# Fedor and UFC in cahoots



## Kasporelli (Apr 21, 2009)

Fedor Emelianenko’s manager Vadim Finkelstein has posted a message on Twitter this morning (Twitter.com/vfinkelstein) is sure to get people talking:

Negotiations with UFC going on again. I hope you fans will be happy this time)

UFC president Dana White spoke to Sherdog.com last week and stated that he and M-1 had talked “more recently than anyone would think.”

m-1 needs to tap out on the split promotion bullshit and throw Fedor against Lesnar. For the betterment of mankind.raise01:
source- http://www.mmanews.com/ufc/Breaking-News:-Fedor-Negotiating-Again-w-UFC.html


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## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

Very intresting if this is true!


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## Nefilim777 (Jun 24, 2009)

I think it would be funny if M-1 turned around so quickly and left Strikeforce. But in reality, if it is running a good business that's paramount to their concerns they should be doing their best to hook up with the UFC. At the end of the day why the hell is Fedor not fighting the best guys in the world?


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## Thelegend (Nov 2, 2009)

wow i thought M-1 was just using strikeforce to get the ufc contract they wanted and if this is true than M-1 global plays very dirty :angry02:. thats two guys (overeem included) showing almost zero brand loyalty if this one proves true.

-oh well i cant blame these guys from wanting to get paid as much as possible....


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## Kasporelli (Apr 21, 2009)

if this deal doesn't go through, Fedor needs to ditch those **** at M-1. All they want is money for themselves, I don't even think Fedor cares about the dough (looks like he lives in a 2 bedroom apartment, from the documentary) and seems very content with his life.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Lots of really smart comments in this thread. :confused05:



This identical thing happened recently and Fedor and M-1 stated the twitter was false and no negotiations were being conducted.


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## Curly (Aug 20, 2007)

*Fedor is a very good heavy weight who has been made out to be a better fighter than he really is because we have not seen him fight the very best fighters. If he ever fights for the UFC, and I don't think he will, he will be exposed as human. I do not believe Fedor is the best heavy weight in the world, I think he is top five, but not number one. *


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

Curly said:


> *Fedor is a very good heavy weight who has been made out to be a better fighter than he really is because we have not seen him fight the very best fighters. If he ever fights for the UFC, and I don't think he will, he will be exposed as human. I do not believe Fedor is the best heavy weight in the world, I think he is top five, but not number one. *


While I appreciate your enthusiasm and I agree that a lot of fans go over the top with their man-love for Fedor I would add recently to this sentence that you wrote: "*we have not seen him fight the very best fighters"*


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## The_Senator (Jun 5, 2008)

> Fedor is a very good heavy weight who has been made out to be a better fighter than he really is because we have not seen him fight the very best fighters. If he ever fights for the UFC, and I don't think he will, he will be exposed as human. I do not believe Fedor is the best heavy weight in the world, I think he is top five, but not number one.


Yeah, sure, not number 1. Of course, winning PRIDE GP, grabbing the belt in former PREMIER MMA organization, staying undefeated for so many years and beating TOP 10 fighters in the last 3 bouts by either KO or submission does not mean anything whatsoever! Let alone opinions of such respected fighters as Shogun, Anderson Silva, GSP and many more about Fedor being the best... I guess in your mind Lesnar is GOD of HW division because of tapping on UFC 81, beating washed up Herring via decision, old small Couture in the second round, and knocking out Mir. This is ridiculous, vast majority of UFC heaveweights are still green and haven't earned the right to be called the best, otherwise we wouldn't have seen Cro Cop and Nogueira fighting in main and co-main events lately. And Fedor beat them easily. JDS, Carwin and Velasquez are all pretty untested and thus far on the list of possible future superstars of MMA, not present. And Lesnar is still more known as a former wrestler even though it was many years ago in WWF. All of them need years to prove their worth, not a couple of spectacular matches ala Houston Alexander's style on UFC 71 and 75.


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## Johnni G (Dec 2, 2009)

Fight of the year


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## jmacjer (Mar 23, 2009)

Kasporelli said:


> if this deal doesn't go through, Fedor needs to ditch those **** at M-1. All they want is money for themselves, I don't even think Fedor cares about the dough (looks like he lives in a 2 bedroom apartment, from the documentary) and seems very content with his life.


Fedor owns a small part of M-1 so they will never part ways. That apartment was only temporary while he attended a training camp.


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## Curly (Aug 20, 2007)

leifdawg said:


> While I appreciate your enthusiasm and I agree that a lot of fans go over the top with their man-love for Fedor I would add recently to this sentence that you wrote: "*we have not seen him fight the very best fighters"*


Recently would make that sentence more accurate.. although fighting is all about "what have you done lately" so its not absolutely necessary. 

I'm not a Fedor hater, in fact I respect the hell out of the guy, but I do think fans go way over the top with Fedor. 





The_Senator said:


> Yeah, sure, not number 1. Of course, winning PRIDE GP, grabbing the belt in former PREMIER MMA organization, staying undefeated for so many years...


Don't get me wrong, Fedor has mad talent, I love watching him fight, but Pride was a long time ago and since then he hasn't shown me much. He's not fighting the very best fighters. The fighters he's faced lately are nothing to brag about. 

How will he fare against the new breed of heavy weights who are much bigger, stronger and just as athletic? In the UFC you fight who you are told to fight. You don't get to hand pick your opposition. The way I understand it Fedor has always had the "second choice" option in his contracts. When you compare Fedors record to other fighters you need to remember they fight anyone, he does not.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Thelegend said:


> wow i thought M-1 was just using strikeforce to get the ufc contract they wanted and if this is true than M-1 global plays very dirty :angry02:. thats two guys (overeem included) showing almost zero brand loyalty if this one proves true.
> 
> -oh well i cant blame these guys from wanting to get paid as much as possible....


This is exactly the reason the UFC won't do this co-promotion bullshit and they won't let them get away with a non-exclusive contract. 


Also, this deal isn't going to happen. M-1 is going to go in and demand co-promotion and Dana White is going to tell them to go **** themselves. Nothing is ever going to happen until M-1 drops that stupid promotion thing. I'm willing to bet the UFC would allow them to sponsor fighters and even possibly put their logo on the ring/fence posts etc, but they'll never co-promote.


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

Until Fedor actually signs with the UFC, I won't ever again believe or get my hopes up about it again.


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## 420atalon (Sep 13, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> Lots of really smart comments in this thread. :confused05:
> 
> 
> 
> This identical thing happened recently and Fedor and M-1 stated the twitter was false and no negotiations were being conducted.


And M1 never lies :confused05:


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## Woodenhead (Jan 5, 2010)

KryOnicle said:


> Until Fedor actually signs with the UFC, I won't ever again believe or get my hopes up about it again.


Same here. Wait & see, otherwise it's just the same old same old.


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## Holy9 (Oct 20, 2006)

If Fedor leaves Strikeforce before fighting Overeem, Alistair will be running his mouth about Fedor ducking him. Even though Overeem's lack of title defenses is hysterically stupid, he would obviously run his mouth more. But I doubt Fedor will be leaving anytime soon.


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## 6toes (Sep 9, 2007)

KryOnicle said:


> Until Fedor actually signs with the UFC, I won't ever again believe or get my hopes up about it again.


Good call. I'm tired of telling people that Fedor MIGHT be coming to the UFC then feeding them some BS news story from a Twitter account or something. The last big "Fedor signing!?" moment was enough for me to officially remove the idea from my mind...until of course something is officially confirmed.


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## Indestructibl3 (Apr 2, 2009)

KryOnicle said:


> Until Fedor actually signs with the UFC, I won't ever again believe or get my hopes up about it again.


Mhmmmm me neither.


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## Bob Pataki (Jun 16, 2007)

@ EVERYONE WHO DOWNPLAYS FEDOR AS THE BEST IN THE WORLD

What makes you doubt him so much, just because he's not in the UFC fighting the likes of:

Carwin - unproven
Velasquez - unproven
Nog - spare Nog, please 
Mir - seriously? 
JDS - good but still unproven against top competition

Lesnar is the only one who we can really consider a big threat to Fedor, but can we really say he's the best in the world based on his record? I'd say the man who's never been beat in his 10 year career is slightly more worthy of that/ He beat the best Pride had to offer him, and we all know Cro Cop was beast in Pride and two solid wins over Nogueira is clearly something to shout about. Then recently he wiped out Tim Syvia as easy as anyone ever has, and left Arlovski face down on the mat in the first round. The man is clearly the best heavyweight in the history of the sport.

