# Pros pick "Diaz vs BJ"



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

> Pros who picked Nick Diaz: 1 - Stephan Bonnar
> 
> Pros who picked BJ Penn: 4 - Manny Gamburyan, Duane Ludwig, Rafael Cordeiro, Anthony Njokuani
> 
> Pros who were undecided: 3 - Wanderlei Silva, Tyson Griffin, Phil Baroni


I am surprised so many people are favoring BJ. I kind of think this is an easy pick in favor of Diaz.

I give BJ a slight edge in boxing BUT i dont think the edge is big enough to finish Diaz with it. Im not sure who i give the edge in submissions but i think it might be Nick. But i dont see either fighting submiting the other. 
I think this fight is going to be decided on Cardio and that handsssss down goes to Nick Diaz. In the 3rd round i think Diaz is going to overwhelm BJ especially since the fight is taking place at WW. 

I think Nick wins via 3rd round TKO or Decision. If the fight is a 5 round fight (Im not sure) i think Diaz paces himself and TKOs BJ in the fifth.

I think ima head over to the Vbookie and put some points on Diaz.



Heres to hoping that this thread stays stalker/troll free.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

First off - leave the personal jabs out of the OP in the future. (I edited the names out for you)

On topic I also see Nick winning this if it goes the distance, but it's a good fight for a reason, pretty close


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Budhisten said:


> First off - leave the personal jabs out of the OP in the future. (I edited the names out for you)
> 
> On topic I also see Nick winning this if it goes the distance, but it's a good fight for a reason, pretty close


You think cause your name is a girls color that you can come in here and edit my thread!!??? Who the hell do you think you are.!

*Hides behind couch*










Haha i see your point Budhisten. 
But its not as much personal as it is the truth.

But anyway.

I see it being a competitive fight but i just dont see how BJ can win this. If Paul Daley couldnt put Nick Diaz away (Even though on a different day that fight would have been a TKO favoring Daley, but thats a different story) how is BJ going to?? Just cause BJ beat a Matt Hughes that cant take a punch if his life depended on it. It does not mean that BJ has improved that much since his last trip to WW or sealed any holes in his game. He will look good in RD 1 and then Diaz will take over from there.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

I know how you feel  but personal matters should be discussed in private if you feel the need 

Let's keep this thread on the topic of the wonderful fight we'll be watching this weekend


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Budhisten said:


> I know how you feel  but personal matters should be discussed in private if you feel the need
> 
> Let's keep this thread on the topic of the wonderful fight we'll be watching this weekend


Yes yes i was writing more to keep it on topic.

Wanted to ask real quick. You know if its been decided that this will be a 5 round fight??? Arnt all Main Events supposed to be 5 rounds or something?


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

So purple is a girls name huh? Forget the peanut butter and a slow Monday night date Side. 

I don't know on who to root for, i think i want Diaz to win and believe he has a very good chance when this one goes to the later rounds.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

Well as far as I'm aware nothing is official so it'll probably be three rounds. The fighters haven't been preparing for five rounds, so I expect it to remain three.

Though all main-events are supposed to be five rounds, Leben vs Munoz will be, so will Bisping vs Mayhem just to name a few


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Rauno said:


> So purple is a girls name huh? Forget the peanut butter and a slow Monday night date Side.
> 
> I don't know on who to root for, i think i want Diaz to win and believe he has a very good chance when this one goes to the later rounds.


Uh ohh... what ment was... ahh crap. raise01:




Budhisten said:


> Well as far as I'm aware nothing is official so it'll probably be three rounds. The fighters haven't been preparing for five rounds, so I expect it to remain three.
> 
> Though all main-events are supposed to be five rounds, Leben vs Munoz will be, so will Bisping vs Mayhem just to name a few


The only reason i can think of for it to not be a 5 rounder is because this wasnt the original Main Event but instead it was bumped since GSP got injured. Il be honest i think if this fight was 5 rounds it would make it more interesting. I think its very likely that a 3 rounder goes the distance.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

SideWays222 said:


> The only reason i can think of for it to not be a 5 rounder is because this wasnt the original Main Event but instead it was bumped since GSP got injured. Il be honest i think if this fight was 5 rounds it would make it more interesting. I think its very likely that a 3 rounder goes the distance.


That's why it will probably remain three rounds, because neither of them were preparing for five.

Though both competitors have expressed willingness to make it five rounds, for the right price


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

Budhisten said:


> That's why it will probably remain three rounds, *because neither of them were preparing for five.
> *
> Though both competitors have expressed willingness to make it five rounds, for the right price


Diaz was preparing for GSP.


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## Rauno (Nov 20, 2009)

A 5 rounder definitely favors Diaz on this one. I hope they make it a 5 rounder, 3 round main events don't just cut it anymore.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Soojooko said:


> Diaz was preparing for GSP.


He hasnt been preparing for GSP for a while now. 

But i see your point.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

diaz by decision, neither will be finished they have granite chins


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

UFC_OWNS said:


> diaz by decision, neither will be finished they have granite chins


Diaz has amazing recovery skills but his chin itself isnt that great. He gets rocked quiet a bit.


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## The Lone Wolf (Sep 23, 2008)

Diaz wont be able to rock Penn, but his constant peppering style might take away the heart of BJ. If he does, the rest of the fight will be a walk in the park for Diaz.

My prediction is that Penn subs Diaz after dropping him with a heavy right hand.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

SideWays222 said:


> Diaz has amazing recovery skills but his chin itself isnt that great. He gets rocked quiet a bit.


That's still a good chin imo it just means it needs to refresh after it gets hit hard a lot


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## Finnsidious (Mar 14, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> You think cause your name is a girls color that you can come in here and edit my thread!!??? Who the hell do you think you are.!
> 
> *Hides behind couch*
> 
> ...


You really don't see how BJ can win this?? 

I agree in a five round fight, Diaz wins most of the time, Penn has lousy cardio and heart. Penn only yapped about being happy to make it 5 rounds because he knew damn well they can't change it at this stage. But this is one of the times those two rounds make all the difference.

People keep raving about Diaz boxing, but I'll say it again....look at who he's fighting!!! He fights cans or guys who are almost cans, and has been for years. And on top of that, he gets knocked down almost every fight by those cans. Yes, he has a very good chin, good recovery, but Penn will shred him standing for the first two rounds, then gas and lose the third, win decision, I can't see it going any other way.

Of course you really can't trust Penn to show up for big fights, but he should win this pretty easy, Diaz is so so hittable.


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## cdtcpl (Mar 9, 2007)

Penn has a much better 'finishing sense' than most of Diaz's opponents. A lot of Diaz's opponents (like Daley) tend to get sloppier as they feel they are winning which gives Diaz a chance to catch them. Penn seems to be more accurate and powerful when he thinks he has someone hurt. I think Penn finishes Diaz in the 3rd.


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## Soojooko (Jun 4, 2009)

I have no idea.

I don't even know who I *want* to win.

I just dont know. :confused02:



... still, what a great match-up!


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Soojooko said:


> I have no idea.
> 
> I don't even know who I *want* to win.
> 
> ...


My "expert opinion" exactly. I just hope they both come fired up. I'm afraid their hearts aren't in it. if they are .....FOTY


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

I see we have some new Diaz backers :thumb02:. On vbookie there were like 3 (myself included) that betted on diaz with like 12 on Penn, now the tide is turing. 5 rounds makes a MAJOR difference and barring a 1 or 2nd round tko or rocked-submission I see this as Diaz all the way. 

