# If your not fighting in the UFC You can't be top 5



## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Sorry Fedor, but I think we had you a bit overrated for the last couple years. And that goes for anyone else ranked top 5 or better who isn't in the UFC.

Every single MMA fighter has the same dream, they dream of winning a UFC belt. Not a strikeforce belt or bellator or dream belt but a UFC belt. If you are a fighter who thinks they are the best in the world the only way to find out is to compete in the UFC. I don't care if you are Fedor or anyone else. If your not fighting in the UFC than you can't really be ranked among the very best in the world. You can achieve top ten but there's no way to determine if you're top 3 if you’re not continually facing the very best in your weight class.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Gilbert Melendez would like to have a word with you.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

John8204 said:


> Gilbert Melendez would like to have a word with you.


Ok Gill, who have you beat recently and who did they beat?


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Shinya Aoki who has wins over George Sotiropoulos, Caol Uno, and Eddie Alvarez.

Also who's the fifth HW if it isn't Werdum, Overeem, or Fedor?


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

The only time we see #1 and #2 fighters fighting is in the UFC.


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## Bonnar426 (Jul 18, 2006)

Yojimbo said:


> Ok Gill, who have you beat recently and who did they beat?


He beat Shinya Aoki, who in turn has wins over Joachim Hansen and Eddie Alvarez!


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

My statement is doublely true for those fighters who fight primarily in Japanese Promotions. Sorry, but it's true. 

Everybody else who's not in the UFC, is fighting in a bubble. Sure they have tough fights with top guy's one in every six times they compete but you can't crack the top five like that. 
When was the last time Fedor fought the #2 ranked HW?


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Well it's hard to debate what is "doubly true", but I supposes my question is Isn't the question who's in the top five not the top two?

BTW I number of reputable places have Melendez and Werdum as the number 2 in their respective divisions.


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## Lusi (Apr 22, 2007)

And if you don't post on "www.mmaforum.com" you aren't a doubly true top 5 Brazilian Armchair JJ practitioner.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

You don't belong in the top five if you haven't been tested against 1, 2, 3, and 4.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

Yojimbo said:


> You don't belong in the top five if you haven't been tested against 1, 2, 3, and 4.


So Jon Jones, Cain Velasquez, Vitor Belfort and Junior Dos Santos aren't in the top five of their respective divisions?


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

Yojimbo said:


> You don't belong in the top five if you haven't been tested against 1, 2, 3, and 4.


So, if you want to be nr.1, you have to beat 2-5? If the _nr.1_ hasn't beaten 3 and 4, is he still the _nr. 1_? If not then who is?

I'm confused here. :confused05:


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

John8204 said:


> Gilbert Melendez would like to have a word with you.





Rauno™ said:


> So, if you want to be nr.1, you have to beat 2-5? If the _nr.1_ hasn't beaten 3 and 4, is he still the _nr. 1_? If not then who is?
> 
> I'm confused here. :confused05:


No. But you can't be ranked #1 If you haven't beaten any 1-5 fighters.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

who says Melendez is number 1?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Man I want to see the OP's womens rankings? :dunno:


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Now I'm confused. Anyway, my my point remains. What is the root in Strikeforce for a fighter Like Jacare to achieve top 5 Status? I don't think it's possible. And the same I believe is true for the rest of their divisions



Toxic said:


> Man I want to see the OP's womens rankings? :dunno:


I concede that point.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

A lot of the top fighters in the world aren't in the UFC. UFC is just a brand, the same way you can get $60 jeans and $15 jeans. They both last a long ass time and put up well with wear and tear, only differnece, is the $60 jeans has a big brand name connected with them.

Also, make sure you use the "EDIT" button instead of double posting. Thanks.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

John8204 said:


> Gilbert Melendez would like to have a word with you.


...He was the first fighter I thought of. Nice choice. Melendez for certain. Jake Shields and Nick Diaz are others as well. The scrap pack is no joke...


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

John8204 said:


> So Jon Jones, Cain Velasquez, Vitor Belfort and Junior Dos Santos aren't in the top five of their respective divisions?


This is a good question. Sorry I got sidetracked in a semantic tangle. 

I believe all aforementioned fighters are top 5. You're right they haven't fought other top five. The reason I'm still comfortable calling them top five is they are widely agreed to be the top challengers in the most competitive organization. Look at the WW division in the UFC. Those fighters like John Howard or Jake Ellenberger, fighters who I believe are two to three rungs down from the top. They would be #1 badasses in strikeforce. They'd have epic matches with Nick Diaz and that would then falsely inflate their status.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Fedor is undoubtedly top 5. get real. 

Skills are skills, no matter where you fight. The UFC HW division is built up mostly on hype.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

John8204 said:


> So Jon Jones, Cain Velasquez, Vitor Belfort and Junior Dos Santos aren't in the top five of their respective divisions?


...How can Fedor be overrated the last couple of years if he hasn't lost and he's been ranked #1 since March 2003 when he won the Pride HW belt from Big Nog? Fedor is now currently ranked #3 (which is above 5) because Werdum got a lucky submission via Fedor's over-confidence. Your opinion is welcomed but it has no validation and it's incorrect...


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

BrutalKO said:


> ...How can Fedor be overrated the last couple of years if he hasn't lost and he's been ranked #1 since March 2003 when he won the Pride HW belt from Big Nog? Fedor is now currently ranked #3 (which is above 5) because Werdum got a lucky submission via Fedor's over-confidence. Your opinion is welcomed but it has no validation and it's incorrect...


:confused02: wait WHAT wait WHAT when did I trash Fedor?


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

John8204 said:


> :confused02: wait WHAT wait WHAT when did I trash Fedor?


...I KNOW I KNOW. SORRY JOHN IT WAS DIRECTED AT YOJIMBO'S POST...SORRY


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

BrutalKO said:


> ...How can Fedor be overrated the last couple of years if he hasn't lost and he's been ranked #1 since March 2003 when he won the Pride HW belt from Big Nog? Fedor is now currently ranked #3 (which is above 5) because Werdum got a lucky submission via Fedor's over-confidence. Your opinion is welcomed but it has no validation and it's incorrect...


Fedor is perhaps the easiest case to make of a fighter being overrated. Let's look at his last ten fights; Werdum, Rogers, Arlovski, Tim Sylvia, Hong-Man Choi(WTF), Matt Lindland(WTF), Mark Hunt, Mark Coleman. With the exception of Hong-Man all of these opponents were not even at the top of their game in terms rankings. Arlovski had slipped, Werdum had slipped. He hasn't fought relevant fighter since pride. He's been getting UFC sloppy seconds. 
I might believe that Fedor is, the best fighter in the world but i can't ignore the fact that he hasn't proven himself against the present (at the time of the fight) top fighters.


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Yojimbo said:


> Sorry Fedor, but I think we had you a bit overrated for the last couple years. And that goes for anyone else ranked top 5 or better who isn't in the UFC.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^BIGGEST FANBOY EVER


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

If that is the case i cant take Carwin that seriously because he has the Melvin Manhoef syndrome.
(If yall seen Manhoef fight you know what i mean)


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

M.C said:


> A lot of the top fighters in the world aren't in the UFC. UFC is just a brand, the same way you can get $60 jeans and $15 jeans. They both last a long ass time and put up well with wear and tear, only differnece, is the $60 jeans has a big brand name connected with them.
> 
> Also, make sure you use the "EDIT" button instead of double posting. Thanks.


Jean analogy isn't working for me. The UFC is where the best fighter compete. Do you question that they have the highest concentration of top fighters? Yes, a lot of the top fighters in the world aren't in the UFC. I'm not arguing that. The premiss to my argument is, to earn the distinction of top 5 or 3 (where ever you draw the line) you have to be competing against the best.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Yojimbo said:


> Jean analogy isn't working for me. The UFC is where the best fighter compete. Do you question that they have the highest concentration of top fighters? Yes, a lot of the top fighters in the world aren't in the UFC. I'm not arguing that. The premiss to my argument is, to earn the distinction of top 5 or 3 (where ever you draw the line) you have to be competing against the best.


This is true, but in your own words "a lot of top fighters in the world aren't in the UFC". Guys like Fedor have beaten "a lot of top fighters that aren't in the UFC", and as such, has earned the right to be called a very high, top 5.

The UFC has many top fighters, a lot of them top 5, but they don't have ALL the top 5 fighters, just MOST.

You can be top 5 and outside of the UFC.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

M.C said:


> This is true, but in your own words "a lot of top fighters in the world aren't in the UFC". Guys like Fedor have beaten "a lot of top fighters that aren't in the UFC", and as such, has earned the right to be called a very high, top 5.
> 
> The UFC has many top fighters, a lot of them top 5, but they don't have ALL the top 5 fighters, just MOST.
> 
> You can be top 5 and outside of the UFC.


Please name these top fighters that Fedor has faced that aren't or haven't fought in the UFC.


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

Arlovski (Rank 2 at the time when he beat him), Rogers (Rank 6 when he beat him), Sylvia (Rank top 5 when he beat him).

Those were Fedor's most recent ranked wins. They aren't ranked NOW, but when he beat them, they were all ranked high. Thus, his ranking is high. Also, unlike the majority of UFC HW's, he was undefeated for almost a decade before losing, and incase you didn't know, he's generally ranked as the greatest mixed martial artist of all time by most major publications and most fans.


