# How Good Is Lesnar Really?



## JW78 (May 18, 2011)

After watching all of his UFC fights outside of the Herring bout, I'm really starting to think that Brock Lesnar isn't nearly as good as people give him credit for. He's basically been dominated by the newer breed of HW in the UFC. The only fighters he's beaten are the ones that are from the old guard in the HW division. Whenever he fights anyone with talent that's near his level and does more than one thing well he gets destroyed. His skills havent even improved that much from his first fights, still a punch rather than a striker, he gets by pretty much on wrestling, and GnP. The only thing that he has developed is his knowledge of BJJ so he wont get caught like with Mir. Instead of being the #2 heavyweight in the world I see him more as the last of the old school of MMA heavyweights, or even a gatekeeper to the 3 elite HW's in the UFC. The more I think about it the better a Lesnar v Nelson fight sounds to see exactly where Brock stands.

Just throwing this out there as my humble opinion, and I hope he does get back soon.

Do with this what you like.


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## Spec0688 (Sep 9, 2007)

Wrestling is the strongest base to enter this sport in, so I would say he is a fairly good fighter, and he has some of the best GnP in MMA, simply because of his size. He weakness is boxing and at the age of 33, with health issues, I don't know if we will see him evolve in that area.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

He is going to struggle against good wrestlers but guy's who lack wrestling are nothing for him. Either you defend the takedown and/or get straight back up (Cain) and your fine, if you can't then you're pretty much screwed.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Gatekeeper to the top 3 would be a top five fighter.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Top ten guy for the rest of his career, Hall of Famer, last man to beat three UFC champions.

and the best damn coach in The Ultimate Fighter HISTORY.


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## JW78 (May 18, 2011)

RustyRenegade said:


> Gatekeeper to the top 3 would be a top five fighter.


There's a pretty big drop off after Cain Carwin and JDS.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

JW78 said:


> There's a pretty big drop off after Cain Carwin and JDS.


He beat Carwin already


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

This is hilarious i was saying this stuff from the get go , only difference is i was saying when it wasnt cool to hate Lesnar.




> He beat Carwin already


Randleman beat Mirko , Serra beat GSP.

Every dog has his day.




> top ten guy for the rest of his career, Hall of Famer, last man to beat three UFC champions.
> 
> and the best damn coach in The Ultimate Fighter HISTORY.


Hall of famer ? fail


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## JW78 (May 18, 2011)

RustyRenegade said:


> He beat Carwin already


I never said he didn't but are u gonna tell me he didn't get destroyed in the first round and caught a break in the second. I guaruntee if Carwin didn't gas Brock would have tapped to strikes in the second.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Barely. Should they ever have a rematch Lesnar will get KTFO easy. Carwin stuffed all of his shots in that first round and just beat his ass. If Carwin hadn't gassed from freaking out he would've beaten him pretty easily.

That being said, Brock will probably be a top 5 (or just shy of it) fighter until the inevitable SF merger. His natural agility and strength coupled with his wrestling base makes him tough to beat for anyone who isn't a great wrestler.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> Hall of famer ? fail


One Brock Lesnar PPV made more money(50-75 million) than Strikeforce made all year (30 million), but yeah Dana's gonna keep him out of the Hall of Fame after he made him a multi-millionaire. He's a former champion who defended the title three times, that's enough to put him in.


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## Steroid Steve (Oct 1, 2010)

Lesnar can beat anyone that he can get on the ground and keep them there for a min or two. It sounds elementary, but it's true. Any fighter that can withstand his onslaught has a very high chance to beat him. Lesnar is a freakish mismatch against certain opponents, yet he has gaping weaknesses as well. There's nothing much to him other than that. Basically, a one trick pony. I don't think he's overrated. He's more of an attraction than anything, which can make him seem overrated because people love watching him. Only casual fans overrate him.


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## jeffmantx (Jun 19, 2009)

lol this must be the anti brock thread. i hate when people make these, to op do you realise he doesn't have the experience that most mma fighters have? I think it's hilarious the posts people make when it comes to brock!!! Listen for a guy to come into mma withe no experience and do as good as he has is phenomenal. 

On to topic I think he is still a legitimate threat to any HW if getting tkoed by Cain means all the sudden you suck lol and that you couldn't get the title back, then most of you guys don't watch mma where anything can happen.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

He was still improving but with the health issue being kind of grim if the surgery doesn't work IDK. I've felt his striking has improved with every fight but I dont think he's improving fast enough. The only way I see him making a real run is if he went to be trained at one of the top teams known for striking and I dont think he'll do that.


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Brock is awesome. Toughest guy at heavyweight. Best TUF coach ever.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

Brock is better than 99,9% of the heavyweights out there. I'd say that's pretty good.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

luck is finding a wallet on the street, beating someone in a mma fight is not luck


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

Oh my god! the fandom that Lesner has is unreal! Im sick of anyone saying he is a top HW in the world! NO HE IS NOT! In fights he has a wrester chance... just like a boxers punchers chance.. many top 20 fighters can beat him! and he is not top ten! no way Cain,reem,JDS,Carwin,Werdum,big foot the list goes on! even the moon(roy) can beat lesner 90% of the time! Brock is just some over grown RED NECK american who has been built by years of HYPE and dear meat! the 2nd he is now paying for! im glad every school aged kid you need a varied diet not just red meat! eat your greens brock or you'll get ill .... oh wait...