When Brock Lesnar has faced 2-3 more of the current top UFC heavyweights then I think he can be considered as the best in the world. Until then, I'll opt for the one who has the 30-1 record. Lesnar needs to fight Fedor to prove himself as the best, as much if not more than Fedor needs to fight Lesnar.


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## Coosh (Sep 25, 2009)

The reality is 5 of the top 6 ranked HW's are currently in the UFC... Fedor is the only one missing.

Something about that smells funny.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

Kasporelli said:


> if this deal doesn't go through, Fedor needs to ditch those **** at M-1. All they want is money for themselves, I don't even think Fedor cares about the dough (looks like he lives in a 2 bedroom apartment, from the documentary) and seems very content with his life.


That was probably the dacha.


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## TheAxeMurderer (Oct 27, 2009)

Bob Pataki said:


> @ EVERYONE WHO DOWNPLAYS FEDOR AS THE BEST IN THE WORLD
> 
> What makes you doubt him so much, just because he's not in the UFC fighting the likes of:
> 
> ...


Seriously? You can't think of a better argument against mir than that? wow man, you probably should have just left his name off of that list. Mir is more proven than anyone else on that list spare nog, who he has a more decisive victory over than either of fedors wins over him. I wouldnt bet on mir vs fedor, but he's got a better chance than anyone in the ufc bar lesnar, and that fight would not be a walk in the park for fedor.


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## Bob Pataki (Jun 16, 2007)

TheAxeMurderer said:


> Seriously? You can't think of a better argument against mir than that? wow man, you probably should have just left his name off of that list. Mir is more proven than anyone else on that list spare nog, who he has a more decisive victory over than either of fedors wins over him. I wouldnt bet on mir vs fedor, but he's got a better chance than anyone in the ufc bar lesnar, and that fight would not be a walk in the park for fedor.


He's beat Sylvia, Nog with staph and Lesnar when a submission was gifted to him after getting pummelled. I'm not convinced and think, even considering his wins over these opponents, stands very little chance of beating Fedor.

Hand speed, head movement, wrestling, ground game all go in the favour of Fedor. He's better than Mir everywhere. Mir's never been dominant and he just got smashed by Lesnar, is he somehow a fighter that Fedor has to beat to prove he's the best? Absolutely not. 

But don't get me wrong, he's no less of a fighter that Fedor has to beat than the rest except Brock. Mir is more worthy a challenge than the up and commers because he's held the belt a couple of times and has a good win over Nog albeit when Nog was in terrible shape, but the reality is he isn't some elite heavyweight that even compares to Fedor.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

If this is true then, i wonder what is going to happen to Mousasi, if he will want to challenge himself against the best.

IDK maybe Fedor watched the last SF, and saw that it was a joke in comparison....

I mean ive been to better SF shows live then the one this Saturday, it had nothing but early stoppages and showed the lack of dept the whole organization has.

Fedor and the HW's being there most stacked division...

Maybe Fedor fighting in such a small promotion in comparison to UFC, isn't enough for the Russian.....

I've always heard him talking about always wanting to bring Pride back to Russia and he fights for his country and everything.... 

Then join UFC for your country.... Because there isn't more Pride he can accomplish in the HW division right now if he beat Brock and is the Champ in the hardest Organization in the number 1 proving ground UFC


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Bob Pataki said:


> He's beat Sylvia, Nog with staph and Lesnar when a submission was gifted to him after getting pummelled. I'm not convinced and think, even considering his wins over these opponents, stands very little chance of beating Fedor.
> 
> Hand speed, head movement, wrestling, ground game all go in the favour of Fedor. He's better than Mir everywhere. Mir's never been dominant and he just got smashed by Lesnar, is he somehow a fighter that Fedor has to beat to prove he's the best? Absolutely not.
> 
> But don't get me wrong, he's no less of a fighter that Fedor has to beat than the rest except Brock. Mir is more worthy a challenge than the up and commers because he's held the belt a couple of times and has a good win over Nog albeit when Nog was in terrible shape, but the reality is he isn't some elite heavyweight that even compares to Fedor.


First off, Mir DESTROYED Sylvia. Snapped the dude's arm off. Secondly, weren't you just bragging in your last post about how Fedor just beat Sylvia? By the time Fedor beat Sylvia he was far past his prime anyways and Mir beat him when he was still at the top, when Sylvia was on a 16 fight win streak and 3-0 in the UFC, with all three of those wins coming by T/KO and only two of his overall wins coming by decision. By the time Fedor fought him he had amassed 4 losses and was 3-2 in his last 5 with one of those wins being extremely unimpressive against Vera and all 3 of those wins coming by decision. 

If Nog was in terrible shape was not so much the question of that fight, it's the fact that Mir finished him that was impressive. Even if Nog was in bad shape, the dude's got some of the biggest heart and best recovery time in MMA.

The Lesnar win was Lesnar's fault. He was too green and got carried away, the stand-up was deserved. Regardless, he was back on top of Mir within seconds, doing the same exact thing and STILL got subbed. The submission was not a gift but a fact that he kept his head while getting pounded on by what amounts to the closest thing a human can be to Donkey Kong. 


Striking speed Fedor has the advantage by and large, Mir isn't exactly a quick HW, but Head movement and ground game are 100% debatable. I think Mir has an advantage on the ground for the fact that he's a different fighter than Nog (the best BJJ fighter Fedor has ever fought) when he's there. Mir throws constant submissions at a very quick speed and he throws very unorthodox submissions as well. How many times has a fight been finished by kneebar in the past 5 years of the UFC as compared to armbars and the like? What about his "Mir Lock" over Williams? Not to mention that usually whenever Mir gets the chance to get something locked up, it's locked and gone. 

Also, Mir has a significant size advantage that's going to help him on the ground as opposed to Nog who weighed in around 220-230 against Fedor. I honestly don't think Fedor has ever fought a really BIG grappler (wrestlers not withstanding, it's a whole different art than BJJ) and that could be trouble for him, who knows. I'm not saying Mir would beat him, not by a long shot, but I'm saying he has as good of a chance as Lesnar, if not better. Fedor has fought and destroyed big wrestlers with a lot of punching power and Lesnar doesn't exactly have the most technical striking either.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> First off, Mir DESTROYED Sylvia. Snapped the dude's arm off. Secondly, weren't you just bragging in your last post about how Fedor just beat Sylvia? By the time Fedor beat Sylvia he was far past his prime anyways and Mir beat him when he was still at the top, when Sylvia was on a 16 fight win streak and 3-0 in the UFC, with all three of those wins coming by T/KO and only two of his overall wins coming by decision. By the time Fedor fought him he had amassed 4 losses and was 3-2 in his last 5 with one of those wins being extremely unimpressive against Vera and all 3 of those wins coming by decision.
> 
> If Nog was in terrible shape was not so much the question of that fight, it's the fact that Mir finished him that was impressive. Even if Nog was in bad shape, the dude's got some of the biggest heart and best recovery time in MMA.
> 
> ...



You have some good points about Mir's style against Fedor. I think Fedor would need to knock Mir out.

Because i don't know how good Fedors master GnP would do against his Quick Subs....

I can see Mir patiently looking for a arm to be thrown while Fedor is in his guard. But Fedor knowing how Mir is a Master ground guy, i think he would play it smart and land shots to a victory for Fedor.

And with the whole Fedor vs Brock opinion everyone loves to give.

I think its a question of (IS BROCK GOING TO BE ABLE TO CONTROL FEDOR ON THE GROUND......)

IF NOT, its a easy Fedor win, but if he is able to control the wrests and use his mass the same way he did against Mir, and give Fedor problems he has never faced before in Strength, then i see it going Brock GnP.

See just saying that makes me feel like a idiot... I just dont see Brock really being able to land shots over and over like he did Mir.....

