overeem/Fedor/Browne etc could beat him standing (hunt beat him but couldn't KO him and it was a back and forth war). Point being, I don't think Cormier has too much to worry about in the striking department. It Jone's main advantage but I honestly don't think it's a big one.


----------



## tankie64 (Jan 22, 2009)

DonRifle said:


> Sorry but this thread is nonsense. He just fought an olympic wrestler. Case closed.


Agreed


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## tankie64 (Jan 22, 2009)

Well said


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

DonRifle said:


> Sorry but this thread is nonsense. He just fought an olympic wrestler. Case closed.


Hendo was even outwrestled by Shogun. Shield completely dominated him. And isn't he just a greco-roman style anyway, not full freestyle? 

The mma wrestling I've seen out of him is at best mediocre. I truly believe any good wrestler in the UFC is going to nullify DC's wrestling game, in fact, I won't be surprised if he gets outwrestled by some. And credentials really don't mean much. GSP has none at all, and dominated the WW div. on the ground. 

The OP is correct, that DC hasn't face an elite mma wrestler. As much as I like Dan, he's an old MW, fresh off TRT, who's been dominated by natural WW's on the ground. I'm sorry, it just doesn't count.


----------



## GDPofDRB (Apr 18, 2013)

DonRifle said:


> Sorry but this thread is nonsense.


Another dingle berry thread for the handful of guys who refuse to get it about DC to cling to.


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## Andrus (Oct 18, 2011)

Wow. I just had to see what this thread was about. Seems the title was correct. and also wrong as he did just fought and dominated Hendo, and manhandled Josh Barnett in the Strikeforce HW Grand-Prix.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

When you consider the OP... nothing really shocks me anymore. I'm not sure if he's just a troll from sherdog getting LULZ at his topics, or if there are people out there really like that.


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

You guys... 

You get sucked in by this guy every time. :sarcastic09:


----------



## AlanS (Jun 16, 2009)

But its so much fun Killz

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Life B Ez (Jan 23, 2010)

Killz said:


> You guys...
> 
> You get sucked in by this guy every time. :sarcastic09:


I don't know what that's supposed to mean killz he makes valid points.

You know what D.C hasn't had to deal with either? A brazilian always putting their fist in his face.

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Killz (Oct 5, 2009)

Life B Ez said:


> You know what D.C hasn't had to deal with either? A brazilian always putting their fist in his face.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


hahahahahaha! Well played! :thumb02:


----------



## Stun Gun (Oct 24, 2012)

Killz said:


> You guys...
> 
> You get sucked in by this guy every time. :sarcastic09:


Its hard not too. Im not sure if he's trolling or just lost


----------



## Voiceless (Nov 8, 2010)

Life B Ez said:


> You know what D.C hasn't had to deal with either? A brazilian always putting their fist in his face.


That'a like he hasn't been in MMA at all so far!


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

It is trolling when you say Josh Barnett is not an elite MMA wrestler...


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Barnett's a grappler more than he is wrestler.

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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

Is Greko Roman not basically grappling? I always thought of Couture as a grappler because of his cage work.


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## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

DonRifle said:


> Is Greko Roman not basically grappling? I always thought of Couture as a grappler because of his cage work.


Thats more wrestling than grappling. Grappling is groundwork mainly.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

I think it should probably be referred to as stand up grappling or ground grappling, because to grapple is basically to struggle to improve to a dominant position right?


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Cormier has faced *far* better wrestlers throughout his career.

There's only one *elite* wrestler in the UFC. And we all know who he is.

OP needs to take of those dumb spectacles.


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## Dr Gonzo (May 27, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> OP needs to take *of* those dumb spectacles.


Yeah he does. :thumb02:


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

The captain of the Olympic wrestling team, and the HW champions wrestling coach has never faced an elite wrestler.


Seems legit.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Who are the elite MMA wrestlers?
Rashad? that would be a fun fight but Rashad's best chance would be to keep his distance and try to out strike.

Chael? I thought so before the Jones fight.

Davis? To me, Rashad burst that bubble.

Jones? ...well that's the fight we all want to see but I would bet big that jones tries his best to not let it be a wrestling test.

Y'all cut the OP some slack troll threads are the most fun :thumb02:


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> The captain of the Olympic wrestling team, and the HW champions wrestling coach has never faced an elite wrestler.
> 
> 
> Seems legit.


But..but.. he hasn't faced the NCAA Division I Wrestler, probably a guy who could comfortably fight at the weight class below in Rashad Evans. :confused02:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

All the guy's ever done is beat the bums they put in front of him. 

I'll be convinced when he beats Ben Askren


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

oldfan said:


> All the guy's ever done is beat the bums they put in front of him.
> 
> I'll be convinced when he beats Ben Askren


Not bums, but not world beaters either.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

I just do't get how people think Hendo is a top MMA wrestler?? Has he ever been?? Even on TRT hasn't he been dominated on the ground? And isn't he a natural MW? Wasn't he dominated on the ground by a WW? Didn't he continually get mounted by Shogun? 

Then he's fresh off TRT and people think this is the best wrestler DC could have faced at LHW?? 

Now I'm also noticing no one actually directly responds to this. They just keep citing that he beat an olympic wrestler, he manhandled an olympic wrestler. 

Can't anyone just let the emotions go, and respond to the above? :dunno:


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Not bums, but not world beaters either.


I get what you're saying but who out there are that much better wrestlers than Hendo in the 205 division? Rashad Evans? Phil Davis? Some people act like the division is stacked with top notch wrestlers.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Rauno said:


> I get what you're saying but who out there are that much better wrestlers than Hendo in the 205 division? Rashad Evans? Phil Davis? Some people act like the division is stacked with top notch wrestlers.


