# Velasquez V Carwin



## Brit MMA rulz (Apr 23, 2010)

2 questions 
no 1 Will it happen ?
no 2 Who do you think will win ?


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## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

1) It will happen after Carwin will defeat Lesnar
2) I will bet on Cain in that fight.


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

I don't really see anywhere where Cain is better than Carwin.


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## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

Once Brock gets killed by first round Carwinage, Cain will be killed by first round Carwinage. This cant end any other way


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Biowza said:


> I don't really see anywhere where Cain is better than Carwin.


Yeah, apart from Cain having far better technical striking, a better wrestling pedigree and better cardio I'd have to agree with you.....


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## Biowza (May 22, 2007)

Danm2501 said:


> Yeah, apart from Cain having far better technical striking, a better wrestling pedigree and better cardio I'd have to agree with you.....


What I meant is, in reality...

1) Cain probably won't get Carwin down
2) Even if he DOES get him down, he won't do any damage
3) He won't do any damage standing
4) Better cardio? We don't know that

I just don't see where Cain can win this.


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## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

Biowza said:


> I don't really see anywhere where Cain is better than Carwin.


You are messing up with a fire.. Alizio will smash you..

I say Alizio win by 3rd post via verbal submission.


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## LjStronge (Aug 29, 2007)

Atilak said:


> You are messing up with a fire.. Alizio will smash you..
> 
> I say Alizio win by 3rd post via verbal submission.


This!


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## Baby Jay D. (Apr 25, 2008)

Cain is the better technical fighter in all areas, but Carwin has the size advantage and the KO power advantage. I think this fight does happen down the line but not for a while because imo Lesnar beats Carwin.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Biowza said:


> What I meant is, in reality...
> 
> 1) Cain probably won't get Carwin down
> 2) Even if he DOES get him down, he won't do any damage
> ...


Velasquez has excellent control on the ground, and his G'n'P will be constantly improving, so I think if he was able to get Carwin down, which certainly wouldn't be a huge surprise given Velasquez's wrestling pedigree I think he could do damage.

Gonzaga badly rocked Carwin standing, and he was rocked by Neil Wain too; Cain just KO'd Nogueira and showed excellent technical striking. I wouldn't be so sure that Cain wouldn't do damage standing.

We don't 100% know how good Carwin's cardio is; but the guys down at AKA all talk about how impressive Cain's cardio is, and how his conditioning is up there with Welterweights. Shane Carwin is also 35 years old, so I'd say it's fairly certain that the younger fighter with the reputation for having incredible cardio, would have the better conditioning.

I personally believe Cain is superior to Carwin in every facet of the game, apart from Size and 1 punch KO power. However, Cain does have power in his hands, has good technical striking, a better wrestling pedigree and unmatched cardio in the HW division. I not only see Cain beating Carwin, but Lesnar too; I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.


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## NotDylan (Jul 13, 2009)

I'm really starting to get on the Cain bandwagon and believe that, ability wise, he may actually be the best HW in the division right now. Though, is he good enough to make up for the size difference? Hard to say.


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## Rusko (Feb 4, 2010)

Atilak said:


> You are messing up with a fire.. Alizio will smash you..
> 
> I say Alizio win by 3rd post via verbal submission.


 good one


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Cain almost certainly has better Cardio than Carwin. Can anybody seriously see Carwin swarming all over Kongo as relentlessly as Cain did without being completely knackered? No way. The day I see Carwin go 3 hard rounds is the day I see an elephant run a marathon.

Cain wins this anywhere and everywhere. Hes far to fast for Carwin. Hes also one million times more instinctive than Mir and Gonzaga.

The time will come soon enough. He'll mop up the whole division. The day I see Brown Pride perched above the gold will be a happy day for me.


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## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> Cain almost certainly has better Cardio than Carwin. Can anybody seriously see Carwin swarming all over Kongo as relentlessly as Cain did without being completely knackered? No way. The day I see Carwin go 3 hard rounds is the day I see an elephant run a marathon.
> 
> Cain wins this anywhere and everywhere. Hes far to fast for Carwin. Hes also one million times more instinctive than Mir and Gonzaga.
> 
> The time will come soon enough. He'll mop up the whole division. The day I see Brown Pride perched above the gold will be a happy day for me.


And the day you see a man Shane Carwin cant knock out with one punch, is the day you meet the immovable object.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Soojooko said:


> Cain almost certainly has better Cardio than Carwin. Can anybody seriously see Carwin swarming all over Kongo as relentlessly as Cain did without being completely knackered? No way. The day I see Carwin go 3 hard rounds is the day I see an elephant run a marathon.
> 
> Cain wins this anywhere and everywhere. Hes far to fast for Carwin. Hes also one million times more instinctive than Mir and Gonzaga.
> 
> The time will come soon enough. He'll mop up the whole division. The day I see Brown Pride perched above the gold will be a happy day for me.


Swarming all over Kongo? Swarming, if by swarming you mean taking him down and playing paddy-cake with his face than no. Carwin would have smashed Kongo's nose through the back of his head and called it a night. We have seen Cain go 3 rounds once and frankly he took Kongo down and did nothing. He did not posture up and try and do any real damage what so ever so lets not go praising this great cardio that we have NEVER seen, till he actually does something besides maintain top control on the worst guy in the entire division off his back I won't be impressed with his cardio. All he is proven is has somewhat of a gas tank.


IMO Carwin takes this, Carwin has a great chin and he hits like a brick shit house. Even if everything goes Cain's way your looking at a similar situation to Kongo/Cain except Carwin hits harder and has better wrestling. IMO at some point its inevitable that Carwin catches him.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Cain gives up too much size and strength to beat Carwin. He might be in great shape but he's still pudgy looking. IMO he should try to make 205. Either way though, he wouldn't be able to get Carwin down and if he did he couldn't hold him there. He can be as technical of a striker as he wants but when you have half the punching power of your opponent you're in trouble. Carwin wins by KO in the 1st.