Its really is to hard to see Brock controlling Fedor like he did all his other opponents, when you watched Fedor Destroy so many fighters for so long....

But until u see him fight someone with even a similar style as Brocks wrestling and GnP... (other then the fact Fedor fought nothing but Freak Giants)

Fedor has fought big guys, but NONE of those guys have controlled people on the ground like Brock, specially controlling guys like Mir, and Herring like he did... It was FREAKISH....

I see the outcome like this.... Fedor and Brock meet in the mid, Brock not risking a KO, throws his hands to act like he is going to strike and charge the take down, and IF he can land the take down, and not get KO'ed, i see some hammer fists and big punches that would lead to a Fedor arm bar or Fedor holding on and getting back to his feet...

But if Fedor doesn't knock out Brock or put a beating on him early, i see Brock not slowing down, and Fedor getting winded near the later rounds like 4th, with all that energy he spent trying to get back to his feet....

Because i do believe Brock will get him down, countless times with that Football tackle/double leg sweep, countless times if Fedor doesn't daze him or raddle his cage.

Tts just a question if Fedor will knock him out before then, or if he can Sub him....

I dont see Fedor on top of Brock trying to GnP.... I haven't seen ANYONE on Brock Period so i really wouldn't know how that even looks like LOL


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## Bob Pataki (Jun 16, 2007)

TraMaI said:


> First off, Mir DESTROYED Sylvia. Snapped the dude's arm off. Secondly, weren't you just bragging in your last post about how Fedor just beat Sylvia? By the time Fedor beat Sylvia he was far past his prime anyways and Mir beat him when he was still at the top, when Sylvia was on a 16 fight win streak and 3-0 in the UFC, with all three of those wins coming by T/KO and only two of his overall wins coming by decision. By the time Fedor fought him he had amassed 4 losses and was 3-2 in his last 5 with one of those wins being extremely unimpressive against Vera and all 3 of those wins coming by decision.


Did I downplay Mir's win over Sylvia? No, so you're just fabricating an argument on the idea that I'm somehow saying Mir's win over Sylvia meant nothing, which I am not. I mentioned it along with wins over Nog and Lesnar, i.e it was a good win.

I think Mir stands no chance, on the ground or on the feet, simple as that. Fedor being in no danger on the ground with Nog and having Ricardo Arona on him and not being subbed (around the same time of Arona coming 1st on multiple occasions at the ADCC) tells me how good this guy is on the ground.

Your hype about Mir's BJJ, where is it coming from? He has one notable submission win which as you mentioned was over Tim Sylvia, what else is there to show he's some elite BJJ fighter who could sub Fedor? The sub over Lesnar, it good but it was handed to him, it does nothing to make me think Mir is dangerous against Fedor. What about his sub on Williams? We're talking about Fedor Emelienenko, a fancy sub over someone of that caliber means very little in this context. Mir is a good grappler, I'm not doubting that, but not good enough.

Fedor has fought big wrestlers like Lesnar before? He really hasn't.


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## LjStronge (Aug 29, 2007)

Bob I always see you bashing Mir, it is your fav thing to do on this forum.

What will it take for you to give Mir just a little bit of love? lol


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

Bob Pataki said:


> Did I downplay Mir's win over Sylvia? No, so you're just fabricating an argument on the idea that I'm somehow saying Mir's win over Sylvia meant nothing, which I am not. I mentioned it along with wins over Nog and Lesnar, i.e it was a good win.
> 
> I think Mir stands no chance, on the ground or on the feet, simple as that. Fedor being in no danger on the ground with Nog and having Ricardo Arona on him and not being subbed (around the same time of Arona coming 1st on multiple occasions at the ADCC) tells me how good this guy is on the ground.
> 
> ...


Not saying Mir would sub Fedor, but Frank is a lot bigger than Nog and Arona and is also better athlete.

FWIW I hate Mir.


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## Bob Pataki (Jun 16, 2007)

leifdawg said:


> Not saying Mir would sub Fedor, but Frank is a lot bigger than Nog and Arona and is also better athlete.
> 
> FWIW I hate Mir.


He is bigger, but I don't see that as that much of an issue. Size doesn't mean better submissions. Mir isn't exactly super strong considering his size either.

He may be a better athlete but he's not a better grappler than Arona.


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## Ashurum (Sep 23, 2009)

Machida Karate said:


> You have some good points about Mir's style against Fedor. I think Fedor would need to knock Mir out.
> 
> Because i don't know how good Fedors master GnP would do against his Quick Subs....
> 
> ...


I agree with you but just wanted to point out that those "freak giants" were not real athletes like some of the new big guys like Lesnar, Carwin and now Mir.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

Bob Pataki said:


> He is bigger, but I don't see that as that much of an issue. Size doesn't mean better submissions. Mir isn't exactly super strong considering his size either.
> 
> He may be a better athlete but he's not a better grappler than Arona.


If size doesn't matter for submissions than why are there weight divisions in grappling/bjj tournaments?


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## TheAxeMurderer (Oct 27, 2009)

Bob Pataki said:


> He is bigger, but I don't see that as that much of an issue. Size doesn't mean better submissions. Mir isn't exactly super strong considering his size either.
> 
> He may be a better athlete but he's not a better grappler than Arona.


What makes you think he isnt strong for his size? he's only had one fight since he bulked up, and he knocked kongo down with 1 punch and choked him out. I understand that doesnt necessarily mean he's super strong but theres really no proof that suggests he isnt..yet


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

How can anyone use the Arona fight when that was 10 years, 14 submissions and 11 ***** Championships ago?


The Fedor we saw against Arona would get subbed by the Fedor of today.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Ashurum said:


> I agree with you but just wanted to point out that those "freak giants" were not real athletes like some of the new big guys like Lesnar, Carwin and now Mir.


Yeah for sure, i would never compare Choi, Zuluzinho, Tim Syvia, and Brett Rogers to any Lernar, Carwin or Mir.... Just talking about he is good with dealing with there Giant Size


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Machida Karate said:


> Yeah for sure, i would never compare Choi, Zuluzinho, Tim Syvia, and Brett Rogers to any Lernar, Carwin or Mir.... Just talking about he is good with dealing with there Giant Size




How would you not compare Rogers to guys like Carwin? Rogers is like a bigger, more powerful Carwin with a better track record.


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## Bob Pataki (Jun 16, 2007)

TheAxeMurderer said:


> What makes you think he isnt strong for his size? he's only had one fight since he bulked up, and he knocked kongo down with 1 punch and choked him out. I understand that doesnt necessarily mean he's super strong but theres really no proof that suggests he isnt..yet


Fair point, but I very much doubt he contains the strength of Lesnar and Carwin, or even Fedor.



leifdawg said:


> If size doesn't matter for submissions than why are there weight divisions in grappling/bjj tournaments?


What is it with people on here fabricating arguments and putting words into my posts? I didn't say size doesn't matter, I said size doesn't mean better submissions. Very different things, and very much in the context of Fedor.

You don't get someone like Ricardo Arona winning open weight at ADCC because they are the biggest. It's much more down to skill, which Fedor has buckets of as well as strength to match bigger fighters. Size is a factor, but the most crucial factor is technique and I believe Fedor's is too good for Mir, no matter how big Mir is. Fedor is also very strong for his size, which also makes Mir's extra size less of an issue, because he doesn't have Lesnar type strength.


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## Machida Karate (Nov 30, 2009)

Yeah I can see your agrument there, Im not totally convenced with his KO over GG, especially because he was losing before the KO, I just think of him as the guy that was fighting Brock next so i think of him higher then he probably is.... All i know is that he has ended all his fights in the first round so i dont know about him yet to defend him....




khoveraki said:


> How would you not compare Rogers to guys like Carwin? Rogers is like a bigger, more powerful Carwin with a better track record.


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## jmacjer (Mar 23, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> How would you not compare Rogers to guys like Carwin? Rogers is like a bigger, more powerful Carwin with a better track record.


I would agree that Rogers is more than comparable to Carwin. As to who has the better track record and greater strength is debatable.