Absolutely, I would pick any of those to dominate Hendo on the ground. I mean if Shogun can mount him, what do you think they would do? Hendo is just not a good freestyle wrestler, and has never depended on that in his career. His game has always been about power shots. 

I'm trying to think of some LHW's he would actually dominate on the ground. Maybe that's the more appropriate question.


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## the bad guy 13 (Oct 24, 2012)

Killz said:


> You guys...
> 
> You get sucked in by this guy every time. :sarcastic09:


why you gotta hate? 



Voiceless said:


> That'a like he hasn't been in MMA at all so far!


u wot mate?



MMA-Sportsman said:


> It is trolling when you say Josh Barnett is not an elite MMA wrestler...


barnett is a grappler, hes defensive wrestling sucks. he got taken down ad controlled by big nog and cro cop two non wreslers.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

"Elite MMA wrestling" is such a cop out and gray area. There is no way to credential that.

Sonnen can't have elite MMA wrestling if he keeps getting triangled while in top position right? You see MMA wrestling has to include BJJ defense because we are talking MMA wrestling, not just Grappling by itself... because it is of course called MMA wrestling where BJJ offense and defense has to be taken under consideration. Or maybe he does have elite MMA wrestling because he dominates most with takedowns and top position GNP.

Munoz doesn't have elite wrestling either.. I mean look what Weidman and Mousasi did to him on the ground... even though he's owned a number of his opponents on the ground as well as being the former Blackhouse wrestling coach and coaching an vast number of UFC and UFC caliber fighters.

Daniel Cormier doesn't have elite MMA wrestling obviously... because he hasn't faced a fighter who has elite MMA wrestling either right.. and even if he beat an MMA fighter who has elite MMA wrestling and loses his next to a wrestler he would no longer have elite MMA wrestling according to the way some people see it...

Elite MMA wrestling and P4P are in the same ball park IMO.

It's all based on your last 2 fights how well they were matched up, how close it was and how effective his wrestling was.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> ...It's all based on your last 2 fights how well they were matched up, how close it was and how effective his wrestling was.


So then by those standards, how would you rate Hendo going into the Cormier fight?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Calminian said:


> So then by those standards, how would you rate Hendo going into the Cormier fight?


I would rate Hendo as being in the twilight of his carreer. And that any win over a top ten fighter at this point is a gift... I think Dan is a great novelty right now and he will never be a UFC champion. But I like the guy as a fan.

Even his win over Shogun isn't big in my book at this point so that doesn't raise Dans stock at all in regards to elitness.... seriously Shogun is 6-7 since 2007.


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## prospect (Mar 26, 2014)

I didn't read the thread.. but the title is just absurd.. that's like saying that junior dos Santos never fought an elite striker ( bad example but you get my point ) . People keep trying to find holes in cormier... but you can't do anything but speculate cause his run in the ufc especially and mma generally was flawless ( so far ) .


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## AlphaDawg (Nov 16, 2009)

To be fair, there are no elite MMA wrestlers at HW aside from Cain. And obviously that doesn't mean much since Cormier and Cain are friends. And there aren't really any elite MMA wrestlers at LHW either. All they have is Rashad and of course Jones. He was supposed to fight Rashad, the second best MMA wrestler he could possibly fight, but the fight fell through. He then faced two wrestlers in a row and he handled them both easily. Granted they're not the best MMA wrestlers but he dominated them like he was supposed to.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

_RIVAL_ said:


> I would rate Hendo as being in the twilight of his carreer. And that any win over a top ten fighter at this point is a gift... I think Dan is a great novelty right now and he will never be a UFC champion. But I like the guy as a fan.
> 
> Even his win over Shogun isn't big in my book at this point so that doesn't raise Dans stock at all in regards to elitness.... seriously Shogun is 6-7 since 2007.


This is pretty much where I'm at, and then add to that that he's fresh off TRT. Those who constantly keep referring to Hendo as a 'wrestler' are simple being dishonest, or are not familiar with Henderson. He's probably one of the weakest grapplers in the LHW division. There may be some weaker ones, but he's definitely on the lower end, especially postTRT.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Absolutely, I would pick any of those to dominate Hendo on the ground. * I mean if Shogun can mount him, what do you think they would do?* Hendo is just not a good freestyle wrestler, and has never depended on that in his career. His game has always been about power shots.
> 
> I'm trying to think of some LHW's he would actually dominate on the ground. Maybe that's the more appropriate question.


You can't really use this as a valdi point. All skills go down the drain when you're gassed. 

Has DC EVER been in trouble in the wrestling department in his MMA career?


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Rauno said:


> You can't really use this as a valdi point. All skills go down the drain when you're gassed.
> 
> *Has DC EVER been in trouble in the wrestling department in his MMA career?*


There was that one time when bigfoot had him mounted


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Rauno said:


> You can't really use this as a valdi point. All skills go down the drain when you're gassed.
> 
> Has DC EVER been in trouble in the wrestling department in his MMA career?


Of course you can, as cardio is part of wrestling. If a guy gets gassed wrestling, that's what we call a bad wrestler. 

But if you think Hendo's is a top LHW grappler, then who in the LHW division do you think he outwrestles?


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

bah haha this freakin' thread kills me


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Woodenhead said:


> bah haha this freakin' thread kills me


So Woodenhead, where do you rate Hendo among the LHW's of the UFC is the grappling dept.? IOW's who is he a better grappler/wrestler than? This oughta be good.


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

I couldn't care less. I'm simply enjoying the goalpost-shifting and general comedic value of this thread.

Please, carry on.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Of course you can, as cardio is part of wrestling. If a guy gets gassed wrestling, that's what we call a bad wrestler.