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## Adam365 (Jul 10, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Swarming all over Kongo? Swarming, if by swarming you mean taking him down and playing paddy-cake with his face than no. Carwin would have smashed Kongo's nose through the back of his head and called it a night. We have seen Cain go 3 rounds once and frankly he took Kongo down and did nothing. He did not posture up and try and do any real damage what so ever so lets not go praising this great cardio that we have NEVER seen, till he actually does something besides maintain top control on the worst guy in the entire division off his back I won't be impressed with his cardio. All he is proven is has somewhat of a gas tank.
> 
> 
> IMO Carwin takes this, Carwin has a great chin and he hits like a brick shit house. Even if everything goes Cain's way your looking at a similar situation to Kongo/Cain except Carwin hits harder and has better wrestling. IMO at some point its inevitable that Carwin catches him.


I agree I can't see cain winning against carwin or lesnar they're to big and they have great wrestling too. Cain should fight Mir but I know he's waiting for his title shot.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

Danm2501 said:


> Yeah, apart from Cain having *far better technical striking*, a better wrestling pedigree and better cardio I'd have to agree with you.....


Ehh nah not really, but his hands are faster than carwins. Definitely better wrestling pedigree, but im not sure that will come into play as carwin will probably stop his takedown with ease since he'll be looking for just that. Cardio, cain might actually have that in the bag over carwin.

What I see in this fight is carwin being able to avoid the take down for a while, eventually getting put on his back if it goes to later rounds. But the killer is that cain isnt going to be able to wear on him like he has others, he just doesn't have the time. The way kongo his cain in the short time he was on his feet make me think carwin will hit cain as well, and if cain is constantly going for the takedown he will get hit and he'll get knocked out.


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## coldcall420 (Aug 2, 2007)

Biowza said:


> What I meant is, in reality...
> 
> 1) Cain probably won't get Carwin down
> 2) Even if he DOES get him down, he won't do any damage
> ...


 
I agree with you Bio....Dont let alizio see you posting this...LOL:thumb02:


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## Mr. Sparkle (Nov 3, 2009)

Danm2501 said:


> Yeah, apart from Cain having far better technical striking, a better wrestling pedigree and better cardio I'd have to agree with you.....


:thumbsup:


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Swarming all over Kongo? Swarming, if by swarming you mean taking him down and playing paddy-cake with his face than no. Carwin would have smashed Kongo's nose through the back of his head and called it a night. We have seen Cain go 3 rounds once and frankly he took Kongo down and did nothing. He did not posture up and try and do any real damage what so ever so lets not go praising this great cardio that we have NEVER seen, till he actually does something besides maintain top control on the worst guy in the entire division off his back I won't be impressed with his cardio. All he is proven is has somewhat of a gas tank.
> 
> 
> IMO Carwin takes this, Carwin has a great chin and he hits like a brick shit house. Even if everything goes Cain's way your looking at a similar situation to Kongo/Cain except Carwin hits harder and has better wrestling. IMO at some point its inevitable that Carwin catches him.


Lots of truth in there, but come on now... it takes some serious cardio to do what Cain did to Kongo. You make it sound like it was a gentle workout. My point still stands: I dont think Carwin has the stamina for that kind of prolonged fighting. If he meets Cain, thats the fight hes going to get... long and hard.


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## luckbox (Feb 12, 2010)

This fight will eventually happen I'm sure, but I don't think neither of those guys will get past Lesnar. Maybe a #1 contender bout somewhere down the line. And I see Carwin winning.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

wanted to read a few pages, see how the forums overall opinion of Mr. Velasquez has changed in just a few months.

Alot of ppl already knew and i see even more catching on now. Ppl will feel foolhardy when he owns this division.

i dunno.

Cain via tko, sub, decision??

too tough to call.

there is no place carwin is better. those that say such things i wont waste theirs or my own time argueing it. just open your eyes. 

EDIT ko power obv goes to carwin. 

FTR. Cain will start subbing ppl soon. Ask AA.

EDIT Shane Carwin has a Butterbean type chance vs Cain.





 so nice i post it twice


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## Ansem (Oct 16, 2009)

alizio said:


> wanted to read a few pages, see how the forums overall opinion of Mr. Velasquez has changed in just a few months.
> 
> Alot of ppl already knew and i see even more catching on now. Ppl will feel foolhardy when he owns this division.
> 
> ...


After seeing this video I'm convinced Cain can fight at lhw pretty well.


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## iceman120 (Apr 18, 2010)

:thumb01:


Danm2501 said:


> Velasquez has excellent control on the ground, and his G'n'P will be constantly improving, so I think if he was able to get Carwin down, which certainly wouldn't be a huge surprise given Velasquez's wrestling pedigree I think he could do damage.
> 
> Gonzaga badly rocked Carwin standing, and he was rocked by Neil Wain too; Cain just KO'd Nogueira and showed excellent technical striking. I wouldn't be so sure that Cain wouldn't do damage standing.
> 
> ...


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## iceman120 (Apr 18, 2010)

I agree with you, I believe if cain can start off quick with takedowns and tire out carwin, cain will be able to out last carwin and start the ground and pound. On the other hand if that does'nt work cain needs to be quick to the punch and use lots of leg kicks in order to take his power from those powerfull right hands carwin has.I have cain winning if it goes down!MEXICAN PRIDE!!!


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## Ansem (Oct 16, 2009)

You guys are making a mistake underestimating Lesnar, I doubt Carwin is gonna get past him, Lesnar is a beast and im sure he wont come to fight unless he's ready.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

Ansem said:


> You guys are making a mistake underestimating Lesnar, I doubt Carwin is gonna get past him, Lesnar is a beast and im sure he wont come to fight unless he's ready.


 Carwin wont get past Lesnar. And after Cain beats Lesnar, Carwin will never sniff a shot at him cuz he cant beat JDS either.

Its a shame. Big KO power gets hype, even from longtime MMA hardcore fans.