Penn has questionable cardio and when he can't dominate, questionable heart. He also doesn't have leg kicks, dirty boxing in clinch, elbows and knees. In a a straight boxing match I think Diaz takes it. Even though Penn is crisper and has a speed advantage, Diaz's length and height (6'1 to Penn's 5'9), awkward attack angles and combos (look for body shots being a major key in this fight) will more than make up for Penn better technique. When you factor in cardio needed for a 5 round fight and the fact that Diaz is a natural WW and Penn is a natural LW then the pieces start to fall into place.

That being said there is NO way Diaz will walk over Penn and it will be very close. I give Diaz a 60-65% chance of winning.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

5 rounds or 3 makes no diffrence. Diaz isn't gonna make it to the 3rd round because plain and simple Penn is that freaking good. Penn will out strike Diaz, rock him follow him down and finish him.
Manny Gamburyan, Duane Ludwig, Rafael Cordeiro, Anthony Njokuani and you can add GSP since he also picked Penn to the list. I promise you that you will see more and more pick Penn because they know how bad of a match up Penn is for Diaz.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Toxic said:


> 5 rounds or 3 makes no diffrence. Diaz isn't gonna make it to the 3rd round because plain and simple Penn is that freaking good. Penn will out strike Diaz, rock him follow him down and finish him.
> Manny Gamburyan, Duane Ludwig, Rafael Cordeiro, Anthony Njokuani and you can add GSP since he also picked Penn to the list. I promise you that you will see more and more pick Penn because they know how bad of a match up Penn is for Diaz.


mm those 1million creds will taste delicious and it will be 3-0 to me over you


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

I see neither of them subbing eachother...no way in hell actually.

I don't think either will lose by KO/TKO. They both have great chins.

People like to rag on Penn's cardio. Yea it isn't on Diaz's level that is a given. But Diaz isn't some big ass wrestler trying to lay on him and take everything out of him. How does Penn cut to 155 and go 4 rounds will Kenny, go 5 amazing rounds with Diego...and have terrible cardio? His cardio should be better. But in a 3 round boxing match I doubt he will gas. If he does in the 3rd it won't be some sloppy HW like gas. 

I see BJ winning 2 rounds with better (crisper) boxing. And more important better head movement and defense.

ALSO, I don't get why people just overlook this. But if he wanted to, which I'm not sure he will, but if he wanted too he could take Diaz down pretty much anytime he wanted too. 

Going to be a great fight though. But those are my reasons I take Penn in a close fight.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

UFC_OWNS said:


> mm those 1million creds will taste delicious and it will be 3-0 to me over you


Glad you can go with a selective memory and remember the ones you got right.:thumbsup:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Glad you can go with a selective memory and remember the ones you got right.:thumbsup:


Someone's getting nervous already, the ghosts of jake shields and ben rothwell are cursing you.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

UFC_OWNS said:


> Someone's getting nervous already, the ghosts of jake shields and ben rothwell are cursing you.


Nope, don't think because you picked a couple fights right your some kind of Messiah. Diaz has been left reeling by far worse fighters than Penn. Ask yourself one question who is the best fighter Diaz has ever beaten? Do you go with the old past his prime Shamrock?, Old ass Sakurai? Gomi? Who is the this great fighter that Diaz has beaten. Penn is on a completely different level than anybody that Diaz has ever fought.


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## DragonStriker (Feb 11, 2009)

Bj could and should take this by a sub or decision.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

They are probably favoring BJ because he is better at everything.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

I think Penn takes this fight pretty comfortably. Who has Diaz looked impressive against that's even close to Penn's level?


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

khoveraki said:


> I think Penn takes this fight pretty comfortably. Who has Diaz looked impressive against that's even close to Penn's level?


At WW Bj Penn is not this stud you guys claim him to be. He ran from the LW division because he couldnt beat Frankie Edgar. Since coming back to WW he beat Matt Hughes and had a draw against Fitch (A fight im fairly certain Fitch wins in a Rematch). 

Diaz has beaten a bunch of B level fighters BUT he beat a Daley not wrestling but striking with him. Daley is a much better striker then BJ imo. Diaz is a very capable fighter and i just dont see BJ putting him away. I do see BJ getting tired and unlike Fitch, Nick Diaz can actually finish a fight.


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## ASKREN4WIN (Jul 12, 2011)

What has Diaz done to make people think he could beat BJ, beat up on a bunch of SF fighters? BJ has been fighting top level fighters for as long as I can remember. 

I think the forward moving peppering style of boxing Diaz likes will play right into Bjs hands. BJ has way, way better boxing than Diaz, he has a solid jab, good combos and loves to counter punch which will be an advantage against the style of Diaz.

BJ has better BJJ and better wrestling, Diaz is a tough dude but if he thinks he is going to walk in front of BJ with his hands down taunting him then he can expect to get lit up.


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## ASKREN4WIN (Jul 12, 2011)

SideWays222 said:


> At WW Bj Penn is not this stud you guys claim him to be. He ran from the LW division because he couldnt beat Frankie Edgar. Since coming back to WW he beat Matt Hughes and had a draw against Fitch (A fight im fairly certain Fitch wins in a Rematch).
> 
> Diaz has beaten a bunch of B level fighters BUT he beat a Daley not wrestling but striking with him. *Daley is a much better striker then BJ imo*. Diaz is a very capable fighter and i just dont see BJ putting him away. I do see BJ getting tired and unlike Fitch, Nick Diaz can actually finish a fight.


This is not necessarily the case anymore, Daley is a much more powerful striker, but BJ is much more elusive, is a better boxer (not better Muay Thai) and has wrestling and a ground game and if BJ wants to take Diaz down he will be able to. Not only will BJ enjoy an advantage in boxing over Diaz, but he will have something Daley does not which is the option to take Diaz down and dominate him on the ground.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

ASKREN4WIN said:


> This is not necessarily the case anymore, Daley is a much more powerful striker, but BJ is much more elusive, is a better boxer (not better Muay Thai) and has wrestling and a ground game and if BJ wants to take Diaz down he will be able to. Not only will BJ enjoy an advantage in boxing over Diaz, but he will have something Daley does not which is the option to take Diaz down and dominate him on the ground.


BJ is the better boxer but all around striker i think Daley wins pretty easily. With BJ he will have to worry about the takedown while with Daley he had to worry about kicks and elbows and knees. And to be fair BJ isnt exactly the best wrestler. I think he is actually one of the worse wrestlers in the WW division. Dont be surprised if Nick can stuff some takedown attempts and break BJs will. The aspect that BJ excels in is his TDD but i dont see that coming in to play here.


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## ASKREN4WIN (Jul 12, 2011)

SideWays222 said:


> BJ is the better boxer but all around striker i think Daley wins pretty easily. With BJ he will have to worry about the takedown while with Daley he had to worry about kicks and elbows and knees. And to be fair BJ isnt exactly the best wrestler. I think he is actually one of the worse wrestlers in the WW division. Dont be surprised if Nick can stuff some takedown attempts and break BJs will. The aspect that BJ excels in is his TDD but i dont see that coming in to play here.


Nick Diaz wrestling virtually sucks, Im sure if BJ can get Fitch down then he should be able to take down Diaz. This is not going to be one of those fights where BJs opponant can push BJ against the cage and try and wear him out either as I beleive BJ wins in the clinch as well.