You lost all credibility with this one.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Calminian said:


> Of course you can, as cardio is part of wrestling. If a guy gets gassed wrestling, that's what we call a bad wrestler.
> 
> But if you think Hendo's is a top LHW grappler, then who in the LHW division do you think he outwrestles?


I can tell you that Rashad, who is considered the best wrestler in the division other than Cormier, struggled a great deal to get Henderson down and out of like 7 attempts only managed to do it once and even then Henderson popped back up pretty quickly. Henderson was completely capable against Rashad in the grappling department, it was back and forth and ended in a split decision. Rashad wasn't even 5% as dominant as Cormier was against Henderson grappling.

Cormier rag dolled Henderson like he was a 2 year old, Rashad who is considered the best or second best wrestler at LHW could barely even manage a takedown in 3 rounds.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

M.C said:


> I can tell you that Rashad, who is considered the best wrestler in the division other than Cormier, struggled a great deal to get Henderson down and out of like 7 attempts only managed to do it once and even then Henderson popped back up pretty quickly. Henderson was completely capable against Rashad in the grappling department, it was back and forth and ended in a split decision. Rashad wasn't even 5% as dominant as Cormier was against Henderson grappling.
> 
> Cormier rag dolled Henderson like he was a 2 year old, Rashad who is considered the best or second best wrestler at LHW could barely even manage a takedown in 3 rounds.


Okay, so I'm picking up circular reasoning right way, along with a little mmath, which I knew would happen. Hendo "struggled" with Rashad, so therefore Rashad is hands down the best wrestler after DC, with Hendo in 3rd place . I get it. I see how your minds works. 

So, then, do you think then that Jake Shields is a better wrestler than Rashad at LHW? Do you agree that Shields completely dominated Hendo on the ground? I'm just using mmath here, as you did above. 

And since you've only pointed out a fight where Hendo was outwrestled, can you point to one where he outwrestled someone? I can recall he held Anderson on the ground for half a round. He got outwrestled and even smothered at times by Rampage. He got tooled by Shogun. Is Shogun a better wrestler than Rashad? 

And I guess then you feel Henderson is also a better wrestler than Davis, since according to you, he almost out-grappled Rashad? 

And do you think the TRT makes a difference? IOW's do you think all the TRT use that was going on, was just misinformed foolishness? 

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to hone in on your logic. You're one of the only guys I've heard imply Henderson is the 3rd best grappling LHW in the UFC (even off TRT). Can't wait to here you defend this.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

I'll bet if Jack Shields were still alive he could tell us who these mystery elite wrestlers are.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

oldfan said:


> I'll bet if Jack Shields were still alive he could tell us who these mystery elite wrestlers are.


Who's Jack Shields? :confused02:


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Calminian said:


> Okay, so I'm picking up circular reasoning right way, which I knew would happen. Hendo "struggled" with Rashad, so therefore Rashad is hands down the best wrestler. I get it.
> 
> Do you think then that Jack Shields is a better wrestler than Rashad at LHW? Do you agree that Shields completely dominated Hendo on the ground?
> 
> ...


Who is to say Shields isn't a better wrestler in MMA than Rashad? Have they fought to see which one can out grapple the other?

Also, my logic is simple - Rashad is considered the best wrestler in the division outside of Cormier or one of the best, and he struggled to handle Henderson in the grappling department. You asked who Henderson can out wrestle, well we know he's competitive with Rashad don't we? We know that his grappling skills are good enough to be considered a strong asset of his in fights. We know that had he not had as good of grappling skills that he has, Rashad would have taken him down every single time, right?

Knowing that Henderson is a capable wrestler, that he can fight other wrestlers and hold his own, knowing that he has been known as a strong wrestler for many years, watching Cormier throw him around like a child is quite impressive.

Also, nobody has - *ever* - dominated Henderson like that before in grappling. It's not a matter of just beating him, he threw him around like you could throw around a 5 year old and it's not even an exaggeration, he picked him up over his head and tossed him. Henderson went to run away and Cormier kicked his legs out and threw him to the ground, it was a completely one-sided manhandling.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Calminian said:


> Who's Jack Shields? :confused02:


....only if you tell me who the elite wrestlers are first


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

M.C said:


> ...Also, my logic is simple....


LOL, that's for sure. 



M.C said:


> Rashad is considered the best wrestler in the division outside of Cormier or one of the best, ....


Hmmmm. okay, so how many times did Rashad take down Jones? None? How many times did Gus take down Jones? Where do you go with mmath from there? Is Gus a better mma wrestler than Rashad? He must be, right? 

But you still insist the Hendo (fresh off TRT) is a better grappler than Gus. How does this work? 

Also, Tex manhandled Rampage on the the ground, and on the feet. Took Rampage down with ease. Yet Hendo struggled with him. And Bader easily outwrestled Rampage. Yet Hendo is better than those also? 

Please explain how this works. Just need to hear some simple logic.


----------



## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

I dont think what the thread startEr said is wrong. But I dont see what the point is? The guys he has fought he utterly dominated them with wrestling in a way we never see anyone get wrestled these days. 

I do love how Hendo is an old man but the 40 year old janitor on his list of top wrestlers Bonee has beat. That is hilarious.


----------



## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Calminian said:


> LOL, that's for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who said it is math? Are you having this much of a hard time understanding basic comprehension? Please, listen carefully this time.

I never once said Henderson is a better wrestler than Rashad, or that Gus is better than Rashad, or that Jones is better than Shields, or whatever other ridiculous nonsense you are talking about. I'm saying that Henderson's grapppling capabilities are good enough to compete with Rashad Evans, who is considered one of the best wrestlers at LHW, therefor Henderson is a capable grappler. If Henderson was so bad at wrestling, Rashasd would have taken him down at will and had his way with him. Rashad struggled, he could barely handle him, why? Because Henderson is a good enough grappler and wrestler to compete with guys like Rashad. Everybody knows Henderson has a huge wrestling background, it's no surprise that he can handle himself on that front. Henderson is not some horrible wrestler that has to fear the TD all the time, he's a strong wrestler who can defend shots from great wrestlers like Rashad. Some guys have better shots than others, some guys struggle more with others, but regardless Henderson is in general a solid wrestler who can handle himself.

