# What if Toney KOs Couture?



## UKMMAGURU (Nov 15, 2009)

What if Toney actually manages to KO Couture?

I think this has been mentioned loads of times on here since the fight got announced, and i think it's fairly unanimous that the only way Toney can win this fight is if he can somehow score a KO before Couture can take him down.

But, what if he actually manages to do it? I'm already sick of his interviews and random comments, this will probably double or triple if manages to win.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

Then he will get fed to the wolves


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Then Jon Jones will move up HW and extract Greco-Roman vengence.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

Or somebody like Pat Barry and destroy his legs


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## limba (Jul 21, 2009)

:shame02::sarcastic05:


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## Abrissbirne (Jul 4, 2010)

i guess toney will win the fight if he KOs Couture.:thumbsup:


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

I will laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh and...


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

he would talk to anyone who would listen about how great he is. the boxing world would suddenly start using it as a talking point as if they knew he would win all along. couture will retire (and join farve in ridding off into the sunset).
i will laugh when they set him up to face roy nelson and the guy uses the "Budda" to smother him in the crusifix for fifteen minutes while the ref (who happens to be yamasaki) looks the other way.


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## IllegalLegKick (Apr 13, 2010)

That would be really funny actually, to be honest I'd love to see a world class boxer come into MMA and learn some serious takedown defense. I think it would be very interesting to see how say Shogun or Machida would fair against a world class boxer on the feet.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

(Pat Barry would get DESTORYED by Toney. (ugh, in my opinion)

Barry has next to no mental game. He would crumble after getting tagged by Toney. Barry is easily one of the most over rated fighters in the UFC and I do NOT fighter bash. )

On Topic:

If Toney knocks out Couture, I will definitely not be surprized, and I will have gotten my moneys worth on the card for sure. 

Make no mistake, I want the win for MMA and I don't want to put up with hardcore boxing fans gloating for months if he does KO Randy. However, If Toney fights to his potential he is going to catch Randy at some point.

To all of those who've been going on about how sure they are sure Toney has no chance, isn't it funner to wait and see what happens? IF, just IF you are wrong about this one, it is going to be a VERY depressing night after all of this anti-hype. I just want to be mentally prepared to see Randy, the 50 year old rolling around with no idea where he is after Toney devastates him with an uppercut. 

I, think this is easilly in the top 5 most exciting matchups of the year for fans.


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## DropKick (Apr 19, 2007)

As much as I love Randy I'm almost hoping this happens. It would be hilarious actually and really, I never get sick of Toney's trash talk. On the other hand, I don't think Randy is capable of handling any of the legit fighters at LHW or HW anymore. He was gifted that decision in the Vera fight and Vera is a second tier LHW at this point. He should take this win and retire in my opinion. He isn't winning anymore titles.


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

If by some chance he KOs Couture, I'd love to see Crocop give em a go.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

If he KO's Randy than give him JDS, or the loser of Cain/Lesnar. I honestly don't expect this fight to last long. After they chase each other around for a minute or so it will either be Randy KO'ed in the middle of the cage or Toney TKO'ed on the ground up against the cage. If this fight goes to the second round something has seriously gone wrong.


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## edlavis88 (Jul 12, 2009)

if he KOs Randy, this forum gets invaded by jubilant boxing fans and life as this forum knows it ends...


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

It'll open up the worst, I told you so, smack talk ever known to man and aliens.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

If anderson wins, and TOney KO Randy August will be a great mouth. But If he does manage to KO Randy...The post press conference will be EPIC. Watching Danna trying to talk his way out of that situation would be priceless.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

If Toney wins, and Anderson loses, they have to fight in my opinion  


.00005% chance of that happening though.


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

Funner


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

We'll just do what boxing fans would do if Randy beats Toney. We pretend Randy is old and washed up and Toney wouldn't stand a chance against anyone else.


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)




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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Hammerlock2.0 said:


> We'll just do what boxing fans would do if Randy beats Toney. We pretend Randy is old and washed up and Toney wouldn't stand a chance against anyone else.





LV 2 H8 U said:


>


 a draw for the win?:thumb02::thumb02:


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## georgie17891 (Dec 21, 2008)

Randy hasnt got a great chin, and toney has one punch KO power. I honestley wouldnt be suprised if Toney won this fight.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

I can't find the info after 5 seconds of searching, but is this fight at Heavyweight or Catchweight?


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

IllegalLegKick said:


> That would be really funny actually, to be honest I'd love to see a world class boxer come into MMA and learn some serious takedown defense. I think it would be very interesting to see how say Shogun or Machida would fair against a world class boxer on the feet.


I've been saying this for a while instead of a joke Boxer like James Toney what if Wladimir Klitschko 81 Reach boxer joins the UFC.I can tell you right now Shane Carwin,JDS,Cro Cop would get picked apart hardcore.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> I've been saying this for a while instead of a joke Boxer like James Toney what if Wladimir Klitschko 81 Reach boxer joins the UFC.I can tell you right now Shane Carwin,JDS,Cro Cop would get picked apart hardcore.


Either of the Klits would loose in MMA to the fighters mentioned. They have nothing but robotic boxing and a size advantage over most of the heavyweights out there. They'd be on their backs faster than Toney. The difference between them and Toney is that they are smart enough to realize this.


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## Wookie (Jul 20, 2008)

I'll probably shit my pants, cry for a little, and then laugh my ass off. Especially because of the post fight that would be hilarious.


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## The Horticulturist (Feb 16, 2009)

Rogan, if he wins, don't ask any of the questions coming through your earpiece.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Either of the Klits would loose in MMA to the fighters mentioned. They have nothing but robotic boxing and a size advantage over most of the heavyweights out there. They'd be on their backs faster than Toney. The difference between them and Toney is that they are smart enough to realize this.


 Lol really you think Carwin is gonna outgas Klitschko?


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## Dtwizzy2k5 (Jul 7, 2008)

SJ said:


> Rogan, if he wins, don't ask any of the questions coming through your earpiece.


That interview is a great example of the difference between disrespectful thug boxers and respectful martial artists. I cant wait til Randy destroys Toney and makes him bleed.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Lol really you think Carwin is gonna outgas Klitschko?


Wouldn't need to. Neither has any ground game. It wouldn't be like fighting Lesnar. The kilts are primarily boxers (with some kickboxing a long time ago for Vitali)...thats about it. No boxer, based purely on boxing, has made any inroads into MMA. Also, the Klits do not have great cardio. They are very reserved when fighting and spend more time leaning on opponents than anything else. They don't throw combinations, it is always just jab then punch. If you want to see someone gas far worse than Carwin, just watch Wlad vs Lamon Brewster.


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## Skull Hammer (Jan 7, 2010)

well ... he's not gonna KO Couture ! 

BUT IF he does ... we'll never gonna hear the end of that !

I think it's gonna be a 15 minuets lesson in MMA !


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## KEYZER-SOZE (Jul 31, 2010)

i think goldberg and rogan will commit the first ever televised murder/suicide


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## mikegll (Aug 4, 2010)

World blows up!!!!


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## mikegll (Aug 4, 2010)

Not to mention Dana White will be pisssssed!


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

KEYZER-SOZE said:


> i think goldberg and rogan will commit the first ever televised murder/suicide


How can I get in on that?


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## mastodon2222 (Feb 4, 2010)

gazh said:


> What if Toney actually manages to KO Couture?
> 
> I think this has been mentioned loads of times on here since the fight got announced, and i think it's fairly unanimous that the only way Toney can win this fight is if he can somehow score a KO before Couture can take him down.
> 
> But, what if he actually manages to do it? I'm already sick of his interviews and random comments, this will probably double or triple if manages to win.