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Toroian said:


> Oh my god! the fandom that Lesner has is unreal! Im sick of anyone saying he is a top HW in the world! NO HE IS NOT! In fights he has a wrester chance... just like a boxers punchers chance.. many top 20 fighters can beat him! and he is not top ten! no way Cain,reem,JDS,Carwin,Werdum,big foot the list goes on! even the moon(roy) can beat lesner 90% of the time! Brock is just some over grown RED NECK american who has been built by years of HYPE and dear meat! the 2nd he is now paying for! im glad every school aged kid you need a varied diet not just red meat! eat your greens brock or you'll get ill .... oh wait...


you have shown your real colours of being a sad person, besides the fact you have no evidence how much he sucks(defended the hw title twice and a successful tuf coach) you go out of your way to insult him on his life threatening illness, i wouldnt be surprised if you noone gives a shyte about you having a disease if this is your language towards them


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

UFC_OWNS said:


> you have shown your real colours of being a sad person, besides the fact you have no evidence how much he sucks(defended the hw title twice and a successful tuf coach) you go out of your way to insult him on his life threatening illness, i wouldnt be surprised if you noone gives a shyte about you having a disease if this is your language towards them


If not life threatening this time and he brought it on his self .. people shouldn't have remorse for self self-inflicted damage ... you should care for people like Shane Del Rosario who got hit by a drunk driver and almost ended his carer!


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Toroian said:


> If not life threatening this time and he brought it on his self .. people shouldn't have remorse for self self-inflicted damage ... you should care for people like Shane Del Rosario who got hit by a drunk driver and almost ended his carer!


I hope you've eaten a perfect diet and never suffer from this self inflicted disease.


As for how good is Lesnar?

He has less experience than Phil Davis. I think he's pretty good.


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

oldfan said:


> I hope you've eaten a perfect diet and never suffer from this self inflicted disease.
> 
> 
> As for how good is Lesnar?
> ...


If i eat loads of sugars and get diabetes.. shit happens my fault. If i smoke 20 a day and i get lung cancer .. shit happens my fault. If i drink a bottle of whiskey a day and i get liver disease .. shit happens my fault. etc etc etc 

As for his skill, again he wont be getting any more wins before he retires.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Toroian said:


> If not life threatening this time and he brought it on his self .. people shouldn't have remorse for self self-inflicted damage ... you should care for people like Shane Del Rosario who got hit by a drunk driver and almost ended his carer!


what, how do you bring his type of disease on himself? its not like cigarettes giving you cancer, and i do care about people like rosario i also care about anyone else who has something terrible happen to them


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

UFC_OWNS said:


> what, how do you bring his type of disease on himself? its not like cigarettes giving you cancer, and i do care about people like rosario i also care about anyone else who has something terrible happen to them


He ate nothing but red meat for 20 YEARS! he has said in interviews its vitamins from greens he has not had in years! because all he ate was red meat!

all i'm saying is 'you reap what you sow' 'You are what you eat' etc


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## Liddellianenko (Oct 8, 2006)

So one fight is a pattern now? The only man to dominate him is Velasquez, who has dominated everyone he's fought.

He weathered the storm and beat Carwin (the hardest puncher in MMA history IMO) fair and square, which is more than what any other top HW can say. 

Granted Mir, Couture and Herring are old guard, but they're not scrubs either and he dominated them badly. Mir is still rated a top 10 HW btw and has KOd Kongo and Nog recently. 

I guess Lesnar's next few fights will show if he was a true champion or not, but losing once to a machine like Cain is not proof of being overrated.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

UFC_OWNS said:


> luck is finding a wallet on the street, beating someone in a mma fight is not luck


THIS ^^^^^^^^

Lesnar will probably never beat Cain, JDS, Carwin or a few other top HWs but his wins against Mir, Couture and Herring weren't luck. The above 3 are 3 of the most experienced HWs in MMA and Brock wouldn't have beaten them unless he is a genuinely decent fighter.


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## kaza26 (May 23, 2011)

from the first fight of lesner in ufc I was sure that all the credit he gets is to much...except good wrestling skills and size, he is an average fighter


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

Toroian said:


> Oh my god! the fandom that Lesner has is unreal! Im sick of anyone saying he is a top HW in the world! NO HE IS NOT! In fights he has a wrester chance... just like a boxers punchers chance.. many top 20 fighters can beat him! and he is not top ten! no way Cain,reem,JDS,Carwin,Werdum,big foot the list goes on! even the moon(roy) can beat lesner 90% of the time! Brock is just some over grown RED NECK american who has been built by years of HYPE and dear meat! the 2nd he is now paying for! im glad every school aged kid you need a varied diet not just red meat! eat your greens brock or you'll get ill .... oh wait...


1. Lesnar fought the toughest opposition available, always. You can't claim he's "HYPED" or that him being champ wasn't earned.

2. Lesnar doesn't rely on a "wrestlers chance". 

3. Werdum is the only one who has fought a top 5 UFC heavyweight and he was KO'ed in the first round. If anyones overrated it may very well be the Strikeforce guys.


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## OasisSupersonic (May 25, 2011)

I was going to get involved in this debate, then I noticed, this is too heated for a noob like myself. Back to the newbie section for me...