What has Carwin really shown us skill wise besides crazy power and sloppy boxing and a wrestling pedigree but little wrestling seen in his matches??

he is a blip on the HW radar. esp at 35 years old and only starting to train fulltime now.

oh, well. he KOs ppl. thats all the skill u need apparently to beat ppl way more techniqual, well rounded and better cardio.

Standing up. Carwins only hope is a bomb. he has worse boxing then Big Nog. Worse standup. Hell he may be slower then Big Nog standing.


he only has that power to fall back on. i dont think Cain is leaving his Chin out there tho.

Carwin isnt fast enough, or a good enough wrestler to take Cain down. He will just tire himself if he even tried it, which he might after seeing Cain come in and out with leg kicks and combos before he can even get his slow ass right hand off.

that being said i could see Carwin catching Cain maybe 1.5 or 2.5/10.

EDIT i think Brett Rogers could beat Carwin.


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## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

Aliz is acting like Randy isnt still winning at 46, after starting in at 33.

Im just loving this Carwin has no shot stuff, im sure your the same people who said Mir would kill him standing too.


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## Adam365 (Jul 10, 2008)

alizio said:


> Carwin wont get past Lesnar. And after Cain beats Lesnar, Carwin will never sniff a shot at him cuz he cant beat JDS either.
> 
> Its a shame. Big KO power gets hype, even from longtime MMA hardcore fans.
> 
> ...


Carwin looked pretty fast against Mir, and if cain stands with carwin lights out for cain I think. Can Cain get Carwin to the ground, maybe and we've never seen Carwin wrestle anyone yet so how can you knock his wrestling ability.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Do you have something against knockout power? That's all Carwin has needed so far. Aside from Nog, who is nowhere near what he used to be, Kongo is the only opponent of Cains that is any good at all. Who's he beat? Ben Rothwell, Jake O'brien? I understand that he's well conditioned according to his teammates but I just don't get all the hype he's receiving. He's too small to compete against the big hw's and it'll be proven as soon as he gets to fight one of them.


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## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

I dont think its fair to say he isnt big enough to fight the big heavyweights, because outside of Brock & Shane, who IS big enough to fight them?


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

That's my point exactly^


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## Rusko (Feb 4, 2010)

Lol cain, fedor, damn jds A. Silva, Machida, Shogun vs Carwin , no matter the weight difference

cain, fedor, jds vs brock

just too name a few


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

RustyRenegade said:


> Do you have something against knockout power? That's all Carwin has needed so far. Aside from Nog, who is nowhere near what he used to be, Kongo is the only opponent of Cains that is any good at all. Who's he beat? Ben Rothwell, Jake O'brien? I understand that he's well conditioned according to his teammates but I just don't get all the hype he's receiving. He's too small to compete against the big hw's and it'll be proven as soon as he gets to fight one of them.


knock out power? i have knockout power, carwin is on another level. thats like saying ron jeremy has a large wang. the dude could lose three inches and still be bigger than me.

carwin has the kind of power no one else in mma has ever shown to have, he can brutally KO you with almost nothing.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

was Cain too small when he was wrestling guys Brock size in college?? or beasts in high school?? being a top 5 in the country??

now we throw in the standup.... which he is actually much better at then both Brock and Carwin if you could get your mind around KO power. If you think Carwin can magically take a few bombs from Cain because he has KO power... w/e lol... its about who strikes 1st and most, not hardest.

Cain will be that guy.

to think he is too small when he actually excelled at grappling with much bigger men which is a much bigger disadvantage when you consider his standup edge.... i dunno what to say.

your wrong. Cain may lose a match here and there but those guys wont dominant him. no way.

If Carwin thought that Gonzaga got off fast on him.... he has another thing coming.

just when he thinks he has the timing down for a bomb... Cain ducks under and takes him down.

Cain has all the tools, folks. your man just has a sledgehammer.

the fear grows as the fight continues.... as the sledgehammer loses steam....

gl


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

I guess you're just a big fan of Cain and that's great. He's a good fighter who will only improve. He just won't improve anough to beat either of the big two. Only way I see Cain beating either one is if they get old. I'll just wait for the fights and quote you once he's been beaten down by either Carwin or Lesnar.

Cain was top five in the country? Lesnar was the national champ. Runner up as a junior as well.


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## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

alizio said:


> was Cain too small when he was wrestling guys Brock size in college?? or beasts in high school?? being a top 5 in the country??
> 
> now we throw in the standup.... which he is actually much better at then both Brock and Carwin if you could get your mind around KO power. If you think Carwin can magically take a few bombs from Cain because he has KO power... w/e lol... its about who strikes 1st and most, not hardest.
> 
> ...


OK how about another scenario.

Cain, by some miracle, takes Shane down.

Shane pushed his light little ass of him and gets up.

Cain trys to use combos on him.

Carwin punches Cain with one straight.

Cain drops like everyone.

Shane Carwin wins. A victory for Engineers everywhere has been had.

now we play brock vs cain.

Brock slams cain.

Brock gets to side control.

Brock Donkey Kongs Cain's face.

Cain looks like Mir after #II

Brock Wins.

when the skills are even, the size will decide the battle.

I can make giant ass posts seperating every sentence with a blank line too.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

KO power??

how many champions really have 1 punch KO power??

Lesnar?? maybe, havent seen it altho that shot he gave herring could have stopped some fighters imo

Machida?? Not one shot power.

Andy?? Yea.

GSP??? No.

Frankie Edgar?? lol


so why do ppl think its the most important factor again??

quote me all you want. not many ppl do. from the kongo thread, the rothwell thread, the nog thread.... nah.... nobody quotes those.

you will just not mention any of this when Brown Pride has the belt  but its ok, become a fan. Embrace the future.

Ppl so focused on two guys that are really big, and missing the real future of the division, the real fight to see.

Cain vs JDS


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

alizio said:


> Carwin wont get past Lesnar. And after Cain beats Lesnar, Carwin will never sniff a shot at him cuz he cant beat JDS either.
> 
> Its a shame. Big KO power gets hype, even from longtime MMA hardcore fans.
> 
> What has Carwin really shown us skill wise besides crazy power and sloppy boxing and a wrestling pedigree but little wrestling seen in his matches??