As an MMA fan, I have a real interest in this fight and think its a bad one for Couture, UFC an the sport in general - alot to lose and nothing to gain. Coutures a legend, but is 47 and I could see him getting koed by toney....it would be a setback for MMA imo - the boxing world is watching...go randy!


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Wouldn't need to. Neither has any ground game. It wouldn't be like fighting Lesnar. The kilts are primarily boxers (with some kickboxing a long time ago for Vitali)...thats about it. No boxer, based purely on boxing, has made any inroads into MMA. Also, the Klits do not have great cardio. They are very reserved when fighting and spend more time leaning on opponents than anything else. They don't throw combinations, it is always just jab then punch. If you want to see someone gas far worse than Carwin, just watch Wlad vs Lamon Brewster.


Wlad is a completely different fighter since Lamon Brewster every person who knows something about Boxing knows that.The Klits don't have great cardio your basing this on what? 
Trust me if Wladimir Klitschko decided to pick up MMA he's not going to jump in there like the moron James Toney,he will get his ground game down maybe a couple lessons with their friend Fedor.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

Zombies man ....fecking zombies


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Wlad is a completely different fighter since Lamon Brewster every person who knows something about Boxing knows that.The Klits don't have great cardio your basing this on what?
> Trust me if Wladimir Klitschko decided to pick up MMA he's not going to jump in there like the moron James Toney,he will get his ground game down maybe a couple lessons with their friend Fedor.


Yes...I know he is different since the Brewster fight. Since the Brewster fight Wlad has become much more reserved and boring (jab, clinch, lean, yawn). He is effective but tediously boring. He is not a great fighter, just a big man with very linear boxing and an excellent coach in Emmauel.

Now, is there any reason why Carwin can't change his approach, too? Basing Carwin's ability on one fight is inane (I was drawing a parallel between judging a fighters cardio based on one fight by mentioning Wlad's fight). The factor in Carwin's favour is years of wrestling, which Wlad is not going to pick up in 6 months (regardless of who he trains with - I mean think about it - if Carwin spent 6 months boxing would he beat Wlad?). Carwin would fcuking kill Wlad in MMA...anyone who knows anything about boxing and MMA knows that.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Yes...I know he is different since the Brewster fight. Since the Brewster fight Wlad has become much more reserved and boring (jab, clinch, lean, yawn). He is effective but tediously boring.


More reserved and Boring? you have no idea how many people will disagree with you on that one,his boring jab will destroy Carwin before he even lands one punch.



Mr. Sparkle said:


> Now, is there any reason why Carwin can't change his approach, too? Basing Carwin's ability on one fight is inane (I was drawing a parallel between judging a fighters cardio based on one fight by mentioning Wlad's fight).


Your the one basing it on one fight with Carwin,i'm basing it on Wlads 12 win streak against undefeated opponents where his Cardio makes Carwins look like a Joke.




Mr. Sparkle said:


> The factor in Carwin's favour is years of wrestling, which Wlad is not going to pick up in 6 months (regardless of who he trains with - I mean think about it - if Carwin spent 6 months boxing would he beat Wlad?). Carwin would fcuking kill Wlad in MMA...anyone who knows anything about boxing and MMA knows that.


The factor is carwin will never even come close to Wlads boxing level while all Wlad has to do is learn some take down Defense and tire Carwin out.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> More reserved and Boring? you have no idea how many people will disagree with you on that one,his boring jab will destroy Carwin before he even lands one punch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you think his fighting style is exciting, then my deepest sympathies. Also, only 4 of Wlads last 12 opponents were undefeated (where on earth did you get all were?). As far as cardio for Wlad, it looks better due to Emmanuel adapting his style to be slower and more reserved...box much? 

I would love this fight to happen and watch Wlad miss his first punch and end up flat on his back. But, it won't happen because Wlad is smart enough to know that he doesn't stand a chance.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> If you think his fighting style is exciting, then my deepest sympathies. Also, only 4 of Wlads last 12 opponents were undefeated (where on earth did you get all were?). As far as cardio for Wlad, it looks better due to Emmanuel adapting his style to be slower and more reserved...box much?
> 
> I would love this fight to happen and watch Wlad miss his first punch and end up flat on his back. But, it won't happen because Wlad is smart enough to know that he doesn't stand a chance.


Obviously i meant several of his opponents were undefeated,the problem with the Klitschko is that they don’t press hard to score knockouts in the early going of their fights, and instead prefer to wear down their opponents with an accumulation of blows this will keep the distance that Wlad need and Carwin will not stand a chance.It’s just not as interesting for some boxing fans such as your self because the Klitschko brothers typically bludgeon their opponents into submission rather than trying to take their heads off with every punch like more exciting heavyweights like Mike Tyson.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> If you think his fighting style is exciting, then my deepest sympathies. Also, only 4 of Wlads last 12 opponents were undefeated (where on earth did you get all were?). As far as cardio for Wlad, it looks better due to Emmanuel adapting his style to be slower and more reserved...box much?
> 
> I would love this fight to happen and watch Wlad miss his first punch and end up flat on his back. But, it won't happen because Wlad is smart enough to know that he doesn't stand a chance.


I'm a big Carwin fan... but in a trading of hands, he has zero chance in hell against Wlad. Carwin has been working hands for a few years, Wlad a few decades. I could see Wlad mopping the floor with Carwin in anything boxing related.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)




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## KEYZER-SOZE (Jul 31, 2010)

oldfan said:


>


:thumb02::thumb02::thumb02: nice


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## smartzone (Aug 3, 2010)

*Randy will smash Toney*

Randy will bully boxer boy like a toy!!! and destroy James Toney who will look like a phony and retire from fighting to eat macroni. Toney is bolony


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> It’s just not as interesting for some boxing fans such as your self because the Klitschko brothers typically bludgeon their opponents into submission rather than trying to take their heads off with every punch like more exciting heavyweights like Mike Tyson.


I actually prefer the styles of Chris Byrd and James Toney as far as heavies go. I like the sweet science, not what heavy weight boxing has become. With the Klits we have very large athletic men boxing in the most diluted manner. I can't take away from the fact that it works, it is just not very interesting to watch. 

Another thing to consider is that this is probably the weakest heavyweight division of all time, which makes the Klits look better than they really are. I guess it is a matter of taste, but I don't see how one can find entertainment in their boxing style. Yes, they wear their opponents down, but with all the clinching and leaning I think they often should be deducted points. 

One thing I will give Vitali (whom I prefer over Wlad) credit for is that he was in the last, imo, great heavyweight battle, against Lennox Leiws (who's style Emmanuel simplified for the less talented Wlad). Lennox was a bit out of shape and had trained to fight Kirk Johnson, but what a war. I wish Vitali hadn't been cut as that is six great rounds of toe to toe action. Had Lennox been in shape he could have easily taken out either Klit. Boxing badly needs someone of his calibre back again as the only people who like heavyweight boxing now are the Germans


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

rygu said:


> I'm a big Carwin fan... but in a trading of hands, he has zero chance in hell against Wlad. Carwin has been working hands for a few years, Wlad a few decades. I could see Wlad mopping the floor with Carwin in anything boxing related.


I am only speaking in terms of an MMA match.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

oldfan said:


>


Oldfan...is this your way of asking to be a moderator. Being a Star Wars fan will definitely help. I'd also recommend knowing UNIX as an in (but you probably already knew that). 