It's not math, it's common sense. If a guy can compete with other grapplers, whether or not he's better than they are, then he has solid grappling ability. I never claimed Henderson is a better wrestler than Rashad or whatever else you are pointlessly trying to put in my mouth, I said that Henderson can compete with guys like Rashad on the grapppling front therefore he has solid skills regarding wrestling/grappling. You and you alone are trying to bring up some nonsensical and completely irrelevant discussion of MMA math. Think about what I typed here, go over it a couple of times and try to use some reading comprehension before responding to me, it will save us a lot of pointless discussion.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

jonnyg4508 said:


> I do love how Hendo is an old man but the 40 year old janitor on his list of top wrestlers Bonee has beat. That is hilarious.


Precisely. Some logic.


----------



## King Daisuke (Mar 25, 2013)

M.C said:


> Who said it is math? Are you having this much of a hard time understanding basic comprehension? Please, listen carefully this time.
> 
> I never once said Henderson is a better wrestler than Rashad, or that Gus is better than Rashad, or that Jones is better than Shields, or whatever other ridiculous nonsense you are talking about. I'm saying that Henderson's grapppling capabilities are good enough to compete with Rashad Evans, who is considered one of the best wrestlers at LHW, therefor Henderson is a capable grappler. If Henderson was so bad at wrestling, Rashasd would have taken him down at will and had his way with him. Rashad struggled, he could barely handle him, why? Because Henderson is a good enough grappler and wrestler to compete with guys like Rashad. Everybody knows Henderson has a huge wrestling background, it's no surprise that he can handle himself on that front. Henderson is not some horrible wrestler that has to fear the TD all the time, he's a strong wrestler who can defend shots from great wrestlers like Rashad. Some guys have better shots than others, some guys struggle more with others, but regardless Henderson is in general a solid wrestler who can handle himself.
> 
> It's not math, it's common sense. If a guy can compete with other grapplers, whether or not he's better than they are, then he has solid grappling ability. I never claimed Henderson is a better wrestler than Rashad or whatever else you are pointlessly trying to put in my mouth, I said that Henderson can compete with guys like Rashad on the grapppling front therefore he has solid skills regarding wrestling/grappling. You and you alone are trying to bring up some nonsensical and completely irrelevant discussion of MMA math. Think about what I typed here, go over it a couple of times and try to use some reading comprehension before responding to me, it will save us a lot of pointless discussion.


----------



## ReptilianSlayer (Sep 2, 2013)

the bad guy 13 said:


> Can we please wait until Cormier actually fights a top wrestler in MMA until we proclaim him to be a wrestling God?
> 
> Yes, Cormier has great wrestling credentials. But wrestling in MMA is different than wrestling in a pure wrestling competition. Stance is different, set ups are different, striking plays a very big role, etc. A wrestler with better credentials does not always outwrestle his opponents in MMA. Cormier has dominated and easily outwrestled everyone he has faced so far, but he has yet to fight someone who could be considered an elite MMA wrestler. Let's look at the fighters with best wrestling he has faced so far:
> 
> ...


----------



## Iuanes (Feb 17, 2009)

Cormier hasn't faced an elite MMA wrestler because he can't fight himself.


----------



## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

M.C said:


> Who said it is math? Are you having this much of a hard time understanding basic comprehension? Please, listen carefully this time.
> 
> I never once said Henderson is a better wrestler than Rashad, or that Gus is better than Rashad, or that Jones is better than Shields, or whatever other ridiculous nonsense you are talking about. I'm saying that Henderson's grapppling capabilities are good enough to compete with Rashad Evans, who is considered one of the best wrestlers at LHW, therefor Henderson is a capable grappler. If Henderson was so bad at wrestling, Rashasd would have taken him down.....


Okay, so then, by your 'simple logic', those who have easily taken down Hendo, must be great. You'll admit this works for DC, but then suddenly you get silent about the others like Shogun. You're basing your view on Hendo with one fight. Why? Because it's the only fight that makes sense out of what you believe, so you cherry picked it, and cling to it. 

Henderson has been getting beat to a pulp for years now. He's been totally dominated on the ground by MW's (one who was actually a natural WW). Now don't get me wrong, I have the upmost respect for Shield, but the guy was a small MW, and absolutely man-handled Hendo. I knew from that fight on, Hendo would not be able to beat any elite wrestlers. And this was while Hendo was on testosterone. 

Now, DC beats him fresh off testosterone, and Hendo is suddenly one of the best wrestlers at LHW? 




M.C said:


> Henderson is not some horrible wrestler that has to fear the TD all the time....


Um, yeah, he is. Henderson is old, and no longer has access to supplemental testosterone. He's actually a horrible wrestler and LHW. Perhaps on TRT he can compete better given is background, but today, he's horrible. That is just a fact. 



M.C said:


> It's not math, it's common sense.


LOL. 



M.C said:


> I never claimed Henderson is a better wrestler than Rashad or whatever else you are pointlessly trying to put in my mouth....


What I did was use your own simple logic against you. Your attempt to turn post-TRT, middleweight, 40+ Hendo into an elite LHW wrestler, is an epic failure. 

Hendo is a legend, but that time has passed.


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## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

Calminian said:


> Now don't get me wrong, I have the upmost respect for Shield, but the guy was a small MW, and absolutely man-handled Hendo. I knew from that fight on, Hendo would not be able to beat any elite wrestlers. And this was while Hendo was on testosterone.