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## thrshr01 (Dec 30, 2007)

Just a little perspective



> *HW*
> 1 Brock Lesnar
> Last Fight: 7/03/2010 [UFC] 5-1-0 799
> 
> ...


from http://www.fightmatrix.com/mma-ranks/


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Yojimbo said:


> Please name these top fighters that Fedor has faced that aren't or haven't fought in the UFC.


Rogers, Schillt, Arona


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

thrshr01 said:


> Just a little perspective
> 
> 
> 
> from http://www.fightmatrix.com/mma-ranks/


BJ Penn shouldnt be in the top 5 anymore. thats 2 straight losses and these rankings online are babying him. Alveraz deserves that spot.


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## John8204 (May 13, 2010)

thrshr01 said:


> Just a little perspective
> 
> 
> 
> from http://www.fightmatrix.com/mma-ranks/


Good list I would have bumped Griffin for Jones, Wanderlei and Jorge for Belfort and Lombard, moved Shields down to WW and put Okami in his place and bumped Hughes out of the WW standings.

I also would have switched JDS for Cain and dropped Aoki to fifth.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah Shields should no longer be ranked at welterweight and Werdum is still highly overrated at number two!:thumbsdown:


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Arlovski and Syilvia formerly of the UFC? Fedor can't beat top fighters that are in the Ufc because he doesn't fight in the UFC. Bret Rogers Managed to make top six and that is the somewhat rare example of a top ten fighter who has never competed in the UFC. And these former Ufc fighters did not leave because they were too dominant. They ultimately left because they determined that they likely could not make it to the top.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

More like they were released from their contracts or their contract ran out and Dana didn't want to sign them again!


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> More like they were released from their contracts or their contract ran out and Dana didn't want to sign them again!


Your Point?


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Yojimbo said:


> Your Point?


Your an idiot that believe everything Dana says.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

That wasn't the point I was trying to make but I was going to say that they were dismissed cause they lost their value!


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

The Amarok said:


> Your an idiot that believe everything Dana says.


That's very kind of you. Arona and Schilt are your examples of top fighter that bolster Fedors record?


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

He fought Arona in RINGS and Schiltz is now the K-1 Champion and because of that match Fedor was on the map!:thumbsup:


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

10 years ago.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well they were what started his rise to king but no they do not define him now!


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> Well they were what started his rise to king but no they do not define him now!


Herein lies my dispute with fedor's long reign at #1. There was A time when he has fighting the best but this hasn't been true since pride dissolved. Since then it would appear that he has been fighting where he can earn top dollar with relatively low risk. Lower than competing in the UFC. I'm not saying he hasn't had great fights with tough opponents but he hasn't challenge himself against the very best and the most dangerous to deserve the prestige he has.


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## Avery (Dec 15, 2009)

beating 30 opponents and not losing is pretty impressive... quit complaining about top 5's and Fedor. why dont you get in the gym and make something of it. This forum is depressing everyone just complains and fights about useless topics and hypothetical situations instead of discussing positive topics.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

John8204 said:


> Shinya Aoki who has wins over George Sotiropoulos, Caol Uno, and Eddie Alvarez.
> 
> Also who's the fifth HW if it isn't Werdum, Overeem, or Fedor?


the win against george is by dq, i dont count that like i dont count jon jones losing to matt hamill by dq


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

UFC_OWNS said:


> the win against george is by dq, i dont count that like i dont count jon jones losing to matt hamill by dq


You do realize that Hamil was getting beat down...

And Sotty was surviving by the skin of his teeth..


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> You do realize that Hamil was getting beat down...
> 
> And Sotty was surviving by the skin of his teeth..


yeh but dq wins are never really legit, have you seen wilson gouveia vs goran reljic or mike russow vs todd duffee? they were both getting owned but reljic and russow came back with mighty ko's out of nowhere, dq is a lame way to win


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## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

John8204 said:


> Shinya Aoki who has wins over George Sotiropoulos, Caol Uno, and Eddie Alvarez.
> 
> Also who's the fifth HW if it isn't Werdum, Overeem, or Fedor?





Bonnar426 said:


> He beat Shinya Aoki, who in turn has wins over Joachim Hansen and Eddie Alvarez!





_RIVAL_ said:


> You do realize that Hamil was getting beat down...
> 
> And Sotty was surviving by the skin of his teeth..


I think Hamil was just biding his time. He thought that he could tire out Jones' arms, legs, and kitchen sink (since that's what he got hit with) to tire out Jones and then make his move.

As Far as HW, I have it

1. Lesnar
2. Velasquez
3. Dos Santos
4. Werdum
5. Fedor/Carwin both guys coming off a submission losses should be interesting to see how they respond.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Arlovsky was not the number 2 fighter when he fought Fraudor. Both Minotauro Noguiera and I believe Couture were over him. Furthermore, rankings don't take into consideration the atrophy of a fighters skills. Big Nog is ranked still 6 or 7 in the world, but would it be impressive if someone beat him? Hell no, he's shot.

Funny someone mentioned Arona, Rogers and Schilt,

A LHW a WC smaller that dominated him and got robbed, and two jokes of an MMA fighter.

Schilt is a kickboxer. He's no more legitimate than Kimbo.

Bum Rogers is perhaps the biggest fraud in the history of the sport, or at least in recent memory. This tire changers resume is founded on wins over a bunch of fat, t-shirt wearing truckers(No, Im not kidding), an undersized C fighter in Abongo Humphrey, whom gave him a fairly tough fight, and a shot to hell and back Arlovsky.

Then of course, he fought the mystical Fraudor and gained rank just on principle. Until Overeem can crushed him.


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## leviticus (May 27, 2007)

Yojimbo said:


> Fedor can't beat top fighters that are in the Ufc because he doesn't fight in the UFC.


I am speechless with your grasp of the obvious.


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## Hammerlock2.0 (Jun 17, 2009)

If you're in the UFC you can't be the #1 in your division.

This statement makes as much sense as this thread's title.


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## tecnotut (Jan 2, 2007)

Jose Aldo is the best in his weight class and he's not in the UFC.


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## IllegalLegKick (Apr 13, 2010)

Fedor isn't what he used to be because for some reason he doesn't want to fight the best anymore. But Fedor has fought the best and beat them all for many years, he was the best fighter in the world and will go down in history as one the greats if not the best Heavyweight of all time. Simple what I'm trying to say is just because he isn't anymore, doesn't mean he never was and no one can take that away from him.


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## LuckyPunch (Aug 31, 2010)

Fedor is the best hands down, hes beaten almost every big name there is out there and now just because hes lost to werdum (because of his overconfidence) he isnt top 5 anymore? :confused03:


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> Arlovsky was not the number 2 fighter when he fought Fraudor. Both Minotauro Noguiera and I believe Couture were over him. Furthermore, rankings don't take into consideration the atrophy of a fighters skills. Big Nog is ranked still 6 or 7 in the world, but would it be impressive if someone beat him? Hell no, he's shot.
> 
> Funny someone mentioned Arona, Rogers and Schilt,
> 
> ...


1. The rules in RINGS were based on damage not control. Fedor clearly did the most damage. And as for weight? Boo Hoo. the weight classes in Japan for HWT are 205 and up if Arona wanted to fight middleweight, he should have dropped to MW
2. HOW IN THE HELL CAN YOU COMPARE THE K-1 WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION TO A STREET FIGHTER?
3. AA was a top tier fighter at the time of his bout with Rogers. Roger kos AA, therefore Rogers was top tier. I dont see how that makes him illegitamate.


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

1 Brock Lesnar - NO
2 Fabricio Werdum - Beaten in less than a minute.
4 Cain Velasquez - NO
5 Junior dos Santos - NO
6 Shane Carwin	- NO
7 Frank Mir - NO
8 Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira - YES
9 Alistair Overeem - NO	
10 Antonio Silva - NO

That's a single fighter, soon to be out of the top 10 as hes pretty much done.

How again does that classify as "Every big name out there?"


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yojimbo said:


> You don't belong in the top five if you haven't been tested against 1, 2, 3, and 4.


you sir are an idiot. I think the UFC has most of the best fighters in the world but you can be ranked in the top 5... hell even top 3 without being in the UFC. But there is no way in hell Werdum is the #2 HW. He got his ass handed to him in the UFC by a few people including JDS. But Melendez and Shields prior to signing onto the UFC were top 5 for sure. Overeem could be top 5 as well as Nick Diaz.


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

TLC said:


> 1 Brock Lesnar - NO
> 2 Fabricio Werdum - Beaten in less than a minute.
> 4 Cain Velasquez - NO
> 5 Junior dos Santos - NO
> ...


If they want Fedor's spot, THEY have to beat Fedor. Its not the other way around. All Fedor has to do is defend his crown from those trying to take. Werdum did, the others didnt even try.
To be the best you gotta beat the best.
This also works in (real) wrestling. 
If the number guy in your division in one season, and the guys you beat graduated (Cro Cop, Nog, Coleman). And the new stream of rising freshman step up (Lesnar, Carwin, JDS, Cain, Rogers, Werdum). The next guess what your ranking gonna be??? NUMBER 1. Why? Because your werent beaten. Thorughout the season, if your go undefeated and only face 2 top guys and the State tourney comes around your going in as the NUMBER 1 seed in your bracket. But if you (the number 1) loses to another top tier guy (number 9 or 10) guess what his spot is... NUMBER 1. Despite the fact the the lower tier guy has had some loses here and there, he beat the head of the pack and now he is the bestand suprpasses the guy(s) the defeated him because THEY didnt beat the number 1 guys. Also, if the number 2 and number 3 guy duke it out for the next spot(Lesnar and Carwin) it works like this, THEIR FIGHTING FOR THE NUMBER 2 SPOT. The new number 1 guy (Werdum) is top dog while the th winner between the number 2 and number 3 guys (Lesnar) is at number 2.