I get where you are coming from. I to think Cain would beat Carwin, not sure about Lesnar....both good fights. But your attitude that Cain will own the division and Carwin has no shot and Lesnar has little shot vs. Cain is pretty funny.

Then you talk about how Carwin has shown nothing but sloppy boxing and power. And how even long time fans are getting caught up in power over skill. Welllll....Mir and Gonzo are some of the most technical guys in the division and they were both rocked and ultimately lost to Carwin within 1 round. So to think power has little shot over technical skills is already factually incorrect. Mir and Gonzo aren't Cain, but if you think Cain's "technical" skill is too much for Lesnar's or Carwin's size and power then I guess it is just a wild guess, because they seemed to have done just fine. No where here am I saying who will beat who, of those 3 plus JDS I think any could win on any night. But for you to spread Cain getting pretty easy wins over these guys, calling Carwin's chances "butterbean" like...then I guess you are just a little to carried away with being the resident Cain lover...


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## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

Personally Frank is better then Cain at everything except wrestling, and better then JDS at everything except maybe striking, all the more reason i cant see a guy who isnt even near where these two Leviathens are stand a chance at not falling over curled toes and all after one decent carwin shot.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

Syxx Paq said:


> Personally Frank is better then Cain at everything except wrestling, and better then JDS at everything except maybe striking, all the more reason i cant see a guy who isnt even near where these two Leviathens are stand a chance at not falling over curled toes and all after one decent carwin shot.


 if you think Frank has better standup then Cain. you are seriously a horrible judge of talent and its completely laughable and stupid to even argue with you anymore.

better then JDS at everything except MAYBE striking??

.... im actually..... i dunno.... what to say,.... MAYBE??.... ok bro.... i dont ignore many ppl but i cant argue with a fool cuz from far away ppl dont know who is who.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

jonnyg4508 said:


> I get where you are coming from. I to think Cain would beat Carwin, not sure about Lesnar....both good fights. But your attitude that Cain will own the division and Carwin has no shot and Lesnar has little shot vs. Cain is pretty funny.
> 
> Then you talk about how Carwin has shown nothing but sloppy boxing and power. And how even long time fans are getting caught up in power over skill. Welllll....Mir and Gonzo are some of the most technical guys in the division and they were both rocked and ultimately lost to Carwin within 1 round. So to think power has little shot over technical skills is already factually incorrect. Mir and Gonzo aren't Cain, but if you think Cain's "technical" skill is too much for Lesnar's or Carwin's size and power then I guess it is just a wild guess, because they seemed to have done just fine. No where here am I saying who will beat who, of those 3 plus JDS I think any could win on any night. But for you to spread Cain getting pretty easy wins over these guys, calling Carwin's chances "butterbean" like...then I guess you are just a little to carried away with being the resident Cain lover...


 if u read my post i said Carwin can win 1.5 to 2.5/10 as my final analysis....

so that was a nice long post but i think 25% is not saying he is a complete bum.

Mir and Gonzo arent good standing.... and proven time and time again as mentally weak. Its not nearly the same thing. 

They are actually in a bad spot because they want the BJJ but cant get the takedown. They think their standup is a big asset when really its a liability.

Cain knows his strengths and can take fights wherever he wants.


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## Syxx Paq (Feb 19, 2010)

alizio said:


> if you think Frank has better standup then Cain. you are seriously a horrible judge of talent and its completely laughable and stupid to even argue with you anymore.
> 
> better then JDS at everything except MAYBE striking??
> 
> .... im actually..... i dunno.... what to say,.... MAYBE??.... ok bro.... i dont ignore many ppl but i cant argue with a fool cuz from far away ppl dont know who is who.


And i cant argue with someone who has actually made an effort to make himself cains personal BJ guy, without meeting the dude. this thread isnt really much but a shit fight now anyway.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

if you think Frank Mir is even in the same universe as JDS in terms of striking you should be his publicist, not his BJ guy.


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## BrutalKO (Oct 5, 2006)

...Interesting match-up but it's not in the books yet. The top 4 are obviously set and it couldn't be any better. Everyone is pretty much is on the same page as to see JDS vs. Cain. This fight has to happen. It would be an explosive, unbelievable top notch HW fight. Dos Santos & Cain could make fight of year. Both Cain & JDS have earned the shot to fight the winner of Lesnar & Carwin. If Joe Silva doesn't make JDS & Cain happen, he should stick his head in the sand...


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> Lots of truth in there, but come on now... it takes some serious cardio to do what Cain did to Kongo. You make it sound like it was a gentle workout. My point still stands: I dont think Carwin has the stamina for that kind of prolonged fighting. If he meets Cain, thats the fight hes going to get... long and hard.


Lesnar did it to Herring, what makes you think Carwin couldn't go the distance as easily? The one thing these 3 guys all have in common is a wrestling background, which has a lot to do with their ability and stamina in MMA. I think Carwin would be fine in a longer fight, he's a freak just like Cain and Brock.

Some of those training clips in the video alizio posted look like it's about a pro boxer. All these guys are still very green, but to me it's obvious that Cain is making the most improvements. We haven't seen accurate boxing from him in his fights like what can be seen in his training highlights, except against Nog when we saw exactly that, combined with some beautiful leg kicks. His striking has improved a lot, and while he doesn't have the one punch KO power of Carwin or JDS, he has shown a much more rounded game and is the greenist of them all. I think he's still doing a lot of feeling out as a fighter, and the more comfortable he gets in the cage the more devastating he will become. Machida couldn't finish David Heath once upon a time, the next thing we know he's leaving Thiago Silva and Rashad Evans out cold on the canvas. Cain is coming into his own, the best is yet to be seen.

He may have lacked some killer instinct and power against Kongo, but that was just his 6th MMA fight. Let's not forget about him pinning Jake O'brien in a crucifix and pounding his face to a TKO, he just didn't perform as well as he can against Kongo. He was generally quite wreckless in that fight, I seriously think if they fought again Cain would finish Kongo.