BTW, if the new Star Wars films always made you uncomfortable in a strange way, this may help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Oldfan...is this your way of asking to be a moderator. Being a Star Wars fan will definitely help. I'd also recommend knowing UNIX as an in (but you probably already knew that).
> 
> BTW, if the new Star Wars films always made you uncomfortable in a strange way, this may help:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI


hahaha I've just always wanted to use that. I thought it was cool.

...now, not so much..

I do use linux... so ...


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## Couchwarrior (Jul 13, 2007)

Back on topic:

I think it would be a bit embarrassing, but still anyone have to admit that he's got a puncher's chance. If he won by decision or submission, that would just be too weird. 

But for me personally, I don't think it would suck as bad if Toney won as it would if Sonnen took the belt from Silva. It's come to the point now that my ears start bleeding when I hear Sonnen's voice, while Toney's interviews are still kind of funny in a cute way, whenever I hear what he's saying through his mumbling. His interviews remind me of that old Cosby show, Kids Say the Darndest Things. Even the interviewers usually sound a bit like they're interviewing a child when they ask him something.


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## anth brown (Apr 27, 2008)

Bknmax said:


> The factor is carwin will never even come close to Wlads boxing level while all Wlad has to do is learn some take down Defense and tire Carwin out.


what a retarded comment.... its like saying all carwin has to do is learn how to block klits punc hes and hes got it in the bag

wtf ??

you think that learning a bit of take down defence is enough to stop someone of carwins level of wrestling ? im surprised ur a true fan of mma if you know that little

at klits age its very doubtful he will be able to learn much in that sense... just watch how terrible toney looks trying to stuff randys in their fight

carwin would slam wlad all over the place


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

MMA would take a HUGE blow after that no matter what. One of MMA's most decorated and accomplished fighter get's KO'd by a boxer in MMA rules would silence the talks of which sport really is superior for a while. And we can't rule it out that James Toney might get the KO. Doubt it, but it's still an option.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

Rauno™;1237024 said:


> MMA would take a HUGE blow after that no matter what. One of MMA's most decorated and accomplished fighter get's KO'd by a boxer in MMA rules would silence the talks of which sport really is superior for a while. And we can't rule it out that James Toney might get the KO. Doubt it, but it's still an option.



we shouldn't get caught up in the boxing vs mma stuff. thats for the promotors and the fighters to boost their ego.

I doubt if toney KO's randy under 10 seconds everyone will be like, "well boxing is better lets go watch that." thats not happening.


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## GMK13 (Apr 20, 2009)

Couture has great gameplans for all of his fights, so im quite sure he wont stand with toney, its gonna go straight to the ground where couture either submits or gets a decision over toney.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

anth brown said:


> what a retarded comment.... its like saying all carwin has to do is learn how to block klits punc hes and hes got it in the bag


LoL learn to block Wlads punches are you retarded? The coaches of Ibragimov,Eddie Chambers,Ruslan Chagaev,Hasim Rahman couldn't figure out how to block Wlads punches you think Carwin will.



anth brown said:


> you think that learning a bit of take down defence is enough to stop someone of carwins level of wrestling ?


Can you even comprehend the amount of damage Carwin will receive from just the Jabs with MMA gloves,you think Carwin is gonna catch Wlad like he cought Brock?


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> *LoL learn to block Wlads punches are you retarded? The coaches of Ibragimov,Eddie Chambers,Ruslan Chagaev,Hasim Rahman couldn't figure out how to block Wlads punches you think Carwin will.*
> 
> 
> Can you even comprehend the amount of damage Carwin will receive from just the Jabs with MMA gloves,you think Carwin is gonna catch Wlad like he cought Brock?


He was being sarcastic you idiot.


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## Alex_DeLarge (Sep 5, 2006)

Then I'd be happy to see thousands of pretentious elitist MMA fans weep in disbelief as if some "IMPOSTER" from another sport/activity could possibly pick up the impossible fee of MMA!1

I was happy to see Lesnar dominate, hopefully Toney is next.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> He was being sarcastic you idiot.





> what a retarded comment.... its like saying all carwin has to do is learn how to block klits punc hes and hes got it in the bag


how is that sarcasm moron


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## Squirrelfighter (Oct 28, 2009)

Mckeever said:


> He was being sarcastic you idiot.





Bknmax said:


> how is that sarcasm moron



Sounded remarkably like sarcasm to me as well. No need to get all pissy about it!

On the topic at hand, I doubt Toney could even land a solid, let alone actually get the KO. He'll spend the whole fight up against the cage or on his back, plain and simple. 

However if in some amazing way he managed to get a flash KO, or Couture decided to throw his gameplan to the wind and stand with Toney, I will have to build that bomb shelter and wait for the raining fire...


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> how is that sarcasm moron


Are you trolling or just that dumb to not detect the sarcasm in his post?


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mckeever said:


> Are you trolling or just that dumb to not detect the sarcasm in his post?


WTF are you talking about who backs up the point that their trying to make with sarcasm, the only troll here is you who calls people idiots for no reason


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

What if Toney KO's Couture?








_Tryin to get em back on subject._


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## daveh98 (May 26, 2007)

Toney is NOT representing boxing(despite what he says). He is too old to learn new tricks; David Haye, Andre Berto would be interesting however. This is not MMA Vs boxing; "which one is better" as this is an MMA fight. It is mostly MMA fans hyping and talking about it. Boxing fans rarely mention this fight. 

You didn't hear a bunch of boxers say boxing is better than MMA after Mercer's win. This is just a marketing job. Can I see Toney win? Kinda. Higher level boxing does make it hard to shoot a takedown and we are seeing that more and more with fighters standing and not risking a takedown. Has toney learned enough to prevent them? No. Does he care? no. Is he tougher and more talented than most people think given his age and past prime status? yes. Do MMA fighters think boxing sucks or is dying? no. Do boxers respect MMA? yes. Do they train together? yes. Will a boxer or MMA fighter be surprised if either fighter wins? no.


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## americanfighter (Sep 27, 2006)

if tony does ko randy it would be the worst possible thing to happen to mma fans. sure Dana would eventualy feed him to a real mma fighter thats not past his prime but that would be a long time. right after it happens this forum would be hijacked by boxing fans that would come and do nothing but troll and bash the ufc. I really hope randy not only wins but beats toney so bad that you wont be able to recognize him after the fight. Leave no doubt rand and compleatly dominate this guy.


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## joey__stalin (Dec 31, 2006)

how can Toney KO him if he's tossing him to the side with his gold belt level grappling?


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## Mirage445 (Dec 20, 2006)

joey__stalin said:


> how can Toney KO him if he's tossing him to the side with his gold belt level grappling?


Side bitch toss + side check kick = KO

You're lucky Mr. Toney didn't hear you disrespect him.


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## Rygu (Jul 21, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> I am only speaking in terms of an MMA match.


Well in terms of an MMA match, Carwin should win no problem.


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## Can.Opener (Apr 8, 2009)

He’d get fed up the chain… however this is a very ambitious thread.

Toney is going to get mauled and he knows it.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Can.Opener said:


> He’d get fed up the chain… however this is a very ambitious thread.
> 
> Toney is going to get mauled and he knows it.