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## MILFHunter947 (Jan 30, 2010)

leifdawg said:


> If size doesn't matter for submissions than why are there weight divisions in grappling/bjj tournaments?


well it does matter with a very big weight difference (i.e. if you put bj penn against frank mir) but for two people in the same weight division, then it doesnt make a whole lot of a difference


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## DaveDiaz (Jan 31, 2010)

jmacjer said:


> I would agree that Rogers is more than comparable to Carwin. As to who has the better track record and greater strength is debatable.


They are in the same class as of right now but if anything I think you have to put Carwin a notch above Rogers. Carwin has a great wrestleing background as well as decent hands, where as Rogers is just a Striker(if you wanna call it that)


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> How would you not compare Rogers to guys like Carwin? Rogers is like a bigger, more powerful Carwin with a better track record.


LMAO How is Rogers more proven than Carwin? 

They both have enough power to knock anyone out with one punch so let's just call that equal for now as the only way to determine this would to put both guys on one of those pressure sensers. Although as Carwin is a former wrestler I would bet dollars to dimes that he has a lot more functional strength than Rogers.

They both have sloppy technique standing.

Carwin actually has a couple of subs and of course the amateur wrestling background so you gotta give the grappling to Mr. Carwin.

They've both only fought 1 legit fighter and IMO Gonzaga > Arlovski.



MILFHunter947 said:


> well it does matter with a very big weight difference (i.e. if you put bj penn against frank mir) but for two people in the same weight division, then it doesnt make a whole lot of a difference


Arona is a natural LHW, Nog is a small HW and Mir is a big HW.:confused03:


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Bob Pataki said:


> Did I downplay Mir's win over Sylvia? No, so you're just fabricating an argument on the idea that I'm somehow saying Mir's win over Sylvia meant nothing, which I am not. I mentioned it along with wins over Nog and Lesnar, i.e it was a good win.


No, you mentioned it along with fights that you downplayed by saying "Nog had staph" and his Lesnar sub was gifted. Rewatch that fight, that sub was not gifted to him. First, he was switching for an arm when it was stood up, second, th e kneebar was thrown as he was getting pounded on. There was no "gift" there other than Lesnar being nothing more than a big dumb animal at the time.



> I think Mir stands no chance, on the ground or on the feet, simple as that. Fedor being in no danger on the ground with Nog and having Ricardo Arona on him and not being subbed (around the same time of Arona coming 1st on multiple occasions at the ADCC) tells me how good this guy is on the ground.


As it was already said, Mir is much larger than the both of them, Nog by about 40 lbs and Arona is a natural 205er. Also, you're talking Fedor at his peak, which I don't think he's at anymore (Fedor/Rogers would've been over in about 2 seconds at Fedors peak. Roger's would've never put up the fight he did against the best Fedor). Like I said, Fedor has never fought a BIG grappler. He's fought plenty of elite grapplers, but never one as big and strong as Mir.



> Your hype about Mir's BJJ, where is it coming from? He has one notable submission win which as you mentioned was over Tim Sylvia, what else is there to show he's some elite BJJ fighter who could sub Fedor? The sub over Lesnar, it good but it was handed to him, it does nothing to make me think Mir is dangerous against Fedor. What about his sub on Williams? We're talking about Fedor Emelienenko, a fancy sub over someone of that caliber means very little in this context. Mir is a good grappler, I'm not doubting that, but not good enough.


It's not so much the caliber of fighters that he's pulling these subs on, it's how he's doing them and the technique behind them. Sort of how everyone could tell Demian Maia was a beast when he was subbing people like Ryan Jensen and Ed Herman. Mir subs people with speed, viciousness and accuracy like an elite grappler does and is, therefore, an elite grappler in my eyes. I'm not saying Mir WOULD out grapple Fedor by miles by any means, what I'm saying is that the chances of Mir catching Fedor in something slick are anything but slim. [/QUOTE]


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

MILFHunter947 said:


> well it does matter with a very big weight difference (i.e. if you put bj penn against frank mir) but for two people in the same weight division, then it doesnt make a whole lot of a difference


The weight difference between BJ and Fedor would be ~60 lbs if BJ didn't cut (I doubt he would and he'd probably weight in around 170), Fedor weighs 230. Difference between Fedor and Mir is going to be ~50 as Fedor is still going to come in around 30 and Mir is going to cut to 265, probably from about 270.


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## Marbles (Aug 31, 2009)

Looks like Fedor's Management have refuted the comments made on Twitter by somebody pretending to be Vadim Finkelchtein...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/321363-fedor-emelianenkos-manager-nyet-we-dont-use-twitter


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## Coosh (Sep 25, 2009)

Reality check: We will never, ever, ever see Fedor in the UFC.

The sad part about that is not even Overeem and Werdum... it's who comes after them.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

leifdawg said:


> LMAO How is Rogers more proven than Carwin?
> 
> They both have enough power to knock anyone out with one punch so let's just call that equal for now as the only way to determine this would to put both guys on one of those pressure sensers. Although as Carwin is a former wrestler I would bet dollars to dimes that he has a lot more functional strength than Rogers.
> 
> ...


Haha okay, so an UNRANKED Gonzaga is better than a #3 Arlovski? A former UFC HW champion vs a guy who got wrecked by Couture? Man your biases are weird and they affect your views badly.

Not only was Rogers win over Arlovski a way more impressive win than Carwin's win to Gonzaga (who he was losing to up until that one punch), but Rogers then went on to take Fedor to a 2nd round. What did Carwin do? Not fight for almost a year? Correct.


And I like how we just say Rogers has sloppy technique now. Carwin is too stiff and Rogers is learning, but his technique is far from sloppy. And he looked better against Fedor's take-downs than Carwin looked against Gonzaga's take-downs. 


And Carwin hasn't subbed anyone in a long time, on the other hand Rogers shrugged of Fedor's armbar attempt so that puts them pretty damn equal to me in terms of grappling. 

I don't think Carwin would have put up as much of a fight against Fedor as Rogers did... do you?



TraMaI said:


> The weight difference between BJ and Fedor would be ~60 lbs if BJ didn't cut (I doubt he would and he'd probably weight in around 170), Fedor weighs 230. Difference between Fedor and Mir is going to be ~50 as Fedor is still going to come in around 30 and Mir is going to cut to 265, probably from about 270.


But we gotta talk percentages. Obviously the difference between a 100lb person and a 165lb person is going to be huge, but the difference between a 500lb person and a 565lb person is almost negligible. 

And Mir isn't cutting to 265, I'd guarantee you that.


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## Bob Pataki (Jun 16, 2007)

TraMaI said:


> No, you mentioned it along with fights that you downplayed by saying "Nog had staph" and his Lesnar sub was gifted. Rewatch that fight, that sub was not gifted to him. First, he was switching for an arm when it was stood up, second, th e kneebar was thrown as he was getting pounded on. There was no "gift" there other than Lesnar being nothing more than a big dumb animal at the time.


Ok, that's not how I meant it though. Those are his 3 best wins, but I think 2 of them don't count for as much as they could have. I didn't intend to downplay the Sylvia win just by listing it with the others. 

Not many fighters would stand over a grappler and get sweeped into a knee bar, in that sense it was a gift. You like taking things very literally, but you know exactly what I mean. All Lesnar had to do was train more and gain awareness of submissions, and he absolutely buried Mir. I get the point, it was a slick sub, but that does not tell me he will be subbing Fedor, it tells me he's a grappler with submission capabilities, of which have only been demonstrated on one fighter who was experienced, Sylvia. The same Sylvia who Fedor subbed with his forearm in about 30 seconds, we might like to remember.



> As it was already said, Mir is much larger than the both of them, Nog by about 40 lbs and Arona is a natural 205er. Also, you're talking Fedor at his peak, which I don't think he's at anymore (Fedor/Rogers would've been over in about 2 seconds at Fedors peak. Roger's would've never put up the fight he did against the best Fedor). Like I said, Fedor has never fought a BIG grappler. He's fought plenty of elite grapplers, but never one as big and strong as Mir.