As for Cain vs Carwin, the only danger for Cain is Carwin's power. That's all Carwin has going for him against Brock or Cain, but it might not be enough. People are saying Cain wont be able to take Carwin down, yet Gonzaga did. Of course he can take Carwin down. It's more of a case of can he keep Carwin down, which I'm unsure about. We haven't seen enough of any of these guys to know what will happen. 

It's going to be fun to see Cain, Carwin, Brock and JDS all mix it up.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

Hiro said:


> Lesnar did it to Herring, what makes you think Carwin couldn't go the distance as easily? The one thing these 3 guys all have in common is a wrestling background, which has a lot to do with their ability and stamina in MMA. I think Carwin would be fine in a longer fight, he's a freak just like Cain and Brock.
> 
> Some of those training clips in the video alizio posted look like it's about a pro boxer. All these guys are still very green, but to me it's obvious that Cain is making the most improvements. We haven't seen accurate boxing from him in his fights like what can be seen in his training highlights, except against Nog when we saw exactly that, combined with some beautiful leg kicks. His striking has improved a lot, and while he doesn't have the one punch KO power of Carwin or JDS, he has shown a much more rounded game and is the greenist of them all. I think he's still doing a lot of feeling out as a fighter, and the more comfortable he gets in the cage the more devastating he will become. Machida couldn't finish David Heath once upon a time, the next thing we know he's leaving Thiago Silva and Rashad Evans out cold on the canvas. Cain is coming into his own, the best is yet to be seen.
> 
> ...


 see if i could post like this guy, i would. but i cant.

nice post!! you even watched the videos?? omg ppl actually looking up fighters to see how they TRAIN??


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

Syxx Paq said:


> And i cant argue with someone who has actually made an effort to make himself cains personal BJ guy, without meeting the dude. this thread isnt really much but a shit fight now anyway.


That's my opinion as well. Plus, as many times as I've seen alize post "Brown Pride" I'm beginning to think his support might just be coming from a racial affiliation. I'm all about being proud of where you came from but I can't imagine the uproar if Lesnar hopped in the cage with "white pride" in place of the ding a ling on his chest.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

if you cant simply tell that Carwin is gonna have problems with Cains quickness, headmovement, handspeed and angles... i dunno.

watch the video.

only 40 posts in and bringing up racism and white pride stuff?? gratz. i think you beat my record.

i didnt realize Cain was the only Chicano fighter out there. Damn we should recruit some more or ill have nobody to cheer for


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm not gonna base my opinion of a fighter on his training video but yes I did watch it. He looks good punching a bag, yes. Not saying that Cain won't be effective with head movement, hand speed, or his level of technical striking. All I'm saying is that he's going to lose. He's not going to beat Lesnar or Carwin until they are over the hill. I'll be the first guy to congratulate you if I'm wrong but I just don't see it happening. We can make any type of wager you want when the UFC puts him against either fighter.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

RustyRenegade said:


> I'm not gonna base my opinion of a fighter on his training video but yes I did watch it. He looks good punching a bag, yes. Not saying that Cain won't be effective with head movement, hand speed, or his level of technical striking. All I'm saying is that he's going to lose. He's not going to beat Lesnar or Carwin until they are over the hill. I'll be the first guy to congratulate you if I'm wrong but I just don't see it happening. We can make any type of wager you want when the UFC puts him against either fighter.


 now your talking!!

thats cool, i respect your opinion and fully disagree.

i'd be happy to bet credits or $ as i will be betting them myself anyways.

btw theres many better videos of Cain training online.

or you can hear fighter after fighter after fighter laud him. From the guys at AKA to Machida to Brett Rogers to Chael Sonnen to Andrei Arvolski.

Anybody that has trained with Cain Velasquez or seen him train 1st hand has said the same thing.

the future.

ever found it weird Rogers and Sonnen both went out of there way to big up Cain??


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

The paltry 5000 credits I have won't be much incentive to bet with so $ would be a better option. I have paypal so that won't be a problem. I'm not surprised by Cain getting props from other fighters since it's not hard to root for a guy that's respectful and works hard. I look forward to taking your money


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## suniis (Mar 30, 2010)

There is no doubt that the HW division has a top 4: Lesnar, Carwin, Cain and JDS.

However, I do see a difference between the 1st 2 and the others:
Lesnar and Carwin are now...where Cain and JDS are the future...

I do think Cain and JDS are technically better...and I do think that Carwin and Lesnar are beasts...

Who knows who will win?

But to come out and be so sure about the chances of either of them is just foolish IMO...


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

alizio said:


> wanted to read a few pages, see how the forums overall opinion of Mr. Velasquez has changed in just a few months.
> 
> Alot of ppl already knew and i see even more catching on now. Ppl will feel foolhardy when he owns this division.
> 
> ...


Carwin obviously has a better chin than Cain whose the wrestling Andrei Arlovski.

Carwin has more submission wins than Cain (4 in total, 5 if you include taps to strikes to Cain's none).

A Butterbean chance? Come on Carwin is a substantially more decorated amateur wrestler than Cain is, has more submission wins and hits harder than probably anyone in the HW division and is considerably bigger and stronger and yet you act like he is some freakshow with virtually no chance.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

This is how I see it coming out. Cain can not stand with Carwin. As good as he was technically in the Nog fight is impressive but that is a completely different striker. I watch the video that is supposed to help gain support for Cain and I keep seeing the Kongo fight. Kongo had not problem landing strikes whenever Cain tried to stand with him. If Carwin lands he goes to sleep. Carwin does not have good defensive boxing but he sets up his punches beutifully. His left right combos are amazing to watch in slow motion. Standing Cain would last for a while but he needs to get on top fast. The other scenario is Carwin just wants to show his wrestling in this fight. Against Lesnar he will have a hard time getting the bigger guy down. Against Cain I do not think he will have a problem. And does anyone last long when Carwin starts his GnP? I still have not seen a clip where Carwin starts those bombs going and the guy is not done in 10 seconds. The only way Cain wins is if he can get the TD on Carwin and keep getting the TD. He stands too long with Carwin and his head is removed.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