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## KEYZER-SOZE (Jul 31, 2010)

Mirage445 said:


> Side bitch toss + side check kick = KO
> 
> You're lucky Mr. Toney didn't hear you disrespect him.


just in case he did i got 911 on speed dial and im ready to report a homicide, because that man is a death fighter like his daddy


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## Climbing (Aug 6, 2010)

*No Big Deal*

It certainly doesn't make Toney the better fighter. He has a punchers chance, and that's always a small possibility 

BLACK DEVIL MMA, downtown Toronto baby 
~Strength and honour~


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## MMA-Matt (Mar 20, 2010)

Toney has a legit shot at winning. He's a great boxer and each fight/round starts on the feet. I'm sure he's working on timing uppercuts for whenever Randy shoots for a takedown. But if that fails at least he's Gold Level.


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## anth brown (Apr 27, 2008)

Bknmax said:


> LoL learn to block Wlads punches are you retarded? The coaches of Ibragimov,Eddie Chambers,Ruslan Chagaev,Hasim Rahman couldn't figure out how to block Wlads punches you think Carwin will.
> 
> 
> Can you even comprehend the amount of damage Carwin will receive from just the Jabs with MMA gloves,you think Carwin is gonna catch Wlad like he cought Brock?


no i dont think carwin can learn to block wlads punches... im not saying that - its idiotic to think so

just like the statement of 'all he has to do is learn some takedown defence' is also idiotic

do you think that dan hardy never learned take down defence against GSP?? hes not doubt been learning take down defence for years, doesnt mean you're in with a legitimate stop of stopping takedowns.... rediculous statement


ive only been doing wrestling for a year but my friend whos 3 stone heavier than me & has been studying it for 3 months cant stop my takedowns... the gap between carwins ability & what wlad can get to at this stage in his career is impossibly wide


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## LV 2 H8 U (Nov 7, 2006)

rygu said:


> Well in terms of an MMA match, Carwin should win no problem.


Why does this have to be clarified in every conversation? Everyone knows that Boxers can beat MMA guys in a "boxing" match, but saying that a boxer is going to win in MMA based on boxing skills only is the part that gets stupid.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

LV 2 H8 U said:


> Why does this have to be clarified in every conversation? Everyone knows that Boxers can beat MMA guys in a "boxing" match, but saying that a boxer is going to win in MMA based on boxing skills only is the part that gets stupid.


Because there are some people who don't understand the limitations of boxing and feel that all boxers have magical powers (like the little Chinese man in the mountain with his touch of death) and can KO any opponent with only a jab.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Because there are some people who don't understand the limitations of boxing and feel that all boxers have magical powers (like the little Chinese man in the mountain with his touch of death) and can KO any opponent with only a jab.


Now you've gone and put the jinx on.
If Toney knocks Randy out with a jab I'll never forgive you.

Your post count reminds me of something I need to do. ....back soon


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Because there are some people who don't understand the limitations of boxing and feel that all boxers have magical powers (like the little Chinese man in the mountain with his touch of death) and can KO any opponent with only a jab.


Some people are also to dumb to realize what a NATURAL athlete is,when you are THE BEST HW IN THE WORLD it's not that hard for you to get a grasp of a different sport(if you drop the current one).Wlad spends his life in the Gym you think he can't learn MMA or it's not allowed? you think a joke like Carwin who started his MMA career in 2005 can simply win with Take Downs and not gas out against a guy WHO FINISHES HIS opponents in later Rounds.Carwin won an NCAA Division II championship ONCE big deal against who? 
Please don't disrespect The hw Boxing Champion of the World with a joke like Carwin.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Some people are also to dumb to realize what a NATURAL athlete is,when you are THE BEST HW IN THE WORLD it's not that hard for you to get a grasp of a different sport(if you drop the current one).Wlad spends his life in the Gym you think he can't learn MMA or it's not allowed? you think a joke like Carwin who started his MMA career in 2005 can simply win with Take Downs and not gas out against a guy WHO FINISHES HIS opponents in later Rounds.Carwin won an NCAA Division II championship ONCE big deal against who?
> Please don't disrespect The hw Boxing Champion of the World with a joke like Carwin.


Huh...what...did you say something...sorry, I must have dozed off.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Huh...what...did you say something...sorry, I must have dozed off.


You would since you haven't made one legitimate point yet


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> You would since you haven't made one legitimate point yet


I hear that next year Wlad will be in the Tour de France (winning it, of course), the NBA's leading scorer and MVP and plans to win both the European Championships and the World Cup with the Ukrainian national soccer team. All of this is totally feasible as Wlad is the greatest athlete in the world and can train for any sport and dominate it in 6 months, where other people have to train their whole lives just to be good in one.

There, does that appeal to your little Wlad fantasy world.


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## fullcontact (Sep 16, 2006)

The Natural retires, Toney will challenge Brock and get annihilated. 

Toney will then get fed to Roy Nelson. He will lose by smuttering.


The Natural will make yet another comeback at 205 beating perhaps Rich Franklin by decision.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> I hear that next year Wlad will be in the Tour de France (winning it, of course), the NBA's leading scorer and MVP and plans to win both the European Championships and the World Cup with the Ukrainian national soccer team. All of this is totally feasible as Wlad is the greatest athlete in the world and can train for any sport and dominate it in 6 months, where other people have to train their whole lives just to be good in one.
> 
> There, does that appeal to your little Wlad fantasy world.


Boxing is part of MMA NBA is not part of NFL i'm done talking to your a retard


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

Thats why theres an ignore option...Stop name calling


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## Tyson2011 (Jan 12, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Boxing is part of MMA NBA is not part of NFL i'm done talking to your a retard


+20 cool points to the first person who points out the idiocy in this post


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Tyson2011 said:


> +20 cool points to the first person who points out the idiocy in this post


1. No punctuation
2. Bad grammer
3. Should be "you're", not "your."


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> 1. No punctuation
> 2. Bad grammer
> 3. Should be "you're", not "your."


i didn't know i was being graded on an essay from my iphone lol get a life


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Tyson2011 said:


> +20 cool points to the first person who points out the idiocy in this post


Are you confused about the example that i made?


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## Majortom505 (Jun 23, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Boxing is part of MMA NBA is not part of NFL i'm done talking to your a retard


You are(you're) criticizing someone about their intelligence while using your for you're.

BTW "retard" is a medical term for a certain level of ability/IQ. It's a hateful way you abused the term.

You have to be pretty low to throw around hateful/hurtful word's. Try looking at something through someone else's eye's once in a while.

-- 
Wisdom exists, it's not commonly found.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> i didn't know i was being graded on an essay from my iphone lol get a life


Ah, I see. It is the iPhones fault that you can not articulate a point in a clear and concise manner. My apologies.


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## ESPADA9 (Oct 13, 2006)

Bknmax said:


> Some people are also to dumb to realize what a NATURAL athlete is,when you are THE BEST HW IN THE WORLD it's not that hard for you to get a grasp of a different sport(if you drop the current one).Wlad spends his life in the Gym you think he can't learn MMA or it's not allowed? you think a joke like Carwin who started his MMA career in 2005 can simply win with Take Downs and not gas out against a guy WHO FINISHES HIS opponents in later Rounds.Carwin won an NCAA Division II championship ONCE big deal against who?
> Please don't disrespect The hw Boxing Champion of the World with a joke like Carwin.


Using your rationale an Olympic level wrestler could just "pick up boxing" and be successful after "some training" because "Some people are also to dumb to realize what a NATURAL athlete is,when you are THE BEST HW IN THE WORLD it's not that hard for you to get a grasp of a different sport."

Are you still in grade school?