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

Not as good as his nuthuggers think he is and not as bad as his haters think he is.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

oldfan said:


> I hope you've eaten a perfect diet and never suffer from this self inflicted disease.
> *
> 
> As for how good is Lesnar?
> ...


Never thought about it like that, Phil Davis is a talented fighter and people are saying that Rashad is a huge step up for him and he might not be ready, although he is 9-0 and has faced Little Nog, Stann, Gustaffson etc. earlier. Lesnar was 1-0 when he faced a former champion in Mir, after that it was Herring, Couture etc. 

Brock is/was more overhyped than he was overrated.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

People have been saying this looooooong before the cain fight went down.

It was the Randy Couture fight which really opened my eyes. Brock this "FREAKISH, MONSTER WRESTLER!" who couldn't take down an aged, way past it, LHW? I was shocked that after the Randy fight, people were still hyping up Brock beyond belief. I knew from that fight, that his MMA wrestling was really over rated. It's like a lot of people don't actually analyse what happened during the fight and all that matters is the win. To me, the most important part is what happened during the fight, win or lose.

He then goes in against Carwin and again, his wrestling was completely neutralised and he got the absolute shit kicked out of him and lost a 10:8 round. I gave him credit for showing heart in that fight and coming back, but again, the glaring holes and weaknesses in his game were emphasised. Then, even after the Carwin fight, fans were STILL hyping up Brock to be an unbeatable monster, I just couldn't believe this.

His boxing isn't just a weakness. It's a huge, glaring weakness that has now finally been fully exposed to everyone else. His wrestling has proven to be neutralised against other wrestlers. The only truly impressive win of Lesnar's career was Frank Mir. That was the only fight I was left feeling truly impressed by his performance. Every thing else has been lack luster.

There a bunch of HW's I would pick to beat Brock right now, some of them include Roy Nelson, Ben Rothwell, maybe even Brendan Schaub.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

If you cant stop Brocks shot or get back to your feet then you are screwed. Cain is an exceptional wrestler, Carwin was a good wrestler who is also very strong physically. I dont see who else is going to stop the shot? The majority of fights were it isnt Brock v Another Elite Wrestler will look like Mir 2. 

And just for the record, Brock has taken down EVERYONE who he has tried to. That includes Cain, Couture and Carwin. Just because he doesnt have a 100% takedown success rate doesnt mean he isnt getting people down. 

I also think people often underestimate just how much the illess took out of him, he didnt look good coming into the Carwin fight. Brock has had some good fights and some not so good fights, but always bare in mind the level of competition he has faced from being 1-0. 

And in terms of his striking, it actually isnt THAT bad. When he is on the offensive his striking is fine, he has some nice knees and brute strength. He needs to fix his reaction to getting hit, though whether it is too late to do this now is anyones guess.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

He beat Carwin, and he beat a tough Frank Mir. He also beat a still relevant Couture, and ran through a top 15er at the time Heath. Not bad for an amateur. He's lost to Frank Mir while very green and the current unbeaten champ who has ran through everyone so far. I'd say considering someone that has no striking and does't like to get hit, he has done quite well.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

With his health issues I dont expect Ill pick him in his next fight. He's basically not training and when your still learning time off from the gym often mean regression.

If he looks like he's really healthy I might change my mind prob not but after he's in fight shape Id like to see him fight Fedor.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

kaza26 said:


> from the first fight of lesner in ufc I was sure that all the credit he gets is to much...except good wrestling skills and size, he is an average fighter


Except for good boxing skills and speed JDS is an average fighter.

Except for good wrestling skills and cardio Cain is an average fighter.

Except for good wrestling skills and explosive athleticism GSP is an average fighter.


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## JW78 (May 18, 2011)

limba said:


> Not as good as his nuthuggers think he is and not as bad as his haters think he is.


Pretty spot on... Can easliy beat all of the old gaurd ( Mir Randy Silvia Werdum ) But gets destroyed by the new class ( Cain JDS Carwin Reem Bigfoot)


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## demoman993 (Apr 8, 2007)

How good is Lesnar?

His history in the sport is short but is quite accomplished. His first MMA fight he mauls a dude. His 2nd MMA fight he fights former UFC Heavyweight Frank Mir, actually puts him in a little trouble before a referee assist and then Frank takes him to school. Did pretty good for only having 1 professional MMA fight.

Dominates Heath Herring.
Beats former UFC Heavyweight and Light Heavyweight Champion Randy Couture for the title.
Dominates former UFC Heavyweight Champion Frank Mir to defend his title.
Takes some serious bombs from Shane Carwin and pulls out a big win for his 2nd title defense.
Gets dominated by the new breed HW Cain Velasquez.

Sure these new ages fighters are better then him but there is still a huge lineup behind him that aren't as good as him and couldn't beat him. I'm definately not a Brock nut hugger but I appreciate what he has accomplished. How many guys can say they picked up MMA and in less than 2 years and became a UFC champion? 

As far as where he stands in the pecking order, I'd say its hard to tell.
Never discount how different styles can confuse/alter our opinions.

What if Brock faught JDS and JDS couldn't stuff his takedowns and couldn't get off the bottom?

What if the same thing happened against Overeem?

I guess I'm on an kick this morning about how MMA math doesn't work.

Overeem vs. JDS Who the hell knows, that would be awesome.