The505Butcher said:


> This is how I see it coming out. Cain can not stand with Carwin. As good as he was technically in the Nog fight is impressive but that is a completely different striker. I watch the video that is supposed to help gain support for Cain and I keep seeing the Kongo fight. Kongo had not problem landing strikes whenever Cain tried to stand with him. If Carwin lands he goes to sleep. Carwin does not have good defensive boxing but he sets up his punches beutifully. His left right combos are amazing to watch in slow motion. Standing Cain would last for a while but he needs to get on top fast. The other scenario is Carwin just wants to show his wrestling in this fight. Against Lesnar he will have a hard time getting the bigger guy down. Against Cain I do not think he will have a problem. And does anyone last long when Carwin starts his GnP? I still have not seen a clip where Carwin starts those bombs going and the guy is not done in 10 seconds. The only way Cain wins is if he can get the TD on Carwin and keep getting the TD. He stands too long with Carwin and his head is removed.


Carwin is not gonna try and take Lesnar down not only is Lesnar the bigger stronger guy but he is also a more accomplished wrestler.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Carwin is not gonna try and take Lesnar down not only is Lesnar the bigger stronger guy but he is also a more accomplished wrestler.


Yeah I know that was just part of my train of thought. But what I am saying is that if Carwin feels any realy trouble on the feet or if he think he can get the TD he will. And I have yet to see the fight last to long after that. If cain takes you down we have seen people last the rest of the fight. Carwin takes you down and you lucky to last 20 seconds is what I was trying to say there. 

In the Lesnar fight he wants to keep it standing or in the clinch as much as possible.


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## Rusty (Apr 13, 2010)

My thoughts on the big four: Carwin is the only fighter that has a real chance against Brock only because of his punching power. Although trying to knock out Lesnar judging by the size of his head might be like trying to knock out a horse or cow. But if anyone could it would be Shane.

JDS has a slight chance against Lesnar because he too has good power. Not Carwin power, but good power. He would be taken down and pummeled quickly IMO.

Cain has slim to none chance against Lesnar or Carwin. He will be outgunned as far as power and athleticism against both of these two and will only have a wrestling edge against JDS. He might be able to wrestle JDS but that's iffy.

All in all, I see Lesnar as the obvious top choice, Carwin as the runner up with the chance to win and JDS and Cain on the outside looking in. Would really like to see a fight between these two though. My 2 cents.

On second thought I can't think of a matchup with any of the four that wouldn't be a great fight. Great time to be a fight fan:thumb02:


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## iceman120 (Apr 18, 2010)

*don't count out the BROCK!!*

:confused01:You are right Carwin will really have to use some takedown defense against Brock,cuz once Brock gets him down it might be all over for Carwin. If he does get past Brock he needs to mentally get ready to go more than 1 rd. Cain will take him there and if Carwins not mentally there HE'S FINISHED because Cain's already there(for a war). Cain's carcio is intense. Carwin will have to depend on a 1 hit K.O. and it better be quick. "CAIN" by TKO. DONE!!UOTE=Ansem;1171718]You guys are making a mistake underestimating Lesnar, I doubt Carwin is gonna get past him, Lesnar is a beast and im sure he wont come to fight unless he's ready.[/QUOTE]


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Carwin obviously has a better chin than Cain whose *the wrestling Andrei Arlovski*.


Huh? Kongo landed 3 heavy shots on Cain, and although he was hurt, he wasn't finished, and straight after every shot proceeded to take Cheick down. Kongo has heavier hands and better striking than Gonzaga and Wain, who both rocked Carwin. Not really sure where I'm going with the point, but I certainly don't agree that Velasquez has a glass-chin; if he had a glass chin he'd have been out-cold after those Kongo shots, not taking him down.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

iceman120 said:


> :confused01:You are right Carwin will really have to use some takedown defense against Brock,cuz once Brock gets him down it might be all over for Carwin. If he does get past Brock he needs to mentally get ready to go more than 1 rd. Cain will take him there and if Carwins not mentally there HE'S FINISHED because Cain's already there(for a war). Cain's carcio is intense. Carwin will have to depend on a 1 hit K.O. and it better be quick. "CAIN" by TKO. DONE!!UOTE=Ansem;1171718]You guys are making a mistake underestimating Lesnar, I doubt Carwin is gonna get past him, Lesnar is a beast and im sure he wont come to fight unless he's ready.


[/QUOTE]

What makes you think Carwin is not there mentally or that he is not ready for a war? We saw Carwin get up dazed against GG and NO ONE knows anything about his cardio! Stop bringing up other fighters cardio against him because for all anyone knows his cardio is better than Cain's. Not saying it is but until we see it, it really should not be used against him. 

LEsnar has finished one opponent on the ground and that was Mir. Other than that he just did baby taps with his weight for and hour to Herring.

And where does Wain rock Carwin? I must have missed that.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Carwin is not gonna try and take Lesnar down not only is Lesnar the bigger stronger guy but he is also a more accomplished wrestler.


 ummmm..... Cain is the more accomplished wrestler.... junior college champion and top 5 division 1.

Only Steve Mocco and Cole Konrad had better wrestling creditentials then Cain Velasquez when he was in college.

Carwin was never even top 10. Division 2 is nice and some guys can hang but its far inferior. especially back then when even div1 was kinda weak. when Brock was owning it.

where you getting this Carwin has better wrestling creditentials?? he didnt even go to a bigtime wrestling school and hasnt showed us much wrestling in his matches.

his wrestling days are long behind him.

he wasnt close to Brock or Cain in his prime, nevermind now.

funny you admit Lesnar is a better wrestler then Carwin, yet Cain has about the same creditentials but Carwin is clearly the more "accomplished" wrestler?

guess i should stop watching and training wrestling.
i dont even think u understand what wins over Mocco and Konrad mean.... Carwin was wrestling nobodies in div2...