I am not sure whether Fedor is past his best or not, he probably is slowing down but he has overcome damage to win against fighters you'd expect him to destroy before. I don't see the Rogers fight as an example of him being past his best, it was a typical Fedor performance from what I can see, maybe apart from taking the GnP like he did. I don't see Mir's size over Nog as something that makes him much more of a threat, not for Fedor. You obviously do, but I don't. That's just opinion, we can sit here all day and debate it but I would bet a lot of money that Frank Mir would never submit Fedor, so nothing you say about how big he is will change my thoughts on that.



> It's not so much the caliber of fighters that he's pulling these subs on, it's how he's doing them and the technique behind them. Sort of how everyone could tell Demian Maia was a beast when he was subbing people like Ryan Jensen and Ed Herman. Mir subs people with speed, viciousness and accuracy like an elite grappler does and is, therefore, an elite grappler in my eyes. I'm not saying Mir WOULD out grapple Fedor by miles by any means, what I'm saying is that the chances of Mir catching Fedor in something slick are anything but slim.


Mir is a good grappler no doubt, but I see a legit ADCC open weight winner as more of a threat than him. You are putting great emphasis on size, where as I'm putting great emphasis on technique and credentials. I take your point about Maia, but we all know his BJJ is superior to Mir's. Fedor has dealt with enough technique and enough bigger fighters than himself for me to be able to confidently predict Mir will not be able to sub him. You can keep telling me Fedor has never faced a grappler of Mir's size, but I'll keep telling you he has faced equal and better grapplers, and also had a career of dealing with all sizes, so the two combine to my conclusion that Mir stands little chance. 

It's all opinion, I didn't try to say Fedor has faced a fighter like Mir, that was never my point. That doesn't stop me thinking he would crush Mir though. I don't think he'd take Mir down and sub him easily necessarily, I just think he could last a full fight without being in too much danger of getting subbed, because he's superior to Mir. I think Fedor would knock him out, that's how I think it would go down.


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## TheAxeMurderer (Oct 27, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> And Mir isn't cutting to 265, I'd guarantee you that.


You could guarantee it, but you'd be wrong. I don't feel like looking for the interview but he already stated he had to cut to 265 for kongo, unless he feels like lying about it which really wouldnt make sense. he came in at 264.5 which looks like he cut to me


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

Unlike Rogers, Carwin as a legit MMA base to go along with massive power.

Also ppl say Carwin being in trouble vs GG is a bad thing.... i see it as a good thing, we saw him get his nose shattered and get taken down and he threw GG off, instantly got up and knocked him out cold WITH A JAB....

I always fear getting behind a fighter you have never seen in trouble. Rogers fought total cans before AA and had a flash KO.... the second he felt some resistence from Fedor he stopped throwing his hands and went on the defensive... he will be in trouble again very soon and he will crumble again. Acting like coming into MMA at his age with no MMA base and just going to be a top guy :confused02: i guess all there is to MMA is being big and powerful then cuz so many ppl here saying Rogers is the truth because of Can domination and a flash KO. I want to see him in trouble again, im betting he gets finished on the ground very soon.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...Up, here we go again. More doubt upon Fedor. *Everytime* he is challenged the man wins. Setbacks. Contract disputes. Getting bounced around from one MMA organization to another. Fighting anybody they put in front of him. All of that mental pressure and Fedor still comes out focused, brings his best and leaves ya stunned. If fans can't admire Fedor for something they aren't a true fan of the sport. His last conquest should be the UFC. If anybody thinks that Fedor is uncapable of winning the UFC HW belt, you're higher than a kite...


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

BrutalKO said:


> ...Up, here we go again. More doubt upon Fedor. *Everytime* he is challenged the man wins. Setbacks. Contract disputes. Getting bounced around from one MMA organization to another. Fighting anybody they put in front of him. All of that mental pressure and Fedor still comes out focused, brings his best and leaves ya stunned. If fans can't admire Fedor for something they aren't a true fan of the sport. His last conquest should be the UFC. If anybody thinks that Fedor is uncapable of winning the UFC HW belt, you're higher than a kite...


Quoted for truth.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

swpthleg said:


> Quoted for truth.


 many fighters and fans have challenged him to dominante the UFC so no, there is no truth in that quote. Everytime means everytime, not most of the time, some of the time, 2x a year, depending on what his owners say etc etc. What a horrible quote tbh EVERYTIME lol

How do you go from the NBA to the euroleagues and get the same respect.... just ask Fedor.


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## swpthleg (Dec 31, 2006)

alizio said:


> many fighters and fans have challenged him to dominante the UFC so no, there is no truth in that quote.


It's my opinion. This is a discussion forum, and we're all entitled to our opinion.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

swpthleg said:


> It's my opinion. This is a discussion forum, and we're all entitled to our opinion.


 no arguement there, but it wasnt quoted for opinion... it was quoted for truth. Truth is many have challenged him and he hasnt answered. He answers any challenge M1 lets him answer would be much closer to the truth IMO

either way, imma stop. ppl always think it means i think Fedor is shit but he is obviously the best HW ever and likely the best now


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## rabakill (Apr 22, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jdA-SaSJOM&feature=email

I hope they are, so much, I still have hope for Fedor in the UFC.


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## IronMan (May 15, 2006)

Kasporelli said:


> Fedor Emelianenko’s manager Vadim Finkelstein has posted a message on Twitter this morning (Twitter.com/vfinkelstein) is sure to get people talking:
> 
> Negotiations with UFC going on again. I hope you fans will be happy this time)
> 
> UFC president Dana White spoke to Sherdog.com last week and stated that he and M-1 had talked “more recently than anyone would think.”


I'm going to say the same thing I said last time: Don't get your hopes up.

The major deal-breakers are still in place and unless Vadim shows some desire to move on the major issues, I don't see much progress being made.

Fedor wants to fight, but he trusts his management (for better or for worse; and it seems like "for worse" for the fans). If the management isn't moving, Fedor isn't coming to the UFC. If the management has moved, then it's possible, and I while it's a possibility, seeing how bored people are with the possibility of Fedor vs. Werdum (and people should be bored by that matchup; I certainly am).

If the management thinks that Fedor need to come to the UFC, if they think the money's right and they're willing to move on the big issues, then they'll make it happen. But (again) don't get your hopes up. This is the fourth time they've entered negotiations (that I can remember off the top of my head). At some point, you're allowed to be cynical.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

IronMan comes into the thread from nowhere, not posting in like 3 months. The hell have you been?


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## JimmyJames (Dec 29, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> Lots of really smart comments in this thread. :confused05:
> 
> 
> 
> *This identical thing happened recently and Fedor and M-1 stated the twitter was false and no negotiations were being conducted.*


*This is the best post in this thread. This is old news and happened less than a month ago. Did everybody forget???*


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Bob Pataki said:


> Ok, that's not how I meant it though. Those are his 3 best wins, but I think 2 of them don't count for as much as they could have. I didn't intend to downplay the Sylvia win just by listing it with the others.
> 
> Not many fighters would stand over a grappler and get sweeped into a knee bar, in that sense it was a gift. You like taking things very literally, but you know exactly what I mean. All Lesnar had to do was train more and gain awareness of submissions, and he absolutely buried Mir. I get the point, it was a slick sub, but that does not tell me he will be subbing Fedor, it tells me he's a grappler with submission capabilities, of which have only been demonstrated on one fighter who was experienced, Sylvia. The same Sylvia who Fedor subbed with his forearm in about 30 seconds, we might like to remember.


The way you were making it sound was as though the ref standing them up was a gift, I didn't take it as Lesnar's inexperience gifting him the sub. And yes, I know Fedor beat Sylvia in 36 seconds, Mir beat him in 50, there isn't a terrible difference between the two.





> I am not sure whether Fedor is past his best or not, he probably is slowing down _*but he has overcome damage to win against fighters you'd expect him to destroy before*_. I don't see the Rogers fight as an example of him being past his best, it was a typical Fedor performance from what I can see, maybe apart from taking the GnP like he did. I don't see Mir's size over Nog as something that makes him much more of a threat, not for Fedor. You obviously do, but I don't. That's just opinion, we can sit here all day and debate it but I would bet a lot of money that Frank Mir would never submit Fedor, so nothing you say about how big he is will change my thoughts on that.