Overeem vs. Cain Same thing

Point being, you could still argue that Brock is #2 in the UFC HW division but realistically his skill level as far as the total package is below a lot of the guys in the current UFC division.​


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

JW78 said:


> Pretty spot on... Can easliy beat all of the old gaurd ( Mir Randy Silvia Werdum ) But gets destroyed by the new class ( Cain JDS Carwin Reem Bigfoot)


LOL at Bigfoot. He couldn't knock out glass chin Arloski despite landing multiple flush shots to the jaw. Brock would take him down and grapple **** him.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Toroian said:


> If i eat loads of sugars and get diabetes.. shit happens my fault. If i smoke 20 a day and i get lung cancer .. shit happens my fault. If i drink a bottle of whiskey a day and i get liver disease .. shit happens my fault. etc etc etc
> 
> As for his skill, again he wont be getting any more wins before he retires.



and if you end up a diabetic wino with lung & liver cancer well....that's just karma


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

leifdawg said:


> Except for good boxing skills and speed JDS is an average fighter.
> 
> Except for good wrestling skills and cardio Cain is an average fighter.
> 
> Except for good wrestling skills and explosive athleticism GSP is an average fighter.


Bad examples, JDS is a BJJ Brown Belt last I herd.

Cain is not a weak striker and has natural power enough to make him more like a heavyweight Dan Henderson than a one trick pony.

GSP is and always has been a good striker better wrestler and has fair sub's.

Honestly none of them seem one or even two dimensional to me and Brock's doing just fine for being so green, everyone has a base they started with his is obviously wrestling so whats the big deal? I think he's done very very well for the tools he has but at this point you gotta know he's behind the pack as far as striking and still a bit more one dimensional than most top fighters. Than doesn't mean he's going to be easy to beat for most fighters IMO.


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

John8204 said:


> Top ten guy for the rest of his career, Hall of Famer, last man to beat three UFC champions.
> 
> and the best damn coach in The Ultimate Fighter HISTORY.


To be honest i think he was one off the worst coaches ever at least top 3 worst.


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## FresnoFightFan (Apr 26, 2011)

his skill set isn't there like it is for other top HW's like JDS or Cain, instead, he relys on his style to win (aside from the Couture lucky punch). if he fought someone like Struve, Berry, or Kongo, he would hump them to the cards or finish them with a lil GnP. he's good at what he does which is in close double legs and flurry punches from the top. those two dinamics put in a 270lb beast and alot of fighters would be in trouble.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

mmaswe82 said:


> To be honest i think he was one off the worst coaches ever at least top 3 worst.


Missed last nights episode I take it....


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## enufced904 (Jul 17, 2008)

John8204 said:


> He's a former champion who defended the title three times, that's enough to put him in.


Just to clarify, he won the belt and defended it twice  

Anyhow, I think Brock has enough skill set and athleticism to keep him in the top 5-7.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

Brock Lesnar physically is the most gifted fighter in the ufc, he is a great wrestler. Has the tools to be a legend but the man can't fight. If lesnar developed a decent striking game he would dominate for years.


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

John8204 said:


> Missed last nights episode I take it....


Actually I'm just about to watch it...hope to be surprized now.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

Though Lesnar is certainly up there I think GSP is the better physical specimen (no gay jokes please).


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

How good is Lesnar? Pretty good.

Top 3? Doubt it.

He's a good wrestler with great strength, but that's about as far as it goes so he is one dimensional.

No one dimensional fighters are going to stay champion very long in this sport.


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## LL (Mar 12, 2011)

Lesnar is top five, haters can hate but that's their choice.

Lesnar always entertains though, no doubt about that one.


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## Dream-On-101 (Jun 4, 2009)

Lesnars pure athleticism and wrestling base mean that he will NEVER be an easy fight for anyone. If he could improve his striking game to a decent level with some good defense (and stop running away when he gets hit) he could literally be the most dominant Heavyweight in UFC history. 

Whether he will be able to fix those holes, only time will tell. I still have him a favourite to beat anyone not named Cain Velasquez.


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## Maazisrock (Sep 22, 2008)

No other fighter will fight. Heath herring. Randy couture. Frank Mir(twice) Shane carwin in their first 6 fights and win 5 of the fights. What Brock has accomplished, no one else could with so little mma experience.


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## TheReturn (Sep 26, 2010)

JW78 said:


> After watching all of his UFC fights outside of the Herring bout, I'm really starting to think that Brock Lesnar isn't nearly as good as people give him credit for. He's basically been dominated by the newer breed of HW in the UFC. The only fighters he's beaten are the ones that are from the old guard in the HW division. Whenever he fights anyone with talent that's near his level and does more than one thing well he gets destroyed. His skills havent even improved that much from his first fights, still a punch rather than a striker, he gets by pretty much on wrestling, and GnP. The only thing that he has developed is his knowledge of BJJ so he wont get caught like with Mir. Instead of being the #2 heavyweight in the world I see him more as the last of the old school of MMA heavyweights, or even a gatekeeper to the 3 elite HW's in the UFC. The more I think about it the better a Lesnar v Nelson fight sounds to see exactly where Brock stands.
> 
> Just throwing this out there as my humble opinion, and I hope he does get back soon.
> 
> Do with this what you like.