Remember Bj has spent time training with Matt Hughes who is one of the best wrestlers in WW history.

In addition he has trained with the likes of Freddy Roach and Floyd Mayweather SR who holds BJ boxing in high regards.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

ASKREN4WIN said:


> Nick Diaz wrestling virtually sucks, Im sure if BJ can get Fitch down then he should be able to take down Diaz. This is not going to be one of those fights where BJs opponant can push BJ against the cage and try and wear him out either as I beleive BJ wins in the clinch as well.
> 
> Remember Bj has spent time training with Matt Hughes who is one of the best wrestlers in WW history.
> 
> In addition he has trained with the likes of Freddy Roach and Floyd Mayweather SR who holds BJ boxing in high regards.


Ehhh maybe. I think the Fitch scenario was more of a case of Fitch being surprised that BJ is trying to take him down rather then its about BJs wrestling being that good. I think we will see Nick stuff a few take downs. As you said BJ has an edge in the clinch and i think if he does want to take the fight to the ground that clinching Nick and dragging him down is BJs better bet. He is better at that then he is at flat out shooting.


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## ASKREN4WIN (Jul 12, 2011)

SideWays222 said:


> Ehhh maybe. I think the Fitch scenario was more of a case of Fitch being surprised that BJ is trying to take him down rather then its about BJs wrestling being that good. I think we will see Nick stuff a few take downs. As you said BJ has an edge in the clinch and i think if he does want to take the fight to the ground that clinching Nick and dragging him down is BJs better bet. He is better at that then he is at flat out shooting.


We will see. Should be fun.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

SideWays222 said:


> Daley is a much better striker then BJ imo.


Is that the joke of the day?


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> BJ is the better boxer but all around striker i think Daley wins pretty easily. With BJ he will have to worry about the takedown while with Daley he had to worry about kicks and elbows and knees. And to be fair BJ isnt exactly the best wrestler. I think he is actually one of the worse wrestlers in the WW division. Dont be surprised if Nick can stuff some takedown attempts and break BJs will. The aspect that BJ excels in is his TDD but i dont see that coming in to play here.


If you think Nick is gonna defend a TD your out of your mind. Penn was largely out wrestling Fitch in there last figh.



SideWays222 said:


> Ehhh maybe. I think the Fitch scenario was more of a case of Fitch being surprised that BJ is trying to take him down rather then its about BJs wrestling being that good. I think we will see Nick stuff a few take downs. As you said BJ has an edge in the clinch and i think if he does want to take the fight to the ground that clinching Nick and dragging him down is BJs better bet. He is better at that then he is at flat out shooting.


Your right it must have been surprising for Fitch that BJ repeatedly took him down. The first one you could argue Fitch never saw coming but after that the logic goes out the window. Fitch is a high level wrestler who trains in a gym full of some of the best wrestlers in the sport so Fitch was ready and capable of wrestling, BJ was simply that good.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

Fitch has suspect TDD; Diaz has zero wrestling ability.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

Wouldn't it be crazy with all this talk of stand up that Penn takes Nick down and it becomes a awesome grappling based fight? This has all the dynamics of being FOTY, strong chins, pure breed fighters, excellent stand up, excellent grappling, no wrestling via lay and pray, killer instinct...I just creamed my pants


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> If you think Nick is gonna defend a TD your out of your mind. Penn was largely out wrestling Fitch in there last figh.
> 
> Your right it must have been surprising for Fitch that BJ repeatedly took him down. The first one you could argue Fitch never saw coming but after that the logic goes out the window. Fitch is a high level wrestler who trains in a gym full of some of the best wrestlers in the sport so Fitch was ready and capable of wrestling, BJ was simply that good.


Im definitely not out of my mind. I kind of feel like you are trying to bait me. I would love to discuss this with you but not with that type of vibe. Those discussions never lead anywhere except to worse under handed insults and me getting infracted. 

So if you want to have a civil discussion then thats fine im all for it. If you want to call me crazy because i think BJ has a horrible shot and Nick can stuff it then im not that interested. I think BJ can take him down in the clinch but i think if he plans to shoot then yes Nick will stuff more then not.
So i guess yeah... im out of my mind. -_-

Normally i wouldnt care about your comment but im tired of being baited and then being made as the bad guy because i retort in the same manner.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

I am not trying to bait you into anything I am just baffled as to your logic and would like to hear further clarification as to how you can consider BJ a crap wrestler.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> I am not trying to bait you into anything I am just baffled as to your logic and would like to hear further clarification as to how you can consider BJ a crap wrestler.


The only time i have seen BJ show any kind of decent takedowns was during the Fitch fight. And it wasnt like he was super impressive there either. If i recall most of the time when he took Fitch down it was while they were against the cage. So i am admitting that BJ can take Nick down while agains the fence because BJ does have some good clinch work. On the other hand BJs shot has never ever been impressive. It is slow, predictable and not set up very well. BJ knows this and which is why you dont see him shoot very often. But i do think that Nick is going to do a decent job circling BJ and staying away from the cage. So if BJ wants to take it down he will have to shoot on Nick. And stuffing a slow predictable shot isnt as hard as you might think it is. So i predict Nick stuffing more shots then not.

Id like to go more into it but i have to go to work. Im already running behind because of this post.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> The only time i have seen BJ show any kind of decent takedowns was during the Fitch fight. And it wasnt like he was super impressive there either. If i recall most of the time when he took Fitch down it was while they were against the cage. So i am admitting that BJ can take Nick down while agains the fence because BJ does have some good clinch work. On the other hand BJs shot has never ever been impressive. It is slow, predictable and not set up very well. BJ knows this and which is why you dont see him shoot very often. But i do think that Nick is going to do a decent job circling BJ and staying away from the cage. So if BJ wants to take it down he will have to shoot on Nick. And stuffing a slow predictable shot isnt as hard as you might think it is. So i predict Nick stuffing more shots then not.
> 
> Id like to go more into it but i have to go to work. Im already running behind because of this post.


I think your grasping at the fact BJ doesn't choose to take the fight down often and interpreting it as his inability. How often have we seen BJ stuffed when he tries for a TD? BJ has a career 64% TD rate which is better than guys like Hughes, Edgar,Maynard, Fitch or Kosheck. Despite the fact that Penn has faced great wrestlers like Edgar, Sherk, GSP, Hughes and GSP.


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## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> *The only time i have seen BJ show any kind of decent takedowns was during the Fitch fight.* And it wasnt like he was super impressive there either. If i recall most of the time when he took Fitch down it was while they were against the cage. So i am admitting that BJ can take Nick down while agains the fence because BJ does have some good clinch work. On the other hand BJs shot has never ever been impressive. It is slow, predictable and not set up very well. BJ knows this and which is why you dont see him shoot very often. But i do think that Nick is going to do a decent job circling BJ and staying away from the cage. So if BJ wants to take it down he will have to shoot on Nick. And stuffing a slow predictable shot isnt as hard as you might think it is. So i predict Nick stuffing more shots then not.
> 
> Id like to go more into it but i have to go to work. Im already running behind because of this post.