That's my point entirely. Sure, he KO'd Rogers in DEVASTATING fashion, but he did it sloppily. He's no longer the Fedor that seemed to just absolutely demolish top level fighters. The Fedor that made people with some of the highest skill levels in MMA look like chumps who were defenseless against his onslaught. Rodgers is NOT at the top of MMA. I find it hard to even rank him top 10. Fedor had more trouble with him than he did with Nog and Cro Cop, which is ridiculous because both of those men completely outclass Brett in everyway and this was at their PRIME. I'm willing to say that the Fedor fighting today is not the Fedor that fought Cro Cop. I don't know if it's just lack of desire, the feeling he doesn't have competition or what, but he isn't the same.






> Mir is a good grappler no doubt, but I see a legit ADCC open weight winner as more of a threat than him. You are putting great emphasis on size, where as I'm putting great emphasis on technique and credentials. I take your point about Maia, but we all know his BJJ is superior to Mir's. Fedor has dealt with enough technique and enough bigger fighters than himself for me to be able to confidently predict Mir will not be able to sub him. You can keep telling me Fedor has never faced a grappler of Mir's size, but I'll keep telling you he has faced equal and better grapplers, and also had a career of dealing with all sizes, so the two combine to my conclusion that Mir stands little chance.


Just because Mir hasn't won at ADCC doesn't mean he doesn't have grappling skills. His size ISN'T that big of a factor in and of itsself, but it can be when coupled with his skillset and it being something Fedor has never had to face before is what I'm saying. Same with Lesnar. I mean how would Fedor's fight with Randleman went if Randleman was 6'3'' 265+? That's basically what Lesnar is is a gigantic Kevin Randleman as far as style goes. Mir is a type of fighter I don't think Fedor has faced yet, and that's part of the reason why I think he's a big threat to him.



> It's all opinion, I didn't try to say Fedor has faced a fighter like Mir, that was never my point. That doesn't stop me thinking he would crush Mir though. I don't think he'd take Mir down and sub him easily necessarily, I just think he could last a full fight without being in too much danger of getting subbed, because he's superior to Mir. I think Fedor would knock him out, that's how I think it would go down.


That's all fine and good too, because if you remember I never said Mir would win, I just think Mir poses a bigger threat to Fedor than a lot of people seem to think.


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## Ruckus (Oct 2, 2009)

Same old song and dance and I believe it when I see it. Speculating if it does happen, its close to lights out for SF. 

To be the best you have to beat the best, cliche but very true. Why does it seem this topic comes up every month? Why do the likes of Mir and Lesnar make challenges to Fedor? They want to be the best, only natural in their chosen occupation. And in order for that to happen they would need to beat Fedor.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Ruckus, I've said what you just did 1000 times over on this board. #1 is not a stagnant title, it's earned and constantly proven. You don't earn it and rest on your laurels because the organization won't co-promote with a company you own ~10% of. Especially when said organization offers you (reportedly) the biggest contract in MMA history at $5 a fight as a BASE. Not to mention PPV cuts and crazy amounts of brand recognition AND the sponsors they bring with them, let alone the fact they're willing ot let him do ***** still.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> Haha okay, so an UNRANKED Gonzaga is better than a #3 Arlovski? A former UFC HW champion vs a guy who got wrecked by Couture? Man your biases are weird and they affect your views badly.


I can't take HW ranking seriously because they are obviously doctored to increase the aura around Fedor. Who would win in a fight Gonzaga or Arlovski? 



khoveraki said:


> Not only was Rogers win over Arlovski a way more impressive win than Carwin's win to Gonzaga (who he was losing to up until that one punch), but Rogers then went on to take Fedor to a 2nd round. What did Carwin do? Not fight for almost a year? Correct.


IMO, and I think most would agree, recovering from being rocked and mounted to win by KO is far more impressive than flash KO'ing a guy who is known for having a glass chin.




khoveraki said:


> And I like how we just say Rogers has sloppy technique now. Carwin is too stiff and Rogers is learning, but his technique is far from sloppy. And he looked better against Fedor's take-downs than Carwin looked against Gonzaga's take-downs.


There is no other way of describing Rogers' boxing but sloppy and if it wasn't for natural strength he would have close to zero grappling ability. Gonzaga's takedown of Carwin was hardly a takedown. He rocked him standing and then fell on top of him. If that's a takedown than so is what Brock did Mir on that attempted flying knee.




> And Carwin hasn't subbed anyone in a long time, on the other hand Rogers shrugged of Fedor's armbar attempt so that puts them pretty damn equal to me in terms of grappling.


Because he muscled out of ONE sub attempt he is now a better grappler than a national champion wrestler? Put down the pipe.



khoveraki said:


> I don't think Carwin would have put up as much of a fight against Fedor as Rogers did... do you?


Maybe, maybe not. But if Carwin had Fedor in the same spot up against the cage, Fedor would no longer be undefeated.


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## TheGrizzlyBear (Sep 15, 2009)

Personally I don't care what Dana has to do to get Fedor and Mouassi in the UFC. If M-1 needs a personal ballbag washer get him one, hell pay me enough and I'll do it. I really want to see Fedor step up and start fighting some of the top heavyweights in the world, and he isn't going to do that fighting for strikeforce. I don't care what the majority of the Fedor Nut Swingers here think, He hasn't fought a top 10 fighter in a VERY long time, and no Rogers, Arlovski, and Sylvia were not in the top 10 when they fought Fedor.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

TheGrizzlyBear said:


> Personally I don't care what Dana has to do to get Fedor and Mouassi in the UFC. If M-1 needs a personal ballbag washer get him one, hell pay me enough and I'll do it. I really want to see Fedor step up and start fighting some of the top heavyweights in the world, and he isn't going to do that fighting for strikeforce. I don't care what the majority of the Fedor Nut Swingers here think, He hasn't fought a top 10 fighter in a VERY long time, and no Rogers, Arlovski, and Sylvia were not in the top 10 when they fought Fedor.


Why is it all on Dana? I think he is already made quite a few concessions to try and get Fedor into the UFC. When is the Russian-Jewish Mafia going to make a few concessions?


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## TheGrizzlyBear (Sep 15, 2009)

I know its not all on Dana but he is really against the co-promotion with M1 when I don't think its going to hurt the UFC at all... they could do a M1 vs UFC TUF with the best M1 fighters and the best up and comers looking for a big UFC contract..

and M1 needs to realize that the UFC isn't going to be building them some giant stadium in russia anytime soon...or ever...hell I think they would build their own arena in Vegas before the build one in another country.


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## Bob Pataki (Jun 16, 2007)

TraMa1, I see where you're coming from. You're right about Lesnar, he's a whole different beast. Mir I don't think poses anywhere near the same sort of threat. While I would bet money Fedor would beat Mir, I am aware Mir poses a threat, I just see the threat as insignificant given the talent of Fedor.

Maybe I am downplaying Mir's chance a bit too much, but if it went to the ground I'd say Mir was in as much if not more trouble than Fedor, and I am absolutely certain Fedor could last 5 minutes without getting subbed and would get back to his feet before then. I highly doubt Mir could even get Fedor down, so unless he reversed Fedor like Nog-Couture, he isn't going to be on top. I just think the chances are very very slim of Mir's grappling materialising into a sub on Fedor.

You are right that Fedor hasn't faced someone quite like Mir, so I see why you see Mir as such a big threat. But I look at it from the other angle, that Fedor is an elite grappler with a ridiculous ***** and MMA record. So while Mir offers something slightly different, I see the chances of the trend of Fedor being broken are mighty slim. 

Also the point about Randleman is slightly unfair, I think wrestling can be a fighters kryptonite more often than subs. Even if that's not true, the differences between Randleman and Lesnar, and someone like Arona/Nog and Mir are not really comparable. Lesnar is a million miles from Randleman, while Mir isn't all that far from Nog and Arona, in my opinion.