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## tap nap or snap (Jan 28, 2009)

The Amarok said:


> If they want Fedor's spot, THEY have to beat Fedor. Its not the other way around. All Fedor has to do is defend his crown from those trying to take. Werdum did, the others didnt even try.
> To be the best you gotta beat the best.
> This also works in (real) wrestling.
> If the number guy in your division in one season, and the guys you beat graduated (Cro Cop, Nog, Coleman). And the new stream of rising freshman step up (Lesnar, Carwin, JDS, Cain, Rogers, Werdum). The next guess what your ranking gonna be??? NUMBER 1. Why? Because your werent beaten. Thorughout the season, if your go undefeated and only face 2 top guys and the State tourney comes around your going in as the NUMBER 1 seed in your bracket. But if you (the number 1) loses to another top tier guy (number 9 or 10) guess what his spot is... NUMBER 1. Despite the fact the the lower tier guy has had some loses here and there, he beat the head of the pack and now he is the bestand suprpasses the guy(s) the defeated him because THEY didnt beat the number 1 guys. Also, if the number 2 and number 3 guy duke it out for the next spot(Lesnar and Carwin) it works like this, THEIR FIGHTING FOR THE NUMBER 2 SPOT. The new number 1 guy (Werdum) is top dog while the th winner between the number 2 and number 3 guys (Lesnar) is at number 2.



makes sense:thumb02:


MMA needs proper rankings within organisations


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## TLC (Apr 5, 2010)

Wow, that was an (un)impressive rant.

The fact is, this isn't wrestling. You aren't given champion emeritus status in MMA. Even if it was wrestling, the number one ranked wreslter in the NCAA is going to have the luxury of wrestling whoever the hell he feels like, including total cans and guys who aren't in his weight class.

Not to mention that rant really had nothing to do what I was posting, or what I was responding to.

Analogy fail. Rant fail.


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## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Im just getting sick of people doggin Werdum from how he did in the UFC.
Jorge Siatiago is a top five MW and he got ko'ed by Leben.
But do i make fun of him for his past experience? NO. Loses make you stronger and smarter. Too many keyboard warriors love to talk shit about it until they experienced it themselves. 
When i was in high school, I went 40-18 as a juinor and 47-5 as a senoir. My senior year, nobody cared about how I placed as an All-state wrestler or more 18 defeats, they only cared about how dominate I was throughtout the season. Toward the end of the season during regionals, i lost to a lower tier guy to a descion (not making excuses but i was recovering from a twisted ankle and i pinned this guy 4 times in my carreer) and he took my number 3 spot and i dropped to 5th. Was i devestaed? Yes. Did i give up, HELL NO. I came back the next day during the tourney beat him inthe semis and reclaimed my spot. And for the record, i was the number 1 seed going into the tourny. Prior to that i lost to another lower tier guy for the conference title (a guy that i pinned before) and two day before is when i twisted my ankle during practice. And I ALSO defeated him in regionals, so i got my revenge. The top guy in my division was Elohiem Palma, a ******* monster, no one beat him in 2 seasons. Only me and the number 2 guy (Tyler Shatley) were the only ones that went three rounds with the guy. Me and Tyler never wrestled, we knew that if ANYONE beat Palma, they would be considered the best.


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## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

The Amarok said:


> 1. The rules in RINGS were based on damage not control. Fedor clearly did the most damage. And as for weight? Boo Hoo. the weight classes in Japan for HWT are 205 and up if Arona wanted to fight middleweight, he should have dropped to MW
> 2. HOW IN THE HELL CAN YOU COMPARE THE K-1 WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION TO A STREET FIGHTER?
> 3. AA was a top tier fighter at the time of his bout with Rogers. Roger kos AA, therefore Rogers was top tier. I dont see how that makes him illegitamate.


No he didn't. He spent most of round 1 in back mount defense and most of round 2 being mounted or controlled. Landing a jab in the one exchange in the round does not mean you won the round. Fedor got completely outclassed.


Because they both have equal skillsets approriate for MMA.

It makes him illegitimate because rankings, nor skills have never been judged that way. Going by that logic, Houston Alexander should've been top 10 after beating Jardine and Sakara. Which by the way was much more impressive than Bum Rogers' standing TKO over a shot fighter with a glass jaw.

Which is funny, the comparison I mean. Because Bum Rogers is likely just about as good as Houston Alexander...ie..not at all.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

IllegalLegKick said:


> Fedor isn't what he used to be because for some reason he doesn't want to fight the best anymore. But Fedor has fought the best and beat them all for many years, he was the best fighter in the world and will go down in history as one the greats if not the best Heavyweight of all time. Simple what I'm trying to say is just because he isn't anymore, doesn't mean he never was and no one can take that away from him.


My point exactly. And he hasn't been the best since he stopped fighting the best.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Every single MMA fighter has the same dream, they dream of winning a UFC belt. Not a strikeforce belt or bellator or dream belt but a UFC belt. If you are a fighter who thinks they are the best in the world the only way to find out is to compete in the UFC. I don't care if you are Fedor or anyone else. If your not fighting in the UFC than you can't really be ranked among the very best in the world. You can achieve top ten but there's no way to determine if you're top 3 if you’re not continually facing the very best in your weight class.


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## E Lit Er Ate (Aug 28, 2010)

Yojimbo said:


> My point exactly. And he hasn't been the best since he stopped fighting the best.


 This message brought to you in part by,

ZUFFA, founder of the brainwashed UFC fans who believe guys who cant last one round and a guy who runs away when tapped on the face are the best HWs in the world.

That carnival sideshow matchup was the elite of the elite of MMA, right??

Who exactly have those two gorillas beaten that makes you say that?? Frank Mir?? the same guy who lost to Cruz, Freeman and Vera??? 13 and 5 Frank Mir??? the BJJ "striker" with 2 TKOs??

wtf is going on!!! Fedor would in all likely hood make Frank Mir his bitch. Seriously. He would overwhelm him on the feet or the ground. Frank isnt even great off his back like Werdum, who Fedor will beatdown soon, dont worry, even the best get caught.

I dont know if Fedor is number 1, per say. He is WITHOUT A DOUBT!!! top 5. To say otherwise makes me just believe you are a ZUFFA brainwashed MMA fan.

Brock and Carwin i have no doubt wont be top 5s in the next 2 years.

I have faith in well rounded, agile HWs like JDS and Cain. I think those are the true guys to challenge somebody like Fedor. These big guys dont have enough skills, flat out.


----------



## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

Yojimbo said:


> 10 years ago.


...Yo jimbo- let it go brother. You're eating up this thread like a fat kid does cake. It's getting old now. We get it, you're not a Fedor fan. When he comes back later this year to dominate, let me know how yer foot tastes...


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> This message brought to you in part by,
> 
> ZUFFA, founder of the brainwashed UFC fans who believe guys who cant last one round and a guy who runs away when tapped on the face are the best HWs in the world.
> 
> ...


Frank Mir is a good fighter.

Shane and Lesnar are both good fighters.

Hong Man Choi is not, nor is Matt Lindland fighting two weight classes below.

Nor is Tim Sylvia who had just lost 2 of his last three fights.

Nor is Bum Rogers.


----------



## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Roflcopter said:


> Frank Mir is a good fighter.
> 
> Shane and Lesnar are both good fighters.
> 
> ...


Mir is decent (tkoing a sick NOG and sumbitting a C-class Kongo makes you REAL good:confused03
Lesnar and Carwin are just big and they have yet to do anything all that impressive.
People will overexaterrate stories to make fighter more of fighter that they really arent. 
You just got suck into the hype and are too far in. I pity you.


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

Yeah, except being the UFC HW champion...

Kongo is a B class fighter, and Mir was very impressive in that fight, he took him out at his own game then finished him with a sub. 

Mir has been around a long time because hes been fighting in the UFC since like his 4th fight. People forget that hes basically in his physical prime and has a lot of resume boosting ahead of him. First thing first is to take out Slow Cop in the next event. He would've beaten Rodrigo by the way, that fight had less to do with Rodrigo being sick and more to do with age taking away his patented durability.
Hes still a good fighter though but Mir beats him pretty much.

Im not sucked into any hype. If I was I would've gobbled up the Fedor vs Sylvia and Fedor vs Rogers fights like many of the nuthuggers hypnotized by the Fedor mysticism.


----------



## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Sylvia and AA were also UFC heavyweight champ and yet people like you dissregard them because their at a down point in their careers. 
Since Mir is in the same slump, should he be disregarded too?
And has Kongo ever done anything in his MMA career to make him a legit threat for the title? Kongo was fed to Mir because there was nobody else at the time. Cain destroyed Rothwell,Nog battled Coture and JDS beat Cro Cop. Whoelse was there for Mir to fight?


----------



## Roflcopter (Sep 5, 2008)

The Amarok said:


> Sylvia and AA were also UFC heavyweight champ and yet people like you dissregard them because their at a down point in their careers.
> Since Mir is in the same slump, should he be disregarded too?
> And has Kongo ever done anything in his MMA career to make him a legit threat for the title? Kongo was fed to Mir because there was nobody else at the time. Cain destroyed Rothwell,Nog battled Coture and JDS beat Cro Cop. Whoelse was there for Mir to fight?