BJ Penn vs Frankie Edgar 2
BJ Penn vs Takanori Gomi
BJ Penn vs Kenny Florian
BJ Penn vs Jens Pulver 2
BJ Penn vs Lyoto Machida (yes, BJ manages to take down Machida)
BJ Penn vs GSP 1 (BJ actually takes GSP down, albeit very briefly, but he still took him down)

All of the above are fights where BJ employs offensive wrestling and takes down his opponents with good technique. Watch them.


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## jonnyg4508 (Jan 30, 2010)

Mckeever said:


> BJ Penn vs Frankie Edgar 2
> BJ Penn vs Takanori Gomi
> BJ Penn vs Kenny Florian
> BJ Penn vs Jens Pulver 2
> ...


Sideways loses this thread badly.

Penn has shown multiple times that he is a solid wrestler. Defiantly solid enough to take Diaz down if he wanted too. Just because he has awesome stand up and doesn't choose TDs as his first option doesn't mean he can't.

If he can take Fitch down. Even if Fitch were blindfolded...then he can take Nick Diaz down...whoc realy has little to no TDD.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

This won't be competitive and also not FOTN but KO Of the Night.

Penn by **** first Round!!


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Nope, don't think because you picked a couple fights right your some kind of Messiah. Diaz has been left reeling by far worse fighters than Penn. Ask yourself one question who is the best fighter Diaz has ever beaten? Do you go with the old past his prime Shamrock?, Old ass Sakurai? Gomi? Who is the this great fighter that Diaz has beaten. Penn is on a completely different level than anybody that Diaz has ever fought.


Daley and he did it standing, take that toxic


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

UFC_OWNS said:


> Daley and he did it standing, take that toxic


Yeah so Daley has beaten Kampmann and other than that has not done a damn thing in MMA really. The same Paul Daley that could barely steal a win from a LW who wouldn't have even been on most top 20's Jorge Masdival? Daley is not elite, Daley just looks great smashing shit fighters. BJ would pummel Daley until he cried and he would do it without stumbling all over the ring flopping around like a chicken with its head chopped off. Diaz barely survived against a one dimensional scrub. How is that supposed to convince me he has a chance with one of the greatest of all time.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Toxic said:


> Yeah so Daley has beaten Kampmann and other than that has not done a damn thing in MMA really. The same Paul Daley that could barely steal a win from a LW who wouldn't have even been on most top 20's Jorge Masdival? Daley is not elite, Daley just looks great smashing shit fighters. BJ would pummel Daley until he cried and he would do it without stumbling all over the ring flopping around like a chicken with its head chopped off. Diaz barely survived against a one dimensional scrub. How is that supposed to convince me he has a chance with one of the greatest of all time.


Oh you naive fool, you said the same thing before the daley fight, and you said similar things about hunt and ellenburger.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)




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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

UFC_OWNS said:


> Oh you naive fool, you said the same thing before the daley fight, and you said similar things about hunt and ellenburger.


I see, you must be right because you have never ever been wrong when predicting a fight right? Glad you can hang on to the ones I was wrong about though. :thumbsup:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Toxic said:


> I see, you must be right because you have never ever been wrong when predicting a fight right? Glad you can hang on to the ones I was wrong about though. :thumbsup:


Cmon Toxic you can do better than that


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## M.C (Jul 5, 2008)

I completely disagree.

BJ as the advantage in every aspect of this fight, from boxing to chin, to grappling, wrestling, to general all around fighting skill.

There's nothing that threatens Penn in this fight except for cardio, and this is only a 3 round fight, and unlike someone with the size/strength/wrestling that GSP or Fitch has, Diaz doesn't have anything to Gas Penn out with.

Penn is going to roll over Diaz and move on.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

M.C said:


> There's nothing that threatens Penn in this fight except for cardio, and this is only a 3 round fight, and unlike someone with the size/strength/wrestling that GSP or Fitch has, Diaz doesn't have anything to Gas Penn out with.


There's one thing I can think of but it's a bit of a long shot. Diaz like to throw punches to the body when he gets his opponent up against the fence, if he can somehow get BJ trapped on the fence and throw a ton of punches to the body he can gas him out that way. But like I said, the odds of that happening aren't good at all.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

aerius said:


> There's one thing I can think of but it's a bit of a long shot. Diaz like to throw punches to the body when he gets his opponent up against the fence, if he can somehow get BJ trapped on the fence and throw a ton of punches to the body he can gas him out that way. But like I said, the odds of that happening aren't good at all.


Diaz could likely do that with body shots and I fully well think he will try to implement that as a gameplan. Unfortunately for Diaz I think the second BJ feels even slightly concerned about the body shots BJ will drop him on his back.


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> I think your grasping at the fact BJ doesn't choose to take the fight down often and interpreting it as his inability. How often have we seen BJ stuffed when he tries for a TD? BJ has a career 64% TD rate which is better than guys like Hughes, Edgar,Maynard, Fitch or Kosheck. Despite the fact that Penn has faced great wrestlers like Edgar, Sherk, GSP, Hughes and GSP.


And how much of that % comes from shots?? I imagine a pretty low number.




Mckeever said:


> BJ Penn vs Frankie Edgar 2
> BJ Penn vs Takanori Gomi
> BJ Penn vs Kenny Florian
> BJ Penn vs Jens Pulver 2
> ...


If BJs shots have impressed you in ANY of those fights then you simply dont know jack sht about wrestling.




jonnyg4508 said:


> Sideways loses this thread badly.
> 
> Penn has shown multiple times that he is a solid wrestler. Defiantly solid enough to take Diaz down if he wanted too. Just because he has awesome stand up and doesn't choose TDs as his first option doesn't mean he can't.
> 
> If he can take Fitch down. Even if Fitch were blindfolded...then he can take Nick Diaz down...whoc realy has little to no TDD.


I dont lose until the fight ends. Then il come back in here and either say i told you so or il admit i was wrong. That is all there is to it.


----------



## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

@SideWays222: BJ has not shot like GSP or any other very explosive wrestler. But he is able to take ppl down with very good chance and thats a fact. I couldnt care less if does it with shot, trip, suplex or whatever. He just can and he has very good wrestling.

@Topic:
This is amazing fight. I think there is chance that BJ totally dominates Diaz. What Im looking forward to how BJ will handle unorthodox boxing style of Diaz. This will be the key.

BJ had huge problem adapt to Frankie´s in and out boxings. Diaz has constant pressure style which IMHO BJ will handle pretty well.


----------



## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Atilak said:


> BJ had huge problem adapt to Frankie´s in and out boxings. Diaz has constant pressure style which IMHO BJ will handle pretty well.


Plus, Nick moves as slow as an oversized HW, Frankie moves like a Flyweight.

BJ will have the Speed, the Boxing, the Power, The accurace, The Footwork.. and on, and on, and on..


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Atilak said:


> @SideWays222: BJ has not shot like GSP or any other very explosive wrestler. But he is able to take ppl down with very good chance and thats a fact. I couldnt care less if does it with shot, trip, suplex or whatever. He just can and he has very good wrestling.
> 
> @Topic:
> This is amazing fight. I think there is chance that BJ totally dominates Diaz. What Im looking forward to how BJ will handle unorthodox boxing style of Diaz. This will be the key.
> ...




Please read all my posts before you speak on my point of view. I have admitted to BJ being able to take people down against the fence. But that isnt really wrestling anymore, how many cages have you seen in a wrestling match?? That is more grappling based takedowns then wrestling takedowns. But TBH that doesnt even matter, its a mute point. My real point is that BJ does not have good shots and thats that. The reason i think that will come in to play is because i see Diaz being able to keep BJ at bay with his striking and not allow BJ to close the distance. So i see shooting being his primary weapon in taking the fight to the ground but as i said before i think BJs shot is a bit lacking. Thus i expect Diaz to be able to stuff more shots then not.