This whole Fedor hasn't faced some like ____ doesn't really do much for me except in the case of Lesnar, because that's at the high end of the spectrum. Fedor had never faced a 6'5 KO artist like Rogers, but he went in a knocked him out. Say what you like about Rogers, I think he's proven he's legit and I expect him to have a good career. Maybe it's Fedor's constant demolishment of supposedly dangerous fighters that has stopped me thinking anyone stands a chance, maybe I'm being hypnotised by Fedor :confused02:

:thumb02:


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

TheGrizzlyBear said:


> I know its not all on Dana but he is really against the co-promotion with M1 when *I don't think its going to hurt the UFC at all.*.. they could do a M1 vs UFC TUF with the best M1 fighters and the best up and comers looking for a big UFC contract..
> 
> and M1 needs to realize that the UFC isn't going to be building them some giant stadium in russia anytime soon...or ever...hell I think they would build their own arena in Vegas before the build one in another country.


You don't think giving up half their profit hurts them?


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## ufcrules (Jan 11, 2007)

The_Senator said:


> beating TOP 10 fighters in the last 3 bouts by either KO or submission


Rogers, Arlovski and Sylvia? Really??


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

leifdawg said:


> I can't take HW ranking seriously because they are obviously doctored to increase the aura around Fedor. Who would win in a fight Gonzaga or Arlovski?


Arlovski would win. His striking is leagues and leagues above Gonzagas. For references, watch Arlovski vs Werdum and Werdum vs Gonzaga I and II.



> IMO, and I think most would agree, recovering from being rocked and mounted to win by KO is far more impressive than flash KO'ing a guy who is known for having a glass chin.


Yeah, losing and catching a flash KO is more impressive than winning and getting a flash KO. :confused05:

Rogers said in the post-fight press conference that it was his team's plan to rush in and capitalize as soon as possible, knowing that Arlovski had a tendency to leave his hands down in the beginning of the fight. 

What was Carwin's plan? Get beat up and then catch a lucky break? 




> There is no other way of describing Rogers' boxing but sloppy and if it wasn't for natural strength he would have close to zero grappling ability. Gonzaga's takedown of Carwin was hardly a takedown. He rocked him standing and then fell on top of him. If that's a takedown than so is what Brock did Mir on that attempted flying knee.


I don't get you guys. Do you think fighters like Rogers DON'T train? If it wasn't for "natural strength" (you're even writing off Rogers strength here like he didn't earn it, classy) he would have gotten subbed? I guess if Fedor didn't have his "natural strength" Nog would have subbed him too?

And that's what happened huh... he rocked him and fell ontop of him?

http://www.mma-core.com/videos/_Gabriel_Gonzaga_vs_Shane_Carwin_UFC_96?vid=10003729&tid=100

Go to 1:00 of the video you can see that isn't what happened at all.



> Maybe, maybe not. But if Carwin had Fedor in the same spot up against the cage, Fedor would no longer be undefeated.



How do you figure that? Rogers is bigger and has proven KO power in both hands and he couldn't finish Fedor there - or even do any real damage.

Why don't you watch some fights, form a better opinion and come back? Rogers is a legit HW, more proven than Carwin att his point, and would be a force in the UFC.

And before everyone starts this "Rogers hasn't even been training full time for that long," BS, remember that Carwin DOESN'T train full time. He's an engineer and he only trains in his spare time. He also hasn't fought in almost a year.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> Arlovski would win. His striking is leagues and leagues above Gonzagas. For references, watch Arlovski vs Werdum and Werdum vs Gonzaga I and II.


So let me get this straight, Carwins subs don't count because they happened a while ago, but these fights do?





khoveraki said:


> Yeah, losing and catching a flash KO is more impressive than winning and getting a flash KO. :confused05:


Before Carwin got the flash KO he managed to knock Gonzaga off the mount (who is supposed to have one of the best top games in MMA).


[


khoveraki said:


> I don't get you guys. Do you think fighters like Rogers DON'T train? If it wasn't for "natural strength" (you're even writing off Rogers strength here like he didn't earn it, classy) he would have gotten subbed? I guess if Fedor didn't have his "natural strength" Nog would have subbed him too?


I'm not trying to discredit Rogers training, I'm just saying that powering out of one sub attempt doesn't make him a better grappler than a guy with 5 submission victories and wrestling national champion.



khoveraki said:


> And that's what happened huh... he rocked him and fell ontop of him?
> 
> http://www.mma-core.com/videos/_Gabriel_Gonzaga_vs_Shane_Carwin_UFC_96?vid=10003729&tid=100
> 
> Go to 1:00 of the video you can see that isn't what happened at all.


I stand corrected, that was a solid takedown, although Carwin did look rocked there.





khoveraki said:


> How do you figure that? Rogers is bigger and has proven KO power in both hands and he couldn't finish Fedor there - or even do any real damage.


1. Rogers got excited and didn't even attempt to hold Fedor in place. I don't think it's a stretch to think that a guy who spent most of his life training to hold people down might have faired a little better. I've said since I saw Fedor fight Coleman that I thought Fedor would have problems in the cage against a good wrestler.




khoveraki said:


> And before everyone starts this "Rogers hasn't even been training full time for that long," BS, remember that Carwin DOESN'T train full time. He's an engineer and he only trains in his spare time. He also hasn't fought in almost a year.


Carwin is full-time now. I believe he started around the time of the Neil Wain fight, but I might be off on the start date.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

As long as you can acknowledge that Rogers is no can on the ground (despite his size not because of it), I'm fine admitting that Carwin has the edge on paper.




> *And you still work as an engineer in addition to being a professional fighter?*
> 
> Yeah, I'm still full-time for the North Weld County Water District. I help develop and work on the hydraulic model, subdivision review, new infrastructure review, stuff like that.
> 
> ...


This interview was just before the Gonzaga fight.

http://www.mmafighting.com/2009/02/25/shane-carwin-full-time-engineer-undefeated-ufc-heavyweight/

"Shane Carwin: Full-Time Engineer, Undefeated UFC Heavyweight."


And I discredited Carwin's subs because they happened to nobodies, not because they happened a while ago. I've subbed a dozen people since this time last week, I guess I'm a better grappler than Rogers?


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

swpthleg said:


> Quoted for truth.


...Thx...swp...


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

alizio said:


> many fighters and fans have challenged him to dominante the UFC so no, there is no truth in that quote. Everytime means everytime, not most of the time, some of the time, 2x a year, depending on what his owners say etc etc. What a horrible quote tbh EVERYTIME lol
> 
> How do you go from the NBA to the euroleagues and get the same respect.... just ask Fedor.


...Dude..."There is no truth in my quote"? First you say that, then you say "I think Fedor is the shit but obviously he is the best HW ever and likely the best now"? You contradicted yourself. If you think he's the best then it shouldn't matter who M-1 or anybody else puts in front of him. Look at it this way- Affliction gave Fedor Sylvia. Crushed him in 36 seconds. Lands a KO punch on Arlovski putting him in la-la land. Barnett screws up, causes more delay. Then all the disputes. Affliction closing shop. Fedor debuts in Strikeforce and fights a big, vicious KO artist, launching his head into the crowd with 1 punch. Point & case, Fedor has met every challenge and won in spectacular fashion. The challengers are still coming but you can only fight 1 guy at a time. If the best fighters say Fedor is the best- then I wonder if it's a matter of them wanting to fight him...


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

I think people are confused about Fedor.



If you're a HW, you need to seek out Fedor to prove yourself. NOT the other way around.


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## drey2k (Jul 9, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> I think people are confused about Fedor.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're a HW, you need to seek out Fedor to prove yourself. NOT the other way around.


QFT


.


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## leifdawg (Jan 1, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> As long as you can acknowledge that Rogers is no can on the ground (despite his size not because of it), I'm fine admitting that Carwin has the edge on paper.


What little grappling Rogers has shown has looked poor, so unless I see some proof I can't agree to that.





> This interview was just before the Gonzaga fight.
> 
> http://www.mmafighting.com/2009/02/25/shane-carwin-full-time-engineer-undefeated-ufc-heavyweight/
> 
> ...