His back was ****ed up when he fought Shields. He didn't use it as an excuse though, but I'm sure he would have done better if he was healthy.


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

"Henderson is a horrible wrestler" :laugh:


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Joabbuac said:


> "Henderson is a horrible wrestler" :laugh:


post TRT, 40+ at LHW? Absolutely. Anyone denying this is a complete idiot. 

Mounted continually by Shogun. Barely getting takedowns at all in his last few fights. You literally have to be stupid to think Hendo is a top wrestler in the UFC.


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## GDPofDRB (Apr 18, 2013)

Calminian said:


> post TRT, 40+ at LHW? Absolutely. Anyone denying this is a complete idiot.
> 
> Mounted continually by Shogun. Barely getting takedowns at all in his last few fights. You literally have to be stupid to think Hendo is a top wrestler in the UFC.


You are the one man anti-Cormier show, it's like the only thing you are known for. So what is it really that you hate about Cormier to be this big of a troll, and don't be scared to give us the real reason this time, what would it hurt at this point?


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## prospect (Mar 26, 2014)

GDPofDRB said:


> You are the one man anti-Cormier show, it's like the only thing you are known for. So what is it really that you hate about Cormier to be this big of a troll, and don't be scared to give us the real reason this time, what would it hurt at this point?


Just because hendo sucks dosnt mean that the guy who rag dolled him sucks too


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## Joabbuac (Jan 31, 2009)

Calminian said:


> post TRT, 40+ at LHW? Absolutely. Anyone denying this is a complete idiot.
> 
> Mounted continually by Shogun. Barely getting takedowns at all in his last few fights. You literally have to be stupid to think Hendo is a top wrestler in the UFC.


When exhausted or rocked... even things you are good at become pretty hard.

So you meant Henderson is not a top tier wrestler? Yet you said he is a "horrible wrestler"


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## GDPofDRB (Apr 18, 2013)

prospect said:


> Just because hendo sucks dosnt mean that the guy who rag dolled him sucks too


Oooh, there are handful of people here in need of your wisdom to cure their ignorance then. Hopefully you find your own cure for the affliction that makes you use sucks to describe Henderson one day soon.


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## prospect (Mar 26, 2014)

GDPofDRB said:


> Oooh, there are handful of people here in need of your wisdom to cure their ignorance then. Hopefully you find your own cure for the affliction that makes you use sucks to describe Henderson one day soon.


Sowee my bed grate maan weth werds.. Henderson is not very decent in my opinion.. catch that smartass


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## GDPofDRB (Apr 18, 2013)

prospect said:


> Sowee my bed grate maan weth werds.. Henderson is not very decent in my opinion.. catch that smartass


Don't try to hard. It'd be good for you to take it easy, right?


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## prospect (Mar 26, 2014)

GDPofDRB said:


> Don't try to hard. It'd be good for you to take it easy, right?


Too many words man with grate wisdom


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Calminian said:


> Okay, so then, by your 'simple logic', those who have easily taken down Hendo, must be great. You'll admit this works for DC, but then suddenly you get silent about the others like Shogun. You're basing your view on Hendo with one fight. Why? Because it's the only fight that makes sense out of what you believe, so you cherry picked it, and cling to it.
> 
> Henderson has been getting beat to a pulp for years now. He's been totally dominated on the ground by MW's (one who was actually a natural WW). Now don't get me wrong, I have the upmost respect for Shield, but the guy was a small MW, and absolutely man-handled Hendo. I knew from that fight on, Hendo would not be able to beat any elite wrestlers. And this was while Hendo was on testosterone.
> 
> ...


I'm going to let you read my previous post again, because nothing you said here relates to anything I said.

Some pointers when reading my last post to perhaps help you understand a little bit:

1. I never claimed Henderson was one of the best wreslters at LHW
2. I never claimed he couldn't be beaten like he was against Shields (who is an amazing wrestler that handled Maia in a pure grappling fight)
3. The Rashad fight is an example to show that he can handle great wrestlers, not all of them, not every single time, he isn't the most consistent wrestler out there (I never claimed he was, again), the point is that he's capable.

Now, with that information clear (which it is clear in my previous post, but you seem to like making things up in your own brain for some reason), please go re-read my post and come back with a relevant reply.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Rauno said:


> Barnett's a grappler more than he is wrestler.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


He started his MMA career here in Missoula MT and walked into the U of M judo association and started training. 

He was a beast, so much so that they sent him to Jim Harrison because he was good, he wanted to fight in MMA and he was too intense. Back then there was a lot more ground work allowed in competition, now days its a mess. 

Wrestling is a part of what he was trained from the very beginning of his career, he went on to develop his style of catch wrestling. Im not saying take downs are his best skill but he is a catch wrestler.


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## the bad guy 13 (Oct 24, 2012)

Calminian said:


> post TRT, 40+ at LHW? Absolutely. Anyone denying this is a complete idiot.
> 
> Mounted continually by Shogun. Barely getting takedowns at all in his last few fights. You literally have to be stupid to think Hendo is a top wrestler in the UFC.


well said + 1



prospect said:


> Just because hendo sucks dosnt mean that the guy who rag dolled him sucks too


True but it doesnt say much about how he would do against a top 5 LHW or an elite mma wrestler.



slapshot said:


> He started his MMA career here in Missoula MT and walked into the U of M judo association and started training.
> 
> He was a beast, so much so that they sent him to Jim Harrison because he was good, he wanted to fight in MMA and he was too intense. Back then there was a lot more ground work allowed in competition, now days its a mess.
> 
> Wrestling is a part of what he was trained from the very beginning of his career, he went on to develop his style of catch wrestling. Im not saying take downs are his best skill but he is a catch wrestler.


hes more of a submission grappler, and although he is a good agressive offensive wrestler, his tdd sucks he got taken down and controlled by big nog and cro cop. 2 non wrestlers.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

Joabbuac said:


> When exhausted or rocked... even things you are good at become pretty hard.
> 
> So you meant Henderson is not a top tier wrestler? Yet you said he is a "horrible wrestler"


He's not top tier even on TRT. 