Thats my opinion and until the fight happens we really wont know who is right. But i do know that the people saying that BJ has this amazing wrestling ability, they dont know what wrestling is and they definitely dont know the difference between a shot or trip or drag takedown. Because no matter how clear i make it that i im talking about BJs ability to shoot, they for some reason bring these takedown statistics as if that is based on shots only. It down right makes discussions useless because i feel like im talking to someone that just wont ever get it.


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## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

So you just playing with terms  Your points are irrelevant because BJ just dont freaking need to have great shot to take Diaz down. IF he decide to take him down. He just need to implement his style of "wrestling".

FTR I call dont care of sport of wrestling. I just talk about MMA wrestling. And that is for me - ability to take someone down or defend a takedown. To be honest when someone is draged down I will just feel it that he doesnt have MMA wrestling ability to defend it.

I thought that is pretty normal that when we talk about BJ Penns wrestling we dont disscuss how he will do on the wrestling mat.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Atilak said:


> *So you just playing with terms  Your points are irrelevant because BJ just dont freaking need to have great shot to take Diaz down. IF he decide to take him down. He just need to implement his style of "wrestling".
> *
> FTR I call dont care of sport of wrestling. I just talk about MMA wrestling. And that is for me - ability to take someone down or defend a takedown. To be honest when someone is draged down I will just feel it that he doesnt have MMA wrestling ability to defend it.
> 
> I thought that is pretty normal that when we talk about BJ Penns wrestling we dont disscuss how he will do on the wrestling mat.


I already explained why i believe having a good shot will play a role in BJ being able to take Diaz down. So it is YOUR points that are irrelevant.

Well im not going to be like you so il change my post and say that neither of our posts are irrelevant. 
Its just a different argument that your post addresses. Its not so much of how good BJs shots are or how good his grappling ability against the fence is but more of will he be able to implement those skills in the fight. As iv stated in my previous posts i think BJ will not be able to use his fence clinch work to take the fight down. I can tell from your post that you think he will be able to put Diaz against the fence and drag him down.
Which is a fine opinion to have. We will see when the fight happens about who is correct. (Would have been an easier discussion if you just simply read all my posts)

Im not playing with terms as much as it is that i have wrestled for over 4 years and i think about it in a more technical sense then most people do.
Lol wrestling mat??? Trust me... if i was talking about BJs ability on a wrestling mat then i would give him absolutely no credit. He would get tore up in a wrestling match by even the below average wrestlers out there.
So you are correct in your thought that we are not discussing his ability on the wrestling mat.


----------



## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

Sideways very good last post. We both have slightly diffenrent views on this. And that is perfectly ok. I now understand your view on term wrestling better :thumbsup:

An about the fight: Im not sure with BJ. You never know.

IMHO The best gameplan is to stand with Diaz. If for some reason being uncomfortable there try to put Diaz on his back and test his JJ.

Its seem very simple but with BJ you never know.

I have hard time seeing Diaz try to put BJ on his back. So he will very likely stand and bang.


----------



## Mckeever (Apr 26, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> And how much of that % comes from shots?? I imagine a pretty low number.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


His wrestling shot in the Takanori Gomi fight in particular was out standing.






4.15 minutes in.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Diaz can't even spell the word defense..let alone Wrestling lol :laugh:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> Diaz can't even spell the word defense..let alone Wrestling lol :laugh:


lyoto can't even spell the phrase "beat shogun" :laugh:


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> Diaz can't even spell the word defense..let alone Wrestling lol :laugh:





UFC_OWNS said:


> lyoto can't even spell the phrase "beat shogun" :laugh:


just like old times :hug:



This could be a great fight. :thumb02:


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## Pound&Mound (Dec 10, 2007)

LOL what's funny is Diaz probably can't spell defense and Lyoto probably can't spell beat shogun hahahaaha


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

LOL what's funny is that he already did 

Btw he will be on top of the world again soon hihi


So you better start crying now ^_^*


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> LOL what's funny is that he already did
> 
> Btw he will be on top of the world again soon hihi
> 
> ...


Sure he beat him.... if by beat you mean rig the judges into making the scorecards up before the fight started. Losing 4-1 in rounds doesn't sound like a win to me. Hey didn't you say wand was going to beat leben? well for the first 10 seconds it looked like it was coming true but in the next 10 it was completely wrong, oh and rampage beat lyoto too.


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

Both of you need to stop baiting and stay on topic - thank you


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

It's not baiting if you're right


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

It is when you say Lyoto rigged the judges score cards against Shogun in a BJ Penn thread. Keep on topic guys.

Or take it to PM's if you want to discuss which fighter is better  

Really don't get the 'BJ lacks wrestling' opinion. He may not have elite level wrestling, but he sure as hell is up there among the best at WW. Wrestling isn't all shooting in, but even BJs shot is above decent. Being outwrestled by GSP isn't exactly something to be ashamed of. 

Just don't see Penn losing this fight at all.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

I watched penn-GSP II the other day and I still have to say after all these years god damn BJ has great balance, which makes Edgars handling of BJ even more impressive.


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## Bknmax (Mar 16, 2008)

Penn will be able to control Diaz on the ground might not submit him but won't have trouble maintaining the top position and delivering some gnp.It's difficult as hell to predict how the standup will go and if Diaz will try to taunt Penn.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> Im not playing with terms as much as it is that i have wrestled for over 4 years and i think about it in a more technical sense then most people do.
> Lol wrestling mat??? Trust me... if i was talking about BJs ability on a wrestling mat then i would give him absolutely no credit. He would get tore up in a wrestling match by even the below average wrestlers out there.
> So you are correct in your thought that we are not discussing his ability on the wrestling mat.


You know BJ wrestled in college and had a decent record despite never having wrestled in high school right? (He was home schooled). Considering BJ has worked extensively on wrestling since then with Olympic level guys like Matt Lindland and Randy Couture. Its a safe bet I would think to say he may not be able to handle a guy like Josh Kosheck or Jon Fitch on a wrestling mat but he could hold his own with most in MMA. Technique is always important in anything in life but life isn't fair to anyone and some people just have more natural born tools. In BJJ BJ had a unique dexterity in his legs that has granted him great success and in wrestling his unnatural balance is sure to be a huge benefit, somethings you can't teach.


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> You know BJ wrestled in college and had a decent record despite never having wrestled in high school right? (He was home schooled). Considering BJ has worked extensively on wrestling since then with Olympic level guys like Matt Lindland and Randy Couture. Its a safe bet I would think to say he may not be able to handle a guy like Josh Kosheck or Jon Fitch on a wrestling mat but he could hold his own with most in MMA. Technique is always important in anything in life but life isn't fair to anyone and some people just have more natural born tools. In BJJ BJ had a unique dexterity in his legs that has granted him great success and in wrestling his unnatural balance is sure to be a huge benefit, somethings you can't teach.