Old school mma heavyweight? Seriously?
He started mma 3 YEARS AGO, just 3 and he's only 33 years old. 
In that time he's won the ufc hw title and defended it twice, thats amazeing to say the least.
We wont know how good he is until he puts another year or 2 of work into this and reaches his prime or the closest he'll ever be to it.
I mean I started off hateing lesnar but he wants it and he's comeing into the high rankings of a sport he doesnt know too much about, and you have to apreciate that.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

mmaswe82 said:


> Actually I'm just about to watch it...hope to be surprized now.


lesnar is winning 10-9 in tuf fights and has guaranteed one fighter in the final with him having 3 in the semis, but no shamrock and rampage were way better:confused05:


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

John8204 said:


> One Brock Lesnar PPV made more money(50-75 million) than Strikeforce made all year (30 million), but yeah Dana's gonna keep him out of the Hall of Fame after he made him a multi-millionaire. He's a former champion who defended the title three times, that's enough to put him in.


If Brock Lesnar goes into the Hall of fame , the whole thing will be a mockery and a slap in the face of many other BETTER fighters who didnt make it to the Hall. 

He makes lots of money correct , but he is a god awful fighter who defended his belt 3 times against sub par opposition and had a 2-1 record when he got the title bout its a F'ing bad joke and Lesnar isnt worthy of the HOF.


If your criteria for HOF is making money and defending your belt a couple of times then im glad you're not in charge , please go and look at the guys in there already and just hang your head in shame.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Holy delayed reactions Batman!



***** de Amigo said:


> If Brock Lesnar goes into the Hall of fame , the whole thing will be a mockery and a slap in the face of many other BETTER fighters who didnt make it to the Hall.


Most of the "better" fighters not in the hall of fame would be mocked, Tito, Forest, Don, Rampage, BJ? And who says these better fighters aren't going to make it into the hall of fame at some point maybe before Lesnar maybe after. Getting angry at something that will likely happen because it may mean going over someone who is perhaps better in a different area......boy come to think about it I can't even mock your logic you are so far off the beaten path.



***** de Amigo said:


> He makes lots of money correct , but he is a god awful fighter who defended his belt 3 times against sub par opposition and had a 2-1 record when he got the title bout its a F'ing bad joke and Lesnar isnt worthy of the HOF.


He's in the Hall...









He should be in the Hall...









People might even say this guys will be in the hall as well









I think they are all shitty fighters, they also didn't put a quarter of a billion dollars into the sport in one year.



***** de Amigo said:


> If your criteria for HOF is making money and defending your belt a couple of times then im glad you're not in charge , please go and look at the guys in there already and just hang your head in shame.


Most champions will go into the Hall of Fame sunshine. Certainly the ones who bring in hundreds of millions of dollars.


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## METALLICA_RULES (Feb 12, 2011)

His wrestling is solid, he needs to work on his striking though. A Brock Lesnar with good striking skills would be a great fighter.


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> lesnar is winning 10-9 in tuf fights and has guaranteed one fighter in the final with him having 3 in the semis, but no shamrock and rampage were way better:confused05:


Well winning isn't always up to being a good coach, having good fighters is th biggest part in that. Also yes Rampage and Shamrock sucked badly, but hey I said brock was top 3 right? so put him on the 3 spot then :thumb02:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

mmaswe82 said:


> Well winning isn't always up to being a good coach, having good fighters is th biggest part in that. Also yes Rampage and Shamrock sucked badly, but hey I said brock was top 3 right? so put him on the 3 spot then :thumb02:


i will add lesnar picked a crappy team bar ferguson, jds had the better team but not the better coaching


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Maazisrock said:


> No other fighter will fight. Heath herring. Randy couture. Frank Mir(twice) Shane carwin in their first 6 fights and win 5 of the fights. What Brock has accomplished, no one else could with so little mma experience.


No other fighter could do what Brock did? That's quite a bold statement. Cain would have tooled them all if he had been given the opportunity.

A dude like Cain is twice the athlete and twice the fighter Brock Lesnar is.


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## burdy (May 22, 2011)

just because hes a better fighter, doesnt mean hes a better athlete. everyone always says they have never seen a guy brocks size move so fast, not to mention being a two time NCAA champ and almost making an NFL team. if thats not athleticism i dont know what is.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

burdy said:


> just because hes a better fighter, doesnt mean hes a better athlete. everyone always says they have never seen a guy brocks size move so fast, not to mention being a two time NCAA champ and almost making an NFL team. if thats not athleticism i dont know what is.


Cain is twice as athletic. The hype Zuffa churned out for Brock was ridiculous.

"Lunchbox fists", "freak athlete" "baddest man on the planet". They painted him out to be some unstoppable athlete/monster, when the true "freak athlete" was Cain Velasquez. Brock can move fast in a straight line, sure, he's quite fast for his size, but he isn't some freak athlete. Cain is much more agile and has much better and quicker lateral movement. I wonder if Brock can even throw a head kick.

He's an athletic guy, sure, but there are guys out there much more athletic than him. Cain, Jones, Anderson, those guys are what I consider freak athletes. Not Brock, because he's huge and can move quite fast.


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## burdy (May 22, 2011)

id say yes to jones and no to cain and anderson. cain can throw a head kick sure but flexibility can be trained easily. Anderson is more skilled than an athlete.


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## JW78 (May 18, 2011)

Mckeever said:


> No other fighter could do what Brock did? That's quite a bold statement. Cain would have tooled them all if he had been given the opportunity.
> 
> A dude like Cain is twice the athlete and twice the fighter Brock Lesnar is.