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

alizio said:


> ummmm..... Cain is the more accomplished wrestler.... junior college champion and top 5 division 1.
> 
> Only Steve Mocco and Cole Konrad had better wrestling creditentials then Cain Velasquez when he was in college.
> 
> ...


I like how you got all crazy about this when he was talking about the Carwin/Lesnar fight... Lesnar is the more accomplished wrestler when we are talking that fight. Or am I missing something?


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Carwin obviously has a better chin than Cain whose the wrestling Andrei Arlovski.
> 
> Carwin has more submission wins than Cain (4 in total, 5 if you include taps to strikes to Cain's none).
> 
> A Butterbean chance? Come on Carwin is a substantially more decorated amateur wrestler than Cain is, has more submission wins and hits harder than probably anyone in the HW division and is considerably bigger and stronger and yet you act like he is some freakshow with virtually no chance.


 read the above quote.

"carwin is a substantially more decorated wrestler than Cain is"

that is untrue and makes me think Toxic doesnt really watch amatuer wrestling

btw not to completely discredit Carwin. Div2 national champion is a serious feat. but to say its bigger then being a div1 semi finalist or holding wins over two of the greatest amatuer college wrestlers of all time... that doesnt hold weight.

i do know Carwin has some sub wins.

Im sure Cain could have had some sub wins too, he is a blue belt world champion.

he is a natural wrestler tho and many times those guys stick with the more comfortable control and GnP rather then potentially give up position for a sub.

As always for wrestling, sometimes its very close and comes down to judges decisions. imma find the Konrad fight with Cain, many feel he was robbed. Vid was taken down off youtube... blah

Cain was very close to being div1 national champion. he is up there with anybody you wanna name in the country....4 years ago....


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## iceman120 (Apr 18, 2010)

Calm down, you might be right carwin might have great cardio. I'm just saying he's been taking people out in the 1st rd. So when your doing that you start to depend on that 1st rd. K.O.,from my experience. It starts to become like a given after doing it so many times,I could be wrong.(just my take on the fight)"if it happens".Cain has been rocked by Kongo a few times, so he can take a punch. Well Wain as you put it will rock him 3rd. "OVER" , again just my take on the fight,if and when it happens. Take care BUTCHER!!


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

iceman120 said:


> .Cain has been rocked by Kongo a few times, so he can take a punch. Well Wain as you put it will rock him 3rd. "OVER" , again just my take on the fight,if and when it happens. Take care BUTCHER!!


Yeah and GG rocked Carwin so he can take a punch. Not real logic.

what are you saying when you are talking about wain?

And thank you I will. You too.


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## Danm2501 (Jun 22, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> And where does Wain rock Carwin? I must have missed that.


My mistake. Just watched the fight back, and Wain didn't rock Shane. Think it might have been the left hand at about 8-9 seconds from Wain that I thought rocked Carwin, as he immediately went for the TD, but after watching back I'm not too sure. Carwin's stand-up certainly didn't look anything like impressive in that fight though.


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Danm2501 said:


> My mistake. Just watched the fight back, and Wain didn't rock Shane. Think it might have been the left hand at about 8-9 seconds from Wain that I thought rocked Carwin, as he immediately went for the TD, but after watching back I'm not too sure. Carwin's stand-up certainly didn't look anything like impressive in that fight though.


I don't think Carwin's stand up ever really looks impressive until he lands that right hand. Yeah I think that Carwin just wanted to take him to the ground in that fight but maybe I am wrong.

What I do find funny about that though is either way he is rocked by Wain and he still has the presence of mind to get the TD and then end the fight shortly there after. So,ething Cain did in the Kongo fight and people use that to promote Cain. 

He was not rocked and he shows his skill and technique and wins the fight early. And everyone uses it against him... interesting.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

This thread has got me so hyped to see all these heavies go at it. 

What's the latest on Cain and JDS? I remember hearing they wouldn't be fighting each other, but are they going to get some cage time while Brock and Carwin sort out who's the better donkey kong? 

I'd like to see Cain get another run out before he gets his shot. What about Frank Mir? Maybe it doesn't make much business sense to risk a contender against someone like Mir but it also doesn't make too much sense to restrict someone so inexperienced from improving as much as they can before a title fight.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

The505Butcher said:


> I don't think Carwin's stand up ever really looks impressive until he lands that right hand. Yeah I think that Carwin just wanted to take him to the ground in that fight but maybe I am wrong.
> 
> What I do find funny about that though is either way he is rocked by Wain and he still has the presence of mind to get the TD and then end the fight shortly there after. So,ething Cain did in the Kongo fight and people use that to promote Cain.
> 
> He was not rocked and he shows his skill and technique and wins the fight early. And everyone uses it against him... interesting.



i never use getting rocked as anything. both recovered nicely.

this is the HW division. the big boys hit hard. if you think (insert name here) can take flush shots from a 240+ pound HW on the button and not be effected you looking for WWE and not MMA.


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## BobbyD (Apr 27, 2008)

BobbyD to alizio when Cain loses to Carwin AND Lesnar


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## The505Butcher (Jul 30, 2009)

alizio said:


> i never use getting rocked as anything. both recovered nicely.
> 
> this is the HW division. the big boys hit hard. if you think (insert name here) can take flush shots from a 240+ pound HW on the button and not be effected you looking for WWE and not MMA.


Yeah I know but everyone keeps using it in this. I saw Carwin get rocked and still had the ability to time that short punch for the KO.

Everyone at this level hits hard. Carwin just hits harder IMO.


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## xeberus (Apr 23, 2007)

alizio said:


> i never use getting rocked as anything. both recovered nicely.
> 
> this is the HW division. the big boys hit hard. *if you think (insert name here) can take flush shots from a 240+ pound HW on the button and not be effected* you looking for WWE and not MMA.


cabbage and mark hunt in their primes :thumb02:


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Danm2501 said:


> Huh? Kongo landed 3 heavy shots on Cain, and although he was hurt, he wasn't finished, and straight after every shot proceeded to take Cheick down. Kongo has heavier hands and better striking than Gonzaga and Wain, who both rocked Carwin. Not really sure where I'm going with the point, but I certainly don't agree that Velasquez has a glass-chin; if he had a glass chin he'd have been out-cold after those Kongo shots, not taking him down.