Post TRT, in the LHW div.? I think he's getting manhandled by all but a few. Really hoping he retires.


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## CarlosCondit (Jul 16, 2011)

He faces Cain everyday in the gym.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Rauno said:


> Barnett's a grappler more than he is wrestler.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Why is that? Because he subs people? Is Shields more of a grappler than wrestler? Maybe Im not following. Being a grappler is better than being a pure wrestler. If you are just saying he isnt a one dimensional pure wrestler then I agree and nevermind. But if you are saying he is a grappler more so yhan wrestler therefor he isnt a top wtestler than I disagree. 

Barnett uses "catch wrestling" as his form of finding subs. He subs you with his very heavy and good top game. He gets to top and has control because he is a very good wrestler. 

Who at HW is a better wrestler than Barnett. Cain. Who else? Miocic? Who else? Barnett isnt Brock. But he is a very good wrestler with a well versed game in judo, cage work, subs. Very strong. Very big. It amazes me that people fown play DC utterly dominating him in any and all close range exchanges. Made Barnett look like Nate Diaz. 

We dont have to call Barnett an elite wrestler. But their are few elite wrestlers in any class. DC was scheduled to face Rashad and was a 3 to 1 favorite. It isnt like elite wrestlers are all over the joint. There is 1 at hw. Anf minus dc himself their are 2 at lhw. Not sure what people want. 2 out of those 3 are the champs. The other he was scheduled to fight......


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

the bad guy 13 said:


> well said + 1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Umm yeah thats what catch wrestling is...:confused02: You realize a lot of us here are actual practitioners right.


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

Point is - If Jones fights Cormier and outwrestles him, these same people trying to diminish DC's MMA wrestling abilities will brag Jones is a monster for outwrestling *an elite wrestler*. The easy to predict irony in MMA fans.


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## prospect (Mar 26, 2014)

MMA-Sportsman said:


> Point is - If Jones fights Cormier and outwrestles him, these same people trying to diminish DC's MMA wrestling abilities will brag Jones is a monster for outwrestling *an elite wrestler*. The easy to predict irony in MMA fans.


You mean mma casuals ???


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## Sportsman 2.0 (Jul 10, 2012)

prospect said:


> You mean mma casuals ???


Which walk and type among us, yes. :wink01:


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## the bad guy 13 (Oct 24, 2012)

what did i tell you cormiers wrestling was way overrated for humping a 50 yr old man or wrestling a fat, slow nelson. the minute he faced a legit wrestler he got owned, so much for 'olympic' wrestling...lmao. where the haters at?


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

the bad guy 13 said:


> what did i tell you cormiers wrestling was way overrated for humping a 50 yr old man or wrestling a fat, slow nelson. the minute he faced a legit wrestler he got owned, so much for 'olympic' wrestling...lmao. where the haters at?


Where are the uneducated schmucks at? Oh wait, right above me. Stay stupid, bro.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

the bad guy 13 said:


> what did i tell you cormiers wrestling was way overrated for humping a 50 yr old man or wrestling a fat, slow nelson. the minute he faced a legit wrestler he got owned, so much for 'olympic' wrestling...lmao. where the haters at?


You confuse humping with rag dolling. 

He faced probably the best MMA wrestler in the sport, so now he's not a good wrestler? Run along man. Go create a topic about how knives should be allowed in fights or some other nonsense.


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## the bad guy 13 (Oct 24, 2012)

Rygu said:


> *Where are the uneducated schmucks at?* Oh wait, right above me.* Stay stupid, bro*.



yea ok bro...:sarcastic09: stay classy.



PheelGoodInc said:


> You confuse humping with rag dolling.
> 
> *He faced probably the best MMA wrestler in the sport*, so now he's not a good wrestler? Run along man. Go create a topic about how knives should be allowed in fights or some other nonsense.



ok so now jones is the best mma wrestler but before you couldn't imagine the thought of jones out wrestling cormier. thats mma fans for you, typical band wagon jumpers. Fake fans.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

the bad guy 13 said:


> ...ok so now jones is the best mma wrestler but before you couldn't imagine the thought of jones out wrestling cormier. thats mma fans for you, typical band wagon jumpers. Fake fans.


LOL. You knew it was coming. :wink03: Extreme fandom and excuses go hand in hand.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

the bad guy 13 said:


> yea ok bro...:sarcastic09: stay classy.


And when have you acted classy? :confused02:



the bad guy 13 said:


> ok so now jones is the best mma wrestler but before you couldn't imagine the thought of jones out wrestling cormier. thats mma fans for you, typical band wagon jumpers. Fake fans.


Right off the bat you go after one of the better posters...

I thought Jones would do more or less exactly what he did but DC is a elite MMA wrestler, JBJ beat him so fuking what..

Its not like anyone else in the HW or LHW division would be able to beat him like that. 

It doesn't bolster your opinion it just makes you look arrogant and closed minded.


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## DonRifle (Jan 18, 2009)

slapshot said:


> It doesn't bolster your opinion it just makes you look arrogant and closed minded.


Oh come on now, the bad guy is a genius! :laugh:


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

slapshot said:


> And when have you acted classy? :confused02:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think DC is a very good MMA wrestler, but will find it most valuable in the HW division. At LHW he's going to find the fighters to be just as strong, but much quicker. I also think he's going to be handed a few more losses at LHW. He'll look dominant against the aging old guard like Henderson, but he's going to find the going difficult with others. 