Twice the fighter, maybe. Twice the athlete, absolutley not. Brock might actually be twice the athlete Cain is. But as we found out a great athlete doesn't equate to a great fighter. 

And Im almost certain that any fighter out of Cain Carwin JDS or Brock would have done the same thing Brock did his first 2 years in the UFC if given the opportunity. However Brock was a bigger name and had an easier path to the title.


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> i will add lesnar picked a crappy team bar ferguson, jds had the better team but not the better coaching


I fail to see where the "better coaching" came in from Brock, all he does is whine and talk about chicken sallad.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

mmaswe82 said:


> I fail to see where the "better coaching" came in from Brock, all he does is whine and talk about chicken sallad.


and it works:thumb02: i was like oh feck why did he pick this team when he made selections and then myles jury the only good fighter got injured so he must be doing something right


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## Maazisrock (Sep 22, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> No other fighter could do what Brock did? That's quite a bold statement. Cain would have tooled them all if he had been given the opportunity.
> 
> A dude like Cain is twice the athlete and twice the fighter Brock Lesnar is.


Umm no. Not in his first 6 fights. Cain is lucky he got passed Congo.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

Cain has good offensive striking, but he takes a lot of clean shots, he will be in trouble if he faces a powerful striker who can stop his take downs.

Edit: If Brock can just fix his reaction to getting punched, he should be able to beat Cain.


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## lpbigd4444 (Oct 1, 2008)

As far as fighting people wanna say all this stuff about Carwin woulda had him if he didnt gas but he did gas and a man's natural cardio has something to do with how athletic and gifted he is. Lesnar moves so well for a man his size (he had a 40 yard dash, vertical jump, broad jump, and 3 cone drill similar to Mario Williams when he tried out for the Vikes) and he has very good cardio for a man his size. He is also even stronger than he looks which is crazy because he looks like a total monster. The guy is a great wrestler that sometimes just needs to learn patience.. He rushed his attack on Velasquez making it easier for him to pop back up when he got taken down. Also the haters don't take into account ring rust for the Carwin fight but they bring it up every time one of their favs gets hurt (aka Shogun). For people assuming JDS wouldve smashed him I think you fail to realize the difference between defending Roy Nelson takedowns and Brock Lesnar takedowns.

Lesnar is a very strong grappler and a powerful but poor striker still trying to learn the game. Idk exactly where he ranks but between his athletic ability and his grappling prowess he is a top 5 fighter even with his poor stand up. I would say Cain is def #1 in the world and after that spots 2-6 are up for grabs and Lesnar is def in there


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Maazisrock said:


> Umm no. Not in his first 6 fights. Cain is lucky he got passed Congo.












Yes, Cain is so lucky he got past Kongo that Cheick was unable to stand up at the end of the fight. In fact, he tried to stand up and then fell back down he took that much of a beating.

"If Brock can fix his reaction to getting punched, he can beat Cain"

No, not really. Brock is still outclassed in every single area of MMA, wrestling and striking wise. He'd get beaten up on the feet and out wrestled on the mat. Cain is a top 3 MMA wrestler.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

If anyone can sprawl his takedowns, and has solid boxing Lesnar will have a short night. He's the HW equivelant of Thales Leites.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Lucky bastard.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

JW78 said:


> But as we found out a great athlete doesn't equate to a great fighter.


I disagree he was able to capture and defend the HW title and I think that's mostly due to his athleticism and his skillset.

He is already a great fighter but the HW division is becoming more competitive and he'll ether do the same or fade away.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

oops wish we could delete posts lol.


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## mmaswe82 (Feb 22, 2010)

UFC_OWNS said:


> and it works:thumb02: i was like oh feck why did he pick this team when he made selections and then myles jury the only good fighter got injured so he must be doing something right


well to be fair, Shamar won his fight, that was a robbery...Chris did nothing in that fight...ok Shamar looked fairly crappy as well but he was way better than Cope.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

It takes a special kind of athlete to throw around much bigger men than you for years and years (his wrestling career) and then completely out class another mammoth in the octagon.


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## lpbigd4444 (Oct 1, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> It takes a special kind of athlete to throw around much bigger men than you for years and years (his wrestling career) and then completely out class another mammoth in the octagon.


You can say what you want about size this and size that one of them was a D1 champ and the other was not. And the difference between a 245 lb. man and 265 lb man is nowhere near as bad as say 145 and 165 for example. Once you get that big its hard for anyone to just shove you around because he is 20 lbs heavier. Cain is a very good athlete at 245 but it is not as relevant as you might think that his opposition was often a bit heavier.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

lpbigd4444 said:


> You can say what you want about size this and size that one of them was a D1 champ and the other was not. And the difference between a 245 lb. man and 265 lb man is nowhere near as bad as say 145 and 165 for example. Once you get that big its hard for anyone to just shove you around because he is 20 lbs heavier. Cain is a very good athlete at 245 but it is not as relevant as you might think that his opposition was often a bit heavier.


It doesn't matter if Brock was a D1 champ. Credentials are worthless unless they can be transferred into the octagon. Cain fought tougher competition in his wrestling career too and is the better wrestler.