I wouldn't bet my ass that Kongo hits harder than Gonzaga, Gabe is a big boy with some real power. Kongo has never managed to drop anybody else he has ever fought at will like that, funny how we are expected to believe that all the moons and stars aligned right that it just happened that every hard punch Kongo threw not only landed but landed right on the button you know they all were so perfect that they would have dropped "anybody", Damn I never knew Kongo was such a perfect striker.:dunno: Cain has a damn questionable chin, that is a fact, he is just lucky because he has wrestled so long his instinct is to shoot and since Kongo's TD defense is non existent that worked for him but those TD's were not that good,they weren't Cain's usual TD's that look impressive those were desperation TD's that would not take down a solid wrestler and definatly not somebody as big and strong as Carwin.


alizio said:


> ummmm..... Cain is the more accomplished wrestler.... junior college champion and top 5 division 1.
> 
> Only Steve Mocco and Cole Konrad had better wrestling creditentials then Cain Velasquez when he was in college.
> 
> ...


I don't really know that much about amateur wrestling and the level or quality of schools and what not. Merely looking at statistics on the net Carwin won his division and you know the old saying that to the victor goes the scores and nobody remembers who came in 2nd. Well I never even realize Cain was a runner up all I saw were state titles.


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## chosenFEW (Oct 25, 2009)

Syxx Paq said:


> Once Brock gets killed by first round Carwinage, Cain will be killed by first round Carwinage. This cant end any other way


lmao agreed... i'd love to see brock get KO'd early... dont know if it would happen though.


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## alizio (May 27, 2009)

Toxic said:


> I wouldn't bet my ass that Kongo hits harder than Gonzaga, Gabe is a big boy with some real power. Kongo has never managed to drop anybody else he has ever fought at will like that, funny how we are expected to believe that all the moons and stars aligned right that it just happened that every hard punch Kongo threw not only landed but landed right on the button you know they all were so perfect that they would have dropped "anybody", Damn I never knew Kongo was such a perfect striker.:dunno: Cain has a damn questionable chin, that is a fact, he is just lucky because he has wrestled so long his instinct is to shoot and since Kongo's TD defense is non existent that worked for him but those TD's were not that good,they weren't Cain's usual TD's that look impressive those were desperation TD's that would not take down a solid wrestler and definatly not somebody as big and strong as Carwin.
> 
> I don't really know that much about amateur wrestling and the level or quality of schools and what not. Merely looking at statistics on the net Carwin won his division and you know the old saying that to the victor goes the scores and nobody remembers who came in 2nd. Well I never even realize Cain was a runner up all I saw were state titles.


 the kongo thing... i dunno what to say, i dont he didnt get hit flush once.... it was 2 big shots in a row. Cain made mistakes because he wasnt engaging enough standing to set up TDs cuz he was having such an easy time with TDs.

Either way if you wanna call it questionable be my guest.we will see. either way he recovered almost instantly, kinda like Carwin except Cain didnt end up on the ground before he recovered.

Kongo has 9 TKOs in 15 wins.... he isnt some crappy BJJ guy who thinks he is a striker cuz of one head kick.... he is a striker.
As for the wrestling. Big of you to admit it. Its the same with BJJ i just mostly go by whats on paper cuz i dont follow it as a individual sport.

Carwin was division 2 champion, not division 1.

the difference is massive as a whole. Near the top tho, plenty of Division 2 guys can hang in division 1 but likely wouldnt be top 10.

Cain won Junior College Championship and did what alot of JCC's do and moved to div1. 

Admittedingly i dont know much about Carwin, following division2 wrestling is kinda like following womens basketball in college....

ive seen a couple old videos of carwin and thats it. perhaps he could hang.

as far as creditentials go. Carwin is way back in 3rd in between the big 3 wrestlers are concerned.

good thing creditentials dont win fights 

btw i shouldnt but a lil ammo for Brock fans....

The same dude that Cain got robbed against and went on to win NCAA title, Cole Konrad, 2x NCAA Champion, is the training partner of none other then Brock Lesnar now.

From all accounts Brock tosses him around in training. all the time. Cole Konrad is a 280 pound, gifted wrestler only a couple years removed from being div1 national champion.

gl shane


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## RageInDaCage (Mar 1, 2007)

*Bingo!*



Syxx Paq said:


> Once Brock gets killed by first round Carwinage, Cain will be killed by first round Carwinage. This cant end any other way


Sir, I could not agree with you anymore. Please trademark Carwinage as soon as possible...thank you.


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## Hiro (Mar 9, 2010)

What's the big deal with the Kongo fight? Cain didn't have a great performance, took several right hands straight on the jaw by getting wreckless but recovered and still did what he had to do to win the fight. Cain was steaming forward into right hands, they would do damage to anyone. It was his 6th fight against a seasoned striker who had about 20 fights at that time, Cain is a different beast now.

Look at how Kongo folded Dan Evensen with a straight right, it's obvious he's got power. Any heavyweight who lands clean on the jaw is going to cause damage. Cain took the punches, still won convincingly, then in his next two fights didn't get touched and lit Nogueira up with the fastest and most brutal combo Nog has ever been on the wrong end of.

Fighters improve, that's what makes a champion. Cain is improving more than anyone. If Carwin lands his right hand on Brock, Cain, JDS or anyone then it's lights out. Cain eating shots and getting rocked by Kongo wont be relevant because he's learnt and improved. I believe against Carwin Cain would use a mixture of leg crippling kicks and take downs to grind Carwin down. He'll have improved enough, be smart enough and quick enough to stay elusive and take it to Carwin.

Lesnar is the harder fight for Cain.


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