Mir isn't really in a slump, moreso than he loses two top 5 HWs that have size advantages over him. He beats everyone else in between, but two losses against two guys who just fought for the belt seems to put you in low regard on the internet.

Sylvia isn't really in a slump either, Mir beat him too. He never was that good, he beat a bunch of bad fighters when the division was at its weakest and all the noteworthy guys were in PRIDE. Only thing was, he couldn't even hold on to the belt despite the weaker competition. Sylvia is pretty much irrelevant. Even past prime Rodrigo beat him, along with long lay off old man Couture. The same one Brock beat in two rounds.

Arlvoski is a talented fighter, but hes not slumping either, he's completely shot. His chin is too fragile and he's been KO'd too many times. He'll struggle even to beat C level fights now.

Kongo isn't really a title contender but he's still a B fighter. B fighters usually don't get title shots. He pretty much crushes all the C fighters. Paul Buentello was a good example of what Kongo does to the non top-tier fighters.


----------



## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Roflcopter said:


> Yeah, except being the UFC HW champion...
> 
> Kongo is a B class fighter, and Mir was very impressive in that fight, he took him out at his own game then finished him with a sub.
> 
> ...


Good point. Let me add to it. Those recent Mir KOs (Kongo and Nog) are in my estimation as good, if not better that 90% of the opponents Fedors faced in the last 6 years. I'm not a huge Mir fan but the reality is: If you are at the top of a division in the UFC you will have to face the best in the world. This isn't true in any other organization.


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## Lusi (Apr 22, 2007)

The Amarok said:


> Your an idiot


:thumbsdown:FAIL


----------



## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

Yojimbo said:


> Sorry Fedor, but I think we had you a bit overrated for the last couple years. And that goes for anyone else ranked top 5 or better who isn't in the UFC.
> If you are a fighter who thinks they are the best in the world the only way to find out is to compete in the UFC. I don't care if you are Fedor or anyone else. If your not fighting in the UFC than you can't really be ranked among the very best in the world.


Remember when Pride was bigger and had more talent than UFC?
Obviously not...


----------



## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

E Lit Er Ate said:


> Fedor is undoubtedly top 5. get real.


Lesnar
Cain
Carwin
JDS
Mir
Werdum
Overeem

Sorry, but that is atleast 7 names I can rank above him already, get real yourself.

I think Overeem could potentially beat Mir, Carwin, Cain and JDS, but until he beats atleast Werdum its hard to rank him higher than that. He is pretty much like Fedor before his loss; no impressive wins for a while, and if you look bit further back on his record he has 2 losses against Shogun and Lil Nog + Werdum even though he has like 8 or something win streak right now. 
Not saying that the new improved "Ubereem" can't beat Shogun, Li'l Nog and Werdum right now, but you don't do rankings by using mma math or using "likely outcomes" as a way to back it up, you do them by looking at the fight history (most recent fights being more important), mainly the # of wins against high quality opponents and # of losses (the quality of opponent matters) in the recent fights. 
Basically, there is no way you can rank Fedor top 5 right now without being biased or illogical as hell.


----------



## rockybalboa25 (May 27, 2007)

Vale_Tudo said:


> Remember when Pride was bigger and had more talent than UFC?
> Obviously not...


You do know that PRIDE was 6 years ago right? That is exactly proving why Fedor's recent accomplishments aren't that great. AA and Sylvia were UFC champs when the UFC HW division was weak. That is why Fedor beating them isn't all that impressive. That being said I have him ranked at #5



Diokhan said:


> Lesnar
> Cain
> Carwin
> JDS
> ...


I can understand ranking Velasquez, Lesnar, Dos Santos, and Werdum above him. They are all deserving. I would say that Carwin and him are a toss up for #5. I don't think Mir deserves to be ahead of him. And there is no way in hell Overeem is. Overeem was a less than stellar LHW who juiced his way to HW. He has beaten no top HWs and never faced a grappler. He is an overrated figher, who is barely in the top 10. The closest thing he has to a quality win is Brett Rogers (who is terrible by the way), and Fedor Ko'd him too. There is no logic that can put Overeem ahead of Fedor.


----------



## Harness (Oct 3, 2009)

Am I the only person to see the sarcasm ??


----------



## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Diokhan said:


> Lesnar
> Cain
> Carwin
> JDS
> ...


WOW lol do u work for Sherdog?


----------



## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

Harness said:


> Am I the only person to see the sarcasm ??


Sarcasm. In reference to what?


----------



## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

Ok this is my top rankings for HW

Lesnar
JDS
Cain
Carwin
Fedor
Overeem
Nelson
Werdum
Mir
Antonio Silva


----------



## The Amarok (May 4, 2010)

Mike28 said:


> Ok this is my top rankings for HW
> 
> Lesnar
> JDS
> ...


^^^^im speechless


----------



## Diokhan (Jul 8, 2008)

rockybalboa25 said:


> I can understand ranking Velasquez, Lesnar, Dos Santos, and Werdum above him. They are all deserving. I would say that Carwin and him are a toss up for #5. I don't think Mir deserves to be ahead of him. And there is no way in hell Overeem is. Overeem was a less than stellar LHW who juiced his way to HW. He has beaten no top HWs and never faced a grappler. He is an overrated figher, who is barely in the top 10. The closest thing he has to a quality win is Brett Rogers (who is terrible by the way), and Fedor Ko'd him too. There is no logic that can put Overeem ahead of Fedor.


Fair enough with Overeem, I could see Fedor being ranked above him as although Overeem is on a 8 win streak he has no quality wins on it either. 
I do stand behind rest of the names though and that would still keep Fedor away from top 5.

Carwin: 
-13 fights, 12 wins all by stoppage in round 1. 
-Only loss is against the #1 HW who he nearly managed to beat too. 
-Wins against Mir and Gonzaga are way more impressive than Fedor's wins against Arlovski and Sylvia (The only relevant wins within last 5 years for Fedor). 
-I don't value Nog and Mirko wins too highly as they were 5 and 6 years ago respectively and he couldn't finish either anyway.

Mir: 
-Finished Nog, the current #1 HW and interim belt holder at the time of the match, something no-one had done before.
-Finished Lesnar, sure it was Lesnar's second mma fight,but it was only 2 years ago still unlike Fedor's wins against Nog and Mirko. 
-Wins against Hardonk and Kongo I would value higher than win against Rogers, Arlovski win is more imressive than Kongo or Hardonk win, though. 
-Win against Christison is pretty irrelevant, but still more relevant than Fedor's win against HMC. 
-Mir has win against Sylvia in under 1 minute long match too although it is from about as long time ago as Fedor's win against Nog, so bit irrelevant in a way.
-Losses against #1 and #3 (Carwin's position is arguable) HWs, yet a win against Brock too.
-Basically Fedor has more wins and less losses, but Werdum isn't a top 5 HW and Mir's wins are more impressive than Fedor's and his losses are against opponents of caliber Fedor hasn't even faced since Pride.


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

The Amarok said:


> ^^^^im speechless


Why are you speechless? After the Lesnar loss my HW ranking would look a little different now.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

******* thread SUCKS!!!!


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, even though there is a lack of quality fighters in the UFC that doesn't mean there is a lack of fighters who should be ranked. Well the rankings in the heavyweight division should be very different from what they are right now. Cain basically swapped places with Lesnar on the rankings!:thumbsdown:


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

while this thread is pretty wrong.

I will say it goes for WW and LHW. The UFC has just about all of the top 10 talent at each weight class other than Nick Diaz. Diaz is good enough to be ranked top 10, but he doesn't even fight WW fighters, let alone top ones. 

Also LHW...Mousassi and Mo proved to be frauds. Sure they are good enough to beat a lot of guys, but with that poor cardio they can't compete. Feijao perhaps can get there at some point....but he still isn't fighting any top 5 or even top 10 LHW.

LHW and WW are owned by the UFC, everyone was quick to crown Mousassi as a guy that could be great...and he tanked. Plus 3/4 of his fights are against cans. Diaz needs real competition. We all know he is talented...but hard to put him with Fitch, Alves, Shields, Kos when they fight top 10 talent often and win against most everyone besides GSP.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, I am with you on that point. Lighheavyweight and welterweight are the two most stacked weightclasses in the UFC cause they have most if not all the top ten fighters and probably most of the two twenty fighters. Diaz really should be in the UFC and if Dana White decided to bring him over I'm sure he'd head back!:thumbsup:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

John8204 said:


> Well it's hard to debate what is "doubly true", but I supposes my question is Isn't the question who's in the top five not the top two?
> 
> BTW I number of reputable places have Melendez and Werdum as the number 2 in their respective divisions.


No one who has Werdum over JDS is reputable. His record isn't even that good he lost to Arlovski. Beating a can crusher like Fedor doesn't let you jump a guy who is undefeated in the UFC and liquified two thirds of your brain with an uppercut.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

osmium said:


> No one who has Werdum over JDS is reputable. His record isn't even that good he lost to Arlovski. Beating a can crusher like Fedor doesn't let you jump a guy who is undefeated in the UFC and liquified two thirds of your brain with an uppercut.


I wouldn't say it like this. But yea, he shouldn't be above JDS. JDS in his young career has some very quality finishes...then put him KOing Werdum on top of that and there is no way you can rank Werdum above JDS. 