Next thing you know power lifters will be winning marathons, NBA stars will be winning gold medals in gymnastics, tennis stars will be starting linebackers with the NY Giants, etc.:confused03:


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Majortom505 said:


> You are(you're) criticizing someone about their intelligence while using your for you're.
> 
> BTW "retard" is a medical term for a certain level of ability/IQ. It's a hateful way you abused the term.
> 
> ...


Try reading the thread before stating the obvious i'm not the one who started calling people idiots.



Mr. Sparkle said:


> Ah, I see. It is the iPhones fault that you can not articulate a point in a clear and concise manner. My apologies.





> Obviously i meant several of his opponents were undefeated,the problem with the Klitschko is that they don’t press hard to score knockouts in the early going of their fights, and instead prefer to wear down their opponents with an accumulation of blows this will keep the distance that Wlad needs and Carwin will not stand a chance.It’s just not as interesting for some boxing fans such as your self because the Klitschko brothers typically bludgeon their opponents into submission rather than trying to take their heads off with every punch like more exciting heavyweights like Mike Tyson.


This was my Point 

Your answer


> I actually prefer the styles of Chris Byrd and James Toney as far as heavies go. I like the sweet science, not what heavy weight boxing has become. With the Klits we have very large athletic men boxing in the most diluted manner. I can't take away from the fact that it works, it is just not very interesting to watch.


 No one gives a shit what you prefer good legitimate answer to my fact.


Once again my point 


> Some people are also to dumb to realize what a NATURAL athlete is,when you are THE BEST HW IN THE WORLD it's not that hard for you to get a grasp of a different sport(if you drop the current one).Wlad spends his life in the Gym you think he can't learn MMA or it's not allowed? you think a joke like Carwin who started his MMA career in 2005 can simply win with Take Downs and not gas out against a guy WHO FINISHES HIS opponents in later Rounds.Carwin won an NCAA Division II championship ONCE big deal against who?
> Please don't disrespect The hw Boxing Champion of the World with a joke like Carwin.


Your answer


> Huh...what...did you say something...sorry, I must have dozed off.


And your telling me that i need to make a point in a clear and concise manner,let me know when you actually answer something.



ESPADA9 said:


> Using your rationale an Olympic level wrestler could just "pick up boxing" and be successful after "some training" because "Some people are also to dumb to realize what a NATURAL athlete is,when you are THE BEST HW IN THE WORLD it's not that hard for you to get a grasp of a different sport."
> 
> Are you still in grade school?
> 
> Next thing you know power lifters will be winning marathons, NBA stars will be winning gold medals in gymnastics, tennis stars will be starting linebackers with the NY Giants, etc.:confused03:


Um i'm not sure where you live but NBA stars did play Baseball And Boxers did fight in MMA, Football athletes played in the NBA.So the HW Champion of the world can do a little MMA trust me.
Are you still in grade school that you don't know that?


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Granted, having played and mastering a sport are different. Jordon sucked balls at baseball and I think Bo Jackson is the only duel pro who was actually quite good at both football and baseball. Not just double dipping quietly, but an outright star in both. I can't think of any duel masters of a sport. A lot of legitimate D1 players star in multiple sports, but I can't think of any pro "stars" of multiple sports.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

VolcomX311 said:


> Granted, having played and mastering a sport are different. Jordon sucked balls at baseball and I think Bo Jackson is the only duel pro who was actually quite good at both football and baseball. Not just double dipping quietly, but an outright star in both. I can't think of any duel masters of a sport. A lot of legitimate D1 players star in multiple sports, but I can't think of any pro "stars" of multiple sports.


Charlie Ward,Jordan,Marion Jones,Deion Sanders,Jackie Robinson,John Elway i can go on all day that wasn't even the point that i was trying to make.It's harder for an athlete like MJ to go play Baseball because it's a completely different sport Boxing is part of MMA and Wlad mastered Boxing while Carwin is not the best Wrestler does anyone on these forums actually get that.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> This was my Point
> 
> Your answer
> No one gives a shit what you prefer good legitimate answer to my fact.
> ...


I have made my point clearly, you are just too obtuse to understand it. You obviously do not understand boxing, the current state of the HW division (which I could write an essay on, but I doubt you'd get it), Wlads limitations and that one can not just cross over into another sport just because one is presently dominant in another. 

Just because Wlad boxes does not mean he could just switch to wrestling and pick it up overnight. You have nothing to back this up. Carwin could fight Wlad tomorrow in an MMA match and win no problem. It is Wlad who would need the time to try and prepare for Carwin, not the other way around. Also, Wlad becoming good at wrestling is essentially the same as Wlad suddenly becoming a star athlete in another sport. The is nothing similar about boxing and wrestling, but you can not seem to grasp this. I have done both and being good at one does not translate into being good at another. 

All you keep coming back with is the cardio issue (which Wlad himself has suffered from). I explained clearly how he and his trainer have dealt with it and you still don't get it. You just keep harping about Carwin's cardio. Carwin's one loss may have been cardio related, but there was an article about it where it was suggested that it was a different issue, not cardio related, but more of a breathing issue and an adrenaline dump. This is correctable, but you can not seem to grasp that either. You are blinded by his one loss and have condemned based on that. Yet, when Wlad is questioned you have all kinds of excuses for him

He is another fact for you, Wlad has a weak chin and has been KTFO by three bums (Puritty, Sanders and Lamon). The way he fights now he is obviously afraid to get hit and does not engage. The style is boring and painful to watch. You are the only person who seems to think otherwise. Do some research, read what some boxing writers have to say on the issue. 

I am sure after writing this though that you will revet back to ad hominem attacks as you really have nothing to offer on the subject.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> I have made my point clearly, you are just too obtuse to understand it. You obviously do not understand boxing, the current state of the HW division (which I could write an essay on, but I doubt you'd get it), Wlads limitations and that one can not just cross over into another sport just because one is presently dominant in another.
> 
> Just because Wlad boxes does not mean he could just switch to wrestling and pick it up overnight. You have nothing to back this up. Carwin could fight Wlad tomorrow in an MMA match and win no problem. It is Wlad who would need the time to try and prepare for Carwin, not the other way around. Also, Wlad becoming good at wrestling is essentially the same as Wlad suddenly becoming a star athlete in another sport. The is nothing similar about boxing and wrestling, but you can not seem to grasp this. I have done both and being good at one does not translate into being good at another.
> 
> ...



WOW you just repeated what i stated in a previous post you keep repeating the same shit did i say that he will do it over night no i said it would take him more then a year and that he wont jump into MMA like James Toney did.Boxing being the weakest right now IS YOUR OPINION and an American Biased opinion, this is why Wlad fights only in Germany right now.
But whatever you win Carwin is a better wrestler then Wlad nothing Wlad can do about that your right.


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Charlie Ward,Jordan,Marion Jones,Deion Sanders,Jackie Robinson,John Elway i can go on all day that wasn't even the point that i was trying to make.It's harder for an athlete like MJ to go play Baseball because it's a completely different sport Boxing is part of MMA and Wlad mastered Boxing while Carwin is not the best Wrestler does anyone on these forums actually get that.


Again, my point was, "having played" is different from "mastering." If you think Jordon mastered baseball being a nobody in the minor leagues short of his reputation as a basketball player, then we have different definitions for mastering. Jordon didn't even play pro ball, he never left a low tier minors team. 

As for boxers crossing over to MMA because they are like sports, I don't have an issue with that. There are plenty of MMA fights that remain standing the entire time. However, the only people at the top of their game who only struck with little show of kicks & TD's was Chuck Lidell really and that's also because he had good TDD. At this point of MMA evolution, a pure striker would be hard pressed to make it past mid-tier.