JMO. Not sure if I'm in the "better posters" cat.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Calminian said:


> I think DC is a very good MMA wrestler, but will find it most valuable in the HW division. At LHW he's going to find the fighters to be just as strong, but much quicker. I also think he's going to be handed a few more losses at LHW. He'll look dominant against the aging old guard like Henderson, but he's going to find the going difficult with others.
> 
> JMO. Not sure if I'm in the "better posters" cat.


I partially agree, I dont think they lost to DC because they were past their prime alone, he's a solid fighter that IMO would have beaten them regardless maybe not as definitively.

At LHW I dont see him getting outclassed by anyone, his striking is good and he's still faster or as fast as anyone and he's got great timing.


Who at LHW is going to beat DC grappling? IMO I only see JBJ as having the ability. 

The point was that he's a absolute monster in two weight class's and thats not easy to come by. DC's MMA wrestling is better than all but a small handful of fighters if you can even call it that but he lost to Jones and now thats quoted as evidence he's all hype? 

He was beaten but its not like he got ran over...

Sheesh, JBJ is the greatest MMA fighter of all time, I just think its a fickle opinion at best.

I was talking about PheelGoodInc but most of the time I dont mind your posts.:thumb02:


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

the bad guy 13 said:


> Can we please wait until Cormier actually fights a top wrestler in MMA until we proclaim him to be a wrestling God?
> 
> Yes, Cormier has great wrestling credentials. But wrestling in MMA is different than wrestling in a pure wrestling competition. Stance is different, set ups are different, striking plays a very big role, etc. A wrestler with better credentials does not always outwrestle his opponents in MMA. Cormier has dominated and easily outwrestled everyone he has faced so far, but he has yet to fight someone who could be considered an elite MMA wrestler. Let's look at the fighters with best wrestling he has faced so far:
> 
> ...


Where were you *before* the fight?

Gotta love the "hindsight heroes" :thumb02:


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

I don't think Cormier's wrestling is overrated, but his MMA wrestling is. He may be able to out wrestle Cain in a strictly wrestling match, but Cormier's MMA wrestling doesn't look like Cains. Cormier's TD timing is underwhelming when punches are involved, liken to Brock Lesnar. Maybe Cormier beats JBJ in a strictly wrestling match or anyone in the UFC for that matter, but as far as MMA wrestling, it's still got a ways to go.

I was pulling for Cormier, but so much of MMA wrestling TD's are more about counter strike timing. You duck under a punch or a caught kick (a la Cain vs Bigfoot) and that TD is all she wrote. Cormier is still a boss, but JBJ is a phenom. I can't stand the guy, so it kills me that he's so damn good.

I read some comment somebody wrote, "if Cormier can't take JBJ down, than neither can Cain." Which imo is ridiculous. The two may have similar talents, but they use them very differently. When Cain shoots, he keeps on shooting, DC is more opportunistic but lacks the timing Cain does in an MMA setting. Anyway, we'll see if that super fight ever happens. Good for JBJ, but that night sucked for me.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

d


slapshot said:


> ....Who at LHW is going to beat DC grappling? IMO I only see JBJ as having the ability. ....


I'm not sold on him at all. Jones is getting a big boost from this, but I don't even this this was his best outing. Jones I think got too emotionally involved and dragged early on. But once he settled down his talent showed through in the later rounds. He was clearly the stronger athlete, and perhaps had he sensed this early on, it would been even more lopsided. 

I see DC having trouble with Evans, Tex and AJ. And I think Gus is completely outclassing him. St. Preux I think also will be tough. 

I think DC's best career move is to put on some weight and be a gate keeper at HW. I realize I'm in the minority on this, but I just don't see potential others do considering his age. 

I've been wrong before, so may well be way off on this.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

DC went after Jones for the first 3 rounds pretty hard, JBJ was able to counter perfectly, sth a guy like AJ wouldn't be able to do imo. I have DC near the top of the chain really.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Crazy... Jones/DC was apparently the second biggest reach disadvantage in any division in UFC history.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Crazy... Jones/DC was apparently the second biggest reach disadvantage in any division in UFC history.


What was the first?


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

AmdM said:


> What was the first?


Just guessing. Struve Barry?

And Bad Guy, please tell me where I said I couldn't imagine Jones out wrestling DC. I'm waiting...


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## HexRei (Apr 27, 2007)

AmdM said:


> What was the first?


I'd guess Sylvia vs one of his smaller opponents... Monson maybe?

edit: sheeeeit. nevermind. That was surprisingly close given the insane height disparity.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Just guessing. Struve Barry?
> 
> And Bad Guy, please tell me where I said I couldn't imagine Jones out wrestling DC. I'm waiting...


Oy, I heard that non-stop. You have to admit that was annoying.


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## AmdM (Apr 13, 2010)

I don't know exactly how, but i was googling trying to find out what was the biggest reach disadvantage in ufc history and somehow ended up in an article about cow milking competition and an ex-champ complaining about the lack of doping tests on the cows! 

http://i100.independent.co.uk/artic...hampionships-mired-in-controversy--xJHeW73cHe


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Calminian said:


> d
> 
> I'm not sold on him at all. Jones is getting a big boost from this, but I don't even this this was his best outing. Jones I think got too emotionally involved and dragged early on. But once he settled down his talent showed through in the later rounds. He was clearly the stronger athlete, and perhaps had he sensed this early on, it would been even more lopsided.
> 
> ...


IMO the issue is you are not giving Jones enough credit for being a freak of nature. 


Also lets just be real about Hendo, the dude would beat you to death with one arm if he took to the idea, literally. 