1. Cain
2. JDS
3. Werdum
4. Fedor
5. whoever ya want out of the rest. They all have their faults. Carwin gasses, Brock doesn't have room for losses since he is so new to the sport, and Overeem hasn't fought anyone at HW.


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## box (Oct 15, 2006)

Fedor
Cain
JDS
Overeem 
Carwin/Brock


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Some weight classes are more effected by the UFC's monopoly than others but generally speaking I agree that there are too few top ten fighters outside of the UFC to sustain a top ranking mostly because most of the top fighters you need to beat to stay on top are in the UFC so a fighter can get stuck at being ranked fifth or third etc because he beat the other three guys that are ranked and outside of the UFC but cant brake into the top ranking simply because they cant fight the top ranked fighters.

Again there is no official MMA ranking system and some of the sites that rank fighters are off their rocker but the real issue is you might get 4 fighters in a weight class that are not in the UFC but in the top ten and they are spread out over three other org's, its hard to get the fights you need in that situation.

The UFC has the highest level of competition in every weight class and after the WEC merge the gap is even bigger between the UFC and everyone else.

Ranking systems have always been about what you have already done not what you could do or who you "should" beat for it to be viable you have to actually beat that guy to take his place in most situations.

Take GSP if SF finds this badass that destroys every fighter he fights and takes the title, as long as nobody else beats GSP he'll never leapfrog him because he cant fight him.



guy incognito said:


> ******* thread SUCKS!!!!


Pot calling the kettle black right there.


----------



## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well there are a few weightclasses where top ten fighters are in other organizations. The best example of that has to be lightweight. Heavyweight is kind've up there but not so much!


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

I wish we had a ranking system here but we dont so I go to playground for that IMO we should have our own rankings but thats another thread.

Out of all the AP and user top ten rankings playground has the most consistent rankings IMO even though I dont necessarily agree with the placement of every fighter.

#1	Frankie Edgar	

20.17%
#2	Gray Maynard	

15.90%
#3	BJ Penn	

12.71%
#4	Gilbert Melendez	

12.56%
#5	Kenny Florian	

9.77%
#6	Shinya Aoki	

8.34%
#7	Eddie Alvarez	

8.12%
#8	George Sotiropoulous	

5.24%
#9	Evan Dunham	

3.79%
#10	Sean Sherk	

3.40%
Honorable mentions: Jim Miller, Benson Henderson, Takanori Gomi

So the top ten has three outside the UFC and how can Melendez move up without fighting a UFC fighter? Assuming the top three dont lose a fight, who can he beat outside the UFC that boosts him to #1, truth is he cant legitimately get there without beating a UFC fighter.

He'll hold at no 4 wile UFC fighters move around him because he's not facing the same level of competition and/or UFC fighters, anyway thats just my opinion.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, I am with you on that point. Lighheavyweight and welterweight are the two most stacked weightclasses in the UFC cause they have most if not all the top ten fighters and probably most of the two twenty fighters. :thumbsup:


Isn't this statement true of LW division also?


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Yojimbo said:


> Isn't this statement true of LW division also?


Not when you have Aoki, Melendez, and Alverez not in the UFC. UFC has the best LWs, but these 3 are top 10 guys and Melendez is top 5.

I think Aoki is overrated though.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> Not when you have Aoki, Melendez, and Alverez not in the UFC. UFC has the best LWs, but these 3 are top 10 guys and Melendez is top 5.
> 
> I think Aoki is overrated though.


Melendez is a badass. Alverez is a badass. But these guy are lonely badasses in their orgs. I think that both would do well in the UFC but there are too many guys that are at or close their level to say with any confidence that they would come and dominate the the top 6-10 LW let alone 1-5 UFC.


----------



## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

I don't think Eddie or Aoki would be title contenders in the UFC. Gilbert is well rounded enough and I don't question his chin or sub defense like with Eddie to where I can see him getting a title shot and maybe winning depending on who is holding the belt at the time.


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## Trix (Dec 15, 2009)

You're not a real MMA fighter until you've had the honor and privelege of kissing Dana White's bulbous, bald, head.

Sorry Fedor, Overeem, you were both _so_ close.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

The really depressing thing about this is that the only division outside of the UFC where there is some depth of quality fighters that would likely be top 5, is Strikefarce's HWs. Unfortunately the HW in Shiteforce are all a bunch a prima donnas that can't agree to fight and have greedy morons for managers. Hopefully this will change in 2011. 
This makes the UFC as a company all the more impressive. They do make the fights happen. 

All the top Strikeforce fighters should take a lesson from Jake Shields. Kick as much ass as you can, as fast as you can and get in the UFC. 
Who the hell would be stoked about signing a fighter that has a several year history of being hard to deal with, "cough" (Fedor).


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Yojimbo said:


> Melendez is a badass. Alverez is a badass. But these guy are lonely badasses in their orgs. I think that both would do well in the UFC but there are too many guys that are at or close their level to say with any confidence that they would come and dominate the the top 6-10 LW let alone 1-5 UFC.


He beat Aoki easily who was widely ranked as a top 3 LW.

He beat Josh Thompson who I think was top 10 at the time.

He beat Clay Guida.

I think his wins are comparable to many top 10 LWs in the UFC and some top 5. What top 5 guy has Florian ever beat to be considered a top 5 LW? Only top 5 win Maynard has is Kenny himself. I don't get it.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> He beat Aoki easily who was widely ranked as a top 3 LW.
> 
> He beat Josh Thompson who I think was top 10 at the time.
> 
> ...


If you look at the last 8 fights you'll see that one of those fighters has been fighting a much higher percentage of top-5 and top-10 fighters.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Yojimbo said:


> If you look at the last 8 fights you'll see that one of those fighters has been fighting a much higher percentage of top-5 and top-10 fighters.


I don't see any top 5 wins for Kenny....yet he was ranked there by many people. Something you said can't happen unless you beat top 5 guys.


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## dutch sauce (Sep 24, 2006)

this thread is gettin juicy, and the guy who made it is pretty much jus saying the exact same thing over and over


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

This is the dumbest thread ever...its sad when people have tunnel vision with the ufc and ignore the rest of the mma world. People forget fighters are fighters no matter where they fight. Look at history Ufc vs pride tell me the ufc had better talent?


----------



## hellholming (Jun 13, 2009)

"you're".


----------



## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

marcthegame said:


> This is the dumbest thread ever...its sad when people have tunnel vision with the ufc and ignore the rest of the mma world. People forget fighters are fighters no matter where they fight. Look at history Ufc vs pride tell me the ufc had better talent?


I don't think anyone can make an argument for the 205+ of the Pride fighters before the era -- Rampage, Shogun and Fedor, Big Nog, Cro Cop. But this isn't 5 years ago.

MMA has evolved, and the big boy talent pool is well in favor of the UFC. The overwhelming majority of the best fighters are in the UFC, outside of like Nick Diaz and Overeem, no one is at the caliber of the UFC top 5s - except perhaps some unknown BWs. 

The only thing I see is Overeem _might _possibly the best heavyweight in the world, but nowhere to prove it...so that's that.

Fedor lost my respect by padding his record with cans, ducking Overeem for years, so that's him. Now he's fighting Antonio Silva - ridiculously overrated compared to the UFC top 5, the striker that got outstruck by Werdum.


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## marcthegame (Mar 28, 2009)

MrObjective said:


> I don't think anyone can make an argument for the 205+ of the Pride fighters before the era -- Rampage, Shogun and Fedor, Big Nog. But this isn't 5 years ago, MMA has evolved. The overwhelming majority of the best fighters are in the UFC, outside of like Nick Diaz and Overeem, no one is at the caliber of the UFC top 5s.
> 
> Fedor lost my respect by padding his record with cans, ducking Overeem for years, so that's him. Now he's fighting Antonio Silva - ridiculously overrated compared to the UFC top 5, the striker that got outstruck by Werdum.


I don't know really, a year ago fedor got heat for not fighting lesnar as lesnar was consider the best Hw in the world. Fast forward a year later lesnar is a bum. Its the brand, what is really wrong with bigfoot silva? If he was in the ufc he probably would get some respect. Bottom line he is a really good fighter. Plus the ufc top 5 who is the best cain and junior can u really say overall there better than fedor?

Plus Fedor nvm what he did with overeem....fedor has laid down the challenge, Plus fedor don;t duck anybody. He will fight anybody as long as m1 is happy. Like the ufc, fedor is a brand, its unfair to judge him when he is doing what is best for his brand. Fedor will fight overeem in 2011 book it.


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## MrObjective (May 22, 2010)

marcthegame said:


> I don't know really, a year ago fedor got heat for not fighting lesnar as lesnar was consider the best Hw in the world. Fast forward a year later lesnar is a bum. Its the brand, what is really wrong with bigfoot silva? If he was in the ufc he probably would get some respect. Bottom line he is a really good fighter. Plus the ufc top 5 who is the best cain and junior can u really say overall there better than fedor?
> 
> Plus Fedor nvm what he did with overeem....fedor has laid down the challenge, Plus fedor don;t duck anybody. He will fight anybody as long as m1 is happy. Like the ufc, fedor is a brand, its unfair to judge him when he is doing what is best for his brand. Fedor will fight overeem in 2011 book it.


I don't think Lesnar is a bum, he's just RAW. Despite him being the elder, Cain is just a more well rounded, with more training, more fight experience. 