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## BlueLander (Apr 11, 2010)

People say what Lesner accomplished with his wins, beating 3 champions in his first 4 UFC fights, is something nobody else can say they did. I think this is more true due to the fact that nobody else really would get that chance. Not downplaying Lesner's accomplishments, but I think he got the shot due to his notoriety and fame. I believe Cain could have accomplished the same thing had he been given that shot from the get-go.



EDIT: Unrelated for anyone that could help. Any idea why peoples avatars and sig pictures don't show up when I'm logged into the website? When I view the site and I'm not logged in, I see them all just fine. Any help would be appreciated


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

BlueLander said:


> People say what Lesner accomplished with his wins, beating 3 champions in his first 4 UFC fights, is something nobody else can say they did. I think this is more true due to the fact that nobody else really would get that chance. Not downplaying Lesner's accomplishments, but I think he got the shot due to his notoriety and fame. I believe Cain could have accomplished the same thing had he been given that shot from the get-go.
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: Unrelated for anyone that could help. Any idea why peoples avatars and sig pictures don't show up when I'm logged into the website? When I view the site and I'm not logged in, I see them all just fine. Any help would be appreciated


It can be changed in your settings. I had the same problem back in the day:thumb02:


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## lpbigd4444 (Oct 1, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> It doesn't matter if Brock was a D1 champ. Credentials are worthless unless they can be transferred into the octagon. Cain fought tougher competition in his wrestling career too and is the better wrestler.


I don't understand how you feel Cain wrestled better competition.. they both wrestled against the best college wtestlers in the country and Lesnar did far better. He wasn just a national champ his overall record was 106-5. And as far as his mma wrestling Lesnar has been very effective.. he took Cain and Carwin down twice each and he took Randy, Mir, and Herring down as well. Nobody has just shut his wrestling down


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

I think Brock's trying to get away from relying on his wrestling and GnP & trying to become a complete fighter -- to his credit.

Those takedowns against Carwin and Velasquez weren't serious attempts. He had Velasquez down and didn't really push to complete the TD.

If Brock gets serious about taking people down, we'll see something different.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

lpbigd4444 said:


> I don't understand how you feel Cain wrestled better competition.. they both wrestled against the best college wtestlers in the country and Lesnar did far better. He wasn just a national champ his overall record was 106-5. And as far as his mma wrestling Lesnar has been very effective.. he took Cain and Carwin down twice each and he took Randy, Mir, and Herring down as well. Nobody has just shut his wrestling down


If you want to compare Cain and Brock's wrestling, watch Brock vs Heath Herring and then Cain vs Cheick Kongo. Two similiarish opponents. The difference in ability is quite clear.

He failed to control Randy throughout the fight, infact Randy briefly took Brock's back for a moment. He failed to control a fresh Carwin. In Shane's zombified state in the second round, clay guida could have taken him down and submitted him.

Cain completely shut his wrestling down. Wrestling is all about control. Brock was unable to control Cain on the mat for any more than 5-10 seconds. Cain how ever, took Brock Lesnar down, took the back position immediately and started hammering away on his head for about 20 seconds.

He's the better striker and the better wrestler.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

lpbigd4444 said:


> I don't understand how you feel Cain wrestled better competition.. they both wrestled against the best college wtestlers in the country and Lesnar did far better. He wasn just a national champ his overall record was 106-5. And as far as his mma wrestling Lesnar has been very effective.. he took Cain and Carwin down twice each and he took Randy, Mir, and Herring down as well. Nobody has just shut his wrestling down


I'm not big on amateur wrestling or anything but apparently the competition level was much higher when Cain was in college. They're both great wrestlers but Cain did outwrestle Brock in their fight.


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## rbunnell (Sep 6, 2006)

How good is Lesner? Honestly, not that good. His name sells pay per views.


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

lpbigd4444 said:


> I don't understand how you feel Cain wrestled better competition.. they both wrestled against the best college wtestlers in the country and Lesnar did far better. He wasn just a national champ his overall record was 106-5. And as far as his mma wrestling Lesnar has been very effective.. he took *Cain *and *Carwin *down twice each and he took *Randy*, Mir, and Herring down as well. *Nobody has just shut his wrestling down*


Couture was able to sprawl more than half of Lesnar's takedowns. He was only able to get him on his back intermittently due to his massive size advantage. 

Carwin made Lesnar's takedowns look terrible in the first round and almost finished him. If Carwin had a gas talk for the second round, he would have finished Lesnar easily.

He took Velasquez down? Right, he did for about 10 seconds in the first round. Then HE got taken down and turtled up immediately. Cain then beat the piss out of him for half a round before the ref called it. 

Everyone I listed successfully shut down his wrestling. You fail hard.


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## lpbigd4444 (Oct 1, 2008)

I won't argue that Brock got outwrestled in the Cain fight but I believe that was more of a tactical error than a problem with his ability. On the first takedown he was far too agressive and didn't take time to establish control he just tried to maul him and gave Cain space to get up. I do not believe anybody else in the HW division would even be able to get Cain down at all (Carwins shot is far too slow) and that in itself says something about Brocks wrestling. I believe that in MMA quick wrestlers are far more effective than brute strength wrestlers which is why Cain may very well be a more effective MMA wrestler but I do not think he was a better collegiate wrestler and I would like to see a more patient Brock if they ever had a rematch and see how they wrestle then. Also I think when Cain got Brock down and started punching him from his back Brock had already blown his load... No matter how good conditioning you have if you weigh 270 and you come flying out like the bat outta hell that he did you are gonna gas lol


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## lpbigd4444 (Oct 1, 2008)

Squirrelfighter said:


> Couture was able to sprawl more than half of Lesnar's takedowns. He was only able to get him on his back intermittently due to his massive size advantage.
> 
> Carwin made Lesnar's takedowns look terrible in the first round and almost finished him. If Carwin had a gas talk for the second round, he would have finished Lesnar easily.
> 
> ...