I don't think there's any problem with boxers crossing over. It would just take more convincing to believe a boxer who boxed his whole life, could make the transition to MMA and with a few short years of wrestling/BJJ training could become champ. Not saying it couldn't happen, I'd just have to see it to believe it.


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## UKMMAGURU (Nov 15, 2009)

I would like to thank all the people who actually took the time to participate in the discussion this thread was supposed to be about, cheers all.

:thumbsup:


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

gazh said:


> I would like to thank all the people who actually took the time to participate in the discussion this thread was supposed to be about, cheers all.
> 
> :thumbsup:


What do you think will happen in this fight?You don't think Dana knows exactly whats going to happen?Dana can't afford fighters like Wlad who got payed over 4 mil in his last fight or any other legitimate Boxer so he goes after James Toney and puts him against a legend to prove that MMA is better.


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## G_Land (Aug 11, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Try reading the thread before stating the obvious i'm not the one who started calling people idiots.





Bknmax said:


> This was my Point
> 
> Your answer
> No one gives a shit what you prefer good legitimate answer to my fact.
> ...





Bknmax said:


> Um i'm not sure where you live but NBA stars did play Baseball And Boxers did fight in MMA, Football athletes played in the NBA.So the HW Champion of the world can do a little MMA trust me.
> Are you still in grade school that you don't know that?


 
Holy triple post Batman are you serious????


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## zarny (Mar 4, 2007)

James Toney has a 30-60 sec window to win this fight. 

Randy's striking is average for mma. Against Toney he is completely outclassed. Randy knows this. Toney knows this.

Randy's opening exchange is going to include driving Toney against the cage in the clinch. 

If Toney catches Randy coming in he could very well go to sleep. It's entirely possible. 

If he doesn't James Toney is F-cked. 

It's true...Randy has never been hit by someone like James Toney.

Well JT...you have never been in the clinch with an Olympic caliber greco-roman wrestler as strong as Randy Couture.

Other wrestlers marvel at how strong Randy is. Old man strength. Lesnar couldn't hold Randy down. If Couture can rag doll Gonzaga James Toney isn't going to be a problem.

Randy will wear Toney down till he's sucking wind, beat him up, and then he is going to choke Toney out just to rub it in. The only question is whether or not Toney will tap.

IMO.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Boxing being the weakest right now IS YOUR OPINION and an American Biased opinion


Well...here is Wlad's own coach on the subject, but I guess he is wrong too:



> Q: On a somewhat related note Emanuel, a lot of fans claim that the heavyweight division is weak right now. Can you recall any time in history where the division had a similar state and what do you think needs to be done in order for this to recover in the eyes of the fans?
> 
> A: I think that the heavyweight division is the weakest that I ever saw it, that I can recall, I would put it this way, but if you look back at history it happens like this. I think it’s worse now because you don’t have anything coming from the amateurs. That’s what troubles me. It used to be weak, but you always had the George Foreman or even Klitschko. He is the last of the amateur program fighters from ’96. He’s the last product that came from the amateur system to the pros and that was what, about fourteen years ago now, and that’s what the problem is. There’s nothing coming from the amateur system, and I don’t see it worldwide, even these Cubans or whatever and the Russians. I don’t see much coming. I don’t see anything else coming up. It’s a weak heavyweight division and I don’t see anything too much coming up that’s going to make it any better in the future.
> 
> ...


So, what do you have to say about that? HW boxing is in Germany as no one wants to watch a crappy product anymore. And, btw, I am not an American.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Well...here is Wlad's own coach on the subject, but I guess he is wrong too:
> 
> 
> 
> So, what do you have to say about that? HW boxing is in Germany as no one wants to watch a crappy product anymore. And, btw, I am not an American.


Nobody in AMERICA wants to watch Wlad destroy American Boxers who are all Garbage right now, every one still wants to watch Mayweather right? there is no competition out there for Wlad ? really?David Haye would be a sell out in MSG,so would Samuel Peter,it's all about the American Media every time Klitchko fights american commentators cry on how Mike Tyson would destroy Wlad or Lewis the fact is Lewis got owned in the fight with Vitali and we will never know what would happen if Tyson fought Wlad.Just because American Boxers aren't at the top right now means the HW div is weak ?give me a break.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> Nobody in AMERICA wants to watch Wlad destroy American Boxers who are all Garbage right now, every one still wants to watch Mayweather right? there is no competition out there for Wlad ? really?David Haye would be a sell out in MSG,so would Samuel Peter,it's all about the American Media every time Klitchko fights american commentators cry on how Mike Tyson would destroy Wlad or Lewis the fact is Lewis got owned in the fight with Vitali and we will never know what would happen if Tyson fought Wlad.Just because American Boxers aren't at the top right now means the HW div is weak ?give me a break.


Did you even read the article? Do you have any reading comprehension skills at all? Emmanuel is not just talking about the US. It is not all about American media. If it was, Lennox would never have fought in the USA. He's British, remember? David Haye is only moving up to HW as he knows what a weak division it is - though I think the size disparity will be too much for him if he fights a Klit. Peters has already been beaten by both brothers (even though he did drop Wlad 3 times and ended up loosing a UD). Wlad is fighting him again next in Frankfurt. So yes, there really is no competition for the rockem-sockem-robots.

Perhaps the American commentators are right, seeing how it has always been the mecca of boxing, that the brothers would loose to fighters of the recent past. Maybe it is because they actually know the sport and are speaking objectively.

If you read that article, with words from the trainer of Wlad, a coaching legend, and still think it is a strong division, then I really don't know what to say other than you must have only been watching boxing for the past decade or less.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

oops, sorry... I was looking for the mma forum.

Don't be so shy Mr. sparkle, tell him what you really think.:thumb02:


edit: forgot the all important smile ...cause I love ya spark


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

What if Toney knocks Couture out? The earth's magnetic poles will reverse. Duh.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Did you even read the article? Do you have any reading comprehension skills at all? Emmanuel is not just talking about the US. It is not all about American media. If it was, Lennox would never have fought in the USA. He's British, remember? David Haye is only moving up to HW as he knows what a weak division it is - though I think the size disparity will be too much for him if he fights a Klit. Peters has already been beaten by both brothers (even though he did drop Wlad 3 times and ended up loosing a UD). Wlad is fighting him again next in Frankfurt. So yes, there really is no competition for the rockem-sockem-robots.
> 
> Perhaps the American commentators are right, seeing how it has always been the mecca of boxing, that the brothers would loose to fighters of the recent past. Maybe it is because they actually know the sport and are speaking objectively.
> 
> If you read that article, with words from the trainer of Wlad, a coaching legend, and still think it is a strong division, then I really don't know what to say other than you must have only been watching boxing for the past decade or less.


No i randomly decided to answer you without reading the article,yeah it was the Mecca when Ali and Tyson were champs fighting Frazier and Holyfield but when Wlad has the Belt and makes all his opponents look weak then the HW div is weak lol You'r saying Wlad wouldn't have a chance against prime Tyson or Frazier?


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## VolcomX311 (Aug 18, 2009)

swpthleg said:


> What if Toney knocks Couture out? The earth's magnetic poles will reverse. Duh.