Brock was out of any sort of competition for a long time and he jumped right in to MMA. What did he do against Cain impose his strength on him and get him in a clinch. He took him down Cain got back up. Then all he had left was to strike, Cain rocked and destroyed him. He's not the best, but he's still among the best, and ya he's still very raw - he has upside in to developing in to a well-rounded MMA fighter. I think odds would favor him against anyone outside of the top 5 HWs in all promotions.


----------



## Chewy (Oct 12, 2009)

Alvarez>Melendez


----------



## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

lol.

Carwin, Lesnar, Mir, Roy, and Schaub > Fedor, Overeem, and Werdum?

Strikeforce doesn't have a single top ten Light Heavyweight, I'm fully confident, the top 12/13 Light Heavyweights in the UFC would beat Feijao down.

Anderson is clearly number one, but I think with skill sets taken into place, Jacare could VERY easily be the number 2 guy in the UFC. 

Diaz isn't top ten, Daley is though.

Melendez is Number 2, but I think he could beat Edgar pretty easily. I'd have Alvarez and Aoki in my top ten, but I think Aoki would do awful in the UFC.


----------



## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

I'm pretty confident Gegard would beat guys like Forrest and Franklin.


----------



## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

Hmmm i think id have to argue with you with LW to LHW yeah but HW no way. UFC has massive hype and can hype and bum to be a top 10 guy lol. I mean come on you have carwin ? he has massive 1 shot KO power but thats it not much more then brett rodgers. Im soo glad lesner got his ass handed too him now maybe people take him out off top 5 at least!

Anyway my point been Strikefroce has really got a great roster of HWs people can denie it all their want buts it a fact! Werdum, fedor, the reem, kharitonov and barnett


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

osmium said:


> I'm pretty confident Gegard would beat guys like Forrest and Franklin.


Really? Forrest is a better grappler than Gegard and the Anderson fight aside Forrest has decent stand up. Franklin I am also fairly confident would beat Mousasi. I actually think that would be a good fight but honestly I also think a lot of the wrestlers in the UFC would crush him. Hell I would pick Tito over Mousasi.


----------



## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Toxic said:


> Really? Forrest is a better grappler than Gegard and the Anderson fight aside Forrest has decent stand up. Franklin I am also fairly confident would beat Mousasi. I actually think that would be a good fight but honestly I also think a lot of the wrestlers in the UFC would crush him. Hell I would pick Tito over Mousasi.


I think Gegard rocks him standing before Forrest has the chance to get a takedown and then it is sloppy awful Forrest brawling until he gets TKOed.


----------



## Toroian (Jan 3, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Really? Forrest is a better grappler than Gegard and the Anderson fight aside Forrest has decent stand up. Franklin I am also fairly confident would beat Mousasi. I actually think that would be a good fight but honestly I also think a lot of the wrestlers in the UFC would crush him. Hell I would pick Tito over Mousasi.


HAHA TITO over Mousasi best thing i heard all day cant wait for little Nog to KO TITO!


----------



## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

marcthegame said:


> This is the dumbest thread ever...its sad when people have tunnel vision with the ufc and ignore the rest of the mma world. People forget fighters are fighters no matter where they fight. Look at history Ufc vs pride tell me the ufc had better talent?


Congratulations, you have missed the entire point of this thread. Yes the brand by itself makes no difference. However, all these other orgs either don't have the depth to give the top fighters appropriate challenges or can't get their shit together to make fights happen.


----------



## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

EliteUndisputed said:


> lol.
> 
> Carwin, Lesnar, Mir, Roy, and Schaub > Fedor, Overeem, and Werdum?
> 
> ...


Feijao would beat forrest,franklin noguira and bader. I would like to see him fight against the rest.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

Forrest? Very doubtful. Despite the fact he was clowned by Anderson Silva, this is a guy who took shots from Rampage and has vicious leg kicks. Feijao is no Anderson, even if he is his protege.

Franklin? I'd give him the best shot of beating Rich even then, doubtful.

Bader? wrestlefucked for fifteen minutes.

Nogueria? He wouldn't fight Nogueria anyway, but Nog would KO him, this is a guy who lost to Mike Kyle and all of a sudden he's a top ten Light Heavyweight? He doesn't have a single credible win to his name outside of King Mo who is a one demensional wrestler. Once Hendo finishes him off, we'll never see Feijao ever come close to relevance again.


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

EliteUndisputed said:


> Forrest? Very doubtful. Despite the fact he was clowned by Anderson Silva, this is a guy who took shots from Rampage and has vicious leg kicks. Feijao is no Anderson, even if he is his protege.
> 
> Franklin? I'd give him the best shot of beating Rich even then, doubtful.
> 
> ...


Feijao is a far Superior striker then forrest and forrest would not be able to out grapple feijao either, the same with franklin.

bader is as one dimensional as Mo except Mo is a better wrestler.

yes they are teammates and would obviously never fight but there is nothing that nog has as an advantage in against feijao except jui jitsu and the only time the fight would hit the mat would be after feijao KO's him.

GSP lost to matt serra.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

GSP lost to Matt Serra? How is that relevant?

Feijao is a better striker than Forrest? So is Shogun, same with Rampage, a lot of people are better strikers than Forrest. And you think he'd out grapple him? Forrest isn't a joke on the ground. 

Bader is by FAR more well rounded than King Mo, and a much better fighter, what have you seen about Feijao's ground game that would give you the impression he could keep Bader off of him for three rounds?

KO'ing Antwain Britt and King Mo don't make you top ten, when he beats a top ten in the UFC, we'll talk. The UFC has the very best at 205, I just haven't seen anything from him to justify the fact he is an elite Light Heavyweight. He has heavy hands and KO power but he'd get grapple fucked by Rashads and Baders and out struck by the Shogun's.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

guy incognito said:


> Feijao is a far Superior striker then forrest and forrest would not be able to out grapple feijao either, the same with franklin.
> 
> bader is as one dimensional as Mo except Mo is a better wrestler.
> 
> ...


It was a good post but the GSP loss to Serra holds no relevance whatsoever. Yes, GSP lost to Serra but he destroyed him in the rematch and would destroy him blindfolded. I didn't read the whole discussion though so maybe i misundersood something.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

So if Feijao was in the UFC he would be in the top ten easy?


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

> EliteUndisputed said:
> 
> 
> > GSP lost to Matt Serra? How is that relevant?
> ...


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

How long ago did Feijao loose to Mike Kyle cause that is relavent?


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> How long ago did Feijao loose to Mike Kyle cause that is relavent?


it was a year ago.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

How many fights did Feijao get inbetween that loss and his defeating Mo?


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> How many fights did Feijao get inbetween that loss and his defeating Mo?


three including the MO fight. he also had to cut 18Ibs in 16 hours before the kyle fight and made a mistake by running straight into a right hand by kyle which would stop anyone


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well cutting alot of weight before a fight isn't a good idea. It should always be done overtime. The most that should be cut the day of the weigh-ins should be at about five pounds!


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

guy incognito said:


> three including the MO fight. he also had to cut 18Ibs in 16 hours before the kyle fight and made a mistake by running straight into a right hand by kyle which would stop anyone


Kyle is the only guy I've seen really hurt Antonio Silva at HW with strikes...MAK hits brutally hard..

And BTW Feiao would wreck Forrest and Bader IMO.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

What does MAK stand for?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

kantowrestler said:


> What does MAK stand for?


It's Kyles nickname.. I'd have to think because he hits like a mack truck...


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> Kyle is the only guy I've seen really hurt Antonio Silva at HW with strikes...MAK hits brutally hard..
> 
> And BTW Feiao would wreck Forrest and Bader IMO.


yeah anybody who gets hit flush by kyle is in serious trouble and yes feijao would maul them


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well if Kyle is the only guy to hurt Silva then what did Werdum do?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

kantowrestler said:


> Well if Kyle is the only guy to hurt Silva then what did Werdum do?


Werdum beat Bigfoot.. but when did you see him rock Antonio like Kyle did?


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, you do have a point. Werdum took him down and exchanged with him but never rocked him. It was a pretty close fight though!:thumbsup:


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah, you do have a point. Werdum took him down and exchanged with him but never rocked him. It was a pretty close fight though!:thumbsup:


Yeah we were talking about Kyles power that's why I used Bigfoot as an example..


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Why hasn't Kyle gotten anything in terms of title shots or big matches?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Kyle is not gonna get hyped, guy is one of the most classless dirtbags in the sport. He makes Babalu and Paul Daley look like class acts.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Really? So he was just a fill in dirtbag to fill in for Val Overeem against Silva?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Kyle is not gonna get hyped, guy is one of the most classless dirtbags in the sport. He makes Babalu and Paul Daley look like class acts.


Nobody's hyping him... we're just telling the truth. dude has scary power regardless of his personal transgressions..


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Kyle is not gonna get hyped, guy is one of the most classless dirtbags in the sport. He makes Babalu and Paul Daley look like class acts.


why what did he do? and babalu and daley aren't even that bad.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, Sobral just continued to choke a guy out when ordered to stop. Daley did throw a cheap shot but compared to some other guys that isn't that bad. So please tell me what Kyle did anyways!:confused02:


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

guy incognito said:


> why what did he do? and babalu and daley aren't even that bad.







Guy is a scumbag.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

He was obviously just paying homage to the great Badr Hari.