And I apologize for the double post but Brock was 2 for 4 against Randy and had 2 gaurd passes whereas Randy was 1 for 3 with zero passes (according to fight metric and my previoius knowledge of the fight). As for the Carwin fight Lesnar had him down briefly in the first but Carwin applied a good whizzer and popped up but then he was taken down passed and submitted in the second (i dont care if he gassed it still happened) so idk how you can say they shut down his wrestling


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

He's a top 10 fighter today because he's a big, strong wrestler. But the sport is evolving quickly and he's starting to get exposed by guys who can strike and sprawl. Ten years from now, I don't think you'll see a guy like Lesnar in the top 10 - you're going to have a complete game to get there and he doesn't have it.


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

RustyRenegade said:


> I'm not big on amateur wrestling or anything but apparently the competition level was much higher when Cain was in college. They're both great wrestlers but Cain did outwrestle Brock in their fight.


I don't think Cain purely outwrestled Brock. It was Cain's punching that made it look like he outwrestled him - he got Brock flinching and turning away and turtling up. I think straight up wrestling w/o punches Brock would beat Cain, but punches change the game.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

mastodon2222 said:


> He's a top 10 fighter today because he's a big, strong wrestler. But the sport is evolving quickly and he's starting to get exposed by guys who can strike and sprawl. Ten years from now, I don't think you'll see a guy like Lesnar in the top 10 - you're going to have a complete game to get there and he doesn't have it.


If you had written that 10 years ago about Mark Coleman I would have agreed 100%. I don't think it's accurate here.



mastodon2222 said:


> I don't think Cain purely outwrestled Brock. It was Cain's punching that made it look like he outwrestled him - he got Brock flinching and turning away and turtling up. I think straight up wrestling w/o punches Brock would beat Cain, but punches change the game.


I saw it the other way around. It was Cain's amazing wrestling gave him the opportunity to throw punches.

Don't forget that Brock took him down twice. for anyone else that would have been the fight or at least the round.

I've watched Cain bounce up from the 2nd take down 1000 times. I still don't understand how he did it.


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## PheelGoodInc (Jul 23, 2009)

Eh. Brock was Dana's little tool to sell fights and get a new crowd interested in MMA. Dana practically gift wrapped the title for Brock.

He's a good one dimensional fighter. He knows how to use his size. Thats all.


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## xxpillowxxjp (Aug 23, 2010)

PheelGoodInc said:


> Eh. Brock was Dana's little tool to sell fights and get a new crowd interested in MMA. Dana practically gift wrapped the title for Brock.
> 
> He's a good one dimensional fighter. He knows how to use his size. Thats all.


I hate people that say this. He beat the top contenders, he deserved that title. at that point and time, who was better then him in the ufc? personally i dont think cain was.. he really progressed each fight into what he is now. Dont even bring up the carwin fight. "carwin gassed" "carwin stuffed both of his shots" Thats the first round. FIRST round. Lesnar has GREAT cardio, just like cain. People forget that he was a NCAA Wrestling CHAMPION. I know for fact, as does any other person that has wrestled, wrestling is a very tiring sport, and to be a champion you cant just have O.K. cardio. It has to be the best, u have to be able to go longer then the other guy when the skill level is so evenly matched. So heres my point. Carwin gassed in the 2nd round. thats his fault. Now do you really think carwins physical endurance has increased that much since then? No. Cardio takes months and years to obtain and there is not limit to it. This fight would go just about the same way at this point and time imo. Lesnar would still be able to take carwin down in the 2nd round, no, not as easily, but he would get it. Brock will be back and everyone will see he is the real deal. He will be #1-3 HW in the ufc for a few more years, theres not doubt. If you honestly think anyone in SF can beat him... you need to wake up. There is not a strikeforce HW with wrestling of brocks caliber. I firmly believe he would take any of them down, and beat them there. Reem has the best chance with his size, knees, and bjj to beat brock but even then i think this would be a hard fight for the Reem. Sorry for the rant, im not hating on anyone, i dont favor brock or any of that. I am just stating my opinion and whats logical to me.


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## OasisSupersonic (May 25, 2011)

xxpillowxxjp said:


> He beat the top contenders, he deserved that title.


That's all there is to it, I'm not exactly Brock's biggest fan, but he did what he had to do to get a shot at the title, then he took it. There really isn't much else to it, he won the title, he was the best at the time. We can sit here and debate in hindsight about how "all he can do is strike" but he won it, he earned the title and therefore deserved it.

In saying that I was jumping about my livingroom when Velasquez beat him.


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## xxpillowxxjp (Aug 23, 2010)

OasisSupersonic said:


> "all he can do is strike"


wrestle* =). I dont think he has good boxing, but i do think he has alot of power in his hands. DEFINATELY has alot of power in his hands. how many times have u seen a HW do a backflip from getting hit with a straight right?


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