I wouldn't be surprised, cause I know Toney has the tools to KO anyone, but I would still be speechless. Like watching fatal car crash.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Bknmax said:


> No i randomly decided to answer you without reading the article,yeah it was the Mecca when Ali and Tyson were champs fighting Frazier and Holyfield but when Wlad has the Belt and makes all his opponents look weak then the HW div is weak lol You'r saying Wlad wouldn't have a chance against prime Tyson or Frazier?


Read the article again and see if a third time will clear it up for you.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Charlie Ward,Jordan,Marion Jones,Deion Sanders,Jackie Robinson,John Elway i can go on all day that wasn't even the point that i was trying to make.It's harder for an athlete like MJ to go play Baseball because it's a completely different sport* Boxing is part of MMA* and Wlad mastered Boxing while Carwin is not the best Wrestler does anyone on these forums actually get that.


This is completly wrong. Boxing is not mma, boxing is not a part of mma. Aspects of boxing can be used but the stance is wrong the movements can be wrong, the defense is wrong. Just because some of the fundamental movements are the same don't kid yourself that is like saying any quarterback could go be a MLB pitcher because they both throw balls. I think you fail to realize just how specialized an elite level boxer is in what he looks for how he moves and how this is second nature, its not a clear logical thought that he can simply turn on or off. Boxers have one crappy in K-1 because they just can't adapt to kicks and that is just one more aspect never mind the ground game, TD's. etc.


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## mathruD (Aug 16, 2009)

toney does have a chance to ko couture, but i agree with everyone else who says that window of opportunity will be very small. as long as couture doesn't get drilled on the way in, it will be a wrap. if it were someone i liked fighting couture i would hope for them to be him, though, b/c as good as randy has been in the past, it's time for him to hang it up. he's extremely boring to watch these days.


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## daveh98 (May 26, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Well...here is Wlad's own coach on the subject, but I guess he is wrong too:
> 
> 
> 
> So, what do you have to say about that? HW boxing is in Germany as no one wants to watch a crappy product anymore. And, btw, I am not an American.


That is true about boxing and the dwindling amateur pedigrees ALL fighters were expected to have. Now only LWW, WW and JM divisions are stacked with fighters with hundreds of amateur fights. However the K brothers are top tier despite being victim of weak divisions. MMA has yet to really have established amateurs. It will get deeper but right now it is still an easier sport to break into the spotlight. Fighters usually dont even fight amateur and just go pro in MMA; and use their base style as their "background" before training MMA.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> This is completly wrong. Boxing is not mma, boxing is not a part of mma. Aspects of boxing can be used but the stance is wrong the movements can be wrong, the defense is wrong. Just because some of the fundamental movements are the same don't kid yourself that is like saying any quarterback could go be a MLB pitcher because they both throw balls. I think you fail to realize just how specialized an elite level boxer is in what he looks for how he moves and how this is second nature, its not a clear logical thought that he can simply turn on or off. Boxers have one crappy in K-1 because they just can't adapt to kicks and that is just one more aspect never mind the ground game, TD's. etc.


um you quoted me and then repeated what i wrote ,i never said Boxing is MMA :confused02:i said Wlad mastered Boxing not anyone else,and if your saying Boxing is not part of MMA then your wrong.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

That is exactly what I am saying. Just because aspects of a sport are borrowed does not mean it is a part of MMA, No fighter in MMA has successfully utilized pure boxing, are certain aspects adapted to MMA well yes but that hardly makes it boxing, they are not boxing in the cage the way boxers box in a ring they may be striking but they are not boxing.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> That is exactly what I am saying. Just because aspects of a sport are borrowed does not mean it is a part of MMA, No fighter in MMA has successfully utilized pure boxing, are certain aspects adapted to MMA well yes but that hardly makes it boxing, they are not boxing in the cage the way boxers box in a ring they may be striking but they are not boxing.


Ok but your wrong in the fact that guys like Ray Mercer and James Toney have utilized boxing and Wlad, so if you put them in the cage they will still box the same way.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bknmax said:


> Ok but your wrong in the fact that guys like Ray Mercer and James Toney have utilized boxing and Wlad, so if you put them in the cage they will still box the same way.


It they box the same way they will likely get hurt. Mercer go t taken down by Kimbo because he tried to box despite the fact Kimbo sucks and it was his first MMA fight. Boxing defense relies on the fact there is no TD, no kicks and they hide behind big ass gloves which work good to block big ass gloves. Problem is in MMA they kick, Takedown and there isn't a big ass glove in sight.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> It they box the same way they will likely get hurt. Mercer go t taken down by Kimbo because he tried to box despite the fact Kimbo sucks and it was his first MMA fight. Boxing defense relies on the fact there is no TD, no kicks and they hide behind big ass gloves which work good to block big ass gloves. Problem is in MMA they kick, Takedown and there isn't a big ass glove in sight.


Ok i agree witch is why Wlad who has 81 Reach and a gas tank above 9 Rounds with some decent MMA training would do some damage no? James Toney and Ray Mercer are not Wlad.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

possibly but its not that simple either because they have to unlearn things that they have hammered in till they just come naturally. Think about trying to quit a bad habit and how many fighters have them and struggle to adjust and get rid of them. Well boxers going into mma are gonna have a entire repertoire of bad habits that make it extremely difficult to adjust. It can be I am sure to some extent but it is nowhere near as simple as you make it out to be.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Bknmax said:


> Ok i agree witch is why Wlad who has 81 Reach and a gas tank above 9 Rounds with some decent MMA training would do some damage no? James Toney and Ray Mercer are not Wlad.


Wlad's an underrated boxer, he was beating Lennox Lewis before the doctor stoppage. Lewis promptly retired after the win*.

Still, this isn't his sport. No one would be dumb enough to trade with him - including kickboxers/Muai Thai guys, and elite level MMA for a guy with his from would a few years.

The best cross over athletes IMO are 1. Wrestlers 2. BJJ 3. Muai Thai 4. Kick Boxers 5. Straight boxers.

Also very curious to see how some of the tree-trunk legged, uber-agile running backs that can't cut it in the NFL for being too short would do if they crossed over - into LW/WW. The 5'6"-5'8", 165-190lbs RB that knocks 250+ lbs defensive ends / blitzing linebackers off their feet or come out oft the traffic of monsters, breaking tackles, juking, eyes behind their head types. Aldo has that body frame and his explosiveness is ridiculous. These are caliber athletes that MMA doesn't have, yet. The money for these guys has to come first - not boxing money - but atleast equivalent to NFL minimum or even 'summer league' NBA player money.

I know Jon Jones' brother Chandler Jones was a 5th round pick, sadly, even if Jon Jones makes his way to to LHW champ, his brother will be earning more or about the same for years.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

daveh98 said:


> That is true about boxing and the dwindling amateur pedigrees ALL fighters were expected to have. Now only LWW, WW and JM divisions are stacked with fighters with hundreds of amateur fights. However the K brothers are top tier despite being victim of weak divisions. MMA has yet to really have established amateurs. It will get deeper but right now it is still an easier sport to break into the spotlight. Fighters usually dont even fight amateur and just go pro in MMA; and use their base style as their "background" before training MMA.


There is also the issue of pay in other sports eclipsing boxing. Now, a good athlete has more options and would rather take a career in a sport that does not cause permanent brain damage. There have been numerous cases in the last few years of athletes turning to boxing when their chosen sports career doesn't work out (Michael Grant, anyone).