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## Vale_Tudo (Nov 18, 2007)

Yojimbo said:


> Sorry Fedor, but I think we had you a bit overrated for the last couple years. And that goes for anyone else ranked top 5 or better who isn't in the UFC.


Jose Aldo says you are wrong!
top 5 pound for pound In the world!


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

mike kyle was in sydney for an aussie card this year, and he was pounding on this poor kiwi dude after the bell like the ass he is, but he is underrated


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## Johnni G (Dec 2, 2009)

I see your point, but Fedor and Overeem deserve some credit.


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

EliteUndisputed said:


> lol.
> 
> Carwin, Lesnar, Mir, Roy, and Schaub > Fedor, Overeem, and Werdum?
> 
> ...


Diaz is not top ten? Why do people make statements that are so far outside of rational thought and expect to be taken seriously.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

UFC_OWNS said:


> mike kyle was in sydney for an aussie card this year, and he was pounding on this poor kiwi dude after the bell like the ass he is, but he is underrated


He is a very solid fighter and probably top 3 in SF but do you really want to market a guy like that as your champion or future champion?


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## Terror Kovenant (Nov 16, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Guy is a scumbag.


Wow. This guy should not be licensed to fight. He is the kind of scum that this sport needs to stay away from


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

slapshot said:


> Diaz is not top ten? Why do people make statements that are so far outside of rational thought and expect to be taken seriously.


Who has he beat?

KJ Noons? Cyborg? Žaromskis? Diaz is EASILY the most overrated fighter in MMA. Holding the Strikeforce belt isn't automatic entry into the top ten.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> > you saying feijao lost to mike kyle is just as irrelevant as GSP losing to serra which was the point of it.
> >
> >
> >
> ...


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Yojimbo said:


> Ok Gill, who have you beat recently and who did they beat?


You cant be the best HW until you beat Fedor.............you see how silly i sound well thats what im seeing with your thread.


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

***** de Amigo said:


> You cant be the best HW until you beat Fedor.............you see how silly i sound well thats what im seeing with your thread.


I'm not gonna defend the premise of this thread anymore. I will say is that you have missed the point almost entirely. 
Look at Strikeforce. Look at what their LW champ is doing. He has to campaign really hard to get a credible opponent. Melendez is desperate to fight someone that is relevant and Strikeforce doesn't have an answer. 
If you are top-5 or 10 in the UFC you can be sure you are going to soon get a fight with a style that may expliot your weaknesses. There is almost zero delay between winning a fight and getting the next hardest challenge. 
We've all heard it a million times "styles make fights". The only Org that a fighter can prove that he can overcome any style is the UFC.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

***** de Amigo said:


> You cant be the best HW until you beat Fedor.............you see how silly i sound well thats what im seeing with your thread.


I think somewhat of the point of the thread is based on the fact that the UFC has a vastly superior roster overall than other promotions and despite the fact that companies like SF and Dream are non exclusive contract wise and in theory there fighters could fight the best all over the world because of timing and priority conflicts this isn't what is happening and instead we end up with fights that seem forced as the best available option instead of the best fighter. Its why Overeem fought Rogers, why Diaz is fighting Cyborg. ETC.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, with Fedor's loss to Werdum that statement is no longer a valid statement. Supposedly that statement about Strikeforce and Dream is correct in theory but in reality all the best fight cans. Well the Rogers fight was a stupid match-up and one could argue that Cyborg is a legit contender against Diaz but that's just a matter of opinion!:thumbsdown:


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Cyborg is 5-5 in his last ten has fought once at 170 and is one and 1-1 in his last two outings with SF. I would love to hear how anyone can justify him as a contender.


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## Mike28 (Aug 11, 2010)

I can't. I don't feel he is a deserving title contender either. I would love to see Daley get the shot over Cyborg. Daley has some good wins in the UFC. Much better than the wins Cyborg has.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Cyborg's status as a contender is arguable. I do agree however that Daley should've gotten the title shot over Cyborg. Strikeforce really goofed this one up!


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Yojimbo said:


> I'm not gonna defend the premise of this thread anymore. I will say is that you have missed the point almost entirely.
> Look at Strikeforce. Look at what their LW champ is doing. He has to campaign really hard to get a credible opponent. Melendez is desperate to fight someone that is relevant and Strikeforce doesn't have an answer.
> If you are top-5 or 10 in the UFC you can be sure you are going to soon get a fight with a style that may expliot your weaknesses. There is almost zero delay between winning a fight and getting the next hardest challenge.
> We've all heard it a million times "styles make fights". The only Org that a fighter can prove that he can overcome any style is the UFC.


Say what you will be in my opinion SF has a better HW division , UFC has the best fighters though throughout each division , and is very close to SF HW division but i feel as though Overeem , Fedor , Barnett , Silva , Werdum all have answers to the UFC top 5 and they have experience.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah the premise of this thread is only applicable for a few weightclasses. The reason Gilbert is going for Eddie is because there is no one legit in Strikeforce. Also, I would say that the heavyweight divisions in the UFC and Strikeforce are about even when it comes to talent!:thumbsup:


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## Yojimbo (Oct 25, 2009)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah the premise of this thread is only applicable for a few weightclasses. The reason Gilbert is going for Eddie is because there is no one legit in Strikeforce. Also, I would say that the heavyweight divisions in the UFC and Strikeforce are about even when it comes to talent!:thumbsup:


Wouldn't it be great if we could find out how UFC and Strikeforce stacked up? Sadly not gonna happen. Who's more talented? I couldn't say. Who's more relevant and focused on MMA? The top guys in the UFC HW division. 

Truth is the UFC heavy weight strap is the pinnacle of all MMA, and combat sports in general. That is not to say all the other belts don't mean squat but it's widely known that the most coveted, the hardest to attain and retain is the UFC HW belt.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

The UHC HW division?


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Yeah the premise of this thread is only applicable for a few weightclasses. The reason Gilbert is going for Eddie is because there is no one legit in Strikeforce. Also, I would say that the heavyweight divisions in the UFC and Strikeforce are about even when it comes to talent!:thumbsup:


Noons is legit but Eddie definitely has a lot better wins and would do more for Gilbert's standing in the division. Beerbohm is probably legit too but he hasn't really fought anyone. I'd like to see those two fight each other for a title shot.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

osmium said:


> Noons is legit but Eddie definitely has a lot better wins and would do more for Gilbert's standing in the division. Beerbohm is probably legit too but he hasn't really fought anyone. I'd like to see those two fight each other for a title shot.


I actually am really high on Noons and agree he is a great fighter but unfortunately he has the problem that he has never really fought anybody notable outside Diaz with mixed results. Also really like to see Fancy Pants fight a higher level of competition Vitor Ribeiro is no joke so beating him should set him up to face some top guys. I think Josh Thompson and Gesias Cavalcante would make better opponents for the two at LW as Noons and Fancy need to be facing more established guys not knocking each other out of contention.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> Say what you will be in my opinion SF has a better HW division , UFC has the best fighters though throughout each division , and is very close to SF HW division but i feel as though Overeem , Fedor , Barnett , Silva , Werdum all have answers to the UFC top 5 and they have experience.


One can't stay off roids and has no license in the U.S. 

One almost was finished by a LHW that isn't even top 10.

2 barely even fight. Maybe once a year. 

And Werdum really has nothing against him, but he was KTFO by JDS.

I don't get how that = great division.:confused03:


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

At the end of the day, it's all speculation as to which Heavyweight division is better, the only thing we know for sure is that the UFC's number two is better than Strikeforce's number two.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Toxic said:


> I actually am really high on Noons and agree he is a great fighter but unfortunately he has the problem that he has never really fought anybody notable outside Diaz with mixed results. Also really like to see Fancy Pants fight a higher level of competition Vitor Ribeiro is no joke so beating him should set him up to face some top guys. I think Josh Thompson and Gesias Cavalcante would make better opponents for the two at LW as Noons and Fancy need to be facing more established guys not knocking each other out of contention.


Thomson has looked like crap since his injury his kicks are in slow motion now and I think JZ is done for the same reasons. Fan of both guys but I don't know what beating them even means these days. We'll see how Thomson does against Kawajiri, I think he might get his ass handed to him by the crusher.


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Cyborg is 5-5 in his last ten has fought once at 170 and is one and 1-1 in his last two outings with SF. I would love to hear how anyone can justify him as a contender.


No one is justifying him as a contender , and we all know the UFC Has the best roster overall. SF is a growing comapany in terms of MMA and imo have the best HW's around , but this thread is a joke however , yes you can be top 10 and top 5 outside the UFC , the best well maybe Fedor only simply because of his whole career but at present i believe that you have to be the UFC to be number 1 unless its a HW then its opinion between UFC and SF


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## Sambo de Amigo (Sep 24, 2010)

jonnyg4508 said:


> One can't stay off roids and has no license in the U.S.
> 
> One almost was finished by a LHW that isn't even top 10.
> 
> ...


I can do the same with the UFC DIVISION just picking holes and putting speculation in.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well with websites like Yahoo, you can't be ranked if you are serving a roid suspension. As for unliscenced fighters, aren't there a few Japanese fighters that are ranked top ten that are not liscenced in the US?


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

***** de Amigo said:


> I can do the same with the UFC DIVISION just picking holes and putting speculation in.


Go ahead and try.

Fact is they actually fight more than 40 seconds a year. Champs don't defend once in 3 years. 