TBH i didnt know BJ wrestled in college and that almost blows my mind. How does a guy with such a bad work ethic even get on the wrestling team??? Thats insane to me. But does not change the fact that its been a long time since he has been in college and if he went back he would do worse and not better. MMA wrestling is NOTHING like amateur wrestling. He probably picked up more bad habits then he knows what to do with.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

Bad work ethic? Really? I think you buy the hype a little to much a guy does not win the Mundials and become a multi division UFC champ because of a bad work ethic.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> Bad work ethic? Really? I think you buy the hype a little to much a guy does not win the Mundials and become a multi division UFC champ because of a bad work ethic.


You are right.

He won it on natural talent.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> You are right.
> 
> He won it on natural talent.


We'll have to agree to disagree, if you actually read back on it all you would realize that BJ is actually somewhat obsessive about things, when he started studying BJJ he went all over trying to learn it all and was incredibly dedicated to it. Its certain that natural talent comes into play but natural talent alone does not carry anybody to those kinda of accomplishments.


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree, if you actually read back on it all you would realize that BJ is actually somewhat obsessive about things, when he started studying BJJ he went all over trying to learn it all and was incredibly dedicated to it. Its certain that natural talent comes into play but natural talent alone does not carry anybody to those kinda of accomplishments.


Im talking about work ethic in his physical ability. I know he loved BJJ and worked hard at it. But that isnt what i was talking about when i said work ethic.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> You are right.
> 
> He won it on natural talent.


Haha what? Do you think he fell out of the womb and RNCed the doctor? 

You can have a superior aptitude for BJJ but that is mostly a mental skill for deconstructing and reconstructing; you still have to train hard. You can love training something like boxing, wrestling, or BJJ and hate strength and conditioning training and dieting. I think most fighters probably enjoy sparring, rolling, and learning technique way more those are communal exercises and are more mentally stimulating.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

osmium said:


> Haha what? Do you think he fell out of the womb and RNCed the doctor?
> 
> You can have a superior aptitude for BJJ but that is mostly a mental skill for deconstructing and reconstructing; you still have to train hard. You can love training something like boxing, wrestling, or BJJ and hate strength and conditioning training and dieting. I think most fighters probably enjoy sparring, rolling, and learning technique way more those are communal exercises and are more mentally stimulating.


did u even read the post above you??? 

Why do people that read 1 post involve themselves in something that they know nothing about.


If you think BJ trains as hard as other fighters do then your wrong. His one Achilles heel has been his work ethic and has been for a long time. The guy used to not go past 2 rounds without gassing and he isnt a big guy. He trains harder now when he used to but that doesnt change his past.

I think some people around here dont know enough about mma to know what bj was like back in the day.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> did u even read the post above you???
> 
> Why do people that read 1 post involve themselves in something that they know nothing about.
> 
> ...


You obviously posted that right after I started writing my response.

I 100% believe BJ trains technique even harder than most other fighters. Great technique isn't a natural ability.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

osmium said:


> You obviously posted that right after I started writing my response.
> 
> I 100% believe BJ trains technique even harder than most other fighters. Great technique isn't a natural ability.


Technique yeah maybe. But what i was referring to was his work ethic in his physical ability. I made that extremely clear. Im sick of people reading 1 post and then arguing something completely bullocks.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> If you think BJ trains as hard as other fighters do then your wrong. His one Achilles heel has been his work ethic and has been for a long time. The guy used to not go past 2 rounds without gassing and he isnt a big guy. He trains harder now when he used to but that doesnt change his past.
> 
> I think some people around here dont know enough about mma to know what bj was like back in the day.


I think some people view it wrong. While some of BJ's early fights he gassed it you also need to remember that we weren't looking at the same level of athlete in the early days. If were talking about his time at WW against GSP and Hughes then the fact BJ isn't a big guy is exactly why he had such problems. You said earlier you wrestled so it should be obvious to you from practice that wrestling with somebody much larger than you is far more physically draining then doing so with somebody your own size and strength.

EDIT: To kinda elaborate, I think he always was is in as good of shape as those in similar levels in the division but his own physical inefficiencies at WW were not compensated for.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> I think some people view it wrong. While some of BJ's early fights he gassed it you also need to remember that we weren't looking at the same level of athlete in the early days. If were talking about his time at WW against GSP and Hughes then the fact BJ isn't a big guy is exactly why he had such problems. You said earlier you wrestled so it should be obvious to you from practice that wrestling with somebody much larger than you is far more physically draining then doing so with somebody your own size and strength.


You are correct it is. But it was obvious that BJ was not working on hys physical ability like he could. You should remember a few years back that it was scary obvious that BJs one weakness was not training hard enough for fights. He has matured and works much harder now and that i wont deny. But i dont know how we are going to just ignore even a few years ago and say BJ has always trained really hard?? its absurd.


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## osmium (Mar 6, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> Technique yeah maybe. But what i was referring to was his work ethic in his physical ability. I made that extremely clear. Im sick of people reading 1 post and then arguing something completely bullocks.


You train technique and situational fighting a lot more than strength and conditioning as a fighter. So I think he has a great work ethic for the majority of his work. I also think his dieting was much more so the problem when he was younger.


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## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> You are correct it is. But it was obvious that BJ was not working on hys physical ability like he could. You should remember a few years back that it was scary obvious that BJs one weakness was not training hard enough for fights. He has matured and works much harder now and that i wont deny. But i dont know how we are going to just ignore even a few years ago and say BJ has always trained really hard?? its absurd.


BJ has said he trains better now and brought in professionals to help him improve his conditioning. I think there is a big difference though at the elite level. He isn't training harder just smarter. Its the same work ethic there is just more science in the way he exercises.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> BJ has said he trains better now and brought in professionals to help him improve his conditioning. I think there is a big difference though at the elite level. He isn't training harder just smarter. Its the same work ethic there is just more science in the way he exercises.


Well i guess we shall agree to disagree on this. :hug:


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## Sauce1 (Aug 5, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Bad work ethic? Really? I think you buy the hype a little to much a guy does not win the Mundials and become a multi division UFC champ because of a bad work ethic.


Truth. If anyone believe that BJ is riding on purely natural talent to achieve what he has achieved. Well, you are just wrong. At the level that these guys are at, they need to have high work ethic regarding training, diet, healthy living, etc. Some folks are really brainwashed by these tv shows and blogs.


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

I would have might even give Diaz a punchers chance here.. if he wouldn't fight one of the fastest guys in the World and didn't move like an oversized HW :laugh:


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## Buakaw_GSP (Jan 9, 2011)

Really like the mind games here. When the fights got switched to GSP/Condit and Penn/Diaz, GSP mentions in the press conference that Condit is a more dangerous opponent than Nick Diaz. Cesar Gracie shoots back in saying that Penn is a more dangerous opponent than GSP. Then GSP mentions that Penn is the better fighter than Nick Diaz and thinks he will win. Diaz now says that Penn is a better fighter than GSP. 

Gotta love the playground tactics.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Sauce1 said:


> Truth. If anyone believe that BJ is riding on purely natural talent to achieve what he has achieved. Well, you are just wrong. At the level that these guys are at, they need to have high work ethic regarding training, diet, healthy living, etc. Some folks are really brainwashed by these tv shows and blogs.


Except for the fact that back in the day just about everyone questioned BJs work ethic when it came to physical shape. You are correct.

Some folks just havent been watching MMA for as long as others. :thumb02:


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## Sauce1 (Aug 5, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> Except for the fact that back in the day just about everyone questioned BJs work ethic when it came to physical shape. You are correct.
> 
> Some folks just havent been watching MMA for as long as others. :thumb02:


Good to know that you know what 'everyone' is thinking regarding a fighter’s physical shape. 