This problem is, when you take a natural middle weight and put him up against a natural HW grappling is going to look that lopsided and its not a reflection of a lack of skill so much as all the advantages are in the other guys favor. 

Like I said, dan was 40 years old, even the best of the best cant do that. That in itself is a testament to just how good Hendo was. But then add to that he's fighting a bigger younger and more skilled wrestler, what the hell did people expect was going to happen? 

You still cant use that to say DC is overrated, He did what he went out there to do, if anything Dan was. DC can, will, has, put a hurting on everyone except Jones. I dont see that changing.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

slapshot said:


> ...Also lets just be real about Hendo, the dude would beat you to death with one arm if he took to the idea, literally.


And he could probably do so until he's 90. You're not going to find a bigger Hendo fan out there than me. 



slapshot said:


> This issue is, when you take a natural middle weight and put him up against a natural HW grappling is going to look that lopsided and its not a reflection of a lack of skill so much as all the advantages are in the other guys favor.
> 
> Like I said, dan was 40 years old, even the best of the best cant do that. That in itself is a testament to just how good Hendo was. But then add onto his age that he's fighting a bigger younger and more skilled wrestler, what the hell did people expect was going to happen?


All true, and I'm sure people understood this was a gift for Cormier. It was a terrible matchup even if TRT was still legal. 



slapshot said:


> You still cant use that to say DC is overrated, He did what he went out there to do, if anything Dan was. DC can, will, has, put a hurting on everyone except Jones. I dont see that changing.


Well think DC used to be overrated, specifically just prior to entering the cage with Jones and getting out muscled. Now I think people are going to view him more realistically. I think expectations are going to go way down and they should. 

But I don't buy the Jones line either that had he had the chance he would have gotten gold in the olympics. I think everyone is getting way to excited and drawing way too many conclusions and hyping themselves up way too much. I'll give Jones credit though, he is blowing off GOAT talk. 

I think Gus and Bones are freakish athletes and are going to now settle things thankfully. I think the worst thing Jones can do right now is start believing the hype around him. DC is still a totally unproven LHW and therefore everyone needs to refrain from drawing any conclusions from that fight. HW success rarely if ever translates to LHW success.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Really? 

Because Im more sold on DC now after the JBJ fight than I ever was before it.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

slapshot said:


> Really?
> 
> Because Im more sold on DC now after the JBJ fight than I ever was before it.


By all means, have a ball with that.


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## towwffc (Jan 1, 2008)

We don't yet know exactly where DC ranks within the top of the LHW division. We only know he is much better than lower tier Light Heavyweights, but not the top dog (thats Jones obviously). So the question is, where does he REALLY rank within the top 3 or 4 of the division. We haven't seen him fight any other elite LHW fighters.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

I don't get how you can possibly see DC having trouble with Evans or Tex. He'd absolutely DESTROY them in wrestling.

Pat Cummings is also an elite MMA wrestler if you've seen his fights since, not that it mattered since he didnt have the striking experience yet.

I was never fully sold on Cormier. That doesn't change in this fight though. It just shows that Jones is that good. I just wanted DC to prove himself like I did with Weidman who got a title shot off of Mark Munoz. I still wanna see DC in there with a solid LHW.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> I don't get how you can possibly see DC having trouble with Evans or Tex. He'd absolutely DESTROY them in wrestling.


Which is exactly what I kept hearing he'd do to Jones. Yet, turns out Jones outwrestled him. 



ClydebankBlitz said:


> Pat Cummings is also an elite MMA wrestler if you've seen his fights since, not that it mattered since he didnt have the striking experience yet.


But Cummins actually had a training camp in those fights, and let's face it, he's not been put it with any elites yet. 



ClydebankBlitz said:


> I was never fully sold on Cormier. That doesn't change in this fight though. It just shows that Jones is that good....


Circular reasoning. Maybe Jones and Cormier are just a tad overrated.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Calminian said:


> Which is exactly what I kept hearing he'd do to Jones. Yet, turns out Jones outwrestled him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your logic can't be "Cormier hasn't fought an elite wrestler" "What about Cummins?" "Cummins hasn't fought an elite wrestler".

Jones overrated. Wow.


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## Calminian (Feb 1, 2009)

ClydebankBlitz said:


> Your logic can't be "Cormier hasn't fought an elite wrestler" "What about Cummins?" "Cummins hasn't fought an elite wrestler".
> 
> Jones overrated. Wow.


Not sure what you're say'n here. It's almost like your typing is slurred. I knew this loss was going to take it's toll and cause people to go nuts. 

I think the OP is likely talking about an elite MMA wrestler, and I don't think Cummins with one day of preparation qualifies. He has had some good outings since with a full training camp. 

And Jones is an elite fighter. He's at the top of the heap, and head and shoulders at that. 

That said, I think people have exhaled him to god status since he just beat their god. They need to bring him down to earth. The fight of his life is coming up.


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## RangerClydeTheBlue (Jul 11, 2012)

Calminian said:


> Not sure what you're say'n here. It's almost like your typing is slurred. I knew this loss was going to take it's toll and cause people to go nuts.
> 
> I think the OP is likely talking about an elite MMA wrestler, and I don't think Cummins with one day of preparation qualifies. He has had some good outings since with a full training camp.
> 
> ...


I said Cummins didn't really count since he was brand new to the sport essentially, but if you're being literal, Cummins IS an elite wrestler that DC beat. Cummins is actually superb since that fight. We underrated the guy hugely.

I think I just misread you. I was taking that as a "Jones is still overrated. Now DC is overrated since Jones beat him".

Based on his resume though, you can replace "God status" with "GOAT" and it's not THAT unfounded. I have him above GSP now, probably AJ/Gus away from the top spot.


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