Here is an interesting quote:



> The NBA 2010-11 salary cap is $56.1 million. The NFL's 2010-11 cap was a similar figure of $58.040 million. But there is no such thing as a typical salary in boxing. The world's most elite fighters make roughly between $1and $20 million per fight. Further down the trough, prospects and contenders can rake in between $50,000 to half a million dollars for an outing. Throw shady management, breach of contract, underpayment lawsuits, and purse withholdings into the mix, and the figure can be halved or brought down to zero. Even a naive teenager, choosing between boxing and basketball, knows that boxing brings a lot of baggage with it.
> 
> The average weight of an NFL-league player is 248 lbs. In the NBA, the mean weight is 221 lbs. These are your potential heavyweights being lured onto the court and onto the field and away from the ring.
> 
> Basketball, Football, and other non-combat sports have refs, just like in boxing, but what they don't have is judges. The Saints never played the New York Giants for four quarters, scored more touchdowns, and then huddled together waiting for the decision, only to find their team robbed by a judge who seemed to have watched an entirely different game. This happens all of the time in boxing, as we all know. Your chances of being screwed, both out of money and deserved acclaim, are higher in boxing than in probably any other sport.


This is more slanted towards the problem in America, but I know it is being felt all over the world. Major league sports are more global than ever. Athletes from all over the world ply their trade in the major leagues in the US and Europe.

Another interesting point to consider:



> If this all weren't enough, Mixed Martial Arts has exploded over the last couple of decades, luring away those kids interested in combat sports rather than basketball or football. Before the rise of MMA, choosing boxing would have been a no-brainer for a young man interested in fighting. Bob Arum claims that because UFC is not a publicly traded company, their supposed pay-per-view buys should be taken with a grain of salt, but one would have to be blind to not see how much traction the sport has gained in just the last few years.


Now, when you add to this the problem with the global collapse of the amateur system, as Emmanuel mentioned, then you have a serious problem. Also factor in that there are four heavyweight belts and sometimes four boring heavyweight campions that cannot capture the publics imagination. The heavyweight champion used to be a household name...now it will just get bewildered looks from those asked. Hey, buddy, can you name the four heavyweight champions (a situation that existed not that long ago)? Even naming one is beyond most people now.

We are now stuck with the uber athlete who can dwarf their opposition and outweigh them by up to 40 pounds (that is the difference between four weight classes). Thats like David Haye fighting Floyd Mayweather. Even though Floyd is a better fighter than David, I am sure that David could use his size advantage to clinch and lean on his opponent all night and muscle out a victory. That is not boxing, it is mugging. The size of a given boxer isn't their fault, but when they are trained more to use that size than to actually box, then there is a problem.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

MrObjective said:


> Wlad's an underrated boxer, he was beating Lennox Lewis before the doctor stoppage. Lewis promptly retired after the win*.


I think you mean Vitali. Lennox was not in shape for that fight and was at his heaviest fighting weight ever (the other heaviest weight was when he fought Rahman the first time and we all know what happened the second time when he came in shape). He was supposed to fight Kirk Johnson and Vitali replaced him. I love that fight (I own a copy of it and was just watching it the other night) and I was cheering for Vitali, as I was tired of Lennox underestimating opponents (Rahman, for example). Though Vitali was ahead in the fight when it was stopped, the tide was turning and Lennox did open up one of the worst cuts I have ever seen. There is no way Vitali could have continued in that fight so you have to give it to Lennox. Had Lennox come in in shape, that fight would have been a non-issue.

Lennox was 38 and had been hinting of retirement long before that fight. He is a smart man who made his money and left before getting hurt.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> I think you mean Vitali. Lennox was not in shape for that fight and was at his heaviest fighting weight ever (the other heaviest weight was when he fought Rahman the first time and we all know what happened the second time when he came in shape). He was supposed to fight Kirk Johnson and Vitali replaced him. I love that fight (I own a copy of it and was just watching it the other night) and I was cheering for Vitali, as I was tired of Lennox underestimating opponents (Rahman, for example). Though Vitali was ahead in the fight when it was stopped, the tide was turning and Lennox did open up one of the worst cuts I have ever seen. There is no way Vitali could have continued in that fight so you have to give it to Lennox. Had Lennox come in in shape, that fight would have been a non-issue.
> 
> Lennox was 38 and had been hinting of retirement long before that fight. He is a smart man who made his money and left before getting hurt.


OH my bad, I thought Wlady was Vitali's nick name or something - talking Heavy weight boxers. Never been a frequent boxing fan, just the big matches.


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## daveh98 (May 26, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> There is also the issue of pay in other sports eclipsing boxing. Now, a good athlete has more options and would rather take a career in a sport that does not cause permanent brain damage. There have been numerous cases in the last few years of athletes turning to boxing when their chosen sports career doesn't work out (Michael Grant, anyone).
> 
> Here is an interesting quote:
> 
> ...


Ya, I mostly agree. However the K brothers and Haye are huge household names in European countries; much akin to big UFC fighters. But we are starting to see more organizations with their own respective HW fighters that no one heard of due to UFC oligopoly. We don't know if Brock truly is number 1 because he doesn't fight the best in other organizations; one can only postulate based on resume/skillset.

The issue about money is the inherent problem to me. UFC/MMA needs to pay more. Okami got the highest pay last live event with 120k. The lowest was 5k. Average pro UFC fighters make 45k. The value proposition combined with the lack of experience most fighters have fighting MMA, to me, show UFC/MMA is still about 20 years away from really having the respect and skill level that shows how deep the sport is.. Will it get there? Sure. Does it kill boxing? No...no yet. Boxing, despite the flawed belt system, is still a very deep and established sport.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

daveh98 said:


> Ya, I mostly agree. However the K brothers and Haye are huge household names in European countries; much akin to big UFC fighters. But we are starting to see more organizations with their own respective HW fighters that no one heard of due to UFC oligopoly. We don't know if Brock truly is number 1 because he doesn't fight the best in other organizations; one can only postulate based on resume/skillset.
> 
> The issue about money is the inherent problem to me. UFC/MMA needs to pay more. Okami got the highest pay last live event with 120k. The lowest was 5k. Average pro UFC fighters make 45k. The value proposition combined with the lack of experience most fighters have fighting MMA, to me, show UFC/MMA is still about 20 years away from really having the respect and skill level that shows how deep the sport is.. Will it get there? Sure. Does it kill boxing? No...no yet. Boxing, despite the flawed belt system, is still a very deep and established sport.


It will be interesting to see what happens to boxing in the next few years. I doubt it will die, but it needs to have a successful heavyweight division to carry it, as boxings popularity has always been related to its marquee division.

I do know how popular the Klits and Haye are in Europe (I haven't miss one of their fights in years), but I found it telling what Emmanuel said about Haye: 

"Right now, the biggest explosion has been David Haye and it’s nothing he did in the ring. Just verbally running his mouth he’s created a lot of excitement and a big buzz about himself."

I have no problem with European fighters, it is just the quality of the fighters themselves. They have gotten better and will hopefully continue to, but I don't see a lot of talent coming from anywhere right now. One could argue that Wlads success has really come on the shoulders of an American coach with Emmanuel drastically changing his approach to fights. The American fighters right now are pretty dreadful and there too there is not much hope in the near future. There are some talented guys, but they are really small heavyweights. I think it may be time to re-structure the divisions. Maybe make cruiser go up to 215.

As for Haye, he is a good fighter, but I think he is a bit small for the Klits. I don't even think he beat Valuev, to be honest. He ran way too much in that fight. Valuev, now there is another story. I like him actually, just seems like a nice guy. I'd be curious to see how a Klit would match up with a man larger than themselves. Hopefully the fight will happen some day.


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