BJ has moved up and down weight classes throughout the duration of his entire career. How many fighters can claim to have competed against the elite (Gomi, Edgar, Hughes, GSP, Gracie's, Machida, etc.)? That is four different weight classes and it takes dam good work ethic to compete at those different levels. None of us are in the gym with them or know what they are doing 24/7. I let the talking happen when the cage door closes. Penn has shown to compete at a high level and has only gassed on rare occasions when he was smothered by much larger wrestlers. You cannot generalize the GSP/Penn 2 fight to his entire career.


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## oldfan (Mar 14, 2010)

Of Bj's 7 losses, 4 were because of his cardio in my opinion.

he has admitted publicly more than once that he used to try to get by on his talent. 

argue about something else.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Sauce1 said:


> Good to know that you know what 'everyone' is thinking regarding a fighter’s physical shape.
> 
> BJ has moved up and down weight classes throughout the duration of his entire career. How many fighters can claim to have competed against the elite (Gomi, Edgar, Hughes, GSP, Gracie's, Machida, etc.)? That is four different weight classes and it takes dam good work ethic to compete at those different levels. None of us are in the gym with them or know what they are doing 24/7. I let the talking happen when the cage door closes. Penn has shown to compete at a high level and has only gassed on rare occasions when he was smothered by much larger wrestlers. You cannot generalize the GSP/Penn 2 fight to his entire career.



I am talking about fights way before penn vs gsp 2.

Well seeing as how it was a known fact that BJ didnt train as hard as some other fighters did (And thats when people didnt train as hard as they do today). I guess saying "everyone" isnt a big stretch.

Anyway this isnt a big deal. I know that i am right and BJs lack of training for his physical body was a well known fact.

If people have not been watching MMA for that long and only know BJ post the gsp fight then so be it. No point in arguing with people.

BTW
BJ moving up weight classes by eating a ton of cheese burgers (kidding) isnt exactly what i ment by good work ethic lol.



oldfan said:


> Of Bj's 7 losses, 4 were because of his cardio in my opinion.
> 
> he has admitted publicly more than once that he used to try to get by on his talent.
> 
> argue about something else.




Pretty much this.


----------



## Sauce1 (Aug 5, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> I am talking about fights way before penn vs gsp 2.
> 
> Well seeing as how it was a known fact that BJ didnt train as hard as some other fighters did (And thats when people didnt train as hard as they do today). I guess saying "everyone" isnt a big stretch.
> 
> ...






I find it ignorant and arrogant to make blanket comments and speak on opinion as a 'fact'. It does not make your argument stronger and actually discredits it. 

I have followed Penn's entire career and on countless occasions have noticed that the GSP/Penn 2 fight was used as a reason for why he is lazy, does not train, etc. Some of the same reasons were given after the Hughes/Penn 2 fight. However, what people forget to mention was that Penn was injured in that fight and that played a significant role in his loss. If you really think eating burgers and gaining excessive fat was his physical training routine, well I would suggest re-watching both Penn/GSP 1 and Penn/Hughes 1.


----------



## Toxic (Mar 1, 2007)

oldfan said:


> Of Bj's 7 losses, 4 were because of his cardio in my opinion.
> 
> he has admitted publicly more than once that he used to try to get by on his talent.
> 
> argue about something else.


BJ has said he got by a lot on his talent and that he wasn't doing the right things, he has even gone in depth and admitted that it was never that he never trained hard enough but for a large part he left AKA in its early days and has really secluded himself on the island so he hasn't been up to date with the conditioning techniques others used and largely spend much of his career just trying different stuff and trying to see what worked for him. He said for the 1st Pulver fight for example that in an attempt to "peak" at the right time he trained for one 5 minute round 5 weeks out, 4 weeks out he went to two 5 minute rounds and so on so only on the last week he was training for 5, 5 minute rounds. He said he suffered horribly because of it but he really didn't understand conditioning. There is a huge difference between doing the wrong things and being lazy. Many fighters have said in great length that boxing conditioning won't prepare you for grappling and grappling for boxing. BJ was simply not working with people with the right knowledge.


----------



## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Sauce1 said:


> I find it ignorant and arrogant to make blanket comments and speak on opinion as a 'fact'. It does not make your argument stronger and actually discredits it.
> 
> I have followed Penn's entire career and on countless occasions have noticed that the GSP/Penn 2 fight was used as a reason for why he is lazy, does not train, etc. Some of the same reasons were given after the Hughes/Penn 2 fight. However, what people forget to mention was that Penn was injured in that fight and that played a significant role in his loss. If you really think eating burgers and gaining excessive fat was his physical training routine, well I would suggest re-watching both Penn/GSP 1 and Penn/Hughes 1.




Ok basically what it comes down to is that I KNOW for a fact that BJ a few years back was not training as hard as his competitors. But because he is extremely talented he was able to make up for it and still be very competitive.

And you... Dont know this.

That is really all there is to it.

As for BJ going up to face Machida, he definitely was not busting his ass to get up there and do it right. He digested a SHIT load of calories in order to gain sloppy weight (He has commented on this himself).

Thats where the eating burgers joke came from. I even said it was a joke. But tbh i wouldnt be surprised if he scarfed a few burgers down in order to put on the weight.

You definitely took the statement out of context and totally twisted it for your own gain.

All the best bud.


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## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

Pretty much what Toxic said.

I think that statement that BJ lack work ethic is wrong. I think he always trained hard but not always smart.
This is HUGE! difference. 

You can train hard as you can but when you doing it wrong you will look in fight like you are not training hard. Thats what you do. You judge his work ethic by result - result:bad condition in fight. We all agree that conditioning was his weakness. But not as a result of bad work ethic but lack of knowledge and proper training.

I think because of non existent PED´s in his preparation he was overtraining as hell. Some people dont realize the difference when you trying to achieve elite naturally.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Atilak said:


> Pretty much what Toxic said.
> 
> I think that statement that BJ lack work ethic is wrong. I think he always trained hard but not always smart.
> This is HUGE! difference.
> ...


Iv only wrestled for over 4 years and i currently train at one of the best gyms in the world known as American Kickboxing Academy. 

Yeah i have no clue the difference between smart and hard training. 

But ofcourse you do??

Ok... sometimes i guess you just wont agree with someone else.


----------



## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

Ok so you know the difference.

So there is chance that BJ just did what I said. Trained hard but not smart, right?

So good work ethic but bad training methods.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Atilak said:


> Ok so you know the difference.
> 
> So there is chance that BJ just did what I said. Trained hard but not smart, right?
> 
> So good work ethic but bad training methods.


But the thing is that 4,5 Years ago people were not training like they are now. Yet most of the competitors still showed much better conditioning and strength then BJ has. The training was not nearly as scientific as it is today. So to say that BJs lack of conditioning and everything else is due to him not training "Smart" is just in some sense naive. If he worked as hard as everyone else was then he would have been a better physical specimen then he was UNLESS he was truly training like a dumba**. But even your average person knows how to train at-least decently and if you add a UFC level work ethic then no matter what BJs body should have been able to perform better then it did.
So what i am trying to say is that if BJ Penn trained physically as hard as the rest of the fighters then even if he wasnt training as smart as he is today he still would have been doing better then he was. It wasnt too long ago that you were not sure if BJ was going to gas in the second round or if he was going to be able to finish his opponent in the first.