I never said he stopped working as an engineer. I'll see if I can find the article where it talked about training just as much as anyone else at Marquartd's gym while still being a "full-time" employee as an engineer


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

khoveraki said:


> I think people are confused about Fedor.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're a HW, you need to seek out Fedor to prove yourself. NOT the other way around.


 ahhh so GSP, Andy and BJ should all jump ship cuz nobody could be the best unless they followed. Good logic. Once your considered the best, leave the best org and make ppl come to you, obv 1 fighter is bigger and more important then the entire sport.


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## Bob Pataki (Jun 16, 2007)

alizio said:


> ahhh so GSP, Andy and BJ should all jump ship cuz nobody could be the best unless they followed. Good logic. Once your considered the best, leave the best org and make ppl come to you, obv 1 fighter is bigger and more important then the entire sport.


I think the point is when people say Fedor needs to fight UFC heavyweights to be considered number 1, what they should really be saying is UFC heavyweights need to fight Fedor in order to be considered number 1. That doesn't literally mean fighters should leave the UFC though, before you get picky.


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## TraMaI (Dec 10, 2007)

Bob Pataki said:


> TraMa1, I see where you're coming from. You're right about Lesnar, he's a whole different beast.* Mir I don't think poses anywhere near the same sort of threat.* While I would bet money Fedor would beat Mir, I am aware Mir poses a threat, I just see the threat as insignificant given the talent of Fedor.


That's exactly what I'm saying about him. No, he doesn't pose the same threat as Lesnar as the two are completely different fighters, but he poses a different sort of threat. There is not only ONE type of fighter that can defeat Fedor.



> Maybe I am downplaying Mir's chance a bit too much, but if it went to the ground I'd say Mir was in as much if not more trouble than Fedor, and I am absolutely certain Fedor could last 5 minutes without getting subbed and would get back to his feet before then. I highly doubt Mir could even get Fedor down, so unless he reversed Fedor like Nog-Couture, he isn't going to be on top. I just think the chances are very very slim of Mir's grappling materialising into a sub on Fedor.


The thing is is that I think Mir could keep him at bay on the feet. He certainly wouldn't BEAT him on his feet but he COULD survive. Also, Mir does his best work off his back, not on top so I don't think he needs to be on top of Fedor to threaten him at all.



> You are right that Fedor hasn't faced someone quite like Mir, so I see why you see Mir as such a big threat. But I look at it from the other angle, that Fedor is an elite grappler with a ridiculous ***** and MMA record. So while Mir offers something slightly different, I see the chances of the trend of Fedor being broken are mighty slim.


Again, I'm not saying Fedor would lose, I'm just saying that Mir poses by far the greatest threat to him aside from Lesnar. Fedor has fought wrestlers with big power (Carwin and Cain), he's fought big strikers (Kongo?) and he's made a career of embarrassing wrestlers like Couture. 



> Also the point about Randleman is slightly unfair, I think wrestling can be a fighters kryptonite more often than subs. Even if that's not true, the differences between Randleman and Lesnar, and someone like Arona/Nog and Mir are not really comparable. Lesnar is a million miles from Randleman, while Mir isn't all that far from Nog and Arona, in my opinion.


Lesnar really isn't far from Kevin. His striking may be a bit better than Kevin's, but I put it on the same level. They're both extremely athletic, strong and explosive wrestlers. The only real difference between them is size. It's not a knock against any of the fighters, either. Kevin did pretty good against Fedor considering what he did to him would have killed a normal man. 



> This whole Fedor hasn't faced some like ____ doesn't really do much for me except in the case of Lesnar, because that's at the high end of the spectrum. *Fedor had never faced a 6'5 KO artist like Rogers*, but he went in a knocked him out. Say what you like about Rogers, I think he's proven he's legit and I expect him to have a good career. Maybe it's Fedor's constant demolishment of supposedly dangerous fighters that has stopped me thinking anyone stands a chance, maybe I'm being hypnotised by Fedor :confused02:
> 
> :thumb02:


Crocop is 6'2'' and is a FAR better striker than Rogers could ever hope to be. Andre was 6'4'' and was a far better boxer than Rodgers will ever be. Tim was 6'8'' but may not have had that KO power. Rogers is B level in my opinion. His hands are fairly slow, his wrestling is decent as is sub defense and he really brought nothing to the table that Fedor hasn't already wrecked in a previous fight. He HAS faced big strikers before and he's beaten them decisively. He HASN'T faced a HUGE, explosive, athletic wrestler with massive KO power like Lesnar. He HASN'T faced an elite grappler with a pretty big size advantage on him either. It just so happens that Mir and Lesnar fit tightly into both of those categories and are ranked #2 and #3 in the HW division world wide, right behind Fedor. Maybe a lot of people are just lost in the enigma that Fedor is God and unbeatable, but every man is beatable at some point and I see Lesnar or Mir being the ones to do it, honestly.


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## Bob Pataki (Jun 16, 2007)

He has faced smaller strikers with better technical striking than Rogers, true. But he had never faced such a big KO artist, that point still stands. Sylvia had become a decision fighter, and who I think Rogers would wreck. The two are quite different. I see striking as often a more serious threat because of the unpredictability and sometimes wild nature of strikes thrown. Grappling, among the best grapplers is usually far more controlled and predictable.

Fedor has faced smaller grapplers before who have, in my opinion, better grappling than Mir. You're arguing a point not too dissimilar from one you've made yourself. And in case you pull me up on it, I know Rogers isn't as technically good as an Arona or Nog is at grappling, but it's not all about technique in terms of threat, especially with striking.

Also I'm pretty sure I haven't said Mir isn't the biggest threat after Lesnar. I basically said at this stage no one is a serious threat other than Lesnar, including Mir. Out of the rest, Mir probably does pose the most danger too Fedor, but that doesn't mean I think he stands much of a chance.

Seems we're debating over who Fedor has and hasn't faced, but agree on the main point I originally made, to an extent. Anyway, I'm done debating this :thumb02:


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

TraMaI said:


> Lesnar really isn't far from Kevin. His striking may be a bit better than Kevin's, but I put it on the same level. They're both extremely athletic, strong and explosive wrestlers. The only real difference between them is size. It's not a knock against any of the fighters, either. Kevin did pretty good against Fedor considering what he did to him would have killed a normal man.


 Yeah? Lesnar is similiar to a gold medal Olympian who KO'd CroCop? 

Fedor had the flu during that fight but he still subbed him in minutes. Plus they're totally different kind of wrestlers (stylistically, size wise, pretty much polar opposites). 

I don't see how you could use Randleman but NOT Coleman? Coleman is nearly identical to Lesnar, infact Coleman invented the style that Lesnar uses. Sure there's maybe a ~20lb muscle gap but Coleman had a lot more experience. 



> He HASN'T faced a HUGE, explosive, athletic wrestler with massive KO power like Lesnar. He HASN'T faced an elite grappler with a pretty big size advantage on him either. It just so happens that Mir and Lesnar fit tightly into both of those categories and are ranked #2 and #3 in the HW division world wide, right behind Fedor. Maybe a lot of people are just lost in the enigma that Fedor is God and unbeatable, but every man is beatable at some point and I see Lesnar or Mir being the ones to do it, honestly.


Again, Coleman was a massive explosive athletic wrestler. Except wait... Lesnar has "massive KO power?" I guess we should say he's got incredible submissions too? Lesnar has never KO'd anyone.  His striking is extremely inaccurate and I'd be willing to bet he could never touch anywhere near Fedor's chin or temple. 

And let me ask you a serious question... before Mir's win over Kongo, would you feel the same way about Mir's chances against Fedor?


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## Ape City (May 27, 2007)

Curly said:


> *Fedor is a very good heavy weight who has been made out to be a better fighter than he really is because we have not seen him fight the very best fighters. If he ever fights for the UFC, and I don't think he will, he will be exposed as human. I do not believe Fedor is the best heavy weight in the world, I think he is top five, but not number one. *


The point you made is even more valid because you bolded your entire post. 

In the future when you have such earth shattering news might I suggest you *type like this*. Then no one will miss your awsome ideas.


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## Curly (Aug 20, 2007)

Ape City said:


> The point you made is even more valid because you bolded your entire post.
> 
> In the future when you have such earth shattering news might I suggest you *type like this*. Then no one will miss your awsome ideas.



*Good idea, I will. *
:angry07:


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