Can't dispute that.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

kantowrestler said:


> Well with websites like Yahoo, you can't be ranked if you are serving a roid suspension. As for unliscenced fighters, aren't there a few Japanese fighters that are ranked top ten that are not liscenced in the US?


Yea and they are fighting in Japan.

Barnett is signed to SF and can't even get a license....what good is he to SF? And why is he even counted in this whole mess?

Their champ has defended once in 3 years....why isn't he stripped? Why does he even count? If a UFC champ fought for them once in 3 years I wouldn't count them towards anything.

Oh whoopy! Overeem may fight for SF in 2011. Doesn't that sound pretty ridiculous?


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

kantowrestler said:


> The reason Gilbert is going for Eddie is because there is no one legit in Strikeforce.


SF has sick legit LWs.. He's already defeated Josh... but you got Jorge Masvidal, K.J. Noons, Billy Evangelista, Lyle Beerbohm, Justin Wilcox and a couple of wins put JZ Cavalcante and VItor RIberio right in the mix... 

Gil wants Eddie because Eddie is higher profile with bigger wins.. As far as rankings are concernerd they're a crock for the most part anyway...


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## Chileandude (Jan 17, 2008)

Depends on the Division, for example the thread title applies to WW, MW and LHW pretty well.

WW you Have GSP, Shields, Fitch, Alves, Condit and it's going to be pretty hard to crack that. Especially if you consider that you also have Diego, Thiago, Hughes, Penn, Almeida, Pyle etc. They only person outside the UFC that could have something going for him is Nick Diaz and his level of competition is not top 5 worthy and it won't be.

MW you have Anderson, Sonnen, Okami, Nate, Paul Harris, Maia, Wandy, Bisping, Belcher, Akiyama and more.

Again, who's contending outside the UFC? Jacare, Robbie Lawler?

But if you go to HW or LW things change, HW is very thin everywhere in the world.

LW is stacked everywere in the world, at some point not long ago im sure the rankings looked a bit like this.

1- Penn
2- Aoki
3- Alvarez
4- Melendez
5- Florian

There's enough depth at LW that the champions of the top organizations are bound to be ranked in the top 5.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

EliteUndisputed said:


> Who has he beat?
> 
> KJ Noons? Cyborg? Žaromskis? Diaz is EASILY the most overrated fighter in MMA. Holding the Strikeforce belt isn't automatic entry into the top ten.


He beat Zaromskis right after Marius had destroyed the WW GP with a string of KOs and while he was red hot..

But no Nick has not just beaten Noons and the guys you named..

He's also defeated Gleison Tibau, Chris Lytle, Robbie Lawler, and Josh Neer...


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> He beat Zaromskis right after Marius had destroyed the WW GP with a string of KOs and while he was red hot..
> 
> But no Nick has not just beaten Noons and the guys you named..
> 
> He's also defeated Gleison Tibau, Chris Lytle, Robbie Lawler, and Josh Neer...


None of those guys are top ten, Lytle is a gate keeper in the UFC, Diaz lost to guys like Joe Riggs, Sean Sherk and Diego Sanchez, people are always forgetting that.

And wins over Jason High, Seichi Ikemoto, and Sakurai don't make you top ten.

Diaz isn't top ten, he's only ranked as highly as he is because he holds the Strikeforce belt and no one wants a top ten full of UFC guys, so by holding the Strikeforce belt that is his only justification to a top ten ranking.


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## _RIVAL_ (Mar 7, 2008)

EliteUndisputed said:


> None of those guys are top ten, Lytle is a gate keeper in the UFC, Diaz lost to guys like Joe Riggs, Sean Sherk and Diego Sanchez, people are always forgetting that.
> 
> And wins over Jason High, Seichi Ikemoto, and Sakurai don't make you top ten.
> 
> Diaz isn't top ten, he's only ranked as highly as he is because he holds the Strikeforce belt and no one wants a top ten full of UFC guys, so by holding the Strikeforce belt that is his only justification to a top ten ranking.


lol @ Diaz not being top ten... let me spell one thing out for you...

Diaz lost to Riggs, Sherk and Sanchez when he was 19 and 20 years old. Nick Diaz today is an entirley different animal..

And yeah I didn't even mention High or Sakurai.. but notch them in too wether it helps or hurts your case..

Bottem line is Nick Diaz would wreck alot of your top 10 UFC WWs... 

And yes he is a top 10 world WW fighter.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Diaz is on a great run in terms of numbers of wins, but he would not be Top 10 if he was still fighting for the UFC. He doesn't have the wrestling or submission game to beat GSP, Shields, Fitch, Hughes or Sanchez (probably Ricky Story too); and then he doesn't have the striking to win a striking battle with Penn, Alves, Condit or Kampmann. I also see Dan Hardy out-striking him too. He might be able to beat blown up lightweights, over the hill guys like Shamrock and Sakurai and hugely over-rated fighters like Zaromskis but I don't see his style matching up to the UFC Top 10 WW's. I'd definitely bet on St. Pierre, Penn, Alves, Fitch, Shields, Kampmann, Hughes, Condit, Sanchez and Story to take him out, and would be fairly confident that Dan Hardy could out-strike him and knock him out too. It's only a matter of time until he has to fight the only legitimate contender in SF, Paul Daley, get KTFO and have his hype-train de-railed. He'd get beaten by Mayhem, and he'd get beaten by Daley, which is why he's fighting Cyborg. Nick Diaz is not Top 10 just because he has a plastic Welterweight title effectively handed to him by Strikeforce.


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## EliteUndisputed (Nov 26, 2010)

_RIVAL_ said:


> lol @ Diaz not being top ten... let me spell one thing out for you...
> 
> Diaz lost to Riggs, Sherk and Sanchez when he was 19 and 20 years old. Nick Diaz today is an entirley different animal..
> 
> ...


Like who? Paulo? Kampmann? Story?

Oh, and according to you Diaz was 19, 20 years old when he fought those guys, he was born in 83, the Diego fight took place in 05, and the last two took place in 06. That'd atleast make him 22 years old.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, at the time Riggs, Sherk and Sanchez were at the top of their game. Not to mention Sherk and Sanchez were fighting up a weightclass at the time. I can definately see him beating Paulo, Kampmann, and Story!:thumbsup:


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Kampmann would destroy him it wouldn't even be close.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Are you positive?


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

kantowrestler said:


> Are you positive?


im hiv positive.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

That is not a very good thing to be positive about. Either way I personally don't think Diaz will go to the UFC. Not only is his brother there in the same weightclass, but so is his other stable mate Jake Shields!


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Danm2501 said:


> Diaz is on a great run in terms of numbers of wins, but he would not be Top 10 if he was still fighting for the UFC. He doesn't have the wrestling *or submission game to beat*


Well I got this far and realized you have absolutely no idea what your talking about.




kantowrestler said:


> That is not a very good thing to be positive about. Either way I personally don't think Diaz will go to the UFC. Not only is his brother there in the same weightclass, but so is his other stable mate Jake Shields!


Thought Nate was at WW right now?


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## slapshot (May 4, 2007)

Sorry oops.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Yeah, I was referring to Nate in the UFC at welterweight and Nick in Strikeforce. That is a close knit group and those guys don't want to fight each other. By the way, he does have the submission game to beat guys and remain top 10 in the UFC!:thumbsup:


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

slapshot said:


> Well I got this far and realized you have absolutely no idea what your talking about.


Never said Diaz didn't have a submission game, or that his jiu jitsu sucks, Diaz is a very good black belt under Carlson Gracie, but there's no way I see him submitting St. Pierre, Shields, Fitch, Hughes or Sanchez (took Marcelo Garcia over 10 minutes of straight grappling to submit Diego, and that was 5 years ago, Diaz ain't submitting Sanchez); and then he isn't out-striking Alves, Penn, Kampmann or Condit, nor does he have the grappling to defeat them. He'd be a gatekeeper in the UFC. He'd have close fights with the likes of Dong Hyun Kim, Story, Hardy, Thiago, Almeida and Johnson, but there's no way he'd be in the upper echelon of the WW division.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

First of all he would never fight Shields. He definately couldn't submit Penn and honestly I see it going to other way around if that were to happen. Personally I think he would massacre Daley!:thumbsup:


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Cyborg is 5-5 in his last ten has fought once at 170 and is one and 1-1 in his last two outings with SF. I would love to hear how anyone can justify him as a contender.


there is no one else to fight diaz. woodly is tied up and daley says he won't fight that early.


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

Well he's on a two fight win streak. Woodley would be a more justifiable contender. So would Daley but that won't happen!


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## Guy Incognito (Apr 3, 2010)

Danm2501 said:


> Never said Diaz didn't have a submission game, or that his jiu jitsu sucks, Diaz is a very good black belt under Carlson Gracie, but there's no way I see him submitting St. Pierre, Shields, Fitch, Hughes or Sanchez (took Marcelo Garcia over 10 minutes of straight grappling to submit Diego, and that was 5 years ago, Diaz ain't submitting Sanchez); and then he isn't out-striking Alves, Penn, Kampmann or Condit, nor does he have the grappling to defeat them. He'd be a gatekeeper in the UFC. He'd have close fights with the likes of Dong Hyun Kim, Story, Hardy, Thiago, Almeida and Johnson, but there's no way he'd be in the upper echelon of the WW division.


He'd have no problem subbing hughes and would have no problem striking with condit or hardy


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## kantowrestler (Jun 6, 2009)

The question is could he take on a well rounded fighter?


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