BJ *Himself* has said before that he tries to finish his opponents in the first round because it scared him to go in to the later rounds since he knows he didnt have the cardio to last. He *Himself* has stated that he used to rely on talent and not hard work. 
So at a time when none of it was as scientific as it is today, BJ should have had no problem keeping up with everyone else based on sheer hard work alone.

He has been around professional athletes all his life. For you to believe that he did not know how to train properly is just im sorry but the idea is down right ridiculous.


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## Atilak (Nov 24, 2009)

Ok I just think that is not that simple. We have different opinions on that.

Crazy Bob should know it better. You can ask him :thumb02:


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Bj by **** first round!!

It ain't no rocket science lol


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## K R Y (Nov 19, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> BJ *Himself* has said before that he tries to finish his opponents in the first round because it scared him to go in to the later rounds since he knows he didnt have the cardio to last.


Can you link me to this? I've never once read anything anywhere, or watched any BJ interview where he has said he tries to finish early due to being scared of the later rounds.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> Bj by **** first round!!


Your input to the thread is Worthle.... i mean Priceless!!

:hug:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> Bj by **** first round!!
> 
> It ain't no rocket science lol


Didn't you say that about wandy beating leben? lol leave the betting and tips to me


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

K R Y said:


> Can you link me to this? I've never once read anything anywhere, or watched any BJ interview where he has said he tries to finish early due to being scared of the later rounds.


I tried looking for it but couldnt find it. It was in a video so i am having a hard time finding it just by quoting some of the text. I am fairly certain it was in the GSP vs BJ REmatch era so if your interested in finding it id start looking for some footage around that time. It was a video hyping the fight by him comparing the difference of the old BJ and how much better he is now and that GSP should be worried. (Typical hype stuff).

its almost 3am so i am planning to catch some z's right now but il spend some time searching for it tomorrow and see if i can come across it.


"EDIT"

And every freaking time i try looking for it all the results are the crappy Nick-BJ lets make it 5 rounds article.

grrrr


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> Your input to the thread is Worthle.... i mean Priceless!!
> 
> :hug:


Well I don't talk myself into something here lol

Not that I've read even one of your posts lolz


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

BobbyCooper said:


> Well I don't talk myself into something here lol
> 
> Not that I've read even one of your posts lolz


If your boy wins via actual **** then i shall worship you from now until i slit my own throat for worshiping you. hah


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

SideWays222 said:


> If your boy wins via actual **** then i shall worship you from now until i slit my own throat for worshiping you. hah


Like I said man lol it ain't no rocket science :laugh:


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

BobbyCooper said:


> Like I said man lol it ain't no rocket science :laugh:


Didn't you also say Takanoori Gomi and Yamamoto would be top 5 in the UFC? didn't work either bob stick to predicting soccer maybe let the smart ones set the odds and winners.


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

UFC_OWNS said:


> Didn't you also say Takanoori Gomi and Yamamoto would be top 5 in the UFC? didn't work either bob stick to predicting soccer maybe let the smart ones set the odds and winners.


"If Daley doesn't beat Diaz then I don't know ANYTHING about MMA"


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

You can't beat luck!!

Too bad the ref didn't sto when Diaz was out laying face down on the mat lol


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

BobbyCooper said:


> You can't beat luck!!
> 
> Too bad the ref didn't sto when Diaz was out laying face down on the mat lol


The irony of a rabid Machida fan talking about luck yet insisting Machida won the first Shogun fight :confused05:


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## BobbyCooper (Oct 26, 2009)

Soakked said:


> The irony of a rabid Machida fan talking about luck yet insisting Machida won the first Shogun fight :confused05:


well, the truth is that Lyoto won against Shogun and Rampage and now is going to fulfill his dream ones again :hug:


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## Budhisten (Apr 11, 2010)

Please keep this thread on topic gentlemen - Your quick little jabs at each other will quickly turn into insults which means infractions - and I don't want to infract you guys


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

khoveraki said:


> "If Daley doesn't beat Diaz then I don't know ANYTHING about MMA"


Yep I remember that, it amazes me the delusion of him, he wants to claim rampage lost to machida when he clearly didn't since lyoto did nothing rounds 1 and 2 and he actually thinks lyoto beat shogun in the first fight LOL. Machida should be 15-3, hell in the BJ fight Lyoto nearly lost that too.


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## DragonStriker (Feb 11, 2009)

Wow evenly matched picks should be an amazing fight hopefully.


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Toxic said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree, if you actually read back on it all you would realize that BJ is actually somewhat obsessive about things, when he started studying BJJ he went all over trying to learn it all and was incredibly dedicated to it. Its certain that natural talent comes into play but natural talent alone does not carry anybody to those kinda of accomplishments.





Atilak said:


> Pretty much what Toxic said.
> 
> I think that statement that BJ lack work ethic is wrong. I think he always trained hard but not always smart.
> This is HUGE! difference.
> ...


I hope you guys can give me some credit now.

Everything i said was just about spot on.


- BJ doesnt throw alot of shots.
- Nick Diaz will stuff more shots then not.
- Nick will keep him at bay with his reach.
- BJ doesnt have the greatest work ethic especially at WW and he will gas.
- Nick takes a UD in a 3 round fight. And would get the TKO in a 5 rounder.


I said i will come back in here after the fight and if i was wrong i would admit it and eat crow. But lucky enough im not here doing that right now. :thumbsup:


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## khoveraki (Jun 28, 2009)

Nice call sideways. Can't BELIEVE how gassed Penn got again. Seriously wtf.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> - Nick takes a UD in a 3 round fight. And would get the TKO in a 5 rounder.


How does Nick get TKOed in a 5 round fight? Who was the more damaged fighter and who was the fresher fighter? Who had momentum. You mean BJ would have gotten KO in a 5 round fight with Diaz.






khoveraki said:


> Nice call sideways. Can't BELIEVE how gassed Penn got again. Seriously wtf.


Ummm sideways wasn't the only one that called it and actually they were a few that called it before him....just saying.


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## UFC_OWNS (Jul 7, 2010)

Like yours truly who made bets with 2 mods for all my creds that he would win... just sayin


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## SideWays222 (Sep 9, 2008)

Soakked said:


> *How does Nick get TKOed in a 5 round fight? Who was the more damaged fighter and who was the fresher fighter? Who had momentum. You mean BJ would have gotten KO in a 5 round fight with Diaz.
> *
> 
> 
> ...


would GET the TKO not would get tko'd. 

As in he would get the tko victory in a 5 round fight. lol

Chill bud.


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## aerius (Nov 19, 2006)

Well, I was definitely right about the body shots up against the fence, but totally missed the call on how successful Diaz would be with them. I figured he might be able to get BJ on the fence once or twice and get a few shots in, I didn't think he could do it over & over again and hit him with a hundred punches to the body.


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## Soakked (Feb 5, 2007)

SideWays222 said:


> would GET the TKO not would get tko'd.
> 
> As in he would get the tko victory in a 5 round fight. lol
> 
> Chill bud.


My fail at reading comprehension, I agree. Sorry still pissed at missing the majority of the fight and only being able to hear rogan screaming "he's hurt he's hurt, Nick hurt Bj" in a screen full of pop up ads blocking the actual fight. Man I need to get cable fast this streaming crap isn't working.


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